Henry Dick Thompson - MACV-SOG Operator, Codename "Dynamite" | SRS #227

[Music]. Dynamite Dick Thompson, welcome to the. show. >> Thank you. Honored to be here and I. really appreciate the opportunity to uh. sit in this chair. and in this room particularly as you're. getting ready to transition to the new. one. So honored to be here, honored to. be a SAG guy on your show. So.

>> honored to sit across from you and I I. truly mean that. Um came highly. recommended from uh our mutual friend. John Striker Meyer. >> and uh he's told us a lot about you and. and uh you know I just this is the last. interview in the studio and uh I wanted. the perfect guest to to shut the lights. off with and it is a real honor to be. sitting here with you. So, thank you for. making the time to be here and um and.

and uh I'm really honored to document. your story and your history and it's. going to be good. It's going to be a. powerful interview. You ready? >> Really looking forward to it. >> Me, too. Me, too. So, every guest starts. out with an introduction here. Dynamite. Dick Thompson. Last interview in the. studio. 21-year retired Army Lieutenant. Colonel Green Beret Ranger and MACV SOG. operator who ran over 20 crossber recon.

direct impact missions into Laos, Cambodia, and North Vietnam. Awards. include four bronze star medals, two. with V for valor, two air medals for. aerial combat, one with V for valor, Vietnamese cross of gallantry with gold. star for valor. Naturalborn tracker. raised on your grandparents farm. You. could smell the NVA in the jungle. Distinguished member of the Airborne. Ranger Training Brigade. Served as a. professor of military science at the.

University of Georgia. author of SOG. codenamed Dynamite, a twobook series. about top secret missions that were once. classified for 20 years, a PhD in. psychology, founder of high-erforming. systems, and author of the stress. effect, teaching leaders how to make. decisions under pressure. Among your. hobbies, you are a master scuba diver. You've made over 1,200 freefall halo. parachute jumps, earned a black belt in. karate, and you're an Iron Man. You're a.

husband, a father, a grandfather, and. most importantly, a Christian. >> Thank you. I'm sure I'm missing some, >> but. >> but um yeah, like I said, it is an honor. to be here with you. And so I just want. to do a life story with you, document. everything you've been through, and um. and hopefully bring a lot of hope to. veterans that are coming home from war.

and and that are that are trying to find. their new way in life. So once again, it's an honor. >> Thank you. And um one of the things that. we started doing in our company back in. the '9s was. we traveled all the time. You're always. going through an airport. So, um, I. implemented a a policy that said if you. see someone in uniform or you can tell.

they're a veteran standing in the. Starbucks line, pay for their coffee, thank them for their service. And then, so everybody had a special credit card. from a company card, you know, to pay. for that with. Um and then a little bit. later we bumped it up some more. And. what we started doing is also giving. them um. challenge corn. >> Oh man. So.

thank you. That basically says thank you. for your service. Um. we care about you. Welcome home. And you know, we'll give that out. We've. been doing that now for a long time. It's not the big fancy one like you know. the coin Jo John gave you, but it's one. that um we could share with a lot of. veterans who had never never been.

welcomed home. So, you know, I'm a. little biased along that line because uh. you know, when I came home, people. literally spit at me. Yeah. >> Coming through the airport. >> And. you know, I I also talked later on that. my my biggest challenge in the beginning. coming home from Vietnam was restraint. coming through the airport and listening.

to somebody yell uh baby killer, murderer or whatever, but noticing that, you know, they were. not close like you and I are now. They. were back at a at what they considered a. safe distance. And I used to think they. have no clue. I can close the distance between us and. less than a second because I'm not. carrying 90 pounds of gear, you know,

and I could be real ugly to you when I. got there. So, I have to restrain myself know that. I could do that, but I don't have to do. that. and just a lot of things just. based on coming from the wild west back. to a country that has some laws and is. civilized. You know, I've got to come. back to this world. And one of the. things that I I try to work with. veterans on is understanding the skill.

set you have. and how to use it. Because most veterans. think, well, you taught me all this war. stuff and tactics and I don't, you know, I can't use that stuff back in the. civilian war. Yes, you can. You know how. to plan, make decisions, organize. I. mean, you have a whole skill set that. can help you be successful. and you got. to apply some of the SOG techniques that.

we'll probably talk about in a little. bit um to keep moving forward and and. you can be successful. So anyway, >> I love that. I love that. Thank you. Thank you. Everybody starts off with a. gift. >> Thank you. >> Vigilance League gummy bears made here. Made right here in the USA. It's just. candy. There's no marijuana in it. No. CBD. Just candy. So, they're legal in.

all 50 states. >> John Meyer said there might be something. in here. >> He said he he noticed some kind of of. charge after he ate something. Yeah. >> So, I I'll put it right there and and if. I start to run down after a while, I'll. consume a couple of Well, thank you. I. really appreciate that. >> Hey, my pleasure. My pleasure. And then. one more thing before we get going. So I. I have a Patreon account and uh that's a.

subscription account and we've turned. that into quite a community. I think. we're at 85,000 patrons now. And um and. they're the reason that I get to be here. and that I have this amazing team uh. that I'm surrounded by. And and so one. of the things that we do is uh we offer. the Patreon community the opportunity to. ask each and every guest a question. So. this is a question from somebody you. might know. John Striker Meyer.

Please explain how you carried seven. claymores, bu 15 rounds, hand grenades, and M79 rounds. I believe you carried it. on most missions. Oh, and I forgot your. pistol. How did you carry all that? >> After the first mission that I went on. where I carried the normal load out, uh.

I used up so much ammunition in the. ambush that we uh went into this this is. not going to work. So once I became the. team leader, then instead of carrying. five frag grenades per person, per team. member, I upped it to 10. So what that did was, and I usually went. out with six or seven people. So if I. had seven men on the team carrying 10.

frag grenades a piece, that's 70. With. 70 frag grenades, you can do some. serious damage. So, I also up the claymore to three per. person. So, some people, you know, like the M. M79 man usually didn't carry a claymore. because he was carrying so many um. grenades with him. So, but everybody.

went to three sevenman team, 21. claymores. >> Wow. And then I also started at night on. the most likely avenue of approach. coming into our remain overnight. position. I would put out seven claymores. daisy chained. One click, seven claymores go off. 10 12. lbs of C4.

4,900. steel balls traveling at 4,000 ft a. second. The blast. the steel balls would just shred. whatever was out here. And if you were. far enough back or happened to be behind. a tree and survived, you would say, "This guy's crazy.". Nobody sets off all of their claymores. at one time.

So now the survivors, we can go down and. get them and they start to come. That's. when they run into three more daisy. chain and that goes off. So you catch. them by surprise with that. >> Wow. >> And then they start running into. claymores on time fuses that are. randomly going off as they're trying to. come and Yeah. So in their dossier that. they put together on me, it was this. guy's a nut.

You don't go charging after his team. because he's going to run into all those. claymores. And. at night, you want those area weapons. like the claymores and those frag. grenades. You could start chunking frag. frag grenades at them. They don't know. where they come from. >> Yeah. >> And they're just going off everywhere, >> man. Um, and then. I like, well, let me say if you shoot at. me, I'm going to shoot back. I I really.

don't like people shooting at me. So, I. will shoot back. So, I found I needed to. carry more ammunition. and most guys were carrying, you know, 800 rounds or so, or maybe 700, some. 600. I went to a,000. And I carried 50 20. round magazines. >> 50 20 round magazines. >> And in my 20 round magazines. I put 20 rounds.

because I used brand new magazines every. mission. I would draw new magazines. So everybody. had new magazines. So they'd only been. loaded for three or four days. So the. springs were fine. They were working. good. Um, so I I never in a firefight had my CAR. 15 jam. Not not from uh the number of. rounds in the magazine,

but you know, so my people had a lot of. them. I didn't force them to put 20 if. if the 18 rule had been ingrained in. them. Uh, but I encouraged them to put. in 20 because when you run against up. against the NBA, you've got you're sitting there with a. 20 round magazine for initial contact. The NVA NBA's got a 30 round magazine. They've already got 10 more rounds than.

you do. You run out first and then the. firepower shifts totally over to them. now. >> Yeah. So until we finally got the 30. round magazines, we were a disadvantage. every time as soon as we started. So you. needed to be able to load faster and, you know, shoot longer. >> Man, I never thought about that. 20. round magazine versus 30 round magazine. >> It's a big difference. >> Yeah. Yeah. How long did it take him to. get you guys 30 round magazines? >> We didn't get I got there in ' 68. We.

didn't get the 30 rounds until um 69. And and when we first got them, it's. they couldn't get many. So I could go. draw one 30 round magazine u per car 15. >> Oh man. >> So we all have one, you know, in our. weapon to start with. That was after they made a tweak. I discovered early on as as did a lot of.

other people that if you have that 30. round magazine and your car 15 and you. you jump off the skid of the helicopter, when you hit the ground, your gun got. lighter all of a sudden because the. magazines laying down in the mud because. the the spring on on the magazine. retainer wasn't strong enough to hold. that extra weight. >> Wow. So the shock of hitting the ground,

the magazine would fall out. So we had. to take the weapons back in, have the. spring changed, excuse me, to a stronger one. So the. magazine was staying there. >> Jeez. >> But at least you had you had a 30 round. magazine to start with. But you know, I. guess I guess my teams just had. problems, discipline problems. Maybe it. seemed that we lost our 30 round. magazines almost every time we were in. contact and I'd have to go back to you.

S4 and draw some more 30 round magazines. to replace the ones we lost. >> Wow. >> And. what you know, but then that um somebody. noticed one day, how are you guys. getting so many 30 round magazines? You're only supposed to have one per. gun. Your guys are all carrying more. Well, I guess they found some of the. ones they lost. So, >> what kind of pistol were you carrying?

>> I tried different ones. Um, I carried a, you know, 1911. 45 caliber pistol. It was heavy. only held seven rounds, but man, if you hit somebody with that, it would put them down. I mean, it hits. hard. Um, but then I I changed to um a. Browning High Power 9 mm cuz now I, you.

know, double the amount of ammunition, number of shots in there. Um, so I I. played with those a little bit and then. I started carrying um. uh a high standard 22 caliber long rifle. with an integrated silencer. because that thing was so quiet. >> Little hush puppy, huh? >> Yes. And you know, you got to be careful. where you shoot them. you know, 22 if it.

hits a vest or something, it's it's not. gonna penetrate. So, I tried to go for. softer spots like the temple. Um, I did. a lot of practice and trying to get a. guy in particularly a tracker. If you. were tracking me, then I would tell. those team, you guys keep going. I'm. going to drop back. Somebody's behind us. I'm going to drop. back here and have a little chat. So I could go back and take out a.

tracker. I could take out a dog. I could. do things without, you know, a big. disturbance. And particularly at night, there were times when we had people walk. inside our little perimeter. I mean, we. were all within arms reach of each other. in a little circle, and sometimes you'd. have somebody walk right through the. middle of it. Uh, you couldn't open up. with a car 15 because it just light the. whole area up. But with that 22,

I could tap you. Particularly if I set. off a claymore, made a little noise, shot you at the same time. Nobody ever. know I took you out. >> Wow. You hit people inside the perimeter. when you guys were at arms length. distance and you're only six to nine. people. >> How many times did that happen? >> Several. and and. we can talk maybe in a little bit about. where I had a. or longer experience of someone inside.

that. Uh pretty cool. >> Let's talk about it. Now, >> we were I had 22man team. I we had put. two uh of our recon teams together. uh cuz we we were going after a group of. NBA that had a group of American. prisoners that they were trying to take. through count through Mal into um North. Vietnam and we're trying to stop them.

and we had stopped for an RO. had 22. people. So, it was a circle. almost as big as this room in here and. they were ready arms lengths apart. I. was in the in the center uh with my. assistant team leader and. it was about 2130. It was dark. You. couldn't see your hand in front of your. face.

And I was really tired and my eyes were. starting to roll back in my head. I was. leaning against a tree. and I heard a twig break. And I opened my eyes and I was thinking. to myself, that sounded like a twig. break inside the perimeter. And then I. heard another one. And I realized. someone was inside our perimeter. and was coming directly toward me.

I'm laying back. I have car 15 laying. across my lap. And I can hear this person moving. And I knew all of our people knew the. rule. Once you go down, you don't get. back up at night. Anybody moving is a. bad guy. And this guy's coming right. toward me. And I was thinking he's going. to step on me. I slid my selector switch over the full.

auto. and I'm laying there and he's coming and. the air is so thick. And at this point I. can mentally see a silhouette coming at. me. Although I can't really see the. silhouette. I know where it is based on. the sound. And now I'm starting to hear. and breathe. I'm starting to hear his. heartbeat because he realizes he's. inside the perimeter.

and he's probably about to get killed. So, his heart is thumping. He's coming. right at me. Uh, I can't open up cuz. that'll light the whole perimeter up and. we'll be in trouble. So, I couldn't get. to my knife. So, I decided just as he gets to me, I'm. just gonna shoot my left hand up. I'm. gonna grab a hold of his chest, whatever. he's got there, and I'm going to pull. him at the same time, raise my leg up.

and trip him, I'm going to pull him down. to the ground. I'm going to hit him in. the side of the head with the muzzle on. my KR15. As I'm bringing him down, if he. yells, if he fires his weapon, I won't. pull the trigger. So, he's coming. He got into position. I grabbed him. I jammed the muzzle into. the side of his head. Just cut a big. gash in his head. I bring him down face.

first into the mud. And he didn't say a word. Didn't make a. sound. It scared him so bad he didn't. even grasp when I uh grabbed him. And then I started thinking, "Now what? I'm sitting here holding this guy face. down in the mud. What am I going to do. with him. and then I heard a whisper. and the whisper was Trungwe? He was.

lieutenant in Vietnamese. Lights, lights, what? And he said, "Lights, lights.". And I looked up the ridge towards the. top of the mountain and you could see. lights, lanterns coming down the mountain. Um. about 400 people, if you counted one or. two people in between each lantern, probably 400 people coming down the.

ridge line toward where we were. And that's not good. We're on a ridge. line like that. We picked it so people. couldn't get around us, but they're. coming straight at us. But then I I turned and I looked down. the ridge. They was that same number coming up the. ridge and they were going to come right. to us. We were going to be right in the. middle when they got up here about, you. know, estimated 800.

>> Whoa. So then I realized the guy that I've got. face down in the mud is the Vietnamese. captain that we took on this mission. with us. He didn't, you know, he didn't have the. experience. He didn't realize it when he. got up to come tell me there were lights. coming that I might shoot him or. somebody might shoot him or knife him. But anyway, you know, he did call that. to our attention.

And so these guys are all coming at us. They're going to intersect right on us. So. my. RTO. crawled over and said, "Sir, you wanted on the radio.". And. I got the radio and this is this was a.

KY um 38 with the KY 28 um manual code. loader in it and all that stuff. You had. to have that daily code set in this um. uh coder. You had to be on the right. frequency. All that this was the highest. security radio that you could manually. carry around. But anyway, so I was talking, you know, answered it and it was Saigon. and they were they said, "You are now a.

prairie fire emergency.". Meaning everything in that part of. Southeast Asia now belongs to you. Everything, every asset that's within. range of you. Every asset that still has. armament left is being diverted to you. to try to get you out. And I'm looking up and down. I can I can see how we are our prayer.

fire emergency. So. I, you know, copied that. I got my. assistant team leader over and said, "Here's what's going on.". And then the RTO says, "Sir, you got to. hear this.". And I said, "WTF Schaefer? What? You know, I've got 800 people coming. What else you going to tell me?" I. picked up the radio, the handset,

and there's a Vietnamese woman on the. radio. classic. There's no way that she can. talk to this radio, but she's talking to. to this tactical radio secure one. And she's reading our orbituary. >> What? >> She's reading our orbituary that we were. all killed in action that night.

She's reading. name by name of everybody who's laying. in that parameter. and she reads. my name. She reads off Dick Thompson. and and keeps going. monitoring and they heard her read my. name off as Dick Thompson and they said, "Okay, she made a mistake. She doesn't.

even know his name. He's Who Who is Dick. Thompson? His name's Henry.". No one at that point on that side of the. world knew me by Dick Thompson except. for Elden Bargewell, later Major General Bargewell. And we'd. been on the same team before. But somehow she knew my name that no one. else knew. And.

as I'm listening to it, there's music in the background. Not just music, but I I realized this is the same music. that as a little kid. at 12:00 every day at my grandmother's. house, she would say things like, "Boris, Boris, quietening down. I I need. to hear the obituaries in the county.". And there's a southern kind of music.

that they played in the south when they. would read obituaries, read about. somebody that had died. And they're. playing this in the background as. they're reading our names off as being. killed in action that day on a super. encrypted radio that they couldn't. possibly be talking on. So. it kind of got our attention, >> I would imagine. So, I got a team leader. together and we put our clan together.

Um, and I mean we were we were armed. We. had four machine M60 machine guns with. us, you know, four grenaders with us. We. had all those claymores. We we were. loaded for bear. Um, but. that kind of kind of got all of our. attention. and. that started at 9:00 at night. almost 1700 the next day when we got out.

and we just banged it out with them. right and left and had one catastrophe. after another. Uh, but but we got out. and we got everybody out with us. He got everybody out. Wow. >> There were a lot of bad guys that were. were left, but. >> holy [ __ ] What was the radio? Did you. ever figure that out?

>> Somehow they'd gotten a hold of one. They'd gotten a hold of one of those. They got the radio. They had to have. gotten the the codes and the. frequencies, you know, from the. compound. We think part of what happened was. eight days before we were at the launch. site um getting ready to uh launch on. this mission and a team was overrun. and you know the uh launch site.

commander came in and said look your. mission's just changed you're now bright. light uh your team's going to go in to. try to uh recover the team that just got. overrun. So, they changed our mission. and we went out there and fought it out. for a couple days. Um, and when we came. back, we had to have some recovery. We. had to replace some people that were. when we did the firefight. So, it was 8. days before we could go back and run our.

uh original mission. So, they had eight. days to get more intel on us and figure. out what was going on. And we had some. spies there at CCN in the camp that we. didn't know about. So, >> man, >> well, I got another gift for you. >> And the the uh. the KY38 radio and the that's 54 pounds. of radio plus all the batteries, the big.

batteries that it goes through. Nobody. wanted to carry those things. You had to. have a PRC77. to hook two this KI and KY38. So you half of it was on your front. chest, half of it was on your back. >> Oh man, >> it was unreal. I'm sorry I interrupted you. Go ahead. >> No, no, no. Well, not much has changed. today. Nobody wants to carry the radio, but it's not 50 lbs. Oh, but hey, since.

we're talking about everything you've. carried, I got you a little present here. So, I got a friend over at Sig Sour. His. name's Jason, and I told him you were. coming on, and he is just fascinated. with MacB guys. So, he wanted me to. present this to you. >> Oh, wow. >> Go ahead. Hold it up.

So, that is the Sig Sauer P365. Macro Legion. and uh hold 17 rounds plus one in the. pipe. It has that red dot. We were. talking about red dots at breakfast. It. has the uh slide cuts in the front to. help you with the muzzle flip and. recoil. It's made out of all metal and. um that is the the latest and greatest. everyday carry handgun from 6 hour. So,

>> wow. >> We wanted you to have that. >> That is awesome. >> Thank you. You're welcome. Wow. Fortunately, I'm driving home so I don't. I don't have to try to carry this on a. plane. >> But, uh, yeah. So, we wanted you to have. that. So when.

when you get your. your new studio completed, including your firing range, hopefully I can get invited back up to. see if the thing works on the on your. range. >> We'll invite you back. You and John. >> Yeah. >> Maybe we'll have a little shooting. competition. >> Oh, yeah. He'd love that. >> I'm sure you'd whip John's ass in. shooting competition. Oh, yeah.

