Child Prodigies: Better to Burn Out Than Fade Away | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And we're all feeling pretty. precocious today here on Stuff You. Should Know. Uh, you know, judging from what just. happened, I I think if we release a. little five minute mini episode every. week of the five minutes before we where.

we're recording, but before we start the. the stuff that we're doing. >> Mhm. >> I bet people would eat that up. >> Yeah. >> Rated R. >> So, uh, yeah, I'm sure some people would. like that. The the stuff you should. know, Army definitely would. >> Yeah, for sure. Everyone else would be. like, "Who cares what what these guys. are talking about off my. >> Exactly. I I tune in for facts and that's it.". >> Yeah. >> Uh, you know who else would probably eat. it up, Chuck? >> I'm I'm thinking about names in this.

Uh, I don't know. >> Well, I was just going to start with. Mozart. Oh, >> okay. >> Wolf Gang Amadeo would have loved that. kind of thing. He was really into. hearing people um talk candidly uh to. one another. It was one of his things. >> Well, we're talking about child. prodigies and that's why you bring up. Mozart, obviously. Uh thanks to Julia. for help with this. >> Uh and also this is the first time I. think that we're covering something that. was a chapter in our book.

>> No, we've done it before and I can't. place it. We definitely There was one. other one that we definitely did. Yeah. >> Mr. Potato Head. >> No. No. No, I'll try to think of it and. I'll I'll allocate about 5% of my brain. to um coming up with it while we do the. episode. Okay. >> Uh okay. At any rate, this was one of. the chapters from our book and we were. both individually relieved when we. texted each other that we each read. reread the chapter. >> and it was basically the same and I was. worried. I was like, man, this is going. to be so different that one of them is.

going to be sort of wrong. But long way. of saying why we talked about Mozart is. because if you read anything on the. internet about child prodigies. Uh. Mozart's a name that's gonna probably. come up. Uh one of the more famous. prodigies and there's Julia found a. pretty fun story about Mozart as a. teenager. Right. >> Yeah. I actually went and listened to. this uh Miser. Yeah. Miser. Uh it's a. coral piece for like I think nine coral. parts and it's it was written by uh.

Gregorio Aliggaryi back in I don't. remember when he wrote it but at least. before 1770 because that was the year. that a young Amdus Mozart who was uh 14. at the time went to Vatican City to hear. this. And the reason he and his father. traveled to Vatican City is because this. coral piece was so beloved by the people. uh the I guess the the pope and all of. his buddies. Yeah. um that they forbade. anybody from performing it outside of. Vatican City. And so, you know, a. correlary to that was no one could.

transcribe it. Um so that uh it was just. to be heard in Vatican City. They. thought it was that beautiful. And it's. if you heard it, you probably recognize. it. Your mom probably listened to it. while she was cleaning the house or you. heard it on like. >> America's Top 40 in the in the 70s or. something. Uh, I've just I've been. distracted ever since you said the Pope. and his buddies because now all I can. think of is his sitcom called Pope in. Company. >> That's not bad. >> Amperand CO dot obviously, >> right? And the Pope has his like.

favorite recliner that's almost like an. extra character. >> Yeah. Don't sit in it if you're not. >> That's right. >> Uh, yeah. So anyway, uh, very revered. thing within Vatican City. And did you. mention that no one could transcribe it? >> I certainly did while you were um. distracted. Yeah, I was really thinking. about like what the opening credits of. that sitcom would look like. >> Do you have the theme song in your head? >> It's it's clicking around up there. I'm. not I'm no prodigy, so it'll take a. minute. >> All right. >> Uh but uh you mentioned the the. transcription because um Mozart as a.

precocious 14-year-old. >> uh couldn't fall asleep apparently the. night after the performance. So he woke. up from his slumber and transcribed it. even though he wasn't supposed to from. memory as a 14-year-old. went back, heard it uh a couple of uh days later. and was like, "Oh, I made a couple of. mistakes from memory." He realized this. and went back and fixed them. He had hid. it in his hat because, you know, he. wasn't allowed to have this transcribed. But just a kind of a fun story of. Mozart's precociousness.

>> Yeah. And so he was at he was age 14. So. technically by this time he was a former. prodigy. >> Oh, was that the cut off? >> No, 10 is the cut off. You have to have. achieved this by 10 to be considered a. prodigy. But the reason I said generally. is because if you go by the strictest. definition of prodigy, there are. >> only a handful of the ones we talk about. in in this uh episode or will talk about. >> actually qualify as prodigies. And.

technically Mozart, you could make a a a. case if he was a prodigy, he was a kind. of a poor example of a prodigy because. he went on to do great things as an. adult, which is also something that's. not usually characteristic of a prodigy. >> Yeah. And we also need to kind of spell. out the difference between genius and. prodigy because they're not necessarily. the same thing. >> Um well, they're not the same thing at. all, but they can overlap at times, I. guess, is the better way to say it. But. >> yeah, and I think Mozart would be an. example of that. Yeah, for sure. Um, but.

