Mike Rowe - 7.5 Million Open Jobs and the Collapse of Work in America | SRS #319

[music]. Mike Row guilty. Welcome. Thank you for. having me. >> Thank you for coming. Like I was saying. earlier, this this is pretty surreal for. me. I don't know how many episodes of. Dirty Jobs I've watched, but it's been a. lot of them. And uh and outside of. outside of TV, >> when you chime in on certain topics, you. always just bring a a.

very well articulated. sensibility. uh to the topic that I think that that. everybody seems to rally around and it's. it's it's good to see. Well, as Steve. Martin said, you know, when it comes to. communication, some people have a way. with words and other people not have. way. [laughter]. >> Nice. >> Well, look, we're in the communication. business. You can call it whatever else. you want. the entertainment business,

the whatever it is, TV show, podcast, influencers, you know, journalism, whatever it is, we're in the business of. trying to articulate an idea in a way. that is credible enough to be taken. seriously, but not so credible that it's. douchy. And it's impossible to. articulate and and really know when you. get it right. It's kind of like a like a.

like a fat girl on a balance beam, you. know? It's just like you're you're all. over the place. always trying to find. your equilibrium, you know, not wanting to to go too far, say too much, not overreach, not sit the. fight out, stay in the middle, all all. that stuff is is is [laughter]. challenging to navigate. Yeah. >> But fun. I mean, look, the whole thing. is a kick, and if you're not in on the. joke, well, you lose. >> Nice. What do you How do you like.

podcasting? >> Um, I guess I love it. Um, you know, I. was late to the party. We were talking. earlier about the um, you know, so much of what you do, I. think, is dictated by when you started. And I started in entertainment a long. time ago. and [laughter]. and I got very lucky to have some. success at a time when podcast wasn't.

even a word and traditional media was. still traditional. And so, you know, I I. got some breaks early on and eventually. got a show on the air that I I was proud. of and then had a network behind me that. supported it and then had a bunch of. spin-offs that magnified it. And so I I. just came around at a time when I. [clears throat] could have a um.

God, I hate to say brand because that is. douchy, but I could have a point of view. and I could be consistent with that. point of view in a way that the broad. media was okay with. I couldn't do that. today. I couldn't get dirty jobs. I. couldn't sell that show today. >> You don't think so? >> Never in a million years. Couldn't sell. it. Couldn't film it, couldn't do. anything like the way we did back in the. day. We That show literally Forest.

Gumped its way onto the air. [laughter]. It was It was deemed off-brand. I shot the pilot myself. >> Did you really? >> Three of them. Yeah. Yeah. I I I was. working uh for CBS at the time hosting a. local show called Evening Magazine. It. was just a little segment that I was. doing and uh it was very inappropriate. for that for that show, but the viewers.

really I was going to say the viewers. loved it, but that's not entirely true. either. They every time I put up a. segment, I was calling them u somebody's. got to do it. And it was it was just. like Dirty Jobs, but it was a it was an. honest look at work uh through the eyes. of the worker. Unscripted, no second. takes, nothing like that. And um the. feedback from those segments way back in. 2001.

was, "You think that's dirty? Where do you. see what my dad does, my brother, my. cousin, my uncle, my sister? way, do you. see what they do like for a living? And. um I'd never seen feedback like that. before around anything I had done. And. I'd been freelancing in entertainment. for 20 years before that. I was 42 at. the time. And so I was like, "Wow, these. are viewers who who want to program.

this segment." And I thought that would. be cool if it translated into a a larger. platform. And so that's that's kind of. how it how it started with like this. idea that I work for the viewer. So to. answer your question, do I like. podcasting? Um I love it, but I didn't start there. Mhm. >> And so, and so for me, like getting into. your world was really an attempt, ironically,

to get rid of um a lot of the production. cuz production. can be the enemy of authenticity. >> Mhm. >> And I find this so interesting because I. I've been on a lot of sets, Sean. I've. been interviewed a bunch of times and. this is crazy what you've built. [laughter] here. >> No, no, dude. You you surely you must. understand, but your your viewers should. understand too that in a relative world,

you've created an incredibly authentic. space with a ton of production in it. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10. Got like 13 cameras in. here. I filmed Dirty Jobs with a GoPro. in this hand and a couple of lunatics. behind me trying to figure out what the. shot was. Like, we never did a second. take on Dirty Jobs ever, right? I had a.

behind-the-scenes camera that never. stopped rolling cuz I I wanted the. viewer to see the business of making the. show. And this is the first set I've. ever been on where there's so. much production. that actually doesn't get in the way of. what you're doing. >> Yeah. So, there's a compliment baked. into all that because it's a really.

really. >> it's a hard thing to do to build a home. where a guest can feel this comfortable. but still be surrounded by this much. [ __ ] [laughter]. >> I mean it as a compliment. >> I really appreciate that. I really do. Um, yeah. You know, I just when I kind. of got into this, it was an accident to. be honest with you. And I was just. really I used to teach weapons and. tactics and I I just got so tired of. that. And um that old story.

>> Yeah. And uh so I was like, well, this. podcasting [ __ ] seems to be taking off. Maybe I'll take a stab at that. And and. I am not a conversationalist. I have. severe social anxiety, especially back. then. >> [clears throat]. >> But uh but I wanted to do you know I. just I kind of saw maybe I don't know if. you would call it a hole in the market. but everybody was. >> doing the Joe Rogan thing and and I what. I really wanted to do is bring on former. colleagues and do a life story and.

document history and talk about. overcoming struggles as a vet combat. veteran and all of that kind of stuff. And then, you know, I was like, the way. I want to do it, I want it to be a. legacy piece. And I kind of studied I. don't know if I'd say study, but I saw. TV, you know, the the thing change the. the the it changes like every 3 to 5. seconds. >> Sure. >> And I was like, okay, that must be an. attention thing. So, I I wanted multiple. cameras and I wanted a comfortable set, you know, where you're not sitting erect.

in front of a microphone and so that. people can really kind of, you know, peel back the onion. I'll let you know. if I'm sitting erect. [laughter]. >> I don't I don't anticipate right. >> anything like that in the next couple. hours. But. >> hey, look, at this point in my life, if. it happens, so I'll take it as a win. >> I'm sure that'll go viral. [laughter]. But but uh. >> no, but but but but it's the it's the. combination of deliberateness.

and honesty. that gives you authenticity. [snorts]. You're a weapons expert, right? >> Mhm. >> That's a very deliberate thing to be. That's a very consequential. space to occupy. Don't have a lot of. room for mistakes. And when you make. one, it leaves a mark, right? >> Yes. >> So, you bring that sensibility into the. communication world. That's interesting.

It's thoughtful, but it's dangerous. because if it goes too far, then. everybody gets a stick up their ass and. then nobody has an honest exchange. On the other hand, you're so. aggressively self-deprecating. You're so. like you're in the communication. business as a self-described introvert. and a terrible conversationalist who has. conversations that often eclipse 3. hours. Now, that makes you. really interesting to somebody like me.

and obviously to the millions of people. who are watching this now because. people love to buy things, but they. don't really like to be sold anything. And so, you know, if if I were. interviewing you, which I hope to one. day, I would love to talk to you about. the way you think about sponsorship and. the way you think about endorsements cuz. I [snorts] make my living in that space. >> Mhm. >> You know, whether directly or through.

the podcast or just by delivering a show. like Dirty Jobs, which was paid for 100%. by advertisers. You and me, we're we're in the. advertising game. >> Mhm. And uh and I think being honest about. that and being honest with your viewer. about that, that's the first thing to do to get. permission. to talk as candidly as you do about the.

subjects you approach. And that's. fragile and it's valuable. and whatever. you've done to navigate that. >> I really appreciate that. Thank you. >> I mean it. It's [clears throat] short. It's a short list. and it's ever changing. So, be careful out there. >> I will. I will. Thank you. >> No misfires, no backfires. >> We've already had a couple. >> Check the chamber.

>> Yeah. Yeah. But, well, let's get to you. So, I'd love to do a uh life story on you. and then. >> I'll wait the car [laughter]. >> and then. >> and then um I know we're going to talk. about some AI data centers and all of. that good stuff. And. >> I can't wait. >> And the. >> I can't I so Is this Black Rifle coffee. I'm drinking? I think it is. I got it. out here. >> Is it? It might be. >> I think it is. It's pretty good. >> It might be Dunkin' Donuts. I don't.

know. >> I'll let you know when I have to get rid. of it. [laughter]. >> All right. All right, >> cuz from what I can tell, I'm liable to. be here for 5 hours. [clears throat]. >> Let me give you an introduction. >> All right, >> Mike Row, you're an Emmy award-winning. television host, producer, narrator, and. best-selling author, best known as the. creator and host of Dirty Jobs. Through. the Mike Row Works Foundation, you've. helped award millions of dollars in work. ethic scholarships and become one of the. nation's strongest advocates for skilled. trades and vocational education. You're.

also the host of the Way I Heard It. podcast, where you interviewed where. you've interviewed everyone from. entrepreneurs to trades people to. scientists and everyday Americans with. extraordinary stories. Throughout your. career, you've challenged conventional. ideas about success, arguing that. opportunity often exists in the jobs. many people overlook. Welcome to the. show. >> Wow. Wow. I mean, it was very uh concise.

and uh I got no beef with any of that. Very flattering and and accurate if I. don't say so myself. Thank you. >> I'm glad you enjoyed it. >> I did. I'd like to hear it again. >> All right. [laughter]. And everybody starts off everybody gets. a gift. >> Oh, >> tell me about these. >> So, those are Vigilance League gummy. bears. And I was just telling you. actually, you know, that when I started. this podcast in my attic with my wife, we couldn't get any advertisers probably.

cuz I had no filter. And uh and uh so we. started a Patreon account and we started. selling gummy bears. and we're still selling them to this. day. >> You got to remember your roots. >> Yep. [snorts] So they're made here in. the USA up in Michigan. >> Love it. Oo. With that in mind, I brought you two things. I was only going to bring the one and. then I did a little, you know, research. You don't drink anymore, right?

>> I don't sober four years. >> And yet, what are we looking at here? >> A lot of booze. >> Ah, doesn't control me anymore. >> You're Sam Malone. You're the bartender. in Cheers. That that's the dichotomy I was talking. about before, right? >> Yeah. >> So, my pop was uh Carl Noble. He uh. inspired dirty jobs. He was a um he only. went to the seventh grade, but by the.

time he was 30, he was a licensed. electrician, a plumber. He he he could. take your watch apart blindfolded, put. it back together. >> Wow. >> He had the chip, right? could build a. house without a blueprint. That guy. And. uh I was I grew up on a little farm in. Baltimore County next to him and my and. my grandmom. And he was the guy. Um.

he cast a like a long shadow, man. He. was so smart and so kind. And my. earliest memories are of he and my dad. like waking up clean and going out into. the world to fix some problem and coming. home dirty. Like that was that was my. first look at work. Anyway, um he uh he. turned 90 and my I was working for that.

thing at CBS I was telling you about, um. Evening Magazine, and my mom called to say, "Michael, you're uh your grandfather's turning 90. years old, and I've got I've got the. perfect gift for you to give him." I'm. like, "All right, what is it?" Now, at. the time, I'm hosting this this local TV. show. And I man, I'd sung in the opera. I'd sold stuff on the QVC cable shopping. channel. I'd had 300 jobs in. broadcasting cuz the handy gene is.

recessive. And even though I wanted to. follow in my pop's footsteps, I just. didn't get the, you know, it didn't come. easy to me. >> Yeah. >> Long story short, his name was Carl. Noble. And when we rebooted Dirty Jobs. during lockdown, uh, I decided to put his name on some. whiskey that's made down the street here. as a fundraiser for my foundation. >> That is cool. >> Well, we're in 30 states now. The thing has. won I don't know how many gold medals.

and it's totally out of control. And I'm like, I guess I'm in the liquor. business. I didn't mean to be, but my. granddad, who really didn't drink. either, his name is now on a bottle of. award-winning whiskey, and I I just. wanted you to to have it to do with what. you will. Give it away, put it on. display. >> Thank you. And then, Very cool. You You definitely don't have this one, but you strike me as the kind of guy.

that probably has a knife or two lying. around. >> So, I become friends with a guy called. Josh Smith. Oh, I know Josh. >> Do you? >> Yeah. >> Have you had him on? >> No, I've met him at a couple events. >> This guy came on my podcast a couple. years ago and said some really nice. things about my foundation. And um. and I said, "If you make a Microworks. knife to help me raise some money for. these scholarships we do, um you know,

that would be awesome." So, of course, he did and we raised like a hundred. grand in 3 days. And then he said, "Mike, this matters to me a lot." So, he. he he made what he described as the. ultimate bluecollar. utility knife. He called it the rocker. and he gives a chunk of every sale back. to my foundation. I didn't ask him to do. this. This guy started, he was a lineman. who starts making knives in his garage.

>> He was a lineman. He was a lineman for. years. Farmboy working with electricity, also a bladesmith. Gets a deal when he's a teenager to go. make a sword for a chic over in Saudi. Arabia somewhere. And he does it, comes. back, winds up getting on um what is. that show? Forged in steel or something. like that, right? So, he gets a little. notoriety and decides, I'm going to make. the best knives in the country in my. garage. So, that's basically what he and.

his wife did, just like you started this. podcast. >> Wow. >> So, he opens his facility a month and a. half ago. He took it up a notch in the. same way you did, dude. He's got 120. employees. He's doing like $12 million a year. making knives in the USA. >> I love it. >> And this is the very first version of. the rocker. He's just re-uped it. It.

benefits my foundation and he wanted you. to have the first one. So, let's take a look here. And and for me, man, look, this country. is either going to figure out how to. start making things again, or it's going to circle the drain. >> Yeah. >> And if we can do it with a knife, we. ought to be able to do it with a car. We.

ought to be able to do it with the. chairs we're sitting in. >> Look at that beauty. >> It's ridiculous. >> Oh, yeah. >> And it's Look at that. >> It's sharp. and he'll keep it sharp for. the rest of your life. Just send it back. if it needs sharpening. >> No kidding. >> It's a great American story. It's a. great product. And you know, modesty. aside, I was just last night, I was. talking to my partner about this. It's. like, you know, the business of making.

whiskey and doing it right. The business. of making a knife and doing it right. The business of making a podcast, doing. it right, shooting a gun, doing it. right. getting it getting it done. Whatever the. it is. That's the. That's the jam. That's the That's what's. for sale, I think. >> What a great guy. >> I'm glad you guys are partnered. >> Yeah.

>> And uh Yeah, I've seen his facility and. and uh I didn't know where he I didn't. know he's a lineman, but I know he had. just built that facility. And I think I. know it started as kind of a grassroots. very small shop. And I I I just I love. those stories because I think that's. what that's what brings hope to all the. people out there that are saying you. can't make it. There's no way. American. dream's gone. It's like no, it's not. You just got to find the thing. >> Yeah. >> That resonates with you.

>> And so. >> what is the American dream? I think the American dream is the fact. that you can come here and build. anything you want and find success if. you work hard, if you have a hard work. ethic, a good work ethic and uh and a. creative idea. Let me run this by I got. one of the news agencies asked me to. write 400 words. on whether the American dream is alive. or dead and and why. And you know, I.

normally don't don't do that stuff, but. it was it was on my mind. And you know, we're going to be 250 right in a couple. of weeks. And so I went this way just because I. didn't want to say the same thing I. thought everybody else would probably. say. I said, uh, uh, the American dream. died a long time ago, and I'm really. glad it did. And I'll tell you why. It. died in 1783. when we signed the Treaty of Paris and.

actually became the United States. Prior. to that, everything we had dreamt of, life and liberty, the pursuit of. happiness, the Bill of Rights, all these. ideas, they were dreams. And then they were real and they've been. real ever since. So yeah, the American dream was a thing. And then it turned into the American. reality. And now it's a reality that we.

get to shape for ourselves. And your experience may vary. You know, maybe you'll make whiskey, maybe you'll. make knives, maybe you'll make TV shows. about work, maybe you'll make a podcast. that whatever it is. But the idea that. that um that you that that that doesn't. exist, it's just bananas. Of course it exists. It it it has for as long as I've been. alive and I think for as long as we've.

been us. >> Yeah. I I know it's still alive. I mean. I got two examples that are recent. within the past four years. One of them. when I finally got out of my attic. >> Dude, that should be your book if you. haven't written it yet. >> When I when I when the wife finally. kicked me out of the attic. So I don't. want these people over here anymore. Um, I went got a very uh small garage like a. auto mechanics, you know, one one one.

bay garage and uh with two offices in it. [clears throat]. and we built the studio in there and. I had I couldn't afford a construction, you know, crew to come in and design it, do all the [ __ ] and so there was a. building being put up right across the. street. Of course, bunch of Latino. workers. I went over there. None of them. spoke English. I speak Spanish. They come over. They're like, it was. around Easter. And he's like, I can come. over on Easter Sunday and I'll frame.

this whole thing out for you. And I was. like, perfect. >> Mhm. [clears throat]. >> Couple years later, I had him do some. more work and he's telling me he comes. around. He's speaking English now. He's. got some new cologne on. He's got a nice. watch, good sunglasses, a brand new car, and he goes, he's just telling me he's. like, you know, I have like five crews. now. And I'm like, that's [ __ ]. awesome, man. Good for you. Like, come.

here. You work your ass off. You don't. [ __ ] whine and complain. You work. >> on Easter Sunday. >> Now you have five crews. >> Yeah. >> And you can't even keep up. That's. awesome. And then another one, uh, Laura, who you met. >> Yeah. Uh my. >> She's awesome, by the way. Your whole. team. >> solid, dude. >> It's like a family here. >> Really great. >> But her husband just he started a fence. company earlier this year and uh I think. he's going to clear like $200 or. $300,000 in revenue on his first year.

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Sundays fordogs.com/srs50. or use code SRS50 at checkout. >> Is this for Patreon or is this. >> Yeah, this is for Patreon. We got a. couple questions for you. Hit me. >> TJ Smith. Mike, you often champion. skilled trades is a path to opportunity. How can young Americans entering. bluecollar careers today realistically. achieve financial stability, a healthy. family life, and a promising retirement.

when the cost seems to demand more. hours, more overtime, and less time at. home? I would start by saying that. virtually everyone who is [music]. working in the trades through my. scholarship is mid6 figures. They're. killing it. Not everyone, but it's not. like the challenges you're going to face. as a young person getting started are. the result of the trade. People hate to. hear this.

