Tom Satterly - Delta Force CSM (RET) "All Secure" | SRS #77 Part 3

previously on the Sean Ryan Show. [Music]. this is going to be your last interview. on Mogadishu and what happened in. Somalia. hurts me the most.

about the trash bags. talking among the spouses those body. parts for that trash pack. you can't use trash bags. this past weekend we all reacted with. anger and horror as an armed sonali gang. desecrated the bodies of our American. soldiers and displayed a captured. American pilot.

I remember getting nervous but still. like we're gonna be home for dinner. right you know just joking around and. then another RPG I remember looking up. and seeing it hit the helicopter the. tail of the helicopter you saw it hit. yeah and it just started. Auto rotating I'm like oh man you know. these tragic events raise hard questions. about our effort in Somalia I saw a guy. across the street pop out with an AK and. aim it up he either shot him right in. the head or whatever he disappeared in. the room his weapon flew out the window.

was that your first kill the guy on the. roof yeah. so that was exciting for you it was. so I don't get this detail typically and. it still hurts you know. yeah it's funny people say well tell me. about Samaya well let's talk about some. minor instantly. I feel it you know. is there anything that could have been. done. after that operation. that could have.

improved your your mental state for the. rest of your career. and talking about it. getting everybody together to talk about. it. [Music]. all right Tom welcome back for day two. all right ready to do it all right man. well we covered your. as much as of your career as we can. cover in one day yesterday and. um today we're kind of getting into.

some of the the other side of this coin. you know and and what it's like coming. into civilian life but before. we get. post retirement I just want to backtrack. and I want to talk about what are some. of the things that you're dealing with. in some of the things that you're you're. you're you're using to cope with. with the experiences that you've had. throughout your career I mean a lot of. guys you know a lot of guys resort to. booze.

a lot of bar fights a lot of women. problems a lot of pills a lot of drugs. some of them pushed on you from. I've had stuff pushed on me from units. and commands maybe you have I don't know. but but it's a it's a ongoing discussion. and um more and more just unravels as. time goes on so I'm just wondering what. are some of the things you are doing. behind the scenes. all of that. all of that.

and that started towards the end of my. career I couldn't tell you what year. um. you know hiding the drinking going home. at night and drinking literally all. night until I passed out. and then return it to work the next day. and doing all that it was um you know. struggling to stay on top. struggling to feel relevant getting. older getting weaker you know body's. breaking down and all these kids are. coming up. and it's just embarrassing to start. getting past in a run or a race or a. team event you're starting to be the.

last guy in the team event you know and. it's just that. that shameful feeling of man I'm not. capable of being here anymore uh. so all the drinking started the uh. suicidal ideation. the worthlessness the you know I just. want to crash my tree into the bridge. abutment you know and just thinking that. all the time. thinking about suicide a lot but never. with a pistol you know and so. let me break it down a little bit more. because I feel like we're it's too broad.

of a spectrum. what was. what was family life. after Mogadishu. what did that like what was that like. coming home to your wife. cold. I think I was cold that wasn't one of. the. great marriages that I had anyway and it. wasn't one of the more affectionate ones. it was just but I had definitely changed. I know my first wife has passed and and. she was close friends with my sister.

and so I had this story in my head of. her boyfriend came and cleaned my house. out with her and she moved back and I. didn't blame her because I was never. home. and uh it was probably 95 94 so about a. year after I got back from Somalia we. divorced it just wasn't. my head was in never happening again. right so I'm always at work doing the. same things at work never home. now I'd get up around four in the. morning ride my bike to work and then. I'd work out and I'd take a shower and. eat breakfast and would shoot all day. you know and then work out and then CQB. and then ride my bike home after a.

workout and just a slate evening. and I'm smoked I go to bed we didn't. talk it was I don't know I didn't have. the feelings to talk I didn't have any. emotions so that just crumbled did you. realize what was happening no I just uh. I thought about work was there even any. talk of post-traumatic stress TBI. anything at that point no time not a not. a thing about it just put your head down. and get to work I didn't tell anybody I. was divorcing it's just I think my team. knew. and I came back from a trip I think in.

Israel and my house was cleaned out. nothing left but a lawn chair I actually. had to go get the lawn chair I was shed. in the back and I laid in that for that. night. I thought well you know the next day. it's a funny thing the next day I got up. and my team had come over and helped. helped me roof my house you know take. off shingles and start this huge pile. inside the yard and help me roof the. house then we took off to Israel when I. came back a friend of mine who had. stayed back. uh for for school or something. I called him I go that crazy lady even. took the shingles on the side of the.

house and he had loaded him up and taken. him to the dumpster while we were gone. and he's like oh he started laughing. because that was me man I was like she. took it all even the shingles and the. pilot side of the house but. non-existent relationship. and then that was followed up by a. two-year marriage. that was your marriage yeah that was uh. she ended up having I found out she was. having an affair for like probably 18. months the two years we were married. because I was gone all the time. and again it was like. all right I got it later you know I got. a phone call one day some guy we were.

trying to hire at work he wanted to work. at work. she's like I've been having you know. fair with this dude I'm like oh really. I'll be home in a minute you know I. looked at the team guys and I was like. all right I'm gonna go home and in this. relationship guys and guess who it was. and I told him you know my friend's like. that's it that dude's done but. you know that's just emotional talk from. my friends and I just went home and. another guy at the unit yeah you know. your friends are like I'm gonna go Crush. that dude I'm like really I mean we all. know who we are right I mean when it.

happens to us it's different. you know in question form. so it's a judgment that we give on. everyone else yet we're doing the same. thing right yeah we're doing the same. things at the time so. got married a third time. and that's when I had a child and uh. I thought that would make it better. that's your son yeah what's his name. Thomas. and I thought having a kid would make it. better and it was one of those as soon. as she gave birth I went to Bosnia.

gone for three months you know and she. had postpartum I didn't know at the time. her mother had to come over and help her. you know she was having suicide ideation. trying to take care of this kid. I never got told any of that until later. you know in that relationship. maybe on average. you know relationship still always gone. when I'm home I'm training when I'm home. I'm really not mentally home I'm. thinking about what's next. so again over 10 year period we grew. apart and that that took me through. retirement.

and then like like I said probably about. two weeks after the day I retired I was. in Amman Jordan for a year and a half so. it was one of those. you know we'll make money that'll make. it better and uh. I still didn't try to get help I drank. everything in Jordan you know it was. just all the guys with me all this stuff. guys retired. all the same everyone the same. hiding it drinking it away every now and. you'd hear little stories and you're. like oh I kind of get it you know and.

back to drinking it away. when did you start the when did you. start the medications and the coping and. with it when you were in. uh one time. one of the docs called me in the office. and I was having issues at work like I. couldn't focus I never slept um. um I was just always wired just wired. and I and I started noticing I'm wound. tight. I went and talked to one of the docs and. told them how he's feeling he's like oh. here Prozac you need this.

congratulations you lasted longer than I. thought you know and I was like oh was. everybody on Prozac here and I started. taking it. that's the first time I started taking. naps in the middle of the day. I'm like man I need I need to sleep and. I just started feeling like a zombie. so I think two and a half weeks after. taking it maybe a little longer I just. stopped taking it because I didn't like. it. and I think a couple weeks later I went. and told the duck hey he's like how you. doing I'm like I quit taking this. he's like you need to taper off that. stuff well I go I could just quit it you.

know. and I had issues after quitting it but. um I don't want it I didn't want to feel. that way you know I felt like I was you. know dulling my blade or something so I. didn't want to take that so I refused I. didn't I didn't look for any treatment. after that. I thought well it's just going to make. me asleep make me a zombie I don't want. to be that zombie I need to be awake and. do my do my thing so. I didn't take anything after that until. after I met Jen and until after. I nearly ruined everything with her.

you know I used to tell her you know. don't tell me I'm at Rock Bottom I. pulled a jackhammer how did I meet her. it was at work. we were actually I was retired and I. passed the Amman Jordan time and into. Contracting. and we were making a video for another. operator who was doing um. like an event you know a fun event kind. of thing. um where special ops guys come in and. teach you how to put on your kit teach. you how to wear it teach you how to CQB.

and then you go and you shoot zombies. right and it was kind of fun it was like. doing uh rmts but with zombies you know. you didn't really have to die. we did that for a bit. um I Met Her filming for it like. shooting a reel for it. and I didn't really know who she was I. didn't really pay attention to her I was. in a miserable 268 pound steak you know. knowing I was 268 pounds. telling myself it was a muscle but. knowing I hadn't worked out in a year. and a half so. I was just trying to stay relevant but I. didn't care about anybody and somebody. brought her in it's like hey this is uh.

you know Tom from Black Hawk Down and uh. I just kind of looked hey and looked. back and that was it and I think they. came later and like we're gonna go to. the hospital we hear someone you want to. come like no you know I just sat there. on that couch like whatever. film the whole thing. um. got back on one of my friends like do. you see that hot chick you know and I'm. like which one the Asian because I. remember like two girls there I don't. know you know. he's like no no this one he pulls up and. I picture and I'm like oh. saw it on LinkedIn I'm sitting there.

staring in her picture and I was like. man she's gorgeous how'd I missed that. you know how did I miss that my eyes and. Edward down I was just miserable. so linked into it you know and at some. point she accepted it and uh the next. time we got together to do more filming. it's like hey my pickup line was hey I. linked into you you know I was like one. of those how cool is this I had no game. and no game uh been married my whole. life even multiple times but I had no. game. and uh just kind of started talking we.

started working together filming I'd. help her film you know if the. helicopter's coming in her shirt flies. up I'd hold it down kind of thing and. making sure she stayed safe from the. explosive charges and I'd set her up. like stay right here behind this iron. beam that wall is going to blow open. soon and it's a team of seals are gonna. come through and you're going to video. the whole thing after the Smoke Clears. but don't move from this spot and I'll. tell you when the countdown's coming you. know I'd run around make sure everything. else was set the teams would move up and. I'd go and I'd grab her and just hold. her behind while we get the best shot. possible I just kind of grew from there. um got to know her more appreciated a.

work ethic you know when I'm walking. around as the leader of the Target and. all the other role players in op4 you. know the seals are gone or the SF guys. are gone and now I'm picking up brass. I'm picking up targets I'm cleaning up. this Warehouse building and she's right. beside me picking up brass with me. picking up you know flash bangs off the. ground making sure we leave nothing. behind. and we popped out and all my role. players and all my leaders are just. telling stories and cracking jokes and. hear this camera lady as well follow me. around working still.

I just screamed at him I'm like you know. I didn't scream at him I think I shamed. him a little bit with uh if I'm picking. up brass and you're telling jokes you're. wrong I go if the camera lady's picking. up brass you're way wrong you know they. were like all embarrassed and start. picking up you know. it's one of those things that I just. started to protect her on target you. know and then it kind of fell into she's. really cute you know and then I think I. think. she might correct me because my memory. I think one night in a Conex at. Fort Benning. filming the Rangers we ended up in Conex.

for a long time staring out a window. from the corner and I think I probably. touched her hand with my hand like you. know sorry that's okay I'm like oh. really you know I think I kissed her for. the first time in that conics because it. was dangerous and fun and and it kind of. went from there. that's cool man yeah it was it was uh. unexpected but but fun and. she was so nice I kept thinking what do. you want you know like what do you want. what what's the hook here what's the. catch because when you're nice you want. something. because I wasn't around niceness a lot.

and so it was attractive but also like. what is this you know so it made it more. interesting how long have you guys been. married now. oh eight eight years. let's go. I want to pick up here but let's go back. just a little bit to Iman Jordan. because that sounds like that was kind. of the start of. what really turned into the downward. spiral am I correct yeah I'd say it was. the flow through it was a good connector. after I got out had I stayed with that.

like a lot of guys get out and they look. for that thing they'll go oga they'll go. to contract work they want to keep going. I wanted to train and teach I didn't. want to keep doing that because a lot of. guys that died doing that I'm like I. don't want to just show up in a country. and I'm standing next to a former cop. and someone else I don't know who needed. to make money too and I'm like all right. let's go and I'm like I don't know you. guys I don't want to do that yeah so. when that job came up and I'm on Jordan. it was it was one of those oh it's on a. range it's teaching SF guys flow through. they're all out you know so that'll be.

fun I get to see some of the guys again. and train them as they go into Iraq and. coming out and training and. so that was good and then that turned. into a um General Herald had pulled me. aside he said hey we want to start up a. new program for the prince. and we want you to train the jordanians. to be special forces qualified. so I designed a four-month course of you. know we didn't do the medical stuff. other than basic medical you know and. shooting heart hopping you know land nav. CQB and things like that taught them as.

much as we could through the high tars. um making it legal obviously. and that lasted a good year and a half. before the money dried up you know. whoever siphons off the top whatever the. hell money dried up and so they turned. it into well let's teach a ranger course. you know but we won't get the barracks. we won't get this and that you have to. buy all this other stuff because the. money's lower so put them up intense up. on the hill had everything set up for. these hundred Ranger you know wannabes. to come through and then that went away. and then Gary uh went back for medical.

reasons and a new general came in and. since I was in charge of all that and a. new general came in he wanted to bring. in his old sergeant major. so they'd let go of a SAS guy. who was expected to take everything over. and then the general called a meeting. with everybody's like oh Tom man you're. going to get promoted you're going to be. the dude that runs this whole thing this. will be awesome you know and I'm like I. just want to run this program oh you're. going to be the guy that's running all. these things. and I went in there and sat down and uh. picked up my notebook ready to listen to.

what he had to say. and he said our company no longer needs. you. um appreciate your time with us any. questions. all right closed my book and I set it. down I looked down and I go I guess one. why you know his answer was moving in a. different direction. I go all right I stood up and turned. around because everything else I just. walked out the door and there was a. third group was there and I knew a bunch. of guys in third group and a good friend. of mine was there packed all my in.

a bag real quick they wanted to turn. over from me you know. packed on my in a bag looked at Joe. and I go can you throw this in your ass. you go get it back from you at Fort. bragos you know it brother I go hey I. have all your training schedule but it's. leaving with me I'm sorry take it up. with the uh with the people here and he. said what happened I'm leaving man he's. freaked out he was so mad because he. knew everything was gonna go to you. know we'd set it all up. they ended up finishing their time out. brought my stuff back I got on a plane. that night and flew back and everybody. like where'd you go and I got all my. stuff's in a bowl man you no longer.

needed me I'm a contractor later you. know I owe you nothing now. and so I packed up and that's when it. kind of really hit me. like here we go again I felt like. another admin betrayal like I'm getting. ready to get promoted to the top. and you just let it get let go and all. the guys behind you are emailing you. this sucks this place sucks they're. really blowing it and then it all shut. down within about six months damn it all. shut down. and so my days turned into sleeping all. day. I'm watching TV all night while snacking.

