Dr. Jordan B. Peterson - We Who Wrestle With God | SRS #108

[Music]. Dr Jordan Peterson welcome to the show. thank you sir thanks for the invitation. it's my pleasure it's an honor to have. you sitting here I went to your event in. Nashville we who wrestle with God event. and uh very. intriguing I loved it and I want to dig. into some of that today and um just our. previous conversation right before the.

show started dig into a little bit about. PTSD uh is I have an audience that's. very veteran heavy and uh and Veteran. family heavy and so there's a lot of. people that are watching this that. struggle with the aftermaths of a. lifetime in combat and uh so I think. that would be very helpful and then on. top of that uh my original plan was you. have you have all these kind of.

religious figures philosophers you. discuss the Bible a lot and um I've seen. just some really interesting content one. being I saw a lecture of you where you. talk about how the Bible references. itself. 65,000 times approximately and typer and. uh I would like to dig into some of your. personal beliefs and uh and maybe if. there's time a little bit about what's. going on in the world and uh why you.

think this is all kind of happening. right. now but first let me give you a quick. introduction for anybody that doesn't. know who you are which I don't imagine. there will be. but Dr Jordan B Peterson an author. psychologist online educator and. professor at the University of. Toronto the Jordan B Peterson podcast. frequently tops the top charts in the Ed. education category and among all. podcasts you've written three books.

which have sold more than 7 million. copies maps of meaning 12 rules for life. beyond order for 20 years you've taught. at some of the most highly regarded. courses at Harvard and University of. Toronto you've published more than 100. scientific papers nominated for five. consecutive years is one of Ontario's. best university lecturers was one of. only three professors rated as in quotes. lifechanging in the UFT underground.

student handbook of course ratings. you've released a 17p part seminar on. the biblical Book of. Exodus as the continuation. of publicly acclaimed lecture on Genesis. 7.5 million YouTube Subs 150 million. podcast downloads 8 million IG followers. you've been a dishwasher a short order. cook a bookkeeper a tow truck driver a. gas jockey bartender plywood Mill.

laborer and Railway line worker quite. the resume there uh you're a husband to. the to your wife Tammy and a father of. two. kids and currently on the we who wrestle. with God Tour in. 2024 am I missing anything I'm sure I am. but uh but uh how long have you been. married got married in. 1989 so I think it's coming up on 35. years congratulations.

congr years in August thank you but I've. known my wife for longer than that I've. known her for 52 years 52 years yeah we. met when we were eight wow we were. childhood friends that's incredible what. would you say the secret to a successful. marriages well being like insanely. attracted to your partner is. helpful you know that's helpful what. else more practically speaking.

she's honest like we swore when we. decided to get married that we tell each. other the truth and uh you know that's. a vow that. has expanding benefits as as your life. progresses it's very useful to be able. to trust your partner it makes your life. a lot. simpler a lot simpler plus you sort. things out if you tell each other the. truth it means that there's conflict. when it's necess Neary but there's no.

difference between conflict when it's. necessary and thinking they're the same. thing and so people who avoid conflict. avoid thinking and that's not a good. idea you know you have to think when. things are difficult MH well of course. there's going to be conflict you're. going to have conflict around how you. discipline your children for example CU. it's hard to figure out how to do it. you're going have conflict around your. finances CU you have to sort it out. there's lots of options and so this one. of the things people don't understand.

about thought it's like should speech be. offensive well only if you want to talk. about things that are difficult why. would you talk about things that are. difficult then well cuz life's difficult. might as well sort it out instead of. running headlong into a wall or off a. cliff so yeah so she's very useful. and a lot of people avoid conflict and I. think a lot of that it's that's.

a great point I asked this question a. lot and and that's the first time I've. heard you know live by truth and then. you got into how people avoid. conflict so my question would. be how do you approach your wife when. there is. conflict well one of the things you have. to understand about women is you have to. listen to them so women are more. sensitive to negative emotion than men. on average my wife is actually.

pretty insensitive to negative emotion. for a female but generally speaking. women are more agreeable that would be. part of the maternal dimension of their. personality and they're more sensitive. to negative emotion so they're threat. detection systems and so a woman will. bring you her concerns now. because she's sensitive to threat she. produces a fair number of false. positives.

right so she's concerned about things. that maybe aren't maybe it's not. necessary to be concerned about but. she'll be concerned about them before. you are women initiate about 75% of. divorces for example and you might say. well that means women are primarily. Troublesome within a relationship it's. like well possibly it's also possible. that they pick up what's wrong in a. relationship before men do on average. and so and because women have to care. for infants that's why they're more. sensitive to threat that's not the only. reason they're also more sexually.

vulnerable they're more physically. vulnerable makes perfect sense that. they'd be more sensitive to negative. emotion and that means that in a. relationship they serve the function of. threat alert and so a woman will be. concerned about something and she'll. bring her concerns to her husband and. he'll try to solve the problem right. away but that's not helpful because she. doesn't know what the problem is. necessarily so she has to wander around. and talk about all the things that might. be a problem and if you let her do that.

she'll dispense with most of that and. then you can kind of zero in on what the. problem might be and then if you like if. you let the discussion unfold to that. degree then you can potentially offer a. solution but you can't do that to early. you learn this in therapy too like when. people come to lay out their life to you. you might even know what they should do. but you can't tell them first of all. they won't listen second they're annoyed. if you tell them CU they need to figure.

it out it's you can't steal someone's. Destiny from them you know if you solve. all your children's problems for them. well you might think well they have no. problems it's like yeah they have a. problem they don't how to solve their. own problems that's a big problem and so. you got to back the hell off and it's. frustrating for men often to participate. in that more feminine mode of. approaching the world but if you. understand that.

a woman who's more sensitive to. trouble will detect things. early and that her discussion of those. things that upsets her will clarify. problems maybe even before they. arise then you can understand that it's. useful I mean I still have to even after. years of practicing this with Tammy I. still have. to stifle my proclivity to LEAP to the. solution you know but it's you want to.

solve the right problem man so you got. to listen and my experience as a. therapist indicated to me that in the. typical marriage people need to spend at. least 90 minutes a week talking to each. other just about their lives just about. the domestic economy about their kids. about their relationship just to keep. everything up to date and it's very. difficult to have any true intimacy if. that. isn't allowed for did you I'm sorry did.

you say 90 minutes a day no 90 minutes a. week is that. rare half marriages end in divorce so. it's rare. enough you know I mean you might find. that frustrating that you have to spend. that much time attending. to your domestic landscape let's say but. it's better to do that on a regular. basis than to do it in divorce court. while you're paying your lawyers you. know $500 an hour and having a custody.

battle for your kids for 10 years which. is not a fate that I would recommend for. anyone who wants to have a happy life so. it's also the case it's very difficult. to engage in any. romantic adventure with your wife if. there's things between you it's very. hard because that's a form of play that. romantic adventure and play is a very. fragile psychophysiological state if. there's anything between you that hasn't. been sorted out you can't play so very.

interesting I did not realize that was a. I mean 90 minutes a week sounds like. nothing hey man if it stops you if it. keeps your marriage together it's pretty. decent investment you know I would say. that's a minimum yeah but you know and. that then that would be 90 minutes a. week that's specifically devoted to well. like your marriage and family as a. business let's say you know practical.

Affairs practical Affairs may take. longer than that depends on how much. disarray there is in your life but if. you start hoping that it's going to be. less than that well you drift apart too. you have to weave your stories together. like a rope across your life you have to. know what your wife is up to and what. she's thinking and vice. versa you have to be on board with your. interpretation of the past and the. present and also your AIMS in the future. and that's constantly negotiation see.

you know in our culture we have this. idiot idea that your identity is. whatever you say it is I mean it's. unbelievably immature and narcissistic. in a marriage your identity is almost. never what you say it is you're. negotiating who you are with your wife. all the time and vice versa and with. your kids for that matter your. identity if you're a civilized human. being your identity is a negotiation you. know people think I just got to be me. it's like I don't want to be around you. if that's what you're like I don't mean.

that you should be a pushover and that. there should be nothing in the situation. for you you know that you live like a. bitter martyr only for the pleasure of. other people that's not helpful but. being mature means negotiating your. identity constantly constantly you know. that keeps you alert and alive too. and I spoke with a very wise man here. Tor nanders just a week ago and and uh.

he said something interesting you know. he said that he could see all women and. his wife and I thought how the hell do. you figure that out that's a rare thing. to understand he's a very wise person a. Danish author. and if you communicate and. you then you have all that in your. relationship you can let all that make. itself. manifest and if you do that don't box up. wife what is it Peter Peter pumpkin.

eater put his wife in a pumpkin shell. and there he kept her very well what. does that mean well that's what people. do to each other they put they put each. other in a box and they don't. let they don't let their partner or. themselves out of that box and then they. get. bored well if you communicate with your. partner and you facilitate their. development then they continually reveal. new parts of themselves and then you're. relationship stays Dynamic and alive and.

that's a good deal do you think people. realize they put their Partners in a. box you can get a to a very bad place. one idiot step at a time so do you. realize. it you realize what you're doing at each. micro step you may be completely. ignorant of the total consequence of. that you know like if you want to build. a pathological personality you do that. one lie at a time and you might say well. is someone with a pathological.

personality conscious of their pathology. and the answer is no it's vitual by that. point but they were conscious at each. decision. step interesting it's terrible it's. terrible it's a frightening thing this. is why you shouldn't lie so if you lie. you well you you automate your deception. and that's what you become then it's. it's built into you then it's not just. some attitude you have you rewire.

yourself in accordance with the lie it's. very bad idea if you. knew what that meant you wouldn't do. it really if you if you could understand. what the full consequence of that you. you'd step very carefully in your. life here's the situation you've got. China Russia Ukraine the border the. banks seem to be collapsing plus the. Chinese just negotiated with Iran Saudi. Arab Arabia and Brazil to drop the US.