>> [music]. >> Why do you think stories like that. inspire. certain cohorts. but anger others? >> Like what? Like why is success. so annoying to some people and so. inspirational to others? I like the.

interception. Great question. I think that um I mean. it's just an entitlement problem. M. >> I think people don't they. I don't really know where it comes from, but I I think that that there's just a. lot of people out there that that are. unwilling to put the work in or maybe. they. went to a prestigious school and thought. something was going to happen afterwards. and didn't and they see somebody who.

>> maybe have maybe has a lower IQ who's. not as smart as them and not as well. educated. and D, but they have the work. ethic and they don't have that. entitlement and it just it works, you. know, and and. >> yeah, I was thinking about this in the. shower this morning, weirdly. Um the I. feel like maybe to some extent. some excuses have been uh removed.

Like I don't know. I I feel sometimes. like there's so much information out. there, like I'm drinking from a fire. hose, you know, like there's so much to. learn and no matter how much you learn, all you really wind up concluding is. that. the more you realize. you don't know. >> Yeah. >> Like the more you know, the more you. realize you don't. >> And it's it's like like So that's that's. one thing. But the other thing about all. the information, all the podcasts, all.

the interesting guests is that it's all. that's adjacent to all the knowledge in. the world, right? I mean, like if you. have one of these things and an internet. connection, you have access to 98% of every single. thing we we've ever known. And it and. it's accessible. Point is like if you. don't understand algebra or trigonometry. or calculus, if you don't if you can't. make a persuasive case for the relevance.

of the stoics or philosophy, if you. can't talk at all about nichi or de cart. or force equals mass times acceleration, if you don't like if you don't have any. of that, what's your excuse. like for a long time like maybe most of. most of all of time you could say I I. don't have access to that. I don't have. money. I can't go to a school. I don't I.

was born here. I look like this. I look. like that. I just don't have access. Like there's no way I could ever, you. know, be that um informed. But if you're curious, which I think is. a choice, right? It's kind of like work. ethic. like you you can choose to be. curious. >> Well, [clears throat] now your. accessibility is unlimited. You can get. to any site, anywhere, anytime, 24 hours. a day. I I literally just watched a.

lecture from MIT from my hotel room the. other day for free. It's like we're living in a time where. there's absolutely no excuse not to be. informed. But at the same time, we are. so overwhelmed. with information. that we're exhausted by it. So, I'm not. sure what the point is exactly except. back to your first question. How do I. like podcasting?

It's kind of hard to answer. because I feel like part of what I'm. trying to navigate is all these smart. people with all these incredible ideas. and they've made their documentaries and. they've written their books and they've. accomplished so much and I and I and I. want to hear about it, but I can't get. to all of them. >> Yeah. And and then I turn on the news. and I saw this clip the other day that. really made me laugh. The guy's like, "Is it just me or does anybody else just. not give a [ __ ] anymore? [laughter].

Like is it just me or like what what is. happening with the chemtrails? Why do I. care? How much should I care? The seed. oils. Is this a problem? Is it a big. problem? Maha MAGA. What the straight of. Hormuz? Why do I know about that? Why? Why do I know? Like, don't don't you. care? Don't you don't you want to know. what's going on? Well, yes, I do. But then once I know, you're just going. to tell me about something else that I.

didn't know and and I don't know what to. do with that information. >> Yeah. >> Anyway, if there's a point in all that, it's that people love your show because. you're a you're a dosent. in a dosent. >> A dossent is a fancy word for a guide in. a museum. Like you walk into a museum for the. first time, it's overwhelming. I don't. know if you've been to the Smithsonian. >> Mhm. >> It's overwhelming.

It's like you can't even begin to get. your head around the totality of the. exhibits. So, you need a dosent to walk. you around and explain what's what the. context. Like, I need a dosent in this. room. You we could probably spend an. hour. You could walk me around and you. could explain why the things on your. wall are there and they would have new. meaning for me, but I can't look at any. of it and and know anything. I need a. guide, dude. I need somebody to walk me.

through the weaponry. I need somebody to. We all do. I was at a cheesecake factory. the other day. What's the last time you. went at a cheesecake factory? >> It's been a while. >> Check out the menu. It's just thick. >> Yeah. It's there are hundreds of entre. There. are thousand desserts. There are. pictures. >> Everything from a chill bowl of chili to. sushi. There's an index in the menu. There's a table of contents. Because the.

menu is so big, you you you need a dose. You need a guide to f I just want a. cheeseburger. Well, what kind? On page. 34, you'll notice we can you got the wag. goo, you got the. I think people are exhausted by the. amount of information and aware that. they're never going to be able to. process all of it. And on the other. hand, I think people are embarrassed by. their own ignorance because there's no. excuse for it. [snorts]. And somewhere in between.

this place called I call it uh podcast. landia. This mythical kind of Narnia. evolved where dosants and guides have. appeared to help us make sense. of the inexplicable. It's a good point. Couple things. The. coolest thing in this room is that sword. up there. That's from a 100. He's going. to be 103. this year, I believe.

>> Up there. >> Yep. That sword up there. 103. year old World War II veteran. His. name's Don Graves. He was a flamethrower. in Euoa. And he came in and he saw all. this stuff. Mo the majority of this. stuff is not mine. It's from guests that. have been on the show. And so he he. said, "Oh, I have something for you.". And he sent in that sword that he took. off a Japanese. Is that a Japanese? >> Yep. >> The mandatory one they carried for the.

what's the name is Sapoku? >> I can't remember. >> I think it's Sapoku or something like. that. But so he was on Ewell. >> Yep. Another thing. So the you had just. mentioned there's so much you thought. you knew so much from all the. information that you've gathered that. you made it made you realize you don't. know anything. >> Yeah. >> That's where I'm at. pretty recently. came to this conclusion. I mean after uh. what. 5 years of building this I thought I.

knew who our biggest enemies were all. these things right all this stuff in. tech and I was building this you know. thing of knowledge. >> little monument to yourself maybe. >> yeah and then. everything I thought I believed in and. was for has [laughter]. been the complete opposite and uh it. It just made me realize Sean, you don't. know [ __ ] Nothing.

>> Well, when did you arrive to that. conclusion? >> Oh, I have a version of it every day. Um, the Greeks have a great word for it. They have two great terms I love. Uh, the Greek word for discovery. is anagnaresis. And uh Aristotle writes about it a lot. when he tries to define what makes a.

plot good, right? Plots are driven. forward by discoveries. The characters. on a hero's journey. They discover. things along the way that informs their. uh their worldview, their perceptions, and so forth. All good dramas, especially A hero's journey, are are. littered with an anagnaresis. And um. but the great stories,

you know, the ones that win Emmys and. the ones that we quote, they all have a. a specific form of anagnaresis. It's. called a parapetia or a parapotetic. moment or a paripy. You can find it in. your favorite movie, I guarantee it, or. your favorite book. And it's a form of. discovery when our hero. uh realizes that everything he thought. he knew was wrong.

It's literally the realization that. changes the course of the narrative. And remember Aristotle he he defined a. tragedy uh as the moment in a narrative. when the hero comes face to face with. the undeniable and inescapable. truth of his own reality. [gasps]. So. these parapetas.

if you look for them you'll find them. everywhere. Like the most famous one is. probably in u in Edipus, Edipus Rex, the. the famous king. who discovers. through the story through Anagnaresis uh. a great many things about life and. leadership and war, you know, and uh. among these discoveries is the fact that. he he really enjoys the company of uh of. older women. And so he of course famously.

uh marries one and the plot goes along. and Edipus is the king and and then in. act four I think you know he has a he. has his parapetia when he realizes his. his wife with whom he's had several. children is his mother. Now when you realize your wife is also. your mom, [snorts] your narrative goes. in a different direction. [laughter].

Okay, this is why people still quote Edipus. today. It's why like if you watch the. sixth sense. like Bruce Willis, the whole movie is an. Agnaresis. Oh, he's a psychiatrist and. there's this little kid Cole. Poor. Cole's he's got mental problems. Why? Well, he sees dead people and the plot. unfolds and it's wrapped in mystery and. pretty soon Bruce discovers that this. little kid is pretty great and in fact.

you know what maybe he's not crazy and. in the end he has his parapetia when he. realizes a the kid really can see dead. people and b the kid is looking at him. air go see he's dead. and when you realize you've been dead. the whole movie and you're the hero. changes the direction of the narrative. >> Yeah. >> So, so maybe maybe you had a parapetia. Maybe you realized everything you.

thought you knew or believed in just. kind of [ __ ] the bed and now maybe you. got to figure out. what do you do about that. [laughter]. >> I don't know what the hell you do about. that, but. >> well, starting over. >> This is why God gave us a sense of. humor. It's why he gave us a sense of. curiosity and most of all it's why we. have a thing called humility. >> Mhm. I think I mean that's my theory and I I.

I look back at the parapetas in my life. and uh they are always. uh humbling, discerning, unsettling. and really important. [sighs]. >> Yep. I definitely took something out of. that one. [laughter]. >> Well, what was it, man? Was what was the. inciting incident? I saw your interview. with uh Megan. >> Well, there was a lot of it was within.

that, but. >> I mean, drip drip drip frog in the. boiling water or like. probably drip drip. Uh, it didn't take. long. [laughter] So, probably frog in. the boiling water. It was from the. get-go I was kind of like, I don't know. about how this is all going. But what it. taught me is, you know, maybe don't get. so [ __ ] tied to your own opinions.

>> Don't fall in love with your own smack. >> Nope. So, it's taught me to be a lot more. open-minded, and I always considered. myself pretty open-minded, but uh after. this last goound, I don't think I will involve myself in. politics very much longer. Were you ever really involved in. politics or were you just. >> It kind of just happened. It kind of. just happened and uh and I wouldn't say.

I'm involved in politics just through. the interviews, you know, but uh yeah, it it just uh. that last presidential election, I tried. to get everybody. Actually, I did try to. get everybody. I really tried to get. Camala. We did a couple press releases. to try to pressure her to get on. and we. were talking with her team and she. wouldn't come but uh she said she was. going to come for a while and then it. just kind of fell off but cuz I always. wanted to be fair and balanced but. unfortunately I couldn't get anybody.

from that side. >> Why do you want to be fair and balanced? >> I want to know I I think it's important. that you know what everybody's. perspective on things are because you. one thing that I did that would would go. way against what I thought my audience. would like is I interviewed this guy his. name is Chris Beck. Are you familiar. with him? >> Give me more. >> The first transgender Navy Seal. >> Yes. >> He wrote the uh the Warrior Princess. And everybody in the SEAL teams just.

despised this person. And to be honest. with you, he's he's one of the most. brilliant people I've ever sat with. I. mean, the way his mind works and uh what. he's invented and and uh he's he's just. really really bright guy. Um. [clears throat]. but anyways, I wanted to bring him on. because I I was I have an opinion about. that issue, especially when it comes to. kids. >> and he has since transitioned back.

>> to male. And so I wanted to give him a. platform and I wanted to hear his. journey, you know, like like his legit. journey and how it happened. what the process was like, why he. decided to come back without injecting. my own opinions or biases. And you kind. of the point was the interview for me. was I wanted to showcase this is what it. this is what you kids are in for. If. you're if you're looking to do this, here's the road map. this is what you're.

in for. Help him make maybe somewhat of. a more educated POS um. decision, you know, and. nobody else would do it. And it was. fascinating and it made me understand. I. was like, okay, that's how that could happen. >> So, he came in or No, >> he did come. >> He did come. >> It was an awesome episode. It's one of. my favorite episodes. And you know, um,

when he describes how it happened, it kind of, for me at least, it kind of. opened my heart up to. >> the transition or the retransition. >> To the transition. I just wanted to. understand, you know, like how the how. the [ __ ] can somebody go through this? >> Yeah. >> And the way he described it and what. happened to him, which was horrific. I. mean, it would cliffnotes version. horrific childhood, severe abuse, lots. of sexual abuse, uh the whipping boy of.

the family. >> And um so he would go up to the attic by. himself and wear his sister's clothes, not because he wanted to be a woman, but. because all that kid knew was getting. his ass whipped by his old man and being. sexually abused by the neighbor. And so. he just wanted to feel like he was. somebody he just didn't want to be him. cuz he had no happiness. He just lived. in fear and and dealt with severe trauma.

from a very young age. And so he would. go up to the attic, he try this [ __ ]. dress on and he would pretend that he. was his sister because his sister was. like the golden child of the family. >> And it wasn't a dress obviously. It was. armor. >> Yep. >> He put his armor on. >> So fast forward, then he becomes a Navy. Seal. He's has all that trauma to deal. with. gets hooked on cocaine. He's. riding with the Hell's Angels. D starts. going to therapy to clean it up. Tells. the therap, you know, if you've ever. done therapy, you know you're going back. to childhood. And tells the therapist.

about the dress when it is childhood. And she is an activist. and there it is. You want to be a woman. You want to write a book. You want to do. this. You want to do that. And um he. wrote the book High on Drugs. And while. he was high on drugs, she slipped him an. NDA or not an NDA, a uh whatever a. contract. She he signed over the rights. to the book to this therapist.

>> Mhm. >> Anyways, so that's how it happened. And. when you think about it, while it wouldn't be the direction I. would go, I can at least understand. like, [ __ ] man. You've been through. some horrific [ __ ] that most people can. will never understand. And this is a. path that you kind of got coaxed into. But now you're now you're back. Whether. you came back or not though, I could. still understand. Yeah. You know, like. >> All right. Go ahead.

>> Because you know, [clears throat]. it feels to me sometimes like people. think in order to understand a person, they have to understand. their circumstances. But you really don't. Like if you. understand anaggnaresis and the hero's. journey, if you understand parapetia and. if you can find one in your own life, it's a lot easier to see them in other. people's lives. And even though the.

circumstances might seem wildly. divergent, the feeling isn't when you. realize that everything you thought you. knew about a thing that you were good at. was wrong. that I mean if you're being honest with. yourself in my opinion uh the real gift. of that is that you can see it in other. people and maybe maybe it helps with. your empathy.

Maybe it just helps to be a better. human, you know, to be to be honest. Now. your parapetia may may vary. You know, you like oh no, my wife's my mom. Wow. I. mean like that's that's over here. My. parapetia was I I realized I was a was. not a very good host actually and I was. in the hosting business. You know I. don't consider yourself a good host. I'm. okay. I'm good enough I'm a good enough.

host to make a living. like I'm. if if I'm at the slot machine and I'm. pulling the lever, the host lever, it. pays enough to keep me pulling the. lever. And that's what I did for 20. years. I impersonated a host on Dirty. Jobs. I I realized actually I I wasn't I. was more of a a guest or an apprentice. maybe or like an avatar. Like I started. to think differently about my own job in. the sewer in San Francisco when I was.

filming the first episode. It was like, "Oh, a light bulb. I'm way better. not knowing things I don't know than. pretending to know things.". >> Oh, yeah. >> I'm way better. And the viewer likes me. a lot more if I'm honest about my. shortcomings. >> Oh, yeah. [snorts] of which there are. many. That was a parapetia for me. because I've been paid for 20 years to. hit the mark and say the line.

I It's not that I'm a bad host. I can I. can look in the lens and I can talk like. this and I can say any number of things. that you know would generate a paycheck. once upon a time. That's not what Dirty. Jobs was and that's not what most of the. stuff I've done since then is parapetia. like oh you know. Anyhow, um. your brain. when you tell your brain what to. what to find,

it'll it'll find it. You know, when you. tell it what to look for, you know, it's. a very simple yet complicated mechanism. So with regard to. everything that's been in the headlines. from my point of view for the last. however long. I I try and think well who's who's. having the anagaresis who's having the. parapetia. and right now I think God man that's. that's part of the back to your first.

question how do I like podcasting well I. love it because it's filled with these. parapotetic moments you know and a lot. of people are writing books and telling. stories whether they know it or not that. kind of hinge on that moment. Chris Beck. certainly did. I mean that that book is. parapetia 101. >> Mhm. Um, [clears throat] so yeah, I I. the only way to to understand all the.

craziness and all the divergence around. us. is to have a look at the divergence and. the craziness within us. >> Have you had any recently? >> Parapetas. No, I'm right now I'm having a pretty. good run on uh you know the I told you. so circuit uh which is the opposite. [laughter].

I mean [clears throat]. I run this foundation called Microworks. It evolved out of dirty jobs. Uh we. award work ethic scholarships to kids. who want to learn a trade. >> I saw that. This is your first year. It's 10 million this year. Correct. It's. 10 million this year, but 18 years ago. it was zero. Um, I started it when Dirty. Jobs was at its height. And [snorts]. you're old enough to remember this 2008.

Uh, Dirty Jobs was on in 140 countries. It was launching spin-offs every week. I. was killing it. I I was having the time. of my life. I was doing the show I. should be doing. on the network I loved. [gasps]. Everything's perfect. Uh the country. went into a recession and every morning. there are these um headlines about the. number of people who are out of work. 6. million, 8 million, 10, 12 million.

people. And on Dirty Jobs, it seemed. like everywhere we went, we we saw help. wanted signs. So I was like, well, what's why are all these people. unemployed and why are all these. opportunities open? And that was my. first introduction to uh the skills gap. in America. At the time in 2008, there. were 2.3 million open jobs. Most of them. didn't require a 4-year degree. They. required training. And people who were. willing to show up early, stay late, and.

work, you know, and I would go out after. most of these shoots with the people who. invited us in. We'd have a beer. We'd. talk about the day. And a lot of these. guys were, you know, small business. owners, men and women. And I would ask. them, you know, what's the biggest. challenge. you have to make a go of it, whether. it's whiskey or knives or like what's. your what's the sticky point? And it was. always that. It was finding that person.

who wanted to master a skill and apply. it. Anyhow, Microworks was an attempt to. shine a light on those jobs that were. open because those industries had been. had been very good to me. And uh and it. grew from there. Uh. fans of Dirty Jobs built a massive trade. resource center online like zip code by. zip code that hooked people up to jobs.

that were available right in their area. And this was kind of alarming because. the headlines, remember, were like there. are no jobs. All these people are out of. work. And so there's this idea, which is. really like an artifact, I think, from. the Great Depression that the way to get. rid of unemployment is to create more. jobs. But that doesn't quite line up. because there were 2.5 million open jobs. in 2009. when 12 million people were out of work.

