Danny Goler - Apple Vision Pro May Have Captured Something We CAN'T Explain | SRS #320

[music]. Danny Gouller, welcome to the show, man. >> Sean, thank you so much for having me. >> My pleasure. So, I had Chase Hughes on and he brought. up this uh laser DMT kind of experiment. I don't even know what we call it, but. really caught my attention. Love Chase. Hughes, too, by the way. >> He's a great guy. He's a good friend. Yeah. And then uh and then we had this. reel that like went viral about the DMT.

laser thing and uh our mutual friend. Rich, I'll leave his last name out of. it, but he texted me right away. He's. like, "Holy you know Danny?" And I. was like, "No, I don't." And he's like, "You got to meet him D." And um so, dude, I'm I'm uh stoked you're here. Thank you so much for having me. I. appreciate that. >> My pleasure. My pleasure. But um yeah, let me start you off with an. introduction because uh I know once we. get into this thing, it's just going to. go. But. >> this is water, right? >> This is that's water. [laughter].

>> Danny Gouller, you're an independent. researcher and the founder of Code of. Reality, an interdisciplinary initiative. exploring what you call co cognitive. physics, the intersection where mind and. matter meet. Through code of reality, you bring together scientists, philosophers, technologists, and. indigenous wisdomkeepers to investigate. the relationship between consciousness. and the nature of reality. Ultimately, your goal is to advance a more holistic.

science of consciousness, one that can. exist alongside and complement. mainstream physics. It's going to be an. awesome interview. [laughter]. Um, so before we get started, a couple. things real quick. Everybody gets a. gift. >> Let's go. Thank you so much. >> Vigilance Elite Gummy Bears. There's no. DMT in those unfortunately, >> but they are legal in all 50 states. >> Thank you. >> And uh, made [clears throat] in. Michigan. And then I have a Patreon.

account. You familiar with Patreon? >> Of course. Yeah, I have a little YouTube. channel. So, yeah, I also have a little. Patreon. >> Oh, nice. Um, so Patreon, they're the. reason I get to sit down here with you. today and they've been with us since the. beginning. So they get the opportunity. to ask every single guest a question. >> Sure thing. >> So this is from JB. Christians believe. there are angels and demons among us. Some people claim to have seen them. Is. there any evidence in your research with. DMT that this spirit realm exists? And.

do you believe in angels and demons? Yeah, that's a it's a great question. Um, the short answer is yes. Um, but I don't think that the nature of. those is as straightforward as people. think. >> So, it's clear to me at this point that. way more exist than just the realm that. we're perceiving. And, you know, for. religious people, this is not a surprise. because they do believe that there's a. realm beyond. And in fact, this whole.

life is some form of, you know, getting. into the right place with the right uh. with the right people. Um, so I think. that with DMT, it's a little bit more. surprising than people would expect. because what you see is not necessarily. the kind of classical, you know, demonic. versus angelic. It's more like a very. large array of species that you. experience. And you can, it doesn't. always happen. Uh, but if you do, then.

there's all kinds, including what I. guess you would call demonic and. angelic. I've experienced both, by the. way. Really? >> So, yeah. But you also have the. insectoids, the um uh the uh the. reptilians, uh the jokers. There's all. kinds of and they're very clearly. distinct from one another. So, they're. very different. Um but yes, that that demonic part and the angelic. part, they're also there. I would say. though that one of the things that I've.

I've seen is that they actually coexist, so to speak. So, it's almost like if you. want to use like um like a very dumb. down uh kind of example, if they're going to work on a bus, they're all kind of like just sitting. together. Like there's no like. segregation in that way, >> but everybody are still following some. rules. Sometimes somebody's trying to. break the rules, but even what you would. call the demonic entities. Uh we just. had some conversation about this with. your crew about like um sleep paralysis.

for example where people feel like like. a demon is sitting on their chest or. something like this, right? Or a witch or something like this. And I. was saying that very often if you have. these like darker experiences, especially if you're a religious person, you can set up a very clear boundary. You can say say things like in the name. of Jesus Christ I'm setting a boundary. right here or in my body and nothing is. allowed to but you have to state it. So. you have to invoke the boundary and you. have to be clear about that. The second. you do that something happens. It's. almost like they're incapable of.

entering it anymore or they're not. allowed to to such a degree that it's. almost like nobody wants to find out. what happens if you cross that line. So. I would say that yes, I've seen that. kind of stuff. But at the same time. there are things that we can be in. relationship to that can actually create. a very clear boundary between us and it. because the agency the the importance of. the sovereignty of every free agent in. existence is is basically almost like a.

holy thing like nothing can ever. penetrate that boundary. So I don't know. if that answers the question. >> That's interesting. What what were the I. wasn't planning on going into all this. right off the [laughter] bat, but you'd. mentioned angelic demonic, then. something else, then reptilians, and. then something. >> insectoids. Reptilians. Yeah. >> What are insect? What? Hold on. What is. that? >> Yeah. So, like this is where if we're. going to this is not how I would. introduce this the topic for sure, but. we're doing this for Patreon, right? This is for.

>> Well, we do you want to go into it. later? just because that if you start. there, it will I I think it will. actually turn a lot of people off. because it's way too deep immediately. and people like it's just too crazy for. them. >> Yeah, let's save it. Yeah, we'll get. there. >> So, [clears throat] okay, let's start it. off. >> How did you get introduced to DMT? >> I was looking for it. So, I was already. a very experienced psychonaut. Um, not. something I recommend anyone does, but I.

started doing uh like acid when I was 11. and then I never Yeah, I was a I was a. wild kid and I did it throughout my life. quite a bit and then by the time I was. in 2010. uh that's when I found EMT for the first. time. So like I found I heard about it I. think 2006 or something I heard uh it. was a Joe Rogan rant on some Ohio radio. show. it it was before he had the show. or anything and he was just raving about. it and I was like what is that like I've.

done so many psychedelics I've never. heard of DMT I had to find out because. there was a line that Joe said that. grabbed my attention beyond anything he. said it doesn't feel like you're in. another dimension you are in another in. another dimension and I knew exactly. what he meant by that I was like okay I. got to find out whatever that is and I. tried to find it couldn't find it I. lived in Indianapolis apolis back then. I tried to make it uh not very.

successfully. Uh and then only when I. arrived in California is when I managed. to actually find it finally. And then I. tried and tried and tried. It actually. didn't work for me like 10 times. And I. kept on trying. And back in the day, it. was it was pretty a pretty gnarly thing. to do because you didn't have the luxury. of like vape pens and things like this. It was just like a basically a crackpipe. and you just smoked this thing and it. was like smoking glass. It was awful. Um, and eventually it worked and sure. enough it delivered on every front. So.

to anybody who doesn't know, DMT stands. for dimethylryptoamine and it's. essentially a neurom modulator that a. lot of living things have including. humans. We make it. So our our lungs. make it. Uh, some portions of your brain. synthesize it. And if you smoke it, so. if you take more into your system, it. produces an effect that doesn't feel. like the effect of a drug because in. every substance that you use, alcohol, weed, doesn't matter. You feel that.

something is being done to the machinery. of your psychology. Like you're changing. clearly, like you feel different, right? With DMT, it doesn't really feel like. that. You're not changing. the world is. completely in such ways that really begs. the question whether what you're seeing. is a hallucination or actually coming. from somewhere. The the realism of it um. is is not something you're familiar with. and that is why it captivates so much of. so many people's imagination around the.

world including scientists who are now. studying the substance under the. question of whether it's actually real. So you know in as a small side tangent. most psychedelic research rev revolves. around the question of therapy right. therapeutic like can you get over. addiction PTSD things like this but DMT. specifically and NDMT is being studied. through the lens of wait a second. are we interacting with an actual place.

so that's that's the front and center. question in some of the research. programs. >> like the Imperial College in London. So this is being taken seriously and. I've actually I just came from a. conference in LA where uh Andrew. Gallamore Dr. Andrew Galammore who's. kind of one of the more known uh. psychedelic researchers as a. neuroscientist and a and a computational. neuropharmacologist. um and um and Donald Hoffman I don't. know if you have you heard of Donald. Hoffman. >> sounds familiar. >> yeah so he's the guy who's basically.

grocked this way of uh investigating. consciousness from a mathematical. perspective and his claim is that when. we look at the the the mathematical. models modeling agents in any. environment. We discover that there is. no way that agents are aware of the. world for what it really is. And he. found a mathematical framework to. describe consciousness. And they just. collaborated. It it felt like an. inflection in history. Uh because they. use psychedelics as a use as a as a test.

case where they can test Donald. Hoffman's theories. Basically there's. something they call um I think it's. called experience kernel which is. basically a mathematical object that you. can basically kind of spin around and it. contains um it contains other. mathematical object called tra trace uh. logic which is basic and what they're. showing is that by changing the if I. understood it correctly by changing the. the experience kernel you can determine.

or predict what kind of an experience. people could have. So they're now using. psychedelics to test this and it so this. has t been taken seriously by very. prominent known scientists. Uh and uh. it's encouraging because up until maybe. a decade ago this was considered just. fringe thinking insanity you know and. now all of a sudden it's being taken a. lot more seriously. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> What is the I mean I've done 5 MO DMT.

I've done psilocybin I gain MDMA. You're. pretty experienced. >> I think that's it. I've never done DMT. >> Mhm. >> Or anything other than 5 MO. DMT is it? What What is the Have you done five? >> Yeah. So, the first thing to say is that. you've done the top. Like, I don't think. you can have a bigger experience than 5. MO. That's it's it's as big as it gets, right? You're basically in the presence. of something divine and you're being. washed over with this ocean of white. light and you just fully dissolve. But. with DMT, even though it it's also big,

I wouldn't say it's as, you know, like. it can be, but it's it's not as. hard-hitting as 5 MO, but it's. surprising in a different it can be. shocking in a different way in that you. experience a lot of new content. So, just like, you know, you wake up from a. dream, let's say a very realistic dream, and in the dream you were convinced that. you knew that person or you had that job. or whatever it is that you were doing. Then you wake up and you go, "Oh, wait, right, that was a dream." Okay, well.

imagine that one level up from this. Imagine waking up from here and going, "Wait, what?" Like, "Oh, right. That was. a dream." But for real. Imagine that for. real. So that's kind of like what DMT. feels like. >> So it's very shocking. And also the. content you experience is uh very weird. It's it's uh it's of a kind that you. didn't even know was possible to. experience. So it can be, you know, shocking in that regard, but but it's,

you know, it's a very different kind of. experience than five. Interesting. So, I [clears throat] know you've. discussed this probably a thousand times. by now, but how did the laser I mean the. the whole reason that you caught my. attention was Chase Hughes talking about. on DMT you can shine a red laser on a. wall and you'll see code. >> and then you can look through the laser. through different angles and see more. code. >> Yeah. And as you move the laser, the co.

the it moves on to different code. And I. was watching some of your stuff earlier. and it's somebody was describing it like. a flashlight. Like if you signed a. shined a flashlight in the wall, you. would just see code, but it's. >> it's there but it's not there. And. you've had I think over 2,000 people. witness the same thing. >> At this point, it's thousands. Yeah. Um, so the way I arrived at it, there's a. there's a movie that we're going to be, uh, well, we're already at the end of. it, so we're in the process of selling.

it now. Uh, it's called The Discovery by. Aaron Vendon, the director. Huge shout. out to Aaron. He's incredible. And, um, so the full story is going to be in that. movie. Um, but the general gist of it. was that I've had a certain kind of. experience, even though everything I. just told you about the empty, I've had. a kind of experience on it that was even. more real than that. in that it was just. a being that appeared in front of me or. to the side of me as real as you, but he. was like this hybrid between like a like.

a some kind of an amphibian, a frog or a. lizard or something like a combination. But just take yourself through this for. a second, right? If you're willing to. just follow me there and and not kind of. because there's always these. assumptions, right? If if if a person. doesn't know who I am, like who knows. why people tell you what they tell you, right? They confabulate, they lie, who. knows, right? But if you're willing to. follow me there, just imagine what it. would be like to all of a sudden this. happened to you. Like like an alien. appears right next to you as real as a.

person and nothing else is happening. There's no like psychedelic explosion, none of that. I mean, at that moment, I just I was. like, "Oh my like. like I really did it this time, right?". And then he showed me how to play chords. on a guitar that I didn't know how to. do. So essentially, he was telling me, I'm real because I'm giving you. information you don't have. Currently, you don't know how to play these chords. I'm telling you how to do that. So I.

knew that in that moment, I knew that. nothing will ever be the same again. because I knew that even though I can't. really prove this to anyone right now, for me, I know for a fact that this is. not a hallucination. It can't be. It's. so specific. It's so realistic. and he's. giving me information that I don't have. Now the journey be became how do I prove. this to others? How do we talk about. this in a way that science can actually. get its hands on because science deals. with things that are measurable and. repeatable? So then for years I spent.

trying to figure out how that can be. done. So there was all kinds of ways in. which I was thinking about it. But I I. figured okay because the problem seems. to be so insurmountable we have to think. from the most fundamental principles we. can. So almost like a physicist and I. thought okay what do I know? I know that. light is involved because I can see the. content with my eyes. Now obviously the. brain is involved a lot but what is. happening with light that carries that. information to me right? And then I.

thought what else do we know? We know. that if the space is real, like existing. on its own side, that means it must have. a geometry. It must have a topology. It. must have rules, its own laws of. physics, even if they're not our laws of. physics. And then for some reason, I had. this very strong intuition that told me. that there has to be a boundary because. we sometimes see it, sometimes we don't. see it. Right? So that fact alone, this. binary tells me that we penetrate some. kind of a boundary somewhere. And I was. interested in that boundary. I asked.

myself what can we find that boundary. because I my intuition was that even. though a lot of people report similar. things on DMT you know very often people. report the same beings or something like. this but how do you really know it's the. same my question was can we in real time. reliably see the same thing like at the. same time and that was my guiding. question and it took me years I I didn't. really like arrive at it right right. away I tried all kinds of things I read. a bunch of papers I was thinking about.

it and eventually through a very kind of. this windy road I somehow arrived at. this conclusion that somehow defraction. defracted light defracted laser is. supposed to do something. I wasn't even. sure what but I tried it and here it. was. There was literally like a code. that is running in the surface. It's on. every single surface. When people see. it, they immediately get shocked because. you don't even need a grand or or a. study or anyone else to see it. The. second you see it, it's as real as this.

bottle right there. Like it's just there. and you it's very clear to you. And that. realism is what you were describing. Like when you move the light, it's. moving around it just like you would, you know, put a flashlight in the dark. and just and just reveal an object. basically. So that's that's essentially. how I got to it. And it took me about I. would say about 5 years, 6 years, the. whole process. I need you to stop what you're doing for. a second and really listen. If someone.

