Lt. Col. Scott Mann - Operation Pineapple Express | SRS #036

we cover a lot of different topics on. the Sean Ryan Show everything from. in graphic detail how tough it is for. vets combat vets to reintegrate into. civilian life we talk about. government corruption at the deepest. levels we talk about how the cartel is. fueling this fentanyl epidemic that. we're all feeling throughout the U.S and. Canada and no matter what the subject. matter is the question from you all is.

always what can I do and. we give advice we answer all those. emails at least we try to and I think a. lot of people don't think that they. think oh well what can I do there's. nothing I can do there is something you. can do and what I really like about this. episode is that it proves. that if a few dedicated driven. individuals get together. you can make a Major Impact in the world.

and that's what that's what these people. did the people of operation Pineapple. Express saved a lot of lives there was. just a few of them when. everything else failed the entire. government was a complete disaster. during the the Afghanistan pull out. these guys. made some [ __ ] happen and left a Major. Impact in the world with what they did. and so what I'm trying to highlight here. is it doesn't take an army to make a.

difference it just takes a few dedicated. driven individuals that can make a Major. Impact. and so I really think you're going to. like this episode it's actually very. uplifting once we get into what they. actually did at operation Pineapple. Express and without further Ado I'd like. to welcome Scott Mann to the show if you. don't mind. please this helps me out it helps get.

the word out about this. exact piece of content. hit the like button hit the Subscribe. button and leave a comment and if you're. on iTunes and Spotify please leave us a. review tell us what you thought of the. show I read all of that stuff love. reading it love you guys thank you for. being here. cheers. enjoy this one.

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entered to win a brand new upgraded Ford. Bronco or if you don't want it just take. the 75 000. and put it in your new Ridge wallet go. to ridge.com Sean use the coupon code. Sean for 10 off thank you Ridge wallet. for sponsoring the Sean Ryan Show. Scott Mann welcome to the show Sean.

thanks for having me man so cool to be. here it's my pleasure I'm I'm super. excited about this me too so just quick. background on You author of operation. Pineapple Express New York Times. bestseller you basically orchestrated. that entire. pull out on the civilian sector correct. with that group I was uh yeah definitely. one of the guys that helped lead that. yeah amazing retired U.S Special Forces. Lieutenant Colonel 23-year army career.

18 of that and Special Operations 10. years with seventh Special Forces Group. deployed to Central America South. America Iraq and Afghanistan. co-founder and president of the hero's. journey writer and actor of the play. elegy of a Green Beret that last out. elegy of a Green Beret yeah founder of. rooftop leadership yeah that's a hell of. a career yeah it's been a it makes me. tired thinking about it but uh it's been.

and I was supposed to you know retire. but not exactly well. I want to talk all about your book and. what you experienced over there but. first I start. everybody gets a gift. that comes on oh man there you go this. is so awesome Dogma now open it up all. right okay. I'm never good at doing the tape thing. what's that any guesses. um. no but like looking around this room and.

all the stuff that you have in here like. I can barely wait to check it out man. all right. oh my God the gummies. there you go this is awesome made it. right here in the USA absolutely so. grateful brother. these will be put to use immediately. nice thank you. thank you. well. I want to start we're going to talk. about the Afghanistan pull out and. operation Pineapple Express but one. thing that I think that the.

civilian sector. they just don't understand is how close. Special Operations units actually all. units yeah in all agencies worked with. their Afghan counterparts whether it's. you know fighting force or an. interpreter or an asset you know people. don't understand. how closely we were working with them. and and how close those relationships. were and so I wanted to.

have a conversation with you about. what those people were doing for us over. there and uh and and we couldn't have. accomplished any of the stuff that we. accomplished without them it's such an. important question and point Sean when. we think about the Afghan issue because. a lot of people they do they come up to. me and I'm sure they have you too and go. what's the big deal. like we were there for 20 years they. need to fight for their country and we. shouldn't be there you know and the. trying to help someone understand the.

the level of relationship and connection. that exists between our operators our. service members and afghans. and and Iraqis and and other people that. we've partnered with is so critical so I. think to unpack it what I would start. with is this. if you look at the Afghan campaign when. we were hit on 9 11 2001 the worst. terror attack in American history and. members of the Special Operations. Community within weeks responded by.

inserting into that country and you know. they didn't go after Al Qaeda and the. Taliban unilaterally for the most part. they immediately partnered they. partnered with members of the Northern. Alliance these were the the the the the. uzbeks the tajiks the hazaras the ethnic. groups that were resisting the Taliban. already and they also partnered with. posthum tribes in the South and the East. who were also resisting so from the very. beginning of Afghanistan we were. partnered and we knew that the only way.

that we were going to have a Fighting. Chance in that country to to to to to. serve an antibody to Al-Qaeda and keep. this from happening again and get. retribution was by with and through. the indigenous people of Afghanistan so. I'll start with that and and see how. that lands on you but like the right out. of the game we partnered with these. resistance groups and from and and uh. one more thing I'll say. if you look at what happened to our.

country if you look at how we were hit. we knew Osama Bin Laden was developing. Al-Qaeda into a strategic strike. capability we had the USS Cole the. attacks in Africa we knew that he had a. safe haven in Afghanistan but you know. we did not have we didn't have the. ground Intel Network that we needed we. didn't have a partnership with the. resistance forces we had no Afghan. military to partner with so there was no. way to reach him except with this over. the horizon strike capability which we. tried multiple times and failed and so.

if you look at the lead up to the strike. of 9 11 the conditions on the ground. that led to that are almost identical to. what we put in place when we abandoned. 20 years later wow. that fast. yeah and and the the you know we still. have Partners so if you look at all of. the service members who deployed to. Afghanistan over that 20-year period had. some version of partnership with the. Afghans you know and there was an.

evolution in the Indigenous capability. it started with a resistance group and. then around 0405 that was my first. deployment in as a Green Beret you saw. the Afghan National Army start to stand. up and my old group seventh group we. worked a lot in Latin America before 9. 11. so we were real big on partnering. with uh foreign armies the AF you know. the Colombian Commandos the lanceros and. so when we saw the the emergence of the. Afghan National Army we saw that as a. way to really build formal capacity now.

now you've got a formal partner the. Afghan police the Afghan Army but they. hadn't existed in decades. you know so they were literally built. from the ground up. um and it and even when they collapsed. there were still all kinds of systemic. problems but the point is partnership. really went through a lot of iterations. in that country over several decades but. one thing was consistent whether you. were an infantryman whether you were a. marine an Airman a seal or a Green Beret.

yes you would do some unilateral strike. Ops but your focus was on building. capacity with partner forces. very true. that's a great overall picture I would. like to get a little more personal now. and talk about especially being a Green. Beret I mean with the with the do you. want to describe the mission yeah of the. SF yeah I mean you know and and when you. hear me talk today about this I you know. please know that like uh the Special.

Operations community in general did a. huge chunk of what I'm talking about. that my experience was as a Green Beret. as did the the conventional forces but. for Green Berets who are part of the. overall Socom or Special Operations. Command Community every single. constituent in Socom has a specific. unique capability. whether it's Navy Seals Army Rangers or. Green Berets each of them has a specific. capability that they're the best in the. world at in my opinion.

um for Special Forces or Green Berets as. our nickname calls our our specialty is. irregular warfare unconventional warfare. where we work with indigenous people to. help them stand up on their own and. fight against oppression now whether we. do that with a formal act like a partner. Force like Commandos whether we do that. with rural Farmers that's our bread and. butter we uh I tell people that a modern. day Green Beret is a is a combination of. John Wick Lawrence of Arabia and the.

Verizon guy you know the Verizon guy you. know the guy that's going around making. the connections all the time because. that's what you know they are strategic. catalysts they're connectors if you look. at the early days of Afghanistan when. 595 and those other teams went in and. The Horse Soldiers and they connected. with the Northern Alliance they. connected with the postings in the South. what they really did was they mobilized. an indigenous population so they went in. with 12 came out with 1200. so that.

really is where in my assessment Special. Forces have a very very unique approach. is we are hardwired through language. cultural immersion we're taught in the. qualification course to make build. relationships with indigenous people and. and for in fact. I I would submit that the seals and a. lot of the other groups uh you know. because of the unilateral strike. capability that you guys work on so hard. like that's that's your thing where. where our thing is we can do that but. when we can do that in conjunction with.

a partner Force an indigenous capability. I think that's when we best serve the. nation yeah I mean I've always been. fascinated with the with the SF Mission. and I did some of that kind of stuff but. yep we weren't being a seal we weren't. trained in that kind of stuff so it kind. of kind of turned into a mess for me but. watching. then when I went to the agency I was. able to kind of co-deploy with a lot of. SF units and.

when I saw the capability that that you. guys have you know with such a small. team embedding. in a village where nobody's been in and. and turning that into. a fighting force it's it's it's. incredible it is really cool to watch. and I I was so in awe of the years that. I because I wanted to be a Green Beret. since I was a little kid growing up in a. log in town I fell in love with it. because I met a guy that was a Green. Beret when I was like 14. and when he.

told me the stories about what he did I. just thought man like that is but being. around Green Beret ncos. that that had done that for years to. watch them Sean go into these places. where the rest of the world just forgot. about him and the level of appreciation. that they have for culture and reality. at a local level is I've never seen. anything like it I've never seen. anything like it their ability to just. immerse in the language and the culture. and and and everything they do is built.

around relationships you know the social. capital that they build with these. communities that they build with their. with their partner force and they they. take it so seriously and they understand. that like that Social Capital that you. build. when risk is lower. that's the stuff that you leverage when. it all falls apart or that when you've. got to do the nasty work interesting. very interesting let's talk about if you. let's talk about some of your personal.

experiences going in and and standing up. of course any. any part of the world you want to talk. about in particular that you were a part. of I think my first exposure to it was. in the 90s uh when we were doing work in. in Colombia and uh. as a young Special Forces Captain you. know I I thought I was advising my. Colombian counterpart in the in the in. the uh he was Colombian faces especiales. you know Special Forces. and he was a major and really really.

sharp dude and I was we were talking. about their their dealings with the with. the gorillas in Colombia and the Narco. traffickers and I was giving him like. the standard token Special Forces advice. and how to you know how to think about. it and he kind of looked at me and he's. like if you dealt with the fork before. and I was like no but you know this and. he's like. sit down for a second captain and he. took me to school man and it really. opened my eyes in that moment it's like. wow like first of all the partners that.

we work with they really in a lot of. cases they know far more than we do. you know it's important to look at where. you fit just like anything else in life. right I mean. to walk in the room thinking you know it. all. and you have all the answers I'm from. the government how do you like me so far. it's not only is it off-putting but it's. it's naive and and that was a real. wake-up call for me it took a humility. lesson in what partnership really looks. like and thankfully I had some wonderful. uh ncos uh that taught me you know the. value of that I remember one time in.

