Marat Gabidullin - Wagner Group Commander / Russian Mercenary | SRS #195

This is my first ever interview with an. enemy combatant, a commander from. Russia's. infamous Vagner. Group. It's a little bit of a language. barrier with this one. So bear with us. cuz there is some very interesting. information in this episode. And if you. can bear with the language barrier, I. think you're going to get a lot out of. this and learn a lot about Vagner Group, how they came about, their. training, and the caliber of men that.

they had working there. Enjoy the. [Music]. show. Morat Gabulan, welcome to the. show. Thank you. It's nice to meet you, John. Thank you for being here. wanted. to bring you on here to uh to fill in a. couple of gaps with the language. barrier. Sure. Barack Gabulan, born in. Eurol, you grew up in Usuzbekiststan and.

joined the Soviet military in. 1984. Served as a paratrooper officer. and commanded a recon company, then. joined Russia's Vagner Group, starting. as a grunt fighting ISIS in Syria and. rising all the way to commander. You. worked closely with Vagner boss Pragoian. advising the ISIS hunters in Syria and. fought in the battle of Kasham in 2018. against US and Kurdish forces. You then. quit Vagner in 2019, authored a book.

about your time with Vagner and since. then you have moved to France where. you're now seeking asylum. This. interview is taking place in Paris. Um, obviously we couldn't get you to the US, so we came here to to meet you. Feels. really weird for me to say this, but you. are you are an enemy combatant and. um you fought in in a skirmish in Syria. and against 40 US. soldiers, special forces soldiers, and.

I'm friends with a couple of those guys. and heard their account uh of that. battle. and then uh we ran into your. your friend John Lechner and um asked to. be connected with you. So I just want to. thank John, a freelance journalist, writer and researcher who's been in. conflict zones across the globe. Author. of the book Death is Our Business: Russian mercenaries and the new era of. private warfare. Expert on Russia's. moves in Africa, their Foreign Policy.

and Private Military Companies. So thank. you again for being here. But thanks for. having me. I wanted to I want to dive in. on a little bit of the history of Vagner. Group. Yeah. And so how how did it how. did it start? Well, so as Morat was. telling you, Vagner really began in in 2014 and Morat. as he was saying he he joined the. company as they call it. They only on. the inside call it the company. Vagner. Group itself as an entity never existed.

It was sort of just a nickname uh that. that was given to it. Some of my uh. friends told me that in Russia emerged. the some kind of structure uh where I. can start. uh my life from the very beginning. Vagner initially came out of uh the war. in eastern Ukraine and uh its founder.

was a guy prior who who Morat has. mentioned a couple of times. This is a. guy who. uh was born in uh the 60s and in the. Soviet Union and sort of grew up on the. wrong side of the tracks. He he was a a. petty thief and kind of a small time. gangster uh in his teenage years and he. uh goes away to prison uh at the age of. 18 if I remember correctly uh for.

assault and robbery. He and his gang. were uh on a street in Lenningrad which. became St. Petersburg. Uh and they forgo. came up behind a woman and and strangled. her uh until she almost died and then. they they robbed her and he was caught. and sent away for for nine years and and. when he gets out the Soviet Union is. collapsing around him and he returns to. his native St. Petersburg where uh first. he falls in with some gangsters again in.

the in in the '9s which Marott had kind. of alluded to uh previously with these. various crime bosses and things and so. he falls in with some crime bosses. himself uh and they set him up as a. manager of some grocery chain uh grocery. store chains. Uh he eventually turns. that into becoming a restaurant tour of. uh some very kind fancy restaurants in. St. Petersburg that a younger Vladimir. Putin enjoyed and he leveraged uh those. relationships to eventually get getting.

the job of providing meals uh to the. whole Russian military and the Russian. school system. So he became close with. Putin through his restaurant tours. Well, as you'll see kind of as as we go. through the story, he he he manages to. connect with Putin. Putin likes him, but. he's never able. He would always say. that he was about one handshake away. from Putin. And so Putin gets to know. him. He he kind of likes him because. he's uncou. He he he he's kind of has.

that sort of rough kind of attitude. which is somewhat refreshing given kind. of the bureaucratic uh elite that are. surrounding Putin. And so Prosian. eventually gets uh this job to provide. the meals for the Russian military. Um, and so that that takes us to around. 2014 or so when. uh well, we have to go back a little bit.

uh a little bit further. So, you know, while he's doing this work as a. contractor, he he also is looking for. different ways that he can look good and. get on Putin's radar. One of the ways he. does it is there were massive protests. against Putin's return to the presidency. in 2012. Uh and and so Bogosian puts together. this kind of documentary that that shows. how all the protesters are fake, basically supported by the West. And you. know, he finances it himself. It's not.

like Putin is doing this, but it's a way. to to virtue signal and show, hey, you. know, I'm furthering the cause of, you. know, Putin's cause and and Russia's. cause more broadly. And so, as I said, Putin is coming to. the presidency again in 2012. There are. massive destabil destabilizing protests. against. it. And he navigates it and and and gets. back into power. But pretty much fairly.

quickly thereafter, another revolution. is happening. This time on Russia's. border in Ukraine, what became the. Maidon revolution in late 2013. And for Putin, he he sees these two. things as connected, right? It's it it's. the West basically trying uh to. overthrow Russia, overthrow his own. regime, and they're doing it wherever. they can. And so the Kremlin in early. 2014 makes a decision to annex Crimea, which is a peninsula on the Black Sea.

that is uh part of Ukraine. It had. beforehand been part of Russia uh during. the Soviet period, but it it went to. Ukraine during the Soviet Union and. Russia's Black Sea fleet is there. This. is the only warm water port that they. have and it's it's important. And so. amidst all this chaos, the uh the. Kremlin decides to annex Crimea. They. use special forces to do it, but then. they also rely on these kind of like.

right-wing Russian nationalist. chauvinists uh kind of the folks in sort. of Russia's own nationalist militant. movement to provide some of the security. on the peninsula for the. annexation. And after its success, the. Kremlin thinks everything's done and. dusted. But kind of. unbeknownst to them at the time or kind. of something that was unexpected was. that amidst this revolution in Ukraine, there's also an anti-Maidon movement.

especially in eastern Ukraine in this. region called Donbos which is. economically and culturally closer to. Russia. And so as Ukrainians are taking. over government government buildings to. overthrow uh the government of. Yanukovich, anti-Maidon protesters are. taking over these buildings in Donbos. and Dyetsk and in. Luhansk. And this puts uh Putin and the. Kremlin into a difficult situation. because unlike Crimea, they didn't want.

to annex uh eastern Ukraine. Donbos, it's not that important to Russia. But. uh Putin is kind of boosting his. nationalist credentials by annexing. Crimea. Gives a big kind of rally around. the flag effect. And crucially, this is. a rally around the flag from from people. who these nationalists, these Russian. nationalists and and militant guys who. were against Putin's rule in 2012 and. were marching against him. And so he.

can't be seen as hang letting these uh. separatists in eastern Ukraine hang out. to dry. but he doesn't want to risk. further sanctions from the west, international isolation. And so the. Kremlin has to think very quickly like. how do we support but not support these. separatists in eastern Ukraine? and and and this is where Yfghdi. Prigoian the the guy who's providing the. meals uh for the Russian military uh. becomes acquainted with uh another guy.

