Ryan Holiday - Watch This If You Have a Negative Mind | SRS #321

[music]. Ryan Holidayiday, welcome to the show, man. >> Yeah, thanks for having me. >> It's an honor to have you. >> Likewise. >> So, uh, yeah, this year, one of my goals. is to become a little more stoic is, uh, the political and world current events. just continue to spiral out of control. Um, that's been one of my goals primarily. for my family. You know, it's just uh. >> You seem stoic though. Low lowercase.

stoic. You seem you seem [laughter]. >> Are you not? >> I tend to lose my [ __ ] every once in a. while. But um as we all do, >> but uh but yeah, I just I want to be a. little more stoic primarily for my my. family, my kids. >> Yeah, I'm the same way. I mean, I think. there's some people who are sort of. naturally there and then then you have. kids and then you realize you're not. there at all. [laughter]. >> Yeah. Yeah. But um and actually several.

my wife's been wanting me to do this for. a while and I'll bet five six years ago. uh she gave me one of your books and. that's when I first heard about you and. read it. Uh it was like a daily. stoic. >> and um read through that and then this. year got. >> uh Marcus Aurelius's book on stoicism. and and so this is perfect now you're. here. >> All right. Oh, >> well, I brought I brought you a good. edition of of Mark's real. I don't know. which one you have. This is my favorite. translation. So, I think what's cool.

about this is like, am I out of the way? Here you have the the private thoughts. of the most powerful person in the. world. And and um almost certainly not. intended for publication. Like he might. be mortified that we're holding this. right now. So, you know, most books are. written for the audience, right? But. this is a book for the author like like. that. It's a book is the byproduct of. the philosophical process which is like. he's has a temper. He has anxiety. He.

has a shitty job with uh people he can't. trust and an empire that's coming apart. And he has health problems. He has. marital problems. He has a plague. There's floods. It's uh a series of. endless wars. Um, and what he's doing is. sitting down and writing to himself, trying to get back to center, right? >> Interesting.

>> And and it just wasn't burned upon his. death or or it wasn't destroyed when he. died. And so it's it doesn't it doesn't. read like a typical book. I mean, it's. it's a it's 12 books. Each passage is. numbered, but it's really like di almost. like journal or diary entries because. that's what stoicism is is like this. You know how you're trying to be and. then you're here. >> There's a great line in meditations. where he's saying like fight to be the. person that philosophy tried to make. you. And that's what he's doing in.

>> Can you say that again? >> He says fight to be the person that. philosophy tried to make you or fight to. be the person that philosophy wants you. to be. Right? It's like we all know the. idea, the ideal, like what our best self. is, and then we're dysregulated or we're. tired or we're hungry or somebody's. being really awful and annoying uh and. and we're we're struggling to be to get. from the lower self to the higher self. >> Gotcha. >> Right. And that's what that's what this.

is. So, I got this u and then this this. one will hopefully like meditations. should be Thank you. >> It should be a book that you. Like most books you read, right? This. should meditation should be a book that. you are reading. Like it should sit on. the nightstand and you pick it up and. you read it throughout your life because. it was written throughout someone's. life. But the idea is that. >> you don't know what passage you're going. to need until you're flipping through. the book and it jumps out at you.

>> That's that's the idea of meditations. >> Roger that. Thank you. >> All right. I got I got a bunch more. I'll burn. I won't take so much time, but I know you got I know you got young. kids. Do you know Steve Vanella? >> Yeah. >> He's a meat eater. This is I think this. is he wrote an amazing book about. hunting called the uh American Buffalo, which is like one of my favorite books. where he gets a buffalo tag in Alaska. and he goes to hunt uh uh the American. bison and it's all about that. That. that's my favorite Steveella book. But. as a parent, this is inside kid outside. kids in an inside world. I think that's.

what every parent is struggling with. right now because screens are so. addictive. Yeah. >> And uh video games are so exciting and. we're all glued to our devices, right? I. mean, people are probably listening to. this almost certainly listening to this. on a device right now. Um so, but the. but the point is you want to raise. outdoor kids, right? Kids, he says, um. you want to raise kids that don't say ew. a lot cuz they're good being outside. getting dirty, doing nonsense. That.

>> I love that book. I think it's amazing. Do. >> you you spend a lot of time outdoors. with your kids? Yeah, we live on a ranch. in Texas. So, so we're we're we're. pretty outdoorsy, but you know, it's a. constant fight. It's like it's like um. they love it when they're out there, >> but they hate the process of getting out. there. >> really. Do you know what I like like. it's like when we we were yesterday we. went on a hike. They did not want to get. out of the car. They did not want to go. on it. And then as soon as they we were. in it, they loved it, right? And that's. like I think the struggle uh is the is.

the is the starting You know what I. mean? >> Yep. >> Um, all right. So, we got that. Uh, oh, this is another interesting parenting. one. This is about Churchill and his. son. So, Churchill has a horrible father. and horrible mother basically neglect. him. Becomes a great man and he tries to. do better with his son, but he doesn't. do a great job. And I think um I think. that's another thing that keeps us up at. night as parents is like if you're. successful, how do you not raise spoiled.

entitled kid? You don't. They have. comforts and. security and love that maybe we didn't. get, but how do you make sure that that. works to their advantage, not that. they're to their disadvantage, right? And so I thought it's it's a it's a. really interesting sort of because it. looks at three generations, right? It. looks like Churchill and his father and. then obviously Churchill and then. Churchill and his son. Um, it's great. book. Uh, I thought you might like that. one. Have you read any Stockdale? >> No, I haven't. All right. So, this is.

thoughts of a philosophical fighter. pilot. So, Stockdale uh goes to thea the. naval academy in 43 uh graduates uh. becomes a pilot. Um and it's not until. he's spends 20 years as a as a pilot. It's not until the Navy sends him to. Stanford where he gets a graduate degree. that he's introduced to Stoic. philosophy. On his last day at Stanford, his philosophy professor goes, "Hey, I. think you might like this book." He. gives him a copy of Epictitus, the Stoke.

philosopher, and he does two more. deployments there before he gets shot. down. And that's his sort of he he's. every every night in his bunk on the on. the uh on the Tyonder Rogan, then the. constellation, and a little bit on the. on the on the Ariskany, he's reading. Stoic philosophy. So when he gets shot. down in ' 65, he says he's famously says. to himself, I am leaving the world of. technology and entering the world of. Epictitus. And it's in the Hanoi Hilton.

that he basically takes Stoic philosophy. as a which was a sort of um you know. theoretical thing and he applies it in. this what he calls the the laboratory of. human behavior. >> Holy [ __ ]. >> Did you get to meet him? I see I never. got to meet him. He died. Yeah, I think. he died in 2008 or six. What does it. say? >> He died in 2006 at the age of 81. >> Yeah. No, I I met his children and met a. lot of people that have met him, but. just I mean, one of the greatest.

Americans ever, >> man. >> Um, incredible book. You'll love that. I. was just I'm I'm doing I'm actually. doing a book on Stockdale right now. And. this is um Do you ever read The Right. Stuff? The Tom Wolf book? >> No. >> Oh, you would like that, too. So, that's. about test pilots who become the first. astronauts. So, it's about John Glenn. and Chuck Joerger. really good. But this. is um this is about there's a little. stock in there, too. This is like uh. about u carrier pilots in Vietnam. Uh.

I not enough people know about this. book. It's incredible. Um it's called. Over the Beach. It was Stockdale's. favorite book about um about the air war. in Vietnam. Um and then the guys that. get shot down. Um so I just read that. I. think you would like that. If you don't. read a lot, I think you would like that. book. >> Perfect. Um, and then the last one, uh, you ever read any Hunter S. Thompson? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, Hunter S. Thompson we think of. as the badass wild man crazy guy. You. think Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas is. a book about drugs and alcohol, which it. is, but it's the subtitle of that book.

is is about the American dream cuz he's. also one of our most astute sort of. cultural and political writers. And so, this is Freak Kingdom. Um, and it's. about uh Hunter S. Thompson as a. political thinker and critic because he. covers Nixon, he covers Carter, he. covers like every presidential candidate. between, you know, sort of the the. late60s and and then his death. And uh I.

don't know, I got the sense I think it. would line up with where cuz you're kind. of like a man without a party. You're. you're politically engaged. You have you. but you're not like Democrat, Republican. >> Um I think you I think you'd like that. book. It's he what he's primarily is. anti-fascist. Not like Antifa, but. anti-fascist. Like doesn't like fascism. Doesn't like people telling him what to. do. Doesn't like liars. Doesn't like. hypocrites. Uh doesn't like corruption. And uh [laughter]. >> I could have met this guy. >> I think I think you're going to like it,

>> man. Thank you. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Thank you. This will keep me busy. >> Yeah, I think so. >> I appreciate it. >> I I could have brought more. So, I my. wife and I have a bookstore in outside. Austin. And so, uh, my my favorite thing. is when I'm going to meet someone or. someone comes in, like what what books. would I think they like? That's my. that's my that's what gets me excited. So, those are the ones I thought you'd. like. >> Thank you. I really appreciate that. I'm. actually. >> I want to talk about this one later. a fatherhood segment and uh this is.

something I talk about all the time uh. >> with a lot of lot of different people. how they how they do it but uh. >> well my gift is not as exciting but. >> this is the gummies. >> the vigilance league gummy bears. [laughter] legal in all 50 states made. in the USA. >> all right. >> horrible for you but they taste. [clears throat] amazing so [laughter]. but uh. >> so let me let me give you an. introduction here real. >> [clears throat]. >> Ryan Holidayiday, author of 12 books on. stoicism with more than 10 million.

copies sold, including The Obstacle is. the Way, Ego is the Enemy, and Stillness. is the key. You're the founder of Daily. Stoic, reaching millions through books, podcasts, newsletters, and YouTube. Your. work is read in NFL locker rooms, special operations units, I can attest. to that, and Silicon Valley boardrooms. In 2025, you completed your four book. Stoic Virtue series and launched a. soldout world tour across Australia,

Ireland, and beyond. >> Welcome to the show. >> Yeah, thanks. >> And uh so we have a Patreon account. >> Yeah. >> And uh it's turned into quite the. community and to be honest, are the. reason I get to sit down here with you. today. >> All right. [clears throat]. >> Um so they get the opportunity to ask. every single guest a question. This is. from Corey Smith. Ryan, for people. battling anxiety, depression, or the. long recovery from a brain injury, when. the brain can feel like the obstacle,

how can stoic principles be applied most. effectively? I mean, I can speak more to the first. two than the than the brain injury. That's not something I have direct. experience with. But I think. basically what stoicism is at its core. is this kind of distance between you and. your thoughts. Right? This this is. similar to eastern philosophy, but it's. the idea that you have the opinion, you. have the feeling, you have the dread or. the anxiety or the worry or the.

frustration or the anger and. you're trying to take a second and ask. yourself, is this true? Right? like um. you're worried about this thing. happening and what you're not stopping. and thinking is like hey is my worrying. about this affecting the outcome in any. way or am I just torturing myself right. um you're not asking yourself hey let's. say it does happen what then right. because often times what we're torturing.

oursel with is this kind of vague idea. that like oh if this happens that will. be bad and I won't be able to handle it. But the truth is we handle stuff all the. time. We've handled everything in our. lives up until this point or we wouldn't. be here. We survived everything in our. lives up until this point or we wouldn't. be here. And so stoicism is the is it's. funny he said he or she said about you. know your brain is the obstacle. Sometimes the brain is the obstacle. injury or not. Like we have biases we.

have patterns. We have things that we. make up and they're not true. Right. It's it's based on. things that we haven't really worked. through. And stoicism is the idea of. kind of working through that. And that's. again what Mark Shuis is doing in the. meditation. It's not like this magical. formula that as soon as you hear it, you. don't have that problem anymore. It's. the hey, I'm going to pause and think. about this and work through it and. decide whether I'm going to.

uh ascent to it or not. Epictitus who's one of the stoke. philosophers he would talk about how. like he says a good money changer like a. person you would get money from in the. ancient world you know he he said they. they know how to tell a counterfeit coin. from a real coin by the by banging it on. the table like they don't have to melt. it down to test the metal they just know. right you have that intuition you just. know and I think what stoicism is. whether you're doing it in journaling. whether you're taking a a few minutes.

whether you take a long walk or you're. just talking through it with someone you. know. Stoicism is about asking yourself, hey, is this real or not? Is this true. or not? Is this productive or not? Is. this helpful or not? Again, this is all. very easy to say. >> Um, but that that's what it is as a. process is is to deal with precisely. those feelings which every person ever. who ever lived has struggled with in. some way or another. Most guys will spend money on gear,

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and use code SRS for 20% off. Sheath, the underwear of legends. Thanks to. Sheath for sponsoring the episode. You know, I when I research when I and I. haven't gone that too far into my. research in socialism, but you know, when I first left uh contracting for the. agency, I was at social anxiety. A lot. of people thought I was stoic. I just. didn't like, you know, I just didn't.

like being in public talking to new. people. >> And so, I bottled everything up. Mhm. >> And you know, when I read some of these. books [clears throat] and uh and start. digging in, it kind of feels like I. would go back into bottling it back up. So, what I just want to ask, you know, what's it how where's the release valve. in stoicism? >> Yeah, it it's not bottling it up. I. think I think obviously the word stoic. in English like so stoicism comes uh.

about the 4th century BC. is this guy. named Zeno founds this school of. philosophy. Um he's inspired by the. cynics, another word that we don't do. great justice to in the English. language. We think cynics or cynicism. means sort of negative or skeptical or. um you know uh it doesn't believe in. anything. Um not what it is at all. And. stoicism. um is called stoicism.

because Zeno sets up his school on the. stoapille, the painted porch in Athens. Stoa just means porch. These were guys. hanging out on this porch talking about. these ideas. Now flash forward 2500. years later when we go, "Oh, that guy is. really stoic." We we take that to mean. like he doesn't feel anything. He's a. robot. he stuffs it down. And that's not. what it is at all. Um to me, it's about. processing that emotion, asking.

yourself, hey, is this productive or not. productive? Like, is is losing my [ __ ]. about this? Is that um helping anything? Uh or is it in fact hurting myself, other people, making the situation. worse? So, it's not like, hey, I'm. feeling an emotion. Emotions are not. okay. Let me let me white knuckle it. To. me, it's about asking yourself, working through it, hey, why am I. feeling this way? What is this doing for.

me? And then I think your question about. like where's the release valve is a good. one? Because to me, I I find that. release valve in the work and usually in. some kind of physical activity. Like I I. I think you got to have outlets for it. Um but the idea of just getting to a. place where you're pretending it's not. happening like grief you know if you. just go oh uh I don't feel that that's. not real we have multiple stories about.

Marcus Relius crying right the most. famous stoic in the world that we don't. have that much like the historical. record is relatively thin on this person. like we don't have that many stories. about him right and I think there's four. about him crying one is over the loss of. a tutor. uh like one of his favorite teachers. dies. Another is when he to when he's. told he's going to become emperor, he's. just like so overwhelmed at the at the. weight of the job, he doesn't think he.

can do it. Uh and then two others are. about. the uh the victims of the plague. Marcelius is the emperor of Rome during. what's called the Antonine plague, which. is this devastating pandemic that kills. millions and millions of people. And. then another is when he's told uh that. an earthquake has flattened this Roman. city. And so like in both in all these. cases, he's not stuffing his emotions. out. In fact, in the the first story. about the beloved the beloved teacher,

um you know, he's trying to not feel the. emotion. He's like a young kid and you. know, he probably some of the ideas of. masculinity that we all know, you know, like boys don't cry, don't be a little. [ __ ] right? like he's he's not he's. he's he's clearly upset by that the fact. that that this person he loves has died. and um one of his philosophy teachers. goes to him and and tries to tell him. like like you know let's keep it under. wraps kid and his stepfather who's the.

emperor of Rome Antonyinus Pis he he he. sees this and he goes no no no no he. says let the boy be human and so I. stoicism to me is not you never have the. emotion or that you stuff it down. I. think it's more like, okay, look, if. you're still paralyzed by this grief a. year later, you can't get out of bed, you know, that's a problem, right? To. me, it's the it's the the the. processing, the passing of the emotion, and then it's getting back to center as.

quickly as possible. That that to me is. what the philosophy is. >> Okay. Yeah. I think this book here, meditations, is going to be very interesting. I think. you'll like it. >> cuz I I just it it. does seem it does feel like kind of. stuffing your emotions. What you're. saying makes me thinking before acting. But really, you know what really got me into it is. I've started bitching all the time. >> About what?

