Lee Strobel & John Burke - The Resurrection | SRS #192

So he died on the cross. They put him in. a tomb. Yes. Why was it 3 days? There's. some really powerful new analysis of the. shroud that indicates it may very well. be the burial cloth of Jesus. Why did he. have to come and go through that to save. us? God says to him, Abraham, I want you. to take your son, your only son, who you. love. Take him to a mountain. I will. show you and there I want you to. sacrifice him. That was the very place.

on which Jesus would walk up the hill. with his own wood. And by the way, Isaac. had to carry the wood. Jesus would walk. up with the wood on which he would be. sacrificed and the Lord would provide. Wow. It's all over. And we do know that. Yes. How do we know that? John Burke, Lee Strobble, welcome back. Thanks, Sean. Great to be here. Great to. be back. So, love having you guys on.

together. Love being here. Especially my. buddy uh John. We've known each other. for we were figuring over what, 30. years. Too long. Yeah. Too long. Not for. you, but to be that old. Yeah. when I. found you guys together was off one of. the documentaries you guys uh. collaborated on and and um and I've just. learned so much from you guys uh through. the interviews and um it's just an honor. to have you back and uh you know I'm. going to pepper you with all kinds of. questions here coming up I'm still new.

to this whole thing so but um but yeah. so Easter and uh so I wanted to get you. guys both back on to to talk about the. resurrection, what it means, what's the. proof, and um and any other rabbit holes. that we go down, which I'm sure there'll. be quite a So, yeah. Yeah. But um quick. introduction, shorten it up a little bit cuz you guys. have both been on before. Lee Strobel,

New York Times bestselling author. Over. 40 books that have sold millions. Newest. book, Seeing the Supernatural, just hit. that list as well. the founding director. of the Lee Strobble Center for. Evangelism and Applied Apologetics at. Colorado Christian University. John. Burke, founder of the Gateway Church in. Austin, Texas, best-selling author with. books like Imagine Heaven that dive into. near-death experiences and what they.

reveal about the afterlife. And now. you've just started a podcast, Imagine. Heaven with John Burke. Congratulations. on the podcast. Thank you. Sounds a. little overwhelming. It is. I'm nowhere. I can relate. It is. I can relate. I. know. You know, I was trying to get you. to talk me out of it last time I was on. the show and you didn't. Yeah. Yeah. Well, should have. I hope things are. going really good with that. I know a. lot of people have questions and and uh. and I think like we both have talked.

about, there just seems to be this wave. of Christianity just moving quick and a. lot of new believers out there. Yeah, new openness. I like that's good. Yeah. So, but uh you know, everybody gets a. gift, even the second appearance. So, here you guys go. Oh, yeah. Thank you. My god. Oops. My bad. And uh still legal in all 50 states. And. then I also Nice. Yeah. You know, we're.

sure we'll be talking about Yeah. Angels. and Demons a little bit. Sure. And uh I. think I may have told both you. Yeah. The 444, right? 444 stuff. So when I. became a believer, uh I had this. experience in Sedona and then ever since. then Oh, you told me about that. See the. 444 everywhere. Was that related to. that? It was. It was. So the quick quick. backstory. So, I told you about the the. Sedona trip and.

then after the Sedona trip, I think the. guy that really I don't think the guy. that really started my journey to faith. was this guy Eddie Penny. Uh who's who's. a friend of mine, former Seal Team Six. guy. Um and his his story of being saved. is just like it's always stuck with me. And then every person that's come on the. show since him. [Music]. for man probably a year after he came on.

was they brought up something. about God, Jesus, the Bible, like every. single person that sat in this room for. probably about a year. And then and then. I had that experience in. Sedona. When I came back, I had called. Eddie cuz Eddie's been kind of a mentor. of mine. and um told him about what had. happened and and was just kind of asking.

him what it all meant and he started. having this conversation with me about. guardian angels and attacks will. probably start happening because I've. chosen a side. He's he was basically. saying demons don't really care when. you're just sitting there in the middle, but uh he goes, "Now that you've chosen. a side and and um with the influence you. have, you'll probably start getting. attacks." And that led into Guardian. Angels. And then I had a meeting. scheduled with my IT guy at the time,

also a really good friend and mentor. and. um he had scheduled a meeting at noon. and I thought it was just going to be. about IT stuff, website, emails, who. knows what. And he's he has the exact. same conversation with me and those two. don't know each other. And he had. scheduled the meeting at noon and I and. he was like, "Hey, you know, guardian. angels are watching over you. They've. known they've known you since before you.

were born and all this stuff." And I was. like, that's I was like, this is weird. I just had this conversation like 12. hours ago with Eddie. And um I had gone. home for a late. lunch with my uh wife and. kid and got back in the in the truck to. drive back to work and I saw 444 on the. dash clock and then I had 444 miles left. to empty. And so I had texted.

um one of the guys that works for me. here and I said, "Hey, Google. 444. I want to know what that. means." And we come back, I I get to the. office and he says, we looked it up and. he said, "It means your guardian angels. want you to know that they're watching. over you." That was like the first thing. that popped up in Google. And that was 4. hours and 44 minutes after I had had. that discussion about guardian angels. And so it was like three times just bam. bam bam. And um like God trying to get.

your attention about something. Yeah. Right. And uh right after I had had that. really profound experience in Sedona and. um and. so yeah, I don't I mean one of the. things in the outline that I wanted to. talk to you guys about is is you know. all these people they pray on things. They they say they want to leave it in. God's hands. And how do you know you're doing the. right thing? And and for me, I think.

that uh I want to ask you guys, you. know, how how do you know when he's. speaking to you? And for me, I think. it's my gut feel instinct. And. so, you know, we dive into a lot of. squirly things on the podcast or if I'm. looking for some direction, a lot of. times I I feel like I know what it is. and then I get in my head and I'm like, "Oh, shit." Yeah. Am I doing the right. thing? Am I supposed to be doing this?

Or. And it's like he'll flash a sign like. every time. And a lot of times I'll just. randomly look at my watch or my phone or. something. and it'll say. 444 or exit 444. That number will flash. sometime. And to me that to me that. means your gut's right, Sean. This is. the confirmation that you need. Lean. into the gut. That's where I'm at. There's the guardian angel thing is a. fascinating topic. I have a chapter in. my book, Seeing the Supernatural, on.

angels, and I deal with the guardian. angel question. Do we really have. guardian angels? And it's interesting. There's some Christians, scholars who. say no. But you go back in history, Jerome, the great Bible translator said. yes. Uh Thomas Aquinas said yes and um. Martin Luther certainly believed. certainly believed in guardian angels. Uh well I would say in in angel. protective angels but there's two. passages that that jump out to me. Yeah, there's two passages jump out to me. One. is Jesus was talking to some folks and.

he said about little children. And he. said, "Uh, do not despise these little. ones because their angels see the face. of God in heaven every day." Well, who. are they're angels? That would be a. guardian angel, right? And then Peter is. in prison in the book of Acts and an. angel frees him and he shows up at a. house where some Christians are gathered. and he knocks on the door and uh says, "Hey, Peter." And the servant says, "Hey, Peter's at the door." And they. say, "He can't be at the door. He's in.

prison. it must be his angel. Um, and I. I you know I interview a scholar for my. book um on that question. He says I. think that is sufficient biblical. evidence to say that yeah we do have a. guardian angel. Uh the Orthodox. Christian church believes that at the. moment of baptism you're assigned a. guardian angel. So um you know this is. this is a very interesting phenomena. because people don't think of that. you. know, you know, we're we're cautioned, I. think, through the experience of John. and Revelation not to worship angels.

Um, and therefore, I would suggest from. at least the Protestant writings that. you don't uh pray to angels, but to pray. about angels and to pray for God's. intervention through his angels is. certainly biblical, I believe. In fact, Jesus when he was being arrested said, "Could not my father right now send what. was it? 12 legions of angels." ang to. protect me if I wanted to. Yeah. Yeah. And and so and at the in the small. catechism that Martin Luther wrote, uh.

his evening prayer says, "Lord, um um. send your angels to protect me from the. evil one." So for us to to to pray to. God for protection by angelic beings um. to uh believe and trust that he has. perhaps even assigned a guardian angel. to protect us I think tells us something. about the love of God uh the power of. God uh his concern for every aspect of. our life and I I just find it very.

encouraging. Yeah. Well, and I, you. know, my study into near-death. experiences, you know, having studied. thousands of them, um, definitely. confirms all that Lee just said. Really? Yeah. And and, um, you know, I think. about like Jim Woodford, this commercial. airline pilot who uh, when he died, he. was he had been an agnostic his whole. life, very wealthy man, been he was a. several multi-million dollar businesses.

um never prayed a day in his life, but. his wife was a believer and was praying. for him and for his. salvation. And he he he told me he said, "John, you know when you're dying, you. know, and he knew he had an opioid. overdose. He had gon bare and ended up. addicted and accidental. uh in his truck looking at the sunset. And as he was dying, he had this. thought. You've never thanked God for. the life you thought was your own.

making. Mhm. Wow. Wow. And he looks back. now and says he thinks that was the Lord. going, "One last time, buddy." Yeah. What are you going to do? Yeah. And he. cried out, "God, forgive me." As his. head hit the steering wheel. Wow. Which. he's a jokester, so I like to joke with. him. Jim, I think you beat the thief on. the cross for last minute, daddy. You. know, I was like, how much more do you. gonna push it? But he first so he first.

has a a. hellish vision of of actually a creature. who knew his name, calling to him. And. again, he cries out to God for help. And. these three angels come and rescue him. And interestingly in near-death. experiences when it is lastm minute kind. of foxhole conversion, I find God lets. them see where they were going before. rescuing them and show them where where. their eternity is going to be. So that. happens to Jim and he's there with these.

three magnificent. angels and one was his guardian. um one was a scribe angel and one was a. warrior. And people consistently. describe those three interesting. categories. And what's fascinating too. because I I'll be honest like I I had no. interest in angels or demons. I didn't I. just kind of like yeah you know we're. not supposed to pray to them just like. you said. So I'm sure they're there but. who cares? Not who cares but kind of. Um.

but how many near-death experiencers. talked about them consistently the same. All always in threes. One was a 10, one. was 10 ft, one another 12 and 15 ft. And. I was always like, "What? That's. bizarre." But they kept saying kind of. estimation of height, too. Interesting. I know. And um so the guardian told Jim. that yes, he was assigned to him since.

his conception. Interesting. And I've. heard that from others as well. Wow. I. think there's sufficient biblical. evidence for it. And this is this is. near-death experience stuff that just. confirms that. It does. Um, and I find. that encouraging. Don't you? Yeah. Because like you, it's like, yeah, I'm. more interested in some of the stuff I. can see and touch and evidence and so. forth, but then to know that God's cares. about me so much that he he's watching. over me in that way and he's assigned. someone to really provide protection and.

guidance. Well, and another guy, a CEO. that I interviewed, he's there before. the throne of God, and he sees that. prayers and Jim did too, that prayers. are tangible. Like, they're real things. You know, we just think, oh, it's just, you know, hitting the ceiling or. whatever, and it's just my thoughts or. but to God, that's not true. They they. actually, you know, they they are seen. in heaven kind of like like lights. Jim. So Jim is there with these angels and he.

sees these six streaks of light going up. and he thought, you know, he's a. commercial airline pilot. He's like, "Are those contrails?" You know, like. the the smoke from or the, you know, chemtrails. Yes. Chemtrail, right? And. and uh he said to the angel, "What are. those?" And the angel said, "Those are. the prayers of your family for your soul. going to the throne of God even as we. speak." Wow. At that point, now he's.

dead. His body's dead in a truck. The uh. Canadian Royal Mounted Guard. What's the. police there? Mounted police. Find him. the next morning. He was dead overnight. But his family, six family members were. circled up in his home holding hands, praying that Jesus would rescue him and. send him back. And he sees six six contrails contrails. and other near-death experiencers who.

have said the same thing. So the CEO. that I interview, Randy, sees the same. thing. These lights like coming. into the the throne of God and he knew. they were prayers and and the Lord. sending angels in answer to the prayers. to to ask. and we which I would have thought I. don't know you know like I'm I'm still. as kind of a skeptic at heart. I hate to. say that but you just do stuff directly. rather than dispatching. Well, and I,

you know, and at first when I started. hearing these, I was like, yeah, I don't. know. That's kind of, you know, Yeah. But there's so many so many of them. saying that. Yeah. And then it doesn't. it doesn't go against the Bible. And in. fact, it aligns with what Yeah. You. know, God's told us a lot in there. Our. prayers really do make a difference. They they they actually move the hand of. God. Yeah. John Payton was a um a. Scottish missionary in the New Hedes. Islands in the South Pacific. and um he. and his wife lived in this little.

cottage and um the local tribes people. didn't like the fact they were talking. about Jesus all the time. So they came. to burn down their house and kill them. So this mob is forming. So what do they. do? They're they're praying. They're. praying God here we are. We're alone. We're in this home. They're coming to. kill us. They're coming to burn down our. house, pray us, protect us, help us. And. um and by dawn the crowd dissipated. Um later he leads the head of that mob. to Jesus Christ and they become friends. This is a year later. And he says to.

him, "By the way, do you remember that. night that you led that mob to come to. our house and burn it down? Why didn't. you kill us?" He said, "Well, who are. all those men that you. had?" What do you mean? I didn't have. any mist. My wife and I. What are you. talking about? Your house was surrounded. by these muscular men in white garments. with drawn swords. There's no way we. could have come into your house. Wow. Lots of stories like that. Lots of. stories like that. How h how did he how. did he couple questions. How did he know.

one was a guardian, one was a scribe, and one was Yeah, that's an interesting. question. Um that's just intuitive in him. No, the. guardian told him. Well, he told him I. was your guardian and he it's. fascinating because the guardian said. um he I mean this is this is kind of. bizarre and so let me let me say this. I. you know I study these and I study the. commonalities and I usually don't I. usually don't say like okay that's I I. believe that if it's just a oneoff,

right? I look for three or four and it's. got to align with scripture or you know. I kind of just like put it on the shelf. So this is a little bit of one of those. on the shelf things. Yeah. But this. guardian told him that. um he he he used to you know he would. fly with him. I mean Jim was a. commercial airline pilot so he's flown. all over the world. And and he the. guardian named himself Sky Song because.

Jim used to sing to himself to keep. himself awake and and the Guardian named. himself Skyong of all those flights. Wow. This is when Jim was not a believer. at all. Wow. But it doesn't mean God. doesn't care about us and it doesn't. mean he's not trying to get our. attention. Yeah. And uh Yeah. Jim said, "My my guardian had a rough go for many. years. He was not.

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people. Some people say they look. like UFOish. kind of like they don't look human. Well, I don't know for sure, but I think. they can take different forms. I think. we see that in scripture. Yeah. As well, right? Um I mean, sometimes, you know, uh angels come and they they. look like people. Yeah. In in the. scriptures even. Um I mean that was the. case with with Abraham, right? when when.

the the angel of God, which is in the. Old Testament, the the kind of human. manifestation of God, I think it was the. pre-incarnate Jesus. You think that? Yeah, it could be. Maybe. Not so sure. Yeah, we'll talk about We can debate that. later. Um I think it was because he. allows worship and no other angel allows. worship. So, think about Gideon. Yeah. you know, Gideon worships him in the. floor of Aruna. So, anyway, that's a.

side I I had I usually didn't talk I. never talked about this for years. because I was embarrassed by it. Um, and. and never talked to a group of people. about it till my ordination where I had. all these theologians questioning me. about my doctrine. I thought, do I tell. them that I had an angelic encounter. with my guardian angel? You did? Yeah, I. did. And I I was embarrassed by it. And. I because I thought people think I'm. nuts. I'm not going to talk about this. But with all these theologians, I.

thought I better tell them. They're. going to ordain me. They better know. about this. So I tell them told them. And when I was 12 years old or so, um, uh, my guardian angel appeared to me. And you asked what he looked like. I. knew that's who it was. Even though I. can't describe him in detail, I knew. that's he was an angel. It was an. intuitive. He was intuitive. And he and. and here's what was important about the. incident. I'm in my kitchen at home. I'm. a little kid, 12 years old. And he. starts extoling heaven, how beautiful.

and wonderful heaven is. And so I. casually said, "Well, I'm going to go. there. someday." And he looked at me and said, "How do you. know?" What do you mean, how do I know? I'm I'm a good kid. I I obey my parents. pretty much. I I I I get good grades in. school. I'm nice to my You're saying. this? I'm saying this to him. I'm trying. to justify that I'm good enough to get. to heaven. That is it verbal. communication? Yeah, verbal no verbal. communication. And um and he looks at me. and says, "That doesn't matter.".

And a a chill went down my spine. How. could my efforts to be a good kid and. and to do good? How does that not. matter? I was just at a lot. And he. said, "Someday you'll understand.". Well, about 16 years, that was it. He. disappeared. And that was the only dream. I remember from my childhood. It was. more vivid than any dream ever. It was a. dream. Oh, a vivid dream. But it was a. vivid dream unlike any I' ever had. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I suppressed it. I. Oh, I must have had a bad pizza. That's. crazy. And and ultimately became an. atheist. Um, but then my wife brought me.

to church on January the 20th of. 1980 and I heard the gospel for the. first time. It's not based on your good. works, how how hard you try to be good, that the doors of heaven are flung open. No, it is a free gift of God's grace. that we receive in repentance and faith. that good deeds come later because we're. seeking to please God and to to to live. accords as he loves us. And so here I am. and two things happened. Number one, I. realize that angel told me something.

when I was 12 years old that I didn't. know. So it wasn't just something coming. from my imagination. And secondly, he. made a prophecy that someday I'll. understand that came true 16 years. later. Wow. never heard that. So I I I didn't like. telling people because for 30 years. Well, I told my wife, you know, but I. didn't. So So this is a funny thing. because you never you never knew about. all my near-death experience research. So we worked together, you know, in the. '9s. That's true. But I didn't tell. anybody either. Yeah. Cuz I was like, it.

was kind of a new age. No, they're going. to think I'm weird. I will not. I mean, when when I went to write Imagine Heaven. in 2015, right before I hit send, I. said, "Well, Lord, this is probably the. end of my ministry, but you told me to. do it, so here it goes." And I heard in. my mind, I've opened a door in heaven no. one can close. Wow. Wow. And I I think. it's true. So, let me So, back to the. original question because you said God. told you, which was what? Which was, how. does God speak to you? Oh, yeah.

So, we'll start with you. I Well, so. it's interesting. Near-death experiences. commonly report that the communication. of heaven can be verbal, like with his. angel in the in your vivid dream, but. telepathic, but can well, so a lot of. people use the word telepathic, but many. say no, it's more than that. It's not. just thoughts. It's thoughts, it's. feelings, it's every associated thought. It's pure, perfect. There's no way to.

misunderstand. Now, I believe that's how. God communicates to us today. Thoughts. It's thoughts, but it's you. could call it intuition, but it's. different than that. It's more than. that. And you have to you have to learn. it. You know, Jesus gut instinct. Well, Jesus often said, "Whoever has ears to. hear, let him hear what the spirit is. saying." Well, we all have these. So, what did he mean? Well, I think he meant.

you have to develop a spiritual. willingness to hear what the Holy Spirit. is trying to. communicate. And it is it is thought to. thought. You know, one of the one of the. things I used to say to to people in our. church is like, you know, we always want. God to speak in an audible voice, right? Like just tell me. But that's actually. less direct communication. you know, right? Right now, I'm trying. to get all my thoughts that are in my. brain into your brain or your brain, you.

know, whoever's listening to this. But I. have to use words. I can only get so. many words out and so much time. You're. thinking other thoughts a lot faster. than you can hear my words. There's all. kind of other noise and distraction. So, this is a very, you know, inefficient. form of communication. What would be. more direct is if I could just put all. the things I'm thinking in your mind. right now. Now, you could still go like, "Well, that's a stupid thought." And. push it aside, right? Or you could. consider it. And I can't do that. But.

