Nathan Apffel - Inside the Dark World of Megachurches and Corrupt Pastors | SRS #233

[Music]. Nathan Appel. >> Nice to meet you. >> Welcome to the show. >> Thank you for having me. >> You're welcome. You're welcome. So, I'm. very nervous about this interview, by. the way, but uh I think it's important, but you know, I I'm nervous about it. because we're going to expose a lot of. corruption within the churches. And, you. know, my fear is I never want to you I. prayed about this. I've thought a lot.

about it and I don't want to drive. anybody away from Christianity because. of what's about to be revealed. And so. this was a this was a big decision for. me to do this. And you know, I'm. curious, you know, before we dive too. far into it, I mean, do you feel like. that's happening? Do you feel like. you're driving people away from. Christianity by exposing this stuff? >> No. >> No. >> Quite the opposite. Um, I get to. present, which I hope to do today, the.

authentic Christ. And if you're a. Christian, Christ is the head of the. church, your savior. I get to present. the authentic Christ. I'll say. unencumbered and pulled away from the. machine that we have built on top of. Christ's message. They're two completely. different things. So, I'm here today to. separate the two. One is the head of. accountability which is Christ and then. one needs to be held accountable. So. that's what I'm here to discuss today.

>> Okay. Okay. I mean what what uh what. kind of response are you getting from. the documentary and all the stuff that. you are exposing? >> I mean is it what what kind of. responses? >> Uh well it's it's it's bifrocated right. down the middle. Um, everybody who who has the marbles to. watch the show, every Christian that. that is um I'll say humble enough and. and interested in taking a hard look at.

the system, once they watch it, they. message us through DMs or they'll see me. in an airport or whatever and they just. come up and give me a bear hug. Um. because I think what we've hit is a is a. cultural vein that most people just. can't explain or articulate, but they. know there's something wrong in the. system. And then the system is cloaked. in the concept of Christ as our savior, salvation, and generosity and love. >> And so it's the perfect mask for abusing.

people. and not only abusing people but. abusing people at their most vulner. vulnerable state which is I am here to. like explore my faith and my salvation. and my brokenness and when you meet. someone in that spot there are wolves. that will feed and and Christ speaks. heavily on this in the Bible and so um. there's a I'll preface this right now we. are here to do two things encourage your. faith and encourage your generosity and.

outside of that everything's fair. You know just the words that come to my. mind is trust but verify. >> Yeah. >> Trust but verify. And you know and I. know what you're saying. I mean. what you are about to talk about is. going to. destroy maybe a little strong but it I. mean people put a lot of faith into. their these organizations and you know. when you I mean look we saw this in the.

medical community with co right. everybody put so much trust into the. medical institutions that they that that. that when it came out that maybe this. isn't exactly how it was portrayed to. be. You know, it it it blew the doors. off and created a tremendous amount of. distrust and and and there was, you. know, there's a large number of people. that they just couldn't. everything they know has been destroyed, >> you know what I mean? That in in in a.

system that they have believed in for. years, especially the baby boomer. generation, right? >> Yeah. And so I think I think that you. know the impact of what this is is is. along those same lines where it's you. know people grew up as I mean they grew. up from you know infant to whatever age. they are now and in in particular. churches and organizations and and to. see like the dirty side of what's going.

on in some of these organizations is. going to it's going to be a hard watch. >> Yeah. Well, we're born and raised into. systems and then we we have our biased. lens of reality, >> right? If I go to a mega church in Los. Angeles or or Dallas or New York or. wherever, that is church to me. If I'm. raised in the backwoods of Mississippi, that small struggling rural church is. church to me. If I go to the LDS church, this temple is church to me. And so we.

start the show off with what is church. because those aren't the biblical form. of church. Those are just culture, >> right? It's what it's what wherever I'm. born and raised or whatever um um you. know. group I'm raised in or ethnic group or. whatever or political group that just. shapes and molds what I think is truth. and reality, but that's not necessarily. truth and reality. And so you have to. take a slice of humble pie. And I had to.

do this. And I firmly believe the way. God did it because he knew I wouldn't do. it is he just broke me over and over and. over again until he's like, "You want me. to kick? You want to get kicked again?". You know? And I said, "No." And then he. goes, "Okay, let's rebuild it." And so. then he rebuilt me with this new. unbiased lens. Um, and when you look at the biblical. definition of church, which is e. eklesia, it's literally a gathering of. people. That is the body of Christ. It's. just the people. And then Christ is the.

head of that gathering. Everything. outside of that, everything layered on. top of that, whether that be your. theology on giving, whether that be the. building, the stages, that is all just. tradition of you and I. >> And so that is what we look at is we. need we need to dissect that. And in the. religion business, we go straight down. to the the foundation of it, which is. the IRS tax code in the US. >> So before we get before we get started.

here, I'm curious, you know, are you against all churches? >> What's a church? >> Okay. >> And I'm asking you this question. >> I'm talking about the modernday. >> So the institution, >> the institution. And I'm gonna be very. clear, that is a corporation. >> They file corporate documents with the. state. That is a business. >> So the church can use that business, >> but it's not the church, right? It has. got money coming in and money going out.

So that system that we've built, the. building, the stage, the parking lots, um the lights, the fog machines, the. child care, the coffee and donuts, that. is not in and of itself bad. But that is. not the church. And so I always ask. people, do you go to church? >> And they say yes. And I go, no, >> you are the church and that is a place. where the church can meet up. >> But that is not the church. And so you. have to separate the two cuz one of the. two, well, both have to be held. accountable. The body of Christ needs to.

be held accountable to Christ, but then. the body needs to regulate the business. And right now, we've muddied the two. I. call it an infection. And so it's an. infection that no one has any clear. definitions anymore. And where there's. disease or infection, abuse grows. You. know, bad things happen. And so right. now, we're just at a at a tipping point. where too many bad things are happening. in the system that most people go, something's wrong, and I can't. articulate it. So what do they do? They. just up and leave and say, I'm not a.

Christian anymore. I'm over religion. When I don't think you're over Christ, I. think you're over the system we've built. on top of him. >> Yeah. You know, I mean, it's it's. essentially what an indoctrination, right? Yeah. >> And so, but I do, you know, regardless. of all of the, you know, misuse of the. money that's going on there, there is, in my opinion, there is still good. And. I I I want to hear about all this stuff. I just want to be careful.

>> You know what I mean? And and like I. said, it's all about him up there, right? And so when I was thinking about. this interview, you know, it's it's am I. going to drive people away? Because me. as a baby Christian, you know, I don't. know much. I have talk had a lot of. talks about what the church actually is, which you just described perfectly. You. know, and I do 100% agree with that. With that being said, you know what what. my fear is is I mean me as a baby. Christian and other baby Christians that.

that that you know that I have. influenced or that I've spoken to, you. know, in our journeys of a lot of the. people that come on this show wind up. coming to the Lord. >> and what does everybody do, you know, that's a baby Christian, including. myself. Now, I didn't like the. experience and so I we do we do a Bible. study at my house and that is church to. me where we can ask any questions. without fear. You know, it doesn't.

matter like it you can ask the tough. questions that you'll get the stink eye. in a in a. >> a church or as you call it an. institution or corporation. And so, you. know what basically what I'm getting at. is baby Christians, I mean, where do we. go to learn? we go to the church because. that's what we're indoctrinated into. thinking. You know what I mean? And so. if we blast, you know, the institution, the corporation that calls themselves. the church, you know, are we turning off.

a a a. funnel of people to become educated in. in what this is really all about? That. that is my fear. And so I'm wonder, you. know, that's just what I want to ask you. is, you know, do are you do you think. that you've had an impact that have kept. people from from educating themselves on. this because. >> I mean that that that's something I. would have taken in and I'd be like, you. know what, man, [ __ ] this. I'm not going. I'm not I'm not doing that. I'm not.

going to be a part of this. This whole. thing's a scam. Like it it could have it. could have tilted me the other way. >> is, I guess, is what I'm saying. And we. do see this massive wave of revival and. Christianity. across the globe. >> And uh I mean I I see it almost every. day. You know, more and more people are. coming and and uh and I think that's a. good thing. You know, I think that's. >> Yeah. >> So I just want to be very, you know, careful not to.

>> not to turn people off from that, you. know. >> I get that. Um that's definitely not our. goal. Um, you said something. You said, you know, I'm a baby Christian. If. you're holding a Bible study at your. house, I don't think you're a baby. Christian. I think you cut right through. the bull and you like hit that bullseye. on the board. You might be 3 ft from the. board right now and eventually you want. to get 8 feet from it, so to speak, but. you you're on the bullseye. Can I give. you something? >> Yeah, of course. >> Um,

this Bible. is a gift. >> Oh, whoa. It's printed in 1660. >> 1660. >> That's a King James. And it doesn't come. in one Bible. It comes in two because. it's so big. Um, but you said something. And so this Bible is 49 years, printed. 49 years after the first print of the. King James in England, >> as a gift for you. >> It's got the Apocrypha in it. Um it is.

it has massive wood carvings of. Jerusalem and of the Levites prepping. the tithes ironically. Um. but this is what people need to read. >> They need to read the scriptures, nothing less. >> And so this is where you've one of the. two places you find God is in the. scriptures and in prayer. And if you're. doing those two things, you're far ahead of anybody of 99% of.

Christians. So this Bible was printed in. 1660. >> Man, I don't even know what this this. is. >> Yes. >> Wow. Thank you. >> That's used in the religion business. We. we printed or we scanned um some of the. the wood carvings to tell the story. Um. so that Bible is older than America. Wow. Are you serious? >> Yeah, I think so. That's a gift from. Chris and I, my business partner and I.

>> This is like the coolest thing anybody's. ever given me. >> Thank you. >> That's that's humanity's history. And so. if you have a. um way to see the world and you explore. your faith and why we're here and. why I have consciousness and why I put. value in your life and in my daughter's. life as opposed to just being animal, that book tells the story. um in one of the most profound ways. that's radically shaped the world. It's.

it's shaped everybody's life on Earth. And so, um, Chris and I thought, what. better gift than a piece of history. >> This is amazing. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> You're welcome. And so, I say I I give. that to you right now because you said. you don't want people to turn off from. Christianity, but those scriptures are. all you need. And then you can connect. directly with with God, our creator. And. Jesus says, "Pray and I'll show up. Where two or more are gathered in my. name, I'll be there." And that is the.

true church. Everything else is just. culture and tradition. >> Wow. Thank you. Thank this is. >> You're welcome. >> This is incredible. Thank you. >> Well, when I saw the new set, I was. like, it'd be really cool if he had a. cool Bible sitting somewhere. >> We got a bunch of Bibles. >> Oh, there you go. >> And I might I might these might I think. these are coming home with me. >> There you go. >> So So I can dig in. >> Yeah. >> But that's what everything's Well, everything's based off Christ. And that. book, that collection of scriptures has.

radically transformed the world. And the. problem is very few Christians go back. to that anymore. We Dan Bramer in the. religion business says we put faith in. our faith in God, but not in the God of. our faith. Because if you put faith in. your faith, you're putting faith in the. institution. This is what I'm used to. This is what I was raised in. It's safe. It it'll raise my children in the way I. want them to be raised. But that's not. what God said. Like so we have to put. our faith in the creator and in the god.

of our faith. And as soon as you do. that, things get very dangerous because. it means I am no longer in control of. anything. >> And if I firmly believe in this creator. who's whispering in my ear and guiding. me, I'm going to have to do what he. says. Whether that be um pouring. everything you have into a show 15 years. of of your life. Whether that be making. all a ton of money and be like, "Man, I've you've blessed me." And then him. saying, "Dude, you're going to risk it.

all right now." You know, or hey, like. my brother was a sniper, you know, don't. pull the trigger or pull the trigger. You know, you're starting to listen. And. that's a dangerous position to be in. because you are now a danger to. government. You're a danger to. institutions because you no longer are. appeasing them. You're appeasing God. Whether that be Christianity or Islam or. Buddhism or Hinduism, the God of your. faith is a dangerous God. And so, the.

God of that Bible is a dangerous God. >> Wow. It's a good way to put it. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. Everybody starts off with an. introduction. You ready? >> Yep. Nathan Appel, filmmaker and world. traveler who turned a traumatic brain. injury at 16 into a 20-year odyssey of. documenting stories that make audiences. question everything. Creator of the. religion business, a seven-part docue. series revealing the trillion dollar. machine behind Christian institutions.

On a mission to shine a light on the. business of religion and most. importantly, you yourself are a. Christian. So, how did this actually couple things. couple things we got to get through. here. So, I got a Patreon account. We've. turned it into community and uh they've. been here with me since a lot of them. have been here since the beginning. And. so, uh one of the things that we do is. we offer them the opportunity to ask. each and every guest a question. So, this is from Eric Alger.

Do you feel a filmmaker's responsibility. ends at exposing problems or can it. include building tools that create. change? And from your perspective, do. mega churches and the Catholic Church. struggle with the same accountability. issues or are they worlds apart? >> Mhm. So, let's talk about the problem. A. filmmaker is here to do what they want, right? That is they're here to make a. film. some just expose problems, but. that's not what we were here to do with.

the religion business. Um, and we'll get. into why I feel God led me down this. this course that he did. And he put some. big milestones in my life and and. tribulation in my life to to guide me to. this. So, the docu series presents a. massive problem. The reason why my. business partner Chris came on board is. because we built a tech solution that's. non-governmental that donors and. congregants can use that drives a stake. of accountability right through the. whole system. And so we have a problem. and a solution. So this is we're not.

just here to point out a problem because. there's a lot of um you can't throw the. baby out with a bath water, so to speak. So, it's yes, there's a massive trillion. dollar a year problem, but there's also. solutions to that problem. And we just. want to be um I'll call it the first to. the table to say, "Hey, we can solve. this problem." And it just takes. creative thinking and and um I'll say. God inspired ideas. But yeah, so we are. not here just to point out a problem. We're here to bring a solution. >> You know what's interesting is I I it.

just just came to me. the the guy that. runs my Bible study. His name's Todd and. uh he's he's OG original gangster. Tennessee and and uh has been a preacher. I think damn near his whole life. And he. got ran out of the whatever. He got ran. out of the circle because he was he was. publicly saying in his ministries at at. churches that pastors should not be.

pastors, ministers, you know, all these. figures should not be making any money. >> And uh and so he couldn't preach at any. church. That's who that's who leads our. our Bible study. And then he just got. into he just got into a very small one. Uh I think he's really happy about it. So he's back preaching again. But but he. stands for pretty much exactly what I. think you're about to reveal here. >> I'd like to meet Todd for sure. >> I'd love to connect you. I'd love to.

connect you. >> Yeah. >> But um so how did how did you get into. this whole thing? What what was it. >> into the religion business? >> Into the religion. What did you start. diving in? What was it that caught your. attention that initially grabbed you? >> I was born and raised in in large. churches in California. Loved it. Like. sang in choir, you know, did the Awana. side of things was like the champion of. the three-legged race with my with my, you know, elementary buddy. Um, I loved. it. I went to every summer camp. Always.

got a new girlfriend at summer camp. You. know, it was it's just the the youth. experience of of modern Christianity. Um, we moved to San Diego to little town. called Carl'sbad and. um went to a church. The youth pastor. was awesome. Super outspoken, gregarious, loud. Um, he became the high. school pastor. So, with his kind of, you. know, moving up the ladder, I was aging. and so he was always my pastor. Um, when. I was 16, I had a brain injury. We get.

into that a little later. Um, but that's. what got me into film making. And then. in my 20s, I started traveling the. world. Um, I worked for Oakley, the. Sunglass Company, and Burton Snowboards, and I would just travel the world. working on, um, surf movies, you know, snowboard, ski movies, you name it. A. mentor of mine, Ira Oper, um, hired me, and I've worked with him for almost 20. years now. This this old legend from. North County. And, uh, and we would just. travel the world together. and. everywhere I'd go, I just want to visit.

churches. And then my dad was running a. nonprofit and uh he just likes. adventure, you know, and so most of his. nonprofit work was done in the rural. mountain regions of Central and South. America. And so I would shoot for him. I'd go out and film for him. And you. know, we'd we'd be hanging out with. literal drug runners um in the middle of. the Honduran jungles where you got to. take dugout canoes to get there and. sleep on the ground and um no. electricity. It was I like live for. that. And so I had about a decade of. that where I was in the fllas in Brazil,

so the poorest slums of Brazil and in. the backwoods, you know, literal. pinewoods in Honduras, um, hanging out. with drug runners and you'd end up in. these tin roof churches with no walls. and dirt floors and and then these. seminaries in Brazil that never took a. dollar. There was no focus on money. ever. It was just how do we connect with. our creator and man, I have usually. physical needs. either my daughter or. son is dying or my husband just died or. you know like destitute individuals.

