Jon Truett - Optimizing Human Performance | SRS #201

[Music]. John Truit, welcome to the show. Well, um, thank you for the invitation. Hey, you're welcome. You're welcome. We've. been want this to happen for a long. time. So, you'll be you'll be the second. SAS guy on the podcast and um I'm just. infatuated with your guys' life stories. and career and um and uh looking forward. to a really good discussion here. So. we'll do a life story on you. Starting a.

childhood, go through your military. career all 20. just under 23 years. 23 years. 19. deployments. That's right. Yeah. Wow. Wow. So we got a lot to cover and I want. to get into a little bit of the history. of um what you guys were doing in. Ireland back in the day. So, cuz um you. know, primarily it's American focused. and uh you know, we're not we're not as. in tune with everything that's happened.

over there as as we probably should be. So, I'd love to get a little history. lesson on that, but everybody starts off. with an introduction. John Truit, a man forged in the crucible. of elite military service with 23 years. in the British Army, including 19. operational tours across Iraq and. beyond. A parachute regiment veteran who. volunteered for the grueling SAS. selection in 2002, a survivor of. profound personal loss, navigating the.

deaths of your mother in 2004 and father. in 2005 while serving in highstakes. operations. A pioneer in human. performance, dedicated to unlocking the. potential, the potential of. physiology through innovative technology. and expert knowledge. An advocate for. rehabilitation, working on initiatives. like ampute football tournaments to help. conflict survivors rebuild stable, meaningful lives. Engaged to be married.

to her fiance Ellie. When are you guys. getting married? Later on this year. Congratulations, man. Commit. Met her at. breakfast today. Amazing woman. Amazing. woman. And so we have a Patreon account. It's a subscription account. And uh. they've been with me since the beginning. when I was doing this in my attic. It. turned it into one hell of a community. And so one of the things I do is I offer. them the opportunity to ask each and.

every guest a question. This is from. Steven Casey. What do you see as the boundary between. human endeavor and neurocontrolled. robotics on the battlefield? And if. there's no real boundary, does that mean. we substitute robots for human. wholesale? If we do, what does that mean. as to the ultimate human cost of war, which has historically been huge metric, been a huge metric on warfare?

Great question. That's Yeah. And I wish. there was only one line um because in. the middle there's the partnership of. robots and human beings in one entity. like exoskeletons. So starting off with human beings you. know and you look at the ongoing. conflicts right now they're done human. to human assisted by drone technologies. not yet robotics to you know there are. elements of it and if you go to the. other end you know having robots just. doing conflict I think to me I can't.

envision what that looks like I think. it's a leap too far you know uh the. conflict will become increasing ly. machine teaming and increasingly I can't. see the sense of humans standing in. defending positions where you can put. automated machines to do it. Um and. technology certainly allows you to do. that in a responsible manner. So I think.

we can be a lot more judicious about how. we put lives at risk. But I just cannot. see a future where you will not need the. highest trained soldiers. Uh I think. soldiers are becoming more and more. special and more and more enabled. One. of the key points I've been looking at. more most recently is exoskeletons. Um. it's all about the concept of human. augmentation. And my worry with. exoskeletons is you start putting.

robotics around humans to assist them in. what they do, you start disadvantaging. the human being themselves. And because. we have a propensity to push for greater. and greater things. So if for instance. certain type of exoskeleton is really. really powerful and it can be used a. lot, it'll be overused. And if you know. take the concept of an arman suit. If. you put a human being in an arman suit. and it's not chiming you to do what you. are trained to do your muscles you you.

you you absolutely depend upon your own. physiology to drive your health and an. over reliance on something in the middle. like an exoskeleton. Although it could. mean a soldier can march with 130 kg. pack over 100 miles. You know, I have a. problem with that because you will. disadvantage the human being in making. those sorts of choices. So, choose where. you put robotics in judiciously and save. life by doing it, but don't compensate. human biology. The art is to shift the.

human biological limit further to the. right. Yeah. You know, it's man, warfare. is just changing so fast right now. And. there's all these different companies. that I've been diving into like Andural. Uh we got this guy coming on. that uh was a former. SEAL, Dino MVus, and he's doing. autonomous surface warfare vehicles. And. man, it's just we have unmanned subs, we. have unmanned planes, we have unmanned.

surface warfare vessels. I. mean, it's going to look it already does. look completely different than when I. was in. And I don't know, you know, first I. was pretty apprehensive, but that was. probably my ego thinking no robot could. ever do the [ __ ] job that I did. But. I mean, these. things now I kind of changed my tune and. I mean it does, you know, it does.

preserve our lives and you know, having. kids and you have kids, too. I. mean, I would rather a robot go and and. and do the dirty work than have my kids. out there. Absolutely. When you're. diffusing a 5-tonon sea mine. Yeah. I much rather, you know, I'm. absolute supporter and advocate of. unmanned systems that can look at. threats as well as illegal maritime. shipping uh and fishing. You know, this.

is a real age of dual purpose technology. and these unmanned systems are. incredibly advantageous for us. You. know, we should look to preserve life. We shouldn't try to remove the. challenges and hardship from human. endeavor. you know, and maybe it's not. maybe not all conflict and you know, I. don't I can't sort of qualify this. statement by saying metrically this. happens, but I can't see that all. conflict is going to be able to be.

handed over to robotic systems. Yeah. And I think somewhere in the line human. judgment has to come in. Yeah. I I think. uh I think that's kind of the so far. with everybody I've talked to that's the. premise is that is the final decisions. will be made by humans but especially. with some of these things like uh scale. AI and Palunteer I mean it's the. interesting thing is it's it's taking. the intel and all the things that go.

into the decision-m process and instead. of actually having humans do it where it. would take days sometimes weeks maybe. even months. I mean, it's literally. displayed all the different outcomes and. and uh the probability of what could. happen and your percentage of winning. I. mean, it's all handed to you through AI. within hours or less. Yeah. And um so. interesting subject. Great question. I'. just like to add I mean I was in a park.

watching a child play with a drone one. of those small drones that te you know. and uh it can quickly you know the. future is it's already there now that. drone can recognize a facial. feature capture it lock it on and tether. it and you know I was sort of joking in. my own head going I wonder if I can out. outrun that I'm going to go back and try. and have a race with it see if I can you. know this technology is is brilliant if. you it's already there and it's it's on. on the street, you know, it's like a a.

drone that can tether to you and will. follow you around. whatever. It's there and you can buy it. for very small amounts of money off the. shelf. I won't say the drone it was in. that case. Have you um I mean some of. the ways they're integrating technology. is just I mean have you heard about the. helmets that that uh Palmer Ly's. designed with? Not I haven't but Oh man. So he he's making it's it's it's like an.

interface heads up display and it will. replace all not just special operations. which I love cuz special operations. always gets the cream of the crop but I. think what's really cool is that all. military ground units will get this. eventually but basic it almost looks. like uh like a pilot helmet you know. with the visor. and he's integrated I believe. I could be wrong, but it's um it's like. the next generation of night vision,

which integrates color and thermal and. all these things. And not only that, it. will it will there'll be a heads up. display of where all your guys are at. If you're if you're on the ground, tell. you highlight them in blue or green or. whatever color. It'll highlight bad guys. in red. You'll actually be able to see. through walls. So, if you have somebody. shooting at you from a lip, when they. drop back down, you can see exactly. where they're at. Wait for them to pop. back up.

And it'll do. I mean, it's it's just. insane like the technology. It'll it'll. even. identify friendly and foe aircraft and. by the way that they're maneuvering tell. you what it's about to do. I mean, it's. it's a whole another it's a whole. another game out there right now. So, yeah. And it's really interesting. because you can fuse all of that. incredible technology and I'm all for. it, you know, but we got to remember. it's all going back into a human being. Mhm. You know, and it, you know, and.

even in 10 years ago, you can get. cognitive overload with all of this, right? And um but I I think all of that. technology is good. We just have to be. very judicious about how you apply it. Yeah. and what that human being in it in. in it can can reasonably be expected to. apply it for um because you can get. easily get overloaded with everything in. our a change and you've got multiple. nets going on all good stuff your brain. learns how to do it we call it 4D. thinking absolutely brilliant I mean the.

power of what's inside there is. incredibly powerful as well you can. build pictures and you can always. imagine where that aircraft is um to. have it in a hood is absolutely. brilliant. I remember I think you you. have to learn to use it. Remember when. you're putting that on that's uh. remapping neuronal pathways in your. brain. So you're actually pushing the. human biological limit along in my eyes. as well. You know your brain will learn. very very quickly to adapt to what that.

extra coding what extra signals are you. know and it's it's incredibly powerful. and adaptive. So human beings can take. this you know and uh and definitely they. can adapt to it. Um, so I I'm all for. technology. I'd love to, you know, blue. force tracking is absolutely uh. critical. You know, it's one of the the. hardest things you have to do. Be aware. of each other are. But I also remember. the criticality of your own instincts.

and your own senses and not having an. over reliance on technology and we used. to wear a lot less protection because. actually we trusted ourselves. You know, the power of, you know, sense and. instinct is incredibly important to. soldiers. Human intuition. Yeah, absolutely. Human intuition, instinct, six sense, gut instinct, whatever you. want to call it, it's there and it's. very, very real. And uh we need to. ensure we keep that at the forefront of. the people that's doing it. Empower with. technology. I think Palm Lucky is.

Andreal, isn't it, Andreel? Yes. I mean, it's super super exciting where they're. going with some of their capabilities. and technologies and I think it's a good. time to do it. You know, I think we're. looking at really really interesting. turn uh in in um in in our present day. Yeah. You know, we do need those. autonomous systems skirting around uh in. in you know, in the waters. Mhm. Um you. know, resources can be finite.

One other thing before we get started. Everybody gets a gift. Thank you. Vigilance League gummy bears legal in. all 50 states. I don't know if they're. legal in UK or not, but you'll have to. find that out when you get home. I'll do. some research. Um, I've got some gifts for you. downstairs as well. I haven't got them. with me. Oh, perfect. I possibly run out. and get them and bring them back up. Sure. Perfect.

Mini off. What is this? It's just some. uh very. um selling for the. bookshelves. Uh thank you. Yes. And then. I've got you some quintessentially. British marmalade from a shop called. Fornham Mason. Perfect. So I don't know. don't know whether marmalade's the same, but it's like a a jam and it's called. the Monach. Thank you. Thank you.

Oh, that's awesome. Thank you. Thank. you. All right, John, you ready? Yes. Where'd you grow up? So, um I grew up in southeast of. England. Um and. uh uh really I was uh born uh to. parents. My dad was from a a family in. London uh generations back and they had. a small business. It was actually a.

joinery company and so they came from an. area called Forton Heath in London. It. used to be lovely. It's pretty rough. now. I've spent years on this show. pulling back the curtain and trying to. reveal what's really happening in this. country. And the truth is there's a. double standard here in America. You see. time and time again people defending. themselves, defending their family, and. then the judicial system goes after. them. It's a double standard. And if you.

don't believe me, check out episode. number three with Don Bradley. That is a. perfect example of what I'm talking. about. Because it's not just about what. you did, believe it or not, it's how the. legal system interprets it. And that's. why I'm a USCCCA member. The USCCA has. over. 860,000 members because they know the. reality is after you stop the threat, the real fight begins. Your membership. gives you the education, elite training,

and self-defense liability insurance you. need for the second fight, the legal. one. Plus, every member also gets access. to a 24/7 critical response team and. attorney network in the event of a. self-defense incident. Violent crime. happens too often in America. This isn't. about living in fear. This is about. being prepared when things go sideways. You don't get to schedule danger. And. with the world changing so fast, you.

have to do what you can to protect your. family. Check out the USCCCA's risk-free. membership at. uscca.com/srs. That's. uscca.com/srs. Protect more than just. your life. Protect your future. Go right. now to. uscca.com/srs. You've heard me talk. about Patriot Mobile for a while now.

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patriotmobile.comsrs or call 972. patriot. Um, but before I was born, they. moved down to the southeast and moved. down. They found a little cottage in the. country. My mom moved 14 times, I. remember used to say. So, she's very. mobile. I think it's associated to her. father's job. I'm sure he's an. architect. Uh I think he's an engineer. as well. So essentially uh when I was. born I was born up into a very a small.

house that was always under. construction. My dad was a builder, ran. a building, small building company, joining a company. Um and it, you know, all I remember it is being a very happy. childhood. Um but we were always. outside. Um always tripping over stuff. that building materials. Uh my dad was. always sort of building extra bits to. the house. So it was quite big at the. bottom by the end of it and really small. at the top. Um uh and essentially you. know it's a very outside life. Um and.

sort of growing up even from a very very. young age um I spent a lot of time with. my mother. Um. uh my father was a competition sailor so. he actually sailed in the Olympics came. second in the world championships. Oh. wow. Built his own boats. one of which. went to the maritime museum. Um it was a. class called the Flying Dutchman which I. believe was uh deemed too dangerous. It. became Olympic class but then came too. dangerous cuz it was a the fastest of.

the racing dingies and it had a habit of. uh going end over end in certain winches. had a sper. So he's a very very. strategic and technical person a really. really brilliant person. Um um but we. spent a lot of time with my mother. Uh. my mother was an architect. Used to get. up at four o'clock in the morning. She. also did something called milk. recording. So milk recording. So you go. to farms and you record how much milk.

you're getting for from the cows. So me. and my brother would wake up on a. mattress in the back of a mini estate. It's a tiny little mini estate, very. iconic to to the UK. and we sort of open. the back doors and sort of on a farm and. go and find my mother and she's in this. sort of cow shed and noting down the. volume from each cow the milk they were. given every day very fidious but I. remember very clearly we always used to.

take a silver urn full of milk back to. the house and my dad one of my dad's. favorite things was to eat the cream. which was about that thick Wow off the. top of the. So we had a a growing up like that. You. know, I was outside a huge amount. We. didn't have a TV. In fact, we didn't. have a TV till much much later on. And. um so my dad read books and we listen to. the radio. Um you know, I wish I could. meet him at this age again cuz he's very.

very interesting person. Um uh but. essentially we spent most of our time. with my mom. My dad worked extremely. hard. is commuting a lot into into. London running a small business and in. Britain the housing market sorry uh the. building market crashed in '90s and. essentially the business went with it. So he was always working extremely hard. to try and keep this going. He had some. employees that he deeply cared about and. I remember him talking about it. Um but.

you know I spent a lot of time with my. mom very very close to her. I did a lot. of hunting when I was younger. Always. with dogs, hawks, all sorts of animals, never guns, ferrets, pole cats. Uh, and. you know, more lately, I realized that. was all my mom as well. You know, my mom. was organizing for me to go out with. someone. He had um I'm sure it was a red. American sailed eagle and a kestrel, I. think it was. Um, and we used to go out. and the horse the the eagle was actually. quite good, but the the kestrel was.

awful. It it would basically give up. wouldn't even try and get mostly rabbits. and squirrels that we're after and they. would go and sit on a power line and. just sit there like that just look down. at us. So, we spent most of our time. running around um like uh swinging. around the lure to try and get it to to. come down sort of covered in rabbit. pelt. I just remember really young age. just looking up at this hawk just. looking down at us going yeah okay do. this all day if you like and eventually.

it come back. So all those experiences, you know, sort of occurred to me later. They're all through my mom. Um and she. was um incredibly strong person, woman. I don't Everyone faces challenges in. their lives. She was holding down two to. three jobs at a time. Incredibly. supportive of my father, although he she. didn't always agree. So um me and my. brother went to boarding school at 7.

And um I still don't know how much was. this design deliberate strategy and how. much was it just opportunity at the. time. Light bulbs went off but we had a. piano in the house just like a small. baby grand I think belonged to my. grandma and she didn't have space for. it. So was in the house and by hook by. crook I started playing the piano. Um. next we started getting lessons and then. my brothers took up the violin. Oh. really? Yeah. So all of this sort of. started happening and as I say I'd never.

never know whether it was by design um. or actually it was just like oh they're. starting to play music we could turn. this into something but me and my. brother went to boarding school um at 7. years old as Queen's Chesters. Are you. twins? No. So he's 15 months older than. 15 months. So yeah so pretty close. Um a. lot of people see lots of similarities. A lot of people see lots of differences. I guess it's depends where they look. from. We're very very close as people.

He's very very busy himself. He was in. the military himself um as a. commissioned. officer. But when we went to boarding. school at 7 and I remember mom saying, you know, my mom did not support that. She she wanted us to be at home. But my. father saw it as the best opportunity he. could give us. And so. we very very funny stories from. throughout my schooling and it started. early. So went to um a school in London.

that provides coristers to the Queen's. Chapel and essentially this was a feeder. school or a preparatory school for Eaton. College. So Eaton College is a very. significant uh well-known school in uh. in in in um uh England. And so we started singing in the chapel. and I found it very hard to concentrate. I wasn't very good chister I'll admit. And we started learning music um to a. much greater level. I had a very good.

teacher actually who's uh the mother of. someone I'm very very close to still um. who taught me piano. initially but then we started scaling up. the grades and you had to be and I don't. know what grade it was but bit seven or. eight to sit a scholarship at Eaton. But. in that period of time and you know it. was a corporal punishment school and I. believe there was only three left in the. country at the time I went there. Um and. um corporate punishment school is where. you discipline children using slipper.

haird. It's a very English. thing. Uh doesn't go on now quite. rightly. I've think I've got and again. you know it's funny because you pull. sort of stuff out of your head. Um and I. do remember on one night uh in this. school under that current management I. think it's a very good school now I'm. very well run um but on a certain night. you were allowed a bath and in these you. had these rows of baths and uh in the. bottom left bath was reserved for people.

who had been misbehaving and I'd. invariably misbehaved at certain point. during most days or even a week and it's. full of cold water so you get in your. cold bought a bath and I think you had a. minute to have your bath. So there's. lots of that and it was a you know when. you look back as a child um when you've. got boarding there's boarding and day. but boarding and you're sleeping in. dormatories of 50 children you know. there's you know as a child you see some.

quite tough experiences. um I was constantly what they called. running away which wasn't running away. so it was going to get a bit of. chocolate out of the chocolate machine. at the. station at one point we made it miles. away from the Um, we're actually going. to the cinema, me and my friend. But of. course, every time they caught us, they. said it was running away and I was like, "No, I'm not running away. I'm going to. get chocolate from the chocolate. machine." So, a trend had started up. already, right? You know, I was boarding.

school. Um, my behavior is quite. challenging. Um, I didn't get it myself. I don't remember being. unhappy. Um, I did miss home a great. deal. And, um, that was, you know, they. did have very, very strict rules. You. weren't allowed to see your parents any. more than about three times a term. I. think you weren't allowed any other. clothes unless they were school clothes. Um it was all um school food. You. weren't allowed any any stuff brought.

in. No chocolate. Huh? Uh no chocolate, nothing. Right. So uh my dad and you. know this defines who he was that sort. of person. Um he was very strong and. could be quite stern but he was very. kind and he used to drive after work to. the chapel because he could intercept us. as we were coming through the cloysters. and he used to have a flute case cuz I. had to take up second instrument. So I. took up the flute which I used to sort.

of refer to as a sideways recorder and I. think I took up the flute because it's. the most easy instrument to learn to. play quickly. And again, it's, you know, looking at it. now, it's it's really quite funny, but. at the time it was all sort of done and. it was uh I don't know, it's all. perfectly normal. Uh so. um I ended up getting removed from the. school uh because it had become. untenable. But actually the amount I was. misbehaving, I was getting beaten a lot. Um it's not like beaten as in beaten.

You can't crush children by hitting. them, right? They are actually turn out. to be much more resilient than you are. And I think that was part of the problem. with the school. They resorted to the. corporal punishment far too much, spending a lot of time in detention. And. again, I don't remember being unhappy as. such. But um I don't think I, you know, I was removed, but with the intention. that it wasn't, you know, let's come up. with a different solution for it. That. was one year before I had to set my. exams uh for.

eaten. Um, so how old were how old were. you when you got there? So I went there. when I think I was just turning seven to. eight and I'm must have come out there. about 11 years old cuz I spent one year. at another school much closer to home as. a day pupil which I loved. Played lots. and lots of rugby. I was very very. sports orientated. Loved my. sport. Um, spent a year at another. school much closer to home. Sat my.

exams. scraped my entrance exams because. that's kind of how I was. academic. Um, but I got in with a music. award. So, it wasn't a full scholarship, but it was a pend it's something called. an exhibition that you turn into a. scholarship. And I got there on sports. awards as well. So, a fairly heavy bery. Uh, and went to Eaton, my brother. already there. And so, Eaton is that. school with the penguin suits. Oh, okay. Yeah. So, we got obviously secondhand.

penguin suits and they look very smart. if they're new, but I was definitely the. scruffiest child in the school. Um, and. it, you know, it's an incredible. institution, right? It's one of the. oldest institutions in the UK. It's a. very very big land owner. Therefore, they are wealthy enough to offer the. types of burseries that they do and they. actually make a lot of opportunity to. people. But there's um also hereditary. lines that reattend eaten. Um, and uh,

you know, so it's a basically a full. town and uh, and again I was I'd already. my mom always used to say when I was. young I'm right, we're just going to. leave the keys out for you. I had a. habit of leaving the house at night and. going on walkabouts and I like to walk. through the woods at night uh, and. everything. And every so often I do. remember frightening myself and running. home again. to a larger extent. I had a. habit of just getting up and just going. for a walk uh going out in the night and. I continued this trait at school but. they didn't really like it and didn't.

really understand it which I think a lot. of the accusations of running away were. just because I got in a habit of picking. the locks taking the window locks off. and crawling down vein pumps and off I. went. So uh and you know again I guess I. don't. know we've grown a trend so I still at. it and um I was I'm not I don't remember. being like really badly behaved but I. was always on the tardy book where you. had to run up had to run very early in.

the morning and sign a book do it again. at lunch and do it again at night just. before bed. Um, so the school we were. all in boarding houses. So I think the. nub of this issue was really I sort of. had loggerheads with the boarding house. So certain traditions at Eaton where the. older boys come down to the lower floors. where the younger members are and they. do certain things like bed posting and. you know that sort of what do they call. it? Initiation things. It's basically. another name for bullying.

So, uh, we were the first year across. our board. I can't remember how many in. a year, like 10 or 13, but we were. sports and music. And it traditionally. been an academic house. And I think they. just. weren't expecting what what what. difference we were like. We were. completely different, you know, and. actually we ended up going upstairs and. kind of sort of trying to dissuade them. from coming downstairs a lot. And they. just didn't know how to manage this. Um. so essentially and it's really really.

interesting actually because you know. Eaton's a really special school you know. they have really amazing people there. they have something called King's. College. um uh which Henry VII believe started. the school um with. express intent to kind of shape. academics. um I think it's got heavy lines into. political circles so shaping government. that sort of stuff so it's got a really. amazing history and I remember there was.

a guy with I think it was um multiple. sclerosis who's one of the most. brilliant mathematicians and not. predicted to make it beyond his teens. I. think he did but you know he was given. that opportunity as one of the most. brilliant mathematicians there so it's. very very special school but essentially. because I was at loggerheads with my. housemaster I kept getting in trouble. kept having to sign a tidy book which. was a lot of running which made me very. fit and I didn't mind but I wasn't. getting my homework done uh which is.

again something that's left to you to be. responsible for uh when I was getting. when you get punished in eat and you. have where you have to go and see the. lower master in my case for the bottom. years that it's called the bill and I. was on it again and again and again and. you know they're having to put special. reviews in because they've got certain. rules for you're on the bill this many. times then we have to review for. suspension. Mhm. And it was really. really interesting because when we were. clearing out my dad's desk, uh we found.

some letters between him and the lower. master and it exposed and highlighted. how to what extent the school and my. father were going to try and solve this. issue. um which is you know you could. see the intent and actually the L master. I think he felt quite sorry for me which. not not I was feeling sorry for like I. do not have a recollection of somehow. having you know being sad about this or. being unhappy as a child child at all. but I was just endlessly in bits of. trouble and uh essentially I had.

completely the wrong housemaster to. solve it and I think it came down that. you know so the lower master started. giving me chores by doing in his. gardening in his house on a Sunday and. so I'll go and do his gardening and. actually what that was was so I could. have Sunday dinner with him so I sit. down with his family and have Sunday. dinner so that's the sort of kindness. they were showing around it mag sort of. managing it in a very very interesting. way but essentially they you know it was.

going to go to one end or not and this. they looked at whether I could move to. another boarding house or not and. whether that would change um the things. people believed it did. Um but. essentially it came down to do we break. tradition? This has never been this. never happened before, you know. So um. you know I I fully appreciated. uh the levels people had gone to and you. know and when I talk about that sort of. ed educational psychology report that. was when it was done and I found it much.

more lately. there was two of them and I. found one and it's really quite. interesting and I believe that was an. agreement between my dad and the school. that let's you know let's have a look. and let's see what we can do to kind of. sort of address this because but in the. end I moved on from that school uh went. to another school um on music and sports. awards but given a. place and uh I spent I think it was less. than a year there got um removed 3 days.

after the rugby season was unbeaten and. finished. I do suspect it was done. At. least we finished the rugby season. But. I absolutely love my sport and you know. it used to make me laugh actually at. Eaton because I said you've given me all. these sports awards. And Eaton's got two. incredibly quite contactfilled games. One called the Wall Game, one called the. Field Game. And the Wall Games played in. King's College. And the field game is. played by all the others. sort the.

boarding houses and it's a mixture of. football and rugby with some quirky. rules in it and uh you know obviously I. was kind of breaking my fingers all the. time which didn't sit well with keeping. my piano scholarship. So I remember like going to piano. lessons and you know it's musical. geniuses of which these teachers were. tend to be quite sort of emotionally. charged and so when I was turning up in. these rooms. um and not able to play the.

piano becoming really really exasperated. with me uh and I was kind of sort of. perplexed by this. cuz I was like, well, you know, the house wants me to play all. this sport. You were asking me to. practice for hours doing this. Um, which. I did. You know, I do I fully fully. realize right from the start. I look. looked at the other scholars and I was. never going to be absolutely brilliant. I was good. I wouldn't have not got a. scholarship before. But you know when. you look at sets of people and you see.

okay wow you know you you will be. something that is truly special in the. future whereas for me I could have. become good and your training does a. huge amount but it only takes you so. far. Yeah and there's individual ability. that is is even more important if you. want to become part of that last 1% you. know it's it's something in there that. that that will do it. I think there's. that sort of mode of 10,000 hours of. training or whatever. It's absolutely. right. That final bit, there's something.

special inside certain. people. Um, so yeah, I mean I sort of. finished at that school. Uh, the next. school after the rugby season, 3 days. after it, I went for a period of no. school. This was just before just before. um my exams. So I was within a year of. having to take my national exams called. GCSEs. Um, I spent some time in Spain, uh, living with a Navy family there, then. came back, went to my local state school.

