George Christie - Surviving 40 Years in the Hells Angels | SRS #333

[music]. So, at what point did you realize you. wanted to be a Navy Seal and pursue? >> Probably around sophomore, junior, high. school. >> Was it like a particular event? Uh, >> no. Just Well, let's see. How did it I mean, I was just. always into the military. Grew up. playing with G.I. Joe's and carbon. spears and [ __ ] like that out in the.

woods. But. >> um to be [laughter] and then I lost. sight of it. But to be honest, I was. just a [ __ ] turd, you know, in high. school. I didn't really have anything. going for me. >> No direction. >> Uh-uh. And uh other than booze and. trying to get some chicks, which I. wasn't very successful with. And. >> well, who is in high school, >> right? >> Right. Everybody's lying, you know. And. um and uh my dad was uh we just buted. heads and one day [ __ ] kicked my ass.

around and and uh as he you know and uh. said I'm not paying for your [ __ ]. school. I'm not doing you know basically. like you're on your own like [ __ ] you. And I was like. >> cool u I already joined the Navy. anyways. So well I didn't already join. but I was like yeah I'm already talking. to a recruiter anyways. I'm going to be. a SEAL. How did how did he respond to. that? >> Totally like changed everything. It was. like you did what? And uh. >> proud or concerned or nervous or both?

>> Uh yeah, probably all three. >> And what year was this? >> Did I join or? >> Yeah. That you did this uh when you told. your dad this is what I'm going to do. I. guess what I'm I'm trying to. >> probably like. >> put in my mind what was going on in the. world at the time as a parent, >> you know, >> pre 911. So, probably like 99 2000. >> Well, yeah. Okay. Well, [ __ ] was kind of. getting kind of. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But, uh, I mean, I don't know what the. hell was going on. I was in high school. >> Sure. >> The George Bush election. But, um, yeah,

that's kind of it. >> Yeah. You know, it for me, probably 1955, 1956, I don't know what year, probably nine, eight or nine maybe. Uh, I saw. my first outlaw biker. I was in San. Frernando Valley standing on the corner. with my dad. He's talking to uh this. Italian rest. He has a restaurant as. well. My dad was in the restaurant. business and they're discussing the. restaurant business and uh I'm just, you.

know, just a goofy kid. Uh and I hear. this noise coming and I'm I look up the. street and you see this guy coming and. he gets to the uh stop sign, stops and. he does a series of things. He pushes. his glasses up on his head and he's like. messing with something to his left side. over here, which I've learned later it's. a jockey shifter. You know, it's a hand. shifter. And I hear this distinctive. rattling. And what they are is I've.

learned later it's the bearings in the. clutch basket. >> It's, you know, he's engaged the clutch. and it's spinning. It's not engaged, it's spinning. And these bell bearings. are making this whirling uh sound that's. very distinct. They don't do it anymore. because you know they're it's a whole. different motorcycle nowadays. But so. I'm just watching this guy's got a Levi. vest cut off and everybody's tripping on. this guy and you know he's not paying. attention to anybody and the light.

changes. He dumps it in gear, pops his. glasses down, and he just shoots across. the intersection. And I'm like, I'm. like, "What the hell was that?" You. know, and I look at the Italian guy and. he looks at me and he goes, "That's your. America." And he spit on the ground. >> And I thought to myself, "That's. [clears throat] my America." And, you. know, metaphorically, I jumped on the. back of that bike. It was another 10. years. You I didn't get a bike till 1966. cuz I, you know, I was a kid. Yeah,

>> but uh that pushed me into the direction. I wanted to go. It was just so profound. and so. it was just something else, man. >> Oh [ __ ]. >> Yeah. You know, it's just like that one. event for me probably changed my life. >> Yeah. >> You know, if we hadn't gone down to LA. that day and saw that guy, you know, >> who knows how how turn. >> Yeah. Maybe I've been a cop. [laughter]. >> That would have been a change of events. But uh I got a hot question for you.

actually. >> Okay. >> There are a handful of patches on biker. vests that everyone recognizes and a few. that people whisper about because. they're considered notorious. For. someone who doesn't know the culture, can you break down what the main patches. mean, what they represent inside the. club, and generally how a guy earns the. right to wear each one? Well, the uh. the Hell's Angel patch, the top rocker, the center patch, which is called the.

death head. Then you have uh your MC. motorcycle club patch below that. And. then you have a bottom rocker that. identifies what state you're from or. what area. you're claiming to basically kind of. control. And you know, the big dogs run the state. rockers and you know, the smaller uh uh. you know, they're subservient to the. bigger clubs. They might have uh you. know, Tanga Canyon or of a town in De.

Moines or whatever. >> But each club is pretty much structured. like the Outlaws, they have a a piston. Have you ever seen the Outlaw patch? It's a It's a piston double uh It's a. It's a skull with two pistross pistons. >> almost kind of uh looks like it could be. mistaken for a pirate type patch. It's a. really distinctive uh uh. very iconic uh like the Death Head.

itself. And they were kind of like the. number two uh uh in the world of outlaw. bike clubs. And on the front you've got. these various patches that some of them. are very esoteric and nobody knows what. they mean. Uh certainly over the years. things are getting out. You know people. become informants and they debrief and. they tell the police well that's what. this means and that's what uh that. means. But the problem is with the. gentlemen doing that they uh uh they.

embellish sometimes. They have their own. agenda. No way. >> Embellishing. >> Uh they have their own agenda. So, you. know, they want to seem uh informed. They want to engage these cops because. they're trying to extract themselves. from a problem. So, a patch that. [clears throat] and I'm going to use. this. I'm leading up to something. The. filthy few is in the outlaw bike world. morphed into an urban legend. And what.

it means is uh you have killed on the. behest of the club, if you will. >> Okay. >> And that entitles you to wear a filthy. few patch. >> Would that be one of the highest. patches? >> Yeah. Yeah. That and there's another. patch called the Dequo. uh patch. This is Hell's Angel stuff. Uh, I'm speaking of they have the dequo. patch which. means you're willing to fight law. enforcement.

for what you believe in. You know, like. maybe a cop will say, you know, and it. happens. They'll go take that patch off. We don't allow that patch into town. And. then of course the exchange starts. Well, I'm not taking it off. Oh, you're. going to take it off. And then next. thing you know, they're fighting. If. somebody did that and [clears throat] he. physically uh engaged a cop in combat uh. hand-to-hand combat or whatever you want. to call it, he would have the right to. wear the D quao patch. The filthy fuse. started out with.

the first to arrive and the last to. leave. They were like a crew of guys. that their whole life was just about. partying, you know, riding motorcycles, partying. They were the first guys to. come, the last guys to leave. They. started calling themselves the filthy. few and they were from the Bay Area, San. Francisco, all the area [clears throat]. up in that Northern California. The. Southern California guys in response to. the filthy few started organization.

uh themselves called the Raggedy. Wranglers. >> and they were that was the competition. uh between the two. Now I recently uh. >> competition between. >> the clubs the with the inner conflict. >> No [ __ ] So the Hell's Angels North Cal, Hell's Angels South Cal, they [ __ ]. don't like each other. >> Well, not that they don't like each. other. It's like. >> it's like a healthy rivalry. >> Yeah. Yeah. You want to be a real Hell's. Angel, you ought to come up here with. us, you know. >> Like East Coast, West Coast Seal teams.

>> Exactly. And that's where I was heading. with as I was going. >> We'll fight you, but if it comes down to. it, we'll also fight together. Yeah, we'll fight each other and uh when the. chips are down, I'm right there with. you, brother. I'm going down with you, even though I may have kicked you a. couple weeks ago. >> uh in that bar fight. But so I. [clears throat] work as an expert. witness sometimes for the defense, which. is kind of something new. Uh in the. past, the prosecution always bought in. brought in their gang expert. Uh, and.

then, you know, he goes through, uh, you. know, for 4 years I did this and I was. undercover here and I did that. They. bring me in there and I, you know, I. tell the the judge, "Well, your honor, I've, you know, I was in the Hell's. Angels for 40 years prior to that. I was. an independent in the outlaw bike world. for 10 years." And then the judge says, [clears throat] "Okay, he's an expert.". Uh, and they allow you to testify. U, there's a big controversy in law. enforcement. They say that anybody with a filthy few.

patch on has killed somebody at the. behest of the club. And uh I got a big. argument with the prosecutor and you. know the judge finally uh kind of. settled the thing. I explained to the. jury like I just did uh to you that. initially it was guys first to come the. last to leave and it sort of morphed. into this urban legend that if you wear. a filthy few patch you killed somebody.

The problem with that theory and there. you know what I'm sure some of the guys. wearing the filthy few patch you know. have uh uh committed crimes uh up uh of. you know to murder you. I don't know. You know, I'm not speaking for. everybody, [sighs and gasps] but my. point was everybody in the Hell's Angels. now wears a filthy few patch. I mean, you go somewhere and you see 20 guys in. a charter with a filthy few patch on or. talking in a circle. And my argument.

was, where are the bodies? You know, I mean, these people are. getting these patches because uh you're. professing that they killed somebody. Well, you know, where's the indictments? Where's the bodies? Where's the cases? Uh, so it's become an urban legend. And. you know, I told the jury at the end, I. said, you know, who am I to uh interrupt. an urban legend? You know, let it be. what it's going to be. You'll have, as a. juror, you're going to have to determine. whether he did that crime or not, not.

whether he's wearing a particular patch. or not. That's what it really boils down. to. >> You know, of course, I got accused of. perjury and, you know, we're going to. indict you. You're lying under oath. I. said, "Well, prove it." You know, I. mean, >> so are you saying they they may have. flooded the club with the patch? >> Yes. >> Would they do that to. >> Not intentionally. I. >> They would not do it intentionally. They. wouldn't do it as like a scop to other. clubs that make. >> kind of like, "Hey, I'm willing to do. this." Uh. >> or I've done it. >> Yeah. Or have done it.

>> And that's for you to determine by how I. conduct myself. I'm sure, and I don't. mean any disrespect to uh anybody in the. military, but I'm sure, you know, you. run across somebody else that's a SEAL, you you're going to size them up. You. know, you want to make sure this guy. going to have my back. Is this guy did. he take his training seriously? And how. committed is he? You know, I would. assume most singles are committed 100%. >> But, you know, you would have to tell me. yes or no, George. >> I mean, most of them. Yeah. You know,

there's always uh there's always one. turb bowl, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. I I understand completely. You know, it's always the guy when you. you you got a new guy come around the. club. In the beginning, I was like, "Ah, this. is great. I'm embracing this guy and uh. you know, just so happy to see him, you. know, 10 years down the road, I'm. thinking, is this a guy gonna flip?". >> Yeah. >> What's he made of? Is what kind of metal. is he really? uh how you know how do we.

test this guy to find out he's going to. hold up? >> What is what is if you don't want to. name names I get it. But what is one of. the most rarest patches that. nobody knows about? [sighs]. Well, you know, and and. >> they had the Bastard Brigade uh uh was, you know, I get people write me all the. time, uh what is the uh bastard brigade, uh you know, this is a small group of.

individuals. I mean, I I guess you could. describe it as a small cartel within the. organization. And really, maybe only. those guys know what what it what it is, what it's about, and what it entails to. become one of them. I know that [gasps]. you go back east, you've got bad, you. got a group of guys that call themselves. bad company. I mean, you know, guys back. east are there's some bad asses back. there. You know, you if you look at your. history with the New York guys, the. Cleveland guys, the LOL guys. I mean,

uh, look at the history of Cleveland. I. mean, these guys worked for Danny Green. Are you familiar with Danny Green? >> No. >> Danny Green was an Irish mobster in the. 70s. >> Oh, yeah. They made a movie about that. >> Yeah. kill the Irishman. >> Yeah, the Teamsters. Yeah, >> he was up against the Teamsters. >> The Teamsters and the mob. Well, the. Hell's Angels worked for the Italians. and they worked for Danny Green in uh uh. they worked both sides of the fence, you. know, because. they didn't support Danny Green or they.

didn't support the Italians as an. organization, but people within the. organization were hiring out. You know, Danny Green would say, "I need I can't. get in this area. I need somebody to do. something." And uh you know somebody. take the job you know. So. >> uh. >> did they create uh little patches? Sure. they did. And they they were. distinctive to that. >> specific. >> specific group of guys perhaps specific.

acts. uh uh you know in the early days. those patches initially were and I I'm. sure you're aware of this uh everybody. would wear wings and they had to do with. uh sexual acts and uh uh you know the. red wings the black wings the uh broken. wings whatever they may be an individual. in the club called Terry the [ __ ] you. know he had a whole array of of of. wings and if Do you ever see Hell's.

Angel 69? >> Yes. >> Yeah. Terry was in that. He was the uh. kind of stole the show. He was the guy. with the big gauntlets and long hair and. uh red motorcycle. Created a that movie created a conflict. between him and Sunny. Uh. >> no [ __ ]. >> Because he seemed to be getting a lot. more attention than Sunny wanted him to. get. If you've listened to this show for a. while, you know I'm a big believer in.

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[music] the app once, hit the button, close it. Glacier. Download it today on. the App Store. And remember, privacy. isn't paranoia, it's protection. What was so what would happen if. somebody was wearing patches or a color. that they didn't earn? What would. happen? >> I would say anything from a uh stern.

lecture to uh. you know a hole in the desert, you know. >> Gotcha. [clears throat]. >> Gotcha. >> Yeah. Just it just depend the. circumstances. But I I I think maybe. this is something you could relate to. I. think a lot of it has to do with how. people explain themselves or conduct. themselves while they're explaining the. situation. You know, you you you start. I'll use the worm interrog word. interrogation. You start sounding.

somebody about something. He's going to. drive how. the end process is. Because if you had. an intention to hurt this guy, you. wouldn't be talking to him. you know, somebody'd walk up behind him and shoot. him in the head or something. But if. you're negotiating with somebody, it's. because you're trying to avoid something. or you're trying to achieve something. And uh. if you're talking, you know, figure as. long as you're talking, you're not. fighting. >> Yeah, that makes sense. That makes. sense. So, you guys are looking for.

ownership. Somebody that owns their. [ __ ] [ __ ]. >> Yeah. Gotcha. >> And you know, is it still that way? I. you know, I don't know. You know, I I. left the club in 2011. I got. disillusioned. Uh [groaning]. I was disappointed in the direction. things were heading. You know, I walked. into that world in, you know, 1966. Uh immediately started running around. with the question marks were which were. endorsed as a 1% club by the Hell's. Angels, the Saint Slaves. Again, these.

are the guys I ran around with. Ultimately met the Hell's Angels up on. Kern River. met a guy named Old Man. John. Uh, you know, this is in the. mid70s, early '7s. He was already old. back then. You know, he was he was an. old man, but uh former uh [snorts]. Navy, I don't know if he was a CB or. Navy. Uh. he had been on in the Pacific Theater, you know, I don't know specifically. where, but uh you know, like a lot of. the guys, you're familiar with how the.

club started. You know, they were from. returning vets from the European and. Pacific theaters, >> World War II, right? [clears throat]. Yeah. Let's get into that in a minute. >> Okay, >> let me give you an introduction here. >> All right. >> George Christie became a full patched. Hell's Angel in the Los Angeles charter. in 1976 and 6 months later became. president of that charter before. founding the Ventura charter in 1978. Your tenure as president was was longest. in club's history, spanning seven US.

presidential terms, beginning with. Gerald Ford and ending with Barack. Obama. Survived RICO indictments, ATF. stings, internal rats, and murder. contracts, and time in prison. Since. you've resigned in 2011, you've written. books, starred in documentaries, and. consulted on other projects. You. launched [clears throat] felony prison. consultants and work with defense. attorneys to analyze their cases and. prepare strong legal strong legal. defenses. You work with defendants to.

assist them in coming to terms with. their situation and prepare for the. complexities of court as well as pro as. well as protocol of prison life. I. forgot to mention they're also a US. Marine and so [clears throat]. >> I had eight years with the Department of. Defense too. >> Oh, really? Yeah, >> I do I do have that in the outline. What. real quick though just one What is the I. know what it is, but it may be diluted. from my days of research. What does a.

1enter mean? Okay. When uh these small. groups of veterans started teaming up. together, you had the Pissed-Off. Bastards, you had the Galloping Goose, you had the Yellow Jackets, uh the Booze. Fighters, uh 13 Rebels, you had these small. >> The Booze Fighters was one of the. original uh clubs. They were they were. at Hollister and uh and I I use. Hollister.

whether fairly or unfairly as a starting. point for the West Coast uh birth of the. Outlaw biker. They went to Hollister in. 1948. Uh there were uh hill climbs and races. and I don't know what else they had. going there. Uh they went up there. In addition, the San Francisco Chronicle. sent a got wind of this new phenomena of. these bike clubs. They sent a reporter. to Hollister. Uh, a reporter went there.

They brought a camera guy. They were. snapping shots. They were interviewing. people. Uh, and they came back and wrote. this what became a salacious story about. how these marauding veterans rode into. the small town of Hollister and were. raping and pillaging. You know, they. took over the town and the reporter. asked the American Motorcycle. Association, "So, what's what's with. these rowdy bikers?" And uh they said.

their actual comment was it's only 1%. that ruin it for us wholesome writers. And these guys, these club guys, now I'm. just, you know, a baby or a little kid. Then they get this uh term 1enter and. they embrace it and they become the 1%. uh that ruin it for the wholesome. writers. >> And [clears throat] they're still. continuing to ruin it to this day. So, that's how that started. And they didn't.

start wearing the badges. Uh, and I'm. going to I have a challenge coin I want. to give you along with my book. >> And you'll. you'll look on the front of that. >> 1enter. >> 1enter. And then, you know, you'll see. the uh uh that's me standing in front of. the clubhouse. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. And uh I figured you'd appreciate. it and you'd understand it, you know. >> And uh I uh [sighs].

>> you know, I traced the challenge coin. back to the Roman legions. Uh. >> they go back that far. >> back to the Roman legions. The uh they. carry anybody that did a specific uh. bravery in a battle or fought in a. really hard fought battle, they would. give them a challenge coin that was also. valuable. It had, you know, had a a. monetary value, but in addition to that, [clears throat]. it identified you secretly as being part. of a legion.

>> Oh [ __ ]. >> Cuz you, you know, and if you got caught. carrying it and you weren't part of the. Legion, you know, you can imagine back. then what the consequences would be. >> Oh yeah. >> So, uh, maybe things haven't changed. that much, you know. But anyways, uh, so everybody embraced. that title in in the late 50s, early. 60s. Nobody seems to know for sure. I. initially thought they started doing it. right away. And then I myself, as I'm. creating this historical record of all. this outlaw lifestyle, I find out that.

it didn't really happen with the 1enter. badges uh, till the late 50s uh, you. know, early 60s. And you know, there. used to be 1enter meetings or on the. California West Coast, you had the uh. Hell's Angels in the Bay Area. In. Monterey, you had a club called the. Losers. And in uh Ventura County, you had a club. called the Question Marks. And then in. San Frernando Valley, you had a club uh.

called the Saint and Slaves. Uh and then. the Gallop and Goose and the Booze. Fighters. These guys were all part of. this 1enter coalition and you know they. have meetings but you know they really. were reasons to get together and party. >> Yeah. >> They weren't really meetings you know uh. you know be anybody got any business? No. Let's drink you know. >> Uh but. they became. >> It's interesting. I thought about doing. this. >> Did you really? >> I did. I uh.

