Shawn Ryan Show #005 Navy SEAL Warrior K9 Dog Trainer Mike Ritland (PT2)

i've heard you describe it it's like a [ __  ] chainsaw it's no different than uh you know. spikes going into your into your [ __ ] arm this  episode of the sean ryan show is brought to you by. vigilance elite patreon vigilance elite  patreon is how you support the show it also. has an entire library of tactical training and  behind the scenes footage of the sean ryan show. go to vigilanceelite.com click the training tab  it'll take you right to vigilance lead training.

on patreon get a subscription support  the show thank you let's get on with it. the ied was the single deadliest counter  measure that that we were facing in. the u.s government spent billions on  trying to figure out a way to defeat them.

the results were that a [ __ ] dog's nose  was the most accurate and most reliable.

ladies and gentlemen welcome back to the sean  ryan show this is part two of episode zero zero. five with mike ritland if you have not seen part  one we cover his life as a navy seal operator. click the link above check that out now  we're moving into part two where we cover. everything about mike's warrior dogs what  they go through on deployment what they go.

through when they come home thank you for all the  netflix suggestions if you haven't gone to itunes. please go to itunes leave us a review with that  being said let's get on with it enjoy the show. all right mike here we are day two  and uh this podcast is gonna be. all about uh your training with dogs and and uh  kind of what the dogs deal with you know overseas.

and and uh it's not about you anymore good that's  even better yeah but uh before we get started. we've been talking uh back and forth about putting  a documentary together and uh my marketing guy who. you met john howard has been really pushing us  pushing me to do a documentary and so i've been. thinking about who i would like to do on in with  and uh you know after spending the last few weeks. researching you i think it would be [ __  ] perfect i don't think there's enough.

information on on what those dogs are going  through and uh and and and with your foundation. and uh i think it would be really cool to kind  of showcase uh what the life of a warrior dog. uh and service is like and after service so for  the audience if you are involved with netflix or.

amazon prime or anything and uh you would be  interested in helping us out or anybody that. can direct us in the right uh in the right  way to kind of produce something like that. email me email mike uh leave a comment and  uh i will leave a link where you can request. on netflix uh a show and so that'll be in the  description if you guys want to fill it out.

uh i'll put what we need to say on it uh that  would really help us out especially if we get. a couple hundred thousand people watching this  and everybody uh fires it up sends them a little. message then who knows who might actually [ __ ]  make it happen that would be awesome i would love. to do it yeah it would be a real [ __ ] pleasure  yeah so you got a lot of videos on your training. a lot of bite videos um and uh i think i've seen  most of them one so anyways i have a pet too who.

you met griffin the griffster the [ __ ] eater  and uh yeah uh you have a video of uh walking. you some of your dogs without a leash and home  depot and lowe's and stuff so i'll roll the tape.

so me and griffin did a little modified version  of this but i think you know i'm hoping you can. give me a little bit of uh give me some some  pointers here yeah on what we're doing wrong so. i'll just roll the tape for you real quick.

the [ __ ] look on your face is at least half  of why this it's all business it is all business. with when me and the grifters me and the gripster  get the training it's all business oh it's. [ __ ] great i love it but uh any pointers i mean  he's off leash you're all [ __ ] business people. are looking at you the dog's not paying attention  i mean i'd say you [ __ ] knocked it out of the. park i think they're a little worried you know  i mean you didn't see anybody [ __ ] with you.

that's for damn sure could smell that breath  a mile away maybe but well griffin will just. look at somebody like i ate pieces of [ __ ] like  you for breakfast with that [ __ ] and grin but. now getting serious i'm gonna look at my notes  here but um in one of the books i was listening. to i didn't read them because i'm a [ __ ]  slow reader but uh i did listen and one of.

the first things you said in one of your  books and uh this isn't verbatim here but. you're talking about canines have been used  ever since the beginning of war yeah and um. and i thought about that and they're still used  today um and kind of thinking about that uh. it's actually it's pretty [ __ ] amazing because  everything else has been phased out you know we um.

we used to use spears and swords and shields and [  __ ] horses catapults and all kinds of yeah that's. all been phased out firearms different firearms  have been phased out planes fighter jets have. been phased out drones have been phased out and  they you know they're coming up with new ones um. helicopter everything except dogs has been  phased out at one point or another and i mean. [ __ ] humans will probably be phased out here  you know before too long and uh that just you.

know when you think about it that's yeah well so  to me the you know there's two things with that is. one is that it really kind of highlights just how  important and and how effective they are you know. is that you know the the application with which  they're used may be different in some ways to. to keep up with the technology i.e explosives  weren't around you know in the in the roman times.

but so having an explosive detection dog was not  necessary but the way that they use their nose and. the way that they augment mankind is is largely  unchanged uh that way and just the fact that from. an asset standpoint you know that they're still  used uh in that same capacity whether it's finding. enemy soldiers and biting them or you know just  keep keeping soldiers safe and augmenting them.

from a force multiplier standpoint uh you know  they're still just as effective the second thing. excuse me is um there was a study done at  the height of the iraq war um and it was. billions of dollars where and this is where  you know the the ied was the single deadliest. um you know counter measure that that we were  facing as as american soldiers and so the us. government spent billions on trying to figure out  a way to defeat them and uh at the end of that.

study the results were that a [ __ ] dog's nose  was the most accurate and most reliable method of. of uh you know finding and locating improvised  explosive devices you know all the machines that. they tried in these machines are you know  multi-million dollar machines in some cases. with you know the latest and greatest  olfactory blower technology and stuff.

and uh and dogs were still better at it  than they were and when you couple that. with their mobile they're you know a fraction of  a fraction of the price of most of the equipment. but they also uh can bite the [ __ ] out of people  uh as you experienced earlier this morning and uh. and um you know there's an element of of kind  of a slice of home from a camaraderie and morale. standpoint that having a cool [ __ ] dog with  your crew uh makes a big [ __ ] difference so. uh yeah they're just they're they're truly  remarkable creatures that way that makes a hell of.

a lot of sense with the morale too um do you have  any idea what kind of dogs they were using back i. mean way back when yeah so i mean from from what  i've kind of read and researched is that you know. way the [ __ ] back in like the roman  and spartan era uh it there were more. you know bigger melissa type breeds than the  mastiff kind of breeds uh but it depended on. you know what what they were using them for if  they were using them for defense and going into.

battle they wanted big strong hard biting dogs  that they would use to hunt [ __ ] wolves and. bears and [ __ ] like that with and obviously if  they're that physically capable capable because. back then it was really mostly about brute force  and physical strength and what have you so they. would outfit you know pieces of armor and [  __ ] collars with spikes on them and and some. gnarly [ __ ] that way so that people couldn't  [ __ ] with them or you know hurt them as bad. if they were running messages and supplies and  [ __ ] like that it would be you know a smaller.

leaner more athletic dog that that wasn't biting  people that was just really intelligent and and. taught to either relay messages or again move  move equipment or things of that nature so again. just like today it kind of depends on on the  purpose uh or the application in terms of what. uh what they're going to use to do it um well  i mean they've definitely evolved with all the. uh capabilities that they're using them for now  and uh and and i mean i mean they've become part.

of the team at least in the special  operations community yeah absolutely. but um i'm curious you know you've been training  dogs for how many years now uh i mean so. in this capacity professionally for about 12 years  um before that i i still you know used these same. breeds i just wasn't you know making a living at  doing it for about six or seven years before that. and i you know messed around with training  for years before that i mean at this point.

uh over 20 years you know of training dogs  of different breeds of different capacities. um you know in a lot of different ways  so um and i i'm really glad that i kind. of started out with bird dogs and hog dogs  and and from an animal husbandry standpoint. learned a lot uh you know about veterinary care  and breeding theory and um you know nutrition. and conditioning and things of that nature on the  hunting side because that that really augmented uh. once i started to get really heavy into the  into the operant conditioning and training.

theory as it relates to higher end stuff  like military and police working dogs so. that that certainly helped kind of well uh or  round out my uh my perspective and knowledge base. on just dogs generally speaking but um what are  some of the you know uh we were talking about how. they used them way back when and i'm curious in  your 20 years of training dogs how have you seen.

the training and what they're utilized for  progress the probably the biggest thing that i've. seen that i that i'm happy to see is a shift from  using primarily compulsion or punishment and and. doing more reinforcement training now i'm not a  pure positive trainer by any [ __ ] stretch uh you. know i'm not the click and treat for absolutely  everything there there is a time and a place. for corrections just like there is with people  or raising kids is that you know if i'm trying.

to teach the dog behaviors and shape behaviors and  and bridge complex uh behavioral patterns together. then i want that to be a positive learning  environment no different than say a third. grade you're trying to teach them arithmetic and  you set a math book down and they don't know and. you slap the [ __ ] out of them they're not going  to they're not going to pick that up very well. and it's a stressful shitty way to try to learn  something now so i want that to be a sterile. learning environment set the room up in the  environment for them to make the right decision or.

the decision i want them to make and then i reward  them and reinforce that behavior on the transverse. just like with kids is that uh while i'm not gonna  you know slap somebody for not understanding uh. arithmetic if you know you tell your child hey  i need you to tidy your room up it's kind of a. mess and they say hey dad how about you go [ __  ] yourself like then you're gonna get your ass. kicked you know and so with with dogs it's much  that same way is that you know the only time i'm.

going to use corrections is is if it's you know  blatant disrespect and challenging behavior where. where it's bordering on dangerous which a lot  of the dogs that i work with sometimes you run. into dogs that way that are so dominant that are  so you know uh resource guard driven or whatever. the situation dictates that they decide that  i'm gonna take a [ __ ] shot at the title then. yeah i'm gonna use force to make sure that they  know that that's an unacceptable behavior but um. the other instance where i may do that is if i've  shaped a behavior and i and i have done it so many.

times to where it's a conditioned response and i  know they know it and they're just kind of blowing. it off then i may give them a slight correction  for that to get their attention and get their. their mind back where it needs to be and focused  on what uh what they need to be doing but. but that's really about it you know whereas a  lot of times years ago um and even today there's. still certainly some units that use it more than  i think they probably should you know it was just. a prong collar remote collar a stick [ __ ] you  know just you know beating dogs into submission.

basically and that's that's not a good place to  be when you know if i'm expecting the dog to go. you know away from me independent of the  handler you know and have the confidence and and. spine and character uh you know to to go in and  defeat somebody the last thing i want is a dog. with a broken spirit that you know is only doing  what he's doing to avoid having his ass kicked you. know that's not a good good mentality to have if  you're going to fight somebody yeah um portal uh.

also what i meant just for example when i was in  the seal teams i know they've been using them for. a while and and uh yesterday you had mentioned  that you had dogs on one of your ops back in in. in the early 2000s i did not have a  lot of experience with dogs in fact. we had a couple dogs on missions but they  they didn't really do much they were more for.

i think sniffing things out i didn't really get  to know the handler it was somebody that kind of. was just attached when we got  there but um i sure as hell uh. never jumped with a dog fast roped with  a dog swam you know um any of that so. was it pretty common for the dogs in the  early earlier parts of the war to be more just.

a bomb sniffer or um when did it become  more common for the dogs to be attack dogs. so from from the attack standpoint you know early  on where where i think the biggest transition. transition has been made uh as it relates to  special operations is you know early on and. this is by early on i mean post 911 is that there  were no special operations units using dogs at all. and so very quickly as you start to realize  you know [ __ ] there's ieds and explosives and.

and caches and [ __ ] it would be nice to to have  a capability very eod like to be able to locate. where these ieds and explosive caches are and so  um what they first started kind of doing is using. regular military working dogs that were explosive  detection or patrol patrol meaning bite dogs. and uh you know while that's a capability and  an augment uh i think that they realized very.

quickly that you know having a you know a marine  mp uh you know or a navy gate guard you know mp. patrol dog with you know seal team six uh  doesn't mesh up very well in terms of you. know their operational knowledge and and  their skill set as a as a shooter and so. um it was while while it was kind of better than  nothing it i think highlighted that they needed. guys either their own guys or or you know folks  that were much more on the level as it relates.