looking for purpose. And so I just fell. in love with these types of churches and. seminaries. And so for 10 years, I. believe God gave me breadcrumbs and I. just traveled the world and I'd sit with. the like there's one story in particular. where I was in Mexico sitting at a. convent and the train that runs from the. border to US is called Altera and and. MS-13 runs it and anybody from Central. America would climb on top that want to. get to the US border and you know MS-13. is raping kids, raping women, you know,

throwing women with new babies off if. they wouldn't let them have sex. they. just chuck the baby off um you know kill. people and there was there was fees and. so I've talked to one girl who brought. her cousin along and she gave her cousin. as payment to get her to the border and. um so we were at this convent and the. convent Catholic convent um we'll take. anybody in whether that be traveler or. MS-13 anybody who's hurting and so this. is when I was like 22 I was shooting. interviews and I had a translator and I.

was sitting there with this MS-13 member. um and he goes goes, "Nathan, the one. thing I want to tell you is you're 10. steps away from murder.". And I and I was like, "What do you. mean?" And he goes, "You will kill. someone with 10 bad decisions." And he. goes, "I was raised on the streets in. Hungary. MS MS-13 took me in." And he. walked me through his life. And he goes, "You are 10 steps away from murdering. someone. 10 bad decisions." And that. like radically transformed how I look at.

whether that be sinners or you know. anybody I meet on this journey. And I'd. rather sit with them because I know. them. And so I came back. They're being. honest with me, right? Oh yeah, you're. going to kill me. Like if you you're. threatening to kill me, you're probably. going to kill me. But a pastor in the US. might smile at me as they're completely. abusing the system, if that makes sense. And so I always say because I I shot. with on Warp Tour, too. So, I would. shoot music videos on Warp Tour and I'm. like, I'd rather hang out with the punk. rock guys who are doing drugs and just.

doing whatever they want because that's. what they sing about, but then I go into. country music or into Christian music. and they sing about the greatest things. and then they're just complete posos's. behind the scene. And so, I'm like, I. was just searching for truth and I found. I found God in these seminaries and. churches in the slums. And then I'd come. back to the US and I'd stand in this $30. million a year church and I'm like, you're not doing anything for your. community, but you did build that new. arena. You know, you did buy that new.

sound system. And then at that same. time, so everything's coming to a head. and I'm getting frustrated. Two other. things are happening in my life. That. youth pastor I told you about was. arrested for essaying his adopted. children. He's still in. >> Say that again. the youth pastor that. raised me that that I was mentoring me. sexually abused his ch his his adopted. children for years. And so that news. comes out and he was being trained to. take over this mega church at this. point. And so he's in jail to this day.

And I'm sitting here going, how is this. pervert. able to sit around children his whole. life and we can parents can look at this. and be like, he's a pastor. they're safe. with him and he's sexually abusing his. adopted children from Africa. And so that happens. My world travels. are happening and then my. brother-in-law, the only pastor who. would ever listen to my questions about. like how does the system work? Like why. why does everybody say you get double.

honor? Why does everybody say you have. the hardest job? And these are juvenile. questions. You know, I'm like 20. He's. the only guy. He's about 10 years older. than me. the only paid pastor that would. field any of my questions. And um he's a. full-time pastor getting paid and he has. a disease called Huntington. So it's a. super rare genetic disease. Um and he's. pretty pretty far along now. Um but he. was the one guy in the system who would. like listen. And so he'd come over and. and we'd sit and we'd drink whiskey on.

my my little deck and we would just talk. theology for hours. And um a couple. years pass and he calls me. He's like, "Hey, I finally understand what you. mean.". And I'm like, "What? What do you mean?". He goes, "I quit my job today.". And he's like, "I got a job at Trader. Joe's." And he goes, "I preached my last. sermon because I went back through. Paul's letters." And I get it. like he. preached unencumbered. of needing anything from the people he. preached to because he wanted to present.

Christ as Christ alone with no. institution or no demand behind him. So. the one guy who inspired really inspired. this whole journey and this is the the. the [ __ ] up part of it like he lost. both his parents young like this guy had. everything to be angry about and instead. the one thing he wanted to present to. the world was Christ and and I'm like. that's a man of God and he's dying today. almost on his deathbed and it's like how. did that guy get painted with so much.

baggage and crap and then a p a person. like me who literally is just a train. wreck wanting to kind. go out with a bang. God's for some. reason keeping his hand over me. And so. all these three storylines and. experiences collided at once. Um and so. 25 I bought the religion business. So 16. years ago I bought the domain and I'm. like maybe I'll write a book one day. I. don't know what I'm going to do with it. Um but that was the catalyst and that's. where I I I tasted righteous anger for. the first time. not only for the. institution but for God. You know, I was.

like, why would you take so much from. this guy who just gives to everybody and. that like that was the catalyst for the. religion business. >> Wow. >> Yeah, >> man. So, their whole world got flipped. upside down with them. Then the uh the. pastor. that mentored you got picked up for. >> that wasn't that that was more just like. I knew it. You know it. Well, no. I'm.

saying like this is the good guys all. you know the guys that look the best. You know the Bible talks about the. Pharisees walking around in long robes. and wanting the respectful greetings in. the marketplaces. You know they come. dressed as sheep but inside they're. ravenous wolves. You know, it's like, of. course, the one person that everybody. thought was, you know, this this man of. God is is this ravenous wolf and he's. making good money. He's, you know, he is. the picturesque ideal of the modern. American pastor. And then the one who's.

being shunned and eventually just leaves. the system sounds like Todd a little. bit, like gets a literal death sentence, you know, >> and yet he smiles in the face of death. And uh I don't know. It's a fascinating. world, you know. Yeah. I mean, let me. ask you this. Are you against are you. against pastors, ministers, any. religious figures? Are you against them. making money? >> And I'm going to set the show aside for.

now. >> Mhm. >> Um, I don't think anybody can take money, especially over um a career, from this system, and not get eaten by. it. And those aren't my words. Those are. men and women that have spent their. entire life in ministry or at a church. and um having discussions for years with. them. They're like, "No one gets away. from it.". >> What do you mean by that? Nobody gets. away from what? >> From getting eaten by the machine.

>> So, this is like this is very similar to. to politics. >> It come in with great intentions and. then you're corrupted and Yes. >> And here's why. Um or I'll give you I'll. give you my thought. I'm a young pastor. Or Sean's a young young man ready to. spread the gospel. He's been. indoctrinated, I'll use your word, into. the system. He's been to seminary. He. wants to quote unquote save souls. And. so he's what's the first thing he's. going to do? He's going to look for a. job. He's going to get that job. And as. soon as he starts preaching, he's going. to tell about Christ and how Christ does.

save you. How Christ is the person you. should mirror. You know, I want to die. in me so Christ lives through me. Like. those are all good things, but then. guess what? Hey Sean, your business, this this institution, the corporation. might cost a let's go small. A hundred. grand a month to keep this thing. operational. >> Mhm. >> Okay. Well, where are we going to get. that money? Well, you're going to look. through scriptures and go, okay, well, right now in culture, we've landed on. the Levitical tithe. And so we go, man,

this tithe is where we're going to get. our money. We want 10%. Or we need 10%. And then you're going to keep preaching. and Okay, Sean, I need you to preach one. message on tithing every eight weeks. >> Yeah. What is I just learned this. tithing today. I had no idea that that. this was a thing. So what is tithing? >> Let's get in. I I want to give this. model if you don't mind me. Sorry. So So. eight one out of eight weeks you're. going to do a sermon on giving. We'll. call it generous giving and tithing. Whether that be the pastors either. preach on tithing or generous giving.

Those are the two ways you can ask. people for money. And so one out of. eight weeks your message is on tithing. Well, shoot, Sean. Our church is. growing. Now our budget's 200 grand. We. have about 350 people that show up every. Sunday. We've got a little, you know, day school, so we got to start asking. for more money. Okay, we're going to. preach two out of eight weeks. Well, shoot. Nathan's church down the street. just got a better sound stage than us, and he's going to start pulling. congregants. So, in the show, we call.

this um religious economic theory. So. Nathan's church is going to pull your. congregants away because they are. literal consumers and so you're going to. need the same same st sound stage I. have. Okay. Well, that's going to cost. us an extra 150 grand. So we're going to. request money above and beyond. So now. on the third Sunday of that 8week block, we're going to give a sermon, but then. the last 5 minutes we're going to. present why we need this new sound. stage. And so your whole presentation of. the gospel slowly tilts to protect the.

institution and the revenues it needs to. survive. >> And no matter what, this is my. conclusion. Every pastor that plays in. that game dies to the game. And and. that's why pastors rightly say pastoring. is the hardest job in the world. We all. leave demoralized. And you do, but it's. it's not your fault necessarily, but. you've been eaten by a machine that. we've built on top of Christ.

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not attacking you. Yeah. I just want to. know how you think. >> I think Paul I you should have a job. outside of your ministry. >> Okay. But if what if somebody wants to. devote all of their time to this, every. bit of it, and there is overhead. I. mean, you know, there and I'm not I I I. don't think it's I don't think it's. necessary. I I I I don't think it's a. bad thing either. You know what I mean? When these churches grow and they want. to expand an online presence, well, then.

they got to get a they got to get people. that know. >> audio video. >> They got to people, you know, to set. that up. They have to have people that. operate that equipment. They have to, >> you know, I think it's a good thing you. go into some some of these places and. they have coffee and donuts, bagels and. [ __ ] like that, you know. >> I don't think it's a bad thing. I mean I. think I think it is a good thing that. people congregate together you know in. in the name. >> and you know and then I think people. want to be comfortable when they worship.

you know they want air conditioning they. want bathrooms they want. >> you know that that's I have toddlers. >> very challenging to take toddlers to. church and actually pay attention you. know and so the place that we were going. to had had little you know daycare thing. >> put them from there. Then we see active. shooters all I mean the Catholic Church. just got shot up yesterday. You know all. those little kids. >> killed. Now you need security because we.

have a big. >> a big a mass of people that are together. and that's what active shooters look at. They want to take the most amount of. people out as possible in the shortest. amount of time to get the biggest. headline. Yeah. you know, so now you. have a security element that you have to. hire other, you know, and and more and. more people are demanding that and. people want their kids to go to a. Christian school or or a Catholic school. or, you know what I mean? And and so. then you got to hire teachers and all. that stuff. And so I'm curious. I mean, do you think these things are bad?

All of them. >> I think they run antithetical to the. message of Christ. Christ said to pick up your cross and. follow me and make disciples of men. >> He did not say to build buildings. And. I'm not saying that's necessarily bad, but everything you just described is. just men building things. And so, let's go down a rabbit hole here for a.

second um about ministry. When you look. at biblical ministry, um, today, if I want to get in the ministry, I'm going to go get a job at a church. My ministry is my daughter. >> Mhm. >> My ministry is to raise her under Christ. centered pr principles. And I will never. abdigate that to anyone else. because I don't know what they're. teaching her. I don't know if it's even.

biblically sound. And so when you look. at the institution, it's not necessarily. bad, but Christ never told us to build. any of it. >> Mhm. >> You and I, I firmly believe, I believe. Christ is in this room. I believe you. and I are connecting as brothers in. Christ. That is the church. We are meant to. uplift our ministry which is our. children, your wife, your husband, that core.

community, that tight bond. And if that. fractalled out through the US, the US. would transform. overnight. But instead, we say, "You. need to come to this building to hear. someone else teach you about the Bible.". Dude, you got a 400-y old Bible sitting. there. It's it's we've missed the mark. We put we've abdigated responsibility to. others to teach us in a in and so we. just keep coming back to the system. I.

always say, man, my favorite thing as a. kid was to watch the Christmas pageant. at my church. You want to know why? Cuz. my dad was the literal freaking flying. angel, you know? And I'm like, man, there's my dad. And uh but what have we. built? Like I don't want to be sitting. in that same type of auditorium watching. the same Christmas pageant when I'm 80. and be like God is good. I want to be. doing dangerous things for Christ. >> Mhm. >> And that is what he's called us to do.

And when you dilute. Christ's message down, he actually didn't talk about much. outside of loving one another, healing. one another, preaching the gospel, and. making disciples. >> Mhm. Everything else is just traditions. of men and Christ. We This has happened in the past. The temple was exactly what we see. today. You go to this building to. worship. Now granted, it was a. legalistic structure whereas we say our.

churches aren't legalistic anymore, but. it was a it was a legal structure. And. they were making money in the temple. square, exchanging money. And Christ. went in and he said, "You've turned my. father's house into a robber's den. That. building was strictly for worship and. instead we made money on it. We turned. it into a capitalistic endeavor.". And I can't read the gospels and lay. that story over modern-day church and. see any correlation.

in regards to like what needs to change. We we've I'm sorry, we've mirrored it. It's ex it's the exact we've repeated. history over and over and you as a. military man and and probably a. historian. History repeats itself over. and over because we don't learn. >> Mhm. >> So we're literally mirroring what's. happened in the past. And so it's when. you read the gospels and this is what. I'll tell everybody when everybody goes, "Okay, what should what should I do, Nathan?". Well, you should read the Bible.

Over over over I think it's only 13% of. Christians have ever even read the book. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> You know, >> I haven't read it all. >> Well, you're it sounds like you're. trying. You're going to get through it. though, right? >> Mhm. >> And that's the thing is once you read. it, um so there's a great study done. there's a mega church in Chicago, one of. the first in in the US, 30,000 seats. Bam. Massive huge show. Every pastor. goes, I want to be that. And so this is. in '98. Um they're expanding rapidly. Thousands of people are pouring in every. Sunday. Tens of thousands are pouring in.

every Sunday. And leadership, I'm going. to tip my hat to them. They go, "Hey, we're not really deepening our. congregants faith. People are coming, they stay for six months, they leave. It's a conveyor belt. And the reason why. we keep our numbers is because a new. person just puts their seat their their. butt in that seat and it's just this. conveyor belt. How do we how do we. retain our our congregants and deepen. their faith?" So, they hired Stanford. and development economists development. economists at Stanford to come in and do. a long-term study. And we have dev. economists that work were that worked on.

the show. These guys are brilliant, these guys and gals. Um, so they do this. long-term study. Their study comes back. with two ways that you can deepen your. faith of your congregants. One, reading your Bible at home alone. Two, sitting in prayer alone. That's it. So, what are the buildings? What are the. soundstages? What are the child care?

What are the coffee and donuts? What are. the escalators? What is that 20 acre. parking lot just to get people in? It's. things we've built on top of Christ. Stanford came back and said, "These are. the two things we've asked everybody.". >> And so when Christ says it's written on. your heart, Sean, it is. I firmly. believe his gospel is written on every. human's heart. And that book is the. guide. And then prayer is how you. connect. And other than that, everything.

is just freaking smoke and mirrors, >> you know? >> Yeah. I mean, I'm just uh. I mean, I think about, you know, I mean, everybody has to make a living and, you. know, somebody that's that's new to. this. And I mean, you know, I don't. understand. There's probably 10% of the Bible I. understand and 90% I don't understand, >> you know, and so I need to, you know, I.

need to look for somebody that can. educate me. With that being said, I look. for multiple, you know, I want all. aspects. I don't want just for sure, >> you know, I don't want just Todd or you. >> or a priest, you know, to teach me about. it. I look I look at it from I want to. hear all the aspects, all the different. angles. I want to understand it, you. know, and so that is what draws me to, you know, what drew me to go to a. church. >> Yeah. You're wrestling with your faith,

right? But the Bible says wrestle with. your faith. >> And so, you know what I mean? But and I. I I personally think that those that. that they should be compensated, you. know, because they have to make a. living. And if they want to dedicate. their life to educating people on the. way Christ was, how he lived, how we're. supposed to live, all of that, you know, good stuff, then if they want to dive. in, then I think that it's it's I think. that it is my responsibility, you know, to make sure that that person.

has a living, they can take care of. their family and all, you know, all of. these things. It's my personal, >> you know, feeling and and and. >> and I don't know, maybe I'm guilty of. this. I've, you know, with this show, for example, you know, this show right. now, this interview between me and you, I'm feeding my curiosity. I want to. know. I know there is a lot of. corruption. I just learned, you know, a. couple days ago that, you know, the norm. seems to be 10% of the funds go to.

