Marc Polymeropoulos - CIA Senior Intelligence Officer | SRS #031

hey everybody welcome back to the show. this episode is broken up into basically. two different portions first portion. being all about CIA. how he got recruited what it was like in. the training pipeline over at the farm. and what it's like being an operative. second portion is all about Havana. syndrome Havana syndrome is basically a. severe traumatic brain injury believed. to be caused by microwave weapons pretty. interesting stuff anyways.

I just want to thank you guys for being. here I love you all thank you for the. support please like And subscribe to the. channel and if you're feeling extra. generous head over to iTunes or Spotify. and leave us a review links are in the. description love you guys enjoy the show. [Music]. these people would gut your sister you. put them on the streets of America they. would kill every American scary is the. wrong word they're just [ __ ] evil.

they would do it they would. there's not a doubt in my mind that. you're directly responsible for the. deaths of several bad guys. we're a Hellfire missile. you know ended the life of a really bad. guy because it's not only responsible. for killing two of our officers but he. was plotting additional attacks. phone number back in Fort Bragg of the. Widow of one of these officers we should. call her and we called her and we said.

we Avenge the death of your husband and. she just said Thank you. since 2016 U.S government officials. overseas and their families have. reported sudden unexplained brain. injuries these officials were injured by. an unseen weapon. looking in 2016 in Havana Cuba at the. U.S embassy there there was a rash of. these you know kind of mysterious. injuries in which U.S Intelligence.

Officers and diplomats as well as the. Canadian embassy staff you know heard. this kind of high-pitched sound but. really suffered debilitating injuries. many of you probably know by now earlier. this year I did a psychedelic healing. journey and that changed many aspects of.

my life for the better two of them being. I haven't had any alcohol or. coffee in over six months another aspect. that changed to mine is my morning. ritual and I want to tell you guys about. my new addition to my morning ritual mud. water it's a coffee replacement in my. opinion the best thing about mud water. is every single ingredient was added for. a very specific purpose. cacao and chai for mood in a micro dose. of caffeine lion's mane for alertness.

cordyceps to help support physical. performance chaga and reshi to support. your immune system turmeric for soreness. and cinnamon. for antioxidants. not only is mud water good for you it. also tastes incredible my favorite. ingredient is the lion's mane because it. keeps my brain alert all hours of the. day some people like to mix their mud. water with milk some people like to put. some honey in it personally myself I.

just dump it in a glass of water Stir It. Up. and throw it down the hatch mud water is. Whole30 approved 100 USDA organic. non-GMO gluten-free vegan and kosher. certified mud water also donates monthly. to the Berkeley center for the science. of psychedelics as mud water believes. the country is in a mental health. epidemic and so do I go to mudwater.com. Sean to support the show and use code.

Sean for 15 off that's mudwater.com Sean. use code Sean for 15 off. mark polymeropolis nailed my name you. got it. man I had to say that like 20 times but. um hey welcome to the show I really. appreciate you coming out thanks for. having me it's good to be in Tennessee. it's hot yeah it is we got a heat wave. going right now but um.

26 years. CIA Intel officer the author of clarity. and crisis and victim of Havana syndrome. so we got a lot we're going to dive into. today I did quite a bit of research on. Havana syndrome and. I had no idea how many different places. that was happening and and I can't wait. to. dive into your experience and and where. you think that's coming from but um and. we also want to cover a lot of your.

agency career and um and then we'll get. into what you're doing today but. every guest. starts off with a gift all right thank. you. do I open it now absolutely you gotta. open it now. well you pronounced my name correctly so. I got this right. I'm tearing this thing apart. all right just rip into it Jesus all. right Gummy Bears I love it.

thank you you're welcome and a teacher. too I love it hope it's a extra large in. my in my in my retirement anybody can. start hitting the hitting the gym a. little more thank you very much you just. throw it in wherever. yeah I I thought anybody who's deployed. with CIA knows that agency Personnel. love a good candy aisle that's right. right everybody go swagging candy aisle. for sure but let me just say Sean I. gotta say one thing you pronounced my. name correctly and that's it that you so.

we're gonna have a great interview and I. always tell a story. um back when I was in the Middle East. maybe 2005 2006. I was a deputy station. Chief and there was a crisis and the. president's briefers called me I was a. uh I was sitting at an embassy and they. said we got to go down and see George W. bush uh go to sleep W. um I gave my take on the crisis pretty. excited about it waited by the secure. phone hours later they called back and I. said how was it pretty pumped you know. Junior officer like the president's. gonna hear what I had to say and they. came back and they said the entire time.

in the Oval Office W was trying to. pronounce your last name. that's it I can relate you you are one. up on him so hey yeah hey I practiced it. before he got it that's right but um. just just before we dive in just off the. wall question sure all this UAP UFO. stuff's going on in the news right now. Congress just had their. First Congressional hearing on it what. 50 years yeah what do you think is going. on here you know I think that when you. you know I've gotten at 53 years old now.

you know smart enough to know that I. don't know everything. um and so while you know I think. probably 20 years ago I would have. dismissed all this as nonsense I don't. know I'm kind of open-minded now yeah um. you know and and so I think that clearly. you know the American people deserve to. know if this is if there is something to. this or not I will tell you I've talked. to Pilots who've seen weird stuff you. know you and I have had a lot of you. know time. um dealing probably with Air Force and. and navy uh you know Naval aviators they.

see stuff and one of my buddies the B1. pilot. um at the Air Force and the Air Force. still is now and I said what do you. think about this and he's like I don't. know. so I'd be open-minded I think that as. you get older it's probably the right. thing to do I'm open-minded I always. used to just write it off as testing you. know right military's testing stuff. agencies testing stuff throwing stuff. who knows you know all the experimental. stuff I mean so much I think so many of. these cases you know happened out in the. in in the West in Nevada obviously. testing grounds everywhere.

um it's funny I I've actually been to. Roswell New Mexico really um I have. because before a deployment um to. Afghanistan uh we actually we went out. there because the terrain is so similar. um and so there's you know there was. there took some did some did some. shooting did some blowing stuff up. um out in New Mexico so I don't know I. went to Roswell I saw the little crazy. UFO things t-shirts everywhere I don't. know who knows don't dismiss stuff. there's there's. you know there there might be an. explanation one day we'll see yeah I. hope so yeah it's interesting yeah it's.

interesting stuff that's not an. off-the-wall question by the way you. never know what you're gonna get you. know but um but let's dive into when. when did you first realize you wanted to. go into uh intelligence community so you. know everyone has their kind of their. origin story you know the journey that. you have I think for me you know I was. kind of a product of an odd you know. marriage my mom and dad so my mom was a. nice Jewish girl from Long Island and my. dad was a true Greek off the boat going. to University in the states and so they.

meet and you know it's a it's a marriage. which you know both sides of the family. totally objected to different cultures. religions everything. um but they left after they both. finished University and they went to. Greece and so I was born in Greece. um and my dad came back he was a college. professor at Rutgers for his whole. career um but because of that we would. go back every summer so automatically. here I am you know as a kid growing up. every two months or so uh or every year. I'd go for two months of the Greek. Islands not bad yeah even though I was.

middle class kid from New Jersey we. didn't have much money we always kind of. saved to do that and so I was able to. travel I was able to see the world and. then kind of the seminal event for me. it's amazing I think about it you know. even today I have a picture of this even. in my house back in Vienna Virginia is. my dad took a sabbatical teaching in. Algeria you know North African country. this is before it was racked by an. Islamic you know Insurgency and uh at 10. years old he's gone for a year uh my mom. and who do this now I mean I have two. kids in college you know we're always. worried about I know you know you just. had a kid right yeah so you got to see.

it you know how are you going to raise. them what are you going to let them. experience but my mom put me on an. airplane when I was 10 by myself flying. through Paris off to uh you know Algiers. the capital and my dad and I for. um for a solid month drove 2 000 miles. in the Sahara desert in an old. Volkswagen minibus with one of my dad's. buddies and I thought I was Lawrence of. Arabia and so at 10 I'm thinking like I. want to do this like this is. unbelievable. um and I fell in love with the Middle. East and so you know I probably read you. know a lot of Tom Clancy books over the. years and. um but I always knew I wanted to do.

public service and it was it was either. going to be the CIA I was thinking about. DEA I was thinking about FBI. um like everyone else I you know I want. to be a Navy pilot but my eyes went bad. I got Lasix you know a couple years ago. but I had glasses so but but CI seemed. like the right thing to do and I was at. up at Cornell University in Ithaca New. York. um uh and uh and CI recruiter was there. and I walked in and uh only job I ever. had. really yep never did anything else in my. life until now so did you go to the.

recruiter. um he was you know he was at the career. office you know and I made an. appointment I had an initial interview. and I said I wanted to join the CI and I. said okay and then of course it took you. know 18 months I had so much of a. background in terms of you know. obviously family overseas and just. getting the security clearances plus I. think my fraternity Brothers in college. didn't make it easier. um you know and they come and I think a. classic case I think they wrote this all. off. um I did have to sign something about. you know alcohol and drug use and what.

they alleged I had done in college but. they went to see they went to see my all. my college buddies who after we. graduated. um were living out in Breckenridge. Colorado so just go think about and they. walked in I think there was a mattress. on the floor a bong and beer cans. everywhere and they said you know have. you ever seen Mark do any of this stuff. and they said never it's surrounded by. this so it took me it took me 18 months. to get cleared but really that was it so. you know off I go into into CI really is. the only job I really ever had I mean I. had summer jobs painting houses and. doing you know work to make money in.

college but pretty amazing it's a it's. you know I think that's unusual now what. were they did they steer you in a. direction yeah so I went in so I. undergrad in a master's degree. um in in you know in public policy but. focused on on the Middle East so I went. into the director of intelligence first. as an analyst. um uh and you know it was away in the. door I wasn't sure what I wanted to do. if I wanted to be an operations officer. you know which is you know handling. spotting assessing handling. um spies and of course recruiting you. know spies those are foreigners who. obviously.

um provide us information. um uh but I started off as an analyst. and it was actually really interesting. for me for the first two years I did. that I went off on a temporary Duty. assignment to the Middle East. um uh uh you know maybe two or maybe two. or three years after after I joined and. I knew right then I wanted to go on the. operations side of it but. um what being an analyst taught me how. to do was to kind of brief but to write. which is which is critical because in. our job and you know talk about it later. the job of a of a case officer. um you can have you know you know if you.

go to an agent meeting you collect. information if you don't write it down. in the cable. um didn't happen yeah um but one of the. one of the the really interesting things. I did the my first job was on The Afghan. desk and I was with some senior analysts. there but this was a paper this was. written in. 1994. uh. the Afghan Arabs who were fighting in. Afghanistan and a young financier you. know where this is going named Osama Bin. Laden 1994 is one of the first Papers. written. um at CIA and friends of mine were.

involved in this I think people have. tried to you know submit foia requests. for this but you know agency was. tracking this back then not a lot of. people but Bin Laden was on the radar. screen and the Afghan Arabs there's ten. thousand who came and fought you know in. in the you know with the mujideen. against the Soviet Union until obviously. uh the Soviets uh withdrew from. Afghanistan but they were radicalized. and they were going to be a problem when. we knew it back then wow wow so you were. an analyst for two years that's two. years yeah and then I decided look I. want to be so I went off for a.

three-month assignment to obviously a. location I can't talk about in the. Middle East. um and I said look I Gotta Be You know. it's my personality I wanted to live. overseas. um and so I wanted to be a case officer. and I came back and and just you know. whether whether you like him or not I'll. mention a name um certainly. controversial but I went into my boss at. the time was John Brennan and I said I. said look I think I want to become a. case officer I'm going to leave and he. said sure no problem and he actually he. didn't fight me on this at all so I. probably was the world's crappiest. analyst you know it was pretty shitty at.

it so you know later on when he was CI. director I would I would you know. mention the story to him he didn't. remember it but but it was funny but but. you know in a good note the agency. didn't want me to leave. um you know they recognized something. about me and so instead of you know uh I. could have quit but I said I wanted to. become case officer so I kind of. switched over to the operation side went. down the farm which is our training. facility which is the worst kept secret. on the planet and then off I went you. know it's with I think seven operational. tours almost three years in war zones in. Iraq and Afghanistan a lot of tough.

times a lot of great times you know it's. a it's a journey that's filled with a. lot of a lot of incredible successes a. lot of humility I had friends who were. killed you know I lost agents. um and so a lot of good a lot of bad and. it's you kind of sit back at the end of. your career and. scratch your head and you wonder if it. was worth it or not and of course and. we'll talk about it later because the. end of my career was when I had the. Fateful trip to Moscow but save that for. later well let's talk about the farm a. little bit what was that how long is. that training pipeline so you know I. think it's changed over the years.

um and it's not terribly difficult so. it's anywhere from six months to a year. at least you know my recollection. um they changed this over time just in. terms of you know kind of adding. training Evolutions or or maybe doing. them up north. um you know at CI headquarters but it's. obviously it's a you know secret sort of. uh base in uh in Virginia. um but the idea is to teach you. tradecraft and so it's it's the again. it's the concept of. um well first and foremost you know the. basic the basic fundamental trait that.

you need to learn as a case officer is. surveillance detection. um so you basically have people follow. you you know for for you know weeks and. months on end and and it's the idea of. getting to from one location to another. doing things such as. um you know take taking certain turns. putting on disguises you know changing. modes of transportation but if you're. going to meet an agents securely you. know you can't bring surveillance with. you so it's like you know in your old. job in the teams like if you can't shoot. you're not gonna be a Navy SEAL yeah a. CI case after you can't if you can't run. a successful surveillance detection or. it's a basically basic process.

um and so that's you know they teach you. that and then it's the other part of the. tradecraft pieces is how to handle and. recruit agents so it's the idea of how. do you get an individual. um you know who and you have to find. their their motivations their. vulnerabilities. um and get them to kind of switch over. switch over come on our side and one of. the things that I found about the. training class. um and that this doesn't this is not for. everything that we do or we did it at. CIA but it's pretty realistic and one of. the things that I found was was. inspiring and I heard this over and over.

again and from even from when I when I. you know when I was managing in the. field and young case officers would come. out of the farm is you know they'd go to. assignment they say actually it's kind. of like the farm it's real but the. beauty of it is is America does offer. something. um and I know no matter what happens in. our country I'll always I'll always feel. this way that you know I do believe in. American exceptionalism but the you know. recruiting agents is not particularly. difficult because of what America has to. offer which is both you know political. freedoms but economic freedoms and so. you know so so a prospective candidate.

who's going to be a spy an agent. candidate remember CIA you know we're. not agents. um we're your intelligence officer an. agent is someone we recruit. um a foreigner a Russian a Chinese an. Iranian But ultimately they want. something that they don't have or they. have something that they need and a lot. of times it could be you know they want. their kids to get educated in the United. States or maybe there's someone has a. medical issue in their family maybe they. need money or maybe they've hit a glass. ceiling because their country doesn't. have the same kind of kind of just. justness and fairness that we do and.

that you can make something yourself so. we find those vulnerabilities and then. eventually you meet them and bring them. along to get them to spy on their. country. um but but I think that just. fundamentally as an American we have a. we have an advantage and I'll tell you I. I recruited agents for everything from. you know again you know a tangible need. maybe someone needed you know medical. assistance from a sick relative to. literally they were fans of the. Pittsburgh Steelers they loved American. football they were living in some you. know God forsaken country and were able. to watch some TV and and you know. through our contacts I'd get them a.

signed football helmet. um from the Steelers so so ultimately um. but that's what they teach you down the. farm is how to you know what's the. process. um of of of recruiting and handling uh a. spy and you know it's a it's not a it's. not you know mentally challenging. um certainly not like you know what you. went through with buds in terms of. physically challenging it's a lot of. time management. um and that kind of that that's the key. and the weeding out process really is. surveillance detection skills and again. just the ability to to kind of crunch.

your time and have this kind of. information overload and ultimately you. know they they produce officers who who. you know uh well the last piece I think. was critical is the ability to operate. on your own. um unlike you know the military CIA is. actually kind of a different beast and. where you know case officer is out on. their own whether they're handling an. agent meeting an agent recruiting. someone you're never you know usually. you're not with someone else and so it's. that ability to think on your own which. is uh it was was really critical as they. kind of weed out folks going through the. for going through the class what is the. attrition rate.

