Coercive Control, the Invisible Basis of Abuse | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

[Music]. welcome to stuff you should know a. production of iHeart. Radio hey and welcome to the podcast I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here. too and this is stuff you should know. the. podcast that's right uh big trigger. warning just straight from the jump. here because this is about a um a form. of domestic violence uh more.

specifically intimate partner violence. MH and it's a tough one. so trigger. warning yeah the reason that it's worth. specifying the difference between. domestic violence and intimate partner. violence is that um domestic violence. like you could have a a kid who beats up. a parent that's still domestic violence. intimate partner violence is. specifically between two people um same. sex different sex non-binary uh in a.

relationship where one abuses the other. that's intimate partner violence and it. almost always includes actual physical. violence yeah or as we'll see where they. both abuse each other which. is not as typical obviously it may be a. myth as well we'll get to that later. okay yeah so um what we're talking about. is not just intimate partner violence or. domestic violence but a specific kind of. um.

of domestic abuse that for a while just. kind of seemed like its own thing but it. seems like as more and more research. gets built upon it um this thing that. we're going to talk about coercive. control is actually the basis for a lot. of the domestic violence or wife. battering that it was long called um. that it's actually what's actually going. on beneath the surface and that the. actual beatings and the actual rapes um. inside the home are symptoms or just the.

most obvious parts or factors in this. larger thing which is called coercive. control where one partner essentially. controls the other partner's life um and. that's generally what we're talking. about today yeah and the word coercion. um means you know persuasion through. threat so in this case coercive control. is controlling that partner uh generally. through through threat uh and then you. know we'll see there's a host of um sort.

of components to all this but uh actual. violence is almost always a part of it. not necessarily 100% always but um a lot. of times that violence is part of a like. you said like a larger plan to use the. threat of that violence for control. right or the violence itself for sure. yeah so our understanding of coercion in. general dates back to just after the. Korean war and I remember us discussing.

this in in um the brainwashing episode. yeah but there was a whole thing where. some PS appeared to be to turn. collaborators with the Chinese and. Korean um. captors uh and it was chocked up to. brainwashing that they had been. brainwashed which must mean that they. probably were pretty weak-minded to. begin with so give them a break and. there was a social scientist named. Albert bitterman who um was not.

satisfied by that answer and he started. studying what tactics the Korean and. Chinese um captors had used on the pows. to get them to seem to collaborate and. what he found was that they used tactics. that he came to kind of break out into. what constitutes coercion how somebody. could make someone act against their. will seemingly under their own will um. and without just using physical violence.

and he came up with a whole list of. stuff actually yeah and you know again. just to point out like his whole Jam was. this is not brainwashing right this is. something entirely different and I think. and I agree with him I think he thought. he was making it. more almost. uh e easier to believe because. brainwashing sounds so kind of out there. uh when you it kind of just conjures to. mind like people that literally don't.

have control of their mind anymore right. where he's like hey coercion can kind of. happen to anyone uh and and your because. your brain's not being Tak taken over. and like you said he came out with this. chart of. coercion uh and was like you know the. Chinese and Korean captur are doing this. it's not like uh in World War II with. Germany and uh Japan when actual. physical torture was you know sort of. the main component uh in this case and. again uh there is some violence but it's.

more these tactics and the threat of. violence that get someone under your. sort of spell in a way yeah because. threatening violence when you're violent. with somebody there's a there's an end. to it there's a point that the person. knows is going to it's going to come to. an end so now this thing that they've. been worried about is actually happening. and that means that the end is coming. soon too the threat of violence there is. no end into it it's always around the.

corner so it can generate like real. anxiety in ways that actual violence. can't yeah that's just part of it um. another part of it is. isolation um monopolization of. perception like keeping people in a room. with the lights on 24 hours a day um it. it it just has all sorts of weird. effects on people uh it also helps to. restrict information so they are. completely isolated and have no contact. or way to get in information from.

outside of their captivity those are. just a couple of them yeah uh the list. goes on with humiliation uh any kind of. degrading punishment um you know. stripping people naked no privacy uh not. allowed to take care of their bodies and. you know go to the bathroom in a in a. normal hygienic way or bathe themselves. to basically kind of turn people to into. animals and break them down uh so they. don't resist um exhaustion of course is.

one of them uh you know these long. interrogations you know limiting food. limiting sleep obviously so all of this. stuff is sort of working them hard all. of this stuff is going to weaken their. ability to uh resist the. coercion yeah and the one that gets me. the most is the most despicable of all. or occasional indulgences yeah I know. you're going to say that because not. only does. it it almost like creates like an. affinity for the cap in the in the mind.