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better sleep starts. now it's interesting to see. people. who who lie and I don't do you I don't. know if they actually believe their own. lies eventually yes definitely but you. believe the story you tell yourself if. you tell yourself ually it happens very.

quickly so there are experiments for. example showing so imagine I. brought students into a. classroom and uh I gave them a. questionnaire that assessed their. political attitudes say with regards to. uh. abortion and maybe they were pro-choice. and so I said okay now you write a 500w. essay on the contrary. View and then you have them come back a. week later and measure their political.

attitudes they tilt way over in the. direction of what they. wrote so when you explicate yourself you. build the structure through which you. see the world so if you lie habitually. about something that's the world you. come to inhabit you know when if you do. that with. enough heart let's say you can live in a. delusion and then then your perception. of the world doesn't match the. world that's not a that's like having a.

map of the wrong territory mhm that's a. really good way to get lost like. seriously lost and then you get lost. like that you get bitter and then you. get resentful and. then well then all the real hell starts. to break out so very bad idea it is um I. see people do it all the time on social. media they build you they they they lie. about their backgr around they lie about.

what they own they lie about past. experiences they lie about what happened. in war and they build this character M. and I see it time and time again with. with I would say more more than not the. the the the social media phenomenons. right you think social media facilitates. that I think. it maybe but where I'm going with this. is then I see them get trapped this has.

happened to friends of mine that build a. character around themselves rather than. just be themselves and they get trapped. in that character and exactly what you. were talking about they get. resentful and angry at the world and and. just having to put that false cloak on. every day when you wake up they they. they go out into the world and they are. it's a completely false person and it it. follows for. years and the resentment that's a very.

good aspect of that where I'm going with. this is one. particular part of the part of your tour. that uh that I went to we who struggle. with God you were talking about pride. and and where I'm going with this is the. E is they live this lie and they think. that they're trapped but they're only. trapped because their ego won't allow. them to come out and and tell the truth.

and they just dig themselves in deeper. and deeper in the story of. Exodus the Egyptians are freed from the. tyranny of or the Israelites are freed. from the tyranny of Egypt but that. tyranny has two elements a because the. Pharaoh is a tyrant but the Israelites. are slaves like Tyrant needs a slave so. they're both morally culpable the. tyrants culpable because he's a tyrant. and the slaves are culpable because.

they're slaves they're they're it's a. dance so Moses comes along he's speaking. on behalf of God and. he opposes the T tyrants and then he. frees the slaves frees them they cross. the Red Sea which is a bit of a. catastrophe but they end up not in the. promised land they end up in the desert. and the reason for that is that when you. abandon your tyranny you end up in the. desert that's why people stick. pridefully one of the reasons people.

stick pridefully to their erroneous. presumptions it's like once you've built. that false. character you let it go it's not like. you're you're it's all good then it's. like no you're lost and and the. Israelites they're lost for three. generations right so you may be so lost. that you just can't get it back together. in your lifetime especially if you stick. even more bitterly let's say to your. pride you know cuz it's a real mystery. imagine this there's a pathway to.

Enlightenment just imagine that might be. the case of course sages have said that. forever and you might say well why the. hell wouldn't people just walk it then. if there's a pathway to Enlightenment. that seems like a good deal it's like. well there's a lot of desert to wander. through when you let go of your. stupidity and so people don't they. double down which is what the Pharaoh. does in The Exodus story right and and. he doubles down 10 times until he. destroys the future and his own people.

that's like that happens all the time. people do that all the time in their. lives states do it Nations do. it I think it's sad I have friends that. do this and I think it's it's I'm sad. for them that they that they put on that. false cloak every day and and. and and it carries on for years and. years and years and I see them I see how. exhausted they are I mean and that is. you know.

with it's very difficult to maintain a. structure built on lies it's you lose. track of them all well that's for sure. no kidding no kidding this is why in a. marriage it's just so much better just. to say what you think and you know I. mean without being telling the truth is. complicated you you can't use the truth. as a weapon like tell if you're telling. the truth it's a multi-dimensional. problem like if I'm talking to my wife I. have to talk to her in a way I can't use. the truth as a cudel that's a lie like.

then the truth isn't it's not the truth. it's truth as weapon really what I'm. doing is beating her with the truth I'm. looking for a club not the truth could. you give me an example of that well. maybe you're you're trying to sort. something out even about how things are. working on the domestic front who who. does what job and maybe she's doing. something that isn't up to scratch let's. say with regard to the house well you. could try to address that as a problem.

to be solved or you could use it as an. opportunity to punish and trumpet your. moral superiority and you could you. could say well I'm just telling the. truth it's like yeah well you're not. doing a very good job of it you know. because the truth would be well I need. to tell you what I think but I have to. be around you tomorrow and next week so. I should try to tell you what I think in. a way that isn't going to turn you. against me you know. I guess there's something in that that's.

something like minimal necessary force. with regard to the. truth the truth has to serve the harmony. of the relationship you know as well as. describing whatever the problem is that. has to be solved so I would say the same. with children if you're disciplining. them you want to do that in the spirit. of love and what does that mean well the. reason you're disciplining them isn't to. Lord it over them or to indicate your. moral superiority but to put a. wall up to protect them let's say or to.

specify a pathway forward that they can. walk down that would be productive and. if you're not doing that well then. you're not serving the truth in the. highest sense and so it's it's it's a. that's why there's a religious. insistence that truth has to serve love. that the two things are united and love. means it means care I suppose people. often think that means the provision of.

security and safety but it love means. encouragement. too right that's in some ways that's the. distinction between the female role and. male role in a family you know or. feminine and masculine the feminine. tends to provide security and safety and. the masculine tends to encourage and. challenge both those are aspects of love. and that's also the case within a. relationship I mean you want to provide. your wife and her to you a certain. degree of security but you want that.

allied with an optimal challenge because. that facilitates development and. that's well that's one of the things. that L lends life interest and. Adventure. so for somebody that is living a lie how. would. you how would you advise them to get. back to Baseline. well I have a program online that's.

actually designed to to deal with that. problem. um we put together my colleagues and I. Daniel Higgins and Robert Peele Robert. Peele was my graduate supervisor at. Miguel and Daniel was a student of mine. at Harvard and I've worked with these. two for about 40 years. now we put together a series of writing. exercises at a site called. selfauthoring.com and. the past authoring program helps you.

write an autobiography right break your. life into seven. epochs identify the events of emotional. significance during those times positive. and. negative tell the story of your. life write it down as honestly as you. possibly can that's a good way of. figuring out where you are the next. program in that series helps you. identify your faults and your virtues in. the present. so everybody has a temperament and your.

temperament is going to provide you with. opportunities like if you're extraverted. for. example you're going to be someone you. be tilted in a sales Direction you know. so that's a benefit that comes along. with that temperament extroverts can be. narcissists as well and so that would be. the sin that would be associated with. that temperament and wherever you are in. the temperamental landscape you're going. to have some advantages conferred On You. by those temperaments and some.

disadvantages and it's useful to sort. those out so it's easy for Creative. people for example to be scattered it's. easy for people who are high in. intelligence to be prideful right so the. the probably the biggest individual. difference between people is. intelligence and you might think in some. ways that that's unfair some people are. born with an IQ of 130 and some with an. IQ of say 70 and those are those are. very different people people the person. with an IQ of 70 is going to struggle to.

become literate regardless of the amount. of time they put into it right but. the Temptation that goes along with. intelligence is to be prideful right to. assume. that you should be worshiped because of. your intelligence or things should go. your way just because you're smart that. the world should bow down at your feet. that the fact that you win arguments. means that you're right. well that's anyways the present.

authoring program helps people identify. their faults and virtues and then. there's a future authoring program. that's the third step you can do any of. them or all of them that helps you lay. out a pathway to the Future and it's. very structured all those are very. structured because it's hard to write an. autobiography it's hard to write a plan. for the future the future plan we've. done a lot of research on um. it if a if a young man does the future.

authoring program when he goes to. college he's 50% less likely to drop out. 50% is a lot M and grade point average. goes up about. 35% the future authoring program helps. people develop a vision for their life. and you actually don't have any hope or. any freedom from anxiety without a. vision for your future like the a vision. for your future is the structure that. provides you with hope and that. regulates your negative emotion because.

it specifies a goal once a goal is. specified you feel positive emotion in. relationship to the goal and your. anxiety is constrained because you you. have a direction you're anxious when you. have way too many directions that's why. you get anxious if your car breaks down. it's like what do I do now too many. Pathways you want the pathways through. life collapsed to a single implementable. dimension one that goes uphill and then. when you walk uphill so to speak each.

step that you see yourself making is in. indexed by positive emotion hope. enthusiasm meaning so you need a vision. this isn't optional people are very bad. at this we're very bad in our culture at. helping people develop a vision we don't. actually do it with student with kids in. school it's it's a blind spot that's so. large that it's kind of Miracle so the. way this program works is that so here's. the here's the game okay so you're going.

to look 5 years out in your. life and you're going to treat yourself. for the purpose of this exercise like. somebody that you care for that's a hard. thing for people to do like most people. are reverse narcissists most people are. harder on themselves than they are on. other people that isn't always the case. there are narcissistic people but most. people are harder on themselves than. they are on other people and they don't. really believe that it would be just or. good if they were. successful and not miserable you know CU.

they know their sins they know the ways. they've wandered off the path they carry. a lot of guilt with them and they don't. really believe they that it that they. deserve anything good that's that's a. depressive temperament when it really. gets out of control so you have to put. yourself in a position where you treat. yourself like someone you care for okay. so get in that frame of mind all right. now here's the deal you can have what. you want need within the bounds of. Reason in 5 years but you have to.

specify it so if you could have what you. wanted and. needed that would satisfy you what would. that be well that's a complicated. question people have a hard time. answering that right but we break it. down for them too it's like well if you. had the family you wanted your siblings. your parents your wife your kids what. would that look like in some detail. dream a bit like if you could have what. you wanted what would it look like with.

your friends same thing you have the. friends you want people are happy when. good things happen to you and. commiserate with you when bad things. happen to you and that you can walk side. by side with and that are on your side. people don't even understand that they. can choose their friends you know that. they have a moral obligation to do so. what would your career look like how. would you educate yourself how would you. take care of yourself mentally and. physically what would you do with your. time outside of work that would be. productive and meaningful how would you. serve the community if you could have.

what you wanted well this exercise helps. people specify all that and it's. ridiculously useful you need to orient. yourself in the world you need a vision. it's like the development of a map it's. a map of the future and without that. you're lost and people are lost and they. blow in the wind and then their lives. are meaningless and they feel like. they're powerless and it's because they. haven't developed a vision the people. perish without a vision it's a very old. idea it's definitely.

true there's so many directions I want. to go just off that piece of. conversation that we just had one. being I want to know why so many why you. think so many people are lost but before. I lose this one you'd talked about when. your car breaks down you talked about. when there's too many directions to go. that's when people feel anxiety yeah. it's entropy do you. think that that is part of what's look. the country seems to be in shambles it's. lost right now I think a lot it seems.

like half of the people want to be told. exactly what to do go back to the. problem so is that in is that part of. what is happening right now to this. country I mean if you get you get the. the slave tyranny the slave Tyrant. Dynamic always works sure people. want they want whatever they want on the. sexual front on the Hedonism front right. now now with no. responsibility and tyrants make that.