>> And when when at what point in your. life? >> I was contracting for the agency. >> Yeah. And I left the SEAL teams, tried. uh tried to tried to do some real estate. stuff. I [ __ ] hated it. I could not. stand being with civilians uh at the. time. >> And uh that that and I was getting in. fights all the time. It was just all I. did was drink and fight. >> And um and then I. that so that's where I kind of started. to think about it cuz I just could not.

fit in. And um. >> did you did you hang around anybody or. >> Nope. Interact? >> I I bought Well, >> where were you from? >> I didn't have any money. >> You didn't need any money, man. So where. where were you at? >> Geographically. >> Oh, well uh St. Louis at that time. >> St. Louis. St. Louis. that probably. would have been the perhaps Alpha Steros. or the Outlaws or. >> Well, I was just reading and then uh and. then I wound up contracting for CIA and. it turns out there was a bunch of guys.

uh that I was contracting with that had. all thought about the same thing. And um. >> kind of goes along with the. >> Yeah. And so in my when I in my readings. I I in my research I was just I real. sounded like everybody was coming back. from World War II. nobody could fit in. So media related to it and um and uh. yeah that's that's so I was drawn to it. I was I was like oh so this is how all. these places started and then it's and.

then uh talking to other friends that. were also looking into it. Um. it kind of sounded like maybe the clubs. had been diluted a lot by this point. There probably weren't very many. veterans. >> What year is this you think? probably. around probably about the time you were. leaving 2011. >> Yeah. >> And um and uh and then I I had heard one. of them told me that uh they were like, "Yeah, I wanted to do it cuz I [ __ ]. love motorcycles." And he goes, "I went. to a bike shop where a bunch of them.

were working and I realized they're all. stealing each other's bikes." [laughter]. He was like, [gasps]. >> "Uh, I just think it's stupid that a. motorcycle enthusiast would steal. bike.". >> Yeah. You know, in fact, we. [clears throat] had a moratorum in. Ventura. We ruled V as Hell's Angels. Ventura. We ruled Ventura with an iron. hand. And that was one of the things. that was not allowed in that county or. not the county so much. But the town, it. was hard to control the whole county. But in the city of Ventura, there was no.

bike thie, >> no bike thieving at all. You know, nobody even locked their bike. In fact, if you came to our bar and locked your. bike, we would ask you to unlock it. Uh. because we took it as an insult. I go, "Oh, wow.". >> I go, "Man, you know," I go, "Are you. inferring that we're a bunch of bikes. thieves?" I go, "Because you need to. unlock it and if you don't want to. unlock it, I understand that, but you. got to leave. You got to unlock it and. you got to leave and we're not going to. warn you again. So, make your choice. What do you want to do?" And, you know, most of the people would always unlock.

it and go, "Well, I I didn't know, you. know, and whatnot." And you know, the. police knew that was a policy in town. We had one guy uh got caught stealing. bikes and uh he spent the weekend in the. clubhouse. Uh it was funny, the cops. knew he was in there. The word spread. all over the street and the sergeant uh. this guy I've known for since 1978. uh pulled up and they said, "Hey, he's.

out there, man." So I I went out there. I go, "What's up?" And he goes, he goes, "I know you got the guy in there." He. goes, "Scare the [ __ ] out of him, but. don't hurt him." He don't want to do no. reports, man. And [snorts] uh, you know, we kept him in there all weekend. Made. him assemble the bike. He had taken the. bike apart. We made him reassemble the. bike. And then we made him go pick dog. [ __ ] up in the backyard. We had two big. Rottweilers and nice that didn't like. anybody. So, we told him, "Go out there. and we didn't even cage the dog. We. We're not caging them up, man. You can.

just go out there and deal with the. dogs." And you know, they were just like. watching his ass. But. >> the word spread fast and you know, no. more bike thefts, you know. >> Oh, bet. >> Yeah. >> Well, we got a couple things to crank. out here real quick before we get too in. the weeds. >> So, one, I have a Patreon account. It's. a subscription account and uh they're. the reason that I get to sit here with. you today. >> Um, so I offer them the opportunity to. ask every guest a question. This is from. Brian. In hindsight, would you have prioritized.

keeping the DoD career that you had. after military service rather than. pursuing life as a Hell's Angel? Follow. on. What obstacles did you encounter when. transitioning from military service to. the civilian world? And how did you. address them? So, is that two-part. question? >> Yeah. >> Well, I didn't like taking orders from people. I didn't respect. That was a real. problem for me. And I I wound up.

I was in a Marine Reserve unit and the I. was in it for over four years and 0311. he was a rifle unit. We had a new. gunnery sergeant uh come and uh he. was very disrespectful and he had you. know old school guy you know now I felt. we the unit the company was tight. but we were reserve we were reserve unit.

you know so people were living their. civilian life and blending the military. life together and the platoon I happened. to be in and we were taking psychedelics. and you know we were getting high out. smoking pot and he knew that he thought. he was going to come there and change. everything and uh him and I wound up. getting in a beef and uh. we were on a rifle range and uh I was. kind of [ __ ] around. I didn't think.

he'd do anything, but I we were, you. know, standing the firing and told there. was four or five guys between us. He was. down the range talking [ __ ] to me, you. know, like he always did. He just rode. me. And uh so I told everybody to get. off the range and I put my rifle to my. side and I told him, "Draw." And he ran. off the range, went and ratted me out. uh got court marshaled. Uh. at the court marshall, it it kind of.

drifted into. perhaps you'd fit in better working by. yourself. And I wound up getting a, you. know, I I I went out under a general. discharge. uh in under honorable conditions. wound. up going to work for the Department of. Defense. uh at Point Magoo. I was a communication. trouble uh shooter. Uh there was a submarine surveillance.

This is the middle of the Cold War with. the Russians uh in the late '7s. Took. care of the uh RCA building. It was a. submarine surveillance system. They had. one on Santa Cruz. It's all declassified. now. They had one on Santa Cruz Island. Then they had one on an island in. Northern California. They watched all. the Russian subs. Uh, you know, didn't. let them get too close. And, uh, that. was my job. And.

they found out I was the leader of the. Los Angeles Hell's Angels. [laughter]. So, I got called in the office. >> Oh, bet you did. And they [laughter]. said, >> "We need to ask you something. We know. this rumor has been floating around. We. thought it was a joke, but are you. really leader of the Los Angeles Hell's. Angels? And I said, "I am.". They just looked at me, you know, my. my boss was a cool dude, you know, and.

he just goes, "Jesus Christ, Christie.". And he goes, "We're going to pull your. security clearance. You can't you can't. be with those guys and be with us." And. uh he said, "You got to make a choice.". And I made my choice. I walked away, you. know, uh do I reflect back sometimes. now? I uh. when when I walked away from the club. and everybody turned their back on me. after 40 years of service, uh.

had my feelings hurt. I was mad. And you. know, I I look at at you. I look around. this room. I look at uh the things that. uh were presented to you and. you know [clears throat]. you guys military guys you guys risk. your ass every day. Now. I used to risk my ass every day too but. [laughter] it was for ourselves. It. wasn't for our country. You know the. Hell's Angels are a self-s serving. organization but it was a a funloving.

organization at one time. At least I. thought it was it was a live and let. live world. Uh but I you know I look. around the room here I look at you uh I. think yeah I wonder what would have. happened but it's a hypothetical. question and you know you never get a. concrete answer for it. Uh you know I uh. what rank would I have made? Uh uh what. would I have accomplished? Uh you know I.

have a a great story. When did the. seagulls start? They started in what 65. 66. Oh man, I'm going to get killed for. not knowing this. But I remember I'm. going to tell you I think that's that's. about when and I'll tell you why. >> I uh uh had got hit in the head. I got. in a fight with another Marine and he. clipped me with his rifle, you know, uh. went to sick call, had my head stitched, wouldn't tell him what happened. Told. him I hit my head on the rack. uh which.

really up my bar with all the the old. school Marine sergeants, you know, and. uh there was a guy in there that had. broke his shoulder like and collar bone. He was a he was trying out for something. new and [clears throat] he said he was. going to be a Navy Seal, >> right? >> And he had he had jumped out of a plane. and the par Did you guys jump? >> Uhhuh. >> Yeah. And he he had hit his shoulder. when he landed. he didn't land right and.

uh he couldn't wait to get back uh to. where they you know they took him out. and you know I don't know the structure. how it works uh you know you listen to a. guy like that and you think wow now. another story is. of when I'm getting I'm in the reserve. unit I get activated when I when I. challenge that gun reserve got me down. at Camp Pendleton and I'm walking And I. can't remember, you know, how the little.

camp You've been in Camp Pendleton. >> Mhm. [clears throat]. >> You know, all the little They got all. these little satellite camps everywhere. >> Yeah. >> And uh I'm walking down the road and. across the street. >> is uh a guy was in boot camp with. >> and he stepped on a [ __ ] mine. >> Oh god. >> You know, he looked like he was, you. know, we're all 19, 20 years old at the. time. I don't know how old I was, but. you know, just in my early early 20s at. the most, man. He looked like he was 60. years old, man. You know, the way he was.

walking and uh he was walking then like. I'm walking now with my two hip. replacements. But and you know, just there's a higher power I feel that. generates all these moves and you know, you have to assist them in uh uh in the. journey. But uh I don't know, I don't. know if I even answered the question, but I. >> I think you did. I I I mean, who knows, man. You know.

>> Well, I got you a gift, too. It's not a. challenge coin, but it's a Vigilance. League. Gummy bears made in the USA. Legal in all 50 states. >> Really? In all 50 states? [laughter]. >> That means there's no uh funny business. in those. >> But um yeah, I got you. >> I got to. >> appreciate that. Thank you. >> My pleasure. Could you give us a history. lesson on the Hell's Angels? How they. started, when they came about?

>> Well, you know, there were they were. originally the pissed-off bastards. >> Okay. >> And uh. couple of the guys. started. two leaders, you know, two leaders in. one squad don't doesn't work sometimes. and uh. they split and the part of the. pissed-off bassers became the Hell's. Angels. And uh and the little town.

Bloomington down there by San. Bernardino, Riverside, there was a. gentleman. who in 197879. claims. that. he started the Hell's Angels. His name. was Dick White. uh you know there's nobody kept any. records back then. There was it was just. unwritten rules. Uh uh if you didn't. make it or you didn't stand up for.

yourself, you know, usually wind up. getting beat up and a runoff and uh. somebody wind up with your motorcycle. and your jacket and it was a a pretty. tough world. in [clears throat] of. we started in San Bernardino. [sighs]. in 1957. Uh. well 19 I'm going to back up. In 1956, Sunny Barger. joined the army and he was 16 and they.

found out he was uh not a legal age. and they discharged him honorably. He started the Oakland Hell's Angels. with another gentleman named uh Boots. I. don't know Boots's real name. I just. know him by Boots. a lot of monikers in. the health angels, you know, >> uh the power base that was in Southern. California made a transition. Sunny.

Barger was a kind of a natural leader, a. very charismatic uh guy. and he pulled the power to the Bay Area. and probably by the early 60s and then. into the mid60s he became the uh voice. and the face of the Hell's Angels and he. was very uh adamant that it was his. club. Him and I used to argue all the. time. I was kind of 10 years behind him.

in the uh pecking order and his attitude. was the club belong to him. My attitude. was we all belong to the club but uh. that's a brief history lesson. uh we uh. started a tugof-war and we mentioned. this earlier between the north and the. south and it it was it was a healthy uh. rivalry but sometimes it it turned. unhealthy and deadly. Uh, I know that.

Sunny. initially, if people look on the. internet, the death head was called the. Bumblebee death head and it was very. small and it was kind of at a 45° angle. and you could see both wings and Sunny. met. There were two Hell's Angel. charters in Southern California. There. was a SoCal Hell's Angels that had. nothing to do with the Purdue Hell's. Angels. It was two separate clubs with.

the same name and Sunny basically said, "We're going to you're either going to. join with us or you're going to get. pushed out." And in the process, he. liked the patch better that gentleman. named Vic Bettinhardt. created. It was the side view death, basically the death head you see. nowadays uh uh in the patch. and he took. that style, had him rewrite it, and then.

sent 12 patches to San Bernardino, 13. patches. I don't know how many people. were in the club at that time down. there, and said, "This is the new. patches. Put these on, or the next time. we see you guys, we're going to fight.". And so, of course, San Bernardino being. San Bernardino Hell's Angels uh shot the. patches full of holes, put them back in. the box, and uh sent them to uh Oakland. And then this is about 1965. I was told.

I wasn't there. I was told it was 1965. I was still in high school. And the. North and the South met at Bass Lake. that year. And uh they fought it out. That war went on for about, you know, inner conflict, if you want to call it, three or four years. Nobody was killed. over that patch. But there was a lot of. people beat up. I know that Sunny Pistol. Whipped Grubby Glenn uh at Bass Lake. that year cuz Grubby said, "I'm never.

putting that badge on and I'm never not. being a Hell's Angel." And uh this is. kind of a side story, a backstory. Uh. 25, 30 years later, I can't remember. Sunny gave Grubby Glenn the pistol as a. gift. He pistol whipped people with at a. big party in at the San Bernardino. clubhouse. So, you know, you got that. weird rivalry. I I think the military. >> people similar. >> would relate to something like that. You.

know, citizens are like, "Oh my god, what the hell? you know, you guys are. crazy. Yeah, perhaps. But uh that's just. all part of the the game, you know. >> Yeah. >> But I I remember being at that party and. uh Glenn opening that gift up and uh. Glenn looked at it and suddenly said, "That's the pistol I pistol whipped you. with at Bass Lake in 1965.". >> Wow. >> And uh it just you know. >> What kind of pistol? >> And they're both felons. [laughter].

I It was some revolver, I think. Oh, right on. >> Nothing special. >> So, let's talk about you then. So, how. actually what is So, when it comes to the Do the clubs. recruit? >> Well, are they looking for people? >> There's two there's there's two ways to. build a club. One way is to push out the. weak links, if you will.

The other uh philosophy is. >> how do you do that? >> Uh you just start uh pushing and shoving. kind of. You know, you know what it's. like. I mean uh I'm I'm sure you guys if. you don't think somebody's uh uh. [sighs and gasps]. >> I know how we do it. I'm curious how you. do it. >> Well, we start kicking people's ass and. uh uh putting them through tests. uh uh. put them. >> test. >> well put them in a situation perhaps uh. with go to a bar you know there's going.

to be a problem uh what are these guys. made of how are they going to conduct it. uh maybe ask them to do something that. uh uh a felony favor and uh will they do. it will they not do it how important is. getting in the Hell's Angels or any club. to that particular individual uh. >> I I'm Sorry. I thought you meant pushing. out the weak from well. >> that are already in. >> Well, no. That this is people coming in, but I'm going to I'm going to address. that in a second. The second way to do.

things is you want to take over a club, you just take them over, bring everybody. in, put a your patch on them, and then. start weeding them out. And. >> Oh, okay. >> Okay. The end result is the same. Got. it. >> You're going to lose 50% of the guys. uh. you're going to lose 50%. Uh of. and the old school guys, they don't ever. want. those individuals to say, "Well, I used. to be a Hell's Angel." You know, even. though it was a three-month span, they.

don't want, you know, you got guys like. Doug the Thug running around and Moldy. Marvin, you know, they didn't want these. guys having the ability to say that. like up in Canada. Uh I don't know if. you know anything about Canada. Very. serious guys up there in Canada with the. Hell's Angels. Uh they had a complete. country patchover. Uh I can't remember. what year it was. >> A country patchover. >> They just took over all these clubs and. uh uh put Hell's Angel patches on them.

and uh they used the second uh uh you. know way to to weed things out. They. they put the patches on them, then they. weeded them out. And uh you know, but. what they did was they probably stopped. a lot of law enforcement investigations. uh uh prior. I mean, I'm sure the. investigation started once the people. put that new patch on, but you kind of. go around the investigation, get in. front of it, if you will. It's probably.

like in invading uh if you guys are. going to do an operation uh uh you know. you just go there and do it like you. know they took that uh uh [snorts]. Venezuela president you know uh they. just went down there and got him you. know brought him back uh whether you. know right wrong or indifferent uh. [clears throat]. >> [ __ ] foot around you know. >> I mean I would think a lot of these guys. would fight to the death over switching.

switching teams. >> Well, >> maybe not. >> I Well, I I think that there's a pecking. order in the outlaw bike world. You've. got what they called the big four at one. time, and it was the Hell's Angels, the. Outlaws, the Bandidos, uh, and and the Pagans. Now, you've got. some additional clubs. You got the. Mongols, who really earned their place. in that, uh, uh, culture. Uh, you know, we fought them in Southern California. We're still fighting them. We started in.

1977 and it's still going on. I mean, a. lot of lives lost on both sides. They're. a real contender in the outlaw bike. world. You got the Sons of Silence. Uh. you've got the pagans now making this. big move, I'm told, uh all over the. United States that are going into places. they never went before. But you would. hope that someone would uh uh fight to. the death, you know. Uh I'm sure that uh. you know you hear about uh things that.

these different uh uh elite military. groups do. You know these guys are there. I don't think they want to surrender. [clears throat]. >> You know. >> I don't know if I'm answering the. question. >> Yeah you are. And so with the recruiting. is it I mean. are you I guess are you is there. outreach or is it just intake? Well, that again there's two philosophies, you. know. You you you if you start.

petitioning people to get in the club, uh. how on board are they? You know, it's. better I think uh I think it's better to. have them come to you and want to want. to be in the be in the organization, be. part of it. Uh they want it so bad they. can taste it. I don't know. I'm sure you. know that feeling, man. You want it so. bad you can taste it. And uh those are. the hungry guys. Those are the guys I. always uh looked at. I never went and. recruited anybody. We had a uh situation.

in Ventura when the phenomena of street. gang violence started where this these. specific little street gangs were. shooting at each other. We brought all the street gang leaders. into the Ventura clubhouse and basically. had a moratorium on the violence. You. guys aren't going to shoot at each other. and Ventura, we don't want the heat, man. It wasn't because we were being. selfish about it. We didn't want to. endanger the comm the community. Of.

course, we wouldn't want to see anybody. get hurt, but it was really self-. serving, you know. We we didn't want the. heat. We didn't want the government. grants uh coming to town. I don't know. if you know how [clears throat] much uh. federal government, man. You got a. Hell's Angel charter in your town. You. can apply for government grants. You can. get a. attached to a federal agency, create a. task force. There's a lot of things that. can transpire. And when [clears throat] we stop that. moratorium on the violence,

uh some of these clubs, these street gangs are not clubs or. street gangs. We called ourselves a. club, but I mean these guys call. themselves street gangs. [gasps and sighs]. We started having some of the members. gravitate from these street gangs. We. wound up probably getting one to two or. three new members in the mid '9s from. every street gang that we had uh uh. approached and said, "You're not going. to be shooting at anybody." And we never.

petitioned them. They came on their own. free will. A lot of people accused me of. going out and uh uh you know poaching. these guys in these street gangs. That. never happened. These were guys that saw. what was going on, saw the writing. >> What if it did? >> What's that? >> What if it did? >> Yeah. >> What if you did recruit him from. >> Yeah. Who cares? >> Yeah. But, you know, there's look, I. left the club on good terms and then. soon as Sunny Sunny and I were like.

fighting like, you know, unbelievably uh. before I got uh uh. in the [clears throat] before I made the. decision to leave. >> We'll get there. Yeah, we'll get there, >> but stay with recruiting. >> Okay. So, >> so are you guys I mean I'm just curious. Do you intake anybody that wants it bad? Are you looking for specific skills? You. know, you know, I guess I've been asked. this question a lot. I'm just going to. address it and maybe you'll stop me if. it's something that uh.

you going to get into later, but it's. usually. white. young guys. It's not because we're. racist. Uh there's Mexicans in the club, there's Filipinos in the club, but for. years there were no blacks in the club. because we adopted the West Coast prison. guidelines. And that is very strict. I. don't know if you guys are aware of it, maybe not in the military so much as the. prison culture, but you don't The whites. hang out with the whites, the Mexicans.

hang out with the Mexicans, >> uh the blacks hang out with the blacks. You've got three factions uh in the. penal system in California. You've got. the Aryan Brotherhood. This is the original uh prison gangs. You've got the Black Gorilla Family and. you've got the Mexican Mafia. And when. you go to prison, the first thing they ask you is, and. they use this term just like this, they'll say, "Hey, what car are you in?".

