Rick Doblin - MDMA Psychedelic Assisted Therapy | SRS #97

originally this episode aired roughly 9. months ago shortly after it aired just a. couple of hours I had the episode. pulled because of some values that. didn't align with my own and that was. selfish to me and I shouldn't have done. that let me explain. why last week some new developments came. from psychedelic therapy um some new.

light and it happened to be one of my. best. friends and this. individual has been blown up in. Afghanistan one of the worst car bombs. that I've actually seen somebody. survive and then later on in life he was. shot in the head most of you if probably. seen this episode he's been on the show. before I'm not going to mention any. names now yet but after he was shot in.

the. head he survived that by the way. obviously he couldn't go anywhere. without a. cane because he is dizzy all the. time he can't go out into sunlight. without sunglasses because light. sensitivity is so bad after after his.

traumatic brain. injury he spends about half of his week. in bed because he's unable to get out. because the traumatic brain injury is so. bad and I've have been trying to talk. him into getting some type of. psychedelic therapy for. years and he finally did it and he went. to Trevor. Miller from ambo Life Sciences I've. talked about it several times on the. show guys doing amazing work well my.

best friend went down there for one week. did an Iain treatment and a 5mo DMT. treatment and when he left he left his. Cane there because he said he no longer. needs it the dizziness vertigo is. completely. gone he was able to go outside without. sunglasses.

because the light sensitivity is. gone and as of right. now his. brain seems to be damn near healed and. um when he told me that I actually burst. out into tears cuz I was so happy for. him and so the point I'm getting at. is this stuff is helping.

people and I think there is a lot of. people that don't want this stuff to see. the light of. day and it was wrong of me to pull this. episode because it could have helped. people and it's going to help. people if you're struggling with things. that this therapy could help I suggest. you look into it because it is helping.

thousands of people get the life that. they once had. back and so I want to personally. say Rick. doblin I apologize for pulling this. episode that was selfish of me and. you're doing great things in the world. and I hope you continue to do so and. with that being said ladies and. gentlemen without without further Ado.

please welcome one of the. leading Pioneers in the. Psychedelic assistant therapy. Space Mr Rick doblin to the Shawn Ryan. Show Rick. doblin hello Sean welcome to the Sha. Ryan Show yes I'm so glad you like to do. these things in person too because it is. much better that way I won't do it any. other way I love it in person i' got to.

meet everybody and we'll find out why we. do it in person here in a minute but. just a brief introduction Rick doblin. PhD just going to go through some of. your uh some of the Fantastic stuff. you've done throughout the years so. you're the founder and executive. director of multidisciplinary action. Association for psychedelic studies maps. which you founded in. 1986 you received your doctorate in. public policy from Harvard ard's Kennedy.

School of government where you wrote. your dissertation on the regulation of. medical uses of psychedelics and. marijuana mm your Master's thesis was on. a survey of oncologists about smoked. marijuana versus oral THC pill in nausea. control for cancer patients yeah you. also conducted a 34e follow-up study. with Timothy L's Concord Prison. Experiment you studied with Dr tell me. if I butcher this.

stanislav gra you did it that's great. he's a Czech psychiatrist who actually. when the Russians moved into. Czechoslovakia in ' 68 he fled and then. he became in charge of psychedelic. research at Johns Hopkins interesting. interesting and were among the first to. be certified as a holotropic breath work. practitioner yeah so it's astonishing. that just by hyperventilating you can. get into states of mind that are similar. to psychedelics and so when psychedelics.

were. criminalized in the Controlled. Substances Act in 1970 and then we wiped. out research Stan um tried to think. about how can he go forward when all the. tools that he had were illegal and then. he studied breathing and he realized. that if you do this. hyperventilation in a certain kind of a. way in an emotionally evocative way it. feels kind of like you're tripping and. things come up from the surface and the. beauty of it is what it real what it. indicates is that this materials that.

happen when we take ibigan or take LSD. and the the things that come to our mind. they don't come from the drug they come. from us and that you can do the same. thing with breathing that it's Alters. your Chemistry it Alters the way our. brain is working and but these are. endogenous to us and I think the breath. work is a tool that really demonstrates. that it's also difficult in the sense. that you have to hyperventilate in order. to weaken your defenses and then when. difficult material comes up often and. you have to keep breathing so it's.

easier in a way to just take a drug that. does it then you don't have to think. about triggering yourself now you just. you know need to open up to what's. coming but I think Stan was really the. through line when psychedelics were. criminalized up until sort of the. beginnings of the Psychedelic. Renaissance uh several decades later. when the FDA started permitting. psychedelic research so the breath work. attracted most of the people that do all. U were interested in psychedelics this.

was another tool and many of the early. psychedelic researchers had been trained. by Stan including myself and really do. you do that a lot the breath work no I'd. rather take a. drug. okay is it a lot of breath holds or no. no it's just hyperventilation so the. beautiful thing about what Stan has done. with his wife Christina at the time they. developed it now he's M but um what what. he realized is that there's all sorts of. breathing techniques.

and you could you know say breathe a. certain number of times in this nostril. that nostril breathe out of your nose. breathe into your no all these different. ways but the basic aspect of holotropic. breath work is you just breathe faster. and deeper and find your own rhythm in. that way and that's that's all people. need so he didn't complicate it with. things it was just he he he took it down. to the essence and if you just breathe. faster and deeper it changes the. chemistry in your brain and it makes it. so that you're more open to emotions and.

memories that is fascinating yeah a lot. of times when people are having a panic. reaction they're hyperventilating and he. said the the the classic approach in. Psychiatry or in psychiatric emergency. rooms is when people are. hyperventilating is you try to stop it. you you try to help them calm down in a. way but the approach that Stan took is. let it emerge even bigger you know that. that things are coming to the surface. you're hyperventilating because you're. dealing with these emotions they're. getting stronger and instead of trying.

to control symptoms what Stan said if. you let it go you will get to the root. causes and you'll be able to resolve. some of the core. issues instead of just masking it with. either you know ssris or other. psychiatric medicine so that was his big. Insight is that this um hyperventilation. is a sign of somebody having a panic. reaction but the solution is not to to. suppress it but to let it fully flower. and then stad has this beautiful.

expression which is um the full. expression of an emotion is the funeral. P of that emotion okay and and what he. means by that is that if you can like. even if a lot of times I don't know if. this happened to you during your iig TR. but sometimes you feel like it's going. to last forever and it'll never end and. you're stuck you know so I had moments. like that in my I trip and so what Stan. is saying is letting yourself feel stuck. rather than rushing to run away from.

being stuck is the way to get unstuck if. you surrender to being stuck the the. everything's in motion and you know the. Stars everything's in motion and if you. fully open up to the. moment then it will change and the. resistance is what keeps things there so. a lot of times what PTSD is for people. is that there's difficult memories. there's difficult emotions and they they. feel overwhelming.

but you never can get away from him you. know and and so the the ironically in a. way the solution is to let it grow. bigger and fully accept it and then it. will change so this idea that the full. experience of an emotion is the funeral. P of that emotion it's it's a it's part. of the the core philosophy of how we do. psychedelic Psychotherapy is to open up. to things that is fascinating that's I. would love to talk about that later too. yeah. your professional goal is to help.

develop legal context for the beneficial. uses of psychedelics and marijuana. primarily as prescription medicines but. also for personal growth for otherwise. healthy people and eventually to become. a legalized a legally licensed. psychedelic therapist yes so that was my. goal when I was 18 years old and now I'm. 69 was to become a a psychedelic. therapist and so I just am so lucky that. this idea that I had when I was 18 still. makes sense now and the goals here that.

they point to the the important strategy. that we have at Maps which is there's a. two-fold parallel strategy one is to. medicalize psychedelics for PTSD for. depression for anxiety for substance. abuse for other things but the other is. to change drug policy and to make these. legally available to people on their own. and if they want to do it in a religious. context that's fine if they want to do. it in a therapeutic context that's fine. if they want to do it at a party that's. okay it's how they want it so it's it's.

basically a somewhat of a Libertarian. approach to this idea that the. government shouldn't be um intruding in. in our own Consciousness and how we. adjust our Consciousness they should be. um making penalties you could say for. misbehaving but to being in different. states of awareness that should be our. human right and so it also speaks to our. long-term goal so our long-term goal. which may be very long term is a um Mass.

mental health and a spiritualized. Humanity where we understand our place. in the universe and and we're not. destroying the environment and killing. each other and so that requires this. two-prong strategy that it's not just. making psychedelics into medicines for. people that have clinical diagnosis it's. also in a way preventative medicine you. could say for healthy people to explore. their own um like a vision question. when you're young or when you're you.

know contemplating death or at any point. in the lifespan just for personal growth. or Joy or celebration so I like to. reframe recreational drugs as. celebratory. drugs very cool we have we have a lot to. talk about we do um but before we dive. in everybody that comes on the show gets. a gift oh oh thank you so did I go ahead. open it up.

oh oh gummy bears those are vigilance. League gummy bears made right here in. the USA. unfortunately there is no psychedelic. effects in. those I was just looking at the. ingredients but we're looking for that. we're looking at that is there canabo or. no it's just it's just a good snack you. can have on the way home oh thank you. that's it okay great but um so we.

connected through Trevor Miller yeah who. gave me my first IA gain experience. thank you Trevor for yeah linking us. together I've been super excited about. this and and the stuff that Trevor's. doing down there it has changed a lot of. lives mine included I haven't I have not. drank in over a year now well I see all. these bottles I know I get a lot of. flack for that but um cuz I am I haven't. drank in a year but I don't know what. else to put there W so we'll figure.

something out eventually but um yeah you. know it helped me be in the moment I. haven't had any caffeine I actually uh. in a year over a year wow I quit smoking. marijuana for right around 4 months and. then um I needed it to sleep again ah. but um funny cuz I use marijuana to not. sleep really yeah cuz I get the highest. uh THC sativa and late at night I like. to work with it it it makes me more.

creative and so when I'm tired I smoke. pot to wake up in order to do work yeah. you're a night owl I am a night owl yeah. what are you working on at late at night. well last night actually I was up till. like 2:30 uh so I I yeah if I go to I. feel lame if I go to bed before midnight. man I am in bed every night at like 8:30. 9:00 but I got I got an 18mon old he's. yeah he's up at 4: but. yeah I just have an unending stream of.

emails and work to do and you know at. the maps public benefit Corp we now have. about 130 people that's our. pharmaceutical arm at Maps which is the. nonprofit that currently owns the public. benefit Corp we have about um 32 people. or so and there's just we're we're. culminating decades and Decades of work. so there's so much to do and late at. night is probably my favorite time. because everything's quiet and I can. think you know I'm not responding to. phones and then I can sort of pick.

what's the most important stuff to do. yeah well I got a got a lot I want to. cover we got a short amount of time and. um some of the stuff I want to cover I. definitely want to cover your MDMA. studies yes in Iceland well well well. that's just starting we're starting to. start it in Iceland it hasn't started. yet yeah I I I want to dive into that. and then we'll get into the Mental. Health crisis and uh and Legalize It All. so but let's start we're kind of I kind.

of brought up Trevor and um yeah. everything he everything that my journey. down there has done for me and and for. anybody listening his his website's in. the description but Iain yes so you've. done Iain I've done Iain I'd love to. hear a little about your experience okay. so um my one experience with iig and it. was one of the most important. experiences of my whole life but it.

wasn't one that I thought oh I'm going. to rush to do that again it was kind of. difficult it was very difficult and it. was in 1985 so it's it's a long time ago. and what was happening map started in. 1986 and so um 1984 is when I started a. nonprofit before maps and that was in. anticipation of The Drug Enforcement. Administration trying to criminalize. MDMA so I learned about MDMA in 1982 2. when it was still legal and it was a.

drug called adom as a therapy drug but. it was just becoming ecstasy so that it. was clear that during Nancy Reagan just. say no and Ronald Reagan that they were. going to come after it but we had this. uh advantage in the sense that the DEA. knew about Ecstasy but they didn't know. about the therapeutic use of MDMA that. had been done quiet in homes it wasn't. public the MDMA had been used more. public settings and it was starting to. be be sold in um in bars and for dances.

and things like that so um a bunch of um. advocates for psychedelics and there. weren't that many back then and Albert. Hoffman who invented LSD and synthesized. cocy and Sasha shulan who sort of The. Godfather of MD May and also Stan grath. and others we gathered at esselin which. is in biger California Dick Price who. was one of the co-founders of aselin and. so we planned how would we defend um the. therapeutic of therapeutic use of MDMA.

once the DEA would come to criminalize. it all right so um in 19 um 84 they. moved to try to criminalize it and they. had a 30-day public comment period and. on basically the 30th day uh around I. went into DEA headquarters with this. petition signed by Harvard psychiatrists. re uh all all sorts of people and we had. pro bono legal representation by a big. DC law firm and and we were able able to. get this hearing and what that meant is.

that we have a series of hearings and we. could bring Witnesses and so there's a. man called The Secret Chief he's he's no. longer alive but his name was Leo Ze and. so he was the one that really pioneered. the medical use of MDMA and trained. hundreds of therapists and so he was. part of this group as well and he came. to me and he said you're going to be. coming up to try to be a spokesperson. you're going to be helping to represent. us in DC you're going to be going to. these hearings with the DEA and I want.

to give you an Iain experience if you. want it with um the purpose is to sort. of um own your own shadow to um because. if I go into these um sort of struggles. with the DEA and I'm all good and I'm. demonizing them and they're all bad you. know I'm not going to be able to build. Bridges and I'm not going to be able to. really understand um where they're. coming from and and so it was also to. help me just through my own therapy as.

well all right so I said Leo yeah I. would be very grateful I'd like to do. this he previously see sat for me for an. LSD experience mixed with harmaline. which is one of the drugs in iasa. harmaline harmaline not heard of that. one yet yeah it's it's not as. psychedelic by itself it is somewhat um. but it's um so I had that experience it. was beautiful but then he said uh let's. try the iig which um there's incredible. book called The Secret Chief revealed.

about Leo Ze that's available on the. map's website and it's his story about. all the different drugs and how he uses. them and he helped really popularize uh. ibigan also in the United States all. right and so I began I took it in the. plant form and it takes a while to have. an effect so he said I'm going to give. you um LSD at the same time that I'm. going to give you this Cain oh man and. it was 350 micrograms of LSD which is a. pretty hefty dose of of.

