Scott Payne - FBI Undercover Agent Reveals the Most Disturbing Cases of His Career | SRS #331

[music]. Scott Payne. >> Sir, >> welcome to the show, man. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for coming. >> Finally. [laughter]. Finally. I feel like the rock. Finally. The Scott. is on the Sea Ryan Show. >> Man, I've been pumped for this. >> Well, thanks, man. I am, too. >> Let me uh start you out with an. introduction here. >> All right. Here we go.

Scott Payne, your retired FBI undercover. agent who spent more than two decades. infiltrating drug traffickers, outlaw. motorcycle clubs, human traffickers, and. violent extremist organizations. Over the course of your FBI career, you. led dozens of undercover operations as. the primary agent when most agents at. the time might lead only a handful. Last. year, Buu became a New York Times. best-selling author with the release of. your memoir, Codeename Pale Horse.

Welcome to the show. >> Thanks, man. >> My pleasure. So, a couple things to. knock out here real quick. Everybody. gets a gift. >> Uh-huh. Nice. Oh, >> Vigilance League gummy bears. >> Perfect. >> Excellent. >> Candy. There's no funny business in them. other than a bunch of sugar and, you. know, other That's. >> the yellow. What is it? Yellow diamond. >> Yellow five. >> Yeah, >> it's probably in there. >> It's probably in there. Yeah. >> But uh and then uh we got a Patreon.

account. [clears throat] P They've been. with me since the beginning when I. started this thing in my attic and it. was just me and my wife and we couldn't. make any damn money. >> Yeah. >> And uh they've been here with us ever. since then all the way up to now. So. they're the reason I get to sit down. with you today. >> Excellent. And uh so one of the things I. do is um I offer them the opportunity to. ask every single guest a question. So here we go. This is from Ron. Sorenetto Santino, excuse me. Scott,

working undercover and dealing with the. world's with excuse me. Scott, working. undercover and dealing with the worst of. of the worst the world has to offer. Was. there a time when you wanted to stop or. you felt you were in too deep? Hm. Um, I don't think so off the top of my head, but there's some other things I can say. about that. Sometimes it's tough to. realize when it's time to pull out, you. know? So, I pull chocks and say, "Hey,

we've got everything we need. This is. too dangerous, whatever." Um, but uh, yeah. He said, "Worst of the. worst." And what was he asking? >> He said, "Was there a time when you. wanted to stop or you felt you were in. too deep?" Okay. Uh, as far as a time I. wanted to stop, um, sometimes my, we'll. probably talk about it, but my, uh, my. body told me it was time to stop. I. didn't want to stop mentally, but my. body said, "You're done." Um, and some.

of the like anything to do with the. child stuff, the the Yeah. the. pedophiles and stuff and picking those. I Yeah, I want out. I can't I like I've. trained agents. I've been their training. agent and they were working that stuff. As an undercover coordinator, I might be. helping and and and and helping them on. the covert side, but as far as working. that violation and looking at that stuff. daily, by camp. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's not me. Now, I've been.

hired I've been undercover and a. pedophile hired me to kill the kid he. molested. >> Um, you know. >> what? Yeah. I was happy to do that one. I'm like, "Yeah, let's get you, buddy. Time to go to. jail." He hired you to kill the kid he. molested. >> Yeah. Which actually isn't a bad plan as. far as murder for hires go that I've. been a part of. Um. he knew that he was going to do me bad. in prison. So while he was in jail in. San Antonio, Texas, he solicited uh a. gang member to help him find somebody.

that could murder this kid. Well, uh. maybe the general public doesn't know. it, but in jail it's all sharks and. they're looking for blood in the water. What I mean by that is if you can get. credit for something and shorten your. time, soon as you get that information, you're on the phone calling your lawyer. and saying, "Hey, I got something good. and that's how we kind of find out." But. yeah, I went in and met the guy. Only. did two meetings. But um I met him, showed him a picture of the kid, make. sure it was one. And uh he's a greedy. He he actually I kind of giggled because.

it caught me off guard, but uh he when. we're talking about murdering the kid, he uh he said, "Yeah, and I'd like you. to kill the rest of his family, too.". and they're like in Wisconsin and I'm. like, "Well, hang let's let's deal with. one at a time, but I'm not afraid to. travel, you know? Let's talk about money. and stuff." But yeah, >> what does something like that go for? >> Oh, it's nothing. It's not like TV. I I. mean, I've known some people for me to. see somebody get $100,000 to murder. somebody. That's That was more TV stuff.

I've known a couple who've done that. highutin stuff, maybe like a cartel. level or something, but I never saw it. Mine were two grand, 10 grand. serious. >> No, that's Yeah. >> $2,000. >> Yeah. >> Yep. Or it'll be like um they'll be. like, "Hey, uh you murder them as a. $100,000 insurance policy. When we get. that $100,000, we'll give you 12, you. know, or something like that. Whatever. you come up with." But of course, I'm. not I'm like, "You you want me to go. kill somebody based on your word that.

you're going to give me money after you. get the settlement?" No, you got to give. something up front. So, >> holy I never would have thought. it'd be that cheap. >> Yeah, >> especially here in the States. >> Yeah. >> Wow. Damn. >> That's crazy, man. >> But a lot of them are criminals for a. reason. >> Yeah. >> You know, they're not. >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. >> Sometimes it's not the smartest person. you're dealing with, but Yeah. >> Good [clears throat] point. >> You know, who's going to kill somebody.

for two? I mean, I don't know. weird. [snorts]. >> Follow on question. >> Okay. >> What was your everyday carry? >> Uh, the bureau would only let you carry. the the baby Glock. >> Really? Yeah. It used to and the FBI it. had a personally owned weapon program. and as the years went on, the if if you. had a personally owned weapon, it still. has to go to Quantico. The firearms.

people there have to go through it. You. got to send it in with four mags. They. make sure they test it just like they. test an FBI weapon. So, it has to pass. that. Well, it gets to a point to where. there's so many different weapons out. there. All the guys at the firearms unit. that are that are tinkering with it, they're like, "Dude, I don't want to. work on this gun." That's So, they just. narrowed it down to the baby Glock. But. me, what I carry now, my everyday carry. is uh well, first of all, in the bureau, my everyday carry was a a Glock 22 in. the beginning, and then it was the Glock. 17. Um, but now my EDC is a um Sig P365.

XL. >> Oh, no. >> Yeah. >> Right on. >> Yeah. I I did like the way cuz I got. bigger hands. I did like the way the uh. the Springfield XDS felt, but I mean. it's like voodoo. I I put I put the I. mean I understand it, but I put the P365. XL with 17 rounds and one in the chamber. next to my fullsize Glock with 17 rounds. and one in the chamber. And I'm like,

[laughter]. how do you fit? >> That's I don't get it. >> How long you been carrying that suit? >> Uh since before I retired. >> Right on. >> Yes. So I retired 5 years ago. Yeah. June 30th of 21. >> Congratulations. >> Yeah. Welcome to the civilian world. >> Right. >> Well, I got you a present. I got you. another present. >> But uh hold on. Let me grab it here. >> You seen these? >> No. >> You haven't seen these? That's the uh.

>> Is that the 320? >> That's No, that's the Sig. >> P211. GTO. with the new optic on there. So, I got a. friend over at Sig. Maybe you've heard. of him. His name's Jason. and uh he's a. big fan of yours and he was like, "You. got. >> Are you serious?". >> Yeah, man. >> You're serious? >> Yeah. >> This is so awesome, man. >> So, maybe we can go uh. >> break that bad boy in out back here. You. know, I got a range right out the back. here. >> I saw I saw when I rolled. Holy cow.

>> Yeah, I think you're going to like that. It's got that compensator up front. Shoots super flat. It's got the brand. new optic on it. [sighs]. I'm having a brain fart. I can't. remember how many rounds it holds. I. think I think it's 21, but we'll find. out. >> It's never enough. >> It's [laughter]. never enough. >> Man, this is unbelievable. >> You're going to love it. >> Oh, it feels so good. It's like I mean,

like a glove. Oh, yeah. I'm just going to start. wearing it right here. >> It's not the most tactical place, but. you know, [laughter] on a chain. >> like a bear gun. This is amazing. Yeah. >> Right on, man. >> Amazing. >> Well, hey, we want to do a life story on. you. >> Okay. >> And uh all the way from childhood up to. today. >> Let's do it. >> You ready? >> Yeah. >> All right. Where'd you grow up? >> Greenville, South Carolina. The. Greenville. >> The Greenville, South Carolina. Yeah. >> What were you into as a kid?

>> Uh sports. Sports definitely. Um I. laugh. Uh, I played basketball, the. basketball league at the Baptist church, the Baptist church, basketball league. Still to this day, me and my high school. buddies, we laugh. That was some of the. most violent those Baptist. I mean, cussing, screaming. [laughter]. You're like, man, it's it's church. What. are we doing? You're like, you're. throwing elbows, get him, get him. You. know, but uh sports. And then I mean my.

first seven years I went to a Christian. school and then I switched into public. school system. Uh that transition I was. not too good at peer pressure. I. [snorts] wasn't good at all. I almost. got expelled like in eighth grade for. right off the bat. >> showing some nude pictures for a class. project. It was not smart. But it was a. dare, you know. [laughter]. >> That's what I mean. This what I mean. Maybe maybe the public school system uh. I was not desensitized to and it would. be like uh you know I dare you to go up.

there and do this and I knew it was. wrong and I'm like I'm not doing that. I'll get in trouble chicken. I'm not a. chicken. I [laughter] mean I just go up. there and do it you know and next thing. you know I'm sitting in the principal's. office when my dad and mom come and. they're like what did you do? And I'm. like well I showed this picture for. propaganda for the class. Technically, what I showed was correct. It was. propaganda. It just wasn't I wasn't I. was I was a bad boy. >> What' your parents do? >> Um my my dad had a landscaper company.

His whole he built it. Um in that time. he had uh this was before your Lowe's. and Walmarts and Home Depots and stuff. like that. But um it was uh he had one. of the top three largest landscaping. companies in upstate South Carolina. Yeah. >> Right on. So that's what I grew up in. and I think that's where I got a lot of. my uh work ethic. Um my mom uh she. definitely a workaholic, a hard.

go-getter, smart book smart. Um dad hard. worker. Dropped out in the 10th grade. Street smart. >> Gotcha. >> Um but my dad would drop me off. The. bigger I got, the older I got, the more. stuff I had to do, you know, like now, okay, now you can carry this, now you. can do that. Till it gets to a point to. where I'm getting dropped off on the job. site. But here I am just a teenager. playing football and I'm working for my. dad's company and you got all these.

grown men looking at you like, oh, you. know, silver spoon, you know, like my. nose itching. Sorry. They're like, oh, silver spoon, you know, and these these. are older dudes. full beards drinking. whiskey in their coffee in the morning, smoking filter with cigarettes. So, the. only thing I could think to do was just. outwork them. And that's what I tried to. do. I'm like, I don't I don't want you. to think I'm. getting getting by cuz my dad's the. owner of the company. >> No. >> Yeah. I'm going to try to outwork you.

And that's. >> Not too many kids like that. >> No. And I just look at him. I'd be like, you know, we can get this job done. quicker if you stop all the cigarette. breaks. [laughter]. >> No How old were you when you when. you adopted that out? >> Probably 16, 17 somewhere in there. Yeah. >> Damn. >> Right on. >> And then uh you it's you don't think. about it then, but you look back at your. life or like doing the book. I'm reading. you're writing all this stuff and you're. like, man, I forgot about that. Oh, that's crazy. You know, but you can look. back and see, oh, this is where I. started forming that mentality. So,

yeah, I uh grew up in a Christian home, musicians, singers. Um, and you know, there were times where. like my family would be. singing at another church and we'd go. visit that church and they would sing. there, sing and play or it'd be a. startup church and we'd go help open it. and play. Um, so that's kind of I just. remember a lot of weekends going over to. my aunt and uncle's house and and all of. us uh I mean the kids are running around. eating ice cream and playing, but.

>> I just remember them in there playing. >> Right on. >> Yeah. >> Are you a Christian? >> Yeah. Christ follower. >> today. >> Yeah. >> Right on. >> Absolutely. Yeah. I uh um I actually I'm. a musician as well. I play at Faith. Promise. I did I did three services. Sunday. >> Oh, right on, man. >> Got to be there at 6:00 a.m. >> Right. [laughter]. Right on. >> On stage at 6:00 a.m. ready to go. Yeah. >> Brothers, sisters? >> Uh no, I'm single. Single child. Had. step brothers and step sisters, but it. was later on. Like I was already a. teenager, so I mean we connected a.

little bit, but not like growing up. >> [snorts]. >> What were you into in high school? >> Uh sports again and a musician. I uh uh. played football. That was my main sport. Started lifting weights a lot more. Um. and then uh probably 8th grade I started. picking up musical instruments and just. cuz I was watching and then I would. learn. I taught myself how to play the. drums. Um uh but I I started on bass and.

and then one day I went and grabbed my. mom's acoustic guitar and I did a full. chord and when I did it I was like I. like that. And then it's over the years. I've gotten better and better and you. know. >> Right on. Well, I think I read somewhere. that you got into Satanism or something. >> Yeah. Oh, you did? Did you? >> Yeah, I think I read that somewhere. So, how do you go from how do you how do you. go from. >> being in a good Christian Baptist family. playing at churches to getting into.

that? >> Uh, well, it again looking back I can. see what happened. Um, my parents got. divorced when I was about 13 or it all. started around 13. >> Um, but. they would I just remember them asking. me come up to me like, "Hey, are you. okay with this? You all right with. this?" this and I'll be like, "Yeah, I. don't care. I don't care." Actually, in. my head, I was saying, "I don't give an. F." You know, in my head, I'm like, "I. don't give an F." But, uh, that I don't. give an F started going into everything. that I chose to do. And I had a friend.

introduce me to witchcraft and Satanism. And this is in high school in the '8s. And, uh, you start studying Alistister. Crowley and and, uh, like books on. spells and witchcraft. and then uh. signing packs with the devil, things. like that. And and I went, "Yeah, I'm an. idiot." Actually, actually, I'm a very. blessed person cuz there was a lot of. people praying for me during that and I. didn't know it at the time. and they.

weren't sure what was going on with me, but I was being prayed over. And. I'd gone to, for the listeners, they may not even. remember a VCR tape, but you know when. you could go to Blockbuster or Pick a. Flick and Rent movies, uh, please. rewind, be kind, rewind, you know. >> No. Yeah, I remember [laughter] that. >> Um, but I I would go to the horror. section and I'd go a to Z and watch. every single movie they had. And uh I. started doing like these little skits, if you want to call them that, where.

like I would pretend to talk like Freddy. Krueger but worse. And and I would act. like a demon. And I was I was an idiot. I was losing my friends. I had a bad. attitude. And I'm talking about my. friends that in the book I put in there, we called ourselves the Brew Crew, but. we spelled it like Mley Crew. And that. was our high school group. And we're. still tight to this day. Um a matter of. fact, I'll be seeing them in a couple of. weeks. >> But uh they were starting to move away. from me. They're like, "Man, you got to. let that stuff go. We love you, but we. can't you can't put up with this stuff.".

And uh I would do I was just evil. Like. I'm not a huge hunter. Um I will hunt if. I need to. For some reason, I don't I. don't have a problem hunting birds and. stuff and I love fishing, but. during that phase, I shot everything. that came into my yard. And I was out of. cruelty. I was going through some I was. going through some stuff, right? >> What was the draw? Evil power. >> Power. >> Yeah. >> You got power out of that. >> Well, you think you do. You see what I'm.

saying? You like it's it can it can. corrupt. It can corrupt. And. it's it's a lot like what I what I saw. in my law enforcement career. You just. want to belong. You want to fit in. somewhere. And uh yeah, I was I was. pretty evil. So that's really why I. don't do it now. I don't have a problem. I have roommates, my best friends do it. We'll cook it up, whatever. But as far. as me pricing it out and learning what. all I got to do, I'm like, I'll just go.

to Kroger. I'll just get. >> I'll buy it there. But I was doing. things like I had a Volkswagen Bug, oddly enough, for my first vehicle. So, you got to get that worked on at a. different place, right? >> I don't imagine you driving a Volkswagen. bug. I know. [laughter]. So, you take it. The place we took the. car to to get fixed or worked on was a. Christian shop. And that's openly. Christian, Christian music, everything. And man, I would play like it would be. like maybe Halloween or some supposed. satanic band from the 80s. And I would I.

would set the cassette uh so when you. cranked up the car, it would be right at. a very horri horrifying part of the song. or something. And I would do that just. out of pure spite and evilness. So as. the story ends, um, one night I, uh, I. was doing this skit. We were drinking, no hallucinogenics, nothing like that, just beer. And, uh, I, I was, I was. spending a night at a house uh, and my.

buddy and his girlfriend were on the bed. and I was on the couch. And uh I was. acting like a scene that I'd seen in one. of the movies where it was a demon. possession. So I'm acting like my voice. is fighting the demon voice. And then I. would talk in the demon voice and then I. would talk in my voice and be scared and. be like, "No, no." And at the end it. culminates, the scene culminates with me. laughing like the demon because the. demon wins and it's now possessed me cuz. I saw that in the movie. And uh like.

again that I don't care that I don't. give an F. I was applying it to. everything. Um, and as I'm laughing like. the demon, I was facing the back of the. couch, but as I'm laughing like the. demon, I roll over. And as I roll over, what I see is like a watery image, but. it's red. It's uh, and it's like, you. know, you can see the ripples. And it's. a watery image in red. And it was a. demon or the devil, but it was a demon. looking at me. And it was smile. His. fingers are all like crooked with long. fingernails. And as I was laughing,

acting like I was being possessed and. rolled over and saw it, he was looking. at me smiling, going like this. saying, "Come here." And I screamed I. screamed a very high-pitched loud. scream. And from just here on the couch. to hitting the light switch right there. that quick, I was pale white. I was. pouring sweat, panting, breathing. And. my buddy Ricky jumped up and he goes, "What?" Because his girlfriend screams. like, "What the?" And and he goes, "What. is it?" And I looked at him and I said,

"If I ever do that again," I said. something to the effect of, "You have my. permission, you can take a bat, crack me. over the head with it." And he had been. telling me, you know, but it the room. just got super calm. And it was like it. wasn't even Ricky. It was like it was. like the spirit looked right at me and. said, cuz it just calmed down. He looked. right at me. He went, "I told you, didn't I?" And I was like, "Yes, you. did." And I didn't sleep that night. I. walked to church. >> Damn. >> I didn't have I didn't have my car. I I. hitched a ride over. And.

>> what did it look like? >> Huh? >> What did it look like? >> Uh the demon. >> Yeah. >> Just I saw red. So it was a red. background, red image and the demon was. red, but you could see the outline of. the demon. And you could see the face. was kind of stretched. >> Um and horns and just the the finger, man. This black. Yeah. Just looking at. me, smiling, saying, "Come here.". >> And that was it. That was it for me in. devil worshiping. I was done. >> That was it. >> That was it, man. So, I started. So,

yeah, I grew up Christian. Um, I. remember when I went to get baptized and. they asked you, they say, "Uh, so you've. been saved?" I said, "Yeah." They said, "Well, when were you saved?" I said, "Which time?" And they said, "What do. you mean, which time?" I said, "Man, I. went to a Christian school my first. seven years." And like every week or. every couple of weeks, they'd bring in a. new preacher and they'd go hellfire and. brimstone and they'd do an altar call. I. felt guilty at every one of them. I got. saved every time there was a preacher. that came there. [laughter].

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>> And you were interested in psychology. Yes. >> What got you interested in that? >> Uh, great question. Actually, my. parents, watching my parents go through. depression. Um, watching my parents go. through depression, watching uh, uh, from my understanding as a young. teenager that they went to a doctor, a. psychologist, psychiatrist, whatever. And that doctor gave advice of my dad. needs to leave. for whatever reason. And I'm thinking as.

a kid, I'm like, what? Why would they? Why? So that and then I watched my dad. suffer through depression when he was in. his 30s. I saw my mom and that kind of I. don't know. It kind of got me interested. once I saw that as I guess is an. elective in high school. I know it would. be an elective in college unless it's. your major or whatever. But anyway, I. saw those classes and I took them. Man, I mean be behavioral psychology, um, child psychology. I still got the books, you know. I It's like I I pull back on. that when I'm talking to parents today.

I'm like, "Listen, you need to. understand the development of the brain. and kids, and there's certain things. they don't need to be trying to process. and watch, like horrific slasher flicks. that look 100% real or playing certain. video games that look 100% real, you. know?". >> Yeah. >> So, >> cool. >> Cool. What got your interest in law. enforcement? >> Um, oh, I'm sorry. I'll go back on the.

psychology thing, too. Okay. Sorry. Um. trying to get a sip of coffee without. burning myself. Good. I didn't burn myself. Um I was. waiting, you know. Ow. Dad gum it. It's. too late for me. Sean, save yourself. [laughter]. I see the light. Uh so psychology I. started taking in high school and man, I. really was fascinated with it. So. several times in my college life it was. my major but I ended up majoring in.

criminal justice and I got a minor in. psych. But um they would have they I. took six hours two more classes I could. have got a double major. >> Right on. >> But I was I was out. I was when it was. when I graduated I was done with. college. >> Right on. So what did what what uh I. mean dad's a landscaper, mom's books. smart. What. >> what happened to me? >> Yeah. What happened to you? Why why law. enforcement? Um, [clears throat]. I guess. when I was in college, I started taking.

electives because I was changing stuff. around. I mean, at one point I had like. business as a major. At one point I had. like computers and that was before even. Windows and stuff was out. It was just. the old 1980s square. >> Uhhuh. >> You know, font, the square font. Um, but. I came across a criminal justice course. and I really loved it. I loved. criminology. So that's like the. psychology and sociology mixed in like. studying uh criminals after their death,

brains, you know, all kinds of forensic. stuff. I loved it. Um not so much like. the business law and tort law stuff you. have to take as well, but just that. whole enforcement thing. I don't know. I. really took to it and I was already. bouncing. So, as a bouncer, um, in. Charleston, South Carolina, some of the. places I bounced at, they had a cop. would work a side job there and be out. outside. And I just start like a sponge, man. Just started talking. And the first. time I went on a ride along, I was like, "Yeah, this is this is what I like. This.

is good.". >> Why? What happened? >> I don't, you know, I don't know. Uh, like I when I was playing college ball, it's it's very similar to this. I almost. I almost signed up for the Marine Corps. Uh, but I was already in college and I. remember dropping somebody off from. college. A kicker had a friend come in. uh who was at Paris Island. Um, and I'm. in Charleston, North Charleston. And he. needed a ride back and I had a car. So I.

they searched. Long story short, I uh. drove him. I said, "Look, I'll drive. down, but on the ride back, you're. driving me back and I'm studying cuz I. got a test the next day." So I'm at. Paris Island and I had a high and tight. It was just shaved all the way up. number one and maybe like actually. nothing all the way up and then just a. number one right there. So it kind of. looked like maybe I I should have been a. Marine, but I ate at the Burger King on. the base and I don't know what stripes. mean. I don't you know I'm a kid, you. know, and I'm getting these looks like.

why am I not saluting or something? And. I'm like I don't know what I'm supposed. to do. [laughter]. I'm really not supposed to be here right. now. Uh, but I remember I've always. thought that the the uniform was. awesome, but I remember it was like a. movie scene. The sun setting. I mean, it's breaking. It's going down. You can. barely see the what's left of the sun. and you hear it. and you see over the crest, man. You see. that flag coming and here comes the.

platoon. Dude, I got goosebumps right. now. I was like, some of the coolest. stuff I've ever seen. So, I thought. that's what I wanted to do. And I go. back to college, I got everything lined. up. I just got to sign my name to the. dotted line. And I go back to tell my. coach at college that I'm gonna miss a. football season. And when I come back, I'm probably going to be a lot lighter. Probably won't be that lineman weight. you're looking for. I'm probably going. to be more like a an end or something, you know, move me on out. Um, but he. said, "Why?" And I started telling him.

camaraderie, the discipline, the just. being a part of something bigger than. yourself and all this. And he he was a. son of a Baptist preacher. He said, "Son, we got that here. We're build. that's why we got the rock out there. We're building the foundation. We're. building this program on the rock." And. you got to we got dress codes. We got. this and hookline and sinker. That was. it. That's as close as I got to signing. >> Right on. So, uh, but yeah, the the the. college football, um, that was great. That was great. I wasn't.

the best. You know, I had a bad attitude. towards the end of my time, but it was. it really taught me a lot. Taught me a. lot about team. I can tell you that. >> I had the highest I mean, >> I think I had the highest grade point. average. I had a 3.8 my last two years. So, I I don't think that means I was. smart. I just know how to take notes and. I knew how the teacher talked. you know, I was good at memorizing, but uh. I signed up. I had it set up for me to. where I didn't have to go to class till. like 1:00 on Tuesdays and Thursdays. So,

I go out, party, do whatever, man, sleep. in, get a good workout, they had. mandatory sign in for breakfast. And. even though I didn't have to go to class. at 1:00, I had to go up there every. morning to sign in before 7, I think. And I remember talking to the coach and. I was like, "The purpose of this is to. make sure that the football players are. awake. You know, they're up and they're. going to class on time." They said, "Yeah." I said, "I've got one of the. highest grade point averages on this. team and I don't have to be in class to.

one. Why do I have to come in here. sign?". And that's where I learned about teaming. because everybody's doing it. And I was. like, "Wish I'd have known that. I'd. have set myself up for some classes. [laughter] I'm up anyway. Might as well. go to class, you know. I'll just sit. here and watch Days of Our Lives until. class starts or something. You know, >> Days of Our Lives, >> Young and the Restless. >> Oh, man. Man, >> that was back when we only had four. channels, you know. [laughter]. >> The old knob. >> Yeah, that's it, man. You were awesome.

when you had the remote control. Was. good stuff. Color. You can't hide money. >> So, where do we go from here? Um, you ask why law enforcement? I guess I. can go there. Yeah. So, when I started. taking those criminal justice courses, um, and like I said, I was already. bouncing and I was getting trained by. law enforcement and like pressure points. and control tactics and stuff like that. We were getting certified in that kind. of stuff even as bouncers. Um, I was.

just getting more exposure to it and I. just took to it. I don't know if it's. I've always had like a a bully of. bullies. I'm not trying to say I'm. tough. I mean, you're you're an awesome. tough dude. You had all kinds of people. on here. It's not a chess beating thing. It's just that I've always like the. underdog, I guess. I've always. uh I mean, have I been a bully in my. life? Yes. Do I regret it? Yes. But for. the most part, I was a bully of bullies. Like if I saw somebody picking on.

somebody that that was like, let's just. say football in college. Let's just you. say somebody's a starter. You know. they're starting. They know they're. starting. They're awesome. Um but you. got like a third stringer, third team. You know they're never going to start, but they got hard and they're out there. and they're trying. But you see that. starter roughing up the person even. after the whistle blows. Well, then. maybe that's when I'm coming full speed. and I'm putting putting it in your ear. hole. >> Nice. >> And go, "Oh, that's my fault, man. I. didn't hear the whistle blow. Sorry. Let.

me help you up." And then have a. conversation. that we can we can do this all day. [laughter]. or you can quit picking on that guy, you. know. >> That's awesome. >> If it's 50%, go 50%. Don't go 100. >> or we'll go 100 and then we'll see, you. know. >> I like that, you know. >> I wish more people were like that. >> Yeah. Well, it goes with the as as I. gotten older, it goes everybody's, you. know, warrior, warrior, but now warrior. is offensive. But really shepherd cuz in.

my mind I look at it like this. Not all warriors are shepherds. A warrior is going to go in there and. get it done whatever it takes. But not. all warriors are shepherds. A she but. all shepherds are warriors. >> I like that. >> If you're a shepherd, I mean, you're out. there. It's the flock. You're you're. you're a peace officer. You're. protecting to protect and serve. It used. to say it on every police car, you know. Um that's what you are. You you you'll. go after you'll leave the flock to save. the one.

>> So, what happened on the ride along? Anything in particular? >> Oh, well, goodness gracious. Anything. and everything was exciting to me. A car. stop, coming up to a burglary had. already occurred. I was Yeah, I was. sucking it up. >> What kind of questions were you asking. the guys that you were bouncing with? >> Uh, well, I mean, hiring standards, what. what's the try out like? You know, what. how long you been in it? Cool stories. You know, I'm I'm sure I was like. everybody else. You ever shot anybody? you ever been shot? That's like the. first question. [laughter].

How many people have you killed? You. know, that's not what that's not what. you ask them. Don't ask them that, you. know, but uh I loved it. And then I came. out of college with that 38 average uh. deans list the last two years. Um even. though I look and sound like trash, that. was all right on paper, you know. Um but. I couldn't get a job. Everybody I went. and applied with, I applied at four. different places. And they said at that. time they said, "Man, we really we uh we. they told me they liked it that that I. was a good candidate, but they weren't.

hiring white men at that time.". >> And I was like, "You serious?" Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, >> "Well, that would have been good to know. before I spent the last four years. majoring in this." So, I went to the I. went to the mall to be a mall cop and. they said I was overqualified. I'm like, "Well, how?" I'm like, "Bro, I'm just. trying not to bounce at a strip club.". You know what I mean? I'm like, this is uh So, I ended up. landing a uh security job and here I am. in a cheesy polyester uniform walking.

around turning the key all third shift. The first night I was like, "This isn't. bad." It was like a four-star hotel. You're walking around, you turn the key, and that lets them know that you're. hitting all your spots and you got food. and it's nice. That was the first night. The next night they put me on an. abandoned well it's abandoned on third. shift concrete plant on the inter. coastal waterway and it was me, God, and. critters and that was it. But it ended. up being a great time cuz I needed to do. some inner soulsearching. Um I I was.

heartbroke at the time and uh man it was. good to be alone by myself. Well, not. alone but to be alone with God. and I. would write and I would just, you know, for two months and then I was like, "Okay, enough of this, you know, I'm. gonna go get a job." And I I bounced at. a uh legitimate. country club called Desperados at the. time. It's not there anymore, but it was. at that time was the largest dance floor. in South Carolina. >> They have bouncers at country clubs.

>> Oh, yeah. >> I did not. >> Well, I mean, when I say country club, I. don't mean like golf country club. I. mean, >> you mean a country bar? >> Country bar. Yeah. Sorry. Country bar. Yeah. Gotcha. >> You bounc her to the country club. >> I was like, "Wait, what?". >> Legit [laughter]. full contact golf. Yeah. >> You got a guy with a sweater vest over. here acting up. >> Yeah, I know, right? Yeah, I know. I. know. [clears throat] Yeah. It's uh So, so I I. get a job at Desperados and I'm bouncing.

and I'm just buying my time and then. then I got the call from Greenville. County Sheriff's Office, which is the. hometown I grew up in. Right on. And I. went back and uh I went to the academy. and in uh yeah 93 I went to the academy. and came out and started in uniform. >> How was it? >> Oh, loved it. Loved it. My I wouldn't. really wouldn't mind going back right. now at 55. Yeah. And you you once you. pull out there, that's your office. You're in your car. >> You're going out and answering calls,

hopping calls. Um, but if I do bond back in, I'm going to. have to go full circle because I. bounced. I was a cop. I was a fed. So, if I bond back in and I'm a cop, whenever that's done, I got to at least. bounce for like 30 minutes. [laughter]. >> Where would you bounce? >> I don't know. Uh, maybe I'd ask Cotton. Joe's. That's that's a that's a country. bar in Knoxville, Tennessee. Maybe I'd. ask them. I don't know. >> Right on. You got any good stories from. bouncing? >> Oh my goodness. Tons.