God God can. So, I think those times. when especially when it's repetitive, right? I mean, I remember, you know, when I was a brand new believer, uh what. what helped me start to understand this. is I I was praying one day and I was. praying for friends and other things. is. praying and I had this thought, call. Allison. Allison's my younger sister. And I was like, I'm not going to call. Allison. I kept praying again. This and.

it wasn't just a thought. It was like a. thought and a feeling like supposed to. call Allison. And I was like, Allison's. at school. She's not going to answer the. phone. Um, yeah, I'm not going to call. Allison. Third. time. Call Allison. And the third time, because I think I was praying, I was. like, "God, am I supposed to call. Allison, like this just feels like my my. stupid thought, like you want me to?". And I thought, "Well, okay, look, it's.

not going to cost me anything. I'll just. do it." I call her. She had skipped. school. She was severely depressed. She'd been bullied and and she was home. And I was able to help her. Wow. Was her. big brother. And so when I hung up the. phone, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I think. I might have heard the voice of God.". Now, I'll tell you, Sean, I have journaled my journey of. faith for the last 35, 40. years. Those happen all the time.

All kinds intuitions that you believe. are really from God. Yeah. And it's not. just Yeah. So, so fascinatingly, I I I. just interviewed a a helicopter pilot. It's a medic and he's going 140 miles an. hour after he's he flies. lifelight. A bird went 140 mph through. his windshield, right? Hit his heart. Oh. my gosh. It's like a baseball at 140.

miles an hour. Boom. He's dead. Like. he's out. and he suddenly finds himself. outside the. helicopter like just floating there and. he sees his body in there slumped over. his partner, you know, flying and it's a it's a cold night. It's 20° outside and yet he feels warm. Um, anyways, pretty consistent. near-death experience. He he then finds. himself moving toward the light of God.

He sees the outline of what he thought. was Jesus. Um he is a follower of. Jesus. And and the Lord said to him, "Welcome, faithful servant.". And here's just this ordinary guy, very. ordinary medic, uh just doing doing his. job and all that. And he was ready to. die. And here's the fascinating thing. The Lord showed him in his life review. several times and he.

said that was me testing you. So this. one time he was talking about was. um it was a guy who was walking down the. street in the rain um and he drove by. him and he had the thought go pick him. up and he's like I'm not going to pick. him up. It's raining and uh and you know. then another one you know same thing. thought feeling go pick him up third. time louder go pick him up and and so.

Jeff was like all right all right I'll. do it and he goes back and he picks him. up and um and you know takes him to his. where do you want to go I don't know up. the you know drop me off of the it's. just like a normal wouldn't think. anything but Jesus said that was that. was me Mhm. Testing. Wow. So, I've had. those. I've had those. I remember one. time I'm I'm doing a leadership meeting. at our church and I'm late and I'm.

driving down the street and I see these. uh two teenage girls in a broken down. car on the side of the street and. they're walking around. I could tell. they're trying to fix a tire and I drive. by because I'm late, right? And I hear. again, you know, you should go back and. get them. And I'm like, that's a dumb. thought. I don't have time. I'm going to. be late. I got a hundred people waiting. for. me. Second turnaround, go back. I'm.

like, so now I'm like, Lord, is this. you? Cuz I've done this before. And it's. usually three. It's usually three. And. And I'm like, I can't, you know, I'm. going to be late. And the third it was. like, "What do you think you're trying. to teach these people to do? Go. back." And I obeyed. I went back. I turn. around. I go back. I help them. Okay. Fast forward. So, I'm late to my. meeting. I just apologized and.

explained. Two years. later, maybe it was three. I I meet this. African-American woman in our church. who's now a leader of our sexual abuse. healing. ministry and she tells me, "Yeah, you. know how I got here? My daughters came. home one day. You I'm a single mom. Um. she had been through all that of course, but she was now a psychologist and was. helping others heal." Her daughters came.

home one day and told her about the. pastor guy down the street who helped. them change the tire. And she's like, "Okay, that church I might be willing to. try." Interesting. They all came to. faith. Her daughter now works for World. Vision, helping kids around the world, and she was a leader in our ministry for. years. Wow. And there are these moments. I mean I I think the question how do you. hear the voice of God for me and you I'm. sure agree generally through reading.

scripture. Yes. You you you hear the. voice of God through the scripture that. speaks to you and tells you what God. wants you to know and so forth. Well. because you can get it wrong in your. intuition if you don't know the will of. God and everything has to be measured. against that. Make sure because God's. not going to lead you to do something. that's inconsistent. But I've had those. moments too. I had one in 1994 back when. we used travel agents. remember to book. air airline flights. So, I had to fly to. a city in uh Ohio. And so, I'm I'm on. the phone and and the travel agent said,

"Okay, you got to fly to Pittsburgh and. then you get in a in a smaller commuter. plane and it takes you it lands right. across the street from where you're. going in Canton, Ohio." And I said, "Okay, sounds great." And you hear the. type type. She's typing my reservation. And I had one of those. impressions. Is there another way to go? No, no, no. You have to fly, I think it. was to Cleveland, and rent a car and. drive for several hours. No, no, this is. perfect. Get you right right where. you're going. And I I just I just don't. feel comfortable with it. All right.

Well, I can So, type she unbooks me on. that first flight, books me on the. United flight heading umh somewhere else. at Cleveland or wherever it was. Uh both. flights took off at the same time. Uh. the one to Pittsburgh that I would have. been on and the one to Cleveland I was. on. And uh I rent a car. I get dinner. I. get back in the car. I'm going to drive. down to Canton or whatever it was. And I. turn on the radio and that other plane. had crashed. Wow. That was the 1994. crash in Pittsburgh of the US Airflight.

that killed everybody on board. And. um I think about that and I go, was that. God impressing on me that you know what, I don't want you on that flight? or was. that just me saying, you know, oh, it's. US Air. I don't like them as much or. whatever. Um, I think it was God. I. think it was God protecting me. And and. and so interesting tagging on to that. because people will say, and you know,

like I said, I'm a skeptic, so I think. that way like, well, what about all. those other people? Doesn't he care. about them? Yeah. And I had an. interesting thing. I I think he's. speaking to us all the time, but we have. to develop that quiet willingness to. hear, to listen. So, my own family, so. you know, I got all interested in this. near-death experience stuff when my dad. was dying of cancer, right? As I shared. with you, um, and that actually led me.

to start reading the Bible, and that's. how I came to faith in in. Christ. But during that time, so my dad. my dad was a smoker and a and a drinker. and so he did not want to get a um a. physical cuz he didn't want the bad. news. Uhhuh. So he goes finally for a. physical after about five or six years. And the night after they gave my dad the.

results, my mom's good friend wakes up. having had a very vivid. dream that uh kind of like your angel. dream. And vivid dreams are very. different than just a normal dream. I've. had two or three of them and they're. very different. Very vivid dream that. someone in our family was was horribly. sick. There was something terribly. wrong. And she calls my mom and tells. her. And my mom is like, "Well, you. know, the kids are fine." And no,

everybody's okay. And you know, John was. my dad's name. Just had a physical and. everything came back. great. Well, they told my dad they found. a scar on his lungs, but they thought it. was just a scar from pneumonia, but it. turns out that was actually the. beginning of cancer, and they missed it. And two years later when they found it, it was too late. Wow. Wow. So I've. always wondered was the Lord trying to. you know it does say in the Old. Testament that God speaks in various.

ways you know in thoughts or impressions. in in dreams uh through his word through. his prophets and through Jesus. Um so. I've always wondered about that like. what if we had been more attuned. attuned. Yeah. Good question. And so I I you know, anytime those kinds of things happen, I. don't freak out about them and I don't. but I but I'm always like, Lord, is. there something I need to know here? Is. there something I need to pay attention. to?

You have to be open. Yeah, you do. And. you have to be seeking. You have to, you. know, and that's why I think, you know, I think daily making time and space to. read God's word, meditate on what is. true, what is his will, and pray, you. know, and prayer is not like some formal. ritualistic thing. It's just talking, you know, it's just talking things over. with God. And and the more the the more. you get used to just doing that. throughout the day, then I find the more.

in tune you are to those prompings. It's. what I typically do in my prayers in the. morning is I at the end I say, "Lord, I. I'm just going to stay still for a few. minutes." And if there's something you. want me to know, if you want to. communicate something more directly to. me, I'm open. I'm in a posture of. receptivity. And I just spend a minute. or two in that posture. And most of the. time nothing, but then every once in a. while there's this impression about. something. And I remember when I when I.

was in uh I was a journalist at Chicago. Tribune, very successful in what I was. doing. And I felt God was starting to. call me out of that into after I became. a Christian into the staff of a church. at a 60% pay cut. And uh I remember that. too to abandon this entire career. years. of no wrestling like really how exactly. any other way those are the times you go. really you're going to have to tell me. three times I guess but but but those.

are the moments that you're receptive to. that kind of thing I think to take the. initiative to say almost like an putting. up an antenna and saying God I'm I'm. here I'm waiting I'm listening and if. you don't have anything for me that's. fine but if you do then please yeah you. know we're talking about we're talking. about a direct link basically to God and. we're talking about guardian angels and. and John you had mentioned you know as. long as it rel is it as long as it. aligns with scripture.

and. so the counterpart to that could demons. or Satan be inject could there be a. direct line of communication from him. yes and you could confuse the thoughts I. always I always tell people don't think. every thought is your own deceitful. above of all things the Bible says. I've. had, you know, gosh, I had I remember. I've got many of these, but uh I. remember one guy who um when I was a.

pastor was telling me, you know, God's. God's been telling me I've got to I've. got to follow love. And what he was. basically doing was hooking up with a. younger, prettier woman cuz his wife had. had a a child who was severely disabled. and it was really hard. and he was going to abandon them and his. first marriage because this was a lot.

prettier and easier and more fun. And. God was telling him, I guarantee you God. was not telling him that. Yeah. What? And how do I know? Well, because it. violates scripture. God wants us to be. faithful. You know, he says, "Never will. I leave you or forsake you." And. marriage is a is a mirror of that. You. know, Jesus said God's the one who. brings two together as one. And and. they're meant to mirror the oneness he. wants to have with us. But that's a good.

example too of how we evaluate uh. whether or not it's God really speaking. is to go to a brother to go to a sister. a belie fellow believer and say hey I'm. feel what do you think and to have you. say to him uh no I mean you and by the. way he didn't listen yeah well usually. don't but the demonic world is real and. I have a chapter on my book I tell the. story this this is really amazing about. the reality of the uh demonic world. Um.

it's a guy named Richard Gallagher. He's. a um psychiatrist. So he's a medical. doctor as well as trained in psychiatry. Uh Ivy League trained. He was a. professor at several major very uh. influential elite institutions in the. northeast. I have a quote from the. president former of the American. Psychiatric Association saying this guy. is totally total man of integrity, total. man of credibility. I mean, just this is. a great great human being. And um he and. his wife had two cats and they loved.

each other. They slept together. They. were always together and and uh but one. night they they went nuts on each other. They're attacking each other, hissing. They're growling. They're they're. they're snarling. They're trying to. claw. They're trying to kill each other. They literally had to rip them apart. So, what the heck is going on? And um. they couldn't figure it out. Well, the. next morning the doorbell rings at 9 in. the morning and it was a previous. appointment. A Catholic priest was. bringing a woman who claimed to be a. high priestess of a satanic cult to be.

evaluated by him to see if she was. mentally ill or perhaps demonpossessed. or whatever. So 9:00 the doorbell rings. He opens the door and here's this woman. who claims to be a priestess of a. satanic cult. And she kind of sneers at. him and she says, "How'd you like those. cats last night? Yeah. Wow. Talk about a chill going down. someone's spine. Um he ended up spending. 20 years investigating the uh the.

demonic worlds, written books about it. Incredibly uh credible individual who. talks about um exorcisms that he has. witnessed um that there are things that. take place that as he says are not the. results of a psychiatric issue because. he's a great psychiatrist. He knows what. psychiatry can tell us. And this is. different when people are speaking Latin. in a language they don't know. When. they're one petite woman picked up a. 217lb Lutheran deacon, threw him across. the room. When eight witnesses uh.

observed uh someone levitating off a. bed. Wow. Um this kind of thing. So the. demonic world is real. Satan can present. himself as an angel of light and we have. to be so careful when we think we're you. know our heart is deceitful and we have. we have our own motivations and so. forth. Oh, I you know you have to. consult scriptures consistent with. scripture. I I have a good friend Mark. Middberg you know Mark uh very godly. individual but he knows everything about. me. I know everything about him and and. if I ever have something that I think is.

an impression from God I call Mark. What. do you think? Do you think this is. legitimate or not? We have to be really. careful. Uh but does God communicate in. these gosh there there are 200 examples. in scripture of dreams being used um to. communicate to people. Well, yeah, God. does that through dreams. Um, he speaks. in different ways as you say. So, we. have to be open to it, but but at the. same time, I think discerning. Yeah. Cautious and discerning. So is I hear. this a lot with my friends that are. Catholic and you guys know I was raised.

Catholic and I go back and forth, you. know, and um I go to mass sometimes, I. go to regular church sometimes, but you. know, I hear a lot of the the Catholics. uh that are really into the spiritual. warfare stuff, they talk about kind of. like a some type of a legal system and. is basically allowing. demons to use the legal system to get to. you. So if if if we're not and I'm.

butchering this, but do you guys know. anything about this stuff like some type. of I know what you're talking about. I've I've yeah read and studied, but I. don't I'm not an expert on it, so I'm. out of my lane talking about it. But I. think what they're referring. to is that, you know, God God is a God. of order. He's created laws of nature. Mhm. I think spiritual laws as well. Yeah. And um and yes, what I have heard. is that you know there there is it's.

like the military. There are certain. levels of authority and hierarchy and I. mean Paul references that uh in. Ephesians 5 six in Ephesians 6 powers, principalities, the the dark forces of. evil in the world. And he's talking. about hierarchy. There's a hierarchy. There is a uh an organization to. rel and and and the demonic. And so, um,

I think what they're talking about is. that for instance, um, if we choose to give ourselves over. like let's say let's say you you like. wine, you know, I like wine, uh, or. alcohol, whatever. Um, but you choose to. keep giving yourself over to it again. and again and again. A vice. any Yeah. any anything it can be a good.

thing but um but it can then gain. control over you mastery over you and I. think that is maybe what that that legal. thing is talking about because if you. think about how evil works in the. world I don't think evil really has much. power except in the power of the. lie so I I you know I've used the. example I've I've counseledled you know. like anor exic women in our church.

before, right? Um, but you know, guys. have their own thing. But I remember this woman who literally. was starving herself to death, thinking that she was horribly. overweight and terribly ugly. None of it. was. true. But she had believed a lie. And. that lie was now controlling her to. actually slowly kill herself. Well, same same thing with suicidal.

ideiation. It's a lie there. You know, there's no other way out. It's hopeless. You know, this is going to end the pain. and the despair. Well, near-death. experiencers consistently say, "No, it. doesn't. It's Yeah, it's just a doorway. It's it's it's just a step into another. life, but you take yourself with you and. all the baggage. You got to work it out. here." And um so, yeah. So I think I. think that's probably what they're. talking about that we you know they're.

laws of nature but they're spiritual. laws as well. Okay. And then um just one. more random question that that that. doesn't really fit into the to the. structure of the interview is you know. you guys are talking about both of you. are talking about does it align with. scripture? And so I mean I'm I'm. relatively new to this. I try to read. the Bible. I'll open it up into a random. page and see what's if he's talking to. me or not. Sometimes he.

is. I would say the majority of the time. I don't even understand what I just. read. And so the Bible, at least to me, and I know it is to a lot of other. people, uh, is just a very daunting book. to to try to consume properly. 800,000. words. It can create a lot more. confusion than than than clarity. At. least for me. That's true. And so, you. know, I have a friend, Rob. He sent me. this book. I think it's called the the.

Jesus Calling or something. And it's. every every day it has a a new thing you. read. I get a lot out of that. It's. every day I'm like, "Oh, man." Like, that's like right I read it at the end. of the day before I go to bed. And it. almost every day I'm. like that's like right on the money, man. And um and she's basing that on. scripture. Yeah. Oh yeah. She puts a. scripture underneath of it and I she'll. summarize it and then I read the.

scripture and I'm like, "Oh, I don't. know what that means, but I know what. this means." And so I just I'm just. curious, you know, how do you guys I. mean, when you started, did you just crack it open and read it. from cover to cover or how I mean, cuz. it's it's it's Well, I I read it when I. was an atheist during my investigation. and found a lot of it, like you say, very hard to understand and put together. in a coherent uh way. Um, but what I. discovered is God gifts certain people. to be able to teach the Bible in a way.

that um um truthfully and accurately. conveys to us the the contents. And so I. think being part of a church that. systematically goes through scripture. and is based on the Bible. There's a lot. of church that aren't. Um but a church. where the Bible is taught in a. systematic way is very very helpful. I. found it very helpful being part of a. small group of guys. We'd get together. on Saturday morning and we'd go through. um a book of the Bible together and talk. about it and there's some wonderful.

books uh called commentaries written by. scholars and experts that illuminate. each book of the Bible um and tell you. things that you had no way of knowing. because we don't know the context of a. lot of this stuff independently. was. written a long time ago and a good. commentary really explains the context. uh the background um some of the nuances. of the language that the lay person just. doesn't understand. So I think it's. really important to be part of a a. bibleelving church that teaches the. Bible uh some sort of if you can a.

mentoring or small group relationship. with someone. My wife had a friend named. Linda that they met with all the time. and Linda would help walk her through. scripture. Um um and and I think um over. time it and it takes a it takes a period. of time. You begin to feel like you have. a better handle on what the not only. what the Bible is saying but how I can. find in the Bible guidance for this. particular issue that I'm facing. Um so. I'll call my friend Mark say Mark I'm.

wrestling with something and I I feel. like God's leading me in this direction. and I don't know what to do. and he'll. say, "Lee, you know what? You should. read the fourth chapter of Ephesians or. something and uh let's talk about it. because I think you may or may not be on. the right track." Um, to have somebody. like that in my life who uh cares about. me and helps me and guides me along and. understanding scripture and how to apply. it to my life is invaluable to me. And. and I would encourage anybody who's who. feels that as we all do when you first. open the Bible. It's very confusing. Uh.

take advantage of those resources, but. especially a local church um where you. can really dig in and over time develop. that confidence that you're. understanding not just the general flow. of the Bible, but the specific teachings. of it. Okay. Okay. Yeah. And I would say. and even though I started a church and. led the. church, a small group I think is the. best. Um, and that's, you know, I didn't. come to faith through the church. I I. actually came to faith through a small.

group where I could ask my questions and. wrestle and we were doing that. And what. I like to say is start with. the most clear and then work back from. there. Yeah. So the. Bible, you know, I I I think the reason. it's so daunting is there's no other. book like it. It's not a book. It's a. library of books. It's 66 books, you. know, like we talked about the first. time, written over 1,500 years in three. different languages by 40 different. authors and yet consistent theme about.