LSD and we were planning to have a. therapy session that would be like 12. hours long or or or more something like. that and so we started in the morning. and I had done a whole lot of LSD in my. life before then but of course I'd never. done Iain and so I could feel the LSD. dissolving my sense of self and opening. up to U all these incredible energies. and visualizations and it was just it. was very challenging but also very very. um ethereal in a way LSD is a lot in in.

your your mind psilocybin is more in. your body but it also has a lot of. visuals but LSD is even more abstract in. that sense it's very interesting yeah um. I think that's why that people would. have more potentially more kind of panic. reactions to LSD than to psilocybin in. some ways CU you're it's not as grounded. as the psilocybin but it's also. incredible but I could feel that um I. was doing well the way I descri. described it is that you know you're. going in there the peak is about 3 hours.

or so from the. LSD and um and I was able to pretty much. be open to that but then I felt this. gradual sort of other thing coming up. which was the imain you could. differentiate the I could and and I. think the um CU When I sort of peaked. with the LSD and it was starting to. diminish in a way the Iain was building. and building and. building I and what I ended up doing is. um feeling like you know so much is at.

stake here and this is going to try to. help me argue with the DEA to keep MDMA. legal is a therapy and I have to do the. very best that I can and and so I I got. into kind of a familiar negative spiral. that I've had before with a bunch of my. early LSD trips where I wasn't um. capable I was too scared of Letting Go I. mean I was holding on um you know the. the this idea of your ego dissolution.

and and opening up to whatever is there. takes a lot of trust and a lot of. strength and a lot of support from um. the outside if you can manage that I. used to do that just by myself and I. didn't have therapy support or anything. like that so this was this sense that I. was um this rumbling in my kind of. guttural sense but then it was that if I. could just let go fully if I didn't have. fear if I could just open up that I. might get all the important insights and. I might make these important changes and.

then I would be more effective but I was. holding myself back and I felt like oh. then then it turned into this sort of. Shame spiral like you know this is. incredible beautiful opportunity and all. you need to do is let oh and you can't. do it and then I would just V I would. get sick about myself and then I would. throw up and and then that would give me. a little bit of Peace for a little bit. more time and then this swirl would. start of this um again the sense that I.

wasn't good enough that I should be more. capable in this ways and everything so. much depended on me to do that and I was. wanting myself to do more and I just. couldn't and so it ended up this the. imagery that I had was that I was and. I'm Jewish and so this imagery was that. I was being crucified on the cross of. self-. perfectionism oh wow that I I I couldn't. accept the fact in a way that I was. human I had to be perfect I had to be.

this kind of better than I was you know. and that this self-. perfectionism was Unreal like I I wasn't. acknowledging my Humanity but also it. was connected to self-hatred the. self-critical part was connected to. self-hatred and I would see that and it. just went on and on and on and I just. kept by the time I had nothing left to. throw up but I was still like throwing. up and and it was like 10 12 hours of.

that and and and I just couldn't get out. of it it was just this spiral and it was. clear the ey began by this point the LSD. had had pretty much gone and and and we'. started in the morning and somehow I had. this other phrase that I told myself was. um near the evening the stars came out. and something switched in me and I. called it um Transcendence through. exhaustion it wasn't that I figured. something out out it wasn't that I made.

a intellectual or emotional breakthrough. or a spiritual breakthrough I just so. exhausted myself by this constant. struggle that I just let go I couldn't. do it anymore and I had this most. beautiful night like probably the most. um in the now moment you know and and. watching the stars and and and this is. where I pieced a bunch of things. together which is that I need this. self-critical part that that's the um.

the urge towards quality that that's the. vehicle towards quality you need to be. constantly checking yourself on how you. could do better but if I could separate. out the self-criticism from the. self-hatred. then I could even do better in my life. because I would have an easier access to. all the self-critical part and it. wouldn't be so painful because it wasn't. linked to the self-hatred. how many of you have logged into your. Netflix Amazon Hulu whatever your.

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call 855 936 gold to get your free. golden silver kit I can't predict the. future but I can certainly prepare for. it so go to shaikes gold.com or call 855. 936 gold now performance may vary. consult with your tax attorney or. financial professional before making an. investment. decision and I sort of had to accept the. fact that I'm human and with within that. was also the sense that I'm going to die.

partially was that I'm not um Immortal. you know so was partially the fear of. death accepting death accepting my time. is limited accepting that I'm human and. then it was this Blissful night of just. acceptance but somehow I told myself. that by the morning light that the. nausea would be back that I would be. back because I I I still felt I just. hadn't earned it I hadn't thought my way. out of it I just exhausted myself. and so sure enough the sun comes up and.

all of a sudden I'm I'm you know. completely nauseous and I I can't even. sit up and there was supposed to be a. friend to come oh sorry let no. worries okay. um yeah so I was supposed to um have a. friend come and pick me up but I. couldn't even sit up so so um the people. that were taking care of me told him not. to even come and I spent the whole next. day just lying like in a fetal position.

occasionally I would go to the bathroom. they would give me a banana or something. to eat but I hardly ate anything and it. was this Inc very disturbing dizzy it. was horrible for a whole other day mhm. and so then on day three finally my. friend came to to pick me up this was um. at at somebody else's house and when I. was leaving I finally could stand up and. and I had this unusual serious Ser of. experiences is as we're driving I'd. never been there before and but I was.

like I think I know what's around the. corner and and I would describe it in a. couple times I'd be right really but it. was I had come that way to get there. okay so it wasn't that I was tuned in. but but I think what it had done is it. had cleaned out a bunch of space in my. brain this constant self-criticism this. constant self-hatred this battle in my. brain it kind of quieted that and I. think that I had more mental attention. to remember all these uh peripheral. things that had happened as I was.

driving to this place that I wasn't. really paying attention to it but. somehow it had registered and now I had. more space in my brain and I could. somehow think oh I can that's a memory I. just sort of caught that out of the. corner of my eye but that might be. what's next and so ever since then I've. had a much easier relationship with this. self-critical part and when I look back. and I think what are the things that. really contributed to this successive. maps that right now we have two. successful phase three studies with MDMA.

assisted therapy for. PTSD it's the fact that um we've made. millions of mistakes we've this is we're. doing stuff that I've never done before. nobody's ever done before we're. constantly making mistakes but we're. able to learn from them one of the. things that I'm very proud of is that in. our protocols our various experiments. that we did particularly in what's. called phase two which are the studies. that you do to figure out what's your. treatment what's your dose who your. patients who does it work for who. doesn't work for it in order to prepare.

for phase three which is the biggest uh. that's where the large scale multi-site. double line Placebo control studies to. prove safety and efficacy to try to get. FDA approval but in phase two you're. learning and we would constantly be. amending our protocols with something. that we learned and try something new. and try to keep improving patient. outcomes and so I do think that that. Iain experience that one Iain experience. which I I do think about more more as. Iain than. LSD at because the Iain is what really.

lingered and I think changed it. fundamentally that ability to separate. um self-hatred from. self-criticism really I think has. contributed to where we are today. because it's not as painful to think oh. I up here I I like to joke that. but I mean it that I'm just a up. who just keeps trying you know that. persistence and and and I'm I'm. comfortable making decisions I I've. learned to that leading an organization. that a lot of times it's more important.

that you make a decision than it' be the. right decision you just have to you. don't know the right decision you just. make a decision and then you learn once. you've made the decision and if it's a. wrong one then you change course but so. I I attribute so much to that Iain. experience and then we ended up this. idea of owning my own shadow um I was. able to make a good relationship with. some of the people from the DEA and and. to just show you how amazing that was. there there was one person from the DEA. Gene hop at the headquarters that was.

the one behind criminalizing MDMA but. there was a fellow Frank Sapienza that. was the deputy and he went to all these. hearings and he had said uh to Newsweek. in the early. 1985 that we took them totally by. surprise that the DEA only knew about. ecstasy they didn't know about the. therapy use so when I showed up they. were taken totally by surprise so in our. my discussions with him and my meetings. with him I knew that he wasn't really. trying to crush the therapy he was.

trying to crush the recreational use we. were just collateral damage but at least. we could kind of feel like I could tell. him stories about therapy and why it's. important and we eventually won the. lawsuit against the DEA you did we did. but we lost uh that battle because the. DEA didn't have to take the. recommendations of the. judge it was called an administrative. law judge hearing and the administrative. law judges make recomend recommendations. they don't compel okay so when the DEA.

rejected the recommendation of the judge. they have to give a rationale and so we. were able to then sue them in the. appeals courts where the appeals courts. can tell them what to do and we won. twice again and they kept but they kept. saying to the DA you did it wrong your. logic is flawed think about it again and. so they did it twice and both times we. won again and finally on the third time. the DEA figured out how to make um the. courts happy all right so what happened.

just um about six months ago or so is. there's a woman Rachel newer who's done. some articles about psychedelics for the. New York Times she's writing a book on. MDMA and she wanted to interview some of. the early people that from the DEA that. criminalized MDMA and I said all right I. I'll see if I can find them so Jee HP is. no longer alive but I said maybe I can. find Frank Sapp enza and so as it turned. out um I found him on LinkedIn really. he's no longer with the DEA but he. consults with Pharma companies to help.

them reschedule drugs if they get FDA. approval wow could believe it all right. so I decide to write him a letter we. need help we we have Consultants that. were working Penny and Associates that. they're experts and Drug uh abuse. liability and they advise FDA and DEA on. you know where the schedules you know. how much control should be about the. drugs so I I wrote him this message on. the LinkedIn and I said we haven't. talked in 35 years. and now um we're all this way we've got.

two successful phase three studies well. well we have one successful pH three. study we're doing the second one at the. time I contacted him and I said we're. going to need some help if the second. study works out to reschedule would you. work with our team and also this woman. Rachel wants to interview you for her. book so the very next day Frank wrote me. back and he said I remember you I. remember you really well you know I. remember this and yes I will be willing. to help you in this effort to reschedule.

drugs wow and I attribute that to my. Iain experience really yeah because this. idea of I could see Frank not as the. evil DEA trying to crush this beautiful. therapy MDMA I could see him okay he had. a job he's thinks that people are. hurting themselves with drugs with party. drugs and you know he's trying to do. that but I think this idea of owning my. own shadow and being able to approach. people where it's not I'm all good and. they're all bad it it made it so I had a.

better relationship with. Frank and and I do attribute that a lot. to the ibigan. experience that is. fascinating just just how it all came. you know full circle yeah and um and you. know you talk about the self-criticism. and self-hatred and and uh that is. actually something that I got a lot out. of the iaame. cuz I'm I'm a perfectionist I'm.

extremely. self-critical and um and when it came to. this this is exact you know my podcast. this show it just as soon as I got done. with that this show just exploded and it. was I was. so so particular about every little. thing that which guest is coming on my. research I used to. spend a week researching each guest and. I could only crank one of these out a.

month because I was put so much time and. effort into it and then after the Iain. it was it was similar it was just do it. just do what you want to do quit. worrying about what everybody else. thinks quit being so critical of. yourself and just get in there and do. what you love doing can can you say. though how the iban helped you to do. that or. well it I didn't get like a lot of. visuals in the Ia gain I got I had a lot.

of intuitive. thoughts during my my journey but I I. don't know exactly how it happened it I. kept seeing New Beginnings like the. first thing I. saw uh down there was was we started. with these Maracas and we were in front. of a of a mirror it was very ceremonial. which I which I really. appreciate. and and I I a lot of the guys that I.

went down with they laid down first. before they saw anything and and I was I. wasn't doing I was like I'm going to see. something in this mirror I came down. here to to dig deep and uncover some. stuff and first thing that happened is. is my head started splitting open like a. almost like a tulip or a flower or. something it's split in two wow and and. then a new head came. up like mushroomed out of my old head.

and um and I I had talked to a therapist. afterwards who kind of guided me before. and and helped me afterwards and and me. and her um kind of dug into a lot of. this stuff and. and we think that means New Beginnings. MH you know and. um and without going too deep I was able. to put a lot of past. traumas away and and and and deal with.

it in the moment like that and and it. just really help me and then could you. say just more about like putting past. traumas away I mean that's so hard I. people stuck sometimes for decades we. actually had someone in our studies who. had PTSD from Vietnam wow and they still. are able to get better so so H but they. until that they couldn't put it away so. so how how did that happen I wish I. could tell you I don't know I can tell. you I I've it was.

like it was like going through thousands. of memories and what I saw one my the. visual that sticks out the most is it. was almost like these TV screens just. rows of TV screens and they were just. going like that and disappearing Over. the Horizon everything was black and all. I could see was two rows of TV screen. just.

going um almost like the the credits and. Star Trek you know they just disappear. yeah and I could see all these different. memories from childhood from war from. Iraq from Afghanistan from my time at. the agency the SEAL Teams things with my. parents recent memories with my wife and. my son on our property and it there. didn't seem to be any any they weren't. organized in any certain way it was just.

it was just all it was just TV screens. just wow moving past and anytime I could. see him through my peripheral but if I. tried to dive in and and re-experience. something like oh I remember that that. was when we got blown up in Iraq or I. remember that that was an argument I had. with my dad you know when I was I there. was memories of me like 5 years old. coming up wow but nothing like I said it. was just it seemed completely.

random and if I would try to dive in and. re-experience something everything would. disappear huh and then they would come. back and so I guess I maybe I I train. myself to not try to control the. situation and dive in and re-experience. these different memories some of them. good some of them bad some of them. because I missed somebody who's not here. anymore all kinds of stuff if I didn't.

try to re-experience them that then it. would just keep going and keep going and. so I think what that was maybe was all. of my I I think it was my neurop. Pathways opening back up and and. everything kind of reconnecting does. that does that. sound um well I think that there is. physiological correlates of of what's. going on psychologically and that um I. gain there's an interesting um woman.

who's a neuroscientist at Johns Hopkins. goul Dolan and she's done studies with. uh MDMA and in mice and shows that um it. releases oxytocin and that produces new. neural Pathways okay all right and so. she talks about this critical periods. where your brain is more fluid and you. can create new uh connections from the. Sy synapsis and and Route things in. different ways and what she's found and.

this is I think explains a lot about the. power of VI gain is that the longer the. drug experience lasts the longer this. period afterwards that your brain is. able to make new patterns and new. connections so it's interesting about 5. Meo which is so short but it's and I'd. like to get to that too but it's but you. know MDMA. um lasts about four or five hours 6.

hours but in therapy we give half an we. give it an initial dose and then two. hours later we give half the initial. dose precisely to keep it longer okay. LSD lasts longer than psilocybin but. ivain was the one that lasts the longest. in a way and that means that your brain. is open for the integration work. afterwards to repattern your brain so I. think some of it is happening while. you're under the influence of Iain. that's when it's most intense but then. this integration work to solidify it. afterwards you have more period of time.

after Iain oh good so I think that this. idea of these new neural Pathways is a. is a really probably a very. physiologically accurate way to think. about it you're processing information. in a different way it's not so focused. on um your your kind of normal way of. processing and and and I would also s. imagine now I don't know if this feels. true but there's a way where you. um when all these memories are coming by.

like in in the different TV sets that. that you're somehow you're aware of all. of them you know you're aware of what it. is you kind of GRA I mean I guess I go. back grock which is from. um you know just. um this concept that you just understand. it in an instant in a way yeah yes and. then when you look at it it kind of. slows it down and in a way so so I think. when you have all of these um memories.

that are coming up they are sort of. being unloaded from your storage and and. you're able to also accept them and. without a the resistance so so maybe. that so so I'm curious when when it was. happening was your emotional tone kind. of the same this kind of or or was it. changing with each different memory or. no it wasn't. no it wasn't my emotions weren't really. changing I was I if I remember correctly.