>> Let's hear some. Yeah. Uh, so I I kind of I kind of said it a. second ago, but uh, when I first started. bouncing, I was bouncing in gentleman's. clubs, which is an oxymoron because I've. never seen any gentlemen in there. [laughter]. in any of them. And neither was I then. I was living in the flesh, as they say. back then. [laughter]. But, and this is coming from a guy who's. had all girls, you know, all girls, uh, girl dogs, everything's female, you.

know, a lot of estrogen in the in the. household. But, uh, yeah, I bounced. there. And I mean, it would be like two. bouncers. And really, that's where I. started learning my gift to gab and and. and verbal judo some people call it. Because if you go up and you've only got. two bouncers and let's just say there's. two bachelor parties in there, 15 a. party. You gonna take on 30 people? Are. you gonna go up and push and go, "Hey, stop what you're doing or spin them. around? Are you gonna go and go, "Hey. buddy, I know you're having a good time, but listen, you can't do that. Boss is.

going to get mad. They're going to want. me to kick you out." All right. Baseball. One strike, two strike, three. strikes, you're out. Some people are. obviously already out by the time you. get to them. But, uh, yeah. Uh, [laughter] the Hell's Angels would come. to the bar. Uh, I I bounced at. frequently. And uh I remember being in. some knockdown dragouts, being on the. bottom of the pile and and and I'm hit. every time I'm getting hit, I'm hitting. the dude at the bottom of the pile. Pile. starts getting lighter and uh you look.

and it's the Hell's Angels and they're. bringing they're picking everybody and. they're carrying them out and whipping. the trash out of them. And I'm like I. looked out when I looked the last thing. I saw was they had one dude uh one. Hell's Angel was holding the dude's head. on the motorcycle seat and the other. Hell's Angel was coming up and kicking. him right in the face. Yeah. >> I just set back up. I said, "That'd be a. $3 cover charge. Come on in." [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> So, I got I got that kind of exposure. And then you'd be in there bouncing and. it's like another bouncer. Two bouncers. Fight breaks out. Where were you? Well,

I was calling 911. The bartender can do that, man. The DJ. can do that. You're supposed to b Where. were you? I was stalking the cooler. [laughter]. >> Stocking. I'm starting to get this Clark. Kent Superman thing or this, you know, [laughter]. how come they're never in the same place. at the same time. >> Yeah, it was good. And then um. I moved on like I said. Uh and then. bouncing at Desperadoo. There was some. there were some knockdown dragouts.

there. There was one we call the I think. uh Charleston County referred to it as. the Clampetss because it ended up being. a whole family. It was after a Tanya. Tucker concert and uh. we had sectors earpieces we call it out. It was really cool because the DJ's. booth was up in the roof like you had to. climb the ladder to get in it so they. could see all across the bar and uh two. older guy and a younger guy were kind of. getting verbal pushy next to the. mechanical bull and uh my buddy went to.

break it up. What we didn't realize is. that was a father and son. And then here. comes mom with the stiletto bust my. buddy's head wide open. He I hear him. say, "Get this off me." He's he. raises up and as he raises up bullets. just pouring down his face. Now I was. young, didn't have as much control, not. near as much fight training. So when I. saw my best friend bleeding like that, I. was like that shark, [laughter]. you know that black. I was like, "What?". Choke slamming. Bam. We're fighting. You. choke somebody out, they drop. Then they. wake back up and they're fighting again.

It was like It lasted like 40 minutes. Holy Clearly, we didn't know. I. mean, I'll just say the fight skills weren't. as good. You know, we could have. probably ended it quicker. But to get. them to the door to Charleston County, and then everybody got arrested, but it. ended up being like. I mean, I think it was the son, the dad, the mom, there was a sister, a. girlfriend, there was a wife. I got. kicked square. That's the first time. I've ever been solidly kicked in the. testicles. I mean, it was spot on. It.

was It It was right on. And I'd always. heard up to that point in like. self-defense training and stuff that I. would hear instructors telling women. specifically, listen, you can kick kick. them in the nuts, but if they're. adrenaline's going, it might be better. unless you're doing like multiple. strikes like some crab mag like we're. doing multiple and we're not just. hitting them one, we're coming bam bam. bam bam bam to create distance and. stuff. But I'd always heard, you know, if your adrenaline's flowing, it might. not work. To which every guy would say,

it's going to work. Guess what? It. didn't work. Cuz the adrenaline was. flowing so bad when she kicked me. I was. I was straddled trying to pick her up. and she was in it. She kicked it and I. mean I felt my stomach pull and knot and. just start pulling down. But because the. adrenaline was so much uh it did it did. not stop me. Um now let's just say an. hour or two later. Yeah. I was. over there with the frozen peas, you. know. [laughter]. Yeah. I think I need to go to the.

hospital. But yeah, it was it was good. times. It was really good times. Um, and. then I got hired and I became a cop and. uniform patrol. Man, it was great. Um, I. learned a lot. Uh, but after 3 years, I'm made vice narcotics investigator and. that was that was when the bug that's. when that's when I go and I get. certified at the state level uh. undercover techniques and that's the. first time I do a drug buy. um at least.

for law enforcement. cuz when I was younger I did buy drugs. but it was for me. Um [laughter]. I had bought dope before. Um but yeah, now you're being trained by I'm looking. at I'm looking at people in the unit and. I'm just like a kid like I said in the. candy store. I'm just trying to be a. sponge cuz there was some cool cool. [snorts] dudes in that narcotics unit. and I'm just trying to learn. And uh. apparently I didn't learn fast enough. cuz I did I did get you can't pick your. own nickname. You know what I mean?

>> But I got the nickname little bus. >> How'd that happen? >> I guess I wasn't learning fast enough. [laughter]. [cough]. >> I would like to [clears throat] say it. could have been some of the training, but uh yeah. And then I then I graduated. to bus man, you know. >> Nice. And then I switched to uh I. switched over from Northern Command. narcotics. I went back to uniform for a. little bit because of a snafu with a a. former supervisor. Um and then I went to. Southern Command Narcotics and that's.

where I was at until I uh got picked up. by the FBI. >> What was the training like? >> Uh the training at FBI or. >> before? >> Uh it was awesome. Um I mean the police. academy I went through, you know, I just. thought about that. I went through the. police academy during the winter months. and I went through the FBI academy in. the winter months. I guess that's my. time. But uh always snow on the ground. >> When you got undercover, I mean, did. they. >> Oh, I'm sorry. The undercover training. Yeah. >> Uh it was good. I mean, it's a oneweek. school. Um you're probably not going as. indepth, but probably focusing more on.

like quick buys, quick scenarios, because. think of it this way. If you're a cop, and let's just look at that situation. I've been a cop for three years. Now all. of a sudden I'm a narcotics officer in. the county that I live in where I've. arrested a lot of people for three. years. There's only so many ways you can. do your facial hair or grow your hair or. change your clothes and cars before you. start getting known. Um so you're doing. quick stuff like rolling up, buying a. crack rock, driving around for 15.

minutes, come back, buy another crack. rock. Um hit uh you know go and and buy. weed and stuff like that. And we were. also vice. So we were working gambling. was illegal in South Carolina. Uh and. prostitution. So. >> do you have a favorite. of working dope? >> Working dope. >> Working dope. Yeah. >> Why? >> Working uh just the. at that level it's just a thrill. Just I. mean it's fastpaced. We're jumps out.

We're doing jump outs. Roll up in the. hood. High drug trafficking area. Whatever. If there's a high drug. trafficking area has been reported on a. lot. roll up, jump out, chase the jump. out boys, 50 coming around the corner. >> So, would you go after are you going. after low-level street dealers? You. going. >> Yeah, it may be. Now, you try to work. your way up, but think about it as far. as like going long-term undercover if. you're a task force officer and you're. working with the feds and they can put. you somewhere. Yeah. But I would say. it's going to be tough short of maybe.

like New York City. >> where it's so populated or maybe Miami, but it's going to be tough, I think, to. go deep undercover where you've been. known as a law enforcement officer. >> Mhm. >> Now, when I moved to Tennessee, nobody. knew me. Um I'd only been here 6 months. before I went full-time undercover um in. a rural county in East Tennessee. Um I. did that because yeah, nobody knew me. here. But once I once that case is done, yeah, I'm not now I'm overt Scott Payne.

and and I'm probably not going to be. doing any undercover in East Tennessee. >> I mean, I've heard it's damn near. impossible to do undercover work now at. this point in time. >> It's getting harder and harder. >> with facial recognition and all that. kind of. >> Exactly. I mean, with the I mean, just. picture. facial recognition and say I've got. three different identities. >> Yeah. >> But I show up and then or the or the. system's going to catch it. It's going. to be like, "Hey, this is the same dude. He got three different names, you know, something like that.".

>> Um, or going overseas. >> That's Yeah, that's where I've heard. that you're not even going to get a. pseudo passport or. >> Yeah. I mean, imagine games or anything. >> I thought about that when I retired. I'm. like, what I go overseas? >> What [clears throat] if I did? I mean, I. didn't, but what if I did go covertly in. the past and now I'm over there and that. thing hits and says, "Oh, that's Scott. Callaway." And I'm standing near Scott. Payne. You know, how do I explain that? Pretty sure I'm getting secondary. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> So, what kind of stuff are they teaching. you? >> Um,

>> is it all on on the job training or. >> Yeah, I mean, it's like good good. operational security. Um, probably for. that stuff, it's going to be more like. how to do a controlled by. So, in other. words, I'm going to be wired up. So, it. for me it goes hand to hand in operating. sources. Um, because somebody's going to. surveil you. We're going to cover you to. go in there. We're going to be. listening. You're getting the evidence. You're coming back out and then I'm. turning it over. Um, we got stuff like. that. And then you learn some laws and.

then you might get the techn technical. surveillance school. They kind of go. together. Now I'm learning how to wire. stuff up. Now I'm learning like I'm I'm. building coolers and putting cameras in. them and you know, stuff like that. But. that was 93. I mean, technology now. >> who knows what they can do. You know, a. lot [clears throat] of people think we. can do stuff we can't anyway because of. TV. You know, they think I've got like a. they think in this cross I've got a. listening device and I'm like, that's. awful small. How many hours I'm gonna. get recorded on that thing?

I always notice when somebody goes the. extra step. It does not have to be some. huge thing. It could be someone. following up when they said they would, giving you a straight answer, or taking. a little extra time to make sure the job. gets done right. that sticks with you. because it shows they actually care. And. if you're hiring, that same thing. matters. You don't just want someone. qualified. You want someone who actually. wants the job and is willing to go the. extra step. That's where Zip Recruiter. comes in. Candidates can tell you in.

their own words why they're interested. in your job, which gives you a better. read on who is really paying attention. And Zip Recruiter has a new feature that. shows you the most interested qualified. candidates first so you meet the right. people faster. Zip Recruiter's powerful. matching technology finds qualified. candidates quickly. And no wonder Zip. Recruiter is the number one rated hiring. site based on G2. Try Zip Recruiter and. meet great candidates who go the extra.

step for your job. Four out of five. employers who post on Zip Recruiter get. a quality candidate within the first. day. Try it for free. It's. ziprecruiter.com/srs. That's ziprecruiter.com/srs. ziprecruiter. Meet your match on. Ziprecruiter. >> How would you get yourself into a. gambling ring? >> Uh, it could be a source introduction. Somebody who's already going gambling. can invite me and go. But as far as.

working it, um, yeah, you develop. sources and we would set up and do. surveillance. Like you go from being. uniform patrol where everything's like. this and all of a sudden you're an. investigator and you're sitting in a car. for 12 hours or you're laying in the. woods for 10 hours and watching. developing patterns. But after a while, maybe a month or so now you know I can. show up at 11:15 cuz at 11:30 they're. going to come pick up their money. They. do it every Monday. That kind of thing. And you start learning and develop. sources and then get enough to get a.

warrant, search warrant and arrest. warrants and go in there and hit it. How. do you develop a source? >> Oh, there's all kinds of ways. Uh, I'd. say probably common, one of the most. common in law enforcement is somebody. gets arrested. They get arrested for. something else and maybe I'm arrest you. and I'm talking to you and I'm like, "Hey, you know, you can help yourself. out. You got any information on drug. trafficking, anything like this?" Oh, man. You know, I I know this gambling. ring. Okay, you can do that. Um, sometimes they refer to that as you got.

a hammer over your head, like we're. holding you on a charge. >> that you can help yourself. Um, or my. favorite is just developing. developing a connection with somebody. and then they're doing it. >> I I want to say out of the goodness of. their heart, you know, but sometimes it. is. Sometimes it's just patriotic. They. just want to do it. Sometimes it's. monetarily driven because I'm I'm paying. them, you know. >> How much would you pay them? >> It depends. Depends on where you're at. uh what the violation is and who. I. mean, obviously in the FBI, you can get.

into some highlevel sources where. they're getting like 150 grand, >> you know, >> for some big stuff. I'm sure you saw. similar stuff, right? >> Um but there's all kinds of techniques. Uh. it's that you can go to training, you. can read stuff like interrogations, how. to how to ask questions better. There's. training like that. But um for me with. sources, it was just. If let's say I've got something I'm. looking at and let's say let's go with.

the drugs. We got a high tra high. trafficing area. We know they're doing a. lot of dealing. We can't get anywhere. close. Maybe I can set up outside of. there. Have a uniform patrol. There's a. four-way stop sign on the way into that. dope. How many people roll through a. four-way stop sign? It's not hard to. develop probable cause to pull a car. over. Nobody drives perfect. You stay. behind somebody long enough, there are. so many traffic laws, you can find. something to pull them over for. Maybe. now you get somebody with dope in their. car and you say, "Where did you get it?".

And you're trying to develop it that. way. I'm like, "That's where I'm trying. to get to, but I'm over here." When it. was special interest alien smuggling on. the border, I would go to the Border. Patrol and I'd say, "Look, Border. Patrol, ICE, whoever it may be, and I'm. like, look, I'm specifically working the. DA Terry alien smuggling organization. If you guys come across anybody you. apprehend and they say they're being. smuggled by her, call me no matter what. time because I'm trying to build a case. and I might get it that way. And it. might be two in the morning, say, "We. got somebody and they're being smuggling. by her organization." I'm like, "Cool, we're on our way." Go and start doing.

interviews and try to start building a. case. >> Right on. Really all you're doing is. essentially you're trying to either show. that yes, there are crimes being. committed and you gather evidence of. that and charge them or you go in there. and you go there are no crimes being. committed. but we proactively went and investigated. it. >> How about prostitution rings? >> Uh yeah, I mean we did that. Um, that. was eye opening as as a young narcotics.

vice narcotics investigator because I. was like, "You mean. in high school I could have just came. over here with 20 bucks and I could have. gotten this?" I'm like, I'm not saying I. would have done it, but I'm saying I'm. glad I didn't know as [laughter] a young. kid. I'm like, whoa, I probably would. have made some bad decisions. But uh you. go over there and we would we would pick. up the girls sometimes and and roll. through and get the prostitutes and then. get them locked up and then we would put. our women out there and we would pick up.

the John's coming. Now that's super. there's some very there's been very bad. things that have happened on cases like. that where the cover team loses the the. female and something bad happens, you. know. So you got to be there's nothing. to be lax about at all. You got to be. have some choke points set up. have a. reaction team ready, eyes on all the. time, especially if they get in a car. with somebody. There's all kinds of. things you got to think about. But I. will say that it was eye opening for me.

at that age and and that level of. knowledge to see who was coming. >> What do you mean by that? >> Preachers, pastors, uh uh elected. officials, you know, you're like, "Wow.". >> No way. Politicians. >> What? I know. It's ridiculous. That's. crazy. >> The most standup human beings in the. world. >> US politicians. >> Next thing you're going to tell me that. drugs are coming across the border. [laughter].

>> What? This is ridiculous. No way. >> That's absurd. Politicians wouldn't get a prostitute. [laughter]. >> Oh man. >> Yeah. But that, like I said, at that. point in my lifetime, it was shocking. uh later on I'm like eh you know um. actually very good source potential if. you I mean think of who's what a street. worker may have knowledge of a lot of. stuff on the street.

>> you know. >> do you ever arrest any. uh like public figures like politicians. pastors whatever. >> I know I've been on I know I've been on. arrest teams not my case personally. But like big roundups or whatever. Yeah. Um. or. >> were there people that were off limits. that you just had to let them go? >> Not to my knowledge. >> The mayor. >> Not to my knowledge. Not to my not to my. knowledge. But I will say on a local.

level, there were times where you arrest. somebody and everybody always says, "I. know the sheriff. I'm gonna call him.". Well, you can call him and tell him that. Scott Payne has you in handcuffs and. you're going to jail. [laughter]. But there were times where the phone. call did work [laughter] and it was. like, "Let him go." I'm like, "All. right." You know, I mean, you signing. the checks, you know, >> you do see some of that, but for the. most part for me, I didn't see any I. didn't see anything like that like. untouchables. I'm sure it happens. You. know, I'm not naive, but me personally,

no. >> What about uh you know, you were talking. about females going undercover as. prostitutes. Did you ever were you ever. on a case where one of those went wrong? >> Not me personally, but I have seen. females I've known females that go out. and speak and I've got u uh peers that. run undercover training and and they. they they have people that have. happened. It's just again, I mean, think. about it. It's if you lose the eyeball. on that person or they hop in that car,

dude takes off. I mean, it's. I don't know. I don't know how they do. it now. Um cuz in the bureau when I was. doing anything like that, it was more in. the hotel room or we're going out. We're. we're answering that when it was all on. back page and stuff like that. We're. going and uh it's operation cross. country uh is we're out there and we're. trying to we're not we're not. necessarily trying to charge a. prostitute. It's not a federal crime. anyway. We're trying to recover underage. uh boys and girls being trafficked and.

we're trying to go after the pimps and. the and the traffickers themselves. >> That happens a lot. Huh? Yeah. So, um, yeah, usually there's always a pimp. Like I've I I've even actually believed. I'm like I'm like, "Nah, this one. doesn't have a pimp." And they follow. her they follow her out when she leaves. She gets in the car with a pimp. I'm. like, "Dad, she was lying to me and I. believed it." You know, but then then we. try to get them uh or try to uncover uh. information. >> Why do they all have a pub?

I I think for me I believe it would be. more so if you don't have a pimp, you might be getting in trouble. Like. the pimp maybe somebody's like, "Hey, that's my corner. That's my territory. Who's representing you?" If nobody's. representing you, well then you better. get some representation or this is going. to happen to you every day, blah blah. blah, you know. Gotcha. >> Um and there's madams, you know, like. the escort services. I'm I was calling. and we were ordering up and and and they. had different numbers. they had. different numbers. You just send in like.

yellow pages or something, but just say. there's just different escort services. listed or whatever and you're calling. Well, they're they're like on a trunk. line. They're all going. It's like AAA. escort service, uh mom's escort service, but we're calling and even though it's a. different number, I guess they've got a. bank or something. And it was the same. woman. >> Gotcha. >> And they'd be like, "Where are you. from?" And I'd say, "I'm from the South. Can't you hear my accent?" "Yeah." what. are you doing up here? Oh, you know, whatever my story is. I'm blah.

Finally, the madam [laughter]. the the madam that runs the escort. service gets on the phone with us. She. goes, "Scott, I just talked to you a. minute ago." And I go, "What? All right, listen. Clearly, you know, we're not. after you. We're trying to find other, you know, clearly this room's burned, you know." But I'm like, "How. many can you tell me how many of these. businesses are you so I don't call you. anymore tonight?" you know, [laughter]. you know, I'm like, I'm sorry. You know,

we're just trying to work, you know. >> Oh, [laughter]. >> She goes, "Quit calling." I said, "I'm. not that this like the fifth place I. called and you get on the phone.". [laughter]. >> And then I call another one and it'd be. like I'd go, "Hey, I was trying to go. It's still us." Scott, damn it. I'd hang. up, you know, >> like the Somali Learning Centers up in. uh Minnesota. [laughter]. They don't. They're They're not legit. >> No, I'm sure they're legit. >> I'm sure. I'm sure.

>> Damn. So, how'd the FBI pop on your. radar then? >> Uh, my sergeant when I went to Southern. Command, my sergeant, Sergeant Kell, uh, former Marine, built like a bulldog, popey forearms, had the foo man shoe, looked like a bulldog, and at that time my nickname was. Kingpin. And we were on a long. surveillance one day and he said, "Kingpin, if I was young like you and I had a. four-year degree and I was single," he.

said, "I'd [clears throat] apply for the. FBI and I'd put New York down as my. office." And I said, "Dude, what are you. smoking?" Cuz at that time, I didn't. realize everything the FBI worked. I. knew they worked bank robberies. That's. the only time I thought I ever saw them. really. Um, I didn't know the FBI worked. everything. Title 21 and Title 18. I. mean, you want to work alien smuggling, you want to work drug trafficking, you. want to charge felony and possession, got it all. And um. he told me that it was harder to get. hired by them. It was a hard it was a. harder hiring process. And I'm not. knocking any other agency before I get.

hate mail or get texts from my friends. who are from other agencies. Um but. that's what I'd heard and I applied with. him first. uh once he started saying. that to me and it was funny cuz I. started looking and really I was looking. at where I was going to be in 5 years. cuz at that point I was I was at the. sheriff's office for almost 5 years and. this happens almost everywhere. It. wasn't just Greenville County council. would giving themselves raises but they. weren't giving the cops raises. It got. so weird because the entry level pay if.

you came in as a brand new officer. It. was going up, but we weren't getting. raises. So, it might pass you. Like, you. could literally quit, come back with a. four-year degree, and make more money. than you're making. And you, if you. looked at it, you were never going to. max out before retirement. There there. wasn't any way. So, we started doing. like almost protests. We would show up. at the county council meetings, full. uniform. If you weren't on duty, show up. in your uniform, mass numbers, bring the. news. and they finally started giving us. some raises, but I just looked at where. would I be financially and it's clearly.

it's not all about money. Why would I go. into law enforcement, you know? >> Um, but I looked at the FBI and in 5 years, as long as you don't get fired and. really as long as you don't lie under. inquiry, I mean, I've seen I mean, maybe. things are different now. I don't know. I I don't know how they are now. Uh, I've retired 5 years ago, like I said, but. I as long as you don't lie, you you might get dinged. You might get. 30 days on the bricks. You might get.

demoted, but you're not going to get. fired. So, at 5 years, you'll be a GS13. And that's pretty good pay. And then you. would max out at 1310 before you retire. And that's what I did. I maxed out at. 1310. But I was looking and I started. applying. And I remember the hiring. process like the physical fitness test. that was cool. I dieted down back then I. was a bigger bigger boy but uh I dieted. down to 252 and I went in with like 9%. body fat. >> Damn. >> Yeah. I felt jacked. Um but as soon as I.

could soon as I got out of Quantico I. was back eating and lifting like I. normally did and I was back to like 275, you know. But um I I applied I took the. test. Uh, phase one is like a lot of. questions and a lot of big math part and. then there's something else. And I. remember going in there, Sean, I was. like [laughter]. I was like, um, uh, I'm looking and I'm dressed up, but I. showed up with long hair and a beard cuz.

I told them I said, "Do I need to cut my. hair to do this phase one test?" And. they said, "Are are you doing actual. undercover buys right now?" I said, "Yeah." As a matter of fact, whenever I. finish the test, I'm driving back and. going on shift tonight and probably. going to make a cocaine buy somewhere, you know. And they said, "Then you can. keep your hair that way." So, I was. getting eyes looking at me anyway, right? So, you got military people. applying. They're in their full uniform. They're in their dress uniform. You got. accountants, lawyers, that math part. I. was like, I know I said I had a 38. I.

don't remember any of this. I tried to. study geometry and algebra again and all. this stuff. And I was like, [laughter]. when we come walking out of the math. section, I'm looking at accountants. going, there's no way I passed that. I'm. looking I'm like, well, I'm not even. going to sweat it then, cuz if you. didn't pass it, I know I didn't pass it, man. You know, and uh it turns out I. passed. I don't know. I I don't know if. that portion was in there just to rock. you mentally, you know, like you do all. these questions like, "No, I don't think. my mom's sexy. No, I'm not fascinated.

with fire. No, I don't like harming. small animals." 400 questions later, maybe you slip up and say, "Actually, I. do like Harman Small." You know how they. do that, the psychological stuff. And. then they break you with like a math. thing and you come walking out going, "I. don't know." And then you come back with. more 500 something questions. So maybe. you slip up and it shows up. But I did. that. I did the polygraph. I told you I. applied with four different uh two three. sheriff's offices in and North. Charleston Police Department. Um so a.

polygraph on every one of them. Uh, the. FBI polygraph. Wow. Was it way more. thorough. I think I was in the box, the. chair for three and a half hours. And I. wasn't lying. [laughter]. I'm like, I don't know what you want me. to tell you, man. I don't know what's. skipping. I don't know. You know. >> what are they asking you? >> Uh, drugs, prostitution. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, this is this is the funny. part. So, I'm a narcotics officer at the. time. So, the question was, "Have you. done any illegal narcotics in the last.

10 years?" And I said, "It's going to be. close." And they were like, "What?" I. said, "Well, right at the 10 year mark.". I said, "I did like Diana ball." I said, "But it was like 8 cc." No, I can't remember how much was in it, but. I stretched it over it was like 10 cc's. and I stretched it over 8 weeks. I'm. like, I was like, it's not even I didn't. know what I was doing. It's not enough. to make my bass hand any bigger, you. know, but I I didn't know what I was. doing. And they go, "No, that's fine.". And then uh so that's the question. Any. illegal narcotics in the last 10 years? And I said, "No, done. Next question.

Have you smoked marijuana in the last 3. years? Again, that's not now. This is. 1993. Oh, sorry. 98. I'm getting hired by the. FBI. 98. Uh, narcotics officer. I know. what's illegal. >> Uh, [laughter]. yeah, I got you. Well, now I did that. Yeah, I did that. But he goes, "Have you. have you smoked marijuana in the last. three years?" And I was like, "Is that a. trick question?" He said, "No." I said, "Dude, marijuana is an illegal narcotic.

I just told you I haven't done illegal. narcotics in the last 10 years." And he. says, "Oh, well, you could have smoked. weed up until 3 years ago." And I went, "Okay, no. Answer is still no." And then. he's like, "Um, well, how many times would you say you. smoked it?" So, this is where it got way. more thorough. It's like, "Yes, I've. smoked weed before, but it was like, did. you I mean, it starts breaking it down. like, did I package it? Where did I. store it? Did I buy it? Did I give it to. anybody? Did I sell it to anybody? And. I'm like, "Bro, I can answer all your. questions with just a few statements." I. said, "I was the guy that would give.

money and then somebody would go get the. dope and it would come back to the. party. You smoke what you could and then. it would go, whatever's left goes with. somebody else." I said, "One time, one. time I brought it home and I hit it and. this is my parents already divorced. I'm. with mom. I hit it and it was like the. telltale heart that story, man. I hit it. and I was like, I'd wake up going or. that that commercial where the dog keeps. burying the bone and hiding it. I'm. like, she's going to find it. And I'd go. put it somewhere else. I'd lay down. I. go, she'll find it there. I'd go move it.

some. I bet you I moved it 20 times. I. didn't sleep. And I'm like, I'm never. bringing weed to my house again. You. know. Um, but when I did that, he says, he's answered me. >> I heard it makes you paranoid. >> Yeah, [laughter]. he can. Yeah, I like it now. I'm. retired. Retired. They're like, "Now, [laughter] if you hit the sativa, it's. going to jack you up. You may have to. take a like a like a larzazzipam or. something." I go, "Weed that jacks you up that you have to. take a that makes no.

>> That's not why you do it." Anyway, but. [clears throat] uh so he's asking me and. I said, "Listen, I put my money in this, that, and the other." I said, "I brought. it home one time." I said, "I've. actually bought it at the place once or. twice." And he's like, "Well, how many. times would you say you smoked it?" And. I'm like, "I don't know, man." And it was like. it's been since like 1989, you know. And. he's like, he goes, "Well, would you say. no more than 15?" And I went, "Yeah, that sounds good." Then he jumps on the. table. Bam. You think this is a joke? You think? And while he's yelling at me.

now, I'm panicking in my head. I'm like, 15 joints, 15 nights, 15 pounds? I don't. know. [laughter] And I'm like, I like I. don't know, man. 15 15 sounds good. And. in my head, I'm thinking, okay, no one look at narcotics in 10 years. with the exception of weed within three. years and no more than 15 times. How'd. you come up with those numbers? And I'm. thinking, whose kid needed to be hired? >> Yeah, good point. >> that that had smoked weed in the last. three years, but no more than 15 times.

How you come up with those numbers? So, anyway, it's pretty funny, but I passed. clearly. Um, and then you do uh you do. another phase two which is like. interviews and stuff. And if you if. you're blessed or I consider it blessed. um I got the letter saying, "Hey, you've. been selected new agents class blah blah. blah be in Quantico 927 and 98.". >> Right on. >> Bam. And then I'm there. >> How was training? >> I I liked it. I liked it. It was um.

it was cool cuz they have different dorm. rooms there, but the Jefferson dorm, you. get your own room. The Madison and. Washington dorms, which at that time, one of those was being used by DEA. before they built their own academy at. Clonico. But those were suites and, you. know, two bed twobedroom sharing a. bathroom thing. And uh it was so packed. when we got there, our class actually. got the Jefferson dorm, so you had your. own room. Um, at one point they were. talking about moving us back and I mean.

I went to the counselors. I'm like I've. been a cop, you know, been on teams and. stuff. I'm like, other than us being on. different floors, I said this is the. same thing. Everybody's doors propped. open. They were worried about the. camaraderie, you know, and without that. effect, you know, we want that whole. team concept. I said it's a team. concept. So, we stayed there and it was. good. Um, but I called that place the. Biodome. I I've been in that thing for. 3, four days and realized I haven't been. outside. I've not had one breath of. fresh air cuz you go from your room to.

the cafeteria to class, maybe to your. room to the cafeteria to class, go to. the gym. Uh if you did do PT, you ran. outside. But other than that, I mean, I've been walking around and go, "Holy. crap, I've been in this thing for 3 days. like a gerbble, you know, in a gerbble. tunnel. I got to get and you like bust. the door like some fresh air." But uh it. was good. I I had a really good time. And again, I went through the winter. months. Um, so our yellow brick road run. got snowed out, but we went on a a nice.

long point run in the snow. It was fun. >> Nice. >> I wasn't the fastest, but uh uh my. instructor, uh, Crawford, he was like. 69. Uh, Crawford, he would he would tell me, "Hey, big fella, you think you'd bring. up the back?" You know, cuz we'd have. some scragglers getting strut out. And. I' I'd do that, you know, come up. If it. be me and like like I'm not at the best. in shape. I'm the biggest on paper for. my class. But you see coming up that. gravel road have about four or five.

stragglers. Come on. Yeah. Yeah. Get up. that hill. [laughter]. I'm like, what do you weigh? 120 lbs. You should be You should have finished. 10 minutes ago. Get your butt up there. >> What kind of stuff? Uh I mean, what did. you want to do in the FBI? Did you want. to go undercover again? >> Dope. Yeah, definitely undercover. Dope. SWAT. Um, I uh I did get New York City. Oddly enough, [laughter]. you have 56 field offices. So, you list. them 1 through 56. Um, but really in my.

mind after all the years, I'm like, they. should just let you list your top 10. And if you don't get your top 10, send. me where you're going to send me. >> cuz man, you rack your brain. You're. like, okay, I don't want them to think. this. I'm going to start southeast. I'm. gonna work my way up the east coast and. I'm going to end over here. I don't want. to be out in Alaska. one of you know. it's and we we all say a joke that they. got a monkey they blindfold and just let. him throw a dart at the map and that's. what you get [laughter]. that blind monkey back there throwing it.

but uh it in 98. um. we go by the fiscal year like October. right um so in 98 at the beginning of. the year FBI had been loading up. Washington field office because of the. Africa embassy bombings so at the end of. the here. Uh your big offices like. Chicago, LA, New York, San Fran, they're. all screaming going, "Hey, we need. bodies." Um so the last three classes of. the fiscal year, uh we got hit and 15.

out of my class got New York City. I had. New York was like 36 on my one through. 56. I just worked my way up, but I got. New York. And then you go there and it's. uh because it's the biggest field office. and it's a big city, they put you. through like a rotation. You don't just. get right on the squad. You're going to. work the applicant squad to give you. time to learn the city, how to get to. work, where your placard works, where it. doesn't, shortcuts. Um but it also is a.

time where you can pawn yourself off to. help other squads cuz there's always a. rest going on. And I I immediately. started working into the dope squads. I. went to the drug they had a drug branch. prior to 911. Had a drug branch and um I. mean you had an Italian drug squad. Um. an Asian drug squad. We had C33 which I. think was mostly black gangs, but we had. a Colombian and a Dominican squads. Uh.