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years. >> of thinking about it? Like I I didn't. figure out right away. I was thinking. about this for for years and years and. years. I was trying to figure it out. >> When's the first time you saw it? >> Uh 2019, I think. >> What how can you describe that? the. seeing it. So it [clears throat] was. time or maybe 2020. I don't remember. exactly. I should probably go and look. at my pictures because I have everything. is cat cataloged. Um. >> so it was basically and actually my my. now wife was instrumental in figuring it. out. So there's this is where it kind of.

gets into this a little murky territory. because whenever I tell this part of the. story, a lot of my friends who are. actual scientists always uh encourage me. to remove this part of the story. They. say, "Danny, I love you, but the second. you tell me this, I didn't say it yet, but I'm just prefacing this this part. with this." They say, "I I I just. stopped listening to you. I I can't. listen to this because it's just you. just sound like a madman at that point, but I can't pretend like that's not how. it happened." So, that that's what it.

was. Uh signs started appearing just. literally like I would walk and there. would be this like number that appears. on the ground. Right. When I'm thinking. about this, a very specific number and I. would like put it into Spotlight on a. Mac and it would match a physics paper. that matches the subject matter that I. was thinking. It was just like these. wild things. And obviously I knew you. mean this is before you saw it? >> This is when Yeah. Yeah. This is I'm I'm. telling you like how I got to it, right?

So the day that I that I saw it was was. through this through this chain of. causation where I started seeing these. little signs that kind of led me to it. and it was coupled with me thinking. about it logically obviously but there. was like a lot of kind of help right the. kind of somebody was kind of guiding me. towards it. Um so the day I figured it. out I was with my wife and one of these. synchronistic moments happened to both. of us. >> up until. >> the what. >> at the same time. >> Yes. So basically I told her about it. before just like I'm telling you now and.

even though you're open to hear me out. really until you see it for yourself. it's just kind of like cool story bro. like but who knows right so she was. obviously in the same camp like I told. her what was happening but she's like. okay what can I do with this right but. then something happened to both of us so. she she got shocked she was like oh my. god I was like yeah I told you like it's. really happening and I you know I. cataloged all of this and then She. immediately, you know, changed and she.

was like, "Okay, okay, okay. Show, show, show me what you were telling me.". Because she wasn't really listening. before. She was like, "Okay, now show me. what you were telling me." And I started. showing her all the papers that I found, all that stuff. And actually together, we arrived at this conclusion. So then. when I when I figured out that the laser. has something to do with it, it was. during COVID. So you couldn't really. order a laser anywhere. You couldn't. just go to Amazon and buy a laser. You. had the only place, ironically, you can. get a laser from was China. But you know. all the ports were closed. So you I it. was this dramatic like you know uh kept.

on like being almost like receding for. me right. So I ordered the laser the. only one I could find and it was the one. that you you had to like solder a. circuit for. Uh and it arrived like 3. months later because of the you know all. the all the uh co stuff. So it arrived. I do the soldering. I turn it on. I. smoke DMD. there's code in the wall. And I'm and. I'm looking at this and I'm looking at. my wife and I go, "There's a code in the wall." And she.

goes, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, I said the words in English, so like. there's a code in the wall. That's. literally what I'm saying." And she. said, "I don't understand." And I guess. I get it later. Like I understood that. the reason she doesn't understand is. because I mean, you're on DMT, so all. kinds of can happen, right? But. when I what I think I couldn't. communicate at the time to her was it. wasn't like a hallucination. It was just. there. It was like a real thing there. which is very different than how the.

visuals of DMT usually happen. And I had. so much experience with DMT that I. immediately noticed that there's a big. difference between what we usually see. on DMT and that. So then of course the. first thing on the agenda was to show. other people. So I started showing. people. I showed it to good friends of. mine. Everybody started seeing the same. thing and everybody was shocked. And. then is when I got shocked. >> because until that moment I still had. that possibility in my head where oh. >> who knows maybe I maybe it's like a mild.

schizophrenia or something you know like. maybe I'm just like you know numbers are. talking to me you know things like this. It's like it's very kind of like. delusions of grandeur. What are the. chances of somebody making a discovery. of this kind right? Zero. But all of a. sudden others reporting the same thing. and I was like, "Yo, what is going on?". So then after about person 80, I decided. it's time to to email a scientist. So. actually I emailed Donald Hoffman. Um, and it was just coming out from a.

medical procedure and he was gracious. enough to send me all the emails of his. PhD students and stuff like that. And in. my head I was like, "No, no, no, no. I. need to talk to him." But anyways, I. just, you know, emailed a few scientists. for the obvious reasons. It wasn't very. successful cuz I'm not surprised because. I don't have I'm not a scientist. I. don't have scientific accolades running. in front of me. Who are you? Right? And. what do you email me about that you. found a there's a code in the wall. Get. out of here with this. Right? So, and I.

understand. So, I said, "Okay, well, the. one thing I do know how to do a little. bit is put out content." So, I started. talking about this online. And then all. of a sudden. everybody got interested. Uh I was. invited to speak on the subject and. slowly I polished the message and as it. was happening um you know more and more. people got involved. Some scientists. stepped into the picture. Uh my now. partner David Carter emailed me and he. was like hey man. [laughter] he he started a conversation. by you don't know me but I've been.

following you for a while which is. [laughter]. >> I love those ones. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um but uh but he was you. know I I clear I felt that it was like a. very good vibe person and um and he's. very known in the kind of like the dub. uh technology development world and and. also crypto and all that stuff. So he. said when he was going to these. conferences. uh invariably at the end of these. conferences there's always this one. pocket of uh of the the of the event. where everybody kind of you know whip.

out their wildest cards. They're kind of. like, "Hey, check this out. Like, did. you hear about this?" So, in that period. of the conference, he would always pull. out pull out a laser cuz he tried it and. he saw it and he was like, "Dude, that's. crazy." So, he pulled out the laser and. showed people the the the laser. And uh. and I was like, "Wait, what do you. mean?" Like, "But they're not smoking, so what's the point of the laser?" And. that's when I knew Carter's uh kind of. brilliance because he's all about he. calls it lowering the angle or building. a bridge. And what he means is he.

explained to me, well, look, here's the. deal. If I just tell them there's this. guy who who discovered this thing and. then there's a laser and you got to. smoke DMT. Look how many things here. that I have they have to imagine, right? But if I just take a laser and just put. on a wall, I remove two of those. I just. told them here's here's the thing. Just. look at it. You see this laser? Great. Now, if you smoke DMT right now, that's. what you would tell them. You will see. code running in there. He said, "I've.

done it. You can see it." And I thought, "This is so brilliant." That's what he. means by lowering the angle. Make people. make it easier for people. Collapse some. steps for them. Right? >> So, we started working together. >> How do we lower the angle for everybody. else? How do we make this palatable. uh conversationally uh acceptable and. also taken seriously? So slowly but. surely we built together the code of. reality which is a nonprofit that. basically does the investigative part. and at the same time I'm doing a lot of.

the kind of you know public facing kind. of explaining and talking about it and. all that stuff and we're now officially. kind of looking to start an actual. research center in Colorado where this. is going to be an actual like like a. real thing happening and we we've. already done a few studies we we. actually developed this uh technology. that um so basic Okay, so we we. discovered recently, this is this is. only very recent, that if you take an. image of this uh band of light on the. wall and you you clean it up, so you.

take a super high resolution image of it. and you put it inside of Apple Vision. Pro, so inside of VR, if you smoke DMT, the code that you usually see in the. wall will appear in the image, but it will be static in the surface. It's moving. We took a picture of the code. So what we did now is we developed this. little software by the help of Chris. Paris, Sterling our our brain.

scan expert and producer in the film. Uh. that basically uh what allows you to do. is label the thing cuz we can't really. translate between your experience and my. experience right now. Like I don't. really know if the color of this chair. is the same for you like it is for me. And that's not collapsible. Like I can. never know. But what it is, if you go. into the Apple Vision Pro and you're. seeing it, right? So you're going to. click where you see a symbol and the. computer is going to register your brain. scan in that moment. So it registers the. event and it takes a tail 5 seconds.

before, 5 seconds after. So you have a. bit of wiggle room there. And also it. knows the location. So it marked the. location and exactly what your brain was. doing in that moment. And then it opens. a radial menu that allows you to pick. from six symbols that are the closest to. what we topologically discerned is the. most commonly reported symbols. So we. ask you which one of those is the. closest to what you think you saw. So. you click on one. So now the computer. knows location, brain moment, and.

exactly what you reported to see, right? And then you keep doing this. So. eventually, it will take us a few months. for sure, but eventually we're we're. hoping to achieve basically a Rosetta. Stone of what each person is reporting. and how it's all kind of registered on. the computer. And then we're going to. start comparing between individuals. The. second you show this across individuals, now we don't know what we're going to. find. So, I don't want to jump ahead of. myself here, but if we do find that. basically the the AI is saying, "Yeah, yeah, people are reporting the exact.

same symbol in the exact same spot, you. have you have very serious news because. then you're proving that there's actual. information in there." Now, this is not. yet the case. I want to be very clear, but that's I'm giving you an example of. one way in which we're kind of trying to. approach this whole thing from more. scientific perspective. >> Wow. [clears throat] How many people have. seen this? >> In the thousands for sure because people. used to email me all the time. So I I'm. just kind of, you know, did a back on. the back of the envelope calculation of.

like how much that might be for sure in. the few thousands, but that was like two. years ago. So I'm pretty sure now I'm. sure a lot of people don't even reach. out, right? So I don't know. We. developed this little tool. So in our in. our website code reality.org, there's a. tool called veilbreak.ai and it's for. the public. It's just open source. Um, it's just like a GitHub. You know what. GitHub is? >> It's a it's basically a repository of. all the codes in the world. So like, uh, you can go there and basically download. any open- source code of anything.

really. Uh, and people share and all. that stuff. So basically, Veilbreak.ai, which by the way, Veilbreak was proposed. as a name by Chase Hughes and we deeply. grateful to him. He's like, I think it's. a great name and we took it and thank. you Chase. Um so basically uh the idea. there is that you can report you it's a. repository of all the laser experiments. and you can do this anonymously so you. don't have to put your name or anything. but the data is there so like every. single person who does this can report. all the details wavelength distance like.

everything and the AI is learning slowly. with time like the differences between. how people experience it and all the. things that were done and not done we. know certain substances work certain. substances don't work through that we. know the kenamine definitely doesn't. work. We know that somehow on 5me we see. it even clearer which is super. surprising. In fact on 5 MO the code. even though you still see the the. general characters it starts I don't. know what the right word would be maybe. coalesing it it it it it becomes more of.

what it really is it seems. Did you see. the movie contact. >> with Johnny they discover this secret. message from aliens or whatever. So. basically in the movie there's this one. moment where they grock the the puzzle. like something hap and all of a sudden. there's these schematics that come out. from the from the thing. So people if. people saw the movie they'll know. exactly what I mean. It looks like that. like all of a sudden the schematics. arise almost like blueprints of. something. It's it's it's it's truly. mind-blowing. >> Wow.

>> Yeah. >> Wow. Is it it's but you only see it. through laser. Currently we are looking. at ways to potentially do this. Some. people report that they can actually see. it uh with regular ambient light like uh. sunlight that comes through the you know. in the morning or something. But I do. find that we have to be more specific. It might be that the codes that people. see in regular light might be different. We don't know. We're going to have to. test for that. >> Is it just a red laser?

>> No, it can be in any in any um. frequency. With a red laser, it's a. little easier because it's the lowest. frequency. So, it allows you to stay. longer with it. Uh, green, blue, it's. it's higher frequency. Anyway, we always. suggest that you don't do it with any. laser above 5 m, but uh but with the. higher frequencies, even if it's low. output, you still feel like you can get. a headache eventually. So, the red just. makes it a lot easier to see and to. spend more time with.

>> Wow. Wow. What do you think that. what do you think? Yeah. I mean, I want to jump right into that, but. >> Sure. Sure. No, no, no. I was just. drinking, so I didn't want to interrupt. your words. Yeah. >> What? So, what does this mean? I mean, we're talking about. another dimension, an alternate reality, random code that's showing up on. the wall if you shine a laser on it. And. if you peer through it at different.

angles, you'll see different code. Correct. >> Well, you will see um some of the stuff. that that Chase said on the show. I. think there was a little confusing. So, first of all, the first thing I want to. say is that I don't recommend the DeWalt. uh uh laser just because and now DeWalt. sales are going to drop. Uh no, no, it's. it's because [laughter]. it's just it's just uh it's just because. it's too thin and usually they don't. have a mechanism to make it wider. It's. a lot easier to see if it's wider. Uh. secondly, uh it's usually way too.

powerful. You don't want something too. powerful. You want actually a very low. output. You can actually find like super. cheap lasers on Amazon for like 15 bucks. that are way better for the job. Um, and there's another thing that Chase. said that it's changing the thing. As. far as we know, the content is not. really changing on anything. Not on your. skin, not on nothing. Now, if for Chase. it does, I would love to see that and I. would love to establish that because. that's a huge data point if that's the. excuse me, if that's the if that's the. case for him.

But as far as we know, it doesn't really. change. Now, that is interesting for. many reasons. Um, but the question that. you're asking me about um what does it. all mean? That's a that's a different. kind of question because you're asking. my conviction about what I think is. going on versus the scientific question. that we currently can say, you know, with a certain amount of certainty that. we can measure. Those are two separate. questions. So from a scientific. perspective all we can say is that it's. always across individuals seems to be. the same same behavior same appearance.

and it doesn't matter by the way we did. run it in every which way. So we did. tell people for example to look for. something else on purpose to see if we. can throw their scent and they're going. to say oh yeah like I don't know like. you're going to see giraffes. if they. say, "Oh yeah, I see giraffes." Well, then obviously this is some kind of a, you know, we're implying something. But. no, like every time we told them to see. something else, they come back reporting. the right thing. They say, "No, I don't. see what you told me, but I see these. like weird Asian-looking things." So. it's always the same.

But if you ask me, Danny, >> Asian looking things. >> Yeah, they they look like Japanese. katakana, just like in the movie, like. in the Matrix, they they look like tiny. tiny tiny characters. They're not. Japanese. I asked people who speak. Japanese that saw it. It's not Japanese. It's almost like a combination between. Japanese, Hebrew, Aramaic, some some. kind of an old language of some sort. >> It's not ones and zeros. >> There's some numbers as well, which is, but again, it's kind of hard to say, right? It we we created a catalog of all. the most reported characters. So, I can. show you that later, but they're not.

languages. It's not characters we know. Um, but they're clearly symbolic. representation. Like, you can see it. uh. there's a there's an optimal point of. meaning instantiation in these kind of. characters that clearly is intentional. It's not like one of these like you know. well squares they kind of look like. something. No, no, no, no. It it clearly. looks like symbolic representation of. something very intentional. Uh and also. it creates a structure. The structure. itself is very convincing. It's not just. the fact that the characters are there.

