Gerard Barron - CIA Project Azorian & Deep Sea Mining That Could Change the World | SRS #231

[Music]. Jared Baron, welcome to the show, man. >> Such a privilege to be here. >> It's a privilege for me. Thank you. Thank you for coming. you first popped. up on my radar from a mutual friend Cole. Fackler from GBRS and um so we started. looking at India and I've been. interviewing a couple of different guys. that have been mining different areas of. the universe I guess and um and uh so.

haven't talked to anybody doing it under. the sea so I thought this would be I'm. just fascinated by innovators and what. you guys are doing so I really. appreciate you coming. >> well appreciate the chance to talk to on. your platform to a new audience. >> Perfect. Well, everybody starts with an. introduction. Here we go. Jared Maron, entrepreneur hailing from a. Queensland, Australia dairy farm. Built. global companies across media,

technology, battery manufacturing, and. resource development. Chairman and CEO. of the Metals Company, leading the. charge in deep sea mining. A first. principles thinker committed to resource. extraction with minimal impact on people. and nature. A global traveler splitting. time between London, California, and. Tonga. Where the [ __ ] is Tonga? Well, uh I I should correct that a tiny. bit. It's more um you know, Tonga is a.

beautiful Pacific island country, but I. should mention Tonga and Naru, which is. also a even smaller country. uh little. island in the Pacific. And but look, it's a it's a pretty. I'm a pretty frequent traveler, that's. for sure. And I'm Australian, of course, as you said. But um but over the last 14. years, I've been working with Pacific. Island countries, and I mean, they are.

amazing people. I mean, Tongu is. beautiful. Naru is really special. It's. where the birds used to stop when they. headed south. >> No kidding. And so it was discovered. about, you know, 80 years ago that it. was rich in phosphate. And so the. Germans and the English and Australians. and Kiwis came and took it all. And, you. know, it was discovered back when good. old James Cook was sailing the world. after he discovered Australia and said. he called it Pleasant Island. And then.

everyone came and took all of their. beautiful phosphate which was used to. feed the world. And and so now you have. 80% of the island that's uninhabitable. Then they handed the country back to the. people of Naru. Said, "How would you. like independence now that we've taken. everything that you've got?". >> Yeah. >> Right. I mean, what where's the favorite. place? Where is the your favorite place. that you've been? >> Oh, that's easy. Australia. >> Australia. >> I'm I'm a I'm a very proud Australian.

Very proud Australian. Although. Erica, my partner, said, "Why don't we. get our 23 and me, you know, our DNA?". And um it's like, "Yeah, I'd be. interested in that." Came back 100%. Irish. >> No kidding. 100%. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right on, man. Right on. >> So, so my ancestors were well behaved. Kept it in the family. Anyway, >> perfect. >> Many generations in Australia. >> Perfect. Well, we got a couple things to.

get through before we get into the. interview. And uh so one thing, first. thing is I got a Patreon account. >> And Patreon is a community we built. They've been here with us since the. beginning. And um when I started this. damn thing in my attic and now we're. what this is our third studio, hopefully. our final, but they've been with us. through the whole journey. >> And uh they're the reason I get to be. here with you today. So one of the. things we do is we offer them the.

opportunity to ask each and every guest. a question. So, this is from Eric Alger. Jared, most people see you today as the. frontman for Deep Sea Mining, but before. the Metals Company, you were behind. Nautilus Minerals, which collapsed under. controversy. What did that failure teach. you about. how much of this battle is really. technology and environment, and how much. of it is winning the story the world. believes? M well I don't think it's.

about winning the story but maybe. great question so I can set the record. straight because in 2001 a friend of. mine went to work for Nautilus. He was. the the second employee there and he was. telling me about it and I said man that. sounds amazing. He said yeah and we've. got no money. Can you put some money in? It's like I mean I was building my own. company at the time but I was like yeah. yeah of course of course. Well, because.

I thought it was such an obvious idea. and they were focused on a different. type of metals. They were focused on. seafloor massive sulfides, which is. where the chimneys pop up between the. tectonic plates. Anyway, so I I agreed. to fund the first $1.5 million. And it um despite it almost sending me. broke at the time cuz I was building. another company as well at the same time. which needed money uh it ended up being. a great success and we floated the. company in 2006 and I sold out in 20078.

uh pretty well the same time my friend. left the company and uh but I never. worked for it and I but I was very. helpful in attracting other capital and. then the big guys came in. We raised $45. $500 million and then of course uh after. I sold out Papu New Guinea the the. country in 2012 maybe decided they. wanted to invest as well because they. were focused on a project up in Papu New.

Guinea and by law the the government has. the right to invest. They said we want. to invest. So they did and then what. happened I'm winding the clock forward. now. Keep in mind I sold out in 2007. In 2018, the owners um there were two. main people funding the company even. though it was public and they said, "Look, um we're the only two people that. appear to be happy to keep funding it. Why don't we put the assets up for. sale?" So, it was really called an.

administration, a reorganization. No one came forward, so they bought it. and privatized it. And so. 2018, you know, I sold out in 2007 and. and I made some some good money out of. it to be honest, but it was a very. different time. Firstly, it was. operating in the territorial waters of. Papa New Guinea. It was a small resource. by comparison because they only ever. found millions, singledigit millions of. tons of this stuff, very high grade,

rich in copper and gold. Um whereas. we've got two billion tons of these. rocks like the one in my hands defined. resource of 1.6 6 billion but we think. about another 4 to 500 million tons of. these rocks on our resource so very. different scale and also a different. time you know the geopolitics weren't as. lively back then as they are now but I. think you know that project will get. into production the people that.

privatized it are continuing to push. forward and I think it will be a success. and you know but these projects are. tough you know getting a new industry. started is tough, you know, and I I we. started this company in 2011. So So my biggest gift from Nautilus was. >> made some good money out of it, but it. taught me about poly metallic nodules. And um so in 2011, we started this one. and here we are 2025. and you know, we're what I believe to be.

the final stretch before the industry. becomes big and commercial. So, that's a very long answer to Eric's. question, but yeah, >> it's a good answer. One more thing. Everybody gets a gift. >> Oh, thank you. I've seen people chewing. away at these. How many packets did um. did our friend Palaki eat of these? Cuz. he seemed to be chewing a lot that day. >> He loves them. Yeah,

>> he loves them. Yeah. I can't remember. how many bags, but it was a handful. So yeah, he was all hopped up on gummy. bears, but. >> Well, thank you. Well, I bought you a. gift today as well. >> Oh, I love gifts. >> Yeah. Well, this is a very precious poly. metallic nodule. And we had them. made about 5 million years old. This. one, we had them made by an artist in um. Detroit. And this one is particularly oxidized,

turned a bit gold. It's the same as the. one that sits on the Resolute desk. We. uh prepared one for for President Trump. when he signed the executive order on. April 24 and uh got the American flag. and the coordinates of where we found. it. >> Oh man, that is cool. >> So. >> Oh man, that's beautiful. >> Look at that. >> It's going to look amazing on one of. these shelves here. >> Yep. It's gonna go right over there. >> Yeah. Good. Good,

>> man. Thank you. This is really cool. Thank you. >> Yeah. I'm pretty sure no one else will. give you one of those. >> I'm pretty sure they won't either. [ __ ]. >> That's awesome. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. >> I' I've got to give a shout out to my. buddy Andre who's my uh you know, one of. my partners on this project. He would. love this room. He would love this room. everything about it. >> Well, >> yeah, >> maybe I'll show him one day.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> I got to give a shout out to Eric Bethl, too. He Oh, yeah. Totally. He told me. when I first met him, uh we had dinner. at a place here and he was telling me. about some of the uh investments that. his VC had made and and the first one. that he had brought up is your company. Actually, he told me about that before. we ever even met, >> right? >> And um told me about what you guys were. doing and. >> sounds awesome. I can't wait to dive. into it. But, you know, and like I said, it's interesting. I've had, you know,

had people come on talk about mining the. moon, >> talk about mining asteroids, >> enriching uranium, and now you're here, we're doing it under the sea. So, um, >> it's going to be fascinating. And, and. but what what got you interested in in. in metals, in nodules? Well, you know, I'm a grew up in a dairy farm, went to university, had four jobs in my.

first year, realized there was no time. for a fifth, started the company, and uh. that company worked out pretty well, and. and I've been building companies my. entire life. So I'm I'm kind of. naturally drawn to things that are, you. know, a little bit unique and, you know, I've been lucky to build some. great companies and grow them globally. And then, as I mentioned, I invested in. 2001 in another project, Nautilus. And. then we started this company in 2011.