I was pretty steady and and I didn't. have I didn't have a lot of emotion. seeing what was passing because let's. say let's say it was something good that. was passing and then something bad and. then something good and then there was. no pattern or anything but they were. moving maybe about this pace and so as. soon as you know as soon as the this is. here there's a new memory popping up so. you didn't really have maybe there was.

only a couple seconds and it was oh I. remember that by the time by the time. that processes the next the next two. screens are up you know and and so like. like I kind of mentioned it's it was. like. experiencing hundreds maybe a thousand. memories wow all at once you know and. that wasn't the entire duration either. there was other things that happened. that uh I still haven't really put. together um but the end result.

was all of the stuff that I had. mentioned no drinking um I lost 11 lbs. my eye color got lighter wow um yeah it. was my wife noticed it right away um she. said my my the whites of my eyes are. whiter now it's come to find out um I. think Trevor told me that ibigan is a. heavy metal detox as well. and so I just have nothing but good. things to say about I think everybody.

needs to be doing this stuff but to be. honest with you and then my 5 Meo wait. before we get to that so how long was. this experience with I I mean I I. describe being like incapacitated. basically the second day how how did. that same same I did I think the I went. down there with there were three of us. Marcus Capone which you know was with me. and um and then a civilian I won't say. his name because I don't know if he. wants it out there but.

um I was the last one out of the room I. was in there for over over 12 hours I. think I was in there for 14 hours wow. and. then couldn't get to my room had to have. somebody help me two people help me down. the stairs get to my room and I was I. was out the entire day um still having. some visuals believe it or not and then. at the very very end of the day uh. actually in the evening I got up and for.

the first time that I can. remember um I was able to sit with. myself in complete peace wow and and not. feel anxiety and not feel like I should. be doing something and and and it felt. amazing but um and the last visual I saw. was it was like a a 1980s video game. character walked out into the front of.

my head and just waved goodby and then. walked right back out where it came from. and I was like interesting and um and. then the next day we did we did the five. and um and so that that's another thing. I the I don't know how much benefit came. from each thing cuz it was it was a. collective uh experience experience but. the 5 Meo DMT I I still say this to this.

day is the most profound experience of. my life and um it was the most anxiety. the most fear I have ever felt out of 14. years being in combat zones and wow so. so what was the because I imagine being. in combat zones you're scared of dying. and so what was more frightening than. that I was dying. so it was definitely a death experience.

and that fear and anxiety lasted for. maybe 30 seconds you know it I know it. wasn't long and then I had a. breakthrough and I. felt like I was dead and everything made. perfect sense I could feel all of the. interconnectivity of. energy and for the first time in my life. I felt that I felt and once again I. didn't do the blindfold I could see. everything so I could see the ocean I.

could see the islands the clouds the. trees the grass the bugs and I could I. could just. feel and it was an intuitive feeling I. could just I could see the energy. flowing through every all of us. everything and I felt the presence of. friends of mine that I had. lost um it was just I knew everything. was going to be okay didn't matter what. happened here it doesn't matter what.

happens here everything that happens is. supposed to happen and uh it. was it. was like letting go of all control and. surrendering and and and it was like you. it was like I was rewarded for. surrendering yeah does that make sense. yeah yeah because that's what I was. trying to say it's the resistance that. is so we talk about what's the.

difference between um a bad trip and you. know people talk about bad trips what's. the difference between a bad trip and a. difficult trip the bad trip is you're. just resisting it the whole time the. difficult is you're open to it and you. may have things that you have to deal. with that are difficult take some. struggle but I think that the openness. to it is really what gives the gifts and. the resistance is what keeps it Bay and. so it sounds like you were just very. open to it and that surrendering is then.

rewarded because you're you're open to. it but but I'm also curious when you say. you were dying um I'm curious in what. sense did you mean you were. dying my brain was telling me you're. dying I mean it was it was you know Rick. I felt I felt like every. ounce of pain and suffering and anxiety. and anger any any negative emotion any.

negative anything was I could I swear I. could feel this like going through my. veins and and I and it felt like it was. all coming out of my fingertips and my. toes and like it was just getting sucked. out of me and then right before I made. my breakthrough I had. once again I it wasn't a visual it was. like an intuitive feeling but I felt.

like there was all this black tar over. my heart and I could feel this black. tar melting off of my heart and when the. laughs drop was off it was like a a it. was like a pure Soul or a pure heart and. and it was I opened my eyes at that. point and that's I saw I remember seeing. some birds fly over over and I. just I knew that this.

is everything is beautiful and um and uh. and you know there the the the last. piece of fear I had I I had a problem. the the last thing I was having a. problem letting go of was my wife and my. my newborn son who was only about 6. months old at the. time but after I hit the Breakthrough I. I knew it was okay to to let go w you. know and and uh it was the most freeing. experience of my entire life what was.

your experience wow well I'll say just. but let me say that Stan gra has has. talked as my mentor and leading lstd. expert in the world but he's talked. about how this idea of the um the. dissolution of the ego in a way that. that a lot of people do feel that as if. they're physically dying because we are. who we think we are and as that is kind. of falling apart heart we often. interpret it as we're dying and so Stant. he he first I think it was 1955 or so is.

was his first LSD trip they were doing. it early on in the Czech Republic and. the way that he he was a psychiatrist. and the way that he and his uh. psychiatric uh team they would work with. people with. LSD uh a few times they meaning that. they would have patience that they would. give LSD to and then they would sit with. them and support them and then later. after they' done it a few times they. would have their own LSD trip to help. them do that better but he saw several. people that um came up to this point. where they felt like they were.

physically dying this the sense. of their own identity was was being. dissolved in a way by the way LSD works. in the brain and so he saw that several. times that they weren't really dying he. would reassure them it's symbolic it's. not actual but then when it came time. for his first LSD experience he. described that um he came up to that. place and he decided that he was. different than everybody else because he. really was dying and that it's cuz he. had this uh illness when he was young.

and somehow that had changed his. chemistry this is a story he told. himself somehow that had changed his. chemistry and now he was allergic or. whatever and he was really dying even. though these other people weren't that. it's that strong that that you interpret. this loss of your sense of self as dying. interesting and you're you're being born. into something bigger if you can let go. yeah but if you resist you're do do. people get caught in that oh my God yeah. that that's a lot of my early trips were. all about I couldn't let go even my I.

again was I can't let go I can't I. can't trust or I I don't have the. strength or it takes a lot to let go the. the 5mo is great in that regard because. it's so. overwhelming you can't resist it's just. so. overwhelming um so my 5m experience was. um and again I I've only done it once. and and I've been talking to to a bunch. of people now who are um using lower. doses of 5 Meo in vape.

pens and combining and and sort of. gradually working up to this kind of. dissolution they can adjust their doses. in different ways and and Stan actually. U and brigita his wife said that um this. idea of taking. MDMA and then like an hour later or so. starting to experiment with the vape. pens Stan actually described that as the. future of Psy patry because the MDMA. gives this sense of Safety and. Security and then you can have less of.

that fear and anxiety as you're losing. your sense of self and you can sort of. blend into the universe in in a more. I've not tried this yet but but I'm. hearing more and more people that are. doing that or more and more people that. are starting to experiment with 5 Meo in. these vape pens at different doses so. what my experience was was before all. these vapens and it was just uh you had. just smoke out of pipe and you know. couldn't really adjust your dose and you. just try to get in as much as you can.

and so what um I also attribute a lot of. um the success of maps to this 5 Meo. experience because what it gave me was I. felt like I was just blasted into the. universe and that I was kind of like in. the um this like the the sense of how. the big bang that that there's this. ability in any second to create. something new you know we think about.

space as empty but there's a way that. space is sort of a um a substrate for. sort of things that can happen yeah you. know so so I felt like I it was almost. like into the center of the Sun or. something like that I just felt that at. any moment the power of creation of. something out of. nothing that that's that's um accessible. and in any moment and that often when I. feel trapped or I feel stuck or there's. something that the DEA is doing or the.

FDA is doing and it looks like there's. no way out you know or I'm blocked in. this way that 5mo experience has left me. with the sense that I can create. something new in any moment I can create. new facts or I can bring something new. or I can reach out to somebody the the. sense that you're never really trapped. there's always this ability to create. the new and and so I sort of felt like I. went back to the Big Bang or the moment. of creation or just this incredible.

outflow of energy wow and that that's. that's what what's remained with me from. that 5 Meo is that you know even as we. solidify sort of into you know our. patterns in our habits that that that. there's always hope there's always a way. for the new there's always also. something dying there's always something. dying but there's also always something. potentially new and so um when we did. with the 5 Meo too we had about 20 of us. and and most were therapists or. psychiatrists and stuff and you often.

lose control of your body and so we. would have. spotters as people roll around and. because they not aware of you're just. completely out of your normal sense of. self and it's incredibly fast and it was. very inspirational and um I think at. some point uh maybe in the not too. distant future I want to start. experimenting with these vape pens but. it's all of these experiences can be. pretty shattering in different ways and. they take time to put yourself back.

together but um I I was just a um an. experience I won't say exactly where but. it was a group of people after um MDMA. were doing MDMA I was uh going on the. contact high so I wasn't but um and then. this woman did um 5. Meo you know a after several hours of. having experienced MDMA and she'd done. it before and it was just a struck I. mean she was speaking in tongues she was. just like completely overtaken by all.

this energy wow and it was just for 10. minutes or something speaking in tongues. we felt like it was something sacred it. was something extraordinary she was so. open to all these. energies and um and and she had kind of. a similar somewhat similar to what you. described is that she felt like it's all. going to be okay and she can see that. things are going to take the time that. they're going to take but that she came. out of it with a lot of Hope like we. will be able to accomplish these things.

that there will be you know this kind of. spiritualized humanity and mass mental. health and but it was this experience of. her just channeling being so open to. this energy running through her that it. was magnificent it was was just in awe. and she had all these people that that. were around her sort of giving her. emotional support while she was doing it. and it was beautiful ceremony and wow it. was just extraordinary so I think this. MDMA base and then the 5 Meo is.

something that in the future again Stan. says it's the future of Psychiatry. because you you get this sense that um. well Al those Huxley who wrote the dors. of perception he came up with this. theory about um the brain and after his. mesculin experiences that he said the. brain is a reducing valve so you know. right now if we relax I can hear there's. a little bit of kind of a hum there. there's but but we're not normally. paying attention to those things because. we're paying attention to what's in. front of us and then we're paying.

attention I think Abraham maslo you know. has this hierarchy of needs the. psychologist that helps start humanistic. psychology and then later transpersonal. psychology so it's your survival needs. your belonging needs your self-esteem. then you know. self-actualization um a lot of people. don't realize that near the end of his. life he changed he modified that so self. Transcendence he said is really the top. above self-actualization you become your. full self but then you go beyond. yourself to see that you're part of.

something much bigger wow and so I think. this uh 5 Meo you know facilitates this. kind of. self-transcendence you know this ego. dissolution and. um and and there's just so much um. opportunity I think if we can as as. individuals and as uh culture start EXP. exploring these experiences I mean it. it's I was just with Marcus U we had an. event in Dallas a couple days ago um and.

it was with Governor Rick Perry and it. was about um you know the Psychedelic. story um and this idea that that there's. bipartisan support for Shing to bring. these experiences so that more people. can have them and more people can do. them in legal context and supportive. ways and I think there's an enormous. amount to be gained by that but people. have to be willing you know you can't. force it on them but if we can have.

cultural support um I think the the. other part I'll just say is that a lot. of my early Awakenings to um LSD were. around the time that we were sending we. meaning Americans were sending somebody. to the Moon MH and some of the. astronauts talk about the overview. effect of looking back at the Earth from. space and you can be spiritualized in in. certain ways from that Edgar Mitchell. was one of the astronauts he started the. institute for noetic studies noetic. meaning direct knowing also looking at. ESP and other kinds of telepathy and and.

different things but it was because of. his time and space and so I think. Humanity as a whole is kind of getting. more spiritualized in a sense but. there's a lot of um fear and resistance. and people are sort of you know. retreating into fundamentalism in a lot. of different ways but it's something is. uh potentially new being born is this. where we are in the universe where we. are on the planet I think one of the. amazing things about Co was that it U.

the the downside to something I mean the. upside to something terrible is it. helped us realize how connected we all. were yeah and I think that's this sort. of understanding of this uh uni of. mystical state of how connected we all. are yeah what when is the when did you. do the five that was also back in 1985. you haven't done five since 1985 right. right and if you don't mind me asking. how why haven't you done it again it's. scary it's big I mean it's like I was I.

was I was wondering if you were going to. say that I'm getting ready to do another. one um yeah next month and and yeah I I. I think another reason why I haven't. done it is more that um I've been more. um you know 1982 is what I learned about. m MDMA 1984 is when I worked with the. first PTSD patient with MDMA and so I. think I have at least enough of the um.