>> charity or back to the people or to the. poor, whatever, and 90% of it, you know, goes in their pockets. I think that is. a [ __ ] travesty. >> Yeah. >> You know, that that's happening. But, you know, so where I'm going is I mean, maybe I'm a part of this. I mean, I've. I've brought on I have a lot of mentors. that I've brought on the show. I still. explore Catholicism a little bit and. I've had, you know, several uh priests.

on, Father Dan, Father Gadbury. They've. been instrumental in in in guiding me. And uh my good friend Lee Stroble uh. wrote The Case for Christ. >> I mean, him John Burke wrote Imagine. Heaven. I mean, I love these guys, >> you know, and and uh and I think I. >> when I talk to them, I I think that I. know they have a huge heart. >> and but you know, they wrote they wrote. the book. I mean, there's Lee's last.

latest book up there. That's the first. copy, had them sign it, you know, but I. mean, he's making money off of the. books. >> I'm making money feeding my own. curiosity. I'm going to make money from. this show, you know what I mean? through. advertising and, >> you know, monetization and all of that. kind of stuff. And so, you know, I I. don't I'm curious what your thoughts. are, you know, when I when I bring on. Father Dan, Father Gadbury, um, Dr. Dan Schneider, Lee Strobble,

John Burke, Tim Tibo, you know, I mean, I've learned a lot of stuff from these. guys, you know, in this room, and I. monetize those episodes, and that's how. I make a living, and that's how I. provide for my team that produces this. entire thing. And and so, I mean, am I. am I. am I [ __ ] up? >> No. See, money is not a bad thing in and. of itself. So let me go back cuz you you. asked me a personal question. I do not.

think. pastors should be paid and when you look. at the purest form of the gospels from. Paul and then you look at the dedicay. which is an early apostolic writing from. about 50 to 70 AD is where they pin the. print like they are very concerned these. early apostolic fathers with how people. are literally they say trafficking. Christ. And so I think in the purest. form I I I love the gospel. I will this. morning on our on our Uber ride to the.

gym, my business partner and I like we. just had a great conversation with the. Uber driver out of nowhere. He was. listening to our conversation and he. ended up giving us a book. He had him in. his trunk and like that is church where. these intimate connections happen where. you raise you raise your level of faith. together. Um that is my personal. opinion. In the religion business, we do. not say this is that this should happen. We don't say pastors shouldn't make. money. We look at the system. We look at. the architecture. I sit with theologians.

from all over the world. Oxford, um. Harvard, you know, you name it. And all. of them make money off their faith. >> And um so I'm not necessarily saying you. shouldn't do make money off of that. That's not what I'm saying. But there's. money is such a corrupting factor in a. lot of things. And so that's why in the. beginning you have to separate what is. the biblical church and what have we. built. >> What we've built is not necessarily a. bad thing, >> but it has to be regulated. And in the.

show in the religion business, we show. massive loopholes in the system that are. created because of the legal. architecture. And now the system is so. corrupted that Phil Hackne, who oversaw. the the nonprofit sector at the IRS for. 5 years, said the whole thing's about. the buckle, you know, and David E. Taylor got busted by the FBI yesterday. You know, it's. >> Is this the guy in Dallas? >> Uh he's in um Houston. Yeah, >> Houston. >> Yeah. What happened there? >> What's up? >> I'll let you finish. >> Oh, yeah. I'm just saying the whole.

system is is corrupting and it's because. of the religious economic theory. We're. pitting churches against each other, vying for consumers with no external. accountability, and it just creates the. wild west. And anything goes in the name. of Jesus. And Dan Bramer, who's one of. the smartest men I've ever sat with, um, philosopher and theologian, he goes, "No. one believes something that's stupid, Nathan.". And so Kenneth Copeland who his boys w. you know wave their guns and their fake.

badges at me like he believes what he's. doing and he believes he is spreading. the gospel. Joel Ostein believes it. Um. Ed Young who had me arrested and roughed. up believes it. My brother-in-law who's. dying believes it. And so I don't blame. any of these guys. and and the system. Yes, it's it we live in a capitalist. society where things cost money, but we. have to be able to separate the church. from the building, the true church, the. eklesia, and say this needs to be. regulated. And right now it's.

unregulated in the name of separation of. church and state. >> What happened in Houston? That's cuz. this was this was yesterday. >> Yesterday. Yeah. So, there's an apostle. named David E. Taylor. Um loud, outgoing. guy. Um, you know, he says that if you. talk negatively against him, God's going. to kill you. You know, he's he's that. type of preacher. Um, and he prays off. the most vulnerable. He's raised 50. million bucks in about the last decade. Um, and because there's no.

accountability, he can do what he wants. Um, his home in Tampa, Florida, his. parsonage. So, this is a home paid for. by donors, $8.3 million, 28,000 square. ft, was raided by the FBI. Um he has. about 28 million in real estate. So he's. taking money from the most vulnerable. who Christ is there to protect. technically. >> and he's enduring himself and just.

building his portfolio. Uh he owns a. Bentley Rolls-Royce all in the name of. Jesus. He's got people working for free. at call centers till 4:00 a.m. And if. they don't hit their donation quota that. they have to raise, they have to get on. their knees and beg him for forgiveness. >> Are you serious? >> Yeah. All in the name of Jesus. >> Beg him for forgiveness. >> cuz he's anointed. Sean. And so the system, like I said, when you. when you take the business and the true. church and blend it, it's it's a disease.

because Christ's message is antithetical. to legal systems. He was like he was a. counterulturalist, you know, he didn't. like and here's what I love because we. we're seeing this we call the death. rattle in the show. We're seeing this. happening in Washington right now. Church and state are colliding. So if. Christ really wanted to transform the. world through politics, he would have. marched straight to Caesar and be like, I demand a meeting with Caesar. >> He could care less about Caesar.

He said, I don't care about your. politics and your games. You you guys. deal with that. I have to deal with the. heart. And um and so we have to So we have the. eklesia here who's deal this is to deal. with the heart. And then we have the. business. The business is not inherently. bad, but you have to call it a business. And right now, no one calls it a. business because it's been infected. And. we call this the church. I'm going to. church. You don't go to church. You, Sean, are the church. >> Are the church.

>> And then whatever that is as it morphs. and changes throughout the decades in. history, sure, that's a place where we. can meet and enjoy the donuts and coffee. and listen to cool music. And that's not. inherently bad. But that is a business. and often times a multi-million dollar. business that's run with zero. accountability. So you got to call a spade a spade. >> Mhm. >> You know. >> Mhm. >> Do you have a percentage of. is this all churches or is this is there.

>> specific ones that stick out to you? Is. there is there a happy medium? All of them play by the same rule book. And when you have a rule book with no. accountability. and all the power silos at the top, just like most every pastor will be. eaten by the system, um every. institution, every business will be. eaten by that system. And that's why. reform has to happen within the business.

itself. Um, and so we're we're. begging people to actually deepen their. faith and deepen their giving while. bringing reform to the the machine that. we've built. >> And this isn't inherently bad, but it's. corrupted and dark. It's the it's the. darkest business entity you can start in. the US. We've talked with e ex mafiosos. who spent decades in prison, and they. say, "Nathan, I wouldn't join the mafia. today. I'd start a church. because it's the most dark place you.

can. It's the darkest place you can. play. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Why did this guy's 28,000t home in Tampa. get raided by the FBI? >> Um, enough people. So, this is where you. can finally This is the the the little. sliver of hope is if enough people. complain to the IRS or the FBI, they. will open an investigation. and our good. friends, our PIs that worked on the. religion business at the Trinity. Foundation out of Dallas, they' in 2018. put together a massive packet and sent.

it to the IRS and said, "Hey, you guys. have to look at this scammer. Like, he's. just ripping people off." And this is. the problem is it took 6 years, 6 and a. half years for the IRS and then the FBI. to finally go, "This is a total poss.". Um but but there's people who have. disappeared going to his church. Missing person reports and we see this. across the US too. These apostles will. find vulnerable people will tell them to. move across the country and come work.

for them and eventually they disappear. into trafficking rings. >> I mean do you have proof that that's. that is the. >> we've got missing persons reports and. you just never find them again. Their. cars will be in parking lots. >> I get that. I get that. >> Yeah. >> What I'm asking is, do you have proof. that it was the church that did it? I. mean, we're talking about vulnerable. people. Vulnerable people. Those are. people that are, >> you know, in in poverty. Many of them. addicted to drugs.

>> You know what that leads to? That leads. to do me the sexual favors and I'll give. you drugs. Then it turns into I'm your. pimp, I'll give you drugs. >> I mean, that could that that could be. totally outside the church. I mean, there's a lot of things, you know, that. that that happen to the most vulnerable. >> because of the situations that they're. in. That doesn't necessarily mean that, you know, that the pastor. >> sold them into trafficking, unless you. have proof. Do you have proof? >> I don't have proof of that. Well, I'd. have to talk to our PIs, but, you know,

those are those are firsthand accounts. >> Um, but I'll tell you right now, there's. a church in Arizona that literally has a. tunnel that goes from the church under. the border to Mexico. What? >> Mhm. >> What church is that? >> I'm not I'm not not going to say. But. there is there is that's how corrupt. some of these institutions are. >> Why don't you want to say? >> Because I that's for another story. We're we're developing that story right. now. But there is um you can use the.

name of God to do horrific things. And. that doesn't mean that God that God. Christ is corrupt. It means man is. leveraging his name to do awful things. >> And we can look through history on that. one, you know, and then let me rephrase. that too. Man can also use the name of. Christ to do amazing things. >> Mhm. >> But right now that the architecture of. the system is so dark that it just. creates a a so there's a book called um. the wisdom of psychopaths and it talks.

about psychopathic tendencies and it's a. character type. you know, it's a. clinical diagnosis and you can either. end up in jail for mass murder or you. can be the CEO of some billion-dollar. hedge fund like that. There's just a a. mental type that they classify as. psychopaths. One of the top five jobs. for psychopaths today is clergy to. become a pastor. Are you serious? >> Because it's unlimited authority or. potentially unlimited authority. It's. power. It's dominion over people. And. that's the that's the the the character.

type of a psychopath is attracted to. jobs like that. It's a great book. It's. written by a doctor who studied. psychopaths for his whole career. >> All right, let's dive in. Let's dive in. >> Yeah. >> Where do we start? >> Uh. >> let's go into this. Let's let's go with. some examples. >> Okay. >> How about these How about this couple in. Nashville? They had a TV show. I don't. know much about it cuz I don't watch. this stuff. I really don't watch. anything. >> Um, but you know what I'm talking about.

Trump just pardoned these people that. went to went to prison for I believe it. was tax evasion. >> Yeah. I don't I don't I can't talk I. don't know much about that story. Like. again these stories are rampant across. the US. >> They're everywhere. >> And so like let's take for example. um a gentleman named Ed Young in Dallas. >> The guy that almost had you arrested. >> This is the guy that had me arrested. >> Had you arrested? Um, everybody's always. like, "How do you pick your targets, Nathan? Like, who do you go after?" And. I'm like, "I don't like I I am I have to.

I've asked God, you open the door, I'm. going to walk through it." So, I was in. Dallas visiting my dad and I wanted to. go to church. I've gone to church every. Sunday all over the US. I just visit. churches. And um I walk into this sat. what what is a satellite campus. So, it. means this pastor has multiple buildings. all over Dallas. His main campus is in. Grapevine, but I go to one in just. outside Frisco. And I show up um nice. little building, probably seats 500.

And pull into the parking lot, there's. cameras all over the parking lot, you. know, all his all his banners are all. over there and his his his branding. I. walk in, I do my standard thing, grab a. donut, cup of coffee, sit in the pews, sing some songs. This one, they don't. even have a pastor preaching. They just. lower the screen and I watch the pastor. preach from his other main campus. And. so I'm like, "That's kind of impersonal, but whatever." And I get up, walk out, um go to my car, and I start the the. rental car and it just doesn't turn. over. And I'm like, "What the heck?" And.

so it's kind of chugging and it almost. sounds like blowing bubbles in water. And I'm like, "I think someone cut the. catalytic converter out of the rental. car." So I look underneath and boom, the. catalytic converter is gone. And so I. snap a picture and I'm like, "Dang." So. I just go back inside and I'm like, "Hey, someone cut the catalytic. converter out of my car. In your parking. lot, there's cameras all over the place. Could I just get the feed so if my. insurance wants to see what happened?" I. can just send it to them. And they give. me a a a card with their website and. they go, "Go to our website. There's. anformational sheet that you can fill.

out and we'll contact you through that.". I'm like, "Cool." So I I send them a. message. Hey, my catalytic converter got. cut out, you know, this date, this. location. Is there any way you can just. get me the feed for my insurance? crickets. And I'm like, okay, a month passes, two. month pass, and I'm like, this is weird. Send him another message, crickets. And. I'm like, this is ridiculous. A year. passes and we're now we're in the I. wasn't even filming the show at this. point. And now we're in like the thick. of it. And I'm like, I'm going to send. him another message. Send him another. another message. Crickets. Eventually,

the message board just completely. disappears off the website. So, there's. no way to contact this church anymore. And so, um, about a year ago, I'm. traveling with my camera operator and. I'm like, let's just see if we can get a. phone number and call them to see if we. get want to give them money, if they'll. answer us. And so, sure enough, I find. an accounting number. So, I call the. number and I say, hey, my name is. Nathan. I don't lie to anybody. And I. say, I've been to your church a couple. times. Um, I live out of state. How can. I give you money? Within 24 hours, boom,

I get a call back. Nathan, let me tell. you how to give stock, how to give land, how to give jewelry, how to give cash. Like, they are ready to take your money, but they're not ready to help. And so, this is when I'm like, "Okay, I'm going. to start doing research on this guy.". And so, I call our our PIs and I'm like, "Hey, what do you have on Ed Young and. Fellowship?" And they said, "The only. way you can find any real legal material. is through lawsuits." And so this is a.

big differentiator in the nonprofit. sector that everybody has to realize. A. secular nonprofit files what's called a. 990 with the IRS. This form is. anformational sheet that you are legally. held to account to. So if you lie on. this form, you're going to get busted. So if if Sean, you have a nonprofit and. I donate to you and I feel like. something shady is going on and the IRS. comes out and audit audits you and and. realizes that you lied on your 990, they. can hold you accountable. So, it's. strictly an accountability form that. says, "Hey, here's how Sean's nonprofit. is using the money." Churches do not.

have to file that form. >> really. >> So, there is no legal document that any. church is held to account to. So, what. that means is financials are whatever. leadership wants it to be. And so, right. there, there's a massive breakdown in. accountability. So, um I call the church or no, I'm sorry. I. call my PIs and my PIs are like, "Okay, the only document we have is from 2005, I believe. Um, and it's because someone. sued the church got sued and so they did.

discovery." So, they have what's called. a housing allowance list. And so, this. is really unique to churches in the US. Pastors can take a tax-free housing. stipen if they want. And so the language. in the IRS code is something along the. lines of your tax-free housing allowance. has to be within means. So it's it's a. gray definition which means if you've. got good lawyers, well Sean, you're. you're a celebrity. You should live like. Oprah, you should be able to live in a. 40 $40 million home or a 28,000 foot.

home in Tampa or whatever. And so you. can offset your tax burden in a major. way if you take more payment via housing. allowance and not via salary, if that. makes sense. So this housing allowance. document showed that this pastor was. taking $240,000 a year in a housing. allowance on top of his salary. And so. there was my breadcrumb. I say, "Okay, this is 20 years ago. I wonder what his. housing allowance is today." And you. can't find that out. And so my PIs do.

some digging. They say he's got about 15. million in real estate, personal real. estate now, buried in LLC structures, but he's got this he's got a house, a. beachfront house in Florida. He's got a. $6.5 million home in Dallas. So, his. mortgage is about 200 grand a month, not. 240,000 a year. So, you know, I just. estimate and I say, "Okay, he's got to. be getting a couple million a year in a. housing allowance." So I call his lawyer.

who's the general counsel of the church. and ironically he's the CFO of the. church. So not only is their lawyer the. CFO but then he gets ordained. So Ed Young ordains his lawyer. Why. would Ed Young need to ordain a lawyer? Because anybody who gets to take a. housing allowance has to be an ordained. minister of that church. So now I'm thinking, well, maybe his. lawyer takes a housing allowance, too.