Today, there are 7.5 million open jobs. right now. Are there really 7.5 million? Most of them don't require a 4-year. degree. They require training and a. willingness to work. Also, quick sidebar, but. outstanding student debt is $1.7. trillion. Most of that's held by people who went. to university, many of whom didn't. graduate, but got the debt nevertheless.

You've got 6.9 million men, able-bodied, who are not only not working, they're. not looking for work. And that's never. happened. Not in peace time anyway. And. maybe you could argue we're not exactly. in peace time, but you got 7 million. guys not working. You've got 7.4 4 million open jobs. You've got $1.7 trillion in outstanding. student loans. We're still telling kids.

that the best path for the most people. is the most expensive path. And we're. lending money we don't have to these. same kids who are never going to be able. to pay it back to train them for a bunch. of jobs that don't exist anymore. It's. bananas. Stupid. So microworks became an. attempt to just cry foul on all of that. and make a more persuasive case for the. jobs that we do have. So flash forward, I was kidding about the victory lap, but.

a lot of what I was arguing back in the. day has has come to pass. I went to. Congress twice to talk about the need. for a national effort to reinvigorate. the skilled trades. Um, my basic. argument was, look, you you have to. prove to this generation that you can. make six figures working with your. hands. You have to you have to show them. welders who are prospering and. electricians and steam fitters and pipe. fitters and mechanics. people like my.

granddad, you know, who. >> who weren't cut out at all for college, >> but who were freaking smart. >> and eager to apply their knowledge, you. know, like you've got to you got to find. that kid and you have to show them this. path because that's the right path for. them. And right now, look, we took shop. class out of high school. Had to be the. dumbest thing in the history of modern. education, right? So, we set the table in a really. jacked up way and today.

we have. uh a colossal imbalance in the. workforce. And most people simply don't. realize how bad it is. But not a week. goes by. I'm not I'm not even. exaggerating that Microworks doesn't. hear from the leader of some. consequential industry or the CEO of a. big company or some elected official who.

is really like ringing the alarm bell. worried about the skills gap. Blue Forge. Alliance, the company that oversees the. maritime industrial base. I'm sure. you're familiar. They're they're 15,000. companies who are collectively charged. with delivering our submarines, our. nuclearpowered subs. Two Colombia, one. Virginia class a year. I think it's a. two plus one cadence. I might have them. reversed, but it's a massive. undertaking.

We need three a year. They called. They're like, "We're having a hell of a. time finding finding welders and. electricians. Can you help?" I said, "Maybe. How many do you need?". 400,000. >> 400,000 welders. >> Four in in [laughter]. the next 8 years, they need to hire. 400,000 skilled workers. Many are. welders. The ship building industry, China built a thousand ships last year. We built three.

>> Yeah. >> Right. Rare earths, critical minerals. We can get into all that stuff, too. But. the front line of this is is skilled. labor. The data center thing, dude. Larry Frink, who runs Black Rockck, told. me that the companies in his portfolio. alone needed 300,000 electricians. What's coming is an infrastructure. buildout that's being calculated at 9 to.

10 trillion dollars over the next 9. years. A lot of it's data centers, but. it's a lot of other stuff, too. And we. can get into data centers and AI. It's. all fascinating to me, but it's all kind. of academic. if you can't build them. And if you. can't build them because of a shortage. of skilled labor, that'll go down in. history of one of the greatest unforced. errors of all time. And that's what. people are beginning to realize. We have.

to reinvigorate the trades. We must or. we're going to be in a level of trouble. that's truly unprecedented. Sorry, I. know I'm I'm rambling, but every five. tradesmen, for every five who retire. this year, two replace them. >> That's what I was going to ask. Do you. have any idea how many welders there are. in the US right now? >> I can tell you that whatever the number. is, we need 400,000 more.

I can tell you we're underwater. Like, it's worse with electricians right now. I was in Plano, Texas a couple months. ago. got a tour of a data center. I've. been talking about them for a while, but. I hadn't really seen one up close. Oh my god. I mean, amazing. Uh kind of terrifying, but also kind of. awesome. Uh enormous. I ran into three.

electricians, all under 30, all making north of 240 grand a year, all debtfree. Now, here here's the craziest part. All. three had been poached three times in. the prior 18 months. Now, does that mean that's going on in. Sacramento and Phoenix and Tallahassee. and Bangor? I I don't know, but it's. going on in Plano and it's happening in.

different areas. The the shortages are. so acute that the companies don't have. time to to train. They have to poach. And so great news for an electrician, but it's a little weird for the economy. overall. So, long story short, uh this issue has. been in front of me for years and it. evolved organically. out of dirty jobs and now I'm back in DC. because the Department of War got the.

memo and they're going to launch a big. campaign in the next couple of weeks. I'm going to be in it. It's going to be. called build freedom and we're going to. try and make a more persuasive case for. these jobs that exist in the industrial. base. I just sat with the president of. Meta yesterday in front of Maria Baromo. to announce their initiative. It's. called uh America's Workplace Academy. Dude, these guys are they're they're in.

four states. They're they want to be an. all 50, but the pilot program is an. appeal to anybody who wants to learn to. be an electrician or a or a fiber optic. specialist. The these are all in demand. They're paying you to learn. It's a. fiveweek accelerated course. You you're. guaranteed your certifications. All your expenses are covered, travel, everything, and you're guaranteed a job. on the other end. Wow.

Now, that's what's going on in workforce. And. you can go down the list. Met is one. company. You look at Lowe's and Home. Depot and Ford. You look at Wells Fargo. who supports my foundation. A bank is. become the biggest supporter of my. foundation and not a traditional like. bluecollar company. Why? Because they. know. They know what's coming. They've. done the math. It's a problem. Wow.

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>> I know you've been beating this drum for. a long time, but when did you I mean, this was way before AI and all this. other [ __ ] was even on the radar. So, what was what was the first inkling that. you got that you were like, "This is. going to become a problem?" Well, on a. personal level, uh, I become friends. with the guy that built my house, and I. think the youngest guy on his crew was. 55. And so I started talking to general.

contractors, you know, in the. construction game just to say, "What. how's the how do you recruit? How do you. keep them? How long do they stay? What. are the barrier?" and and it's just. shocking. Look, this whole thing, the. the sheer numbers are a problem. The. demographics are a problem. There's just. you don't need to be an economist to. know that five out and two in is no. bueno. Um but it's the stigmas and the. stereotypes and the myths and the.

misperceptions that have kept a whole. generation of kids from really looking. at these jobs. Um, to this day, if I. tell you this, we've had 3,500 people go. through my program. I got a story just. like the one you told me, uh, the guy. that helped build your place out. Do you. remember his name? Do you remember the. the whole situation? I mean, I don't. want to, >> uh, I don't off the top of my head. It's. just it's just funny for me like the. ones who who who who stick out, but. there was a kid named Michael Gomez who.

applied for a work ethic scholarship. from my foundation maybe I don't know 6. years ago. Uh first kid in his family to go to. college. He was 2 years in and he was in. a panic because he realized as it turns. out mechanical engineering wasn't the. thing he really was passionate about. He. he just wanted to work on cars like his. granddad and he was a gifted mechanic, but he was going down the wrong road and. he already had debt. So, he fills out.

his application, which is a pain in the. ass. I admit it. You got to jump through. hoops if you're I'm very stingy with the. money I raised. But this kid said all. the right things, signed our sweat. pledge, made a persuasive case for. himself. All the references were good. Gave him some money. He went to UTI, got. his uh got his certification, and a year later was like running the. shop for Beverly Hills BMW. [laughter].

And now he's way up the food chain at. Rivian. Like he's making six figures. He's got a kid. He's living a. He's making his own knife. He's making. his own hooch. He's making his own. podcast. He's he's he's. carved out like a real chunk. It's. exactly the story you were telling me. I. got 3,500 of those, man. So, yeah, I'm. talking to the Department of War and. Meta and Ford. and a lot of people at the grown-up.

table and I'm telling them all the same. thing. It's like, you've got employees. who are like Michael Gomez. The country needs to meet him. I can tell a story anecdotally and so. can a lot of big companies. But in the. same way your viewers can smell. [ __ ] the [ __ ] meter is finely. tuned in this country right now. >> Not anywhere more so than in the. generation that needs to enter the.

skilled trades. >> So they can't be marketed to in a. traditional way. They can't be oversold. The good news is the there's a. persuasive case to be made and there's. plenty of evidence and the evidence. demands a verdict. And so to answer your. question, I'm not experiencing a. parapetia at the moment. I'm. experiencing something more like um. irony and and. the surreal moment.

when the headlines. catch up to your own smack. [laughter] and and make and and make you. relevant in ways that you didn't totally. anticipate. >> Yeah. Maybe that you didn't want to. happen. >> No, I'm good. I'll take it this time. I. want this. I want it. I'm I'm proud of. my team. I'm proud of my partners. And I. and I'm I'm really proud to have a a. seat at the table, you know, and and and.

if that's what Dirty Jobs was for. And. look, I love that show. And I I loved. every moment of it really. But it's just. a show. Shows come and they go and and. people remember it fondly, and I'm I'm. happy for that. But it launched this. thing. And it gave me permission to sit with. the Secretary of War and the Secretary. of Labor and the Secretary of Energy and. all the cats who are now paying.

attention. >> That's a kick, man. >> What I meant is maybe the situation that. we found ourselves in right now. Not not. what's happening for you and your. foundation, but just the situation in. general because I feel like it's pretty. fragile. When has it ever not been fragile? >> True. >> I mean, in this way, it is a little. unnerving because an out-of- balance. workforce is is a problem. But man, this. last 250 years, if it's not one thing,

it's another. If it's not a civil rights. problem, it's an infrastructure problem, it's a corruption problem, it's a fraud. problem, it's a trust problem. We've had. problems. We've had the same problems. for a long time. I think maybe they feel a little. elevated right now. Yeah, I would say that's [laughter]. that's a good description. >> Little elev. >> So, what what is it that you and the.

Department of War are going to do? >> Well, their objective is to make a more. persuasive and more honest case for a. couple hundred thousand jobs that are. wide open in the DIB. That's the defense. industrial base. And. my my suggestion is to visit the. companies, consequential companies that. a lot of people probably haven't heard. of that are really anxious to hire and.

have great AI proof six-figure jobs that. they're trying to fill that I I call. them jobs of consequence, you know, like. like a chance to work on the kind of. hack that I think is going to define. the future for the for the country. So. maybe it's Anderil, maybe it's. Palunteer, maybe it's a maybe it's a company called.

Hadrien, maybe it's Apex. They're making. satellites uh in a mass-produced way. Bit of a game changer. Take the. satellites out of the sketch and there's. there's no strategy. There's there's no. warfare as we understand it. Mhm. >> today. Anyway, so introducing people to. some of these some of these companies. There's a company called Mach who I'm. going to talk to in a couple of weeks. >> You're going to love you're going to. love talking to Ethan.

>> Yeah. >> [ __ ] amazing guy. >> Love that guy. >> He's coming on my podcast next week. >> So, I'm going to talk to Ethan and with. his permission, I'm going to take. cameras to the facility. I want the. country to understand what that. brilliant 22year-old is doing. He's got his hands on. something really important. And I know you you [clears throat] know. this. There's like a there's an.

ecosystem of people under 40. who are running companies and doing. things that are so freaking cool. They're just cool and and and those. opportunities. need to be presented, not sold because. nobody wants to be sold anything, but. people want to buy into something. that that matters. And so, yeah, I'm. looking for companies like that. I'm. looking for entrepreneurs like him that.

are creating jobs like the ones that are. AI proof and six figureish. And then I I want to tap the country on. the shoulder and go, "Hey, get a hello to him. Get a hello to her. Look at what they're doing. Can you see. a future in there for yourself?" No. wrong answer, but at least look at it. You know, cuz if you can't see it, you. can't even. you can't even process it. That that was. the crime of taking shop class out of.

high school. It it it didn't just build. a detour for a lot of kids who could. have entered that vocation. It removed. the work from from sight. So just a a a. guy like me who was going to get in the. entertainment business, just walking. from math class to English class, you. know, I could stick my head into a to a. wood shop or a metal shop or an auto. shop and I could see something going on. that looked like real work. That went. away. They had a whole education of kids.

who weren't even exposed to anything. like it, man. I mean, you see a lot of kids now, they don't you can't even change a light. bulb, you know. But, um, you. [clears throat] know, so what is the Department of War going. to do? That's what I'm because I I have. a suggestion. I mean, there's there's. all these military jobs that are also. going to go away. pilots. I mean, pilots. have been on the chopping block since I. was at war back in what, 2005?

>> We had drones back then. Now, it's all. it's all going to drones. You don't need. drones. You don't need boat captains or. I mean, excuse me, you don't really need. pilots much anymore. You don't really. need boat captains. I mean, AI is. handling a lot of these kind of things. Why don't we just start manufacturing. our own [ __ ] from within the military. and start start instead of hey. recruiting for pilots, recruiting for.

whatever the job is that AI is going to. replace, why don't you recruit for. [ __ ] welders and plumbers and metal. workers and. >> that. >> all of that? Why don't why don't they do. that? And then those people get out and. then they go into the economy and it. just [ __ ] works. >> That's what this is. This is not a be. all you can be pitch to join the army or. the navy or the marines. This is not. that. This is more look at the massive.

civilian infrastructure that serves. those endeavors. You never meet the people who are most. responsible for making the hardware or. in other adjacent industries. That's. that's where that's where most of the. action really is. That's where most of. the work really happens. You know, most. people, you know, they can aspire to be. a pilot. And it's a good point. You can. see what's going to be downsized. You.

can see what's going to change. But like. the work that's not going to. Electricians are not going to go away. Plumbers are not going to go away. Welders are not going to be replaced. Not anytime soon anyway. Um, so yeah, I. can't speak to what the DO is going to. do specifically within that vertical. I. can only tell you that after going to. Congress multiple times and making this. case to multiple administrations, you. can still find an open letter from me.

online to President Obama in 2009, right after I launched this thing. I I've offered every administration. for what it's worth. I just just so you. know, we're doing this and it's working. Should you ever get to the point where. you're on the same page, let me know. I. consider myself a patriot. I don't care. who's in office. I want to help. >> Mhm. >> So, I wrote this letter.

to the president. Do you remember 3. million shuffle ready jobs? Do you. remember that headline? >> No. >> All right. So in 2009, that was the. pitch. There was a big infrastructure. pitch and President Obama had pledged to. create 3 million shovelready jobs. And I wrote him a letter that you can. find today. And I just said, "Look, man, I'm rooting for you. I love it.". Remember, Dirty Jobs is killing it at. this point. And I'm I'm out there and.

I'm saying. I'm not an expert, but from what I've. seen and I have had a front row seat for. a while to a lot of this, I don't think. you can I think you're going to have an. easier time filling these positions if. you're talking to a country who feels. enthused about picking up a shovel, right? And if if you're assuming that. shovel ready jobs are just going to be. filled because you create them, I I'm afraid you're going to have a hard.

road. Right? So I that's my message. A year. ago, I was at a uh an energy conference. in Pittsburgh held by convened by Dave. McCormack, who I know, you know, Senator. McCormack does this, right? All the cats. are there, man. 35 CEOs, the president of the United States. They're all there. I'm on a panel with. uh Howard Lutnik, secretary of the hell. am I doing on a panel with this guy? I.

don't But that's what I meant. They I I. get invited to these things now. So, I'm. sitting in the room with the CEOs and. the president of the United States and. they're talking about the commitment to. Pennsylvania that needs to happen to. usher in this giant infrastructure. buildout that's absolutely positively. coming. I'm in the room, Sean, when the. CEOs pledge $94 billion.

to Pennsylvania alone to get this thing. going. Right. And when it's my turn to. talk, [laughter and snorts] I say, "Uh, well, look, I'm u I'm rooting for you, Mr. President. I am. I'm always rooting for. you." and this reshoring, this. reindustrialization. that's on everybody's mind. Um, this.

building things in this country again, knives, whiskey, podcast, whatever. Right. I'm for it. I am all for it. But. the 2 million jobs you're talking about. creating in the manufacturing sector, I. got to I got to ask you, what about the. 480,000. open positions in manufacturing right. now? [gasps]. If we can't fill those,

if we can't fill those, how you going to. fill these? So, it's a math problem, which is weird. because I'm not a math guy, but that's. that's been my question to every CEO. I've met in the last 20 years and every. elected official who has called me up. and put their arm around me and said, "Hey, it's great to meet somebody who. thinks like you. We can work together.". Great. But when the when the chili meets.

the cheese, what do you like what are. you guys going to do about the fact that. the people aren't they weren't lining up. for 3 million shovelready jobs 18 years. ago and they're not lining up for these. jobs now? So what are you going to do to. get this generation's attention? How are. you going to meet them where they are? This is the first time somebody answered. me. What did they say? They said, "You. tell us.

what can we do to help?" And I said, 'Well, modesty aside, um, I do want to be a part of it. I do. want to help deliver it, but I can't. We. have to hear from the people doing the. work. We have to hear from Michael Gam. We have to hear real world success. stories. People crushing it and loving.

what they're doing. I said, "That's the. good news. You've got plenty of people. I mean, you can find them in the primes. You can go to Rathon. You can go to. Lockheed, but you can also go to. Palunteer and you can go to Anderil and. you can go to Mach and you can go to. Hadrien and you can go to Apex and so. forth and so on.". So, you know, there ought to be a show. like Dirty Jobs that focuses on this. We. can do that. There ought to be a. campaign, like there ought to be a big.

media campaign that constantly taps the. country on the shoulder and says, "Get a. load of him. Get a load." Here's another. one. They're killing it, right? You you. you just have to drip drip drip. You got. to do it. And you know, it's easy cuz. people hear me say that and they're. like, "Oh, so it's PR. You're saying we. need better PR.". Yeah. Yeah, you do. What they need to do. is set an example.

