AQ Khan: How to Live Dangerously | STUFF YOU SHOULD KNOW

Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a. production of iHeart Radio. Hey, and welcome into the podcast. I'm. Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here, too. And this is Stuff You Should Know, foreign policy edition. >> That's right. Take it away. >> Okay, so Chuck, we're talking today. Well, let me start differently. Chuck. >> Yes. Have you ever met AQ Con?

>> I had never heard of AQ Con. >> What do you think of him now? >> Uh, yeah. You know, seems like a guy. that that uh made a lot of money helping. countries develop their nuclear program. >> Sure. But I think that leaves out some. very important stuff. This was in. flagrant violation of UN. non-prololiferation treaties. It was. generally illegal. And he was even doing. it on the side. He had an underground.

clandestine proliferation network which. is I mean that's very few people have. ever done that in in the world. And over. here in the west Chuck he's viewed as a. villain and in other parts of the world. especially Pakistan where he's from he's. he's hailed as a hero. He's very. complex, complicated, and at the end of. the day, he may essentially be generally. a fall guy for a much larger cabal of. people who are actually doing this.

>> Yeah, for sure. Um, I guess we can go. back and talk a little bit about his his. how he got there, right? >> Yeah, I think so. uh he was born in India in 1936 and in. 1952 uh moved to West Pakistan and he. was into metallurgy and studied at a few. different universities in a few. different countries. He eventually. graduated initially in 1960 from the. University of Karach. Uh but then got a. a doctorate in metallurgical engineering. in 1972. Mhm.

>> Um, in that time he got married, had a. couple of daughters. uh and then eventually found his way. with his family uh in the early '7s in. the Netherlands uh working for a company. called Physical Dynamic Research. Laboratory which was doing uranium. enrichment. uh for another company called Urinco. which was a consortium of a few. different countries Britain uh Germany. and the Netherlands and they were, you.

know, they were running ultra. centrifuges and he was pretty good at. snooping around it seems like. >> Yeah. an ultra centrifuge or centrifuge. is in general is used to enrich uranium. and you enrich uranium to a certain. extent uh to use for nuclear power but. if you keep going you can use that. enriched uranium for nuclear bombs right. so I think that these companies were. doing this for for power uh for power. generation but regardless he wasn't a. particularly like brilliant physicist or.

metallergist or anything like that he. was just kind of a dude he just had a um. a will that was unlike other people's. typically. So when he started out, he. had a very low-level security clearance, but he very quickly like started making. waves and catching the attention of the. Dutch intelligence agencies for asking a. lot of questions that did not have much. of anything to do with the work he was. supposed to be doing. >> Yeah. So they started monitoring him. Uh.

and this is something that kind of. continued at least at least as far as. Dutch intelligence. And then you know. eventually other countries would start. monitoring as well because. >> uh you know like I said he got pretty. good at snooping around. >> And uh in 1971 there was a conflict. between uh east and west Pakistan. And. that led to a a pretty brief war uh with. India. And just for our purposes, what. that eventually meant was um Khan and.

and a lot of Pakistan were kind of. humiliated at the whole thing and were. like we're still under the thumb of. India here and kind of just sort of got. that um I guess national um Pakistani. pride going as you know wanting to get. out from under that thumb. Yeah, I saw. that that in that 13-day war, um, Pakistan lost half its navy, a quarter. of its air force, and a third of its. army. So, it was very much a humiliating. defeat. Um, and yeah, I saw that up to.

this point, AQ was just an generally. average person, but that seemed to have. really started to get him going. So, he. decided he was going to use what. expertise he had to help build a bomb. for Pakistan. So he wrote a letter to. the prime minister of Pakistan uh. Zulfakar Ali Bhau who was running the. show at the time and said, "Hey, I'm I. want to help build a nuclear bomb for. Pakistan. We clearly need one." And if. you step back and look at it, Chuck,

like this is just some random dude that. the prime minister had never heard of. who wrote him a letter and said like, "Hey, let's build a bomb." And I heard. the first time he was ignored and the. second time they're like, "All right, let's see what this guy has to say.". >> Yeah. because he was lobbying for uh. uranium. I mean that was his expertise. was enriching uranium and at the time uh. Pakistan was trying to enrich uh and. produce plutonium and he was like that's. not the way uranium is the way to go and. just a couple of months after that Bhau.