And originally, I was just going to be a. financial backer. I only decided to step. into the ring, you know, in formally I. took over in 2017 and became chairman. and CEO. Um, before that we'd hired. someone out of one of the big mining. companies and it wasn't working out so. well. And I thought, what do I know. about running a mining company, a. resource company, you know, you'd go to. BHP or Freeport to go and find one of. them. But actually.

when I started to dive into, you know, the data behind this resource. and how big it was and how impactful it. could be and. to global supply, you know, and and and. of course a number of things then came. along to help as well, like geopolitics. has now made this a really hot topic. You know, critical minerals are on. everyone's mind. And you know, if if we.

take a step back and apply some of that. first principle thinking, 70% of our. planet is ocean. Yet, we don't get. metals out of the ocean. You know, we. get a few diamonds, but you know, they're slowly being replaced by lab. grown diamonds, but we don't get our our. nickel or copper or cobalt or. manganesees out of the oceans. Yet in. this one little deposit where we are. focused, 70% of the known reserves of nickel and.

cobalt and manganesees sit in the form. of these poly metallic nodules. And they. literally just sit on the seafloor like. the one in my hand. And. so it's only a matter of time that we. got around to it. And there was a false. start back in the 70s. when and that's that's another story, right? Because the CIA were very. involved in getting this whole industry. started. >> Really? Why? So,

>> well, >> I've got some ideas. I got a feeling it. doesn't have anything to do with mining. >> It has nothing to do with mining, but it. was a great cover story. Yeah. And um. the Russian submarine which had nuclear. warheads on it, the K129. sank in the Pacific. It had set sail. from a Russian port and the Americans. were this is dating back to 1968. The Americans had already implanted.

listening devices on the seafloor around. the Pacific. so they could detect nuclear explosion. and other activities. And so when the. they were tracking this submarine and. all of a sudden they heard an explosion. and the Russians didn't have this same. technology installed in the oceans and. so the Americans quickly clocked onto it.

and the CIA got involved and um but they. had to have a reason to be out there. because the Russians were looking for. their lost submarine and they'd had no. idea where it was. they could just say, "Well, it left this port this time and. we last heard at this date in this. location.". So, the CIA. went ahead and and started to plan how. they could recover this. First, they. needed to establish were were the.

warheads in place? Were they worth. recovering? And when they decided yes, they were, they said, 'Well, actually, we can't. just go and pick them up because the. Russians, it'll become an international. incident. We might have World War II on. our hands. And so, they said, "We need. to there's there's a lot of polytallic. nodules around them." And so, we need. to use the recovery of these polytallic. nodules as the cover story to go and. recover these the sunken Russian.

submarine. So they thought, well, they're not going to believe that we, the government, are going to be. involved. So who can we get to front it? Howard Hughes, because everyone thought. he's a bit crazy. He'll be up for this. And so they reached out to Howard. Hughes. And he said, "Yeah, of course, no problem." And uh so the CIA funded it. all. And there were other companies. involved. And the Glowar Explorer was, you know, became the first deep sea.

exploration vessel and mining vessel. And it, you know, that attracted other. people into the industry because of. course no one else knew about this. And. so then you had other consortia forms, Shell and BP and uh Mitsubishi from. Japan and and many other corporations. became involved and this whole industry. was moving forward. But then the United Nations decided they. wanted to get involved as well because.

they were like, well, who owns the. ocean? Like we should all agree this uh. set of rules like we should share these. resources in a more equitable manner. And so 169 countries now um signed on to. this treaty called UNCLOS. But what it. meant was America had this leading. position when it comes to polytallic. nodules and ocean metals. But then they. decided to step back and see where this. international consortia went. And so the.

the mining companies involved then got. busy looking for more minerals on land. But when you see this deposit like they. estimate there are more than 20 billion. tons of these. >> Wow. >> More than 20 billion tons. As I said, we. we have an estimated two billion tons on. our license area. So, it's generally. regarded we've got the best ground out. there. But so, you had all of these. countries form this treaty. And of. course, um well, not not form it, agree. a treaty, but Ronald Reagan was the.

president then and he's like, "No way in. the world. We're not going to join. another international treaty." So, America stood aside and um said, "Well, because no one has sovereignty over the. oceans, right? Every nation can uh. traverse the oceans. Every nation has. the rights to the seabed minerals on the. floor um to lay cables. But all of these other countries said, "Well, when it comes to the seafloor. minerals, how about we agree a set of.

rules?" And so they signed the treaty, but America did not. And so uh you know. it's been a pretty exciting. year for us last 12 months at least. because um you know we've we've pivoted. our business away from this. international organization to now focus. entirely on permitting this resource. through the US administration and that. really became possible with the election. of President Trump. >> That's good to hear. That's good to. hear.

What I mean. what percentage of that rock has. precious metals in it? Well, it's. amazing, right? Um they this forms. through. precipitation. So, it grows a little bit like a pearl. grows. And so, we turn 100% of this into. sailable material. And it's got about. 33%. pure metal.

But the rest of the material is there's. some silica in there. Um there's a lot. of crystallized water in there. So about. 24% of it is um is moisture. And but the. rest of it we all turn into salailable. product. And um and that in itself is a. is almost. well very unique to this resource. because on land you know you go looking. for a copper deposit and last year the.

average grade of copper mind was about 6. of 1%. So it means that you go digging. up a ton of material, a thousand kg of. material and you have to treat it and. process it and cart it and take it. places looking for 6 kg of copper. So. it's so it's very inefficient and it's. very expensive and it creates a lot of. impacts. Whereas we lift these up, take. them to shore, process them and we turn.

it all into sailable material. So, it's. kind of unique. >> You do the processing as well. >> That's our plan. >> Wow. >> That's our plan. >> Mine and process. >> Yeah. >> And and and the reason why we're so. excited about the US is because. President Trump and his administration. made reindustrialization a priority. Because. for decades, America has been.

outsourcing mining and processing and. refining to other parts of the world, particularly China. And then of course you wake up one day. and you realize that your adversaries. have control out of all of the critical. minerals that you need. And. it was a. foolish playbook in hindsight, >> but it was hard and heavy industry. You.

know, the world wanted to be involved in. cool new industries, but when it comes. down to it, if you if it ain't growing, it's mined. And so, you can't just dream up a land-based. mine. You know, they don't just appear. out of nowhere. And all of the obvious. ones were found and developed. So that's why if you look at about half. of our revenue comes from nickel. And. 100% of the growth in nickel supply over.

the last 7 years has come from what we. call rainforest nickel. And to get to. it, you've got to remove the rainforest. to dig up this material called nickel. laterite. And of course you um and we're. not talking about you know. anything other than pristine beautiful. rainforests which are filled with. indigenous people in some cases. certainly filled with enormous amount of. biodiversity and biomass. uh filled with cute cuddly animals and.

you know led by China it's just you know. bulldozing it out of the way. >> and that's the beginning of the impacts. you know because you you depro process. that material comes with a host of. impacts. Uh the waste material gets. spilt into rivers and oceans and kills. off the local industry, the fishy. industries. And you know, I mean, for. your listeners, just punch into your. favorite search engine, rainforest. nickel. And you know, I've I've.

I've had the firsthand experience of. witnessing, you know, in one particular. region. Uh it was in Indonesia actually. where 10 years ago. there were. no people focused on nickel mining. We. visited there my team and I maybe 3. years ago. This town of 70,000 people. had been built all focused on nickel.

mining. Like 70,000 people. >> 70,000. >> That's a lot of people. and and all of a. sudden and it was all 100% done by. China. I mean that that when China sets. its mind on things, you know, they. become very very impactful and um and. successful. And in this case, that's. what they've done. And and. you know, I know we're going to talk. about it today, but. this industry almost went that way as. well. >> Yeah. And it was only the election of.