I just feel like nobody does that. anymore. They don't Nobody sets the. example of what they want everybody else. to become or what they want them to be. >> You're right. >> Just tell them. >> Well, you're right because it's easy. because everybody's got a podcast. I'll. just tell you, you know, tune in and. I'll tell you what I think today and. then tomorrow I'll tell you something. else. And here's another guy. You know. what he thinks? Go ahead, tell him. That's what I meant earlier. This fire. hose of people telling me things, >> you know, whether it's a journalist or a. podcaster or an author or a.

documentarian or or or me. I'm not I'm. part of the problem, but what you're. saying I I completely agree. >> I don't think you're part of the. problem, Mike. You're do you're there's. a you're doing an actionable. You're. not, you know, you're talking about. these politicians. and these CEOs of big companies that. you've been talking to for the past 20, what, 20 years, 18 years, and they're. just doing this. [snorts] over and over again. They just. do this. >> Yeah. And then you come along and you.

start a foundation and I don't know how. many people you're pumping through trade. schools or or or um helping get through. uh helping financially get through trade. schools schools. But it's got to be a. lot. 10 million a year. That's a big. number. >> That's trade schools a two-year program. I mean it's got to be you're doing. something. So you're not part of the. problem. You're you're you're part. you're part of the solution. >> That's nice of you to say. Thanks. I. didn't I didn't.

There's not very many people like that. >> I'm part of the problem that like you. flick on the TV, you scroll around, you. hit your news feed, and there's there's. Micro mouthing off about something. >> or maybe I'm just telling a funny, whatever it like I'm in the ecosystem. I'm part of the noise. That's what I I'm. not part of the problem. But it's a. noisy solution and everybody's out. there, man. It's It's Isn't it amazing? Like I think of how many guests have I.

had on my podcast who have their own. podcasts. That's interesting. I got a podcast. I'm on your podcast. No, you got to come on my podcast. It'd. be rude not to do that, right? So, you. know you got to come to You know you got. to do that. You know I'm going to hit. you up to do that. Pretty soon, you. know, everybody's going to have a. podcast. Like the entire audience is. going to be the influencers. Like what happens if Andy Warhol was. really right? What if this is. everybody's five or 15 minutes of fame?

What if the what if the audience becomes. the the creators in in total? Do you. think that'll happen? Statistically, no. It can't. But I'll. tell you what has happened, man. People. have uh people have forgotten. I don't think you have you're. since we're complimenting each other. Um, who do you work for?

>> Me. All right. Anybody else? >> My family. My team. >> Next. Keep going. >> My audience. >> There it is. There it is. Sponsors in there anywhere? >> I mean, I guess technically I work for. them. Sure. But I don't. I have to be me. I cannot [ __ ] be an.

inauthentic me. I cannot be controlled. I can't I just I can't. And those those. conversations happen. We just lost a sponsor from the Med and. Kelly episode. >> Bye-bye. >> Yep. See you later. We don't like what. you said about MAGA. >> Okay, great. And then they want to know, you know, I'm like, then they want to know that. I'm not going to tell anybody that. they're dropping me. >> How'd that work out? >> I said, "I'm sorry. I'm not going.

You've already fired me. And if you. don't [ __ ] like who I am, then don't. [ __ ] don't advertise on my show. I. don't give a [ __ ]. >> There only 5 million other podcasts. >> Like, go to them. >> We're down to 5 million now, right?" And. so, no, I'm never if if anybody comes in. and tries to create a narrative or or. take me away from being who I truly am, then this that's it doesn't work. >> Okay. So, >> then you are the noise.

>> Well, we're all the noise, but. you know, noise is different than sound. Like, you can make a joyful noise. You. know, you can you can be a symphony or. you can be screeching. You can you could. be the woman at the end of the last. election where was just screaming at the. sky in frustration. You know, there all. of it together is just a cacophony. It's. a it's just a my only point is it's. super super noisy out there. Why is your.

podcast near the top of the food chain? It's because your audience believes you. and it's because you know who you are. and they don't think you're faking it. And I don't think you are either, but. it's a great answer. Who do you work. for? Me, my family, my team, my. audience. Okay, that's great. Um, the answer would be different if you ask. different people. People will put the.

audience in in different places. Uh, I'm. a little different. I I I don't think. I'm as ethically. sound as you are. I'm I'm pretty good, but like I put the audience at the top. Um. because. because if they go away, obviously the. sponsors go away. If they go away, my. guests go away. If they go away, there's. just I'm just a guy sitting alone. talking to himself, you know? And so I.

think that um the audiences like people. people forget. like just how important it is when. you're in a on a stage especially, you know, to to look out and and see. those people. like you you completely. work for them and they're and they're. they're so special and it's so easy to.

forget. I I shouldn't tell this story. I'll try and do it without getting. myself in trouble, but I went to an. event years ago, a kind of a. kind of a I guess elite quiet. event that. I was glad to attend. And at the event, a play was performed. and it was really good. like it was an.

original work and there was singing and. there was acting and there was a story. and there was a parapetia. and there was an orchestra. It was amazing. And the audience, maybe 400 people. And at the end of the performance, the authors took the score.

and the script. and threw it in a bonfire. Gone. Never to be performed again. Interesting. fascinating. And my first thought was, man, that's just so indulgent. Like, why. would Mozart throw away Reququum? You do. it once. Why would like why would what. just happened? And then later I. realized, wow, what just happened was.

the producers and the talent in this. production. um gave 400 people a memory that no one. else has. And they turned those 400 people into uh. apostles of a kind, evangelists for that. moment, that night that they had. together where something creatively cool.

happened and it was transferred to the. people who sat there. waiting and and watching and wanting to. be entertained or challenged or. whatever, you know. And um that. filled me with really a feeling I I had. never had before. And um you know, if. you think about all of the performances. that predated.

mass media as we understand it, we're. like nothing was recorded, nothing was. ever filmed. it the whole thing that production of. Edipus we were talking about before took. place in in Greece. in front of an audience and that was it. right until the next performance. So you. know the audience used to be such a like. a vitally integral part they were the.

witnesses. to the thing. They're the witnesses to. this thing. There's millions of them. now. And then we'll be cut up in clips. and it'll go out and But see, that's. that's such a different ecosystem. >> Mhm. >> You know, I think of why I mean like. like how do comedians get great today? Well, the same way they always got. great, they they suck and then they suck. less and then they get in front of more. audiences until they suck less and then.

the audiences grow usually in proportion. to their ability to not suck and then. eventually they don't suck, then they're. good and then the audience is and so. forth and so on. Like that's how you get. better. You get better in front of an. audience and when you're just starting. the audience is is small. I think about. Lenny Bruce, you know, and some of the. great comedians who, you know, bombed. horribly and early on in a little club.

in Greenwich or someplace, right? Big. deal. You had a bad night. Not today. Today, everybody is sitting there. documenting you on your first night out. all the time. 14 cameras in here, dude. 14 cameras. So, look, I say the wrong thing on a podcast. like this, they'll be hell to pay. You say the. wrong thing, you lose a sponsor.

Okay, that's cool. We're all grown-ups. You know, the stakes are they're. actually consequences. to mouththing off. They're consequences, and those those are great. But I just. think about the consequentiality of the. audience and I think about how that's. changed now. And I just two nights ago I. was on stage at a big venue and I'm. looking out at the crowd and I swear to. God, dude, 90% of them were looking at. me on the screen on their phone.

There's this giant filter. between the audience. and the performer slash influencer, whatever it is. And for time and memoriam, it wasn't. there. And now it is. And I reckon a lot of what we're we're. grappling with all the time in every. way, shape, or form.

is a version of that. We're We're trying. to navigate this weird filter that we've. put between oursel and everything that's. real. >> Makes sense. >> This is heavy, dude. It is heavy. I. wasn't expecting it to. >> I was going to tell some poo stories. from dirty jobs. Get some artificial. insemination stuff. I've talked about Row Nutrition's. liposomaal NAD+ before and it's one of.

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60-day money back guarantee and get 20%. off with code SRS at. rowutrition.com/disount/srs. Again, that's code SRS for 20% off at. ronutrition.com/disountsrs. I don't know. You know, it's it's not. that um. I mean I I care deeply about my. audience, but I don't I just I just I. can't let them dictate.

who I talk to and what I talk about. You. know, I just wouldn't, you know, something that uh I interviewed Jim. Kabiesel once and we were talking about. money. >> [clears throat]. >> I brought this up up a couple times on. the shelf and he was talking about cars. and motorcycles and all the fancy [ __ ]. that he's bought and. you know it was at a time where I was. kind of just starting to make a little. bit of money and um way more than I'd. ever made before and we we kind of had.

this discussion and. it was I was kind of picking his brain. I was wanting some advice and and he he. had mentioned. something along the lines. He said, you. know, you just have to think of it as. it could be taken away by God at any. moment in time and you can enjoy it. And. that's what we were talking about. We. were talking about the Bible. And. there's a there's a verse in there that. says uh something about a rich man will,

you know, has a something about. >> through the eye of the needle. >> There it is. >> Yeah. and uh he he had he had said, you. know, I just I don't get attached to my. [ __ ] and. I'm ready and willing to give it back at. any moment in time. And that for. whatever reason that just really stuck. with me. And so I kind of like consider. this. it's not mine. I. >> Oh, every day I wake up and I look I.

look around and I'm like I this can't be. [ __ ] real. I have no college. education. I only have six years in the. SEAL teams, [sighs]. which is. a very unimpressive career as a SEAL and. um in that community and and this should. have never happened, you know. It just. should have never happened. I have no. bonus business. Yeah, exactly. >> You're the samurai. >> and it'll take it'll be taken away at. some point in time. And if that happens,

it was a good run. I was true to myself. I was true to my family and so. fatalistic at this point in your life, man. It's so interesting. You are such. an introspective cat. By the way, you. know, the eye of the needle in that. scripture is not the eye of a sewing. needle. It's the. it's the the door through which people. can pass into a fortress. >> Okay? It's it's like you can pass.

through the eye of the needle if you're. a rich man. Um this is difficult for. other reasons that have nothing to do. with geometry. It's not like you can't. force yourself, you know, through this. tiny aperture. The whole metaphor was. lost in the language, which happens a. lot, you know, I think it happens in the. Bible, it happens in the constitution, happens all over the place. languages. >> Mhm. [clears throat].

>> Always changing. But yeah, it's um it's not a it's not a. parapetia, but man, this a this is a. weird thing to wish on anyone, but uh you ever lose you ever lose. everything? >> Oh, yeah. >> Like flat everything. Not everything of. course, but like financially your whole. your safety net if you ever had one.

>> Yes. I mean, when I left when I quit. contracting for CIA, I had I had nothing. going for me. Uh. >> but you quit. >> I quit. >> You didn't have to. Well, that's not exactly what happened, but um um there was some [ __ ] going on. that I did not like, and. I knew nobody would stand up to it. It.

had to be me. And I was going on eight. or nine years at that point. And I kind. of saw the writing on the wall. I was. single, late 30s, mid30s. And um. I I just I just I was like. this is a lonely life, man. Just. redeploying to [ __ ] war zones over. and over and over and over again. And. this just is.

I've done everything I wanted to do here. and the things that I haven't done. I've. been hanging out over here for 14. [ __ ] years. >> Yeah. >> It probably isn't going to happen. And. um and there were some really. unethical things that were happening uh. from a from a leader and nobody else. wanted to. sound the alarm. It was dangerous. It. was going to get guys killed. And so I. kind of made a stand and. told them if they didn't get rid of. them, then I would uh hit the media.

knowing that I would never be invited to. go back. And uh cuz they never really. fire you. They just you don't get the. invite to go back. and uh and that's. what happened. >> So, this sponsor of yours clearly didn't. know who they were dealing with. [laughter]. >> I don't think they really gave a [ __ ]. but that guy did never did redeploy. And. um those guys never had to work with. that [ __ ] [ __ ] ever again. >> Good. >> And I moved on and reinvented and.

everything wound up being just fine. But. I think that all comes down to a work. ethic. >> Well, I think it comes down to a code. You have a code. You know, I know people. with the code that don't work hard and I. know people who work hard that got no. code. Um, the code's important and you pulled. the pin on that scenario yourself and. you walked away from it at obvious cost. to you, but you did it because your code.

demanded it, right? >> Mhm. >> Yeah. That's um I file that under. character, you know, not not work ethic. It's. adjacent, you know, the the willingness to do a. hard thing at a difficult moment. That's. that's character, you know. Uh but. when you lose everything.

as a result, not as a result of pulling. the pin yourself, you know, I think. that's what Cavisel was maybe talking. about, you know, um sort of an act of. God or just an unfortunate circumstance. where you you're out of control. The. decisions is not yours. >> Mhm. somebody else made a decision and. you look down and your safety net's. gone, you know, um that.

that will either, you know, break you or. send you in another direction or. reinforce whatever character you have. And uh you know, it's it's another thing. that I I'm interested in in people when. I when I talk to them. It's like would. did that ever happen to you? Was there a. moment really when the rug got pulled. out and and what' you do? Did it, you know, iron sharpens iron and.

all that, you know, did it temper you? Did it break you? Did it make you a. better version of yourself? It almost broke me. I mean, I had a I. had a suicide attempt in there. Um, but. looking back, I sure as hell wouldn't. change any of it. is much more impactful. and much more enjoyable. uh than anything I ever did for CIA or. the SEAL teams.

>> What are we going to do about PTSD? >> Well, actually I just invested in a company. Um, this is more about the suicide epidemic, but I invested in this company called. Envy, and it's uh founded by a guy named. Johnny Wilson, who's also a former SEAL. Uh, left SEAL teams, got into big tech, started this company called Envy, and it. is you all these [clears throat].

wearables that everybody's wearing to. track their health. you you get the what API keys that go. into that and then basically what it. does is it it kind of tracks your. health. But what it will do is so let's. say me and you were I don't know sniper. buddies back in the day and we got two. other guys that were sniper buddies and. we we we get this thing and and and they. package it up to where we're kind of. accountable to each other. And so when. you see the biomarkers of depression.

start to kick in, you know, your sleep. starts getting [ __ ] up, your diet. starts changing, blood pressurees up, all of all of these kind of things. collectively together, it will kind of. notify. your team, hey, Mike's not sleeping. good. His blood pressure is elevated. His heart rate's a little elevated. You. know, all these things. Maybe maybe call. him, check up on him, just see how he's. doing. you know what I mean? And so,

and it's a lot more advanced than that, but but uh that's kind of the gist of. it. >> And you know, I've tried. that's one thing that we've done on this. show is try to find all these different. avenues to find to get out of that. You. know, when when you ask how I started it. or maybe I just told you, you know, documenting history, elevating the. veteran, talking about the struggles. This is what I'm talking about. Mhm. >> You know, psychedelics. A lot of guys. have found a uh including myself. That's.

when I quit drinking. Haven't had one in. four years. >> I gain. >> Yep. I gain. >> Have you talked to Rick Perry? >> No. >> You should, man. >> But I'm aware of the the thing, the. push. >> Yep. >> And uh I helped the Tennessee chapter uh. get pushed through here in Tennessee. actually just a couple of weeks ago and. it passed. >> Yeah. And um so I've been on this kick. for a pretty long about four years. And. um that's been very promising. But I. think the Envy wearable is kind of the.

the the. the new thing that I think brings the. most hope because it's an actual alert. like, "Hey, the signs of depression are. kicking in. Check on your buddy.". >> Yeah. I did a show uh for Facebook a few. years ago called Returning the Favor and. it I probably did eight eight or nine. segments on non-traditional approaches. for suicide prevention with vets in. particular. And it's just so interesting.

like so so many of them really just came. down to. uh you just got to get out of your head. You got to dive into something. Um like. there was this thing motorcycle um a. combat bike saver it was called up in. Indianapolis guy named Jason Zadaman. just started didn't know anything about. motorcycles but he was struggling you. know and he started rehabbing these old. bikes and then his his buddies from his. unit started and.

chapters all over the place now you know. it had a huge impact these guys getting. together working on something that was. so tactile. Um, there's a guy named. Steve Hots. God, you would love him. He's got a forge down in Fredericksburg. He lost an eye and got his back all. jacked up in a in a jump that went wrong. and pulled out an old forge and started. started making knives actually in his.

garage and kind of saved him. And then. he reached out to some other guys who. were struggling. This whole forge thing. Steve built, he's he's got over. 15 20,000 people have come through it. Zero suicides. >> Wow. >> It's amazing stories of you know I mean. it it just feels like getting. forgive me I don't mean it like getting. the band back together but it's like.

getting the band of brothers back. together getting the you know like that. sensibility that exists so obviously in. the military. It exists in work too, you. know. It exists. I saw it on Dirty Jobs. Everywhere. And and getting people. reconnected to that. >> is something I've always been interested. in. >> Yeah. I think that that's that's how. many people thousands. >> That's incredible. >> Thousands. I'll get you a link. It's uh. what is it? Blue Forge. Black Forge. I'll get it. It's in Fredericksburg.

Steve Hot. You can Google the episode. It's one of the best success stories. I've seen. I I think one of the biggest. the one of the biggest issues maybe even. bigger than the war trauma uh itself is. the loss of identity. I mean you you. especially in in uh where I come from. you know like like for example when I. left the agency I mean joined the joined. the Navy. really joined at 17 years old left at 18. basically my adult uh my young adult I.

was raised in the [ __ ] SEAL teams. took about a year off and then uh hated. civilian life and went back to contract. for CIA and did that for eight or nine. years and um you. when it was gone. I mean, you know, that. has a. people want to hear about that [ __ ]. They want to know. They want what's it. like? It's cool. It's got a wow factor. It's got a cool factor. When that goes. away, it's painful. Just like what you were.

saying, if your audience goes away, well, now you're just some guy [ __ ]. sitting there. Some days I think that's. the the best outcome. I would love to be. just some guy sitting there uh and not. [laughter]. have to worry about all this. I think. that would be a great uh anyways, but. what I'm getting at is you lose that. identity and you you you tie yourself to. it. And you know what a lot of guys. can't get is you know being a SEAL, being a CIA contractor or operating at.

that level that that doesn't [ __ ]. define who you are. That's just some. [ __ ] that you did for a season of your. life. >> Mhm. >> You know, and but because it's it's it's. got the mystique to it. It's got what. everybody everybody wants to know. They. want to hear the stories. What's it. like? How do you get in there? You know, when that goes away, you you you you. feel worthless. Why does it have the. mystique? >> Because it's really [ __ ] hard to get. in.