and drinking and sleeping all day then. ended up moving out of my my bedroom. with my wife and moving into the spare. bedroom. because it was one of those you kicked. me up and I go to work I'm like okay and. just moved into the spare bedroom across. from my son's room and uh laying there. all day and I watch TV all night. until I got that call to go do hey we're. gonna video this uh thing for zombie. killing and we need some special ops. guys I'm like what's it pay because now. I'm just looking to make some money you. know and I'll do anything to do that how. old was your son at this time.

five six no. um what year is this. wow he's four or five. hang on what. 11. so yeah my son was 11. 11 years old. wow yeah what was your relationship like. with your son. I'd tell him I loved him.

um. I think I tried to teach him too many. lessons at 11 years old. I think that made me hard on him like if. he slept in too late you know try to. wake him up if you slept in again they. want him to come in there banging pots. and pans he freaked out and woke up like. that's what you got to get up you know. what was I doing right I was using the. tools that I knew from basic training. and from being violent aggressive to try. to teach him lessons at 11 years old. I know I told him I loved him you know I. didn't show it really so I think he.

picked up on that. and that that broke my heart along with. a lot of things coming back from. deployments when he's younger and trying. to hold him any freaks out because he'd. annoy him he's crying and wailing and I. mean all that painful your son doesn't. know you and it's your fault he felt. like a complete stranger yeah yeah and. he felt like you were a complete. stranger oh for sure he's 23 now and. we're still. working back into it. we talked the other day and he's like. hey you know I'm getting better socially.

and and you know and I understand the. things you went through now. and I appreciated it and I appreciate. um everything I'm like well you know. we'll just hopefully could work this. into another relationship as two adults. and so that's what we're trying to do. now and it's all my fault from being. gone you know and I just tell people. it's choices you make. I couldn't connect with him. he was too young different you know. points of view different places in life. and I never considered that like you're. a boy you're my son.

and I'm trying to connect with you and. why didn't I just get down on the floor. and lay there and you could have climbed. over top of me as the mountain you know. or just to play with him instead of. trying to. build some boy who could care for. himself early on in life you know my. mind was my job is to make you able to. survive alone. and that's how I handled it. so it wasn't very fatherly it wasn't. nurturing from my side and I don't think. he got it from his mother who was. probably hurting obviously at the time.

and Dove herself into work as well. so I think he was kind of parentless a. bit when did you realize when did you. realize. you needed to take on a different role. and start to. mend that relationship. I think when he came to live with Jen. and I. and then I immediately went off on. another training trip back to New Mexico. and I was gone for a bit and he started. acting out smashing his computer. punching the wall. cutting a little bit when Jen was home.

and I'd get phone calls hey your son did. this and I get him on the phone and go. What's your deal man here I am on the. phone again instead of flying home. and and yelling at him to stop like. that'll work stop acting like a fool you. know and still never considered it was. me that made him act out like that and. Jen would try to talk to him you know. your dad's does a lot you don't know. what he did you know he goes and I don't. care I just wish to work at Home Depot. so I could see him.

when I heard that. he didn't care what I did. and I thought man it'd be so proud of me. he didn't care he just wanted a dad. that's when I knew that really screwed. it up. what were. what was your first step to fixing it. foreign.

leaving him alone. I really tried over and over again on. tax he went back he stayed with us for a. year. and he went home to visit his mom which. he said he didn't want to you know him. stay here I don't want to go back and I. made him go back to visit his mom it's. your mother you know go visit your. mother and she's probably freaking out. and I had a feeling. I said you want to take anything with. you in case you changed your mind or. anything he's like no no he left stuff. there he went home and sometime towards. the end I think we got to call her text.

and I think I'm gonna stay here and go. to school here you know I'm sure it. wasn't getting talked about nicely back. home. I said all right um we'll pack up your. stuff and send it to you know and we did. and. and I kept texting and calling and. texting calling it was ignoring it and I. got some advice from Jen and I decided. to let him be for a bit let him. determine what he wants to be but let. him know I'm there every now and then. I'm not expecting answer and not expect.

um a solution right away. that's been that's taken years to get to. where he calls me now without you know. it used to be a text hey Happy. Thanksgiving and about Christmas I'd. give thanks Dad you know. kind of one of those like I'm so busy. right oh my God I played that game. before I understand. to now he calls me out of the blue and. just wants to chat with me about how. he's doing with this job and stuff and. it's it's really really gotten to my. heart and really made me a lot happier. uh more uh.

confident inside that I can mend this. and we can get together. is there anything you. you want to say to him right now. yeah that I love him more than anything. on this planet. and then I'm sorry. that it wasn't her fam. but I'm here now and I want to be here. for him. I'm sure he's gonna hear that I hope so. he will.

let's go back a little bit farther to I. think it was 2002. where. some guys came home and murdered their. wives. how did that impact you. to be honest. looking back. I don't think I took much stock in it.

I think the feelings were oh man the. unit's gonna look bad yo that's bad for. the unit. um was probably my thought. a little thrown in one of those kids you. know my God you can imagine but then. that's probably the extent of it like oh. man the unit really looks bad you know. and. and then those poor kids and then that's. it. I didn't think about man what were they. going through behind closed doors what. was that relationship like for that to. happen I mean what brings people to that.

and that was the first time I think we'd. ever experience anything like that. um but still I didn't take many stock in. it I couldn't tell you what the unit did. about it I couldn't tell you. I just don't know. when did that hit you when did that when. did that hit you that okay something's. going on that we don't know about. for me or the unit for the for the I. mean that was in 2002 that was early you. know I think didn't you retired in 2013. and 10. 2010 stock into it no and you.

know what still they don't put much. stock into it. you call organizations an offer up a. retreat free. we'll fly you in you know just come on. just show up. an organization like we have our own. thing. we do our own thing and like you know I. came from this organization what what. thing are you doing there you know. because everybody's calling and wanting. these but I offered it to the. organization like we're doing our own. thing you know and then another suicide. another thing that goes wrong. it's like the organizations that are.

higher up try to hide the negativity so. they don't get looked at poorly. you know or regulated or whatever would. would happen so I think we internalize a. lot of that stuff and hold on to it and. keep it at the lowest level possible. which means we don't run it up the. flagpole which means they don't get the. statistics which mean they're not really. aware of what's going on at the higher. levels or they're also complicit and. they know and they don't do anything. about it. so there's still. to this day just dipping their toe in.

the water on what to do with this and. that's why they're so behind you know. the military the government it's like a. big ship in the ocean Once you turn it. it's going to take a long time to fully. turn around and go in the other. direction yeah it's just a big slow. process and then there's money right. then there's money. what. there's just so many aspects to getting. out you know and uh so what was. I mean I've. I've been in the SEAL Teams I've been in. the agency I've interviewed guys from.

just about every unit there is and I. will say that. is toxic as I it's toxic as I think the. seal Community is. I think that the. Delta Community is definitely the most. toxic from my from my vantage point and. I've interviewed a number you guys. nobody seems to leave there on good. terms. if they do leave their own good terms. terms go to later on. and um.

I'm wondering what is the interaction. between you. in the unit and. some of your old teammates friends you. know a lot of us consider them family. what was that like when you left in. Jordan and you're hearing the guys. everything from the way you left to. hearing the guys go on and do more. missions and more missions I mean I know. what that's like too what how did that. affect you. and broke me down it was like a boot in. the ass on the well you know jumping off.

that fast moving train and you get. assisted with a boot in the ass. and then you realize that Train's gone. your tribe's gone everything you did is. gone. and you gotta be tree feel betrayed at. the end and it's just it crushes. everything you've ever done. I felt completely worthless I felt like. a fraud I felt like I'd let the unit. Down Still you know I let the unit down. man you know how dare I. it was never. self-directed feelings you know I don't.

think any of us had those out there it's. all cutthroat. it's all comparison when you're out. there how good are that person I need to. do that I need to be better than that. the competition was relentless and it. just drives you through the roof. and I realized every day I told myself I. needed to be better my mind here is. you're not good enough. and so I just didn't realize down the. road that man I'm putting a lot of. pressure on myself I'm trying to do. these things you know even though I'm no. longer in the unit I'm still trying to. be better than whoever's around me as.

much as I can. and I don't think I was being a good. leader I was running the whole. organization but when you bring in the. right people they run themselves pretty. much. I think I was burning out I was getting. tired you know probably over drinking. while I was over drinking it's probably. what making me was tired and. and I didn't have the love and the job. anymore it was just going downhill and I. just could feel myself sinking into this. hole in the Earth and. and just going away.

I'm being irrelevant. and I was grasping for relevancy I was. grasping for attention I was grasping. for someone to look at me and say hey. you're okay you're good to go you know. you're cool. and when you leave nobody does that do I. have friends in the unit now. no. do I know a lot of people from the unit. yes do you have acquaintances yes I have. very few friends from the unit. that I talk to I check up on a lot of.

people. but whether it was the book that came. out and people were pissed. for not knowing what was in it right. unless they read it then they wouldn't. be pissed. or for just the loyalty to the unit. or you know when the older guys when. they got out it's just they kind of move. on with their lives after a bit. and so they're the transition of you. getting out you're listening to the news. you're texting your boys is that who's. that is that you who got killed you know. was that us you know wondering trying to. stay relevant to.

you know no more texting no more. connection no more you know that that. Brotherhood is gone the Train's moved on. and you move on with your life I know. the guys move on with their life. to where I don't even want to go back to. the unit I hadn't much for the annual. informals and Formals. just sick to my stomach just sick to my. stomach to go back and think what's. going on even going back to Fort Bragg. makes me sick to my stomach I could feel. a testosterone I can feel how I felt. back then we don't when we go back now.

we stay out in Southern Pines I just I. have to get away I can't be around 82nd. dudes a military guys it's stacked on. top of each other drinking and just I. can't be around that environment um. anymore it's just toxic to me so I. choose to stay away from that. and enter into a more calmer a gentler. life. and that's helped a lot that's helped a. lot given up who I was and accepting who. I can be. and not thinking I peaked you know I'm. no I'm gonna Peak doing this I think I. saved more lives doing this and I never.

did working I think you're right. at least American lives you know. let's move on past we had covered. talking to Jen you guys bet. heard the first kiss in the Conex box. how romantic yeah. at night it was hot as hell yeah but um. how did that I mean I know that you guys. started off pretty Rocky correct very.

Rocky. I like rock stars parties and I mean. we're probably using each other you know. I think we were using each other not. knowing what would what it would be she. was a partier too huh oh yeah she didn't. deny anything we were gonna go to she. hung in there actually hung in there um. and that was impressive. you know she would hang in there with us. and still give it to the guys who were. doing wrong you know when they wanted. help I mean she wouldn't be one of those. wagon fingers at people but just kind of.

make you think about what you're doing. you know and that's what attracted. people to her to start talking to her. about what's wrong with me by the way. you noticed it what's up you know why do. I feel this way more like a den mother. for the guys you know the seals on. target the controllers and the seals who. stayed around and had seen her before on. a different you know set up a different. iteration hey Jan they always remember. the blonde hair girl you know hey Jen I. was with her you know nobody wants to. talk to Tom but that attracted people. and her demeanor and then just started. sharing their stories with her about. their family and.

want to propose to their girlfriends and. and. she got to know them and then they. wouldn't come back from deployments. should ask around hey is team team four. where's you know where's Bob. Bob didn't make it you know where's Mike. and Mike didn't make it he was with Bob. you know and it just happened over and. over again. and just one of those days. you know as our relationship grew she. decided I can't I can't prepare people. to go to war anymore. I have to help them come home.

so she pulled out of that job and. started working on her non-profit. building it from scratch not knowing. what we were doing uh well I I continued. to work so we could eat food while we. did it and then uh. started from there you know just trying. to help others it would. at what point do you think you hit your. lowest. what point in time did you hit your. lowest point. was it after meeting Jen or was it. before my wedding night. you your wedding night.

let's hear about it I screwed that up. too. the wedding day was going well Savannah. Georgia. our small group of. former employees would be there they. were around. we decided to get married on Tybee. Island get on Tybee beach at Sunset and. we didn't want anybody there. we didn't want our friends there we. didn't want them on the beach we wanted. to private we'd link up with you later.

you know and have drinks. so we got dressed early drove down to. Tybee probably had a drink before we. left. pulled over to another bar that we used. to hang out you know that shot pulled. down to another bar on the way probably. both of us were nervous as hell. because we were planning on getting. married overseas somewhere destination. wedding Bora Bora something like that. we were looking to buy a house together. in St Louis because I still lived in. Savannah. and they wouldn't give us the loan for. the VA unless we were married and it was.

supposed to close on Monday we'll have a. bus so I had to go to the courthouse and. get a marriage certificate on a Friday. so the next Saturday we could get. married and then Monday we would close. kind of deal it was so ended up all. being rushed so there was stress there. I learned that later you know the stress. of changing jobs the stress of buying a. home the stress of getting married all. at one time you know it was just all. piled on us. so we had another drink and then we went. on down for the ceremony and there was a. photographer and a priest or a chaplain. whatever who he was down there.

um beautiful sunset ceremony had been. raining before that so the beach had. cleared we're the only ones on the beach. and the rain cleared up in his nice. little orange Sunset we got some. beautiful photos got married. they went and met our friends. and that's when I you know I don't. remember a lot of it I ended up talking. to one of our other employees wives on I. didn't remember that I didn't even. consider what was happening. it's just another day for me right just. another day. and ended up getting drunk and I didn't.

do a first dance with my wife all the. traditional things that she wanted I was. like whatever what is that I didn't. consider it she got mad obviously. um started to tell me about it and of. course when you shame me or tell me I'm. wrong you know I go straight to rage. so I was screaming at her as we're. walking home we entered the lobby I. don't even remember this I heard it. later that one of the person people in. the library like are you okay because. I'm yelling so loud because I don't I. don't care anymore right I don't care. where I'm at I don't care what I'm. saying I'm talking listen.

made her well I went to the bedroom I. think I threw a makeup case across the. room. um screaming and yelling and I ended up. waking up on the floor the next morning. and I'm like oh. that probably didn't go well. she came out of the bathroom and sat on. the bed and she said well she's holding. our paperwork we hadn't turned it into. the courthouse yet because it was a. weekend. someone hold on to this. I may not turn it in I'm gonna fly home.

we're gonna think about this and this. may not last and I. crushed me inside. man I blew this I had this in blue this. one in a day basically in this day. I blew it again. and that was my worst day and the start. of my best life. because that's one of my. that's when I made the promise to do. something.

that's when I was below rock bottom. that's when I realized I had. crush the person that I love so much. and it knew that I loved her that deeply. and I crushed her and I saw in her face. I felt like nothing. that was my worst. how long did she go home for. unless she lived there so she. she told me on a Sunday we sat on a. bench on the beach and we talked a long. time.