met with him and over about the next 11. or 12 months Khan was like all right I'm. going to make a little grocery shopping. list. >> uh of what we need the parts that we. need to get a nuclear program started. here in earnest and I'm going to make a. list of companies and suppliers. and uh who can get us this stuff. And he. he basically got all of this information. while he was working for that Dutch. company like you know making copies of. blueprints and sneaking them out and. supply list suppliers list and stuff.

like that. >> Yeah. He he was very well known around. the office for being like making copies. >> Yeah. >> So he um wow I just dated myself. Um can. we just do a little science minute off. to the side? >> Sure. So you said that um that there was. a a course that Pakistan was already on. for um making a bomb out of plutonium, right? AQ Khan was all about enriching. uranium. Those are two routes you can. use to make a nuclear bomb. And the. background in training Khan had was in.

uranium enrichment. And he loved to like. talk trash about plutonium and the. people in Pakistan running the plutonium. program. But just the upshot of it is. this. If you want to um get weapons. grade uranium, you need about 90% pure. uranium. In nature, um the U235. uh uranium that you're looking for. occurs about 3/4 of a percent of any. natural lump of uranium. So there's two. ways to get that purified U235. One is.

enrichment where you spin it in. centrifuges that go so fast that it. actually separates the different kinds. of uranium isotopes and then you just. kind of siphon off the stuff you want. Or with plutonium you bombard it with. neutron so that uranium 238 eventually. turns into 239 decays into neptunium and. then plutonium. They're both like great. ways of creating nuclear material to. blow up the world with, but they're just. two totally different tracks.

>> Yeah. So, we did a whole episode on. that. If you're interested in like the. finer details, seek that one out. >> Was that the one that we did after. Fukushima? >> Uh, I don't know, but we did a whole. episode on how to that whole process. I. can't remember what it was called, though. >> Well, I can't help but talk about it. I. love that for some reason. It really. like tickles me. >> Yeah. So, in October of 75, um the Dutch. authorities, who had been watching him. this whole time, noting all this sort of. suspicious stuff that he was doing at. work, said, "Uh, all right. Um, we're.

going to transfer you out of these. enrichment projects because we think. you're uh you know, you're you're. clearly some sort of a a snoop or a. threat or something." And just a couple. of months after that in I guess late. 1975 in December um he left the company. altogether and had you know basically. under his in his banker's box on the way. out the door. >> he had a bunch of sensitive documents uh. blueprints and those supplier list and.

he said don't bother looking in these. banker boxes the lid is on. >> right he just kind of vanished and. showed back up in Pakistan and he was. very quickly put in charge of the. uranium project and um there was a guy. named Manir Ahmad Khan who was. essentially his rival in in the quest to. build Pakistan a bomb. Uh the other Khan. was involved in the plutonium uh wing of. the whole thing. Khan eventually got BH. and then the guy who overthrew BH uh. over to his side in favor of uranium.

enrichment but also in favor of AQ Khan. From what I could tell, he had a really. big ego and uh he wanted to be like the. top dog in getting uh Pakistan the bomb. And so he was working on the project. called project 706. It was the uranium. enrichment project. And um by 1982 I. think they they uh managed to produce. the highlyenriched uranium that you need. to make a bomb. Very very small amount. at first. You need a several kilograms.

to actually make a bomb. But they were. successful at doing it through that. uranium enrichment program by 1982 for. the first time. >> Yeah. And as they're doing this, they're. also researching how to get this thing. into a missile. So, you know, as you'll. see, uh I mean, if you just look back at. the history of of uh enriching uranium. or um for nuclear energy, it's usually a. country is like, hey, you know, we just. want to have a nuclear uh energy company. and we want to get up to speed on that.

