Chris VanSant - Delta Force Operator / The Hunt for Saddam Hussein | SRS #51 (Part 1)

hey everybody welcome back to the show. been having some heavy ones on here. lately right and this week's no. different we got a two-part series. with a former Delta Force operator who. was on the Saddam Hussein raid. which eventually led to. saddam's. execution which is exactly what needed. to happen to that human being. please like comment subscribe to the.

Channel please head over to Spotify and. apple podcast leave us review subscribe. there as well and without further Ado. ladies and Gentlemen please welcome. Chris Van Zant former Delta operator to. the Sean Ryan Show love you all this is. a heavy one and it's important a lot of. history here enjoy it one last thing. merch gummy bears all that good stuff is.

about to be back in stock we have a. thing we call the Sean Ryan Show. newsletter go to the description click. the link below sign up for the. newsletter. because that's how you get notified when. all this good stuff comes to the market. all right love you guys cheers. [Music].

[Music]. [Music].

[Music]. thank you. [Music]. Chris Van Zant welcome to the show man. hey man thanks for having me I. appreciate it yeah I apologize I'm I.

think I'm fighting off a little. something so my voice is a little odd. but I'll I'll do my best no worries no. worries at all if you need to take a. break. we'll take a break appreciate it but um. a whole career in Special Operations. Army Special Operations. out of the unit. now you're doing business Consulting. you're really involved in the all-secure. foundation I want to touch on that at. the end actually I want to do more than. touch on that I want to talk about what. they're doing but uh for this interview. I mean you're just a really inspiring.

guy I'm inspired by uh I know my. audience is going to be inspired and a. lot of wisdom a lot of knowledge a lot. of guys coming out are looking up to. people like you and there's just a lot. of knowledge to give and um so I want to. kind of start off with. childhood. why you got into the military what your. military career was like and then get. into some of the obstacles that you've. overcome.

um. outside of the military as a civilian. and um and we'll kind of go from there. but. real quick at breakfast this morning we. were having a conversation about. whatever you want to call it the. universe and or 25 conversations yeah. and and things coming back uh coming. back to you you know if you inject good. in this world things coming back. shouting things out into the universe. and then they happened and. you know I just.

it happened again right there at. breakfast for me. I've been having. I think maybe some hard problems and and. um probably something I need to get. checked out a lot of heartburn. and my wife actually brought it up at. dinner last night you know that could be. something a lot more serious you've been. having a lot of heartburn I'll be damned. 12 hours later sitting at breakfast with. you in the very first conversation we. have is that you just had three stents. put in uh because they found some. blockages and and these are the kind of.

things happen to me all the time uh a. positive one would be. when I got engaged to my wife uh I got. engaged to her in Alaska and I wanted to. do it under the Northern Lights not. knowing there were seasons for that not. knowing anything and we went there in. August to do something with this guy. Jeff Reed we did some content there. and um bringing out his story.

and I told him what I want to do and he. said dude the northern lights do not. come out in August in August. and sure [ __ ] second day there we'd run. an arbnb I was going to pick the film. crew up and Jeff texted me he's like. you're not going to believe this [ __ ]. the northern lights are on like full. blast for like once in a yeah yeah. because every now and then they have an. event yeah yep and I was like [ __ ] I. gotta go pick the [ __ ] film crew up. so I go pick the film crew up they flew.

on separate flights second guy's flight. got delayed and these he's like you. better hurry up and do it because these. things are usually out for like 10 15. minutes and then they're gone. they must have been out for four hours. because I brought. one of them back to the Airbnb went to. pick the other one brought him back the. second guy just got back from Europe he. wanted to talk all about his trip to. Europe and I'm like I gotta get I gotta. get engaged I gotta get the [ __ ] out of. here yeah and um. so took off in the car had no idea where.

I was going to do it probably drove. around for an hour. finally found a park. by that time it's like 1 32 in the. morning we're freezing our asses off. and she just wants to go to bed and I. get out of the car with the ring and the. [ __ ] Northern Lights are gone. and I'm I'm standing there she's passed. out in the passenger seat I'm like. please just give me [ __ ] five anybody. anybody up there just pull some strings.

for me I need five [ __ ] minutes just. to get this done like we just had four. or five hours of Northern Lights I [ __ ]. you not man. right back on they came went over. grabbed my wife out of the car and uh. woke her up yep hey wake up wake up and. um. and we got engaged right there under the. northern lights and right after we got. engaged the entire Sky lit up. and.

it was just like. if you ever seen them uh no not in. person just videos and I've been in. Alaska in the winter didn't see him I've. been to Iceland but we were there in the. summer didn't see him so it's always. been something I wanted to do so I get. it yeah so just total magical and uh. but that I just you can't chalk that up. as a coincidence nope and um so I was. just wondering if you want to share. anything specifically I know sometimes. sometimes they're subtle for me. sometimes they're overpowering like that.

but um. do you got anything yeah I mean I've. said for years like the universe talks. to you and you have to pay attention. um I think I've got better at listening. as the years have gone by but like this. hard stuff is a great example. um I've always known uh so so. grandfather father brother uh all had. either heart attacks or open heart. surgery in their 40s um so I've always. been aware of the family history. um but like most guys particularly guys. from the community you know I've not.

been the best about you know like going. to the doctor and taking care of myself. I sort of did what we had to do to. remain Deployable or whatever they used. to call it but. um so now fast forward you know to post. career. um I was. when I got out of the service I had some. back-to-back blood tests that showed. that my cholesterol was high so I made. an appointment went to see a. cardiologist I was proactive when I. tried to go get referred out to a. cardiologist in the beginning they were.

like now you're you're a young guy. you're healthy you're in shape like. you're not gonna have any heart problems. why do you need to see a cardiologist. and I was like no you don't understand. and I literally had to like fight for. myself but I knew that that was a thing. um and So eventually ended up seeing one. um got on some cholesterol medication uh. and uh and you know did a stress test. every two years or so and everything was. fine my cholesterol levels were good. everything was good. um but I was at work uh this past year. or just the year prior.

um and I started noticing that I felt. funny and it wasn't chest pain it wasn't. wasn't pain in my left arm it wasn't. heartburn which is what my dad had when. you know the precursor to his heart. attack was heartburn not to freak you. out but uh but something was going on. and I felt like something wasn't right. um and so I and I listened because too. many times in my life you know the. universe has said things and I haven't. heard it or hadn't paid attention to it. and then after the fact you realized man. there were these signs that I should. have paid attention to but I paid.

attention to it um I won't say fully but. at least enough that I said these things. to my wife and between the two of us. um we agreed that you know I needed to. get checked out well it ended up turning. into a blood pressure spike I ended up. in the ER they found nothing told me. there was nothing but you know the two. of us both were like we need to pay. attention to what's going on so we. pressed the issue I went to see a. cardiologist ended up with a cardiac CT. and lo and behold I you know just like. grandfather father brother I ended up.

with some heart disease issues so I had. three three blockages. that were fairly substantial luckily for. me modern medical science is absolutely. incredible over a space of about six. weeks I had a couple different heart. procedures. but again it's it's about listening and. paying attention and then furthermore. like that in that course of events which. was just you know six seven months ago. I'd been in a career for seven years. post service that was great working for.

a great company. um but you know had a certain amount of. stress which was part of the equation. and because I know I need to pay. attention to those signs I said you know. what I think I need to make a change so. I did so seven months ago I I punched. out of what I was doing and and stepped. away after seven years and decided to. take a little break and then started a. consulting company. um mainly because I I love the defense. industry I love the end users that we. support and I felt like I had some. knowledge and experience that maybe. could help some companies you know get.

good Innovative stuff in in the guy's. hands so. it's crazy how one thing will lead right. into the next you know are you happier. now. uh yeah I mean I don't think you realize. um with any profession as time goes on. as you and duties and responsibilities. increase I don't think you realize the. weight that you carry around uh until. it's not there. um so you know there was an inherent. amount of stress that comes with growth. uh and chasing the next thing as a as a. company in the defense space and you.

know we went from a few people to a lot. of people and uh it just wore on me I. think it was just it was time for for a. change so yes I did I felt lighter. um almost instantly and I'm sure there's. a myriad of reasons that went into that. I don't I don't even begin to try or. understand all of them. um but I know that I definitely felt. better and it was the right choice yeah. well every guest that comes on the show. gets a present. so sweet here's your gift thank you sir.

you got any guesses. heavy. it's got some weight to it it's got some. weight yeah uh you want a hint yeah. y'all let you ask a question one. question yeah one hint is it food. yes. that's right you can ask another one. [Laughter]. it's legal in all 50 states. it's believe it or not it's food and. it's legal in all 50 states we'll see. when you open it go ahead rip it open.

why is the legality of food have to deal. things. [Music]. oh sweet. gummy bears that's right so you don't. know me uh other than what we've gotten. to know each other but my wife will tell. you like I'm a I'm a candy Hound me too. like late at night you know she's gone. to bed and I'm watching TV I'll bust out. the gummy bears the gummy worms yeah. totally fine awesome dude I appreciate.

that not to contribute to your heart. disease but you know there's it's zero. fat there's no cholesterol. right on thanks brother my pleasure. [Applause]. but um. yeah let's start let's just Dive Right. In let's start with childhood where'd. you grow up. yeah I grew up in Dover Delaware. um. yeah the first date. uh a kind of a normal upbringing um I.

lived in the central part of the state. which is you know a lot of rural. Farmland small community kind of. everybody knows everybody it's grown. over the years but it's still kind of. the same I can go home and go in the. grocery store and see somebody I know. yeah you know all these years later. uh yeah childhood divorce but I I I say. that for two reasons one is to make. people aware but two to say that you. know mine wasn't that bad it had its. moments but um both my parents remarried. when I was fairly young I think I was.

eight or nine years old by the time they. had both remarried and and I ended up. with with two other good sets of people. in my life. um my step parents on both sides were. every bit as much a part of my. upbringing and my character and who I am. as as my mom and dad like I say that as. a positive I think I had some fairly. decent Role Models as a young kid. growing up. so. yeah. um played Sports you know baseball was. probably my my primary thing.

um my dad was a college baseball coach. at the time I think I was competitive. from a very young age were you good at. it uh yeah I was I was a good ball. player uh I think that's where a lot of. my competitiveness comes from. um was you know wanting you didn't just. want to be good at it you wanted to be. good enough to make the the All-Star. team at the end of the year so you could. keep playing ball like there were a. myriad of reasons but. but yeah I think a lot of my competitive. drive and things like that came from.