Paraguay we dropped into Paraguay. um my team I had a very Senior Team this. was back in the 90s. um like my team sergeant had been in. seventh group for 21 years oh wow my my. warrant officer had been in for 19 years. and my uh my Intel Sergeant like 17. and. I was you know right out of the Q course. as a captain and I'm the commander but. we went to Paraguay. and it was right after an attempted coup.

uh by General Oviedo and our job was to. help stand up the the Special Operations. Command or to bolster the Special. Operations Command forces from Paraguay. and really. um multi-echelon training with them and. then culminate it in a training event. where it would be attended by. parliamentarians and the southern. commands four star and it would really. send a message to the rest of the folks. that might be contemplating an. Insurgency don't mess with this Force.

like they are the core of the paraguayan. military so it's a pretty big mission. for a young captain and and nine other. dudes absolutely and so we go down there. and we're training you know the ncos. immediately go into what they do the. Medics are training on the medical. portions the the weapons guys are. teaching Ambush and light infantry and. then we're going to bring it all into. this complex multi-echelon exercise with. infill platforms and medevacs and field. artillery and so my job as the captain. was to really just you know Empower. these teams or these ncos make sure they.

had what they needed and ensure that the. resources were in place for all this. well I had managed to square away. everything for the actual X day of. execution but the rehearsals the full. mission profile rehearsals I dropped the. ball on that and so we did not have. training areas for the full mission. profile rehearsals I go in I have to. tell my team Sergeant these senior old. crusty farts that I dropped the ball and. I'm gonna need some help and we're. already in Paraguay. so I tell them and they were super cool. about it you know kind of shook their.

head and the warrant officers like come. with me sir. and I'm like all right so the chief. mccague takes me in the truck we drive. across the base to the range control. area and there's this little short fat. paraguayan Captain sitting there and. Chief and him start rapping in Spanish. really fast I'm trying to keep up. you know with my Defense Language. Institute One Plus One Plus. and they talked for a while and and I. tried to just follow along as we're. walking out I was like what did what did.

you guys say I missed part of it and she. said good news and bad news. good news is you got your ranges the bad. news is you got dinner plans tonight. so I'm like okay so we go back we take. the team home we go back to the base and. we drive on the other side of the base. where the officer housing is and it's. like not the kind of housing you would. see on our bases it's little cinder. block homes didn't even have a front. door chickens running around in the yard. kids everywhere and this little short. fat Captain is there same guy he's now. in his PT shorts and his seventh group.

t-shirt and drinking a beer and he. motions us inside and like it is I'm not. kidding you like it's it's half the size. of this room the whole house. dirt floors. um you know salsa music blaring and in. there he's got one couch a TV tray with. a TV with antenna ears on it and. in the room on the walls. certificates of appreciation. covering every bit of space in the room.

going from septimogroupo Seventh group. going all the way back to 1986. are you. serious yeah wow his whole house. was decorated. with certificates of appreciation from. Seventh group over. 15 years damn I'm not creepy as hell. like I'm sitting there going oh my God. like this guy decorated his house with. those little cheap certificates of. appreciation that we get out of the. supply room with the with the five cent. black frame and but yet he he decorated.

his whole house with and in that moment. that's when I I was like okay. every one of these detachments that came. here got me this range. damn you know that every one of them. incrementally contributed to the. organizational relationship with the. paraguayan military that manifested. between the three of us right and it did. ended up being a great event uh the. multi I mean it was it was and I and I.

do believe that that it sets such a. strong message prepared why there were. no more attempts you know at Insurgency. and you never hear about that in the. News That's not sexy yeah but from a. capacity building perspective from what. that team was sent there to do. it was all made possible by the actions. and activities of a bunch of sfodas. 12-man teams I never met man and for me. that that really drove home what it is. that we do is that we move the ball five. yards down the field every time if you. look at what happened in Afghanistan.

when the agency went in as the pilot. team. in front of the Special Forces guys we. hadn't been in Afghanistan since 78 when. the embassy fell and the Ambassador was. killed so there were no pre-existing. relationships in Afghanistan for the SF. guys to Leverage. so guys were brought out of retirement. senior guys from the agency were sent in. on the jawbreaker teams who were they. they were all guys that had worked with. the mujideen during the Soviet. occupation.

wow you know it's it all comes down to. those relationships that you build when. nobody's looking. I think that's a perfect story to bring. up because it's 15 years you know the. guy had 15 years of relationships with. with seventh group Special Forces and. then you know fast forward however many. years to Afghanistan that was a 20-year. War right so we have Afghan interpreters.

Commandos all these different you know. types. and that's it. some of them have a 20-year relationship. you know with. with U.S forces what I'd like to move. into a little bit now is. did you did you work as a Green Beret in. Afghanistan absolutely yeah let's talk a. little bit about how closely. you work with the Afghan counterpart. because I mean essentially in civilian.

terms what you guys do is you go in you. train up a team and then you you fight. with that team just like you would fight. with your own team yeah 100 I mean the. original Green Berets that went into the. country you know they worked very. closely with the militia with the. resistance and then when when my teams. went in in 0405 we worked closely with. those folks but also the emerging Afghan. National army they were brand new. and and in fact I was a I was mission. commander of a operation that went into.

a rusegon province called Nam dong was. that was the was the mission. um but it was uh it was in the spring of. 05 and we took the brand new members of. the Afghan National Army 205th Corps and. to really the one of the Heartland areas. of Taliban Sanctuary up in the mountains. of uruzgan which is South Central. Afghanistan really rough country at that. time there was almost no U.S presence up. there so we were going in it was really. the first maneuver Warfare to be.

conducted by the Afghan National Army. most of these soldiers were 15 years old. had not seen combat the officers had not. been tested and it was Green Berets. that were taking the Afghan National. Army in and we infiltrated on. helicopters on seven hlz's um you had. probably anywhere from 75 to 100 Afghan. National Army members and like three. Green Beret ncos with them in their. Woodland pattern camouflage uniforms and. we sat down in seven hlz's at the same.

time uh I set up my mission command post. I was combat advising to Battalion. commanders in a brigade commander and. their staff who had never maneuvered. forces uh at the time we didn't even. have you know they had one they had an. HF radio but like that was about it you. know they were using sat phones and and. really Antiquated ways to maneuver their. forces that's why Green Berets were so. instrumental in that but as soon as we. landed Sean on those seven hlz's we. could we could hear over the Icom.

scanners the Taliban saying what is this. like look at look at look at all of. these look at these Afghan soldiers what. is this all about you know and and even. like some of them were laughing about it. and and they decided to mask and hit us. and they hit us like in all seven areas. what they didn't count on were those. embedded SF ncos with their. multi-frequency radios and access to. fighter aircraft that we had loitering. at you know at IPS all over the place. and it it started like a 12-day fire.

fight uh right off the bat right out of. the gate and you know a lot of the a a. broken ran you know if it's the first. crack of the round and you had SF ncos. that were fighting overwhelming odds but. they used operational fires to reduce it. it ended up being a really successful. mission in the sense that it was the. first time that the 205th Corps had been. tested and it allowed them to put their. flag their you know their flag down in a. ruse gone at Taran count and they never. left.

um and we were able to establish a. Firebase there uh at Cobra uh that. became you know a notorious Firebase for. pushing into Sanctuary but the point is. like you know in 0405 we were working. with the Afghan National Army now. um. I'll give you an example like uh Matt. Coburn one of the guys in pineapple he. retired as a colonel. um he trained the original Afghan. National Army members that came out as. like lieutenants and privates right off. the assembly line in that time period.

fast forward 20 years later he was the. final Sega sotif or joint special ops. Task Force Commander and his peers his. Partners who are generals sergeants. major and the Afghan Commandos the the. special forces the kka where the. privates and lieutenants that he had. trained as a captain that's amazing you. know and and and then he was the guy. they called because he had retired when.

the government didn't pick up the phone. you know they're calling Colonel Coburn. who would they've known since they were. privates. and I think that's what a lot of people. don't understand is that the. relationships that we built with these. people are not only measured in blood. but in years yeah I mean. we're talking 20 years 20 years two. decades that's that's the life of. raising a kid and understand too Sean. that like. there's only 6 500 Green Berets.

in the inventory. for example and and most of the special. ops units have similar they're small. right and then when you split that. across Iraq and Afghanistan you know and. we only had um. well we had third group and and seventh. group that were primarily focused on. after on Afghanistan while you know. while 10th uh and fifth were focused on. Iraq and then you had the first that. went back and forth but the point is. like you were either in Afghanistan or.

you were getting ready to go back that. was your life you know that was your. life in the Special Operations community. so you had a very small number of these. individuals who were building these. relationships yeah you know you were. there all the time. would you so. do most SF groups do they redeploy back. to the exact spot so you continue that. relationship so I don't think so you. would think so. um. you know one of the things that the the.

other thing that I did in my tenure. there on my third rotation to. Afghanistan was I helped put in place. what was called The Village stability. program or Village stability operations. vso and it was basically where we worked. with rural Farmers post Tunes primarily. at a village level similar to the cidg. program with the mountain yards in. Vietnam that was actually who inspired. it with us but we it's kind of a modern. day Magnificent Seven right where the. teams would go into these Villages and. they would live in these Villages seals. did some of it too in zabul Province it.

was 2010 but we basically helped build. local militias. to stand up against the Taliban at. Village and Community levels and spread. all over Afghanistan in 2010 2011 2012. but what I what I'm going to with that. is that you would think that the Special. Forces Community would send the teams. back to the same areas that they fought. in as a general rule. our special forces command the force. provider out of Fort Bragg did not do. that they had this thing called The. Playbook that they operated off of and.

it was a it was basically like a matrix. that they used to rotate different units. into Afghanistan and they we did not do. a good job as a regiment in my. assessment of putting teams back in the. same areas it happened. on occasion. in one area like maywon to Kandahar. where one team went back three times in. a row and when you looked at their rate. of accomplishment with that community. and that District 10x better wow than.

those around but yet when we tried to. bring that up to the senior leaders at. SF command it just was lost on them. there was too much of a programmatic. solution to how we fielded forces. against this thing and everything except. pre-existing Rapport and my assessment. was considered in that so we could have. done a much better job of continuing. those relationships in those areas and. we didn't so you had these start and. stops every six months to a year. okay.

but still there's still. it's another SF unit it was another SF. unit with an appreciation for that kind. of work and they would typically build. on what the other team had done to some. degree but you know the deal I mean you. bring third group in and seventh group. even if it's 288 one Oda from each yeah. the cultures are so different and how. they think about the world and just the. pre-existing rivalries even overall it. was pretty good but it could have been. so much better. let's talk about some of the living.

conditions you know how close you guys. were living with them like for example. when I was in the agency we if we were. going to an outpost you know it was I. mean you're eating with them you're. working out with them you're getting to. know them. you're learning their culture they're. learning yours you're sleeping next to. them I mean it's. it it just becomes. it gets to the point where there is no. difference between. hanging out with.

young fellow Americans and in your. Afghan counterparts because you're. co-located in the exact same living. conditions living side by side with each. other did you guys I mean yeah same 100. I mean you know you brought up I mean. the way you characterized it spot on the. only thing I would probably add to it is. for Green Berets. um. when you go through the Green Beret. qualification course at Fort Bragg you. know what no matter what you do whether. you're a weapons person or a captain or.

a team Sergeant whatever when you go. through this course you are the. culminating event is a role-playing. exercise called Robin sage it's the. largest role-playing exercise in the. world it covers five rural counties in. North Carolina and it's been going on. since like 1952 and you parachute into. this place and it's a replicated. Insurgency and you jump in. almost identical to what our teams did. in Afghanistan and you you connect with. the guy that owns the Subway shop in. Dunn North Carolina.

is actually a leader of the resistance. and he drives you around in a cattle car. at night like and but he lives there. he's actually a resident he's a third. generation role player the point is we. we spend an inordinate amount of time. training and inculcating in our in our. operators the importance of immersing in. the culture of the language and the. environment and that is exactly what. they do when they move into these. communities like the village stability. program uh our Green Berets grew their. beards out they're wearing indigenous.

clothing they're speaking the language. they're living in a collot in that. Village. you know eating what the locals eat. shopping at the market there is an. expectation that you are you go local or. you go home. you know if you are working with the. Afghan Commandos you wear their uniforms. you wear their patch you you know you. you go into combat with them you are at. their shoulder and you don't necessarily. want to be the first in the stack. because you want them to build that. capacity to do that but you're in that. stack you know and and it becomes such a.