And so I call the lawyer and I'm like, "Hey, here's the data I have." And it's. all on the show. And I'm like, I'm in. town. I'd love to hear from you cuz we. just want to know how the housing. allowances, you know. Oh, and this is. the kicker. I've been donating to his. church the whole time. And so as a donor. and as someone who attends your church. while I'm in Dallas, I want to know. where my money's going. and if you're. taking exuberant housing allowances that. no one knows. And so sure enough, the. lawyer never calls me back. So I decide. to go to church on Sunday and I let him.

know. I'm like, "We're coming on. Sunday." And so I show up and uh I I I. don't show up with guns bl, you know, with cameras all over the place. I just. have a pair of glasses that record. And. so I walk into the church. They had me. pegged before I even made it through the. front door. There was two security. guards out front. Um Todd, the head of. security, literally passes me as I'm. walking through the door. In the show, you see him touch his earpiece. I walk. into their store and I buy Ed's book. Um. I buy I want to buy a sweatshirt um that.

he's made. This is his design and I want. to get a coffee at his coffee shop. Before I even make it to the register, a. gentleman comes up and says, "You can't. buy this stuff. We need to go outside.". So I walk outside and again there's no. cameras with me. I just I'm wearing a. wire and I have my glasses because I. assumed something like this would. happen. And they go, "You need to. leave." And and I said, "Why?" And I. said, "I came to church. I wanted to buy. your goods. You're a business. I want to. buy your goods. I give to you." And they. go, "That doesn't matter, Nathan." And I. said, "What doesn't matter? The fact. that I give to you, like you, you should.

care about my giving and want to make. sure you're stewarding it properly." And. so I said, "I'll leave. Who can I talk. to in accounting because I just have. some questions about housing allowances. and salaries?" they would give me no. information, but they said, "We will. have you criminally trespassed if you. don't leave." And so I said, "Okay, so. if I leave, you're not going to. criminally trespass me." And they said, "No." So I go on my way, but I had signs. in the car cuz I figured, hey, they're. going to kick me out. They're not going. to want to talk. So we leave, we kind of. regroup. We wait for the second service.

to end. And I'm like, "Okay, I'm going. to go stand in the parking lot because. they won't give me any information." And. my sign, all it says is, "What is Ed. Young's housing allowance today?" and. then Ed Young, what is your salary? That's it. These two little signs. So, I. walk onto the parking lot um before I. even make it twothirds of the way to the. parking lot. And all I'm doing is. standing out front. Um I'm surrounded by. probably 15 armed guards. And these guys. are I'm not military, but these guys are. rookie. Everybody's wearing different. outfits. You know, you can tell their.

badges are their security. Some of it's. bought from Amazon. Some are armed, some. are not. They all have colored lapels, so I figured the lapel means you're. either armed or you're not. Um, and they. immediately bring a a sheriff up and. they're like, "We're going to arrest. Nathan for criminal trespassing." And. I'm like, "All I want is who can I talk. with in accounting?" And the cop doesn't. the sheriff doesn't arrest me. One of. his private security grabs me, takes my. phone, my property, hands it to another. private security, like tore tenons in my.

arm, so I have to have surgery on my. elbow, rips me around, and they. immediately say, "Get him off the. property." And I'm like, "Why? You just. you this looks bad." And literally, there's 20 armed security guards. surrounding this this 165lb dude with. two signs. And uh so I get arrested. I'm. sitting there on the curb. Well, I'm not. arrested. I'm detained at this point, but not by but not by the actual PD. And. it's in the show. I give this awesome I. just talking to him and I'm like, "Look,

it you guys believe you're doing the. work of Christ." And I'm like, "I can't. hate you for that." Like, you think. you're doing good just like I think I'm. doing good. So, we're on the opposite. side of the same coin. Um, but I'm like, "Look at this. No one knows his housing. allowance. He has a massive property in. Florida that no one knows about. The. congregation doesn't know about it. They've paid for that. Um, he has. bulletproof Range Rovers that he just he. jets away from church and we saw this. He jumped curbs to get away cuz he knew. that I was near the property. And I'm.

like, here's a dude driving away in. bulletproof Range Rovers. Literally, we. create he created this world in his own. f in his own head. And all I wanted to. know was your housing allowance that. donors are paying. And so that's what I. mean is the machine eats you. I firmly. believe when Ed was young, he got into. this thinking he wanted to save souls. He wanted to present Christ to people. And now he's got 20 armed securities. around me in his security office. We got. word from some of his security officers. that there's a a photo of me, a 12 x 12.

in picture of me in their security. office and my code name was Hot Dog. And. so I'm like, I can't I wish I could have. gotten their their walkie, you know, channel because it's like hot dog is. officially on the premises. And I'm. like, all I'm here is because Ed. wouldn't talk to me. The general. counsel, who's also the CFO, won't talk. to me. And so, I'm just here for one. simple question. What is your housing. allowance that all these donors pay for? And to this day, unless they sue me for. making the show, no one will know his. housing allowance.

And so, that's the problem with the. machine at this point is you get gobbled. up. And he's he he's he runs a something. called C3 Global, which is a a church. planting network. and his lawyer is also. working with that. And so you start. these what's called auxiliaries, conventions or associations, you start. these side businesses as churches and. that's also in the same darkness that a. church is in. So as what's happened is. as business leaders and there's this big.

like entrepreneurial spirit now in in. the Christian church. It's we're I'm an. entrepreneur and a pastor. Well, no. You're just a really smart businessman. who's a Christian, but you're leveraging. your faith and you're starting a church. or or an auxiliary to the church to play. in the darkest space possible. And a. great example of that is the Church of. Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the. the Mormons. So, in '98, they had a couple billion sitting and so. they're like, "Hey, we we want to start. an investment arm." Um, so they start an.

investment arm called Enzyme Peak. Advisors. It's a couple billion. um they shove it in the market and. because there's these additional terms. in the IRS code in the and again this is. lobbying the government so this is why. they run very like parallel lanes the. government and religion um the LDS. church petitioned the IRS to add the. term auxiliary in front of church in the. 60s and it was men's clubs back in the. day so men would meet up smoke cigars.

you know hang out talk and they're like. this is technically church and so the. IRS added this term auxiliary to their. definition. Well, there's no definition, black and white definition of what an. auxiliary is. So, if there's no. definition, anything can be an. auxiliary. So, the LDS church registers. their investment fund as an auxiliary, which means that auxiliary is. technically a church. It gets the same. benefits that the church gets. Flash. forward 27 years, they're worth 300.

billion. And it's all for-profit ventures. registered as churches. >> Wow. 300 billion. >> 300 billion in market assets. The LDS. church will hit a trillion in market. assets in the next decade. All under the. guise of a religious institution. And. the crazy part is not $1 of that now. it's a hedge fund because they're. hedging that not a single dollar of that. fund has ever gone to humanitarian. purposes or even the church.

So if you're a shrewd businessman, you. start a church and you can do whatever. you want. And so you wonder why, oh man, Christianity is getting a bad rap right. now. You know, it's because oh there. these pastors, you know, sexually. abusing kids. No, it's because the whole. system is broken. the legal system. So. that's what needs to be reformed. >> Yeah. I mean, we we see this all the. time. I mean, pastors with runways. behind their house, >> four private jets.

>> I mean, yeah, >> I know it's insane. >> Well, the private jet can be registered. as a house of worship in Texas in Texas. So, you don't pay tax on the jets. >> Huh? It can be registered as what? >> As a house of worship because you pray. on it. So a private jet, a $20 million jet can. be tax is taxree because it's a house of. worship. >> Is that an auxiliary as well? >> Well, it's just an asset of the of the. church, but it's it's a house of. worship. It's part of it's your building. basically. The IRS sees it as your.

building. >> So with these loopholes, you could. basically. purchase just about any any vehicle, any. plane, any piece of real estate. >> Yeah. >> Any building. And a lot of times like so. the LDS church is now the second largest. private land owner in the US. 2.3. million acres. >> Wow. >> Taxfree. All under the guise of religion and. freedom of freedom of religion. >> And none of this goes to.

>> they have farms. And this is where the. LDS church is very interesting and we. can get like I really want to dissect. the LDS church with you. um. they have farms and so they say, "Hey, we're building our storehouse." So this. is this is Old Testament um Torah. So. we're going to have goods and supplies. in the storehouse sufficient in God's. storehouse. So they're quoting Malachi. Um and if you've tithed to us, if you've. given your full tithe, you're going to. get to enjoy the benefits of our.

storehouse if there's a natural disaster. or if Jesus comes. So, they're building their conglomerate, demanding you give 10% of your gross. revenue to them, and then you'll be able. to benefit from us if something happens. And here's the kicker. If you don't give. your full tithe, you don't get to. benefit. >> How do they know? >> Oh, they keep they look at your bank. bank statements. >> They turn in their bank statement. Every. year at the LDS church, you have to go. in and I can't remember what it's. called, but it's a meeting with your.

bishop and you have to discuss your. finances. And he says, "Have you been a. full tithe payer?". And if you haven't, it's literally. you're docked. And if you're not a full. ti titheer, you don't get your temple. recommend. And if you don't have your. temple recommend, you don't get to get. to heaven with your family. So, we've built these institutions, and. I'm going to give the benefit of the. doubt here, with good intentions, and. they've become the middleman. of God's resources. And here's here's a. question. Christ told to give to two.

things. Do you know what those two. things are in the Bible? >> Render to Caesar the things that are. Caesars's. So, pay your taxes. And then. give to God the things that are God's. Churches don't pay taxes. And then. they've So this is Christ talking to. you, Sean. Render to Caesar the things. that are Caesars's and give to God the. things that are God's. Well, the church. has moved right in the middle of you. giving your resources to God and said, "We'll disperse these for you." Christ.

never told you to give it to an. institution. He never go, this is the. big one, too. He never told you to give. it to the house of God. He never told. you to give it to the temple because you. are the temple. He told us to pay taxes. >> Yeah. >> A little disappointed in that. >> Yeah. Well, well, because he said, "I. don't care about Caesar. Caesar's going. to come and go. >> Taxes are going to go up and down. Don't. care about worldly things." He's. literally saying, "Just pay. Whatever he.

asks you, pay. Don't stress it." But, so. this is an interesting conversation. about so why was tax exemption created. in the first place? So in 1913, the government is looking at. all these businesses out in the US and. they say, "Man, there's about 12,000. organizations, 12,000 businesses. building what what we call social. capital." So they're in their local. communities cuz there's no TV, there's. no internet, you know, and there's no. planes yet. So your world is what's.

really around you within your 40 mile. range really. And so there's these. 12,000 organizations building social. capital. And the idea of this is, hey, even if Nathan doesn't have kids, I want. the park down the street to be nice and. safe for other people's kids. So raising. social capital, local social capital, means I'm helping my local community and. driving what development economists call. human call human flourishing. So what. businesses in our community are raising. the level of human flourishing? And. that's what they defined as the. nonprofits. So they said there's these.

unique businesses that are strictly. there to benefit the community. They're. not after capital profits. They're. really here for the benefit of the. community. So we're going to do this. special carveout. And this is 1913. And. we're going to call the nonprofit. sector. 12,000 organizations and this. includes churches got that exemption in. 1913. Today there's 1.9 million nonprofits. So, it's an explosion in the sector and. it's tied to technology. So, every time.

a tech boom happens, the nonprofit. sector. explodes because people see it as a way. to offload money because the the the the. regulations are archaic. Um, but so. there's about 12,000 organizations. This. includes religious exemptions. Flash. forward a couple decades and the IRS has. to in effect now define a church because. churches are now saying, "Hey, we're. nonprofit. We're building local social. capital." which they were and they and. some are right. So it's we're helping. the homeless, we're you know housing the.

unhoused, we're helping foster care, single mothers. We're really the. backbone of our community which churches. which these institutions because the. remember the church is just the people. but the building itself was really for. the community. They do community meals. together. They were there for the. community. So the IRS in effect had to. define a church so they could grant tax. exemption. So, this always blows people away. The. IRS used one organization as the model. to shove every religion into. And that.

one organization was the Salvation Army. So, they looked at the Salvation Army. They said, "The Salvation Army is doing. good things. Let's go in." And they. created 14 points and said, "This is. what the Salvation Army does." So, this. is what church is. >> What are those points? Every church, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, you name it, is tucked into. that same 14 points. And it is you need. a house of worship. So, you need a.

physical location. You need a um. basically a board of elders, someone to. steer it. You need a creed or a form of. worship. Um you need child care so you. can raise the next generation. So when. you look at churches today, it's they're based solely off these 14. points. So when you say it's not bad, it's not. bad, but that's not church. It's. literally just replicas of the Salvation. Army. And then you apply a level of.

entrepreneurialism on top of that and. man, the sky's is the limit, if that. makes sense. >> And so now today, there's 400,000. churches in the US. So, if you lump. Starbucks, McDonald's, Taco Bell, Burger. King, basically every fast food. franchise into one pile, there's still. more churches than all those locations. combined. >> Wow. >> And so, um, people have just seen this. this 14point checklist is is there's two. things. One, it's a way to abuse the.

system. And then two, it's which we I. really want to talk about. It's taking. the potency out of religion. because it's put you in a box. And so, um, I had someone from the CIA call me a. few months ago and, uh, they were like, "Hey, Nathan, what do you know about the. 14point checklist?" And all I know is. what the head of the IRS, the nonprofit. sector told me. And so I'm like, "Here's. the history of it." Um, and they go,

"Okay, good." But it wasn't IRS that. created that. >> Who was it? >> The CIA. And I said, 'Wh would they do that? And. they go, 'Well, and this this individual. was a Christian. They go, Christianity. is dangerous. Yes. And I said, 'Yes. And. they go, Islam is dangerous. Yes. And I. said, 'Yes. And so they go, why not put everything. into a box that you can control? So the carrot that the government uses.

to get religion into that box is t is. tax exemption. So, you sell your soul for 30% to play. by these 14 rules. And you don't even. have to you don't even have to abide by. all the rules. Just a just a handful of. them. So, here's what's funny. You know. what else is a church? The Hell's. Angels. What? Yeah. They're registered as a. church. So, this box, knowingly or unknowingly, took the potency of religion away.

because Christianity is extremely. dangerous. Look what it did to Rome. Within 200. years, Rome was done. Constantine became. a Christian. Constantine's like, "Hey, I'd rather hang out with these guys.". >> I control them through these 14 points. >> It It takes the Yeah. It's basically you. have to play by these rules if you want. tax exemption. And so that's why every. church today in America looks the same, identical, whether that be Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, they all have the same.

building, the same group, the same. creed. Everything is the same because. they play by the same rules. So, you've. put every faith into this box and now. the box can just be tucked on the shelf. And whatever politician is in power, they can just take the box off and do. whatever they want with it. And um. Christianity, true Christianity, like we. talked about earlier, is dangerous. because you are not lorded over by Trump. or Biden or the US like Christ is my. Lord and what he says I should do, I do. And that is dangerous to institutions.

Mhm. >> And I use the analogy of the early. church as an organism. And so. organisms are organic and they move. through systems. Humans like to build boxes. That's what. we're good at. You know, we we build. buildings, we build systems, we we build. things because it's safe in things. The. 14-point checklist is safe. I can go to. this church for the rest of my life, sing the same song. It's get the same. donut. Maybe I'll change it up different. flavor every other Sunday or something, you know, but same cup of coffee. I'll.

watch my kids be raised by these by. these instructors that I don't know. because hey, it abdicates my role as a. father to train my daughter up in in in. Christc centered values, but I'm safe. there. And hey, man, you know what? I'm. going to give you a percentage of my. money cuz you're right, Sean. This does. cost money. And you know what? Hey, I'm. going to sponsor that distended belly. from Uganda, that that poor little kid. over there, and I'm going to give him 20. bucks a month. I don't know if the money. ever gets to him. And that's what we. explore in the show. That money usually. doesn't get to the kid.

>> It doesn't. >> No. But I'm going to give my 20 bucks. and pin it on that wall and be like, "Ah, you know, Ramsy's, I got Ramsies. for the month." And then that money gets. torn down, put into a bucket, set aside. Oh, here's another wave of kids. And all because we live in this very. safe box. And the Christianity in that book is so. dangerous. And that organism can move. that or that that that eklesia that body. if it's nimble it moves through systems.

And that's why Christ said give to. Caesar I don't care because my my gospel. is going to move through this. institution and wash through it. And. that's why Christianity literally just. dominated the world in those early. couple hundred years because the message. was so pure and organic nothing could. stop it. And you see that in the. Ayatollah too, right? Religion can be. weaponized and religion is dangerous. whether that be for good or ill. And so, yeah, Christianity, we've lost our bite. and we have lost our our we have lost.

the thing being the thing which is. Jesus. And instead, we say, "Well, sing. about him." You know, >> man, let's take a quick break. When we. come back, I'd like to get into more. specific examples of of of how the money. is being used, >> who specifically all that kind of stuff. >> Yeah. And then I want to talk about the. the the positives because there's a lot. of potential positives. >> I want to talk about the positives, too. So, cool.