God's story throughout human history. The God of all nations, right? So the thing about it though is. throughout it consistently tells of a. time that God would intersect human. history in a form we could understand. God is far beyond what Jesus revealed. but all of the character the full. representation of God in human form. And.

so starting with the gospels with Jesus. life and teachings, the four. eyewitnesses that report on it, because. I think Jesus even said, "I have not. come to do away with the law and the. prophets," which is all the Old. Testament. He says, "I've come to. fulfill them.". which I think means that all of that the. law and the prophets and the history of. the Old Testament and humanity and all. that comes to fulfillment in Jesus and.

then he becomes and his teaching becomes. the lens to look back and understand and. interpret the less. clear. So for instance, he was asked, "How do you sum up the whole Old. Testament? What's most important?". Right? This is Matthew 22. And he says, "The first and most important command is. to love God with all you've got." And. you know, so he's quoting Deuteronomy. 6:4, the Shama, the creed of of Judaism.

Love God. You know, there's only one. God. The second is like it. Love your. neighbor as. yourself. That's in Leviticus. So he's. he's quoting the Torah, the Old. Testament. Um and and then he says, "Do. these and you fulfill all the commands. of. scripture, which basically means all the. rest of the commands of scripture are. commentary on what love actually looks. like." Okay. Okay. So, so there I agree.

with Lee though. There, you know, there. are great tools out there now. I mean, um, I I I read the Bible on my phone. There's, you know, an app, the Uver. Bible, and and you can get a I use the. New Living Translation because it's a. it's a. consistent translation of the original. Greek into English that we can. understand and does a really good job or. the New International Version, those two. translations. And then there are things.

like um right now I'm doing the Bible. recap. It's really good. It takes you. through the Bible, but every day uh this. woman cobble comes on and gives a little. seveninute like here's what you just. read and here's how to make sense of it. I have a friend named Skip Heitzig who. wrote a book called the Bible from. 30,000 ft. And the idea is kind of get. that orientation, you know, you look at. get the basics and get it kind of. figured out in your mind how this all. fits together. That's a great resource.

I like the net bible. You ever use the. net bible? No. Uh, it's a pretty new. translation headed up by Daniel B. Wallace of U Dallas Seminary. But what I. like about it, it has thousands of. footnotes explaining why certain. translation decisions were made. And you. can really get into, oh, you could have. translated this way or this way and the. footnotes and said, this is why we chose. this way because this and this things. you wouldn't understand about the Greek. or the Hebrew. uh but they kind of. illuminate and and help you understand. the decisions that were made beside uh.

behind the translation measures. Thank. you. Thank you. All right, let's get. into the interview now. I know. I was. going to say we started down the rabbit. hole. Had a couple things I had to clear. up. We all value our freedom, privacy, and. financial security. But cyber criminals. don't. Hackers, scammers, and thieves. are trying to steal what is rightfully. yours every day. I'm always looking for. ways to protect my family and to keep.

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All right. So, here we are. We'll get. ready to do the real interview. And um. but first, when do you guys want to. start us off with a prayer? Yeah, I'd be. glad to pray. Yeah. Lord, thanks for. this opportunity to talk not just to. Sean, but all these folks who are. listening in, watching in, we pray that. you would move in all of our hearts to. draw us closer and closer to you. those. that are skeptics or those that are. seekers, we pray that even today be the.

day that they cross that line, receive. you as their uh as a forgiver and leader. through your son Jesus. And um for those. of us who are your children and been. your fathers for a long time, we pray. that you would encourage us, enlighten. us um and uh point us ever more strongly. toward the reality of who you are in. Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Thank you. Cheers. All right. So, let's let's start with. the crucifixion. Yeah. You know, kind of.

the journey to it. What did it mean? And. and we'll just start wherever you want. to start with that. Yeah. I mean, I. would go back a little further to the. Garden of Gethsemane where Jesus, it. says, sweated blood. And I read that. when I was a skeptic and thought that. just shows this is just fantasy land. This is just a a literary device to. suggest that he was under stress or. something. And then I find there are. like 70 cases in medical journals of. this medical phenomenon called he he.

hematidrosis. Hematidrosis which is when. when you're under extreme stress, your. capillaries in your sweat glands break. down and blood seeps in and you sweat a. combination of sweat and blood. And so. there's actually a medical support for. that description of Jesus sweating. blood. But what other uh the other thing. that happens with that medical. phenomenon is that it it it makes your s. skin ever more sensitive. And so Jesus.

was set up for an incre incredibly. painful next step which was being. foggged by the Roman soldiers. Now. there's only like a sentence or so in in. the Bible that says he was flogged. But. that was a incredibly brutal experience. that he was stripped, that he was tied. to a post, that he was beaten with a a. whip that had jagged bits of sheep bone. embedded in it and balls of lead. The. balls of lead would break open the back, the sheep the the the uh jagged sheep.

bone would would cut the flesh. Um. there's a eyewitness to a Roman fgging. who described it this way. He said the. sufferer's veins were laid bare and the. very muscles and tendons and boughels of. the victim were laid open to exposure. So this was a horrific beating. Yeah. Torture. It was horrific beating that he. endured. And it put him in what's called. hypoalmic shock which is shock from a. great loss of blood. And you can see. evidence of that in the fact he couldn't. carry the cross beam of the cross very. far. Uh and also he had great thirst and.

so forth. So, uh, here he is already in. critical condition before he's even. crucified. And then nails are driven. through his wrist, not through the hand. because it would just tear, but driven. through his wrist and through his feet. He's hoisted on the cross. And what. happens when you're in that position is. that it puts incredible stresses on your. chest muscles. So, you can't breathe. And so, you're hanging on that cross, you're having trouble breathing. you can. take uh um uh air um in, but you not.

expel the air. And so you're you're on. the cross, and the only way you can. continue to breathe is by lessening the. stress on your chest muscles. The only. way you can do that is push up with your. feet, which of course have a spike. through them. And your bloodied back is. now scraping against the coarse wood of. the cross. And and you uh you let up, and you can exhale, and then you inhale. again, and then you settle down. And. then you just keep going through that. motion time and time again until you. can't do it anymore and your acidic.

qualities are building up in your blood. Your heart rate is is now getting. irregular and you actually end up dying. of asphixxiation ultimately can't. breathe. That causes your heart to fail. Um and and what's interesting as well is. that this would cause fluid to collect. around your heart and around your lungs. And so when the spear was thrust into. him to make sure he was dead, uh John. interestingly describes water and blood.

coming out. And people think, "Oh, well. that's just a metaphor for baptism or. something." No, no, no. That is what. would happen. the um paricardial eusion. and the in other words the membrane that. of of fluid around the heart and the. lung was punctured and what looked like. water would come out as well as blood. and he was declared dead. Now I used to. think like a skeptic, well wait a. minute, maybe he survived the cross. somehow. Uh maybe maybe he fainted and.

they thought he was dead. Well, that's. been disproven a thousand times in many. different ways, but the Journal of the. American Medical Association several. years ago published an evaluation of the. death of Jesus Christ. And and the. conclusion was quote, "Clearly the. weight of the historical and medical. evidence indicates that Jesus was dead. even before the wound to his side was. inflicted.". So, and in fact, the the the atheist New. Testament scholar Garrett Ludman says.

it's indisputable that Jesus was truly. dead after being crucified. We have no. record anywhere of anyone ever surviving. a full Roman crucifixion. Uh, and not. only do we have multiple reports of his. death in the documents of the New. Testament, we got five in sources. outside the Bible that confirm his. execution. So, we have Josephus, a first. century Jewish historian who worked for. the Romans. Um, Tacitus, another early. historian. Marbar, Sarapian, Lucien, even the Jewish Talmet admits that he. was executed. So this idea that somehow. Jesus.

survived the cross and was revived by. the cool damp air of the tomb um is. ridiculous. Have you Have you seen the. Have you guys seen the movie? I think. it's called The Passion. Yes. Would you. say that was pretty accurate? I would. say it approached how bad it was but. didn't fully capture it. I don't think. they could have because people would. have been so people would have been. vomiting in the audience watching if. they had taken it to the ex don't you. think if they Yeah. Well and and and so.

this is what actually convinced me when. I was a skeptic um you know and and. learning this. So as you know my. father's dying of cancer I read this. first research on near-death. experiences. I'd always said well Jesus. is probably a legend. God, who can know? There's no evidence. And then I read. this and I'm like, "Oh my gosh, maybe. there's this is evidence." And because. so many were talking about in their. near-death experience, this God of light.

who is love and even Jesus, I was like, "Well, maybe I should be more open to. reading the Bible." So, I start reading. the Bible. I go to a small group. Yeah. And and I'm asking my questions and. wrestling. And here's what I learned. that actually it wasn't near-death. experiences that led me to faith. It was. this everything Lee just explained is. history. Historians like that are not. believers, they will not deny these. things. These are facts. Okay. But all. that God told in advance. Yeah. Jesus.

Jesus was a man with an address in. history. I think you said that, didn't. you? Quoting my good friend. Um but but. the who uh the where the the how the why. the what the why all of that God. foretold so that we would know this is. real this is not myth. So for instance. um in Isaiah in the book of Isaiah and. and remember Isaiah.

uh we found a complete copy of the book. of Isaiah in the Dead Sea Scrolls in. 1948. Complete copy that you can read. online if you can read the Hebrew but. you can read a translation. It reads. exactly like our our modern day Bible. And that's how many years before the. death of Jesus? 600 years or so. So 780. years before Jesus Isaiah writes all. these prophecies. Now we have what. prophecies I'm going to tell you. But we. have a surviving copy of the whole.

scroll of Isaiah that carbon dates to. 150 to 300 years before Jesus. So this. is a copy of Isaiah's original written. in 780 BC. But we have it in a museum. Yeah. It tours the United States. You. can go read it online exactly what it. says. And here's what it. says that where that that. um Isaiah. 9 that to Galilee a light has come for a.

child is born, a son is given and he. will be called mighty God, everlasting. father, uh prince of. peace. So this is Judaism. So you don't. you don't call any human God. There's. only one God and he's the the eternal. Yahweh, the I am, the eternal. self-existent one. And yet here in. Judaism in about 780 BC and even before. that with Moses is this foretelling of.

this time that God is going to enter. into humanity and reveal himself in the. form of a son, a child and come to. Galilee. Okay. So that now of the whole. world, this is a very specific place, right? Specific identification of a. human. He's going to come from the line. lineage of David. If you've ever read. the Bible, you always wonder why do they. put all these stupid genealogies in. there because it's relating back. It's.

showing that this is in fact what. happened. Okay. So, so, so that's the. who a little bit of the where. Actually. in Micah 5:2 it also says that uh. Bethlehem uh is going to so though it's. the least of the villages from you will. come a ruler over Israel whose days are. from. eternity. Okay. So, who who comes from. days of eternity, right? So, he's going. to come from Bethlehem and Galilee. So,

that's that's the where. um then you have the when. So, in the. book of. Daniel in Daniel chapter 9, uh Daniel is. praying. They're in captivity in. Babylon, the Jewish people. Okay. So, this is in like the 500s, yeah, 400s BC. Daniel's praying, "What's going to. happen to us?" And an angel, Gabriel,

comes to him and says, "I've I've come. to tell you what's going to happen to. the Jewish people." And he's he's. saying, "Till all human history is. fulfilled." Okay? And he says, "From the. decree of the rebuilding of Jerusalem.". Okay. Jerusalem had been wiped out by. the Babylonians. This is real history. Mhm. from the decree of the rebuilding of. Jerusalem until Mishach, which is what. we translate Messiah, until the anointed. one, the Messiah. comes. And then he he he gives a.

timeline and and literally a timeline. like he he says they're going to. basically they're going to be uh seven 7. + 42 7s. And I think there's a good. reason to believe they're sevens of. years. So 49 * 7 years, 483 years from. the starting point of the decree to. rebuild Jerusalem. Now, interestingly, in Ezra. 7, we have that decree. It was art. Xerxes, who's a Persian king, and the.

decree, though the Bible's written the. Old Testament in Hebrew, this decree is. written in. Aramaic. So that's the the language of. the Persians. So it's literally the. decree just put into the text of. Ezra and it was in the seventh year of. Art. Xerxes. You know, Encyclopedia. Bratannica tells us when Art Xerxes. ruled started in. 465. Um so literally we know from. 457 go 483 years and Messiah's going to.

come. Well, that's 27. AD. It's the when. And by the way, even. if you don't do the church math and. don't follow that, um the angel goes on. and says to Daniel, this is all in. Daniel 9. He says, "The Messiah will. come and be. killed and then the ruler will come who. will destroy the city and the temple.". Okay, so the city of Jerusalem and the. temple. Okay, so think about this. That.

happened too. 70 AD the Roman general. Titus wipes out the city, destroys a. temple and the angel says the Messiah. will be killed before that. happens. So this is this is real. history. So if Jesus isn't the Messiah, there will never be a Messiah. No. And. then in Isaiah 53, now remember all this. we have a copy predating Jesus. So it. wasn't doctorred up after the fact. That's what I initially said as a. skeptic like oh you know Jesus came and. then they just redacted the text and no.

proof no in Isaiah 53 it says and. actually in 52 it paints a picture it it. says that he was so he they're talking. about the suffering servant that's what. he's called and see that's what we don't. realize is that Jesus is going to come. and rule but first he had to come and. suffer and that was foretold and it said. he will be so marred and disfigured like. no human before him. He was barely. recognizable, I think is the way it.

says. And then it says, "To whom has the. arm of the Lord been revealed?" Mhm. Okay. So, the idea is like through. Jesus, we're not seeing all of the. infinite creator God who can't be. contained in time and space. It's like. his arm reaching into our reality. And. it said he grew up before him. So he. grew up. before God the eternal father. Um he was. despised and rejected by. mankind. He was pierced for our.

transgressions. This is before. crucifixion was ever implemented. Even. known this is before the Romans invented. crucifixion. But and Psalm says his. bones were out of joint which is what. happens to your shoulders when you're. crucified. Yeah. And it says and it says. why. So it says what he will do. He. will. And it says he was he by his. wounds we were. healed and for our. iniquities he he took on our punishment. because and this is Isaiah 53. All of us.

like sheep have wandered off. We've gone. astray. But but God laid on him the sins. of us all. See, this might go into the. some of the legal stuff that I was. talking about earlier with with the with. the the whatever you want to call the. legalities of the spiritual realm. I. mean, why did he have to come and go. through that to save us? Well, before we. go there, I want to tie to what Lee was. just saying because even Jesus on the. cross when he's these are all real.

things and he cries out, "My God, my. God, why have you forsaken me?" Well, that hearkens back to who cried that. out? Jesus. Jesus. And that come that's. actually quote in the old days back then. they didn't have numbers on the psalms. So they would quote the first line to. indicate I'm applying the psalm. So here. Jesus in the cross and he says um my god. my god why have you forsaken me? That's. the first line of psalm 22 the psalm of. David in a th000 BC thousand years. before go ahead foretelling I mean the.

bones be out of joint and so forth. this. idea of the crucifixion before. crucifixion was even invented. Yeah. He. says he says um uh they they they pierce. my hands and my feet. They circle me. like a pack of dogs. They divide their. gar my garments among them. The soldiers. cast lots to see who would get his. cloak. Um you know my my mouth is dried. up like a pots herd. He was thirsty. which is a product of hypoalmia. Hypo.

hypoimmic shock. My heart has turned to. wax within me. Okay. So that's what Lee. studied with Dr. Methyl. You want to. Yeah. Dr. Alexander Meel, who was like. the world's leading authority on the. crucifixion of Jesus. I interviewed my. book, The Case for Christ. And uh, of. course, all of this is, you know, predicting it just amplifies the reality. of what we're talking about. This was an. event in history, but it was event. foretold hundreds and hundreds of years. in advance, which gives it that much.

more credibility and supernatural. um uh implications. Yeah. And so, so. here David is is. is foretelling what from the Messiah's. viewpoint what crucifixion was going to. be like. And his heart turns to wax. His. bones are all out of joint. He's pierced. through his hands and his feet. his. heart turned and the hand in that day in. the Greek in Hebrew the hand was. considered or the wrist was considered. to be part of the hand. So yeah yeah.

yeah and that's and that's where people. say it was it was like which you can. imagine the nerve there's a nerve there. and it's like taking your nerve here and. taking pliers and just you know. squeezing it when you insert a 7 in. spike through your wrist a horrible. horrible way to die. They they exempted. Roman citizens from crucifixion. You. couldn't crucify a Roman citizen because. it's too awful. Yeah. They were trying. to send a message, don't screw with. Rome. Yeah. And that's why they put him. up publicly. Yeah. I have a friend who. was a GI from Vietnam and came back and.

was on a street corner, ran into an. evangelist there, and he was Jewish, my. friend, and and um the guy said uh. showed him Isaiah 53 uh and 52 and 53. from um that John's talking about that. foretold Jesus. And he said, "Who do you. think this is talking about?" And my. friend Lewis said, "Well, Jesus, but. obviously that's been doctorred. Obviously, it's been, you know, so he. called his uh his a relative and said, "Send me the original." You know, our. our scriptures I want to compare. He.

read it and realized this is the. original. And the odds of all of this. coming true were so. ridiculously astronomical that he. received Jesus as his forgiver and. leader and he became a pastor. Lewis Liz. is his name. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and so so so what what Lee was saying. that Dr. Methyl said about the the blood. and the water. Yeah. So think about this. and thousand years before Jesus. crucifixion, he says it says my heart.

has turned to wax within me. So what the. eyewitnesses of Jesus crucifixion say is. that he was hung he was hung between two. thieves and they it was on the Passover. which is also significant. Um, and they came and broke the legs of. the two thieves again so they can't push. up and get air. That's how they would. accelerate the death. Break their legs. because they wanted them dead before the. Passover evening began. And and so the.

Romans said, "Okay, whatever." And they. did. They broke their legs, but they. didn't break Jesus legs, which was. another thing. Not a bone of his body. was broken. Right? Instead, the Roman. guy makes sure he's dead by stabbing him. in the side. And like Lee said, John. reports before the medical knowledge of. this would be he didn't know. He didn't. know the implications. What he was. saying, he said blood and water came. out. Okay. So, what that indicates and. what Lee found interviewing Dr. Methil.

is when you have a heart attack, the. paricardial fluid builds up. It's this. clear fluid around the heart. And that's. what h Jesus died of a heart. attack just like Psalm 22 says my heart. has turned to wax within me. Yeah. And. wow. And so I believe and I don't I. don't know what you think about this but. I believe that you know when Jesus cried. out my God my God why have you forsaken. me? And he's referring to that psalm. At.

that moment, he. experienced all of the sins and hurt and. hatred and woundedness of every human. for all history. He felt it. Yeah. And. his heart couldn't take it. His human. heart couldn't take it. So he didn't. actually die. He died on the cross. Yeah. But he died from taking on all our. sins and paying for them. And he of. course was the.

sinless sacrifice. So this is another. wild thing is the whole sacrificial. system of Judaism for 1500 years. and and and they had to sacrifice these. lambs every year to pay for and cover. their sins for the year before so that. their faith in God that that he is going. to pay ultimately. All right. So this is. this whole sacrificial system happened. in the temp in the temple. It could only. happen in the.

temple according to. Moses and the the last Passover. Okay. So Jesus is crucified on the. Passover which is which is when all this. would take place the sacrificial you. know. yearly thing. So he dies on the. Passover and then like we've said 40. years later the temple is destroyed so. no more sacrifices can happen. Right.