of the P who's being mistreated suddenly. there's like this generosity that they. can latch on to and be like yes people. there is goodness still in the world but. the reason that they're doing that is. because it keeps you from getting used. to being mistreated man isn't that just. the most despicable thing you can. imagine yeah because what that says is. that a human being could potentially get. so used to that abuse uh Co coercive. abuse and physical abuse that they're. not not going to talk so throw them a.

bone every now and then and it just. shakes up their their mental sort of. processes so they don't get used to it. yeah and it makes all abuse after that. that much more effective. continuously uh there's also. demonstrating omnipotence which I would. guess just revealing information that. they wouldn't guess that you had would. be pretty shocking and would also make. you feel like well there's no no way to. hide anything from these people they. know everything and then another one was.

trivial rules did you see that one yeah. so I mean. that's I mean that can be just any. mundane thing like you you know uh you. answer after we knock this many times or. you approach the door in a certain way. just any kind of little trivial rule um. and again it's just about. control right and it creates a habit of. complying in the subject too right so um. if you put all this together bitman is.

widely considered to have essentially. identified the techniques of coercion. that anybody could use on anyone else. and in fact the US government apparently. um used bitterman's um tactics as a. playbook in at Guantanamo Bay I'm sure. elsewhere as well that we just don't. know about at the moment um and there. was also this kind of weird thread that. also came about a couple decades after. bitterman's research in the ' 50s. starting in the 70s the like the women's.

movement like we've talked about really. started to gain steam right and one of. the things that a huge Focus. was the plight of women who were. physically abused by their husbands. battered women that's what they called. them at the time back in the 70s and one. of the things that that Scholars. feminist scholars in particular at the. time noticed was that there were real. parallels between the tactics that bman. had identified of coercion used against.

PS in the Korean War and reports of how. women were treated in the home when they. were victims of domestic abuse and it. became clear that these coercion tactics. had kind of been adopted unconsciously. by men who abused their wives and that. in a very roundabout way for decades. later laid the groundwork for our idea. of coercive control yeah I mean I mean. you grew up you were a little younger.

than me but in the 70s and 80s the the. notion of you know like you said what. they call it the time the battered woman. uh the battered wife was a real it was. really on the radar um I remember when I. was a kid there were um there were. movies there was this it just scared the. the crap out of me not to get too. personal with my family but you know. I've talked a little bit before about. having a not so great childhood and that. just that the awareness of that and.

fighting in the house all combined to. just terrify me when I was a kid uh I. remember there was and I looked it up. today cuz I was like man I remember. there was a TV movie with the guy from. Mash that just terrified me and I looked. which guy from Mash uh Honeycut so I. looked it up it was an NBC TV movie. called battered and it was three sort of. stories uh Mike frell was one of them. like the nicest guy ever on Mash played.

an abusive husband and it just told each. of these stories and it was I remember. this coming on and it just like it was. it was awful for a young kid to watch. that while also sort of living in a. household of yelling and fighting and. stuff like that so it was just was a big. part of the the national landscape if. like a a kid is hearing about this stuff. all the time via TV movies uh another. one that came out was obviously The. Burning Bed which was is a big case that.

we're going to talk about now cuz it was. uh I mean the movie it was a landmark TV. movie but the the case that was based on. also a landmark case in a lot of. ways yeah one I'm really sorry that you. experienced that as a kid that's awful. oh thanks and two um yes The Burning Bed. was a huge huge deal it changed. everything like this was 1984 that the. TV movie came out I think the book came. out in 1980 and the whole thing was.

based on the experience of a woman who. throughout the 70s suffered tremendously. at the hands of her husband and then. ex-husband who continued to abuse her. even after they were divorced the the. woman's name was Francine Hughes her. husband and then ex-husband's name was. Mickey Hughes and um he did everything. like he beat her he raped her um he. controlled her um the story itself is is. actually you could do an entire episode. on it easily it was just so horrible.

that this happened and it so captured. the attention of America thanks to the. book and then to the TV movie it really. kind of helped move forward this. awareness of just how bad the lives of. battered women were because it was not a. secret that there were women who were. beaten by their husbands in America um I. think it was outlawed in the United. States first by Alabama in. 1871 by 1920 every state has had. outlawed um wife abuse in the home right.

yeah but in the courts that wasn't in. forc it was very frequently not en. forced and in general American culture. viewed um wife battering spousal abuse. as a private family matter as long as it. happened behind closed doors and your. you know your wife didn't show up to. work if you let her have a job with. black eyes people were probably going to. look the other way even if you ended. ended up in court over it Criminal Court.

over it you were still probably going to. get off because it was a family matter. and I saw um just real quick I saw a. quote that a writer named Aaron. Blakemore for uh I think history.com. found there was a New York city. councilman in 1976 named Leon Katz who. said are we to break up a marriage. simply because a man beats his wife like. that was the attitude at the time so. this is what the feminist movement was. up against and circling back to The. Burning Bed it helped a lot yeah big.

