Hsiao Bi-khim | 蕭美琴 - Vice President of Taiwan | SRS #210

[Music]. Shia Kim, welcome to the show. Thank you and welcome to Taiwan. It's an honor to be here and uh I just. want to say before we start, thank you. so much for the hospitality. You have. treated me and my team extremely well. We've learned so much in the couple of. days that we've been here. And I just. want to say that I have been following. this situation for many years and this. has been my number one interview that.

I've wanted to do and I just it's an. honor. So, thank you for hosting us. Yes. Well, hospitality is an important. part of our culture and we're always. eager to welcome friends and eager to. foster opportunities for better. understanding. So, I'm really uh glad. that you've come out all this way uh to. do this interview and uh it really. demonstrates uh a very strong interest. and commitment to a partnership and. friendship between our peoples.

Thank you. Well, I think that I believe. that this is the most delicate situation. in the entire world right now and um I. would just like to bring exposure and to. be able to get your story out there. uh. for everybody to hear. And so before we. start, everybody everybody gets a gift. Yes. Oh yeah. Gummy bears. Gummy bears. Thank you. Made in the USA. Vigilance Elite. Made. in Michigan. So I hope you enjoy them.

Thank you. Lake Michigan. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. So I'll start off with an introduction. here. So do I give my present to you, too? Oh, we can wait. Okay, we can wait on that. Yes, thank. you. Shia Kim, vice president of Taiwan. The. 13th and current vice president of the. Republic of China, Taiwan. You have a. Taiwanese father and an American mother. Born in Japan. You grew up in Tynan, Taiwan, and later in New Jersey. Degrees.

from both Oberlin College and Columbia. University, equipping you with a unique. perspective on Taiwan's role in the. world. served as Taiwan's representative. to the United States from 2020 to 2023, strengthening Taiwan US ties during a. critical period of heightened tensions. with China. a trailblazer who made. history by attending President Joe. Biden's 21 2021 inauguration, the first. time a Taiwanese representative was. officially invited since the US severed.

formal diplomatic ties with Taiwan in. 1979, stating, "Democracy is our common. language and freedom is our common. objective." a target of Chinese. sanctions blacklisted by Beijing in 2022. and 2023 for your alleged support of. Taiwanese independence, reflecting your. pivotal role in Taiwan's resistance to. Chinese pressure. And once again, I just. want to say that I do believe and my. entire team believe this is the most.

delicate and fragile situation in the. entire world. So, it is an honor to be. here and I'd like to start with. Taiwan makes. worldrenowned semiconductors and it runs. the entire modern world and I would just. like to get your perspective on how. Taiwan was able to do that. Mhm. Well, um in the technology sector and is. specifically on the chips, uh it took us.

decades uh to build this particular. capability and um it involves not only. the chip making fabs um which uh. Taiwanese are also now investing in the. United States to to make them in the. states, but um an ecosystem of hundreds. and thousands of small and medium-sized. companies from the designers to the. chemical suppliers to the machine tools. um the the you know the entire ecosystem.

that is within a compact uh geographic. region of the island called Taiwan and. um the logistics coordination the inter. integration of this ecosystem uh has. functioned and grown in a way that is. extremely efficient. So Taiwan has been. able to produce not only uh the high-end. most advanced chips but we have been. able to do that in a cost effective.

efficient and reliable way and I want to. emphasize the word reliability because I. think in technology um especially. technology that empowers everything from. AI to our phones um home electronics. that involve privacy and confidence. um trust and reliability are very. important. And so I think Taiwan has. managed to integrate that cost. efficiency, a comprehensive ecosystem as.

well as trust and reliability that comes. with our cherished value of freedom um. together to make Taiwan um a very. critical part of the global technology. supply chain. Um but we do have to give. credit to a number of um uh leaders in. this industry of course for their. foresight. For example, uh Dr. Morris. Chang who's now in his 90s. I have great. admiration for him for his foresight and.

vision in in understanding how to run a. business. You know, he came from the. United States. He was part of Texas. Instrument and you know, he he came with. expertise from a very good American. education. um and you know really put into this. industry as along with many other uh. leading Taiwanese scientists uh who were. also um you know educated and trained uh. in the United States and and built this. industry here in Taiwan. And so we see.

this as not only a Taiwan ecosystem but. broadly speaking a Taiwan USA ecosystem. of advanced technology uh that serves to. you know power human advances um that. serves to you know protect our freedom. uh that serves to uh continue with you. know global scientific uh discoveries. and uh this ecosystem is so important to. the extent that you know the G7 and.

others other countries have repeatedly. emphasized that Taiwan plays a critical. role in fostering global stability and. prosperity. I mean Taiwan produces 60% of all chips. in the world and 95%. of all the high-end chips. I mean, can. you elaborate a little bit on just for. just for the audience that that doesn't. understand the importance of how much of.

society has run off these chips? Can you. can you dive into that just a little. bit? Well, um, you know, chips power. everything from your smartwatches on you. to your phones to your cars, um, all the. electronic equipment around you, microphones. Um and so you know chips. really power and connect the modern. world and um Taiwan chips especially the. advanced chips uh that are now widely.

used in smartphones um are also uh. critically important for uh making those. global connections enabling the internet. um enabling AI and we will continue to. contribute uh in a way that uh helps to. advance technology. and a lot of defense tech as well. Oh, for sure. Yes. How much trade goes through the straight. you know there have been estimates of.

