John Burke - What Happens When We Die? | SRS #111

[Music]. John Burke welcome to the Sha Ryan Show. hey Sean thanks so much for having me on. and uh hey thank you for serving our. country oh thank you for saying that and. for all who who watch who have done so. thank you so much appreciate it but um. so you kind of came on my radar I uh we. had spoken at breakfast about uh about a. year ago I had.

had a I feel like I got slapped in the. face by God in a good way and um sent me. down my journey to Faith and um in that. Journey I'm always I'm always looking. for more proof right and uh I don't know. if that's everybody but I'm always. looking for more proof and so I started. I'd heard about Lee strobel's book. um um case for Christ case for Christ. he's a good friend yeah and and.

I'm not I'm going to be honest I'm not. much of a reader so I watch the movie. that's not the same at all sorry and um. but I I watched the movie and then I. watched there was a documentary that he. did after that I think it was called. case for heaven and that's oh I was in. that exactly that's where you popped up. on my radar you were talking about. near-death. experiences and I've had a number of. guests on the show that have had uh. near-death experiences in combat and.

what you were talking about on that. documentary really I I it sent me down. another rabbit hole and so then I. started looking into near death. experiences and um and and just some of. the stuff some of your talks online and. some of the stuff that you've been um. going on about over the past 35 years I. believe I'm not mistaken well it's been. it's been that long that I've been. researching and um and I know you tie in.

some science and and it's I think we're. all looking for more proof right and uh. I don't know if that ever stops I'm like. I said I'm new in this journey but. that's what kind of keeps me going yeah. is the symbology things that are. happened that have already been written. the near-death experience stuff that you. talking about is really fascinating me. and um and uh so anyways I'm just really. excited that you're here and and uh I've.

been looking forward to this interview. for quite a while well I'm honored I'm. honored to be here thank you thank you. but um we'll start you off with an. introduction here real. quick so John Burke you're a patch. you're a pastor and author a New York. Times. best-selling author uh with the book. imagine heaven where you discuss near. death experiences in your new book. imagine the god of Heaven near death. experience is that your latest book that.

you've written uh your previous books. include unshockable love Soul. Revolution and no perfect people allowed. you are the founding pastor of Gateway. Church in Austin Texas you and your wife. Kathy started the church 26 years ago. and uh as we discussed at breakfast you. had just passed the Baton on and uh. you're moving on to other things writing. correct writing speaking talking about.

this yeah yeah so congratulations you've. analyzed over 1,000 near-death. experiences and have 35 plus years of. research you're the president of Gateway. leadership. initiative which is a nonprofit can you. go into that a little bit if you don't. mind yeah well um it's part of what we. talked about at at breakfast that when. we started Gateway Church it was to to. provide a place for people like I was.

which we can get into but I was a. skeptic you know I I was I was an. engineer before I became a pastor so. I've always been like how do you. know the Blind Faith thing that didn't. really work for me yeah you know like I. I can have faith we all have faith but I. need I need a little evidence and um so. we started Gateway Church for people. like me so our our motto was no perfect. people allowed doubters are welcome just. come as you are and and turns out there.

are a lot of people like that you know. who maybe either have been burned by. church or um they're curious they have a. lot of questions but not a place to. wrestle with it or or a lot of struggles. and you know um Church wasn't a safe. place to be honest about addictions or. struggles or you know marital struggles. whatever you know there's there's plenty. right yeah so Gateway leadership. initiative was um an organization I.

started that helped uh equip leaders uh. really in understanding that the the. forming of the. culture really affects how you live out. your mission I mean you know that right. I I'm sure in SEAL Teams the culture. that gets created uh is is key to how. that team performs yeah and so similar. thing of uh of leadership to to be able. to start.

churches that would actually help people. in a culture so I ended up traveling to. 30 different countries speaking to. leaders all over the world wow um about. 100,000 leaders all over the world about. that how long have you been doing that. uh 27 years wow that's. incredible um you're an international. speaker you've addressed hundreds of. thousands of people in 30 countries on. leadership spiritual growth and the exil. erating life to.

come you're married to Kathy you have. two grown children two granddaughters. and you are a former agnostic. engineer missing anything. no um well like I said John I'm really. excited uh to dig in here I got a couple. of questions that don't really fit into. my interview flow so I'm just going to. ask him real quick uh right here at the. very beginning but you.

now like I had mentioned I'm recent I'm. I'm new to Faith and uh about a year in. and and um you know one of the things I. started going to church then we kind of. stopped and we do it at our house now as. I was explaining to your breakfast but. you know I'm noticing this massive wave. of people kind of coming to Christ it. seems like you're seeing just all kinds.

of people just come out of the blue who. are looking for answers I think a lot of. that is coming from from what we're. seeing in just society today I think our. culture is being. overrun and uh there's a lot of drastic. changes taking place in the world that. that I think a lot of traditionalists. don't necessarily like or agree on and. um and it's it's causing people to look. for answers which is bringing people.

into the church including myself um my. question is when I got to church and I. started going there seems to be this. continuous message of how the church is. shrinking what do you think it is that. is turning people away from. church. people anything in. particular what well I mean I think.

it's you know I hate to generalize cuz I. don't know who am I. um but look after you know after leading. a church for 26 years that you know like. we talked about at breakfast started off. just so cool to me because it was just. people who didn't do Church didn't go to. church they were coming from the bars. you know we held Church in bars um you. know former uh former Purple Heart who.

led one of our campuses in a bar you. know for people and it just creating a a. space for people to explore faith in. God um I think that's the core of what. it's supposed to be about I think that's. what Jesus was about he went to people. he you know he he he healed people he. cared about people he didn't sit back. and wait in a. synagogue um and so I think that.

uh sometimes. though the church gets um well it's a. place where people are and the and the. truth is people are all in process all. of us you know no I I haven't arrived I. don't know anyone who's. arrived uh and and so as a result and we. all have wounds and and then sometimes. we act out of those wounds and and we do. things that are not what God would want.

we hurt each other um we're. hypocritical I know very few people who. go and and here but here's here's the. problem is that I'm. hypocritical I'm guessing everybody. would if if you're willing to be honest. like how many times have we said to. ourselves I'll never but you did good. point that's a. hypocrite and you know so so we all. struggle with that to a degree.

I think I think the challenge of of. church and when when I say church I. don't mean even like the church I led. you know like we were talking about I. think church at the core is meant to be. people learning to love God love each. other and and and care for the world. around them care for people and um the. difficulty in living that out is we need. each other to do that you can't do that. alone.

but when you get close to people people. hurt you and you hurt them so that means. you got to work through it in a new way. and I think that's the challenge of it. and some do it better than others. but you know it's it's hard not to. divide it is it is I I mean I'm going to. be honest that's what that's what kept. me out for a long time was hypocrisy and. being judged I just felt like it was a. place where you walk in and you're.

immediately judged and which is so. ironic when Jesus said judge not lest. you be judged yeah you know so but. people don't always you know people who. claim to follow Jesus aren't in fact. many times following. him you know yeah I mean I like I always. like to remind people you know it was. the religious leaders of Jesus day who. were playing a.

game uh that was really about power and. Prestige you know their own position and. in the name of God protecting God they. crucified. Jesus so it. happens but I think one of the most. important and difficult things to do is. to not get God confused with. people great advice my next question is. is came from breakfast you had mention.

and you just spoken about it you had. talked about how you were trying to take. the culture back and your church and. people started going out to bars. basically places. where how do I say this maybe maybe. God's presence doesn't thrive in these. environments is would that be a good way. to say it and I guess what I'm trying to. not necessarily see. because yeah go ahead I guess what I'm.

trying to say is is very non-traditional. places to recruit um or maybe recruit is. recruit just have conversation how would. you bring that up I mean I'm just. picturing myself at a bar or a nightclub. and somebody approaching me about. that 10 years. ago would not have time for it would not. be interested in it at all I mean how. how do you go to that kind of a.

environment and bring up the Bible. religion God Jesus however you want to. call it without without being. intrusive well we weren't doing that I. mean we weren't like walking into a bar. and sitting down and saying Hey I want. to talk to you about God okay were are. you doing it we were holding we were. holding Church in that bar are so we let.

people know they could come and explore. and um but but we weren't like pushing. it on people okay that makes sense yeah. so it would basically be a conversation. that people can overhear and maybe they. want to join in on the conversation yeah. com coming at another time but it's but. it's but it's a neutral space you know. gotcha gotcha I like that that's good I. always wonder you know I think that's I. think that's another thing that turns.

people off uh to include myself is when. it's too intrusive and it's it's almost. the the the way of thinking is almost. forced on. you well I mean that's not from what. from what I've seen studying the life of. Jesus that's not what he did he. respected people he. listened you know it's fascinating. people don't realize this but.

um he he asked way more questions than. he just told people what to. do uh it's not that he didn't teach I. mean he did without a doubt but um you. know he he he' asked things like what. can I do for you what do you want do you. want to be healed you know it's a. strange thing what do you mean do I want. to be healed I'm. blind well but but sometimes we get used. to our wounds and we get comfortable.

with them and without a person's. willingness you know God God respects. Free Will. immensely which causes a ton of. problems. honestly you know I've seen a lot during. my time as a navy seale and a CIA. contractor and I've learned even more. hosting this show the one thing I can. tell you for sure is that it pays to be. prepared right now with our national. debt ing to unfathomable levels Global.

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classic you believe we have free will I. Do I Do complete free. will oh boy wow we're going to the deep. end okay what as well right yeah that's. what we're here to do well Free. Will. um so I believe God has a free will as. well which means that he can work with. our free will. wills and we can do things against his.

will and yet he can still work things. according to his. will so some would say then then our. will is somewhat. constrained I mean I think we got to get. into a little my research first because. when you look at it completely from our. finite. three-dimensional one-dimension of time. world you it doesn't make sense but when. you start to look at it from what these.

people have interviewed who've had. near-death experiences what they say. then you start to go oh okay so it's not. in the box I thought it was when I'm. trying to answer these confusing. mysterious questions there there's a. whole other way of looking at it okay. well remind if I don't if you if you. think of it remind me to ask that. question at the end then I think we have. free will to choose whether we believe. or not and I think think that's about it.

but what do I know so I'd love to dig in. okay let's go back to that after we uh. after we wrap this up but hey before we. get started everybody gets a gift on the. show oh thank you so awesome yeah go. ahead and uh dig into that there's a. book in there that might be familiar to. you he gave me my own book but uh should. I read it that's my that's my Shameless. plug to plug your book in the in the. show all right and then.

um and then those are vigilance Elite. gummy bears made in the USA bears in all. 50 states so dude I I ate these every. day in German class in middle. school you're tempting me hey I I. shouldn't little something for the ride. home they're gluten- free too just so. you know but um and then and then lastly. before we dive 100% into the near-death. experience stuff and everything that.

we're going to talk about I have a. patreon account it's a subscription. account there are top supporters uh. they're the reason I get to do this and. and why you're here and uh they just. they've been around since the beginning. so one thing I do is I give them an. opportunity to ask a question the first. question and uh so there's two questions. here first one is from John. Phillips pastors rarely speak about. heaven and the Bible is somewhat vague. in my opinion why is.

this um man well I don't know why. pastors don't speak about heaven but. maybe it is you know I I mean if you if. you read what I've written you see the. Bible's not been silent and what I'm. showing is how these near-death. experiences what they're reporting. commonly how it aligns. amazingly well.

but I don't know that many take the time. to really systematically look across the. scriptures is what is the expectation of. of life after. this and um you know it it didn't come. quickly to me like I said it's been a. 35e journey so you know I don't fault. them for that but oh good but that is. what I'm trying to do okay so I'm I'm. trying to correct what he rightly. noticed.

perfect this next one is from Jake. Gillan it's an interesting one we cover. a lot of the UFO stuff and anyways if it. didn't in fact turn out that there was. nonhuman intelligence visiting us from. other dimensions how would this play. into religion or would. it um.

well I think what near-death experiences. tell us is that there are definitely. other. dimensions. um and there are definitely. intelligences on the other side and. whether you label them as as aliens or. UFOs or whatever I don't know you know I. um I don't know what what that would. play in and you know in terms of how how.

it would affect things for me personally. I. mean God is an incredibly creative. Creator if there's a Creator all right. we've cataloged two million species on. planet Earth but our scientists say they. think they're probably seven million. species that we haven't yet you know. there are another five we haven't. discovered because we're discovering new. ones at that rate every year wow so. we're talking about a mind that is so.

creative right so why would we think if. there are dimensions Beyond ours uh. which which by the way um science has. postulated that right I mean Einstein's. uh equations of general relativity. perfectly work for massive objects you. know like planets and Suns and galaxies. and all that and quantum phys physics. quantum mechanics perfectly describes.

the. subatomic but the two would never work. together so there was always a search. for this unified field Theory but um. back around the time uh in in the late. 30s Einstein time uh two scientists Kusa. and kleene came up with equations that. if you introduce a Fifth. Dimension those two theories work. together otherwise they don't work. together. and and so what they basically proved is.

that there must be a Fifth Dimension uh. at least to show how our our. mathematical formulas of the the large. and the small. work since then I mean string theory has. gone beyond that to propose that there. might be. 11 Dimensions to our universe that we. don't you know we don't see all of them. we see three dimensions of space and one. dimension of time. really I did not know 11 Dimensions well.

they don't they haven't proven that. that's a theory it's called String. Theory I've looked into a little bit. what do you have any idea what the 11. dimensions are how how much have you. looked into this oh man now now now I'm. getting out of my Lane if I go down that. road well I mean they're they're like. they talk about curled up Dimensions I I. try to you know my former engineering. brain that hasn't yeah I try. to think about it like how would you.

describe another. dimension okay so. um so so this is an analogy for you know. just so people listening know like my. research has been into near-death. experiences um. and after interviewing you know well. over a thousand of them studying. them what I've come up with is an. analogy of what they're experiencing.

when we're talking about a cardiac. arrest where there's no heartbeat no. brain waves and yet they come back. either modern medicine resuscitates them. or I don't know Miracle because we're. talking about people who have hospital. records that they were dead 1 hour and. 45 minutes a medical doctor dead 30. minutes pinned under a water fall in a. kayak and yet she comes back and. um and what they come back commonly.

saying is that they were more alive than. they've ever. been what's that how do you be more. alive than this right but that's what. they say um in a place more real in a. place more. beautiful um. experiencing things that are just hard. to. describe and so the way I like it is. imagine if we're living this. three-dimensional experience on a on a. flat black and white painting here in.

this room so we only have up and down. side to side we don't even have a third. dimension we don't have in or out okay. so we don't even we can't even conceive. of that so death is when you're I. believe when your soul leaves your body. so your Soul's peeled off this third. threedimensional. form so imagine at death your. two-dimensional image is peeled off that. two-dimensional black and white painting. and now brought out into this.

three-dimensional World of Color that's. been around you all the time and yet you. couldn't even conceive of it even though. your your flat black and white world was. contained within this larger realm this. larger reality and you can see it for. what it is and now imagine After. experiencing this you get brought back. to two-dimensional life you get pressed. back into the two-dimensional black and. white painting and now you're trying to. describe three dimensions of color in. two-dimensional black and white terms H.

how would you do it and as I have. interviewed these people they say that's. exactly the. struggle because they're experiencing. dimensions of space beyond ours and of. time Beyond. ours so you're basically saying it's. it's basically impossible for the human. mind to. comprehend what. another dimension would be unless you've.

actually experienced it because it would. defy everything we know apart from. analogy but what is fascinating so you. talked about evidence there is evidence. lots of. evidence. um so you know for me I started into all. this as an agnostic and a skeptic um you. know like like we talked about we. both you know had some church background.

but it was very formal ritualistic and I. was just like you know how do you know. this stuff is real like how do you know. there's a God Jesus the son of God I. mean Legend come on you know that you. know and I and I had lots of questions. like I said engineer skeptic that was my. the way my brains always worked and um. and when people didn't seem to care or. want to address my questions or have. answers I was just like I'm done with. this well my dad was dying of cancer and.

someone gave him the very first research. on near-death. experiences and I saw it by his bedside. table and I start thumbing through it. and I I couldn't stop reading it I read. it in one night and at the end of it I. was like oh my gosh like this might be. evidence like actual evidence this whole. after life God Jesus stuff is real. because of how many people were talking. about it. so that that didn't change my mind it.

just opened me up and um and I started. exploring so kind of like you I I I. there was a just a group of people. meeting in a home and they were reading. and talking about the Bible and I got. invited into it and because of that I. was like all right I told them I said. you're not going to want me there. because I've got a lot of questions and. they're like no bring it and and so. that's actually where I came to faith in. Christ and um you know and then later I.