But what they're also trying to do uh is. get a nuclear bomb. >> They're also making copies. >> Yeah. It kind of just happens over and. over and over where they're like, "No, no, no. We just want nuclear energy. Um. and don't worry about what's in that. bunker over there.". >> Right. And again, I kind of I mentioned. it at the outset. The reason that. countries have to do it like that is. because there's a huge treaty from the. 60s that said, "Okay, the people who. already have the bomb, they're agreeing. to disassemble it. people who don't have.

the bomb, they're going to agree not to. seek the bomb. And it's still in effect. and it's still enforced. So that's why. you have to do it. Right. Exactly. But. it's it's just been so um just kind of. nibbled at and worn down and just. flagrantly ignored that it doesn't. really seem to have that much teeth. But. I guess it's enough to make countries. feel like they have to be subversive. when they're trying to create a nuclear. weapons program. >> Yeah, exactly. Um so while he's doing.

all this and you you mentioned at the. beginning that he had a side gig um you. know getting rich off of selling these. secrets and blueprints and helping other. countries you know get in touch with the. right uh as you'll see he worked with a. lot of middlemen over the years uh and. spoke a bunch of different languages so. he was really kind of the perfect dude. to do this and while he was doing this. he developed a that side gig as. importing and exporting all these. components and plans that you know some. of which he just outright stole.

>> Yeah. And he was able to do this in. large part because he had by this time. garnered so much respect in Pakistan. among the leadership of Pakistan. emerging as the guy who was um giving. the bomb or developing the bomb for. Pakistan um that they just weren't they. were like just go here's a blank check. do whatever you need to do. So he. started ordering doubles of the stuff. >> Yeah. that P he was he needed to set up. Pakistan's uranium enrichment program. and then he would take the stuff that he.

didn't need and turn around and and. essentially reverse the way that it got. there. He would use Pakistani military. planes, cargo planes to take those. parts, the extra parts back to middlemen. and then he'd tell the middlemen what. buyers to to direct it to and then he. pocket the money. >> Yeah. And it was very lucrative as as. we'll see. He ended up making a ton of. money doing this. Um, he ended up having. a few kind of major clients. No one. really knows how many countries he.

really dealt with because I think they. found out he traveled to, you know, many. more countries than uh they officially. sort of accused him of dealing with. >> Uh, but the first country to step up uh. and say, "Hey, I really want to do. business with you." Uh, was Iran. And. this was in 1987. He helped them build uh up to 50,000. centrifuges. Uh P1 types, Pakistan one, um there are a couple of different. types. Uh the Pakistan one and the and.

the P2, the Pakistan 2. Uh those the P2s. are much faster. And the belief at the. time is that he was just kind of sending. the stuff that they didn't need anymore. to Iran and it was kind of outdated. equipment that wasn't going to help them. that much. >> Yeah, for sure. Um that's how it started. out. Um they were they because Pakistan. upgraded their setup from what I saw. Um. and the reason why you would need 50,000. centrifuges. uh is because when you when you spin. that uranium to separate it and you.

siphon off the stuff you want, you have. to do it again and again and again and. again. It can take weeks and months and. sometimes years depending on what kind. of centrifuges you're working with. But. if you have 50,000 centrifuges like Iran. supposedly got, you can make a lot of of. highlyenriched uranium fairly fast, which led me to wonder, Chuck, like what. what is taking Iran so long? If they. still don't have a nuke and they started. in 1987, what's what's the deal there? And the.

best answer I could come up with is that. back in the 90s, the Ayatollah issued a. fatwa, like a ruling on Sharia law that. basically said no nukes. Iran's not. going to have any nukes. And that it. wasn't until 2024 that Iran said that. they were starting to rethink it. So I. guess it's because the leadership said. they weren't going to have nukes. That. is the reason Iran doesn't have a nuke. right now. >> Yeah. Interesting. >> I thought so, too. So he was dealing. with their government supposedly until.

1991. Uh there was a final shipment of. the P1s, but other uh people have said. no no that continued for at least. another four years through the mid90s. and those P2 centes started flowing in. Um Iran wanted this u potential bomb. because they were at war with Iraq at. the time in the 80s over the course of. about eight years. So Khan over the. businessman was like, "Hey, Iraq, um, I've been helping Iran develop their.

program. You you could probably use a. little of my help in, uh, stolen. documents as well.". >> Yeah. What's crazy is Iraq was like very. suspicious of this from the outset. Um, and I guess they asked for a sample and. they couldn't find what sample they were. given. Just that Khan was like, "Don't. taste this. That's not that kind of. sample.". >> Right. And um. >> your dab your pinky in it. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Put it on your tongue. It's. >> like don't do that. Um so I guess Iraq. thought that this was some sort of maybe.