um Athletics as a child but uh yeah I um. in moving into my teens early teens I. probably was a little misbehaved I think. some of it was um. some of it was just where I was you know. it's Delaware there's yeah there's not a. lot of stuff to do it's not like we had. a big city or we didn't have mountains. you know we had the beach in the in the. summer but for the most part you know as. a teenage boy you're just looking for. something to do to pass the time so what.

are you how are you misbehaving uh I. think I started drinking pretty early. um. just getting into trouble uh you know. back then you didn't uh if you did. something stupid as a kid in the state. of Delaware when in in that time frame. uh cops just drove you home you know. they knew your parents or they were. connected somehow so you didn't get. arrested or charged with things you just. sort of got taken home so I think I was. fortunate in that respect but. uh but yeah I you know kind of survived.

all that but. getting into a little bit of mischief. and being a handful uh for my mom in. particular loving mom. um. I knew that I needed some structure in. my life. um so towards the tail into High School. uh really my junior year I think is when. I started looking at. um the military as an option and it was. for a myriad of reasons one was because. I needed some structure two was as much.

as I wanted to go off to college and. continue to play baseball I felt like I. was gonna piss it away for lack of a. better term yeah like that I didn't have. I think I was aware enough that I didn't. have the self-discipline that I would. have ended up screwing it up and I. didn't want to do that. and then I had. military in the family both my. grandfather's my mom and dad's side both. served in World War II. um and I always say my mom's grandfather.

um he was in the Army Air corps but he. was in the Pacific Theater most of his. time spent like four years during World. War II overseas oh wow which is a pretty. substantial amount of time got into some. trouble while he was in the service you. know typical. young service member thing particularly. in the time of War but I got him I was. the youngest of all the grandkids on. that side of the family and I got him at. a point in his life where he started to. open up as an old man and tell some. stories and oh [ __ ] and I just happened. to be like the one grandkid that was.

still around so you know you're sick. from school you go to your grandparents. you're it's a weekend and your parents. are going away doing something you go to. your grandparents so I ended up spending. quite a bit of time with him at a point. in his life when he started to share. some of those things so I got a lot of. stories from World War II probably some. stuff I shouldn't have heard at the age. that I was. but as I've said before he he always. talked about that stuff the good and the. bad with such reverence like it was so. it was such a part of who he was and. we're talking whatever that was you know.

50 years later or 40 years later or. whatever. um that I think it stuck with me I think. that that pride of having served your. country in a time of need. um the people that were around him when. he was in the service and what they. meant to him. um and his time spent even though it. left led to some tough times afterwards. it was just so important to him and I. think that had an impact on me and it's. why I ended up in the Army were you did. you have siblings I did I had an older. brother I do I had a I have an older. brother that's that's eight years older.

than me. um so I sort of grew up like an only. child uh because you know by the time I. was. I don't know I guess I was 10 years old. my brother was moving on to college so. interesting and then my parents. remarried um and then my father had. another child my half-sister with my. stepmom and she's almost 10 years. younger than me so big widespread three. different people. uh my brother's awesome but we're like I. think because of that spread we are. Polar Opposites like we're two just. different people no good yeah I got a.

theory but it seems like the majority of. guys that wind up in uh some type of. career in Special Operations are always. the oldest oh but yeah the majority of. them from from the people that I've. interviewed uh are but that makes sense. eight year Gap you don't see a lot of. close like siblings where the younger. ones join yeah but were you drawn to. combat. coming out of high school or I think I.

was I've never nobody's ever asked me. that I don't know that I thought about. it like that or maybe not combat were. you drawn to be in some type of a. Commando or is at a at a high level oh. absolutely yeah so yeah I mean all jokes. aside we all laugh about this but you. know I grew up in the 80s you know there. were there were some good movies back. then yeah. you know and a couple of them in that. stretch where like the Navy Seal movie. with Charlie Sheen uh the Delta Force. movie with Chuck Norris and Lee Marvin.

uh you know the old John Wayne the Green. Berets like yeah I think I was. influenced by some of that. um but also the point I was gonna make. was you know all my grandfather's. stories about being in the service were. about being at war no kidding you know. it wasn't like he had any like peacetime. stories like they were all World War II. overseas deployed at War so that was my. frame of reference I think from an early. age was. that's why you go do that because when.

the time comes you need to go over there. and and do the best you can for your. country and I think that so yeah I think. it was definitely on my mind. um and then trying to come in the. service yes I had done some research you. know we didn't have the internet back. then but it was you know there were. books and things that had been written. um and I think I did some homework and. kind of found all the information I. could I had a buddy in school whose. brother uh I wouldn't say buddy but. there's a guy that I knew that had a. brother that was a Air Force combat. controller and so at one point.

we were talking and I could express some. interest in going in the service and he. was telling me about this thing in the. Air Force and I was like wow I was in. Dover Delaware as an Air Force Town I'd. never even thought about joining the Air. Force like it just wasn't a like I. wanted to be a gun Toten you know. infantry manner Airborne Ranger or. whatever but he gave me the uh it was. you know it was like that old dot matrix. printed. um but it was the CCT pipeline the CCT. and PJ Pipeline and all the training. that they go through and I was I was.

like wow like that wait I get to jump. out of planes and scuba dive and sniper. school and like all these things like. they do all that before they're even. like assigned to a position I knew. nothing about it I just saw all that. stuff and I thought that's amazing so. yeah I went through a process I went to. see basically every recruiter and had. conversations with them and and uh they. were pretty entertaining but I asked. each one about its respective Special. Operations and how do I get to that and. they were all kind of the same it was. like you have to pick a certain career. field. um whereas and you can volunteer and if.

you don't make it through initial. training like with the Navy like if you. don't make it through then you go be. whatever profession it is that you chose. blah blah blah. um and I was fairly disappointed with. all of those questions and answers and. then kind of at the 11th Hour the army. an army recruiter not the one I had. originally talked to sort of came out. and grabbed me and said you know hey I. heard you talking and can I show you a.

video and give you some info and he knew. a little more about the Army Rangers and. so yeah I was I was hooked on a Army. Ranger contract. um knowing that that was my path to. Special Operations because that's what I. wanted to do. nice. how old were you when you joined uh. uh 17 when I originally signed up 17. yeah but 18 by the time I went off to. the service. I graduated high school in in. 95 and then went to basic training at.

the end of that summer I had a job down. the beach I was an ocean lifeguard so I. wanted to get like my full oh nice. yeah yeah I wanted to enjoy that laugh. but that was a rewarding experience you. know what still to this day and anybody. that's ever been there or or been. through like ocean lifeguard training or. like rookie weeks or you know they do. their own version of a hell week and uh. that was some of the hardest [ __ ] I've. ever done really as a an in shape and I.

was a skinny wiry little dude so like I. could run and things like that but I I. was a skinny guy but rookie week. lifeguard training to get to earn a spot. on the beach Patrol was one of the. hardest physical things I've ever done. swimming and running I mean it's. probably a lot of what you guys do in. Buds and I don't have that you know yeah. experience but uh yeah a lot of the. things that I did in Special Operations. and courses that I went to and. selections that I went through yeah I. think part of the digging into how do I.

get through this was honestly some of. those memories about how bad that one. week of my life sucked when I was a kid. no [ __ ] I wasn't expecting that at all I. was referring to the women yeah. but uh well it's it's probably the best. job to have at the beach I'll just say. that yeah uh but yeah no it was a good. time so I enjoyed that last summer and. then and yeah I went in the service when. I was 18 right after the end of that. summer what were your parents thinking. about were they behind it they wanted. you to go in the military uh I think it. was a combination.

um you know I think they both wanted me. to go to college uh I think my dad. wanted to at least me to give a shot at. playing ball in the net at the next. level. um because I had some Talent uh my mom I. think my mom was scared to death. um. looking back all these years later I've. never asked her about it but I think you. know my mom was a little kid when my. grandfather was going through some. things post World War II you know so he. got back whatever year he got home 44-45.

somewhere in there uh and she was born. in 1950 and so a lot of her early. childhood he struggled with addiction. and some other things uh and as she says. all these years later the the man that. you got. as a grandchild it's a completely. different man than I had when I was that. age yeah. um but uh but yeah so I think she had. some fears from that um that made her a. little worried about it but interesting. but for the most part they were they. were good with the decision. um.

and yeah that end of that summer I. shipped off the base training. right on. what where did you go what was your. first unit that you showed up to after. basic yeah basic uh Airborne school and. then and then the ranger indoctrination. program or rip. um and so my first unit was third ranger. battalion oh no [ __ ] you you did get. right in I did I did it I mean some. there were some hiccups along the way. that had nothing to do with me. um but yeah I ended up going to rip uh I.

ended up. getting recycled and rip because I. missed a recall formation on a weekend. um in the middle of the course like two. weeks in and uh instead of kicking us. out there were like 11 of us they just. recycled us all so I did Rip twice uh. which was cool because I met a bunch of. guys early on in my Ranger career that I. still know to this day I got two classes. instead of one of you guys that did that. you know what I mean you know how it is. yeah but uh but yeah I got through it. went third ranger battalion. um and this was you know 95.96 so you.

know at the time you know you had. B company 375 is the company that was. involved in in Somalia in the Black Hawk. Downs incident in 93. um so there was a lot of and then you. still had like Grenada Raiders and. Panama guys that were still around the. Battalion so. um even though it's peacetime Warren we. weren't involved in anything at the time. um there was quite a bit of Legacy in in. history in third range of Italian yeah. but there were showed up with a [ __ ] ton. of experience on board can you.