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All right, Nathan, we're back from the. break. So, we want to get into some big. stats, you know, overall stats on, you. know, how much money is going out, how. much they're saving, how much they're. giving, whatever, whatever statistics. statistics you want to share. And then I. want to go through specific examples of. of who you've seen with, you know, inside the corruption through all your.

research. So, we'll start with the big. stats. Let's do that. >> So, the religion business looks at the. nonprofit sector as a whole, right? And. and like I said, we go down to the legal. architecture. Um we talked about some. history there. About 1.5 trillion a year. is given by individual donors to. nonprofits. >> 1.5 trillion. >> trillion with a T. >> That's just individual donors. >> Individual donors. This does not include. government grants. So this is far bigger. than the US military. And it's kind of a.

black box. No one knows where that money. goes. So it proves one thing in. particular. Americans are really. generous people, you know. >> So these are this is 1.5 trillion. These. are these are people inside the. congregation. People that are going to. the church that are just donating every. week. >> The nonprofit sector as a whole. So. let's dial it down. So Christians, global Christians give about a trillion. dollars a year to their churches. 600. billion comes from America. So about 600.

billion is given every year to Christian. churches. about 500 billion is given. every year to nonprofits via American. Christians. So you're looking about 1.1. trillion in American giving and then add. another 400 billion on top of that to. global Christianity because I'm. interested in people like in the. religion business we look at the. nonprofit sector and then a lot of. people go Nathan why are you attacking. or just looking at Christianity and I.

say well I'm looking at Christianity. because I hold my faith to the highest. standard. I don't care about Islam. I. don't care about Buddhism. I care about. my faith. Um, so a trillion dollars a. year is given by Christian Christians to. Christian institutions. Another 500. billion is given by Americans to. nonprofits here in the US. So it's a. massive. pile of money. Um, so where does that. money go? About 44 cents of every dollar. that you give to a church goes straight.

to salaries today. >> 44 cents. 44 cents of every dollar just. goes straight to salaries. 25 cents goes. to just buildings. and then only 6 cents of every dollar. ever even leaves the institutional walls. to go to the causes that Christ told us. to support. The needy, the sick, the. hungry, the thirsty. >> It's not even 10%. It's%. >> not even 6% of all donations. Let's just. What were the numbers on Christianity.

again that that are just going to the. church? >> A trillion. >> one trillion dollars globally. >> Globally 600 billion nationally. >> and only 6% of that goes to charity. >> Well, it's untraceable. So this is this. is voluntary data given. So remember. there's no 990s that churches file. So. you don't know what they give. So 6% is. kind of like the best potential outcome. because they're giving you that. information or they're giving these. statistitians this information. And so.

that's not 6% creating impact down the. value chain. So that's not 6 cents of. every dollar helping that orphan in. Africa or that you know um [ __ ] in. Honduras. No, no, no. That's just 6. cents making it outside the walls. And. usually what's happening now because one. thing I want to touch on is these terms. auxiliaries like we talked about with. the LDS church. Then you also have. convention in association. And so a lot of times now it's just one. a church passing off that 6% to another.

business that they own. So we don't even. know if it. >> serious. Yeah. What would these these. businesses could be anything auxiliary? >> Yeah. So basically what what we're. seeing now is in the last 25 years. churches have become businesses. You. know smart entrepreneurs and I tip my. hat to them are starting to take over. churches and they're seeing the. opportunity to literally build. conglomerates. So like let's say Chris, my business partner has a nonprofit, a. secular nonprofit that files a 990. It.

works in the mental health space and he. and I are good buddies. I run Nathan's. church. It's massive. And I say, 'Hey. Chris, why don't we bring your secular. nonprofit under the fold of Nathan's. church and that church, that business. now, your business is a church, and you. no longer have to file 990s. And the excuse is, oh man, that frees us. up from paperwork and, you know, from. from the government, from big brother. looking down on us. But what it also. does is is turn that organization.

completely dark. And so churches now are. starting to acquire businesses and. bringing them under their fold. And then. just because those businesses are are. wrapped into my church, they all become. churches themselves. And so now I can. give 6 cents to Chris's church and say, "Look at all the or his business, which. is now a church, and say, "Look at all. the good work we're doing.". And so I can also take a salary from. Chris's business now. And no one ever. knows about it. And so that's what we're. seeing in organizations like ARC and.

these church planting organizations is. their whole strategy is to teach you how. to grow your business, how to grow your church. You're not here. to save your souls. Yeah, of course. we're here to save souls, Sean, but. their tagline is launch. We want you to. launch big, which means you need a sound. stage. You need the big flashy lights. You need people in your seats. So we're. going to teach you how to do that. And. then hey, you can also start starting. these other businesses. I mean, these. these are so. I mean, my mind goes to I don't know.

why, but it goes to I mean, a lot of. these guys have private jets. >> A lot of them have more than one private. jet. >> Mhm. >> You know, and I don't I don't even know. who we're talking about it, but uh you. know, there's the one guy that's got the. >> Kenneth Copeland is a great example. >> Runway behind his house, four jets. >> Yep. I mean, so is that, you know, how. it works with these guys, you know, and. I'm not just business in general is you. buy a private jet, >> a yacht, >> you charter it out, you use it when you. need it.

>> Obviously, one person doesn't need four. private jets. You know what I mean? So, is that what they're doing? They're. they're launching a a a jet rental. business that was all So, they're. already taxfree from buying the jet, right? >> Correct. Then then they rent the jets. out to other corporations or whatever. >> I don't I don't see much. Um well, >> would that be an example? >> Could be. But and I know I've heard a. couple people do that. That's their. excuse for the private jet is, hey, we're actually going to make money with.

it. >> Mhm. >> But I see that as an excuse. Like. there's this thing that we profile on. the show called long-term ministry or. I'm sorry, long distance ministry. And a. pastor will find an excuse and open a. church a thousand miles, 2,000 miles, 3,000 miles away from his main church. And then he goes, "I need a jet because. I have to go preach the gospel." And. it's again, it goes back to that. biblical premise of what is a church. Like you're here to make disciples of. men and run your ministry, which is your.

family. Everything else is just man. building layers on top of Christ's. message. Like Christ didn't say you need. to fly like this guy needs a private jet. to fly over there. Instead, the Bible. says to build and exhort Christians, raise up Christians like you, Sean. And. this is the this is the kicker. The. whole point of a shepherd of a pastor. because pastor translates to shepherd is. to raise up his flock and then send them. out.

So if if the biblical form of church is. I am here to if if you came to my. church, whatever that be a home church, a mega church, my entire biblical goal. is to steward you in the faith and grow. Shawn to where Shawn goes, I'm ready to. leave. I'm going to go start my own. That's the point of the church. But man, what a bad business practice because you. are my money. So no, I'm not going to. send you out. I need you here, Sean. I. need I need you here building this this.

this machine that we've built this. business. It needs you. But God didn't. tell you to build a building. He told. you to build the body. And so those. private jets are all excuses over here. in the business side and they'll they'll. point to the Bible and find a a random. obscure verse to justify it and boom, that jet is justified. They'll try to. raise 20 million bucks or whatever. Um. but all of that again, I'm going to go. back to this this Christ said it in. multiple gospels. He goes, "You've taken. traditions of men." So he said this in.

the temple, "You've taken traditions of. men and you've called it doctrine.". And what he's saying is your culture, as. he's standing there in the temple 2,000. years ago, your culture is not doctrine. It is not the word of God. This is just. culture, but you're calling it doctrine. And we're doing it again. This business. over here is church. No, that's just. culture. This is doctrine. The true body. of believers is doctrine. That is. culture. Um, and planes are thrown into. that. Housing allowances are thrown into.

that. Lump everything. All the loopholes. that we profile are nothing but culture. >> Man, what? Keep going. I want to hear. more examples. Actually, I have a. question. >> Yeah. >> You know, maybe you're familiar with. this, maybe you're not, but I've always. heard that Christmas that the birth of. Christ was actually in October. >> in early October. Have you heard this? >> I've heard that. Yeah. and that the. church made it December 25th and brought. up Santa Claus and all this other stuff.

to bring more people in for the money. Is that is there any truth behind that? >> I don't that's not my wheelhouse. One of. our good mentors um. uh very wise man um he goes Nathan. there's this so what pile. and he goes you have to pick your lane. and then everything else is so what? And. like that to me, like if I I would. assume Christ's birth was not December. 25th, you know, and so it's like that's. a so what like we want to celebrate his. birth just like we want to celebrate his. resurrection. Like I get that. So yeah,

so what like the date to me I don't have. the the the time or the energy to. research that. I have heard that but I. can't speak to it as a. >> Okay. I mean there's some stuff with. Easter too. >> Yeah. Oh yeah. Easter bunnies. You know. about this? >> Yeah. >> Let's do it. Educate me. Well, well, you. got to Well, I don't know much about it, but I've heard. So, what what have you. heard, >> man? I I don't even know how to how to. organize it into uh something that I can. articulate, but it has to do with, you.

know, the the the symbolism of the. Easter Bunny and all of this stuff. >> Oh, I haven't heard I just think the. Easter Bunny is uh again, it's all about. money, >> right? It's like the fact that churches. I I went to a church where they had a. helicopter fly over and rain Easter eggs. down on the kids, you know? I'm like, where in the Bible can you point to that. this is even remot remotely Christian? You know, it my guess is it goes. probably back to some pagan holiday. Um. because most most things have to do with. pagan holidays, you know. Um but yeah, I.

don't know much about like if Easter and. what the bunny symbolizes. >> Okay. >> Yeah. But. >> we'll get into that another time. >> Another time. Let me do some research. Give me a little time and I'll come back. with all that heat. >> All right. So, more examples. >> Yeah. So, what's going on? Um, another. big loophole is um it's called. endurement. So, this is a a legal term. that the IRS puts forward and it's no. part of and this is what gives you 501c3. status. So, I'm going to I'm going to by.

memory repeat the definition of. endurement and then I'm going to throw. examples out and I want to know if this. is endurement or not. No part of the net. earnings of a 501c3 may go to benefit. any of the founders founders family. shareholders or stakeholders. That is inurement. That is illegal. So. no part of the net earnings of a 501c3. may endure to the benefit of any private. shareholder founder the founders's.

family anybody in leadership basically. So you can take a salary but you cannot. use the net earnings to benefit. yourself. Is a private plane in your. >> No. >> Is it what? >> Enurement. >> Endurement meaning. >> so to inure yourself means you're using. the the net earnings of that 501c3 to. benefit yourself not the mission of the. not the mission of the charity. So, is a.

private plane in Yur? >> I think there are examples where it. could be. >> Okay. >> I'm sure that the majority of it is not. >> Okay. Um, is a yacht? >> No. >> Okay. It's not endearment. >> No, it's it's that would that would be. for personal purposes. >> Okay. So, it is endurement. So inuring. is if you inure yourself with with the. um with the the the money I give you. that means you are in using it for.

personal. >> you're using it for personal gain. So so. private yachts would be in your um how. about you and your buddies start a. conference and you all meet up and you. just kind of go on a ski trip for a week. and then you you check the box that hey. we met for three hours to talk about. something for the week. >> Yeah. That would. >> and you're right. And and the reason why. I'm going down this waterfall is how. about hey you Sean, you're a. good-looking dude who's on camera a lot. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. You need a clothing.

allowance. I'm going to pay you or that you're. going to take a $50,000 year clothing. allowance. Is thating yourself? >> Yes. >> Okay. So, these are the slippery slopes. that in Phil Hackne at the IRS, he says. it too. He goes, "It's really hard for. us to be able to define what endurement. is cuz technically I would say you have. a more sane approach to endurement than. most pastors." But hey, I'm a pastor, very successful. I think I need a. private jet. And on paper, I'm going to.

prove why. I'm going to fly to the. church I This is my favorite one. I'm. going to fly to the church I just built. in the Cayman's. It cost me 30 grand. The fuel in my. jet's going to cost me 50 to get there, you know. So I I outspent the whole. build on this church in this third world. country just with fuel alone, but I need. that plane to get there. You know what? A lot of people, Sean, are looking at me. on stage. I need to look good. So that. 50 grand is valid. Hey, you know what? That yacht, that's.

where I witness to other pastors. I take. them fishing. We go deep sea fishing. Man, Sean, you're going to really meet. God out on that water. I promise you. And you're going to land a marlin at the. same time. And that's how they justify. it. >> And so our argument is most of the way. these big pastors in particular are. using money is endurement. They're. building their brand on top of the. generosity of donors and those donors. are giving to expand the mission of that.

church or that nonprofit, but I am. building my brand off the back of it if. that makes sense. So it's like um a good. book sales. This is my favorite one. Um, and most of these pastors use. ghostriters, and I've talked to lots of. the ghostriters. Most of the pastors use. ghostriters, so they don't even write. the book really. They'll read it and. scan through it and make a couple notes, but they slap their name on it. They put. a title on it. And man, Sean, it'd be. awesome if I was on that New York Times. bestsellers list. Well, good news. I.

have a mega church. And so, we're going. to buy 20,000 copies of the book right. when it comes out. So, I use donor. dollars. I use tithe money to buy my. books. and it immediately puts me on the. New York Times bestsellers list. It's. going to sit in the basement of the. church for a while, but don't worry, we'll give it away as free gifts to new. people that come. So, I have officially. inured myself because now the church is. buying my books. I'm on the bestsellers. list. I get to launch my brand and no. one's the wiser. And all these little scams are happening.

in the background. And so, Kenneth. Copeland is a prime example of. Enurement. Kenneth Copeland is the guy. You've seen the video before where um. the the the female news anchor anchor. corners him on the runway and she walks. up to him and and she's asking him about. the private jets and he gets in her face. and he he goes like this. Have you seen. that one? >> Is this the guy that he looks like a. demon? >> Yeah. And he says, "I can't fly. I have. to fly private cuz I can't have demons. in the tube with me." So he's calling. people demons. Um that's Kenneth.

Copeland. And so we we we had a great. showdown on his property. Um it's in the. series. And so. >> what happened? >> So he has a 19,000 foot parsonage. >> What's a parsonage? >> A parsonage is a house owned by the. church. So it's bought and paid for by. donor dollars and tithegivers and the. pastor can live there. The purpose of. this is hey back in the day um clergy. would live on site, right? that door. would be open 24 hours a day for someone.

to come in, get prayer, um, you know, off in the Catholic world, you know, repent. And so that pastor would need to. be on site all the time. And so they. would build what's called a parsonage. right next to the church. So the pastor. could live in this very modest house. that's usually attached physically to. the church. >> Well, over over decades and just through. precedent, that parsonage has been. pulled off. And so the church will pay. for the parsonage of the pastor. So the. parsonage is is owned by the church, but.

the pastor can live in it. There's no. stipulation on how big that parsonage. can be, how how extravagant extravagant. it can be. So Kenneth Copeland has a. 19,000 square foot parsonage on the lake. on his church property. His church. property, so this is the story about. Kenneth. Kenneth, what most people don't. know, was a struggling musician. back in the day. He he became a pilot. and started flying Oral Roberts around. Oral Roberts is like OG evangelist. He's.

like the fir one of the first old school. big boys in the in the space similar to. Frank uh Billy Graham. Um and so the. story goes that Kenneth Copeland was. flying over Texas and saw this runway. next to this lake and God gave him this. vision that he was going to buy this. whole parcel and turn it into a church. and turn it into what he calls the. revival capital of the world. So flash forward, he creates this. marketing pitch, starts his church, and.

back in the day in the 60s and 70s, mailers were super popular. And so, you. know, you'd mail, you'd get a mailing. list. You'd mail 50,000 envelopes out. and say, "Hey, Sean, give me 10 bucks. This is Nathan. This is Pastor Nathan. I. need 10 bucks to help you spread this. message.". We have his mailer from the 70s. And he. promised to build six things. He said, "And in this pitch, God gave me the. vision to buy this runway. I'm going to. build a radio station, a TV network,

ministry facilities, Kingdom Park, which. is a which was an extravagant park for. his churchgoers and his tithe payers. Um, an elderly community. So once you. retire, you'll be able to retire on the. church property. And in your rooms, they. would pipe in Kenneth Copelan's TV. network so you could watch Kenneth. Copeland preach the gospel 24/7 a day. and then um elderly home and then a. hotel for guests to come and enjoy the. lake. So he sent that pitch out, raised tens.

of millions of dollars. He ever only. built three I had to make sure it was. three. Three of the things he promised. to build. One was the radio station. Two. was the TV network. Three was the. ministry facilities. He never built the. three things that people would donate. money for. I would want to use the park. I would want to use the hotel. Maybe one. day I'd want to retire in that facility. He never built anyone, any of them. In. the for-profit world, that would be.

called fraud. He would be in jail. >> Mhm. >> In the religious world, we call it. faith. Nathan, you got to have faith. >> Wow. So, in the interim, he buys 1,600. acres on this lake in Texas. He builds. the ministry facilities. He builds the. radio and TV networks. And then, uh, a. gentleman, a builder, a developer, was. like, "Hey, this bottom part of your. your 1600 acres is prime for. development." So, he peels off 400 of.

the 1600 acres and sells it to a. developer. So, there is a housing. development there today. It's not for. the elderly though and he made money off. that deal. It just went back to his. church. In the meantime, an oil I can't. remember the gentleman's name. He p he. drills oil started going to the church. And he's like, "Hey, you own the mineral. rights of this land. Let's start pumping. oil." So, they've been pumping oil for. decades and no one knows how many tens. of millions of dollars have been made. off the oil because it's all this guy's.