genius, um, usually is a high IQ or a. highQ score of 140. >> Um, but they may not, you know, ever. achieve anything. You can be a genius. and not achieve anything great. I mean, you probably will if you're a genius, but not necessarily, >> right? >> A prodigy doesn't necessarily have a. high IQ. They often do. Um, but Oh, yeah. There it is right there. Generally. by the age of 10. But what a prodigy is. is is a kid that achieves like uh like. surpasses adult lever uh levels of.

mastery um by the time they're 10. Like. stuff that you know a lot of adults. can't even achieve an expertise or you. know like I can do this math or this. chess or this play this you know. instrument better than an adult who's. been doing it for decades before the age. of 10. >> Yeah. They reach like the elite level. where you can't really get any better as. far as adults go by the age of 10. And. then one of the other things about being. a prodigy then is that by definition you. have achieved something. >> Yeah.

>> Whereas like you said but the being a. genius you you're genius throughout your. whole life but you may or may not. achieve something right to be considered. a prodigy you have to have achieved. something. That's just part and parcel. with it. >> Yeah. And prodigies were um all the rage. sort of in the uh beginning of the 20th. century when tabloid journalism started. and when IQ test started. They were all. over the newspapers. People just were, you know, uh, amazed and want, you know, in awe of these these kids who could do. these amazing things. They were all over.

the place. >> Yeah. The term pints size was thrown. around a lot, >> I bet. >> But they would they would like reporters. would interview them to ask them their. thoughts on like current events and. stuff like that and they'd be quoted. extensively in the paper and people I. mean people like you said were in awe, but they were also like, "Oh, that's a. pretty good point. I hadn't thought. about that." you know, so they were. taken seriously, too. >> And then there's a couple of other. points that kind of make up prodigies. that we've kind of figured out over the. years. One of the things we should say. about prodigies is that there's a.

surprising lack of people working on. this. There are some people who study. prodigies and they're they're experts in. in the psychology and neurology of. prodigies, but because there's so few. people working on it, we don't have a. full grasp on it. So, it's largely. speculation, but it seems like. >> we're starting to get on on track about. what makes a prodigy. But even still, there's not like a cut and dried uniform. definition of a prodigy. Some extra.

things though that usually show up uh in. particular is that they usually excel in. just one field of knowledge a domain. >> and then in that specific field of. knowledge they excel in one kind of. subsection of it. So uh for example if. you were a um a music prodigy you. probably are a prodigy in say classical. music. You're not like classical, jazz, sca, right? You're prodigy in just one.

Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, uh that's another another. frequent thing, too. You just get really. really really good at one specific. thing. That's a characteristic of. prodigies. >> Yeah. And there, you know, you can be a. prodigy in anything. A lot of times. you'll see it in music and the maths. Uh. chess is another good one that you see a. lot of prodigies in, but you can really. be a prodigy in anything. Um but it's. like you said a narrow range but they.

usually exhibit uh one intelligence. type. Uh if you're talking about like. psychological intelligence type, linguistic, mathematical, logical, spatial, visual, musical, uh uh. kinesthetic, yeah, interpersonal, intrapersonal, >> and naturalistic. Uh and you know, it's a rare that a. prodigy excels in more than one of. these. >> Yeah. And the um that's multiple. intelligences theory that Gardner I. can't remember Gardner's first name put.

out in the early 90s and it basically. overturned the idea of general. intelligence which up to that point. that's what everybody thought people had. and Gardner was like no actually I think. it's like carved into different areas. and people can kind of take from each of. those then that that's that makes up. your intelligence not just a big general. encyclopedia version of it. Yeah. But it. seems to be pretty well um pretty well. accepted these days. But like you said. um mo most of the time they'll excel in. just one of those. Again um you know.

you're probably not a linguistic prodigy. and a um intrapersonal prodigy where you. are really good at examining yourself. >> Yeah. And how you get to be a prodigy. is, you know, pretty complex and we'll. see later it's probably a a a. combination of a bunch of different. things. Mhm. >> Um it's definitely a combination of. nature and nurture and they've done some. studying and we'll get to some studies. later on about the you know genetics and. the biology of it all and like brain. function but there is a psychologist who.

is also in our book uh Ellen Wy and. she's one of the people if you look up. prodigies she's one of the few experts. you talked about. >> right. >> uh that knows a lot about this stuff but. she um she believes in both nature and. nurture but she very much is like. there's got to be a genetic component uh. and she has a quote if a child suddenly. at age three goes to the piano and picks. out a tune and does it beautifully, this. has to be because that child has a. different brain. And I totally agree. Like there's something you're born with.

if you if you've ever seen the the. videos of uh Tiger Woods when he's like. 2 years old with a pretty perfect golf. swing. >> Like it's that that it's something that. someone is born with, >> right? Um, there's also Julia found a a. quote from an editor of Vanity Fair who. mentioned Elizabeth Benson, who we'll. talk about a little bit more. Um, but he. agreed that it was probably biology, but. he has described it to a perfect. functioning of her endocrine glands.