And you say, "Well, I'm in the black. car.". if you're identifying with the blacks or. I'm in the uh white car, I'm in the. Mexican car. So, the people that that. was. >> Wouldn't that be pretty. self-explanatory? You [laughter] think. so? I think you should go to [ __ ]. prison. >> Yeah, but you know, there's a lot of. people I' I've gone on uh uh uh shows in. the past and not only podcast, but. television shows and we're accused of. being racist, you know, and you know,

that's it's just not true. You know, the. uh the East Coast Dragons are East Bay. Dragons are a black club up in the Bay. Area. They don't allow white guys in it. You know, it's it's an all black club. You know, you could say the same thing. about them. It's not about race, you. know. It's just about the guys you were. hanging out with and uh the culture of. uh that prison mentality. I mean, if you. go to prison though and it's all based. on race, why would they ask you what car.

you're driving? Wouldn't that be pretty? >> It's just kind of a. look and and let me tell you, in the old. days, I tell you, I went to prison in. Texas in 2011. It's a completely. different ballgame. You know, I had gone. to prison in ' 86, the first time. Uh so. now it's 2013. when when I get to prison in Texas. and they're still doing what car you. riding in you know uh nobody asked me. because everybody knew who I was but.

they the average inmate they say what. what car are you riding in and uh you. tell them and then they say what's your. crime. and you tell them now in the old days. there were particular things that. weren't acceptable. child molester of you know whatnot. Now they ask you what's your crime and. they they go, "Okay, what's your name?". And they go, "Let's go over to the. phone." They go over to the phone and. they they call home and go, "Hey, look. this guy up. It's everything's on the.

computer.". >> Mhm. >> And they know immediately if this guy. says he's a a bank robber, but in fact. he's a child molester or he's there for. uh uh you know, some sort of pedophile. type crime. Uh I mean these guys uh. aren't accepted on the yard, you know, it's it's very difficult for them, but. I uh. these guys came. and the club started growing. You know, the club got like a shot in the arm. The.

interesting thing is some of the old. guys didn't like the way the young guys. dressed. I don't know if this happened. in the military at all. They didn't like. the music they listened to. uh they didn't like the the philosophy. was different than the the old his you. know. history of in tradition of the old guys. It was a whole new ball game for a lot. of these guys. There are a lot of dog foods out there. and they all say they have the best.

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and get 50% off your first order. Or you. can use code SRS50 at checkout. That's. 50% off your first order at. sundaysfordd.com/srs50. Sundays fordogs.com/srs50. or use code SRS50 at checkout. How has the. what what would I. how have the core values of the Hell's.

Angels. changed from its inception to what it is. today? >> I think the breakdown uh would be in the. Brotherhood. There's breakdown in the in the. Brotherhood. Uh I think and I'm going to use I'm just. going to pick a date out of thin air in. in the early 70s, late 60s, if you didn't build your motorcycle from. the ground up, uh, and you rode it into.

some party or some camp uh, [groaning]. uh, to party with everybody, people. would know and you would not be. accepted. You probably get asked to. leave if you know, not getting a. physical confrontation. Back then, you. have to understand there was no. warehouses where you could mail order. all your parts. Uh, hey, I want to. chrome this. I Hey, I want a special uh. uh clutch lever. I want Everybody was. making that stuff by hand. And I'll.

I'll, you know, admit that there were a. few people leading the way like Dean. Lonza, uh, Dick Woods, uh, these. different bike builders, uh, up and down. the coast, and you could tell, you know, geographically you could tell where. somebody was from. It was like an. accent. You look at somebody's bike and. you go, "This guy's from San Frano. Valley. Uh, this guy's from the Bay. Area." You know, this guy's a San Diego. guy. because they they had a a a. particular accent to them. And uh it's.

it's been diluted now. You can go in the. shop and if you got $30,000, you can buy a Harley-Davidson and uh you. know, you can be a biker. I had uh. [clears throat and snorts] lunch with. the Davidson family once. And uh. I I was serious, but I was I was giving. him a hard time, kind of joking. I said, you know, and this is a true story. In. the old days, you go into the Harley. shop and you were an outlaw biker. You.

know, they didn't want your business. They didn't even want you in there. And. I was tell I was actually telling uh. Willie Davidson and his son, I can't. think of his son names. He was head of. marketing at the time, uh that they. should give me a bike because they were. now selling cut off vests. They were. selling leather pants. Uh uh [snorts]. they were selling bandanas. were selling. things now that when we were dressing. like that in the 60s and 70s they were. condemning you know and uh it just made.

this huge transition. So the the we had. a name for them in the as things. progressed from the 70s into the 80s and. by the end of the 80s we called them. rubs. Have you ever heard that term? >> Rich urban bikers. >> Oh man, [laughter] this is another thing. that drove so. >> rich urban bikers. Anybody can buy a. bike. >> This is embarrassing. I want to tell you. this story about what? Hold on. I got to. cut out the court. Just a random. What's. your favorite bike of all time? >> FXR.

>> Oh [ __ ] Right on. >> What about you? >> I bought this [ __ ] Big Bear Athena. chopper when I was uh I had never ridden. a motor. So yeah, what did you call him? The the. >> rub. >> Yeah, I was rub. So [laughter]. >> So I told I was you can't be a rub. I. was really interested in this stuff and. then I started contracting for the and. which I'd never made that kind of money. before. So I come home after the first. contract and I'm like. >> I'm ready. >> I'm going to buy a [ __ ] bike now. And.

so I went to the Cutting Edge Cycles in. St. St. Charles, Missouri. >> Do you know who who who ran it, >> man? His name was Mark, but I can't. remember his last name by this time. But. he had the he had So I went in there, ordered a bike, got the big Barthena. chopper with a 300 rear tire. Never. ridden a [ __ ] motorcycle. I haven't. even I r a dirt bike once. About killed. myself. So it finally comes in. I go on. another appointment. I come back and I'm. like, "Oh yeah, it's in the box. He. breaks the [ __ ] box up, wheels it.

out." I'm like, [snorts]. "Give him the money. Cash about 35. grand." And um. >> expensive. >> Yeah. and uh my first bike. And I go. [laughter]. I looked at him and I go, [snorts] "How. do you start this [ __ ] thing. anyways?" And he just looked at me. He. goes, "You just bought a $35,000 bike. and you don't know how to [ __ ] start. it." I said, "Well, do you want me to. return it?" And uh. >> I don't think he did. >> Yeah. He goes, "All right, here you go.". Tried to get it out of the parking lot,

picked the kickstand down. I was like, "You might want to deliver this one.". [laughter]. So he did and then uh got home, took off. right to the bar and uh there was a. biker bar right down the road from where. I lived. Went in there and that's what I. I was I went in there, everybody had. their [ __ ] chains and. >> their vests and their bandanas and all. this [ __ ] And I'm like, >> "Aren't you my [ __ ] dentist?". [laughter]. >> You know, and then the other guy is an.

attorney. And I'm like, "This is like. the shittiest bar in St. Louis, and it's. full of [ __ ] dentists, doctors, and. lawyers.". >> Y. >> I'm out of here. This is like a costume. party. >> Yeah. >> So, I I went home. >> Did you sell it? >> What's that? >> Did you sell it? >> I kept it. I moved down to Florida. I. went to Biketoberfest and about killed. myself uh doing that. >> Did you ever go down on it? >> What's that? >> Did you ever go down on it? >> Yeah. at 3:00 in the morning with a. check on the back. But uh and I didn't get arrested for.

whatever reason. Probably because it was. by October Fest, but uh. >> the cops came and [clears throat]. >> Oh, yeah. >> Did you get hurt? >> Nope. >> No. How about her? >> Nope. >> No. >> No helmets. Uh lucky. >> Really? No helmets? >> But um. >> Have you been had you been drinking? >> It was 3:00 in the morning at. Vtoberfest. >> You know, I I don't want I don't want to. start an Inquisition here. So, oh man. Yeah, it was a wild time. >> And how long did you keep it after that?

>> I probably had it for I don't know maybe. maybe 3 years. I you know I'll tell you. if you would have gotten a bike I'm. going to I always push the FXRs because. I've I've had them all uh in the. Harley's and the FXR was probably the. best handling the most reliable bike. Harley-Davidson perhaps ever made in my. expectations. uh the FXR Sport. It had, you know, two. discs on the front, disc brake on the. back. And there was a gentleman uh that.

worked for Harley named Jerry Branch in. Long Beach. And he had this ported and. polished heads and a carbureation. And. he had a whole like little uh kit you. could have them put on at the Harley. shop. And uh I became good friends with. this Monty uh from Ventura. Harley-Davidson. And uh. so I got one of the first FXRs in. Ventura. I called me and said, "Hey man,

you got to come down there. This motor. is unbelievable. They made so many. changes in the motor." Like I was. looking at the motor over there uh. >> for my friend. >> Yeah. And uh that motor. uh was the prelude. The next motor was. the evolution and uh it was all rubber. mounted and you know it was just it was. just like a whole new motorcycle and. people are going to call [ __ ] but. it's the truth. I swear I changed the. lifters and the valves uh I mean the.

lifters and the cam the followers and. the and uh I don't even think I changed. the pistons, man. I had like 300,000. miles on it. was just damn incredible. motorcycle. Just rode it everywhere. Uh. I I've got some uh. >> I got a cool uh picture. Uh. a couple cool pictures. Uh I I'll get to. you. But the. before that.

built a bike. I won a bike in a dice. game from the Saint and Slaves. This is. in 1978. Bill Reed and I Bill Reed was a. Saint and slave. I was a Hell's Angel. We were like, you know, real close, man. Uh I was I spent so much time with the. Satan slaves. The uh gang intelligence. uh cops down in Los Angeles said I was a. member of the Satan slaves. They didn't. even realize I was a Hell's Angel. I. spent so much time with these guys. I. was always with them. And we got a dice.

game going. And uh he had. [clears throat] got a bike uh from. somebody. decided he didn't want it. and uh you. know so we started this dice game and I. wound up with a bike. I've got this. picture. It's almost like a prelude to. the next bike Harley-Davidson. [clears throat]. made. Now people will say, "Ah, [ __ ] Harley-Davidson and copy him.". Yeah, Harley-Davidson copied this. Uh. Monty was right around the corner and. the Ventura Harley shop was on one.

street and then on the back street was a. Ventura Helanggeles clubhouse. and Monty. told us he would come over there to see. what we were doing. I had a guy David. Ortega uh like my closest brother uh we. were either loving on each other or. fighting, you know, we were that's just. one of them deals and I would do all the. mechanical work and he would do all the. fabrication. And we came up with this. bike uh and he came up with a paint.

He's the first and I said, "David, I. want a all black bike." and he came up. with this paint, painted the heads, the. front end, the uh the cam cover, uh the. primary cover. The whole bike was black. and it was just highlighted with a. little bit of chrome and uh. probably 3 years, two years later, uh. Harley came out with what they called. the night train. They had they had. copied it. Uh but.

>> I remember that. >> You remember the night train? A bunch of. guys on the SE teams bought a night. train. >> Yeah. I mean, they were they that was a. bike that David Ortega and I created. And every once in a while, I'll I'll put. that bike up on social media and people. will will they'll go, that's the bike. that started the trend for black stuff. And you know, it was a combination. David and I did it together. But uh it. was just incredible. That's a picture. I'll send you. It's a really cool. picture.

>> We'll pull it up. >> Yeah. Yeah, I got I wound up getting rid. of it because I could not I could I. could just never find anybody to ride. with. >> But but yeah, but you know what? I bet. you if you would have got I lost, you. know, I got to telling the story and I I. I got lost direction. If you would have. got an FXR, uh really good handling bike, uh you. maybe still be riding today. I'm telling. you, >> I've been thinking about getting another. one. Maybe. I'm telling you, FXR, uh, a. lot of the, uh, they've got some new.

stuff out. I like the FXR. What you. should do, you should go to the Harley. shop and say, "Look, man, uh, I want a. bike comparable to a FXR. I want I want. this all about handling and. performance." And, you know, they come. now with big motors in them, you know, 101 in. This is stuff of like the first. time I built a big uh hot rod motor in a. bike of and nobody would share nothing. with you. You know, you'd have to learn. trial and error, trial and error. And uh.

you know, I put the bike together. Uh I. didn't shave the u the valve skirts and. the they're hitting, you know, and I've. got this noise and they're just clipping. each other and they're not enough to. hurt anything. Perhaps over a period of time, it would. have been I'm like, "What the hell is. that?" So, I take it apart, start. inspecting everything. I see the scuff. marks on the pistons, you know, the. skirts. Okay, I got to shave this. I got. to cut this out. Then it's oiling and. and uh.

what I didn't do was there's inside. oilers on the motors back then. I I should have plugged the holes and. put outside oilers to the heads uh to. get the oil up there in the heads. And. you know, I didn't know the trick. And I. finally I said to some old man, I go, "Maybe I didn't plug the goddamn oil. passages on the barrels." and he got. this big smile on his face. He goes, "Bingo.".

[laughter]. You know, and he he wouldn't tell me. He. could have told me, but he wouldn't. He. wanted me to find out for myself. And I. think that's part of the thing that's. wrong with this country today. Nobody's. like thinking for themselves, man. You. know, >> I think that's a big part of what's. wrong with this country. >> Yeah. >> I got another random question for you. that just popped in my head. I'm just. curious. You You were out by now. Do you. remember a couple years ago when. Harley-Davidson went woke? >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> What was I mean, what is a guy like you.

or just the or the Hell's Angels or any. biker gang in general? I mean, what what. happened there? What people were. throwing the people were blowing their. motorcycles up. >> Yeah. I I mean, I you know, I think the. whole world I was in Spain. I you know, I I went to Spain. I come back from. prison uh of my second marriage is in a. of you know, it's crashing and burning, you know, trying to keep it together for. my son. Uh I have a young son. He's 22. now. And uh it just ain't working. So I.

have this I I put out my second book, Marked, and it's a fictional novel about. my life. And uh so I. I get this message from this production. company. Hey, you know, we want to. option your book, you know, and uh so I. my daughter's my lawyer, so I put my. daughter on him. And uh all expenses. paid, you know, I'm going to Spain. I'm. living in a luxury apartment, the whole.

nine yards. So I I go over to Spain and. I'm looking at the United States now. from a distance and it's just like. everything just it was like I walked. into a different uh uh country when I. came back. And I'll tell you the other. time I had an experience like that. I'm. in it's 2002. I'm fighting a 59count. state racketeering case. Uh uh you know. anything you can think of. They alleged.

I had something to do with it. Uh. and. the Twin Towers gets. bombed attacked and I'm in solitary. confinement. We there's a rumbling. around the jail that something's going. on. The guard, the daytime guard's a. complete [ __ ] you know. I said, "Hey, what's going on?" He goes, "You. don't need to worry about what's going. on. You need to worry about what's going. on in here." I said, "Yeah, but you. know, my family's out there." I go, "Is. there a war? What are we doing?" You. know, and uh.

in February, that's 9, you know, 911. September. In February of the following. year, I finally get out. you know, the. case just collapses. The lawyers are. just tearing it apart. It collapses. They let me out and they offer me time. served, you know, and Tony Sarah, very. famous lawyer in San Francisco, he says, "You got to take the deal, George." He. goes, "Uh, you know, we fight this case. You're going to be fighting in another. three or four years." So, I take the. deal, but.

I walk out of that jail. And you you asked me earlier about the. brotherhood, you know, and I I have a. stage play that I do. I wrote a 2-hour. stage play. And in the stage play, I. talk about walking out of that solitary. confinement. You got sensory deprivation. and uh the sunlight like, you know, haven't been in natural sun in a year, over a year. And not only had the Twin Towers fall,

they had fell. They were attacked, but. the brotherhood in the club was. affected. It was like the whole world, it was like the whole world shifted and. I walked into a different world and I. could feel it, you know, and it's like, you know, cancel culture. I mean, all. this shit's starting to go on and, you. know, like you say, Harley goes woke. I. mean, who would I mean, who would have. thought? >> Never would I have thought that? >> No. Who would have thought that, you. know? Uh.

I don't know, man. You know, I I look. back, I'm, you know, pushing 80, man. I'm going to hit 80 here pretty quick. >> Have they redeemed themselves? >> I don't know. You know, I go to the. Harley shop now. I, you know, I still. ride. I don't work on bikes anymore. I I. don't like it, man. I don't I don't like. bending over for more than 20 minutes. [laughter]. Uh, you know, uh, they're trying. Uh, but.

I bought my first bike for 200 bucks, man. 250 bucks. I can't even remember. what I paid for. You can't even get an. oil. I mean, last time I went in to get. the oil changed. The bill was like 400. bucks or something, >> you know? Uh, it's just a completely. different world, you know. >> Will it ever shift back? I don't I don't. think things shift back. Mhm. >> Uh I think we have to adapt. I think. there has to be uh. awareness here with.

you know people in the country. I I I'll. give you a example. My wife and I have a. Jack Russell dog. Fons is his name. He's. 12 years old. I mean you know what it's. like having a dog, man. You know he's. everything to us. He gets diagnosed with. uh his Paul has cancer in it, so he has. a toll removed. You know, we get. everything done. Uh. we're out of state.

We have an appointment set up for him. We have a person to pick him up, take. him, and you know, uh the doctor changes. the appointment. and we get upset. You know, I said, "Look, we've got this whole thing. shifted. we're in 3,000 mi away and we. made an appointment and she goes, "Well, I called and left a message." And I go, "Did you get a confirmation?" And uh uh. she winds up telling my wife, Beverly, I. don't like the way you're talking to me.

I mean, you know, [ __ ] you know, man. up a little bit. Toughen up. You know, you don't like the way somebody's. talking to you. I mean, you're there. accommodating people. That's what you're. doing. is Beverly wasn't out of line. I was. right there when I when I heard what was. going on. And I just I'm like the degree. of anger, you know, is like rising, man. And I mean, how how do you deal with. people like that? And how do you. straighten it out? Will it ever be. straightened out? I don't know, you.

know. >> Yeah. >> Is that how cultures collapse? Is that. how societies uh uh come to to an end? Yeah, you know, this is an appropriate. time for me to talk about my speech when. I left the club, but I'm going to wait. because I know you probably want to talk. about that. But it's. Did Harley redeem themselves? I don't. know. You know, there's a lot of things. going on in this country that need. redemption. >> Yeah. >> It's not happening.

>> Well, let's get back to you. >> All right. So, we know that we know what. caught your interest in motorcycles and. and and and clubs. >> How did you get in? How did it all. start? >> You know, it's it's interesting. So, I'm running around with the question. marks and uh. Dick Woods is the founder and leader of. the question marks. and [clears throat] got some serious. guys in the question marks and the the.