>> all of it. >> All of it. It's all called a church. And so flash forward, now he's an older. guy. >> So the oil business falls under the. church. >> The church owns the oil business. Yeah. So he has his private two private. runways. He's got his ministry. facilities. He peeled off 400 acres to a. for-profit development. He's got his oil. platforms. And at the very bottom of the. lake or the property near the lake, he. started building this 19,000 foot. parsonage. And now he lives in it. No one's ever.

been there before. So no one knows what. it looks like. pastors have, but like no. public nobody like you and I have ever. been there. So that 19,000 foot. parsonage um. word is from a an informant that. basically Copeland has epsteined tons of. pastors. So there was an electrician. back in the day that wired cameras and. audio recording devices into every guest. room in that 19,000 foot parsonage. And. so if you have pastors so afraid of.

their rivals, >> so they're blackmailing. He's. blackmailing. >> Yeah. Got to get dirt on people. >> Who how did you come across this. information? >> Through our PIs. Yeah. >> Every single guest room in a. >> the guest rooms in a parsonage owned by. the church is wiretapped video and audio. to basically archive dirt on people. staying with you. >> Has anybody received the footage? No, cuz no one can ever get to the house,

>> man. Wow. Wow. >> It's not as things aren't as it seems. >> It appears that way. >> So, I had the the thought that, hey, I. want to see the parsonage. So, I start. giving money to his church, and I'm. like, the church owns that house. No. one's seen it, so I want to see it. So, a YouTuber named Tommy G and I uh I. start going to his church um and we're. like, "Okay, we I get a schematic, a big. print out of his property because it's. huge. I track the roads. We, you know,

get a visual on it and um there's one. open gate uh from rain runoff that. couldn't close and it went from a. parking lot to this dirt road and so I. could see it on the map and I'm like, "That's our inn. We're just going to. steer down this open gate and see where. it leads us and we're going to try to. get to the house." So, this is in the. show. Um, we go to service. Um, ironically, everybody, all these pastors. know me. So, as soon as I sit down, there's three security guards around me, like with their earpieces. Um, and I sit. through part of the service. I get up.

and leave and Tommy walks out and we. meet at the cars and we just start. driving. So, we get on this dirt road. We go over this open fence and boom, we're 50 yards from his runway, but. there's a gate closed. And I'm like, shoot, I got nowhere to go, man. We pull. up to the gate, just opens. And I'm like, well, this is gone. So, we're doing this. So, we get onto the. runway. So, now it's something out of uh. what's that? Uh, you know, it's. something out of an action movie. We got. two cars flying down a runway now. And.

I'm like, okay, we're going to make a. hard right here. And this is all in the. show. And there's another gate. And. boom, that gate opens, too. And so, now. we're like 3/4 the way to his house. No. one's been down here before. No one's. ever seen footage of this. And I'm a big. bow hunter. And so as I'm driving. through this property, it's all high. fenced, so it's 10 to 12 foot fences. I. start seeing bucks everywhere, the deer. And I'm like, this is his own. hunting ground. And sure enough, we pull. up to his house and there's one final.

gate and he has this massive deer stand. >> And I'm like, this pastor has his own. high fenced hunting ground on his. property, on the church property that no. one gets to use, but they pay for. So we. pull up to the fence and there's a. keypad. So I'm like, we're not getting. through this one. And now I'm 200 yards. from the house, so we can see it. So we. put drones in the air. We're having fun. No one's ever been here. And so there's. no security. And so I call the front desk of the. church cuz I'm like, well, like we're. kind of stuck here now. So I call the.

front desk and uh I can't remember the. guy's name, Abraham. This nice guy named. Abraham answers and he's like, this is. Abraham. How are you doing, Nathan? And I said, 'Whoa, how do you know this. is Nathan? And he goes, "We have your. number. You've been giving to us.". And so they're just a refined call. center. And I'm like, "Okay, awesome.". He's like, "What would you like to do? Would you like to give money or would. you like prayer?" And I'm like, "Well, I. got a random request. Like, we're. sitting at the gate of Kenneth's house.

Like, I'd love to meet the pastor." And. he's like, "You're what?" And I'm like, "I'm at the gate. Like, we're we're down. here. We made it through two gates. We. were on the one." And I tell him the. whole story. And he goes, "Please hold.". and he just puts me on hold and there's. some hymn music in the background. We. sit there for 30 minutes and I'm like, "No one believes that we actually made. it here, so let's just head back to the. runway." So, we drive back to the runway. and we just wait. I'm like, "If we just. sit on the runway, someone's going to. see us." So, we just sit on this open. runway and sure enough, within 5. minutes, boom, two private security.

guards come or cars come driving by, parked next to us. They're. professionals. Like, after Ed Young's. experience, like, I know private. security and I know professional. security. and then just like straight. cowboys and these guys are. professionals. So they come up and. they're like, you know, what are you. doing? And I'm like, hey, we we just. have a couple questions about um the. parsonage. We tried to, you know, get. there, but we couldn't get there. And uh. we're having a cordial conversation and. out of nowhere, we just hear this F-150. comes screeching up on us and this dude.

jumps out and he looks like John Ritter. from the movies. So he comes like flying. up to all he's almost hits us a couple. feet from us and he gets out and he. tears his glasses off and he opens his. jacket and he walks up to us. He's like. you out of here now and he flashes this. badge and he pulls his shirt open and. he's got his like a pis like nine or. something sitting there in his pants and. luckily Tommy G has been through this. enough and he goes, "Let me see that. badge.". And the guy goes, "No, get out of here. now." And he goes, "No, no, I just I. want to see your badge." And the this.

guy grabs both of us, so assault, and. starts shoving us to the cars. And right. then the the professional security is. like, "Whoa." So they grab John Ritter. and they throw him against this truck. and they're like, "Get out of here." And. uh it turns into this funky altercation. Come to find out he is kind of this. private security like main security guy. Um and again, I'm respectful. And so. cops show up, there's kind of the. standoff and we're like, "Hey, we just. have questions about the financials. No. one's willing to talk. You know, that.

parsonage is paid for by the. congregants. No one's ever been here. No. one's ever seen it. Like, at least. someone should be able to look at it. And the cops are like, "Hey, can you. guys please leave?" And the private. security is like, "Can you guys just. leave?" And we're respectful. We're. like, "Okay, but we'd love to talk to. someone." So, flash forward a couple. days, we find out that cowboy security. is Kenneth's private security. And they. fire him. That guy has traveled around. the US to churches. He gets hired and. fired over and over again. It's just him.

his MO. But so another major loophole is. these part parsonages. You could do. whatever you want. David Taylor, who was. just arrested by the FBI yesterday, 26. 26 or 28,000, you know, square foot home. in in uh Tampa, Florida. You know, that's just one. He has about 28 million. in real estate. >> And so just with the loopholes, you can. do whatever you want. And again, you're. asking for money, whether that be. through tithing or generosity from. vulnerable people who are there, you.

know, to be prayed on and loved on and. and these guys just build empires in the. name of Jesus. >> Man, do you think they're preaching anything. that is I mean, what do what do you. think about their teachings? And. >> cannabis is garbage. Like like I mean, like when I was there, it was after. Trump got shot in the ear. Um, and he. had a photo of Trump up behind him on. the big screen and he literally said God. gave Trump as our savior, you know, and.

then he believes that the cra So, this. is a great story. So, in 2007, um, or might have been 2008, the the, uh, Congress was looking at, um, some. really bad players. So our our boys in. Texas, the Trinity Foundation had made a. big enough stink and so Congress was. starting to look at prosperity gospel. preachers and the worst players. Um led. by Senator Grassly and uh Benny Hinn, if.

you know who Benny Hinn is, megaurch. pastor, he's the guy that whips you with. your with his coat like and you fall. backwards. Uh Benny Hinn spent $5. million fighting this inquiry at the. time. So these these guys are. hemorrhaging money to stop the. government from looking at their. businesses. Um the stock market crashes, the real estate market crashes, you. know, the whole crash of '08 happens. Kenneth Copeland will say that that was. a gift from God, a miracle from God to. get the government off their back. God.

crashed the economy in 2008 so the. government would stop looking at them. So that's the type of crap these guys. preach from the pulpit. And then his. son-in-law. while we were there um was up on stage. and it's in the show and he goes in. difficult times we prosper and we are. getting very prosperous and he goes. the purpose of prosperity is. distribution. and in the show you see this he.

literally says it and just starts. laughing when he says distribution and. he catches himself and he's like dist. distribution because he's you're not. distributing anything. You know, you say. you are and they'll say on their website. they say, "Hey, we give 10% away. We ask. for 10%, we give 10% away." But no one. knows cuz there's no 990 filed. So, it's. whatever that leadership of that. organization wants to say, you have to. take it as faith. Wow. >> And so, Kenneth Copeland committed. fraud. He wanted to build those six. things. He promised investors he would.

build those six things. He only ever. built three. And it was the three he. could benefit from. That is straight up. fraud in the for-profit world. And yet. he's on TV to this day preaching, you. know, whatever gospel he's preaching. >> You know, human beings are. really good at justifying why they're. doing things and they they it's it's. see so many people, they trick their own. mind into justifying why they're doing. what they're doing. Do you think these.

people actually believe that they're. doing good or. >> 100%. >> You do? >> I do. I think the majority of them. I think they have to, right? Dan Bramer. in the show says no one believes. something they think is stupid. >> Well, see, I mean, I don't know. I kind. of disagree with you on this because if. they really truly believe that they were. doing good, then what would be all the. what? I mean, just out there on the. break, you told me not one of these. people. >> have debated you,

>> have. given you any evidence of of good that. they're doing. They they they haven't. even spoken to you, correct? Except the. one guy who. >> who who didn't speak to me, but yeah. >> Yeah. You spoke to you for like five. minutes that said they'll they'll do it. later. >> Yeah. I'll point to the books, the. Bible. I'll point to those scriptures. The blind lead the blind. And um. I always use the analogy, we'll talk. about tithing. I'd love to talk about. tithing in a little bit. Um but someone.

who has tithed their whole life, so. given 10% to their institution, and I. think about the LDS church a lot because. they really do take advantage of the. system. Um is. people don't want to see their lifelong. actions as. silly almost if that makes sense. like I. put my hard-earned money into this. machine and like. >> flip the whole world upside down. We. were talking about that at the. beginning. >> Mhm. And so the mo like everything is.

backwards and so like I do believe most. of the I believe Ed Young in particular. firmly believes he is in the right. I. believe his lawyer Dennis Brewer Jr. firmly believes in he is right. And the. ironic part about the lawyer Dennis. Brewer Jr. who was is the CFO and the. legal c the the general counsel for. Fellowship Church. His dad was also a. lawyer for Kenneth Copeland. >> And so you have pastors passing down. their knowledge to their kids that take. over their business. And then on the.

other side of the spectrum, you have. lawyers who protect these guys and. pastors passing down knowledge on how to. beat the system as well to their kids. who become lawyers. So it's it's I don't. even know the analogy to to but it's. just corruption passing, you know, corrupt corrupt passing down corruption. >> It's generational. >> Yeah. >> I mean, if you think that they I mean, if you think that they actually believe. that they're doing good, then why. wouldn't they talk to you? >> Because this. >> why wouldn't they give you the. information that you need to to clear.

their their congregation, their name, church? >> Because now is the time. I firmly. believe God is working and now is the. time for reform. And this is where it. was 16 years of research and speaking. and listening to the most brilliant. minds in the world. God is, I believe, using me to bring the most brilliant. minds in the world together to present. the argument. It's not me on the. religion business presenting this. argument. I'm presenting it to you now.

because I'm regurgitating what I've. heard in in with these genius minds. But. these minds have never been brought. together. And so to debate tithing would. mean they're going to lose. They've been presenting and. misunderstanding the scriptures on that. for 200 years. About 200 years now, pastors have been preaching tithing. They didn't preach tithing before. So. that's what's so fascinating is their. whole theology, which is just the study. of the scriptures, is off. And so if you.

really look at it, I'm gonna eat tear. you to shreds. You're not going to be. able to handle a discussion with me on. tithing. And then what happens as soon. as your congregation sees you. questioning the or can they can question. your your ask for money? It's a house of. cards. Once you flick that one, the. whole thing collapses. And so that's why. no one will debate me on it. They'll sit. and they'll fly around on their private. jets and make fun of me and make funny. memes of me with devil horns and call me. Timu Judas, which I think is pretty.

funny. That's kind of my online name now. is Teimu Judas. But it's like it's. because they can't debate me biblically. And so they they might have good. intentions, but we always say good. intentions pave the way to hell. And. these guys, I'm going to give them the. bene benefit of the doubt, have great. intentions, and they are rapidly paving. the church to hell. just out there every. Sunday and and I I would call it a false. a false gospel. >> Who says good intentions are the gateway.

to hell? >> We we say it in the show. It's it's a. very popular uh term, but we use it uh. we've used it in the show. It's in our. trailer. We That's been one of our. mantras. Humans will human. Slow is fast. and good intentions pave the way to hell. is our uh are our mantras. >> Can you give any examples of good. intentions as the gateway to hell? Yeah. Um, man, I want to say I'm I'm going to use. a church, man. I want to save souls. I. want to present Christ. Christ is has.

saved me. Um, you know, he is the way, the truth, and the life. No one gets to. the father, Yahweh, except through him. And I want to tell people about that. I. had a radical transformation. So, I'm. going to go to seminary. That's a good. intention to go to seminary. Most. seminaries today teach you how to build. the business. So, that's the first good. intention of mine that's paving my way. That's that's that's laying out this. road. And remember that MS-13 member, you got 10 bad decisions till you murder. someone. And that's me being grumpy on.

the freeway. Someone, you know, cuts me. off. I flash my brights. That's issue. two. I tell him to pull over cuz I want. to yell at him. That's issue three. He's. armed and I'm armed. We both get out of. the car. Right? All these poor decisions. can lead a decent upstanding person to. kill someone. Mhm. >> Um and then boom, he pulls a gun, I pull. a gun, someone dies. Um and so you look. at these good intentions. So I I go to. seminary now. I know how to um start a. church. I the banks my seminary is. actually aligned with a local bank. So.

they're going to give me a loan. I'm. going to take that debt on because I. think I want to preach the gospel. So. there's another good intention to move. But now I have debt I got to pay down. and I don't even have a congregation. yet. And so, can you see the angle to. where hell is me being frustrated with. my work, me cheating on my wife? Like, you you look at the you look at the the. the field of church leadership and it's. just rot with adultery, um you know, um. theft, fraud, abuse, and it's because.

all these good intentions in this system. have led me to hell. And so unless I use. Christ as my beacon and I'm walking. towards him and I'm studying those. scriptures and in prayer, I'm going to. end up in hell. The Bible, I will end up. in hell. Whether be whether it be I. become a pastor or work in film making. >> Well, without good intentions, I mean, what do we have? >> Oh, this is a big one. You have Christ. >> It's not good intentions. >> As a Christian, it's not you. It's not.

me. >> Pastors always say, Nathan, I'm doing my. best. And I say, I hate that term. Christ didn't say, "Do your best.". He said, "You will fail, but every day. you will get up, die to yourself, pick. up your cross, and follow me." To the. point where all I where all when I look. in the mirror, I don't see Nathan. anymore. I see Christ. Because I see the fruits of the spirit. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self-control, faithfulness. Like, that is what I want. to look in the mirror and see.

>> And I will never get up and be like, "Dang, I did my best. My brother and I, who's a brilliant. schol, like brilliant biblical scholar, he he he and I wrestle with that all the. time because he's like, I never want to. hear myself say I did my best. I failed, but God's through grace is going to give. me another attempt at this. And so good. intentions, I don't care about good. intentions, you know? It's like I care. about emulating Christ because my. daughter who's seven, who who's the. who's the show, I'm sitting in this.

chair because of her. And um. I don't ever want her to be like my dad. did his best. I want her to be like my. dad was a broken man who every day tried. to emulate Christ. And so I'm going to do the same thing. And it's it's that's as simple as. Christianity is. It it's nothing else. So everything over. here, the business, the machines, the. good intentions, I don't I don't care.