>> Interesting. >> He figured it was glandular is what was. behind being a prodigy. But the point is. it was biology. And this is 1913, by the. way. So, >> like right now, >> right now it's No, it's not 1913. It's. 1983. >> Oh, god. Thank god. I've got my son. Britches in my OP tank top. >> I know. You look kind of out of place, man. >> Uh, so the other thing about genetics is. you can see it in like, you know, there. can be siblings that are prodigies, uh,

like together, I guess, co-prodigies. Yeah. >> So, there it definitely sort of leans to. the idea that it could be genetic. Um. there are quite a few male very famous. male composers who had sisters who were. also prodigies and amazing composers and. pianists or violinists or what have you. but they didn't get the you know the. attention that their uh you know brother. sibling counterparts got because they. were girls. Um Maria Mozart was one. Uh. Felix Mendelson had a sister named Fanny.

who was a music prodigy. >> Uh and then others that you often see. mentioned obviously are Venus and Serena. Williams. And then the Pular sisters who. were uh Judith, Susan, and Sophia. They. were chess prodigies, >> right? Uh and you were thinking about. Pope and Company as a sitcom. Well, I. was studying this. I noticed Felix and. Fanny. >> would make a good um children's book. series, right? >> Oh, yeah. >> Like I just imagine them as little kids. and in between piano lessons they go off. and solve mysteries together. Felix and.

Fanny series. Yeah. So, anytime I think. of children's books, I think of our. literary agent, our former agent, Steven. Bar. >> Oh, yeah. >> So, I looked him up to say hi and I was. looking uh I was looking him up on the. internet. He has his own children's book. that he wrote and published. It's called. The Upside Down Hat. And so, I emailed. him and congratulated him. I was very. excited to see that. Yeah. He's got two. more coming, too. >> Stephen was the best. And uh I knew he. had a kid since we had worked with him.

So, that's that's super cool. I love. that. Yeah, he's got two now. He says. >> two kids or two children's books? >> Two kids, three children's books, including the two that are coming out. soon. >> Well, I guess he needs to get a third. kid. They have to match, >> right? One for each. >> Yeah, it's called the upside down hat, and it's pretty cute looking. >> Oh, that's wonderful. Um, so I guess. let's take a break. Well, I guess the. last thing we should say is, you know, I. mentioned sort of the um perfect storm. of things to make a Prodigy, and that. definitely seems to be the consensus.

It's like there's there's some genetics. at play, great, >> but the the cognitive, developmental, and environmental factors are all kind. of coming together at the same time. >> uh to lead to that um what Ellen Winter. calls a rage to master, which we're. going to talk about out of the break. That seems to be the recipe, >> right? It makes me wonder like how many. things have we just not understood that. we could have already had we not. constantly been trying to boil. everything down to one thing? Like this. is one cause for all this other stuff. like is it nature, is it nurture? No,

it's both. And I'm glad to see that. Prodigy researchers have accepted that. fact. >> Agreed. >> Okay. Well, let's take that break then. >> All right. We'll be right back. [Music]. All.

right. So, I mentioned the phrase uh. rage to master and that was something I. believe Ellen Wy came up with and that's. kind of exactly what it sounds like. which is something that they found with. prodigies at these these little kids. >> come out of the womb. >> They get to be like two maybe three. years old. >> and all of a sudden out of nowhere they. exhibit a gift and that's the only thing. they want to do. And this is not some.

kid who's like hey they turned out to be. pretty good at this and they played a. lot of piano. Like we're talking about. prodigies, like they become obsessed. with they have a rage to master this. thing. >> Yeah. And it's just basically like they. they ignore everything else. Even stuff. that that little kids would want to do. like fun playing stuff or going to the. movies or whatever. All they want to do. Yeah. All they want to do is that one. thing over and over and over again and. master it. And so there's a a researcher. named Larry Vandervert who um who.

believes that it has to do with the um. the connection between the cerebellum. and the cerebral cortex. >> And the reason he focuses in on the. cerebellum is because apparently that is. where we learn things. We become experts. in things. We we learn to practice. things. And the cerebellum has a bunch. of connections to the cerebral cortex. Cerebral cortex is in charge of our. higher functioning. So with those two. combined together, working together, um. us doing things repetitively is how we.

learn to get better and better at it. Right? His whole thing is that with a. prodigy, what we're seeing is the evolution of. humanity. at its brightest point. Like these are. examples of what could conceivably be. every single person if that perfect. storm you were talking about came. together. Um, and and it's just like the. the the most finely tuned functioning. example of what our brains have evolved.

to be able to do. That's what he says. prodigies are. >> Yeah. It's pretty interesting. He. theorizes that the cerebellum creates. some kind of feedback loop is what he. calls it. >> where you have, you know, some kind of. selective affinity or a talent or an. interest in something. >> and getting better at that. Uh, I mean, it's got to be like a dopamine reward or. something like it hits those reward. centers and there's some sort of. psychological gold star that you give. yourself and that feels so good that. this that the kid with a prodigious.