Dmitri Utkin who is a former uh GRU. officer uh Russian military. intelligence. He fought in Cheschna. uh. he was stationed uh near Estonia and he. had just come back and and almost got in. big trouble for this kind of. misadventure uh with a Russian PMC in. Syria. The these two guys come together. and they sign an. agreement whereby uh Utkin will provide.

the tactical knowledge, provide the men. as contractors and Progoian will provide. the political backing and the financial. support for this mercenary group that is. very closely if not basically as Morat. was saying a ministry of defense. project. Mhm. That they send into. eastern Ukraine. right across the border. to support the separatists. It's. interesting because when I interviewed. Eric Prince, we had spoken about Eric. Prince. earlier. They reached out to Eric Prince.

to try to help build Vagnner Group off. of Blackwater. Did you know that? Uh to tell the truth, I am not completely agree with this. opinion. Firstly, Watner. group has nothing to do with. uh with uh private sector. So what was. the recruitment? How do they recruit. their their fighters? So as Morat was.

saying, I mean it's word of mouth. basically. Um and and I think Morat will. tell you uh later as well the the. initial group of Vagner. uh wi-i which came out of uh this uh PMC. that had the year before gone to Syria. So there before Vagner, there were a. number of kind of what we would think of. as like western style PMC's that had.

popped up. Uh and largely in response to. the Somali piracy crisis, which I'm sure. you remember. Um there there was an. opportunity for these Russian. contractors to to protect Russian ships. that are going through the Gulf of. Aiden. uh a number of Russian. contractors were even working in Iraq. during uh the war on terror as well. the. the issue is that mercenarism is illegal. in Russia technically. And so these. firms would uh basically establish.

themselves in like Hong Kong or you know. the Bahamas or something along those. lines and then the the client would. provide them with the weapons when they. showed up going through a third a third. country to protect the ship or or what. have you. Um, and there was this one. group called Moran Group where uh Dmitri. Utkin after he left uh the service went. to go work for and and one of the. founders of Moran uh got a contract with.

uh with a Syrian oligarch in. 2013 to at least what the guys thought. at the time to to basically protect uh. oil and gas assets uh from ISIS. And. when they showed up, uh it turned out. that the Syrians wanted them to actually. take those assets uh from ISIS. And uh. there was almost like a little mutiny. among the contractors, but you know, they went ahead and they got ambushed. and Dimmitri Udken uh actually got the.

guys out safely during a sandstorm. They. all go back to Russia kind of with their. tail between the legs uh and the FSB, the successor to the KGB, arrests and. charges the the the two commanders who. went to Syria with mercenarism. Lupin, who's like one level below, gets off. along with all the rest of the guys. And. only a couple of months later, all of a. sudden, Russia needs mercenaries. they. know who, you know, is interested in.

this type of work because they almost. arrested the the guy in Syria. And so, uh, those same 50 guys or so formed the. core of what was just then called the. company. And Dimmitri Udken uh who uh is. a fan of uh the German composer uh. Richard Vagner takes his call sign uh. Vagner in in Donbos and since he was the. the main commander eventually it becomes.

kind of the catchall term for uh the. company more more generally. Okay. And. so, so it it sounds like when Morat came. in, it was about 600 people. So when. when Morat first came in in April. 2015, I think it was getting close to. about uh 600 guys. He can correct me uh. if I'm wrong. And and Marat was coming. in.

uh in in April 2015. So this is right. around the time that Russia is actually. trying to. uh sort of get to a ceasefire. uh and and and take over the the these. separatist republics uh at the time. And. so when when Morat joined. uh Vagner was a bit different at the. time. It was one of many different. forces that the MOD was using to support.

these separatists and no one thought. that uh it was going to become what it. became. Mhm. Uh and and so it was one of. several units that were kind of figuring. out ways to bring volunteers in to. support the separatists and and Vagner. at that time had this group of 50 guys. or so who who had who had been in Syria, but they also. uh had had a unit of Serbian volunteers. that were coming through. And so when.

Morat joined uh he he was initially part. of the the international brigade which. was largely Serbian and he had a Serbian. commander. Eventually the Serbs would be. kind of kicked out kicked by the wayside. later on when when when we got to Syria. But uh when when Morat joined. uh it was a few months before some of. the final big battles uh before we saw. what was called the Minsk 2 ceasefire uh.

between Ukraine and the separatist. statelets backed by Russia at the time. Oh good. Oh good. What is it true that. they started recruiting out of the. prisons a conflict situation with a. crime boss? With a crime boss. He's a crime. boss. And. uh what was the situation? Is a criminal. u using any opportunity to.

uh. to to take some money from from. anyone. And this situation emerge on the. empty place. Uh but as a result. uh during uh the during uh one of uh. during the. meeting I shoot him. You shot him? Shot.

him. And I was sentenced to three years. in prison. Where did you shoot him? Where? In the head. Uh, no. In the body. In the body. Body and. then in the. head. I was in prison in Kasnayars in. Siberia. Uh, at the time I served in uh.

Siberia. Uh, our regimen was removed uh. from the Kishov to Siberia. uh after uh Soviet Union collapsed. So they uh the I think Vagner at the. beginning and and I think this what. Morat will tell you was uh for the most. part.

uh guys who had military experience like. Morat. Uh guys who had trouble adjusting. to civilian life in in in some shape or. form and and and wanted to experience. the adventure and camaraderie again. uh. and and largely through word of mouth. were recruited to the company when they. found out there was this opportunity uh. in Ukraine or eventually later on in. Syria uh and elsewhere. And so for the.

most part it was guys coming out of the. military. Maybe they had a brush with. the law like Morat had to to put it. lightly. Um, but the the full convict. recruitment program where pro if you saw. the videos of Progosian going around to. all of the penal colonies and and. recruiting prisoners, that only happened. uh after 2022 for Russia's full-scale. invasion of Ukraine. Okay. So, there. were definitely dudes who had served.

prison time, got out, and then joined. Vagner, but they they weren't recruiting. from from the prisons at that time. It. was really, I mean, if I remember. correctly, Morat's. uh it was Morat's buddy from his. military times who who recruited him uh. just by word of mouth. He said, "Hey, I'm doing this. Do you want to do you. want to join?" What was the what was the. test like? You said you had to take some. type of a test to get into Vodkna Group.