where I should have gone. Holy [ __ ] You. went to all kinds of schools. Yeah. Yeah. So, I had full range and it was. great. Amazing experience. But the irony. is when you go to sit your scholarship. at Eaten, uh they ask you what your. second school is and obviously you say. Eden College and another very quite sort. of I don't know what you would term it. but they're special schools. Uh this. community college um and um you I. remember them looking at me and just. being. like that's pretty.

extraordinary. So so you know I sort of. ended up back at this school. I did my. exams uh passed them okay you know. particularly strong on languages at that. point I went on to A levels still. playing lots and lots of sport uh but. within those six form years while. studying A levels and I did two. languages in sociology. um I started working uh for a building. company as a. laborer sat my exams but my attent my.

attendance levels weren't very good so. my grades certainly didn't reflect what. I could have done but really I didn't. feel that those exams were really the. key to the next step. Mhm. Um and I. became building labor working for a. local company. Loved it. There's. something called the hod. So the hod is. where you carry the bricks. You stack. them up in different um levels of brick. I think 86 and I think there was one. over 20. And I quite good at that. And. so the brick layers quite like me being.

their laborer. Um and I sort of enjoyed it and I. enjoyed that at that age. Um then I got. an offer to become an industrial roofer. So I became an industrial roofer and I. absolutely loved that. Um but it was in. the time when you could do roofing by. walking the open steels. Really. interesting job. I was traveling a lot. around the UK. Um, and it was quite, you. know, as you can imagine, certain people.

who get involved in roofing as anyone's. guess who would be in our roofing gang. at any one time. Uh, sometimes you. didn't get paid and you have to sort of. go and insist that you should be paid. Um, and uh, but it was really. interesting introduction into working. life. Enjoyed it. But I started doing. jobs in London and I was getting up at. like 4:00 in the morning. I was playing. rugby. I was doing I used to represent. certain people's gyms or used to box. Um.

so I was doing those things at night and. we were getting really quite small money. and we put on day work so we couldn't. really work hard. There was no incentive. for price work for the area. Plus they. were bringing in safety systems because. there's quite high high rate of injuries. and death in industrial roofing. They're. bringing in systems that weren't weren't. very well designed at all. So there. arrest systems that would suddenly. you're supposed to clip them on to. yourself. You're carrying sharp sheeting. and you know it suddenly stop you and.

all of a sudden the the ship so all of. that factored in just made me look. elsewhere. Um so you know I kind of. that's what sort of led me through. childhood very very different range of. schooling. Yeah. I don't think I fitted. too well at school. I didn't think, you. know, it's not like I was short of. friends, but I didn't have, it's not. like I was part of a scene at school at. all. Just sort of bimbled about got a.

lot of chores. I mean, I used to love my. chores at eating cuz they were building. stages for. theater. Sort of spent most of my. weekends. You don't get much time off, right? You have to study hard to to to. stay the grades. Um, but you know, all. my passing time, but I actually quite. enjoyed that. Um and you know I don't. like I say you know. you I don't remember being unhappy as a. child and you know I remember them diff. their difficult times you know I used to. come back my father was incredibly sort.

of disappointed and frustrated that. these schools weren't working you know. my mom didn't want us to go to boarding. school that was a very tough time for. them as she was ultimately extremely. supportive to my father and recognized. that how much they were both given up to. offer us the opportunities that we could. have been offered. Mhm. And I did speak letter with my. father about it, you know, um um. actually not long before his death, you. know, and uh I think going into the. military was a part of him. He could see.

that he it sort of found some space. Um. but you know, at the time he kept coming. up with these brilliant plans to offer. us opportunity and they just weren't. working out. That must have been. incredibly frustrating. And you can see. from the educational psychologist report. at 14, you know, the effort and energy. that was put into trying to get this in. some sort of shape where it would would. go. Would the outcomes have been any. different if I'd stayed at those. schools? I don't believe so. You know, I.

don't think, you know, as a person they. would have been. I don't I don't don't. know whether they would or not. Yeah. Um but um that was you know and again. every time I was at home I used to have. an absolutely brilliant time and then. the period of time when I was in my. GCSEs and to my A levels you know I. spent an amazing amount of time with my. mom and that was her back central you. know she's she's very very happy to be. able to see us support us and do things.

with us you know um so you know there. was there was balances everywhere. What. what got your I mean so you went from. I don't know how many schools. where you were very talented in music. and sports then you became a. construction. laborer. roofing how the hell did the military. get on your radar? So whilst I was. roofing and again you know they're long.

days in London I just like we're on day. work refixing the same panels over and. over and they're condemning the steels. below us and that was nothing to do with. this. My brother had become a. commissioned officer and he had joined. the parachute regiment. um he deployed to Kosovo and I was. watching in the background him doing all. of this interesting stuff you know the. parachuting everything else so when I. did look elsewhere from roofing.

um that became the obvious answer you. know and I didn't I had no aspirations. of being a commissioned officer as such. but you know going into the military and. seeing that you know that was. interesting it's like the parachuting is. involved you know you've gone to an. interesting place hadn't traveled a. great I used to travel with my mom a. lot. My mom used to drive my dad's boat. in a trailer um all over so he could. compete sometimes with and sometimes he. travel separately and they used sleeping. tents. He's very famous actually for.

getting up in the night and he shaved. like 2 millimeters off the keel because. he believed he'd analyze the tide right. and uh and actually he used to say I. never I'm never going to win every race. only just the occasional one because I. have a. nemesis and I remember him saying this. and I said he said my nemesis is a. sailor I believe called Rodney Patterson. who I think it's Rodney Patterson who is.

one of the world's most famous sailors. and he used to win everything and I used. to hear hear my dad say it's just. because he's got more. ability. So my mom used to drive uh my. dad's boats a lot and we go with them if. we possibly could. So we pop up in place. like San Ramo in in I think it's. Switzerland, San Ramo. Beautiful places. We staying outside or whatever and it. was brilliant. Really lots and lots of. fun. And then I did some traveling with. my mom to. Spain. Uh we went to Holland. My.

godfather was the person who designed. the Flying Dutchman, the the boat that. Oh, no kidding. Yeah. So it's called. Flying Dutchman. And my godfather uh. Conrad Gcher used to be the designer of. that boat. And I remember visiting him. in in Holland with my mom in a camper. van and he'd give us every time saw him, he'd give us one bag of red licorice. bootlaces. So I did quite a lot of. getting around and traveling with my.

mom, but when I saw my brother going off. to these places I never heard of, you. know, I was like, "Okay, well, this is. interesting.". So I walked into the recruiting office. and um said can I join the parachute. regiment? And they said. no you can join the engineers but I. don't want to join the engineers. Of. course that's when they get an. incentive set amount of money to fill. gaps in other units for recruiting. So I. sort of kept to my guns and I said I.

want to join the parach which said do. you know what you're letting yourself in. for? Um I said yes my brother brothers. parat trooper. So. um yeah that's how I ended up in uh the. military. How old were you when you. joined? Uh so 21 actually that's good. You know it's in in many aspects that's. a bit later. So people going at 18 that. period in uh roofing gangs things like. that I think stood me in very very.

goodstead uh for going into the military. just that slightly bit later having. worked in oper uh professional roles. like building laborer roofer that sort. of thing. What year is this? Uh so. basically I enlisted in November 98. 98. I assume that's when I signed something. what was going on in the world at the. time. Um, I think it was. relatively, it feels like there's lots. more now. Um, probably didn't feel like.

that to to people. Um, mainly for the UK. was Northern Ireland. Um uh the last big conflict have been. the Falklands and parachute regiment. have played a really really key part in. it alongside the Marines and the guards. and numerous other units. you know, the. Falklands war predominated. um British soldier thinking certainly. when I joined and there were still. people serving that had served and. fought in that war um and it's you know.

incredible hearing them and you know and. the Falklands war was genuinely a very. very tough experience for all of them in. proper conflict. Um, so really, you. know, I think I can't. remember two of the battalions had gone. to the Falklands and one hadn't. So. there was this thing going on in the. parachute regiment, but I didn't really. pay that much. attention. Um, so really it was all. about sort of Northern Ireland and the.

Good Friday Accords had happened. Um, so. it was really just support to, you. know, presence basically. Can you can. you describe what was what was going on. in Northern Ireland in the Good Friday? I again cuz I was quite young I can't. really explain in massive detail but you. know the history of Ireland and Northern. Ireland is very very complicated and you. know very very um you could set. communities off against each other a.

huge amount you know and uh it's got a. element in British history where uh an. element want to be apart from Britain. and an element want to be part of. Britain and uh quickly this could turn. to a great deal of violence. Um, I don't. know a huge amount about the British. military history in there, but it goes. back a long, long time. Oh, really? Um, when I went there, it was Good Thr. Accords, and therefore there wasn't much. going on. Um but there was some really.

intensive work and effort going on in in. more clever spaces, more covert. operations, that sort of stuff, you. know, whereas when I turned up as a. paratrooper, you know, and we I remember. we did lots and lots of public order. training cuz uh Northern Ireland could. um conflrate very very quickly. Um and. um so we part of our role was to support. the police in trying to prevent you know.

public order and protests. Part of our. role was patrols. So reassurance patrols. um clearance patrols. It was all sort of. pretty simple stuff. There was a huge. amount of sentry and sort of guard duty. You go around this sort of. rotation. Um and you know in my round in. parachute regiment I played a lot of. sport for them. So I played a lot of. rugby, played some of the some testing. rugby like I remember a particular game. against the Marines that was uh played.

rugby league against Marines in a what I. remember to be some concrete stadium. really really tough like um uh. competition games and they sort of were. trying to sort of encourage me into the. boxing team. Oh really? Um, so I did a. lot of boxing in there, but essentially. the two tours of Northern Ireland, they. weren't testing and challenging in that. sense. You know, the the environment. you're in, you're in a what we called a.

sub, so it's a hardened block. Um, but. you know, I don't remember getting shot. at any point. Um, there's a lot of rocks. thrown at you. Um, you know, you get. spat out bit. Um, but essentially you're. cordoning off areas because you thought. someone reported that there was a box. that couldn't be trusted and you're. waiting until it could get cleared. But. I was very very aware that there was. these forces um that we didn't. necessarily know we were stand up and be. cur to and they you know a lot of the um.

important work was getting done. there. So in a sense it was a very very. good introduction to military service. Um but when I was with the parachute. regiment and I'm not you know although I. boxed and I was quite a successful boxer. I wasn't necessarily very good. technically I didn't lose but it was. only a matter of time until I was. because you know I was winning more by. force of will than uh than good boxing.

technique and army boxing is very points. orientated and I've I've not done a long. pedigree of boxing. I spent a lot of. time boxing gyms, you know, sparring. with people uh who they used to ask me. to. So, it's not like I wasn't, but I. wasn't a boxer as such, you know, I. wasn't seeking to be competition boxer. And there was sort of a push towards me. in going into uh the army boxing team. Uh and again there was the same. suggestion for army rugby but I'd.

already kind of seen this at county. level for rugby is I was good enough to. get in but I was never going to be good. enough to really excel at it and I was. the wrong shape and size and wherever I. really enjoyed playing they wanted me. playing in a different position. Yeah. So I was never really going to enjoy it. And I actually never really got it's the. county, it's a privilege to play for it, but not if it means I'm going to be. playing on the wing all the time or. playing out of position all the.

time. So, uh, same with the boxing. You. know, the boxing, even if I was really. keen at boxing, which I wasn't, um, then, you know, the style of boxing just. didn't suit me. It was very much. straight punching. um you know obviously aren't quite sure. my arms are I'm never going to really. beat on reach and army boxing was all. about. So when they were trying to push. me into um into the army boxing team for. trials you know I was being held at a.

very very low weight um and it was seen. as a privilege to be on the boxing team. So when I pushed back and said no, I. don't want to, it didn't go down very. well with certain people. Interesting. You know, and it's brilliant, you know. What did you want to do? So I had. already noticed uh so on the bottom of. one of my pay slips uh was a notice that. you know, it's essentially saying if get. paid more um and there was a invite to. be considered for special duties.

Special duties is a a community so an SF. community as such. So, I'd already got. my notice. I'd obviously been to. Northern Ireland and saw some of the. work that was going on. Didn't fully. understand it. Um, but I knew there was. something else and that's why I ended up. how how I ended up applying for. selection and going on selection. And. selection is our name for entrance into. um the SAS or the SPS. Interesting. So.

they so they they put in they put a. notice on your pay slips of who they. want to try. out pulling this out the back of my I. just remember seeing a comment or a. caption saying you know it is all about. professional development or something. like that and it was something I'd. noticed that said you know there's. something else there know to that point. remembering that you know I joined the. parachute regiment really to cuz it was. interesting. I hadn't had a long period.

of time of knowledge of military. Um my. father was very supportive of both of us. going into the military. He was a huge. believer in uh the military as an. institution. Uh he himself had served in. the military albeit only for a few years. as a bomb. disposal person. So mostly he was. disposing of World War II munitions. Uh. did a tour in Germany. Uh, and I. remember he had sort of good memories of. of doing that. Uh, and he'd learned to.

ski there and he'd learned to do all. sorts of stuff. So, I remember my father. had a very positive opinion of it. And, uh, I don't remember my mom being. against it. Although my mom was that. sort of person, right? She was so. strong. even if she didn't like it, she. wouldn't have said, you know, so. essentially whatever decisions we would. make, she would quietly culture the way. we went about them. Very clever in how. she did it, but ultimately she would.

support you, you know, as long as it. wasn't a bad. idea and but I don't imagine my mom. would have been, you know, brilliant. Um, but not against either. So I know my. mom was actually very proud of it as. well. What? So what? So the caption said. you'd get more pay. Something about um. pay and something about development. I. can't remember exactly what it was, but. that's what caught my eye and that's. what made me start sort of asking.

questions about where do you go from. here? Um from from the parachute. regiment, you know, and um the parachute. regiment in particular is very. supportive other units. A lot of other. units in the British army don't like. losing you. So they try and make it. difficult for you to move on. Whereas um uh I was lucky you know I got. a lot of support. I was asking to go. quite early. um and essentially I was you know I'd. not spent a lot of time um being graded. as a soldier so they could look at me.

and be like okay but obviously my. performance was good enough. Um I did. get um champion recruiting training um. which I don't know what that means. because I certainly wasn't for. drill. Um so clearly I was sort of. capable. They were seeing that I was. able. So when it came to me sort of. saying you know look can I get have a go. at that um I got the support of the. unit. Uh when I was in parachute. regiment I went to support company which.

is the machine gun platoon. It's the. anti-tank platoon and the mortar. platoon. And I remember um really as I. was passing, you know, they are elite. soldiers. The marines and the parachute. regiment are the elite infantry as such. And the parachute regiment in particular. is configured for air airborne. forces. Um not delivery by parachute. really so much anymore, but it's kind of. airborne delivery. But the mindset is. all about, you know, an offensive.

nature. Uh, and we did, you know, platoon attack after platoon attack, a. company attack, company attack. That's. what you excelled at. Um, so I I really. enjoyed it. It was very very tough. Um, there's a lot of getting messed about, you know, on a Friday we used to do a 10. mileer test and I remember if you didn't. pass it, you wouldn't go home. So, you. know, it's a good tough existence and I. really really respected it. Uh, and some. of the soldiers you served alongside are. incredible people. you know, they they.

you see what real professional. soldiering looks like. And I remember. looking across and. um and in the machine gun platoon, uh we. became like any other um uh company in. the unit when we went to Northern. Ireland cuz there's no call for any of. that. So, you just become a normal. patrols uh company. When we came back, we got the opportunity to do the course. which is the Carter to join the support. company machine guns. Um, which is a.

tough course in itself. I remember it. being a month long carrying um tripod. mounted guns, learning about gun lines. and everything else, you know. Um, but. that's also where, you know, I started, you know, getting pretty beaten up by. being in gun lines, you know, 50 cows. and you're in amongst it. You're lying. right next to it. uh and you know I didn't pick up on it. at the. time. Um so it was brilliant doing lots. of sport really really enjoyable but.

there periods of getting back to. barracks and you just sort of you start. getting a sense of like how challenging. this job can be in certain respects you. know I remember kind of losing my. balance a lot and this is only. retrospective understanding of what was. going on at the time you just all sort. of sucked it up as tiredness or or. whatever. Um, you know, some of the um. the uh brigade exercises we'd do, we'd. have really really long tabs carrying a. tripod mount um carrying tons and tons.

of ammunition we knew was never going to. fire cuz uh the GPMG doesn't work very. well on. blanks. So, it's a bit sort of soul. destroyed. Uh you know, so and it it. really was very very hard professional. soldiering. um a absolutely fantastic foundation to. have built and come from. Um and the. sport I think was really really. enjoyable although something in me was. like you know I didn't join this to be. all about sport.

Um so you know I enjoyed my time there. um but it was roughly about 3 years um. you know I can't pick out the dates. exactly from when I entered or asked for. selection. You do some preparation. particularly. navigation. Selection is very tough for. navigation. So they get you ready for. selection. Yeah. So the parachute. regiment are really professional how. they do it right because actually they. take a pride in you passing and um so we. did some courses. I remember so when I.

did drill and duties which is a a a. lower echelon command course. um to. become a lance corporal you had to do it. and I was I remember on it and actually. that was when I remember 9/11 happened. and I was on the jewel square at the. time and I remember becoming aware of of. this this um event that had happened and. um I can't remember we watched it on TV.

but I remember then something sort. of occurring to me this is something. really really important but I was on uh. command course at that point. And so. they were preparing me to stay in the. parachute regiment on the expectancy. that you would not pass selection cuz. most people don't. But essentially. they're also giving you courses to. prepare you for it. And that was just. simply how to read a map effectively. You know selection is the type of course.

you prepare for it. You should prepare. for it. You know how much time did you. have to prepare for it? I can't. remember. Great. You know, I think it. was about kind of sort of 3 to 5 months. You still had to do all your duties, but. you got appropriated times. I have two. weeks here, have one week here. There's. a course teaching navigation go on that, you know, and actually that's really, you know, the units don't have to do. that. Um, but I think it's a good level. of cooperation. Um, because ultimately, you know, people should want their.

soldiers to go on to the special forces. community. Were you aware of what you. were getting ready to try out for? Um, yes and no. As in No, I wasn't. really aware of these units too much. You know, I hadn't paid too much. attention. Some people really are aware. of it from a very early uh early um. point and they're working towards it. I. wasn't, you know, at each step. I kind. of did it and then reviewed what I was.

where I was and was like, "Okay, well, you know, is there a next bit? Where do. I go next?" So, I hadn't really. considered it and I hadn't really. considered their role. It changes. Well, their role doesn't change, but what. they're doing at A1 Time does. But I. simply just went on selection because it. was a progressive step. Gotcha. Um, and. it was a, you know, highly highly highly. respected community. The whole community. is within the military. Um, so it was a natural place to go. Um,

and I didn't necessarily take loads of. advice. I don't think I saw source it, you know, just instinct saying it's a. good move to make. Um, so go. there and um yeah, I mean it's uh what. was what was it like checking in for. selection? It's daunting because you got so many. people there. How many uh I think on my. selection and know forgive me for the.

numbers because I really can't remember. how to be accurate on these but 240 or. something started 240 people I think so. yes I mean you get some that 120 some. that 160 I think ours was particularly. big because of 911. potentially yes yeah I'll do that what. did what was the I. And what what did what was the pulse of. UK when 9/11.

happened? So absolute shock as in you. know I think everyone was universally. shocked by it and there was a real. feeling that this is something extremely. important. Um that's across society and. the public. I think there was a real. nervousness. about it. It was just shock you know. it's like how was this happened you know. and um you know within the military. there was an anticipation of what was to. come we knew it was going to be.

something no one was guessing what um. but we knew that there was going to be. an extremely important part to play and. I you know and again thinking about what. people were feeling or whatever is a. very kind of sort of inaccurate science. but it really really got the sense that. people felt threatened themselves by you. know, why could this not as equally. happen in this country, you know, and um. so I think it was took extremely. seriously. Um I think there was an. expectation of what was to come and I.

think people everyone was watching it. very very. intently to see what was what was going. to be the response you know would people. capitulate and give the people that are. responsible up um which they. didn't. So you you joined at 21, spent 3. years, 9/11 happens in there, and then. by the time you're. 24, you're trying out for That's right. Yeah. about mid 24, I think it was. Um,

and it takes six 6 months. Selection. Yes. Tested every day. So by the time I. probably 25 by the time I went in. I. mean, I I can't feel if I got a pen and. paper, I'd be able to work it out. I was. either 24 when I became what's called. badged or I was 25. Okay. So, what is. what does day one look like when you go. to selection? Just a mass of people. Um, you know, and um I can't remember.

there's a it's very very very physical. Um, and it's designed to be that way and. we I mean I always made a joke you could. turn up as an Olympian and be no better. off than the next person in about 2. weeks cuz that's what it's designed to. do is strip you down physically. Mhm. Um. because what they're really interested. in is what sort of person are you, you. know, and how sort of mentally tough and. pied can you be? And you can't test that. out when there's still such massive. individual differences in physicality. Um so, you know, it's not that you can.

reduce everyone down to a level. platform. How would they do that? Um. just, you know, there's uh runs all the. time. Um carries up hills. Almost at. every point you're getting run around to. do something. Um, there's some tuition. in it. So, they're teaching you some. skills in how to then do test week and. they're building you up and developing. I mean, let's face it, no one's. succeeding in their job if everyone. fails everything. You need to get people.

through these. So, ultimately, I saw. what they were doing as it was helpful. and the DS were extremely well trained. Um, and they essentially preparing you, although it didn't feel like it. Uh. what's interesting about selection is. you don't get any encouragement at all. Uh that's one of the tests. It's seeing. what's inside you. You know, it's like, you know, you don't get shouted at play. a few games with you. You know, give you. call you a name or two, right? They're.

not necessarily trying to be your. friend. Um but they're certainly not. giving you any encouragement and you. don't really get shouted at you. You. know, if you've had enough, you get told. to put your bergen down. And that was. very very interesting because I think. essentially what they're looking at is. each individual to sort of demonstrate. who they are themselves, you know, and I. tend to see that the people are there to. try and just impress the uh the. directing staff, you know, they'd be. some of the first to go. Really? Do most.

people quit or do they fail? Most people. quit. Um well, no. in the first part. which is all physical. It's hills and. tests over marches, test marches with. weight. Um it's that people will fail. mostly at that point. So that's the big. reduction in numbers. But when you go. into the jungle, that's when people more. people will fail themselves by. withdrawing when you go into the jungle. Yes. So this isn't this isn't just a.

selection that takes place in UK. No. So. you bounce only what that part is. to be. going to the jungle for a considerable. period of time and that's from the. history of the unit having served in the. jungle in Malaya and seeing some of the. challenges of that environment. So they. look at you in the jungle and the jungle. is a real great arbiter, right? You. know, you know, you get these people who. make a very good um uh play of uh who. they are in the jungle exposes you. straight away. You know, it's very very.

tough environment being where do you go? Uh so uh over by Malaysia. So it's over. in the Malaya in the Malaya area. So is. is selection broken up into phases or is. it how long is it 6 months? Uh yeah so 6. months I remember it's 182 tested days. it's actually I don't know it is tested. but at certain stages you then become. expected to pass but essentially you've. got you've got your physical part which. is your hills phase you've got your.

jungle part which is when they start. being interested in who you are so they. look at you as a character and they. start most importantly they're looking. whether you support one another because. you can go into they want a team player. you can be the biggest superstar, you. know, the greatest. physical, you know, specimen specimen in. the world. If you cannot work amongst. other people and support one another, you are never going to be good. So, in.

my opinion, any special forces unit, but. definitely not that one. Mhm. Um, and. that's a really really key trait that. they're looking for. And they're also. looking for that thing in you that says, you know, it's got too tough. I want. some respite. I need a moment. Well, that's called voluntary withdrawal. What? So, the first is all ruck marches and. yes, physical test. What are you doing. in the jungle? Jungle is more operating. in the jungle. Uh, it's not spec, it's.

basically used because it's such an. amazing environment to see what soldiers. are like and characters are like, but. you're also starting to learn the SOPs, the standing operating procedures, how. to exist in a tough environment. You do. a lot of patrolling. Um you do a small. amount of um survival. You do other. bits, but essentially it's really uh. used as a way of looking at you to see. whether you're suitable for service. What kind of survival? I say you just go. without food. Uh and then it's up to you.

to kind of survive. Uh you know, they. bump you at one point like they usually. do. See how you respond to things. You. have to go on long long patrols. And you. know, the jungle is a very tough. environment to exist in. You know, you. you you you you only sleep at night. Um. you get up in the morning in the dark, put cold, wet clothes on. You have to. work hard to stop your body from. rotting, you know. So all of these. things are very interesting things to. look at when you're trying to um. evaluate someone for whether they're.

going to take the easy way out, you. know, whether they're sort of nipping on. their um administration, you know, and. you make mistake in the jungle, you. aren't coming back from it, right? Um. you just aren't. How long is the jungle. phase? Uh. so 6 weeks. Six weeks. No, but not all. of that's in jungle. Some of it is. preparation. I'm sure it's six weeks. Some some something like six weeks.

Close to six weeks. Yeah. How long do. you go without food? Not not not long. there. Just I think it's it's just a. kind of introduction to Mhm. Cuz I. haven't had the chance to train you at. this point, you know. I haven't had the. chance to Oh, so this is like light. instruction, like very little. instruction. Yeah. So, most of all, they're looking at you. Okay. Learn. enough to be quite basic in the jungle. Patrol, set up your camps, whatever you. do. They're really just looking. Yeah.

Um and uh ranges in the jungle extremely. tough. You know, the environment is. really kind of quite oppressive. You. can't see far. You know, again, it's you. have to rely on a lot of your instincts. to tell you what's going on. Um you. know, it's it's very noisy, can be very. wet. everything's trying to eat you and. it's all really small, you know, and it. can can be very very uncomfortable. If. you take shortcuts on your. administration, you'll quickly become. ill. Your body will start having.

problems and rotting, you know. So, all. of these things, they can just allow to. happen. Um, you know, you do some. really, really tough physical tests. Very, very humid. You know, the the the. hills there are very very steep. Um, so you do some very very tough. physical tests and they're looking for. that moment, you know, looking for that. moment. You say, "Look, you know, I'm. done. I'm done." Or, you know, and vast. majority of people who say that, they. kind of change their mind quite soon.

after. Um, but that's what they're. looking for. What where do you go after. jungle phase? So, they do a review. everyone and then they pass or fail you. afterwards. the ones that I've done and. you go and do a series of different um. courses uh sort of tuition. courses. So you cover. uh stuff like signals. I think I might. be getting the order mixed up here but. you know you do your skills and you. learn various things but the significant. phase is then you start going into.

um. um mastering basic OP. So living close. with people in in holes and mastering. some sort of elementary. um elements of surveillance and. reconnaissance. Um then you um I think. do some parachuting for the ones who are. not. So for us I was a trained. paratrooper already. So I didn't have to. do the basic part just had to convert. onto different parachutes.