brain is constantly seeking that reward. and he it creates what he calls a. maximal grip like this grip has just got. a hold of this kid because they're. always seeking that that mental gold. star of getting better and better and. better at that one thing. >> Yeah. Right. So, it's almost like. they're they're No chill, >> right? They uh they're it's like their. brains get stuck in a natural. progression or natural part of. developing as a human being from. childhood to adulthood and it they just. go off like a rocket on that one.

tangent. >> Yeah, that was not me. >> No, it wasn't me either. >> I can do a lot of things pretty good. >> Yeah. A dilotant. >> Yeah. I mean, that's always been my. thing like with with sports. Uh I was. never like built the way uh you needed. to be built to play like varsity sports. >> Mhm. >> But I could throw a football and catch a. football and punt a football and I could. play a little tennis. I can play a. little golf. I can, >> you know, I played, you know, a little. baseball, a little softball, little. soccer. I can kick a soccer ball.

>> Wow. >> I can I can throw a Frisbee. Like, you. know, I'm well-rounded athletically, but. I was never going to be on a like a an a. high school team, >> right? I gotcha. I was okay in church. league, right? >> Everybody wins, >> but I wouldn't embarrass myself in. anything, you know. >> Um, I excelled as a child in hiding my. knockoff Flintstone vitamins in my. Lincoln Logous because they were so. disgusting I couldn't eat them, >> man. They were gross. I can actually.

almost make myself nauseated thinking. about them now. >> Really? >> Mhm. >> Betty was not a vitamin. >> I don't remember that, was she not? She. was missing. I don't think so because I. there was a local band in Atlanta called. Bettyy's Not a Vitamin then. Oh, >> okay. >> Because of that factoid. >> Well, had she been um in the Flintstone. knockoff vitamins I had, she would have. looked all misshapen. Her name would. have been like um Teddy or something. like that.

>> with two with three T's. >> I love it. Uh there's one other thing. about Larry Vandervert's um hypothesis. about the cerebellum because he said, you know, this is a a weird like um. example of human natural human. development. He he pointed out that part. of what being a prodigy is excelling at. something cultural, right? Like. everything that prodigy kids do, they're. not inventing anything. They're just. getting good at something that already. exists. >> Yeah. Yeah. So part of his theory or.

hypothesis is that you couldn't have a. prodigy by definition before the advent. of culture. So he theorizes that. probably about 10,000 years ago is when. the first prodigy started to pop up. >> Oh, interesting. I thought that was. >> took son or daughter. >> Yeah, maybe great great great great. great grandson or daughter. >> Okay. Yeah, good point. >> That's my posit. I I never remember when. Tuk Tuk lived, so you know me, I get a. little confused. >> He's all over the place.

>> So, another really interesting. biological uh piece to this is memory. And working memory is something that. they found. I think there was a paper in. 2012 by um researchers Urbach and Ruth. Zotsz. >> They gathered cognitive data from eight. child prodigies and they looked at a. couple of things. They looked at their. developmental uh history. They looked at. scores on the Stanford Benet fifth um. fifth edition intelligence test and the. autism spectrum quotient.

>> and they found you know there were. different range of IQs but uh even the. ones that had high IQs weren't on the. extreme end of like you know super. genius or anything but what they did. find. >> was that every single one of them were. in the 99th percentile for working. memory. I saw some also scored in the. 99.9th. percentile. So yeah, like. >> there's something there. >> I was reading a I think a Scientific. American article on this and they said. that if you just randomly selected eight.

people. >> and gave them this test like there is a. zero chance that that they would all. score in the 99th percentile. So it is. quite a finding. >> But I think also like a really important. finding too is that their IQs aren't. particularly eyepopping. >> Yeah. But you know some of them were I. think past 140 and that's the the um 140. is the minimum for genius. 130 I think. is where being gifted starts. At least. one of them had an IQ of 100 and that is.

exactly average IQ. >> Yeah. >> So IQ or intelligence or at least the. way that we understand measuring. intelligence with IQ see doesn't seem to. have that much to do with being a. prodigy. has some because again 100 I. think was the minimum and they went up. to to genius level and pass but it. doesn't have nearly as much as you would. think. >> Yeah, for sure. Um but working memory. like that's really interesting to me. because that's the last like that's your.

active working memory. The last few. things that have happened. >> calling those up really easily. So if. you're talking, you know, about. obviously with, you know, musicianship. and chess and math and things like that, like being able to really quickly recall. the last few notes you played or the. last few parts of this logarithm, um. that's that's going to have a big impact. obviously. >> for sure. Um there's a good example that. I found of that um John von Newman who. would go on to become a great. mathematician, physicist, pioneer in.