>> And why. do people know it's really hard to get. in? >> Because there's not very many of us. And. why do people know there not many of. you? >> I don't know. Probably because of. entertainment and the Discovery Channel. >> That's it, dude. That's it. 14 cameras. or one or one smartass filming himself. People know about Buds. They know about.

seals. They know about the rangers. They think they know about AI because. they saw The Matrix. They think they know how it's going to. end because they saw the Terminator. They think they understand war cuz they. saw Saving Private Ryan. They think they know what it is to weld. because they saw welding video. You. know, we everything it is everything.

that we think we know, we we gather. because we look around and we hear. things and maybe we're curious and we. take a look and then we get a version of. whatever it is we think, right? I mean, you probably saw all the war movies. growing up. >> and then you go into the thing, and I'm. just guessing, but some things must have. surprised you. Some things maybe. disappointed you. Maybe some things felt.

real and were confirmed. I don't know. But I do know that the mystique that. you're talking about was cultivated. uh not by the actual people doing the. work. It was it was cultivated by the. people who documented the stories and. then told them the way they wanted to. tell them. And maybe it's John Wayne and. the Green Beretss or or maybe it's. Apocalypse Now or maybe we're all.

walking around with this incredible. assumption. about an endless number of topics. including war, including mental health, um including. the sexual habits of our neighbors, right? I mean, like we all think. we can't help it. our opinions are all. just an amalgam of all of these. different. inputs.

And so, you know, the closer we get to. the truth of the thing, ultimately the. more we're going to be disappointed or. surprised or humbled. because. most of why we think we know about a. thing is based on somebody else's. experience of it, version of it. Have you ever lost at all? >> Not ever hit ground zero. >> financially. Yeah. Oh yeah, man. My my. my whole.

So. I. told you I impersonated a host for years. and I did and I was I was good enough at. it. I wanted to be in entertainment. Um, but I was kind of riskadverse. I didn't. want to go to Hollywood the way my. buddies had or to New York. I didn't I. stayed in Baltimore and I got a local.

show on the air and I saved my money and. I started to invest my money and then I. started to like narrate shows for the. National Geographic, you know, like if. there was a wilderbeast trying to get. across the vast reaches of the Baron. Serengeti. I'm telling you about it, right? I got a. lot of work, a lot of freelance work in. entertainment. I uh I sang in the opera. Crazy six, seven years of my life in. Baltimore. I I sold things in the middle.

of the night on the QVC cable shopping. channel for for years. Like um I did. infomercials, I did plays, I did pilots. for talk. I did all these crazy jobs in. in entertainment. And along the way when. I was young, I met um. let's call this person a uh a trusted. financial advisor who became a a close. friend and I um I invested my money with.

this with this person who who worked for. a firm that you know and um this person. rose to the top of the profession. and my portfolio rose with it and when. there were opportunities to invest in in. private ventures that this person was. also involved in uh the opportunities. were presented to me and by this point I.

had complete faith in this person and so. I always said yes and it's an old story. this person left the big blue chip firm. and. hung out a shingle of their own and. started a company and my money went with. it along with a lot of other money from. a lot of other people. Blah blah blah. Complete fraud. Bad actor.

[snorts]. And. so the interesting thing for me was that. at that point I was maybe 37. Uh. and and looking back honestly I was um I. was like delightfully arrogant about my. situation. I had saved. a little more than a million dollars. freelancing in the entertainment.

business and investing with a trusted. financial adviser. And uh at the time I was in New York. like just buming around taking the jobs. I wanted. And I felt so great man cuz I. I I had this safety net. I I wasn't. married. I don't have kids. I work when. I want. I take my retirement early and. in installments.

I'm traveling around the world. I had a. job with American Airlines making. entertainment for them on all their. planes on any flight longer than three. hours. Right. >> Right on, >> dude. I had a thing like they they. called it a D1. It was basically a plus one. It was a. must fly for me and my cameraman. Right. This is before the airlines realized how. valuable that space was and that if. you're a business traveler, you're. basically.

you're trapped on a plane. There's. nothing to look at out the window at the. back of the head of the guy in front of. you or at the screen. And there was no. they just put garbage up there. So they. hired me to make a show about any. destination that American Airlines. served, right? So we would fly around the world, me and a cameraman and a small crew, and. we'd film these shows. And like that was. just one of the hundreds of gigs that I. had. But the crazy thing is is that that. pass was good all the time. And so.

when that gig went away, Seinfeld, they. they replaced my show with reruns of. Seinfeld, right? And then there was a. big upheaval at American Airlines and a. big a big changeover. And one day I went. into the airport. I had this pass. Uh, I. had even thought about it, you know, and. I was flying down to San Diego from. Seattle. and uh, I was just going to turn it in, but I handed to the gate agent and she. did what she always like they take it,

they open it, they look at, oh, okay. then. And then they pick up the phone. and they go, "Mhm. Mhm. Great." So, it's. a must. They call them mfers. Must flies. plus one. So, like seat 4A. Okay. Like. they'll take somebody out of first class. to put you on if you have this pass. you. must fly. Wow. And uh but the but the deal's over, so. whatever. It was a great perk and now. it's gone. Except she says,

"Go right on board.". Long story short, like for another year. and a half, this thing was active. They. never took it back. And so I could fly. anywhere in the country that I that I. wanted to for free plus one. That was a. great date. >> [laughter]. >> So, I'm just So, this is who I am at 37. I can fly anywhere I want. I'm. freelancing. I don't care about the work. I'm doing at all. I'm doing. infomercials. I'm narrating shows. I'm.

not ashamed of it. I just don't really. care, you know? And in between it all, I'm just kind of. kicking around and living a really. cushy, comfortable, freelancy life with. a million dollars. or more sitting there like the safety. net, you know. [snorts]. And then literally one morning uh I. learned about it in the headlines. It.

was gone. All of it. freaking gone, man. So, boohoo, big deal. Super interesting, though. Like, what do you do if you're. like you're on the high wire and you're. comfortable up there? You've been up. there a long time and you're walking. along and you're on the high wire and. every time you look down, yeah, you. know, there's a net there, but you don't. fall. You've never fallen before. So, what's the big deal that all of a.

sudden the net's gone? Well, it is a big deal, dude. It's a big deal except. only if you fall. And so that's the moment for me that I. was, you know, asking you about it. It. it it's not nearly as character-driven. or or ethically situated. I didn't I. didn't leave because of some crisis of. conscience. I didn't I didn't do that. I.

just I just got ripped off because I I. bet on the wrong horse and I had to. start over. So that's clarifying, you know, and it doesn't matter how big. your safety net is or small. It it's. instructive to lose everything. >> Mhm. >> Because. it forces you to reframe stuff. And. it didn't happen right away. I kept.

doing I kept freelancing. I stayed it. like in my lane. I was much more. circumspect about, you know, spending. money, but I never spent much anyway. I. didn't own anything. I'm not I'm not a. collector. Like I I didn't have. anything. I had clothing deals, Sean, with like four different companies back. then because I was working on four. different shows. I had the airline show. I had this thing called New York. Expeditions that was on PBS. I had a. game show with Dick Clark. >> [gasps]. >> I had all these different shows. I had.

all these different clothing contracts. I didn't need anything. I didn't have. any clo I did I didn't own a thing. I. had um I had arrangements with uh. hotels, too. I'm living in hotels out of. my backpack. I got a million dollars in. the bank. I got not one single. commitment. And I'm pretty good at. booking work because I did three years. at QVC in the middle of the night. And. I'm a good audition and I can sell. anything. It I had my toolbox put. together, right? I was It was all.

It was so cozy, man. And then it'sing. gone. And uh yeah, that was that was the end. of a chapter for me. And the next. chapter started with buildback. and stop working on projects that you. don't care about. And that didn't happen until Dirty Jobs. I mean, I think this is an important. discussion because there's going to be a.

lot of people that lose their jobs and. that are going to have to reinvent here. within the next couple of years. >> Yep. >> 100%. [snorts]. And. a lot of people are going to look down. and the safety net's going to be gone. >> Mhm. >> There was this uh. there was this moment in Dirty Jobs that. you would appreciate that rhymes with. this pretty good. There was an episode. on the Meno Bridge. Um,

I was invited to work with the. maintenance crew on the Mighty Mack. This is a bridge up in Michigan. Connects the upper and lower peninsula, right? It's long. It's way longer than. It's like 5 miles long. It's one of the. longest suspension bridges in the. country. All right, fact check me on. that. It might be too. I know it's a lot. longer than the Golden Gate, you know. It's it's it's long and it's green, right? It's got to be painted. constantly. It never stops. The minute. you're done painting it, it's time to.

start painting it again, right? So, there's endless jobs to do on this. bridge. Like, you go into the towers and. you go down below the water into these. like these steel coffins, these like. honeycombs, and they all have to be. scraped out with the corrosion and and. painted. Re everything gets painted. It's it's just it's mind-boggling work, but it's municipal work. It's government. work. So, I'm I'm always leerary of. those jobs because I know I'm not going.

to get permission uh to do what I wanted. to do on dirty jobs, which was to tell. the truth as best I could, like really. do the things the actual workers do. But. it was a good shoot. And as at the end. of the day, as a joke on camera, I'm. talking to the guy I've been working. with all day and he said, "Well, did you. get everything you need?" I've said, "Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's great, but. you know what I'd love to do? I'd love. to walk across that girder there and get. on that suspension cable and and and.

walk up that cable and change a few. light bulbs along the way." Right. [snorts] now, I say this because there's. no freaking way they're going to let me. do that. Not on camera. No way. Know. how. Can't happen. Guy says, "Okay.". [laughter]. So, you know, I got a helicopter with me. with a. Westcam unit on it, right? So, it's a I. got a camera and a helicopter. This is. the shot of shots, right? This is going.

to go into the This is going to win an. Emmy or at least get nominated for one. And it did. This shot is crazy. I I get. over there. I got a bag full of light. bulbs and I got my safety rig on and I. got two clips because the stansions that. run up alongside that cable like you. want to be tied off two ways. You're 600. ft in the air. You look down from this. thing, Sean. Like freigherss look like. the little toy boats and battleship. I. mean, you're up in the air.

>> and you're focused, man. You are highly. focused on what you're doing because. falling would be very bad, right? And so. I got a guy like 30 feet behind me and. we're walking up together and as you. walk up, you know, we get to a light. bulb, pause, change it, sit down, helicopter gets it, shot. We're getting. everything we need for the show. It's. going great. I get up toward the top, like the very top. And um you know as. you go when you hit these stansions like.

so you're on this cable and you're. walking and you have to uncip. to get past the rail and then clip on. again. And then when you do that you. come over here and then you do that one. So you're never untethered. >> cuz that would be crazy. And I get up to. the top and as I'm going. like I'm sure like anything else that. starts out high anxiety, you do it, you. do it, you do it, you get used to it, you get a little more comfortable, you. start to move a little faster, you get.

confident, right? So now I'm loving the. shot. I'm so I'm real comfortable. I got. a earpiece in. So I'm communicating with. the pilot and now we're getting the. shots that are going to win the Emmy. like he's coming up under the bridge, you know, crabbing straight up, shooting. me like this. I'm sitting down, leaning. over like the these lanterns, right? So, you've got a I got a light bulb in my. teeth. I'm leaned over. I undo it. I.

take out the old bulb. I put it in. there. I take this one out and I'm. screwing it in. Right. I'm doing this. I'm doing that. And now he's flying back. and he's coming in and I'm I'm changing. my position. We're getting all the. angles just right. All the angles. >> [snorts]. >> Now, I don't know how this happened. In. the confusion of the moments and the. back and forth or whatever, I unclipped. and didn't I I just didn't clip it back. in. The thing's just hanging by my side. And the other one is clipped to the.

wrong thing. Oh [ __ ]. >> Um, so if I fall, I mean, that's it's. lights out. It's 620 ft straight down. Now, I got one arm wrapped around this. thing and I'm I'm doing the thing. And. when I looked and I saw that I had not. clipped myself in properly, like if you. listen if you find the clip on the. internet and listen carefully, you can. hear the sound of my sphincter slamming. shut, right? [laughter].

It's like absolute abject. Like. that's how it felt years before when I. lost everything. I looked down and it. the the net wasn't where I thought it. was. Same thing, same feeling. I looked. over and it's like, ah, [ __ ] man. I. thought I was tied off. I'm not. I'm not. going to fall. But if I did, um,

you're so right. That feeling and that. moment in some relative sense is going. to be experienced by millions of. Americans this year. >> Yep. >> They're going to look down and they're. going to realize they're not tied off. and they're going to look down and. they're not going to see the net that. was always there. So, you know, the book that I can't get. around to finishing is is Lessons from.

the Dirt, and it's hundreds of stories. You know, for me, man, if I'm being. honest, this is that's kind of where. everything actually started. It was. chapter 2. My old business model. was just wrong for me. It was right for. a long time and it worked for a long. time. There was nothing broken about it. Got. my nest egg, got my safety net, I got my. job, I got my toolbox, I got my ticket.

to ride, I can fly for free. I It's It's. like all that was great. And um then it. just was gone. and and and now I'm. working on a show that's dedicated to my. granddad. about work and real people that's. totally unscripted that doesn't require. me to do anything that a host used to. do. What it requires me to do is change. a light bulb on a bridge or try. So suddenly. I I'm paid to try things. I'm not paid.

to succeed. Think about that. That's that's a different kind of. freedom. >> Mhm. >> It's a different kind of drama because. you're you're going to be uncomfortable. a lot. You're going to be upside down. You're going to be in a hole. You're. going to be in a mine. You're going to. be cleaning skulls. You're going to be. retrieving golf balls from. alligatorinfested. swamps, right? You're going to be in the. Everglades. The crocodile is going to.

bite you. The shark is going to You're. going to test a shark suit for shark. week. You're going to get bit on purpose. by a shark and shook like a tug toy. You're going to pee in your wets suit in. fear. All these things are going to. happen. But you're going to get paid and. people are going to watch and the show. is going to give you permission to do a. bunch of stuff. It's a totally different. deal, totally different model. Uh, you know, I'm feel super fortunate.

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>> Are you familiar with Polymarket? >> Yeah, they uh and Kishi or what do they. >> that thing? Yeah, the other one. >> Yeah, everybody's betting on everything, right? >> That's right. >> What are we betting on? Poly Market says. there's a 17% chance US unemployment. hits 5% at some point in 2026. Unemployment's sitting at a 4.3% right. now, and traders have put more than. 430,000. into betting on where it peaks this.

year. The crowd gives it about a 1 in6. shot, 17% that the rate climbs to 5% at. some point in 2026. The odds drop off fast from there. Poly. market gives it a 17% chance. unemployment even touches 5% this year. The crowd thinks the job market holds. You've spent your career around the. people who actually do the work. When. you hear 4.3% unemployment, does that. match what you're seeing on the ground?

>> Where'd that come from? Who's asking. these questions? It's a good one. I'm. just curious. This is your question? >> This is us. This is me and my team. >> Oh, I should have known. It says The. Shawn Ryan Show right on the card. [laughter]. All right, with respect to you and your team, here's a better question. Why does anybody give a [ __ ] about the. unemployment number?

>> What is that? My friend Nick Eberstat. is an economist. Where is he? I think he's at the. American Enterprise Institute. He wrote. an amazing book called Men Without Work. It's in 2005. And I used it [clears throat] when I. started the foundation to I wanted to be. able to point to at least one egghehead. with a bunch of the right initials. behind his name to justify some of my.

underlying. beliefs around workforce and Nick was it. well Nick was so right about so many. things that the book was republished uh. during the lockdowns. and he writes eloquently. and um horrifyingly. about these deaths of despair and what's. happening. to men without work.

and the number of men right now who. aren't working. I mentioned it earlier, but it's it's close to 7 million. able-bodied men who don't have work. Are these guys unemployed? I mean, there's 7.5 million open jobs. So Nick argues. that the unemployment statistic. in and of itself.

is an artifact of the Great Depression. along with a couple of other economic. indicators that simply haven't been. updated or or revisited to make sense. for the times in which we live. And I. think he's right, you know, I mean, in a. depression when you had people standing. in line for bread. in cities all over the country, when you. had millions of people out of work and.

Hungary, then you could credibly say that the. cure for this disaster is more jobs. We. need to create more jobs because those. people in those lines, they will take a. job that's available. We don't live in that world anymore. We. have millions of open positions right. now. So, you got 4% people unemployed.

I'm not saying that's not a small number. and I'm not saying that's not a big. deal. I'm just saying who who are they? Mhm. >> How are they unemployed? Are they willing to move somewhere else? Are they able to move somewhere else? Are they able to retrain? Are they. willing to think about retraining? Has. their sphincter slammed shut like. >> many do when you realize, oh no. Are they able to be unemployed and still.

live the life that they're okay living? I don't know. And I don't want to paint. with too broad a brush. But what Nick. would say is there's a much more. important stat. in that rubric that we should be betting. on or talking about. And that would be. the labor force participation.

rate. And I'm out of my lane here a little and. I don't want to say too much of the. wrong thing, but in general, the amount of people who are. participating in the workforce today. is simply not handinand glove with the. amount of opportunities that exist. And so to have a 5% unemployment rate in. 2026, I I what does that mean for those.

who are unemployed? I know right now there nearly 7 million. able-bodied men who are able to live. fairly comfortable lives without. working. And they're not trust fund. babies. Something's going on. Now Nick goes deeper in his book, which. you will dig. I I recommend it. Really, it's it's a it's kind of a wonky. academic look at labor. I like it. Oh,

dude. It's it's it's just so insightful. because of course Nick just doesn't. leave it alone. He's like, "Okay, 7. million people, men mostly not working. What are they doing? What are they doing?". Well, part of the answer is what aren't. they doing? They're not volunteering down at the. local food bank. They're not involved in. their church. They're not involved with. the JC's or the Rotarians or the Boy.