she said I'm just gonna go home think. about this and I'll let you know. um. and then she she it wasn't long I I. don't know if it was Sunday she told me. that she probably wouldn't but she would. think about her if she'd let me sit on. that for a couple of days. and uh she finally told me you have to. get help where I'm going you have to do. something or I'm leaving. and then with my back in the corner I. came out fighting you know I I went and.

found a counselor that that day Monday I. think that Monday I made an appointment. and it was Eric Clapton's old. coach or whatever and. he knew I mean he knew what was up. and for the first time I was told you. know I had post traumatic stress I. wasn't an alcoholic I was a problem. Drinker you know I was a. that it could be I could be helped and. here's some tools to manage your anger. because it was all anger management for. me that's what I thought. and so that started me picking up these.

little tidbits of what to do if I. started to get angry and I'd go back to. work and you know my co-workers like. they always talk don't talk to Tom. before 11. he's grumpy you know just. don't talk to him and I was because I. was drunk the night before and I'm. hungover at work and I'm about 11 you. know the deal I'm like oh okay maybe. I'll drink again tonight after promising. I'll never drink again. and they start noticing a little change. you know it's like talking to Jen like. what's up with Tom he's coming up with. these weird sayings and not getting mad. and and he's a little bit different.

and it felt good it felt better you know. so Jen obviously decided to stick around. and uh. then she got busy on okay what's next. what's next you're not done yet you know. I'm like I'm all better now right I'm. not angry but she knew it wasn't. so we went into the trans Transcendental. Meditation right and that was just a. little woo-wooy for me at the time a. little early for that but it worked it. helped slow me down again it helped. bring me back in again. and then I started doing other.

modalities which helped me sleep a. little more you know managing my. drinking from drinking at all to to. working into where we make rules when. you were drinking. I want to I want to go into all the. things that helped you because it's it's. you know it's like a puzzle putting it. all together it all works in combination. I think yeah but um. I. people don't understand that are.

listening I understand. all the guys that the the similar. backgrounds you know they understand. families understand civilians that they. don't understand and that's the majority. of this audience so. what was what was just a normal day in. the life. of Tom satterly how much were you. drinking what pills were you on. what time would you take them what was. the cycle.

wow I don't know how many Percocets I. was on I was in so much pain. that I would take them and it was in a. culture of I'd have jars of Percocets. you can get them you know and I took the. biggest ones they had and uh. you're in that culture of ah my back. hurts hey man you got one of those pills. right you know everybody's back hurts. when you have perk sets um. and it felt good to take them because I. was in pain. every minute of every day. and when I take a Percocet it was.

oh what's different oh I'm not in pain. oh I'm happy right I'm high I you know. and then I drink on top of that. so I'd take percocets all day. and then alcohol would start early. paying and for for pain and it just it. felt me made me feel better know me out. yeah. and I took more than I should have. that's for sure. I'd forget I took perk set and I want to. feel a little better you need that bump. you know. um I'm smoking marijuana I was drinking.

from as early as in the day as I could. to as long as I could or when I when I. had to end it because I just don't. remember you know I just passed out or. one of those. catching a cab the next day and going. around looking everywhere you've been. checking receipts to find your car. because at least you were smart enough. to take a cab home that night. um just not knowing where your car was. and it just started hitting me that man. I do have a problem I you know if I. gotta chase. receipts the next day to find my car.

what's happening to me. um. another perk set you know it's just it. was a cycle that was accepted. in that culture. pushed in that culture. and about sleeping pills oh yeah. gobbling up Ambien and Valiums yeah. that's a counter at night I'll probably. take two three ambient at night go nuts. four six you know four eight twelve. hours. I'd pop two volume I'd wake up and chew. another Ambien hoping it would hit me.

quicker and just laying in bed with my. eyes open. miserable I couldn't sleep roll over. close my eyes thoughts just miserable. couldn't sleep you know I was drunk. and I just rolled her and lay there. until I'm hungover and then probably. about four or five in the morning I'd. close my eyes and be like ah finally. wake up at seven. just miserable go to work. if I wasn't late and just not talk until. 11. then go get some lunch in me like ah. Tom's back you know Percocets make me.

happy. that went on for a long time. Percocet started a long time ago from. the surgeries picked me up in the. morning. Adderalls cocaine anything like that no. I uh. in Jordan I'd have some coffee which I. didn't drink coffee and I'd dump a. little kaloo in there on the way to work. and I don't even know why because it. didn't do anything but you know what I. mean as much as I drank a little bit I. think it was the I'm having a little. drink you know so that's that's good or.

maybe it was the party time even though. it was working it was like a good time. that we're gonna have here. and then I realized. I can't do this as a leader in front of. these guys because it it creates an. environment where it's okay for everyone. else to do this you know how long did. you stay in that cycle for. how many years hmm. 10 10 years maybe more. 10's a good number.

yeah. I'd fudge a little higher if I had to. that's a long time it took a long time. for awareness. and then when the awareness came it took. a long time for acceptance. there was more denial and acceptance. and then a slow. acceptance speed. and then more awareness of more things. and then more acceptance and then the.

slow process of what do I do. and roll into that and which one do I do. and what's working and who's just. selling something they say works. to just deciding that why shouldn't I do. everything I can possibly do and never. stop doing it. until I get where I need to be you know. if not I'm going to quit. and then that's where I die. when I quit trying that's what that's. where I would have died back then.

if your wife Jen has kids too yes. when did you get introduced to them and. how did that how how are those. relationships back then I think they. were four and six five and sevenish and. when they're younger. very accepting it's just a friend. mommy's friend you know and then there's. daddy still you know they visit daddy. mommy's friend visit daddy mommy's. friend. never spoke poorly of their father it's. their father you know um. and then when they were younger I was.

like oh we're having fun and you know. we're together and then as they get. older and they understand I think the. panties is in on them the divorce moves. in on them and they start understanding. more. up to the point where I wrote my book. and she wrote her book and I'm pretty. sure I know they read them. and then as children you know they have. to work through that and some of that. comes out in anger when they're in. trouble. um. some of that just came out in sadness. and other other issues.

and they had to work through that right. we had to get them to work through that. with coaches and counselors as well. along the way knowing that we couldn't. you know even though we do this you know. we can't do this here we have to have. someone else do this. to where they grew up grew through it. and understood you know all right. there's a lot of people out there. divorced this isn't the end of life I. can make it through this my mom and my. dad still are friends and still talk all. the time they're still very cordial I. mean they're friends I mean he's a nice. guy I mean I'm I consider him a friend I.

know him and he's a nice guy you know I. mean it just nothing bad about that I'm. talking about your relationship with. those kids yeah I I was hands off for a. bit I knew who I was were you in the. cycle when you met him oh yeah deep how. long were you in the cycle after you met. him. six seven years. so till about time yeah yeah. um to me and her son have a good. relationship and me and her daughter are.

getting into a good relationship. I heard her more I think. um how so. just her age she's a daughter of a man. and here's a new man. um she's smart. she picks up things and she's. she knows how to uh air it. and using it you know when you go to. divorce you introduced him too soon and. it kind of affected me and I'm like how. much is this are you reading books or. how much is this is a true feeling. coming out either way it's true you know.

and it was uh eye-opening. so I was a lot of hands off knowing how. I could react. going through Jen like hey relay this. message right and putting her in the. stressful you know Rock and Hard Place. going to telling her kids this and that. and. but I had to stay out of that I know I. couldn't manage it you know one day it's. Thanksgiving or no it's it's Luke's. Birthday Grandma Grandpa are over kids. around the table it's very stressful for. me happy times are very stressful for me. back then because I was jealous of it I.

wished I could have that and I didn't. and so I try to manage it I guess it's. the only way to look at it and so. Claudine Lou go out you know the brother. and sister they go at it um. I think Claudia was getting a little. antsy a little amped up a little bit I. looked at her like this is Luke's. birthday can we just have Luke's. birthday you know or whatever it is. it starts ramping up and they're. fighting again and I I was like yeah you. know Jesus and I said something like. can't we just you know and everybody in. the room's like nervous I didn't say.

anything that bad but I think everybody. felt me welling up and getting red. turning into that you know my call sign. crawler instead of Tom. and it was one of those I realized oh I. do get big I do change you know and I I. don't want to say things like this in. front of the family and I kind of just. remove myself and for a while I would. always just stay very quiet on holidays. you know yeah fun you know and try to be. there not realizing that it's obvious. when you're not happy you're just. sitting there for the moment.

to just finally. easing into it later in life and letting. it happen when it happens versus trying. to force it. and I actually think on this last. vacation we took it really was a bonding. a bonding trip because I kept my mouth. shut completely shut. did the things I needed to do and walked. away from the things I didn't want to do. so they could have fun doing them if. like if they want to go shopping and I'm. like huh. I'm gonna go over here and watch street. performers you know and we have that.

relationship where okay we all don't. need to be together you go have fun here. I'm gonna go watch these guys juggle. with knives and swords and when you're. done let me know we'll find each other. and um. to the point where I. to tell you how. life-changing it was for me that trip. was Claudia was having conversations. with me and I remember staring her in. the eyes. and having that conversation and. realizing as we were having it I'd never. looked her in her eyes for longer than a.

second. it's always at the ground like in shame. for me. and I got nervous because oh my God I'm. looking her eyes is it too long it's. weird oh my gosh because it was new to. me and I remember telling Jen about it. later like oh it was so weird I didn't. know what to do but it made me so happy. that we were connecting and having this. conversation about something in London I. don't even remember what it was and it. was just we started talking more and I. was listening more she was listening to. me more and I knew she was listening. because she's always been a listener.

with no information that she's listening. unless you know her enough. but she's always listening. so that time I knew she was listening to. me. and I thought all right this is the. start of something really good now. that's good to hear man yeah it feels. good. how many people other than. Jen. were telling you that something needs to. change.

zero. she's the only one. what do you think that is. I think people were afraid of me I think. people didn't want family didn't want to. say it and family didn't know I don't. think my family knew and I think I hided. I hit it a lot from people and I know my. brothers never bring it up because it's. a mirror. it's a mirror for them. so when Jen did it it was obviously out.

of love I had a strength. kind of stubbornness. and uh it was a shock to me to hear it. straight up hard-hitting. something's wrong with you and if you. don't start now I'm leaving. I won't subject myself to this because. I'm a human too you know I don't I don't. need to be treated this way. so that kind of forced me thankfully and. to take an action. do you think there's anybody else.

out there that could have called you on. your that would have made you. change they would have made you start. looking for answers looking for help. yeah there were people I would have. listened to. who uh my former boss at the company we. helped co-found. had he said something you know just. knowing who I am. I would have taken it as a work thing. and I would oh I'm acting this way. at work I'm a loser right not home life.

but work life. had he said something directly you know. I found out I later aired out thanks to. Jen who would her out things to me who I. thought was coming from her. and then later it was like no he was. saying those to me to you and I'm like. well what the hell's wrong with that. dude really why would he say something. to me man up or I'm not gonna punch you. if I do it won't hurt that long right. just tell me I mean just man up and tell. your friends yeah they need some help. you know but we don't want to hold that. mirror up. because then we would have to go get.

help and it happens a lot with people. that reach out for help immediately. they're connected to help and then they. freak out. and then they don't make the calls. and then I have to cut them away and. then you get the hateful emails about. how your your quack and your system. doesn't work I'm like no nothing works. if you don't do it. you know bicycle lay there forever. unless you pedal the damn thing so. the accountability's not there the. awareness of I need help. you called you emailed but the. accountability is not there they don't. want to admit it they don't want to put. in the work.

and so they shy away from it and make. all the excuses you know I'm fine it's. quack I'm gonna go help other people now. I'm like oh no you know I think helping. veterans is what will help me and I'm. like. okay I started out in a soup kitchen. right helping people after I after I did. the anger management while I was doing. it I was. it opened my eyes to other people and. humans that needed help. I just thought oh you need you need food. go get a job man you know I saw the. human. and those people and it really opened me. up.

and I knew I can't go help people right. I wouldn't take advice marriage advice. from somebody who was never in a. relationship I wouldn't take Financial. advice from somebody was broke all the. time right so I wouldn't want another. veteran taking advice from me or any. other veteran that's broken at the time. because I'm gonna get bad advice that. bad advice is going to take me down the. wrong hole. so I would ask other people who are. helping other people or want to help. other people. to get help first right at least check. it out go talk to licensed clinical.

social worker start talking honestly and. then find out if you have a problem. because if you're telling yourself you. don't. and you're all fit as a fiddle you're. probably not. I have a room of 300 people and I'll be. talking on stage and how many people. have a perfect relationship. no hand ever goes up. okay how many of you are in marriage. counseling. two hands might go up. all right for the other 298 why aren't. you in counseling why are you going to. wait till it's broken to maintain. something they teach us that if it's.

broken it's more expensive takes longer. to fix it versus if you maintain it it. lasts longer and it's always stays. stronger said awareness of oh I don't. have to work on my relationship or. myself until I'm really really broken or. divorce is coming it's too late then. right it's a lot harder to get back up. so. start now. just do the check-ins. and make sure your relationship's in the. right way and make sure your head's in. the right space. it's good advice. there's one more thing that I want to.

hit. it's a dark subject and that's. I know you had at least one suicide. attempt. are there more. how many. I don't know did you always have it. planned out. no it was anger based. what would trigger it. shame. from something I did. from hurting Jen.

yeah and hurting Janet anyway. would would. when put into my face when brought up or. when I calmed down and realized I would. feel so horrible. that I wanted to get away from it so. fast that I started to myself. milliseconds you're worthless your time. here's over you've done your job you're. worried that's all you're here to do. don't ruin This Woman's life. that day we were working together it was.

all right I was feeling down you know my. I wasn't talking to my son I was trying. I was divorcing I knew that that was. going to be another casual win cash. winfall for somebody else other than me. I knew what was coming. and I'm still trying to work and we. wrapped up that day. two friends in the back seat right we've. been riding for a while together and. they didn't know. they didn't know I'd been down that day. they jumped out of the car in the. parking garage like see at the bar like. always you know.

and Jen I found out later new that day. all that day that I was off I wasn't the. jovial self that I normally was I wasn't. charismatic I was just kind of quiet. that old day was my son's. thoughts of my son were Weighing on me. not the fact that I was getting divorced. the thoughts of what a shitty father. I've been um and here I am again right. leaving his mother. and we got to that garage and my two. friends took off and then Jen I normally. helped her carry stuff and she's.

starting to grab her bags and I said I. gotta make a phone call. you know in the parking garage I'm gonna. make a phone call. and I just said that to get a loan. I just needed to be alone. as soon as she turned the corner down. the hallway you know from the parking. garage I pulled my pistol out. and when I charged it you know I was. looking around like I'm getting trouble. and I want to be seen and then I. remember thinking uh the poor people in. the rental car company that finds this. car.

and I remember thinking I hope I do this. right because I don't want to end up you. know just screwed up and have somebody. have to take care of me and wipe my. mouth all the time and I just uh. my phone starts vibrating and ringing. and I'm ignoring it and I'm just. I'm not thinking of War. I'm not thinking of anybody that died. I'm just thinking of what a loser I was. and I was hoping I could do it you know. and the phone kept going off and I. finally picked it up to look like God. and all I saw was a bunch of stuff a. bunch of missed calls and I saw.

something something you're late. and when I saw your late I went right. back to work. like I'm never late. I'm never ever late. you know plus minus 30 seconds anywhere. in the world right and I'm like I'm. never late. clear my pistol put it back in my bag. and grabbed all my stuff when you're. running down you know like what am I. late for and she's like well let's just. go have a seat you know and talk. we went and sat in the corner everybody. else was getting drunk over here we went. and sat in a dark corner and just talked. for a long time. I didn't tell her.