>> [ __ ] Just bitching about. >> I I'll just be honest. I haven't been. happy with the last two administrations. at all. And um I feel like I really got. duped on this one. And um. you know, and so I want to be more. solutions-based and focus on actual. solutions than just do what everybody. else does and Yeah. >> Let's [ __ ] about all the problems. Let's [ __ ] about the Epstein files. Let's [ __ ] about the wars. Let's There. has to be Let's [ __ ] about the stuff. that we've been bitching about for, you.

know, ever. >> Yeah. and uh at least as long as I've. been around and and it there's just very. few people that take the time. to take the things that make them angry. and and and come up with real focused. potential solutions. >> Well, and it's important one of the. things you hear the Stoics talk about is. like getting some perspective, right? Like none of this is new. So Senica is. one of the famous Stoics. Do you know. who his boss was? It. >> was Nero. like his boss is the worst.

leader maybe of all time, right? And I. got to imagine this is stressful. I. imagine it's demoralizing. I imagine. there's a lot to [ __ ] about. Like in a. way, none of this is new, right? Corruption is not new. Hypocrisy is not. new. Declining empire is not new. Um the. only thing that's new about any of this. is that we have a lot more information. in real time about what's happening, right? like um it was possible to get.

away from it in the past in ways that we. can't. Now, it was also worse in the. past in other ways, right? Like um you. know, no one's being forced to to to to. fight for their life in the coliseum, let's say, right? Um there's there's. definitely some things that are better, but like I think about even Socrates, right? Socrates, you you think, "Oh, that was that guy. He wore the toga. He. walked around Athens. He asked those. questions, you know, must have been. pretty chill. And it's like.

Socrates lives through the Pelpeneisian. war. Like Athens fights uh like a. generationally long war against Sparta. and loses. Like his country like loses. a world war effectively and [snorts]. then Athens is ruled by 30 tyrants. That. literally it's known as the time of the. 30 tyrants. I mean like the world must. have felt like it was falling apart and. it was falling apart. And so I think one. of the things you you can take from the.

study of history and I think. I think we all need to study history. more right like people think like. people watch too much news and don't. read enough history. >> Mhm. >> And the reason for this is like they. think that being that their job is to be. an informed citizen and it is your job. is to be an informed citizen in America. in any democracy. The problem is. watching news in real time is not. necessarily the best way to be informed. And so I urge people to read more. history be not because it takes anything.

away from the moral calamities that are. happening in this moment, but it allows. you to understand them in context. It. allows you to understand which ones are. really important and which ones are kind. of par for the course, right? And and it. allows you to also remember that like no. one has lived in a perfect society and. that most of the people that you admired. were looking around at the world and. going, "What the [ __ ] are we doing? This. is insane." you know, like um and and.

and that actually the job is to not. despair, not to get into like bitterness. and anger, not to um not to uh like one. of the things Mark Shu talks about in. meditations, he has he talks about. revenge a lot. You can imagine the most. powerful man in the world, if he wants. to get revenge on someone, he can he can. do some pretty heinous things to people. But he he says, you know, he tries to. remind himself the best revenge is to. not be like your enemy. And one of the. things I I look out at the world and I.

go, I don't like the corruption. I don't. like the cruelty. I don't like the. dishonesty. I don't like the pettiness. I don't like the crassness. I don't like. any of this. Now, obviously, as a. citizen, my job is to vote against those. things, to speak out against those. things. But my main job as a person. philosophically is to not be those. things, right? Like I if if what you. allow. is the shittiness of what's happening. around you to make you feel shitty and.

worse to be shitty. >> like they are winning and and so I think. that's to me that's where stoicism uh. really has a lot to offer because we are. living in disorienting disappointing. disillusioning times but if you allow. that to strip from. your happiness at home, your. productivity at work, your you know, your decency, your kindness, your.

connection to other people, like it is. winning. >> Mhm. >> And that that's that's kind of how I. think about it. >> I mean, how do you I'm I'm curious, too, cuz I mean, it's it's you know, I. brought up I brought up politics, >> but it there's there's just so many. other and I think that's something that. everybody can relate to one way or. another, right? >> Yeah. But [clears throat] I mean, we're. going to talk about this, you know, >> towards the end of the interview and I. guess we'll talk about a little bit. right now, but you know, as as you find.

success, >> uh, you also find very disingenuous. people that start to come around and. they want to take advantage of you. They. want to take advantage of your kids to. get to you. They want to take advantage. of your wife to get to you. They are not. honest people, you know, and and you. [clears throat] threw out the word. revenge, you know, and that's. >> in my mind, I mean, revenge used to be. something that I mean,

>> I would waste an entire day planning all. the things that I could do to somebody. that took advantage of me or wronged me. or or [ __ ] over my family or myself or. whatever, right? Whatever the. circumstances are. And then I, you know, back in the a long time ago, I would act. on that. I this is the best plan. Let's. we're going to do this. And then I, you. know, and then I realize this is a just. a total [ __ ] waste of energy. >> Yeah. >> And it just makes you look like an. [ __ ]. >> I think. And so.

>> now I'll I can't help myself a lot of. times and I will still go through the. planning phase on what I could what can. I do to get back at this person. And. then I've developed one where somehow. I've developed enough discipline to. never act on it. >> That's a good first step. >> Just to let it go. I imagine it's. there's an extra level of u not. temptation but strugg where you're like. I could break this person in half you. know like I I don't that's not a thought. that enters my head but I I imagine when.

you are trained to do what you are. trained to do and at different points in. your life that has been unleashed. the just for just the restraint of going. hey that's not the g that's not the the. rules of engagement in in the world that. I'm in now that would be like a a level. of like restraint that you would have to. practice. Well, one of the things I. think about is like, okay, if somebody. tried to control my thoughts or. controlled what I said or controlled.

what I did, I'd like I'd resist that. Like just instinctively I that's no, I. get to decide. I'm in charge. And yet we. kind of hand our minds over to people. all the time. Like we let them we let. them just take up like inordinate. amounts of time and space in our life. I. was talking to this. talking to this writer I know and she. was saying, you know, she really didn't. like what was happening politically and. she was saying that she was having. trouble. She's like, I just can't I. can't work right now. Like she's like,

I'm so outraged. I'm so upset, so pissed. off that like I just I can't I can't do. it. And I was saying like, okay, but. like if this administration came to you. and was like, "Hey, if you keep doing. your work, we're going to throw you in. prison." You'd be like, like you would. that would be so immediately galvanizing. >> that that it would fire you up, right? >> You would never allow a government of of. any persuasion to tell you what you can.

and can't say. Like, that's the job of. an artist, right? And that's what it. means to be an American. That's what's. all right there in the First Amendment. And I was like, but here voluntarily. you're doing precisely that because you. don't like what's happening in the world. because it's dark or pissing you off or. whatever. You're allowing it to consume. so much of your mental bandwidth and. your motivation. that's having the same effect. Like they. might as well be putting a gun to your. head and saying you can't do this, but.

it's actually worse because they're not. doing that. And so I I do think it's. really important that we. we. you got to have some mechanism by which. you put up some walls and boundaries and. then you protect the thing that. that is yours. Like you like the the. Stokes would say the greatest empire is. like command of yourself, right? Your. sovereignty as a as an individual. And. the problem is we give that up all the. time because somebody cut us off in.

traffic, you know, like because we. opened up our phone and the news was. bad, because our parents are visiting or. you know what, like we just let these. things get inside us and then determine. our mood, determine our our, you know, our focus, determine what we think. about, determine our behavior. And I. mean, it's not easy. It's a lot of work. And I I fall down this, you know, sort. of into these traps all the time. But I. I am trying to go hey like I'm. I got to I got to protect this even.

even if. it feels [snorts] good or it it it it. feels natural. I can't allow that. >> Have you ever done psychedelics? >> No. >> Okay. Well, the reason I'm asking, yeah, I have. Um, I did uh I did I gain. treatment in Mexico 4 years ago. I. haven't had a drop of booze since. Been. a lot more in the moment. Um, it it was.

very uh it was a life-changing. experience for me. [clears throat] Uh. anyways, the reason I bring it up is. it's it's. there's been very few times in my life. where I've been able to completely. separate myself from I guess maybe my. ego. >> and look at things uh from a just a. detached. point of view that's maybe a different. perspective than what I'm feeling in the. moment. One of the things that I I I did.

this like really intense therapy thing. and I was I was um you know sort of like. just vomiting all this anger and. resentment I had at these this group of. people and um the therapist was like um. you know they're not thinking about you. at all, right? And. and he was like they they're just doing. their thing. That's who they are.

They they have no awareness of not only. are they not doing it on purpose. Um but. like they're. utterly unconcerned and disinterested of. its effect on you. Like they're not. waking up and thinking about torturing. you in this way. They're not waking up. and thinking about abusing you in this. way. They're not waking up and trying to. make you miserable. They're inherently. selfish, narcissistic people. Like,

they're waking up and thinking about. them. He's not saying it's awesome to be. them. He's just saying like they're not. thinking about you at all. And it's. like, we can see this, I think, much. more clearly in other stuff. Like, the. economy is not thinking about you. Like, a hurricane's not thinking about you. That truck barreling towards you on the. freeway is not thinking about you. But. then for some reason because people do. have intentions and and obviously we. have to be aware of them, we do I think. project a lot more. um intentionality on other people than.

is actually happening. And I think when. you have someone who's like. like way inside your head reminding. yourself that you're not inside their. head is really important. And then I I. like you all sometimes I'll be like I. just planned out like a whole operation. in my head of what I'm going to do if. they do this. And it's like this is a. hypothetical. Like I just I just uh my.

whole run I was thinking about what I'm. going to say if they say this and then. I'm going to say this and then but and. it's like this conversation might not. even happen. >> Contingency planning. >> Yeah. for for for a madeup scenario. about a person that again. if you ask them you're like they'd be. like who [laughter] you know like they. wouldn't think about me at all. And so. it's like you're not the center of the. universe and almost certainly you're not. the center of whatever the situation. that you're making all about you is.

>> Makes sense. Also where I was going with that is is. stoicism the ability to kind of uh view. things not as a participant of what's. happening. It's just strictly an in. observation or observing a situation. >> Yeah. It's like sometimes it's really. helpful to zoom way in and then. sometimes it's helpful to zoom way out. But it's like a lot of times it's like. how do I take myself out of this. equation? >> Okay. >> And that I that's what ego does, right?

Ego makes it all about you. It makes you. at the center of things. And even just. remembering that like everyone is the. center of their situation and that like. you're not the main character in all. these other people's stories. You're the. uh a tangential character at best is is. helpful. Like yeah, why why am I making. this all about? Like this was not. whatever this was was not specifically. chosen to drive you nuts. like like um. and um that again it's it's it's totally.

indifferent to you. Like one of the. ideas for the Stoics is events are. objective, our opinions about them are. not like the situation is what it is and. then we say like this is good or bad. I. don't mean morally like positive or. negative. We say like this is fair or. unfair. We say this is like mean or. cruel. We say this was, you know, targeted. We say like we've been harmed. by it. Like the thing is, and then we.

decide. what it means. And a lot of times the. stories we tell ourselves about stuff. are pretty self-absorbed, pretty distorted, and um like pretty emotional. And I. think how do you get better at going, what if I could see this from another. perspective or another way or what if I. told myself a different story about this. event? >> Yeah. Wh what happens? I mean, what goes. through your when I told you, you know,

oh, I'll spend an entire day planning. revenge or vengeance. What What happens. in your head when you're wronged? when. you think you've been wronged when. somebody's. >> well often at times I go okay um let's. say I I pull this revenge off. in all the times in my life when I have. done it how did I feel after. >> pretty shitty. >> yeah shitty or at best disappointed you.

know and. why am I telling myself it's going to be. different this time. and I the idea of thinking about what. you're going to I think after is like a. really powerful way. Do you know you. know the word epicurion? >> I don't. >> That's that that was the rival school to. the Stoics. There was the Stoics and the. Epicurans. And Epicurian. also in English tends to mean like loves. pleasure. Um you know indulges every. whim. It and that's not really what they.

thought at all. But Epicurus what he. would say he he was let's say more. pleasure seeking than the Stoics. He. would say though, like if you're gonna. you're like, "Hey, let's have let's. share this bottle of wine." He's like, "You can't think about just how it's. going to feel on the way down. You have. to think about how you're going to feel. after." And that that part of the. uh the experience has to be put into the. calculation. >> Okay? >> But humans are bad at this, right? Like.

we we tell ourselves, "Oh, if I make. this amount of money, then I'll feel. secure and good. if I get with this. person then I'll feel it'll be amazing. and and then I'll feel good and people. will look if I get this car we if I if I. win this office if I you know hit this. number on the chart like we we just we. tell ourselves this lie. >> that like this thing will do something. for us now the first time or when you're. younger we can excuse this because like.

we don't have although there's all sorts. of wisdom out there telling us that it's. not going to do what we think it's going. to do for us. We don't we haven't. directly tested the hypothesis. ourselves. But I think as you get older. to still be falling for that lie is a. problem, right? You know, like you know. how you feel when you have a hangover, you got to take like that should change. the drinking that you do. You know, uh. that um I don't know, your marriage is.

incredibly important to you. um and. certainly not worth a few minutes of. pleasure. And yet you in the moment are. considering doing something that you. know would would blow that up. Or you. know all your other accomplishments have. never. >> made you feel secure or like you've. arrived that there is an emptiness or a. hollowess to them and yet you go it's. different this time. Like why do we I. mean yeah.

>> well I think from an evolutionary. standpoint it makes total sense right. like um if if humans were good at being. like I'm good I don't need anymore like. enoughness is not a great evolutionary. >> feeling. >> but like insatiability. >> makes you go on to the next and the next. and the next thing and so that can be. good for the species as a whole but. really bad for the individual ual. >> makes sense. >> I think I I think it's we're not.

we are not designed. to our biology is not inclined to make. us feel content and happy and secure and. it takes a lot of work like to. counteract that that impulse. [snorts]. >> How have you done it? Um, I mean, I I I I struggle with it. like everybody else. I I I I.

try to walk through this process like. how am I going to like am I It's not. that to me like going like okay, hey, if. I get on the other side of this this. accomplishment, this achievement, whatever, it's not going to make me feel. so it's not going to magically fill some. hole in my soul. That doesn't mean it's. not worth doing. I can find other. reasons to do it. Like it's challenging, it's interesting, um you know, it's it's. beneficial to people around me. Like.

there's other reasons to do it. So I I. And then what I find is that if I'm. doing it for those different reasons, the outcome, if I'm lucky enough to get. it, I uh I feel differently about it, too, because there's not there's not a. false expectation that was impossible to. meet. But I I think I I I mean I'm I'm. constantly. trying to to. stop and go why do I why do I keep.

finding myself in this same why do you. know and the definition of insanity is. trying the same thing over and over. again expecting different results. Like. that's that's like the kind of the human. condition. And I'm like, why why do I. keep sort of backing myself into this. corner, finding myself going down this. lane, and then I'm like, I know better. than this. I'm doing it. I think I'm. doing it better than I was when I was. 19, but like I'm still doing some. version of it. And I think. that's kind of we're all battling these.

kind of scripts or these patterns that. we picked up on in our lives and we're. we're trying to get a little. >> trying to get a little better at it as. we go. Yeah, it's uh reminds me of the saying. nothing nothing's what it's cracked up. to be. [laughter]. >> But well, how did you get into this? >> I wasm caught your interest. >> Yeah. Uh it's funny. I was in college. I. was taking a philosophy class and. then I went to this uh I went to this.

conference. I was I was I wrote for the. college newspaper and um I asked the the. guy who's speaking I said like hey you. got any book recommendations and he was. like you know I'm reading this guy. Epictitus I think you would like it and. I ended up getting somehow I I I forget. how but I ended up with Marcus Reelis. instead probably cuz I saw the movie. Gladiator and and uh and I just I open. this book and I go what the [ __ ] has. this been you know like um this is what.

like this exists like this is this. advice is there like and it kind of just. it kind of just turned my world upside. down. >> How so? just just that. I think I think all young people anyone. coming of age but but but men especially. in this world are looking for. like the path like. what should you do what should you not. do and they're looking for it in a way.