to operational competency to be able to go do  those types of things you know so if you're. taking something that just has never done that and  putting them on a high speed [ __ ] direct assault. uh you know that's that's a dangerous thing to [  __ ] do and there's too many moving parts and it's. kind of a recipe for disaster in some ways and  so they ramped up uh having their own guys be. handlers as quick as possible that takes  time you know standing up a dog program in. a unit that's never had one is no different than  standing up a new special operations unit it's a.

totally different [ __ ] skill set it's not like  um you know hey we're to throw a sniper detachment. you know capability on i mean it's it's weapons  it's already things that we're pretty familiar. with the tactics are pretty seamless to meld into  with a dog you know no pun intended it's a whole. different [ __ ] animal you know literally and  so it takes years to really get at a level where. you're kind of operating and you really understand  the dog and can read the dog and you know no.

different than the scenario we did today is that  there are certain things that you guys just leaned. on me to say [ __ ] i don't know you know should  we have him come this way or where should we be. standing or whatever you know it takes a while  uh to to get to that point where you can kind of. predict what's gonna happen or probably you  know the the mode that the dog is is gonna. uh operate in and so because of that um you  know it was i think it was a rough couple. of first years of getting those dogs online  and then once they did then it was okay well.

now we're inserting via parachute via fast  rope via [ __ ] 10 click foot patrol via. side by side polaris [ __ ] razor or whatever  and so we need the dogs to accompany us so they. need to be able to do all that [ __ ] too and  so it was a a hyper [ __ ] steep learning curve. i think uh but you know within a matter of years  now they've got their own guys handling dogs that. are [ __ ] parachuting fast roping [ __ ] riding  on boats you know getting thrown over a shoulder. and a [ __ ] back of a side by side you name it uh  and they've had to to have the dogs kind of adapt.

operationally to all of the different things that  that we do so if if the capability uh is required. to have a dog that can locate explosives and do  squirter patrol on out the back of a target or. have the ability to uh you know find  somebody in a false floor or a false wall or. sandbagged with a pkm in a corner  of a room or something like that.

[ __ ] we need to bring the dog whether we with  us we need to figure out how to how to have. that dog with us no matter how we're inserting  and so it's bred out of necessity for sure wow. um you know with all the other departments that  you that uh you know you deal with in in in a. in a small special operations team you get you  know medical if the medic goes down everybody has. you know a [ __ ] ton of med training if the  calm guy goes down everybody has a [ __ ] ton.

of med training so i guess kind of where i'm going  with this is uh two questions and that is one how. does the rest of the team interact with the dog  are they scared shitless of them yeah they they. generally are not a lot of it's going to depend on  the dog a lot of it's going to depend on how good. the handler is at communicating and educating the  rest of the platoon how to interact with the dog.

what to do what not to do and how proactive they  are at integrating the dog into the team a good. mode or method of doing that is uh making it  very black and white for the dog that's what. a lot of guys do is they'll you know when the vest  is on the dog is at work and you don't [ __ ] play. with a dog you don't pet the dog you don't uh you  know treat it like anything other than what it is. uh when the vest is off and you're in the  team room or you're hanging around or whatever. you know then then you can let your guard  down a little bit and interact with it again.

some dogs are more suitable for that than  others there's some dogs that it's just. this is a [ __ ] do not pet uh you know in case  of war break glass kind of [ __ ] that just hates. everybody and and it's just best that you don't [  __ ] with them uh you know those dogs do exist now. in terms of what happens if the handler goes  down there's there's also that onus uh generally. relies on the handler where he's gonna need to  communicate to the people to the rest of the the.

members uh you know what they need to do and from  my perspective it's two things which is uh calmly. interact with the dog and try to get a muzzle on  it try to get a leash on it and then you know just. get it where it needs to be if that's medevacked  out because the dog is injured or accompanying the. handler because you know the handler is injured  or whatever it is uh is that you know guys have. to practice doing that a little bit and so  it's important for the handler to integrate. different people in the platoon to to be able to  at least handle the dog not give them commands and.

operate with them and do bite work and all other  other types of [ __ ] but at least be able to clip. a leash to the dog muzzle them take them for a  walk things like that and that's where again the. handler comes in and having that dog be a part  of the platoon operations as much as possible. is going to help that because you can't  explain to the dog hey this is the platoon. these are the good guys like you just have to  have that dog around them a lot so that they. can do that without uh without too much trouble  but does that ever happen we're a handler i mean.

we're talk i mean i hope not but you know  the chances are [ __ ] high with what uh. you know with the job description it is what it  is but um has there been a scenario where where. the handler has been has been kia on target  in the middle of an op and um i mean after. seeing what after feeling what i felt today uh  the last thing i want to be worried about is. a supposed dog that's on my side but yeah do you  know where i'm going yeah uh so things like that.

you know do happen uh generally it's the handlers  injured uh you know i had benny olson on and he. told a gripping [ __ ] story of uh his dog diego  that ended up uh was one of the first two dogs. at the warrior dog foundation and they were in  iraq on a on a mission where they actually lost a. couple of guys and benny got severely injured like  unconscious you know um needed to be life flighted.

out was all [ __ ] up and diego the dog was too  and yeah it was a [ __ ] separating diego from. from benny they they managed to get it done uh  but you know he's [ __ ] snarling at other members. and he's hurt too you know the dog is hurt and so  he's in pain and and pretty reactive that way and. and yeah that is a reality of it and  that's you know again that's why it's. so crucial that uh you know that the other members  understand you know how to get a muzzle on the dog.

you know and and there is a process to doing that  uh but also that it's been done a lot so that the. dog is desensitized it's not the first time you're  trying to put a muzzle on the dog is when you know. he's [ __ ] bleeding out of a femoral artery  and the handler's unconscious and he's trying. to [ __ ] rip your face off for coming near either  one of them like that's not the time to to try it. yeah you know so just like medical training you  know the time to figure out how to give somebody. an iv is is not when they actually need it or  they're going to die from it you know so with.

the dog stuff it's the same way but again the big  thing is just try to get a muzzle on the dog clip. a [ __ ] leash to them and uh and get them out of  there and get them where they need to be so that. so the dog might be a pain in the ass you know  i mean for for a non-handler but it sounds like. uh there are no concerns that it's going to  turn and so it can i mean there are times where. where that dog like injures their their  own team members to the point where they're.

[ __ ] out of the fight i mean it's happened  okay uh not often uh but it does happen you know. and again that's where having the right dog goes  a long [ __ ] way in that regard but sometimes you. know this is the dog we have he's good enough to  do the work he's a little sharper or more reactive. than i would like but you know we need one and  he's it you know and yeah there are times where. blue on blue dog dog bites the wrong [ __ ] person  and and [ __ ] them up and and uh you know you try.

to minimize that just like there's times where  we shoot each other you know doesn't happen often. but it does happen you do all the things that  you can to try to mitigate that uh in training. so that it doesn't happen uh in wartime but  you know sometimes it still does happen so. you know again the biggest thing is just  conditioning the dog to the team as best you can. so that you minimize that that percentage chance  of it happening okay uh so and and uh in general.

would you say that dogs are very aware of who  the enemy is and and who yeah the friendlies are. generally yes you know and again having guys  all wearing kit around the dog and and being. around them a lot and going on on training trips  you know where the dog is integrated as much. as possible makes a big difference the  difference between you know some units and. other units uh police specifically is that um  you run into that a lot more with police where. they've got a you know a dog that's that's you  utilized in a swat application but swat only meets.

two days a month to do their their monthly  training and that's the only time that the. dog is around the swap members otherwise he's  with his handler doing patrol calls and street. calls and things like that that's a good  example of of now it's a real deal scenario. you know this dog's only been around the  swat team eight times you know in four months. and uh and now you're going into a dynamic [ __ ]  scenario where you know flash bangs are going off.

and people are yelling and there's shots being  fired or whatever and the dog fillets open one. of the [ __ ] team members hamstrings because  he's just not used to him you know whereas you. know a high level tier one unit where that  dog is attached with those [ __ ] 30 dudes. all day every day does every training trip is  around them you know every [ __ ] day that happens. way less there so a lot of it is just conditioning  the dog to uh to be what you need them to be.

how attached how attached are the dogs to the  handlers so and the reason i'm asking this is um. say you know some guys are more motivated than  others and they really want to learn every job. and i'd imagine it's the exact same with i mean  if i was in a platoon that had a dog i would. want to [ __ ] know everything i could about uh  being a handler in case this were to happen but. i guess my question is how attached are  the dogs to their handlers and if the.

handler was to go down out of the fight and  could not give commands does the dog become. completely ineffective at that point or can  somebody you know pick up pick up the ball and. and uh and and drive on and keep that  dog uh effective in the fight sure so. a lot of that is going to vary from handler to  handler and dog to dog and even unit to unit.

i've seen some dogs that were so [ __ ]  attached to their handler that yes they would. become bordering on [ __ ] useless if something  happened to their handler or very very difficult. for somebody else to to now pick up the leash and  finish the mission if it's a explosive detection. you know somebody trying to handle the dog in an  explosive detection you know that's a tall order. for somebody who's not a handler but there are  some dogs on the other end of the spectrum that um.

you [ __ ] you know you you could hand your wife  the leash you know and the dog at [ __ ] work. they're just that autonomous and independent and  aloof and and not dependent on a handler and they. just love to [ __ ] work uh the the dog that i  have here right now would be very much that way. he's just laser focused super driven wants to  [ __ ] work all the time and and you know for. him he doesn't have that attachment to me the  way that a lot of dogs or even most dogs do. you know so he's a dog that if you put  him in that environment uh any any of.

the [ __ ] handlers or any of the platoon  mates or team members could handle that dog. no problem and then there's dogs that are kind  of somewhere in between um you know so it it's. largely dependent on the personality of the dog  and how how attached they get to their handler. interesting you know uh i've seen uh pictures  where um you know there'll be a casket of uh. of a down a down handler with a flag draped over  it and uh and you see videos and and and pictures.

where the dog will not leave the casket which is  [ __ ] gut-wrenching yeah you know um and at the. same time it's it's actually uh pretty cool to see  uh and sad you know um but but uh you know after. uh researching and all that um that was just  one of the questions that really stuck out. to me but um so kind of moving on  from that uh the way you talk about.

psychology of dogs is is um it's like  you're the [ __ ] dog whisperer over there. but um the whisper screamer maybe i don't know  yeah but uh but um and i could go on for days. about different things that you've said but uh  the one that one of them that really sticks out is. and i can't remember if this was in one of your  books or if this was in one of your podcasts or 60.

minutes or one of the million things you've been  on um you're talking about the growl is actually. a weakness and and i really started trying to  put things together with all the different things. that you've said and we'll go into a little more  depth here in a minute but they are a lot like. [ __ ] humans and you you reiterate that in all  your publications and all your content and that.

everybody else who doesn't know to include me  takes that as like some serious aggression uh. like that dog is you know getting ready to  rip my head off which i still think they are. but when you said that that's weakness um  it made me think nine times out of ten the. loudest [ __ ] in the room is always the weakest  link or the biggest [ __ ] bag yeah you know and.

they're hiding some kind of insecurity which is  what you said uh when a dog growls it's because. it's uh i believe he said it's fear but anyways  i just kind of want to breach that subject uh. with the dog psychology and and uh and and and how  similar it is to humans yeah so if you think about. it in the context of uh any time that you've  ever been around a dog that's growled at you. uh you know what is generally the human  being's response to a dog growling.

fear was is they in terms of the physical action  that most people if you walk up to a dog and it. growls and shows its teeth and kind of pops its  jaws do most people go go forward and continue. [ __ ] with a dog or most people say ooh you know  what maybe i'm gonna [ __ ] back up on this one. yeah uh that's why they do it is that you know  for whatever the reason is now i i think it is. imperative to caveat that while growling is  is ultimately that the dog is uncomfortable.

uh scared or at a minimum you know for for  whatever reason whether it's pain or confusion. or whatever is that the dog does not want whatever  is taking place to either continue or advance if. that's you then it is what it is if it's a  stimulus that the dog runs into and it makes. him nervous you know sometimes you may be walking  and something happens and it's not even a person. and the dog will start growling because they're  not sure what the [ __ ] it is you know is that. it's a defense mechanism the same way peacock  feathers are and that it's trying to communicate.