time um you know you mentioned in case. people are confused about how or why he. continue to abuse her after their. divorce um this is over a 13-year period. but they divorced in 1971 he got in a. bad car accident and she let him move. back into the house and suffered six. more years of. abuse um he and and this guy was a. despicable human being if all of this. abuse wasn't enough uh and we're talking.

and this is stuff that will come out you. know as clear examples of course of. control like not just the physical. violence but threatening her life uh she. he made her drop out of Secretarial. School burn her books um the night of. the the final incident um and this seems. to be a common thing as far as tying in. um historical cultural at the time. domestic roles of like you know the wife. cooks for the husband and takes care of. the kids and this and that he like.

destroyed the dinner threw it on the. floor made her clean it up made her cook. it again that kind of thing and then um. in another incident strangled his. daughter's kitten in front of her oh so. he actually did he didn't just threaten. to no no no he did um so a despicable. human uh to the point where after that. final night um where she was raped one. final time he passed out drunk and she. set his bed on fire uh which is why it's.

called The Burning Bed and Farah fcet. got a lot of a claim for taking on like. a really serious role in in portraying. uh Francine Hughes to uh the great Paul. L mats despicable Mickey Hughes I I had. not heard of him I I I didn't bother to. look him up who is he what did he do oh. he was he was a great actor in the 70s. he was in a lot of stuff okay I didn't. recognize him yeah you remember Melvin. and Howard the no Jonathan Demi movie.

about the the true story of the when uh. the guy picked up Howard Hughes as a. hitchhiker no he was Melvin um and he. was in a lot of stuff PA guy in the 70s. and ' 80s okay I got to see that movie. I've never heard of that well it's not. what you think it's it's not a fun road. trip in the tradition of road trip no no. no it's a very good movie but that's a. very small part of it anyway just a. couple of more quick points um just of. how reprehensible this case was when the.

cops came um they that night they didn't. arrest him and in front of the cops they. later testified the police said that in. front of them he said it's over for you. because you called the police in front. of the cops and they still didn't arrest. him and after she killed him she drove. straight to the police station and and. confessed right and we should say they. had kids and the first thing she did was. get the kids out of the house and then. go back in and set the bed on fire set. the bedroom on fire around him so um.

yeah there was yeah the the impact that. the book and then the TV movie had and. spreading awareness is like really hard. to overestimate um but the it had. another really significant impact too in. the courts because remember we. said that the courts would just kind of. be like yeah sorry you shouldn't have. burned dinner I mean that's just what. women do you cook dinner and you do it. right or else who knows what your. husband's going to do kind of thing. right and this this this case that um.

Francine Hughes actually went through. when she turned herself into the police. and was charged with first-degree murder. um she got off just because she used a. temporary insanity defense right I think. that that was what it took for a jury to. be like okay fine we'll let you we'll. let you off we'll buy that but we can. only buy that because it doesn't matter. what else he did to you all we know. about is the physical abuse that. happened from time to time and yeah that. sucks but is it enough to kill a man and.

um she had to use temporary insanity and. that shortly after that I think because. of that case a psychologist named Lenor. Walker started studying women who had. killed their abusers and found that um. there were a lot of similarities between. them and she came up with a concept. called battered women's syndrome and. essentially it sought to explain how a. woman put in a position of being abused. could reasonably kill her abuser even if.

the the abuser not in the act right then. of committing violence against them and. it it laid a really great legal. groundwork for a lot of women to follow. uh who did kill their abuser um because. this had kind of been established like. this is a thing and that ultimately kind. of came out of the Francine Hughes case. yeah and she you know she got off on. temporary insanity but also may have. only gotten off on temporary insanity. because of the incredible ground swell.

of um support from uh you know obviously. largely women uh protesting outside the. court I mean it was a it was a very. well-known case and a very big deal um. and it it was not one that could just be. sort of uh dealt with as usual because. there were hundreds and hundreds of. women outside the court every day with. signs like demanding AC quiddle uh for. Francine Hughes so it was it was just. sort of one of those moments in time in. history that changed everything uh. because people spoke up so that whole um.

the whole the syndrome really gets a lot. of people wom gets a lot of people too. um there's some issues with the concept. of battered women syndrome in that it. basically says you have to be the kind. of woman who is submissive and passive. and your husband's still beating you up. you're still cooking dinner correctly. and your husband's still beating you up. um it calls for like a certain kind of. perfect victim for juries to to accept. battered women's syndrome defense. and some people are like okay we need.

something that's like more gender. neutral and essentially says any. reasonable person would kill their. abuser given these circumstances and so. battered women women syndrome is kind of. evolved over time and the circumstances. that have kind of been laid as the. groundwork for that reasonable woman to. kill her abuser or reasonable person to. kill her abuser um was coercive control. yeah and within that um Lenor Walker um. sort of groundwork that she laid one of.