I'll tell I'll tell him you better start. practicing. >> That's great. Thank you. >> You're welcome. Every day it becomes more obvious. The. world is changing fast and the systems. we were taught to rely on can't be. counted on anymore. Whether it's. institutions, governments, or supply. chains, when things go wrong, most. people are caught completely offguard. That's why it's up to you to take. responsibility for yourself, your.

safety, and your family's well-being. Preparation starts with the basics. For. me, that includes long-term emergency. food. That's why I use and trust My. Patriot Supply because when the. unexpected hits, I want to know I've. done everything I can to be ready for. myself and the people I care about. Go. to myatriotsupply.comsrs. and shop a curated collection of my. favorite products. From long-term food. storage to water filtration, medical.

kits, and portable power solutions. With. lightning fast shipping, your supplies. can be at your door in as little as 48. hours. Go to myatriotsupply.com/srs. right now. That's myatriotsupply.comsrs. There are a lot of choices out there for. cell phone service and new ones seem to. pop up all the time, but one company. continues to stand out. Patriot Mobile. The best part, you don't have to.

sacrifice quality or coverage to make. the switch. Patriot Mobile gives you. access to all three major US networks. So, if you have service now, you'll have. just as good, if not better, coverage. with them. Worried that switching is a. hassle? It's not. You can keep your. number, keep your phone, or upgrade, and. their 100% US-based team will walk you. through everything and get you activated. in minutes, all from home. Still in. contractor own money on your current. phone? No problem. Patriot Mobile even.

has a contract buyout program to help. you make the move. They're good people. running a good company, and they. actually care about American values. That's hard to find these days, so check. them out. Visit patriotmobile.com/srs. or call 972 patatriot. Use promo code. SRS for a free month of service when you. make the switch. I'd like to get into your story story. here. So, we always start with where did. you grow up?

Grew up in uh a little town called Wall. Hollow, South Carolina up in the north. uh western tip of South Carolina. right. up above uh Clemson University. and. um. spent a lot of time outside. and you know I uh my. my mother's family had four sons.

and when World War II came along all. four of them were deployed you know in. in World War II view uh my father was. deployed along with him. So there were. five men you know from the family uh. there. and they three of the brothers four. brothers came back. um. my father came back and then when Korea.

came along you know my father was called. back in so served in Korea. and they talked about some army stuff. mostly at my proddding and saying, "What does this mean? What is a platoon? What do you mean have a reserve? What's. a reserve? What. excuse me, all kinds of questions, you. know, I was just full of questions about. army stuff. And then when I was about 7 years old, I.

decided. I'm going to have an army.". So, I got with my cousin Carl and I. said, "You're the first member of of uh. my army and I had heard about Rangers. I'd heard them talk about what the. Rangers did." Um, so I decided it was. going to be, you know, Ranger Company. So I formed the 69th.

uh Ranger Company. and it was commanded by General Thompson. of course and so but we needed more than. one other member. I needed to command. more than one person. Uh so I started. recruiting my other cousins that are. about the same age. We got, you know, all the close ones in the ones I liked. Got those guys in. Uh, brought in one um.

female cousin, Pat, which was actually. cousin Carl's sister. We brought her in. So, we had a whack in in the army. Um, then we started letting people outside. the family in. So, it, you know, it grew. bigger. And I've I still got the the log. book uh for Thompson's Rangers at home, the actual log book. Are you serious? >> And you can open it up and you can it's.

getting pretty faded now, but you can. see notes. You can see people's names. You can see the note. You can see. information about uh the only court. marshal that we had. So there was one of. the members of the company that um gave. me some lip and um. he ended up getting court marshaled and. booted out of the Ranger group. But. anyway, I still I still have that book. I mean, you know, I I cut two pieces of.

cardboard for the covers and and taped. it together and put the paper inside and. uh it's it's pretty pretty cool. So, but. I still have it after all these years. So, really got into uh rangers. and. and it, you know, the family did a lot. of hunting. My father liked to hunt. So, I I was brought up with weapons and.

shooting and hunting and tracking. And. every time I my parents both worked uh. as I was getting older. So every. opportunity I got uh I was in the woods. by myself hunting, tracking uh tracking. deer, tracking whatever animals I could. find um and studying them. You know, what do they do? How do they move? Um. and then I got this idea, I need to be. invisible. How can I be invisible?

Excuse me. So to be invisible, what it's. it's not just that you are not visually. seen. If I'm invisible, you can't hear me. You can't smell me. You know, I just don't exist. I'm just. I'm here, but I I'm not here. And how do. you do that? outside, practiced slipping. up on on deer or rabbits or whatever I.

could find out there. Um, and then. my cousin Carl started coming over and. we'd take we had a little army pup tent. We'd carry that thing a couple hundred. meters up on the hill in the woods and. put it up. Um, it would go out and once. I got a BB gun, we'd go out and shoot. some birds and, you know, little birds. and build us a fire and we would roast. them and we would we would say, "What. else do rangers eat?" You know, let's.

let's get us some ranger food. Let's go. kill us something else and let's come. eat it. And, you know, we'd camp out. there and pretend we were rangers and. we'd go on missions and different things. like that. And you know, we we got. older. Um. and and then. when I was 13, um my parents sabotaged me cuz I knew I. was going to be a ranger. And Santa Claus came and brought me a.

chemistry set. You know, I used to watch Shock Theater. uh at midnight on Saturday night. you. know, they build Frankenstein and. werewolfs and change people's brains. out. And I said, "They can do that. Why. can't I do it?" So, I started, you know, catching rats. I'd catch rats and bring. them into my lab. Um, and I'd knock them. out. At that time, if you went into a.

pharmacy, we called them drugstores at. that time. If you went in there, I mean, if if you could get permission from your. parents to buy a syringe, a real. syringe, which was a big deal at that. time because only drug users and medical. people had access to syringes, but uh. talked the pharmacist into to letting me. buy one. So, I had a syringe and then I.

could shoot the rats or the birds or. whatever up, knock them out, and I could. go in, take their brains out and see if. I could swap them and and bring them. back. Swap swap their hearts, things. like that. Uh, and try to, you know, from shock theater with Frankenstein, you know, the electricity from lightning. went in him. I would plug them into the. outlet. Tended to fry their little hearts and. stuff.

I never could get one to start back. I. could put them in there. I just couldn't. get them to work again. Um. >> the psych test must have been a lot. different to get into uh the Green. Berets back then. >> Yeah. So, I I really got into chemistry. And then at some point, I got into well, let's build some rockets. you know, Thompson Rangers need some rockets. so to launch at the bad guys. So, I. studied rockets and rocket fuel and the. chemistry around it. And again, back to.

the pharmacy. I I need some I need some. I need some potassium nitrate. I need. some charcoal. And I need some sulfur. What are you going to do with that? I. said, "Oh, I'm I'm, you know, building. some bottle rockets.". Okay. I had so much of those chemicals. in a foot locker in in the house, if my.

mother had realized what that was and. what it could have done to our house. Um, but anyway, you could build rocket. fuel out of that and then discovered. later you could build bombs out of that, too. Um, so I built a launch pad. I built a lab. in in the in the uh barn and built a an. actual launch pad out behind it. I had a. window so I could look out there and see. it so I didn't get hit with uh shrapnel.

stuff if that exploded on the the launch. pad. And I'd launch them off of there. One day I built a big one. Uh, it was. almost three feet high. Um, exploded on. a launch pad, actually broke windows in my neighbor's. house. So, uh, I decided I needed to go. back down to smaller ones so they didn't. do so much damage as they didn't work. But, you know, so I I played with. explosives. I.

did all kind of chemistry stuff. I mean, um, when I was in in high school, I I. took, you know, the advanced chemistry. course. I didn't even have a book. I just basically showed up for class, took the exams and maxed out the course. cuz I was going down to Clemson. University to the library, reading all. the articles, reading chemistry books. >> Wow. getting and if I found that if you.

got um if you got the older chemistry. books around the turn of the cent around. around 1900 they were like recipe books. they didn't just talk about theory and. how you know if you mix these two. components then then you get this it was. a recipe this is how many grams uh of of. whatever it was that you're going to use. and mix together and this is how you mix. it together they told you how to do all. this stuff. So, I was learning that and.

and um really really into chemistry. I got a scholarship to University of. South Carolina on chemistry. >> You had a pet, too. >> I'm sorry. >> You had a pet? >> Um. I had I had several pets, but I I had. one when I was, you know, really young. Um, that was a particular interest.

I was in third grade and my parents came. got me out of school and and took me. home and said, "We've got a surprise for. you.". What is it? Well, you have to wait till. we get home. So, we got home and got out. and and there was a spider monkey. So, so it's a monkey, you know, he's on. a he's on a little chain, a leash. So he. running around doing things and I. thought that's cool. I snatched that. little joker up. I found out about.

monkey teeth really quickly. I mean he. about bit my finger off. Um so anyway I. didn't I kind of liked him but I I was. careful with him because I knew he would. bite. Um, we ended up building a a small. house that was outside close to the barn. and he would sleep in that at night and. we put a light bulb in there to, you. know, for heat because it winter time. And I went out one morning and.

looked in there and, you know, I could. see his tail sticking out the little. door and I grabbed his tail and I. thought, "Wow, this is strange. He's not. moving. And I pulled him out and he was. literally just straight out. He looked. like a monkey on a stick. And he was. frozen. And. >> a monkey on a stick. Huh. >> He was frozen. And his little mouth was. open. All his little teeth were showing.

You know, when I was not happy, you. know, I mean, I forgave him for all the. biting, but you know, I ran back in the. house in the house and I gave him to my. mother and said, you know, he's dead. He's dead. and she said, "I don't know. if he is or not. Let's try this." She. wrapped him up in a little blanket and. put him on top of a little oil heater. that we had. So, the heat was coming up. to try to warm him up, throw him out a. little bit. And then she heated up some. milk and took an eyropper.

and squirted that warm milk down his. little mouth. And I mean she kept. working with him and after a while now. you know his little mouth started moving. and she thought that Joker out. She. thought him out and all of a sudden he. came back to life. Oh I thought this is really cool if you. can freeze somebody to death and then. just thaw him back out. I mean how cool. is that? But anyway, they had the monkey. and what he caused so much trouble that.

uh we ended up swapping him for a dog. So, he had to go away. >> You didn't take that and uh ask for. volunteers from uh from your army to. freeze, did you? >> No, I'm not saying I didn't think about it. But. >> maybe the guy that got court marshaled. Cook had a uh ultimatum. I I did take college students.

>> Oh [ __ ]. I I have to be careful how much I tell. you about. But I I did take college. students and I was interested in. what happens. if I put you into sleep deprivation. If I don't let you sleep for a while, what will happen? So I got permission to do some research.

University of Georgia using college. students. And. so I got a group of volunteers. from the ROC department. These guys were all in the the ROC, you. know, ranger company there to uh. University of Georgia. you know, of. course they they can do anything and you. know, u so they volunteered to do it.

So they had their full gear on. We took. them out in the national forest full. gear. Um carrying a 40 lb rucks sack and. continuous movement. We stopped for. 10-minute break every once in a while, but continuous movement. Um no sleep. every four hours they had to take a a. test. Um, one of the tests they had to. take was a cognitive test. You know, it's basically addition and subtraction,

just a couple sheets of of addition and. subtraction. Um, and then they would. rate after they finished it. I would. say, "Compared to when we first started, when you were fresh before you'd lost. any sleep, uh, compared to that, how. well you think you did this time?". And they would say, "It's pretty easy. I. did just as well well this time, just as.

accurate uh, as I did on the first one.". I'm looking at the scores and thinking. that didn't happen. One of the things that that I discovered. was that after 24 hours with no sleep. that you lose about 25% of your. cognitive ability, particularly to be. able to do things like math. The scary thing is you don't know it.

you think you're still just as good as. you were when you started out. >> and and you know it doesn't stop at 24. hours. It keeps on going down. >> um and you don't see things. Um things happen in front of you, you. don't see it. Things. things you see sometimes didn't happen. You know, you hallucinate. You do all. kinds of things. And you know, as a.

ranger instructor for a number of years, you know, with the ranger students, we. we didn't feed them much. Uh we didn't. let them sleep. We kept them running up. and down mountains all the time. Um, and. you know, they would hallucinate. You know, you lose them. You're going. through the woods and all of a sudden. you say, "Send up the count." They start. sending the count up and you realize. you're missing about 10 or 12 people. You stop. You go back. You know, it's. night. You go back and here's a guy.

standing behind a tree just standing. there thinking that tree in front of him. is is his buddy. Is he supposed to be. following? His buddy's not moving. So, he's just standing there and nobody. behind him's moving. They're all. waiting. Uh are they And when when I. went through my Ranger buddy and I, you. know, we were already SFqualified and. everything. So, we like we got to have. some fun, you know. So, if you're if. you're walking along, you had your. little patrol cap on. And you had had.

the little ranger eyes in the back, the. little fluorescent tabs in in the back. of the of the hat so the guy behind you. could see you in the dark. You take your. hat off and kind of put it over to the. side. And as you're walking along, you just. you just. you just start, you know, getting. yourself lower and lower and you're.

lowering that hat around and the guy. behind you, he's following you up now. He's fiddling around trying to where. where's the drop off? Where's he going? And you know, we we found that we found. if we did stuff like that, it was. hilarious to us and it kept us. motivated. >> You know, we could do all kinds of. things and uh we had fun in Ranger. School. But anyway, >> humor keeps it going. >> Yeah. It keep it keeps you moving right.

along. Um. >> especially in the darkest hour. >> Yeah. So. anyway, with the sleep research, uh that. was a major study that the military used. because one of the one of the things. when I was put on the airline battle. 2000 team to figure out how are we going. to go 100 hours straight with the ground. war when we move into the 21st century. How can we go 100 hours straight,

leaders be able to lead, soldiers be. able to function, aviators be able to. fly, you know, without 100, you know, 100 hours of that sleep. So I did a lot of research around that. and and then I started going to NATO. nations and briefing the army staffs. Here's here's what we found. here's what. you need to do to be able to function. Um, and I remember very clearly when I.

briefed the uh the the commander of the. UK forces, I gave the presentation and. this is what special ops are going to. have to do. Um, and and then what the. soldiers and aviators had to do. And I. finished that presentation and he the. general got up and he said, "Thompson, that was a good briefing, but I can tell you now we're not doing. any of that crap. These guys are just. going to have to drive on. We're not. doing that.".

Okay, it's a price to pay. And then. shortly after that, Faulland Islands. came along and all of a sudden they ran. into problems because they didn't have. enough pilots down there to meet the uh. safety requirement, the sleep and rest. requirement between missions. Uh they. tried different chemicals to um you. know, help them be able to to do that. because when a pilot comes back from a. mission, you know, his eyes are like.

that. He's wired from all the stress and. everything. He can't go to sleep to. start with. When he finally does go to. sleep, he can't wake up. And if you give. him a chemical that knocks him out right. away, then you can't get it out of his. system, you know, 6 hours later or 4. hours later when you wake him up and. say, "You got to go. You got to fly. another mission." He still trying to. figure out who who he is. Um but there. there are ways to do some of that that.

we worked on uh getting ready because. when the Gulf War you know the ground. war started the ground war went 100. hours. Now, my my brother was an Apache pilot. and you know, he was telling me all the. time about, you know, I go fly a. mission, I turn around, I come back, I'll land. While I'm rearming, refueling, I'm sitting there in the. cockpit eating a sandwich, drinking a. coffee. Uh because soon as they they get. me rearmed, I'm going back out. I got to.

go fly another mission. And um. so, you know, that stuff was going on. all the time. and you're just not as. effective. >> And somewhere. uh somewhere around five hours or five. days without any sleep, zero sleep, uh. people start to die. And the university. said, you know, we can't keep supporting your. research.

if you have your students dying. So, you. got to stop keeping them up that long. They didn't actually die, but you know, they were getting close enough that they. were concerned about it. >> Wow. >> So, I hear people all. >> How long were you keeping these people. up? >> Holy [ __ ]. >> We ended up we ended up uh stopping them. after uh I think it was 72 hours as far. as we we would go. But.

uh I hear people tell me all the time, man, I can I can go five days without a. problem. Young guys, I tell you that. you think you are. I remember in Ranger. school sitting in the bleachers and an. instructor standing in front in front of. us. It was a creek there. He's standing. in front of us and he's talking and it. seems like mids sentence mids sentence. he says. Thompson in the creek.

and I think what did I do you were. asleep and I think no I wasn't asleep in. the creek do push-ups until I get tired. make sure your face goes under every. time you know so I'm in the creek trying. to drown myself you know doing push-ups. and I was and my ranger buddy said, "Yeah, you were sitting here, but you. were asleep. You were setting up. Your. eyes were open, but you were asleep.".

And I I began to realize, yeah, you go. to sleep and you don't realize it. In. fact, some of the research shows that. there are more people killed in traffic. accidents. with with drivers falling asleep than. there is with drunk drivers. >> Interesting. Almost everyone that drives. or been driving for a while can tell. you, you know, you've had an experience.

late at night and and you're sleepy and. your head's bouncing around and all of a. sudden just before you hit the bridge. abutment, you feel a car run off your. shoulder and you jerk it back into the. road cuz you were asleep and you didn't. you didn't know it. And you know, if. you're driving a drone, you're driving. whatever uh and you go to sleep. Mhm. >> The drone's on its own now. There's no. telling where you're going to put that. thing. If you're, you know, watching a.

radar screen, you don't see the aircraft. coming. You don't see the blips. You're looking at it. Your eyes are. open, but you don't see it. There's a whole series of things like. that that uh I did a lot of research on. and particularly using it with special. ops. And still now I I go out I do a lot. of presentations and with different. groups particularly high stress groups, special ops groups on uh sleep.

deprivation things to help you get. around it to be able to function better. longer um and what's going to happen if. you don't. So that's a long answer to. whatever you ask about a monkey or. something like that. We I want to get into that what you're. doing nowadays uh towards the end, but. you you went to school. You dropped out. of school, correct? >> Yeah. I I was in school and.

at that time every night on the 5:00. national news, you know, there'd always. be a segment about what was happening in. Vietnam. And. interestingly enough, very different. from what we have today, you know, the. reporters would be saying, "Man, we're. crushing those guys. I mean, we're we're. just crushing the NBA and we're doing. this and we're doing that." And I. started thinking, "Well, I wanted to go.

to Vietnam, you know, so I could, you. know, do my patriotic duty like my. uncles and father and everybody's done.". um it's going to be over. If I wait. until I finish school, it's going to be. over. So, I decided to. uh take a break from school, go in list for three years, go do my thing, come back, pick back up. where I was in school, and you know,

continue on. No, no intent, no desire to. really uh be a career person. And I. wanted three years and then I wanted to. get back to chemistry and do my thing. And so I stopped. My mother was not. happy. Um my father supported it. My mother. kind of freaked out over it. I told her, "I'll go back to school." She said, "No, you won't." I said, "Yeah, I'll go back. to school. I'll get a doctorate, but I I.

need to go to do this first." Um, and. then, you know, I get to the recruiting. station and and went down to Fort. Jackson, South Carolina, and. you know, we they put us in in the. barracks, went to sleep about 3:00 in. the morning. All the lights come on and there's some. guy yelling and screaming the top of his.

lungs to get up and get the attention in. front of the your bunk. And then I hear. bunks being pushed over, you know, double. bunks pushed over, people falling out on. the floor, and this guy yelling and. hollering. I got my buns up and got to. attention in front of my, you know, bunk. there. And I looked. and I said, "He's my size. He's got a big smoky bear hat on. He's.

my size and he sounds like a giant. coming through here. And what is that on his shoulder? A ranger tab. So I thought that's it. You got to do that. And then he took us. uh took us on a a run and you're singing. all this stuff about I want to be an. airborne ranger. I want to live a life. of danger. All this kind of stuff. And I. thought this is cool. If I'm gonna be in.

three years, I might as well, you know, this is what I want. I get a chance to, you know, be a real ranger now, not not. just, you know, what I used to to play. at. Uh, so all of a sudden, you know, I still didn't have I still. didn't intend to stay in beyond the. three years, but I wanted to be a Ranger. while I was in and, you know, go to. Vietnam as a ranger. You know, why not? So, >> what was the sentiment of Vietnam at the. beginning of the war? Terrible.