you know the same way a guy in a bar is like i'll  [ __ ] you up you know it's like you shouldn't. have to tell me that you know i should either know  that or you just do it you know and and so with a. dog a good supremely confident dog isn't going to  [ __ ] growl if he wants to fight you he's just. going to [ __ ] fight you yeah now just because  the dog ralls doesn't mean that he won't bite you. depending on on where he's at in his fight or  flight mentality and physically environmentally.

where he's at if a dog is over in that corner  laying down and you walk up and it growls even. though it's [ __ ] scary if it's got nowhere to  go and it feels like okay it should or get off the. pot and i gotta fight this guy then they will and  i will also say the dog that growls and and bites. after he growls is going to bite  hard as [ __ ] because he's scared. really you know that the same way yeah i mean  you see it in bite work a lot in the suit where. when you start to get into a dog's head and  make them uncomfortable and you may get a little. growling uh you know on a bite and and sometimes  it's it's less related to fear sometimes it's um.

you know a host of other intangibles that are  going on that are probably beyond the scope of. this but um but most of the time it's because the  dog is a little uncomfortable and so but what you. can feel is that you know if you start to get  in that dog's head and he's a little growly. while he's biting a lot of times you'll actually  feel it and he's biting even harder because now. there's adrenaline going and the same same thing  if you know when you hear the stories of uh you. know kids getting trapped under cars and the [  __ ] seven-year-old grandma picks up a volkswagen.

uh you know because their kid was trapped under  you know when adrenaline and all these hormones. uh are are going through and their central nervous  system is [ __ ] taxed and whatever is that. uh now it's it's kind of fighting for your life or  in this case biting for your life and many times. they'll bite even harder in those circumstances so  um where you kind of use that to your advantage as. a human being is is looking at the big pictures  you know is the dog behind the fence and you're.

coming over the fence and they're growling in  that case like yeah if you pull that that dog's. card and uh call is bluff you can get them to run  if you're committed and you have the ability to. use your presence to communicate to that dog [ __  ] I'm not scared and i'm coming after you and in. those cases then you know almost every single  time the dog's going to be like you know what. i'm [ __ ] out of here if i'm working a dog and  they start growling then i'll i'll investigate. it further i'll i'll start doing whatever i  was doing you know to get him to growl i'll.

back off and see if he'll get comfortable when he  does i'll do it again and see if he growls again. and back off and then do it again and see you know  what it what is it about what i'm doing that's. getting in his head to make him uncomfortable  and i won't say that it doesn't matter what it is. but you may not know exactly why what what you're  doing is is having that impact what's important. is to work him through it ultimately as a trainer  decoy etc it's our goal and our job to make the. dog stronger so if you expose a weakness you  want to you want to work him through that and.

build his confidence through that if i'm you  know an adversary a dog is coming at me and i. don't know the dog and whatever the situation is  then yeah i'll use that to exploit that weakness. and ultimately try to uh try to defeat the dog  with with whatever he's uncomfortable about but. so you know a lot of it's going to depend on  on kind of what you're doing with a dog but. to your point um you know it's it's a an important  indicator of where the dog's mind is at more than.

anything and i will say that for dogs across the  board is that our job is to read them you know and. they tell you a shitload of information if you  a know what to look for uh b pay attention and. see do it enough to where you know you understand  why why they're doing what they're doing and so. a good handler and a good dog owner period  should be able to look at their dog and know. what the [ __ ] going on uh just because they've  they've observed them a lot so uh so you you.

can take a dog that's uncomfortable that's  growling and and you can you can reverse it. i would say usually depends on how bad it  is it depends on how slight or significant. what i'm doing is to make them growl if it's  something really [ __ ] basic and and and me not. not trying to do it um you know then then it's  probably going to be a bigger problem you know. in in bite work as you as you try to progress the  dog through the goal is to make them stronger by.

building their threshold for stress tolerance  that's really the the key concept of bite work. is to teach them that when i put stress and  pressure on them i want them to respond by. natural forward aggression and coming forward  and so countering in deeper biting harder pushing. forward wrapping their legs around your leg or  or whatever they can get and get their paws on.

you know different indicators that say that  that dog is is coming forward and bringing. the fight to me and then what i do is i use  all of my body language and i take that pre. pressure and stress off of the dog which in  turn reinforces to the dog that what he did was. what turned the pressure off and so when you do  that over and over and over is that you condition. the dog to understand that hey this guy may smack  me and stab me and punch me and try to throw me. in a trash can and slam me up against a car door  or whatever and if i fight harder then i will win.

and so you're just it's the same reinforcement  principle as the dog sits and you give him food. is that when he when he fights me the way that  i know that if he fights me that way it's gonna. it's gonna maximize his percentage of chances to  survive that encounter and i reinforce that by by. turning all of that pressure off now he feels  emboldened you know and so now he becomes even. more confident and then i put stress and pressure  on him again i get in his head i rattle him a.

little bit and as soon as i see that i freeze  i don't put any more on but i don't take any. more off either because i don't want to reward  him getting [ __ ] a little squirrely and being. in his head so as soon as i do that i wait for  him to counter in and it can be the most micro. uh you know counter or aggression or or indicator  that he's bringing it forward and the second he. does that i turn into a [ __ ] gazelle in a lion's  mouth and let him completely [ __ ] dominate. me so that now he's like [ __ ] that that's  what did it you know and you just keep going.

back and forth back and forth overlapping those  those drives that way um ultimately conditioning. the dog to be as strong as as his genetics will  allow him to be his genetics are always going to. dictate and determine how strong you can make  that dog and how much pressure they can take. there's going to be a limit to every dog some  dogs can take a truckload some dogs you know. you're tapped out a little a little shorter  than that or even a lot shorter than that.

in terms of the growling question that's going to  going to tell you a lot about how far you can get. with a dog and you're only going to know once you  start kind of navigating those areas pushing the. envelope putting pressure on them seeing where  they start to crack and then seeing how they. they develop through that you go on to say um  that if if if a dog doesn't growl it's going to. be a lot harder to get into his head and uh and uh  and train them with with the amount of confidence. they have have you ever had a dog that uh that  either that didn't have a growling point or.

have you ever uh have you ever had a dog or been  training a dog that made you feel a little eerie. like yeah absolutely yeah one kind of correction  on that and you know it's a small one but you can. still get in a dog's head without them growling  i mean there's certainly times where i've been. able to to mind [ __ ] a dog enough for them to  be like [ __ ] this and they didn't make a peep.

uh growling is usually accompanying that but not  always so just an important distinction to make. to your question yes i've worked with a  number of dogs that earlier on in my career. there was nothing i could do to [ __ ] get  in their head i would say at this point um. i think you'd be i would be hard-pressed to find  a dog where where i can't get in their head but. there's two things with that that are important  is is that it's not fair because i'm wearing a.

[ __ ] bite suit you know so obviously that dog is  at a [ __ ] enormous disadvantage yeah if i take. the bite suit off then yeah there's probably going  to be a shitload of dogs that i can't get in their. head because they're going to [ __ ] me up too bad  too fast for me to be able to continue to put that. kind of pressure on them um but because i'm in  the bite suit even though it may hurt and bruise. you up and pinch your skin and sometimes they even  go through it it's still they can't really hurt me. the way that i can hurt them you know so because  of that and just with the years and countless dogs.

that i've i've worked you know now i can i can  flip that switch on pretty effectively and and. and turn all of that violence and anger and  aggression and presence and and direct it. right into that dog real god damn fast and make  him think holy [ __ ] i don't want to [ __ ] be. around this guy you know and so um you know it's  a it's a progression i think in people the same. way it is with dogs is that i've i've learned  how to become way better at mind [ __ ] dogs and.

intimidating them and getting in their head and  making them realize dude this guy's here is here. for bad [ __ ] intentions and i don't want to be  a part of this okay um because they they all have. that limit it's just um some it takes way more  to get there than others but do you have enough. can you give us an example of a time uh maybe  earlier on in your training days where where. maybe you'd made a mistake maybe you didn't have  the bite suit on and you were confronted and and.

you were like [ __ ] i don't know how the hell i'm  gonna get out of this yeah so um this was probably. eight years ago um i had a dog in that i got  for a friend of mine that wanted to he had some. some security concerns and wanted a dog and so  i just picked this dog up and within a matter of. days i was like hey man this dog is too much dog  for you um you know he makes me [ __ ] nervous. makes my [ __ ] pucker when i clip a leash to  him and he looks at me a little [ __ ] cockeyed.

he's not the right dog for you and you know  long story short he said you know it is the. right dog just i want the challenge i need  something [ __ ] asap i was like you know as. the expert i'm telling you like this is going  to become a problem you know no no i i get it. you know i'll sign a waiver whatever like just i  need a [ __ ] dog now and i was like okay but you. know six months from now don't call me and say  my dog won't let me back in my [ __ ] vehicle. uh and that's basically what happened but  anyway just in the time that i had him um.

he was walking into uh my garage and grabbed one  of my kids it was a brand new expensive leather. pair of cowboy boots and grabbing started trying  to chew him up and and i'm like [ __ ] you know. and i didn't want him to eat him and get sick  or possibly [ __ ] kill him i didn't want him. to destroy him either but you know i told him  to let go and he didn't and i told him again i. started kind of popping the leash and he kind  of stiffened up and look at looked at me like. [ __ ] you know and just kept kept going at  it and so i grabbed his his [ __ ] collar.

and tried to choke him off of it and he  turned around and grabbed me in the wrist. and [ __ ] broke it [ __ ] and uh as soon as he  grabbed me um you know that was the the first. time that uh that a dog really [ __ ] came after  me with with anger i mean i'd had dogs before that. that had come after me and and broke skin and [ __  ] opened me up and things but but this one it was. just a difference in mentality in the dog like  you you could tell he was [ __ ] angry about it.

and uh i choked him unconscious and uh but yeah  i i want to reiterate though is that you know. at that point as soon as his gum line was buried  into my my flesh um the every thought in my mind. about being tough intimidating uh that i'm gonna  mind [ __ ] this dog that i'm better than this dog. [ __ ] evaporated yeah um and all i could think  about was how can i minimize the amount of damage.

that this little [ __ ] is doing to me you know it  took every [ __ ] ounce of fight out of me um and. and i i just you know squatted down and smothered  him and tried to keep him from from moving and. thrashing and damaging me even more grabbed his  collar rolled it crisscrossed it and lifted up. and uh and got him unconscious and as soon as  he he let go i released like that and a couple. seconds later he went boom and [ __ ] grabs  it again i was like jesus [ __ ] christ and i.

at that point i uh i put him completely under for  several seconds and then i'd grab the leash uh. open the door put it on the inside of the doorknob  close the door so he was tied off got back out of. his out of his range and then [ __ ] sat down i  was pale face [ __ ] blood everywhere and i was. just you know knees wobbly [ __ ] shocky like oh  my [ __ ] god what happened and it felt like like. my wrist had been [ __ ] run over i mean it was  just that pounding ball peen hammer you know throb.

um and i i was [ __ ] rattled you know the first  two minutes like holy [ __ ] um and so you know. as one example like you know again without  the suit you know imagine you you've been bit. now right yeah imagine not having that suit  on and having that dog come do that to you. it feels with the suit on it feels like a your it  feels like your arms in a [ __ ] vise yeah uh with. nails yeah yeah nails would be the pressure points  and uh and i mean [ __ ] my [ __ ] forearm is what.

the bone was uh yeah well yeah and so you know  once you've been through that it it becomes very. very apparent you know and i think i'm glad that  you went through that and that uh you know think. about how you thought it was going to be and now  knowing what it is and now trying to explain it. to somebody that's never been through it like  you really can't you know even if you say yeah. that's what it feels like like until you actually  feel that you you don't really understand how.

capable they are when they're standing six feet  away and the way that they [ __ ] look at you. and and knowing how how intense they're  going to come in and grab a hold of you. like you just can't really explain that to  somebody you know until they've been through. it but taking it a step further now that's what it  is in the suit outside of the suit you know again. um it's it's a it's a [ __ ] it's a  rough experience and again for me it.

it made me decide real quick that uh you know i'm  not here to defeat the dog i'm just trying to to. escape with as little damage as possible yeah mike  i want to talk about the bite a little bit later. and uh how effective it is but but you do a  really good job of um kind of describing dog. psychology and how it relates to humans and  uh one thing that really stuck out to me is. you talk about how instinctive dogs are to  picking up body language because they don't speak.