I don't know if it's particularly large. I mean my class it's funny so our you. know the classes were huge after 9 11. and the hundreds my class was Tiny I. think we only had 30 plus and there was. only a couple of them that year and that. was pre-911 so everything changed. um but the attrition rate I think is is. small in a sense maybe maybe 10 or so. out of that out of our 30 didn't make it. but what is more important is just. getting it in the first place I mean I. think the attrition is more in the. screening processes when you go through. tons of stuff even to get to that point.

but it's it's not like it's not like you. know selection for for you know year old. um your old life I think it's uh they do. a lot of that in advance. um rather than through the course itself. and then really people drop out people. don't make it because they can't detect. surveillance and some people can't I. mean you know it's just the idea of you. know having Street awareness yeah and. Street smarts um and the other is just. kind of that information overload and. how to deal and time management because. that and that's why at the end of the. day the class is actually realistic to. what you what you see in the field. interesting so when you show up they.

actually want everybody to make it they. really do it's it's different you know. it's funny there's you know there are. there are you know um interesting folks. who come through it's not all you know. it's not all going to be kind of type A. personality you know former military. first form of Special Operations there's. there's some introverts there's some. true kind of academics. um uh but they got to have those those. Street skills but the end at the end. they want you to get through. um uh and I think that the the idea is. the selection has occurred almost in. advance and uh uh but but again you know.

the the it's it's months and months of. of basically you know just as as I think. you know you're familiar with. um having people stare at you you know. 20 hours a day. um and then particularly you know when. when you get to the end of the training. cycles and again very similar to the. Special Operations world where you have. these kind of real world training. scenarios. um kind of final final exam over a week. or two weeks um that's where they turn. up the heat and I'll tell you that that. you do lose people then and that's. that's a pretty you know awful feeling.

seeing some some people you spent you. know almost a year with you know not. make it the last two weeks but there's a. reason for it because in real world you. want them want to be ready where do they. go if if you don't make it word is great. I mean you got the clearance so they. will give you an opportunity they used. to to go somewhere else in the. organization you know the CIA is made up. of obviously the operational side we're. talking about here but there's obviously. an analytics side we've talked about it. before there's a you know there's a. science and technology side so there's. other places I think they'll give you. some time to to uh to find another job.

and some people take it I think a lot of. them don't. um and again it's it's the kind of thing. where you know that that I there's and I. don't know some people I think should. have made it who didn't and just you. probably can identify there's some. people who made it you're like yeah. that's with every outfit yep every. outfit that's with every outfit but it. was it was a really good. um you know uh uh course which taught. you a lot about yourself. um and it really is realistic and like. look there's a thousand things about the. US government about the agency that we.

can you know all be critical of I'm sure. you agree. um that this training Evolution for. becoming case officer is pretty damn. good. interesting I've seen I've worked with. you guys a lot about nine years sure and. uh. I can't remember how many deployments. and I've always the majority I've seen. with you guys developing assets and. spies is is and recruiting. recruiting people. I see a lot of turnover you know I see a. new case officer come in they take over.

uh the management of the asset. I've only seen a few times where we. actually are. going after somebody new and uh and. trying to turn them but but what I've. never discussed to be honest with you is. is. you show up to a brand new base nobody's. been there. in your recruiting where where do you. even begin sure yeah I mean so look area. fam is is you know is the number one. thing so for a variety of reasons so you. got to get there so you know first of.

all you know hopefully you're taking. turnover from someone but if it's a new. base you know you got to get the lay of. the land. um you know one of the things that CI is. really good about and and we kind of it. went away a bit with the war zone. deployments only because it was such a. mad rush to get a lot of people out. there that they didn't have kind of. proper language skills but if but if you. know if we prepared properly before you. go out and assignment you you know the. local language you know the culture you. know the religion. um and then you kind of get there and. you hit the streets and then so you know. one of the things for me is one of the.

the differences I think between you know. uh CI operations officer and and someone. from perhaps the state department. um or even even someone in the US. military who's used to being on a basis. you know I would I would look around. like when I was managing in the field if. I see my guys and gals there what are. you doing here you better be out in the. street you better be on every street. corner you better be talking to. everybody. um you know one of the things things. that you want your officers to do is be. the smartest person you know in that. area you know for the US government. period. um and you know I I remember I was in.

the Middle East one time and uh and. there was a senior Congressional. Delegation and and I was the deputy. station Chief and you know whether you. like her or not I'm gonna you know maybe. some of your listeners or viewers won't. but Nancy Pelosi came out I mean she had. she at the time it was the the majority. leaders speaker of the house whatever it. was the number two or three person you. know one of the most powerful people in. the US government and uh the Ambassador. actually told her the Ambassador had. just gotten there I told her hey go talk. to Mark he's the smartest person on this. country. um and I was really proud of that and it. doesn't matter it's irrelevant on which.

political you know American political. figure came. um but ultimately you know that's what. you want to be because I you spend no. time uh in the embassy or the base. um your whole job is to be on the street. and so you develop you know so you kind. of you can go you know step by step so. you got to know. um you know who are the powerful people. in that area so maybe if it's a you know. Iraq or Afghanistan obviously we have. local contacts who are the Warlords you. know who are the power Brokers and you. just kind of go from there and and in. the end you know you're throwing a net. out. I've got to overturn rocks and and.

there's people out there with. information that we need we find them. um it's not particularly hard uh uh to. to recruit what it does do it it's just. it's you know shoe leather it's it's. hitting the streets. um because ultimately again we have a we. have a you know uh kind of the best. um no when I say product to sell but. hopefully if it's the United States and. whether it's you know it's whether it's. a war zone if Iraq or Afghanistan it was. it was not difficult to recruit agents. because. um you know we paid well and we were.

gonna win now whether we can have a long. discussion on whether that was. successful or not but um but but I. remember in Afghanistan you know one of. the most interesting things getting to a. base one time and I and I talked to we. had a local. um contact he wasn't he wasn't even a. recruited agent but but ultimately I. said you know what's your story and he. said well you know I was I was a member. that. um Communists under the najibula regime. in Afghanistan you know this is decades. ago and then the Soviets invaded and I. became a muja Deen and then the Taliban. took over and I became a Taliban then. you guys game I'm with you all now.

and so that's just you got to find. people who are willing to help. what are you guys using as a cover you. know I know it's always different but it. depends where and this is where you know. the obviously you know there's different. elements of the United States government. that can provide cover for us I can't. tell you which. uh you know and sometimes or you know. whether it's the you know the military. or other other places or you're there as. a declared representative and so you. know the more senior you know. individuals at a at a stationary base.

um you know might be declared to the. host government. um so it just depends and then we have. non-official cover officers who pose as. businessmen and business women do you. think they know. um a lot of times yes so so if you're. doing your job successfully by the end. of your tour. um they're gonna know because who else. you know just because you know US. Military Officers. um or or you know a state department. political officer an economic officer. maybe they're not you know out eight you. know eight nights a week seven nights a. week yeah I'm joking but you know so. it's you know our job is just to know.

know the streets so you look a little. bit different but uh but that's okay. because what is going to beat the. adversary in the end that's your. tradecraft so let's say I'm in a certain. location and my cover is is kind of. shredded at that time. um well I still have to go meet an agent. well my tradecraft how I run that. surveillance detection route is going to. beat the adversary. um but at some point it's time to go as. well and you know that yeah uh and. you're trying to remember one one tour I. had. um there was a it was a U.S television. network came out and they were asking. around.

um kind of locals and I had a lot of. local contacts and uh and and I remember. the the the some of the local contacts. told me I said you know what who are. they who are they asking for and they. said well you know this this this U.S. um uh journalist was asking like you. know who's the smartest person in this. country and they said and my local. contact said was said the word around. town was go ask the CIA guy around you. know that's Mark and I was like Ah. that's not good that's you know that's. maybe I've been here too long and then. then that's and that's why we have you. know a two or three year assignment in a.

place because you know it's sometimes. um it's time to go and the other part. too is you know being a CI officer. there's some risk involved and depending. where you are you know. um uh you know risk risk gets elevated. if you're uh you know if you're in a. country too long so yeah we've we've. both seen that. play out in better ways. just another question yeah. it is a lot of times it's a two or three. year assignment I've seen a lot of you. guys get attached to the asset uh and.

but I've always wondered does it bother. you you when. I mean if you're working on something. for two or three years and then you. switch stations and you go to another. part of the world. I mean I would think that you can't help. but wonder what's what's happening at. the old station now it's developing do. you get any insight on that or is it I I. love that question that so so I was I. was a a pretty good recruiter uh uh and. one of the reasons why I was good is.

because I in the recruitment process and. the development. um uh I became really close to the. Target. and you do this in different manners so. you can you know you spend a lot of time. with them but perhaps you know you. introduce your families together. um you know they're kids and so so I was. able to recruit them but oftentimes and. this this made it really hard for what. we call turnover oftentimes when it was. time for me to leave. the agent would say or the asset it's. interchangeable would say. um well wait a second I I've been spying. for the US I know that but I really did.

it for you mark. um and I don't want to take the turnover. and and I I kind of sucked at that part. uh and I lost and so and there were some. some agents who did not take turnover. because I just was really good at. getting them on board information was. totally legit. um they'd be willing to meet other. people maybe we brought an analyst in. um from back home and so it's all it's. all going great but they're like yeah. you know what I did this for you I don't. want to do this anymore and so that was. that was one of my achilles deals you. know you as in this job you know and. it's it's it's it's kind of like.

everything we do in the Intel and. Special Operations world like you know. you you know your talents are out there. for every everyone to see and kind of. your your faults too and that was one of. the things I really wasn't great at. um and I struggled with that my whole. career is that is that period of. turnover but but here here's the you. know Sean the amazing point is running. an agent. um to me it's like it's like a romance. um it's it's this incredible. relationship and so you know I'll never. forget we had I had taken turnover of it. it was a I got to be careful on saying.

he was a member of an Arab government. um and he uh uh I was training him on. communication techniques and and. tradecraft in Europe on the streets of. Europe before he went back to the Middle. East and I was going to handle him. inside and we're doing kind of really. sophisticated Communications protocols. and this and that one night he took me. aside and he said I spent a lot of time. there I'm there for a couple weeks. having dinner with him getting to know. him even more and he said he goes Mark. you know I know you're going to go. you know we're gonna be in the same. country. and and you know we're going to meet. maybe once only once or twice a month.

using all these established protocols um. and you have the rest you know you have. you have your life there. um your family's gonna be with you and. he this guy knew America he goes I know. you're gonna be watching Armed Forces. Network watching football at the middle. of night on Sundays like all the. Americans do and so you're gonna think. about me every now and then he goes he. goes but make no mistake I'm gonna think. about you every single day because if. you make one mistake I'm dead and not. only am I gonna die my family my whole. tribe is going to die so you have to be. perfect and I was shocked at that but. then when you think about it I mean. that's the essence of handling someone. because you know their life is in your.

hands and I I love that story and I told. that story a lot of you know the younger. officers when I was managing them later. on. um because that's what the essence of. becoming a case of being a case officer. is is you know it's an individual. relationship with someone who if you. screw up they can die and you better be. damn good. um and so and so I tell that story. because then when it's time to for. turnover I've had this two or three year. period of doing this with someone and. it's it's you know it's an emotional. attachment yeah and you got to be pretty.

cynical not to because because then when. we when we turn an agent over that's it. you're done no more contact yeah you. know this is a this is a considered an. Institutional relationship with the CIA. um and so you're gone and you know the. agent is struggling with this and you. got to kind of secure the turnover to. another but what about what about the. case officer that's only human nature. um and and you know I just I just you. know thinking about you know your old. career too at the agency I mean you. supported a hell of a lot of agent. meetings and you probably saw some of.

the agents we had who did some damn. heroic things for the US government and. then when you you know and and you know. whatever whatever's happening in that. country they're risking their life and. so you know you end up I remember you. know some of your former colleagues. being super you know super tight. um with some of the really kind of. Superstar agents we had in Iraq and. Afghanistan that's just human nature. yeah but I always I always the turnover. part I sucked that that was that was. really hard that's just an Achilles heel. I had I was known for that uh they're. like oh crap this is gonna it's gonna.

suck Mark's gonna [ __ ] up this turnover. um but just it is what it is I still get. phone calls today at my house in. Northern Virginia from from Agents. overseas that I that are long you know. past their time with the agency. um somehow they track me down because. probably I'm too stupid to hide my phone. number. um but pretty wild because they just you. know if you if you agree to spy for the. United States God damn that's a pretty. big decision yeah you know someone who's. gonna make when the sanction is death. think about that have you ever lost an. agent yeah yeah it was uh.

um it was early on in my career in Iraq. um you know in in late 2002. um Before the War uh I went up into into. Northern Iraq with a team of agencies. and Special Forces. um uh uh uh uh operators and and we're. kind of we're kind of you know setting. the setting the stage for The Invasion. didn't know if it was going to happen. our job was to collect you know. obviously Intelligence on Saddam. Hussein's uh military so. um just kind of classic order battle. stuff which made sense because you know.

this is what the Pentagon needed and and. we had recruited in Iraqi. um who uh was eager to help and he was. providing kind of order of battle. um and and everyone was loving it and I. was the handling officer and you know. it's up to me to determine the meeting. cycle if that means how much how many. times is he going to cross you know from. from Iraqi lines. um into the Kurdish territories which. was dangerous uh and and I I a. combination of him being too eager and. me pushing him too far.

um even as DC was you know loving this. information. um he was caught and executed and I'll. never forget that and you know one of. the strange things I I felt that I was. you know I was responsible. um. but it just yeah I hate to say it it's. just you know it is what it is it. happened and so it's a combination of I. pushed him too hard really he took too. many risks and because because the. agent's always saying I'm fine. because he also wants to get paid yeah. um and so but ultimately I never forgot. that because I thought that was on me. and that was that was really really. personal.

um to me and so that was a really shitty. time how did you find out. never showed up he just didn't show up. I'm showing up you have a meeting cycle. yeah yep and then and then you know you. you know essentially receive reports. from other other other assets or you. know. um or perhaps you know I can't remember. if the Kurdish Partners told us that. that he wasn't but but ultimately never. showed up again and I just and I I you. know for a long time I remember what the. guy's face looked like yeah um now you. know that the the pace there was so.

intense and then I got pulled from from. being up in the north to go kind of link. up with some of your old boys from Naval. special Warfare from with Dev group and. went in to the hvt hunt into Baghdad and. so I had a crazy two months after that. so it was only really you know I started. process processing kind of that loss. when I got back after six months. um uh in Iraq but that stuff stays with. you I mean it's a human being and they. you know this person put their trust in. me and and ultimately I failed them I. mean that's you know that's you know. it's I look back at my career.

um and I have all sorts of you know I'll. invite you to Vienna you know Virginia. if you ever want to come up north. um you know I have a place similarly not. as nice as the studio here but I have my. little room where I have my Intel metals. and all the [ __ ] from all the. tours overseas now sit around we'll have. a have a scotch or bourbon but but. ultimately you know there's a lot of. failure that went along with a lot of. successes yeah um and there's a there's. a lot of kind of you know mental and. emotional baggage. um and for me some physical baggage too. that came with all these things so it's. not it hasn't always been great and you.

know there's even even to my times in in. you know in Afghanistan when I ran one. of our paramilitary bases you know we. lost a whole bunch of indeed soldiers. these are these are the Afghans are our. own. um you know surrogate forces as well as. the the the the commander of the Afghan. uh unit was killed when I was there you. don't forget that stuff yeah I mean you. know you're dealing with two two. different aspects you're dealing with. the emotional aspect that you've gotten. close with the asset and now he's dead. right and then also what I've always.

wondered and I've seen I've seen I've. been in country when this has happened. several times uh when the asset dies I. mean all that work. seems to I mean you got it all the way. up to a certain point and then just like. that it's back to square one and um. so and it had you know in wars and and. then later on in war zones when I was. when I was running the uh you know one. of our bases in eastern Afghanistan and. we lost. um a couple uh assets were caught and. killed too and you know it's not to say.

you get used to it um it's it certainly. is part of the business. um you know if this is not without risk. uh uh but you know I think that you know. and we all and both of us have. experienced losing colleagues as well. and that's horrific. um but but I look back and and that is. the worst possible. um outcome of any operation and I. experienced that and that was kind of. catastrophic for me but I also don't. forget the agents and again these are. these are the the people that we recruit. and so you know that's and that's that's. one thing about CIO officers I think.

they're a little bit it's perhaps a. little bit different is that you know. our job is to deal with foreigners you. know that's what we do you know I joke. you know I do a lot of talks to colleges. all over the country right because I. really want to advocate for for you know. uh people to join you know public. service to join the National Security uh. sphere and so I would say you know if. you want to protect Americans if you. want to live in the United States and. deal with a lot of Americans join the. FBI or become a DEA agent if you want to. you know if you want to you know see the. world eat funny food learn languages and.

uh and deal with other cultures and deal. with foreigners you know the agency is a. good place for you but. um but our foreign Partners. um are really important and and I was. you know I was I was shaken up not as. much admittedly as losing a colleague. but losing an agent you know losing a. maybe a partner from a liaison service. you know someone we're working with at. host country that's tough yeah. let's take a quick break and when we get. back let's get into some operations that. you did after 9 11. sure.

and I remember laying there and you can. hear the gun go off and there's a delay. you know this period of time before the. rounds hit the ground and I remember. waiting and waiting and all of a sudden. so this crowd followed the group back to. pottery and basically rioted outside the. gates they're like trying to tear the. gates down.

this Taliban leader apparently was. friends with Karzai so obviously his. network of people call and say hey the. Americans arrested your buddy are you. [ __ ] me they've released him. released all of them all to all 10 guys. who were bad this is this is the kind of. [ __ ] that makes me wonder what the [ __ ]. we were ever doing there in the first. place. is coming out of the vegetation he. literally stepped right on an enemy.

fighter this enemy fighter rolls over. and goes to engage him and he shoots him. and that started that gun fight the. whole world erupted at that point. [Music]. I guess that's when I caught the round. from behind it hit me in the face ear. traveled through my face. you know you and I were talking about. death Jay and those guys saw that they. saw him before so they thought I was. dead. kind of the world starting to open back.

up and like I could hear the gunfire. uh it's the one all of us have to die. did you know 75 percent of the human. population struggles with sleep. I didn't know that but I did know that I.

was one of that 75 percent I'm a. business owner I'm a parent my mind's. running a thousand miles an hour all. hours of the day to try to get these. shows out to you and then I started. looking into it and I found bio. optimizers. bio optimizers has identified seven. different unique types of magnesium that. when put together. help you sleep the process is real. simple you take two pills before you go. to bed every night you sleep like a baby. you wake up and you're ready to tackle.