I haven't had any Rangers on yet. um. and I understand the difference but I. think a lot of the civilian population. do not understand the difference. there's tabbed Rangers and there's. Schoolhouse Rangers and it is confusing. for a lot of people can you kind of. clean that up a little bit yeah I mean. Ranger school is a is an army school. um for a lot of years I don't know what. they classify it as now but for a lot of. years you know the people Define it as a. leadership course and I think it still. is to this day you know it's about.

uh leading small units in combat. um preparation and understanding of. operations orders patrolling uh. basically small unit tactics in various. environments. uh Ranger regiment is a unit. um so. you when you first go to the ranger. regiment you are not Ranger qualified. you haven't been to Ranger school even. though you're serving in the ranger. regiment part of the pipeline for you as. a young soldier in the rage regiment is.

to attend Ranger school so typically. guys do it early on in their career when. they're a young private or a specialist. they go to Ranger school they earn the. ranger tab then they come back and. they're prepared. um you know mentally intellectually for. that next leadership position which is a. team leader. so yeah you have anyone can go to Ranger. school it's typically part of the. pipeline and infantry officers and. combat arms officers in the Army. typically they go to Ranger school right. away. um to gain that leadership and.

experience training and that hardship. and overcoming that before they go out. and Lead troops so good so yeah there's. there is a difference there's lots of. guys in the service that have never been. an Army Ranger that have a ranger Tab. and are called Ranger qualified so the I. think I may have misspoke I think is it. a regimental Ranger versus a tabbed. Ranger or is a Schoolhouse Ranger versus. a tab Ranger there's a how do I say it. yeah how is how do you say it if you. ever served in the Rangers so in the.

ranger regiment first second or third. ranger battalion or or the regiment. itself you're you're an Army Ranger okay. um if you went to school but never. served in the ranger regiment you are. Ranger qualified okay that's how most. guys in the Army refer to it all right. so like I had heartache with that for a. lot of years because I know a lot of. guys did so I went to the regiment. um as a young private and a year after. being there. um I had an alcohol-related incident I. had I had a DUI uh and at the time if.

you had an alcohol related incident you. had to leave so I left the regiment. after about a year and change for having. this alcohol-related incident so even. though I served there I trained there. and I was a part of that organization I. left well then I never ended up going to. Ranger school like it just never. happened the way path in my career took. I never did it and so for years people. would be like were you an Army Ranger. and I would be like hesitant to say yes.

because like I just described to you. well yeah I was but my brain would go. Kinda Yeah like but were you you know. what I mean like I had but the reality. was as time went by and I listened to. more guys that have been there for a. really long time is you know whether you. spent a week a day or or 20 years in the. regimen if you served in the regiment. you can call yourself an Army Ranger. um and So eventually I got over it and. that year that short little time that I. had in that organization. you know I got more training and and.

leadership development and that stretch. of time than I would have gotten in. several years in a conventional unit. um so when something bad happened like. that and I had to like pull my boots up. and overcome it I think the fact that I. had done all of those things in that. short period of time contributed to my. success when I had to go out and. overcome this Obstacle of having just. made a mistake. so when I ended up in the regular army I. think it allowed me to more quickly. adjust to having the personal confidence.

that if I keep at this in Excel I can. get back on track where I need to be but. that that took a few years what's the. what's the culture like at the ranger. regiment uh especially you said you got. in at 94 95 95 96 yeah in in Somalia was. 93 yeah so it's three years later. um yeah culture wise I mean it was the. hardest train in place in the Army like. you were always doing something so you. got up at five o'clock in the morning. went did PT every morning as a platoon.

or a squad. um always pushing hard you know you had. to be able to match your PT tests and. all that like. um yeah it was some hard charging hard. training dudes uh which wasn't. necessarily the case in the rest of the. conventional Army oh good yeah so when. you leave that and having that been your. only Norm after basic training. everyone's school and all that and then. you go out to Big service and then you. know there's dudes that are overweight. and there's guys that can barely pass.

their push-ups or whatever on the PT. test it's a pretty eye-opening. experience because you I had no idea I. had no frame of reference that the rest. of the army even in combat arms could. frankly be. like that yeah. um so yeah it was a it was easy to excel. in that environment. um but it was it was a pretty big. culture shock going from one extreme to. the other when I don't want to go into. it yet but when did you did you go from. Ranger regiment to.

conventional or did you go somewhere. else and then go to Conventional no I. went to Conventional I went from third. ranger battalion to third entry division. so I went from being an Airborne Ranger. serving in the regiment to a mechanized. infantry battalion where I was riding. around in tracks and tanks because I was. a 11 Charlie so in the regiment I was in. weapons platoon I was a mortar guy. um and because I was on the lemon. Charlie they had a few more options with. me than they did like a standard. Rifleman 11 Bravo.

um so they sent me to to what's called. kelly Hill where third infantry division. was still on Fort Benning so all I did. was move across post which I think was. also made it hard yeah because I just. left over there damn yeah now I'm over. here uh but you know most guys went they. were what's called worldwide assignment. where they and you go away to some other. installation or somewhere but because I. was a motor guy they sent me to third ID. okay I'm I've worked with a lot of other. soft units uh being a seal and then uh. so my time at the agency I for some.

reason I never ever got to work with the. Rangers wow so I'm interested in the. culture because I don't know about it. when you get in there you know in a lot. of soft units. the entire team's involved in Mission. planning and putting together Target. packages and all that kind of stuff and. and everybody has their specific duties. and everybody is. I guess what I'm trying to say is all. ideas are welcome to the table sure you.

might get called a fool if you got a. dumbass [ __ ] idea but yeah but. there's always you know there's always a. way to get your idea in there and it is. oh it's encouraged is it like that in. the ranger regiment it wasn't when I was. there so Ranger regiment back then was. you know they were the best trained. Airborne infantrymen on the planet so. they shop more they jumped more they. fast rope they did some things that. conventional forces didn't do but they. were still run like an infantry rifle.

platoon okay so you had four squads you. had team two team leaders in each Square. team leaders and Squad leaders platoon. Sergeant platoon leader first sergeant. company Commander like they were LED. like a like a standard rifle company. very ranked structured very ranked. structured absolutely. um yeah you had to earn your keep at the. lower levels before you were con you. know moved up the ranks and were a. non-commissioned officer and in charge. of people. um but yeah it was very much LED like. traditional. any rifle platoon anywhere in the Army. oh good yeah nowadays and they do they.

do a lot more than they ever used to. um I would imagine it's still run. relatively the same though because. regardless the amount of training that. you've received. you're still an 18 year old kid you're. still a 19 year old kid uh and and. lack the combat and personal experience. to make appropriate decisions so I. imagine they still run it mostly the. same even though they do a lot more. things like CQB wasn't really a part of.

a lot of what regiment did when I first. got there you know now those guys are. just they're an extension of Jay sock. and hit Targets on their own and yeah. they're fully capable of doing all those. things yeah it seems like uh. I mean everybody's done a lot of growing. after 20 years of war from the outside. looking in to all these different. units and interviewing guys it's to me. it appears that. the ranger regiment is the one that has. probably grown the most uh.

professionally and and. I guess coming for more they were. pre-911 to where they are now. seems to me they've done the most. changing uh is a is a whole unit but. would you. agree yeah I mean everybody's evolved I. think what what the global war on terror. g y what G watt did was. it got a lot of people doing. basically direct action missions where. that necessarily wasn't their previous.

profile you know as an example you had. you know odas you had Green Berets out. there whose specialty is uncommissioned. Warfare and buy through and with stuff. you know using and training indigenous. forces to achieve an objective amongst a. bunch of other things but you know they. were doing D.A they were doing raids and. assaults and yeah sure maybe with some. indage at some point but they were also. doing them unilaterally like that. that happened because of gy and so many. missions and optimbo and all that stuff.

and I think it happened across the soft. Community yeah and I think that happened. to the regiment as well I think they got. pulled in and utilized in a lot more. circumstances than they necessarily. weren't built for you know they were. built for Airfield seizures they were. built for jumping in to you know like. just cause and Panama or 83 and Grenada. they were built to jump in season. Airfield eliminate the threat on that. Airfield and establish an airhead to. bring on follow-on forces to do other. things. um or quick reaction stuff or whatever. what they morphed into was an.

independent assault force that had a. capability equivalent to most special. operations units so I personally don't. think it was the correct thing but I. think it's just what happened because we. were so busy yeah um so they definitely. grew and expanded in my opinion I mean. when we. later on in my career you know. I watched. how we utilized the ranger regiment go. from utilizing them in support of us. to utilizing them as another action arm.

so that we could do more things at a. time oh and and you know there's pros. and cons to that you expand your. Workforce and your ability to hit more. targets at a time. um and do more on the battlefield. um but I think you lose a little. something I think there's some things. that are brought to the table with. season special operators that you know. you don't necessarily get with an 18 or. 19 year old kid no I mean it's probably. and I don't know because I don't have. the experience but it's probably similar.

in the seal Community you know you have. the seal Community which is guys from 18. or 19 to the end of their career but. then you have SEAL Team Six which is you. know more seasoned seals that have been. there done that and learned from those. experiences and I'm sure there's some. huge differences between the two. absolutely. did you what kind of stuff were you. doing after you got through the training. pipeline at the regiment did uh they had. a pretty good they had a cycle so you.

know you'd have stretches and this is my. my recollection but you know we'd have. Cycles where we were doing a lot of. shooting and a lot of range time. um and then we would do like um we would. do what they called fixed wing and. rotary Wing bilats So fixed Wing was. like you do a lot of jumping and. Airfield seizures for a stretch and. different planes and whatever and then. you'd do rotoruing by lats where you do. a lot of you know infills with helos and. fast rope training and all that you like. you sort of had a cyclical thing and. then you had your like you're like ready. Force cycle where you were the on-call.

Battalion in the event that you know. somebody hits 9-1-1 for the United. States Army you had to be ready to go. anywhere and I don't know what it's like. 18 hours or less or something but. um so it was a typical training cycle. of of preparation and training range. time the various bilats Mount training. where you're doing Urban stuff uh. patrolling training. um MTT so little courses like you know. basic demolition or whatever those other.

skills were uh and then you had your. like pre-deployment phase later on if. you were deploying back then it was just. your prep for if something happened. phase and then you had your down phase. where you weren't on alert cycle and. they would do block leave and things. like that but. yeah I think the biggest difference for. me between your regiment and when I went. out to the regular army was in the. regular army there'd be whole days where. you did nothing like dudes would just be. sitting in their Barracks rooms like. doing correspondence courses or hide now. basically and it was kind of accepted uh.

looking back years later I know that. like budgets and things have a lot to do. with that yeah like conventional units. just don't get millions and millions of. dollars to buy ammunition and rounds to. be out on the range of training. um whereas you know people that fall. under the Special Operations bubble did. um so it subsequently increases. Proficiency in all those things but uh. but yeah there were a lot of time where. you're just doing nothing and that was a. shock. did you deploy with the regiment.

no not to combat um because it was peace. time I did a deployment per se with them. we went to Germany uh we we. jumped in and did a 40 mile movement to. an objective. um and a 40-mile movement a 40-mile. movement through Germany. and uh I want to say. on foot I want to say Stan sailing or. Crystal General where Crystal was. in the regiment he might have been third.

ranger battalion Commander at the time. and I think Colonel lozinski maybe was. the 75th but regardless they they wanted. to prove that the regiment had the. capability to jump in Behind Enemy Lines. and move an excessive distance like that. and then still have effects on target. um so we did we did a 40 mile infield. uh over a couple of days and I was a. mortar guy so I had like a base plate. and you know I had 120 pound rucksack. and skinny little 135 down kit or. whatever I was back then but it was.

awesome like it sucked but it was it was. neat. to do something like that and go we just. walked 40 miles and then yeah and then. hit a Target how long did that take. I think it took us like two and a half. days. yeah maybe three as it was a long time. ago yeah but that was really neat and. then we did some stuff with the Germans. we did some cross training you know got. our German shoots sneer Marksmanship. badge did a did a foreign wing jump and. some other things and so that was. literally like my first year in the Army.

so like I thought all that was just. normal yeah that was going on all over. the place uh and it definitely was not. so how did you wind up in the. conventional Army. I got a DUI that was it that was it yeah. I got a DUI and uh and they sent me to. third amateur Division and yeah so next. thing you know I'm a mechanized. infantryman uh instead of jumping out of. planes running around in a tank holy. [ __ ] how did that feel when you got the. word hey you're done here it's over uh. pretty awful. um when it happened my my section.

started my mortar section starting at. the time so the the E6 that was in. charge of the mortar section he got a. DUI the same night. um and so they kind of were making an. example out of us but it didn't happen. right away like that stuff happened and. we were. I guess punished for lack of a better. term we both got a general letter of. reprimand that stays with you for your. whole career which was terrifying to me. as a young private. um but we didn't leave we actually did. the Germany thing after we got in. trouble. because they wanted like a full.

