Simone Ledeen - Inside the Middle East: Israel, Syria, Iran & What You’re Not Being Told | SRS #220

[Music]. Simone Ledine, welcome to the show. >> Thank you. Great to be here. >> It's good to have you here. I've been. wanting to have you on for quite a. while, but uh I think uh right now is. the perfect time. So, thank you for. coming. >> Thanks for having me. >> Hey, it's my pleasure. It's my pleasure. But, um yeah, lots of things going on in. the news right now. I saw a tweet. talking about Intel analysts and stuff. that I'll read off here in a minute that.

really caught our attention and um so I. really I want to dive into that um cuz. just a lot to talk about and that that. tweet was it it it caught me. So I'm. going to start you off with an. introduction here real quick. Simone. Ledine, former deputy assistant. secretary of defense for the Middle. East, national security, counterterrorism, and intelligence. expert with a career spanning decades. across the Pentagon, Treasury, and.

global battlefields. Iraq and. Afghanistan war vet. You led efforts to. follow the money fueling insurgencies. a. former senior civilian leader in the. Pentagon during pivotal moments like the. Abraham Accords in operations targeting. Baghdaddy and Solommani, a pioneer in. counter threat finance, coordinating the. Swift program at the Treasury and. exposing terrorist financial networks, testified before Congress on the chaotic. Afghanistan withdrawal, and managing.

director at Maven Defense Solutions, a. senior fellow at UT's Strauss house. center and an adviser shaping the future. of defense technology. Am I missing anything? >> That's good. >> It's quite the resume there. That's. quite the resume. >> Thank you. >> But um so a couple of things real quick. here. >> Everybody gets a gift. >> Awesome. Thank you. >> Vigilance League gummy bears.

>> legal in all 50 states. You still pass. your drug test. So, but um yeah, so. getting into. this tweet that caught my attention. from you at a fundamental level, a lot. of our analytical corpse need to be. completely destroyed and rebuilt. A lot. of these people are coming from, you. know, which schools. So, they're totally. indoctrinated and they don't know what. they're what they're talking about.

because they're not properly educated. Anyways, that really caught my attention and um. so I wanted to I I know we're going to. dive into this more in a little bit, but. I just What was. what was the premise of that? Well, I said that in the aftermath of. the leaked uh intelligence assessment. right after our strike against Fordau.

And uh the it seemed like there was this. uh intelligence product, this assessment. that was leaked uh that said and it was. like within 24 hours or within 12 hours. of the strike occurring um that there. was no significant damage. And um now I. understood later after that tweet that. they did the analysts did characterize.

it as low that they had low confidence. in their assessment and that was not. included in the original I think it was. CNN that originally published that. They left that out. But be that as it. may, um, you know, if you're looking at a. satellite image of a bunker buster, you. just see the entry point for the bunker. buster. You don't see down down where it. actually exploded, and you you don't see. what the damage is. Um, so there's no.

possible way of knowing within that time. period what the damage was or was not. Um, so that was kind of the context of. of the of my tweet, but I also w I also. wanted to make the point more broadly. because it's it's a problem that I've. seen for a few years now. Um, and I'm. and I don't, you know, I don't look at. I'm just a normal person now. I don't. look at uh at our intelligence. assessments anymore on a regular basis.

but uh I do know these schools these. universities are are. institutions of higher learning where. you know people go it's very hard to get. in still they get a brand right you're. like stamped with a a brand of one of. these schools and you're that means. you're supposed to know something that. that means that people are supposed to. listen to you and that's been, you know, one of the pillars of our, you know, of our society really has been.

um we've have our different. institutions, right, that we have all. bowed down to and have all said, um, yes, we, you know, these are the people. who are who are our leaders. the these. people become our presidents and our. senators and our titans of business, but. we've also seen in the past few years. that they're they're completely. indoctrinated by I always say Marxists. and um they're they come out saying.

these like political platitudes without. actually understanding anything that's. behind what they're saying. um because. they're not learning how to think. critically. This is really the point. Universities are meant to build critical. thinkers, people who can look at a topic. from many different points of view and. then come to a conclusion instead of. only being taught one way because all.

the other ways are offensive or all the. other ways are, you know, put a label on. it. um the professors that used to teach. a lot of those different points of view. have been driven out of these. universities and um what what are you. left with? You're left with this one. perspective. That's what these students. are taught and then they are released. out into the wild. Some of them become. intelligence analysts and what we're. left with is intelligence analysis from.

people who have not been taught how to. think critically. Um now I'm not I don't. want to cast dispersions on like our. entire intelligence community. uh all analysts in the community because. I I have some good friends who are. absolutely brilliant and please you know. don't ever leave but but there are a lot. of a lot of others unfortunately and. it's a struggle and the the more you. have decision makers this is also how. the problem plays out you have all these.

decision makers ers who come from. different backgrounds who don't. understand these nuances that you know. nerds like me and the and these intel uh. analysts know. So they look at a piece. of analysis and they're like oh well the. intelligence community says this. They. don't understand the nuance of we assess. with low confidence. That doesn't matter. to them because they don't know how to. how to read that and everyone knows. that. Um, so.

everyone who's writing for them knows. that. So it it's um that that really was. the motivation behind my writing that. Um, and I there's a lot more there's a. lot more to it and I'm actually grateful. to have this conversation because a lot. of people know this is true. I'm not the. only one. >> I know it's true. >> Exactly. >> I mean, you know, I I don't think it's. just the universe. I think it's it's I.

don't think it's just Ivy League. universities are doing this. I mean, I. think this is this is a broader problem. is is I mean, everybody wants to live in. their own echo chamber and they only. want the perspective that. fills whatever their their wants and and. maybe not needs, but you know what I'm. saying? And it's. >> it's. man, it's become just like such a. problem, man. I mean, I just I just had. Gavin Newsome on my show last week and I.

got. blasted for it. And I knew I would get. blasted for it, but I mean, I'm just so. tired of being. It's just everywhere. I mean, there's. you're either right or you're left. You're either MAGA or you're not. You're. I mean, the algorithms of the social. media platforms, X, Instagram, Facebook, all all of them. I mean it it it you. only get one perspective cuz the. algorithms are so good at you know.

segregating those two camps and and and. so you know I I wanted to. wanted to talk to the other side and. just ask some questions and and and. people are outraged about it. It's crazy. to me. It's like. [Music]. >> I don't know how to get through this. I. mean nobody's doing it. Nobody's talking. to the other side on either side. It and. and it it I mean how are we supposed to. have any. civil discussions? You know what I mean.

when it's that tribal? >> We don't I mean we don't have and then. we don't have civil discussions right. now. I mean, as you see the way you're. being attacked then, you know, with I. mean, with respect to to Gavin Newsome, I mean, he just my my perspective is he. just says whatever. >> Um, and uh he's, you know, trying to. build a larger platform for himself. outside of California. It's probably why. people are mad at you cuz they would.

might feel like you're giving him that. opportunity. But also, why are people. not critical thinkers anymore? Can you. not hear like can you not hear him. saying what he's saying and understand. what's behind that? >> Um that's that's pretty shocking to be. honest with you. I I agree that it's. there should be a plurality of voices. out there and um I mean just for going. back to intelligence analysts for a.

minute their entire job is to ingest. lots of different types of data. perspectives and come to a conclusion. based on all of the data and and all of. you know these different reflections and. um it's it's quite uh it's it's quite. alarming. I mean, I, you know, I served. in the first Trump administration and I. still don't understand. um what a lot of people believe MAGA to.

be. Um I I like ask three people what. they think MAGA is and you'll get five. opinions. Um but the person who started. MAGA was Donald Trump. And so does he. get to kind of say what MAGA is and not? I'm not like deep into the US politics. um for a good reason, which is I don't. want to be attacked like you've been. attacked, but but I mean it's it's like.

it's weird. I don't get it. I um yeah, it's it's a mystery to me, too. I. campaigned for for him and everything, but I don't know. I uh I'm certainly. grateful that uh that he won and Camela. Harris lost. I mean, how how do you how. do you fix this within the intelligence. agencies? I mean, is this a total gut. job? >> Well, that was. >> And then where would the new ones come. from? >> This is the problem. I mean, we we can't.

what are we. what are we going to do? Um, we do need. a new generation of critical thinkers. And I'm grateful there are different. institutions out there now that are that. offer alternatives to some of these woke. schools. But also what's great is the. government is now going after some of. these schools and saying if you're only. going to to teach, and this isn't only. Ivy Leagues, but the problem is.

especially bad in the Ivy Leagues, is if. you're going to discriminate uh based. on, you know, XYZ categories, like. that's against the law. You will not get. federal funding um for that. And that. has that is going to cause change. that. will they must change because the amount. of government funding to some of these. schools is like they can't survive. without it. So that's really motivating. Um that's how you start to change this. But also I mean people that are reading.

intelligence you can grade what you're. seeing um and say like this is not. useful because XYZ. But again, a lot of. people who um who ingest that who are. the what they call the customers don't. actually always understand that they're. seeing something that's filtered through. this like woke mind virus. Um and so. yeah, so it's it's a problem, but that's. why also you're have these senior. analysts, you have the leaders um who.

are seasoned, but they're also captured in many cases. is they're also captured and um and it's. hard to to fight against a system that. only wants you to put out certain things. and um you will get in trouble if you. say other things and I've seen people. fired for making truthful publishing. truthful assessments that were very. unpopular. Could you give me could you.

just give a a specific example of of. that just so I I I want the audience to. understand with examples of how how this. could affect intelligence. >> Sure. Back in the day. um you were not allowed to say that. al-Qaeda leadership was living in Iran. You could not say it. >> Why? >> Um because. we might have had to do something about. that. Um, we were on in the global war.

on terror at the time and we were going. after al-Qaeda everywhere it was. We. didn't want to, I believe our leadership. did not want to acknowledge that. al-Qaeda leadership was in Iran because. then perhaps we would have had to do. something about it. So, um, yeah, I saw. reporting on that that was like highest. level of classification. So, only very. few people could actually ever see it. And so also because it couldn't be. published in like broader assessments.

that were going out to more people um at. lower classification levels and then you. know fast fast forward couple of years. like I got out of government went and. did other things came back in and it was. it was like just a thing that everyone. acknowledged. Oh yeah, al-Qaeda's in. Iran. Al-Qaeda al-Qaeda al-Qaeda senior. leadership's living in Iran. They've. been there for a long time. It blew my. mind. I'm like, "Oh, we're we're just.

saying that now." Like, that's crazy to. me. There's someone I know got fired for. writing that. Wow. Wow. So, so basically. what you're saying is when hard. intelligence facts are gathered, if it. doesn't fit whatever narrative that is. in play at the time, then that will that. will never get reported. to who it wants to go to. >> I wouldn't say that in like so broadly, but yes, there are there are definitely.

times when things are purposely not. promulgated out there. Maybe it's like. pointtooint, you know, only a few people. know about it because it's so dangerous. um for that information to get shared. more broadly. That's one of the problems. that we have. People are working off of. sometimes, you know, misinformation or. not all the information even though we. have it. It's just very very tightly. held for for a variety of reasons. You.

know, sometimes to be fair, it's not. because it's like politically. damaging potentially or puts the United. States in a uncomfortable position, but. because the source, you know, we want to. protect the source or how we collected. the information in the first place. So, it's it's not always that way. I I want. to be fair, but. >> it's not it's not always um just to. protect sources and methods either.

>> Well, I mean, talking about al-Qaeda. camping out in Iran, I mean, Iran just. got bombed. Lot a lot of controversy. over Israel right now and what's going. on over there. So, I I wanted to unpack. a couple of things that are going on and. and and and so let's start with I mean, I woke up this morning, pulled up X, first thing I saw, Israel bomb Syria. So, Israel's bombing Syria. Israel's.

bombing Iran. Israel is. killing lots of people in Gaza. I mean, what what is going on over there? Let's. start with Syria, the latest. >> Okay. Um I I would just contextualize. all the things that you've that you've. like that list that you just ran down. Contextualize that with October 7th, which is really was the gen like this is.

where all this started and where Israel. was like, "Right, we're done. um we're. we're done with kind of the way we were. doing things before. Kicking the can. down the road kind of like trying to. deal with situations rather than just. completely, you know, uh turn, you know, turn Gaza into a. parking lot. But um uh it it changed. their perspective. And by the way, if.

you look at internal polling, Israeli. internal polling, they're they're very. pro what's going on now because. they they suffered tremendously. I mean, it was horrific. October 7th was. terrible. So, I just want to wanted to. provide a little bit of context for. this. >> Mhm. >> Um, so Syria Syria, this is not a short answer, Sean. Um. Syria has been.

uh there's so many players. Syria is not. just about Syria. Um over the past since. the quote unquote Arab Spring, which. was, as we know, not a spring at all. Um. there have been a lot of different. forces in Syria fighting each other, um. plotting external attacks. Uh some of. them. Iran had a had a very serious foothold. in Syria through Hezbollah. Um and they.

had like cut a deal with Assad who was. threatened. I mean Assad wouldn't have. survived the Arab Spring if it hadn't. been for Russia and Iran. Um and so he. became beholden to them. Where is he. today? Moscow. Um so he became beholden. to them. He became like their their um. puppet. Mhm. >> Um so. also if you consider the geography like.

where um Israel and Syria meet, there's. only a small area um the Golan Heights. where they share a border. Um but. Israel's been concerned about this for. many years. First there was Hezbollah. kind of massing there getting ready to. do something. Who knows? there's ISIS, there's all this uh all these different. forces in play that ultimately threaten. the state of Israel. And again, after.

October 7th, this became like we're. going to have to do something. eventually. Um I. I don't think that Israel ever thought. they would have the opportunity to. address these Iranian proxies one by. one. Mhm. >> Um I think they always their plan was. always how are we going to fight. everyone at the same time. Um so it's. worked out well for them and they. they've been incredibly.

masterful at how they've kind of. addressed each one of these Iranian. proxies. But, you know, now there's a. new there's a new manager in town. Um, formerly a guest of ours at Camp Bua. Um, the new leader of Syria, Galani. He, um, has turned a new leaf as he is. portraying to the world. He's no longer. wearing um, his jihadi garb. He wears a. suit. He's been welcomed into the.

international community. Um and uh our. own government really, you know, we want. a new Abraham Accords with Syria joining. the Abraham Accords. We've lifted a lot. of sanctions. We want to do business. there. Um and I hope personally I hope. for that. I hope that that happens. However, you got Galani and Damascus and. then you have kind of his lieutenants or.

loosely aligned groups that are still. sort of running things outside of. Damascus and he needs to get better. control over that. Now, there's a debate. about. is was he responsible for what's. happened over the past few days, which. is um horrific. um uh horrific attacks against the Drews. community. Um and. >> the what community? >> Drews. >> What is that? >> They're minority. Um they're minority. group. And they're they're not just in.

Syria, they're in Israel as well. Um, they're actually very active in the. Israeli like security services. They. serve in the IDF. Um, and they play an. important role in in Israel and Israeli. national security. So, they were. attacked in a pretty horrific way. There's videos all over social media. about like, you know, murders of hundreds of people.

that were filmed, the humiliations that. were forced on the Drews um before they. were murdered, including some of their. um you know, some of their religious. leaders. It's like bad. It's not it's. it's very bad. And. >> so these are these are basically the. Drews is basically Muslim Israelis. >> No, they're not. Correct. They're. they're Drews, so they're they live in. Israel, they live in Syria, they're. they're spread out. Like, if you. consider, you know, Kurds who kind of.

live in a bunch of different countries, um they're the kind of their own tribal. network. That's the Drews. They have. their own tribal network. They're. they're spread across Syria, Israel, um. and um and maybe more than that. I. cannot say I'm like a deep deep Syria. expert, but what I do know is uh that. they have they were attacked pretty. badly and there were attacks.

against Christians prior to that. um you. know in inside of churches, murders, rapes um and this was the second attack. against the Drews under this kind of new. Galani government and um I don't. actually I don't want to it is a Galani. government that that's uh um they've. been acknowledged into you know by by. our leadership. So anyway, all that to.

say, um, Israel acted in defense of the. Drews. >> Okay. >> Um, and that's that was what they did. this morning. They apparently they'd. been messaging for a while like, "Cut. the out. This is really bad. We. don't like to see this." But it didn't. stop. And uh they had a problem too. which was I read a report that that said. over a thousand Drews from Israel like. knocked down the fence between Israel.

and Syria and just like went into Syria. to fight with their Drews brothers. And. Israel was like whoa we don't want our. citizens to get killed in Syria. Uh they. didn't want they don't want the any. bigger problems. Do you know what I. mean? Everyone wants us to calm down, quiet down. We're going in a good. direction. Please stop killing each. other. Um, and that was the point of. this attack uh the Israeli attack today.

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Protect more than just your life. Protect your future. Go right now to. uscca.com/srs. >> What would you think if US got involved. in that? Do you think it's our place? >> No, definitely not. Do you think it was. our place with the Iran stuff? >> I think specifically targeting for DAO, nobody else could have done it but us. And President Trump had said for so many.

years, Iran will not get a nuclear. weapon that he had his own credibility. riding on that and he had to. Um, but. yes, I do also think it was the right. thing to do. I never thought that this. would turn into American boots on the. ground. It won't. It can't. We're not. doing that. >> You don't think so? No. >> Well, that's good to hear cuz that's. that was my worry is, you know, and. look, I don't I'm not an Israel expert. I'm not an Iran. I'm not a Middle East. expert. But, you know, I mean,

Trump ran his campaign, we're not going. to get into any more forever wars. And. that seems to be kicking the hornets. nest in my book. And you know, and the. thing is, I'm not saying Israel was. right or wrong in having in doing what. they did, you know, with Iran. >> But. you had just mentioned it. I know we're. going to dive in a lot more. I mean, Iran has used terrorist organizations as. proxies.

from what I know throughout the entire. 20 whatever year war. >> Yep. >> Right. >> Yes. >> And we never did a damn thing about it. Nothing. My friends were getting. killed out there by this Nobody. gave a you know? Now Israel gets. involved and all of a sudden it's like. at the snap of a finger, it, we're. bombing them. And that to me is like a. slap in the face. That's like So when. it's when it's Americans that are. getting killed, we don't do But.

when Israel's involved, then we're going. to step in and do something. I don't. understand that at all. and I did. I'm. not, you know, I'm not getting into the. conspiracy stuff about. >> all the that you read online, but. that's just that's just that's just how. I feel. And I and that's how a a very. large percentage of the veteran. population feels is. >> what's going on? Like why weren't you. there for us? I mean, I could not agree more in the.

sense that. >> and that goes through Trump's last. administration and Obama administration. and the Bush administration. That's all. of them. >> Yeah. >> And the Biden administration. >> I mean, we. I was tracking like we saw Iranian money. moving through like in early days of. Iraq. We were just watching it and and. uh there were a few things that happened. where.

um it's just a deep sigh because of all. of the the the terrible loss and missed. opportunities. Um but you know I was I. was there during the Bush administration. and um yeah I mean there was a policy. decision even though we knew what was. happening, what they were building, who. they were dealing with, we let them and. then they started killing us and. essentially we let them. um with very. few exceptions. And um I agree with you.

that is that is messed up. And um I mean. we should all be incredibly angry about. that. Uh I will also say that. um I mean I'm not I'm not making excuses. for anybody. Like I I demand. accountability like everybody else. You. know, we have had none and we deserve. it. Um, and our dead friends deserve it. and their families. Um, but I will say.

this is like. this is not the same thing. Like you. want this this uh regime that creates. these terror proxies. that we know have killed Americans like. aggressively gone after us. You want. them to have a nuke? you want them to. give that, you know, nuclear weapon. technology to the freaking Houthies and. whoever else. I don't. Um, and so just.

because one thing was wrong doesn't mean. this is right. >> or this isn't right. Um, I I just like. having the having Iran have a nuclear. weapon. like their ballistic missile. technology. It's worth saying this to. you, their ballistic missile technology. is so uh was so. sophisticated. They were building uh. missiles that could go farther and. farther and farther, not just to hit. Israel. What what what were they going.

to do with those ballistic missiles that. could travel so so far? They were. targeting us or eventually. So, um, it. was in our national interest to make. sure that they never got a nuclear. weapon. And I think if Israel had had. the technology to do it themselves, I think we would have let them and we. wouldn't have gotten involved. But. unfortunately, we are the only ones that. have that techn. We have the B2. We have. these bunker bunker busters. Maybe we'll. start selling those to Israel. Great.