God didn't say or Christ didn't say, "Nathan, go out with good intentions.". He said, "Sin no more." You know, he. gave very clear directives. And he knew. we would fail. And that's what grace and. forgiveness is for. But I don't go out. saying, "Man, see this is the slippery. slope." Um, I was raised in the. Christian church. I say I w I can. confidently say I did not know Christ. And I wrestled with this idea that he is. the way, the truth, and the life until. my early 30s until until my daughter. came into the world because I had faith.

in my faith. So, you're right. I had so. many good intentions to be like Jesus. I. would go to church. I'd sing. I'd put my. hands up. I'd put money in the bin. I'd. volunteer. I'd go to camps. I was a. train wreck. In my 20s, I did drugs. Like, I just couldn't get my life. together. I had no order in my life. Um, and it it was all good intention. And I. hurt a lot of people along the way. because man, I I love Jesus. I'm a. Christ follower and yada yada yada. But. no, I had good intentions. I wanted to.

be like Jesus, but I had no spine. I had. no moral backbone because all my leaders. around me didn't have a spine and a. backbone because I was looking at them. to say, "This is what I should emulate.". And who are they? They're sexually. abusing their adopted kids. They're. committing adultery. They're divorcing. their wives. And and I'm like, "This is. this is junk." like these all these guys. have good intentions too. So it's when. you finally. experience. Christ and see Christ that you say that. is my that is my focal point and nothing.

else. And then good intentions don't. matter. And it's like I'm going to I'm. going to live I'm going to try my. damnest to live up to to him and I will. fail every day. But when I die to. myself, Christ shines through me. And. Paul says it best. You know, he goes die. to myself. So Christ literally comes. through me. It's not I who live, but. Christ in me. And as a Christian and a. Christ follower, that is the only thing. we look at. Everything else is just. smoke and mirrors in in a trillion.

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treat, cure, or prevent any disease or. condition. These statements and. information are not a substitute for, or. alternative to seeking care from your. health care providers. Before we move into tithing, which. I kind of wanted to save this at the. end, we we will revisit it, but I mean, what what would you like to see happen. out of all this? I mean, >> is it is it transparency that you want.

to see? >> Mhm. >> Is or is it what what is it? I mean, because you're making money off these. off the docu series, correct? >> We're losing a lot. We're losing money. And so I I'll tell you right now, transparency is step one. >> Mhm. >> And that is just shining a light into. the business center, saying transparency. needs to be brought in. That's all I. could care less. And my business partner. and I, we always say we could care less. if your pastor makes 20 million bucks a. year. >> Mhm. >> Or if he makes or if she makes a h.

100red,000 bucks a year. >> The only thing we care about is that you. know, >> because you will make the right. decision. >> Make an educated decision. >> And so our and and. the reformation 1517 Martin Luther. Do. you know much about the Reformation? >> No. >> Okay. So, the Vatican was at its peak. Um, they were fighting wars. They were. building the basilica. Have you been to. the Vatican? >> Mhm. >> Yeah. Incredible. Right. So, they're. they're hemorrhaging money. The the the. Roman Catholic Church is almost broke. They start selling indulgences, which.

has no no real even tie to the. scriptures because they have to raise. more money. They've they've they've got. a strangle hold on the Bible. And so. they're the ones that read the. scriptures and Martin Luther and a few. others are like, "This is ridiculous. This book needs to be out for everybody. to be able to read." Um, you know, they. translated into German and a few other. languages. And boom, the Reformation. happens because now that Bible, that. massive Bible, you can read at your. house. You don't need the vat the.

Vatican anymore to do that. And so you. have the Protestant Reformation. But. what had happened is all power had. siloed at the top of the Vatican. So it. was a monarchy. There was a few select. people at the very top controlling the. literature, controlling what people do, asking for money, and you had to give. the money up the value chain to this top. leadership. Um, Martin Luther writes in. one of his books, he goes, "I see them. in Rome now sitting around drinking. their fine Italian wines, laughing at. all the stupid beering Germans that have.

paid for it all." And so you have this. select few that are controlling all the. resources and demanding for salvation. that you give to this institution. So. what happens is the reformation happens. and that whole system gets flipped on. its head. Now the Bible is in your. hands. You can read the Bible. You don't. have to give to an institution because. we burned most of them down or broken. all the stained glass. No one wants to. go anymore. And now this is the birth of. marketing in the church too. So what. does the Vatican do? Well, we have good.

art. So they bring in all these amazing. artists and painters and they build the. basilica. So boom, marketing the church. has officially begun. And so the. Protestant Reformation happens. Everybody's faith is their own again. because it's it's you doing the work. It's me having to read. It's me having. to be in this body, the small eklesia, and talk about it. And church went. organic again. So that organism starts. moving through. It moves to the US. Now. the organism is moving across the US. because America's, you know, being.

founded and discovered. All the pilgrims. are pushing over. They've got that. Bible, literally that Bible came across. with pilgrims and they're reading around. campfires to each other. And boom, what. happens? America gets established, cities get built, churches start. building buildings again. So it's no. longer just around campfires and people. moving. Now we got buildings. We got. overhead. Um, flash forward to today, we've just. built many Vaticanans all over again. There's not one Vatican, though. There's. 400,000 now.

>> Does that make sense? >> 400,000. >> So, there's 400,000 churches in the US. And so, where I'm going with this is the. Protestant Reformation tore down a. monarchy. But look at every church in. the US today. It's all monarchies. All. the powers at the top. There's a select. few that control the money. And they. say, "Everybody give out of faith and. we'll do because we are anointed what. God says we should do with your money.". So this is just the Protestant. Reformation 2.0. And it's now because. enough people are frustrated and sick of.

it that the religion business is is the. first I think of many um stories to come. out where it's going to it's going to. reform the church and reformations are. not fun. Um, and so now it's so to your. point in the beginning with which your. gentleman's question on Patreon was, are. you here just are you here just to point. out a problem or bring a solution? We. are here to point out the problem but. then bring a solution so hopefully the. reformation can be sped up a little bit. if that makes sense.

>> Yeah. Let's get into tithing. We'll get. into the how we fix this at the end. >> Tithing. So churches need money. The businesses. need money to run to your point. their. salaries, insuranceances, operational. cost, overhead, you name it. So, there's. two ways to get that money. One is. through tithing, which is an Old. Testament biblical term. And then two is. through just generous giving. Give what? Give out of love. You know, it's more. Christc centered. So, um, tithing in the.

early founding of America, churches. didn't tithe. Nowhere in the history or. literature does any pastor ever require. tithes. when we when we read through um. you know sermons and whatnot, it wasn't. until the Civil War when America was. really broke that we start seeing. tithing come back up and it's because. churches were poor and so churches. pastors went back through the Bible and. they went to the Old Testament and the. story of Moses coming off Mount Si, he. brings what's called the Mosaic laws off.

the mountain which is the ten. commandments and the sent the set of. laws to rule Israel. And this is a really big point. At this. moment in history, politics and religion. were combined. They were not separate. In America, they're separate. Back then, they were not separate. Within those. Mosaic laws, there's three tithes. And a tithe. literally transfer or translates to a. tenth. So when you hear someone say a. tithe, it means one/10enth. That is, it.

just means a tenth. So those there was. three tithes. There was the festival. tithe, the Levitical tithe, and then the. charity tithe. The charity tithe was. taken every third year. So technically, you're supposed to be giving 23.3%. of what you have to the temple, not 10%. If you point to the the Mosaic. Covenants, if you're a pastor that says, "I preach tithing," which is the Kenneth. Copeland's of the world, the Russell uh.

Johnson's of the world, most prosperity. pastors point to tithing. So from the very baseline, their. argument is flawed because they just. picked one of the three. And the one. they picked is the Levitical tithe. because they've positioned themselves as. the Levites who took care of the temple. And so here's the kicker. You have the. Jewish temple where you brought your. tithes. You'd slit your animals throats. The Levites never took a salary. They. owned nothing. And are you a hunter?

Okay, we're going to get into some nerdy. stuff about hunting and slaughtering. animals real quick. So the Levites sole. purpose was to upkeep the temple and. bring your tithes and offerings to God. and and and offer them to God. You could. not do it. And so, um, a couple rules. Levites could not own any land and they. took no money. So, these current pastors. are positioning themselves as the. Levitical priest. So, right there,

they're flawed. If you want to mirror. the Old Testament, you can't take a. salary. You can't own land. And then, yeah, you could, I guess, ask for a. tithe, but you ask for you have to ask. for all three. So the tithe, this tithe. in particular is I would offer my my. goat, my lamb, my sheep, my cow, whatever I'm bringing to the altar. The. Levites would slit its throat, process. it, and then God asked for one thing, the fat of the animal, as the story. goes. So God says, "Burn the fat to me. as I like it. It's a sweet smelling.

aroma." And then they'd put the rest of. the animal in a pot and basically boil. it down. the Levite. This is where the. Levite would benefit from the tithe. They would take one back quarter of the. animal. I can't remember if it's the. left or right because they have to feed. their family. So, they would take a a. quarter of your tithe and then guess who. got the best the rest of the tithe back? You did. And you fed your family with. it. But the whole point was to bring this. animal, bleed it out, burn the fat to. God. You as the Levite would get one of.

the quarters and I would take the rest. back and eat it. So, that is the point. of the tithe. It's saying, "I'm bringing. bringing this as an offering to you.". But here's the kicker. You only ever had. to tithe if you were Jewish and you. owned land in Israel. If you were a sojourer or a gentile, you. did not tithe. >> Interesting. >> So, the tithe rules of the Old. Testament, the Mosaic law, Jewish. landowner, and then what came off the.

land. So the story goes since Israel. since the the biblical story is Israel. was a gift the land was a gift to the. Jews by God required something off of. that and that was agriculture and. livestock off the land itself. So when. you read the old or when Jesus talks. about tithing of mint and dill it's. what's coming off your property. It has. nothing to do with money. So that pastor. is positioning himself as the Levite. which the Levites are gone. So you're.

not you're not a Levitical priest. And. then he's positioning his church, his. modern day institution as the temple. Guess what Christ said? God and Jesus he. said we don't dwell in temples. No building holds God. You are the. temple now Sean. So our very Christ that all these. churches preach say we are the temple. The building is not the temple. But to. fund it we say the building is the. temple and I am the Levitical priest.

So it's all botched. And so this is why. >> this is why it's so important to get all. these different perspectives. >> because what I've noticed through my. journey is that that that it people will. cherrypick, you know, parts of scripture. to fulfill their own, you know, desires. and dreams and stuff like that. >> Well, and don't get me wrong, like this. is what I encourage everybody to do. The. first time the Bible really came at me. and it came alive was when I read it as. a history book. I was not here. I'm.

like, God, just let me read it as a. story. And as soon as I did that, it. came alive cuz then these wars meant. something. These prophets being martyed. meant something, you know, like then it. wasn't I wasn't trying to cherrypick. anything out of it. >> Mhm. >> So, you move to the New Testament, Christ gives very specific details on. how to give. And like I said, if you're. a Christ follower, everything follows. with you. your resources, your time, your talent, everything you have. And so. Christ told you to be very generous. And.

he said in Matthew 25:31, "Help the. hungry, help the thirsty, help the. naked, help the prisoner, help the. soldier." And then he was obsessed with. helping the orphans and the widows. So if that is Christ's main focus, help. the needy, help the helpless. I look at. the institutional church today when I. said only six cents of every dollar even. leaves the walls. We're not doing that. job at all. Not even remotely close to. it. Sure, there's going to be fraud and. abuse. You can never get that out of a.

system, but we should our system should. at least somewhat mirror our quote. unquote savior. And it and it's. antithetical to it. All with good intentions. By the way, that's the kicker is all of this was. built with good intentions. Man, what are we missing before we move into. how do we what do you like to see and. how do we what is the good news? You.

said you had good news at the beginning. >> I have great news. Christians Christians. and American Christians in particular. are the most generous people in the. world. We give and and this is my every. Christ follower out there. you are are. trying to emulate your savior and you. can see that in your giving like hats. off to you. But that doesn't mean we. just give and let it go. And and um some. of the worst offenders right now that.

are being exposed and many are in prison. always say, "Hey Sean, your money is not. yours. It's God's. So give me 10% and we're going to do. what we feel we need to do with it and. leave it up to God." I would argue. Christ is would would disagree with that. entirely because Christ says, "Sean, pick up your cross and follow me." And. what he is saying there, I think there's. an expectation baked in that you will be. the light of the world. You will spread.

my gospel. And what that means is I will. make sure the limited resources I have. create impact for his cause. So, I will actually demand. accountability with my money that I give. and demand stewardship of that money. because it's a limited resource. I'm. just not going to give it away and let. you do whatever you want with it. Like, no. Christ told me to make disciples of. men, to to heal the sick. I am here to. do that, to feed the hungry, to clothe. the naked, you know, to to visit the.

prisoner and the sojourer and help the. sojourer. Like, that is what we're here. to do. So, hey, if I give five bucks, I. want to make sure that five bucks goes. towards the cause. And sure, you're. leading the organization. You deserve a. salary. You deserve your kids to be paid. without a doubt. But that doesn't mean. you yourself off of it, right? Steward. the money well. And the way we do that. is by bringing accountability into that. system, into those churches, into those. auxiliaries, into those conventions, into those associations. Or we're just. going to have trillion dollar hedge.

funds everywhere with every church. eventually. And then then then the. church becomes the state again which has. happened in the past as well. >> Mhm. >> Paul White, I want to get to Paul White before we. Paula White is the faith adviser to our. current sitting president Trump. Um. we were given. uh by an individual her bylaws. So. remember in the beginning I was talking.

about we have to separate the business. from the true church. Paulo White is a. corporation. It is a business and. businesses have bylaws. Her bylaws are. stamped confidential on every single. page. Um in her bylaws. it says she can never be fired. In her bylaws it says she can never be. removed until death. When she dies or resigns, the business. gets passed off to her son. There is no. vote on who takes it over. They have a.

board of directors. The board of. directors can make decisions. She can. fire any board of director at any time. If she doesn't like the vote of the. board of directors, she can veto it. She has full cart blanch reign of that. organization. So, she can say she's a. corporation with bylaws and a board of. directors, but it's just it's all smoke. and mirrors. She is literally a. monarchy. And then the kicker is in. those bylaws, it says you will find.

Jesus through your pastor, president. Paula White. So, it says, Sean, if you go to Paula. White's church, you can't get to Jesus. You have to come through me. So, again, she's positioned herself as. the middleman. >> Mhm. And then she's out there shleing. thousand dollars, you know, on TV and. saying you're going to get a blessing. Like it's it's this issue goes all the. way to the White House. And then this is. the woman who's giving our sitting. president.

advice on Christ. Her entire system is. antithetical to the very Christ that she. says she worships. You have to practice what you preach. And that's the problem is people today. in the lay Christian are looking at the. pulpit and even Paula White might have. some decent message. But then you look. at the organization and it's. antithetical. It's running in. contradiction to the very message from.

the pulpit. It's hey don't ask for. accountability. Don't ask for um. transparency. Hey you know he he. sexually abused some kids. It's it's a. moral failure. Robert Morris in Dallas. Oh he raped a 12-year-old. It's a moral. failure. It's not criminal. He he he he. was doing his best. He had good. intentions. Like that's what we chalk it. up to. And so as a as lay Christians are. looking at this right now and looking at. the institutional church going, everything's running antithetical to. Jesus. What's coming from the pulpit is. nice with good intentions, but there's.

this collision right now. And it's a. trillion dollar collision running. straight into Jesus. And that's where. we're at. And so the religion business. is right at that epicenter, >> man. Yeah. It'd be great if we could get some. transparency. >> That's that's all we're asking for with. the religion business. We don't. >> I think that's all you need, you know, to correct. Maybe not even maybe correct is the. wrong word, but people need the.

transparency to make make the decisions. on who they're going to follow, where. they're going to go. >> Yeah. And people are smart. This is the. thing. So remember, there's 400,000 mini. Vaticans that are that are all just. monarchies. All the powers at the top, you just need to flip it. Power, it's. democracy. Power needs to go back to the. people. People need to say, "Hey, I need. to know where my money's going." And. then they once they are educated will. make the right decisions. And so we have. a list of questions on our website that. you once you watch the show, you can. download and set up a meeting with your. pastors. They're very juvenile.

questions, but most people just don't. know how to articulate it because no one. knows in has ever looked inside the. machine. So, it's a dozen questions or. so, and hey, just take it in and be. like, "Hey, pastor, I'd like to know. this in this.". >> You know, the questions. >> Um, it's really simple. We've talked. about it's like what what's the top, you. know, what's the top two to five. people's salary? Like, congregants. should know that. Does our pastor take a. housing allowance? And if so, how much? Do you take a car allowance? Do you take. a housing allowance? Who's the board of. directors? because churches don't have.

an obligation to say who who their board. of directors are. And so most of the. time it's just family and friends and. big in and big donors. And so you're. literally just. it's so sad, but a lot of these. organizations are leveraging the very. vulnerable populations that we were told. to protect and nurture. And and so. again, it's just simple questions like. that. It's what this is my kicker. It's. what every secular nonprofit has to.

declare on their 990. Every publicly. traded company has all this information. out in public. If you're an investor, you know every salary. You know, you. know where the you see P&Ls. We're not. asking for anything else than any other. business. So that's why you have to. separate the the eklesia from the the. building and the business and say it's a. business. Run it like a business. And. this is our saying is transparency. demands accountability. Accountability demands reform. and. reform man's impact. And so we're just.

bringing the transparency piece in. And. then we we know and we have faith that. Christians will bring the accountability. because of it. And the rest is up to God. and it'll happen. So transparency, you. nailed it. This all just turn that light. on. And the rats and cockroaches are. going to scurry. And then John 3 talks. about this. Christ came into the world. to be the light, but men love the. darkness rather than the light for fear. that his deeds will be exposed. And so you just turn that light on and. people and then it says and those who.

come to the life are looking for the. light, are looking for Christ. And. there's great pastors out there who have. hit us up on social media who have. called us. We've said on hundreds of. calls where they are coming to the. light. They're like, "We get it, dude. This is a broken system. Let's be a part. of a solution." And then you also have. the rats and the cockroaches scurrying. And so. reform begins today. Have you seen have. you seen any. churches. start to implement transparency since.

you've been doing this? >> You know, the show is only we soft. launched a few weeks ago. Um, so it's. it's shock. It's already having a shock. in the system. Um, and a lot of them are. saying, "Okay, what do we do?" That's. um, >> what do we do? >> Yeah. They're like I'm like, "Well, you. just be transparent.". >> Yeah. And so, um, >> open the books up. >> Yeah. Open the books. >> That's what you do. >> All you do is you open the books up and. your your congregants will will know. And so, we are seeing. >> See, they do. Sorry to cut you off.