>> It was terrible. >> Terrible. >> And you know the the country my country. is divided now you know. >> for in America. >> but uh yeah it in in America it was. divided. So uh they they had you and I. for example um. soon as people looked at our heads they. could say well he doesn't have hair down. to his shoulders. His hair is not a. parted in the middle. Um, he's in in.

this group over here. You and I are in. this other group. And we're much more. likely to be patriotic, support the war, and go do it. These other guys, these long-haired. hippie guys over on the other side, they're against it. They're all smoking. marijuana. They're doing whatever. I'm. kind of exaggerating, but it was. divided. those people anti-war, going to. protest, do all this kind of stuff. Um,

so. there were some people who were for it, most people were against it and they. were out protesting. So, um, and you know, I had some good. friends that. had moved over on the other side. They. were total anti-war, but some of the stuff you were hearing. was, you know, we're killing babies. We. were killing old women. We're. doing all kinds of things like that, which wasn't necessarily true.

>> Mhm. >> But, you know, I I got really excited. about the army and what we were doing. and kept thinking, they're they're. paying me to do this. Can you imagine. uh what it would cost if you just wanted. to go jump out of an airplane and have a. thrill like that? they paying me to go. do that and all all these other things. And the more I got into it, um the more.

I enjoyed it and they when I finished. AIT, they just said, "You're going to. OCS.". >> You went to OCS right away. >> Yeah. So, you need to go to OCS. Um and I said, they talked me into it. Said, you know, you can still get out. the end of your three years. because. you'll be your your two-year requirement. that you'll get from uh OCS will be over. and you can still get out of the army. You'll still get to go to Vietnam. Um.

and you can probably do some of these. other neat things like airborne ranger. stuff like that. U so I started. volunteering in in OCS to to go to. airborne school and to go to special. forces. So when I finished OCS then uh I just. went from there to airborne school. I. was already at Benning. I went to. airborne school and then uh they sent me. uh to Bragg and went through the uh. officers Q course up there and you know.

became SF and then from SF I went to. Rangers and and then went to fifth group. in Vietnam and. did what my buddy said. or didn't really do what he said. I did. the opposite. He said, "Whatever you do, do not volunteer for SLAB.". >> Why is that? >> And when I asked that question, he said, "If you do, you're going to die. And if.

you don't die, you're going to come home. uh with the crap shot out of you uh in a. nutcase. That's if they find you. Do not. volunteer for the sock." I said, "What. do they do?" I said, "Nobody knows. You. have to get there." uh and you know. volunteer and get there and then you'll. find out what you're going to do, but. you you're going to die or come back as. a nutcase. I was 21 years old.

At that time in in history, we thought. that your prefrontal cortex up here in. the front of your brain, we thought that. the only thing it really did was hold up. your cranium so that your front end, your head didn't kind of cave in. Um, and we thought it was fully developed. By the time you know you're 20 years. old, you had all your prefrontal cortex. um abilities.

really you got to be about 30 before. it's fully developed. So before it's developed, you tell somebody you're going to. volunteer to go anywhere and do anything. any time and never say a word about it. for 20 years. I can do that. I mean, that's a. recruiting poster to a 21-y old. >> Uhhuh. >> And if you if you look at the SOG. pictures of the Americans on those.

teams, almost all of them are little babyfaced. guys. You look at T at John Striker. Meyer, you look at his little baby face, you look at my little baby face, you you. look at, you know, Elden Bargewell's. little baby face. I mean, all three of. us within two or three months of of the. same age. and and we're we all look like little. baby faces because we'll go charge that. hill. We'll go to another country and do. things.

>> Mhm. >> By the time you're 30, you're saying, "Let's let the younger guys do that. I don't need to have that kind of action. anymore.". >> Mhm. Uhhuh. If you stay, if you're still. there at 30, you're still doing missions. like that, you know, as as you you saw. with with some of the seal work you were. doing, you know, it's starting to have a bad. effect on you. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> I mean, there's a limit to how much. stress you can take and recover from it,

you know, easily. So, we don't take good care of our special. operators in particular. >> Yeah. >> Who are we keep throwing them back out. there in the middle of all the stress. with no break when with no opportunity, you know, to to heal some. >> and and then we put we put all these. restrictions out there. They don't. mention the word mental health. Don't.

say you're getting a little stressed. because we'll take you off the team. >> You tier one guys, you know, like you, like the SOG guys. >> I mean, I had to pass, you know, the. flight physical. I mean, just blow it. out of the water every year. Uh, or I. couldn't be on a team like that. You. can't be tier one. You can't be Halo, you know? You got to have perfect ears, perfect eyes, perfect everything. um or.

they'll take you off the team. and what do you do? Same thing in in. sock. I mean, I used to come back and. take forceps and pull pieces I've got. scars all over. Pull pieces of shrapnel. out and not say anything about it, you. know, because I didn't want to get taken. off the team. >> You know, and civil guys do it all the. time. Dangerous guys still do it. >> You're not going to report anything. >> Yeah. >> But you don't have to. So,

>> so did you go right into SOG. >> from the Green Beret? >> Yeah. When. >> when I when I got there, um when I got. to Vietnam, um I met a buddy of mine in the bar that. first evening when I got there and he's. the one that told me, "Whatever we do, don't volunteer for SOG." Um cuz he'd. been there a month before me, so he knew. all kind of stuff, right? Um, so. the next day went through all in process.

and at the end end of the day then I. ended up Colonel Bazatz's room and he. said, "I'm looking through your folder. here. You volunteered for the army. You. volunteered for OCS. You volunteered for. airborne. You volunteered for Ranger. You volunteered for special forces. You. volunteered for Vietnam. I got the most important job that you. will ever have an opportunity to do, but. you have to volunteer for it.

And I said, you're. you're trying to get me to volunteer for. SOG. And he said, "Yes.". I said, "What do I do? What does SOG. do?" He said, "I can't tell you.". >> He couldn't tell you. You'll have I. can't tell you what they do. >> I just tell you you're going to have to. volunteer uh and and sign the volunteer. paper to go to SOG. You're going to have. to sign a a non-disclosure agreement,

20-year agreement that you won't say the. word SOG. You won't say anything about. what you guys did for 20 years or you're. going to receive the full punishment of. the law. Um, but if you'll do that, you can get in. the SOG and you can do things that. nobody else can do. So, the next day. I was supposed to be at the airfield.

They sent me down to the classified end. of of the airfield where the black. birds, the black C130s and C133s were. all parked that, you know, nobody could. go down there. So I went down there um. got on an aircraft to uh go up to in the. train and. uh there were no seats in the plane when.

it got there, just seat belts on the. floor. So the crew chief came by and he said, "Sit on the floor and buckle in." And. there were three or four of us. sit on. the floor and buckle in because when we. take off, we're going to climb as fast. as this thing will climb so that we. don't get hit on the way out. And then. when we go to land up in the train, we're going to dive toward the ground. like we're crashing so we don't get hit. on the way down. Uh and you guys just. hold on. You're going to have a great. ride. got there, got off the plane,

and they told us to where to move to, and they said, you know, there's a a SOG. bus there that's going to pick you up. and drive you on up to Dang. So, we went over to where the bus was. supposed to be, and there's a black. school bus sitting there. All the. windows are shot out of it. There must. have been 200 bullet holes in in the. bus. the seats are all ripped apart. where bullets have been hitting.

and there's a a driver there. Um went up. to him and said, "Is this the is this. the bus to up to Daang?" He said, "Yeah, what happened?". And he said, "Well, there's this one. pass that we have to go through. Um, and. the NVA like to ambush us up there, you. know, on a fairly regular basis. So, you. know, kind of shoot the bus up and the. people are in it. Uh, we're going to.

pick up a SOG team in a few minutes. Soon as they get here, um, then we'll. we'll leave. All you have to do is just. do what they tell you. to whatever they tell you to do, you do, and you'll live. If you don't, you'll. probably die before you get there. and. all of a sudden just out of nowhere. here's a a line of of about seven or. eight guys headed toward the bus. I mean. it just they disappeared and I'm looking.

at them and said I I never seen anybody. like this before. I mean I've been. special forces. I've been through. Rangers. I don't recognize the equipment. they have. I don't recognize the. uniforms they have on. And they're scary. I mean, if they had this little short, like a little short M16. Some of them. have, you know, grenade launchers that. have been cut down to that long. They. camouflaged. They had on bandanas around.

their heads, hand grenades all over. them. Scary looking dudes. They got on the bus and and said. and and they immediately took up. defensive positions on the bus. The team. just arrayed itself around the bus and. they were all at the windows ready to uh. shoot in whichever direction the fire. came from. And the guy who was the team. leader, he said, "If we run into. trouble, you get face down on the floor. of the bus and don't move until we tell.

you. Copy that.". We didn't get ambushed, but wow. You. know, you start thinking, "What did I. get into?". >> Jeez. >> Yeah. I was talking I'm talking to Elden. Bar 12, you know, several years ago. before he passed and he said, "Oh yeah, I still can see that bus in my mind all. shot up like that and wondered what have. I gotten into.". >> Is that what you were wondering? >> Yeah. So, this is this is different than.

what I thought. But, you know, it's. going to be exhilarating because. I'll be on a team like that in a few. days. >> I'll start becoming one of those guys. I. mean, those guys made the hair stand up. on the back of my neck. >> And when they get around other people, you can see everybody just kind of backs. away, gives them room. They don't get. close to them. They don't make eye.

contact with them. I mean, if you look. them in the eye, for the most part, you. see death. I mean, they're just. they've seen things nobody else has. seeing, and you can't not see it once you've. seen it. So, so I thought, you know, that part's probably pretty cool. So. went went on up got to uh Daang. >> and um the little guy that picked us up. there said uh I'm going to take you to. your quarters where you'll stay tonight.

Tomorrow you'll get your assignment. You'll get briefed. Um. and you might want to we have a movie. theater set up kind of out here. Um you. know we put a couple pieces of plywood. together. We got a movie projector and. we showed John Wayne and other kind of. movies out there and we have some. bleachers up. You might want to go out. there and watch the movie. This will be. the last chance you get to take a break. and relax a little bit.

Been in the bleachers about it's dark. Bleachers about 15 minutes. Marble. Mountain is behind us and all of a. sudden it looked like the 4th of July. Red tracers, green tracers, flares, stuff going everywhere. Now I'm face down in the sand. And the guy sitting in the bleachers. said, "Oh, I'm sorry, sir. I I should. have warned you. This happens every. night. Just watch the movie. They won't. shoot down here, you know, and in a few.

minutes all those green tracers will be. gone cuz they're dead. The team's up there on top of the. mountain. We'll take them out. Everything will be fine. Just enjoy the. movie.". Right. Yeah. My heart's pounding. Holy [ __ ]. >> So, you know, the next day. >> and. and I, you know, you pick a code name. So, I picked the dynamite code name. Then I went to up to Fubai. Uh where,

you know, John Myers already up there. Uh I went to to Fubai. We got off. It. was about five or six of us went up. there and uh the sergeant major came out. and he had a little list. He got us all. together and he said, "All right." He. read the names off and he said, "All of. you guys uh are going to leave tomorrow. to go uh back down toward the train to. one zero school to learn how to be a SOG.

team leader.". I said, "What? You didn't read my name. off." Uh Thompson. Oh. Oh. Uh, no. You're not going down there. You're SF qualified. You're Ranger. qualified. I'm putting you on a team. this afternoon. You don't need to go down there. What. you don't know that's going to be taught. down there, the team's going to teach. you over the next few days before you go. on your first mission.

Wow. And then. he said, "You know, tomorrow morning I. need you to report into the to the S4. Um, Sergeant Jones has a mission he'd. like for you to help him with that I. need an officer for. If you would help. him for that and then we'll link you up. with your team and you can get started.". Okay. They put me in quarters. went to. ask for the next morning and uh the.

sergeant said, "We've um we've had some casualties and. we have their personal effects here. They've all been packed up in duffel. bags. um before we can ship them back to. their families, their personal effects. back to their families, um the the. effects need to be um sign, you know, reviewed and signed off by an officer. So, I need you to just go through each.

of these seven duffel bags. um make sure. there's nothing in there that would be. classified, no pictures, no um you know, anything that could be uh classified. and. pack them back up, sign the sheet, and. we can get them out of here. Um. first duffel bag I picked up friend of. mine home for a break. He he went um.

sorry. it's okay. >> He went he went about 30 days you know. before me. and you know just disappeared. Nobody. knew what he where he went, what the. assignment he got when he got there. He. just went into a black hole. And you know, so he's been there 30 days. and I'm inventorying his personal. effects to send back to his family. And.

S got real. So did that went linked up with the team. and. you know went to work started training. with the team because we had a mission. coming up in a few days and. trying to learn everything I could. before we went out. But anyway, that was.

a long story of how I got to. >> What was in the bag? Um he had you know some civilian clothes. um letters you know to his parents. I. mean. you know people's personal kinds of. things like that. There were you letters. that you know that they had come from. their families. Um they were letters. they had written that they hadn't mailed. yet. um. things they had in their hooch that.

personal kinds of of things that they. would put in there. So I mean probably. half to twothirds of it you know I took. out um but I had to read the letters you. know to their families and. you know that was brutal just brutal and. you were close with them. Yeah, I I just. Anyway, >> what was his name? >> Uh, Staxs. Um, Lieutenant.

Stacks. Stan Stacks. And um, yeah, you know, I we went through uh the. officer CSF course up there and, you. know, hung out some after that. So, but. it was just a shock to my system. All. the first bag, you know, the the duffel. bag with your name stencled on the side. of it and I picked that up and it just.

holy cow, man. >> Now I know where he went. He went to SOG. like my friend had told me, you know, a. couple of days before, don't volunteer. for SOG. You're a dead man walking if. you do. And then, you know, here's. here's stacks all of a sudden. >> I'm sorry. >> So, um I mean I I got put right to work, which you know, I'd rather get to work. Let's go do it.

I I learn fast. If you show me, I'll. learn it. Um. and wasn't expecting to get ambushed. first time out. But. >> let's take a quick break. >> Sure. When we come back, we'll get into. your first mission. >> Okay. >> Have you ever dug into your budget and. realized an app or a subscription has. been living rentree for months or even. years? I know I have. And the only. reason I was able to find them and take.

action was because of Rocket Money. Rocket Money is a personal finance app. that helps find and cancel your unwanted. subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can. grow your savings. If you've got a goal. you'd like to save for, Rocket Money can. help analyze your accounts to find the. best time each month to put extra money. aside. They'll even try to negotiate. lower bills for you. The app. automatically scans your bills to find. opportunities to save and works to get.

you better deals. Rocket Money's 5. million members have saved a total of. $500 million in cancelled subscriptions. with members saving up to $740. a year when they use all of the apps. premium features. Cancel your unwanted. subscriptions and reach your financial. goals faster with RocketMoney. Go to. rocketmoney.comsrs. today. That's rocketmoney.comsrs. rocketmoney.com/srs.

building. What do you think, Sean? We're high.

[Music]. You know, before Helix sent me a. mattress to try, I had trouble sleeping, felt groggy in the morning, and never. slept comfortably. And now I honestly. can't believe how much of a difference. just getting a good night's sleep has. made to my overall wellness. And it's. all thanks to Helix. Helix mattresses.

are amazing. I don't wake up with stiff. muscles or joints anymore, and tossing. and turning is no longer an issue for. me. Helix is the award-winning mattress. brand and is recommended by many for. improving sleep. Helix can match you. based on your body type and sleep. preferences. And right now, you can save. when you decide to buy your own Helix. mattress. Go to helixleep.com/srs. for 20% off sitewide. That's. helixleep.com/srs. for 20% off sitewide. Make sure you.

enter our show name after checkout so. they know we sent you. Helixleep.com/srs. All right, Dick. We're back from the. break and we're getting ready to get. into your first mission with SOG. But. you know, something that I found. interesting that that um that you didn't. mention is SOG did not fall under the. protection of the Geneva Convention. Correct. >> Right. >> Why is that?

>> Well, we were not supposed to be in the. countries we were going into. >> We didn't have permission to go into. those countries. So. we. all missions were conducted without ID. cards, which you can't do, and be. covered with the Geneva Convention, no. dog tags, nothing uh in the beginning, nothing that said US on it. Now later on.

um. M16s and CAR 15s and and those types of. weapons became so ubiquitous in in that. area that anybody could be carrying. something a weapon that said US on it. So they took the restriction of that. In. the beginning, you carried a you know a. Sten gun or Swedish K or something like. that rather than American guns. So they. took that off. But um because we had no.

identification of any type on us, then. we were considered spies if we were. caught. is that. >> and it was also um gave the US. government plausible deniability that. they didn't have anything to do with us. >> That's that's what prompted the. different uniforms and different gear. and everything. >> Wow. >> No. Yeah. Like I said later, um I mean. we went to the regular jungle fatigues.

or Tiger Stripe or whatever. >> Very interesting. Let's get into your first mission. >> Okay. We had kind of started it before. where they assigned me right off the. bat. Um so even the SOG rule was even if. you come in as an officer like I I did. uh when you went to a team, you could.

not go as the team leader. you had to go. out as an assistant team leader or a. certain number of missions until the. team leader that was vetting you said, you know, this guy's ready to to lead a. team. So, um, so I went out with team RT. Alabama to start with, um, to to get to. learn really what it was like and get. vetted cuz it's.

it it's just a a river, but there was. something about when you cross that. river into that other country, everything was different. I mean, you. didn't make contact with with 20 or 30. guys and have a gun battle. You made contact with 500. You know, it's like kicking the top off. of an antill. I mean, they would just. swarm once they figured out where you.

were. They were coming from everywhere. to try to get you. And. the other the other thing it was kind of. reminds me of jiu-jitsu in that with. jiu-jitsu you you and your opponent kind. of lay down in the floor and you get. your best hold on each other and then. they say go and you try to fight your. way out of it with us. They would take. us into Laos or wherever, set us down,

put the NVA all around, just hundreds. and hundreds of them all around us with. us in the middle and then they'd say, "Go. accomplish your mission and then see if. you can get out." So you you started off. surrounded with every mission. >> Sheesh. and and just. there just so many of them when you did. and then I worked mostly up north with.