Brotherhood such a connection that. your whole purpose for being there. there's a saying in Special Forces which. is to work yourself out of a job. the way you measure success when you are. working by with and through indigenous. Partners is you work yourself out of a. job in other words that partner force is. so good that you can OverWatch them and. they are able to handle unilaterally. what they need to handle and I would. tell you by there was so much Bloodshed.

so much sweat so much partnership that. occurred between 08 when the Commandos. stood up and the special ops command. stood up for the Afghans until the. collapse that in the last couple of. years. of of the war. the Afghan Special Operations forces. were carrying 98 of the combat load and. they were doing so unilaterally I did. not know that that's incredible. yeah I do have a question. um.

when you guys go in like the 12 the one. end of the beginning or the or. Paraguay at the beginning of that. relationship or column. I mean if there's only 12 guy who. how are you making those relationships. before. before the 12 guys are going in right so. in in Special Operations you you know. particularly in Special Forces. indigenous engagement you always couple. things one is there's usually a pilot. team that can go in in front of you and.

and do that kind of work so in the. initial invasion of Afghanistan you had. a pilot team uh where the agency and if. you ever read the book jawbreaker like. you know for folks who listen to this. like that that was the pilot team that. paved the way for the Special Forces. team that came in behind so the idea is. you always want to build on whatever. pre-existing mechanisms are in place. right so in the case of Afghanistan if. you're going to roll in there and you're. going to work say with the Commandos in. the in in Kandahar in our regional.

command South so you know your team is. going to go do that well you would get. notification ahead of time that that's. what you're going to do and you would. immediately start talking with that. Detachment that's already over there. you'd find out who that is you would. launch a pre-deployment site survey or. pdss you'd get over there with your. senior leaders get on the ground with. that team start building those. relationships there uh you know and then. go back to your unit continue your. pre-mission training based on to. continue to talk with that unit as. you're moving through the training and.

then you get on the ground and then. there's a you know usually a two to. three week left seat right seat ride. where you start to assume those. relationships from the outgoing team. what I will tell you Sean it's a great. question is. some some organizations did that really. well. some didn't put as much stock in it the. ones that really thought about it and. worked at it ahead of time were the ones. who were able to accelerate their ex the. results on the battlefield and I think. they saw better outcomes from their.

their partner Force. with our Afghan Special Operations. Partners the Commandos the Afghan. Special Forces the kka as they were. called and the special Mission Wing. aviators I have to say that our. community our self Community developed a. really good system for building a center. of excellence with them I don't think. people realize how competent and capable. and effective Afghan special operators. were I had no idea you know I didn't I.

did not realize it until I started. Contracting for the agency in in we. tried that when I was a seal we weren't. trained in that kind of right operations. and it it just fell short it didn't go. great but then when I. when I went to the agency and I saw some. of the the GB teams and the the Afghan. teams that they were training. I was. I had never seen it I was I I was just.

like holy [ __ ] these guys are switched. the [ __ ] on they really are they're. kidded out they know what they're doing. they're dedicated. and it's more dedicated than some of the. Americans that I was working with no I. agree man like one of the characters in. my book his name is nazan and Sergeant. First Class nazam nazami and you know. he's a big part of the book and he's a. big part of my life I met him in 2010. when we were doing that Village. stability Mission I was telling you. about and the thing about nazam you know. this was a guy just to give you and when.

you talk about the relationships right. so his father was a mujadin fighter he's. Uzbek and he was killed when nazam was I. think four months old and then like a. couple of days later Mig Fighters. bombed nazam's Village and his house. collapsed on top of him everybody ran. out they forgot the baby nazam was. covered in debris they dug him out not a. scratch on him right he was his mom was. sold into slavery to a man that was like. three times her age he hated nazam so.

much he wouldn't even let him sleep in. the house he slept in a barn until he. was 11. ran away from home lived on the. streets of takar and when he was 17 in. this Afghan National Army stood up that. we talked about when the NATO forces. came in he joined it and it was all he. ever wanted to do because it was for him. it was a home he had never had a home to. call his own you know his his aunt. called him the backpack man. because he just moved around with his. backpack as a kid but but he found a. home in the Army and then he joined when. he saw these Green Berets walking onto.

the base where he was working as a. combat engineer private just cleaning. the floors and you know really doing. nothing he saw these Commandos come. walking onto the base with these at. bearded SF guys and he looked at his. buddies like man I want to do that and. and and his buddy was like the sergeant. will sit on you if you even try to do. that don't even try it so he told the. sergeant he had to take a piss. because they announced that they were. going to meet in the in the classroom if. you were interested in the recruiting. the sergeant the mess hall Sergeant he.

was working for locked the door so none. of the none of the Afghan privates could. get out and go to the meeting. so he told the fat Sergeant he said I. gotta piss. and Sergeant's like screw you man get. back to where you know I really gotta. piss. Ed and and he was like all right so he. opens the door and the second he opened. the door nazam bolted. you know yeah he ran into that room. sprinting and. that everybody turned around and looked. at him now he's like five foot nothing. weighs like a bucko five soaking wet he.

had to wear women's high heels. just to meet the height requirements are. you sick I'm not even kidding and the. recruiter thought it was so funny. that he that he let him in. but like he ran into that room you know. this is a guy who had lost everything he. had lived on the streets he had never. had a home to call his own and he. sprinted into that room with the. Commandos and he's and he sat down and. he never left you know he became a. Commando he became Afghan Special Forces.

he went to our Q course he went to the. Green Beret Q course at Fort Bragg he. was shot through the face. when he turned around to tell the SF. guys behind him ambush. and was back in the fight three weeks. later. he was shot in the chest plate three. times by ISIS in a unilateral strike you. know that they ended up winning. that's the kind of guy. that every almost every one of these. Commandos Special Forces kka. were and horror. and and the level of trust and loyalty.

and love between them and their American. advisors. that was one of the hardest things to. write in this book was to put it into. words damn. it's a perfect description. let's take a quick break and when we. come back I'd like to talk about Afghan. culture under Taliban rule sure. I used to live in Florida and when I. lived in Florida I learned a very. valuable lesson going through hurricane.

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because there's so much programmed under. the Quran believing that every every. person they kill that's a Believer or. non-believer they believe they're. getting more rewards for when they get. to heaven. I had everything I wanted didn't mean. nothing to me anymore all I could. remember was children Starving Children. hungry.

they stopped us on the road and they. said Sam you've got to come quickly you. got to come quickly you know so we're. running through the jungle me and a few. guys and we have our guns and you know. animal bags on and everything and here. was a big tree. and these Rebels nailed children to the. tree. there was a time that Coney was coming. in to South Sudan Juba I went there with. one of my sniper rifles I was going to.

greet him on the road. they said we just figured out who you. are there's no way you're going to be. able to do this Crusade Coney called the. radio station said if you do this. Crusade he's coming here to kill you why. done the Crusade with a grenade in each. pocket and a pistol on my back. and I was one of them that he said he. was going to kill that he hasn't.

all right Scott we're back from the. break. let's talk about what Afghan culture. under Sharia law. looks like what did it look like before. we got there and and. you know where I'm going with this yeah. I mean. one of the problems people you know we. try to do the postmortem on what. happened in Afghanistan and we'll be. doing that for years I'm sure but one of.

the things that I've always contended is. that I don't feel like we we got deep. enough on Afghanistan and what makes it. tick at a civil society level at all you. know and and what I mean by that is we. tried to put a square peg in a round. hole with Afghanistan we tried to make. it a like a top-down liberal democracy. and that's just not how that that. culture it's not how that Society is set. up it's not how it's operated the way to. you know maybe think about Afghanistan. is. um you know it is it's what they call a.

status Society in many ways it's it's a. it's a it's a it's a society where it's. Tribal. uh in many ways it's a clan honor-based. Society so in other words the way that. that that country operates is in groups. and Clans and tribes that's how they and. it's all about honor and shame and the. reason you see that in places like. Afghanistan is that there's a huge. amount of resource scarcity so the way. that you survive and that you navigate. the world is you form groups you form. Clans you form tribes or qualms and.

that's how you survive that's how you. acquire that's how you protect your. resources and it's a code of honor. that allows that Collective to function. that allows that Collective to maintain. its resources acquire new resources. protect against other groups trying to. take your resources every mammal on the. planet has some version of this. and we all come from societies that do. that Afghanistan in many ways is still.

very true to that if you go four feet. off the pavement of Ring Road the one. paved Road in that country. you're going to hit status Society. I don't care which direction you go. the urban areas like Kabul Kandahar. jalalabad. tend to be more Progressive you tend to. see what they call contract society. which is what you and I know more. readily you know some version of uh. capitalism some version of you know in. this case there was a democracy that we. helped instill but it's more of a modern.

society that kind of focuses on the. individual not so much the group. so you know when you saw the United. States come in there let's back up so. the the the the the reality in. Afghanistan is that this this was a. country largely status ruled by a. monarchy for years and then in the 70s. was you know the Soviets came in and. toppled all of that and they really. targeted that rural leadership structure. the status Society the the landed land.

owning Elders from these tribes were. targeted primarily by the Soviets and. they were either killed or pushed out of. the country and so the Soviet occupation. really flipped that whole country on its. head and how it governed itself and you. know it created an Insurgency that. lasted and uh for quite a few years and. then once they were pushed out these. Warlords came in and filled the Gap why. because the tribal societies had been. decimated by the Soviets the the. resilience of that country.

had been decimated and you know the. thing is Sean like a lot of people don't. know that like Kabul in the 1970s was a. very Progressive City like women walked. around in mini skirts there were disco. texts there were hippies bouncing around. the The Plains of Northern Afghanistan. smoking dope like it was I mean you. still had the rural issues but it was a. pretty Progressive Society. and it was the Soviet occupation that.

set all that going backwards people. think that Afghanistan has been like. this backward land and in some ways it. is very status but it was pretty darn. Progressive in the 70s you know. interesting I did actually didn't know. that absolutely and and it uh it went. backward under the Soviet and it that. started like a 40-year cycle of violence. that just pulled apart the fabric of. that Society at both an informal and. formal Civil Society level what I mean. by that is so the rural tribes The.

Villages that we're used to handling. their own Affairs and just had like a. loose affiliation with the government. they were decimated they forgot how to. farm they forgot how to resolve disputes. all of the elders who normally LED those. things were either killed displaced or. were in hiding at the same time the. governmental structures were destroyed. by the Soviet occupation and in the. Civil War that followed these these. Warlords like dostam and Atta they came. in and they filled the Gap this security.

Gap and then the governance Gap and the. development Gap and it was all patronage. and it was this Warlord. type approach that went on and the Civil. War was awful it was worse than the. Soviet occupation. you know and that lasted well into the. 90s Soviets left in 89 you know so then. you had the the Warlords come in the. Civil War it decimated the country even. more than the Soviets. and that is what led to the influx of. the Taliban you know the Taliban were.

trained in Pakistani madrasas uh. Pakistan's isi their intelligence. service had a lot to do with the. emergence of that group The wahhabi. mosques from the uh from the Saudis. years press but the point is the Taliban. came into the country because the people. in Afghanistan needed a security. solution. that was better than these Warlords you. couldn't go 20 meters According to some. of my friends without hitting a. checkpoint every 20 meters where you.

were shaking down damn yeah and so the. Taliban at first were welcomed with open. arms because they brought in a level of. security brutal and then they also. brought in a very very strict. uh application of sharia law you know. they had the ministry for virtue and. vice which was like where these women. went out unescorted they were beaten. stoned so you saw this Draconian. governance of the Taliban but you know. people endured it because it was a.

better security situation and uh I think. probably I don't know. had the Taliban not allowed Al Qaeda to. come in country and strike us I mean. that system may have stayed you know. what I mean like people were enduring it. um. and I think today you're right back at. the same level of brutality that you. said I mean you know when that. when that pull out started yeah I had. friends sending me.

videos of what they were doing to our to. our guys and yeah and pictures and by me. and our guys I mean our Commandos yeah. our partners that are over there yeah. it's terrible I'm still at one. there must have been 20 Commandos lined. up yeah you know hands behind their back. and they were just putting one round in. the back of every one of their heads. just going down the line it looked like. yep it looked like [ __ ] World War II. yeah you know in the concentration camp. and.

thank you. and and those are our people yeah and we. trained them and had relationships with. them for years and you know the thing it. really is to me. is so egregious about this is that in. you know in the Special Operations. Community certainly in the Special. Forces Community there is an implicit. promise in partner work. which is I have your back. you know and we we are raised to know. that and and and. execute on that.