Um there's an element of starting to do. sort of multifloor multi room combat. which is you know CQB is very very tough. testing environments. Uh the margins are. very small and the arcs are down. So. that can be a challenge for certain. people. And again all of these things if. they deem you unsafe um then ultimately. they fail you. The last thing people. want in this in these sorts of roles is. people are out of their depth all the. time. So they that's why it's called.

pass or fail all the way through. Mhm. Um but it's unlikely you're going to. start failing after that. There's a. after CQB. No. So it there's an escape. and evasion phase. Um it's quite. iconic. Um, and it's split up into how. to survive out in the wild, out in. unsupported environment, and then. there's a a part where you just get. chased around by hunt force. And there's. another part where you go and, you know,

you have your uh introductions to. interrogation phases and things like. that. You know, at that point, if you've. passed that, you're expected to pass. Oh, okay. But, you know, if you get. through the jungle, people That's the. majority. Yeah, you'd be like, you know, you don't want to lose people after. that. You know, I did pick up on it. It's not it's not supposed to be. friendly, but you're kind of, oh, this. is a joint effort. And there was a level. of trust in it. You know, the way I went. about selection is, you know, I was.

like, I'm just going to be here. I'm. never going to question whether I'm good. enough or not because actually it's up. to the DS to tell you that and they will. do you know and actually if if you're. going to be failed you know and I found. it was a better way to go about it for. me then have to keep keep questioning am. I good enough for this have I done well. enough you know you cannot go through. that period of training and have not. have a couple of mistakes you know. you'll have a couple of safety calls all. that sort of stuff you know and that can.

weigh heavily on you if you let it so. you just accept it. It's moved on. Do. you know what? It's your decision. You. know, at the end of the day, you know, you're either going to get carried off. because you're injured or you're going. to get felt cuz you're not good enough. Mhm. And that's that was a good enough. sort of stage for me, you know, and. essentially, you know, it's not. comfortable. It's not meant to be. comfortable. Uh and parts of it are. enjoyable, but only very very small. parts. How many people disappeared from the.

start until after jungle phase? How many people. disappeared? So, if I remember rightly, I think after the jungle, we're down to. roughly about 36. Oh [ __ ] I don't know. why 36 out. Yeah. Yeah. So, but the the. main loss of numbers is is um on the. physical phase. Gotcha. at the start you. know and um they they I don't think. selection's changed much you know it's a.

tried and tested pathway and it prepares. people very well but they may have. adjusted certain parts of it now uh and. the way they do it but essentially you. know there's a test at the end of the. first week and if you don't pass that. and a lot of people don't then that so. you lose a lot of numbers in the first. week and down but you know it's. pointless staying on the course if. you're never going to make it to the. end, right? It's better to sort everyone. out quite early. Mhm. Look at things. And I don't know why 36 stands in my.

head, but it does. I'm pretty sure it. was 36 by the end of that phase. And. then we only. lost I think another 10. Wow. I think. so. And so down from about roughly 240. people to 26 by the uh I think so. Yeah. And they they were split between the two. units, you know, uh SCS and SB. How do. you know? Well, we'll get there. So, what happens when you pass everything? Can't remember. So, I think it's it's. work as normal. You get sent to a.

squadron. Um, and I think What do they. tell you? I mean, is there a. graduation? They tell you. congratulations. I don't remember one. Eh, you get. given that you get a visit from the. commander who gives you your beret and. it's an enormously proud. um like moment. hugely proud. You know, I remember passing the jungle and it was. just like, wow, you know, and bearing in. mind I hadn't gone into this with the.

sort of knowing a lot about it, you. know. So, that sense of like really. valuable will to be part of this was. really from from my first interactions. um from going on there. And I remember a. huge sense of pride from, you know, um, from getting that beret. And it's given. to you, I'm pretty sure, by the. commander and the the existing S major. I can't even remember where it happened. I assume in Heraford somewhere, and I.

think it's fairly sort of inospicious, but it's very, very special moment. So, it's like well done. Um, but essentially. everyone then joins their squadrons. Uh, and off they go. How do you know if. you're going SAS or SPS? Uh in those. days it was choice. It was choice. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it makes sense for there. to be choice. And I have this. conversation quite a lot about, you. know, par paratroopers and marines. You. know, you know these they're both elite. infantry and they're both incredible. professional soldiers. There's something.

within you that wants to be a. paratrooper and an airborne forces. And. there's something in you that wants to. be a marine. And I think that is good to. have that element of still I want to be. that. I think it's that final part of. pride, you know, and um it's interesting. seeing what choices people make, you. know, and you SPS is a mainly maritime. organization. We share all of the same. roles, missions and tasks, but their. emphasis is.

maritime. The SS was emphasis was they. sort of air and land. Um didn't mean. that others didn't support one another. in it. Um but you know essentially it. made sense that people got to make the. choice but in terms of professionalism. as soldiers and in terms of what you're. asked to do they're equals. There isn't. a difference and um you do the same. selection. um you you you go.

into the same environment as such. totally different in locations and you. know a sense but you you have signed up. to special forces units at that level. and that's what you're asked to do and. you pick USA yes yes at the time. and you know if I do it all again I'd. pick that again you know that's that was. what was within me you know and I don't. don't mind maritime environment. Yeah, but it's. you know at that time it was all.

paratrooper and and this this this that. and the other you know and it's. important to mention that both those. units select you know from all over many. have international um people that join. from you know New Zealand had a number. of friends who are New Zealanders um you. know and it that go that harks back to. its heritage in World War II which is. essentially if we understand your. background around and you share our uh. mission, then you're welcome to come and.

have a try. Oh, interesting. You know, so you know, at the end of the day, it's. not that you're procluded. Um but um you. would expect the SPS to be quite heavily. marine orientated. Gotcha. Um the. parachute regiment used to have a lot of. people in, but I think it's more. definitely more sort of spread now uh. between people. But let's face it, if. you're a really decent professional. soldier, you can learn the rest of the. skills. And what's beautiful about. special forces role is it is quite.

varied. And it's multiple skills all. applied. And most of those can be taught. and trained if you've got the right. characteristics to apply to it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's take a quick break and. when we come back, we'll talk about how. it was to check into the unit. Yes. Perfect. Perfect. My partner, the award-winning precious. metals company Gold Co. has a special. offer for you. Right now, you can get a.

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Helixleep.com/srs. All right, John, we're back from the break. So, I want to. talk about what it was like for you to. check into the legendary SAS unit. Yeah, I mean. it it's really you enter a an ecosystem. that's already running hot. Mhm. Uh and. essentially it's a constant process of. courses, training and deployments when. they happen. And for me um my team was.

already preparing to go away because. Iraq had was already in the process. So. it just depends on where you you know. what what um squadrons you get sent to. um what you're likely to then be. involved in first. But there's an. element of courses. They catch up on. your courses very very quickly. Um. you're meeting soldiers that have had. lots and lots of experience in so many. ways that you don't recognize in the. wider military. Um you know so.

immediately you pick up on there's lots. of other skills that you've got to learn. and master. Um, so I mean I don't. remember being overwhelmed by it. I. remember enjoying it a huge amount. What. do they How do they greet you? Are they welcoming or or are they. treating you like an FNG? You know what. I mean? No. No. So I mean it's. welcoming. Yeah. It's welcoming but very. very grown up. That's. Let's just call it very grown up, right?

you know, um, essentially you're on, uh, a test and trial period anyway. Okay. You always are. So, you go through All. right. So, just walk me through the. pipeline. So, you go through a six-mon. selection process. You do in there, you. do CQB, land navigation, escape and. evasion, survival, parachuting, pretty much all. the stuff that it takes to turn you into. a special operator. Correct. At the. lowest level. At the lowest level. So. these are the very very just the basic.

basic skills. So this is similar I don't. know how familiar you are with with our. pipelines but this this sounds very. similar to me as as buds. Yes. For seals. seal training where you we go through. the first two months is of kicking the. balls where it's just you're cold, you're wet, you're miserable. It's lots. and lots of PT and and and physical. tests. And then you move into a dive.

phase for 2 months. Then you move into a. land warfare phase for 2 months. And. then you go to jump school. And then you. show up to to the unit, which is roughly. 6 months if you make it in one shot. that that's exactly right. It's that you. you turn up having learned rather than, you know, really become very good at the. bare elements of what you're going to. need to do. Now, the So, you're you're a. guy that they.

just just like very similar to Buds, you. are a nobody when you show up to the. unit and then the unit trains you into. what it needs you to become. Totally. and they do it with urgency. Um so it. really depends on um what your squadron. is next going to be devoted to committed. to um that will inform what immediate. courses you're doing but essentially. it's you know and again it's great thing. about it's education education education.

I did a mort course very early um I but. they'll up train you immediately join in. with squadron training where they are. looking at you to see how quickly you. fitted and how well you can sink into it. uh and people spend intensive um periods. of time training you individually, you. know, to help you within your own teams. Um another thing that they will be under. a lot of pressure to do is train you in. your specific insertion skills. So each.

team has a real major in certain types. of insertion. So it's um air mobility, boat, and um mounting. So mountain um. but essentially you may be waiting quite. a period of time to do that and so you. don't feel like you're properly. accreditated until you've sort of done. those courses as well but it may depend. on what you're doing. Now I deployed. quite quickly. Um so how fast did you. deploy? I cannot remember but you know. it's within months if not weeks. Within.

weeks? Yeah. So holy [ __ ] Basically it. was because Iraq was underway already. What year is this? uh 2003. Oh, so that that was the invasion. Yes. Yes. Okay. So essentially that informed. exactly you're you know you basically. they look at where the numbers issues. are and they just put numbers against. it. You get preferences in you know what. you want to major in. So I picked air.

mounting. Uh that would mean that I'd. become very specialist in parachuting. We're all good at parachuting, but just that sort of step up. Whereas. mountain, you know, you. uh I used to always sort of consider. mountain is a bit of a an odd one. because we do a lot of urban climbing. Um we do um ridge navigating across. ridge lines, but you know, when you're. climbing a mountain to get to the top of. it, it's not really all about that. Although people do a lot of people go up.

Everest and do sort of amazing. expeditions but it's not really roll. operated. It's not really sort of. operations orientated. So mountains. quite a interesting one to. pass. Um but I was waiting quite a while. because I did my first deployment. first. Um I think yeah I'm absolutely. sure I did my first and these when our. deployments were shorter periods of. time. What is the what is the sorry but.

how is how is SAS broken up? So there's. four main squadrons and there's elements. of departments and wings um that provide. various functions of support, tuition, instruction uh back in uh a lot of and I. always used to say you know special. forces roles that unit's role uh I'd. probably subdivide it into 70% 30% 70%. support to other we support our. emergency services um you know on on a. national remit we do a lot of support to.

other people we do a lot training to. other people. And it's also important um. when you're talking about UK special. forces to to recognize that we don't. have a tiered system. So we refer to our. SCS and SPS's tier ones to be. comparative levels in communication. knowledge and understanding with um US. special forces. But actually the unit. covers multiple tiers of operations and. ways to do things. Okay. And I think it.

is part of its strength because you know. everyone is orientated differently. The. resources they have are different and um. certainly I enjoyed having that range of. activity and operations that I took part. in. So but tier one is a status where. you can only be appropriated certain. missions. You know it would be unfair to. for instance take someone who is a. reserve and give them a hostage rescue. to do. You know hostage rescue is an. incredibly complex mission to do. you. have to train very hard and you have to.

be assured at certain at so many skills. So you know the the two unit two units. the SCS and the SPS are comparative in. that that respect but they will also. deliver lots of other activity and. support which would be recognized as. tier 2, tier three, tier four. Um so. myriad of school skills we learn is also. reflective of that. Okay. Um, so, um, are you guys foreign and domestic? Yes. Yeah. Yes, we're global. What kind of.

stuff would you do? So, we support, so the the UK has got um. an interesting construct that you don't. see many where there's something called. military assistance that can be given to. the emergency services. So, this has. happened. You saw it in the Iranian. embassy siege. Um the the unit has. always had a very very high priority to. support our emergency services at times. when it's to do with terrorism. So it's.

never anything to do with criminal at. all. It's always terrorism and we have a. remmit to support everyone. So we have. to train very um very consciously with. that. you know, it's the highest. priority we've got actually and it's. conditioned with dedicated teams. constantly and it's a role that you go. through. So that forms a key part of our. training and every role that we go. through from a glo global remmit to an. operations window to a domestic CT. remit, we will have a set of um.

preparation exercises and currency. exercises we'll do to ensure we've got. the skills and we've proved ourselves um. up to a very very thorough level um to. prove that we're good to take over that. role and then they'll hand over and. essentially it was a 2-year cycle. So if. you appropriate six months to each and. you cycle through that. So it's a pretty. relentless operational rotation. How is. the cycle? So what in what order does it.

go? Yeah. Can't exactly what order but. there's a tier of domestic CT. So. support um to um our our. services I think think operations. window come back then you have your. global standby remmit where you'll go. and you'll support anything that happens. or there's something that happens they. need to deploy teams to. So often. there'll be small teams um if there's a.

hostage rescue um to do then you'll be. stood up immediately for that and then. there's a period of uh training where. you'll go away and do some sort of. environmental training. Okay. So you'll. share it and make sure because we have. to operate in every single environment. So we train and prove in every single. environment. So over the years they'll. prove desert, they'll prove jungle, they'll prove mountain. Um so it's it's. always an arrangement. It's got those. three pillars in of domestic support,

operations, global remmit and then a. period of uh preparation that they sort. of meld together inside. But taking over. and handing over those different. responsibilities is is really. non-conditional. You have to do on a. certain date. you have to prove to. yourself by a certain time. What that. results in is an endless cycle of. training and preparation and currencies. Um that's very very hard and intensive. on the uh on the unit to keep up. But.

essentially as a soldier you're gaining. so many skills as you go along and. you're taking on more and more. You know. I was um for instance I became. demolitions trained and then emo he. trained. there was a breach on certain. squadrons but also JTAC joint terminal. air controller um attack controller um. so in our parliament that started off as. an FAC which came subfac supervisory FAC. so you look at all of these ranges of. skills and I think that's one of the.

strengths of the the the members of the. unit is they become multiple skilled in. in lots but you know we always used to. sort of laugh because it's very very. hard to stay good at these skills and. current at these skills. because they adapt and change all the. time. So within all of that rotation. they've built in other courses that you. need to do. Got um every period of time. you'll go on a post as well and it'll. either be support externally or to one. of the instructors wings uh and then.

you'll take part in obviously. instructing. um and ensuring that um squadrons are. prepared, selection is delivered, all of. those sorts of things. Okay. Interesting. So you go to Baghdad. Yeah. Or you go to Iraq. You go Did you go to. Baghdad? Yeah. Straight in cuz it was it. was I arrived just as I was actually. doing courses to prepare. So I remember. doing a mortars course. Um and I can't. remember what other courses but cuz I.

was brand new I was doing these courses. all the way through. Uh so I caught. everyone up um really not long after you. know Baghdad had um you know. um uh people had got to the center of. Baghdad and sort of secured it. What was. that like for you? Yeah, I mean it's. absolutely a huge eye opener. you know, experience have been really quite sort. of being a paratrooper, very very. exciting, but to be put into an complex.

environment like that. How following up. on something that was a war um was. really in sort of an incredible. experience for someone so young, you. know, really really opened my eyes. For. the first time I was meeting and um uh. often and interlocuting with US forces. uh and then gradually we became part of. a comprised task force um that was. mostly US forces. I don't remember if. there's any other nationalities in there.

but we were part of it as well and that. was an incredible learning experience. Um but bearing in mind I had no. experience backwards. So I was quite. adaptive as state I could be quite. adaptive but I was noticing difference. in equipment. I was noticing difference. in techniques, tactics and procedures. and I was noticing very very big. difference in equipment and uh at that. time uh Baghdad and Iraq was relatively. safe and I remember there being quite a. sense of hope and opportunity.

um there but then quickly security. started breaking down you know you were. noticing the looting no one's. interfering with us but quickly there. were no go areas springing up like I. remember Hyifa Street being one of the. notable. areas. Um, and uh, you know, you just. got a sense that, you know, things were. going to turn. Um, but essentially that. first tour it was very very busy. You. know, you had the that that deck of. cards, you had the former regime.

elements and I remember kind of sort of. coming up against them and most of them. were relieved to actually not be tracked. down by militias or things, you know. And I remember also um I don't think. there were any suicide bombs going off. at that period. And there was a sense of. hope, but I do have recollections of I'm. sure we went into Sad City and we were. kind of there was something to do with. electricity substation, something that. was very critical that someone needed to. look at and uh I bumped into I standing.

on the corner and again you know it was. actually quite not relaxed. you're aware. that it was all very I wouldn't say uh I. don't know anybody that's been relaxed. in Solder City. No, no. The um but there. was a sense and you know and I'm sure it. was an electricity substation. It was a. key of like we can get the electricity. stable and I bumped into a young Iraqi. boy coming back. So I was speaking to. him and he speaking English. I was.

asking him saying oh you know how how. you doing like what what are you doing? He said I'm going home to do my French. homework. And I was like, "Okay, well, I. speak French when I see uh help you.". And uh essentially I just sort of sat. down and helped him do his French. homework. And it just struck me that at. that time there was actually quite a. um element of hope amongst the public. However, you didn't have to look too far. to see between the seams of these. collections of militia type.

organizations growing up and quickly. taking areas of control. And I remember, you know, they called that debar uh. barification sort of element um quite. early. I'm sure is that that that first. tour and uh it's sort of sudden suddenly. occurring to me that you know this. is I don't see how you can remove the. whole governance from a country. It's. it's very very hard to do. It's not just. about positions. It's about people's. loyalty and who's paying their their.

wages and you just got a sense that this. was going to become very very complex. very very quickly and by the second tour. it had already. Did you did you go. kinetic on your first tour? If we did, I can't remember much of it. You know, I think I don't think it was. particularly organized. You know, the. main threat is we were driving around in. unarmored vehicles. You felt quite. exposed and there was a lot of unrest as.

in a lot of movement and everything. else. But I can't remember people. fareing us too much. Um, I definitely. notic no operation sticks out. particularly, but you did get that. element of this will quickly become. coordinated and complex. Do you. remember your first operation where it. went kinetic? So, I can't really pick it out. I think. it was on my second tour. I think it was.

on my second tour. It might have been on. the first, right? We did quite a lot of. operations up into Crit. Um and um you. know it's I can't pick it out if it was. there. And on the second tour, you know, it was more about events that started. happening. Um and there were there were. sort of exchanges at breach points and. moving to but we hadn't been we hadn't. got particularly coordinated in uh we've. been shot at from roofs a lot. you know,

it all started but there was not really. any sort of coordinated. um action against us and the targets we. started on um al-Qaeda associated. targets in the second tour and that's. not because we that became our mission. and task. It's because we started coming. across these these houses where, you. know, they weren't that often armed, but. when they're armed, they were heavily. armed, you know, and. um uh and the main thing that happened. on the second tour as our own uh.

Hercules getting shot down, which we. responded to extremely quickly. Uh and. that was a very very significant moment. in that tour. Your own what being shot. down? So, our transport Hercules. uh and essentially what is a Hercules? Uh transport plane. Okay. So, we have. specifically trained aviation crews. because of the complexity of of what. they're doing. And at that point, we. were moving about a lot. I remember. there was.

um uh on the second tour there was a lot. of moving around into different regions, contacting other forces, doing bits with. them. uh a lot up to the west up towards. Ramadi and you could see that like. funnel and that's where we started. coming across these houses um these. groups that were dressed simile and. mainly I think we were connecting with. um US forces I think the most. significant thing in that tour these.

were short tours they were about three. months at a time and um it was our our. Hercules so the Hercules had just. dropped off and it took off again was. heading for BAD and it's the time when. they were SL flying low level and um we. heard a Mayday call um because it goes. over international channels as well so. unhelpfully Sky News reported it and it. was a UK badged Hercules that was shot. down in the ons of Iraq so it was off.

towards the northeast or northwest. heading towards Ballad. Um, I don't know. the the details about how they managed. to shoot it down other than it was some. sort of rocket pack and the herk. probably was, you know, how it's very. very difficult to continue to break up. your patterns if you're flying in and. out with that density and volume of of. times. Um, but essentially we got into. the pummers and responded very quickly. to this. And um, uh, as you can imagine, responding to an aircraft crash like.

that um is. It's. almost perplexing the scene you come. across because there's nothing. identifiable. There was only the tail. plane and nothing else that was. particularly identifiable about it. It. was coming in night. I remember there. was a fire in a ditch cuz there was an a. water fil ditch and there was a fire. burning on top. and essentially we sort of cleared the. area. It's in a very very difficult. area.

Uh, how did you insert uh on our. helicopters? So, we had our helicopters. right by our house and essentially we we. could get on them very very quickly, run. them up and we just flew up the flight. line, found where that um accident had. happened uh that incident and. essentially if the uh aircraft is flying. about 200t or below, it gets hit, it. goes in head first, right? um it just. tips forward and uh essentially it was a.

very very complex space. Obviously. there's a lot of stuff on the Hercules. that needed. securing and we had to account for the. people on board and um that that's quite. a task right and you know sadly there's. families involved and all those people. are related to families um so I won't go. into the details about exactly what we. had to do in order to account for them. but I remember a US call sign a CER call. sign responding to the call ourselves at. that point we had secured the site we.

were just looking at it like where do we. start, you know? And we did locate one. person. Um, but the rest there's really. no sign of what we were supposed to do. next. It's beyond our remit of like how. you do this. Uh when the US call sign, sees our call. sign turned up, you know, it was. just they turned up and said, "Look, you. know, you get on with accounting for. your people and securing your equipment.

and we will get on with working out how. we clear this site up." And I remember. they turned up with equipment. I've got. memories of them putting on um you know. like dry suits to get into the. waterfield ditch. Oh, even as they're. jagged metal in there. Uh, and you know, I do remember some burning and things. like that. And um, you know, with their. help, we got back in front of what was. really really perplexing problem that.

does stay with you. You know, it's like. so when you you you were picking up. sending off and saying look how how much. more you know that's a a really sort of. tough experience especially you know a. lot of us were quite young and that's. the first time I saw sort of events like. that happen. How many people were on. board of that? So I think it was 10. I. think it was 10. We believed it was more. at the time but it was 10. And as you. can imagine, you know, if you're sat.

near the bulkhead of the. aircraft, it's it's gone straight in in. its nose. And in fact, we can find. anything that resembled a nose of an. aircraft. You know, almost like it. buried itself. Um, so did you find the. bodies? Only one, but we had to account for. everyone, which we did, you know. So that's a tough experience. But you know again when I'm telling. these stories I'm absolutely completely.

conscious that those people are members. of families. You know they're in um. relationships. That's really it's. something that's always stayed with me. as I've gone through this job. the. impact is more keenly felt. um there and you know I always sort of. have that consciously in my mindset you. know and that was a very very tough. night you know we were we came off I. remember we stayed out there for it was. into daylight and it became too insecure.

too uncertain. um so we lifted off having accomplished. that we had to account for people which. we did and we had to secure all of the. immediate very important equipment we. came off and we left most lot of the. wreckage there and I think I remember we. coming off the ground cuz it was very. likely we were going to start getting. morted at the site. They picked up a lot. of activity and coms that they kind of. sort of getting themselves together to. make it a real problem for us. And you. have sort of options there. You can. either call in more air and you know so.

I think the decision was hey have we. done enough here you know do we have to. stay here? Um and the the answer was no. So we lifted off and then we did return. to the site. I can't remember how much. longer it may have been the next day and. by that time they gathered up all of the. the the metal cuz it was obviously. valuable and piled it in piles but at. that point you're looking at sort of. useless metal towards people. Um so that. was kind of the event and that really. was the seinal thing of that tour.

There's lots of other kind of operations. and activity got we got on but that was. a really really significant one that. stuck with me for quite a while you know. um it you know highlights the complexity. of these jobs no one expected that bit. and I think as I go through all of this. you know all of the operations you just. roll we weren't as busy on that tour as. we was on subsequent tours but the. numbers were absolutely huge and you're. just rolling r-rolling r-rolling all the. time and hardly any of is sticking out.

You know, it's when something like an. aircraft get shot down and you have to. respond to that and you're keenly aware. of like those people that were killed. were members of people's families. And. that really really highlights it to you. that there is a big cost to this, you. know, and no one expects to lose. aircraft, but they do, you know, and uh. we aren't the only ones to do it. and. when it happens it's you know large.

numbers. So um yeah I mean that's one of. the seinal points in my career was. responding to that as quite a young uh. member of special forces and that was. what we're asked to do. So we did it. man. What other kind of operations were. you guys doing? So, as a range, it still. really hadn't sort of tied it up into. the first one was former regime. elements. Um, none of whom, you know,

there was I don't remember any exchanges. of fire in all of that. The second one. was a a greater myriad of operations. Again, none of them particularly stick. out, but they were tasked operations. against buildings of known people that. were started to take part in. insurgencies. There was some AQ linked. things, but we we hadn't really found a. proper form and function at that point. And I remember the country being.

dangerous, but it wasn't we could go out. during the day, you know, and by that. time we had got armored vehicles. Um, and I think, uh, we. were, you know, we were using, yeah, we're using our own helicopters by that. point. So, we had a found form and. function, but it hadn't really. entrenched into a a. a program of operations as such. And um. the the networks weren't clear to us. either.