Um, but it's in our interest, too. Like, they are coming for us, too. So, >> I'm not I mean I know they're covered. for us. You know, I'm not I'm not saying. that at all, but you know, there there. was a couple other things that that came. out. I mean, I know you have a lot of. friends and acquaintances still in. intelligence and probably a lot more. than I do. I still have a couple. But, you know, I talked to one person, they. said, "Not one of our 18 intelligence. agencies reported that. Iran had nuclear capabilities." In fact,

you know, March 2025, Tulsi Gabbard, this is her. The IC. continues to assess that Iran is not. building a nuclear weapon in Supreme. Leader. Kamani, I sorry, I'm butchering his. name, has not authorized the nuclear. weapons program that he is that he. suspended in 2003. And then in June of. 25, quoted, "America has intelligence that. Iran is at the point that it can produce. a nuclear weapon within weeks to months.

If they decide to finalize the assembly, President Trump has been clear that. can't happen." And I agree. And so, I. mean, how does that how did this all. change just within a couple of months? They had no capability. Now, all I mean, after years and years of Intel. >> Yeah. all of a sudden in a couple. months, oh they've got nuclear. capabilities. We need to take care of. this. That didn't come from us. That. came from Assad.

>> Why wouldn't we trust our 18. intelligence agencies more than we trust. a foreign governments? >> Well, that foreign government had. completely penetrated Iran, and we. hadn't. I mean, we we see their. operations potentially ongoing even now. um so targeted, so uh specific. They we. weren't where they were and they saw. things that we didn't. And um I love a. good conspiracy as much as the next.

person. >> Mhm. >> But like they have to get this right. I. mean we. we did not have we did not have in my. opinion um based on what I saw. previously we did not have that level of. penetration that they did and uh and. that's that was a game changer. >> Okay. Well that's good to know. It's. just things that I don't understand cuz. I don't have a full picture and and you.

know with with a lot of the stuff that. you could read on the internet. I mean, get get a real. >> No, but it's like it's tough, Sean, because people hear that and they're. like, "Oh, the Israelis told us, so we. just believe them and then we're going. to go take out their biggest enemy." You. know, I get that. And it like it sucks. Um, it also happens to be true. So, I. don't know. Uh, I don't know what to. tell you. I mean, it it is um. I I wish that we had better collection. inside of Iran. That we had had better.

collection. Um now. uh things are changing but not in terms. of us but what's going to happen with. the regime I don't know anymore because. they're they're totally defenseless. right now. >> Mhm. I mean do you think just going back. on our earlier conversation when we were. talking about analysts and and. intelligence folks I mean not knowing. what they're doing because of where they. came from from the Ivy League schools. I. mean, do you think that played into why.

we didn't have that type of. intelligence? >> I think that's part of it. Yeah, I think. that's part of it. I think just our. general risk aversion is overwhelming. And you, you know, you were in the CIA, you saw like institutionally. they're risk averse. Hopefully now. things are changing there. Um, but I. don't know. And I know I was extremely. frustrated by how little. how little was going on. I'm like, we.

four years ago, you know, we could see. the trajectory of this whole thing with. Iran, right, with them building the. nukes. Whether you want to parse that. they're this close or that close. the. intelligence community started playing. these games where they're like well they. can make a if they decided to make a. nuclear weapon they could do it within. you know a very short period of time but. it's like with medium I think at the. time it was like medium um um what do. you call it sorry that um they they had.

medium confidence of that assessment I'm. like so you don't know anything. basically like I'm supposed to make. decisions off of this or I'm supposed to. advise my boss's boss about like based. on that. That's not that helpful. Um, and of course, having been an. intelligence analyst before, I know like. I I I get it and and uh I don't want to. like beat the dead horse too much. I. mean, sometimes you have what you have.

to work with, unfortunately. and and um. but I think at the end of the day the. the president in in his first term, President Trump made it clear no new. wars. Um he didn't want to go to war. with Iran. He wanted a deal. There were. things that we could have done back then. like beneath the level of armed. conflict. We have authorities that we. can use to do certain things that are, you know, in the gray zone. Sean, you.

know, you know about all that. We could. have done that. Um, and uh. I I didn't really see anyone who could. have done it do do it. >> Um, and. >> unfortunately it led to a scenario where. there was no other option. The only. option was this big kinetic public. thing. Could we have potentially avoided. that earlier with a little more. risktaking? I think so. And again, no.

accountability for any of that at all. >> Yeah. Is it is it. is it true that in Trump's first term he. took the inspectors of the nuclear. facilities out? >> I don't know. I don't know about that. >> In Iran. Okay. That's something I've been wanting to. dive into. But anyways, let's move on. So, I want to do we have a lot of stuff.

to discuss and um I really am excited to. get into the Iraq war with you, but I. thought it would be good to do somewhat. of a life story and then we can go down. rabbit holes along the way. >> Great. >> So, where did you grow up? >> Uh well, I um my parents are American, but they met and married in Italy. So, uh, I spent my ear I was born in the US, but I spent my early years in Rome. Um, and actually Italian is my first. language.

>> Is it really? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Nice. It's. >> um, beautiful, but not not that helpful. in in outside of like restaurants and, you know, going on on nice trips. But, um, but yeah, I uh, so we moved to DC. when I was when I was like four. Um my. father was a uh a university professor. at the time. Um and he started getting. death threats from the uh communist.

there was a the red brigades very active. in uh left-wing terrorists communist. terrorists very active in Italy and they. had killed a bunch of people there and. um he got he got a death threat and uh I. was very young and he was like we out. So, uh, so we we came to the US. He got. a job at, uh, at a think tank at. Georgetown University. And, um, and so I. I grew up in in DC in the DC area. Swamp.

creature. Um, >> swamp creature. >> I, um, yeah, I my mother worked my. parents ended up both working in the. Reagan administration. My father was. went to the state the state department. and eventually to uh the national. security council and my mother was. working at the Pentagon doing uh. technology transfer like trying to keep. the Soviets from getting our uh you know. our our best technology.

>> Interesting. Um, so yeah, that's that's. where I grew up. And then I ended up uh. my father unfortunately at the National. Security Council, ended up uh working in. the same office with Oliver North and. Bud McFarland. Um, and was uh swept up. in the Iran Contra affair. Um, I was 12. when all that happened and I had a. pretty uncomfortable. exchange with the principal of the. school that I was in. uh who asked me if.

my father was guilty and I went home. that day and told my mother and she was. like well you don't have to go back to. that school ever again and so kind of. mid year I switched to a new school very. bougie all girl school where like. everyone's dad was way more important. than mine and no one cared um so and I I. only learned later you know how how much. of a struggle that was for my parents to. be able to pay thatu tuition cuz it was.

like one of those borderline things. where they didn't qualify for um for uh. any kind of scholarship. Um but and. frankly I wasn't a good enough student. to get any kind of scholarship anything. but they uh yeah they had to they. sacrificed a lot to pay for my education. and I'm very grateful. But anyway, yeah, so I I went through high school uh there. and um and then yeah, off off to.

college. >> Where'd you go? >> I went to a school called Brandeise. University in Massachusetts. And um I I. did not I did not do particularly well. in school uh in high school, but when I. got to college, I realized that I knew. more than a lot of other people just. because my school was so good. and um. and it it all started to make sense like. why did I have to go there um and not. just public school. Um so yeah, I I.

remain very grateful for that. But yeah, I went to Brandeise University. uh majored in European cultural studies. just so that I could get credit for a. full year overseas. um pretty much. always wanted to travel, live overseas, had the wanderlust and um so I went to. Italy and uh did like in my mind I had. this eat, pray, love thing uh you know I.

went to Florence and thought it would be. this great adventure but I made a a. critical mistake which was I actually. did a program at the University of. Florence which was like hard as. it. So, I had to do it. It was in. Italian and you go to le the way they do. it there is like you go to lectures, you. read this whole pile of books. They give. you the reading list and like you have. one exam at the end of the year and it's. it's an oral exam in front of a panel of.

professors and it's like half an hour. and they can ask you anything and um. that sucked. I had no E, Pray, Love. situation. And I had like study study. study and um but I learned a lot and. Florence is was uh beautiful and I got. out of Brandeise um which already was. like crazy left crazy left. Um coming. from DC I wanted nothing to do with. politics. I just wanted to be like. normal kid normal experiences. Um, I mean, when I was young, I remember.

in DC, we had like Jean Kirkpatrick over. for dinner one night and she. um, my father was like delayed at work. So, it was like me and my mom with Jean. Kirkpatre, the ambassador to the United. Nations. I mean, if you ever look her up. on YouTube, she was like a serious. person, okay? Serious person. And um I. guess our oven broke. My mom was putting. some like frozen orurves or whatever in.

the oven to warm up and the oven was. broken. So she sent me next door like to. use the next door neighbor's oven. And I. got stopped by the Secret Service cuz. I'm running back and forth with food. They're like, "What are you doing with. the food?" And um that was my, you know, I had a weird childhood. It was not like. a lot of other kids. Um, so when I went. to college, I just wanted to be normal. and um, but instead it was just all this. craziness already. Um, and like we had I.

forget what year it was, maybe my. sophomore year, we had um, a big student. event which was Angela Davis um, in was. invited as a speaker. Angela Davis, former vice presidential candidate under. the Communist Party. Um, she was briefly. on the FBI's 10 most wanted list for. like busting her boyfriend out of um, court. I think some I think a judge was.

killed in the process. >> Wow. >> Um, so she was invited to speak at my. school and she was being paid out of. student funds and um, and I was like, absolutely not. Um, and that was also I. I ended up kind of speaking out about. that a little bit because I'm like this. is crazy and you're not even telling the. students who this person is like she's. bad news and um anyway it was it was. even back then it was a problem. Um, and.

I'm, you know, I'm 50 years old, so this. was a few years ago, but, um, yeah, so I. I just, uh, I went overseas for a year, just kind of did that thing and came. back. I I wrote an honors thesis, um, and got out of there. And I've I don't. think I've ever been back to Boston. since then. It was like way too cold for. me and just um, not not great memories. But um, but I got through it and I. finished, which was my goal. Um, and.

then, um, and then I came back to DC. Uh, got a. job briefly like for a tech company. Um, just kind of feeling my way around. Didn't really know what I wanted to do. with my life. Um, and uh, I I got this job working for a. guy who had invented something. that was acquired by a company called. Lucent Tech Technologies, which doesn't.

exist anymore, but he he made like over. a billion dollars off of it. And he. decided that he was going to stand start. up all these related tech companies that. would like be each other's customers. And um and I I worked for him. I mean, I. was like basically one level above. interm, but it was cool. And um anyway, from there I went to business school. Um. and I went I went to business school in. Italy. But that was um that was right.

when um 9/11 happened. It kind of. changed my life. >> Yeah, I saw that. How did it change your. life? Well, uh, one of my mother's like best. friends was on the plane that hit the. Pentagon. And, um, we at the time I was. I was like a few blocks away. I was in. Pentagon City. Um, and. so we, you know, you could feel the the. the apartment building shake when the.

plane hit. >> And we already knew, uh, we'd already heard about what had. happened in New York City. Um, and uh, I didn't know till later that. day that Barbara was on that plane. Barbara Olsen was her name. And um, she, it turned out that she had. switched her flight at the last minute. Um, she was supposed to, she was like a. political commentator. Um, she wrote her. last book was about Hillary Clinton, not.

a fan. Um, and she uh she was on her. way. I think she was supposed to go to. Bill Marshow. That's why she was on that. flight. It was going to Los Angeles. And. uh her husband's birthday was September. 11th. So she at the last minute she. changed her flight so that she could be. with her husband on his on the morning. of his birthday. >> And um when he got to bed that night, he. found that she had left him a note um as.

well. Um but yeah that that that changed. my life. It changed the life of our. entire family. My my two younger. brothers as well. Um so I I was already. about to leave. I was about to leave for. business school in Milan and uh. everything was grounded and I had time. to. you know think about everything. and go. to Barbara's memorial service and just. kind of be with her her uh widowerower. with Ted and just think about like do I.

even give a about any of this. anymore? Like I had all these plans to. go whatever, have more European. adventures or whatever and and I'm like. I don't care about any of that anymore. Um I I came from I was I've been so. lucky, you know, I I came from a great. family. I have a great education. Um, I. need to serve my country now. And uh, and I didn't know how, but I.

kind of the seed was planted. And uh, as. I thought about it, I realized like what. is school? You go to school to learn a. certain set of tools that you can use. however you want. So that's when I. started to get the idea like there's. going to be somebody tracking terrorist. money. So I'm going to go to a business. school. I'm going to learn about. international finance and then I'm going. to figure out how to help do that. Um, and that's what I that's what I ended up. doing. >> Wow. And you deployed to you deployed to.

Iraq. >> I did 2003. Yep. >> How was that? >> Early days. >> Um, well uh it was a show. Um, it was it was. >> You were there for the invasion? >> No. No. Um they they trucked us into. Kuwait in September and we were we were. in Kuwait or was it late August? I can't. remember. We were in Kuwait for like a. week and they had started up this like. bizarre weeklong training in a classroom.

um for civilians who had never done. anything like this before. And um it was kind of like. mop gear, it's important, but you're not. going to have any. Flack vest also. important. Yours doesn't have any. plates. Um so it was like cool. Uh but. at the time when we got there, um I. think it was sometime in September um.

that we that we got to Baghdad. Uh it. was still it was before right before uh. things started blowing up like right. before the UN uh the UN thing was like a. big turning point when the the head of. the UN mission there got blown up. Um so. when I first got there you could still. they had like government suburbans at. the Foreheads Palace is what what they. called it cuz it had four heads of. Saddam Hussein on top of the palace. The. presidential palace as it's now known.

um we could just sign out a a car and. like drive into the city like go buy. some pistachios and um that it was like. that for about 5 minutes um after I got. there and then things started going boom. pretty fast. >> Yeah. >> Um but we you know we were housed in the. palace. They just put CS in I don't know. if it was like a ballroom. So it's one. of the huge rooms. They just put all. these CS out and the lights were on 247.

Um, I saw a baby being made um right. there in front of like a lot of people. They eventually the mother and father. eventually got married, but it was there. was a lot going on there. Um, a lot going on. Um, yeah. So, um, but we, you know, we were we were. trying to do the work that we were. given. So, I was an advisor in the. Coalition Provisional Authority. I was.

an adviser to the Ministry of Finance. >> Oh, good. >> What does that mean? They basically what. they told me my job was going to be was. Excel spreadsheets and like having just. finished my MBA, I was like, I know how. to do that. Um, they at the time there were a lot of. countries that were that wanted to. donate to the rebuilding rebuilding of. Iraq. And a lot of people forget this. now, but in the early days, there were. also a lot of other countries that were. there, not in combat, but in like they.

wanted to show up and give and lend. support. Now, this like fast forward to. Afghanistan and you see all these there. were foreign nations that were there who. fought with us and and bled with us and. died with us. Um, in Iraq, people showed up. Um but then pretty. quickly this war became very unpopular. in their countries and we were kind of. on our own. Um and I saw a lot of these. um foreign troops kind of you know peace.

out. >> But um yeah so we were we were. we were specifically my team was on a. what they called a budget execution team. which was basically like executing the. budget paying out the money. Um. in an environment like that it's really. hard because everything was cash and um. the old they also decided the powers.

that be decided the old dinars that had. Saddam's face on them had to be you know. there they needed to be phased out and. there need to be new dinars made and. they were being made in England and this. was after a few months they were trucked. in and we had to you know trade out the. old ones for the new ones and we had to. make sure like the teachers got paid. But, you know, I remember when I have there's. so many things to say about this. I. don't I really don't even know where to.

begin. But I remember. when Bremer um announced that they were. disbanding the Iraqi army. And um at the time they said that the. Iraqi army uh soldiers were going to be. given 3 months pay and. that's it. Like go figure out your new. life. >> Mhm. >> I mean I've read books where people. tracked like when did the insurgency.

really start. Um and I remember um there. were riots. I mean that when they would. show up to get their payments and people. like CPA people, not me, but others had. to tell them like, "We're done. You're. not getting paid anymore." They would. riot and then they started making. threats and then they started following. through with those threats. Um it wasn't. hard to see. It's just, you know, the.

there was a a very concerted political. effort to ignore it. Um, so for example, I I learned later that. um, going back to our intelligence. assessment discussion, intelligence. analysts were not allowed to use the. term insurgency until Donald Rumsfeld. left as secretary of defense. >> What? >> Unrest. They had to call it unrest. They couldn't call it insurgency.

Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah. So. that happened. Um the there were new. ministers for all the different Iraqi. ministries that were installed and you. know there was this idea of like trying. to be fair because obviously the bath. party was all Sunni and they wanted to. put in Shia and kind of make it fair. Well, um, a lot of the Shia were, um, turned out.

to either become problematic or Iran. related or just weak, um, and not. popular, uh, with the people. So, they. didn't hang around for that long. But, I mean, I remember working with the. Iraqi Minister of Finance. So, our team, we were out of the green zone like every. day. We would travel to the Ministry of. Finance. Um, for anyone who knows about. security, let me paint this insane. picture for you. So, we were in a soft.

vehicle in a um, Suburban with a Humvey. of soldiers in front of us and behind. us. >> You were in a soft armored vehicle? Yeah. >> No armored vehicle. >> Uh, for many, many, many months there. were no armored vehicles available for. us because we were like GS9. What year. is this? >> 04 0 03 04. >> Holy. >> Yeah. And no no we had flack vests with. no plates in them. Um.

so and we but we were out like every day. and um I felt badly personally and we we. felt badly. I know my my teammates did. because these soldiers were were there. like protecting us. I'm like my life. isn't worth more than his life. Like. why? Like it just didn't didn't make. sense to me how why are we doing this? Like why can't we all just get in like a. Toyota, you know, and drive over there? No one will know who we are. Like why. are we doing this? It just seemed crazy.