international UN sting operation and. then around the same time the first Gulf. War broke out and they were like we. don't have time for this. So they moved. on and um I guess he never managed to to. get a bomb or the the information Iraq. needed to Iraq. >> Yeah. But there were uh documents that. said, "Hey, this will, you know, the. paperwork was there. This will cost you. 5 million bucks and a 10% commission on. materials, right, >> through my network, so I can, you know,

pay people off basically." Uh but yeah, like you said, it it it seems like it. never ended up happening. And Iraq was. probably wise to think that that was a. sting operation even though it wasn't. Well, what something I saw that was kind. of funny was Iran paid $3 million for. theirs and they actually were like 10%. commission that seems steep. So they. they went and um started calling up the. list of suppliers that AQ Con had for. them rather than dealing with him. because they were bargain shopping for. their nuclear program apparently.

>> Well, maybe that has something to do. with it too. It. >> could be. Their nuclear centrifuges were. held together with bubble gum and duct. tape. Uh should we take a break? >> Yeah, let's. >> All right. We'll come back and talk. about a couple of more clients right. after this. [Music].

Joshua. [Music]. >> All right, so we're back and we promised. to talk about new clients. Um, this is. where North Korea enters a picture. Uh, it's the mid90s and with the deal with. the United States. North Korea said, "You know what? We're going to stop. building our nuclear reactors. We're.

going to stop producing plutonium." Um, again, we're just trying to get nuclear. energy going. But all right, we'll we'll. stop doing that. Um, but what we're. really going to do is very quietly start. looking to uh continue that process just. on the down low. >> Right. But Kim Jong- Il had his fingers. crossed behind his back, so none of that. counted. >> That's right. And so who do they turn. to? Of course, they turned to Pakistan. and Aqon. >> Yeah. So um and this is where it really. seems like Pakistan Pakistani officials.

were definitely involved in this even. though later on as we'll see they're. like we had nothing to do with this but. the but Pakistan conducted its first. nuclear test in 1998 which really. surprised the world and even more. dramatically they did it in response to. a test that India had carried out two. weeks before. >> and during this test one of the um. groups that was there was a delegation. of North Koreans who were invited to. watch the whole thing. And the um common.

wisdom among the intelligence community. is that this was a group of nuclear. scientists from North Korea's nuclear. program who are basically being, you. know, run through the motions of how. this is working. I don't know if we said. or not. Also, AQ Khan was known to have. gone to North Korea at least 13 times. that were documented. Um something. really weird happened during this. nuclear test with the North Korean. delegation though and that was that one. of them a a woman who was among this. group um died mysteriously. She was shot.

uh and eventually sent back to North. Korea. Her her body was but on the cargo. plane were centrifuges and other things. for um North Korea's nuclear program. too. >> Yeah. Was that just like, hey, we've got. this plane going, so why don't we just. double dip and and get some stuff moved. while we're transporting this body? >> Maybe Pakistan is uh they bargain shop. as well. >> Right. So, uh like you said, he went to North.

Korea at least 13 times that. intelligence knows about and while he. was helping North Korea sort of develop. their enrichment program, they were. supplying Pakistan. It was, you know, a. a bit of a quidd proquo. >> Uh they're like, "Hey, we've got. long-distance missile technology that. you don't have." And so we're perfect. bedfellows here. >> Yeah. And so they got the missiles from. North Korea through a guy named Kang. He. was uh on paper the dipl the ambassador.

to Pakistan for North Korea. In reality, he was the husband of the woman who was. murdered. She turned out to be murdered. during the missile test because she was. spying for the US. But her husband. managed to hang in there and it turns. out he was an arms dealer for North. Korea. He was the one who provided the. missiles. So again, all this time North. Korea is saying like we don't have a. nuclear program. Pakistan's like we. don't even know what anybody's talking. about. This is all in retrospect like. this is not on a lot of people's radar. right now. As a matter of fact, AQ Khan.