Hessen steal one of the Saint and slaves. bikes. They bring it up to the Ventura. area. So, the Saint and Slaves were part. of that. Now, the Hessins aren't in that. 1enter coalition at this time. >> [clears throat]. >> The saint slaves say, "Hey, we're coming. up to Ventura, man. Hessen stole one of. our bikes. We're coming up to get it. You know, we want you to know." So, question marks, you know, we all go down. to the sinner's palace and, uh,

recover the bike, you know, uh, few. people get lumped up, some hurt. feelings. Dick Woods comes in there uh. after everybody's left. He thinks every. the event's still going on. We're uh. dealing with these guys. Walks in the. back door and somebody that holds the. position of hangar around with the. Hessen stabs Dick in the back. Dick. becomes uh partially paralyzed. Uh never.

the same. the question marks slowly. begin to unravel. Start hanging out with the Saint and. slaves. Uh we go up on the Kern River. Uh doing a lot of runs. Uh the Hell's. Angels show up up there. And in that. group of Hell's Angels that show up, there's a gentleman named Old Man John. And uh he's an old man like I'm 20, you.

know, mid20s, early probably mid20s by. now. 24 maybe. And I mean he looks like. an antique to me, you know. He looks. pretty good now that I think back. But. [clears throat] at that time I'm. thinking, man, this guy's old, you know, and he's riding his bike and. he knows it seemed you're living in this. very small community of outlaw bikers. and the Satan slaves had been talking. about me and oh man, John got word and.

the Satan slaves had a different posture. for recruitment than the Hell's Angels. We talked about this a little bit. earlier. The Satan slaves, you had to. ask to join. I didn't know. I didn't. know any of the rules. I'm just some kid. hanging out with these guys. I want to. be like them. Old man John sees me, takes an interest. in me. The Hell's Angels have a. different posture in Los Angeles. They. would say, "You have any interest in the. club?" And that's what old man John said. to me. He said, "Do you have any.

interest in the club?" And I just, you. know, I have an interest in the whole. lifestyle, John. And he gives me a card. and says, "Come to the clubhouse and uh. visit me." And that's basically how it. all started for me with the Hell's. Angels. Start hanging out with them. [gasps] Uh, you know, the interesting. thing is everybody wants to know. about what happens uh when you're a. prospect. You know, what do you do when. you're a prospect? You basically do. whatever they ask you to do, you know, and it's a [ __ ] job. Uh it uh uh a lot.

of menial meaningless jobs, you know, just get me a hamburger, you know, make. sure the beer's cold, things of that. nature. The real. learning experience. and what really defines your tenure in. the Hell's Angels is what you do after. you make member. You know, a lot of. people would just assume go sit on the. couch and and not do anything. But if. you want to make a name for yourself, you got to engage. You got to get.

involved. And uh one of the first things. I had to do, I mentioned the war with the Mongols. earlier. I walked uh into a room and there was. four or five guys on there. We were. having a beef with the Mongols and uh. they were talking about blowing up their. uh clubhouse bike shop. And I. immediately uh heard it was happening. and I you know I told the guys I go look.

man. I don't know if you've ever thought. about collateral damage. I go you want. to put a bomb in a public uh business. I. go I don't think that's a very good. idea. I go I don't want nothing to do. with it. I'm out of here now. I was a. Hell's Angel at the time. So they went ahead and put the bomb in. there. >> The Hell's Angels put the bomb. >> in the Mongols club uh bike shop. It's. called a frame up, but it was kind of a. clubhouse bike shop place. >> And this is while you were a prospect. >> No, I'm a member now. >> 1977.

>> and. put the bomb there. I don't know what. the trigger mechanism is or whatever. It. didn't go off. So. John comes to me and goes, "So you. walked in with those guys and you walked. out?" And I I go, "Yeah." He goes, "Well, you know, they don't think you're. committed." And he goes, "So, I'll tell. you what I want you to do. I want you to. go get the bomb. and I want you to retrieve it." And then.

we had a place downtown that we called. the armory. Wasn't a real armory. It was. a storage place, a garage. And in the. storage place, we had 2,000 lbs of. dynamite. We had a British uh anti-tank weapon. stood out on a big, you know, I don't. know what size shell it was, but it was. on a big tripod. It was big as a car. And uh had machine guns in there, uh. handguns, had a lathe to make silencers.

John sent me to retrieve uh the bomb. Myself and another guy, Jesse, we went. and got it. And John said, "Just bring. it back. Drop it off. I'll have the guys. that made it dismantle it, you know, because I I kind of said, "Look, man, I'm get getting involved in I don't know. what the hell's going on here. These. guys. >> You want me to go get some unexloded. ordinance?". >> Yeah, that's somebody that didn't know. what. >> into the building with all of our. [ __ ] weapons and ammo. >> Yeah. And I just. >> What could go wrong? >> I go, "Whatever, man." So,

this is the thing when you, you know, you start getting deeper and deeper. Now, what happened was. uh John got fed up. We were fighting. with Oakland at the time. Uh John got. fed up, stepped down. A new guy took. over the club. It was this guy Ray Glor. And uh. Ry. had somebody come in that knew how to. make a bomb. And what they did is they. took a tire, they stuffed it full of.

dynamite around the tire and they took. the valve uh and they used it as a. pressure release trigger. You as you. pull it out and the the stem comes up. and then the contacts hit and then you. know uh it goes. They take it in. and the bomb goes off. they go to change. attire and Mongol gets killed, his. 15year-old cousin gets killed and now.

the war is just, you know, it's full-on. war, man. Uh, with these Mongols and so. I I guess the point I'm trying to make. is, you know, people think, well, you. know, you you're a prospect and then you. get in the club and uh it's drinking and. partying and that's the way it was. supposed to be. But the the dynamics of. the problem with the Mongols, it changed. the whole structure in Southern. California. And it's not something I'm. proud of. I mean, I was I was there when. the whole thing was, uh,

it turned an abrupt, uh, you know, reverse or whatever you want to call it, wherever it went, uh, it was now, you. know, was basically urban warfare. Jingles and uh you got a guy Jingles and. uh Redbeard. They get shot off their. bike. Uh. >> holy [ __ ]. >> They get killed by Guy Castillano. Uh. Guy uh is the president of San Guy's. dead now. Uh you know, a lot of people.

make claims, oh, you know, you're. telling this and you're telling that. Hey, everybody's dead but me. There's a. couple of guys left and and guys gone. Uh, who's going to jail? Nobody. So, I, you. know, I tell these stories, but. >> what was the beef over? >> The beef started. Chester Green. was a Hell's Angel from the Bay Area. There was another guy, Whispering Bill.

Feifer. Uh, he was a Hell's Angel from. the Bay Area. These two guys wrote in. I. can't remember if they came from Georgia. or Texas and they wanted to become. Hell's Angels. And so they ride uh. from Cal into California up in the Bay. Area and they're petitioning people, hey, we want to come around. We're cool. guys and whatnot. Well, we had a little. thing we used to do back then uh. was called the acid test. And you give.

people LSD and sometimes you gave them. too much. Uh sometimes by design, sometimes by accident. And [snorts]. one of the guys flipped out. They were. trying to restrain him and he died. He. succumbed to what whatever they hog tied. him or whatever trying to keep him. restrained. So, somebody in the upper echelon, I can only speculate who, they make a. call and they say, "This guy died. Uh,

we got a witness. His partner's still. here and he's alive." So, somebody says, "He's got to go, man.". And they decide to kill that guy. So, they kill both these guys. They take. them up to a uh a well, abandoned well. in Northern California. former member named George Weatherin. Uh. [snorts]. they dump him in the well. and.

Whispering Bill is dying of cancer and. somehow he gets tied into this and picks. up a beef. He becomes an informant. Uh tells them there's bodies buried up. at uh this ranch on George Weathern's. ranch. and. Whisper and Bill, George Weatherin, and Chester Green all become informants. and are testifying against the other. people that were involved in uh that.

crime. Uh. Chester Green. refuses to go in the witness protection. program. Whisper and Bill goes in the witness. protection. George Weathern goes in the. witness protection program. Chester. Green decides he's going to hide in. plain sight. He goes to Southern. California and joins the Mongols. So, and if you if you read what law.

enforcement says, they always say the. fight started over the California bottom. rocker. It's not really what the fight. started over. The fight started over. Chester Green becoming a Mongol and him. being an informant. And you know, Chester Green apparently. convinced the Mongols he was not an. informant. I you know, I don't know how. or how or why or you know why they. didn't check up with us. Uh. nevertheless, uh he was now a Mongol.

Would they I mean would that have been. I would imagine that would not be a. welcoming call. Hey, we got your guy. here that wants to join the Mongols, but. we would just want to check and make. sure he's not an informant. >> Yeah. You know, you'd think they'd do. some followup, but you know, and perhaps. they knew what the consequence was that. these guys would have said, "Oh, yeah. Hold him in the back room. We'll be down. there in 6 hours.". >> So, that actually would have been a. friendly call between clubs. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> No [ __ ] And it But it didn't work out.

that way. You guys hated each other or. you didn't? >> No, we didn't at that time. >> Oh, okay. >> They were they were this their own. little motorcycle club. Uh and at that. particular time, you know, the Mongols were a new obscure club. And. at that particular time, uh the Hell's. Angels were they were royalty, man. You. know, it it was our world. You know, we. were the number one club and no other. clubs would go, "Wow, we were just as. good." Perhaps they were just as good.

But in California, we ruled California. It was our it was our uh state uh. wherever we went. [sighs]. So we all decided to go to a swap meet. You got to pay attention. This is a. convoluted story. So we all decided to. go to a swap meet. Swap meets are new. It's 1977. They got this new deal they. do where people bring motorcycle parts. and they put them on the floor and. people walk around and they, you know, they bid on stuff. I'll give you 200 for.

that or whatever. Uh they sell alcohol. in there. They have loud music was. probably not a good combination uh uh in. that particular environment. So we're in. there. There's nine Hell's Angels in. there and there's. probably [clears throat]. 40 to 60 Mongols in there. Now, there's two people in their that their. their worlds are about to collide. One.

of them is a Hell's Angel, one of them. is a Mongol. You've got a Hell's Angel. that wife ran off with the Mongol. And they walk in there and they see each. other and the Hell's Angel and him and I. are best friends still to this day. We. talk, he's an ex Hell's Angel now. Uh he. doesn't say a word to anybody. He just. pulls back and clocks this guy and the. fight's on. Now,

how do I know specifically how many. people were there? Because in the nine the group of nine. hell's Angels. there's a police informant. in the group and the if you read chain. of evidence it's a it's a book written. by the police officer that was his. handling him. So they the cops have a crisis of. conscience. Do they jump in.

and [clears throat] stop this conflict. or do they don't want to blow his. undercover work. and let him continue fighting? They. decide to let him continue fighting. So. there's we have specific numbers. It's, you know, if you get that book, it's in. that book. So, you've got nine Hell's. Angels fighting all these Mongols. and uh. one cop comes in there and he's.

[clears throat] got a revolver. All he's. got is a revolver, man. It's, you know, 1977. He he he. doesn't look like he's tenure. [clears throat] very much. I mean, he's. just very young looking. And I remember. the gun looking I had two thoughts. The. gun looked that big. But I also looked. at the cylinder and I go, he's only got. six shots. There's like 60 of us in here. fighting. Uh, but ballsy guy, he stopped. the fight. Uh, the Mongols broke and. they ran. They didn't break cuz they.

were afraid. They just they broke first. And I think probably part of the reason. was we were surrounded by the Mongols. We couldn't go anywhere. We were. fighting them. We were all back to back. fighting these guys. And they broke then. we broke and uh [sighs and gasps]. we had a uh. short moratorum on the violence. We said. let's don't let this escalate. Old man. John went and uh negotiated with him. later that night which I thought was a.

bad idea. I I was kind of coming up in. the club. I remember telling John, I go, "Look, negotiating, man." I go, "Let's. let them brew on it for two or three. days. let them consider what's going to. be the consequence for fighting with the. Hell's Angels. And then I said, "Then we. can go negotiate." And and you know, John was just old school upfront kind of. guy. And you know, he said, "Go in the. goddamn clubhouse. You know, you're a. new guy. You know, this is my call." And. I said, "Okay, whatever, man." So sat in. the clubhouse all night. He came back in.

the morning when the sun was coming up. and said, "Okay, you know, everything's. cool. We're not going to fight." Uh. John said, "I've had enough." You know, he stepped down as president. New guy. Ray Glor takes over. Uh. the uh shooting with Guy Castellano. takes place to kill Red Bird and Jing. Redbeard and Jingles. The bombing takes. place shortly after that on Ray's. orders. And uh probably within, you.

know, 6 months there's six murders in. Southern California. And one of them is. Los Angeles Hell's Angel's new leader. Uh he. had sent people over. to the garage. He had got busted and. then he said he wanted to empty the. garage, but what he did is he sent. people over to the garage and the the. police were waiting there. That's where the dynamite and everything.

was. And later that night, somebody went. back, shot Ray, killed him. Uh, >> [ __ ]. >> But the the the interesting thing was, so you've got 2,000 lb of dynamite. I I don't know if the anti-tank gun was. still there at that time, but you got. machine guns, you've got silencers, and. they got out of the they got they beat. the case basically. And how do.

[clears throat] you think how do you. think they beat the case? >> It it it seems very convoluted, but then. when you one of these young lawyers. comes up with the idea and he tells the. prosecutor, he goes, "You're not going. to win this case." And the prosecutor. goes, "Why not? It's you guys are dead. to right." He goes, "Well, let me ask. you this." He goes, "Was there any. dynamite in the garage when they got. there?". And he goes, "No." He goes, "Was there. any guns in there?" He said, "No, they.

had emptied the garage for community and. public safety. They'd taken all the. dynamite and. >> wow.". >> So, there was there was nothing in. there. So, in essence, they went to an. empty garage and this young hot shot. lawyer tells them, "How are you going to. prove what their state of mind was? Did. they think it was empty or did they. think it was full? You don't know." And. he goes, "I'm not putting them on the. stand. You're never going to know." And. he goes, "You can't win this case." And. basically what they did is they dropped.

the charges on two of the guys and one. guy plead guilty to possession of a. machine gun without a license and he he. got like probation, you know, time. served in probation. He just did a few. days in jail. So. people think, oh, you get voted in the. club and it's it's all over. [clears throat] with. Well, perhaps it's. just beginning. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Can we take a little break? Yeah, let's. take a break.

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show and helps us continue bringing you. independent conversations without. compromise. Visit shanryionsshow.com. and grab yours today. >> Well, what you were just talking about. was pretty interesting. You were talking. about the the 70s for the Hell's Angels. was a rough time. >> Yeah. the uh. in the as as the 70s approached.

the uh body count started mount mounting. up and when I say body count. talking about the uh [sighs]. what the police described as in-house. murders or killings Uh [sighs]. the rumor was. somebody had stole something from uh.

Sunny had broken his house and stole. something. I don't know if it's true or. not. Uh ultimately he you know he paid. for that with his life. Then there was a. gentleman named Stork that uh one of the. early informants, [clears throat]. you know, up prior to that time, nobody. had ever flipped on the Hell's Angels. Uh had a pretty solid record. And then. uh Stok uh.

was going to testify for the prosecution. in a case. He wound up shot if I recall, side of the road, unsolved murder. Then. you had Terry the [ __ ] who was in. Hell's Angel 69. Uh. Sunny took exception to. his popularity. and under underneath everything. Sunny. and him were in business together and.

there was some money owed uh. and they were waiting for a big amount. of money to come in and uh. >> what was the money for? >> LSD. [sighs]. >> LSD. >> Yeah. >> What are the primary sources of revenue. for the Hell. >> I I think and you know this is. interesting like I've always contended. and I still do even though I'm not a. member. I don't have to defend the. Hell's Angels. I like to tell it like it. is. The Hell's Angels is not a criminal.

organization, Sean. It's an organization. with criminals in it. And people. uh see opportunities and they seize. them, if you will. And I think that. there was a lot of stuff going on. There. was a gentleman named Osley. I don't. know if you've ever heard of him. uh he. was kind of the premier LSD maker in the. Bay Area and then for the West Coast he. made uh I knew him uh he made.

[clears throat] drugs for the Grateful. Dead uh and it just kind of you know. tentacled out from there was a lot of a. lot of money in it. uh [sighs]. you know there's. allegations of you know CIA. stuff and uh whatnot of. >> that it always seems. >> like MK Ultra type stuff. >> Yeah. And it always seems that.

>> was there any validity to that? >> I don't know. You know. >> MK Ultra is a real thing. >> Yeah. I I I don't know. You know it it. you know you had Timothy Liry floating. around in there. Do you remember Timothy. Larry the uh LSD uh guru? >> Oh, okay. >> Tune in, turn on and drop out. You know, you had. >> you had these things and you know, we're. coming out of the 60s. of Kennedy's assassinated, the Kennedy brothers assassinated,

Martin Luther King. I mean, you have all. these these things happening that really. create an air of paranoia, if you will. It's. >> kind of like today. >> Absolutely. You know, and of look, how do I say this? I guess I just say it. is how I say it. Uh. you've seen things that probably the. average person. they they're suspect when you tell them.

I don't think it's quite that way. anymore. It's like I've seen things I. used to tell people for years uh uh that. well you don't know what the government. really does. Uh and you know people kind. of you know things I said in the early. 80s. >> you were ahead of your time. >> Well they made me ahead of my time. because they made a believer out of me. >> You know when when investigations taking.

place we got off track but I'll I'll. swing back around. When when an. investigation is taking place and these. guys start going out of the guidelines. of investigative. uh of things that uh uh. are acceptable or legal or however you. want to describe them, you. you you have like having an awakening. You're going, "Wow, they're they're. really doing this." And uh you learn.

real fast. Uh. I had a conversation with a guy one. time. They said that I had ordered a. murder and I had 19 conversations with. the guy. Well, the tape recorder only. worked on two of the conversations. I. mean, it's very suspect. Uh you know, the the uh uh listening uh device or. recorder, whatever they were using, didn't work. the other uh you know 17.

times. Uh. I think that. getting back on [clears throat] that. that subject, uh. Sunny. had some real hard feelings for Terry. the [ __ ] Terry the [ __ ] was in that. movie. You were said you remembered the. movie. You remembered the character. Uh. the club was going through a transition. We had decided that you could not shoot. drugs anymore intervenously. Uh we're.

trying to kind of clean up some things. Uh if you ever been around any junkies, you know what they're like. I mean. they'll do anything to get that uh fix. Uh Terry kind of got pushed out of the. club. That was the main reason. But. shortly after Terry was out of the club, uh he got given a hot shot. You know, you know what a hot shot is. I don't. know if you're uh subscribed. >> I don't know what a hot shot is. >> You do or don't? >> I do not. >> Okay. A hot shot is a mixture of. narcotics that uh will.

makes you unable to breathe. I mean, you. o OD you your body ods and you shoot it. intervenously [snorts] and you succumb. to the narcotics. And uh. uh I was told by a highranking guy in. the uh Hell's Angels, I write about it. in my book, Outlaw Riding Through the. Storm, that he was ordered to go over. there and give Terry a hot shot and he. did. And uh that's another murder. Then.

you've got Gary Robels, another. strongminded Hell's Angel. He winds up. dead. You've got uh. [sighs]. Harry the Horse out of San Francisco. He. winds up dead. And you you've got this. trail of of people through the 70s that. uh are casualties of a political agenda. going on. And I'm not sure why it just. basically happens. the the whole thing.

seems to end in 1980 with the murder of. my vice president uh uh Craig [ __ ] Jesse. it was his we knew him by uh his you. know all these murders are unsolved so. when people talk about tough times the. 70s were a real tough time you've got. probably Rolling Stone did an article. about it uh. you know a decade of murders that remain. unsolved by it, you know, in house.

cleaning is how law enforcement. describes it, you know. >> Was it house cleaning? >> I I think some of it probably was. Yeah. I I mean, [clears throat] some of it we. don't know. Some of it I think was. personal. >> I mean, how high how is this? I mean, you're the head of the Ventura chapter, >> correct? >> So, where where do these hits come from? I mean, your V your VP gets killed, >> right? >> Murder, assassinated. >> Well, here you've got a situation, and. I'm speculating. Here you got a. situation that.

just you got a group of guys that come. out of Los Angeles. You've got murders. down there uh through bombings uh. through uh you know pistol. assassination, however you want to. describe it. And. they move up to Ventura. My speculation is somebody got. suspicious. Jesse picked up another uh.