So it's a conundrum for Jewish people. Where does Exactly. And John where are. your sins paid for? Well, it was paid. for once and for all. Right. John the. Baptist pointed Jesus and said, "Behold. the lamb of God who takes away the sin. of the world." So he's he's applying. this Roman or this Jewish sacrificial. system to the ultimate sacrifice who was. a sinless son of God who would pay the. sacrifice that we deserve for the sins. that we've committed and yet takes that. on so that we can be forgiven. Now. here's what's fascinating is so so you.

know I. started opening up to God and faith by. reading about near-death experiences. because of the experiences they were. having. But it was that that led me to. faith. And then I start studying the. Bible, but I'm also curious about these. near-death experiences. I'm trying to. figure out how does this fit together? And that's how I, you know, ended up. writing the books I did. But. interestingly, some of the people that. I've interviewed all around the world.

that have had near-death experiences, I. think just confirm the resurrection. Which, by the way, was also in Isaiah. 53. Yeah. after he pays for their sins, he will see the light of life. Yeah. And. be satisfied. Even resurrection is right. there foretold. So I interviewed this. one uh guy, Swedik. He was a Muslim imam. in. Rwanda. Um you can see him on my. podcast. He I mean I you can hear him.

talking about it. Um okay. So he's not. he's not a believer in Jesus. He was. actually an apologist for Islam. So he. would fight in the streets against. Christians, why why they were wrong. And. um amazing story. His mom was a hoou. His dad was a tootsie. Wow. During the. genocide, tore ripped their family. apart. Um he ended up a street kid at. age eight doing cocaine, dealing. cocaine. And then there's this whole. experience where he he has a mental.

breakdown and um and this these people. from the Anglican church pray for him. and and he's healed. It was like a. Nebuchadnezzar kind of like wow and he's. healed and he didn't know what to do. with that and. um and then like a year and a half later. he gets blood cancer and it's fourth. stage blood cancer and so they put him. on pallet of care. he's going to. die. And his mom actually worshiped the.

African goddess Beo. His dad was a chic, so an imam in the Muslim faith. And he. had become an imam. Um, nothing the Muslims do could heal. him. Nothing Beo could do could heal. him. And his mom out of. desperation knowing that he had been. healed after they prayed in Jesus' name. goes to the Anglican church and says, "Will you ask Jesus your God to heal. him?" And they said, "Yes, we will, but.

you need to pray to him, too.". Sweetie. dies and and he is in this hellish. place. He called it he he said to me it. was like a slaughter house. That's the. way he described it. And these. three humanlike but very. distorted people, creatures come in. Uh, one one with an axe, one with a Sith, and and a bucket. And And they're about.

to like put the axe through his chest. It's like a torture. Mhm. And he says, "Into into this room steps this man of. light in a robe with a beard. And he. holds out his hands and in his wrists. are. holes and light coming out of them and. light coming out of him into into me. What he said like looking right through. every part of me. And he said, "And I.

felt a peace and a warmth cuz he was. terrified. And suddenly he's at peace.". And he said, "I knew who this was." And. he knew because when the passion of the. Christ had come to Kiraali, Rwanda, he'd. been given three free movie tickets and. that was one of them. And even though he. didn't want to see something about. Jesus, he wanted his full money's worth. So he. went and and Jesus says to him, wow, he.

never said, "I'm Jesus." But I mean, he's he knows. He said, "I died for. mankind. You were among those I died. for. never deny it again and tell. everyone. And. Swedik sits up and a sheet falls off his. face and suddenly there are all these. people screaming and running and he's. like, "What's going on?" And it was the. it was he had died that evening. It was. the next morning and it was his burial.

He looks down to the right and there's a. grave dug. Wow. Wow. And he and and he. goes, "Jesus is here. Jesus saved me. Jesus brought me back from hell. And. half I mean half the Muslims are just. freaked out and half of them came to. faith that day. But here's the thing. He is now an Anglican pastor and has had. seven attempts on his life including by. his father. Wow. Because you can't you.

can't become a Christian out of certain. Islam. So what motivates him to keep. doing that? Yeah. This was and he's he's. still going at it today. He's a great. young guy. Wow. Um but my but my point. is he's not the only one who has seen. the risen Jesus and the holes. He keeps. the scars. He keeps the holes because they are the. sign of his love. Wow. They're the reminder of the the. price he would pay for every one of us.

Wow. That's awesome. So by going back to my question, yeah, about the legalities and why why did he. have to do that to pay for our sins? Well, our sins are what separate us from. God. Mhm. God is holy. God is perfect. God is pure. We're not we we sin every. day. We violate his commands. Yeah. Let. me tell you about it. Um and that has. separated us from God. And the question.

is how do we become reconciled with God? Somebody has to pay the the price of the. sin. And either we do, which would be an. eternity separated from God, or Jesus. said, "Let me pay the price for you on. the cross, the the penalty you deserve. for the sins that you've committed so. that I can offer forgiveness and eternal. life as a free gift of my grace and. still be just." and still be just. That's the key. And and and so Romans um. uh 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is. death." In other words, what we earn,

what we deserve because of the sin in. our life is death, which is separation. from God for eternity. But the verse. says, the free gift of God is eternal. life through Christ Jesus our Lord. It's. Jesus who paid the penalty to to bridge. that gap between us and God. And when we. receive his free gift of grace, then we. become reconciled with God forever. And. um uh so it required a payment of that. kind of the sinless son of god in order.

to uh atone for the sins that we've. committed. I'll tell you, you know, in. in the new book and imagine the god of. heaven, one of my favorite stories. I. got to know him well, uh, is a a man. named Santosh aki who's a Hindu. He grew. up in India. Um, manufacturing engineer, very smart guy. He has a um, he has his. uh, pancre or his gallstones erupt into. his pancreas. He's in the hospital for a.

week. He's got a 200 beat per minute. heart rate. They can't get it down in. order to operate. He hears code blue. Code blue. His heart. stopped. Um, and he like most near-death. experiences, he he said to me this. He. said, "I thought when you die, it's just. nothing. Or maybe I'd come back as. another life form." But he said, "That's. not what happened." He said, "I I saw my.

body down below and this divine light. comes brighter than the sun but not hard. to look at." And he said, "I fell in. love with this. light." And cuz I knew this light was. for me and was was there to protect me. And this this this God of light takes. him uh. and similar through journey to this. place and he finds himself standing up.

high looking out over what he described. to me as a giant compound. Now, if you've ever been to India, there. there gated communities everywhere. They're gates with high walls and they. call them compounds. But what he was describing was this the. city. thousands of miles he said square. shaped and he's looking in and he's. describing these this these beautiful. grounds and other buildings of other.

worldly building material. That's the. way he described it. He was a. manufacturing engine, which is what I. love is these people are still. themselves full uh even on the other. side. And and he's describing this place. and he longs to go in and he said, "This. is this is the longing of every human. heart to live there in this place." And. he was looking for a way in. And he. said, "I counted." There were 12 gates. He said, "I counted all the way around. because your eyesight there is like.

telescopic." Which I used to think, "No, that's not biblical." Then I read. Revelation 21, John is taken in the. spirit to a very high mountain. and yet he reads the names on the. foundation stones of the city. Yeah. How? Right. So, Santosh says all these. same things. He's describing the holy. city of God just like John does in. Revelation 21. He's a Hindu. Yeah. He's. never read the Bible. He's only he's. only read the vdas and you know the.

Bhagavad Gita and the the Hindu. scriptures. Then he's like where am I? And he realizes I'm up on a very high. platform looking and he looks down to. his left and he said what I saw. terrifies me even to say it to this day. He said, "Cuz what I saw was an abyss of. darkness and at the end of it a lake of. fire that I would fall into if I fell. And I knew if I go there, it's hopeless. There's there's no way out." And it's.

like he got a vision of hell and he. doesn't want to go there and he wants to. go in the city, but he he can't. He sees. angels guarding the gates. He's like, "How do I get in?" And then he turns and. there on the platform, he he. sees this. He said, "I knew this was the Almighty. on this giant throne, but he's in the. form of a. man." And he he looks at him. Now, he. later said, "I believe that was the. risen Jesus." He didn't know that at the.

time. He said, "Because I looked up into. his eyes and his eyes were like. lightning." Well, that's what John. describes in Revelation 21 of the risen. Jesus. He said his eyes were like like. lightning and his feet gold like or like. bronze glowing metal. Santosh said the. same thing. And. he instantly as soon as he looks in his. eyes, his whole life flashes before him. And this is a life review which we. talked about. You know, it's common in.

near-death experiences because time. doesn't work the same way on on the. other side. Um, and so he reexperiences. life and. realizes because of his sin, I deserve. hell. I deserve that separation from. God. And he falls to his knees and says, "Forgive me. Forgive me, God. Forgive. me. Forgive. me." And he expected that the Lord was. going to send him there. And he said, but when he spoke to me, he said,

"Stosh, I'm going to send you back. and when you go back, you must love love. your family and especially your. daughter. She needs you right now. And. he said, I was shocked. I was shocked. because I knew what I deserved. And and. he said, "God is just." That's what he. said to me. God is just. And he knew. what he deserved. And by the way, this. is a commonality of near-death. experiences. And we can we can hide and. pretend and you know defer you and.

deflect our our wrongs and you know. justify but on the other side it's all. very clear. And he said but God's voice. was so tender and merciful and. compassionate and full of love for me. I. was shocked. And they had this. conversation because he's because what. happened is he sees a a very narrow he. called it the very narrow gate or door. right to the side of the throne that was.

open to him into the kingdom of God. And. and and he was confused. He was like, "Okay, all these 12 gates are closed, but that narrow gate is open." And he. wanted to go in, but he knew he couldn't. without permission. And this is the. authority of all. authorities. And so after this long. conversation, we're we're basically God, you know, he's he's. asking which mosque, which synagogue, which temple, which church, what do I. do? And he's thinking religious.

observance. And the Lord says to him, "No, Santosh, I want to see how. honest, how honest, how real you are. with me. Not one day a week, but 24/7, 365 days, walk with me. And then he. said, "The wages of sin is. death." Exactly what Lee just quoted. from Romans 6:23. So this Hindu guy, right? And then he says,

"Surrender yourself." And Santosh says, "I should underline surrender. surrender. yourself to me in your daily life. And Santosh comes back. Oh well, before. he came back, he said, "Lord, when I. when I come back, I want to go through. that narrow gate into your kingdom. How. do I go through that narrow. gate?" He didn't he didn't tell him and. he sends him back. Okay. So, and I told. Lee, we were we were talking about this.

and I told him, you know, it's so. fascinating. because God for people who have have not. necessarily searched or don't know. Jesus, he often gives them parables even. on the other side. Yeah. Which is. fascinating because Jesus taught in. parables and no one was a parable. A. parable is a is a teaching that doesn't. just tell you what to do. It makes you. think and it makes you search. And if. you're if you're just impatient, you're. like, just either tell me or I'm done. with you, God's like, okay, I guess.

you're done with me, but I want you to. seek. And when you seek, you will find. And that's why Jesus taught in parables. He wanted to see what's in the. heart. See, because because that's what. God is after. He's after our hearts. He. wants relationship. That's what he said. to Santosh. I want relationship. How. honest will you be walking with me? Santosh didn't understand any of that. But he comes. back and he is seeking God every day. He's praying. He's he's like, "Lord, you.

weren't like the gods I learned about in. the vadas. Who are you? Who is this God. of compassion and love and mercy? I want. to know you." And his daughter, two. years later, so he's seeking for two. years, his daughter is invited to sing. at a church with a friend because she. was a coral major in college. Santosh. goes to hear her. sing, walks into the church and feels. the same loving presence of this God of. light. And the message that day was.

Matthew 7. uh the about the narrow gate that leads. to heaven. There's a narrow gate through. which you must go through. And then John. 10 where Jesus said, "I am the gate for. the sheep. Whoever enters in through me. will be saved and will find eternal will. find. rest. And Santosh was blown away. He was. like, "Oh my gosh, this is like just for. me." So he goes home, he starts reading. the Bible. He said, "John, everything I.

experienced, I found in that book." Wow. Wow. And he became a a follower of. Jesus. M so you know the the risen Jesus. is now being testified to by I've. interviewed people from every religious. background having a similar. experience in a near-death experience of. the risen. Jesus. So, not only is there biblical. evidence from all history, but I think.

what God's doing today is he's saying, "Look, I created all people of all. nations to be my children." And like Lee. said, the reason he did what he did. through Jesus is so that anybody. anywhere can simply turn their heart. back to God wanting forgiveness because. we all know we've screwed up and we. continue to. And wanting his. leadership like meaning God, you get to. be God instead of me playing God.

What's your will instead of just what's. my will be done. Yeah. It's awesome. Going back to the crucifixion, we were. having a conversation downstairs about. Jesus was was praying to God on the. cross and in and we were talking about. the Holy Trinity. And I I know we talked. about this. Yeah. In our interview, Lee, but I'd like to revisit it. So, if Jesus.

is also God, who was he praying to? Well, the Trinity is God the Father, God. the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Um, three. persons, one God. Um, what's. interesting, Jesus at one point shortly. before he was killed, got up before a. group and he said, "I and the Father are. one." But the Greek word for one there. is not masculine. It's neuter. Which.

means Jesus was not saying, "I and the. Father are the same person." He was. saying, "I and the Father are the same. thing. We're one in nature. We're one in. essence. And that's why people killed up. picked up stones and kill him because. they said, "You're just a man and you're. claiming to be God." So Jesus claimed to. be the son of God. He he not he was. saying, "I'm not I'm not the same. person, but we are the same God." And uh. that's part of the the mystery of the. trinity that he was praying to the. father. And on the cross, it's. interesting too when he prays, "Father,

forgive them for they know not what they. do." Here are these people. We've talked. about the horror of the cross, the. flogging it went through, this this this. torture of the cross. And yet the. imperfect tense of the Greek in the. original language in which that passage. is written suggests he didn't just say. it once, but he kept repeating it over. and over again. Maybe even while the. nails were being driven through his. feet, maybe while the nails were being. driven through his hands, maybe when he. was hoisted on the cross, he kept.

repeating. He kept praying, "Father, forgive them. Father forgive them. Father forgive them for they know not. what they do. I mean that is an. expression of the love of God that you. know how can we not pray for people in. our life who are spiritually confused. after him praying for people who are so. depraved they're torturing to death. Um. but um that just is another expression. of the the depth and the breath of the. love of God for us. So how how would you guys articulate the.

the hol eternity? So I have a whole chapter in imagine the. god of heaven. Um, and I am trying to show that because. what I found fascinating is people I've. interviewed who had no prior. understanding of the triune nature of. God, which let me just say that the word. trinity is not in the Bible. Okay? So, what we have instead is a progressive.

revelation of the mystery of God. So, all the way back. with with Moses. So before Moses, he was. the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. So. the forefathers, right? Um but even to. Abraham, he appears with two angels as a. man. Um Genesis, where is that? Genesis. 15. Yeah. Under the under the oak. Yeah. Of.

memory or whatever it is. and and um and. and Abraham worships and offers. sacrifice to him. So even then I and and. I think that's that's when it says the. angel of the Lord. Um many times I think. this is the. pre-incarnate Jesus the third person of. the trinity but there's not the word. trinity but the idea is there. So again. uh to.

Moses goes up on Mount Si and sees this. he calls it this burning bush. Okay. So. it's a brilliant light that doesn't burn. the bush. Well hello. That's exactly. what near-death experiencers are meeting. all over the the globe. This God of. light, they say brighter than the sun a. thousand times and yet not hard to look. at. Mhm. And God, he asks, "Who are. what's your. name?" And he says, "I am is my name.".

Yahweh. But then he says, "I am." Tell. them I am. I am who I am. I am. Meaning. the ex the self-existent one. Now, here's what's interesting. Jesus then, I. think in the same passage, is it John 8. that you just quoted? I think so. Yeah. He says, "Before Abraham was born,". okay? Abraham was the father of the. Jewish nation, right? So 2,000 years. before before Abraham was born, ego amii. is the Greek I.

am. So he's applying that to himself. And they pick up stones to stone him. because they understood exactly what he. was claiming. And then then they said, "How can you being a man claim you know. you you were before our father Abraham?". And then he said, "I saw Abraham saw my. day and he rejoiced in it." So he's very. clearly associating with the God of the. Old Testament. Now in in the book I So.

one person I interviewed, Heidi, she was. Jewish, grew up in a Jewish home, but. her father was an atheist. Um a lawyer. So what's the thing with lawyers? uh and not a nice man. He was ab very. abusive. And every night he said to his. girls, "There is no God. Your life is. worthless. Jesus Christ is the biggest. hoax ever perpetrated on mankind." Like. this is his mantra every night. And he.

was also he was very abusive. Wow. But. Heidi, despite the fact that her mom was. agnostic, her dad is atheist, always. believed in God and prayed to God every. night. And she remembers as a little. eight-year-old girl, you know, coming. talking to God as she was going to bed. about the abuses and the things and. sorting it out and always felt like God. was there comforting her, putting her to. bed at night. So, she always felt like. God was my. father. At 16, she's riding bearback on.

her horse on a mountain side. Her horse. steps back off, rears up, steps back. off, and lands on her and crushes her. She said, "I I was 30 feet up in the air. instantly. I knew I was dead." She sees. her sisters panicking. She said, "But I. I felt fine. I I was at peace. I just. felt bad that they had to watch me die. like this." And she said, "And then I. see a light over my shoulder." And it. was a cloudy day, so I I wondered like, "What is that? It's not the sun." And. she turns and she said, "There floating.

with me 30 feet in the air is this." She. said, 'I knew who this was instantly and. he was this man of light, but he was. Jesus. And she said,"I knew he was. Jesus. No doubt in my mind." And she. said, "I know you." And he gets this big. grin. And she said, "It was like this. reunion because I knew this was the God. I had prayed to my whole life." No doubt. in her mind. And interestingly, Jesus.

then shows her her her life review and. he shows her when she was a little girl. of eight. praying. She sees him there like in in. what was really happening spiritually. Then he takes her. He grabs her hand and. takes her and they're off. And he takes. her, she. said, to this this light that. was felt.

infinite that they enter into that she. knew was God and she found herself, she. felt like with God the. father, but she said, but Jesus was also. there. you couldn't separate them. And. then she said to me, I don't understand. how God can be light and God can be a. man and God can be love. But that's what. I experienced. So then he puts her he he says it's not.

your time. You have to go back. And when. he puts her back in her body, Jesus. does. He left, but he left his presence. with her. she said. And she later. realized that she thinks that was his. Holy Spirit who was who was always with. her to guide her. Now, this is a little. Jewish girl raised by atheists and yet. she testifies to the triune nature of. God. And then I interview another woman,

12-year-old nurse, almost the same. identical experience. Dean Braxton who also had a near-death. experience and and he said to. me, "You could not separate them there.". So when I was speaking to Jesus, I knew. I was also speaking to the father and. the holy spirit. And when I was there at. the throne of God with the father. speaking to him, though Jesus was always.

here with me, he was also there. And I. can't explain how that makes sense. And. in our time and space it doesn't but it. made perfect sense there and and what he. says is they are. one. So in the book I give an analogy. and um you can see a picture of it. there. So by an we it's a contradiction. to us right we say okay three persons. but they're only one. Well that that. doesn't work. The three of us are not.

one right? Okay, but think about it by. analogy. So imagine I create a two a. flat two-dimensional world, okay? That. only has forward and back and side to. side. There's no up or down, all right? In this flat world. And then I decide I'm I'm going to enter. this world and I stick my three fingers. through that. plane. The flat people there would see. three slices of me. Okay.