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of your operations in Iraq Afghanistan. post 911. sure or pre if you want free. if you want if you were there but. so you know I mean well everything. changed after 9 11. let me just let me. go back to actually 911 that that day. um it's an interesting story just for me. because I think for all of us our whole. world changed. um you know CIA changed I mean CIA was a. not a sleepy little outfit but we went. from you know an organization that you. know had a mission to one that had. almost an obsession afterwards.

um which is to to track down you know. capture and kill everyone involved in. this. um but but on on 9 11 that day. um uh my my whole family we were in. we're in the Greek Islands. um why it's relevant is I actually was. assigned I was in I was in New York City. at the time you know there's something. called The Joint terrorism task force. um which is where you know in select. cities around around the United States. this is out in the open kind of press. um it's kind of a multi-agency effort to. to you know track down.

um uh and of course deter terrorist. attacks on America ironically. um I was there I was assigned to that. that unit in New York as an agency. officer but we were gone. um that day and why it's relevant is my. daughter's daycare center was in World. Trade Center five. oh and just you know that and and you. know the Legends the wrong word just. know the you know what we heard. afterwards there's some some kids were. orphaned. um from from that daycare center we just. just by by dumb luck just weren't there. that day.

um and about five days later I was able. to talk our way on to you know the first. some of the first flights coming back in. or maybe it was a week later in the. United States and I immediately went to. work and I was you know working with the. bureau in New York City. um but what kind of changed certainly my. life and my my career was. um walking through the wreckage in. ground zero and just absolutely surreal. it's still smoldering I mean it was it. was it was smoldering it was on fire for. for weeks and months but it was this was. this was pretty intense and I'll never.

forget walking through. um and this was I mean it was it was. surreal and there was I don't know if it. was in New York City firefighter. um or a policeman but he was in full. kind of Scottish Garb playing the. bagpipes walking through the wreckage. just I get chills even thinking about it. now. um and we all knew like all right this. is you know every day September 12th now. um and and probably not not for the rest. of my career because I did some other. stuff. um you know afterwards on on Russia we. can get to later but you know the.

majority of the rest of of my kind of. professional life was was going after Al. Qaeda and going after terrorist groups. and. um you know that that feeling that we. had was was extraordinary I mean I was. you know in New York City and you know. we knew who Al Qaeda was certainly knew. who Bin Laden was. um but there's a feeling at the agency. that we failed. um you know and and you know perhaps. it's not fair it's almost like you know. being a soccer goalie yeah um you know. One's Gonna Get By You Well the pretty. goddamn big one got by.

um but the rest of us you know then just. kind of dedicated our ourselves you know. the rest of our lives and obviously you. did as well and Sean. um to to you know tracking down those. responsible for this and made it our our. mission it's something that you know. there's so many. um you know kind of retrospectives on. certainly on Afghanistan uh uh but. ultimately I'm really proud of what we. did um because no matter what you know. there's so much controversy. um there's some great things that we did. obviously you know uh uh degrading and. destroying Al Qaeda including killing. Bin Laden and there's some things which.

are Super controversial you know. enhanced interrogation techniques and. and gitmo and other things like that but. I tell you know no matter when I go. around the country talking to folks uh. you know and they they will they will. raise these things and I'll say where we. hit again. and the answer is no and that's because. of of the work of Special Operations. Community the intelligence community and. what we did at CIA and I'm super proud. of that but boy that day changed. everything what. how long was it before you went over to. the Middle East after 9 11. uh pretty.

soon I was yeah I was I was. raising my hand and throwing a bit of a. fit. um and so I I then made it to a North. North African country okay um which was. a close partner of ours and so we ran. counter-terrorism operations from there. and then I first made it to Afghanistan. I believe February of o2. um so not one of the first teams uh that. went in I think that was October of 2001. but by February of 02 I was in Kandahar. which was absolute Wild West yeah. um really extraordinary time it taught.

me a hell a lot about myself also taught. me some things about the agency that. were that are that that I think we've. gotten away from a bit but which were. good was just get there and we'll figure. it out. uh you know I mean so you know you know. so so as a regular case officer you know. not you know with what you're doing. um uh uh in your line of work for the. agency but you know so we'll go through. some weapons training before we go out. there so you've got a couple weeks on on. kind of on the Glock on the M4 and then. you get out to the real world and where.

the [ __ ] are the m4s well no grab an. AK-47. to figure this [ __ ] out there's no. [ __ ] you know scope on it or anything. like that it's a just a. um you know steel site right there and. so it's you know it but it was it was. exciting you know that was that to me is. what made the agency really great you. know Expo plans will sort of you know. someone will come get us here or there. there's a couple people. um you know it was it was such a wild. time in Afghanistan in the beginning. um kind of you know hunting down high. value targets. um and uh and so it was just kind of.

pretty pretty amazing and then that's. really where. um I saw uh uh kind of extraordinary. cooperation um between uh the Special. Operations community in the military I'm. sorry and the agency. um really start which is really. interesting because those first and and. it was a rock in Afghanistan. um you know in the in the 0203 time. frame but then all the way up to when I. left those relationships all stayed. um so that you know the junior you know. uh guys from fifth group. um and I remember you know Chris Miller.

who ended up being the ACT you know the. uh the acting Secretary of Defense. remember the Under Troubled. Administration I remember him as a fifth. group guy I met in 2002. yeah and so. it's those are really important. relationships that are built over time. but. um but uh but getting Afghanistan was. important I wasn't there for long it was. it was probably under a month. I mean that had to be. that had to be insane I'll tell you the. the again a story that just this is the. way we do things and I was actually fine. with it I remember getting there and. someone said hey you know you know you.

got you got about a four hours of sleep. then you got guard Duty on the roof. I'm like okay so I jumped up on there's. an at4 up there. and some and some I'm coming off and and. the guy gives it to me says you know. here take this and I'm like. I have not been trained on this you know. weapon system like what the [ __ ] he was. actually he was a black order guy from. he was a former seal um it was up there. and I'm like can you [ __ ] wait five. minutes and show me which way this thing. [ __ ] shoots. and he's laughing and it wasn't that. hard. um but it was just and I'm sitting.

sitting up there thinking and I I'll. never forget this uh you know I'm a CI. case officer I speak Arabic so that's. why I'm there. um because we're chasing down you know. the al-Qaeda the Arabs obviously the uh. the majority of Al Qaeda were uh were. from the Arab world they're not they. weren't this wasn't going after Taliban. going after the Afghans. um but I'm sitting on the roof looking. to listen to the call to prayer there's. there's you know there's some there's. some you know automatic you know weapons. fire in the uh in the background with. the the uh day before we got there we. had uh someone had shot a rocket and.

kind of zinged off another roof and. almost took out the base but we're fine. um but I'm like what a [ __ ]. opportunity this is this is cool as [ __ ]. that I'm here now there's some things. I'm really good at so you know we're. going to recruit agents we're gonna. catch some bad guys some things I don't. know goddamn thing about which is how to. fire an at4. um uh uh but you know what we're just. gonna make it work and we had a great. team we're co-located with an Oda it was. a it was a night there was a 19th group. teams that makes sense from Colorado so. these are really experienced. um you know operators from Special.

Forces you know most of them who were I. guess I think it's out of Colorado but. but ultimately a great bunch and uh and. you know Cobble station might have been. a billion miles away they're just like. go. wow I have money I had agents on the. ground supposed to go find some you know. some uh some uh uh you know we had. obviously a list of of you know high. value targets and. um uh this is this is there's so many. incredible times from that but but I.

don't know if you recall you know before. the invasion in Afghanistan. um there's a famous scene in Kandahar of. the Taliban hanging a whole bunch of. what they called agents. um and it's in the soccer stadium and. this is this was you know this is this. was broadcast worldwide one of the. really amazing things was as I got there. we actually found the Widow and one of. them was an agent of ours someone who. worked for the agency. um we found the Widow and I kind of made. it my priority to give her what you know. kind of the the the death benefit the. payments that we will give you know when.

an agent is killed in the line of duty. um a foreigner you know we will always. take care of the family that's just. something that that the agency does and. that's you know it's one of the again we. talk about the relationships before yeah. between the agent and and the case. officer or just or the organization. um so I tracked her down and and this. wasn't a kind of a sexy operation it. wasn't written about anywhere but I got. some money. that the agent was was owed owed and I. went into some dingy little you know you. know mud cut in Kandahar city.

um I couldn't talk to the the wife. directly because it was in Afghanistan. such a traditional culture and so you. know it's it's it literally is like a. like a curtain hang between us and she. of course is fully covered. um and I made some kind of silly speech. which I thought was kind of you know. very very relevant um about his. sacrifice because it was all over you. know every every media Outlet in the. entire planet that this person had been. executed um and we gave the we gave the. payment and that was something that was. really important now you know how this. ends who knows did she ever ever get.

this she probably had a whole bunch of. male relatives who stole the money but. it was just you know it was night after. night of just doing these things. um and I'm just having you know feeling. um that you know what a what an. opportunity this was that I was honored. to be able to do. um this kind of stuff and again. different time of Afghanistan this was. this was only months after 9 11. we were. eager to kind of track down. track down uh uh you know those those. responsible so where were you. had you gone overseas prior I know you. earlier you said you were in New York.

yeah I had done I got to be careful. saying this I had my my you know my wife. was in the business as well she was on. her first tour in a in a country in the. Levant in in the Middle East and I went. to learn Arabic okay so I I I actually. you know took that time it's you know we. do one of the things the agency does. really well is these tandem assignments. so. um you know if if you know the two. officers are married they'll try to get. people both jobs and so she had a great. job there and I would and I needed to. learn you know uh Arabic so I did my.

time there the reason I'm asking is is. uh you know when I when I worked there. and I assisted you guys with a lot of. operations. I always. it was always kind of talk around uh the. outfit that I was in is. you guys are coming from working in. permissive environments then you show up. to just a straight war zone Kandahar and. O2 right you know and and and. your guys's adaptability is phenomenal.

but a lot of times you show up and and. and you'll be like well you. you might not want to go out there but. you know by yourself and you might want. to carry a little extra yeah stuff and. no you're right and um but I was just. wondering what is that because that's. just a completely different world to go. from uh you know just what what Moscow. to pandahar Afghanistan there are those. you can do to make that transition and. those who can't I'll never when I left. there so I I I followed a case officer.

who had been in Special Forces and he. was certainly more. um uh you know had you know in terms of. you know his uh uh his background was. was more conducive to being where he was. but then I showed up and I spoke Arabic. and I was comfortable in that. environment so I I offered he you know. he had some things that he offered that. I had some things that I offered I. remember when I left I I the officer. coming in was not shouldn't have been. there and sometimes you see that but. um you know but but what's interesting. why this matters is the management in.

the base or the station and so. um you know uh so for example if I you. know if if when I was because I did both. I ran stations in in permissive. environments and I ran you know a base. in a paramilitary uh uh environment it. was in eastern Afghanistan we got. rocketed every day for the entire year. it was insane. um so someone who didn't have military. experience or hadn't been in that kind. of environment before I would say okay. here you are and you're going to go do. your agent meetings you're going to have. your security Personnel like yourself.

Sean. um ordinarily we tell case officers you. make all the decisions when it comes to. to that op and safety you're going to. listen to someone else today. you know so if we if we got you know. Shooters with us. you know they're going to be the ones um. just just rely on them at the same time. sometimes I would get officers who came. from a war zone had a spectacular career. to a permissive environment and they're. like hey man I did a tour and I'm like. well sort of because what you did do is. you served your country for a year in a. really shitty place and risked your life. but you know what you never ran a.

surveillance detection route because. John you guys ran it for him you know. what I mean yeah and so and so you got. to be able to adapt and you know the. case officer has to have some humility. one of the things I worked really well. with your old outfit. um uh because number one. um I I respected with you know what you. all brought to the table in a tremendous. fashion but it was also you know I was I. was like okay if you know if if the hair. starts you know going up in the back. your neck. um get us out of this I'm not gonna. question that I might have an agent. meeting this agent might have.

information we desperately need but it's. Sean if you come to me said Mark we got. to get out of here we're getting out of. here. um and you know you just kind of have. that that kind of back and forth um with. your security folks and. um to me that was always oh because I. mean you got to have some humility I. don't know certain things uh parts of of. uh uh you know what are required on the. security side and perhaps you all don't. know what's what's you know required for. the agent handling as much but you kind. of have that kind of mind meld together. and it can work it doesn't always. there's some tension sometimes yeah. um and and I would have to talk.

sometimes to the security Personnel or. to. um or our case officers saying just you. know get your [ __ ] together we all got. to work together but. um at the end of the day. uh you know when you when you run. operations. um there's a fallback which means if. you've got to get off the X get off the. X yeah and because you know there's no. you can't you can't you know bullets if. a bullet's gonna. come at you and can't turn that around. yeah so you know yeah. um uh and I think after after some. terrible instance instances in in the.

war zones where we lost people I think. people got smarter yeah. how many deployments did you do in in. war zones so I did uh I got to be. careful on saying this so it was it was. you know uh probably almost three years. all together. um off and on it was but it was a solid. year in 2011 2012 I was Chief in eastern. Afghanistan and Patika Province. um uh and then before that it was my. time in Afghanistan then half a year in. Iraq and then some other places I. can't always talk about but it was it.

was it was enough where I became really. comfortable in that environment. um and it's important for a couple. reasons you know I I was I'm not former. military. um so I was very cognizant of that and. and so you know if I was a base Chief. um in a in a in a paramilitary base I. would have a. um someone from our special Activities. center. um as a kind of the chief paramilitary. advisor and I would have you know some. security folks from from your old outfit. there as well and maybe some other other. other folks too and so man it's a team.

effort and so you know if we're taking. incoming rocket fire I mean we have the. ability uh and and the authority to. return fire I'm going to rely on people. who know how to do that so you know I. might give the final okay or I might. just say don't even ask me you know we. have the point of origin site we're. getting shot at by Al Qaeda across the. border in Pakistan return fire with our. mortars that's I'm good with that. um and you kind of that's but you say. you know what you know yeah um and uh. and so it was but I became really.