Workforce they wanted all the bodies to. go do this exercise in Germany and spend. this time over there so I actually had. good things happen in the regiment to. where there was a point where I was like. maybe maybe I'm not leaving like maybe. they just forgot about it but no that no. the time came and uh and I got orders. when we got home from Germany and I left. damn um but yeah third ID third ID was a. different experience that's some really. good leaders there uh some funny leaders. and then some real pieces of [ __ ] that. were in the organization and and I think. what that taught me was in every.

organization in the military and it's. probably true in the Navy too. um there's turds in every punch bowl. it's just depending on what level you're. at there's less. like you know there's good and bad in. every organization it's just uh it's the. percentages. um and so. um I had some great folks some great. leadership some people that changed my. career uh and a battalion commander in. third interest division Infantry. Division that was probably the. difference between me getting out of the. army after four years feeling defeated. like. um like I got in trouble and I wouldn't.

be able to overcome it to me. re-enlisting and staying in the Army and. and continuing what ended up being a. 20-year career damn. what um. what kind of stuff are you doing a third. ID other than sitting in the barracks. again so there's going to be a recurring. theme here all right like I think I I. think throughout the course of my life. with all the good and all the bad that's. happened to me I've just had good timing. like I've been certain places at certain.

times where I was just fortunate to get. to experience whatever it was. and so third ID at first I was like this. is awful like I'm in them I'm down at. the motor pool changing oil and. breaking track on a tank on Mondays like. that's my Monday every Monday but what. ended up happening was. um so post. post First Gulf War uh remember we did. the um we controlled all the airspace. over Iraq and we patrolled the airspace.

well somewhere in that phase was called. operation. desert Thunder which is Saddam was being. goofy again so we shut down the airspace. again and then we launched all of these. like exercises in the desert of Kuwait. to sort of a show of force and remind. him like we'll come beat you down again. if you act a fool. so we ended up deploying like an entire. mechanized Brigade ended up deploying I.

think they called it like operation. intrinsic action on our side but it was. uh it was the overarching thing was. called Operation Desert Thunder we got. an Expeditionary Medal for that even. though it was like peace time and we. weren't at war with anybody we forward. deployed to Kuwait right on the border. of Iraq but what it turned into was six. months of living in the desert you know. building. I think they called them cabools or. something but it was basically a dirt. bermed giant compound we erected all the.

tents we filled all the sandbags. basically Cradle to grave from nothing. but flat desert to an entire fob for a. better term forward operating base. um and then conducted Maneuvers out of. there and what we had was so all of the. war stock from the first Gulf War was. still in Kuwait so we had ammunition and. artillery rounds and mortar rounds for. days so for this six month period we did. live fire stuff like literally like four. and five times a week I shot more rounds.

in that six months than probably most. guys have spent an entire career in an. infantry mortar unit ever shot and it. was because it was this big. demonstration of force so we got really. good at what we did so even with the. with the studs and the Duds in the. platoon that I was in we turned into a. really effective cohesive unit because. we had nothing to do but train we were. sitting in the desert for deployed like. we were prepping to go to war tomorrow. damn um and it turned out for me like. leadership wise it turned out to be a.

great experience understanding what. being deployed felt like and being away. from your family and you know as a young. guy filling sandbags and burning [ __ ]. you know all the all the uncomfortable. stuff that goes with it uh that did suck. at the time but when you look back on. years later you're like man I'm lucky. that happened like very few people get. an opportunity like that yeah so it. turned out to be really good and then. came back from that I'm sorry did a lot. of the guys look up to you because you. came from the regiment yeah I think that.

made it easier. um I think the. the leadership the ncos saw early that I. had been exposed to good leaders and. then I was. I was hungry. um and motivated more so than a lot of. the guys that they were used to so they. sort of took to me. um the younger guys did have more. respect for you because as far as they. were concerned you were an Army Ranger. it didn't matter that year. that you left you had done that and they. hadn't so they definitely looked up to. you but I sort of aggressively pursued.

pursued leadership roles when I was. there once I figured out I could. um like that I could be the the PT stud. and push other guys to excel in physical. fitness and and then I could lead and. make guys go train and do the right. thing like I saw that leadership like. that I saw that younger guys responded. to it and I saw an opportunity to get. myself back on track and I pursued it. that's awesome I wasn't expecting you to. say that the the leadership liked you.

because a lot of guys that come from a. unit like that go to Conventional side. and then there's. there's some insecurities that come out. in the leadership because you came from. a soft unit well funny story I've told. this one other time. um so when I first got there my platoon. Sergeant uh and if he ever hears one of. these things I hope to God the man finds. me on social media and reaches out to me. because I love him to death this day and. I think really highly of him but he was. a master sergeant so an immortal platoon. it was real rank heavy you had a you had.

an E8 platoon Sergeant which was rare. you had two E7 section starts and then a. bunch of e6s and e5s Etc et cetera and. he was our platoon siren and so I show. up day one sign into the unit in. processing or whatever and I finally get. to my platoon and he brings me into his. like platoon office and he sitting at. the desk and he's this giant man I. started Donald P Blackman. huge huge like NFL alignment size dude. you know on the overweight side NFL. lineman size dude right and I say that.

lovingly. um but he's he's like have a seat and. he's talking to me and he said some cool. things in the beginning he's like hey. you know I want you to to I don't want. you to beat yourself up like you're. you're a 19 year old kid you made a. mistake you you got spanked for it. um learn your lesson grow from it and. move on he's like I'm not going to carry. that into this I'm not going to hold it. over your head no one's going to look. down on you and I'm not going to let. them look down on you like he said some. really positive things. and then he paused and he said I want to.

ask you a few questions I said okay and. he said ranger battalion I was never in. the range of Battalion he's like but you. know I've seen him and you know. what they've done in the past and. learned a little about them and I said. yes sergeant and he said uh there's not. a lot of black fellas in the ranger. regiment. and he was a black guy. and I said no Sergeant there's not and. I'm I'm scared I'm scared right like I'm. in before we even started even though he. had said all these positive things like.

he buttered me up to ask me something. difficult so I'm a little nervous and he. said not a lot of black fellas in the. regiment hunt I said no sir there's not. he said how many black guys do you think. are in the ranger regiment how many. black guys are in third ranger battalion. I said four just like that and he like. jumped in a seat and he went you know. there's only four and me I go well I. mean when you're in the dining facility. starting it's not that hard like there's. just not that many guys I said I think. there's like four. and he goes huh and he leans forward in. his chair and he leans over the desk to.

close the distance and he says why do. you think that is. and I thought in probably a split that. second my brain went [ __ ] if I say. whatever. he's gonna know that I'm lying to him. and I've now set the conditions for our. relationship for the rest of my time. here. if I tell him what I really think. he might punch me in the face or he. might respect what I have to say.

and so I rolled the dice and I said I'm. just going to tell him the truth or at. least what I really think to be the. truth. remember I was a notion lifeguard. and I said. honestly starting I think it's because. black guys have trouble passing the swim. test. and he paused and then he busted out. laughing and he said you're goddamn. right I can't swim a lick. [ __ ] and we had a laugh and and you know. and he said right then and there he said. you're all right Van Zant he's like uh I.

like you and I think you're gonna do. just fine and so fast forward a while. later in the platoon and we you know one. night in in Kuwait like we had a long. conversation about it he's like yeah man. he's like they come from different. places he's like but a lot of black guys. that end up in the service they grew up. in the inner city or they grew up. someplace where they didn't have pools. they didn't have access they didn't swim. yeah so you can call it a stereotype you. know nowadays it's like people will come. after you if you said something like. that there was no there was nothing.

racist or anything in any of that it was. it was a matter of fact and it was true. to the regiment and. and in a lot of units and I think they. came up with ways to combat that like. yeah you know what we do have some. people that grow up and don't swim so. let's afford them an opportunity to. learn and to practice so they can be. successful in some of those courses and. they're not limited by their background. or experience prior service. um so yeah it was a it was a funny. moment that led to a much deeper. relationship and a more honest. relationship between the two of us uh.

and he was a really good leader like he. was a smart guy he pushed us when we. were in the desert uh he genuinely cared. about the Army and he cared about me and. I knew that. um and and same with you know my. Battalion Commander that basically. talked me into staying in the service. you know those guys took a personal. interest in me as a human being and it. stuck with me forever like. as a leader you know and then even now. like. you can have an impact on a single. individual's life sometimes just with. the words that you use yeah and.

showing them that you care or taking the. time to listen to their story or to. share yours can make a difference in. their life for you know [ __ ] 10 20. years to come and those are just a. couple examples of people that had an. impact on me that early after a mistake. uh that changed the course of what I did. that's awesome. how long did you wind up spending at the. third ID about. two and a half years probably. um I was coming up on you know you can.

re-enlist uh a year out 12 months out. from when you're time to get out of the. service date was. um and I and like I said I had that. conversation with the Battalion. Commander at the time. um I was really stressed about my letter. reprimand My Punishment hurting me and. like slowing me down and he was just. very reassuring currently was his name. that's another one that I wish would. track me down if he ever heard something. that I said on social media because I'd. love to hear how he's doing and tell him. like sir you changed my life but uh.

um. he convinced me to to re-enlist uh we. had a joke and I said I don't really. want to stay here sir as much as good a. time as I had like I wanted to get back. to jumping out of planes and being a. paratrooper at least. um and start working my way back towards. Special Operations and the best place I. thought to do that was Fort Bragg so he. agreed and he helped me out and I ended. up reenlisting for to go to the 82nd at. Fort Bragg and I thought all right. there's I'm one step back closer I'm. gonna go back to jumping out of planes.