that like school doesn't address they're. looking for it in a way that the church. doesn't address. I mean especially I. think I think in some ways like uh uh. you know some sports programs and. definitely maybe like a military. tradition it is based on certain values. and. uh you're you're being inducted into a. way of life. >> right um but if you don't have that um.

you know you go away to college and. they're like you can do whatever you. want like you can be whoever you want. You can do whatever you want. If it. feels good, it's right, you know. Um, you just have effectively unlimited. choice, right? We like we live in a. world like religion used to go like, "Hey, don't do these things or you'll go. to hell.". >> And I think obviously that puts a lot of. fear and shame and control on people. That's not good. Um, but the problem is.

when you when you say, "Hey, do whatever. you want. Nothing's wrong, everything's. right. Trust your gut. You know, like. the last thing a 19-year-old should be. doing is trusting their gut. Like you're. [laughter] an idiot, you know, especially like a especially a. 19-year-old dude, you know, like um and. so I I think what struck me about. stoicism was like, oh, this is a this is. a 2500y year tradition. This is a.

tradition that's been followed by the. most powerful people in the world. Some. of the most powerless people in the. world. Epictitus is a slave. And these. are people that were were dealing with. uncertainty and chaos and disorder and. dysfunction. They were dealing with. temptation. They were dealing with. adversity. They were dealing with loss. and pain. And hey, they they wrote some of their. experiences down and they they put it.

into a framework that that it's actually. strikingly modern. Let's just say it's. timeless. And I think that's what like. sitting at the the the table in my. college apartment, I was like, "Oh, okay." Like this makes sense to me. And. at at 21 you were the director of. marketing for American Apparel. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> How did that happen? >> Uh an insane I mean it says more about. the company than it does about me. You.

know it was a dysfunctional crazy. uh you know. uh [ __ ] show really. Um but uh. >> it got to be a huge company though. >> It was I mean it was a huge company when. I when I started there. I I I I had. nothing to do with it becoming what it. became. Um but I got sort of thrown into. the deep end. Um and. and yeah, it was.

uh yeah, my 20s were nuts. Um but I I. I watched a you know, a guy create a. billion-dollar company and then destroy. a billion dollar company. And um I. watched people get caught up in it. I. watched people get sort of spun sideways. by it. Um I watched people enable it, you know. Um I enabled it. And so I, you. know, in a way it was like it was um.

it was quite an education in. I mean it was like. it was like a king's court like he was. the sort of king and everyone was uh you. know currying favor and wanted something. and you know. it it was it was a it it certainly. informed like what I ended up writing. about a.

it at 25. You wrote, "Trust me, I'm. lying.". >> Yeah. >> Where did that come from? >> Um, it was also, you know, American. Apparel was one of the sort of most. controversial companies in the world at. that time. And so, you know, I I I had. sort of a window seat to how the media. environment worked. And then I worked. with a number of other sort of. controversial clients and stuff over the. years. So I I wrote an expose on on sort. of the media system and and marketing. and PR. I mean I basically wrote a book.

on fake news in 2011. >> That's what it seems like. >> Yeah. Yeah. I thought the funny thing is. I thought I thought um I remember trying. to get the book out as quickly as. possible going like like this is right. now and you know and if anything I was. probably 10 years early. Um, but I was I. was watching how. like the sausage got made, right? Like. how true stories got distorted and how.

madeup stories became true and how. people could get attention, what. attention would do to people, um, the. incentives of the media system. And so. the book was me kind of trying to rip. back the curtain on on what that was and. how it worked. Can you go into it a. little bit? >> Yeah. I mean, it's it's funny because I. Yeah. I mean, I wrote that book. >> because it is it's now. >> Yeah. It's funny. It's like, you know, I. wrote that book before Tik Tok existed. before um before I think maybe Instagram.

had just come come out. Um I was writing. mostly about a world of blogs and you. know, sort of not traditional media, but. like traditional media as it was being. intersected by social media. And I mean. if anything just all those trends have. accelerated now. Um but it was. ultimately the what I I'm trying to say. in the book is like you have to think. about the incentives operating on both. sides of the equation. The people that.

are trying to get messages out and then. the people who are communicating those. messages. and that. everyone is effectively. competing for attention in this enormous. ecosystem or this marketplace. And so in. a world where it used to be okay. half the world half the country. subscribes to the New York Times, half. subscribes to the Washington Post. Now. both these papers have an agenda. um.

there's a bias, but like mostly they're. trying to deliver value for the. subscribers of the of this paid product. and they're putting out a you know a. 40page newspaper where once you buy it. um all the. information is there, right? Like if you. look at like the headline in the New. York Times for the Pentagon Papers, it's. like there's no sensationalism in it. There's no crazy because like you're not.

buying the New York Times in Grand. Central Station with a news boy like. shouting like extra extra read all about. it, right? Which was the media. environment in the late 1800s and early. 1900s. And so basically what the internet did. is it broke all that apart and it made. it so every story, every headline, every. article, every clip is competing. with everything else out there, right?

So it's like what's the craziest? What. tells people what they want to hear? What pisses people off, right? Um what. offers the most certainty? That's what. dro like an analogous way like what. happened in the early to mid 2000s is. akin to what's happening now with. podcasts like which I'm sure you've. experienced which is like there was this. period where podcasts were long form. interviews. um that subscribers of that podcast. listened to. >> Mhm.

>> Right. So you have all the subscribers. to this show and you think about like. delivering highquality guests who you. have a long form conversation with and. people listen to the whole thing. and then what's been happening the last. I don't know 2 years is like the sort of. the clip economy right where now it's. like about the most sensational clip. like so that 2-hour conversation is. distilled down into a 20 second clip or. whatever And what that's doing is.

creating, as I'm sure you're seeing it. with peers of yours, is like a lot of. competition for like the craziest clips, like gotcha moments or or conversely, like you're just having the same. conversation, but then people are coming. and cutting out those clips and. spreading them. And so it's create it's. now it's creating a lot of pressure and. a lot of noise um and changing the. incentives of the medium. And so what I. was writing about in trust me I'm lying. was that sort of first wave of that.

happening where like now you don't read. a website you read articles from that. website and you only read them because. it's showing up in your Facebook feed or. it's showing up in Twitter or it's. because somebody emailed it to you. Right? And that's creating an incentive. a bias towards certain kinds of emotion. Like for instance they they found that. like the veilance of the extreness of. the emotion is like the number one. predictor of virality. So like something.

that makes you feel pretty good is not. going to be shared as something that. makes you extremely angry or something. that makes you kind of angry is not. going to spread as well as something. that makes you laugh really hard. And so. it's creating this incentive for. extremes, right? Um, so everything. becomes an exaggerated, you know, distorted version of itself to. meet that. And then you layer on top of. that, like this is the first in the sort. of blog world, one of the first kind of.

big breakthroughs was like reporters or. influencers or what you you were you. were your job performance was like how. much traffic your article got or how. many views your video got, right? um. which is different than how journalists. had basically been paid for the entirety. of the institution. Um, and so in the same way that you wouldn't. want a journalist to own like shares in. a stock that they were reporting on, um, now they own stock in the story. Like.

they want instead of being like, "Hey, it's complicated and we don't know,". which isn't going to do well, they're. like. it it it shapes the story that they're. writing. And I think what we're seeing. now now that people are working for. outlets less and less and working for. themselves more and more like are you. going to tell your Substack audience. what they don't want to hear? are you. going to have a guest on like not you. but like you can imagine someone in a.

different financial position. um you're like hey when I when I have. these kind of guests my Patreon numbers. go down and when I have these kind of. guests my Patreon numbers go up or you. know um donations go up when I do this. and they go down when I do this and so. now again these financial incentives are. acting on. the information that people are getting. and people are not good at. evaluating.

the. reliability of the. person they're getting information on. We're just really bad at it. When I'm traveling in the summer, the. routine is always the first thing to. slip. Different schedule, different bed, late nights, early mornings, and you're. usually not eating the same way you. would at home. And that's why I rely on. AG1. It takes 30 seconds. One scoop,

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Visit drink a1.com/srs. to get a free AG1 travel case with seven. free AG1 travel packs in your welcome. kit with your first AG1 subscription. Order while supplies last. That's. drinkag.com/srs. I think we've lost that because I think. I think that the thirst for real. information.

has significantly significantly. diminished because now people are more. concerned with confirming. >> Yeah. >> their opinions and their own thoughts. >> Yeah. And so rather than actually search. for some kind of truth or. really try to figure out what the hell. is going on, what's at the bottom of. this, instead of doing that and and. spending the time to research and and. hear other opinions and perspectives, they they immediately sift through.

everything they possibly can to find the. one person that. >> yeah, >> is going to tell them everything that. they're thinking is correct and they. should. And then it turns into they tell. them how to think. Yeah. And and it's. [clears throat] it's become like this. lazy search for for just confirming your. own biases, opinions, and thoughts. >> Yeah. And and there's always going to be. someone who will fill that need. So like. we saw this like in the aftermath of the.

2020 election, right? It's like, oh, if. you're not going to if you're not going. to tell the audience what they want to. hear, then they're just going to go. watch this channel. And if that channel. isn't going to do it, they're going to. watch this channel. And so, it's it's. hard. Like, choice is good, but the. problem with choice when it comes to. information is that you're creating a. market incentive for people to lie to. you. Um, and typically that incentive is.

mitigated or by the fact that the media. outlet is owned by a big company or the. reporter themselves is a salaried. employee who identifies as a journalist. or a writer whatever there. It's. different when it's like no no no like I. write for Substack and I am directly. dependent on how many subscribers I have. paying subscri so like audience capture.

there's fewer intermediaries between the. creator and the the sort of payment. structure. Now, in many ways, this is. great for creators because there's fewer. people taking, you know, picking their. pocket along the way, but it also means. that they are directly exposed to. um some perverse incentive like audience. capture is right there. >> There's an influence. >> Yeah. and and like it takes a person it. takes it takes some character and some.

self-control and some ideals to be like. no no no no I I I. have an audience the audience doesn't. have me like I say what I think needs to. be said [clears throat]. >> not what's going to do well. >> that's what I try to do I think That's. what you do, too. >> Yeah. >> I mean, do you think that because.

>> I've always been more of a long game. person than than a short game. And so, I. see exactly what you're talking about. all the time. But, and I would say that. the majority of those people don't last. very long. eventually. it patters out and you but by being. being true to yourself and not being. beholden to an audience or financial. incentive or whatever. I mean you you're. going to do this and it's a [ __ ].

roller coaster. >> Yeah. Yeah. They're they're outraged. about this and then oh no no no we're. not outraged about that anymore. Now. we're outraged about this and no no. actually I never said that. like there. there you're you're surfing you're. surfing the audience and it's both. exhausting and also it just doesn't feel. like success to me right like if if. success is like I have to tell you what. you want to hear then like. I work for you it's boring any I mean.

just to sit in here I mean I get a lot. of people pissed at me right now because. I've leaned across the aisle because I. like I like new perspectives that's how. [ __ ] gets fun, you know, and and but I. just don't I just don't [ __ ] care, you know? It's I'm like, this is this. what I'm going to do. I'm just I'm not. going to be beholden to anybody on who I. talk to and do not talk to. >> Yeah. >> And and I it's boring to me to sit there. and talk to somebody that has the exact.

same opinion to me over and over just to. confirm to each other that we're we're. the we're in the right way of thinking. But I I'm I'm curious how you navigate. it because I've you know when I started. this thing it was uh just military guys. and you know intelligence folks and. people that I'd worked with in the past. and I really just wanted to kind of. correct the record and and and actually. have people that had been in the events. that these reporters were talking about. like well actually here's what actually.

happened from a guy that was there. >> you know and Um [clears throat]. and then we started talking about. political issues, issues with kids, like. lots of different problems that society. faces and it would be a discussion. inside one of those. >> Yeah. >> And then uh to make a bigger impact, I. actually started going to the to the to. the lawmakers. Yeah. You know, to the. people in charge, people that can make a. difference. And um.

and then I realized. they all just lie to you, you know, and. they use the platform to to advance. themselves. And so now now I'm extremely. particular. I even have friends that are. running for Senate, for Congress, for. whatever. places in the administration, doesn't. matter. >> Yeah. >> You know, and um. >> I won't have them on. >> Interesting. because I just. you're just gonna tell me what you think.

I want to hear and what I think my a. what you think my audience wants to. hear. >> Yeah. >> And then even if you do have great. intentions, I've seen it too many times. You're going to get in there. You're not. going to make an impact. >> You're not going to They're going to own. your ass. You're not going to be put on. committees if you go against the grain. and you're just going to turn into the. same [ __ ] that we see every every single. time. >> Yeah. But if you do hold true to your. word, I'll help you with your. re-election. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> that's interesting. Yeah. I think. deciding.

deciding what you're going to be a part. of and not be a part of to me is like. what it's kind of all about. And um. I think. I've been amazed at the degree to which. um people I know don't think about like. hey is this a good person? Do I agree. with them? And not just agree with them, but like are they a bad actor or you.

know uh someone at least operating from. good faith or whatever? And they just. think about like how's this going to do? >> Mhm. You know, and. like. to me success and a platform comes with. responsibilities. Not not just like, hey, how do you look yourself in the. mirror, but like like people are. if they see you have someone on or they. see you writing about something or. talking about something like they assume.

that it's not a cosign, but you're. you're you're. participating, right? you're like you're. they go, "Oh, they wouldn't have this. person on if they were a psychopath or a. li like people like I I just think. there's a responsibility that comes from. having a platform or having influence. and. >> it's a huge responsibility. >> Yeah. >> People make decisions based off what. what's said in this room. >> Yeah.

>> Like life-changing decisions. >> Yeah. Yeah. There's um there was I I. remember finding when I was writing. Trust Me I'm Lying. There was some some. and it's funny none of this stuff is. new. There was this media critic and he. was writing in like the late 1800s early. 1900s and he says you know American. America is a country ruled by public. opinion. That's what a democracy is. And. he says therefore what determines public. opinion rules America. And so the people.

that own newspapers, yeah, sure it's a. for-profit business, but like they. are responsible for something that in a. way affects like the whole country and. that there has to be a respon he was. saying there has to be a responsibility. that these things are kind of public. trusts and look I again I think you get. in real problem territory when the. government is deciding you know like I'm. not saying it should be like this This. isn't something that should be legally.

policed, but like if the people with the. platforms are not policing themselves, that's a problem, right? Cuz then. basically people without character, people with um agendas, they can take. advantage of that, you know, they take. advantage of that. And and I we're so. consumed in America by like our. political disagreements that we forget.

that there's. there's people outside America that are. also trying to steer and navigate this. discourse, right? And just as by the. way, historically we have done that in. other countries. But like we seem to. think that like the only agenda someone. could have is like left or right, not. like Russian, Chinese, Iranian, like like our our enemies see. these gaping holes in our media system. and they see these people who are.

basically uh available to the highest. bidder and they're like, "Do I want to. go to a war with America or do I want to. make America go to war with itself?". >> Mhm. >> And I think one of the things I was. trying to write and trust me I'm lying. is is like, "Hey, look, here's how I'm. getting you to buy t-shirts or getting. you to follow this brand or this person. or whatever, but like real bad people. can do these same things and in fact are.

doing these same things. And I think the. to me though the even the craziest part. of our system. isn't just like that bad actors can do. it but also like the system can. manipulate itself just like like it's so. primed for for like going to where the. energy of the action is that sometimes. things that start as jokes become real. things or things that start as the most. hairbrain conspiracy theory that you. could imagine like becomes real like I I.