comfortable in those environments and. that's what I was kind of known for and. I think that. um uh not everyone can do that uh uh but. it's just a it's a place where I where I. thrive because I also brought that kind. of the operational side of things so. again I was a good recruiter I mean I. and I and I was also singularly focused. I think that. um. I remember when I got to Afghanistan. even much later on 2011 and 2012 and for. for a variety of reasons. um you know I really was super. aggressive. um this is coming off a kind of a. terrible tragedy what happened in one of.

our sister bases in Coast in uh on. December 30th 2009 so a lot of us wanted. a lot of you know vengeance is the wrong. word we're not really supposed to. um you know taking Vengeance out on our. enemies it's a very kind of calculated. process and how we go after high value. targets I mean it's got to be based on. kind of continuing ongoing threats to. the US Personnel but the idea of of. killing you know killing Al Qaeda. um uh uh members or collecting. intelligence to do so and I'll tell you. know the proudest story I had in in a.

war zone. it was from my time. um uh in 2011 you know I got to the base. um I'll never forget flying in it was a. I was replacing a great friend of mine. ironically who had been up in Northern. Iraq with uh in 2002 his name is Mick. mulroy he's out now and he talks he's a. former Grand Branch officer um in. special activities uh uh Center then he. went on to be a station Chief uh in. Africa super great friend of mine again. and we had spent you know months. together in Iraq and I'm flying into. Afghanistan and if you recall you know. our kind of Hilo infills are always at.

night and we're flying in and this base. took incoming in 107 millimeter rocket. fire you know constantly and so we're. hovering until kind of the IDF finished. and we go down there and you know. security folks. um someone pick me up and we can get to. a kind of the the hardened shelter the. base and I'm I'm but I'm there for a. year this is my base and I'm like what. the [ __ ] if I got myself into which. which is which is it's the right it's. the right attitude yeah and uh and uh. and mix there with a big smile on his. face he's like hey man welcome. um and he couldn't wait to get out of.

there too so we do a quick turnover and. he's on the bird and he's gone. um but one of the things about that. particular location is a couple years. earlier. um two CI officers uh had been killed. um from our special activities uh uh uh. Center and uh and we knew who did it. um and so you know there's a lot of. things you can do you know so we're. there trying to win hearts and Minds we. have all of our kind of humanitarian. projects and we also have our the hvt. mission and I gather everyone in the. base and I said if we do anything in.

this next year we're going to get we're. going to kill the dude. um who's responsible for the death of. two of our colleagues and we did you did. yep and the night. we're a Hellfire missile you know ended. the life of a really bad guy because. it's not only responsible for killing uh. two of our officers but he was plotting. additional attacks and responsible for. additional attacks against American. forces and that's really important too. but. um you know that night sitting around. the fire pit which is as you remember. you know it's caveman TV. um the single greatest uh uh moments.

I've had uh in war zones or places like. that you know the camaraderie the person. if you ask me what do I miss about CIA. it's not the bureaucracy there's a whole. bunch of bad [ __ ] that happened to me in. the end but is that camaraderie around. the fire pit in a war zone. um but uh one of the uh. um uh one of the guys with me there. um was like hey man I have the I have. the phone number back in Fort Bragg of. the Widow of one of these officers we. should call her. that's [ __ ] unheard of wow and I said. [ __ ] got the sad phone and we called. her. and we said we we Avenge the death uh of.

your husband and she just said Thank You. holy [ __ ] um no cables and and that to. me we sat around had a toaster Bourbon. and uh and that was that was relatively. early on in my year but I was like that. was good man. that felt good and and you know I've. talked about this story before and some. people have criticized me as saying you. know you know you know that's that's. just you know getting you know kind of. getting Vengeance for something that. happened in the past but. not not you know the code is you know.

these people you know this this. individual took out two of our guys and. and we got him in the end and I I. freaking love that story that's. interesting that you say that and uh. because that's one of my next questions. is. since we're on the topic of killing yeah. one thing that I noticed is is. killing is a lot more. people don't get so emotional about it. when I was in the SEAL Teams right it. was. whenever we'd killed somebody or took.

out a group of bad guys or whatever it. was more of a it felt more like an. accomplishment yeah when I jumped over. to the agency what I noticed is there's. a lot more. emotion uh within agency Personnel when. it comes to. when it comes to killing bad guys yeah. what was that like and and I know where. you were at in Afghanistan you know. Kandahar. extremely dangerous place we were. talking about an East Afghanistan.

probably even worse a Time magazine. called my old base the most dangerous. place on the planet yeah that's fun when. you go home to your wife and you say hey. I gotta go to Afghanistan for a year and. she's like are you going to Kabul I'm. like yeah maybe not but. um I guess what I'm getting at is. because of the areas that you were. hanging out and there's not a doubt in. my mind that you're directly responsible. for the deaths of yeah several bad guys. what was that like for you emotionally. mentally the first time that you were.

directly oh that's a great question. um you know it's it's uh it's it's I was. flat. there was it wasn't anything you know it. it happened actually first in Iraq and. I'll never forget this because as I was. uh. um uh this was this was probably March. or April of O3 and I'm running around. with you know uh some of your old your. old buddies. um this is with Dev group and because we. were doing the hvt hunt but occasionally. and then then I would work with some of. the other uh nsw.

um units there. um which actually you know for probably. a variety of reasons were actually it. was was a lot. it was it was easier to work with them. because they're really eager to kind of. jump on board um and we were doing some. other things but I remember collecting. intelligence. um on the location of a you know. remember the old fedain Saddam these are. the Iraqi Irregulars. um and uh and so I had I had the. geocords and you know we're somewhere in. Baghdad and I freaking knock on a. [ __ ]. Bradley Fighting Vehicle.

that was nearby and I was like. here take this and they're like [ __ ]. game on and then you hear that [ __ ]. that were yeah of the uh of uh whatever. I don't know what caliber weapon comes. out of a uh uh out of the Bradley but. um God damn and afterwards I was just. like that was [ __ ] crazy uh so we. there was some bad guys we killed. um that was that was a little weird I. think I I think that it was it was that. was different from me because I then saw.

on the ground I mean there's there's you. know this is this is the you know we're. the infill in into bag there's a lot of. dead bodies around that stuff [ __ ] me. up when I came back I had some pts after. that yeah. um. different than doing the CT mission in. Afghanistan where. um where where just 100 uh you know it's. it's kind of clinical. um you're collecting intelligence. passing it to certain. um you know either you know certain U.S. government.

uh uh uh entities that can kind of do. the Finish. um and then uh and then they're gone. and but wait I didn't see it up close. did you ever watch it happen yeah all. the time how did that feel and and in. person too watching airstrikes. um. I don't it just because you know I I. became this is this is maybe it's a dig. I mean I became almost obsessive with it. you know there's remember the old that. old uh still around The Long Word. Journal. yeah that's it so longboard Journal kind.

of covered the hvt fight in Afghanistan. and when they'd run an article that said. you know senior Taliban or senior. Al-Qaeda member killed by a drone strike. I'd [ __ ] cut that thing out and put. it up in the base nice and we had that. [ __ ] covered everywhere nice um and. that's what that's what motivated me but. it wasn't it was there was never high. fives it was it was kind of a feeling of. calm yeah. um weird you know so. years later and you know when I was uh.

at Walter Reed kind of getting you know. getting treatment for for my traumatic. brain injury I remember I met a uh this. is a great story a grizzled the the one. person who helped me the best there was. a drizzled old Marine Corps chaplain. chappie. um you know I'd seen all sorts of. psychiatrists and psychologists just. asking me about how I was doing and so. he sat I was with one Dev group guy one. Navy EOD guy and one uh air force uh CCT. and he said okay let me just let's just. talk about moral injury and he said is. anyone here feel any regret for any of. the killing you've done and everyone.

kind of said no and he goes all right. let's move on. and so it's the same kind of thing it. wasn't that that I was I was not. traumatized by that I was okay with it. um uh I don't know. you know and and kind of the the issues. I've had. um afterwards were not really didn't. really surround that I'll tell you what. doesn't happen there's no high fives. yeah there's no cheering involved I. never saw any of that. um you know and uh it's just it's just. become because it's just because it's. again everyone had their memory every.

day was September 12th yeah I've seen. I've seen both I've seen people be. devastated because of it I've seen. people get really excited about it and. then the people that. do it all the time. it's kind of like all right let's go get. some dinner yeah that was it you know. let's go get some Chow get ready for. tomorrow yeah I mean I just I I just I I. think that you know and then and I was. involved in some other uh types of. activities like that. um uh over the years outside of the war. zones and so you know ultimately just.

something that that we did now some. people don't like that I mean you know. there and the agency is is a is an. interesting place because there there. are people. um to this day who don't you know didn't. support kind of the whatever you want to. call the targeted killing program. um which was 100 legal and lawful or. they get very upset about things like. you know the enhanced interrogation. techniques and this and that I you know. for whatever reason just with me it. really doesn't bother me. it just does I understand you know for. for moral reasons why why you know some. people get upset by it but you know what.

then don't get involved in. counterterrorism operations I mean it's. there's an ugly side to this yeah. um and uh and and you know the men and. women I know who are involved in this. kind of stuff I mean you'd go to your. local I don't know what do you got here. in Tennessee Safeway Publix Giant. grocery store they look like normal. people they're not Superman or super. women. um but they were comfortable in doing. what we had to do yeah and uh and to me. that was uh I I have no regrets on any. of that. um and even when it you know people. really get upset about the whole issue.

about torture and I get it and and. probably we shouldn't have done some of. those things but I don't lose sleep over. it it's weird I just I'm being super. honest in this you know in this. interview it just doesn't doesn't bother. me maybe it should have you ever sat in. with a uh advanced irrigation I I was. not I was I was once in an interrogation. not with a with a an Arab intelligence. service where they they started they. started abusing the titanium we told. them to stop. um yeah they played by another set yeah. and it was just they were stupid and it.

actually it caused a bit of a bit of a. stink but but I I never it's and and so. you know again I talk about this stuff. to to groups all the time they're like. well you know first of all they don't. believe me. um like how are you not involved in any. of the EIT stuff with all this your. counterterrorism experience I just. wasn't maybe it's luck. um I certainly you know in in when I was. in Kandahar in O2. um I remember going to. um some of the initial you know doing. debriefs in in prisons. um with with some of the initial.

Al-Qaeda members who were caught but. this was this was a basically it's a. battlefield interrogation it was nothing. and I'll tell you one thing and this. this and my wife and I talk about this. all the time we're like are we bad. people for not caring about this because. I really it doesn't bother me and maybe. that's something that's wrong with me is. I you know this is this is in February. and March of 2002. these are al Qaeda. these are Arab Al-Qaeda Fighters taken. off the battlefield who are in some. shitty tent somewhere being guarded. and I would look at them and I was like. these people would would.

gut your sister you put them in the. streets of America they would kill every. American possible I mean I sound you. know. it's scary scary is the wrong word. they're just [ __ ] evil they would do. it they would and so when it comes you. know so so my I guess my view on some of. these things whether enhanced. interrogation techniques are. it's it for me it's not the moral side. of things more and is it effective or. not. that's where that's you know that's. where I come in and a lot of people say. it's not a lot of people say it is. but after seeing the the AQ Folks up.

close and personal and and there's a lot. of people who are very active. um uh in defending you know Folks at. gitmo uh defending some of the the. senior AQ folks who were subject to. enhanced interrogation I got no time for. that yeah because these are evil. [ __ ] and I'm telling you I. remember having this you know you know I. grew up in in again my dad was a college. professor and you know um uh I'm pretty. center of the road politically he's. super uh you know uh on the left and I. remember coming back from Afghanistan.

when I saw him one time and I said I. said Dad man I saw these people like. it's like they've got black in their. eyes. um and and I think I'll never forget my. dad and my stepmom are just like I. [ __ ] kill all of them. [Music]. that's awesome I don't know it's it's a. really weird personal thing for a lot of. us who did counterterism operations but. it just I don't lose any sleep over it. and the other part too is I don't think. it's ever going to happen again you know. we're not going to do those kind of. things you know the the the targeted. killing which is which is really.

regimented and lawful. um the agency you know under covert. action authorities will you know. probably continue to I imagine. um you know be involved in this in terms. of enhanced interrogation it's so. controversial we're never gonna go near. that again and so you know people. remember when uh I think uh former. president Trump in in the campaign said. something about he was for it like. that's not even a relevant issue no CIA. officer is going to go near something. like that for a billion years you know. how does the season get into the public.

yeah I know that's what I want to know. is how does that even get into the. public yeah. um well about the you know there was. obviously the black sites got leaked. um. uh uh but again again it's just it's. it's I don't think we're ever gonna do. it again it's it's not it's it's a dumb. debate to have yeah it is interesting. you know you know how we got there. um but to me what what is not really uh. you know known. um you know I hear you know former uh uh.

acting director CIA Mike Morrell talked. very passionately saying this [ __ ]. worked yeah it's effective it's. effective. um I don't know. um uh you know if there's a if there's a. tick and Time Bomb what do you do. if you were director of CIA right now. yeah would we be doing that no no just. because it's too controversial oh God it. ain't worth it. um it's just it you know it it is that's. what I that's what I say it it's you. know now now I should should the CIA um. you know conduct you know lethal.

operations use kinetic operations. absolutely. because we're [ __ ] good at it I mean. the one of the things that that I found. amazing. um and I was you know later on in my. career I was I was involved. um uh in some of these kind of unique. programs. um I'll kind of leave it at that is our. ability to do man hunting is. extraordinary and that's when you marry. up you know human intelligence spies on. the ground with ISR which is obviously. view from the sky whether it's aircraft. drones. um and then signals intelligence siggin.

um our ability to track someone anywhere. around the world is is unmatched and. we're really good at it and you know. Americans didn't die because of that so. you know we had we had decades under. multiple administrations whether it's. George W bush. um whether it's Barack Obama whether. it's with President Trump. um uh uh and now with with Biden that. you know we have a unique ability to. track someone globally and and we're. really good at it and thank God we are. and I got no problem with that because.

you know again when it comes to Al-Qaeda. going back to that time and February. March 02 I'm looking at an Al-Qaeda. detainee like these people will gut your. sister yeah there's there's no. rehabilitation. and sometimes you got to go kill these. people I I learned a lot of a lot of. lessons I think over the years from. working with the Israelis. who kind of have that attitude yeah well. I mean they're chopping our reporters. heads off on National Television that's. right and I think Americans forget that. I mean they do you know the when you. think back do you remember uh a couple.

years ago when when uh drone strike um. killed uh gossem solomoni. um uh again you know what did that tell. you we we have an amazing ability. to do this now you know. um uh that's and that's something that. uh that has been honed over two decades. yeah so I'm I'm I I sound like a crazy. person saying this but I'm pretty damn. proud of of our ability to do that. because it's protected Americans period. does it. So speaking of tracking people yeah do. you get especially with the Sig and.

stuff because I remember when I came on. and I started seeing some of the. capabilities that we had and that was. I've been shut that was 10 15 years ago. now so I can't even imagine what we have. now but it when I left it made me very. paranoid knowing how effective we are do. you do you have any paranoia well I mean. it's it's paranoid is the wrong word I. mean it's you know it's all. self-inflicted so you know what do you. want to do every day I'm an idiot I'm on. Twitter and you know and yeah and you. know all family members on Facebook.

Instagram so you know how do you think. we do this stuff yeah so so an American. Americans have this incredible uh uh. willingness to put their whole life on. social media well guess what that's a. targeting package for someone yeah you. can choose not to do that now I'm I'm. probably not disciplined enough and I. you know tweet about too many stupid. things like my love of the Red Sox and. you know all this kind of stuff but but. ultimately I'm I'm here in Nashville now. so we went out to bourbon steak last. night well I was tweeting about it today. yeah it's the best damn steak I ever had.