they don't think like we do they don't have they  don't think with a voice um it's it's so pretty. much all they have to pick up on is body language  and how much better they are at that than humans. so i'd like you to go into that a little bit sure  so you know a lot of times you hear people talk. about uh you know dogs can smell fear and uh  while yes there is a a hormonal shift that uh.

i think you could argue that there's some some  scent associated with that primarily the the way. that dogs read people is through nonverbal  communication and body language and a good. i think way to look at the disparity in terms of  how how much better they are than human beings are. you know we think about this podcast  as an example think about the amount of. information that's been exchanged between us  and the couple hours we've been sitting here.

body language has played a role in what we've  talked about but very little comparative to. you know the the verbal exchange word wise  and so if you think about you know you're. at a walmart parking lot you can you can see  what kind of [ __ ] day somebody's having by. them walking across the parking lot 300 yards  away having never met them you know not talking. to them can't hear hear them speaking if they are  but you have a good idea if that day if that day. is the most miserable day of that person's life  or if they're happy or if they're in a hurry uh.

if they're confused or they're frustrated you can  you can get a good idea of that from that far away. with all of those intangibles and think about you  know again how that's even though it's that easy. for us to see that that's not how we primarily  communicate now with a dog they don't talk at. all the way that we do you know they don't have an  internal monologue they don't use logic and reason. to figure things out so every interaction that  they have with every other animal every person. all of that [ __ ] is you know overwhelmingly  non-verbal uh you know and body language and so.

one of the problems you run into as a handler is  cueing the dog you know and so they're picking up. on something as simple as eye movement uh you know  interact with your dog and just look you know look. like that and a lot of times you can get your dog  to be like what the [ __ ] is you know what is he. looking at over there or think about the mood  that you're in you know how many times have you. been in a situation where you're frustrated that  something has nothing to do with a dog and your.

dog picks up on that and decides you know what i'm  gonna go in the other [ __ ] room so they'll pick. up on the most minute everything else everything  i mean you know again as a handler it's it's. really difficult to be hyper aware enough to  to realize the things that you're doing and. it's basic [ __ ] i'm not even talking about  handling a dog as a canine handler i'm talking. about uh you know when you tell your dog to sit a  lot of times people will do that with their head. sit you know and they do that or you know  they'll tap their finger on their on their.

knee when they say hear or come or whatever and  not realize that they're doing it or move their. head that way you know here or whatever there's  all these little micro gestures and and nuances. in body language that we as human beings do  that accompany what we say to them or what we. mean or what we're trying to accomplish and  they pick up on that [ __ ] all the time um. another example is is is the context associated  with it you know you call your dog over um and. you have food in your hand uh the next word  out of your mouth if the dog you know knows sit.

or you think he knows it is gonna solicit a sit  response from that and i encourage people to try. it uh you know call your dog over the go through  the the same mechanisms the same routine that. you always do before you tell your dog to sit  but but use a completely [ __ ] different word. you know when he comes over say broccoli you know  and and watch your dog [ __ ] sit and look up at. you like you told him sit you know and it's  because you did all of the same [ __ ] things. and then went through the same cue and the same  mannerisms that you always do to tell the dog.

to sit same with grabbing a leash and connecting  it to the dog and taking them for a walk is that. you know you're doing all these little things that  are cueing the dog for them to understand uh that. that's what it is now how that relates to stuff  like bite work and protection dogs and police dogs. and things of that nature is that when people are  angry and they're violent and they have an intent. to harm they do certain things human beings act  a certain way you know cops are very good at at.

reading body language appeal because they interact  with people all [ __ ] day long and then a few. years into being a police officer they all say  the same thing like they get to the point where. you know just interacting with somebody on a  traffic stop they know you know what the [ __ ] if. that person's up to no good or if they're just in  a hurry or they're having a shitty day or they're. a legit [ __ ] criminal or whatever how many times  overseas were you somewhere in yemen as an example. where you don't speak a lick of the [ __ ] same uh  dialect or language but you know that is a bad guy.

you can just tell by looking at them you know same  same type of [ __ ] and so with them it's just. it's it's hyper uh focused that way and they're  absolute masters at reading body language so when. you're training and you're trying to reinforce  behavior it's really crucial that you are really. aware of what you're doing and focus on not doing  certain things and trying to remove all of your. body language so that you're shaping the behavior  without influencing it non-verbally that way.

well you know i'm almost embarrassed to say uh  but until i started uh kind of digging into your. content i had discredited a lot of uh that with  with dogs and uh not realizing uh how intelligent. they actually are but will they well they actually  pick up like uh emotional facial expressions. um uh well you know again it's it's all part of a  big puzzle right is it the dog just like with say.

you walk into a restaurant like are you just  pinpointing one thing no the facial expressions. are part of the the context that exists  that paints the whole picture of the room. to answer your question yes but does that is it  just the facial expression no it's it's what else. are you doing what are you not doing you know and  so just like with people dogs identify patterns. and behavior whether whether you even realize  you're doing it or not you know if you see. somebody uh you know walking through uh they'll  say the mall right and and it's a middle-aged guy.

right and he's pale-faced and rubbing the back of  his neck and he's looking around now if there's. not the context of well there's his wife and his  three daughters that are driving him [ __ ] nuts. that makes sense right because that's the  bigger picture whereas if that guy's by himself. and he's looking around and now it's like who's  this [ __ ] guy or let's say he's at a park. with kids but he has no wife and no kids there  like that's way out of [ __ ] place so with them.

it's that same kind of thing is that when things  don't add up that's when you see them cue up on. people and they're like wait a minute let me  size this [ __ ] up so they're just like with. us they walk into a restaurant or we walk into a  restaurant they walk into a crowd or they're into. a room filled with people they're sizing everybody  up and if nothing is blaringly standing out. they'll [ __ ] ignore it they'll check yeah  yeah okay nothing's [ __ ] going on but this. [ __ ] squirrely guy you know that's [ __ ]  moving you know like he's on [ __ ] drugs now.

now i'm paying attention to this [ __ ] guy and  so that's that's how they do it and pet dogs are. are no different it's just how they react to it or  you know the lack of what they're probably going. to do about it is is very different but they still  notice it and that's where it comes into play with. training your own dog is just be hyper aware of  what you're doing and focus on making sure that. you're not influencing the dog unless that's what  you want to do in terms of teaching hand signals. and [ __ ] like that but have you ever attempted  to train a dog without any verbal commands always.

curious i've worked with deaf dogs before no [  __ ] yeah yeah and so uh in fact i've had some. clients that had deaf dogs and uh and we use [ __  ] flashlights uh you know so you take a surefire. and the mark instead of the ch which a deaf dog  is never gonna [ __ ] hear you you flash a light. and then do it and so you're marking that behavior  the same [ __ ] way and then you're just teaching. hand signals so you know the the thing is it  actually works the exact same [ __ ] way you. know is that yeah if the dog's not facing you  you know you can you can use a laser pointer.

or a flashlight with a tight beam on it and  you can flash it in front of his face get his. attention and flash him and mark it that way but  the the principle with how you're going to train. them is the exact same way and it's actually i  would say probably even a little easier to train. a deaf dog than it is uh educate a deaf human  being you know because there's there's less to. uh for them to figure out that way and the the  principles are a little more parallel that way. because what you're teaching is just behavior  and not stuff like you are trying to teach a.

child you know arithmetic or how to read or [ __  ] whatever but my uh my wife gets migraines and um. she swears that when she gets migraines one of  the dogs comes up and lays on her head and i. assumed it was like yeah you're sleeping the dog  probably just wants to take a nap with it but. the dog will actually wrap her she'll lay  on her forehead and uh i mean what do you. make of that did you smear peanut butter  on her forehead before she laid down no no.

maybe you should i don't know the uh 100 you  know one of the adages we talk about in the. industry and it's usually more about being  nervous or uh amped up is that your emotion. travels down the leash and it absolutely [ __  ] does you know now i want to caveat that with. it's more about all of the other things that  you're doing in conjunction with feeling that. is that i have no doubt if you videotaped her the  next time she had a migraine and went to lay down.

videotape what she does how she does it versus  when she just goes to bed normally you know it's. going to be very different i'm sure there  are a number of things that she doesn't do. that the way that she normally would to  to go lay down in bed you know brush her. teeth get into a [ __ ] night again you know  whatever it is slap you around i don't know. put a suction cup dildo on your forehead maybe  it only happens sometimes yeah but uh maybe you. need a better routine i don't know but you  know so my point is is that you know you get.

into a routine that you do it every time before  you go to bed and so the dogs pick up on that. so when you do something outside of that that's  going to be that cue to the dog that well this is. [ __ ] different you know she just went and laid  down but didn't do x y and z in in conjunction. with you know just acting different you know your  eyes are closed while you're [ __ ] sitting there. or you know you you look like you're in pain or  uh maybe you make you know really almost uh hard. hard for anybody else to uh to hear or  pick up on little noises like just that.

you know or [ __ ] you know grunts and groans and  [ __ ] like that that they pick up on you know. there's so many little [ __ ] things that again  that you that most people don't realize that they. do that the dogs pick up on and the absence of  those things are every bit as much of an indicator. as the presence of certain things you know so if  if you do something the same way every time and. now some of that thing is some of that routine is  missing that's going to make the dog pay attention.

on the transverse you do something the same way  every time and now there's several more steps. into the into the into the routine the dogs  and be like what the [ __ ] is that so um you. can almost always reverse engineer when a dog  does something that you're like wait a minute. why is the dog doing this it's different or if  it's even if it's predictable is that you can walk. or work your way backwards and figure out why the  dog is doing what they're doing most of the time. well this is [ __ ] interesting because if you're  saying the dogs will react off of motion uh off.

the human emotion and uh body language you know  um getting into or i wasn't even planning on going. here but um service dogs uh are huge for uh guys  coming home with ptsd now i know that my dog um. will react differently when i'm [ __ ] pissed  off around the house you know if somebody ruins. my [ __ ] day i know my dog knows that because  uh he won't come around you know so i guess uh.

my question would be for somebody that has severe  ptsd and uh is constantly very aggressive and and. you know maybe a little short-tempered maybe a lot  short-tempered but you know always on edge and and. they're giving these dogs out for you know as  therapy as you know to help with ptsd how do. those dogs react to that kind of stress that's  consistently displayed all [ __ ] day long all.

week all year you know four years yeah i mean  there's two things one is is for sure it's taxing. on them it's no different than putting a working  dog to work and that it's you know it's going to. be work for the dog the biggest thing is is in the  selection is in finding a super social dog that. that is you know relatively unimpacted by that  because there are some just those happy-go-lucky.

dogs that you know whether it's a combination of  not being that that intuitive as as to you know. anger or temper or things of that nature or being  so confident such a good resting character such a. low drive from a working capacity dog that they're  they're not reactive towards any [ __ ] thing. you know and so a dog like that is a great fit for  that i mean i get asked all the [ __ ] time like. hey same thing like hey man i did [ __ ] nine  tours and i got ptsd you know i want to get a. service dog you know is that something you do no  i don't uh everything that makes a good dog a good.

dog for what i train for makes them a horrible [  __ ] service dog on the transverse all the things. that make a great service dog a great service  dog make them a terrible [ __ ] working dog so. um you know to your question it's it's really  about finding the the temperament that's. appropriate for that to where they're not super  reactive they're not super um you know high high. charged in terms of being startled by things or  being super keen to every little [ __ ] movement.

you know a low prey drive dog a dog that's just  again has a great resting character and is almost. unflappable uh nerve and environmental lies  no [ __ ] so if if you're saying a service. dog maybe isn't as intuitive as a as a uh as a  working dog probably not how the [ __ ] are they. i mean they're the ones i've seen are extremely  well trained yeah i mean so you know their. training is training you know irrespective of of  what the level of drive is you can always find.

things to motivate a dog sometimes it's uh you  know food sometimes it's attention sometimes it's. the lack of interaction dogs that don't like  it i wouldn't probably put a dog that doesn't. particularly like attention and affection uh in a  in a service dog home but you know training is is. repetition and reinforcement you know just hands  down you know so um you know i wouldn't say that. that those are related in terms of well if the dog  isn't isn't maybe as intuitive as it relates to.