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set up a US subsidiary in 2013, and it's. our US subsidiary that is applying for. the permit. Yeah. >> Gotcha. Got And you said 50% of our. revenue comes from nickel. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Is that US revenue? >> Well, at the moment, we haven't. generated our first revenue. 2027 is. when we're aiming for first production. Yeah. But that but if you look at the. metals in here, we've got nickel and. copper and cobalt and manganesees and um.

and America imports about 50% of its. copper, but it pretty well imports. almost 100% of its nickel, cobalt, and. maganesees. >> Wow. What do we use those metals for? >> Well, let's think about Well, copper is. used everywhere, right? For. >> wires, >> wires and many other things. But nickel. is mainly used to make um it's a. hardening substance to make stainless. steel. So you add it to steel to make. stainless steel. Uh it's also used in.

super alloys. You need it for making. military equipment. And um and then. cobalt is of course used in your iPhone. battery, but it's also a very efficient. thing. They're all used in batteries for. cars as well. So if you have a, you. know, Tesla. EV, it's full of nickel and used to be. full of cobalt. They kind of managed to. get cobalt out of it, but mainly because. they weren't able to get a affordable.

um supply that hadn't touched the hands. of child miners in the Congo, which is. where the cobalt market is. characterized. And then steel, manganesees is used to make steel. You. can't make a ton of steel without. manganesees. And now more manganesees is. going into batteries as well. So these. are all what we call base metals. They're the foundation building blocks. for industry. And you know if you want. to if you want to look at you know over. the last since 200.

two. about 20,000 companies have evaporated. who were involved in heavy industry. 20,000. >> 20,000. >> 20,000. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> 20,000 millions of jobs. have disappeared and it's all because of. outsourcing to. developing countries. you know, China saying we can do it. And. of course, you know what I I know that.

the current administration are very. focused on um you know, looking at. dumping and have these materials being. coming back into the country at cheaper. prices and you know 232 reviews are. underway. I understand because it's. another way where you can go and buy. um where you can go and buy market share. and end up controlling an entire.

industry because the the incentive price. for local production. is too low to attract investment into. those industries because you know there. are there are some nickel deposits in. America. They're small, but they need nickel prices to be, you. know, 50% higher than where they are to. even break even. >> Interesting. >> We don't have that problem because we're. so high grade. You know, I mentioned.

before. last year the average grade of copper. was 6 of 1%. Um, so this is full of. filled of nickel, copper, cobalt, and. magnes. But if you were to put all of. those other metals into copper. equivalent just for value perspective, we're like more than 7% copper. equivalent. So an order of magnitude. richer material and that obviously has a. big impact on the economics. And so you. know we we can withstand. dumping from you know certain markets.

>> like China. >> So we're not mining any nickel here in. here in the US. No, there are some that. are. >> they've shut down because the the what. the the. not making the company's not making. enough money. >> No, that's right. If you um you over the. last 5 years, you've seen, you know, some of the biggest nickel miners, you. know, BHP, Valet, you know, slow down or. shut their operations, put them on um.

care and maintenance hoping for a. recovery in the price. But but um there. doesn't seem to be any recovery in the. price available in the next few years. And you know and at the moment you know. if you've got 70% market share which is. probably what China has when it comes to. nickel. >> 70%. >> zero. Yeah. >> Yeah. Why not go for 100? Keep keep the. price down there. >> Yeah. >> Go for 100 and then you can put the.

price to whatever you want. >> That's true. That's true. Man, China's. just got us in so many different angles. The whole world, it seems like. >> that's because they're really smart, you know, and I you mentioned Eric. before, Bethl. He's one of the guys that. gets it, you know, because he's lived. there. He's lived the experience. I've lived the experience as well. I. I've I've admired their approach. I was. um you know one of the companies.

I um. I I grew was making batteries in China. back when they started to attract invite. foreign investment you know in the early. '90s they were starter batteries not so. much uh they weren't EV batteries you. know I watched Pong come out of the out. of the ground you know there were. hundreds of cranes building at the same. time it was like I remember I used to. take people with me on trips to say. you've got to come and see this. Like, you will not believe it. You know,

you'd pull up at a train crossing and. there'd be 2,000 bikes there. Now, you pull up and there's no bikes. there. You know, it's it's a it's it's. it's just it's impressive. It's. impressive. But. I think the West has fallen into the. trap of letting them do that, thinking. it'll all work out in the end. Mhm. >> But that's a trap.

>> I don't think you're right. I know. you're right with that. I know you're. right. I mean, they they own practically. our whole damn supply chain. I mean, is. Australia are they are they concerned. about all the stuff that China's. involved in and doing and innovating? >> Yeah. And I think the, you know, the the. Scott Morrison u, you know, recent. president, former um, prime minister we call them, had a bit.

of a blowup with the Chinese because he. ordered an inquiry into where CO came. from. They didn't like that. So they. banned our coal and live fresh. livestock. Didn't impact it. They just bought it. somewhere else. And so we supplied them. I think the the current prime minister. is um laying out a red carpet. >> He is. >> Yeah. >> How so? >> Sees them as a great trade partner.

Sees them as a great trade partner. Not. spending enough money on defense. Just. thinking everything's going to work out. beautifully. >> It's a trap to fall into. What is the. sentiment of Australia about that? >> Australia's lost its way a little bit in. my personal opinion. I think that.

people want to follow. voters want to follow someone a leader. and. there is not a good viable alternative. in Australia at the moment. So it's a. left-leaning government. The net result of that is, you know, you've got uh. eight out of every 10 new jobs created.

in the last four years are in the. government. >> Are you serious? >> Mhm. >> Eight out of 10. >> Mhm. >> Holy [ __ ]. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> And you can see a theme repeating, you. know. And I think that. one of the challenges is, you know, these economies go on until. they bust, right? >> Mhm. >> You know, I see it in the UK now as. well. I I I.

mean eventually whether it's immigration. or whether it's government spending. eventually. the books don't balance you know and. eventually. you know we we. the press coming out of the UK at the. moment is horrible you know free speech. you can't say things you end up being. locked up for saying stuff. compared to some of the other crimes. that some of the uh not So, welcome. visitors are committing, but the world.

went a little bit crazy. >> Mhm. >> And I I I think it's kind of coming back. a little bit. At least people feel safer. partly because of platforms like your. own, you know, being cancelled by the. media now. It doesn't matter, you know. It's like whatever. >> It's like there are better avenues to. express views safely, you know? >> Yeah. Yeah, I think mainstream media is. going to the wayside. Like we were. talking earlier, I mean, the average the.

average viewer of mainstream media right. now is about 69 years old. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It will die. >> with the baby boomer generation unless. they make some miraculous change, which. I don't see that happening at all. Just. as divisive as they've ever been. >> Yeah. >> Maybe more now, but. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Look, I think uh not before time. I mean, and I've I've lived that. firsthand. I've lived it with China. where I've seen what people like Eric.

talk about. I've had firsthand. experience of them intimidating me and. what we're doing and our align aligning. with the USA. They don't like it because. they thought they had it. all going to plan and we broke the plan. >> Good for you. >> Yeah, >> that's honorable. >> Yeah. So where where all does the metals. company operate? Is it is it strictly. off the coast of uh North America?

>> There's only one deposit that we're. focused on at the moment. It's this uh. area known as the Clarion Clipperan zone. and it was discovered way back in the. 1870s by the British. who sailed around the world on HMS. Challenger with a basket off the back. and thankfully the the steam piston had. been invented so they could haul up this. basket. It was at sea for four years and. they came across this big field of. nodules about a thousand miles southwest.

of San Diego. And I mentioned before they precipitate, right? They grow a little bit like. pearls grow in the um in the ocean. And. so there are nodules found in other. oceans, but they're just not as. interesting as these because these. contain a very high grade of nickel and. copper. And the reason for that is if. you look to our east, you've got the. Rockies and the Andes and over millennia. they they eroded into the Pacific Ocean.

And so you had these currents that came. from the north and south, met headed. west. And that's where you have this. belt of nodules. It's amazing. It's about I don't know, thousand miles high, about 4,000 miles. wide with like a carpet of nodules. I. mean, it's it's the most beautiful mother. nature gift, you know, far away from human settlement.

No alternative use for this part of the. ocean floor. Just sat there looking. proud saying, "Come and get me, >> man." So how does it I mean well. actually let me how much of the ocean. floor have you explored for other. deposits of nodules? We haven't to be honest. But but you. know there are other people exploring. including Noah the US agency. they they. go out and and Bowen who explore their.

own territorial waters and of course. other explorers that the Chinese I think. have explored a lot of the ocean floor. uh a lot more than they probably admit. and but this is so big like it's. multigenerational deposit you know as I. said 70% of the known reserves of nickel. cobalt and manganesees are in this one. deposit. and so that's where we've had our focus. since 2011 purely there.