the big things that she focused on was. something called learned. helplessness and that is the this. concept that hey they have they have. learned to be helpless they probably. didn't go into this relationship or not. necessarily went in to this relationship. like that but through the tactics of. coercive control AKA torture when looked. at in a military setting uh they they. have learned to be helpless and maybe. the only option is to set their bed on.

fire yeah but that's also a good example. of how other communities like black. communities um like black women in. particular are left out of that battered. women syndrome because again it requires. them the victim to be perfect um white. submissive middle class typically um and. if you're a black woman culturally. speaking in America you're viewed as. much stronger physically emotionally. than a white woman of that description. and so it'd be tough for you to use. battered women's syndrome because maybe.

you didn't learn learned helplessness. and that's a part of it maybe you do. seem like you you wouldn't put up with. much Guff so you killed the guy who. knows it's it's just that battered women. syndrome was much more limiting and then. one of the things that coercive control. does is really kind of spread it out and. it takes the woman out and it takes the. syndrome out and says this happens a lot. and it's a it's a pattern that can. result in the abuser being killed by the. abused and that's a reasonable response.

to that kind of treatment yeah uh should. we take a break uh yeah for sure all. right we'll be right back uh with more. on coercive control. [Music].

all right so we've been throwing that. word around a lot that term rather uh. coercive control was actually coined by. uh a guy named Evan Stark a. sociologist and um again it's sort of uh. trying to highlight the idea that uh. what's going on is not just physical. violence but a really just a DE ation of.

Freedom um making sure that uh your. partner doesn't have autonomy uh by. controlling them and he wrote a book in. 2007 uh called coer of control colon of. course the entament of women in personal. life um Evan Stark has done some pretty. great work uh in 1979 started uh getting. into um domestic violence uh work uh. along with his wife who was a physic a. physician named and flitcraft who uh.

worked at Yale New Haven Hospital and. noticed in the 70s that way more women. were coming into the ER that had been. beaten up uh by their partner than the. statistics uh typically had indicated I. think it was supposedly like 1 in 20 and. she said it's actually more like 1 in. four yeah that was another way that I. think Society um lived with itself and. being complicit in allowing domes domc. abuse it was this pretty rare and fit.

craft was like no 25% of women who come. into the ER were beaten by their. husbands or sent there by their husbands. right so in addition to kind of. supporting the women's movement at the. time and their their their assertions. that this was a big deal and we need to. do something about it and it's really. widespread um fit Craft's research. inspired her husband to kind of go off. and do uh this parallel um work I guess.

where he tried to figure out how to. explain how a woman could kill her. husband and it not be because she's. crazy or because she was a perfect. victim so he um started looking into. like they did some side research. together and they found something that. people hadn't really realized before. that in addition to women reporting. being beaten they also reported this. whole kind of cluster of other. mistreatment at the hands of their. spouse um and that it they kind of.

followed a pattern and those those. patterns really resembled the coercion. that Albert bitterman had had identified. back in the 50s yeah I mean it was kind. of bitterman plus almost because in the. context of um a domestic partnership or. marriage or whatever and and not a p. yeah uh and and again this is in the. 1970s and early 80s when um you know the. the the culture of um.

of how you partner and what partners are. responsible for was a lot different than. it is now so this is in context of back. then I mean even 10 years ago chuck oh. yeah for sure um but especially in the. late 70s and early 80s it was um as far. as coercive control goes you know things. again like uh dinner are my clothes. ready are they iron properly have you. cared for the kids in the right way um. and and not just like oh I'm watching. but um like you said even the perfect.

dinner could be made and that's thrown. on the floor it's all about you know. controlling and manipulating and that. threat of uh of physical violence that. is peppered in along the way to you know. to kind of hold that weight yeah and the. fact that um at the time especially. American culture viewed those roles as. specifically for women then a man being. upset when dinner wasn't made correctly. I mean that's not that didn't strike. anybody as completely abnormal that.

wasn't like a hey hey what's going on. here kind of thing and that helped. reinforce these patterns of domestic. abuse that include included coercion. like constant criticism and nagging that. led to. dehumanization um and the humiliation. that that um that having your dinner. thrown on the floor being made to clean. it up and then recook it creates in the. person this is the stuff that that um. Evan Stark really started to tease out. from the battered women literature and.

created like this whole body of of. research that it's weird the way that I. saw it was he took this kind of like. little germ that grew out of like a a. flower that was in the midst of. blossoming and found that that germ led. to actually the foundation that the. flower was growing out. of you just confuse me was it confusing. so the the the women's movement was. making a Headway with the battered wives. um awareness movement right so that's.