somewhere between 20 to 50% of maritime. um the value of global maritime trade uh. that. 20 to 50%. Yes. Yes. Well, the you know, US. government officials have been talking. about 50% of global maritime trade. And. you know, if we look at container value. and and other you know, shipping. records, um it's at least uh 20% and. beyond. And um the Taiwan Strait, if you. look at the world map, is right at the. center of the western Pacific um in a a.

growing uh a region uh with growing uh. economic uh weight in the world and not. only in terms of manufacturing. production uh but also in importing high. value energy um and other goods from. around the world. And so in terms of. maritime trade, um Taiwan also sits. right at the center um at a pivot of. global uh the how the global economic.

system and could truly function. And you. really you you you look at the global. map, you know, there are some points uh. for example the Suez Canal, the Red Sea, the Taiwan Strait um you know really key. key locations where if um if compromise. if the freedom of navigation uh is. compromised would have a dramatic impact. on the global economy. I mean I have 2.5. trillion in trade running through the.

street. and with so much geological turbulence. how are you maintaining or even. depending deepening trade relations with. key partners around the world. Um, you know, we are indeed in a very. complicated geopolitical environment and. we seek, you know, to balance that. concern and anxiety about geopolitics. with a continuing confidence, uh, that.

supports good business and investments. And, um, so, you know, Taiwan, you know, we're we're a relatively small island. um we are heavily dependent on global. trade as well as our connections with. the rest of the world and we plan on. deepening that diversifying that um uh. over 10 years ago over a decade ago you. know Taiwan's economy was much more. integrated with the Chinese economy over. 80% of outbound investments went to.

China um but our government has called. for diversification that is we cannot be. vulnerable to putting all our eggs in. one big basket. um we need to. consolidate partners with other. like-minded democracies and uh so those. figures have been through very dramatic. transformations uh including uh more. engagements with the Southeast Asian. countries uh significant investments in. the United States um and now the United.

States has become one of our top. investment destinations especially in. the area of of high-tech um a a very big. Taiwanese company TSMC which produces. chips uh has already made $165 billion. commitment uh to investments in the. United States and that is the largest. green field investment from a foreign. country in American history. Uh so that. is a very meaningful contribution. You.

know, think about this. We're, you know, a small country, but we are making the. largest single green field investment um. in American history. And that will. contribute to technology resilience, uh. to the diversification of of uh supply. chains. Um and and you know, we we do. want to deepen those ties. you know, we. Taiwanese uh have benefited from. American innovation, research, design, um development uh and.

um you know, we also depend on the. American market. Uh so we do want to uh. be well integrated uh with reliable and. trusted partners. Uh from the economic. perspective, it's it's my understanding that there. are only 11 countries plus the Vatican. that verbally outright say that they. stand with Taiwan. It's also my understanding that China. has been sort of picking these off one.

by one by by by. influx of of money. How are they how how specifically are. they doing that? Well, it's a a for unfortunate situation. that only um um 11 countries uh. recognize Taiwan in a diplomatic context. and we lost um Honduras a couple years. ago. Uh they uh made all kinds of claims.

uh such as um a huge Chinese market. buying more goods from Honduras. But I. think the Hondurans have discovered that. instead of making more money off the. Chinese market, the Chinese trade. surplus over Honduras uh has only. widened and some of their uh export. markets are running into uh some. significant challenges. But um I I think. the Chinese uh tend to use multiple. tools of coercion. um plus uh economic incentives or.

promises that they may or may not keep. uh once countries uh switch their. allegiance or diplomatic ties. Um so, you know, we want to to keep these. partners um standing with Taiwan. Um in. the Americas, in Latin America, um our. sole partner is Paraguay. In Central. America, it's Guatemala, Bise, and a few. Caribbean islands uh who still recognize.

and stand with Taiwan. And uh we want to. work with them on you know economic. partnerships on uh public health um on. you know empowering small medium-siz. enterprises on on on continuing growth. uh but we also count on the United. States and others uh to also stand with. our friends and our partners. I mean, with with with the fact that. Taiwan produces 95% of all of the the.

the high-end semiconductors, I do I I don't understand why more. countries don't verbally come out and. say that they stand with Taiwan. I mean, the repercussions. if China were to invade and take those. chip factories would be detrimental to. the entire world. And so what what will it take to get. more countries to.

to verbally come out and say that they. stand with Taiwan? Mhm. Well, um you. know, besides those who have diplomatic. ties with Taiwan, um a a a larger number. of countries, uh most of them democratic. and freedomloving countries have um come. out to support Taiwan's meaningful. participation in international. organizations. Um they have also highlighted the. importance of peace and stability in the.