You have to meet the time and uh push up. uh 55 time. 55 push-ups. Push up. A 3. kilometer run. Mhm. Were there any. tactics involved like room. clearance entering a building? Oh, no. No, no, nothing like that. No. What are. these guys getting paid? They I mean I. think it depended, but they usually were. getting about $2,000 a a month during uh.

their time on the contract. Um and so. this is pretty good money uh in in. Russia for for guys. So um it it's. definitely a motivating factor. What. what is it developed into? I mean. they're in Africa. Yeah. They're in. Ukraine. They're aren't they doing. breweries? They're doing all kinds of. stuff. Yeah. What what all are they. involved in? So what what I think is interesting.

about this story because Morat will will. tell you you know this was very much a. stateup supported uh entity but and you. know we can ask Morat as well again I I. also don't think it could have become. what it was if it weren't for the. ambition of its founder Yi Piggoian as. well and and and so uh kind of If we. look at what was happening in Ukraine in. 2015, a lot of those units that the MOD.

was supporting after the ceasefire, they. just kind of, you know, dispersed, went. home, uh, didn't really do much after. But, uh, only a few months later, Russia's overtly intervening in Syria. There's there's nothing covert about it, right? It's a full, you know, air. campaign with the the Russian military. Um and and. Pgojan uh and and and Utkin are very. much also lobbying to make sure that he.

gets his guys into there because he has. now this kind of force at his disposal. Well, and what he's good at is trying to. figure out, okay, I have this now. What. do I do with it? Mhm. And and and it was. at this point where I think he he saw. the black waters of the world and he. said, "Okay, I want to do kind of my. version of this." And it and it so. happened that Syria was going to be the. next opportunity for him to do so. Um. and so uh Morat was one of the first.

guys uh on the ground in Syria. Um as. he'll tell you uh they the mod didn't. really know what to do with them and a. couple of guys got killed uh and and. they didn't want casualties right away. so they panicked and and sent them home. And it was only until it became clear. that Russian air power alone wasn't. going to defeat the the rebels uh rebels. against Assad or or ISIS. Uh that Vagner.

was brought back in this time, you know, on the ground where they they take. Palmira, then they get sent home again, then they get back in and Morat will. tell you all about the battle of Kasham. But it it gets to that point where it's. it's this mix, right? They have state. backing, but Progosian is also out there. with his guys basically doing business. development, right? If you have if you. have a. PMC, where are you going to market your.

services? You have to go to Africa at. some point. Otherwise, you you should. fire your your B and D guy. And and and. so already in. 2017, Progosan is uh sending his guys. out to to drum up new business. They. they first uh signed a contract with the. the Sudin to provide training and they. get access to uh mining concessions in. Sudan. Uh then they show up in the. Central African Republic where there's.

really no other kind of competition from. other Russians. And so Posian is able to. provide training. He offers his uh like. information warfare cuz he has patrol. farms which were kind of very famous in. the US during the 2016 elections. Uh and. his guys go out and they try to start. breweries and they go into gold mining. and and what have you. They act as Morat. was saying very independently of the. Kremlin because the these places aren't.

that important to Russia. And so in the. places that aren't aren't important, he. has to figure out his own ways to. finance interesting these these. operations. And so they go from the. Central African Republic, they're in. Libya back in Haftar in uh in his bid to. take Tripoli in. 2019. Then they show up in Mali, uh. where they they signed a a deal with the. Malian government to to go after uh. various jihadi groups. uh and then. ultimately they.

uh are initially left out of the. full-scale invasion uh of Ukraine in in. February 2022 and only get brought in uh. when when the Russian government's in. trouble. So these guys are not they're. definitely not just in Russia's best. interest. They're doing they're doing. their own thing in all these separate. parts of the world. Yeah. But I think I. think you know. that it's. not because people are always asked, you.

know, is this a private thing or or a. public thing? And the answer is is both. And I mean, we're in Paris right now, but when I'm sitting in Washington DC, I. I try to explain to people like this is. the capital of public private. partnerships, right? Loheed Martin uh is. a profit- driven company. Mhm. They will. frame whatever they're doing as. furthering America's national defense. and security, but they're also a profit. profit driven. And so a lot what.

Pogosian was very good at was selling. back to the Kremlin this dream of kind. of Russia's expansion abroad. Gotcha. And he and he could sell it back to. Putin the these different initiatives. that were also just happened to be, you. know, potentially profitable to him. Interesting. Interesting. All right, let's uh let's. move to Syria.

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americanfinancing.net/srs. All right, Morat, let's go to when you got on the. ground in Syria. first time in uh September in. 2015. I think uh. preion is looking for the opportunity to. implement this uh completely new concept. of the using uh military.

forces and uh he want to demonstrate. uh the ability combatability of the. mercenaries and uh we uh delivered uh to. Sura uh by the scheduled. uh civilian flight uh of.

uh civilian uh to tell the truth uh. military Russian military. uh. firstly look at uh looked at us vis is a. surprise. They don't know didn't know. who we are and uh what we uh to do here. and.

uh uh how they must to treat. us. And. uh we after we received the weapon. uh we take uh. uh take a part in uh several several uh. military action and demonstrated. uh the whole. superiority on the uh uh superiority.

over uh. enemy And uh of course uh the whole. superiority over the Bashar Assad. army. But I think uh uh at that moment. uh Russian military uh and Syrian. military. uh thought that uh. they handle this situation uh without.

us. Uh Russian military thought that if. uh they provided. uh uh Syrian army with strike support. uh Syrian army uh can achieve uh the. victory in this war. But it turned out. uh that uh Suran army. uh. degradated to the point.

of. inability to wage offensive uh action. And so like as Morat is saying when when. Russia first intervenes in Syria, uh one of the reasons that they're doing. it actually it's after the annexation of. Crimea and uh they recognize the. importance of Syria at that time for the. US and for the West because this is if.

you look remember 2015 this is when uh. ISIS is really at its at its height with. the territorial uh caliphate and the US. has already uh intervened, gone back in. to to fight ISIS. And so the Russians. think that uh if we go in backing Assad, we can kind of force the US into a joint. counterterrorism operation against ISIS. that will force them to kind of.

basically start talking to us again. Oh, good. And so they come in and they're. backing Assad. But as Morat's saying, Assad's government, I mean, the the. forces that he has are incredibly. uh unmotivated. I mean, for obvious. reasons given his his rule. And the. rebels, not just ISIS, but all the other. rebels fighting against them are a lot. more motivated. And the Russians. initially wanted it to just be uh an air. campaign. But I mean, as you find out.

pretty quick, like air just air. campaigns alone rarely worked for. anybody. Uh, and it was clear that. Russian air power with Assad's forces on. on the ground were not going to was not. going to work. They were not going to. take the territory back from from. rebels. And so, but they they they they. face an issue at the time, which I think. you speak to as well, where they this is. kind of a farway intervention for Russia.

and they haven't figured out yet if they. want to have actual Russian troops on. the ground and what Russians will think, the Russian public will think if Russian. soldiers are going home in in caskets. and and there's a sense that they're. going to be against this and say why why. are we here in Syria? And so one of the. reasons that Marat and Vagner were able. to get back in is that the Russian.

military didn't have to report. casualties for Vagner. and uh. uh uh using the mercenaries. Is this war. uh to take an uh. to to uh. uh could uh resolve uh the very. uh very main uh uh very difficult uh uh.

task. Uh. uh the thing is that uh Russian uh. generals invented the concept of the war. with a little. bloodshed and using the. mercenaries they can um. create no some kind of uh appearances. that this uh concept is working.

uh lost of the. mercenaries didn't it include in the. official. statistic. Okay, that makes sense. So, so correct me if I'm wrong, but the. whole point of Russia going into Syria. to include Vagner was to build some type. of an alliance with the United States.