went from a career in engineering into. becoming a a pastor really to help. people like me. Skeptics um because I found that not. many churches made space for people to. doubt and wonder and process and um and. I found that there are real answers. there's a ton of evidence like right now. it would take more faith for me not to. believe. than to believe because of the evidence.

really yeah would you say the majority. of the evidence that. you've that brought you here is from. near-death. experiences no no no um I mean those are. huge and you know it was what began me. on this journey. now you know I also uh for 35 years have. been curious like what are these.

near-death experiences and how does how. does the commonality of what they report. align with what I've also found to be. what I what I think is evidence for. God's existence in history and in other. in other ways and and what made me. actually believe that the Bible is worth. considering cuz I didn't I didn't think. that originally and so so that's what. I'm I've always been curious about and.

you know and finally wrote on how the. two of those come together in in Imagine. Heaven which I wrote in. 2015 let's get into some near-death. experience stuff. um so your dad was dying of cancer he. had a book you read it you got. fascinated how do you I mean how do you. go. from agnostic engineer. into interviewing thousands of people. who had had near-death.

experiences I mean Sean I didn't set out. to do. that and that's you know that's a thing. that. uh you look at those those coincidences. of how things work I mean so it turned. out I was working out in Santa Barbara. California as an. engineer and. um and I kept running into them or. hearing about them and I and I just my. brain was so curious I think because.

that because that's what opened me up to. Faith uh and and so I started collecting. them or what what what turned out to be. is that in the early days we're talk. this is the. 80s when all of this just became kind of. known in the medical community as more. and more modern medicine's resuscitating. people and more and more of these. stories are coming forth it turns out. that uh a big population of of research.

was being done in Santa Barbara. California where I. worked and so you know looking back I'm. kind of like wow that's curious you know. but I kept running into them kept. hearing them and um fact I I came across. some things I I wrote down in in. 1988 uh preparing for a talk I did at. the University of California Santa. Barbara and I was looking at the.

different um organizations of of what. people report and you know the different. types of. evidence and uh so so yeah. so it's just been this long steady um. collecting the data sifting through it I. I'd wondered later in life like even in. the 2000s am I supposed to write on this. but that's not how it started for me it. was more of just.

this I don't know almost. Obsession curiosity what was what was. maybe one of the first ones that really. just grabbed. you in in and got your. attention was there one in particular. that that that that really made you want. to dive in deeper. or yeah I mean so. so one of the things that you know.

initially I was like well maybe this is. just hallucinating or you know maybe. it's just something that happens in the. brain or you know there have been a lot. of alternate explanations and and and in. the new book and imagine the god of. Heaven I go into the 10 points of. evidence that that really did convince. me one of them is is vertical. observation so when a. person dies when their heart stops. beating no brain waves um say they have.

a heart attack and they have a. near-death experience they say they. leave their. body usually they're initially up above. their body in the room where their. resuscitation is. happening and they commonly say I was. still. myself um most say I had a body but it. was like it was like a spiritual body. and um not with five senses more like 50. senses and Blended senses. which that's hard to describe what does. that mean Blended senses well say things.

like I you know I couldn't I couldn't. it's not that I just saw it I heard it I. um I didn't just smell it but but I. could see the smell too or so like an. intuition. maybe no not intuition Blended senses. like so the sensus we think of of sight. smell touch taste all that but but. a an aroma would would also have a sound.

to it okay and a. visual I don't know I'm I'm just telling. you what they say I've never experienced. anything like that. um but they're initially up above their. body and they're watching what's. happening in the room of their. resuscitation now now this was key. because when they are resuscitated when. they come back they can report. observations that can be checked out is. either yes or no right either that.

really happened or that didn't so one of. the one of the key ones that early on. really convinced me or it didn't. convince me but it it really got my. attention um but they're many like this. is Pam Reynolds she was a well. well-known singer um I think from. Nashville. actually um and she had a deep brain. aneurysm and she was going to die unless. they did this radical exploratory.

surgery which is more common now but. what they have to do is they have to. lower the body temperature down to 50°. Fahrenheit they they drain the brain. completely of all blood they have to. make sure the brain is completely shut. down because they're going to have to go. down deep into the to the brain to to. fix the. aneurysm and so as a result they they um. they're monitoring with an EEG uh they.

tape the eyes shut so there are no. external stimulation to the eyes they. put 100 debel clickers in the ears so. that then they can make sure there's. nothing registering in the brain just. flat. EEG okay so this is all counts of. clinical death are are certain for the. surgery to happen and and not many. survive the surgery so it only happens. when there's no other option usually so. so Pam is going into the. surgery and she's put into the deepest.

state of anesthesia for for two. hours and. um Dr spetzler was her neurosurgeon who. reported on this um another uh. cardiologist that I interviewed Dr sabum. um also studied the case there was a. resident uh Dr Green who has also. testified because he was there when all. this happened. so you you've got medical doctors who.

are confirming what Pam ended up saying. wow yeah now and what people don't. realize is. like these accounts have been written up. in the Journal of the American Medical. Association um in in the Lancet Europe's. most prestigious medical journal in. Psychiatry um in about 900 uh. peer-reviewed scholarly journals that. have reported on Neath experiences. because there's something. there right I mean all these medical.

doctors wouldn't they'd be like yeah and. and that's what many of them are at. first like I never heard of that but. they didn't ask and when they start. asking people start reporting so Pam. says. she she was out of her body and she's. watching what's happening and some of. the things she later reports is that um. there was there was a female doctor down. by her. legs um.

saying saying we we can't find it I. can't find it and the male doctor Dr. sper said try the other leg and she. registered that as strange because it. was brain surgery like what are they. doing down by my legs well they were. they were you know trying to find an. artery down there and um and then she it. was about over an hour into surgery that. they actually took out the salt. and you.

know most people have never seen a brain. saw and you know you think it's a saw. it's just going to cut and she she. reported that when when they took it out. it's called It's called The Midas Rex. and she said it actually looked like an. electric. toothbrush and they had like a it almost. looked like my Dad's socket set she said. with all these blades in it that they. opened up um they didn't open that up. until an hour into the deepest state of.

anesthesia uh and an hour into surgery. when she couldn't have seen anything her. eyes are tape shut there was no brain. wave so where is this memory being. registered right wow CU she's got 100. dcel clickers in her ears and they're. monitoring that there's no activity in. the EEG in her in her. brain yet she perfectly reports about. that then she claims she travels and. this is another commonality of. near-death. experiences through through a tunnel um.

to a place of exquisite beauty um she. felt the presence I think it was of her. grandfather and um and and knew that God. was there this God of Light and love who. who told her she must go. back um she comes back and as she's. coming back um they they. they're sewing her up and they're. playing Hotel.

California and she hears that and then. they shocked her to get her heart. started again not once but twice and she. reports. that so when she is revived all these. things that she reports checked. out now you could say oh that's just you. know that's a a good story right who's. she reporting this to to the doctor s to. is this right after surgery yeah what.

are they saying. well um I was just in in a movie called. after death uh which was just in the. theaters this fall and um you can see Dr. Green who is a resident there and he. says she reported things she should not. have. seen um Dr spetzler Who was the. neurosurgeon he's done interviews he. said the same thing Dr sabum who was. also in the movie you know he he. researched it and said yeah I mean she.

should not have been able to report that. now it's not that's not a one-off that's. the thing so another cardiologist that. um I spoke with Dr Pim van laml in the. Netherlands in Holland he was the one. who actually wrote the case up in the. Lancet Europe's medical journal of a man. who was found dead in a park brought in. or didn't have a heartbeat they brought. him into the ER they were going to shock.

him but they had to intubate him because. he wasn't breathing and the nurse found. Dentures so took took the Dentures out. put them in the lower drawer of the. crash cart they intubated him they. shocked him they got his heart started. again but he never came to in the. ER they wheel him out put him in another. room a week later he comes too and he's. he's asking where are his Dentures you. know you lost my dentures and then he. sees the nurse in the hallway and says.

wait that nurse get that nurse that. nurse knows where my dentures are and. then he explains that he was in the ER. up. above trying to get everybody's. attention and he described the doctors. how many were there who was there the. nurses what they were wearing and how. that nurse had taken his Dentures out. and put it in the lower drawer the cart. with all the bottles on it and that's. where they found his dentures. W so he writes this up in the.

lanet now Dr Janice Jan. Holden actually did a study on. verifiable observations of near-death. experiencers so she took close to a 100. patients who had had cardiac arrest and. claimed to have a near-death. experience and then you know each one. might make 10 or 15 observations of of. what was going on right. and she went to hospital records went.

and interviewed the people there to. verify those observations she found that. 92% of their observations were. completely. accurate think about that 92% were. completely accurate another 6% were. mostly accurate only 2% which turned out. to be one patient were. inaccurate wow compared to control. groups of people who had had a cardiac. arrest and they ask them what do you.

think happened during your resuscitation. and it was it was guesswork it was like. what they'd seen on. ER like you know 20% accurate. maybe man that's one of the 10 points of. evidence that I write about in Imagine. the god of Heaven that that convinced me. but not just me many of these skeptical. medical doctors. um most of the ones I know are believers.

now because of what they've seen and. heard studying these what what do the. doc I mean when you're interviewing. these doctors let's say before. they are believers what do they what do. they have any is there any other. explanations well yeah so um Dr. sabum he he was a Christian and he. actually set out so he read the first. research I did and said bogus I'm a.

cardiologist I've never heard a patient. say anything about you know watching. resuscitation or traveling this place of. beauty or you know this God of light or. any of that and so he set out to. disprove it but when he starts asking. his patients he starts to hear the same. things now there's an important reason. for that I mean back to our analogy. If you experience something more real.

than. this you know more amazing more. beautiful more more. more and it's kind of sacred to you and. when you try to explain it people kind. of look at you like yeah this the. drugs and they just kind of dis or or. you're crazy and so it shuts people down. um so. until more recently people haven't been. willing not very willing to come forth. I'm amazed at the number of people when.

I speak on this will come up to me and. say that happened to me they'll tell me. and I'll ask you know like if I'm. speaking at a church have you ever told. your pastor no never. have um or you know just have you ever. told anyone well I've I've told my wife. but that's. it. so uh Dr sabum set out to disprove them. starts interviewing his patients and.

hears more and and more evidence like. this and um you know like this one guy. Pete he. said when he was doing resuscitation on. he had a heart attack and he was up. above his body he said tell me what what. you saw and Dr sabum said you know if I. had recorded what he said I could have. used that to teach Physicians how to to. do. resuscitation he said he should not have. been able to know.

that and so he spent 5 years going. through Medical Hospital records um. trying to disprove scientifically. near-death experiences and instead he's. the one who wrote the article in the. Journal of the American Medical. Association having changed his mind and. saying this is grounded in in. reality. um Dr Jeffrey long was a non ologist who. read that jam article and he too uh he.

said that can't be true that's not right. because most of these guys are coming. from what's called a materialistic point. of view right worldview which says that. our brain is like the computer that runs. the body there's no soul it's just a. it's just what happens in your brain. it's just electrodes and you know uh. what happens across electrical synapses. in your brain. but this has changed a lot of people's.

minds um and and so Dr Long also starts. asking patients starts hearing more and. more and then he sets up a whole. Research Foundation and he's now studied. thousands um he's another like me who. studied thousands of them and he said he. said that near-death experiences are he. came to this astounding conclusion that. they are. scientific proof of a life to come that.

was his. conclusion what do you think I'm going. to keep going with some of the some of. the people that you've interviewed on. this but I mean when. you when you interview these people and. you see these commonalities and then you. see Physicians and surgeons and and and. people at the top of their field who are. who are completely reversing their. initial um thoughts about near death.

experiences I mean what do. you it has to spark a question on what. is consciousness mhm what. what with everybody you've talked to and. with with what you know now I mean what. do you think Consciousness is where does. it come. from well personally uh and not just. from near-death experience evidence but.

also. um because like I said I don't think you. know 48% of people having near-death. experiences and I've interviewed for the. new book I've interviewed 70 people. personally on every continent and every. religious. background 48% of people having a. near-death experience encounter the same. God of Light and love who is personal. who knows them. intimately um whose presence they never.

ever want to. leave so I don't think that God had just. showed up just decided to show up in our. age of modern medical. resuscitation and that's what I'm trying. to show that that the same God has been. revealing things about himself. throughout history because what he. really wants is. relationship so um for me my answer to. that question is I think it's the soul I. think that's what the Bible talks about.

the soul uh of a human is our is our. seat of. Consciousness now do you think we have a. collective Consciousness as well yeah I. thought you were going there and um so. here's the thing another commonality of. what near-death experiencers say is that. when they leave their. body they realize that they were. inhibited here so there's.

more. um. fascinating side note is I think the. Apostle Paul probably had a near-death. experience what did why do you think. that well because in Acts chapter 14 and. you know for those who don't know the. Apostle Paul um he he wrote a good chunk. of the New Testament right and um and. and by the way he was not a believer in. Jesus he was a Pharisee he was one of. the ones who had Jesus crucified he.

wasn't well he was of the of that that. leadership and he was actually on his. way to have Christians jailed and even. killed he stood there thumbs up while. step was was killed for his faith in. Jesus because he did not believe when he. is on the Damascus Road and This. brilliant God of life appears to him. just like is appearing to near-death.

experiencers all around the globe. today same one and he asked who are you. Lord and he says I'm I'm Jesus the one. you're. persecuting and I I like to point out. you know Jesus didn't tell him what to. do he didn't explain anything else he. later sends ananas a person to explain. all that all that Jesus had did and Paul. still had a free will. so Paul could have either decided to.

follow Jesus but it was going to cost. him a lot because he was a wealthy. powerful Pharisee so he was about to. lose his whole life and he still had a. choice and I point that out because I. think that's true with what near-death. experiences. are that you know just because they. encounter God doesn't they still come. back and they have a free will they can. either pursue they can seek God or they. can just keep going their own way or you. know they still have a free will I find.

many do do seek and and when they do. they they find but you know and that's. that's kind of what I'm pointing out as. well but I think it's the soul that. leaves the body but expands in powers. and Paul Paul talks about this so that's. where I was going in Acts chapter 14 it. says that um a a mob turned on Paul and. and and he got stoned to death in in. lisra stoned to death with.

rocks gotta gotta always make that clear. for people who don't know the Bible. that's how they killed people back. then OD so they stoned him to it says. they stoned him to death dragged him out. of the city and left him for. dead and then his friends gathered. around him and are praying for him and. it says he gets back up and goes back. back into the. City so he's a badass right he's going.

back to the ones who just killed. him uh but Paul says in 2 Corinthians 12. and I think he might be referring back. he says 14 years ago whether I was in my. body or out of my body I don't know only. God knows I was taken up to paradise and. I saw and heard things. inexpressible okay so I wonder if that's. when that happened right interesting and.

then Paul talks in 1 Corinthians 15. about how when our bodies are buried. they're they're buried in Weak they're. they're buried um a natural body but. they're raised a spiritual body he says. they're buried in weakness but they're. raised in the Greek word is dunamas. which means power they're raised in new. power and that's exactly what near-death. experiencers talk about that they have. this expanded experience they have.

eyesight that's telescopic like they can. see thousands of miles zoomed as if. right up close every. detail uh. communication they say is is pure some. use the word telepathy but it's more. than that it's it's it's thought to. thought but it's also feeling to feeling. it's perfect. understanding um that is the. communication on the other side travel. we're not limited like in this in this. body um so it can be instantaneous in a.

thought it can be kind of a like on a. people mover almost like a floating or a. flying I've interviewed two different. commercial airline pilots who clinically. died and I find it so fascinating that. both of them God gave them a fly in over. the holy city of God that John describes. in the Bible in in Revelation 21. and both these guys one of them who was. an agnostic when he died and cried out.

last. minute um the other who was he was a. Believer but you know kind of just doing. his own thing both of them get a fly in. over the city and both of them said I. think I think God thought that'd be cool. for me since I was a commercial airline. pilot I've I've done holding routes over. every major city in the. world wow very interesting. by the way I interviewed a Hindu who'.

never read the Bible before who. described that exact same city no. kidding to the tea when. you it sounds like when you started if I. remember correctly when you started. looking intoed near-death experiences it. took about 8 months for you to become a. Believer was that is that correct am I. often saying that believer in near-death. experience or believer in. uh faith in Jesus no was probably a year.

two years year to two years later okay. what what was it that made you flip was. it the was it a collective of all of the. research you'd done or was there a. specific point where where you know. that's a great question because here's. here's the. thing I I had all this evidence and um. and it wasn't just near-death. experiences you know in in the Old.