emotion or drive or things of that nature  that they couldn't make a good service dog. or i would even take it a step further and say  that their their intuition relies more on certain. types of human emotion than it does reacting to  uh you know social competition i.e this human. is showing aggression and dominance and challenge  towards me and so i'm gonna rise up and challenge. him [ __ ] back you know that would obviously  be the the last dog you would want to put with.

somebody who's [ __ ] angry a lot uh you know so  it just needs to be a socially more submissive dog. you know that has no [ __ ] resource guarding  that's not uh socially challenging that's not. super reactive that is still environmentally very  very [ __ ] stable and confident enough to not be. threatened by somebody who's angry you know it's  it's a tough build to find a dog that's truly. remarkable and all that the same way it's really  difficult for me to find a dog that has all of the.

working characteristics but will still integrate  into into a normal household well i mean i go. through several dogs to find the right dog for  for the family application and i suspect that uh. you know most of the service dog trainers  out there probably do the same thing you know. they have the the luxury of going to a shelter  and then maybe finding good candidates there. because they're they're looking for a specific  skill set that that isn't funneled working. drives it's just amicability and social um  you know friendliness and compatibility so.

they're they're very specific skill sets uh  they're just very very different in terms of. you know when they're on polar ends of the  spectrum in terms of drive okay that makes. sense um you know um continuing on with with  continuing on with uh psychology of the dogs um. you mentioned a lot in in all your content as  well about how a dog is not happy unless it has.

a [ __ ] purpose and it's working and um you know  um what i want to say is i think we just saw it. and and i my marketing guy picked up on it uh  when we were filming uh me and the bite suit when. when uh duke ran up the hill and about took my  arm off but when he was when he came down uh i. was talking to him because he was barking and  i i said man i can't believe uh you know a dog. like that you wouldn't expect like a high pitch  bark i was expecting more of a deep uh honestly.

to be honest with you a little more intimidating  of a bark now the dog is very [ __ ] intimidating. but the dog uh so john said you know hey you  know the dog actually sounds pretty [ __ ] happy. and uh and then i thought about you know all  the different things that you had said and. and i was like well [ __ ] you know even though  the dog's about ready to eat me for [ __ ] lunch. and attack me he's doing what he's trying to do  he's working right now and even though um his.

work is uh obviously very violent he was happy  so is that why do they do dogs have different. barks do they have a deep bark and a high-pitched  bark or is the dog's bark pretty much the same. all the time no it's it varies uh significantly  i mean if if you had to pinpoint or or uh you. know parallel the dog's language is is that's it  you know their their bark and and what it sounds.

like again is a window into where their mind is at  today is a classic textbook example of a prey bark. and at the risk of getting too into the weeds  prey relieves stress for a dog you know when a. dog is in prey drive 100 they're happy they're  excited they're [ __ ] motivated and that's why. you get that high-pitched [ __ ] bark and  i asked you earlier did you hear him bark. last night when i took him out late and he said  yeah i think so i don't know if you noticed what.

that sounded like in comparison to what it  sounded like today it was the exact opposite. of what you heard today and it was because the  the alpaca movement down at the barn in the dark. it was the most thunderous i mean it echoed in  the entire goddamn valley i mean it sounded like. cerebrus getting his [ __ ] vocal cords [ __  ] i mean like it was the deepest most guttural. [ __ ] intimidating like shake your goddamn soul  bark that that i've heard out of him ever really. because he wasn't sure what the [ __ ] it was and  there's a little bit of nerve in there so when a.

dog has a guttural deep super low [ __ ] bark  that means he's trying to [ __ ] intimidate you. similar to a growl okay uh and many times when you  see a dog what what you won't see is in the bite. work where there's that high-pitched bark you'll  never see any hair up on the dog ever last night. when he barked like that his hackles were up a  little bit which i don't particularly like to see. but you know every dog is going to  show a little bit of that sometimes. there there is a benefit to having a little  edge like that a little defensiveness.

a dog that's so [ __ ] confident that nothing  ever worries them is a hard dog to to put in. the defense because they never feel that way a  lot of times pit bulls are that way that's why. most of the time pit bulls even though they have  crazy high prey drive and bite like a [ __ ] that. they're they're terrible protection and police  dogs from an apprehension standpoint most of the. time because they're so goddamn confident  almost to the point where they're stupid. confident uh is that you you almost can't get  them to [ __ ] worry about anything in a bad way.

just like with most things in life and that there  needs to be a healthy balance you want a dog that. you can put into defense but you don't want a  dog that goes into defense so [ __ ] quick that. they're reactive and nervy and edgy and biting the  wrong [ __ ] people for not doing something that's. justified being bitten for to your question  slash point it's neat that you picked that up. but yes there there are two disparate different uh  barks in in dogs and and that's when you see them.

uh and again as an owner a trainer a handler  what have you uh it's important to log that. mentally and say well you know when we're in  this environment i notice a prey bark out of them. i see the same thing let me cover the other side  when you know when you're doing certain things. and you hear a defensive bark log that too  and realize the different stimuli that elicit. a deep defensive [ __ ] uh defense bark as well  and know the difference and and know kind of the. dog's threshold of what what elicits both of those  um one of the things that you know people will say.

like the dog's in a crate and a kid runs by  and he barks that's a a big indicator again. is it a high-pitched prey bark because there's  just movement or is it a guttural low bark a. gutter or a low bark for kids running back and  forth would be a huge [ __ ] red flag for me. if i was going to put a a dog in a house with  kids or something like that i don't particularly. want to see a prey bark but you know i can  manage that and and condition the dog to.

to ignore that much more than a dog that feels  threatened and has a guttural deep defensive. bark with something that he shouldn't have  so again it's it's one piece of the puzzle. that you know for somebody in my position or  really anybody uh trying to evaluate and getting. to know your dog better is that those things  are windows into the dog's [ __ ] mind as to. as to what they think about the different  stimuli that they come in contact with. well um you mentioned prey drive and that's  exactly where i want to move into next.

uh you talk about it and and you talk about it  a ton and the different levels of prey drive. and uh can a dog have i mean you kind of just  said it i believe with the pit bulls but can. a dog have too much prey drive what is the right  amount you're looking for when you train a dog so. for for police military even personal protection  work i want a significant amount on the personal. protection dog side i like dogs with a little  less they still need to have it they still need to.

have enough to to want to play ball and and if i'm  cracking a whip or a decoys running away that that. incites them but it's it's far more manageable  for a military working dog or police dog scale. of one to ten [ __ ] 12. on a prey drive you want  a 12. yeah i want as much as i can [ __ ] get out. of them absolutely i want it to be bordering on  unmanageable okay and here's why is that when. i talk about doing the overlapping of prey and  defense uh in bite work and building that stress.

threshold so you know again uh prey relieves  stress so when the dog is in prey drive they're. happy they're emboldened they're they're enjoying  it they're driven firing on all cylinders when you. start to put them in the defense drive that's when  when now stress starts to build and you can see it. their their pupils will dilate their lips move  different their tail may set down a little lower. excuse me their ears may move in different be  pinned back more than i'd like to see they may.

stiffen up they may get a little chewy in their  grip they may seem like they're not sure they. might start getting whale eyed and looking  around they'll do all these different things. and and you'll know that when you're at the  point where if you put really any more pressure. on them that they're going to crack and it's  going to be counterproductive that's when you. when you freeze and again you don't back off  you just don't put any more on and then you let. them make that decision now once they make the  decision to come come back and and come forward.

then now i i go back into pray and for me to go  into pray that's high pitched screaming on my end. that's flailing around and moving that's turning  my head away that's letting them push me back. all the things that you see predatorily in in the  animal kingdom across the board what do predators. do well they don't [ __ ] scream you know they  think think of a lion stalking something it's. not making any [ __ ] noise fierce [ __ ] eye  contact you know crouching down slow methodical. very [ __ ] calculated movement right so that's  going to put a dog in defense because you're.

you're doing predatorial body language to them so  that's going to raise the stress in the dog that's. combatting you once he shows me that he wants  to fight me now i turn into the [ __ ] gazelle. i scream i flop around i let him physically  dominate me that relieves all of that stress by. putting him back into prey drive emboldens him  and conditions him to work through that and so. understanding that is really the key concept for.

bringing the most out of out of a bite dog while  you're working them in that capacity to your. question about why i want that kind of prey drive  the higher that is the more i can use that to. help the dog through stressful situations uh by  by relying on his ridiculous [ __ ] prey drive. i've seen some dogs with prey drive so high  that it almost didn't matter if they had a. defensive side to them or not because they  were so [ __ ] keyed up on something and and.

so [ __ ] about chasing something to where if  you just condition them to to go through your. series uh you know whether it's grabbing their  collar slapping them on the ribs and making. a preparatory command or whatever is that you  you go through that now the dog knows whatever. standing in front of me is it their prey drive is  so [ __ ] high that when they go in there they can. run through a goddamn barbed wire fence it could  be a building that's on fire and they don't even. realize it because their drive is so high it's  carrying them through all of that [ __ ] and so.

for if it's just a working application yes i i  want as much [ __ ] prey drive as i can possibly. find in a dog a dog like duke it's it's a [ __ ]  11. you know it's really [ __ ] high that dog you. know wants to chase absolutely [ __ ] everything  and so when when he's biting you there's a lot of. things you can do to him that he's not even gonna  [ __ ] notice uh no different than you in a street. fight right is it when it's uh you know when  you're in that mentality and you don't feel pain.

quite the same way because you're so loaded and  [ __ ] drive to to do what you're doing you know. they're they're very much in that same mentality  when their drive is is really high that way wow. for um for the for the home protection dog scale  of one to ten what are you looking for prairie. drive like a five or six a five or six yeah i mean  to me that's a it's a very nuanced like it's it's. kind of a gut feeling or it's you just you get a  sense of of how reactive and how driven they are.

and i want just enough to be able to train them  what i want them to do just enough to be able. to overlap drives and build their threshold and  make them uh able to put up with some [ __ ] in. the bite work but that's it you know okay um  a dog like duke as an example to to get him. to where kids could play soccer in front of him  and him just lay down and [ __ ] and watch it. would be almost [ __ ] impossible you can do it  but you i mean it would take a an absurd amount.

of conditioning and training that you would have  to maintain [ __ ] constantly to to have him in an. environment like that where he's not just losing  his goddamn mind watching that think about that. dog now in a household with three kids under  the age of five like that's a [ __ ] nightmare. you know so it's just like with finding  the the right dog for military and police. application selection is everything one of  the things that seal training has taught me.

i've transferred over into dogs very much that  same way is that buds is a selection process and. it's really [ __ ] good at what it does and so  i take that same approach and that my selection. process is almost [ __ ] impossible it's absurdly  difficult for me to say yes this dog passes for. whatever you know [ __ ] capacity i want  them to work in and i keep my standards. supremely high because that's going to make my  job easier to train them and it's going to make. the end users life way [ __ ] easier for the  application that they actually have them in.

wow when if you have a dog um like duke  with a with a very very high prey drive. i'm just curious uh once he has  his prey once he's got his bite. say you don't stop them how long is it how long is  that going to go on you know i mean uh is it good. yeah i mean it's [ __ ] i mean really until  you stop him or the dog is so exhausted he. just can't go anymore so it's he will go into  physical exhaustion absolutely he will yeah.

and there's there's you know times where  uh that that can happen yeah you know i. i know people that uh you know their own dogs  turned on them you know they were really nasty. [ __ ] dogs or whatever and the dog reacted  you know whatever the circumstances were and. you know they were they were battling  out for 45 [ __ ] minutes with their dog. or instances in police applications where  because of the environment that the dog is in.

i'll give you a gory [ __ ] example is that  it was a warehouse as a robbery suspect police. showed up had a dog they saw the guy go into some  ventilation duct that was you know about whatever. [ __ ] 20 inches 24 inches you know big enough  to crawl in but not not near big enough to turn. around and he's in this [ __ ] warehouse they know  he's in there where they sent the dog in after him. and so the dog came in after him and got him in  his [ __ ] hamstring and ass area because that's. that's what was there and and for the better  part of an hour literally ate his [ __ ] ass.