spiritual sense that there's so much. work on the human level that that I need. to do both for myself for relationships. and so um I I haven't been called to. have that kind of experience but also um. I've I've T I don't know if you've. talked to people but I've talked to. several people who uh the 5o disrupted. them in major ways um sometimes people. said it was so beautiful where they went.

that they were depressed to come back. others weren't so open to it and and. were sort of stuck in this halfway place. with some of these emotions so I also. feel like I'm so um busy and doing so. much that that you need to give yourself. time you know if I Vio is so fast I. think people make a lot of um. misunderstandings that oh yeah I I got. an hour free I'll do it and then go back. to life you know it's not like that you. know it takes a while to integrate it.

and and you could be you know like with. myant it could be three days it could be. so it's not a casual thing yeah to do. like that interesting but I'm curious if. you don't mind me asking how how. routinely do you use. psychedelics well um what I routinely. use is marijuana okay so marijuana is um. I'd say more like um a classic. psychedelic than MDMA is MDMA is more.

heart opener it's it's more U it is a. psychedelic mind manifesting so I I'll. do marijuana four to five times a week. something something like that um the. Psychedelic experience is I try to do. MDMA now once a year or so with my wife. maybe twice a year um and then every. year or so to do a big um Soul cbon or. trip like that. um although I will share hilariously. that the last two big siloc cybin trips. I had were a mistake um in both times I.

thought I was just eating. chocolates one time I was staying at a. friend's. house and he wasn't there and I was like. it was midnight I was getting hungry I. needed to I want some energy and I'm. like okay so I noticed there was some. chocolate in his. refrigerator I'm like okay it doesn't. want to melt you know it's in southern. it's in La whatever and. I I I just ate this chocolate and then.

like I I complete my work I'm getting. everything ready I'm going to sleep I. had um about um 10 hours before um I had. an appointment the next morning to go. see our phase 3 MDMA PTSD site in LA and. everything's put away my P my back you. know I packed my everything's play and. then I'm right about to go to bed and. I'm like oh I'm tripping oh my God. and then I was like God you never know. what leads to what you know and then I.

just okay I'm in it you know okay I'll. just like open up to it and then I had. this and I knew that um you know Sil. cybin lasts like six hours something. like that it's more of a steep drop off. than LSD LSD lingers and lingers but. when the pyment is done sometimes you're. like okay now back so I kind of felt. like I would have an hour or two to rest. after it was over before I had to go. meet a bunch of people oh good and and. it was I I think there's a way in which.

I kind of maybe not that I knew what I. was doing but I I had had um I needed an. ego um. reduction I I I would say I had an. incredible time in LA and had all these. meetings and there there's um a book. about our work called acid test um LSD. ecstasy and the power to heal it's about. the lives of one of the veterans that. was in our studies Nick blackon and then. also um about my life and then Michael. mid Hofer who's the our lead. psychiatrist and it was about how our.

lives from childhood developed and how. we interacted and so that's been. optioned for a movie by Vice and. participant media and so I had a meeting. with the person that was going to be. writing the script and the director. earlier that evening and and I'd had met. a famous actor and I I did other things. that were kind of extraordinary in LA. and um and I was kind of getting full of. myself and so during this mushroom. experience that I hadn't intentionally. done I I had this realization that this.

entire time that I was talking with this. um director U Jonas rasmason is his name. and and he made the movie flee which was. nominated for three Academy Awards and. it's it's about an Afghan Refugee and. and flee fle so but I realized under the. mushrooms that I had spent the entire. time with him telling my story to him. him but I hadn't asked him why he cared. about telling this story it was all ego. in me m and and so I felt like it was a.

good experience I needed that sort of. mushroom trip to put me in my place but. I wouldn't have done it intentionally I. was just eating this. chocolate wow what what would you say. what was your most profound psychedelic. experience well it's hard hard to say. cuz I I've done MDMA about 130 times. I've done LSD over 100 times i' I've. done a lot of different. things.

um but um well if I had to say like w is. the most profound it it is really hard. to say but but I I do um think about. this one. experience um that I would say was the. most mystical experience of my my whole. life and um it was um around also around. 1985 this was a big drug period for me. it's a great year for you it was a great. year for me um.

um and this. experience as I said we we had started. this nonprofit try to protect the use of. MDMA and when it was legal we we were. able to reach out to various people who. wouldn't otherwise do an illegal drug. and one of them was a man Brother David. steinel Rost who's um in his 90s he's a. Roman Catholic monk a Mystic but he he. was open to trying MDMA as in half dose. as an aid to meditation in the monastery.

he was in a monastery not far from Elin. in bigsur and Stan gra had brought him. to be a teacher for us for a couple days. and I got to know him and really like. him and and he was willing to experiment. on um trying MDMA as an a to meditation. and found it helped them tremendously. and he actually then spoke to the media. once the DEA tried to criminalize and so. it's like we're um. changing the narrative the da oh MDMA. it's all about ecstasy it's all about. parties and then we got a monk saying.

that it helped them to deepen his. meditation we had a rabbi compared it to. the Sabbath wow so we're winning in the. public uh in the public and uh the court. of public opinion and we were also. winning in the court but so during this. MDMA experience part of it was I was. just starting to get more public to. challenge the the DEA and I was also. thinking about Brother David and I was. like so I found a camping spot a. beautiful spot at the edge of the Ocean. Edge of the continent so I was right on. the Pacific Ocean I found this spot.

where the the high tide came all around. me right the mountain behind me but I. was dry where I was and there was big. rocks and boulders out there and the. waves were crashing but I had this. little perch at the edge of the. continent and the in Big Sur where it. was you know there's not that much light. so the stars were incredible and and so. I was thinking about um. first off you know how do I stay safe. you know and so there was this tree this. big overhanging tree and I sort of.

imagined that was the the DEA and the. police and and so I was interacting in a. way and and I came up with this Insight. that the DEA and the police they spend a. lot of time trying to find what you're. trying to hide from them they're trying. to look for what's not there and if you. come up to them directly they have to. engage so they're directly dealing with. me with the lawsuit and things like that. but I felt that there was a certain. safety that that I was getting it wasn't.

just risk it was also trying to make me. safer to confront them directly and if I. didn't give them direct Clues like I'm. doing this illegal stuff which obviously. I was but if I didn't you know um sort. of I could confront them in this way and. I felt that that anyway made me safer to. speak out rather than less safe and then. I was thinking about Brother David and I. was like why would somebody want to cell. AIT life what what's the point of trying. to be a monk and why would you even want. to do that um and so I was just thinking.

about that and then I I was sort of. relaxed about that and I was just um. opening my heart and opening up to the. night and I just felt this enormity of. the stars and the the universe and the. Roaring of the ocean and the Pacific. Ocean being so big and and everything is. so big and I'm so little tiny little. speck and and I just had this feeling at. a moment. like like I could just disappear into. the Universe I could let like this full. Eco disolution like this enormity but I.

myself am sort of gone and and and after. a while I I sort of realized well I was. still there I I wasn't really gone I'm. like well why am I still here I know. that the Earth is spinning at at. thousands of miles you know and that. there's just everything's in motion why. don't I just fly out into the universe. and why am I still here why am I atoms. together even and then I had the sense. that um there was something that was.

keeping me there that was gravity and. that gravity then I interpreted it as um. as a human as a lover that I was and and. it was more that I was um cradled in the. arms of gravity that gravity was keeping. things together if no gravity we'd be. all dispersed everywhere but I felt. gravity Like a Lover like a like U and I. felt that there's this love woven into. everything in the universe and this. attraction of one thing to another that.

that permits things to to be built over. billions and billions of years that that. this kind of um sense of an. inherent. um filament of Love through everything. um and and I felt this is why people. want to be a monk in a way that that you. don't have a relationship for a. particular person or thing you develop. this love for the universe this love for.

every everything that is and there's an. advantage to being celibate in a certain. way and I felt this this sort of Love of. this Universal gravity and then I. thought this is great I figured it out. now I don't have to be. celibate and and but what changed from. that day and that's why I go back to. that is potentially you know I'd say the. most profound is that it changed my. sense at at the time I had no. relationship too so I was not involved. in a relationship I was on my own and I.

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20% and and and I think it was the most. mystical sense of of my whole life as. well and people talk about how oh you. know mysticism comes or this unit of. mystical experience more from the. classic psychedelics and I have had. those kind of experiences but I think. this was the one where I was both there. and not there and and I was a human and. part of of everything and and and so I. look back at that now I had a chance 30. years later at a conference where I was.

at and Brother David was at and I sat. with him at dinner and I I I I said um. that I wanted to explain to him the most. mystical experience of my whole life. because he was involved in it and I was. wondering what did he think about. it all right so it took 30 years for me. to have this conversation with him wow. and I explained everything and um and I. said I was cradled in the arms of. gravity that was my imagery and and. that's helped in so many ways and then. he was silent for a while and then what.

he said was I think about gravity every. day really that's all he said I think. about gravity every. day yeah so he can relate he could. totally relate. yeah that was uh was that did you say. that was MDMA that was MDMA interesting. do you so it doesn't matter to you. whether it's natural or oh it totally. does not matter so so let me say that. there's a um a romantic nature people. have if it's from nature it's somehow.

good um everything's from nature we're. all you know and and even our brains are. from nature and if we put stuff together. you know in a way it's natural but I. think it's the molecule so you know LSD. is incredible I mean but it's doesn't. appear in nature there's something. similar to LSD called LSA so LSD is. lysergic acid dlam LSA is lysergic acid. Amid and that's in morning glory seeds.

and there's molecules similar to LSD in. aot but there's no LSD in in nature at. all so I think this natural. synthetic divide is is meaningless and. that the um the molecules are the. molecules wherever they come from and. things from nature can be poisonous and. things from the laboratory can be good. MDMA itself does doesn't appear in. nature either but where it matters is. politics so right now in Oregon there. was the Oregon psilocybin initiative and.

it's getting ready to be implemented and. then in November of this last year. Colorado passed the natural plant. medicines initiative and so we were. working with the people that um put that. on the ballot and spent the money to get. it approved and and they were doing. polling to try to figure out um whether. it would pass or how to speak to people. and what they learned is that when you. add in LSD or. MDMA suddenly it would no longer pass. that if you just say natural plant.

medicines then people oh yeah I'm all. for that you know okay but you add. synthetics and people have this reaction. like oh now you know I'm not for that um. I'm glad you're I'm glad we're talking. about this cuz I'm gonna be honest I'm. one of them ah I am you think if it's. from nature it's better or I just yeah. you know I just have that mindset and. and um I take I personally take my. psychedelic Journeys at very seriously.

like like you were saying I block off a. time period where I'm not going to be. doing anything couple days before and a. couple days after and I I want to be. able to clear my head before I get into. it and and I'm very ceremonial and yeah. that's great for some reason I'm I'm I'm. drawn to the plants well well tell me. what you think is the difference. I don't really know how to explain it. brick but I feel like I just feel like. if it's natural.

then God or the universe put it here for. us to find and and and and you know. another reason is I I I lost a lot of. trust in the pharmaceutical companies. and so because I lost a lot of trust in. the pharmaceutical. companies the synthetic. um maybe got pushed in lumped in with. that yeah if that makes any sense yeah. yeah it does it does I don't think so um.

I do think. um well fortunately 5 Meo we now know. does come from a toad the Venom of a. toad and that I comes from the the ioga. root um but I'll just say that um maybe. this is not a difference but the sil. cybin obviously comes from mushrooms but. all the research that's been done with. psilocybin has not been psilocybin. mushrooms it's been synthetic psilocybin.

interesting I did not know that all that. so there's not been any research really. with mushrooms all that we hear about. the last 20 years of all the research. with psilocybin it's synthetic. psilocybin now they're making synthetic. something that does appear in nature so. it's not quite you know a synthetic but. it's um and people are starting to say. maybe we should research the mushroom. let let's let's give mushroom for. psychedelic therapy how will that be. different from um the the synthetic so. I've only done mushrooms I've never had.

access to psilocybin in a that was. synthetically produced so all my. mushroom experiences are only the. mushrooms and and they've been profound. incredible but my guess is that if you. were to give. somebody um a mushroom experience that. it would be identical to the. um psilocybin psychologically there. there are other molecules in the. mushrooms that may have other medicinal. properties um but but I also think that.

there's um incredible value in LSD and. and it is synthetic so I think what's. more important and I think this is the. fundamental part that's wrong with our. drug war is that we've made that certain. things are good or bad by themselves. like these are bad drugs and they're. illegal and these are okay like alcohol. and tobacco they're they're good drug. they're okay but I think it's the. relationship that we have with it is. what determines whether it's good or bad. or whether it's beneficial or helpful. and so we miss that by the drug war and.

we miss this whole idea of the. relationship and one of the best. examples of that for me is the drug. called theide so in the um 50s and 60s. the lamide was used for mour sickness. for pregnant women and It produced. incredible terrible birth defs people. would be born with without with. shriveled limbs oh a lot of times and. this was really um popular as a drug by. the Pharma companies in Europe and there. was um this effort now to bring it into.

the United States and there was this. woman at the FDA that um had heard some. of these stories it wasn't clear that. these birth effects at the time were. connected to theide but she thought they. might be and so she blocked it from. coming into the US and she's the only. person from the FDA Francis Kelsey was. her name who ever got a presidential. Medal of Honor for blocking phetamine so. it was the quintessential bad drug all.

right a decade and a half or so later. phalidomide we noticed is people noticed. that it's great for certain kind of. cancers it shrinks blood cells it. shrinks blood supply to certain things. so it's it's now a medicine so this. horrible drug in certain contexts. pregnant women was terrible but in other. contexts with people who are struggling. with Leprosy with cancer that this drug. can be very helpful and so it's a. different relationship with the same. thing and so I think it's the. relationships more than is it natural.

isn't synthetic makes a lot of sense the. the 5 Meo I did was synthetic 5m by the. way so yeah so it's just so you weren't. hurting any toads. nope but um but yeah I'm I'm glad that. we just talked about that because yeah I. have a kind of a bigger question. uh you know so that in the Psychedelic. 60s right psychedelics got kind of. connected to um the hippies and the.