at a very early age in Special Forces. like it's in for us and Robin sage it's. it's just grilled into you and our our. operators for decades uh worked off that. I have your back and and it was just. understood so if Commando unit went in. on a mission there were SF guys right. there at their shoulder if the kka went. on a mission there were Rangers or seals. right there at their shoulder like it. was just understood and then all of a. sudden. you know really under two political.

administrations this this desire to just. get out of the country to get out of the. war. completely dismissed. this these deep relationships that were. in place and frankly that we bled for. for 20 years so that we didn't have. another 911 so that we wouldn't have to. rely on the over the horizon attacks. that failed so miserably to prevent 9. 11. you know we had built this ground. Intel Network we had built these. phenomenal Partners now granted the.

larger Afghan Army and the police raft. with corruption and desertions and they. had all kinds of problems yeah but you. know. it takes time to build those kinds of. capacities but the Commandos were. carrying the load the soft were carrying. the load and in in June of last year. we completely pulled all of their. contract support you know we pulled out. all the contractors without warning now. why does that matter when people are. saying that the Afghans didn't fight.

that they did that's just a complete. false narrative remember that we built. these Commandos these kka these special. forces in our own image. like we if you looked at a another group. as the national mine reduction group The. nmrg Who actually protected us from. Insider attacks they slept in our. compounds with us that's how much trust. there was yeah right. um they would trade their life for hours. you know to block an IED to sweep a road. for seals and SF dudes but all of these.

groups you know I mean we had built such. a capacity with them but we built them. in our own image like if you looked at. them they had their hats cocked up on. their head they had all the kit they're. dipping Copenhagen they go in they do. their mission planning like we do they. they you know three to one ratio. overwhelming operational fires Precision. fires to saturate the target all of that. to keep the Taliban off guard you know. and punch them in the face and hit them. hard and you don't know where they're. coming from next that's how Afghan soft. operated and they're very good at it but.

they were reliant on the same things you. and I were reliant on surgical platforms. operational fires Medevac you know. Optics and and tricked out weapons all. of those things that gave you that edge. night vision goggles. we pulled all of the country contract. support so they had no operational fires. they had no surgical strike they had no. Medevac. damn you know air Medevac and this. happened in June right so this was after.

Province after Province was already. falling generals were deserting and then. all of a sudden you pull their contract. support. you know everything that gave them a. decisive competitive advantage over the. Taliban was removed it literally just. chopped the legs up we took their legs. right out from underground and then and. then when they started calling saying. okay we're holding the line I mean. there's a guy in the book I talk about. his name's Bashir it's not his real name. he was an Afghan Commando Afghan Special. Forces and a q course graduate went was.

at Camp Moorhead was the liaison to all. the Special Forces teams that came. through there. for years his house was right outside. Camp Moorhead he stayed on Moorhead. until the Taliban were literally at the. gates his his guys killed in him killed. 14 Taliban on 15 August. you know at the ammunition Supply point. up in a tower a sniper took out 14 dudes. and and they stayed on target even after. all the generals and officers left they. stayed and were calling us. saying sir what do I do you know my. family's over here if I don't go to my.

family soon they're going to be killed. I'm willing to fight tell me what to do. and they're calling retired guys because. no one in the in the government was. picking up the phone or authorized here. it was maddening. it's heartbreaking yeah. do you want to talk a little bit about. the Headway that Afghanistan made with. women's rights yeah and schooling and. all the good things that happened. because we were there and then we'll get.

into then we'll get into sure I think. that's an important point and I. appreciate you bringing it up because. you hear a lot. after what happened in the collapse of. what was the point what was it all for I. can't tell you how many. gold star families contacted me on. August 15th. just through tears asking Scott what. what'd he die for. you know buddies that called me and you. may have had the same thing like. dude won't sell this for like what was.

the point and it was and it was you know. and I I have to admit I asked myself. those questions as well and I still see. a lot of that. you know in LinkedIn and and I get it. but I think. you have to step back from that and. really I don't think it was in vain at. all I don't think the 20 years of. sacrifice in that in in that country was. in vain and here's why I'll hit it on a. couple levels first of all the primary. mission was to.

dismantle Al-Qaeda and prevent them from. launching another strategic attack on. the west or the United States and I feel. like our forces did that you know the. al-Qaeda had a few other attempts but. for the most part for 20 years the West. enjoyed relative peace and lack of. al-Qaeda influence at the scale at which. they were capable of striking when 9 11. hit. and I think you have to attribute that. to your brothers.

and my brothers and everybody. conventional forces that. served there. to keep that organization off balance at. Bay and frankly the Afghan Commandos and. special ops they picked up the mantle. starting in 2014 when oef officially. ended operation enduring freedom and it. became an afghan-led Endeavor and again. you never hear that but they they took. the lead so Al Qaeda was kept really off. balance and unable to strike at a. strategic level for 20 years.

but also. you had. I think the numbers close to 8 million. boys and girls that attended School. you had 20 years of relative stability. in that country a time for informal. Civil Society to get its feet under it. again for farming to re-establish itself. and I saw this through the village. stability program through local. agriculture dispute resolution. mechanisms for that to start to you know. to find its way again you started to see.

elements of governance and economic. development in that country now granted. The graft and Corruption and I think. frankly Western biases that we brought. in the industrial War complex it. overshadowed a lot of that but I don't. think you can ignore the fact that a lot. of these resilience systems did start to. emanate out. it looks as if they're gone now as if. the Taliban have taken it over I think. the Taliban have a very fragile grasp on.

power. really I do why do you think that well. first of all they're not good at. governing they suck at governing the. Draconian measures that they're putting. in place are as bad or worse than what. they did before 9 11 but here's the. difference you didn't have 8 million. young men and women that had attended. School. back then you didn't have the millions. of Afghans who had endured some level of. relative stability opportunity.

it's particularly in the urban areas. that you have now you didn't you didn't. have uzbek's hazaras and tajiks who had. finally enjoyed periods of. non-persecution uh positives so there. were a whole lot of social factors that. were enabled. to find some level of resilience in that. 20-year period And I tell soldiers. Marines seals Navy corpsman listen. you held space.

for these local Civil Society systems at. formal and informal levels to try to get. their feet on the ground. and I don't think we've seen the end of. it I don't think the Taliban have a good. hold on power I tell you that because I. still have a lot of good contacts in the. country with Commandos and so we talk to. them all the time with our volunteer. groups. um there is an Afghan American need to. introduce you to this guy named Legend. former Army Intel NCO.

who went back into Afghanistan he was. featured on Fox News early went back in. there helped his family get out from. under the Taliban he just went back in. again and just came out but has been. working with the within with the. resistance wow I did a podcast interview. with him and I have to tell you what he. was telling me is yes the Taliban have a. I mean they've got a death grip on. things but the resistance is really. starting to rise in that country really. in the pancher valley and bombian even. in the South you're starting to see the. resistance a lot of them are Commandos.

special forces their ability to resist. is vastly better yeah than what it was. now granted they've been you know. they're they're beat down the Afghan so. far they feel abandoned. and I think that we're going to have to. give them some support. but I will tell you here's here's how I. see it I would not count the Afghan. people out I don't think we've heard the. end of this I think that what we did in. that country for 20 years and held that. space. is going to be manifested in what.

happens now and going forward with how. these Afghans this generation of Afghans. decide their future and a lot of it's. going to be without us and that's okay. you know we need to support them I think. similar to what we're doing with Ukraine. I don't think we have to put boots on. the ground. but we need to give them more support. than what we're giving now. yeah why do you think it happened the. way it did. when it's you know it seemed like.

to me it seemed like it was a spur of. the moment decision with zero planning. which turned into a complete [ __ ]. disaster yeah I think there's multiple. contributing factors I'll tell you the. ones that I think are so relevant it to. me is one is our we have become so. factioned in this country and so divided. in how we deal with problems like you. know the the the the polarization. between left and right for example has.

gotten so pervasive that the the leaders. that we now have in politics. um diplomacy and even military I think. it's careerist you see leaders that are. trying to you know take care of. themselves or trying to take care of. their small group. versus the greater good and I think if. you look at how things went down under. the Trump Administration under by. Administration like it was it was more. about. one party versus the other then looking.

at the problem itself you contrast that. Tim I know we're going to talk about. this in a bit but like in pineapple you. know I went back through the signal chat. room where we had 150 Volunteers in this. signal chat room for like days and days. and days on end Biden was mentioned one. time Trump never. and all those tens of thousands of chats. wow that's a that's unheard of right. but it's our veterans showing us what. leadership looks like when it's hard. yeah and what we should be doing and I.

just think that we've moved away from. our ability to look at the at the. greater good so that's one problem the. other one is I think our politicians. our senior military leaders and our. diplomats are not listening to the guys. on the ground we're just not listening. to them to to withdraw the way that we. did to close biogram Airfield to not. have any Special Forces teams on the. ground in the last 90 days leading up to. the pullout to at least get them cached. and ready to fight. you know. um to to not consult with the Special.

Operations community on how to do the. Neo before you do it like none of that. makes any sense you know we've stopped. listening to The Operators that we put. on the ground the final thing I'll say. as to a why that we've got to get to. through I think hearings and. accountability we have a systemic. problem in this country of abandoning. our partners that goes all the way back. to Vietnam the mountain yards if you. talk to a fifth Group Green Beret today. who fought in Vietnam who worked with.

the mountain yards in the central. Highlands they'll just start crying. because of the moral injury that they. still carry 50 years later for. abandoning their partners and being. forced to do that the Kurds in Syria. uh the Iraqi police and army. and most recently the Afghans like we. have a multi-generational reputation. for abandoning our friends when it gets. hard damn. you're right. and if we don't get that fixed I mean.

what country in the world is going to. want to partner with us you know and my. thing is like okay Russia China North. Korea near Pier I know we got to focus. on that and people are saying we need to. get out of Afghanistan so we can focus. on the near peer threat but but do we. really think that we're going to take. those countries on unilaterally. you know it's going to be by with and. through it's going to be with surrogates. with Partners like the ukrainians but. right now you know we're not really in. Ukraine we're we're doing it from the. edges and I honestly believe that if we.

don't start restoring. the social capital that we've damaged. from these abandonments. when it really comes down to time for. needing a partner they're not going to. be there. you know if you do this with your. friends if you and I had a reputation of. just bailing on our friends every time. they were in trouble yeah how would that. work out for you. not not good nation states are no. different. but yet somehow we think that it's it's. excusable why do you think we continue.

to do that I mean when we left. when World War II was over we still have. bases in Germany and Holland and Belgium. and right Spain. in Japan all over the place right you. know and and why didn't we leave. I just don't understand why we. why we didn't leave at least some. infrastructure there in case we need to. go back well I mean it's just. yep I think to me that's common sense we.

even have it's a great question and I. think it's a question that needs to be. answered formally like we need to answer. this through there has been one public. hearing with Congress about Afghanistan. since all this happened one everyone has. been behind closed doors like there need. to be that question needs to be asked. publicly and there needs to be some. accountability on it because. Sean we have the capability In a Special. Operations community of this thing. called foreign internal defense or fid. and it's a capacity building.

approach where you go into at-risk. undergoverned countries and you build. partner capacity right you don't need a. hundred thousand dudes to do it like we. did in Afghanistan in Iraq a small. residual Force like SF. or the marine Special Ops who are. trained expeditionary diplomats and let. them go in there over the long we've. been in Columbia for 50 plus years and. no one knows that but you've had seventh. group guys down there 365 24 7 and seals. for 50 years building the Colombian.

special ops capability you know and even. in the 90s when I started working there. the Colombians wouldn't leave the base. you know but now they they they fly at. night they were actually advising. Afghans in Afghanistan and they flew. Afghans over to Colombia to see what. they were doing but it took decades you. know and we don't think about the long. game anymore you know and the reality is. if we're going to set up antibodies to. Violent extremism like Isis Al-Qaeda or. even be a buffer to the to the Russians.