I didn't I don't want to tell her I. thought I'd never do this again I was. crazy I was terrified me it literally. terrified me. thinking of how close I was. and uh I think two months later I told. her and it really struck her it really. struck her and that might have been the. breaking of her. wanting to help people. it might have been like one of the one. of the push things that pushed her over. the top. and then there's been times I mean.

obviously I got to work after our our. wedding night but. you know it's a long process you got to. be diligent you got to be patient I. wasn't patient I wasn't getting well. quick enough. Jen was new to it so every time I did. one thing she wanted me to do another. and then she'd ask another and to me I'm. hearing I'll never be good enough she. keeps wanting me to do more which means. I'm not getting there and I just. fights would break out over I don't know. I couldn't tell you what they were for. they were stupid they're all stupid.

um but I would go to shame embarrassment. I didn't want to end it you know screw. this I'll just ah and I'm banging a. pistol off my head I've grabbed it from. underneath the couch or underneath the. mattress before going to the lock box. and just smacking it off my head just. banging off my head screaming I just. want to do this right in front of her. never considering what it was doing to. her. foreign. about me and I cared about her and I. hated me for hurting her.

set cycle you know how do I break this. cycle not on the bad side. and we just kept going we just kept. going and her patience just kept pushing. and pushing her in her kindness and love. no matter how much I pushed her away. she came back strong and she kept. offering different Alternatives and I. just kept taking them. even to the even. while we were going through this people.

on Facebook and social media were like. you guys are the best couple you know. blah blah blah you're the you know the. epitome of relationships and I'm like. don't you know what Facebook is take. Facebook and apply it to your life. we don't get on there and go man we're. up we fight off sorry we fight. all the time you know and we screamed. each other I mean we kind of do now and. we did in our books to open people's. eyes but back in the time. which is happiness right everybody does. happiness the good side. so I think that's hurting people not. realizing there's a bad side too and.

that side needs the attention the good. side is getting attention the bad side. needs attention. that's where we need to pay attention. so we're honest about everyone hey our. life isn't like you see and we WE Post. other things now we talk about other. things now but but be aware that our. life is not perfection. we're not those people that get on stage. and talk about the things we're not. doing and we're also not those people. who are perfect I think we were told one. I know I was told one time we were told. that I'm going to video you guys talking. to each other and fighting and I'm gonna.

play it back for you so you realize what. you say on stage you don't do. thinking you think brene Brown's perfect. doesn't feel shame I think Tony Robbins. doesn't feel like sometimes you. know or does counter to what he preaches. we all do but we get back on the horse. and we try our hardest to get back you. know in the race. there's a lot of judgment out there and. I'd rather there'd be more curiosity as. to how to get here. I think we should take a break. and when we come back we'll bring Jen on.

I want to get her side of this that'd be. the better side all right thanks. you've heard the buzz about Ketone. supplements and how they can boost your. workouts by helping your body use fatty. acids for fuel I take a shot of hvm and. Ketone supplement before my morning. workout it's focused energy it's not an. energy drink though it's like a feeling. of being in the zone I don't feel hyper. jittery anxiety stuff like I get when I. drink too much coffee they're great for.

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try visit betterhelp.com Sean today to. get 10 off your first month that's. better help. h-e-l-p.com slash Sean. Jen satterly welcome to the show thank. you Sean Ryan appreciate it so we've had. a very extensive conversation with her. husband and we just got through. one of his many suicide attempts where. you actually are the person that's that.

stopped that that saved him and so. I'd like to hear your perspective of. that day sure actually yeah let's go. let's start with that day. we had known each other for a few weeks. at this time just kind of started dating. ish. um we were so work focused. um and get it got to know each other. that way and you know that day he's. normally like starts off rough in the. morning I think he probably talked about.

people don't talk to Tom before noon. kind of thing but this day was a little. bit different he stayed in that space. throughout the entirety of the day so. um not focused he's so tight at work I. mean this guy was Flawless what it. seemed like. um on targets and he was missing things. he was messing up so he just seemed like. this isn't the normal Tom that I'm used. to seeing did I think he was going to. try to take his life of course not I. just noticed something was off something.

was different. and quite honestly it was like 110 in. Canton Ohio it was just and we're smoked. out with all of they're all kitted up in. all of their gear. so he said I'm gonna make a phone call. and I thought in like 110 parking garage. like this really is not adding up now. he's got a hotel room all to himself. um he could go in that room and make a. phone call why is he hanging out in this.

parking garage so. I walked away from the car and went with. the other two Green Berets and halfway. to the room. they're helping me carry my photo gear. um the one guy had set it down and he's. like hey I'm just gonna go shower real. quick and I'm just gonna go down the bar. right away I'm not even gonna wait for. everyone I'm just gonna you should just. come down after and I said you know what. I'm gonna try to get a hold of Tom. and then I'll just wait for him and come. down with Tom and he's okay sure. um so I went to the room and I started.

unpacking my gear and just everything. inside my spirit was like something's. not right so I started texting him. you want to meet me you know Teddy said. he's gonna go to the bar early let's. just go early. nothing hmm he's usually very very. responsive another text nothing another. text nothing. and by this point I thought he's not on. a phone call and. knew something was off. I was just about ready to go to the.

parking garage. and for some reason I don't even know. why I told him he was late he wasn't. late I mean yeah no we had hours before. this Meetup. and so I people ask me why I said that. to him or. how did I know it was divine I. I know that now. that it took something like that to stop. him. you guys had only known each other for a.

couple weeks up to this point in time. you're busy as you have a bunch of. camera gear you're trying to manage an. entire film project for what the US Navy. and. this is what's on your mind this is. what's sticking for sure for sure humans. first always some guy's got to make a. phone call that you known for a couple. weeks and that's in your head it was. amazing right. I had. um I had suicide attempts when I was. younger 14 15.

um I don't know if it was something just. we joke that our trauma was attracted to. each other and I don't know if it was. Instinct I I'm assuming it was God. stepped in and said tell him he's late. because that's what stopped him. and people you know the hardest thing. he's ever told me was you're my savior. you saved me. and that broke me he told you that. and I said if I save you I can also. destroy you. like I'll miss it one time you won't get. that text from me that says you're late.

and so there was this tremendous wait. for years that I thought I could keep. him alive. and I watched him bang guns off his head. I was on my knees begging him not to. pull a trigger literally thinking I'm. gonna watch how would that start. in the stupidest way possible every. single time and that's what makes it. feel so insanely crazy is that this is. over nothing this is over a cup in the. sink this is over socks left on the. staircase this is.

something that has embarrassed you just. this big of going hey you're. overreacting I'm overreacting now you're. telling me now I've embarrassed you I've. shamed you. but that's not the conversation we're. having it's still you're a shitty mom or. you're a shitty wife you know into the. cycle of I'm going to destroy you. and I'm going to take you down to. nothing. and then once you would do that it would. be this.

aha moment of what have I done. complete shame embarrassment. pain. and I think the worst part is I could. see it I could see it on his face that. he was in so much pain what he just did. to me and so immediately I would go into. repair mode don't worry about it it's. fine we'll talk to a therapist tomorrow. just get some air just go for a drive go. punch a bag call a friend you know. because I knew he was this close many. many times and.

there was a time where he had his finger. on the trigger just once. I mean you would see him actually. holding a pistol to his head banging it. on his head. and tears saying let me just do this how. many times did that happen do you think. six seven. I mean I. I got to the point where I started. hiding the guns soon as I could feel. something was off that day. and then that would piss him off.

where are my guns well I don't think you. should have them. you know last week I saw you. banging it on the side of your temple. asking me to give you permission to end. it I'm never gonna do that. Never Gonna Let You I'm gonna fight for. you fight for us until the end. and so. I think the last time I literally was on. my knees we were in the bedroom. and he always told me and I knew this. for 10 years you never put your finger.

on the trigger unless you intend to pull. it. and so all these other times he had the. gun in his hand but this time he put his. finger on the trigger and soon as I saw. that. I thought it was done truly I thought I. was gonna watch him pull it. and I know many other unit wives that. had to watch that so I literally thought. in that second like this is my time this. is where I watch him die. What stopped him. I felt on my knees literally was.

grabbing him by his pants. um I knew not to try to take the gun I. was scared to touch it that he might. react. um and I think when he saw me fall to. the ground. just sobbing begging him not to he. it's like this recollection like Tom. came back. as time's often gone when this would. happen he goes somewhere else crawler. came forward and the guy I knew and love. was gone just gone his eyes would turn. black. and then they would turn blue again and.

when I saw him see me on the ground that. way. he fell to the ground to put the gun to. the side and he said I'll never do that. too again and he didn't. that was it that was it. where are the kids when this is all. happening thank God never at our house. and truly thank god. um. for some reason he wouldn't really start. it when they were around I think. I think he knew they're my. they're my hard line.

they're not gonna see that they're not. gonna be. put into a situation like I had growing. up. and you'll be gone before they will be. gone so. he was always very careful around my. kids always. um. guarded hands off to the point where I'm. like you could come out of the bedroom. at times like you don't have to lock. yourself away but. thank God none of that ever happened in. front of them. but I know that many military families.

that it does many. what did it feel like when did he tell. you about that one day in the park it. was like it was this odd night like we. were out probably drinking. and he's like hey you know that I ain't. that you you know we went and said it. was because it was kind of like the. first night we sat by ourselves like. isolated ourselves from the group. he came into the bar I could tell he. just was disheveled still he didn't. didn't look right and so I said why. don't we just go like sit in the corner.

because it was loud and you know we were. working with a Seal Team so we had the. Green Berets that we were contractoring. with all the seals were cut like so it. was starting to become really chaotic. and full so like at that point I'm like. we can go over there nobody will notice. like we've tucked away. um so that's what we did in. that night we really got to know each. other so it was a couple months later. he's like you know that night when we. tucked away I'm like yeah you're off. that day he said you saved my life that. day. and I said I did well I mean I kind of. laughed like haha I did what.

he said no I sat there with a gun. and your text telling me I was late stop. me. and. I don't know if I believed him at first. like it seemed too big like. took me a minute to grasp that and then. it took me to a very very scared place. for many years I didn't want to be a. savior. I didn't want that pressure. um but I love this man so deeply it. there's no way I was gonna let go of him. either.

at dinner. two nights ago I guess now. um. you had mentioned the first time that. you met Tom. who sounds like a complete disaster. and so I'd like you to I'd like you to. tell that story. may I actually called him a seal first. time. I can see how they would turn into a. disaster I. um I knew very little about Special. Operations my dad served Air Force but.

he was out before I was born my brother. left when I was 10 for military so of. course my family had a deep love and and. very patriotic but I didn't know. anything like my dad never talked about. my brother never talked about it so when. I was called up to do this job I said no. I don't I don't want to do that I'm. working at Fashion I'm doing sports I'm. doing all this other stuff I'm in. commercial advertising I'm fine I don't. need to go work with special operations. a bunch of like testosterone dudes that. I don't even know what they do and by.

the way I've never held a gun in my life. like I don't know anything about this. you're gonna do better I even gave them. names like call this guy call this guy. call this guy. former Ranger was my client so I was. volunt told like no you're gonna go on. this one and then you don't have to go. back like you could move back on to. another project. so. I kind of didn't want to be there I was. like let's get this over with kind of. thing I was walking down the hall and. the the guy who owned this company was a.

former unit member. and so he stops like really dramatically. and he said have you ever seen Black. Hawk Down. and I'm like yeah it's been a minute. like it was 2001 right he's like yeah. side note my former place that I used to. work at were all guys I was the only. female designer there and Black Hawk. Down had come out that year so. constantly on our big big screen like. our movie theater spice green where we'd. show our commercials it would play 24 7.

so like I had this thing in me when he's. like do you know Blackhawk Down I'm like. yeah I'm really well versed in it man I. know that movie it's great. um you used to have to tell them can you. turn it down because the clients are. hearing gunfire in the background and. nobody's shooting guns here so. I kind of made a little joke like yeah I. know it and you're about ready to go. meet. two of the guys that were almost like oh. my gosh wow my mind's like Eric Bana was.

in that like I start thinking about all. these really cute guys that were like oh. okay I'm gonna go meet some of the guys. from Black Hawk Down. you know and I said he said you know. what Delta Force is right because these. guys were not in the ranger group but in. the Delta Group and I go yeah that's. like a Navy SEAL right. and you stop me and he goes excuse me. and I go. I go what like they're they're like the. army seals right and he said we'll have. a history lesson and I'll catch you up.

after this he never did but it was his. way of telling me like you don't know. what you're talking about better zip it. and. took his advice for about three and a. half years I kept my lips zipped after. that. um but I walked in the room and Tom's. sitting there and he's like way. overweight kind of ready red from. drinking all the time and I looked down. and I was like ew and it's not Eric Mana. or one of the other boys from Blackhawk. Down and then I thought wait it's been. like 10 years since that 20 years since.

the actual event. yeah these guys are going to be older. now. um and there was a haunted so it was at. a place where there was this haunted. hotel and insane asylums in Indiana. ironically where he was born is where we. met. and I said hey like let's go check out. this haunted house this like unit guy. like he cares. and he's like nah it's okay like I'll. hard past that and so I don't know I. didn't think much of them he didn't. think much of me clearly didn't even.

know who I was so it really wasn't until. we started working on a few iterations. where. he actually started talking because he. was super quiet at first and I think he. said his awesome first line was I. friended you on LinkedIn. yeah. cool congratulations congrats I'm glad. we're friends. what was it about Tom that that really. got your attention. he was a bad boy.

be quite honestly I mean. I had spent many years as a party girl. um a lot of untreated trauma I realize. now but I went into mom mode for a very. long time and. I was the total. soccer mom and it felt. inauthentic I guess in some ways never. about my children I adore my children I. get a lot of for how much. I adore my children. um but I think being raised in an. abusive household I overcompensated the.

other way but when I went out with Tom I. wasn't mom anymore I was back to Jen. and back to Reckless party girl and I. had a lot of fun quite honestly I had a. lot of fun. yeah. but this is almost. contradictive of itself you know because. you fixed them or you're a big part of. fixing them so.