offer the state will take care of you. there's no reason for you to be mature. there's no reason for you to forego. gratification you can be taken care of. from Cradle to grave fair enough you. know but the price you pay for that is. that you're a slave and inevitably and. it's worse the the religious Dynamic so. imagine the the Tyrant makes an offer to. the slave and the offer is an offer of. unbridled he ISM essentially something. like that the Tyrant always kills the.

the source of pleasure in the final. analysis mhm so like you'll be. offered what. will attract the immature part of you. but don't be thinking you're going to. keep it cuz that isn't how things work. and why take responsibility for your. life all the responsibilities you do not. shoulder will be taken up by tyrants and. used against you that's the iron law of. human existence and.

so why you mature well because if you. turn that responsibility over to someone. else they'll become a tyrant and you'll. be a slave and that won't work out very. well for you cuz tyrants become. contemptuous of their slaves and. unsurprisingly stellin was completely. contemptuous of the Russian people he. thought they all lied and coud why. because they all lied in coud wasn't. what he was wrong I mean he produced the. situation in a dance with his people.

but Hitler thought the same thing about. the Germans by the end of World War II. he thought contemptible people they. deserve what's coming to them he didn't. think he was wrong as the Tyrant there's. always a dance between the slave and the. Tyrant and the way you get out of. slavery is by taking responsibility for. your own. destiny and you do that by developing a. vision it's not optional none of this is. optional and you might say well why why.

bother with maturity even if I could. just have what I wanted first of. all you aren't built so that you would. be satisfied with just having what you. want any more than a 2-year-old is ever. satisfied if you give the 2-year-old. everything he wants all you get is an. angry 2-year-old if you do that because. you don't get what you want by always. getting what you want when you want it. that isn't how life works you get what. you want by molding yourself into.

something mature and communal and. capable of sacrifice like we're built. for a way higher. order Journey way higher order Adventure. than just infantile hedonistic. gratification that's a dismal bloody. vision of the world this is the. celebration of Pride the hedonistic. celebration of Pride you know we have. pride month well what's what are we. celebrating first of all how about we. don't celebrate. Pride Pride's a cardinal sin and you.

might say well they don't mean Pride. they. mean you know it's a a group of. oppressed people and now they're just. finding their identity and they're. getting some security in that identity. and so what they mean by pride is. Security in that ident it's. like the word pride that's the word that. was chosen so I don't care what the. lies around that are and it's pride and.

relationship as far as I can tell to. nothing but hedonistic. self-gratification it's like you're. going to your identity is going to be. your sexual desire that's your identity. your sexual desire so that's sexual. desire is at the center of. Hedonism so that means you've reduced. your identity to the most immature and. hedonistic part of you the part that. would exploit someone else for your own. gratification for example the part that.

would exploit you for your own. gratification and now that's your. identity and now that's what we. celebrate yeah no that's a very bad idea. that's the worship of the golden. calf and that's what in The Exodus story. for example when Moses disappears so. he's the prophet of God when when the. prophet of God. disappears the Israelites are left in. the hands of Aaron and Aaron's a. political leader and in in no time. flat the political leader offers the.

slavish Israelites the worship of the. golden calf they're all drunk and. dancing naked around the fire in a way. that makes them contemptible to their. enemies that's what it says in the. biblical text you don't have to be much. of a genius to understand that you know. Rachel LaVine is not exactly striking. heart in the Striking fear in the heart. of the. Iranians are so damn. stupid I'm with you on. that you'd also mentioned how lost.

people are nowadays and and uh I see it. everywhere I go why do you think why do. you think so many people are lost and. and and why are. they. missing the direction that they need to. well I I think I know why because I've. watched crowds of thousands of people. hundreds of times respond to. certain things I've said investigating.

that. problem for since. 1960 we've insisted that the purpose of. your life is a kind of hedonistic. happiness that you have rights which. includes the rights to that hedonistic. happiness the capitalist marketers. certainly capitalize on that just as. much as the you know governmental. tyrants rights rights rights what I want. right now that that idea of infantile.

consumption. fundamentally well you have rights for a. particular reason and the reason you. have rights is so that you. can shoulder your responsibilities and. you might say well I don't want to. shoulder my responsibilities but that's. where all the meaning in your life is. and so when I tell people this they the. audiences always go dead silent it's. like the adventure in your life will be. found in responsibility no one ever. hears that we haven't told young people. that for like 60 60 years you pick up.

the cross and shoulder it uphill because. that's where all the meaning in your. life will be derived from it's it's in. the difficulty it's in the. responsibility it's not in the. hedonistic self-gratification. that as I said won't even satisfy a. 2-year-old not in the final analysis all. you do is if people just get what they. want the time.

immediately it's not like that en Nobles. their character like obviously not your. character is made Noble by Sacrifice by. the delay of gratification that's all. associated with maturity and the. community itself is a. sacrificial the community itself. requires sacrifice on the part of the. individual obviously like to be in a. community is to sacrifice your. individuality to the community it's the. definition of community you know you.

don't get everything you want the second. you want it in your marriage you have to. take the other people into account well. that's a sacrifice of immediate. gratification now you might say well. it's a good long-term deal it's like. yeah that's kind of the point it's a. good long-term deal so you sacrifice the. idiot present for a good long-term deal. a good communal long-term deal and if. you do that properly then you have a. stellar reputation. right because you're someone who can be. counted on relied upon and then that.

also is something that provides your. life with meaning we're lost because we. have no direction we don't even believe. that there is such a thing as Direction. and then you might say well what's. what's the proper direction the. direction of maximal voluntary. self-sacrifice that's the proper. direction every military person knows. that it's the core of the military. Enterprise and there's obviously Venture. in that you know there can be. catastrophe in it as well.

but I wanted to also elaborate on what. you were saying at the event on pride. and how Pride can. trigger all of the negative. emotions depression anxiety you were you. went down list and I could you please. explain how that works and and cuz when. you were talking about it up there I had. thought. about a lot of the times that I'd felt.

anger or regret or resentment and a lot. of that was when I refused to it was my. ego it was my ego question okay so I. should return to one thing we discussed. so I discussed that self-authoring. program you'd asked me about lies and. how people get out of it well one way. you get out of your Web of Lies is to. replace it with a truthful story and. that has to cover your whole life right.

past present and future and so you. retool your life if you want to escape. from your Web of Lies and you try to do. that by laying out what happened as. clearly as you possibly can right with. no you lay out the unvarnished truth and. there's going to be real pain in. that this is a treatment for po. post-traumatic stress disorder for. example so if you if the terrible thing. that happened is in the past because you.

don't want to do this if it's too soon. you know you have these psychologists. who rush in to schools during a shooting. and have the kids talk about it all that. does is make it worse like it's a. traumatic event if you dwell on it while. it's happening it makes it worse now if. it's something that's 5 years distant. and still a hot memory it's it's. something that has to be confronted then. you go and write it down in painful.

detail and try to. assess exactly what happened and why you. acted the way you acted and that can be. Curative but that's. painful it's painful in the short term. and the the research on these sorts of. programs shows that if you have people. write about a traumatic experience let's. say that it worsens their mood in the. short. term it's not surprising that's why they. want to move avoid thinking about it to. begin with but the long-term. consequences are positive so if you've.

encountered something traumatic it's. like you've there's an abyss in your. life and You' fallen into it and the. reason you're still upset about that is. because you don't know why you fell into. it and so your brain your mind your soul. is warning you it's like you fell into a. pit buddy and you don't know why and so. you could fall into it again and so I'm. not going to let you forget it you have. to figure out why you fell into that pit. and if you've done something. particularly terrible then that's a very.

deep pit and that's very very hard on. people it's very common for soldiers for. example to develop post-traumatic stress. disorder when they watch themselves do. something they can't believe they could. do and it flips their understanding of. themselves upside down they don't know. who they are and they also don't know. who other people are and they don't know. what the world's like it's not what they. thought it was that's for sure and. there's a lot more to them on the dark. side let's say than they could have ever. imagined it's like that's definitely the. case well how do you come to terms with.

that you come to terms with that. fundamentally the deeper the trauma the. more a. religious approach is necessary because. if you're traumatized you're in the. landscape of Good and. Evil right you're traumatized by an. encounter with evil It's Not Mere. tragedy it's not just that something bad. happened to you bad things happen to. people all the time without them being. traumatized usually if someone's. traumatized is they've been bit by. malevolence might be their own might be.

someone else's they've been bit by. malevolence they don't know what to do. with that they don't know what to do. with the reality of. evil one of the things you do with the. reality of evil is start to understand. the mythological landscape and that is. the landscape of Good and Evil and then. you have to start to understand what. what good means and what the pathway. back there is you know part of the. religious Enterprise the Christian. Enterprise deals with this very. forthrightly it's like people can wander. very badly off the path and end up in. places they can't tolerate being how do.

you get back. confess. repent. atone that's exactly right what's the. confession well what do you. do everything what do you do okay repent. well could you set yourself up so you. wouldn't do that again how would you. have to change yourself the way you look. at the world so that you don't fall into. that pit again atone what do you have to. do to make it good to make it. right and if you don't do that then well.

then you're stuck in. hell do you think there's always a way. to make it. right you could pray that that was the. case they promise like the the the. Christian promise is that the answer to. that is yes but. the depth of the confession and the. difficulty of the repentance and. atonement is proportional to the. magnitude of the.

sin so that's rough but it makes sense. right I mean if you did something. terrible it's not going to be easy to. fix it but that doesn't mean. you the the in the Christian insistence. is that there's always a pathway. back I have a friend that's coming on. and he's going to be here towards the. end of this year and uh he was a. seal and generally with with the with. the Special Operations crowd I do a I do.

if I have a guest on from that Community. it's a life story and there's. there's so much truth that comes out of. those interviews and and it's almost. turned. into like a therapy session yeah that's. the. confession I have somebody coming on. who had. to maybe it didn't even have to I didn't. I I want I told him I didn't want to. have the entire conversation on the. phone and that if he wanted to have it.

here then we could have it here he says. he does but he killed a. child. and it's stuck with him for years it's. it's it's haunted. him how do. you how do you make that right how do. you make something like that right. I would say in a situation like that the.

devil's in the details right so if I was. working with someone like that the first. thing I would find out is well what. happened mhm. because I don't you need to know the. details you know because for example in. the story that you laid out I don't know. if that was how much of that outcome. could be attributed to the. situation well let's let's just say it. was a a Justified kill but it yet it.

still haunts him I think it probably. haunts a lot of the team members that. were a part of that. operation and but whether it was. justified or not he still struggling. with it yeah he doesn't. feel I I don't want to speak for the man. but I it obviously bothers him because. it got brought up right away and and and. he wants to he wants to bring that up. here and.