Testament one thing people don't realize. they think the Bible is a book it's not. a book it's a. library It Was Written it's actually 66. books written over 1500. years I mean go think about going and. trying to pull out 66 books from the. library and get any congruency about any. one. topic and yet that's what this is It's. it's written by 40 different authors. over. 66 um 66 books, 1500 years and yet there.

are these common themes of the the. person of God God's you know it it goes. all the way back and that this is the. God of all Nations you know most most. gods are tribal Gods they're like the. God of this people group or of that. people group but you know in Genesis 12. I mean all the way back the the the. whole story of the Bible is that God.

created people because God is love and. he created us for love for a. relationship which seems bizarre right. but I don't know you know you have a kid. when when there is. love there's room for more. love right yeah you know I have. granddaughters it's like it's it's even. greater it's amazing. um and God's like that and and so he.

creates us for love but go back to our. Free Will. issue love is a tricky thing because. think about it you can't buy love you. know you fall in love with someone you. can buy them lots of gifts and they. might stick around with you but how do. you know they're not sticking around for. the gifts how do you know they really. love you so you can't buy love can't. force love I mean you could you could. say I love you hold a gun to her head. and make her live with you and you know.

tell you she loves you but we all know. well that's not love because love can't. be forced it must be free or it's not. love and that's true even with. God that God in creating creatures that. could love God and love each other. created basically chose to limit his own. power to not Force free will but to. somehow work within.

it so all the way back you know the the. story of humanity is that we've all gone. our own way we've all at some point. flipped off God and said no my will be. done I don't care about yours I want I. want my will. done and and I mean you know that's me. that's that's all of us that's that's my. everyday struggle you know I I don't. wake up every day going what what do you. want today God I mean I try more and. more but it's usually like what do I.

want to do how am I going to get it done. how do you. know and um and that's the world we live. in and and. so all the way back though in Genesis 12. God claims that he raises up two people. Abraham and Sarah and he says to them. this Genesis 121 I'm going to form you. into a nation and I'm going to bless you. so so that all nations on Earth may be. blessed so from the very beginning even.

in all of our Rebellion God had a plan. to to bless all people to bring us all. back everybody who wants to go to come. back. and you see throughout the Old Testament. and this is actually what convinced me. um all the way back you know that was. 2000. BC that that he said that so that's. that's before any sacred writing of any. world religion is put down so this is.

just oral tradition at this point then. about. 14500 um BC is when the sacred writings. of the world many of the world's. religions start to be canonized start to. be written and at that point this same. God of Light appears to Moses on Mount. Si right. and uh calls himself the I. am now fascinatingly I interviewed a.

woman in Tyron who has a heart attack. and sees this this God who says to her I. am he who. is and then boom she's back in her body. and that's how it was translated into. English and she was speaking farsy wow. when I heard. this um another woman Penny same thing. this the same God of Light and he and he. says I.

am wow and so you're pointing all the. way back now to Moses God said here's. how you'll know I am truly God I alone. know what's going to happen in history I. alone can tell you in advance what's. going to. happen and then it's gonna and then it. happens and that's how you'll know so. all the way back 1500 BC says. this well then. you have things happen. in um in the prophets so one of the most.

convincing to me and this by the way is. near-death experiences opened my mind. then I started giving the Bible a chance. and started reading and asking questions. and then I came across this and I was. like why didn't anybody know this why. why didn't anybody tell me this like. this is. evidence so. Isaiah is a Jewish Prophet writing in. 780 BC. okay and he's claiming that God God is.

revealing things to people through him. and I believe that part of what God was. saying that he wants to bless the whole. world through the Jewish people you know. you hear they're the chosen people well. they're not they're not chosen like. they're better than chosen is a. responsibility so they had a. responsibility and the responsibility. was to to preserve what God was. revealing for all nations and part of. what he was revealing was when he would.

enter our world in a form we could. relate. to to pay his own price of. Justice okay so that's a foreshadowing. so in. Isaiah um in Isaiah chapter nine oh let. let me let me back up because sometimes. what I'm about to say people will say. well I'm sure they you know Jesus lived. they probably took the book of Isaiah. doctored it up after the fact right that. that would be what would be going. through skeptic's Minds what would be.

going through my mind in 1948 in the. Dead Sea Scrolls you familiar with the. Dead Sea Scrolls we found yeah so in the. caves of kumran which I've been there uh. fascinating story these two Shepherd. boys were chasing their goats up in. there threw a rock in hear something. crash they discover this Pottery. sealed with 2,000 year old Scrolls. one of them was called the Great Isaiah. scroll it was a complete copy of the.

scroll the book of Isaiah carbon dating. from 150 to 250 years before. Jesus 150 to 250. BC now you can go read it online I mean. it's in Hebrew but you can read the. translation online so we have a copy of. Isaiah proof positive predating. Jesus and yet what Isaiah 4 tells about. the coming of Jesus the Messiah is. phenomenal so Isaiah chapter.

9 UM says. uh the the the the region of. Galilee that was in darkness will see a. a great light a light will Dawn okay so. particular place the whole earth. Galilee and then six verses down and it. says for to us a child is born a son is. given the government will be on his. shoulders and his name will be called. wonderful counselor Everlasting father.

Mighty God Prince of. Peace and his Rule and reign will never. end okay so so this is Judaism in seven. you know 700. BC and their Creed is there's only one. God and and and don't ever call anything. or any anyone else God. and so to say that there is going to be. a child born a human called Mighty God.

and and this began this mystery in the. Jewish tradition of this Messiah that. would. come. um now 700 years later Jesus did most of. his ministry in. galile and he did claim to be the Son of. God that's what got him crucified. uh because they were expecting a a. conqueror to overthrow their Roman.

oppressors not what Isaiah said the the. Messiah would first do so you skip. forward to Isaiah chapter. 53 and it says that the Messiah is going. to reveal the arm of God so imagine our. our two-dimensional painting again so. this isn't all there is to God this is. God arm reaching in as a slice into our. two-dimensional world so we're only.

seeing a slice of the greater reality of. God in the in the form of Jesus he's the. representation in our three-dimensional. form of of of God so he's going to so. Isaiah 53 and again the 780 years before. Jesus he writes. this and it says he will be pierced for. our transgressions okay he was nailed to. a. cross um he he he will.

suffer uh and by his wounds we will be. healed because all of us like sheep have. wandered off we've gone our own way but. God laid on him the sins or iniquities. of us. all so this Messiah this arm of God. reaching in is first going to suffer to. pay for all of Humanity's. wrongs um it it later goes on and says. but after he has suffered he will see. the light of life and.

live that's. Resurrection but this is in Isaiah 53. 780 years before Jesus ever came and. again he's going to come to Galilee. specific. place and that's just two of about. 60 of what God put throughout these 1500. years of of. writing for telling what he was going to. do in human.

history. wow and that's what that's what for me. as a skeptical engineer indes opened me. up then I started learning that and I. was like okay this is this is real. historical evidence so ndes is what got. your attention right okay but then I. started reading the Bible and then I. started learning about this other. historical evidence and then I started. to see that okay what indes are commonly. saying is also what the Bible seems to.

be saying about the expectation of life. to come about who God is about what. God's. like why do you continue I mean. thousands how how how many do you know. exactly exactly how many people that. have had ndes you've interviewed it's. over a thousand it's it's closer to 1500. now 15 so you continue to do this oh. yeah just I'm just curious out of.

1,500 accounts why do you keep going. what are you still looking for. something um well you know like like we. talked about I I feel like I'm supposed. to keep writing about this from. different angles so what I'm what I was. trying to write about in Imagine the god. of Heaven is to show people. more um that we all put God in a box we.

can't help it we're finite right and. what these near-death experiencers are. saying but what the scriptures also say. is you know God is far more. mysterious and beautiful and powerful. and Sovereign and this genius mind than. we've ever imagined but but he's also. far more relatable. personable funny. enjoyable I mean most people whoa whoa I.

don't go there no and that's a problem. we we got a very small box and I'm. trying to show people that know who God. has revealed himself to be and what. these people are. saying the reason they consistantly say. I never wanted to leave his. presence is because he is love we've. always. wanted when you know there's a we had. spoken a little bit about this uh on the.

way here from breakfast and I brought up. psychedelics and we were kind of talking. about some of the commonalities between. a near-death experience and psychedelic. therapy which which um I've not had a. near-death experience I've done. psychedelic therapy and uh it did. amazing things for me but kind where I'm. going with this is the presence. of relatives felt that or people that.

you love felt that a lot of people that. uh I've talked to or have gone through. that type of therapy with have felt that. the the presence of ancestors or loved. ones the tunnel that you speak of in the. in the Psychedelic world we call that a. wormhole well in Imagine Heaven I. postulate could this be a wormhole from. our our kind of time space Dimension to. God's expanded dimensionalities the.

light um the light that you feel the. presence the the the Oneness or Unity I. mean these are all when I hear some of. your talks or read about some of the. near-death experiences that that that. you've studied it it there are a lot of. commonalities. and kind of where I'm going with this is. is I mean what are your and and to get. there A lot of times it's an ego death.

where people actually I mean when I did. it I not a doubt of my mind I was. dying um um it's a it's. a you experience dying and when when you. did DMT yes when I did 5 Meo DMT it was. a death experience then when you come. out on but did you literally. die no you don't but you you in your. mind you feel like you're. dying yes you don't feel like you're.

dying you are 100% certain you are dying. really and and was that scary it's it's. I've been in a lot of scary situations. uh as a Warf fighter and that takes the. cake it is it was the most anxiety and. the most fear I've ever felt and then. when you come out the other side it is. pure. Bliss and so I I want to ask you know.

what as a. pastor what do you what are your. thoughts on psychedelics I hear all. kinds of things from the Christian. Community most of which are derogatory. towards the the treatment but you know. I've I've seen amazing things uh happen. because of that type of. therapy truly amazing like cures. addiction cures anxieties cures uh uh.

gives people another perspective on. on very traumatizing incidents that. they've been through. sexual. uh traumatic incidences rapes wartime. stuff I mean I I had a friend that was. shot in the head and could not walk. without a cane for years and I. had had continually talked to him about. this he finally went down and did it 24.

hours left his Cane there didn't need. sunglasses anymore uh on cloudy days. because of the light sensitivity all. just changed his entire life well I'm. just curious what your thoughts are on. psychedelics and if you've heard of any. of the. commonalities Today's Show is sponsored. by helix sleep. sleep especially as you get older is so. critical especially that deep comforting.

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psychedelic drugs some have said. ketamine other um and I've interviewed. people who have had near-death. experiences who have also had. psychedelic drug experiences who have. told me it's not the. same and in particular. um the vividness the the reality of it. is of a of an order of magnitude. different now having said that you know.

like like we talked. about I think it's possible that you. know psychedelic drugs are called. gateway drugs sometimes. right um there was an interesting. uh experiment done wasn't really an. experiment it was a doctor Dr Walter. Penfield uh in the S I believe is the. 50s worked on EP epileptic. patients and would basically open their.

brain and while they. were um Lucid would stimulate parts of. the brain with electrodes trying to cure. epilepsy and he kind of mapped the brain. in doing that but what he found is he. would he would stimulate across an area. and their left arm would go up and. they would say I'm not doing that you're. doing that which completely changed um.

Dr Dr penfield's view because he went. from believing that the brain was who we. are to realizing there's a there's a. someone in there that can observe. something completely separate from. what's happening in the. brain but Penfield also found a a spot. with an where he put electrodes across. the brain and and the person said I'm. leaving my. body and then would when he stopped.

would come back now I don't know for. sure but I I wonder if there's like a. trigger in our brain where our soul can. release from our body and so at a point. of of of near-death trauma or that is. the passing of of death at least of the. Soul leaving the body that something. happens that is a a release mechanism. and so do psychedelic drugs actually. affect that in the sense that that your.

soul maybe. is traveling or going somewhere or. experiencing some things of uh of a. greater dimensionality of reality around. us I think that could be. possible the the the problem the problem. is that um. um you're going into another realm.

unprotected and when I've interviewed. near-death experiencers one of the. common things they've said to me is that. when they're there they're out of their. bodies and and generally either Angels. or what they call a welcoming committee. relatives or friends who have died. before them are there to greet them they. say you you know love them and guide. them on on their journey home and. protect them and like Dr Mary Neil was.

the the spine surgeon who whose kayak. got pinned under the waterfall dead for. 30 minutes you know and and she said I. knew they were there to protect me I. said protect you from what and she said. I don't know I just intuitively knew. they were there to protect me and enough. said that that it it registered for me. and so what I wonder. is you. know if if we are through psychedelics.

going into and and there other ways you. know to shut down the neocortex as well. and have altered experiences of. Consciousness or. awareness maybe you are going into a. realm of other dimensionalities all. around us but the thing you got to be. aware of is that there's good and. there's evil in this world there's good. and there's evil on the other side too. and so you don't always know what you're. going to encounter and if you're going.

in. unprotected you know as the indes would. would kind of hint at um you can be. deceived. so let me let me let me go though to. the I've interestingly recently had a a. firefighter who came to faith in Christ. in in our church who you know went. through tons of abuse growing up a lot. of trauma then becomes a firefighter you.

know first responder so there's a lot of. a lot of trauma there and um and he was. recently telling me about doing uh. therapy in a controlled setting with. siloc. cybin um and and that it really helped. them um I also uh a woman who. who also came to Faith in our church who. had undergone. severe uh sexual abuse.

trauma um same same kind of same kind of. story and I have a good friend who is a. is a Christian therapist I told you he. he uh he runs affairrecovery.com it's. the largest Affair recovery Network and. he and he serves the military and so he. deals with a ton of. trauma and. um and and he's he's said there are. there are multiple. therapies uh that that can get.

at. reintegrating a a memory that's a. traumatic memory with our neocortex so. that you can put. new thoughts uh new context to that. memory because if you know memory is. stored in a neural network and and if. it's a traumatic memory many times for. survival it shuts off from our neocortex. where most of our thinking daily. thinking is being done so we can just. you couldn't make it in a constant.

traumatized state. right and so that's the brain's way of. protecting us from constant. trauma but then when it gets triggered. by something you're just there and. there's no way to associate it with a. new thought like if you're a kid growing. up just being beaten on by your father. or sexually traumatized and you. you know I'm I'm never safe or whatever. and you get this this thought Associated.

um when that trauma comes up it's just. pure terror you're you're feeling the. same thing again but if that can somehow. be reconnected to your neocortex you can. start to associate new Thoughts with it. I'm an adult now I'm not. helpless not. everyone that looks like that or. does that is going to harm meh and so it. it can begin to reintegrate that memory.

with new With A New. Perspective I had a conversation with a. good friend of mine last week uh who. also uh is a special ops veteran and and. found a lot of healing through. psychedelic therapy and then uh found. God kind of or strengthened his belief. in God through psychedelic therapy and. we got into an interesting discussion.

about you know whether it's it's a sin. to do or not and a lot of people have. told me this is the forbidden fruit this. is this is satanic this is this all. kinds of negative things all the things. that I've seen happen from psychedelic. therapy. are positive I've seen very few when. it's in the right setting when you're. doing it with the right intent yeah like. my my um my therapist friend said you.

know like some are more effective than. others like. psilocybin you know if you have to. maintain a micro do you have to keep to. feel good well then that's not complete. healing um that doesn't mean there there. there can't be some some healing but of. course the goal is to not have to be. dependent but look I you know. I don't speak for the Christian. Community I'm sure this will not so far.

go over well um I'm just telling you. what I've somewhat recently. heard and you know I've thought about it. like well I mean there are a lot of. dangerous drugs that are used in. medicine when controlled that can be. very helpful but when abused can be. harmful MH and and so might these be. some that have not yet been you know. found to be useful in a controlled way.

ketamine uh camine can be abused right. um but I have a friend right now. undergoing trauma therapy using ketamine. in a and it's legal and it's it's okay. in a medical. setting so I don't know I mean maybe you. know it's it's I'm out of my Lane here. by the way yeah I'm just I'm. being you're very respected what you're. doing so that's why I'm asking is. because I don't you know it's a it's a. touchy subject uh but it is I'm.

interested to hear your opinions and and. you know so we got into this discussion. and he was saying that he. thinks and uh I don't want to drag on on. on this too long but he thinks there are. certain sections of the Bible that have. been pulled throughout the years one of. them is talk he thinks that. self-healing uh through. things like mushrooms or ibigan aboga.

iasa he thinks that maybe there have. been sections out of that that have been. pulled because it is a direct connection. he believes to to God and I'm kind of. curious what your I don't think I would. go there because I know people who have. had. hellish. trips and and and many who have had. trips that started good and everything. was good and they kept going because it. was so awesome until it.

wasn't. well there is a caveat to that and some. people I'm not saying that the trips are. all beautiful and glorious and Blissful. by any means all I'm saying is they are. healing uh in fact a lot of people have. had. horrific. experiences but then the long-term. effects kick in and it it's like I was. telling you I haven't drank in over two. years uh Stanford just wrapped up a. study where they brought guys down with.