Taiwan Strait. Um the United States, for. example, uh we don't have formal. diplomatic ties. Um however, through the. Taiwan Relations Act, uh the US. continues to help Taiwan fortify our. ability to defend ourselves, including. through the sale of uh defense articles, um and uh other initiatives supported by. the National Defense Authorization Act. um and other countries around the world,

especially in our own neighborhood, um. the Japanese, the Filipinos, for. example, um are also facing um a. heightened degree of coercion uh from. the People's Republic of China. um China. um through their activities in the South. China Sea, through military drills um. much more intensified. uh military presence in this region uh. are also posing potential threats uh to.

our other. uh partners in this neighborhood. Now. the Chinese military presence has gone. as far as uh Australia and close to New. Zealand in the Tasmanian Sea and um you. know their their intentions obviously do. not stop with Taiwan. and so I think it's all the more. important that there is a greater degree. of understanding this uh but also in. working together to fortify.

um our defenses. Uh we in Taiwan believe. in sustaining peace through strength. We. are all peaceloving people. We certainly. do not want to see conflict. Uh we. will do everything we can to prevent a. war or conflict from happening. Uh but. Taiwan alone will not be enough to deter. the aggression. And uh we do need to. work to further establish partnerships.

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helixleep.com/srs. for 27% off sitewide. helixleep.comsrs. I spoke with. a few gentlemen and a a woman yesterday. at the the foreign affairs uh ministry. of foreign affairs and and the the. subject of tariffs came up. and so it's my understanding that Taiwan.

was the the first one to come to the. negotiating table with President Trump. to to come to a resolution. And on top of that, on top of those. tariffs, uh, the subject of Ukraine came. up that that Taiwan wanted to help fund. Ukraine, uh, in their defense against. Russia and that they had denied aid. Why. did they deny aid? Um, well, first let me talk about the. the tariffs. Um, you know, as I said in.

the outset, Taiwan, US economies are. very important to each other. Um, you. know, this partnership has enabled. Taiwan to to grow in strength. Uh, it it. has also allowed Taiwanese companies to. support growth and profit uh in the. United States. It's an ecosystem that. that benefits both of our societies. So. we are uh hoping to reach an arrangement. uh with the current administration on a. significant reduction of tariffs and.

other non-tariff barriers uh as well as. supporting some new investment projects. uh such as in the area of semiconductor. chips but also in energy and. acquisitions. Um so you know we are in. the process of trying to work that out. and hope that uh we will have some uh. a a good arrangement that provides a. win-win situation. Uh we understand um. how many Americans are pursuing a.

greatness uh in re-industrialization and. in AI and we in Taiwan um want to be. strong as well and it's important that. Taiwan is a strong nation. Um so so I. think that is ultimately a a a goal that. uh works for both of our our societies. on the economic and trade front. Um in. in terms of um the European situation um. you know like you know many countries. around the world uh the Ukrainian.

government has been rather um cautious. about any interactions with Taiwan. But. the Taiwanese people in general have. been sympathetic to the victims of. invasion and war. And that's why we have. provided uh humanitarian aid and support. um from a humanitarian perspective. We've had medical teams and uh other. NOS's um um expressing our our. sympathies and um but at the same time I.

think the conflict there um teaches us. many lessons. You know, first of all, it. is a wake-up call to many people here. that as much as we love and want to. protect peace, um we cannot take peace. for granted and we have to do more to. prevent that type of conflict uh from. happening uh in our part of the world. and on our island. And so we do need to. invest more in our defenses. And we not. only it's not only in terms of spending.

the the the the amounts but um it's. about investing in the right areas. Uh I. think the another lesson from the. Ukraine experience is the asymmetry um. in in in. that theater. And so we do need to. invest in more smart technologies. um uh. drones and unmanned systems are widely. used um in in that theater. Um I I.

watched part of your interview with um. Dina Marukas. Dino Marukas. on. Seronic. Seronic you know unmanned surface. vessels and um you know we need to look. at more robotics unmanned systems on on. on all fronts. uh we also need to be um. uh adopting artificial intelligence and. integrating our sensors and data fusion.

you know so we have a lot of work to do. and this is really a a new era of of uh. self-defense um and I think a third. thing that we have learned from the. Ukrainians is the need for much more. decentralized command control and to. support more small unit autonomy. and decision-m and to be much more. nimble and flexible. Um, our our. military has for decades been trained in. a very traditional way and uh we need to.

quickly um uh uh adapt to to new. requirements and and so a lot of reforms. are are going on. Um our president has. um you know recent you know actually the. the former president started this. process but we are carrying it through. that is um expanding our conscript uh. training period. Uh every young man in. Taiwan has to serve a mandatory one-year.

uh military uh training requirement. And. um we need to make sure that that is not. just you know one year from every young. Taiwanese man's youth but one meaningful. year um quality training uh uh adequate. training and um I think that will also. foster a stronger. um capabilities and the will uh within. our society and confidence in our. society um in in our resilience. Was.

that recently implemented? Yes, that was recently implemented. How was the response from the Taiwanese. people? Well, politically it was not. easy because we started the. implementation like right around our. election time and when you mandate every. citizen uh extra duties um that that is. never an easy political decision but it. is something that we knew we had to do. uh given the geopolitical uncertainties. and threats. um in order to ensure that.

uh peace can prevail uh that we can. sustain peace through strengthening. ourselves. So we knew it was a difficult. but a necessary decision and um I think. it's upon us to ensure that that. extended uh training uh is meaningful uh. that they do get the quality training. and so part of our partnership uh with. the United States as we acquire more. modern systems uh how to use those.

systems and how to um um operate in a. rapidly changing environment. Continuing. these discussions uh is also very. important. Let's move to Taiwan China relations. A. week ago we saw 70 ships 70 Chinese. ships move into the straight and I. believe it was yesterday two carriers. went went farther out into the Pacific. And so what is the sentiment of the the.