I live in in this town called Bastram, Texas. And one of the first ones that. really caught my eye on this, do you. remember the Jade Helm conspiracy? >> No. >> There was this conspiracy that like this. is during this 2015, so it's during the. Obama administration. They were doing. like these big training exercises in. like the South and the Southwest. Um, and uh this conspiracy theory comes out. that like it's actually this false. It's.

like this crazy operation where they're. going to like um I don't know the. federal government was going to like. occupy the southern states. It was like. the a faux military training exercise as. a pretext to like start a civil war or. something. It was this conspiracy theory. that starts online and starts on. Facebook and and one of the exercises. was happening in where I live. And um. and like the governor of Texas ends up. sending the National Guard to observe.

the exercises to make sure this didn't. happen. As if as if uh. >> that could do anything. Uh [laughter]. but but but anyways, the point was it it. came out in the years after that this. was mostly like a a foreign sort of. propagated the like that like this thing. some crazy person online said this. >> and then. >> it was ejected from a foreign influence. >> and then yeah exactly like they went and. they put they put energy behind they put.

spend behind it and spread and whatever. and so it was like oh okay so again. we're so consumed with like what we're. doing to each other that we don't think. about the fact that other people have an. even bigger incentive to get us really. focused on this or that. And so again, you know, countries that are real close. to Russia, like Finland, they spend a. lot of time teaching media literacy to. their kids. >> because they know that it's real and.

they know that these operations and this. agenda is right there all the time. >> Mhm. And I think we we live in a bubble. uh because we've so often been the. exporter of culture that we don't think. about the ways that. you know different. uh nations, causes, etc. have a vested interest in.

directing that culture in certain ways. >> And so that's one of the things I was. talking about in the book, too. >> Yeah. I've uh I mean I've like I said. I've I've changed my tune since the last. election and you know what I've realized. is I think I think that the. you can have a better bigger impact in. just initiating in how you initiate. certain conversations rather than who. you initiate them with. >> If you start the conversation properly.

and plant the seed then it it will grow. it will grow into what it needs to be. >> Yeah. >> Instead of trying to hit the head honcho. and and and pour your ideas into them. and and hold them accountable. >> Interesting. What do you mean? >> I mean that. What do I mean? I mean that I've just. everybody I've brought on here that that. that that. can make an immediate impact that is in.

a position to make an immediate impact, they always fall short. >> Okay? >> No matter what they tell you. But what I. have noticed is the things that that. that. just in my own personal experience with. some of the discussions that I've had in. here, the biggest impact that we've made. is by starting a conversation and. watching the conversation grow through. the through regular people through the. population. Not not from. getting direct to a president, a. congressman, a senator, CEO of a. company, a uh somebody that owns a.

nonprofit, whatever. It's it's the. conversation that happens that that. engages the population has a much much. bigger impact than going directly to the. decision maker. >> Have you heard that expression that. politics is downstream from culture? >> No. I think that's sort of what you're. saying is like uh what matters is. the consensus or the idea like the the. the energy the vibe is more important.

than like a single decision maker which. is by the way our whole system like our. we have a decentralized system. >> so where decision-m is decentralized and. and widespread because the founders were. so concerned about sort of man on. horseback back. >> and and so there really isn't one. singular person who can make a. difference. >> Now the problem is. that is also allowed a lot of people who.

are in positions of power to. abdigate their responsibility to make a. difference, right? like everyone. everyone is trying to save their jobs. for some point in the future when. they'll be the decision maker, you know, and um. >> like. look, you do need those people, >> but chances are you're not that person. >> Yeah. >> Like chances are you should do the right. thing right now. >> Yep. It's interest. It's interesting. I.

think what do you think it is? I think. it's addiction to power. >> But then looking at it from the out and. it does appear that they have a lot of. power, but then when you see it and. you're like, you're you're [ __ ]. completely powerless because you're not. saying what needs to be said even though. you know exactly what the [ __ ] you need. to do because you want to hang on to the. fake power that you think you have. But. you're actually powerless because you're. not saying what you know needs to be. said.

because you know you won't have that. position anymore when that position. represents your power, your relevance in. society. >> I think the difference here there's. there's power and there's status, right? >> And so um they don't exercise the power. because they want to keep the status. >> Like I mean look, Thomas Massie is is is. not going to be a congressman much. longer. >> Mhm. Um, the irony is when you meet a. lot of these politicians. um, privately, not only will they tell. you a bunch of things that they won't.

say in public, but they will also tell. you how much they don't like their job. Like, they [ __ ] hate it. Like, it's a. miserable job. They don't like their. colleagues. They think there's a lot of, you know, performance and they have to. spend all this time fundraising. They. don't like the job. And yet when it. comes down to these votes that seem to. me to be very clearly consciencebased or. very stark moral choices, um they're like, "Well, I got to do.

what I know is wrong to keep this job. that I don't [ __ ] like." I'm like, "I. don't get it at all. It doesn't make any. sense to me." Right? But the problem is. I I remember I was sitting in the Senate. dining room talking to um uh a senator. and and I was saying like, "Hey, why. don't you guys you and I you and I. probably have very different politics, but I was like, why don't you know this. Trump thing is crazy? Like what are we. doing here?" And um I was like, "Why. don't you speak out about it?" You know, and um and he goes, "See that guy over.

there?" And he's like I was like, "Yeah." And he's like, "That guy was. going to be head of the CIA." And he's. and and I go, "Okay." And he's like, "And then uh I could probably say who it. was." He said that that uh the White. House was like adult daycare over there. I think it was Senator Corker. And he's. like he's not even going to be a senator. anymore. You know, he was like that guy. was in line for the next office, the. next level. >> And he made a comment. >> and uh it's not happening anymore. And.

the guy was basically saying like that's. that's why. and he was laying it out. like it like it's it's just it is crazy. cuz like me as a citizen I'm like you're. one of the uh you know hundred most. powerful people in the world. >> Mhm. >> And. that's not how they see themselves. And. so. I don't know why would you want I I and. look I I I write about this I wrote this. book on encourage I talk about I was.

once when I was at American peril I was. once asked to do this thing that was. profoundly wrong and immoral and um and. uh I didn't do it but I thought about. doing it and I struggled with doing it. and and the reason that I didn't I. didn't like challenge my boss about it. was that I didn't want to get fired. right now in retrospect fact, why would. I want to keep a job that speaking up. about something that was wrong would get. you fired from? That's crazy. It doesn't. make any sense. But this is these are.

the equations that we make in our heads. But why would you want to work in an. administration. where even the slightest criticism gets. you on the [ __ ] list? It's not going to. be a good job. This thing, this job that. you dreamed of of having your whole. life, it it's not what you think it is, right? like they just showed you it's. not what you think it is. But um we. rationalize where everybody everybody is. saving themselves for this.

thing. >> higher calling. >> This higher call. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh I. remember you know Adam Kinzinger. >> Mhm. I remember he was saying he felt. like a lot of I was talking to him once. and he was telling me that he feel he he. feels like um members of Congress tell. themselves there's a super congress and. their job is like that super congress. will take care of it and it's like no no. you were elected to take care of this. This is what we sent you to Washington. We didn't send you there to be in your.

the job for as long as you could have. it. We sent you there to represent our. interests and to solve the problems of. uh governance, right? That's the [ __ ]. job. >> And you think your job is to continue to. be congressman or congresswoman. and um you're so afraid of being the. former senator from Massachusetts or the. former congresswoman from California. that you aren't making the tough.

decisions that you you have to you have. to make. And. look, one of the things I've been trying. to remind myself of is like it is very. easy as citizens to be like, why aren't. these people risking their jobs to do. what is right and why aren't they. putting themselves out there? And then. it's like you, and by you, I mean like. the person listening, you are working a. job you [ __ ] hate and uh you know you. could be doing something different or.

better. you work you're working in an. industry that you know is [ __ ] up like. blah blah blah what was the last risk. you took like that. >> like it's you know what I mean it's very. it's very easy to evaluate the moral. choices and the complicity and the. contradictions in other people. um and of of course as citizens it's our. job to do that and to throw those people. out that's that you cannot we cannot. keep this republic as Benjamin Franklin. said if we don't do that however to me.

the main in the main purpose of looking. at this the coward cowardice and the. contradictions and the shamelessness and. the the sort of petty turf wars is is it. it should it should be a mirror. reflected back at ourselves and go well. I could be doing more like I could be I. tell my kids to follow their dreams and. then I'm like.

not doing it, you know? And so I I don't. know. I I just think it's really easy to. kind of just point this like judgment. lens at Washington or the state house or. whatever. But ultimately, you got to. point it at yourself. >> Yeah. I would It's interesting you bring. that up because I wanted to talk to you. about hypocrisy, being a hypocrite. I'm. I'm sure we all are. I mean, I'm. >> real one of us. Yes. real quick to point. it out in everybody else, but I do do a.

lot of self-reflection and I talk to a. lot, you know, how can I improve? What. I'm always thinking about that whether. it's being a dad, being a businessman, being a podcast, whatever it is, you. know, and and I can't find the. I can't find my own hypocrisy. Does that make sense. >> on on. >> I don't know what it is. I don't know. I. mean, now I'm sure it'll show up in the. comments section. the comments can be. helpful for that. >> But uh but I don't I I can't see it in.

myself. A lot of times I can't see it in. myself right right now. >> No, no. I mean, look, this is why this. is why a company's got to have a board. of directors. This is why a president is. supposed to have a cabinet. I think the. most alarming thing about where we are. politically right now is that not only. are a lot of the governmental checks and. balances not there, uh but a lot of the. A lot of the cultural checks and. balances aren't there. Like the press is.

supposed to be hostile to power. >> and the cabinet is like the the founders. set up a system um where ambition was. supposed to be a check against ambition, right? The um. Congress was supposed to zealously. enforce its prerogatives. Like part of. being a senator, like part of the perk. of being a senator and having a six-year. term, whereas the president has a. four-year term is you're supposed to be. able to go like this to the president.

when the president is wrong. Right? Like. Congress has war making powers, not the. president. But if Congress decides that they don't. want to enforce that power, then the. president has that power, >> right? And um you know if if we have a. partisan news environment where the. left-wing media slobers all over a. left-wing president and the right-wing. media slobers all over uh the right-wing.

president and then if the president has. a cabinet and has been allowed to. confirm a cabinet of people who are. dependent on him and um fully bought in. on him, then the president's never going. to hear no and never going to hear, "Uh, that's a dumb [ __ ] idea." [laughter]. Like, uh, what about this? What about. that? Um. and and so.

I mean we know historically what happens. when people in positions of power are. not subject to any checks and balances. and when their information diet is. degraded. Like one of the oldest stories. that we have about this is that the. emperor has no clothes, right? And when. everyone says, "Hey, sir, we love your. new outfit." And he's walking around. naked. That there was a there was a.

reason there's a moral to that story. And it's funny, actually, Mark Cerelius, the reason Marcelius becomes emperor is. actually like 2,000 years earlier, an. illustration of that story. So the. Hadrien does not have a son. He's the. emperor of Rome. He doesn't have a son. So he has to choose his successor. And there's this kid. He's a member of a. sort of prestigious Roman family who. somehow he meets. That kid is Marcelius.

And um for some reason Marxelius as a. young kid just doesn't seem to be. intimidated by the emperor at all and he. tells him the truth. And you can imagine. that the the emperor of Rome does not. hear the truth very often. It's actually. a famous story about Hrien where Hrien. is in an argument with one of his. adviserss who's a philosopher and uh. some it's like it's we don't know. exactly what it was about but it was. something where it was like it's like an. objective. you know like uh anyways the the.

philosopher ends up saying you know what. sir you're right you're I was wrong. you're right and um later one of his. friends comes up to him and he says you. know why did you tell the emperor he was. right like the like the math equation is. very clear. He's wrong. And uh the. philosopher looks at him and he says, "Ah, this is what you don't understand. The man who controls 50 legions is. always correct.". Right? Like people don't tell powerful. people the truth because they are afraid.

of powerful people, >> right? And um Marxelis supposedly tells. the emperor Hadrien the truth and his. his nickname is Verismus, like the. truest one. Part of what what makes. Hrien ultimately select Marcus Curelius. is that he is like the boy in the story, the emperor has no clothes, who actually. says to the emperor, "Sir, you're naked. What are you talking about? Like, I. don't care what these people said. You. don't have any [ __ ] clothes on. You. got conned." Right? [clears throat] And.

so. you as you become powerful and important. and as you p this is why revenge is bad. When you get a reputation for punishing. your enemies or punishing your perceived. enemies like critics, um it degrades your picture of the world. because you have just sent a message to. everyone around you. Do not challenge. that person. Do not tell them the truth.

Do not tell them what they don't want to. hear. Like, do you think there were many. advisers who told Putin that invading. Ukraine would be a bad idea? Like, do. you think anyone laid out like this is. how bad it could go? >> No. >> No. Cuz you don't want to end up [ __ ]. in a plane crash, right? Or like uh you. don't want to fall out of fourthstory. window. And so. often times you think you want control. You think you want uh people on board.

You think you want true believers. Um. and you don't like the antagonistic. uh uh hostile like the this the system. of government we have is set up there. for a reason. Even even the so-called. deep state is also there for a like you. want career governmental employees who. are not necessarily political. I mean. there can be problems with it too. I'm. I'm not don't mean to overstate it but. like you want a bureaucracy that doesn't.

want to swing too far in one direction. or the other direction. You want. Congress to be oppositional. You want. your cabinet to uh have their own. political ambitions. Like Lincoln staffs. his cabinet with his political rivals. because he wants. he knows that what he has to do is. extremely difficult. And if he only has.

people telling him what he wants to. hear, he will not actually be able to do. it. >> And so I that to me is what alarms me. about where we are. We're I'm just you. know you brought up an interesting point. about. I mean where do you draw the line. between. sending a message maybe not revenge or. vengeance but sending a me cuz I've done. this where where I I will never initiate. I shouldn't say never I will not.

initiate. arguments blast people get in fights on. the internet I just think this shit's. stupid and it's a waste of time and. causes a lot of stress. [clears throat] But there have been. times where. powerful people come after me and then I. think it is not just I I think it from. for a variety of reasons. I I think it's. important to stand up. >> Yeah. >> into engage.

one to set an example to anybody else. out there that's planning on coming. after me. if you do come after me, this. is what the [ __ ] going to happen if. you back me into a corner. I think it. also gives other people courage. I just. went through one of these at the at the. beginning of the year. A congressman. >> um went after me and. >> I went right back at him and now he's no. longer in [ __ ] Congress. >> Yeah. >> But, you know, I did that because uh I I. I mean, I started this in my attic. So,

I still I I don't I'm still coming to. the full realization of the magnitude of. the [ __ ] that can come out of here. >> because I still consider myself that guy. in the attic that. >> was doing this with my wife. It's a. small thing. And but [clears throat]. >> so I'm kind of in the middle of, you. know, does that make sense? >> But I also did that because I wanted to. show people like you don't have to get. [ __ ] pushed around by these people, man. They're going to come after you. And it.

is scary to have somebody that high up. in government coming after you, >> but they don't have as much power as you. think they do. >> Yeah. >> And I just prove that. >> You know, and at the same time, I don't. want to, you know, for for for my. immediate team, like I I. >> I ask anybody that's been here for a. little bit, you know, that's especially. the guys that have been here from the. beginning, which is only a handful of. them. >> Yeah. you I'm always asking them like, "Hey, what do you think of this? Am I.

off? Am I off on this?" You know, and. >> I think they tell me, you know, especially my top two guys tell me. >> They tell me. >> Yeah. >> But, you know, I don't want to Do you. see what I'm getting at? >> No, totally. I think, look, sometimes. you got to establish some deterrence or. you get you get pushed around. I think. that's important. Um, but yeah, I I I do. think what we're talking about. culturally is the problem. like we we. want people to stand up. We want people.

to to do the right thing. And then what. examples. do they have of that happening? And I. think we're in like a almost like a. cultural death spiral of a lack of those. examples. And so I do think it's. important um like making a martyr of. yourself, you know, is is usually not a. great thing to do. But like. the idea that like uh there are more.

people out there that feel this way than. people think is really important. >> Mhm. >> And cuz it's so easy to think like, oh, everyone's going along with this. Everyone's okay with this. Like this is. just this is just what we have to put up. with. And and I think it's important. like acts of courage. Like cowardice is. contagious and so is courage. Um. moral courage and physical courage. Like. if you see someone else do it, it.

changes your sense of what's possible. and what um is sort of uh. the cultural expectation. And. I think when I say we're in a death. battle, it's like it's like everyone is. saving themselves for some crisis. And. it's like, dude, this is the crisis. [laughter]. here, man. Um, what are you how much. worse are you expecting it to get?