so. well what would I investigate. then so imagine he's torturing himself. and imagine he's doing that in a way. that is. counterproductive and that's also. counterproductive in relationship to his. family is that helping or making it. worse right I mean so that's something. to think about about it's this isn't I. mean I'm speaking hypothetically because. obviously I don't know this person I.

don't know what their situation is but. almost everyone has other people. depending on them you know and if. you overburden yourself with guilt and. take yourself out you're going to hurt. people around you so you have a moral. obligation to not do that if you can. avoid it so that's one of the things I. would investigate to begin with I would. find out well exactly what happened what. were the situational requirements. conscientious people tend to. overestimate their culpability in any.

given situation and downplay the. situational factors that's called the. fundamental attribution error and it's. particularly true for conscientious. people so I do very careful analysis of. the situation and find out. well was it likely that anyone would. have done that in that situation okay. well then then well then you there's. another problem that comes along with. that which is well what does it mean. about life that you can be in a. situation where you to do something. terrible to proceed that's a religious. question to some degree and and there.

are ways of addressing that in terms of. atonement likely what I would have him. do is I would ask him to begin with at. least is like well imagine that you were. counseling one of your friends who has. this problem and you wanted to help him. calculate a pathway forward that would. enable him. to get on with his life What would you. require from. him what sacrifice would you require for.

him you know cuz people will often. burden themselves with an impossible. moral task and it's not helpful you're. not you're. not it's not right to take yourself out. of the. game right. so I can't be much more specific than. that because the devil's always in the. details it has to be. personalized one of the things that I've. done with people who've had. post-traumatic stress. disorders I've familiarized themselves.

with the literature of. horror that's very useful so there's a. book called Ordinary man that details. how a battalion of German police. officers were turned into the murderers. of naked pregnant women in Poland one. step at a time there's a book called the. rape of Nan King which is about what the. Japanese did in China at at the runup to. the second world war the woman who wrote. that Iris Chang she committed suicide.

it's a rough book human beings have a. very dark side and now and then that. what happens to someone who's. traumatized is they run into that dark. side well how would that be. conceptualized religiously well if you. meet Satan at the crossroads there's no. necessity that you're going to recover. from that like these are realities in. fact they're the deepest realities. that's why people break apart part in a. situation like that they come across. something that's so dark that they just.

can't function. well the first thing to become aware of. is that's actually how the world is. constituted it's constituted as a. landscape of Good and Evil we're very. bad at teaching people that we we. portray it in our movies always in. action adventure stories always a. landscape of Good and Evil a. mythological Quest the Lord of the Rings. The Hobbit the Marvel Universe you know. those are all Landscapes of Good and. Evil what we don't understand is that is. the landscape now partly we don't.

understand it because we're in pumpkin. shells right it's like you know normal. middle class. existence there's not much good in it in. the extreme sense there's not much evil. in it in the extreme sense it's all. middle of the road but that's not. life and if you're in that pumpkin shell. and you're naive and then you encounter. life it's like well good luck to you. because you are completely without.

resources in in relationship to how to. deal with. that people have an immense capacity for. Darkness it's bottomless it's bottomless. no matter how bad you think someone can. act there's something someone did that. was worse than that and no one wants to. go there um and and people even when. they conceptualize themselves when. people read the history of Nazi Germany. they always think they're Shindler they. always think that they're the person who. would have saved an Frank in the.

Netherlands they never read history as a. perpetrator that wouldn't I wouldn't. have done that it's like did you watch. people during the. pandemic in. Canada 30% of my neighbors were thrilled. that they had the opportunity to inform. on their on the people around them. thrilled they would have worn those. godamn masks for the rest of their life. if the payoff would have being they. could feel moral morally Superior and. inform and so you know people have a.

very dark side and see once you start to. understand that it also lifts the moral. burden off you to some degree it's like. Well you aren't who you think you are. you're way worse and way better and. that's your friend for example he. discovered that he discovered he was way. worse it's like yeah that's that's the. world that's reality okay now you know. that now you know that you're no longer. naive you might say that what do you do.

about that well that's the next question. the antidote to evil is good and good is. is good is deeper than evil I don't know. how good your friend would have to be in. order to free himself from his. entanglement you know maybe he has to. become a saint so to speak could. be there's a lot of atonement there. I think the the fact.

that I appreciate the fact on people who. who think like that because so many. people just justify. their their wrongdoings to in their head. they justify why they did it and they. they they look for reasons to convince. themselves on on why they're why they're. sinning why do you think people why is. is it so hard for people to just admit.

wrong instead of justifying well so that. that's related to that question you had. about. Pride we like to be. right if I'm right and you're wrong I. don't have to change and so that's. pretty convenient for me because change. there's a desert part of change like if. I have to change I have to fall apart. and then I have to put myself back. together it's very annoying to fall. apart you know if you're arguing with. your wife and it turns out you're. wrong then you have to go figure out why.

you're wrong God only knows why you're. wrong like maybe it's a deep wrong maybe. it's a pattern and you have to take. maybe 10% of you has to go something. like that and that's a kind of death. it's really hard and so people will. insist that they're right so they don't. have to change because change involves. sacrifice change involves death when you. learn something new the stupid part of. you has to go and it has to die and. that's actually painful you might to put.

a lot of work into that stupid part of. yourself you know and then you have to. let it go and then it's not like you're. like I said it's not like you're better. as soon as you let it go it's no you're. just lost on that front then you have to. figure out what to do. instead in in the religious orientation. what you try to do is you try to replace. insisting that you're right with trying. to find out how to be right and that's. the opposite of Pride that's humility. it's like okay there's some pathway.

forward here that I. could Journey down if I could only. specify what it was my wife has started. praying the rosary and she does that. every morning for about an hour it takes. her about an hour to orient herself. properly because she's trying. to be grateful practice it practice it. right to orient herself upward to. commit to recommit to the. truth that's the attempt to find the.

right pathway rather than to insist that. the one you're on is already right it's. a completely different orientation in. the Christian landscape that's something. like Christ within me and not me not my. will what does that mean well it means. you replace what you want with the. attempt to do what's right well what's. right well. truth so in our conversation know I. weigh my words I'm trying to find the.

words that are. solid that's the pathway forward each. word is a stone on the water that. specifies the pathway through chaos even. you know if you're in a tight. situation you should be very careful. with what you say especially if you're. around dangerous people say and so you. weigh your words and that's a attempt to. find the pathway forward instead of to. insist that you're right you know in.

your current configuration it's a form. of Faith too because you might say well. do you want to put Faith in who you are. do you want to put Faith in who you. could. become and if and it's way better to put. Faith in who you could become that's a. much better deal then you can give up. who you. are youve put your faith in the right. place you don't have that tyrannical. insistence that you're right all the. time. when I'm dealing with my wife like we're. trying to sort something out what's my.

aim I want to sort this out so we don't. have to fight about it anymore I want to. put it right and if I have to give up. something stupid that I'm doing to put. this right that's okay because what I'm. aiming at. is peace and tranquility and romantic. adventure and that's the pathway that I. want to take forward and if I have to. give up something idiotic about myself. to make that happen I'd like to find out. what it is so I can get rid of it as. fast as possible that's a sacrificial.

offering right there's an insistence in. the biblical Corpus. that sacrifice is the pathway forward. there's no difference between that and. maturation there's no difference between. that and work those are sacrificial. offerings right they're delay of. gratification so you you sacrifice what. you want that's what you do when you. work you delay gratification you. sacrifice what you could be Happ right. now for the future it's a sacrifice.

that's that's. the. communal that's the communal orientation. of human beings that sacrificial pathway. and if you're smart you look for what. you can sacrifice why to replace it with. something better always to and that's. your upward aim and that can be the. antithesis of that sort of Pride you're. Pride do you think that's a good thing. sacrificing for the future I I.

personally struggle with this because. there's the live in the. now. which when I can do it I feel great and. then there's the sacrifice for the. future which we all do through work the. The Sermon on the Mount is about. that so the the central idea in The. Sermon on the Mount is that you should. aim. up and then you should concentrate on. the present then you get to have your. cake and eat it too but the first thing. is that you aim up so you want to orient.

yourself so that everything you do is in. keeping with an upward aim then you can. concentrate on the. present and. that's that's that's that's the best. possible pathway forward so what does it. mean to aim up that's you might ask that. well in the final analysis is it means. to align yourself with the spirit of God. but if you want to bring down to earth. it's like.

well there's undoubtedly some things. you're doing that you know aren't. optimal and you could aim at improving. those well that's an upward aim and you. could imagine that the sum total of all. those incremental improvements is the. upward aim you know and that as you make. an improvement you get better at. seeing the. next step. upward the the ultimate up name. is what would you say the Heavenly City.

on the hill it's something like that. it's its existence that would be optimal. for you and optimal for everyone else. but that's a that's a receding goal. right that's a kind of impossible heaven. but it's the thing that sort. of stands behind all your proximal aims. want to aim upward and then you can. concentrate on the present you know so. what I'm trying to do in this discussion. and I'm sure you are is what what are. you trying to do in this discussion. you're trying to have an honest. discussion MH okay why.

why I want to learn from you why I want. to improve my life okay and you're. bringing other people Along on that trip. yes why is it useful to bring other. people. along because it improves their life. okay and and is there something. meaningful in that abolutely okay so. that's a mystery I talked to Joo willing. Joo wanted to be a soldier from the time. he was like three M and he's a complete. bloody monster you know he's 4T thick.

and. rampaging and he said he could have. easily been a criminal he's a. disagreeable militaristic guy he went. off to train and he found that it was he. really liked mentoring young men that. was way better than being a criminal he. found a better pathway you know in these. discussions that you're having with the. people you bring on here like you said. you're trying to learn so you're trying. to shed your stupidity and move uphill.

but at the same time you're doing that. you're engaged in a communal Endeavor. right because you're helping other. people do that too and so then you've. got this great alignment between what's. good for you and what's also good for. everyone else that's a good. deal God comes to Abraham as the voice. of. Adventure so Abraham is Rich and he's 70. years old when the story starts he spent. his whole life in his father's tent. just living a hedonistic and secure life.

and there's no reason for him to do. anything else CU his parents are rich. but God comes along and says get the. hell out of your zone of security leave. your parents leave your tent leave your. community go out into the world and. Abraham agrees he commits to it and he. makes the sacrifices along the way that. are necessary in expanding. uh well each. sacrifice that marks his pathway forward.

requires a Greater Giving Up it. culminates in the offering of his son. God tells him to sacrifice his son to. God and so that's the culmination of the. sacrificial process but God makes. Abraham a deal it's such a cool deal. this is such a wonderful thing to. understand so imagine there's an. instinct in your child that causes that. child to push himself Beyond his limits. and to develop. to become mature to become independent. imagine that you Foster that as a father.