Yeah, it was an effort against ISIS. It. was an effort because uh in part there's. always a lot of reasons why why things. happen, but the. the timing of their intervention because. if you remember. uh you know Syria started going into. civil war right around the time of the. Arab Spring. So this is already like 5. years before that. uh the Russians didn't have any. particular love for Assad despite the. fact that there was a Russian base in.

Syria and kind of some history going. back to the Soviet Union. What what. really explains the timing of why they. went in was this sense of isolation that. they felt after the annexation of Crimea. in 2014 in Ukraine. And it was this. effort to basically get themselves onto. the world stage again in a crisis that. they thought was uh existentially. important to the West, which was the the.

defeat of ISIS. Of course, also when. they show up and they're on the ground, Assad also has different ideas for what. he wants the Russians to do. And ISIS is. less of a concern to him than a lot of. the more secular uh rebels uh elsewhere. as well. and that he wants the Russians. to go after those guys, whereas the. Russians want to go try and meet up with. the Americans as they're closing in uh.

on on ISIS as the territorial caliphate. is is kind of crumbling down. Interesting. Interesting. Well, let's. talk about let's talk about the battle. of Kashan between Vagner and US social. forces. So, like I mentioned, I have I. have friends that were in that battle. Um it sounds like there was around. 500 Vagner group. um soldiers on the ground. There were 40.

US special forces guys along with a. couple with uh with a Kurdish partner. force. And so let's just start with the. beginning. What what were you doing that close to. American forces? From the very beginning. uh this uh. factory uh was a very important uh this.

factory enclosed all infrastructure. uh of the oil field nearby. uh around nearby Konaka and Prejan. wanted to cease this factory uh. uh during the battle uh for the deor but. we have no enough uh resources. Uh we.

constantly. uh we forced uh to. uh to attract our forces uh in order to. uh in order to achieve a goal. uh in order to take liberate the zor. uh. our lives uh was very undecisively uh.

acted very undecisively. uh and uh we cannot uh using uh our. forces uh in order to advance forward. H can I put can I put like a little bit. before where so. uh like what was like why did Pgoian. want to take the these Kico facilities?

Mhm. And so in in. 2016, Morat and Vagner, they capture. Palmira from from ISIS and and Morat has. I think some of the medals from that and. from that time period that that they'll. show. But after the capture, the Russian. military sends Vagner home again. Mhm. And and then a few months later, ISIS. recaptures it. Palmira and Vagner comes. back in. But this time, Pgoan has signed.

a deal with Assad's government. Uh, and part of the the deal is is that. Vagner will uh participate in the. counter offensive and Proggoian and and. his companies get a 25% share of the. proceeds of the oil and gas assets that. are. recuperated. And so Pgojan has this. massive incentive now to go out uh. against ISIS and and capture as much of.

those assets as he as he can. And and so. in 2017, Morat uh and and Vagner are are. back in Syria. And this is right around. the time where uh ISIS is collapsing. The US uh is backing the the Kurdish. SDF. The SDF is coming from the. northeast south. They're heading for uh. the ISIS's capital, Raqqa.

and Vagner and Assad forces are heading. north. And at a certain point, there's. this factory that Morad is talking about. called Kanuko, which is sort of the. crown jewel of of all the assets. It's. it's valued in the hundreds of millions. of dollars, and it was at one of ISIS's. like most valuable assets for for fuel. smuggling. must reach. uh uh most profitable uh oil field in.

Sura. So So Pogoan wants this. Mhm. And. he's sending letters too to the Syrian. government saying that they're not. upholding their end of the bargain that. he's spending all of this money on the. offensive and the Syrians aren't paying. him. So he he sees Kico as the way to. kind of get profit get profitability, get get out of the red and into the. black. The only issue is that as ISIS is.

collapsing, everyone is thinking what a. post ISIS world is going to is going to. look like. So the Kurds with the. blessing of of the US start moving away. from Raqqa and heading south towards. their resort and there's a rush for. who's going to get this conicle plant. when ISIS is gone and the SDF the the. Kurdish forces backed by special forces. get there. first and then this is where.

for. Gojan uh make a made a mistake Uh he. thought that he can. uh uh he can uh achieve uh uh his goal. uh. uh as a result in negotiation with the. olders of the Kurdish tribe. But at that.

time. um uh. functioners of the SPS. uh was in charge of the of the whole. thing and oldest uh uh the oldest uh of. of the tribes they like uh. pur uh elders uh uh they uh guarantee uh.

they gave a guarantee that uh Kurdish. forces retreat. uh as soon as we started to move. forward but uh. they just died. uh how many guys how How many guys did. you have gathered to attack Kico at that.

time? I think about 502 units uh karp. and fifth uh assault uh units and uh my. uh my group. uh that consist of suran fighters. uh 75. 75 75 this is this. was only units uh of Surrian that uh.

took part in this action. No one else, only Russian mercenaries and this group. of uh Syrian. fighters. only this I. uh I had to. uh advance uh on the left flank and uh. take over to take over uh two.

stronghold. Uh we advanced on. the start line of. attack. but American prevented us. They. uh. uh strike uh on uh on the second. echelon headquarter.

uh artillery uh. position. Um. uh the ar the armory uh. armory and then uh they uh shift uh the. fire on us. Did you guys fire on them. uh from the sky? Uh, American uses for.

at the beginning American uses only. aviation. Mhm. Uh, had two spectre. gunships and two Apaches. helicopters. Yeah. Uh, oh, combat. uh combat drones. uh. uh. uh. spooky and. uh combat.

helicopter. Um so what what was what was going. through your head when you knew that so. US special operations initiated the. attack? No, no, no. You should what you. should you what you should tell them is. start from uh the the beginning of the. morning because this happened on. February 8th, right? Feb February uh the. night uh the night of February between.

uh 7 and 7 February and and you were in. the. room the day before or a couple of days. before where Utken he comes in and he. says we're going to take this from the. Americans. Yeah. And and someone said, "Are the Americans going to be there?". And he said, "Yeah, yes, I don't know. why, but uh Posh decided that American. uh wanted.

involved and uh that the Americans come. back. Uh the thing is. the preion. uh have uh uh have a one. uh. future character it's like um. personality trait from time to time his. ego his ego ego uh.

uh right uh uh roast above the common. sense. May maybe something that it might. be it might look cool. Um and no one has. done this. before if we get a piece of paper and. Moro can show where the Americans were. and how Vagner came over with the with. the arrows and stuff. That way that way.

people can get. Yeah. No one's done this. before. So, do you want to show you have the the. river Euphrates? Mhm. Then you want to. show where Konico is and then where. Vagner in the US was. Uh. uh. Yafrat. [Music].