but you're having fun being back in oh. yeah in that in that mindset. so. so you had to sacrifice a lot because. you're having fun to to to get him. better so what at what point did you. decide. we both need to clean that up a. little bit. before our wedding was it because of Tom. that you decided yeah because I lived. this total crazy weird double life for a. very for the i i embedded for about.

three and a half years as combat camera. on Stateside Mission so for those three. and a half years I'd go away for two. weeks come back for two weeks go away. for four weeks come back for a week gone. for two weeks back for a week so I was. constantly moving to either a different. team a different rmt different training. cycle and then I started to get why the. guys wanted it and wanted to go back. because then that started to happen to. me I'd be home for three days and I'm. like. all right what what teams got you know.

even if I wasn't assigned to that team I. would call my boss like hey you want. combat camera yeah I just I just got. home nope put me on it so you got. addicted to it I didn't for sure. I ate the camaraderie the embracing the. suck like because it sucked I mean we're. in warehouses with. I don't know it feels like 150 degrees. and you're there for 16 hours and. everybody hates life and then you all. have a great time and high five after. and it felt good to be part of something.

bigger it felt good to be part of. something that I felt like these guys. are making a difference I'm super super. small part of it but I'm part of it of. these guys going out. and doing what nobody else wants to do. by the way I spent my life as a creative. and at that point at 38 I'm like I got. to be a creative I got to be an art. director and a filmmaker. instead of going off to war because I. could have gone off to war and done none. of these things.

but I got to do my job because these men. and women are doing the really shitty. hard jobs. so I became super appreciative all the. Hollywood stuff. all the. lies. that are told about you guys. started appealing for me Bit by Bit by. Bit. and I'm like they've got it so wrong. so wrong these guys are humanitarians. they're meant to be treated like and. talked about like they're monsters. humanitarians.

they're the best of the best and the. strongest of the strongest so I. quickly wanted to be part of that tribe. I saw the love of the Brotherhood. frankly and I was brought into that just. in a little bit. um it felt good you had mentioned at. dinner. it sounded like there was an exact. moment where it all switched for you and. it was a Green Beret that said. you tell it. oh gosh which one the.

um we're humanitarians oh God I love. that he really so I didn't know the. mission of the Green Berets like oh and. they're door kickers right like that's. what they do they go in they're badasses. they fight it when they come home. and when I started working with them. they're like there's the chaplain. there's these people and these and they. started going through the different. teams and I'm like what do you guys do. like what's your mission set. and he said to it to free the oppressed. you know we we go in as Nation Builders. we were humanitarians.

and I looked at him I said what. he's like yeah we build Nations we go in. and we help the oppressed we free them. that's our job. I said nobody's ever put it that way to. me you always hear fight for freedom but. no no one had ever put it that way we're. the humanitarians going in trying to. stop the bad guys to build the new so. that the good guys in that Community can. thrive. and that's what you guys do. pretty cool pretty cool house which.

story like that oh yeah I became the. biggest fan girl. I mean the amount of respect and. love that I developed. for our war Fighters and their families. I mean it took me a while for families. so I spent three and a half years. working with teams but then I started. quite honestly it came with a seal who. said can you talk to my wife here's her. phone number. and it didn't go so well at first. because she had a female calling saying. I'm calling about your husband and it.

really threw her off I don't do that. anymore I don't call spouse is you know. cold but. that's how it started. and I started talking to spouses who are. like I'm not getting the same guy he's. leaving for a deployment and pieces of. him aren't coming back. and so when he's gone not only am I. praying for him to come home but I'm. praying for like all of him. to come home. let's talk about your wedding night. Tom doesn't remember much of it I'm sure.

you do. what happened I you know I started down. the same road as him doing shots I. wasn't so smart we were both stressed. out. we get to the bar after and. um a lot of work friends right so all. the military element comes in not their. fault they weren't shoving drinks on our. throat we did that. um but I think at that time still is. very permissible like you're gonna drink. you're gonna be Reckless you're gonna. have fun and that's still the phase that.

we were in at that time and so. I think I looked over at Tom maybe on. his fifth shot. and I had stopped and I looked at him. and I said hey like. it's probably good for the night that. was not received well. um I think he kind of went the opposite. like don't tell me to stop drinking and. so he started drinking more and more and. more to the point where we ended up at a. second like Rooftop Bar. we sit down and there's a band I love to.

dance like that was always a joke with. the guys because I'm like oh put on some. music and. and so everybody you know these guys. take me to this box they're like oh look. at Jen dancing you know it'll be fun. and he sat down with. um the co-owner we had a started a a. special operations training company so. the third party to that he sat down with. his wife and spent the entire night. chatting with her in the corner. I felt completely betrayed like. small invisible.

um like I made a mistake. quite frankly. because I thought this is going to be. our life. this train wreck right now is going to. be my life. um so as we were walking back I said do. you know you didn't even. talk to me tonight nonetheless dance. with me or kiss me or anything you spent. the entire night in the corner. talking to her like that's really weird. right. woof it just it was full explosion.

because I think he realized in that. moment. you just embarrassed the crap out of me. um I'm ashamed and so he literally was. yelling at me so loud walking down the. street in Savannah I'm in a wedding. dress. he's in his outfit I still have my. bouquet so here people are like honking. and waving I have tears. we get into the hotel the Hilton and the. manager comes over because Tom's yelling. at me so loud going up the escalator. that he meets me to the other side and.

said looked at me a mouth do you want me. to call security. I said no. so you sure. and I said yes and he says I have your. room number meaning I'll be listening. um no one's ever done that to me in my. life. said like I'm watching out for you a. manager of a hotel. I became embarrassed ashamed like what. situation am I in that somebody is. stopping me saying I'm here to help you. from your husband. we got into the room.

um there was a makeup case and Things by. and he just started tossing them just. started throwing things across the room. in the back of my mind I'm thinking of. that manager too like oh my gosh that. manager is going to hear he's going to. hear this Tom Tom so I'm telling him to. be quiet and don't worry about it you. know he grabbed me a few times threw me. to the ground. and on the third time he had kind of. thrown and pushed me he pushed me hard. to the point where I thought. this could get dangerous this could get.

deadly. he's he's raging he's full on in a space. where I'm afraid of him now so I locked. myself in the bathroom. I didn't sleep all night I sat up all. night just thinking. if I leave him he will pull the trigger. for sure. for sure I cannot leave him. I can't leave him like this and I can't. stay. so what do I do exactly. and I didn't have an answer.

I just waited till he woke up and kind. of looked at me and I was holding the. certificate and I said. I just don't know if we should turn this. in and it wasn't a threat it wasn't like. a I'm gonna try to trick you into this I. legitimately thought. I just made a big mistake. I have two small children I can't bring. you into my home. like this. and so we sat on a beach for a few hours. he has to hold my hand I said no.

he respected that he said can we talk I. said no. so for about. two and a half three hours we just sat. there staring at the water. and I prayed. I asked God to fix this for me. and I wasn't I don't want to say I. wasn't a Believer because I was I always. believe in God but I was not a. practicing person in the spiritual way. at all. but I felt a calmness come over me I. reached over and I grabbed his hand and.

I said if you get help on Monday. I'll stay. but you have to get better or I have to. go you understand that right like I have. to go if you can't get better it's not. safe for me to be with you so I say for. my children to be with you it's not safe. for your child to be with you when you. behave this way. he said I understand and on Monday he. had an appointment. and I had hope. how long did it how long how much time. had passed before he saw him again. three weeks three weeks three weeks he.

got married and then you didn't see your. husband for three weeks yeah it probably. could have been longer he was offered to. do a part of our Contracting elsewhere. and he decided that. probably not a good idea. decided to move to St Louis at that. point so I flew out to Savannah helped. him pack his stuff he was going to come. a few months later but. he said I need to be with you now I need. to do this with you. how much improvement had you seen in. three weeks.

he was playing a good game for a while. but it was a game. he had not fully bought into this. healing stuff yet so I saw. the Tom who was trying really hard like. what he thought healing looked like or. to to be healed to look like he was. reading books and quoting like you know. The Four Agreements all the time and I'm. like maybe he is getting it it's a great. book it is a great book and quite. honestly people at work he'd come in. he's like you should not take things. personally and he would quote these.

things and they're like. who's this guy like what they look at me. like you bro literally I've had many. people told me I broke him I'm like what. that he's like healing he's not a jerk. all the time if that's breaking him then. okay I broke him I made him do yoga yes. I did. it's okay he's still a badass. but it was about three years before I. saw true change three years what. how many things did he tried in three.

years. Transcendental Meditation we did. pharmaceutical supplementation which. helped him a lot so getting all of his. biology kind of right that's where we. focused first was I started reading. everything that I could about PTSD and I. was like okay this is what PTSD is and I. remember calling him like here's the. checklist and they have 36 things on. here and you have like 45 I added some. like you definitely have this he's like. no I don't the Army didn't give me PTSD.

and I said what do you mean they didn't. I'm like I've seen Black Hawk Down. there's no way you came out of that okay. like there's just no way we never really. talked about Black Hawk Down just one. time. he said no I only have the 10 disability. kid you not and he had nine surgeries so. um we found a woman named Peggy through. a friend and he was re-qualified at like. 220 percent and he absolutely was. checked with TBI and PTs. um understanding that diagnosis or.

how to tackle it gave us a starting. place of wait a minute this Reckless. Behavior acting this way is part of it I. always thought I was a bad team like I. was just a bad kid. and then I'm like wait some of the same. behavior these soldiers have was the. same behavior I had. totally different set of trauma totally. different set of circumstances Behavior. very similar. so in healing him I healed myself for. sure when did you guys decide to.

when did the idea of the all-secure. foundation start it was two things. really. um I was on the last exercise I would do. it was four weeks it was with the Seal. team and I didn't want to be gone that. long anymore for my children by this. time it had been almost three and a half. years in and I thought what am I doing. like I need to be at home. um I want to be at home. so that exercise for me as a mom did it.

I'm like I can't keep going like this. um so family was a priority and I. thought well what am I going to do when. I put my camera down and I'm done with. this. and I told Tom I said you know what. we've helped all these guys go to war. like but nobody's helping them come home. it's like what I keep hearing and on. that last iteration. um two seals were killed previously and. so this team was the team that had come. back. one of these guys is 28 years old and he. looks 45 to me now I saw him on an. iteration a year and a half before.

and I could just see it on all of their. faces it was so heavy and so I asked one. of the guys who I knew closer I said how. are you doing. I mean it was yeah it's good you know I. know how are you how are you doing how. are you grieving. and once I said that he just looked at. me and he said we don't do that. I said you don't grieve. now there's no time for that. it broke my heart it broke my heart I. know these men love these other men and. to have them say we don't grieve. I talk about an unrealistic expectation.

of a human being. um their Commander had become friends. with Tom. we had done a few iterations so I knew. him as well and I asked Tom would it be. out of place for me to call him these. guys are suffering nobody's doing. anything for them on the teams even I. had asked a few other guys you guys at. least talking to each other I get it. like the organization's not doing. anything. you guys going out and getting a beer. are you talking about it that's not what. we do that's not what we do that's what. I kept hearing I called the commander.

and I said. your guys are really I'm just coming to. you maybe out of place I don't know but. I've talked to like four guys on your. team and they're all really messed up. about this and nobody's talking and. nobody's helping them. he said we have Behavioral Health they. know where to go. that was it. I told Tom I said this is unnatural it's. unnormal this is not the way humans are. supposed to survive. and and nobody's training them it's not. that they need to know it's not that. they're broke and I hated that like.

these guys are broken well no if. you saw the things that they saw and did. the things they did which is completely. incomprehensible by the way to most. civilians we have no idea and by the way. the movies don't get it right most of. the times some of them do. so I didn't go to combat but I spent. years and years training with them and. even the training Cycles are completely. traumatic and stressful I the very first. one on a seal died by the truck um. rotating and flipping. and on day one they're like training's. over and I remember asking Tom like what.

happened. and he said well someone was killed. and I said here oh yeah a vehicle rolled. on my very first exercise and I thought. I asked him I said God how often do. people die in training he said all the. time. people have no idea. um so. I said listen they're not broken this is. biological this is a total biological. because then I started learning about. pts so I'd start telling all the guys on. target like hey hey go go get natural.

Pharmaceuticals start sleeping right you. know do these things talk to a therapist. and really loved kind of that process of. talking to them and they're like hey can. I call you when this exercise is over to. see what Tom's doing next yeah yeah. here's my phone number. and then I would spend 11 hours a day on. the phone just next dude next dude can. you talk to this guy on the next team. yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. um try this try that go to meditation do. this and I said we need to do this we. need to help train people on how to come.

home. and Tom's like you mean a non-profit I'm. like yeah he's like it's you're a. marketing and a film girl and I was in. the unit like what do we note about. non-profits and I'm like. everything's figure outable we'll figure. it out like you just said it you were in. the unit you did harder things we'll. figure this out. it took a few years but we did. you have you're like an encyclopedia of. statistics.

uh when it comes to PTSD and and all of. this stuff the suicides can you go. through some of the. statistics that really resonate with you. that you think will. will capture some attention. the first time I heard was on an. exercise well you know that there are 22. veterans a day that take their lives and. I said no way. I argued with the guy I said there's no. way 22 a day I said I would know about.

it like I'm plugged in now with this. community. so my you know my boyfriend has. pts and everything and I even knew he. had suicide attempts not only that as I. started to get to know Tom's friends I'm. like I know this is deeply personal what. this will really help me with like my. research and what I want to do. do you ever have suicidal ideations is. it okay if me asking you that every. single one of every single one of Tom's. friends said yes not a single one said. no.

and I was starting to hear not just once. a day but like 100 times a day I think. about it. and so I started telling my civilian. friends do you ever hear this number 22. veterans a day take their life every. single civilian friend of mine had the. same reaction that's not true that's too. high there's no way we would know we. would know about that. so I called mission 22. their name is. Mission 22 you got this 22 a day where. did you get that number from. and they were very gracious and they. talked to me a lot as we were starting.

up our foundation well this comes from. va statistics and numbers so I started. poking at the VA and it's really really. difficult to get numbers and for a. number person who likes to have that. line I started realizing well it depends. on who you ask now. you know just on TV recently I heard 17. a day which is grossly underestimated. so I started doing more research and I. looking into that and I looked at the VA. piece from 2014 and they left out. several States and then I started asking.

for additional research and nobody had. it even the organizations that Tom and. others were in do you have statistics on. this do you have numbers on this do you. know what's going on here. nope nope nope nope nope well just this. last year. um I talked to a man Jim Lorraine and. and we were chatting about the numbers. and he's like well it's actually 44 a. day and I said what. 22 days insane it's over 8 000. now. you're telling me it could be up to 16. 000 a year a year.