was on the radar of international. intelligence communities again all the. way back to the what the 70s when the. Dutch started watching him. But somehow. someway the int the global intelligence. community missed the fact that he was a. rogue nuclear weapons technology. salesman, which is the one of the. weirdest things ever. But it turned out. that it was his uh next um business. venture in Libya that led to his.

downfall. >> Yeah. I mean there were, you know, later. on they were they were like, "Yeah, we. knew he was ordering double the amount. of everything. >> and we just couldn't figure out why, >> right? It makes zero. There's a lot. about this that just really smells like. a kind of a poorly constructed coverup. internationally, not just from. Pakistan.". >> Yeah, for sure. Um so yeah the the next. uh client stepped forward and that was. uh Libya and this was in the late 90s. like 199697.

uh he started trading centrifuges and. the and the equipment and the components. um getting them over to Libya. Uh this. um there's a guy here named Peter. Griffin not what you're thinking from. Family Guy. >> is a real life human. It was a British. engineer who was involved in this. operation who was like man I've been. I've been giving uh or not giving but. I've been selling material to Pakistan. for you know 20 years or more like this. has been going on for a long time.

>> Yeah. And that was a huge thing that. allowed this to go on is like the. international community would ban parts. for like centrifuges or breeder reactors. that you made plutonium with. And then. people like EQ would be like well fine. we're going to start shipping the parts. to make those parts and then assemble. the parts at the at the end. So, they. were legitimately allowed to do this. stuff. It was just they still had to. fake what the overall purpose was. So, yeah, guys like Peter Griffin were like, I actually wasn't breaking any laws. It.

was more like a international moray that. was broken where he knew he was helping. um states that should not have nuclear. bombs get nuclear bombs essentially. Yeah, for sure. So, Peter Griffin. Peter. Griffin. >> There's just no way couldn't do. something. >> I guess that was uh Oh, what's the guy's. name? I haven't watched Family Guy in so. long. >> Cleveland. >> Peta. >> Cleveland. Yeah, that's right. >> So, Peter Griffin was uh a partner in.

with a company from Dubai. And in 2001, they placed a bunch of orders for these. parts that they needed uh with a. Malaysian company. And that company spun. off a subsidiary and they hired workers. and brought in, you know, all this. equipment and brought brought in a bunch. of new tools uh to start sort of, you. know, turning this into a real program. And Khan was like, for my part, you. know, I've got all these blueprints um. to show you how to put this, you know, big Lego machine together.

>> And he sent at least one engineer, so. like active involvement sending. engineers to Dubai to like make sure. they were doing everything correctly. So. like deep involvement at this point. >> Yeah. Huge. So he had like middlemen. from Europe. He had designers from. Switzerland. He had companies that were. set up to build the parts that were um. being shipped from Turkey from Malaysia. to Turkey to Dubai where they were. repackaged and sent on to Libya. It was. a huge network. Also, I forgot to say. earlier, by this time, uh, the Con.

network had their own sales brochures. that they used to hand out at arm sales. fairs, which apparently they have arm. sales fairs, but they have brochures by. this point. That's how that's how um, set up they were, I guess, how. established that's what I was going for. So, it was a huge huge network, but it. was one of these shipments that somehow. got intercepted in I think 2003 aboard. the um a ship called the BBC China, which as far as I know doesn't have. anything to do with the BBC. Um, and.

that was the thing that that brought the. whole thing down eventually. Uh, Chuck, I proposed that since I. remembered the word established, that. kind of says we should take a break. >> All right, we'll be right back. [Music].

Joshua. [Music]. So um the whole thing came down with. that Libya thing. Remember they had this. amazing network going all these amazing. um all this amazing subtrifuge going and. somehow I don't know how um but a. particular shipment aboard a ship called.

the BBC China was um captured in I think. leaving Dubai uh on route to Libya. And. at this point, um, AQ Con had basically. been under great suspicion. I think he. was being investigated by CIA and MI6 at. the same time. But there wasn't a lot. you could do about this. Um, if you were. the US, because you needed Pakistan at. the time, as we'll talk about in a. second, but when this shipment was. found, and it was a massive shipment for.