being an infantry man in a in a Airborne. unit. um at a midbrag which is like kind of. the Hub and the best place to be if. you're going to continue to go down that. path yeah so. so you were like a no [ __ ] very. direct to the point no matter what the. consequences are from a very young age. because those are two tough questions. that you got. and you answered them honestly that. takes a lot of people. yeah entire years to get to that point. probably to a fault.

um yeah I mean I was a humor guy too. like I I think I've always. tried to find funny in the situation so. in periods of high stress I tend to. resort to something humorous like I. didn't say that but there was a bit of. my response to to master and Blackman. that I hoped he would laugh yeah you. know like I rolled the dice yeah but and. and I and that was true that was true to. the time and probably you know still. some issues today they've just changed a. lot of things and made it better for.

people but. but yeah I think I was trying to get him. to laugh a little bit too. so yeah speak your mind hope for the. best yeah. doesn't always work out like it does it. but um we're very similar in that aspect. but so you moved over to the 82nd. Airborne. yeah I moved over the 82nd uh. again I was a mortar guy I immediately. took a mortar section in a line company. I was in elf company second three two. five. um. the white Falcons.

our sister Battalion was the Blue. Falcons I was just glad I wasn't well. who does that yeah real quick was there. no option to go back to the regiment. I didn't know. um that was not a question I ever asked. somebody asked me that like last year. and I'm like I don't know I don't know. if I could have gone back or not in my. mind because when you go through the. reindeer inocrination program and all. that stuff you get RFS. whatever that stands I don't even. remember but if you get booted my.

opinion was that you could never come. back so I don't know the answer to that. question I don't know if you could or. you couldn't but it never crossed my. mind it was like I got to do this it was. great. I I [ __ ] it up. um now I'm on the path back so what's. the next step for me so yeah so in the. 82nd I was. enjoyed what I was doing I enjoyed being. back and jumping out of planes but I. needed to figure out how to get back on. the path to be a special operator.

yeah so Alpha County second three two. five the white Falcons. um I was a mortar section Sergeant so I. had my own guys I had my own mortar team. two teams. um I ran their training I you know did. their counseling I was leading troops. um and I was also fortunate in that as. the the mortar section sergeant like I. didn't have a platoon or a platoon. Sergeant so I was basically a platoon. leader and a platoon Sergeant at the. same time so I had three rifle platoons. and the mortar section so I would be in.

meetings the platoon Sergeant the NCO. non-commissioned officer related. meetings but then I would also have to. go to the officer meetings with the. company Commander the first sergeant and. all the lieutenants that were in the. platoons. um so it was a really good experience. for me seeing you know non-commissioned. officer leadership versus officer. leadership uh and I kind of ended up in. a point where I was getting to know and. sort of shop earning a lot of the new. lieutenants that would come in you know. their platoon sign was an E7 he was this. big intimidating guy that they were. scared to ask questions to you know I.

was at E5 promotable you know. low-level non-commissioned officer and. because I was approachable and and joked. and laughed and stuff I think it made it. easier for them to like talk to me and. ask me questions so I ended up sort of. in a I don't know in a role where I had. a good relationship with new lieutenants. that would come in and kind of help them. along the way. um that turned into. um meaning of young Lieutenant named. Paul Karen. um Paul and I became friends very.

quickly he was a West pointer. um. just a good dude just like a just wanted. to be a good leader like wanted to train. guys wanted to make soldiers better at. what they did so that they could win the. fight and survive on the battlefield and. I think I saw that right away very much. a Boy Scout a little dorky but like not. in a bad way more like an eagle scout. kind of way yeah and I kind of. appreciated it. um didn't know anything about his family. but. um ended up finding out later on that. his dad was was the four-star major it.

was Doug Perrin. um and so Paul before I knew that had. had a lot of conversations with me about. going SF versus uh other things he asked. me why I wanted to do it and I said at. this point I knew enough in the service. and now I'm back at Bragg I knew I. wanted to end up. um if I was capable as a Delta operator. but I assumed that I had to go be a. Green Beret or a Army Ranger which I'd.

already messed that up I had to go be a. Green Beret to get there and he said why. why would you do that and I said what do. you mean I said it's a stepping stone. like I'm a young dude I can't just go. straight to be an adult operator they're. not going to take me I have no combat. experience I'm young blah blah. and he said well yeah that's not how it. works like you can submit. to be asked to attend selection for for. that side of the house and you don't. have to be a Green Beret he's like you. know the minimum requirements are this. they do a briefing of this time and I.

didn't even put together how this guy. knew all this like this is before I knew. his old man was was the units are major. he'd basically grown up as a kid with. his dad in that Organization no [ __ ] so. he's withholding all this yeah I don't. think he I don't think he was. withholding. I think it at a certain point I think he. thought he had told me or I knew okay. but he always used to say his dad was a. combat engineer his dad was a 12 Bravo. and when I would ask him he would say. yeah he's a sergeant major like that's. all he would say he never said he's the. Delta Force sergeant major.

right yeah so one day we're coming back. from training me and Paul we were. setting up some training for the platoon. I had moved there's a point in there. where. he left the line company and he went to. the reconnaissance platoon to the. scalpatoon and he asked me to come with. him when he did it and I was like I'm an. 11 Charlie like I'm not a 11 Bravo. regular immature man and those are. regular immature men billets matter of. fact they're Ranger qualified instrument. billets. and he's he was like why don't you come. with me and I was like how do I do that.

and he was like it's easy you do a 4187. like I said he's a brilliant guy Joe. 4187 to the commander requesting an MOS. change from 11 Charlie to 11 Bravo then. he goes the commander signs off on it we. go to retention they do some paperwork. they'll cut you orders for the MOs. change and then we'll move you over to. scalpatoon you can take a team and I was. like but I'm a mortar guy and he was. like Chris you know more about small. unit tactics and you do a better job. like re leading your squad than than 99. of the rifle Squad leaders that we have.

in this company he's like I'd love to. have you over there and so I did it I. reclassed I was a E5 promotable because. the points were maxed out back then when. I reclassed to 11 Bravo the points were. way down here because there's a lot of. them so I immediately promoted to E6 too. um so now I'm a Staff Sergeant in the. scalpatoon and yeah doing that with him. as my boss the platoon Sergeant than him. is the lieutenant it but yeah so we were. out doing some training setting up some. training and again Paul and I got to be.

pretty good friends and we were coming. back and he said can we stop off and see. my dad and I was like yeah. again I thought his dad was a combat. engineer because he was a 12 Bravo. because that was his MOS. and so we stopped at the unit compound. and I was like what are you doing dude. and he's like. and I'm like what what are you talking. about so at this point I had had a. selection date like oh you already had a. selection I had submitted my packet they. had accepted it and asked me to attend. selection and because again because Paul.

had talked me out of going the Green. Beret route and and convinced me to give. it a shot if it didn't work out he's. like then you can go do that nothing. against. the difference is it just it made sense. to me like shoot for the stars. and uh so yeah so we went in the. compound I ended up meeting the unit. star major and scared to death out of my. mind and uh that you know Doug didn't. say anything to I think he said like. Paul I think I think he said Chris Paul. tells me you have a selection date and. uh yes Roger that started. [Music].

and all I went was good luck not like. encouraging not you know just good luck. like good luck kid you're not gonna make. it through this but uh but yeah and then. we got out of there and and I ended up. going to selection twice but uh but yeah. I went from. I went from that 82nd reconnaissance. platoon. um to selection. I failed the first time I got pulled the. day before the last day very much time. standard as they say. and um but they asked me to come back.

um and I wanted to do it in the same. season so I waited a full year I went. back the next year and then was. successful that second time why did you. want to do it in the same season. uh the weather was pretty interesting. when I was there and I wanted every I. wanted the conditions to be as close to. the same as they could so the fall. leaves and snow occasionally and. whatever I wanted to be exactly the same. and I was afraid the terrain would look. a lot different in the winter and you. cover so much ground I wanted every. aspect in my favor like I wanted I was. like I got I have to be even faster than.

I was and I felt like I crushed it the. first time like I trained my butt off. like I really felt like I. I really feel like I moved faster the. first time I did it than the second. really but the second time I think I. just made smarter choices. um so consequently they overall made me. actually made me. faster and better but do you think they. send guys do you think they were however. you want to call reject guys on purpose. to see if they'll come back to see how. bad they want it I do personally yeah I.

mean in the in the unit there's only a. couple of Physicians where you are privy. to the information of. the how what one where and why as it is. to selection. uh and if you don't fill one of those. billets at any point in your career in. the organization you'll never know what. those are so there's you know 95 percent. of the guys that have ever been an. operator there don't know what the. criteria is don't know what the time. standards are don't know what any of.

that info is so I personally think yes. like I felt like right wrong or. indifferent I felt like they went. this is a 23 year old kid. like never been to war. you know whatever his background was he. had a DUI he's a young private let's. just test him and see if he'll do it all. again and so I did and uh. and luckily you know thankfully it. worked out did it Crush you the first. time when you didn't make it in.