Kik we we were completely destroyed. So this is this is our position. This is. your position. Factory. This is Quanico. Yeah. And this is the Kurds in the US. No, the Kurds in the US are in here in. the Quanico facility. This is Vagner's. two positions right here. They're inside. the facility. No, no, no. Facility is. around like this and then they go and. attack that. But the US was inside the. facility. US was inside the facility. So.

you So Vagner initiated an attack. Initiate. It's it's what a planned uh. action. with signs of the false. uh artillery assault from the Kurdish. and you guys you knew that US special. operations were in the factory. Yes, we. know about it. Were you worried? We knew. about it. Don't worry. uh uh our chief.

uh uh our commander uh told us that uh. American wanted involved. they wouldn't get involved. Yeah. uh as I uh already said uh I don't. know why uh but uh Preosian was. convinced that uh American forces.

uh were not involved. Wow. Uh what's. this distance here? What's the distance here? How many. kilometers? uh. uh between. uh my. uh units and uh first stronghold about. uh uh 300 m. 300 m. That's it. We we uh.

moved uh very close uh to this uh uh. position and uh. we we. we have already. uh to. attack but uh uh American. uh prevented us from the any uh but what. you know what you know too is that what.

your buddies will will say who were. there. So the the other key thing is. this is the Euphrates right here. Mhm. And so during this kind. of counter ISIS operation, the Russians. and and and the Americans are trying to. figure out ways that they can deconlict, right? So that no one is actually. shooting each other. You all know what speed dating is,

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between US backed forces in Syria and. Russian backed forces and the line is. pretty much the Euphrates River which is. right here. Mhm. And and that's. established and and so but the issue for. progosion is that the most profitable. oil fields are right across on the other. side of the deconliction line. And so. Morat and and Vagner what they're. doing prior to this is they're building.

up their forces. They're testing a. little bit the line of deconliction. probably. because they cross the river and there's. this one little spot that is still. Russian territory. Uh. and so the the Americans are watching. this on the drones. Mhm. And and they're. seeing the buildup. They see it all day. and and eventually they at in the. evening they they start calling the.

Russians over the deconliction line that. they have between the US and Russian. militaries and they say are these your. guys and the Russian military says no no. they denied it to. the uh Uh he denied to that is not. confirm. Yeah. Confirm. Yeah. What did you initiate the.

assault with? Uh I have uh um. uh well I was supported firstly by the. artillery artillery. So you were hitting Konico with. artillery. What they were first doing. was they were fake they were doing they. were faking artillery training cuz they.

had set themselves up close. Mortal. Yeah. mortars. Mortal artillery. Uh. Americans uh very quickly uh suppressed. the activity of the any kind of. artillery. And I left without any support. I have. a auto uh automatic rifle, machine gun, uh automatic uh grenade launcher.

uh 17 and uh some kind uh uh and two uh. two uh machine gun. uh heavily machine gun. The fifth unit was nothing but against. the Well, the fifth unit had uh tanks, right? There were two tanks. This tank. was. uh on the right side uh from me. Uh I uh.

saw uh the tank only at the last time. uh before. uh before this tank was destroyed. I I heard the uh. shoot. I hear the sound of shooting and. I uh come out uh uh out come out of the.

position and I uh saw it uh our tank and. firstly I decided this is uh good for. me. But immediately after I. uh I. uh glanced on him, he was uh destroyed. by the. rocket and. uh and there was absolutely no and uh.

there was a big uh explosion. [Music]. This tank was completely destroyed. because what was going through your head. when. the Americans retaliated. to save my life? Uh so. uh save uh lives of my.

people. I uh cried to him uh run away. from here. Run away in any way. Run. away. But but only uh small. group only with a small group small. group two three person not uh not. gathering uh. but you wanted to disperse. but it. was in. vain they.

uh unfortunately. uh I. in any way gather it together. Mhm. And. uh fall on the fire from the uh. helicopter and I lost uh 23. uh fighters uh 23 fighters was uh. killed. Were you close with them?

Were you friends with them? It's it's a it was a very little time uh. to uh to become a friendship uh I I was. appointed on this uh position uh two and. a half. week before this uh.

event 23 dead 28 wounded. Is that correct? In his unit only. In. your unit. Yeah. I mean, I think the thing that is also. kind of important for people. to realize is, you know, it's it's. getting towards the. evening and and and Vagner, they're. feigning drills and then they attack, right? And uh the US is calling and they call.

three times over the deconliction line. to the Russian Ministry of Defense and. they say are these your guys and three. times the Ministry of Defense says no. and so as you know and and your buddies. know uh that's when uh the US had the. green light to effectively defend. themselves against this attack. And uh I think it's fair to say that uh. the uh the US uh defended itself in a.

way that would send a. message as well. And I and the amount of. air power that that came. in was. uh probably disproportionate to the. threat and designed to to send a message. because I mean the the amount of of I. think I think Americans uh didn't care. of.

uh didn't care of uh of the um. uh facility of the uh Russian army. I. really didn't care. They they uh they. was ready to. uh to strike in any case. Mhm. And they. Yeah, they were very I think they. absolutely didn't fear to use uh their.

uh their weapons. Yeah, that's generally the uh the. sentiment. I mean, these guys are at. war. That's what they want to do. No. Yeah. And they did it. Mhm. And you said. I mean there the US brought in like two. Apaches. Two Apaches and two Spectre. gunships. Two spect which and Spectre. gunship is Russian generals. Russian. generals uh was completely confused by.

this situation. Russian generals uh. didn't have a. uh ability uh an ability. to to. to take a responsibility and uh to make. a decision uh. uh. uh independently. independently.

And when. he encounter uh with this. situation, he he will he confused absolutely. because the question is right, why did. the Russian Ministry of Defense deny. Mhm. that it it was Russians who who. were attacking. And there there is an.

argument I think to be made like. Proggoian his gamble in trying to take. Konico. uh was that when the when the. Americans saw that it was Russians. coming Mhm. the Americans would want to. avoid any direct. confrontation World War III and and they. would back away and retreat along with. with the Kurds. And he was incredibly. mistaken in in in that.

calculation. Uh, and what I think he. wasn't counting on and what Marada is. saying is that when the Americans were. calling into the Ministry of Defense, you have some poor guy on the line who. is also not going to be responsible for. World War II. And so the the quickest. thing that you're going to do is not. say, "Yeah, those are my guys attacking. US soldiers." You're going to say, "Don't know anything about it. Don't. know what you're talking about." and try.

to go to your higher ups to cover your. own butt. And so ultimately it was, you. know, it was probably he probably got. provosion probably had kind of a wink. and a nod from the Ministry of Defense. that he was going to try to do this and. if it worked out, it's a great Russian. victory for everybody. Assad, the. Russians progosion, and if it doesn't in. the Ministry of Defense's mind, it's.

just Vagner guys who who are getting. killed. Wow. How long did the battle go on for? Uh how how long? Uh about 6 hour. 6. hours. uh from the uh from the midnight. to to to morning about midnight to. morning. Uh 189.

uh Russian machineries were killed in. this battle and 23 uh Syrian fighters. for man from my union was. killed. Uh, how many wounded? No, about. 200. 200 dead. Two two units wounded. Two. units. 200 wounded. Two assault units. was completely destroyed, mate. I mean, weapon. uh uh.