And that was that was all right around. 2003 time frame. Um yeah, so these tours used to come. around quite quickly. The first one. would have been 2003. The second one. 2004. Third one 2005 crossing into six. Was it 06 into 7? That's 05 into 06. But. that's when we were sharing. uh the theater between us. So the SCS.

and SPS were r-rolling between us and. then they started saying okay we'll. appropriate regions um because this is. now going to be a you know a task that. is going to go on for years. um and by that point we uh made our. tours longer um I think in order to suit. the other parts of the operational role. so we weren't taking risks against them. and so they became six month tours by. the third for.

and in. 2004 you lost your mother. Um yes. So I still try and organize it. out my head and I have to look at the. dates on the on the gravestone uh to. appropriate and again it's a kind of. muddle as to what organization of these. these tours I did eight eight or up. tours 2003 to. 2014 but it happened just before the. second tour. Um it must been the second.

tour and I was standing in the camp and. um I received a phone call to come up to. the squadron uh block. headquarters. Um and I kind of knew that. something was up. I was either going to. get sent away on something which was. exciting or there was something wrong. And as I walked into the squadron block. I could immediately tell something was. was up. So, I went into the office and you know. when you look at someone's face, you can.

see that it's really whatever you're. about to be told is pretty awful. And. they said that uh my mom had been hit by. a car in a car accident. She's very very. severely injured. So, when someone uses. those words, you kind of know what this. is leading to. Um but what happened. next? And I can't remember a thing. You. know, when you get told news like that, you know, I think your head just goes on. fire. very very confused. I had a car. waiting outside and I was led to the.

car. I got took down to HLZ on our camp. and I got lifted out on the reserve. helicopter for the teams that are on. standby to. respond. My mom was declared dead whilst. I was in the air. Um and I was kind of. phoning um my brother and my dad to see. they had already got to the hospital and. I basically got dropped onto a village. cricket pitch um to a waiting uh police.

vehicle with blue lights and they. thought they were going to pick up. something really someone really. important and got an extremely upset SAS. trooper. They raced me to the hospital. I went and I remember saw um my brother, my dad on the ramp and I knew that life. was not going to be the same. again. So I went in saw my mom's body. and you can see exactly what happened.

and you know I actually did a further. investigation into her death because the. police kind of sort of um got some. details wrong. not it made any. difference. But I remember looking at my. dad and I was just like, "Wow, you know, this is this is going to change. everything." Um, he was utterly. distraught as you would. be. Didn't make any sense to him. Uh, the car that hit my mom had about, you. know, between 7 and 13 seconds to see.

what was happening. My mom had um, uh, dropped something in the road and it. just hit her and she'd gone underneath. the car. Oh man. And I had um really. really severe injuries, head injuries, compound fracture of the feur. Um. massive breaks all over, right? And. actually I'm very very pleased that. there was no Hems team like special. emergency team that could have come to. her aid cuz her Glasgoma scale was four. out of 15. It was a massive massive head.

injury around the occipital area. big pools of blood in the road. Um. because it was quite a small car, so she. got caught underneath it and rolled. under. And the final piece to the actual. incident itself is that the lady who had. hit her was 80 years old and she knew. her and she my mom used to buy eggs off. her. So I know the situation intensely.

obviously cuz we looked at the police. investigation. and we looked at how on. earth we're going to manage my father, you know, he was utterly destroyed. He. just shouted at my mom. They'd been. married for decades and decades and. decades. And um he shouted out the door. She had shouted and said, "Look, I'm. just off to the butchers." So he used my. mom used to run a very very small um. beef farm herd. That was her passion, right? And it was all really really. small enterprise and there was a. butchers uh in a nearby village that she.

chose to to manage the meat at. And. that's what was happening what she was. doing at the time. She said, "I'm just. off to see you know how we're doing with. this." She tripped into the road. carrying trays and was picking up things. to put back in the. trays. So, you know, of course, this. makes no sense. This is an utterly. tragic accident. This isn't a case of. whatever the reason the woman did not. see. There is a a concept of looking.

without seeing um in in there, you know, that she may have seen and and never. took into account what had happened, but. to my dad, this. was like too much. It's like something. he was never going to get over ever. And. at the age that it happened, which I. think he was in his 60s, he's very quite. really healthy, really good. You know, I. remember chatting with my brother and I. said, "I've got to deploy." Um so,

um what should we do? Right? And we made. that decision at the time that we're. going to both stay doing our jobs. made. a decision, a conscious decision that. living with my father during that time. was not going to make a difference to. the the levels of grief he had and the. level mo most of all why on earth how. how could this have happened you know. and you couldn't resolve it for him and. I actually went and investigated my. mom's death myself um and I've I know.

the details extremely well in order to. try and provide some sort of closure to. explain that you know there wasn't going. to be a prosecution. No one can, you know, and actually it's. just a tragic, tragic accident. This. lady that hit her, it just destroyed her. life as you can. imagine. Especially just cuz she knew my. mom. So when I in um I was in the. hospital, me and my brother had started. working out, okay, what we got to do. My.

brother helped my father with adjusting. their um arrangements. Um and my father. started living alone. He didn't he lives. lived live lived in the house. We had a. couple of dogs and essentially I think. he went walking, he went traveling quite. a bit. Um and he really was just trying. to attend to himself, but we could see. that he was just hollowed out. Like, you. know, it's. um he was going to struggle for the rest. of his life. And the physiological. impact of that grief was really really.

dangerous to him. And there was nothing. that anyone could do about that because. if no one can explain why or how that. happens, that's. unresolvable. So anyway, I deployed um I. remember coming. back. Um it's quite a few years actually and I. can't remember it's that particular tour. that I came back with. alipcia and again it's now now what I.

know about this is that regulated stress. but what was interesting I was working. all the way through that tour and I. remember talking to my dad on the phone. which is really unusual my dad didn't do. the phone that much but he did it more. after my mom's death but you know it. wasn't like routine all the time it just. wasn't wasn't like that but he would. check in and um I did a lot of you know. when I came back I made a point of going. to see him and he used to come and see. me at home and in that period of time.

um uh I sort of saw how he was living. and he was living uh he you know he was. just whe is it a generational thing I. don't know but he could barely use the. washing machine you know he and he used. to describe gave his darkest hour. And I. remember I was I'm special forces. trained medic and part of what we do is. we learn off uh the hospital experts. I. remember driving home from hospital one. morning. So he used to describe this.

moment. So I thought I'll get home early. cuz I was working in London. So I went. back uh home to kind of try and have a. cup of tea with him, cheer up with him. I remember walking into the kitchen. It. was really quite early. I remember it. was just getting light. It was about. sort of 5:30 or something like that and. he was dressed in his pajamas. Um, and. he was just kind of I walked into the. kitchen and it it was almost like I. wasn't there. He was just turned around. and he started talking to me as though.

he assumed I was going to be there or. not, you know, and I was trying to. surprise him and he was just going, I. just don't understand how this could. happen. So um so he used to describe this period. this darkest hour and it's when he got. uh got up um and that's when he used to. have a cup of tea with my. mom and uh one morning um in in this. period as. well. I think I've got this right. No,

that was later. So. um my father got up one morning. He was. due to actually come and see my brother. It was 23rd of December, one year later. So almost 1 year to a month from when it. had happened. And you imagine around. Christmas when you're used to being with. someone and I think it was just loaded. up and loaded up and loaded up on him. And uh he got up one morning at exactly. that time when he would be going. downstairs to have a cup of tea.

He had a massive heart attack and we. hadn't spoken to him for two days. Um, so I was at home uh and I rang my. brother and said, "Hey, have you heard. from dad?" Um, I hadn't spoke to him for. a couple of days, but he's due to be. coming to see you for Christmas. And he. said, "I haven't heard from anyway." And. a lady who held keys to our house, uh, went in and she found him and he' had a. massive heart attack and it fell over. His head had gone through the wall. It's. quite a sort of plaster board wall.

And that's exactly what happened, right? Just overcome with physical grief. And I. believe uh what he what actually killed. him was something called tacatuba. cardiomopathy. When you're in a. unrelenting chronic loop of stress, the. release of cortisol and. epide and no one really understands. stuns muscles in your heart. And the. reason it's called taco suba.

cardiomophy because it was found in the. 80s in Japan and someone had died and. they done a postmortem in time and found. that the heart the left ventricle had. gone out of shape and uh taco suba tuba. it means octopus trap so adopted that. and of course in most cases you know. when you've got that level of grief that. level of shock you have central heart. pain I believe that's that thing that's.

that adrenaline epinephrine whatever it. is is stunning those muscles one of. those or number sets of those 18. autonomic muscles that govern your heart. because it goes slightly out of shape it. leaves it it loses its integrity with. blood pressure and other harmonies. within your. physiology and in most cases that's not. dangerous right so in people that have. no heart conditions whatever it just. goes back to a normal shape at the point. where the point of chronic stress had. gone but with my had. He was in his loop.

every morning just crushing. um period of stress that he was um. undergoing and because of his age which. I think he was late 60s at the time he. died you know he was just slightly more. vulnerable and I absolutely believe in. the postmortm you know the tox. toxicology reports there was nothing. that was could explain for the fact he'd. had a a massive heart attack is very. healthy. He's very fit. Um he's an. intelligent man. You know, he ate, you.

know, one of the things I looked at in. the fridge, I was seeing what he's. eating. He had mackerel and cold fish, um. tomatoes, uh sort of various good diet, but absolute staple and things he didn't. need to. cook. So, I think he was living in this. sort of period. Um and you know I don't. think um either me or my brother living. with him during that period would have. changed that outcome at all because.

nothing anyone could have done for him. at that point would have prevented him. from having that moment that extreme. moment of vulnerability uh first thing. in the morning and again you know what. I'm so involved in now I'm really really. interested in the physical impacts of. grief you know professionally related. stress so Um that was you know how my. parents were connected to that. I. continued working all along and the. people were managing me you know first. of all how I mean hold on so you lost.

your mom and your dad in a span of a. year and a month. Yeah. 13 months. Yeah. But if you had anything to say to them. right now what would you say? Sometimes when it comes to spending. money, it's out of sight and out of. mind. That daily coffee habit, those. streaming subscriptions, they add up. quick. Rocket Money helps you spot those.

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I don't know what I would say to them. you know I just say hello you know it's. like I look at that period it's all. connected but it started with an. accident like no one could predict and. that could happen to anyone you know. when we're talking I sitting down and. talking to my had and trying to explain. that there was no closure. There was. never going to be an explanation that. was going to satisfy him. You know, he. was, you know, so I don't know what I. would say to them now. But, you know, if.

I could see them again, um, and, uh, a. lot of people ask me about, you know, who they were. They're very special. people, then most people are special. people. Um, but, you know, I don't think. I'd tangle over what I'd say to them at. all. you know, you know, they were great. people and, you know, the last chat I. had with my dad um was on um my sofa at. home and um very connected to him. Um. but it wasn't like um you know, he.

didn't lean on people at all, you know, he and he was. very he wanted to understand everything. So I think he was always going to. struggle with what had happened. Um I. don't know whether he had any regrets. over it. I I mean I genuinely I don't. know what I would say to them. Um you. know they both people I absolutely. loved. Um my mom I was very close to um.

just because of the nature of what we. did. Um but equally uh connected to my. dad and a different type of closeness. um hugely admired him and and again you. look at what he did through his life. making the opportunities for me and my. brother working extraordinarily hard you. know he had a business that um went bust. um when the market just you know there. was no saving it and I remember him. saying and he was a really really he he.

what he really stuck out as someone who. was very strong and good um and he. weren't necessarily um easy to deal with. at times, you know, cuz he was very he. knew exactly what he thought was, you. know, right to do. I remember his his. biggest entanglement over the business. and the fact that it couldn't be saved. is the fact that he had employees, people that had worked in the joinery. works for so. long. So, that was the sort of man he. was. Um, I remember, you know, seeing.

him during that year. Uh, he he started. doing a lot of walking. So, he said, "Oh, what do you think?" uh I should get. for walking boots. I also remember him. having a Nokia 2210 phone. He'd never. had a mobile before and we now said, "Look, you have to have a mobile. We. need to be able to talk to you. We need. to understand that you're right." Um he. wasn't used to taking calls. He didn't, you know, if it wasn't working, he. wasn't, you know, making phones uh phone.

calls to people. So trying to impress. upon him that he needed to answer this, you know, and um it was all those things. I think over the board life was an. impossible challenge for him. Um after. my mom was killed, man. How did you overcome that? Well, I mean it's whether those two were. linked or not, you know, a lot of other. things were happening at the time within. my family. Um those were absolute seinal.

points in my life and I talk about this. in a very. very you know that's not unusual. actually there's lots of people that. have these tragedies happen to them. frank thank thankfully that is not. frequently the way but you know I look. at other people's circumstances and. they're caring for elderly parents and. some of them you know that's very very. tough period and I think you know. intuitively I saw my way through it and. you can see the response my body had. I've still got alipcia now and you know.

you can see that I'm under stress now. because it comes back and I've just got. it in patches here and as I understand. alipcia is an autoimmune response to to. link to stress so you can see that my. body was really sort of struggling under. the strain to to kind of re reorientate. itself back but it was doing that you. know and I actually got beyond the. trauma of that happening I don't know. when now it definitely had a massive. impact on me huge impact and always say. it like what happened with my mom and.

subsequently to my dad. But I see, you. know, the dad um what happened to my dad. is less of a shocking trauma because it. was almost connected. We didn't expect. that to happen. We were shocked when we. were told it, but it made sense. And so what happened with my mom, you. know, was actually it will always be. tragic and arguably it's going to be. sad, but it's not necessarily traumatic. for the rest of time. And I think it's.

the first and again I only understand. this by looking back on it now. Your. body's actually quite powerful in. getting yourself through these traumatic. periods. Uh and I think, you know, I. went back to work and I was given the. option not to. You know, everyone. managed me. the levels of leadership I. saw at that point in the management of. me I'll never forget you know and the. people I was working to uh in my. squadron incredible people right you. know and they were saying it's your. choice you know and I was saying that. this is the grown-up world of SF you.

know it's like you know you tell us what. you need it's your choice and I said no. no I can't remember if it was day one. but it was very soon after if it wasn't. day one but I was on the tour and did. the whole. tour but I hugely appreciated how they. managed me especially. You know, you. look at the response that they gave me. to get me to that hospital. Actually, everyone knew that those injuries were. fatal. I should already been intubated. You know, that there was really no difference. other than shaving off tens of minutes.

by using a helicopter by versus, you. know, if they'd asked the police, they'd. have blue lighted me there. You know, we. get tremendous amounts of support from. people when we've got times of need. And. I've always someone took a decision to. use that helicopter that was the reserve. helicopter. There's an element of risk. there. They looked to my situation and. time of need and I've always been hugely. appreciative of it ever since. I think. it's a one of the finest examples of.

leadership you can ever. show. And actually, you know, they know, you know, all of us collectively apart. from me knew that wasn't actually going. to change the outcome at all. But they. got me back to my father and my. brother's side the soonest they possibly. could and there wasn't ever anything and. not not a minute could have been shaved. off it more you know and that really. really stuck with him and I think how I. was managed through that period has been. absolutely fundamental to remaining.

through it you know and you know you. come out sort of bruised of course you. do right you come out um thing but you. know I didn't see the point missing. work. Um, not when it, you know, I had. these chats with my brother. I think. that's very very fundamental. And then. more lately, you know, we lost more. people, you know. So, the godfather to. my uh the um was killed. Um, and then, you know, over the time, and I've always. been surprised how few people close to. me I've lost, but over the time you.

realize they have. So, a nextdoor. neighbor was killed. Um, a godfather was. killed. Um you know my next door. neighbor was very very badly injured and. you look over the period of time this. happened. Um so yeah what happened to my. parents was. ext you know there was really really big. big challenges in it. It was a building. company. There were open messes claims related to.

use of asbestos. And of course, no one. can prove. um the uh that there was insurance in. place and no one can prove the veracity. of the claims, you know, and two of the. claims actually they worked days in the. company, but one particular very very. sad case. Someone worked there for a. quite considerable period of time. And I. remember looking at because we inherited. these these cases me and my brother. because we were def. facto now become inheritants of of all.

this all these complicated businesses. around the build business. So we had all. that going in the background. I. investigated my mom's death myself. because the police got it wrong. And it. wasn't actually the details of where she. had been hit and how far she had been. rolled down the road, but it was enough. for my dad to really just go into almost. like a griefstricken frenzy over it. They've got it wrong. Why could that how. could they ever? So I went and did it. myself and I explained how it happened. and I said, "Look, just cuz they've. marked it here rather than here, it just.

it doesn't change anything." So we're. doing a lot of work around that. I ended. up managing one of the messes cases. assessed and it was you know absolutely. tragic consequence where do you know a. lot about asbestosled mephloma shards go. into the lung and then they activate. about sort of 20 years later and they. get sharp it's a really really horrible. tragic situation you know and whether. there was safety or not knowing who my. dad was he ran the company I would. almost be certain that there was.

whatever it was at the time was. available to use but that wasn't the. point, you know, they would have always. had insurance and that's what insurance. was there for. But we could not could. not prove. uh who had the. insurance. And I remember dealing with. this and we worked out which company it. was. It was after 16 buyouts of one. particular company, but they were just. baring us. They're saying, "No, no, you. can't prove it. You haven't got a policy. document, blah, blah, blah. We found. scraps and we there's a place in Norolk.

where they hold miles and miles of old. paperwork of insurance. We're getting. people to go through this because the. levels of of money, you know, compensation that was due to this person. 100% and three times that should have. been given to his surviving widow. Uh. cuz he actually died during that that I. remember it was under a year but it was. nearly a year of of dealing with this. And I remember at the point where me and. my brother had finally kind of just. found a portion of the policy number or.

we found enough to say we know it's you. right and uh they literally over one. phone call said. okay leave this with us it's no longer. your business you know and if we had had. if that had gone to arbitrary and it. would definitely have been ruled in. favor of melium cases and I absolutely. am complete supporter of that right you. know what's the point in looking back. through time and going Did you have. access to safety equipment or not? You. know, extraordinary thing to to try and.

address when you're doing that. The. concept was we knew insurance was in. place. It was a responsible business. Mhm. You know, so we inherited a lot of. that and it was I remember at the time. it was really really stressful. Really. stressful. We're doing all our jobs all. the time. But fun you, you know, you. instinctively pick your way through it, you know. And um I do remember at a time. chat with my brother and you know if. we'd had to kind of sort of find the. money for that atmosphere in case we'. both lost our houses know and uh there.

lots of people around us would have been. hugely impacted by that. Um so there. were real real challenges that I even. have to just sort of remind myself of. now of what was going on and what were. the consequences of those untimely. deaths. You know, and everyone looks in. their lives and they think they can. picture when they'll die. They think. they can get ready for it and make good. plans. And all very very often it.

doesn't work out like that at all. Man, what a tough what a tough girl, man. Yeah. I It's you know, I reflect back on. it healthfully now. you know, I. understand it as a process, you know, and you know, I also recognize that this. is life and this happens to lots of. people in different ways and um I'm. deeply thankful for who my parents.

were. You know, they're incredibly. special people. They left an amazing. legacy. Um and you know, for for for. what we had is more than enough to be. grateful for. you know the way it. happened I just simply don't have any. regrets over it you know it's just. that's what happened and I think you. know it's such an important aspect of. life is this acceptance that these. things will happen you know and you will.

go through a period where you'll have to. come to terms with it that's a normal. process you know but you are really you. know I think back on how special my mom. and my dad. in particular. I spent tons of time with. my mom and you can think back and I read. through her postmortm reports. I have to. understand it. I had to understand it to. adequately deal with my dad, you know, and I still um look at those reports. now. Um and you know, I had to remind.

myself um of that because I'm coming. here and it's such a seinal point uh of. my life. you know, my life does not make. sense if I can't explain that, you know, and uh I read through those reports, you. know, and you look at it and you just. think, "Oh my goodness," you know, but. then I've worked as a medic and I've. seen this happen to people's families. and I've seen the consequences of it and. I've, you know, I've got friends who. emergency responders in the UK. Uh, one's.

um a uh cardiac specialist, you know, CPR and recovery of people from heart. attacks. Um, and it happens in the. street, but no one's present to. pronounce death and um I can't I don't. know understand their particular. mechanism. She said one of these sort of. quirks with COVID is people go into. cardiac arrest, they neither go down or. nor do they and you know as an expert. they're never coming back. So they're. stuck and you know all too often they're.

surrounded by their families and they're. witnessing this tremendously traumatic. event and this person is having to. manage this and doing it day after day. after day you know and internally they. have to manage the reality the knowledge. that they know this is already a death. Yeah. But these people surrounding them. they are watching it and they are hoping. that it's. alive. And um I think this is a. intricate pattern in life in life that. we have to kind of sort of. accept like these things do happen and.

we all hope that our loved ones are. going to be safe and secure. But you. know and again I remind it I had an. interesting chat just recently is you. could go into any doctor's tomorrow and. find out about a diagnosis that will. bring your life to an end. tomorrow. Something's been lurking. within you've not detected. there's not. anything you've done wrong, you know, and you'll try and make sense of it, but. it won't. And so my mom very much sits. in that.

bracket now. There's actually no reason. to try and make sense of it. No, it's a. particular story. The fact that that. lady knew her. She used to buy eggs from. her. you know that is if you can't get a. story about how life can be that that is. as stark as that you know and it's. really interesting you know because when. I was speaking to my father about it you. know I was saying this lady's 80 I think. she was 80 at the time like it has.

ruined her life. irreversibly like this is a tragic. tragic accident. um so you know managing was very very. tough. I came back with. alipcia. It's. like that it's still there. It's never. gone. I can see it's like a little radar. now to when life is becoming quite tight. and complicated and I always it comes. back. Um it doesn't bother me, but it's.

a mark that you'll wear. Mhm. Seemingly. for the rest of my life. Mhm. Um, you. know, so and again when that's put. against and overloaded with the related. professional stress, I used to call some. elements of what we do pager syndrome. You know, you're always on call in some. way or form. When you're out in. operations, you're constantly. re-rolling, re-rolling, re-rolling, re-rolling, re-rolling. As soon as. you're back, we talked about that story. about supporting a a team out in Ramadi,

immediately backing out again. Now I. don't think that was unique in us you. know lots of other units did it as well. but the tempo was extraordinary at times. you know 182 operations on third tour in. 6 months it's just extraordinary. um in all of these times they're complex. operations you know you don't know what. you're going on half the time you've got. a a good idea of the broad structure of. the intelligence but the buildings.

change there's aspects that you haven't. seen you know the ultimate in. adaptability that you need to have in. order to do that. When things aren't. going to work out the way you want them, you have to just take a deep breath and. accept they aren't the way you want. them. Um, when you're sitting on the. back end of a charge cuz you can't get. around a corner and you've run out of. detonators with a particular length, you. know, it's that deep breath, you know, it's going to hurt. And in that. particular instance, one of my friends. um got uh hurt in his uh groin and had.

to uh be kazabacked for that, you know, and you kind of in that situation we. just looking at it, you know, you're. going to set that thing off and it's. going to hurt, right? Uh. so did you go up back to Baghdad after. your father passed? Yes. So yes, I mean. it it just and again and I didn't miss. any operational days you maybe five days. at the beginning who I I cannot remember.

but I did not miss an operational tour. or consciously any days right but I was. being extraordinarily well managed you. know it wasn't like people were telling. me to be there they were saying you tell. us what you can do you know my compass. point. was if Unless I've got an. extraordinarily good reason not to be, I. will I will be there. Do you feel like. you went to work early just. to put yourself back in that environment.

so that you didn't think about the. passing? I don't think I did that as in. I didn't use it in that way, but I. didn't see a good enough reason not to. be there. And that was because I was. talking to my brother. We believed that. there was no changeable outcome for my. dad. you know that it would find its way. whatever the fact that we could be in. the house more you know we had made a. conscious decision to to stay in our job. jobs standing out of our job we couldn't.

afford to do that you know there wasn't. a viable alternative to it and I don't. think the support would have made any. difference so it wasn't like our sort of. finding solace in work it'd be a. extraordinary place to look for solace. in work with that level of overloaded. professional stress that comes with it. But I think I was quite young and I was. really sort of tuned into the fact that, you know, I looked at each one and I. said, you know, do I need to miss it? No, I don't. And so I did. I turned up.

and um continued to do it and I wasn't. wrong. You know, I was reported on all. the way through that. Um you know, I. make a comment about decorations, accommodations, people. You know, I've. seen people do extraordinary. um brave things that they've never been. written up for. But in those periods of. time, you've done 19 operations. Obviously, you're going to get written. up for certain actions. If you haven't. come across something extraordinary at. certain time, then you would be in in a.

highly unusual position for that. operational exposure. So, you do get. written up for stuff and I receive. commendations for stuff I was doing on. those tours. um which is all that all that is to me. is a validation that I was doing my job. So it wasn't like I was sort of running. at a deficit but what you know I was. really really conscious of is that was. building up inside me right and that. stress was starting to load up and load. up and load up and load up. It doesn't. necessarily happen when you're there but.

it will come in the future. Mhm. What. are some of the what are some of the. operations that you're a part of that. really stick out in your. career? So, I mean it's the stuff that on the. front line cuz they were different, you. know, when we were r-rolling and going. on to compounds and constantly. constantly constantly and none of that. stuck out as abnormal. You know, every. so often there was an engagement here in. a corridor, whatever. But none of it.

really really sort of resonated. particularly with me. Living on a front. line um in a small team really really. stuck out. There is a operation I was. involved in. I can't say the place of. it, but um a large device was set off in. an engagement in the breach point. Uh. well, they didn't use an explosive. charge in the end, but it set off a very. large trinone trioxide device that ended. up with a house falling on the injured. who had been used in the engagement.