And then we'd be stuck in traffic and. there'd be all these like apartment. buildings all around us and you know. >> so um all none of that nothing ever none. of that ever made sense to me. Um, but. we would have we would have over time a. decision was made because these uh these. ministers, the Iraqi ministers would. they requested security. They'd say, "I'm unsafe. Our ministry is not safe.

There's no Iraqi army anymore. The. American military is not guarding, you. know, had no interest in guarding. ministry of whatever." Um, so they. wanted their own security. So the. decision was made by the CPA, Bremer, I. assume, to provide them with their own. um security force. They could pick their. own security force and in many cases. like so we could train them, we could. equip them, give them firearms. Um and I.

mean imagine this like new Shia I mean. these were like they be some of them. became Shia militias and we started. them. Um when I left Iraq in 2004, one of the people that I worked with, he. was an adviser in the Ministry of. Interior. He was working with this was. called the Facilities Protection. Service, FPS. He he gave me an armband. from the FPS. Um and uh I still have it. I have it in my office at home just to.

remind me like. we are a big part of what is wrong. um. we did it. And um a lot of what we're. seeing today is like second and third. order effects of the very poor decisions. that we made and the fact that we. refused to acknowledge them at the time. and try to address them and try to find. some accountability. >> Could you elaborate on how we created.

that problem a little bit more? >> Yeah. So, like I was saying, the F the. FPS in this specific case. um the FPS. became um like a militias like they. grew. The security forces around these. different ministries grew and there were. some ministers, the Shia ones um that. some of them were, it turned out talking. to Kasum Solommani. Kasum Solommani was.

already um the the uh head of the IRGC. goods force was already like running. networks inside of Iraq and um he. influenced networks and um this was like. a a point that he picked up on an. opportunity. um but um it also came out um I think. it's important also to talk about Ahmed. Chalaby so Ahmed Chalaby. >> who's that. >> he was um he was a big figure in the.

runup to the invasion. He was someone he. was the head of something called the. Iraqi National Congress um and was one. of the main people saying when you. invade Iraq like the people will embrace. you and throw flowers on you and um he. was really embraced by um. you know group like American like. neocons. um and of which my father was one. My.

father was, you know, friends with some. of those people and uh some of the big. kind of pro-Iraq invasion people and I I. grew up around them. Um and so when I. got to Iraq, um you know, there were people who. worked for him who were like, "Oh, Simone, hello.". Um, and this was a really big like pivot. point for me personally when I just.

started to see what was going on. And he. had. he had uh this car scheme at the. Ministry of Finance where it was. basically like a moneyaundering scheme. of like getting uh cars from the. coalition and then selling them and. making money off of it and just. moneyaundering. Um, >> wow. And um the Iraqi Minister of. Finance one day when I was there working. called me into his office and he had. like turned out Chalib had like someone.

outside of his office just sitting there. watching who came in and out all day. And he called me into his office and. shut the door and he was like you have. to help me. They're going to kill me. Um. and I'm like who? You know I'm 28 years. old. Again I told you my background. I'm. like what are you talking about? Who? and uh he he wouldn't say the name, but. he's like, "You see this guy outside? Like they're they're trying to make me. do all kinds of things. Help me." Um so.

I didn't know what to do. I mean, I went. back to my leadership and I I was like. wrote my little report and um you know, that guy wasn't finance minister for for. very much longer. But I started to see. what was going on and what Chalaby in. particular was doing. And um and I I told my father, I was. like, "This is not a good guy. This guy. is not one of us. He's not doing pro. America stuff." Um and in fact, he's.

doing a lot of really shady a lot of. really shady things. And um my father. from day one believed me. And um but a. lot of his friends um who I'm sure are. going to see this, like they never they. always argued with me and they said he. was misunderstood. Um but now a lot has. come out and I think it's clear that he. was an Iranian asset from the beginning. and I think um Solommani was was his. hand handler. Um he traveled to Iran so.

many times and always tried to explain. it away like of course I have to deal. with them to you. Um so again. we like this is our own willful. blindness and um there's been no. accountability for that either. Um, but. so many people know about it. So many. people are angry. You know, we've been. betrayed and uh like. we're just sitting here with our anger, you know what I mean? And and yet the.

the region and and Iraq is not our. friend. Syria's doing Syria. I mean, it's still a cauldron. Um although. things have changed, but not because of. us. Um, not not really. >> Do you think we should have been in Iraq. to begin with? >> No. >> Why what makes you say that? >> I agree with you. I'm just curious. >> No, I think. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. And um I was I was totally radicalized.

by 911. We lost Barbara. I was like, let's go. I recently actually went to the um the. Bush George W. Bush Museum at SMU in. Dallas. I don't know if you've ever. been. I actually um I don't know if I. would recommend it to like GWAT. veterans. It's strange. Made me really. angry um because there's a whole like. GWAT. uh exhibition there or whatever and it.

has all these speeches, all the speeches. that they gave like leading up to the. invasion. And I I got so angry. I'm like. I was but I was mad at myself. I'm like. how did I ever believe this? How did I. ever believe there was any connection. between 9/11 and Iraq? There was none. What were we even doing? >> KBR, >> you know. Uh. >> do you think that's what it was, Dick.

Cheney? >> I think it was bigger than that. >> You think it was bigger than that? What. do you think it was? I think it was I. think that might have been part of it. because the years of like waste, fraud, and abuse through KBR was just like so. egregious and no one really ever did. anything about that. Maybe that was part of it. But, you. know, I also think like. there was this, you know, hanging like.

George Bush senior didn't really finish. the job in Iraq. like you know he find. he got Iraq out of Kuwait. Iraq had. invaded Kuwait. He launched the the Gulf. War to get Iraq out of Kuwait which. which was successful. But a lot of. people wanted him to go the step further. and regime change Saddam Hussein and he. didn't. Um but a lot of people in the. George W. Bush administration thought. now's the opportunity where we can.

finish that, where we can write that. wrong. Um, I think that's very real. And. um, so I think both of those reasons. Uh, but it's also important to say that. there was a belief that Saddam was. trying to um, was building. >> weapons of mass destruction of mass. destruction. I don't think I think a lot. of people did believe that and like in.

retrospect kind of good for him because. there had been this long you know Iran. Iraq war they were mortal enemies and he. wanted the Iranian regime to think that. he was holding on to this like huge. store of weapons of mass destruction. You know it it got him in the end. Um. but there at least it was enough of a. thread to pull that they built this. whole narrative around it. Um, and uh, and I know I mean,

of course, he didn't have weapons of. mass destruction. He had a large amount. of yellow cake uranium um, that they. eventually put on a ship and sent to. Canada. Um, but that was not weapons of. mass destruction. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you talk about. some of the waste, fraud, and abuse of. KBR, what what are you talking about? >> Oh, man. Um, I mean, I saw this in a lot more detail in. Afghanistan than I did in Iraq, but just.

like I remember the just because I was. in Iraq in the early days and all that. stuff was just getting going where, like. I said, initially we were housed in the. in the presidential palace and then. eventually they started, you know, bringing in these um these trailers And. the first trailers didn't have. bathrooms. So then those trailers were. moved out and they got the new trailers. that had bathrooms. And then I.

personally knew a couple of soldiers. that were somehow had gotten vehicles. through KBR and were like sending them. back to Konis. Yeah. I mean, obviously breaking the. law. Mhm. >> Um and um um I didn't like I found out. about it much later when I I didn't even. know where anybody was, but it was like. it was stuff like that. There was a lot. of deal making, a lot of like people.

kind of. I I I don't even know. I mean, and then. >> can you can you talk about the. connection between Dick Cheney and KBR? Well, he he was the CEO. before he was vice president. Well, he. was the CEO of Hallebertton. Um, of. which, uh, KBR was part of Hallebertton. and then they spun it off because it. looked really bad, didn't it? Um, >> yeah, it looked bad. >> Yeah. >> I mean, it's it's so hard to paint a picture of.

how much money was wasted. I mean, when. you're talking about the trailers, you're you're talking about basically a. mobile home. Thousands and thousands and. thousands and thousands Yeah. >> of mobile homes that were put out with. no bathroom and then all of a sudden. they're replaced with ones that have a. bathroom. I mean, we're it the amount of. money. >> and that was just. >> and it's the biggest I mean they ran.

from what I know they ran all logistics. all logistics in Iraq and in Afghanistan. and he was the CEO of it who's. now the vice president who obviously has. major poll. >> Correct. Yeah. Correct. I mean I I. remember at uh Biop uh Baghdad. International Airport we used to go. um we used to go there once a week on. Fridays when we didn't work and um we.

used to literally insane to think about. today risk our lives to go there to get. like Burger King so we wouldn't have to. eat whatever just to get out and and try. to feel like we were doing something. normal. But yeah, there was a Burger. King there. There was uh they were. building all kinds of stuff there. Um. and there was still. also the uh duty-free. So uh we were not.

order under general order one. We were. civilians assigned to the CPA which was. like basically. it was a DoD entity but anyway whatever. people bought booze at the um at the. airport but. even just in the 8 months that I was. there I mean there was such a huge. change um in terms of like building. things out and the only thing that I saw. during that time that was completely. egregious was the trailers and of course.

they weren't like we started getting. morted and rocketed pretty quickly after. I got there. And so there was no. protection for that at all. Like over. time they started putting sandbags. Um. so at least like if someone got hit the. shrapnel wouldn't hit someone else. But. I mean it was um. that's that's how it was in those early. days. Um pretty crazy to think about. today. Yeah. And when I when I finally. got home from that deployment, um I.

didn't realize that I was a little. rattled, but I remember I was at my. parents house for dinner one night and. there was like a window that was up and. it kind of fell down behind me and I was. like under the table and I didn't even. before everyone's like where's Simone? Uh I uh so it you know being going. through all that I it wasn't like I was. in combat or anything like that but we. got we got a lot of incoming over time. It could just kept getting worse and. worse and um a couple of my friends.

uh we had a couple of terrible. experiences. We had we worked very. closely with awesome uh translators and. we had these two girls who were we. became good friends of ours and I. remember one day they were coming on. base uh for work and there was the. security was so bad like no one really. cared about the local nationals that. were working with us was really sad and. um there was a huge line of cars of.

their cars waiting to get in through. security into the green zone every. morning. So, one day um some terrorist. like you know in an um SV bid just. placed himself in the middle of that. line of cars and detonated himself and. um all the cars caught on fire and. people were burned to death. Um. including one of our interpreters and um. and her friend who was in the car with. her like made it out. We tried to go to.

the hospital later to just like pay our. respects and visit. And the families. were like, "Get out of here. Like, we. don't want to see you here. Get out of. here." And um that was like, you know, that was a pretty low pretty low moment. Um, we had we had uh Oh, I know this is. kind of a this is another kind of sad. story, I guess, but when I was leaving, I'm I'm not uh always a rules follower.

And um you when we were in order to. leave uh Iraq as a CPA person, you're. supposed to take the rotator out to. Kuwait and then back home. Um, but I. knew this guy who. also an American who was working on the. kind of political. side of CPA and he had lived in the. Kurdish region for a long time before. the war and had friends up there and was.

leaving around the same time that I was. So he's he offered me to go with him and. basically his buddies were just going to. come pick him up outside the green zone. and he was going to they were going to. drive around, you know, spend like a. week uh in Iraqi Kurdistan and then like. leave through Turkey um you know uh on. the border like just by by foot. So I. thought that sounded awesome. Um idiot. And uh and so I did that and. we got stopped.

>> Oh F. First of all, I got in so. much trouble for that because um it was. actually really sad. This woman, Fern. Holland, who was doing. uh she was doing she was she was trying. to help Iraqi women um who were victims. of domestic violence. That's a lot to unpack there, okay? But. she was there doing that and God bless. her. Um she was killed uh and she was.

killed right when I kind of like wasn't. when I had left. And so for a while. there was this Marine colonel who was. kind of in charge of me. He had he. didn't know he thought that might have. been me basically. I didn't give him a. lot of information. I think I just left. I'm very sorry about that. Um but yeah, we drove. So, we get to Bakuba and we. got pulled over by. police maybe or just random criminals.

wearing Iraqi police uniforms. And um we. had to. they asked us for our IDs and uh my. friend just gave them his like library. card from the school that he had gone to. because we were not going to show them. our CPA or any US stuff and they got. really mad. Anyway, long story short, I. think the Kurds who were are kind of. driver shooters kind of passed them some. money and and we we went on our way. But.

it was um we went all over. um to hook. We went to um Sulammania. and uh just had an amazing did picnics. with some of his Kurdish friends and u. met a lot of people. I actually learned. a lot on that trip. And then as we were. exiting, we were going into Turkey, um I. uh forgot that I had had one spent round. in my um in my bag. It was uh a shell.

casing that fell into my trailer the. night that uh everyone was celebrating. in Baghdad when we caught when we caught. Saddam. >> And um you know, what goes out must come. down. a lot. Some of it came down into. our uh housing and uh and when I I was. sleeping in the palace that night, when. I came back, there was this like one. spent round and and so I thought it was. cool. I'll keep it. And the Turks uh at. the border crossing were like not stoked.

about that and I had had a little bit of. a problem getting in. But anyway, that. was um that was my Iraq experience. And. I will say I did not it it's taken me. years to to I think properly understand. um my role but also what I witnessed. Um. there were some really also just sad. things that happened there. Like in. addition to what I said there was a. colonel that I had worked with a lot. He.

was getting ready to rip out and uh his. last day he brought this woman this. Iraqi woman. beautiful, beautiful young. woman. And I understood pretty quickly. that they they had had something going. on and um he was trying to find a job. for her because he was leaving and he. was abandoning her. And uh you know, it. was just it was a terrible He's like, "Well, maybe, you know, you guys have. space for an interpreter or something.". And I'm like, "No, we don't. You know,

piece of shit." And uh this woman. probably her whole family knows what. you've been up to. and now what's her. life going to be? You know, um stuff. like that just made me really angry cuz. I'm like we're leaving, you know, we're. not going to stay here. And um anyway, yeah. Yeah. Um. >> what are some lessons that you think. What are some lessons you learned from. that war?

>> I think I'm still learning lessons from. that war. Um but. the important the most important one for. me was um how how easily like how you. can get your blood heated. Uh how I can. and how easily in a way I was um. I believed something so strongly that. was wrong. Um, and.

that that is something that I hope like. has guided me in the rest of my life. Um, because. I so believe that was the right thing. and it's so clear now that it wasn't. Um, and um, I'm I also want to help to. teach people that about that. Um, because it's not just we have so many.

bad feelings about the specifics of of. what happened and how it happened, but. um, in the broader strategic context, what a huge mistake it was for us. and. and we're living with the consequences. today. We're suffering from what that. did to us as a country today. >> Um would we be where we are with China? Um if we you know if we we we knew what.

the threat from China was going to be. back then even um. >> but maybe not to this extent but there. were people there were smart people who. understood where China was headed. Maybe. it wasn't clear that they would achieve. their goals, but it was clear where they. wanted to go. Um, but. yeah, this was this that was the most. important lesson of all of that. But. there were many like micro lessons, too. >> Do you think that war was all for. nothing?

>> I mean, I want to say no. I want to say no. >> I'm with you. Um, and I'm sure maybe if we sit here. long enough, we can come up with. um, reasons why it might not have been. >> Can you think of any positives? >> Well, I think. it's it's always I don't like being. totally negative about anything. Uh, I.

think there's always good in everything. You can always find it if you look hard. enough. Uh, but this was so bad. It was. so bad. And um and I'm thinking in. particular of a a a friend of mine who. um died by suicide last year who is a. two-time Iraq veteran. And I was in his. wedding. Um and he was a mentor to my. brothers. Both of my brothers served in. the Marine Corps. Um one in Iraq and one. in Afghanistan. And um you know that.

um. he I I know that he was very angry about. everything uh and about the war. And I. think in his later years he actually he. was a Naval Academy graduate. I think he. um regretted joining the Naval Academy, regretted his entire military career. Um. and um you know that that was really. that was really tough. Um.

he was struggling for a long time. Um. and I know there are a lot of other. people who are going through that too. Unfortunately he was also an addict. Um. and I think the addiction really got a. hold of him. Um and he wasn't someone. who um who really sought help easily. So, um, but yeah, I mean it's, um, we. have a lot of, hey, my brother who. served in Iraq, he went through a lot,

too. Um, and thank God he he got help. He's doing amazing now. Um, but he lost. Marines. Um, and I, you know, I just I have a lot of. like compassion and love for veterans. and I kind of feel like all of you are. my brothers and um I that's why I love. uh kind of staying in the mix, you know, and why when I had the opportunity to go. back into government in a role where I.

could potentially take these lessons. that I've learned and like maybe try to. turn it into something good. Uh that was what I wanted to do. I don't. know if I did, if I managed to, but that. was kind of my thought process. Um and. that's that's uh it kind of guides me. today. So, I don't know. I mean, everything bad we go through, we're. supposed to learn from it, right? If it. doesn't kill you. Um so, hopefully it's.

made us wiser as a nation. I love to see. so all these I love to see all these. people commenting now about like no no. war no um and I like I agree but I also. think not every military action is a. full-blown war. >> um. >> I think it's important to make that that. um I think that that difference is. important and I also think. >> uh we live like the United States is in.

the world you know we can't just totally. bear bury our heads in the sand and when. we do things get worse and then in the. end we end up having to do something. like I I was telling you with the Iran. stuff like then we end up being trapped. into actually having to take some action. if we're not kind of like managing. things early on. >> Mhm. Mhm. Well, Simone, let's take a. quick break. >> Great. >> When we come back, we'll get into. Afghanistan. The news just doesn't stop. Between the.

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That's 8667818900. or you can go to. americanfinancing.netsrs. All right, Simone, we're back from the. break. We're getting ready to get into. some Afghanistan stuff. So, so you get. home from Iraq and then you roll you. roll back to Afghanistan. >> Yeah. Uh, a little bit of a funny story.