Laos, you know, North Vietnam. The uh. terrain up there is very mountainous and. double triple canopy jungle, thick. vegetation. I mean, most of the time when I made. contact, you would, you know, this close to me. maybe 10 meters, maybe 15 meters. That's. when we made contact. And I probably. couldn't see the other 20 people who. were with you because they were standing.

a couple meters further back in the. vegetation. I could I could hear the gunshots. I. could see the bushes moving as you know. the the blast came and things like that. So, a lot of times I was shooting at. just movement, shooting at sound, shooting at the one or two that I could. see and and bullets were just coming. from everywhere. You were never shooting. at one. You might think you're shooting. at one person, but there's 30 or 40.

shooting back at you. And it it was when. you made contact in in Vietnam, which. we'd go do a lot just for practice so. you can have a live shoot back target, you know, you you run up on five 10 guys. and and have a gunfight. But when five or 10 turns into 100 and. 200 and there more coming. um it becomes difficult. So the the the.

hardest or the easiest thing. is to get inserted and sometimes that's. a real problem. But still getting. inserted seems to be the easiest part. Accomplishing the mission becomes really. difficult. Getting out becomes almost impossible. And you know it's like that almost every. mission. And you get in trying to accomplish the.

mission with everything going on, but. then how do you get out? I mean, it can. go on for hours and hours and hours. trying to get out cuz you can't get the. fire suppressed enough to get a. helicopter in. And. I mentioned Prairie Fire Emergency. earlier. If we were about to be overrun, uh, if I. call on the radio and declare prairie. fire emergency, everything within range. that has ordinance is getting diverted.

to me to try to help get me out. Um, so all of a sudden, I mean, there are. times when I'd have 14 gunships in orbit. waiting their turn to come in, you know, five or six F4 Phantoms in orbit ready. to come in. and some uh you know other. types of aircraft all in orbit just. waiting their turn to come in and expend. their ordinance on the bad guys so I.

could try to get out. So anyway, >> what was it like when you I mean you. show up as an officer. to the most elite unit at the time. and. they want you to lead one. I mean how. are you received by those guys? um. >> young guy, 21 years old, only been to. the schools, you know, qualified SF, qualified Ranger, but you know, even in.

today, that doesn't mean much. When you. show up to the team, I can't imagine. what the reception's like for a for a. junior officer to show up at a team like. that of those type of men to be led. >> I John Meyer might have told you what. the perception was. >> He did. >> Yeah. Uh he he told me one time that um. he said you you were one of the few. officers.

that actually wanted to go out and was. not afraid to go out and could perform. when you were out there. And he said, you know, that made you. different than most of the officers. And. most officers, they went out a few times. and they didn't go back out again. You know, they they found another job. Um, but you know, enlisted NCOs's did. that too. I'm telling you, when you go.

over there and experience what it's. like, you have to think long and hard before. you say, "I'm I'm ready to go back.". because it was just so different when. you went out there and. you know I was I thought I was given a a. fair chance. Um Sergeant um Gentry Deck. um.

he didn't seem to have any qualms. He. just you know we'll see what you can do. it's my team and you know I'll tell you. what I want you to do and you do it and. you know I was okay with that. Mhm. >> Um. and you know the the guys in um when you. when you went into the lounge the club. um you know you could sit with more. senior guys there people with more. experience and you know they would chat.

with you and they. I think first or second day I was there. um this E7 was talking to me came over. met me and and we we started talking and. and uh at one point he said, "Uh, let me. let me tell you something, Lieutenant. Never ever. shoot an NVA less than three or four. times.

Every time you shoot one, you shoot them. three or four times. If they twitch, you shoot them three or. four more times. Don't ever assume that you've shot. somebody and they're dead. because we've had a lot of SOG people. kill shot in the back because they. walked past the NVA that they had shot. and thought was dead. >> Damn. >> And he said, "You make sure you do the. job the first time.". And you know, that was that was a rule I.

adopted. There's no single shots. There's no double tap. If I shoot you, I'm going to shoot you. I'm gonna You're. going to get hit a lot of times. And. most of the time I shot short bursts on. automatic. I shoot you, you know, three. or four round burst cuz I want to make. sure I hit you. I want to make sure. you're going down. And you know, if you. don't go down fast enough, I'm going to. hit you with three or four more rounds.

And you know, that was one of the. reasons I carried a lot of ammunition. So, um, Deck was very open to having me on. there, particularly, um, after, you know, we had the first. mission, we'd go out, we're doing a last. light, um, insertion. and we're going to go do a wire tap once. we get on the ground.

So, we we go out, it's starting to get. dark. Um, we circle around and we come. in on our run uh toward the LZ. You deck. gave a thumbs up. That means get out on the skids with 30. seconds out. I climbed out on the skids. Um, the other American climbed out on my. side with me. on the door gunners right next to me. We. were on a Huey. Um, and we're coming in.

really low and we're just going across. the tree. I mean, the skids are almost. dragging into the top of the canopy and. we're going slow and I was thinking. an NVA could knock me off of the skid. with a rock. I mean, we're just barely. moving. I'm I'm exposed to the world. standing out here. And wow, there's a little village over there.

Looks like six or seven hooches in a. little village. That that wasn't in our briefing. There was nothing said about a village. being that close to where we were going. in. So we come on up and and they had blown. a hole in the canopy and it was just. barely big enough for the chopper to. just set straight down in. So, we're. settling down in there and I'm I'm. scanning uh you know the tree line and.

um. still thinking I I just you know a. setting duck out here. and we get down it looks like as far as. we're going to be able to go. We're. still about 6 ft from the bottom of of. the bomb crater. Um, and I'm thinking we. I've got to jump off the skid down in. this thing with 80 lbs of gear on. I'm. going to break both legs. They want to.

hit down there. And while I'm I'm having that thought, you know, it's time to suck it up and. just jump. So, you know, I bent my knees. so I could, you know, kind of hop off. And as I bend down, this guy NVA pops up. right there 10 feet away from me, you. know, in the bomb crater, AK-47. Holy cow. So instead of jumping in, I.

straighten my legs up and hop back up on. the edge of the floor of the aircraft. As I do that, he pulls the trigger on. the AK. My legs move just in time. They. went right across in front of me and hit. the American that was on the other side. of me. They hit his legs. and took him out from under him. He. started to fall. I grabbed the back of. his harness with my left hand. I put a. half a magazine into that guy. Um I. drugg him back up into the aircraft,

you know, but he's yelling and. hollering, you know, by his legs. Blood's going everywhere there. the two. um indig behind me both open fire uh out. going out of the helicopter one on each. side of me and I'm getting powder burns. from their muzzle flashes going death as. that as that's happening and you know. the door gunners opened up. and it's just unbelievable the number of. bullets that all all of a sudden are.

coming crisscrossing inside the aircraft. um hitting the aircraft you can hear the. metal clings as they hit. Um, I see another one now. I finish off my. magazine on him. Now, I've got to. reload. And. that's when I discovered what stress. does to you motor coordination. So, I reached to try to get a magazine. out of my pouch. My hand is just soaked.

with the blood that's squirting out of. his leg. I'm trying to get the magazine. out. I couldn't get it and it was stuck. in there. My hand was slick. I finally. got it out. Um, but when I went to put. it in, my hand was shaking so much I. couldn't get it in the magazine weld at. first. I finally got it in there so I. could start returning fire. Um, the next. one, you know, came right out of the. pouch. It wasn't that big of a deal, but. uh, it went in a lot easier.

Um, but I had never experienced that level. of fear before. I mean, I just and I. it's hard to believe today that that. many bullets could come at you uh that. fast. and none of them hit you. So, start returning fire, knock some. guys that who were in the trees, knock. them out. At the same time that's. happening, you know, we had two covert.

gunships that were coming in, you know, right beside us. They opened up with. their miniguns. And so you have, you. know, 4,000 rounds a minute coming down. from from the Cobras, uh, hitting right. next to us, ricochets going everywhere. You know, there's traces all over the. place. They're firing. The next two. cobras right behind them are firing 40. mm. you know, that's exploding all. around us. Um, everybody in the aircraft.

on both sides are shooting. You can see. the cr treasures crisscrossing on the. inside. And you know, the pilot I think. I think that's the first time he'd been. ambushed like that with people that. close. And it seemed like he just. froze or stopped or something because. we're just sitting there, you know. I. always think we we need to be going up, getting out of this hole. Um, and. finally we started moving. The aircraft.

shaking, trembling all over, going up. Uh, the bad guys are all shifting their. fire up. The Cobras are coming in. Uh, you know, they're just circling around. and and coming in. And then we had some. uh Sky Raiders, A1 Sky Raiders coming. in, flying across in in front of us and. dropping 250 lb bombs. Not right there, but off to the side. I found out later. those hooches in the village over there.

were not hooches. They were tanks with thatch put around. them to make them look like, you know, they were thatched houses over there. They were actually tanks and they. started moving when all this started. happening, you know. So the A1s went. after them and started putting the bomb. So with all the other stuff that's going. on, when those things start the bomb. start going off, now you're getting. these blast waves coming across that's.

trying to knock the helicopter into the. trees. you know, and and we're getting. hit with the blast, but finally, you. know, we we got up and we're able to. start moving. and flying away from it and we're still. getting 51 calibers and things coming up. at us and and I looked over, you know, at at Sergeant Deck. and and he looked around at me and he's. grinning like a horse eating saw briars.

and giving me a thumbs up And I was. think, "Oh my god, he thinks that's the. coolest thing he's done lately." He. enjoyed that. And and he did. And I. thought, "Wow.". You know, he he's done this, you know, quite a few times, so it's not his first. radio, but um he enjoyed that. Scared. the crap out of me. Um then we get back. and we had the conversation of. uh you know, Lieutenant, if you don't. learn to change magazines faster, you're.

going to die. Um, but every time, except for the last time, every time we. went out on a mission, as we would be. extracted, when I'd look over at him, I. see that big grin and thumb up. He was. so excited about that. So, yeah, that. got my attention. >> I bet it did. Unfortunately, before uh before the mission, the camp. commander up there had. called me over, wanted to talk, and he.

said, "I just I know this is your first. mission. I want you to understand, we're. not going to put you out there where we. can't get you back. If we put you in. there, we're going to bring you back.". Said, "Okay.". So when I got back from that mission and. got to the hooch and spent some time. with Jack Daniels, I decided to go talk to the camp. commander. learning experience, you know, to go to.

the camp commander and tell him his baby. is ugly. There's some problems with the. process. Um, but you know, he didn't fire me. That. was good. He he recognized, you know, had had a, you know, significant experience there and then. compounded it with a little Jack. Daniels. And. so I didn't do that. I learned. definitely learned from that. But. >> what did you think the problems were?

>> I thought part of it was. uh. it flea we we had a range. We had a big. open area, huge open area that we would. go to to do immediate action drills to, you know, test fire different weapons. and things and there were no you could. shoot in any direction out there and I. mean he could practice but it's not the. jungle. The jungle is very different. you know, when I'm out where I can I can see 1,000.

meters out in front of me, that's different from where I I'm, you. know, 10 m, 15 m out. It is about the. range of my vision and and then after. that mission, you know, the next one we. got on the ground and just moving. through the jungle and particularly. moving once um contact is made, it's. very different. So when we got down to. Daang, we had a jungle we could go.

practice in. Monkey Mountain. We could. go over there and you were in a real. jungle. So you could practice moving, falling over logs, stepping in holes, and all that kind of stuff. But but I. learned a lot from that. One of, you. know, one of the things was I want more. ammunition. and I've got to be able to get the. magazines out. So had had the magazine stuffed in the. uh canteen pouch. So what I I did was I.

took a piece of parachute cord and some. duct tape and I made a loop, taped it onto the side of the magazine. So there was a loop sticking up on that. center magazine. I could just stick my. finger in and I could jerk that magazine. out. And once it was out, the rest of. them were loose. It was they were easy. to get out. You came up with that. yourself. >> I had heard somebody talk about, you. know, putting a loop on it or a string. on it or something.

>> and I thought that makes sense. So I I. tried that and yeah, you know, when I. was practicing that first one would come. right out. So I started, you know, doing. them all like that. Um, but just, you. know, that was part of it was learning. that, making sure I had them in the. right place, making sure, uh, since I. was right-handed, the grenades were in. the pouch on the right hand side. Um, magazines on the left hand side, you.

know, so you could you could go with. them. Uh, water was in the back. Um, and. then after a couple of times on the. ground, I started to flatten out what. was on my waist. Uh to me it seemed like. the closer you could get to the ground, the the better your chance of surviving. because I'd be laying on the ground and. my rucks sacks getting hit. So I thought. if I could get a little bit closer that. gets me, you know,

>> wow, a little ways further. I mean, I'd. come back by my ruck shot, a rucks sack. shot up on just about every mission. I'm laying down, but the bullets have. come in that close. better side picture. too. >> Yeah. And. so you know I started making little. changes like that and then once I became. team leader. then I you know implemented those. changes to the to the whole team. But. some of them along the way, you know, I.

would make suggestions to to Deck and. say, "What if what if as soon as we get. in, excuse me, we get into our remain. overnight position, um, quick meeting before everybody goes. down. This is the direction uh, we're. going to go if we get hit. This is our. avenue of escape. Here's where we think. they're coming. the claymores are out. there. Um, you know, so we we started.

having that little quick debrief um, you. know, like that and then started the. afteraction reviews where we we did kind. of a formal afteraction review with the. team. Um, a running I put I implemented our. talk deck into implementing a a running. password. Uh if we got scattered and you're. running and you coming up on somebody, uh. we would have a running password.

Um example, uh bug fuzz. You think that makes sense. Well, not. only does it not necessarily make sense, it was hard for them to say. So if if I don't speak the language and. I hear you say something bug fuzz, I. can't understand what you're saying. I. don't know what it means. So it's hard.

for me as as the NBA to use that same. word to come running into you. So every. time we were compromised and and had to. use a running password, the next time we. went out, we had a different one. So I. kept, you know, changing those and. um yeah, so just putting things in like. that. And Deck was pretty good about um. going along with that. And and then.

uh Christmas Christmas we went out and. it was going to be uh the last mission. that. this team ran out of FUA. They were. going to close it. close fub by down. Um. then we got in really heavy contact and. um. when we got finally got on the. helicopter and they were just really. pummeling the helicopter and we got on.

it and we started lifting off. I looked. over at Dick expecting, you know, the. big grin and the thumb up and he just. looked up at me and then he looked back. down. I was, "Oh crap.". you know, he he must have gotten hit. I. mean, he's never done that before. He. must have got hit. So, I kind of crawled. over there to him and grabbed him by the. shoulder and said, "Are you okay?". And, you know, he said, "No,

I'll talk to you when we land.". So, when we got on the ground, I grabbed. him up and I What's going on? And he said, "I'm done.". I I'm done. When we get when we get to Daang, I I'm. going to have a different job. Don't. tell the team. I'll tell the team, but I. don't want to tell them right now,

but I won't be on the team after this. after we get to the name. And you know, I thought that was good. He he had recognized. it was time to do something different. And. sometime I found some some people. couldn't or wouldn't recognize that. you've got to know when you you've.

gotten up to the edge where you're now. dangerous. dangerous to yourself, dangerous to the rest of the team, and. you need to take yourself out because. even though you you had to sign up for. six missions or six months, after the first mission, if you went to. the one your team leader and said, "I'm. done. I don't want this any I can't do. this anymore. I want out." That was. fine. you know, you would be taken out and.

either put somewhere else in in the D. the Nang or wherever you were or back to. special forces, go to, you know, regular. special forces unit or something. because you didn't need to be going out. there if. you know once you had decided that you. couldn't do that. because it the volume of fire was so. heavy, so intense. events when you were. out there. Um,

all decisions had to be made quickly. and you had to continue to adapt cuz. those suckers were coming at you. and. just, you know, with with me it was now. I'm going to be the leader. I need to be learning more. And I started watching the NBA. What did. what did they do when we make contact?

Is there a pattern to how they behave. when we make contact? And I started to see a pattern. And. just the simple example, um, if you're. an NVA and and we make contact and you. go down behind a tree, 95% of the time. when you decide to return fire back at. me, you will come around the right side.

of the tree. from your perspective, the. right side of the tree. The muzzle of. the AK will come around your forehead. will be right behind it if I know that. So, I'm out here from my perspective. I. watch the left side of the tree and I'll. see you start to come around it and I've. already zeroed in on it and I'm ready. when I see that muzzle come around. I. know your forehead's right behind it and. I'm ready to, you know, launch three or. four rounds at you.

And I told my my team, I implement it. with the next team and I said, "They'll. do that every time." I said, "Watch. Just watch. They'll do that." And you. can take them out. And we came back and. we debriefed it and they said, "Wow, they do. They shoot around that side of. the tree or rock or whatever it is.". said, "Okay, here's here's the big thing.

you got to realize. We do that, too. We're humans. We're. going to shoot around that right side of. the tree every time unless we train it. out of ourselves.". >> Or you're left-handed. >> Or you're left-handed. So, we've got to practice doing that. But we know where they are. When they go. down almost without fail, they will. shoot from where they went down. When we. go down, we've got to roll one way or. the other. Don't shoot from where you.

went down because they're going to shoot. right where they saw you go down last. time. You got to move before they start. shooting and they get you. And there's a. whole series of things like that that I. call the the human reaction to uh combat. that humans do instinctively and they. don't even realize they're doing it most. of the time. But if you know how they're. going to react, you know which way. they're going to run and what they're. going to do, that gives you the. advantage. Um,

it gives you the advantage with uh close. quarters combat. You know, when I I. watch people, you know, from the. catwalk, I watch people go through the. rooms clearing them and everything and I. think, "Holy cow." You know, if that. joker was in there with live ammo. shooting at you, he's going to take you. out. And you know they're just in in the US. uh for example. if.

if you come into this building. and I I know you're coming in as a SWAT. team for example or as a stack with the. military you're coming in. I can take you out but just by shooting. a row across the wall there I'll get. half your team because you're all. leaning up against that, you know, drywall and that bullet's going to go. right through it. So, I can take out a. bunch of you right there. There there's. a whole series of things. And don't.

stand close to the wall. If I shoot at. the wall and I hit the wall, even. drywall, a lot of times you can get a. ricochet that's going to come off that. wall just a little ways. And if you're. standing a couple feet from me, it's. going to hit you. Uh. how you hold your weapon when you go in. there. And I won't go into all that. right now, but I really started working. with them on um what I was what was. called quick kill when I went through.

the training, how to shoot from the. waist and hit your target every time. You don't have to aim. Uh we went. through a whole course of brag on that. with BB guns and then graduated the. M16s. Um I and some of the work I do with you. know active shooters and stuff like that. and um showing the police. you and I both turn into the hall at the. same time.

I'll hit you three times before you can. get your weapon ready to fire. because I'm I'm already ready to fire. I. just need to see a target and I can hit. you without moving my weapon at all. and. you've still got yours at a downpour and. you've got to try to bring it up. And. what'll happen in that situation is as. you're bringing it up, you'll be able to. spend the rest of your life. thinking about why you did it that way.

Of course, the rest of your life is. going to be about a half a second, but. I know there are lawyers. I know they're. safety things, but you got to think. about your opponent. uh and about how to take them out. >> But anyway, but we did all kind of. practice on the range of pictures in the. in the books out on the range of us. shooting from there, putting the. silhouettes out and practicing hitting. those things. If you're 20 m or closer,

I'll hit you every time without aiming. I used to put five silhouettes out there. and. you know let one of the team members say. go and as I was falling to the ground. I'd hit all five targets before I hit. the ground. and you can do that but you got to. practice. >> Mhm. >> Um and they loved it when you you gave. them techniques they could use that. would work. They loved it.

How did it feel to take over the team? >> I was excited. I really was. Um a little. nervous because I didn't know this team. Uh I took over the team when we moved to. Daang. that they actually split up um Alabama. and kind of sent them to different. places and coach Deck was going to. different job and I took over uh RT. Michigan. The one zero had been wounded.