computer science. He as a child prodigy. would um entertain his parents' friends. at their parties by um they give him a. phone book and he would read over one of. the pages and then hand the phone book. back and they'd ask him questions like. what's you know they'd pick a name and. say what's their phone number and. address and he'd tell them. Um, and then. they'd say, "Well, recite this whole. page." And he would recite it verbatim. just after looking at it for a little. while, which is an amazing example of. working memory. But that's also, I mean,

he was a phone book prodigy, pure and. simple. >> Uh, as you know, I recently had lunch. with a friend of the show and and pal. Kevin Pollock, the actor. Yes. And. comedian. And uh, sadly, you were out of. town, so you couldn't go. Pollock's first uh his first act was not. doing it because he's a great. impressionist as we all know. Um not. doing impressions of uh comedy albums. like a lot of kids the first thing they. do is like just repeat the bits from. comedy records or specials,

>> right? >> He he would uh he would mouth them in. perfect synchronicity. >> Oh wow. So he would do air air comedy. and he would do like the the throat. clears and everything. And he he did it, you know, as like I don't know how young. he was. He said he was like six or seven. >> to where like one of his mom's neighbors. or one of his neighbors or one of his. mom's friends was like, "You're doing. this at the, you know, the Shine Bombs. bar mitzvah next week. Like I'm booking. you.". >> And he was like for the first six years. or so of his life, like he did at.

school. Like my act was completely just. mouththing these comedy bits. >> That's pretty awesome. Yeah, that's. pretty that's impressive. He was a. Richard Prior comedy album prodigy. >> Well, I mean, he made a good point which. was he was like the material killed. because the material was great because. it was like. >> the best comics and he went and then I. got it down so good that part killed and. he was like I couldn't fail basically. >> That's pretty great, man. >> Yeah, fun story. >> Um Oh, yeah. So, one other thing about. working memory, Chuck, before we move. on, uh it one of the things that it.

helps with is learning things like chess. or math or things that have steps to. them. you're keeping the information you need. to complete this step so you can move on. to the next and you're probably also. thinking about what the next step is too. simultaneously. Working memory really. comes in handy for that. So it makes. sense that they have just amazing. working memory um levels. >> Yeah. And the um connection to autism is. really interesting too because in that. paper you know from 2012 I mentioned. that they looked at cognitive data for.

uh several things. One of which was the. autism spectrum quotient. Mhm. >> And they found a, you know, they found a. pretty undeniable connection. They found. that subjects who were prodigies had uh. definitely had more autistic relatives. than the general population does. >> and very high scores in the attention to. detail part of the autism spectrum. quotient. So, right, >> um, you know, attention to detail is. something obviously if you have a gift. for, you might wind up a prodigy. >> Yeah. but they didn't score high or um.

beyond the the um general population in. the other parts of the autism spectrum. um quotient. Yeah. >> So they don't have autism. I think. that's because um there's a separate. group where if you have like severe. autism or some other cognitive. difference, uh you are a savant. You're. not a prodigy. You're a savant. Even. though the stuff you're doing. >> is prodigious. It's you're you're. considered separate for some reason. I.

don't know why, but that seems to still. be the case. >> Yeah, that's interesting. Um those same. two uh researchers, Ruth Zotsz and uh. was it Olak? >> Urbach. >> Jerry Orbach. Jerry Orbach. Uh they did. a they authored a second paper and this. is from 2014 where they studied 18. prodigies this time. Uh and they were. masters these 18 in either math, music. or art. And some of the patterns they. found were pretty interesting. Um, they. all had that same great working memory.

Uh, so that was sort of proved out a. little further even. But the music and. math prodigies scored a lot higher on. working memory than even the art. prodigies. >> And this was super interesting to me. The math prodigies displayed the highest. levels of overall intelligence and. extraordinary visual spatial skills. whereas the art prodigies had the lowest. visual spatial scores. >> Yeah. Which is weird. >> Yeah. counterintuitive. >> Yeah. Uh should we take a break or keep. going? >> Yeah, let's take a break.

>> Okay, we're gonna take a break, everybody. Here we go. [Music]. Okay, Chuck. So, uh, we've talked a. couple of times about how prodigy.

experts agree that it does seem to be a. combination of nature and nurture. I. think perfect storm is a term that. people use a lot. Um, so the the the. parents of a prodigy definitely do have. a role in in their development as a. prodigy and there have been parents of. prodigies who have really kind of. claimed that they're essentially. responsible for their child's prodigy. >> Um, there was a I think William James. Citizen's dad, remember we did a whole.

episode on that poor guy. >> Oh yeah, his dad. >> What's his deal? He uh was one of the. most amazing child prodigies of all. time. Just beyond gifted, just dusted. other prodigies. Like made him look like. just lumps of unmolded clay done by a. artist prodigy with terrible visual. spatial skills essentially. >> I love it. >> Um but he's but he was worth his whole. his own episode. It was a good episode. But his dad Boris was um taught him from.