right so you you'll you'll challenge. your child because you want him to be. able to Bear the weight of existence by. himself but more than bear it to Bear it. in an adventuresome. manner God comes to Abraham as this the. call of the spirit of Adventure and he. makes it Abraham a deal he said if you. abide by the spirit of Adventure hold. wholeheartedly and you make the. sacrifices that are necessary no matter. what they are you'll be a blessing to.

yourself your name will become renowned. so you you'll have a. reputation you'll establish something. permanent that's good and you'll do it. in a way that's good for everyone else. and that that's all aligned with that. Spirit of Adventure now that's a good. deal if that's I think it's true like if. it's not true it would mean that what. calls us to develop is not in alignment. with communal Life Society or with.

what's good for other people it could. easily be the case that if you treated. yourself properly in in the highest. sense that that would align perfectly. with the deepest needs of other. people and that's that Divine Harmony. that is offer on offer on the relig side. of things that's associated with what's. good and it seems to.

me it's it seems to me true you know I. would say for your friend who committed. this terrible sin is that his pathway. forward is to swear to do what's. good and I don't know how deeply he has. to swear that it it would be. commensurate with his error know and. that could be of great benefit to him to. some degree because it's a very rare. person who becomes good without. you know running into Satan at the. crossroads you're not serious enough.

before then right you don't take. yourself seriously enough think well. what does it matter what does it matter. what I do I'm just one dust Speck among. 8 billion you know it's like no if you. start to see yourself. as what would you say the author of all. evil that's a good one you might just. start taking yourself with a certain. degree of seriousness and then you can. do a lot of. good let's go back to post-traumatic.

stress I've done three and a half years. of therapy twice a week I've done. psychedelics uh treatments therapies. I've done I've explored all kinds of. different ways to overcome postraumatic. stress uh TBI but let's just concentrate. on postm stress it always seems to go. back back to Childhood everybody I've. talked to their therapist starts them at.

childhood I started at. childhood then when I got into when I. started research in the Psychedelic. therapy and I started interviewing. people about it a lot of. the visual experiences that they. relive is not. wartime a lot lot of it is I would say. more than not our childhood memories why.

the psychoanalyst would have called that. a complex well imagine that it it's the. same as a portal into hell I. suppose that's another way of thinking. about. it all things you haven't dealt with are. the same. thing and why. well all things you haven't dealt with. are things you don't understand. well how can you classify things that. you don't understand because you don't. understand them well you classify them.

with negative emotion that's the class. the class of all things that produce. negative emotion okay what's at the core. of that the deepest hell you've managed. to fall into what's associated with that. everything you haven't dealt with in. your. life. right. so that if you encountered something. particularly traumatic it would. aggregate everything that was partially. traumatic around it it's something like.

that cuz it's the same thing it's all. those places in your life you did not. Traverse. properly right and those all have to be. mapped because otherwise they're. pitfalls and that's how your psyche. responds to them there are dragons there. look. out do you have to sort that all out you. do do if you don't want to carry it with. you you have to sort everything out that. you don't want to carry with you that's.

partly why the Catholics insist on. confession it's like what' you do wrong. this. week well I don't want to think about. that it's like fair enough but then you. carry. it history economics the great works of. literature the meaning of the US. Constitution did you study these things. in school probably not or even if you. did maybe it's time for refres pressure. time and Technology have changed a lot. and that's why it's important to learn.

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this is the same thing in in marriage. this is why you talk for 90 minutes it's. like to to keep things from. aggregating. so this the the small things that you. avoid collect in your closet and in the. closet they turn into a monster and then. one day when you're weak they come. leaping out of the closet and devour you. that's an ancient. story so. so it may so when when you were with the.

Psychedelic experiences you you said. that there was a relationship between. childhood experiences and the traumatic. experiences that you were describing was. that something that you experienced in a. in a rush like how did those connections. make themselves. manifest with me uh there was not really. any connection it was more chronological. order and and I don't understand what. the connection is and that's why I'm. asking you is.

because it it just it's a it's a trend. that I see when I when I talk to gents. about this type of stuff it's always it. always seems to go back to Childhood. yeah that's what Freud observed well. it's. because everything that you don't. everything you've encountered in your. life that you don't understand is. traumatic to some. degree merely because you don't.

understand it it's it's. unmapped you haven't coped with it. properly you don't know how to deal with. it and. so all of those things are tagged pretty. much forever with anxiety with entropy. like they are entropy itself they're. confusion itself and you you have to. make the world out of. that so the Great hero creators of the. cosmos in the mythological world are. always those who face the dragon of.

chaos who cut it into pieces and make. the world out of the pieces that's the. oldest story we know it's the dragon. fight in its most fundamental. sense a dragon is a monster that's. composed of monstrous. parts and monstrous parts are parts that. are terrifying but that also don't like. a monster is something that's an. aggregate of the in a monster is an. aggregate of the incomprehensible that's. a good way of thinking about it and so.

everything that's happened to you that's. incomprehensible is going to be part of. that. monster you have to deal with all of it. well you either deal with it or you. don't and if you don't deal with it you. carry it with you that's that's how it. goes that's how it. works it could easily be too that you. know people people who were primed let's. say for post-traumatic stress disorder. had a sequence of traumatic occurrences.

in their past that have. already cracked them in some. ways I want to switch gears now I want. to get. into the lecture that you gave about how. the. Bible references itself six. approximately 65,000 times and you had a.

great visual which it's a great visual. eh it's it's it was it was very. captivating and could you elaborate on. that a little. bit well the first thing we could say is. that the Bible is the world's first. hyperlink. text. because many of the verses refer to many. other verses. and that means it's a very complicated. text because you can find your way. through it many many ways like the more.

a text is cross reference the more. pathways through it there are and you. can imagine that that explodes. exponentially so you might say well what. does a Bible verse mean and the answer. is well it means whatever it means in. reference to all of its cross references. and then each of those cross references. has cross references so it's a web it's. a web of meaning a very complex web of. meaning. and so that's what makes it deep. technically.

speaking okay so so what does that. mean this is a good way of understanding. a symbol see if I can explain this. properly imagine that you have a. belief of any sort um then imagine that. there are other beliefs that are. statistically likely to co-occur without. belief right so if you believe one thing. here's four other things you're likely. to believe and then each of those four. has four things four beliefs that are.

likely to occur with them that's what. you'd say if someone was conservative. right if you know one of their beliefs. You can predict many other beliefs or if. they're. liberal every. idea no idea exists independently it. exists in a web of ideas that web is. something like the statistical. probability that another idea will. co-occur with that idea that's what the. large language models map they map that. mathematically so here's a way of.

thinking about it imagine a word like. uh um Hilt like the hilt of a sword h l. t. well how do you know that's a word well. you know the meaning of the word but you. also know it's a word. because a word is identifiable because. of the statistical regularities between. the letters you know perfectly well that. Zed qn N X is not a. word why well because there's no word. that has that statistical relationship.

there's no word that's for consonants. not one you have to have a vowel in your. word so one of the ways that helps you. identify a word is your understanding of. the statistical regularity between the. letters so um the word c i l t that's. not a word but it's quite a lot like a. word it's a lot more like a word than z. q. andx so. a word has. predictable.

statistical relationships between its. letters words exist in relationship to. each. other patterns of words exist in. relationship to other patterns of words. paragraphs exist in relationship to. paragraphs all that's a. mathematical domain of statistical. regularity. that's what a symbol. is a symbol is the complex of ideas that.

are associated with a particular. idea and so when you're exploring the. symbolic landscape say of the biblical. stories. you're exploring the statistical. relationship between all between all the. ideas well that's a reality that. statistical. relationship it's a. reality it's like does a witch live in a. swamp or a. high-rise a witch lives in a swamp. you know that well why well because in. in portrayals of witches from time.

immemorial witches are likely to be in. swamps so when you think which that's. one of the things you sort of think. along with it and everything we think is. like that and. the part of what the biblical Corpus is. is a walkth. through how would you say it it's a walk. through. the patterns of character and order that.

have been reliably observed to exist to. coexist over thousands of years that's a. good way of thinking about it so here's. an example this is very complicated but. here's an. example so I talked about God for God. for Abraham was the spirit of Adventure. The Call to Adventure this is a. definition this is very much worth. knowing because people have no idea a. what to do with the concept of God it's. like God's The Call to Adventure that's. a definition okay but that's not all so.

God for Noah wasn't the Call to. Adventure not exactly for Noah God was. the call to batten down the hatches. whena when chaos looms so imagine that. you're a wise man which is how Noah is. portrayed in the story so you've. actually you see things straight you're. wise for your time and place which is. how Noah is described you're your eyes. are open and you get an intuition that. all hell's about to break loose and so. you take the appropriate precautions.

okay God is defined in that story as the. spirit that comes to the wise to have. them prepare in times of trouble and. then the co-occurrence of those stories. is the insistence that the call to. Adventure and the call to prepare are. the same thing that's the monotheism. that's underneath it right and so what. the biblical Corpus is doing is. aggregating visions of what's highest. and making the presumption that they are. all manifestations of a Unity now the.

alternative is that it's a plurality. right I mean you're going to cope with. this one way or another like either. everything that calls to you morally is. the manifestation of one thing in some. complex manner or there's a plurality of. moralities those are the only options. the monotheistic insistence is that. what's highest is in the final analysis. one thing so what else so how else is it. portrayed in the Old Testament stories. God is the voice of. conscience that's another portrayal and.

so you could say God is the voice of. conscience God is the impetus to prepare. in times of chaos and God is the Call to. Adventure and that's all the same God. it's just manifesting itself The Same. Spirit is making itself manifest in. different conditions in the Christian. Corpus God is identical with vol. voluntary God is the spirit of voluntary. self-sacrifice right right and that's.

the same as the spirit of Adventure and. that's the same as the voice of. conscience and that's the same as the. voice of prudence during times of chaos. it's all the same thing and that's I. think that's right I think it's I think. that's exactly right what was. the if you know what was the most. referenced verse in the Bible it it if I. remember right the graph showed yeah I. don't I that's a good question I don't.

know the answer to that actually it was. very uh yeah I was I love see that's a. that's a very good question because. that's actually one way of determining. what idea is Central right cuz some. ideas are going to be more Central than. others at the bottom of the of the of. the visual aid there was it showed the P. the length the number of connections the. number of cross references it was right. smack dab in the midle there was one. that would had to be at least double the. length of all the others yeah right I. was just yeah that would be interesting.