Taiwanese people when when these kind of. things happen? Um, unfortunately that has become a. daily reality, something that is, you. know, part of our our our lives. That's. something that we've been forced to live. with, although completely undesirable. But, um, I think over the years, um, you. know, this is it's something that is now. not new to the Taiwanese people. In.

fact, when we were having our first ever. presidential election in 1996, you know, after 37 years of martial law. and one party dictatorship, we finally. for the first time could vote and elect. our own leader. And the Chinese. responded to that with missile firing. missiles and military drills. And so. they've been doing this repeatedly over. the years and unfortunately intensified.

recently. So you know that is another reason why. again we cannot take the status quo for. granted that we have to invest more in. our defense. Uh we have to uh do more to. make our society resilient. And um part of that military presence. and not only the naval presence but the. air incursions uh into the surrounding. air defense identification zone has also. become a significant problem and we see.

that as part of what we call the gray. zone threats that is between peace and. war. You know, there is a gray zone. where they are using many different. types of hybrid tools to threaten and. coers our society into submission. And. you know the military. measures are part of that. But there are. also many other steps they are taking uh. such as cognitive warfare through.

disinformation. uh political intervention. um in our society. Um they are also you. know using economic trade tools as. another leverage uh for coercing members. of our business community and other. foreign countries threatening them from. having ties or relations with Taiwan uh. by using that economic leverage. And so. they are doing a lot and in response um.

you know we've talked a lot about. Taiwan's own military uh investments and. our preparedness but um I also want to. raise another very important initiative. of our president and that is um a whole. of society defense and resilience uh. project that is we see our our country's. security as not only in military terms. but in societal resilience terms that is. we need communications resilience. because our undersea cables have been.

damaged and cut by Chinese vessels. recently and to ensure that we can. continue to communicate with the rest of. the world our data our comms so. communications resilience cyber security. you know we our our society is one of. the most attacked um societies in the. world in terms of cyerspace um defending. ing our critical infrastructure, our. power, our energy, our our.

transportation lines, um the um the the. security of our financial system. Um and. also, you know, thinking about. stockpiling as an island. um you know we. need to think about stockpiling critical. you know food security items, medical. supplies and of course energy resilience. is a continuing challenge for us that we. are working on. So we have many lines of. efforts uh going on uh at the same time.

uh to to further magnify our strength, our resilience uh in coping with um all. of these daily challenges including the. presence of Chinese uh naval assets. around Taiwan. But let me also you know. um again raise that it's not only around. Taiwan. They are all over the South. China Sea. They're to the north around. Japan. Uh there have also been air.

incursions uh into Japanese airspace. There have been, you know, maritime. incursions and um this is a um a. challenge that many of us face how to. ensure the freedom of navigation. um because that is foundational to. global trade. uh it's foundational to. keeping global prosperity and supply. chains uh flowing. I'd like to if it's okay with you I'd. like to dive into each one of those. sectors and let's start with uh you had.

mentioned innovating defense tech and. you had brought up seronic you know in. in in my opinion warfare is changing at. an extremely rapid pace with with with. technological advancements and we have. companies like Palunteer Andural Seronic. there's there's a lot of of new. generation defense tech companies that. are that are extreme extremely. innovative. And I'm just curious, have. you spoken to any of those companies,

uh, those US-based defense tech. companies that are that are true. innovators? Yes. Well, a few years ago when I was, um, posted to represent Taiwan in. Washington DC, I had some opportunities. to engage with the um, US defense tech. community. And in fact, I've been in. involved in conversations. on bridging the hill and the valley that. is Silicon Valley and Capitol Hill. But. I think broadly speaking, the defense.

community and new tech and I think a lot. of the um discrepancies or gaps um that. Americans are trying to bridge um are. also challenges for us. That is. historically our defense establishment. has their way of doing things and uh. their way of the the pace at which. acquisitions are made or decisions are. made and and um but that pace doesn't. meet um the urgent requirements of.

fortifying our defenses. Um, for. example, we have made requests for some. um, foreign military sales from the. United States, which your government has. also approved, but it is taking forever. to deliver um, those uh, articles of of. defense and you know, supply chain. issues, production issues, regulatory. issues, you know, all of these are. challenges that that need to be. overcome. And in the meantime, there are.

some new innovations. Some of them are. commercially based, some of them are. dual use. Some of them could expedite. this process. Some of them can, you. know, dive into the manufacturing. process to make significant reforms um. to to modularize uh some of our our our. acquisitions. And uh so I think we we we. take this seriously and uh we are also. looking at ways to not only partner with. American tech but also build and fortify.

indigenous capabilities here. Um you. know we. again learning from theaters elsewhere. You know having an indigenous capability. to to innovate and build what is needed. in our society is also very important. But we also need to to bridge that gap. between, you know, traditional. defense apparatus as well as all of the. capabilities and innovations of our own. private sector.