anti- war movement the anti-vietnam war. movement um you know and you've talked. about how you've been in in war and so. so I'm wondering has these psychedelic. experiences how have they impacted your. sense about uh war and and and violence. and. you know what we're trying to accomplish. or if if at all it made me rethink. everything I think a lot of it is.

is meaningless. senseless stuff that we don't need to be. involved in and um you know Rick the I. don't have a lot of experience with. psychedelics but my trip with Trevor. um it just changed my perspective on. everything and uh it did it made me. rethink why we were over there what we. were doing over there why we were there. for so. long it made me had I done psychedelics.

prior to joining the military they. probably wouldn't have joined did is. that what you're asking well in part. yeah because I now think though that you. know what we see with the war in. Ukraine it's so clear that there's a. massive um to to Al itarian effort to. take over democracy in Ukraine so that. we need a military we need to fight in. certain times but not in others so um I.

so I I guess I'm wondering are you. saying you're a pacifist now or just. that there's more differentiation. between you know when it's appropriate. and when it's. not I wouldn't say a pacifist but I'll. say I think if everybody was doing this. stuff we wouldn't have any of these. conflicts right and I think a lot of us. would be getting along who don't. normally get along and and I don't I.

don't think we would have this Mental. Health crisis I think a lot of hatred. and a lot of anger would disappear into. nothing you know if people if people. gave psychedelics a chance yeah would. you agree with that I do and in fact. that so when I was 18 you know I was in. despair in a way about the world you. know and I had been. um well I I was Jewish born in 53 not.

that long after the Holocaust I had. relatives in Israel Palestine since. 1904 um and relatives that fought in the. 48 war of independence and so I was just. um raised from a very young age about. the reality of the Holocaust but I was. taught it in America at the time of. Americans height of our power you know. so I felt that I could kind of approach. the horror of that from a safe place in. a way but but I was sort of told by my.

parents that I was part of this. multi-generational story now you know. Judaism goes back you know you get hear. these stories of the Pharaohs and. building pyramids and stuff but I I. think that's more myth than reality but. but still this idea that was taught to. me that I was product of refugees that. came from Poland and Russia in 1880s and. in the first early part of the 20th. century um from uh my grandparents and. great grandparents they came to America. for Freedom they found it they they made.

a a good life they they succeeded and. then my job was in this generational. line was to to think about these deeper. threats I I also was very much um. influenced by the Cuban Missile Crisis. so I was just a young boy and and you. now the whole world could blow up and we. could die everybody could die and they. teach you um you know Duck and Cover. under your desk you know kids have um. sad to say you know active shooter.

drills and stuff but but this was like. what do we do if the world blows up um. and I just felt increasingly like the. world was um we we hadn't evolved from. animals that far you know our our our. rational thought was not um and I was in. Despair and I was also um in one of the. last years of the lottery for Vietnam. and so I decided at the time that I. didn't think it was a a a a wise war and.

I thought that there's multiple. different ways to serve your country and. that I wasn't going to run away to. Canada or pretend I had bone spurs or. something like that um but I wasn't and. I wasn't a conscience objector because. to be a conscience objector you need to. be a passivist and against all Wars and. I'm like you know if it was to fight. against Hitler and the Germans I would. fight I wouldn't say you know rely on. their. Humanity um and and so my only option I.

thought was to um protest in some way. and so I decided that I would be a draft. resistor and I would go to jail that I. would serve my country by going to jail. and that I would drain the war machine. from. resources um and so I never filed for my. uh draft card I never sent in the first. postcard to register for the. draft now I had uh a social security.

number I was paying taxes I had a. driver's license I was in high school I. was on the. roll it just was like the government. knows where I am you know and so I just. assumed that I would end up going to. jail and that that I'd studied Gandhi. and Tolstoy and nonviolent resistance. and I thought that's what I would do. that's how I would serve my country and. what I overestimated was the efficiency. of the government so and my parents.

talked to me and said this is um okay. you know we understand what you're doing. but you're going to be a felon and. you're never going to be my dad was a. doctor he said you're never going to be. able to be a doctor or lawyer or Indian. chief anything like this because you. you're going to have this felony record. I'm like okay I will accept that and. I'll just have to figure out something. else to do with my. life um and as it turned out nothing. ever happened to. me really nothing nothing it was just.

like I you know uh later about a year. later after I didn't do this I got a. high lottery number so I I probably. wouldn't have gone anyway but but I. thought something and later it turned. out that um around 60,000 people I'd. heard had didn't register for the draft. and there were enough people going to. the draft boards that they could. prosecute the war and and they didn't do. anything and then President Carter on. his first day in office pardoned all the. draft resists so I had identified myself.

as a young boy as a counterculture drug. using. criminal and and then but but the thing. was that the when I first started doing. LSD and I first started getting the. sense that there's something beyond my. biography that it's not just the world. began when I was born and it will end. when I die that there's this whole other. stuff that that that that sense of being. connected in a deeper way is the. antidote to to genocide and to Holocaust. and nuclear war and and racism and you.

know that so I I do feel that if if. people were to do these experiences in a. supportive way because you could do. these drugs and you could end up worse. off if if you're not supported and that. happens to a bunch of people but I do. feel if people could feel that Beneath. My Tribe Beneath My Religion beneath my. gender Beneath My Race beneath my. national ality we're we're humans. beneath that we're part of this web of. life that if we felt that and knew that. we wouldn't be demonizing other people.

so much and and I had this one. experience when I was um 16 I was very. interested in the other and studying the. other and so I studied Russian in high. school and the Russians were you know. the Cold War and and and horrible and so. when I was 16 years old after my junior. year my parents sent me to. Russia to study the langage which and. and this was. 1970 and this is the big Cold War time. and I had the impression that all these. Russians hate us and that we should be. hating all these Russians and they want.

to kill us and we've got all these bombs. aimed at us and I just thought okay. we're it's these countries against. countries and and when I got there and. my parents to their credit um they they. taught me this other thing which was. that there's big factors and you none of. us are big enough to deal with them by. ourselves but if you can do something. little you you should do it so you know. in my little suitcase they gave me. prayer books Jewish prayer books to. bring to Russia which were illegal at. the time and they said if you can get.

these to people at a synagogue while. you're there you should do it because. all these prayer books are illegal and I. ended up um I did this I did find um the. synagogue and I I I did give these. prayer books to these guys and and um. I'd made a lot of money in the black. market you know selling stuff to Young. Russians who wanted to buy clothes blue. jeans and all this stuff and the rubles. were worthless outside of Russia so I. went to the synagogue and said I've got. all this money for you and I've got. these prayer books and they said don't.

give it to us now we're under. observation but uh I'll meet you in a. Subway at this time at this place and. you can do the transfer then and I. thought this is great I'm James Bond now. you know I'm like you know but I'm 16. and I was like hey if they catch me you. know they'll just me oh you know so. I had this Fearless kind of yeah stuff. but and I did and I I met the guy and um. did the transfer but but I realized. these people didn't hate us and that. that it was their governments and these. clashes of power people but that that um.

I mean what made an amazing impact on me. is I was super shy I went for a walk. with a Russian girl on the beach I'm. like you don't want to kill me I don't. want to kill you you know so I I do. think that the the sense that we're all. in it together I do. feel that so when I was 18 and I first. started doing these psychedelics I. thought this could be this antidote it. has been wiped out so I woke up to LSD. after the backlash but I thought I have.

this sort of privileged life that my. parents will make sure I don't starve. and I have a place. shelter um and and I'm supposed to do. something to avoid another Holocaust and. I thought maybe the psychedelics this. this could be it so that's where I focus. on with that same belief that if more. people could do this that we would have. a different approach to conflict and we. would have a different approach to the. irrational um you know that we would not. buy into it as much and that we would.

try to see people so so that that's why. my whole life has basically been devoted. to psychedelics but it but I think it's. important that um. that that we say that that that it's for. everybody so I think this idea of. bipartisan support and and this idea. that um I mean okay so so I guess this. is a question for you that you might not. have gone into the military at that at. time but then what if you know people. landed here in America you know trying.

to take over then I would fight yeah and. I still would to this day okay so that's. that's I think the most important yeah. yeah I I'm so yeah I guess I'm not. against I I don't know how to say this I. guess I'm not against War but I am. against if you don't if you can't if. you're not defending yourself or. defending somebody. else I don't really know what we're. doing there anymore you know and and and.

there were a lot of other things that I. you know that I thought about. what. um after my experience you know and. um it CH it did it changed everything. right changed. everything but um but back back to you. let's talk about let's let's I want to. go into the Iceland stuff and what you. guys are going to do out there okay um. well well let me say first off that that.

our thought is to globalize access to. psychedelics and globalize access to MDM. assist of therapy so our first phase. three. studies um were in Israel Canada and the. United States so I I as I said I was. trained to to sort of make a. contribution to Israel I thought bring. psyched to research in Israel. so the um once we if we do get FDA. approval it will very shortly thereafter.

be approved in Israel and Canada we're. also starting research in Europe so. we're trying to get approval by the. European medicines agency so we're we're. doing um studies in around 10 sites and. seven countries in Europe we're also um. have had some studies in Brazil in. Australia in other places and so this. idea of um sort of a global community so. what happened in Iceland is just. recently uh in January of this year.

actually there was the first psychedelic. conference in. Iceland. and researchers from around the world. were invited to speak and I was one of. the ones that was invited to speak and. it was very well received and it was the. whole Community I mean Iceland is only. about 380,000 people and so the this. conference was um well covered in all of. their media on on TV and in magazines. and and newspapers and so a lot of.

people heard about it and many people. from the government came to the. conference uh from the prime minister's. office from the minister of from the. Department of Justice from the. Department of Public Health all a lot of. these people came to the conference and. so one of the things that's been hard. for me I would say is that I have um. perceived of the police as the predator. and I'm the prey just because of the. drug war mhm and so there was this again. um seeing through these kind of things I.

realized that um I now have my nephew as. a police. officer my my uh my sister's son is is a. police officer in Washington DC oh and. and so I we decided that we would try to. um reach out to the police the police. have one of of the most traumatic jobs. you could imagine absolutely um and a. lot of times veterans have preferential. hiring as the police and so you could be. traumatized before you get into the. military traumatized in the military and.

then you get a trauma-inducing job and. and so I think the police are under. enormous stress so um and as part of. this sort of trying to show it's healing. for. all and. the I gave a talk uh we arranged to give. a talk at the uh International. Association of the chiefs of police. and it was exactly you'll see how this. relates to Iceland so it exactly was um. you know like 10,000 people gather this. was in Orlando a bunch of years ago um.

and then president Trump was president. at the time and um he decided these were. his people and he announced several days. before that he would speak at this. conference and they uh scheduled his. talk exactly the same time as our talk. there was me one of the therapists one. of the veterans that we'd worked with um. and then we have a senior retired DEA. official who's now acting as a. consultant to us because his son went to. Iraq and got PTSD and came back and. found cannabis to be helpful to him and.

it changed his dad's mind so he's now. become Tony Coulson is his name he's. become one of our main advisers so there. was a police officer in the um. uh in the the well there was we went to. our room it was big for 350 people or. something but because everybody went to. see Trump there was only like 20 people. in our room. oh and but there was 20 of the right. people we said okay these are people. that really want to hear us and in the. front row was this police officer and he.

came to us afterwards and he said uh I'm. also a psychotherapist Saro gregarium is. his name and um he said he wanted to do. our training program to give MDMA to. other police officers with. PTSD and so we said this is fantastic. we'd love to train you this is exactly. what we want to do this is for every. everybody and so he's been through our. training program he was featured on the. Netflix documentary of how to change. your mind by Michael pollins book and so. we brought him to Iceland so that's how.

so we we came to Iceland with a police. officer and he brought his police chief. they're they're they're from winthrip uh. outside of Boston. luckily um and so that they came as part. of the delegation to Sarco did to to be. on the at the conference and so what. came from it is that we met with the. Minister of Justice and his deputy and. they said that they would be interested. in paying for a study to give MDMA to.

victims of crime to prisoners in prison. and police guards prison guards and. police officers and so we're now. planning a training of Icelandic. therapists to take place the first week. of August and once we are um training. them then we'd like to do this study. which would be one of the most important. ones to try to reduce recidivism and. also to try to work with victims of. crime and and to see if the I think it's. very traumatizing to be a prison guard I.

mean that's one of the hardest jobs I. could imagine yeah you know. so if if they can learn how to sort of. work through their own traumas and. process all these emotions you'd think. they the prison guards could be more. Humane or the the prisoners might be. less violent if if we deal with their. traumas and yeah so what happened in. Iceland was one of our goals is U the. long-term goal is we're calling it a net. a world of Net Zero trauma by.