i mean the guy was unconscious shocky from the  bottom of his ass to the back of his knee was. was just [ __ ] bone do they always stay in one  section it depends you know a lot of it's going. to depend on you know in a situation like that  yeah because that's really all that's accessible. uh but it took you know the police you know a [  __ ] long time to be able to get up there and cut. the duct out and get both him and the dog house  i mean i almost killed the guy uh high drive dog. uh you know only one spot to focus on so yeah it's  a [ __ ] worst case scenario now let's say where.

you were at if if it was just you out in the woods  and the dog got got a hold of you and for whatever. reason you know the dog got loose from somebody  or whatever just there was nobody to intervene. uh a lot of it's gonna depend on what you do  what you don't do how much open terrain there. is you know how much movement there is you know  when i was telling you to give him a little bit. of movement if you sit there and just are totally  still and frozen like this he he may after a few.

minutes let go and grab you somewhere else you  know if you pass out from shock in her face down. yeah he's probably gonna and has just unfettered  access he's going to work you over until he's. exhausted and he may go several spots he may stick  to one spot it's just you know there's a lot of. a lot of variables there that are going to kind  of dictate some of it is the dog some of it's. the environment some of it's the the person  damn well moving into uh you know the bite. you call it bite force um which i can't wait  to talk about uh today when i was out there.

you know even with that with that suit on uh  i mean that's [ __ ] intimidating you know. and uh i wasn't as uh i wasn't so intimidated  about him biting my arm but i'll tell you man. i was [ __ ] nervous as [ __ ] that he  was gonna miss my arm and grab my throat. or uh or anything that wasn't covered by the  bite suit because when he did bite um i mean that.

you had mentioned it uh before several times you  know people that think oh you know i'll just punch. the [ __ ] dog or or or kick him or strangle  him or whatever and uh that isn't gonna work. and i figured that out real fast it's  they're not letting go it's like a vice. um with nails in it and uh  it's a constant pressure and.

that pressure if he does let up it's only  because it's about to be more pressure. yeah um so he didn't let up uh maybe for like a  split second you know and uh we'll roll the tape. and you can see it uh on screen but every time uh  there was you know just that fraction of a second. where he let up it was because he was getting  more leverage and more leverage and um and and and.

finding it seemed like he was finding like a sweet  spot to where he could uh get the maximum amount. of maximum amount of force on my arm and uh and  then until you were there to get him off but um. so anyways i was that [ __ ] that thought you know  i thought that now uh you've made me a believer. yeah and um and uh i've heard you describe  it it's like a [ __ ] chainsaw yeah so you. know the thing to keep in mind is that even with  that suit on the amount of pressure that you feel.

uh gives you a healthy respect for it but when  there when there's not you know that preventative. measure from you know [ __ ] tooth going gum  deep into your flesh and just i mean it is it's. the the mechanics of the teeth into your flesh  and the disparity in hardness coupled with. the force behind their jaw while they're doing  it and then the you know anywhere from 50 to. 90 pounds of body weight you know shaking  and moving on top of that it is i mean it's.

it's no different than uh you know spikes  going into your into your [ __ ] arm and been. somebody treating it like a goddamn joystick  is that it's gonna do a ton of damage. and so um the one thing that's very common is  people say or they ask you know how how hard. does a dog bite you know like what's the psi  behind it and the [ __ ] it depends it's like. saying how hard does a human being punch it's like  well some of them will [ __ ] rip your head off.

and some of them you know it may hurt but it's not  going to knock you out and everything in between. all of these dogs bite hard enough to [ __ ]  you up you know some of them bite way harder. than others i mean there's some that'll break  your [ __ ] bones i mean i've been a victim of. that more than once uh you know some of them you  know much less than that some of them even harder. than that um but the the overall bite force is is  magnified dramatically by the fact that it's it's. not just the pressure with a flat surface it's  you know spikes and serrated triangles going.

into soft flesh and then being moved around  and tugged on and things of that nature so. um it is a very violent process now  i will say from a training standpoint. and you talked about it a little bit is that you  know the the split seconds that he let up you felt. that he was getting deeper and there was kind  of a sweet spot one of the things that we teach. uh in the in the bite work also another  layer of it is that when they're biting.

if they're grabbing real shallow right they're  not going to be as strong no different than if. you try to grab my wrist like this towards the  first is like that you're going to have way more. leverage by getting as much of my wrist in your  in your hand as possible and so they understand. that inherently but to take it a step further is  that because the suit is on i don't want a dog. being reinforced to just have suit material where  you can't feel them and so when i'm in a bite suit. i wear the thinnest bite suit that i can possibly  stand with no gauntlets or wraps or anything.

underneath and if i can't feel him i won't give  him any [ __ ] prey movement to to reinforce or. reward that bite i'll be boring and whatever and  wait for him to counter in and go deeper and find. me that way if whether the guy is [ __ ] naked or  wearing a north face puffy jacket and a carhartt. uh shell over top of it is that the dog is gonna  bite until he finds you and when he finds you. that's when he gets rewarded because that's what  that's what it needs to be because if you have a. dog that and you can imagine you got a big loose [  __ ] flowing puffy jack and he just grabs material.

and is tugging well now that doesn't hurt right  so that's not really neutralizing and now you can. [ __ ] the dog up so i don't want the dog  just grabbing [ __ ] and pulling on it. sometimes you do see police dogs that have been  trained that way unfortunately and i disagree. with it anytime i do seminars or workshops  or conferences with any departments i always. you know explain why i disagree with that and and  from a tactic standpoint i want the dog searching.

for [ __ ] bone and i want him to get as much  of it in his mouth as possible because that's. going to give him the best chance at getting  out of that situation alive and ultimately. neutralizing that threat but um the bite pressure  is is uh you know it's one of those things that i. wouldn't say it's controversial but it's a big  ticket item in the in the dog industry because. uh you know everybody wants to know how how hard  the [ __ ] dog bites but um again the short answer. is they all bite hard enough to [ __ ] you up  when you don't have a big big puffy suit on yeah.

well i don't know how the [ __ ] you relate psi  to pain but if anybody does want to know how. hard a dog bites uh you can go to my grill  and then i'm sure i'd be happy to show you. but uh short answer is [ __ ] hard yeah um  that's interesting though so the the reward. the dog's reward is the struggle so i think that's  what you're saying so if you're not struggling. they're gonna find the spot that makes you [ __  ] struggling and uh so is that so if somebody.

were to pass out uh go into shock and pass out or  maybe [ __ ] blood loss i don't know you know and. there is no more movement are they still going  to look for that reward and just yeah eat your. entire body well yeah so again i hate to hate to  say it depends every [ __ ] every question but. the the the struggle equaling the reward example  i want to talk about that for a second is that. you know have you ever played tug of war with a  dog yeah so you know when you if you stop tugging.

what does the dog do it gets bored but if it's a  dog that really wants to play will they tug harder. yeah so if in these dogs it's you know at  a super high level of that so yes they'll. they'll get bored and they may start to tug harder  and if there's still nothing then that's when they. may let go and we'll let me try it here then  and now i'm gonna dig the [ __ ] out of that. and shake the [ __ ] out of it and it's not there  okay well let me try here then and then they'll.

they may move around and again if you're on  conscious and you have no [ __ ] suit on you're. going to turn into a human [ __ ] pin cushion  um that way if if the dog gets a little bored. and is trying to get you to squirm and squeal and  so um you know that that struggle is more about um. the dog understanding that they're causing pain  and and inflicting harm and things of that nature. uh if you've ever watched a cat with a mouse  you know they kind of play with it and when it's.

squealing and screaming like it emboldens the cat  and they [ __ ] with it harder and want to scream. even more you know most animals unfortunately are  a little [ __ ] twisted that way and that you know. it makes them feel powerful when they grab things  and they squirm and shake and scream and it just. in it further incites that prey instinct to to  capture and possess cory or pray or or whatever. so um you know it's just again understanding that  concept you can use that to your advantage to.

ultimately use that as a reinforcement component  while you're doing bite work to reward the bite. behavior they're not even necessarily related  it's just understanding that this makes the dog. feel good removes a lot of the [ __ ] stress that  he's under by me being you know in his head and. ultimately in incites further [ __ ] prey drive  by doing it so i'm gonna use that when the dog. you know finds me in the suit and counters in or  if i put pressure on him and he comes forward i'm. going to use that that prey instinct that he has  you know to my advantage by rewarding him for it.

so that i get that behavior more and more often or  in a uh in a greater capacity to him you know um. i see a lot of these pictures on the gram  and and i've seen a couple videos and. of dogs on target overseas uh you know in  the middle east and these [ __ ] dogs i mean. look like they just ate an entire man yeah  um i mean blood all over their face blood.

all over the jacket blood i mean literally  dripping out of their [ __ ] mouth and um. where do you train these dogs to bite so  it's a great question and i think a lot. of people think that the dog will you know go  for the throat or the crotch or [ __ ] anywhere. what i like to do is two things is i like to give  the dog a front target and a rear target in terms. of a human being is that if they are coming uh  towards somebody facing them i train them to come.

into the into the left bicep area or if the person  puts either of their hands in front of their face. then they they get the exterior of whatever  forearm if they put both it's just you know. it's one of the two of them if it's from the back  and the dog is running fast typically it'll be. the right tricep which facing a human being  that's basically the same spot the dog is going. to the top right [ __ ] corner of the human being  um sometimes if it's you know a transporter or a.

you know that's walking and it's a quick movement  then then it may go into the back right right knee. um again logistically if if it's not you know  a prey scenario where somebody's running and. fleeing at a at a high speed and they're in real  close then then a lot of times the dog will go. low or we'll have them go low depending on what  they can get to or not so they're looking for.

the first thing that's presented uh sort of i mean  early on we'll do what we call stapling the dog on. like you'll grab them by the jowls and place them  on that [ __ ] spot and do it over and over until. they naturally go there and and i do think that  it's important to teach a dog to target certain. areas plural not just one if you if you teach a  dog target one [ __ ] area and that's all they. ever do and then that's taken away from them a lot  of times dogs will be confused and they may just. sit there barking at them and because they're like  what the [ __ ] it doesn't compute so i do like to.

do you know top and bottom at least give them a  few different target areas but then also teach. them past that and you know once that's dialed  in then also put them in positions where let's. say you brought the dog up here and and you know  i'd put put somebody face down ass up behind that. that chest right there with both their their  legs sticking out is that the dog may come in. at the side of the thigh you know and if they  come in confused at first then i would come i'd. grab the dog i'd pull him back and kind of  let him you know almost [ __ ] with him and.

have the guy move his leg and move it up and down  and incite that prey drive get him fired up and. let him go pull him back let him go pull him back  and then finally let him go or staple him on and. get him to take that because you may run into a  scenario in a police or military application or. even personal protection where you know somebody's  hanging out of a [ __ ] window or they're under a. vehicle or you know i showed you that picture of  one of the police dogs i sold that grabbed a guy. underneath the wheel well of a big  [ __ ] cement truck or whatever and.

you know that that was the first thing that  it came to and they grabbed it so you want to. do both you know teach targeting at first but  then also teach the dog that in in situations. where it can't get to one of those targeting areas  that it will take whatever the [ __ ] is there i. mean those bites are um it's down to the bone yeah  it's not like a little pinhole it's several holes. in your flesh down to the [ __ ] bone i mean  you can see the tendons and and um damn i'm you.

know uh like i said i've never worked with dogs  overseas but i have um talked to guys that have. said that um there are times where they won't even  make room entry um to go if they're after uh like. an hvt or something and they will just send the  dog in um and um and a lot of times that person. may uh actually just come out if they announce hey  if you don't [ __ ] come out we're not coming in.

but we're gonna send the [ __ ] dog in and um  i've heard from several different guys that. a lot of times that person will [ __ ] actually  come out because they don't want anything to do. with the dog because rumors out that  they are you know that [ __ ] vicious. are these dogs getting kills uh i mean  it's it's happened a few times um but. it's really a classic example of what i just  talked about and that environmentally the.

situation terrain wise and and the environment  combined presented the situation where that's. just where the dog happened to to come in on  entry and you know the person's throat was there. or something of that nature um i've heard of of  instances of you know if it's an older really. skinny guy and it's a big [ __ ] long snouted hard  biting [ __ ] that gets him you know in the thigh.