I would like to talk about the. artificial islands that China continues. to to construct off its shores. And. could you talk a little bit about those. islands? It seems like they're trying to. to push the borders out farther and. farther. Yes. Well, um. you know, over a decade ago, China. claimed that um you know, they were only. um providing bases for resupplying.

fishing boats and for completely. humanitarian purposes. Um but we see. that uh now they are not only building. artificial islands but they are also. militarizing them and that is generating. uh tremendous anxiety I think in our own. neighborhood among other Southeast Asian. uh countries and there I I think that. that. certainly demonstrates my point that.

their um expansionist intentions. um are not limited to Taiwan. Uh they uh. have broader global ambitions in. changing the rules-based order or the. rules as we know it. And some of those. rules involve the freedom of navigation. And freedom of navigation again is. foundational to global trade, especially. maritime trade. And and so this is quite.

an alarming evolution. And. you know I uh. if if you know China gets its way um in. terms of you know setting the rules for. international behavior. um advancing their system of governance. to to other parts of this world. You.

know, obviously we have a very different. idea of how the world should be run. We. have a very different idea of how. individual freedoms um as well as the. role of the state and and. this is an ongoing balance uh that we. have to ensure. um to protect our our freedoms. What what kind of militaristic. capabilities have you seen on those. islands?

Well, they are, you know, projecting. their naval capabilities. Certainly. beyond um the immediate coastal area of. of China. Um and and it's not only on. the on on on those artificial islands. they are building but they are. projecting their military capabilities. even to the Middle East, the Red Sea, Djibouti. They're building bases uh else. elsewhere around the world. And I think. those also have some strategic uh.

consequences. um you know the the projection of of. their power I think in the South China. Sea specifically um has to do with um. their establishing. um a uh or or denying access uh to. others uh in whether they are Taiwan. contingencies or other security. contingencies uh in this region and um. those those deployments such posturing.

goes way beyond the immediate vicinity. of Taiwan. Yeah. I mean, we see we see them buying. farmland in the US, settling all kinds. of different areas in Africa with the. Belton Road initiative and and and. buying land next to our military bases. And it's it's taken a long time for the. US to wake up to that. But um uh let's.

talk about cognitive warfare and. disinformation. It's it's we spent some. time at the the the the at uh a. nonprofit organization that that combats. disinformation and cognitive warfare. And so I wanted to ask you what are what. how are they doing that? Well, you know, spreading disinformation. is not unique to Taiwan. It's, you know, a global issue, but um the Chinese.

Communist Party is extremely aggressive. at doing that. Uh providing narratives. and different stories and um kind of. amplifying their government propaganda. and um trying to internalize that in our. society. and some main themes of their current. wave of disinformation. um are aimed at. discrediting the institution of Taiwan's.

democratic government. Um they are. trying to sew divisions in our society. um to sew doubts in our society um about. the strength of our own democracy. So the themes involve I think three main. points. You know they are targeting our. partnership with the United States. Um. all of the Chinese propaganda that we. are seeing right now is saying the US is. not reliable. Uh the United States can't.

be trusted. um that this is a very weak. partnership that um you know uh America. is arming Taiwan uh not for the purpose. of defending Taiwan but to make Taiwan. cannon fodder for the global competition. with China. I mean that is the theme of. Chinese propaganda on the US side. The. second part involves um doubting our own. military and our capabilities and really. you know putting us down and promoting.

uh Chinese uh technologies and their. military capabilities. The third theme. around their propaganda involves. attacking this government. um they have. refused to dialogue um diplomatically um. but uh dialogue in a civil way uh with. the democratically elected government uh. of Taiwan and instead uh chosen to uh. sow disinformation uh really uh.

attempting to not only discredit but to. attack the legitimacy of this. government. And so around those three. themes um you know they have multiple. tools and spreading and to to to to try. to get their message around um in our. society and to counter that of course we. have many civic organizations. Uh the. government isn't always the most trusted. institution but fortunately we have a. very robust civil society and concerned. citizens uh who are also shouldering.

responsibilities in countering uh such. disinformation. um through media literacy. There are a. lot of media literacy campaigns. Um and. as far as our government is concerned, you know, we also have a rapid response. requirement that is whenever there is. disinformation. uh related to the government or our. services. You know, it's a we have to. demand a very quick response uh to you. know, some of that involves even, you.

know, supply chains in our country, the. prices of availability of eggs or. vaccines or other issues. And, you know, we we we just need to set the record. straight. And so having mechanisms in. which we can quickly respond uh to such. uh disinformation, but also educating. and empowering our citizens uh to to be. much more um. uh critical of the propaganda they see.

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revolutionary cookware. What what mechanisms are most most. effective for for utilizing their. propaganda and their disinformation. for utilizing it or for countering. for for them to utilize it? Is it social. media? Well, they are taking advantage of our. very open and free uh media environment. You know, Taiwan is a free society. We. cherish the freedom of speech uh the.

freedom of the media and China is taking. advantage of that. So they are widely. using um social media platforms uh to. amplify their messages. Um they are also. actively targeting um civic groups. um. they selectively, you know, invite. groups uh fees paid to China um to try. to get them on their side uh to to to. support the amplification of their.

narratives uh in our civil society. Um. they are also working with influencers. in Taiwan. um the the marketers in Taiwan uh to to. amplify their their views and um you. know they have many tools in their. toolbox and it's it's not easy to be as. pervasive and sophisticated in. countering that or as systematic as they. are. Uh but we have no no choice but to. continue to find ways to fortify public. confidence in our democracy. Uh public.

confidence in in defending um our values. and what's important for us. Yeah. I I received a tip that that they. were recruiting YouTubers with 300,000. at least 300,000 subscribers to come. over and spread their propaganda. Yes. And so exactly um how are you how. exactly are you combating that. especially since Mark Zuckerberg at. Facebook is is doing away with the fact.