I told you about my 112 dollar stake for. my wife and I's 25th wedding anniversary. but but ultimately is is we you know. there's so much out there and so that is. sort of when you talk about Sig and I'm. talking about open source. um but but you know so so an adversary. and just as we can track everything. about you what are your you know like so. so Sean I don't know your social media. profile but but if you're just kind of. like the average American. um uh we can probably tell you know. where you're going 24 hours a day yeah.

um and that means our adversaries can do. this to us as well and so so there's. there's but but a lot of it is what we. would decide we elect to put. um you know some some of my friends one. of my one of my uh friends you know. lives out in Montana now and he's like. Off the Grid. yeah for this reason I get super. paranoid sometimes and and I do the. whole. I mean I do the whole turn the phone off. throw it in the other room go outside. you know and and I still do that right.

and um but you're right but but it. because I mean it's so it's not I mean. you can be paranoid about our own. government you can be paranoid about our. adversaries but but yeah but I mean I. don't know probably a private detective. yeah I'll be tracking you um again it's. everything we have your entire life is. on your cell phone your computer. um uh you know I mean so I don't know. what did I do the other day I was I was. looking at you know my wife and I are. now obsessed about buying an RV so I was. on just on the internet Googling RVs you. know these I saw them here these like.

these little small Winnebago Ravel it's. pretty cool they're too expensive well. God damn every time I jump on my social. media now boom there's some algorithm. RVs pop up everywhere. um you know and so it's just a it's a. kind of thing where uh yeah you could be. a little paranoid but but again you know. the the that's how you know what how. adversaries can track US. um that's how we track them and it's. just that's the that's the world so uh. uh I mean that's it's a whole other. conversation but imagine trying to run.

Espionage operations trying to become a. good as a case officer you got to go run. a surveillance detection route but you. have that you know the the kind of the. Advent of of social media and how people. can track you and you've got to go black. yeah it's tough yeah yeah I can I can. imagine. earlier offline we were talking and you. had mentioned I believe it was one of my. colleagues saved your life yeah and got. a agency started I'll just start sure. can we go in absolutely so this was uh. it was a it was a raid in Baghdad we're.

going after a high value Target with Dev. group and one of your your colleagues. Security Guys um former uh seal as well. um I can't say his name but uh. um we uh uh we had uh. we caught someone who we had to do a. quick kind of Battlefield. interrogation on who we thought would. have knowledge where the hvt was and the. initial search. failed to find a giant kind of Machete. it's huge knife on him as and I'm in.

this small vehicle afterwards. um. and and as you remember how you position. yourself in these is really important so. one of your colleagues we you know we. put the guy in the back here your old. colleague is here so he could have kind. of a a view just across the seat and. this guy goes down and pulls this giant. knife out and lunges at me. and and uh uh uh can we say the old. outfit where you're at do we say that or. not yeah gee this is you know from the. the GRS staff security staff uh uh he.

pulled out his block put it right to his. head and didn't shoot him. um but that was it I was that guy would. have just jammed that knife right in me. um so so after so it was it was so. obviously I was quite indebted. afterwards uh the Juris. um uh officer received the intelligence. star which is the which was one of the. agency's highest awards for bravery. um certainly 100 warranted of course. with as you know with your old outfit it. turned into it wasn't really a Giant. Knife giant machete it was a little. bread plastic uh you know bread knife so.

so all your colleagues gave gave uh gave. him [ __ ] for years and years but but. I'll tell you one thing that was uh that. was pretty crazy so you know of all the. all the times I mean that was that was. close yeah and afterwards I was just. like it happened so quickly after I was. like what the [ __ ] just happened and I. turned to the seals I was like you. didn't [ __ ] search the guy well. enough they're like hey sorry about that. I was like. my bad. um but you know what uh afterwards that. guy talked and later that night we.

caught a huge hvt really and actually. you know it was uh so just that was the. you know it was it was the pace of. operations there where. um you know we were we were I was joking. before as we were talking I don't think. I took a shower we didn't you know I. didn't know running water and shower for. six weeks it was it was it was wild but. we were running every night trying to. trying to catch. um this this is remember the Saddam. Hussein's deck of 55 yeah the old regime. uh figures but we we had some enormous. huge successes there. um yeah it was I almost I almost bought. the farm on that one and so and again it.

was uh you know the the uh the the GRS. officer save my save my butt turned out. to becoming a dear friend of ours. um and tell you know talk about loyalty. and camaraderie I remember years later. and it's probably from his time in the. teams but also from from us I remember. calling him one time and I don't know. Mike this was a couple years after that. my kid was like. 10 or 11 got into fight at school. and and I'm gonna accidentally say his. name I shouldn't. he was living down in Virginia Beach. he's like I'll be there in three hours. I'm like what are you doing like he's.

like he's 11. he's like I got it. I'm like no you're not coming that's. awesome yeah so but you know that's. that's you know when you go back to the. the you know those so whether it was you. know in the streets of Baghdad with this. you know with the uh with GRS or again. with my team in eastern Afghanistan you. know and and think about all the. deployments you did. um that kind of camaraderie you can't. miss I'm sorry you can't replicate. that's what I miss.

uh uh from from being in in the. organization because it's you know you. look to the left and the right and it's. your brothers and sisters and that's it. and a lot of times we're not thinking. big picture on stuff. know this is you know we have a job at. hand there's an operation at hand I'm. not thinking about the geostrategic. value of Afghanistan or Iraq but it's. going through those times and just those. kind of those intense moments. um even I mean again that you know I've. been getting rocketed every day for a. year I didn't have alarm clock in. Afghanistan for that whole year it was. hilarious Al Qaeda every day for a year.

6 a.m 107 millimeter Rockets coming down. damn don't go don't go running then. every day was it was you know it was a. uh they were stupid they were too. predictable because then you know. uh it sometimes didn't happen at night. sometimes it happened when the helos. would come in. um uh but uh that's that's where you. kind of you forge these relationships. and you know one of the things that that. I I still do is you know there's a great. little Dive Bar in Northern Virginia. called the Vienna Inn it's a famous. agency hangout but.

um you know from the from the people I. serve with whether it's in places like. Iraq Afghanistan Syria other places you. know we still meet up there because. those are the relationships that are. that are really important to me has. nothing to do with what they became. later how high they you know they got in. life they don't give a [ __ ] about my. career in terms of you know I was very. senior at the end of my career um it's. just remembering those times. you know I just like story after Story I. mean I I just we just did a reunion. there recently and we're talking about. there was there was a. it was a he was a uh a ground Branch.

contractor. um former the former deaf group guy who. loved animals. and we had we were co-located with the. Special Forces team. and they [ __ ] shot and we had a dog. curly the dog I mean I sent pictures of. curly back to my kids like you know. fourth grade class and these [ __ ]. across the way shot our dog they claimed. um he had uh he tried to bite one of the. SF guys and I remember going to the. captain there and we both of us were. like [ __ ] I said first of all you killed. our dog second of all we got a crazy.

person. back at our base. um who was a former sniper for Dev group. who's now going to come after your guys. and he's like seriously for killing the. dog he's like yep he loves animals you. guys are in deep [ __ ] and he's like what. are we gonna do. it's crazy stuff like that yeah so I've. been uh yeah I've seen that happen many. times cats dogs. curly the dog. but um let's take a quick break when we. come back let's get into. Moscow and Havana sure absolutely.

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your service in Moscow now right right. before you got Havana syndrome sure what. were you doing over there. so you know after after all my times. running counterterrorism operations I. think you know this was in about. 2015 or so. um the the DDO the deputy director of. operations are kind of the lead head spy. at CI called me up and said you know. enough here. enough enough counterterrorism work. um uh and we need you to get back to. doing some kind of more traditional.

um uh uh. uh kind of headquarters management. um assignments for for I can't remember. why for one reason around there probably. my kids I I you know I I was I was gonna. stay in the DC area for a bit so uh. moose kind of moving up the ranks and so. first I was the deputy Ops chief for the. whole Middle East and then. um I became the deputy operations chief. for what we call Europe and Eurasia. um which is overseeing about I don't. know 50 or so countries from you know. from Ireland to the you know the most. what Eastern Time Zone in in Russia.

um uh and it was kind of interesting and. so I I was I was promoted to the senior. intelligence service which is kind of a. big deal for you know. um for someone in their credit only four. percent of CI officers kind of Rise that. ranks that's like the general officer. category in the military so you're a. one-star general or Admiral so really. big deal for me I didn't for other. reasons didn't always feel like I. deserved it. um you know great operational successes. some some terrible failures too but I. was promoted and. um I was sent to oversee operations.

essentially across Europe and Eurasia. but really focused on Russia I was not a. Russia expert I'd never been there so I. did what you know even going back to our. first part of our conversation you know. you need some area fam. so I was like I gotta take a trip to. Moscow. um to see what Russia's like and to see. the Ambassador there was a guy by the. name of John Huntsman really you know an. elder Statesman in the in the US. government had been I think it had been. governor of uh of Utah and there was. Ambassador in Beijing and Ambassador in. Moscow but I wanted to get the lay of. the land and also amazingly enough as a.

senior officer I was I was supposed to. meet my Russian counterparts you know. even in the darkest days of the of the. Cold War the the CIA and the KGB would. meet and and to this day we still have. kind of liaison relationship uh which is. just having an open Channel. um and we do this with our adversaries. that's that's okay that's actually. pretty smart to have that that uh the. ability to talk kind of under the table. um so I decided to take a trip uh to uh. to Moscow in December of 2017. um it was 10 days it was actually to. Moscow into St Petersburg.

um and again area fam into and to meet. my my counterparts in the Russian. Security Services and it was obviously a. trip that changed my life I wish I had. never taken it it was the irony is that. after all the kind of craziness I talked. to you about my years in the middle east. and south Asia getting shot at and. rocketed and all the you know stuff you. know escaping. um you know the harm I go on a trip. where I'm wearing a you know a business. suit. staying at a five-star hotel in Moscow. but it changed my life.

what did you so Havana syndrome they've. this is I thought this was in one spot. Cuba right and then we talked right I. found out it was in Russia and it's also. been documented in Germany China England. Austria India Russia Latin America Cuba. United States inside the United States. Philadelphia Washington DC to include. inside the White House grounds so it's a. it's a this is a it's one of these.

stories that's a mystery and I think to. to kind of put this in perspective you. know uh uh because there's no doubt. something happened to me and I'll tell. you what what I faced and kind of the. the initial attack. um because it was pretty awful. um but but keep to put this in. perspective think about you know Agent. Orange. from the Vietnam era think about Gulf. War syndrome from the first Gulf War. think about burn pits you know something. that's really prevalent now in the news. you know Jon Stewart The Comedians has.

been an incredible. um you know uh uh you know support. um for for veterans who have been you. know sickened by the burn pits in. Afghanistan Iraq. um uh and so and that's where this this. lies these are medical Mysteries that. happen to kind of Our National Security. Professionals where eventually you know. people are really harmed by it. eventually we find out what it is so. just kind of keep that in mind but but. look in 2016 in Havana Cuba at the US. Embassy there there was a rash of these. you know kind of mysterious injuries in. which uh U.S Intelligence Officers and.

diplomats. um as well as a Canadian embassy staff. you know heard this kind of high-pitched. sound but really suffered debilitating. injuries um you know one of my. colleagues there a good friend of mine. now and he's he's I mean it's incredible. what's happened to him I mean he's you. know he was subject to an attack like. this and he lost he uh he lost eyesight. he's blind in one eye he walks with a. weighted vest as a service dog this is. someone who is you know serving in. Havana which is tip of the spear stuff.

Cuban intelligence service is no joke. and so you know we're going to send. people there who are at the top of their. game. um but this happened in 2016 and I. really didn't think much of of it there. was always a suspicion obviously the. Cubans were involved but that the. perhaps the Russians were uh were as. well and kind of a big investigation it. went nowhere but we had we had you know. dozens of U.S government officials who. were you know really you know suffered. debilitating injuries some have had to. be medically retired. um and so that's the context when I go.

to Moscow in December 2017 and so you. know I'm at the uh at the uh at a. five-star hotel about two blocks from. the U.S embassy again routine trip. didn't expect anything it was it was I. mean wearing a business suit. um something I had to do to kind of I. thought for my credibility as a senior. operations manager at our headquarters. overseeing Russia I got to go visit. Russia but I woke up in the middle of. the night with a with and I didn't hear. anything but it was this stunning case. of vertigo. um the room is spinning. um I had terrible tinnitus which is you. know ringing in my ears probably you're.

familiarity with that from kind of. exposures to blasts and and but it was. tinnitus a splitting headache and I was. I was you know felt physically sick but. it was the just this incredible case of. vertigo which was frankly terrifying and. again I told you about all the kind of. the crazy moments in my life before in. my career. um something really had happened. uh by the next morning. um uh I went you know to a farm a. pharmacy with the U.S embassy officer. um it was some kind of medication to. kind of control the vertigo it got a.

little bit better. went to St Petersburg for the night came. back and then I got I suffered another. spell I remember at a Moscow restaurant. and almost passed out but the room's. spinning and then I spent the next 36. hours in my hotel room before I kind of. crawled home but something awful. happened to me and and I was with a. colleague as well. um someone who worked for me traveling. from headquarters. um he was hit by this as well he has. lost a hearing in one of his ears. um and uh and so something awful. happened that time I get back to our. headquarters immediately you know and.

and my condition is actually getting. worse I go to our medical staff. and I said hey something really bad. happened in in uh in Moscow I you know. I'd heard of things like this. um in uh to our to our folks in Nevada. can you just check me out and they kind. of ran through some Havana the protocols. that they developed for for officers who. had been hitting by this this. you know uh unknown ailment in Havana. but they said they didn't see in that. that I I kind of qualify for whatever I. didn't hear anything they were very. focused that I didn't actually hear. anything but my condition was getting.

worse and again this was I was I was in. the senior intelligence service I was. the deputy and then I became the acting. chief of of Europe and Eurasia this is a. this is a job which you know a huge. stepping stone. um to the really most senior ranks but I. couldn't even go to work I mean I was. having debilitating headaches every day. um I at one point by March of 2018 I. lost the ability uh for long distance. Vision I couldn't drive. um I suffered terrible cognitive. difficulties with brain fog and I was I. was [ __ ] up something really bad.

happened and I started going to every. doctor Under the Sun meanwhile I'm. asking the staff at CIA. um and this is this is where kind of my. whole kind of Life journey and story. gets sad I've given you my whole journey. about this incredible career at the. agency with highs and lows but that with. always the underlying assumption about. the camaraderie and kind of the the. greatness of the people there. um so this is where this derails because. I'm going to the medical staff and. they're just totally dismissing me so. I'm off on my own I went to every doctor. Under the Sun whether it's neurologists. infectious disease doctors allergists.

um uh I think I had about six or seven. MRIs no one could figure out what was. going on but I was really suffering and. at that point I was going to work two or. three hours a day. um but it just wasn't getting any better. um and I I was I was going through our. operations directorate pleading for them. to actually send me. um to the University of Pennsylvania. where they had sent some of the Havana. victims and our awesome Medical Services. kept rejecting me and it really you know. it's really this is a this is a really.

terrible tale of of incompetence. um because one of the things for me is. you know as a leader at CIA by this. point again I'm you know I have when I. when I left in that that last job what. I'm telling you about I probably managed. one or two thousand people. um but the whole point as a leader is if. someone's hurting under your command get. them care you don't have to argue with. what happened you know it's just a. fundamental uh a tentative leadership if. something's wrong with someone just get. them help you don't have to argue with. them how it happened. um but they but they you know I was I. was trying to get to University of. Pennsylvania and they kind of rejected.

me. um uh outright and so by July of or by. actually early spring of 2019 when I was. turning 50 I was eligible retire I had. to retire I couldn't go to work anymore. um I remember going into uh you know the. the deputy director of operations the. DDO and and telling her I had to kind of. hang it up and she said will you please. reconsider I want to make you one of the. addos and this is this is the number two. or three. you know uh operations officer in the. entire organization that's what they're. offering me and the only reason why I.

don't say that bragging at all because. as I mentioned before I had a lot of. success and a lot of failures too and I. you know one of the things I haven't. mentioned I think I think the biggest. character trait for an intelligence. officer is to have some humility and I. have a lot of that. um uh uh but you but you know the story. I have now is is I'm not the story of a. disgruntled employee I was I was a. really well regarded officer who again. was offered this incredibly senior job. but I had to retire so in July of 2019 I. kind of call it quits but I'm a mess.