Scouts or the Future Farmers of America. or the 4H Club or the Lions Club. They're not involved in their community. They're not involved in civic. organizations. They're not. they're not doing anything, man, except. one thing. On average, they're spending. in excess of 2,000 hours a year behind a. screen. on their screens swiping left. watching clips.

basking in the warmth of our guests. maybe or looking for love or. pretty deep. well of bottomless pornography over. there too. They're doing these things. and they're all in. They're in it, man. 2,000 hours, you know? They're what is. it 50? They're 280 hours a year in a in. in work weeks.

They're working full-time on their. screens, dude. These guys unemployed. I don't dispute that they're not. working. I just quite don't know what to say. about the cohort without painting with. too broad a brush. But it worries the. hell out of me, man. That the skills gap. is hard to talk about. And the reason. you don't hear a lot of politicians. talking about it. because it's it's [laughter] not a very. flattering indicator.

of who we are as a people. to have so many people sitting out. [clears throat] and so much opportunity. sitting there and because we're in this. crazy hyper politicized. time, we have to make it political, you. know, and people ask me every day, you. know, well, what's up, you know, why do. we have 7 million open jobs? I'm like, well, look, it's complicated.

I'll give you my theories, but they. don't want theories. What they want to. hear is my buddies on the right. want me to say that the reason you've. got all these people unemployed. is because they're lazy. and our system enables their laziness. and we haven't allowed them to hit. bottom. We haven't removed the safety net, so. their sphincters can't slam shut in fear.

and they can't reorient themselves. That's what my friends on the on the. right want me to say and they get pissed. when I don't. My buddies on the left, what they want me to say is, "Well, the. skills gap is a myth, Mike. It's just a. question of economy. If these greedy, rapacious capitalists who control all. the money and pull all the strings. simply paid a better wage, why those. people would run straight in to the.

workforce. That's what they want me to say, and. they get pissed when I don't. Now, personally, I don't think either side is entirely. right because I think both sides really. do paint with a super broad brush. I think there's truth in both, you know, >> but. it's an artifact of the Great. Depression, that unemployment number. And we live in a totally different time.

And we are entering yet another time. And I I don't want to sit here and. pretend to have a crystal ball. I don't. But man, I know that both sides are dug. in and this thing is going to be so. politically fraught. Vocational education and work itself is. going to become. highly political this year. And that's a. shame because at the moment it's still.

one of the few things that I think are. truly. um bipartisan in nature. >> [clears throat]. >> You know, I mean, Jensen Wang keeps. saying, you know, that the the tradesman. is going to be the next millionaire. class of people. Do you What do you. think about that? Do you think there's. truth to that? I know there's truth to. it. He and I are destined to meet. We. haven't yet, but we're I I shared This. is a good little anecdotal sidebar. I.

woke up a couple months ago. I was home, you know, made the coffee. It had just. kicked in. sat down and Davos was going. on and the first thing that popped up is. this conversation between Jensen and um. it was Larry Frink Black Rockck and. that's where this conversation started. That's the first time he he described. the AI technology as a as a five layer. cake and he really laid it out in a way. that's super simple for people to. understand. Um, but that's when he said,

"This all comes down to our ability to. reinvigorate the workforce.". And you know, if you're me, like if. you've been beating that drum for the. last 18 years and you're sitting there. in your bathrobe with your hair sticking. up in the air trying to get caffeinated, you know, what would you do? And what I. did was I backed up the video. I turned. my computer around and I hit play and I. filmed me watching this conversation.

And then I took that video and I put it. on my social channels. and uh within two days like 3 million. people had seen it. And I'm talking to. Black Rockck now and I'm talking to Meta. and I'll get to Nvidia because they're. all they're all here. But millions of. people saw that exchange with me. basically watching it and nodding and. saying out a boy. So to answer your. question, I'm not betting against. Jensen. He's right. And anecdotally, I I.

have a thousand success stories to back. it up. And and people are interested. That's my point. When I shared the video. I made of these two billionaires. talking about the opportunities in the. trades, I I was eager and anxious to see. what the comments were. And to my. earlier point, my buddies on the right see it through. one lens, my buddies on the left see it.

on the other. A lot of people simply. don't believe it's possible. They just. they just don't believe an electrician. can be a millionaire. And I'm I that's. because inertia is powerful. It's really really powerful. But I'll. tell you something else about the. skilled trades, ma'am. They they lead. into more small businesses than more. people will seem capable of realizing. And that path nobody talks about and I.

see it all the time. Did you say they. leave small businesses. >> lead. >> lead. >> to the formation of them? I. [clears throat] I I could literally give. you a list of people who I helped get a. welding. certificate for 6 7 8 10 years ago, whatever. People think in their minds, ah that's. it. He's going to be a welder. So he's. going to weld and that's it. Maybe he'll. TIG weld, maybe he'll MIG weld, maybe. he'll underwater weld. Those guys make.

make a lot of coin, right? whatever it. is, but that's what that's what this. person's going to be. [gasps]. So many times that certification leads. to a plumbing certification or an. electrical certification and there's. like this hierarchy within the trades. and then they buy a van and they hire. their buddies. They got an HVAC buddy, right? And now they got two vans and now. they have a mechanical contracting. company and now you've got a dozen guys, men, women, whatever. and they they. didn't go to college and they're running.

this business, you know, and and like. knives, whiskey, success. It's like there's so. many paths. to that. >> and and the trades don't get their their. due in my opinion. So many of the people. I I've profiled on Dirty Jobs, nobody. believes this, but I'm telling you, >> you watch the show growing up, right? I know for a fact 40 of the people we.

profiled were multi-millionaires. We never talked about it. They certainly. never talked about it. And nobody. assumed that kind of success. because they were normally covered in. mud or blood or [ __ ] or something worse. You just don't you just don't equate. that kind of success with that with that. optics. But it's always been there. It's. always been right in front of us. And. we're just we so screwed up as a society. to make that entire part of our.

workforce and our entire educational. rubric like a vocational consolation. prize. But we did it and we're still. doing it. That's got to stop. So anyway, I know I. didn't answer your question, but. >> Oh, makes a lot of sense. >> Over under on 5%. Yeah, I say we. probably get to it, but I don't think. it's going to have the impact that we. think. >> Does make sense.

How do you think we're going to fill. this shortage? Because I Well, there's. not a lot of I mean, how do you think we're going to fill. this shortage? >> It fits and starts in the. >> meantime. >> Yeah. I mean, look, in in my version of. it, I'm going to do everything I can to. make sure the country knows. what the companies are doing cuz I think. that's a big part, right? I It's not. agov solution,

but we're not going to do it without. some help from the feds. We need policy. to do this, but we can't look to the. government to fix this problem. Those. guys will be out of office in a couple. years. And who's going to do the next. thing? This is a social thing. The. government can't get 6.9 million men. into the workforce, but they can pass. policies that might encourage or. discourage certain kinds of behaviors. I. try and stay away from that simply.

because it is so inherently political. and because it's so destined to to. change. Mhm. >> The corporate side is also fraught. because you know CEOs answer to their. boards and in their own self-interest. they need to address this problem. But. that's also an advantage, right? Like. you can't expect Lowe's to close the. skills gap or Home Depot because they're. they're public companies and they got.

their own fish to fry. But they're doing. it. Lowe's has like a $250 million. investment in training HVAC people. No. kidding. Home Depot, I just I just. interviewed uh Ted, their CEO. He's got. a he's in for hundred million. They're. doing something very similar. It's. called uh Pathway to Pro. I told you. about what Meta is doing, the um America. Workforce Academy. That's 150 million. right out of the gate. And they're just. starting. They're in four states. Black.

Rockck's got a h 100red million in in. North Texas and some and and some other. areas. Jensen's going to do something. No, there's no doubt. Jensen, there's no doubt they have to. They have. to. A $10 trillion infrastructure. buildout is upon us. If [snorts] that doesn't happen, there's. some stuff with China that's going to be. very, very, very, very, very bad. We.

can't lose this stupid race that we're. in. >> Mhm. >> We can't lose it. And I understand that. we don't want to be in it. And I. understand, man, you know, I just I saw. a poll that said that the general. negativity around AI and data centers is. around 75%. 75%. >> Think about that from a from a. communication challenge, from a. marketing standpoint. Like you're in a.

race you can't afford to lose. with a country that's 75% affirmatively. nervous about the fact that we're even. in it. How you going to manage that? That is beyond my pay grade as well. But. I dude I think about this all the time. We. our relationship with fossil fuels.

It's very difficult to to manage and and. and nuance because it's still very. fashionable to hate them even though we. rely upon them entirely and constantly. You know, we're we're we're constantly. at war with the [ __ ] we depend on, the. stuff we need. Timber. There's more. timber in this country than any place on. the planet. Guess who the largest. importer of timber is? >> It's us. Yeah. We can't clear our own.

forest. We we're we're at war with the. abundance that we're standing on because. we're scared to death we're somehow. going to screw it up. Meanwhile, India. and China combined are opening a coal. fired plant every week for the next 30. years. 3 billion people on the planet. have wood. and dung as their primary source of.

energy. Three billion people. get all their energy needs from the. single worst pollutant there is, burning. wood. And [ __ ]. where's their where's their industrial. revolution? How are they going to get to. where we are or or some version of it? They need fossil fuels. They need. natural gas. Personally, I think we're in a race to. nuclear. We need small reactors in every.

town all over the country. There's no. way we're going to get anywhere close to. generating the energy we need. Are you. are you familiar with Isaiah Taylor. Valor Atomics? >> Yeah. Yeah, I know. >> The nuclear mini nuclear reactors. >> Yeah, I just read about it. I'm uh I'm. following a constellation group CEG. They uh they've done everything right. They're not far from where I grew up. They were called Peach Bottom when I was. a kid. And now they're they're going to.

reopen I think three Mile Island. >> Oh, thank God. [snorts]. >> You know how many people died in. ThreeMile Island? >> No. None. Chernobyl. I mean, not to poo poo it, I don't know, 17, 27, something like that. Many in the. explosion, some from thyroid disease years later. The area surrounding Chernobyl is called. the exclusion zone. People are still.

forbidden from going there, except for. the people who never left, who are now. in their 90s. >> Are you serious? and thriving. Google. the exclusion zone Chernobyl and you. will find it to be one of the most. biodiverse. places on the planet. All we have to do. is get all the people out and everything. grew back. There's more wildlife and. natural fauna growing around Chernobyl. than you can believe. And I'm old enough. to remember a week after that accident,

there was a black cloud in the animated. graphics on ABC. Like a third of Europe. was blacked out. They were talking about. how a third of Europe was going to be. uninhabitable for a thousand years. Wrong. Fukushima, not great. People died. Most drowned. That was a very bad deal. Tsunami, you. know, nuclear. But the proportionality, Sean, the the the amount of fear that we.

have around nuclear is so completely. baked into the fact that we used it as a. weapon. and that nuclear weapons still certainly. exist and that would be very bad. But. what are you going to do? You can't. >> Yeah. >> Put the poop back in the goose. And the. need that the world is going to have for. energy is about to enter that part of. the map that says here be dragons way.

more than we have way more than we know. how to get. It has to be nuclear. It has. to be. 100% agree with you on that one. Just. rewind it real quick. Just do you think. it will be I'm just curious because that. we could fill these trade positions like. that. Tell me how. >> they're south of the border. >> Oh. >> Um, >> or undocumented here. Willing to work.

with a crazy [ __ ] work ethic. Listen, I can tell you anecdotally, I think you're right. There is a. cultural thing. I I'm not going to paint. with too broad a brush, but what are the. two examples we gave each other over the. last couple hours? The guy who worked on. Easter Sunday who did what he had to do. and he built the business he has. You know, first kid to come to mind in.

my foundation, they're 3500, but Michael. Gomez set the benchmark pretty high. Um, look, if we can find a path and if we can make. it fair, I we need the workers. But like, it's a very different, you know, documented versus. undocumented. I don't think you can just. shrug the difference away. You know, we.

have to find a way to fill these jobs, but it doesn't mean you just erase the. border. You've got to do a bunch of stuff at the. same time. And I don't envy the people. who are who are in charge of this. And I. don't envy the people who are running. the businesses who are desperate to get. these jobs done. But I know a lot of general contractors. I don't know one who's on time and under. budget. for any project. >> Certainly not in residential anyway. >> And [snorts] when I ask them why, they.

all say the same thing. It's it's labor. So. yeah, there's going to be an immigrant. question slashsolution. There's going to be policy. >> It's it's already happening. Like. >> for sure. >> people are going to [ __ ] and moan about. it and maybe they should, but if you. can't incentivize their own people to. get their ass to work, what the [ __ ]. What are we supposed to do? And and and.

I mean it it it's already happening. For. example, when we were building this. studio out, >> I told you we had a little garage, you. know, in town and I interviewed Tom. Holman. >> And when Tom Holman came to town, [laughter]. >> he sat right here, Tom. >> He sat in the old studio. >> We were so close to having him in this. studio, but we just couldn't get it. done. And then Tom Holman came in town. and not one worker would show up.

[laughter]. to finish this damn studio for about two. weeks. They wouldn't even answer the. phones. I was on my general contractor's. ass like what what's going on? We're. going to be late. D and he's like they. heard Tom Hman's in town with ICE and. they're not even going to answer the. phones. So, I brought that up to Tom on my. shelf. >> That was my going to be my question. What do you say?

>> I can't remember. I It was It was a. joke. I was joking around with him, but. >> Well, you know what? The first thing I. thought of was your situation with your. sponsor, >> right? >> Mhm. >> You say something to Megan Kelly, they. don't like it, they take their marbles. and go home. Okay. I mean, it's. fair dinkham, right? I mean, your. workers are pissed off because Tom Hman. represents something they don't like. They don't come. >> Oh, they didn't want to get deported. They aren't pissed. They don't want to. get deported. >> That's even better.

>> It wasn't just this construction site. that shut down. It was the whole [ __ ]. county shut down for two weeks because. when Tom rolled into Nashville, so did. I. And it and so we I guess kind of what. I'm saying is we got a small glimpse of. what this looks like. M yeah. >> If there is nobody to take, everything. just stops. >> Yeah. >> Dead in its tracks.

It's I I'm having a hard time, you know, aside from a cataclysm, a natural cataclysm, finding a bigger issue. It's. you just can't overstate it. That's. that's a great that's a great example. But look what you said before. How do we. incentivize our own people to work? >> You have to change the culture. >> Well, is there a difference between.

incentivizing. somebody to work or deincentivizing them. not to work? Like what is the unintended. consequence of every single policy in. place. >> that's allowing. millions of people. not to choose not to retrain. I I'm I'm. no authoritarian. I don't want to flick. my fingers and say everyone must work. I. don't want to do that.

That that's not that's not why we're. walking around as a as a free people. But I also don't want to enable people. who choose not to work to not to work. I. don't want to pay for that. >> Why should I? Why should you? Why should. Why should anyone? If if there's an option not to work and. you can afford not to work, I have zero. problem with you choosing not to work. You You don't owe me a duty of of labor.

You don't you don't owe anybody that. But you owe your family and yourself. a livelihood. And if you can provide that without. working, I think it's fair for a. taxpayer to say, "Am I involved in that. decision?". And if you are involved in that. decision, well then, okay, there's a. conversation worth having. Agree with you 100% on that one.

>> It's hard to tell when you agree and. when you don't. [laughter]. 100% agree. When you've got a lot of people. depending on you, your time gets pulled. in every direction. Calls, meetings, emails, decisions, team questions, and. somehow the day disappears. So, I'm. always looking for ways to save time. where I can. Batching calls, knocking. out emails between meetings, delegating. what I can, and removing anything that. does not need to be complicated. We all.

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I don't know. I think some people, you. know, they they they. can't get out of their own head. They. can't see themselves doing a trade. Maybe they they they just don't even. know where to start, you know. But like. like I had mentioned earlier, there. there are people out there that can they. can barely change a [ __ ] light bulb, you know? And I think that. for me, I have little kids. I'm pretty.

handy. I need to pass that down to them. I need to Here's why I'm not persuaded. I I I knew you 60 seconds. before you told me you were an introvert. who didn't like conversation. >> Mhm. [clears throat]. >> And you're running one of the most. consequential podcasts in the world. I don't want to hear that a kid doesn't. know how to change a light bulb. >> and therefore is somehow disqualified.

from the trades. or therefore let off the hook for. finding something he is good at. You lived outside of your comfort zone. You volunteered to get your ass shot off. and shoot back. Then you left the agency on principle. because you have something that. resembles character. And then you went so far outside of your. own comfort zone that you ignored the.

very qualities that you used to. introduce yourself to somebody like me. to do the same thing I do for a living. What is wrong with us? I had a stammer. until I was 15 years old. I could barely. get a sentence out. Now I narrate [ __ ]. You. When people tell me. that they're not doing this thing. because they're uncomfortable doing it,

it's all I can do not to throw up in my. mouth. >> Mhm. >> And look as bored as I feel. >> Mhm. >> Who cares if you're uncomfortable? Who cares if you're scared? Really? I. mean, I do. One human to the next. I. would I would love to help if I can, but. to conclude that and therefore determine. that the only logical way to spend 2,000. hours a year is swiping left or right or.

doing whatever you do and then having a. family that subsidizes that or a. government or a society or a culture. No, we award work ethic scholarships at. Microworks and I get [ __ ] for it every. year. Why work ethic? What is it? What. What do you mean? How do you determine. somebody's work ethic? People ask. I get. this every day. [snorts] I say, "Well, I. I chose work ethic because I didn't. think anybody else was doing it. I know.

lots of scholarships out there for um. academic achievement and artistic. achievement, athletic achievement. Where's the scholarship for the kid who. wakes up early, stays late, and says, "Give me the [ __ ] sandwich. I'll take a. bite. I don't know how to do that. Teach. me. I'm uncomfortable. Let's do it some. more. Where's that woman? Where's that guy?". Right. That's. that's what I that that's who I.

personally want to reward. That's. personally what my foundation does. But. to your point, there are not enough. people out there right now who will. respond to that to fill the openings. that exist. And that's why you're not. wrong to say we have to incentivize our. people. I hate that. But we do. We have. to make a more persuasive case for. people who are who are predisposed to.

being comfortable and unwilling to. venture outside of their comfort zone. Me and you alone, you know, over a beverage, I I would. speak harshly about that. in front of 14 cameras. I'm still. tempted to, but the reason I don't is. because I understand that everybody is. different and that everybody's. background is different and not.

everybody had the mentor I had and not. everybody had the training you had and. not everybody was forged, you know, the. same way. And so I don't I don't want to. be judgmental. I don't want to be overly. harsh, but I don't want to enable. Mhm. >> So, look, that's why I'm in business. with a lot of other companies who are. wrestling with this problem in a. different way. They're they're. presenting the opportunity. differently. And and really, man, think.

about the military, as I'm sure you. often do. Like, that's a recruiting. challenge at base, right? Like, what's. the army say? What's the what's the. single-minded proposition. to join the army? be all you can be, man. It'll you'll be a more well-rounded. person, and when you come out, you'll be. that much better off in the world. That's kind of right. There's an element. of service and sacrifice, but be all you. can be was something that was way above.

that. You know, the Navy, see the world, you know, Coast Guard, go on an. adventure, the the CBS, they they all have a slightly different. uh modality, you know. Except the Marines. Probably not for you. They say. [laughter]. just never mind [clears throat] the. reality. Just think about the rhetoric. Think about the what's being. articulated. >> Mhm.