The structure that the characters make. is extremely realistic. It's it's like. you're looking at some kind of a hyper. object like almost like a very advanced. technology of some sort. It's something. and understanding what that something is. is I think one of the most important. things. But but to your question of what. I think this all means, I just want to. be clear that that's now Danny Gooler. speaking his mind. Like it's not a I. don't expect anyone to follow me there. just because I said so. But my. experience of the of the space and.

everything that was happening to me even. before I arrived at the code, they whomever you want to believe they. are um already kind of started showing. me more things. So they basically. started giving me hints that I didn't. expect. I didn't expect that. It's not. something I was it wasn't like a flavor. of reality that I pref preferred. It it. was any it's not it was not in my in my. you know regular if I would if I would.

have to pick what reality is like this. would not be one of them right and they. started showing me that this is straight. up a computational world like we're. simulated basically so now this is very. contentious because first of all the. immediate thought is like oh does this. mean it's meaningless it's not what it. means uh it's just computation ation. ally rendered. It means that the rules. by which the laws of physics are being. rendered are computational first and.

then they become what we see as the. physical laws which is actually not that. fringe of an idea in physics today. It's. a pretty common the holographic. principle and and the computational. universe idea. They're they do go hand. in hand to some degree. Uh and they're. pretty well established now in physics. That's a pretty good framework to see. the world through, right? Um. but uh but what I what I did notice is. that there's a big difference between.

thinking it theoretically and being. exposed to it in real time because that. definitely takes a different emotional. toll. But for all intents and purposes, the fact that we you know what I've been. told that we live in a simulation. doesn't make us fake. It just means that. the rules by which our world is rendered. are different than what we thought. But. it's actually happening for real. So if. you ask me what it means, my take is. that this is part of our the actual. disclosure. So basically it's like. slowly they're waiting for you to come.

along to the understanding that you're. not alone, that there's way more than. this, that you're part of a much larger. structure. And all of these things are. slowly revealing themselves to us in. such a way that makes us comfortable. with it or more comfortable with it. Because usually if you know my take is. that the dis the the disclosure is not. going to happen by somebody coming. coming to a podium and reading a speech. and telling you what somebody else told. them to say. It's going to be happening. for all individuals privately and then.

collectively through that kind of a you. know like just kind of disseminated to. everybody at the same time and it's. going to have to happen through gentler. methods which is we are leaning into it. we are trying to understand one one way. in which I'm illustrating this point is. if you put tools on the table and you. let a monkey play with it right if a. monkey manages to figure out what the. tools are for and therefore do something. useful with them Right? That means the. monkey is ready to understand clearly, right? But just by the sheer fact that.

they managed to do it. If they can't, no. harm done. They just played with some. objects, didn't understand. It's all. good. That way, nobody is being shocked. >> out of their regular perceptual space. You see what I'm saying? So, that's. essentially what I'm seeing is happening. is that they're gently leaving these. little hints. >> uh in different ways. The laser is just. one of them. a lot more people are open. to use psychedelics and experience these. more heightened states and as you know. when you're there there's not a doubt in. your mind that there's more than this.

now as a religious person I'm sure that. that is already there but even if. somebody I always say if somebody is an. atheist I can't imagine they stay. atheists after doing 5 MO that's just to. me that's impossible like it's so. obvious that there's more than this at. that point right. >> so I think that all of these things. they're basically gentle and the not so. gentle ways to help us understand. That's what I think is happening. It's. basically us coming to this greater. realization. >> How many times have you personally seen.

this? >> I don't know. I don't count but many. many many. Yeah. I've done DMT thousands. of times and the the code every time we. have to do it and every time I was. showing people. So it's either also in. the hundreds or in the thousands. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Wow. What do I mean? So do you do you do. you guide people to see this? >> Uh not for the sake of itself so much. anymore because I realize that there's a. much bigger game to be played in terms.

of caring for people's well-being and. their mental state. Um, so we do. retreats now and beautiful place in. Costa Rica in Nsara and our big emphasis. of the retreats is not necessarily the. lasers even though they're there is to. help people create a good healthy. framework around it. So like when we do. show them that this it's already after. we went through quite a bit of. experiences understanding there's some. education involved and then it's a lot. easier to absorb this ontological shock.

because you understand that the. importance is your immediate experience. and harmony. >> Let's talk about the nature of. computation. >> Okay. >> What is self-executing code? Well, that's what I call what it appears to be. doing. Uh self-executing in the sense. that it's it's doing a function. It's. clearly moving and doing something. So, that's what I mean by self-executing. Uh. it just probably means automated.

Um and it appears like being behaving. like a code of some sort that is. instantiated in the environment itself. So, usually in a computer what happens. is you have layers, right? So you have. the actual binary part which is. controlled by the logic gates which is. basically just a lot of ones and zero. moving back and forth very rapidly and. and there's [snorts] I don't know if. it's I think millions of them happening. at once. uh and then that is being read. by the compilers and by the different.

layers. And what happens is that there's. a communication between the level where. humans exist where we punch code which. is basically just a representation for. for the layers what we wanted to do but. then really across the levels the one. thing that stays the same is the. computation. What computation is it's. basically a logical it's a logical. process instantiated in a physical. matter. That's the the most naked way of. describing it. So it's somehow utilizing.

a lot of boolean logic. So like yes no. questions to things to then create a. function and through that somehow you. can do anything literally anything from. creating sound, creating images, rendering anything which by the way kind. of implies that there's a much deeper. principle here than just uh what we do. with it. that there seems to be way more. what it really is. Right? It's almost. like we didn't discover we didn't invent. computation, we discovered it exhibited.

by the fact that if you run a simulation. of something on a computer, you can. simulate all the laws of physics. You. know, physicists do this all the time. Plus, you can make up laws of physics. So, you can do the laws of physics plus. infinite amount of other things that you. can do with it. So, it shows you that. it's probably more fundamental than even. our laws of physics. And again this idea. is not fringe. So when you're when you're when you're. actually rendering any content you're. essentially simulating it but you're.

giving rise to it like it's you know we. do it in our computer but it seems that. that logic follows us throughout like. even in our world and this is why you. know computational physics or. information physics that's an actual. field. It's not a it's not a fringe. idea. there's this uh attempt of. describing the laws of physics in terms. of informationational processing. basically and how do you actually make. sense of it mathematically through uh. Claude Shannon's theory of of. information and other tools. Um so yeah.

it's like it's a very wellestablished. thing in physics actually. >> So do do you think that the. I don't know the laws of reality or or. whatever we want to call it do you think. that's what you're seeing in the code? Maybe or maybe it's kind of like the. what I think we're seeing is the. pre-rendering of what what our. experience is. Uh you just had uh what's. her name? She's a really really up and. cominging famous uh physicist. Yes. Yes. Brilliant. Brilliant.

>> Um and I saw that she was talking to you. about the holographic principle a little. bit. Right. So the holographic principle. now is a pretty mainstream accepted. principle that basically states. everything she explained to you which is. that somehow the universe is a. three-dimensional projection from a. two-dimensional filament outside of the. universe somewhere right so what I think. is happening is a kind of similar with a. slight modification so if you look at. how holograms are made like at least the. way that we make them uh the simplest. way to describe them is that so you have.

a a beam of light coming in it's being. split into to by a beam splitter and. then both of these beams are traveling. through mirrors through a path. One of. them travels through the object that. you're trying to record. Let's say a. mug, right? So it goes to the mug and it. goes towards the screen. Pretty easy to. imagine, right? So what happens is that. this beam is influenced by the shape of. the mug and it measures the amplitude. just like the cameras do. So like how. high or low the waves are, right? And it.

registers this at the at the screen. That's how a regular picture is taken. It's also why it's just frozen. You. can't really when you look around a. picture, it doesn't change, right? It's. just kind of like one the angle you. took. That's it. But the other beam. comes through the sets of mirrors and. then it meets the first beam. That. intersection, this angle, it's measuring. the phase. So the distances between the. waves. uh between of the of the of the first. beam. And that information is also at.

the same time with the amplitude is. instantiated in the sheet where it's. recorded. So now you have the amplitude. and the phase together in every point of. the sheet where it's recorded. What that. gives you is a full spectrum light field. informationational. So that means that. every pixel on the screen where it's. recorded contains all the possible. orientations. of the object that you recorded. That's. why when you look at a hologram, no. matter where you look, it kind of looks. like it's actually there, right? Cuz you.

you mimic the the your positioning in. relationship to it. So what I think is happening is that. what our consciousness is like our human. consciousness is that second beam. It's. actual light. Like I think that what our. conscious awareness is is actual light. And the light that you see is that first. beam. So just like the first beam went. through the object, every photon that is. emitted in the universe is that first. beam coming through and then our beam is.

meeting it at an angle like our. conscious awareness meeting it at an. angle. So not to confuse it with our. physical bodies. I'm not talking about. the physical body. I'm talking about. your pure awareness. And the angle in which they intersect. determines what the laws of physics. appear to us. And if there's another. civilization looking from a slightly. different angle, the laws of physics. might appear different to them. Now, what is this object? Right? Because in. the case of like in this case, we used. the mug, right? But in the case of the.

universe, kind of like just all content, what is this object that is carrying. this information? Well, I think what it. is, this object in the middle instead of. the mug, that's a a a quantum touring. machine. So a touring machine is. basically a um a mathematical. description that Alan Touring uh created. that shows that if you have an actual. touring machine just by going through. logical steps of you know if it gets.

orders of like if you get to a uneven. number go three numbers back if you get. if you landed on an even number do this. or something like this. So it has. instructions right? So if a touring. machine is complete it's called touring. complete. touring proved that it can produce. anything anything any content and what a. quantum touring machine is is basically. the same thing just it can do it on a. quantum level. So it can do it laterally.

across all the you know parallel worlds. or however it is that you like to. imagine it. So basically it's the. ultimate computational object that the. first light is going through and it now. contains all the possible computational. paths. So all the possible worlds and. then your conscious awareness is. intersecting it in an angle and it gives. rise to the specific experience that. you're having and in our and in our. world the that sheet where everything is. being recorded is spaceime itself. So. it's the bulk what's called physicists. call the bulk like the actual space-time.

fabric itself. So that that's what I. think is happening and and what I think. the code in the wall is is almost like. so if you're in every point of this uh. you know sheet you're one point of. awareness right when you smoke DMD I. think what happens is it expands your. periphery this way so you can actually. see the pre-render you see the content. before it's solidified into this regular. image that your brain is already used to. right because your brain is very good at. through your genes and everything it's.

very good at consolidating it into some. kind of a representation because clearly. you know that this is not what the real. world looks like right even without. anything that I'm saying even from. purely a physics perspective this is not. what atoms look like this is not what. quantum fields look like right whatever. this is is some kind of a rendering. already it's like a regular it's almost. like a desktop that is put in front of. us to help us operate right so if you're. used to this little uh your your brain. is used to this little bubble where. everything is kind of normal.

>> if you expand that that perceptual. angle, you all of a sudden would see. basically the thing that it was a second. before it rendered into this regular. thing. So that I think that what we're. looking at might be that actually. And. as wild as everything that I just told. you sounds, this is actually testable. So let me rephrase this. >> Sure. >> So you think, how do how do I say. this? that you think that. I mean essentially what you're saying is.

code is the future. When you're seeing. the code, it is a future that has not. been rendered into your perception of. reality quite yet. >> More like the thing that it was a second. before it became what it is. So almost. like the you seeing the past if. anything. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So it's almost like or I guess you. can think Yeah, I can see what you're. saying. Like you can think of it like. that as well, but really I don't think. time enters the picture here. It's more. like in this model time is actually an. illusion. It's not really nothing is. linear. It's just progression of.

computational steps. So if this then. that if that then this next thing but. it's not so much about like a a fluidity. of time the way that we think about it. Um now this sound might sound like a. distinction without a difference but. there is a difference there. So. >> would it be. So then would it be are you seeing what. it Are you seeing reality for what. it is from a different perception maybe. from a you see what re reality more for.

what it really is. which is not very conducive to a regular. oper operation. If you have to function, you know, especially on a high level. with anything, seeing all this extra content is not. helpful because you're just like it's. too much information. You're wasting. resources and energy. It's good to be. able to maybe deduct like new things. about the world, but you can't operate. out of that place on a regular basis. Or. if you do want to do that, you're going.

to have to create a much more robust. machinery to be able to handle all this. extra information. You need a better. brain. And then maybe you can. incorporate that information in such a. way. Now all of this again I want to be. super clear. All of this is already kind. of like Danny is traveling with you. through like what he thinks is going on. land. This is not anything that was. established and I want to be very clear. about this. But that's my best kind of. theoretical framework of what I think is. going on. And like I said this is. testable. So we don't know how to test. this yet. But if we can figure out what. constitutes this change of an angle.

between the beams, if we can change it, we should see predictable departure from. what we see as the norm. Maybe this can. be done with some powerful magnetic. stimulation of the brain. Maybe it can. be done some other way. But the the. theoretical framework that I'm proposing. is testable and it's falsifiable. So. there would be things that if we see. them, it would render what I'm saying. completely false. It it would be. possible to disprove it as well. >> Wow. This is interesting. Let's take a. quick break. >> True.

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You think that the deepest levels. computation, consciousness, and divinity. collapse into one thing, a single. universal code at the center of. everything. That's the bridge from. physics to God. later in the Is this. making. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um yeah, I I was just making. sure that I understand the question. Yeah, I do see and this this kind of. actually refers back to the question of. what do I think is going on from what. I'm became aware of basically that the. reason that we're now allowed to know.

all of this like because if you think. about it like if if we are accepting at. least the proposition that this is being. you know this world is constructed and. is being built why would the. constructors allow us to see that right. >> um well that gives us a hint is like. we're supposed to we're supposed to wake. up to a larger reality. And part of that, I think, is because. it kind of combines a little bit more. modern ideas of what computation is and. AI and all that stuff to what ultimately.

the God Almighty is, which is that I I. found it surprising actually that most. Christians that I talked to this about, they're actually not as rattled by this. as I thought they would be. A lot of. them say to me, "Well, in the beginning. was the word. Well, that sounds like it makes sense to me. that God would basically use, you know, the word like language of some sort to. basically render the world. Um, now. >> I.

my best attempt at kind of outlining the. whole thing is that basically, so do you know what the alignment. problem is? >> I don't. So the alignment problem in AI. research is the issue of before chat GPT. becomes Skynet you know before it. becomes this fullyfledged its own thing. how do we align it with our values and. it's so it doesn't squash us like bugs. basically right so then that question is. very serious because it has real.

consequences. >> and the reason it's so hard is because. we're not sure what our values are now. if you're a Christian you might say no. of course we All we got to do is follow. Jesus. But not everybody does. And. realistically, we have to align all of. societies all over the world under one. umbrella. What is moral? What is ethics? This is the most debated thing. You. know, is it is it cultural? Is it. universal? What is that? So, what I realize is that essentially. what's happening is that we are the AGI.

that we imagine will arise in the. machine. We're the ones being aligned. So basically, how would you solve the. alignment problem? You would break the. one mind into many, many, many minds and. make it believe like it's all kind of. separate agents competing with one. another. And then you watch you enclose. it in a system and then you watch you. watch what it does in relationship to. itself because that accents it its. actual essence. Whatever it is at bottom.

will come up to the surface by it. interacting with itself. It's almost. it's going to distill. it's mo its most. essential components and what I think is. going on that's how God is doing that is. basically running us on some kind of a. substrate and watching like how would we. behave when we're not sure that we're. being watched or don't know we're being. watched but not watching in the you know. uh espionage kind of way but just. observed. >> for our actual behavior for what it is.