These are I mean I mean that's a good. one to talk about the numbers in that. you know 28 people went out the door as. I remember it there were 13 left. standing by the end of it. When these. special forces operations get complex. they get extremely complex. 28 of you. guys went out and 13 no. So this was a. partner force that we were supporting. So I was about 25 foot away from the. tristone trip but around two corners and. up some stairs. So all I did was get.

covered in dust, but it uh uh two people. had been shot in the head in the initial. engagement and a number had picked up. other injuries from the device going. off. But essentially, we were still. trying to work out how we were to. extricate them from that breach point. position without exposing ourselves to. further fire from this this this um. building that was twotory. and they had. survived in uh the second story because. I was 25 foot away. No reason they.

hadn't. And actually the fire went on. for over two hours after that. Um but. essentially four stories of half the. house fell on top of the wounded burying. it. And some of the injuries were like. earthquake injuries when we did finally. recover them. And the trouble is, and. I've done a lot of sort of days in urban. areas that have been partially. destroyed. And what wouldn't be. immediately obvious to people is when. you're operating in an area where. buildings have fall down, it acts like. um camouflaged material, right? There's.

nothing ordered or patterned in which. your eye can make sense of. So you don't. know where you're going to get shot at. from next, you know, and actually when. it's a doorway or where it's a window, you can see see when something breaks. it, you know, and you can take a. position or you could be much more safe. in how you're going about it. And for. the next few hours, we had to try and. stop these people from breaking out cuz. the situation was going to get a lot lot. worse. They're heavily armed with um uh. PKM type machine guns. Uh one had a mini.

uh and they had a large store of. explosive devices that we found out. later. Um but somehow we had to. extricate and um another badge member. that I was with, he went and rescued. someone from the access point at breach. point, which is incredibly brave thing. to do. And uh the person they rescued. took a bit of frag through it partially. severed their spinal column. So he had. to learn to walk again. Um but he and so. the people we could get out we could get.

out. There was one personal member I. kept going down and listening over the. wall and obviously he'd been buried just. right by the breach point and he was. screaming but we couldn't you know we. were trying to access it together to say. how how are we going to get this guy. out? you know, completely. buried without exposing ourselves to the. fire that is coming out there. It's. pretty random at that point, but it went. on for 2 hours after that. And uh and. essentially he stopped screaming at a.

certain point and we made a decision to. say, "Okay, well, you know, this. outcome's really, really tough. We don't. think it's worth taking the risk. anymore." We completely overloaded the. med medevac chain. you know, people were. treating themselves in the street. Um. the you know, we all I put out um um you. know, edicts as such. They weren't. orders, you know, I wasn't in command. this, but we were helping support them.

in this very very complex situation. And. I'd said to them, you're not take any. more casualties. You know, must must not. take any more casualties. You know, there were people that just tremendously. brave. I remember one that had been shot. in the chest. No one really realized and. it was some time later until he just. fell over backwards and you just like. wow you didn't no one even picked up on. the fact he'd been shot and some of the. injuries these people would take on. incredibly incredibly brave people and. the people that the person we left.

buried and uh and we made a conscious. decision to not try and get him out. because he was completely buried and. risk more casualties. Um he turned out. to be alive. you know, it was about 3 or. 4 hours later and it took 40 minutes to. dig him out. Um, but when they did get. him out, he was alive, but he had. absolutely horrible um injuries. He'd. already had horrible injuries, but you. know, there were also quite crush. injuries, injuries associated to. earthquake type.

injuries. And it's sort of jobs like. that, they come up. And I remember. thinking at the time when the large. explosion went off, you're like, "Okay, we're still in this." But as soon as the. house falls down, it's like the aircraft. gets shot out of the sky. It's. unbelievable complexity is attached to. it. I think, you know, I'm remembering. the center point of just saying, "Okay, well, this is going to take a long time. to get out of now." We have to control. the situation. You know, it's not like. you can just get up and leave. You have.

to control it. You have to contain. everyone to the house so the threat. isn't going to get worse and bit by bit. unpick it. What you're left with is a. ton of decisions you could question. afterwards. Say should we or shouldn't. we? But that's not the right process to. go along because how you went about it. was bit by bit step way down the path. finding a way through that complexity. that that in that particular instance. it's how on earth do we guarantee.

there's no more threat from that. building by assuring those people they. would they were injured themselves by. the explosive blast going off you know. and trying to clear into a destroyed. building is very very difficult you Um. and so we were trying to make good. conscious professional decisions based. upon what we needed to do and trying to. implore you know the people that are. injured trying to employ them that were. close friends of them. You know they. these are people that we looked after.

and mentored incredibly closely and. trying to get them not to take massive. risks like stupid risk in order to do. something that we we we looked at and. said it's not going to be successful. you will not get them out. And it's, you. know, a testament to like when it when. things get that that tough, you know, people step up. The training is. important, but you see the bravery and. the strength of these people and how. they step up. Um, so, you know, it's.

it's it's operations like that that. really really stick with me. And in that. particular instance, you know, I came. off the. ground, it's dark really early morning. when we've been there. We' gone on to. the ground about sort of 12:00 the the. previous day, implored for nighttime, but for some reason, we weren't given. the reasons why. They said, "Look, please can you do it during the day? You. can't wait." Obviously, there was uh.

ongoing threat from these people. uh. they'd already committed attack against. um some. police and I remember going home and. sitting in my flat and just staring out. just the exhaustion you feel you know. and I felt it so many times obviously. been explosive loads of explosive blasts. you've been run out of water you know. things that you thought were going to. take a day of took two days you know. there's all sorts of reasons you get. back you feel completely hollowed out.

you know you literally are just sitting. there taking it all in. And I always. found I'd just sort of press play on the. music. In that particular instance, I. had to write someone a letter to. explain, oh man, don't listen to the. noise. This is what happened. And you. can be proud of these people cuz what I. did is I'm unbelievably brave. And then. as soon as I had a plan to deliver that. letter, I went straight to the hospital. and I seen the.

guys and everyone involved in that would. question, what did I do? Did I do the. right thing? Could I have done that? As. soon as I walked into the hospital and I. saw their faces, it was like a friend. has come to see them like made the. effort to go there. And it is hard when. you're facing up with people, you know, you're like you're looking at them, you're like, "Wow." you know, you got. injured and now some of them very very. seriously. Some of the brakes uh there.

was uh one guy stood by the wall when. the bl the wall blew out and uh a block. went straight into his his lower femur. and the brake was just astonishing. It. was like I remember looking at and just. going, "Wow." When you see these people. and they're very very badly injured, he's never going to walk properly again. There's no way you can fix a fracture. that big sensibly. um you know and they're still pleased to. see you. It's just like wow okay we are. in this together you know and people.

won't judge you overly as long as you. are all the time putting the effort the. attention and support into people that. when they need it and it's exactly what. happened to me if you think about what. happened around my mom people give me. the support and my absolute hour need. and I didn't even know how like critical. that need was in that particular. position him. He just had to find a way. out for these people. Yeah. Which meant. handing off that, you know, trying to.

persuade them that they weren't getting. going to get the job done at that point, you know, hand it off. And you know a. lot lot of the younger soldiers they're. very very much driven by a sense of. duty sense of. proof and trying to sort of really. explain to them you've already done your. job here and you've done an immense job. like we've suffered and as has happened. these devices do go off we don't plan to.

be here when they. do you know in that respect our advice. has always can do this at night. You. know, we always like surprise. We always. like to be quiet in what we do. It's. inbuilt into. us. Um but when you're forced to go, you're forced to go, right? You know, and you may not know the full picture. uh in which case we didn't you know I. found out later about that particular. instant that they had planned uh two um.

further very very large attacks uh all. against kind of sort of key aspects of. the. institution and they had large stores of. IEDs that were uncovered as well and so. you know and I come across a lot of. these people and they're very very. dangerous you know when they're turned. they're extremely dangerous um and some. of those countries in in the Middle East. have got very very complex. counterterrorism threats domestically. Um and you know you have a certain pride.

of serving alongside them cuz actually. when I look at people we're all human. beings faced with different but. relatively the same aspects of problems. Safety is not the same as security. You. know to keep security you have to be. prepared to leave. You know, and if you. hug, you hold on to safety too much, the. security goes. You know, these. institutions, these units, these. services that do this job are extremely.

important, extremely precious, and they. protect security, not. safety. I. mean, 19 deployments. Yeah. You saw a lot. Yeah. I mean, the exposure is massive, right? And it's hugely varied. Um, I was. a breach of three of them, you.

know. It's it's Yeah, it it's a lot, but. that's because of the roles I took. So a. lot of the time, you know, I got trained. as a JTAC uh early and uh a lot of those. deployments were trained as a J-tack or. because I had that specialist. specialization in airspace management. and understanding of assets and. weaponry. I'll go and support other. people in what they did, you know. So a. lot of a lot of the time and again it's.

what's great about being in the unit is. you spend a lot of the time on your own. or supporting or going towards a country. to kind of try and understand a hostage. rescue. Um some of the key key areas of. what I did were unsupported and actually. we were just sent to understand the. situation because lots of people scream. genocide very quickly. Right. It's one. of the fastest ways to attract um. countries to come and you know take.

control. So you have to understand it. and when situations are so so unsettled. or so insecure. um you know often we're asked to go in. and understand a situation just to say. look you know this yes this is this is. really grievous or no you know the. threats to national interests are this. you know we we do not see evidence of. there being a genocide or a risk of mass. killings of such sorts and in those. particular situations They probably been.

the most risky of all, you know, and in. those situations, you're largely. unsupported. You're surrounded by people. you don't, you know, don't trust or. understand, particularly have a huge. amount of faith, but judgment as well. In that particular instance, we're. washing in salt water for about 6 weeks, running out of food regularly, you know, and open battles were going on. constantly, you know, recallless rifles.

like 15t away from you, shooting out. tank barrels, you know, people weren't. even trained to use tanks just blasting. away with tanks and it's just massively. you're getting no sleep, you know. It's. um you'd be lucky if you got 2 hours in. 24, right? Racing against margins, sleeping in locked rooms because you. fear for everyone around you being. warned there's plots to kidnap you. You. know, it's it's it's really.

really a very very tough environment to. remain steady and you know, we've got to. maintain our position here. got to. understand what's going on and give an. accurate thing so people know what to do. in these situations. It's probably those. periods of time that have left the. biggest mark. You know, my time in the. squadron, it was quite comfortable. No, it's like actually I did a a series. of years of different operations. connected all up, you know, and um much.

of the time spent on my own and much of. the time spent in small teams and. bringing people together, you know, when. we needed to do something. Have you ever. done a have you ever done a hostage. rescue? I haven't done a hostage rescue. I've moved forwards to prepare the. ground for one. Um I've not done one. myself. I've probably done some in Iraq, you know, which were kind of sort of. they're not the hostage rescues I think. about hostage rescues I think about. those really really highly critical ones.

done. The insertion is extremely. complicated. Um it's zero sum game. So. I've gone forward and prepared the. ground for those uh particular. operations. I've took part in planning. of numerous but you know and. again hostage rescues do not thankfully. do not happen very often. um because. they were very very difficult operation. to to pull off downstairs. You had. mentioned that you had uh worked with. Delta. Yeah. What were you guys doing?

So it was essentially you know we used. to to share lessons and TTPs techniques, tactics and procedures when we were. mitigating a risk. So if something had. happened on the ground and essentially I. was going over to learn uh an element of. how they do their operations and uh that. particular operation uh was expected to. be a very very tough operation. What had. been seen in the development of the.

target multiple weapons the activities. around the target were were pretty. horrible and so there was an expectancy. it was going to be hostile. Um but it. ended up. um with a a very large um firefight that. went on for hours and hours and hours. five casualties in the first window, trapped in a street with houses. overlooking one another that could fire. down onto the roofs and the street and. um and essentially in the first period.

as I remember it, you know, as people. are taking positions, an adapted mortar. bomb was thrown off the roof and it hit. the the team forward enough. So. essentially then a very very large. weight of fire came down from three. wider firing. points and because it was an urban. target it was very very difficult to. deal with. You know you're not allowed. to use the things that you would use if. you're deployed into rural areas or in. more safe areas. And there were certain. sensitivities about the area people.

living there that made it even more. difficult to bring to bear the things. that you would usually do. And again, you know, I mean, I just tremendously. admired the people that I worked. alongside. They were really, really. professional. And I served um I think we. we were pretty much out for about 8. hours. Um and essentially as we were. approached this target one and. remembering this wasn't my target. I. don't know the details of it, you know, the development of I just know we.

expected it to be complicated and um and. uh and go noisy. But essentially as we come towards the. target about 1k out came through a. checkpoint there was a massive burst of. gunfire in the air which wasn't unusual. let's face it you kind of you expect. that and so everyone was infiltrating on. and that was actually a warning to the. target that people were coming um so. they were waiting in in effectively a. free lane ambush.

um and that was you know problematic get. out and that was in uh 2006 a very very. kinetic tour and uh and actually about 2. years after that I was given an. accommodation which I've always been. hugely grateful for. It takes a lot of. time to write people up um and um um for. that night but it was also what did you. get the accommodation for? Sorry, what. did you get the accommodation for? It. was essentially so s approaching.

um and dealing with an armed uh part of. the the attack and I wasn't the one that. dealt with it. You know, I was. supporting other forces that deal doing. with it, but essentially as they saw it, I put my face put myself in direct face. of the enemy fire um for a period of. time to close on the target building. There was also an access point that was. overlooked that was getting shot at and. uh it was to do with movement across. that as well, you know, and it, you. know, I've got the commendation which I. reread very simply put uh and I just.

really sort of was thankful that people. sort of recognized people in positions. Now, I have. never done anything that I think sticks. out in an extraordinarily professional. way. Right? I've seen people equally. across the length of time that we've. done it on different operations and. different nights do extraordinaryly. brave things. Sometimes they have to and. sometimes they're rescuing people. It's. incredibly brave. Many of the times.

they're not recognized for it. You know, I'm not hung up on commendations and. recognition at all. But when people do. and they make the effort to do it, you. know, it's to me it's notable. They've. gone to a lot of effort to do that. But essentially, you know, through in. particular through Iraq, we're working. very closely aligned with US forces. And. whilst we're, you know, cultured very. differently, we're very much share this. unity in, you know, missions and aims.

And it really really. highlighted the closeness. um of us all. And you know, I was. telling a story. um before about a really great friend of. mine, uh Duncan Slater. He's a W amput. uh and he got injured in Afghanistan but. we both used to work for a company. satellite company actually and we we've. sat together having a wine at night and. I've you know we talked about sort of. the time there was a breach point I. wasn't on this operation for instance. but my neighbor was very badly shot hit.

three times um one when his MVGs and. bounced off head helmet bounced off but. the other one hit his weapon and tracked. up his arm and left him with a really. horrible everything's locked up so. incredibly painful as my neighbor. So. when I used to come out, he used to sit. down and have a coffee with him and uh. at the point where he's wounded, he you. know wanted to walk to the helicopters. losing a huge amount of blood and we. were just talking in general about you.

know experiences with Duncan. And I. didn't realize you know cuz this this. person my neighbor was he he didn't want. to get on the stretch but you could see. how much blood he was losing. he was not. going to make it to the helicopter. So. instead of like having a sort of you. must get on the stretcher or trying to. force him on the stretcher, he just. gently put underneath his arm and took. the weight off him just so he could walk. to the helicopter. There's those moments. of compassion and understanding,

humanity that really sort of sit with. me. And Duncan's story is is pretty. incredible in itself because he's very. special person long before he got. injured, right? you know, he's. incredible guy. But the point of injury, he got injured in a complex ambush in. Afghanistan uh in driving a jackal. So. jackal obviously the problem is the. wheels are back. So you sit forward of. the wheels and a command wire ad got set. off. Um and essentially his rifle went. straight through the rifle's held right. there. Went straight through his arm and.

his legs took an enormous amount of. damage. It got thrown out the. vehicle. Um and then it was a life. saying the ambush was still ongoing as. shooting and you know it had all the you. know what we called the the shooting. ports all the way through the compound. walls and essentially they're trying to. call a medevac in n liner and uh the UK. asset couldn't couldn't respond. um for whatever reasons and a dust off. call sign was on its last day of.

operations uh of its particular tenor. and overheard the nel liner over they. couldn't respond and they went and. picked up Duncan and saved his life. Wow. So. Duncan got off come back to the UK. His. legs were so badly damaged. So they. amputated. uh he's got an incredible story about. talk about it. I saw him just before I. came out here actually and um he's. involved in some of the things I'm.

involved in now. But essentially he was. up at Bale Moral a little bit later and. he knew he had been evacuated medevac by. one of the dust off call signs and uh he. was doing a speaking and there was a. running event around B moral up in. Scotland. He saw a left tenant colonel. from the US Air Force. So he went up to. him and said, "Look, you know, I got. medevact. Would you find out who it. was?" And uh so they swapped details and.

Duncan thought nothing of it. And then. he got an email from the crew chief of. one of the dust off crews. They said, "Look, you know, we were dust off about. that time. One of the dust off call. signs. I c I kept a book of the things. we did so we'll know immediately." He. said, "Uh, who else was on the. helicopter?" And Dunc was like, I was. alone. And he was like, "Oh, this can't. be can't be it. Can't be it." And. obviously Duncan very horribly injured.

his incredibly complex injuries that he. had. So then it really perplexed Duncan. cuz he knew the exact time, the exact. date. So he went back to his unit which. was um one of the other special forces. units and said look what happened when I. got medevaced was there other people on. the on the helicopter they said yeah. there was I think there was two more. lesser wounded people they chose to get. him out the reason this definitely saved. Duncan's lives is to try and move back. even by vehicle would have took over two.

hours from where they were where where. they had the. ambush so um he phoned uh back to the. crew chief and said, "Look, I was wrong. I was there were two other people uh in. uh the in the cab with me." And what's. more, I was singing cuz he was told why. when they put him on a helicopter, they. put ketamine in into him really quickly. and because he's Scottish, very very.

valuably Scottish, he started singing in. Scottish. Apparently pilot looked back. at this Scottish singing coming from the. back of his cab, this relatively. mortally wounded person and it really. was really quite sort of you know things. were very very complicated. So that was. the confirmatory that it was that dust. off course that is we cannot forget this. person who was singing Scottish songs in. in the back of the thing and I just. thought it was an absolute but point.

being is like Duncan went back and he's. met those dust off call signs you know. and he said to him you know he's. thanking them and I think it's a just. yet another example of how closely. aligned these forces have been and how. many lives have been both sides, you. know, but you know, deeply thankful for. support like Dust off when they come and. pull you out of a situation like that, which is essentially still an ongoing.

ambush. It's an incredibly brave thing. to do. And I know what the last day of. tour feels like, right? It's like Friday. the 14th over and over again. You always. think, you know, Christmas is another. one. Big things seem to happen at. Christmas. And I've always wondered. about this, right? You know, we we seem. to have some of the biggest complex. periods of work, loss of helicopters, you know, big problematic problems on. target.

um around Christmas time. And I thought, well, you know, actually there's a. reason for this. There's longer darker. hours. The given the heat is complicated. for aircraft, but also the winter is. very complicated for aircraft as well. And I think the margins for error go up. a lot more in those winter tours and. predominantly through the rotation we. were doing to winter tours a. lot. Um so you. know you know there's rhyme and reason.

in everything if you sort of pin it to. pin pin pin it to to what is the reason. why why does this happen more at this. point of time. Well, you know, people. are in their houses for longer periods. of time during those winter months when. it's dark and it's wet and it's the. infiltration target can be very very. complicated, right? Um, so I guess that. sort of defines me as a person. I always. sort of wondered why and I like to make. sense of things. In 19 deployments.

and 20 years at the. unit, have you ever had to kill anybody? No, I wouldn't answer that. You wouldn't. answer that. Do you have any idea how many missions. you've been on? Well, you. know, I cannot add it up, right? So, the. different variations of types of. missions, but on the third tour, we did. 182. That was at a particular time when. the governance was really, really. contested in Iraq. It was like it, you.

know, was I think at the time it was. General Mcrist who was leading the task. force and it was absolutely critical. You know, it was at that point where. people really believed that country. could go into a full civil. war. There were bombs getting driven. into markets that were killing hundreds. at the time. You could not go out during. the day. The threat was so so high and. the rotation was just on on circle. circle circle. Um, and you know, that's most pronounced.

on a lot of the others, maybe 30, some. 70. So, if you add it all up, it's a. huge array. But I've also spent extended. periods on front lines, you know, and. that's one, but it's lasted for weeks. Yeah. When we're on that front line, we. are the top target. Yeah. They're trying. to and you know we we've had some fun in. games with particular brilliant snipers. and mortar teams before you know been. pinn pinned down by a very very good.

sniper who remained a problem. We never. found a solution for him but he kept on. being effective. Wow. you know, and uh. another one was a mortar team that. seemed specifically to be orientated. towards us and um one evening we're just. down there monitoring and seeing where. the threats building up and ensuring. that that front line can't be broke. You. know, it's like constant constant. where's it going to happen next? And uh. we had a particular member in our in our.

team who used to be free mortars and he. used to be like a walking human mortar. radar. He could literally it's. absolutely astonishing and I was sat. there and I was on the radio talking to. the air and uh and uh we usually it's. that ubiquitous white truck, right? And. we could kind of pick it out from its. movement. We'd all be like, "Is that. Morty? Is that that mort? Okay, fine. So. anyway, whatever. Didn't really see the.

truck that time. Perhaps concentrating. somewhere else. We heard the Mort report. and uh this member of the team was like. that. That's over there. And the round. landed about a K short further down the. hill. And he turned round and. said, "That's that's for us.". And we all looked at him a bit like and. I just continued talking on the radio. and the next one landed at 180 foot away. further down this ridge line. We've got.

like a bunk we've got like a position. that's all pushed up dirt and it's about. probably at the. base 3 to 5 m wide. Yeah. And it comes. up that's you know when they push it all. up into a burm and it's got like sand. sandbagged positions but it's all really. sort of not very well constructed. The. next one uh landed about 180t away and I. remember looking up and looking over at. the plume coming out and I just heard.

down and then nothing and it was black. and I was like and one had landed they. had just done two very very good very. accurate and one had landed literally. coming to the other side of the burm but. because these uh mortars are not very. well fused Right. It buried itself in. the ground, gone off and just covered us. in dirt. And I was talking to the air. and I remember just sort of coming back.

into sort of like realization that that. was awful. That would have took the. whole team out. We were all in a. vicinity of the radio. Thankfully, most. of them up against that side of the. burm. I was the only one standing up. And it's just that realization that had. gone in the other side of the BM. The. fusing's really bad in it. That's really. what saved us. And it gone and buried. itself before it had gone off. And I. remember looking down at one of our uh.

partners, Northern Iraqi partners, and. it dusting like dust off all of. us. And um and I just remember looking. down and we had a house not far back. And I just looked at the team. I was. like, and bearing in mind they were. still there. We had a choice to try and. work out where they were and try and get. some air onto it. We're just like, do. you want to call it a night? Yeah. And. they're like, "Yeah, you know, that was.

what life was like on the front line. You know, it's kind of stickked out to. me a little bit more, especially when. the clouds coming in, right? And you, you know, the air is not going to come. and help you then. And there's constant. attempts to find out where you were, constant wonder like who's up, what's. happening, tunneling, whatever it was, there was something going on. And it was. a real sort of realization. And when you. woke up, you'd see like the sun come up. And we had our times and, you know, our. partner force would run out of food.

quite often. And they come and bring you. a dish of fried oagene, which is not the. most nutritious thing I've ever been. fed. And often they've run out of. ammunition. Not often, but worryingly. enough they wouldn't have ammunition. You're just looking at it like, wow. You. know, you're just trying to hold it. together, ensure that the situation is. not going to break. No one's going to. come through that front line cuz when. they did, the attacks were absolutely. awful. You know, the consequences to the. villages behind them. And these were um.

uh Kurdish forces. a lot of them there, you know, different factions of the. Kurdish. Um and um you know, once when. when when they managed to infiltrate. through because there was lots and lots. of people talking to them on the other. side. Um you know, and they were. constantly attempting to do that. And it. was quite extraordinary the level of. effect and training some of these people. had, you know, and I think that's sort. of that that's. migration. There's always been it's. always struck me when I've been on. operations. There's been a certain. pattern we've had. there's certain.

groups that kind of sort of share the. ethnic identity, religion, whatever. They're part of the population. Um, and. then you've got this element of foreign. fighters that come in and they're either. full of f fervor but they've got no. baseline support or they're uh extremely. well. trained and I've always detected the. level of state help that these groups. have got. So whilst you're operating. against known terrorist.

organizations, they're prescribed. organizations. They're recognized. They. have always been receiving facilitation. support and people are looking at the. whole situation and trying to find gaps. in the strategy and go against it and. you know pick those vulnerabilities. And. it's not these people you're facing that. necessarily the people that. orchestrating all the finance and all. the facilitation that gives them the. ability to operate in the way they do. And that's the enormous complexity of.

going up against these groups. And. almost the front line was quite. refreshing cuz the front line was set. and you had this period of ground which. everyone was trying to sort of find the. gaps in and and get. You did get. infiltration a lot but when it happened. it was much more understandable. and it. wasn't the same as some of the other. situations I've been in. Um, so, you. know, the front line was really, really. interesting done over ranges and. distances, you know, unless they got.

close and they rarely rarely rarely ever. did that. Um, all of the ranges we had. to look at our weapon systems and go, okay, well, these things that we're. carrying aren't much good for this, so. let's swap them out. So, I swapped to a. um a 417 is 5.56 version of HK, isn't. it? I was cover swap to a 417 with a. tripod and um so you you saw different. choices getting made but we were. sleeping outside on the front line a lot. of the time very very exposed um but it. was you know quite um an interesting.

period of operations for me um learned a. lot about human beings learned a huge. amount about trust especially with. traditional cultures that don't. understand about advanced weaponry and. when one fails and you get finally. explain that and they're just saying can. you make sure it doesn't come near us. and you're like look you know this this. is not not how you think it and. understanding about how you deal with. people as well you know I always used to. carry a covert weapon on me I used to.

carry two Glocks because as you're going. into meetings it's a level of. trust a lot of them have very very. traditional cultures but you can never. be 100% sure that you knew who everyone. was or what you had so I make a very. visible display of putting that weapon. down on the table and talking, but I'd. always have something on me, you know, and um thankfully, you know, I've nearly. been caught out once um really badly and. that was not trusting my instinct. Um.

but otherwise, you know, it's pretty. much held up reading people, judging who. they are, what they want, uh has really. kind of sort of held up in that respect. when you're dealing with partners. And. as you know, you're never sure of who is. talking to who and who is doing what. You know, there's risk and uncertainty. everywhere. But to get the job done, you. have to at least look like you're a. simple person to deal with, you know, and sometimes you haven't got the. resources to check everyone out, you.

know, you just simply won't be able to, you know. So getting trusted partners. you know who can say you know this is my. place you know people who are fixers. translators people who are able to say. to you look this doesn't fit are just. invaluable. Yeah. Well John let's take a break. Yeah. When. we come back we'll get into your. retirement and what you're doing now. Yeah. Go ahead. Perfect.

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We're not going to spam you. It's about. one newsletter a week, maybe two if we. release two shows. The only other thing. that's going to be in there besides the. intel brief is if we have a new product. or something like that. But like I said, it's a free CIA. intelligence brief. Sign up. Links in. the description or in the comments. We'll see you in the newsletter. All right, John, we're back from the. break. We're getting ready to get in to.

retirement, but before that, you had. some you had some other issues. Yeah. And these are the things that have. dawned on me. You know, the intensive. nature of deployments. You know, I you. know, I've had an intensive operational. career as have others. It's a period of. time. you know, it may or may not be. repeated in that same sort of similar. vein. Um, but for me, you know, there. was two certain points, you know, and. again, I didn't um flag it or report it.