>> Um, and and look, like the Stoics are not. exempt from this. As I said, uh, Senica. works for Nero. Now, Senica probably. told himself he was the adult in the. room, that he was making Nero less bad, and that he prevented Nero from doing a. lot of bad stuff, and he almost. certainly did. Um, but as a result, he. also allowed Nero to do a lot of bad. stuff. And these are not easy moral.

choices. Um, and I the only reason I. think like 2,000 years later it becomes. a little clearer, right? Um, but in the. moment they're they are vexing uh. emotional and moral choices. And when. you're asking someone to choose, hey, you're going to lose your job over this. You're going to be attacked. Maybe your. family uh will be threatened. These are. there's a lot to ask of people. I get. that. Um, but uh, chances are when you look back, you're.

going to wish you did more. >> You're going to wish you said more. You're going to wish you you're not. going to be like, "I'm so glad I. waited." And uh, because here's the. thing about waiting is that you can. always tell yourself that this isn't the. right time. That like act again. No, no, no, no. I I need to be I need to stay in. the room till the real crisis happens. And the and then and what you've. actually done is over and over and over.

again. built the habit of not doing the thing. right. >> And and um the idea that suddenly when. you're at the second to the top level, that's when you're going to gamble at. all and and do the hard thing. Like you. you have to build it as a half. Like. Aristotle said that it was wrong to. think of virtue as this thing that you. have or don't have. Like that people are. born courageous or born generous or um.

simply are uh. you know smart or you know any of the. things that we hold up as good. He's. like no no no it's a it's a verb not a. noun. It's a thing you are doing or not. doing. Like courage is a muscle you are. exe you are exercising like speaking. truth to power is a muscle you are. exercising it's a thing you are doing. not a thing you are or aren't. >> and.

so the the the the the good news about. that is like if you want to be generous. if you want to be a generous person you. can start right now like start tipping. bigger like tie the percentage of your. salary right um you you can start doing. that right now the the that's the good. news the Bad news is. if you are not doing it, you are. building the habit and the muscle of not. being that person. >> And it becomes harder and harder to. break as the stakes get higher and.

higher. >> That's a damn good point, >> Ryan. Let's take a quick break. >> All right. Most guys try to cover up body odor with. cologne or body spray. But if you've. been training, traveling, out in the. heat, on long flights, or just grinding. through a long day, that only goes so. far. That's why I use Mando. Mando is a. whole body deodorant. So, it's not just. for your underarms. You can use it on. your pits, feet, below the belt,

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>> Welcome to Hollywood versus reality. I. do it right. What does he do in the movies? [music]. Tell me if I'm doing this wrong cuz I. don't watch any of this. Little flick. like that, right? Seems pretty cool. It. is pretty cool. Got to silence it.

>> In another lifetime, I did gun reviews. for a living. Proprietary magazines, supposedly the best engineering in the. world. When that breaks, you're. And now we're bringing them back. It does look prettying cool. I got to I. got to admit that. All. right, Ryan, we're back from the break. I want to dive into ego. >> Okay. >> Ego is the enemy. You wrote a whole book.

on this. [laughter]. >> Where do we start? [snorts]. >> I mean, is there anyone that thinks ego. is good? Like, is there anyone who's. like, "We need some bigger egos around. here. That'll help.". >> I don't think so. >> Uh, I like to think of ego as as being. the thing that gets between you and. whatever it is that you want to do. So. in a way like I'm not saying like oh be. sort of humble so low to the ground that. you don't want anything. You don't try. to do anything. Like I actually think. ego is the enemy of the ambition that.

you have. Like whatever you're trying to. do like what you need is a sense of. reality. You need self-awareness. You. need sense of connection. You need. truth. like you the ingredients to doing. what you want to do are for the most. part not delusion and grandiosity and. selfishness. Like it's the opposite of. that. So when I say ego is the enemy, I'm I'm not saying like uh think you're. a piece of [ __ ] I'm saying just don't.

think you're God's gift to humanity. Like confidence to me is somewhere in. the middle between those two extremes. Um and uh and yeah, chances are ego is. causing the problems, not solving the. problems. And personally or in your. organization. >> How do you keep yours in check? I mean, you're an extremely successful guy. >> Well, I mean, I see. >> a lot of people that find success and. then their ego just [ __ ] explodes.

>> Yeah. I look the first first and. foremost, admitting that you have one. and that it is a problem is like a. critical step. Like like if I'm sitting. here going like, "Let me tell you how to. conquer your ego cuz I don't have one.". Like. >> be real suspicious cuz you know I mean. my ego causes problems for me all the. time. Um. it's something I try to work on. It's. something I try to work on and I'd be. aware of and and knowing that yeah like. success inflates the ego. Success uh it.

not just inflates the ego but it it. enables people around you to inflate the. ego. Right? Like in a in a way you need. to be more self-critical and aware the. more successful you are for the reasons. we were just talking about which is you. the air is thinner and you get less not. only do you get less feedback but you. got this really important piece of. feedback that can be really um uh. misleading which is like you did. something that wasn't supposed to be.

possible. you didn't listen to the. critics and doubters and haters. and so do you take from that that you. know better than everyone else right. like this happens to a lot of. entrepreneurs like everyone said it was. a bad idea everyone said it didn't work. how do you know when to listen in the. future like like when Elon Musk started. >> uh SpaceX which was his second company.

>> with the money that he made from his. first company. Like his friends had like. a literal intervention like you cannot. do this. This is a bad bad idea. You. will lose everything. I mean it's going. to go public and be a multi- trillion. dollar company, right? So like they were. wrong. So how does he now. and by the way this is also true for. Tesla that was supposedly a bad idea, right? Like how does he. I think this is again a sort of larger.

life story that should help us. understand this in our own lives like. how how does he know in future instances. not to just listen to himself right and. so you know he's done some real dumb. stuff too and that's what ego does is. that sense of I don't need to listen to. you I know better. >> so with that earlier we were chatting. about trusting your gut instinct Yeah, >> obviously Elon trusted his gun instinct. when it came to SpaceX and it it was it.

is wildly successful, >> maybe the biggest company in the world. Yeah. >> And. >> you know, and so how how do you. differentiate what to take in from. external influences. and. what gut instincts to trust? >> Well, to me it comes down to like the. story you tell yourself, right? So, like. like when I went to my publisher and I. was like, "Hey, I want to write a book. about stoic philosophy," they were not. like cha-ching. You know, like they were.

like, "What?" You know, that sounds like. a horrible idea. Like literally, they. were like, "Huh?" Uh, and. I think I I I've said this before, but I. took I took um less than half what I I. took for for the for the book that. became the obstacles away. I took less. than half what I got for trust me. So. like they thought it was going to be. less than 50%. >> wow. >> successful as successful. So what's the.

lesson that I take from that? Like it I. mean it ended up selling millions of. copies and being this big thing. Like do. I take from that like those [ __ ]. idiots at my publisher don't know [ __ ]. right? Do I take from that like I'm a. genius that I can see around corners. that I that like I know what the people. want or do I take from this like hey I. had what I thought was a pretty good. idea and um. I could see how it wasn't a obvious home.

run to some other people and the reason. it succeeded is because of you know uh I. I did the. I was willing to roll the dice anyway. And also because like. the downsides of being wrong were not. that high either, right? Like I took a. risk and it paid off. It wasn't a. certainty that I knew. It's I took a. risk and it paid off. So [snorts] do I. So again, you could take and we have a.

thousand examples of this, but like you. could take from this, hey, I'm a genius. I know better. That's that's the ego. Or. you can go, hey, I took a risk and it. paid off. That's to me confidence with. some self-awareness in there. And so. whatever story you tell yourself about. why you are where you are, it uh it. doesn't change what happened. Like the. event doesn't know that you're telling a. story about it, but it does change how. you make future decisions. >> Mhm. >> Right. like um if you feel like you're.

anointed, if you feel like the rules. don't apply, if you feel like you can. defy gravity, you know, all these things. make it really likely that in the future. you're going to overreach. And that tends to be what successful. people do, right? They tend to. overreach. And so that's that's what I. think you want to take from from like. trust your gut but trust the right part. about it not the delusional part of it. Do you feel that you have ever.

overreached? >> Yeah. I mean I I try to think mostly. back around the calls that I made where. I was super wrong. Like I don't think. about the fights I had with my publisher. where I ended up being right. I think. about the times where I insisted on. getting my way and in retrospect. they had a point. You know, I try to. think about the. the. times where, you know, I didn't listen.

to the feedback um and I. would have saved myself a painful bump. on the head had I done so. And I think. that's healthier. I mean, like again, like if you focus on all the things you. know, you don't get any better. If you. focus on what you don't know, you can. get better. If you focus on where you. fell short, you can make improvements. And if you focus on what you got right, you're just jerking yourself off. >> How about humility?

>> I mean, I think humility is important to. me. Confidence is confidence is an. awareness of strength and an awareness. of weakness. Like. to me the story of David and Goliath is. at its core uh about the power of both. of those things, right? Um David doesn't. think, oh, I'm anointed by God, therefore I of course I can defeat. Goliath, right? um if if if he knew that he was.

pre-ordained to win, he would have just, you know, rushed heedlessly into battle. and uh let God take care of it, right? Like the story to me that the the. critical part in the story of David and. Goliath is when David tries on the armor. of the soldier, his brothers, and it's. too big. And he goes, "I can't do this. like this isn't going to work. I'm I'm. He's like as a shepherd, he's just not.

able to operate as a traditional. warrior. And that's when he turns to the. sling, right? The sling is, hey, he's. bigger than me. He's stronger than me. He's better trained than me. I don't. have these tools in my toolkit, but I do. have this thing. >> Right? And so humility to me is a key. element in matching what we're what what. every battle figurative and literal is.

about, which is about matching strength. against weakness. Like strength against. strength is stupid. Um. it it. usually creates two losers even if. there's one winner, right? like the what. a great general does, what a great. athlete does, what a great entrepreneur. does um is match strength against. weakness. Like and and by the way, also.

protects hides your own weakness, right? Because that's where you don't want. their strength to go against yours. So, so to me, this humility is really. important, like knowing what you're not. that good at, what you need to get. better at. um is uh yeah it's like a big. part of it. >> How do you keep yourself humble? >> You know the kids help uh spouse helps. Um.

trying to do hard [ __ ] helps. Like if you are only doing what you're. really comfortable with and you're never. in situations that you're outmatched, that you're um. that you're out of your depth in, you lose that feeling of like, oh [ __ ]. I got to figure this out. >> Mhm. >> Um. and so like when I take on projects, one. of the things I think about is like, is. this something I've done before? And if.

if it's something I've done before, like. it's not that interesting to me. And if. it's something where I'm like, "Oh, I'm. going to have to figure out a lot of. different skills to be able to do this.". Um, and this can be in I don't mean like. you're reinventing the wheel every time. Like, um, I just mean like what's the. element of your game that you're working. on? Like if you go into the off season. and you're like, I want to practice. getting better at what I'm really good. at. I think that that is, you know, not.

just not just the gains are going to be. less than exciting, but like it's a sort. of a confirmation of ego, but if you're. like, "Hey, no, no, what I don't what. I'm not good at is this. What I could. get better at is this." And that's what. you're going to spend your time on. To. me, that's. that that helps with humility because. you're waking up every day and it's. [ __ ] hard and it sucks. >> Mhm. Um, [clears throat] and it's just. it's uh you can't you can't feel.

you can't feel great about how you're. doing when you're getting your ass. kicked. And so, how are you seeking out. those experiences? I think that's really. important. >> What about with just amongst people? I. mean, somebody as successful as. yourself. You've reached millions of. people with your books. Lots of people seek you out. They want. to talk to you. They want to meet you. They want to get an autograph. They want. to pick your brain. They want to They. just want to be around. Yeah. You know,

and and that can. >> really inflate your ego. So, how do you. navigate that? Especially How do you. navigate that around your kids? >> Yeah. Yeah. It is like when you get. recognized around your kids, it's a. weird It's a weird thing. My kids uh. like they roll their eyes and uh. they uh they we we were in Greece this. summer and they started playing this. game where they would they they wanted. to see if they would see more stray cats. than I would get recognized.

And uh the fact that they saw like. hundreds of more stray cats than I got. recognized was like a thing they were. just constantly shoving in my face, which I love. I loved uh and um you know. so yeah there there is there is that uh. I think any anything you do in public. that has fans or you know uh sort of. recognition attached to it can can sort. of puff you up. I have the benefit in.

what I do and that it's not mine. Like I. write about an ancient philosophy that. um has been around for 2500 years. Like. the reason the books work is 90% the. philosophy and 10% me. And I try to. remind myself of that fact. Like I'm a. conduit for a thing that not only did I. not invent and can't be credited with, I'm not even good at. like my success in.

writing about stoicism is very different. than my. individual journey through stoic. philosophy as a human being and I try to. remind myself of that. >> Do you consider yourself a stoic? >> Yeah, I mean this is the philosophy that. I am interested in that I am trying to. apply in my life. Do I call myself a. stoic? I mean, I would say I am an an. aspiring stoic. Like, I I I would. certainly not uh claim to have attained. any kind of enlightenment or mastery of.

the stuff. Like, in fact, the reason. that I'm so driven to write about it and. talk about it is cuz it's like. >> it's really hard and I I really struggle. with it. So I try to remind myself that. like like when someone someone comes to. me and says like hey your books changed. my life they help you know uh or they. say stoism changed my life it got me. through cancer whatever it is I go yeah. it worked for me too like like we're.

we're on the same journey like what it's. what what what they think um is as is my. books is really like the philosophy. that I am also a student of. If that. makes sense. >> It does make sense. >> But it it's like, you know, when um when. they interview athletes like in the. in in the locker room after like a big. game and they're like, you know, all. glory to God. I think they mean that and. I think that's important. I also think.

that's like a really important. professional adaptation. Like if if. LeBron James or Kobe Bryan or or whoever. is like, "Fuck yeah, that was all. [ __ ] me." You know, like I'm the. greatest. Uh. that's bad. Like that's bad for future. performance. It's better. >> it's better to credit. And I don't just. mean like from a public relation. standpoint, like you have to mean it. Like if it's false modesty, it's a pro.

It's you might as well just own it. Um. but if you're like no this was the team. this was the training this is the. tradition like. you are. you are. that is the that is the right and the. healthy way to think about it first off. cuz it's true and second because it's. not good for you to put that on. >> and. credit yourself for things that.

>> why is it not good. >> Well, I think as I said, first off, it's. not it's not good cuz it's not true, right? Like everything is a team sport, right? And second, because it breeds. complacency and entitlement and um. if it if it's not a little scary to you. and it's not a little hard and you're. not uh. you're not questioning your ability to. do it, you're probably going in the. opposite direction. like you're you're.

you're um. it should be getting it should always. stay challenging and hard or or else. it's like you know you're lifting. weights when it becomes easy. you grew you grew the muscles and you. you you need to crank the thing up. >> Mhm. Mhm. Makes sense. >> [clears throat]. >> Let's move into, [sighs]. how do I word this? People that have.

experienced death or been close to death. or I guess not experienced death, but. have been around death. People that have. killed, people that have seen war, people that have been around death a lot. >> and and kind of. knowing when to act, when to let things. go, that kind of stuff. I mean, you have. a lot to say on that. I mean, I'd be I'. I'd be curious your opinion. I mean, when when you experience how fragile.

life is, does it turn down the volume on stuff. for you. >> for a little bit? >> Yeah. Then it creeps back. >> And then it creeps back. >> Yeah. >> I liked everything I was reading and. then I I did I compared it to myself and. I was like, you know, a lot of this. stuff bleeds back. Yeah. And then and. then you get you know in my life journey. in my previous life it was you know. there was constant oh you're humbled. again up you're humbled again you're.

humbled again somebody died somebody. died we killed somebody somebody you. know and and so there's that constant. reminder and you live in that you know. pretty regularly then I left. >> and I'm not around it anymore and things. that maybe don't matter or shouldn't. matter or [clears throat]. uh they creep back in and they they. >> they they seem like a bigger deal than. they are and then. >> I go into my revenge planning or you. know what I mean and and it just it I'm.

just being honest. It [ __ ] creeps. back in and it creeps back in faster. than you would think. >> Yeah. A friend of mine is in martial. arts was telling me that it's like. sweeping the floor. You don't sweep it. once and it's clean forever. It's a. constant process of of sweeping. And I. think ego is that way. And I think uh. like the urgency of life is another one. Like. you go to the doctor and they're like, "Oh, I need to check that out." There's. that moment where you're like, "Oh [ __ ].

is this it?" You know, is this did it. just get serious? Or you know, you were. talking to a friend on Friday and then. you find out over the weekend they died. or um you know, natural disaster, you know, or whatever. anything that happens and and suddenly. you're like, "Oh, I forgot. >> we're mortal.". >> Yeah. >> Um that's this the stoic practice is. momentomory like remember you are. mortal. Um but it it it has to be an. active meditation because like we all.

know objectively that we're all going to. die. Like every every person who's ever. lived has has has. eventually died. Um there's there's no. way out alive. And um we know that. although on average you know this is. about how long you have um. people die before. >> nothing they should all all the time. >> the healthiest people in the world. dropped out of a heart attack. The.

greatest people in the world get you. know murdered for the money in their. wallet obviously of wars and natural. disasters. Um, it happens, but you know, then you get a little soft, a little. entitled, you drift away from that. urgency and and so yeah, to me it's like. an it's an active process of um. reminding yourself that yeah, tomorrow.

is is not certain. Um the future is is. not yours. One of the I think the most. powerful ideas from the stoics this. comes from Senica you know he says it's. wrong to think of death as something. that happens in the future like that. death is something we're moving towards. he says actually death is behind us he. says like um the time that passes. belongs to death so instead of thinking. like you live 80 years he says like.

you've died however many years you're. currently ely old. So like like I'm going to I turned uh 38. next 38 no 39 next month I don't. remember. Um but anyways like my. birthday I should look back and go this. is how many years I have died. What do I. have to show for that? not how many. years do I have left, but what have I. what do I have to show for the time? Because because how we spend our time is.

how we spend our life, >> right? And and so the idea of going. like, hey, >> oh, you know, I'm I don't like this, but. I'm going to do it until my kids grow up. or I'm going to do it, you know, for a. couple more years. I'm going to do it. till things settle down. like you know. we we tell ourselves like we make these. assumptions about the future. and really the only thing that's certain. is is now the thing you're you're paying. for with your life right now. And so.

that I do try to remind myself of that. that like um we don't. the choices we're making about our time. right now are the choices that matter. Mhm. >> The idea of working something you don't. like, deferring something you don't like. because what you really want to do is. play golf in your 70s is uh is is naive. and entitled. And so, by the way, is. just the basic procrastination of like, you know what, I think I'm going to I'm.

going to start that project next week. Like, if you're going to do it, you. should do it and you should start right. now. >> That to me is the what you take out of. the momentum where you practice. See, I. really struggle with this and and just. in my personal experience, every time. that I have been around death, thought I. was going to die, uh. there's only one thing that goes through. your mind, and that is that's your. family. >> Mhm. >> That's it. That's the It's not all your.