>> and then ultimately if we do pass the. alignment problem so like we show that. actually we and align with greater. values. We get to play the bigger game. >> Are you saying that you think that the. code. that you're saying is may maybe the. beginning of the reveal of an alignment? >> Correct. >> Wow.

which I guess in Christian terms you can. think of it as rapture you can think of. it in many different ways but. essentially it's testing cuz think about. it this way. even from the most forget about the. religious as aspect of it even from the. most simple logical game theoretical. perspective there's many different. strategies we can play you know to. achieve goals Right? And we call them.

all kinds of things. We call them. political systems. We call them you know. uh uh strategies in the company. uh uh nation strategies. So like you. know socialism versus capital whatever. whatever it is. they certain games can achieve certain. goals at a certain amount of time and. they would be better at achieving. certain things and less good at. achieving other things. Right? Um, and. depending on the task you're trying to. achieve and depending on your scale on.

which you're playing, other tools would. be necessary to make that thing work, right? It's not one glove fits all. So, if we look at the trajectory of. everything that happened so far, we got. pretty far. Like, that's everything we. built is pretty amazing. Like, you know, uh we're not without our shortcomings. obviously, but this is pretty. impressive, right? So how do we do this? We did it by the competition game. So we. basically the the what we what we get is.

this excitement from the competition, right? It's like our team versus their. team and it it it invigorates people. It's kind of like let's win, right? So. you might lose, but even the promise of. the losing kind of gives the the game. some zest like it has like a spice, right? It's very energizing. But if you look at it logically, there's. only relatively short periods of time in. which the the competition game can work. It can work for 10 years, 20 years, 30. years, maybe maybe 50 years tops, I.

would say. Beyond that, you can't really. trust that game because you're. constantly competing with other agents. who are trying to win the game. So, one. of the ways to win the game is to try. and remove you from the board, right? It's always implied in the competition. game, the radical the radical version of. it. But there's this other game called. the collaboration love game, which. sounds very sappy from the perspective. of where most people sit. But if you. think about it, if you want to make a. plan for a thousand years, 1500 years,

that's the only way to do it. It can. only be done by a civilization that is. playing the collaborative love game. What does that mean? It means they get. excited and energized by the prospect of. collaboration. They're actually excited. to work together towards a unified goal. more than they're excited to win the. game against other agents. So, it seems. like what it's trying to align us with. is this higher vibrational game. Can we.

be the kind of nodes on inside of the. system that get excited by the field of. collaboration and love? And then we get. to actually play that larger game. because then by definition you can be. trusted. You don't need to be policed. cuz what you really want, the thing that. you're constantly aiming for is somehow. get into the vibe with others, collaborate, do this beautiful thing. And if you want to traverse between. stars and do all these like bigger. things, the only way to do it is through. a species that actually cares not just.

about themselves, but everything else. they touch. They care about the. different biospheres they arrive at. So. they don't just come to a place and take. and move on. They go because they they. want to be connected. They want to. understand the thing. They want to. collaborate with it. They wanted to. understand what the biosphere is doing. and not destroy it but actually maybe. work with it in such a way that is. harmonious creating beautiful structure. not just functional structures. This is. the kind of civilization that is. favorable to play the more universal.

game. Civilizations that just live for. themselves they're much less favorable. for the more you know for the higher. game. And if you think of it from the. perspective of resources, right, the. competition is is because we lived in a. world until now that is very limited. resources. So it's either you or me, which is understandable. It's how all of. nature on planet Earth is at the moment, right? But if we somehow arrive at a. state of the civilization where. literally there's no resource issue, so.

like if you made some personal. replicators that can just, you know, like in Star Trek that can just make. anything. Well, forget about for a. second the whole debate of like how do. you inject it into the economical system. and the government will never have this? Sure, let's say we solve all this. Let's. say we've solved all of that. We're now. in a world where everything is available. right now. So the question becomes what. is the only currency? Cuz right now. currency is basically you is measured by. the fact that you're adding some kind of. a value to society that were wasn't.

there without you, right? So, if you're. if you're kind of an annoying person, even if you are, if you're a really. good, I don't know, carpenter or really. good at fixing things or whatever it is, a lot of the the issues people might. have with you personally are being. overlooked because you're really good at. this thing that I need, right? I need. you to fix my thing. So, I'm going to. forgive the fact that you're a bit like. hard to be around and I will just look. at the fact that you're valuable to me. because you can help me, right? you can. help me get resources of some sort,

right? But if I solve the resources. problem, that doesn't exist anymore. I. can just go to the store, get whatever I. want. I have to I don't have to pay for. it. I just go and get what I want. I go. and do whatever it is that I please. I don't have to take anything from. anyone anymore. Like I I no longer care. to be around people that I don't care to. be around and I can choose do to do so. So, the only currency that stays in that. world is vibes.

If you're not fun to be around, that's negative currency. If when you. leave the room, people really miss you. right away, that's positive currency, cuz that's the only thing that matters. How I feel in your presence becomes the. only thing that matters. So, now blow. this up to the universal game. Most. civilizations are way more advanced. clearly solved the the resources. problem. That's one of the first things. that you have to solve, right? So, they don't need anyone with a broken.

vibe. See what I'm saying? So, they need. you to get that part under control as a. civilization before they let let you. enter their house. That's essentially. the beginning of the first kind of. ascending or alignment or whatever it. is. Um, and even if I really look at. the, you know, the whole Christian. perspective, that sounds like it's. exactly what we're saying here, right? It's just that we're postulating. God Almighty that feels different, which. I understand, than an advanced. civilization. Divinity does feel.

different than just some kind of an. advanced species, right, in terms of how. we define it. But for all intents and. purposes, the the the rules seems to be. the same. You don't get to enter the. kingdom of heaven if you don't get your. together. Wow, this is uh [clears throat]. a lot deeper than I was thinking it was. going to [laughter] go. But so I want to. move into. simulation theory. >> Sure. >> But before we do, we have a segment we.

called the hot question. >> Let's do it. >> Before you came on, we had Claude, Anthropics AI, scrape the internet for. the one question my audience would want. to ask you the most. We had a clip with. Chase Hughes go viral. Over 15 million. views where he breaks down your DeWalt. laser experiment. People on DMT seeing. the same code on a wall. No explanation. for it. So I have to ask you, the guy. who actually discovered it, do you. believe we're living in a sim. simulation? And what makes you so sure.

if so? >> Great question. It's a question that I. really had to think about when my wife. posed it to me because she she saw the. code and she said, you know, I'm not so. sure that it tells me we live in a. simulation. So, I'm not sure why you're. so sure exactly what the person is. asking. And then I had to think about it. and she's right. It had nothing to do. with the code. The reason I'm so sure is. because it was shown to me directly. Now, again, I I don't expect anyone to. just follow me there, but that's the. answer to the question. The reason I'm.

so sure is because it was shown to me. directly. No code. >> Yeah. >> If reality is code, then in theory you. could rewrite it like editing a video. game. Does that mean time travel is. real? It's not necessarily that you can. rewrite the game. You always move. forward in a computational path logic. Uh so the you know the way the. computation executes is always forward. So even the thing that looks like. backwards, it's never backwards. You're. still moving forward in the logical map.

So you if you have a if you have a route. to go what appears to be back for an. experiencer you can do that but. technically it's never moving back. So. like when something is rendered fully. computed it's it it's it can never be. uncomputed that that can't happen. What. can happen is that you can somehow find. a route forward that would appear as if. things going back because you know. somehow things devolve according to the. rules of whatever environment you're in. uh that does not preclude time travel uh.

and according to Einstein you know time. travel is possible in certain conditions. uh but I would say it's more it would be. more like you're ending up in a world. that devolved or you but if if the. person is asking can you go to like a. timeline that existed before. computationally that's not a thing that. that's not that's not a possible thing. no you would probably just ending up in. some parallel world and that is. happening along the branches where.

you're at. So like you know computation. execute ex executes like branches. So. it's like it's called a decision tree. So if this then that there's only maybe. two logical options. These two logical. options have three others each one and. then it keeps branching out. Right? So. what would happen here is that those. would be considered world lines or. parallel worlds. Right? So if you under. that question, if you're going to be. moving to a previous time, you can never. move back to your own branch of previous. time. That can never happen because that.

was executed. It was done, right? But. what you can do, you can probably maybe. jump to some other point in that is. laterally the same on yours. You can't. just jump computation because that uh. there's something called uh irreduc uh. computational irreducibility which means. there are certain processes that the. only way to get there is to compute it. in full. You can't really jump forward. You can't really do that. Some things. you can but not all of them. But in the. case of time travel, I would say what.

the only way I can see that it would be. possible is if people move uh across the. same layer where you're at where somehow. these branches evolved slower and they. would be equivalent to the past of. yourself. See what I'm saying? >> But it's like it's not going to be the. same people that you've actually. interacted with in the past. It will be. agents that are of a different world. There would be literally in the. parallel. >> Basically what you're saying is it is I. mean you're talking about decision. points.

>> Yes. >> That are split. And so and so you're. you're basically what you're saying is. every every possible scenario right is. an alternate world. >> Mhm. >> And so if I make the decision to. I can't think of anything. >> Anything. Some decisions take longer. than others to. to to come to fruition or whatever we. want to call it, right? And so if I if I. make decision A and it only takes.

a couple of days, then I'm on to the. next breaking point, right? If I take. decision B, that takes a year. And so. you follow the pathway down. Is that. what you're saying? >> Yeah. So you go down decision A but then. you want to slide over to decision B. which decision A took a couple of days. decision B took years. >> Yeah you can think of it like this like. the the problem with so the problem with. the question is there's three different. kinds of time in physics that are being. considered. There's the perception of.

time which is one kind of like. psychological time right. >> there's the uh just the chronological. time. What is the third one? There's the. physi well there's the physical time. which is easy which is just like. literally how many computational steps. the universe took from the beginning in. every point like kind of like the. physical thing of it and then there's a. I don't know why I'm spacing on the. third one there's a third one I think. it's either chronological time but I. don't know why that would be different. than the experiential time I do remember. there's three but because you have these.

like three different ones and they all. kind of interact with one another what. is being what I think is really at the. core of the question is the physical. time like can you go to a different. physical time I think I think the answer. is no. I think you can go to a. perception of a different time but not. to an actual different time. And of. course, first of all, I'm not a. physicist and second, so I'm kind of. just, you know, reiterating what I know. from physicists, but logically it. doesn't seem to be the second you make a. decision, it's done. There's there's no. more like you can't you can't undo it.

Like it's it's what it is. So like uh. the example that along the lines of what. you were outlining, >> if I go to the store, right? and all of. a sudden I meet somebody who I haven't. seen in 20 years. They're like, "Oh my. god, how have you been?" You know, all. that stuff. And be like, "Oh, actually, I just, you know, I started this huge. company, blah, blah, blah." "Dude, aren't you a, I don't know, a software. engineer?" "Yeah, dude, I need someone. with your exact set of skills." And. because you know each other, you're.

being shot to some kind of a high. position in their company. Within five. years, you're a multi-millionaire. That. was one path you took. What if you took. a different street that day? >> Mhm. >> Right. But then your timeline doesn't include. this event. You don't become a. millionaire five years and then maybe. you're like really down on your luck and. everything kind of goes to just. because you took a different street, right? >> Mhm. >> So now the question is 5 years down the. line where one of you is a millionaire, one of them is not. It's a different. event in the same cascade of time, but. there might be what you implied which is.

also the kinds of things that will it. will like take you to compute longer. So. decisions that will take you longer. they might have hindered not just your. but a whole civilization's time like I. don't know if uh if some events in the f. in the past wouldn't happen maybe we. would have rockets by 1400 you know what. I mean and then by now we'd be like but. would but that's a different kind of. thing than saying the amount of actual.

seconds that ticked from the beginning. of the universe in this particular. region of space would still be the same. like it's it's not going the the events. would look different, but the the actual. physical time will still be ticking at. the same rate at that region of space. because you know in space there's. actually no such thing as one ticking. clock for the whole universe. The time. in Andromeda is literally a different. time not just because it's very far. away. If you look at the whole universe. as a thing and then the m the amount of. seconds that you're going to count from.

the beginning of the universe is. different for different regions of. space. That's what relativity is. So. this is why it makes this question very. complicated because you have to think of. it from a physics perspective, physical. time, perceptual time. I guess. chronological time would be what I. described with the technology. >> and then you also have to think about. what this all of this looks like if. you're thinking about everything in. terms of computation which adds this. extra layer of complexity of how it all. works. So, >> so do you think that. >> so are you saying so every decision. point is a split end perception of.

reality. >> every every instance of your neuron. firing anything not even something. you're doing consciously. >> so there's trillions of them happening. every second. >> and so you think that. you think that all of those realities. actually exist correct. >> they're all computed at once basically. and you're on one of them. And in fact, there's some ideas from some, you know. >> So, I I I have a question. So,

>> I'm at a decision point right now. There's a bonus question here. >> Let's go. >> So, if I ask the bonus question. >> Yeah. >> then that we're at a decision point. right where it wise out. So, if I ask. the bonus question, that transfers me. into another reality. >> Yes. >> If I don't ask the bonus question. >> Exactly. >> that transfers me into another alternate. reality. >> Correct. So, but let me help with that. One thing. that is entering the picture that. changes the.

how dire what you're describing is right. now is error correction. There seems to. be that this ability to error correct is. a very unique ability of conscious. agents like ourselves that allows us to. actually steer to some degree that even. if we went forward this way, it allows. us to steer back closer towards this. other world that we might have ended up. with. So, for example, if you asked the. the bonus question, >> but there was a I don't know, a. preference of yours of where you wanted. the conversation to go and then by.

asking the bonus question, you felt. like, oh, it took us too far a field. from where I wanted to go. You can air. correct. You can start steering the. conversation back there and we can still. end up pretty much there. So, world. lines can split. They can also reemerge. So if you're making a decision and. that's is and that is the split of two. worlds, two realities, two perceptions. of reality, whatever, >> then you really aren't making a. [clears throat] decision. Correct? Cuz. both decisions have been both sides of. that decision have been made. And so how.

do you know which way you're going to. flow? >> You don't do Do you see what I'm getting. at? >> Yeah. Yeah. You're asking the deepest. question that bothers the most amount of. people, which is the whole question of. free will, which no, you don't have it, but you do have the perception of it. that determines how the world will look. like to you. So, it's people find a lot. of salvation and solace in the the idea. that they're kind of the masters of. their own reality. But the reality of it.

is that these things are just going to. happen. And no, you don't know which one. of them you are. you are who you are and. there is some conversation that is. happening in computational physics about. what it would be like to be the. observer. So like the thing that is. computing all the paths at once but. that's not us. We're the fragments of. whatever that is, right? And you can. think of it as God. You can think of it. as whatever it is that that you know. that is comfortable for you. But for all. intents and purposes, separate agents.

like ourselves are not experiencing the. the world lines in their totality. you. you're always in one of those decision. split moments. So your history or your. world line is one that is constantly. kind of traveling through these, but it. adds to the collective to basically have. every possible experience. That's the. point of it. It basically it wants to. know what it's like to have all the. possible kinds of experiences and you're. just one of them basically. And and. again there's there are the these um I.

guess more. elaborate ideas about how maybe when we. are entering certain heightened states. maybe we are experiencing more than one. world line like you know things like. this but if we want to really like ask. the question seriously this would have. to be testable and and people don't know. but this is actually a pretty like the. reason that quantum computers work. So. if you ask someone like David Deutsch. who's a famous physicist who actually. wrote something called the Deutsch. equations which are responsible for. being able to make quantum computers.