But what if I said to them, "Well, I'm. actually not three slices. I'm actually. one being." But that would be a. contradiction to them because in. flatland, three slices can never stack. up an arm into one being because that. can only happen on a third dimension. They don't even have that dimension. M. and so what I say is perhaps and every. every analogy breaks down. So I'm not. claiming to have the ultimate analogy,

but. perhaps father, son, and spirit, the the. personhood of God unites in dimensions. beyond ours in ways that sound like a. contradiction to us, but in fact, it's. not. And that actually is what. near-death. experiences tell us. I think that's. fascinating by the way. Um, am I a. heretic? No, no, no. I'm processing it. But I for me, uh, when you when you, uh,

delve into. scriptures A to Z, Genesis to. Revelation, I see four things being. taught. Number one, the Father is God. Number two, the Son is God. Number. three, the Holy Spirit is God. And. number four, there is one God. That's. the trinity. How it fits together, I. think your analogy is fascinating. Um, we may not understand. I don't see it as. a contradiction. I see it as something.

beyond our perhaps ability to. comprehend, but I don't think it's. necessarily a contradiction. Um, but um, a mystery. Yeah. Mystery. A mystery. Yeah. Yeah. But there are lots of. mysteries. I mean, go try to understand. quantum physics. Tried. Try to understand my wife. I'm going to tell Leslie you said that. She says that about me. So, yeah, I'm. sure she does. Well, and and and so, but. think about it. Even what I told you.

before about Isaiah. 53, to whom has the arm of the Lord been. revealed? So Jesus, this suffering. Messiah foretold was the arm of the Lord. reaching in like me reaching into the. flat land, right? And people, you know, skeptics have said over the years to me, you know, like, okay, you know, so Jesus. is God. Well, then and supposedly he. died on a cross. Then who's ruling the. universe while he's dead, right? Or or.

while he's here. And again, that that. assumes that the infinite God who is. spirit was somehow completely contained. in the body of Jesus. And he wasn't. And. that's not the claim of. scripture. So yes, just like I can. reveal myself as a slice in flat land. and they might even kill me in flat. land, but I'm much more than my little. slice. Okay. And that's why I think when he's.

saying I and the father are. one, it's really true. Um but God and this is this is a. phenomenal thing if you think about it. that God is love and every bit of love. we've ever experienced it's comes from. him. It's we just borrow it. We're just. borrowing. If God is love there must be. an object of that love which is the. trinity which is existing from eternity. past in a perfect love relationship.

Otherwise if it's just God one in one. God one person not triune who's he. loving before the exist before he. created humankind. So God God is a. relationship and that's why relationship. is so important to. God not only not only his God's. relationship with us but also our. relationships with each other. And that. is consistently these near-death. experiences around the globe. When. they're in God's presence and they have. a life review, they reexperience their.

lives. But what they consistently say. is, you know what was interesting is the. emphasis was on my relation, my. interactions with people, not my. accomplishments. And what consistently. God wants them to see is that every. little act of. kindness mattered and every little mean. thing mattered and it had a ripple. effect through. humanity. And they consistently say. exactly what Moses said and what Jesus. taught. God is love and how we love or.

treat one another is what matters most. So again, you have these near-death. experiences. I mean that's why that's. why I'm doing what I'm doing. Yeah. Because I think they are testimony to. again I don't advise people to believe. everything every near-death experiencer. says. I. don't. But the commonality of. consistency of what they say fully. aligns with what God's revealed.

throughout history. And I think we have. a reason to trust it first, the Bible. But this just confirms that it's another. window. It's another window of witness. that yes indeed this is this is true and. real and God loves us more than we can. possibly imagine. I mean so much. so he took the bullet. It's it's just. like you know I mean you know the. greatest act of heroism is someone who. jumps in front of the bullet for you.

know a fellow soldier right? Well that. is the love of God. Yeah. Wow. Thank you. Let's take a quick break. and um when we come back, we'll we'll. get into the resurrection. Yeah. If you take your health as. seriously as I do, you know how. important hydration is. That's why I. want to tell you about Hoist. Hoist is. made in the USA and has three times the. electrolytes and half the sugar compared.

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shopify.comsrs to upgrade your selling. today. shopify.comsrs. All right, we're back. from the break. Like I said, we're we're. getting close to Easter here. So So why. is the resurrection so important? What. is the Well, we said earlier Jesus. claimed to be the son of God. Said I and. the father are one. Um people recognize. that was his claim. They picked up so. and so kill him. But so what? I could. claim to be God. You know, John could.

well maybe not John. Uh, anybody could. claim to be God. But if Jesus claimed to. be God, died, and then came back to life. on the third day, that's pretty good. evidence he's telling the truth. So, I. for me as a skeptic, the first. confirmation of his claim of divinity. was whether or not he fulfilled this um. prophecy of the Messiah returning from. the dead. And I think the evidence is. clear. I think it's compelling. Um, I. look at it, I summarize it with four.

words that begin with the letter E. That. way, it's easy to remember. First E is. execution. We talked earlier about all. the evidence that Jesus truly died when. he was crucified. Even the atheist. scholar Garrett Ludimus says it's. indisputable that he was dead. Even the. Journal of the American Medical. Association says that. Yeah. There's no. historian that would doubt that today. No. So, E first E is for execution. Second, E stands for the word early. We. have early accounts that he rose from. the dead. In other words, reports that. go back virtually to the cross itself.

Why is that important? Because I used to. think like a lot of skeptics that the. resurrection was a legend. Got to give. you the fact he was dead. Okay, I give. you that. But raising from the dead, that's a legend. It must have taken few. generations to develop in the ancient. world. Stories were invented. Mythologies were created. That's where I. thought it came from. But we have. preserved for us a creed of the earliest. Christians. The first Christians right. there in the first century gathered. around this creedle statement based on. facts that they knew to be true. It's. kind of a rallying point. And this creed.

says Jesus died. Why? For our sins. He. was buried. On the third day, he rose. from the dead. And then it mentions the. specific names of eyewitnesses and. groups of eyewitnesses to whom he. appeared, including 500 people at once, including a skeptic like James, a half. brother of Jesus, who didn't follow. Jesus during Jesus' lifetime and yet. ended up dying as a leader of the church. in Jerusalem. Why? Because Jesus. appeared to him. So we've got this. credle statement that that that. including named eyewitnesses and groups.

of eyewitnesses that has been dated back. by scholars including James DG Dunn who. is one of the most eminent historians of. he he recently passed but um of the last. hundred years in England um it has been. dated back to within months of the death. of Jesus. So if I can from memory quote. what Dr. Dunn said he said this. tradition, this creed, we can be. entirely confident was formulated as a. creed within months of Jesus death. I.

mean, that is a news flash from ancient. history far too quick in my opinion to. be a legend that developed over the 150. 200 years later. Well, and it's recorded. in 1 Corinthians 15. That's right. If. anybody wants to check it out, which was. written, you know, sometime in the 60s. No, no, no. In the 50s. Yeah. 50s. Yeah. Well, but we can we can go back 20 years. after Jesus crucifixion. So, that's not. time for legend to develop. Not even not. only that, you're right, but um within.

20 years or so, that would tell us it. existed, but we know Saul of Tarsus. became the Apostle Paul 1 to three years. after the crucifixion. So, he's on the. road to Damascus. He has this encounter. with the risen Christ. He becomes the. Apostle Paul. Immediately he goes into. Damascus and he meets with some. apostles. Many people believe this is. when he was given that creed that he. later wrote to the church in Corinth. Yeah. Others say it was 3 years later he. went to Jerusalem and he met for 15 days. with two eyewitnesses to the resurrected.

Jesus who are named in the creed, Peter. and James. And they had a meeting in. Jerusalem for 15 days. And some believe. that's when he was given the creed by. two people named in the creed as. eyewitnesses. Either way, that means. within one to six years after the death. of Jesus, his creed is already in. existence. Therefore, the beliefs that. make up that creed go back even earlier. virtually to the cross itself. And then. you have a schol like James D say, "No, it's within months." Um, so this is and. even Bartman, doesn't he? I'm not sure. where he's at on that, but but you know,

I I read stuff like um um Can we go. through the timeline real quick? Yeah. Of what it So, he died on the cross. They put him in a tomb. Yes. Why was it three days? Well, it's um why. why was it 3 days? You know, he. predicted like Jonah was in the fish for. 3 days that that he would be coming back. in 3 days. So, that was kind of a uh I. don't think it's a requirement. necessarily, but it was 3 days on third. day he returned. The the Jewish word for.

day was reckoned as an ona, which is o n. ah, and it meant a night and a day. um. is is an ona but any portion of an ona. was considered as the whole and so he. was he died on Friday he was in the tomb. on Saturday and he rose sometime Sunday. morning that's parts of three days that. he was in two one day for fully and. parts of two others but according to the. Jewish reckoning of time that's the. third day so he returns on the third day.

um you don't think there's any. significance to that. what would you say John I'm I I I I. don't I I think the fact that he did. liken it to the sign of the sign of. Jonah. This generation will not be given. a sign except the sign of they were. demanding. I mean, just think about. this. So he he had been healing people, raising people from the dead. That's why. he had thousands following him.

everywhere. That's why the Jewish. authorities were were and he was also. calling them hypocrites cuz they were. playing a religious game. Their hearts. were far from God, he said. So they look. good on the outside and go read Matthew. 23. Man, he just rips him a new one. Seriously, he does. He He holds no. punches back. And so they are like, "We. can't put up with this because they are. leading Israel astray away from us and. our power and our pre prestige." And so.

they decide to crucify him. And but but. they were saying, "You're really the. Messiah. Give us a sign." Yeah. Give us. a sign. He said, "You're not going to be. given any sign." I mean, given them tons. of signs. We we talked about all the. signs that were already in their. scriptures that direction. I mean, all. of it's there, right? He's going to he's. going to uh come from Bethlehem. He was. born in Bethlehem. He's going to come. from Galilee. He did most of his. ministry in Galilee. It's all in Isaiah.

They So, they were they were blinded to. it because of their egos and their. desire for power and greed and money. Yeah. So, he says, "This generation will. be given no sign except the sign of. Jonah, which would be three days." So, that it's a fulfillment of that. So I. think that's the significance. That. would be the significance. So you've got. the execution, the early and by the way, it's not the only early report we've got. of the resurrection. We have others in. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, the book of. Acts, all of which were circulating.

during the lifetimes of Jesus. contemporaries and and they would have. pointed out the errors if they were. making this stuff up. So we've got an. execution, he's dead. We got early. reports that he rose from the dead too. quick to be a legend. Third, we have an. empty tomb. And we could talk all day. about all the evidence the tomb was. empty. But the best evidence to me was. we know from sources inside and outside. the New Testament that when the. disciples began proclaiming that Jesus. had risen, what the enemies of Jesus. said was, "Oh well, um, the disciples.

stole the body." Now they're admitting. the tomb is empty. They're they're. admitting it's empty. The ones who. crucified it. Yeah. They're just trying. to explain how it got empty. It's like. if you're a teacher and a student comes. up to you and says, "The dog ate my. homework." that student is admitting it. Look, I don't have my homework, but I. can explain what happened to it at the. dog ate. It's the same thing. So, everybody in the first century, whether. they're supporters of Jesus explicitly. saying the tomb is empty or the enemies. of Jesus implicitly admitting it was. empty. Everybody's conceding the tomb is. empty. The real question is, how did it.

get empty? And you go through the usual. list of suspects. The Ronins weren't. about to steal the body. They wanted. Jesus dead. The Jewish leaders of the. day weren't about to steal the body. They wanted Jesus to stay dead. The. disciples weren't about to steal the. body. They didn't have the motive. They. didn't have the means. And they didn't. have the opportunity. In fact, I found. seven ancient sources, six of them. outside the Bible that report that the. disciples live lives of deprivation and. suffering as a result of their. proclamation that Jesus had risen. Why. were they willing to do that? How many. died for their faith without recounting.

it? A and their willingness to die is. well established. How some a couple of. them died gets a little bit misty in. history. But their willingness to die, seven sources tell me that they. willingly live lives of deprivation and. suffering. Think about this. Of all. human beings who've ever lived on the. planet, they were in a unique position. to know is this a lie or is it true? Because they were there. They touched. the resurrected Jesus. They talked with. him. They ate with them. Of all people. who ever lived, they knew the truth.

They didn't just believe it. They just. have faith in it. They knew the truth. and knowing the truth, they were willing. to die for it. That's the difference. between a terrorist today who crashes an. airplane into the trade center belie. He. believes if he dies that way, he's going. to go to paradise. Does he know for. sure? No, he couldn't know for sure. He. just believes it so much that he's. willing to die that way. That tells me. nothing about the veracity of his. claims. But je but the disciples were in. a position to know for a fact. Is this.

true? Is it false? knowing it was true, they were willing to die for it. So, we. have an execution. He was dead. We have. early reports, too quick to be a legend. We've got the empty tomb. And then. fourth E is eyewitnesses. Um over a. period of time, Jesus appears alive in a. dozen different instances to more than. 515 people, a lot more than that, but uh. to to doubters and to skeptics, to men, to women, to groups, to individuals, indoors, outdoors, daytime, nighttime.

Um, what I found fascinating in studying. this as a skeptic is that when you study. ancient history and you're looking at. some fact about the life of Alexander. the Great, for instance, and you dig. down, how do I know this fact is true? Most of the time it's based on one. source, maybe two sources of. information. But for the conviction of. the disciples that they encountered the. resurrected Jesus, we have no fewer than. nine ancient sources inside and outside.

the New Testament confirming and. corroborating the conviction of the. disciples that they encountered the. risen Jesus. I can tick them off real. quick if you so you know what they are. The first is that creed I mentioned. earlier. A creed whose historical. credentials are so strong that one of. the few Jewish New Testament scholars. Pinchius Leed said it may be taken as a. statement of eyewitnesses. Second, we. have Paul's testimony because Paul said, "I encountered the risen Christ and and. then he got to know the disciples which.

which was just what people around the. world are encountering today on the. Damascus." And Paul was one of the. Pharisees of the Pharisees who had Jesus. crucified. Right. So he was he was the. enemy. Yeah. Exactly. It's like it's. like the Taliban now you know our side. kind of thing. Yeah. That's right. And. it says on the Damascus road he's going. to arrest and kill Christians. He was. there when Steven was martyed. Given two. thumbs up uh because Steven believed in.

Jesus as the Messiah. And he's like. that's wrong. We're getting rid of these. people. When on the Damascus road, this. brilliant God of light appears to him. Sound familiar? All over the world. today. This is near-death experiences. Who are you, Lord? He asked. And he. says, "I am Jesus whom you're. persecuting.". And Jesus didn't tell him the gospel. He. didn't tell him what to do. He said, "You'll be told." And then later sends.

Ananas to explain to him. And Paul still. had a choice because he had a lot to. lose. Yeah. Is he is he going to leave. behind his power and his prestige and. you know and then and then suffer cuz he. did. Yeah. But um I mean that's a you. know that's a huge absolutely huge no. incentive to do that. He but what's also. interesting is after he became the. Apostle Paul he became friends with many. of the disciples the other eyewitnesses. So he knew Peter, James, and John. And.

he says in first Corinthians in his. letter he wrote he said whether it is I. or they this is what we preach. So he's. saying look I was I encountered the. risen Christ so have they. So he's. confirming that the disciples were. eyewitnesses. He's another point of. confirmation. The third um uh area of. evidence corroboration is the book of. acts. Even skeptical scholars will. accept that the book of acts is the. account of the spread of the early. church. And what is the thing that drove. it? It was a proclamation of the.

resurrection. So here we have Peter in. Acts chapter 2 who gets up before a. crowd and he says, "Men of Israel, listen to these words. This Jesus, a man. attested to you by miracles and wonders. and signs which he did in your midst. You know that he did." He's appealing to. their common knowledge. And then he. says, "This Jesus God raised from the. dead to which we're all witnesses." And. how did they react? History tells us. that 3,000 people said, "Peter, we know. you're telling this truth. What do we. do?" they repented and the church was.

born. So that's the first three sources. Then we have the next four sources, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, which are. historical biographies based on. eyewitness accounts or what, nine. appearances of the risen Jesus in those. four gospels. So that's seven ancient. sources. But then plus you got Luke who. interviewed Mary. Oh yeah, there's other. sources, right? Um but we we have. sources from people who sat under the. teachings of the eyewitnesses. So, for. instance, if if uh you still were. teaching at your church in Austin, if uh.