He was gone. There was a guy spec 4 on. the team. Uh, Elden Wardwell, um, hard dude, good dude, you know, so. legend, delta force commander forever. I. mean, just you name it, special ops. wise, he did it. Um, but at that time he. was my assistant team leader. Um, so working in working with him was was.

good. We got another American in for a. while. Um, and it was a mineard team, good team. Um, and Elden and I worked. together, you know, really well. So, >> what was your first mission as team. leader? >> Uh, the first one, oh, uh, it was one where we were going to try a. new insertion technique. There was a a.

company in the 101st that had moved up. right up next to the border, Laian. border. So the plan was. they were going to insert us into the. that 101st company. So on one of their. resupply missions and where they were. bringing in some additional um new. recruits in there, we were going to put. the team on those helicopters.

dressed like the 101st steel pot, all. that kind of stuff. We were going to fly. in, get off just like we were new people. coming in. Uh and then we would spend. the night there uh in their perimeter. And at first light, we would go down to. the stream, big stream that was down. there, uh, on with the water supply. So, we would go down with some 101st guys, dress like them to get water. Except.

when we got down there, we would change. into our Superman suit, stuff the 101st. stuff in a bag. those guys would get the. water and go back uh you know to the. perimeter and we would move out across. the river uh into the into the jungle. So we we would make you know that. clandestine insertion. First time. and really the only time that I ever had.

a chance to have to be within range of. of artillery. had set up a fire base out there to. support them. Um, so once we we got. inserted. and had a conversation with the uh. company first sergeant coming over and. saying, "All right, I want you guys to. dig in around here.". And my interpreter looked at me and. said, "We know dig.".

I said, "Tonight we do. We know dig." I. said, "Look, they're probably going to get hit really. hard tonight. Bullets are going to be. coming from everywhere, and you guys look like the guys who were. shooting at them. You need to be down in a hole or you're. going to get shot from inside the. perimeter." We did. So, okay. So, they. dug in. Sure enough, we got pounded that. night. and you know the hole saved us.

But that was cool. But I had you know. that evening I had met with the company. commander and a fire support officer and. couple of lieutenants and I kind of laid. out for him this this is what we're. going to do and here's here's what I. need. I want uh target, you know, artillery. targets plotted on these areas right. here at these coordinates. And I want.

them named Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. I want to be able to just call up and. say from Monday, you know, right 200 down 100 fire for. effect. And it was funny, you know, he was. company commander and he looked at me. like, "Wow, that sounds I never heard of that. before. That sounds cool." I said, "When. I need it, I need it.".

So, um, we went in, crossed over, and. we were doing there was a hatchet force. that was across the road on the other. side, and we were supposed to make sure. no one approached them from the side of. the road we were on. Um, so we had the targets plotted out there. and. we heard some mortars that first night.

firing, you know, at the hatchet force. I could tell they were close to one of. our targets. So I just called it in and. they dropped, you know, some 105 rounds. over there and that shut the mortars up. from that position. So, so we started doing that, but after. about 3 days, um the launch commander decided we. needed to be resupplied.

ammunition and water. and I Kobe said they were coming. I. said, "No, I we don't want to resupply. Don't Well, he needs your grid. coordinates so they can just they can. hover and drop the supplies down through. the camp." I said, "No, I'm not going to. tell him where I am.". So, few minutes, Cubby came back and he. said, "If you're not going to tell him. where you are, he's going to drop them. at the last set of coordinates we had on. you guys.".

No. When you do that, they're going to. know right where we are. It's too late. I can see them coming. So, sure enough, they dropped all that. stuff down. So we ran down and grabbed most of it. and hit it. Took the water with us and. moved out quickly, but boy, they were. they were on us shortly after that. And. you know, things didn't go well. Our. worked pretty good, but there were just. too many of them. And now they knew.

where we were. And. we um. where I got that big insight about if. you stop moving they're going to. surround you. We got into those rocks. and I stopped us. I thought we could. defend from there. Big mistake. They. just circled us just like a big amoeba. and we were there supper. The only way. we could get out was go up. So eventually got the fire suppressed.

enough they could drop McGuire rigs down. for us and and pull us out. So I sent. Bargewell and the other American and a. couple indig out on the first aircraft. I stayed there uh with the other two. indigen. place and die. we could try to run and. escape someplace and get away or we. could go up those ropes. Um I decided we.

we'll go up the ropes, but we had nobody. to go as far support from the ground. So man, they're just shooting away at us. as we were going up. I got couple rounds. in the the radio. Killed killed my radio. big chunk of. shrapnel went into my survival radio. that I was wearing right over my heart. Um the buried itself in there, killed.

the killed that radio. Um. and you know both the indig got wounded. as we were we were going up and we're. flying along. 7,000 ft 100 miles an hour. oscillating back and forth. I could see. my rope fraying on the edge of the floor. of the helicopter. No radio, no way to call and say, "I'm. developing a little problem up there.".

Um, I couldn't tell him that the other. guys were wanted, but we we made it to a fire support. base. And um in the book. you there's a picture in there of a. helicopter coming in um to a fire. support base and you can see three guys. hanging on the end of the ropes down. below him. Um the guy that's the lowest. on the rope uh is me and the other two.

are hanging right above me. So what had. happened is Bargewell and and his little. group came in first. these guys on the. fire support, but they never seen. anybody coming from that side of the. border. or hanging under a helicopter like that. So, there was a guy there who had bought. a brand new mini Polaroid camera before. he came over to Vietnam. He brought it.

with him. So, he saw Bargewell and his group, you. know, come. He ran and got his camera, came back out in time to see me and my. two guys coming in and took a picture of. it. So they set us down. They got us in. the helicopter and they started just as. they started lift off the ground. This. guy comes running over holding his arm. up in the air with something in it. I. reached down and took it as we as we. lifted off and it was a picture that um.

he took as we were coming in. Have no clue who he was but he he took. an actual picture of us live coming in. hanging on those ropes. >> Jeez. >> So that's pretty cool. >> Yeah. >> So still have it put it in the book. But anyway, we got back good um good. debriefing and one of the the things. that I had figured out by then was.

doing an afteraction review is not. just to figure out what went well, what. didn't go so well, what you might want. to change, but it's. psychologically it gives me an. opportunity if I'm upset about something. you said, "I think you left me hanging out. You. didn't have my six or whatever." It. gives me a chance to bring that up and. let's get it settled right here. Get it. off the chest. It gave me a chance to,

you know, I could facilitate what was. going on so you guys didn't go duke it. out after a while. Um, but we could get. that resolved uh and get your stress. level back down and, you know, we could. move forward. And then we also did um. and these are the post training things. we're going to do based on what we did. out there. One of them in this case was. why did we not have those stupid.

harnesses on to start with. I mean you could wear a swift seat. You. could have it on. You could have it, you. know, just wear it a little loose if if. you wanted to. All you have to do is. tighten the knot up and you can snap. onto that joker and go, but to try to put on a Swiss seat. when you got bullets coming at you from. every direction, then you're trying, you're flat down on your back trying to. get that thing on and you're trying to,

you know, return fire. I mean, that's. not easy. Why not put it on beforehand? I mean, you know, just little things like that. that you can think of. Now, let's go. practice that. Let's implement that as a SOP. So, we started doing things like that. and it was pretty good until. Dick Meadows came in and. said,

"Can BS take over the team?". Said, "Sure.". No problem. He He knows exactly what. he's doing. So anyway, >> where did you go from there? >> Uh, that's when I did the run on the. beach with um Dick Meadows the next. morning and and did the let's review all. the people. Um, and then he put me on a.

this other super top secret mission to. go into the MIGA pass. And actually, John Meyer had also been given that. mission. And they counled it at the last. minute. They gave it to me. I told the. people in Saigon when I went down for a. briefing, I. said, "This is not going to work.". I said, 'I know you think there's no one. up on that ridge that's going to be. protecting uh those convors going.

through there. I said, I guarantee you. there people up there. Why do you think. they're not up there? Well, we fly over. there all the time and nobody shoots at. us. I said, of course they're not going. to shoot at you. They don't want you to. know they're up there. But when you put. a team up there, they're going to walk. right into them. So here here's my recommendation. land a target thousand meters away.

on that ridge line. Let's hit that. target about, you know, with the L4s. about 2:00 in the morning. While that's. being hit, let's fly a Huey. at about 300 ft. Lights out, full blast. coming across this little clearing. that's uh on that ridge. I'll slide out of the helicopter. No reserve because won't need it. It's. too low. I'll just ease out. I'll be on.

the ground within a minute or so. Pack. it up. Hide it. I'll move up there to. the ridge. They'll never know I'm there. I'm one. person. They're not going to find me. And worst case is they do find me. And. what do you lose? You lose one crazy SF. guy, not a whole team, not some. helicopters trying to get him out. You know, I can go do that. It'll be a. lot more secure and easier to do if you.

just let me go do it myself. Holy cow. I mean, they just went bananas. I was crazy. They had no way they were. going to let me go out by myself. So, uh, but that mission ended up getting. cancelled. Anyway, >> you volunteered for a singleton mission. in Vietnam. >> Yeah. I mean, it just looked to me like.

there were a lot of SOG missions where. the mission was to go set on a ridge. line or go find the location of a. battalion. Just go do something. Nothing. kinetic about it. Just sneak and peek. and and find out. get the information, get it back in, get out. Um, that I could just go do. I mean, drop me. out there in the middle of the night. Nobody's going to be expecting it. Helicopter comes across that low, nobody's going to think you're going to.

parachute in. It just screams across. through there. They don't see it. It's. dark. They hear it. They just don't know. what happened. They know it didn't stop. And, you know, I just carried a survival. radio. not even carry the PRC 25, all that. garbage. I don't need all that weight. I. just need to get in there. I need to. send you a signal when I is I'm ready to. come out and you know if things are too. hot or too bad around that area,

I'll start walking. You can pick me up somewhere else. And. if you can't find me, you know I'm. walking toward the border. might take me. a while, but eventually I'll get there. And. Meta. Meta said, "No, you're crazy. I'm not putting you out. there by yourself.". He said, "No." Camp commander said, "No." SOG chief said, "No,

you can't do that.". And then. fate said, I'm going to activate. RT Dynamite. Everybody else has said no, but fate is about to say yes. You are. about to be activated, dude. So that's when I did the R&R mission.

>> Holy [ __ ] Let's go into it. So. yeah, I mean. I felt. I I was I was convinced I could just I. could move. quieter, farther, more effectively. And with some missions, you know, it was. just me. I didn't need a team with me to.

because I wasn't going out there to make. contact or to fight anybody. I was to be. silent, hidden, collect the information. I needed and get out. So. when I did go out, it wasn't all that. silent, but. still worked. >> How many times did you do that?

>> Only got to do it the one time. But, you know, it ended up I had to go. There were a bunch of people in trouble. and somebody needed to go get them and. lead them out. So, I did that. >> Can you be a little more descriptive? >> I I just come back from a mission. uh rough mission and they were going to. give me two days. um let your team have.

two days, take a break before we give. you your next mission. So I decided I was going to leave camp, go downtown for a couple of days cuz if. I stayed in camp, somebody was going to. find me, give me something to do. I was heading for the gate. Heard a helicopter coming. Helicopter. landed on our pad. a lot of activity. going on around it. And.

uh one of the one of the people there. bumbling around with the helicopter saw. me walking toward the gate. He started. yelling. I couldn't understand you, but so I. moved closer to him and he ran over to. me and he said, "Do do you know how to. rig uh Magguire rigs to the floor of a. helicopter so that we can use them? We. got an emergency going on." Uh I said, "Sure. Done that lots of times. I can.

rig that up." So I I ran over. I had a. had my car 15. Had a bandelier with me. set that against the condent container, jumped in the helicopter, started, you know, making all the. appropriate ties and fasten it down, getting them rigged and ready to go. And then the helicopter started to move. Told the crew chief, I said, "Hey, I'm. still on here." And he said, "Sorry.

about that. Um, we got to go. We're in. trouble.". So he said, "You just have to go with. us." So, okay. I mean, I don't know what. you're going to do or anything, but. yeah, I guess I I'll go with you. So, I sat back and I just kind of. started thinking about what was going. on. Uh, and I had this one vision just. started playing over and over in my.

mind, and it was that the helicopter in. front of us got shot down. When we got there, the only way to get. to the helicopter was to go down the. Magguire rig. I drop the Meguire rig and. go down the rope, but it was like I was looking into a. black hole. I couldn't see what was. really going on. Anyway, I pulled the. crew chief over and said, you know, I. had this crazy vision.

you know, helicopter in front of us is. shot down and now we're there. And I. think I might have to go down and do. something. And he said, "You're crazy.". Said, "Yep.". And about 10 minutes later, he pulled me. over and he said, "You're not going to. believe this. They just shot down the. middle of helicopter in front of us.". Said, "Okay, that's interesting." In my mind, I. started thinking, I think RT dynamite.

might have just been activated. Somebody's going to have to go down. there. So, when we got there, the first. helicopter. that they shot down, it crashed and. burned. Um, three three survivors, the pilot, uh, the co-pilot, and NTO that was on. there with him. Um this the medevac got. there uh dropped the Magguire jungle.

penetrator down. They put the um the. co-pilot and the sergeant on the jungle. penetrator. Medevac started pulling it. up. It got hit. Lost power. It went forward. And the jungle. penetrator is just like a big grappling. hook that you're sitting on. So it was. they were about 100 ft in the air and it. got caught on a big limb. The cable. snapped and it was just like, you know,

the medevac had been shot out of a. slingshot or something. It just fired it. right through the canopy. Um and into a. ravine. So when we got there, we circled around. I could see the helicopter. was face down into a ravine and you the. crew was still in it. You could see the. fuel spilling out over them. I could. see, you know, 40 50 NVA coming up the.

ridge toward that. It is going to take. them out. Plus any, you know, a tracer, anything ignite that fuel. They were all. going to burn. and and they were so. banged up and everything they couldn't. get out of the ship. So. I told the pilot circle around. uh hover, you know, close to that hole. and I was going to drop a Magguire rig. and go down there. So I borrowed the.

crew chief's M16. and. stepped out on the the skid. We're about. 400 ft high. in receiving fire. And Magguire went rig. went down. It was 150 ft long, but it. was still up above the canopy that was. 150 ft high, but uh I told a crew to. get him to lower it some cuz I've got a. I'm going to go down.

No, I didn't have any gloves or. anything. turned out to be a brand new. nylon rope. And I thought, you know, if I squeeze. really hard and I wrap my feet around. it, I can slow it down enough it's not. going to burn that much. And about 30 ft down, I realized the. flaw in my plan. I couldn't squeeze it. that hard. The rope had already turned. red. It was just taking everything off.

both ends. I was bleeding, blood running. off my elbows, people shooting at me. Right on down. When I got to the. Magguire rig, I was able to, you know, cuz it was pretty big, I was able to to. stop. But, you know, I was 20 or more feet up. above the canopy at that point. And he. was taking enough fire he was going to. leave. So, I knew I needed to go ahead. and just drop into the canopy before he.

carried me off. and I'd be too high to. do that. So, you know, I dropped. went into the canopy and um I discovered. it's really hard even in a jungle canopy. to be able to grab a hold of something. and hold on to it uh when you're falling. through. So, took me about 100 ft or so, bouncing off limbs and things before I. finally managed to hit with my stomach.

and kind of wrapped around a big limb. Got my breath and broke a couple ribs. and things as I was falling through. No. meat on my hands. Climbed down. Soon as I got to the. ground, two NBA standing there, so. terminated them. >> How'd you do that? that technique I was talking to you. before where I put five silhouettes out. and I just go full auto as I went down. to the ground because I I still had the.

the M16 that I took from the crew. I lost one of the magazines, but I put. another one in it. He'd given me a. bandelier with five magazines. Um, so I. took those two out and then started. moving toward the the crew that was. still trapped in the helicopter. Um, the pilot started shooting at me. cuz he didn't know anybody else was down. there, you know, where I was coming. from. Um, I could hear that little 38.

popping as he was shooting at me. Um, so I'm yelling at him and telling him, "Hey, I'm the rescue team." And finally. he had to reload and when he reload I. charged him and you know he once he saw. me and he was kind of in shock because. he's looking at me and thinking you're. the one that needs to be rescued. You. know you're all bloody from head to toe. and torn up and everything. But anyway,

um I managed to get all of them out of. the aircraft and move them to a safe. space. Um so if it exploded, you know, it wasn't going to get them. So then I. had to go there was a SOG team that the. initial helicopter had went out to try. to uh pick some of the members up. So I. went to where they were and I heard. I heard American voice speaking kind of. loud. So at that point I thought, well,

they must not be captured. I mean, there's an American talking and I got a. little closer and I could see the uh the. one zero, the team leader. So I yelled at him and, you know, told. him I was I was coming in not to shoot. Tell his people not to shoot. He said, "Come on in.". Um, I kept with the, if I back up a minute, I kept telling the pilot of the other.

crew, I said, "I'm going to get you out. You just need to do what I tell you. I. will come back and get you. Don't move. from where you are right now." I go up. to the team. So I go in and there's a an. Air Force lieutenant colonel standing. there talking to the team leader telling. the team leader that he's in charge of. the operation now. He's the senior man. on the ground and he's in charge.

So when I got there and heard him saying. that I told I said. you're not in charge, you're on the. ground now. I'm the senior ground. commander and I'm in charge. He said, "You're a lieutenant and you. are not in charge.". And I said, "You need to look around.". Cuz all of a sudden, all the indage. had turned their weapons toward him.

They had figured out what was going on. And I said, "They are about to make you. disappear, and your body is never going. to be found. You need to be quiet and do what I tell. you.". So, he quietened down. I went down and got the the two guys off. the jungle penetrator, brought them up, um used the radio, call for for help, um.

and told them I needed uh explosives. So, a Marine CH46 came out, dropped 50. lb blocks of C4 and some fuses and fuse. lighters, blasting caps. So I blew a big. several trees down to create a hole in. the canopy. Got some gunships out. Started working the gunships and. eventually I got everybody up the jungle.

penetrator into the CH46. I got up, went up last, and uh we flew. away. So. >> Holy [ __ ]. >> So that was. >> You had a premonition. >> Yeah. And. that was that was a long day. I get back. to camp and the camp commander is in. there with some aviation colonel. Um.

and they're upset about something. And I I said, "I'm back." And he's he. aviation guy said, "You didn't get. everybody.". I said, "I got everybody that was there. You didn't get the crew chief from the. CH34. What crew chief? I got everybody that. you know the pilot said was his. said you didn't get the crew chief.

You got to go back out and get him. The pilot didn't tell me that the crew. chief on his helicopter was missing. The Air Force guys still didn't tell me. Oh god. You know, I'm still I'm bleeding like a. stuck pig. And I said, "You need to go. back out and get him. I need to get my hands treated first and. then, you know,

I'll I'll go back out there." But. uh we decided to wait and you know let. me take some of my new team and go out. there the next morning and get him. But. came a storm that night. It was 2 days. before I could go back out there. But I. took my new team and went back out. Um. went to the helicopter where the the. body was supposed to be. And sure. enough, with all the rain, you could see. his femur sticking up out of the.

wreckage on the ground. Uh, plus all the. flies and the smell and everything. We. got him. I was also supposed to blow up the the. Huey medevac. So, I got the rest of the C4 that I had. left out there. Um, in inside the the. aircraft, packing the C4. and here come the NVA again. So, now I'm. inside. The bullets are starting to come.

in cuz they realize I was in the. helicopter doing something. And, you. know, they're hitting it's hitting the. C4, but you know, it's not going to. bother the C4. I'm safe until I put the blasting cap. in, you know. So, got everything ready. and decided, okay, this is it. Stick the. blasting caps in, set the two fuse. igniters on, jumped out, and managed to. climb up the ridge. I had put the team.

up on this bridge up above the. helicopter. And as I was going up the bank, the NVA. assaulted the helicopter. They thought I was still in there. I got up on top. I'm looking down and. think they're standing next to the. helicopter with the time fuse burning. Told my guys to get down. 40 lb of C4.