2070 so you know it's it's almost 50. years away but I think this idea of how. do we spread the Psychedelic healing how. do we spread it all over the world how. how do we deal with the right now. there's 100 million uh displaced people. refugees or migrants there's a a. prediction that if climate change. continues by 2050 there may be a billion. climate. refugees and a lot of them are from Wars. and struggles too because when you fight.

over limited resources and then and. there's more that so um what we'd like. to do is think about Iceland as a test. case it's a small country we have the. support of people in the government. there are a bunch of therapists already. there can we have a country that has Net. Zero. trauma and and if we can demonstrate in. the small way in Iceland maybe we can. imagine you know okay there's 380,000. people there and there's 7.8 or whatever. billion people in in the world but but.

that could be an example and so with a. country that's small you can kind of. work with their national health. insurance and with their education. system and it's it's a lot easier so. Iceland we hope will become um a test. case in a way for um how do you build a. whole country. that has um is less and less producing. trauma to the point where you know CU. trauma it lasts there so there's. multigenerational trauma there's. epigenetic mechanisms in the U in the.

body where trauma gets passed from. generations to. Generation Um so Iceland we're hoping. can be a test case in a way for this. that's brilliant did is this your idea. well well I mean it was a collective. that is amazing. how long so how long do do you how long. do you anticipate this taking to create. a country oh I mean 20 30 years I mean I.

mean again you you have to. um maybe it could be faster but but. right now in Iceland let's say you know. there's not that many psychelic. therapists you know we have to do the. studies we have to train the therapists. we have to get it embedded in their. National Health Insurance we um maybe it. could be done in 15 years or something. it's POS but but the other thing about. Iceland is that it's a very spiritual. place already the nature is incredible.

and they have Northern Lights and they. have volcanoes and they have um you know. the Continental Divide in in a way we we. think of where the you know in America. where the waters but they've got um the. tectonic plates are separating so. Iceland is growing a little bit like an. inch a year or something like that but. but the the natural wonder of Iceland is. just incredible they have hot springs. and and ba hot baths all over but the. the it's just extraordinary so it's. already kind of a mystical but they have.

a lot of Darkness because it's so. elevated I mean so high up in the. Northern Hemisphere and so we heard that. they have one of the most highest. percentages of people on psychiatric. medications oh really of any country in. the world because they do have wealth. enough to pay for medicines they used to. be quite poor but now they have so much. tourism for the natural wonders so I I.

think that um it it is a good test case. it's also surrounded by water as you. know it's an island and uh you know. Greenland there's only like 60,000. people or something like that um so it. is a natural experiment it could be and. there are more and more people that are. moving to Iceland but most people are. from this kind one culture and um know. each other a lot actually what we were. told by the Minister of Justice is that. a lot of the people in prison are. actually from outside Iceland where.

they'll come foreign gangs will come to. do drugs or other ways of criminal. Enterprises um and then they give us it. and then they're they're not integrated. into Islamic society and so I I think. it's a real opportunity now now earlier. when you read my bio I just say that you. said I did a a 30 plus year followup to. the Tim L's conquered Prison Experiment. so that was actually from um 61 to 63. and that was an experiment to see if you. could give prisoners psilocybin.

experiences while they're in prison to. to help them have this sort of. pro-social I'm connected with everything. work through their traumas and then when. they come out that then they would be. less likely to reoffend and be sent back. to jail and so this was uh Timothy l. would then do he would bring people into. the prisons and the researchers would. also do. psilocybin really with the prisoners. yeah he would have some of the. researchers that were not but some were.

were were doing the pyment and this was. considered to be one of the most. um effective psychedelic studies that. had ever taken place so so after the. backlash and actually so again 1970 the. control substance act after research was. wiped out for several decades all over. the world with psychedelics we would. look back what are some of the most. successful experiments and the conquered. Prison Experiment was considered to be. one of those and so they also did what's.

called The Good Friday experiment. Timothy ly and Walter Panky and others. this was on uh Good Friday. 1962 in Boston and it was also to see if. um psychedelics could produce a mystical. experience and so they took 20 Divinity. students from Andover Newton into church. on Good Friday and they all got a pill. half was ssy and half was Placebo and. the minister was an incredible guy his.

name was Howard Thurman and he's a. African-American Minister he's no longer. alive um he was Martin Luther King's. Mentor Martin Luther King got a PhD at. Boston University but more importantly. than or not more importantly but in. background Howard Thurman had spent time. with. Gandhi and he had learned about. non-violent resistance and he was the. one that really helped guide Martin. Luther King and others into the strategy. of nonviolence for the American Civil. Rights Movement okay and and and Howard.

Thurman was sympathetic with this idea. of the political implications of the. mystical experience meaning that we're. all connected meaning that's you can't. be so racist if you realize I mean if. you look at the difference in in genetic. material between somebody that's black. and somebody that's white there's no no. differences hardly it's trivial um and. and so I did a followup to the Good. Friday experiment and showed that it. basically was confirmed I track these. people down roughly 25 years later but.

then and that got um attention in the. media and a fell from the um Corrections. Boston the the Department of Corrections. for. Massachusetts um contacted me and said. he had all the information of who the. prisoners were in the conquered Prison. Experiment did I want to do a followup. to that. study and I said I'd love to because the. names were all lost nobody knew who. these people were there was no way to do. this until this guy said that they had. kept the records of people in the. concrete Prison Experiment wow all right. so then I did this long-term F we spent.

a whole year of getting permission it. went all the way up to Governor weld was. the time of B of Massachusetts and the. the permission slip that we got was. hilarious because um it gave us. permission but somebody had scribbled on. it no. psilocybin like of course we're just. asking people and check their criminal. records we weren't planning to give s. they just wanted to make sure you know. no. s um but but then I discovered to my. dismay that.

um ly had fudged the results and it. wasn't. successful and it was weird that it was. somebody who was me as an advocate for. psychedelics wanting to bring attention. to what was the what I thought one of. the best studies CU cuz what Tim said. himself is oh you have a spiritual. experience you know people will tell you. about about that but how do you know and. and you know that's why this long-term. followup was so important but he said. with reducing recidivism that's. objective you can tell it's not about. their minds do they go back to prison or. not that'll tell if it works and he.

claimed that it worked and so when I. looked at the data it took me a long. time but I started feeling this data. doesn't represent what was reported and. and so I discovered that um what had. happened is that lirry and the other. team Ral metzner and others had realized. that the Psychedelic experience is not. enough it's enough to give you a good. start but you need support afterwards so. the same way that you need it ing. gration after a psychedelic experience. if you if you're trying to reduce.

recidivism you can't just give people a. psychic experience kick them out the. prison doors and think they're going to. do okay and just as they realized that. they started creating these support. groups and then they got kicked out of. Harvard oh God so it's not so so this is. what we all brought to Iceland is that I. that that this exper experiment was. never really done fully because the. experimenters themselves realized that. they had um overemphasize the. Psychedelic experience and. underemphasize the integration and the.

support afterwards okay and then if we. were to do something like that to try to. reduce recidivism if you combine the. Psychedelic experience with the after. care and have a control group that just. gets the after care we may find that the. Psychedelic experience really helps in. an additive way to reduce resiv and so. this is why in a way we were able to. present this research to the people in. Iceland and to say you know this would. be a tremendous experiment to do.

here so how would so how does this. experiment start in Iceland okay well. the the most important part is training. the therapists it's not just giving the. drug so we have to train the therapists. how many therapists are you going to. have well uh we're going to probably. train around 40 or so. a lot something like that I don't think. they'll all work on the study but but. the you know and there may be like. openings to um sort of compassionate use. for MDMA other other things that may.

happen in Iceland as well um but it. would start as a small pilot study and. and and but politically okay so I I. often say that we don't do science we do. political science you know because these. are suppressed things we're just coming. back to the surface so it's very. important for us to say. and this is what we said in Iceland that. we want to work with victims of crime as. well as perpetrators of crime and we. also want to work with the prison guards. and the police so the recidivism part.

will only be with the prisoners. obviously but but we want to have more. of a comprehensive s we're we're. bringing this into the carceral system. and we're trying to help everybody. affected in different ways so there's. there's several parts of training. therapists so for example Trevor Trevor. Has Done Iain you would not be so. comfortable going to Trevor if he'd. never done Iain to give you Iain. absolutely correct you know all right so. we have an initial training which is.

about um 100 hours and so the big part. of it is um 60 hours online it's more. background information what is our. treatment method how do we evaluate. therapists what's the history of MDMA. what do we know about other psychedelics. and then there's about 40 Plus hours. that's in person and so that's what. we're going to do in Iceland is they're. going to do the video part first and. then we're going to bring a team there. for a week to get together but then the. second part is that we want the.

therapist who want to it's never. compulsory but the therapists that want. to volunteer to have their own MDMA. experience as a patient themselves and. with therapist so stuff always comes up. we're all you know we all have issues so. even though the therapist might not have. have a PTSD or depression diagnosis it's. still valuable for personal growth for. all all sorts of issues so we also then. have to get a protocol approved in. Iceland to give MDMA to therapists who.

volunteer for it okay right so that's. the second step first step is the. training that's going to take place. starting probably in U June and July the. online portion then they do the week in. August then after that hopefully we get. permission before the end of the year to. have a protocol where therapists can. receive MDMA now we may have to we want. the therapists who administer MDMA to to. new therapists to have worked with PTSD. patients to know our method and so we.

may have to send therapists the same way. we're sending them to do the training we. will send some therapists there to give. MDMA to other therapists oh good all. right and then the third part of our. training is they actually work with. patients and it's all videotaped and we. have our what are called adherence. Raiders. and so and there's the the treatment. manual that describes the therapy. there's adherence criteria how are you. know are you doing the the treatment the. way we say it should be done to do this.

treatment manual and then we have. Raiders that watch the videotapes and. give feedback to the therapists and so. that's the final part of the training. and so once all of that's done then this. experiment with um reducing recidivism. with victims of crime then that can. start and and and actually it can start. where the first group is what's called. open label what that means is there's no. Placebo everybody open label means. everybody knows what it is okay so so we. train these initial people as they work.

with prisoners or victims of of crime um. where everybody knows they get MDMA and. then once they know the method then we. can say oh now we can do a controlled. study if we're going to do that so so. that's the sequence okay fascinating how. how long do you think this entire. experim expent is going to take well the. the the recidivism is one of the hardest. things to study because it takes a long. time to study it yeah so because um and.

one of the things I realized about the. conquered prison. experiment that. was scientifically uh fraudulent I would. say uh I am reluctant to use that word. but but the the um experiment that they. did with the prisoners once they got out. of prison they um would do these. follow-ups and the follow-ups were done. an average of people out of prison for. 10. months all right but then their base. rates that they they did a study of.

everybody released from the prison in. the Years prior to this experiment and. then they published the base rates of. that but in the analysis they compared. people that had been out of prison for. two years to people that had been out of. prison for 10 months oh okay so. obviously the people who' been out of. prison for 10 months are going to have. lower re citizen the people have been. out of prison for 2 years the longer. you're out of jail the more likely are. something to happen yeah so it was a. completely fraudulent you know. comparison but it was done in this. obscure British P criminology journal or.

something I'm just shocked that all the. people that that were against. psychedelics never checked this but when. I finally discovered I'm like. H you know I had to go in the dusty. archives at Harvard Library to get this. you know and probably most schools they. wouldn't even have this Journal but I. was able to and when I read this I was. like oh my God because not only that. that they have the two-month data but. they had a chart of how what the. recidivism rate was from the beginning.

to the two month to the 24 months the. two years and they had the 10-month rate. oh and when you look at the 10-month. rate to the 10-month rate it's the same. oh God but I don't know people just. didn't check and then I had to decide. should I like debunk this great. study for psychedelics. and I felt I am about science I've got I. can't just pretend so I I did report. that and I reported it in um a little. bit of a gentle way but but I said this.

this experiment is. bunk well let's talk about let's talk. about the Mental Health crisis here in. America just just yesterday right down. the street in Green Hills Nashville uh. there was a there was an active shooter. killed six people three children three. adults yeah. a lot of people are thinking. psychedelics is the answer to. this my question yeah is how do how. would that how would we even begin to.

implement that well okay so I I I would. say again that um. psychedelics by themselves we tend to. put too much power in the thing again. it's the therapy okay so so so let's. just say psychedelic assisted therapy. and in psychedelic assisted therapy to. give you a sense of um what our method. is for treating PTSD it's 42 hours of. therapy and it's with two therapists. usually a male female but not always and. now we've negotiated with FDA the one of.

the two needs to be licensed as a. therapist the second can be an. apprentice working to get a license or. doesn't have a license but it's 42 hours. of therapy there's only three times that. people get MDMA and it's one month apart. and these are for eight hour sessions so. in addition to these three 8 hour. sessions which add up to 24 hours um. there are 12 90minut non-drug. Psychotherapy sessions as well so there. are three of these non-drug.

Psychotherapy sessions as preparation so. I'm sure when you went down you had some. time with Trevor and others before you. did the obain so you and and I imagine. you had something on the phone before or. yeah so the way it worked was we got uh. we got a coach and a a therapist we. could talk to the coach whenever we. wanted we had uh therapy I think two I. think we had two sessions if I remember. correctly before we went down then you. go down um to Trevor's place and you.

have 3 days of of Preparatory yeah you. know doing different just all kinds of. different stuff you kind of group chats. sweat lodge all write your intentions. down talk about your intentions all all. of that stuff then you do it you know. that in um you do the Iain and then the. 5 Meo and then when you leave you. continue with your um integration period.

and um I went a little longer. than I guess recommended but um but uh. cuz I really I just really wanted to dig. in but I think I did four I think I did. four therapy sessions afterwards all. right so so we have three these 90minut. sessions before the first MDMA and then. three of them after each MDMA for. integration okay so it's a large amount. of therapy punctuated by these MDMA. experiences so how would we bring this.

to bear at a large scale to really. reduce the Mental Health crisis um there. there's we're hoping to train around. 25,000. therapists that's nowhere near enough in. this decade that's nowhere near enough. there's estimated million PTSD patients. in America and there's even more that. people have depression yeah um there's. loads of people that are addicted to uh. dependent on alcohol or other drugs and.

opiates opiates and yeah so I I think. it's going to take that's why I'm we're. saying Net Zero trauma by 2070 I think. it's really going to take generations to. do this but I think the steps are going. to be working with the FDA to get um. MDMA approved as a medicine for PTSD and. then we want to look at it for other. things as well there are groups that are. working to make psilocybin into a. medicine and they're suggesting that. maybe 2025 or so you know they might be.

able to 2026. 2025 um I am trying to try to do Iain. research and others are as well to try. to bring that forward um there's. researchers now working on just 5 Meo. DMT so what we had Now in America. there's roughly um 1,500 ketamine. clinics so so ketamine has been. developed s ketamine an isomer of. ketamine but it was it's a classic.