[ __ ]. >> Yeah. >> It's not all your accomplishments. It's. not what you've done at work. It's not. any of that. It's not how much [ __ ]. money you have. The only thing is like. [ __ ] you know, who's gonna watch out. for my family? >> Yeah. >> When I'm out of here. And uh and then. you know that the that creates the. fight, you know, to stay alive. But what you're what you're talking. about I and I still struggle with this. No matter how many times I thought I was. going to die or been around it or been.

close to it, I it's been I've had that constant. reminder like none of this [ __ ] matters. >> Yeah. The only thing that matters in my. head is my family. And [clears throat]. but then there's the preparation. You. know, I have to hit this financial. benchmark. I have to hit this. I have to. hit all these accomplishments or or. goals or whatever it may be to make the. future of of my life, my wife's life, my. kids' life hopefully.

easier in the future, which takes away. from living in the now because it's all. planning, right? >> Well, even more insidious, like at some. point you would give literally all of it. back for five more minutes of. >> time with them, right? And then here you. are [ __ ] doom scrolling on Twitter. with the five minutes that you have for. sure right now. Like you you would you. would you're going to look back and wish.

that you could have more of this and. what are you doing with it right now? You're wasting it. And that that to me. is what I take from it is like um I have. the thing that in the future will be. priceless and unattainable and I'm so. frivolous with it and I say yes to. things cuz I don't want to be rude to. someone. I get distracted because. something's happening in the world. I, you know, I get overwhelmed and I'm.

like, I I'm going to take a break, you. know, like like. and and you experience it in little like. already like if the little kids, you're. just like, dude, like a year ago, like. uh that's gone, right? like the these. periods are so fleeting and so short and. in the moment you want it you want like. the next thing you want to get out of. it. I can't wait till they walk. I can't. wait till they you know talk. I can't.

wait till they drive you. whatever it. is. And then actually when those moments. come, all you'll wish for is more of. what you wished away. in the moment because you were entitled. or short-tempered or frustrated or. whatever. Here at Shawn Ryan Show, research is a. big part of everything we do. We're. constantly digging through articles, reports, timelines, and background so we.

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Claude at claude.ai/srs. That's claude.ai/srs AI/SRS. and check out Claude Pro, which includes. access to all the features mentioned in. today's episode. Claude.ai/srs. >> How do you reset? Do you find yourself. going down those rabbit holes, too? >> Yeah, of course. I mean, I I try uh I. try to.

The good news about the present moment. is that you're always getting another. one until the moment that you don't. And. so, how to me how quickly can you get. like. [ __ ] I'm I'm throwing the phone down. Like, I'm stopping right now. Not like. tomorrow I'll do better, but like I'm. stopping right now. It's like how fast. can you get back to center? uh is is to me like the key the key. skill both as a parent and as a person. in this crazy modern world. Um.

but you know today was rough. Okay. How. do you do better tomorrow? And how do. you stop whatever the direction you're. going in that you you know you shouldn't. be going in and how quickly you can do. that? >> What are your indications? Do they come. from you? Do they come from your wife, your kids? >> Yeah. I mean, I feel like parenting is a. lot of uh after they go to bed, you're. like, "Man, what are we doing? Why did. it go this way?" You know, it's that. sort of debrief at night. Um to me,

that's that's, you know, and it's very rarely, um, man, we crushed it today. Like it's usually. like why did we try to squeeze one more. thing in? You [laughter] know, why did. why why did why did I. remember I was putting my son down for. bed the other night and uh you know, first off, can I have a little more iPad. time? Then I got to brush my teeth. Oh. no, now I got to go to the bathroom. again. Or oh no, no, I need water. Oh, I'm hungry even though I had dinner. twice. You know, all the stuff that he's. making up for uh you know, not going to.

bed. And uh then I finally he's like, "All right, we go in his room." And I'm. like, "All right, let's get in bed." And. he's like, "No, no, I'm sleeping on the. floor." And I go, "What? You're not. sleeping on the floor?" Like, and then. we just got in this huge You like, "What. do you mean? You never said I couldn't. sleep on the floor." We get in this. whole [ __ ] argument about why I. couldn't sleep on the floor. And then I. was finally like I was like, "Why do I. have an opinion about this?" You know, like sleep on the floor. I don't care. I. realized like I think in the moment it.

was like I didn't want him to sleep on. the floor cuz here's what I knew would. happen. He would sleep on the floor till. like the middle of the night and then. wake up and then he'd come in our room, you know, and I was like, I wanted. sleep, right? Like I I was extrapolating. what this means, what, you know, like. instead of like going like I don't care. where you fall asleep, uh I was thinking. about what it means if you sleep here or. there, right? And so anyways, um finally. I'm like I just re I realized I'd gotten. down that I was in a battle of wills. that like I had the power to end right.

then by saying sleep wherever you want. You know, if you want to sleep on this. teddy bear on the floor, like knock. yourself out. So anyways, he lays down. and uh just when I think he's fallen. asleep. and I go to leave, he goes, "I'm ready. to sleep in my bed now." And I go, "All. right, let's go." And he walks in and he. falls asleep in his bed. And it it was. such an illustrative one for me because. it was like it's like I know when it. started. It started when we walked into.

his room and he said, "I wanted to sleep. uh on the floor and I said no." And then. it ended with him realizing that he. didn't want to sleep on the floor. And. uh he would rather sleep in his bed. And. that whole argument, you know, where I. argued one thing and then I realized I. was wrong and then I changed. Like that. whole thing in the middle, it just. didn't [ __ ] need to happen, you know, like the whole like it it would have. worked itself out had I been.

uh a little more go with the flow about. something. And I think I what I took. from that what I've as a parent is just. like. I need I need to be more in the like. does this thing actually matter like why. am I thinking that this matters and I'm. thinking that it matters because I'm. thinking about what it means as opposed. to. that it means nothing.

>> right and that that I could save us both. a lot like I could save us both a lot of. trouble. And in fact, like not only did. it work itself out, but it worked itself. out except we also had a big argument in. the middle which has a a has a has a. cost to it, right? And so, look, I'm not. saying you do everything your kids want. and you let you know, it's you got King. Baby walking around, but um most of the. conf like when I think about the things. I had conflict with with my parents,

>> how many of those in retrospect were. significant in any way, you know, >> and how how many of those things are. they glad that they went to the. mattresses on? And and I I I I'm trying. to. I'm trying to get better at that. >> You're saying pick your battles. >> Totally. And and and by pick your. battles, I mean avoid 99.9% of the. battles because they don't [ __ ]. matter. >> So how do you guide them then?

>> I mean, now we're moving into. fatherhood. So yeah, >> how do I'm just cur how do you guide. them without. confrontation without discipline. disciplining them? >> Yeah. I mean, yeah, of course that's the. challenge is like. you're not creating this fantasy world. where they get to do whatever they want. whenever they want it, but at the same. time like like again, why do I care. whether you sleep on the floor or their. bed? There's no lesson in here. what it. what there actually is is me wondering.

about the consequences of this for me. and two um. my. desire for control right like you want. to do this and I want you to do this and. why am I going to let a six-year-old win. >> you know like most mo so like in a way. you think like oh I'm giving them. discipline I'm giving them structure. it's very helpful actually you're just. showing them like authority is arbitrary. and pointless this and you know should. be fought against it every like you're.

actually sending the exact opposite. lesson you want and again I'm saying. this all as someone who constantly. struggles with this so I'm not saying. this is something I'm good at it's it's. precisely the opposite but um I mean. look you teach your kids by example and. you teach your you you you. teach your kids often. uh in the moments when they are open to. being taught. because they've experienced some kind of.

consequence or uh uh for for a choice or. they've there is an opening because of. something that's happened uh for you to. actually insert that thing that bit of. wisdom or experience or or lesson or. whatever. That's kind of how I think. about it. >> Okay. I mean, you wrote a whole book on. Stoic fatherhood, correct? Well, I I did. a book I did a book called The Daily. Dad, which is just sort of Yeah. classical or ancient lessons like one. one a day. I think the problem with.

parenting books is like you're just. supposed to read this book and then just. be good. Like like I'm supposed to read. about some when my kid is 13 months. I'm. reading about how you teach things to a. 13-year-old. Like, I'm not going to. remember any of this. So, the idea of of. the Daily Dad is it's it's an email, too. That the Daily Dad email is just. one thought a day. It's I think to me. parenting is like a series of values and. lessons that you've got to be reminded. of over and over and over again. And. that that's kind of what I've tried to.

do with it. >> What are some of the most important ones. that stick out to you? >> [snorts]. >> Um, yeah, I think that the the. most important one I think is just how. fast this is all going and that you uh. every time I I cut my kids fingernails. or take them to get a haircut, I go like. that's that much life right there. That's that much uh of the brief window. that they live in my house, right? that.

uh that we get to do things together and. I I try to be always aware just as like. like momento my is uh about your own. mortality realizing that like I don't. have a 2-year-old anymore I my. three-year-old is dead and gone my. four-year-old is dead and gone like you. are cycling through those ages and they. will never be that thing again to me. that's like one of the ultimate. parenting lessons the other one uh my.

wife and I. related to that was like we were like do. we want to there was like some kids. concert or something we're thinking. about going and we're like but we got to. get in the car it's like a 30-minute. drive are they going to appreciate it. and it was just like how many more times. are they going to want to do this you. know um probably not that many more like. at some point there's the last time and. are we going to be glad that we stayed. at home and didn't do the thing or we. gonna be glad that we did the thing so. realizing that you only get so many. shots at these things I think is a is a.

big. um. that uh you are the voice that's going. to be in their head. And what is that. voice like? Is it a negative voice? Is a positive. voice? Bruce Springsteen talked about. how um we're going to be either. ancestors or ghosts to our children. Like an ancestor guides and a ghost. haunts. And what what kind of example. are you going to set? >> Good. I never thought of it like that. And it it's not just like what you say,

but also like is dad working on his. [ __ ] Is mom working on her [ __ ] Or are. they just foisting that stuff on you? And so. like thinking about. getting serious about the stuff that you. know you need to address, you know you. need to work on. I think that's one. And. then related to that, I think like I. have uh I've never lost my temper at my. kids. and then afterward been like, I'm. so glad I did that.

>> Yeah. >> Um, one of I have like on my phone, you. know, it cycles through like pictures of. my kids like as my home screen and one. of the things I'm always struck by is. like how little they were. Like I was real [ __ ] pissed at a very. small person. Like like it doesn't age. well. like the things you get upset. about, the things that you thought were. a big deal, as they get older and you. get a little better at this parenting. thing, I think that the disparity of them and.

you becomes more obvious. And um I'm like why did I like. like like. what do I give a [ __ ] about the backseat. of the car so much for [laughter] you. know or like you know you walk in and. he's drawn on the wall or you know. uh. broke something you know what where's. where's the car that my parents were.

really. concerned about me spilling [ __ ] my. McDonald's ketchup on like it's in a. it's in a [ __ ] cube somewhere. >> Yeah. >> Like it doesn't like it did not. ultimately affect the resale value of. said car. It did not teach me any. lessons about cleanly. Like it it was. just like a stupid argument that we had, right? Like and I I try to think about. that again. not good at it. But I try to.

go like where will this thing be in the. future? Am I going to care about it? >> You don't put importance on anything. >> Yeah. Yeah. Or I I I try to get better. at not the human or the thing. What do I. care more about? You know, like the the. marriage advice is like, do you want to. be right? You want to be married? you. know, um, do you do you want to have a. good relationship with your kids or do.

you want to get your way all the time? >> How do you know if you're a I mean, this. this is a really good way to put it. If. you're a positive or a negative in your. >> in your kids' mind. >> How do you gauge that? Um, to me I think. it comes down to to. like like like no no no parent is. perfect. Every every therapy session. ultimately ends up in all the ways that.

your parents could have done better or. whatever, right? But like you know. people say like, "Oh, my parents did the. best they could." I'm not sure that's. always true. And so like, are you. actually doing your best? Like that's to. me the question is like like I go, you. know, I'm I'm I'm doing my best. And I. go, am I? Cuz I feel like I try a lot. harder at other stuff. Like I'm not. saying parenting is easy, but I feel. like I do a lot more work evaluating. myself professionally. I bring in a lot. more help professionally.

I. I measure myself better professionally. And then a lot of times as a parent I'm. just winging it. And then and then then. I want to I want them to let me off the. hook and go, "Dad was doing his best.". Like I'm not sure that's true. And so. that that does kind of push me to try to. do better. >> Damn. It's like me. I'm like that. >> Yeah. Because look, and I think.

culturally for for men especially, right? like. your job was where you were supposed to. be like your best, where you prove. yourself. And then parenting was like an. afterthought. And. um the expectations were, you know, that. expression, the soft bigotry of low. expectations, that that's basically. dudes for all of human history when it.

comes to parenting. Um, and uh, like I don't know. I I want I want to do. better than that. >> What are the I mean, what are the steps. that you're taking that you're thinking. about taking that that that that create. a better balance? >> Yeah. I mean, I to me a big one is like, okay, so you're really good at what you. do, you're successful at it. Um. uh and then and then you think that that.

somehow like exempts you from having to. do [ __ ] at home, right? like. >> um. like obviously look managing your time. and delegating where you can but you're. like why am I assuming that like my wife. should make the school lunches. or there's this like they did this. interesting study of like schools where. like they needed something at home like.

like there's some problem at the school. right and the the the the. receptionist or the principal or. whatever had to call the parent. Like. what percentage of the time do they call. the dad? >> Probably a very small percentage. >> And there there's there's the assumption. of the person making the call and then. there's also the reality of like the. family like and um like I've worked. really hard and my wife and I like. whenever we hire like an assistant or we.

um we're like like we're like there's no. we're both the default parent. Like it's. not like call her if there's anything. important uh and then call Ryan if you. can't reach her, [laughter] you know? Like I I want to I want to make this a. thing that I. value and that like like I heard someone. say like your kids are not a distraction. from your work. They are your work. And.

that's easy to say, but like do your. what does your calendar say? You know, what does your division of household. labor say? >> Like your kid has a birthday. Are you. just showing up at the birthday party or. did you make planning decisions? You. know, did you make purchase decisions? Did you did it catch you off guard that. it was there? Like like there's just. there's just a uh an assumption. I think.

it's look, it's obviously better than. it's ever been before, but there is like. an assumption that like that's not like. the term for this is emotional labor. That's not emotional labor that the. father should have to do unless they're. like a single parent or you know, whatever. Um, and uh I'm not saying it. came easy and I'm not saying it came. voluntarily. I'm just saying like in my. marriage and in my family, my wife and I. have have tried to.

not do that. And it's been like I've had. to learn how to do a bunch of things. that I would not. I would not normally be inclined to do. uh or be good at. I've had to figure out. how to do. >> Man, it's it's just a. man, it's such a dichotomy, right? I. mean, I think about this all the time. I've. talked about this several times on the. show. I mean, we my wife and I have like.

this little bitty [ __ ] hunt cabin. that's it is like. >> looks like you can blow on it and fall. over. Yeah. >> You know, it's. it's it's all one room, you know, the. kitchen, the bathroom, it's all one. room. Yeah. And uh and and before my. kids were born, we would spend weekends. down there and just to we live out in. the I mean you we live out in the woods. >> You go down there, you're really out in. the woods. >> And that's [clears throat] the some of.

the happiest times I've had with my wife. is down there. Zero to there's no cell. reception, there's no internet, there's. nothing. And um. and I keep coming back to this which I. love doing this. >> but I'm happier. >> right. >> there. >> Mhm. >> No distractions. I'm in the moment. >> Sure. >> And you know and now um that that I'm. close to being able to just I could do. that. I could get rid I could sell.