that's like we went to war because of 9. 11. there were over 2 600 people that. died so that would be like I don't know. four or five nine elevens happening. every year just to our veteran. population every single year that. happening. if that were kindergarten teachers. people would be paying attention. but to say they're 16 up to 16 000. suicides a year. I haven't seen a news report about it. I haven't heard people really talk about.

it. and I don't know why people have asked. me why do you think it is is it the. Assumption there were Fighters and this. is the natural progression well that's. sick you knew what you're signing up for. at 18. no you didn't. and by the way even if you did that. means that it's okay for you to take. your life because of the trauma that. resulted in it it makes no sense to me. makes no sense there's no if there were. one a day it'd be too many. but 44 is. I don't know.

how many veterans have killed themselves. since 9 11. up to well again the numbers can be. quite skewed I've heard anywhere from 65. to 140 000 in the same amount of time. we've had roughly 6 000 deaths by killed. in action so. the enemy as you can see. they're not touching American war. Fighters American war Fighters are. taking themselves out. they actually made a propaganda video. about that. did they I saw it it came out.

probably. seven or eight years ago. they actually they talk about it. I mean I know you're the interviewer but. how does that make you feel when you. learn that statistic. it. brings me to rage. but that's big that's probably because.

um. I mean now Tama described that earlier. too sadness turns to rage anxiety turns. to rage any any emotion other than. happiness pretty much just goes straight. to rage for sure in resentment and. when I hear things like that and I hear. civilians don't know they don't really. care Canadians are doing better in. assisted suicide wouldn't surprise me if.

that comes into the U.S I don't I mean. I got my benefits from Petty Peggy. Matthews too. I won't even step foot in a VA after. those initial what do they call them the. exams that they give you I think I went. back one time. and uh I never I just don't think they. have your best interest we were there.

one time too we left mid appointment. Peggy even told me don't ever don't ever. go in there. and um. I mean it just I don't feel like it's in. the va's best interest to Keep Us Alive. it costs money I agree you see the staff. that they hire I mean you go to the. doctor I remember I remember the time. that I did go I went to a doctor who. barely spoke in English and she was. wearing sweat a sweat suit like. sweatpants and a sweatshirt.

you're. my doctor. didn't even know what a seal was. didn't care. didn't want to know wanted to know why I. didn't go to Medical. you know after the mission and it's it's. there is no medical lady you know and. and you can't get your drugs prescribed. anywhere else they feed you the drugs. that you don't need you know and it's. it's like okay so you want me to die.

you're gonna prescribe me with. painkillers benzos whatever sleeping. pills whatever you can get your hands on. for sure give them to me give me. addicted. and then later yep see you later I mean. so essentially we're already doing. veteran-assisted suicide right here at. the VA because that's what they do is. pump you full of drugs maybe it's gotten. better that was. I mean that was. get it's getting close to 10 years you.

know so maybe there's been some. improvement I don't know. we walked out of the only one we went. into Tom was on 14 pills. and doing nothing for him except for. everything wrong and then I started. Googling and I'm like why are you how. long have you been taking this pill he. was like 14 years I go oh it says on. here for short-term six-month usage and. he's like what and I showed it to him. and I'm like we got to get you off these. pills and we go to the appointment I. tell the doctor first of all I said well.

he was in the unit where the amount of. cancer. and and rare diseases coming out of. there. is relevant information to a doctor and. I said he served in the unit he goes I. don't see how that's relevant I don't. see why that matters I'm like he spent. 20 years in combat. filthy places training in places with. asbestos all kinds of things. how do you not find that relevant and. then I looked down and he starts writing. a script. right after we said we want to get him.

off these pills. he said here's two more. you could pull this one off and take. these two. then I go stand up. and Tom stood up and we just turned and. walked out like we're leaving never went. back and he got off all 14 pills. became much clearer much better after he. didn't for sure. kid. it enrages me and I I don't go there. very often you know because of that but.

um. and it's it's I mean I found other ways. you know Peggy Matthews my doctor. um. psychedelics. for sure therapy well. I just started finding other ways to. treat myself rather than than the the no. but you took it upon yourself. and you took the effort and you made it. and I think that's what's so necessary. is that and the part with Tom saying. that you saved me I'm like I wish I had.

that power because then I'd just go. around and save everyone I'd be like. Jesus like all right I'm gonna walk on. some water everybody's good I don't have. that power there's already been a. messiah. all I can do is say there's a better. life than the one you're living right. now I mean I think a lot of guys find. I think I don't know how to say this but. I think myself included. it takes. for me it took seeing how many lives I. destroyed that loved me oh everybody.

around me I destroyed every relationship. around me my family. ex-relationships uh friends you know in. I saw I I saw the eggshell syndrome. without knowing what egg shell syndrome. is uh which you guys were talking about. the other night and um it it.

you just realize you're a monster I mean. just beating the out of people with. bars for no reason. I mean. ditch has got to be it it's it's. humiliating. it's humiliating and you don't realize. how abnormal that is until you. leave until you leave the the unit or. the team or that that culture because. that. probably get a lot of for saying.

this but that's the culture you know you. show up you get you work hard you play. hard you play at least as hard as you. work for sure and. what are you immersed in your immersed. in violence. womanizing booze. and and rewarded for it you get a medal. for it you get a lot of pats on the back. when you bring the girl home yeah and a. lot of raised eyebrows if you don't if. you're not drinking if you're not. bringing someone home if you're not. playing that Warrior Reckless lifestyle. then something's wrong with you so I.

mean the team doesn't trust you if you. don't drink 100 we just had a retreat. had four active duty Green Berets each. of them opened up on the very last day. because one of them said. so glad that this was not like an. alcohol infused weekend thank you for. not bringing alcohol now Tom and I in. the organization won't say okay we're. done at seven we're not babysitting you. we're not going go to your room and. don't drink but we encourage people like. do something different if it's not. working for you.

do something different this trip and. when they come to our dinners there's no. alcohol. and and so he said you know normally. even though I don't drink and I'm trying. trying this sober thing I get so much. from my teammates for not drinking. that I end up drinking just to shut them. up. and he's like I'm really trying to be. sober the three other dudes at the table. all did the me too me too me too. and I was so grateful they had that. moment together. because that's leadership I can go back. now and say. I'll go to the bar with you but I'm.

gonna drink a water no big deal man. no big deal you know misery loves. company and you got a bunch of miserable. people they're all gonna try to tear the. tower down next to me even though. there's love there I got it I mean. people have asked me why were you able. to forgive Tom so quickly for his. infidelity and I said because I saw the. culture he was raised in from the time. he was 19 years old and he stayed there. until he was 46. I saw how he was raised. and how he was raised was it's normal to.

drink and drink at all it's normal to. womanize. get them all I I saw it on trips I saw. it on iterations like three and a half. years of that I got it so I was able to. forgive him saying I got it but that. shit's not gonna happen again. that's done. that part of the warrior lifestyle is. not coming into this marriage because. I'll end it that'll be it. in fact when he proposed I'm like I. don't know if I want to be a wife. Stone out. I see how a lot of guys talk about the.

wives why would I want to be that. what did he say it'll be different with. us. how long did it take for it to be. different. about five years. a lot of. only threatened him once that I would. leave him and that was our wedding the. the day after our wedding never. threatened that I would leave him again. I didn't want to leave him loved him. intensely still love him intensely. but the demons that had gotten really.

big became really scary and really. dangerous. and so there were moments of I'm not. gonna leave you but we're gonna get. separate Apartments. you're gonna move out for a minute so. that I can remain safe while you're. healing. and I think. the frying pan came to I'm gonna get an. apartment I'm just gonna leave and I'm. like here's your keys you want me to. help you pack. he was like oh. this is real I'm like yeah this is real.

not just because I wanted a better life. that I felt I deserved because I knew I. when Tom was good he was so good when we. were good we were great. and all the good moments because people. would say why did you say I'm like. because our good is so good or good is. so great it's amazing it's the best I've. ever had. we are each other's best friends. and I've got his back and that meant. good times and bad. and there was plenty of bad. I never threatened that I'd leave him.

though. but he knew there were moments where. like if it was close. and he was miserable. he was he doesn't want to live that way. either. he just didn't know how to get out of it. and he thought I'm stuck this way. forever I guess I'm just broken this way. forever and it's not true what was your. biggest fear. after that wedding denied what was your. biggest fear. I quite honestly was afraid.

he would hurt me. unintentionally in a way that it would. shame him so much that he would take his. life that it would be a situation that. we know happens. a Warfighter hurts their spouse. then hurts themselves and and it's more. common than you think. it's a leading cause of suicide in. veteran Community is after a family. disturbance. they take their life is it really. I didn't know that it's the highest.

percentage by far by far is after a. family disturbance 90 alcohol or pills. are involved as well so that tells me. where Fighters don't want to take their. life if you have to be so drunk or so. high to do it I've talked to you I don't. know how many now hundreds of guys I've. heard all of their stories each one. unique each one painful each one. different but the similarity is none of. them wanted to do it. I just felt like I'm a monster I'm. ruining my family's life my kids hate me.

they're afraid of me. maybe I put my hands on them. um Maybe not maybe it's just that I've. isolated so much that they're all done. with me now I'm not a war fighter I have. no purpose my family hates me. bye but it's gonna take a fifth of Jack. to get me there. tell me about. so you guys started about this. non-profit all secure Foundation how did. you decide what you were going to focus. on. it was really tough because at first I.

was so excited and I started using so. the last iteration I'd gone on and then. there was one more exercise where I was. in combat camera but Tom was on it was. with PJs and so I said can I come fly. out and just watch the exercise talk to. the boys he's like yeah come on out so I. went out and I just used that as. basically my research time what I. started to find out was I started asking. the guys do you need to help with. Fitness do you need help with mental. health do you need help in giving him. all the pts boxes. and what happened is the less click. iteration in the last PJ iteration nine.

out of ten guys said a terrible husband. I'm a terrible father I don't know how. to put the monster back in the box. that's what I need help with nine out of. ten said I want to be a better person at. home. so I said that's where we need to focus. and then really kind of what capped it. off was we ended up helping a Warfighter. get into Warrior's Heart that's an. organization that helps people with pts. and TBI but you also need to be either a. war fighter or law enforcement so it's. very specific to the community helped.

get him fully funded paid for he's in. the facility Tom and I are feeling. really good about it he's a friend of. ours he's getting sober but about two. weeks in I'm like who's checking on his. wife and kids how long is he going to be. in this program 14 weeks only 14 weeks. how's he leaving his job how's he. providing for his family like he's a. contractor are they okay nobody knew. nobody knew none of his friends and I. wasn't really good friends with his. family but I ended up finding her on. Facebook and I reached out how are you. doing she's I am terrible I'm in the.

worst spot of my entire life ever. my husband's cleaning up and I just. found out about the Affairs about the. money gone he's he's feeling great I. feel like and nobody's helping me. nobody's helping me in the kids. so I'm out here alone after 25 years of. deployments he's going to go get better. and I'm stuck here again. and that was the moment I said no no we. don't focus on the Warfighter we focus. on the war fighter and their spouse and. then eventually we'll get to the kids we.

can figure out HIPAA but. we got to start with both and so. at our organization today if a spouse a. divorcee gold star anyone calls us and. says my Warfighter is not here they're. not willing to get help they don't want. to get help whatever it may be fine come. on this organization is equally built. for you. how long did it take for you guys to put. all these things in place I mean that's. a. you've got to narrow down to the family. you know so now what so we started with.

the therapist that Tom and I had worked. with she never worked with military. before. she got us she got us quick. um we probably wouldn't be married. without her quite honestly. um so. one day she had said something to us she. had done an exercise with Tom and she. asked him to take the anger and remove. it from himself. and I could see he was like oh great. we're going into this like really. woo-woo. therapy thing I could almost see an eye. roll and she's like can you take the.

angry part of you and put it in the. chair next year he's like. shifting like okay and then she started. asking him to describe the anger what. does it look like and he described. crawler he described his call sign fully. kitted out then I could see it was. starting to work and she's like what do. you have to say to him if he's the anger. if he's bringing the rage into the house. what do you want to say to him. and I'm kind of waiting for a smart-ass. typical Tom answer but then I could see. that he was actually doing what the.

therapist said he was doing his best and. trying to visualize this and he got. really teary-eyed. and he just said I don't need you. anymore. thank you for keeping me alive over. there thank you for helping me bring my. brothers home. I don't need you anymore I got it. and the way it changed for us at home. after that is that I could start using. the language of crawler and we agreed in. the therapy room I would never use it. hey you've been an crawler you. know never ever used crawler I love.

crawler. I respect crawler crawler is needed in. this world he's just not needed in my. kitchen he's not needed dealing with the. kids so it's always out of respect but. when I would see him get big get red get. rage. I would have a language a point of. stopping that saying I don't need. crawler to go tell the kids to clean the. room you don't need crawler to go on a. date with me tonight I want Tom back. and at first it was a screw that and. that's not working you know resistance. to that change.

I would say two weeks in really quick. when I said it again. it's kind of getting intense here. crawler showed back up screw that doors. are slamming it comes out two minutes. later out of the room not two hours not. two days. two minutes and he's like. you're right but I can't put him back in. the box. so that's okay we've identified it what. do you need to do. so I need to go for a drive for a while. bye come back in an hour or ten I don't. care it's fine you know this biological.

response that you had to 20 years of. living a really difficult I mean that's. putting it mildly right intense life is. going to have an effect on you that's. normal that's the normal part is that it. affects you scary if it doesn't. so you got the therapist in yeah so. sorry we got the therapist in. this was in 16 we became a 501 C3 and 17. official and we started with coaching so.

let's just get the guys in we'll get. them to Stacy they can help. these couples in the way that we've been. helped that was that's the goal. um right now we just brought in our. fifth so we have five licensed clinical. social workers that are all coaches. um and we do programs so we have a. marriage Retreat that we absolutely love. we take 10 to 14 couples at a time and. they could we cross them so we'll have a. seal a Green Beret MARSOC PJ.

um ncos officers and we tell people on. day one nobody gives a about what. you did don't talk about it unless it. comes up later and you're hanging out. but this room is for war Fighters no. better where you surfed or how you. surfed or how long you served we're here. to deal with the afterwards how it. made you feel. and we're gonna work on it as a couple. we're gonna do this together that's your. Forever battle buddy by the way let me. introduce you to her the one that's been. sitting there for 25 years holding down. the fort it's her time to heal now too. it's going to take her a little time.

she's used to a different version what. do you what is the response like I mean. I don't think I wasn't married when I. was in and um. does it hit him do they know. like I didn't think about that we. had a unit guy show up to one of our. Retreats and he's one of our big. volunteers now he didn't believe he had. pts when he showed up on Friday. he said I'm here because Tom was my boss. and you guys were looking for people to.

fill the retreat and I thought quite. honestly it'd be a good weekend to see. Tom I haven't seen him in a few years. he came on a retreat he didn't talk the. entire time. some people will share hey this is. happening at home and then you get yeah. me too me too me too we see a lot of. elbows flying. which is a beautiful thing because it's. the first time most of these couples. realize I'm not alone. this happens more often than I even. imagined I'm not crazy there's a way to. the other side of this we can make it. through but this guy had said.