where you know it'll break a femur and sever  a femoral artery uh you know something of that. nature but those are very rare instances um you  know the dogs you know of all of the apprehensions. that happen nationwide worldwide whatever you're  talking about you know a fraction of a fraction of. a percentage you know they're really anomalies  and and fluke kind of things you know the dogs. aren't taught to go after throats or nuts or  or anything like that they're they're generally.

taught to target ex external limbs you know  extremities yeah but you know again sometimes. you know if they get somebody bad enough  and they bleed out or you know the person's. got a heart condition and they're on [ __ ] drugs  or you know something like that maybe it induces. a heart attack or you know but again those are  are very very rare instances where something like. that happens i i would i would kind of equate it  to like a taser you know they're both non-lethal. means of of apprehension uh have there  been people that have died after being.

tased yes but it's it's very [ __ ] rare  you know maybe it causes a heart attack or. um you know they [ __ ] stiffen up and they fall  and they hit their head on a [ __ ] curve and. you know whatever but man but it's still you  know dogs overwhelmingly are are considered and. i would consider them non-lethal uh means of of  apprehension i mean [ __ ] man i mean even just. the fact that you said that oh you're trying dogs  to hit uh in here you know on the inner bicep i. mean [ __ ] your brachial artery yeah you know and  uh and uh from what i felt in a [ __ ] bite suit.

uh that dog would have been in my brachial artery  artery in about [ __ ] 0.2 seconds yeah but um wow. just a second here um kind of  wrapping up by force what would.

what is the worst uh bite you've  ever seen from from from a dog. uh probably the the one that uh benny talked about  uh you know his dog diego was in uh was in iraq. and it was a an ambush scenario where they  they were you know understanding that they were. about to be ambushed and they sent the dog and  the just the way that the it was like a palm grove.

or something like that and they had some sandbags  set up where it was just kind of a little gun port. the barrel sticking out of it kind of aimed  down and the guy was behind it sitting you know. with his face and neck right right through that  gunport and diego air centered him came flying. through and jammed his muzzle right through  the [ __ ] air uh you know the port there. and that's just where the dude's facing so just  you know because that's what was there he shot in. right on his [ __ ] throat i mean i wasn't there i  didn't see it but um you know in terms of stories.

that i've heard you know when they came up it  was the guy was already basically unconscious and. and probably dead or almost dead and you know it  sounded like uh the dog was breaking [ __ ] celery. you know in the esophagus and just [ __ ]  mutilating that [ __ ] you know diego's a hard. pretty hard biting dog and pretty pretty forward  in that in that manner too so um you know you know. again in a situation like that where it's  kind of a fluke thing that's pretty pretty. gnarly you know but uh yeah i'd say you know the  femur another story of a guy again it was a thin.

uh a thin older guy a dog was a big hard  biting 90 pound [ __ ] got a long muzzle and. got in on his inner thigh and broke his femur  and and yeah i passed out and you know [ __ ] him. up pretty bad um you know things like that  aren't uncommon i mean the dog that i showed. you that picture of the i mean i still have a  pretty good sized scar on my forearm where the. dog bit all the way through the bite suit and  filleted my [ __ ] forearm open that dog was a.

was a law enforcement dog here in the united  states that uh had uh i don't know 15 16 live. bites i think and and they were all [ __ ]  gruesome because it was just that hard biting. of a dog one of them was he bit the guy in the  back of his leg he was hidden in a [ __ ] tree. stump and the first part he got to was  you know right behind the uh behind the. knee upper calf area and peeled his entire  [ __ ] calf muscle completely off of his leg.

you know again just like the um the duct work  scenario is that it was just you know from. the back of his knee to his achilles tendon was  just [ __ ] bone and nothing else there you know. when you get a dog that's that's angry uh that  bites that hard that is well trained and has some. time to to work that person over wherever they  grab is is generally gonna be uh [ __ ] destroyed. you know yeah so damn well uh that's some pretty  gruesome [ __ ] yeah talk [ __ ] get bit right.

but uh like i saw a shirt with that on it  i think it was your shirt but uh hey let's. take a quick commercial break and when we come  back we'll pick up i got a great question so. i hope you guys are enjoying the show  i think this is a pretty good one. hit pause go over to vigilanceelite.com.

pick yourself up one of these sweet shirts and if  you're lucky maybe these hats will be in stock too. all right we're back from the break and  uh kind of want to get into some of the. tactics and stuff that um these  dogs are doing and uh you know.

uh back to your book i was listening  to it and uh it made me realize that. the dogs are i mean they're essentially they're  they're a [ __ ] they're a part of the team and uh. you had rattled off a lot of things  that they do and it made me realize that. these dogs are actually they seem like  they're [ __ ] actual operators yeah. um you know when you when you list them all  out like that together i mean they repel.

they jump out of planes they swim they attack  they track people um and the list goes on but uh. which which is [ __ ] amazing you know free  fall rappelling jumping fast roping swimming all. that [ __ ] um one thing i'm curious  about is uh if they do send a dog in. and uh say it is an hvt situation for those of you  that don't know what an hvt is it's a high value.

target and uh that's uh somebody that's high  on the kill list i thought it was huge vagina. tunnel that's not is that what it is i thought  that's what it was i've been [ __ ] misinformed. but uh but um if a dog makes entry um and  they are looking for an hvt and there are. civilians um you know that don't uh to innocence  is there a way the dog actually [ __ ] knows you.

know um do they have uh any level of target  identification um there are instances where. they've displayed that uh and it's i think  it speaks more to the intuition of the dogs. uh or the intuition of the dog and their  level of confidence in terms of knowing. what's threatening versus not uh it's a great  story of a handler that shared with me that.

they sent the dog in and uh you know they  did a call out basically where you know. hey everybody [ __ ] come out the person that  they wanted to come out didn't come out and uh. this [ __ ] [ __ ] bag i think was a mother  uh left their [ __ ] newborn baby like in a. a little [ __ ] bassinet or whatever  on the floor in one of the rooms uh and. there were you know other grown men in there or  whatever but long story short the dog went in.

located the baby sniffed it and [ __ ] kept  moving wow and ended up and going and biting the. right guy now for for me that's less about target  identification because they have no real concept. of that i think that's more of the context of  never [ __ ] you know going after little children. you know in thousands or hundreds of training  scenarios of always biting grown [ __ ] men. that are displaying aggressive tendencies etc  but also a dog being confident enough to walk. into a room be like you know no different than you  you see dogs that you know are pretty nasty with.

adults or they're good hunting dogs or even good  protection dogs that'll let a puppy [ __ ] with. them and bite them and nip at them and they'll  kind of roll over and play with them dogs aren't. [ __ ] dumb you know and so they know what's worth  being uh worried about or not most of the time um. you know to your question again there there  have been instances where you know they did. a remarkable job at discerning you know women and  children and non-combatants and people just kind. of [ __ ] milling about and ignoring the dog and  whatever and going after somebody that had the.

intent i think it's more about that is that you  know if there's a room filled with 10 [ __ ] grown. men and one of them has a machine gun and is angry  and waiting for american forces to come through. because he wants to kill him there's going to be a  very different [ __ ] vibe coming off of that guy. than the other nine that are scared shitless and  have no weapons and have no no ill intent i think. it's more about that than it is anything else but  okay but there are instances of the dog going in.

and just nuking the first [ __ ] that they come  in contact with that happens also um you know. so there's just a lot going on and and you know  there's not a cookie cutter answer to that really. but okay good you know maybe i don't know you  know may seem like a kind of a weird question but. you know from where i was at two weeks ago  before i kind of started researching into. where i'm at now now i'm on the complete opposite  end of the spectrum where i'm starting to realize. just exactly how [ __ ] capable these dogs are and  uh you know where where's the limit you know what.

where there's where do the capabilities end yeah  but um and i'm still trying to figure that out but. but um you know kind of um for the handlers  um you know when and i'm going to relate. this to a jtac you know and uh you know  sometimes guys will take credit for a kill. um more times than not i think it's multiple guys  that shoot the target or the you know the threat.

and uh so essentially it's not one person  that takes credit uh you know for a kill. um an exception being j tax you know if they  call in a uh fast mover or or uh you know direct. air support and uh get i don't know 100 [ __ ]  kills um a lot of times a jtag that that's his. he takes credit for that you know maybe even more  so than the pilot and uh i've heard on several of.

your podcasts um if you'll say this dog particular  dog got a bite or the handle or got a bite and so. i'm kind of wondering if that is uh i'm kind of  wondering if that is kind of the same kind of uh. accomplishment you know maybe a poor choice of  words i don't know but [ __ ] it who gives a. [ __ ] uh there's a bite you know is it  kill you know like i killed that person.

there's a handlers and you know he gets credit  for the bite and is it um is it on the same level. it absolutely is i mean that's that's  kind of the the measuring stick of. of handlers you know dick measuring their dog  versus you know i got [ __ ] 16 bites or 50. bites or this dog had over 100 bites you know  or whatever same thing with either drug fines. or explosive fines like yes dog found [ __ ] 97  ieds on this deployment or whatever so for sure.

it's a measuring stick but i also think that just  like with most operators is they they realize that. you know a lot of times people are just in  the right place at the right time and they're. presented with opportunities that that a lot of  other handlers aren't most people realize that. you know just like like i said most operators  realize wow this [ __ ] this platoon at this. team got [ __ ] you know 400 [ __ ] kills in this  deployment it's like you know they were in the. right [ __ ] place the right time whereas you know  this group maybe got six yeah you know so there.

is some of that as well but uh to your question  yes absolutely the number of bites and fines are. are a point of pride and bragging rights and a  bit of a measuring stick for handlers absolutely. oh god do you think this uh traumatizes the dogs  at all after you know being in service or is this. you know i mean do they does it affect them like  humans you know what i mean it does uh or it can. uh it's a little different in that it's generally  a negative association with a certain stimulus.

so it could be gunfire it could be helicopter  noises it could be the sound of uh you know a. tank turret i mean [ __ ] just like with you know  the way that we teach them to do certain things. through repetition is that they can they can learn  to be stressed out by certain things you know no. different than dogs with you know thunder it may  start out as the first time they ever heard it it. startled them but then now every time they heard  it the next 30 [ __ ] times it startled but now.

it's you know created into this it's been created  into this uh you know monstrosity in terms of. that dog completely shutting down  and blowing its anal glands when it. when it thunders because they're so scared  of it is that it's that same association. the the symptoms that that manifest uh from  ptsd and canines are are fairly similar to. human beings shutting down uh being reactively  aggressive um you know things of that nature.

where there's a huge disparity is in how you  treat them uh to a certain extent anyway is. that you know human beings are going to try to  rationalize it they're going to think about that. they may dwell on it they may ask why they you  know dogs don't don't really do that there's. just an association so the good news is if you  think of it like a piggy bank is that you've. got all these negative coins in a piggy bank as  it relates to we'll say gunfire and so you can. replace those negative coins with positive ones  and essentially rewrite the hard drive of the dog.

in contextual association with that stimuli so  the way that we do it is uh if it's gunfire as an. example is that i'd use like a 22 300 yards away  while i'm playing tug or playing ball with a dog. so it's it's barely [ __ ] registering while  i'm doing something that he really enjoys and. there's a prey element there again like we talked  about is that that's going to help relieve stress. and then maybe it's you know 20 to  100 yards away and then 50 and then.

right next to them and then it's  a 45 caliber pistol or a [ __ ] ak. 500 yards away and then you're slowly moving  it in and you're just desensitizing the dog and. rewriting that that negative association with with  positive ones very very carefully and slowly over. time so you can get rid of those types of issues  and dogs i think quite a bit easier than you can. with people because it's just very cut and dry  black and white that way really yeah do you think.

uh do you think dogs like with us you know you  had mentioned uh yesterday you know you wanted to. screen and go to damn neck you wanted to take  it to the next level you wanted more action. and you know uh i i myself deal with that a lot  of guys deal with that you know you get a taste. and then you want more and you want more you want  more because you like the way it makes you feel. and do you think a dog that has the more the  more bites a dog gets do they get addicted. to that [ __ ] adrenaline to that action to  that uh that feeling that they get they do.