traumatic brain injuries uh where half. of the brain isn't lit up dark spots all. over the brain they do the ibigan. treatment they fly right back. immediately they do another brain scan. and the entire brain's lit up there's a. lot of yeah there's a lot of science. coming out of it and and you know it it. makes me wonder you've heard this maybe. you've heard this story about the guy he. was in a flood and he's on his roof and. the water's coming and they send a boat.

and he's like no Jesus is going to save. me and then they send a helicopter and. he's like no I'm not getting on that. helicopter Jesus is going to save me and. then they send something else and he. says no Jesus is going to save me and. the water keeps Rising he wounds up dry. drowning he goes to heaven and he's like. why didn't you save me he's like I sent. you a boat I sent you a helicopter and I. sent you the other thing maybe. maybe psychedelics is one of those. things well I mean it could be God you. know God if God created all there is he.

he also created things that can help us. and heal us um you know Paul Paul says. in the Bible everything created is good. everything God created is good now can. we abuse just about everything yeah MH. right we can use good things and in ways. that do us or others harm but. um yeah I'm not saying that you know our.

our modern medicine might not one day. say hey a treatment using something like. this can be helpful in a limited dose. and you know I mean gosh we you know I. had someone in our in our church who had. been on the. streets um a a meth addict for 10 years. he came to Faith in my small group um. with his living girlfriend he met in.

recovery I married them both for 10. years they were awesome completely clean. no alcohol no drugs they they they. served he served in our homeless. Ministry she served our our kids and. then he F he started working on houses. falls off a. ladder goes in without asking and they. start giving him. opioids he gets addicted again to. opioids and and ends up dead oh man you.

know. so not even everything that we do in. modern medicine that's safe is safe or. done in a safe way yeah so um yeah I. think you know I think one of the. problems you asked me um you know kind. of why do. Christians shoot at it. well you know sometimes we shoot at. things we don't know don't understand. because it you know rattles us and um I.

think a better approach is to to listen. that's what I'm trying to do right now. is I I've got these people that I that I. trust that are telling me you know that. this has been very helpful. um but at the same time I think you. know there's a word of warning too that. you you can become become addicted to. other things that you trade one problem. for another M and so you know I I I.

think what my firef frer friend and um. you know and my uh psychotherapist. friend both said is in a guided. situation in a guided healing situation. it can be effective but. unguided not. necessarily but again you got me talking. out of my Lane I mean I'm I'm an expert. on near-death experiences in the Bible. not let's let's get back into some. near-death experiences we you had spoken.

about a woman who was in a kaying. incident I pretty I think I'm familiar. with this incident could you could you. elaborate on what happened there yeah. her name is Dr Mary Neil she's a a spine. surgeon uh she was she was kaying with. her husband and a group of people in. Peru um goes over a 15 foot 15 20 foot. drop which she said is not you know it's. not horrific. for kayakers who know what they're doing.

but she she ended up at an angle where. she plunged in and the force of of it. pushed her down in the nose of her kayak. got lodged between two Boulders under. the. waterfall and so she's pinned to the. front of her boat she can't even release. her spray skirt because the the the. pounding of the. waterfall and. um you know she did everything she could. she's a surgeon so she you know she's. used to panic situations and she tried.

to release herself and pretty soon. realized she's not she shouldn't be. alive. still and um it was interesting because. she said you know right right before. that when she realized she can't free. herself she said um I said God your will. be done whatever it is I she just had. this kind of surrendered posture to God. your will be. done and she said what was interesting.

is I'd always feared a drowning. death Like Oxygen starvation that just. that's that terrified me and she said I. never felt that instead as soon as she. called out to God she felt Jesus. physically holding her she wasn't even a. very strong believer she'd gone through. medical school and kind of wandered away. and um kind of become a more of an. agnostic materialist and so she was the.

first time she told me she was very. hesitant she's like who am I that Jesus. would care about me or beholding. me but she said but I knew without a. doubt. and she you know she's she's very. logical and analytical and she said I I. was fascinated because on the one hand. I'm having this conversation with him. and she's having like this Life review. which is another comment ity of a. near-death. experience she feels better than she's. ever felt this is more real than.

anything she's ever felt but she's also. aware that her knees are bending. backward and. breaking so she realizes her like you. know she's being like her her legs are. and and she can somewhat feel it but. there's no there's no pain in. it. and then she feels us like kind of like. a pop and boom she's she's out of her. body up out of the water and she's. watching her friends Panic swimming. around trying to find her in the.

waterfall and then she sees this what. many of them call a welcoming committee. of these people um but these people she. said and by the way that that welcoming. committee appears you know on the other. side from what I understand we can. appear to each other just like we. normally do like this one Bank president. Marv. bestman said yeah I was in my favorite.

golf outfit and the people I saw were in. kind of their native Garb or whatever. they would like he saw you know people. from all all countries and um but. sometimes uh they talk about. these they say like Robes of white but. it's not Robes of white and it's. interesting because that's found in. Revelation I think 3 and 5 somewhere. like that of um which always thought I.

don't want a robe of white you know that. doesn't sound good but what I figured. out is that they're. actually. translucent and there is the light and. love and life of God which fills. everything coming out of them so that's. what Mary said she experienced these. people that she knew and out of them was. bursting this love that was. light welcoming her and greeting her and. she said it was the most joyous occasion.

we we hugged and we danced and we were. it was like this big party this big. celebration and she said because I knew. these people you know I I I I had known. them for as long as I. existed and then they began going down. this this path this beautiful pathway. she said line with flowers she loves. flowers and um and at the same time. though she can see what's going on on. the. riverbank so she's having kind of almost. this dual.

experience and. um and she ends up at this this place. this large structure and she can see in. and there people in there and it's a. it's a city she say was a city like. bustling with life there was life there. was activity they were all busy doing. something but she said it was almost. like there was this momentary. like stopping to acknowledge and just. welcomeing she said it was amazing who.

am I I'm nobody and yet I felt so. accepted and so just welcomed welcomed. in and at another Point she um she had. an. encounter with Jesus and I asked her so. what did he look like right question and. she said said this isn't going to make. sense but he looked like bottomless. kindness and.

compassion and I said what do you mean. he said well he had physical features. yes but what just struck me is just. bottomless kindness and. compassion um interestingly a. neurosurgeon a a neurologist that I. interviewed said something like that. about standing there in the presence of. God that picture the kindest person. you've ever pictured or known you had to. multiply it by thousands and that's what.

he experienced combined with the power. of standing 5et away from a nuclear. explosion I me try to put all that in. your head you know that's that's what. blows your box open right yeah so yeah. so. Mary interestingly she asked Jesus she. said. man this is so amazing like why don't. you give everybody this experience. everybody would believe and I love this.

um because he quotes. himself what he said to Dr Neil is what. he said to Thomas who's called doubting. Thomas he's the disciple who when Jesus. was resurrected wasn't there when Jesus. first showed up to his followers and. they were telling Thomas and he's like. uhuh I don't believe it I'm not going to. believe it until I stick my finger in. the hole in his. side and Jesus shows up again and he.

says you know Hey Thomas touch me see. I'm not a ghost I'm. physical um he eats fish with them you. know they touch him he so he says stick. your hand in and see I'm. real and then Jesus said to. Thomas blessed are you because you have. seen but even more blessed are those who. have believed and yet not seen and. that's what he said to.

Mary just. like I love that Jesus quoting himself. yeah wow so she comes back and. um you know I mean it completely changed. her she was a materialist doctor you. know is she the one who also was told. that her son would. die yes so so when she came back so she. didn't want to come back so this is. another commonality of near-death.

experiencers what they've told me is. when when you are in God's presence. you're you are with your best. friend the greatest dad you could ever. imagine um and love that doesn't even. compare to the most wonderful spouse or. romantic lover which sounds bizarre. are but God's not a male or. female we're you know we're created in. His image not him and ours I use him the.

Bible uses him but you know it says male. and female created in His image. so yeah I mean they don't want to come. back so she didn't want to come back and. she was fighting this is another thing I. love Sean is that people in God's. presence are themselves. you know their their same sense of humor. their same you know whatever things. about them they had and many times they.

argue with him and he's he gets it he. understands us and and you know um so he. uh she was very stubborn about it like I. am not going back she had two little. kids at the time and she loved her kids. but that's how great it is and that's. common and so he said to her. look your. son is is going is not going to make it.

past age 18 or he's going to die at age. 18 or something like that and your. family's going to need you to get. through. that and then she came. back and at first she tried to disprove. her own near-death. experience she's. like that felt so real but I want it to. not be real because of what she was told. was going to. happen and. um but searching all the records of what.

happened to her and everything and and. then hearing about others too and she. realized no it's real and she didn't. talk about it because one and she didn't. write about it at first because um how. do you say to your kids yeah I didn't. want to come back for you yeah that's. what she told me. you know I didn't want I couldn't. explain that to. them um and then she had a time when she.

was probably her son was probably 16 or. 17 and there was something they were. talking about you know when when he's. married and 30 or 40 and has kids of his. own and all that and he looked at her. and he said something like Mom you know. I'm not going to live that long and she. was like I mean it really struck. her but um can you say that. again her son her son kind of. knew. somehow that he wasn't going to live.

that. long and so then uh sure enough it was. it was right after he was 18 and um and. he was hit by a car and. killed and I'll tell you you know an. interesting thing Sean is Mary you know. Mary is a friend of mine and and uh she. told me and my wife. Kathy you know I know how wonderful it's.

going to be in the life to come and I. know how good God is and I saw how his. his plan works together it all works. together and it makes sense in the end. but it doesn't take away a mother's. grief it doesn't take away your grief. for your friend you lost yeah you still. have to go through that and. um and it was hard for her. I'll bet I bet it. was that's uh are there any other.

maybe prophecies that you've seen come. out of a near-death. experience like for knowledge of things. yeah or maybe even in the. past um yes I find that those who've had. near-death. experiences it's almost like. whatever whatever the veil is that. separates us you know kind of in our. two-dimensional painting from being able.

to see into the realm around us is thin. for them when they come back initially. after a while it seems to then kind of. the fog settles in again. um and so sometimes yeah they have. premonitions of things that are going to. happen before they before they happen. um any other specific. examples I'll bring something.

up I don't know how true this all is it. was it was on like I had mentioned I I. had. watched case for heaven that you're in. and then that sent me down a near-death. experience. rabbit and um I found a it was a. Hollywood movie and it was talking about. a kid that got really sick. had a near-death experience on the. operating table I believe and saw. Jesus was able to tell his parents that.

he had a I can't remember a sibling that. um didn't make it past pregnancy and he. just had this little kid had all these. examples of. of things that had happened before he. came around or that he was too young to. was this Colton Burpo it may have been. was his father a pastor. yes yeah yeah so he's in my book imagine. Heaven okay. um yeah so what was the what was the.

question well his son had knowledge of. things that he shouldn't have had. knowledge of Oh Yeah from things that. happened before he was born or that he. was or maybe when he was too young to. understand right things like that and so. that's that's why I'm asking are there. knowledge of is there do you see a lot. of Knowledge from people that have had. had nd's knowledge into the future or. knowledge into the past that they could. not have known yeah so you know the 10.

points of evidence that I put in Imagine. the god of Heaven just that's chapter. two kind of to set the framework for why. believe these you know so the verifiable. observations is one um but but another. one is encountering people on the other. side that they didn't know or didn't. know were. dead and Colton Burpo would be an. example of that so he is a four-year-old. kid who um basically they thought they.

lost him on the operating table his dad. is a pastor so his dad goes into the. closet in the hospital and he is. screaming at God he's so mad you know. and uh because he's a p you know I mean. it's it's it's true of all of us were. like wait I I I served you and you're. going to take my son what is going on. you know and he was mad he was angry. Colton meanwhile this four-year-old said. that he was he was there with.

Jesus and and there were angels that. were um basically entertaining him while. he was waiting because because Jesus. said you're going to have to go back. your your your time isn't finished yet. um which is a common thing that he'll. say you st have a purpose or your time. isn't isn't done yet and. um he he he sees his dad in that closet. yelling at. God and he he when he comes back he told.

them that he he saw him in there and. that Jesus told him we need to pray for. your dad right now he's. struggling and so he was his son was. praying for him in this struggle he's. having um with his own faith and. then Colton. also um you know I mean he he he said. lots of things one is he said uh when he.

comes back he said Jesus had. markers and his his dad was like markers. what do you mean you mean like markers. like you right with and and he and he. said yes he he had markers right here. and. here and then he realized oh he's got. wounds it's like if you put a marker Dot. wow so there's a four-year-old's trying. to describe the wounds in Jesus wrists. that near-death experiencers commonly.

say that's a commonality commonality I. have a Rwandan. Imam well I'll have to tell that one. okay but we we'll come back to that one. um but what Colton also said so this. four-year-old comes back and he's. talking to and this is coming out over. time right cuz he's a four-year-old he's. he's he doesn't know what he you know. doesn't even realize that this isn't. isn't normal or yeah I me it all came. out in the car when they're when they're. driving along and they drive by the.

hospital and um and and and Colton says. you know that's where the Angels sang to. me and uh it's funny story he said and. and the father's like what are you what. are you talking about and he starts. asking questions and he said yeah the. the angel sang to me when did the angel. sing to you when I was sitting on Jesus. lap when were you sitting on Jesus lap. you know that when when you were yelling. at God in that.

closet he's like freaking out like how. how did my four-year-old son know I was. in a closet yelling at God so and then. uh along the way Colton. said um I met my. sister and and they said we you don't. have a sister said yes I met my. sister and um and she wanted me to tell. you she's waiting for. you and then they realized they had had.

a miscarriage but they had never told. their four-year-old. son and he told them was a girl and she. was waiting for. them now that's not uncommon either. where you have a sibling there was. another one um in Finland I believe. who um she this this little girl uh dies. meets her sister reie on the other side.

comes back and shares with her parents. that she met regie and they leave the. room they freak out because reie had. died of accidental poisoning when she. was like two. before this little girl was ever born. born. wow how'd she know. that so you know you've got verifiable.

observations you have people seeing and. uh you know meeting people on the other. side they they shouldn't have known or. that they didn't know was dead yet and. when they come back they find out they. died um you have this this one blows me. away you're blind people is it is it. blind we pick up on blind people in the. B woman is it always. lineage that people are welcomed by you. know no but a lot of the time why do you.

think it's always. lineage because Family Matters to God he. put us in families for a reason and it's. not just our immediate family it's. ancestors mhm but it's also friends I. mean the the bank president Marv bestman. said two of his friends that um they. they met together and prayed together. regularly and they were important in. each other's spiritual lives they were. there um so I think it's the people that.

God knows would mean the most to us uh. we meant the most to them Karina. Martinez who died in Co um this is all. new to. her uh and her pacemaker fails she's. young but she had to get a a pacemaker. because they misdiagnosed a heart issue. anyway. she's floating up above her body she. sees her husband there she's like oh my. gosh am I Dad she grew up in Colombia so.

in the Catholic church but horrific past. her parents abandoned her and um you. know she went down the road doing. everything you could to just prove she. was worth something you know just use. your imagination and she's realizing oh. my gosh I'm dead and she said and God is. real she said she just had this instant. realization and she just start she. starts saying the Our father that she. had learned but when she comes to Father.

forgive me she was like I meant it I was. like I realized and she just started. saying forgive me forgive me forgive me. but she was headed to hell and she knew. it and then an arm grabs her and turns. her around and brings her up and she's. going up into this light and she sees. all these people and and she hears this. voice that she she knows is the voice of. God and said come your home.

come and she said no I can't I'm filthy. I'm horrible I deserve hell send me back. there that's what I deserve and this is. common too is that in God's presence. it's like the truth is the truth it's. like we you know we can hide and pretend. and rationalize and justify and all that. but there you don't and so they commonly. say God was not judging me I was judging. myself which is interesting because. Jesus once said by your own words will.

you be acquitted by your own words will. you be. condemned and Jesus said I didn't come. into the world to condemn the world I. came into the world that through me the. world might be saved or. rescued and so she cries out anyway she. she's she's going up into this light she. sees all these people and they're like. celebrating her she's like me why are. why are they celebrating me and she said. I'm filthy I deserve that and he says no. you're worthy come I love.

you and and she still is see and this is. the thing that's amazing CH we're. ourselves we don't just boom change. instantly from ourselves when we cross. over that's why how we live our lives. today matters because we're becoming. something that continues on. and so here here's Jesus trying to. encourage her she's worthy and and what.

she later realized is that she just. asked his forgiveness and that's all it. took that's all it takes it's just. wanting him wanting his forgiveness. wanting his love wanting his guidance. that's all it takes you don't have to be. perfect anything can be forgiven. anything and she was still hesitant she. said God if it really is okay okay if it. really is safe show me someone who's. gone before me that I love and he said. look to your right so she looks to her.

right and there is her dog that died the. week before and her other dog that had. died like three years. earlier and then she. knew and and in she goes and has this an. amazing. experience amazing I go into more of it. but just just the Beauty and the the joy. and the the excitement of it all and she.

was like let me go back I want to tell. everybody and that's what she's been. doing since 2020 I got to kind of calm. her down a little bit cuz she's a little. over the top sometimes she's so. enthusiastic you know why don't you want. to go deeper into what she saw or do you. want to do that later I can we can or we. can later but what I was going to point. out is that the people that welcome us. sometimes are our relatives sometimes. are our friends but in her case it was. her pets interesting interesting let's.

go the blind the blind person yeah so uh. you know the third of the 10 points of. evidence um that convinced me is when. people blind from birth have a. near-death experience they can see and. they report the same things that. near-death experiencers that are cited. report scene on the other side no kiding. no kidding how many cases of this have. you. seen uh I mean I put I think three in.