the flower blossoming and then Evan. Stark comes along and is looking at that. and he notices there's a little piston. or something or staman can never. remember what's what pistol and it sure. and that's growing not a piston a pistol. right and that's growing out of that. flower and that pistol is the um is. coercive control and as he started to. follow it he realized that actually. that's not just this little part of the. flower this is the thing the substance. that the flower is growing from that. coercive control is really what's going.

on in the vast majority of domestic. abuse cases the battering that can bring. the cops to the house that's just what. we witness that's just what pops its. head up in the public sphere behind. closed doors it's even worse than any of. us even. imagined yeah and you know what this all. led to is basically uh the long and the. short was they were saying you know you. shouldn't have to show. bruises um to have someone believe that. you're being abused cuz there's all.

kinds of abuse um a woman you know uh at. the time and I'm sure this still goes on. um sometimes but at the time like if you. were an abused uh partner in a. relationship and you had children they. may take your kids away uh as the uh. victim SLS Survivor because the kids. witness this stuff and they might be in. foster care so this was um sort of a. normal thing at the time and they were. saying like no you don't have to show.

bruises you um the partner doesn't. necessarily have to have mental health. problems um and and lose their children. so in 1990 um Stark opened a forensic. Social Work practice where he would go. in and testify in court on behalf of. these women and say you know and and. sort of preach this gospel basically on. behalf of these women saying you can't. take their kids away um was I believe 15. women in New York that had their kids.

placed in foster care that he testified. for uh as and and one of them actually. murdered her abusive husband so he was. really doing some pretty astounding work. yeah imagine Chuck like you you have to. plead insanity or temporary insanity so. that you don't get the electric chair of. the gas chamber but then they're like. okay but you're crazy so you can't have. your kids anymore because your husband. abused you that's that's the hand you. ended up being dealt in life yeah and I. mean and you know once they started.

diving into the research they found that. 60 to. 80% of uh women who look for assistance. uh because of violence in the household. have experienced coerur of control so 40. 20 to 40% is is just physical violence. but up to 80% is like controlling and. manipulating their lives um you know. like they make movies about this stuff. now I don't know how this became a movie. plot but I feel like I've. seen half a dozen movies where there's.

some sicko guy that like has detailed. instructions written for their wife to. follow to the tea right uh over you know. I I can't think of any of them right now. of course but someone just recently I I. can't think of any either right now yeah. I've just seen that as a plotline a lot. lately um and that's that's all coercive. control of course in these movies you. know it's always a great like um. Sleeping with the Enemy that kind of. thing. um yeah but he was a physical abuser too.

oh yeah for sure um and that's an old. one I feel like the the newer ones have. been more along the lines of these what. was it I just saw recently but you know. in the end of course there's always a. good ending and that that guy gets. what's coming to him oh yeah because. it's a movie so um as Stark's research. kind of jelled and solidified like you. said in the 80s 90s especially up until. I think 2007 when he published that book. like you said uh he came up with. basically signs and symptoms of coercive.

control as a form of domestic abuse um. and there is physical violence that is. actually um not just a part of coercive. control but in relationships where um. the husband dominates the wife through. coercive control the physical abuse that. the woman suffers is actually worse than. other kinds of um couple situations. where physical abuse happens so it's. more fre. and it's worse but you really want to.

kind of limit that part because you it. can easily mislead you into being like. this is what we're focusing on because. that's what we did for decades it's like. no there's focus on this but also expand. your your focus to include all this. other stuff as well yeah uh some of this. other stuff and again it'll sound a lot. like um what we detailed with with. torture in the Korean War but um. isolation of course uh that's a big one. isolating uh a partner or spouse from.

their family and their friends uh. controlling their comings and goings and. social activities uh spreading lies uh. maybe hey we need to move to another. state to like really isolate them um you. can't go to this thing you can't go to. your book club um that kind of thing. just con you know isolation and constant. monitoring and these days that can that. goes all the way to like you know. cameras in different rooms of the house. house and spy wear and GPS tracking and.

stuff like that yeah because the more. people that you're you're abused spouse. interacts with the higher the likelihood. that they're they're going to be. confronted with this idea that what. they're being treated like is not okay. and not normal so if you limit their. interactions you can keep them more. under your thumb that's something that. that Stark identified also um another. way to control them is uh through. restricting their finances yeah which is. another thing that was up until very.

recently very culturally supported as. well the man had the checkbook right in. a lot of a lot of traditional families. the man had the credit card the car was. in the man's name the house was in the. husband's name like it was that's just. how it was so it didn't seem. particularly abnormal or a form of. control uh even though that's how it's. used a lot of times where the man is is. able to keep his wife from running away. because she doesn't have the money in. some cases well yeah and also like I.