Jesse's the guy that got the remember I. described the machine gun case. He. >> he he got a beef uh he was on probation. for uh possessing a machine gun without. a license. He picked up a do you are you. familiar with the term mayhem? >> No. >> Mayhem is if you and I get in a physical. altercation. that's you know that's like an assault. and battery. If [cough and clears throat] you were to. bite my ear and take part of my ear off,

then it becomes mayhem and that's a much. more serious uh degree of felony uh. you know an assault. Yeah. So Jesse got. in a fight with a bouncer. Jesse was kind of an unassuming guy, but. he was one of the toughest guys I've run. into in a long time. He goes to this bar. by himself. The bouncer got his Hell's. Angel stuff on. The bouncer starts. insulting him. They wind up getting in a. fight. Uh the bouncer's kind of a big.

guy, uh bigger than Jesse. Jesse beats. him up and bites the tip of his ear off. uh just for good measure. Gets a mayhem. beef. Somebody. becomes suspect uh that you know what if. Jesse wants to make a deal. So obviously. Jesse was involved in something in Los. Angeles that has made somebody nervous. and uh basically it's you know they're. going to eliminate uh the weak link. Whether Jesse was a wink link or not uh. no one will ever know. He's gone. I.

don't believe he was a wink link but. somebody did. And uh you know people. think that all these things are. structured. like I'm going to make. >> military unit. >> Yeah. And it [clears throat]. sometimes people take things you know. upon themselves. I don't know. You've. probably been in combat situations. >> Well, hold on. So, it's not structured. like that. So, is there is there is. there. >> is a structure, but if if Look, [clears throat]. >> murder is a serious offense.

>> Mhm. >> With no statute of limitations and you. don't want to get involved in a. conspiracy like, you know, people will. come up and talk to me about let's do. this or let's do that. of my first thought was, is this guy on. the level or is this guy recording me. and trying to set me up? I I got. arrested in 1986. because the Mexican mafia said they were.

going to kill a former associate of. ours. And I got in this dialogue uh with. this Mexican mafia member who actually. had become a FBI informant. So, he's got. me acknowledging that they're going to. kill this guy and I wind up getting a. beef. I beat the case because the jury. said, "Well, you know, Christy had no. interest in killing this guy. You guys. had an interest in killing him, but it.

was a hoax." I don't know if that makes. any sense. >> It does. What I'm asking, I want to know. how is the how is the organization. how is the organization broken down? What is its hierarchy? So is is the. Ventura chapter each seniority over a. over the uh San Diego chapter? >> Each charter is autonomous to itself. That's why the federal government has. never been successful. trying to throw a racketeering charge.

Are you familiar with the RICO? >> A little bit. >> Yeah. Uh, RICO is a specific crime. where you can take people's underlings. and take the crimes they've committed. and say they were directed by the. hierarchy. So it becomes uh racketeering. influence corrupt organization RICO. And. so if they get two or three guys.

and you get. say a group of 10 guys that they say are. part of the established hierarchy in the. Hell's Angels and you get these guys. saying yeah I killed this guy and I did. this here and I sold drugs there and I. did it all at the behest of this guy. this guy and this guy. It came down from. the top. The order came from down the. came down from the top. I completed the. uh criminal act. Uh they uh.

they become the informants and the uh. hierarchy the guys in the structure get. popped. We didn't structure the Hell's. Angels like that. Each charter is. autonomous to itself. >> I don't know if that makes sense here. >> It does make sense. But what I want to. know then is who approves who approves a. new charter. So, when you started the. charter in Ventura, Yeah. who approves. that? >> I'm I'm I'm laughing because I just. grabbed the guys and moved up there and.

started it because my philosophy was if. you're a real Hell's Angel, >> you don't take orders from anybody. You. you do what you want to do. And kind of. goes back to. when I got in trouble in the military, you know, I take it upon myself to do. something. But getting back to your. question, that's the way I did it. Was. it appropriate? No. But it was effective. because I got my charter and it lasted. uh uh, you know, it's still going today. I'm no longer involved. But it's a vote,

you know. Uh, if like when we got ready. to vote the uh uh Dirty Dozen, have you. ever heard of that club? >> Mhm. >> Dirty. You have? >> I think so. >> Yeah. The Dirty Dozen was a club in. Arizona. A very strong club. They ran. the whole state. And in the mid to late. 90s, we voted them in. as Hell's Angels. And the vote was. across the United States. Every charter.

in the United States uh had to vote on. it. And they got a unanimous vote and. they uh they became a Hell's Angel. charter. Uh but. it it's kind of complex because we're. independent yet we're structured as an. organization but we don't take like. somebody from another charter can't come. and say. I'm the international leader and this is. what you guys are going to do. Somebody.

comes to Ventura and says this is what. uh I want you guys to do. You say well. hey this is Ventura. This is our uh. community. Don't come to town and tell. us what you think we should do within. our community. We know what's best for. us as an organization, you know, get out. of here. But. it makes for a good argument in in a. courtroom of you, we get in a courtroom, let's go back or ahead or wherever we're. at to 197978.

the uh Hell's Angels in the San. Francisco area get indicted. for racketeering. Are are you familiar. with this case? >> No. >> No. Okay. So, 1979. they get indicted for racketeering. They. have one trial. and it's a mistrial. Uh they have. another trial. and it's a mistrial. So, you got two big. trials that is very expensive. [clears throat].

uh they're not successful and you're. going to uh identify with this. You know. who the prosecutor was in that case. You. don't because you don't know about the. case. But Robert Muller. was a young prosecutor in San Francisco. and he prosecuted the Hell's Angels not. once but twice. And uh. Judge Ki was really down on the Hell's. Angels. He thought that, you know, we.

should have all been found guilty. Uh, Robert Muller realized that the way the. Hell's Angels was structured and the way. we were presenting things to the jury. that they were never going to get a RICO. charge. I mean, the case was a. catastrophe. They bring in one of the uh uh paid. witnesses and this guy became a. government informant to extract himself. out of his own problem plus to receive. some financial uh uh money uh for his.

testimony. And he comes into the courtroom and they. defense attorneys start questioning him. and they said, "You did business with. this guy, right?" And uh they said, "Yes, we did." Uh how many times, you. know, he goes testimony and they said, "We'd like uh is he in the courtroom. today?" And he says, "Yes, he is. We'd. like you to point him out." The paid.

informant. identifies. Tony Sarah. Now, Tony Sarah is not a. Hell's Angel. Tony Sarah is one of our. defense attorneys. But what he doesn't. know about Tony Tony Sarah is a guy with. really long hair. Uh looks kind of like. a he could be a hippie or a biker. [snorts]. And he identifies Tony Sarah as the guy. he's been doing business with uh for the. last three or four days. The courtroom. erupts and everybody goes crazy. And.

then the guy admits I've never done. business with the Hell's Angels. The. government offered me money and they. said they I could get out of jail if I. testified. So you had situations like. that happening. Uh these these guys they. become so zealot in their quest. to find the Hell's Angels guilty or. anybody for that matter that they they. become blinded. Uh [clears throat] and.

you know justice does not get served. >> And uh uh you know I I just [gasps]. and maybe it's unfair for me. I keep. thinking, you know, I think about you as. a seal. I think about you uh uh what I. know about your past. Uh you understand. these things that things like this. happen. You know, uh it's it's not uh. what what is uh what's his name say in. that movie? It's uh not what you know,

it's what you can prove. >> You know, we didn't have these problems. [laughter] We did not have these. problems in the SEAL teams. >> You did not. >> People killing each other. >> Yeah. >> No. >> Not I can't say never, but. >> not often. >> Yeah. >> There's been some incidents. But I mean, is the leader is the president of the. Ventura? I mean, how many people are. under you? >> How many people are in that chapter? >> Well, it's at 25.

>> 25. >> 25 members at its peak. But what you. have to understand, you know, you got 25. members. Like a lot of people go, 25. members, that's not very big. Well, that's pretty big for a Hell's Angel. charter. And what you have to. understand, each guy that uh is in the. club probably has 5 to 10 people that. follow him uh and will do anything for. him because he he holds that position of. prestige in that world. A lot of people. go, "Well, that's not prestige." Well, in the outlaw bike world, you know,

being a Hell's Angel is a very. prestigious position. >> Gotcha. And so, I'm just curious as is the. president of that club and you have all. this this inner I don't know what to. call it. I guess it's not inner club, but Hell's Angel on Hell's Angel. killing, >> right? >> I mean, what is going through your head? What What are you telling your guys? I. would imagine that would be mass. confusion that. >> Yeah, it's paranoia. >> It's friendly. It's friendly. killing. friendlies. >> Yeah. And what you do.

>> so you have no [ __ ] friends. >> No. And and it becomes and that's this. is I think how the outlaw bike culture. made a 180 degree turn. You know, uh it. you sit in a room with somebody and do. you know who Jay Dobbins is? >> No. >> Jay Dobbins. Uh. if Jay Dobbins was here like you know I. like Jay he's a ATF.

he infiltrated the Hell's Angels. >> Okay I know who this guy is. Yeah. >> now Jay Dobbins was sitting here he. would say everything I've said he would. say is [ __ ] But that doesn't mean I. don't like Jay. I like Jay. He just have. a different perception of the Hell's. Angels. Uh, I think that guys like Jay. Dobbins. were amazingly effective because, and I. don't know if the government realized it. at the time,

they didn't get a lot of convictions. They didn't get long sentences, but what. they did to the Hell's Angels and to. people in the outlaw bike world in that. in that culture that are in the 1enter. type clubs, they put doubt and confusion. uh into the room cuz you're sitting in. that meeting room and you're looking. around, you're going, and I think I said. this earlier, you're going to go, "Who's. going to roll next? >> Who's going to uh uh make a deal? uh who.

here is actually working with the cops. and who is actually working for the. Hell's Angels, you know, it becomes it. becomes confusing. I. do you know who Anthony Tate is? Tony. Tate Tony Tate was a uh Hell's Angel in. Alaska. and he became an FBI informant uh for no. reason. He didn't he didn't get busted.

He just decided uh uh [clears throat]. he wanted to infiltrate the Hell's. Angels and he he went to the cops and. goes, "I think I can do this." And I. think the cops kind of laughed at him at. first and then he started, you know, making some uh progress and the FBI, this was with the local cops in Alaska. And then the FBI came in it and uh they. basically uh uh. promoted him as a Hell's Angel. Helped. him rise up in the ranks. He became uh.

West Coast Secretary. Uh no, not West Coast secretary. West. Coast chairman. Well, him and I sat in a. meeting. >> What's the West Coast chairman? >> Uh I'm not West Coast chairman. He. became the sergeant-at-arms. I was the. West Coast chairman. I was the guy that. kind of uh officiated the meetings uh. kept. >> all of the west coast. >> Yeah. >> So then there is some type of a. hierarchy. >> Well, it's an it's it is but it's an. unofficial in an unofficial capacity.

>> Okay. >> You know, it's not like it doesn't give. me any power to Okay, you're going to do. this. >> You're an organizer. >> Yes. You know, I'm facilitating the. meeting. keeping the meeting uh on on. point and trying to keep any discussion. of anything illegal illegal out of the. room because despite what people think. if you start talking about illegal. activities in an official Hell's Angel. meeting, you're going to be asked to. stop or escorted out of the room. So.

Tony Tate sitting next to me, anybody. that wants to uh look this stuff up, they can look up Anthony Tony Tate. Uh. he was a FBI informant. Uh he was a. Hell's Angel. Uh pretty effective uh as a uh. informant. He's sitting next to me in a meeting. on his left arm. He's got a cast and I. look at the cast and it's brand spanking.

new. It's white. White. You know what a. brand new cast looks like? Well, imagine. you're an outlaw biker and you've got a. cast on your arm and it's it's just. pristine white. I made me very. suspicious. I never liked Tony to begin. with, but I and it made me very. suspicious looking at the cast. Well, inside the cast. was a bug and he was trying to lead me. into a conversation. He wanted to blow. up the outlaws in Kentucky and he.

basically brought his request to a. meeting and you know there was like. probably 12 Hell's Angel presidents from. the West Coast into this meeting and if. you know we would have got engaged in a. uh conversation of killing these guys. It would have been a conspiracy beef. You know I had enough insight and. intuitive feeling that the guy was no. good that I steered the conversation. off. uh confronted him about his cast uh uh. why he didn't have any road rash. Uh he.

left the meeting, went to Sunny's house. They had got. suspicious going, "This cast isn't going. to work." They knocked his cast off and. they put the bug inside a new device. that was just kind of coming up on the. scene. And you're going to laugh when I. say it's called a pager. And so this gives you a time frame. So. Tony goes to Sunny's house and uh. he's got this pager on and uh he's got a.

bug in it. And the ironic thing is he's. at Sunny's house and. he gets a page and it's his handler. And. this isn't stuff I'm just making up. This stuff you can research this stuff. It's all out there on the computers. Uh it all became part of a case in. Kentucky, a conspiracy case. um murder. case in Kentucky. Uh he's asked Sunny, he goes, "Oh, I'm. not called for work. I I got to let me.

call in real quick." And Sunny says, "Yeah, go ahead." This is stuff's all. recorded. He calls the uh feds and they say, "You. got to get him to say this." And he. hangs up the phone, takes a. conversation, and guides it into this uh. I'm going to blow these guys up. uh I. want to and make sure it's okay with. you. There's going to be a lot of. collateral damage uh saying things of. that nature. Very cavalier comments. And.

you know, Sunny winds up getting a uh. conspiracy to commit murder beef. Uh the. trial was in Kentucky. Uh he did just. about four years for that. And uh I. think while Sunny was away in uh prison, he was in federal prison, the club went. through a lot of changes, you know, and. uh when he got back in uh the mid '9s, I. don't think he liked uh the direction.

the club was headed. And you know, I. kind of skipped here and I skipped there. and patched it in. But you have to. understand, Sunny. got that cancer call. uh he relinquished. his power after he had done that a. couple years later. He had this. revelation that he wasn't going to die. and he wanted to take his power back. I. don't know if you experienced that in. any of the SEAL teams, but if somebody's. a leader and then they relinquish their.

power, it's kind of [clears throat]. tough to get it back. I know you guys. are structured more where somebody has a. rank and in that rank is probably a a. description of, you know, what uh uh. they can and can't do and what they can. and shouldn't do. But, you know, in the. Hell's Angels, it's kind of a dog eating. dog world. It's the strong survive. And. I think that by the time Sunny came back. uh uh from his last stay in prison, that. was the last time he went to prison for.

any length of time, his his power was. very diminished. >> Interesting. You'd think they would have. more respect for him. Well, I I think he. was respected, but you have to understand uh. Sunny was taking the position that Tony. Tate was the Hell's Angel of the future, and that's how he was introducing him to. people. Uh he was referring to him as a. Hell's Angel of the future. And uh he he. really was uh somebody that created.

chaos and uh. not good. >> How so? How would he do that? Well, he. he set up uh Sunny went to prison, Irish. O Farerrell. Uh. >> he's the one that did it. >> He's the one that did it. >> Oh [ __ ]. >> And he was he was introducing him as the. Hell's Angel of the future. Wow. >> It was a misjudgment. So, you know what. happens is people look at him as a. leader and go, >> you know, I see maybe slipping a little. bit. I'm sure you've been in situations. where you've got somebody in a. leadership position.

>> maybe making a questionable call. You guys probably got to look at each. other and go, "Is this right or wrong?". >> Yeah. >> I mean, I don't I can't imagine you guys. following somebody blindly. >> No. Yeah, I know what you mean. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Wow. How did you become, you know, one thing that we didn't cover is how. you became the president so fast. What. was it about you that you think. the guys respected? >> I you know what I think it was? I think. a lot of it had to do with uh the.

structure in my life and I attribute. that to the Marines uh to the Department. of Defense. Uh I my martial arts. training uh I was, you know, really. disciplined. Uh. I'd like to party, but I was strictly a. recreational drug user. I I'd never had. a drug problem. I could walk away from. uh the party on Sunday morning and uh. not uh worry about partying again till. the next party showed up. I didn't go.

looking for the party. If I came upon a. party and I wanted to participate, I. did. But uh that's a real luxury when. you live in that world. U I don't know. what was going on uh in the military, but I think there was a point in time. narcotics were becoming a problem. True or not? I mean, I think narcotics. are always a problem. Okay. >> Um, >> yeah, I think. >> Yeah. And it became a problem to the. Hell's Angels. I think that probably one.

of the worst things that ever happened. to the Hell's Angels and the Outlaw Bite. culture was uh meth. I mean, it's just it's a mindaltering. physical and emotional uh uh drug. it uh. you know people think they have this. unlimited power and control and the. reality is uh it chips away at you. You. know. >> this actually does not sound very. similar to the military at all to be. honest. >> Okay. Well, I I I don't know. I I mean.

>> what are I mean so what are the revenue. streams? Revenue Service are. >> personal private little cartels that uh. uh people set up themselves. You know, Tony Tate, [gasps]. the FBI professed that Tony Tate was. very very successful in infiltrating the. Hell's Angels and setting Hell's Angels. up. The reality is, uh, he had access to.

people in Canada, uh, people in Europe, uh, people across the United States, and. after like a three-year investigation, I think he he busted [clears throat]. with serious offenses, maybe 10, 13. guys. I mean, that's not a lot of people. that if their contention is you're. controlling the methamphetamine market. and you uh uh are living off this, you can only get 13 guys. I think the.

people that were making the big money, they didn't want to share it with. anybody. They That's why I my contention. has always been we're not a criminal. organization. Is an organization. saturated with criminals uh independent. from the structure of the club. structure of the club is about. brotherhood, motorcycles, and uh riding, but it certainly. taken its toll. It's it's eroding uh uh. >> you know, it was eroding. That's one of. the reasons I left.

>> So, I if I'm understanding you. correctly, the revenue streams, so you. have your club members, right? The club. needs money, but maybe the club doesn't. necessarily know where the money is. coming from. So then you have all the. members of the club running their own ex. extracurricular businesses. >> The ones that want to participate, a lot. of the guys work, you know, uh you you. got to be fair about that. A lot of the. guys work. They're construction guys. They're truck drivers. Uh. >> uh but there's a lot of them that are.

hustlers, you know. >> So what how does the club make money? Do. they take a percentage of each members? >> It's it's dues. it uh uh you know. the government makes allegations the. club is worth billions and millions. Well, perhaps there's that kind of money. running through a particular group of. individuals, but the club is a nonprofit. organization. It's registered with the. United States government as a nonprofit. organization. They don't make money off.

their trademark. So it's it's very. complex issues, you know, and you know, it. the club was very simple at one time, you know, you got a motorcycle. >> Mhm. You came to the bar. You went to. the Kern River. You went to Bass Lake. You hung out at the fire. You had a beef. with somebody. Uh you got it off your. chest. Perhaps maybe you threw blows. You know, nobody went and got a gun.