So I when I was in Iraq, I met. um I met uh the assistant secretary for. defense for special operations uh ASD. Solic uh who was Tom McConnell at the. time and um he was like a leg just a. legendary guy um in all respects and. became a mentor of mine. But anyway, he. he asked me what I was doing after Iraq. and I had no idea and so he offered me a.

job at the Pentagon. Um and so that's. what I did when I came back. But funny. story, you know, it takes a long time to. get a security clearance if you've never. had one before. And um and I'd spent. some time in, you know, in Europe and. whatever. So, um I was not able to do. any work in that office until I got uh. like a a high uh TS clearance and I only. had a secret clearance. So, they put me.

in another office which was the Office. of Iraq Reconstruction or something like. that and I ended up getting stuck. I mean, it was that job was so bad. I. ended up getting stuck responding to. congressional inquiries about like just. hostile congressional inquiries. I was. like, "You lost $8 billion of Iraqi. money. Where did it go?" And um and so I. just spent my entire day every day. responding to really aggressive.

congressional inquiries. So I. volunteered to go to Afghanistan. I was. like, "That's got to be better than. this. Wow. I've never heard that comparison. Afghanistan's got to be better than. this. Interesting state. Was it? >> Yes. >> Good. >> It was. >> good. Yeah. Yeah. So, um so I I went uh in. 2004 to Afghanistan. And I was there.

almost the entire year. uh working with. at the time the US command was um CFC. Alpha um combined forces command. Afghanistan and um the commander was. Carl Ikenberry who later became our our. ambassador to Afghanistan. He was a. three star at the time. And so I went. there uh I was embedded in the plans. shop and our the reason I was there was.

because um. there was someone it might have been. Doug Feith I don't know who someone in. the Pentagon. uh who was important had this idea about. so they were at the time trying to solve. this problem which never got solved. Um, how does how do we leave Afghanistan. with some money? Like what what's their. revenue gonna be? Because with Iraq,

that wasn't going to be a problem. Their. revenue was oil. But what does. Afghanistan have? They have like heroin. Yeah, they have they have opium. Um, so. what's an what are the alternatives and. >> lithium? Well, at the time, that's. right. But at the time, the thought was. customs revenue. Afghanistan is kind of. the way point between east and west. historically, like the old silk route. And what if we could actually So, there.

was no real customs revenue being. collected at the border for the country. It was just like all the Afghan border. police, you know, taking bribes and um. boxes and like putting it in their own. pockets. But what if what if we were. able to change that up and actually. collect revenue for the country? Could. that work? Could that cover the budget. of the country? So, um the plan shop. built this pilot project and I got.

embedded into that to basically um do. the numbers and kind of see like what. were we collecting be what were they. collecting before, what are they. collecting now? And I was working with. uh you know the some military guys um. from the plan shop Marines and a ranger. who had a whole they did a whole thing. I mean they picked a border crossing. point which was Islam Kala which is at.

the border uh in the west with Iran um. near Harat and uh they replaced the. border police commander with a border. police commander from the east. So he. wasn't part of the western tribal. network. Um so it would it was harder. for him to be corrupt was the whole idea. behind it. And then you know his he. brought a new force with him that was. also from the east. They were better. trained. They were better equipped. They.

had more fuel. They had you know more. money for food and stuff. And so the. idea was like, let's see if if we do all. this, will they will they uh bring back. customs revenue and in a meaningful way? And so I I was the one who kind of like. documented it and did all the numbers. and the budgets and everything. And um. and the answer after 3 months was yes. Um and and then general I can bury um. and and by the way, like it took a long. time to get this up and running, but we.

did get it up and running 3 months. later. And there's a lot of stories to. tell in between like the the trip that. the guys took. I didn't go on that trip. for obvious reasons, but they drove from. Kabell to Harat on the ring road um with. these Afghans, the Afghan border police. And um that was kind of you know they. they like to talk about well there were. a lot there were a lot of stories from. that but they you know they were really. part of um.

I mean they they uh I don't know what. I'm trying to say here. Anyway, um the. bottom line is it worked. Yeah. >> So you so basically what you were doing. is you you were replacing Afghanistan's. income with with borders with uh with. customs issues. You're you're replacing. the opium trade with. customs. >> The opium trade the the revenue from the. opium trade went to like the drug. traffickers. >> And the problem that we were trying to.

solve was like how is the government of. Afghanistan going to make money that's. not ours? That's not like the US. taxpayer money, >> you know, like they need to be. self-sufficient like fast. So, how are. we going to. >> Somehow that became our problem. That's. a a different conversation. I I just got. there when someone was trying to figure. out the answer to that question. So, um. you know, again, I was like, gs,

whatever. But but that was that was the. job. So trying to document. um how much money did did the government. collect at the border crossing points. when they were you know when things we. were really focused on them and we. trained them and all all this stuff. Um, and so, uh, within a 3-month period, which was the period of the pilot. project, uh, it seemed like, at least,

you know, the initial numbers were. pretty good. Um, and the old guys had. been moved away. They'd been fired and. kind of moved off, uh, the border. because they they weren't effective. They were just corrupt like everybody. else. >> And that was that that worked. >> It did. >> How many people are coming in and out of. there? >> I mean, so many. It was unbelievable. so many um. day and night, mostly day. But I mean, we we also would have people come up to. us cuz the like the Marines that I was.

with obviously they took off their. jackets that had their name tape on it. and stuff and uh these people would come. up to us and be like, "Are you guys. going to invade Iran?" And uh probably. Iranian collectors for all I know and. and they're like, "Yeah, tomorrow. Get. ready." Um. Marines. But um but yeah, I mean it was. um there there was a lot of money and um. and it was it was cap, you know, was for. that period of time we made a an effort.

to actually capture the amounts and um. and look over their shoulders a bit. And. it it I think at least the concept was. proven. But um. one of many kind of tragic things that. happened was that the commander we. briefed him on on the program and how it. was successful and he was like is this. Doug Feith? Is this Doug Fe's idea? I'm. like I don't know. I don't know who you.

know we didn't know whose idea it was. It was like we were told to do this so. we're doing it. Um but he immediately. got political which was to me kind of. like a red flag. I'm like so what? it it. works. Um and uh and then he you know he. decided that this wasn't a security. mission. Um that it was a it was a bort. well it was customs and therefore it was. a we needed to transition it over to the. embassy. This was not appropriate for.

the military command to be to be doing. Um even though border security I don't. know classic. >> security I mean security is literally in. the name but okay so um so we had to. transition it to the embassy um which. meant that the uh the guy that was. assigned to it nice guy I guess like. older gentleman um not part of having. trained this guy the the commander um. whose name was um General Aub wasn't.

part of that, you know, they they pulled. all of the all of our military assets. that we kind of had just as a show of. force kind of around the border police. uh facility. All of that was gone. His. um his partner like uh this guy Tony who. was his kind of trainer and partner also. pulled back. So uh predictably within a. pretty short period of time he was. killed. um the commander was killed and.

you know over there was reporting that. he was like he'd started to take a. little on the side and do all that but. it's like man we abandoned him. We. totally abandoned him and all of the. people that from that region and the. drug traffickers that he was going after. they did some really significant drug. busts during that time. They I mean they. everyone knew what was going on. they. all knew and and that was that was the. end for him. And um and really I went.

back. I went back to so I I came home like in. November of '04 and I I went back to. Harat in like 20 2009. >> my my next deployment I I just went out. there. I was based in Kbble. I was at. ISAF headquarters that time. >> You couldn't travel outside the base. without an MRAP. like you had to be in. an MRAP then because the security. situation had changed so much. But in. 2004,

you know, we would we had our like. Hiluxes. We just drive into Harra. We. did like tourism one day. We saw. Alexander the Great had a there was. still remnants of. >> Yeah. And uh we we went and visited. that. We did like some carpet shopping. um you know drank had some tea and um it. was just a totally different experience. and I I do think the two are related. Um. I I don't think of course the when I got.

back there the Iranians had built all. this they they built electricity. They. built a lot of new Shia mosques. Harat. Harat was beautiful by far the most like. outside of Kbble and it might have been. even more beautiful than Kabell. Um. you think Kbble was beautiful. >> compared to the rest of the country was. built up let me put it that way it was. built but parts of cobble were. beautiful. Yes.

>> I didn't see those parts. I spent a lot. of time in cobble. I mean, I guess it is. what you make it in a way, but I just. there was so the things that I thought. were beautiful there were um I I mean I. I I liked they have all these fruit. trees and you know there was a lot of. flowering things there that I thought. were made it made it nice. Um but. obviously. you know I'm sure you did too. We were.

testing the air quality uh when we were. living there and it was like. >> it was. >> 30% feal matter or something with. >> I remember I remember the air especially. in the winter time when everybody was. burning tires and to. >> literal building burning. >> Yeah. I remember spitting in the sink. and my spit was gray and I could barely. open my eyes if I went out, especially. at night in the winter because that's, you know.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm probably. romanticizing it a little bit. >> Maybe just a tad. >> Yeah. Yeah. You're right. Yeah. >> But so what were you doing? How does. this fit in with special ops? What you. were doing? Um well that was um. here's how it fits in with special ops. Great question. So I traveled around the. country to as many border crossing.

points as I could doing my assessment. Um, and uh, I went with teammates when. they could go, but a lot of times it was. just me. And um, and so a lot of the. border crossings around the country at. the time were like I had to go meet up. with like ODA, ODB, whatever. They were. the ones that were controlling that. territory. So, um, they I was not. allowed to go south. They would they.

would not they said it was too. dangerous. and I never I never got to. see um. >> I never got to see the border crossing. points in the south. Um but yeah, I went. out east in particular. Um I spent some. time with our our special forces out. there uh green braise and um there's one. one instance I remember um I think it. was Assadabad. um not Abadabad um which was Pakistan.

but Assadabad I went out there and had. the opportunity to meet up with. um. this ODA and the OD B commander as well, the major um and they took me to we went. to the AFPAC border just um pretty. barren, pretty pretty crazy. I don't. really know why I was I probably. shouldn't have been out there um in. retrospect. >> I was going to say that's a pretty.

dangerous area. >> It was. It was. And we um we drove. through we drove across this road that. was um it was not paved. It was like. pebbles. And they one of the they were. telling me the story about how they lost. their buddy um first sergeant Jeremy. Wright. Um he had been blown up by an. IED um there and that like there's no. way just because of the way the road. was. There was really no way to to tell. if there was like.

>> you couldn't tell if the if it had been. disturbed or not. Um, and they were, I. mean, I could see they were. still in mourning and that he had been. like a great dude and it was awful. And. the thing that was really bothering. them, aside from just losing their. friend, was that that road was a US A. project. um paving that road was a. project that had already been like. approved and paid for by US aid, but the.

contractor was a Turkish company and. they hadn't uh they hadn't showed up yet. to do the work. And so these guys like. every time they wanted to go to the. border, which they had to go there a. lot, had to drive over the same like. patch of earth. So, um I feel like this. might have been the only actual good. thing that I did my entire deployment, but when I got back to Kbble, uh one of. my one of my friends there, she was a US. A uh rep or whatever, and I told her.

about it, and I I actually truly don't. know if there was a connection, but I. heard from them like pretty soon after. that the construction company came and. paved the road. Um, but I was like, why why aren't they here? Like, why. haven't they done this? We Someone got. killed here already. Like, why is wasn't. this moved up in the priority? And they're like, oh, everyone's late on. everything. It's all late. Everything's. late. Um, and then I came to find out.

one of my trips to Harat, the US A guy, uh, who was he was the US aid rep in in. Harat, he um. someone showed me some reporting that he. had accepted like gifts of 40 carpets. from these um from these uh fuel where. are they like oil and gas traffickers. Basically, they'd built like a.

underground. pipeline, which was not legal and not. approved, so they could move uh fuel. from Iran into Afghanistan. And this guy. just let it happen. >> No kid, I had no idea that was going on. >> Yeah. And um so that I mean it was small. It. wasn't like a huge operation, but it was. still anyway. um all that. I mean, we I. I saw that, but that was the work that I. did with with special operations was.

they supported me um when I was, you. know, when I was going to do my. assessments and collection um for this. border crossing project and trying to. understand like so if someone comes. across like how do you assess a customs. duty like who is the one who assesses. that? Um, no one who's literate, like no. one who's I mean obviously you you know. the kind of people they had manning. those border crossing points was like.

anyone who would agree to put on a. uniform um and um and his triboy. So. like yeah, I mean that was that was uh. that was my experience. But uh you know. I I had met some of their. their colleagues in Iraq because in Iraq. we started getting calls from military. units that you know the money the money.

movement like we were moving in US. dollars as well as these new dinars and. um they were finding pallets of US. dollars that were still shrink wrapped. from the Fed in insurgent rates. Um, and. the different military units would call. us at the CPA and be like, "What do we. do with this? We found this says it's. like half a million USD. Like, what. should we do with it?" And um, yeah, it's like we we have no idea what we're.

doing. We have no idea. >> Wow. >> Where what was this? Where was this. money supposed to go? Had a barcode on. it, too. Um they they all of those those. things that came from the Fed, those. pallets of cash, they all had barcodes. on them. Um but anyway, um yeah, so I. you know, I ran into some of the people. that I knew from those days. I ran into. some of them in Afghanistan and and then. just kind of kicking around like there's. not a lot of mis out in places like.

that. And um you know, Firebase Torum, I. remember that place. um that was on the. old Silk Route actually kind of a cool. place because. like off in the distance you could see. an old English outpost. Um and again I'm. like here we are again. You know we hope. it's going to go better this time I. guess. Uh but there was so much traffic. coming. I mean, so much traffic and.

learning about we basically had no idea. um who was coming. There could have been. like WMD for all we knew being trucked. in and uh the roads were just were we're. were completely packed all the time. So, but my focus at the time again was like. how do we how can how can how can. attacks be collected against this? It's. it's absurd to think about today that we. were actually trying to do that. Absolutely absurd. But that was that was. the mission.

>> Interesting. So you left Afghanistan was. this 2004. >> and then went back again in 2009. >> Yeah. >> What what did you do in between there? >> So I did my clearance did finally come. through. So then I did go to uh to Solic. Solic and that was when um I I started. working on counter threat finance. So. the Tom McConnell. um he he was ASD Solic at the time. Um.

former Green Beret Vietnam veteran, served in uh CIA uh as well. Just a a. legend. And he he believed strongly that. um you know Clauswitz and his centers of. gravity you know his enemy centers of. gravity he felt strongly that money was. an enemy center of gravity and we should. be focusing on disrupting their. financial flows. Um and that was like. I'd always wanted to do that right that.

was my original this is what I'm going. to figure out how to do. So very cool. opportunity. Um and when I finally got. clear to know everything, I I learned. that it was a big inter agency effort. that had already gotten started and. there was um an Iraq threat finance cell. that was underway that was like a. Treasury Department thing, but um there. were a lot of rice bowl issues because. the commander on the ground was like, "No, I'm not going to have the Treasury.

Department leading an effort in my. battlefield. like I'm in charge. It's. like cool. You don't actually know. anything about how to do this, but like. awesome, >> good, good job. Um, so there was a lot of it there was just. a lot of drama over those kind of. things. But it was a really amazing. effort both uh you you had not just like. Treasury and DoD but you had like intel. people, you had law enforcement people, there was um you know when things really.

got going um they had like FBI and IRS. criminal investigators like going inside. the booth like interrogation booth when. military units would roll up um like. financial people, they would help with. interrogation. um and really get amazing information. Turned out that the money guys didn't. get the same kind of training to. withstand interrogation that the. operational guys did.

>> No kidding. >> And so they they talked and it turned. out a lot of them kept two sets of books. too because they were also skimming and. uh and so then we had leverage. Um and. so it it was it was a really cool and. very successful effort. The um I would. say the kind of pinnacle of that in in. Iraq was this operation. Um it led to. this big operation in the at the Beiji.

oil refinery where um months of work. determined that AQI was making a ton of. money off of fuel smuggling from the. Beiji oil refinery which is like the big. oil refinery in Iraq. And um they were. like the the trucking company was AQI. and like the this dude and that dude. were being paid off by AQI. And anyway, um you know, the the team did a. phenomenal job of doing a whole network.

analysis and being like here are the key. nodes and um and the military came and. rolled them up and stopped. It was. amazing. Um of course they AQI, you know, being AQI, they they found new. and exciting ways to um to get money, but that was. >> what were some of those ways? kidnapping for ransom, um drug. smuggling, um.

I mean that's just a few. I mean, anything you can think of, anything and. everything. Um but fuel smuggling was by. far for them like that was the real. winner. They that was when they were. making big money. Um but they still like. they would um tap into the pipeline, you. know, break break open the pipeline and. just siphon siphon off uh some gas um. and sell that. So yeah, I mean they're. incredibly incredibly creative.

Basically all kinds of criminal. activities that you could imagine, that's what they did. Um and that's what. most of these terrorist groups do. They're criminals, but they have this. ideological component. um they're. engaging in criminal activity. um for some of them for ideological. purposes. Although a lot of them are. just straight up criminals and they're. just like acting as if they're some kind. of religious, you know, some some type of like high. highly moral religious figure. Um but so.

we Yeah. So so I started working on that. and that was that was amazing. Um, I was. doing that out of the Pentagon, but I. got to go back to Iraq and kind of see. what everyone was doing and just. advocate for it. Um, and at the time. there was the ASD wanted to kind of. codify it because it it seemed like such. an important part of the effort and. everyone was so complimentary and the. commanders were really happy about what. we were turning out. So, um, yeah, I got.

tasked with with, uh, this is going to. be boring for a lot of people, but. writing the counter threat finance. policy for the DoD. So, that took. forever, um, because the DoD is such a. huge bureaucratic monster. And when. you're writing a new policy, you have to. get everything coordinated with everyone. who changes every word and everyone gets. in fights. And um it was a huge it was a. huge thing and it took a couple years. Um but there were so many successes.

behind it. It was undeniable. So in the. end um I think today it's been through a. lot of revisions since my time. But I. think there still is a a counter threat. finance policy. And we called it that. because originally it was just it was. going to be counterterrorism. uh finance. But the terrorism like the. legal definition. um like basically requires like you're. talking about designated terrorist. groups and in Iraq there were all kinds.

of different. terrorist groups but also insurgent. groups that hadn't necessarily been. named and designated in that way but. they were also included um because they. were still killing people and killing. Americans in some cases and definitely. the enemy So counter threat finance was. was the term that we u we ended up with. >> Did you did you work directly with. General Mcrist and General Thin? >> I did. >> How was that experience?

>> Um I worked uh I worked for them in in. Afghanistan um 2009 2010. That was uh spicy spicy. Um. >> why do you say that? Well, I you know, I. loved working for General Mcrist and um. and I I learned a lot working from. General Flynn, working for General. Flynn. I learned a lot from him as well. Um.

but I'll tell you, you know, it was uh. there was a a lot of drama always um. with Flynn. I mean, he was he was a. great boss to me. He understood what I. was doing. He supported me. Um, and you. know, I'm not like. just understanding what we were trying. to do. Myself and and like our whole. team of kind of counter threat finance. people. He was very much on board with. that and and so was Mcrist. Um, but you.

know, there were. there are things that like either you're. comfortable with or you're not. So these. are guys that you know from J-A like. they operated in a certain way and you. either had to be comfortable with that. or not. Personally, I was the um the the. thing that I remember Flynn always. saying was like this is war. Like we're. in a war, so we have to do everything. that we can to win the war. And that. included sometimes sharing information,

sharing intelligence that was like re. a very small group or sometimes not even. re sharing that with a foreign partner. on the battlefield. And by the way, that's a like legally that's a decision. that they're entitled to make. Like. they're legally allowed to do that. >> Um but there were some people. um on the J2 staff who were. uncomfortable with that. And I remember. one of them actually going home and I. >> Who were you guys sharing intelligence.

with? >> Other other like countries that were. fighting with us? >> Why would they be opposed to that? >> Because it was like you know not oh it's. not real their country. So, we shouldn't. be sharing it with them. Like, well, they're going down range with us. tomorrow, so they should probably know. that this thing is happening. >> Yeah. Was it was it major push back. about I mean, I guess so. They sent. somebody home. >> No, someone like voluntarily asked to. leave. He has to leave. Um, but so it.

was kind of like this is how we're. prosecuting this war. Either you're on. board or you're not. It was very clear. from the beginning that like this was. this was what I believed and again I was. wrong because we we were we were still. there 10 years later but I felt at the. time like this is either going to change. the tide and work or like we're done. here. Um and and I felt that was kind of.

the sense that I got from the command. was like we got to turn the ship around. right away. Um, but then. things started happening like that email. and I regret I don't remember his name. now, but there was an email like halfway. through. um that year from. from a soldier to General Mcrist. So, Mcrist and Flynn and the um the J3, the.