Sean, if you were to come to his church. for 3 years, you'd have a pretty good. idea what he believes, right? Yeah. Well, we have writings by people who sat. under the teachings of the apostles. themselves and can report what they said. about the resurrection. So, we have a. letter that was written by Clement. Clement was, we believe, ordained by. Peter himself. And Clement writes a. letter in the first century to the. church in Corinth. And he says um that. the um the disciples had uh complete.

confidence. Why? Why did they have so. much confidence? Because of the. resurrection of Jesus Christ because. we're eyewitnesses to the risen Lord. And then Polycarp uh who was appointed. by John himself to be bishop at Smyrna. Um he writes a letter to the Philippian. church and he he mentions the. resurrection five times in that letter. and he said talking about Paul and the. other apostles. He said, "For they did. not love the present age, but they but. him who died for them and was raised by. God on the third day." So he's.

confirming the teachings of these. eyewitnesses that they encountered the. risen Christ. That's nine very early. eyewitnessbased account or accounts of. the corroboration of the eyewitnesses, the disciples who encountered personally. the risen Jesus. That is an avalanche of. historical data. Can you tell he's a. lawyer? I'm not a lawyer. I just have a. law degree. Well, no, but but here but. here's the significance is what Lee's. saying and and he was he was the legal.

editor for the Chicago Tribune. So, not. a slouch, but also Simon Greenleaf, who. was was a lawyer who wrote uh the. treaties of legal evidence, right? He's. the guy who made Harvard Law School what. it is today, the second best law school, cuz I went to Yale. So, well, there you. have it. I went to the University of. Texas. Good basketball team. Okay. So, so Simon Greenleaf was always.

making fun of Christians and. Christianity in his in his legal classes. until some of his students came up and. challenged him to take his treaties, his. works on on the on legal evidence, how. to evaluate legal evidence, and put it. against all the documents and evidence. that Lee just said, he came to faith. just like Lee. I remember when he looked. at the evidence. That's right. Same with. CS Lewis. Yeah. when I was an atheist, I. went and I'm doing this investigation. into the resurrection. I remember going. to the library and of course they didn't.

have Simon Green Leaf's book which was. written in the in the um you know 1800s. Um, and so I put an inner library loan. and it took about six months and six. months later they give me this copy from. the 1800s of this book by Simon. Greenleaf, this great light legal. scholar who reports on the resurrection. and so forth. And it's it was held. together by rubber bands. But back then. we didn't have the internet. But you. know that's another great example is um. Sir Lionel Luck who is the greatest. defense attorney in the world according.

to the Guinness Book of World Records. more convictions of murder trial. 245. convictions uh in a row that he well he. won acquitts 245 times in a row either. before the jury or on appeal. Kned twice. by Queen Elizabeth uh became a member of. the Supreme Court of his country and he. was a doubter about the resurrection. Same thing he was challenged to. investigate it. He did and I'll recite. to you one sentence he wrote that. summarized his conclusion. He said, "I. say unequivocally that the evidence for. the resurrection of Jesus Christ is so.

overwhelming that it compels acceptance. by proof, which leaves absolutely no. room for doubt." This from the greatest. defense attorney who ever lived. And. here's the funny thing. I told that. story at Saddleback Church in Southern. California where Leslie and I had moved. in the year 2000 to be a pastor there. And um a woman came up to me afterwards. and she said, "Hey, I'm your new. neighbor. You're moving into my. neighborhood. We haven't met yet." I. said, "Oh, great to meet you." said, "Yeah." Said, "I'm Serena Luck's. sister." No way. What's his sister? And.

she not only confirmed the story, she. showed me his private documents that he. had done his research on. Oh, how's here's the point, and this is this. is what got me into this. This is why I. left my career in engineering. I was. like, there's so much evidence. Why has. no one told me this? Yeah. Mhm. And we. haven't even gone into all the. near-death experience stuff that also. connects to all the historical and it's. it's overwhelming. People don't people.

don't take the time. I remember sharing. with with um Hugh Hefner in the Playboy. Mansion. Really? Yeah. I u Wait a. second. Yeah. Well, I was We're going to. hear this one. Well, I I I was um I was. had a TV show at the time and we're. interviewing about his faith. So, u he. said, "You want to tour?" I said, "No, I. don't want to tour. I just want to. interview you about your faith. So I. interviewed him, but he was a very. bright guy, very smart guy. And I. started to show him, he got fascinated. by uh my book, Case for Christ. I showed.

him the table of contests. He looked. this. He said, "Are you telling me. there's evidence that Jesus?" He said, "If the resurrection true is true, it. changes everything. Are you telling me. there's evidence for it?" I said, "Yes.". Had he ever checked it out? No. Did he. read my book? I don't know. Um, but. maybe so. God's always at work. So many. people know it's the lynch pin of the. faith, but they don't investigate. And. here's why all this is the so what of.

all this? So, I'll never forget when. when all of this evidence kind of. came, you know, formulated in my head. and I was like, it this is true. Yeah. Like God really did send Jesus. He. really did die for our sins. He really. does love me. And then it was like, and. here's here was the thought that came. into my head. Now, what are you going to. do with it? Yeah. And that was a scary. thought to me. Yeah. Because it wasn't.

it's not the head knowledge. Like we can. we can believe in God. We can believe. Jesus died for our. sins. intellectually, but that's not what God. wants, right? What God wants is our. hearts. Like he created us and he loves. us and what he wants is that we would. love him back. And what do we have to. give the one who gave us everything? Nothing. Right. But he actually gave us. a free will so we would have something.

to give him. Yeah. And what we can give. him is our very lives. Yeah. Like I'm. going to trust you. I I'm going to. follow you. And I'll never forget, you. know, that was that was like a it was. like, "Oh, wow." And that was scary. And. that was scary because I already knew. what I wanted my life to be about, right? I've got a plan for my life and. you're not going to screw it up. Right? For me, it was Lesie pointed out the. verse John 1:12. But as many as received.

him, to them he gave the right to become. children of God, even to those who. believe in his name. So that forms an. equation of what it means to become a. child of God. believe as you said. intellectual I agree with that I believe. it plus receive. heart that's the heart that's where you. receive this free gift of forgiveness. and eternal life and a prayer of. repentance and faith and you become then. a child of God yeah and the point of the. whole thing is not just get your ticket. stamped okay you go to heaven one day.

the point of it is that we were created. for relationship with our creator and we. don't become come what we were intended. to be without that. Yeah. And what he wants is that that we would. walk through life in a relationship, like we were talking about before, learning how to listen to those. prompings. It's like any other. relationship, you know, to to to be in a. deep intimate relationship, you've got.

to know the person and you got to let. yourself be known. Yeah. And then you. have to trust. You have to entrust more. vulnerable things about yourself to that. person and you have to trust them. more and then it takes time and over. time that relationship grows and that's. exactly the same with the Lord and. that's what it's all about is that we. would walk with God moment by moment. throughout our days and he would then. naturally grow in us what what he calls.

the fruits of his spirit. love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, goodness, self-control, goodness. That's what it says in. Galatians 5. That's what his spirit does. in us is we all we have to do is just. Jesus said like like a branch stays. connected to a tree and the nutrients. flow and fruit grows naturally. He says. that's all you have to do. Just stay. connected to me. It's what he said to. Santosh. M the wages of sinner's.

death. I don't want your religious, you. know, once a week thing. I want to see. how honest you'll be with me. I want to. see your relationship with. me. Who who did who did he appear to. first? Did he appear first? That's a. great question. It is. It's a very. interesting question because in first. century Jewish and Roman culture, the. testimony of women was not considered. reliable. Wouldn't even allow it in a.

court of law, right? They wouldn't allow. to be testified. And yet, the first. people to encounter the risen Christ was. Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Joanna at. the tomb. And Joanna, another follower. of Jesus. So there were disciples or. beyond the 12. There were many disciples. and some of them were women who it says. even even provided for them. So Joanna. was one of them. She was uh in the royal.

household right of I think Luke actually. interviewed her the indication. So so it. is a fascinating thing because it was. almost like God was like putting it on. the guys. Well, and part of it too is. that's one reason we know we can trust. the story because if you're going to. make up a story and try to convince. people in the first century, you would. never say women discover the tomb empty. And the disciples, remember, are writing. this. That's right. They would never. say, "Yeah, we were wrong. They were. right." Right. Because because the.

disciple, they were scared to death. because Jesus, their leader, just got. crucified and guess what? You're next. Mhm. They're hiding out. They're. literally hiding out and the women come. back from the tomb. He's risen. He's. risen. This is what he said. He's risen. And they're like, "You're crazy. No, he. isn't." And then in closed doors, locked, Jesus appears to them. Except. Thomas isn't there. So, they went to the.

tomb and it was open. Yes. And then they. said he was risen and then he appeared. to them. Right. Yep. Yep. Yep. And so, what did he say? to well to Mary. So Mary Magdalene who. remember was um. delivered she was uh a very immoral. woman from what we know and and. demon-possessed and then she became he. delivered her. He set her free and uh.

she became one of his followers and she. f she she goes into she sees the tomb is. empty and then she thinks someone stolen. the. body and then she sees someone outside. and she thinks it's the gardener and. she's weeping and she runs out and she. says where have you put my lord you know. what have you done with him um correct. me if I'm getting this wrong and then uh. and then she realizes. He says, "Mary." And she hears this.

voice and she realizes it's him. And she. falls at his feet. And the gardener, the. gardener was Jesus. Wasn't the gardener. Yeah. falls at his feet and grabs his. feet and is crying, "Lord," and and he. says, "Don't don't hold on to me, for. I've not yet gone to my father in. heaven, but go and tell your brothers, I. have risen just as I said and basically. meet me in in Galilee," which is kind of. a funny thing cuz he couldn't even wait.

Yeah. Right. He didn't wait for them to. meet him in Galilee. That's right. He. showed up in the room. You know the. other thing when I was an atheist I. think he was having fun I really. seriously because then think about the. the two disciples on the Emmas road. right he kind of he kind of played with. that so there are these two guys not not. the 12 but they're also two uh disciples. on the Emmas road they're going this is. a town outside of Jerusalem called Emmas. they're walking and they're and they're. talking and this guy comes up next to.

him and goes what are you guys talking. about and he and they say you know. haven't haven't you heard, you know, Jesus who we thought was going to be the. Messiah and this happened and and he's. and he's like, um, no. He says, are you. the only one in Jerusalem who doesn't. know this? And they keep telling him all. the things that Jesus taught him and did. and all this. Well, so they don't. recognize him until they they they. invite him. He's a stranger walking with.

them on the road and they invite him to. eat. He sits down at the table with him. He takes the bread and breaks it and. they probably see the wounds and then. they they realize who he is. They they. know this is the risen. Jesus and and so they and then he's. gone. So and and interestingly I think. well I won't even go there. It's the. whole risen body the resurrected body. but it is go there. What is it?

Well, so. um when we die, you know, um we leave our bodies, but we still. have a body. We have a spiritual body. Our soul still has a spiritual body. Paul talks about this in 1 Corinthians. 15. So he says our bodies are buried a. natural body. They're raised a spiritual. body. They're buried in weakness, but. they're raised, and the Greek word is in. dunam, which is the word we get from.

which we get dynamite. They're raised in. power. And that's what near-death. experiencers say is they they leave. their body. They still are themselves in. the spiritual body with new powers of. sight, like we talked about, like. telescopic, of communication, of. movement, not five senses, more like 50. senses. Howard Storm said, "I felt like. Superman.". M. and but but here's the thing is.

that but we in our spiritual bodies. cannot communicate with people on earth. We can't. And that's that's what they. realize. They're they're trying to get. the attention of the people doing the. resuscitation and they. can't. Um so this is version 1.0 this. physical body. I think version 2.0 0 is. when we die, our soul leaves, but we're. in a spiritual body. But version 3.0 is.

coming. Jesus, it says, is it in 1. Corinthians 15, is the first fruits of. the. resurrection. So, right now, heaven and. earth are. separated. That that they are they are. separate. But there's a day coming. It. says in in Revelation 20 when God is. going to make a new heaven, a new earth, and the the two are going to be one. They're going to be joined again. And.

our bodies, our physical bodies will be. resurrected and joined to our spiritual. bodies. So, now think about this. So, and it says Jesus is the first fruits of. the resurrection. Yeah. So, he's he he. went first. So, he's what we will be. So, he. could both be seen. He's he's seen by. these near-death experiencers. Sometimes. as his physical human self, but. sometimes as the glorified resurrected.

Jesus, you know, this brilliant God of. light. Well, guess what? On the mount. transfiguration, Peter, James, and John. through Jesus disciples said he was. transfigured before him. They saw his. glory and his face shone like the. sun. Jesus said, "I am the light of the. world. Whoever follows me will never. walk in darkness but have the light of. life. So, so this is who he is. But his. re his body near-death experiences are. not resurrected. They're resuscitated.

Right? Jesus body died. permanently. But his body was. resurrected. It was reconstituted and. rejoined to his spiritual body so that. he then can both interact in heaven. But. he shows up to the to the disciples. after the. resurrection in this room and Thomas, you know, who was called doubting. Thomas. He wasn't there the first time.

And the disciples, you know, Mary and. Joanna said, "Yeah, we saw him." the the. other disciples. Yeah, he he showed up. And he's like, I don't believe it. I'm. not going to believe it. In fact, I. won't believe it unless I see the holes. in his hands and his side and I put my. hand in it. He's like, I'm, you know, I'm not going to believe it. Well, then. Jesus shows up when he's there and Jesus. says to him, "Look, it's me. I'm not a. ghost. Touch me." You know, uh, give me,

you have a piece of fish. Give him a. piece of fish. He eats it. So he is able. to interact in our in our world. Unlike. those who are dead, near-death. experiencers experience, Jesus has this. version three resurrected body. That was a rabbit hole. So how does he. how does he appear? How does he appear. with his body? I mean the gardener, he. was there. He was just there. How does.

he appear to these to the other people? You mean in the resurrection. appearances? Yeah, I I think Well, so to the guys on the. Emmas road, they didn't recognize him. until he wanted to be recognized. So. obviously he can somewhat change. appearance. And. like to Santosh, this Hindu guy I was. telling you about, he. appeared huge, but just like John. described in Revelation 1. John sees.

Jesus and he knows he's Jesus. Jesus. says, "I'm I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end. I. died and I died, but I've come back to. life, you know, forever." How did he say. it? It was like basically that. Revelation one. Yeah. And John said his. eyes were like lightning. He was like. full of light. His feet were like. glowing bronze metal on fire. Um that's.

exactly what Santosh, this Hindu guy. said. But that's also interestingly I. interviewed a woman in. Thrron who is giving me her story in. Persian in. Farsy. She dies of a of a heart attack. She's Muslim. She dies of a heart. attack. And she thought that, you know, the Shi belief is that uh the the. prophet Ali is going to come right after. death and judge you. Mhm. And um that's.

not what she said happened. She said. instead, this giant man in this glowing. regal robe with a beard, but but his. face, I couldn't make out his face. because of the the light of it, comes. and says to her, "I am he who is.". And boom, she's back in her body. Wow. But with a peace and a joy she had never. felt before. And she's like, "Who was. it?" She knew this is this is God. He's. divine. But who was that?

And and you know, of course, this is. exactly what God said to Moses on Mount. Si. I am who I am. I am the. self-existent one. It's what Jesus, we. said, quoted before Abraham was born. I. am quoting the exact word. So. yeah, I mean there's triangulation all. around the globe even today. Did he did. he ever appear out of thin. air with well when he appeared in the.

resurrection um with Thomas? So he could. go through walls. He could also he. floated up into the clouds before their. very sight. It says in Acts one uh. somewhere in there which again is what. near-death experiencers say too. Mhm. You know that that we have new abilities. and new powers. So there's a lot left to. come. Yeah. We're talking about the. women discovering the tomb empty. And. that's that's become a point of.

contention among some skeptics. Uh. because if you look at the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke say there were. multiple women going to the tomb, but. John only mentions Mary Magdalene, right? and they say, "Oh, there's a. discrepancy that it can't both be true. That's false." But Dr. Michael Lakona, who's a historian, uh, recently. published an analysis of the gospels. based on how ancient biographers would. write in that era. So, Plutarch and. others who were historians of that day,

the literary techniques they would use. because the gospels are considered. ancient biographies and you would think. they'd use the same literary techniques. in writing the gospels. Well, one. literary technique is called. spotlighting. Um, and what I mean by. that is if I were to text my wife right. now and say, "Hey, I'm sitting here with. Shawn Ryan. Um, that would be true, but. I didn't mention there's other people in. the room. I'm spotlighting you because I. want to highlight you." Spotlighting. important. Yeah. Exactly. So, it's not. false to say I'm with John Ryan, but I'm.

just spotlighting you. And if you look. at what John says with Mary Magdalene, Yes. He's the only one that uh he. mentions going to the tomb. But then she. says u um they have taken my savior and. um we don't know where they've taken. them. Well, who's the we? It's the. others who were there, but he's not. highlighting them. He's highlighting. her. But she refers to the we that you. know we we don't know where they've. taken them. So that reconcile that issue.

and there's there's virtually every. so-called contradiction in the gospels. it disappears when you begin reading. them in the same way you would read. Plutarch or any other ancient historian. using the same literary techniques that. they use in that day and they use today. use that same technique today. Yeah. Plus, you know, people the word on the. street that too many people believe cuz. again, do we really seek to understand, right, is that, you know, oh, well, um,

they've been changed over the years. The. gospels, the the the New Testament's. been changed so much and transmission, which that's not true. And and textual. criticism has proven that's not true. We. have more sources for the validity of. the New Testament. by far 24,000. uh manuscripts. The second best in. history is Homer's Iliad with 643. So. just as a comparison. Wow. They've.

actually found a few more recently, but. still it's it's a pittance compared. So, but but even the fact that over the. centuries they didn't change they didn't. try to reconcile these discrepancies. like Lee's talking about the. discrepancies being one eyewitness. writing um like like Mark is writing for. Peter uh you know or. Matthew spotlights Mary was at the tomb. but then others are saying Mary and and. and uh and Joanne others if If they were.

just making it up, they would have tried. to reconcile it. That's right. But they. didn't. And somebody did it in the year. 175 AD. It was a Tata. He developed. what's called the dietesseron. He went. through the four gospels and blended. them. Took out all the took out all just. blended them together. You know what? Nobody reads that. Nobody cares that the. first century folks didn't see this this. as being an issue. They didn't see a. discrepancy because they were reading it. as they would read any other ancient. writing.

But the the significance back to your. question, but the significance of the. resurrection, you know, it it says. something about the character in the. heart of God. Yeah. So again, this is. not this is something that God has been. doing throughout human history is that. we Yes. We are born in the knowledge of. both good and evil. All of us fall at. some point. All of us stray away. we go. our own way rather than God's way. And.

that's the that's the problem of the. world. That's the thing we hate about. the. world. But from the very beginning, so. all the way back in in Genesis 12, God. says to Abraham and Sarah, I'm going to. raise up a nation out of you. And there. was the Jewish nation, also the Arab. nation also came from Abraham and. Sarah. I'm going to bless you to be a. blessing to all nations. Okay, so we're. talking 4,000 years ago, God intervenes.

in human history to say, "I'm going to. do something to bless all. nations." And what was he doing? Well, he was creating this nation with all. their peculiar laws and idiosyncrasies. to protect what he was doing, which I I. believe is revealing through the. prophets his will, his words, his. history. And we have that today. It's. it's unbelievable how. um I mean there's so many reasons to.

believe God actually inspired this. Yeah. He he was doing something. throughout history. I've given you some. of them just in the in the prophecies. But also Jesus said that you know of of. of much. He said don't think I've come. to abolish the law and the prophets. which is the sum of the whole Old. Testament. And he said, "No, I've come. to fulfill it, and not a single word, not a jot or tit, which is like a dot of. the eye or across the tea, will be done. away with until all of it's. fulfilled." So God was doing something.

from the beginning of human history for. all nations. And Jesus when he then comes in. fulfillment of all these prophecies. we've talked about after the. resurrection appears to the disciples. and he. says all these things that I've I've. been teaching you this was pointing. toward this fulfillment. He said he he. opened their minds to see how his all. the scriptures of old were pointing. toward him and he said go and tell it to.

all the nations there's forgiveness in. my. name. So what he so what he was doing. was so that all people of all nations. Yeah. can turn back to God and be. forgiven and and yet God be just. Yeah. Because we don't like injustice by the. way. Yeah. So I think I was going to ask. this and I think this is what you're. saying is. is in the beginning.

the Jewish people were the chosen. people. Correct. Then there were the. then there were the Gentiles. Chosen is. very misunderstood. Chosen does not mean. I like you more than someone else. Cuz. that's the way I always took it. Right. No, it's No, you can be. chosen for a special mission. That's a. responsibility. They were the ones. chosen through whom the Messiah would. come into humankind and bless all. nations. It was a responsibility, not a. not a I like you better than others. So.

it was always for all nations. Yeah. And. in fact, John in the and they broke the. promise. Correct. Well, I mean, not all. of them. Some of them were faithful and. you know, many um. but they Yes, they they Yeah, I mean, we. all have. We've all fallen short. So what what. what because there wasn't that many. people back at the time of Abraham, correct? And he was he was like the the. one that started it. Correct. And so.

what separated the Jews from the. Gentiles? What eventually where did that. separation happen? Um that's a good question, isn't it? Is. that the time of Moses when they set up. the laws and the. I think well even even before that. Well, but. I didn't Yeah, that's a great question. Get back to us on that. Yeah.