Haida. It was it was big. And I went. over there and started saying, "Hey man, I'll help. This is my background. I'll. help whatever you need. would love to. get, you know, and that's what I started. doing. And I I'd be the first one there, last one to leave, um, pull. surveillance, do paperwork, whatever you. want me to do to kind of earn a name for. myself. And then when it came time to go. to an actual squad, um, they were going. to put me on [laughter]. they were going to put me on a foreign. counter intelligence squad, which for me.

at that point in time would have been. like watching paint dry. I was I was. been fish out of water stuff, but. the supervisor that had been over me. said, "Hey, now this guy, he's he's got. a good drug background. He needs to be. going to the drug branch." And they put. me on I I was told I was going to the. Haida squad, highintensity drug. trafficking area squad. And uh I got a. phone call from the supervisor of the. Colombian drug squad that I worked with. a good bit. And he said, "Hey, I just. wanted you to know that uh I found out.

you're going to Haida." And I said, "Yes, sir." And he said, "Well, I'm in pretty good with the ASAC and the. SACE. They like our squad a lot, and I'm. just calling you because I remember you. saying you'd like to come to our squad.". And I'm just letting you know I can make. that happen. Um, but if you want to go. to Haida, I mean, you go, I'm like, I'm. not an idiot. And we got a supervisor. calling saying he wants you, you know. I. said, absolutely. I'd love to come. Columbia Drug Squad. And that's what I. got. >> And that's why I was on for three years. And uh I landed an undercover. I was.

already doing cameos. >> and. what do you mean. >> like a well cameo? Just like just like a. cameo and a and a TV show or something. Okay. It's like I'm not going deep. undercover. Uh for instance, >> let's say LA takes off 3,000lb weed. shipment or a cocaine shipment. >> and they pop it there, but they know. that it was supposed to come to New York. City. Well, they cut a lead. We get on. the phone and we're like, "Okay, we need. to know what the package looks like.".

All that stuff. We make the package the. same way. And now we can go deliver that. package to the targets that were going. to get it. And it depends on your It. depends on the assistant United States. attorney you're working with. Some may. want more evidence. Some may be happy. with just this much. Like, "Hey, you. deliver it. They take control of it. Pop. them." Some may be like, "No, I want to. actually know that they were planning on. opening it." Okay. Well, how do we do. that? Maybe we build something with a. switch in it. So, we we deliver it and.

me and another NYPD detective, Cameo. We. roll up. I don't I'm not showing you ID. I'm not doing all that. It's just. rolling up, delivering it, drop it off, and then the team's waiting, and when. the thing gets popped, they said, "Hey, man." They just pop the box, then go in. and arrest everybody. >> Right on. Right on. So, you remember. your first big bust? >> Uh, in the FBI, man. So, in New York, you would get big licks. I do remember. seeing the first time I saw like a. 100,000 plus ecstasy pills. I didn't. realize how much floor space that would.

cover. I was like, that is a lot of. pills. [laughter] Goodness. Walk in, it. looks like Froot Loops are everywhere. I'm like, goodness gracious, that's a. lot of pills. Um, saw some decent. seizures of cocaine, too. But I leave. New York uh and I got a specialty. undercover transfer. I was actually. assigned to New York when 911 happened, but the day of 911, I was undercover in. San Antonio, Texas. So, as soon as I. could fly commercially, as soon as they. opened up the airways, um I flew back. and helped cover some leads down at.

ground zero and stuff. But I but my. transfer was already kind of in motion. at that point. And my my boss who said. Joe Demerest, he said, "Hey, uh Columbia. Drug Squad, I can make it happen." when. 911 happened, he was the acting ASAC and. he ended up running pretty much the. command post and everything. So he told. me, he pulled me to the side and he. said, "Listen, go out there, work with. your brothers and sisters. Don't pick up. anything though because if you get. wrapped into this, they're going to. cancel your transfer." He said, "Go out,

work, but in other words, don't pick up. a case cuz you'll lose your transfer.". >> Gotcha. >> So, I appreciated that. And then I went. to the border. So, you go to the border. One of the first things we get called. out on, it's like 3,000 lbs of weed. um. >> 3,000 lbs of weed. >> I mean, you're on the border. You're on. the border. But I say that, >> but picture somebody working in Miami or. one of these big ports and they pop a. hole of a ship and you got like, I don't. know, 1,000 kilos of cocaine. You're. like, >> so the bigger the stuff, you know,

bigger you might. 3,000 lbs in South Carolina would at. that point in time would have been. ginormous. It would have been a huge. bust. But on the border, you know, you. can. >> What is 3 lb 3,000 lb of weed? Look, what what is it? A semi? >> No. Uh uh I'll tell you what. I had an. extended cab long bed Chevy. We loaded. that thing. I mean, I'm literally in the. truck weed over my head right here. driving like this. And we loaded another. truck. So, yeah. I mean, they were in.

big bales, you know, and then bullet. casings everywhere because it was a rip. Um they called them pseudo cops. So, you. got cartel. uh uh or gangs and what they're doing is. they'll go get the uniforms. They'll. have the exact same year model make of. uh either the ambulance or the border. patrol truck painted exactly the same. and they ride around doing hits. Um so. what that particular case I'm talking.

about was it was it was a rip. They came. over like they were the police. Hey, police, you know, I mean, open the door, all. this other, but it's a rip. They're not. real cops. They're either gang or cartel. members and they're ripping them. And I. mean, there was blood trails everywhere. and and uh you know, now you're trying. to figure out the case, who's where, checking the hospitals, and you're like, check the hospitals in Mexico. And uh. then the Mexican officials through our. liaison go over and they do their. interrogation.

They got a confession, but the report I. read said they took the pencil and stuck. it in the gun wound and twisted it. And. that's when the guy confessed. And I'm. like, "Yeah, we can't do that here in. the States. That's called we have a. constitution. I can't do that. That would be that would be bad.". [laughter] But I appreciate you getting. the confession, you know, in another. country. >> So, do you like San Antonio or New York. better? >> Working. >> Uh, working. Uh, I will say I will say.

the San Antonio division. I was down in. Macallen um on the border. I will say. that because that's where I learned how. to really be a case agent from beginning. to end. I love New York. I had a good. time. But for really the whole third. year I was undercover. So the two years. you're on a big squad and you're new. You don't know how to take a case from. beginning to end. even though I was a. previously a cop and an investigator, but maybe I'm the guy that's young with. no family and I'll stay out on the late. hours with the surveillance squad, you.

know, with the NYPD detectives and then. maybe we got a case and it's like, "Hey, Scott, back cuz back then they were. still using beepers." So, I would go. down to World Trade Center weekly and. cuz there was a beeper place in there. I. can't remember which one it was Motorola. or what, but you had to get a cord order. and stuff and uh maybe a search. I don't. know if we had to get a search war back. then for it, but clone the beeper. So, bad guys beeper, we go there, clone it. So, every every text, every beep you're. getting uh sent to you, I'm getting a. copy of it. And I'm over here and I'm.

breaking down. Oh, okay. Uh I'm breaking. down their code. I'm like, all right, so. that's a kilo. All right. They're. meeting this dude at 44th or whatever, you know, 144th and say you do good on. that case. Well, the next case opens up. They go, "Hey, man, Scott was great with. surveillance and and doing the beeper. thing. Let's let him do that again." So. you might get pigeon holed and I just. didn't I just didn't get enough time to. uh work a case from beginning to end on. my own. >> when I got to Macallen. Yeah, that's. when I do that. That's when you do your. first case and you're putting it. together for prosecution and you're.

looking at the binder going that's. pretty thin. I'm like, man, I should. have taken more pictures. I should have. made more recordings, but by by a third. case, it's airtight. Right on. Well, let's take a break and then we'll get. into some more on work down on the. border. >> Let's do it. I used to dip all the time when I was in. the SEAL teams. Nicotine was just part. of the day. It was a ritual. So, I. understand why guys reach for it. You. want that pouch. You want focus. You.

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show and helps us continue bringing you. independent conversations without. compromise. Visit sha ryanshow.com. and grab yours today. All right, Scott, we're back from the. break. We're getting ready to get into. what you were doing down in San Antonio. >> Yes. Uh so I did do undercovers while I. was there. Um but they were out of town. I was a case agent as well, so Well, a. lot of people I think one of the.

misconceptions a lot of people think if. you're undercover, you're undercover. full-time. We do have that in my. experience is very rare. So, you're. still an agent on a squad. So, if I'm in. Macallen and I leave for a week to go do. an undercover somewhere, when I come. back, my boss is expecting me to be a. case agent, not just an undercover. and. they're looking at their squad going, "Hey, I know you're doing undercover over. here, but that doesn't give me credit on. my squad, and we got these measures and. marks we got to hit." So, you just I.

just tried to be. >> a go-getter, be a big hitter on the. squad, have big cases. >> You're not able to concentrate on one. specific thing full-time. >> It's rare in my experience. I mean, now. Jack Garcia, Jack Garcia was in New York. City. I think he was pretty much working. non-stop undercover. But New York City. is the largest office we got. So maybe. it's a little easier to kind of. >> Yeah. >> blend fade away. You know what I mean? Like um but if I mean I get it if I'm a. manager of a squad and I know I I know.

our threats are this and we need to be. working them and and I know even. especially if you know somebody who is a. good worker and they're a ghost, they're. not at their desk and they're not. working. So my emmo kind of was actually. it is my emmo. It's been my whole career. is to try to be above average. Um. not you can't be better than everybody. I mean maybe you can I don't know. I'm. just saying try to be above average. So. if I am succeeding and I'm one of the. top producers as far as cases, sources.

being developed, um I felt like that. gave me uh a tool to argue back to. management to say, "Hey, let me go to. this SWAT call out. Let me do this SWAT. school. Uh let me participate at the. undercover school. Let me do this. undercover, and you're going to see that. I'm not going to slip, that you're going. to still have these stats and stuff.". And that's what I did. and until. sometimes to my own detriment. But um. but when I was down there, I was working. a lot of cartel stuff. Obviously, when I. got there uh as a case agent, working.

drugs and then this new thing started. coming up and it was based special. interest alien smuggling. So, we're kind of working alien smuggling. organizations, but what we're looking. for is anybody being smuggled into the. United States from a threat country. So, China, uh, Russia, um, things like that, and that's what you're looking for. Um, so it's the same cartel. When I was down. there, Ozel Cardanis was the head of the. Gulf cartel. And as violent as it was,

at least there was some kind of SOP. They have some kind of standard order. procedures, right? Um, like if they. kidnap somebody and we get hold of it as. the FBI gets a hold of it. Now I'm over. here and I'm calling, you know, you call. into my squad and maybe I get the call. and it's like, "Hey, uh, my son's been. kidnapped. The cartel's got him." And. they tell him they're going to kill him. if we give him this. We don't give him. money. And what I would do is I would. come back on those cases and I'd say, "Look, I need you to be honest with me.

because I'm not doing a drug. investigation. I'm working an. investigation trying to get your son. back who's been kidnapped and you're. being extorted." Right. Um, but I need. to know the truth. Is there dope. involved? And it starts, the lies start. I'm like, listen, if you lie, I'm going to hang up the. phone. Be truthful. I'm telling you, I know you. may not trust me, but this is what this. what we're trying to figure out. And. then it would come out that Yeah. Sometimes, um, dope's missing. Like, uh, one of the last big ones I worked there,

uh, is my case. uh three I say kids they. were like 19 20 21 uh they were in way. over their head. What they were doing. was muing but. they would be told by the cartel drive. this car and it would drive from. Macallen to Dallas. Well they're being. followed by the cartel. When it gets to. Dallas they stop at a a mall. So the. kids go in the mall and they stay there. Cartel member gets in that car. They go.

to the chop shop or wherever they're. going. They open up the trap. They take. the dope out. Put the money in. They go. get the kids. Kids now they kids drove. dope up. They don't know what's in the. car. Drive. I mean, you know, you're in. a dope game. Sure. But drive back. Don't. know how much money. So, what happens is. they get back and there's like $100,000. missing out of the car or the trap. So, they kidnap the kids and that's when we. get involved. And the way it would work. is like I said, I'm calling I'm with the. family. Tell me the truth. um going over.

there because we used to operate we we. knew that we really only had the battery. life of the phone of the victim because. the cartel wasn't big on recharging the. phone and they're using that phone to. call and make the demands right so um. we're working it I call the we have a. border liaison officer and that border. leazison officer we have liaison in. Mexico whether it's a commandante cop um. uh elected official whatever military.

and we would call and I'd say look. person's name is this. It happened at. such and such time at this street corner. and this street corner they said there. was like three suburbans rolled up all. blacked out. Some dudes with BDUs jumped. out grabbed this guy named such and such. around this time. Within 30 minutes to. an hour you get a call back from the. board leazison officer. Yep, they got. him. It's the cartel. Well, what's the. deal? Well, they want I always come like. we want 300 grand. Okay, so you just. broker a deal is what you do. You got I. go in there with the family. I'm like, "Do you got 300 grand?" "No, they don't.

have it." "100 grand? We don't have it.". "Well, what do you got?" "We can come up. with 60 grand. What else you got?" The. cartel was big on uh on the border. It. was if you had a 4x4 V8 or a Harley, they were getting stolen all the time. So, it be like, "Hey, say it's 2006. Got. a 2005 Chevy Tahoe 4x4 V8. Okay, cool. Midnight, there goes the Tahoe with the. 60 grand. Here comes the kid across. these kids across. You know, we work. stuff like that all the time. Um, but we.

did get those kids back because what on. that particular case, what happened was. the last stretch of 281, you're in. Macallen and you're headed to the uh the. border. Uh, and there's a lot of used. car lots. Well, sometimes some people. working in those car lots might be, I. don't know, acquaintances with the. cartel, right? Um it was no it was. nothing to have cartel living in your. neighborhood and um but.

wind came out that when the car came. back there was two the cartel members. was an old guy they call him Elagula the. eagle uh and a younger kid that just. kind of like just starting out and. somebody started calling and said hey. that old guy he just came over here and. bought two cars like bought two cars. yeah I think he's got a new apartment or. something too. All right. He's He's just. blowing money that he's never been. blowing before. So, he puts a target on. his back. They go and they press the.

young kid. The cartel does press the. young kid, press the old guy. Old guy. doesn't break. Young kid breaks and. says, "Hey, yeah, he wanted me to take. it with him." I said, "Absolutely not.". And the last last information I got was. uh they had chopped either both of his. hands or at a minimum his fingers off. and he was cooked alive in a 55gallon. drum. >> Holy I can't remember if it was. acid or diesel fuel. They did both back. then, but it was called El Gizao. It's. soup. They're making you into soup.

>> So, I guess if you work for the cartel, don't steal from the cartel. >> Damn. >> But Ozil had all kinds of crazy things. He had. >> Is that common? >> Um Yeah. Back then, yeah. Yeah. Um. >> lots of kids getting cooked. >> Uh well, it was it was a common. technique that they might use. I mean, Texas Syndicate would do it, too. That's. a gang, but they they we've seen them. light people on fire and burn them. alive, too. Um, it's just violent and. and I'm careful because I don't want.

people to go, "Oh, you're saying all the. Mexicos." No, I'm not saying that at. all. I I love Hispanic culture. I've got. numerous Hispanic friends still down. there. Uh um but the cartel, yeah, it. was violent. I mean, he had a lion he. fed people to and that was confirmed. It. wasn't by me, but I remember the word. came back. Like I can't remember if they. were in a fixed wing plane or in a. helicopter liaisoning and they're flying. over and it was like you see a big line. in a cage and you're like man those. bones. What are all these bones in that.

cage? Like ah po it's chicken. Pretty big chicken. Pretty big bones. >> Looks a little more like a femur. But. I'm not you know who am I? Who am I to. judge you know? And then uh this is. sick. I don't know. I don't I don't know. if heard people get like. vulgarly gross on your show before, but. um it's true. Uh he had a. >> It's pretty graphic on this show. >> Yeah. Okay, good. He uh he had a.

little person I don't know. They. were calling him a I don't want. to offend anybody, but he had a. who was apparently blessed in the Nether. regions. And he used that guy to rape. people as part of torture. Cuz when you. get kidnapped, I mean, there was it was. big on like they'll take kilos, which is. a 2.2 lb brick, hitting you in the head. with it, cigar burns all over you, electrocute stuff. That was big back. then. I don't know what they do now, but. um we always thought it was a wife's. tail. But one Christmas Eve, uh, I was.

actually driving to Arizona with my wife. and kids and I got a lot of sources and. we start getting calls and what happened. was is a guy goes and carjacks a vehicle. and drives right into Mexico and tries. to sell it to the cartel. Well, he. didn't look in the back. There's an. infant in the back seat. So now the. cartel's pissed because he's bringing. heat that doesn't need to be there and. he's an idiot. So they are threatening. to kill him. And then we get that call. Hey, they got my son. They're going to.

kill him. Blah blah blah. We're doing. the whole brokering thing. I've got. sources reporting stuff. I'm. coordinating while I'm driving cuz I was. a senior guy. Um and uh when when they. get the guy back, he comes across the. bridge balling. And they called me and. they're like, "Dude, the midget's real.". I'm like, "What?" [laughter]. They're like, "Yeah." They said he came. across and he was crying. And they said. when the call came in like FBI like, "Hey, okay, we're on the phone. We got. the money. We're ready. Let's meet." The.

was in the room. The guy was. crying. He was getting ready. He was. getting ready to be tortured a little. bit. >> Get raped by a. >> Mhm. Yeah. So. about the time I was transferring out of. there or maybe shortly thereafter, the. Department of Justice, I say we, took. off Ozel Cardanis. Um, and I don't know. what anybody else's thoughts on it are, but I don't think we ever pictured that. You take that guy off, it created a.

vacuum. So, even though it was violent, we had those, hey, it's FBI case, you. don't want us to shut down the border, let this kid come back, blah, blah, blah. We had that kind of thing going. Um, and even if they did, they did cough. up. The cartel coughed up two uh. undocumented aliens coming from Yemen. cuz they came in and asked the wrong. people and and the cartel's like, "We. don't want this kind of heat." Hey, FBI, we got two people, you know. Uh but when. we took him off it created a.

it created a vacuum and now everybody's. starting to compet compete for power. because under the Gulf cartel at that. time the enforcement arm were the. safetist Ze T-S paramilitary must have. been trained those are the ones pulling. up in the suburbans jumping out grabbing. you. They're the ones that are. collecting the quotas. If you smuggle. dope or undocumented aliens you have to. pay a quota to the cartel. I think at. least when I was there it was like every. two weeks you had to pay. If you didn't. pay, they'll kidnap you. I've had.

sources get kidnapped and held and. tortured. Um, I've had targets, same. thing happened to them until they can. pay up their money. >> How would they torture them? >> Same. Uh, same. One of them, she was she. was tough. She was tough. She's uh they. they threatened to rape her like 20 guys. or something and she was an older lady. She's like she's like an I mean she was. she was tough. She's like, "Holy shit.". And they were like, "Um, but yeah, that the burning, the uh. smacking, you know, hitting you in the. head, stuff like that.".

>> Um, but what happened is Oziel gets. taken out and now the satas are like, "Well, we're the ones getting all the. stuff. We should be running this. We're. going to take over." Then you got. somebody trying to move up in the Gulf. cartel. Then you got Senoa cartel coming. in saying, "No, we're going to take this. spot." You got MS-13 saying, "No, we're. going to take this spot." And the last I. talked to people that were down there. working it, um, it just got to the point. to where the extortions and the time. frame and the money and stuff, they were. just falling through because they were. just chopping people's heads off because.

everybody's fighting for territory. So. if a nice vehicle, nicer vehicle rolls. in to this town and this town is being. run by SATAS and we go, well, you're not. one of us, but you got to be somebody. because you're in a decent vehicle. Um, innocent bystanders have been killed. I. had a friend of mine in East Tennessee. He he grew up doing his parents were. doing missions and he was familiar at. this one village and it's south of. Macallen going through there. But he. asked me if I could check because the. family had lost contact and I reached.

out and the border leazison officer at. the time was a friend of mine and they. did some research and uh he'd been it's. one of those deals. >> in a vehicle couldn't explain we're not. cartel we're not senoa we're notas and. it's six heads. >> damn. >> six heads in a car. you see a lot of that. >> uh a decent decent amount like actually. seeing it looking at it not nec. necessarily, but the videos and stuff. were starting to come. They were. starting to mimic, you know,

>> Yeah. Yeah. The live sawing. >> like just slow motion. rusty blade. You can hear the girth. That's Yeah. Sick, >> man. >> Did you see a lot of human trafficking. down there, too? >> Yeah. I mean, that's what I mean, that. is smuggling. >> Yeah. >> Essentially, I get. We have a huge problem with the human. trafficking stuff. I get a little muddy. in my head sometimes because I've I I. could take you storytelling or.

experience-wise from the border all the. way to the hotel room, right? But if. it's a if it's a adult and they are. choosing to be an escort, is that human trafficking? Or if that's the way they are now, maybe. which is what we found a lot or my. experience we found a lot was they were. brought in underage but they're of age. now. >> Yeah. >> So they were trafficked early on and now. this is all they do. Um but uh yes they.

were there were different organizations. like c certain organizations had good. reputations like hey if you're getting. kids smuggled in you want da Teddy. You. want her because she always takes care. of the kids. everybody loves her as. opposed to an organization that just. drugs up the kids with um benadryil and. then everybody's rolling through the. checkpoint all drugged up and you don't. know if they're going to get dumped or. not. So, I mean it's it's still I mean. it's a business model, right? You want. somebody good. Um but there are some.

that'll. take the girls and and push them right. into human trafficking or that indigured. servitude thing. You know, we saw that a. lot in uh Philly on some cases I worked. up there with my buddies. Um saw it in. New York. You would see like the brothel. and stuff where people got smuggled in, but now they're having to work off. So, yeah, it's trafficking. But yeah, I mean. the border it's I mean dope and people. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And guns, but guns usually go the other. way.

Trading them trading them for dope and. stuff. >> Guns going the other way, huh? >> Mhm. Yeah. So, like say we're a gang. Say we're Texas Syndicate Syndicato, right? Or Mexican mafia or whatever. Aryan Brotherhood. Let's say we're Aryan. Brotherhood since we're white. I'll I'll put us in our correct genre uh. ethnicity. But say we're uh Aryan. Brotherhood and we've got weapons, but. we're good at getting weapons, but we. get down there and we trade the weapons. for dope.

>> I wouldn't say that's all the time, but. I mean it happens. What's I'm just. curious, you know, when you're talking. about like these ransom things. Is that. what you'd call it? Ransom. >> Extortion, kidnapping. >> Yeah. Extortion, kidnapping. What's the. What's your success rate of recovery? >> As far as I know, once we've gotten the. case, we got them. >> Really? >> Yeah. I I do not I I never heard of. >> Not very many times to get cooked in a. barrel. >> I didn't. Well, but that wasn't one of. the victims. That was one of the cartel.

guys. >> The victims got kidnapped because the. money was missing. But once they figured. out it was El Augula, they let the kids. go. >> Oh, okay. >> So, yeah, I would say. from my knowledge, and I never heard of. anybody talking in the history of. Macallen where they've lost some. I'm. sure it's happened, but from my. knowledge now, if once we got the case. and we made the phone calls, we'd get. them back. >> So, what's the transfer look like? >> [laughter]. >> you're at the bridge or you're at the. port and it's like you know here comes.

here comes the car and the money here. comes one. or Pablo I don't know whoever whoever. the person is. So, >> now a lot of times, now here's the thing. though. A lot of times if it was drugs. and we've done all that, we've busted. our tail to beat that person back. safely. We'd be ready to interview them. Soon as they come to us, they go, "I'm. not telling you nothing." Because. they've just been threatened that. they're that even though the cartel's. cutting them, the cartel's telling them, "We'll kill your we'll kill your family. We'll kill your dogs. We'll cut your.

tongues out." All whatever. So, they're. not going to work with us. So, some may. argue that we just freed a drug dealer. M. >> now the human trafficking stuff I saw. that as a I mean me personally my. personal opinion um which the. constitution is the constitution but my. my personal opinion is yeah those those. are victims I mean they got paid they. paid money somebody paid money for them. to come across the river be smuggled. across the river then they get them to a. staging location which is a stash house. then you got to get around the.

checkpoint and from there that's where. you go off to Houston Dallas or wherever. but we've had cases where uh Um. they're extorting the family who's. already here. They're undocumented, but. they're already here. And they're. extorting the family, saying, you know, we've already dumped your uh sister in. the brush and let her left her to die. Your 5-year-old daughter's sick, and. we're not going to get her any medicine. unless you start paying us more money. So now they're extorting that family. Now we're trying to find where the stash. house is at trying to rescue that. 5-year-old girl.

>> Damn, man. >> Yeah, that was a good case. We were on. that one. That was a That was a hump. Uh. it was I mean it only lasted several. days, but you're trying to find you're. trying to get any piece you can. Um and. and we we we eventually got it. It was. one of those it was one of those deals. where um. we knew that we knew that the phone that. was being used by the extortion person. was somewhere in a general facility, but.

that facility is like a let's say it's a. big gas station or something. Uh, and. then it's like, "Hey, it looks like. looks like the thing's moving." kind of. thing. And then at that same time, four. different people walk out. And I'm like, "Oh." And I'm the lead agent and I'm. looking and I'm going, "Oh man, Lord. help me." And I'm looking and I'm going. and everybody's like, "Which one are we. going with? Which one are we going. with?" And I'm just looking and I'm. going, "Put my guts right. Let's follow. that guy." And we surveil. And then uh. once we put that guy down, we were able.

to confirm that the phone was close by. We're like, got the right one. So then. you go kick in the door. The the the. undocumented aliens weren't there, but. we knew we had the right guy cuz the. phone that had been used to call was. there. And they had ledgers. They had. ledgers of was very it was actually. great for intelligence. They had ledgers. of names of all the organizations. So, if this load came in today, this. notebook would say every person's name. in the group uh that's illegal,

undocumented, and then it would have the. name of the walker, the coyote, and it. would have the name of the organization. that brought them over. And then the. next leisure was that coyote that picked. them up and who's taking them. Um, and. then after about an hour and a half. interrogation, uh, he decided to take us to the stash. house and we got the 5-year-old girl. back. >> Wow, that's awesome. >> Put her on the phone with her mom. They. were Honduran family. We put her on the. phone with her mom. She still had her. little school girl outfit on. And uh. yeah, they were in a dry eye. All the.

guys, man. We were like, "Yeah, just put. her on and go, hey, here's your mommy.". And she's talking. And then, man, we. were all like, you know, >> it sure is. It's it's windy out here. I. got some sand. [clears throat] I'm not. crying. You're crying. [laughter]. >> Damn. You seen all the stuff going on at. the border in Spain? >> Yeah. Just from what I've I mean a. little bit just on TV. >> Crazy. >> mass. >> There's a poly market on this.

>> There's got to be I mean it's a. coordinated effort for somebody for that. many people to pop in. >> Well, that's what I was going to ask. you. What do you think? I mean, there's. a poly market on this. Whether Spain. will accuse Morocco of facilitating the. migrant surge into Qua. From your border. experience, how can you tell when. migrant when migration is organic versus. deliberately encouraged by a government. or a criminal network? >> Oh, that's a good question. Uh, we're. going to have to dive in that baby and. conduct a logical investigation. You. know, we're because I mean, you're going. to have to start interviewing people.

Source, it could be sources that tell. you it may be the government leaking it. I don't know. um. social media news coverage. It's just so. I would say that could that could get it. out there, maybe let you know, but. there's so much fake stuff on there now. >> Yeah. >> And I'm sorry. There's so many people if. you got a camera and a microphone, you. can get you a YouTube channel. That does. not mean it's the truth. >> Yeah. >> For the love of all this holy man. I. mean, there's like new stuff. It looks.

legit. It's like we blew up this many. boats today in Sankum and I'm looking at. Fox. I'm looking at C. I'm looking at. I'm like I'm looking at all the main. things. I'm going this would be. worldwide news. Or is it am I getting to. the conspiracy thing or you looking you. go say AI man? It's just so weird now. and I think it's just going to get. worse. >> What signs suggest migration is being. used as political leverage? Oh man, I'd rather do this over a beer.

when the camera's rolling. [laughter]. Always, man. You always try to They try. to pin you, you know. Well, are you. conservative or are you liberal? Uh, >> well, >> did you see anything like that when you. were. >> Man, the open border thing is political. Yeah, >> that's under under whatever regime, you. know, it's. >> because I work down there. I know that.

even during COVID, even during COVID. when they shut down, they shut down the. checkpoints. Like I'm talking to my. peers and and mentors and people I've. been blessed to mentor and they're like, "No, there's nobody working the. checkpoint." I go, "Nobody's working the. checkpoint." They go, "No." And I go, "I wonder how long that took to get to. the cart till." Yeah. Because of COVID. And then they start, okay, well, we'll. work first shift or we're going to work. two shifts, but we're not going to man. third shift. That's like it's literally. like ants at a picnic. How long does it. take him to figure out where the food's. at and there's a conga line going right.

there, right? It's the same thing. We. drove one night u my partner who ended. up becoming an FBI agent. He was a. border patrol agent at the time. We. drove out to Heville because they. apprehended a load from a group we were. asking about and we like, "Oh, it's a. good opportunity." We pulled in and. we're like, "Uh, when we pulled in, we're like, "We didn't go through a. checkpoint to get here." I mean, we got. it's like 2:00 in the morning, but I'm. like, we walk in, he's border patrol. goes, "Hey, why come this one isn't. manned. We're underst staffed." It's. literally like 5 minutes before the. cartel knows. And if say if the roads.

101, they go, "Everybody take 101. It's. unmanned right now." So, even if you're. working two shifts at Falurious. Checkpoint, I guarantee you, you're. sitting in the brush watching. All. right. Yep. Lights are going off. Reverse lights on. Okay, they're. leaving. then let's go. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I mean, we we really had no idea what. was coming in. >> Damn. >> But if you want to talk political, I. mean, yeah, I think there's an argument. to be made. If you.

politicians and votes, I'm sure there's a country song out. there about it. [laughter] Pretty sure Charlie Daniels. did it. And it might be something to do. with a long-haired country boy. So, where do we go from here? Is this. >> is this where you go to FBI undercover. training? >> Sure. Yeah, because we talked about the. cartel and stuff. I mean, when I came up. to Tennessee as a case agent, we did a. lot of the opioid stuff. We shut down.

four pill mills here, but we can get. into the meat now. >> Let's do it. >> Yeah. You want to go I don't know which. you want to go first. You want to go. outlaws? That's a big one. The white. supremacy is a big one, but murder for. hires. Uh public corruption, >> go outlaws. Okay. Bam. Ready? >> Let's do it. >> Let's do it. Let me take a little take a. little sip of this high quality H2O.