>> Sure. >> the studio. I could do every I could get. rid of all of this. Sell it. it'd be. totally fine financially and actually. live that life where I'm 100% dedicated. to my family. >> Yeah. >> 100% of the time. >> Yeah. >> And knowing that I would probably be. happier. >> Yeah. >> I'm 99% sure I would be a happier. person, you know, if I if I put all the. even though I love doing this, you know, put all the world's distractions into.

just away from my life. >> But I still [ __ ] come back to this. >> Yeah. because I love it. And. and I also think about, you know, well, would it be better? Would it would it. would it realistically would it be. better for me to be there 100% of the. time for my for my wife and my two kids? And what kind of example is that setting. for my son? Because that's not how. society is set up. >> Yeah. I think it's it's an interesting. question. Is it better for them? >> Is it it's it's better for them right.

now? Is it better for their future? >> Yeah. because they're they're they're. going to hit a point where they're going. to have to provide for their family. Uh. it's unattract I personally think it's. unattractive for a woman to whether. whether he is a wealthy financially. wealthy man or not, a trust fund baby, you know, I don't think I don't think. women I don't think that's a real. attraction. >> Sure. >> You know, um. >> Yeah. >> to find in a in a partner. >> Sure. you know, and and so if he doesn't.

if he doesn't see me providing for the. family and and doing things that, in my. opinion, men should be doing as the as. the leader of the household, then what. what happens to him when when he comes. of age to find a wife and and have kids. and provide? >> Well, you don't have that example, then. what is that going to lead to? And he. may not ever find somebody if he doesn't. if he doesn't get that example. I I remember a couple weeks into the.

pandemic, my wife was like, "Please. never be home this much ever again," you. [laughter] know. Um, and like obviously. I had to do some work on like being. like, "Okay, I have I have to be I have. to become a more stable like chill. person because this this isn't this is a. currently operating in a way that's only. good in small doses, right?". >> That wasn't good. at the same time like.

to take the energy and the drives and. the competence and the mastery all the. stuff that you have and be like I'm. going to put all this at home you know I. think that's also how you get [ __ ]. stage parents and um you know uh sports. parents like. >> what are stage parents. >> I just mean like the parents that make. all facets of their existence their. family Right. And then all of a sudden. you're just channeling that energy.

>> at home. Like it's there's an intensity. and a and a and a an energy that has to. have a release valve. >> And I think work and impact like. that shouldn't all be on your family. like there there's a re we're we're. meant to go to go out and do things and. to figure things out and it's like so. you're just going to drive him to school. and then play golf all day like I'm not.

sure that's that's not thriving as a. human being either or setting a good. example either. So there's a tension. >> But yeah, I think one of the things that. bothers me and and I think we all delude. ourselves with it is we go like I do. this all for my family. It's like no you. don't. >> Mhm. >> You stopped needing to do this for your. family a long time ago. This is about. you. >> Right. And um. and that's not to say it's not about. them at all, but like.

you're a billionaire, dude. Like you're. not doing this for anybody. you're doing. this because there's never enough for. you. >> And so, um, it can be very easy to take. something selfish and make it seem like. it's selfless, >> justify it. >> Yeah. And so understanding the tension. between those two things and like what. I've tried to I I've tried to say and. work on a way that I can be really good. at what I do and keep it within.

some reasonable. hours boundaries. and and and systems like I to me like. what I'm working on like my I'm not. trying to be the sell the most books in. the world have the most impact in the. world or be the famous or any of I'm. trying to be really good at what I do. and be a really good parent. And that in. a way. that's actually a more difficult needle. to thread than just being.

all in one or all in the other. >> Mhm. [clears throat]. >> And I think it's important that we. understand that that's possible to do. like. the athletes that I admire or the. entrepreneurs that I admire or the. leaders that I admire are not the. maniacs, right? It's the ones who seem to be. reasonably welladjusted human beings. also, right? Like um sometimes you read.

about these like like this is my daily. routine, this is my system, this is how. so and so prepares in the offseason and. you're like well I'm sure that's all. really easy to do if you don't [ __ ]. see your family, you know, like if. you're a piece of [ __ ] that's easier. >> Y. >> um it's it's can you can you be in great. shape? Can you do what you do? Can you. perform at a high level and. do school drop off or um I don't know.

uh be involved and be be present when. you're around you know like um can can. you like that's the challenge for me. like it used to be like when I was. working on a book I was just an. all-consuming thing I don't just mean. the hours I just mean like I couldn't. turn it off and now I try to judge the. success on a book on like how how um. how not disruptive it is.

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and use code SRS. How do you I mean what are your. indicators for you that tell you if. you're leaning I. >> talking to you I doubt you lean too far. into family. It seems like you probably. lean too far into work. >> Yes. >> You know and so what are what are your. indicators that's that that let you. know? Is it a is it a personal guilt? Is. it a is it some the way your kids are. acting or communicating to you? Is it. your wife? What is what is what are your.

indicators? >> Yeah. I mean, look, just practically, I. try to measure like the stuff that I do. or I say yes to, I I measure it in. bedtimes. Like how many bedtimes I'm. going to miss for this thing? And like. one is a lot, two is usually too many, right? So I I try to I try to measure it. in bedtimes. So that's like that's kind. of my northstar like how physically is. this taking me away? yes or no. And. that's that's kind of how I judge like. the the stuff that comes my way. That. being said, that can be a way of fooling.

yourself, which is like you're there, but you're not really there. So, I try. to think about like, hey, how how is my. emotional state, my focus like am I am I. am I the reason that this is all. disregulated or am I the calming. presence? Right? And and I think too. often like I'm it's like I came home. amped. I came home worked up. I'm. stressed. I'm distracted. And you can.

like I think you can just feel the. energy in the family dynamic. And. um I want to be the solution, not the. problem. And I think I know I'm I'm not. taking care of the things I need to be. taken care of. and I'm not doing what. I'm supposed to be doing when I am. I'm the problem. You know, like like. if the three-year-old is upset cuz. they're a three-year-old, great. >> Mhm. >> If the three-year-old is upset because.

you snapped at them because you were. trying to play with them and check your. phone at the same time, you're the. problem. And so I I try to think about. that like how am I fitting into this. system, this this sort of wavelength as. opposed to I want to make it all about. me. >> Makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of. sense. >> And then you should have a a spouse and. a family dynamic, co-parent, whatever it. is for you, where they're like, "Dude, what was that?" you know, like like I.

think my wife and I talk a lot about. like like let's back each other up in. the moment, you know, um let's not throw. each other under the bus in front of the. kids, but like afterwards like yo, you. can't do that. Like, you know, you can't. do that. You saw you saw when you made. that choice, right? I think it goes both. directions, but like I think if if um. if if you're not making each other. better as parents, you're not you're not. doing your job. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, Steve Ranella's.

book. >> Yeah. >> about outdoor kids and then inside. world. I mean, there's so many studies that. talk about, you know, the more kids are. outside, the the the I mean, the the. percentage of them having depression. decreases dramatically. I mean, less. screen time, depression decreases. dramatically. You raising your kids on a farm. Yeah. Correct. My my son's in my youngest is.

in first grade and when he started in. August, it was the first time he ever. sat at a desk cuz he went he did. kindergarten and prek for several years. at an outdoor school. Like they would go. there was no buildings and they did it. outside rain or shine, you know, they. ate their lunch around a campfire and. they did all the stuff outside. >> That's awesome. >> And it was incredible. And. >> what's that kind of education called? I. think it's just called a it's like a. nature school or an outdoor school. I'm. guarantee you there's one around here.

Um and it was incredible and you know um. that that was a big big choice for us. And then um you know we like. one of our big things is like okay sure. screens are maybe maybe better parents. than us could exist in a screen. screenree household that we didn't that. ship has sailed but like we try to use. them to like how is that an entry point.

into a world that we we are by nature of. where we are financially and the freedom. we have. We I can show you that world, right? Like my my boys got really into this. podcast called Greeking Out. Um, which. is it's all about the Greek myths. It's. amazing. Uh, it's like 10 seasons. They. listen to every episode multiple times. And so like we went on a road trip. across Greece. We're going to Rome this. year. Like you get if they get.

interested in a thing like cuz they. watch a video about it, they hear about. it. like let's go experience that thing. in real life. Um so to me like one of. the most important skills you can have. in life is is first curiosity but then. second the ability to. take that curiosity to its natural. conclusion. Right? Like if you're. interested in something or you don't. know about something, do you have the.

skills to go figure it out? you know. like there are books about that there. are videos about that there are podcasts. about that there are places we can go. there are experts about this thing. there's AI right like how how are you to. to like to me I try to see the screen as. an entry point into the enormity of the. world and that it's like the algorithm. is exposing themselves to stuff and then. because they're interested in it like my.

job as a parent is to take them down. that rabbit hole. >> Okay. >> And so that's kind of how we think about. like learning and doing stuff. So I like. that. >> like, oh, we're going on this road trip. now, I guess. Like, you know, um or and. I'm I'm showing them stuff, right? It's. like like I showed my son this like. Saturday Night Live video and he thought. it was hilarious and then, you know, um. it's like, "Oh, you want to take an. improv class now? Done." you know, or. oh, did you actually know like Lauren.

Michael's papers are at a museum in. Austin? Let's go do that. So, like that. that idea of like they have that flicker. of interest or um. uh awareness of something, how do you. how do you take them down that rabbit. hole? >> So, they show interest and you. immediately act on it. >> Yeah. Yeah. and and like it's not. heavy-handed, but it's like, "Oh, there's so much more of that you don't. even know." And that's like that gets me.

excited, right? Because like sometimes. it's something I know a lot about and I. get to show you all the things that I. know about it and that I love about it. And then sometimes it's something I know. nothing about and we get to go learn. about that together. >> Do you introduce things to them as well? >> Yeah. Yeah. You're It's like you're. always like, "Um, what about this? What about that?". And you know, you don't have a great hit. rate, but when you when when it when it. um when it lights them up, that's like. the best. Like music, movies.

Um. >> Yeah. >> Nice. Let's talk. I'm dying to talk. about this. >> All right. Churchill. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> I didn't grow up with money. >> Yeah. was never around it, you know, and uh. now I find myself. making a pretty decent amount. >> Yeah. >> And.

I don't know where to look to, you know, how do you raise kids with that? Keep. them humble. Keep them from being. entitled. Keep them from idolizing [ __ ]. >> Yeah. >> [ __ ] cars, watches, whatever. You. know, the the. >> Yeah. luxury items or you know. how do you do it? >> I don't know. And and you don't know. whether. >> you see all these people that have grown. up with it. >> and. a lot of times I don't like the way they.

turn out. You know, I I don't wish that. for my kids. I'll say that. >> And you don't know if you're doing a. good job until it's like. too late. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. No, I think I think it's the thing. that keeps parents up at night. Um, I. remember I was talking to Matthew. McConna one time and he said, you know, there were a lot of things when he was a. kid where it was like we can't. But then you find yourself in a position. as a parents very different and it's. like we're not going to like.

we don't do that. that that ch like in a. way it's not easier because it's it's. hard to not have enough but. it takes the choice out of things right. like. >> um. you know and I think I think that not to. idealize the past but like there used to. be. society.

was the the the. the income inequality was less. Like. we've never existed with this level of. income inequality in this sort of. stratified world, right? Where it's. like, >> okay, now it used to be there was first. class and uh economy on an airplane. Now, not only are these different levels. on an airplane, but there's like private. and um the people who are flying private.

are living in a very different world. than the people who are not. And how do. you. how do you. stay in reality I think is like the. first the first challenge. Um especially. as you know people get to levels where. you know it's it's inconsequential to. them like what this costs or that costs. Um.

you you have to create some artificial. boundaries and rules I think. Um. >> I just I don't know. It's [ __ ] tough, man, because they have like you could. starve them from all of that as a parent. >> and you can you can start but then on. the other hand eventually they're going. to be in it and if they don't know how. to act and when they're around it, then I also think you're doing them a.

disservice. And so they really need to. know how to operate in both worlds in in. my opinion. How do you get them to operate in both. worlds without becoming a self-entitled, selfish piece of [ __ ] I mean, for lack. of better word. >> Look, it's it's a timeless ch it's a. timeless challenge. Plutarch, one of the. great biographers of antiquity, was. talking about how parents will spend a. lot of time on their will trying to. create an estate. Who's going to manage. the estate? Who's going to be the.

guardians? How much money do they get? You know, spend a lot of time thinking. about that. and not enough time thinking. about how do I raise a person with. enough character that like they can. handle it, right? Like instead of being. like, "Oh, we're creating a trust fund. and the trust fund gives them this much. per year which is just enough and not. too many." It's like you could also just. raise spend your time trying to raise a. child who has good values and a good. work ethic and is doesn't derive their.

value from luxury goods, right? Um, so I. think it's the it's the it's a it's a. challenge. Certainly, again, nothing. close to the challenge of being a single. mother on food stamps. >> trying to raise three kids or whatever, but it it comes with its own challenges. And. um ultimately I think we have to model. it. And then I think we have to.

like the most valuable gift you can give. your kid is not you know a a huge. estate. It's like the ability to. uh. like have the thing that lights them up. like that they like doing that like they. want to spend their life doing. Like. Robert Green, my mentor, he calls this. your life's task. What is your life's. task? Like what were you put here to do? And.

I think our job as parents is to help. our kids find that thing to create an. environment where they can find that. thing and be supported and loved in. pursuing that thing. Um, you know, it's. not to make them a doctor or a lawyer or. to inherit the family business. It's to. find the thing that if they didn't do, not only would they be unhappy, but the. world would be worse off for them not. doing it. >> Mhm. I mean, but I I want to say. something, too, just for the audience. I. mean, I don't want to sound like a.

couple of [ __ ] elitists, >> you know, sitting up here talking about. this, but this is this is cuz we're not. even talking about what we have, what we. don't have. We're just anybody who finds. themsself in a position. that they are doing better than than. their parents did, this applies to them. Whether. you know what I mean? Look, your average. American has a a level of choice and.

privilege that a struggling family. almost anywhere else in the world is not. having to think about. So, so this is. privilege, but in a in a way that we're. all privileged and there's just. different degrees of it. >> But yeah, how do you how do you how do. you raise a kid who is resilient, who is. in like stoicism to me is about being in. control of yourself, being master of. yourself. And that's what we're trying. like you're trying to raise kids who can. go through life uh and and are not going. to be as we said don't say ew a lot.

don't throw in the towel a lot don't. expect other people to solve their. problems for them. Um how do you raise. self-sufficient resilient kids? That's. the challenge of our time. And yet it's. also the most timeless challenge there. is every parent for all time has had to. deal with that in some form or another. [snorts] And. I think um. I I don't think there's one thing you. do. I think it's a it's a it's a handful. of things.