of centrifuges going to Libya, it was. just all out in the open now. There was. just no denying it. Even Pakistan. couldn't protect AQN anymore. >> Yeah, for sure. And like you said, it. was pretty complicated. I mean, it it's. always been fairly complicated with the. US and Pakistan as being like sometimes. bedfellows uh because they were um. necessary for the US until they weren't. and then you know that's when the US. could take action. But uh in the 80s you. know we were supplying military aid to. Pakistan uh to help support the fight.

against Soviets in Afghanistan. So we. couldn't really, you know, even though. we intelligence services knew that they. had a nuclear program going and even. where that technology was coming from, there wasn't a lot we could do at the. time. Uh in the mid '80s, they cuh. Congress threatened to cut off that. military aid unless Reagan uh could. promise that they didn't um they weren't. producing nuclear weapons. And so for 5. years uh from 85 to 90 I guess Reagan. and George HW Bush would certify that.

Pakistan didn't have a nuclear weapons. program and then in 1990 um once the. Soviets were out of Afghanistan. coincidentally um not really Bush said. you know what I'm not going to sign that. certification anymore and we're going to. stop the flow of aid to Pakistan. >> Yeah. uh which is I mean talk about a. screw job but uh apparently Chuck we. were so in bed with Pakistan during the. Soviet occupation of Afghanistan that we. were flying YouTube bomber flights to. surveil Russia out of Pakistan. We had.

an NSA listening station there. Like we. needed them big time. Um but once we. didn't anymore, we could start to press. them on AQ and uh that was when this uh. this whole thing started to kind of fall. apart. But again, it wasn't until 2003. that the BBC China was intercepted and. the whole thing was was on the table. But by this time, the pressure that the. US had been putting on Pakistan was. enough that um the president at the.

time, Perves Musharif, um who was uh the. president of Pakistan around the time of. 9/11 and the subsequent invasion of. Afghanistan, um he he essentially was like, "Okay, I've got to do something." So he. dismissed Khan um from the the research. laboratories that by this time bore his. own name. They were called the Dr. AQ. Khan Research Laboratories, the National. Nuclear Research Laboratories in. Pakistan. Um and they were like, "You're.

not the director of those anymore, but. we're still friends, so you can be a. government advisor.". >> Yeah. I mean, that's I don't know. I. don't know enough about it, but that. seemed to be uh very much just sort of. like, "Hey, look what we're doing. We're. we're saying he doesn't have that job. anymore. >> 100%. >> Right. Isn't that what was going on? >> Yeah. And the US had to put up with it. because by this time we were in. Afghanistan and we needed Pakistan just. as much as we did when the Soviets were. in Afghanistan because no one learns.

from history. >> That's right. Uh so after that um 2003. um cargo ship um exposure I guess. uh in. December of that year, that's when uh. Gaddafi of Libya said, "All right, you. know what? I'm gonna shut down our. nuclear program. I'm really sorry. United States didn't mean it." Um and. really sold Khan down the river and. said, "This is the guy. He's been. supplying us with materials." Uh and and. we're friends, right? >> Yeah. Um apparently Gaddafi was really.

really worried after the US invaded Iraq. that he was going to be next. And he was. right, but it was eight years down the. road. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> but I guess he um he went so far as to. show them um like centrifuge labs that. were described or disguised as chicken. farms. And the whole time he's like, "It. was Khan. It was Khan. It was Khan." And. he gave MI6 and the CIA um documents on. how to build a nuclear warhead that he. said Khan had given him. So he really. sold them down the river. And by this.

point, um, the CIA chief at the time, George Tennant, had enough to go to. Perves Masharf and was like, "It's not. enough to fire this guy from his job.". Like, he's an international nuclear. proliferation dealer um, and you need to. do something much more um, pronounced. And, uh, Musharov said, "Okay, I got it. I got it. We're going to um, make him. apologize and we're going to put him. under house arrest and then four days. after that, I'm going to pardon him.". What do you think?

>> Yeah. Uh they put him on TV. He did. confess. He did apologize. He did all. that stuff. Said he was um he he took. the fall. He said, you know, I wasn't. acting on uh the direction of of my. government. Uh I was doing this on my. own. And um you know, I think everyone. even at the time kind of saw through. that. Um he would pardon him. I mean the. initial arrest was like a real arrest. but then he pardoned him and put him. under house arrest. >> and during that whole time though.