and the Chinese local approaches local. resilience is going to be key and. building that capacity from the ground. up so back to your question why didn't. we I mean you had the general officers. like Millie Miller so saying hey a 2500. person reforce residual force and. Country to include a CT capability is. essential what I'm disappointed in those. generals and others is they did not. recommend a fid. capability as well like yes you should.

have like a hammer. you know I don't know half a squadron of. of seals or. Delta but you should also have SF guys. and other advisors working with the. Commandos working with the kka so that. you have that that capacity because. they're the ones really doing the the. Striking. so I'm thinking 5K. we could have maintained that for you. know an indefinite period of time in. Afghanistan it would have held yeah but. no one brought that up and the other.

thing that really bothers me about it is. I don't think that our senior leaders in. the military they said it but then when. they say the answer was no okay. and I think personally there should have. been some stars on the table. yeah resignations over that because that. any special operator worked their salt. who's senior in this game knows. How This Ends yeah.

not to change the subject and right. after this we'll get into we'll get into. what you did. um but on the topic of China you know it. did come up China was quick to. it seemed to me that China was quick to. pick up where we left off yeah with the. lithium. do you think. I mean with all the contacts that you. still have over there what does that. influence look like are they are the. Chinese coming in and yeah they sure are.

they sure are so talking to Legend and. and some of the other uh contacts there. there's clearly a Chinese presence in. the country that I've heard that they're. all over Bagram. um I've heard that they're you know that. their access and placement to minerals. has gone even higher. um you know they're they are they are. certainly including in increasing their. influence in that country particularly. around natural resources. same with the Russians the Russians are. also trying to expand their influence.

but here's the only thing I would say. about that Afghanistan is one of these. countries that you know the Taliban May. establish friendly relations with. certain nation states that that counter. our goals like Russia or China. but those entities still have to operate. in the rural areas and they're no better. at it than we are they're probably worse. you know Russia. you know they had plenty of years in. Afghanistan to try their hand at it and. they were terrible they they abused the. local populations killed over a million.

Afghans like they were terrible. um and you know you just had an. explosion outside the Russian Embassy. that killed several Russians you know so. I don't think any of these countries. will have an easy go of it however I do. think that the Taliban are giving. favored status to the Iranians the. Russians and the Chinese and if our. reason for getting out of Afghanistan. was to get into the near peer threat. yeah we left all the near peer. opportunities on The Afghan Battlefield.

what a disaster. how that calculus works is beyond me I. just I just can't fathom how any. politician bureaucrat or senior military. officer or diplomat. looks at that and and says well that's. okay. let's just bail it's like there was not. even so much of a thought that went into. it I don't think there was the execution. in fact in the book I talked about this. on August 14th.

the. National Security Council issued a. memorandum for evacuation priority on. the 14th of August. one day before the collapse was when the. NSC actually issued a memorandum of. evacuation priority so you tell me. unbelievable. unbelievable yeah. let's take another quick break when we. come back talk about how you got. contacted.

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all right Scott let's get into the. actual Afghan withdrawal when when did. you hear from. Nissan yes. so nazam and I you know we stayed in. touch I retired in 2013. I met him in. 2010. and I I retired really uh earlier than I. thought I would. I've been selected for a battalion. command but it wasn't in Special Forces. and honestly I just did not like where.

things were going in Afghanistan. I had seen levels of careerism and the. pull out of the village program that I'd. helped put in place we were we were we. were now abandoning that program as a. precursor to what would actually happen. in the country and all of those. villagers we had worked with were being. hunted or a lot of them and killed so I. left and I I pursued another Direction. in my life outside of Special Ops and. and I really had no interest in. Afghanistan again other than just um. moving on and and but and the.

relationships that I had like nazam so. we stayed in touch we would call each. other a couple of times a year but it. was really in the late spring early. summer. of last year of 2021 that I started to. hear from nazam on a more frequent basis. and you know I had been one of the guys. among several who was helping him with. his special immigration visa or the SIV. he had left the Commandos he'd left the. a a we'd kind of talked him out of you.

know getting out talked him into getting. out because he had seen so much trauma. seven years of non-stop fighting. um. I want to go back for just a second. because we had a conversation offline. about that you know when we go in. whether it's an SF unit of Steel unit. Rangers conventional whoever yeah we go. in for a period of time right then we. come home and we take a break even if. that break is training you're still. in a sovereign country with great. amenities these guys.

are there for seven years straight they. never get a break you know you could. take a guy that has a 23 career 23-year. career like yourself. at most half of that you know was over. there for those guys it's all it would. have been all 23 years every single day. in that environment fighting every day. and they just don't get a break and. that's true for our interpreters it's. certainly true for the Afghan special. operators and the nmrg the national mine.

reduction group the guys who kept us. safe. all those cats and they're a small. fraction of the Afghan military but they. They Carried 98 of the load was the. estimate with the last couple of years. in the war and and you know we would rip. in and rip out as they call it relief in. place right so you'd you know you'd have. this hand over this high five between. your unit and mine. no such thing for them so you're running. combat operations straight with no break.

no leave. and you think about the toll that that. takes on one's body one's mental health. and that's where Nissan was he was you. know he was at a place where the night. terrors were getting so bad and he would. talk to me about him on the phone and so. we. a handful of us talked him into getting. out becoming a contractor he was. guarding infrastructure when all this. happened and uh trying to get his SIV. and it had been a year and there was no. movement on it from the state department. like so many other applicants.

and he was texting me on Signal which is. how he communicated and we would talk on. the phone some on Signal and he was. saying something's really wrong you know. by this time the Biden Administration. was in charge they were pretty much. executing uh president Trump's Doha. agreement and. that excluded the Afghan government. completely. that deal so the Afghan government. wasn't even in this so what do you think. they're doing what was that deal so the. deal basically was a set of terms. between the United States and the.

Taliban okay right so this this. assumption that Taliban are going to. take over but there were conditions that. had to be met right and and if they did. meet those conditions then we'd go back. in or whatever but President Biden's. Administration pretty much took that. same deal and just went full board and. and but the Afghan government was not. included in the deal so you know they're. doing all of the self-preservation. things that you would think that an. already corrupt government was doing you. know they were pocketing the money. sending it to Dubai sending their.

families out and people like nazam you. know are carrying the load like they're. the ones that got it on their shoulders. and as their leaders are are pulling. money out and skimming and getting ready. to make their play including president. ghani. um the the Afghan special operators uh. who have no pathway. other than what we're talking about. um we're carrying the load so nizam was. texting me and he was basically saying. sir. Province after province is falling I can.

go back and look at my signal thread and. it was like one Province after another. and what the Taliban were doing Sean it. was brilliant I mean it was the ultimate. psyop. is they knew that if they could go into. the urban District centers and capture. it for 24 hours it would make CNN and. fox and it would look like the whole. District was captured they could send. targeted tax threads to certain. individuals in the Afghan Army and the. police pictures of their kids and they. dropped their weapons and they're done.

and that's what they were doing these. targeted campaigns leading up to the. collapse they were already psyoping the. whole country nazam was getting text. threads from the Taliban saying we know. exactly where you are we know who you. are we know you went to the Q course and. we're coming for you holy [ __ ]. that's [ __ ] scary it is it is and. they were saying you're not gonna you. know we're not giving you any Sanctuary. power we're gonna cut your head off. you know and and so. and he told me he said he said sir I'm.

not afraid of dying. he goes I just don't want to die alone. and everybody's gone. you know and and for him it became just. he was isolated he was ended up hiding. out in his uncle's house like Anne Frank. and Cobble his uncle's getting ready to. toss him because the Taliban appearing. through the window you know trying to. find out if he's in there he's putting. the uncle's family at risk you know this. was after the country started to. collapse but it was just a slow lead up. starting in June of Province after.

Province and meanwhile you've got people. in our government Lincoln Biden. um Millie saying no it's going to hold. and nazan is and the others inside the. country are saying this thing flips in a. month. and so the special ops Community both. active duty I can't say enough about. those guys I can't like our brothers. that were on active duty ncos and Junior. officers that they really risked their. careers to keep people alive a lot of.

them but they started mobilizing and the. veterans started mobilizing like I. started getting calls in June. from Mark newch you know from The Horse. Soldiers and others saying hey man. are you hearing what I'm hearing because. something's wrong like we got to start. moving and so there was already. some movement underway in the soft. Community because we saw it coming. we saw it coming. what was that what was that initial. phone call like with.

with nazam yeah. I think for me the phone call that. really got me was that was after the. after the collapse you know and I'm and. I don't really watch 24-hour news. but I was watching it on the because my. buddy called me Steve who I served with. in seventh group and he was like turn. the news on man. so I turn it on and there's the Taliban. you know. strutting around Cobble.

in our gear our kit. our m-force with Optics driving our. vehicles. Afghan vehicles that we had given to. them I mean it was like. it was the most devastating. just it was just it was humiliating yeah. to watch that so that coupled with. the call that I knew was coming. from nazam and he said sir they're. they're looking in my window right now. and he's like I'm not gonna make it.

and. for me in that moment. all I could think about were you know. the 23 buddies that I'd lost over the. years over 20 years. over my buddy you know Romy Camargo. who's a warrant officer in SF who's. paralyzed from the neck down he's on a. ventilator. you know. so many of my friends have taken their. lives and I just thought. [ __ ] man.

you know how. why does this kid have to die like it's. not right. and and everything in my life in that. war came down to him. and whether he lived or died that was it. I didn't give a [ __ ] about anything else. I just didn't it was like. he has to live you know he there's. somehow he's got to make it through this. because then maybe something good Could. Happen out of all this.

yeah what did you say to him after he. told you that. I felt like I just needed to say. something that would you know kind of. get his hopes up. and keep him you know in the game. because that was my biggest fear was. that he was gonna because you could tell. man he was starting to feel it yeah I. mean who wouldn't. you're like. you you're completely abandoned like. everybody that you thought was your. family is gone. and. I said to him something to the effect of.

look you're not gonna die alone you're. not going to die at all. um we're gonna get you out man you're. going to get across that City you're. going to get through the crowd you're. going to get past the Taliban you're. going to get past the Marines. You're Never Gonna Get You On A Plane. you're going to come to the states. um you're gonna. you're gonna live next to me we're gonna. be neighbors I remember saying that you. said that I did because I just I needed. to say something that would just give. him some kind of hope. but then and he kind of allowed here's.

this hyena-like laugh this little. high-pitched laugh and he's like okay. sir. and we hung up the phone. and I just looked at my wife. and I was like what did I just do. I just I just made him a promise that I. don't I don't know if I can keep it. and my wife said you'll keep it. you'll get back to you oh 100. and you know we had tried so hard to put.

the war behind us. with our play and everything else that. we had done I didn't want to get. involved in this thing I just I really. didn't but at that point I knew I was I. was in and I was in pretty deep. and and and so I just started calling. buddies that knew nazam. that had fought with nazam. that knew him the way I knew him some of. them were on active duty some of them. were retired. um not that many like five. you know. and.

um. we decided to do it we decided let's try. to get him out you know and that there's. no way we could get over there and that. wasn't gonna happen plus we'd just get. in the way. um. so we decided to to just do it remote. you know could we leverage our networks. could we leverage our relationships. inside Kabul International Airport you. know could we could we use the jamiyat. islami network to get him a cab to move. him through the city like so we just. started putting a plan together and. where did you start. I started by um I mean that's a that's a.

huge. that's a lot of logistics. yeah and uh around the world it was. overwhelming in the sense of like you. know because here's the thing it's like. you know in. um my role in Special Forces over the. years like I did have the opportunity to. you know obviously work alongside. Commandos and and and and tactical. missions but a lot of what I did in the. latter years of my life in SF in. Afghanistan was to command and control. remote operations and special forces and.

seals and other groups and I was pretty. good at it like that was what I did I. ran those operation centers I planned. executed controlled missions and I lost. a lot of friends doing that [ __ ]. that were on that that died doing what I. asked him to do or what they counted on. me to help them do you know and and you. know. you don't get over that like you know. you never you never forget that and and. I didn't care if I ever did that again. because there's just something because. you're so you're away from it but yet.

you're hearing their voices over the. rate and it's the stuff that you're. supposed that medevac's supposed to be. there that aircraft's supposed to be. there those enemy forces weren't. supposed to be there. you know and. it was right back at that again except. this time no resources No Authority no. ISR. no access and placement none of the. things that you need to command and. control a good operation yeah you got. none of it.

you know and this kid is putting. everything in US. that that almost got me. so I like you said I didn't really know. where to start I just know I just needed. to start so I went to my office and I. drew a course of action sketch on the. board. you know I started with a safe house uh. the map I had just a rough map I kind of. had of the area you know I indicated. Taliban checkpoints along trying to just. think of what were the things just at. like at a templated level that he was. going to face from his safe house all. the way to the United States.

and and I once I did that though I. actually felt better once I got it up on. the board I'm like oh my God like this. is impossible but at least I see what it. is and then I took a picture of it sent. it to the other guys and they're like. and we can start talking about something. that was tangible at that point even. though it was extremely difficult and we. just started breaking it up into chunks. like okay like how are we going to move. them across the city. and I was and I was thinking well I've. got a good set of relationships in Kabul. you know the jamiet islami network the.

northern old Northern Alliance network. of mujadin Fighters like it's still. strong and and I know people that are. connected to that we could get him a cab. that'll move him with a costume driver. that knows the area that has done the. routes and we did and then it just we. just took it chunk by chunk you know we. were like well he can move through the. crowd he's a freaking Commando like. he'll get and he's little. you know but what about how are we going. to get him past the guards you know what. who do we need to talk to there what are. we going to do that he doesn't have a.