I gotcha. You know what's it it strike me because. you and I were talking about Santa. Barbara earlier and how you love Santa. Barbara and I was thinking that uh you. know we've talked about these prophecies. that hundreds of years before Jesus uh. that point toward the crucifixion, the. resurrection, all this stuff. And um uh. you know when I was a skeptic I used to. think oh he just maneuvered his life to. you know like it says the Messiah will. ride a a donkey into Jerusalem and he. just got a donkey and rode in.

people knew all that but there was all. these things he couldn't have fulfilled. like where he was born and the time he. was born and soldiers gambling for his. garment all all these things he couldn't. have fulfilled or how about also the. nations coming together nations coming. together. exactly you talk about Santa Barbara. there's there was a professor there at. um Westmont College named Peter Stoner. and Peter Stoner said one day he said. you know what you can quantify by the.

likelihood, what are the odds that any. one of these prophecies could be. fulfilled? For instance, Micah the one. who did that. Yeah. Westmont. Yeah. In. West Micah says that the Messiah would. be born in Bethlehem. Well, how many. people have been born in Bethlehem so. you could figure out the odds? So, he. got a group of mathematics students. together and he said, "Let's run the. odds." Because they're like 61. prophecies just of the Messiah. Right? So, he took 48 of them and he said, "Let's run the numbers. What are the. Here's this question. What are the odds.

that any human being throughout history. could fulfill 48 of these prophecies? And they calculated it was one chance in. a trillion trillion trillion trillion. trillion trillion trillion trillion. trillion trillion trillion trillion. Wow. That's equal to the number of atoms. like it's like one atom in a trillion. trillion billion universes. I mean this. this is an astronomical it's not 12. trillion it's 12 trillions you know the.

odds of any human being zero fulfilling. these yeah are yeah I talked to one uh. physicist I said when you get the. numbers that big what are the odds it. can actually happen oh we we scientists. have a term for that I said what is it. he said ain't going to happen so it. ain't going to happen and yet it did and. it only happened in Jesus he's the only. one and as you pointed out earlier quite. accurately. that because of the time frame if Jesus. isn't the Messiah there will never be.

one can't be can't be because he had to. come before the temple was destroyed the. temple was destroyed in 7 years there is. no temple right there is a Muslim mosque. on the temple site. to this day. wow so it's him or nothing. so was. there so was it a new. responsibility cuz because what with. with the when they broke the. covenant, right, when he was crucified.

and then they broke salvation forever. before that there were there were. several covenants. So, yeah, but the. real covenant that that God was making. with through Jesus is an unconditional. one. Okay? Meaning, and so there's. there's there's so much fascinating. stuff, isn't there? It's just. unbelievable. So Abraham, go okay, back. 2,000. years. He God says to Abraham and Sarah, I'm going to give you a son and through.

him is going to be a blessing for all. the nations. So So again, this is the. lineage of the Messiah. So that's the. second way he's going to bless all the. nations through the Messiah. Okay. Well, then Abraham is told, "Go to the land. I'm going to show you and then you will. have the son." So they go they leave. where they were living travel to this. land which is now Palestine or Israel. It's no nowhere nothing town right and.

um and then they don't have a. kid for 10. years and she's getting old. She's. getting old. They're old. They're older. than Hey, come on man. Makes me feel better. So, so you know, they're not having a. kid. And Abraham, like all of us, is. like, "Maybe God needs a little help.". Yeah. Right. And Sarah's like, "Yeah, good idea. Here, sleep with my.

maidservant, Hagar, and give us a child. We'll surrogate one." And they do. And. Ishmael is born. And God's like, "You. didn't trust me." He said, "No, there. will be a child of the promise that will. come." So what is it 10 years after that. it was like I mean they're really old. you know it's impossible but it but it. happened Isaiah Isaac is born and. um the the wild thing is God then when.

Isaac's like uh 12 13 something like. that close to a teenager and and the. love of Abraham's life God says to him. Abraham I want you to take your son your. only son who you. love and I want you to to take him to a. mountain. I will show you and there I. want you to sacrifice. him. Now God also said through the.

law, don't do that. Do not sacrifice. your children like the other gods. demand. So this is pretty confusing, right? But Abraham follows him. Now. here's the thing. He gets two of his. servants. He gets Isaac and he's. struggling, but he goes and it says he. traveled three days journey to Mount. Mariah to the region of Mount. Mariah. And there he God says that's. that's the mountain. Go up there and.

sacrifice your son. So he's got two. servants. They could have carried the. wood on which he's going to make this. altar and sacrifice his son, right? And. Abraham says to his servants, "You stay. here. the boy and I will go offer a. sacrifice and we will. return. So here's here's the thing. Abraham believed even if God makes me go. through, he's going to bring him back to. life somehow because he's promised to. bless all nations through Isaac. And now.

he trusted. Now he believed. So he goes. up there. Um this is what Genesis. 22. Yeah. 22. It's latter part of of. Genesis. He goes up. He's struggling, but he's like, "Okay, God." And he. raises the knife to do it. And God says, "Stop, Abraham." Now, I I I see, you know, how. how much you trust me. And he he looks.

and he says there was a a lamb, a ram. caught in the. thicket. And he says,"Do not sacrifice. your son. I'll provide it." And so he he. sacrificed the lamb or the ram in his. place. And Abraham named that. place on this mount the Lord will. provide. Okay? Fast forward 2,000 years, and I won't.

get into all the how we know, but we. know that was the very place on which. Jesus would walk up the hill with his. own wood. And by the way, Isaac had to. carry the wood. Jesus would walk up with. the wood on which he would be sacrificed. and the Lord would provide. Wow. Powerful. Wow. It's all over. We do. know that. Oh, yeah. Yes. How do we know that? Okay. Oh, boy.

You tell. Well, so um so we know that. because uh Mount Mariah is is the the. place on which the temple was. built. And right outside the temple. walls is is Gol Goltha. on Mariah, a part of Mariah, Mount. Mariah. And we we we know all that.

because um so the angel of the Lord. appears to Gideon on the threshing floor. of a of Aruna. Mhm. And um that's that's. a whole other story in Joshua. No, Genesis. No, it's Joshua. Uh Judges. It's Judges. Yeah. And and then later. David, King David, so this is about a. th000 BC, builds the temple on the.

threshing floor of Haruna. So that's. right there on Mount Mariah. So this was not. Jerusalem. There was no city there when. Abraham took took Isaac. And yet it's. the very place where the temple and. Mariah, the the hill on which Jesus was. crucified, it he he he literally had him. prophetically act out what he didn't. make Abraham do. That's what people are. like, how could God be so cruel? He.

wasn't, right? He showed what he would. do. Yeah. Out of love for us. He provided. He provided. And not only. that, then then he comes along and uh. you know delivers the Jewish people from. Egyptian slavery in about 14,500. BC and they they you know they they get. out of. Egypt on what was called the.

Passover. So the Passover was when you. know God had basically warned Pharaoh. again and again and 10 times, let my. people go. He kept up in the Annie like, "Look, I'm serious. I'm God. You're not. God. Obey me. Let them go." And he. wouldn't wouldn't wouldn't. And the. final one was the firstborn will die. unless you take the blood of a lamb and. and paint your doorpost with it. And.

then he said, "And if that's the case, the the angel of death will pass over. your house." So all the Israelites. painted this blood of a lamb. Their door. was Passover. That was Passover. The. first. Passover. They celebrated. Passover and this sacrificial system. where every year they had to come to. Jerusalem and bring a lamb to be killed. in. theirstead for the for the sins of the.

previous year. And all that happened for. 1500 years. until that. Friday of. Passover, which which was good what we. call good Friday when Jesus was was. crucified as the lamb of God who would. finally take away the sins of the. world. So this is another. 1,500year prophetic fulfillment. And.

like I said, you know, the Jewish people. can't do that anymore because the. temple's gone. And and God specifically. said, you can only make sacrifices in. the temple. So this this this mountain, what's the name of the mountain? Mount. Mariah. This is this is the mountain in. Jerusalem today where the temple was. And how did a mosque get there? Well, so you know when. Muhammad well Muhammad uh came in the.

600s AD, so 600 years after. Jesus and um and interestingly Muhammad. um he Mecca was Medina. uh was it was in the caravan roots. So. he knew a lot of Jews and Christians and. and. actually you know had had read the. Bible. Um he calls the people of the.

book in the Quran. Um but in the in the. 600s uh you know. um I'm sorry I totally lost your. question. What was how did So there was. a temple there. That's where Jesus was. crucified. That's where Yeah. Was going. to So, so Islam Islam how did a mosque. wind up there? Yeah. So, the the. caliphates after. Muhammad, they they came and took places.

by. force. Um so, not free will. You became. a Muslim by force and and they took they. took. Jerusalem and um and and built a mosque. on the most holy site of Judaism. It's interesting too that when you when. you look at the Quran, which I read when. I was doing my investigation, you know, trying to check out all the possible. options and so forth, when you get to. Surah 4, verse 156, 157, um, uh, most.

people interpreted as saying Jesus was. not. crucified. Um, and therefore couldn't. have been resurrected. So, I thought. they thought he's cru he was crucified, but he wasn't. No, it wasn't. Yeah. that. God replaced him with some some thinkers. Judas that he replaced him with. Yeah. But the point is the Quran specifically. highlights things and says that are not. true that you must believe if you're a. Christian. So it says in surah 4 156 157.

that um Jesus didn't die on the cross. Well then he wouldn't have been. resurrected and h history. Yeah. Well. yeah. Secondly it says no one can bear. the sins of another. It also says God does not have a son. So. these are specific teachings the Quran. explicitly rejects that Christians must. accept. Now I have a good friend who's a. Muslim. He came over. We're grilling. steaks and and I said, "Let's set aside. religion. Let's just look at history.".

And I said, "Here's what I have from. first century sources about the. crucifixion of Jesus, the resurrection. of Jesus." and and uh I I went through. some of that and I said, "Now, what have. you got on your side?" Honestly, you've. got a guy 600 years later in a cave that. said it isn't. true. Which is the most credibility? And. his response was, I choose to believe. the. Quran. Okay, you that's his choice. But. I think the the evidence of history.

points powerfully toward the truth of. the Christian's claim um in a way that. it doesn't support those claims of the. of the Quran. And it's not it's not an us against. them. No, I mean, you know, like I said, God is for everyone. He wants everyone. to know what he's done, you know. And we. see this in the the in my book, I talk. about these supernatural dreams that. people are having and visions of Jesus. in closed countries, Islamic countries, where God says, "I love these people so.

much that um you can't close out my. gospel from them. I'm going to intervene. through supernatural dreams that are. happening to these people in in a. remarkable way." And they're. corroborated by outside events and so. forth. So, we know they're not just. being generated by a subconscious mind. um uh because he loves them and and you. know that's what I report on in Imagine. the God of heaven. These Muslims who. when they clinically die, that's who. they're meeting. Yeah. They're not.

meeting Allah. They're not even claiming. to meet Allah. That's No. And and and by the way, the. word Allah just means God. you know, so. um but they they come back knowing BB in. Thrron came back and found Jesus. Yeah. Swedik in Rwanda, you know, Muslim and. and again and again and again. So I say. that because I think many times, you.

know, and maybe people watching are. like, well, see, this is the problem. with you guys, right? you're right and. they're wrong and this is what causes. all the problems in the world. And. that's kind of this, you know, the. stereotype that's put up. And I think. that can be true. That can be true. But. that's not God. God is for everyone. He's for all of us. And you know, I. wasn't a believer and he wasn't a. believer before we looked at the.

evidence. That's where the evidence. points. And what God is leading us to is. really. not to war against one another, right? But to really see that no, we were all. created to be his children. He wants us. to love one another. He wants us to seek. peace with one another. And one day that. will happen, but it will only happen for. those who. do seek his ways and his will.

Wow. It's interesting stuff. Is there. any is there any physical evidence? You. know, some some sometimes I've seen. reports that maybe Jesus's face is. showing up on a cloth. Oh, the shroud of. Well, the shroud of Torrent is a very. fascinating topic. New research into. this. Yes. John Campbell, Dr. John. Campbell, there's some really powerful. new analysis of the shroud that. indicates it may very well be the burial.

cloth of Jesus. In fact, uh, se many. years ago, they did a a study of it and. they took a piece of it and they did. radiocarbon dating and they said, "Oh, it dates back to the Middle Ages, so. it's a forgery." Well, they had taken by. mistake a threads that were part of a. patch that was added in the middle. because it was burned. If you look at. it, you can see the burn marks. It was. it was in um a fire in in Trin, right, in the 1500s somewhere in there. Yeah.

And what happened is it got burned. Well, nuns took it and sewed patches of. cloth on to piece it back together. So, they accidentally dated that. Um, but. when now when they date it, there there. is and I'm not an expert on it, but Dr. Jeremiah Johnston and several others are. written are writing books and doing. lectures on it now. There's a lot of new. stuff coming out on the shroud that. really does suggest. By the way, uh, one. of the most powerful moments I've ever. had was there there was a guy uh, and I.

met him. I used to do a TV show and I. had him as a guest. He was the official. photographer of the Shroud of Tran. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um Jewish guy, Barry Schwarz, I think his name. And um. and he made several lifesize, actual. size copies of the photo of the shroud. And I I met a guy who has one. He has a. traveling exhibit that he has. It was. out east. And so he said, "Do you want. to see it?" And I said, "Yes." I'm.

telling you, when you come face to face. with this image and you contemplate the. possibility that is an image of my. Jesus, it's pretty overwhelming. It is. pretty overwhelming. Well, and and and so you know some of. the evidence now like when they studied. it, they still cannot figure out what. what put mechanism because because the. image is a um what do you what do you.

like an X-ray kind of thing? Well, it is. it's it's it's just on the the outside. of it, but it's but it's a. um what do you call it in a in a you. know film in the old film where you it. was it's a negative. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a negative on the cloth. Yeah. And. and so you you actually have to you know. flip it basically. Um make dark light. and light dark. But they do not know. what the mechanism is that burned the.

image on there. There's there's nothing. we have. No. No. And when they've done. now they've done even AI. threedimensional reconstruction because. the data in the cloth is. three-dimensional. It's. three-dimensional information. And it's, in other words, it somehow came off an. actual body to put three-dimensional. spatial information in the cloth. Mhm.

In some kind of way, we don't know. It's. not dye. It's not just radiation. It's. something else. And they don't know what. it is. So, here's a little funny thing, fascinating thing. Heidi, who I told you. about, the Jewish Yeah. girl who met. Jesus in her near-death experience. We're friends. She texted me when she. saw that three-dimensional image. That's. him. Oh, wow. Now, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. But that's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And I think they found So, she said his nose was longer than I.

thought and it was a little crooked. Interesting. Like it had been broken. Wow. That's fascinating. They didn't. they find some pollen in the shroud that. they could trace back to first century. Jerusalem. I think that's true. Anyway, it'd be great to have an expert on who. could really Dr. John Campbell did some. I saw some stuff he did. Yeah. Jeremiah. Johnston is another one. Yeah. Yeah. Any. other physical type stuff. like that? Yeah, like that. No, there's.

a lot of fraudulent stuff. Okay. A lot. of fraudulent. There's a piece of the. cross. You can buy it for $1,500. You. know, there is a lot of And that stuff. that bothers me. Yeah. Me, too. I mean, even tell you, even near-death. experiences, I was I was telling you, I'm I'm doing more research. I continue. to do research, and I I think, you know, some of these I'm hearing them. I think. it's AI. I think they're just saying to. AI, make up a near-death experience and. have Jesus say this or that or the. other, and we're just going to make a.

lot of money off people who believe. anything. And that's why I say if you. know if there aren't names attached and. it's not videotaped and it's. just I would I'm very skeptical of that. stuff, you know. Yeah. There's another. species of evidence um not physical. evidence but interesting uh about the. darkness that fell over the earth at the. time of the crucifixion. Bible says the. earth went dark for a period of time. And I'm thinking when I'm reading this. for the first time, no, specifically.

from the 6th to the 9th hour, right? So, yeah, exactly. It says those three hours. was dark, right? And I'm reading this. thinking crucified. Wouldn't somebody. have noticed this? Wouldn't somebody. else have written something about this. if the earth actually went dark during. that time period? Well, there was a guy. named Thallus who was a historian who. wrote a history of the Eastern. Mediterranean world about 50 AD, which. is shortly after. The Roman historian. Roman. That's right. and uh his works. have been lost. But in the year 221, a. guy named Julius Africanis uh had a copy.

of what he wrote and he was kind of. responding to it and said, "Oh yeah, thallus says that um the darkness was as. a result of an eclipse of the sun.". Which we knew it couldn't have been. because of the timing of the because it. was the Passover when he was crucified. and that's Passover is always a full. moon. That's how they know it's time for. Passover. It's not our calendar. It's a. full moon. So there you have it. You. can't have a eclipse of the sun during a. full moon, right? So there you have it. A a.

um rep a report by a Roman uh scholar. and historian that is uh corroborating a. claim in the scriptures that many people. would read and say that can't be true. And there were other extrabiblical. sources that also talked about actually. footnote case for Christ. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. It's fascinating. It really is. There's so much, you know, there is. there's so much. And I think I think. that's where, you know, if people are.

willing to really stay open-minded. enough to really seek with an open mind, with an open heart, they'll find. But. then again, that's not the point at the. end of the day. The point is, do you. want a relationship with your creator? Yeah. And that's where I think it comes. back to trust and realizing. And I'll. tell you, Sean, you know, like I I just. did a podcast. um called the ecstatic love of God. That's the name of the podcast. Yes. I. love that. The ecstatic love of God.

because of what they say. So I I. interview this guy. He was a lawyer in. Australia and um and and multiple other. people too trying to describe so when he. clinically dies and he's going to the. presence of this this light that he knew. was God the love and he says as as I'm. I'm I'm moving toward this and he says. in the light I see these arms. outstretched toward me like this like.

like come welcome and he. said as I'm as I'm moving there and he. had just come to faith in Jesus the week. before. So he's he's moving toward this and he. said and suddenly I I start to be filled. up. He said when I when I met the light. when I touched the light my soul touched. the light. He said it was like it was. like we became like one. We merged. And.

Jesus prayed for this. John 17, I pray. that they may be one with us, Father. Just as I am in you and you in me, may. they be in us that the world might. believe you sent me. And he said, he. said it, I read that later. I hadn't. read the Bible. He said it was like. that. And he said, I I was being filled. up filled up filled up with this love, but our word love doesn't even do. justice. He said it was ecstasy. It was.

he he I mean he used all these metaphors. I can't even describe but he said I felt. like I was going to explode and I. thought to myself I'm going to explode. and he said then it starts to subside. and he's like wait a second I didn't say. that I thought that did he hear my. thoughts and and and then he says no. don't stop give me all you hot and it. start and he hears a.

chuckle. He hears a chuckle and he. thought it was funny and then he starts. to fill him up again more and more and. more. And he said as he enters the slide. he said I knew who this was. He said I I. didn't have to ask. I knew have a name. tag. This was Jesus. He was the way, the truth, and the life. He said, "I I had not read that, but I. knew it. It was self-evident to me. He.

was the and I knew what that meant." And. he said, um, you know, there's just never been a. love. He said, "Take all the love you've. ever experienced from a spouse, from a. for a kid, from a grandparent, any love. you've experienced, put it all together. in one, and you have to multiply it by a. billion." Wow. And that's consistently. And so I I let you hear from all these. different people. And the point is that.