check program. How is Taiwan combating. the disinformation more specifically? Well, um, you know, there was a time, especially during elections, the. disinformation campaigns are. particularly rampant and, um, there was. a time when we, you know, sought. partnerships with these major. international social media platforms, um, to to support fact-checking. programs. uh but also to make. transparent some of the advertising and.

especially if it involves uh advertising. or amplifying political or campaign. related uh messages. Uh we have required. a degree of transparency like who's. paying for these ads and that the. citizens should have a right to know. that. Um and and um some organizations. are more cooperative than others in. terms of setting up these uh mechanisms. Um, but it is, you know, it's a constant. struggle to catch up uh with all of the.

new tools uh that they are using uh to. weaken to to weaken our our unity, our. cohesion and public confidence. Do you feel that the Taiwanese people. are becoming smart to the propaganda and. are able to pick it out? Um it's a I I think it's an evolving. learning process, but I I can say from. my own experience that you know I I used. to be a member of Congress here and kind. of more in the grassroots and you know. we did so much you know media literacy.

educational work and reminders that you. know there's a lot of disinformation out. there that you know for you know you. know eventually my supporters and. constituents would start sending me news. articles and say is this real or is this. fake and and so I think minimally you. know you have this awareness that you. know fake news is potentially out there. and we need to verify or double check. you know whether I'm I should be their. source of checking or others and that's.

why we have many NOS's that that support. you know more politically independent. factchecking. um um apps and um kind of uh uh. information verification uh avenues news. for our for our citizens. And um I I do. think that our society is aware that. disinformation is a big problem. And so. there is that understanding that we. always need to think twice. We need to. check on the sources. We need to check.

on the information and and and that is. already a big step. Um and and but. again there are always new tricks and. these new tricks always require uh. further um responses and and part of. that is also on our side understanding. the source of disinformation and calling. them out. You know when we can can. clearly identify patterns of where this. disinformation is coming from. And you.

know, there are what we call content. farms in China that develop they grow. content and build content um to be. disseminated in Taiwan. And when we. trace, you know, different patterns and. content back to China and call them out. um for that, it also helps to educate. and raise awareness within our society. You know, she has said that he will invade Taiwan. by 2027.

How serious do you think he is? Yeah. When when we look at these. timelines, it involves intentions and it. also involves capabilities. And I think ultimately for Taiwan um we. everything we are doing is to prevent a. conflict from happening whether it is. 2027 or before that or beyond that and.

uh so we need to work on both intentions. as well as capabilities. On the. capability side, again, investing in our. own defense in an asymmetric way, in a. way that provides a deterrent or. complicates uh their calculations. um in. um having the confidence that this can. be done uh in a way that um does not. impose serious costs uh on the Chinese. Communist Party. Um I think that is the.

direction we are trying to to to move on. in terms of um balancing those. capabilities. Um on the intention side. um it's it's no secret that uh the PRC. has laid claim to Taiwan and that they. are enforcing that through their. diplomatic, military and economic tools. on a global level. Um but what we need to do is to.

influence those calculations uh not only. in complicating um decisions but also. you know. promoting the idea that keeping the. status quo is in the best interests of. all stakeholders around the world. including China. You know we seek to. maintain the status quo. You know, we. have our differences with the Communist.

Party of China, especially in how. government should run and the. relationship of government to the. people, but um the status quo has served. um as a stable framework for each side. to pursue our own courses of development. and prosperity. And we will not provoke. or seek to disrupt the status quo, but. neither will we submit to coercion. And we need to be clear about that.

That, you know, their intention to coers us, to threaten us, to push us into submitting to their. political system will not work. And at the same time, of course, we need. to do our own work in fortifying our. public will to defend our public will to.

protect our cherished way of life and. our freedom. You know, within Taiwan, um, freedom. didn't just fall from the sky. People. sacrificed and fought for our freedom. You know, we have a history of. colonialism, foreign occupation, and. we have finally established the right of. the Taiwanese people to determine our. own future through democratic means, through elections,

um, through the power of the vote. And. we will not give that up. China has roughly 250 times the ship. building capacity of the United States. They have 50% of the ship building. capacity in the entire world and the. United States has.1%. How does the growing Chinese Navy stand. up against the US and its allies navy?

Well, I I think those numbers that you. just um outlined um have been quite. alarming and that is why. um we we have seen the United States and. many others working to overcome some of. the manufacturing and building obstacles. and also. um working among allies and partners uh. to ensure that a balance balance a.

strategic balance can be maintained um. to. to keep the status quo that is so. important for for many of us but um at. the same time you know from Taiwan's. perspective. um we know we can't match them ship by. ship or asset by asset and that is why. we have developed. um or we have focused on asymmetric.

capabilities. and that is we need to be smart, innovative. Um and we also need to. look at our own indigenous manufacturing. capabilities in developing. uh systems uh that can be. um more effective uh in protecting uh. what we so cherish. I mean it it.