>> So you don't even you don't even have a. need to explore anymore. >> No. >> Do you do you think that there are other. metals under there that we don't know. about yet? >> Yeah, probably. Yeah, probably. I mean, you know, before I mentioned where these. tectonic plates meet, you know, if you. get a map out of the world, you can see. how the globe how planet Earth all. sticks together. So you get a lot of. pressure coming up from the core of the. earth and you know that's where a lot of. these deposits have formed and the.

systems die. So they're very hard. Some. of the systems are still active. They're. still emitting gases. So they're easier. to find. They're like chimneys. underwater. They're fascinating. And um. but some of them have have um been dead. for you know I don't know million years. or 100,000 years. And so they're. covered. So you've got to go really. exploring and so yeah there there are. other deposits out there for sure and. Tonga is an interesting.

uh example there because they have a lot. of volcanog volcanogenic activity around. where they are. You saw that massive. underwater volcano exploded some years. ago. Um, so look, some of these Pacific. island countries in particular have a. lot of medals in their potential medals. in their economic zones. So there will be opportunities there as. well. And I I think what the world is.

waiting to see is, you know, us to get started and then, you know, I think there'll be a massive. rush. You know, now we we we know we. have the best ground in the best area. But once people see firsthand the low. impact of what we're doing, the fact. that the area recovers fast. I mean, in. the last. since 2011, we've spent, I don't know, now approaching 3/4 of a.

billion dollars, a lot of it on. environmental research. Even though you know and I I I always. use this first principle analogy to say. we should be carrying out extractive. industries in parts of the planet with. the least life. >> not the most life. >> At the moment we're pushing into our. rainforests which is the area with the. most biodiversity, the most cute and. cuddly animals. When down here on the other end of that. table is the abyssal zone and the.

abyssal plains and the abyssal hills. cover 50% of the planet. Okay, 50% of. the planet almost approaching 70% of the. oceans are considered abyssal. characterized by deep low low amount of. biomass there because all the food gets. eaten on the way down the water column. And you know, if you look on our website. at metals.co, you'll see lots of video. of us doing trials down there. And you.

know, there are no plants down there, of. course, because we're talking, you know, more than 4,000 mters. deep. And the amount of life living down there. is grams per square meter. Most of it. bacteria, single cell organisms living. in the sediment. So if you ever had to have a big. resource somewhere, this would be the. perfect place. You can't go and grow. crops there or live there or, you know, it's the perfect thing. Yet.

we also have people who wish we wouldn't. do it. You know, >> there's push back. I mean, first of all, I love what you're doing. I mean, you're. doing it cheaper and you're you are I. mean, it's a it's it's net positive for. the earth, right? because the mining is. is hopefully going into the ocean where. there's not much life. But, you know, when it comes to the rainforest and, you. know, some of the stuff that we see, I. mean, I've seen documentary documentary. after documentary about what we're doing.

there and it it it goes through my head. when I see those things. Are we. destroying more resources than we're. even gaining? M. >> and you know I mean all the undiscovered. life organisms microorganisms I mean. timber trees clean the air I mean it's. just it's it's it did it didn't bother. me early on in life cuz I didn't realize. you know but now when I see it I'm like. man if you look at all the landfills and. [ __ ] I just watched one about.

>> Amazon. >> and all the destruction that that. company is doing to the earth and they. you they try to put this facade on that. that that. >> you know, oh, we're saving the earth. And it's like, no, you're not, man. You've created more waste, >> you know, through Amazon than than. arguably anything that that's ever. existed. And. >> and so I love I love that about your. company. Was that was that. is that a early on ethos or is that a.

byproduct that totally came out of it? Yeah, I mean I've I've I've always. deemed myself an environmentalist and. you know and I I often get criticized. for. the fact that by the NGO community or. you know activists who don't want to see. any progress saying ah you've just you. know switched from talking about. environment to now talking about.

geopolitics and critical supply chains. It's like, well, if you go back to my. presentation decks a decade ago, you'll. find security of supply was always. highlighted as one of the critical. issues. But, you know, at the end of the. day, geopolitics are pretty important. You know, because we've got trading. partners who've said they'll turn off. supply. >> Mhm. >> If they choose to. And that tells you. you've got to make some changes in that. supply chain. And and so.

but if we just maybe take a a journey. down that path because. circularity. is something we should aspire to and at. the metals company we do aspire to it. And if you go uh we just had a big. strategy day on August 4 actually. where we you know talked about step one. is where can we find the lowest impact. supply of these critical minerals. And. when I say lowest impact I mean um you.

know less destruction of biomass. ecosystem less impact on biodiversity. less CO2 emissions less impact on. freshwater ecosystems and the list goes. on. We've we've we've spent so much. money like hundreds of millions of. dollars on on that whole basket of. studies. and they all point to one thing and that. is that we can massively reduce the. impact when we create metals from these. rocks compared to land-based.

alternatives. No matter where they come. from, ocean metals from these rocks is. the way to go. But eventually. the world has to get more focused on. recycling and they will. And when I say. we need to aspire to circularity in the. future, I hope we won't be picking up. these rocks in a 100 years time. We should be making sure that we're. using recycling every single atom we put.

out there. In fact, we we talk a lot. about as metals as a service. I I built. a software as a service company in a. previous company and metals as a service. is a similar idea. It's like, hey, we'll. give you these metals, you can use them, but we want them back. because they have to do something with. them, right? At the end of life, you've. got a responsibility. So, you can't just. put them in the waste pile. You've got. to hand them back somewhere. So, so. instead of us just treating fresh. nodules, we'll treat recycled material,

black mass, as well. And eventually, you. know, recycled material will have a. growing share. But at the moment, there. are not enough metals in the system to. meet the needs. So, we need to find a a. fresh input. of billions of tons as until we build. that reserve. because. there are just not enough metals coming. back in to be recycled. you know, when. it's easy to see how an electric vehicle.

battery gets recycled, but a lot of the other metals in the. system don't get recycled or or they. have a much longer life. So, I can see. in decades to come that we will not be. in the business of picking up rocks. We'll be in the business of purely. recycling the metals that we've. previously sold. And that's a good day. because that's that's going to be a. great thing for planet Earth, an amazing. thing. >> That's very forward thinking on your.

part. Do you have any idea how much. metal would need to be in circulation. for that to actually take place? >> We've done the calculations and it's a. big number. It's a big number. like um. I think the if we if we use a uh a. trusted source say the international. energy agency or the world bank they. pretty well align. they say we need to increase extractive.

industries by between four and 500%. peranom by 2040. four to five times more mining. by 2040 to meet the needs. Wow, that's a lot. >> It's a lot. And you know, and I think. that. that's where people don't give enough. attention to where the materials are. coming from, you know, for the electric car battery.

that you're using or your iPhone battery. or just generally stuff. You know, if it. ain't growing, it's mind. It's that. simple. And of course we've been talking in the. recent years all about AI and you know. bits you know it's the bit economy but. actually it's time for atoms you know. because reindustrialization is going to. depend on the atoms that are contained. in here the real world infrastructure.

and so. you know and I think that's where. you know I'm I get criticism from some. people in the environmental group who. are very anti- anything. They're. anti-growth. >> They're anti the fact that, you know, despite the fact that we've spent. hundreds of millions of dollars on. scientific research, they criticize the. fact, yeah, but you spent it, so you can. influence the outcome. It's like, doesn't work that way. We went and. hired, you know, the best universities.

and organizations to carry out this. research. the Natural History Museum, um, Texas AM, you know, Florida. University, like there's 20 of the. world's leading institutions who have. subject matter experts expertise when it. comes to ocean research. So, we went. said, "This is our goal. This is the. work program. We'll pay for it. You get. to do it. You get to publish your. results, but it all filters back into. this one integrated environmental impact.