I operated at the highest level for a. very long time and to me pts was the. veteran under the bridge. or an alcoholic I don't drink I don't. have a problem drinking I don't have a. problem with rage well his problem was. isolating his problem was not being. present so some people look at pts and. they'll say well I don't rage. or I'm not an alcoholic so I don't have. it but then when we started going. through the other symptoms and other. things the anxiety the depression the.

loss of Joy the things that can show up. he identified with those pieces so on. Sunday he raised his hand and he said. I have PTS. I didn't realize it but now that I know. now I know how to fight this demon he. sent his wife home when he got home it's. one of my favorite stories. he said I knew I had to clean up my life. and I had to get rid of certain people. and certain things and it was going to. make me an why I did it I was. going to clean up my diet I was going to.

get rid of processed fruits I was going. to do the supplements that you guys. talked about. but I just had learned about eggshell. syndrome and what I've been putting my. other two wives through. so much so that he gave his ex-wife my. book. just as a sorry. sorry I did this to you. she wrote Our organization she'd even. write him back and said that it was. really powerful to get that from him in. recognition finally after 20 years. of what was happening inside the home. so.

people absolutely wake up to. it's not relegated to the vet under the. bridge or the alcoholic or the Pill. Popper. can be many different forms and it can. come in many different ways. it's biological it's not your fault if. you broke your arm in Iraq there's a. process for it they would treat it. it's the same thing you see a big. traumatic event the sooner you deal with. it the sooner you triage it the better. so that's why Tom and I go and speak at. bases we talk to these guys that are. brand not even Green Berets yet they're. in the Q course.

they look like my son's age it freaks me. out quite honestly I'm like I'm calling. your mom does she know you're here. but we talk about listen when you go to. war this is the reality of it this is. what you can feel when you come back. kind of like that psychiatrist did with. Tom you might experience these things. and we see a lot of guys on their phones. or ignoring us like this old couple. talking about but my hope is that that. day when they're raging and they're. feeling like I'm so broken what's wrong. with me.

they'll say Tom talked about that wait. this is normal. I I could go get help for this and I'll. be better because that's the truth. how many couples have you guys helped so. far. last count it was over 1500 but that's. 100 that's couples we also do. individuals so if there's a war fighter. listening in Special Operations he's not. in a couple or divorcing or divorced our. organizations for you as well. so. um individually we've probably helped.

well over five thousand five thousand. people. the funny thing is once you get to work. and people find out who you are we made. it super super easy connect with the. coach button on our website Boop within. 24 hours they're talking to somebody. we're not waiting four months you're not. waiting six months. quite honestly when somebody hits that. button for help we know we have a short. window to get them. we know we do usually it's 11 o'clock at. night when we get those messages those.

reach out for help we want to get them. right away and say we got you. and we don't do it all at all secure we. specialize in couples emotionally. focused therapy that's what we focus on. but we're connected to all of these. other amazing non-profits so somebody. comes forward and says I want the sgb. shot or I want to do psychedelics or can. I get some information about traumatic. brain injury we want to be their partner. their triage partner okay what is the. thing where are you bleeding out first. my relationship alcohol pills whatever. it may be then we know okay have you.

looked into these options first have you. looked into psychedelics have you looked. into sgb have you why don't you talk to. our coaches first and look at an. assessment with them. you'd be amazed how many people come. through our system they do five sessions. with us and they're like got it nobody's. training them. you guys are incredibly gifted smart. talented leaders just need to be told. what direction to go that's it man. that's amazing simpler than we make it. how long have you guys been around as a.

non-profit since 17 since 2017. officially only six years five thousand. sons of people in six years yeah. maybe more congratulations thanks what. do you guys need do you need what do you. need money more therapy well we can. always use money quite honestly we have. an admin donor which I'm really I'm. super proud of this company they. kind of wish to remain anonymous I might. get them to peek their heads out um. they're really good Missouri Family.

they're our admin partner so they cover. our salaries admin all of that stuff. they're our business partner running a. non-profit is a business we have staff. we have people that work for us they. help us to cover those costs so that. when people donate to our organization. 100 of that is going to go to a coach or. to one of our programs so it's going. directly to a Warfighter family we. always need more money because our. therapists and our coaches are expensive. we cover those costs the veteran doesn't. pay anything.

so we always need more money with more. money more therapists more development. of new project programs the program I'm. super passionate about is getting our. teens in. um. I don't think many people know but. children of combat Warriors who have pts. are twice as likely at least to take. their own life. twice as likely. I've heard. statistics are so tough. um but I know twice for spouses as well.

so for a spouse who's married to a. Combat Warrior who has pts she's twice. as likely to take her life as well I. think the Pentagon gave a whole 200. deaths. on 2019 to spouses but we know that. number is far far greater we've actually. been touched by families of Tom Tom. knows these men whose sons have taken. their lives with their guns. do you guys reach out to. Lucille teams the unit the groups what. are they what is the response.

there's two responses that we get if we. get a good leader we get a great. response hey can we show up can we come. talk to your boys yeah let's look at the. calendar let's look at the schedule. let's see what we can do. Donovan and bank is making a ton they're. a non-profit former Green Berets they're. making a ton of connections they were in. they were just recently out so they're. all over the place and I I'll check in. with them on how leadership's taking it.

we've seen both I mean I've literally. had a general told me I was full of. because he didn't like my numbers. he didn't think they were accurate. um. so I asked him for his numbers you know. because basically what we we come. forward is listen your relationship is. critical it's life-saving actually. I think one of the hardest things Tom. told to a seal he went through the Navy. SEAL foundation and spoke to one of the. teams and he said how many of you guys. would run out onto the battlefield and.

take a bullet for your friend. of course all I mean I think they're. seeing a cat guy show up so they had to. expand the rooms and it was just huge I. think they were coming in for War. Stories and he didn't give them any I. think there's probably a few. disappointed guys in the room but. he's like how many of you would do that. every hand you're looking across oh my. gosh yes yes yes me of course. and he said how many of you are going to. take a key from a guy when you know he's. drank the bar down. I'm gonna take the key away from him at. night and that bar who's gonna do that.

quiet. when he's picking up that girl you know. he's got a wife and two kids at home and. when that wife finds out she's going to. leave him that's loading a gun for that. dude we know statistically 89 are going. to take their life after something. happens at home divorce an embarrassing. thing. so you're willing to die from overseas. but you won't help him at home. how's this making any sense like how are. we having each other's back that's. either received really well or not well. at all. depends out.

how healed you are. so when I approached this General and I. said I need the divorce statistics from. you guys in Special Operations knowing. that if 89 are taken their lives after a. family incident how many divorces how's. divorce playing with war. we don't have those numbers yet the. highest rate is after a family incident. and you're not even you're putting your. money in your time and your effort over. here when that's four percent. it makes no sense and so research and.

numbers are critical because it helps. here's where the money needs to go. here's where the attention needs to go. this General stepped out on his own. after. probably he was embarrassed that on. Friday night he had to have his CSM call. me and say. we don't have numbers. on divorce statistics and Special. Operations I said might be a good time. to go get those seeing how the numbers. line up. they went and did their own research one. of the guys on her Retreat this year. said. guess what that General did research on. family after you were there I'm like.

amazing what did they find. 39 percent of suicides happen after a. family disagreement four percent for all. other. wow he goes you are right I go it's not. my numbers. it's their numbers I'm just bringing. them to you guys to say pay attention. put your money and your time and your. effort over here no longer can you go to. war and say the family's fine. it's not. they have to face the facts and whether. they will or not I guess it's up to. leadership.

do you feel like the majority are taking. it seriously no I do. I. I've heard some guys come up with some. pretty stupid excuses. and they're the ones that are super. unhealed and super in a bad place I. meant the commands. um I have seen some Pro so in 2013 is. when I first met Tom and worked with Tom. 2023 to then is drastically different I.

don't have to educate people on PTS. anymore I used to have to go on this is. the amygdala and this is the hippocampus. this is fight flight or freeze I used to. have to literally explain what pts was. when I'd go in to do my briefings I. don't do that anymore people get it. we've dropped the D in our organization. post-traumatic stress injury. um we don't identify it as a disorder. you can heal from it it's not a life. sentence it's a biological injury. I think they're getting that what I.

don't think they want to spend their. time on and money and effort is on the. family snow. they want to train they want to buy. Gucci gear they want the equipment we. still see that yes in fact we just asked. a company. um where's your potiff funds. and there was Zero we don't have any and. what's that and who's that and. preservation of the force and family and. no we don't know what that is Tom goes. what's your training budget 2 million. for this okay so all your money's going. to your guns none of it's going to the.

thing that's going to end up killing you. damn. that's pretty sad. and hopefully something will be done. about it. well. I'm sure a lot of them are listening. yeah I hope but uh. you guys better start making moves if. you are listening you know I hear you. hear officers all the time and Senior. enlisted oh we don't want to do this up. we might lose somebody we might lose. somebody I don't want to lose somebody I.

don't well you're losing people. left and right so get off your ass put. your ego aside and do something. you're the only ones in a position to do. something so do it. truly. makes my hair stand up I get so. angry thinking about it but um. well Jim what it would not cover. God. spiritual okay we'll get to that but um. I think for the organization I mean.

you ask what we need we always need. money with more money we have more. programs more coaches more people we can. help and then the awareness of your show. quite honestly it's been awesome even. just the little Instagram we had a lot. of connect with the coaches last night. that's our goal is to get folks from the. community to hit that button good yeah. good. what I do have one other question where. all are your guys's Retreats are they. always at the same locations we have. done them Johnny Morris said Bass Pro.

Shop he's a huge supporter of ours we. love Johnny uh we started our Retreats. did them every year at uh Big Cedar. Lodge out in Branson Missouri we are. looking to develop our own Camp home. front. um maybe in Montana somewhere in the. mountains that's in development right. now but what we're doing in October. looking to build in Nashville and then. do a West Coast maybe out by the seals. is to bring the information to them. that's immediate like almost triage so.

we're taking 150 versus 24 and we're. bringing in speakers over a two-day. event for couples individuals in the in. the Special Operations Community we have. some phenomenal speakers standing up and. and sharing how they made it through. operators field experts couples saying. yeah I struggled here and this is how I. got through and because it's so. different for every person we want to. hear multiple perspectives we want to. hear from a seal how he started sleeping. again and how that changed his life I.

want to hear from a Green Beret who had. done psychedelics and how that helped. him find God we need to bring in so many. different perspectives and we could do. that over these two days and at the end. of the day our goal is for that couple. every couple that's there is to say this. is my forever battle buddy I got your. six you got mine good no more of this. worse wife first wife depend upon a Miss. no more of this toxic culture and. marriages can exist because it's killing. them it's killing you guys.

man you guys are making a lot of waves. it's awesome congratulations and. um Jen I just it was an honor to have. you here and thank you for sharing all. that I know. some of that was probably not easy to to. get off your chest but um thank you and. uh. a lot of good is going to come your way. when this releases I know it will so. we've got an awesome audience these. people care incredible audience so.

really appreciate you having us on it no. it'll make a big big difference for a. lot a lot of people my pleasure. all right let's take a break.

the Jihadi Manifesto was recorded right. before his December suicide bombing. which killed seven CIA employees and a. Jordanian agent at this base in eastern. Afghanistan. so everybody wasn't supposed to be. outside there it was just supposed to be. the GRS team to meet him uh Darren and. the Jordanian officer were supposed to. be there and that's it.

thank you that was a last minute thing. there everybody comes out to form a. greeting line and unfortunately that. gets a lot of people killed that. wouldn't have otherwise been dead today. and he boastfully showed off the trigger. or the bomb strapped to his butt. for you. it's not watching it to kill as much as. I can.

ask them there's like let's go out. performance. I mean a great line. I don't know if you know this I mean we. worked at the same Department over at. CIA. [Music].

all right Tom I promise this is the last. segment I gotta follow my wife that's. hard you ready I'm ready all right. so talking to your wife and you after. after Jen was just on her I didn't. realize that all secure Foundation is. helping. it's not just veterans it's active guys. sounds like there's a lot of active duty. guys and so. we had talked about how.

none of the information gets out you. guys don't keep records I think it's. really important that you elaborate on. that because we got a lot of active guys. that watch the show you know and so they. need to know that their information is. safe. it's not going to get out and so I just. want you to go into that for a minute. yeah that's one of the biggest worries. and that was one of the biggest worries. that I had and other people had if I. open up command won't trust me there's. something wrong with me the Sykes will. say something I'll lose my clearance. I'll get pulled I'll lose my job.

recess. that's your commands are here. to help you because the commands be like. we're here to help them we're here to. take care of them we're here for them. and we believe them. and then we start hearing from command. and some other mid-level leaders like. you need to self-assess you can't get a. DOI and then say a post-traumatic stress. I can't help you then you have to. self-assess pre you know before you do. something horrible or negative. a lot of these guys won't come and get. help so they won't reach out they're. afraid we're going to talk to their. command so they don't go to their.

shrinks they don't go to local shrinks. because they keep records. so we have coaches. and our coaches are not required to. hand out or maintain any records. and I've been approached by two or three. different organizations from people who. are going through like drying out you. know camps or or checking into other. hospitals and they've requested. paperwork. and it absolutely won't hand it to them. and we don't legally we are not bound to. hand them any information because we. don't provide counseling we provide. coaching.

and so your records are safe. your name is safe you hit connect with. the coach button on our website and it. goes straight to generi and then it goes. directly to a coach. who won't give out your information and. Jen and I would never get out of. anybody's information so the active duty. has started flowing in more with that. trust and I hope that word of mouth goes. out that hey you can be trusted they can. be trusted not to tell anybody and. they're not sharing your stories and. names around the world. and people have started reaching out. more that way knowing that they can. trust us not to share who who's asking a.

lot of spouses are actually reaching out. too because their husband's like don't. reach out because they'll ask and then. they'll talk about me and then they'll. know about me. so they know as well are you guys the. only ones reaching the active duty. I've not heard anybody else. I don't know. um. I would hope not I would hope we weren't. the only ones. I think maybe. have to do some people who feel is. relegated to active counseling active. counselors.

um. I think other organizations offer help. but there's a real fine line between if. you're active what help you can go get. so people are seeking it on their own. behind the scenes you know and possibly. doing illegal things in order to get. their own help that's how difficult it. is. when active Team guys and special ops. guys have to go behind the scenes and do. psychedelics or or do other treatments. because they know they need help that. tells me their organizations are not. helping them.