Fortunately, it was down in that ridge. So most of the blast went linearly, you. know, down the ravine and then the rest. of it went straight up, but it still. hurt, you know, the blast and then the. rest of the NVA attacked. We had a big. firefight for hour or so. and finally we managed to withdraw using. the gunships and the stuff. Then it. started pouring rain. We stayed out.

there another two days. We came back in. and. then the aviation guy flipped out. because I blew the helicopter up. I. said, "You told me to do it.". I told you the story. I didn't tell you. to blow it up. I said, "Well, it's in a million little. pieces along with body parts right now.". So, anyway, >> wow. I I know that was a long story, but.

I did get to go out that one time. initially by myself and do some things. >> Holy [ __ ]. >> When I told when I first told the um the. medevac pilot, I said, I he said, "Where's the rest of you?" And I said, "It's me. I'm your rescue team." "Yeah, but where are the rest of you?" I said, "It's just me. You know, just just do what I tell you. I get you out of here. We can do this. And they were just really disappointed.

There's one guy came in here to get us. >> Jeez. >> So anyway, I could have done, you know, some other. missions where I didn't have to fight. out there, you know, if I'd gone in. alone. >> Did you like the fighting? I I mean it it was exciting, but I I I didn't have a problem with.

going in and not fighting if I could. accomplish the mission. I I thought we had missions on a fairly. regular basis. They came up. They didn't. need a team. We just needed somebody to sneak around. out there, gather the information we. needed, and come out. >> [ __ ]. Work boots that are as comfy as. sneakers. I didn't think it was possible. either until I found Brunt work boots. They're like I'm walking on a cloud.

right out of the box, and they deliver. the protection and durability you need. on the job site. The bestselling Marin. and Omen work boots from Brunt check. every box. They're lightweight, slip and. oil resistant, heat resistant, electrical hazard rated, and so much. more. Join over 500,000 other Brunt boot. warers. And Brunt offers a full range of. high-performance gear built for tough. jobs. From heavyduty work pants to. weatherresistant jackets, Brunt designs.

reliable work wear to keep you protected. in any condition. Brunt didn't just make. a durable work boot. They reinvented. comfort for the hardest workers out. there. For a limited time, our listeners. get $10 off at Brunt by using code SRS. at checkout. Just head to. bruntworkware.com and use code SRS and. you're all set. Even better, Brunt lets. you try all their products on the job. After you purchase, they'll ask you. where you heard about them. Please. support our show and tell them we sent.

you. You know what? Everybody dreads the. inbox. I've gone through thousands and. thousands of emails and I hear you loud. and clear. So, we're making it official. The Vigilance Elite store is fully. stocked. We're dropping new gear more. often. Some limited edition, some. permanent staples. We've got hats, TE's, and even Vigilance Elite tumblers. And.

yes, before you ask, I'm still booze. free. It's been 3 and 1/2 years. Relax. It's just water. If you were one of those emails, consider this your green light. Head. over to shaunryshow.com. and stock up. If you're like me, health and wellness. is extremely important to you. But how. do you know who to trust when it comes. to the supplement industry? We have all.

these companies. They pop up every other. day. They're all selling snake oil. How. do you know who to trust? Well, here's. the most important question. Who wants to take the biggest, most. massive [ __ ] of your entire life? Bubs. is a company I've used and trusted for a. long time. They make great products, have rigorous quality standards, and. they are a longtime supporter of this.

show. And they have the recipe. for the biggest [ __ ]. of your entire life. I love their collagen peptides. This. isn't just any collagen. It is a. benchmark of trust and performance. It's crafted with integrity and backed. by NSF for sports certification, giving. you their assurance of its purity and.

potency. Bub's collagen peptides help. support your joints, help enhance. recovery, and help revitalize your hair. and skin. And yes, it will help you stay. regular. Bubs was founded in honor of. Navy Seal Glenn Bub Dhy. And every. product supports veterans with 10% of. all profits going to help military men. and women transition back into civilian. life. And now for the recipe for the.

biggest and best [ __ ] of your entire. life. Bubs collagen peptides mixed with. Bubs apple cider vinegar gummies and you. have a recipe for success every day. Bub's Collagen Peptides. Bubs apple cider vinegar gummies. Ready. to upgrade your life? Visit. bubsnaturals.com today and use promo. code shan for 20% off your order.

bubsnaturals.com/shan. >> Did the killing bother you? >> No. And I think what happened. was on the very first mission, you know, I kept saying to myself, it's okay. I mean, this is war. They're. bad guys. They're going to kill me if I. don't kill them. And it's okay to kill. them. It's okay to shoot at them. You.

know, I got to remember that. And I kept. saying that over and over is I I have to. do this. It's okay. And when that first. one jumped up and shot at me and then, you know, I didn't think about that. anymore. I just started, you know, defending and shooting back. >> Did the killing ever affect you as time. went on? >> Yeah. >> How so? >> I you know, just the fact that you had.

to do it and. If if you're over there at the wall and. you're shooting at me, that doesn't bother me. I can, you know, shooting back at you doesn't bother me. If you're standing there and you're not. shooting at me to just take you out. without you realizing it, um like some of the trackers that I did. with the 22.

um you know that I had to think more. about you know particularly afterwards. um that I would just do that. Um. there also. sometimes where. um. I had to take people out really up close. that kar that you have over there. Um, I found I started carrying that and.

I found. really close quarters stuff. You know, that was quick and easy. You. know, it's it's about as up close and. personal as you can get. Um, >> how would you do that. >> in through the in through the side of. the neck? If you go in straight in right. there and go out, you'll get the.

juggler, you'll get the corateed, and. it's over. It's over in a minute. I mean, it's. it's unreal how fast you bleed out like. that. And you can do that. quietly. And. I think I mentioned to you before that. those are some of the things that I talk. to special ops guys about. Not I won't.

talk to, you know, law enforcement about. that. But with the special ops guys, if. you have to do things quietly, you don't. have night vision, you you don't have. all your electronics, there are ways to get right up next to. someone. And if you need to do it quietly. >> How many times do you think you had to. do that? >> Four or five.

And just. Yeah. And you know, sometimes it's quiet, sometimes it's not. First time I did it, you know, I was just, you know, fighting for my. life and, you know, I was about to lose, but I needed to. >> How are you about to lose?

>> Because a friend of his showed up. I. mean, I'm on the ground with this guy. Um, and his friend showed up and saw us down. there and. realized that, you know, what was going. on, that I was a bad guy and and uh had. his friend. So, I had to deal with his friend and. then, you know, take care of him. I had. to shoot him. But just there were a few.

times where I just got caught up in a. I'm going to take a prisoner. I'm going. to get this guy and take him back in and. for whatever reason wasn't able to do. it. So. >> [ __ ]. Yeah, I I changed to the KBAR. I don't know about midways, I guess.

I tried the SOG knife. I just for me it. was it just felt too small. If I cuz I I. I wanted something that if I wanted to. cut down a you know a limb for a pole or. to do something with I wanted to have. enough weight that I could hack through. it or a piece of cane. Um, but I also. wanted something big and strong enough. that if I pushed it hard, it was going. to go uh particularly, you know, when. you get around the soft tissue in the.

neck and it goes fast. And and a KBAR. with a big enough blade uh that when it. goes in, it's hard to miss one of the. arteries in there. You could get in quickly. But I am a nice guy. But sometimes. you have to do things.

Does that stick with you? >> Yes. Yeah. I There are some things that you. just you can't unsee, you can't undo, you can't get rid of. you can you can. start to you deal with it. Um, but it's. so far it's always been there. and it's not where I like to spend a lot. of time.

When we were talking to John about you. before the interview, he had mentioned. that your only regret was not closing. your mouth when you killed people up. close. Well, I think. I think what happens or happened um was. I became so focused on what I was doing. I mean, it's life or death. It's a. fraction of a second here. You got to do.

something. and I was so focused on. um. doing the termination thing. uh. that for some reason my mouth would be. open. I don't know if I was talking. about their ancestors or what, but um if. you're using a cable bar, you're you're. and you're up that close, you're going. to get hit with a rush of of blood. And.

if you got your mouth open, you you're going to get a mouthful of. blood. Um, there were at least. two or three occasions where uh I put a. five or six round burst into somebody's. face right up close to them. When I'm. right there with them and you know their. head just explode, brain matter, tissue, bone, everything's.

going to hit you. you're going to be. covered with it. And and the blood, if. you got your mouth open, it's going into. your mouth, too. And I've had, you know, that happen. on a few occasions because I didn't have. my mouth closed. But. [ __ ]. >> Yeah. There are not a lot of people out there. that have that experience.

>> Most people probably smarter than me. They they didn't get themselves into. that situation. You know, >> when you're looking at taking somebody. out that close and you're thinking about. it, I mean, how the hell do you get that. [ __ ] close to him. and think about it exactly what you're. going to do? >> Yeah. Well, the opportunity, you know, presents. itself. It's it's not in most cases.

is not that that's what I start out to. do. Unless unless it's dark and I'm. sneaking up on you because I need to. take you out um without making any. noise. Um, then I'm I'm thinking mostly. about how do I get from where I am to. where you are without you knowing I'm. coming and knowing that I'm there. And you know the. what I'm trying to do is get from here.

over there. and now I'm next to you. You don't know. I'm next to you and. you're gonna feel. a sting. on the side of your neck. You're going. to feel warm blood go out and. everything's going to fade to black. and your knees are going to start to. crumple and I'll catch you as you're. going down so you don't make noise. But.

it's over very quickly. But I'm spending. most of my energy and thought process. about how do I get to you? I've got to get over there without you. knowing that I'm there if I'm going to. do something like that and be quiet and. not discovered. So, there are things that I'm going to. do depending on the terrain. I may do a. distraction. And I may toss something. over in another direction for you to.

hear just to redirect your attention for. a second while I can get closer to you. Um, depends on how much I know about. what the terrain's like. Is it raining? Has it been raining? I mean, if it's. raining, I'm going to be all over you. You, you know, I don't have to work hard. to get close to you. So, if it's not raining and everything's. really quiet, I have to be very careful.

cuz I can't see the ground and I'm going. to step on something. twig's going to break or something and. you're going to hear it. And. one thing is to if I've got a pebble, if. I've got something that if I do break a. twig here, I can launch that little. pebble off to the other side of you over. there. So you hear that louder than you. heard this and now you you will turn. that way and that gives me a chance to.

get closer. >> Did you come up with that? >> You are a [ __ ] master. >> in that case. Right. some my friends. >> How can I argue that? >> But you know, I it just. is still really on topic, but. but how you walk um. typically we put our heels down first. and then the rest of the foot comes.

down. Uh, but what I had read about. decades ago was that American Indians. slipping up on their prey, whether it. was another Indian tribe or animal, whatever, is that they went toe first. If I go this way and I step on a trig, a. twig, it's like there's a little amplifier.

there and it's throwing the sound out in. that direction. If I step on it and. break it with my toe, the sound's coming. back this way, so you don't hear it as. much. So, I used to have my my little. guys. toe down, toe first, toe first. Let's. practice that. Toe first, and you'll be. quieter. Uh I. I had a thing that I call invisibility. I used that hand signal. If I did that,

go invisible. Be invisible right now. Be. invisible. Nobody can hear you. Nobody. can smell you. Nobody can uh you know. anything about where you are. Change how. you walk. And we started changing how we. move through the woods. I don't know if you hunt deer or not, but. if if you watch a deer, he's the hardest to see when he's coming. directly at you until he stops. And when.

he stops, what he he screws up with is. he starts looking right and left. And. when he starts moving his head, you'll. see it cuz the different color in the. skin and there any movement like that, you'll see horizontal movement is much. easier to see than vertical movement. So. instead of the pointman. walking through the jungle, you know, moving his weapon and twisting his body.

back and forth so he thinks he's going. to be ready to fire. Um, you know, if he. encounters somebody that's just giving. him away. Don't move the weapon. Scan your your. eyes are not you won't see him the eyes. move. Keep your weapon here because you. don't know if he's going to be over. there or over here. So if you could do. it like this now he's but he's actually. over there. By the time you can get back. around to him you're dead.

>> Split the distance. >> So So teaching teaching them how not. only for the point man to do that move. the whole team. straight. You start zigzagging. that you're easy to see as you're. coming. I started teaching them all. kinds of invisibility. No soap, nothing that you can smell for. the last 3 days before we go out.

I don't want them to smell us when we're. out. They'll smell the soap cuz they're. not used to soap and soap just stands. out when you go out there. In fact, I. only got to the point where I started. making them eat North Vietnamese type. food. because I told them if if we're out. there and we're out there four or five. days, eventually you're going to have to. poop. And when you poop, I want it to. smell like NVA poop. And if they find it, I want them to say,

"Oh, that's that's one of us.". sweat. My my father told me when I was a little. kid one time there's a a a dog strange. dog and the dog was growling at me. and you know my father was went over and. petted him and I now it's just kid I's.

growling at me and he's not growling at. you and my father said he knows you're. afraid of him. How does he know that? He he just does. He knows you're afraid of him and he's. intimidating you. He knows I'm not. afraid of him. It took me, you know, a couple of decades to figure. out what was going on. When you all sweat is not the same. You go out and do some exercise or it's.

hot in here and you sweat. Yeah, sweat. smells. If you sweat because of fear, fear sweat. smells very different. It's much. stronger and it smells different. So if you're laying in an ambush site. waiting to ambush me and you know when. you ambush a SOG team, those jokers are. coming after you. You're laying there. sweating with fear sweat. I'll smell.

you. On more than one occasion, I've. stopped the team. stop. You know, they're there. I can smell them laying up there in the. woods. I can smell the sweat. Dogs can smell the difference between. fear sweat and normal sweat. So, they. it's easy for them to tell that you're. afraid of. So, um. they want you to relax. I want you to.

your poop to smell like NBA poop. I. don't want any soap or anything like. that on you that people can that the NVA. can smell. So that's all part of being. invisible. Jump up and down. Nothing. should make a sound on you when you jump. up and down. You should have nothing on. you. Uh that's bright. All the the. buckles and metal things on your harness. need to be painted black or wrapped in. black friction tape. Um so they don't.

shine. Uh, you need to be camouflaged. All the stuff counts. Um, take pictures. of them and say, "Look, what does this. look like? That looks like Ben. laying on the ground." Cuz you can see. all the buckles on him. Or you can see he's got two yellow. smokes on him. The bottom of the yellow. smoke is what color is yellow and it's. got a a kind of a a light white band. around around the thing. You can't have. that. It makes you show up.

and how you walk, uh, how you approach. people. It's all part of being invisible. human in the daylight and ways to do. that. maybe giving you more than you want to. know. But. >> you know, something I didn't say at the. beginning is the Vietnam generation is. what inspired me to go into the SEAL.

teams. And hearing you talk, I'm just. realizing so many of our TTPs and SOPs. and all that kind of stuff came came. from from you guys. pretty surreal for me. >> I think a. a lot of it did came, you know, from SOG. guys, but because of the intensity of. the missions and where we were going if.

you're going to survive, there were. things you had to do and we learned. things. You know, I I felt stupid. Um, when I. realized that some of the people who. came after me in 70. started using. the earplugs that we use on the range. when they'd get on a helicopter. because you ride on a helicopter, unprotected ears, it'll be 2 hours plus.

when you get off of that thing before. you get your full hearing back. So you. you do a security stop and you're out. there trying to listen and see if you. hear anybody moving. You can't hear yet. And I I discovered that for me um when. uh I saw a a headset hanging in the. helicopter. We were on the way out. I. saw a headset and I asked the crew. chief, "Can I use that?" And he said,

"Sure." So I got the headset. I put it. on and discovered. I I used to watch the door gunners. They're sitting there and we're going. out and their heads bouncing up and down. and I I thought, "Wow, it's rough riding. on those outside where the door gunners. are." I put that headset on and I. thought he he's listening to Credence. Clearwater Revival. You know, their head. is moving with the beat of a stupid the.

pilots have got the the radio station. on. I mean, I didn't know that. And then then I I realized that when I. got off the helicopter, I could still. hear. But later on, some guys realize just pop. the earplugs in before you get on the. aircraft. when you get off, pop them out, put them. in your pocket, you can hear.

So, there are a lot of things like that. that people will discover. You know, kind of irritated me that I. didn't think of something that simple, that obvious. But there are a lot of things you can. do. >> Did you have any. personal premission rituals or anything. that you would do before you go out on. an op? Some guys pray, some guys write a. letter, some guys listen to music, some. guys I used to watch this video of.

terrorists. stripping gear out of the guys from. Rudwings. They would video it. They. would video. stripping an RKIA of their rifles, their. helmet, their night vision, their IDs, their magazines, everything. I used to watch that before every op. Did you do anything? >> Um, some of mine was mental. Um.

I. and I'll just start with once I got on. the aircraft while we're waiting to take. off. Um. you know I'd always say a prayer. I and let me preface this with. I can't carry a tune in a bucket. you. know, singing that you would not you'd. think it was a dying camp in a hell.

storm or something if I tried to sing. Um, but mentally, you know, I can't, you. know, so I would always do Amazing Grace. and uh and then, you know, I may mix. some other little things in with it as. as then I transition over to. the mission focus. What do I have to do when the countdown. starts? What do I have to do? What am I. looking for? Um what's the plan? Who's.

going going first? Which way are you. going? What do I need to send do with the team? Uh I'm reviewing the plan. Uh then I may. throw a little more Amazing Grace in. there just before we get there. And then then it's back to um. box breathing. So, by the time I'm by the time I get out on. the skid, uh I've already been doing it.

for a while, but doing the box breathing. um because that will uh relax your. arteries. It has an impact on you. Uh. vag nerve, it calms you down. Uh because. they know that when we get there, if we if we engage right away, all of. that stuff's coming at me. And I'm. standing out on a skid because I'm. getting ready to jump off and I've got. to think about the other things that.

we're going to do, not those bullets. coming at me. But the bullets, at least. to me, bullets can be a real distractor. notice you hear those things cracking by. you, um it can distract you from what. you're supposed to do and you I had to. find a way to turn loose of the bullets. and see what's going on, see the battle. space, know what I needed to change, make sure I was going to tell you guys. what the difference was. I was going to.

give you the signals. Um, and same, you. know, on the ground once you make. contact. The disadvantage we had was then you. couldn't hear. Car 15 so loud. AK-47s. are so loud and you're so close to each. other. And I'm you're there and I'm. trying to tell you go left. You can't. hear what I'm saying. Not that you even this close with with. all the car 15s and everything firing. grenades going off, rockets coming at.

you, you know, and and I'm I'm horning, you know, I'm I'm having to do, you. know, hand signals and stuff to get. people to move. And then once you. dropped down out of sight. and then you know I'm trying to remember. you went there, he went there, he went. over there and telling all my people. this if you get hit. and I'd make them practice. If you get. hit,

start yelling hit. I need to know someone's hit. I need to. know a general direction of where they. are. If you're hit, I will come get you, but I need to know. the vicinity to look for when I come. over there. So, start yelling hit. I. know you're alive. I And I can. eventually find where you are and I will. get you. But if you don't yell, I don't.

know where you went down. I don't know. that you've even been hit. So, there are. things like that. just making them yell, "Hit, hit, hit," cuz they could say that. close enough that I could understand it. and and loud and just practicing those. made them. more confident. that if something happened to them that. I would get him and and they saw it on.

the different occasions where you know I. snatched somebody up and I made sure we. got him on the helicopter and you know. the word spreads. you know Thompson might be a nutcase but. he'll put you on the helicopter. anyway. How many friends did you lose over. there? >> I have a list of 34. >> 34.

And. I didn't lose, you know, Bargewell over. there. Um, but I put him on the list. when he passed away a few years ago, seven years ago. You know, the reason I'm asking is. there's a lot of people that struggle. with lost friends in combat.