Pharma play in the sense that it was. developed without therapy Pharma. companies don't know Psychotherapy so. they and ketamine and all these drugs as. we talked about earlier they have a. pharmacological effect a psychological. effect and you can do some good without. sometimes without taking making it with. psychotherapy but you can also do harm. um and so the way ketamine has been. approved it's without Psychotherapy and. and a lot of these clinics that are. really uh smart and wise combine it with.

therapy you get better results you don't. need as much ketamine it lasts. longer so what we're going to have to. set up I think is um thousands and. thousands and thousands of psychedelic. treatment. centers and the goal is to not have. here's a ketamine Center here's an MDMA. Center here's a Iain Center here's this. it's we want to train psychedelic. therapists and they want to be cross. Tred into all the different drugs and.

then when a person comes to this. treatment center now we are also doing a. lot of work to try to get this covered. by insurance and we think we we've got. good responses so far from the insurance. companies because the cost of untreated. PTSD is really high mhm all right but. then people will come to this treatment. center and they will then have a. customized program developed for them by. these trained. therapists and so I think over the next.

um by. 2032 we've had some estimates that we. will hopefully treat about 1.4 million. people that's a lot of people yeah. that's a lot of people but that's. nothing compared to 13 million people. that have PTSD and the number is growing. yeah right so the other part to answer. your question about how do we really. change the Mental Health crisis there. there's two main things I'd say that one. is that we need to legalize and regulate. these drugs and we need to make it so.

that people could try it on their own uh. maybe you had a small drama you know but. if you don't do something it becomes. PTSD but if you treat it or or maybe. people just so so within this uh. post-prohibition world what we need is. um pure drugs available people so. they're not getting contaminated drugs. dying from fentanyl or something we need. honest drug education instead of the. Dare program that scares we need honest. drug education we need to train people. in peer support so we we have what we.

call the Zeno project which is uh a. group where we do psychedelic harm. reduction at Burning Man and other. events so places where people go to do. psychedelics and we would say. non-medical settings a lot of times. they're just looking for fun and. something difficult comes up and then. they're not prepared to deal with that M. or they're not even looking for a fund. but still something difficult comes up. and then they don't know what to do and. often they would get tranquilized or. they could become a problem for. authorities they could get arrested so.

what we want to show is that what we're. proposing in a therapeutic setting makes. sense in sort of non-medical settings so. we have hundreds of volunteers that we. organize every year at Burning Man and. last year we had about 500 and over 500. people came for help really yeah and. often from either while they're in the. midst of a really difficult psychedelic. experience or they had one the day. before and now they're trying to. integrate it um and so we need.

widespread understanding about peer. support so we train people in peer. support psychedelic harm reduction so. people can help each other um so with. all of those things um with a post. protion world with all of that then I. think we can um over time work both with. people with a diagnosis that then gets. covered by insurance and then people can. do this on their own in a wiser way than. just with no Guidance the other answer. or response to your question is that we.

need to move to treat people closer to. the trauma so what that means is right. now the FDA has forbid us from working. with people that are younger than 18. that have PTSD but they've said that if. you make MDMA into a medicine for people. people that are you know if they give us. permission to make MDMA prescription. medicine for adults designed as 18 or. over that we must do a study with. adolescence and if that works we have to.

work with 7 to 11 year olds so I think. we need to move sooner to treating. people for the trauma now the other part. of this relates to the veterans and the. VA and the Department of Defense so. we're now in about seven or eight uh vas. it took forever it took the inter. vention of Richard Rockefeller who was. um David rockefeller's Son um who he was. chair of the board of advisers of. Doctors Without Borders and he came to. help us um and I I worked with him very.

closely till he he died uh tragically in. a a plane crash but it was his cousin. Senator Jay Rockefeller that was from. West Virginia that was on the Senate. Veterans Affairs committee and together. they were able to influence the VA this. is now in. 2014 to let us pay for studies with VA. therapists but they wouldn't let us do. it inside the VA and they would not um. refer vets to us but we were able to. start that way we had also started in.

the San Diego Naval Medical Center where. there was uh Rob mlay was the chief. psychiatrist there and they have a two-e. program for Navy Seals and Marines and. others with PTSD an inpatient program. and he was interested in um giving some. of them MDMA and see if they did better. than the others so this is where I. learned about military hierarchy and. bureaucracy so which you're laughing so. I didn't know this now I see so Rob mlay. was great and he said I want to do this.

study but I can't do it um unless um I. get the permission of the Admiral who. runs the facility so the Admiral says. okay it's okay with me but now you got. to get permission from uh all the way up. from the secretary of the Navy just so. happened that Richard Rockefeller knew. the Secretary of the Navy this was Ray. Maus all right and then in this so so he. talked to him and we got a meeting at. the Pentagon so here I am a draft. resistor and you may remember that the.

hippie the yippies not the hippies but. the yippies surrounded the Pentagon as. one of their protests against the. Vietnam War they said they were going to. levitate the. Pentagon they did not succeed you know. but here I am walking into the Pentagon. all these years later to talk to them. about psychedelics and and we met with. the assistant U Juan Garcia was the. assistant Secretary of the Navy and it. turned out that he was a friend of mine. from the Kennedy School when I got my. masters and we'd been friends that and.

he knew I was interested in MDMA but we. hadn't stayed in touch our careers went. in different places completely but here. it is now he's the assistant Secretary. of the Navy and uh we met with him and. the Navy Surgeon General we caught up he. knew my girlfriend at the time who was. now my wife and so um so they said yes. they they love to do the study but. they're not high enough in the hierarchy. we have to go to the assistant secretary. of defense for health Affairs and we. have to have that meeting and meanwhile. um we got these letters from Jay. Rockefeller Senator Rockefeller to the.

assistant secretary of defense for. health Affairs and and then Jay. intervened with the secretary of uh with. the the the um yeah Secretary of the. VA um you know and it all came together. with this meeting and they said we do. not want you to work with active duty. soldiers and and their rationale was um. terrible their rationale was the need is. so great that if we permit you to do. work with active duty soldiers we're.

worried that the word would get out that. this is okay and a lot of people will. self-medicate you've got to be kidding. me that's what they said I said they. worried it was going to be successful. there was worried it would be successful. or or just the experiment would send the. word and people would self-medicate and. they're trying to to make it so people. only do the drugs that that they give. you rather than and so they said we want. you to start with the veterans and and. and so I guess the bigger story here is. that we need to move closer to the.

trauma and when you look at a lot of the. people that are in the prisons a lot of. them have had traumatic. childhood yeah I I imagine that. something may have happened with this. shooter who knows you know in childhood. or. or so I I think to to achieve this goal. kind of of a mentally Mass mental health. it's going to take Generations but it. starts by getting some of these drugs. approved getting these clinics set up.

training more therapists getting. insurance coverage and over time. globalizing and i' say one of the. biggest um challenges we face now is. that um we now are at this incredible. moment this incredible moment that after. April 8th coming coming right up is the. the 37th anniversary of. maps Right. congratulations yeah and and so I. started in 1986 37 years later we're on.

the verge we think we have two. successful phase 3 studies we hope by. June of. 2024 we may actually we project. hopefully getting FDA approval and we've. raised about $145 million in Grants and. donations to this point and a lot of. donated labor a lot of donated labor but. the rise of the for-profit Psychedelic. companies a few years ago made it more. difficult for us to to achieve donors to. to reach donations because a lot of. people thought they could just invest so.

we do have roughly 63 million from. investors but it's 43 million in what's. called a royalty share meaning that they. don't own Equity but they get a share of. the royalties and we have a a $20. million more or less uh convertible note. loan for two years oh God all right but. but right now we have this remarkable. situation where the nonprofit is the. 100% owner of the for-profit public. benefit pharmaceutical.

company and so we're at this Crossroads. and the next couple months is going to. be the turning point we need to raise. we're looking now to raise around $75. million to get us to FDA. approval and then after FDA approval. there's going to be another bunch of. money we need to raise to get to what's. called. sustainability where you know sales and. profits from the the sale of MDMA covers. the costs and then brings in more money. for more research and things like that. if we can get the FDA approval we're. going to have a lot of other ways to.

raise money more royalty shares or. selling off rights to certain. countries uh we were approached by. um uh company from South Korea actually. that's talking to us about uh bringing. MDMA to South Korea and maybe they'd pay. us a certain amount of money or or. things like so what we're trying to do. is in the next couple months figure out. can we find donors are willing to donate. so that public benefit Remains the. number one goal or do we find money from.

investors that then means that we become. uh most likely a publicly traded company. and so my hope is that we do this. through. philanthropy um you know I don't own. anything um those of us at Maps none of. us owns anything because it's a. nonprofit and the nonprofit is what owns. the shares of the public benefit Corp. but if we have to sell them to the. public then I think um things will. change in terms of priorities when you. have to respond to invest already we.

need to take into account the investors. that have given us money we need to give. them a a good return we need to do the. best to get royalties but but it's not. maximized royalties it's and and they're. Mission related all the people that have. invested so far are mission related. people so the hope is that we will find. donors and that then we can have this. rare situation of a psychedelic. pharmaceutical company 100% owned by a. nonprofit that's also willing to.

legalize and make it available outside. of us so while we might charge a. substantial amount of money for the drug. we want people to be able to buy it for1. or $20 too and we think people will most. likely um those people that are really. severely traumatized will or or even not. that but moderat sere trauma will go to. the trained therapists so I think. legalization is good for the business. model A lot of people think legalization. is bad for the business model and a lot. of for-profit Pharma companies are.

psychedelic Pharma companies are not. speaking out about the need to move to a. post- Prohibition world but I actually. think that that's what we need for Mass. mental health that's what we need for. ethics um and that's what we need to um. really um fully move forward with public. benefit in mind so I think that the the. choices are going to be coming to us in. the next three or months that's one of. the reasons why I'm so glad the.

timeliness of of this podcast with you. and then uh we're having the world's. largest psychedelic conference ever and. it's going to be June 19th to 23rd in. Denver really yeah it's called. psychedelic science 2023 we've had one. of these in uh 2010 psychedelic science. C where we bring the whole field. together the whole field was pretty. small back in. 2010 um then we had one in um that was. in San Jose then we had one in. 2013 and one in 2017 in Oakland and the.

2017 one was the world's largest. psychedelic conference we had about. 3,000 people there we already have 4,500. people coming to this one and it's uh um. a little bit less than three months away. wow so psychedelic science.org. it's going to be incredible we have over. 300 speakers people com from all over. the world we have the Denver Convention. Center we have an. enormous um number of exhibitors from. all these companies and so I think that. will be um either we have raised what we.

need by then or that will be the. announcement of here's what we need to. do one way or another. to to raise the resources and and I'd. say that the worst uh the biggest loss. of public benefit would be if we don't. raise the money and never make MDMA into. a medicine so if we have to go with. investors that want us to become a. publicly traded company um we will do. that my preference though would be to do.

this through. philanthropy So for anybody that W that. wants to donate where do they go um well. maps.org maps.org yeah and and if you. want to donate a substantial amount um. it's probably better for you to. um uh uh ask m maps at maps.org and just. ask for a meeting okay or something like. that um or or just call call the maps. office or you know but but but I think. that what we're hoping is that um that.

when when we talk about what we want to. accomplish the the world is in danger. right now I mean the the the Mental. Health crisis is getting worse the. pandemic made it way worse it seems like. it's getting worse and if it's true that. there could be a billion climate. refugees by. 2050 uh the stress is on everybody it's. going to keep getting worse so I I. really think that if we can keep focus.

on not maximizing money we've already. built the structure the public benefit. Corp is a modification of capitalism so. a a normal company and almost all the. companies that we know are are normal. for-profit companies their mission is to. maximize profits and if you're a. minority shareholder in a company and. you think that the management is not. maximizing profits you can get the other. shareholders and you throw them out and. you replace people who will maximize. profits and that's like a.

um that's one of the problems of. capitalism is that all these. externalities these companies don't. don't think about so the oil companies. are doing massive profits but they're. they're not having to pay for climate. change you know but but they're. maximizing profits so the public benefit. Corporation was created I'm not sure. exactly when but maybe 20 years ago or. something like that it's a modification. of capitalism where it is a for-profit. company but you maximize public benefit.

not profit so minority shareholders. cannot sue the management if you're not. maximizing profits so so let's say we. want to go to Rwanda or we want to go to. South Africa or or Ukraine you know or. all the Ukrainian refugees we want to. treat massive amounts of trauma where. there's virtually no money if we're. profit maximizing we wouldn't do. anything there but if we're about Net. Zero trauma by 2070 that means we have.

to have a global focus and we go where. the trauma is not where the money is and. so if people do want to donate we would. be delighted there's also the nonprofit. Maps which doesn't you know need nearly. as much money as the benefit Corp and we. do public education we do um harm. reduction we do all the fundraising for. the benefit Corp we um do policy and. advocacy we we do a lot of uh things.

through the nonprofit so people can just. donate to the. nonprofit for our own purposes okay you. know which in small amounts so so I also. want to say that you know we're talking. about such big numbers and so people. might think oh if I donate $50 that. means nothing and that's not at all true. you know it absolutely means something. yeah um where do you see the most push. back coming from legalizing this stuff. well I think that in a time right now. where over 100,000 people died last year.

from opiate overdoses there is more of a. bipartisan view that the drug war itself. is not a good idea that's why I would. actually like to see a. um n a study done perhaps by the CIA. about the National Security implications. of legalizing drugs I think that if that. study were to be done and we look at all. the Bad actors that are making all sorts. of money from drug dealing MH and of.

course we like some people who make. money off of drugs too um but add it all. up my my guess is that um we would. decide that it's an advantage to um. legalize drugs from a national security. perspective so I don't think the push. back is going to come from drug Warriors. in in that way um the the push back that. came in the the the initial backlash was. cultural it was against the. counterculture and Nixon was saying that.

uh um well actually it's John Erman was. Nixon's domestic policy adviser and in I. think it was in 79 he spoke to a. reporter and he said that the two main. enemies of the Nixon White House were. blacks and hippies H and he said if we. can criminalize the drugs that they use. we can bust up their meetings we can. arrest their leaders and we you know. because they can't stop the protest but. if we criminalize the drugs and then. Erman said did we know we were. exaggerating the risk of drugs of course. we did but it was a political tool so I.

think that we have done so much work and. also I would say the reason that we have. bipartisan support is like yourself a. lot of veterans who have um had. struggles with pts and America thinks of. veterans in in a high way in in high. regard and we should that um I don't. think it's going to come back the. backlash is going to come that way all. right then the next backlash came late. in the 70s early the 80s when it looked. like marijuana might get legalized the.

backlash then came from parents and it. was parents worried about their kids so. this was partnership for a drug-free. America and this was families against uh. drugs and and all these different kind. of um families in action I think it was. did different so I think that that's. kind of passed too and so I think where. the backlash would come from if it will. come from um it's not quite clear where. it will come from but I would say that.

the the thing that I'm um worried about. is um fundamentalists so what we're. talking about is the spiritual. experiences these kind of unit of. mystical. experiences and they're accessible to. everybody and when you have those. experiences sometimes they're mediated. through. um certain religious symbols or people. but sometimes not so I think there's a.

kind of a universal. spirituality and I think that a lot of. the fundamentalists from I I mean I I. look what's happening in Israel right. now the fundamentalist Orthodox Jews the. ultra Orthodox are destroying the. country in many different ways they're. the most racist the the most homophobic. the the most uh hateful for. Palestinians um you know and we see that. we we've got the so so I think fun I'm. just saying fundamentals of any kind. yeah are willing to look look what's. happening with the Taliban in.