Pakistan was still like no CIA you can't. like uh same with the international. atomic energy agency you can't come in. here and ask him questions directly like. we're still shielding him from you. >> Yeah and they continue to even after. they let him out of house arrest. Um, I. I also saw one other little note. He had. a a jasmine shrub trimmed in the shape. of a topiary mushroom cloud outside of. his house. >> Did he really? Or is that a joke? >> No. Well, at least as far as I think. Time magazine reported back in 2005, he.

did. >> That's the one time I thought you were. actually thought you were pulling my leg. and it was the truth. So, I don't even. know what to think about. >> I like to mix it up and keep you. guessing, buddy. Got to keep you on your. toes. >> Uh, yeah. Uh people from uh Walt Disney. World actually came and did that. >> Is that true? >> The best. >> No. >> So uh in 2008 the Pakistani government. said you know this is internally of. course they were like hey we should. let's just get them out of house arrest.

too because this is all just for show. anyway. Right. >> Right. >> And the US was trying to work with. Pakistan at the time to fight against al. Qaeda. So again, we were in a position. as the US to we couldn't publicly come. out and say, "Oh, like you can't like. let this guy out of house arrest because. once again, we needed Pakistan." We did. And um Seymour Hirs, the very very very. famous investigative reporter who broke. the Milai massacre and that um Osama bin. Laden had been assassinated and so on.

uh he reported back in 2005 that the US. went along with it because Pakistan. agreed to hand over all of the. information they had on the nuclear. program they had helped Iran start to. build. And so the US was like, "Okay, that's a deal. We'll we'll take your. Iranian secrets and then we'll just kind. of look the other way." And the slap on. the wrist that you guys are giving AQ. >> Yeah. It's so interesting like with the. recent uh stuff with the US and Iran. Um.

like when people try to argue about. what's going on and they say no, it's. because of this thing that happened. under Biden or Obama or no, it's Trump's. fault. It's like this stuff goes back. decades and decades. If you really want. to trace back to like the origins of all. these issues, you know, >> back to. >> it's like you can't just look you can't. look Yeah. You can't look back at one. previous administration if you really. want to investigate the the true roots. of this stuff. It's interesting. >> because you had Carter getting in bed. with Pakistan because the um the. Russians invaded Afghanistan under his.

watch. You had Reagan and then HW Bush. certifying every year lying that um. Pakistan didn't have a program and so on. and so forth. And yeah, that's actually. a really important point. One of the. reasons AQ Khan was allowed to continue. proliferating um nuclear programs to. countries the US don't want to have. nuclear programs is because the US. looked the other way on it. That's a. huge factor in his success. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um eventually he was.

fully released in 2009. and they still said hey you can't like. you said they you can't interview him. even now that he's that he's out uh you. know United States or you know uh. international nuclear commissions like. just stay away from him. >> and there are a lot of Pakistanis that. think he's a hero like he came out later. on and even though he he took the fall. uh he came out later and was basically. like you know uh like why should a have.

all the nukes. Why why should those. original five countries have all this. power? Uh he had a quote that said, "Are. these bastards god-appointed guardians. of the world to stockpile hundreds of. thousands of nuclear warheads? And have. they god-given authority to carry out. explosions every month?" So he this was. in uh an op-ed in Darpie magazine, a. German magazine. So he's very much a. hero to a lot of people in Pakistan. still for sort of saying, "Hey, Muslim. countries need to have the same weapons. that you guys have.".

>> Yeah. And like we talked about all the. way back in the 70s, patriotism. certainly seems to have motivated him. for sure. He also and money. >> Yeah. He also made a lot of money. I saw. an estimate that at his peak he was. worth about $400 million. >> Yeah. Yeah. And bear in mind, he's on. paper still just a civil servant, a a. scientist, a highly respected scientist, but he works for the government and now. he's worth $400 million. >> Um, he died. >> He owned a hotel. >> He did in Molly. And I looked it up and. it only has like 2.6 out of five stars.