Um, so somewhere around 2005ish, um, in the FBI, well, let me let me let. me start this way. I got certified as an. undercover. In 2002, I finally got. certified as an undercover. I'd actually. already done. some undercovers because I got. transferred out of New York City to San. Antonio at one call a specialty. undercover because I was full-time. undercover. And when they do the. renewal, you know, at 6 months they're.

doing a renewal. They're they're. planning out the next time. We need this. budget, we need this, we need this, and. then that they wrote Scott's full-time, transfer him to the San Antonio. division. So that goes back to me. talking about the 911. So as soon as I. could fly, I went. But I didn't um I. didn't lose my transfer. Um. but even though I had done those. undercovers, uh I wasn't certified yet. Uh I I got I got specific case approval. to be undercover on that case because of.

my background and being an ARC and all. that stuff. So I finally get a slot in. the school and I go and um I won't give. away everything about the school, but. it's pretty well known. Uh, it's two. weeks, no days off, and we're big on. sleep deprivation. Like that first that. first four days, five days, if they're. still running it the way we did from. 2002 to 2022, um, it's a it's a booty kicker. But, as. you know, with your training and stuff,

some people some people say that's the. hardest certification in the FBI. I say. HRT. I I'll say the UC school is. probably second. Um, but HRT, hostage. rescue team, that's our tier one. >> I mean, we've got numerous former Navy. Seals, uh, that have come into the FBI. and go to HRT, Green Brace, all kinds of. spec ops, or it could just be a former. cop like me, SWAT, and and you go there. Um, that is a two-e tryyout, sleep. deprivation as well, but it's very, very. physical. So, really, I don't know of.

too many that have ever made the team on. their first try out. you're just trying. to get through that twoe try out without. getting injured. You want to complete. the course, you know, but the UC school. is is more on the mind game stuff, right? Um I have seen people nut the f. out. I would have never known it. Even. though I'm moderate psych, I. some people if you take their schedule. and you twist it sideways and upside. down and they don't get the same meals. at the same time, they don't get to work.

out at the same time, they don't get to. nap or use the bathroom at the same time. for a couple of days in a row, some. people just off, you know, and I. never would have I never would have. known it had I not seen it. And uh but. that's integrity that that's good for. the school. It's not hazing. Um, I have. never seen a 100% graduation rate. I. never knew of one prior to me or after. me or during the time I was there. And. it's not a hazing thing. It's just that. some people aren't cut out for. undercover.

>> Yeah. >> You might be the best case agent in the. world. You might be the best firearms. instructor in the world, best firearms. shooter, maybe not cut out for. undercover work. So, I got certified and. I mean, I'm in. >> what? There's approximately 11,000. FBI agents, only 600. >> undercover, >> something like that. the what we used to. say for years, the numbers fluctuate, but it would be like out of 11,000. agents say 600 are certified undercovers. and then if you say out of those. certified undercovers in the FBI, how. many of you have been the primary.

undercover on one just one? And it's. going to dwindle down more than one less. than five, it's going to dwindle down. More than five, less than 10, now we're. getting down. You get to the 10 and. over, we probably all know each other. because we're participating at the UC. school. We're involved in the program. Everybody knows my big I was big. country. We got Gator. We got we got all. kinds, you know, but everybody starts. knowing you and then you start. recruiting and using. Now, there's going. to be new people coming in and old. people leaving, but for the most part, you've got this crew and uh really uh.

apppropo because we're getting ready to. talk about 1enter bikers. Uh they say. that if you're an undercover in law. enforcement, you're a 1enter because. only 1% does undercover. Right. >> And. um yeah, so I I go to the school and. I've got like Joe Pone, like the Donnie. Brasco. >> No. >> Yeah, that's my that's my I mean, he's. still a friend as a mentor and a friend. now. I call him boss man. Uh he's helped.

[clears throat] me a lot with all this. kind of stuff since retiring. Um but uh. yeah, and I was supposed to be with him. in June. I was supposed to be with him. Uh, we were going to be teaching. somewhere, but I got the Donnie. Nebraska. And let me tell you what I did. when I went to the UC school. I was the. last one to leave. I didn't care if I. slept or not. I didn't care, man. I was. so so in it, man. So, everybody that. came and talk, I was just like, you. know, it was so cool. I was trying not. to be a fanboy on the outside, but on.

the inside definitely was. But they'd. kick me out of the they'd kick me out of. the drinking room. I'd be like putting. up trash. They like, "Kid, go to bed.". I'm like, "Okay." But let me ask you. about this. You know, if you're going to. sit here and talk to me, I'm going to be. a sponge. So, I get certified and then. uh on paper, I'm a white guy with no. foreign language. I may not jump out at. a whole lot, you know, grew up. landscaping and played ball and was a. cop and a bouncer. Um, but you start I.

start trying to network, start trying to. get my name known and and or at least. find work is what I'm trying to do. I'm. trying to find work. Mhm. >> And uh I got to. uh they finally called me and said, "Hey, do you want to role play at the. undercover school?" And I was like, "Absolutely." So uh when I went to role. play, um so that's just for the. scenarios at night, right? Um you're. going to be an undercover. We're going. to be doing live scenarios where you're. the student coming in and trying to do. good, learn, you know, you may die and.

you got to do another one. But I started. role playing and then that's when people. started getting to know me because even. if they hadn't se they haven't seen you. work undercover, they can watch you in a. scenario with interact with people and. maybe maybe they're a senior undercover. and they're not just there to be at the. school to teach and and role play or be. a counselor. They're actually there. recruiting for their division because. they know the case is coming up and they. need somebody with your skill set. So, um, I do all that and then I used to. call the unit like once a week and I'd.

go, "Hey, you got anything for any. rednecks with no foreign language?". [laughter] And then next week we go, I. go, they'd be like, "Hey, supervisor. such." I go, "Hey, what's going on? It's. country." Country, what are you doing? You got anything for any rednecks with. no foreign language? [laughter] And uh, that's when they finally invited me to. the school. But um uh eventually uh you. know people start getting to know you. and it turns out that there was going to. be uh uh they had an investigation a. case going in Massachusetts on uh a. couple of chapters of the Outlaws. Motorcycle Club up there. Um, that's a.

1enter club. And I know you've already. had 1enters, former 1enters on this. show, but for the listeners, uh, 1enter. means it the the the. term was coined after Vietnam. Uh, a lot. of biker clubs started forming after. like World War II and stuff like that. But after Vietnam, um, it should be. pretty well known to everybody that when. the soldiers came back, they weren't. treated that well. They weren't welcomed. back. Um, a lot of them were getting.

into uh biker clubs and we're doing some. nefarious rowdy type stuff to the point, I guess it was garnering so much. attention that the president of the AMA, the American Motorcycle Association, I. think it's what it was called then, came. out and did this media blitz and said, "Listen, 99% of all motorcycle riders. are good law-abiding citizens. It's only. 1% of their bad." And they took that as. a badge of honor and they became. 1enters. So, um, they had an.

investigation going on up there. Uh, and. I got I can't remember if I got canvased. in an email or I saw the canvas or. somebody called me, but it was probably. more of a word of mouth thing. And, uh, I talked to them and I don't know how. many people they interviewed for. possible undercovers for the case, but. it's almost like an audition, you know, and I went up there and and they picked. me. >> If you've been listening to the show for. a while, you know this is something I. care about. We've had regenerative. farmers and health experts on. We've.

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>> What are they looking for? Uh, I guess. number one that you can go in there and. hold yourself upright with that kind of. crowd. Um, I remember I remember being. peppered, man, in the beginning cuz it. was like DEA, ATF, us, the FBI, state. and local. Um, but as the case went on, I think it was just there was a DEA. agent that was on our team. Um, and uh,

and then we had like three on our team. That's the thing. In the beginning of a. case, it's all passionate. Everybody's. there. Everybody wants to be a part of. it. If that thing's still going 30 days. later, a lot of people start losing. passion, trickling off. But if it's your. case, you're the case agent going to. work it. So, I got up there. Um, they. were we we were going over like game. plans. Um, so maybe they were looking. for that. It's like, how would you do. this? And I'm like, well, based on my. experience, um, let's say, let's say.

you've got somebody, uh, there are cases. where you may have a source and that. source can introduce me. You know, hey, this is my good friend Scott. Well, that's good, but it could be bad, too. It could be bad if you look at like a. Donnie Brasco situation where Lefty is. the one that brought him into the mafia. If it turns out that they think Donnie. Joe Bone is a snitch or a fed, they're. probably not going to tell Lefty because. Lefty is the one that brought him in.

But what if he came in by himself? And. that's kind of what I said. I said, "Look, I think I would rather go in. cold." And by going in cold, I mean I. don't have a source introducing me, nothing. I'm just going to be let me let. me build my story. And my story was that. I was a sight survey specialist. Um. because I could transition to that from. landscaping pretty easy. I could sell. it, make it look real. I could actually. go to the clerk of court. I could pull. records, four-point survey, whatever I'm. doing, right? Um but it allows me to. travel and that was my legit reason for.

being in Massachusetts. But they gave me. a lot of intelligence. Um like uh there. was one member whose road name was. Spanky and they said that he just loved. to be surrounded by big dudes and loved. to be the center of attention. And they. were spot on on that and I used that to. my advantage. Um. but some other things were kind of hit. and miss. Like I asked him, I'm like, "Hey, we knew that they hung out at this. bar called Foxy Lady." Foxy Lady Strip. Club. Not going to say gentleman's club.

Uh, but the Foxy Lady uh, and I'm like, can they wear their cuts in there, their. leather vest for the listeners that. don't know, um, with their colors, uh, whatever their patch is? And the answer. was no, they can't. I'm like, oh man, this going to be that's going to not be. hard at all for me. I'm just thinking in. my head, I'm like, I'm going to be in a. bar. Other than me sounding like a. redneck, I'm like, I'm going to be in a. bar. having a drink, listen to heavy metal. music. I'm a tattooed dude. There's.

naked people running around next to a. dude just like me. Same thing. But when they all came in, they were all. wearing their colors. So, luckily, what. I did is before I ever did before I ever. was going to see them or bump them, I. went to that bar a couple of times just. to make a just work it for hours. Just. go in there and be me. because human nature will exaggerate. anyway. you know, the fish was this big,

but the 10th time you tell the story, it. was a whale. So, by the time by the time. they're coming in, and I know because. the case team, cover team's telling me, "All right, they're leaving the. clubhouse. Looks like they're coming. over. Um, yeah, they're headed to Foxy. Lady." I'm like, "All right, now's my. time. I've laid the groundwork. I've. I've got my backstory and here it is.". So when they walk in and take that whole. back bar and it's just a sea of black. leather and testosterone, it changes my approach now. I mean, what. am I going to do? Walk up and go, "Hey,

you boys ride?" You know, you know what. I'm saying? Nothing. All right, I'm out. They start beating you up. Um, but I I. had a group of people that I was already. befriending or talking to at the bar and. uh I was telling jokes and they were. laughing and I could see I could see. peripheral. I could see that uh it was. eating Spanky up like a big laughter. Hey, you see Spanky? He'd be like, "The. hell's going on over there, man. Who is. that dude? Who is that dude?" Well, what.

he's doing is he's asking the bartender, "Hey, who is that guy?" Oh, that's. Scott. He comes here all the time. He's. from Texas. I don't go there all the. time, but she knows me. Right. So, that's that's that whole you're legend, your backstory. You It has to be real. Has to look real. has to pass the the. sniff test, >> right? So, eventually it aggravates him. enough to where he yells over to me and. he's like, "Hey, where the f are you. from?" And I say some stupid joke and he. laughs and then we're giggling and.

whatever. I'm like, "Oh, man. Cool, man." I go back over. I'm playing hard. to get and uh he sends a drink or calls. me over and uh and eventually I go over. and I talk to him and it's a. braggadocious a lot of that. And uh he. gives me some business cards. He said, "Hey, man. We've got the uh Northeast. Regional coming up, the Lobster Fest.". Lobster Lobster Festival. [laughter]. And uh he said, "If you're going to be. in town, come back. Tell them you're my. guy." And all this stuff. Well, there's.

another guy I met that night named Scott. Town. And this dude was jacked. Um. and by jacked, I mean very muscular for. listeners that don't know. [laughter]. Big dude. big muscular dude. So, I. remember going to the bathroom and in. and the Foxy Lady and again for. listeners that don't know, like. especially in a guy, if you're in a bar. and you go to a guy's bathroom and you. walk up to the urinal, there's usually. like a box of plexiglass, then it's got.

like ads for this dancer's coming or. don't forget clamp strip Friday or. something like that, you know, car wash. Sunday or whatever they got. So, I'm. looking in that reflection of that glass. and this and the bathroom door swings. open and I see Scott through the. reflection and I'm watching. I'm already. making notes of my I'm my gray gray. t-shirt with black rim uh rim on. it. Uh he's totally sleeved out tattoo, left arm, three big ass earring. You. know, I'm going through this whole thing. and I'm watching him. He looks at the.

stalls. He's looking under the stalls. and he's pushing the stalls making sure. nobody's in there. And I'm like, he. starts walking towards me and I'm like, I think I'm getting ready to get jumped. I think it's for a split second cuz he's. he's cleared. He's made sure there's. nobody else in the bathroom. And for. that split second, I thought I better. hurry and finish and zip this thing up. cuz I don't want to be fighting. I don't want to be fighting with my with. my uh privates outside my zipper. You. know [laughter]. what was uh something about Mary? Yeah, we got a bleeder. I'd be like, "Oh my.

gosh." [laughter] Yeah. How'd you get. the bean on top of the Frank? Yeah. Uh, [laughter]. so he walks up and I thought, man, I'm. getting ready to get jumped. I can't. even. And then he's like, so where'd you. say you were from? And I'm like, oh, I'm. from Macallen. He goes, oh, I'm familiar. with that. He goes, I did used to fight. dogs. Yeah, I was down in Brownsville, man. That's how Yeah. Where else we. start talking? Oh, yeah. I grew up in. South Carolina. What part? Greenville. Oh, man. I was in Spartanber. I This. what I'm saying. Had I been bluffing,

he could have caught me right there. >> You need to know, right? On a funny side. note, I used to say I was a landscaper. all the time. So, here I am in Macallen. It's been a long time since I landscape. Even when I flew as Scott Payne, I. wouldn't tell anybody who I was, you. know. So, I'm next to a very nice. elderly lady, well-dressed. We're flying. from Macallen to Houston. She says, "What do you do?" I said, "Well, I'm a. landscaper.". She starts questioning me so hard, so.

fast, peppering me. I It was like It was. like I was getting knocked out to She. She blew my cover so bad that I. literally turned to her said, "Ma'am, I. apologize. I lied to you. I'm actually. an FBI agent." [laughter] And I thought. to myself, don't everybody don't tell. nobody a landscaper anymore cuz she. schooled you. What about this tree? You. know, in this kind of this year it. doesn't grow and blah blah blah blah. And I'm like, maybe I'll just go with. I'll plant and I can keep up the. maintenance. Maybe that's what I'll do. So, he questions me and uh we start to. get to know each other. So, by the time.

I come back for the lobster fest, uh I'm. already getting to know Scott pretty. good and I end up going with him. Um and. I remember walking in again, you got to. have an entrance. You go in, it was the. Brockton clubhouse, uh live music, um all kinds of stuff. And then you're being scrutinized. I. mean, every time you meet somebody new, whether the whether this whole chapter. knows you and can vouch for you, you go. to the Daytona run, you go to the. Sturgeist run, you go on another. clubhouse, and you this close, you got a.

president going, "Who the f is this?". And how did he end up in Massachusetts? So, whatever you say on day one, it. could be two years from now, it better. match. >> Damn. >> Yeah. So, you're planting that seed and. you need to know it. Um, so as the case. went on, uh, I meet the president of the. chapter, Joe Dogs, and, uh, they had an. enforcer there named Closine. That's. that's their street names, their road. names. Um, but through the case, uh, it.

starts coming out that I'm a criminal, too. Um, shocker. Uh, and we started. kind of light. Um, they're already. predicated, and that's a big thing. People are like, "Well, how can you do. Look, if the dude's already, we've. already worked a case. We know they're. selling dope. We've documented they're. selling dope." Well, I can go up to you. and talk to you about dope. But if I've. never met you before, and all of a. sudden we think we're going to make you. a target. And hey, uh uh how about you. give you a kilo of cocaine for free? Well, maybe you're broke. Maybe that's.

now we're getting into some entrapment. stuff, right? But if you're predicated. and you've already we've already shown. that you do this kind of stuff, then. then we're good um for the most part uh. to get the case going right and start. the investigation. So. I started. laying out this legend that I was a high. ranking member or if not the leader of. an international theft ring. So I knew. because I was on the border and I worked. with Texas DPS um Border Patrol uh even.

for my own insurance. I know that what I. said earlier, a 4x4 V8 and uh. Harley-Davidson stolen all the time. All. the time. So, I knew that was popular. And I did a little we we did a little. dog and pony show where I got Joe dogs. with me one night and we go out and he. sees me meet a truck driver. He sees me. pay cash to the truck driver. He sees me. with what would appear to be a truckload. of stolen equipment. And that's the way.

I portrayed as such. I even give him. some, you know. Um, and then he's like, "Oh, man. You make a pretty good lick on. that." And I'm like, "Yeah, not too. bad." He goes, "All I saw was power. tools." I said, "Exactly. Just let him. wonder. Just let him wonder." Um, so. then it becomes to where it's insurance. fraud. And that's where we started. really starting to do some stuff. They. would report their motorcycles stolen. They get their insurance money. I would. buy the motorcycles at a stolen price. from them, which is usually 20 to 25% of. actual cost. And then that happens.

Nobody goes to jail. Build us some. trust. Then it's, "Hey, when you coming. back, text." They nickname me text. Uh, when you coming back, text. I'm like, "I. don't know, man. A couple of weeks I can. be up there. What you got?" I got some. things lined up. Okay. What you got? Let. me know. And then we got to where I'd. come into town and they would have like. F350s, uh, 2500 diesels, and we're loading them. on the semis. And then it keeps going. and I'm gaining more and more trust with.

that kind of stuff. But now also on the. side there's a lot of grenade and and. rocket launcher whatever talk and and. fully automatic weapon talk. Some things. come to fruition, some things don't. But. the biker war is still going on during. this stuff. I know you just had uh uh. former Hell's Angel on that was that's. that was the arch rivals of the outlaws. and vice versa. Boston and north was. Hell's Angel territory. Boston South was. outlaw territory till about Cape Cod.

What the outlaws were trying to do is. they wanted to set up a new chapter in. Cape Cod. But they needed to stack it. with big what they were saying big jack. dudes that could protect themselves and. fight for the club. And they were trying. to recruit me and Scott for that cuz. Scott was a big dude. And I guess they. thought I was big at that time. and they. were going to try to recruit us to. become outlaws and we'd be a part of. that Cape Cod chapter to fight the. Hell's Angels. So, um, and there's all kinds of inter gang. stuff that goes on like, uh, Scott even.

had one. You go beat the colors off of a. Hell's Angel. So, when you go do your. criminal activity, you wear the Hell's. Angels cut to make it look like the. Hell's Angels are doing it, not the. Outlaws. Got it. >> Or if you go retaliate against another. club and you're wearing that Hell's. Angel cut, stuff like that happens. Gotcha. Um, so. let me see where I'm at in the story. All right, so now I'm getting to more and more. trust. Um, but during this we've got.

during the two year, it was a two-year. case, but during the two years we had a. Hell's Angel president murdered. Um, I don't know if they ever proved it was. outlaws. If we would have taken the. case, Rico, we we could have wrapped up. a lot more people, but that's up to the. US attorney's office, not me. Um, but we. did know that it was Bridgeport, Connecticut, and we do know that the. shooters were in a green truck with. Florida plates. We also knew that hell, I mean, the outlaws from Florida were up.

in the area cuz they were staying with. my crew. Um, and when that happened, now. we're they're the case team's doing wire. taps. Um, I'm over there. I'm calling. I'm dirtying it up. I'm talking to them. like, "Hey, what's going on?" They're. like, "Man, it's hot here right now. If. you come, you need to be you need to be. packing and and be have a vest." I go, "I don't want to travel that If I. get there, will you throw me something?". Like, "Yeah, cool." You know, um, and. you're getting that intel. Uh, we've got. the It might have been retaliation for. that, but Sturgis, uh, they called it,

"Hey, all outlaws are going to Sturis. Get your and go." and we all went. out to Sturgis. The day I got there, two. outlaws, oh, I'm sorry, two Hell's. Angels, uh, I think from Canada shot. five outlaws at Point Blank Range at a. gas station. I think it was a gas. station, but it it was like two two old. ladies, a prospect, I think, and two. patch members. And there were some. serious wounds, like paralyzed paralyzed.

from the waist down. >> You know, that's one of those where the. case team's like going out there. I'm. like, I'm not going out there wearing no. outlaw stuff that they're shooting. people. You know, I got enough holes. So, all that's going on during this. case, well, I'm building trust. And now. it gets to where, hey, text, we. carjacked somebody. Now they're they're. coming to me after taking a vehicle at. gunpoint from somebody. That's a that's. a serious charge. And they're telling. me, "We need to get rid of this thing. It is hot." I said, "I got it." Now.

they're trusting my truck drivers. truck. driver pulls up, we put it on there. I. said, "Don't worry about whether it was. OnStar or Lowjack, whatever it was back. then." Um, I say, "My guys will take. care of it." And that's what started. happening more and more. And and we were. filling the warehouse up with stolen. vehicles and property and all kinds of. stuff. Um, we're getting intelligence. that they've been doing home invasions. Um, uh, almost killed a guy. Uh, things like. that. Extortion. definitely running.

dope. But if you look at the Tauntton. chapter, that's the main one I. infiltrated. Taunt and Brockton are. right next to each other. But the Taunt. chapter really out of like 13 to 15. guys, I think like one and a half had a. job. I mean I as far as I know, one had. a towing company, the other one was a. tattoo artist and piercer. And I don't. think he worked all the time. Pretty. much everybody else, at least the ones I. dealt with, they were straight thugs. no. job. Just. by by criminal means making your money.

>> Damn. >> Whether that's breakins. I mean one of them said you don't ever. show up without your dues money. You got. to pay your dues. I don't care if he's. like I don't care if on my way here I. don't have my money and I see an old. lady walking down the street. I'll go. over there and knock her out and take. her take her purse, you know, so I can. pay my dues. And I'm like all right, keep talking. So. all that's going on. I'm gaining more. trust. But one the one of the main.

things that's happened is me and Scott. Town are bonding. We are bonding like it. is insane. I mean out of any case I have ever done. in 28 years of law enforcement. Never. bonded this tight with somebody. I mean. we finished each other's sentences. We. love pretty much the same stuff. I mean, fighting, drinking, lifting, tattoos, motorcycles, having a good time, you know? Uh,

literally, it's that story of the. proverbial fork in the road. Like, I. think at that proverbial fork in the. road, he went that way and I went that. way. I easily could have gone that way. That could easily be me. Um, and I was raised good. >> You liked it. >> Yeah. Yeah, but I mean that's I'm like. that could easily be me. I could have. made one wrong choice and went that way. Maybe that's why I was good at at least. the groups that I infiltrated. You know, it's my skill set. You know me. But.

it gets to a point to where. if the case team was worried about my. safety, they'd be like, "Hey, you can't. put it in the operations plan. You know, you can't put in an FBI operations plan. Scott Town's going to be there tonight. You can't do that because he's a. target." But they would ask, "Is Big. Scotty going out with you tonight?" "Oh. yeah, he's going to be there." And. everybody be like, "Cool, cool." Cuz. see, they knew how much he loved me. And. I loved him. You know, don't get me. wrong, I'm not going to the dark side.

I'm not leaving the FBI and becoming a. turn code or whatever, but I am human. and you're looking at this dude and. you're like, man, uh he told me, he. goes, "Man, he was patch he was patching. in and he was also working with the. mafia and somebody got snagged on. something and he said he was looking at. time and he said he backed away from it. because he had four daughters at that. time and he didn't want anybody he. didn't want he didn't want to go to. prison." Um, and you hear that and I'm. befriending this dude, but I know if I'm.

in a clubhouse or I I need backup, there. could be three SWAT teams outside that. door. I can show you all kinds of videos. where bad guy walks in and eight shots. are shot before that door knob even. turns, you know? So, if you think you're if you if the only. reason you're doing undercover is. because you're like, "Well, I know I got. three SWAT teams outside." I' I'd say. that's the wrong reason because if the. crap hits the fan, it's really on you. >> Yeah. >> You know, and a lot of times they might. just be avenging your death, you know.

Um but if Scott was there, I felt. comfortable, too, cuz I I trusted him. that much. I knew he'd have my back. He. didn't know who Scott Payne was, but he. loved Scott Callaway. And Scott Callaway. was not too far from who I am in real. life. So, um but we are bonding. And. there's one point in the case and I'm. like I'm I'm rocking his daughter. And. at that time his youngest daughter was. one and my youngest daughter was one. So. if you've been around kids that.

developmental stage they kind of move. the same make the same noises. So it's I. it's easy for me to picture my daughter. while I'm rocking his daughter. And I'm. like man it's going through my head. I'm. like I really like this guy. It sucks. because. a lot of people you ask them what. undercover is and some people will be. like, "Well, you're pretending to be. something you're not. Um, you're lying. You're acting." The true definition of. undercover work is you're creating. relationships that you're going to. betray. And it sucks if you look at it.

that way. You have to figure out how. you're going to do that and rationalize. it in your mind so it doesn't have an. adverse impact on your psyche. So, whatever whatever you got to do, you. know, I don't know. To each their own. But as I'm rocking his daughter, I'm. like I'm like, man, he likes this, I. like that. He likes this, I like that. He likes this, I like that. His daughter. looks like my daughter. And I'm looking. and I'm staring. And again, it's not. like I'm having doubts like I'm going to. turn dark. I'm going to be a 1enter.

Uh, but I'm looking at his refrigerator. His refrigerator had all kind of magnets. and stickers and stuff on it. and my. eyes focused in and I already said I'm a. believer. I'm a Christ follower. Um, but. you see the bands a lot of times in the. Christian community. WWJD, what would. Jesus do? WWJD, what would Jesus do? And. I look on the refrigerator and I see. WWSD. And I focus and I'm like, what. would Satan do? And I was like, we ain't. alike. You going to jail. [laughter].

I'm back. I'm back. But uh yeah, I think. he was just I think he was doing it to. bust chops though. But I was like, "Satan, well, I don't think so, buddy. Them days are over." I left that back in. Greenville, South Carolina when I walked. to church on Sunday morning, sweating, rigging of beer. But um as the case went on, we were. really, really tight. And uh so the case. is growing. It's a year and a half now. Um year and a half in. And I would say.

at this point my closest relationship is. Scott Town. My second closest. relationship is closine the enforcer. My. third is Joe Dogs the president. And. then trickles on down. Um I've now been. all over the place. We've gone I can't. remember if Miami was I mean if uh if. Daytona was before that or not, but I. know Sturis. We've done all kinds of. stuff. So. was time to up the antie. told you. they're already predicated for dope. The.

first time I talked to Joe Dogs and he. said, "Where are you from?" I said, "Mcallen." He goes, "Where's that?" I. go, "Texas on the on the border. It's. like the border." And he next question, "How much can you get a kilo of cocaine. for?" I was like, "It goes for about 13. right now down there." He goes, "Man, if. I can get them for 13." I go, "No, no, no. You don't get them for 13 up here. It costs more up here because it has to. be brought from the border up here. You. want to come down there, you might be. able to get them for 13." But so now I. start laying out this uh because we've.

done all this stuff. They've seen my. operations. They've seen, you know, they've invited me in to do stuff. They're they're asking me to become an. outlaw. Um I'm in their clubhouse all. the time. And I said, like I said, gone. on trips with them. And now we're up in. the Annie. Now I lay out this elaborate. story that takes time. But essentially what they end up. learning is that I did used to be in the. dope game and I got out because they.

popped people in my group and the heat. was getting too close. I've already. explained everything about me moving. stuff south. They think I'm taking all. this stolen equipment south. Well, I've. only I've only stated what's true. Like. if if a grenade goes for this much here, it goes for this much in Mexico. I'm. working with all this cars. If the. truck, if a semi-truck is headed south, a lot of times if law enforcement is. looking for money going south, money or. guns, like we talked about earlier, but. if it was a truck full of stolen. vehicles, I played it off to the outlaws.

like, "So, what's the big deal? Maybe. you seize the truck, maybe you seize the. vehicles, but if it's a valid bill of. laden, well, how's the truck driver. supposed to know? He's just picking up. cars. He looks at you going to take him. to jail." Played it like that. But I did. let them know that I used to be in the. dope game and they know I got truck. drivers. They know I deal with the. cartel or they believe this anyway. Um. and I explained to them in case anybody. was wondering how come the gringo has. not been booted out of this Mexican.

really opainly Mexican operation. And my. story was is that I was the guy who had. the dirty contacts at the checkpoints. and at the port of entry because there. is corruption. Gotcha. >> Yes. The FBI works public corruption and. down there you would get you would get. the border patrol agent who gets 15. grand to just do this. 10 to 15 grand to go next. I mean. >> if you're hurting for money. >> Yeah. >> and you're vulnerable and you are. >> Does that happen a lot down there?