yeah that's for sure that's did you put. that together no no someone I found that. online you can find it online if you. look up biblical graph of biblical cross. references it'll pop up right away. something you can probably find for this. podcast and show people yeah it's great. it's great it's great I'll find it your. brain is organized like that too by the. way so it's every neuron is n connected. to every other neuron that isn't how it. works that's too much connection. actually that's what starts to happen in.

a psychedelic experience is that the. number of connections. increases dramatically that's partly why. there's that overwhelming sense of. increasing meaning so but you don't want. everything to be connected to everything. else I mean that's part of the pathology. of the modern world we're connecting. everything together it's like that's a. little too much connection it's it's. Insanity. making right we may be driving ourselves. mad with the interconnectivity online.

you know it's a great way of educating. yourself it's a great way of having. access to information but I'll tell you. man it's a great way of being connected. to all sorts of things you don't want to. be connected to. and it isn't obvious which of those is. going to get the upper hand you know. like I'm not it isn't obvious to me that. Twitter could be good. see because I'm afraid that the social. like let's take Twitter for example. Twitter is speech without.

responsibility speech without. responsibility might be fatal you know. and I I'm saying that as an advocate of. Free Speech but there's a very big. difference between free speech on. Twitter and the Free Speech you and I. are engaging in right now like you're. sitting right there there's a lot of. things that I'm not going to say to you. like not cuz I'm hiding but like I'm. going to be polite. Bight there would be an immediate. consequence there would definitely there. is no immediate consequence on Twitter.

well. worse the consequence of being. Psychopathic might be positive on. Twitter right whenever the Psychopaths. get the upper hand Society dies and it. could be like I'm afraid of this I. think it's possible that social media. enables the Psychopaths fundamentally. it's it's very worrisome I mean there. are a lot of Bad actors on well you know. you read comments you know people need.

to. slap yes they do they certainly do and. there's no way of administering said. slap and so one of the consequences of. that for example many psychological. commentators had made this point Twitter. devolves into female. aggression so females when they're. aggressive they use reputation savaging. gossip and innuendo it's unbelievably. corrosive cuz they can't engage in.

physical combat and so that makes female. antisocial Behavior unbelievably. pernicious and difficult. to. regulate Twitter. enables gossip reputation savaging and. innuendo unconstrained so what does that. mean would means means everybody who. tilts in that direction has free reign. but it also means that even if you don't. tilt in that direction it's going to.

tilt you in that. direction so and we don't know these are. unbelievably powerful communication. systems you know you can write something. casual that a million people will. read well maybe you shouldn't ever write. something casual that a million people. should read like maybe that's a reason. for it not to be casual maybe if we have. a technology that enables people to. discuss things casually with a million. people we just all die like that could.

be we have no idea what we're doing with. these transformations of of. communication we have no. idea it's very difficult to be on. Twitter without always feeling like you. need to take a. shower you know and I I I don't I I. wouldn't say that I'm at my best on. Twitter why do I use it I use it because. that's how I keep track of the doings of. 700 people that I know I do it so that I.

know what's happening in the moment and. that's often where I find my podcast. guests what's the. downside it's easy to say. stupid casual things. um and you're immersed in this. responsibilist landscape of casual. speech where all the Psychopaths come. out to play It's Made uh I mean I don't.

know if this is what made it but this is. something that I want to get into with. you is is. the the. polarization people have become I don't. know if this is the right word but. almost tribal it seems like and you know. what. really I'm always every day every single. day I wake up I'm wondering how did we. get here why is the why is the country. the way it is it's not just the country. it's the entire world why is the world.

the way it is now and and you know kind. of where I'm going with this is is. people have. put so much faith into political parties. political candidates they refuse. [Music]. to they refuse to look at or admit. wrongdoing of of of anybody that they. back and that's that's that's you you.

have the right call and the left sheep. yeah and they're doing the same thing. they're doing the same thing I could. show. them a million different things of hey. look at this is what this person did and. they will dismiss it and they will make. excuses for it and they put what why do. people. why is it so why has it become so polar. nobody can. can it's like we've lost all critical.

thinking skills in the world it seems. like to me. well the the new technologies flattened. the information. hierarchy so that everybody can. communicate with everyone everyone's now. a. journalist that might be too many. journalists you know we've radic. expanded the degree to which we're. connected with people and okay so you. can imagine if you're a good person. perhaps that's a good thing if you're a.

bad person it's a really bad thing a lot. of the people that aggregate together. online for. example they wouldn't have a single. friend in the actual real world no one. would like your base you know your. typical basement dwelling resentful. keyboard Warrior it's like if he was. left to his own devices without this. technological intermediation he'd have. zero impact on anything cuz no one can. stand being around him but he's. magnified madly. online and can aggregate with other. people that's what I mean in some ways.

by the enabling of the Psychopaths so. that's not that easy for psychopaths to. organize because no one likes them. including other Psychopaths. but well they can certainly organize. they can certainly organize. online and so we're enabling that and. people are not cognizant of the danger. I've talked to democrats for 7 years 50. congressmen Senators people in positions.

of authority RFK Dean. Phillips I always ask them the same. question when does the left go too far. they never answer they have no. idea they don't take the Fringe. seriously they think oh those people. don't mean it it's. like. you people tend to mean what they say. you know I know people lie. but often the easiest way to find out. what someone's up to is just to listen.

to what to say they'll tell you Hitler. told everyone what he was up to he wrote. a whole book about it oh no he couldn't. be up to that it's like yeah yeah pretty. much he was up to that these people who. come out and say you know we should burn. everything to the ground and start again. it's like that's what they mean oh they. don't really mean that they don't mean. that with Equity they don't mean. equality of outcome they don't really. mean that. they mean it they have sway. online and far more than is good for us.

is that part of the polarization I think. so I think the polarization is driven to. some degree by the fact that social. media enables the Psychopaths so we know. what they're like so here's the we know. this is true by the way because these. people are much more likely to troll. Post online so there's been. psychological investigations into that. what's the psychological make up of LOL. troll po po posters these are people who. are doing it for the laughs doing it for.

the lulls just causing trouble. hahaa they're. Psychopathic so that means they're. predatory. parasites they're narcissistic which. means they want reputation without. earning it they're maavalan which means. that they use their words to do nothing. but manipulate for their own short-term. benefit and to C it all off because. that's not enough they're sadistic which. means they take positive Delight in the. suffering of others all right that's.

that's not good none of that's good and. so you let those people take the upper. hand you're in serious trouble and you. don't need that many of them to bring. things to a shuttering halt you know it. was a very small minority of people who. fed the Russian. Revolution tiny percentage of the. population you let those people out of. the out from under their rocks at your. peril and the marginalized it's like we. should welcome the marginalized it's.

like okay what are you going to do with. The Fringe of the. margin well they don't exist it's like. wait till they show up at your door. buddy you'll be you'll be pretty you'll. be thinking twice about the fact that. you opened the gate when those people. show up and if the Fringe Of The Fringe. isn't enough to terrify you the margin. of The Fringe Of The Fringe. they'll do the trick and people don't. have we talked about this earlier they. don't have imagination for that kind of. evil they don't want to look at that.

even Michael. shellenberger I talked to Michael a. couple of weeks ago about the W path. files Marcy I think Bowers is his name. the surgeon who runs W path the surgeon. who operated on Jazz Jennings the. surgeon who's surgically converted. 12,000 people right an absolute bloody. monster it's like you want to look at. that well Michael told. when I started talking to Helen Joyce. for example who wrote a book on the. trans phenomena um he didn't want to.

look at it he he didn't believe he. couldn't believe that could be happening. that was Michael shellenberger I mean. Michael he'll look he looked into the. Twitter files I mean Michael's a great. journalist you know um what's his name. Bill no uh Mark Cuban came out the other. day on Lex fridman's show and he said. well in order to believe that this sort. of trans Butchery is happening I'd have. to believe that the nurses and the. Physicians and the psychologists are all. in on it well you have that's ridiculous.

it's like have it your way you know I. can see why you don't want to believe. that people won't. look we've given the mar the marginal. the upper hand in the social media. networks and that could be fatal like I. really mean that we don't we have no. idea we have no idea how significant. this transformation and communication is. we have no idea the long-term. consequence let's say of Twitter I mean. mus took it over because he hoped he.

could make it into something good you. know on the Free Speech side and I think. he's improved it a lot but it could be. intrinsically. evil it's highly probable well think. about it this way what's the probability. that a radical revolution in. connectivity would only have positive. consequences like zero right cuz. positive consequences they're really. if you take any complex system and you. radically disturb it the probability. that the radical disturbance will be a.

net good is infinitesimally low compared. to all the ways it could fall apart you. can't throw a wrench into a military. helicopter and improve. it. so and what we've done is we've. connected people that's a major league. technological transformation. yeah I mean how do we how do we get. through this I mean it's nobody holds. themselves accountable anymore everybody. wants to pass the.

buck people not only are making excuses. only not only for themselves but they're. making excuses for their their political. figures parties candidates whatever you. want to call it and and all I all I see. is just bitching why did you why did you. invite me onto this podcast because I. want to pick your brain about okay but. but obviously part of the reason is. because you've. observed the effects or the consequences.

of what I'm doing MH okay what do you. think those consequences or effects are. I think they're making people think okay. okay so is and you think that's a good. thing absolutely okay so what in the. manner in which I'm inviting people to. think do you think what part of that do. you think is good what element of that. is good I think that. I think that people have lost the. ability. to think for themselves and they are.

being let around by the nose by. political candidates and I think when. somebody like you gets a platform and. speaks it forces them to get out of that. hamster wheel and okay okay so okay so. so you asked what can be done about this. well what I've observed is most. effective is something like a call to. Adventure. that this is. why the work I've been doing has. resonated with in particular with young.

men because it's a call to Adventure. it's a call to Adventure through. responsibility and no one's doing that. we haven't done that with young people. for 60 years and so there's a huge hole. there and if you I see this wherever I. go if I talk about the relationship. between responsibility adventure and. meaning people get it right away you. know I mean you think when you're raking. yourself over the coals of your. conscience and you're searching in your.

soul for something you've done that's. good so that you don't have to take. yourself out on the Despair and nihilism. front you're going to be looking for. times when you made real sacrifices on. behalf of something higher and that was. successful when you were of service to. other people when you were good for the. people that you loved when you went out. of your way to accomplish something. difficult you'll be able to. satisfy your conscience with those. memories well what if you just lived. like that that's the that's the.