>> Be all you can be versus. probably not for you. Few proud. They all want they're all anxious to. recruit. They all want the same. enthusiasm. among their their cohorts, but they come. at it from a totally different way. And. I I just think that I don't know if I. have anything to offer to that whole. conversation. It it it's more rhetorical.

than anything. Did you watch Deadliest. Catch ever? Is. >> Oh, yeah. All the time. >> All the time. >> Was that you? No, I'm just kidding. [laughter]. Somebody marked the time code when Shawn. Ryan realized that Mike narrated 23. seasons of Deadliest Catch. Yeah, that. was me. Um. and and the first season, man, I'll. never forget. I was I was worried. because it was so dangerous and the.

portrayals of this job were so harsh and. the greenhorn on the boat was such an. important role and and that season, you. know, six guys died. Greenhorn got got. his finger pulled off. uh boat sank it. and I thought, man, this show is going. to make it really hard for these. captains who I'd become friends with to. recruit. Like, how you going to recruit.

for a job like that? >> Oh, man. I bet recruiting went crazy. after that, >> dude. I [ __ ] I wanted to do it. >> The next season, I'm in. >> the next season. They were on the docks. waiting for a chance to lose money, die, or get their finger ripped out. Now, that's you. All right. That's. that's you can put that out there and a. certain part of the population is like, "Yeah, man. Let's go. Bottom of the.

ninth, bases loaded. Give me the ball. I. want the ball.". Most people don't, right? So, you never. know. But there's look there there are. hundreds of lessons in Dirty Jobs. There. are a lot of lessons in Deadliest Catch, too. And the fact that I had. the fact that I got attached to both. those shows for the last 20 years and. that both are still on the air.

Best thing I ever did was have my. trusted financial adviser rip me off. I love that. I would like to I wasn't I. hate the word incentivize as well and I. wasn't I wasn't making excuses for the. people that can't figure out how to put. in a light bulb. What I was kind of. going towards is there has to be some. sort of a shift in culture. And. I think a lot of people don't they they.

they [clears throat]. can't if they get a roadblock into. success then they just stop. They break. down they I think that problem solving. is gone. I think that that the critical. thinking and problem solving in the. majority of this country and people's. heads is 100% gone. I see it with. I I see what's happening with my toddler. when he tries to. get up a hill and he can't make it and.

he asked dad for help. and I won't help him because I think. there's always there is always a way to. accomplish their your goal. It's just. how you navigate it and if you hit a. roadblock then you have to find another. way. And so what I tell my toddlers is, I'm not going to help you, but I'll help. you find another way. >> Yeah. >> Look at that side of the hill. It's not. as steep. There's no rocks. Maybe go up. that way and you can get to, you know, and and I think people need to start.

thinking like that. >> Rivers. Rivers. have a way of. getting to the ocean. It's never. straight. ever. You go around stuff. They zigg and. they zag. That's what we do. We have to. There's just no straight lines. Yeah. You know, I look at toddlers. I. think about the way we're born, the way. we're hardwired. And this idea that we're all born sort.

of, oh, you know, pure and like we're. just, you know, we're not polluted. We're innocent. Just honest creatures, you know, waiting to be corrupted by the. world. I don't see it, you know. I see. it. I see a 2-year-old playing with his. eight 18-month-old or three-year-old. bubble, whatever. You know, he's got the. toy. He's got the block, but this one. wants the block. He takes the block.

Hits him over the head with it. [laughter]. They We're selfish, man. We're born. selfish. We're born lazy. We're born dependent. We're utterly. helpless outside of the womb for years. We're unlike anything else in the animal. kingdom. These, you know, like a giraffe. is basically born on its feet like bo up. running like, okay, man, we're prey. All.

right. Best to run, you know, foss. The. same way these I mean, it's we are born. utterly helpless. for years and we think we are the uh the. sun in the solar system and we think. everything revolves around us. Mom and. dad, they show up, they feed us. It's. all just us. Ah, just crap my pants. again. I just crap my pants. Big deal. They'll fix it. Like we.

That's who we are. >> Mhm. >> And so what's the game, man? What's the. What's the challenge? How do you get a. creature like that to say, "Give me the. ball. Test me.". What's the uncomfortable way again? I'll. take that. Mike Easter wrote a great book called. The Comfort Crisis. Don't know if he's.

crossed your radar yet. >> Uhuh. >> You like him? I just talked to him. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. He [clears throat] was a he was a. reporter. I was a writer for like Men's. Health and those magazines and um wrote. a lot about fitness and uh and diet and. so forth and um was just feeling kind of. squishy with his own journey, you know. Um you know, he he he he was just. struggling a bit, I think. I don't want. to put words in his mouth, but he he he. got an invitation or reached out to a.

guy called Donnie Vincent. I don't think Donniey's eaten anything. he hasn't killed in 30 years. He lives. off the grid. And he invited this guy on. a caribou hunt up in the Arctic, Mike Easter, and they go. And what happens up there over a 30-day. period is really interesting. Um, and. the way Mike writes about it is to.

essentially dissect. every bit of discomfort he experienced. along the way from incredible physical. discomfort to straight up fear to. boredom. Like, we have no capacity to. handle boredom anymore, right? It's it's very difficult to. listen to an episode this long and not. hit one and a half speed. It's very. difficult to go into the bathroom. without the freaking phone just to keep. the thing, you know, like we're we're.

we're constantly. involved in in everything. And anyhow, uh so many good things came out of this. book and I'm I'm only uh riffing on it. because one of them was rucking. I'm I assume you rucked your butt off. >> Worked a couple of miles. Yeah, man. I. started after I read this book a few. years ago, I started rucking with. uh anywhere between 45 and 65 lbs when. I'm home, which isn't a ton, but 8 miles.

early every morning with weight. Changed. my life and it's uncomfortable, man. It's uncomfortable. Every step is. uncomfortable. It's just. But. they're benefits. This is not new. It's almost probably. boring to a lot of your audience. It's. just horatio horatio algae stuff. But if. you think about who we are when we're. born and if you think about like what's. the purpose of buds? What's the purpose. of basic training? And why isn't there a.

reverse boot camp by the way? And you. know what? Why do green horns why are. they wired differently? What what like. all all those things all that stuff is. shaping and tempering and and preparing. And so that's why I get I get a little. agitated when. what what comes back from the other side. is this really thoughtful kind of. contemplative. Well, gosh, I don't know. if the trades are for me. I I don't.

know. I guess maybe I could give it a. like, man. Okay. But how luxurious. How luxurious to be living in a time. when, you know, maybe I'll try it. Maybe. I won't. Maybe I'll just keep swiping. left. Yep. Yep. I think more people need to feel the. sense of accomplishment, too. >> That's the single biggest.

question I get about dirty jobs. like. when people like what did you what did. those people know as a group that that. the rest of us have forgotten? And the answer is it's not quite. accomplishment, but it's feedback. It's. like always knowing how you're doing. People in the trades, dirty jobers, virtually everybody I've profiled on. that show, crab fisherman, you know how.

you're doing, man. Not at the end of the. day. Over the course of the hour, the. feedback is constant. You don't need to. be managed really. You You know, you. know how you're doing. That's addictive. I mean, I love that. Yeah. And I don't. know that you teach it. It's a It's a. quality and it's present in some jobs. more than others. >> Yeah. I don't know if you teach it, but I.

think a lot of people don't even realize. it's there because they haven't been. pushed. But look, it's a heck of like like I. said before, man, it's a it's a it's a. it's a hell of a thing to wish for. Gosh, I what you need to do is lose. everything. No, you don't really have to experience. that. I don't wish that for anyone. But you. >> I mean, how do you how do you describe. combat to somebody who's never been in. it?

>> It's not everything it's cracked up to. be. And who cracked it up to be everything? I'll refer you to the earlier movies. >> Yep. >> I talked to a guy the other day, Clint. uh Roma, wrote a book called Red. Platoon. >> Mhm. This was the um. COP. Keading up in Nurstan. I guess it was.

09. He uh Medal of Honor. He led a. counterattack. They were overwhelmed. Taliban 4 to1 and he went back into the. fort to get the dead Americans under. crazy heavy fire. Good book, Red. Platoon. I asked him the same question, you know. I think he gave me the same answer. >> Did he really? >> Ain't all cracked up to be. >> That's interesting.

>> It's not. [clears throat]. Got another one for you. >> Yeah, man. I love it. >> Wrapping up the interview. >> So, I got a hot question for you. >> All right. We had Claude, since we're on. AI and Dirty Jobs, we had Claude dig. through everything out there on Mike Row. and Dirty Jobs to find the most viral. directions we could take and then narrow. it down to one hot question. And here's. what it came up with. [snorts]. Mike, I want to get into the most.

dangerous jobs on Earth. In Vietnam, we. had a job called tunnel rats. One guy. stripped down to a pistol and a. flashlight, crawling head first and. alone into pitch black VC tunnels barely. wider than his shoulders. And the. Vietkong built those tunnels to break. you. Trip wires that dropped baskets of. scorpions, puny stakes they'd urinate on. first so even a scratch turned septic. In the worst one, while they hit a guy,

they'd leave him alive down there just. so his buddies up top could hear him. screaming and feel like they had to send. more men down after him. Centipedes, fire ants, snakes, and maybe a guy. waiting in the dark with a blade. That's. the job. You've personally done over 300. jobs. So, across everything, what do you. think is the single deadliest, most. dangerous job in the world? That's. >> tough to beat.

Harry Bosch. I don't know if you ever. saw the show Bosch. He was a tunnel rat. He writes a lot about that. Connelly. does in the early books. Um. well, statistically just in terms of. danger and you know they kind of go in. and out. I mean deadliest catch crab. fishing is still up there. Commercial. fishing, logging certainly. Um, I mean the whole confined space. world, like that deserves a riff on. confined spaces. In fact, we did two.

specials on Dirty Jobs over the years. called. Really Tight Spaces because people, the. viewers love the really high crazy stuff. like top of radio towers and like window. washing from Bosen chairs 5 600 feet in. the air. That's a good one. Um, but they. also love super super super tight, claustrophobic spaces. They hate it, but. they but they love to watch it. I.

remember shooting a buoy tube with the. Coast Guard. These buoy tenders, you. know, they they bring up the buoys that. are out in the channel and they're. filled with barnacles and stuff and and. they clean them and refurbish them. before they put them back in. But. there's a tube in the middle. It's. hollow. It's about the size of your. shoulders. And uh yeah, you you shimmy up there and. scrape the crap out. And I did that with. a GoPro because a cameraman wouldn't. couldn't get a camera up there. And like.

there's so many moments of. claustrophobia. on that show that are really. I I mean, what can I say to a tunnel. rat? Oh, okay. [clears throat]. There were 350 jobs. There's one that I. would never do again. >> What's that one? >> Opal mining. >> Opal mining. >> Yep. Opal mining in the Australian. outback.

in a little town called Cooper Pey. It. was 129° when I was there that day. This. is the Opal capital of the world. And. Coober Pey is like if you in Australian. terms if Adelaide is like Houston, Coober Pedi is is north about 3 hours in. the middle of the outback. The city. itself is underground. It's too hot to. live above. But in the outback above,

they drill prospect shafts for opals. And the way you look for opals is you. you take a Caldwell bit and you start. digging these shafts about 60 ft deep. and then uh they got a rig over top and. they put you in a bosen's chair and they. and they lower you into this hole and. you get down 30 or 40 feet, you know,

you got your flashlight, you got your. little minor helmet and you're looking. around and you're you're in a grave, dude, you know, and what you're looking. for are are trace elements of sandstone. or or soap stone. They run in veins and. if you find them in between that vein. oftentimes is opal. So then you deal. another prospect shaft in the same basic. trajectory as the vein. And if you. confirm the vein, you dig another one. And after three, if you know you you're.

on to good opal, you bring in the heavy. equipment and dig out the hillside and. you create a cavern. You go into the. cavern and you chip out the opal. Opal. capital of the world. Huge industry. The. opal miners on the other hand are kind. of like crab fishermen in the desert and. on steroids because there's no ocean in. this part of the world, right? There's. no like I' I've been in every kind of. mine there is anthraite, buminous, coal,

copper, borax, all of them. when you dig these shafts, they don't fill them in. So, the night. before we get to Coober Pey and I want. to look at the opal fields cuz we're. going to be working there all next day. And I'm a little worried cuz these guys. are cowboys for real. And they fly me. over the fields. And when you look down, there are thousands of these prospect. shafts that have been dug over the years.

and none of them are filled in. Next to. them are these big giant piles of dirt. It's like an insane groundhog ran a. muck, right? Millions of them. And. what's left are these 60 ft shafts with. these giant piles of dirt next to them. And there are thousands of them. And as. I'm flying, you know, the pilot's like, "Yeah, you know, it's a hell of a. thing." Cuz you know, there's a lot of. wildlife out here. There's emu, there's. some ostrich, kangaroo, and um there are.

hundreds of them at the bottom of these. shafts. They fall in all the time and. they they they die down there, you know. And I said, "Well, that's that's. terrible." He goes, "Ah, you know what's. really terrible?" He said, "You know, Mike, what's really terrible is the. tourists." I'm like, "Well, what what?". And he's like, "Every year never fails. Some tourist, there's an underground. hotel in Coober Pey that's kind of. famous cuz it's underground. The. tourists come and then the sunsets are.

incredible in the outback and they go. out in the opal fields and they're. taking these pictures of the sunsets and. his pilot tells me a couple weeks. earlier they they found a guy found a. fella down there at the bottom of the. shaft.". >> Oh [ __ ]. >> Yeah. They figure he was down there. uh for two and a half days before he. died. and he was getting a picture. He's.

backed up. He's by himself. He trips, falls head first, 60 ft down like a. pinball all the way down. Lands on the bottom. His head, you know, twists his neck obviously shatters his. uh clavicle and his shoulder. Now he's. upside down. in the bottom of a 60-foot shaft for two. days looking up at the inky dark sky go. soft and purple and then red and then.

it's day and then it's blue and then. it's dark again. [sighs]. [gasps]. Now, I'm not claustrophobic in general, but I'm hearing this story and the night. before I know we're going to dig a shaft. and I'm going to go in and um and we do. And uh. on the one hand, I was happy to go in. cuz it was so hot and you go down six, seven feet and the flies, man, you're. just covered with flies when you're. topside. But you get 6 7 8 ft down and.

it gets cooler and you get 20 or 30 ft. down and it's pleasant except for the. fact that there's dirt all around you. and dirt's fallen on your helmet. And. then you get uh 40 ft down and there's. the sandstone and no opal. Bummer. But. because it's TV and you because your. crew is funny and because the guys are. knuckleheads, they they send you to the. bottom just so you can get a sense of. what it's like to stand at the bottom of. a 60oot tube and and look up and uh.

it's not all it's cracked up to be. [laughter]. You stand there [clears throat] and you. know the Aussies, you know, they. sprinkle water on you, pretend to pee on. you cuz they're Aussies. It's terribly. funny. And you just stand down there. like dirt on all sides and it's like. imagine being like 3 or 4 millimeters. tall in the bottom of a like a liter. coke bottle. >> and just looking up. It's 60 ft, six. stories.