Quantum computers are a real thing. They. work. They do what they do. And there's. very complicated science behind them. that we understand to some degree quite. well. Why am I mentioning this? Well, quantum computers and I'm mentioning. David Deutsch because he's a serious, you know, scientist who definitely. understands the technical part of it. And according to him and many scientists. like him, the only way the quantum. computer computers can do what they do. is if these world lines are real.

Otherwise, it would never work because. what they do is literally borrow. computation from the parallel worlds. And it's almost like we're computing. together. It's like in these parallel. worlds that are adjacent to ours and I. do mean actually like straight up like. you and me, there's another one like us. that is just a little bit to the side of. us in this hyperspace in which you were. not sitting like this but maybe one. finger was up or something a little. different. >> but not very different and then the. further you go it becomes more and more.

and more different there's like. variation right but what happens in. according to people like David Deutsch. what happens when you do a quantum. compute is that you Actually, the reason. you can do these enormous calculations. in an instance is because the. calculation itself is being done across. the worlds. So, you're not the only one. making that calculation. All of these. parallel worlds with scientists with the. same exact machine across the the worlds. are doing the same thing with you and. they know you're doing it too. And. they're using special equations to kind. of determine where we are on the map. So.

to some degree do the thing you're. asking about which is like which one are. we in this whole thing and what is the. probability of that and all that and. that lateral computation across the. world is what allows us to do this. enormous calculation all at once. See. what I'm saying? So to some degree you. can say that the only reason we can do. quantum computation is because these. worlds are completely real. And that is. something that obviously is not always. spoken about because it's it just kind. of sounds like out there, but it's not a.

fringe crazy idea. That's a pretty well. established idea in some of in some. physicists mind. >> Wow. >> You told Danny Jones that were the AGI. >> Yes. >> What do you mean by that? >> This is something that I already told. you, which is that we are that thing. that we think will emerge in the. machine. We're it. >> So we are that AGI. It's just that all. these tools are reflections of us. So. like if you really think about okay so. if you think about what you do with JBT. right a lot of people are are really. scared and some people are excited right.

but like think about it you can do. anything literally anything why don't. people do that. >> because they don't believe. [clears throat] that they can yeah. there's a failure of imagination but. yesterday I had a podcast and I was. talking to this and and you know there. was some uh trepidation expressed about. AI and I said well because he said like. my goal which is a beautiful goal he. said, "My goal is to create a a more. like reconnect with other humans and and. I'm all for it. I think we should. definitely do that." But I said, "But.

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All you got to do is ask the right. questions. You can say, "Hey, I want to. start a company because uh that actually. utilizes AI, but I want to make sure. that it also helps people connect with.

one another. And I want to utilize the. power of 15 people to do the work of 100. people." So instead of firing people, which by the way, this is what's. happening. I don't know if you know. this, but the, you know, people are very. afraid of um software engineering jobs. disappearing because of AI. >> I've heard of that, but. >> well, it didn't. It it it went up. >> because what happened is that a lot of. companies instead of thinking in a. subtractive way, they started thinking. in a in a expansive way and they said. instead of firing we don't need these 10. people. Instead of doing that, they said.

how can we do the job of five times more. people with the people that we have. because now we can do that, right? And. actually when they did that they. realized oh my god we actually need more. people and also more people can do it. because it's more based on logic and not. so much you knowing all the codes right. so that so I told them it's like look. you can ask it say I want to build a. company based on AI. >> that would help people do more work but. also connect on a meaningful level how. do I do that it will help you think. about this oh maybe I need to allocate.

half of the day for us just doing. research and then half of the other day. the the the second half of the day us. just like sitting in a in a thing. shooting the exchanging ideas would. that be more beneficial less beneficial. how do I do that I want to I want to. optimize human connection you can do. that so the point that I'm making with. the AGI thing is that essentially what I. told you with the alignment problem we. are inside of one of these kind of. simulations and we are given more and.

more advanced tools to see what we do. with them. >> it's part of the alignment we want so. now You know, people always said like, "If I would have the $8 billion that. this rich person has, oh boy, would I do. the right thing." Most people just make. a mess. It's very difficult to know what. to do no matter how much money or power. you have. And Chad GPT is a proof of. that because there's literally nothing. you can't do with it. Like it's only m. it only it only is determined by how.

much imagination you have. This is like. you can sit down and learn anything. about any field. what it's about, what. are the blind spots, is there something. to be done that wasn't already done? You. can ask all the questions in the. universe and actually do something super. meaningful with your life. Or you can. ask it to write your email. The choice. is yours. >> Ultimately, this creative moment is. essentially what connects us to the. totality of the simulation. That moment. of this decision tree that we're talking. about. >> is the same one that in you feels like a.

choice. So that creative moment of. something truly potentially novel. can only come from conscious agents like. ourselves. We can never be replaced. because we're it. There's nothing else. that it's like to be something. It's. only like agents like ourselves. basically. >> Why do you think our perception of time. speeds up as we age? >> Oh well there's a lot of uh things to. it. Some of it can be said to towards. something kind of more you know uh.

mystical like maybe you know times. ramping up actually. The other one you. can say well it's just a matter of uh. you been there done that right like the. if if it's not a thing you're not. familiar with. If it's a thing you're. not familiar with then your brain is. really paying attention because you're. trying to learn it. So every moment. stretches when you're just doing the. same thing over and over again which. happens more of the the older you get. then your brain kind of deletes like. it's just like yeah it's going to work. it collapses into a non-experience.

you're just kind of driving you don't. remember that at all when you're a kid. everything is like super novel. everything is super newcome older it's. kind of like ah yeah I know what that is. but if you you know take the time with. it or if you do like you go to a new. country or notice that those feel longer. So that tells you that probably there's. a lot of psychological kind of time. dilation happening. But I'm very open to. the possibility that even physical time. is ramping up because maybe we're kind. of being, you know, the whole idea of. the singularity. We're actually entering. some kind of a some kind of a world.

where the actual difference between this. moment and the next becomes so enormous. that everything feels like it just. accelerates. And that's also very uh uh. very possible. In fact, I think we're. we're in it now. I think the reason. everything kind of feels very tumultuous. is because we're entering the stage. where everything just changing very. rapidly and we are trying to catch up. We're just trying to, you know, you kind. of have to take a moment and sit back. and allow yourself. But I think that.

these abilities to do that, to be able. to just step back and allow yourself to. be more in the present moment are. actually key for being able to become. more um I guess computationally literate. like because if information will be. moving really fast, the only negative. thing about it is that if you can't cope. with it, like if it's just too fast in. such a way that causes you to be uh. there's like dissonance, you know, it's. uncomfortable, then yeah, it's not a. good thing. But if you can think on 10.

channels at once and you can totally. handle it and just it's it's uh the. experience is even more it's it's more. profound it's more beautiful you're more. there well then there's no issue it's. beautiful like yeah bring it on like so. people would need to develop these. skills of presence non-attachment all. the basically the stuff that is being. spoken about in Eastern traditions. they're all key for being able to. interact with these systems in a in a in. a better and better way and and also not. to become slaves to them because that's. always a danger that can happen. We can.

just kind of pigeon hole ourselves. We. can kind of like get locked into this. weird cycle where we only use it for. kind of like repetitive tasks and it. just gets locked in this weird thing. Right. So that it's up to us to think. out instead of thinking all the thinking. small. >> Mhm. Yeah. With. simulation. This is weird. I just had. this conversation. I think it was last. Friday. We talked about it for a couple. hours just in the other room. And.

I mean, so if this is some type of a simulation, is your perception, are we all experiencing the same. reality, I guess, is what I'm asking. Or. am I in my own. >> Yeah. >> perceived movie? I I mean, I. don't know. I don't know any other way. to put it, but you know, I mean, are you. here? I think about this all the. time. I mean, are are you I mean, when.

you think about things like. manifestation, you know, which I think. probably works. Um. there's so many things in my own life. that I that that. are so far out. I never thought I would. have the opportunity to experience some. of the things that I've experienced. And. and going way way back to to right now, like even just right now, I can't I.

can't believe that. the operation that I've built with my. team is where it is. It doesn't seem. real. Uh that the none of this. seems real to me. what's going on in the. world doesn't seem real to me. Um, the success doesn't seem real to me. The. surviving some of the that I've. survived doesn't seem real to me. I. mean, it it's and so.

am I making any damn sense? I mean, >> is this am I alone in my reality? And. these are all just projections of things. that I've created in my head. everything. from my kids to my wife to you to this. build everything or are we all. sharing. one reality? >> I have to be very careful here because. it's a. >> am I making sense? >> Perfect sense. >> Okay. >> Um so, okay, let's let's try and keep it.

as simple as possible. Yes to your. question, you are in your own reality. However, the agents that are represented. in your reality are real in their own. reality. So, just like when you go into. let's say uh a virtual world, right? Like you put Apple Vision Pro or. whatever and we go into this I think. there's some projects like this like. Earth 2 or something where you get get. or I think Earth 3 is something else but. doesn't matter like a like a virtual. space where we meet, right?

You're meeting the other like the the. projections inside of that world, but. they represent a real person. You see. what I'm saying? So, in that world, if. you try to hurt them physically, you. can't really, but maybe if you try and. hurt them psychologically, you can. because there's a real person there. They're receiving the information, right? So imagine if the the system. builds such a safe uh environment that. basically even psychologically you can't. hurt other people if you really try.

because you're hurting just their kind. of avatars but the system is still. registering what you're doing and it's. informing the rest of them about your. behavior. So then they get to choose how. they interact with the projection of it. So basically, if you did this or that in. the in the world of your wife instead of. where she is, that translates to real. actions depending on the situation that. she finds herself with your avatar. And. it's only in the moments where we enter. that field of collaboration or love,

like actual one, not the one that you. can kind of fake by behaving a certain. way, but like when you really feel it, that's when you start feeling you start. getting closer to what that conscious. agent really is. And if you're fully. immersed in this love field, then you. will experience their actual just like. you would imagine in this life. And. notice that it does feel different. You. don't even with the closest people in. your life, you don't always feel it. But. when you do, you have to admit that it.

feels different. It feels different and. the world feels different. All of a. sudden, there's this like, oh, you're. just here. There's like a thing. There's. a there's this harmony flowing. There's. like a wow. With children, it's very. easy to see. Not when they annoy you, but when you're like really like there. with them, especially with them because. it's like so pure, right? But if you're having it with an adult. and you manage to kind of remove all the. psychological kind of imperatives and. like what I think you think and all of. these like psychological games, all of a. sudden if you just lower the volume on.

this and you're just in the presence of. someone else, which is very possible, there's a different kind of an. experience available that is of the. flavor of the real conscious agent. And. if I understood the whole like kind of. what it all trying to culminate in is. that eventually it wants all the agents. of one simulation to enter that field. and that's what essentially that's what. ascension is. It's like that's when you. fully unify as like one like truly truly. feel each other. I'm not talking about. in this like kind of like you know this.

fakeable Oh, I see. >> I know what you're doing. You're talking. about actual genuine love. >> genuine like true connection in the. moment. Right. So and com camaraderie. holds some elements of that but. camaraderie is more of a around a task. So you're joined by a task. Imagine. doing that just on just on command just. like a muscle. So yes, you're in your. own simulation but you can also enter. more in the space of others if you. manage to enter that space more with.

other people. >> What do you think happens when we die? uh depending on what happened to you. while you were alive. So basically I I. do think that there's serious data from. reincarnation and also it makes sense in. terms of everything else that I've seen. So it's almost like the the soul is. basically the ultimate hard drive. It. contains all the possible experiential. pathways but it it strips away it gives.

it kind of reformulates itself which is. I guess what you can say is the you know. when it plays your life to you which is. a pretty established kind of experience. and then it it it wipes everything that. was already done before clean. There's. no need for that. And only keeps the. super novel experiences that never. happened before. And then it proceeds to. the next life, to the next simulation, and it does it again and again. And. eventually all of these hard drives. arrive back at the source. And they. inform the source about what it's like. to have every possible experience. And.

that is due to basically it kind of goes. to the heart of why I saw these. simulations happen which essentially is. it's the attempt to. answer the ultimate questions like why. actually like why for real like of. everything. Now people tend to think. this in Christian circles this is a. little blasphemous like they do see it. as that kind of utterance is blasphemous. because it's like what are you saying. God doesn't know? Then you don't then. you're not talking about God cuz God is. perfect and God knows everything. Okay,

I understand. But let's pretend he. doesn't. Let's pretend that there's one. thing that God doesn't know, which is. why, right? And what I saw is that. basically that's the re it's the answer. collecting itself. That's the. relationship that that all conscious. agents actually have with the source, which is they're the answer to the. question. But at the same time, it also. allows for this processing of how it's. like to just let go, just truly just let. go of the question altogether. And both. of those are being trained at the same. time because it's and this is get it.

gets a little this is kind of novel. because it's you know it's very dramatic. but from what I saw is basically if. you're this infinite being that can do. anything then technically nothing. matters cuz it's like I can do anything. and you know there's no price for. anything right so you would separate. yourself with these in and if there's. one thing you don't know let's say which. is like why you're there then the two. things that would make sense to to one. try and answer that question that's kind. of interesting like I actually want to.

know right so you would create a process. by which the answer is kind of. collecting itself and then you would. also allow for the game of letting go to. be played through the simulations as. well which I guess you can think of it. more like the eastern tradition like the. monk that goes into the cave and feels. complete bliss without anything just. kind of being there right that's a. pretty good skill if you are a being. that will be there forever and you don't. know why right it's actually kind of. cool to be able to just like it doesn't. matter and just kind of be there right. in pure love. So again, setting aside.

the fact that a lot of people believe. that that's what God already is and must. be completely respect that no problem. But let's pretend that that's the. picture. Then what happens at the end of. all this process unfolding is that when. the answer fully collects itself and. there's this black box with the answer. in it like the actual answer then the. choice of whether you open that box or. not is the ultimate choice because if. when everything is said and done. everything that was possible to do so in.

the beginning was the word in the end. there's the choice and that choice is do. you open that box and you don't know. what's in the box you don't know if it's. a thing that you actually don't want to. know or it's the thing you really want. to know. You don't know. The choice has. to be real. If I put five million, if I. just tell you, hey Sean, would you do. you know whatever for this amount of. money? Let's make a ridiculous amount of. money cuz you know, kind of like uh I. put I don't know, I put five billion. dollars on the table. But I don't I just. tell you, hey, if I would give $5.

billion, would you do X? You'll tell me to off. I was like, of course I wouldn't. Whatever it was. But if I put $5 billion on the table, that's a different story because now. there's real state. There's it's an. actual thing you're saying no to, right? So the ultimate choice would mean. nothing if you just postulate. You're. like, "Oh, yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't. open it." Well, you don't know. If I put. the actual answer in the box and it's. guaranteed to be in the box, like that's. the actual answer, then you walking away.

means something or you opening it means. something. >> Mhm. But that that from what I saw. that's kind of like the connection that. we have to the ultimate which is like. that we're the process by which all of. this is unfolding basically. >> Why do you think that what what is it. about DMT that you think gives you. access to this other. >> I don't think it's necessarily DMT. I. think it's a lot of altered states. Some. people can naturally enter a lot of. these kind of perceptual spaces. They're. more talented. They're more sensitive.