CJ3, uh they would they would do like. battlefield circulation all the time. So, they would travel to different parts. of the country um to kind of talk to. people and see what was going on. And. this was after the whole. counterinsurgency strategy was. implemented, which meant. a change to the um LOE, the ROE, excuse. me. And um that change to the ROE was.

like meant that our people were taking. more risk and um in some cases getting. killed because they couldn't respond to. something unless you know all of these. conditions were met. >> And um I know a lot of people were very. I had nothing to do with that. A lot of. people were very concerned about that, very angry and felt it was the wrong. thing to do. Um, and uh, I don't know enough about combat.

to be like I I wouldn't presume to have. an opinion, but I'm sympathetic to that. point of view just because of what I. saw. So, I remember there was an email. that came through to like everyone on in. the Mcrist's team who saw his email saw. this uh, note and it made its way. around. I think it got leaked in the. media somewhere where there was a. soldier who was like, you know, your ROE. is a piece of basically and like. here here's like the 50 reasons why like.

this is terrible. You know, we can't win. like this. >> Do you remember what the ROE was? I. think I was in country when this came. out, but. >> I would have to I would have to look at. it specifically. But. >> I mean, I remember this is if I remember. correctly, this is when there was going. to be a major push in Maria. >> Am I correct? Do you remember that? >> I do remember that. >> Lashkar province was really hot at the. time. And I remember and it was right.

after the coast bombing at the CIA base. >> Yeah. And the ROE suddenly changed to. basically you can kill an enemy. combatant to if you're shot at and the. enemy drops his weapon then you're not. allowed to fire. And that came out right. before the Marines were going to do that. big offensive push. >> Yeah. >> Into Mara. I believe it was Maria. >> Yeah. and and they said that that would.

be the second biggest offensive that the. military had done since Fallujah. >> Huge. >> I mean. detrimental. And not only that, I mean. demoralizing your troops. >> Was demoralizing. >> Demoralizing them. Like we don't have. your back. We don't care what happens. They drop that weapon. You can't shoot. >> So to have that going on playing in your. head. >> Yeah. you know, if I take this shot, am. I going to prison for the rest of my.

life? On top of all the other decisions. that you have to make in combat. I mean, it was. >> I was so pissed off about that. And I. wasn't even in the mil in the military. anymore. I was contracted for CIA, so it. didn't really affect me. But. >> man, I fell for those guys when that. came out. I mean, I I didn't truly understand. until I read that email. what it meant. Um,

and I I also felt for I felt for them. and I I didn't understand why. uh that feedback was received loud and. clear. It was discussed and it was. it didn't change anything. didn't change. anything. We were they were going to. proceed. Um but when. >> that didn't come from Mcrist and Flynn, correct? That roe. >> I think it came from Mcrist.

>> I thought that came straight down from. Obama. >> It might have. It might have come from. Obama. He absolutely micromanaged every. aspect of that war. >> He did. >> He absolutely did. Yes. um through the. NYSE which grew to like an astronomical. size because they were micromanaging. everything. Um I mean I you know I was. working in counterterrorism in the. Pentagon before I before I went uh I.

went back to Afghanistan. And so I. started to to understand because I was. like part of my job was just like. briefing all my seniors every week about. new things. And this was like at the. height of we were designating terrorists. and we were targeting terrorists based. on financial intelligence and um so. there was you know these weekly. briefings to the joint staff and and our. political bosses. I was in the room for. all those things and I heard and so I.

learned a lot about how the chain of. command is supposed to work. Um, and. uh, when Obama came in, they just added. so many layers and it was like. commanders couldn't make decisions. anymore. They had to ask permission from. the White House and uh, it screwed up a. lot of things. It made made a lot of. operations impossible. just ended them. before they started and just made them. so much more dangerous as well because.

>> I mean, you know, like sometimes you're. dealing with a fleeting target. You got. to take the you got to take the. opportunity when you have it. Um and uh. there was just no appreciation for that. But but I I will say something that. happened that um might be interesting. So while I was there. uh during that tour, General Mcrist was. at a certain point very interested. There had been a lot of rumors about uh.

someone named Ahmed Wally Carzai who was. the brother of uh President Cararzi and. there was a lot of rumors. um pretty factually based that he was a. narcotics trafficker um and was involved. in a lot of really bad things and also. tied to the Taliban. And um so Mc Crystal set us on a deep. dive like the entire like all of his. kind of intel team.

You guys go out into. you know go out into the wild and see. who has what on AWK and you know come. back. I think I forget how much time we. were given like a month or something and. like let's everyone get together and. let's figure out like is this guy is is. he really bad? what are we gonna do. about it? Let's do this deep dive. So, no one there was nothing.

like no smoking gun tying AWK to. anything. Um, but also I will say there. was so much circumstantial evidence that. it was obvious that he was all of those. things. But because the. um the ceiling like you had to meet an. impossible level of certainty. that we weren't able to meet. We weren't. able like no he never got up on a call. and said I'm going to traffic some drugs.

today. Hello my Taliban friends. Like. that. Yeah. I mean that that never. happened. and he did I mean all of his. activities were through lieutenants and. and subcommanders and stuff. So um so I. remember a huge effort to to get. everything together and then it just. like and he was assassinated shortly. after that. Uh so the problem went away. anyway. But um that was at the time.

really disappointing because I'm like. it's obvious this is a super bad dude. and it's a problem for the United. States. Um, and he might have also been. working with us in some way. I don't. know. Um, but the other um, >> who assassinated him? >> One of his rivals, I guess. >> Do you think it was us? >> I I I have no information that it was. us. Yeah. I don't know. Um,

I don't know. Um, but I think I think that. well, yeah, I I have no I have no information. on that one way or the other, but I know. it solved a problem. Uh, with respect to you mentioned Mara. So, one of the other things that I I really. that I remember from that deployment was.

um another kind of directive that came. down from Mcrist where he wanted he. wanted a deep dive on Taliban finance. and he said, "Look, there are all these. rumors that people have been saying for. years, you know, Gulf, like they're. getting all their money from the Gulf.". Um, and there's a whole uh I mean. there's a whole a whole rabbit uh hole. that we can dive down in that, but. that's interesting to like 10 people. But like he wanted a deep dive on. Taliban finance. He's like, is their.

money still really coming from the Gulf. or are there other sources of. >> how would it be coming? How how's it. coming from the Gulf? >> Well, they would go to the Gulf. the. Taliban and al-Qaeda would go and other. terrorist organizations as well go would. go to the Gulf um different Gulf. countries and individuals who supported. what they were doing and they would go. specifically during Ramadan was like a. big fundraising period um where Muslims. are you know encouraged to give to.

charity and uh and so they would collect. they would raise a lot of money as a. charity towards these like. towards their terrorist causes um and. you know they frame it as. um they're advancing you know radical. Islam and they're they're fighting you. know the great Satan or whatever and uh. and so yeah they raised a lot of money. that way. They also I mean there were in. the early days there were these were. groups that were later designated um by.

the Treasury Department, the State. Department, but they were like. humanitarian. They were they they were. masquerading as humanitarian. like Islamic relief or stuff like that. But um but they were they were terrorist. fronts and they were raising money that. through that through those uh avenues. and they raised a lot of money and it. also became a political hot potato. because you know the US government's.

designating Islamic relief like oh are. are you Islamophobic like no I'm. terroristophobic. Um but that's you know that's uh. there was not a lot there was enough. political will for a period of time to. do that and then it went away but fast. forward so. you know as Jac commander obviously. Mcrist was focused elsewhere but I'm.

sure like he had enough information to. know that when he was Jac commander a. lot of this a lot of these funds were. coming in that way so he wanted to know. like here I am commander at ISAF. How is. the Taliban today making its money? And. um so we got and there were um some. colleagues of mine from the Treasury. Department and by that point there was. an Afghanistan threat finance cell and. so there were all these inter agency. folks that were there um doing amazing. things and put together uh a really.

compelling. assessment that the Taliban is actually. getting its money from us. They're. making its money. They are making their. money from us. If you consider our. logistic supply chain into Afghanistan, they were extorting money on every. single link in that supply chain. Um, so. we were paying the Taliban. >> Are you serious? Yeah. How c can you be. a little more descriptive how that was. happening? So uh you have supply trucks.

coming in for supreme for the uh you. know our food, our fuel, our. sustainment, any anything for. sustainment. It all went through. Pakistan. Um because it couldn't go I. mean if you look at a map there only a. few ways that that stuff can enter into. Afghanistan. So it all came in through. Pakistan and uh that the Taliban are in. Pakistan and they were not just there. but also in Afghanistan.

they had locked down these trucking. companies and also in not just the. trucking companies but also the. individual drivers and uh sometimes the. like subcontractors to big American. primes. that were like not necessarily American, they were also being extorted. >> Wow. >> All this came to light in 2010. >> and you uncovered that. I I not me. personally like I was part of a team but.

yes we we did we did uncover that. Yes. >> What happened after that? >> Well um not relatedly. Mcrist got fired. So um he did Oh his other question by. the way that I failed to mention was is. the Taliban making its money off of the. narcotics trade? Is that is that like a. key part of of uh their finance? And we. did find that it was a lot less than. everyone thought that this extortion. racket was really that was the key uh.

method of how the Taliban was raising. its money. And um but he did it did give. him this whole analysis and like link. chart that the team did really gave him. a lot of insight into like where the the. key narcotics trafficking nodes were. And so those were included in this Mara. operation. Um it was part of it. So to. disrupt Taliban financing, that was part.

of the end goal of the that operation. >> How did they I mean, how did they how. did they act when you got the. information to him? >> I mean, I was in the room when he was. briefed on it and he was shocked. >> Did they take action? >> Yeah. He um so in addition to this, you. know, kinetic targeting, there was also. like he put his um his logistics chief, the CJ4,

um he put him like in charge of. doing this whole, you know, deep dive. into the subcontractors and how do we. how do we do a better job of vetting and. and all that. And um I'm sure like I. helped him with it for a bit, but then. Mcrist got fired and I went home and um. I know when Petraeus came on board, he. he brought General McMaster who stood up. like a very public anti-corruption.

task force. That was because of what we. had found. Um, but I will say that when. uh and I'm grateful to him when Mcrist. got fired, General Flynn kind of took me. aside and he and he was like, "You. should go home now." Um, and uh he was. like, "Nothing good's going to happen. now. You should just just get out of. here. Just go home." Um and I heard. later that you know it wasn't pleasant.

for the all the Mcrist rem you know. those who remained uh I think Petraeus. had a not good view of of that team and. um made sure everyone knew it. So I was. kind of grateful that I got rescued from. that. But I was I was so like I just. felt when when Mcrist got fired I was. like well it's over you know it's over.

I mean I knew Petraeus from Iraq days. and I was like. what what are we going to do in this. country anymore? Like it's the only to. me the only hope was Mc Crystal because. he also was dealing with Pakistan and. you can't you there was no hope in. really changing anything in Afghanistan. without addressing the real problem um. which it seemed to me was Pakistan. So uh the and the ISI specifically. So.

anyway, I um I was pretty. I was I never at that time would have. imagined that we would have been there. another 10 years after that. And we. never really addressed any of those. problems. And we we kept paying like in. a way secondarily the Taliban who kept. killing us 10 years after that. And we. knew this is the thing that it astounds. me and I'm like we still have no. accountability. Like all these people.

knew and did nothing. Oh man, every time I dive into this I. just start getting more and more angry. I mean, especially we were just talking. offline about the 40 to87 million in. cash that we would send Taliban every. single week. Thank god Tim Burchett got. it passed through the House. >> Thank God. >> And uh Senator Sheih he's supposed to be. introducing it to the Senate. Hopefully. that happens soon. But.

oh man, I just. I don't even know what to think anymore. It's hard to know what to think because. at a certain point you you have to ask. like. this is all like too many coincidences. of us helping our sworn enemy. Like are. we are we really. >> are we trying to do that? >> Do you think it was that's actually what.

I was just going to ask. >> Not then. Were we trying to prolong the. war? I mean, what. what was that? >> I wonder too. I wonder too. I don't I. wish I had answers. I don't. But you have to ask yourself when you. see what I saw. and everything just kept going. Like it. was like nothing. What else do you need to know? I mean, I.

just putting things together because. this is all in the 2009 time frame, you. know? >> Yeah. >> Slash the roe, >> cut our troops legs out from under them, continue to finance them. I mean, just. then everything that happens later, I. mean, and this was Obama years. And so Obama. um you know was very publicly like try. you know should should we surge or. should we just you know leave and this.

was very public and and obviously. decided. wanted the public to know that he. decided that he was going to surge. Um, and this the whole catastrophic. withdrawal under Biden was Biden being. like, you know, finally getting his he. always wanted uh us to pull out. This. was again the narrative. He had always. wanted us to pull out and now that he. was president it was going to happen and.

regardless of. you know we had all the things that. happened that could have been prevented. didn't matter. we're out and that's a. victory because that's what he had. always wanted. But yeah, that's that's. been the whole narrative that that we. that's been provided to us. I don't I don't have any more insight. than that. I have the same questions. that you do. >> Let's move into the Swift program. What.

was the Swift program? Well, uh, Swift is a um. Swift is a uh it's a way to move to move. money to move funds and and banks use it. today all the time. Um, you're basically. making uh electronically transferring. funds from one bank to another. Um, and. it's, you know, inter it's an. international system that's used by many. many countries. Um,

this was a a very highly classified. program. uh for many years that was part of the. Patriot Act, but part of the classified. part of the Patriot Act and um it got. blown uh in the New York Times years. ago. Um, it was very successful. um because you could track, you know, if. you knew who had which bank account.

number in which bank, you could see who. was doing what, what who was sending. what what they were sending, where they. were sending it. Um, but it was. specifically only for counterterrorism. Could not be used for anything else. And. once the program got blown, a lot of our. international partners. um especially in Europe were, you know, they have very different privacy laws in. Europe than we do in the United States.

And uh they were very upset and uh. but you know, we over the years it's. been a very successful program. Like. when I was when I was at Treasury. managing this program, we were able to I. don't know if you remember this um. horrible child killer in Norway. This. guy Andrew Brivik who just like went to. just psycho, you know, went to an island.

of like a kid summer camp. >> Oh, I do remember that. >> Just like murdered all these kids. >> I do remember that. And um there was a. big question about like is this a lone. wolf guy or like what's his motivation? Um and we were able to look at his bank. accounts and tell the Norwegians for. sure this man was saved money for 10. years to be able to fund this operation. >> Um there was no one else involved. It. was just him. Um but so that program is.

is like again purely for. counterterrorism purposes very. misunderstood. Um. but you know um but. >> how was it misunderstood? >> Well a lot of a a lot of because it was. secret and then it got blown and like. it's not like our it's not like our. government is going to come out and. explain everything that it was doing. Um, I think people assign kind of their. own.

uh. they make up stories and obviously a lot. of people are are are. like to think of the United States as. kind of this big bad entity and. sometimes I feel I feel the same but no. the the. >> sometimes I feel the same. Sometimes I. wonder. No, but but the reality is, you. know, in in Europe in particular if like. if you're European and you you've never. been here, you don't really understand. America, you know, you just read the.

news, you could think that like someone. accused us, for example, uh from a. European government of like trying to. track who is gay in Europe. And I'm. like, I can promise you, first of all, when you fill out your form to open a. bank account, that's not part of it. So. that information doesn't exist, number. one, tied to a bank account, and two, like this is a for counterterrorism. purposes only. And the the company.

um the Swift the company um you know has. very strict controls over that and they. actually oversee a lot of that as well. to make sure that every request is for. meets a meets a threshold. >> How does it how does it work? Um, I. don't know how much I'm allowed to go. into that anymore, but um, but I think. that it's it's very safe to say there's. a a very um formal coordination process. where there multiple layers of approval.

and oversight. Um, and again, you can't. you can't uh introduce other targets. that don't relate that don't have a. direct connection to counterterrorism. But when you see new entities designated. as terrorists, for example, the cartels, >> that's one of the authorities that is. now available.

>> Interesting. So basically. you use the Swift code, correct? >> And you you can breach into any bank. account, see where money's coming, where. it's going to. Is that it? Is that Am I. on here? >> It's way more specific than that. Like. you basically, if you have a target, um, you need to figure out what bank. account they're attached to. >> Mhm. and then you do you request any.

swift trans transactions from that bank. account and then you see what comes up. >> Okay? >> So you can't just say like I want to. look at all transactions. from Iraq to Iran or vice versa. No, you. have to you have and then and you have. to write a whole and and again my. information is very very old now. This. is many many years ago that I was doing. this, but you had to write a whole. justification for like why. Um, and you. had to include, you know, reporting as.

part of your justification. This is who. this person is. This is what their bank. account is. Here's why I know this. This. is why they're a terrorist. Here's the. here's the justification for that. I'm. trying to find out this. This is why I'm. trying to find this out. Do you have. anything? >> Gotcha. >> It's very very controlled. >> You know, while we're on the the subject. of Afghanistan, I' I've got a a Patreon.

It's a subscription account and uh we've. turned it into quite the community here. And one of the things I do is I offer. them the opportunity to ask each and. every guest a question. And so this is from Jim Harmon. Why does. it appear that our government intel. agencies appear to ignore obvious. threats to national security? For. instance, the fact that Hamza Bin Laden. is alive is disputed by officials. So, we wanted to go into this and um you.

know, we were we were talking off camera. about my friend Sarah Adams who who says. that Hanza bin Laden is still alive, that he is the leader. he's basically. over all of these terrorist. organizations which have united. Then. she went on to say that that the the I. believe it was the UK government um also. reported uh through their intelligencies. that that he was alive. Now I know you. you have a different opinion on this.

Yes, I. I uh. Hamza Bin Laden actual is not alive. He. is dead. However, I do not dispute the. fact that someone calling himself Hamza. bin Laden, perhaps even a a bin Laden. cousin, >> is doing all of that. But Hamza actual.

is is not alive. How do you know that he. is dead? >> Um because I have asked multiple people. who would know that I trust and they. have told me unequivocally he is dead. >> Do they tell you where he was killed? >> Yes. And I don't remember right now. I. know that's a copout, but it's real. >> When was he killed? >> Uh. man, 2019. Is that right? Why do you. think the UK government is is saying. that he's alive?