I don't think it crushed me I mean I was. exhausted I mean I knew I gave it. everything that I had I think there was. a little bit of comfort in that and that. you're just not good enough like. um so when I did my exit interview and. they said basically you know they read. you the party line you fail to me the. time standard but then they sort of. built me back up and they said hey you. did a really good job for like a young. inexperienced guy like you did a really. good job and we would really like you to. come back and and try again because we. think you potentially could have a.

future here and that was enough like. that was so even though you failed. it was like they pushed you out the door. with. momentum that's good to kind of come. back and I think that was really. important were you ever on that board I. was not no and the guy that actually did. my. um. if I remember correctly. um the guy that did my exit interview. was Tom Greer um who passed away a. number of years ago. um Tom was a.

officer in the unit and uh and got out. and wrote a couple books under the pen. name Dalton Fury. um if you remember any of those he died. of cancer a few years ago but yeah like. I can I remember the words like yeah you. did a good job and we think you could. make it but we want to see you come back. and do it again. um. so following your career. you showed up to the regiment in 95 6. 96. spent a year there it went to third ID.

yep then went to 82nd we've got to be. getting close to 2001. yeah real close. so the first year I went to selection. was 2000. um and failed. um that was fall of 2000 and then so. 2001 happens fast forward uh that summer. in August so I knew I had a return. selection date and and selection is at. the end of September or into October. they run it twice a year fall and spring. holy [ __ ] so it's August two two things.

happen in August of 2001 I sprained my. ankle playing basketball. a month and a half out from selection. and I was like you gotta be kid I mean. bad like high ankle sprain you know like. where you had been better off if you. broke it kind of thing. um so that was obstacle one obstacle two. was I got orders from the Army sending. me to the drill instructor course to be. a drill sergeant down at Fort Benning oh.

sh so I was. like on the ankle thing happen and then. that happened and I was like I am not. the guy like you said like I've always. been pretty open and honest and she's. like I'm not the guy that you want out. there shaping young minds yeah I'm just. not uh I'm sure I would have been fine. and taking it on had it happened but but. yeah I was on orders to be a drill. instructor. um so I was rehabbing the ankle as best. I could uh I was taping the crap out of. it you know like you know you used to. get your ankles taped in football and. stuff.

um and uh I called the recruiter and I. said hey look man I I just got orders to. be a drill sergeant like. I heard these are like like if you get. the the old rumor was if you got orders. to be a recruiter or a drill sergeant. there was no way you were getting out of. it like that was your path and for the. next three years that's what you were. gonna do. and so I'm terrified and I called the. unit recruiter and he was like yeah no. big deal don't worry about it I was like. what and I go but I'm supposed to report. like before I go to selection and he was. like yeah don't worry about it and I'm. like so you just want me to not report.

and he was like yeah whatever. and I'm like all right well this guy. told me I don't have to do anything to. just ignore it and so whatever happened. behind the scenes that time came and. went. uh 911 happened. um and I was out in the field training. with the with the recomp doing with the. scouts and then uh not. not two weeks after 9 11 I left and went. to West Virginia for selection damn.

did that. do you think that event gave you extra. motivation that maybe helped you get. through selection the second time I. think you did everybody. yeah I think uh. the realization was if I get through. this and then get through the operator. training course like. I'm going to war for my country like. absolutely no doubt like and I think. they. 'll wanting to be like that force that.

you knew was going to take to fight to. the people that were responsible for. this I think that was huge. um so it wasn't discussed like no I. don't think we ever talked about it and. most guys there didn't talk a lot like. it it was a very serious and somber like. selection class you're scared to talk to. each other anyway but there were a. handful of guys just like me that had. done it the year prior that so they were. faces that I knew. um and some of them interesting ones you. know like uh I went to selection with.

with Alan shumate who was Walt shumate's. son who was one of the early on Founders. and and sergeant majors of the Delta. Force and he was a repeat with me so. like a few of us knew each other but. even then I don't think we talked about. 911 at all it was just. it was about you know the great. breakfast that we just had or how bad we. thought today was going to suck was the. pulse or the tone of selection from the. Cadre side any different not not a bit. exactly the same that's the most.

professionally Run course I have ever. attended no [ __ ]. um yeah from in the beginning from the. classes that they give you to make sure. everyone has been provided with the same. amount of information and you're all at. the same level so nobody has an excuse. as to why they weren't or weren't. successful from an education standpoint. it's the most professionally Run course. I've ever been a part of and they. maintain that to this day I guarantee it. I know it's apples and oranges but. would you say it's more professional. than OTC itself.

uh different. um the intent at selection is to. maintain separation between the students. and the Cadre okay uh OTC is phased it's. a phased approach so in the beginning. it's very much like that but then as you. progress eventually you get to a point. where it's hey you can call me Bob or. Joe or whatever okay you know what I. mean like I do they they uh OTC is more. about integrating you into. unit mindset and the way the unit really. functions so by the time you get to the.

end it's a little more like what it's. going to feel like in Squadron than when. you first started oh good if that makes. sense it does. let's take a quick break and uh when we. come back we'll talk about. OTC and what that training pipeline. looked like cool. I want to give a big thank you out right. now to all the vigilance Elite patrons. out there that are watching the show. right now. just want to say thank you guys you are.

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and if you don't want to and you just. want to continue to watch the show. that's fine too I appreciate it either. way love you all let's get back to the. show thank you. I see this guy up there and he's laying. there sleeping he's just starting to. wake up dude's getting up and he's. swinging off and I'm going down. how's it doing that. No Rules of Engagement I could have. taken right when I walked out on there. because he's up there and security he.

had gone next to him done. but I didn't I was going towards it I'm. still walking towards me closing the. distance and then the guy just like. great there goes and he drops it because. he saw it it was the alien versus. caveman. [Music]. foreign we are sexual beings and so a. problem that a lot of religions do is. they cross sexuality down to a point. when they cause problems. and I think that's part of what happened. to me was within a religious institution.

where sexuality was foreboded and it was. like you don't even say the word. I'm gonna start living right now and. trying to figure out who I am and part. of to figure out who I am was. part of that isolation always want to be. my sister as a kid just like I said. [Music]. the Iron Man suit. I did I had a really good projects.

I went in a lot of rabbit holes you know. and then for whatever reason I started. to eat I don't know how it happened but. I talked about the Iron Man project. Chris you can call a lot of people. idiots after what I've just heard you. talk about because that's when I started. going into the ancient times like you're. not going to tell me this guy is blue I. want to I want to know why it's blue. to give these puberty backers out is a. prison data from all those patterns. that's what they're using yeah.

can I ask if you're attracted to women. I'm not you're not no and you fell in. love with with Kristen mm-hmm. [Music]. [Music].

all right Chris we're back from the. break. he just wrapped up selection you got in. you're gonna go to OTC. what did they tell you when you made it. in selection. um. well you finish you finish the. stress phase the physical portion of. selection and then you have the board. um. the board process is what it is I'm not. going to get into it because I think. that mental aspect is part of the.

process but when I finished. um a guy that I looked up to for years. after this happened and got to know a. little bit better but he said uh after. they told me they were they were I think. their words were we're going to take a. chance on you. I'm gonna take a flyer here and roll the. dice and and see how it works out. um but congratulations. um you've been accepted and you're gonna. attend an operator training course. and I don't think I reacted like I think.

I was just stone-faced there were some. funny moments in the board and the. questions that they asked and I put my. foot in my mouth a couple of times as a. young guy as you would expect and uh the. guy that sort of walked me out. afterwards he sort of like put his arm. around me and he said it's cool you can. smile now. and it was a cool moment like and I. think I didn't even realize how like in. shock I was. um and then that lasted for a brief few. seconds and then I realized I still had.

a long road ahead of me and that was the. operator trading course yeah. did you any of the guys that you knew. from before did they make it with you. were the only one. good question yes uh one of them did. yeah yeah a guy went through the course. of me. um I've got he's kind of a. he's a picture of resiliency but a. number of years later in the unit he. ended up getting blown up by an ID.

um and lost. half of his face really and went through. a number of years of reconstruction. reconstructive surgery but. yeah he's involved in a lot of Veteran. issues to this day and held in there and. kept doing his thing but yeah so one of. the guys yes. amazing. well let's move into OTC then sure well. actually did you go back to your unit. first or are you there now I did but. it's really quick like you go back and. basically I'll process. um and then you move over uh to the.

compound. um when you're a fall. selection. an assessment graduate I guess for lack. of a better term there's a lot of admin. things and some classes that happen. early on and then some basic rifle. Marksmanship stuff that happens and then. you get a little bit of a break for. Christmas and then you come back hot and. heavy but but yeah it's really quick I. think I had less than two weeks back at. the unit I think 11 days later I. reported to the compound oh wow.

interesting yeah it was an interesting. time like it was 9 11 it happened and I. think we were chomping at the bit like. let's go let's get this on. uh which I think was a good thing I. think it I think it focused us a little. more you know I was terrified like. and excited and everything we did it. didn't matter what it was I was like yes. because I was this like young hungry kid. so glad to be so grateful to be where I. was that I think I was just sort of in. all every day and took it all in like a.

sponge that's a that's awesome I mean. you'd really. the timing the way you positioned. yourself. right after or you know leading up to. and right after 9 11 I mean the timing. is for what you wanted to do. I mean you really. there's kind of time that better yeah. that's some Universe [ __ ] like we were. saying yeah like and like I said the. theme continues like my timing with. things sort of continues throughout my. career both good and bad but they all.

led to where I am today so yeah I'm. grateful for all of it well let's move. into training let's was day one what is. day one oh man uh I'll preface this with. I have giant holes in my memory from. various injuries and things so I'll do. my best but yeah early on it was it was. like I said it was some classes. um and then I think the thing that I was. most impressed or taken aback by was how. they really started from zero. um so you had guys that had been Green. Berets for a bunch of years you had guys.

have been Army Rangers for a bunch of. years I think me I think there were. three guys in my operator training. course class that were for lack of a. better term from the conventional Army. um one of them turned out to be one of. my really good friends Mike McNulty. another guy that didn't make it through. the course but uh they really went back. to the basics you know literal basic. rifle Marksmanship is where we started. out so on a known distance range laying. on the ground you know rotating between. your guy on the line taking slow aim.

fire shots and working on the. fundamentals of Marksmanship to the guy. down in the tunnel you know lifting the. target putting the paces on it lowering. the target they really went back to. square one and started with the basics. and went through a block of instruction. like you had never shot a firearm before. and it was professional it was organized. and I felt like I was actually being. taught you know like basic training you. kind of go through you there's a little. bit of. hurriedness to it. um where they're just trying to check.

some blocks and get you to a bare. minimum level. um this was actual focused instruction. where I felt like the instructors were. over your shoulders they were asking. questions and they were constantly. feeding you information and experience. that was that you know the intent was to. train you professionally to be an. operator is it encouraging is it a. uh isn't it do they encourage you in. that environment or is it. is it a beat down do they use. humiliation no it's definitely not a.

beat down there is no not in selection. or in the operator training course is. there an element of hazing or. intimidation or any of that stuff no. [ __ ] nothing nothing uh I I think the. philosophy is you know at that point. like you've. you have been asked with very little. information to put yours push yourself. past your limits. um and do the best that you possibly can. and I think uh the idea is to just move. past that and focus on the skills and.

the fundamentals so while it is more. rigid in the beginning. um mainly because you're afraid as the. the candidate going through the course. but. um no so you do physical events you do. pt events and there are things that are. clearly designed to make you suck and. push yourself. I think one of the earliest ones I. remember was. um. uh the selection. or the OTC starting Major's time is a. guy named John Hale who unfortunately. took his life a number of years ago one.

of many that I'm sure you and I both. know but. um. lumpy was his nickname I think from. Somalia but he took us on a p mask run. where we had like bell-fed weapons and. protective masks on and running through. the sand and the you know Backwoods in. North Carolina they were outside the. compound and that was definitely a. suck event like we're just gonna go. punish you and see if these guys still. got them enough to keep pushing. themselves every single day but for the. most part it was focused on starting at.