technic and uh like 300 casualties. total. Uh the next uh on the next day uh. Russian authority uh uh proclaimed that. no one Russian uh. suffered uh in this event. Wow. No one. And you were responsible. for counting the bodies, right? And. reporting it. No. Yes, of course. Yeah. And I I must to bring.

the the body of the dead of the kill of. the dead death suran in uh in the town. uh in the city. We was uh headquarter of. uh my battalion. Oh, so he was there for. the ceremony of the the burial. Ah. burial. Yeah. I was before we get there, what what what ended it? Why did they.

stop? If they didn't kill everybody, what stopped it? After after I uh coming. back uh from this battle, I gave an. order to send my people uh to bring body. and weapon uh on the battlefield. brought uh from this area all. uh all body and all weapons that we.

uh that was uh. uh left on this area uh during the. battle. So eventually in the morning, the Ministry of Defense got in touch. with the Americans and it was agreed the. Americans agreed to a 2-hour pause so. that the Russians could collect weapons. and and debt. So if. the if the Ministry of Defense of Russia. initially denied this three different.

times, then how do they contact the US. to ask to clean up the bodies? They can uh they could. uh say us uh say uh so uh in the very. beginning and if they uh say yes okay uh. we uh I I will give an order to retreat. and uh.

they if uh Russian generals to gave in. order to retreat. Uh nothing. happened. Uh everything will be fine. But uh Russian. generals didn't know what to do in this. situation. But eventually they they told the. Americans we need to we need to go. collect. So eventually they said there.

might be some Russians there to the. Americans. Mhm. The thing is this uh it. uh it has already happened. Mhm. Yeah. There's no denying it anymore. We we. were destroyed. Yeah. We were the whole. uh field was covered with copters and uh. uh burning uh burned uh tank uh.

uh and uh trucks of our units. Everyone uh who can move. uh left this area and uh. so there was only bodies left and come. to the bank of the river. Mhm. So there. were only bodies left. Yeah. Mhm. And then the agreement was made that. they have two hours to go back to the. area to to to collect the dead.

How does that make you feel now knowing. that the Russian military had denied. three different times that it was. Russians on the ground and then also. told the Russian people that there were. no. Russians that were killed in that in. that battle? Firstly, uh I think the American acted.

as it. uh. uh according to the situation. uh if I were on their place, I will do. the same. action. Uh it's a rules of war. If you. under attack, you uh must to protect. themsel. and uh wage and counter.

attack. Uh secondly, I think. uh it was bad think. uh from the side of our. chief. Uh it was uh let's say the. preusion and vagner was absolutely. uh wrong in this.

situation. It's absolutely wrong. But uh. by Vagner he means boot. Yeah. Uh this. battle was a offensive uh uh was a. defensive action from the outside. We. uh was under attack of Kurdish forces. and despite of the. uh heavy losses we can stay uh we can uh.

stayed on our place and uh uh to protect. and protected uh our position. But what. surprised me very much. that many. of our guys that uh took part in this. battle accepted this version. Wow. Wow. Accepted this version. It's a.

nonsense. Wow. But this is. true. I uh spoke uh uh with some guys. and uh trying to remind him. uh. that do you remember we we are going to. assault.

uh no one. uh attacked. us Uh we was uh we uh was. uh in initi we initiated this. events only we have a responsibility for. the. circumstances of uh this battle. I think. probably every American that fought that.

day is going to watch this. Do you have. anything personally to say to them? What? What? What can I say? Uh them they. as I already said they acted. uh as uh according to the. uh rule of. law. Uh it was our initi initiative.

M nothing. So how long after the battle. did you leave Syria? Uh one year. One. year. But this is when you left Vagner. for Radut, right? Yes. When I left. Vagner, I start I joined. Reut. It only uh defended or like did.

security for it was a different it was a. different PMC. But their only job as a PMC was to. secure secure static static security. Exactly. It it was not uh uh for me. Let's take a quick break. When I started this podcast, it seemed. like I had to figure it out all on my. own. It was overwhelming. When you're. starting something new, it seems like. your to-do list just keeps growing and.

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exvvpn.com/srs. and you can get an extra. 3 months free. ExpressVPN.com/srs. All right, Morad. So, you get back. to. Russia. How much longer was it until the. Ukraine war kicked off? After this. event, uh the this war. began.

and and I left my country, John, what was with. the what was the mutiny all about? Yeah. So I. think you know Morat as he's saying he. he goes back he he finishes his. uh work in Syria but I mean after the. battle of. Kasham in which Morat participated I.

mean already by this point we were. talking about it earlier Vagner is in. Sudan by this point. uh by around the same time as the battle. of Kasham they first started arriving. the central African Republic and then. they're go showing up in all sorts of. places in Africa, Libya and in Mali. and over there progression is acting. kind of independently like like we were. talking about um but as the battle of. Kasham kind of uh showed uh for Gojan.

himself is not always on the same page. as the the ministry of defense and and. minister of defense. shoo uh and he's sort of a rock in their. shoe very often. You have to imagine. here's this guy who is kind of. technically supposed to with his forces. be subordinate, but he also has a mind. and ambition of his own. Mhm. And he can.

occasionally uh get in front of Putin. himself and you can imagine what he's. saying about the people that he doesn't. like in front of Putin. So, you know, imagine, you know, you're uh you're the. boss of an employee, but the employees. dad is the CEO, right? I mean, you know. that there's another channel that goes. up if you try to, you know, if you try. to boss them around. And. so, even though the the Ministry of. Defense and and Vagner are cooperating.

in in Africa quite a bit, there's still. that interpersonal tension. And so when uh when Putin makes the. decision to launch the full-scale war uh. in in Ukraine in February. 2022, he gives, you know, the planning. of it over to uh the general staff and. in the Ministry of Defense and they want. nothing to do with progosion. And so. their thinking at the time is that this.

is going to be a quick easy victory and. we can we can do it kind of in their. mind by by the book without having to. use guys like. Proggoian. And so in in the initial. month or so of the invasion, uh Vagner. is actually left out and Progosan is. pissed about it. He's calling up the the. guys in the GRU, uh, try trying to figure out why his. guys aren't in it and then trying to get. his guys into it. And meanwhile, the the.

kind of the very quick operation to take. Kiev does not go as planned and the. Russian military is suffering setbacks. And so, Pgoan now has his opportunity to. to get his guys into uh the war. And you. know the thing about Vagner that I think. Morat would tell you too is that uh in. in the intervening years really since. Chetchna and you know a very brief war.

with with Georgia not a lot of guys in. the Russian military have real battle. experience like not a lot of people have. been have been shot at. And so when when. Vagner comes in with its commanders, they start delivering some quick. battlefield. victories. And so this puts Poggoan all. of a sudden in this like great position. He's able to come out of the shadows and. he becomes a hero of Russia. He declares.

himself, oh, he denied it always that he. was tied to Vagner Group. Now he. declares, "I was always the founder of. Vagner." and he's on state television. and as Morat said, this is a guy who. already has a big ego, right? And and. and the way that he always gets around. his rivals is by gambling big like at. like at Hasham. And so he starts also. promising things that he's going to do, something that the generals would would.