study." And um and you know, we've we've. had the green pieces of the world um. come and board our boat in the middle of. the Pacific to try and stop us doing. this research because they don't want to. see the results. You know, the results. are very inconvenient to their argument. >> You know, we we've seen time and time. again that these groups that they don't. want to see growth. And I mean, I think. the the first one that comes to mind is. US energy sector. I mean, >> we've really knapped ourselves,

especially when it comes to uh. comparison to China, >> you know, they're building a new coal. plant every other damn day. >> Y. >> and they're way ahead on nuclear, it. seems to be. And and you know, we we we. we. don't mine our own gas, you know, not. nearly enough. and. can't go nuclear. The cleanest form of. energy in the world according to the. people that the folks that I've. interviewed on the subject. >> I agree. And we use we want to you know.

there was this big push which seems to. have died down a little bit now with. this administration but this big green. push with renewables. >> you know and and the groups behind that. claim energy independence for America. but it's not energy independence because. all of the we don't mine our own lithium. we don't produce our own solar we don't. produce our own wind turbines we that's. all imported from China. >> and And so I I don't I don't understand.

how anybody can think that that is. energy independence when you're you you. you. are beholden to another country for the. materials and the tech and and and and. actual production of all of the you know. the panels and stuff that come from. >> China. That's not independence. And you. talk about independence uh from China. when it comes to the metals. And so I do. have a a question. I mean.

in regards to the US, I mean we've had. the ability to gain independence in an. variety of ways from our oil and gas. reserves which we have not tapped into. very much and we are relying on you know. the Middle East uh for that. We just. talked about renewables. We talked about. nuclear. I mean, does the US have the. stomach to become independent, you know, in the metals industry or any other.

industry for that matter? Do we have the. appetite for that? Do we have the. stomach? Can we actually. >> do you think we'll actually do it? Cuz. we've had the opportunity several times. Yeah. >> And it's really, you know, when you. think about it in that aspect and and. how far we are behind on. >> energy, >> our supply chain, all these things and. beholden to China. I mean, do you see do. you see the change? Is it going to. happen? >> But I but I think no matter what your. political view,

people should be grateful. for the Trump administration. getting into government because. I swear to you, Ocean Metals was about. to go China's way. And this is a bipartisan issue. critical. mineral supply chain is a bipartisan. issue, but not many people have the. stomach. or the kahunas to be able to see it.

through. And you know, we saw President. Trump issue an executive order on April. 24 to say we have a right to these. minerals. I want I'm instructing my. government agencies to fasttrack the. permitting because. we need the critical minerals. China. dominates the supply chain now. They're. going to dominate this as well if we. don't get busy. And so. I think that a lot of the moves that.

this administration are moving uh making. are starting to. work. Every innovator that I've had in. here that is doing some type of, you. know, good for the country is is is. saying the same thing. They're all. beating to the same drum saying that. this administration is is getting rid of. a lot of the red tape for innovators to. be able to to do what they do and make. the world a better place. So, >> and the thing I see, Sean, is is the the. political appointees.

They're really topshelf people. like. they are people that have come out of. they're either amazingly successful or. they're people that have come and put. their careers on. hold so they can come and help out. You. know the there's one guy who's uh the. critical minerals are you know he he. like he is he just said the. administration needs me. I'm gonna stop. what I'm doing for this major mining. company and come and help the.

administration sort out critical. minerals and um like like he's at the. top of his game, you know, like and. that's what I noticed with the political. appointees that we're dealing with. the. same with Noah. You know, the people. we're dealing with have conviction and. they they are super talented and I think. that that is going to create that. momentum and you know, we're confident. that we'll be in production during the. 47th administration. and and we're also confident that we.

will make it a bipartisan issue because, you know, re-industrialization. is so critical. I don't think anyone. would argue that it's not going to be. good for the long-term benefit of. America to bring back some of those jobs. to America. >> Mhm. >> And you would think the other side of. politics wanted even more, right? But I think this administration will get.

that ball rolling and I think it won't. matter, please God, who's in power. Because once you get the. ball rolling, people will get a taste of. it. They'll get a taste of jobs being. created because it's true, right? AI is. going to cost jobs. >> It's hard to I see the optimist talking. about how it's going to work out fine. >> You know, I'm not sure about that. You. know, >> I think a lot of people are worried. about AI taking their jobs. >> Yeah. >> And it's already it's started. It's.

already started in in in just about. every sector other than manual labor. But. >> so let's talk about how this actually. works. >> What does it take to mine minerals at. the bottom of the ocean floor 4,000 m. below? >> Well, it's it's. it's a big advantage that they just sit. on the ocean floor like this. So we. don't have to drill or dig or tunnel to.

find them. It's a two-dimensional. resource, which is quite amazing. you go. down there looking. Exploration's pretty. easy. Um, so we send a robot down. So we build. this beautiful robot. In fact, our. partner's have built it for us. Sees are. one of our biggest investors. And for. the last 40 years, they've been laying. pipes for the deep in the deep ocean to. connect oil and gas to transport it. around the world.

Owned by an amazing engineer, Edward. Hermer. And. so we build the robot. We have a. production vessel floating up top. In. fact, our first production vessel called. the hidden gem was a former oil and gas. drill ship which we bought for um well. all seas bought it but with some help. from us um very cheaply. It was a $700 million boat new in 2011. and bought it for less than $50 million.

And we then connect it with a big riser. it's called. Think of it as a big straw. which is the vertical transport system. And so basically the the robot crawls. along and fires a jet of water at these. nodules. So kind of a curved head fires. a jet of water. It creates an inverse. pressure and lifts the nodule. goes into the hopper. We separate the. sediment, which we spit out the back,

and we then move the nodule into the. vertical transport system and pump it up. to the boat. 4,200 m. >> How big are these robots? >> Well, the first one we built was 6 m. wide, weighed about uh 90 tons. The biggest challenge was keeping it on. the floor. >> 90 tons. >> because when you put it in water, it. gets a lot of buoyancy. Then you add. more buoyancy. >> 90 tons buoyant.

>> Yeah. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. Yeah. In fact, funny story. Um, another contractor. was out there doing some trials. They. too had a collector, but they weren't. doing, you know, in 2022, we ran a full. collector, full end to end production. system, but they were just testing their. robot. They put it they put it over the. ship and dropped it literally. and they. thought, "Oh my goodness, 4,200 meters." And there was big panic,

including from us, because it wouldn't. have been helpful to me either. And um I. mean, um [ __ ] happens, right? >> I mean, it shouldn't, you know, but they. were able to retrieve it and it was fine. cuz it, you know, just floats down and. landed. It's like, "Okay, I'm here now.". >> And uh they checked it over and put it. back down and it went working. And so um. so anyway, back to my story. So we put a. robot down there. Um our production one.

will be wider, more like 15 m wide, maybe even wider, and it crawls along. like snow track tires. And you know back in the 1970s when they. ran these collector trials so so it's. all pretty cool but then 1979 they they. actually launched the machine and they. to pick up these very same rocks back. when America was driving the innovation. that was really pioneering engineering.

But back then they used a Archimedes. screwdriver system to propel it forward. and they made a big imprint in the ocean. floor about 80 cmters and um but whereas. Als makes about a 2 cm imprint just. literally glides on the ocean floor. So. we fire a jet of water, separate it out, pump it up and um and eventually you. know I I anticipate we'll have a lot of. production vessels out there. We then.

offload them. You know that the analogy, two analogies I use. One is they're like. golf balls on a driving range. We've got. to pick them up with the greatest. efficiency in the lightest lowest. impact. And then it's a little bit like. harvesting a paddic of wheat. You know, you just keep harvesting and then the. the bin pulls up alongside. In our case, it'll be a a bulk carrier. We offload. the nodules. It goes off to port. Another one comes. It goes off to port. But you're always in production. Interesting.

And you know what's interest what's. what's interesting is this thing weighs. like looks like it would be heavy. >> It weighs almost nothing. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And so. I mean how much of this is metals? >> About 33% of it is metal. Uh it's got a. specific gravity of about 1.9. >> So no it's very light. It's because of. how they form, right? Because of them. precipitating. It starts around a kernel of something.

Could be a grain of sand or a broken. shell or. >> And how how uh. And so these are just. on the ocean floor like like sand. They're just right there on the top. You. don't have to do anything, you know, digging wise to get to them. They just. >> go in the hopper. They get sucked up to. the Yeah. to the mother ship and it. bring it over. >> Y. >> for processing.