Nobody went and got a knife. Nobody went. and got bullets. The worst thing was you. got to buy breakfast, man. You You know, you lost the tussle. And it, you know, it's. >> that's how it was when you went in. >> Yeah. And it's it's made this it's made. this transition that. >> uh nobody trusts anybody. Uh uh look. Sean, you're sitting in a room with a. bunch of guys. Imagine being in a room. with some guys. It's like probably like going out in a. mission. >> I used to work for the CIA.

>> I know you don't. [laughter]. >> So I get being in a room full of people. you don't [ __ ] trust. >> Yeah. And and and but and this is but. this is the thing and maybe maybe this. is the proper way to explain it. You go from. a group of seals you're on a mission. with. You love these guys. You believe. in these guys. You know you can count on. these guys. You may not agree with all. of them all the time, but you know. they're there uh when the [ __ ] comes.

down. And then you make a transition. you're trying to accomplish the same. thing, but now you're in a room of. people, you're not sure where they're. coming from, >> and. it's a slippery slope. Uh. like the end for me, it was two years, man. >> If you've been listening to the show for. a while, you know this is something I.

care about. We've had regenerative. farmers and health experts on. We've. talked about soil health, clean water, glyphosate, food security, and how. disconnected most Americans are from. where their food actually comes from. Might be time to start paying some. attention. We've talked about foreign. ownership of American farmland, China. We even did an episode that called out. the government for selling off public. lands in Utah. And when you start. looking at all of it together, you.

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>> Okay. >> You had mentioned nonprofit. I'm curious. why were the clubs set up to be. nonprofits? Were they were all the. chapters nonprofits? Well, the the the. club, [gasps and sighs]. the Hell's Angels name. >> Mhm. >> The logo is. people claim this and I I I think. there's a lot of merit to it. that the Hell's Angels brand is one of.

the most powerful and recognized brands. of in existence. Whether that's true or. not, you know, I guess that's up for. debate. When we established. in the late '7s, we thought we got to. establish a trademark board. We've got. to protect our trademark. Uh I was on. the board. Uh a gentleman I do not get. along with to this day. Uh Flash was on. the board. Done a lot for the club. Did.

a lot for the trademark. I'm not going. to take that away from him. Irish was on. the uh trademark board. You know, you. know, Irish was murdered. Uh uh. different individuals uh was I think. there might have been seven or eight of. us on initially on the board. We used. Limbach Limbach and Sutton, some very. powerful trademark attorneys on the West. Coast. They were located up in the Bay. Area and they handled I may have some of. these wrong, but I don't I don't think.

so. They handled Levi Strauss. I know. that one for sure. CocaCola. perhaps. Pep P P P P P P P P P P P P P P. P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P P. P P P P P Pepsacola. Mastercard. [clears throat]. The rest of them I couldn't really. >> Mhm. >> remember. They were insignificant to me. >> And the Hell's Angels. So you had these. trademark lawyers. uh representing these powerful. trademarks, recognizable trademarks, you. know, Levi trademark, the Mastercard, uh.

whatever it may be. I get a phone call. from uh Mr. Sutton. [clears throat]. He says, "George, I'd like to talk to. you." And I said, "Well, you know, I'm. in Southern California. I got He goes, "It's very important you come up here. I. want to I want no misunderstandings. I. want to tell you something." So, you. know, I'm I'm going this is not going to. be good. So, I I I go up there. This is. back, like I say, in early '8s. Uh you. could fly to San Francisco for 30 bucks.

There's a plane every 45 minutes, you. know, there and then went back. So, I. jump on a plane, I go up there, and Mr. Sutton says that the other trademark. brands have discovered they're also. representing the Hell's Angels. And. he said they don't want their trademark. brushing up against yours because it's. not a good image. The Hell's Angels. don't have a good image. And I mean, you. know, how can you argue with them? You. can't really. Uh, and I I understood,

but. they helped us set it up. So, it was a. nonprofit organization. and the idea really was it was about. protecting the trademark because what. happens is when you have a a powerful. trademark and you don't use it, people. will start doing like what they consider. fair use and then ultimately they'll. claim you've abandoned your trademark. because you're not using it well. You.

know, the American government set up as. a capitalist. you're not using it in a. monetary manner and they'll try to take. your trademark over. It's very. complicated. I don't understand it all, but I know. Mr. Sutton is the guy I dealt with most. of the time and he taught me several. things about trademark and. stood you got to control the narrative. You know, what does your trademark stand. for and what does it mean? You got to. control the narrative. you have to.

protect it from people infringing on it. And if you don't do that, that's that's. how you lose control of your trademark. It's just like, are you familiar with the JKD Jeep Kundo. uh Bruce Lee's martial art thing? >> What about it? Well, he he uh their. family didn't protect the trademark and. they lost control of the the logo uh and.

the JKD thing. It's it's people can use. it. Uh it's fair use is what they call. it. And that's what we were trying to. avoid with the Hell's Angels. We were. trying to make sure that the trademark. was protected. Uh it was set up as a. nonprofit organization of I'll tell you. I'll give you an example. In the mid 80s, Marvel Comics made a Hell's Angel. cartoon book.

We immediately uh got it shut down. and. we protected our trademark. We sued. them. They settled out of court for I. think $60,000. We gave the money to Ronald. [clears throat] McDonald House, Cancer. for Children, because we're a nonprofit. We couldn't profit from our logo, but we. could protect our logo, but if we if we received any money, we.

we had to give it away. Another thing, do you know who Roger Corman was? Roger. Corman was remember all the bee movies. in the 60s and 70s? Well, you're too. young. >> 82, >> huh? Yeah, I know. I'm I'm I'm just I'm. thinking about that. Roger Corman uh uh. did all the uh B movies with these were. upcoming stars like one of his directors. was Martin Scroacece, Francis Ford Copa, Jack Nicholson, uh Peter Fonda, Dennis.

Hopper. These are guys that all starred. in his films. He made a movie called Nom. Angels and uh he used our logo. We sued. him and beat him in court and like they. paid us but we had to use the money. not in a profitable way. We had to we. gave some of it away. I can't remember. what we did. Uh I remember he gave us. $60,000 for infringing on our trademark. And these are the kind of things you.

have to do to protect your trademark. Uh. but that has nothing to do I know what. what you're thinking about what you your. question is. what type of money are you bringing in. as a club? Are you talking about street. money? Uh illicit money. >> I'm talking about where do you get the. money for the building? Where do you get. the money to throw parties? Where do you. get the money to have a warehouse full. of guns, dynamite and. >> bombs and machine gun? And the the.

dynamite was stolen. [laughter]. >> Okay. >> Uh I'm I'm I'm being a smartass, but I'm. being serious. The dynamite was stolen. Uh uh but. okay, I'll give [clears throat] you an. example. Uh we started doing uh benefit. like dances and parties and whatnot at. the Ventur Clubhouse. and we the capacity of that place. including the yard. We probably get 500.

people there and we would charge five. bucks an entry fee and then we would. raffle off uh uh things. We would uh you. know buy raffle tickets and you know you. get a drawing, you win a leather coat or. you you win uh you know case of oil, whatever it may be. You sell shots of uh liquor uh behind. the bar. Uh you sell uh of hamburgers,

hot dogs, whatever it may be. And you. know, we made a lot of money that way. Uh, I've personally felt like by the. mid80s. after all these guys got arrested uh by. Tony Tate that dealing drugs, man, it. was just it was a kind of a dead end. You know, everybody's going to get. busted. And so in Ventura, I suggested. there was a few bust in Ventura, but.

they weren't real successful. They came. after me uh in 2001, but I mean the the. case collapsed, you know, they couldn't. prove anything. Were there people in the. club selling drugs? Yeah. They were. selling Vicodin. They were getting. Vicodin from an airman named uh Joshua. Adams. Uh he was my son was involved in. that. Georgie. Uh. Joshua Adams. Georgie Rahulio Batillo. was another guy. He was in a gang called.

Avenue Gangsters. uh and a couple of uh. Ventura Hell's Angels, but out of 25. guys, you had. two Hell's Angels and you know, the rest. were just associate guys getting. involved. And I think it I think it adds. substance to my argument that. people do illegal things, but they they. they confine it to themselves. They. because they want to keep the money. They don't want to bring they don't want. to risk their freedom and their ass and.

make uh $100,000 and then uh. bring it in and and turn it over to the. club, you know, and have to share it. with uh people that didn't. I mean, it's. it's just. >> interesting. >> It's greed is what it is, >> you know. So, if money was not an issue. and that the club is a nonprofit, I mean, where does the power struggle. come in? Where does the Because that's. obvious. I mean, it has to be. >> Well, I think it. >> you're talking about the 70s and all the.

all the all the inner club murders and. assassinations and all the [ __ ] that's. happening. What's motivating that? Because there's not it's it can't it's. there's no money then. I think it's. money, but you know, look, I never got deep enough into the uh uh. military [clears throat]. to understand. uh jealousies and personality uh. conflicts. It was, you know, my attitude. of the military was, you know, you have.

an MOS, uh you fulfill that job, uh you. take your orders. Uh some of them I. didn't like. Uh but. in a an outlaw type structure, I mean, you've got people making moves, trying. to uh control power, trying to control. areas. You've got the dynamics the and. you got the dynamics of uh who has more. power, me or him. It's kind of like, you. know, whose dick's bigger? It's it's.

kind of that male mentality, I think. And I think that [gasps]. [sighs]. so it's very primitive. thinking. >> Yeah. Well, >> it's not motivated by. >> it's a primitive culture. >> because I mean I don't I don't even. understand how you would take over a. territory if you do not have the funds. to get what you need to do to to to. enable that. >> Well, when you say take over a. territory, are are you talking about. narcotics trade? Are you talking about.

perceived power? Are you talking about. real power? >> I don't know. I mean, whatever you're. talking. >> a lot. Well, you know, >> I mean, if if you're saying that the guy. a lot of the guys in the clubs had had. regular jobs, >> they did. >> And then we're and then we're talking. about taking over a territory. When I. think about taking over a territory, I. think it's a I I think of gang war as. some type of. >> You're thinking a military takeover, are. you? Or. >> Yeah. But I mean there you I mean maybe.

you could do it psychologically, you. could do it with brute force. Um but. >> perhaps a combination of. >> but it would take it would take money, right? I mean even if you'd have to pay. your guy I would think that would be a. full-time a full-time thing. Hey, we're. going to take this [ __ ] territory. You guys are going to have to take off. work. Well, then how are they going to. make the a living? >> Well, it doesn't work that way. But, you. know, that's certainly a a. legitimate question. uh you know, >> you're just you're going to need guns.

You're going to need logistics, >> right? >> Logistics costs money, >> right? That's [clears throat] true. Uh. but if you're living in a small town, you lived in the town of Ventura, there's we come into the town of. Ventura, there's eight bike clubs there. There's, let me see, let's count them. There's the Moolocks, the Mongols, the. Carnales, the Syndicate, the uh Question Marks, who I'm friends. with at the time, and the Orphans. So that that's seven.

clubs there. And you just slowly run. everybody out of town. I mean, you know, that that's basically what we did. And. it wasn't for to control the narcotics. It was to control. what was going to transpire in that. town, who was going to come in that. town, who was going to be allowed in. that town. And it it sounds like uh. perhaps a lot of [ __ ] but it's not. I mean, you know, the you mentioned the. term primitive. I think the outlaw bike.

culture, it's very primitive and and. there's a lot of uh instincts going on. It's like in 1987 when I came back from. prison, I learned something that was. really unique and it just resonated with. me. The day I got to prison, I mentioned. Guy Cassie alone earlier that he killed. uh [groaning]. Redbeard and Jingles. Remember the. Mongols? >> Mhm. >> So I I go down to prison. Guys are there.

at Terminal Island prison. This is. before they had the uh holding centers. you if you got a beef in the feds, you. went right to the prison in uh uh. Terminal Island and then you went back. and forth between court and the uh. prison until your case was resolved and. then they send you off to a particular. location. But when I got there, I asked guy, I. said, "Hey guy, uh who do we have a. problem with in here?". And guy said, "We don't fight with.

anybody in here." Now, this is the war. with the Mongols was going. Uh, we had a. problem with the outlaws back east. Uh, we had on andoff problems with the. bandidos, constant problem with the pagans. [sighs]. But when I asked him that question, he. kind of startled [clears throat] me and. said, "Well, we don't fight in prison.". And I'd never been to prison before. And. I said, "What do you mean we don't fight. in prison?" He goes, "We don't fight in. prison." And so what there was was a.

unwritten rule of. >> [snorts]. >> uh you know nonviolence. Uh. so when I came home from prison I wanted. to apply that on the street. I thought. well if we're fighting. [sighs]. on the street but we're not fighting in. prison. It would make more sense to me. that we would be able to interact with. each other if we're on the street with. all the luxuries of everything we have, our bikes, our women, uh uh the the.

drugs that people want, of the alcohol, the party scene or whatever. Uh why. couldn't we apply that uh to the. everyday lifestyle of the outlaw biker? And I started petitioning people, you. know, set up a meeting with the outlaws, uh, set up a meeting with the Bandido, set up a meeting with the Mongols, eventually got an amnesty on the. violence with everybody that lasted till. 2002. Uh, and it just it kind of all unraveled.

But. that position is not popular in the. outlaw bike culture. They see it as a a. position of weakness. Uh to me. to petition people in the Hell's Angels. and the Outlaws and these other. organizations to not be violent, it. takes more nerve than the act of. violence. It's, you know, your your. manhood's getting questioned. Uh your uh.

loyalty is getting questioned. You got. all these things going on. And uh I had. some really interesting uh dialogue with. the leader of the Bandos, a guy Harry. Bowman. uh uh George Waggers, international leader of the Bandidos. U. I mean these were people that. wanted to hold on to their power. These. these are guys now you talk about. structure. These are clubs that hold. absolute power. The leaders do. And both. leaders uh uh of these clubs, you know,

one of them's in jail doing life. The. other guy, Taco, died in jail uh because. the racketeering law worked on them. because of the way they were structured. Got it. >> Yeah. Uh. so. I think. the bike culture at large is very. primitive in its thinking. You know, it's very primal. uh.

and you start fighting, it's pretty easy to get along with. people in the 60s. You see another guy. on a outlaw type look with his bike and. uh even if he might be in a club, you. kind of want to hang out with him. You. kind of want to stop, talk to him. Uh. hey, you broke down. You need anything? That was kind of the essence of the. lifestyle. Then the 70s come and it, you. know, it gets a little bit tense. Uh, the war with the outlaws breaks out back.

east. Uh, by 1977, the war with the. Mongols breaks out in the west. And you can't uh. you can feel the shift. Uh, you ever. feel the shift in something? Uh, >> yeah. You feel the shift and you go, you. know, what's going on here? And it just. ultimately changes and changes and. changes and unravels until. 1986. I go, "When are we going to end.

these wars? Why are we fighting all. these battles? Not only are they not productive, they're endless." And you know, you as a. military man, when you guys go into some place, you. have an objective, right? >> You're trying to achieve something. And. I used to ask people, I go, "This is. like these wars that we're involved. with. They're like a train with no. destination.". >> Man, I was just going to ask you that. >> There's no destination.

>> And I'm I'm trying to uh reason with. people, so I'm in a dialogue with Sunny. Uh I've. worked something out with the Bandidos. uh on territory. We'll stay in these. areas. They'll stay in their uh uh area. there'll be no uh issues, no pushing and. pulling. and. you know I go to Sunny and and this is. an open meeting with you know 12 15.

leaders in there from different charters. and I say look I want to meet with the. banditos and I said I want to take you. with me. I said, "If you if Sunny Barger. shows up at this meeting, they'll know. I'm in earnest and I go, we'll be able. to negotiate and get whatever we want.". Uh because I got the man with me, Sunny. Barger. And he wouldn't go. And I, you know, I. said, "Well, at least give me a reason. why you won't do it." And he said, "Because I just don't [ __ ] like him.".

And I think what it really was about uh. he just maybe liked the violence. I. don't know. You know, it it's I mean, how do you explain something like that? It's it's it's it's very primitive of. >> it's ego. >> Yeah. A lot of ego. >> It's it's the inability to change your. [ __ ] mind. >> And why is that? >> Because you're worried about what. everybody else thinks. >> Exactly. Yeah. It's it's absolutely and. it's [sighs].

is is that like the guy that you know. discovers the other uh uh tribe with a. cave in a you know and going that looks. a lot more comfortable than standing out. in the rain. >> And so what do they do? They you know. they decide you know we're going to get. Joe and Harry and Bill. we're going to. go over and uh maybe we'll act like. we're going to be friends with them and. you know we'll beat them with our clubs. that they've never seen before because. they've never seen weapons. I mean I you. know I don't know. I'm I can only.

speculate how this stuff happens and you. know I find it fascinating because I've. been in the middle of it and I I watch. people and I know how they think and. sometimes people are just unpredictable. Yeah, you think you figured them out. and then something happens and they go. sideways and you don't know. >> Did you total. just popped in my head? I'm. >> You're in this through Vietnam, you. know, and but and I think a I mean, I.

don't know about today, but. there was a lot of draw. There was a lot. of interest in biker clubs from. my generation coming home for more. A. lot of interest. Vietnam sounds like there was even more. interest. >> Right. >> And. I think those are some of the baddest. [ __ ] on the planet. The guys.

that served in Vietnam, >> right? >> Did you have a lot of those guys coming. in? >> We had some. [clears throat] Not a lot. I think by then. >> Do you Did they have a. >> They had their own club. >> They did. >> Vietnam vets. >> They started their own club and uh we. were never at odds with them, but we, you know, we never got close to him. But, you know, you know, I used to argue. with Sunny all the time about certain. things, but Sunny sometimes would say.

the most profound things. And. [clears throat] when. kind of had free reign, and I mentioned. that earlier, we were kind of the kings. The Hell's Angels, man. You know, everybody knew who the Hell's Angels. were. The Hell's Angels were in the. paper all the time. Hell's Angels had. movies made about them. Uh Hell's Angel. this, Hell's Angel that. And. perception perceived, perception. achieved, if you will. I don't know if. you understand what I'm saying. Sometimes people think you're tough. Per.

perception is reality. >> Yeah. They think you're tough. Uh. because that's what they read in the. paper and that's how it's perceived uh. on a movie. But you've got these guys. coming back from Vietnam and they're. going, [laughter] "Fuck those guys, man. I'm not going to do what they say." And. I I Sunday and I got in a big dialogue. about it one time. We were both on the. same page. We weren't arguing. He goes, "You know, [ __ ] Vietnam changed. everything." And I said, "What do you. mean?" He goes,

>> [laughter]. >> What? Why you laughing? >> I just I just I'm looking forward to. hearing where you go with this. >> Yeah. And I said, "Uh, what do you. mean?" And he goes, "You know," he goes, "Before the war," he goes, "We told people to do [ __ ] They just. did it." He goes, "Now they're Oh, yeah. Get off your fat ass and uh make us.". Uh, and that was basically it. There was. a lot of people that got military. training. And you know, we talked about. our roots were within the military, but.

it became diluted over a period of time. Now you've got a bunch of guys that uh. uh have gone off to war. Sunny was smart. enough to know all that. Do you remember. when Sunny Barger uh announced to uh. President Johnson, he wanted to send a. squad of Hell's Angels uh you know, he. wanted them to be trained and all that. stuff. >> Look, Sunny's smart enough to know that. was never going to happen. But god damn, it was great publicity. I mean, you.

know, it was all over the news and uh uh. you know, talk about controlling the. narrative. I mean, Sunny knew how to. control the narrative. You know, he it. wasn't real sophisticated. >> Uh but some of the stuff he came up. with, you know, it you know, it was. short of brilliant, you know, but. I think the Vietnam War changed a lot of. things uh in this country as far as. people doing something. And then you. have to understand. and I'm speaking from experience as an.

old man. Okay, I'm almost 80. I'm going. to be 80 here in a year less a little. over a year. [snorts]. People come back from Vietnam. It was a. very unpopular war. Now you're a. military man. So, you know, and you. respect. all those people that were in country, but there were a lot of people in the. United States that didn't find. them very attractive, didn't find them. very heroic, and it was wrong.