Visa like how are we going to get him. manifested and people just took. different chunks of it and you know we. do what we do was everybody. Special Operations that was involved no. um Congressman Mike Walsh who is Special. Forces and is a friend of mine we we. fought together in Afghanistan I called. him. um and he he actually loaned us his uh. one of his um staffers. uh her name is Liv in the book we. changed her name. but she could you know I knew we were.

going to need to kind of breach some. doors on the political side and come in. with some juice wow and live agreed at. the time now remember all a lot of. Congress Congressional officials were. getting involved they were getting calls. from constituents so there were all. these little command centers I mean even. in the Joint Chiefs of Staff the War. Room was silent. but the generals and Admirals had little. command centers running with their aides.

operating it's the craziest thing. everybody was doing this on the down low. you know trying to help their Afghan get. out and it was admirable but it was. chaotic yeah so we got access to to live. one other uh reporter who was a. Washington Insider uh who had different. relationships but also knew nazam named. James. um and that was our team and then three. SF dudes Muller Mike who was a battalion. commander in Special Forces active duty.

that had fought with nazam uh another. guy uh now I call Charles he was in the. he was in an interagency task force up. in DC so he had good access and. placement and me. um and that was our team starting out. wow wow and it was super informal like. we were all in different places. you know we had and it it wasn't a task. force or anything like that it was just. it was just a group of guys trying to. help a friend how fast was this all. developing within minutes I mean it was. going it was this was around the 15th.

and he got out on the 19th. so you know Cobble fell on the 15th and. it fell hard and then you had the rush. to the airport it became readily. apparent. to everybody in Kabul that if you were. getting not just in Kabul Afghanistan if. you were getting out. it was at Kabul International Airport. that was your only hope yeah so you can. imagine how the crowds you know they. swell really fast yeah and so we had to. uh in fact one of the things Muller Mike.

who had been nazam's uh kind of. Commander at one of the firebases. Mike and I have worked together for. years and and we were putting together. this plan for nazam and Mike called me. and he said Scott he's got to go now. and I was like what dude we don't even. have a plan yet like he's going to burn. his Safe House his broad daylight and he. said Mike said I've got a feeling man. I'm watching the news I'm watching how. things were falling the Taliban are. actually going to be security partners. yeah with the Neo forces like if we.

don't get him in on the inside of that. Taliban ring they're going to check his. credentials and he's dead. he's got to go now. [ __ ]. because you know. we didn't have a full plan we didn't. have a way for him to get in all we had. really was a way to get him to the edges. of the Airfield. and then we were going to have to figure. out the rest as we went and that was. when it was like. [ __ ]. and so that's what we did and we told.

him brother you're gonna have to go you. got to go now. and and. he said okay sir. and I don't know man I didn't know what. was going to happen. and I think that's probably the hardest. thing about this whole thing is that so. many of us. we had we heard those words a lot. and they didn't get out. yeah they died in the Isis blast or they.

were executed or they're still there. you know it's one thing when you. you have memories of. brothers or things that happened and it. was it was bad you know like there was. you know but when they say yes sir. got it moving. and that's the last time you hear from. him. and you never get over that and that's. what this was really that's what this. really came down to like yeah we gotten. his arm out of others but there were.

thousands that were counting on us yeah. you know and we just couldn't do it it. was just too big. you know it's like my buddy Duke says it. was an Uncle Sam's size problem that we. were trying to solve with our cell. phones and checking accounts. that's a hell of a thing to put on guys. that fought for 20 years that's heavy. that is heavy yeah. but um you know we got in we got into. the Airfield and um. he is such a resilient guy well let's.

before we go into the Airfield let's. talk about as in what was I mean let's. talk about his journey how long did it. take. what was what did you do so um. you know the thing is about here's. another thing that was interesting is we. told him take pictures of all your. certificates. and and your tabs you know he went to. the Q course so he has like an SF tab. okay and the certificate of completion. and we said take pictures of all that.

send it to us we're going to upload it. on the cloud wipe your phone and burn. all that stuff. so he starts a fire out in the backyard. that's actually how my book starts is. him burning all this stuff. when he got to the SF Tab and the. certificate. he couldn't burn it. so he stuffed it down in the gym bag. and the crazy thing is I interviewed. dozens of Commandos kka Afghan Special.

Forces. not one of them burned their stuff when. we told them to they all carried it wow. and. so that's you know there was there was a. lot of preparation that went but he had. to move pretty quick when we decided to. go. um it took him it didn't take him that. long to get to the I mean the traffic. was terrible. but I think all in all a couple hours. transit in the cab to get to the. Airfield itself and then with us with.

family well so turns out he had family. we didn't know. [Laughter]. yeah. but yes with family and that became. another adventure. was and this happened a lot actually. particularly in the Special Operations. Community the even with as good as our. trust was they did not divulge to us. that they had families or who their. family members were and I understand you. know because they were highly targeted.

and um the Taliban proved that they knew. how to do that so we would learn uh the. families would actually have discussions. that the operator would make it out and. then pull them through. and that for Bashir one of the guys in. our book. um he was an operator and his wife was. nine months pregnant and went into labor. in the crowd and ended up having to move. them back to the safe house he got.

through. and she had the baby and then uh one of. our Shepherds moved her in the newborn. and others Overland to a third country. and they're still there he's still he's. a security guard at a grocery store in. Texas and he still hasn't seen the baby. girl the family's still in the third. country. are they is he going to see him again. if I have anything to do with it he will. well that's good if pineapple has. anything to do with it he will you know. we're still working it but um it's hard. I mean there's so much bureaucracy and.

those are the those are the true stories. of what. our brothers and sisters have gone. through and are going through you know. that's the it's just it's at a Humanity. level it's just so heartbreaking yeah. you know it's just one after the other. but uh you know he's he's got a good. attitude you know we're talking about. Bashir now in Texas he's got a great. attitude. um but nizam we were actually able to. get his family. to him before he evacuated inside kommel. two different.

how many how many of these guys did you. guys did Operation pineapple help so. it's always hard to put numbers on that. but we we think somewhere between 750. and a thousand that many yeah that many. people I mean directly and I think more. than that indirectly and there were. groups that did a lot more that did a. lot more than that in fact. um Mick mulroy uh worked at the agency. as well and I think now he works at one. of the news organizations he told me in. an interview he said he had a like a.

kind of a Grand View of everything he. said that of the hundred thousand. Afghans that made it here a large chunk. of them were probably shouldn't have. were not vetted yeah but the ones who. were. a very large percentage of them were. made possible by these volunteer groups. because we knew who they were we knew. where they were and they trusted us and. so if you're a marine that's amazing but. it's also pathetic that you guys were. able to outdo the US government and and.

and and helping these people it's it's. sorry oh it's no it's crazy brother and. the thing was like so after we got nizam. out we realized that we were running out. of time you know there was an imminent. departure that had already been. announced we knew Isis was in the crowd. like there was all kinds of Rumblings of. an Isis suicide bomber attack and and so. we knew we were on borrowed time to get. as many out as we could. and um. getting nizam out the way that we did. took four days.

of planning and execution we hadn't. slept and I was like there's no way you. know we now so when nazam got out people. heard about it. seals like Jay Redmond and others. um were like hey I'm working this family. and so we just opened the aperture on. the signal chat room called it task. force pineapple because that was the. code word that nazam had to give to get. through and. um. pineapple was born but but it was just a. signal chat room of these various former. special operators who had partners that.

were Commandos that they were working or. SF and and so we would collaborate in. the main chat room we would share. information about which gate was open. closed Intel coming in and then Jay for. example would go to his Afghan family. and say okay we're moving you here and. they were tactically trained so they. knew how to move tactically with their. family but we didn't have a mechanism. Sean to get large numbers in and that's. what I was I was asking the younger. leaders in our group like does anybody. have any ideas this one guy named Zach.

Green Beret. former former Green Beret turned. Syracuse inner city school teacher. that we met on LinkedIn who was helping. his SF partners. he goes I have an idea. but I need somebody on the inside and I. was like what's your idea and he goes. well. in my classrooms you know I have a lot. of inner city kids that are come from. other countries and and we talk a lot. about Harriet Tubman and Harriet Tubman. she settled in this area after she. retired and.

um I think we could build an underground. railroad. to get these people out he goes there's. a sewage system that you know an open. sewer right there and if we had someone. on the inside we could use our con our. Shepherds as we called them guys like. Jay Redmond and others who were the. volunteers working on their phones they. could be the eyes and ears and guide. their flocks of Commandos and their. families to a certain point and then. they could be pulled in. but we didn't have anybody on the inside. until Congressman waltzes.

assistant connected us with Jesse and. John from the 82nd Airborne who had. helped rescue a pregnant woman Inside. the Airfield the day prior and said. we have a four foot hole in the fence. that's been cut. and if we can do more and you guys can. vet them on your side you let us know. and so Liv offered that it and we were. like okay so we put Captain John falter. from the 82nd on the phone with Zach.

they started talking and we decided they. would become the conductors on the. Underground Railroad so the way it would. work is if you were a Commando you would. get instructions from your Shepherd who. would say you are to report to this link. up site at this point near Abigail at. this time under cover of Darkness. then we would send all of the. information on a baseball card photos of. the family number and party names to. John and Jesse in the 82nd they would. have those baseball cards on their phone. a designated time when the ex the.