Christian call the Christian call is to. Bear maximal. responsibility that's what the cross. means it means to pick up your cross and. walk uphill what's what's the cross. death pain malevolence that's what it is. it's unjust death that's the cross what. does it mean to bear that well means to. Bear the weight of Life responsibly why. do that cuz it's deeply well first of. all it's good and just that in of itself.

might be sufficient but it's also it's. it's in keeping with that it's deeply. meaningful I tell young men it's like. find something difficult to do you need. that you're not built. for Comfort or pleasure like if that. comes along good you know if you have a. day where you're comfortable and there's. some things around you that give. pleasure have some sense and enjoy it.

but don't be thinking that's what your. life is aimed at that's contemptible. everyone knows that everyone knows that. and if they Orient themselves in that. hedonistic direction there's nothing in. it but shame no one is proud of. themselves for using. pornography they might Screech and. about their right to do it you know I. can live whatever lifestyle I want want. it's like well first of all no you can't. that doesn't work it won't work for you. cuz you can't sell yourself out and it.

won't work for other people we know for. example who engages in hedonistic. short-term mating strategies we know. that from the psychological literature. so imagine on the one end of the. reproductive strategy distribution are. people who commit to the long run and on. the other end are the people who pursue. short-term. hedonistic one nightst relationships. okay now you can ask who are these. people well the people who commit to the.

short-term responsibility L sexual. gratification relationship are. Psychopathic narcissistic. movellan and sadistic and if they don't. start out that way they train themselves. to become that with that lifestyle right. so like. okay you might ask like the Marquee dad. you might ask well who the hell cares if. I can gratify myself at your expense why.

the hell shouldn't I who's to say that's. wrong and my answer to that would. be go try. it see what happens well what'll happen. you will degenerate cuz you're. exploiting other people and yourself and. you can't exploit other people and. yourself without. degenerating you will never form Rel. relationship because Who the hell's. going to hang around with you if it's. all about you and all about you in the. moment you're the last person anyone.

wants to be around so that means that as. you age you'll become increasingly. isolated there's nothing more Despicable. than a 50-year-old. hedonist oldest guy at the Frat party oh. that's a hell of a that's a hell of a. name you know you know perfectly well at. some maybe if you're 30 at a frat party. even then like the eyebrows are up if. you're 40 not only their eyebrows up. you're kind of a creep or maybe you're. really a creep like a serious creep and.

creep can get pretty damn serious. so those Lifestyles they don't work they. don't work for the person because. they're not sustainable not within the. context of the relationships that would. make for a community and they don't work. communally obviously because Community. is based on sacrifice that's why. society's civilized societies are. monogamous well why well because if you. dispense with.

monogamy what happens if you dispense. with monogamy well we already know. here's what's happening on the college. campuses so imagine now you have a. college campus that's 65% female and 35%. male so you think well that's pretty. good for the men cuz they're making out. like Bandits it's like. no a tiny fraction of the men are making. out like Bandits like you know maybe 10%. of them let's say it's probably more. like 5% High status high value males. they sort of have the pick of the women. and the women are all after those guys.

they don't care about the other guys. they're after those guys and those guys. have like 10 women so what are they. learning well they're learning how to. exploit 10 women so they're just turning. into exploiters what happens with the. women well they don't have a. relationship they're all chasing the. same high status guy and he has options. so he doesn't have to make any. sacrifices to formulate a long-term. relationship so the women who any of the. decent women are they're just what the. hell's left for them they can sell. themselves out you know to be an easy.

lay for the high status guy but that. women pay a massive price for that women. pay way more a price for sexual. immorality than men do because the cost. for them is obviously much greater the. risk is much higher so the shame is. greater in. consequence you know I don't think it's. any better for a man to do do that than. for a woman that's not my point but a a. promiscuous woman is selling herself. out immediately and in the long run in a.

way that's more profound than a. promiscuous man they're equally morally. reprehensible in some. ways. maybe would you say just about any man. any man who was put in the top 5% would. they act the same well that's. complicated isn't it here's a reason. Andrew Tate's. popular Andrew Tate's popular because. it's better to be Andrew Tate than to be. an.

incel right and so it's not surprising. that a man who has zero sexual value. would admire someone who has his pick. and choice of. H CU that's actually an. improvement. right it's the. Improvement someone who's peaceful. because they're a. coward is an improvement over a gang. member who will fight he's worse he's. just pathetic his goodness is all. weakness the gang member at least he.

fight now is the gang member good well. he's good compared to the coward is he. good compared to what's good no and. Andrew Tate's the same way in some ways. or the the people who let's say the this. the pathway that. Tate. represents he had enough enourage to go. there out there and get for himself at. least he isn't hiding in his basement. you know and he's a fighter and so you. can see why people admire that too.

because he he actually does put himself. on the. line but he worked as an electronic pimp. well if you have no women working as an. electronic pimp that looks like a pretty. damn good deal but it's not it's not the. right. deal the right deal is to be attractive. to women radically attractive to. women radically attract Ive enough to. women so that you have your pick of. women and then to find one.

woman and Society falls apart if that. doesn't. happen that's a sacrifice obviously I. mean it's a funny sacrifice. because what you get from the sacrifice. is your life you know I mean I've been. like I said I've been married for 35. years okay so what's the advantage to. that well I've been through a lot with. my wife she understands me she. understands in a deep way she's been. with me for decades five decades she.

knows me in a way that no one else could. possibly know me we were kids together. we've gone through all these. Transformations together we've had kids. together we've gone through a lot of. Adventures and trials we know each other. deeply there's a huge there's. huge significance in that there's huge. reality in that and challenge to keep it. working and. dynamic otherwise your life fragments I. mean it's.

it's it's an interesting conversation. because everybody everybody I I think. that everybody has the temptation to in. in in it's in it's in all being well if. you don't have the Temptation then. you're lying or you're weak yeah it's. it's in all beings that that the male. wants to to plant his seed in as many. females as possible yeah well that's a. proclivity and. so it's I 100% agree with what you're.

saying but it's just it's. it's well that's the re the female. romantic fantasy the female myth is. beauty and. beast table. beast in in the Disney movie Beauty and. the Beast. the woman who's quite a stellar. character right she's beautiful and. she's wise and she's intelligent she has.

her choice she's got narcissist like. she's got loser the villag men she's got. narcissist that's Gest all and she's got. Beast now you might think and and the. stupid women like the narcissists they. don't like the losers they don't like. the. dwarfs they like the narcissist now. stupid women like narcissists naive. women like narcissists because they. confuse their narcissism with competence. and confidence that's how narcissists. exploit they look like they're confident. they look like they're competent Beauty.

Gaston is after her wants to charm her. she goes for the Beast well the Beast is. a. monster he's he's a traumatized monster. even but she hopes that he's table that. she can bring him into relationship and. like a good Beast has options. but he'll forgo the options for the. relationship that's the female sexual. fantasy so table Beast now that's rough.

right. because How likely is it that you're. going to be able to tame a. beast not that likely. but pretty damn useful if you can do. it then you have someone who can keep. the real beasts at. Bay right and it it's a really like. women have to negotiate a very tight. line cuz they're looking for men who are. disagreeable enough to be able to tell. the monsters to go to hell but who are. generous and productive enough to share.

that's a tight that's a hard target to. hit it's a hard target for a man to. become too you know cuz you can imagine. Tate would be a good example of that. he's got all the Temptations of success. well why not fall prey to them well. compared to not having success or The. Temptations It's better to have success. in The Temptations but it's actually. better to have the success uccess and. then not fall prey to The. Temptations right then that's a real. Mastery high order Mastery that's truly.

admirable 100% agreed I would like to. move. into you obviously study a lot about the. Bible and I love a lot of the things. that you say about it on your podcast. you have all these all these. you're digging you're dig you're you're. talking to religious figures you're. you're discussing the Bible you're all. these things yet and I researched you.

and I wanted to figure out what you. believe and I couldn't find it I found. that a question that you despise is do. you believe in God and so I'd like to. dig in and see the thing about God is. that God isn't something you believe in. this is the thing or people or you could. say that the way we conceptualize belief. in the modern world is. shallow to believe in God is to commit.

your. life that's what the belief is it isn't. the statement I believe in. God you. could the statement can get in the way. it does all the time it says in the. gospels Christ says not everyone who. says Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of. Heaven just because you say you believe. something it's. like people say all the time that. they're Christians I'm a believing. Christian it's like that's hard they.

buddy that's the most difficult possible. commitment by definition it's the. because it's the hoisting of the Cross. right really you're going to commit to. that are you so here's what you're. committing to. painful painful unjust death accompanied. by betrayal the pery of the mob and the. Dominion of the Tyrant and you're going. to welcome that and that's not all. because Christ Harrows hell that's not.

all that's just where it starts full. confrontation with. malevolence you're going to commit to. that are you that's what you're doing. what do you mean you're going to commit. to that you mean you're going to commit. to believe that he went that Christ. you're going do that that you're going. to do. it in your own life that's what Christ. calls upon people to do that's the. imitation of Christ that's at the core. of a genuine Christian. commitment now people will.

say you can't get to Heaven by works. alone and that's true that's not what I. mean that's not that's not the point. here the point is that the belief is a. commitment to a pattern the pattern is. full voluntary. confrontation full naked crucified. voluntary confrontation. accepted it in good faith with joy and. courageously bring it on military people.

understand. this or at least an aspect of it right. because they put their lives on the line. and not just their lives their. souls and so it's a hell of a thing to. ask of people Christianity is not a. comfort look Christ says his his burden. is light. and what does he what does that mean it. means that there's really nothing that's. more that can provide abundance and. security like the truth so that's the.

lightness part of it but the cross part. of it. is you have. to decide not to shrink away from. anything you don't get to live in a. pumpkin shell. anymore that's the people Christ comes. back at the end of time and he doesn't. Reserve his wrath for the. Sinners he reserves his wrath for people. who sit on the fence and you know people.

who want normal a normal secure life I'm. I'm not pillaring that I'd rather have. them than the radicals and the. revolutionaries but there's that's not. what a human being. is like we're we're bounders over the. over the stormy ocean you know we're. built for a life of. radical harness and. Adventure we're built for the maximum. sacrifice that's what it means to.

believe to accept that No Holds Barred. away the hell we. go and so people say they're believing. Christians it's like. really really you dare say that you have. no idea what you're saying because it's. a total commitment it's a total. commitment to ride out to confront and. write out the worst I'll give you an. example so in uh in the story of Exodus. the Israelites are lost in the desert.

they're lost for like 45 years and. they're always whining and bitching and. complaining and acting like you know. privileged slaves and pining for the. Tyranny and hoping for the golden calf. and um complaining that the Heavenly. food they have to eat isn't good enough. because there's not enough variety it's. like they're really quite contemptible. and near the end of their. Voyage to the promised land really On. the Border they run out of water again. and. uh they go to Moses they get all.

about it and. um they're faithless and complaining and. God gets sick of them again and he sends. a bunch of poisonous serpents in to bite. them and you might think well no good. God would do that it's like. you you you don't you're not paying. attention to the story what's the story. if you're lost and faithless and then. you get whiny and. resentful it's just going to make it. worse and so you're in the desert and.

you don't have enough to drink and. there's all sorts of stupid things you. can do that bring the. snakes forward and so that's what. happens is that it's already bad and. they make it worse so now there's all. these poisonous snakes biting them and. they get tired of it eventually and they. go to Moses and they saywell we know. that you can talk to God and so do you. want to see if he'll call off the snakes. and God go Moses goes and has a chat. with God and uh God says basically that. he's pretty sick and tired of the. Israelites and he thinks that some more.

snakes might be just thing they need but. he decides that maybe he'll listen to. Moses because Moses has you know stored. up a certain amount of Good Will and so. God says to. Moses cast a serpent in. bronze and put it on a bronze pole and. put it in the midst of the Israelites so. they can all look on it and if they look. at it then the poison won't affect them. he doesn't get rid of the. snakes he calls upon the Israelites to. face what they're avoiding to face.

what's poisoning them and because of. that they become stronger that's life. man and so Christ says later much later. that he has to be lifted up like the. snake in the desert which is a very. strange thing for anyone to say and the. Israelites have to look on what they're. terrified of in order to. obtain resilience that's the healing. Motif that stake snake on the staff is. the symbol of aus it's the symbol that.