250 ships to one per the US. How do the capabilities or do you have. any idea of how those capabilities stand. up against a US fleet? Are they as. technologically advanced or are a lot of. these container ships with a couple of. weapons on them? Well, China's um investments in the. military have been. growing significantly.

and although they, you know, their propaganda, you know, targets our government as the reason. they're doing this, but they started. this endeavor long before we came into. government. And um as they continue to. expand their military investments, their. technology uh is also advancing in many. ways. Um not only in the ship building. industry, but we see that they are. making significant advances in the area.

of robotics and unmanned systems uh that. we see in the next generation of. warfare. And I think we do need to take. those advances seriously. But at the same time um these. technologies have not necessarily been. fully tested uh in real conflict. Um and we certainly hope that Taiwan. will not be their testing ground and. that is why we are doing everything we.

can to prevent a conflict. Um but we see. some indications that they are not only. conducting drills, exercises, rehearsals. around Taiwan and in far um into the. Indo-Pacific. uh but uh they are also. exporting their capabilities uh to other. theaters around the world. um in the in. the European theater in the Middle East.

uh we see a lot of Chinese parts and. components and technologies being used. and applied and tested and I think that. is also a very alarming trend and I. think that is also why we are working to. build non- red supply chains or supply. chains among the. peaceloving or freedom loving societies. around the world so that number one.

we're not dependent on Chinese parts and. components in everything we are trying. to build but uh number two um we will. not be vulnerable to their coercion uh. when such supply chains are disrupted. but also thirdly um you know we we we. need to be aware that they are testing. their military technologies uh dual use. technologies uh globally and that does. that does pose a significant challenge. to us.

Is there any specific technological. advances in their military that you've. that you've witnessed that you find most. alarming? Well, it's across the board. Um I see. that in your show you've interviewed. experts in many areas including space, land and and maritime. um capabilities that the Chinese have. been um where they have been gaining. serious advances and um um it's all the.

more reason why as you know those who. cherish. um peace stability and freedom uh need. to also put our heads together um to to. develop smart asymmetric and effective. responses. Mhm. It I learned yesterday that um it. seems that the vast majority of. Taiwanese people are on board and taking.

this extremely seriously. I learned that. 65%. of Taiwanese would would resist. an invasion, which is up from 50% just a. couple of years ago, I believe. And and. and. uh we went to the Kuma Academy yesterday. to talk about, you know, some of the. things that that that regular everyday. citizens of Taiwan are doing to to. prepare. Can you elaborate on some of. that? Well, I think that's part of what we see.

as the broader whole of society or civil. society resilience. And um you know, many polls, domestic. public opinion polls over the years have. um demonstrated that the people of. Taiwan are are quite adamant about. protecting our our freedom, uh. protecting our land, and protecting our. way of life and our democracy. Um and and but that needs to go beyond.

just a will or an ide ideology. It has. to be backed up by capabilities and good. training. And so you know as a. government it is also our responsibility. uh to support our society and having. adequate tools uh to defend ourselves. We learned about evacuation. Yes. uh we learned and so what what are. some of the what are some of the more.

specifics that they are preparing for? Yes. Well, um yeah, you you had a you. you had an experience of a minor. earthquake yesterday and um in Taiwan, we're quite used to earthquakes and. unfortunately uh other natural disasters. that sometimes cost lives and really uh. have significant impact and damage on. our society. And so our society is, you. know, building resilience to deal with. such impacts and damages to our.

societies. And so um you know first aid. training um other. uh emergency response training um again. the stockpiling and resilience. uh sheltering you know all of these are. important aspects of our preparedness. but what we are not so used to is you. know historically every disaster we've. had is the military supports civil. society. Um what we haven't really.

experienced is going the other way. around and our civil society supporting. our defense, our military and um. uh the the president's initiative on the. whole of society, defense and resilience. is primarily. um aimed at how citizens can number one. protect themselves and by protecting. themselves and defending themselves um. um It relieves some of the traditional.

burdens of of government uh but when. able uh also supportive of the. continuity of government and protecting. our our our freedom. And so so many of. these organizations at you including the. Kuma Academy and Ford Alliance and some. other organizations really have that in. mind and that is the more prepared we. are um the more. we capable we will be in reducing the.

harm and damage posed by unforeseen. circumstances. When it comes to. actually I'd like to you had mentioned. energy earlier that you guys were. investing in your energy and your power. grid. How are you doing that? It's it's a continuing challenge you. know being an island um and depending. heavily on energy imports uh from. elsewhere including from the United. States. Um but um you know we we will.

continue to diversify our energy. sources. Um we are also investing in. making our energy delivery grid much. more resilient. Um you know in the past. the most or or the the the most. efficient way or the lowcost way to. manage energy was have a big national. grid but that is vulnerable to. disruptions. um and having a wider impact. you know, when I was serving in the United States. as Taiwan's representative that we had.

an incident of a Colonial Pipeline uh. cyber attack uh which impacted the. delivery of um oil and gas to. many states and in eastern USA. And um I think from our perspective is. to build resilience so that these these. damages or impacts uh can be minimized. and our energy grid um is also being.

reformed in that context. I learned yesterday that that you guys. are putting windmills. out into the ocean. And not only are that is that serving. for for energy, but it's also could be. utilized as a blockade and or a. defensive military position. Is that. true? Mhm. Well, a lot of, you know, new.

technology or new um structures around. Taiwan have dual use purposes. Um but as. far as the windmills go, it's part of. our efforts in diversifying our energy. portfolio and um rather being 100%. dependent on imported energies that we. have at least some uh indigenous um. localized energy producing uh. capabilities. Um, and in in in terms of the the.

military aspect is, you know, historically there have been known what. we call red landing zones around Taiwan. where um. where. amphibious landing would be relatively. easier uh in a military context. I think. every country around the world looks at. their landing zones when they have. significant uh threats and seek to. fortify defenses uh within that context. And um I I think the new structures and.

changing. um uh landscape around our coastal areas. have also had an impact on assessment of. uh landing zones and different ways of. defending ourselves and our military. from their professional perspective. will continue to work with um other. friends around the world in looking at. these and and seeing how we can more. effectively deter and defend.