Pineapple Express was open they would. walk out to the link up point with a. green Camelot on and then the uh the. flock that was in the queue would get. instructions to move into the link up. mechanism they would drop down into an. open sewage Canal move through that to. the the green Camelot and then they. would show the pineapple on their phone. Challenge and password check the. baseball card get pulled through the. four foot hole driven across the. Airfield onto the aircraft [ __ ].

amazing. amazing and that was the Pineapple. Express and what I have to tell you is. like I had nothing to do with that [ __ ]. that was these Junior leaders these like. Junior leaders that's not the right term. younger guys like Zach and John and. Jesse who they they just came up with. this stuff and I found that in my old. age one of the things about leadership. is knowing when to get out of the way. and and these guys they had a plan and. it was a beautiful plan and so that's. what we did we just turned the heat up.

on that and for 96 hours that's how the. Pineapple Express rolled and uh and we. were able to move a lot of people. through that thing and there were other. groups doing similar versions but that. was ours and the stories that I tell in. this book are all about the those people. that went into that Express the ones. that got out and the ones that didn't. that is incredible it was amazing to see. it. um you know one of the people that came. through that. um. and we didn't even know at the time like.

some of the people that were moving. through the express once it got it going. we would have others that would come. into the signal room saying hey. um one of the people was the minister. for women's Affairs Hasina Safi the most. hunted woman in Afghanistan she couldn't. get out through the state department she. couldn't get out for any other mechanism. so we ended up moving her through that. sewage canal with her family. and she got out you know the minute one. of the four female ministers in the. country moved through this four foot. hole in the fence damn how how long was.

the. sewage canal. it ran the it ran a good chunk of the. fence like I mean it was long it was. hundreds of meters long initially you. would go through the crowd and cross it. it was like just it was an obstacle it. was a linear obstacle but it was a great. reference point and it was a the Taliban. would not get down in that thing it was. so fetid and nasty yeah like you know is. this on the back side of the airport yep. okay.

on the Abbey gate side okay yeah. um and then. an Abby gay proper was really kind of. closed this four foot hole was what. afforded us the opportunity and the. Marines in the 82nd their Charlie. Company they had a great working. relationship. and and so it was this private public. partnership really between these ncos. and Junior officers on the side of the. 82nd and the Marines and NATO troops in. that area and these veteran groups or.

these veterans that were retired and. some active duty guys that were had the. relationships with their flocks so we. knew who they were we knew these were. Commandos we knew these were kka they. were highly vetted and we could present. them responsibly. to the 82nd versus all these other. people holding up their certificates and. phone calls from the president you know. all trying to get my guy in it was chaos. for them so this was an organized plan. but to your point one other thing that. I'll point out is the number of. institutional leaders that started.

calling us the volunteers is really. egregious like I got a phone call from a. special advisor to Kamala Harris. asking us to get their favorite Afghan. out. and I'm like you got Delta sitting in a. hanger man like 100 meters away yeah why. don't you just authorize them to do what. they do like and and but instead like. you're going to a 53 year old. Storyteller like you know to get your. guy out I'm like I'm not exactly a top. draft pick for personnel extraction yeah.

you know but that was what we had you. had these a lot of guys and girls that. just. had no intention of getting involved in. this. but nobody else was coming. let's just that just gave me a. Goosebumps. um. top well top. level government positions top West Wing. unbelievable unbelievable and that. wasn't the only one.

chief of the Air Force senior enlisted. advisor to the chairman like I'm talking. even more that I probably can't talk. about because of the sensitivity of the. people that got out but we had the. government coming to these groups. particularly a pineapple for sure making. requests to get their people out and I. think that's kind of what I have a. problem with too with this thing uh Sean. is that. you had these institutional leaders who.

did not. opposed the decision in any way and went. along with it and then under the table. used their personal cell phone to call. veterans that they had worked with or. turn a blind eye to their ncos to allow. them to work in. but all you're really doing is you're. Shifting the moral responsibility onto. the backs of veterans it's disgusting. it's disgusting disgusting and and these. are men and women who've already given. plenty yeah you know and and they're not.

gonna they're not gonna say no. you know and that's to me like how could. you do that. how could you ask these men and women. this this Noble fragile class of people. who are truly the moral compass of our. nation how could you put this on them. like that knowing that they can't hang. up the phone and a year later. you know like 73 percent. of veterans feel human uh betrayed 67. percent feel humiliated there's been an.

81 spike in calls to the VA hotline. since August. you know and and they've there's friends. of mine in pineapple like Perry. Blackburn who's lost his job Duke lost. his job he had a high paying job like. they've cashed in their their savings. accounts their kids education funds to. make pay for safe houses food drops we. had 20 babies born in safe houses uh in. operation recovery uh a group that was. paying for the our manifest to keep them.

alive through the winter and all the all. the money to do that none of it came. from the government. to keep these thousands of people alive. that didn't get out over the winter it. came from donations it came from private. checking accounts and no one talks about. that but you think about the the level. of stress and load that that puts on a a. ranger NCO to try to keep his kka. Partners alive when they're being hunted. yeah you can't hang up the phone there's. no release shift he doesn't have the. resources to do it so he takes his own.

personal resources he's re-traumatized. all the stuff that he thought he had put. behind him is now back he's sitting at. his breakfast table with his kids. looking at execution videos yeah. you know it's it's it's it's it's. serious and I think we're on the edge of. a moral injury nightmare. in our veteran population if we don't. address this at the public level yeah. definitely it's it's. unbelievable the level of competence.

that is running this country right now. it's staggering but at the same time you. know one of the things that I take hard. in is that. man was it the best in America that. stepped up yeah you know was it it just. absolutely and not all veterans there. were civilians in there active duty. people but just to me just the best in. our country. who saw that institutional leadership. failed nobody else is coming. I'll do it you know and and you know. there wasn't a day that went by that I. didn't feel just completely out over my.

skis you know like I have no idea what. I'm doing right now I have no clue how. we're gonna do this you know and. but yet. looking at the the men and women that. step forward is one of the proudest. moments of my life yeah. how are the how are they doing now. it hurt the the ones that lost their. jobs and they're hurting bad you know. they're really hurting bad um. we will we stay in touch we formed a. federation. um because all of the volunteer groups.

were running out of steam you know. they've been doing this for a year now. and these were people that had jobs they. had lives they had you know most of them. are retired you know they've left that. world behind them and now they're back. in it and the government is not picking. up you know. in many cases we just want to. responsibly hand off. there are manifests of Commandos kka. special forces that are still in the. game that could be mobilized into the. resistance that their families could at.

least be exfiltrated you know we just. want to hand them off responsibly. nobody's picking it up you know and and. and it's like no veteran is going to let. that go we're taught not to do that I. interviewed we interviewed pineapple did. a guy named George recently from. Fayetteville North Carolina who's a. former Green Beret and he's pulling. people out the only difference is George. is 82 years old he's a fifth group NCO. from uh special forces in Vietnam and. he's pulling out Montana yards he's.

pulled out thousands through his. non-profit and helps him resettle on a. farm in the outskirts of of Fort Bragg. and he's been doing this for 50 some. years holy [ __ ] and he'll never stop and. that's that's what is going on with. these veterans like they're never going. to stop but they're approaching this. this culminating point where there out. of resources their mental health is in. the toilet they are they are. experiencing suicidal ideations in many. cases I mean let's just look at the.

suicide thing for a second we had we had. 7 000 combat deaths. Post 9 11. you have 30. 177 suicides with uh active duty and. post-9 11 Veterans. most of those in the last few years the. worst. if 73 of our population feels betrayed. and 63 feels humiliated what's that. going to look like in two years. it's not gonna look good I mean.

I was almost one of them me too. I got a phone call probably. on average once a week. from somebody that I know who's thinking. about pulling the trigger same. and that's before all this it's been. like that for years yeah now you add. this to the mix yeah where. a large chunk of the veteran population. even the Vietnam population is severely. disturbed by this yeah. and our government it's called you know. we call it a moral injury where what you.

believe in is violated by the people you. serve right you have to violate your own. moral code and I think it's one of the. worst injuries of Veteran can encounter. because it's an injury on the soul. right and it's what those fifth group. ncos cry about leaving their Martin. yards in their 80s they weep right we're. doing that to this precious generation. of veterans right now who stood with us. for 20 years and volunteered and went.

again and again and again and this moral. injury you know what we know is that for. a moral injury to actually be righted. yeah you can actually address it you can. create moral recovery but it takes. leadership institutional leaders have to. step up and they have to get involved in. this they have to acknowledge what. happened they have to look for fixes. solutions to the systemic problems so. that the the people that endured the. injury see that it won't happen again to. their kids and to the people that follow. but let me ask you where are the.

generals where are the Admirals right. now both past and present. stepping up and leading the charge on. this what you see are retired 04s o5s. e7s. addressing it in the public space you. see no flag officers in the public space. addressing this problem. that's a problem. the dissonance between the leaders and. the lead the men and women who carry the.

load for 20 years on their shoulders. they're looking at their senior leaders. right now. and the dissonance the distance between. them is striking and I say this in my. book and like I think most of our senior. leaders they don't even see it there was. one senior leader heavily involved in. the withdrawal who was a special. operator at the flag officer level when. I explained to him what our community. was going through he said to me. I thought they would have been over this. by now.

and I just said to him sir. they'll never be over this. and they need you right now. and they're just it's just they're. absent you know they're they're just. they're just not present in the public. space there's a lot of flag officers. doing things in private to help. Commandos that's not what we need them. for right now you know we need this flat. we need their voice exactly where is it. I don't see it. and I think most of the people I. interviewed in this book dozens are.

asking the same question one uh iconic. NCO fifth group NCO named Donnie in the. book not his real name. saved hundreds in the final moments. before the bomb went off like his. actions. to get people out were just in keeping. with the kind of solid team Sergeant NCO. he's always been he told me like months. later we were talking I interviewed him. and he had just lost a a special. operator that he was trying to keep. alive had been executed.

and he was just a wreck how'd they. execute him they shot him. I shot him in front of his family. and uh. uh I don't know the status of the family. right now a lot of times you know but. that family screwed because like they. have no patriarch at that point if. they're even still alive yeah and in. some cases the entire family's wiped out. but the the magnitude of loss on the. Special Operations community over this. past winter for Retribution is terrible.

you know again no one's talking about it. but Donnie said to me he goes um if I. had known. back then what I know now of how we were. going to treat our partners I would. never have walked down to the recruiter. on 9 12 2001 and join Special Forces and. he said my kid wants to join the Army. and if I have anything to do it he will. never. see the inside of a recruiting station. and this is a guy who who literally. wasn't SF his entire life and then even.

as a contractor he loved it you know. this is what's happened and I just again. I don't want to sound all morbid but. like this is our moral compass these are. these are special operators our combat. veterans these are the men and women. that they are our conscience. you know they represent everything. that's good in the country and we have. literally run them into the ground yeah. and there's been no recognition of their. you know Congress has not recognized. what these volunteer groups have done. the president didn't talk about it in.

either of his talks since this has. happened made no mention of it you know. and. I don't know how we can do that I don't. know how we can ask that of these. amazing men and women who stepped up. when nobody else did. and then watch them go through the level. of moral injury and mental anguish that. they're going through right now it's. it's unforgivable and I've I'm never. going to stop talking about it because. it's wrong. I mean the government has obviously. failed is there anything.

a lot of people are going to watch this. is there anything that they can do. yeah well look that's a great question I. there's a couple let's take it you know. start local because that's where I like. to start on things as an SF Guy start. local uh one is check in on. the the veterans that you know check in. on the gold star families and the. military families that you know and and. just ask them how they're doing let them. know and not just thanking them for. their service let them know that what.

they did mattered let them know that you. appreciate everything that they did and. if they ever need to talk you're here. like I really think we need to check in. for veterans. and the intelligence Community we have. to check in on each other more more so. than ever because these numbers really. worry me 73 betrayed 67 percent. humiliated 81 Spike on the VA hotline. that's unprecedented so we gotta check. in on each other 56 percent of veterans. of Afghan War veterans say that no I'm.

sorry two-thirds say that resettlement. of Afghans would help their Mental. Health. so how can we get involved in helping. our veteran population see their. partners. find safe passage and get resettled a. lot of this moral injury comes from that. the state department could could do this. tomorrow they have the the authorization. to do it now so I believe pressure in. this midterm election on our elected. officials both at the administration and.