have no you know no credit no bank. account no no job no job history no car. sometimes uh it's really like uh it's so. it's it's such a limiting thing that the. very idea of leaving is scarier than. staying in in a um and of course this is. got huge air quotes around it but a. stable situation as far as having a home. above your head right and and a you know.

being able to buy groceries and stuff. like that yeah and the the resources. that are out there that are like no you. don't have to have a car you don't have. to have a credit card we'll come get you. we'll take care of you we'll help you. get on your feet which I think was. really well demonstrated in that um that. movie or limited series made um I never. saw that one what is her name um. Margaret quy yes oh it's just amazing. like I just think about that every once.

in a while it's just so good but they. did a good job of of showing like how. that actually works the problem is is if. you're being constantly monitored. including your internet activity if you. go on to one of those sites you're in. trouble you're going to raise the the. attention of your abuser and those sites. actually when you go on to them um like. like a domestic violence help site. they'll a popup will come up immediately. and say hey if your computer's being. monitored they can see that you're. visiting the site so be careful um so.

it's it's like just complete you can. escape the the places that can help you. escape you can't reach out to because. you're being monitored um and then on. top of it and this is like a day-to-day. thing um like your sleep your eating. your uh whatever medications you take. whatever just basic things that people. take care of themselves this is this is. controlled for you like your medicine's. left out this is what we're going to. have for dinner make sure it's it's. cooked by six on the dot um we're going. to go to bed at this time and we're.

going to have sex now and you're just. going to go along with it that's another. huge part sexual coer iness uh another. one is uh humiliation um you know we. talked about that as far as the the war. torture same deal um criticizing their. appearance making fun of them in front. of other people uh and then controlling. how they look you know you don't wear. this don't wear that uh you have to wear. what I say you have to wear your hair. like this that kind of thing yeah plus. also don't forget threats those are a. big deal too not just the threat of.

violence but also the threat of saying. like I'm going to get the kids if you. try to leave me I'm taking the kids from. you they're coming with me like any kind. of threat helps just kind of underpin. this sense of of control or helplessness. um and so there's a another kind of. separate um thread of uh I guess. research by a guy named a sociologist. named Michael Johnson who identified the. same thing as coercive control but he. said no I'm going to call this intimate. terrorism and said that there's. basically just different kinds of. domestic violence and coercive control.

is one of just a few of them yeah I mean. you mentioned earlier. um somebody getting abused in a in a. situation but is not part of a larger. abuse pattern uh he defines that as. situational couple violence right. whether it's you know one person hitting. the other both of them kind of going at. it after you know usually consuming. alcohol it's a big component of a lot of. this mhm uh and especially in the 70s. all those movies I've talked about they.

were all those guys were all drunks as. well um and that is a result of uh anger. management skills poor conflict. Revolution um still terrible but not. coercive control uh and then the idea of. violent resistance which is the person. uh being beaten uh ultimately will will. retaliate basically either as. retaliation as payback um in an effort. to resist being controlled or to just to.

maintain uh maintain their dignity uh. and in those situations it's sort of. like there is no other choice at this. point other than to to strike back right. that's the opposite essentially or the. outcome of coercive control sometimes I. guess that's what Farah fosa did in The. Burning Bed yes there's also this. concept that you touched on way early in. this episode about um how it could be. mutual Mutual violent control or Mutual. abuse and it's kind of a controversial. topic because some people are like no by.

definition coercive control means one. partner has power over the other partner. they can't have equal power over each. other or even like seawing power it's. just not doesn't work that way and I. think some people think it's a myth. because what they're saying is you're. seeing a an abused person push back or. fight back or defend themselves and. you're mistaking that for abuse when. really they're responding to being. abused that doesn't make it Mutual. that's normal rational response to being. abused is to fight back um and I think.

that's why people who think it's a myth. say it's a myth yeah for sure um Cove. control versus uh just sort of a. situational violent episode or episodes. um you're more likely if it's coercive. control and this makes a lot of sense of. course um to suffer from mental health. problems later on as a Survivor than you. would with just situational violence uh. when Partners separate it is actually. likely to get worse yeah that's crazy.

which that was the case with um uh The. Burning Bed you know they were divorced. he moved back in and there were six six. more years of abuse but um. separation uh was is going to threaten. that sense of control so a lot of times. it will intensify and that's when. stalking behaviors you know pick up. obviously if they're not in the same. household anymore um and coercive. control the violent episodes are usually. more serious and more frequent which is. what you alluded to earlier right so.