Imagine heaven and three others I. interviewed in Imagine the god of Heaven. So. like um yeah and and and this is this is. wild so. Vicky um she she died uh in a car. accident she was about 22 I think um and. then and then they were resuscitated her. than the hospital they're operating on. her and and she codes again and she's up. above her body and she's and they they.

say different things fascinating because. they're like they're trying to adjust to. this new. sense and they they start to realize oh. this must be. site but it's but it's a different kind. of site because it's a different order. of magnitude of site as well um and and. so Vicky realizes from her wedding ring. that it had an orange blossom on it you. know that she had felt that that this. and her long hair this must be her like. I must be dead but she felt great and it. was chaos and she was like um I'm out of.

here like she knew Jesus she knew where. she was going she's like I'm out of here. I don't want to I don't want to be right. I know where I'm going and she takes off. and she said through this she called it. a tube or a tunnel um and what was. colorful all of a sudden there were. there was she called no color. black but that's the way she described. it and she comes out in the end of this. tube and is kind of like deposited in.

this garden-like setting grass and. flowers and trees and just Immaculate. Beauty but as they commonly say but with. colors we don't even have here on Earth. and a a a vividness we don't even have. here on Earth but the way Vicki and. other blind people describe it is they. say things like it was different shades. of. brightness so I mean how would you. describe color you know if you don't. really know it but they would describe.

it like that but what's fascinating so. then she has this welcoming committee of. people coming toward her um her. grandmother um Debbie and and Darlene. who um who died she grew up in a home. for the Blind and they died at age nine. and seven of other. complications and she said that I knew I. recognize them but they were in their. Prime and this is a fascinating thing is. people often say sometimes they'll see. like a grandparent as they remember them.

best like they're older but sometimes. and most of the time people are about. they say in their 30s late 20s 30s so so. she says they're in their Prime and um. but but here's a fascinating thing so. Vicky and then Brad burough who was a. 8-year-old kid also so blind from birth. when he. died he also sees his roommate hearing. him choking and his roommate stumbling.

out later reported that he too he goes. up above the the home that they lived in. saw the snow and the ploud you know and. he'd never seen his playground or and. then he goes up and he's in this Meadow. this um he say this giant Meadow of like. um beautiful Tall Grass he saw palm. trees and and he said but everything was. soaking in this light it's like this. light just soaking in everything and and. the light was was palpable you could.

feel the light and the light conveyed. Love Now Vicki said almost the same. thing so she said this light was coming. out of the birds out of the trees out of. the flowers and even out of the people. but the light was life and the light was. love all. together okay so hang on to that thought. for a. second blind people would not hear that. light comes out of everything they would. have heard on Earth that light shines on.

things. right so how do you have consistently. blind people reporting that the light of. Heaven comes out of everything and. that's what cited near-death. experiencers say as well now. interestingly back to the prophet. Isaiah Isaiah chapter. 60 God tells the prophet Isaiah there is. no sun or moon in heaven because God is. its. light Revelation 21 John one of Jesus.

disciples said he was taken up in a. vision of Heaven saw saw. heaven and he said this the city of God. which he describes he said he was up on. a very high mountain and he then. describes this city of God and he said. but there was no sun or moon for the. glory of God is its light and the lamb. referring to Jesus as his lamp and the. Nations will walk in that. light this is revelation 21 wow now H.

how do you make this up to get people. who are blind from birth claiming they I. mean they did die and then claiming. they're talking about the light of. Heaven operating the way uh uh a prophet. from 780 BC and one of Jesus disciples. in about aund you know 90 ad write the. same. thing so that's just three of the points. of evidence yeah you know and um there.

are many more let's go let's hit the. Rwanda if you don't mind and then we'll. get into the yeah of them so what's. fascinating um in this new book Sean is. that I believe God brought me. testimonies of people from I from every. continent every religious background and. yet they are consistently experiencing. the same God they're describing the same. God it doesn't matter where they are or.

what their expectation was so for. instance um this one guy in. Rwanda um fascinating story his mother. was a Hutu and his father was a. tootsie so if you know anything about. the Rwanda genocide those were the two. that killed each other. and um and his father was a a Sheik and. an imom in the Muslim religion mom was.

um a prophetess of the Native goddess. beo. and it's a long story fascinating story. um in the Rwandan. Genocide uh his family got torn apart. his father gets put in prison blames his. mom divorces his mom at age eight he. gets put out on the street pretty much. begging for food ends up uh doing drugs.

and then dealing drugs to make money and. um just you know i' been through you. know a lot of trauma a lot of a lot of. stuff and. um and then he he ends up getting blood. cancer and. he's he he's he's dying of this blood. cancer they put him on Pala of care um. his father had tried to get the the the. Muslims to you know do their rituals and. pray for him and they put the quoran on.

his head and all this and nothing worked. his mom went to you know her goddess and. tried all that that didn't work her. son's dying she goes to the Anglican. church because she had seen someone. healed in the name of. Jesus and she was desperate so she said. will you pray for my son in the name of. Jesus and she was to and they were. fasting and praying for a. week meanwhile her son.

dies so um sedik is his name he dies and. he finds himself in this hellish. place um hellish near-death experiences. are not uncommon by the way of of people. reporting near-death experiences 23%. report hellish experiences wow so I do a. whole chapter in Imagine Heaven kind of. trying to make sense of all that cuz you. can't take the good and leave the bad. you got to make sense of both right so.

he starts off having this hellish. experience in this this room that he. called like a slaughter. house and these. three creatures is all I can call them. attacking him and when he said into the. room Comes This Man of light in a robe. with a gold Sash and light just coming. out of him shooting into sw's eyes he. said and just going through my whole. soul.

and he he held out his arms like this. and swedi saw the holes in his hands and. then he knew who it was. because uh Mel Gibson's The Passion of. Christ had come to Rwanda and he had he. had seen it accidentally. and uh and so Jesus says to him I died. for mankind you're among those I died.

for never deny it and tell it to. everyone he wakes up sits up with a. cloth over his face and all these people. just start. screaming and he looks down to his right. and there's a a. grave and he doesn't know what what's. going. on so it had been overnight and they. were at his burial and he sits.

up and he starts. saying Jesus is here Jesus saved me. Jesus Jesus is the one who brought me. back and all these Muslims are going. they're just freaking. out about half of them did come to Faith. In Jesus that day because they saw it. today he is an Anglican Pastor who has. had seven attempts on his. life including his father trying to. poison him because you can't you can't.

convert in an Islamic. country and I you know I I I talk to. sedik I mean he's a he's a courageous. young guy and and he's like you know I. asked him you know are you are you. afraid and he's like why would I be. afraid he brought me back from death and. he told me tell everybody so he won't. shut. up wow let's let's move into the 10. points of evidence so after the,

1500 interviews you've conducted with. people that have had ndes what are those. 10 points well I've gone over um three. of them you know the verifiable. observations blind people being able to. see and see things they. shouldn't have have heard. um you know along with that is is are. things that are commonly reported that. are not common to earth like telepathic.

or thought Toth thought heart-to-heart. communication experienced across the. whole children doctors lawyers CEOs a. lot of the people I interview by the way. you know they're they are professionals. who have a lot to lose claiming they. went to heaven and saw God right and yet. they they say it's the most real thing. that happened to me so they're willing. to risk what the you know the harm that. causes their career. because it's why they think they're back.

here um so blind people um. experiencing people they didn't know had. died on the other side um like for. instance one woman uh in her near-death. experience sees this man who is smiling. warmly at her with this kind of like. loving look she doesn't know who this is. but has a sense like I I I know him or.

I'm supposed to know him comes back 10. years. later on her deathbed her mother tells. her she was born out of an extramarital. affair shows the picture of the man and. that was the man she saw in her. near-death experience her father. wow or in other cases someone who um you. know uh in one case it was a child who.

um who meets someone on the other side. who tells them to to. tell this other person who they knew. something and comes back and they didn't. even know that person that other person. had died but sure enough they had died. and they were bringing them message. back so you know that's the third the. the fourth is that. um you know I've chronicled about 40.

commonly. reported um elements of a near-death. experience you know things like out of. your body you know able to observe. things um new powers of sight for. instance telepathic communication this. place of exquisite beauty colors beyond. our color. spectrum um Beauty not unlike Earth but. at the same time experienced in New.

Dimensions time not working the same um. you know what do you mean by that time. not working the same well. interestingly another one of Jesus. disciples Peter in 2 Peter 38 writes to. the Lord a day is like a thousand years. and a thousand years is like a day well. in ears say the same. thing they've they've said it this way. to me they've said there was no time on. the other side or others say no there.

was time but there was all the time you. needed time didn't work the same way. there and and and it wasn't always like. linear like we experience it here it. like all happened together which we. can't even conceptualize but I talk in. Imagine Heaven about how two-dimensional. time would give that that appearance it. would it would have that feel to it um. so yeah so all these commonalities does.

that mean when you say there's no. concept of time does that mean you're. experiencing everything all at. once Well here here's the way I describe. it like in this life we experience time. as a line going in One Direction. onedimensional right so one point of to. to the next you can never go back right. or that's the way we experience. um that's one dimensional time a second. dimension would mean at every point on. that timeline there's another line going.

vertical so imagine if at every point on. our linear timeline you could experience. time on a vertical line that was. infinitely up say MH that would have the. feel that at each moment of time even. though time is moving or it can move you. all also have all the time in the world. at every point in. time I mean we we we can only we can't. experience it we can only imagine it.

right you know which is part of what I'm. trying to get people to do is. imagine so so much better than anything. we've thought of you know like people I. find people fear heaven or the life to. come because anything in this life. becomes boring I don't care how great it. is right eventually it's like I got to. do something else so we can't imagine. anything. forever but that's assuming we're.

talking about onedimensional time and. just the same thing going on forever and. it's not like that at. all I like to to say it's more like if. you've ever been in the. zone you know what I'm talking about yes. you know like like if you're if you're. creating something or you're you're so. absorbed in something you're doing that. like time's your enemy because you don't. want it to move on it's like you're just. you you've lost. time I think it's more like.

that it's a great I've not heard that. before thank. you yeah so you want me to keep going. with the oh yeah evidences the 40 points. is what we're. on well so so there there there are 40. different um commonalities that people. report like that that I've chronicled in. in the books and like I said I'm showing. how they align with what God's been. revealing all along it's not new but if.

this was just in the brain so some of. the alternate hypotheses that people. will say and there different ones that. come out every year there have been Sean. there have been like 30 alternate. explanations for near-death experiences. I've I've heard them all oh that's. exactly like in DMT that's no different. well yeah it is because you can't have. vertical perception that can be checked. out and observed you know blind people.

taking DMT can't see you know it's like. there's there's a lot of different stuff. right um plus you're. dead plus you're dead dead you're dead I. I I I like to point that people like you. know some people will say to me I wish I. could have an experience like that like. no you don't you don't know what these. people went through coming back they. almost all have a scar right there from. their tracheotomy well here's the good. news you will have an experience like.

that eventually so well the that's the. good part just won comeback The Comeback. is the bad part okay they're often. depressed coming back they don't want to. come back it's hard coming back you one. one guy told me it's like it's like. being put back into the. sewer when you've experienced Paradise. you know so anyway. um. another uh alternate. explanation that Skeptics will say is.

that um this is just in the brain like. when you're dying endorphins are. flooding the brain there are a lot of. chemicals flooding the brain it's the. brain's way of coping it just gives us a. pleasurable way of shutting the computer. down well most have gone away from that. now because they realize that doesn't. explain most of these other phenomena so. they've now said well as the brain is. rebooting then it's it's it's coming up. with this experience um and the reason.

they say that is because think about it. our memories are stored in neural. networks in our brain that's electrical. activity so when you have a flat. EEG for hours where are these memories. being stored that doesn't work right. yeah which is another point of evidence. so so so then they say well maybe it's. when the brain's being rebooted that. this all this is happening but again it. doesn't explain verifiable observations. it doesn't explain the blind doesn't.

explain meeting people you didn't know. were dead on the other side um and if. it's just in the. brain why aren't these. commonalities 100% if it's just a human. brain. thing why is it that 57% of inders. experience relatives whove died before. them why why is it 100% 57% 57% 30. 31% get a life.

review all right so they they have this. panoramic reliving of their lives but if. it's just a brain thing why wouldn't. 100% or 0% get a life. review um 48% experience the same God of. Light and love who you know like I said. is is the same all around the globe but. why wouldn't it be 100% And and why. wouldn't it be what their cultural. expectation.

was so the very fact that there are. commonalities but not commonalities that. are all 100% the same each is a bit. unique you know um if you have let's say. you have a court of law and um you know. we try to prove things Beyond A. Reasonable Doubt based on testimony. based on evidence right mhm if you have. 10 people who say exactly the same thing. about an accident or a crime that.

usually is sketchy that's. collusion because that means they talked. if they say exactly the same thing but. if they say overlapping the same thing. with different details that aren't the. same but unique well that's the. strongest testimony. and that's what you have with near-death. experiences what do you think. the life reviews.

are yeah so it's actually the most. life-altering aart from being in the. presence of God near-death experiencers. say the Life review was the most life. altering thing they'd ever. experienced it changes them so commonly. After experiencing this. is God of Light who is love who's. personal who gets them um they they can. be themselves you.

know he he will sometimes just tell them. sometimes ask them do you want to review. your life sometimes he's like I want you. to see something so it's. different and what happens again because. time doesn't work the same way they can. re-experience their whole life and. it it doesn't matter how long they were. clinically dead on Earth um and they say. you know it's like they re-experienced. it all at once but I'm telling it to you. in order like legitimately re-experience.

their entire life experience it not. certain portions no like the from birth. to death. yes and they say now again and and I. think in part this is because we're all. unique and and God knows our. uniquenesses so there's some uniqueness. is to each one so some of them um they. said God just showed me certain things. that he wanted me to see so it wasn't.

all of it but most of them I find it is. all of it like if they're 18 it's up. till they're 18 if they're 50 it's all. the way up till they're 50 and they're. watching their life replay as if almost. like a hologram but they're there and. they're reexperiencing it. one one really trippy one um this CEO he. was a pharmaceutical executive and then. a CEO of several biomedical companies. again these guys are like they got a lot.

to lose in fact when he first read my. book imagine Heaven um and and he he. came to me and he was he was nervous. about talking publicly about it because. he's like my career will be gone and yet. they do you know um. but he is there with Jesus he he had uh. six embolisms travel up his leg and had. a a pulmonary embolism blocked his.

breathing then his body goes into sepsis. shuts. down and he finds himself in again this. incredibly beautiful place and and he's. with Jesus he's walking with him and. then Jesus starts to show him these. vignettes of his life okay and it was. like a Life review now in his case it. wasn't. everything um but he showed in these. different points and this one was um.

well first he had a really hard. upbringing so uh he had no friends he. was in an out the hospital a lot uh he. was overweight so he was bullied a lot. um and and Jesus is showing him this and. he's like why are you showing me this. like he's basically like this sucks. don't why are you making me relive this. because they not only see. it you feel it you think it you remember. everything as if you were reexperiencing.

it but not just what you were thinking. and feeling what the other people you. were interacting with were also thinking. and. feeling so it's like you experience your. life in a relational way from God's. perspective that's what's life altering. about it but what was kind of cool and r. 's. case is he asked why are you showing me. this and then it dawned on. him were you there with.

me and he and he and Jesus looks at him. and he says I was always with you just. waiting for you to turn to. me and and he was basically showing them. that you know even in all the suffering. he's been there through it he's been. there with them. and. um he goes to another venue where he. sees himself now and he became an. atheist he went to Northwestern. University he tried to disprove God and.

disprove all religions and he went. through this whole uh you know he he was. a pretty mean atheist for a while and um. and so he's working as an orderly in the. hospital and he goes to serve food to. this little seven-year-old boy dying of. cancer. so this this is Randy standing with. Jesus in this heavenly experience. watching and experiencing this scene. play out. again and the little boy he comes in the.

little boy said I'm. dying but I'm going to go to. heaven and Randy. said well I'm I'm really sorry but you. know if there is a heaven I'm sure you. will go. there and the little boy said do you. believe in Jesus and he said no I you. know I don't really believe in all that. but you know I'm glad you do I'm I'm. sure you'll you'll be there and the. little boy this little seven-year-old.

dying of cancer right and he says to him. I'm going to pray for you and you'll be. there. too and Randy's standing there with. Jesus in heaven watching this little. boy pray for him who he didn't even know. and he realized izes that God used even. that in all the things of his life to. get him. there wow and so the reliving these yeah.

these life reviews what. people what people commonly say to me is. that it was their whole. life and like Dr Mary Neil said it was. like my life was laid bare for all it's. good and all it's. bad and and so they're they're seeing. this again. now here's the thing Sean. is most people fear.

that you know I have there are things in. my life I don't want to sit there and. watch before God. right and then I started to realize okay. wait a. second this is God do I really think. I've been. hiding do I really think he doesn't know. everything. that's the reality no he's been with you. always and when you start to realize the. character of God that that God cares. about us like like you care for your.

little son like I care for my daughter. and son my little granddaughters more so. infantes more so and he has compassion. and. mercy and he wants to help us it's not a. it's not a condemning that's what Jesus. said I didn't come to condemn I came to. rescue and so that's what near-death. experiencers commonly say they say God. was not judging me I was judging myself.