I'm sure you guys have war gamed this. out several times. What what what does. an invasion from China look like? Is it. is it a kinetic war or is it more of a. cognitive war or is it. them influencing the the KMT political. party? Um. yeah, I can't emphasize enough that you. know we want to avoid a kinetic.

conflict. Um, no, there are no winners in war. But the other gray zone. uh coercion against Taiwan is already. happening. You know, there are military. assets circling Taiwan. uh the the. cognitive warfare, the disinformation, the efforts at dividing our society, weakening our uh domestic unity and.

cohesion that is already happening. The. cyber attacks are already happening. And so we also need hybrid responses. Um, and I do not want to. um really think about what a kinetic. conflict will look like because it will. be hell and a disaster for humanity. Um. and I think it will also be harmful to. the people of China. and we.

um are continuing to invest in our. defenses uh so that um deterrence will. actually work and that we can avoid such. a conflict. But in the meantime, uh, all. of the other grayzone areas of coercion, threats, cyber attacks, that's ongoing. and we are in a race to make ourselves. much more resilient. Now, I've used the. word resilience many times today. Yes. And and I do think that is a core spirit.

of who we are as Taiwanese people. You. know, I I grew up in a um Presbyterian. family in Taiwan, and the emblem is a. burning bush. The burning bush uh is symbolic of. resilience. Uh it is also a defiance. against oppression. Um it's about you know keeping. keeping the spirit going and about.

uh resurrection against persecution. and I think that particular spirit is. not only part of my upbringing but it is. very much internalized among our society. and again we've come a long way in. making Taiwan also a land of the free. and No person or no country is too small. to deserve freedom.

So we are determined to protect that. What other countries are showing. interest in this? You mentioned Japan. Mhm. Well, I think all the countries that. have a stake. in ensuring stability. and in ensuring that the global supply. chains that foster prosperity are not.

disrupted. Um, all those countries who. have a shared commitment to freedom in. the belief in what I just said that no. country is too small to deserve freedom. I think should show an interest in this. And so in our immediate neighborhood, of. course, they are also impacted. Uh not. only because of Taiwan, but because the. PRC military presence is expanding. across the Indo-Pacific region. Um so.

they tend to show an an an interest in. this. But beyond that, um we we hope. that the world will also stand with us. in. in ensuring that peace will prevail, that conflict will never happen. Well, you guys are certainly a a a. beacon of beacon of light for democracy. in in this part of the world. And I know. that uh we're on a crunch timeline. I. just have a couple more questions. I I.

want to ask you, what does the world. look like. if Taiwan were to be invaded? Well, I hope that hypothetical scenario. never happens. Me too. Um, but I think as I said at the outset, um, you know, Taiwan is critical in. all of the modern technologies that. surround the daily lives of people. around the world. Um, and Taiwan is also.

on the front lines of protecting. uh freedom and our values, our belief in. a system of government that empowers the. people. and uh all of that would be at stake. And again, you know, everything we are. doing is to prevent that particular. scenario from happening.

What gives you so much confidence in the. United States? You saw we spent 20 years. in Afghanistan. You saw how we left. Caveat to that Pete Hegath just said in. Singapore that we will stand with. Taiwan. I'm just curious on your. thoughts of why you trust us. Well, I think ultimately um we have to. trust ourselves. and that is why we are focused on. enhancing our own defense capabilities.

and localizing uh making indigenous. um the the the range of things that we. have to do to protect ourselves. And. then secondly, we work on our. partnerships. Um, and our partnership. with the United States uh is based on. the legal framework of the Taiwan. Relations Act that has withtood. uh different administrations across the. political spectrum uh over decades.

and we have continued to try to build. bipartisan support uh for this. partnership and I think that is one of. the areas of rare agreement um within. the United States that is uh the. importance of sustaining a strong. partnership with Taiwan and through that. uh we continue to acquire and build our. own defensive capabilities that add to. our indigenous efforts.

um and you know ultimately um dealing. with the people's republic of China and. the communist party's uh aggressive. expansionist intentions. um. you Taiwan is on the front lines. Uh but. we will not be the only ones affected. wrapping up the interview, I I just I. want to say that, you know, with all things considering.

in the situation right now, I think that. Taiwan is in a a very unique position. because. if the rest of the world does not stand. with you and China were to invade, they. will become the most technologically. advanced country in in the entire world. and they have a lot of adversaries. And. so I think that even if they don't say. it,

I think that the entire world uh will be. here to aid you in the event that that. happens. And with that being said, I just like I. said, it was it was an honor to. interview you. I really appreciate your. time and um I just wish you the best and. uh I hope I can return soon. Thank you. Well, um, standing with. Taiwan is critical to preventing that. disaster from happening. Yes, ma'am. Yes. Thank you for standing with us. Thank. you.

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