You know, I noticed it in time. I think. it was intuition that told me, but I had. two distinct uh periods in a change of. behavior, which is probably the best. indicator for me that things were. getting very, very tough to hold. together. Um, now notably I never didn't. work and I ne necessarily flagged them. up. So I don't think they come to a. point where they were particular risk or.

danger to others but they were. significant. You know there was those. periods of time you're like this is not. me. Why am I thinking like this? Why am. I behaving like this? To other team. members it was like why are you being so. hyper security aware? Right? Can you. stop going on about the roof door? We. don't need to put a guard on it. you. know. LA and um I think that was like. symptomatic of the overloading. professional stress that's just laid and. laid on top the personal aspects of. stress alatic load as such and in one.

particular time I'd had a really. intensive period of operations really. intensive and some of them were those. unsupported operations that I alluded to. earlier again no food no drink couldn't. trust people around you you know running. out washing in salt. Um, and when I I noticed it, I was on a. period of domestic support and. training and we're running some stuff in. London and and I became quite sort of. malaligned, quite sort of distrusting.

uh, and you know, really kind of quite. neurotic about who was watching and like. paranoia. Yeah. It's like, you know, that's not me, right? I'm actually. really kind of sort of measured trusting. person you know and that's a good way to. be in life you know be advised and be. you know use your judgment well but. essentially I I believe in trusting. people and I do believe that people are. essentially. good and uh so I was you know it was.

really really sort of quite sort of. something that caught me uh and in a. particular time shortly afterwards I was. having these sort of mini seizures as. well and I think this is just the nature. of uh the intensive training we're doing. around explosives at the time. So if you. added all of it up, you know, the. uncontrollable spaces where you're very. near to recallous rifles and you know, mortars and everything else and not. necessarily with the best equipment. Um. you whatever it was that led to those. things, they happened over a.

concentrated period of time. I never. flagged it at the time cuz they used to. go away. Used to happen in the morning. um a little bit in particular. I was. sitting down and it was just sort of. like sort of fixed up and my leg used to. lift a bit. So the changes in behavior. you thinking real negative thought. patterns creep creeping in um was enough. of an indicator to be like I've got to. get a grip of this somehow you know and. I've got to and I did find my way. through if I remember and nothing's sort.

of like oh it was until this date or. like I didn't go and see someone about. it. Um but it took a couple of years to. rele um I was still working. operationally. The nature of the work. changed because I'd moved into the wider. sphere of operations. So there's a lot. of deployed but living and advising. Um. and I think that was enough space to. sort of take it back under control. But. I used to remember you know a lot of. these space places we go aren't that. dangerous you know and you can go.

walking around and I used to walk around. a lot and do a lot of thinking a lot of. wondering and I think it's that space. plus the training and plus the. realization that you know these thoughts. are not me you know they're kind of sort. of this paranoia about you. know who's doing what and you know I. always sort of make jokes around the. looney tunes like sort of tweet bird. showing what's going on behind me sort. of thing that's just just not me right. So and I think this was my first.

realization that professionally induced. stress and personal and the bigger. bigger part actually I believe is in the. personal things that you'll face in your. life and the medical pillars of. bereiement financial stress uh exposure. to trauma and separation and I like to. add separation doesn't mean a divorce. necessarily it can mean separation from. your loved ones whilst you're in a. profession where they're they're they're. wearing even more stress than you. Mhm.

But you know when you're not there to. support people and help it comes with. those feelings that you should have been. right and it takes strength on both. sides to not have that become a context. in relationship. So separation is quite. an interesting one but those are the. medical pillars for when you need to be. conscious about the levels of stress. that can change and physiologically. impact you. visual impact to you means a. change in. behavior. So, I'm just curious though. I. mean, you're talking about 19.

deployments, 20 years with the SAS. I. mean, that also builds. your psyche, that builds your I mean. that that's who you are. Mhm. you know, I mean, it it it's something you did, but it forms you through the time that. you spend in that type of environment. And so, you know, paranoia, wondering what people are.

doing behind you, always looking in the. rearview mirror to see if you're being. followed, never sitting with your back. against the door or the entrance. I. mean, that's stuff. that that's stuff that I deal with. that. stuff that I think that anybody who's. operated at that type of a level. experiences that and it. just maybe you're different but for for. me and and everybody I know that you. will carry that with you likely.

until for the rest of your life. Yeah. Do you have you managed to take that. paranoia and Yeah, I have you know to a. certain extent but I'm really really. conscious that you know I don't want to. be that paranoid person. I want to be. that trusting person that's deeply me, right? And so I actively refute it. But. what I've noticed, and I think you're. absolutely right, is having been exposed.

in those professional terms and as a. consequence of things that can happen in. your personal life as well, the the move. through to normal and stable through to, you know, chaotic and, you know, hyper. aware is much much quicker. I I want to. rephrase what I was saying, too. I mean, Because I think that there is a well I. don't think I know there's an element. that comes from operating at a level.

like that where your ego gets involved. and that becomes who you are and that's. not what I'm talking about you know. being an S an SAS operative or operator. you know that's not who you are today. No and a lot of people can't shut that. down and move on and find the next. thing. I think that's it's a it's a very. challenging. time in our lives is to is to find your.

new identity. But what I'm what I'm. talking about is the experiences that. you amass through your lifetime and the. in the experiences that. you've that you've had in that type of. an. occupation form who you are. Does that. make sense? Yes, it does. cuz you've. experienced. things, a lot of things. that 99% of the population will never.

will never even come close to those type. of experiences. Yeah. Absolutely right. So this is a job, a profession. And so. what I'm saying is for those type of for. those. people that 99 percentile that that. never experience what you've experienced. or what I've experienced or a lot of. other people that sit across from me in. this room. experiences. I mean they just people. that have not experienced that they.

don't it doesn't register what could. happen. It doesn't. register. They they have not they have. no they have no database to understand. the potential threats and and and. and to formulate a new way of thinking. which I'm not say I'm not saying it's a. better way. I'm just saying. that I don't. necessarily know if it's from trauma. I.

think it's just from. experiencing. threats that most people never have to. experience. Does that make any sense? It. makes absolute sense. Right. So, and I. deeply feel that it's not trauma that. leads to these these issues. You know, and this is a job remember where you. will go back and sit in your location. covered in someone else's blood. Like it. is tough tough times. Sometimes you go.

back so tired. Your brain doesn't. function. It's like an out of body. experience and you wake up the next. morning. But your body's actually very. resilient in recuperating from that and. the exposure to trauma. And I've always. reminded myself that, you know, these. are volunteers. They're professional. soldiers that do this. And they they. live in an extraordinary environment. where threat is all around them all the. time. You know, you have to make. judgments and calculations all the time. I used to call like pager syndrome,

operator syndrome is something. different. Pager syndrome is always on. call. Always on call. And if you don't. turn up, you haven't done your job. And. rightly, you should be disciplined or. get sat you know the page syndrome. Got. to spit air on time. All of that loads. and loads up on you. You and I think. you're conditioned to deal with it. almost throughout. I don't think trauma. is responsible for the neurological. deficit that builds up. You know, that's. the thing I'm talking about. You know,

I'm really, really conscious. The. outcome for me has been pretty good. I. do feel stable, happy. Mhm. I know in my. relationships with people they're. fulfilled and good, you know, and I I. don't struggle in that sense, but I'm. very very conscious how quickly things. can change. And I think a deficit is. built up. And I think it's your exposure. to extraordinary conditions. It builds.

up over time. Your physiology isn't set, it learns, and it can go way out of. queue. And if you've got problems within. your physiology, you will become. paranoid, anxious. You know, the whole. thing is out of queue and it will change. your behaviors and all the things they. give a PTSD diagnosis for. And I believe. that a lot of people are given PTSD. diagnosises, it's an entirely subjective. diagnosis in my eyes, you know, and. actually they're more down to the. physical conditions that these people.

have been enduring that ultimately. challenge human biology, right? And. ultimately over the years you will go. out of queue. It's like getting a weapon. site, moving it through a different. temperature, banging it around in a box. in transit. You know, you need to go. back and rezero it. And then if you're. not rezeroed, the thing will slide. And. that's what I put my changes of behavior. down to. I put like the mini events I. was having, seen, whatever it was down. to intensive periods of explosives. That's when they happened. No. So I look.

for the simplest causes every single. time and for periods of time I was. getting no sleep. I was just intensively. involved in operations and I think that. has resulted in that that period of. change in behavior. Mhm. But more. significantly and something I'm really. sort of grateful for is through I think. intuition because I never sat down when. I left the army. I did something else. and that was for different reasons but I. never sat down with any experts said.

what's going on and I deliberately. didn't declare losses of balance. uh lost you know certain seizure type. event I can't even describe them I. described to a neurologist like a trans. transient eskeema and just no it can't. be cuz that's like blood going wrong you. know so I don't know what they were but. they were happening and I know when they. were happening and they were happening. because was very very close and. intensively training on explosive. devices time and time and time again and.

you know and that's what's led to my. fascination in not just you know the the. consequences operator syndrome which I. think to a relative degree everyone will. end up with at some some in some degree. Mhm. And this is a job that leaves a. legacy. It does leave a legacy. And I. think you know you I used to say it to. everyone no one wins if you break. like. you really really got to stay on top of. this. If you're seeing indications in. behavior, defensiveness know all of this.

sort of stuff. These are the first. indications. These people are very very. well trained. They're volunteers doing. you know something that they have given. up so much to do. It takes more than. just trauma to get these people. completely out of queue. The normal. response to trauma is 2 weeks to four. weeks suffer an acute stressor. you. process it through and it will really. just start fading in two to four weeks. The trouble is, and again, if you've got.

people who are demonstrating really. concerning behaviors internally to. themselves, someone sits inside them and. recalls the last thing that may have. happened. There's this kind of self. expectation of trauma now, not just in. these really hard professions. I think. in wider society now is becoming. unhelpful in working out the real. problems. I'm not saying people don't. get PTSD, but it's not always the. reason. And when you're looking at these. people that have been using explosives,

they've been in conditions where they. don't get fed properly for a while, they. don't sleep or they've lacked a pattern. of sleep, um then for me they're much. more compelling reasons for your body to. be completely out of queue. I mean I sit. here with alipcia it happened after my. mom's death. Mhm. Right. That's an. informationational autoimmune response. for me. That's simple. Yeah. It's. directly due to that. Doesn't surprise. me. Now part of the art I think of this. and coming out of this and again you.

know I left in 21 and that was a part of. a 40 45 50 year professional career. A. very very formative part. A part I was. extremely proud of. Now, I'm proud of my. service. It's one of the, you know, I. served for 23 years. You know, we signed. an oath. You know, it's that's something. I'm incredibly proud of, but it doesn't. have to be my defining thing for the. rest of my career. And I've actively. sort of switched and moved on. Good for.

you. And you're right, the the. transition period, right, is you know, for for my own belief, it's if you hold. on too much to that, it actually makes. making the step more complicated. But. this step is years. I think the first. step is four years to even start shaping. your behaviors. You know, when I went to. go and speak to people about what made. me valuable for them for employment, I. used to say, "Oh, you know, I can be an. airport within 3 hours of notice. you.

don't have to tell me when I'm coming. back. Um, you know, I'm not asking for. like months away, but if you have weeks. and you have a problem that needs. solving, I can do it. And it sounds mad, right? And these people don't need. people like that, but you know, that was. the way I was sort of hardwired to. think, you know, that's what, you know, on a call I can go somewhere. And, uh, you know, and gradually I've sort of. learned to sort of talk a different. language, a more recognizable language. for me, you know, because the further. away you get from it, the more you you. deal. you know, there's some real challenges.

in transition and I think they're. further further complicated with these. unhelpful diagnosises in people, you. know, and um there's an over reliance on. medication and very simple approaches to. complex problems, complex diagnosises, but you can actually see the risk. factors, the exposures there within the. profession. Mhm. And I've noted a lot, you know, I I take a lot of notice about. the SEAL teams, you know, and the you.

know, water, for instance, when you're. traveling fast in a boat and it's. constantly constantly banging and you, you know, professional boat drivers in. the in the marines, you know, really. interesting group to look at. There's. all sorts of mechanisms through that. profession that are very very. challenging for you and a significant. minority. And I make the really. important point, right? Because service. is really great, you know, and service, you know, it doesn't mean your outcomes. are going to be bad. The majority emerge. and find the space to be happy and.

successful later on in a second career, but it doesn't happen by magic. It's. very, very tough getting there. But. there is a very significant minority. where the outcomes are really, really. tough. and they're tough for them, but. they're also difficult to watch because. for me, there must be solutions to it. Like there's it's not good enough to be. like you're traumatized the rest of your. life. Yeah. Go back to my. mom. I'm sad about it. It's tragic. It's.

not like I was traumatized. I probably. wasn't traumatized after about 2 years. from that, you know, and that's. something that's really, really, really. significant cuz it impacts you so much, you know, when you're kind of sort of. desperately thinking, I've got some. really interesting stories about looking. after cows. A small herd, but they're. woodland cattle, so they're quite. spirited. We had a bull called. Formidable. I made the mistake of not. feeding them. So before we could get a. farmer in to look and he had he just. added that small contingent of cattle to.

his herd. I didn't I didn't uh feed him. fed him too late and uh one had the cow. had stuck their head um through to try. and get one of the big half ton hay. bales and it was laid there and because. of its heavy head it was stuck it. through the the the uh metal um gates. that they were had. And as it got more. tired, it's pressing down on its. windpipe. And I don't know what, you. know, this this is post my mom. I don't.

know what told me check on the cattle. But I went in there and it's pandemonium. as they not they I think I've given them. too little food. So it stayed hungry and. trying to get this head. I don't know. how the head the cow managed to get its. head through this really small space in. the first place, but it did. And um and. it was in incredibly uh difficult. pushing this cow's head back. through. And um you know um those sorts. of experiences you can easily turn.

around and be like how on earth did I. get here? This is just in that case I. ended up covered in the cow's blood. because they're all dehorned. They're. all deeppold cattle. Um but I don't know. how it wiggled its head through. But in. the end, the solution was to kind of. sort of just flatten out the pole of the. cattle to just change cuz it's fibrous. the horn of the cow. And somehow and the. cow was sort of quite furious at me. because I was kind of sort of flattening. out its horn so I could just wiggle its.

head through and it actually sort of. pushed against the gate and it just had. enough perches to push me up against. this half ton bail. It was um you know I. could hear your ribs like and I but. eventually the cow seemed to just figure. out I was trying to help it and then. wiggled its head back through itself and. I go. brilliant. But anyway, you know and it's. at those periods of time when you've. been exposed to these really really. impactful events when you could be like. do you know what why why am I in this.

situation? And I've really kind of sort. of been disciplined to not go that way. there's no solution there. There's no. recourse. You know what's the use in it? And I think that's a very good. indication of whether you're traumatized. by something further is how much you can. just center yourself back to what's. important. Um and um you know and you. know to a great extent people I served. alongside they're they're remarkable.

people. They've all passed the same. course I did. You know they're. volunteers. uh they're very duty-led you. know and um you know I'd expect them to. not be so susceptible to trauma although. the exposure is massive right you do. turn up at events and see a lot of. trauma you know it's like. um uh in certain. circumstances it can be overwhelming. like plane crashes Mhm. But you quickly. move on and you recourse and you know in. some of the most recent work I'm doing.

with experts say that's right. You know. your physiology is actually more. powerful than you'd ever believe in. ensuring that your. yourself makes it. through readapts. And this led into what. you're doing now today. Yeah. Yes. So I. mean I've got lots of interesting. experiences mostly funny about how I So. I left the military very quickly. We do. have a certain way of going when I left.

in 3 months uh which is not necessarily. what um but essentially um uh I. separated from the children to my mom. which was all done without lawyers. It. was all done very um well in that you. know the whole thing is very uncertain. for both. It costs a lot of money to do. it to try and find individual decision-m. positions but essentially we never had. to resort to a contest. We never had to. use legal people which cost a lot of. money we did not have. And so we used.

the money to kind of shore up everyone's. existence. And the biggest thing was to. ensure that people didn't leave that. with a ton of regret they weren't going. to come back. from. Um, so that's one of the reasons I. kind of left the military quite quickly. I'd come to the end of my contract. I. was on extension essentially. I knew I. wasn't going to be operational. anymore. So I chose to move on. Uh, before I went, I sat down with the. psychiatric nurse. Uh, it's no no harm.

to check inside, right? I thought, you. know, I know, you know, in in the course. of my career, I know the things that. have challenged me. Plane crashes, you. know, being in situations where you had. no control whatsoever, right? Those are. the things that I've remarked upon and. I've largely dealt with them. I have my. change in behavior around 2014. So, I'm. not, but it was a good thing to do to. sit down and do the 7-hour um. course. Uh the other two reasons I did. that is to reassure the people I've been.

working with for so long that when I was. going I was in a fairly stable state. because obviously people worry about you. not me personally but generally you know. they worry about you're just about to go. into a sea of change really fastm moving. change and people don't realize the. challenges that are presented personally. the sleepless nights you'll have and. that can quickly revert you back into. something somebody that's concerning, right? Your your behavior is testing,

whatever. So, I did it to reassure. people and I did it so when I go and sit. in front of these same people I promised. to be at the airport within 3 hours if. they needed me. to that I was perfectly fine, right? You. know, I Yeah, I'm going to say, look, you're never going to get to see it, but. I've done that file. I am not that. stereotype. I've not got PTSD and I'm. not also not making that up because. you'll also think that I'm just saying. that and I absolutely haven't. I've.

checked. I'm good. Just need to work out. work which is going to be messy. I get. um so I did that uh and then I left and. in the course of doing that I thought I. could set it was at the back end of. COVID and obviously everyone had been. sort of confined to their houses and. moving out a lot less. So I made a an. assessment that everyone would want to. train outside in the parks and this was. still in the course of me leaving. So I.

set up three areas that I could sort of. train people and the assessment couldn't. have been more wrong. Like people have. been confined to their houses, tested. mentally to a severe degree and the last. thing they wanted to do was to go and do. physical trailing in parks. So okay, I. was wrong. Uh I detected I was wrong. But when I was uh I was running free. areas. I was getting up at like 5:00 in. the morning and doing these physical. training sessions for what should have. been 20 in a class and there was like. ones and twos if anyone turned up at. all. And so I was having a ferocious.

schedule of honoring my things. I didn't. have any money to bring on further. instructors. The end game with that was. like to set up something that was fairly. stable that I could get local management. to overlook so I could then quickly move. on. And again, this is part of the. naivity of kind of, you know, I've got. no pedigree in business. I don't. understand how marketing works. And so. I've kind of sort of bumped off all the. things, but quite um hilariously, I was. messing around doing I train.

calisthenics quite a bit or at least. sort of in a very amateurish way, right? And something called PL that you do, and. I sort of binding my time waiting for. these people to turn up that probably. wouldn't anyway. And I saw like a beam. in a car park. So I was like, I'll just. try PL on that if that was a really good. idea. And the beam wasn't fixed, right? So it tipped forward and as it tipped. forward, I had to quickly kick my legs. through. And as I did, uh the old Chris. packet sheet white. I was with a friend.

actually was coming to help me out. I. know I broke my arm and I was waiting to. have a medical discharge, right? And I. desperate to move on. And so I was like. in in the way I was thinking at the time. based in the mind that I was in in the. middle of a separation. I was leaving. the army. So probably my decision making. probably looked very very different from. what you would naturally be doing if. you're sitting around the kitchen table. after dinner and going you know it's.

like go on holiday. Um, so when I broke. my arm, my first thought is I can't get. plaster because then they won't give me. a medical discharge because they'll see. that I'm injured and I suspect. militaries won't let you go until you're. absolutely fully fit. Um, so I decided. not to have a cast. I was fairly happy. it was stable and I've got pictures on. my phone of what this looked like and it. was like a spiral fracture of the outer.

layer of the arm. And at this point I was sleeping on a. camp cot a metal frame camp cot right. So and again you know the um I was. implored to go and get a plaster on it. you know and I was saying what's the. point? It's stable. You can see it's. stable right you know it'll heal quick. enough. It was really disgusting color. And I was doing fitness training. sessions and I think it was like the. next day I was like throwing up in.

bushes because every time it sort of. clacked again obviously I would have. this sort of immediate shock response. like up in a bush utterly mad right if. you look back on it it's just like what. did they think the people thought I'd. taken for fitness. So anyway, I've sort. of in the end I I found something on the. internet. You know the buckets of. gravity that pushed their ice water into. I bought one of those and that acted as. a really really good cast. So I used to. sort of. obviously going around with my bucket.

with. the So anyway, I turn up to do my final. discharge stuff and you go around and. they say, "Where's this jacket?" you. give back the jacket and all that sort. of stuff. The last thing is this medical. discharge and I walk into the medical um. unit and who are all amazingly lovely. people, brilliant people as well, you. know, all know but no. And I've said, "Oh, come from a discharge." And um uh.

the lady at the desk says like that. Oh. no, they go on on the phone since co. So. I'd gone to these extreme limits to not. have a cast on my on my arm in order to. be present discharge that I never needed. to be present for. So there was plenty. of those sorts of experiences and it. would just pick pick yourself up and. find the next problem. Don't try and. find it. You'll trip over it anyway. And. uh but that all healed nicely. I was. absolutely right. You know, actually.

there was no reason for a cast. Once I. worked out that thing, it was brilliant. You know, it was just like funny. But if. you just picture sleeping on a campcock. with its metal frame, waking up in the. night, you rolled onto it and it's. extraordinarily painful. So that was the. immediate process of sort of breaking. free as such. And then uh I did some work as a sort of. consultant but it's really really low. pay right and you know I've got sort of.

fairly it was never going to be enough. and also it wasn't the right type of. work but it was in. performance then I got offered a job as. a CPO in a fully employed role and it. was extremely well played um it was. actually working in a pretty decent. rotation. It came with a full full medical. package. It's working for someone who. did a huge amount of travel. So the days.

you were on, you know, very very very. long days, like 18 20our days, but. essentially the atmosphere was was not. good, you know, and I I did I just. wasn't in tune with it. And I knew I. wasn't in tune with it. Um and then I. got offered a job by a company that has. satellite. connectivity and I worked for them for a. period of time and they wanted to break. into new markets and they're assessing. Ukraine for its you know its needs for.

energy resilience that sort of stuff. So. building up connectivity so I went. through a period of that and actually. was it was quite enjoyable. I was in and. out of Ukraine quite a lot, you know, and um very visibly connected with a. business, but actually, you know, you. could see beyond the valuable work I got. done, which was the forward-ledd work of. that, but it was nothing to do with. business, right? And when it comes to. the business piece, it was all too. uncertain. And through that period that's when it.

kind of the reflection came on me as. like hang on a minute you know in these. employed roles people are having to. justify my existence you know and when. they can justify the existence it's all. for these exceptional move into a new. market it's not for the normal everyday. functioning of the business and that's. where people sit comfortably. Mhm. If. you try and move into the new market. with a. business, you. know, it happens very rarely that people.

will usually test it and then come back. So I think the employment opportunities. that people um uh from special forces. background need to be really really. carefully looked at because it's not. about getting support. Now it's not. getting um you know people to to bring. into companies and employed having felt. that they want to give you a chance. because you're on a ticking clock you. know. actually and the skills that you have. are very very effective right I've. proved that I'm very very supportive.

person and I love doing it I love seeing. something and go I sort of call myself a. very effective minion you know so I get. involved in people where things are. going on and I'm very very happy to do. it just because of time, just because I. believe in it. I've got lots of examples. coming. up. Um, but essentially if it's an. employed role, people are struggling to. explain what your role is in certain. sectors and in the in the security.

sector from my brief interlude in that. And I do draw a distinction between the. US market and the UK market very very. very different. You know, the US market. is got a massive area where people from. ex-military backgrounds and it's. especially pronounced in SF backgrounds. actually not a military slightly better. um whereas you don't have that in the. UK. So I bumped through I got made. redundant uh in May last year and I was.

expecting contract work to come. in. in the background I've been trained. as a. speaker. Um so that's led to sort of two. things. One I did a you know I define it. as professional speaking though that. sounds sort of quite sort of sort of. high up there but it's speaking where. you've studied it for a course and I did. a course called with the bespoke elite. speaking training. it's an ex. profofessional rugby player um called. Leon Lloyd is actually very he's he's.

quite involved in trans transition. veterans and um so from having done that. course I thought I would get enough of a. program of speaking events to be able to. kind of stay positioned ready to take. this contract work and ready to be where. the main things I was involved in do. break but actually that's again it's. quite naive you know if you think about. how I do my speaking and I love doing. it. I'm really really passionate about. it. I just did one for the London Fire.

Brigade, eight different sessions and it. was absolutely brilliant. You know, not. an easy set of people to talk to as. well. It's it's you know, it's really. great. You know, it's I like being on my. toes sometimes, right? And it's uh it's. it's really develops you as well. You. have to study what does the audience. need and there's absolutely got to be an. element of performance in there, which. is where this course came very. important. you're working with. professional comedians, you're working. with people who worked in sort of stage. shows in this course. So the course.

itself was very valuable to do but it. didn't necessarily lead to more work and. the speaking I do is always in person. You know it's always going to be. specifically impactful although I can do. behavioral adaptation. I've got a. program for that. um you know I can do. any type of speaking and I've proved. that you know from speaking at cadets. dinners which I absolutely love through. to speaking to defense primes and. actually the thing I've probably. cherished the most is I did one for a. scaffolding company which is absolutely.

brilliant big scaffolding company in in. in Wales and and a roofing company so. it's almost going back to my heart and. but they were brilliant and uh you know. doing something for the services like. London Fire Brigade and sort of getting. across those experiences. But again, it's just reassuring people that you're. like sometimes ignore the clamor and the. noise. Mhm. Society has become very. noisy and it's got real high. expectations and actually concentrate on.

what you've delivered because every. single time you turn up and you are. doing your job to exceptional standards. and just focus on that, you know, and. some of it and it was quite interesting. cuz I asked some people, you know, what. do you worry. about? They would say, "Oh, you know, it's the opinion of this or this, you. know, has been seen as a an instant. where it should have been betterly. managed." You go, "But really, is that.

your job to worry about that? Actually, there's a person over there who's paid. to deal with that." Mhm. You know, and. again, it's all around this sort of. slight sort of. um shouldering of stress and. responsibility. Mhm. It all comes from. listening to the noise, right? And I say. to people, protect and preserve your own. perspective. Your own perspective. You. own that, right? Doesn't matter how hard. you got to sort of close off the clamor. sometimes. If you got to get into that,

you know, in their case, they're far. engines and go and respond to a job, you. turn up and you do it every time. And. it's remarkable the standards expected. of all of these things. So I really. enjoyed that bit of work. The other I'm. ambassador to a performance company. Um. so these this is a company called Planet. K2. Uh this is quite new. So one of the. first things I did I was put in touch. with a guy called Keith Hatter. And.

goodness knows what I sounded like when. I had my first conversation with him. because I was still speaking in a. language that people really didn't. understand. And you know I was. struggling to explain my skills and in. sort of words where they're just like. well okay. but so they slightly after that um you. know Keith Hassa asked me to do they. have something called performance fest. and it's run at Soho Hotel and he asked. me to be a speaker as a number of four. and the title was uh using data for high.

performance and you know I said you I'm. not a nominal data expert I've got a lot. of experience experience with data and. everything else. And the other people on. the course was a very high up um uh. person in IBM for energy. uh the head of EM EMEA marketing. possibly for meta and the chief analyst. at Gusto chief distribution at Gusto. So. it's quite a sort of considerable kind. of a professional experience there. Um.

so it was one of the first sort of. speaking events where I sat down really. tried to apply myself uh and it seemed. to go very very well and it proved I. could do it you know alongside and um. more lately and a few years went by and. I talked to Keith every so often you. know he's extremely experienced person. and um sometimes just talking to people. you get the best bit of advice that they. never intended to give And some of my.

interactions, I'm very lucky. I've got. really great friends. When I talk to. them, it just sort of reminds you, keep. on your center point. Things are good. They're held in together. They may not. look pretty pretty, but Keith in the end. has asked me to come ambassador to. Planet K2. And there's a different type. of performance we're talking about. I've. done a couple of speaking events for. them. And uh I think they're sort of. increasingly looking at um hopefully a. growing relationship where I'm included.

in their offers. Um and they do. performance as a culture. So they have. 21 rules that they stick by. And so it's. not immediately something I have. something to add to their offer, but I. also have to learn their offer and their. culture. And they've got two two decades. of experience of delivering this. So. through these types of interactions, I've learned a great deal and developed. very fast, right? Because if someone. asks you to be sit on a stage, you you. you take it seriously. You go and learn,

you educate, you develop. That's been. absolutely fundamental to keeping my. progress going. But the speaking is. really yet to take shape. And I've got a. strong suspicion that speaking comes. from doing becoming involved in other. very important things. So I hope that in. time but the last thing you want to do. is rely on people unnecessarily. It's. their pattern of business that allows. you the opportunity to join in. You. can't immediately sort of turn and say.

things are getting really really tough. I really really need more work. You know. you've got to let them develop at their. own pace and it may not necessarily suit. you. So I've had had other you know. extraordinary asks you know I tend to. like to support people and you know. friends a friend's father came to me and. said a very very high net worth person. was getting threatened you know I went. and sat for quite a long time with her. looked at the messages they were. receiving essentially it was down to.

what do these threats constitute are. they real or perceived I said well you. know written that in my view it's. perceived but you can never rule outre. Yeah. So, but instead of hiring huge. arrays of security just because of the. possibility of real, you just need to. understand how to control the. communication, the means of. communication, these threats, right, and. understand where that is located and to. in my view, right, that's a threat that.

you can report. So it was actually a no. money solution and it was worthwhile in. terms of one you know one of the key. ones is you know reassuring these people. so they're not walking around feeling. threatened by everything and everyone. but uh essentially again it's taught to. me when I look at the solutions to. things they don't fit what people want. to say you know it's like these days. when you say I need a you know what. should I do about my CCTV we're like. well get a machine learning program the.

these two people don't need to be sat. Right. So, it's not necessarily the. solutions that other people want to see. as well, but I have had sort of. interesting interactions. There's a. company called Cocoon that excellent in. digital privacy. I hope that this sort. of grows, but who knows where it will. You know, consultancy I think is going. to be something I'm going to have to. push really, really hard for when I get. home. Speaking is definitely not. something I can massively rely on, but I. absolutely love and I think it will. become big.