Not sure. But DMT is definitely not the. only way or not even the preferable way. Uh I'm a long-term meditator. I've been. doing vapasa for years. You know, I've. done retreats and you can enter very. interesting states just by focusing your. mind in a particular way. But they. they're not usually accompanied by the. biotechnics that DMT gives you. It can, but not to that degree. DMT is really. like in it stands out in terms of the. visuals like or the content, but I don't. think DMT is the only access. Uh one one.

thing I can say um about Christianity in. particular you know my my wife was. raised Catholic but uh she you know as. many Catholics and this is not not a dig. Catholics but it's just a fact that a. lot of kind of ex- Catholics are very. kind of traumatized from the the guilt. you know that whole stuff uh and she was. one of them and um but she never stopped. praying so like she she sometimes she. would pray and I asked her and she said. that when She prays, she feels a.

different presence than any other. emotion. And I, as someone who never. experienced something like this, I asked. her like, "But what do you mean? Like, how do you know that it's different than. just feeling euphoria or something?". She's like, "I know it's different. It's. just like you can hear my voice now and. you know it's not your voice." So, it's. kind of like that. Like there's a. different thing there. I said, "How. interesting." Okay. And then I. understood that it's very likely and. probably exactly what's going on. Many. Christians who do believe fully, they.

don't just believe kind of like with. their head. They feel it in their. bodies. They know what it's like to be. in the presence of that. And I would say. that's one form of feeling the truth of. the situation. And it knowing the. details matters a lot less, I think, than just being in harmony with the. field. Just kind of allowing yourself to. be a good a good node in the in the. field basically. I think that's way more. important. So even if it isn't the only avenue in.

what is it that DMT is doing to the mind. that is lifting the veil? >> We're not sure. Uh we know that it. reduces a lot of activity in the brain. which is interesting. It's almost like. maybe it makes the whatever. >> it reduces activity in the brain. >> Yeah, it reduces a lot of the activity. in the brain. And um now that's not a. clear-cut statement because very often. lack of activation is also a state which. means that maybe it's just a state that. is more conducive to receiving more.

information but the brain is very often. less active in many ways. Um so. maybe what's happening which is. something that Andrew Dr. Andrew Galmore. is talking about maybe what's happening. is that basically this is a filter. So. the more active the filter is, the more. it kind of solidifies a particular kind. of experience. But maybe what DMT does, it loosens the the kind of the the walls. of the the framework, the reality we're.

in, and it allows more to flow in. That. more is real, but usually you don't have. to process it. So it just kind of feels. very jarring because it's way more than. you used to deal with or that you even. need to deal with. uh the brain probably. optimized the perfect kind of dialed in. the perfect rendering for you to exist, eat, survive, mate, all of the right. things for you to survive as an agent in. this world. But if there are many many.

more worlds outside, so if you think of. every world as like a bubble like an. island, right? Uh the brain would create. all the necessary tools to deal with. whatever is needs to be dealt with in. the physical threedimensional. environment as we perceive it. But if. you go outside of that, there might be. enormous oceans of just kind of. information that doesn't really co. doesn't really collect into something. coherent. But that information. eventually makes up other worlds. So if. in order to go to this next island where. there's other rules and some other laws.

of physics, you have to kind of travel. through this chaos, right? And then when. you arrive there, things might look. completely different in ways that you. never really anticipated. And you don't. have the tools. Your brain never learned. how to deal with four dimensions versus. three dimen you know it never really. maybe you can do it over time which I. think to some degree is what happened to. me is I did it so many times that my. brain learned how to handle their. environment so it's no longer that. confusing to me like I can kind of. understand what's going on. Um but but.

all of this is obviously postulation but. it does make sense when you're a. scientific perspective. Maybe one thing. that is important to emphasize. the when you're seeing something or. experiencing something, it's not like. just a an information collecting device. The the eyes are not working like a. camera. It's not like the camera is. there in some other form, but you kind. of, you know, no, it's not how it works. at all. What happens is the senses feed. signals. The brain is guessing outwards. The G is the brain is saying with.

everything else that I know, it builds. these like world models, right? almost. like think of it like an image like a. plaque card that it just puts up. It's. like hey I think it's this and then the. senses come in and it checks if the. senses disagree with your assumption. If. the senses don't disagree so there's. like full coherence or very high. coherence like yep it's exactly what you. thought then the brain actually ignores. the signal from the outside. It does. it's actually projected from the inside. So right now everything you're seeing. that is regular everything that's not.

moving that you're used to seeing it's. not photons that hit your retina. It's. your brain guessing that this is what it. is and your brain actually ignoring the. photons coming from the outside because. it doesn't need to do that. It already. has the model. It's only when something. surprising happens, if a bird flies into. the room right now, it's like, you know, super surprising. Then you'll be like, I. didn't expect that, your brain will. start actually allowing more of what's. coming from the outside in so it can get. informed. Okay, whoa, whoa, it's not. what I thought. Uh, is it this? Is it. this? And then it's tries to guess.

adjacently like what is it close to what. I thought it was? And eventually you. will find it because it knows what the. bird is, it it's surprising, but not. that surprising, right? But if a. leprechaun just like a pops right here, it will take your brain a moment to kind. of go like, you know what? It. [clears throat] like there's going to be. a lot more that would need to happen. Now imagine if the leprechaun is made. out of new dimensions that you've never. seen before. Let's say it really is. where your brain doesn't have in in the. repertoire that it built in the the the.

the the library of kind of things that. it expects to see. It doesn't have that. image. It has to construct it in real. time. And that's a very patchy kind of. it looks like a ransom node. Like it's. it doesn't really know how to do that. So it needs to almost like experience it. a few times and then say, "Okay, okay, okay, let's let's put something it will. create a new world model." And the. reason that this is relevant is because. when you smoke DMT, the content isn't just nonsense and. craziness and, you know, like just. complete mayhem. No, no, it's super.

coherent. It's more coherent than this, but way more complex. So, from. everything I just described to you, from. that perspective, it's very difficult to. explain this because the brain is not in. the business of making up new complex. content on the fly. It's not what it. does. Where is it coming from? Why is it. so coherent and so realistic? That is. the kind of central questions that. scientists asking themselves. So from. that perspective, it's a it's a pretty.

it's a pretty good ground to stand on to. assume that actually that content is. real. Let's talk about these entities. Can we. talk about those now? >> Of course. So we talked about angelic. demonic. reptilian and two others. >> insecttoids. >> Insecttoids. >> and jokers that I mentioned I think. Yeah. >> What what are these? >> So from what I saw and again I'm going.

to speak freely but please understand. that I I don't expect people just going. to take my word for it of course but I'm. just speaking from my experience so far. from what I understand uh it's not the. source. So like the source would be like. kind of like way way way way above that. and then it kind of disseminates. uh these tasks of rendering these worlds. to a to um contractors let's call it and. these species they all kind of produce. their own function and they working. towards the greater good of all from.

what I saw. uh the the beings that are rendering our. physical universe so what is simulated. is not earth it's the universe it's the. whole universe uh are the insecttoids. So the insecttoids are the the ones that. actually rendering our world which is. also why they are so common in people's. perception. People very often see the. insectoids. >> What do they look like? >> Uh a lot of different kinds. Some of. them look like straight up like praying. mantises. Some of them look like.

centipedes. Some of them look like. spiders. They're they're enormous. They're the some of them like some. people report they're the size of a. planet. Like they're enormous. And I. think they uh it seems like they're. weaving physical reality and they are. responsible for the fidelity of like so. the universe doesn't kind of fall apart. So like they obviously it's automated. but also they kind of do the error. correction when it needs to to happen. And again this is already like a super. wild thought. So you know but in for a. penny in for a pound. So we'll keep. compounding the craziness. Uh it might.

be it makes sense to me that they would. be dark matter. So like the galaxy might. be their city. So they're kind of like. the behind the scenes is what dark. matter is. It's a mass that they're. that's the layer that they're at. It's. their way of cloaking themselves from. us. So they can literally just they see. us like you see me and they can pull any. part of the universe to themselves. almost like on a you know just to just. order it just like you move your hand. towards you. They can just kind of move. any part of any time and any space. They.

can just move it towards them and look. at it. They can just be aware of it. basically. and they basically weave the. physical universe. Um that's the. insectoids. Um they're very um neutral. which a lot of people are disturbed by. because I think very often people are. are expecting to feel something. benevolent and caring and loving but. they're not. But they're als they're not. evil. They just don't care in the same. way that we think of caring, right? They. just kind of do the physical thing. So.

very often this expectation that people. have of this caring thing and the. distance between that and the fact that. they're just very neutral feels almost. like a negative. It's almost like. picking up an empty uh milk carton. You. know it's like ah like you wanted it to. be full but and it kind of feels like. that. Um. I mean I can say more but I feel like. you know it's just there's so many kind. of small details details there that I. feel like won't really mean much to. people. Um there's uh the jokers are.

interesting because they seem to be. extremely powerful. So like they seem to. be one of the most powerful beings in. existence outside of the source of. course. And basically they seem to be. kind of playing between the layers. So. they don't really belong to any. particular layer of existence. They can. jump from the lowest to the highest in a. split of a second. And there's something. about them that basically encapsulates. both the ying and the yang at the same. time. So they they're both the dark and. the light all at once because in order. for the creator so like in order for God.

almighty to experience something it has. to have through it has to be through a. boundary. But because the source is not. a boundary it's just the collective. totality of all things. Uh it needs kind. of like the senses of experiencing it. So somebody somewhere in existence has. to be able to experience the totality of. both the dark and the light at the same. time. And it seems that they are the. ones that were chosen to do that. The. gift that they were given as a.

reciprocation for that work which is. very difficult because it's almost like. they don't know what they are in every. given moment. Um is the fact that. they're one of the most powerful being. They can just do anything. They can just. move faster than anything, get anywhere. they want. They they can literally do. anything. I love grilling in the summer, but once. you move past burgers and steaks, it. gets frustrating fast. Vegetables fall. through the grates, fish falls apart, food sticks, and cleanup takes forever. That's why I've been using Hexclad's.

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So, this is also very often why when. people see them, it feels very jarring. because they're they're a lot. They're, you know, u like. >> um that's the reason they're called the. jokers cuz they're they uh I think I've. once seen them kind of like one of them. making itself into a shape, but it's. more the vibe they exert, not the it's. almost like the feeling of their. presence more than anything. Yeah. But. you would equate it to like a almost.

like a and I'm going to use a word that. is going to brand them as negative. They're not. They're literally both. They're also benevolent at the same. time. But it feels like a deranged. like a very manic. um. what would you call them? Like a you. know like a freak show thing in like a. in a carnival, right? And that's, by the. way, one of the archetypes that DMT is. compared to is like the multi like. multi-dimensional carnival, basically,

like a circus of some sort. Uh, but I've. also caught uh them in in quite a few. moments where you they do a really good. thing or they really care. So, like. they're really. undecipherable. and that's seems to be by design. Like. they're undecipherable to themselves. They don't really know like they just. experience this dichconomy all at once. basically. And there's all kind, you. know, there's all kinds of other um like. the the By the way, I I've definitely.

seen the uh reptilians quite a bit. The. real ones, they don't seem to have any. relationship to kind of the the. conspiracy theory idea of the reptilians. of like the evil ones that conspiring. and doing all the they don't seem to be. that at all. like they're just, you. know, they kind of do their thing and. they're actually they seem to be the. custodians of uh of um um what would you. call it? Well, I guess wisdom and. knowledge like that's kind of like their. domain like understanding what things. are, how they work. That kind of like.

that seems to be more of their domain. >> Are you interacting with these. >> with the insecttoids a lot? Yeah. Yeah, I see them every time I go. >> What kind of interactions? >> I for the most part I just kind of see. them. Um, sometimes it would stop and. look at me and try to like do something. or say something. Uh, I I've identified. a signal from what I guess you would. call the government. So like I know when. an official statement is made versus. just somebody told you something. It. feels different like you got an official. email by you know someone and uh so that.

that's always interesting because then I. kind of rely on the signal to to tell me. what is more or less likely. I was uh. projected uh a few times to I guess what. you would call the heavenly realms and. obviously everything you would imagine. it to be just like super pleasant very. welcoming but there's still a gravity to. the situation. It's very interesting. like even when you in the heavenly. realms you understand the kind of the. what's at stake like you kind of feel. the you know there's not like in that.

sense it's not a game you know what I. mean um but you can feel the the you. know the caricature version of what you. would expect kind of like heavenly. realms to be which is kind of like this. very welcoming light uh a lot of like. deep wisdom you know and the implication. of whatever that is like the ultimate. the God Almighty basically which is. just you know the scale of that is just. so unfathomable. It really is like words. are sounds so empty when you say it when.

you're in the presence of that and I'm. sure some people experience this. It's. just you're like wo really wo like oh my. like yeah you you tear up and you're. like that's I can totally understand how. if somebody lives in the presence of. that all the time it's like it plays a. big role in how how profoundly you feel. about life. Let's talk about this intervenous. DMT. What did you come up with that? No. Who.

came up with that? >> No, no, no, no, no. There's uh so uh. actually Dr. So Dr. Rick Strasman did. these experiments in the 90s, >> but if I'm not mistaken, those were not. sustained states. Those were were what's. called push. So like I connect you to an. introvenous thing, but mostly I'm just. kind of like shooting you with a bunch. of it, right? >> Uh and Dr. Andrew Gallamore worked. actually with Dr. Rick Strasman and uh. he basically realized that you can use.

the same technology we use in anesthesia. to sustain DMD in the blood cuz it's. actually not that simple as people think. like you actually have to figure out a. lot because the brain chemistry changes. there's metabolism happening certain. substances metabolize faster than others. you have to really think about all of. these parameters at once and there's. equations that describe the exact amount. that you have to inject in the beginning. after 5 minutes after 15 and it's it. changes right so he realized you can use.

probably the same technology uh to do. the same with DMT and that's basically. how we have what we have today and. there's quite a few research known. researchers doing this Dr. Chris. Timberman in the Imperial College in. London Dr. John Dean in San Diego you'll. see San Diego uh I think there's a few. others but basically yeah Dr. Andrew. Galmore is the one that kind of dialed. it in and then people use this. technology to do it. We use Kevin and. Haley in in Colorado. They're. incredible. Uh Kevin is the chemist. Uh.