>> I I don't say a lot cuz I want to say I. want to make it sound like everybody's. dirty, you know? But. >> but yeah, corruption is an issue. Yeah. And and even a small department like. what if you're a two or three man. department and you make I don't know 40. grand a year maybe some of your family. members if you grew up there some of. your family members might be working. with the cartel. It's just yeah it's. it's a it's a different it's it's. different. >> It's different. And when you're working. with the cartel they value life they.

they don't value life like we value life. >> you know. So. I tell them I'm not getting cut out. because I'm the one that does that. That's all based on facts so I can sell. it and make it look real. So now I'm. laying out that I'm I was in the dope. game and I'm letting it because I again. Joe Dogs and several of them from day. one year and a half straight man if I. can meet a pipeline if I can man if you. can hook me up with somebody down just. put me on the phone with them whatever. Maybe I'll come down and meet somebody. because as a drug dealer what do you. want? You want the purest dope you can.

get for the cheapest price you can get. it at. That way you can step on it, mix. it up, double your money, maybe triple. your money. Um, so as I'm laying this out, the. breadcrumbs, so to speak, Joe jumps, starts picking up on it. Next thing you. know, we've got a full-blown plan to. where he's going to get a chance to meet. my cartel guy because we've got a dope. load coming up. My truck drivers are. driving it. We're going to take a dope. load uh and we're going to meet a cartel.

coming from Canada. Uh, I laid out the. story that I wasn't letting them drive. into Canada because they lost their they. lost their inside person at the port of. entry and I wasn't going to risk my guys. going to jail. But if you want to come. into the US and that's kind of way it. played out. Um, techniques been used a. good bit. Matter of fact, as I'm laying. all this out, the name I mentioned. earlier, Jack Garcia, he had been doing. I didn't know it. He'd been doing a uh. public corruption case and somehow. Boston was involved even though he was. down in the Fort Lauderdale area, but it.

was all over the news. Drug protection, drug protection, FBI sting, drug. protection. And I'm like, oh. that's what I'm trying to do, you know? And I'm like, so every time I tried to. word it, Sean, I would I would try to. not use the words drug and protection. I'd be like, security, making sure it doesn't get ripped, kind. of thing. Um, but we up the Annie and. and they believed that they were going. to get a chance to meet my cartel member. and we laid it all out. So, other.

undercovers came in and uh to help me um. much as I've helped other undercovers on. their cases and stuff and uh they didn't. know it, but we had 1,000 lbs of real. weed and 40 kilos of real cocaine. Now, that means the SWAT team's going to. be set up. There's going to be snipers. in place watching this whole deal go. down because can you imagine if 40 kilos. walked out in the street that was our. responsibility and one person got hurt.

off of one gram. That's our fault. >> Yeah. >> Right. So, at this point, Scott and I are like. connected at the hip. And it's the night. before the operation. And again, a year. and a half in, and we've been laying all. this out, and the FBI, I'm sorry, the. United States Attorney's Office was. asking me, the assistant United States. attorney, uh, Peter Levit, he said, "Hey, Scott, are they talking about this. stuff in the clubhouse?" And I said, "Yeah, I mean." He says, "Make sure if.

you can make sure we can get that on. recording because I mean if they're in. the clubhouse talking about this drug. protection and what roles are going to. be, it just helps with like asset. forfeite and search warrants and stuff. like that." Um, so of course I said, "Yeah." I'm like, "Yeah, that's what we. do. I'm going in to get the evidence.". So Joe Dogs had told me, "Come over.". But it was the night they have church. And for those that don't know, uh, a lot. of your 1% a lot of your clubs period. have a mandatory meeting once a week. They refer to it as church. Some clubs. that's where they hide their phones, cut. everything on uh airplane mode, go in,

talk dirty business. Some it's just. shooting the bull. But he calls me over. and it's the night they're having. church. So I get to the clubhouse and. I'm knocking on the door. I'm knocking. on the door. I'm knocking. He's not. coming. I'm like, "Man, what the hell?". He opens the door like, "Hey, what is. it? We're not ready yet." So I'm I'm. kind of being a smartass. I'm like, "Well, then why did you tell me to come. over here?" You know? So he says, "Hey, take this probate." Somebody that's on. probation trying to become a full patch.

member. He says, "Uh, y'all go get. something to eat and come back." So I'm. like, "All right." So go get something. to eat, a drink or two, come back, and. we go in the clubhouse. Well, when we go. in the clubhouse, um, for those that don't know, at least. in this clubhouse, if you're not a patch. member, you can't touch the door, you. can't answer the phone. They respect me. They let me in there all the time. They. give me drinks for free. Um, but that's. the rules. And the door is a steel. frame. Um, it's of course it's got dead.

bolts and locks on it, but they had. taken u they had welded two metal hooks. onto the frame and laid like a metal bar. across it. Kind of like a shipyard bar, you know. So, from a breacher. standpoint, it'd be a little bit of a. tougher breach, right? Maybe it's better. to breach around the door than through. the door, depending on what kind of. tools and stuff you have. Um, so I'm in. there and I'm cracking jokes. What you. can't see is um I've got I've got a.

audio and video recording device. I've. got a audio recording device. I've got a. trans I got all kinds of things on me. And. but. somewhere in my clothing is is one of. the devices. And what you can't see is. like I'm at the bar and I'm my my body's. facing this way, but I'm like looking. right here. So, I can't see what my. camera's seeing. But after everything was over and I got. to go back and watch all this stuff,

what you see is me telling the joke and. like if I look down at Spanky and I'm. like, "Hey, man." You know, because I'm. a jokester. It's like we're laughing. laughing. when I would turn stone face. I just didn't see it cuz I was looking. but you see you see him like you see him. like that's funny take that's funny. >> I didn't see it. I didn't pick up on it. >> Damn. >> Um you got you got a song by Leonard. Skannard playing over the loudspeaker. and in the back you got Chocolate Scott.

doing this and at first you're like, "Oh, he's dancing." No, he's not. dancing. He's warming up. He's doing it. to the beat of the song, but he's. warming up. And then uh. about that time, clothesline, my second. closest friend at the time in in the. case anyway, um connection, I should. probably say, uh he says, "Hey, Tex, can. I talk to you for a minute?" I'd been in. that clubhouse so many times. There's. one door I never went in. I didn't know.

what was behind that door. And he says, "Can I talk to you for a minute?" And. I'm like, "Yeah." And as he's turning, he turns and opens the door. I'm right. behind him. Chocolate Scott comes in. right behind me. And I go, "Ooh, that's. not normal." And it's a tight stairwell. You go down to I I think the the book. says it's a basement. That's being. really really generous. More like a. crawl space. I mean, I couldn't stand up. straight. Probably touch the wall on. both sides, but you know, like a bench.

and stuff down there. And [snorts] I. think there was even a bedroom under. there, like the basement area. But. so I get down there and I'm freaking out. right now cuz I'm like, "This is not. good. This is not good at all." And one. of the other outlaws comes down and I. see him I see him doing this. Like there. was something I saw rope. I didn't see. plastic on the floor. Um which I was. looking for. And for listeners that may. not know, in this type of world and.

environment, if you walk in kind of. mafia style and you see plastic all over. the floor, that's probably not a good. sign for you because the whole idea is. they kill you and they just grab the. four corners and pick it up. No, no. blood to clean up. Um, so I saw rope. I. didn't see plastic. And I hear him say, "Hey, let's go back upstairs for a. minute. He's got to do something." I. don't know what it was that was down. there that that other member was trying. to hide or get rid of. I don't know if. it was dope, weapons, what. I'm not. sure. But then they bring me back down.

So I'm upstairs and some people are. like, "Why don't you try to leave?" I. go, "I don't know. I mean, could I have. gotten out the door? I don't know. 12. Outlaws or so after their church. meeting." Um, so I'm looking at Joe Dogs and I'm. burning holes through him because Joe. Dogs is the president and he controls. that whole clubhouse. And when he. finally looks at me, I say something. like, "What's up?" and he says something. like, "Ah, don't worry about it." And. then looks away. So then they come and.

they take me back down. Now they go. down. They've already brandished their. weapons. They brandished their weapons. when they took me down the first time. They both got pistols. Um, pretty much. you're not free to leave, right? Yeah. Yeah. Another another reason not to rush. for the door. >> So I go down and that's when closine. says, "Look, there's a lot of going. on. It's my job to take care of my. brothers cuz he's the enforcer. He says, "I need you to write down your full. name." Your full name, your date of.

birth, your so your address, wife's. name. He said, "I'm not going to ask for. your kids' names. Not like I can't find. it, but I'm not going to ask for it.". And uh and he says, "And then I need you. to take all your clothes off. Got to. check you for a wire.". >> Year and a half. And I was like, son of. a. because of the stress level, um the oh. moment, the oh crap moment, adrenaline dump, whatever you want to. call it, um for those that don't know, you I think most adults have experienced.

it, even if it's in a car wreck, everything slows down and goes in slow. motion. You get auditory exclusion. Everything you hear sounds like you're. underwater. It's going whoosh, whoosh, but it's slow. Scott, take off. And then you get time dilation. in your eyes. Everything's clicking and. screen grabs. It's not smooth. You can. feel your heart beating through your. whole body. My hamstrings get rubbery. You know, you you have other parts of. your body you feel like are right here, [laughter] your throat.

Other parts of your body that are. squeezing and clenching. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> I'm like, did you hear that? Did you. hear that sound? That was me sucking the. air out of the room. That's it. cuz I. was like, "Oh, no." But because of that. and the stress, I forgot my middle name. So, tactically, we always talk about. bleed on the range so you don't die in. the street. We're working reps, working. reps, working reps. So, it becomes. instinctive. Some people say muscle. memory. I like to say you train till it. becomes in uh instinctive. I can show.

you video after video. I'm sure you can. show me military gun toers, cops in. shootouts. They have no idea how many. rounds they shot. They have no idea that. they did an effective magazine exchange. They have no idea they did behind cover, but they did it because they've been. training it. So, in the undercover. world, you got to do a lot of that in. your head. What ifs or go role play at. the school or try to get some reps in. somehow. So, I'm looking down at that thing and. I'm going Scott Callaway, Scott. Callaway, Scott Callaway. And I'm just.

going through this rolodex in my brain. It feels like it's forever, but it's. not. I'm having that adrenaline dump. I'm going Scott Callaway, Scott Joseph. Callaway. I'm like, "No, that was middle. name of the first alias in 96." You. know, I'm like, I'm going through it. While I'm doing that, I turn. I have no. idea I do it. I would have never. believed it if I not seen the recording. I turn and I go, "And what else do you. need?" Although it's not that clear. because I'm having a crap moment and I. think I'm getting ready to get caught. It's more like, "And what else do you. need?" With a higher pitch voice, my.

throat's [laughter] tighter. Yeah. It's. like, "Should I ask what's going on?". Um, and then I hear him yell up to the. probate, "What do you need for that. website?" And I go, "Oh, okay. Now. they're going to search me. They're. going to Google me. There's some. websites back then like who's.com. Maybe. they can cross reference and make sure. I'm not a fed or a snitch." And um then. I remembered my initials and I was like, "Oh, okay." And I wrote down my name. Well, now I turn around and I take off. all my I take my boots off. I take all. my upper body clothing off and I drop my.

uh jeans and underwear around my ankles. So, from my ankles up, birthday suit, completely naked. And they checked me. for a wire. Um, didn't really check too hard uh around. my my feet. Um, but check me and I'm. like again that adrenaline dump. I'm. still down here now. I'm coming out of. that adrenaline dump. I'm feeling better. cuz he's like, "Okay, he's not fine.". He's like, "All right, he's cool. Hey, can you hug me?" You know, now I'm.

cracking a joke. Can you hug me? But. it's a defense mechanism, too. You know, I'm scared. I'm scared shitless. And uh. yeah. >> And he says he says, "Yeah, and I think. I'm good. I'm pulling my pants back up. I don't think I got my boots on yet.". But then he grabs a piece of clothing. and that piece of clothing had the. recording device in it. And I thought I. was done cuz my voice is coming back. You can hear me like starting to talk. normal. Breathing's a little better. And. then he says, "Hey, I'm not going to. find anything in here I don't want to.".

Right? like some pictures of my old lady. and he laughs and he goes and my laugh. is like. I hope not. I'm standing there on the. wall, can't stand up straight, and I'm. watching him take this piece of clothing. and he's going down it with his hands. And I'm like, he's going to feel it. Even though I got a thicker leather, even though I got this, I did that, I. did this, tried to put stuff somewhere, he's going to feel it. And uh. as he's getting close again, I don't.

know. I do it. You can hear in the. recording though. I go. [laughter]. because I don't even know I'm doing it, but I'm just watching my I'm watching my. life. I'm like, here we go. I don't know. what I'm going to do, you know? I mean, I can't even stand up straight. If I try. to fight, I'm probably going to do a. Tommy boy. Crack my head on a joist and. knock myself out anyway. But, um, he. looks right at it and misses it. >> Are you serious? >> Yeah. Right at it, misses it. And then, and then we're done. And I'm like, "Oh,

thank you, sweet baby Jesus." You know, >> and uh then I just start talking. business now that night. >> Um. I I was running on adrenaline. >> and I was and I was pissed. I shouldn't. be pissed because I'm really not Scott. Callaway. I'm really Scott Payne, an. undercover FBI agent, but I took that. personal. I'm like, "You can be my. boy for a year and a half, but you got. enough balls to take me down to a. basement, strip me at gunpoint." Fair. enough. I am an undercover, but uh you.

know uh. >> am. >> so I went out um and a lot of people ask. me since I've been I've been teaching. this since like 2008. um this whole outlaw thing. And I get. asked a lot. They're like, "Man, what. would you have said if he would have. felt something?" And I said, "Well, I. only had two answers." And I remember it. like it was yesterday. My first one. probably wouldn't have been a joke. because he gave me that line. And he's. like, "Hey, not some pictures of my old. lady." Right? If he would have said, "What is this?" I'd have been like, "I. don't know. Some pictures of the old.

lady just to try to buy some time, get. him off, you know?" Um, but the only. other answer I have is this. The gig is. up. I'm an undercover FBI agent. I can. walk out of here and we can see each. other in court or all hell's getting. ready to break loose. Problem is this. To my knowledge, every time I'd been in. that clubhouse, my team couldn't hear. me. whether it's walls, equipment, >> distance, who knew? But I would have. been a bluff on my part. Um, but that.

night when I went to hand in my stuff, at the end of the night when the when. the shift's over, we meet at a. predetermined location. I hand them all. the recording equipment. Maybe they give. me more money for the next day. We do a. quick debrief about what went down. Um, that night when I rolled up, uh, I found. out that they had heard everything. the. two task force officers that were on the. main case team. Uh, one's a sergeant, uh, he's retired now, but Sergeant. Higinbot him out of Ma Massachusetts. State Troopers. Everybody called him. Higgy. And then you got Detective Joe.

Cummings from Brockton PD. They started. the shift on me. Whatever that first. interaction between me and Joe Dogs was, it made them think something wasn't. right. And what they the way they told. me is they had pulled close enough and. they heard everything. And they heard me. in the basement and they went ahead and. vested up, strapped up. They called back. to the office Boston and said, you know, whoever was available, man. They got him in the basement and they're. stripping him and he's wired to the. hilt. And uh.

>> so they tell me that they were all. everybody was coming blue lights and. siren. And and the plan was that the. task force officers came up with, excuse. me, was they had been in that clubhouse. on law enforcement activity before, so. they kind of knew the door. Um, they. were going to drive the van into the. cinder block wall right next to the door. if they felt like it was time to pull. the trigger. Um, but even though my. voice was clearly different than they. had heard it, they could tell I was. scared, but I didn't break and they.

didn't pull the trigger and we live to. fight another day. But. >> you guys didn't have a code word or. anything. >> Yeah, you can. But if they can't hear. me, I mean, mine is, you know, I mean, I. keep it simple, man. It's like, you. know, I'd go on so many things and. they're like, >> "Hey, uh, you got a code word?" I go, "Yeah, if I yell help multiple times in. a row, >> that's my code word." How about your. physical code? You ever seen platoon? If. I look like William Defoe running across. the field, >> that's that's my that's my physical.

sign. But uh they just they were. listening and and a lot there's so many. things that goes into that kind of. training too. You can say, [clears throat] "All right, uh to give. us a signal, pick your head up, scratch. your head." Never done it in your entire. life. Soon as you start talking to the. bad guy, pick it up, scratch your head. You know, >> everybody comes. >> But another thing, uh the case agent was. a buddy of mine. Uh we were in through. the academy together uh as new agents. and he told me he said he said Scott and. he said man when I was coming down that. highway with blue lights on he said man.

I felt like I was in there with you. I. said you weren't. [laughter]. I said man I was looking for a friendly. face anywhere down there. Uh and then. there's a comical well I'll finish the. comical part after I tell this this is a. kind of a sad part but um or touchy. Um, at that point in my life, my daughters. were three in one. I'd bought my wife, what's commonly referred to now as a. burner phone. Doesn't come back to. anything. That way, I could call her. from my undercover phone. Um, and.

no matter what time it was, I would call. her if I was on my way back to the hotel. room. 4 in the morning, 7:00 in the. morning, didn't matter. Usually, it was. real quick. Just want you to know I'm. okay. I'm headed back to the hotel room. I'll call you when I wake up this. afternoon. Okay. Sometimes we chat a. little bit. That night when I called. her, the first thing she said was, "Are. you okay?" The night of the basement. >> Wow. >> And I said, "Yeah, why?" And she said, "I don't know, but in Macallen driving. around tonight at such and such time.".

She goes, "I just got this." She was had. the girls, she was running errands or. something. She said, "I got this. overwhelming feeling of fear for me.". And she pulled over on the side of the. road and started praying for me. So, I. mashed it up and it was when I was in. the basement. >> Holy man. Pretty wild. Pretty wild. I can't believe I got that. Usually I cry when I tell that story. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. Um, but yeah. >> Your daughters were three and one. >> Yeah.

>> Were you thinking about them down there? >> In the basement, I was probably more in. survival mode. I don't think I was I. don't think I It was one of those things. where I see my family flash before my. eyes. I'm more like trying not to vapor. lock. Keep talking, keep listening, try. to get some intelligence, keep keep. moving, try to get out of this thing. >> A lot of guys think getting healthier. means adding more and more things to the. routine. More supplements, more. tracking, more protocols, more.

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subscription order. That's arm.com/srs. So, you didn't you didn't think that you. were 100% dead? >> No. No. But I was scared shitless. And. that's what people say. Well, what would. have happened if they found it? I don't. know. Probably an ass weapon at a. minimum. I don't know if they have shot. me or not. Who knows? Mafia would have. killed me. You know,

>> they would have chopped me into pieces. But, uh, so I'll tell you this though. I. I start building that block of. instruction because it was it was my. mentors that would call me after all. this stuff happened. They're like, "Hey, country, as soon as you can, take care. of yourself. You know, put pen to paper. about what you've learned through this. whole thing because that's how we pay it. forward." And and I was always been an. instructor kind of anyway. So, um I did. and I loved it. But the entire time I.

didn't know I mean I watched that video. over and over and over and over and over. and I'd get butterflies and all this. stuff and then finally after time passes. you you can watch it with no problem. But it hit me what song was playing the. entire time I was in that clubhouse. It was Give Me Three Steps by Leonard. Skard. The whole premise of the song is. a dude that's in a bad spot and he's. trying to get out. Give me Three Steps. Give me three steps, mister. Give me. three steps towards the door. Give me. three steps. Give me three steps,

mister. You never see me no more. There's even a part in the song he's. like, he was lean, mean, big, and bad, Lord. You know, he was staring down the. the barrel. I mean, all this stuff. And. I started thinking I was like. >> kind of synchronicity. >> Yeah. I was like I was like, man, >> was Vanzan trying to send me a message. from the grave? You know, and then with. my stupid sense of humor, I'm like I. said, I was probably over there praying. going, "Lord, if I'm not supposed to go. in this clubhouse tonight, if you'll. just send me a sign, won't you give me. three?" I said, "Hey, can you turn that.

down? I'm trying to talk to Jesus right. now." I said, "Lord, I apologize. These. people can't." [laughter]. Yeah. So, so we lived to fight another. day, man. The next day, I got up uh I. didn't sleep. If I slept, it was. probably like 30 minutes. Got up and uh. went to do the deal. They showed up and. we did it and I paid everybody and it. went off nice and smooth and we. accounted for all our dope and uh and. then we were still off to the races.

>> when they outlaw stuff. So then as we're. culminating towards the end of the case. by this time I had befriended several. people in the Florida area and stuff. like that as well. one in particular. named Hillbilly. And as far as I know, Hillbilly was like the first hammer skin. head to ever become an outlaw. Um, and. Hillbilly. and we hit it off. I don't I still don't. know the connection between Taton and. that Massachusetts area and the Florida,

but they I don't know if somebody would. went down there and stayed. I don't know. what the pipeline was, but I'd met him. up in Massachusetts. So, we're going. down to Daytona to do the uh world run. And um by the time we get there, this is. how this this story ends. Uh I was a. zombie. I remember my MMO like, "Hey, don't let the bosses don't give them a. reason to say no. Work harder. Try to. outwork everybody." Well, it was it was. starting to be at my own detriment. I. would go on an undercover on through the. weekend, but I would come back and I.

wouldn't take any days off because I. didn't want management getting mad at me. for being gone on the undercover. And. then I just this vicious cycle started. snowballing. And it got to the point. that at the end of a three-year period, uh, I was a walking zombie. I was on. antihistamines, decongestions, inhalers. I was taking a veteran, uh, drinking a. bunch of coffee. I mean, I'd drink a pot. of coffee and fall asleep. And that's. that's not me. Um, I was exhausted. And.

we have something in the FBI called. safeguard. It's a psychological. assessment unit. It's under the umbrella. of the undercover program, but it gets. used for other things, too. Like if you. work innocent images, you get it's. safeguard that does your assessment. But. if you're an active undercover in the. FBI, you you have to get assessed. Um, and they kind of assess you into a case, through the case, and out of the case. There'll be a post like, "Okay, how did. that end?" kind of thing. And generally. the way it goes is you go in and take a. bunch of tests. A lot of them are tests.

that most businesses give their people. anyway, but it's psychological questions. and stuff. And then you go and and sit. down with a psychologist certified or. licensed. Um, and then they may be an. FBI agent. They may be contracted in um, and then you sit down with somebody like. a a seasoned undercover maybe like a job. who helped create the safeguard unit. Anyway, uh, it was him and another guy. that created that whole thing. Um, but. then you sit down with them kind of like. that. You can't a bullshitter.

thing. So, you can't UC a U. We use. undercover UC as a verb. >> Um, and then they'll follow up with. questions like, "How how's this how's. your office supporting you? What's your. wife thinking?" You know, things like. that. So, one of the tests uh is. open-ended sentences. So, it might say. women are and you got to finish it. Men. are, you got to finish it. My badge and. gun are my mom is, my dad is. Um, one of. them was the last time I relaxed eye.

And I went and did an assessment right. before I went to Daytona. And I'm in. there and like I said, by this time I'm. a zombie and just self-medicating, I. guess. Uh, and I got to that one where it says the. last time I relaxed eye. And I'm typing. and I look and my mind went blank. I. literally couldn't think of anything. I. know it sounds dumb. It sounds dumb me. saying it right now, but I cannot think. of one thing I did to relax. And I and I. was like, well, I work out. And I go,

yeah, but it's not like I'm doing. Namaste and listening to Yanni and. trickling water. I'm throwing iron, you. know? I'm like, that's good for you. It's good for your endorphins, but I. don't know if that's relaxing. And I. remember thinking, man, that is messed. up that you can't think of any way to. relax. And then I made up a story. I. didn't know I was already done. So, I. get the Daytona. Uh, I go out with the. Outlaws. I partying. Um, by this time, Hillbilly sees me, calls me in, backs me.

up to the front of the clubhouse, walks. me in. I'm not a patch member. Walks me. in, gets whatever drinks I want, goes. carries me out to the back with the. tented area, uh, which to my. understanding at that clubhouse only. patch members should be there. But he. brought me out back. We didn't know it, but he had become the re southeast. regional president. He eventually became. the national president, but um. and they were we were standing out back. and it was it was very crappy code, but. mentioned something about cuz one outlaw. wanted to kill a Hell's Angel and he was.

upset and he wanted to retaliate right. now and it was like, "Hey, don't do it. right now. They're expecting it. You see. how long I had to wait to do that thing. up north?" Something like that. And I'm. like, "Oh, is he talking about the. murder?" You know? So, I go back that. night and I debrief everything to the. case teams from Jacksonville, Florida, FBI, and uh Boston. And the way it was. worded to me was, man, they've had people in and around.

Hillbilly. He doesn't talk like that to. any of them. Boston, where's your case. at? We pretty much got everything we. want. Let's talk to the US attorney's. office and headquarters. But what if we. don't take Boston down yet? Scott, you. come down to Florida and try to patch. under hillbilly. And of course, I said. yes. I was like, absolutely. But I. didn't know I was already done because I. got up the next morning, you know, if. you've ever done it, especially in the. younger years, uh, you wake up, you can. hear and feel the whiskey swishing in. your belly, you know, with the eggs. still there from Waffle House night.

before. And I got up and I said, "Man, I. feel like a fat piece of trash." I said, "I'm going I started doing a workout in. the room, something P90Xish. It's like, you know, push-ups, mountain climbers, squats, burpees, which I suck at because. I got a lumbar fusion. I don't really. bend that well. But, uh, I was doing all. that and I came up for air and it wasn't. there. And because of the stress and. everything that I was, so how worn out I. was, I didn't realize that for months. I'd only been chest breathing. I was so. stressed I wouldn't even expand my bill.

I was breathing all right here, which is. going to it's not good for you anyway. But before I started that workout, I. woke up. I did the inhaler, albeit that's a vasio. diilator. Uh I'm sorry, a bronchio. dilator. Uh I did antihistamines, decongestants. I took three hydroxy. cuts, which is a federan, and drank two. cups of coffee. I later learned, at. least from what the doctor told me, that. that is a cocktail for an anxiety. attack. I said that was just trying to.

wake up. Uh but uh yeah, so I. hyperventilate. I forget all about. combat breathing, box breathing. I. forget about paper bags and and uh I'm. just that worn out. And uh the truck. driver undercover knocked on my door. right about that time. I'm just in a. towel, but I'm as white as a sheet. All. my pores are open. I'm just sweating. My. lips are all tight. He's like, "Are you. okay?" I said, "I don't think so." So, we go sit on the balcony overlooking the. ocean. We're talking and he's like, "You.

know, sometimes," he'd been around for a. while. He's very experienced guy. He. goes, "Sometimes. we get this extra stress or these. stressors um because we're fearing the. end of the case. Sometimes we're fearing. the fact that they're going to find out. who you really are." Sometimes we're. fearing the fact that you're going to be. going to betray them. Sometimes sometime. he starts these things. He goes, "Is it. any of those?" I said, "It is now." I. said, "Dad gum it, man. I didn't have. any of that in my head and now I do.".

And I took a nap. I self-medicated and. went back out. I should have went home, but I didn't. Um, and when I went home. from that trip, wheels up to wheels. down, out cold. Woke up to the plane hit. the ground. Hardly ever happens to me, if ever. Same thing from Houston to. Macallen. I get home and I bet you the. first day I slept 20 hours. Um, the the next from that Sunday, I think. it was Sunday to Friday, I average over. 16 hours of sleep a day. I wasn't. depressed. Um, I wasn't sick. I know. what they both feel like. I was that.

tired. So, come Friday morning, uh, I'll. say a former friend of mine. I don't. think he likes me anymore, but I still. love him, but it is what it is. But he. called me and he says, um, he said, "How you doing, country?" And I. said, "Not too good." He was calling to. tell me about another case that was. going to be coming up and maybe we could. do it or something. He let me talk for. an hour and I basically talked my he let. me convince myself that I needed to. self-report to safeguard and that Friday.

evening I I put a call in because I knew. the psychologist one of them anyway was. a friend of mine and I called her and. said hey I don't know what's going on. but I think I'm crashing. So they came. down within two weeks or so they came. down and did an on-site assessment. special on-site assessment and uh. I was diagnosed as over assigned and. they put me on timeout. I'm not going to. be doing any undercover work for a. minimum of six months. Go back to the. office. You know, reintegrate if you.

need to. I really didn't cuz I was still. a case. I d whole thing, but um. but I did finish the case on the phone. Um they they allowed me to do that. So, what I did to help solidify everything. for Boston's office and the case team is. I stayed on the phone. I gave a story. that I was getting divorced, that I was. going to relocate my soon tobe ex and my. two kids to El Paso where her parents. were at. Um because I wouldn't be able. to look at myself in the mirror if I. didn't do that. Um but once that's done,

I'm coming north. I'm sick of this heat. That's the way I laid it out. Everybody. was like, "Hell yeah." Um I mean, there. was calls from Joe Dogs trying to get. some kilos of cocaine from me. um just. talk about a club we were creating uh to. to be a support group for the Outlaws, talking to Scott Town all the time. And. and then uh I got a call from one of the. uh there was a member named Tim Sylvia, not not UFC Tim Sylvia, but um but Tim.

Sylvia, he had been in prison a lot and. he's an [clears throat] outlaw. He's a. Brockton chapter outlaw. I met him. before my crash and. he called me and he says, "Hey, you. know, he knew about the drug deal and. all that stuff." And he's like, "You. know what I'm in?" And I go, "No, not. really." He goes, "I'm into that magic. powder stuff." And I'm like, "Okay." I. said, "What?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "Okay." He says, basically in crappy. code, he says, "If I can get a kilo of. cocaine at 18 grand price, he's got. enough to buy 10 of them right now." He. also had a Hum or two uh a $100,000 BMW.

he wanted to report sell and stuff like. that. So I called the case team and. said, "Hey, do you want me to set this. up. or you just leave it alone?" They said, "No, man. Set it up." So we set it up. and. uh when he goes when my truck drivers, they they were posing as my truck. drivers when they go to pick up uh the. stolen cars from Tim Sylvia. Um, I mean, if you hear the recording, you can even.

hear me on the phone. I'm brokering now. I'm like, "Hey, I'm in I'm literally in. my garage Mallen going, "What corner are. you on?" All right, they're over here. Okay, he's over here. Hook them up. They. pull up. You can hear me on the phone. You can hear the other undercover. talking to me. And then he puts Tim on. the phone. And Tim's like, "Hey, uh, uh, you know, I got this, this, this." I. said, "Yeah, okay." I said, "When are. you going to report the BMW stolen?" He. said, "Friday." I said, "Can you wait. till Saturday?" I said, "I just need I. want I want a 24-hour buffer to make. sure that thing's in Mexico." He's like, "Yeah." And uh and I they put the.

undercover back on the phone and he. says, "How much am I supposed to pay. him?" I said, "Are the cars there?" He's. like, "Yeah." I said, "21 grand." And he. gives him 21 grand. And then when they. were loading the cars, Tim solicited. them for the 10 kilos at uh at 18 a. piece, and they said, "Yeah, we can do. that." So, the case ended with a. reversal. It it it went they were they. were showing up with the 10 kilos and. then the SWAT team takes down Tim Sylvia. and that starts all the arrest off. >> Wow. >> And what was rough.

for me is well I didn't get to go be. part of the takedown but I'm pretty sure. that was probably safeguard saying no. travel, you know. Um. >> you you would have wanted to do the. takedown. >> I would have liked to been there. It's a. great tool to have. Um, especially if. somebody's in there lying, uh, and then. you come walking in like the TV and go, "Hey, just so we're clear, I'm special. agent Sky Payne, FBI agent." And then. they go, or you're like, "All right, yeah, I was lying." Or if I feel like.

that person may be a threat to me, I I. may want to go talk to them at the. arrest and say, "Hey, this is what this. is." Um, maybe if there was a source. involved and they think they know who it. is, maybe I'm going to tell them, "This. is not the pissing contest you want to. get into." kind of thing. Um, I always. my for me my best defense is a good. offense. That's just me. I just if I see. somebody I put in jail eyeballing me, I'll walk right up to them. Hey man, how's it going brother? Hey, [snorts]. you clean? You on the straight and narrow? But uh,

so I was putting on training. It's the. first time I taught the block on the. outlaw thing. And um, it's the night of the takedown. I've had. to draw diagrams of all the houses I've. been in, all the apartments for all the. SWAT teams and arrest teams that are. going to be hitting all these places, which was stressful, too, because I'm a. tactical guy and I'm like, I don't want. anybody getting hurt because I wrote. something down wrong. But, um, I go back to my room and I already told. you UC school long hours. I go back to.

my room and my phone's chirping and I. check and it's a message from Scotttown. and I chirp him up. Next tails were big. I chirp him up and he says raspy voice. because he's just woke up. It's the. middle of the night. He goes, "Hey, I. just want you to know uh your uh your. truck driver and that other guy's always. with him in Big Timmy. They got locked. up." And I'm like, "What?" He goes, "They just got locked. Somebody just. called me said they're in jail." And I. said, "Well, you know, they're not doing. anything for me, but they do stuff on.

the side." I said, "Let me figure out. what's going on." Something to that. effect. And he says, he says, basically, he says, "I'm going to get up, get. ready, I'm going to find out what's. going on, and I'm going to call you. back." And I said, "Okay." Our last. words to each other was, "He says, "I. love you, brother." And I said, "I love. you, too." And about 40 minutes later, SWAT team at his house and he went to. prison. >> Damn. >> Yeah, that's real. >> Is he still in prison?

>> No, he's out. You worry about that at all? >> No. Mm- That bond was real. >> You don't worry about that? >> No. No. Not with him. That that bond was. real. He's uh. he made a mistake, but he's a good guy. in my eyes. >> You ever talked to him? >> Huh? >> You think you'll ever talk to him? >> Mhm. >> Have you? I can either confirm or deny.

because I have not been given. permission, but the bond is real. >> Right. Amen. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's been people. that I've put in prison undercover put. in prison. So, not just me arresting. them, me betraying them. Uh. I'm going through some family stuff. I. won't talk too much about it, but I'm. I'm I'm going through a divorce. And.

let's just say that. December 29th of last year to middle of. February this year, it's touch and go. Uh, and I know you know about it. I know. you probably got military friends. I'm. I'm I'm. gave up. I felt like a failure. I didn't. want to be here anymore. I'm not saying. that to get sympathy. What I'm saying it. is is at least I practice what I preach. because I turned this block into mental.

health at the end. But I used to talk. about it in past tense, but now I can. talk about it in present tense. But at. least I made phone calls. I tell people all the time when I finish. training, I'm like, if somebody else. doesn't say it, because if your. listeners don't know this, first. responders and military, and I mean. first responders, I mean medic, fire, and blue and gun toers, law enforcement. Medic, fire, law enforcement, military, we are very high, if not number one, in. suicide.