And um. anyway, they winched me up and it was. just an extraordinary experience. And uh. 3 days later, there was an earthquake in. Kubi. A mild one, but strong enough to. collapse hundreds of. >> Holy [ __ ]. >> Yeah. So for years, you know, that that. was my my dream was that tourist in the. bottom of the the opal mine. >> Damn. So mining is is is kind of an.

answer. I can riff on crab fishing, dude. Those stories to this day haunt. me. And they changed TV, too. Shark Oh, shark suit tester. That's a good one. >> Shark suit tester. >> Yeah. So, I'm host I'm hosting Shark. Week 2008, I think. And uh it's like. dirty job shark week. So it's all the. dirty jobs involving sharking. And uh I. get a chance to meet Jeremiah Sullivan, the inventor of the shark suit,

>> like the chain the chain suit. >> The chain mail. Now this is before I. hadn't seen it on TV at this point. You. know, you see him all the time now, but. like what is it again? And Jeremiah, of. course, is like the he's like an aquatic. Indiana Jones. I mean, he has been there. and done it. He is G.I. Joe underwater. And uh so the job is to go make this. shark suit because it's thousands of. tiny welds. You look like Ivanho. You're. dressed up in this thing. It's flexible.

and like surfers were buying it, you. know, and um and scuba divers cuz you. know, nobody wants to get bit by a. shark. So I get to know Jeremiah and. it's a great segment and it's it's it's. really a welding segment. you know, we. make a shark suit and we try it on. And. then he says, "You want to test it?" And. I said, "Uh, yeah, sure. What? How do we. test it?" So, we're down in Biminy, [clears throat] I guess, maybe, or. somewhere in the Bahamas. And, um, the next morning, we agreed to.

film the test. But that night or that late that. afternoon, we had to take a boat out to. test the comms because there's no way. you can shoot a segment like that. You. know, my I got four guys underwater with. me with cameras at, you know, 40, 50 ft. We're going to chum the water like the. sharks are going to come in. I don't. know how anybody's going to react. I. don't know how I'm going to react, but. mostly I just don't know how the.

communication is going to work down. there. And I had a guy from TV Guide. with us too, like documenting this whole. shoot. So my crew and I were a little. nervous, [laughter]. I bet, >> cuz now the job is to get is to get bit. by a shark wearing one of these suits. So we go out the night before and I'm. I'm in the suit and I'm geared up and um. Jeremiah throws some chum over the side. and the sharks show up. He called them.

uh the men in the gray suits. Couple dozen of them reef sharks, you. know, 9 10 some 12 feet long. They're. big. And uh so the water's covered with. sharks and uh you know, my crew goes in. and they. get down to the bottom and they they get. situated and uh I jump in and the sharks. are leaving us alone. Um, but Jeremiah's. got the the chum with him and we'll.

bring some in close. They don't want to. bite you. They're not interested in you. They But they know he's got they know. he's got food. They can smell the blood. But we're in the water and I've got my. face mask on and it's a it's not a. normal regulator. So, I don't have it in. my mouth, right? I got a full face mask. on. So, I'm breathing the compressed. air. I've got a bicycle helmet screwed. into the shark suit and my mask because.

a couple weeks ago Jeremiah went down. with a friend and his buddy got bit in. the back of the head. So the insurance. company was like, you know, you got to. wear a bicycle. So I look like a. complete [ __ ]. >> And um at the time I had a deviated. septum. I got my nose fixed not not too. long after this. But I mean, I'm. certified, but it's it's tough for me to. decompress sometimes. because I can't I can't breathe that. good. And you know, you have to you got.

to clear your air. But if you have a. full face mask, >> you can't grab your nose. So, I can't. decompress. I'm 12 feet down and my. head's going to explode and I can't fix. this. I've got to jam the whole thing up. into my nose and I'm I'm going through a. lot of air because it hurts and it I. finally get it decompressed and a shark. swims up and bounces off my chest, right? Same sort of sphincter effect I. described before. It's a terrible.

moment. And I'm just like the sharks are. everywhere. It's all dark and purpley. and I'm pulling myself down on a rope. just to meet Jeremiah who's now I I. think we're 45 ft down and he's just. kneeling on the bottom waiting for me. Sharks everywhere. My crew is at a. respectable distance. The communications. are working, but we just want to get to. the place where we're going to be. tomorrow when we actually film it for. the Discovery Channel. And um the TV. guide guy's down there. He's very.

experienced scuba diver and everybody's. got cameras. Now, long story short, I. get down there and and and Jeremiah. opens up his thing and the sharks come. and they're everywhere and it's like, "All right, I get it. This is going to. be an amazing shoot." And then the. craziest thing, man, I um my chest. started to get tight. And I took a deep breath [clears throat]. and exhaled. And I went to get another. breath. Nothing. And uh the TV guide guy swims up to me.

and I basically burned through 40. minutes of air in 18 minutes. >> Holy [ __ ]. >> I'm out of air. Never occurred to me to. check my gauge cuz I was only down 20. minutes. But in hindsight, it was this the whole time. Now I'm 45. ft down. I'm out of air. I got a 45lb. steel suit on. I've got no buoyancy.

and my last breath was an exhale. So, I start uh panicking, you know. >> Wait, are you totally out of air? >> I'm out of air. >> Oh [ __ ]. >> I can't. My last breath was. out. I'm out. Leon was his name. This guy, he he. immediately sees the situation and he's. not in a full face mask. He pulls out. his regulator to give me the air. I.

can't get my face mask off cuz the. freaking bicycle helmet is all screwed. into the thing. And I I'm going to die. Like the air is right there on the other. side of the mask. dead. >> So this guy floods his BC, grabs me, and. together we kick and we rise at a fairly. stately pace like cuz you know you don't. want to go up faster than your bubbles. >> So dangerous. >> You got the bends, right? So no, we're. just going up like this.

And I uh I mean it it again if you if. you've never really been out of air at. depth it's it's it's hard to describe. but all I could see was the bottom of. the boat, you know, and it looked really. far away. [laughter]. And I'm kicking and I'm out of air and I. lose my uh peripheral. >> Oh [ __ ] Vision starts getting black. starts to gray out and uh and he just.

stays right with me, gets me up. We rip. off all the gear. Obviously, I I live. and stuff and whatever. >> Uh. but the next day, we had to shoot the. scene. [laughter]. >> Now, that's not tunnel rat stuff. That's. Nobody's peeing on punchy sticks. Nobody's torturing your buddies. But, you know, jumping jumping back into the. water the next day with all those. sharks. >> [ __ ] that. >> Was um. >> I the.

>> Yeah. The only other The only other. thing that rivaled that was the Golden. Knights. I jumped with the Golden. Knights. >> Oh, did you? >> Yeah. >> Right on. And that. >> I don't even know if. >> All right. It was great. It was great. It wasn't for Dirty Jobs. It was for a. show called Somebody's Got to Do It, which was very similar. And I was doing. a lot of military stuff. I had just gone.

to um [cough] I mean, I'd. [clears throat] done the CBS and I had. done I was on the Stenis for a couple of. days, you know, it was Summer E. It was and uh. and and and the Golden Knights called. and I had already done I'd jumped out of. planes before, but always tandem and. always for TV and somebody's got to do. it. I it wasn't about me. I wanted to be. about them, but I also didn't want to. jump out of a plane again strapped to a. dude's, you know, some guy behind me and.

I just had done it. And so I was like, you know, it was actually it was the. same moment on the Meno Bridge when I. said to the guy, "Oh, you know what. would be fun? I walk across the girder. and climb up the the cable, change the. light bulb. Let's do that." Knowing. there's no way they're going to let me. do that. I say to the uh the Golden. Knights PR guy, I said, "Look, the only. way I can do this for a show like this. is if you let me pull my own shoot,

cuz there's no way there's no way the PR. organ for the army is going to let me. pull my own shoot on television, right? There's just they can't do that." He. says, "Okay.". [laughter]. So, so I go to was it Fort Bragg and I mean. I'm so in my head with this thing. These. guys are amazing. I work with the shoot.

packers. I meet all the guys. We we do a. tandem jump cuz you have to do it. But. the the point of the story is to follow. me through an accelerated freef fall. training. >> Mhm. >> Right. Which they can do in eight hours. apparently. I didn't know. Who the hell. knew that? I I mean I. >> I sure as hell didn't. >> I didn't know it. >> until just now. >> I didn't know it. Um [clears throat] but. they were great and they walked me. through the whole process and uh it was. a two-day shoot. The first day was the.

process and the next day in the morning. I would jump alone and and and pull my. own shoot. Fine. The night before, dude, I am in my head because I had made. a pact with God. after the shark suit incident. I look, I'm not going to do this again. I mean, this I've done a lot of things. I've been uncomfortable in a lot of ways. and a lot of situations, but I'm not a.

stunt junkie, right? I'm not I'm not in. it for the adrenaline. I I do it for the. show to make the point to work with the. people who do it every day and then I. just move on. Well, I'm never diving. with sharks again. Bullfuck. No, not. going to do it. And I I said the same. thing about jumping out of planes, but. here I am. I'm going to do this and I'm. going to I'm going to break my uh going. to break my vow, you know, and I'm. nervous. I'm just in my head. So, we get. there early the next morning and you.

know these guys jump 8 10 sometimes 12. times a day. That's all they do is jump. They go up and they're out and they're. working on their formations. So, I get. there about 8:00 in the morning and. they're already up. And so my camera guy. is with me out in the LZ and I'm. standing there looking at the plane way. up there and you know the guys come out. of the plane and I turn to the camera. and I start to. really just kind of spill my guts, you.

know, like look man, I have nothing but. admiration for these guys and I'm so. proud and privileged to be here, but I'm. nervous. You know, I this is not what I do. I'm. older than I've ever been, you know, and. wh why why am I doing this, you know? I. don't I don't need to prove anything to. anybody, but they're so they're great. and they're enthused and and so I guess. what I'm saying is I'm glad to be here. I'm lucky to be here, but I feel like I. could maybe throw up a little bit, you. know, and and I'm just like so I'm like.

[cough] spilling [clears throat] my guts. to the [laughter] camera. Meanwhile, these guys are terminal velocity. They're coming in hot. And this is what. is it? Halo. low low openings, right? So they they're. popping their shoot I don't know how. like a couple hundred feet maybe and. they're coming in like a lawn dart one. after the next and they're doing the. swoop thing. So now I got another one of. those Emmy shots, right? You're the. camera guy. I'm spilling on my guts and. behind me the pros are coming in at like.

the speed of sound and it's like and. they're coming by head high right next. to me. So, if you're the cameraman, this. is [laughter]. this is the this is amazing shots. I. mean, it's just forced perspectives. And. the second one comes by and they're. coming like within 3 ft of me just. fly. And and in my head, I'm like going, "All right, well, this is working out. This this looks pretty badass. They're. going to do their thing. Plane's going. to land. I'm going to go up and I'm.

going to do it." Seven of them come by. Eighth one pulls up a little short, hits the ground about 35 miles an hour, maybe 60 ft behind me. So the sound a body makes when it hits. the ground at at that speed, there are a. couple things happening. The first is. just a general like a I mean really it's. like thud. When people write thud, it's.

really because that that that's the. sound. It's just. and then there's simultaneously a sound. like a whooing sound and that's all the. air leaving the body really quick. And. the third sound in this case anyway, you. remember when Bo Jackson would like. strike out and crack the bat over his. leg? >> It was that crack. So, I instinctively.

run to the guy and my cameraman follows. me and he inst he he he was shooting. anyway. He doesn't stop. It doesn't. occur to him. We're just following the. action like what the hell just happened. [gasps] and we get close and uh. he's unconscious and his femur's clean. in half and way out of the way out of. the suit. And [clears throat] then he. comes to and uh it's terrible. He's And. then everybody runs to him and my camera.

guy Taylor immediately realizes this is. not this is nothing we want to see. And. uh the whole team is there. The guys who. just jump with him. They're all there. They get him together. They get him in an ambulance and uh he's. gone. And now I know what happens next. Now, I. know the army is going to come up to me, Noah, my flight my jump instructor, and. and he's going to apologize and he's.

going to ask for the tape. because this was. no bueno. And of course, I'm going to. give it to him because I'm not I'm not. there to do anything other than honor. these guys. Um, this guy walks up to me, looks me square. in the face and says, "Well, you ready?". One more sphincter slamming shut moment. I'm like, "Ready?

Ready for what?" He said, "Look," I. won't use his name, but he said, "What. happened to that guy? I I don't know. what happened, but I know he's jumping. with an 86 ft canopy, and he made a. mistake. Your canopy is 170 square ft. You're. going to float to the ground like a. butterfly and I'm going to be right with. you. I'm not going to touch you, but I'm. going to be a few feet from you when you. come out of that plane. And there'll be. another guy on the other side and you're.

going to be good. Dude, I couldn't believe it. the most. bureaucratic. I mean, there's nothing I can tell you. about the military you don't know. >> That's just crazy. And I was so. I mean, horrified and overwhelmed and. grateful. I just said, "I just need a minute, you. know. Can we can we just have a minute?".

And he says, "Yeah, take all the time. you need." So, we go inside. Plane's. leaving in 5 minutes. >> Well, the plane wasn't even down yet, but it was coming. You know what I mean? And they're like, "Look, we're we're. going up with or without you." But. >> you don't want to not do it, do you? >> Mm-m. [clears throat]. >> So, I'm in I'm in the briefing room and. on the walls are pictures of I mean, it's D-Day. I mean, it's Normandy. It's. just this this is the 101st, right? I. mean, storied legends. And I just like.

those kids were up there, you know, 800. ft off the ground jumping out with 100. lb. >> on their on their backs getting shot at. while the plane just disintegrate. I'm. like, don't be a [ __ ] Jump out of the. plane. Just do it. Do it for do it for. them. >> Yeah. So So I do it. I jump out of the plane. with the Golden Knights and uh now what.

what I hadn't really thought through. Yeah. They were with me when we went. out, but they stay with me till I pull. my shoot, which I do. And then they're. gone, dude. They're [ __ ] gone. They're. right. So, I'm up in the air for like, I. don't know, maybe four minutes. figuring it out, guiding my way down. And it was beautiful and terrifying and. lonely. and amazing. for me. It was my first jump and um I.

missed uh I missed my mark by like 10 ft. and actually landed on the Macadam uh of. the runway and I stumbled and I fell and. I I tore my jumpsuit and skin my knee. I. was fine, you know. I jumped up and it. was just you absolute euphoria. I'm. fine. And um so we wrapped the shoot and. you know obviously I uh I promised to.

never show that footage and I never. have. But I'm telling you the story now. cuz it's 12 years ago and um and I saw. the Golden Knights jump at the Army Navy. game this year and a couple of the guys. were with me that day. >> No [ __ ]. >> Saw him on the 50ard line at Baltimore. Stadium. where uh I think Navy beat Army this. year by like one point. But he reminded. me of the funniest freaking thing, man. I don't know why I did this. This is. just the [ __ ] in me, but I couldn't.

help myself. The guy who jumped. uh a couple hours later, the report was he was going to be fine. Bad break, but he's going into surgery. He's in good spirits. And spoiler alert, to this day, he's still doing his thing. He has thousands of jumps. All went. great for him. Um, but his buddies were. like, he's so mortified [clears throat].

that this happened in front of Mike Row. and the crew. He's so I mean, can you. imagine? Like, you're the one of the. elite [laughter] parachutists in the. world on one of the elite teams and and. this happens. This goes wrong on. [clears throat] camera. Yep. So, I uh I. got a cell phone. from the jump master and I sent him a. photo and the photo is me sitting on the. curb near the.

[laughter] near the jump site. Um like. really about this angle, right? And my. my knee is here. It's got the tear and. the thing and and you can see my skin. knee, right? So, I sent him a picture of. my knee and me thumbs up with a caption. that says, "Brother, I know exactly how. you feel." Holy [laughter]. [ __ ]. And so, we texted and talked [laughter]. a few times for years after that. But.

that's my I'm going to go with that. That's the answer to that question for. me. >> Nice. for me, you know, sometimes it's a. tunnel, sometimes it's a plane, sometimes it's a skin knee, sometimes. it's freaking shark, sometimes it's a. upside down tourist in a an opal shaft. Yeah, it's not one thing, it's another. And I'll tell you something else. It's. not everything it's cracked up to be. [laughter]. >> Well, speaking of dangerous jobs and.

tunnel rats, I got one last gift for. you. >> Oh, no. >> I know you got to go here pretty soon, but. No way. Oh yeah. No. >> Oh yeah. Have you ever heard of Sig. Sour? >> What the? >> So that is that is some tunnel rat [ __ ]. right there. >> Holy crap, dude. With a suppressor. >> That is the Sig Sauer 365.

macro with Sig Sauer Light. Holds 17. rounds plus one in the pipe. It's got. the new Sig Red Dot and. Sig Sour Suppressor that's from Silencer. Shop. And uh so I got a buddy over at. Sig. His name's Jason and a friend at. Silencer Shop, too. And. >> I don't even know what to say, dude. That. >> they thought you might like that. >> Wait a minute. You gave micro a macro. >> That's right.

[laughter]. >> Wait a minute. Who who specifically is. responsible for this? Who who who gave. this to you? >> Well, I guess ultimately it's it's me. Um. I got lots of [ __ ] on my walls, too, dude. I've gotten many gifts. This is. the best story I'm ever going to have in. the future is going to be the day I. tried to get through security at the.

airport with this. [laughter] It's going to be amazing. >> That would be a good story. Fortunately, we're going to send it to you. >> with 14 rounds. >> 17. >> 17. >> We'll leave one out of the pipe, though. >> Probably for the best. >> Yeah. My UPS guy is not totally. trustworthy. [laughter]. >> He's not qualified for that delivery. >> Dude, I'm I'm I'm so uh I'm so honored. We uh God, I should not say this out. loud, but we have such a coyote problem.

>> Let me know if you need some help with. that. >> Or do we? [laughter]. >> Oh man, >> what what happens now? What do we do? How long we've been talking, by the way? >> Well, it is now 2:42. >> Is that normal? It feels normal for. this. We could go a lot longer. at this point. [laughter] I figure I. talk another hour. Maybe I get a. flamethrower. >> Let me see what I can work out.

>> Um, no. Look, it's a. I remember the first time I was on. Rogan. I told him obviously nothing he. didn't already know, but you uh. you can get a sense of somebody in a. half hour. You can maybe get to know him. in an hour, but truth doesn't really. come out till around hour three. And I think I think maybe that's why.

Kamla didn't come on. >> I don't know. I don't know. But you. know, if you're if you're a handler. and and you're trying to get somebody. elected, like my own partner is nervous as hell. that I'm here right now mouththing off. for three hours. She's like, "What the. hell are you going to talk about?" Like, I don't know. But but I do know that the. only thing worth a damn today that's. truly for sale is is what we're doing.

right now. It's not the news. It can't. be. It can't be, man. >> Yeah. >> It can't be the packaged. focus grouped thing. It can't. doesn't work anymore. >> You know what focus groups do? They get. rid of the really, really bad ideas and. the really great ones and they leave you. with the soft, squishy middle. Which is why.

most music sounds the same. Most reality. TV shows look the same. Most newscasts are the same. You better keep doing what you're doing, whatever that is. >> You, too. And thank you. That means a. hell of a lot. Thank you. >> What what what other country. in what other country could a guy sit. down for 3 hours, give him a bottle of. whiskey he won't drink, a knife he. probably doesn't need, and have the.

favor returned with a sig sour? Just a. >> Are you telling me you like the sig. better than the gummy bears? >> I'm saying I'm going to eat as soon as I. get this sig delivered. I'm going to eat. all the gummy bears at once and go out. and introduce myself to those coyotes. and see what happens. >> Send pictures. >> Yeah. From jail. >> Mike, it was an honor, man. >> I enjoyed every minute. >> Me, too. Really? [music].

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