zero and then continuing to advance your. skills in education to get you to the. level where they needed to be would you. describe it as a gentleman's course. gentleman's course. um. there's no buffoonery there's no hazing. there's no none of that is yeah it's. very. it sounds very black and white yeah yes. with the exception of the criticality. that's placed on you on a daily basis. like you.

are in a learning environment but it's. very clear that if you make a mistake. you do X and they explain to you this is. what you did this is what you did wrong. this is how you need to do it different. or whatever that ended up being that if. you don't learn from that experience and. you don't implement the corrective. action that was taken you're not going. to stay here. um so what I call it a gentleman's. course no I would say it's very. professionally run. um. but the level of detail and scrutiny is.

so high that that comes with its own. pressure where all that stuff isn't. necessary okay you know like. and yeah as you progress on and you get. into CQB and you're doing single manner. inventory two-man and you're. progressively working up as you learn. the fundamentals uh yeah you've got the. the guys on the catwalk above you and I. think every guy going through the course. ends up with a nemesis I don't know if. they work it out amongst themselves or.

what I was never an instructor but. but it's like one guy goes yeah that's. my guy. and he and he might we had one I had one. in particular we called him the AC-130. Gunship because he would just hover on. the catwalk and shoot 105 rounds at me. no matter what I did I could do no right. like VanZant what are you doing why did. you do this what just constant. um so yeah the questions were there but. they were Justified it wasn't like they. were just picking [ __ ] out like you're. getting a lot of army courses where you. just know they're messing with you to.

mess with you yeah it was it was. legitimate criticism so you had to take. it learn from it and try to not do it. the next time. what's the retention. in the course yeah oh good question I. mean I think we started with. I think we started with 15 I think we. finished with 11 or 12. um we only lost a few guys we lost a. couple of guys going through the direct. support portion. um we had an we had an accident we had a. guy a guy going through the operator. training course as an operator. um blew his hand off.

um in the course which was kind of an. interesting moment he was um. this is this is down the road in the. course but we're in full-blown like team. CQB at this point and so it would be. like one team would go and it was. exterior breach and then move through. whatever the house was or the facility. was you'd come out you know do a hot. wash the events just took place walk. back through the house and go through. each room uh and then it'd be next team. up well he was outside and he was. prepping his charge he was going to be. the breacher for that iteration and we.

were using the Old Navy West device that. dual fired. um firing device. so. he had it on the. underside of the charge he had screwed. the no now into the West firing device. and he was going through his pre-combat. checks and he test fired the West device. but he had hooked it up and so when he. did it like he had the caps and the West. device in his hand and the Caps blew. basically the majority of his hand off. sure and it was just a it was a mistake.

I mean it was what the course is. designed to draw out it's people that. aren't capable of dealing with things. coming at them from all directions and. and being able to be clear and concise. and do the basics correct to the highest. level and yeah and Chuck blew his hand. off and we thought it was a hat and. round we thought a guy had 80 with a. shotgun or something because it was like. a muffled pop. like you know it wasn't super loud. because it was just two blasting caps. detonating damn but he did the hot. potato and then Medics came over treated.

him they put him in a truck drove him. off and the instructor that was running. CQB that day basically turned to us. right after the truck drove away and. said next team up. damn and like I've tell that I've told. that story for years because it. imprinted on me it was like. okay yup accidents happen we need to. talk about what just happened and why. you know a hot wash and AAR but our job. is to train and prepare for combat and. that's our Focus so we're going back to. it and we did right then and there it.

wasn't like they halted training you. know if that happened in the. conventional Army the day is over yeah. like the range is shut down like nothing. is going on after that there's an. investigation like nope we went within. minutes we went right back to the next. team up explosive breach external entry. CQB through the house [ __ ] for those. listening uh that don't understand so. when he's saying that when Chris is. saying that the hand got blown up by a. blasting cap a blasting cap is. basically about the size of a big pen. yeah about half the size of a big pen.

you put it into a charge and that's what. initiates that's what initiates the bomb. to they'll Boom the larger explosive. yeah so they say I don't know how. accurate this is because I never really. [ __ ] around with them to find out but. um they say at least in Buds and still. training they say that the blasting cap. is uh very sensitive. and uh well there that maybe that proves. the point yeah but um it doesn't take a. lot to set them off it's funny the.

things that happen like that happened. again when I was a baby for lack of a. better term going through the course. um but I breached for a really long time. when I actually got to the teams you. know I breached for almost three and a. half years in combat which you're not. really supposed to do for that long and. that's a whole story I'm sure we'll talk. about later but but it made me very. conscious of everything that I was doing. and very methodical as a breacher and I. think it was important to me being. successful as a breacher later on so. yeah even from all the bad always come.

something good and I think it made all. of us better operators. where do you think the hang if you. started with roughly 15 graduated with. roughly 10 11. where did most guys and then you spent a. lot of time over there what do you think. most guys get caught up in that and OTC. in the training pipeline uh complex. environment. um I think when you have so many things. coming at you like CQB is the most. um as you know like it's it's the most. complex of all. combat related environments you've got.

stuff going on in different rooms you've. got people coming from different angles. um you know the unit is always taught. multiple entry cqbs so you've got where. the good guys where the bad guys when. you shoot at a Target you got to know. what's in front of what's that and. what's behind my target you've got stuff. overhead you've got stuff in your ears. you've got flashbangs you've got door. charges there's just so many things. going on at one time that I think it's. just too much for some guys and they. might be able to get away with it for a.

little bit but eventually it catches up. to them and I think white out is the. right term but whatever it's it's. basically just too much information for. a guy to process and make sound. decisions and I think that's the the. dominant thing that gets guys is that. towards the end. uh. uh I think we lost one kind of Midway. um that just couldn't cut it. um yeah most of them were toward the end. and then you know you go to a board at. the end of OTC again which. is basically where your overall.

performance is assessed throughout the. entire course you can get dropped at any. point along the way but the board kind. of looks at your overall performance and. then takes input from all the. instructors on your personality and. demeanor and things like that and. Squadron leadership makes decisions and. they basically pick. onesies and twosies and try to figure. out where the best fit for a guy is. because like any organization kind of. each Squadron within that organization. has a little bit different vibe. different personality so I've always. felt like they did a really good job.

um with guys ending up where they're. supposed to be yeah at least I felt that. way I felt like where I went was. absolutely the right choice for me. you've talked I've heard you talk about. the competitive culture yeah within. within the unit and listening to your. OTC experience and a couple other uh. people's OTC experience it doesn't. I could be totally off on this but. I don't hear a lot of competitiveness.

happening in training am I correct on. that. um. no no I mean. there is a level of camaraderie I think. in the course because you're all going. through the same things and you're in. teams so you definitely pull together. with your teammates okay like Sean and I. are on the same team in OTC like I want. Sean to be successful Sean being. successful means I'm successful so. there's an inherent camaraderie and.

unity that comes within that team. environment between the teams definitely. competitive oh God they want to be. faster they want to be better in my. particular case way late in in the. operator training course they busted it. all up so I was very used to and very. comfortable with the other three guys on. my team going through the course and we. were getting very good at what we were. doing as we advanced in skill set and I. was I was the baby on the team I had. three Green Berets three seasoned Green.

Berets Where My OTC teammates for the. first three quarters of it and then late. in the game they blew up the teams and. they switched us all up and I ended up. on a completely different team with. completely different set of guys and I. don't know if. if like they just did it to like me like. they put me on another team and it was. the same Three core guys and now me. and I had to integrate into that. or you know like if it was certain guys. that they did that to or if it was just. in general they just wanted to bust it. up and change it up and see how guys. reacted to it but that took a minute.

um because we had been so competitive. with that other team you know because. we're all Alphas you're like I don't. even like that dude like you know he's. too cocky he's whatever. um and one of them turned out to be a. good friend of mine years later but I. thought that about one of the guys on. the team that I went to it's like he's a. cocky [ __ ] like he was from Ranger. measurement he's just one of those. people and you meet a lot of those guys. in that world that they're just good at. everything and it kind of pisses you off. you know what I mean like like I'm. struggling every day like just to be.

enough to keep going like that's how I. always felt. um and then you look at some guys and. you get to know them years later and you. know you find out that that's not true. that that they were having those same. mental struggles that you were yeah um. but from an outsider looking in maybe. they're a little older maybe they've. done a little more maybe they handle a. little better or whatever but you look. at them and you're like man [ __ ] that. guy like he's just good at everything we. do meanwhile I'm out here coming in on. Saturday coming in on Sunday like just. trying to get by. um and I think I felt like that joining. that team so it took a minute.

um but it was a good experience to be. pulled out of everything that you know. and that comfort and shove back into. something else and still having to be. effective and meet the standard. interesting. you had no idea I was wondering I've. always heard that I worked with a lot of. guys from KAG over it uh when I was um. Contracting at the agency and I could. feel the competitiveness yeah from those. guys and more I think all of them are. very ultra competitive but and then and.

then get into the interviewing game I. just I hadn't heard about the. competition and and. in OTC yeah so I was wondering where. that kind of developed well and then. it's anything that's individual. super competitive running the O course. either one they post your times okay so. you get to see I'm Number 14. okay or. I'm number one yeah. um and they do the same thing with. shooting competitions do a couple of. evaluations along the way and it's all. to prepare you for the culminating stuff.

um but you see you're standing the upper. body round robin or the sequence of. events that you do for physical fitness. and it's changed I don't even know what. they do now they do a bunch of different. [ __ ] but then it was like 10 or 11. events and and they had a metric in each. one of those. and and then an overall encompassing. score so not only did they post how you. did in each one of those individual. metrics but they posted your overall. score and they racked and stacked you as. a class and they did that periodically. and so yeah it was very competitive when. it came to that kind of stuff did you.

guys do peer evaluations. oh. I don't know. I honestly don't remember Sean okay we. did. counseling. once a month where you had a Cadre. member that was like your team's lead. guy and he would counsel you on you know. sustains improves whatever uh.