>> But you guys came back from the United. States getting attacked. at 9/11, and it was it's a whole. different ballgame, man. I mean, you had. the I it was almost like the country was. unified and it's. >> at the beginning. >> Yeah, in the beginning. Uh uh and but it. gets it all gets diluted. It the. >> Well, it never got as bad as Vietnam. coming home. Not even [ __ ] close. But. it did get it did. >> Yeah. I I get.

>> very underreappreciated. >> Let me Can I ask you a question? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Okay. Before you guys go into combat, I don't. know if this is true. I have a couple of. friends that are SEALs, ex SEALs. actually. Uh, did they used to give you. guys a psychological evaluation. >> every time? >> Before you went into combat? >> No. No. >> No. >> And initially? >> Initially to get into the teams there. >> And did they give you one after your. missions?

>> No. >> When you came back, that that's the. thing that kind of alarmed me uh that. they put you guys in these. precarious, awkward positions and. you come back and it's like I mean what. do they what do they do for you? And and. you know my daughter goes to. >> they don't do anything cuz. >> my daughter goes to mil my daughter's a. lawyer and she takes advantage of uh. military uh I can't remember veterans. court or. >> it's a special court. It's criminal.

court. Veterans. >> civilian what's that? >> Veterans court. >> Yeah. and and she's used it several. times and uh uh it's beneficial for the. for the veterans, but it it appears that. bring these people back and just kind of. turn them loose and uh. going to take a chance here and and. equate this together. I'm sure some. people out there going to go, "This is. bullshit." But I'll tell you when I came.

back from prison and so. in 2007 there was a fire bombing two. fire bombings at tattoo shops in. Ventura. Of course they said I was responsible. I. I gave the order. I didn't certainly. didn't do it but I gave the order. Uh. by 2011, uh I get indicted.

2013, we start going to trial. Uh. the case starts collapsing. Uh my. daughter's like hammering away at stuff. with another lawyer. They offer a sweet. deal. I take the deal cuz I'm on count. six, seven, and eight. I'm looking at. mandatory minimums of life. And you know. what that sentence is? you know, you get. found guilty in one of those counts, you. go to prison for life. It's just a. mandatory uh sentence. So, it's I now come back. It's 2014 or 2015.

and I stay on parole or probation, whatever you want to call it. Feds. changed it. They don't call it parole. anymore. They call it probation. Stay on. uh probation till 2018. So that's 11 years. You've got the. investigation going on. You know, the. cops are crawling around. They're. investigating you. They're asking. questions. Then you get the beef. Then.

you've got the pending trial. Then you. do your sentence. And then you come home. and do your uh uh. probation, parole, whatever you want to. call it. [gasps]. Not once, not once did they ever ask me how my. re-entry into society was. All they. wanted to do and all their interest was. they thought I had a bunch of money. hidden somewhere. They were looking for. the money and they wanted their fair.

share of any money I had. Uh any money I. made. I did a show uh Outlaw Chronicles. Uh they wanted to take all my money. They said I wasn't uh I shouldn't uh. profit off my criminal past. Uh you. know, you can imagine what they were. saying. >> Who is this? Who is they? >> United States Probation Office. So, they never once asked me and I I. guess the point I'm trying to make is, you know,

I don't know what the count is now. What. is it over a quarter million quarter. million people incarcerated in the. United States? I I actually. >> I mean it's a big business you know and. what's interesting is everybody. >> and each family it always it seems at. one time. people didn't talk about family member. going to prison. It was kind of. embarrassing. It's now it seems like. every family's at least got one family. member that went to prison for something. because it's become such a big business.

I guess I'm just uh using this platform. to complain that uh uh you know they put. people in a position they put you guys. in a position like I said you come back. uh. I mean you just went over there you. engaged some people you know I don't. know what you did or didn't do how does. that affect you guys uh uh. >> I mean it's out it's horrible I mean it. is the it's the it's I mean suicide is. The suicide rate is insane. The divorce.

rate is insane. The addiction rate is. [ __ ] insane. >> I mean, but I don't think it's a. conspiracy. I think that I think that. the country literally just doesn't give. a [ __ ] about veterans. And they've. proven that over and over and over since. [ __ ] World War II. They just don't. >> The country doesn't give a [ __ ] The. government doesn't give a [ __ ] The. people don't give a [ __ ]. >> So, if they did, it wouldn't be this. way. >> Okay. So, we've got a 98%.

conviction rate with the feds. And I I. don't want to insult anybody. I'm not. not comparing uh exconvicts to military. or whatever. Trying to make a you know, I'm trying to make a comparison here, but not that in the same manner that. some people may misinterpret. Don't. misinterpret what I'm saying. Uh. the. conviction rate is 98%. It's pretty.

goddamn high. And you know, the feds, there's a lot of veterans in federal. prison uh uh for just various things. A. lot of people said they've been put in. in. uh scams like uh selling them weapons, uh doing this, doing that. I was in. Texas. There was a couple Navy Seals. down there. I don't I don't I didn't get. close to them. I don't know what they. were there for. Didn't ask You don't ask. people what they're what they're doing.

But. why are the prisons so full? And I think. a lot of it is in 1986, I fought my case. I pled not guilty and. I fought my case and I beat it. I proved. that the government framed me. Uh the. jury came back and said they want to. send a message to Washington to knock. this [ __ ] off. and. 2013.

my my daughter and I, you know, we. talked it over. She didn't think she. could win the case. She goes, "I think. because of the publicity, I think. because the outlaw bike movement has. gotten so big and it's a worldwide. phenomena." She goes, "I don't think. you're going to get a fair trial." And. she goes, We got to hammer at these guys and chip. them away to where they offer you a. deal. And I think that's why the prisons. are so full. >> And you know what point am I trying to. make? I guess I'm just getting on the. soap box here a little bit. And uh uh.

>> I know it's something you're very. passionate about. >> Yeah. You know, it's you know, people. don't get it. You know, I had a prison. I'm a expert witness in trials for the. defense. Something that defense lawyers. never had in the outlaw bike cases. Uh, I also had a prison consulting business. and you know I would try to help people. come to terms with. what was going on in their life. And you. know I had this story I tell. [sighs and gasps].

I had a guy call me one day. I he was a. client of mine and uh. I tried to touch base with him, you. know, two or three times a week and. every time he went to court and when he. got done with court, if I wasn't in. court with him, sometimes it wasn't good. for me to appear in court with him. because. in California, I'm very recognizable and. especially law enforcement, it's it's. not appropriate. uh and he was really down and uh I said,

"What's the problem?" You know, he goes, "Well, you know, George, they're treating me like a criminal.". And I said, "You are a criminal." And. that [clears throat] I think sometimes. people just can't come to terms with the. situations they put themselves in. Now, I I don't know what it is for vets. I I. tell you, if I uh had all the money in. the world, that's probably what I would. focus on. Vets and dogs, cuz I love my. animals. Uh but I mean, I had to make.

this guy understand, you know, they're. treating him like a criminal be because. he embezzled a bunch of money from a. movie company. >> Mhm. >> And uh. [gasps and sighs]. I I don't know. Uh uh I just don't know. where we're heading as a country. That's. all. I guess I'm just venting a little. bit. >> I think a lot of people are wondering. where we're heading as a country and I. think they've been thinking that for a. long damn time.

>> Yeah. But well, you know, it it's like. I. was successful for about a decade. in uh having an amnesty, you know, uh. got along with the outlaws, got along. with the Bandidos. It was a war in Are. you familiar with the Nordic bike war? >> No. >> Was a just a hellacious war between the. Hell's Angels of Bandidos in uh Europe. I was instrumental in uh uh along with.

George Waggers, the international. president of the Bandidos in stopping. that. The. Scandinavian governments uh the Danish. government uh uh specifically petitioned. the United States government. They. wanted two. felons to be allowed permission to enter. the United States so George Waggers and. I could sit with them uh and try to. negotiate a peace. And uh the Hell's.

Angel representative, his name was. Blondie. I I don't know his real name. I. can't remember it. He was a uh convicted. double murderer. uh. the Scandinavian government convinced. the American government to let him enter. into the United States and come to this. meeting. The uh Bandido representative. was a guy named Jim Tinian. I think he. was an international uh leader of the. Bandidos in Europe. Uh.

[snorts and clears throat] so we had. George Waggers, myself, Blondie, and. Jim. And we had a special number that if. anybody in law enforcement interfered, we were to hand them the piece of paper. and there was a I don't know who it was. in Washington, but uh they would tell. them to stand down and let us finish. doing what we were doing. They had a I. don't know how long the visa was for. They had a special visa to get into the. country, negotiate. They did. Then they. went back uh they went back.

and uh settled the war. They publicly. met with the politicians and a lawyer. and it was crazy. They announced it over. uh Danish TV that uh the war between the. Hell's Angel of Bandidos was now over. It uh wow it it's it was it was quite a. scene. Uh but. everything seemed to be going. It was. very unsteady and very I was constantly. negotiating with people uh trying to go.

to Europe. I I went to Europe one time. I went to Amsterdam. I was refused. entry. Uh they had a 5-day hold on me. I. was meeting with the Bandidos and Hell's. Angels over there. Tried to put the lid. There was some fires that were trying to. put them out. Uh. refused me entre put me on a plane to. send me back just by chance. I wound up. in Texas. Wound up meeting with the. Bandidos. Anyways, I met with them in. Texas instead of of Europe. I wanted to. go to Europe cuz I thought it would be.

more effective. But. so we had a a. amnesty on the violence with the. outlaws, the bandidos, the Mongols. I was trying to negotiate. with the pagans, but I never really got. anywhere with them. They just had no. interest in uh. [snorts] negotiating. and everything was shaky. >> How would you negotiate? >> How would I negotiate? [clears throat]. >> Yeah. What are you negotiating? Peace.

>> Peace. Uh uh stop the violence. Uh when. I ride through Chicago, is it really. necessary to shoot at me? I'm on my. bike. I'm riding from point A to point. B. Uh I'm not there. I'm not trying to. set up a town uh charter. I'm I'm not. interfering in anything you guys got. going. I'm just trying to get from one. point to the other. And I I I was. successful. [sighs]. But the bottom line is, you know, we.

said earlier, it's just it's primal. That whole outlaw culture is very. primal. And people just. they just didn't want to uh be perceived. as being weak. And I, you know, just. before the uh uh arrangement with the. outlaws was suspended, uh the peace talks were called off, uh. you know, I talked to Taco one day about. it and uh he said, you know, George, he. goes, I don't know how much longer I can.

do this. He goes, I'm my positions is. threatened. There was an up andcoming. guy named Spike that uh basically. told uh uh Taco that he was uh. uh being perceived as weak by the club. And [clears throat] uh Spike must have. been very convincing because if you look. up on the internet uh United States of. America versus Harry Bowman, you'll see. that he put a uh murder contract on me.

and they actually came to Ventura not. once but twice. Uh I think the first. time was just surveillance. The second. time they came there uh you know to. shoot me. Whatever reason they didn't. Uh. >> why do you think they wanted to kill. you? I think that uh Spike was uh an ex. ranger uh [clears throat] army ranger. very aggressive guy and I think he had. his eye on Taco's uh job uh as.

international leader and I think that uh. he felt that this would solidify him at. least to put him up in the same level as. Taco. Taco was a real ruthless guy. Uh. him and I ne negotiated for probably. three years. Met with him twice in. person. Uh I lost count of the phone. calls I had with him. But uh. Paco died of [snorts] cancer in prison.

He uh they wouldn't even give him a. compassion to leave to come home and die. in his own bed. I mean he they let him. die in prison. That's how much they. disliked him. and Spike uh I don't know. if you want to call him describe him as. top lieutenant uh he's doing a life for. rakateeering you know uh it just. these guys just don't want to be. perceived as weak and you know Taco said. that to me and I said you know Taco's. not a popular position world we live in.

but I said I think it's a necessary. position you know my my thought is every. time we shoot at each whether uh or we. get a case and somebody goes to prison. or somebody gets killed. I mean, we. don't win anything. You know, I think. the the government wins. >> I think that uh like I said, you you. know, you talk to Jay Dobbins. Uh he has. a particular uh thought of what we're.

all about. He thinks we're all about. crime and criminal activity. Thinks the. club does it as a whole. Uh, you know, I. interviewed Jay myself and I, you know, I mean, we had a a cordial conversation, but I, you know, I don't agree with. anything he says. Uh, I can't get him to. concede that, uh, it it it's not the. club, it's individuals in the club. The. club wasn't established uh, for that. reason. The club was about riding and. brotherhood and building motorcycles. And probably why I walked away because.

we lost sight, you know, somewhere along. the way. Yeah. I mean, it definitely. attracts a certain culture. >> It does. >> Aging is inevitable. And if you're. anything like me, you feel it a little. more every year. Sore knees, tight. joints, recovery takes longer than it. used to. We can't stop the clock, but we. can take care of ourselves. That's why I. take Bub's Naturals collagen peptides. I.

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ambience videos that you're not going to. find anywhere else. Join the Patreon community today and get. access to the full experience. Why did you What was it that made you. walk away? Uh Sunny and I continually uh were. fighting about the protocol. uh rules. He was bending the rules. Uh I.

uh every time I confront him, it would. turn into a big chaotic scene. uh [sighs]. in 2002. had a member named Josh uh Harbor. He. went to Cave Creek. to party and have fun. Uh. and somebody killed him and he was a.

Ventura Hell's Angel. and word on the. street and through law enforcement was. that he. that was a [clears throat] message to me. from Sunny. Whether that's true or not, I don't know. Sunny and I never had that. conversation. But subsequently, 6 months. later, 4 months later, uh Sunny's one of. Sunny's guys got murdered and law. enforcement said that was my answer. I. think that was kind of the beginning of. the end. It still took me like another.

eight years if you will, but I just felt. like we were losing. the sight of where we were trying to. head. You know, it's like and when. you're a leader, you know, you want to. reach a goal, you want to try to achieve. something. and you have a vision and if the people. around you aren't sharing the vision. anymore, you know, maybe you're not an. effective leader anymore. You know, I. think Sunny I I have a saying, you know, don't make yourself uh bigger than the. position you hold. And I think Sunny did.

that. I think he lost a concept. He made. himself very large. >> Don't fall for your own [ __ ]. >> Sunny had uh. done several things that I didn't think. was appropriate. You know, I confronted him. Uh the club. seemed to be divided. the uh there's a lot of speculation from. law enforcement. Who was really running. the club? Was it me? Was it Sunny?

And you know, >> were you guys both in Ventura? >> No, he's in he was in Oakland, then he. went to Arizona, then he returned to Oakland. Uh. he. [sighs and gasps]. pretty much did what he wanted. >> Gotcha. >> That was Sunny Barger, you know. and. love it, hate it, or condemn it. I mean, it just was what it was. And you knew he. was going to do that. Uh,

>> true outlaw. >> Yeah, absolutely. You know, and I I. respected him for it and I hated him for. it at times because he didn't. do what was best for the club. I felt. like he did what was best for him. He. was a type of guy, I'm sure you've ran. into this in the military. You run into. guys that will not reverse themselves. You know, you know, you can show them in. black and white it's wrong. They will not accept responsibility.

Uh probably around 2008, 2009, can't remember exactly where of. I started thinking about. Maybe it's time, you know, to move on, you know, and and. [sighs]. there was one thing that kept stopping. me. It was my ego. Did I want to be the guy that used to be.

George Christie and. a really difficult uh uh time. [sighs]. I did it kind of on a. without telling anybody. didn't even. discuss it with uh my son, discuss it. with nobody. I went to the meeting, explained what I was doing. They first. of all, they misunderstood. They thought. I was stepping down as president. And I. said, "No, this is it for me. I've, you. know, I've give you 40 years. It's time.

for me to move on.". Uh, and I I I gave what I thought was a kind. of a passionate speech, you know. I. said, "We're fighting with the bandidos. again, fighting with the Mongols, we're. fighting with the outlaws, uh, fighting with the pagans, and. now you guys want to fight the VOS.". This was a bike club we had gotten along. with since the mid60s,

and they wanted to fight these guys. And. my position with them was when I get. phone calls from another club and says, "Hey, what's the problem, George? You. know, we've always gotten along. Why why. is there an issue now?". And we can't find a way to resolve the. issues. that that make kind of makes me feel. like we're being bullies. When you when. you pick on somebody, whether you win or. lose, when you pick on somebody, you're. you're being a bully, you know? Uh,

so I just basically said, "Look, we're. fighting wars. on four fronts. Now we're going to have. a fifth front with the VGO." And I said, "Don't forget law enforcement." Uh, and. I said, "Look, uh, if you look at your history, when societies or cultures run out of. people to fight, they turn inward." And. I said, "I don't want to be here for. that." And uh I said, "I think I'm.

played out. I give you guys 40 years. I'm going to move on." I took my patch. off. I folded it up. I put it on the. edge of the table by my chair where I. sat at a chair at the kind of head of. the room. And. I [clears throat] remember I said, "Look, we've turned into the people we build. against." I go, "We're not outlaws. anymore." And I said, "I want to get. back to the roots, and this is what I'm. going to do." But I said, 'I want you to. keep in mind. that you guys need to do something.

because there's going to be a problem in. the future. About 6 weeks later, four weeks later, uh something transpired up in Reno, Nevada, uh Jethro, who was president of. San Jose, who was a good friend of mine, got in an argument with one of the. vagos, and they shot him and killed him. So. Jethro is now murdered by the boss. So. we're a full-on war.

at the. funeral in San Jose. Uh. Steve uh I think it was. Ruez. He was a Hell's Angel. and uh. Steve Tosen, another Hell's Angel who had a. reputation of of just being fierce as a. fighter. And he started picking on Ruas,

telling Ruis it was he. was responsible for Jeff Pedigrew's. murder, that he should have protected. him better. He was the president. They. started arguing and uh Steve Tossen's. reputation caught up with him. He. punched uh Steve Ruis. and. Steve responded by shooting him three. times. So you've got a a funeral to. 7,000 spectators. You got Hell's Angels.

being Hell's Angel being buried uh uh. had been murdered. And you've got two. Hell's Angels now fighting who's. responsible and one of them gets. murdered. It was just a chaotic scene. I. wasn't there, but I'm told it was a. chaotic scene. Uh. Ruiz snuck out of there somehow. They couldn't locate him. The police. thought that perhaps Ruiz had got thrown. in Jeff Pedigrew's grave site and they.

exumed Jeff's body a couple days later. They didn't open the casket, but they. they pulled the uh casket out, looked. underneath it to make sure Ruus wasn't. there. Eventually, they arrested him 3. months later. Uh. so what I predicted basically came true. You know, was I happy about it? No, not. happy at all. You know, Jeff was dead. Jeff Pedigrew Jethro was dead. Steve was dead. Uh Ruis was going to go.

to prison for three years. Uh, he put on. a defense. because Steve Tossen, I said he had a. fierce reputation. He had killed. somebody with his bare hands before by. punching him. He had hit a guy uh at a. bar. He was a security guard at a bar. He hit a guy and the guy died from the. punch. So, uh, I I left I left in good standing.