>> That's right. >> How many of those I mean can you give me. a a a snapshot of how much of those. you're you're gaining an hour a day? I. mean, how many of those are you picking. up? >> Well, our production vessel will do. about um. 3 million tons a year. >> Three million tons a year. >> Yeah. >> Wow. And we'll be in production about. 270 days a year. >> Yeah.

So, >> and so with this international treaty. >> Yeah. >> and everybody has access to the ocean. I. mean, what. >> would And you found you found the mother. load of these things or back in I think. you said 1870. >> Yeah. The British found them in 1870. Yeah. >> British found them in 1870. I mean, will. we start to see, you know, as this gains. traction when it sounds like it will. I. think you said 2027 will be the first. production vehicle. >> Yeah.

>> How are the competitors, if there are. any? I mean, will they will everybody be. vacuuming these things up off the ocean. floor in the exact same spot? Will it. become crowded? I mean, how do you. >> is there any possibility that you will. secure, you know, any specific rights to. to an area? Yeah, it it's highly regulated now. Very highly regulated. So since 2011, we've been working through the.

International Seabet Authority. And if. you recall when I said the United. Nations stepped in and took over the. process, um they created this um. framework called UNLOS, the United. Nations Convention of the Law of the. Sea. And it basically said um. you know every country owns 12 mi from. your coastline has an economic right to. everything within 200 but beyond that it.

will be considered the area and um and. this uncloth called for the. establishment of the international. seabed authority to be established which. it was in 1994. Now remember the United States never. agreed to it. In fact, they've been a. consistent objector to it. So, they're. not part of it. But for 169 other. countries, including China and Russia, they signed this treaty that said, "When. it comes to minerals, these are the.

rules we'll play by.". And America went, "Nah, we're not going. to do that." They were like, "We don't. even like multilateral organizations. You know, one vote, one country doesn't. seem to work for the big for the biggest. economy in the world." And. oh my goodness, how insightful they. were. How insightful they were because. this international organization has been. entirely overrun by NOS's. And it's played right into China's hand.

So China have five licenses through this. body, the international seabed. authority. But what started to happen. was, and this is more a representation of. politics around the world, how the world. went a bit crazy. You saw. governments in Europe. be very uh heavily influenced by smaller.

governments who had to form coalitions. to govern. So you don't have two parties. like in some countries like UK is still. that, Australia is still that, US is. pretty well still that. But in other. countries like Germany and France, you. had. um. or Belgium or the Netherlands, you you. have like a dozen different parties to. form a coalition to get the votes to be. able to govern. So you had green voters.

who might only hold two or three seats. So a very tiny tiny tiny majority, but. but they might have the balance of. power. Without their two votes, they could you might not have majority. And so what the Green Party started to. do was to say we really care about this. ocean metal. And there's no better. example than France. So France have a. pretty good nuclear industry, right? And. if you go back um. four years ago now uh Macron the.

president came out with a very public. statement which I was very excited about. said here's our 2030 plan. France needs to re-industrialize. we need to bring back jobs. for that we need metals we have these. ocean deposits. we can get these ocean metals far more. effectively. than we can possibly find metals on. land. It was a pretty good speech. 18 months later at COP, I think it was.

COP 23, total switch. We should ban deep sea mining was. McCron's new pitch. And the reason why. he changed his position was because once. again he was losing. influence, losing power. So he had to do. a deal with the Greens and they wanted. him to pull back his nuclear ambition. He said, "I can't touch that. we need. it. And it was like, how about I give. you ocean medals? It's literally like. that.

>> And you know, and I've seen firsthand. how they've worked with corporations. Um, you know, WWF did the same to MK. You know, MK were one of our. shareholders. They were one of our early. supporters. Great company, one of the. great shipping companies of the world. And but MK WWF went in there and said, "We don't like you being part of the. metals company. we'd like you to sell. your ownership or we're going to come. after you for your green shipping. ambitions. And it's like I had a friend.

sat in the room with them like they are. bullies these NOS's. They are absolute. bullies. And so so that was that's how. they overtook some of these countries. So these countries like Germany is. another great example, right? Germany. used to be an industrial Bahamoth. Now they're de-industrialization because. of energy policy and other things. And. there is an industry body there that. represents every industry association. who has pleaded with the government to. support ocean metals like they used to.

because America can't get reliable. supply. Sorry, Germany can't get. reliable supply. Yet their government were appeasing the. green side of things saying, "Oh, we. should slow down and just wait." Now. this all played into China's hands. because we we are the most um ambitious. player in the industry right we were. driving the industry forward. China. despite the fact that they want to. dominate this because you know President.

Xi made a public statement saying we. want to dominate deep ocean, deep earth. and deep space part of their plan. but they're running a little bit behind. us 5 to seven years. >> That's good to hear. It's good to hear. and it was going pretty well for them. because the NOS's were in there. influencing the countries who were. influencing the international seabed. authority adopting the final rules. and without those final rules it's very.

hard for me to get started. and so this is playing into this is when. I mentioned it was playing into China's. playbook this is how they were doing it. China sat back going oh it's going to. take a bit longer is it no problem just. let it happen you know But for me, I I. depend on shareholder support. And unfortunately, shareholders were not would not have. been willing to give me another 5 years. to sit around and see what happens. I. would have had to pivot the business. into something else, which I was.

preparing to do because I did not like. what I was seeing. What would you have. pivoted into? Well, we were running the ruler over a number. of other assets, um, land-based. opportunities. My board didn't like it particularly, but we would have done what we had to to. survive cuz we would have just kept the. licenses and kept them rolly on. Um, I. would have had to shrink the business.

You know, the team. that we've had together over the last. many years would have had to go. And um. but you know when things get so bad. they've got to selforrect. It's like the rubber band. It was just. pulling and pulling and pulling and we. just knew it would break. Question of. when. And luckily it broke in the form. of President Trump being elected and it. had gone so far crazy. So we we knew.

there was a pathway because America put. the rules and regulations in place in. 1980 that that the international seabed. authorities still can't agree and you. can understand why they can't agree. There's 169 countries trying to agree. something even though they have a. smaller council 36 member council. So getting agreement when the NOS's are. there. chipping away trying to slow progress or. stop the industry that's their plan and.

and you know we knew. we knew how what the strategy of the NGO. the activist was the their strategy was. to bleed the metals company dry you know. to just slow things down to let us run. out of money and we were lucky to have. amazingly supportive shareholders I. mentioned Andre before and allies and um. myself agreed to keep funding the. business and we lent the company money. and cuz we we believed we didn't want to.

keep printing equity. We wanted to you. know just keep the business moving. waiting for. a moment in time when the value could be. restored to something more equitable. And so we knew there was a legal pathway. to lodge the application through the. United States because they had the rules. in place. So this is a very long windy. answer to your question about who's. going to dominate it because because now.

of course that international body. including China have been very critical. of us and of the United States of. America. for. operating outside of the system. It's. like but America's like they came out. with very forceful statements saying. we've never been part of that system. We've been a consistent objector to that. system. We have a legal right to be able. to go and collect these metals. You. 169 countries all agreed to be bound by.

those set of rules that you can't even. agree on. So why don't you just keep. doing whatever it is you're doing and. we'll see you out there. >> That's good to hear. Yeah, >> that's good to hear that we're doing. that. >> It is. It is. And um and the. administration have been amazing, ranging from the regulator, uh Noah, Secretary Lapnik, we were lucky to have. a lot of people that the president chose. in his cabinet who we knew well when.

they're in opposition. They'd been big. supporters of ours and they'd written. letters on our behalf and lobbyed. Congress to make funding available to do. studies on processing here in the United. States. And so, you know, it's all of. our stars aligned all of a sudden. Let's take a quick break. When we come. back, I want to get into how this. concerns national defense.

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know we covered some of it, but I just. wanted to, you know, revisit that. I'm. big on national defense and and um. something I talk about a lot here, so. I'd like to just go into more detail on. that. So, how is this going to help our. US's national defense? Well, as I mentioned in 200 and since. 2002, we've lost. um. so much of the manufacturing industry.