never do. And ultimately what he ends up. promising is that he's going to. basically Vagner is going to take Bakmu, this kind of middlesized city, uh, from. Ukrainian forces. And the way that he's. going to do it is he gets exclusive. permission for a time to go to all of. Russia's prisons and and recruit. prisoners to the front line. And so he. shows up and he goes himself. I mean.

he's all he's he's a guy who does a lot. of things himself. Yes. He was deprived. for the resources of of the. mobilization. Yeah. He wasn't allowed to have actual. soldiers. And so he gets the the. convicts. And so he shows up at at at. these Russian penal colonies and he they. gather all the prisoners into the the. prison yard. and he comes in in his. helicopter and he he comes in and and he. speaks in front of all of the prisoners. and he says, "You know, I have an offer.

for you. You you can come and fight for. me for for 6 months and if you survive. uh your you're a free man and your. criminal record uh is. expuned." and he tells them that uh my. losses are worse than Stalin broad which. you know obviously resonates with uh. with with Russians and. uh ultimately about 50,000 guys sign up.

and and the tactic that progosion is. going to use to take Bakmoot is the. human human wave tactic. And so these uh. these convicts, they get two weeks. training. uh usually I think just inside kind of. the the border with Ukraine and in uh. around Luhansk and then after that. they're they're sent to the front and uh. basically they're they're put in small. units and the each small unit go one.

unit will go out attack the Ukrainian. position you know eight guys might be. killed. But two guys get into the trench. and they do some damage before getting. killed. And before the Ukrainians have a. chance to recover, another unit of. convicts is coming through. And so it's. a very. uh. inefficient way to to wage war, but it. is effective over time. And so it uh uh.

uh the thing is that this uh uh main. uh the main reason for this operation. was to attract uh as many uh Ukraine. forces Mhm. as uh as it uh possible in. order to prevent uh from the attacks uh.

uh on on the other uh areas of areas of. the front line. Yeah. And uh as you can. imagine, it's a huge front line now, right? In in in Ukraine. In the. beginning, the first phase of the war on. Donbos, you know, it's a it's a little. section of of the Donbos region. Now. it's, you know, like a thousand. kilometers long maybe or something. And. so he's a he's also engaged with the. Ukrainians. Uh and the Ukrainians are.

sending some of their best guys to. defend Bachmood. while for the Russian. government uh they're losing in their. mind some of the worst people in society. right these convicts and so you know. it's like a 4:1 ratio in terms of losses. but it's something that the the Russians. and and progosion are willing to do for. the reasons that Marat said but you know. at this point though progosion is like. an intern like we all know who Pgoan is.

right during the Bachmood campaign he. becomes like the face of the war itself. CNN is trying to reach him. The New York. Times is trying to reach him for an. interview. He's, you know, he's huge. back home in Russia. He's like, finally. everything that he, you know, his ego is. matched now by, you know, his his his. popularity. Yes. In this term, the uh Wagner group uh completely.

falfeed his mission in this war. they uh achieve his their goals that. would uh stand before him before them. Yeah. uh they uh. uh attract uh many uh. uh a lot of uh Ukraine. forces and give the opportunity for the. Russian uh army to pre uh.

to. prepare more uh mobilizing. reserve and uh to build the uh defensive. line. uh on the uh in the area of uh. Zaparos Zaparoske district but still I. mean there's still a lot of enmity.

between the minister of defense Sergey. Shuyu and and Pgojan and so at some. point inevitably especially since Pgojan. is having all of this success like Morat. mentioned. the Ministry of Defense is going to want. to check him. And so the the first way. that they do it is they they start. cutting off progosion from convict. recruitment. So he's he's promised to. Putin, I'm going to take Bakmoot, but. his means of doing so now is.

disappearing. He needs a lot of bodies. Mhm. To take Bachmood. The Ministry of. Defense is cutting him off of those. bodies. Not because they're against. prisoner recruitment. they just start. doing it. themselves. But the difference is and. this is always the issue for progosion. is when he was doing it, he had the. permission by like a wink and a nod from. the presidential administration. When. the Ministry of Defense does it, Russian. Parliament officially makes it legal for.

them to recruit from prison. So there's. always a way that progosion can get. screwed over in in whatever he's doing. So he's he's getting cut off. And so now. he starts going public with the Ministry. of Defense saying, "I'm not getting. enough. ammunition for for what we're trying to. do." And the the Ministry of Defense is. screwing over Vagner by not giving by. not giving us enough ammunition. ammunition that we need. And so now this.

spat starts going very public over. social media. And then. ultimately Shyu and Fosian at this point. hate each other's guts. and the Ministry of Defense. Then kind. of like their final. uh kind of counterattack on provosion is. they get the Kremlin to agree that all. soldiers fighting in Ukraine on behalf. of Russia have to sign a contract with. the Ministry of Defense. Only those who.

fight on the front line. Those on the. front line. Yeah. And so for Pergoan, you can imagine he's this big guy now in. Russia. He's got thousands and thousands. of men ostensibly under his command. And. he recognizes that this is making him. political, too. And so all of the sudden, the Ministry. of Defense is taking those men out from. underneath him. And I think for him what. what he saw was the writing on the wall. that at the very least when I no longer.

have Vagner group it means that I'm. going to kind of disappear into. obscurity which he wasn't able to do at. that point. He couldn't just retire and. be quiet. He was incapable of that. But. also without those men he's no longer he. doesn't have political leverage anymore. and it could result in his ultimate. demise. And so he has to figure out a. way how do I convince Putin to choose. between me and Shyu because Putin is is. choosing Shuyu right now. And so the.

decision is made that uh Vagner is going. to turn back from Ukraine into southern. Russia and and they're going to capture. and kill the Minister of Defense. Wow. And so, uh, on June 23rd, uh, 2023, Vagner crosses back over. Progosian claims that that the Ministry. of Defense hit them with a rocket. attack, which seems to be not the case. False attack, but it's the pretext,

absolutely false attack, but the pretext. is now that we're going to go capture, we're going to go arrest Shuyu and and. uh, another general, Gasimo. And so they. they go back into Russia and they they. take over they surround and take over. the southern Russian uh Russia's. southern military command and Rasto and. they're looking for Shuyu but Shuyu has. already escaped and so the generals who. are there they try to talk Pogo down.