We are very high, if not number one in. substance abuse, divorce, and dying. within 5 years after retiring. >> So, as of July 1st of this summer, I'm. not that statistic. cuz I made it over five. But I made the. phone calls and it is a blessing that. two of my pastors literally live two. doors from me. Um, and I was surrounded. by good people. People had to come and. spend the night. Um, and then in.

February, I took a turn for the better. I took a turn for the better. But I tell. people, number one, it does not mean you're weak. if you need help. That's a stigma we've. got to get rid of in the first responder. military. It doesn't mean you're weak. In my opinion, it if you go. I I say [clears throat] this. I said I I. tell when I'm teaching and stuff at the. end I'm like I get the proverbial don't.

talk to the psychologist at your police. department cuz where does somebody leaks. cuz it happens all the time. I get that. but go get help somewhere. I also get counselor or psychologist. hurt. You go in and you meet somebody. and it did not go well at all. I parlayed this from my pastor, but have. you ever had food poisoning? >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. Did you quit eating? >> Nope. >> No. No. [laughter].

I might not get a sub at that place. anymore, but I'm going to go get one. somewhere else, you know. Uh, so go find. it. And I I tell people this. I go, "Look, look at it like this. They've got. a toolbox, and it may have tools you. never even seen before, right? If I gave. you a hammer and said build a house, that's going to be tough. But if I. rolled three semis of the best high, whatever we got, anything we want, best. tools in the world, it's going to be a. blast. We might even be able to build. one in 30 minutes like they do on TV. But.

maybe they can give you a tool and you. can take that back to your toolbox. It's. just the suicide rate's just too much. It's just we got to do better. So, >> there's a lot of avenues now to go down. to. >> Yes. >> keep yourself busy, get yourself out of. those holes. >> Yeah. >> We talk about a lot of them on this. show. >> Yeah. Uh I was talking to somebody out. there with the the Iagain and Hayawasa. and stuff. >> Um I can't do it. They told me I can't.

do it. I've got a buddy of mine that's. uh he's he's big into the Hayawaska and. when all that was going on um. [clears throat and snorts]. he was setting me up to where I could go. get a treatment but uh. when I in 2002 I went down. we figured out what it was. It was back. surgery complications basically the long. and short of it is for 3 weeks I felt. like I couldn't breathe. I would eat. this much food feel like I couldn't. breathe. Well, by the time we figured. out what it was, turns out there's some.

damage done. And turns out when I. crashed and had that panic attack in. 2007 or eight, my mind reverted back to. 2002. That's when the counselor's like, "Oh." Cuz she was like, she's like, "Have you ever been scared before?" I. said, "Yeah." I'm like, "Really scared?". I go, "Oh, yeah. Yeah. 2002." I said, "My wife and daughter flew out." I said, "I one thing I was at SWAT training. I. couldn't breathe. I panicked. I panicked. for 3 weeks." And as I was saying it, I. went, "Oh, no." And she goes, "What?". And I go, my mind reverted back to 2002.

And she says, he got post-traumatic. stress. And at that point, even as an. educated guy, I was like, but I wasn't. in the military. >> I didn't know you could get. post-traumatic stress out cuz I only. heard it, you know, from like war and. stuff. And uh yeah, she told me after I. told her all that stuff from the outlaw. years, those three years, she says uh oh. my, she goes, "Oh my goodness, Scott, the average person would have crashed a. year and a half ago.". >> Oh yeah. And I said, "Thanks.". >> And she said, "That wasn't a.

compliment." I said, "But I'm better. than half. the I'm better than average, right?" So, uh, I say. I say all that because I think we need. to do better about getting out there and. and our brothers and sisters making the. phone call. Um, >> there's a lot of things coming out now. There's a um. company called Envy Mind Health. >> Okay. >> You heard about that? You've heard about.

the wearables that you know that track. your um your vitals, heart rate, >> all that kind of stuff. Sleep. >> I got a friend uh Johnny Wilson and uh. >> I know Johnny. That's who I was talking. about. >> You know Johnny Wilson? >> I you not. That's who I was talking. about. He was going to hook me up with. Haywa. >> Yeah. Okay. >> I'm I'm an alert instructor. So he. started uh envy mind health. So he put. you put these wearable you know you ring. um any of them you know the the the.

whoop um and you you can you can make it. so that these go they kind of report. into a friend group. So you got your. friend right. >> awesome. >> and if and so if your vitals start your. sleep starts getting up your. heart rate starts rising you know all. these all these vitals start I I would. have loved to seen what mine would have. read before my panic attack. >> So, it'll kind of alert your friend. group and then your friend group could. be like, "Oh, what the going on?".

They call you up, say, "Hey, Scott, how. you feeling? You doing all right? I see. you're not sleeping. See, your heart rate's getting up. there.". >> Some huge accountability. >> You know what I mean? And it's pretty. it's actually pretty cool. You know what. I mean? >> I can't believe you didn't tell me that. cuz it's probably because you listen to. me cry about all my [laughter]. >> But, uh, >> he was a lifeline call though. But there. is uh there's a lot of good stuff coming. out now. >> Well, man, >> I want to hit on that, but real quick, I. want to say this. You might want to clip. it back. I don't know how you do it, but. I just want you to know what I was what. led me into telling you all that stuff.

about the divorce and hurting. One of. the people I put in prison who I. betrayed. was my hugest emotional support animal. during that entire damn time. >> Damn, man. I'm talking checked in in the. morning, checked in at lunch, checked in. at dinner, every day. Wake up, you son. of a You're one of the most alpha. male Viking dudes I've ever met. And you. can beat this. I mean, who would ever. Wow. >> Who would ever? I told him, I said like, "Look, man, you need to choose your.

friends better." He's like, "What are. you talking about?" I said, "I'll put. you in prison." [laughter]. >> Still to this day. >> He's like He's like, "You're hanging out. with a felon." And I go, "That's true. Yeah, I'm retired. Whatever. Uh. [laughter]. but uh so go back to go back to uh. Johnny. Um I swear I didn't know that. So I met Johnny through Alert, the FBI. and Alert, A L E R T. Uh based out of. San Marcos, Texas after the Sandy Hook. school massacre, Department of Justice.

from the top all the way down. Obama. even during they said no training, whatever, we couldn't travel or nothing. They said, um, an agency in the Department of Justice. needs to be the lead on active shooter. training for law enforcement. And they. chose the FBI. I'll say, not being biased, but I'll say. I think it was a good choice because the. FBI has a SWAT team in every field. division and we have a principal. tactical instructor in every field.

office. In order to be the principal. tactical instructor, you have to be a. firearms instructor. currently you have. to be SWAT certified. All these building. blocks. Then you become an active. shooter instructor. So they picked the FBI and my peers in. Quantico and the tactical training unit. were going around and looking at. different programs. There's several. programs out there, but they settled in. with Alert and we married each other in. 2013. So in 2013, I think about. 125 to 150 tactical instructors from the. FBI over five week a week class, but.

over five weeks we all went and got. certified as active shooter instructors, uh certified instructors with alert. So. all through those years, I was I was. helping teach and getting certified in. the the solo officer response, uh a. race, which is outdoors, a lot of. military type stuff, getting certified. So when I retired from the FBI, um I applied to be an adjunct. instructor. So now I'm not getting paid. by the FBI, but like two two or three.

weeks ago, put on a class. Somebody. requested, they host it. You see the. classes, you put in for them. You got a. regional manager and I went and uh we. taught a oneweek train the trainer and. if you pass, you're a certified. instructor uh with alert. my first class. uh post FBI on probation. My first class. was Johnny. >> and we've been best friends ever since. >> Yeah, >> man. How the hell did I not know this? >> I don't know, bro. So So the other thing.

is is uh I mean, man, he saved his own I. mean, he did end up getting ampu. amputated, but he saved his own life on. that motorcycle wreck. He was guiding in. he we're talking about the same Johnny. Wilson. >> No, we're not talking about the same. Johnny Wilson. I saw you looking and I was wondering. >> J sock. >> Nope. >> Nope. All right. That's a different. Johnny Wilson. >> Different Johnny Wilson. >> That's crazy. >> He's not an ampute. >> Okay. Cuz that's why I was like, man, he. didn't tell Why would he not tell me. he's got these little accountability.

buddy things. All right. So, another. Johnny Wilson. But I'll tell you about. my Johnny Wilson. Uh he's Jay- Sock. He. did have a motorcycle wreck. He he saved. his own with the stop the bleed. had had. a bystander uh makeshift tourniquet. guided EMS in but he didn't end up. losing from here down. But he's the one. that just crazy because [laughter] you. and you said it. He's the one that was. telling me a lot about this stuff and I. and. >> maybe I should preface it with this. >> I'm friends with the owners of CPI,

Cellular Performance Institute. >> They're based out of Tijana. >> Um they are partnered with UFC. So you. watch the octagon, you'll see CPI stem. cells. I'm kind of a spokesperson for. them and they now have well it's not. them but there is a uh nonprofit. uh the Miracle Hope Foundation raises. money for first responders and military. to be able to get those treatments cuz. they are pricey but um.

they're doing a lot of things to help. I've seen a lot. I've met a lot of. people. I've been like three times now. I've met a lot of um uh former military, former spec ops, and their body's. healing from all the stem cells. So, the. pains, they're painfree for the first. time in forever. And and now you're. like, "Okay, that helps mentally, right? That's going to help cut back on this. I. don't want to live anymore." And one of. the times I was coming back, uh oh, let. me say this about CPI. The stem cells.

they do down there is. If you do stem cells in the United. States, you're probably getting boine or. your own body fat. It's just not as. much. And it's not umbilical. >> Yeah. >> Umbilical cord donations. And down there. you get like I mean I got 20 million in. one shoulder, 10 million in that one, 70. million in my neck, 120 million in an. IV. >> You're getting hyperbaric oxygen. chamber, ozone therapy, all this stuff. And there there's some amazing things. happening. But it's also helping with.

the mental health. >> Yeah. >> A lot. Um, I will say it's the best. hospital stay I've ever had. People hear. Tijana and I was sketched too, man. I. worked the border for six and a half. years. We talked about cartel and I went. down there and I'm like, it's where you. stay, restaurant district, where the. hospital is, medical district. It's uh, best hospital stay I've ever had because. my last hospital stay in the United. States, I almost died. I think we were. talking offline, but I had a hip. replacement and 13 days later I was. full-blown sepsis. and almost died. Had.

two hip surgeries in 14 days. And that. hospital stay, Labor Day weekend, understaffed. You're not getting your. medicine. I'm down there at the at the. center, man. I'm like, "Yeah." So, coming back, one of the last times I. came back, I'm coming out of the the. Sheran Hotel. I'm hopping on a bus, a a. shuttle bus. I see a bunch of dudes that. look like they were CPI people. And we. start talking. It's all former military. and they were coming from Ambio. So they.

started telling me all about Ambio and. uh and then that the documentary that's. on Netflix and I watched it. But what I. heard is this and my friend Johnny's the. one that that that found this out for. me. But um. in 2002. when I had the whatevers. doctor prescribed venifaxine effect is. the the name. Um, I've been on it pretty much ever since.

So, I was getting ready to go do Hayawasa. I. was going to try that. Um, I you can. tell me. I don't know, man. I'm like 18. hours or more. I'm like I don't know. I. might be scared. I'm not might be I. might be I am scared. Um, but what they. came back like three or four different. doctors said if you're on that an SSRI, an SSNI, it's going to compete with what. the Hayawasa and the Ibagane or the DMT.

is trying to do. And they said you could. go into seizures or you won't have. anything happen at all or it'll be a bad. ride. And I'm like, I don't want any of. those. But for whatever reason, you can. do ketamine if you're on an SSRI or an. SSNI and you still disassociate. And uh I've done six of those. I've done. six six treatments with that. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> How were those? >> I disassociated, man. I was [laughter]. >> I was flying, you know.

>> Did you get anything out of it? >> Yeah, I did. Yeah, I did. cuz I was I I. was crying a lot cuz that was uh that. was during some of my that that rough 2. and 1/2 month stretch I guess. Um but. man, I'd just be going in crying and as. I'm as I'm going in, I'm going, "Please. stop this plane. Please heal me. Please. heal me." You know, and then I would be. But I I had some uh I had some epiphies. Um. but I really had a good guide, too. I. mean, that helps when they come in and. talk to you if they're if they're really. knowledge knowledgeable. um and a good.

listener or just good good person with. great advice. But um one that hit me was. I have a lot more love to give. It's a. weird one. I came out and I'm like what? And then another one I came out and I. was like, uh the Lord put me here to. serve. Pretty much what I've done. Still trying. to. Right on. Um, and then you know that book's finished.

Maybe I'm starting my new book. >> Good for you. >> Yeah, that's what we're trying. And for. some odd reason, I would end up at least. three of the six I would end up in the. woods and I'm looking at all the trees. and they all turn around and they're all. Sasquatches from that movie Harry and. the Hendersons from the 80s. [laughter]. And every like you can't control like. you're flying and I'm flying. I'm like, "Okay, oh, I'm back. I remember this. spot." Okay. Okay. And I go, "Oh." And I.

look and they all turn around and they. go, [laughter]. "What?". >> So, one of these days I'm going to see. Harry and the Hendersons on TV and it. may throw me into some kind of ketamine. I just introduced my kids to Harriet and. the Hendersons. They're obsessed with. Bigfoot. [laughter]. >> So good. >> Nobody talks about that movie anyway. That's weird. But even like it's. just he's going off by himself at the. end and all the all the trees are. Sasquatches. [laughter]. >> Yeah, I I did. I did. I had some good. things out of it.

>> Um. but I don't know how that compares to. Ibeane or or Hayawasa or DMT. >> Well, I've done. two I gains. >> Okay. >> First one went great. Second one didn't. go so great. Uh. >> so that's what I'm afraid of. How many. hours? >> Oh, I think this last one was about 8 I. think we started about 8:00 p.m. and I. was still in it.

I finally got out of the room at 400. p.m. the next day. >> So, what's it 20 hours? >> Dang. >> Yeah. And then I did 5 M and uh pretty. sure I experienced hell. >> Yeah. What's the five? What is that? The. DMT? >> It's the Toad Venom. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's DMT. >> And that's like a They say that's like a. 30-minute ride or something, right? >> Just as soon as you hit it, they're like. boom, you're flying.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I don't even like talking about. it. It's so dark. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. They call it the God molecule, but. I didn't feel any god. Not on that one. >> And the first one went great. quit. drinking. I'm what, four and a half. years off booze now. So, >> really? >> Yep. Yep. >> Crazy. You think that's the DMT or the. Ibeane? Or is it the both together?

>> Oh, that's the I gain. I mean, it's it's. got uh I think it's pretty much. scientifically proven at this point that. it replenishes receptors and uh in your. brain, so it takes cravings away and can. cure addiction. [sighs]. >> That's what they're saying ketamine. does. It works right here. Yeah. Yeah. But. >> but for some reason you can still do it. with and what it what it'll do it'll. help you back off. It'll help. That's. why I started. They said if you do the. ketamine you can back off of the effects. or the vinyl vaccine. >> Yeah. Mine was a was a light switch. I. just didn't want any booze anymore.

Didn't want any really anything. and it stuck everything but marijuana. And then uh I quit that off this last. one. It's only been about a month. But um. yeah, I don't know. You know, I got uh. it's helped a lot of people, but I got. mixed feelings about it. >> I wonder why. So, what I was instructed is do the.

ketamine to back off the effects, then. you're off the effect, then you can go. do the ibane and the hayawasa. That's. why I was doing it. But at a certain. point with everything going on, I was. down and I'm like, I'm doing too much. There's too much going on. And I'm. heartbroke. I'm going through all this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You know. >> Yeah. >> Um and uh I just I just went back to. regular medicine. I'm like this until. this all settles it down. But I I would. I really would like to try it.

>> Which one? Arane or both? >> Yeah. I mean my friends that I know were. pushing Hayawasa more. >> I've not done that one. I don't know. It's mushroom based, I guess. I don't. know. >> Have you done Have you done just regular. psilocybin? >> Maybe try that. I wonder if I can do that with it. I. just don't want to bust out into. seizures. And I don't want to have a bad. trip.

>> That would be bad. >> I [laughter] know. I don't want to. I'll be I'll be that guy flopping off. the cliff. What happened? I don't know. He had a bad He had a bad trip. >> Let's take a quick break. There's been a lot of attention lately. on how important sleep is, not just for. recovery, but for your brain, hormones, immune system, and for your performance. And the more research comes out, the. clearer it gets. If your sleep is off, everything else gets harder. That's why. I use Helix. I've had my Helix mattress.

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>> All right, Scott, we're back from the. break. >> All right, let's hit the base. >> Let's do it. So, um, the book, it's kind of like the book. ends. Um, it was one of the last big. cases I did. Um, actually kind of got me. thinking about retirement cuz you're. coming up to 50 years old. How many. young. young guy groups can you infiltrate.

unless you're the pedophile, you know? >> Mhm. >> Giving them beer and stuff. Um, so when. you say white supremacy, um, a lot of. most people picture like KKK, you know, and I did that. There's stories of that. in the book, too. I I infiltrated them. is a little more comical than. serious I think. But um the base is this. they're called accelerationist. So. by the time I retired,

let me say it this way. When we started. this investigation, it was considered. kind of cringe if you were a white. supremacist to be an accelerationist. Um, but by the time we finished, almost. 90% of your national socialist neo-Nazi. white supremacists online were claiming. accelerationists. And this is what this. is. There's a book called Siege by James. Mason. He's a longtime white. supremacist. The book is essentially. articles of interviews, but he. highlights and admires people like uh.

Satan, [laughter]. Charles Manson, you know, good role. models. Um but. it's. the way I was taught is this. When I. infiltrated the base, I was told by. them, hey, this is what we are. An. accelerationist does not believe that. there's a political solution for the. white race. They believe that society is. going to collapse on its own uh or for. man-made events, and they want to speed. it up. But they want to speed it up.

through guerilla warfare tactics. Small. hits like power grid over here, train. derailment over here, poison water. system here, murdered lefty here, just. chaos. >> Um, not a lot of forethought or. afterthought, you know, but it's uh the. accelerationist views kind of came about. in the 80s. I believe the group was. called the Iron Order or just the Order, but they were the ones that were taking. off um like armored cars and p I tell.

people I go if you want to picture like. militia anti-government because militias. aren't illegal but anti-government meets. doomsday prepper meets white. supremacist. So we're out there. training. You're you're you're always. building your battle rattle your kit for. the Bugaloo. And they refer to the. Bugaloo as like D-Day. um the kickoff to. the race war, but they are the new neo. they're they're neo-Nazis. They're. national socialist but accelerationist. And uh this group, the base came out.

after Adam Waffen. Adam Waffin was. created by James Mason who wrote the. book Siege. Um, but. the base we we started getting uh from. our world working partners and stuff. These accelerations are pretty big on. like what they call flying or stickering. and or postering. Essentially, it's me. and you. We're all hooded up. We're all. covered. We park here. We walk down as. far as we're going to go. Don't get. picked up by any cameras. And on the way.

back up, maybe you got the spray glue. You're spraying it and I'm slapping the. I'm slapping the the poster on there and. we're just going up and the poster would. be like save your race, join the base. and there'd be pictures of like training. and some swastikas and stuff on it and. then there'd be a QR code. You hit that. QR code, it takes you right to a. Bitshoot website to a propaganda video. to help recruit you. Because what I'll. say is this. I've seen I've seen a lot. of, you know, you see chatter and some. haters after some of the interviews you.

do. I just want everybody to understand. I'm talking about far-right extremism. because that's what my skill set led me. into. Um, but I have peers, mentors, people I've been blessed to mentor, uh, that work all other sides of extremism. And I will tell you, if you look at. radical jihad, if you look at far-right. extremism and far-left extremism, the. the techniques are very, very similar. The radicalization of teens and young. ones online is very, very similar. Um, and they all end up in their belief.

system usually end up with their own. little space, whether it's a caliphate, an ethnostate, whatever they want to. call it, where it's almost socialism. You get stuff for free and it's only. whites over here, or you got your. caliphate over here, or you got this. over here. Um, it's very similar. Um, but. they came on our radar um because these. flyers and stuff were coming up, but. they're also popping up all over the. world. So our world working partners, whether it be Australia, London, whatever, they're reaching out. And we.

deter we were able to figure out that. the leader of the base is a guy named. Ronaldo Nazaro, but online he went by. Norman Spears and Roman Wolf and other. monikers. Um, this guy is a US SIT, US. citizen, uh, born Villanovagrad, former army intel. Trying to think if I missed anything. He. contracted with the DOJ somewhere. I. don't First they were saying it was the. FBI, but I don't think it ended up being.

the FBI. Uh, and now resides in St. Petersburg, Russia with his Russian. family. And he is trying to start, they're trying to make a comeback. We. pretty much made him defunct after our. case, but they're trying to make a. comeback. They're claimed some murders. in Ukraine and stuff, but so these. flyers start coming and we're getting. all the reports. Meanwhile, we have. coverage online of whether they're. covert employees or whatever, but you're.

seeing this chatter online and it might. be a moniker like TMBB and we're like, who is this guy, man? He is spewing some. crazy stuff. Cuz if you spew too much. crazy stuff. like in those groups and on those apps, they'll they're going to start c they're. going to say you're glowing, then that. means you're talking Fed talk or you're. a snitch. Or they'll be like, "Hey, man, that's fed talk." In other words, you're. going to you keep talking like that, the. feds are going to be in this room kind. of thing. Um, but they a lot of the. groups use like Telegram, Wire,

uh, WhatsApp, maybe Riot, Threma, 4chan, 8chan, 12chan, Discord, all these. things. Now, am I saying that everybody. on Discord is doing bad stuff? No, not. at all. But do bad people go to Discord. to do bad stuff? Absolutely. >> You know, it's like I tell parents with. kids these days. I mean, look, man. If. your kids playing Roblox and Fortnite. and Minecraft, awesome. If they're. playing those games with a headset on, awesome. But you need to know who.

they're talking to. >> Yeah, we've covered that quite a bit on. this show. 764 called Yeah. >> all the that's going on on Roblox. >> So, so 764. has an accelerationist view. So if you. look at your accelerationist groups like. the base, like uh Adam Waffen and these. other ones, if you start scratching at. the surface, you're going to probably. find at least one member in there that's. messing with Order of Nine Angles. And. Order of Nine Angles is white supremacy, but heavily heavily heavily satanic.

You'll see Order of Nine Angles tied in. with 764 and cult and hell and all those. other groups. um not necessarily white supremacy, but. still that kind of accelerationist. uh anti-government. chaos thing. >> So, how did this pop up on your radar? >> Well, I am I was involved in the. undercover program. I was the undercover. coordinator at my office. We were. running undercover operations and so I'm. always working with those headquarters.

units and I I don't know who told me or. how maybe I was there when it happened, but over time it's like, man, we got to. put somebody in on this group. And I'm. like, "Hey, I'm free. If y'all think I'm. good for it, I'll do it." And they're. like, "Yeah." So, I had a good buddy of. mine who's a task force officer, really. good online. Uh I had him sit down with. me and I said, "Hey, I need you to help. me build myself up online so I can start. bumping into these guys." Cuz they were. uh recruiting online like on Gab. You'd. go in there and the the the channel.

group would be for whites only, and. you're like, "Well, I wonder what I'm. going to find in here." Or it'll be like. 14 words. Well, that's this that's the. 14 words coined by David Lane is. renowned in white supremacy. Um, so I go on I create an identity and um I. go on to Gab and I start looking at some. of their stuff and they're they're like. posting, hey, we're a we're a unit of. survivalist group and we like to train. and blah blah blah and okay. So I email.

it says, hey, if you're interested, email here. So I like some of their. stuff. they like me back. You know, I'm. a guy my best friends now. We liked each. other online. Uh, [snorts]. so. I email and for about a week to a week. and a half I'm getting email questions, questions, questions, questions. And I'm. >> question. >> I mean like uh my ethnicity, um, height, weight, what skill set do I have in any. kind of fighting, training, guns, stuff.

like that. What are you going to bring. to the table? Um, what groups have I. been a part of? Is there anybody in my. family that's non-white? Things like. that. All kinds of stuff. Um, so I do. that and then I'm in I'm looking I'm. like, man, they're only answering me. during this block of time during the. day. And I'm sitting there, I'm looking. I'm going, wonder what time it is in Russia right. now. And I'm like, I bet you it's Nazaro. answering my questions because it was. like if he worked till like 5:00 or. something, it would always answer right. in this. But it's it was that evening.

sweet spot time in Russia. Um, and I was. I'm pretty sure we didn't I don't think. we confirmed it, but I'm I'm 99.9% sure. it was him. Cuz then I'm instructed to, hey, download the wire app. And again, these these. [gasps]. these extremists are using these apps. because they believe they're encrypted. Some some of them are encrypted end to. end. they're based out of like Sweden or. somewhere else where the feds here are. going to have a hard time subpoenaing. that information, you know. So, it's.

essentially to thwart law enforcement. activity. >> Um, so they instruct me to download the. wire app. I get on it and uh uh I hit. them up and I'm told that I am going to. do a it ended up being about four or. five people on the call, live phone. call, panel interview. So, so I'm like. trying to school myself. I'm like, I've. read some of Siege. I got some things I. know I could talk about with Siege. All. right, good. Accelerationist Identity. I. know that my backstory is I was a skin.

head. I've already got all that covered. in South Carolina. Boom, boom, boom. Got. everything lined up and I'm ready. So, I. said, "Well, what if they grab me? What. if they tell me to take my phone and do. a 360 in the room, you know, cut the. video on and do a turn?" I'm like, "Let. me go down in the woods." So, I go down. in the woods. I tell my wife and kids, I'm like, "Hey, I'm going to be in the. woods on a undercover call. Don't be. coming out screaming my name and stuff. I'll come up when I'm done.". So, I'm down there. It's about 10. minutes to the call and it's before I. had this arm sleeved out with tats. I. out of the corner of my eye, I looked.

and my whole arm was black and I went I. looked down. There's that many. mosquitoes. My whole arm was covered and. I was like, "Screw this." [laughter]. In fact, I'm not going to call from the. woods. And I went running up to my old. truck and I made sure it was clean. Nothing's in it. that says Scott Pay or. anything like that. And I I drive over. to an abandoned parking lot, a closed. movie parking lot and uh I do the call. It lasted about an hour and 15 minutes. Some of the voices on there were very. young, very young.

>> Um and I was asked questions like, "How. are you with taking instructions from. somebody younger than you?" Uh there's a. lot of young people in this group, you. know. Uh, are you are you willing to accomplish. anything or are you willing to do. anything to accomplish a goal? You know, they told me about somebody who had a. relative that was like, uh, it it put. like a sliver of non-white in them and. they said it and they booted them. But. I'm also they also explain to me what.

their goals are, what they're doing, preparing the kit for the Bugaloo, uh, what accelerationism is. And at the end. of the call, Nazara says, "Look, I'd. like to give a 24-hour rest period now. Now you know what we're about and we. know about you. Gives us a chance to. decide if we want you. Gives you a. chance to decide if you want to be in. it." And true his word, about 24 hours. later, I got a ping and it said that. they were willing to they would love to. have me join the base. And I said, "I'd. love to join." And then they said,

"Where are you at?" And I said, "East. Tennessee." And they said, "The closest. sale, C L." cuz I got a country accent. Uh the closest sale to you is in North. Georgia and you'll be contacted by the. by the uh sale leader and I'd mentioned. that we had seen this guy TMBB online. like spewing stuff and everybody was. like, "Man, who is this dude?" Wow. How. man, he was talking some crazy crazy. stuff. Well, guess who ended up being my. sale leader? TMBB. >> Wow. >> Yeah. We had no idea. I was like, "Holy.

crap, it's him." Um, and I'm called and now I got to go down. to Rome, Georgia to do a face toface. meeting to be vetted in real life. IRL. is the way they refer to it in real. life. And then at that point, I'd be. brought in. Um, so, you know, we create all that. You're. working with different case teams. You're trying to identify uh people and. stuff and and and I go down to meet the. case team in Georgia and they just ping. me a location. So I pull in, it's a.

cemetery. I'm like I start laughing. I. get out. I go because there's a whole. task force there. I'm like, "You guys. trying to tell me something by having me. meet you in the cemetery?" [laughter]. Pretty morbid way to start, you know. Uh. and then they say, "Hey, man. Do you. mind if we slap a tractor on your. truck?" I said, "No, go ahead." Because. you got to remember, I've never met these people. We at that. point, I don't even think we knew who. TMBB was. We knew we were going to meet. TMBB, but I don't think we knew who he was. yet. So, picture, you've got an.

undercover going in. Could be hopping in. a car with somebody. You don't know who. they are. We don't know where you're. going. And a storm's coming in. So, that's going to cut out some aerial. footage. You know what I mean? Some. aerial surveillance. So, they had instructed me um when I got. they said, "When you get to Rome, uh. take a picture." Oddly enough, there was. a statue of a Roman wolf in Rome. Take a. picture of that. Send it to me. I want. you to park in this parking lot. These. kind of things. And I remember somebody.

on the team was like, "Hey man, you. think they're watching you?" I go, "Yes, they're watching me. That's why they're. telling me to park in a certain place, send pictures and stuff." Um, so they. put the tracker on, I go, and I'm riding. around. and I can't find a parking spot. in parking and which is fine with me. because it allows me to loop the. neighborhood downtown a couple of times. acting like I don't know where I'm going. looking for a spot but I can also be. looking to see if I pick up counter. surveillance or whatever right or. surveillance on me. Um so I find a spot. and I pull up in there. >> Did you pick up any?

>> No, I didn't see any. I didn't see any. But the reason is there were only two of. them. I didn't know but I was looking. Um so I find a spot. It's behind the uh. coffee shop, I think. And I'm like, "Hey, I'm parked over here. I couldn't. find a spot. Here's a picture of the. Roman wolf." And uh and he goes, "Where. are you at?" And I'm like, "Yeah, I'm. over here." He goes, "Okay, I see you.". So they come walking up. It's is TMBB. and a kid that went by the name. Pestilence. I say kid. Um he's 19 at. that time.

And [clears throat]. TMBB's probably like 6'2, maybe 220. Little frumpy build, moppy hairy, needed. a haircut, thick glasses. Um but thicker. dude. He comes walking up kind of. dressed normal. Pestilence is more like. um tactical 8 in boots, black beus. bloused into his boots, but a black tank. top that has some black metal band on. it. Um which will be more like your. satanic, you know, death metal, black. metal stuff. Uh those are two different.

things. Black metal. Um. so I introduce myself. Hey man, white. warrior. Yeah, okay. We shake hands and. stuff. And I'm pretty sure they're going. to pat me down. was our first meet, you. know, I would do your due diligence, you. know. Um, and he says, "Put your phone in airplane. mode." And I'm like, "Okay." So, I put. in airplane mode and then he he he pulls. out this thing. And I'd never seen it. one like it. I mean, it looked like a. geer counter to me. I'm like, "What the. hell is I mean, this big it was like. this big radio thing, had a triangle.

card sticking out of it." And I'm like, "Hm." I mean, I'm not rusty. I've seen. plenty of RF detectors and things like. that, but I'm like, "What is it?" So he. warns me. No, nothing. He goes inside my. truck. Nothing. As he's walking down the. driver's side slowly, at least it that's. another adrenaline dump moment. Not. quite like the basement naked, you know. Uh but. he's walking down and this machine. starts going nuts. It starts going.