a very early age essentially from. basically when he was born and he he. essentially claimed responsibility. There's another um very famous prodigy. uh whose name was Winifred Sackville. Stoner Jr. and her mom was Winter. Sackville Stoner Senior and her mom. claimed um responsibility for her. child's prodigy. We'll talk a little bit. more about them, but parents do play a. huge role even when um even if it's not.

quite as far as some of them boast. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, if you're going. to be a prodigy at golf or tennis or, you know, piano or something like that, it requires, you know, those those. things aren't cheap. Um, I mean. certainly there are stories of people. who from a family that maybe you know. didn't have the kind of resources that. other families might have that that you. know find a local municipal golf course. where they can go and play super cheap. But those are like those are kind of. rich kids sports. Pianos cost a lot of. money. So a lot of times with these uh.

if you look at the parents and the. family situation, they are very involved. parents who have resources to to make it. happen not only with equipment but. dedicating the time and hiring a lot of. times at at very expensive hourly rates. like masters in that thing to help teach. that kid. >> Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, you can boil it. down to a handful of factors um that. parents play a large role in. First you. have to start that with the kid has a. natural ability, right? You don't you don't teach that. That has.

to exist already. >> Yes. And then that um the kid has to. have access to those teachers. And like. you said, these aren't Joe Schmo. teachers like teaching out of their. house on the side for a little extra. cash. These are like the best of the. best teacher experts in this field. >> Um that's who the parents need to have. the resources to pay. Uh and those. teachers have to come in at just the. right moment. I don't think it's. necessarily down to the minute, but they. have to come pretty early in the kid's.

development so that the kid doesn't get. bored because they've gone as far as. they can go or because they don't. necessarily understand what would even. be next. >> Yeah. Or, you know, you might get lucky. and have that within your own family. Like I I mean, I think Wolf Gang um Van. Halen, >> right? I don't I don't know at what age. he achieved his level of talent, but you. know, he had a built-in situation with. his father and was the touring basist. and backup singer with Van Halen when he.

was like 16 years old and can play. everything. Like, I mean, he's he's not. just a guitar guy, but he can he plays. on his records with his band Mammoth. He. he plays it all. He plays the drums, he. plays the keyboards, he plays the bass, he plays the guitar, he does all the. singing. He's like, you know, he's a. prodigy and he had a built-in teacher as. a, you know, one of the greatest guitar. players of all time. >> I thought you were joking. I didn't. realize that Eddie Van Halen's son is. named Wolf Gang. I thought you were. making a joke about Mozart because.

>> Well, no. I mean, that is kind of funny. >> Well, Mozart's father is um he was a. music teacher as well. >> or musician. >> and his name was Eddie Van Halen, >> ironically, right? Uh, so yeah, if you. have a, like you said, a built-in family. member already that's that's knows what. they're doing and can teach you, at. least early on, um, that helps a lot. I. think also Picasso, his father was a art. instructor, but. >> Oh, I didn't know that. >> He uh, yeah, Picasso just excelled way.

beyond his father very very early on. I. think his father also kind of took that. a little personally. Seems like the. type. >> Yeah. And you know, there are some. exceptions here, like with everything. It's not like every single prodigy has. had the means and the resources and the. parents that threw everything at them to. try and help them. Uh, and one notable. exception Julia found was uh Bla1. Pascal, the French math prodigy. He was. born in 1623. And at the beginning of. his schooling, his dad, very famous.

mathematician, Etienne Pascal, uh, said, "I want my kid to learn more than math.". And math is is so interesting. If he. gets a hold of these math books, he's. he's going to ignore everything else. because math is so incredible. And so he. hid all the math books in his house. But. young Pascal um got an outdated math. book somehow that was in English even. though he only spoke French. And he was. so smart and such a prodigy, he u. translated that and reinvented parts of. that of of like geometry in that book.

that were that weren't in the book. >> Right. Yeah. He also came up with. probability theory later on like he he. was definitely a math prodigy and so he. overcame an absence of material. Um. there's also some good examples of. prodigies who overcame a uh like an. absence of resources, right? So like. they came from very poor families like. Stevie Wonder is a very good example of. that self-taught musician on all sorts.

of different um uh instruments. uh and. his parents did not have the resources. to buy him all these things. Uh there. was another guy from the turn of the. last century named Shinivasa Rammanujan. and he was very poor in India. Uh he. came from a very poor family and he like. bla1 Pascal got his hands on a outdated. math book and just taught himself math. and became um he ended up studying at. Cambridge. >> Yeah, for sure. I mean there are. definitely those examples. Um but there.

al there are also on the other side like. plenty of examples of you know the the. nurture thing going in a bad direction. >> Yeah. >> Uh where the parents have uh and I know. we we Julie didn't cover this but in our. book we covered Do you remember who. wrote that chapter by the way? >> I think it was yours. >> I think it was too long ago I don't. remember. >> I know what you mean. But I think it. might have been mine because I remember. very much wanting to include and did. include in the book the story of Todd.