very true so we think we when we spoke. at Congress we talked to. some staffers. and they were talking about how you're. talking about the VA you're trying to. approve get this thing approved for the. VA biomarkers where they could determine. through biomarkers who has. post-traumatic stress because they were. worried about some people are faking it. you know and that's money right that's. money to someone faking it and then. others who won't claim it so okay you. can get a you can take a blood draw find. these biomarkers that'll tell you you.

have post-traumatic stress so we went. and spoke about post traumatic stress. how it affected Our Lives both of us. spoke and they ended up passing that. maybe two and a half years later they. got that bill passed well just recently. that's awesome while we're up there it's. all VA it's all VA the staffers said we. want to take you to our congressman. who's now dead but I want to take you to. our congressman and we want this in the. dod as well and it made sense if you. take care of them while they're in it. won't be as bad when you get out we've. always been preaching it so we were. happy when they said the dod wanted to.

pick it up. I doubt that happened um but the VA got. what they needed out of it and we. started determining that helping active. duty. keeping them stronger while they're in. helping them stay healthy will give them. a healthier family relationship at home. which will give them a better team time. their people can trust them they can. hopefully spread that to the team the. positivity versus the negativity. and then when they do get out that. transition's a bit easier they've. already had that connection with mental. health they don't feel embarrassed to. reach out and then they continue to. reach out and they continue to heal.

so it's not like we're starting at. Ground Zero 10 to 15 or 13 or even. hopefully two years after retirement. when they've hit rock bottom hopefully. they know the process and they'll step. right into it easier. man that's amazing. there's something I want to talk to you. about and it's it's. getting better and it's it's for the. operators that are getting better and in. in. and I feel like that there is more to.

this than trauma too I think if there's. a big sense of. self-worth that is lost. sense of purpose that is lost and I. think that. a lot of the guys that are coming up. from the coming out of these you know. tip of the spirit units. it's really hard to reinvent yourself. would you agree with that 100 percent. and yeah. I know I struggled with that a lot I.

know a lot of guys struggled that it's. that I mean you're coming it's like. being a pro a pro athlete and then it's. gone now what the hell do you do and so. how did. setting up the all secure Foundation. help you with all of that. the giving back. the helping the teaching because we. don't help I use the word help. I didn't want help. these operators don't want help.

so we use the word teaching come learn a. new skill or come get retrained on your. old skill that you've had before you've. lost those talents you replaced them. with other talents and violent ones so. we don't like to say help anymore but. come get training. and it was the question was I'm sorry. maybe I worded them wrong I'm not asking. what all secure Foundation does for. these guys I'm asking and it could be. anything it could you could replace the. all secure foundation with. something else that maybe you would have.

that you did but it seems like that's. the most significant thing that you've. done since you've left and it's very. significant and so what I'm asking is. finding that new sense of purpose and. knowing how important the mission. actually is have you seen more. Improvement just in that alone just in. the new sense of purpose the new your. new life's purpose I mean how has that. helped you. my new tribe your new tribe my new. family my new thing a reason to live.

hope not just sitting there wondering. what I've been but how will I be better. now instead of sitting in my misery. thinking of all the things I did you. know that last High School touchdown. pass I threw did I peek in high school. am I going to live that the rest of my. life. it's like I can't you know I did. something pretty good I thought it was. great it was amazing I left it you know. a little bit better sometimes whatever. none of that matters. unless I I sit and wallow in it for the. rest of my life and I sit and live in. that dream you know and I always.

describe it as you're driving a car down. the highway you're going 200 miles an. hour. do you want to look in the rearview. mirror which is only that big. and it's all your past and live right. there because you're gonna crash that. car. are you gonna look to the windshield. which is 10 times or 100 times that size. and it's heading in the direction you. want and you're in the now going in the. future through the windshield. if you're looking ahead you probably. won't crash. that means you're on it you're aware of. what you're doing and you know where. you're going. a lot of guys focus on that rear view. mirror and they're lit I did this I did.

that and I'll never do that again. if you keep saying that you won't. if you devise a plan and use all the. tools the military gave you you know you. never planned in the military right you. don't know how to plan something. you know have contingency plans you know. your primary alternate contingency. emergency plans you always had four or. five different plans and then when those. failed you fell back on the Sops you. practice every day use that. use that for everything. use that for your new future do a little. assessment on what do I want to do what.

makes me happy what needs done what. whole needs filled. and everyone's calls us I want to help I. want to help you. how can I help. I used to say well uh on thinking you. know and now I'm like I don't know how. can you help what do you do. what do you want to do that you can do. well. and then they pause it uh okay think. about what you want to do. what you can do and if you can do it. well and hit us back. find out what you want to do.

find your passion guys are like I don't. know what to do I don't know do you know. Jen's like what's your what do you do. what's your passion you know well I play. music. okay why don't you play music well the. guys will laugh at me she goes who give. his you playing for them. you're still living in the past worried. about what your guys are going to do and. judge you. take that passion and ignite it turning. into a job turn into a career turning. something you love. but don't lay there and die you know the. greatest failure is a fair to try so. once you stop trying that's exactly.

where you'll stay forever that's what I. would say too you know I mean. a lot of these guys aren't they're not. going to know what their passion is. because their passion is work it's going. to war it's training it's been with the. guys it's it's it's the lifestyle. there's no time for any other passion. and so or Hobbies I mean I still. don't have anything to be honest with. you I was terrified you guys moved my. hobbies around I had to make one up. that's funny because when I met my wife.

she I told her the my most feared. question was what are your hobbies. because I don't have any right uh yeah I. like to get shit-faced again bar fights. those are my hobbies I do dishes and get. shit-faced the same old thing you know. but cleaning. but um it takes a minute you know I mean. I'm just I'm I'm gonna talk about myself. for a minute but I mean. if you would have asked me when I was in. the SEAL Teams if I'd be sitting here. interviewing people uh for the rest of. my life I'd have told you you were out.

of your mind yeah like I don't. even like talking to people right but um. but that's what it that's what it. developed into you know and and it just. took trying all these different things I. didn't realize I didn't realize how much. I enjoyed creativity I mean I built this. entire set I've learned all the camera. stuff I picked the angles I'd do the. edit I did the editing at the beginning. I did the trailers I did all of that and. it just grew into this it grew into a.

new passion and that's. as you know that's what I do today. number two passion yeah and um. it just takes a minute but you have to I. guess what I'm saying is you have to get. out and you have to try new things. otherwise you're never going to replace. the void that you're feeling right now. as you leave the unit or you leave the. team or you leave the group or whatever. whatever your law enforcement agency. Federal agency it doesn't matter what. you've immersed your life into.

when you leave that you have to try new. things otherwise you'll never fill the. void all right and don't try to fill it. with the exact thing or something as big. right don't start there because you feel. like I'll never do something that big I. never thought I'd do anything that big. again. when it's explained to me you're. probably saving more lives now than you. ever would have done you're probably. helping more soldiers and warriors than. you ever helped before and I look at. that thinking. all right that's better than I'm not. doing my job anymore I'm not you know. kicking down doors or or Leading Men.

kicking down doors and punching. paperwork which I hate you know it's. just. I didn't want to live in the past. anymore and that's our struggle is to. pull people out of the past pull those. guys out of that drinking cycle that. that team room cycle that that's all. they know that's all they want to hold. on to I mean not probably I don't think. it's probably you've probably saved more. I think you have definitely I mean your. wife Jen just came on and said it's over. I think she said it's over five thousand. cup 5 000 people that you guys have.

put through the all-scure foundation one. in in one way or another yeah and so. there's five thousand something people. plus their families their kids their. friends you know and and the impact just. spider webs out to where. you can't even you can't even trace it. and why I do this now I did it then. because of Jen right good looking girl. starting everything we're gonna get. married. I started rolling into and then you get.

the letters. you get the thank yous we have a letter. on our refrigerator that was sent to US. Written in crayon. a little flower on it. I said thank you for saving my mommy and. daddy. that's why I do it. I do it because a wife stood up in a. retreat and we make people write letters. to each other and say one word.

pick one word and don't use Brave and. courageous right one other word. that describes your spouse. and tell them what you want to tell them. the spouse stands up maybe our Last. Retreat that we held and says thank you. for these letters been married 30 years. and I never knew my husband felt any of. this I'm going to frame it I'm going to. show my children send them copies. because none of us ever knew he felt. this way about us.

we did that with one letter and to me. that's changing an entire generation. of people and that's why I do it now. it's a damn good reason man. I think there's one key component that. we haven't spoken about yet. you found God. about a year and a half ago yeah let's. talk about that experience. I grew up Lutheran right I was sent to.

school one through eight some church. every Sunday every Wednesday studied the. Bible you know. [Music]. um. finish high school and joined the. military and all that happened and I I. didn't ever give up God. I gave up everything I was supposed to. do well knowing god. and probably. well I kept that until about a year and. a half ago thinking I'm going to hell.

anyway right that's I've killed people. and and I told Jen that I was like you. know what I've killed people I don't. Thou shalt not kill you know I've done. that that's that's a commandment and she. brought it to my attention. reading the Bible and studying the Bible. it says thou shall not murder. and I never knew that difference. that literally gave me hope. that I wasn't damned that you know God.

hadn't rejected me and I know he never. you know blah blah and asked for. forgiveness and you're good. it's hard to tell yourself that. I started feeling better you know I. started reading more I started listening. to podcasts you know describing the. Bible and I started texting you you know. this you know that's like yes I know. you've done yes I read that and I know. and it just kept bringing me up and up. and up. and if that's all that does. then that was amazing in itself and just.

feeling that connection again with God. and praying to God and feeling the. differences that it makes and seeing the. things that come from it. and just having those feelings. was a big change back for me. um going back to who I was calming me. down letting me find a space to. to talk to somebody. you know just vent and know they're. hearing me. and then to feel that passion later. and that love come over you and it's.

just some things I've seen. that have shaken me to the core like. okay these messages are out there right. they're not just happening what kind of. things. God just the numbers different numbers I. see all the time 33 44 I never would. have noticed you know ever and then I. look up what are those main religiously. and everything that's crazy you know if. it's crazy okay it's crazy but it's. happening and I see it. and it's not just happening to me and. then things. um sitting in a hot tub one night with. Janet looking up through our backyard.

into the dark and we have these little. you know the candles you stick on the. ground the tiki torches or whatever. and one was just. shaking back and forth and Jen's like. what's what's going on up there but I. mean a little upper upper deck and there. was no wind blowing it wasn't raining. but still. and this tiki torch is shaking back and. forth. and I look up at it and I was like oh. God that's weird what's going on you. know and we had been talking about. um. something deep in the hot tub I don't. remember what the topic was. and this was to me was a sign I looked.

up and I looked at it and I was like oh. come on you know and then I looked. around and like there's no wind blowing. what would it be making that shake. and I just screamed stop and it. literally stopped dead in his tracks and. I looked around and go no freaking way. I go okay I'm inside now you know and it. was. one of those things that made you. nervous at first scary at first and then. you realize. at the times like we were talking about. something that broke us from that. conversation and stopped it. I don't think we ever re-entered it and.

it just brought us to another connection. of what was that that was a message. wasn't it. to looking at things. like my both my parents are deceased now. and my father you know the Cardinal. connection red red birds and I'd never. seen a cardinal in our yard even though. we're in St Louis where the Cardinals. are apparently. and now they flood through our yard. all the time flying up when I just. talked to him oh hey Dad what's up you. know it just makes me feel better. to where my dad was into owls owl Rings. he always wanted an hour in his entire.

life they couldn't afford it and shortly. before he died my Mom finally bought him. one you know they had the money. and I have that ring at home and now. we've had Al Landing in our backyard. every night. thank goodness he's eating our moles but. he lands in the backyard every night and. just kind of looks around and we talk to. him you know to now there's two owls. that come up and sit every night on a. branch and hop down our yard and hop. around look at us we put our dogs inside. so they don't chase them. and then they just hop around our yard. and fly back having a tree and stare at.

us and start squawking and screaming and. I'm like this is crazy. this is crazy and if you ignore these. messages. you might as well ignore every message. right from anybody. and I just started getting that. overwhelming feeling of people. well Society nowadays seems like they're. turning away. and nothing Good's coming from it. right nothing good is coming from it. and when you have a book that's been. written it's the oldest book that this. many people still follow and believe how.

can you deny that. right. non-believers. why bother. why waste your time. it's not my job right God did that. there's preachers to do that and if you. if you're not believing you want to. believe by all means believe start do. some research whatever it takes. but don't waste my time on non-believers. I'm not that converter guy right I'm not. the guy that goes out and preaches and. you know every time you come up to me. I'm not going to talk about God to you.

there's people that make me nervous like. that and overly religious. I don't want to push people away if. people are curious I'll talk to him. about God what I know and how it makes. me feel and why. but I no longer have that feeling like. I'm going to hell I feel like I've been. forgiven I know that I've been forgiven. I've come clean on things and I feel. good about it and that's that's a better. future for me a better outlook for the. future for me and I appreciate it and I.

talked to God more now. and it's more about things of family. related and hope lemon you're still. making the right decisions and and um. and I literally asking if he ever needs. any help let me know you know so. kind of having that relationship. probably a lot of people freaking out. right now too hearing me say that well. maybe but people that know me I think. you know I mean.

what do they say attraction's always. better than promotion. and uh I think just by talking about. your relationship with with God. that's enough to make somebody come to. him maybe not everybody won't be. everybody but. you get a lot of people to look up to. you man a ton of people whether you like. to hear that or not. veterans guys at the unit guys wanting.

to go to the unit I mean people are. going to hear your story and they're. going to want. to join the Army and some of them will. wind up at the unit because you just sat. in that chair. you know and the same thing is going to. be with people coming to God. yeah a lot of people are gonna dismiss. it they won't want to hear it but. there'll be a handful that that's all. they needed they just needed to hear Tom. satterly talk about it and I do think. there is a there's one thing I mean who.

do you think intervened that night in. the parking garage or that day in the. parking garage yeah God. he does everything so there are no. coincidences right yeah. they didn't want me there he knew there. was more for me and I know that now. I know that now but. my days weren't over my I hadn't done my. best yet. and he kept me around long enough to see. that. do you feel like you're doing your best. now.

I'm trying. I'm always trying to do my best. is it my best. no I'll always keep trying to do better. well Tom. it's been a hell of an interview man. it's been a long one and um. I just want to say I know that. I know it took you 20 years to even talk. about what happened to Mogadishu. to come out publicly and talk about that.

and and. I know you're tired of talking about it. and. I just want to say man and I mean this. from the bottom of my heart it was. a real honor to be able to get you here. to talk about that to document it and. then. everything that came afterwards and and. um. I just wish you and your wife Jan the. best of luck and uh you guys are doing. amazing things and. thank you for your time thank you for. being here and uh it's an honor to get.

to know you thank you I really. appreciate you having us on and giving. us the opportunity to share with more. and reach more people this is the. opportunity we've been looking for to. reach as many people in need as we can. so thank you. honor is online brother. [Music]. foreign. [Music].

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