>> I mean, there is clearly someone calling. himself Hamza Bin Laden that is like. organizing a lot of bad stuff. Um, and I. don't I don't dispute that. I just think. like do you remember in that that the. Princess Bride the dredge pirate Roberts. that there were like multiple when one. guy would retire there'd be another guy. that came up and now he was the dredge. pirate Roberts and you're just kind of. like living off of that infamy that name.

is so powerful and is a brand in and of. itself. >> and and and therefore. uh someone's using it to rally you know. rally the terrorist troops. But no, I I. I will say like he's dead. Um but yes, there there are serious concerns about a. person calling himself Hamza bin Laden. who's organizing some some very.

problematic and troubling things. >> Oh, that's an interesting twist. That. seems like a very realistic scenario. >> I mean, both things could be right. >> Mhm. Mhm. How do you think the Afghan. withdrawal went? >> Uh, not well. Not well. Uh, it was a it. was a catastrophe and we are still. living with the repercussions of that. today. Very much so. Um,

I uh I got pulled into one of these kind. of civilian. groups like veterans and former DoD. civilians and um and I found out later. also active duty um folks um in special. operations who were coordinating with us. when they were not supposed to be. But. God bless them. Um, you know, I someone. reached out to me right when things.

started to get chaotic and uh a lawyer. friend of mine and she had a client who. was just trying to, you know, trying to. get into the airport, trying to get out. Could I help? So, I I I don't even. remember who I reached out to, someone. and uh someone I thought might know. something and they added me to this. signal chat group that took over my life. for weeks. And I know a lot of people. had those kind of experiences where.

um all of a sudden I just dropped. everything that I was doing. And I do I. do know people and I have my own network. and actually was able to help a couple. of families that um DIA families. actually um Afghans that were working. for DIA that had worked for DIA for a. long time and um and were being. abandoned. and. uh amazingly because of the people on.

the ground and their what they their. heroic efforts their willingness to work. with us. Uh they saved a lot of lives. >> So, but the things even sitting in my. living room, you know, on signal, just. being part of this, I mean, it was so. weird because you do I did feel like I. was there sometimes. There was one one. one family we were trying to help. I I. want to be careful because I don't know. what happened to them, but they didn't.

make it out. I know that. Uh it was a. father and some kids and um they were. you know it was so hot those days and. people were waiting outside for days and. days like passing out, babies dying. Um. and this there was this particular man. who had worked for us and was trying to. get out with his kids and um. there was someone on the wall like a PJ. on the wall looking for him and we had.

already you know given everybody one you. say this he'll say this you know hold up. he had a sign that had a word on it. He. was holding up the sign and and um he. was right outside. They were right. outside of Abby Gate and uh I have a. picture of the man and his two beautiful. children uh right before the explosion. happened and and um we found out later. one of the one of the boys was killed.

Um. >> Oh man. >> And uh that wrecked me. That wrecked me. like for a while. Um just looking at that little boy's. face, you know, and and like it was so. close. They were so close. Um, and we. couldn't get anyone to open the gates. You know, there were all these were. like, "Oh, send them to the black gate. Oh, send them to this gate." And they. would get there and there was no gate. open. There was no one there to open the. gate. Um, it was so much chaos. And um,

and then the civilians, there were. Americans trying to get out. They were. also being given this bad information. No one was people were supposed to help. them and they they weren't. So they were. getting information from, you know, people in my group and um. they were getting beaten by the Taliban. um badly. They were getting their US. like blue passports taken from them. And. um you know I was so I thought your.

interview of Sergeant Tyler Vargas. Andrews was so powerful and I want to. thank you for for that and to thank him. because um there are so many of us who. were like at home that day just trying. to trying to help and that feeling when. that explosion went off when that guy. clocked himself off and. 13 Marine or 13 service members like it. breaks my heart to this Hey, you know, I. had the opportunity to meet some of the. family members and um I can't imagine,

you know, I have again my two my my two. brothers served in the Marine Corps and. they're but for the grace of God like I. just uh it was so point it was so. unnecessary. That's how we that was how. we left and that's how the world saw us. leave after 20 years of blood and. treasure. And um and so it also was was. such an encouragement to like global. jihadists,

>> jihadis globally like we lost the giwa. and they they know it and we just. haven't admitted it to ourselves. That's. the accountability that we still need. Uh we need to be able to say that we. lost and we need to understand why. Um. but the. it's just like there's still I think in. the early like the year or two after the. withdrawal there were still some people.

who were you know a lot of us know a lot. of Afghans um who like really competent. um really competent fighters who served. in the Afghan military like either the. soft units or like the zero units. I. mean, they're just incredibly competent. and some of them. um really wanted to organize and go. back. I mean, I don't really see that. happening anymore. And especially when.

our own relationship with the Taliban is. is uh is sort of unclear, but I just. want to point out that we gave up Bram. Like we could have pulled out and kept. Bram but Bram we need for China and. China knows it and for China to have. people talk about China and Afghanistan. like they get control over all these. rare earth minerals and stuff. That's. not the biggest problem. The biggest.

problem is the geography and how are we. look at a map like how are we going to. do this when we don't have Bram Bram was. would be a great Bram would have been. the the place and um it just it just. again makes no sense. It makes no sense. Um and and all of the afteraction stuff. where like the people at the embassy. were drunk and not wanting to leave. I. don't know if you saw that there was a.

one of the um interviews that was done. later. One of our I think one of our service. members was like just knocking on doors. at the embassy at the end just like. making sure everyone was evacuating to H. Kaya and um someone opened the door. It's an account. It's in you can find it. online. someone opened their door and. was like wasted off their ass. Like. this was okay, you know, and and uh when.

you learn more about kind of the the who. had who was in control or who was in. charge of that effort, it was the State. Department. It was the civilians, not. the military. So anyway, I have a lot of questions. there's a lot of blame to go around and. um you know I I'm complaining about a. lot. I. someone someone said to me a while ago.

um the response to one of the one of. these like op-eds that I wrote was like. well what about you you know what about. your own involvement in this stuff. you know I I think we can all stand to. to look at what we were part of and what. we were uh what our activities were and. I think accountability should be spread. far and wide um and I'm I'm not afraid. of it. But at the same time, like I I.

don't I wasn't part of that. What I do. know is at the end of the Trump admin. the first term uh the first Trump. administration, we were in a very different place and we. were not Trump did not order withdrawal. Trump was comfortable with a small force. there um that was really doing like. advise and assist and we were doing. intel support for the Afghan special. operations units who were extremely. capable and were conducting operations.

very successfully. So if we had just, you know, part of me feels if we had. just continued that, I mean, if you look. at when was the last casualty prior to. Abby Gate, it was like a couple years. Um, cuz we weren't doing what we were. doing before. We were transitioning. Um, so yeah, the whole thing is just like, you know, mental health crisis really. I. mean, there's just so many I just, man,

it it just seemed like no thought at all. went into that. I mean, we have. all these jihadist groups that want to. kill us. We have zero intelligence on. the ground over there anymore. We gave. up a strategic air base, which not only. for China, but also Iran, you know, because they did use or or or still do, you know, use terrorist organizations as. proxies. the rare minerals. I mean, the fact that.

we abandoned another ally or I guess I. can't say it ally, but abandoned another. just like Vietnam. We just we we. >> train them up. We're turning it over. They fought alongside us for what 20 21. years? >> 21 years. >> And then we're just mic drop. We're out. Done. That's it. I mean, >> and. >> what. >> to add insult to injury, we trucked all. these random Afghans here, some of whom.

turned out to be like watch listed, >> and people who actually. like earned the right to be here, who. worked with us, worked for us, were. abandoned. >> Mhm. >> And we have we still have a lot of. people here that we don't even know who. they are. How do you think that should have gone? >> They knew, this is where I start to get, you know,

they knew months in advance that they. were going to leave. They knew they our. government. They knew that we were going. to leave through Haya and not through. Bram. So in that moment, like they knew. we weren't going to bring anyone out. except for us. you know, they they had. they never had any intention of rescuing. of like saving our partners. Um, even though they said they did. I mean, those factors like look at the H. Kai is.

in the middle of the city, you know, and. in order to have airlifts for the number. of people who needed to. be brought out and then also the like. the the immigration kind of requirements. like all of the paperwork and stuff and. vetting and all that should have begun. months and months and months before. The. fact that they didn't do that meant that. they never they were never going to save. anybody. Um, and no one ever I mean.

there were lies during the entire. 6 months from when they announced the. withdrawal to when it happened. Just lie. after lie. Um, and yeah, that's just no. one's you can point it out and it. doesn't matter. Doesn't change a thing. >> Sim raging. >> Yes. you know, back to the the Swift. thing, were you able I mean, was that.

instrumental in in in changing how we. target these guys? And. >> in some cases, uh, by the time I was working on it, it. had already been it had already been. blown. So, I think the enemy had like. they'd already changed their TTPs a lot. But um you know for example. bank accounts are one were one way to. move money but they have this whole.

underground system. It's not underground. but we don't it's not part of our. western culture called hala where um. it's a. value transfer system. It's like the. easiest way to explain it. And um like. you can um you can go to. a hala is not a not a bank and not even. necessarily a a it's not a licensed. financial institution in many countries. But if you you can go to.

like a corner store somewhere and the. guy's a hala a haladar and you can say, "Well, I want to send, you know, $5,000. to. my boy in Islamabad." So that guy will. call up like some halala in Islamabad. and they basically arrange between the. two of them cuz I I pay the guy here. $5,000. They arrange between the two of.

them how the money is going to be. transferred. But again, it's not. necessarily money. It can be carpets. It. can be gemstones. It can be other items. of value. and um and then my buddy in. Islamabad will go to the place in. Islamabad and get $5,000. So you can't track that through like the. formal financial system. Um. >> so it's like a western union of. commodities. >> Yes. Yes.

Um exactly. So that's that's been a. challenge for the intelligence community. for many years and law enforcement um to. try to understand uh the Hala network, global Hala network, how it works. Um I. was I was working in banking in UAE for. several years and I worked for a big. bank. Um and we had a relationship with. several halas that were like banks. They.

were huge and they had their own um they. had their own uh compliance people that. were working on doing stuff that bankers. all know KYC know your customer kind of. trying to understand like oh you're this. is your name your name it does not come. up on any watch list this is your. address your address doesn't come up on. on any as any like known bad person on. the OFAC list um I mean there's a whole.

process that's very involved. But the. bottom line is uh some of these hoalas. are very big and uh they're they're used. like they're across the Middle East in. the Islamic world. So they're used very. in places where banks don't really. operate because for a variety of. reasons. Um, and from a from an. enforcement perspective, it's it's a. challenge to figure out like, well,

these guys are clearly running like bad. money through their hoala, but that's. also the only way that this entire. region, you know, of this country can. can get access to money. So, um, >> interesting. I did not know that. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. Well, Simone, let's take let's take a. quick break and when we come back, we'll. get into DIA. >> Great. >> Want more from the Sha Ryan Show? Join.

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All right, Simone, we're back from the. break. We're going to move into your. career over at Defense Intelligence. Agency, DIA. So, how did you how did you. fall into that? >> Uh, well, I um I was I moved over there. Uh. basically General Flynn became the uh. the director uh of DIA and uh I went. over there with him. I had been at.

Treasury uh obviously before that in the. on the intel side, the office of. intelligence and analysis and um General. Flynn was standing up. A lot of. commanders have their kind of director's. advisory group or whatever they call it. Um, and so he was standing his up and. um, I had the opportunity to go and be. part of that. So, uh, yeah. So, I I. that's that's how I got over to to DIA.

>> Right on. What What kind of stuff were. you doing? Well, his big push was when he got over. there was the reorganization of DIA, but. uh I think it's it's not a surprise uh. to anyone who knew him to say that he. was like on a kind of revenge tour after. his experience in Afghanistan. He wrote. Fixing Intel talking about how the. intelligence assessments that were being. produced or the information that was.

being collected even um and shared was. not helpful to the to people on the. battlefield that um you know it was uh. they weren't collecting things that we. needed to fight the war and to win the. war and um and he he wrote this very. controversial. I mean, everyone agreed. with it, but the way that it was. released, I think Gates uh Secretary.

Gates, he was the SEC defe at the time, and others were critical of how it was. released. Um i.e. it was released. publicly through a think tank. Um. and uh but that was that was how General. Flynn operated. Uh, so he didn't really. care. I think he wanted to just get it. to the widest audience possible because. he wanted to make sure that people. understood uh how broken it was. There.

was really like he could only jump up. and down for so long yelling about the. same problem. So, um, you know, people. have a variety of opinions on that and, uh, I don't know if it was the right. thing to do or not, but it certainly got. a lot of attention and, uh, it did get. things to change. So when he came back. and took over DIA, um he wanted to move a lot of people out. who had kind of stood in his way, uh and. was and were really were not helpful in.

prosecuting the war. Um, so there were. these announcements that would come out. pretty regularly about like senior DIA. employees who are like moving to. different jobs and other agencies kind. of thing like oh they're going to be the. liaison at DHS and um things like that. And it was um I mean he was moving.

people out that he did not view as kind. of teammates, people who were going to. be helpful in what he wanted to do with. DIA. So so there was a lot of kind of. like rearranging personnel stuff. Um but. the really big effort during that time. was. reorganizing the agency and putting the. collectors and the analysts together. um in one so like the.

collection operations for let's say. Russia and the analysts for Russia were. not like they didn't even know each. other they were in different parts of of. bowling they were different parts of the. world sometimes and they they weren't. working together in a coordinated way. >> so he reorganized EIA to have like. Russia house, to have like China house.

Um and so. the you know the Americas was another. one where you have again the people. working together so that they can. coordinate effectively. Um so collectors. are actually you know going after. intelligence that that is. that the analysts really need to answer. the key question. So I mean for for. people who don't know it's the.

you know our senior leadership and our. government puts out the collection. priorities. They put out like here are. the main things that we want to know and. then the intelligence community kind of. does an assessment of like well what. what can we answer and what where are. the gaps? And the gaps are really what. the intelligence collectors you know go. after. and um. they need to be working closely with the. analysts to who are going to really fill.

those gaps with that information and. that intelligence. So it was pretty. revolutionary at the time. No one had. ever thought about it like that before. CIA reorganized itself in a similar. manner not long after that. Um, so I. think it was clearly a great idea. and um, and so but to be part of that, you know, DIA is kind of notoriously. bureaucratic. and uh, a lot of people have a lot of. bad things to say about DIA and um, but.

I worked with a lot of people who spent. a long time deployed and who really are. patriots and uh, you know, put. everything out there like left it all on. the field did their best. So, um. I was there for pretty not for that. long, like two years. Um but I I learned. a lot during my time there. I worked. with some great analysts. Um I finished.

out my time. So I did I did that was. working on the reorg for a while uh. under under General Flynn and then I. moved to um running a small. uh like a small unit of analysts really. We were focused on something that no one. at the time cared about at all. Transnational organized crime um in the. Americas um cartels and no one paid. attention to us. No one cared. had a.

great group of analysts who knew a lot. about the subject matter and. >> nobody paid any attention to that or. cared. >> No, no, not at that time. >> No, not at that time. I mean, it was. like checking the box, you know, but we. were all focused, everyone was focused. on uh on the Middle East and we had I. was there. Thi this is really what led. me to to quit government completely was. um Syria the Obama's Syria red line. So.

first I was after all my experiences. Iraq Afghanistan I was I was pretty. disgusted by everything but you know I. still wanted to serve and I I loved what. I was doing like on a micro level. I. loved the people I got to work with. I. thought we were working on important. things. Um the fact that I had this kind. of financial intelligence background um. made me a little bit unusual which I.

like to kind of niche. Uh but you know I. remember I mean I don't think I'll ever. forget it. Obama gave that famous speech. about red lines and Assad not you know. if Assad uses chemical weapons against. his own people like that's a red line. and we will act. So I think it was on a Friday when Assad. for the first time used chemical weapons. against the Syrian people. He did it. many many times after. But the first was.

I think on a Friday because we all. showed up to work on Saturday. Like no. one no one said, you know, come in. But. we just showed up because that's you. know you know how it is. That's like. what you do. Okay, it's going to kick. off. We'll just be here to be helpful. And we sat there for hours and finally. one of the bosses came out of his office. and was like, "Y'all should just go. home. Nothing's going to happen." And I. really had a like a crisis.

uh at that time and just. realized I was I was like nearing 40. and I just thought, "What am I doing. with my life?" You know, I've been so. focused. It wasn't just a job for me. It. was like a life. It was my life. >> And um I just felt like what am I doing? I don't know what what am I doing this. for? This is crazy. Uh and I.

I I just I knew I had to leave. I knew. uh I started paying attention to I don't. know if they still do this but at the. time DIA would have these like email. announcements when someone dies and they. tell you like so and so passed away. People were I don't know if this is true. but it seemed like people were dying at. their desks and I was like no way no.

way. >> What do you mean people were dying at. their desks? Like you know how it is in. in the bureaucracy where people just. like they're going to hang on till. retirement no matter what. Like got to. get those last years in before you hit. retirement. Like that's such a thing. So. you get all your benefits. >> People were dying at their desks waiting. to hit that retire. It's not funny but. it's not funny but it's real. And um. when I I remember telling people that I. was out, I was leaving and no one could.

believe it cuz I had I had all my. tickets, you know, I had like, you know, polygraphs and everything. I had it all. And um and they're like, you know, your. clearance is worth over $200,000. And. I'm like, there's more to life. There's. just more to life. I I'm not going to do. this anymore. So, um yeah, that was. >> So you you didn't believe in the mission. anymore. and your values weren't aligned with. what was happening. >> there. What was the mission, Sean?

>> You're asking the wrong person that. I'm still trying to figure that one out. >> I mean, I didn't see it. I didn't see. it. And um you know I just felt I've given. years of my life to this and you know I. wasn't married, didn't have kids and I. was like there's more to life. So, uh, yeah. So, I had I had no job to go to, but I just, uh, I did have they were.

offering early outs, you know, they. called it Vera Visa. Basically, the they. pay you a lump sum for your retirement. and that's it. You're done. And the and. your billet it is gone. So, I was. expensive by that time. I was like a. GS15. step five which in the DC area is a lot. of money relatively for the government. it was like a hundred something like 100. I don't remember maybe in the 190s um.

yeah so I just uh but the VSIP was like. um a lump sum payment. um and I just after tax took the money. and left. I went to Italy. Um, I had a. friend that I had reconnected with. One. of my brothers got married in Italy and. I had reconnected with this friend of. mine there and he he was a friend from. from business school days. I went to.

business school in Milan and um he had. this like luxury villa on the Amalfi. coast and uh he's like, "You want to. help me?" And uh and I just thought, I. mean, are you serious? Because I. seriously I Yes, I would. Um so I ended. up doing that. I just went I went to. Sarrento, Italy, and uh it was it's. funny in retrospect, but it was really. what I needed. And I just helped him run.

his like luxury villa. We started this. boat tour company where we would take. like guests to Capri on day trips and I. was like the first maid on the boat and. uh worked for tips. It was it was. awesome. >> Quite the change, huh? >> I needed it. Yeah. Need like swim in the. ocean every day, be outside the skiff, just be experienced life, you know what. I mean? >> Mhm. >> So, it was good. uh until I ran out of. money um around later in the year and I.

got um I had to had to actually go back. to a real job in real life. Um but yeah, it was it was amazing and um I think in. retrospect seeing how a lot of my. friends kind of flame have flamed out um. when when they've had the kind of. similar realization that I had. Uh, >> were a lot of people leaving. like you. >> in different ways? Yeah, in different. ways. >> What were the discussions like?