Marinovich. >> who was a prod predigious quarterback. Um and another you know example is. Jennifer Capriyotti the tennis prodigy. like they were kids who. >> were both excelling to the point where. they were young teenagers and Sports. Illustrated being written about. >> and they were pushed by these uh. overbearing fathers in their case and. they both burned out and washed out and. ended up you know having uh problems. with drugs and problems with the law and. stuff like that. So there are some. pretty sad cases there where parents.

take what could potentially be a good. thing and just ruin it because they're. parents. You know, I was reading today. about Venus and Serena Williams and. their tennis prodigy um status, I guess. But um. >> yeah, >> uh Richard uh her their father, Richard. Williams, he had Venus turn pro at age. 14 because the USA was about to release. the Capriyotti rule, >> which was like you can't turn pro after.

a certain age because Jennifer. Capriyotti was such a cautionary tale. So, um, before the rule could be passed, Richard was like, "You're you're turning. pro now." And her debut, she beat number. 66 and almost beat number the top seated. player at her first her first. professional tournament, age 14. >> Yeah. Boy, those William sisters were. fun or still are fun to watch. Um, I. didn't uh see that movie. Did you? Uh, King Richard. >> Uh, no, I didn't.

>> Okay, moving on. Yeah, we have nothing to say about it. then apparently. >> Well, speaking of moving on, uh we're to. the point where we talk about when. you're not a prodigy anymore because you. mentioned early on, uh you know, once. you have mastered this thing, that's it. And a lot of times that is it. Uh some, you know, there are different stories. Some some flame out and and go down a. bad road. Uh, some go on to have, you. know, great careers doing their thing, like you mentioned Mozart, obviously, but some go on to have great careers and.

it's not like a super famous situation. like Mozart, but they they do great for. themselves. But, you know, it's like. being a child movie star. Like, once you. reach a certain age, that sort of uh. appeal might be over the adorableness of. the kid that can play the piano at 10. years old, >> right? >> And you're just an adult who can play. the piano really well, and all of a. sudden, you're not special anymore, and. you can that can lead to a big fall. >> Yeah. Yeah. It can because you're. essentially, especially at the early on. in the 20th century when the papers.

would track you down and and ask your. opinion as a child prodigy, you were a. child star essentially. And that is not. something that society has figured out. how to. >> handle properly. >> We don't know what to do with child. stars. So instead, we just chew them up. and spit them out and say, "Good luck. We don't need you any longer." That same. effect in general can happen to child. prodigies. And one really good example. is Bobby Fischer. He's he's the he's the. cautionary tale for child prodigies and.

how bad things can get after you're not. a prodigy anymore. >> Yeah, for sure. He was the chess. prodigy. Um I've recommended it before, but the great great film Searching for. Bobby Fischer is so so good. >> Highly recommended. But he was born in. Chicago in the 40s. uh was playing. competitive chess by the age of eight. and won the US Open at 14 and became the. youngest international grandmaster at 15. years old in 1958. Uh 15 years old in 6. months. But when he when his career.

fell, uh he fell hard and spent a couple. of decades um roaming around Southern. California destitute. He spent nine. months in a Japanese prison and is kind. of known, you know, for the last couple. of decades of his life as being a pretty. hateful anti-semite. >> Yeah. Yeah. He um he I don't know if he. had a blog or something like that, but. after 9/11, he like um he publicly. celebrated it on his blog. Like he. >> he really just took some seriously weird.

turns. Um, and yeah, he was he's just a. great example of how bad things can get. after societyy's done with you and. you're not you're not useful anymore, not adorable or or noteworthy. I think. also he he clearly had some um mental. health issues that were. >> Yeah. >> Probably going to to um emerge either. way, but. >> yeah. Yeah. >> Being a child prodigy and just such it's. such a weird way to grow up that could. not have helped at all.

>> Yeah. Uh, and you know, there are other. cases of kids, and here's a piece of. advice. You can do what you want if you. got a really pretty genius kid, but. don't send your kid to college at like. 12 years old. >> No, I just I don't see that ever leading. to good things. I I think you should try. and normalize a child's childhood as. much as possible, even if they're, you. know, unchallenged in school. There. other ways that you can foster that, I. think, besides saying you're going to. Harvard at 11 and you're going to be in. the newspapers for that. the case of. Elizabeth Benson, uh she was a 214 plus.