Chuck I say we take our second break and. come back and talk about whether this. whole thing is gender specific or not. all right let's do it. [Music].

so um there's a a just kind of a. discussion or debate about coercive. control and whether it's gender specific. and specifically meaning the husband. dominates the wife and researchers like. Evan Stark who coined the term coercive. control another sociologist named. Christel Anderson say yes that's. absolutely how it is some of them may. even allow like it does in very rare um.

instances happen the opposite way where. the woman dominates the man but for the. most part because of these social. structures that coercive control takes. advantage of to kind of hide in plain. sight and seem normal-ish um that that. that requires that it be a man. dominating a woman yeah and Livia helped. us with this and um she did something. that Livia rarely does which is sort of. include her own speculation and I. totally agree that when Stark was doing. his work sort of in the late 70s and.

early 80s or through the 80s um things. were different Dynamics were different. and um women do have more uh access to. institutional power these days uh and. the idea of just sort of traditional. roles in the household are different. these days right but from where Stark. was coming from I totally get where. where uh he would say essentially that. like even if violence like if if a woman. hits a man it's it's very very rare for.

a woman to have the kind of um economic. control and financial control in the. household maybe a better job um she came. into it with more money she's the one. that owns a house like that was just a. lot more rare back then well plus also. Chuck there's studies that show that. even earning um a higher income than. your husband not only doesn't protect. you from domestic violence it actually. increases your risk there's a 2021. Australia study that said that if you. earn more than half of the household. income your risk of being a victim of.

domestic violence as a woman increases. 35% so yeah it really kind of supports. the idea that this this whole thing is. based on these gender Norms of a a man. dominating a woman yeah there's a. sociologist named Kristen Anderson uh in. 2009 wrote a paper that that kind of. supported that basically was like one of. the reasons that men might engage more. in Co of control. or maybe even exclusively is to devalue.

femininity and to to boost up their own. male ego right and in cases where uh and. this is in you know way before like 11. years before that when you cited she was. talking about the fact that when a woman. earns more than her husband that. threatens a man's masculinity and that's. when trouble happens yeah so um on the. other hand there are also studies that. say no women actually uh do use coercive. control in some cases it might not be as. widespread and there might not be as.

much physical violence but all of the. other stuff like monitoring uh isolating. from support network um threats. humiliation that is not gender specific. and it can go the other way according to. a 2022 study in the UK um so it is it. depends I think on how nuanced a. definition of coercive control you want. to give whether it's kind of gender. specific or not yeah and that 2022 study. just to be clear was uh when they have.

found uh women who have uh been the. perpetrator of intimate partner violence. in in those situations they are more. likely than their male counterparts to. have used course of control rather than. physical abuse which is a big. distinction it is for sure but then one. other thing that has come out of. research too is that this can also occur. in same-sex couples that one can. dominate the other which also kind of. undermines the idea that it's gender.

specific yeah for sure so there's a big. push to say okay we've got this whole. domestic violence um battered women's. syndrome defense going let's you know. what about the women who who don't show. up to the ER with a broken arm or a. black eye or something but their lives. are still completely controlled and and. just destroyed by their husbands how do. we how do we get them out of those. situations and some people like well. let's figure out how to Outlaw coercive. control and some places have as a matter.

of fact yeah for sure there have been. some states uh that have passed some. laws about course of control uh some. countries that have taken action and. they all kind of work in in Myriad ways. in the in the UK um it is defined as a. crime which is great uh in the United. States like California um they made it. this is interesting they made it a civil. violation as part of their the Family. Code of the state so you can use it it's. less like a crime throw a person in jail.

and more use it civil to um get a. restraining order maybe or if there's a. custody dispute or something it can be. used and we should draw a clear. distinction here it's like it's obvious. I think but this is not this has nothing. to do with like BDSM which is can. involve uh dominating someone very spe. uh Specific Instructions and control on. you know sexual behaviors in the bedroom. as a completely different thing than.

what we're talking about here yeah. because it's willing there's no coercion. involved even it's like simulated. exactly yeah and Livia cited this. California case that that where a woman. was able to use coercive control where. she did not suffer any physical violence. but was controlled by her husband like. who gave her pages and pages of. instructions on how to do everything. from wash the dishes to those are the. mov right exactly this guy actually did. it um to what time she was to to get.

wake up and get out of bed and every day. at 8:30 p.m. they had a standing. appointment where he would go over how. she did that day and there would be the. threat of punishments or something like. that and I couldn't find what that the. punishments entailed but that's how she. lived and she finally escaped it by. getting a restraining order based on. that and that was a huge huge case that. came out of California and so other. places are like oh we can do this other. Advocates are like wait wait wait we. should be careful with this because. there's already a history of abusers.

using anti-abuse laws against their. victims like when the cops show up very. often the abusers are the more. convincing of the two and if you have a. he said she said and you're a male cop. who kind of thinks that you know A. Woman's Place actually is in the home. you're probably going to believe the. abuser or in other cases you're going to. arrest both people just to be sure so. that means that a victim of abuse is. likely to get arrested for being abused.