But quite early on uh and I was looking. to get on a course at Imperial College. um bearing on my last time I did proper. study. I do have a certificate in. international relationships. international security. So a PG PG7 as. such qualification fell short of a. mast's but otherwise it's A levels and. you know I went to Imperial College to. try and understand whether there was a. course in coding I could do or some. element around sort of cyber or or that. that side of things.

They did up in the end offer me a place. on a a masters in resilience and. security. But on our walk around a guy. called professor Deep Channer who's the. head of the inst security. security science and technology at the. Imperial College. So really really. significant Imperial College is an. incredible institution. uh in the walk round of the innovation. hub I was introduced to a guy called. Richard Staithm and he 8 years ago um. met I don't know how long he had known.

Vincent Telenbach is an engineer before. but Vincent Telenbach had been uh. writing waveforms um and he did it in. cooperation coordination with John. Hopkins and Kennedy Kreger Institute. John Hopkins University sort of medical. grade waveforms when they were written. to um deal with um pediatrics with. neurological conditions very very. challenging ones uh and in in some cases. sort of nothing to lose type stuff to.

sort of affect. neurology. So Richard Stafm started a. company called what's now called NMES. groups a neuromuscular electro. stimulation group and over the next. eight years. um through a process of engineering so. none of this is brand new in terms of. it's a trusted technology it's an EMS. background but. they've found a way of making a. superconductive membrane that can be. rendered into clothes uh and therefore.

the platforms you can put it in are. endless. Right. So, and these are trusted. technologies that have already been. used. Same failure of TENS, although. TENS is just for pain reduction. Is that. what you have here? Yes. Yeah. So, this. one's the suit. You can make it into. bands or anything you want. I mean, that. that the key thing and the really really. clever thing that's happened here is. it's innovative in in innovative. applications of trusted technologies. These technologies are very very safe,

but they can be made to be very. effective and quite powerful. And. essentially, there's a membrane in here. This is brand new and it just got. arrived from Taiwan. And this is a next. generation suit. I've got my generation. one suit down here that I used this. morning. And this membrane's even more. effective than that one. So you've got. the membrane, you've got the waveforms. that are medical grade authored and. there that's really really important. You know, it's all about the person that. creates these waveforms that signal into.

your motor neurone points and then. you've got something called a stim which. is a. gateway. It just clicks on and you press. that button and it connects to an app on. my phone. There's banks of programs or. waveforms in my phone. They're all. different and they all communicate into. that motor neurone point and the. neuromuscular junction and they get the. action potential in the muscle to. contract. So it's 100% recruitment of.

the muscle. But the key point in this. and again when I Richard said why don't. you come in for a demonstration I said. immediately yes cuz they knew my. provenence as a SS trooper clearly they. turned it all up to about 70 and had me. running through like samurai things and. I think one of them the sort of gaming. side of things I sort of making my way. to a nuclear core and it's just getting. hit and hit further and further. uh and essentially then you've got. outwardlooking sensors that can simulate.

gunshots. So it can contract the muscles. there. Wow. So it's it's really cool, right? It's like the key point is your. neuromuscular junction. So what is this. doing? So this is affecting sending a. signal into your neuromuscular junction. in any different muscle group. And if. you look, you know, in in the suit I was. wearing this morning, there was no lower. back panel, whereas in this there's a. lower back panel. Um, now I've only got.

three stems in me. I should have four. I. usually use four because I picked up the. heart rate one that I don't use uh. instead of the fourth. I left a little. bit chaotically from the UK. But. essentially, you know, you just adapt. your stming to the muscle groups that. you want to um uh to have a have an. effect. over. And um and you can put as many on. as you like. Right. So I generally they. use four. The stems can go up six,

eight, whatever. But this suit and it. absolutely unique, right? There is. nothing in the world. Other suits have. got straps on. They're wireless. Uh. sorry, they've got wires. They've got. program stations. Generally gel pads are. used to communicate a waveform. There's. three different membranes already tested. that are even more stretchy conductive. So when you take this to a racing driver. and say look you know we can give a. beneficial waveform into your. physiology that not only conditions you.

to be stronger fitter faster in your. performance but we can actually generate. beneficial enhancements in your overall. physiology and I'll come into some of. the um I'll come into some of the case. studies we've you know I've been. involved in. um then but the art is not to say that. really really expensive racing suit. you've thought, well, you got to wear. that underneath. No, it's engineer it. into that suit. And that's what's quite. incredible. So, the adaptability of this.

platform and the applicability to all of. the different so the segments would be. specialist professions and I define. specialist professions by any profession. that challenges human biology, right? And the astronauts are the epitome of. it. The special forces communities are. really interesting set of people that. have got explosive blast going on. everything. But the astronauts go into. an atmosphere with no gravity. So. immediately it's compromising your. ability to regenerate all of your.

physiological functions, your. neuroendocrine functions like your brain. health is immediately affected. neur. neurology across your body and your. system is you're getting interference. from radiation at a cellular level and. you're in a confined environment where. you can't move properly. It's it's an. absolute now it's well known in space. travel but there's so many other ones. you know you look at um fire um uh fire.

brigade they're using breathing. apparatus that's changing you. overheating a lot of the time lots and. lots of exposure to toxicology it's very. very demanding you have to use the. stairs and carry you know so there's all. of those performance related things that. challenge human biology over time. These. are what leading to the behavioral. changes. They're leading to uh. predispions to certain diseases later on. in life and neurological conditions, right? And um uh so that's specialist.

professions. Um you've got what we call. um recreational fitness and sport. So. elite sport is in specialist. professions, right? It's a real key. definition to have. Rugby players, boxers, NFL players are quite. interested. So high performance type op. high performance you're getting paid. right totally different approach it's. not health you know you're trying to. protect health you're trying to. condition whereas in uh recreational.

sports and fitness a lot of it might be. aesthetics but essentially it's. underpinning health so uh recreational. sports and fitness you know I can see. this belonging in health clubs on. subscriptions and we've been talked to. quite a few already these are the sorts. of things that will. enhance gaming is a really really. interesting one, right? You know, like. FIFA 24. I I I name it making gaming. healthy. So, you're a teenager and. you're playing your FIFA 24. And I'm a. big advocate of gaming. Gaming is. brilliant, right? It improves acuity.

It's like they've found the beneficial. mental aspects to gaming. Like Zelda is. a lost world. You know, it's the. children can get lost in this world and. it's actually not that bad for them. Now, the aspects around social media are. totally different from what gaming is. gaming communities are pretty decent. communities to be involved. in. But you imagine if you're playing. FIFA 24, the soccer game, and someone. sort of comes in and tackles you from. the right, and you get a beneficial. stimulus into your quad and motor. neuron, you're actually generating a.

physiological function that's benefiting. interesting your brain health. Right? So, and I'll go into the mechanics of. how this works in a minute and the key. aspect of neuromuscular fun uh junctions. in a in a minute. But essentially if you. think that you can take make sleeves, you can make bands and you're really. really cheap bands, you can adapt it to. all the the different markets. And the. last one is medical therapeutic. And. this is I've got great friends who. who've got Parkinson's and I always have.

wondered you know what what led to these. neurological conditions. At some point. there was. inflammation caused by stress or caused. by some environmental factor you're. exposed to. You know, genetic. preconditions are different. I mean, let's face it, they're only percentage. points, subjective, whether that was. ever. You know, people who end up with. cancer, a lot of it is down to pure bad. luck. But you can adjust the. probabilities of your exposure, but. doesn't precondition you not to get it. This is really fascinating biology.

because I think if you look at. pharmaceuticals, they cannot, you know, I believe in the power of. pharmaceuticals and what they're doing. And interesting a lot of the new drugs. are communicating into your own systems. to say go and tell the tea cells to do. this you know carti therapies you know. get that receptor to go and enhance that. inhibit that express that rather than. interfering in the way they have done. before but what I've always remarked. about pharmaceuticals is actually. because we're individualized in our.

whole physiology and. biology we can never be sure what that. drug is doing to you. you can't be sure. you you're basically looking at um what. comes out on a conscious side. you you. there are some tests probably you can do. whereas if you look at your own. physiology and see where that can be. empowered and you use applied there's a. family of technologies and I've not come. across a lot that apply in a. non-invasive way essentially it's like.

cleaning a spark plug it's like. enhancing putting better fuel in and. what they're doing is enh in this. particular technology it's enhancing. your motor neuron points it is at a. local level uh contracting the muscle. you will see if you want 20% better. cross-sectional muscle mass, you'll get. that. You know, and I remark on it is. big muscles don't mean strong muscles. and they certainly don't mean healthy. muscles. What healthy muscles are is the. interaction between your neuron point. and the motor point. And this is what is.

absolutely critical to your nervous. system and the neuronal pathways that. are created. And it, you know, I've. always thought and again it it's a. confusing concept for me. I've like sat. down with a piece of paper and gone, you. know, go back to the work I do with the. breathing physiology. It's probably the. last aspect I'll come on to. um. is how do you get people to. understand that the power of your.

conscious mind is in no way any anywhere. near the power of your physiology itself. and your brain and your brain stem cuz. it takes over and it's trying to protect. you. You're built for survival, right? M. so when you have a shock you're actually. better off handing control back to your. kind of sort of unconscious through. human evolutionary biology it's become. highly highly tuned and your brain is.

locked up in a dark cavern and it's. receiving senses and signals that b. build up neuronal pathways and patterns. that become. preferential. Right? So when you uh. looking at what's important when you get. under stress uh so what what is the. fractions like how would you put this in. figures your conscious mind everything. that we spend so much time concentrating. on affirmations whatever you know and.

your unconscious area that's driving. your physiology and ensuring it remains. harmonious right and the. figures might as well, not worth bequing. apart from the size of them because I. came across it quite recently in a in a. news article and it gave gave the answer. right is the the thought that the the um. level of information you can process per. second consciously is 10 bits per minute.

uh per. second. I've seen the highest level of. estimation of processing thought. consciously that ability to pick up that. you know I want to do that it's become. important is 40 to 50 bits per. second the level of sensing of. information that is going into your. brain that is getting processed and. either being flagged up priority or not. at all is 100 million bits per second.

Wow. and to describe what that and you. know I've wondered about it and I've. gone how would you describe this to. people how you know by doing the wrong. breathing technique you are undermining. your physiology and if it's so long as. it's zeroed and it's functioning. properly you're far better off handing. control to that right and to describe. what that means you know that uh I don't. know it's an air conditioner isn't it. has been going on all along I've taken. that in every different texture and.

Every pattern in this room I've taken in. my brain has been processing information. on a subconscious level in a. massive volume but. consciously I've been doing an eenth. amount. I thought in visual terms what. does this look like? Is this the surface. ocean via the volume of it? I mean it's. an absolutely extraordinary fraction to. look at. Yeah. Absolutely extraordinary. And this is where I've become absolutely.

sort of firmly planted in non-invasive. technologies and technologies I'm. involved in there is really two. I'm a. data subject for one and highly involved. in this one is because I believe they. can be used very effectively. So what. what does it do? What does the suit do? So if you put the suit on, you know, and. again it depends what you want to do. with it. So are you training for you. know a performance related thing? The. suit you you put the stems onto the.

necessary muscle point put the suit on. As I say this is brand new sent over. from Taiwan by a company called Maclot. um who are um leading investors in EMS. technology and making conductive. membranes. They the company has had a. relationship with them very very whole. on and they have you know they're really. they're quite remarkable people. actually. So you You isolate muscles. Yeah. So in each each point in your. muscle, so say for instance that's your.

chest. So you put a stem on there, turn. it on. There's the other stem. And. connect. it. Turn both on. Connect it through. and it goes into your motor neuron. points of that muscle mouse and. communicates a signal. It puts like a. signal all the way through the membrane.

that releases the action potential down. the muscle. fiber. Now the bits that I'm not. interested in stronger fit faster. So. when I have my demonstration I was. immediately I'm conscious that. neurological deficit that is there and. I'm never complacent about. I don't know. what my outcome is at the moment. I've. got a lot to be thankful for, but that. doesn't mean it's good in the future. I. look I know people with like. neurological conditions that are very. very complicated for the people around. them, right? I'm not complacent about. this. Doesn't mean that I believe that. the outcome. So when I put this suit on,

I was like this is a key like driver of. your physiology or neuromuscular. junctions are the most powerful element. I know of you know that can drive brain. derived neurotrphic factors. There's. another family called gleal. salelined neurotrophic factors. There's. one I've even just learned about that. was only found in 2010 I think called. cerebral. dopamineergic uh neurotrophic factors. And all of these factors are responsible.

for removing proteins and macroofage in. your brain. Oh good. So what happens is. when that stimulus goes off, your. neuromuscular junction prompts your. muscles to release these factors into. your blood and obviously through your. blood brain barrier. That's the. individualized bit that lets the. pharmaceutical in or not. And we have. very individualized biology including. our blood brain barriers can be very. fussy. So the original principle I'm. looking at all of this technology is.

being able to press on the factors. within your own system. Okay? Your body. will work out the harmony they need to. happen but whatever's going to be. happening is going to be beneficial. Now. we can't say to what extent we'll be. successful in treating a condition but. say for instance stroke stroke is a. brilliant example of how incredibly. resilient human beings are can have. people with critical strokes. So Ellie's.

stepfather had a very bad stroke. Had to. learn to write again. Had to learn to. read again. Now lives a happy life and. all that he has is a slight deficit in. movement down his right hand side. That's an incredible example of what. your body comes back from. And uh. someone approached the company and a. neurologist, physiotherapist at the. time, she's currently stepped away from. the company and studying extreme med. which is again very exciting area.

um worked with the engineer Vincent. Telenbach who's the original author of. the the medical grade waveforms and they. were approached by someone who had a. very very bad stroke and had drop foot. So drop foot is when you don't get. clearance off the off the floor very. well and of course the key risk is not. necessarily anything other than fall. So. what follows not being able to clear. things off the foot is you have really. bad falls and you injure yourself. So.

the the neuron point that fires the foot. and I'll show you the video on my phone. of this actually happening purpose. So. the company put uh motion detecting. sensors around the gate and pressure. sensors to analyze the gate and then. worked out the timing on which to fire. the neuron using uh a stem and a band of. membrane. No one quite knew what would happen and. uh it came back to a 90% uh reaction and.

that's purely because the signal. reminded the peripheral nervous system. and rebuilt the neuronal pathway and the. central nervous system to say this must. happen and it's happening now and. incredibly only took a few weeks of. using that stimulus. A very simple thing. it's just sort of singling in saying far. now. Interesting. Yeah. So it works both. ways. There isn't like a link between. your brain, your body, your endocrine. function, and your nervous system. And. it works in in unison and harmony,

right? And what's more, they're they're. safe because when you're pressing from. the outside, everything's harmonizing. orange side. If your blood pressure has. to change, we'll come on to breathing. physiology in a minute, but remember the. taco. supercardiam slight. um change in the integrity of the heart. changes elements of your blood pressure, changes all sorts of things. heart rate. variables change all sorts of factors. that have to remain in harmony within. your physiology for things to remain. stable and. set. It's.

absolutely in tune with one another. And. when something changes like there's a. factor that comes in, it rebalances. really really effectively and really. well. when those factors are going and. going up into your brain and clearing. out sinucleine proteins and um beta. amaloid. So beta amalloid being. Alzheimer's sucleine being Parkinson's. I'm not sitting here and saying this is. solution Mhm. to Parkinson's, right? But. I do know putting deep. um implants into the brain, whilst it's.

absolutely exceptionally brilliant work, it's still like playing the piano with a. mallet, right? You're introducing a. foreign body into it. When you have to. do that, you must. But my key question. is how much more could we be doing a lot. lot earlier? 20 years usually is the. lead time. You know, there's a ton of. people out there that exhibiting. operator syndrome type symptoms that. have neurological elements to what.

they're doing. And what would happen if. we can boost their physiological. functions, not only whilst they're. serving, but you you you encourage it. And to put this in in words, I went to I. was getting on a train to London and I. bumped into someone I knew well cuz he. was a quite a famous rugby player. Um, but he didn't know me. I was just myself. from my local. club and I didn't say hello to him. because I I just was like like he gets. it all the time. But then I saw the. train was delayed and I was walking past.

the window and saw him sitting down. I. said, "Okay, well being stupid. Let's at. least go and say good morning." And I. got chatting to him and he started. talking about his. sister. His sister had a syndrome called. Guillow Barry syndrome. It's where and. no one really knows what kicks it off, but the immune system starts kind of. interfering with the peripheral nervous. system and it. starts resulting in a breakdown in motor. control. This syndrome can lock end up.

in lockedin syndrome, full paralysis. right at its worst. Sometimes it. reverses itself and sometimes it ends. with lasting consequences, deficits in. in motor. It's usually treated um. because it's essentially an autoimmune. system first by blood. transfusion. But as it happened, his. sister was pretty much immobile on the. sofa and losing mobility fast. She was. presenting to her a neurological.

consultant in a wheelchair and that was. on about September the. 23rd. I heard of it and phoned Mmes the. company and said, "Hey, could we provide. some products to this?" It happened. And. there were a load of prototypes lying. about on the uh neurologist. physotherapist floor. So I said, "Can. you send them over to me? I can drive. around this person's house. We can give. her a quick coaching course in the. simplicity of using this. We just put it. on, press the button, trust in it, and. you can do an assessment on where she.

sits." And I you know I drove around the. house took around um so um took around. uh the prototypes uh took around. downloaded the app and explained exactly. how the technology works. It. communicates waveforms into your remote. neurone points. It cannot do any harm. The risks are very well defined and it. can only do benefit. Then um Vicki so. Dr. Victoria Spartson neurologist. physotherapy at the time did a connected. on signal and did a a full assessment of.

her and then the prognosis was really. quite sort of really you know it's like. the her own neurological consultant was. saying this is really really. concerning and we left her to it said. look you know you can contact us anytime. but get on with it and uh she started. using it and within a week she could get. up off the sofa unassisted. Wow. And. within two weeks she was sending videos. of her walking to the pub with her. family. Most significantly in four weeks.

her neuro neurological consultant and. her neurohysio team signed her off to. drive and go back to work. Now roughly. at the time when we introduced the. technology to try and help. She had a. second blood transfusion. The first. blood transfusion hadn't worked for. whatever reasons. Whatever it was, a. combination of the blood. transfusion and the helpful beneficial. stimulus acting as a catalyst or a. solution, we're not sure. Right. Her. neurological consultant and neurohysio.

was off to meet us. They've described. her recovery which was a month. So, a. month to get signed off back to work. Wow. She's an incredible woman. How. often did she have to how long did she. have to we you know so this lady is and. this is an important point as well. So I. think she was using it every day and. just went for it right and every day for. how long we gave her bands and you know. for a month and she kept on using it and. she described herself as back to 95%. What I'm asking is how many how long.

does she wear did she wear it all day? Did she wear it for an hour in the. morning? I'd have to explore that. I. think she wore it for hours at the time, like one hour at a time. When she was. immobile on the sofa, she really had. nothing else to do and so constantly. constantly waking it all back up. Remind. How long do you wear for um so it. interchanges the beauty of technology it. work with you, right? So it's just going. to do whatever you do. Uh we have. experts. So Owen Laces is the program. development expert. He's a leading coach. in the RS um sports institute. quite a.

famous um sport sports performance well. performance expert. He's got his own. sort of sort of studies and casework. So. he formats formulates the program. development. So you can just do. programs. So I've got 80-minute. programs, 35minute programs, all. different waveforms. This morning I was. on capillarization because it's quite. nice massaging and I didn't want to. absolutely wear myself out for this. So. it's really I'll come on to how I've. sort of lined up for this as well. because it's is part a very very.

important part of this. So it really. kind of sort of just works with you and. interestingly I'm testing hypothesis in. my head cuz your body only regenerates. and repairs when you're asleep. So is. there a waveform we can write where you. just wear a set of pajamas and just. buzzes away very very nicely for you. because if it's generating beneficial. factors you know is there a further. repair element I have to talk to Vincent. you know I'm not a biologist very. interesting I'm just quite perceptive. and I've done all this by reading books.

I love books what have you noticed so I. mean I've and I don't use it all the. time I have weeks off without using it. and then I use it for concentrated. periods and I've used used it in the. days I've arrived since Nashville cuz I. don't want to I want to tune out of the. the weariness of travel. I've also. tested it very very hard, you know, cuz. I'm very very interested and as I say, I'm like this really the way I am. valuable is by supporting other people's. casework and I'm a good minion to use.

I've got an understandable about history. that comes with some expos well. irrefutable exposure and expected. challenges you know and this is why the. people I'm coming on to are come to. um so the the date is quite precious but. I've gone out myself you know I'll go. running in it and I just tune it in and. a lot of time I just leave it off you. know this suit has just arrived from. Taiwan as I've said made handmade by. Malot's team um and you know.

They're an incredible team. You know, they're experts in conductive membranes. and uh they've made this beauty league. on this. This is the next generation up. from the one. So, I'm super excited to. turn it on. I reckon this is like a bit. of a sewing machine. Yeah. You imagine. if this is if you made this all informed. and you say gave it to people exposed to. certain environmental factors that are. going to challenge them. Just a. beneficial stimulus is keying off. outward-looking sensors. You imagine the. the benefit for training simulation know.

proximity you were to a blast and you. get a contract in you know the. applications are really very very broad. if you think about them they're. applicable to all human beings but. particularly ones who are mobile so if. you got people who are mobile and. waiting for an operation you need to. drop their weight you need to do. whatever okay what's the waveform for. that I'm not saying this technology is a. panacea but you start combining these. families of technologies up and they. start becoming un in unison quite.

powerful and the case work we've got and. I I can go into lots there's a NASCAR uh. racing driver who's still racing because. of the use of the technology. Wow. And. she is offered to do a like she she's. done like a run of a recording of her. particular case. Now there's lots and. lots of case work now. What's the name. of the company? So Mmes Group A B is. this company. Now they're Swedish. company by heart, but they're kind of. sort of mixed in everywhere. Vincent. Telenbach is an amazing engineer,

incredible, he's got 30 years, just. under 30 years experience writing these. waveforms and works incredibly closely. with Imperial College. So these. waveforms alongside other types of. signaling cuz your body's all told. electric, right? And so these waveforms, if you pick the right ones, you can init. initiate some really really clever. changes. How powerful they'll be are. actually up to your individualized. biology. It's guess work from the. outside, but it's going to be.

beneficial. And my original hypothesis. and it probably starts with the fact. that I've got close friends with. Parkinson's and you see the conditions. that they face on bad days, you know, days when the weather's not good, you. know, and somehow finding something that. can happen before you have to resort to. the invasive. procedures is only going to be good. And. it has to be, you know, for me and. technology has to be accessible. In.

order to be accessible, it has to be. affordable. and it needs to be made available to. those that will benefit from it. Talking. about this technology, this will be. quite expensive, but it's the preserve. of specialists and people who want to. spend a lot of money on their sports, recreational, fitness. How much does one. of those cost? Well, it's previously on. the market. And you remember that you've. got this that can actually be made for. you've upscale the production of this. This actually can be made extremely. cheaply and but the overall product.

involves an app involves potentially a. subscription. It depends what you're. asking for. Is it a bank of programs or. expertly. written? Um but when it comes down to. providing it for medical use case or. therapeutic cases, it can be made to be. really cheap. Now once you get into the. scaling up of this, you can make. accessories. the box of accessories I've. used and I, you know, I'll show you some. videos afterwards of some of the stuff. we've took into Ukraine to help with the. war injured there. And they're just. simple.

pads. They're, you know, they're not. unique to the company. There's only a. few companies that do do it, but I've. got a uh an app on my phone. They've got. banks of programs. So, is it a licensing. fee for some customers? You know, the. good thing about the product is it's. built up over, you know, you look at the. the number of touch points, right? If. you just need the membrane because you. want to do an incredible line in sports, but it's a little bit more expensive, an.

elite running. range, just need the membrane. Yeah. Put. it in your own, you know, and you know, I have not yet come across a garment. that has an active technology in it. There's lots that inform, you know, I've. done bio feedback assessments now with. various bits that get pinned onto you. I. have not yet come across a viable. um garment that has an active technology. in it that can act on you, you know. So, I think this is very much the start of.

looking at these non-invasive. technologies, all of which risks can be. defined. They're really quite they're. very safe and they they're born out of. medical markets with the EMS family tens. actually they shouldn't be. like put under the same sort of. discretions under sort of FDA. certification as other things because. they are enacting on your own biology. and physiology and and I noted in one of. the previous podcasts you the I think.

it's an executive order or something. about make your own mind up you know. it's about medical things that people. can opt for. I might be getting this. slightly wrong, but you know, it's. people's own choice to get involved with. certain technologies. Now, if you've got. Will and Barry syndrome, got. neurological condition where you think, do you know what? There's nothing to. lose in getting on with this, go ahead. with it. Go ahead with it cuz it's. non-invasive and the risk can be very. very well defined, you know, and if it. does small amounts of good, so be it.