God is the love we've always wanted. He. is the relationship we were created for. And then all of our other relationships. are made complete. They don't go away. Sure. They get better. Mhm. Mhm. Yeah. Wow. Well, Lee, you just wrote a book on seeing the. supernatural. Yeah. John, lots 1500 plus. NDEs you've written about. Every once in a while bring on a psychic.

on this. podcast. I'm I get blasted by the. Christian community. Every time I talk. about mediums, every time I bring on a. psychic or a remote viewer, I think it's. a fascinating subject. I get destroyed. And so I'm I'm curious, you know, what. what are your guys' thoughts on that? I. actually have a chapter in my book on. ghosts and psychics. And um I talk about. the biblical um admonition to avoid.

mediums, to avoid psychics. And um um I. actually talk about ways in which. psychics um use different techniques of. cold readings, um warm readings, and hot. readings or different ways in which they. can make it appear that they know things. that they don't really know. um that. they're discerning things. supernaturally, which they're really. just trying to figure out by uh a more a. naturalistic means. Um and um uh you.

know, I do I believe some are demonic. Uh yeah, I believe some are in contact. with with demons. You know, for. instance, there was not not the. psychics, but the who their contact. Yeah. Who their contact is. Um there was. a case with uh Jim uh uh President. Carter and there was an airplane that. went down I think in Africa somewhere. twin engine plane and the government CIA. was trying to find it and um they. couldn't find it. They moved satellites. They're looking for it. They couldn't.

find this plane and Stansfield Turner. who was the CIA director came in and. said, "I've contacted this medium in. California." and she went into a trance. and she wrote down the longitude and. latitude and we moved the um uh. satellites and sure enough we found the. plane. Um so there are those cases. Uh. what do you do with that? Um, and I. think there's pro I mean my hypothesis. would be that there was a uh a demon who.

was very intent on convincing others. that she is psychic and a reliable. source of information for future tapping. into um uh and so he might have had. knowledge of where the plane was and. provided it that way. I'm not saying the. psychic herself was culpable. I'm just. saying I I given the Bible's admonition. against psychics, against divination, they call it, against um mediums. Um I. don't think God would honor that. What.

does what does it say about that? Uh in. Deuteronomy, um there's actually in my. book I quote it because a lot of them. have there's a lot of good things that. have happened for these kind of things. Well, on the way just this morning, I. mean, I was thinking about this subject. and I opened one of the social media. accounts and the first thing I saw was. this some type of CIA document that was. leaked to to find the Ark of the. Covenant. Yeah.

I don't know if you guys know anything. about that, but uh I didn't have time to. dive into it cuz we were getting ready. to interview, but I've interviewed a. number of these guys. Yeah. And um Well, here's the thing. I you know I think. sometimes and I don't really like. um when Christians just blast just take. out the machine gun and just tear it rip. it apart. I don't like it either. Yeah. Well, and look at you. You're the guy.

No. So, uh because because I have, you know, I've been on shows with with people like. this and many times they're very sincere. and they really are seeking. Yeah. And I. think many times maybe they're they're. seeking and closer to finding God than. others who are maybe, you know, they're. just playing a Christian game. Okay. So. So it's not like they're all bad. We're. not we're not saying that. But I think. there's a reality to the spiritual world.

and it's not all good. There is. deception. Mhm. And I think that's why. in um like you said in Deuteronomy, so. what they what what God was warning so. the nations around Israel were. worshiping these gods and many times, you know, and leading them to child. sacrifice and things like that like as a. this is this is what God wants. um and and trying to.

gain control, power, knowledge of the. future. Is this like Moolock and some of. these other I can't remember all the. names, but through mediums or through. through psychics and God warned them. that don't try to contact the dead. because in fact, you're probably. communicating with the demonic. Yeah. So, it's. it's and I'll tell you, you know, I I um. I interviewed a woman in Brazil who um.

and she was a she was a a a pastor with. her husband, but she lost her her. 16-year-old son in an accident and and. she was just devastated and just. couldn't get over it. Went into a. depression. um you know, just couldn't. grieve and let it go. And she ends up. getting. um she ends up having an overdose of. medications that she was taking, not. intentionally, but she did. And she dies.

and she has a near-death experience. And. in her. experience, she's there with Jesus. and and Jesus shows her again he. sometimes gives parables and metaphors. and he shows her a garden and says this. is the garden I've I've created you to. work in and then she sees across like a. a divide like a. chasm and there walking across there is. her.

son and Jesus said to her and and she. wants to go to him and he said it's not. your time yet I still have you on earth. for a purpose and it's it's your garden. He has accomplished his he came into my. gates with joy. and basically was saying you got to keep. going on your life. He's fine. Look, I'm. letting you see. But she comes back and. she still can't let it go. And and she.

still is like almost like idolizing her. son and wanting him to be back. And one. day she told me and and again she's. telling me in Portuguese. This is. through a translator, my my translator. there. You don't speak Portuguese? I. don't. I'm learning Spanish. It's close. Um she. said my son burst into the house and. flops down on the couch just like he did. every day after school.

And she was blown away. It's like this. is what she wanted. and and and she even. walks over and she starts to rub his. head just like she used to do. And the. angel that was with her in her. near-death experience. appears and says to her, you know, that's not your son. And she said, there. was this terrible tension in me because. I so wanted that to be true. I so wanted. it to be my son.

And she struggled and finally she. said, "I know." Wow. And as soon as she. said that, her. son is a a demonic creature, not her. son. And and then both are. gone. And I think that's a, you know, I. I think. unfortunately that's what we've got to. pay attention to. You know, I have many. near-death experience. um examples of uh Steve Kong who who was.

a Buddhist who this this Buddha figure. appears to him as he's he he did a a. death bowl. You know what that is? It's. like a smoking a bowl of marijuana but. laced with PCP and meth and crack, all. kinds of stuff. And um and about day. eight, nine, 10 of not sleeping after. doing this, this the same Buddha figure.

who used to used to appear to him in the. in the temple in Korea. uh appears to him and and starts to. convince him that uh it would be best if. he went ahead and took his life. And if. he does, he'll give him he he'll get. 50,000 years less of. hell. And for some reason, he decides. that's a great. idea. And and he slits himself with a.

with a butcher knife across his stomach. His mother sees it, calls the police. The police come. He also cuts his. throat. And he and. he dies. and he is descending. He knows. he's going to hell and he realizes this. nice this nice Buddha figure is not. Buddha at all. This old old man that he. thought was, you know, a Buddha figure.

was not at all. He was demonic. And he. realizes that on the other. side and he he actually ends up getting. rescued by Jesus. Wow. Who tells him, "No more drugs, no more Buddhism, and I. love you." Wow. and he's a pastor today. Wow. So, not everything that appears good is. always good. You remember Howard Storm. who had the near-death experience, the. atheist college professor? These really.

nice people in the hallway. He doesn't. even know he's dead. And and they're. dressed like the hospital staff, and. they're like, "Howard, come with us.". He's like, "I need surgery." And, "Oh, we know all about you. Come come with. us." They seem real nice. And like I. like to point out, if Howard's. near-death experience had ended right. there, he would have had a very. different interpretation, right? But he. followed them and they lead him into an. outer darkness just like Jesus talked. about where they just, you know, worst.

prison scene you can imagine until he. calls out to Jesus to save him. And he. does. Wow. And he leaves his tenure. professorship and becomes a Christian. pastor as well. In fact, do you know I. know Howard Kyle Paul Yen. There's. another Buddhist that Jesus. saved. Um, who's the other one I just. said? Uh, Kyle Fower. Five or six of.

them who had hellish near-death. experiences and cried out to God and. Jesus saved them. And they're all. Christian pastors or missionaries today. Wow, that's awesome. You can't make this stuff up. like how. do you explain that? I mean, it's an. interesting subject. I I've interviewed. a handful of them and uh one of them was. Angela Ford and she had done a lot of. work for the government and um found. some uh missing kids and stuff and I I. asked her in the interview. I said, "Have you ever remote viewed?" Oh, she's.

a fiction. Yeah. And she did not want to. answer that. She started rubbing her. teeth and like moving her head back and. forth. And why? I didn't want to dig any deeper. It it. it was uh I mean, she was really open. the whole interview. And then when I. asked her that, it just shut down. It's. like she switched. Well, and here's the. thing. I you know, again, I don't think. necessarily people know, right? And I. think that's part of the problem is that.

I don't think they're necessarily evil, wicked people. They many times have good. intentions and good motives. And again, the best deception is 80 90% true. Yeah. And so I think like like Lee was saying, I think sometimes you can have things. that are. helpful. Um but are they are they in fact helpful. for a reason to to get people to follow. after them, not after God? Yeah, it was.

interesting. I mean, she said, "Yes, I. have." And I said, "Do you want to talk. about it?" And she just started rubbing. her teeth and moving her eyes around and. wow, it was Well, look, here's the. thing. Scared the hell out of me to be. honest. I bet. Well, when when you know. like like Randy, the CEO I interviewed. when when he when the six embolisms. traveled up his leg and block pulmonary. embolism, his heart stops, body shuts.

down. He's rising up and he looks out. over the surface of the earth. But but. there there was something else going on. Again, you're moving into another. dimensionality, I believe. But he sees a. battle going on. And it's a battle. He believes it was a. battle for for his soul because he was. really struggling with God. His he'd. gone through a lot of stuff um and was. really struggling with God. Even though. he's a believer, he was struggling. But.

he sees this battle going on. And you. know Jesus talked about that. I mean he. said the ruler of this world is coming. This is before his. crucifixion. The ruler of this world. I. thought he was the king of kings, the. Messiah. What about God the father? You. know. Well, God has. given the demonic angelic host rule for. a time.

on a leash, but there's still And again, I think it's part of God's plan. This is. a very dimminionative experience. This. is like a. 1,000th of the goodness to come or the. horrors to come. Mhm. And it's a time of. living, of knowing good and evil and. choosing. Yeah. With the opportunity for. a second chance. Again, when when time. is not linear, there's no such thing as. a second chance. There's no second. It's. eternity. And so I think that's what I think.

that's what Easter was all about. It's. grace. It's God giving us chance after. chance after chance of forgiveness to to. get things right, to learn, and to grow, and to become more and more of what he. created us to be. Yeah. Lee, what were. you going to what were you going to say? Oh, I was just going to reference there. was a I interviewed um a scholar um on. this question of psychics and mediums. and so forth for my book and this is. what he said. Um uh the Bible condemns.

all forms of occultism. Leviticus 19:26. commands do not practice divination or. seek omens. Similarly, Leviticus 19:31. warns do not turn to medium. Sorry, I. don't have my reading glasses. Do not. turn to mediums or seek out spiritists. for you will be defiled by them. Uh the. Old Testament asserts that those who. associate with familiar spirits are. cursed by God. Furthermore, Exodus 30. 22:18 and Leviticus.

20:27 mandate that sorcerers and mediums. living at that time be put to death. Uh. Deuteronomy 18 10-12 is explicit. Let no. one be found among you who is a medium. or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is. detestable to the Lord. Revelation uh. 9:21 promises that all who practice. sorcery will face jud God's judgment. Uh. their destiny is not heaven but rather. the lake that burns with fire and.

sulfur. Take a look at Revelation 21:8. and. 22:15. So, uh I think you're right. And. I think there yeah there's some pretty. which I have friends who you know I'm. just I'm thinking through the the lens. of and I I so again if we didn't tell. you all this reason to believe that God. was actually. um inspiring the writing of the. scriptures to know his his will and.

understand. But I have a I have friends who both had. a near-death experience and now are. mediums. Is medium. Oh, yeah. Interesting. And you know, I I've said. to her the same the same thing. Yeah. But just hearing that fresh, I'm like, "Yeah, dang." You know, I know. Yeah. That doesn't sound good. No, it doesn't. sound good. Seriously, I mean, I think. it's But again, you know, Okay. Um, I.

think it's dangerous because of how. Satan may intervene in ways that people. are unconscious of and lead people to. conclusions that are not biblical. Yeah. I what I wanted to say is I would listen. I would hear that and some people may be. saying, "Oh, so you're saying they're. just cursed and damned and there's no. hope for them." No, that's the way I. take it. Exactly. And that's not that's. not what he's saying. There's. repentance, there's hope. There's for. everyone. Yeah. I mean, the thief on the. cross, it was last minute. All he said.

was, "Remember me." Yeah. I mean, he. didn't. So, so is um and and so this. doesn't mean keep practicing it, but is. that the unforgivable sin? No, it's not. David committed King David committed. adultery, murdered her husband, had her. husband killed to cover up his. sin, and and somehow he still was. forgiven. Yeah.

So, you know, God paid an enormous price. for our justice. And that's what we. don't realize. Yeah. So, my point. is Lee is not saying all psychics are. those who because here's here's that. that they're all going to hell. She's. not saying that. It's it's a matter. again of being right with God by turning. back to him and saying, "Okay, God, you. get to be God. I want to follow you. An. unrepentant sinner is in trouble. And.

someone who persists, someone who. persists despite admonition and despite. biblical teaching and persist to the end. and resist to the end, I wouldn't want. to be in their shoes. Um, I mean, you. know, I I lived a incredibly immoral. life before I became a Christian. God. has forgiven me of all of that. Me, too. and you and all of us who've come to. faith have uh have um uh been forgiven. of of things that um we you know I I. look at the grace of God and say I I.

can't even fathom uh how deep and how. wide and how strong it is. Um so anyone. who uh comes to him in repentance and. faith I believe is uh has eternal life. through Jesus Christ and him alone. Yeah. But he he gives us these things so. that so that we will learn and grow and. not be deceived and not be led astray. And so I think that's I think that's. what you know that's what the point of.

that is. Mhm. I mean it is interesting you know I mean. lots of similarities between it can be. confusing experiences in media. People. who have near-death experiences often. come back and find that there are. spirits wanting to channel through them. And the veil seems thinner when they. come back. And I've had some that I've interviewed. who knew like, I'm not letting that.

happen. I'm not going to be your your. channel. and others who have thought, "Oh, I guess that's why I had this and. that's what I'm supposed to do." And. they go down that road. That's why scripture, I think, is so. important to use of the guide. Yeah. You. know, it's that's our plum line and we. go to that and say, "What can I learn. from that that God told me through. scripture to protect me and and to. nurture my spirit and not to um uh.

defile me." Yeah. And and you know. um when we quote scripture and people. you know who who don't know it hear that. they're like it's a 2,000 year old book. that you know out of touch with today. But what we've been trying to show and. if you've gotten all of this is that no, God has been putting very tangible. evidence throughout history that he was. in fact doing this very.

intentionally. And that's what Jesus. said. He said, you know, God by his. spirit was speaking through the prophets. and I am the fulfillment of it. And so. that's why we both came to the. conclusion like, okay, that needs to be. the plum line by which we judge all the. rest. In other words, um I'm not going. to just go listen to whatever a. near-death experiencer says and believe. it. They they sometimes contradict. Yeah.

But the commonality of of what they say, they contradict in their. interpretations, you know, but the. commonality of what they're reporting is. what I'm showing. It aligns with what. God's been revealing throughout history. Makes. sense. Covered a lot of ground today. We. did. But I'm excited about Easter. Dog. on it. You know, it it it is awesome. when you think about Jesus and the. shroud kind of brings that to life. Whether or not we determine ultimately.

it is authentic or not, it just kind of. reminds us this is a person who died to. for me to pay the penalty I should have. died for and said, "No, no, no. I love. you so much. Yes, the penalty has to be. paid for because that's justice and God. is just, but I'm going to offer you. forgiveness. I'll take it upon myself.". It's just awesome. And then to to the. resurrection to say as I have conquered. death, so will you. So will you. We'll.

all who follow him. We'll all conquer. death. And that's just the start. And I. mean what you know what people like. Heidi I was telling you about what she. said is. like he's so enjoyable. She was a. 16-year-old. Yeah. And she said we had. more fun than I've ever had in my life. Now, you don't think of God or Jesus as. being described that. way, but that's that's what he is both. the most powerful,

majestic, only worthy of our worship, but also so personable, knows us so well. that he would come and live among us. And the disciples felt so close to him. Like I said, John, uh, his youngest. disciple, called himself the one Jesus. loved. Yeah. Cuz that's how he felt. Yeah. Like I was the only one. You know. what's fascinating? I've had four, in. fact, there were there were on my.

podcast, you can hear them talk about. it. four different near-death. experiencers who said, and Jim Woodford, the agnostic to the very end till his. head hit the steering wheel, said in. Jesus presence, he. said, you know, I I knew it couldn't be. true, but I felt like like I was his his. special child, like I was the only one. he loved. Yeah. And again and again and again they say. that like like his love for me was so.

unique that it was like he loved only me. of the billions and he said but then I. would Dean Braxton said but then I would. think about my wife and I realized oh he. loves her like that too and I think. about someone else it's like oh he loves. there it reminds me of a story of a. woman who's a hospice nurse she's. retired now and I have her story in my. book where she uh came into the room of. a guy was dying and um he was weeping. uncontrollably weeping he was a. brilliant guy his name was Frederick and. he was in his 70s but very highly.

educated person weeping uncontrollably. and she said what's wrong what's wrong. and he said Jesus was here I saw him he. came he he stood right here and and and. I felt the love and the grace and it was. so overwhelming I. just and she said if I saw him, would I. cry? And he said, "Oh, yes, you'd cry.". She said, "Why would I cry?" Because you. would feel the depth of his love and.

forgiveness, and it would just overwhelm. you. And here's a guy, a brilliant guy. who knew a lot about life, but he didn't. know the depth of God's love until he. had that pre-death vision right before. he died, where God met him in that. moment through Jesus Christ. And it just. reminds me of that moment when we. recognize Easter what it is and you go, "Oh my goodness, we ought to be weeping. in light of what he did for us." And. still to this day when I interview I.

mean the CEO, you know, he he was a. medical executive, fastest growing. pharmaceutical company, then started a. biotech firm. Um this commercial airline. pilot, Captain Dale Black. And when they. talk about looking into the eyes of. Jesus, they say I I could get lost Yeah. in his eyes forever because it was like. he he saw into me everything, every. good, every dark thing. Yeah. But loved. me, accepted me. I I He was my best.

friend and my father and everything. And. they can't hold it together. Yeah, every. time. That's overwhelming. I do I'll I'll ask him. So, well, tell. me about when you when you were with him. and you and and these are brilliant. guys. I mean, these are like very smart. people, double PhDs and stuff. You know,

they've been in the world, they've lived. in the world, and yet they say. what it felt like was so wonderful. It. overwhelms my emotions. When I think. about it, it just I'm there and it. overwhelms me. Wow. So, that's the point. of that's the point of Easter. That's. the point of the resurrection. And so, Jesus, we can know it's not just for. forgiveness of our sins. Yeah. It's to. realize that God entered into our very. suffering. And though we we still have.

to go through it, he's with us. He's. always with us. And all he like he told. Randy the CEO when he showed Randy when. he was still an. agnostic and he Randy said in his life. review he said you mean you were there. when I went through that and that and. even when I hated you and he was at. Northwestern and he tried to prove. disprove God and he said Jesus said I. was always there just waiting for you to. turn to me. Wow. Wow.

Well, that was awesome. Thank you guys. Thank you both. Pleasure. You're. welcome. It was fun. Yeah. Once again, it's an honor to have you guys back and. and. um I don't think this could have gone. any better. So, happy Easter. Yeah. Happy Easter. Happy Easter. All right. God bless. You, too. God bless you, Sean. Thanks, man. Thank you.

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