>> Do you think it's how you act? I mean. the things that I've learned and my kids. are very young. My oldest is uh close to. five. But, you know, I think I think it. is. I really am starting to think it's. the only thing that really matters is. the example that you set for them. >> Yeah. >> So, if you idolize your [ __ ]. they're going to idolize their [ __ ] If. you get pissed [clears throat] because. they [ __ ] scratch your car, break a.

window, um, whatever, break a vase, anything, you. know, and you you overreact. and idolize the thing, >> that's going to be passed on. >> Yeah. >> Same with people, you know, they're. they're going to look to see how you. treat people. All people. Yeah. not. people you look up to and people that. you think that you're above, all people. And.

you that they're going to take that in. and and. hopefully the you know the the financial. aspect, it doesn't have any relevance if. you if you lead by example. >> Yeah. Like they they say your kids uh. kids don't always listen, but they're. always watching. And like a way to think. about it is like let's say you never. gave them a single piece of advice. Like. you never told your kids do this, don't. do that. This is important, that's not. important, this is what we believe,

these are our values. What do you think they would deduce. about what you think about those things. from the life that you lead? like like. if you were tried in court, would you be. convicted of those beliefs from your. actions? I think that's like, you know, I think about this, it's like, okay, so. I write about stoicism, but if if I. didn't, would my kids say that that's. what I. >> believe in or care about? Would that.

would that be how they would describe. me? You know, and that that like that's. the message that ultimately matters. Like what are you. what are you saying with your your deeds. not your words and. you say this matters and this doesn't. matter and then you know. your your uh. your decisions tell a very different. story. Um I like to say like your you.

know your calendar doesn't lie. >> Yeah. [snorts]. Um, and neither. neither ultimately does uh does your you. know your sure behavior at home. >> Do you ever ask your kids for input. >> on how you're doing? >> Oh, like what can I do better? Yeah. All. the time. >> Do you really? >> Yeah. >> What do they say? >> They're usually like, "Can I You should. give us our iPads more." Stuff like. that. Um, I I I think it's it's a lot to ask.

them to be able to I think when they're. they're older, they're going to be. better at at being able to verbalize. like what um what they need more of and. what they need less of. Um, but uh. I do try to think like, hey, like why. isn't this working? you know, uh I try. to I like why if this isn't having the. effect that I want it to have, I need to. do something differently instead of. insisting over and over again that this. is how it should go. This is, you know,

this is what I think. But I don't know, it's it's it's a it's. a constant [ __ ] challenge. >> Yeah. And one of one of the um one of. the things uh. I heard someone say that was helpful to. me is like like uh the bad parents. aren't thinking about whether they're. doing a good job or not, you know. So. the fact that it is a challenge and that. you are thinking about it and that. you're you know how are we doing here?

Where could we do better? I'm worried. about this. Like that's not. that already puts you in in somewhat. elite. uh. company. >> You're a better parent by Yeah. You're. you're in the better parent category. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, I a lot of. people have kids. Not everyone's a. parent. >> Yeah. >> And the decision to be like, "Hey, I'm. going to I'm going to take this thing. seriously. I'm going to It's not this. side hustle that I have. It's like my.

main thing. It's the main reason I'm. here." Mhm. >> Um, and uh, I'm going to I'm going to. work at this like I work at anything. else, which means I'm going to take it. seriously, which means I'm going to ask. for advice, which means I'm going to. actually look at how it's going and the. results. Um, and then I'm going to be. willing to change and try try it. differently. I'm not just going to go, well, my parents did it this way, or. well, this feels right to me. >> Mhm. But actually be willing to.

change and take feedback is uh not just. change and take feedback. I think I. think also apologize. Like there are things that. 30 years later if my parents apologized. for it would mean a lot to me, right? Like uh I don't know about you, but like. if my parents were like, "Hey, you know. what? When you were a teenager, you. really clearly needed this and we didn't. do that for you." And I bet that was. hard and like we've thought about it. more and like we wish we' done it.

differently. I'd be like, "Oh my god.". Right? So, it's never too late, right? Do you. apologize? How how quickly can you do it now, though? Like, like, can I go, "Hey, like. the next day, hey, I don't know why I. picked this fight with you about you. wanted to sleep on the floor. It doesn't. matter to me. I just love that you still. let me put you down. And uh picking a fight was not how I. wanted it to go, but I did. And uh I.

don't want to do that. I'm sorry. Um. I mean, I don't know about you, but I. didn't get apologized too much when I. was a kid. Um and and you know, maybe. some people think that's weak or soft or. or whatever. To me, I'm trying to get. better. And I do I'm not going to get. better if I'm not taking accountability. and responsibility for when I don't do. it the way that I want to do it. >> I do it especially about the phone. >> Yeah. >> I feel so [ __ ] guilty.

and I keep doing it over and over and. over again. >> Yeah. >> But I you know I'm like I I do I just I. have to do it. >> Yeah. Yeah, cuz I think that once again. a lead by example because it also. teaches them like they need to be able. to do that too. >> or just to see you struggle with like. you're like hey this is a thing I have. to use but I use it way more than I have. to and I want to use it less. So here's.

where I want to be and here's where I am. and here's your dad trying to get there. Um, to me that's a a much more. relatable, a much more inspiring, and. ultimately much more practical. perception of your parents than mom and. dad are perfect. Their word is law. Like, cuz kids know that's not true. They sense the [ __ ]. >> and they resent it. And it it undermines. it undermines. their connection and their belief in.

you. And so, yeah, I try to. I try to to own that [ __ ] when I can and. I try to be I try to be clear about the. stuff that I'm working on and the stuff. that I'm trying to get better at. >> Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm doing a um I. got so much out of my first psychedelics. uh I gain treatment. I'm doing it again. um in the in the in the foreseeable. future.

And what I'm really hoping I get out of. it is. some kind of perspective of what my kids. think of me. >> Oh, interesting. >> I really want to see what I look like. through their lens. >> Yeah. >> And that's probably going to be a hard. thing to see, but um yeah, I uh I just. want to I I want to improve and uh I. just I really want to see that. I saw. this video of uh this billionaire and uh.

someone was like, you know, what's it. like to have a billion dollars or what's. it like to be rich? And he was like, rich isn't having a billion dollars. Rich is having kids who want to come. home for the holidays. >> And I I think it's it's it's really. important that you sort of define what. success is, right? Like people go, "Oh, you only get 18 summers with your kids.". And it's like legally, but like you meet families and they. spend a lot of time together [laughter].

and you're like, "Oh, that's a whole different thing. I didn't. know we could do that." You know, I. didn't know that was something we could. work towards. And so thinking about like. what the goal is. And so the goal is not. to have the shoes nicely lined up by the. back door. The shoe the the goal is not. to have I remember I was talking to. someone once. She was she's in her 90s. and she's like, "People used to come. over and be like, "It doesn't look like. you have kids." And she was like, "I. took that as a compliment." And I.

I don't She's like, "I don't know how I. could have possibly been so wrong." She. was like, "Your house should look like. you have kids. Your life you have kids. Why? What are you doing?" So, like the. goal is to have is to not have these. people for 18 years and then eject them. and go back to your selfish life. like. you started a family, the goal is to. have the family. >> Yeah. >> In the future. And so remembering that. running the things through the lens of. that again it doesn't mean giving them.

whatever they want whenever they want it. because that is also at odds with that. I would also say though like if you're a. billionaire you can go visit your kids. for the holidays. You know they don't. need to come home. But the point is they. should want they should want to come. home, right? like like you should the. success here is. uh that. that when the authority ends. the relationship is still there. >> Yeah. >> And I think uh people lose sight of.

that. >> I've never heard it like that. That's really good. Let's talk about. speed reading. >> Speed reading is a scam. Well, how do I. read faster? >> I don't know. It's I think it's. illustrative that that's what you want. to do. You're not like how how do I eat. food faster? Is there a way to have sex. faster? Like the point is stuff that's. good. You want it you want it to take. how long it's supposed to take. So, I. don't know why we want to read faster.

Like if the question is how do I read. more? I got lots of answers to that. question. But I don't think we should. try to read faster, right? Like I would. say I read at a medium speed. I just. spend a lot of time reading and I spend. a lot of time reading because. it's worth doing. It's enjoyable to do. and also it's magic. The founding the. founding of stoicism has a story about. this. um Zeno, founder of Stoism,

he visits the oracle at Deli, uh the. famous oracle, and and he asks what the. secret to the good life is, and he's. told that um. wisdom comes when we begin to have. conversations with the dead. And it's only later at a bookstore that. he realizes that that that's what books. are. It's a way to talk to people who. are dead. um that we can converse with Marcus. Reelius through meditations, that we can read the speeches of.

Churchill, that we can read, you know, the poems of Emily Dickinson, that uh. you know, we can read great novels, the campaigns of the greats. Um. it's magic. It's [ __ ] time travel. like here is someone who's no longer. with us. transporting us to them, them to us, breaking down. You know,

there's a there's a famous poem that. says uh you know, uh books are. door-shaped like they're they're portals. to another world. And and so anyways, the point is reading is spectacular. Like like for $15 or $20 or [ __ ] free. at the library that you can have access. to. the brain of Julius Caesar or Napoleon, you know, you can read from Stockdale, you can read from Marcus Aurelius, you. can read from Epictitus, you can read. from Frederick Douglas, you can read.

from Abraham Lincoln. You know, this is. incredible. like like the the the amount. of wisdom and hard one experience inside. the pages of the book is an incredible. thing and like most people are like nah. I'd like to I'd like to learn by trial. and error or they're like eh I don't. know a lot of good stuff on Instagram. too uh right like it's it's ridiculous. um Toltoy talked about like. you can you can.

converse with the wisest people who ever. lived and and you choose not to. So I. think first and foremost understanding. what reading allows you to do makes the. ROI of it much clearer. Is it also. entertaining and fun and relaxing? Sure. But it's an incredible thing that we. have contained in these pages. Um. the other thing is is um like you got to. make time for it. Like there's no. there's no shortcut. Like you got to do.

it. You got to make time for it. And if. I looked at your screen time app, I. promise you I could find the time. You. know, like you have the time, you're. just not spending it. And this is for. all of us. Like I could read more. I. just get distracted by things. And so. one of the reasons I like carry a. physical book with me everywhere is like. when I sit down cuz I'm a little early. or someone's late or I have a few. minutes between here or there, like I. want to read a book. I don't want to go. into social media. I don't want to go.

into work. like I want to read. Um, and. I see that as part of my job. Like it's. it's crazy. Like some of my best ideas, some of the biggest successes I've had. as an entrepreneur, but also as an. employee. It came from things I read in. books. But for some reason, if someone had come. into my office and I was sitting in a. chair like this reading, they'd be like, "I don't pay you to do this." Yet, if I. was sitting at my computer monitor. checking ESPN, they'd have no idea. And. so, so it's it's I think we we need to.

do a better job understanding that. reading is not just work like has a. [snorts] work uh benefit, but it's like. some of the best single best way you. could spend your time. And uh I know. that's my case for reading. >> Right on, man. Well, Ryan, I know you. got a flight to catch, but this was. >> amazing. >> This was an awesome conversation. I'd. love to have you back at some point. We. >> I would be honored. We do have a hot. question. I almost forgot. One last. thing. Hot question. Right.

>> Audie Murphy tried to enlist in the. Marines at 17. They rejected him for. being too small. The paratroopers. rejected him, too. He finally got into. the Army by gaining weight before the. physical 55, 112 lb. He went on to win. every US combat decoration for valor, including the Medal of Honor. 28 medals. total. the most decorated American. soldier in history. He came home, became. a movie star, and was haunted by PTSD.

for the rest of his life. Slept with a. loaded pistol under his pillow, got. addicted to sleeping pills, locked. himself in a hotel room, and kicked it. cold turkey. And then he did something nobody at his. level was doing in the 1960s. He went. public, talked openly about combat. trauma, demanded the VA take it. seriously, died in a plane crash at age. 45. Here's the question. Tell me about. Audi Murphy. What does the smallest,

quietest guy in the room becoming the. most decorated soldier in American. history tell us about what real. toughness actually looks like? >> Well, they told us quite a bit about. Audi Murphy right there. Just an. incredible human being, an incredible. American. Uh he has a a memoir called To. Helen Back which uh I should have. brought you because it's an amazing. book, one of the great memoirs of the. 20th century. I'll tell you one little. story about Audi Murphy that all those. accomplishments are incredibly. impressive. Um one of the ones he.

doesn't get enough credit for that I. think in in a in a way is it's not. harder, but it's rare is um so he. becomes a movie star, country musician, right? And um. uh he's asked to do a bunch of. endorsements and uh he turns down all. drug uh sorry all cigarette and alcohol. endorsements because he doesn't want to. model that for kids. And so like I just. I just think like he did a lot of feats.

of discipline and a lot of feats of. courage. Saying no to money is a thing. that a lot of brave and powerful people. have found it hard to do. >> Um and uh I just I I in a way that's. like there's physical courage and then. there's moral courage. And the moral. courage to say, "Hey, I'm not going to. do that. It doesn't feel right to me.". Is courage that we don't celebrate. enough. We don't we don't give out. medals for that kind of courage. And. then the courage to speak out and to to.

speak honestly about what you're. struggling with, like vulnerability, like, "Hey, I'm not okay. Hey, even. though I've capable of all these things, this thing is kicking my ass. I'm. struggling with this thing." Again, that's another form of courage that that. we don't we don't celebrate enough and. we don't hold up enough. Uh and and it's. it's uh.

and we wonder why it's, you know, we. wonder why it's rare and and um. it it uh. it moves me just just as much. He's an. incredible person and uh you you read. some of those Medal of Honor citations. for those guys and you're just it's just. absolutely. unreal, right? >> Yep. Yep. There's a followup here. I think. you're going to like this.

>> What does this story say to every. influencer right now selling alpha male. alpha male stoicism? >> Yeah. Uh, I, uh, Andrew Tate is a [ __ ]. abuser of women, uh, shitty person, uh, a sex trafficker, and the idea that like that's who you. should be taking life advice from is.

insane, right? Like, stoicism is not a. recipe for making you a better. sociopath. It is not um this pick and. choose thing where you take a couple uh. motivational quotes and then you know. you put it up next to a AI generation AI. generated uh picture of Marcus Curelius. with a 12-pack and you're like I get it. right. It's a it's a philosophy and it's. a philosophy built around virtue. And. the the the four virtues of stoicism,

courage, essential, discipline, essential, wisdom, essential, but the. fourth is justice. That's ethics. That's. the standards you hold yourself to. That's your contribution to society, to. the world. And um. you none of the other virtues are of any. worth if not. balanced out by or in fact directed at. justice, right? Like um.

courage on the battlefield, sure, very. impressive. But what if you're fighting. a horrible war? Like I was in stayed in. Franklin uh and you know walked past the. Confederate statue and uh you know it. says uh there have never been braver men. or a cause more honorable. It's like I. can think of quite a few causes more. honorable like other than Nazism. It was. literally the worst cause. Like.

literally the worst cause to ever go to. war for. Um now it's complicated and a. lot [clears throat] of the men were. drafted. Most of them didn't own slaves. They were told a bunch of lies by the. slave powers. But let's not lie to. ourselves about what that heroism was. used for. >> and what what it would have looked like. had it triumphed. Like the world would. have been a worse place. Like they their. in fact their virtue that military valor. was weaponized and.

spent in the wrong way in for the wrong. cause. Right. And so there's no like. that's that's ultimately what philosophy. is designed to help us wrestle with. It's like what's right and wrong? What. do we owe other people? Are we making. the world a better or worse place? And. uh look, if if the ideas of masculinity. and toughness and resilience, if that's. what if that's what initially attracts.

you to stoicism, awesome, right? You. just you just can't stop there. And I. think probably you see this in your line. of work like the recruiting poster is is. what gets the people in the door, right? But ultimately you got to buy into the. values and the cause larger than. yourself. And that it. if that's not you, that's actually like. like the most dangerous person because.

um like the violence and the power and. the strength, all that stuff is like is. dangerous if if not if not. >> moderated by. >> and controlled by this ethical compass. It can become very addictive. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. Everyone should read uh To Helen Back by. Audi Murphy. Just like an incredible an.

incredible book. >> Right on. >> Yeah. >> Well, Ryan, >> dude, thank you. >> Thank you, man. This was awesome. This. was awesome. I I really appreciate you. coming. Had a great time. I hope you. come back. >> Yeah. Sweet. Cheers. [music]. No matter where you're watching the.

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