on um, Trip Advisor. >> Doesn't look that nice. Um, but yeah, it's in Timbuktu. >> and I guess it's in competition to the. Biospherians Hotel. They had one in. Timbuktu, right? That's right. Yep. >> I thought of that immediately. I guess. that's a place to open a hotel if you. want to, you know, feel out the hotelier. hotelier waters. >> If you want to get your feet wet, for. sure. >> Yeah, exactly. Uh he eventually passed. away. Uh AQon died in October 2021. Uh.

apparently died of COVID 19 and he got a. full military funeral even though he. was, you know, not a part of their. military. No, but that really goes to. show what a national hero he was. considered then and now. This is 2021. Um, I think to me the biggest. the biggest shock of all this is that he. managed to live to be an old man and die. of COVID. like the fact that he wasn't. assassinated during his his uh career.

when he was putting out brochures for. his services and the fact that he wasn't. assassinated by the Pakistani military. because they were worried he was going. to start pointing fingers like it's nuts. this guy managed to stay alive but he. did and he was a public figure too he. used to write op-eds in the newspaper. once in a while um he was like a public. intellectual in Pakistan he was a he was. a big deal um throughout his life it's. not like he went into hiding. He did the. opposite. Yeah. You know,

>> very interesting. >> And then one thing I saw though, the. irony of all this is that supposedly his. um technology didn't work all that well. North Korea ended up abandoning the. centrifuge program in favor of um. plutonium. And I think even Pakistan's. arsenal is largely based on plutonium. now rather than highlyenriched uranium. >> Yeah. I wonder if that was uh any kind. of ruse on his part, but it seemed like. he really did believe in uranium.

>> Yeah. And it does work. I I think who. knows, maybe it's just harder to do when. you have to keep it secret. I don't. know. >> Yeah. I don't know. >> But one other thing I want to shout out, there's a Adam Curtis uh documentary. Remember, he's the one who did the. Century of the Self that we talked a lot. about in the PR episode. >> Uhhuh. He did one called. hypernormalization and it covers a lot. of Gaddafi in Libya throughout the years. and his relationship with the US and. basically makes the the um has the. theory that Gaddafi was essentially a a.

international punching bag for the US. for show that the the US beat up on kind. of with his agreement Tessa agreement um. because the US wasn't able or didn't. think it was able to take on the real. issue. in the Middle East, which was. Syria, the real strong man in the Middle. East. So, they made Gaddafi look like a. strong man that he wasn't, so that they. could pummel him uh in the public sphere. and look like they were doing something.

about Middle East problems at the time. >> Uh I'll say one thing about Gaddafi is. he could he could rock those aviators. >> Oh, yeah. And that that uh perm. >> Yeah. Two looks that I've never been. able to pull off. I. >> I would pay good money to see you try, though. I have a I have a feeling. there's a Photoshop in the future. >> I'm looking at him right now. He kind of. looked a little bit like uh Carlos. Santana. >> Yeah, for sure. He got he got mistaken. for that all the time. He thought that. was hilarious. >> I bet.

>> Yeah. >> And Santana, too. But it was not as good. for Santana to be mistaken as. >> Kaddafi. Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh you got anything else about AQ Con? >> I got nothing else. >> I don't either. Which means, of course, everybody, it's time for listener mail. Uh this is a uh not a correction, just a. little bit of added info. Uh hey guys, we've heard from a few people, by the. way, from um from Canada specifically. about Phil Hartman. >> Okay.

>> Love the show, guys. My favorite podcast. for years now. As a huge comedy and huge. SNL fan, I really appreciated your. recent Phil Hartman podcast. uh you said. in your show that you surmised he was. probably the second most famous person. from Brford uh after Wayne Gretzky but. also qualified there were probably. someone else that you might be missing. that was more famous. Just wanted to. pass along that Alexander Graanbell was. born in Brford and is arguably the most. famous person born in Brford Ontario. ahead of Gretzky and then Hartman. Uh I.

think I agree with that. Jay uh that is. Jay Hamr from Hamilton Ontario. Thanks. Jay. That was a short and sweet email. and we love those kind. And uh yeah, I. would agree too. Alexander Graanbell's. probably more famous even than Wayne. Gretzky. >> Ohoy. >> Uh if you want to be like Jay and get in. touch with us and set us straight about. something, we love that kind of thing. You can send it via email to stuff. podcast at iiheartradio.com. >> Stuff you should know is a production of.

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