We've lost millions of jobs. We've lost. hundreds of billions of dollars of. annual GDP. And. you know, and I think. all of a sudden when you realize the. reason we've lost them is because we've. exported those industries because it was. very convenient to outsource to the. developing world heavy industry because. it was a little bit dirty and you know. this was before some of the greener.

pollution controlling you know controls. became. uh statutory. And but it also makes you really. vulnerable. You know, the fact that you. can't build a ton of steel without. manganesees. means that and the fact that we import. 100% of our manganesees puts you very. vulnerable, you know, and I think it was. a great initiative that the the. president wants to bring back ship. building. And if you think about, you.

know, what turned the second world war, it was America's navy, right, at the end. of the day. and they were able to build. ships efficiently and now ships don't. get built in America, you know, they. they're built in other parts of the. world. And so so I think national. defense and national security is a. it's a very complex intertwined,

you know, network of you've got to have. desire, you've got to have really strong. partners. And it so happens that. because China dominates the if they. don't dominate mining, they certainly. dominate all of the processing and. refining. So it means that, you know, I. gave you that example of one town we. visited where, you know, China went from. 0 to 70,000 people in less than a. decade.

You know, they control 70% of the nickel. market. Um, and. they are doing. they play the long game, you know, they. they they they're playing with the. classification standards, they're. playing with the IMO standards, trying. to put in place initiatives that would. become very expensive for the shipping. industry, but only they can supply the. equipment, you know, and we saw. Secretary Rubio come out and stamp on. that the other day. I was very pleased. to see that. Um,

so it's very complex and they're very. smart and tactical, the Chinese. And um, and you asked before, does America have. the the will and endeavor to to fix. this? And and I think. the trend of this administration does. They see the problem and they've got. people in power who see the problem and. they're putting in long-term strategic. fixes. You know, I know in our case,

we've had many meetings um become a. frequent visitor to the White House. because, you know, they are making it. very clear that they want to support us. to come and build processing capacity in. on USA soil, but they also recognize that capital. needs to be available to do that. And. when you're competing against a country. like China where capital is freely. available from the state,

then you've got to have something. equally. uh enticing from US government to. encourage it as well. So, I think that. building. a reliable supply of all of these. critical minerals and including rare. earths. We saw them do a deal with NP. the other day. Um, you know, it was a. smart deal. I think we've heard from the. administration that they're going to do.

more deals like that because they want. to see investment on the ground. They. want to see jobs created. There are so. many good knock-on benefits like we. talked about before. >> bring jobs back you know and I think. >> giving people purpose and is another. benefit that's going to come out of this. you know. >> well you know what's interest couple. things are jobs I want to talk about but. you know you you had mentioned the the. ship building you know that that used to.

take place in this country and that a. lot of things seem to be coming back. with this administration In fact, I Are. you uh familiar with the company. Seronic? >> Yes. >> You know, Dino Mukus, he's doing the. autonomous surface war surface warfare. vehicles. And I mean, that guy is. he. >> it's awesome what he's doing. And you. know I remember I don't remember the. exact stats but you know I remember him.

telling me that China had over 50% of. the ship of the of the global ship. building capacity. >> and that the US had less than 1% of ship. building capacity of the world and you. know and he's trying to change that and. he's making these boats that you know. they're they're they I mean he's he's. going to pump them out at record pace. And so. I'm sure your metals company is going to.

be able to, >> you know, enable them to make them even. cheaper than what they already are. doing. >> And hopefully we we can get back to. being, >> you know, some type of a naval. superpower with with. many boats, not not just, you know, >> 1% or whatever it is. 0.5%. I can't. It. was less than 1% of the of the US ship. building capacity. >> Another question that I have for you. though is are any of the metals that you.

are mining in the ocean or getting ready. to mine in 2027, do those will those. play any type of a role in the computer. chip business? >> Yeah, totally. Yeah, I mean we do we do. have a lot of rare earths in here as. well. Um we don't recover them in our. first uh plant. We we um but there is a. plan to recover them. And of course um. there are. a lot of the cobalt and um and of course.

copper is used in that entire AI space. extensively. um will be used a lot and so so yes is. yes is the answer. Just I just want to. go back to that ship building because. you know one of the exciting things. about some of these industries is that. you know. when China started taking these. industries away from the US and other. countries.

they had a big workforce you know. farmers were becoming. non-farmers or peasants. were looking for other industries. jobs. to move into and so they were happy to. to use a very available, cheap, abundant. labor force. But of course, a lot of things have. happened since then in the automation. space. And if and the ship building. industry is a really good one to look. at. You know, if you look at what um.

Hanoir and Hyundai and you know, the the. other Korean ship builders have done is. they've bought a lot of automation into. those industries where uh and the same. is going to be on metal processing. you. know that that now with automation. you can take some of the dangerous jobs. away and. what you end up doing is just generating. a lot of GDP for local economies. So.

there's a lot of direct jobs but there's. an enormous amount of indirect jobs that. come as a result as well. But it also it. it's. it means that you can compete. because you're not having to compete. with, you know, 100,000. almost free labor force. You know, you're actually competing for um the on. a technology basis. and and once again.

China have been amazing at building and. deploying technology at a rapid rate but. the west and America are starting to. recognize the need to do that and in. when it comes to certainly critical. minerals they've made it very clear that. they're going to make the capital. available to encourage and entice we we. took a big investment from a um company. called career zinc recently and. they're in many metals other than zinc. but they have a rich long industry and. outside of China, they're one of the.

only companies that can produce the PCAM. materials using their own technology. And so, it's a really important. partnership for us. And in fact, their. chairman and I uh attended um some White. House meetings. a couple of weeks ago and you know they. have moved their position and they've. moved it primarily because of the Trump. trade strategy.

Their view was. we've already got a recycling business. here. It's not working because China's. under bidding us or out bidding us for. all the recycled material, which is. another strategy China's very smart at. They're like, you know, we'll overpay to. get it to get them out of the country. and send them back to China. >> Wow. >> Yeah. It's very clever. It's very. clever. But if I I know that a year ago, you know, Careers Inc. would not have. contemplated building here in the USA. But now along with us they are very keen.

to bring their expertise and turn it. into jobs on the ground and local supply. chain and you know that of course is the. beginning because it spawns many many. other industries. When you have. available supply of these metals, then. you can look at all of the ancillary. industries and you know my standard. presentation there's like. a thousand other industries that can be.

built off that other industry. But but. if you don't have the material. and then of course uh if the government. truly have um. you know the these dumping reviews that. are underway at the moment if they truly. do impose um some sort of penalty over. importers and it's not just China. there'll be other players as well uh. dumping material into the US then if.

that can all be sorted out then you're. going going to see a very very vibrant. industrial reindustrialization go on. here and um and you know and I think. everyone wants to trade with the USA. right and um so America will go from. import replacement to becoming under our. plan the the biggest supplier of nickel. and cobalt and manganesees and a big.

exporter of it as. And so it it's a massive turnaround and. that's going to lead to tremendous GDP. growth. It's going to lead to, you know, new companies being formed, new jobs being formed, new industries to. support those industries. It's a massive. knock-on impact. And you know, and it's. but it's only possible if you've got the. kahunas to to say, you know, this is how. we've got to turn this around. you know,

we've got to get things back on a on a. level playing ground. And um yeah, I got. to tell you, when President Trump. started talking tariffs, you know, it was like it's going to be. interesting to see how this plays out, but I got to say it's working out pretty. well. It's working out pretty well. When you say that new companies will be. formed from from the from the new. industry that you're creating right now, what what kind of companies do you.

envision popping up around this? It's just it's not just what companies. but it's the efficiencies of redesigning. new industrial process and and if we. think about. manganesees for example. you know there there are two ways of. treating our nodules you either dissolve. them in acid or you use heat now.

actually because of parts of America's. abundant supply of affordable energy. which is ironic, right? I mean, energy. is the cornerstone of a healthy. industrializing economy. You need. energy. And of course, that's why parts. of Europe are de-industrializing because. they they can't compete. But America has. it. So, it's a great great starting. point. And that's why America will be. able to compete with countries like. China as well. Capex is higher, but the.

government recognized that. So, they'll. make it easier. But operationally. actually you can compete largely because. energy is abundant and affordable. But when we use heat we generate really. hot. I mean the the furnaces go up to. 1,200300°. C. and. as that material comes out it cools down.

again. And but then when you go and use it, you've got to heat it back up again. So. one of the immediate opportunities is to. be able to use it when it's still hot. and you save all the energy of it. cooling down and you avoid having to. spend energy heating it back up again. So there are opportunities to build. adjacent industries near where we are to. be able to use those materials in their. current form. But if we then look at. manganesees, what else is it being used.