You're good. Yeah. >> They do know. They do know what's right. and wrong. This is I mean, this is. >> What do we do about this Epstein stuff? Release the [ __ ] files. Yes. >> Release them. >> Yes. >> Just like you said you were going to. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> be transparent. >> Yeah. >> That's what everybody wants. We just. want to know where the money's going. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. >> And then everybody can make their own. decision on if they want to stay here or. not. We're not. >> 100%. >> It's not rocket science, right?

>> But they won't do it because. >> they know what's wrong. >> They will though if the money moves. And. so that's our goal. Um a a brilliant man. who helped the LDS church grow to 300. billion. Um one of their main investors. He blew the whistle in 2019 on it and. that's how that that whole system even. got exposed because churches don't have. to be transparent but he blew the. whistle was 60 Minutes. Um he goes. Nathan I don't know if you realize what. you guys are doing but he goes the.

smartest minds in the world see. everything as rivers. So rivers of. capital, rivers of humans, rivers of. resource, rivers of you know rare earth. minerals. And he goes, "You're tackling. a trillion dollar river." And he's like, "You're at the river right now." And he. goes, "Smart people don't damn the river. off, which means we're not just going to. point out a problem." He goes, "Smart. people divert rivers.".

And he goes, "So where do you want to. divert the river?". And all I said was to accountable. organizations because there's good. people, good pastors, good nonprofits, great nonprofits out there doing amazing. work. I want to divert that trillion to. them. And he goes, "Cool, go do it." So. that's all we're doing. And that's what. Broken Shepherds is is an app that just. diverts money. It shows the accountable. organizations and the shady ones side by. side. And you see it and then you get to. figure out where based on educating the. the donor, you decide where you give.

your money. That's it. It's not rocket science. >> What kind of blowback are you getting? Um, we've had a lot of hate, you know, >> I can imagine. >> Yeah. >> You just flipped. >> How many people go to church? >> Uh, something million go to church in the. US? >> 100 something million people. You just. flipped their entire world upside down. >> Yeah. The majority of I think there's. 2.3 billion Christian. >> Entire life. >> Yeah. >> Just got flipped upside down because of.

that. >> Mhm. And but we're not like That's the thing. The Bible hasn't changed. Mhm. >> You know, the Bible always has this. concept of a refiner's fire. You know, refining is not easy. It's painful, but. it burns off impurities. And so, we. always say, "Hey, burn it down.". And what's left standing is of God. And. what isn't left standing ain't of God, that's of man. And then out of the death. of what dies, beautiful things will.

resurrect. Like that's why Christ is. such a fascisating. when you start mapping it out over life. A great example is Gateway. Gateway is a. church outside Dallas. Massive mega. church. Um and the lead pastors Rob was. Robert Morris. Um come to find out he. was he raped a 12-year-old. Um and so. they let him go and instead of saying. hey this whole system is rotted like.

this is the this man built this. organization everything about it is tied. to him. What should happen is you should. let this business die and let all those. brilliant Christians sitting in those. pews with good intentions with um with a. love for Christ with families go out. into their community and beautiful. things will resurrect. But instead, what. is the board of directors doing? We're a. $50 million a year organization. We got. to hold on to this. There's still good. here. And it's like, no, dude, that's. like, let it die. And beautiful things.

will resurrect out of that. New. churches, new new new home churches, new. mega churches, new whatever. But. beautiful things will resurrect. And I. am so confident that in a decade, the. religious landscape in America will look. radically different. And it will be ran. with accountability and transparency. And the church will be the light of the. world because guess what? We have a. trillion dollars a year to literally. solve the top 30 global social issues. The top 20, here's how crazy. Let's get. into some fun stuff. The top 20 global.

social issues can be solved for around. 35 billion a year. That's ending deaths. from malaria, tuberculosis, just really. lowanging fruits that that aren't sexy. And this is why governments don't solve. them. And so just if we brought. accountability into the system and. stopped some of the theft that goes on. internally, the Christian church could. solve the top 20 global social issues. and it would affect no one's bottom. line. And so what I mean by that is 92.

billion with a B every year is stolen by. church staff from their coffers. 92. billion. >> 92 billion. >> Almost almost 10%. just bring accountability in and like. let's say we drop that number to 50. billion. The Christian church could. solve the top 20 global social issues. just with that savings. So you could. still have your megaurches and planes. and all that. We're not even changing. the system. Now think if we actually. reformed the system and 20 cents of. every dollar started going to impact.

The Christian church could radically. transform the world, be the light of the. world tomorrow, still have your. buildings, still have your private. planes. You just need to bring. accountability and transparency into it. So when I hear a pastor say, "It's. because we don't have enough money." I'm. like, "You are full of crap. You have no. accountability and transparency." That's. the problem. And so bring that into the. system and the church could be the light. of the world tomorrow, man. And that's. what's so exciting is Christians are the. most generous people in the world. because we try to emulate our savior.

But then leadership and wolves, the. Bible talks a lot about wolves, you. know, devouring widows houses. And so that's what we're doing. The. institution is literally doing. everything the prophets of the Old. Testament preached against and and spoke. of in everything Christ spoke of that he. want he was against. Turning my father's. house into money and devouring widows. houses. >> So back to back to the original. question. I mean, is the I mean, I we've.

talked about some of the blowback, you. know, offline on breaks before we. started the interview. I mean, where is. the majority of the blowback coming. from? Is it from people's worlds that. were flipped upside down and they. realize, "Oh [ __ ]. >> I've been wrong this entire time.". >> Yeah. Sorry, I had a head injury, so. it's hard for me to remember what I've. said here and outside, but there's like. two splits of the world. Um, you know, you have your congregant and if they. watch it, they are so supportive. Um, I. was at a I'll call it a religious. institution a couple Sundays ago and.

this woman came up and she's like, "Are. you the religion business?" And I'm. like, "Yeah." And she just hugged me and. then she just walked off. And that's the. response we're getting from the day from. the average Christian who wants to read. that Bible and deepen their faith. The. only blowback we're getting is from. people who make their living off the. institution. >> What is the blowback? Um. uh we've had security teams call us and. say that there's you know bad things are. going to happen to us and um one instit.

one person in particular paid 100 grand. to um dig up dirt and then the security. detail said put a hit out. >> Put a hit out. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Well that's not very Christianlike. >> No. No. And uh. >> how are you handling it? uh security and and I firmly believe um. you worry about your family. >> No,

I firmly believe God's got got me and um. we take precautions, you know, we're not. out there just doing whatever we want, but um I think I'm on the right side. with my creator on this one. And uh. the world needs. and one thing we present in episode 7 is. men have we have abdigated our role as. Christian leaders. Um we don't teach our. children the Bible anymore. We let other. people do it. Um and.

men, male pastors in particular, have. chased fame in the stage, in the. celebrity, in the spotlight. And it's. women that have stepped up. And I've. seen this around the world and you see. this in the show. quiet, humble women. have stepped up to be the hands and feet. of God in Jesus. And it's time for men. to step back up. And I look at the. founding of America and those founding. fathers, you know, we talk about. politics and religion kind of mirroring. courses. Those founding fathers died for. the cause. They put their life on the.

line. You know, they they those those. individuals in DC are literally supposed. to be public servants. >> That is what church leadership needs to. become. Again, we need to be servants. cuz Christ said, "You are a servant." He. goes, "I came to serve you. I washed. your feet. Do this to others." And. instead, we like to stand on stages and. collect money and build buildings and. create institutions, which which again. aren't inherently bad, but it's to. ourselves. We're building that to.

ourselves. >> Yeah. And so I firmly believe that with. this reformation, this next generation. of young leaders is going to come in. with a servant's heart and the church. will radically reform and generosity. will not drop because everybody's like, "Are you afraid that people are going to. stop giving?" And I'm like, "No, man. If. if I was like help if like I love I'm I. single mothers here's a great example. Christian churches love to promote. pro-life. We're marching to DC. We're.

going to stand on those step steps. We're going to sing songs because we are. pro-life. And I've sat down with pastors. and I've asked this. Okay, what do you. guys do for your single mothers in your. town? What do you mean, Nathan? Well, you're so pro-life. What do you. do? Well, we go to DC. Well, I don't. care about this. What do you do for the. local single mothers in your in your. town? And one in particular, they had. spent $2 million on a new child's care a. child care facility at their church. And.

uh they were so proud to show it to me. And I'm like, "This is awesome. It's. like it's like Disneyland basically.". And I said, "Okay, well, you use this. every Sunday, right?" And they're like, "Yeah." I'm like, "Why don't you open it. for single mothers in your neighborhood. that are struggling? You know, they. can't pay for a nanny or a babysitter, but they need to get to work. Why don't. you say, "Hey, one of our programs is. going to be single mothers if you're so. pro-life." And their response was. literally, "Well, it would ruin the. facility.

And I'm like, that is the point of the. facility, but you want it squeaky, like. squeaky clean. And there's an organization that's very. close to Trump, a nonprofit called. Samaritan's Purse, which we expose in. the show or we explore in the show. Um, Billy Graham's son, Franklin Graham, runs it now. And uh, and man, they do. good work with refugees in Europe. Um, but again, you put a dollar in the top. of the Samaritan's Purse machine and a. penny falls out the bottom. And I love. it whenever I see I don't love it. It.

breaks my heart whenever I see all their. natural disaster programs. Every truck. that pulls out of their um spot is so. perfect. Doesn't have a single scratch. When you see them drop in medical aid. that's never been used before. And I'm like, what? like you're. stockpiling resources and in the last 3. years they've doubled their net assets. and I'm like yeah you do some good work. but you're just building a kingdom just. like the LDS churches and saying man.

look at the good work we're doing as you. have two billion sitting. It's like God. never told us to store up on earth. He. actually said get rid of it you know let. me be have faith in me. the daily bread. has been lost from the institution. And. I was going to bring up a hunting. analogy. Um God wants the fat, right, of. the animal on the altars in the Old. Testament. And he said it's a sweet. smelling aroma. And and as a hunter, when you break down an animal and you.

look at the fat stores, this animal took. a full six months to put this on and. it's going to burn up over winter. and. that animal hopes to survive that winter. to put it on again. Right? So, is there. a correlation between God demanding the. fat of the animal and God saying, "Hey, Sean, I need you to put your faith in. me. I've got you for tomorrow. Give me. your fat. Give it away. And I've got. you. And if you're doing the right.

thing, I've always got you.". And then you look at the religious. institutions and they are fat as hell. LDS is 300 billion, going to hit a. trillion. Samaritan's Purse just hit two. billion. Um, uh, uh, Kenneth Copelan, 750 million. Dayar, 750 million cash they've made off. of buying out struggling individuals. with life insurance policies. All in the. name of Jesus. >> Man,

how do you think we'll get to. transparency? By people demanding or. laws? >> People demanding. That's where the show. has to be seen because it at least. educates and our goal is to educate and. I firmly believe Christians once they. know the problem and they can articulate. it, they will take it into their own. hands. Do you think you'll do another docue. series once churches start. opening up their books, becoming. transparent? Do you think you'll do a. series on here's some here's some good.

ones? >> Uh the show so shows good ones. >> It does. So that's what cool we show. episode 3 is called um uh saints and. sinners. We show the good ones and the. bad ones. Yeah. We show an awesome. homeless program in Rockford, Illinois. called the Rockford Res excuse me, the. Rockford Rescue Mission. Um we show. awesome operations overseas. Like we. show the good ones and that that was the. goal. I bring no judgment. I don't I I. do say Kenneth committed fraud because.

that is fraud. But I don't say this guy. did it maliciously. I say I give him. good like with good he probably had good. intentions. But my goal in the show is. to put up Kenneth Copeland alongside his. sister Rosemary who dedicated her life. to um um ch child fighters in Uganda, you know, who were who were taken off. the streets and from homes by Joseph. Con. Like I got to sit with her and. ironically, you know, and then that's. the goal is just to put them side by. side and you make the decision who's. more Christlike, you know, and that's.

what I wanted to show. So, at the end of. the show, at the end of the series, you. almost feel sick to your stomach because. you're like, I I should be like Sister. Rosemary and Pastor Wilfred and and all. these amazing individuals that if I'm a. Christ follower, these individuals pick. up their cross, you know, and again, it's dangerous and you risk it and you. can't have fat. But the church, the. institution, those buildings are fat. now. We've become fat. And so, we need. to offer that fat up and say, "Okay, God, you asked for faith. That's and. Christ asked for faith, too. Just pick.

it up and pick up your cross and follow. me, Sean. >> Get it where it needs to go. >> Yeah, >> man. What are we missing? Christ. The church is missing Christ as. the uh as the head of the church. There's only And this is a big one. Someone I can't believe I'd never. realized this um until a call last week. This guy named Chris. He's like, "Nathan, you know there's only one.

church, right?". And I've been working on this for 16. years. And I'm like, "Wait, what?" He's. like, "There's only one church. Christ. Church. It's the body of Christ. It's. the people. There's no other church. So. when you say I'm going to go to. Ridgeline Church, that's not a church. That's a brand." When I say, "I'm going. to go to Fellowship," that's a brand. It's not a church. There's only one. church. And we've built all these brands. and businesses on top of that church. And that's why we have 44,000. denominations today. 44,000.

denominations of Christianity because we. all have to be different. My church has. to be different than you, Sean, because. if we're the same, Yeah. What does that mean? You got. nothing to argue about, bro. We're going. to we're going to emulate our savior. So, there's one church. That's what I. would encourage everybody to do. There's. one church. It's the it's the body of. Christ. You are an active breathing part. of that organism. Read the Bible cover. to cover. Live in it. Breathe it and. pray. Like meditate by yourself.

>> I think that's a great message. I mean, that is of all the stuff I've learned. through the Bible study at my house, that is probably the one thing that. stuck out the most was when Todd said, you know, the the church isn't a. brickandmortar building. It is the. living body of believers and that's all. that matters. >> Mhm. >> But and who. who is if you can educate your children.

on that and I can educate mine in one. generation the world will look radically. different. And so my only ministry is my. child. because if I can teach her what I what. took me 41 years to learn, this place is in good hands, man. You know, >> well, Nathan, I love what you're doing. It's dangerous. >> Kicking a lot of rocks over here, but um. I wish you the best of luck. I thank you.

for coming and um I'd love to see what's. coming next. >> Yeah. Thank you, brother. >> Cheers. [Music]. No matter where you're watching Shawn. Ryan Show from, if you get anything out. of this, please like, comment, subscribe, and most importantly, share. this everywhere you possibly can. And if.

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