IQ kid who went to college at 12 and. graduated and disappeared. And later on. there was one of those like where are. they now articles and um and this is no. shade at somebody who's a cashier. Uh. it's a fine job and we need cashiers. But um the article very much was like. this former child prodigy is now just a. cashier and that was sort of how it was. framed. >> Yeah. But despite that, she kept like. batting away that that kind of sentiment.

and just talking about how happy she. was. She's she was married. Um she was. very happy with her very normal life. with her very normal husband. And um. this is a person like a 214. It has a. plus next to it, which might as well be. an asterisk. >> She scored perfectly on an IQ test. And. the reason that plus is there is because. they imagined she could have kept going, but they ran out of questions. Yeah. Anybody got a question? >> Yeah. So, she and she even considered. herself in the article. She said, you.

know, based on the stories of some of my. peers, like I actually got off pretty. well. Like I'm happy with life as an. adult. Right. >> But yeah, she's she's an example of one. that went pretty well. But the best that. you could do if you don't eventually. turn into an adult who starts. contributing greatly to your fields of. interest like Mozart, like John von. Newman, like Pablo Picasso. The best you. can hope for is to lead a normal life as. an adult. You know,

>> I keep I keep thinking you're gonna say. John Bonjobi every time. >> I know. I keep wanting to call him. Johan, too, and it's not. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Uh, you you mentioned. uh Wifred Sackville Stoner Jr. early on. She was a language prodigy uh in the. early 20 20th century. Um, probably most. famous for uh in 1492. Columbus, the ocean blue was written by. Wifford Sack Phil Stoner Jr. >> But her mom was one of those parents. that really really pushed her apparently.

>> uh and gained a lot of fame like the. mother did. She wrote books about it was. sort of like uh Royal Tannon Bombs when. um Ethylene Tannon Bomb, you know, talked about her prodigious family of of. children. Um and I think we mentioned. the Tannon Bombs in the book of course. because I wrote that chapter and that's. one of my favorite movies. But. >> so good. >> Uh the mom gained a lot of attention and. uh was on the like the lecture circuit. and stuff like that. >> And the the daughter was like, you know, take my advice, dear mothers. spare your.

children from so-called fame, which. easily turns to shame, and be happy if. you have a happy, healthy, contented boy. or girl. >> Amen to that. >> Yeah, it's great advice. Great advice. So, if you have a child prodigy uh on. your hands, tread carefully, consult. experts, maybe get in touch with Ellen. Winter. I'm sure she'd be very happy to. to speak with you and tell you what not. to do. Um, and so there you go. That's. our annual dose of advice for the um.

parents of child prodigies. >> Yeah. And I also want to say I bet it's. not the easiest thing though uh to be. fair to parents. You know, it's it puts. them in a tough position if your kid is. obsessed with this one thing and clearly. super gifted. >> because you don't want to squash that. So, it's a it's a tight rope you're. walking there. So, you know, I get it. >> Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's not a. position I would necessarily want to be. in, but. >> heck no. You got some really great. fodder for your um your annual Christmas. letter that you send out with your. Christmas card. >> Yeah, for sure. >> You want to make your uh your sister in.

Boise um feel jealous. You talk about. you talk about your child prodigy and. what they're doing. >> Yeah, I've only known one person in my. life that does that and that is uh in. Emily's family. >> Uh her aunt Peg sends out the annual. Christmas sort of family ketchup thing. Mh. >> And I've always just been delighted to. read it and thought it was super cool. and wonder why no one in my lousy family. ever cared enough to do anything like. >> that's a very so hyo thing to do. >> Oh, is it okay? >> Yeah, for sure. >> I get it. >> Uh before we uh go on to listener mail,

Chuck, I just want to point out a couple. of at least one good band and album. name, Rage to Master. >> Oh, very nice. >> And then I think you could make a pretty. good Bonjovi tribute band with Johan. Bonjovi, right? or John von Yohi. >> Yeah, there you go. John von Newman. >> No one would get that except for stuff. you should know. Listeners. >> Yeah, that's true. >> What were you going to say? Cuz I wanted. >> No, you know what I You know what I was. going to say. >> You You say it.

>> Bada bing, bada boom, bonjobi. >> And there Chuck has unlocked listener. mail. >> Uh this is a correction of sorts. And. this is something I didn't know. I'm. glad to know. Uh, when we did our USA ID. episode, we were talking about condoms. for Gaza. >> Mhm. >> Uh, this is from Bernie. He said, "I. think you guys did a great job. Just. wanted to clarify something. The $50. million for condoms was not for Gaza is. in Gaza next to Israel. It was for Gaza. province in Mosamb beek. Uh, Elon Musk. even corrected this in one of his weird.

Oval Office press conferences. But as. you said, the sound bite had already. gone out and people did not want to hear. any retraction to what they now believe. >> So glad so glad you guys covered this. topic. is so important globally. As. someone who's been in this line of work. for my entire adult life, this episode. really hit home to me. Keep up the great. work. All the best, Bernie F. Chavez. >> Thanks a lot, Bernie. Uh, that was very. gentle correction and we appreciate. those rather than I can't believe you. guys screwed this up this badly, which. we get once in a while, but for the most.

part, we hear gentle corrections like. Bernie. So, hats off to you and thanks. for setting us straight, Bernie. >> Yeah. >> Uh, if you want to be like Bernie and. send us an email, you can. and you can. send it off to stuffodcast@. iheartradio.com. [Music]. >> Stuff you should know is a production of. iHeart Radio. For more podcasts, iHeart. Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple. Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your. favorite shows. [Music].