for? Well, it's used in water. purification. It's used in fertilizer. It's used in. um batteries are now moving to a. manganese rich uh battery cathode. So, it used to be very high in nickel, still. is, but it's uh now starting to use more. manganesees and less nickel because. manganesees is cheaper. So, all of a. sudden, America could be very. competitive. And we've already produced. our first, it's called manganese. sulfate, uh which goes into a battery.

uh we we so we've been working on that. for some time. There's no real magic to. to doing it. Um we just got to do it. But but at the moment there is zero. industry and to make manganese. uh silicon we import 100% of that in. from China at the moment. But to be able. to build that right next door to a. reliable supply of manganesees is more. jobs. Um, we don't make much stainless. steel here in America because we don't. have the We import the iron ore, we.

import the nickel and we import the. manganesees. So, all of a sudden there. is a pathway to be able to to generate. that, you know, the the material that goes. into the stainless steel and the steel. making industry. It's like all of these. things are very interconnected. And then. when it comes to nickel, I mean firstly. it's used it's a super alloy. So you. need it for you know these beautiful. planes that we see the US air force.

flying around. Um. there's nickel is a vital ingredient as. is cobalt in those structures. But. there's a lot of simpler industries as. well, you know, whether it's um energy. related businesses, solar, um in fact, I. I I have a page on one of my. presentations. There's literally a. thousand industries that. >> a thousand industries, >> a thousand that depend on nickel,

cobalt, maganesees or copper as an. important input import. And I think, you know, because at the end of the day, you know, one of the great things we've. learned from people like Elon Musk is. how to get in and drive cost out of. processes. You know, he'll he'll look at. things and go, "Well, the bill of. materials says $100. Why am I paying. $5,000 for this?" You know, and of. course, that's what's enabled him to. build rockets and cars and everything.

else much more economically. And then of. course he's a he's a great manufacturing. genius. And so so I think you know we. seek we receive inspiration out of that. as well. And I think you know there are. many many efficiencies that when you. start focusing on and. re-industrialization. the fact that we exported it all. and as I as I mentioned before more than. 20,000 companies have disappeared more. than 2 and a half million jobs have.

disappeared in the last 20 years. 2 and a2 million. >> 2 and a2 million jobs have disappeared. from the manufacturing sector. in the last 20 years. >> Jeez. So the amount of jobs this could create. is really. unfathomable with all the new industry. that could this. >> I think I think the opportunity is a lot. more new industries. those two and a. half million jobs might come back at a. lower number, right, because of.

automation and other things, but it's. about GDP growth as well. And that GDP. growth will lead to more industries. around it. It's about direct jobs. and indirect jobs. And so I think that's. the exciting part for the American. economy. And you know, a reliable, affordable supply of these critical. minerals is the beginning of a great. era, I believe, for the United States.

>> I think you're right. I think you're. right. When it comes to the the refining. of these things, how fast will you be. able to turn that into a usable product? Well, the good news is um the approach. that I have taken. is to bring partners in who can help. speed that up. So, for example, I. mentioned a company who have worked with. us on the offshore and sees employs of.

people for 40 years. They've been laying. pipe for the oil and gas industry in the. deep ocean. So, they're used to 365day, 24-hour day operations laying pipe. It's. it's magic to see. They built the. world's biggest production vessel. They. built a boat that can lift 30,000 tons. at a time. So instead of decommissioning. an oil platform at sea, which they used. to take apart piece by piece, they build. a boat that allows you to cut the legs.

off, lift it, bring it back to shore, and then do all of that, you know, de. dis deassembling there. Much safer and. much faster. Takes risk out of it and. danger out of it for everyone. So they bring all of that expertise to. help us on the offshore. And the same is. the case with the onshore. We've been. working with a group in Japan called. Pacific Metals. But more recently, we. took this big investment from Careers. Inc. And Careers Inc. want to come to.

America. They want to put infrastructure. on the ground. They also are the world's. biggest antimony producer and a a very. large gallium producer as well which are. two critical minerals needed here in the. United States. So they bring a lot of. strategic. importance as well but they can help us. build much much faster and you know the. Trump administration are very committed. to taking away the permitting challenges. and I think for construction and.

approval and I think that's where the. red tape has really slowed things down. so you know there's been desire but. there's been so many people who need to. stamp the page and I think there are. tremendous efficiency talent unteer of. course have really helped perfect that. as well. You know, we we're we're. talking to those guys about how they. could help us streamline that whole. permitting process and you know, they've. been very successful in other industries. and they can help us in our industry and.

um and so much quicker than we could do. it by ourselves. Production I mentioned 2027, we've. already got our first boat. So, that's good. And I think it's. probably a 4-year window to put. processing and refining infrastructure. on the ground here in the United States. >> So, 2031, you think? >> I hope sooner than that. I hope sooner. than that. when when you say 2027 will.

be the first actual. >> mining. successful mining operation I mean. >> how fast do you see that scaling. >> so does it start with one vehicle. >> it does yeah it does unfortunately but. already um this morning I'd been on the. phone with allies you know we're mapping. out you know how do they build more. scale and um I I held a a strategy day.

in New York on August 4 and we had the. owner of all seas, Edward Hermer, there. and. um you know we asked the question like. what's the appetite? Do you want to have. a fleet of these boats out there? And. he's like yes we want a fleet of these. boats and that's what we want as well. >> Love to hear that. Love to hear that. >> Yeah. and and you know you get the first. one done. you know and the the strategy we've. adopted at the metals company.

is. we don't want to be the boat owner there. are people who are really good at owning. boats you know and they make a business. out of it whereas what I want to be is. focused on the permitting owning the. resource. um letting contracts out to companies. who can come and collect our nodules for. us in return for long-term contracts and. um owning part of the processing onshore. and then very much in the marketing of.

those materials. into you know the marketplace because I. I I'm absolutely certain that when. people see the lower environmental and. human benefits of ocean metals they're. going to want to buy products that are. made with these metals and um you know. remember that great campaign Intel. inside that they used to run. You you. you should buy a computer with an Intel. chip. >> I think it'll be the same when it comes.

to our ocean metals because we can. measure every single thing. We can. guarantee whose hands have touched it. We can tell you how much CO2 was. generated. We can tell you how many. trees we felled. Zero. We can tell you. how much child labor we used. Zero. We. can tell you how much contamination was. caused in the water tables. Zero. And. once we start measuring and making these. commitments, other people are going to. be forced to do the same.

>> or they'll go out of business. >> or they'll be limited to where they can. sell their product. They'll sell their. products into markets where people turn. a blind eye, but that won't be in the. United States of America. >> Well, they likely won't be able to. compete either because you'll drive the. price of these metals down. I think. that's a realistic. expectation that that prices can go. lower. You know, if you can if you can. deliver efficiencies in the way you. handle these materials because in in in.

years to come, there won't be many. people on these boats. Now Jared, we're wrapping up the. interview and so my final question is, you know, I bring a lot of innovators in. here and there's some amazing companies. that that that are coming to fruition. right now in the US and. almost all of them have been private. companies. And so is this a company that. people can invest in?

So, in um so we're a public company and. um our ticker is TMC. We're listed on. the NASDAQ and. uh it's fun being a public company. >> Is it. some days? Some days I mean it is um. there's been some dark days and uh but. the days have been a whole lot brighter. since November 6, put it that way. And.

um but look, we you know, we um. look, it's it's I think it's. it's an amazing place to invest your. money. It's a it's an amazing company at. the beginning of a new industry. You. know, we've we've got a really loyal. group of shareholders. You know, the the. key shareholders own just under half of. the company. Our retail brigade of shareholders are.

an absolute army of loyalists. We've got. a growing list of institutional. shareholders and. and we're going to form perform a very. important part in re-industrialization, you know, and we're going to be wearing. that badge very very proudly. So, >> well, Jared, I love what you're doing. It's good for the planet. It's good for. the country. It's bringing jobs back. and it's not good for China and I love. that. So, thank you for coming and uh I.

wish you the best of luck and I can't. wait to see what happens in 2027. So, >> thanks Sean. >> Thank you. >> Cheers. [Music]. No matter where you're watching Shawn. Ryan show from, if you get anything out. of this, please like, comment, subscribe, and most importantly, share.

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