Congressional level this is not a. Republican or Democratic it's an. American issue but if we really want to. fight for what our veterans did. particularly these volunteer groups and. in the war is put pressure on our. elected officials to help with safe. passage for the most at-risk afghans. really double down on resettlement here. and take a hard look at the overwhelmed. resettlement agencies give some. resources to that open public hearings. to go through what happened so that we.

can address this systemic problem of. abandonment. and fix it once and for all I think. there needs to be accountability to. senior Military Officers diplomats and. politicians that were involved in this. and then finally I know I've got several. is I think it's time to start supporting. the Afghan resistance we need to support. them at least to the level we're. supporting Ukraine they are fighting. they are pushing back and they are our. best antibody to an Al-Qaeda that has.

completely reconstituted. and has its sight set on us again yeah. those are my thoughts very tangible I. mean those are things that people could. do at both and if you know volunteer. groups. um help them you know whether. volunteering your time. um you know moral compass Federation is. a great one to get behind. we'd spoken downstairs about how these. guys that you saved. you in in your team have saved how are. they doing here in the US now our I mean.

it's culture shock. coming from a country like that to. a Western Country how are they. integrating not just with the war trauma. but also just culture regular it's. really difficult I mean Hasina Safi the. minister of women's Affairs has been. living in a hotel in the United Kingdom. for a year with her family. a year she goes down to the job line. every day to try to find work. damn in. the United States.

most of the people that we helped get. over. um are struggling Bashir who was. separated from his family and that baby. girl was born you know. um after he got out. he's a security guard at a Tom Thumb. grocery store in Texas while his. family's stuck in a third country right. now and he's never seen his baby girl. um a lot of our but the cool thing too. man I'm so proud of is like a lot of our. Shepherds and pineapple like remember I.

was telling you about Matt Coburn the. retired Colonel that had worked with. Afghan Army since they were privates all. the way until he was the colonel they. called at the end he brought most of the. Afghans he got out to Pennsylvania where. he lives they live all around him nizam. lives near me. um you know nazam's got his driver's. license you know we we you know we we. helped him get his GED but Matt he. drives uh he's he drove his Afghan. Partners to their job interviews he. would drive them to work every morning.

um he would have him over for dinner. every night and then most recently most. of them have gotten jobs and got their. own car they share a car between him he. helped him get a loan for a car I mean. it's. so they're coming around they're coming. around it's going to take years yeah you. know and and the veterans what I would. leave you with on that is they're. overwhelmed they cannot they cannot. shoulder this load anymore. like they will continue to do it but. they're dropping like flies and whether. it's resettlement working that aspect of.

it here in the US or the safe passage. where these at-risk Commandos nmrg are. surrounded and being hunted. they need the support of the American. population behind them to put pressure. on politicians to lead like our veterans. have led and do the right thing that's. what we need. foreign.

foreign.

but to close it out I want to know what. your opinion is on what is the effect of. the Afghan withdrawal gonna do to Global. terrorism yeah I think that's the right. question to ask I mean there's. there's a lot in that and I'll try to. unpack it just as succinctly as I can. and and and and here's some things I.

think that are worthy of considering as. people make up their own mind of what. you know does Afghanistan really matter. in the scheme of things this little you. know. dusty ass country in Southwest Asia that. no one has really heard about until 9. 11. I think that it does it matters to. Everyday Americans it matters to people. who are raising their kids and if you. have whether you have memory of 9 11 or. not. here's why I think it matters and what. what the impact is going to be on global.

terrorism. first of all we may think that we're. done with Al-Qaeda and Isis but they're. not done with us. You Know The Enemy were taught in. Special Operations always has a vote in. the outcome of the plan you know you may. make the best plan in the world but the. enemy gets a vote on how that happens. and in this case Global Terror groups. like Al-Qaeda Isis they have a narrative. that drives them to action that they. follow for centuries.

right we may come and go with political. polarization and political. administrations our our narrative. changes our goals change it's not true. for Al Qaeda and Isis they have a goal. to re-establish the Islamic caliphate. they have a goal to unseat and destroy. the apostate governments of the Middle. East and the great Satan in the west. that does not change. right they may they may get decimated. and. um experience degradation like what.

happened with the 20-year war in. Afghanistan and the Isis campaign in. Syria but they do not lose the focus on. their narrative and they are very. patient and very committed what you're. seeing right now in Afghanistan. is a complete return to where we were. pre-9 11. and I'm getting this first. hand from former Afghan special. operators who fought. Al-Qaeda and Isis for Years also from. Legend the afghan-american Intel NCO.

from our army who's been in country. reporting as well they're all saying the. same thing Al Qaeda Lieutenant General. Sammy Sadat the last commander of Afghan. Special Operations before the country. fell. I've had conversations with him he's. getting ready to go back into the. country and try to mobilize the. Commandos as part of the resistance. which is encouraging to me but but he's. saying the same things Al-Qaeda has. completely reconstituted the strike on. Iman zawahiri who was the number two.

under Bin Laden and then the number one. shows us that he was standing on the. porch of a cobble an affluent Kabul. neighborhood in broad daylight yeah he. is he was there uh at the as a guest of. the Taliban. um a general. um. gosh darn it another Afghan Special. Operations General recently uh talked at. a conference that I was at and he said. that uh the Afghans are the Taliban are. actually issuing passports uh and and. visas to foreign fighters to live.

comfortably in Afghanistan we know for a. fact that foreign fighters from Syria. Iraq. um uh Al-Qaeda foreign fighters from. North Africa and even southeast Asia are. back in Afghanistan training openly on. former Afghan army bases in Hellman and. Kandahar why do you think they're. amassing in Afghanistan from all these. other countries well it's the perfect. Safe Haven you know if you're going to. have a global Terror threat projection. if you're going to fulfill on that. Narrative of bringing unprecedented. violence to the West like you saw on 9.

11 2001. you have to have a safe haven. that gives you the ability in an. unfettered uninterrupted way to plan. prepare project. train and refit. and Afghanistan is the ultimate Safe. Haven in that regard because their. government. is an islamist government they have a. soft spot in their heart for anything. that is anti-American that is that is. terrorist in nature they support it and.

they're showing that openly right now. even though we have a Doha agreement. that says if you do that we're coming. back in. that what we're seeing from this. Administration is no indication that. that will happen at all except these. Over the Horizon strikes like we did. with zawahiri great we got him and kudos. to the intelligence Community for making. that happen. but Sean we saw Over the Horizon strikes. when we were trying to get Bin Laden. before 9 11. like there's just no. substitute yeah for the Ground. Intelligence Network you know this.

better than anybody and there's no. substitute for a partner Force. who can resist at a local level and be. that antibody both of those were. abandoned Wholesale in Afghanistan on. August 15th and they're still somewhat. intact and these volunteer groups have. manifests of Afghan Commandos kka. intelligence officials that yes want to. get out of the country but if they were. ex you know extradited or brought out of. the country they could become huge.

assets for countering violent extremism. but the bottom line is I think we are a. couple of years out from a catastrophic. attack that's going to come from this. unfettered Safe Haven and I'll leave you. with this scenario. let's just say let's assume that two to. three years from now. we suffer a strike in the U.S and it's. on par with 9 11. and I don't think. that's a stretch considering the level. of freedom of action that Al Qaeda and. Isis K are being afforded in Afghanistan.

right so let's just assume that attack. an attack happens here and it is it is. catastrophic and out of the ashes and. when the dust clears you have an America. that is reminiscent of 9 12 2001. the. country music songs are playing the. Budweiser commercials are going strong. the yellow ribbons are on the trees. except this time it's you know your son. and mind that are loaded up on these. airplanes on these c-17s and are. deployed over to for a retribution.

operation in Afghanistan to seek. Vengeance and and Alps this group that. just did this now last time you had. members of the Special Operations. community that went in under cover of. darkness and they linked up with. resistance groups like The Northern. Alliance and the posting tribes in the. South and the east. but what if this time when our. when our youth are going over laying in. weight are dozens if not hundreds of. former Afghan Commandos.

Special Forces. who are in ragtag clothing but they. still have the kit they still have the. m-force with Optics and the night vision. goggles. and. they're pissed off because they watch. their kids starve to death over three. years they've been co-opted by ISIS or. Al Qaeda and. they're ready for some Payback. and the Very partner force that we. trained and supported and bled with. could be the people that were fighting.

the next time we go back in there. and not a pretty picture no and I think. you know what a what a terrible. Post 9 11 testimony that would be to. have to give. you know. I want to bring up one more thing that. was perfect ending but. we're seeing these this new alliance.

starting to form with China Russia Iran. Korea. those countries are amassing in. Afghanistan right now and building. relations with Taliban Al Qaeda we. already know that. China's very smart and now they play. this game. do you think there's a possibility that. we might see another terrorist attack. but maybe it's not.

maybe it was. state-sponsored actually exactly yeah I. think it's very possible I mean think. about terrorism is a is a technique that. is is very suitable for the kind of. asymmetric world that we live in. particularly when you have you know. great power competitions like what's. happening right now and you've got a. multi-polar world right I mean where. these nation-states are all vying for. you know some kind of impact on the U.S. they perceive the U.S as weak right now. and frankly they see us as not being. able to partner very well you know so.

we're pretty isolated. you take in effect also Sean that you. know how did we treat our NATO partners. with the abandonment of Afghanistan yeah. pretty bad they did they were they. didn't get the memo on how we were going. to go down with this and they had to. scramble in there and and deal with that. situation really uh on the receiving end. you know so even our NATO alliances. which run so deep I believe we have. squandered those relationships in the. last couple of years as well I mean. really the way that we've treated our. friends our partners the people that.

should stand at our shoulder in the. darkest of times has been terrible. you know it's been really bad and our. our relationship Social Capital skill. set for for leading in this country is. in disarray and I think that countries. like China Russia they see that they. factor that into their calculus would. they be willing to sponsor a surrogate. attack on the U.S. certainly I think that certainly that. that there's there's the potential for.

that to happen but by the same token you. know what is our ability to work with. partner forces to counter or butt up. against what they're trying to do either. in Taiwan Afghanistan and other places I. mean if we don't regain. our partner capability and our trust in. the world. I think we're putting the country at. risk not just for terrorism. but for near peer aggression. it all comes down to how you treat your.

friends. and it all comes down to how you treat. your veterans. and your citizens and right now our. institutional leaders have dropped the. ball in every regard. and they've been allowed to get away. with it. hope that changes me too and I hope that. people because you know what I take away. from from pineapple and this whole. experience was you know Robert Putnam in. his book bowling alone he's a social. scientist he talks about how in the. early 1900s America was in these really.

dark times. you know really dark times you had. polarized politics crime was terrible. immigration was off the chain and. unchecked and people were screaming that. America was on its last leg. and about that time. uh two drunks in Akron Ohio. who could not get sober. looked around and said you know what. nobody's coming let's let's have a. meeting let's call it Alcoholics. Anonymous and it was Dr Bob and Bill W.

and and what started in that two-person. meeting. was one of the largest movements for. Recovery including myself where millions. of people were affected the Rotary Club. the Junior League the NAACP Future. Farmers of America all of the social. capital. groups and Trust groups that we know and. grew up with in our time started during. this downswing and it began this upswing. that lasted all the way until 1972.

and it was citizens who stepped into the. breach when nobody else was coming and. they addressed a systemic problem right. and they showed what leadership looked. like and and the institutional leaders. followed so there is massive metal level. precedent for this in the United States. I believe that what happened in. Afghanistan this is what I choose to. believe. pineapple. sacred promise. project Exodus relief those were the. first shots across the bow of the next.

upswing. I think that people are tired of it I. think that citizens see the lack of. leadership in our country that nobody. else is coming and I you know what I. tell people is that was our Pineapple. Express what's yours. because it's time. that gives me a lot of Hope. me too. because that's what our brothers and. sisters fought and bled for yeah and. they deserve that and it's still in us. I'm absolutely convinced of it yes it is.

well Scott I just want to say it was a. real honor you know to interview I hope. you come back I want to get your. backstory another time but for anybody. listening check out operation Pineapple. Express book I'll link it in the. description wonderful you're an amazing. human being and I'm just it really was. an honor thank you thank you bro. appreciate you. best of luck thanks man.

hey everybody I'm Sean Ryan click here. to subscribe to the Sean Ryan Show. YouTube channel for the hottest and most. compelling interviews that you will not. see anywhere else I've also made a. playlist of all the previous SRS. episodes so they're easy to find you can. find that. right here.