Yes. Pregusion uh thought that the when. he. uh uh when he proposed the uh uh to make. a choice. Mhm. Between them between him. and uh between Troyu uh. Pogan will choose of course him. Putin. will choose Posh. Yes. And he also he. also thinks too or is hoping in the back.

of his mind that all of that popularity. that he had from being on social media. and being on Russian TV on the front. lines of Bakmoot means that the the the. soldiers in the Russian military itself. are on his side too. and and and so he goes and and they've. taken the military command and and the. generals who are there are trying to. talk him down and they're not able to do. it. And so Possian announces that.

they're going to have a march for. justice on Moscow and and the column of. Vagner the Vagner column turns from. southern uh Russian military command and. starts heading up the highway uh to. Moscow. And I mean this is I mean I. think everybody was glued to their TV. screens to see like Vagner uh column. heading on Moscow and and the mayor of. Moscow they started digging up the. highway around Moscow to prevent uh.

their you know their potential arrival. uh Vagner shoots down I think a number. of helicopters and and and planes about. 13 people were killed. Um, but each. time, you know, he's he's getting. provosion is getting closer and closer. to. Moscow and he's also kind of going into. empty space. And so now he he's trying. to. communicate to to Putin that all he is. trying all he is trying to do is is take.

out his rivals Shyu and Garasimov. He's. not trying to. overthrow Putin himself. No. Oh, but the. issue is the closer he's getting to. Moscow, the more he could accidentally. be unleashing a coup because it's going. to be such a destabilizing moment. And. so at at at some point he's trying to. say, "I'm not overthrowing the. government." But now it's getting close. to looking like he might overthrow the. government if he gets into Moscow.

and and behind the scenes uh the. president of Bellarus, Alexander. Lucenko, is negotiating between Putin's. side and. Pgoan and and eventually he he gets. Progosian to agree to to to halt the. march and I think for Progos himself he. was a little bit relieved because he was. realizing that events were going out of. his control by I mean they were hardly. in his control beforehand but they were.

as the closer he was getting to Moscow. and they got within 150. miles, things were really starting to to. get out of control and he backed down. And you could make an argument that the. guy who had, you know, an insane risk. tolerance, you know, from going after, you know, going against Americans in the. battle of Kasham and and, you know, risking his neck saying he's going to. take Bakmoot. This was perhaps the one. moment where he should have doubled down.

and gone all the way to to Moscow, but. but he chose not to. And no, Porgan. didn't want to take over the power. Yeah. uh and uh I think uh preorgan uh. eventually realized uh. that he didn't take into account one. simple. thing. Uh Putin don't need the ministry.

of defense uh professional ministry of. the uh qual uh qualifying and the. efficiency minister for defense. He need. a close. alliance supporter. Yeah. Uh and uh when realized soldier himself. no when Pushian realized that. uh in any case uh.

uh. he cannot to achieve his goal. Uh he. gave an order to turn turn around. and that sealed his fate ultimately 3. months later. As far as a conflict. between the Ministry of Defense and. Prejud this conflict was.

permanent. Uh the main reason uh uh uh. from the moment of the creation the. uh brigade uh brigade of mercenaries. brigade and from the moment when uh. priusion uh. uh become a sole curator of this project. this. uh conflict began. Yeah. Yeah, cuz it.

works for system too. The main reason of. course money. Yeah, preiona. group uh uh was. funded by passing the ministry of. defense and shyu was deprived from the. opportunity to use this money for uh to. to profit from this flow of the money.

cuz that's how you make big money. Russia is by off of the state budgets. So everything is a battle over the flow. of budget because the more budget that. comes your way, the more you can mine. your own budget. Yes, of course. Uh. precaution uh. was group was funded directly from the. uh state. budget uh by passing by passing. Yeah.

And it went all the way down. And so one. of the reasons. that like pe one of the ways that people. were making money in in Donbos in 2014. 2015, right, is you're a. commander and you tell you say you tell. the Ministry of Defense, oh, I have 200. guys under my command. The Ministry of. Defense pays your salaries, but you. actually have 150 or 125 guys under your.

command. So, But not the case in the. term of the preion preion don't he was. at a. bigger some uh. some small small money that's small. money laundering though. so was he assassinated. yes. uh and do you think.

uh I don't know what exact who exactly. uh. to exactly was. who who was the actual person who did it. he doesn't know who is actual person who. did. it uh prior uh had a many enemies.

So, you're saying it could have been. anybody. It might not have been the. Ministry of Defense or Putin himself. I. think a lot of people uh would put it on. uh the FSB, which is the kind of the. Russian successor to the KJB, which. handles domestic threats for uh for. Putin as of course. the in the decision uh the final. decision. The final decision. Putin made. a final decision. Of course, of course.

Who made the final decision? Only with. his permission. Uh that was that can be happened. Yeah. But who came up with the entire plan? Who was uh. who was uh executives? Yeah. This uh uh. time will show. So what is Wagner Group. today? right. now since. uh.

prejin cease to exist. So everything. everything became subordinate to the. ministry of defense. Okay. But the thing. was is that you kind of as we were. talking about like the relationship. between Vagner and the state was also. different in each place and and so in. Syria like when Morat was there you know. they get everything from the Ministry of.

Defense. They're probably paid through. the Ministry of Defense. They're working. very closely. They have Russian air. power that's support. I mean this is. like a ministry of defense operation. when you get to like the Central African. Republic, there's not as much support. from the Kremlin and so and so some kind. of autonomy. There's a degree of. independence, they're opening up. breweries. Like Ministry of Defense. doesn't want breweries or they have. these gold mines. And so when Progoion. is gone, the Ministry of Defense has to.

figure out how do we take over all of. these things? Cuz Progosan wasn't just. involved with mercenaries like Morat. He. had troll farms. He had like chocolate. museums in St. Petersburg. He had mining. companies. The main body of uh this. project was not a vagna group. Vagnner. group only part of uh this project. PNA. group, the military group that uh.

uh was you used uh for the create for. the creation of the favorable. environment uh to promote a business. project of progosion. So like Vogner. what basically is part of the Vagner was. a way for progosion to overcome his. status as you know an ex-con and try to. show his worth to eventually join.

Putin's inner circle. Mhm. He was never. really able to do it. But so when he. when he when he died, the it was. relatively easy for the Ministry of. Defense in places like Syria or Libya. just to have guys sign new contracts and. to take over. But where they were acting. independently in like the Central. African Republic central. def showed up and they were like they. couldn't understand it. There's. breweries. There's all sorts of things.

going on. And so the decision is made if. it's not broke, let's not fix it. Let. them just kind of keep doing their. thing. The industrial forj Central. African Republic uh uh. uh this is a resource for the benefit of. the president of Russia and he's in a. circle. Yeah. So I think some account. numbers got changed in terms of the. transfers. Okay. It's a little bit diff.

difficult uh to take over. Yeah. Cuz. they don't they don't understand it. fully. Only the guys who work there know. how it works. Bag groups bug group is. over. It's over. Well guys, thank you. Thank you for so. much for for being here today and for. sharing all that information. And I just. want to ask you one thing. You know, we. we'd had a conversation earlier about. your feelings on on the Russian invasion. of Ukraine, and now you're here in.

France seeking asylum. I'm just curious. if you have. anything to say to Putin. Get out. Get out. Get out. You are enemy for my. country. You You are the main problem.

for my. country and you're in his inner. circle. Well, thank you both for being. there. Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Thank you. [Music]. No matter where you're watching Shawn.

Ryan Show from, if you get anything out. of this, please like, comment, subscribe, and most importantly, share. this everywhere you possibly can. And if. you're feeling extra generous, please. leave us a review on Apple and Spotify. podcasts.