um and uh uh and things actually get. worse so I retire at the very end the. agency agreed to send me the National. Institute of Health so they did relent a. little bit to a research it's a. five-year research study which was. useless they were good folks there. at NIH the world-renowned facility I. remember the the Highlight so it's just. testing it's not designed to make me. feel better and that matters later on. when I end up going to Walter Reed but. one of the things that as I was so. pissed at the end. um and I wasn't getting better and I.

wasn't getting the treatment the agency. said whatever you do when you go to NIH. don't tell them you're coming from CIA. because we want to keep that secret so I. remember going to our uh our store at CI. headquarters and buying about 30 CI golf. balls and the next day handing them out. to all the staff and then nice that was. my victory. so what the [ __ ] you know whatever but. but ultimately I had to retire because. of this. um but that's really where kind of the. medical the kind of the the medical. Journey Begins because my condition.

really worsened. um uh in in retirement and my my. pleadings to the agency you know. formally and informally in retirement to. send me to Walter Reed's traumatic brain. injury Center. um where some some other officers. actually started going to because they'd. been getting so what happened to me in. Moscow started happening as I'm retiring. it's happening in some of my colleagues. also doing Russia operations really. weird and they are starting to get to. Walter Reed because they're they're TBI. centers they actually Walter Reed.

actually believe something bad is. happening so I start asking informally. to get there as well and again the. answer was always no. um and it caused me to take a decision. uh which certainly changed my life. um which is to go public yeah so in. October. um of 2000 um 20. uh I uh uh I I. contacted a journalist named Julie. yaffey who writes for GQ at that time. she's writing for GQ she's a Russia. expert she's a rock star. um and I chose her very clearly and I. had a talk with her I said I want you to.

tell my story but I can't come out. across as a crazy person but I just need. you to tell the story because this story. is designed to get to force the agency. to send me to Walter Reed they're. sending other people there they're. saying no to sending me there and I need. to go public with this and just imagine. Sean the idea of you know someone 26. years at the agency my whole life was in. the shadows I did all this crazy CT [ __ ]. and now I'm actually gonna go and start. which is in essence a public fight with. CIA which is what I did and uh and the. blowback was severe and caused a lot of.

a lot of [ __ ] heartache for me yeah. I mean. there's this seems to be extremely. targeted. it looks in my research everybody. everybody that's kind of come out has. been a government official and I believe. it said. I found half half of the victims have. been CA personnel. one family was hit in China and then hit. again in Philadelphia.

then two different there's two different. reports of um. Personnel being hit on a staircase. outside the White House. and there's only three countries on. record that have. kind of dabbled in microwave weapons U.S. China Russia Russia. well so let me let me say first and. foremost on this on this so there's no. doubts to me that something is happening. um uh and what's interesting is is in is.

so after I went public you know the. reaction was I'll talk about that in a. second because that's more of a personal. story but you know we know the Russians. have this. uh it it is it is an open source. information the Russians have dabbled in. this in this technology and in these. weapons and they've admitted it. um you know as I've as I've come along. you know whether it's when you know in. the Trump Administration or the Biden. Administration people across the aisle. believe this is happening so you know. when I personally sat next to you know. John Bolton former National Security. advisor he said absolutely [ __ ].

lutely because two of his people under. his tutelage under his command were hit. by this. um I had a beer with again Chris Miller. the former you know acting Secretary of. Defense in the Trump Administration. former fifth group guy who I I met you. know years earlier in in Iraq. um and he said absolutely because there. are U.S military members who have been. hit by this who've come back and he met. them. um. uh and then of course just you know in. dealing with kind of the you know with. Bill Burns and kind of the current crop. of National Security officials but. um you know Russia has the expertise in.

this and certainly I would say they they. would have the the intent because it's. taking you know Americans off the off. the playing field but there's there's a. couple stories on this though there's. three bins I put this story in one is. um how the US government has has treated. us so poorly who have come forward on. this and not getting Health Care the. second bin uh so there's an. accountability piece because they. screwed this up. um the second bin is the health care. piece and and they're better at that and. then the last is who's doing it you know. culpability and what does that mean and.

so it and it's all kind of interwoven. and but it's been you know such a such a. you know for the victims of this again. you know I've met these people I I know. these people I've served with them in. the field a whole bunch of them have. done Russian operations in the past so. it's it's pretty suspicious to me that. they're being kind of uh hit right now. um the bad part about it is you know and. and this is why when I when I finally. made it to Walter Reed to the traumatic. brain injury Center I identified so much. with it with the you know with the. whether it's the seals or the Air Force.

combat controllers or others who are. going through their own tbis it's the. silent injury nobody believes you yeah. so if you're a team guy and your [ __ ]. head's killing you and and you know and. you're having depression and suicidal. thoughts but nothing looks bad on you. you know if you say I got to take a knee. everyone's gonna look at you a little. weird same thing with this with with. kind of with the what happened with The. Havana syndrome stuff is. I mean I wish I wish I'd been shot. um but in the meantime I have a. splitting headache that never goes away. um you know I have it now it's it's I'm.

I I got some kind of cool new. experimental treatment that's that's. made it a lot better for me but but. ultimately it's that kind of that that. you know that uh you know unseen silent. silent wound and so. um you know it's it's just it it's one. of those things that that that we have. to kind of get to the bottom of because. there are really outstanding U.S. National Security Professionals. um who have done incredible things for. the for the US government who are now. kind of taken off the off the. battlefield and and you know colleagues. of mine have to you know just I I retire.

but they're having to retire as well. um if you talk to CI director Bill Burns. privately he says absolutely this is. happening. um the investigation I don't know you. know I don't know what they're. uncovering or not and I and I and I do. get a sense that there's concerns about. liability within the US government on. this. um uh just because you know the so many. of us you know so ultimately it took me. four years to get to Walter Reed when I. finally got to Walter Reed's Brain. Injury center which you know it's called. Niko the national Intrepid center of. excellence it's the it's the world's. leading Center which has treated.

thousands of of veterans. um after 20 years of of you know. sustained combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. um uh you know they have no doubt that. something has happened to us. um there's kind of unanimity in the kind. of the medical field that you've been. subject to something. um and so the idea that that you know it. took so long for me to get there. you know when you know Bill Burns went. there CI director so did Jake Sullivan. National Security advisor and my doctors. told them.

um you know TBI doesn't get better over. time it took them it took you four years. for Mark to get here that's. unconscionable. and one of the things that was amazing. they also said if you keep doing this. you know if you keep delaying care. you're gonna have a rash of suicides on. your hands yeah of agency officers who. have been subject to this who can't get. care and so they've gotten better at it. um but damn we got to get to the bottom. of this and and you know I mean you ask. the opening the opening question you had. in the whole interview today was about. UFOs like that's not what I want to be. associated with yeah you know so I'm not. I'm not one of those folks with the you. know think there's a tin foil out of my.

wearing a helmet outside of CIA. headquarters are always you know. protesting there this is something real. and serious. um uh uh but you know uh it's not been. handled well and a lot of people have. suffered including myself all the all. the victims that I watch their. interviews all say pretty much the exact. same thing they hear something right the. vertigo traumatic brain injury one male. said that he was in a hotel. and A van pulled up yeah and right after.

the van pulled up he felt it right and. then the van pulled up again I believe. it was the next night. felt it again let me tell you so this is. this is something from your old world so. you know you know it's interesting so. much you can as you as you did your. research you can find out through open. source but maybe two years ago. um. there was a bid for body worn. kind of detectors for uh uh for uh uh. kind of for. um this kind of attack and it was it was. a bit it was from Socom.

they wanted their The Operators to start. wearing these things so that doesn't. happen yeah if people don't think this. is real and so you know again when I. when I talk to when I talk to Chris. Miller when I talk to others I mean it's. this is something that is of of of. serious concern. um you know one of our officers uh let. me let me clarify that a USG officer uh. uh uh official. um was stricken in Hanoi uh hours before. vice president Harris was supposed to. arrive.

um I think it was last year or the year. before that scared the crap out of. everybody. um this officer was is was severely. injured uh uh but what does that say to. me and I think to others there's a. message that even our VIPs. um are vulnerable and uh and again I. think the Secret Service is taking this. seriously as anyone in kind of executive. protection because there you know. there's there's you know someone is. doing this to us. um are they 100 sure it's microwaves uh. they're they're not 100 sure of anything. and and I I got to be careful on this.

because I don't know I've been out of. government since 2019 so it's everything. from people inside kind of quietly. telling me to talking to tons of doctors. I mean there's you know there's a. there's a really interesting path. there's they put together an experts. panel the director the dni did uh on. this. um which is really interesting because. they came out with their executive. summary just a couple months ago and. they said yeah this is likely a directed. energy attack. um and I think that you know that's the. that's the the world's leading experts. on this saying that this is happening to.

us this is scary [ __ ] I mean. this goes through glass goes through. walls goes through buildings I'll tell. you everything and what and one of the. things that's happened in some of our. officers and I I know these officers um. there's no doubt on these. um their family members have been. affected and so in one case you know a. young child who has a a permanent. traumatic brain injury diagnosed by. doctors in DC there's no doubt about. this so you know so one of the things. that you see a lot in the in the media. on this is well maybe it's psychosomatic.

you know maybe it's a directed energy. attack. um to the actual uh uh doctors who have. treated us. um there is no doubt it's not if you. were so if you were if you were subject. something is is that you know it is you. were subject to something we're still. not exactly sure what it is it's most. likely a directed energy weapon and. that's pretty [ __ ] scary yeah and. again you know what a weird is for me on. a personal note what a weird way to end. my career yeah and and look I'm still. you know I'm still suffering from this. for sure.

um but after all those years in shitty. places. [ __ ] damn this happens and it's it you. know it's been you know there's a. it's got something more of a personal. level there's a mental health aspect of. this too so you know I finally make it. to to so so I go public in October 2020. on this. um the the. um blowback from you know my best. friends and my colleagues in the agency. was severe you know because I did. something that you're not supposed to do. is uh is is now to their credit three.

former CI directors immediately called. our seventh floor and said what the [ __ ]. and they meet they then kind of you know. uh uh relented and got me into Walter. Reed so I arrived at Walter Reed in. January of 2021 and I'm a mess not only. because the physical pain I'm in with my. headaches and and and occasional bouts. of vertigo but uh some cognitive decline. um but it's also the there's a there's a. moral injury here where I've been. totally shunned by all my colleagues I. had friends calling me or sending me. message on encrypted apps saying we've. been telling we've been told by the.

seventh floor not to speak with you. the Lord and first of all that's. [ __ ] the lawyers are telling us we. can't talk to you well how about what. they can say is don't talk to Mark about. this issue but for [ __ ] sake I worked. for two and a half decades in the field. with them yeah and so and so I arrived. at Walter Reed. um uh you know my mental health was was. all [ __ ] up with anxiety and. everything I mean they were I I heard. they were threatening uh you know come. after me in terms of you know crimes. reports that I was because I've spoken. to the Press now I was very cognizant in.

in not violating my secrecy agreement I. told my medical Story the journalist. Julie yaffe did a huge piece on this. whole thing so I don't even know the. sources she had but you know. um my piece I'm still very comfortable. in that I never violated any part of my. secrecy agreement but but there were. that there were rumors that they were. going to try to come after me and so I. was a freaking mess when I got to Walter. Reed they were like okay you got a bad. headache all the time and you're a. little you know you got some cognitive. decline we're going to try to fix on. this but we hope you don't kill yourself. and that my anxiety level was out of.

control and and that's where they helped. me kind of the most they have 18 people. who kind of swarm over here for a month. um uh and again this old Marine Corps. chaplain was the guy and I joked about. before his when we talked about. um when he talked about you know any. kind of regrets on on kind of the war. zone Duty and and uh and lethal. operations but what he taught me was. forgiveness because I was so angry at. the agency and all my friends. um and and his you know his kind of his. story of just it kind of talking about.

empathy and compassion and forgiveness. was not like. these [ __ ] wronged you and they. always will and you don't ever have to. be friends with them but just just kind. of release the anger against them it's. for you it's for your health yep totally. and then man I I I saw a psychiatrists. psychologists I've had Walter Reed is. famous this this program Niko's famous. and the Special Operations Community has. embraced it I had this incredible kind. of cocktail of of these these. acupuncture treatments it's really. famous for it. um they really know about traumatic and.

by the way I was diagnosed with a. traumatic brain injury so this is the. Walter Reed doctors are like yep Mark. got [ __ ] up by something so I have. that piece of paper I remember when I. first got that man I had tears my eyes. these [ __ ] agency doctors said no for. a couple years and now the world's. leading TBI Center said yep and they. said you got a TBI from an external. exposure event. so that was really groundbreaking but. but back to the uh the the Marine Corps. chaplain those are kind of releasing. that that anger and my anxiety really he. actually saved me I I didn't it wasn't I. didn't do go you know try the.

pharmaceutical option and and you know. uh uh I don't kind of respond well to to. drugs I do respond well to gummy bears. yeah a little something in them which. Walter Reed was totally for but but. ultimately that that Marine Corps. Chapman taught me about forgiveness and. that helped me uh a lot and so now as I. still go there it's still trying to kind. of battle. um just some of the the pain I have um. which kind of flares up uh now and again. there you know the the one of the things. they do is this art Therapy Program it's. famous they're famous for these masks so.

I was on the front cover of National. Geographic I think back in 2015 but. everyone who goes there in the program. and again it's this intensive outpatient. program you're there for 10 hours every. day so I think probably you know half a. Dev group and and Delta has been there. tons of SF I mean just you know there's. there's there's huge walls inside of. Nica where each unit and the CIA has got. a big wall now too from all of the. Havana syndrome victims but it's it's. you know it's the seals it's it's a army. then they have the the ccts and uh from. from Air Force and.

you design a mask and it's just mask and. you paint it you put you know it's it's. a creation of art but it's how you. express yourself and uh and I'm not an. artist at all but it was what I did it. was was kind of this cathartic. experience for me where I where I took a. mask and I painted Superman on it. because that's what I I thought my kids. thought of me you know here I was the. guy the dad who was gone all the time. which sucked but I was defending them. and defending America and and my kids. were proud of me but it was it was. Superman mask and then in it was a an. ice pick.

um which signified my headaches and then. I overlaid this mask. um on top of a piece of wood which I. carved the CIA sill CI seal which was. cracked in half because that was the. Betrayal of the organization and it's. it's hanging in Niko right now and I. just talked to the art therapist she. said everybody comes and sees that. that's kind of the signature piece for. the CIA portion for the Havana syndrome. victims but again it's Bill Burns has. seen it Jake Sullivan the National. Security advisor saw it it's important. they see this because this is the way. we've been we've been treated but making. that mask has been really you know. cathartic but it's you know again it's.

it's the idea of you know people that I. that I serve with for years and years. really abandoned me it was really sad. and it to me to this day. you know I you know I think anyone who. goes public. decides in our old world to be out in. the media or do something like this. probably has experience with that I. don't know if you feel that same way oh. yeah some of your your guests too I I. obviously watched Rob O'Neill's um uh. interview which was fantastic but really. interesting piece who you asked him. um you know about about what he thought. about if people didn't you know kind of.

uh you know weren't so positive about. him going. um uh and talking about his role in the. bin Laden raid and he said yeah it. doesn't bother me anymore there's. something that and because of it because. it does matter to to all of us because. we're a member of this kind of elite. fraternity and and you know when you. when you get ostracized by that it can. be pretty painful. yeah it sucks you know moving away from. it though it's it's it's like. because yeah I've dealt with it a lot.

and and once you've moved past it it's. just like. freedom I agree with you it really is. you know and but it's but there's a. process in that yeah. um and it's not easy and what's. interesting to me is as I. as as. I have been vocal about. um this issue and then that ultimately. Congress passes legislation it's called. The Havana act which is going to provide. compensation for not necessarily people. like me I don't care I'm I'm senior and. I'm fine financially but what about the.

gs11 or gs12 who's medically retired. um you know and so so there's going to. be some some liability from the US. government and so so it's and you know. President signed this it's I mean I sat. you know I keep saying we're not talking. about politics we won't but I sat in a. room with Devin Nunes and Adam Schiff. who hate each other you know this is. they were on there this is the the the. ranking minority and majority member of. the House permanent select committee on. intelligence they hate each other on. every issue except this one where they. totally agree president signs the law.

there's you know there's going to be. some Financial relief for folks. um. uh and so all of a sudden people from. the agency you know who abandoned me for. a long time are calling me again. um and I've had to kind of process that. but I go back to what that Marine Corps. chaplain said just you know uh I'm. polite to everyone but I I won't forget. the people who abandoned me and and. ultimately you're right because as what. I've tried to do and I you know I wrote. a book on leadership. that that you know I I I do a lot of. kind of leadership talks to sports teams.

now. am I you know baseball is a passion so I. talked to a lot of high school and. college uh uh baseball teams the more I. get away from. you know uh you know my old world. probably the better. um because that that was that was a that. the end was really unhealthy both. physically but also also mentally too. and and again you're sitting you talk. about like you know scratch your head. you're sitting having a I'm not supposed. to but if I have a scotch or two. um like you know what did I do the last. 30 years and there's a lot of good a lot. of bad it ended really in a shitty.