I mean, when I was telling my friends in the. intelligence community that I was. leaving or and why, I mean, maybe people I worked with. didn't fully like on my team didn't. understand, but my friends understood. 100%. And some of them had already left. Um, yeah. So, people people got it. I mean.

if you look back now at. our like on the analytic side the. analysts. like senior analysts that we have uh who. served in GWAT very very few almost. everyone's got everyone's gone like. there was on Iraq specifically everyone. cleared out everyone. >> man. >> there's no but how sad is that too. because there's very very limited. institutional memory of so many things.

things that are important for the. institution to remember. that's you know one of the big one of. the big challenges I think and sure the. army did you know Iraq like the. afteraction kind of deep dive into Iraq. what went wrong and I I've heard there's. one on Afghanistan but it's classified. um. >> go figure. >> uh but like. that's still it's still you know that's.

great for the army but who's going to. it's so specific to the military and um. there's a lot more to it than that I. mean there have been so many people have. written books and and they've covered. different different sides of this and. but um yeah no the the basic fact is. the people who are like mentally healthy. enough um and I I feel like I was. borderline at that point. I don't I. don't I was not mentally healthy at that.

point. I knew it enough to not even try. to find another job just to like clear. my head, you know, and and um try to. just get myself back a little bit. And. then um also the reality was I was doing. really well. I would have advanced to an. SAS, but I had to do another deployment. probably to Djibouti and I just had. zero. I was like, I'm going to burn my. sleeping bag. I am not doing that again.

It was done. >> I'm going to burn my sleeping bag. >> I was that thing smelled so bad. But it. was it was just time, you know. It was. just enough. It was enough. You know, you and I both know people who. that's all they can do now with their. lives. They can only exist in in places. and situations like that and they can't. live in the normal world. And I I kind. of recognized that I was I was like. slapping up against that and I didn't.

want to become that. So, and um and and. talking to other people that I had. served with, everyone kind of understood. that because the adrenaline is real and. the the feeling that you're working on. something important and you're, you. know, >> the mission and all that. And so, >> it had to get really bad for me to. understand. uh that I had to just pull the rip cord. and save myself. And and that's why I.

did. And where did you go from Italy? >> Uh, I went to the UAE. Uh, and I I got a. job working for a big bank that had. gotten itself in trouble violating Iran. sanctions. And um, it was um I mean they egregiously. violated Iran sanctions. So. >> they created a manual for their clients. on how to like hide. details about transactions like.

>> Holy. >> Yeah. Um. >> and you were working for that bank. >> uh afterwards. So I guess they forgot. about the NSA. can like find that sort of thing and. and so so um they got in they got in. very serious trouble uh with OFAC and. the DOJ. So they they had to pay over a. billion dollars in fines. they almost. lost uh their US dollar access and they.

had to create a whole new compliance. program um focused on our laws, the bank. secrecy act. Um and so how to like the. controls around. US dollars, US dollar transactions. Um. and so. my job I covered Africa, Middle East and. Pakistan from Dubai. I was based in. Dubai and um so I I was like all over. the region for years doing my job which.

was basically conducting investigations. um doing train like training thousands. and thousands of bank employees and then. interacting a lot with our regulators as. well just kind of like letting them know. what was going on answering questions. stuff like that. >> So you were living in Dubai? >> Yeah. >> Okay. How was that? We just went there. about a month ago. I think is. I've been there several times. >> Yeah. >> All the It's like all expats.

>> It is. It is. Did you What did you. think? Did you like it? >> I love it there. >> Yeah. >> I think the architecture is amazing. It's It's I think it's one of the most. impressive cities in the world. Um I. don't know what I would do there if I. lived there other than shop. But uh. because they got some great shopping. there. >> They do. They do. But yeah, what's it like living there? >> I mean, I loved it. It It was I was on. the road a lot. So, I can see what.

you're saying, but um but I like I just. I loved it. I just thought the people. were so nice. I made a lot of friends. Um it was beautiful. It's safe. Um. and it's just incredibly impressive. The. first time that I was there was like. early days, like maybe 2004. >> Oh, okay. >> And so to see what it became so quick.

quickly, what they built there, what. they made, it's just really it's it's. like got a vibe, you know, it's and it's. um now that I'm older, you know, I kind. of like Abu Dhabi. It's a little more. chill. Um you know, I'm like a in in bed. at 9:00 person now. So Dubai's can be a. lot, but it's it's amazing. It truly is. amazing. And um I I really enjoyed my. time there. Um I my job was super.

interesting, too. I mean, I got to do we. were in Zimbabwe when the Mugab regime. was falling. Like we were there, myself. and some of my colleagues from New York. City because we at the time we were the. only bank that were that was still still. had access to US dollars. But because. Muga the Mugab regime was sanctioned by. the by OFAC by the Treasury Department, we had to like wall off wall them off.

from any US dollar anything. So we were. just anyway we were there during like. kind of a crazy time for the country and. um I had never been there before and so. it was it was really interesting. we. found out. I think the secret police. were like on the two floors above us in. our hotel and um yeah, it was just um. thank God, you know, nothing bad. happened to anybody, but it definitely. could have. It was you could tell it was.

one of those situations where things. could pop off in a second. Um and I was. the only one that had my sort of. background there. So, uh, I brought a. ton of cash with me also because I I. knew I I saw that, you know, there were. lines for the ATMs and like you can't. rely on an ATM in a situation like that. >> So, I brought a significant amount of. cash and it turned out that all my all. my banker colleagues from New York City. had like zero cash. So,

>> um, but um, >> how do you wall how do you wall a bank. off from US dollars? Um well, you know, there's it's all. electronic. Um but. so the bank itself wasn't obviously our. bank was not walled off, but like a. certain set of of bank customers who. could have access to other uh. denomination, not denominations, but. other currencies uh but just not US.

dollars. So you can mark like it's it's. you know inside the system. I haven't. been in in a bank system in a long time. but you can say like this account is for. this currency and that currency and this. account is for that currency and that. currency and then these accounts are US. dollar accounts. >> Gotcha. So you can for example have. multiple accounts in the same bank for. different currencies or one account that.

has multiple currencies. >> Interesting. And then. you get appointed to the Pentagon. >> Yes. >> In 2019. >> Yes. >> How did that happen? >> Uh well, General Flynn called me. Um, and you know, we had been in touch since. I since I left. I mean, kind of the big. communication that he and I had had was. when I was in Italy, I got contacted by.

a reporter friend, one of the few, um, who called me to to tell me that Flynn. was going to Russia and, uh, going to. this RT dinner and I should talk to him. about that because it was a bad idea. And uh and I was like, "No, he's not. There's no way he's doing that." Like, "Shut up.". Um yeah, he did that. And I did call him. and or text him. I don't remember. anymore. And he um he told me that it.

was, "Thank you very much for your. concern. I know what I'm doing. It's all. under control.". So, um, and I I really pleaded with him. and I just said, you know, you're. you're a retire. You know, I know you're. probably excited to you're free and you. can do what you want, but like you're a. retired three star. Like, you still have. those three stars like mean something. And like, by the way, don't f all the.

rest of us that, you know, had in some. way like were tied to you. I mean, I. worked for him for like 5 years um in. different capacities. So, um I was kind. of like trying to save myself at the. same time, but um yeah, he did him. And. uh and he he did that and uh but anyway, fast forward, he put me up for an. assistant secretary job at Treasury at. the time. He here's what happened. He. called me. I was in Dubai and he's like,

"I need you like. what jobs do you want? And uh in the. past I'd been like you know salute like. yes sir but this time the way that. banking you know salaries and stuff work. is you get your salary payment but then. you get a bonus and the bonus if you're. lucky is like a lot of money and because. I was living overseas. you know tax your taxes aren't like.

taken out automatically like they are. here. So, my bonus was going to pay for. all my taxes. Um, and the bonus is paid. out in March. So, the election was in. November and um so I was like, can I can I come a little later this. time? Like, I'm not going to be there. day one, thank God. And um and so that's. what happened. Um, so the Treasury job went away because.

Flynn went away and all the Treasury. deciding people were like I I basically. was um. you know I was I was like stray. kind of stray voltage on the Flynn. thing. Um which was fine which was fine. Um so I I just continued on doing what I. was doing. About a year later, I got this. opportunity uh at the Pentagon. I guess. my name was kind of still on lists,

still my resume was still in there. So, I got contacted by the um the DoD. liaison to the White House. and. he said this opportunity they were. looking for someone for the office where. I had started um back in so in ASD Solic. that they needed a deputy like under the. dazzy to run that special operations and. combating terrorism. So I thought how cool. Um and I didn't.

you know I had been overseas during the. whole election so I didn't really I. didn't know anything really about Trump. Um, I I got my information from o, you know, overseas news and I just assumed that. Hillary would win. And when she didn't. win, I was like, whoa. Um, great. Now what? Like cool. Um but yeah, so and then when.

when uh. you know everything got crazy really. fast obviously and and. >> that's a pretty damn important position. >> Yeah. Yeah. At SOC. Yeah, it was um I. got there there was um the Dazzy was. still there. He he moved on a little bit. later, but yeah, we we were in the thick. of it and it was really. I mean it was the greatest privilege of.

my life to work with that that group of. warriors. >> I mean, what kind of stuff were you. doing? So, SOC, special operations and combating. terrorism during Baghdaddy and Solommani. operations. I mean, that's like. >> Yeah. I uh all. >> impressive to the men and women who. executed those operations. You know, I I. got to see the video of Baghdaddy the.

Baghdaddy op like afterwards. You know, they had this whole they're they're. those guys are very good at, you know, their marketing marketing themselves to. the right people. So, they they made a. video of their operation. and it's. classified but um you know you get to go. down they even had really cool music and. so um that was but but being part of it. >> the planning process of losing. >> no no I wasn't I wasn't that's all the.

military the military does the planning. um you know if there's any like. approvals that. sometimes there's ancillary things that. need to be approved like they need to go. up a chain but the big thing that I had. to do with the Baghdaddy operation was. briefing Congress after the fact and. briefing um members and and um the. staffs. And what was really awesome, I. mean this was my favorite part of it, and I sound like a fan girl cuz I am,

was, you know, going, it was myself, my. joint staff counterpart, um, he was, uh, you know, a very highly decorated, uh, ranger and the director of CTC at the. agency. And, um, it was really for the. most part the two of them explaining in. detail what happened. So, um I really. can't say very much, but the the CTC guy. that this the CIA counterterrorism.

centers director. I mean, that's some. movie what happened there. And um. the first time that I learned it, just. being real, was like when I heard him. briefing uh on the hill. And and that's. right. I I I had zero need to know about. how they got to Baghdaddy and how they. figured out it was him and um how they. how they uh got eyes on and um but I.

>> Is there any of that or is that all. sealed up? >> I mean, I wouldn't want to be the one to. tell that story. Um that's someone. else's story. >> Okay. But uh but God bless them. And uh. and what was amazing, one of the many. many amazing things about that operation. was uh they had. I mean it was boots on the ground and no. one was even injured. Uh the dog uh oh.

super funny story about the dog. Okay, I. can tell that. So uh Conan Conan the. dog. Um, so there's a huge public interest in. Conan, the dog that was part of the. operation, got injured in the operation, but was fine mostly. Um, so when the. time came to give the unit an award, there was some kind of there was. something, I don't even remember what.

exactly, but there was some type of. ceremony at the White House. Um, but you. know that that unit that's a special. mission unit. So none of those guys can. be identified. So Oh, but they they. wanted to showcase the dog. So the dog. had a different handler for that event. because the real handler, you know, couldn't be on camera. And we were. watching in the office and.

he was standing the dog was the vice. president was standing next to the dog. and the vice president started moving. his hand like to pet this thing. This is. not a dog that you pet. Do you know what. I'm saying? This dog has titanium teeth. and is like uh like like. >> probably like definitely ripped like. many throats out and the vice. president's like we just watch his hand. like.

we were all like no. Um but and and not. with his regular handler either. So like. oh my god. But it all worked out the. Pence has both his hands still. But um. but that was that was uh just to be just. to be part of that in a small way. um. and help like tell this the story of. what these guys did was truly amazing. and and um you know we all knew the.

story of Kayla Mueller and what she had. endured and what he had done to her. turning it her into just not let's not. even say it but just so horrific was so. meaningful to be able to you know we. couldn't save her but we did like bring. justice for her family at the end of the. day and like I believe in that. Um I was. really proud to be even just be the. explainer at at at the like at the end.

of that explain um to our lawmakers what. happened. That was awesome. Um, and then. Solommani, well, I'll just say there. were a lot of people in the first Trump. administration who said a lot of things. about being involved and they're on a. lot of lists now. And um, you know, I uh. was not involved other than that. I was. in that office when it when it happened. And so like yeah, we knew we knew about.

it. I knew about it. my I don't think my. team did until I told them, but you know. it was it was a task force operation and. so like. you know we were. um. we were prized of it and we we had to. deal with a lot of stuff after the fact. But um I remember. this like how stressful it was with all.

the different operational details as we. were learning them. Like. there was um just so many. so many things that could have gone. wrong as usual on an operation like. that. and um to see at the end his um. hand on social media, his hand with his. famous ring um and knowing. knowing the story of Kasum Solommani and. how much American blood he had on his. hands um how many Americans he'd been.

involved in killing over the years and. of him really being like this evil. mastermind and and removing him from the. battlefield uh was really profound and I. had nothing to do with it other than to. be in that job at that time, but um was. very very proud and I just um I know a. lot of the folks who were involved and. will never take credit or talk about it. and um and they're they're amazing.

Yeah. But yeah, that also not my story. to tell but just an amazing amazing. operation. Um and and we got a bonus. too. Um, we got um, why I'm sorry I'm. blanking on his name. He also was. responsible for a lot of them. Moandis. Mahandis was in the vehicle with uh, with Solommani which wasn't we didn't. know in advance but you know that was. his day too. So.

>> who was he? >> Um, he was he was a a terrorist leader, an Iraqi. Um so you know Kasum Solommani. basically ruled Iraq after we left in. 2011. um from the the politicians really. answered to him in many ways but he also. had had stood up. So there were a lot of. different Shia militia groups. Some were. directly like goods force affiliated and. then there were some that were more like.

Iraqis Shia but still funded and aligned. with Iran and and the Kuds force and. they became the PMF the popular military. front which still to this day I believe. gets paid through the Iraqi budget. They're part of Iraq's. military force. Now, um Iraq became a. satellite of Iran um after we pulled.

out. I don't know if you know that, but. after we pulled out in 2011, that's what. happened. And that was really in large. part thanks to Kasum Solommani. Um but. he he was the mastermind from the. beginning. Um these uh EFPs, the. explosively. >> Oh, yeah. I remember those. >> born projectiles that killed a lot of. people, a lot of our people. That that. was like that was his, you know, that. was his mastermind. So, and Muandas was. one of his lieutenants in Iraq. And so.

to see them both taken out was just um. >> you know, yeah, it felt great and and. knowing everything that they had done to. to so many so many of our friends, you. know, it's just it felt good. There was. a lot of backlash over that if I. remember correctly, wasn't there? >> Yeah. People freaked out and were like, "World War II is. >> like 2020.". >> Yeah. Yeah. 20 2020. They freaked out. and said it's going to be World War II.

Um it was definitely a ballsy move and. it definitely look the president when. the president asks for options there are. a lot of options that are provided to. the president but on that particular day. that was the option that he picked and. like was everyone shocked pretty much. Yeah. Um, and because yeah, because no. one had ever.

no president before Trump would have. made a decision like that. >> How how would that have I. back then? I kind of lived in an echo. chamber, so I didn't really uh explore. any of the other ideas. How how would. that have triggered World War II? I. uh in my mind it wasn't going to um but. there are a lot of a lot of people a lot.

of people in Washington who are always. advocating for a diplomatic approach. which by the way I don't don't discount. the the. efficacy of diplomacy in the right. situation. >> but you know Iran had just killed an. American. That was the that was the. backdrop for this like right there was I. think it was an a US contractor that was. killed. >> uh on a on a base that Iran a US base in.

Iraq that Iran attacked if I if I recall. correctly drone. >> I don't know I'm sorry my memory is um. not great but but what I do remember is. an American contractor was killed and uh. President Trump was going to do. something about it because enough was. enough and you can't just get away with. killing Americans. Um, which is right, by the way. Thank you. So, he's.

presented with, you know, a list of. different options. The military puts. puts that together. At the time, it was, I guess, Millie and um, we went through a bunch of sect defs at. that time. Um, >> Esper, >> but yeah, I believe it was Esper. So. they put together these options probably. mostly Millie and uh but together. presented them to the president and um. the president decided to go with strike. on Solommani. Um not all of them by the. way are necessarily like individual you.

know take this guy out or take that guy. out. Some of them are like more. strategic. But um yeah, that was that he. want he went with that one. And um for. you know there were people in our. government who had been tracking. Solommani for years like many many. years. >> Um and the Israelis were tracking him. for many many years as well. Um and. shared a lot of really vital.

intelligence with us uh at that time. So. um they did not take they did not to my. knowledge take pl take take part in that. um strike other than perhaps uh. providing some intelligence but um but. we can see today how deeply they. penetrated into um into Iran into Kuds. force into their multiple terror. proxies. Um it's pretty extraordinary.