if the cops come out and so because they. they have a history of already using the. existing laws coercive control is even. harder it's even squishier to prove or. or to see or witness so it may be even. likely or that a victim of abuse will. end up going to jail because their. abuser accused them of be of doing the. abuse yeah there was a case uh in. Australia sort of a you know a really. spot-on example of of how uh awful this. can can get um if when you're you know.

coming to the the front door as a police. officer and there's something that's. happened there uh This Woman's name was. uh Tamica malele a uh witty indigenous. woman who was attacked by her partner uh. mvin bell cops show up um she's trying. to get the cops to talk to her father to. try and like verify that this stuff is. going on the cops aren't listening she's. argue with arguing with the cops uh and. then allegedly uh spit on them or spit.

at them and so they arrest her she goes. into custody and while she was in. custody her partner kidnapped and killed. her baby yeah it caused a huge National. Reckoning about you know cops believing. not just women but especially. marginalized women and women from. marginalized communities who do not get. the benefit of the doubt compared to say. like a white woman in the same exact. situation and so so that's another. example of them being like okay should. we really Outlaw this stuff and make it.

easier for the the abuse to be arrested. that but it's still it seems to be up in. the air you know which way to go but I. feel like people are going more toward. outlawing coercive control than saying. like whoa whoa whoa we shouldn't do that. yeah and you know criminalizing is one. thing um a lot of the other things that. researchers have pointed to that can. help um you know just an episode like. this from for example uh public. Awareness on stuff like this um.

encouraging friends and family to to. sort of pay attention to that kind of. thing yeah um rather than just like. looking for bruises or whatever or being. like yeah husbands get jealous that's. just what husband's Duke and like. explaining it away yeah providing. resources uh to to help people because. you know we mentioned that especially. with coercive control a lot of times. they're in situations where they they. will leave with nothing so uh resources. so people feel like they can leave with. nothing and still survive is very very.

important yeah and then improving. women's like position in society overall. would help a lot if women were treated. more equally not just on paper but. culturally as well that would solve a. lot of these problems yeah for sure um. so there has been some progress um the. the violence against women Act of 1994. was passed and since then um in domestic. violence non-fatal domestic violence in. the United States fell 63% and intimate.

partner homicides fell from 2200 to. 1640 for female victims 1100 to 700 for. male victims so there is there is like. you know progress being made but there's. still a long long way to go. unfortunately yeah and to be clear that. is um cases of physical violence um we. don't we don't have studies like that on. course of control which which is part of. the problem y you got anything else yeah.

you know we should encourage people uh. there is a National Domestic Violence. Hotline uh it's open. 247 um in English and Spanish it's 1 800. or I guess just 800 these days shows how. old I am. 7997233 uh 8007997233. I I can't imagine how hard it is to make. that phone call um but if. episode speaks to your life in a in a. specific way uh then please seek help.

and reach out to to a friend or family. member for help um to help you pick up. that phone if that's what it takes. agreed Chuck well put and thanks for. saying that too yeah and whatever. country you're in most likely has some. sort of hotline so um we can't list them. all here but uh but please look into. that yeah uh if you want to know more. about coer of control start reading. about it on the internet there's a. growing body of research about it and uh.

it's fascinating and repellent at the. same time but hopefully it's going to. improve lives across the board uh and. since I said that it's time for listener. mail uh I'm going to call this. documentary uh documentary. recommendation for you my friend oh okay. I like those hey guys I've been. listening for a long time love what you. do never really thought I'd have a. reason to email but this felt to Kismet. uh it's kind of a fun coincidence my. roommate and I just watched the.

documentary the world before your feet. last night and in the movie there's a. lot of trash on the streets of New York. and we were just curious about the trash. issue and the whole situation uh we'd. both been to New York but it had been a. while so we forgot how bad it was uh. Midway through that episode of yours now. and Josh said I wish there was a way to. see what was there I knew I had to write. in because this is probably a. documentary that he would enjoy nice uh. uh in the dock Matt Green has a goal to. walk every street in New York City oh my.

in the dock he is followed around on. parts of his journey by the. documentarian and he tells stories about. New York City and its history uh. throughout the journey he also writes. comprehensive blog posts and in those. posts he writes about New York's uh. history and what buildings and spaces uh. used to be so whether you want to watch. the dock or read the blog post there is. an answer to your curiosity and that is. again it's called the world before your. feet and that is from Tia thanks a lot.

Tia I appreciate that I will definitely. go check that out it is right up my. alley walking every street in New York. man I'm still wrapping my head around. that one pretty cool uh well if you want. to be like Tia and recommend a. documentary please do especially if it. has nothing to do with ancient aliens uh. you can wrap it up spank it on the. bottom and send it off to stuff podcast. at iheartradio.com. stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart radio for more podcasts from.

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