Manner and you know I'm 53 years old now. or turning 53 soon there's got to be. another kind of chapter in my in my. journey I got I got some time left I. hope before we go into that chapter yeah. let's just rewind a little bit so. knowing that the U.S China and Russia. are the only three people or the only. three excuse me governments that have. come out and said that they've dabbled. and and microwaved weapons I mean you. have to have sat at home and thought. about. who is responsible who targeted you.

because it's very obvious they're. targeting specific individuals right. [Music]. you know as a as a CI officer I spent a. lot of time in the Middle East and and. the Russians knew who I who I was always. um when I was interesting when I went to. Moscow um they didn't want me to to make. the trip. um the Russian Embassy in uh in DC uh. try to cancel the trip they said they. accused me of trying to come for an. operational. matter I'm like I'm I'm a freaking.

senior intelligence Service Officer. known to half the planet I'm coming in. you know coming here to meet with your. officials there's no operational reason. for my trip but they but I don't think. they like me very much but it was to me. as they had my thought on this is the. Russians have targeted CI officials who. have been involved in Russian operations. because it's part of their hybrid. Warfare strategy I mean if you look at. and China does this too but it's these. are this is you know this is a step. below kinetic events and so. um if they're able to take you know some. of our most experienced officers uh you.

know uh off the battlefield. um in a non-attributable way it's. perfect yeah and so it makes sense to me. it also makes sense you know obviously. Vladimir Putin is someone of you know. zero morals or ethics. um it's right along with his his you. know uh you know war crimes and. atrocities and assassinations that that. Russians have you know uh uh the Russian. state has committed over the last you. know decade plus. um but it but it does make some sense uh. and again it's part of their hybrid. Warfare strategy and ultimately. um it's been successful because not only.

has it really uh uh taken. um you know really quality Intelligence. Officers uh you know out of the. intelligence game it's also caused this. huge kind of dissension I mean thinking. so when you say Havana syndrome some. people roll their eyes some people don't. believe this. um it's it's it this is exactly what the. Russians want yeah um it's to kind of. cause chaos. um so it's so in my view it's been. wildly successful uh uh but that's why. we got to find out who's doing this and. you know know my contention and I and. I've again I was heartened to see you.

know um. I think it was Senator Collins who's. been a big Advocate is there's there's. certain representatives and Senators who. are really good on this across the. political spectrum because they have. constituents who have been affected by. this so if you know for Senator Collins. there's there's CIO officers who you. know who are. um you know from her State and just like. you know you have you know Marco Rubio. um uh has been has been a huge proponent. of of really pushing the US government. on this. um because obviously he cares a lot. about about Cuba so. um but Senator Collins said said look we.

have to get to the bottom of this. because this is a this is a uh uh in. essence a war crime. uh or she said it's an act of War not a. war crime excuse me she said it's an act. of war against our personnel and she's. right do you think there's any. possibility that could have come from. within. no no no I don't. um uh you know that that that I I don't. I I don't you know for. um. just just to me there's there's been I. got to say this carefully I'm gonna. quote the GQ article and so I stay safe.

on this. um there was a there has been uh. investigations by the U.S intelligence. community and again this is this is from. the article in GQ and it's been repeated. other times as well in which there has. been correlation of travel of Russian. Intelligence Officers to the locations. where our officers were hit. no [ __ ] so now that is a pretty damn. strong circumstantial case what does. that mean I would say keep [ __ ]. investigating keep looking at it yeah. um so you know that's that's where. that's where I kind of uh come out on. this and and you know again it took us.

10 years to find Bin Laden. um you know right now with. um with if you remember Gulf War. syndrome from the first Gulf War uh uh I. think they've concluded this is decades. later that it was exposure to sarin gas. it was from U.S military strikes on the. sarin stockpiles that that the Iraqis. had. um is what sickened you know hundreds if. not thousands of thousands of of of U.S. military personnel it's going to take a. while to find out what this is yeah.

um but I I would be I would be amazed if. it's not the Russians or it also it also. could be a combination of adversary it. could be the Cubans at first it could be. the Russians and the Chinese. um uh uh so that's really where I I come. down on that but just you know I mean. have the have the fortitude to keep. going just because we don't know right. now shouldn't stop us are there any. foreign Intelligence Officers that. you're aware of that have been hit no. that's that's the mystery all been us. it's weird Canadian diplomats Canadians. um yeah but uh but right so so I think. that you know when you talk to the Brits.

there's you know there there's a. question why isn't happening to them I. can't answer that I mean there's there's. there's no you know there's there's a. lot of holes in this yeah um because you. would think that our allies would be hit. by this too. um but again as as I you know when I. when I sit with individuals who have. been struck by this. um they have suffered severe injuries. uh I'm one of the fortunate ones and you. know friends of mine are like Mark you. you seem fine I'm like well compared to. others yeah I have a [ __ ] headache. all the time still. um but but ultimately something really.

bad happened and we got to find out what. it is um just because again it's it's uh. this is one of those one of those total. Mysteries and and I don't want it to be. treated like freaking UFOs you know I. mean it's. um and because sometimes it gets put in. that same bin. um but this is a little bit different. it's a lot different yeah. are you still are you still looking for. ways to to manage the pain or or to. improve sure so so you know again. there's been it's really interesting. there's been an outpouring you know from.

just you know so many people and. um there's a there's a a new therapy. that there that that Havana syndrome. victims are using originally it was. designed for and it still is for. um autistic kids. um it's called mert it's taking a little. it's taking a little magnet and just. kind of they tap it against the side of. your head for whatever reason they. started it was a it was a there's an. incredible company it's there's there's. some former in fact uh uh slab Brett. slavinski is involved.

um out in uh in California that has um. that has kind of pioneered this for for. autistic kids but they came to us some. of the Havana syndrome victims and and. offered us some treatment. um so it's uh it's uh for me it was kind. of life-changing it was five weeks there. was an anonymous donor don't know who it. was. um it's [ __ ] expensive. um but but some great Americans decided. to try to help us and it's changed my. life in the sense of my headaches are. drastically diminished uh and it makes. some sense and so you know and I went to. Walter Reed after that and I said what. do you think of this it's called TMS.

treatment but it's uh but again it's. it's usually designed for artistic. patients or for um or for pts but they. want to use it for Havana syndrome. victims and the Walter Reed doctors who. are pretty amazingly enough for the. military they're pretty kind of new age. in their thinking I mean these Walter. Reed is they're pioneering use of. psychedelics and all sorts of stuff. which I freaking love I think you talk. about this a lot too I was gonna ask. that are you have you looked into. psychedelics that's you know I got I got. I I am interested I got to see how I'm. doing. um but ultimately uh Walter Reed was.

like yeah that makes sense what's uh you. know because it's all about your it's. all about your your it's your brain. waves. um you know there's you know so. something has happened to our brains. with this thing yeah I did that I did. that treatment you did and um a lot of. the people that have been on the show. have done that treatment and everybody. is having these profound results yep I'd. love to connect you yeah you know for. sure I am trust me because you know. there's been a lot of suffering involved. and so I have my good days and bad days.

I'm on a good day right here probably. because I'm enjoying the good the good. life in Nashville good food here yeah um. but but there's still some shitty times. and uh and again it's you know when you. get to a point where you'll try anything. and the last thing you know uh you know. the the what is it is interesting to me. seeing how much I've suffered I mean. I've had I've been in pain for four. years and I know that you can relate to. that and people in in the in the Special. Operations Community just after two. decades of war and all the the trauma. that people have faced but you know the.

easiest thing to do is um it's not even. hitting the bottle. um because having a drink will help but. but it's it's good that I'm I could I. can see how people get addicted to. opioids now because you're sitting. around you're in pain all the time yeah. and you you will do anything to get rid. of that pain now I don't have that. addictive personality I guess enough. where that I'm worried about that and. certainly drinking is not great and and. the more I can cut down on that the. better because if I have a bad headache. you have a scotch or two you feel better. but that's not a healthy or the right. answer.

um but I'm always looking for new for. new things to do because again it's just. kind of this lifelong. um search of how to I would not be in. pain all the time well you know I'm. going to connect you then you know it's. I did it and it changed yeah my whole. life it's the most profound experience. I've ever well please do you know Sean. one of the interesting things is so I so. I I go to Niko I go to if I go to the to. Walter Reed and after that time half a.

dozen folks that I really good friends. of mine from your old community. from the from the soft Community came. out and these are folks from from Dev. group or from Delta or or from the white. seals or from Special Forces. um and they all said they'd been there. too they just hadn't talked about it and. so you know there is it it was this was. it was a really amazing experience for. me. um not only because they they know they. care about you and they try to help you. but also for I mean this is two decades. and I'm a little different because the. Havana syndrome stuff there's a whole.

cohort of of us being treated there but. just to see what the last two decades. have done. to to men and women. um in the intelligence Special. Operations world it's extraordinary and. these are you know the toughest people. I've ever met in my life and they are in. real bad Straits yeah. um and it's it's sad uh uh but it is it. is it is 100 real and it's it's it's. it's pretty profound because these you. know brain injury is something that. again. in this in these art therapy sessions. I remember uh uh myself and one other.

person he gets more credit than I do. um but it was he painted this giant. black canvas you know something that. would be on here and when it like the. the size of that flag it's all black but. then he he took a can of red paint and. he threw it on there there was kind of. splots of red paint. um and he called it The Gunshot and. everyone was like you know what the hell. is that he's like I wish I was shot. this signifies because you know brain. injuries. don't show up on anything sometimes on. MRIs sometimes they do sometimes they. don't yeah um but he goes I wish I was.

shot because ultimately then people. would believe me they know how to treat. me. um so it's pretty scary it's humiliating. yeah totally but I tell you but but. being again I was you know being with. the uh with uh some of the seals and and. uh and the ccts and these are these are. tough son of a [ __ ] and they were. they were wonderful kind of part of the. cohort to go through. um uh but just you know and I mean this. is gonna sound not to see them. vulnerable but just to see that other. people are suffering is actually really. important. yeah um uh and you know it's it's and so.

you know uh the the last I'm gonna I'm. gonna throw my last plug into this. charity that I'm doing can I can I talk. about sound off yeah let's uh all right. let's take a quick break all right sure. and then we'll come back and we'll talk. about that cool. all right so we're back from the break. we're gonna just talk about what you got. going on now you got the book Clarity. and crisis and sound off the non-profit.

that you're involved in so let's let's. start with the book so this this. hopefully is kind of the not not when we. say the positive part of the story but. you know I just been talking about kind. of some of the troubles I had with with. you know my health with physical and. mental so you know there's always you. know hopefully the end of the journey is. a is is a good part of one's life and so. you know when I retired I decided to. write a book on leadership and that's. it's Clarity and crisis right here and. it was what I had realized was that you. know in my career at the agency I. started you know so great leaders are.

not are not born they're made and CI. does really shitty job in leadership. training the military is great at it you. know if you if you're gonna if you're an. officer in the military. um You're Gonna Go probably two entire. years at two separate leadership schools. CI doesn't do that at all. um we go through you know a week or two. of leadership training and and also your. job as a case officer when you're. working alone has nothing to do with. when all of a sudden you got to lead 20. or 30 or 40 men or women in a station. um so but but by the end of my career.

probably based a lot on the war zone. time I developed some leadership. principles. um and I was always thinking about this. and uh and and again I was I was I was. considered uh you know no one's ever. going to say hey Mark you know you're a. great Arabic language linguist because I. wasn't my Arabic was always crappy. um and I told you before about you know. in my recruiting and handling agents I. was really good at recruiting and. handling and I could never turn them. over well because I you know I always. always fall in love with my with the. agents and so I I had my my kind of uh. uh certainly kinks in my armor but I was. always considered a really good leader. at the end of my career and I was trying.

to figure out why and it was and it was. just it was based on a lot of experience. and so I came up with kind of these kind. of core principles. um and I put them down on paper along. with just a little bit about myself and. about about explaining what CIA does. because you know I you know I think that. I believe strongly in my heart CI is an. indispensable Institution for the United. States government and so people have to. understand that whatever you think about. alleged abuses in the past or anything. like that doesn't matter because the. country has to have a a functioning and. proficient intelligence service and so.

it is one of those kind of fundamental. things that we have to get right. um and so I like talking about you know. uh uh just the agency in the. intelligence community and then and then. leadership principles which are which. which serve me really well and it served. me in times of Crisis you know it's. obviously called Clarity and crisis but. it's the idea of you know how do you. lead in times you know that are what is. it it's in the gray you know you want to. raise your hand and say send me when the. [ __ ] has hit the fan but but at times. like this I found at the end of my. career when I got really good I was. really comfortable and so you know it's.

a lack of situational awareness you know. comms are down and the ISR is not. working. um you know you've lost attack with some. team members whatever it is but you're. like we got this because you know I I. formed a team over the last several. months that was really strong in terms. of its values together that a train. really were together that got down the. processes that were right so I put it on. paper wrote a book on it and it turns. out it's been really fun because it yeah. it's I think it's applicable in all. walks of life but particularly in the. sports world I mean I'm a baseball nut.

my son's playing college baseball now. and so. I love going around talking to different. baseball teams you know particularly. college teams. um because again it's you know how do. you react as a team if you're down you. know 3-1 in the seventh inning in a. playoff game. um you know what have you done to get. there. um and so and and then and then kind of. the other big group I group I deal with. and talk with are cops. um no not not just first but really with. police officers. um I've been going back and forth the. Philadelphia Police Department teaching. them principles from this book. um because again policing what is it. it's an indispensable institution that.

is much maligned all the time we have to. have a you know uh uh you know a. functioning. um uh a law enforcement Community. um you know failures are thrown all over. the front page of every paper just like. the CIA but successes are never seen and. and and you know morale is down a lot of. these you know police departments and so. um you know going and talking to them. about leadership principles on how to. lead Under Fire and how to have that. kind of intestinal fortitude. um you know one of my one of the. principles in the book which I love and.

it gets in trouble when I talk to sports. team I call it adversity is the perform. performance enhancing drug to success. and it's not complicated but it's the. idea of you know you got to hit rock. bottom for an elite team to then really. perform well. um uh in the future and you know I mean. I always joke around like you know what. happened to Michael Jordan as a. sophomore in high school he was cut from. his basketball team did he quit no I. mean the really simple principles like. this but but and because this is what. happened with me is is going through a. lot of adversity in my career but then. being able to kind of learn from that. um. do you do you find that you're looking.

back because it sounds like you you kind. of Revisited your entire career right in. that book yeah did you find that. do you feel like you're a stronger. leader in times of crisis. than you are on every day oh yeah. totally why do you think that is um uh. you know get more narrowly focused. um you kind of you zero in. uh on on what's important. um and and it's also just the idea of. just building these two so so it's it's. building the correct type of team that.

can then you know uh thrive in that. environment and so so again you know. what I what I talk about in the book is. you know identify processes I call it. the process monkey one of the leadership. principles identify key processes that. your team needs to succeed at so when. the [ __ ] hits the fan you're gonna. you're gonna feel as a leader my guys. and gals got this so what is it you know. if you're if you're a CI case officer. it's running a surveillance detection. route. or if you're Navy still you gotta be. able to shoot I mean so you know if. you're a baseball team you better have. taken batting practice. um or you better hit the weights all in.

the off season so when times are really. tough you're like my guys and gals got. this what's interesting to me that. sounds really simple and basic right so. we're talking about mastering. fundamentals yeah fundamentals. um so but you go and you talk to you. know when I say you know the regular. World. um people don't people not only do they. not do that they haven't even identified. those so I'll go to a client let's say. and I say what are the five fundamentals. and they're saying well I'm not really. sure what are the five things you have. to be able to do so when covet hits.