God was unconditionally loving me and. supporting me through this learning. about my. life why do you think Humanity does put. God in that box that we were discussing. at the beginning it where where it. is judgment. rules it's. it's like. a I've always viewed him as an authority.

like a discipl enforcer you know what. the cosmic cop yeah the cosmic cop I. like that one yeah my friend likes to. say you know we look at God like he's. sitting up there you know and he's just. a little bit perturbed and angry and. like is anybody having fun down there. well cut it out get back to work yeah. where did that come could be further. from the truth you know what the last. thing Jesus said his last night on earth. before he knew he was going to be. crucified which by the way I like to.

point out he willingly took the bullet. for. us it wasn't forced on him you know he. said you could do nothing to me if it. weren't the will of my Father in Heaven. he laid he took the. bullet and right before that that night. before he said um. this is in John chapter 15 he said I've. told you these things so that my joy. would be in you and your joy would.

overflow. so think about it everything we love. about this life you know every good. thing every beautiful thing all the. pleasures all the adventures um all the. competition I'm a soccer player I still. play uh I love it you know where we. think we got the ability to experience. good things like. that even sex you know somehow thank God. doesn't know about sex you know like who.

who thought this up who thought it up to. be. pleasurable. right every every good gift can be. abused without a doubt but that's what. you see when people encounter God in. these near-death experiences but I'm. also trying to show that is who God has. revealed himself to be all along through. scripture um they're they're not. different and and God is the most. charismatic um wome I don't know what do.

you want to say like. cool person. being imaginable but. also the. like drop to your knees in awe powerful. I mean I had people tell me that like it. just brought them to their. knees and and like this one neurologist. told me he you know the guy who he got. stabbed I don't know if I told you this.

but he one of his patients turned on him. had a psychotic break stabbed him 13. times and right before the. 14th going for his heart he said time. froze and he said suddenly I'm standing. there in front of this nuclear explosion. of light brighter than the sun like a. thousand times that I knew I must be. dead because otherwise how could I look.

at this and not have my retina burned. out that's. common and he said um what it was like. roiling with energy like if you were. standing 5T from an atomic explosion M. it's commercial airline pilot who I told. you flew into the the holy city said at. the center of the city was this. light that he said all I can describe is. if you've ever seen the light at right. at the detonation of a of a nuclear. explosion it was like that.

continuously same thing so so um Ron. this this. neurologist. um you know he he describes these. characteristics of of God that just. imprint on him. suddenly and he said you know love is. the one quality that summarizes it and. wraps it all up but he said our word. love doesn't even work really he said. you know our love like think about all.

the romantic love all the love of a. parent or a grandparent all the love you. have for a child you know all that he. said is like standing in the ocean and. its gentle waves of Love lapping up. against your knees and he said and then. comes a tsunami of. love that's God's love and it washes it. just washes away all. fear all worry he said I I didn't even. think about this thing that was. happening to me this tragedy he said.

that turned out to be the best moment of. my life wow wow that's. um and he showed me the scar that went. right through and he he knows all the. medical terms shouldn't have lived it. went right through and came out the. other side are you serious yeah. wow there was a documentary made on on. his life years ago some fascinating. stuff let's um let's take a break and. when we come back we'll dive.

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getting ready to dive into some Andes. are very hellish and in kind of painting. a picture of what hell looks. like. yeah yeah as I said before um in one. study. you know and again I told you near-death. experiencers are reticent to come. forward because they this is a sacred. experience that uh is hard to describe. in our threedimensional terms so they.

don't often come forward. readily but even of those who have come. forward 23% according to one study came. forward talking about having a hellish. experience to some degree or. another and so these are common this uh. 2019 European Academy of. Neurology um did a study across 35. countries found that um 5% of the. population or one out of 20 claims to.

have had a near-death. experience but they also found an even. greater. percentage that had. hellish um experiences or negative. experiences so you got to make sense of. these as well um. you know interestingly Jesus talked. about hell a lot as as something. real um but but not not as a uh a scare.

tactic I think it's more as a look this. is reality and what he came to do was. that no one would no one would go. there but some do in their near-death. experience so for instance I I. interviewed this atheist. um college professor tenur college. professor who was um he was an art. Professor he was doing a tour with. students in Europe in France and his uh.

his lower D dadum ruptured you usually. have like five to six hours before. you're dead because you're spilling all. that junk into your int into your. cavity and uh it was a weekend so they. couldn't find a surgeon. in. France and after 8 hours he died now he. thought when you die it's just unplug. the computer screen goes blank there's.

nothing and that's not what happened and. instead he said he was standing there by. his bed he felt the worst he had ever. felt in his life and suddenly he Felts. wonderful and he doesn't even know he's. dead like he doesn't realize he's dead. because he's sitting there thinking. something happened I feel I feel. wonderful and he feels these new senses. um this this group of people then come.

into the hallway and he can see them in. the hallway and they're calling to him. Howard come come with us and and he said. I'm I'm sick I need a surgeon you know. that's what he's been waiting for and. and they said oh we know we know all. about you come come with us don't you. want us to help you we're going to help. you come on we've been waiting a long. time come with with. us okay so time out I like to point out. that not every near-death experience is. as deep as others like meaning all the.

elements so some just there's an out-of-. body experience and they're back in okay. those can be interpreted In A Million. Ways right a million worldviews can wrap. around that um if Howard had at this. point come back to his body and been. resuscitated. his interpretation probably would have. been hey it's all good atheists go to. heaven it feels great it's nice people. everything's good but that's not what.

happened so he starts to follow these. people and again time and even. distance it it doesn't work the same on. the other side um which I don't fully. understand that except that by analogy. you know think about um you know from. from here to Austin Texas where I live. Nashville to Austin it's a long way. right it's a two-hour flight um but what.

if I could think it and be there how far. is it now yeah right all of a sudden. distance doesn't mean the same the same. thing so on the other side so he. couldn't tell and he follows these. people and they end up he end up he. starts to realize they're deceiving him. they're starting to mock him they're. they're they're cursing him they're all. these you know and and he starts to. realize this is not. good and then he realizes he's in this.

darkness and it keep keeps getting. darker and he tries to say hey I want to. go back and they're like you're not. going anywhere they start pushing and. shoving and he's in an he calls it a. Darkness that's Darker Than Black and. and I've heard people commonly say that. Jesus called it the outer Darkness where. there will be weeping and nashing of. teeth meaning like. just it's you. know I don't know I guess just horrific.

and that's what he experienced and so he. finally realizes he's being deceived by. these creatures that he couldn't fully. see completely because it was they were. kind of veiled but now it's dark and he. can't he can't see them but he can feel. them and they start to Maul him he. starts to try to fight to get away and. they just and they're having fun so that. I I've had him talk to me about this. four. times and he starts to describe it and.

then he says to me I can't go any. farther because he had PTSD from it. every single time you interviewed him he. couldn't push past yeah he there's a. certain point that he would say I can't. go any farther because it's taken me a. long time to he had what you know vets. would call PTSD because it's real it. it's more real than this and I think. that's a very important point to.

note. that what's what's ahead is better than. the best we've experienced but what's. ahead is worse than the worst we've. experienced. too and and I believe that we are in a a. temporal you know time. capsule for a purpose we are we are in a. time of. choosing we're in a time of choosing. what kingdom do we want to be a part of.

is it me and my kingdom and I. rule because as it turns out that's what. hell is hell is the creature wanting to. play God and it's dominate or be. dominated and that's what Howard. realized in this place um was really. interesting. because he said I mean first of all. picture the worst prison. scene like the worst I I years ago I saw. a movie Midnight Express you ever see.

that no I haven't uh Turkish prison you. know just just getting brutalized and. raped daily and all kinds of was a. pretty gruesome movie that's what was. going. on and so um and and just being. eviscerated and what he said several. things he said that was interesting he. said you know I I realized that these. people were my Kindred.

Spirits I said what do you mean so I. realized that they were like me on Earth. I I came to a point in my life when I. when I thought the biggest baddest bear. in the woods wins and that's how I. lived and he said I I was wasn't good to. my I wasn't nice to my students I was. all about me and building my my. monuments to myself and my ego um I. cheated on my wife a lot um it was all.

about me and he said what I realized is. that these people were like me on Earth. but when when the good was gone it just. spirals. down worse and. worse so he's in this place. and this is really fascinating he hears. he said in his like in his solar plex. cuz he he he he still was himself and he.

said he heard pray to. God and his first thought is I don't. believe in. God and he feels it again pray to God. and he's like I don't he's fighting and. and this is a very important thing Sean. because the ego can imprison. us our egos can absolutely imprison us. and he here he is literally in a hellish. Place experiencing the worst things you.

can. imagine and he's hearing this pray to. God but he's fighting. it and finally the third. time he's like I don't even know what to. pray I don't and he you know and he. starts just saying this like God Bless. America thy Country Tis of Thee. and you know he's just piecing things. together and and he's saying these. things but when he when he says the name. of God they become more angry and are.

threatening him even more but he also. noticed backing. off so the so he keeps doing it because. it's. working and then he ends up just alone. there and he said for how long I don't. know he said time doesn't work the same. it could have been. decades but he was just thinking about. his life and he was thinking. about you know.

how again on the other side truth is. truth there's no hiding and he's like. he's like this is this is who I become. this is what I. deserve but at the same time he didn't. want that and he hears in. his soul. the song he heard when someone took him. to church as a kid Jesus loves me and he. he couldn't remember anymore except. Jesus loves me and he had this thought.

and he now thinks God was even in that. trying to reach him you know in this in. this battle he's having in his own. Spirit even even then. um and he finally gets to the end of. himself you know we all have to hit rock. bottom before we look up up that's a. famous recovery principle some different. people have different Rock bottoms but. you know many times we have to hit rock. bottom before we look up and Howard said. to me my rock bottom was.

low and um and he cries out you know he. thinks to himself even if Jesus does. exist why would he care about me i' I've. been so. horrible but in desperation he just. cried out Jesus saved me and he said. into this Darkness he sees a speck of. light coming getting brighter and. brighter and brighter till again he he. describes brighter than the sun but he. could look at it and it was mesmerizing.

and Arms Reach Out pick him up take him. out of. there and he's then standing before. these angels being held by Jesus and he. gives them a Life. review now I want to I want to fast. forward for a second second because the. story sounds so like you got to be. making this. up but after this near-death experience. this Howard this atheist tenur college.

professor you know once you have tenure. you don't leave that you can't be fired. it's the most secure thing you you could. have two years after his near-death. experience he leaves his 10e college. professorship to become a Christian. Pastor his wife divorces him because. she's still an atheist a atheist and. thinks he's. crazy how do you explain that yeah and. what he would. say. Jesus you know in in the presence of.

Jesus he's he's getting this Life review. and he said some very interesting things. so he had a very abusive. father and um like like beat him. daily cursed him out daily nothing was. ever good enough. and he said you know I was seeing these. scenes of my life play out. and I was seeing that my father was he. was he was a horrible person but I was.

also seeing that there it was a two-way. street that I resented him and I did. things to provoke him and to rebel. against him and he said the the the. places where I always thought well I'm. the victim I'm the good guy and. everybody else is the bad guy he said no. I realized that God wants us to take. responsibility for for ourselves he'll. take responsibility of what's right and. wrong and who's who's where and what all. we can do is take responsibility for. ourselves and so he um when he came back.

he reconciled with his. father and his brothers and sisters. disowned him for a while because they. were like how in the world can. you can you reach out to him and become. friends with him he was. horrible and and yet that's what God. does he he restores what evil has torn. apart and broke you know and was.

broken and um so so Howard Howard has. seen all this played out and another. funny thing in his life review is he. comes to this one point and and again. what I love is that you know Howard is. um he's a very he's funny but he's also. ass and he's he's just himself with. Jesus like he feels so comfortable just. to be himself because he said I'm here. with who I realize is my Lord and and.

and savior and friend and. Creator and he said the most. loving wonderful being I've ever. imagined being with and in his life. review he's seen these scenes of him. using and abusing other people and he. said it was like I could. feel how it was hurting him like I was.

stabbing him with a knife he said not. literally but it felt that way he was. feeling the pain that he inflicted on. others is that what you're saying he was. feeling the pain it caused Jesus when he. was inflicting pain on. others and then conversely he showed him. as well a time really simple thing when. his I think his sister had lost a a pet. and was. grieving and he heard her crying in the.

middle of the night and he got up and he. went in there and he just hugged her and. he. said I was I was overwhelmed because it. it. caused God so much joy that I would do. that simple. thing which is wild if you think about. it it is but you know you know that's. what Jesus said to Paul when when he. appears as This brilliant God of light.

on the Damascus Road and Paul was. persecuting Believers in Jesus and he. said who are you Paul said who are you. Lord and Jesus said I'm Jesus who you're. persecuting but he wasn't persecuting. Jesus he's persecuting people. but that's that. Oneness right that we we come from God. and God has a connection to us he is you.

know Paul said in him we live and move. and have our being Acts chapter. 17 in other words uh he is the life. force that keeps us going he's always. been with you through the highs and lows. there's there's no one who gets you more. cuz there's no one else who's been. through everything with you understands. the why and the hows and you know it's. amazing yeah. how how many accounts of hellish NES do.

you think you've. had a lot I mean half. quarter H you know I haven't I haven't. counted. interestingly you know like some of some. of the ones that are now my friends are. now pastors really it's fascinating were. all of them were all of them. atheists no like Paulo haa um it's a.

good friend of mine he was a um he was a. cocaine. addict um he and his wife his wife was a. stripper she wasn't his wife they just. lived together um they were a part of a. c they were in an out of cartels I mean. it. was um and he has a cocaine overdose and. suddenly he's dropping he said I I was. sober and I was dropping through this.

blacker than. black he described the same way and he. was like what is happening like I'm not. high I'm and he knew I'm going to hell. and he was like oh my gosh I can't go to. hell I'm a good person I didn't do. anything wrong like I've never murdered. and he's justifying I've never murdered. anybody you know I haven't been mean to. anybody you know and he said the more he. justified the faster he felt himself.

dropping until finally he. said he just re he got to his end and he. just cried out God save me God help me. you got to help me and he didn't stop. dropping he didn't stop. falling he felt God's presence there. right with him he didn't see anything. visual but he. knew and he hears a Voice direct to his. soul Paul what have you done with the.

life I've given. you and then boom he Rees his life like. the whole the whole thing the whole life. review. and and at the end of it his conclusion. was I deserve this. and he. says God I want I want people to know I. want people to. know and he's back in the.

hospital and he comes to and says to. Lillian um who's now his wife um I don't. know what you're going to do but I'm G. to find the god that just saved. me because and and and he ends up then. coming to Faith. in Jesus and starting um a church in. Austin accidentally because he just kept. telling people about his experience who. had been in um a lot of people in you.

know addicted drugs Wiccan a lot of. stuff a lot of suicidal ideations and. all that and they would call him and um. and he would explain what happened to. him and and they would they would open. their lives. to Jesus and they would find they would. find peace and they started going like. you got to move here he was he was. living on a golf course in Houston he's. a master plumber living on a golf course.