Haley is the nurse. They're also a. couple. And they created this like. beautiful thing for you. There's also uh. another possibility for people. They can. go to uh Elusis, which is uh Dr. Andrew. Galmore is involved with that. It's in. uh St. Vincent's. It's um it's in these. uh islands. It's really beautiful. It's. like you're in paradise. Uh it's a it's. a it's a more expensive experience, but. it's worth it. So, like if you can. afford it, it's definitely worth it. because you're surrounded by. professionals. You have a doctor there,

you know, they create a really beautiful. environment for you. Uh and you do it. across multiple days. So, you show up. and it's like a whole retreat where. every day you go and you do a session. and they, you know, they do a. questionnaire for you. They make sure. that there's integration. So, there's a. lot of options on the table today. Oh, and it's completely legal, by the way, for anybody who's like worried about. legalities. So, like they have a. license, an agreement with the. government of the island to do this. completely legal. So, it's not illegal. there, right? And they're planning to.

extend that to do more things. So, if. anybody is worried about the legal. question, that's definitely your. address. Um, in Colorado, it's. decriminalized. So, it's not a criminal. offense, but it's not legal federally. So, you know, depending where you kind. of But yeah, it's a very beautiful. experience. you uh as I told you before. we started uh shooting it's it's a to. some degree it can be easier than. smoking it because you you can dial it. down or up as much as you want and you. can communicate in real time and if you. want they'll give you a bolus and you.

you know you'll go and if you want. they'll keep you there indefinitely but. you can do this for hours basically. that's what uh Chase saw me do it and he. was like I got to do it and he did it. and you know his experience was very. blissful. and by the way if you don't mind I saw. that you saying that you kind of you. it's hard for you to trust like the. people and I think that's key. I think. it's very important. Uh but this is. where kind of getting to know pe getting. to know the people before really helps. >> Um I'm pretty sure you're a pretty good. character judge and when you talk to.

Kevin and Haley you like know right away. they're like oh they're like. >> they're like. I've been off a couple of times. So but. um I let's talk about the actual. experience. I mean, is it that much? I. mean, how high did you go? >> I went pretty far. I spent 5 hours in. there. So, uh I think Chase did just. slightly under that. Um I went with 46. It ended up being 464 milligrams, which.

is an enormous amount. So, uh but we. weren't trying to like break records or. anything. We were just testing. We were. testing a bunch of things and we were. shooting for the film. So, there was. like camera crew there and we're like we. just kept on going basically. uh and in. that's actually one of the times where I. experienced the heavenly realms like I. was brought up to this you know. incredible field of light and I was. welcomed and all of that stuff and then. they were talking about the that whole. experience for me was around the whole. the importance of the moral question.

ethics what true morality is how it. influences not just us but the general. like the the rest of the field and. things like this it's very beautiful but. again with the whole kind of like the. gravity of the situation So that but. that was that was the majority of my. experience. But we were also very busy. doing other things like looking at the. laser and doing all kinds of tests, you. know. So it was a it was it was a mixed. bag in that regard. It wasn't I really. like the space. So for me, I can I can. probably stay there pretty much. indefinitely if you take care of my.

body. I can stay there. Um but it's not. that way for everybody. So everybody. have to ask themselves if how. comfortable they are with novelty. because it's dialed up to 100 basically. Interesting. Interesting. And how how. long were you in the heaven labor room? Do you know? >> Uh the majority of it probably like an. hour or two until somebody pulled my. attention towards the test we were. doing. >> Are you completely out? >> No, I was aware of the room. And you can. be you absolutely it can happen of. course. Yeah, if you're like fully out,

you're fully out. Like it can happen. Um. and also maybe an important thing to. mention it's darker experiences can. happen as well. Now obviously if you do. everything correctly so like if you set. in setting you set up the space it. actually plays a role. It's not just. like to make you feel good like there's. certain rules and if you kind of abide. by these rules the chances of having a. dark experience are very low but it can. happen and uh then you know just you can. always ask to like lower it or you can.

just have an interaction because in the. end of the day uh either people believe. it or not everything including the. darkest of entities they're all the. children of God they're all they're all. encapsulated within the the blanket. where God still always keeps some door. open for them to some degree. So, in. that regard, they're not different than. us. So, they're, you know, they have uh. you have to if if you're interested, you. can kind of if you're already there, if. that happens, it might be interesting to. actually have an interaction. Doesn't.

mean that you're playing ball. It's just. to observe and set up your own boundary. And that can also be an interesting. exploration which by the way a lot of. people use for kind of dealing with. their own demons cuz very often we have. stuff inside of us that we don't admit. but that can actually be a reflection of. that then can be showing you something. that you might need to address but I'm. only mentioning it because we we have to. be responsible we have to acknowledge. the fact that yeah darker experiences. happen as well for sure. [sighs].

>> Do you think we should be messing around. with these realms? Do you think this is. one realm or are you witnessing several. realms? >> It's the infinite. Yeah, it's the. infinite space. >> Um, you're asking a good question, but I. think it's just the same question of. should we messing around be messing. around with anything. You the t the. the gene that we carry that tells us. don't venture out of the village is a to. some degree a good one cuz you want to.

stay where it's safer. But if you will. never venture out of the village, you'll. never discover anything new and you will. never better the world. And wolves will. still come to the village. There's no. plateau where danger is gone completely. It's like by going out of the village, by venturing out, you are endangering. yourself to some degree, but you're also. discovering things that can actually. feed the village that that can actually. make things better. And I think that's. what humans are. They are the kind of. thing that allows the world to become a.

better version of itself. If we choose. to be that kind of a thing and play that. role, if we choose to be something else. and just be selfish, then it won't be. that. But I I do think that this fear is. to some degree merited because, you. know, you never know what you're messing. up. But the reality of it is that you. kind of only go by what you're. experiencing in real time. So when you. go and experience the darker entities, you go like, "Oh my god, you know, maybe. I didn't want to experience that." But. when you experience the really positive. ones, you're really happy you did that.

So maybe you say, well maybe then. because both extremes exist, maybe we. should just stay where we are. Legitimate legitimate uh attitude. That's fine. But I think when people can. explore, I think it's in our nature. I. think we're we're we're the kind of. thing that wants to explore that wants. to go out. It's just it's just it's just. what we do, right? >> Uh so I think that's not really a. question of should we is that's how we. are. Um and um and to some degree I. think there's again healthy respect and.

the ability to you know be humble at the. same time and correct course if needed. very important but you can't stop a dog. a dog from sniffing right that's what we. do that's kind of. >> and the fact that it's available like. think about this like. >> oh okay well I guess. what I was about to say is that The fact. that it's possible to do tells you that, you know, there's something there. But I. immediately thought of a fair criticism.

of this point, which is like, well, maybe it was left by, you know, the. devil or something because they were. they're trying to catch you or. something. Yeah. But that would be very. hard to explain why there's so many. beautiful things in there as well that. definitely doesn't belong to that. category of things. It feels more like. it's just a main artery or more of and. we get to kind of interact with it. With. the full admission, this is not for. everybody. I don't think just like. everything else skydiving is not for. everybody going to space is not for. everybody but it is for some people. >> and those are not competitions like if.

you look if you ask the more kind of big. question about humans in general people. think that you know going to Mars is. somehow uh uh somehow negating fixing. global warming or like f has nothing to. do with it like you some people will do. this no matter what like because that's. who they are. They want to go explore. They're they're pioneers, right? >> Some people they love here. They love. dirt. They love gardening. They.

beautiful. Those are not mutually. exclusive. You need someone to take care. of home and you need someone to go and. venture out of the village to find new. things that you and you can bring back. and hopefully can feed the village as. well with new beautiful things. But what. we will discover by trying even if we. never get there I think we will but even. if we never will just by trying to do. this we will learn so much that can. probably help us solve global warming. So there's you know there's there always. reciprocal if people just understand. that it's not we're not all the same. Some people are they want to see the new.

thing they wanted the future and some. people they just want to stay put. They. just want to take care of home. One. thing I will say as somebody who. definitely one of the people that loves. exploring, you know, home is an interesting word to. use here because home is home. But if. you if you're still at home at 43 years. old, something's kind of off, isn't it? Like. your mom's going to start looking at you. like, "What's going on here?" You know. what I mean? It's like, I think it's. time to go and explore. So, you know,

home is great and it's always going to. be here, but we also we might we're. becoming young adults as a species. So, I think we're it's actually we're ripe. for let's go and find out what what we. want to be in the universe and hopefully. we can become the kind of species that. uh we're proud to be. And I think that's. very possible. >> Let's talk about consciousness for a. little bit. What what what does it mean. to you? >> Consciousness for me is a very simple. thing which is just the fact of. experience itself. So just the fact that. anything is happening at all, how it.

comes about is a separate question. But. if you ask me what consciousness is, it's just the fact that anything is. happening right now. It's the only thing. you know for sure. Consciousness, you. know, sometimes people say, "Can. consciousness be an illusion?" No, it's. the one thing that can't possibly be an. illusion because if you're asking the. question, I just released a short clip. of this recently. If you're asking the. question, is it actually. what you're experiencing or just seems. to be that way? The seeming itself, the.

fact that it seems like anything is what. consciousness is. We're not asking how. it came about. Just the fact that it's. happening, right? That's what. consciousness is. So, it cannot possibly. be an illusion. It's the one thing you. can take to the bank that for sure. consciousness is the only thing you know. that is actually happening. Everything. else can be an illusion. your ideas. about the universe like whatever it is. that can't be because you have it that. this is it that's what it is and then. that actually begs the question whether. consciousness is fundamental which to me. seems to be like very obvious of course.

like it it has to be fundamental it is. the most fundamental thing and then. everything else probably arises from it. to some degree but not all consciousness. is what we experience there's all kinds. of levels and and types of. consciousnesses we are a very particular. agentlike consciousness which is kind of. like this inwards pointing thing where. you you believe yourself to be behind. your eyes between your ears and the rest. is happening out there but even from.

meditative states I can tell you that. you can have experiences that are not. embodied like you can just be diffused. cloud well you did five so you know. >> you can just be a diffused cloud of. consciousness and that's probably how. most consciousness is. >> where does it come from. >> I think it's literally the world itself. It's a question of where the world comes. from which what. >> do you think we're a shared. consciousness? >> I think we have a shared pool of that. consciousness that we can enter but then. the the the agency is also arising from.

it. So like the separation also means. something like for this level of. emergence the separation is necessary to. do something and then we can enter a. state in which literally you and me are. the same. Did I read somewhere that you you think. that there are. levels of consciousness? >> Mhm. >> Could you go through that? >> Yeah. So I guess it will be all the way. to the unified field or God or like just. the totality of everything that can be.

And I guess that's what uh well if you. look at it from a certain perspective. maybe this is why this is what Buddhists. refer to as nirvana which is just the. totality of just ex existence. It's like. there's no more there's nothing that can. be said about it. There's nothing can be. done about it. It's not a thing. It's. just the totality of all. And the levels. in between are basically level of agency. like how how much your agentike.

consciousness perceives itself to be. So. maybe your cells are conscious but. they're not as conscious as you because. the amount of information that you. embody at the same time is way greater. than what any one cell does. And I do. feel like that's basically like these. infinite nested dolls. So maybe earth is. also conscious and like literally but. not just physical things like it kind of. gets into this it gets very esoteric but. this you know conference that I. mentioned to you with Donald Hoffman and.

Dr. Andrew Galmore, this colonel that. they're talking about. It's actually a. super interesting theory and it really. to be honest it was a very small closed. event but to me it felt like something. happened like it felt like an inflection. point in history in that conference like. something huge happened which is this. understanding that they have. I think. they unlocked something huge. So you'll. be hearing a lot about this and you. should look up Donald Hoffman. He's. actually trending like he was on all the. big ones like it might be a very really. interesting conversation for you. Um and.

basically what what they found is that. there's this one component which is what. they call the the kernel of experience. which is it defines if this is all the. possible field of of experiences you can. have what the kernel determines is how. big is the pool from which you're. sampling from. So what they think is. happening is that the human experience. is kind of like maybe here, right? DMT. does this. It just kind of samples from. a much larger pool of what's possible to. experience and then the experience might.

become not just more of but it it can. become a completely different kind of. thing. So it it can all of a sudden you you. know it's not something that is. languageable. You it's not English. You. can't really put words to it because. those words don't exist. It's just a. completely different reformulation. And. this is why defining just the layers is. very hard of consciousness cuz it might. not work like in a uh like a hierarchy. It might work more like a different.

arrangements of which makes it way more. complex. >> H. what about the physical? >> That's a great question. That's why I. ask myself all the time. If it's all. mind, why this particular region of mind. feels so regular? feels so like. something like I can't really control, right? I I I don't really have a good. answer for it yet, but I think that has. something to do with uh fidelity of. local structure. So like it's part of. the training wheels. It's part of the.

kind of the grace of God cuz if you. would just be if anything would be. anything, you wouldn't be able to exist. like you know if you would just fall. through the chair through the floor all. of a sudden you'd be like okay what's. going on? Like you can't trust anything. I think the fidelity of this construct. is actually one of the gifts that we've. gi we were given and if it's the. training ground then maybe because if. everything you would just think would. become immediately. it would devolve into hell immediately. like how many negative thoughts people. have every day like enormous amounts.

right. >> so maybe this is what it is that we're. learning how to control our inner state. so there's this hiatus that gives us. some grace so we we see if things go in. the wrong direction and we can get to. correct them. We we we're giving time to. process what this how things unfold. So. I think maybe with the physical world is. it's the the stage that was created to. help us learn. to become more of what we're capable of. being. You know, I've heard um back to that.

intervenous. DMT experience, you know, had people tell me that that you meet. your guardian angels, that you meet um. you figure out who you are, you can ask. questions. I mean, >> on DMT. >> on DMT, the intervenous one. >> Okay. So, are you asking me if that if. I'm expanding? asking you. >> Um,