The lights are going off and I go, "Oh. shit." is picking up the tracker. I. don't know exactly where it's at, but I. saw the agent under my driver's side. quarter panel and he put it up and as. he's getting close, I'm like I start. using my right leg back because I'm like. they're my cover team's not they're not. even close. It's just it's about to go. >> I'm ready. I'm like I don't know if. they're armed. I know I'm not, you know, and uh right when he's getting to it. because we were on a steep hill there. was power lines and they were pretty.

low. And Pestilence says, "Hey, you. think it could be the power lines?" He. turns. Divine intervention for me, man. He I'm like, "Golly." He turns and walks. over and the power lines make it go. nuts. And he's like, "Shit." Yes, the. power lines. You need to follow us. I. said, "Okay." Well, I hop in the car and. I'm calling. I don't know how many. people are watching me. I'm on the. phone, but I'm driving and I'm doing the. stiff lip thing, you know, my my from my. southern roots, you know. I'm like, "Hey, can you guys hear me?" And they're. like, "Yeah." And I'm like, "You need to. cut the tractor off." They're like,

"Well, I said you got to cut it off.". And it seemed like we went back. They. weren't they weren't like arguing with. me. It was more of a safety concern. They were like, "Man, we don't know if. we can cut it off remotely. And if we. cut it off, we don't know if we can get. it back on. We don't even know where. you're going." I said, "I'm telling you. right now, whatever they have is picking. that up. And if you don't cut it off, it's going to be a quick undercover. >> It's going to be over.". >> Mhm. >> And then I follow them and I don't know. if they got it off or not. I'm just. hoping they see me and they're following. me. I hope they got it off. And I follow.

them and they pull into like an. abandoned concrete plant. Like I pull in. and I look up and I'm like, "Oh, that's. funny." Like how many action movies have. I seen where people get killed in an. abandoned concrete plant. The the hits. are just coming today, you know? >> And uh and I remember opening my arms up. and the sky fell. I mean, the bottom of. the sky fell out. So I felt like I was. in a Creed video, you know? I was like. raining on me with arms wide open. And. uh they check me and I'm fine. They. check the truck. They got the tractor. shut off. So that was a.

>> damn. Then we go hit the we go hit the. liquor store and then go to uh Luke's. TMBB's property. His dad had 100 acres. in Rome, Georgia. And I mean, gorgeous. property. It's sad what was happening on. it, but gorgeous property. Uh an older. house that they were renting out and. then they converted the the barn into a. residential top half. Um so that's where. we did all the training. Um, and maybe I. should point this out too. When I tell.

you extremism lines up and it's very. similar, you know what the base is in Arabic? >> No. >> Al-Qaeda. >> Oh. >> Al-Qaeda in English means the base. What. was al-Qaeda's MO? Three to five man. sales all over the world training for. D-Day, waiting for the phone call. What's the MO for the base? Three to. five man sales all over the world. training for D-Day, waiting for the. phone call. Wow. Yeah. So,

Try not to burn myself on that one. Um, so, uh, I sit there. There's some crazy. stuff you hear. Some of these cats, man, they believe that there's the earth is. flat. There's flatearthers. There's. concave earthers. There's hollow earth. And they believe that Hitler's still. alive and he is living in hollow earth. with 15 foot plus tall. They're not a Gans. Maybe a Garin is what it is. Big white. redheaded ginger dudes 15 plus foot.

tall. And I'm like, okay, I do have to. have a little bit of fun. You know, I. go, so what are they waiting on? [laughter]. What is there some significant event to. come back and save the white race or. what? Hitler, come on. What are you. doing down there in Hollow Earth? Come. on up here, buddy. you know, and they'd. be talking like, you know, uh, Hitler. conducted a study that proved that the. Earth is concave. And I'm like, okay. And they're like, yeah. Uh, so he shot a. missile and eventually the missile hit.

the ground. And I go, what if the missile ran out of gas or. power? And they go, well, no. I go, what if. there was a hill or a mountain and it. hit that? And then they were like, well, we don't know the nuances of the study, but it's been proven that the Earth is. concave. I'm like, I go, "What about the. pictures? All the pictures of Earth from. space." Oh, that's one photo that was. made and it's been it's been I'm like,

"Okay, man." But yeah, they they're. armed. You know, a lot of these people, Sean, they they were young. They didn't. have a job. If they did, it was just. some odd job stuff. It was definitely. not a nineto-ive. Uh. didn't have a car. A lot of them had to. borrow a car. Uh, but they're building a. kit. They were wearing Cry Precision. plate carriers. That's the same damn. thing the FBI wears. >> Mhm. >> They're not cheap. >> Yeah. >> You don't have a job, but that's what. you're wearing. Uh, you got your gun.

belts. Um, one guy in the group, he did have a job. He was 30ome, former army as well. He. had a 6.5 Creedmoor and bought a $6,000. thermal scope. Because the idea was is that would. level the playing field at night, even. if he's not that good of a sniper. >> They were talking about taking out cops. at night time. >> I mean, look, you all right, just finish. the car stop. Pow. Take the cop out like. the sniper kind of DC sniper thing. Do.

that. You kill [clears throat] a cop. What do you get? You get bullets. You. get a gun. You get a bulletproof vest, a. radio. What else they got? They were. talking all kinds of crazy stuff. So, I. start getting in the group and. the first. So that was a Friday I met. them. Saturday I got up, came back over, two other members were there from the. Maryland sale. They had driven in. through the night. So there's five of. us. And that day.

uh carbine uh firearms and tactical. training was given by a 19-year-old kid. And it was good. >> It was good. >> It was good. >> He knew what he was doing. >> Yeah, it was good. Not the best. There. were some things I saw that could use. some correcting, but I was also the. principal tactical instructor. I'm not. saying I'm a beall end all, but yeah, you know, from here to LA, if people. got enough experience and been around, but most of your tactical stuff should. be similar. But, >> um, definitely didn't come in as an. instructor because I don't want to.

instruct him. That'd be a liability. I. don't want to make anybody planning to. do bad things a better shooter and a. better attacker. But I'll tell you, it. woke me up cuz I went back to put on the. training for the Knoxville division and. I told all the agents and and task. force, everybody was out there shooting. I go, "Man, I was just with these people. for like 3 days and a 19-year-old kid. led clearing everything." And I'm like, "Okay, you're too young I think to been. in the military and be out, right?" I'm. like I Where did you learn this? I think.

it was gaming and his dad took him to a. range and I mean he was fast shooting. fast shooting and accurate. Some of his. shots were so fast and they did aderall. so that probably had a little bit to do. with it but they they was fast and he. wasn't like riding it. You know how you. can ride the recoil, >> you know, and get that little finger. bump on a AR or a semi-automatic. Um he. wasn't doing that. And then you start. hearing the plans and the hate. And so.

now we're uncovering more. So you're. learning more about this stuff. But. again, I say again as if I told it. before, I hate when I do that. I'm. sorry. But you have to look at we've got. reports of crazy stuff. We've got enough. reason to open a case, but are these. guys just spewing trash that's first. amendment protected, or are they. actually planning on doing something. wrong? And that's especially in domestic. terrorism. That's where you get this. There's no domestic terrorism. There's. no federal domestic terrorism statute. And even if they did one, I'm not sure.

what parameters you'd put on it. There. are international terrorism like um. material support. That's a good one. Um. but there's not. So, so if you're. working as an agent, we're trying to. find out any crime they're doing that we. can just get them off the street. Um so. I start meeting more people in the. group. Um, I'm getting gaining more. trust. And we are uh we're seeing some. people get doxed. And for the listeners. that don't know, that's basically you're. getting outed. So, what I like to say a.

lot to people is hate begets hate. I. don't care whether you're left or right. Hate begets hate. If the right does. something to the left, the left gets. pissed. They retaliate. If the left does. something to the right, the right's. going to retaliate. It's hate begets. hate. So, one of the members uh was in. South Africa and he got doxed. And one. thing the left is very good at, one of. the things they're very good at is. doxing. They will I don't know who's. paying them. I'm not going to go down.

that rabbit hole, but but they will show. up at your house, your business, your. parents' house, your kids' school, and. just sit out there and yell and let. everybody know you're a white. supremacist, right? Um, and then the. far-right extremist person feels like. they just lost their whole damn life. So, what are they going to do to. retaliate? So, this guy gets doxed down. in South Africa and another member in. our group who was also an Adam Waffen. member uh says, "How many of our. brothers have to fall before we.

retaliate?" And in the Hitler days, there was an operation called Crystal. Knot. And Operation Crystal Knot was. essentially the Nazis going down and. smashing windows to Jewish Jews, non-whites, uh, uh, smashing windows, setting the. their businesses on fire, slashing. tires, all that stuff. So, this member. called for Operation Crystal Knot during. a certain amount of days. Well, several. of the base members did go out and spray. paint Jewish synagogues, and I think.

somebody did do something like slash. some tires or something, but not. everybody did it. um they were able to. pull that that base member off uh do a. wall off so we can arrest him without. burning the entire case. So we're also. learning a couple other things. Every. time the base gets infiltrated, whether. it be. vice news article, journalist or. whatever, uh every time they're. infiltrated, their opsect operational.

security gets tighter and tighter. How. did we get infiltrated? How do we stop. that from happening again? Um, and as I. said, at this point, I'm still trying to. figure out, yeah, we're hearing some. hate. We're hearing, but there's no acts. in furtherance of doing something bad to. somebody. >> No, it's just training. >> Yeah. Training and talking. Now, you. might be able to get somebody No, he. wasn't a felon. Maybe a gun violation. I'm not ATF. I know there I don't know. all the gun violations, but maybe. there's a something you could get for,

you know, ghost guns that they're. making, stuff like that. Huh. >> Yeah. >> Um, so we have a member in Canada and he. went by. Jimmy the Frog Rancher at first. I don't. know some of these names. Uh, but he's. [clears throat] doing the postering. thing. So, he's out there in Canada. putting up flyers. Well, somebody. answers. He goes, that person goes. through the same thing I went through. email questions, panel interview, face. to face in real life vetting with this.

member in Canada. So his real name is. Patrick. So Patrick [clears throat] goes. up to meet this guy face to face and do. the face tof face vetting and he comes. back and says he's good. So you get the. notification in the base main chat. group, hey everybody, welcome new member. blah blah blah. He went by Mark or. something. There's about a week or two. of just being in the main chat group and. then all of a sudden this Mark dude. disappears and an article drops in a big. newspaper in Canada. Mark was actually a.

journalist named Ryan Thorp. Um, kudos. to Ryan for exposing neo-Nazis, but dad. gum, bro. No coverage, no re no response. team, no reaction task force, no QR, nothing. You went out on your own and. you went and met a white supremacist. who's probably armed and you're just a. journalist. Kudos, but please be. careful. Right. >> So, he goes out comes out with the.

article docsis. Hey, this guy turns out. that Pat, I think it's their version of. like our national guard, but it was kind. of like the Canadian Army, but he was a. soldier in training. Um, he gets booted. from that. Royal uh RCMP, Royal Canad. Canadian Mounted Police show up at Pat's. house, take his guns. His parents hate. him. He lost his job. And uh there's. news footage of them showing up and. trying to talk to him and stuff. And.

then all of a sudden he abs the last. nobody knows where he's gone but his. truck is found at the border of Canada. and America. So we're like well we're. pretty sure he's here. It's probably our. group that's helping him. Um but we're. it's from there it's it's a it's a. potluck. You've got case teams now all. over the United States. We've got our. world working partners as well, but now. that I'm in the group any given time. there might be 50 members, right? It it. fluctuates. And you would say, I. identify. Oh, this is this person. Okay.

Yeah, that's their picture. They're in. Mobile, Alabama's territory. Well, now. Mobile, Alabama has to open a domestic. terrorism investigation against that guy. and then this guy and this guy and this. guy. And at one point we had like with. the case teams once a month we had over. 100 people on a on a call. Um, and every. Monday, I think it was every Monday, I. was on a call with all the case teams. and their supervisors. um cuz this thing's happening fast pace. So, we had an unbelievable case agent out of.

uh Baltimore and the A USA that we. worked with was phenomenal as well. And. they they went after it like a good. criminal case, which I was stoked about. cuz sometimes you don't see that on the. national security side because they've. never worked the criminal fast-paced. side and sometimes you don't realize. there's all these avenues you can take. in your investigation. But they were. doing some phone crunching and analysis. and then the what they did to figure out. I mean it was awesome like okay we know.

he had this phone but it stops here in. Minnesota at a Walmart that phone dies. but there were some new phone numbers. cut on I mean it's just all this stuff. and we get a shot of what looks like Pat. and the Maryland team leader can't go. back former army guy going through the. Chesapeake Bay toll booth and we're like. oh that looks like him. So, we're. thinking, we just don't know where. And. one day I go down to training and in. Rome and I pull up and I'm looking at.

the cars and I'm looking at the bodies. under the awning cuz it's kind of. sprinkling rain or whatever. And I'm. like, "Okay, I don't see any new cars, but there's an extra body under that. awning." And when I walked up, he was. all bushy bushy red beard and bushy hair. by that point, but as soon as he started. talking, it was Canadian accent. And uh. and he goes, "You might have heard of. me." Blah blah blah. And I was like, I. just grabbed him and said, "Welcome to. the United States, brother." So now we. got him. Now we know where he's at. He's. not wondering. Here's the problem. He. believes he's a ghost because he no. longer lives because he lost everything.

that was valuable to him. And some of. the conversations we would have on rucks. or. just sitting under the awning drinking, just the four of us, pestilence, TMBB. Uh Pat was now punished snake. Punish. snake and me. Pale horse. Um, I mean. it's. for I just want people to understand. because some people look and scoff at it. and they're like, "Oh, it's so stupid.". That's no these dudes were seriously.

talking about Pat said on more than one. occasion. Uh, when the Bugaloo happens, when D-Day. happens, if you're not fascist, that. automatically makes you anti-fascist and. the penalty is death. He would cry, but. he would say, "I'm going to give my dad. the chance, but if my dad doesn't come. to our side, I'm going to have to put a. bullet in the back of his head.". >> Holy. >> Now, he and he said that more than once, and he would cry when he said it. Now, TMBB, whose dad just went upstairs, who.

was down there having a few with us, TMBB says, "Uh, I could I could do it." He goes, "But I. would cry myself to sleep every day." He. said, "So, I'd probably I'd probably get. somebody else to do it for me." And. Pestilence, who at that point in time, I. thought I mean, cuz he was messing with. order of nine angles and stuff like. that. And some of his prayers when we. would do our ritual ceremonies, some of. his prayers were very dark and like.

satanic and like melting flesh and stuff. like that. Um, he actually said, "You. guys are way far ahead of me because. there's no way I could kill my parents. I'm not that far along yet. >> What kind of rituals? >> So, a lot of Okay, Hitler. Hitler loved a. lot of Norse mythology. You would see. like runes and you would see Now, that. doesn't mean that an Odinist is a white. supremacist at all. Um, but a lot almost.

everybody, well, that there's only one. guy that I met that claimed to be. Christian. um not not true Christ. followers, white supremacist Christians. Um everybody else claimed pagan and I've. got friends who are pagan and that. upsets them because they're actually. very peaceful people. As Satru, um you. have different pantheons. So if you're. in the Norse mythology pantheon, you're. going to have Thor, you're going to have. Freya, you're going to have uh Odin, things like that. There might be an. Egyptian pantheon. It may have.

different, but generally I think in the. pantheons that I've looked at, there's. usually like a a goddess of love and. some, you know, you got like a an Odin. god of thunder, Zeus, something. I don't. know. I'm not a guru on it at all. But a. lot of these white supremacists because. they're neo-Nazis, remember, they want. everything Hitler. All of our camo. flearn because the fleck tarn camo. pattern is German. Uh they drank a. boatload of Jaggermeister. Um, I mean.

it's German. Um, but that kind of thing. Uh, so we've had blotss and the blot blot t. is the ritual ceremony um for pagan. One of the ones we had, we actually had. a guy who was in our group, former. national guard as well, got booted. because of his beliefs pretty much. He. uh. he was, I think, an assatru priest. So. he led a block and it was really more.

realistic I felt like. But you're down. there and we would do like they would. they would carve runes uh into a wood. but then they would put swastikas and. stuff on it. We would cut ourselves and. bleed on the wood and set it on fire and. we would be praying to our gods until. the fire burned out. Stuff like that. Meade. They had me drawing runes on your. chest having a worship ceremony. And. then afterwards you might have uh uh is. it the they pronounced it shaman. I. heard somebody say shumain the other day.

but I'm not a guru but you're going into. the spirit world kind of thing. So when. I'd heard pestilence pray at those. >> you were doing this stuff. >> Yeah. Yeah I did. >> Holy. >> Yeah I prayed I think I prayed to Rolo. Yeah. >> What is that? Ragnar's brother. Viking. stuff. >> Jeez. >> I mean, my whole arm is all This is all. Viking. But for me, I was doing all. those undercovers. I always knew I. wanted the armor of God and armor of God.

tattoos I've always seen as either. Knights of the Templar or like gladiator. stuff, and I didn't want to do that, but. I went. It's really Viking, but it's. really armor of God. All the shield. belt, even my lightning is Psalm 23. And. then once I retired, I went ahead and. put Ephesians on my arm. Um, yeah, big Viking stuff. So, and I'm. down there doing it with them. And, you. know, I told them I'm like, "Hey, man. I'm I can't have fruit." [laughter] So, they looked up a way that where, "Okay, I have to be an evergreen, but I can do. this and do this and sling the meat on.

you." And I'm like, "Yeah." So, I'm in. the woods in August sweating with my. shirt off with white supremacist getting. the [laughter]. >> holy. >> Getting the paint stuff. >> Are they sacrificing anything? >> No, not yet. >> Not yet. >> Uh, not yet. So now I'm getting in. tighter and some people are coming and. some people are going. We've now found. out where Pat's at. So we got him in. place, but we're hearing these crazy. things. And sometimes you hear something. and I'm like I mean when you're. undercover you got to be careful not to. look suspicious. So how can I circle.

back to what was that you said? You know. kind of thing. And uh. we were hearing some things but we. weren't we we we weren't sure. It wasn't. enough to go charge anybody with. anything. That's for sure. So, um, and. right now we've got an undocumented. alien in the United States. Now, I've. got him handling weapons, so that's. another charge. But, do we want to blow everything for just. this or are we getting in even more? And. at one point, they asked me, they go, "Do you think we have enough coverage?".

The teams and the management asked me, "Do you think we have enough coverage. just with you in there?" I said, "No." I. said, 'As, as long as they're having. direct messages between each other and. I'm not a part of that or we're not a. part of that, we don't we don't have. full coverage. It's just the facts. You think we got. full coverage? I mean, you got access. No, I don't. No, they're they're side. messaging. I don't know this sale over. here. I don't know this sale over here. Um, so now fast forward to Halloween of. 2019 as I take a sip of this.

caffeinated, not caffeinated. Yeah, caffeinated beverage. I was thinking. carbonated. Plugging somebody trying to make money. [laughter]. Um, so fast forward Halloween of 2019. We're having what is commonly referred. as a hate camp. There's probably 12 or. 13 dudes coming from all over the United. States. The people from overseas for.

whatever visa, passport reasons, whatever, they couldn't make it. Um, so. we're down in Georgia on the 100 acres. and we're there all of us for a good. three or four days I think. So Halloween evening, it was weird. because it had been like it hadn't been. cold that year yet, but that's the night. the cold front blew in and it dropped to. like it went from like 60 to 20. So I'm. not a former Navy Seal. That was a. little fast for me to [laughter].

to acclimate. I even went to Walmart and. bought some base layers. I'm like, I did. not know it was going to get this cold. Um, so we do I do handtohand combat. That's the thing I brought to the table. But, you know, when the lawyers at. headquarters are like, "What? You're. teaching them?" I'm like, "No, I'm not. doing the Patrick sees rip the throat. out thing. I'm not teaching them how to. do that." [laughter]. Cuz it's real, man. The real roadhouse. But, uh, I said, I'm just going to do. some ground escapes. you know, somebody's in a full mount or you're in.

full guard, whatever. And uh we did. that. We did some carbine training and. then that cold front blew in. And we're. out there and we're just messing around. Got tent set up, fire going. And I go to. charge my phone. And you know how it is. when you're frozen and you hop in that. warm truck and start kind of after I had. a one or two, you know, you get in. there, you get that toasty and kind of. nod off a little bit. So I nodded off. and I woke up to my door beating. Pale. horse, pale horse, you gotta wake up.

You gotta wake up. You got You ain't. gonna believe this. You ain't gonna. believe this. I'm like, "What the hell?". I jumped up like, "What?" And they go, "You come out here. You got to see. this." I'm like, "Yeah." They go, "You. remember us talking about a sacrifice?". I go, "Kind of." [laughter]. I mean, I vaguely remember something. about we got a goat. And I'm like, "What?" They had gone. I'm probably not. even a mile down the road. You pass it. coming in to the property. Dude's got. three goats. They went out there in. their fleck arm with the balaclavas. which was their look. When I got. introduced when I got introduced or. accepted into the base I was issued my.

balaclava and I was issued uh uh the. base patch which was three eyewise runes. which signifies uh birth, death, rebirth. So the three three runes. So they go out. there with their balaclavas all fle. camoed out ARs, AK-47s, jump in this. dude's backyard and he heard them or. they started making noise. Everybody. beds down. This dude comes out with a. flashlight. I'm like, it's no wonder.

nobody got killed, you know. So they. steal this goat or ram. I don't know the. difference. It was a big goat with. horns. Um, and I get out and one of the one of the. other dudes in the group whose whose. moniker was Dimma, he says, "Man, this. goat's all over the bed of the. truck." Um, can't go back. Had a had a. Chevy Colorado SR2 or ZR2. SR anyway, nice truck. Add all kinds of stuff to. it. Um, small block diesel, I think.

Either way, it's crapping all over the. bed of the truck. And I go, "Well, I'd. be crapping all over the place, too, if. a bunch of Neanderthalss and Flearn just. jerked me out of my backyard, you know.". So, I see Eisen. Eisen is a member, and. he's the one that's going to be pray. He's going to lead the block tonight on. on Halloween night. And he uh he's over. there loving on the goat, talking to it, and I'm like, "Wow, this is weird." I. walk over and I go, "Hey, is it bad that. I feel sorry for the goat?" He said, "Don't let the goat hear you say that.".

He goes, "His name's Gar." He named him. Gar because his middle name is Garfield, named after his grandfather Garfield, who my understanding was also a white. supremacist. So now the goat's name is. Gar. And he says, "Listen, we don't need. any negative vibes. This goat needs to. know it's going to Valhalla. We're going. to sacrifice this goat and it's going to. Odin tonight. This is a good thing and. uh and we don't need any negativity, you. know, we don't need the other guys. hearing thoughts like that." And I said, "Okay, man. I'm just going to take that. baseball and push it down and never let. it back up, you know.

And uh. I go over cuz we're getting ready and. the rules were, hey, no weapons down at. the holy spot. Um so we bench everything. and I go to my truck and I go into my. listening device because if I'm out, there's a cover team out. You might not. be right around the corner, but I'm. covered until I go to bed. But because I. was staying on that property all days, I. had 24-hour coverage. They were running.

shifts, you know, somewhere down the. road, maybe an abandoned place with a. generator in it, whatever. I don't know. But they're all set up and monitoring. And I go to my listening device and I. go, "Hey, I'm pretty sure we're getting. ready to go down here and kill this. goat." And I'm like, I'm racking my. brain trying to think of anything. Should I stop this? Should I not stop. this? But I'm giving you guys the. opportunity. If you can come up with a. reason for me not doing it or you don't. want me doing it, you need to let me. know. And I stared at my device and I. waited and I waited and I waited and I.

didn't hear anything and I went I leaned. into the device and I said, "Well, guess. we're going down here to do a. sacrifice." So, we go down in the woods. Decent little walk. Scary. Scary. The. first time I did it, I first time. walking down there, I'm like, am I. actually getting butterflies right now, man? I'm like, if demons start flying, I. don't know. >> I'm start trying to kill everything. Um, but we walk down and we get to the holy. spot and we all get in a circle.

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where that's where we would go do our. rituals. I mean like tiki torches set up. a little square area. They may even draw. like a whatever. But that's where we. would hold our blotss and he just. started Luke TMBB just started referring. to it as the holy spot or maybe we all. did um because that's where we're going. to do our ritual. Uh and again it's not. true pagan. They're twisting it to their. white supremacy beliefs. >> just like Christian identity was twisted. by neo-Nazis. Uh they call it Christian.

identity. is taking the Bible and. twisting it to white supremacy, which is. not the Bible and not Christian. >> Um, so we get down there, we're all in a. circle around the goat. Somehow ended up. at the back of the goat and Eisen's. doing the spill. He's doing the blot and. he's saying that on this sacrifice, we're going to start the wild hunt. The. wild hunt in Norse mythology is. essentially Odin and a bunch of other. gods going out in the middle of the. night and laying the smackdown to all. their enemies. The white supremacy. version is this sacrifice is going to.

signify the beginning of the wild hunt. and that's us cleansing the world of. darkness i.e. non-whites. anti-fasc. So he does the block and he comes over. to sacrifice the goat and he's got it's. bigger than a machete. It wasn't a. sword. I mean if I went back and looked. at it maybe it is a machete but it was. something it looked bigger than a. machete to me. Um, big blade though and. he's a stocky kid and I'm holding the.

goat and he's and and and he's he's. practicing. He's like. and somebody people are getting. impatient. Somebody's like just do it to. make a couple practice swings. Just do. it, man. He rares back with all his. might. He comes down wham and I'm. holding this go. He hits it right on the. back of the neck and I guess picturing. the head was going to chop off or. something. It goes thunkk and all you. hear is. and I went, "Oh, I don't think it broke. a hair." I don't know if the blade was. dull or if the backstrap of the goat is.

so thick, but in that split second in my. mind, I'm like, "Oh, this is going to. get bloody, man. This is going to be I'm. just picturing something nasty. happening." And then somebody's like, "Do it again. It's going to take two. swings." And then somebody says, "Does. anybody got I think Pestilence says, "Does anybody have a pistol?" Well, remember, nobody's supposed to bring a. weapon down there. Zumnat says, "I got. one." to which me and TMBB, I didn't mention this, TMBB ran a tight. range, too. I was happy with how safe. him and him him and Pestilence were. running firearms training. It made me.

feel safer, you know. Um TMBB and I both. were like, "What?" The one dude who. shouldn't have a weapon, the most. uncoordinated, unsafe, who had been up. for over 48 hours straight. I think he. worked third shift in Austin, Texas, and. drove on Aderall non-stop all the way to. Rome, Georgia. And here we are, night. one. He goes, "I got mine." Luke takes. it from him. He hands it to um Eisen. We're all still in a circle on our. knees. Eisen chambers around, starts to.

point towards the goat, and then turns. away with his finger on the trigger. And. that's when the instructor in me came. out. I was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." He goes, "Well, I go, "Man, look. at what you're shooting at. We're all in. a dagum circle. What are you doing? So. he's Oh. He looks boom. Goat drops. Minutes go by. You hear. stuff like, "Yeah, man. You know, going. to Valhalla, whatever, man. F your. Jewish guy." All this stuff. [snorts].

White power. And uh it's still kicking. Still. kicking. And I go over to Isa. I said, "Why don't you put another round in it?". He goes, "I think it's dead." I said, "Yeah, but I mean, you know, for the. love of the goat and all, we want it. arriving in Valhalla happy, right? Not. twitching." Yeah. Yeah. Go. It goes. over. Boom. And it's And you hear. somebody say, "Oh, it's definitely dead. now." So, I think I'm done. No, we're. not done. Now, they take a knife and cut. the throat of the goat. Gar. They fill. this cup up with all his blood. And.

Eisen has brought acid. So, now. everybody's still in the circle, but I. got a flashlight and I'm shining it for. I'm shining it for Eisen. And he's. tearing the tab off. Not everybody did. uh acid. I didn't, of course. But uh. he's tabbing and then they chase it with. the blood. Tab it. Chase it with the. blood. And we're going around the. circle. And I remember Luke TMBB getting. kind of nervous cuz he's like he's. already taken the tab and chased it with. the blood. And he's like he goes, "Hey, uh I had a couple of beers before this.

I've never done this before. Is it okay. if you have beer? What happens if you. have beer?" He's just going nut. What. happens if you have beer and you haven't. done it? I look at I go, "It's a little. late. You're on it now. Just go for the ride. Yeah. The questions you should have. asked before. Um, so we get around. We're getting towards the end of the. circle and uh, Big Seed starts puking. and I'm like, "Okay." And it gets to me. I think I'm the last one. Uh, I can't. remember if Eisen had done it yet. I'm. either last or Eisen's last, but it gets.

to me and I look down in the cup and. it's already coagulating. It's just. chunky, clotty, big that I'm like, "Oh. god, I don't want to turn that up. I. don't want to do it. [laughter]. Like, I'm gonna I'm gonna puke. I don't. want to do it." And I I think pestilence. gave me an out. But either way, I just. took two fingers and went deep into the. blood, pulled them out, sucked all the. blood off, and uh I think I brought a. Yeah, I I carried a beer down there, luckily. So, I chased it down with a. beer. But uh then [sighs] they start.

commencing to cutting the animal all to. pieces, throw its stomach, sack and. intestines into the creek. Uh. >> what the. >> Carried the head of gar around. There's. there's pictures everywhere like um it. turns out that there was another. infiltrator in the base. Not law. enforcement though. Um they had. infiltrated just before me. But it made. sense once it came out because I'm like. how the hell do they get in these. pictures, man? cuz like literally we. would do a training Halloween and then.

like the next week BBC and the Guardian. uh overseas they got me sitting right. there doing a sigh how holding a machine. gun us holding the head of the goat with. the flag and everybody doing a sigh how. or weapons video. >> you. >> yeah but but we're all wearing. balaclavas and then we black out our. face because they're huge on anonymity. because they don't want to get doxed so. before a photo before a photo shoot. which is really what it It might be. like, "Hey, pale [clears throat] horse. man, you can see your tats." I'm like,

"Shit, the shirt's too short." I went. over, I cut black socks and made like. sweatb bands so I can cover that. If. pestilence hair was sticking out, I'd be. like, "Hey, your ponytail's hanging out, man. How?" Cuz they didn't want to be. doxed. We want to be anonymity. So then, uh, the next day of training is. fooar, screwed because they are all I. mean, maybe like three people didn't do. acid. Everybody's up high all night. I. did have fun messing with them with the. head at guard when they were all high. and stuff because I was bored. But, you.

know, I'm like I'm like, why did you do. this? I'm leaving the phase and you're. like You know, but uh. so the next day shot now Saturday comes. Now we're back. Now we're training. Uh. they pull out the w they line everybody. up, pull the wand out that they used on. me to wand everybody. They're going. through people's tents. And I'm thinking. to myself, man, what if one of these. dudes has something because they're. holding us at gunpoint going through it. I'm fine. I walk right up. I'm like, you. do me first, man. Here. Um, and they.

they patted me down. But on that search, Luke's walking up and down the line with. this with the revolver in his hand, ready to go. Punish Snake standing on a. little hump, maybe like to the corner of. your room here on a hump with the with. the AR. And it's like, if you run, you're going to get shot. You know, it. was a nervous moment for a lot of. people. And I was nervous because I'm. like, what if one of these dudes has. something in their truck or in their. tent and these guys want to kill. somebody? How am I going to deal with. that? Do I sit there and watch somebody.

die? No. But can I effectively. engage at this point? I I don't know. It's things that just run through your. head. >> Mhm. >> So, we finish that. We do a lot more. training, a lot more firearms. And that. night, we go down back to the holy spot, a tiki torch walk. Um, it's all in a. it's all in a video that was released. for propaganda. Um, but we go down that. night and start a bonfire and uh we burn.