and the economies and tatters and you've. got to lay people like and and you're. like you're you're in a state of near. Panic actually maybe you step back and. say you know we've done a couple things. right we're gonna be fine. um. so so that's why I've had so much fun. with this book. um uh you know one of the other. principles I talk about is Family Values. it sounds kind of silly and and. um and basic but it's it's building that. teamwork that camaraderie. um where you know that everything you've. done. um that you know the men and women you. have under your command you know I I use.

the word love a lot it's not really love. but it's that just have that you know. the absolute loyalty to each other and. that to me was always was absolutely. critical so so again it's the idea of of. leading in times of Crisis it's been a. blast doing that I love talking about. I've I've talked to so many different. groups I go talk to Google loves to have. me go talk to their their folks. um but then then the I live in Northern. Virginia Fairfax County public teachers. had a conference they said can you come. talk to us on this I'm like well [ __ ]. there's a lot of stuff about like. killing people in there so I'll sanitize.

that part they're like no just give us. everything really so and they freaking. loved it because you know one of the. principles I talk about is the glue guy. so so again in every high performance. team you have blue guys are not your. Superstars these are the people that. that are fundamental to success. um so I so I went to the teachers uh. conference I said all right so you have. your you know you have all your teachers. your administrations who's your glue guy. someone raised their hand they said it's. the I.T administrator I'm like. spot on. if you if your computers aren't working. nothing's happening but the the key the.

key part of this I said so so in your. successes celebrate them and your. planning also include them in your. planning because I learned that at CIA. as well so perfect thing it's a CIA. Special Operations intelligence same. thing. if you have a me if we're going to run. an operation. what do we need obviously we need the. case officer the tip of the spear we got. to have. um uh kind of an operational plan but. what do you need how about some. Logistics. how about your Finance guy guess what do. we have enough money to pay for this. damn thing like little stuff like that. and when you have this huge success.

celebrate them all but again it's the. planning part of it too when I was at. the end of my career I remember when I. was you know managing stations or bases. um I used to in the in the beginning uh. when I first was a manager I would say. let's have an Ops meeting every morning. right. Ops meeting would be the case officers. at the end of my career let's have an. Ops meeting every morning chief of. support chief of Finance Chief Logistics. security Chief everybody's there. that's it because because you kind of. get you get it that it takes everybody. to do so these are the principles that I. I really enjoyed talking about so it's.

so it's fun I hope there you know hope. folks kind of kind of pick up the book. it's as I you know as I've gone traveled. throughout the country it's fun when I. go to an airport and I see it there it's. a perfect it's a perfect airplane book. yeah it's 200 Pages you know just just. read that thing and so it's uh it's wild. just seeing that. um but I think it's resonated I'm having. fun doing it and I think it's it's gonna. and and again it's talk about something. as we were talking before about. um. uh kind of mental and physical health. you want to expose yourself write a book.

or do a yeah do a show YouTube uh or a. podcast like man because you can have. some critics and your whole life's out. there you get a lot more respect for. doing it than you do critics yeah you. know it's hard to see because we we folk. especially yeah. people that have come from a background. like yours or myself we've we tend to. focus on because I think a lot of us are. perfectionists right and we focus on. that negative yeah [ __ ] but you what you. don't see is all the positivity that's. around it but it's been fun the response.

has been great so it's it's exciting I. think I'm I'm My Own Worst critic you. know I'm such a type A personality so. I'm like why isn't this number one in. the New York Times bestseller is right. now yeah like after this show I'm. expecting next week no big numbers no. problem no but it's uh but it's it's. been fun but it's you know it's you you. expose yourself man it's raw out there. and just like you know some of your. other guests who you know if you go out. in the media and you talk I don't care. if you're you know you're giving her you. know I remember. um with the Afghan withdrawal I was. super critical of that of of uh and.

because again I thought about all of our. engage Personnel. um uh but not everyone's gonna like what. you guys you're saying in public yeah. and just like you write a book you. expose yourself and then you know then. you're looking like sneak peek on Amazon. reviews like [ __ ] why is it four and a. half Stars yeah who gave me a shitty. review I'm gonna track that person. well I'll link it in the description and. uh and we'll put it on our newsletter as. well and uh spread it across social. media appreciate it but um did when you. wrote it did you have a particular.

audience in mind and then it just. expanded to yeah everyone you know I I. thought when I was when I was first. writing it. um you almost it's weird because first. of all it's a cathartic experience to. write a book. um and I was suffering so this is this. is right when I retired so I had these. terrible headaches and so I wrote for. about two hours every day. um for a couple months uh and then the. editing process is you know kind of. miserable but it it actually it it. turned out fine. um uh but at first you're almost writing. it for our peer group but then something.

clicks and you're like well wait a. second first of all all my friends are. gonna read this and say what the [ __ ]. yeah you know uh uh but then I started. writing it for kind of the lay person. and so I thought about cops and. firefighters my stepbrother is a ER Doc. and I talked to him about this he's like. this is perfect for an emergency room. really yeah because what about nurses. like so who's who are the unsung heroes. in the in the you know are there. processes we have to follow who are the. unsung heroes what about teamwork. camaraderie what about mentoring I mean.

so everything I talk about in this book. um owning mistakes I mean the huge part. of this is about adversity and humility. they say that every day and it works in. New York City it's a New York City. emergency room so I was like well well. that's going to work and then I had a. great great feedback from an editor once. and like and this is this is you'll. you'll love this it goes you're gonna. have to write this for a librarian and. I'm like what and they're like yep. that's right librarian's gonna have to. be able to look at this completely. opposite of who you are introverted you. know uh you know buried in the stacks um. and so so I thought of that when I did.

that that you know that that talk with. the with the school teachers in Fairfax. County so the more it resonates with. people totally unlike us. um uh the better and so and again it's. um just kind of universal principles and. and you know fortunately or. unfortunately you know this is this came. out in the time of covid where a lot of. businesses were struggling I'll never. forget this one guy is a he's a CEO of a. Healthcare Company. and one of the principles now I talk. about winning an Oscar which is when you. get up in front you know in a crisis. situation it matters on how you react so.

you got to tell the truth you can be. empathetic. um but but everyone's looking at you you. are the leader and so you know you you. can't fail in that time in that moment. he said he goes you know Mark. um that was incredible to me because I. couldn't make payroll last week. so my our business is cratered under. undercover and I had to get up and. figure out a way to tell the people who. was you know their livelihoods depend on. me I'm the CEO I can't pay them this. week and he goes I thought of you and I. use some of those principles and the. principle is is telling the truth but. also you know not not being um you know.

you know not being false I mean. obviously you know having that having. that that that air of authority. um air of assurance things are going to. be okay. um but you know what we're gonna face. some tough times. um and there's you know because I look. back at my career on on some of the and. I'll never forget no I was in an embassy. in the Middle East I was there was an. attack by Al Qaeda. and um uh the first the first uh wave of. attackers hit us in the front gate of. the embassy with automatic weapons fire. and then a car bomb hit the back game. didn't detonate but me and my I was a.

deputy station Chief and the stage Chief. was there him and I he's a former seal. um uh we've been in Iraq together and. now we're in the Middle East at an. embassy and we looked at each other and. we're like this ain't good our wives. were there but things were looking Grim. there was it was it was a mess with the. the Marine Corps the the the Detachment. there the gunny had just come back from. Iraq he was all [ __ ] up from pts they. [ __ ] collapsed. um the whole com system in the embassy. went down and so you know so the state.

she looked at me he's he's writing a. flash message uh uh to to headquarters. to try to get some assistance too and. I'm trying to open the weapon safe and. I'm sitting there you know it's a. freaking dial yeah and my heart rate. went from zero to about a billion and we. opened the safe I'm handing out weapons. we're putting people in the right places. in the station giving out putting out. you know uh uh having done their body. armor. um and I'm I'm admittedly later later on. I'm [ __ ] terrified I think we're. gonna I'm gonna die today with my wife. and this is [ __ ] shitty way to go uh. uh with these [ __ ] attacking this.

Embassy and the you know the Marine debt. has has fallen apart. um. uh and I got up and I as as I'm trying. to put people in position and kind of. you know and we're going through a full. burn down too we got to burn the station. down we got [ __ ] in there got to get in. the shredder. um afterwards uh when we kind of did the. AAR people said to me Mark that was. awesome you were great I'm like what are. you talking about I was scared out of my. mind. um they said no you actually portrayed a. really sense of calm that that really. reassured us you also said hey you know.

this isn't good we're getting I mean. there's there's you know there's. grenades hitting at the top of the. station and we're getting you know. there's AK-47 fire in the at the front. gate there's some you know there's. um uh really good chances doesn't go. well for us but but you kind of you you. actually reassured us and kind of got us. into place and we did things there's. nothing like you know this bad this bad. shit's happening we're going through a. burn down well that was smart give. people something to do. um but afterwards so I thought about. that after all and that's why I came up. with this this kind of notion of it's.

how you kind of portray yourself in time. of Crisis um is really important so. well how'd you get out of it uh luck the. the car bomb didn't detonate and the. local guards Force killed the attackers. oh [ __ ] don't [ __ ] luck uh you know I. remember uh and and. um I got to be careful on what I say. here and a uh a TDY jsoc operator took. over. security duties that post won. then saved us. we tried to get him a uh uh a big big.

intelligence medal for it but uh State. Department denied it because their guy. said [ __ ] up so much. [ __ ] that was a shitty day but here's a. great again talk about the dedication. and so I go home you know my my kids. were. um about a mile from the embassy um. watching it you know watching smoke. obviously you know and the school this. International School wanted to lockdown. um they think their parents are dead. four or five hours later we reunite go. back home sitting around there I'm like.

all right what are we doing tonight my. kids are upset and crying I'm like let's. order a pizza. get a pizza and I'm like all right guys. gotta go out and my my wife knew it was. coming but my kids looked at me like. what are you talking about like you guys. almost died today I'm like my job no I I. we have to you know go out and start. contacting agents like what the [ __ ]. just happened. that's just what you do yeah. um anyway there's you know that's and so. that there's there's a I think stories. and when I tell stories like that and a. lot of those stories there's great. operational stories in the book just to.

make a point so everyone loves these. stories from the spec ops or Intel world. to just kind of make key points but that. key point was kind of winning an Oscar. that day meaning that you know how you. act in in times of Crisis. um telling the truth but but having kind. of that that kind of feel of authority. is really important it's contagious yeah. it is. and just you know and there's there's. some other other stories there too so. yeah so that's the book so off I am. going around the country talking to. different groups and you know whether. it's School teachers or cops or sports. teams has been fun quite the variety. yeah well let's talk about the.

non-profit yeah so this is something I'm. super passionate and again it goes back. to my time at Walter Reed so so sound. off is a is a non-profit it's based in. San Antonio Texas. um and ultimately it is an app for your. phone which provides Anonymous Mental. Health Care. um for veterans and because and there's. there's kind of two conflicting numbers. both are more awful it's either 17 or 22. veterans every day kill themselves so. veteran suicide is a horrendous issue. um and and this where I I got interested. in this is you know after I went to.

Walter Reed. um for a month and and I learned much. more about this. um but but concurrently I was contacted. by the the CEO of this. um of this of this non-profit and. because his brother-in-law was Bill. Mulder. Bill Mulder was a steel Team Six. operator who in uh after separating from. the Navy in 2017 killed himself this is. his brother-in-law and he's telling me. this story and I'm like I know Bill. moulter Bill Mulder worked for me at CTC. on a rotation so just bizarre weird.

um coincidence but the more I went to. Walter Reed the more I kind of got into. this whole concept of mental health and. the stigma of mental health and so this. this you know non-profit in this app on. a phone. um absolutely you know tackles that. problem because it is a in a way. anonymously for a veteran or a frankly. current member. um with a special operations world and. that's who this is targeting right now. um to get care that they need because. the stigma and in talking to Sydney. Mulder who's Bill's Widow and I've. gotten to know the family really well is.

uh it's it's incredible I mean she you. know she had conversations with with. Bill who who literally said if I if I. tell people what I'm going through you. know I'll lose my status I'll lose you. know I you know I mean his life was as. an operator. um he was a badass but he goes I you. know if I actually tell people what I'm. going through and the kind of the demons. that I'm going through now I'm going to. be taken offline and so there's there's. that stigma and so this you know this is. this is not you know the VA hotline. this is for people who don't want to go. that route but who need to get that care.

and it's the response has been. unbelievable so right now we have uh so. I'm on the boards I don't get paid. anything for this I'm obviously. passionate about it because of my own. mental health struggles. um but uh but uh at this point every uh. Special Operations Foundation. um from you know from uh the Navy SEAL. Foundation. um to the unit Foundation which is from. Delta to across the board Green Berets. um uh you know tf-160 uh uh Aviation.

everybody is signed on to this. um and and it's it's and and the mou is. is is that they are spreading the word. um to their uh to their personnel. um and and so you know our my job now is. to kind of to talk about this and. frankly to raise money for it it costs I. mean you know to run to run something. like this just the the just the the. processes and the engineering is is you. know one to two million a year and so. um doing a whole bunch of fundraisers. you know across the country for it but. the responses has been astounding and so. you know yet not only is not only is uh.

the Navy SEAL Foundation endorses nsw. has you know the uh as well and so you. know I just got a note that you know. um people are saying that there's it's. all you know out in Coronado there's. stuff all over the walls of. um uh of kind of the buildings there and. so that's what you know you want to see. um down at Fort Bragg as well and so um. it's been huge that's amazing it's just. it just it for it just really resonated. with me. um we're gonna the agency is is slowly. getting on board no [ __ ] slowly hasn't. been easy. um there's some agency officers who have.

reached out and are using it anyhow. um which is critical uh uh and and we. just we you know the the US Coast Guard. just came to us and said can we play wow. um uh and then and then the the uh the. police the first responder Community. both you know police and you know. firefighter paramedics I mean there's it. because it's the it's the the idea of. getting Anonymous care there's so much. so many resources out there for folks. who will do it overtly but it's it's the. ones who and by the way this is not a. Suicide Prevention Hotline it's someone.

who's who's obviously uh you know. because if you're there that's that's a. whole different scenario this is someone. who's having some trouble right now and. just wants to talk to a mental health. care provider in an anonymous fashion. and so I just believe in this deeply I. don't make a penny off of it. um it's you know but I've become pretty. passionate and it's all goes back to. that just weird Confluence of of you. know Bill Mulder worked for me yeah. that's yeah and I remember and in. talking to his widow Sydney who again is. a is a hero in this with her kids and. she's and she she asked me she said what.

was Bill like so you know what do I say. do I tell her the truth or not because. when Bill was uh on rotation us at CI he. was a son of a [ __ ] because you know. why because he was really struggling. yeah and I told her the truth I said you. know I think we had some problems with. them and she said it makes sense because. he was going some really dark times. there yeah and and you know there's the. the story of this is so horrific in that. um it was over a uh a video call. um that he killed himself in front of. his wife. so you know it's it's soul-crushing when.

you hear this. um and Sydney has really dedicated her. life too to really helping just again. it's raising you know uh money and funds. and awareness and. um you know uh uh just like you know. last week I got a call from the. Philadelphia Police Department the cop. there committed suicide and. um you know with I gotta the the. different uh well your audience will. know you know there's. um I think last year two TF orange uh. operatives killed themselves and and. there's a a a former uh Dev group. operator who I think a month ago did so.

this is this is a terrible problem yeah. and again and I get it because I was at. Walter Reed and I saw how people were. suffering and and I have friends from. the community who who you know would. call me and say they were in really dark. two you know they're one former Dev. group operator and one former uh uh uh. Delta. um operator told me if they hadn't gone. to Walter Reed they wouldn't be here. yeah and so just put it all together. sound off really helps and so that's why. you know that's why this is what a. perfect you know audience that you have.

um I'm not asking for money raising. funds I'm asking to spread the word yeah. if you're a veteran they're you know. from the spec ops Community there is a. there is a outlet for you to talk to. someone and that just is huge yeah we'll. link that below as well appreciate it. thanks but um yeah thank you for sharing. all that yeah and uh thank you for. coming down to Nashville and and I just. wish you the best of luck thanks. appreciate it great chat today Sean. thanks for having me thanks. [Music].

foreign. [Music].