Afghanistan so and and they their. narrative is that there's one right way. we know it and everybody else is an. Infidel and we will kill you yeah you. know so I think they're so in need of. this deeper spirituality though so both. that's where I think a big opportunity. is as well so actually this um Saturday. I'm speaking at Harvard Divinity School. they're having um a psychedelic Revival. in a way and and there's incredible.

information to that's coming out about. what's called The eloian Mysteries so. this is the world's longest running. mystery ceremonies it went from 1600 BC. to around 400 ad and it was wiped out by. the Catholic Church because they could. put themselves in a hierarchy between. you and God but the Elian Mysteries was. involving a potion that people drank. called kikon and now we understand it. was a psychedelic potion similar to. LSD and and this is the foundation of.

democracy was the Greeks we think our. culture um comes from the Greeks. Pythagoras Plato Aristotle everybody. that we think of as the the epitome of. the Greek culture and the flowering of. the creation of democracy had a psych. elic experience as part of their lives. and it was considered so. important this is kind of funny to say. but they would let women and slaves do. it too wow it wasn't just limited to men. women and slaves could do this and you. were under pain of death to say what.

actually happened you you you should not. share that and so we don't know exactly. what happened but I think that this. um sense that this psychedelic. experience can be interpreted in many. different contexts so I'd like to say. that it's like languages we have um. we're not going to say that English is a. better language than Russian or is a. better language than German they come. from our common human need to.

communicate and according to cultural. context we come up with different sounds. that we make that we call our language I. think religion can be seen like that. that there's a common spirituality and. we come up in different cultural context. I grew up in a Jewish context I don't. think that only Jews go to heaven or. that you know I don't Jews are the. chosen people according to the Bible but. the way I think about it is everybody's. the chosen people yes Jews are the. chosen people but so are you so is.

everybody it it it's kind of an. egotistical kind of you know but it's a. way to make us feel distinct and better. so I I think that the fundamentalists of. different religions are so holding on to. literal interpretations of things that I. think deep down there're super. insecure I I mean it's it's interesting. you say that because I've done I've done. quite a few episodes on psychedelics now. by now and and as much as I shouldn't I.

do go into the comments section and it's. it's always it's always. the how do I say. this it's always the very religious. people. that are against it everybody's for this. it seems like but the but the people. that are that can't see outside of their. religion and have been indoctrinated in. a religion I I hate to use that term.

but those are the ones that they they. can't see the benefit they they they. think oh well just you need Jesus you. need God you need to pray yep you know. what I do need those things. but if that is what you believe in and. and don't you don't you think God or. Jesus. or Allah or whoever you're praying to. don't you think they would want us to be. better yeah don't you think they would. want the pain and the suffering to go. away yeah you know Brother David who I.

talked about he he um talked about how. um Jesus is the son of God but the way. he hears that is so is everybody you. know it's not untrue that we are all the. children of of God but what's untrue is. that one group has a monopoly on. spirituality now most people in the. world would not agree with I'm saying. right now or you know and so I think. there's this um sense about how do we. reach out to fundamentalists and say if.

you let go of the. literalism there will be a. richness that you can experience that. doesn't make you turn away from what you. believed in you know yes we can. see some of the miracle stories may be. reinterpreted uh so my wife actually. this is a good example my my wife worked. for the World Council of. churches um she actually one of her. first jobs out of college was she was a.

lobbyist in Washington but she was a. lobbyist for the. Quakers and and she said that they um. were always you know nonviolent and and. and they define success as if somebody. says we're all in favor of this um. expansion of the military budget. everybody agrees with that then they. would say well we don't agree that was. their success you know that that at. least somebody could hear there was a. dissenting voice then she worked for the. World Council of churches in Geneva and. traveled all over the world during third.

world women development and and this is. a more Progressive group than than the. Vatican in some ways and so they. reinterpreted the miracle of the Loaves. and the fishes so we have Jesus giving. this incredible uh Sermon on the Mount. all right and then there's this um all. these people that uh he wants to feed. and there's not enough food and so all. of a sudden uh this a few loaves in the. fishes the multiplication so now it's a. miracle and it feeds. everybody so their interpretation of it.

was that these Miracle stories are. designed in a way by power structures. and and there stuff that we can't do I. can't make a miracle of multiplying. Loaves and Fishes and stuff but what. they interpreted is that what happened. was Jesus gave a beautiful talk about. how we're all in this together and how. we should share and so the real Miracle. is keep people overcame their. selfishness and shared and then there. was enough for. everybody so I think we can reinterpret.

a lot of these uh Miracle. stories because when you say it's a. miracle of how he created the Loaves and. the fishes I don't have to do that I. can't do that but if you say I should be. less selfish Jesus talked to people. about being less selfish that means I. have to do something mhm and so you. could see how people might move away. from that because then so I I I do think. I'm curious where do you think the. backlash would come from if it does come. I think the backlash I excuse me I think.

the backlash will come from Big Pharma I. don't think that at all really I don't. think that at all and and I guess I'll. say that um what can they do nothing so. so the way the FDA I don't perceive any. pressure right now from Big Pharma on. the FDA to slow us down really not at. all and in fact MK. invented MDMA in. 1912 they tested it in animals in uh.

1927 and they found nothing they didn't. understand what to look for they tried. it again in 1959 in animals again found. nothing but MC is the one that developed. really MDMA now it's in the public. domain so a few years ago some of our uh. people in the benefit Corp um were. trying to think how do we do work in. Europe and so they knew someone who was. a senior person at Merc who was an. expert in um Europe and and doing. research at reg the regulatory systems.

in Europe and she joined one of our. calls for free to help us and this is. their own drug so another thing to say. is that a lot of the drugs that big. Pharma has done for. Psychiatry are generic now now so I. don't think big Pharma is going to come. after us at all I I just don't see it. and so I I think this other part of. um you know the political backlash I I. don't see that either and in fact just.

as an example of that I I'll say that um. you know with Marcus we we were just in. Dallas a few days ago and Governor Rick. Perry was there and he was governor of. Texas for 15 years he was in Trump's. cabinet as secretary of energy and he's. heard all these stories from Navy Seals. that have gone down and got Ian he. talked about Marcus Latrell actually so. this is the story he just told that. Marcus Rell um lived at the governor's. office with him um and and he heard his.

story and he helped him now he's a. member of Congress um but he heard. Marcus talk about doing. Iain now Governor Perry is pro. psychedelics he's helping in many ways. um. I had an incredible meeting with um Ted. nent and his son. Roco Roco Moon and this was just a. couple weeks ago uh well two months ago. something like that um and I had never.

thought that there would be any kind of. common ground that I might have with Ted. nja but there is and it's Roco his son. is interested in becoming a psychedelic. therapist get out of here really yes wow. and Roco set it up between his father. and I wow and and and and what what Ted. said is actually that he could be a. particularly good Advocate because he's. so. anti-drug. wow that's incredible and he's friends.

Ted Nan is friends with Governor Perry. so all of this is to say that I think. that the backlash is not going to come. from um any kind of a political thing I. really don't see it coming from Big. Pharma so so here's just another way why. I don't don't think it from Big Pharma. the way the FDA is. organized um it's to protect um Pharma. companies from having influence because. if Pharma companies could influence the. FDA then they'd all be trying to do that.

against all their other. competitors and so so for example if I'm. trying to make a drug XYZ into a. medicine and I I do a bunch of studies. and it turns out that this drug has. terrible safety consequences and the. says we're stopping this you cannot make. this drug into a medicine some other. company comes and says I want to make. XYZ into a medicine the FDA is not. allowed to tell them that they've. already rejected the drug to somebody. else so they're they're not so when.

people say what does the FDA think about. what you're doing um the FDA doesn't. make announcements about it I can. announce oh we've got FDA approval we've. done this we've done that I mean for. this project or or that they will. announce of course if they approve. things for medic but but the FDA has. designed pretty to insulate themselves. and it's for the benefit of all the. Pharma companies as well so I I think. really it's it's up to us I think um if. we can do this in a careful responsible.

way so I think one of the biggest. problems is and this I saw happening. during the 60s is the government. exaggerated the risks terribly and. denied the benefits and then shut down. research for decades yeah but if we EX. at the benefits and deny the risks then. we will be the cause of problems mhm so. I think so that that's why I try to. always say it's psychedelic therapy and. it's about integration it's not just. about doing the drug and it doesn't work.

for everybody and we have to figure out. who does it work for who doesn't it work. for so I I think maybe I would say and. and I think even the fundamentalists are. often those ones that are most. um conservative in certain ways and. really support the veterans mhm I think. you're right I think it's it's it I. think you're absolutely right it's. people. like like veterans like my story I've. put it out there several times you know. how it benefited me and it it is.

starting to. change conservatives Minds you know. about it because they are seeing the. benefits my my dad saw the benefits my. wife saw the benefits my father-in-law. saw the benefit everybody's every. everybody around me has seen the. benefits I I think that the reason and I. you know a lot more about this than I do. obviously um. but for me I think the reason the big. farmer will get involved is because look.

at all the drugs that treat depression. look at all the drugs that treat you. know pain you know all the thing PTSD. all these things they're all addictive. benzos you know addictive painkillers. addictive sleep aids addictive and it. and and and because. psychedelics and psychedelic therapy is. so effective this it's not going to be. the ongoing thing year you know yeah.

it's only times year year year year year. and it's one couple times maybe a couple. times a year and it's it's done you know. you're yeah it's it works you don't have. to take it I I I I think that's very. true and I think it will result in. hopefully we we see a lot of people that. have well in our studies people have to. get off of their psychiatric medications. because they interfere with the effect. of. MDMA um and many people do not go back.

on them so you know and we are trying to. do a study we will try to do a study one. day um where it seems like um the SSRI. is blunt the effect of. MDMA but uh we need to do a dose. response safety study because it does. there's some evidence to suggest that if. you double the dose of MDMA on people on. ssris they can have a full MDMA. experience and so if that's true the. concern has been serotonin syndrome. would there be overheating would there.

be problems from. that um but if if there aren't if we can. demonstrate that there are not problems. from that then it opens up to a lot of. people who are nervous about getting off. their psychiatric meds to do. psychedelics if they could stay on them. and then they get psychedelic therapy. that reduces their traumas their. symptoms then it'll be easier to get off. these other drugs all right but I do. think that big Pharma makes um most of. these drugs that you mentioned have been. around for decades and decades and they.

are off. patent. okay that makes a lot of sense it. does. yeah yeah I mean we just have to do our. very best so I think what we need to do. is storytelling so what is it that. really will prevent to backlash from. anybody it's people telling their. stories of how these drugs were helpful. or how they were challenging just honest. information I think but people um even. you know fundamentalists have kids with.

depression or depression I was going to. say that too I mean the the opiate. fentanyl crisis is is it's not getting. any smaller and I I think just about. everybody knows somebody that is. that is that is Fallen victim to the to. the Opia crisis you know and it's going. to be it we had in Belmont where I live. right outside it's right next to. Cambridge you know where Harvard is. right next to Boston we've had kids in. the high school die from um overdoses.

yeah yeah and I think it's going to be. you're right storytelling like that uh. have you seen that documentary dosed are. you in that documentary you might be I. actually haven't seen it but I'm. speaking uh it dose is going to be shown. in uh in Arlington uh May 10th and 11th. I think it is and I'm going to speak. there okay yeah it's going to I mean. there was a woman in there that uh got. overcame opiate addiction and um and.

Trevor is the you know the main guy in. there but uh yeah and it worked and as. far as I know she's still clean well. well the the story that I talked about. in my TED Talk uh Tony Macy was one of. the veterans this is. um story so yeah if people wanted to. check out my TED talk but what Tony. said he's a rare story it's an. incredible story so um he had terrible. PTSD from Iraq all that he he disabled. basically a lot from PTSD so during his.

first MDMA experience he had this. realization the MDMA centered him made. him feel more peaceful opened his heart. and and and he realized that there was. something good about his. PTSD that it was the way that he showed. that he honored the memory of his. friends who had died as long as he was. suffering from PTSD he was keeping alive. in his mind the memories of his friends. who were no longer alive and then he. kind of was able to think about the.

friends of his that were no longer alive. looking at him and they were like we. don't want you to squander your life. mourning about us we cannot live We. would like you to live maybe we can live. through you and he said there's another. way for me to honor my friend's memory. by living yep and in that moment he. cured himself of PTSD and then he said. I'm taking opiates but I don't think I'm. really taking them for pain I think I. can do without them and he said I'm. going to stop the opiates and then he.

said I don't even think I need the MDMA. anymore this is it I'm done I'm fixed. and we said you can drop out anytime you. want but would you be willing to do the. two Monon and 10-month and the one-ear. follow-ups at least. which he agreed to do and neither of. those showed that he had PTSD anymore. and this is now about 8 years ago and. we're still in touch and he he he went. to uh Cambodia and to he to um do. service to other people that were.

struggling one of the best ways to get. out of depression is to help other. people and so he he did that for a while. and so it was just this sense that yeah. I don't really need these opiates. anymore and I don't even need this MDMA. anymore which is you know great it's. incredible yeah well Rick we are out of. time and you have a flight to catch but. I want I just want to say it is an honor. to have you here I love talking to you I. I could have gone on for another four.

hours with this so I hope you come back. but if you guys want to donate to Rick. and his efforts to legalize psychedelics. all the links are in the description. below and Rick seriously it's just it's. a real pleasure to meet you and uh I. hope to see you again I really do thank. you Sean it's been a pleasure and thanks. to Trevor for connecting us yeah thank. you Trevor but best of Lu to.

you hey everybody I'm Shawn Ryan click. here to subscribe to the Shawn Ryan Show. YouTube channel for the hottest and most. compelling interviews that you will not. see anywhere else I've also made a. playlist of all the previous SRS. episodes so they're easy to find you can. find that right. here.