in Houston he sells his house on the. golf course and moves to Austin and just. starts helping these people and now he. has one of the largest Hispanic churches. in Austin wow wow. what what are. some do give any more accounts where. there maybe are demons that are. encountered. yeah. yeah I'll tell you Sean I mean studying.

these has actually. changed. my my theology in this. sense even as a Christian and even as a. pastor I used to think a lot of it was. you know just Fant F astical. metaphorical. or but hearing enough of these people. saying the things they say what I've. come to is that on the good side all of.

our in some ways wildest dreams and. Fantasies and fiction and you know the. the things we only dream of that might. be possible that's better than that and. the horror that we can imagine and see. and. come up with it's worse than that and. that both are based in a reality that's. beyond this life yeah so um this one guy. that I interviewed for the new book for.

imagine the god of Heaven he's in there. um his name is is Jim Woodford and he. was a commercial airline. pilot um agnostic he grew up Catholic. but then kind of. just you know it didn't mean anything to. him ever he said never prayed today in. his life um his wife was a Christian and. and was praying for him uh he was also a. very wealthy businessman so he had. started M multi-million dollar.

businesses had a um he's a Canadian he. had a horse farm uh had 19 British. sports cars in in a garage uh a yacht. his own. airplane um but he got guon baret. disease which is very painful. got addicted to. opioids um and one night he was out. checking the fence lines of his property. feeling the pain coming on he's facing. the Setting Sun and he he went and took.

the rest of the bottle and he forgot. that he had already taken more that day. and he said he said to me you know when. you're dying he said I felt it coming up. like this fire coming up through me and. he said I I knew. it and he had this. realization. that I've never thanked God for the life. I thought was my own. making it's like boom he just has that.

realization which I have heard enough of. these to realize that you know you don't. want to wait till the last minute but. God is pursuing people to the last. minute you know he is and um and in that. in that last minute you know as his head. is about to hit the steering wheel he. cries out God forgive me and then he. dies and Jim Jim is actually a jokester.

so I like to joke with him I think you. beat the thief on the cross for last. minute yeah and he did and he says. that's who I identify you know I'm. talking about the you know because there. was there were two thieves on the cross. they're probably murderers and one of. them mocked Jesus and and the other. realized that he was probably the. Messiah that was foretold and he said. Jesus when you come in your kingdom. remember me that was.

it Jesus said nothing to the guy mocking. him and and and demanding that he get. them all down off the cross if he's. really God which is fascinating you know. we we say prove yourself to me God like. I don't need. to but the humble guy who realizes we. deserve this he doesn't will remember me. and Jesus said to him you'll be with me. in Paradise. today it's a great thing to remember. yeah there's there's nothing we can do.

to keep ourselves from God and his. love except say I don't need you I'm. good what are some of the commonalities. that you see when it comes. to Hell. experiences well let me let me finish. telling you about Jim so Jim then is. going up and he is going through this. tunnel of he calls it a tunnel of light. and then he comes out and he. interestingly had a I wouldn't say this.

is common but I've seen more common like. this where they both get a Heavenly and. a hellish. experience and I find that those. who they they cry out to God for. forgiveness last minute it's almost like. he lets them see where they were headed. before rescuing them I don't know if. that's what's really going on or maybe. he's just saying I know you're going. back and I want you to see the reality.

of both I don't know but Jim then he. sees this beauty like on the right but. then it's almost he said there was. almost almost like a line of deliniation. and then it got more and. more gray and black and then like a. almost like a black charcoal crass that. just dropped off into. nothingness and I don't know why but out. of curiosity he starts to go over there.

to see what it is and it's like he said. imagine looking down into the the. darkest black Valley you can imagine but. but darker than that and then he saw a. tiny pin point of light like a almost. like a campfire in the. distance and he hears. something open up and he sees this what. do you call a.

creature come out of it. and. um I mean in the it's in the book but. basically that creature comes for him. and knows his. name and and he realizes that you know. it it wanted to claim. him which I know I I mean honestly if I. were listening to this as my skeptical. self I'd be like uh this is make believe.

and when Jim told it to me that's what I. was thinking and if I hadn't heard. enough of them you know if I hadn't. heard enough of them uh but I. have that that I think there's a reality. to it who do you think the demons. are these creatures I think they are. created by God I think they were. Angels um and that that is what the. Bible tells us that God created another.

species. called the Angelic species just like you. know we're a species and dogs are a. species and cats are a species they are. angels and there are even either. subspecies or other species within that. there are seraphim there cherubim. they look they don't look like you know. humans with. wings um they look otherworldly and I've. had near-death experiencers describe. them to me um I know what do they look.

creatures with eyes all over them how do. they describe them I mean Ezekiel in the. Bible describes the same things that. I've heard near-death experiencers. describe so there are there. are there are life forms and there are. creatures Beyond. just what we know and see and imagine. well what let's I'd love to hear some. descriptions of what these look. like well okay so.

interestingly. seraphim looks somewhat like a. serpent but with wings and not exactly. like we would. think and. um and and of according. to the Jewish prophets like Ezekiel who. claims that they saw these creatures. around God's. Throne they inhabit that.

place and now it's it's fascinating. because um Satan who we call Satan which. just means accuser That's what Satan. means um so a Satan is an. accuser Lucifer is who we mean and and. and Lucifer means lightbearer but he was. a a cherubim he was one of these. creatures around God's Throne guarding. the. most I mean what near death experiencers.

has told me who have seen that or been. there is it is the most powerful place. in the universe it's also the most. Splendid. spectacular. energized like it's it's it's where. everyone would want to be. um but. also it's solid and physical but crystal. clear at the same time. which I don't know what that means you. know but that's what they say but.

interestingly that's what that's what. John describes in the Book of. Revelation you know that's that's what. Ezekiel a Jewish Prophet. describes um. so yeah so there are there are species. that God created Beyond Humanity that. are not bound by time and space like we. are that exist in dimensionalities. Beyond ours I believe all that I think.

the Bible teaches that I think. near-death experiencers confirm that. um. and not all of them follow God or God's. will so you know as the biblical story. goes. Lucifer Rebels and decides he wants to. raise himself above the most high above. God my will be. done and other angels.

and creatures that God created followed. him and. in. eternity this gets into why I think you. know that that age-old question why. would God if God is all loving and God. is all powerful why in the world would. he allow us to suffer like we do on this. earth right it's a age-old question um.

and and the one many atheists level at. God like that just proves there is no. God which. interestingly it can be turned back. around because if there is no God why. are we bothered by. suffering it just is it always has been. why why should it bother us we evolve. this. way but in fact the reason we. unanimously are opposed to it is that. there's something in us that tells us.

something's not. right but not right according to who. right yeah so it actually turns I think. into an argument for for God. but I think the answer to that question. is that there are creatures created by. God that rebelled against God in. eternity. which decisions that aren't made in a. sequence of time you know when we make a. decision in a sequence of.

time um we can change because it's not. an eternal. decision so so we get to choose and we. can correct our mistakes in our temporal. world but angels who chose my will not. God's. will there's only one place. where God stays. out and Jesus said he created hell for. the Angels not for.

humans so hell is the place where the. love and the light and the life and the. the rulership of God the will of God. being done does not happen God says okay. to the Free Will creature have your. way and so so hell is. Angels becoming demons and people you. know devolving into our worse selves. tyrannizing one another fight to.

dominate or be. dominated what are some of the. commonalities that you. see on hellish experiences. yes you know in imagine heaven in the in. the chapter I do on H I kind of. saw three or four I don't know if you. call it. levels but different descriptions. so one is um and I don't even know I.

don't know if it's hell per se but it's. like a. void so some experience just this void. they go into a void and it's just kind. of like a void of. nothingness um another is what I called. hell on. Earth so this one um he was actually uh. he was actually stationed at Camp.

Barkley uh in in Texas before World War. II um Dr George Richie in fact he he was. the very first one to start talking. about his near-death experience which. then led to Moody the first one who. researched it which is the book I read. decades ago wow but he heard George. Richie lecture at the University of. Virginia Moody did and then started. asking his students um in his philosophy.

class if they had ever had any encounter. with death and he hears more and more of. th those stories and wrote them down and. that's what I read the first time okay. but George. Richie um has this experience where he. he dies of like a intense uh double. pneumonia uh before he was being. deployed um to to he was going to. medical school but through the.

Army and he leaves his body same kind of. thing and he's confused because he. doesn't understand where he is because. he still feels alive and he's he's. trying to find he's supposed to be on. the train to get to medical school and. so he starts looking and he starts. traveling and going and he's again I. don't understand how you know you kind. of go like what do you mean you don't. know you're dead you're flying across. the. earth I don't know but this is what he. said is is he he he realizes he's.

traveling and he's going. across and it's it's our. Earth and he's he's trying to get to. medical school and he ends up coming to. this place and I I think it was like. right across the Mississippi River so. again he was in Camp Barkley in. Texas he ends up at at this at this bar. across this River in this city he'd.

never been to and there he he sees. someone stand outside this bar with paps. blue ribbon sign and and he stops there. and he's trying to get his attention. because he's trying to figure out where. am I and how do I get to med school okay. and um and he keeps trying to tap the. guy on the shoulder and there's nothing. like he goes right through. him and so he he starts to realize what. am I where am I am I.

dead and long story short he makes his. way back um this is actually in Imagine. heaven but he makes his way back um to. his to his. room and sees his body and then realizes. I am dead. and at that. moment this light comes into the room. same as usual brighter than the sun um. but he he sees it's it's not a light.

it's a man made of. light and he had the thought instantly. I'm standing before the Son of. God. and um again he gets a he gets a Life. review and then and he knows this is. Jesus and and and jesus takes him and. shows him. first these people on Earth who are and. and this is why I called it hell on. Earth is that they are bound to the.

things they worshiped or idolized on. Earth so one one guy he sees is is in a. bar desperately trying to steal a drink. from somebody. so he's still. enslaved but he's Inc Corporal so he he. can't fulfill the. need and he he sees that he sees a woman. following her son just nagging him just.

nagging him. still. and and so he he gets this understanding. like you know that when when when God is. not God. you know what Jesus said is love God. first love your neighbor as yourself. that sums up the whole Bible he said. right but when we put other things as. God you know what he was kind of seeing.

is that that's that's a form of hell we. continue on from this life and still. trying to get it or that person or that. thing to fulfill what Only God Can. fulfill and so so he sees that that's. another um kind of level of of hell that. I talk. about another one. um is this outer darkness which I. already described that Howard storm the.

tenur professor went. through interestingly. um others have described the same. thing uh Dr Rajiv parti was Chief. anesthesiologist. at the Bakersfield Heart Hospital he. didn't you know he he was an. anesthesiologist so he had brought many. people back claiming to have near-death. experiences and all the things we've. talked about and he'd give them a a shot. of antis psychotic drug and go check the.

stock market because he thought they're. delusional he didn't believe it and then. he had one he had one he had. one and um he he had. uh yeah he he ended up in the LA. hospital um ruptured septic the whole. thing he codes he finds himself. initially in a hellish. place and and very similar to Howard and.

he. described I mean this is an. anesthesiologist who's Hindu who grew up. in. India he's got a lot to lose and he's. describing hell as this this place of. both darkness and fire and these evil. creatures that are running around. torturing him and. others how descriptive did he get with. the. torturing um descriptive what like what.

you know. and I don't even like to describe it. because it just doesn't sound. real you know but like stuff we would do. to torture each other you know like B. and Nails kind of stuff and um. um cutting open to but in ways to. prolong the pain and the agony so here's. the other weird thing Sean that I've. I've. I've I don't know that I fully.

understand is that it seems like on the. other side we do. still have a body we still are ourselves. we can still feel stuff and in fact we. feel it exponentially more the good and. the bad. and a lot of the evil things we see on. Earth is just a it's just when evil can. use us to get its will done to each. other but there's there's God's spirit.

constraining and there's law which is. from God as well constraining evil here. what happens when you take that. away and evil is not. constrained and it just. devolves so so yeah I mean the describe. they describe stuff like that and. that you know that is why I. believe God allows the suffering we're. going through.

now we say how could God allow so much. suffering What If. instead it's God's merciful warning for. a short period of time truncated. immensely in other words we've been been. squeezed. down in our experience of good so that. we can only experience a small amount of. how evil things can get so this life is. a taste of heaven and a taste of Hell.

very reduced so that we choose so that. we see that God's will is good and he. did what he did through Jesus to forgive. us all so the only thing that can keep. us separated from God is. ourselves you know CS Lewis who's he was. a Oxford scholar he's one of my favorite. uh authors once said the the gates of. hell are locked from the. inside I think he's.

right I think after interviewing so many. near-death experiencers and some have. even said it it's like it's not God's. will that anyone would go to hell but if. they don't want God. like I If you're a Hitler you know or. Stalin or you know Taliban or whatever. and and you want to be God you want to. determine who lives who dies who does my.

will what's God supposed to do take. someone into heaven and make them. obey against their will well that would. be hell for. them right. mm and and so in fact fact I think God. allows the suffering but in the midst of. the good and he's always with us through. it and he's also always trying to get us. to just turn to him so that he can lead.

and guide us not only through it but out. of it and and. to to undo evil with good what about. commonalities between the people that. have hellish experiences have you. noticed any. anything in common with with the with. the folks that have those type of. experiences versus having getting more. Blissful well here yeah I mean here's. here's one of the both.

hopeful and also. interesting is that most of the hellish. experiences I've talked. to have at some point they cried out to. God for forgiveness. and he rescued. them so this Rajiv party uh like I said. Hindu. anesthesiologist um he does from that he. cries out to God and he and he said I I.

was he he used the word repenting I was. I was realizing my wrongs he'd been. verbally abusive toward his toward his. son he had become addicted to. painkillers he was just all about. materialism um he also got a life. revieww and saw how he treated his. patients poorly they were just an object. to make more money he sees all this and. and then he said these these two angels.

take him through this tunnel out of this. hellish experience to this place of. exquisite beauty you know mountains and. rivers and forests and all this and into. the presence of this God of light who. who knows him who is. love um and. later he encounters the same God of. Light and says to him just like Paul in. the Damascus wrote who are you Lord.

because because he realizes this is this. is not this is not one of the Gods I. learned of in Hinduism he's merciful. he's loving he's compassionate I thought. he was going to send me back to hell I. deserved it but he didn't and he sends. me back and he says you still have a. purpose and I want you to learn and I. want you to I want you to. love and so he sees this God of Light. again he says who are you Lord and he. says out of the light steps a man in a.

robe with a beard gold Sash and says to. him I'm Jesus your. savior wow wow see you got a randan imom. you got a anesthesiology ol ologist who. is Hindu another I have a manufacturing. engineer I haven't told you about fully. who grew up in India as well describes. the holy city of. God um the cartel couple cartel.

couple and and and here's the. point God is good even to those who. don't deserve it and none of us deserve. it do you think there are different. levels of hell I. do because they've told me those. that those that. um near-death experiencers who who had a. taste said some like Howard said they.

even told him that like this is nothing. wait till you see where we're going to. take. you how many levels I don't. know let me say different places. different. you know what I would say is the the. world to come is. vast you know. so there are there are vast amounts of. good places in the world to come are.

there levels to. Heaven. um yeah um which which will throw some. people but in this sense. like so um. the center of the holy city of God is. the Throne of. God now and I talk about this and. imagine the god of Heaven. that even even talking about The Throne. of God and and God the father on his.

throne and this spectacular thing God is. more than. that so God incarnated in the person of. Jesus as a as a a a representation of. God in human. form I personally believe that there in. the Heavenly City where when we're we're. not bound by our three dimensions but. we're our spiritual bodily selves in a.

new. realm that God the Father manifests in a. in a way that the residents of Heaven. can see God but the Bible tells us that. God is spirit and that he he is both. everywhere. simultaneously and. Beyond everything he's. created he's so he's in everything and. sustaining everything there's nowhere. he's not at any point in time but he's.

not just the sum of all of his creation. he transcends he's he's. beyond all of his. creation and what's Wild is hearing. near-death experiencers who had no. theological understanding no biblical. understanding and they're describing the. same thing A lot of. people are talking as if we're now in. end. times I'm just. curious if you see any.

symbology or if you think that we're. approaching end. times you. know I don't typically go there MH um. and the reason I don't is because Jesus. said no one knows the day or the time. mhm so I don't know but I'll tell you. what I what I do know that I find. fascinating um one thing is as I as as. evil seems to be.

increasing I believe God is giving. increasing testimony of his reality and. goodness and I think these near-death. experiences all over the world are. that I think he is saying this day of. global internet connectedness look I'm. the God of all people I love all people. equally it doesn't matter where they. live or their background or what they've. been through and what he did through. Jesus he did for all people for all time.

so I think he's doing that now having. said that there's something that um. happened in. 1948 that was a precursor to the end. whatever the end when whenever the end. is and it also was one of the things. that most convinced me that God is real. back 30 plus years ago um when I was. still you know like trying to really.

think all this through and understand is. there evidence for it. so in the book of Isaiah you know Isaiah. wrote like I said in 780 BC 780 years. before Jesus um in in Isaiah chapter. 11 God says to him in the last days I. will put a. sign before all the. nations again he's he's speaking to all. the nations people don't realize that.

about the Bible he's always thinking. about everyone and he says I will. reather the scattered people of Judah. the Jewish people from the four quarters. of the earth so north south east and. west and reest establish them in their. land again and they will never be. displaced. again so he says that in Isaiah chap 11. and and the second time he was going to. reather him the first time was in was in.

um 586 BC when they were scattered to. the Babylonian they were conquered by. the Babylonians they were displaced from. their land then they came back they. rebuilt the temple you know the rebuilt. Jerusalem all that. in. um in 30 ad Jesus is. crucified and the week before that he. comes in on the. donkey and he is looking out over.