they do not only does that take place uh i mean  you see it look at the you know duke when he. first came out versus you know the next time  or like you know once he realizes what's going. on he wants to do it he wants to keep doing  it you know until he's [ __ ] exhausted and. repetitions that are independent of of  each other in in other words there's a. space of time a period of time in between when  that's happening that yeah it's magnified that way.

on top of that is that especially with a bite dog  where they're they're going into combating a human. being that's four five six times their size um  and and they're and they're defeating something. that's bigger than them you know the more times  that happens the more confident they become. and and in some instances the harder they are  to deal with because they it's kind of like a. dog that's used to growling at people and and  getting them to [ __ ] back off and you know.

they're pumping out people because they're  growling and [ __ ] bullying people and they. get used to that and they get even more  confident a dog that you know goes in and. [ __ ] annihilates somebody for real uh yeah over  time it absolutely emboldens them even more and. makes them more and more confident most of the  time do you think they ever develop like a uh. an addiction to the taste of blood not  to the taste of blood no i don't i think.

you hear hear people say well once a dog tastes  blood i think it's total total [ __ ] and i think. it's the genetic drive that they have to do that  coupled with the training and experiences that. they have that are positively associated with  getting to do that kind of [ __ ] and they're. just driven for it you know i don't think it has  anything to do with uh with that wow well you've. trained uh dogs for seal teams for several  different agencies for law enforcement swat. teams [ __ ] you name it uh every unit somewhere  almost every unit seems to have a mike ritland dog.

have you ever trained a dog and i'm  getting into the warrior dog foundation. have you trained any dogs that have gone to  work and then come back to uh your foundation. i have there was a and it was a seal dog on top  of that which was really [ __ ] cool is that. it was a dog that uh wayne dodge and i um brought  into the program he selected the dog overseas.

that was right when i got there as a  trainer and so you know as the dog showed up. we put him through his first handler  course with his first handler. entire first workup for uh you know for  that deployment the dog deployed with. with that handler and then it had  a different handler after that. several years later the dog ends up coming uh  to the warrior dog foundation after he had been.

retired from that program um they're they're  the first two handlers that the dog had or. the two handlers that the dog had neither one of  them could take the dog one because of a family. situation the other was still on active duty  so we had the dog for several years with the. warrior dog foundation and then taylor canfield  is his name is the former seal race car driver. um came came to the ranch and uh and came and  adopted him a couple years ago now he's had him.

now for a couple of years so to have that kind of  full circle uh impact with a dog was was really. special it was neat to to be able to do that no  [ __ ] well that answers one of my questions so. so this stuff with all that [ __ ] action i was  gonna actually ask if uh you think that some. sort of therapy could uh you know um a dog that  has seen that much action and comes to your uh. your foundation if therapy or you know whatever  you want to call it can uh can rehab that dog.

to uh be able to you know live more of a uh  uh pet life yeah and was that guy a handler. he was i mean he was a nascar driver yeah so  he was actually that dog's handler and that's. what was so neat about it is that you know so he  was very comfortable and used to the dog to your. point slash question of uh you know do we have  the ability to rehab some of these dogs and and.

get them out into more civilian type settings yes  i would say that uh you know to put up it would. be impossible to put a percentage on it uh just  off the top of my head but i would say that it's. more dogs um you know are not really in that  category than the ones that we can do that with. but we have done it with a number of dogs we've  also been able to repurpose some of the dogs where. they come in and they're they're actually young  enough to where we spend enough time with them and. then and then find the right fit department-wise  that's maybe a little better equipped to handle a.

dog that's that kind of dog and have been able to  send some of the dogs that we've brought in after. you know several months of rehab to back out  and then they go on and work several more years. which is a pretty neat neat thing to be able to  repurpose these dogs if if they can do it what. is the what is the average working time frame  of the job i'd say about seven six seven years. i mean from from three to eight or nine for a  dual purpose dog is is about it you know five.

five to seven years um sometimes it may be two to  ten it may be you know three and a half to six i. mean a lot like uh you know another parallel with  with humans and dogs is that you know some seals. operate for 30 [ __ ] years and some do one [ __ ]  you know one enlistment one deployment and that's. that's it you know and so um it's kind of that  same way um you know there are times where dogs do. one deployment and it's a it's a hard you know op  tempo driven deployment and they they went through.

a lot and it just [ __ ] kind of ruined them and  and they're just never the same and and they have. to retire them after that i mean that that does  happen i wouldn't say that it's that it's often. yeah but it but there are instances where that's  the case what are some of the things you're doing. with these guys with these dogs uh you know at the  foundation so most of it is is using food uh and. just playing ball and and kind of exercise you  know using good food and positive reinforcement.

with food to kind of unwind their mind uh take the  pressure of of having to perform and operate off. of them entirely we're really not asking anything  of them in the way that we're getting them to just. do basic stuff like putting a muzzle on going  into a crate going back into their kennel run. being able to have their teeth brushed or a  veterinary exam or bathed you know using food and. lots of positive reinforcement and taking it slow  with doing those types of things that historically.

are some of the reasons why a lot of them end up  you know with us is that you know the handler's. trying to do certain things with him and he's and  the dog's biting the [ __ ] out of the handler or. the handler's family members or other  cops or just the wrong people because. you know for a number of reasons so we try to  desensitize the dogs to all that that type of. triggering type of behavior that that has  landed them with us that's our primary goal is. to both act as a resource or  a sanctuary so that the dog.

won't be euthanized and then rehabilitate that  dog based on on why it's here in the first place. and try to try to balance that out a little bit so  that they're they're a little bit more manageable. and ultimately and hopefully get them to a uh  you know civilian household and have him live. more like like a pet do you think uh i mean have  you maybe you've already done it but you think. a dog like that that um comes your foundation  who's seen who knows how much [ __ ] combat a lot.

is it possible or has it happened to  where uh they could go and live with a. a normal family not somebody that was a handler  not a pro uh like yourself like like someone like. uh like me yeah yeah we we have done that with a  number of dogs yes um which is a great feeling to. be able to do that uh i'd say there's a lot of  them that we haven't been able to do that with. that you know if we do adopt them out it needs to  go to somebody that really understands these dogs.

and can provide that type of of an environment for  them but but yeah we have we've had a number of. dogs that when they first came in they you know  they came in because they were a handful and a. bit a bunch of people and and they just needed uh  that kind of pause of of being able to to unwind. and take the the pressure off and then also a  big component to that is educating the the new. the new handlers and you know we've got some  requirements for anybody listening out there.

that you know potentially wants to you've got to  own your own home you've got to have a privacy. fenced in backyard uh no other pets and no  young kids you know those are things that. we just won't uh won't budge  on won't compromise on because. what what you need to understand is that no matter  how much rehab you do is the fact is that they're. proven biters they've proven you know that they've  made the wrong decision enough times to land them. with us in the first place so it would be  um irresponsible of us to put that dog in a.

position to make that same mistake again and so it  needs to be an environment where you know if push. comes to shove you have people that physically  are capable enough to at least keep the dog from. you know doing serious serious damage um you know  and if if there's young kids or other pets and. other stimulus in the house that you know  could potentially trigger that dog it's. just it would be foolish to put them back in  that environment so yeah i can see that um.

what is it if you had to put an average  you know i'm asking for an average not a. what is it what does the timeline look  like for a dog what is the recovery process. or not the process but the recovery  timeline of you know this dog is um. mean as [ __ ] you know traumatized uh  wants to [ __ ] bite everything it seems to. it's time you know we think he's ready yeah that's  a little family yeah it's hard to put an average.

because they're they're all as individual as we  are you know it's the same question as you know. how long does it take most ptsd vets to recover  from that you know it's like some of them never do. some of them a couple of weeks yeah you know  looking back historically on that me at this. point we've taken in almost 200 dogs in the  last you know 11 10 years um you know i would. say generally five six months you know if it's  kind of where you know after a few months you.

have a good idea like yeah i think this dog is  going to be able to be turned around we've seen. a ton of progress in that few months a few more  months and they'll probably be where they're at. that's you know generally the  timeline where i would say. you know just thinking back of all the dogs that  we've done that with is that that's about you know. what it took there's some dogs that you know  within a couple of weeks i'm like yeah that's. this dog for sure is is going to be a dog we can  do and maybe it's even a little quicker than that. there's many instances where a dog will come in  and in the first few days this dog is probably not.

going to leave here you can tell that question  sometimes sometimes yeah i mean with humans uh. you know they say that uh you know with uh when  it comes to ptsd and uh [ __ ] like that that. it's kind of a lifetime struggle  and uh he may improve but uh. chances are it's never gonna completely go away  yeah is it the same for dogs you think it will.

ever completely go away or is there always  a little edge i think that uh you know it's. it it's hard to say that um that it completely  goes away or not because the the biggest factor is. getting it to subside from a triggering  standpoint and then putting them in a. position where you're you're not going to have  them in the position to trigger it anymore anyway. so i mean you don't really know i suspect that  it's probably kind of similar that way and that.

um you know even if years go by of good rehab  and never put them in that position that if you. put them in the positions that that elicited  that response you know a time or a couple of. times it would probably come back easier  than it than it uh its initial onset. no different than like [ __ ]  heat stroke you know i think. just logically it's easy to ascertain that  that would would be the case that if you. put them in that same position several times or  enough times then yeah it's gonna come back if.

it came there in the first place from nothing for  sure it can come back if it's already happened so. the key really is educating the new the new owners  like here are the problems that that he had that. landed him with us in the first place here's  what you need to ensure so that you can kind. of do your best to guarantee that you'll mitigate  any potential instances of of that recurring issue.

do you think um another thing uh and it's [  __ ] crazy how similar it is to uh humans but. you know with humans um just like  anything you know some guys with uh. with ptsd that come home uh it's all about the  work you put in if you wanna [ __ ] get better. then you gotta put the work in to get better  if you're not gonna put the work in then you're. gonna be [ __ ] miserable forever yeah and uh  so uh do the dogs go through any kind of uh. decision making process or is  dc dogs that are more willing to.

i don't know what i'm trying to say here  but no i know i know what you mean i mean. i think that's that's one of the very  big differences between humans and dogs. is that you know on the it's it's really not  really about the dog so much as it is you know the. the human beings that are putting them  through those paces um i i think where. where the where the factors put in play whether  or not that dog can can make that kind of recovery.

is how bad did it get you know how many  times did it did it trigger the dog. after after it was an issue how many times did  it continue to happen and continue to shut the. dog down and make him spiral further  down you know how much baggage is there. is the first factor and then the second  factor is just uh you know the genetic. plasticity of the dog's brain as it relates to  being able to heal in that regard and i think.

that's largely largely genetic i i don't see it  being an effort issue on the dog's part i mean if. you put them in a position and do the things that  you're supposed to do with them because they have. all the genetics and drive to to do the work to  begin with they're gonna they're gonna do it uh. either way it's it's really more up to the human  being and how bad uh it got before they decided to. wash them out and try to rehab them i think okay  well mike i could uh drag this on all day uh i.

have questions for days but uh i want to end it i  know you want to hit the road and get home but uh. closing this thing out i just want to say you know  what um i mean i cannot think of a [ __ ] better. person you know to uh be training dogs to go to  these teams to seal teams to you know sf teams. to swat teams um you know knowing the tactics and  uh and being an operator yourself i'm sure that.

you've come up with things that you know a typical  trainer could never um think of and i just i mean. between what you're doing with that and  and and the warrior dog foundation i mean. damn man you're doing animals [ __ ] solid uh no  doubt about it and uh so if you want to donate to. mike um you know war dog foundation all his  uh social media websites everything will be.

linked in the description but you're a solid  [ __ ] man i mean damn you know i appreciate. the kind words i mean to me i i just enjoy  working with dogs i'm i'm fascinated by them i. i marvel at their uh their capability and  and just the things that they're able to. accomplish and how many lives of our brothers  and fellow countrymen that they've saved and uh. you know i just i i feel like we owe it to them  you know to to do our very best for them because.

they do that for us you know um some of it's  genetic but they're just you know they're they're. creatures that i i honestly i think we don't  [ __ ] deserve but uh but they're yeah they're. phenomenal and and i i can't imagine not uh not  being a part of them you know so yeah i appreciate. the platform and having me on and i could talk  about them [ __ ] non-stop too i usually do. so yeah well nice work man i appreciate it  can't wait to make that documentary amen.