>> And that that's not how many people were. killed. >> That was just the guys I knew. and we. were either on the same team together or. we knew like Tilt, you know, Tilt would. have been on my list, you know, because. I I knew him well. Lynn Black would have. been on my list. So, u it's not a list. you want to be on. Um, obviously, but it. was there were a lot of other people who. were killed. I just didn't know them. >> How did you compartmentalize that in the.

middle of it? >> Difficult. um. you know trying to trying to realize. that. um. I couldn't do anything about it. They. were gone. I could remember them. Could. make sure, you know, they wasn't. forgotten. Um I couldn't bring them. back. Um in some cases I could, you know, contact their family, you know, later.

Um. it it's just very difficult and. um. I think. I think in at times in some cases. it probably influenced my thinking of. just let me go by myself. and that way I don't have to worry about.

losing you. >> Makes sense. >> And in fact, you know, if you read the. book, when you get in there, you'll see. that, you know, I would keep having that. discussion uh with Meadows where I. wanted to go alone. you know, I I would you use when when he. would just deny that, I'd finally come. back and say, "Well, um,

at least I I'll just be the only. American on the team. I'll take the. little guys. I'll be the only American. Don't put another American on the team. with me, you know." So, he he would do that most. of the time. Um, and I think some of that was influenced. by, you know, I don't I don't want to lose. you. >> Jeez.

>> So, it's just so many. And John and I. have had this um. conversation, you know, recently is it's. almost like. now today it's almost like being back in. talk. >> How so? >> Every day there's um. every every day. um there's a list that comes out on the.

phone. So we we have a a lady Bonnie Cooper who. worked for the uh. special ops association. uh in various ways particularly the. website but she monitors. um SF and particularly sod people um. obituaries. and. I've told her before honey take a break.

you know try not to let so many people. go away like that. I mean, it it's like. every few days you're seeing somebody's. name, you know, cuz we're in that age. group now. >> No, I mean, I can relate with us. It's. suicide. >> Yeah. And you know then. you know it's. I can I think I can understand why they.

do it, what they what's going on. Um. but you I mean I got people I talk to. every day. Um. and you know what I'm trying to do is. prevent that. >> I mean you have a PhD in psychology. it. what? Everybody's trying to get to the. bottom of this. And I've had so many. friends that have killed themselves. I I. just I I can't even count them all. I. quit counting,

you know. I think And you know about the. struggles with addictions and booze and. opiates and. everything, you know, and. I think it just takes one second. It. does, >> you know, and. >> and there there, you know, there's there. are some decisions. that you can't take back. I I think about it sometimes and share. sometimes, you know, when I was standing. on the hill the skid of the helicopter.

holding on to that that rope. Once I stepped off, that decision was made and there's no. changing it. I was on the rope and on my. way down, you know, that there was no. opportunity to say, "Well, take I don't. think I want to do this.". Uh, and. that decision to pull the trigger, do do. whatever it is that you're going to do. Um, once you make it and and and you can.

make it very fast. I mean, I. you know, I I talked to uh a guy who had. decided. this is it. I'm going to hang myself. And he went in his bedroom and. tied a rope up, climbed up on a stool, and was getting ready to put the noose.

around his neck. And his little daughter walked in. What. are you doing, Dad? And. you know, he came back down. If she had. have been a few seconds later. and it. and it's hard to tell sometimes where. people are. They can they can change into that mode. and make that decision so quickly.

How do you honor your friends that have. been killed. >> or taken their own life? >> Well, for 50 years or so, um I I run uh. in their memory. Well, when I was when I was active doing. Iron Man, I would, you know, today swim. is for these people, the runs for this, the bikes for that. Um, and still do. that uh on the the what I call the angel.

vers. of their death. So on on that day, you know, we do the the names of all the. people and and then um I let that person. whoever's angel vers is I let them lead. the run. and u.

you know so and I post it. I put it out on social media. so that you know people remember. and. been doing that and you'll see in the. back of the book and in the book you'll. see every month uh there's a section in. there. the guys of those 34 here are the ones. that died this month that of you know my.

friends and even though there are a lot. of other people that that died I I've. got them in there. Uh at the end, well, every day uh when when I post, I've got. the list of the 34. So, I post all of. them, post the pictures, uh and then. highlight the one that died that day. And some with people, sometimes it's.

three or four that died that day. Maybe. the whole team got wiped out. And um you know their their parents are. gone. I mean your parents would be overund 100. years old you know so they're not there. but you know they they still have you. know brothers, sisters, wives, whatever. some of them. Um, I get a message every. once in a while, but I also have um a.

group of. uh, you know, Afghan and and you know. that that whole group of people. I've. got about 35. of those. So, I I interact with uh their. families, but you know, I post them on. the days that they died. So, I mean, as a. as a Saga operator who's been through.

this a long time ago and and and have. navigated your way through it up to this. point, what advice do you have for my. generation who's dealing with this? How. do you move past it? >> Some of it is I tried to put some. principles, SOG principles in in the. book. um the moving forward. I mean, in. the book, it's related initially to. combat, but it's still combat when.

you're not in combat. Things happen. Um. you got to keep moving forward. You got. to do it. And. once you stop, all kind of things happen. and and moving forward is moving forward. mentally as well as physically. Um, and like like old guys like John, you. know, he's an old guy. Um, we have to uh.

kind of watch each other and take care. of each other and contact. And I was. talking to a a teammate of mine um. earlier this week. and he was telling me he's afraid to. call people now. You know, our SAG guys. He said, "I'm afraid to call him. I'm afraid they want out, sir. I'm. afraid I'm going to get a family member. or something and then and they're going. to tell me, you know, he's gone.".

Uh but you got to keep you got to keep. checking you. keep keep moving forward. and keep remember in the book it talks. about um. you know people die people die twice. The first time they die is when their. heart chs. Uh the second time they die is when. people stop saying their name.

So. that's why I use the the list. I go down. that list and say it their families and. then particularly you know the your. group. Um their families are still. alive, their parents are still around. Um. and you know I get emails from them all. the time. saying thank you. you know,

so. it's not easy, but applying some of. those principles like that and just. you got to you can't bring them back. you got to keep moving forward. And then and sometimes you think about. um like barge well for example. um. remembering that.

all of God's angels. don't sing in the choir. Some of them are warriors. I figure I figure Bargewell worked. himself up pretty high into the warrior. group. So, you know, so some of us are going to end. up there, I think. And you know, that's. good. Um, and you know, at some point, you know, most of us will see each other again,

hopefully in the right place. So, >> I'm with you. if we haven't talked about. it yet, what what mission in Saab. sticks out more than all the rest of. them. for me or mission I went on? Um. the a real contender for that would be.

um the one where had the woman on the. radio. Um. the the gunfight went on so long almost. 24 hours. and just one thing after another. I. mean, in. in that mission after, you know, saw the. lights coming, the weather had socked us in. I couldn't. get air support in. Um, so we had to use.

something called combat uh sky spots. You know, an F4 is coming by. He's going. to he's going to drop a a a bomb just. based on the radar saying you're in the. right place. and you know so working with that and. you know the first one he dropped was. like 3,000 meters off and and but you. know we worked so we had to work through. all of that um and then you know we were.

in contact. daylight and we're in contact and I I. saw a um in the book I just call it the. grim reaper coming in you know think the. devil showed up and said, "Now I'm coming for you." Um, so some. discussion back and forth like that. Um, and got to the point where we were being.

overrun and you know why I called a com. um, you know, CBU in right on top of our. position. I just said. if if you guys are going to overrun us, I'm going to take as many of you with it. with us as I can. So I had CVY find a. plane that that had CBU. And. so we're in this full circle of this. size.

you know, a canister of CVUs has like uh. 250, you know, grenades in it with explosives in it. that come raining down. So, out of the 250, 15 of them landed either inside this. perimeter. or just outside. 15 of them.

and you know, explosions everywhere, people screaming, all this kind of. stuff. And I saw some of them hit. And I. thought. it hit, but I didn't hear it explode. I. must be dead. I'm still seeing stuff, but I must be dead. And then I realized, yeah, I'm not dead. They didn't go off. Wow.

Oh, I obviously got some help from above. You You just You can't You can't have 15. duds all been in the same place at the. same time. >> Holy [ __ ]. >> And not go. You just can't do that. I. mean, that. that's not going to happen, you know, without some divine intervention. So, um, the old the old, uh, image came back.

again and. he's just shaking his head and walking. off into the vegetation. It was like, I thought I would get you, but I didn't. Um, we go, we're trying to fight our way. down. We get ambushed trying to go. toward the LZ. We managed to survive. that and get through it. We got down to. the extraction LZ and my point man, you. know, stopped us. I went up to see why.

he stopped us and he looked at me and he. said, "Bomb, what. bomb?". And I looked out at the LZ. Over on the left side of it, sticking up. out of the mud, was a 500 pound bomb, unexloded. That That's the one. that we didn't hear explode last night.

when we were trying to adjust them. It. went into the to our landing zone. Now, there's a 500 lb bomb sitting there. That's the only place we can get out. The NVA don't know it's there, and we're. going to be in a firefight with them. And if somebody hits it, it's going to. take all of us out and whatever aircraft. we're coming in to get us. So, we got a. real problem here to deal with that. So, I got, you know, hold Cubby and had.

him put the word out, don't put don't. put any ordinance on that side of the LZ. when you're trying to help us. Um, and so finally we're bringing the. aircraft in. I'm out. I'm having to. stand up with a VSS17 paddle. Um, bringing the aircraft in, trying to get. them to where I wanted. I got down to. the last aircraft. and I'm trying to to throw the last. people up there and that's where I heard.

the the loud drop. Everything went. silent and there's, you know, booming. voice that says drop. I just got to my knees and when I did a. stream of machine gun bullets, RPG. bullets came across and cut a hole that. big side of the helicopter. >> She know where I was. So, >> another premonition. >> Oh, I said, "Yep, I'm I'm getting a lot.

of help to try to get me out of this.". And uh so finally. got the last threw the last guy up on a. helicopter and off we went. Thought, man, that was a a a long mission. >> As a team leader, when you're calling. Air Power in on yourself to take you and. as many of them as you possibly can, is. that a team decision or is that a. personal decision?

In my case, you know, I I told Bruce and. I who was acting as my assistant, I told. him, the other American, this is what. I'm doing cuz I mean, they're coming. across us. I mean, we got a few few. seconds to make a decision. Get down. Get all the team members down cuz it's. coming. And I told Cubby, you make have. them make one pass. Put the CBU on top of us. If I don't.

come right back up on on the radio, then have him make the second pass. But listen for me, because if I come. back up saying I'm still here, he's. going, "Don't let him put another one on. us." So, we didn't have to use the. second one. >> Did you support. Hamburger Hill? No, >> no.

>> Oh. Oh, I No, I'm I'm thinking support. in another way. Yes. There was um there. was an NBA division that was being moved. around that they were going to bring up. there and just crush the 101st. And I was assigned a mission to go find. them and stop them. So. I figure with six people, how hard can. it be to find 10,000 people in a group?

So surely I could find them, but they didn't cooperate. Well, that's. when they shot the helicopter down. I. was in broke my back. Um, some ribs. and one of my guys got uh in my. helicopter shot through the thigh. I got them and finally got them into a.

bomb crater. and. spent most of the day there. fighting and putting in air strikes and. eventually got out and they said you got. to go back tomorrow morning. We don't have. we don't have the division what's left. of the division which we figure was down. to about 7,000. We don't have them pinpointed enough for. the B-52 strike. We need you to go back. in and get some more data. Um.

they want they they put pistol belts. around me with a piece of wood behind it. and a little pad. Um I didn't carry my. rucks sack cuz I couldn't I couldn't. lift any weight like that and went back. out there. Um, but got the coordinates, gave it to the B-52s that evening and. they came in and wiped the rest of them.

out and. um. they they dropped 66500. lb bombs in that little rectangle I gave. them. Oh, when um we mentioned my. grandson. grandson-in-law. uh at lunch,

his father's no other his mother's. father flew B-52s in Vietnam. Interesting guy to talk to. And at one. point we we thought we had pinpointed. the date uh that he might have actually. flown that mission that came in and took. these guys out, but he he was flying a. different mission. But u. that would have been cool.

>> Wow. What was the final op? the final one. there. Uh. it came right after shortly after that. Um that one we were talking about the. um. there was a little one we went and.

knocked out a underwater bridge. They couldn't figure out how they kept. getting the trucks. on down the trail. They were going off. the trail under the canopy and they had. built a bridge that was just below the. water. So you you couldn't see it. They. were driving across it and coming back. on the road, you know, cuz we and they. still still work on this bridge that you. could see. But we keep bombing that, but.

somehow they were still getting across. So we went out, we took that out, dropped a bridge, another on a different. mission right in there. Um, I, you know, the one where we were going. to drop the big bridge, I had to I had to crawl on my hands and. knees across an open field to get to. where I could really see the supports. and things on the bridge. There was a.

bush out in the center of the field. about that high. So if I peaked my head. up a little bit in the grass, I could. see the bush. So I used that to. navigate, crawled under it, uh went. about 10 m and then caught on fire. That bush was covered with big fire ants. and they got all over. I had to strip. out there in the middle of the field, you know, thinking how many NBA are on.

that bridge are going to go across that. bridge when I'm laying out here almost. neaked, you know, and my team, they. don't know what's going on. They're back. there in the edge of the wood line. thinking, "What is he doing? He's taking. his clothes off out there in the middle. of the field.". Oh, I mean, I almost died from that. >> Okay. >> I mean, cuz we didn't, you know, we. didn't care. antihistamine with us. I I. was so loaded with all their venom, man.

Yeah, there were there's two or three. short ones like that toward the end and. then, you know, the commander plucked me out. and they plucked you out. >> Pull me pull me off the team and say, "I'm going to move you into operations. here for a while." So. >> did you want to do that? >> No. And I didn't want to work for him. either. So. So I because I had my plan was to extend.

for 6 months. But after working for him for a while, I. decided no, I'm not going to do that. I'll go ahead rotate back to the States. you know, give him six months or so to go away. and and then I'll come back and have a. new commander. polish my skills up for six or eight. months and then come back and be better.

So, but then I didn't get a chance to. come back either. So, >> did you get addicted to the adrenaline, the killing? >> Oh, yeah. >> The combat? >> Yes. How did you? >> And that's a I mean that's a real issue. because that happens to special ops. guys. You get so addicted. to the adrenaline. finding something else that'll give you. the adrenaline rush that's not maybe not. quite as dangerous. Um,

in my case, one of the things was, um, you know, freef fall halo, particularly if you. can burn it on down a little closer than. what you're supposed to do. And I was I was in a situation where, you know, I put the Halo team together. I was the. leader of the Halo team. And you know,

I could do just about anything I wanted. to. So I could I could look at the. terrain and and see this little tiny. opening on a ridge line uh there in the. mountains and say, "H, I wonder if I. could hit that at 2:00 in the morning. and land right in that little a little. opening. put ranger students out there.

on their back holding the flashlight up. with a red filter on it in the shape of. a T or whatever letter I wanted and see. if I can get in there. So I was doing, you know, a lot of different things like. that that would give you a rush. and and that I was also very fortunate. that you know when I when I came back. from SOG uh I went to to the Rangers.

and everybody had to have combat. experience to be there as one of the. instructors. So, you know, I had 40 guys. in the air that we were all talking with. each other and helping each other. Everybody kind of understood about. combat. They didn't know I'd been with. SOG, but still people were shooting at. them, too. So, um, so we had we had a, you know, support group there and we. were doing things that could give you.

adrenaline. adrenaline rush. So, that helped. >> Well, let's take a quick break. When we. come back, we'll talk about what it was. like coming home. >> Okay. I know everybody out there has to be. just as frustrated as I am when it comes. to the BS and the rhetoric that the. mainstream media continuously tries to. force feed us. And I also know how.

frustrating it can be to try to find. some type of a reliable news source. It's getting really hard to find the. truth and what's going on in the country. and in the world. And so one thing we've. done here at Shawn Ryan Show is we are. developing our newsletter. And the first contributor to the. newsletter that we have is a woman, former CIA targeter. Some of you may. know her as Sarah Adams, call sign. superbad. She's made two different. appearances here on the Shawn Ryan show.

and some of the stuff that she has. uncovered and. broke on this show is just absolutely. mind-blowing. And so I've asked her if she would. contribute to the newsletter and give us. a weekly intelligence brief. So it's. going to be all things terrorists, how. terrorists are coming up through the. southern border, how they're entering. the country, how they're traveling, what. these different terrorist organizations. throughout the world are up to. And. here's the best part. The newsletter is.

actually free. We're not going to spam. you. It's about one newsletter a week, maybe two if we release two shows. The. only other thing that's going to be in. there besides the intel brief is if we. have a new product or something like. that. But. like I said, it's a free CIA. intelligence brief. Sign up. Links in. the description or in the comments. We'll see you in the newsletter.

All right, Dick, we're back from the. break and you know, I'd like to document. what it was like for you, not in the military, but what was what. was it like for you coming home from. Vietnam, seeing how Americans were acting towards. veterans? And I want to cover this. I was not happy. You know, it started as. I was coming through the airport and. seeing that,

you know, people in general were not. reacting. favorably toward, you know, the soldiers coming home. Um. I think in in my case just coming. through the airport um. you know I had a had my beret on. so that was kind of like a force factor. that was just people were getting out of.

the way. They just let me through. Uh. they didn't want to get close to me. Um, and the ones that yell something were. always, you know, at at a distance. Um, but it was it was there. Um, and you like I I mentioned earlier, I. think I had friends that had been. friends at one point, but um kind of. went away.

uh because of war and and some of them. never came back in in terms of of coming. back and being a friend. I mean, they. just once they separated from me, they. just stayed that way, you know, because. I stayed in the military. So, um, I was dis disappointed with that. I think staying in the military helped. me. It did. >> because I was around obviously people.

who believed in being in the military. military. went through a lot of changes, you know, going going forward because once you. stop the draft, um then getting people in, it really. changed. the people who were coming in. Um. but the general attitude, I mean, it. still out there. When I when I got out. of the military and started the.

consulting company, I didn't tell people I'd been in the. military clients. I never mentioned the. military. >> Really? >> What the hell do you think you were. doing for the last 20 years? being a. consultant, going to school, doing. whatever, but. you know, the military just had a bad. name. And if I mentioned I'd been in the. military,

um it's interesting. One of a client. that I had for years started out with um. they flew me out to meet with the. executive team. So, I'm I'm before they. hired me. So, I'm I'm talking to him and. the the CEO. looked up at me and he said, "What are you going to tell me about how.

to be a CEO and run this? What do you. know?". and. he knew that I had been in the army uh. because he had hired somebody that knew. me um that had been in the army. Um and. he said, "You all you know how to do is. tell people what to do to yell at them. and you know I don't know how you're. going to help me out at all.".