Physicians still use now to represent. their healing Enterprise a little of. what poisons you makes you stronger. that's the theory right and that's the. theory of voluntary confrontation well. Christ the the crucifix is the same. image except expanded it's like all. possible snakes. it's all the things that could happen to. you if the worst possible things. happened to you all at once and the. Christian calling is to welcome.

that right to become the sort of person. who could welcome. that job for example in the story of job. job is tortured by Satan himself job's a. good man and God's bragging about him in. heaven about how good he is and Satan. comes along and says I don't think he's. that good and God says what do you mean. and Satan says he's just privileged. things are going well for him and so. he's good let me add him for a while and. we'll see if he's good and God says I.

think he's good do your worst and so job. is ever all. his Enterprises. collapse his servants all. die his wealth is demolished he ends up. extremely ill with a disfiguring disease. he s sitting in the ashes demolished his. wife tells him that all that's left for. him is to shake his fist at God and die. and then his friends come and tell him.

that it's all his fault and so that's. job and what does job do job. says these terrible things have happened. to me but that's not because of some. Central flaw in me I he maintains his. faith in his integral humanity and he. refuses to lose faith in God and and. it's kind of perverse in a way because. job has bloody reason to shake his fist. at God and die which is what his wife. tells him to do and job's insistence is. no no matter what happens to you you're.

called upon to maintain faith and move. forward and that's expanded in the in. the crucifix St crucifixion story so. with all your studies that you've done. in the Bible. and I'm asking you because because you. have immersed yourself in it in in in. and you you've studied it for so long do. you believe in it well I believe in it. in the way that I that we just described. do I believe that the truth sets you.

free. absolutely it isn't that I believe it. even I know it's. true I know it's true and I try to. live in that. knowledge it's very difficult to only. think or say things that are true but. you can practice it mhm and it's a great. relief as you pointed out you don't have. to keep track of. anything that's just in just that in of. itself is is it's freeing that's for.

sure that's for sure do I believe that. Christ is the way and the life and that. no one comes to the father but through. him sure but I also know what that means. it means that imagine that you want. to have the Spirit of the almighty dwell. within you say in this Old Testament. manner how do you do that by taking the.

burden of Life on yourself voluntarily. why because that Co causes the best. within you to make itself manifest you. know that look why did you push yourself. on the military front why did you go. become a Navy. SEAL that's a ridiculous thing to do. right they just torture you to death in. the water why' you do. it because I wanted to serve my country. in the highest capacity possible okay so. why did you think that so you believed.

that there was a highest capacity yes. right so that was an element of faith. and you and so personally you put. yourself through this brutal. transformative process what how did that. change. you in a lot of ways it changed me it. we've been talking about this off and on. there was a lot of Pride involved. and when I graduated from that I never.

felt more Pride another reason I did it. was I always felt that I had fallen. short in childhood and I wanted my. parents to have something to be proud of. okay so let's separate Pride from. accomplishment okay right cuz you could. see pride would be warranted pride in. your accomplishment but that doesn't. mean that there's no such thing as. accomplishment okay so do you feel that. you accomplished something real when you. went through the Navy SEAL training.

program absolutely okay why was it. real because it's the it why was it real. it was the hardest thing that I've done. right that's right yeah was it. meaningful absolutely was it. transformative yes and it was the. hardest thing you'd ever done okay well. that's the that's the pathway the. pathway to what's most real is through. the hardest things that you can do right. and that's the path obviously that's the. path of Adventure you know you go watch.

a James Bond movie which everyone loves. to do right a romantic adventure well. what's James Bond doing all the time. impossible things and everybody thinks. wow that's so well so what it's not fun. exactly right. cuz it's better than fun fun is for kids. let's say this is that that pathway of. sacrificial Adventure that's way better. than just fun even.

though because it's difficult even the. pathway of maximal difficulty now I. don't mean you should go out and play in. traffic just because it's dangerous you. know. but this is something and this is. something that it's been one of the. things that's been great about these. continued tours is that I can see. people's lights go on when I talk about. this it's like no no you're going to put. yourself together by shouldering maximum. responsibility no one's ever told me. that it's like because you see the. conservatives say you.

should and they finger wag but that's. not the right it's not the optimal way. of presenting it it's like no you don't. understand is that the meaning that will. sustain you in your life will be found. in the shouldering voluntary shouldering. of Maximum. responsibility and everyone knows that. you know if you're if you go out of your. way for your friends you have better. friendships if you go out of way go out. of your way for your wife you have a. better marriage if you go out of your. way for your kids you have better kids I.

don't mean in this like resentful. martyrdom I don't mean resentful. martyrdom I mean generous sacrificial. productivity if you give yourself away. you get more back that's for sure in in. the universities I always noticed this. with professors especially when I was a. graduate student there were two kinds of. professors you could work with if you. were a graduate student which means. you're kind of an apprentice scientist. there was. the professor who had the odd idea and.

was. really Zero Sum about those ideas always. suspicious of his students because maybe. they're taking his ideas and not giving. him credit not generous with publication. name for example um always assuming that. everything was in short supply and that. his ideas were hyper valuable and that. he couldn't trust his students because. he needed to get credit for what he was. doing then there was the other kind of. supervisor my supervisor was like this.

he just gave away all his ideas he. really did what he could to Foster the. development of the career of his. students what happened well because he. gave away all his ideas he was. surrounded by enthusiastic students who. were really happy about him and what he. was doing and that was rewarding and so. the part of his brain that was producing. those ideas grew. cuz things grow if you reward them and. so then he had even more. ideas it's this inexhaustible well that. is replenished by.

its inconsequence of generosity that's. that radical giving away that's a form. of. courage and that's also part of this. sacrificial pathway forward why does. Christ call upon people to be radically. generous. because that's the best there isn't a. better strategy than that you know that. man you know that if if you're radically. productive and generous people flock to.

work with you well that's a good deal. for you you know could you could imagine. a situation where if you're in a. relationship with someone it's 60% for. them and 40% for you just imagine that. and you might say well that's not fair. it's like well how about you have 20. relationships like that because people. are lining up and so with each you only. get 40% but you got 20 of them or maybe. a 100 or maybe a thousand now you know. I'm not sure those ratios are correct. but you you get my point if you're going.

to eror on the side of generosity how. could that do anything but work to your. long-term Advantage I don't mean in that. selfish and manipulative way it's the. strategy of community per. se we know among archaic people Hunters. Hunter gather. groups if you're a good Hunter you still. fail most of the. time so if you're going to be a good.

Hunter for your family you have to deal. with the fact that some of the time even. though you're a good Hunter you're not. going to produce any food so how do you. deal with that well you go lead all your. men on a hunt and you take down your. Mammoth let's say and you give the best. parts to everyone else and you downplay. your role in the hunt why because the. next time. the like fifth guy in the hunting group. brings down a mammoth he's pretty godamn. happy to share with you right absolutely.

man absolutely and you know I'm I'm sure. you understand that perfectly well in. the military context right the leaders. that people will follow to their death. aren't the tyrants MH those are the guys. that get shot in the back you know on. the front lines when they've pushed. their Authority a little harder than. would be. wise we only have about 5 minutes left. before you get a jump for your flight. and I have one more question a lot of.

people think that we are in end. times and as much as you've explored the. Bible are you seeing. any any. symbolic any any symbolism that we are. in end times especially today with the. eclipse happening I say. that the end times in the Book of. Revelation are always with. us life is characterized by apocalypse.

right it's built into the structure of. life no matter what you produce it's. going to come to an end right there's. cataclysmic there's cataclysm everywhere. always are we in end. times things are moving very quickly. around us. right quick and an UNP paralleled Manner. and so the Contours of the mythological. world are becoming clearer are we in end. times there's no difference between end.

times and Times of Rapid technological. transformation could that go terribly. wrong yes could It Go extremely. well yes how will it go extremely well. if we become as wise as we are. technologically. proficient that's what. attempting. to.

communicate we've. got big. toys we better play the right game with. them what's the right game well that's. the that's the religious question what's. the right. game the right game is. certainly sacrificial like that's I. think that's obvious just in consequence. of. definition Community is a sacrificial. Enterprise it's why. the the altar is a place of sacrifice.

right the altar is at the center of the. church and the church is at the center. of the community well why because. sacrifice is at the center of the. community what do you sacrifice well you. sacrifice the present for the. future that's maturity literally that's. what maturity is and you sacrifice the. self for for the. community and. so the most mature sacrifice is the. sacrifice of self for community and.

future that's as far as I'm concerned. that's just self all you have to do is. think that through and it's instantly. self-evident you know if you have a. father it's father you. admire and love are and are grateful for. your your all of that will be in. proportion to his sacrif on behalf of. the family. obviously my father did everything for. us it's hell the thing to say about. someone it's the it's at the core of.

what we admire it's obviously at the. core of. community you know a Monster who a. father sacrifices his sexual pracy for. his. children it's a hell of an. offer well Jordan time is up I don't. want to to miss your flight so uh I just. want to say thank you for the for the. conversation and and thank you for. coming on the show and it was truly an.

honor to meet you thank you sir feelings. Mutual hope to do it again cheers you. bet thanks a lot man yeah thank you. [Music]. y no no matter where you're watching. Shan Ryan Show from if you get anything. out of this please like comment. subscribe and most importantly share. this everywhere you possibly can and if.

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