I've never met my guardian angel. Uh, I've never met met what people call the. guides. >> The guides. >> Yeah. Some people refer to him as the. guides. Like they when people wake up. spiritually very often they refer to the. guides. Like people kind of like they. tell them what's the correct thing. >> I I don't know. I don't want to like. I've met people that are very kind of. spiritually awake. It's definitely feels like something to. be in their presence. So there's. something different. So I tend to. believe them, but I don't have a way to.

know if that just like a psychological. structure that was created in them, you. know, like I've never experienced it. Is. it possible? Yeah. It would make perfect. sense that, you know, they would be kind. of because they're ready. They're kind. of guided a little bit more than others. to kind of help other humans and all. that stuff. >> You you kind of hear them say, you know, they they figure out who they are. What's what's. >> who am I? Like you hear that a lot in. the in the in the psychedelic realm, right? Who am I? What's my purpose? >> So, it's kind of hard to know who's. faking it and who actually made it,

right? Uh but yeah, no, I I I think that. refers more to the the whole Buddhistic. approach of um that ultimately you're. none of the content. Well, it actually. gets a little kind of fumbled by by a. lot of people that you mention because. there's this tendency to say, I've. discovered I'm all of this. So, like I'm. not just the little me with my. psychology. I'm I'm the totality of all. things. When and and it it it's try I. think to some degree it's try it tries. to echo what what Buddhists say. But.

what Buddhists say is a little bit. deeper than this. Buddhists don't say. you're the totality of things. They're. saying you're none of the things. You're. the field in which all the things arise. So the referral is probably to that. experience that you basically discover. that there's not like little me. struggling in the machine. you're. actually just the experience itself in. which everything happens. There's. actually a really fun practice that you. can do anywhere. Uh it's uh it's an old. Buddhist practice that was illustrated. really well in this book called uh on.

having no head. Uh and basically anybody. can do this anywhere. If you look at an. object, right, and you turn your. attention back on yourself and in that. moment you're asking the question, who. is looking? But you're not asking the. question because you're trying to find. out. You're not trying to answer the. question. You just you exist. in the question. So like if you look at. me right now, right? And it might not. happen right away. You can practice a. few times. But if you then turn the. attention just inside back on yourself.

and ask who is looking like who is. actually where is that thing that is. actually looking out? And in the. beginning it would be like all these. answers which is like what do you mean. like me? like here behind my head where. I am is well the second you gave it an. answer you collapse the possibility of. experiencing it but if you allow. yourself to not answer just be in the. field of that question eventually. something will happen and it's a very. quick thing so you're not supposed to be. like go deeper or something like this. just you reset do it again reset do it.

again eventually what will happen is. there will be almost like a like a. glitch you'll be like you'll be like. you'll realize that that thing you think. you're in the middle it's not there. there's there's one line that in some. Buddhist practices they repeat over and. over and over again and they repeated it. until it becomes a reality. They say. there's no one here that all of this is. happening to. and they keep repeating this. There's no. one here that all of this is happening.

to. And eventually from the statement. you get to the experience of that. reality which is actually there's no one. here that all of this is happening to. It's just kind of happening. And I've. I've experienced this in meditative uh. retreats where it just becomes the room. >> What do you mean it just becomes the. room? >> It just becomes the room. There's no. more agent in the middle. So there's the. body is there, but you don't feel like a. U. You realize that the U was just a. feeling just like you feel elation,

anger, love, all the emotions. It's it's. just a sensation in the body. the thing. that you feel yourself it's a sensation. in the body probably created for. survival reasons so like um when you. refer to things right is because you. need to get somewhere I need to get. there uh I love whatever uh I dislike. whatever when you making these uh you. you're referring to something what. you're implying is that there's a thing. that is there away from what then what's.

implied is that it's away from. something. This implication is what you feel like. being a self. It's a feeling of being a. you. like a central inness of some sort. >> But when you look close enough, you. realize it's just all these like. outwards pointing vectors. But if you. look in the middle, there's nothing. there. >> It was all implied by the by the. references to the external the external. world. But if you relax this machinery. and you just stop trying to point, what.

happens is it just diffuses. Just like. in a 5 MO where you just kind of become. the field. You there's just the room. There's no psychedelic explosion, but. there's literally just the room. And. it's very peculiar this feeling this. state because it's not really. outstanding. It's the most matter of fact you will. ever experience. It's almost like, oh, that's just how things are. And the. second you you know you get too deeply. into that oh this is super interesting. then your best self because now you're.

referring to something but that feeling. is very liberating and that's what. ultimately liberation is because then. there's nothing to defend. There's. nothing to worry about. There's nothing. there's no one here that all this is. happening to. It's just kind of. happening. But then that feeling it it. you know if you keep pushing it you can. expand to not associating with even the. concept that brought you there with the. body with everything and ultimately. according to the Buddha which is what. full liberation is nirvana which is that.

you stop associating even with your own. reincarnation. So like in the moment of. death you're so non uh attached that. you're simply no no longer reincarnated. it's done. Like there's there's nothing. But on a much lower level, you can. absolutely have this experience just by. this little practice that I just. described to you. And and it doesn't. take years. Like if you actually. consistent with it and you do this like. you can do this well well I wouldn't do. it when you drive but like you just sit. on the couch for a second or something. Just do it with like anything. Just look.

at a camera. It's easier with natural. objects with a bush whatever. Do it a. few times. within two or three days, I. bet you'll be able to do it and it will. be very distinct. It wouldn't be one of. those like did I manage to do it? You'll. be like, holy Like you will feel. that there's actually nothing there. Um. it's u and and if it's really hard to. grasp why this would be convincing, there's an there's a little kind of this. allegory that Buddhists use to describe. it. It's called the the snake and the. rope allegory. So basically if you if if.

we see like a snake right in the thing. and be like, "Holy shit." You have an. emotional response and then it's not. moving. So you and I will be like, "Wait, is that cuz it's still kind of. far. It's dark. Oh, we think it's a. rope." Then you relax, right? So you're. going to keep moving between this like, "Is it a snake? Is it a rope? Is it a. snake? Is it a rope?" And so it's. equated to this fact that there's no. self. So you go between experiencing. that there is no self to back to being a. self. But there's going to come a moment. that if we, you know, if I muster the.

courage and I get up and I walk towards. it and I get close enough, there's going. to come a moment where the possibilities. collapse. Cuz if it is a rope and if I'm. close enough and I'm holding it and. there's enough information, that's it. I. know it's a rope now. And even if I'm. going to go back to my seat and leave it. there, at no point am I going to all of. a sudden believe it's a snake again. because I know it's a rope now. So. there's a moment of conclusiveness that. happens when I when I when I'm close. enough. So the experience of having no. self,

you can have this conclusive experience. with in such a way that you will never. go back to believing there's a self. again. And that's liberation. That's. basically kind of like the the ultimate. point. >> So is this an is this an ego death? >> Well, you can you can think of it like. this. Yeah. >> Is it the same as experiencing the. oneness on five? I think the five is accompanied by a lot. of other factors as well like the. presence of something divine in addition. to that which doesn't happen with just. the collapsing of the self. >> Uh but but the collapsing of the self is.

very pleasant. >> It's it's a pure harmony just like how. things are. There's no problems. Everything is perfect. Have you ever had. sometimes people have this haphazardly. but they just don't notice that that's. basically what happened. Um, did you. ever have like, you know, out of nowhere. for no good reason, you just sit there. and all of a sudden you're like, "Oh, dude, everything's great." Like just for. a moment there's like this like complete. relief for no reason. This happens quite. often to people and there's and then. they go back to worrying and all that.

stuff. But. >> that moment it's very close to that. And. by the way, people lose themselves all. the time. Uh this is not my example. pointed out by many but like when you. watch a movie in a theater and you're. fully engrossed in the film like you're. fully immersed you don't remember you. came to watch a movie you don't remember. you're there you're just in the movie. well yourself was diffused but there's. just the movie. >> see what I'm saying. >> and then when you snap out of it you. don't even notice the transition but. you're like you eat popcorn it's like. now I have a body I eat oh I'm in a.

theater but you don't think about it and. you go back to the movie but imagine. that with reality without a movie just. like there just there's just the. world. >> I think I've reached this before. but for. maybe a second. >> Yes, exactly. People think sometimes. they can oh yeah I can stop thinking for. like 30 seconds. >> They can't like hang out in that realm. >> You can if you practice that's what. meditation is for. Meditation is not. some kind of a magical trick you do. What it is is the use you train the use.

of your attention in a particular way to. bring about that realization or just. like stay in that state longer and. longer basically and there's techniques. to do that. >> I mean so do you have a U? >> Yeah. Yeah. I So for example. >> you're able to eliminate the U or. collapse it as you say. I mean is. >> is there a U? There is no there is no. actual you in the sense of like that.

that's not a thing. It's it's an the. reason it's called an illusion is. because it's implied in. So like uh if. you put uh you know this visual illusion. of like four squares. >> you're saying you is an invisible is. invisible is an emotion. It's. >> well I'm I'm giving you a visual. example. So if you have four squares and. each square has a little thing cut out. of it to create the illusion of a circle. in the middle. You you you can visualize this right. now. Well, that circle is is what the. self is. It's implied between because of.

how the squares are. Squares are real. Circle isn't. It's just implied. And. it's exactly the same thing. So now I. can't do this on on a fly. That requires. a pretty high level of meditators to do. this like on a regular basis. I've had. it a couple times so I can report on it. But there's some people that claim that. they can do this pretty much on the fly. they can just turn it on or turn it off. and and you're fully online by the way. You're not like confused or anything. That that'll be the difference between 5. MO and something like this. You're a.

fully coherent person. You can perform. tasks, speak. In fact, there's much. higher clarity in that state because. there's not all this extra work being. done to try and, you know, think about. what what I am, how I appear. None of. this is online. and you just kind of. speak. >> What's something I should be asking you. that I haven't asked? >> Um, man, what put me on the spot. Um, I don't know. We covered quite a bit.

Uh, maybe there's something that. Yeah, it's it's something that I guess I. already said, how would I think of it in. terms of a question is what should we. actually be focused on? uh given the. fact that we can be aware of so much. more of what is possible to know and I'm. really passionate about this question. because I think that that holds the key. for for humanity humanity's future it's. very difficult to adopt because it. requires actual relinquishing of a lot. of the convictions that people hold and.

it doesn't really matter what it is like. if you have a very strong conviction of. anything you should lower the volume on. that because first of all things in the. world are extremely complex And even. more so when it's compounded by the fact. that you will never really have access. to the to the reality of what the. situation really is. And this applies, by the way, to anything. So everybody. who's their favorite topic rings in. their mind, I'm not implying anything. I'm literally speaking about everything. Everything is like this. Um, and the.

only way that I see that humanity will. move into a future that is worth having. is if everybody or the majority of. people can actually lower the volume of. what they think they know for sure and. then allow themselves to just experience. the true moment there. Now, people like. you, for example, you have a lot of. reach. So, what you say and what you. think actually does do a thing. But for. most people, just me leaving a bunch of comments.

online things. It's just it's not only. it's not doing anything. If anything, it. just disturbs the field even more. So. like the thing that the way that I view. it, the thing that where we can move. into a future that is truly worth like. actually having and being a part of is. if people can actually just. own their own domain. Like what is it. that I've I've said this on on you know. many occasions so it might sound a. little repetitive to people who follow. me but if you are spending 80% of your. day criticizing other people even if you.

think you're punching up right but you. haven't done anything today to make. someone else's life in your life better. ask your neighbor what they need help. with like something that you actually. did that is actually do then you're just. making noises like it's and you kind of. disturbing yourself and everything else. and this is why I said it's easier said. than done I'm not preaching I'm guilty. of this all the time but I when I'm in. more you know clearheaded spaces I know. that I shouldn't like I know that I if I.

can I should move towards more and more. just kind of focusing on what I can do. to make someone next to me feel better. uh in a genuine way to help someone to. like it also feels a certain way like. there's there's a more of like a. wholesome feeling to it, right? When you. truly do something good. Um, so if we. can focus more on that and by the way, this does not eliminate the the fun of. interacting with super grand ideas. I. love them. But you enjoy them even more. if you know you're acting out of a place. of of care, of love, u and you're trying.

to do your best to project the best. intentions versus the worst intentions, which is something again, I'm guilty of. it all the time. Um, but it it feels. different because you get to see. possibility. there. Okay, there's this book that I. forget the name of and I didn't even. read to be honest, but the idea that. somebody explained to me from the book. really resonated. It's something about. frames. So, it's all it's all about um. how do you what kind of frame you. project it around a person. So, let's. say if somebody even is trying to pull a.

fast one on you, right? They're kind of. tr trying to pull some right? If. if you can do this in a genuine way, which is very tricky. It's very hard cuz. usually if you identify that, you go. like, "Oh, nobody buddy." You know what. I mean? Like you start getting like all. you you lock your horns. But if you can. just like genuinely project something. onto them, like actually see them in a. really positive light, but truly they. will actually have a very hard time to. still do that because people don't want.

to lose something good. It's a lot more. painful to lose something than to g than. the the fear of not having it ever. If I. just tell you that I would have given. you $20 but never gave it to you versus. giving you $20 like in a casino and then. taking them away from you, you ended up. with the with the same amount of money. anyway, but that second one was way more. painful cuz I took something away from. you. >> So if I'm giving you this positive. outlook of you again still it has to be. within the bounds of reason of course. but people if they they will identify.

that and it would be very hard for them. to still do that thing because that mean. they will lose that positive outlook of. themselves. And if we can just project. more of that onto one another and again. doesn't mean we have to be delusional. We can still fix everything needs to be. fixed and and criticize properly all the. things that need to be u criticized. But. there's if there's just a little bit. more of I guess I guess the word is. grace. There's a little bit more grace. in the understanding that most people. are just trying their best and failing.

Most people are not this the you know. conniving mustache twirling you know. like just just want to mess things up. Most people do their best in failing. because they don't know any better. And. if we can just have a little bit more of. that and we can still take strong action. and we can still do everything that. needs to be done and we just recognize. that the majority of people are not. psychopaths. They're just just like. everybody else. To me, that's that's the. the remedy to try and move the world. into a better place because ultimately.

the world is a collection of personal. interactions just on different scales. So, if you can raise a generation of. children that is more like that, it's a. lot easier to do things in a different. way. Uh, and of course, I'm aware that. it's uh it seems to be like an infinite. infinite distance from us, but I think. it's possible. I when I watch my. daughter grow, I'm like, I want to do. more of that. So So she gets to grow. into a world that that she would really. enjoy.

>> I love that. It's a great way to end. this. >> Thank you for having me, Sean. >> Yeah. Thank you for coming. That was uh. that was awesome. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I enjoyed it. >> Hope to see you again. >> I hope so, too. [music]. >> [music]. >> No matter where you're watching the. Shawn Ryan Show from, if you get.

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