American flag and we burn holy bibles. and and there and while they're. screaming, "F your Jewish God, death to. America, f Jesus." And. >> how are you dealing with this as a. Christian? >> Yes. Uh, tough. I. >> mean, all of it. >> Yeah. Tough. Yeah, that was a little. dark. How do you how do you I mean how. do you. >> what is is that going through your head. at all? >> Yeah. Um yeah. And after after this. weekend I did I did text my pastor. I'm. like I know it's hard for grown men to.

reach out for help sometimes. I go but I. can use some prayers cuz I just did some. stuff in the last couple of days and I. just don't feel right, you know. >> Yeah. >> Um but let me tell you what happened. Uh, we're burning. Uh, the Zoomnack kid. almost fell in the fire trying to burn. the American flag. I grabbed the other. side. Hindsight, I probably should have. let him go, you know. [laughter]. >> Not a bad idea. >> Look at that. White sup is on fire.

He's on fire for Jesus. Uh, but. I did that and then I'm watching them. put the Bibles in. Holy Bible's face for. opening up face open the face up and. putting it face down in the fire. [snorts]. So the fire starts building up and. eventually it starts dying down and. punished snake. He's just stoking the. coals. He's just stoking the coals. Well, as he's stoking the coals, you. know how you can see like if you look. [clears throat] at a magazine or. something or a book that's been burnt in. the fire, you see like the little frayed.

edges, you can see the sheets kind of. Well, he's stoking the coals and stoking. the coals and boom, a Bible opens up. face open, not a page burning it. >> No, kid. >> No. And it's like, what? You're like, no. I like I saw you put that thing face. first. Like, I'm pretty sure I saw that. Well, the propaganda video shows it. going down on the fire. Um, I got a. picture. It's in the book. If you blow. it up that was taken cuz they were. taking pictures, I took pictures that.

later on. I was just going through. pictures and I blew it up. when you blow. it up, you can clearly see Holy Bible in. the middle of the fire. And uh he starts. tearing page by page, gets this thing. going. Uh and now the fire's going. again. And we're out there. Hate, hate, hate, spew hate, hate, hate, hate, white. power, all this stuff. Sigh. And uh fire. starts dying down again. And he starts. stoking the coals again. And as he's. stoking them, he flips. And I'll be. damned if the second Bible does I.

probably shouldn't say damned in the. But I'll be damned. He flips the Bible. and it opens up. Not a page burnt to to. the point to where one of the members of. the base goes, "Man, these effing Bibles. just won't burn." Now inside, I didn't. do it outside, but in my head, I was. like, "Well, Sammy, so up to [laughter]. I'm picking up what you're putting. down." Uh, you know, I've heard people. argue, "Well, some Bibles pages are made. out of clay and they won't burn." And. I'm like, "Bro, whatever. I mean, I.

watched a pl the flag burn. I watched. all kinds of stuff burn. It didn't burn. I wish I could have seen what what it. opened to, like what book. >> That's what I was going. >> Yeah. What that'd be nice if I could. blow one up. I never found a picture. where I could like see and blow it up. But yeah, that was pretty amazing. But. so at the end of that night, it's now. Saturday night, everybody's winding. down. Some people are leaving cuz they. got long drives back. But um. I had gained enough trust with. pestilence and TMBB and I circled back.

on something that we had talked about. Of course, I knew what I was trying to. find out because the case team knew as. well. It's something we heard and we. weren't sure what they meant. Circle. back on it when it's not not going to. look suspicious. And I said, "Hey man, remember that night we were talking. about blah blah blah." And however I. worded it, they like [clears throat]. they're like, "Yeah, we'll tell you. Let's put the phone on airplane mode. Well, by this time, nobody's checking. it. I go, "Yeah, it's on airplane mode. I didn't put it on airplane mode." If. they go over and check it later, I'll be.

like, "I'm an idiot. I thought I put it. on airplane mode. If you're not going to. check it, I'm not going to do it.". [sighs]. But they [clears throat] were talking. and they said that they were planning. some things like they have a list. they're forming, but nobody said we're. going to hurt anybody. And I'm like, "Okay." But I do remember. Pestilence looking at TMBB and TMBB kind. of leaning in and whispering to. Pestilence and them saying, "Yeah, I. think we can trust Pale Horse." And then. and now now things are going. So after.

Halloween camp, Punish Snake goes back. to the Maryland Delaware area with can't. go back. So now it's just back to our. normal group, the four of us in the in. the Georgia cell. Um, there was a guy. named Helter Skelter in there who. claimed that he was the perfect. basically white supremacist in hiding. because he was an IT specialist, had a. nineto-ive job and had a girlfriend. According to him, he was off the grid as. far as being on anybody's radar. But for. two years, he'd been wanting to kill. somebody in an attack. Um,

>> for two years, he's been wanting to kill. somebody, >> wanting been preparing for this for two. years. So, we get we get a a DM just. within the Rome, Georgia group, and in. that DM, it's telling us, "Hey, we're. going on a camping trip. Bring blah blah. blah." Everything read exactly like we. were going to be going out putting up. posters, except he said something to the. effect of, "But bring your weapons." And. we're like, "What the hell? Why would I. be bringing my weapons if we're going.

out and putting Why did he say that?". And you know, I would like to find out. the case teams would like to find out. before I walk. in there on a night and then find out. something bad's gonna happen. So, I. called Luke at the nudging of the case. team in Atlanta. I called Luke on wire. and I'm talking. I'm trying to find out. what's going on and he's just giggling. and I'm like, "Listen, man. You know, I've I haven't told you everything I've. done. You don't need to know what I've. done, but what are we planning on doing?

Is this something I'd want to drive a. different vehicle to? like is this. something that I don't want my plates. being seen? You know what I mean? Something that doesn't come back to me. and he'd just giggle. I couldn't get. nothing out of him. So that's Monday. night. So Thursday I call back doing the. same thing. He's still giggling and I'm. like, "Bro, it's about to be DDay crunch. time. Not D-Day the way I've been. mentioning it. Like we're about to be. this date that he's saying we're going. on a camping trip." And somewhere in the. conversation he says, "Oh, I'll tell you. face to face." He goes, "I'll tell you. I'm just not going to talk about it over. a phone." And I go, "Oh, how's.

tomorrow?" because I'm driving through. there. I wasn't, but I am now. I get off. the phone with him. I call the case. team. I said, "You guys ready for. tomorrow? Let's go." So, I drive over. and it's afternoon and, you know, I wake. him up at the crack of two in the. afternoon. And, uh, he comes down and. I'm like, "Hey, uh, I said, "Morning sunshine. Sorry to. wake you from your beauty nap or. whatever." So, we put our phones on. airplane mode and stick them in the. cooler. He's got like a little not a.

Faraday bag, but he's got something like. plastic he puts them in. I don't know if. he thinks that does something or maybe. it did. We walk over to the edge of the. barn and I said, "Listen, you know I'm a jokester and you know I. love to have fun, but when it's trying. time time to do business, I'm serious. So, what are we doing?" And he says, "Essentially, we're going to whack some. people, kill somebody." And I said, "Well, that's way different than putting. up flyers." and it's definitely nothing. I would want to drive my personal.

vehicle to. Man, what in the hell? So, he starts talking and telling me that. him and Pestilence have already. identified several people. Um, but this. was a a couple that they believed to be. active in the Atlanta Antifa antifi. anti-fascist group. Um, and they wanted. to murder him. And when I started. looking at his plan and now I'm trying. to slow him down. Now it's like, okay, like a murder for hire. If a murder for. hire, if somebody comes and hires me, number one, I don't want them leaving.

without me getting the ticket. I I want. to make sure that I'm the guy that you. want because I don't need you leaving. our meeting and going soliciting other. people to murder somebody, you know? I. want to make sure I'm the guy. So now. I've got him and he's explaining things. to me. And man, compared to the. operational security that he put into. writing the rules for your your your. bugout bag or the rules for putting up. flying, I'm like, this is just so haste. and not operationally secure at all. So, I started trying to let him tell me what.

the plan was. And then I pointed out to. him, bro, why? You hadn't even been by. the place? No. And I'm like, and we're. planning on doing this what in 2 days? He's like, yeah. And I go I go, "Why the. haste, man? Look at how thorough you was. on this stuff." And he was like or were. on this stuff. And he's like, "I'm just. tired of waiting." And then I remembered. just like I was on the outlaw's case. I. was a site survey specialist. And I. said, "Let me do my work." I said, "I'm. down here anyway." I said, "This is what.

I do. I pull I mean, I'm pulling. residential. I'm pulling schools. I'm. pulling ethnicity. I'm pulling crime. rates. I'm pulling income. I'm pulling. all kinds of stuff." I said, "This is. what I do when I'm doing a site survey.". I said, "I can do all that and get. everything we need about that house and. it'd be like trying to find a needle in. the haststack." I said, "Because it's. just going to look like I'm doing my. job." And he's like, "Man, I like that. Man, I like that." He even was so uh he. he wouldn't write anything down. He tore.

me off a piece of paper, so no. indentions. And he showed me the phone. It wouldn't even say it. He wanted me to. write it down, the address and the. people's name. So, I did that. I start. doing research. Helter Skelter had to. get a back surgery. So just to just to. shave the disc. So now we're gathering. over at axe and further and stuff. Uh. Luke has gone by the time we finish the. plan. Um originally he just want me. driving, but somewhere in there he's. doing all this research. I'm talking. about like.

uh catch bags. Bought four catch bags to. go on our ARs. If we have to shoot them, the brass won't fall. Nothing for cops, right? Revolvers. Brass doesn't drop. Nothing for the cops. Uh, made a. silencer for I'm pretty sure it was a. 25. It wasn't a 20. I'm pretty sure it. was a 25 semi-auto. Uh, made a silencer. for it. That's going to be the headsh. shotgun. [clears throat]. Um, we canvased the house three different. times. I did it once with Luke. It was. me, Luke, and Pestilence that did it.

And then me, Luke, and Helter Skelter. went back one night and did it. Um, you're hearing things like Helter. Skelter saying, "Hey," somebody asked, "Hey, are there any kids in the house?". Helter says, "I have no problem shooting. a commie kid.". >> You You're riding out there with Helter. and uh it was either Hilter or Luke. says, "Hey, I think Helter wants to pop. his cherry on this one." And I'm. driving. I'm like, "What? Pop your ch?". I'm like, "What are you talking about? I. think that means two different things to. us." He said, "No, he actually wants to. put a bullet in one of his head." And I. said, "Okay." I said, "What's that? 25,

right?" I'm like, "Yeah, this probably. going to take more than one shot. I. think that's doable. So, by the time. everything finished, uh Luke had done. research and the idea was this. We were. going to meet at a camping site. We were. going to leave all of our all of our. electronics, everything there. Phone, watches, whatever. Nothing electronic goes with. you. Stays at the campsite. We're going. to go to a pay by the hour motel. We're. going to get in there. We're all going. to shower. We're going to take a loofah. We're going to scrub. This is all his.

advice. This is all his research. scrub. any dead skin flakes off. We're going to. do like hazmat. We're gonna take our. pants and we're going to blouse them or. put them over our boots and tape them. We're gonna tape our gloves to our uh uh. shirts. Um he even said to Vaseline. facial hair so you don't drop any hair. He had done enough research to where he. had read that a lot of people who murder. somebody for the first time lose control. of their Bibles. So he suggested we all. wear depens in case we lose control of.

our Bibles when we kill these people. >> Holy. >> Now you're going to hear. counterarguments that said, "Oh, Scott. came up with that plan." I was just as. shocked as everybody else was when I'm. hearing this. I'm like, "I ain't coming. up with that shit." So. when he said the defense part though, I. looked at him, I said, "I think I'll be. all right." I didn't say I killed. anybody. I said, "I think I'll be all. right. I don't need any diapers." He. took that as I probably killed somebody. So, he bumped me up on the list from. driving to it was going to be once we.

were ready, we were going to go, we were. going to have a pick lock. If it didn't. work, we're going to kick the door in. There was a bay window um that protruded. from the house a little bit, but it was. a great spot to do overwatch. Um and. Helter was going to post there. Me and. Luke, this is what I was told. We're. going to go down. We're going to shoot. the parents. If there's anything else, we're going to do whatever. But of. course, Helter wants the shot now, too. And then uh and then Pascal was going to.

set the place on fire once we once we. were done. And what I learned is that he. was also creating a list uh and it had. journalist left journalist um TV. anchors. And I'm like, "So, you. legitimately want to keep killing people. and we're going to start taking off. people who are kind of famous?" He said, "Yeah." And I said, 'Well, it's a good. thing we're doing this family first. It'll be a nice, you know, warmup, if. you will. So, while all that's going on, you've got other sales being created.

like in Michigan. Um, and they're going. out and doing stuff now. They're doing. propaganda videos and they're putting up. flyers and they're talking crazy. and we might be on a wire call together. Um if if we wouldn't have taken the case. down of the base when we did that the. week we did it that weekend I was going. to be in Michigan training with those. guys um in Bad Axe Michigan. So. and again the recruitment videos are. getting better and better better and. better. That was another rule. Every.

every new video had to be way better. than the last one. They did one and it's. got Congress it's got scenes from. congressional hearings and they're. talking about the base. They're talking. about Pat being uh absconded illegally. in the United States and we don't know. where he's at kind of thing. Um but Pat. and can't go back and the group up there. everybody was looking 2020 COVID year. even though CO was already here. They. were calling it flu A and B whatever. Uh. but January of 2020 was going to be a.

gun rights rally in Virginia. At that. time the governor was a Democrat and was. pretty strict on gun policy. So, there's. going to be a Second Amendment gun. rights rally. So, a lot of base members. are like, "What if that's the kickoff to. the Bugaloo?" Again, Booaloo being. D-Day. Um, and now we can just clean. house. Uh, what if that's the kickoff to. the Booaloo? And they had been planning. on initiating. So, the things we were. picking up, we the FBI, they did that. Baltimore crew I told you about is.

unbelievable. They did a wire tap. They. tapped into uh the apartment of uh can't. go back and punish Snake. If I thought. they talked crazy around me when we've. been sitting talking crazy stuff, the. stuff they spewed by themselves in that. apartment. Holy cow. I'm talking like. that old '8s movie, The Boys Next Door. Thing, man. It's like just violent. They. were talking about breaking out the. saints. So, in case you don't know, these accelerationists, they refer to.

your white supremacy mass shooters as. saints. I'm not going to say their name. on your show because this is something. we're doing in the tactical world now. It says don't name them. So, the. Charleston shooter, I'm not going to say. his name. He doesn't need any more fame. I'll name every victim. I'm not going to. name the even though it wasn't white. supremacy. I'm not going to name the. Colbine kids' names. I'll name the. victims. I'm not going to name the Tree. of Life shooter. I'm not going to name. the Christ Church shooter, the Norway. shooter, but they have Sean, they.

literally have uh and maybe I can send. it to you if you want and you can post. it when you put this out there. It it is. a it's a leaderboard and it's the Saints. and it's got it's got the Norway shooter. at number one, 77 and0. It's got the. Christ Church shooter at like 55 and0. and it goes down. You got the Charleston. shooter at nine and0 and it says saint. saint saint the saint leaderboard. What. are you gonna do? What are you gonna do.

to make the board kind of thing. So we. get them talking about breaking the. Saints out. As insane as it is, they're. like, "Okay, Charleston shooters in ter. let's pull it up." They're pulling up. the prison system and looking and going, "Okay, but what if we rolled in? How. awesome would it be if the bugaloo hits. and we roll in and break out a saint? How awesome is the base gonna be? And I. told you they're talking about shooting. cops. They're talking about I mean, they're just very, very dark stuff, man. Coal burner. That means a white woman. that's been with a non-white dude. And.

he's like, I'll take that coal burner, put her I can't wait to put her up on. the wall and drive a gun into her mouth. and blow her head off. Crazy like. that. Um, >> holy. >> But their plan was is to go to the rally. because you're going to have most likely. anti-government. You're gonna have some. 3enters, which is not illegal, but. you're gonna have anti-government. militia type stuff. You're gonna have. Antifa. You're gonna have cops. What if. you pop a round off and nobody knows. who's shooting at who? And then all of a. sudden, everybody starts shooting each. other. What's that? What if that's the. kickoff to the bugaloo? Again, not a lot.

of forethought or afterthought. But I. will tell you that in the base. ethnostates wasn't like the entire. state. But my crew, my crew in the uh. the sales of Maryland, Delaware, and. North Georgia, we were looking at. property in the Appalachian Mountains to. buy to create our own compound. The. Detroit and and North Midwest, they were. looking in the upper peninsula of. Michigan. They had already found some. property. Uh they had they had converted. a uh former chief of police who was no.

longer a chief of police because of his. conflict of interest and his belief. system. Um but they had recruited one of. the base members moms who's a nurse and. they're talking about well this will be. I know it may sound crazy but they're. planning it and they're talking well. this nurse she's a nurse she can help. birth the kids and this that and the. other crazy stuff. uh Nazaro had. property in uh Pacific Northwest. So So. we rolling into that and now we're on. this timeline. We're on this clock. that's ticking and.

can can all can the stars align and us. take this thing down right without. people getting hurt? We're hoping so. We're betting on it. And that last week, actually the week we were supposed to. take it down, my back started spasming. so bad I couldn't get out of the floor. And I'm like, if it was an extremity, a. leg, arm, neck, chest, I I could I could. deal with it. I can't sit. So, I can't. even get on a plane. Uh I went and went. to my physical therapist. Uh he gave me. some exercises to do, and I went.

electric stem 24/7 because apparently. the pathway pain signal has to go. through is the same pathway that the. electricity uses. That's why the. electric stem can kind of block that. signal. Um I'll tell you what I found. out. I thought it was a disc above my. fusion. What I found out in January. after we took the case down is my. original lumbar fusion in 2002 had. broke. >> Yeah. >> It broke around, they said probably. around 2005. So I'd had it disconnected.

back. Broke back for 15 approximately 15. years. So we had to postpone it a week. [clears throat]. So I jump I jump on a plane. I go to. Baltimore. I meet the Baltimore team. Go. over some stuff. drive to Delaware the. next morning. I'm sighting in helping. sight in uh the 6.5 Creedmore um poorly. by the way uh [laughter] and sight in uh. a ghost AR that they had built for uh. for Punish Snake who's an undocumented.

alien um inside the United States. Actually, they messed up when they made. it. It was doing a double fire. They. went to the range and was going and they. were like went back and fixed it so it. wouldn't draw attention. Um, so I'm. there with them all day and I'm trying. to get the final stuff that the case. team needs and uh and I end up with them. that night. We had a few drinks, got. something to eat and it's just it was. for me divine intervention is what I. call it, but it it ebbed and flowed. perfect. Like I knew that the case team.

needed a certain question answered and. the conversation would just present. itself and I go, "Oh yeah, speaking of. that, blah blah blah blah blah. Oh yeah, boom boom boom. Got that one. Got the. next one. Got the next one." At one. point, I'm pretty sure I found the hole. where the camera was cuz I knew the. camera shot, you know, cuz I'd seen some. of the video that they had gotten from. the title three wiretap, but I'm sitting. at the table and it's I'm pretty sure. it's me here. Can't go back there. Punish snake here. But I'm staring at. the wall and I think I finally find it. And when I got everything that they.

needed, I've been in the floor. stretching, you know, my back, all this. stuff. When I got everything, I kind of. I looked right at what I thought I'm. pretty sure it was. I looked at it and I. winked. I take a drink and I winked. because I know they were watching from. the other side like we got everything. So I go from there. Um I drive back to. Baltimore. Get up the next day. Flight. super delayed. Fly to Atlanta. Get to. Atlanta. Rental car is gone. They take. me to one off. They they carry me to.

Uber. I take an Uber to an enterprise. facility that's open. That's where they. told me to go. I go Uber drives off. I'm. in the parking lot. the lights go off. I'm like, son of a. So, I had to go. back, find a car, drove up to Atlanta, and that's when Helter Skelter went with. us that night and told us, you know, he. wanted to pop his cherry. No problem. killing commie kids. Uh, he had built. the silencer. He had ordered the U catch. bags and. did that. I think I went home, but the.

next day I was back because I'm meeting. with the local SWAT teams on the. takedown stuff. So the way it worked is. that Wednesday we started the arrest. I. went on a ruse because it's a 100 acre. land and it's not really an easy way to. sneak up there. We just did a ruse where. I took I took u Luke to lunch. Um we. figured that was the most. disadvantageous place to hit out of all. the places we were hitting. So, I said I. was going to pick him up for lunch and. I'd already laid out this thing where we.

don't need to be riding around with guns. on us because if we get stopped and. that's fresh in their minds when we. getting ready to do this thing, they're. like, "That's a great idea." So, made. sure we had no weapons. And as we're. driving out, um, I went to a. predetermined spot that the SWAT team. had picked and I faked that the truck. messed up and I was like, "Man, if that. damn caliber froze again," cuz I really. did have one. I said, "Hang on." I pull. over. I pull up kind of next to a fence. where you can't really open the door. I. get out. I walk around back like I'm. looking. The truck pulls up. It's.

actually an FBI agent, but it's a ruse. And he says, "Hey, man. You need any. help?" And I look up and I go, "Holy. I didn't know you lived. Where do. you live here?" Act like I knew him. Man, where have you been? I ain't seen. you in forever. Holy man. What's. going on? He goes, "Man, that is ain't". I'm walking over. That is a nice truck. While I'm doing that, Luke's looking at. us, but the Bearecat uh vehicle is. coming over the hill with the SWAT team. So, it was arrest without any incident. And I jumped in the back of the truck. said, "Go go." They're on him, on top of. him. He put his hands up. No tear gas in.

the truck. None of that stuff. Take him. off and then they go and arrest. pestilence at his house and they pick. Helter Skelter up leaving work. We keep. it very quiet because Thursday morning, early morning. The Washington office SWAT team hit. Eizen's place. The Baltimore SWAT team. hit Can't go back and uh and uh punish. Snake. And then from there now starting. to unravel. So Friday I'm in the main. group and I'm hearing I'm watching the. chatter. What is this man? You see we've.

got members arrested blah blah blah. Now. the affidavit's coming out through the. day and it's like man it says there's a. fed in here. It says that a an FBI. undercover has infiltrated this group. and they're like, "Who's a fed?" You see. it going and going and going and about. 5:00 on Friday uh Roman comes on and. says something to the effect of, "I. don't think we could have done anything. to. uh figure him out or out him cuz he's. one of our best members." And as soon as.

he starts saying that and typing, I'm. like, "Oh, he knows it's me now. He's. going back and he's like, "Okay, who. came in in July or whatever, you know, and he's looking probably listening to. the recordings and uh and then it says, as soon as he typed that, I go, "Ah, he's he knows it's me now." And uh and. it says, "You've been removed by Roman. Wolf or Roman Wolf has removed you." I. screenshotted it. I sent it to all the. case teams and said, "And I'm out." But. like I told you, there was another. infiltrator. uh the coverage after um we.

saw that that there was still chatter in. the room and it was like man you mean. pale horse is the fed and then one guy. was like there's no way that's one of. the most solid neo-Nazis I've met and. then another one was like is that the. dude with the deep voice on the call and. they're like yeah he goes man there was. something really endearing about him so. I'm like they really do like me you know. but yeah we arrested those we picked up. some more on the animal cruelty stuff we. picked up some more on tag in the. synagogue Um, and uh, didn't get Nazaro. I'm sure he's still on a no fly. I mean,

he's got to be. Um, but. that was that case, man. >> Yeah, that was that case. Like I said, after that Halloween weekend, >> that's dark. >> I would Yeah. I would come back to. people and I'd go I'd go, man, I've been. working undercover off and on since. 1996. I said, 'I have never been with a. group of people where I had to burn holy. Bibles, burn an American flag, and I. damn sure wasn't with a group of people. that went and stole a goat, sacrificed. it at a ritual, and drank his blood. And. I said, I've done all that in like 3.

days with these people. Um, we got to. find something. But yeah, it's uh it was. it was good. And eventually after the. aftermath they the UK arrested a. 13-year-old kid for they have a domestic. terrorism statute and it was a member of. the base and uh yeah it was like the. youngest arrest 13 years old I think the. youngest arrest they've ever done over. there. >> Oh my gosh.

Yep. So. it's now February 2020. I'm in Arizona. and I'm putting on training for online. covert employees that are going to be. working domestic terrorism type stuff. They can't do face to face meets, but. they can go in type of way. Um, and they all I'd always heard that. when it's time for you to retire, you'll. know. I never really knew what that. meant. I mean, obviously I can picture. what it means, but I never How would. that feel? because our cuto off age at.

the FBI is 57 and I saw myself working. to 57 and then trying to extend maybe a. year or two on a specialty like if I'm. the undercover coordinator for the state. of Tennessee. Maybe there's an argument. to be made I'll keep him another year. till we train somebody up. That was my. plan. But I'm sitting there. and. it was my birthday, February 13th, and. we were out and uh my cohorts that that. were helping put on the training as.

well, we all went out and I remember. sitting there in the restaurant and I. don't know what the conversation was or. what I was thinking, but it was like a. brick in the face, man. Bam, hit me. And. just this thought came across my mind. that I'm satisfied with my career. And. that doesn't I'm not saying I've done it. all and I'm the be all. none of that. I'm just saying I'm satisfied and I. never said that. And then the co they. wouldn't let you go to work. I'm like. what do you mean I can't go to work? So. I was forced to sit at home which is. something I would never do. So it gave.

me an idea and a picture of what. retirement might look like sitting at. the house. making exactly what I'm making now. because you got a thrift savings plan. and you got a pension. Um and and I. punched out at 50. I retired. I retired. June 30th of 2021. >> Damn, dude. That's a hell of a career. >> Yeah. And I may bond back in. We'll see. Not FBI. I won't go fed. But I may I may. I may bond back in even if it's just to. help with training or something. I got a. I got a buddy that's he's uh he's going.

to be the next sheriff. Yeah. >> So, we'll see. But um and I've done some. stuff. I've I've uh I've been on movie. sets. I've actually been the armorer on. a set. Um I was on set security. I. actually helped with the weapons making. them for the movie. And uh I did a. cameo. I got my first kill. I got I've. got one shotgun pistol grip shotgun kill.

to the back [laughter]. >> from some from somebody looting my gun. store and he dies right next to my. motorcycle. [laughter]. >> Wow. And it hit number it actually hit. number two on uh dramas on Amazon or. Prime. Yeah, Amazon Prime. Yeah. Pretty. good. Pretty funny to see the weapons. and you're like, "Hey, but that that was. before Rust." And I mean, >> how how uh. how prominent is this? The base, the 764 stuff is getting.

bigger. Is it shrinking? >> You know, I think you're always going to. see people moving around. Some of these. groups aren't big. Am I going to tell. you like I've read an art? I think it. was my article like there's a million. neo-Nazi there's a million white. supremacists and they're all going to be. on your doorstep tomorrow. No, I'm not. saying that. Am I saying that it's the. most dangerous threat in domestic. terrorism? I mean, I'll say it's up. there, but I didn't never work Antifa or. or an anti-government separatist group, you know, that that I don't know. I.

don't know if it's the biggest threat, but from when I was working it, yeah, I. thought I thought it was. But as far as. size and growth, I'm not going to say it's huge huge, but. sometimes you'll see the names and it. might be I mean, let's say it's me, Pale. Horse, and all of a sudden I pop up in a. new white supremacist Telegram group or. something and somebody might be like, "Hey, were you perhaps uh Pale Horse in. the other group?" "Yeah, that's me." So.

you see that kind of that kind of uh. lingering staying around. But again, I've done groups that I've been in. undercover and they're a white supremacy. neo-Nazi group. Not accelerationist, but. neo-Nazi National Socialist. And five. months I've read every single post. Thousands, thousands, thousands of. posts. Didn't want to miss a single one. because I wanted to make sure. But at. the end of that five months, I go to the. case team and I'm like, dude, it's just. first amendment protected speech. They.

they are spewing some hate and some. horrific stuff, but it's protected under. the First Amendment. And then you move. on. So my my thing is I say this, and. this goes for like all extremism, especially when you get into like the. lone wolf type stuff, um, which is what. things like the siege tell you to do. Don't go out on the street corner with a. picket sign yelling. Number one, you're. identifying who you are, making yourself. a target. Number two, you're doing. nothing. Go do that hidden attack kind.

of thing like Pat who said he was a. ghost. He said, "I can literally take we. could create a ghost house to house our. brothers who have been doxed and we can. become a ghost hit team. Lay out there. with a revolver like a homeless person. You learn the pattern. Next day they're. walking through, walk off, go do stuff. like that." They were coming up with all. kinds of crazy stuff like that. But what. I will say is this. Just don't underestimate. If I showed. you a picture of the kids from Colin.

Bine, the shooters before that happened, what would you say? If I showed you a. picture of the Aurora Theater shooter. before that happened, what would you. say? >> How about the Charleston kid with the. bowl haircut who could barely fill I. mean, he couldn't even fill up a a gold. gym tank top holding a rebel flag and a. 45 in his hand. What would you say? But. yet they all killed people. >> After all your time at the the bureau. and everything you've done, I mean, what. advice do you have for families? >> Uh,

I I'm I I I don't like walking around on. eggshells living in fear, but don't put. blinders on either. You know, I'm not. saying be a helicopter parent, per se, but like I said earlier, if your kids. own a headset on Roblox and Minecraft, you need to know who they're talking to. There there's some great stuff out. there. There's a company called Bark. I. actually installed it on my girls'. phones when they were younger, but man, I don't know how many people they got.

working for them, but it will flag every. and they even have their own phones now. So, you got a bark phone. You give that. to your kid and it's got a lot more um. uh avenues for you to thwart bad people. with nefarious plans coming in. But I. remember putting it on my girls' phones. and I mean it would you can make it as. sensitive as you want. If it's suicide. talk, sex talk, weapon talk, dope talk, anything, it'll flag it, screenshot it, send it right to you. >> Yeah. I'm actually working on a. application with my friend Ryan.

Montgomery. We uncovered all this stuff. with uh 764, a lot of pedophilia stuff. We're coming. out with an app. We're working on it. right now. >> Good. >> Cuz that's where they're going to go. Like even like in the Napster days, right? You go on Napster or these. peer-to-peer networks and I would go. down to the IAC Innocent, you know, images group that was a task force. that's working the crimes against. children. Um, and you it it would be like drinking. from a fire hydrant if you went on there. and you saw how many people were sending.

photos to each other and then how some. of them are known victims that we've. identified and stuff like that. And now. with AI and these I mean they're making. like I saw one the other day. It's like. I don't know. It's like a robot woman. but it look as soon as I looked at it I. went oh gosh cuz I think like a bad. person. I can. >> I can think about the sick minds and. what they were going to I'm like I know. who's going to be getting those dogs for. sure, >> man. >> And if they're doing that, how long. before they try it on a real person?

And I will just tell you my experience. with pedophiles. Um if they're truthful, they'll tell you I can't be fixed. For. me as a Christ follower, short of a. miracle from God, but I've had them be. truthful and say, "If you let me out, I'm going to do it again." you know, >> Yeah. Craziness. But I'm still a glasses half. full guy. I still try to be an optimist. Have I been depressed? Yeah. Can I get.

down on myself every now and then? Yeah. But I wake up the next day and I try to. just cuz you could. There's so much bad. stuff out there. You could just ruin. your whole life. Make you want to crawl. into a room and never come out. Do. There's still good out there. >> Yeah. >> Keep fighting the good fight. Proverbs, right? Keep fighting the good fight. Think so. Well, >> Scott, it was an honor to interview you, man. >> Thank you, man. >> It really was. >> I maybe maybe I'll circle back when uh.

there may be some announcements. We'll. see. I I got some stuff in the works. We'll see. I hope. >> Well, I'm looking forward to hearing. from you. >> Yeah. >> God bless, man. >> You too, man. Thank you very much, man. >> Thank you. >> Appreciate it. [music]. No matter where you're watching the. Shaun Ryan Show from, if you get. anything out of this at all, anything,

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