Within a couple of weeks, Sunny changed. my status to outbad. Wouldn't allow. anybody to communicate with me and uh. basically uh tried to cut off any. influence he thought I still might have. And uh. he attacked my character and things. slowly started unraveling for me. uh. made a deal, went to prison, plead. guilty to uh of one what was it account.

of uh interfering in you're going to. love this interfering in interstate. commerce, you know, uh by firebombing. They said I. ordered the firebombing by firebombing. the tattoo shops. I interfered in their ability to to make. money. So, it's interfering in. interstate commerce. It's a federal. crime. I mean, it's kind of one of those. >> interesting. >> What's that? >> Interesting. [clears throat]. >> Yeah. It's kind of one of those.

racketeering uh crimes, but you know, you're not recoed. It's a it's a federal. crime. Uh. I went to jail. I came back. Uh Sunny. got word that the History Channel had. approached me about doing a six episode. series. told me I couldn't do it. Uh, I. did it. Uh, [clears throat] told me I. couldn't write a book. I did it. He. threatened to sue uh, uh, St. Martin,

the book publisher. I did the book with. my first book, Exile. Uh, just was real careful, you know, what we. put in the book, uh, what was said, what, you know, wasn't said. Uh, you. know, the book was was successful. Outlaw crimes was successful. I wrote a. second book. Like I stated earlier, I I. wound up going to uh Spain. The book was. optioned. and uh. spent three years in Spain. I came back.

Uh. I was single now. I married a girl that. I'd known since I was 12. Uh we're. lifelong friends. and uh. kind of started over and uh I uh. >> I want to ask you something. >> Okay. >> What do you think happens when you die? >> What do I think happens when you die? >> In all honesty, I do not know. I believe. in a higher power.

Uh, I've, you know, I like to micro dose and I I I. contemplate on uh uh where I'm going and. what I'm doing. I think. per perhaps hell is here on earth. or perhaps if you leave this planet uh. and you're not uh.

satisfied. with how you conducted yourself. I mean. even bad people have to have that little. voice in their head telling them, "Hey. man, you're [ __ ] up." You know, I. just I I just truly believe that. Uh and. I the reason I believe that is. interacting with all these men. for decades, some of them uh very. dangerous and uh.

I think their biggest enemy most of the. time was themselves. I don't know. What do you think? >> What do I think? >> Yeah. >> Well, I'm a Christian. Oh, you're a. Christian. There you go. Okay. >> You go to heaven or you go to hell. That's about it. >> Well, I'll tell you, uh, I got, uh, I came back. I was very satisfied. really. Uh uh my wife and I uh were.

having a lot of fun and I got a phone. call and that was the premise for this. book, Crossing the Rubicon. I uh. I got a phone call from a club member. Club members aren't supposed to talk to. me and they can be punished uh by, you. know, an ass chewing all the way to. being expelled from the club for. communicating to me or with me. And the guy said, ' Do you recognize my.

voice? And uh I said, 'Yeah.' And uh I. said something smartass to him. He goes, "This is my rabbi." And uh. he said, "Look, I I called you." And. he used the term, you know what we what. his close friends used to call Ralph? Are you familiar with that? We used to. Sunny name is Ralph. >> Okay. >> So we would say, "Hey, Ralph." you know, like if I was want to really be serious. or brotherly, I go, "Ralph, you know, I.

want to talk to you, man. I want you to. listen to what I'm saying." So, anyways, the person on the other end said, "If. you're going to reconcile with Ralph,". he goes, "You need to do it because he's. not going to be around much longer." And. uh. I got up out of bed, made myself a cup. of coffee and I I started thinking about. all these decades of interacting with. all these people and in the morning I.

started writing this book and it it took. me three years. Uh. I wrote it and the ending. the ending was true but it was I felt it. was soft. and. I just said, "Hey, you know what? I'm. going to pull all the [ __ ] away.". And uh because people ask, you know, why. don't you go back or why don't you try. to reconcile? And I explain all that in. the ending of this book. But uh. it's interesting that uh you know, you.

tell me you either go to heaven or you. go to hell. And uh I'm not going to say. what it is, but I have a message for. Sunny at the end of the book. But. anyways, so how did you become a Christian? That. interests me. >> How did I become a Christian? [sighs]. >> That is a long story, but um. I was going through some serious.

internal battles. >> with yourself. >> Yeah. and um. >> crisis of conscience or. emotional unstability or. >> um very troubled with the world. >> Okay. >> Angry at the world or just. >> angry at the world. A lot to do with. kids. A lot of I've started diving into. [sighs]. a lot of the [ __ ] that happens to kids. sexually. >> Okay. >> And uh exploitation, trafficking, you. know,

>> abuse, all that kind of stuff. And I got. really deep into it. And um. and then. u. some of this minor and possession or. minor attracted persons. Have you heard. about this [ __ ] There is a section of. the country who wants to make. people that are attracted to kids a. condition and they want to call them. minor attracted persons. And that makes.

it okay. >> That makes it okay in their mind. >> That's going to be a problem, you know. Let me tell you. >> So, okay, >> let me finish. So. >> now I was very I still am very vocal. about it and uh I just didn't really see. people doing anything and a lot of the. people that I um. respected. leaned that way politically and I just. could not understand how you could how. you could uh. be okay with that. And um anyways,

[clears throat] so having this internal. battle in my head and and uh I had uh. basically. tried to convince myself, Sean, this if you're the only one out. here fighting this [ __ ] who [ __ ]. cares? Maybe you're the one that's. [ __ ] up. Maybe you shouldn't be doing. this [ __ ] Maybe you should just let it. happen. Not that I'm [ __ ] stopping. anything anyways, right? But uh it just. really troubled me and I just couldn't.

understand like how it was happening. And um. in in short it it it I was on a hike and. I had felt like I was uh had just. surrendered my [ __ ] soul to the to. the devil, you know, but I didn't really. believe at that time. And I walk through. this gate. We were on a me and my wife. were on a vacation. And I walk through. this gate and this guy comes up to me. and um tries to talk to me. I don't want. to talk to him. Obviously, I'm in a. [ __ ] mood, right? And uh and I had I.

had smoked a joint before I went on this. hike. I try to calm myself down. That. didn't do a damn was. >> working really. >> Uh-uh. And my of course my wife turns. around and talks to him, but I'm like, "Fuck, you know, I just want to go to. bed." And um so I turn around and I look. at him and he [ __ ] looked at me in. the eyes and he read every single. thought from front to back in my [ __ ]. brain and articulated it and said, "You.

don't need to be worrying about these. kids. That's not your [ __ ] problem. That's not your battle." And then he. went through all the other things. There. was stuff about trans kids. There was. stuff about China. All these things were. going on in my head. And uh after the. first thing, I I blanked out cuz I. couldn't understand how another. >> It's almost like it's too much. information coming in. >> I hadn't even articulated this [ __ ] to. my wife. >> Yeah. >> And this guy's just yanking thought. after thought after thought.

>> Who is this guy? >> I've never seen him. Never seen him. >> We were there for a week. We were there. for a week. And I'm, you know, I was a. SEAL. I contracted for CIA. I pay. attention to security and uh and a lot. of those guys that were working at that. gate knew who I was uh from the from the. podcast. So I had, you know, stopped and talked. with them. Never saw this guy though. Knew the other ones. Never saw this guy. >> Never saw him again.

>> Never saw him before. Never saw him. again. This was the last night. So he reads my mind. Legitimately reads. my [ __ ] mind. And uh I walk back. I'm. walking back to my bungalow and um. talking to my wife and I'm freaking out. because I'm I'll tell her I go, "Holy. [ __ ] I think that was [ __ ] God. talking to me." And um. before that, there's some other things. that happened. I'll I'll shorten it up a. little bit, though. Three things. happened. There was another guy, my best.

friend, died of a heroin addiction. He. was uh he was u he was a SEAL. We. contracted at CIA together. Um, I didn't. wind up joining a biker gang obviously, but I did go down to Colombia and got. really wrapped up into drugs down there. >> and he was with me. And um, so anyways, point being, we were very, very close. He was my best friend. And uh, but he. was also always known as a protector. He. was a pro hockey player before he was a. SEAL. He was a SEAL. He was a CIA.

contractor. in each one of those. segments of his life. Everybody around. him considered him to be a protector at. every level. And um and I had tried to save his life. He had moved in with me. D obviously you. know you know the how it end. Anyways, we go there. I'm in this super. vulner vulnerable position. There's this. guy running around all [ __ ] weak. He. looks exactly like my best friend. If we. go out in town, he was out in town. If.

we're on a hike, he's on a hike. It was. really odd. We're at the pool, he's at. the pool. If we're at the [ __ ]. restaurant, he's somewhere in the. restaurant. [sighs]. Turns out we'd been there all week. We. walked back to the bungalow from the. gate, maybe a 3 to 5 minute walk. The. entire time we were there, it turns out. there was only two thing, two two rooms. in this bungalow. It was like a duplex. He was in the other [ __ ] side. So, first time I'd seen him, so that was a. sign. Then I walk in the room and I had.

went there and I don't really have many. friends anymore and uh especially here. in town and uh I had met another seal. and uh his name was Dan Cerillo. and um me and him had a special bond. He. owned a a handful of hospitals and had a. a very successful security company and I. have this and it was one of the only. relationships I've ever had in town. where I don't [ __ ] need anything from.

you and you don't need anything from me. so we don't have to worry about the asks. and we can just sit down and be friends. and not have to worry about what the. [ __ ] do you want from me. Well, he died. and [clears throat] that really bothered. me because it was my only friend here. >> Young guy? >> No, old guy. Died in my opinion had a. great death. Uh died on a hunting trip. with his son and um I mean I wish he was. still here, but if there's a way to go.

and you get, you know, >> I get it. >> And uh [clears throat] anyway, so as. soon we walk in the hotel, me and my. wife are having a discussion. My cell. phone dings. I don't answer because I'm. in this heavy discussion like what the. hell is going on? How did this guy just. read my [ __ ] mind? Check the check my. phone afterwards. It's his daughter who. I had never met and she sent me a text. that said that she had just walked into. her dad's gun room for the first time. since he had passed. and he was in there. and he told her that he wanted her to.

reach out to me because I was his I was. the person that had become the closest. to him and that I knew a side of him. that she didn't know. And that for those. three things to all happen damn near. simultaneously, literally within minutes. of each other, I knew. something somebody was trying to [ __ ]. tell me. >> and I could go on because the [ __ ].

continues on, but it didn't continue on. until I got home. So, I started looking. into some of the stuff that had happened. and uh I had called. um a friend of mine who wound up being a. spiritual mentor of mine. His name's. Eddie Penny. He was a SEAL team six guy. and uh I'll send you the episode. >> Okay. >> And uh I served with him very briefly. Um I wouldn't say we were close. We did. a deployment together and then he went. on to the development group. I hadn't.

heard from him for [ __ ] probably 10, 15 years. Then I brought him on the show. and he talked about his how he found. faith. This guy back when I knew him. before, he's just a he's a [ __ ] savage. Never in a million years would you think. that would happen to this guy. and he. told me this and the and just like this.

told me how it happened and I released. his episode on Christmas Eve. Every single person since him has. brought up Christ one way or another for. for over a year. So I called him and he started kind of. telling me what some of the stuff means. and then then my whole team here turns. out I didn't even know this but my whole. team here uh very well-versed in this.

So it was almost like. um after that moment I was just. completely surrounded with people that. could guide me in the right direction. You know I hope that happens for you. Well, that would be nice. You know, I'm. I'm thinking, >> you know, I heard you talk about micro. doing. >> I have another, >> you know, I don't know how seriously you. take psychedelics or if you even do.

plant medicine, but I have another best. friend. >> uh in and so when I go do that, I I am. um I always have an intention that I. want to get out of it if I do a heavy. dose. And I did a journey with another. one of my best friends. His name was. Nick is Nick Kevalus and uh he's still a. good friend of mine. He was a Mars. marine marine raider. and um we did a journey together um.

out in the woods several years ago and I. asked him afterwards what his intentions. were and he said he just wanted to know. if he had a relationship with God. cuz he wasn't a believer either. And in. the same [ __ ] journey, I looked at. this waterfall with him and uh. a perfect.

sculpture of Jesus Christ's head. was etched in that waterfall. And we looked away or I looked away, looked back, still there. Walked away, still there. was there all [ __ ] night. until the next day I woke up and then I. did not see it. >> So the initial guy [sighs]. could have been an angel. You think that. uh. >> Well, I will finish the story cuz now.

you're interested. So then I come home. and I told you I called Eddie Penny, >> right? >> And I told him what had happened to me. This all happened in Sedona. And. Eddie started telling me, "All right, this is what this is." And my wife's. telling me, too, like, "Sean, God's. always been around you. You just don't. [ __ ] take the time to pay attention, and that's why you never see it, but. look at your life. Look at what's. happened. He's everywhere around you.".

And so I call Eddie. I I tell him this. and I um late at night down in a fire. and uh he starts telling me, "You've. chosen a side now. All these attacks are. going to happen. These spiritual attacks. are going to start to happen because. that nobody gives a [ __ ] if you're. sitting on the sideline, but once you. choose a side, the attacks will start to. happen.". And [clears throat]. so he starts telling me about guardian.

angels. and that everybody has a guardian angel. Now I'm very new at this. Even though I. grew up Catholic, I still I just, you. know, I didn't believe. I was a kid. I. was forced to do it. I didn't really. care. And then lost pretty much everything. when I went to war. And um. the next day I have a meeting with my IT. guy and I thought it was going to be. about. it [ __ ] and he's a very devout Catholic.

and I had a call with him at noon. I. remember at noon. it was a long call and uh it wasn't. about it [ __ ] It was the exact same. conversation that Eddie Penny had had. with me and those two don't know each. other. couldn't be farther apart from. their personalities. They would not get. along. They and and he starts telling me. spiritual attacks are going to start to. happen. You have guardian angel. They've.

known you since before you were born. And I'm still like, "Yeah, okay, whatever.". [cough] So, I [clears throat] drive home. for a late lunch, have lunch with my wife, tell her about. these conversations. I'm driving back to. work. I look at the odometer or the, you. know, gas left to E says 444. I look at the clock, it also says 444. And then I think back and I go, this is. 4 hours and 44 minutes after that phone.

call with Adam. So I text. one of my guys, uh, who, you know, you. just met him, and I say, "Hey, look up what 444 means. will be at the. office center shortly. Get to the. office. He has it pulled up on his. laptop and he goes, "444. What do you. think 444 means?". 444 means your guardian angel wants to. know that they're watching over you.

I you know when I got I spent a year in. solitary confinement and uh. came out of u. that beef very bitter you know uh I try. not to appear bitter and I I'm not. bitter like. I I understand police. come after guys like me you know and. it's just all part of the game and I I. don't hold animosity. But.

when I came uh out of that solitary. confinement, I'd spent a year there. They were using my mom as a bargaining. chip. She was dying of cancer. And they. were using my mom as a bargaining chip. and uh to get me to plead out and not. fight the case and whatnot. And [sighs]. I came home, she died the next day. She. came to see me that day and then the. next day she died. And uh.

I had when my dad died, I had taken his. wedding ring and I'd taken all the. diamonds out of it and I put them in a. heart for my mom cuz I wanted her to. have the my dad's diamonds with her. And. uh. she was in the hospice and somebody. stole the uh. the diamonds off of her. I was so mad. I I I went to the. administrator and said, "I don't know.

what happened, who you got working. here." I said, "But tell them the. smartest thing for them to do is walk on. the Ventur pier and throw it off the end. of the pier." Cuz I said, "If I ever see. anybody with that on, I go, I'm not. asking any questions. I'm just reacting. I don't care who has it on." And I, like. I said, I was so mad and so angry. I I. just everything was unraveling. The club. wasn't the same. It didn't feel the same. to me. Uh we were in the midst of a a.

new era with uh you know chasing Osama. bin Laden and everything that had. happened and. I had a guy come to the house and. he was a minister and uh. he came there to tell me. that I had guardian angels watching me. and he goes I just want you to know. And.

uh he referred that to them, it was a. as some sort of good dogs that protect. you. Uh or something to do with the the. Bible. I I didn't quite understand it. And uh I. I didn't say no. You know, I I He was. sincere. I mean, I knew he believed in. what he was telling me. And I had in.

when I was in solitary confinement, they. they quit giving me my mail. They uh. started sending my mail back. You know, they start playing little games with. you. And uh like in the month of. December, I had 350 pieces returned to. the people that sent mail to me. And the only thing I had in solitary. confinement for a while was a Bible. took everything away from me. And so I. was I was reading the Bible Bible a lot.

But I came home and uh I. there's a lot of things you can't. explain in this life and they're. mysterious, you know, and uh [sighs]. like how the [ __ ] you're still sitting. here. >> Exactly. Exactly. when everybody around me is. been there's only a couple of guys left. and they're dead and I I think of. [sighs]. I met with somebody that I was very.

close with somebody I trusted with my. life. Uh met with him recently. and. I know you understand this. him and I. had a conversation about things that. happened 30 years ago that I couldn't. have that conversation with anybody else. but him because we we both understand. and I I think we're both wondering what. the hell is [ __ ] going on, man. Anyways, so I which I don't brush off.

what you say, what you say and what. you've just told me. It's uh uh. it's interesting and it it attracts my. attention, you know, but I I don't know. It's like. I have this little hard-headedness, you. know, and you know what I'm talking. about. >> I know exactly what you're talking. about. >> You know what I'm talking about. It's. kind of like, you know, and it's it.

almost goes back to that we were. speaking earlier. Uh uh. it's like [sighs]. I don't want to appear weak. I. >> That is the weakness. >> Yeah. And I, you know, it's just like. I had, like I said, what I had to come. to terms with. I had two choices, you know. I could either quit the club. or I could do I could become a hypocrite.

and do the things that I was condemning. other people for doing. And uh I chose. to walk away, you know. But anyways, [sighs]. I. >> think this is a good place to end it. >> I think so. But before we do, >> okay guys, >> I'm going to give you something to chew. on. >> All right.

That is the Jesus calling. So for. dummies like me that can't understand. the Bible, we have to resort to. something [laughter] like that. But what. that is, and you could take it, leave. it, do whatever you want with it. >> Take it. >> But that is a short little couple of. sentences every day. It's not a big lift. It's easy to. understand. See if that tugs on you.

>> I will I will take it. I appreciate it. I've enjoyed being here talking to you. I hope I made sense. I uh. [sighs]. they're uh some of the subjects are very. delicate and they're very personal and. uh you know. it was an awesome interview. >> It's been a long journey, my friend. >> But George, God has a plan for you, man. And you don't have a lot of time to. figure it out, but I hope you do.

>> Okay. Well, I appreciate that. And I'm. going to I'm going to take this uh and. uh I am going to uh put my nose in it. See what it says. >> Best of luck to you. [music]. >> Appreciate it. Thank you again. [music]. No matter where you're watching the. Shawn Ryan Show from, if you get.

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