Yeah. But in the cases we've used and we. can see it actually is quite powerful. and especially in combination with other. things as well. Very interesting. Yeah. And it's that key thing. Right. So how. do people find it? So at the moment the. the Gen One that I've got here, we've. taken that off and we're consolidating. that and we're making it as a a preserve. to support war injured. At the moment, the garment itself is is nowhere near as.

good as this one. Mhm. So, I think at. the moment, the strategy will be to work. business to business and work with. special specific. Okay. So, this would. go to this would this would go an. individual cannot purchase us. This. would go to not right now. They could. have done the older one, but actually. we're in a much much better spot. So, this company I've been, you know, I've. been involved in the company on paid for. 3 years. absolutely loved it right you. know at the end of the day I really.

really believe in this human performance. health and technology is something I. would be a pleasure to be involved in it. for the next 10 20 years right it's. could be that thing you know comes with. a risk these sorts of companies do sell. through but in this particular case I've. witnessed what they're prepared to do. over the last eight years and all of the. finance has gone back into development. the product and they're actually in a. really really prime position to um enact. this on certain markets and the more. difficult markets like specialist.

professions and medical therapeutic. they're going to take more time. You. need certifications for medical. therapeutic uh to use it to its sort of. more heightened abilities. Um principles. of it couldn't be more simple as we've. talked about. It's an acting on your. innovative muscle and it's promoting. physiological harmony as well as helping. you train and be strong or whatever you. want to do. create lean muscle mass, lose improve cardio, whatever it is, there's a program that can be formed.

with waveform where that can play a. part. Um, so is there any for somebody. that wants to use this, how would they. get their hands on one? So I think that. comes quite quickly hopefully in the. next few months. Um, the company is in a. position where it can scale up. um a new. set of these have been made for trials. and testing to certain sort of people at. the moment. Um we're talking to a. company about potentially um an. agreement where you know this would be.

made available to their customers cuz. what you're looking at is the first. instance of an integrative tech. technology being part of a garment which. is quite an exciting thing and you can. see where this can sort of really be. very very effective. Very interesting. Um you know when it comes to sports and. recreational fitness you can sell it to. individuals but actually it's probably. better done through professional sports. and health clubs you know first as a. subscription model whatever then. there'll be some instruction you know.

you don't need instruction you can just. put this on and use it and the programs. are set with protocols in it which. ensure that you can't really mess it up. although guess what your body does a. really good job of protecting itself. anyway so if you choose to kind of sort. of choose just to sort of really sort of. go offline with it. You can't really do. it because your body will say, "No, no, I don't don't really like that." But, you know, some education and some. built-in protocols are necessary in any. uh uh technology, especially when you.

can never compensate for, you know, the. random choices that people can make. Um, but essentially the risks are ratheris. and I've looked in all of these. different cases and you can give it from. training. So you can do it from negative. risk. It's uh it's not very often at. all. It's certainly in my view not made. more likely because of the use of. technology, but it's a declared use. So. if you do incredibly hard negative reps.

in um CrossFit movements for instance, you can overwork your muscles. Mhm. So. all of those protocols are built into. the programs already. Interesting. Introductory use. But that's actually. you know for programs like this that. once you know and this is what we hope. to do is is transform it into a number. of markets but really the true value is. in the medical and therapeutic world you. know and that is going to be a a longer. piece of work but it's already been. happening already you know Vincent. Telenbach is the incredible person.

really behind the design and engineering. of all of this you know the company has. now taken it on to make it something. that can be made accessible and. available ailable to people. Incredible. companies like Macalot are able to make. garments like this. The next one is. incredibly well engineered. It's got. like glimpmphatic drainage built into. textiles and stuff. I mean, it's almost. unnecessary overengineer. I think it's. going to be to kind of kind of prove a. point. This is the generation that.

could, you know, fly. It's got a more. conductive membrane than the one I use. And I haven't used this yet, so I'm. gonna enjoy seeing what that that feels. like and looks like. Um, but again, you. know, it's um the key one is to to. to technology is useful if it's. available to people. And in order to do. that, you have to be have to be an. adaptable product that can be made, you. know, affordable to people in whatever. markets you're moving into. And, you. know, you can have a massively. engineered thing because your needs and.

requirements are around a profession. You can have a very very simple thing. that has a membrane that delivers. something much less complicated in terms. of waveform but it's generating what you. need underpinning health man this is. hand inhand then um with um so on. a I went down to snow there's um an ex. former colleague is actually from um um. from the SPS called Gary. Bford and he formed a company called.

Geratus and he asked me to come and. speak to his um the people that were on. a walk around Snowonia and during that. walk round I met a gentleman called uh. Dylan Mai. Now Dylan Mai is an. ex-performance expert from New Zealand. but at heart he's um army technicians. officer, arms weapons technicians. officer EOD at disposal and he's become. central in breathing physiology and when. when I met him you know and immediately. you know when you can tell that. someone's really really interesting and.

uh and not only really well centered but. there's expert knowledge. there and I started talking to him he. said you know you willing to become a. data subject for us uh and I said well. you know why are you interested and he. said because you you you know we know. your background but you present very. normally and so we wouldn't mind seeing. your physiology you know through. breathing cap. capnography which measures the atosis.

the chemical quaxis levels in your. tissues through breathing. It checks. whether you're hypercatenic, so low CO2. levels, so it affects your oxygen uptake. or not. So obviously willingly agreed. It sounds like an amazing opportunity to. me. One thing I've learned in this. transition process is size up. opportunity as in why I'm being asked. because if it makes sense, take it and. it's by like having that attitude. towards these I've become involved in. these technologies. So I started.

building up a baseline in technology an. understanding of my own breathing. physiology with Dylan Mai looks at all. my data and goes you know and I started. then finding out what resonance. breathing frequency is and are you aware. of resonance breathing frequency so. resonance breathing frequency is. essentially what people are trying to. achieve by box breathing. Oh good but. it's very indiv individualized to you. So and that's a point where you can get. amplitude in the harmony of your. physiological function. So you can.

empower it. So when people are doing. these breathing techniques, they're. doing quite an inaccurate way of what. this capnography will do which will show. you mine for instance is four. So and. the bracket is 4.5 to six breaths per. minute. So that shows you how. individualized it is. But it took an. expert to look in and say actually yours. is four. But once you get it right, your. physiology becomes very very powerful. and reenters itself. So feelings of. anxiety dissipate. And the the scientist.

behind all of this is a guy called Dr. Peter Lichfield who. invented this which is the. catraph. And it's a clever box again I. used this morning. Um and uh I don't do. you know I'm basically getting enough. sessions to inform uh Dylan Mai's work. but also I'm benefiting from all the. expert knowledge that is coming back and. essentially it's uh you wear a heart. rate monitor uh you put the nasal canula.

in and this clever box here uh measures. the aosis levels and your breathing. rates to see what your entital CO2 is. and obviously if it's too low then you. will be out of kilter and this is where. some of the behaviors so they're very. involved with uh operator syndrome I. think they've been quite involved with. um I think it's Dr. Chris F's work. and uh they're quite well advanced and.

breathing physiology anyone who uses. breathing apparatus like some divers. barrier should this this should be. absolutely baked into their sort of. rekey process but actually it's very. fundamental to a lot of other people as. well so again I'm working very hard with. them and through that process and Dylan. Mai is utterly fascinating it's almost. like my therapy going on to session and. that's where we worked out right he said. look at Yeah. Yeah. Um, yes. So, please, there's the naval.

canyon and uh the pulsar that we and I. never realized the complication of each. breath processes and uh and you get a. graph. So, I plugged this in and put. that little um uh thumb drive. Yeah. Thumb drive into your laptop. You know, I was doing it this morning in the gym. because I did one of Scott Sonnen's. regimes. um in order to prepare myself. You know, you know, I'm interested in seeing, you. know, certain different types of.

workouts prepare yourself in certain. ways. And I had quite an interesting. experience doing this. Um but in all of. this, I'm measuring my physiology and. giving Dylan that data and he's able to. see one, he's said, right, you you know, your physiology is centered, right? So, you're not traumatized by anything. We. know that, you know, you're you're. although you're ladened with the normal. stresses of life, you're not out of. kilter, right? So that's that's an. important thing to know because if.

people are and I think this originally. started a long long time ago with Dr. Peter Lichfield identifying that. dysfunctional breathing behaviors had an. association to epilepsy. Yeah. And it's. like sort of unregulated. neurotransmission. So again it's all it's all has relevance. in any of those environmental factors. explosive blast exposure you know stress. loads absolute um direct relevance to. all of this to rezero it's like again.

that analogy with a site your body. physiology is your most powerful aspect. of how you remain good and centered. affects all of your all of your. behaviors but essentially you know. martial artists used to do meditation. and that was their way of studying it. and getting this centrality around. physiology. Well, now we have a. technology and plug it into a laptop. You can see and like last night I went. on my breathing resonance frequency. which had made amplitude for my. physiology. So if I was going to sleep.

well, I definitely knew it was then I. didn't well I did sleep well. I just. didn't sleep very long which happens. Um. so uh but you know that that in itself. is a reassurance. You know, I'm in tune, right? I'm in tune. So, ready for this? What becomes even more exciting is, you. know, I've just done their bio feedback. They use something called Splendo. Health, which is a platform for testing. your cardio cardiorespiratory fitness, but also your cognitive abilities. And.

so, I I drove down to Dylan's house and. we went on a salt bite. Did a series of. cognitive tests. doesn't take very long, but I was fitted with um um monitors to. measure oxidation in my tissues, so my. quad and in my um prefrontal cortex. I. measured the heart rate variables, measure all sorts of stuff in the bio. feedback, and I've got a report back. And remembering this is not to prove I'm. some sort of superhuman athlete cuz I'm. not. And you know, I live life in a very.

kind of balanced and natural way. I. don't make deliberately unhealthy. choices. But I think part of life is. making realistic propositions to people. that can fit around how they need to. lead. No, no one could be in the gym at. 4:00 every morning. And if you do, you're probably cancelelling out. relationship you really cared about as. well. And there's nothing more annoying. You know, one of the speaking things I. do is like high performance, not high. maintenance. No one wants to know you've. had an ice bath. Yeah. Like this morning. or if you didn't sleep well, how you.

won't be able to work effectively. You. know, it's like you become awful. And. you know, going on to ice baths, cold. water therapy works, right? Initiates. metabolic change. This all stands up. People live in thermal neutral. environments too much. But why you need. to go out and buy a $400 ice bath and I. implore people not to jump in ice baths. You know, it shocks your system. 18. autonomic sets of muscles around your. heart. Now, if you want to have cold. water therapy, best way to do it is one.

you have a bath in your house usually, but even in the shower, have a normal. shower and then just gently turn the. cold water down. And that's why you're. you're not setting your sympathetic. nervous system off against your. parasympathetic. It's quite a dangerous. thing to do because your physiology is. trying to take over. If you dunk. yourself into very cold ice water, elite. athletes do this to do something else. with their muscles. Unless you're. training for an elite competition, you. just want to initiate healthy metabolic.

change at a cellular level. So all of. these sort of lifestyle theories that. are pushed and all become almost. cultlike in their kind of sort of way of. commercialization. You must be one of. these and this is the result. No, it's a. mixture and they don't have to be. severe. And some of the advice that's. given down at sort of local level, local. gym level in small towns is really quite. sort of horribly inaccurate. I don't. think it's intentional. So these. breathing techniques, you know, the.

first thing to ask of the breathing. technique is how do you know if it's in. tune with your indiv individualized. breathing? You don't know your resonance. breathing frequency. Well, you can these. days you can plug yourself into a. technology. Yeah. And have an expert. look at it over the cloud and they say, "Yeah, you're in tune. I reckon it's. 4.5. Tweak it. Tweak it. Tweak it. Um, so it's a fascinating area of work. Now, Dylan Mai, so going back to what I'm. really really interested in is how do I. now train and activate my physiology to. protect myself from neurological deficit.

that may or may not be there probably is. there right you've had lots of. exposure. So Dylan Mai works very. closely with Scott Sonnen and uh I. didn't know much about Scott Sonnen. first but I've looked a little bit into. his history which is utterly incredible. to be honest. You know he's got a. lifetime history that people understand. um and he you know he's a being a. professional fighter. He's a master of. sport but he works closely with Dr. Peter Lichfield on breathing physiology.

also and it's in close partnership with. Dylan Mai actually been invited to be a. demonstration model on one of their. webinars. But so I looked in the first. thing Dylan McAde sent me was a a. program uh of Scott Sonuman's theory on. how to adapt exercise to tune yourself. in for instance creative thinking and. thought but gives the reasons. why and this is exactly you know when. you come across someone who's an expert.

and all of a sudden the jigsaw puzzle. keeps coming starts patterning together. So all of a lot of the research work. I've done, you know, has been AI models. asking them more and more precise search. words to paint dots together, but. essentially you're sort of passionate. together with interaction with experts, books and um online learning, you know, because I I you know, I can't go to. university. Actually, I don't think I'd. have this approach if I did. Mhm. And.

Scott Sonnen's. work really really underpinned it. because what Scott Sonnen's work is is. how to modulate exercise. First of all. address exercise. Exercise is actually. some sort of proxy in human evolutionary. biology for exertion. You need to exert yourself in one way or. another. Challenge and form uh movements. through your neuromuscular junctions. that keep your your body your brain. being part of your body healthy and safe.

and your physiology is intuitive and. adapts to that. And what Scott Sonnen's. programs is looking directly at that and. it's fascinating. And there's something. called the Goldilock zone of moderate to. high intensity. um sessions. So, some are 20 minutes, some are 10 minutes. So, Dylan's been. setting me these cuz I'm actually really. interested. Like, how creative am I? So, I've been tuning in for this. I don't. know how creative. Waiting for some I. don't know, some some some um uh.

confirmation or not right. I did three. sessions running up to this and I got. one completely wrong and I overexerted. and went into stress and I could feel my. body is kind quite stressed. I added. weight into it, which they're usually. body weight. But the core concept is. complex movement. So movement is. described as complex if it moves through. four sets of different muscles, neuromuscular junctions. And your. central nervous system will then. recognize this as a pattern that is.

beneficial and generate these factors. that I've alluded to, these family of. gal cells that will move through your. vascular system up into your blood brain. and activate in order to create um. stronger neuronal pathways. And your. brain. is everyone talks about brain. plasticity. You've got neurology. plasticity throughout your system. and. it consciously adapts and changes to. everything you've done. So you can. programmatically strengthen pathways in.

a conscious way. And this really really. started interesting me because you end. up asking any question you go back to. the original solutions with your. physiology, right? You need to just need. to know how to empower it and what Scott. Sonnen's work does this. And if you do. patterns of complex movement so I do. every minute on the minute um sessions. for 20 minutes. I did one of those today. and it's just a complex movement that. enacts those systems then not only is. your brain far more creative for periods.

of time. Um and the benefits of doing it. are huge but there the family of gal. cells is aststerytes. oligodendrittes and gal cells themselves. of which then they're further defined. and they all have slightly different. roles. So astroytes do lots of stuff but. essentially keep keep the dendritic the. forest of sort of dendritic connections. that can form up into new neural. connections. Axons are what join those. synapsis those dendritic ends together.

What happens in Scott Sonen's particular. regime for Goldilock zone for instance. is it keyly activates oligodendrites. that create myation of the axon. So when. you talk about my linear axon, it's. conductive wrapping around the axon that. strengthens the signal. So it. strengthens neuronal pathway. So when. you're looking at these experts and. again the academics probably been. sitting on these answers for ages but.

they haven't put the dots together in. terms of application but this is where. experts like Scottson Son and Dylan can. make a huge amount of difference and you. know the work is already there. So using. and again it struck me that people. struggle to compensate for the. challenges of their professions. challenges of their lives. The rates of. Parkinson's are flying up, right? So, we. can't say do better. Either lifestyle. doesn't allow you to. The commitments.

you have done do not allow you to exert. yourself to a relevant level or there's. preconditions in which you can't. Whatever it is, these non-invasive. technologies can pick up a lot of the. slack and they can perform a lot of the. mitigation for it. And that this is I. think quite important because I always. work off the premise and again going. back to grill and barry syndrome there's. a certain factor an element of factors. that have to be involved which is expert.

knowledge willing patient or subject. mindset and applied technology and it. doesn't we don't know what that applied. technology is until we know the problem. Yeah. But there's a set of them and they. all signal in and key off your home. biological function. So go back to the. lady had guil Barry syndrome. Expert. knowledge is fundamental and key came. from the neur neurologist consultant. neurohysia team and um Victoria Sparks. She did the assessment said this is how. I use technology. But I would suggest.

that the most powerful element of that. was that willing mindset and that. enacted on her system itself and the. applied technology gave it a real. kickstart like a jump start and once it. gets that message it repatterns that. neuronal pathway very very quick. So, going back to Duncan Slater, right? Duncan Slater, the WMT I met uh I. mentioned earlier, he's had some. problems uh with his injuries previously.

and he's got some vascular shutdown. that's happening. Um so I introduced. Duncan to uh MSE group as a. company and um really just to you know. see if technology the complexities. around the injuries are really quite. considerable and you know and I'll come. on to the unbroken foundation in a. minute once people become have limbs. amputated you know the the trauma around.

the thing I think we've covered right. that's going to be a deeply traumatic. experience But humans will get beyond. that, right? The complexities around the. injury are far more consequential. because you're at biomechanical. disadvantage driving your own. physiology. And if you think if it's one. leg, the amount of movement you depend. upon and how much that's enacting on. your overall system. So you have to find. mitigations. So Duncan Slater, he's an. incredible person. He's a speaker as.

well, a huge huge character. And um he's the only ampute to ever done. the marathon disarmed and he's done it. three times and he finished it once and. uh yeah exactly he's absolutely. brilliant and uh he he got his stumps. made sorry his prosthetics made for. himself because the ones he got given. and melted and debrided his whole area. of his stumps on the first attempt. because of the heat right and you know I.

won't speak too much on behalf of him He. is just an incredible person. So, he's. now getting a bespoke suit made for him. by the same people that have made this. Oh, cool. Um because in the use of the. technology, we've seen his vascular. system open back up. But also, if you. think about phantom pain in that cavern. that's in there getting fed 100 million. bits of information per second, when. something crisis happens, your.

consciousness isn't powerful enough to. get that to make sense. Right? If you. put signals through neuronal pathways in. a localized area, it remaps them. Wow. Therefore, you can deal with phantom. pain. Wow. which is Has he tried this. yet? So he's he's got at the moment he's. got pads, gels, straps. He's used it. quite a lot. It's open. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And um you know at the end of the. day he's got this problem because they. went to see a consultant about this. vascular shutdown and you know these.

consultants used to dealing with people. 8-year-old hearts. He said well it. sounds like we're going to have to cut. more off. Mhm. And Duncan was. like, "You may as well throw the. prosthetics in the. bin." You know, Duncan's. in he a single gentleman in Italian shed. made his six which he then went and. completed the marathon desalon, you. know. So we're going to do a lot of case.

work now around Duncan. uh to ensure that you know the. technology will make massive amount of. remap pathway is building vascular um. access back already doing a really good. job in a very simplified form. So if you. make it powerful as this sort of thing. know the coverage of the membrane is. much much bigger and because it's so. effective the membrane the waveforms are. so intuitive it's like a sewing machine. you know if you compare some of the EMS.

products they're like come through gel. pads it's like getting hit with hammer. you know and you know again that's how. some of them been built you know they're. like suits of armor with big straps and. all the rest of it this thing is is is. much much more intuitive and the aim is. to get this sewing machine to turn into. a 3D printer at some point right in. concert with all of the others. know. what we're excited about with Dylan Mai. is I'm going to start introducing other. technologies MS being very central run.

because I'm very very familiar with it. but not ruling out others and going and. doing these bio feedback platforms and. mapping the physiological adaptations. you know this is really exciting case. studies that we can do we can do them. quite simply it's got willing human. beings that want to be involved there's. plenty of research that shows. neuromuscular electro stimulation builds. back axal regeneration some of the. consequences being too near to explosive. blast of which the mechanism is there's. lots of water in your head and uh as the.

wave hits your skull and goes through. the water cannot move out of the way and. it creates a turbulence uh it makes a. shearing mechanism between the gray and. white matters right and it creates a. legioning amongst other things right and. your brain is extremely good at. regenerating itself and I think in when. the winds are fair people keep up with. that deficit. Mhm. But when they're not. so fair, so they do less. exertion, they in a worse place, it can.

c it's like a bow wave catching up. Yeah. And it's not a precondition, right? So there's plenty of research. mainly from the medical world that shows. that neuromuscular electro stimulation, electro stimulation around the base of. your CNS can reverse an episode of. depression on the dot. Wow. cuz it just. promotes factors, right, that you you. rely on every day. And um this is, you. know, these simple things can act in. concert with all of the.

incrediblely advanced things that are. happening on Yeah. Um so, you know, and. um so I'll come on to Ukraine, you know, so again, I was introduced to a person. called Liam Sullivan. He has a a charity. page called Tackling Matters. It's quite. a new one and essentially he's been. going in and out Ukraine for a long. period of time. He's quite famous for. providing 140 pairs of socks to a. frontline unit in during winter. I mean. it's pretty tough for him and I got a.

just a call because people knew that I. was in and out of Kiev quite a lot. um. saying you know if this guy needs help. or would you be welcome to meet since. meeting him um I realized he's very. involved with um putting in football. pitches and creating a football. tournament in concert with Champions. League clubs and premiership clubs. because a lot of the premiership clubs. have amput teams and Parkinson's teams. as well you know they have community. hubs that are very very powerful so I. came into contact with him and obviously.

as you look at this the relevant. technologies This is extremely important. when you're reh this type of technology. is extremely important when you're. rehabilitating conflict injured and. Ukraine has a problem right has a. problem in complexity of its injuries. and volume of its injuries right a lot. of them are amputations and almost all. have some sort of neurological. conditions so when we last visited um. unbroken foundation we took them some. bare elements you know and uh obviously.

a lot of these people are were amputes. and we're turning up with suits with. arms and legs on them. You know, they. kind of looked at us quite quizzically. Yeah. We gave them accessories instead. and they're using the accessories and. again I'll share some videos with you. The accessories are incredibly good and. powerful because again at the end of. these traumatic amputation sites. um they are using them to reactivate. muscles and you know again a lot of. these people have got some very very.

complex this is working for them. Sorry, this is Yeah. So, the initial sort of. feedback we had is is really really. overwhelming. I think it's probably. because it's so accessible. It's very. very easy to use. It's not complicated. They're treating like I I forget the. numbers, but they're treating a huge. volume of patients. But this also has an. association. They're using a lot of, you. know, I saw some of the pictures. They. they call it bringing it back to color. They get these people. Some have been. held captive. a lot of them.

traumatically injured and they do this. exercise of getting them to do art and. it's been incredible insight into how. they treat uh these people try and get. them back to a stable life and you know. for instance in week one they'll only. use red and black and that's a picture. into how your mind's working but when. they start using color you're seeing. things so they're very very developed in. how they're kind of sort of treating. therapeutically and and injurywise these. people and sport is a a key art to it.

So Liam has started up this ampute. football tournament. Uh the first one. was in Arsenal training facilities. The. second one has just happened and it's in. uh it's been it was held at Sandhurst. Oh, cool. Yeah, it was very cool. And uh. we had some quite sort of I I I've got. to emphasize I'm a friend of Liam's. right. You know, I support him wherever. I possibly can, but it's his thing. the. the the football tournaments is him and. he does some other incredible work in.

particular with associations like. Unbroken. Um it's really cool. Yeah. So, and it's it's a powerful message, right? You know, it's like conflict is an. inevitability in life. It's going to. happen and in some cases the outcomes. are pretty testing. Yeah. But watching. these amputees and they are athletes, right? they're treated as athletes. playing football tournaments, you know, looking at some of the prophsis that. they're having and some of the. innovative machine learning that's.

happening around. I I saw, you know, a. person picking up a paper cup and. teaching. Wow. It's absolutely. brilliant. You know, you're looking at. these people and there's no element of. feeling sorry. You know, you're like, wow. You know, you need some support. Yeah. You need if you can get made. available technologies and a digital. platform for support, you can go take. this. home. You're already just, you know, the. the the powerful message is getting. these people regardless of the. consequences of the participation, the.

conflict is incredibly important. You. know, it should be celebrated as well. when it's successful. And these are. complicated programs, but they're all. important ones and accessible. So the. role these types of technologies will. play in that are very fundamental and. key especially when. porcity around treatment and resources. are very they're quite few. Yeah. And I. can't remember the figures that Ukraine. are looking at they've got a big volume. of war. injured but I think you know it's.

something like you know in a developed. nation you got 15 per 100,000 physios. whereas they have less than 0.8. Wow. So, but what they are is gaining an. extremely. advanced insight into how to treat these. um treat these things. That's really. cool. Yeah. And I just hope that you. know that comes to a close and people. can concentrate on football tournaments. and building these pitch. I think Liam's. putting 47 Astro pitches into the. country since that football tournament.

But I really did sort of take note like. that in the incredible role that. technology can play with applied. applications. So you know I hope that. this all transforms into something that. moves. Um you know we we we've locked. into it. I've looked looked how the. company behaves. They you know spending. money on back into the development. They're in an absolutely superb position. and I have every faith that we'll we'll. kind of see this through. I think the.

next few months are going to be pretty. pretty sort of tight testing, but it it. is definitely an area of considerable. value and purpose. And so in the central. point in where I got involved in this, it's sort of made its way through to. making some sense and that's been. participating alongside people like. Dylan Mai and it's been good for me. I've learned a huge amount and you know. go back to what's a successful. transition look like? Well, I'm. definitely not an example of it right. now, but if you learn, you develop, and.

essentially you support other people's. really credible work. I think there's. pathways there at least. So, well, John, I love what you're doing, man, and this. has been a fascinating conversation. And, uh, where can people find you? Um, so I have a LinkedIn site, which is my. main site. um you know from previous. profession there's not much before that. um I also have an Instagram site and um.

you know I'll be very very happy to. share uh and um you know I'll be. contactable through those mediums and. very very happy to to help anyone well. we'll link those below and uh I just. want to say thank you again for coming. and thank you real pleasure thank. [Music]. No matter where you're watching Shawn.

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