And I said, 'Well, you have people in the organization. and when you have people in the. organization, uh there are certain difficulties and. problems that will come up just because. you have people. Doesn't matter who the. people are or what they are. Uh and I. know how to help with those types of. problems. And it's not yelling at people. It's not.

doing anything like that. not being a. dictator. Uh that's not my philosophy. I. don't believe that that's the way to be. a leader. And you know, I'm going to be. working with you to see what's going on. and help you find solutions uh that will. work with your people. So, we talked like that a little bit and. he. met with his team for about 20 minutes. and called me back in and said, "Okay,

let's get started. and I worked for him for years until. somebody else bought the company. So, but. uh I just didn't tell people. But. once 9/11 happened, yeah, tell people you're in the. military, that's a good thing. Oh, yeah. Appreciate you, sir. I mean, you're just. >> You didn't get that way until after. 9/11. >> I'm sorry. You didn't experience that.

until. >> I mean there there were people who I. knew or had known or grown up around um. older people who would say uh you know. thank you for your service and things. like that. But people who hadn't known. me before. um find out I was in the military. It. wasn't necessarily, you know, congratulations or thank you or. anything. Um, for a long time.

it was just we had a we had a bad. reputation. because you because of Vietnam. Uh, but. then, you know, because of going to the. all volunteer army, you know, that was a disaster. Um, do you want to go to jail or you want to. join the army? Oh, I'll join the army. Um, you know, I can put you in jail with the.

drugs use or you can join the army. I. I'll go in the army. And, you know, it was just different. But 9/11 all of a sudden punishment. instead of an act of service. >> Yeah. And I'm um it everybody wasn't like. that, but a a lot of the people I ran. into were and I would. you may have already asked John about.

that, but I I would just see what um. most vets say, the Vietnam vets say. When did it change? Uh, and there there are Vietnam vets out. there right now that are still angry, very angry. And if you try to tell them, you know, thank you for your service. I mean, it'll bite your head off. because they're so angry about, you. know, when you tell me that 50 years. ago.

But, you know, it's it's worked out, you. know, for me. I think I've been very. fortunate. So, >> do you carry any animosity from that? >> I hate that it that it happened. I I. think we screwed up Vietnam. royally. I think there are a lot of. things we could have done to make it. better. I don't think we as soldiers, I.

don't think we went over and did the. kinds of things that most people thought. we were doing. I don't think we were. running around killing women and babies. and doing things like I'm sure some got, you know, killed. It's war and, you. know, shrapnel and bombs and thing, bullets, they don't care if somebody. gets in the way of it is is going to hit. them. Um, and it's it's hard to have a war uh and.

not have someone, you know, killed or. wounded. >> that's innocent. >> Yeah. >> What prompted you to get your PhD in. psychology? psychology came about because. as I as I watched what was happening on. the battlefield. and trying to understand. like with with my indigenous team. leaders.

They'd been going out on so missions, you know, for two years or so and now. they're going out with me for a year and. when I leave they're going to go out. with the next team leader for a year. Why would they do that? I mean, some of these guys were 50% scar. tissue. Why would they keep going out. and getting shot up or killed uh on a. regular that we paid them, but it wasn't. enough money uh to make it, you know,

worth getting killed for or or mangled. like a lot of them did. Um, and then why. would the Americans go out, the. operators, why would they go out and do. this? Why not go to a regular unit or. why not come to SOG and and go to a. staff job. and not go across the fence? >> The addiction, >> it was dangerous to do that. Yeah. Once. once you got out there and survived it a.

time or two, Yeah. you could start to. get addicted to it. And you know, there. are cases that I talk about in the book. where I could see they were addicted to. it. And. >> how could you tell? >> Well, my my roommate, you know, we were. for the most part put in in rooms with, you know, two people to a room in the. recon company. Um and my roommate.

uh came back from a mission and he he. told me that um wow. uh they thought they were going to get. me this time. They thought they were I outsmarted. those guys and you know. so they they're not as good as they. think they are. I said, "Dennis, they are good. You know, um, and if they almost got you, you know, you you need to be careful.

You need to think about it." Um, and then he came came back to me uh. a couple of missions. Well, before he. came back a couple missions later, I. woke up, you know, in the middle of the night cuz. I just I could feel somebody looking at. me. And I woke up and and Dennis is. standing right there, lights out,

looking down at me. my car 15 hanging on the wall right next. to me. I grabbed that, you know, and I. was ready to shoot him and I I realized. it was him. Dennis, what are you doing? Said nothing. I just thinking. um and he wouldn't wouldn't talk about. it. He got back to bed, went to bed, and. then then he wanted to talk cuz he was.

getting ready to go out on another. mission. And he said, "I I don't have a good feeling about. this one.". And I said, "I thought you felt like you. were doing pretty well." He said, "There's something about this one. I. don't know what it is. I can't shake it. I just feel like I'm not coming back. from this one.". And. we chatted uh about that feeling. And I.

told him. just my thought talking to you. It's not over to it's over. And I don't know where that's coming. from. I'm just telling you. if I were you, first of all, I wouldn't. go on the mission. I would go turn it. down. I know you're not going to do. that, but that's what you should do. But. if you go, just keep in mind it's not over until. it's over.

You know, be very careful. You know, very careful, not realizing. that his assistant team leader was. talking, you know, to to my buddy. that same thing. He's saying, you know, I I think the captain is is. really good. He's a really good operator.

and team leader, but I'm scared. There's. something about this mission. I'm. scared. And so, we were having these two. separate conversations. And and Bruce. didn't know that I was talking to. Dennis. I didn't know he was he was. talking uh to the other guy. Um, and they went out. and got to they came back to finish the. mission supposedly. Um, got back to the. extraction LZ undetected.

They were waiting on the helicopter to. come get them. and all of a sudden, you know, you you. heard that um call on the radio. Um, prayer, fire, emergency, prayer, fire, emergency. you know, we're overrun. and then it goes off. Cubby can't make contact with them and. you just radio silence on their part.

So, we realize we're going to have to. send a a bright light team out there and. and this was one where I was already at. the launch site. So they changed my mission to bright. light to to go out there. But about 30. minutes after the message that we heard. that was where they were overrun. then on the emergency radio on the guard. frequency. there was a a voice.

um that came on and and saying God help. me. Please somebody help me. Uh an. American voice on the the guard. frequency. Um the CVY that was out there didn't. know um didn't know these two guys. personally. So he did he couldn't tell. if that was one of their voices or. somebody else. He couldn't tell which. one of them it might have been on the. radio. Um.

but. sent a team out. They they recovered. um two survivors of the indigenous. They got them back in and I was on. standby to go back out there to try to. find um Dennis and the one and. listening to these two guys tell what. happened uh and what they did after it. happened.

Bruce was there with me and and we were. talking it something's not right. something just doesn't sound right the. way they're telling it. Um, so when we did go in, it didn't didn't take long and I told. Bruce, I mean, we were in contact, you. know, continuous had to fight our way. in, continuous contact the whole, you. know, the time we were there, didn't get.

back out until the next day, but. continuous contact. And I told Bruce, I. said, "Nothing where we are looks like. what they described.". I mean, this just this is just not the. place where it happened. I think they were wounded. They were. scared. Um, and how far they ran, which. way they ran was just not correct. Not.

that they were intentionally, you know, doing it, but I think they were so. stressed out they just they didn't know. where they had started from and how far. they went. I said, I think we're, you. know, 2,000 mters probably away from. where it actually happened. But we were in such heavy contact. We. were in the middle of a bunker complex. Um, we couldn't really stop and do. anything about it, you know. Then.

never found them. She. were eventually declared. um presumed dead and, you know, so the families could get some. closure. Have you ever gone back to Vietnam? >> No. I've been invited a few times by people. Um.

I I probably and Bargewell went back. Um I probably should have went when he. went, you know. Um he actually went back and he found um. the interpreter that we had on the team. that we were on together. Actually found. tracked him down and found him. Um. terrible story. I mean the guy's just.

living in poverty. His family's in. poverty. uh you know the NBA put him in you know. re-education camp all those guys they. they killed them put them in. re-education camps for years took. everything they had. um you know like a lot of the stuff in. Afghanistan. >> sounds almost identical. >> if if you. if you're supporting the Americans and. the Americans pull out and leave you.

know it's it's not going to be a good. thing for you I mean Yeah, Afghanistan. was just a repeat of what we've already. done. We did the same thing, you know, Vietnam. So, what did you learn in your studies for. psychology? >> Uh, it comes to. war.

Well, I I think it helped me. um to have a framework for looking at uh. how people. uh respond in combat, how they can get. addicted to different things, get. addicted to the you know adrenaline. rush. um. you know those kinds of things that help. me to understand I think you know the. impact of fatigue, sleep loss, um.

getting wounded, stress, the different. um changes. It just. it's interesting. We we take soldiers. and we train them and we train them and. train them on the range. Here's what the. site pictures got to look like. here's. here's how you do all this stuff. Um, front sight focus on and on and on. And. then we put you out there and have those. targets start shooting back at you.

Stress level skyrockets. And now you discover you can't see the. sights. Your vision changes. You don't have up. close vision anymore. Everything is. blurry. you know, within the range of. your weapon sights, everything's blurry. You can't get that sight picture when. your stress skyrockets. So now you're you're trying to hit. something and don't realize that you. can't focus, you know, like you've been. trained. Um, so there are a lot of.

things like that that I had the. framework to go back and look at, think. about, uh, and then, you know, go test out, see what works. and what doesn't. And so that's one side. of it. The other side is how do you help. people move forward, start moving. forward again? What is it? What is it that you can do. for them? And everybody's a little. different and you got you have to.

understand that they're starting at. different places. They're a little. different. Um your approach needs to be. different. And I found that, you know, when I'm. talking to vets who. are struggling, um, particular if it's combat related, that one thing that they seem to be. looking for is I want someone that I can. talk to who understands what I'm saying.

I don't care how much book knowledge you. have. I don't care how many books you've. read or stories you've heard. You you just don't know what it's like. and you can't understand me and and I. tell you and you say, "Yeah, I want to. you know that's the way war is and I. said you're not hearing me.". Yeah. and and you know, John and I were.

having a discussion a number of years. back and I said, you know, one of the. things. one of the things that's different about. you and I and and the rest of most of. the other world out there is when you. and I read one of these SOG books and. we're reading about um the gunfights. that's going on. It's not nice and quiet like it is here.

and we're just reading the words and and. hearing it, you know, seeing what's. going on. We hear it. You know that we. see that F4 coming. It's silent. It's. not making a sound until it passes us. And once it goes past us and that sonic. boom hits us and that bomb comes in or. the napom comes in and the heat and and. the smell and everything is I mean it's.

so loud right now. We we can't read that. book and not hear it. You know other. people can read it. They don't hear that. stuff. They don't smell the nape. you know, people who have been there do. And when they're talking to somebody who. hasn't been there, they realize it. And I always I was telling I I did a. podcast with um.

Mike Glover. and a few minutes into it uh you know, I. realized he knows what I'm saying. He's been there. He's done it. And. we're communicating. We're on the same. wavelength here as we talk about what's. going on. You know, it's like you and I, you you've done it. You've seen it and. and we can talk about it and and we're.

connecting while we're doing it. But if. you're some. doctor in a VA hospital somewhere or or. therapist and you haven't experienced. it, it's hard to connect, you know, cuz the. vet realizes it right away. It it. doesn't take him or her but a few. minutes to realize you got some book. knowledge, but you don't know what I'm. talking about. You can't you can't. really empathize with me. You can.

sympathize, but you can't empathize. >> Anyway, did you feel a lot of resentment towards. regular everyday Americans that had not. served, who were. calling you baby killer, woman killer, whatever. in it. >> I didn't I don't resent that they.

haven't served. You know, I'm okay with that. I mean, it's serving. um I don't think is necessarily. good for everyone. Um I don't resent. that. If they haven't served and they want to. call me a baby killer, then, you know, I'm not happy with that. If he wasn't. there, don't tell me what I did.

>> I think a lot of vets in. different generations feel that type of. resentment. What advice do you have for them? >> That there are different generations. and. accept that we're not going to send. everybody. everyone is not going off to. serve. Um, that's not the way we're set. up. Um, and even if we were, I think.

because of the different generations. that we have and the outlook and. philosophy of the different generations, um, it would be difficult. Um, you know, when we were doing the all. volunteer army and we were just dragging. people in right and left and putting. them in the army whether they wanted to. be there or not, it created so many. problems, you know, to go in the service and do.

what needs to be done. And I'm not. talking about war, just to serve, uh, to. be a good, you know, soldier or seal or. whatever. Um, it takes the right. attitude. You've got to want to do it. You You have to believe in it at least. to some degree. Um, and I think it's good that we have a. program where you can get out, you know, you go sign up. I mean, you don't have.

to stay 20 years. You can get out before. then. And I think that's good. Um, a lot. of people. I I I had a basic training company one. time and and I had a guy. um that just. at first he said he really wanted to be. in the army. and then he got he just kept getting.

into trouble uh and he'd go talk to the. chaplain. the chaplain would call me up and say, you know, um George, not his name, but. George, George is a good soldier. You got to you. got to give him a chance. I mean, he's a. good soldier. And he kept we had several. conversations about George, and I was. just misunderstanding. I mean, he was a. good guy. And then I got a call from the. from the chaplain saying, "Is George.

there? You know where George is?". I said, 'I sure he here in the company. area somewhere. Why? is that low life. stole my boom box while he was up here. talking to me yesterday. and he oh man he flipped an art he's so. anyway went to the barracks and sure. enough there was at the chaplain boom. box and took it back to him and then. finally. we I decided to go ahead and process the. paperwork to to let him go get him out.

of the army. So, um, the day of of the company. graduating, he was still in, but he. wasn't going to be able to graduate. And he came to me and he said, "I I know. you're going to have the graduation. ceremony this morning, and I'm not going. to be there, but I stayed up most of the. night last night." Uh, and I wrote a. poem and.

you know I I'd be honored if you would. read this poem at graduation today. Said, "Let me see it.". And I said, "This is the poem you wrote. last night." Yes, sir. Okay. So, it it's the title is I am the. emp uh infantry. I said, "Yes, sir." He's standing here. I'm looking on the wall right behind.

him. And I'm not reading what he wrote. I'm. just reading off the the picture that's. hanging on the wall back there with this. poem on it. I am the infantry. Yes, sir. I I wrote. that. Yeah. I'm the queen of battle. Follow me. Word for word off of that. He copied on. this piece of paper and he given it to. me. Told me he wrote it and he wanted me. to read it. And. some people don't need to be in the.

service. Even if they want to, some of them don't. don't need to be. >> So I don't know. I've looked at um. Korean army. mandatory two years. You know, when you hit a certain age, you've got to go into the army for two. years. Uh when I was in Korea, I had 32.

kusas. 32 Koreans uh who. for whatever reason they were able to. get. uh to serve their two-year oper uh. obligation in the US Army. as long as they they did well uh they. could do their two years of the US Army. and then move on because the rock army. is hard and they're hard on the young.

class. Um, so I had 32 of them. and all I had to do was mention. I think you're going to have to go back. over to the rock army. What do you want. me to do? I do anything. In fact, I. actually sent one back. They came got. him yelling, screaming, drug him into. the jeep and he was yelling out the. back. I'll do anything. I'll do. anything. Just don't send me back. Um, so they do it two years. The North.

Korean army I think is seven years. So. it might be that we have some kind of. service program whether it be military. or some something else that that people. do. I don't know. Everybody's just not cut. out for it, I think. But. >> how did you meet your wife? I was uh stationed at Delana, Georgia uh.

in the the Ranger. camp up there now the called the fifth. ranger battalion. um as an instructor. and a friend of mine had. set up a date with her my wife's. roommate uh but she told. um my friend that she wouldn't date him. unless it was a double date. So, he. needed to get someone um get someone to,

you know, go out with her. So, it would. would been a blind date. So, he got one. of our other friends that was uh said he. would go, but something came up and he. the last minute he wasn't going to be. able to go. So, my friend came to me and. said, "Would would you fill in for him? I really want to, you know, take this. girl out and she won't go unless I have. somebody for her roommate. So, I. volunteered to to go and and we got it.

approved that, you know, it was going to. be a different person. It was going to. be me showing up. But um when I got out of the car uh to. go in with my friend to pick him up, somebody on her hall looked out the. window, saw me coming across the the. parking lot and um I was on crutches. Uh I had I had a really bad landing and.

screwed my knee up on parachute jump. Um, and somebody on the the hall yelled. that he's got a wooden leg and word. spread fast that, you know, I I had a. wooden leg. Um, and she wasn't going to. go, but convinced her that I didn't have. a wooden leg. I was I had a real leg. Um, so.

we went out, we had a, you know, really. had a good, really good time except for. she did have to sit on parachutes that. we had in the back of my friend's car. that, you know, the trunk was full. We. had a bunch of other parachutes there. You know, if you got a bunch of. parachutes and and you got a helicopter. that you can use for, you know, short. period of time, you don't want to have. to stop and repack. You have several. parachutes, you go jump, you hit the. ground, you put on a new one, you go. jump. Um but anyway, um so we kind we.

kind of hit it off from there. Once I didn't go back to uh Vietnam, then we decided to to get married and. 51 years we're still here. So. >> congratulations. What's the secret to a successful. marriage? >> She's always right. and and I would I would do.

well to remember. that whether I think so at the time or. not that she's going to end up being. right. I mean, cuz she really is right. Um, so I need to I need to listen more. and uh. yeah and you know she went to graduated. from college at North Georgia Military. College. So she understood you know. about the military and uh the ranger. camp was right there. She knew about.

rangers and and I I just one quick. thing. Her family for the most part they. had there was one section of of road and. land around it that her grandparents I. guess had owned at one time and. so you're giving it to her kids. So most. of the family lived in that one spot and. I told her when I went over there to. pick her up I said one hand grenade take. out most of your family. They're all.

right here together. Um but anyway, they. would have this big Christmas party, you. know, family would all come in and um. get together every, you know, few days. before Christmas. And um so. this year I got invited. We're not. married yet, but um I got invited to it. And I mean the the house is full, but. you know like at that time um most of.

the men are gathered in one room and you. know so I went in to kind of meet him. and. um one of her uncles said um. Gne says um you're a ranger. No, but for. he asked me he asked me a question about. uh invasive species. He said, "You know, the pine needles are. just killing the pine trees out here. What do you think about that?" I said, "That's not good having, you know, an.

invasive species like that." And a. little bit later, he asked me another. question about trees. And I I said, "Why do you keep asking me questions. about trees?" He said, "Well, you know, Gren said you were a ranger.". [Music]. I I said, "I am a ranger. I I'm a.

[Laughter]. I'm an army ranger.". You could have heard a pin drop in the. whole room. you're in the army, you're an army ranger. They did not have a good reputation in. that area. But and it it was like, "Holy. cow, she's dating an army ranger.". And then then somebody in there just I.

didn't get to see exactly which one it. was. How many people you kill? and it was just silenced. But then they decided, you know, they. they would let me in the family. But. yeah, I thought, why am I getting all. those questions about trees? I don't. >> Oh, man. What are you doing to keep busy. today? >> Today, I'm.

I'm really enjoying spending time with. you. And this has been great from start. to finish. Very impressed with what what. you've done, what you're doing. Uh with. your new facility that you've got set. up, having the opportunity to come up. and spend some time uh to get to know. you better. Uh I mean, this has been. awesome. So, >> well, Dick, it's been a real a real. honor to interview you and I would love.

to get you and John out there here. pretty soon and we'll have a range day, break that new sig in, tell some stories. >> Hey, >> have a fire. >> I'm all for it. >> Me, too. Me, too. But. >> man, I'll tell you, >> I couldn't think of a better person to. close this studio down with than having. you here. And um it just means the world.

to me. And thank you for being here. >> Well, I appreciate it. It is a great. honor to be able to come in and do this. and and be the last person. But even if. I wasn't the last part, just to to get. to come in and and spend the day with. you and chat about all these different. things and you know meet you so and be. able to uh put you on a friend list and. say I know this guy. So I really. appreciate that. And.

there was some discussion. uh this morning when when we ate. breakfast. Um, so John, I tell you, I. got your back. I'm here. You need me, you call me. And. I appreciate it. Appreciate everything. you've done. >> Well, I extend that same to you. Thank. you so much. Seriously, >> it's been an honor. >> God bless. Nice.

[Music]. No matter where you're watching Shawn. Ryan show from, if you get anything out. of this, please like, comment, subscribe, and most importantly, share. this everywhere you possibly can. And if. you're feeling extra generous, please. leave us a review on Apple and Spotify. podcasts.