Jerusalem and it says he weeps over the. city and he says if you had only known. on this day what would bring you. peace but now your enemies are going to. come on you and and Scatter you to the. Nations because you did not recognize. the time of God's coming to you so he. says. that so Jesus is crucified in 30 ad this. is all history like historians would not. doubt this m 70 AD 40 years later okay.

so 40 years was the time of the. Israelites wandering in the desert when. they rebelled against God I believe from. crucifying Jesus you know 40 years I. think God was giving to to see their. mistake. but 70 AD Roman general Titus marches on. Jerusalem levels a city levels a temple. Temple still hasn't been rebuilt to this. day but the Jewish people were. scattered and for n and and Jesus had.

said that was going to happen Isaiah the. prophet 700 years had said that's going. to happen as a sign to all the. nations from 70 AD to. 1948 1900 years the Jewish people didn't. have a land they didn't have a king or a. president they didn't have a Common. Language I mean when has there ever been. a people scattered for 1900 years with. none of that that remained a people how. could.

they and. yet in Isaiah chapter 66 again written. before. Jesus God says through Isaiah can a. nation be born overnight of course the. answer is no it's not happened he said. yet no sooner is Zion and Zion's the. mountain on which Jerusalem is you know. established in labor then she gives. birth to her children and he says I will. bring I will bring um Jerusalem back and.

celebrate with with. Jerusalem in. 1948 okay after the holocost I mean. imagine the birth pays of this this. birth that's to come Evil's trying to. wipe out the Jewish. people and I believe because this is a. major sign to all the nations you know. it's God's sign of that he cares for all. nations that's what he said it.

was Jewish people from you know Russian. Jews German Jews Ethiopian Jews. Australian Jews American Jews from all. over come back and start to resettle. Israel and in 1948 the UN declared. Israel a nation. overnight I have the article in the New. York Times wow but God said. it you know 2,700 years ago Jesus said.

it and then it happened and he said it. would be a sign to all the. nations so that had to. happen before the end. Jesus then also said in in Matthew. chapter 24 he was talking about all the. things that are going to happen in the. end. times and he said something that was. interesting he. said when you see the Fig Tree start to.

Blossom you know it's. spring even so you know summer is. near in the same way when these things. start to happen this generation will not. pass away until all of it is. accomplished okay so I always thought. well wait a second that wasn't that's. not true like they the generation he was. talking to there did pass away and it. wasn't all. [Music].

accomplished but maybe what he meant is. the Fig Tree the Fig Tree was always a. symbol of of. Israel and so when the Fig Tree starts. to Blossom you know summer's near when. when the leaves come out again when it's. when it's brought back to. life so does that mean when Israel was. brought back to life in. 1948 one. generation and then the question is. what's a generation it's a generation 70.

years or is it everyone who was alive in. 1948 and might be 100 years old so it. might be 19. 2058 I don't know and I don't speculate. M you know what what I what I say to. people who are like. all worried and fearful that it's you. know it's going to be the end I say. you're right it's going to happen in. your lifetime it's going to end in your. lifetime cuz we're all going to die M so.

I don't know how you know but we don't. need to worry about that it's like live. for what matters and there's nothing to. fear when these when these folks that. have the hellish and. experience do. you all of them do the majority of them. do they. convert I. mean a lot.

do not not all. do I don't know actually do I know. anyone who's had a hellish. experience I think if they don't they. don't talk about it they bury it and run. from. it cuz I can't think of anyone who. hasn't. um but maybe it's maybe they just don't. talk about it I don't know.

interesting I would think they would. they would uh but it sounds like. everybody that you brought up. had yeah I mean the kind of. converted well and and and convert I. guess what do you mean by that I mean. are they a Believer now yeah you know I. mean all the people I've just about all. the people have talked about are. followers of. Jesus so they came back seeking and you.

know they discovered let's talk we have. a couple of uh of random topics to to. bring up that uh you thought would be a. good idea so I'm just going to bring him. up let's talk about the Hindu man that. describes the city of God oh well and. this is in the category of why I wrote. imagine the god of Heaven like I said. before I really. believe that God is raising up these. testimonies all over the. globe that he is the God of all.

Nations um you know from from Genesis 12. like we talked about where he he said. he's going to raise up the Abraham and. Sarah to bless all nations Jesus comes. he says he L he took the bullet you know. he because we are all meant to be his. children and so like a good parent he. went in front of the the line of fire. what is required for. justice and he took the bullet for us so. we don't have to and then he.

said tell all the nations there's. forgiveness offered in my name so again. all the nations Revelation 7 John is. seeing heaven and he said there around. the Throne of God are people from every. nation and tribe and language and people. group so God's going to do it like. somehow some way and I think he's I.

think that's part of what these. near-death experiences in our age of. global global. communication when I couldn't have. written this book five years ago yeah. because I I interviewed this Rwandan a. mom and Australian and you know guy in. Singapore and you know all these people. all over the world that I could. interview by zoom and their story can be. heard but that couldn't have happened. even five years. ago and so that's what I think he's.

doing. so I um. Santos became a good friend of mine um. dear man he he grew up in India and uh. Hindu background his father was a. Sanskrit scholar. so he knew the Hindu scriptures really. well um he has his. um his his. gallbladder erupted into his pancreas. and caused his blood pressure to shoot. up over 200 um or his heartbeat was like.

200 beats per minute and they couldn't. get it down they couldn't operate and he. cated and he hears code blue code blue. and then he's above his body and This. brilliant God of Light he knew was a. Divine Light he said and he said he said. to me in the interview he said you know. I always thought when you die it's. either nothing or maybe I would come. back as another life form he said but.

that didn't happen instead this this. Divine Light comes to him and he said I. fell in love with this light because I. knew it was good and there to protect me. and and cared about me and he follows. and he travels through again these. tunnels that he he said they they went. through and he comes to this place. and he's parked up on a platform.

overlooking what he he described it to. me as a giant compound I've been to. India many times we helped build a. hospital in in India and India if you've. ever been have you ever been you know. they comp compounds there high walled. gated communities everywhere at least. where I've been and um he described it. that way but he said on the other side. your eyesight is like. telescopic so I could see like thousands.

of. miles each side and it was Square shaped. and and thousands of miles and inside. just these Lush gorgeous just. spectacular Beauty and grounds of nature. but but also these buildings of. Otherworldly building material and he's. he's a manufacturing engineer so that's. what he would. notice um otherworldly Building Material. uh these spectacular beautiful buildings. and he saw people um he saw and and he.

said I I long to go in there he said I. realize this is the this is the place we. all would love to be that's what he said. and he he saw 12 gates he said I counted. them I could see them all 12 gates all. the way around and he said they were. closed to me and he looks at the nearest. to try to find a way in and he sees. Angels outside the gates and he said. then I realize I'm looking at the. Kingdom of. Heaven all right now what he.

described is to the tea what John. describes in Revelation chap 21 when he. says he was taken in his Spirit up to a. very high mountain um that others have. described the mountains taller than the. Himalayas overlooking the city and. interestingly John says he's he. describes the city and somehow he reads. the names on the foundation. Stones how unless he's saying he too had.

telescopic vision and this is in the. Bible right John describes a walled. gated. city. square-shaped um and 12 gates and Angels. outside the gates exactly as Santos. describe he Santos had never read the. Bible all he knew was Hinduism and then.

interestingly he's like where am I and. he's looking around he realizes he's up. on a high platform very high and there's. no railing and he looks down to his. left and he say. he it was hell he said he was he was. looking into what I think was a vision. of hell I don't think hell is right. outside the city of God and again I. think that's where time and distance and. space they work differently but God.

showed him that he and he said it was a. it was a an abyss he said it was a. dark hopeless. Abyss that he said had a lake of fire at. the bottom which. even as a pastor I thought that was. metaphor cuz I was like you can't have. utter darkness and a lake of fire the. fire lights up the darkness. MH I don't get it not there huh I don't. well I don't get it but they said it and.

this is a Hindu guy yeah you know this. is not someone trying to prove the Bible. so I you know there's a lot of this that. changed me to kind of go well maybe it's. not all metaphor like I thought you know. or as much metaphor as I. thought so then Santosh is. like he he he doesn't want to go there. he wants to go in the city and he's. looking for another way in and he turns. and looks and there he said he sees a. throne and who he said he knew this was.

the. almighty so this is God and he knew the. brilliant light was God but in this case. he was in the form of a man but. giant which. again I would have said. like. what but I heard so many say this so I. don't know what to do this is all all of.

these wow so all the all the. descriptions are very similar very Sim. they. overlap the ones I'm all the ones I'm. telling you have others who say the same. things otherwise I kind of just put them. on a Shelf. until I hear multiple ones reporting the. same things I kind of put it on a shelf. and like yeah maybe do you have this all. mapped out somewhere I'm just I wrote. two books I mean yeah I mean I mean but, 1500 is oh yeah I have I have so many.

documents just you know Word documents. of interviews and zoom interviews. recorded and and um you know audio. interviews recorded how were you able to. map them all into. theal commonalities yeah took 35. years I mean I'm not kidding it's like I. didn't just set out to do this I'm. just obsessively curious and I don't. know why I you know I I do know why I.

now know why I think this is God's. mission for me and you know there were a. lot of things along the way that I'd ask. like why did I do that why did I become. an engineer if you wanted me to start a. church for SK itics you know. like but all of it had a reason now I. see that you know my engineer brain. trained me like when things don't make. sense just hold on to them you know keep. keep at it until the puzzle pieces start. to fit and that's what he's used in this.

research too so real quick with Santos. what was amazing. is in the presence of the almighty you. know he sees he sees this he's and he. told me later he believes this was the. glorified Jesus on his throne because. what he described is what John described. in Revelation chapter one it's what. Daniel described and Daniel chapter.

7 um this man of light feet glowing. bronze and like face like the sun eyes. like lightning he doesn't always appear. like that mhm he doesn't but he did to. Santos he did to bibe and. ton um so appears differently at times. to different people I you know. but he Santos thinks he's going to he's.

going to cast him into hell because he. has a Life review and he sees all his. sins and he knows you know that's what I. deserve and when God speaks to him he's. he has s he said I felt such tenderness. and mercy and compassion and love he. said Santos I'm sending you back to. Earth and when you go back you must love. your family and especially your daughter. she needs your help right. now which is fascinating yeah I mean you.

know this is supposedly the Christian. God here's a Hindu man but he knows. intimately what his daughter's going. through and how his daughter needs her. father that amazing you know and he. comes back and well first of. all when he when he feels this. compassion and tenderness and. forgiveness from the Lord he gets bold. and he sees right next to the throne he. said he he called it this very narrow. gate or door that was open to him the.

only one that was open into what he. called the kingdom of. heaven and he said Lord when I come back. how do I go through that door I want to. go through that that door into into your. kingdom how do I do. it which is interesting because God does. not often give instruction or. Direction and again I think it's because. he wants to know will we seek him and he. says if you seek me with all your heart.

you'll find. me but he did say this to Santos because. Santos was thinking you know what church. do I go to what mosque what Temple what. I'll go anywhere and he was thinking. religion like once a week religion. that's what he was thinking in his mind. and the Lord said no I want. relationship I want to know how honest. how sincere will you be with me not one. day a week 365 days a year how sincere.

and honest will you be with. me and then he said to him the wages of. sin is. death which is a Bible verse you know. the next part of it is but the free gift. of God is is forgiveness through through. Jesus but he didn't tell him that part. which is interesting he waited for him. to come back and seek and then he said. to. him. um surrender yourself to me.

daily and walk with. me and Santos told me I was actually. confused when I came back because I was. like I know the gods of of the of the. Hindu scriptures and. this God of of of light and and love. this Mighty Almighty giant you know he. said he was compassionate and tender and. he knew all my wrongs I knew what I. deserved and yet he he forgave me he was. compassionate who was this and he's.

seeking him he's praying every day I. want to know you I want to know you two. years later his. daughter is invited to sing she was a. coral major in college she's invited to. sing in a choir at a church with her. friend Santos goes to hear her and when. he walked in he felt the same loving. presence of that God of. Light and the message that day is on the. narrow. gate and how Jesus is the gate through.

which you enter into the kingdom of. heaven and he told me he said I was. like this is just for me and he he goes. home and he starts reading the Bible and. he said everything I experienced was in. this. book wow and he became he became a a. very devoted follower of. Jesus now Santos passed away last.

month um and. uh yeah it's been it's been pretty cool. because what he what he wanted more than. anything he loved his family so much and. he knew that's what wanted him to do was. to love his family and um so I've been. able to be a little bit in contact with. them and it's really cool to see see. them. even um opening up to what what he was. saying yeah I'll bet I'll bet that's.

because again you know it's like he he W. it's you know people get caught up in. like well you're saying your religion is. the right religion no no you. know Muslims don't perfectly keep the. five pillars of Islam Buddhists don't. perfectly keep the eight-fold path of. Buddhism Christians and Jews don't. perfectly keep the Ten. Commandments um atheists don't perfectly. keep their own moral.

code they too hurt people and do things. that they later regret and have to. apologize for you know none of us none. of us are. perfect and what God wants people to. know is that he is a God who is willing. to forgive all so that we'll walk with. him just like he told. Santos man you know I was going to go. further but that seems like the perfect. way to end this but um so John if if.

there's nothing else that you'd like to. discuss I say we cut it right there. sounds good well man I just. uh I just want to say thank you for. coming on and and and sharing your. experiences and and with interviewing. these people and and your take on a. multitude of different subjects that I. threw at you I'm sure some of them were. a surprised but actually there is one. there is one uh one last question and.

that is why did you write imagine the. god of Heaven what was the goal behind. that. one you know Sean it was because I I. want people to see how. God gets. you and he's crazy about you like crazy. about you which sounds. weird but what I've realized is that. each one of us is unique to him you know.

people will say to me they're billions. of people how could he care about me I. have that same thought when I go through. airports I look at all these people you. know and they're like it's just a crowd. to me. right and yet what in the ears have told. me is that when when they were with him. consistently they say I felt like I was. the only one he. loved one one Jim Woodford said I uh I. thought about others and then I realized.

oh he loves them like they're the only. ones and that's because and another one. Dean Braxton told me that he what he. realized experiencing that is that God. has a unique love love that's only for. you because no one else he created is. like. you and I want Skeptics to. know like when I was a skeptic there's a. ton of evidence this is not Blind Faith.

you know there's a ton of evidence that. this is real and this is. true so that they will put their trust. in God you know Faith why does God care. about faith because faith is just trust. and you can't have a relationship. without trust and relationship is what. God. wants and so then you know for others to. see how the heart and the character of. God is good and.

accessible that that even though it's. mysterious and I'll admit you know like. um how do you hear the voice of God how. do you walk with a god you can't see and. can't hear and I go into that. um because just like communication on. the other side is thought to thought. that's how God speaks to us to our. thoughts and you have to start to learn. to. discern and as you act on those you look. back and you see like in an amazing way.

like oh my gosh okay like he is with me. and when I'm willing to listen and do. what I think he's saying he he shows. me and um and so I wrote it for that. reason because I want people to see that. God is the God of all. Nations he doesn't like one group of. people more than another one's not more. special than the other there's nothing. you do have done or ever could do that.

could. change God's love for. you and he proved that by taking the. bullet so that he could be. just and he is just you know like like. wrongs have to be paid for wrongs have. to be writed to set things right but he. was willing to pay that price for us so. that we can walk with him and become the. people he created us to. be well thank you for doing it it's um.

thanks for having me on it's my pleasure. and uh once again John it's a real honor. to have you here so let an honor to be. here thank you I hope to uh meet you. again same God bless. [Music]. Today's Show is sponsored by. helixsleep.com. Sleep especially as you get older is so.

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