I'm super jealous. Um, I just like I'm I. I wish that we were, you know, that. good. Really? >> How many how many terrorist. organizations are is Iran using as. proxies? Do you have any idea? >> Well, there's a uh Iraq, I mean, you. want to call these little groups in Iraq. like one. Um, there's a couple like kind. of key ones, but they've they've. changed, merged, etc. over time. But. you've got the Houthis in Yemen, you've.

got Hezbollah in Lebanon, you've got um. Gaza, you've got um Hamas, which is. funny because not funny, but a lot of. people were saying, "Oh, well, they're. Muslim Brotherhood, i.e. Sunni, so therefore they're they. can't be uh aligned with Iran. They. can't be accepting like money and. training and stuff from Iran because. they're Sunni. Well, go back to what we.

were talking about al-Qaeda leadership. being in Iran. like those guys work with. each other and um and this was another. example where Hamas was clearly taking. uh they were clearly partners with Iran. and Iran was clearly providing funding. and training and equipment. Um, so. anyway, those are those are like the main ones,

but you know, Hezbollah is a global. organization. Obviously, they're based. in Lebanon, but you have Hezbollah. operating Venezuela. Um, they're. operating in the um in that tribal. region and and historically they have. been for a long time. And then of course. you have the Kuds force which is the. only Iranian Iranian one. Um, and. they're um, oh, and I'm sorry, Hezbollah. also operating in Syria. Um, they had a.

big operation in Syria. So, yeah, I mean, they're they've been. wreaking havoc globally for such a long. time. And, um, this is the same. organization, Hasba, killed Marines in. Beirut in the 80s. >> Um, you know, held a station chief. hostage and and tortured him and. murdered him. Um, I mean, This is the same. Anyway, all that to. say, uh, they built and Kasam Solommani.

was the mastermind behind this. They had. Israel essentially surrounded. They. built this huge terror network. But it. wasn't only for Israel because they used. it to attack us a lot. And um, there was no real successor to him. There was no there's no there was no one. else like him. So taking him out was was. quite significant. But yeah, a lot of. people a lot of people freaked out and. said it was going to be World War II and.

um and and that never happened. And. there's like very little reflection I've. seen from those people who said that. about why that didn't happen and what. does that mean about their own. assumptions and maybe I should revise. what I think because when we attacked. for recently it's like the same thing. all over. Ah, World War II. Ah, I mean, obviously. >> when we attacked Well, who? Sorry. >> For Dao, the Iranian nuclear program. when we uh when we bombed their nuclear.

uh when we bombed Foro uh that was there. was like another round of people. freaking out about World War II and. >> Well, I mean, I can so I can if you. don't mind, I'd like to share my opinion. on that. But I mean I think I think it. was just a different you know the. Solommani days the the. geopolitics was a lot different. >> and you know today we have I think I.

think a lot of people know about bricks. you know about bricks you know throwing. the US dollar off the world uh reserve. currency and we have Russia Ukraine. going on we have China we have the China. problem also China Taiwan then we have. all the going on in the Middle East. and if you look at the the bricks. alliance I mean it's Russia what is it's. it's Brazil Russia India. China South Africa and the last time I. checked there were like 22 other.

countries that had joined that and you. know and and so right there Russia China. Iran I believe is part of that you know. what I mean so China Russia Iran. it's I think the at least for me you. know When I look at it, I'm like, "Oh. shit." Like, we're not just messing with Iran right. now. We're also messing with China, with. Russia, with India, with. all these other players, you know, that.

that are also nuclear powers and and and. so it's so it's not just but but I. wasn't as tuned in back then either with. with Solommani as I am as I am now. ones. So that's my fear is it's it. maybe a little bit of a bold statement. here, but I mean it it seems like the. counter to NATO, you know what I mean? And and do what do you think? How close.

are we to World War II? Uh. I I don't know. I mean, hopefully very. far away. What do I think of bricks? I mean, I. think they're trying to make bricks a. thing. >> I don't think it's. yet. still developing. Uh. I think there are a few, if I recall. correctly, there are a couple of. countries that have actually pulled out.

of bricks. >> recently. That. >> I think they have uh which is great. So bricks is TBD. I mean, we're still. the United States. We're definitely. weaker. We're definitely in a we've been. headed in a bad direction. But when an American president says this. country cannot ever have a nuclear. weapon, >> Mhm. >> you kind of put yourself in a situation.

where the American president has to, if. they're about to get that, the country. is about to get a nuclear weapon and the. American president has said they can't. get a nuclear weapon, >> you kind of put yourself in a box. Um, and again, I'm glad he did for all the. reasons that we discussed. But BRICS. doesn't mean that any one of those. countries is going to be like, "How dare. you attack our great partner?" They. don't have a It's a economic partnership. right now. there's no real like military.

alliance behind it like there is with. article 5 in NATO where like if you. attack if anyone attacks a NATO partner. then all NATO partners are supposed to. like come to their aid which in my. opinion I don't actually know if that. would ever happen. Um. >> sorry. >> I mean do you I'm not going to disagree. with you there but do you think that. China Russia could have used let's say. that.

I'm kind of alluding the fact that Iran. would have blown up a little bigger. than, you know, that that situation. would have blown up a little bit bigger. than it would. I mean, do you think that. China and Russia would have used Iran as. a proxy to get, you know, to smuggle. weapons in there, to aid them, to train. them, to outfit them, you know, if that. would have turned into something bigger. than than what actually happened. I. mean, they're. they have proven themselves to not be.

allies. They just they're like it's a. cynical partnership. Um. >> how have they proven not to be allies? >> Well, they didn't come to their aid, did. they? um Israel was hammering them for. like months and months and um achieved. air superiority over a period of days. and like China and Russia didn't come. and help that help Iran. >> Um. >> so if they were real allies then um then.

they would then they would have come to. their aid, right? That's what an ally. does. So, I think it also showed that the fear. that a lot of people have of this like. they signed this hundred-year agreement. or something, didn't they? Uh, Iran and. China um and Russia, I believe they signed 50 years maybe. >> I don't know about that. >> They signed they signed they signed an. agreement. they made a there was like. very public um that they were going to. cooperate on all kinds of things and. they were now they're real partners but.

it's it's turned out so far to be. economic in nature and nothing else. I. mean even China so China what does China. get from a partnership with Iran? It. gets. >> a proxy against us. >> It gets a proxy against us. Yes. And but it it gets like directly it. gets energy. It gets like you know oil. um but it doesn't get the majority of it.

from Iran. I mean China has enormous. energy needs. >> It gets the majority it gets its energy. from Iran but mostly Saudi Arabia. Um so. even if they lost completely Iran's like. access to Iran's uh oil and gas they. still would be okay. Um, so that's also. a calculation for them. It's like, is it. worth it for you to go into like a. full-on kinetic situation with the.

United States right now? Like, they want. to do that at a time and place of their. choosing and like this ain't it. Um, they they have their grand plans and uh. so but they would love to see us drag. down into the Middle East again cuz that. was so beneficial for them the last. time. That's why we can never do that. again. And. >> how was it how was it beneficial for. them? >> We drained our blood and treasure. We're. very demoralized. The a lot of the infighting that were.

that is occurring here in the US is is. all beneficial to them. We're fighting. ourselves, you know, like have you. noticed that X is so crazy recently? >> Have I noticed? >> It's so crazy. But how many there's so. many foreign bot operations and they're. focused on like dividing us and uh I. wish like Elon please put like I I think. there's a way of identifying even if.

they use VPN like of identifying where. these accounts are coming from. Um, it. would be so helpful if they could start. being flagged and at least we would know. like MAGA America, American flag, American flag is actually based in. China, you know, super helpful. Um, but. anyway, I I think. it's not I'm not saying that these. countries are not in a real partnership,

>> but so far it hasn't extended to. anything. military. Um, and they're certainly not. going to risk their own positions for. Iran. Um, you know, also very helpful to. highlight the fact that Russia's air. defense system completely failed against. our stuff, which the Israelis have. >> Mhm. >> And I mean, the Israelis obviously had. their own stuff, but against like our. F-35,

we won. >> Good to know. >> I mean, I I don't know. just I'm not. even saying a a kinetic. operation, but I mean, you know, the. China sends all the precursors to. fentanyl into Mexico and that comes up. And I mean, I think all of this stuff. plays into some type of a, you know, some type of a master plan. >> I I wouldn't be surprised if it did. I. mean, China is really focused on these.

gray zone operations. Um, and they're. killing. I mean, I guess bad analogy, appropriate analogy, they're killing it. I mean, look at all of these people. folded over all over our cities. You. know, that's that's China. >> Yeah. >> And um. they're they're very effective at what. they do. And they've been partnering. with the cartels and they're not only. are they providing precursor chemicals, but they're also the moneyaunderers for. the cartels. Um,

>> how so? >> The cartels launder their money through. these Chinese gangs. >> I didn't know that. >> Yeah. And sanctioned by the CCP. >> Yep. >> And now, >> did you know I'm you you had mentioned. you were um was it DIA? You were doing. the Americas. >> Is that Did you know this all the way. back then? >> I didn't. No, I've learned that in the. last couple years. I don't know if they were doing that.

back then, honestly, but they are now. big time. >> I mean, just I don't it's hard to think. like them because we're so reactionary. and immediate and they're appear to be. very good at a longer game. >> What what they've been doing is very. deliberate and um. that's why it's important. That's. another reason why I'm I really support. what Israel's been doing against Iran.

because we need to not have to worry. about that anymore. Um, and just like. willing it away doesn't change the fact. that there is a real threat there and. they have been killing Americans and we. can't take our eye off the ball, but we. have another bigger problem. And I um I. don't disagree. I mean, I there's so. many especially like veterans of our era. are like enough. No more like no more. Middle East. I feel you, you know. Um.

and I I would like I would like for this. to be resolved and I see a way that it. can be resolved. So, uh hopefully soon. Hopefully soon. Um but yes, we need to. be as deliberate as as China is being. Um, but there's a number of things that. we still have to do that we we're not. doing yet, unfortunately. >> You know, Beck, I'm sorry I'm switching. gears. I just have all these things. popping in my head. But, you know, we. talk about with Sarah, you know, she.

says that there are at least a thousand. sleeper cells, terrorist organizations. within the US borders right now. Do you. have any insight into that or opinions. or. >> I mean, I don't know. I anything's. possible, but even in at their height, al-Qaeda and ISIS didn't have those. numbers. Um, so. I'm skeptical. >> Do you think they're strengthening. again? >> They they absolutely are. They.

absolutely are. >> Why do you think so many Giwat veterans. are are they don't want to go back to. war? They don't want to go back over. there. They're done with the Middle. East. And why do you think that is? Do. you think it's because of all the. that we just talked about with Iraq? It. was all for nothing. >> Yeah. >> In Afghanistan, which. >> was a loss? >> Yeah. >> 100%. >> I mean, I think I think that the GWAD. ven generation is just so frustrated.

with, you know, we talked about stricter. roe. We we talked about all kinds of. stuff. And then when you do that, it's. like, what? Now you want me to go over. there and do this. >> We funded the Taliban. Yeah. >> I mean, fix it. >> And apparently we still are. I don't. know. But I I think. >> now I think Rubio stopped it, but it's. temporary, but it has to get through the. Senate. So Tim Sheihy, please. >> please. >> hurry up and get that damn thing pushed. through. >> Amen. Amen. But yeah, I uh I do think.

ultimately that. um that. they're not wrong. I mean, I agree with. that sentiment that we we can't do that. again. Um, and it was. in many ways a huge waste and created. bigger problems. Um, but that doesn't. mean that we can't address.

like we can't we we now should stop. addressing any threat. you know, there's. a balance and we just can't we can't. send big armies to do to address. threats. It doesn't first of all, it. doesn't work. We're not good at it. >> And uh and second of all, um we have. bigger, you know, we have bigger fisher. fight. But again, I maybe I'm like. trying to thread the needle too much, but what I'm trying to say is um we we. I'm not isolationist. Um, I'm just I.

look at where we've come from, what. we've done, all the things that I. personally saw and learned. I agree. Um, I agree with you and with everyone else. who's who's been speaking out about um, no new wars, but I I don't think that's. what this is. I think taking like a. targeted strike is different from that. And. the fact that Israel is doing all of. this other like that's what partners are.

for like they're helping us like let's. let them finish what they're doing now. doing that in the most humanitarian way. possible is means finishing it as. quickly as possible. The more this drags. on the more people suffer the more. people die. you know, you have this uh. horrible tragic situation unfolding um. in Gaza. People are doing their best. Um.

we have, you know, US humanitarian. workers there now, which um. you know, it's it's hard to see the way. things are organized right now, how. that's going to be successful and not. like a PR disaster ultimately for us. But I I hope for the best. You know what. I mean? Like I'm rooting for us. >> It's just it's just crazy, man. I mean, here we I mean I'm all these. other terrorist organizations have ties.

to Iran. I'm sure the Taliban has ties. to Iran some one way or another as well. We're funding them. who are funded probably by Iran, but. we're bombing Iran. And it's like, dude, pick like what what are we doing. here? Like we're funding the. people that killed us for 20. years. Like you who are who are tied to Iran. and then we go and bomb our it's I I. just.

>> You said it. >> like what what the are we doing? Like what the are we doing, man? It's just it just makes no sense. Like. how how about you stop the. funding and. like. Or if not, why don't you tell the. American people why you're continuing. it? Why don't you justify it? You know, >> that's the other thing. Like, I would. love to hear from people like, "We're.

doing X. Here's why.". >> No one does that anymore. Remember when. we used to have like. >> the, you know, our leaders address the. American people and explain, "I'm doing. this. Here's why." I would love for that. to not that anyone would probably. believe it in anymore cuz we all have. like zero we have problems with. authority now given everything that's. happened to us but you know I still. think at least give it a try. I it's. hard to know who to believe these days. It really is. Um I I'm challenged by.

that as well. Um, I I just we got to keep going and and. this this is still worth fighting for. As messed up as things have gotten, you. know, our way of life is is really. important to continue. And we're still a. beacon. That doesn't mean we're. defending everyone or paying for. everything. But we have to we have to, you know, retain that. >> We are the beacon. We are the beacon.

The only beacon. >> Amen. So, you know, >> doesn't mean everyone can move here, though. >> Oh, man. So, then you got promoted. >> Yeah. >> To Dadsy. >> I did. >> What is that? >> Uh, deputy assistant secretary of. defense for Middle East. Um, so it's. just like what it sounds like basically. the DoD's kind of policy lead for the. region, for the Middle East. So, um, in.

reality, just a staff officer job at a higher. level, but I still had many, many people. in my chain of command that I had to. prep for meetings and I had to send them. memos explaining things and ask them to. do things. So, um, there was a lot of. that in that job and but it was it was. amazing job, amazing opportunity, amazing time to be there during the. Abraham Accords. Uh so uh yeah but I was.

there during CO so it was also a little. bit crazy um you know we had coming from. from special operations where CO didn't. change anything you know we all went to. work every day everyone showed up no one. wore masks we just it was the same um. but when I moved over to like the. traditional policy world I had many most. of my office was not there. Oh, and um.

they started this campaign. I I I ended. up kind of I think making peace with a. lot of the staff, but um you know, they're like traditional government. bureaucrats and a lot of them had gone. to these schools that I referred to um. and were very concerned about me coming. to be their boss. And so they actually. there was a story in Politico about me. before I even got into the job. And it. was it was kind of sad because it wasn't.

even about me. It was about my parents. And um and it was just like, oh, you. know, we're just really scared about. what this means. Like, okay. Uh so I. show up there. There was a guy wearing. this m literally like a I think it was a. rebreather mask or something like just. the most insane. [Music]. Okay. Hi. Um, and he I think he wrote me.

up at one point because I had my own. office and I would go in my office. I. would not wear a mask and um and I would. just do my work and that apparently was. like an unsafe unsafe work environment. thing and I even though I was alone in. my office, I had to wear a mask. No. Um, and also I had a buddy on the COVID task. force who told me like early days masks. are like they don't do. anything. Um, so I'm like this whole.

thing is is a it's like a performance. It's not real. >> Um, so I did my best to kind of like. refuse to take part in it, but it was. impossible, you know, because people. they'll tell you like you have to. where's your mask? Put your mask on. And. um, you know, it was it was it was. tough. Maybe I should have pushed back. more. I have a lot of respect for people. who did in that environment. And it was. really really hard. Um but you know I.

uh so it it limited what I was able to. do. You know the travel usually a lot of. travel in that job. Uh my travel was. limited and when I did travel it was. there was like you know tests every. minute and um quarantine and. >> oh man. >> So it was a huge pain in the butt. But. the job itself was amazing. We still had. a lot of visitors and um you know was. there during the Abraham Accords. >> How was that? I mean and then so my.

understanding of the Abraham Accords is. it's it's some type of a treaty in. between Middle Eastern countries and. Israel basically a peace deal. Correct. Can you elaborate on that a little bit. for people that don't know? >> Sure. So essentially they don't um. since the formation and the foundation. of the state of Israel in 1948. um the all the countries in the Arab. League never uh recognized that the.

state of Israel um it was never formally. recognized and in fact there are two. different wars where Israel's neighbors. attacked it um and Israel one um and um. but there's never been peace the only. there's been individual peace with like. Egypt and Jordan um who have benefited. like they've benefited greatly from. Jordan in particular from Israel's kind.

of like security. uh. asurances whatever they share a lot of. intelligence with Jordan they do a lot. quietly a lot of stuff together and um. in Egypt. Um, I don't want to I think things have. gotten a little more challenged since. October 7th and since it was revealed. that the number and size of tunnels. going between Egypt and the Gaza Strip. where Egypt was supposed to be.

maintaining uh security uh there. Anyway, um but. the Abraham Accords were um when several. countries. uh. UAE, Bahrain, Morocco, uh Sudan, I think the Sudan um all.

um formally acknowledged the state of. Israel and as such established. diplomatic relations. um e economic ties, uh military ties. So. um it was such a huge momentous. like. earthshattering event truly. Um we we. had the opportunity after that to move. Israel into scentcom. Israel because its. neighbors were always like either.

fighting it or at minimum hated it and. wouldn't uh acknowledge its existence. Israel was always part of Yukon. Um but. during the first Trump administration. after the Abraham Accords, Israel joined. SNCOM. Um and so that's also been a huge. change that a lot of people don't. realize where they're doing so many. joint exercises now um that they were. never able to do before. And um Israel.

hopefully can become like the premier. security guarantor in the region. Um and. that is a great thing for us. >> So. >> you were a part of that. >> Um I was I was part of the So I just. want to be careful. This was another. thing where like many people have. written books and and have claimed uh. that they've you know I I'm not. I was part of the arms deal afterwards.

Um so. yes I I definitely was involved in the. like second and third order things that. happened after the agreement was signed. Um but no, I wasn't part of the. diplomatic effort. That was there were. only really a few people who were and um. just a just a monumental game-changing. thing. It's truly extraordinary to to. see the changes in the region even since. even since then just a few years ago. Really amazing and um and hopeful and.

I'm hoping you know things are a little. crazy right now but we were on track. I. think Syria was on track to joining the. Abraham Accords. And um I know Israel. bombed it this morning, but I'm uh I. know this sounds weird to say, but I'm. still kind of hopeful that they will. Um. Galani has has uh condemned what. his people ostensibly did. So um and and.

they they've made some kind of. ceasefire. So, I hope it holds and I. hope long term that I mean that's that's. how this is solved. Like there there. needs to be a broader piece. A lot of. people have questions about what. happened in the last few days against. the Drews and if it was somehow. orchestrated by Iran. I've seen people. on X kind of raise that as as a. potential.

um you know something that could. potentially be the case. Interesting. Iran is known for doing stuff like that. So, it's possible. Um they they don't. have a lot of cards at this time. So, instigating this kind of unrest like. obviously Abraham Accords is the worst. possible thing that could happen to. them. And uh October 7th was a direct um. result of Saudi Arabia being very very. close to joining the Abraham Accords and.

Iran obviously scuttled that uh with the. Hamas attack against Israel. So we'll. see what happens. But um man, these. people have been in war for so long and. there's just so much suffering. Um but. we need to keep a very cleareyed view. into like what is in our US interests, where do our interests lie, what do we. want to influence and how. While while understanding that at a base. level is not going to involve troops on.

the ground like that's off the table. That's just not that's not real. What I. do think is possible though is you know. we have authorities for other things. you know, we have um surrogates, we have. partner units. Like maybe not in this. case, but maybe in the future in other. instances that's something that our. government could think about, but um I. don't really see that playing out right. now. >> Well, I hope you're right. Um but.

Simone, we're wrapping up the interview. I know you got a flight to catch, so I. don't want to keep you too long. So, one. last question. >> Yes. There's three people you could see. on this show, who would they be? >> Great question. Um, I need to think about that. I don't have. an immediate answer. Do you need one. right now? >> Rattle one off. >> Um,

I really I'm sorry. Sorry, I'm drawing a. blank. >> All right, >> I apologize. I left it all on the field, Sean. >> That was the toughest question of the. interview. >> Got nothing left. >> Well, Simone, I'm I just really. appreciate you coming here and uh I. loved chatting with you and getting to. know you and going down all those. different rabbit holes. And. >> thank you. >> I don't think you give yourself enough. credit, but.

very impressive career. I I want to be. careful because you you and I both know. that community and you know, god forbid. I would never want to take any like they. did the real work. You know what I mean? Um I think it's important to acknowledge. that. But thank you very much. >> Thank you. >> This has been fun. >> All right. Cheers. >> Yeah. Cheers.

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