I don't think we did peers okay. yeah interesting and maybe I don't. remember because I went through the sfq. course eventually too later on which is. weird but and peers were a huge part of. that. but I don't think we did okay yeah not. that I remember interesting I'm sure. somebody that listens this one could. comment in and go yes you do or no you. don't and how do you not remember that. but that's whatever man yeah that's one. thing that always. kept being in check uh we did that in.

buds we did that in sqt we did that at. the team and uh we should having an. instructor evaluate That's Heavy having. your [ __ ] team evaluate as we did it. I think it was to budge I think it was I. just want the top five guys and the. bottom Five Guys and the reason why you. placed them there. and I've been in the bottom and I've. been in the top yeah and it's it's. that's [ __ ] humbling well that's I. like I always just wanted to finish in. the middle somewhere yeah in one of.

those things like I had some strengths. like I could run I was one of the top. two fastest guys in the class so I had. like me and another dude used to battle. out for second place there was another. guy was a former Navy diver. um who. was an ultra marathoner and held the. badwater record for some years nice here. in the U.S Mike. [ __ ] outstanding human being but he. um we were always wanted to so I had. some strengths like shooting wise like I. was a speed guy I was good anytime I. didn't have to like sit there and think.

about it that's why I was never never. like a long gun or a long-range shooter. guy so all the fast drills with rifle I. did well at all the fast stuff with. pistol I did well at you put me on a 25. meter range slow fire with a 45 good God. you know and I got better thank God. people are good at teaching but I just. whatever it was man I would get in my. head and I'd be at the bottom of the. pack and it was terrifying. like so I was always just shooting to. kind of be middle of the road I'm going.

through the course yeah I understand. that 45 but you guys usually 45 yeah. yeah we learned on 45s then no [ __ ] yeah. I think they've switched to nine mil but. I'm not sure. 1911s yeah 1911s yeah he's Caspian 45s. then. um yeah I mean Great Guns loved it to. death I'm glad that I learned on a on a. full frame 45 because I think it you. understood the fundamentals of mechanics. better and it made you better at. shooting everything else as everything. else frankly it was just easier yeah.

um but yeah yeah I wouldn't have thought. of that good stuff. um. also. Delta is the only unit I believe that I. know of especially on the tier one side. of the house that I mean they take they. recruit from everywhere they don't care. as far as I know. um I heard you say that there are. minimum requirements to try out but it. doesn't sound like the requirements are. very high you can come from correct me.

if I'm wrong anywhere in the military. Navy Marine Corps Army Air Force. Coast Guard. um that's never happened to my knowledge. but maybe you can I don't know but um I. always found that interesting because. every everywhere else there's a pipeline. to get into even with regular soft sure. you know uh in most most organizations. did you find that I mean what are your. thoughts on that and why do you think. they do that. why why do I think they allow you to.

come from anywhere yeah. you know at the end of the day. your individual. drive your personal traits your. attributes the way your mind works. um I think are really what make the. difference between a competent and solid. operator and a guy that can't do the job. um I think. with the right mindset and the right. individual you can. you can teach a monkey to shoot.

um it's just repetitive action it's. practice it's over and over and over. again but a guy has to have the drive. and the motivation he has to have that. that personal thing inside him that. makes him want to work that hard and be. receptive to that training so I think. yes. um from that perspective I think two I. think you get. pulling guys from all walks of life for. lack of a better term I think gives you. perspective from so many different. angles and they're all bringing. something different to the table and I.

had experiences with it later on in my. career where I was working joint service. stuff where I was working with an Air. Force guy or a seal or whatever. um and there were things. in their background and experience that. they brought to the table that I had no. clue about and and because of that. influence and that input it made us. collectively even better so I think that. was the unit philosophy early was hey. man a guy might be a. he might be a vehicle mechanic but he. has the aptitude and the drive and the.

intelligence to be trained to do all. these other things well now you end up. with a dude at the other end of the. pipeline that not only is an operator. but he can take apart and put back. together an engine yeah that might come. in handy at some point absolutely I mean. one of the things they always stress in. the organization was you can go do. anything you want training wise if you. can dream it up and you want to go do it. you want to learn it whatever it is all. you have to do is explain how it's going. to make you a better operator and we. will support it fund it and send you to. that training and in peace time guys did.

crazy stuff all the time you know things. that you would never think of going to a. photography course you know lock pick. School uh learn how to fly whatever it. was if it made you a better operator and. you could demonstrate that the command. they supported it so I think that was. the philosophy going in once you're. pulling people from all different walks. of life background experience training. and that could be beneficial down the. road I don't know I'm. I hope nobody's taken that as a hit on. the unit it's just always found it. fascinating that you know it is.

arguably subjectively whatever you want. to call it one of the the most capable. unit in the [ __ ] world and. there is no standard they don't care how. much combat scoring she had they don't. care what unit you came from it's it's. it's. I mean they know what the [ __ ] they're. looking for that's for damn sure and if. they did. um if they did have those stipulations. to get in then. look at all the gems that they have. completed yourself that yeah I mean.

there's a there's a baseline right like. minimum time and service requirement. minimum rank those are kind of the admin. ones. um minimal minimum physical fitness. standards you know you have to do X on. your physical evaluation whatever that. is and then you have to do an 18 Mile. Road March in a certain amount of time. like there's a few precursors okay. um IQ testing is another part of the. equation where if you're just dumb it's. just not happening. um you have to score fairly well on your.

IQ testing and then psychological. evaluation. um and I don't know anything about it. it's fascinating and I wish I could like. I wish. uh I'm glad I mean I guess I'm glad that. they don't share it because they're. really good at what they do yeah but I. think that's psychological eval was as. much a part of anything it was. understanding what makes you you and how. you're wired and who has the aptitude to. receive all that function in that. environment and come home and be normal. um you know I think 20 years of war have. probably altered some of that yeah but I.

think the assessment on the front end in. determining guys that have the aptitude. or capability to be successful I think. they've got it down to a science. um and I think that's why the success. rates after guys get through selection. and then get to OTC I think that's why. they're as high as they are okay not to. say that things don't happen after that. there's tons of guys that wash out after. they're assigned to Squadron they might. get through all those wickets and get to. a team and you know environments that. you hadn't been exposed to even an OTC. now happen and you're just not the guy. for the job or. sometimes personalities just flat out.

don't click yeah and those things happen. but yeah I think that. I think they dialed in the type of. person that has the aptitude to succeed. uh and they've capitalized on that ever. since its Inception okay I mean it makes. a makes a lot of sense. so you graduate OCC yep. how do you how who determines what. Squadron you're going to good question. uh it's a bit of a draft I think they. look at all your performance metrics.

um I've never been a part of it so I've. never been on that side of it but. uh the way I've always understood it is. it's. you know whatever the pecking order is. Whoever has first choice and I think it. rotates you know usually you're going to. take the top performer in the class you. know there's a guy that's out shot. everybody that's out this or out PT or. whatever. um there's usually there's usually a. couple of guys that are up to the top. and everything a couple of guys that are. all the way down to the bottom and. everything and then the rest of us are. somewhere in between.

uh and I think they just go through and. pick and then think about personalities. and how the instructors describe you. um and figure out where you'd be the. best fit damn it's that in depth so it's. like a it's like an NFL draft yeah. who's scouting. uh well the instructors all come from. each of the squadrons okay so post team. leader time. um a good portion of team leaders rotate. out into selection and training and they. become OTC instructors so you have. representation from each of the.

squadrons within the operator training. course on the Cadre side and so they all. talks to the monk themselves and they. all talk with. people back in the squadrons where they. came from and I think collectively. they're charged with giving the best. evaluation of who would be a good fit. where and then at the end of the day at. the board you go through a board again. and it's the the senior non-commissioned. officer from each Squadron and the. commander of each Squadron is who's. making the call on this guy or that guy. based on those recommendations when it.

comes to the culture over there. I've heard different things uh working. with different people and interviewing. different people. from what I've heard. are there squadrons that are it seems. like. background plays a little bit more of a. role when you get into the unit and when. I'm where I'm going with this is it from. whenever there's a squadron that is very. SF heavy a squadron this very Ranger. heavy and a squadron that's very.

mixed bag of nuts heavy and that's all. I've heard I don't know everything but. yeah it's not true to that I mean I've. heard that too. um but then over the years there's guys. that I thought were guys that came out. of regiment and turns out they were. Green Berets and vice versa or guys that. I thought were Green Berets and they. came from the regular army and I had no. idea. I think it's pretty much a mixed bag. okay I think each Squadron had different. personalities for sure. um my personal opinion is during my time. which is small compared to a lot of guys.

you know I was there for nine ten years. or whatever and. uh so I have my only I only have my own. sampling. um but like I was a sea Squadron guy and. I always felt like sea Squadron was. a little more laid back than at the time. the other two or you know there's three. now four total now but. uh I felt like they were a little more. laid back I felt that they were a little. more cerebral. um a little more open to everybody's. input plays into the decisions and then.

I felt like there were other squadrons. that were a little more like Ranger. regiment like okay the older guys have. the say and and they were a little more. Gruff uh or maybe a little more. competitive. um but yeah but I mean. we're talking nuanced stuff like they're. all the same all right I I really think. as much as I think I ended up in the. right place there's plenty of examples. where guys have bounced between. different squadrons uh and had no issue.

um you know you just adapt to the. environment that you're in now and. that's part of what makes them great is. they can do that. uh but yeah I don't know if the I don't. know if the actual numbers are different. amongst the squadrons if that was ever a. thing or if that is a thing but mine sea. Squadron was a mixed bag was it yeah we. had guys from regiment we had guys that. were Green Berets we had guys from. regular army uh Like You Name It We have. guys from other services eventually. uh they had a couple Marines in my. squadron at one point uh the Marine. Corps is the only weird one because the.

Marine Corps won't let those guys go so. they're still technically Marines. no [ __ ] yeah if you come from the Navy. and end up making the two selection and. you make it they all process you from. the Navy and improcious to the Army and. give you an army um especially skill or. whatever MOS the Marine Corps holds on. to them so they can pull them back at. any point. interesting because that's what it used. to be I don't know if it's still that. way but yeah but yeah because I think. Keith Oaks was the first gunny Oaks was. the first guy from like force that I was. aware of that came over okay.

um and then there's only ever been one. Dev group guy that did it and he had a. break in service it wasn't like he left. Evan came to the unit he left Dev got. out did some things uh 9 11 happened. anyway how do I get back in the fight uh. and then some buddies of his said you. need to go to. go to cagman like you need to go to the. unit and. it's a long funny story that you should. probably interview him at some point but. he ended up going through and making it. and then ended up in the Army to the.

date I think he's the only the only Dev. guy that ever has done both. um but I think there's been a few other. guys from the seal community that have. done it over the years yeah is anybody. that you know have switched the other. side not that I'm aware of no yeah I. don't know anybody's happy over there I. don't even know if you how you would do. it you know I mean like there's a. mechanism on on the unit side to do that. I don't know that there's a mechanism to. go the other way interesting uh but you. know in that and that relationship Ebbs.

and flows over time yeah we had we were. like this for a bunch of years and then. and then the exchange between the two. organizations you know that stamina. Crystal did in the early 2000s that. improved a lot of things and made both. organizations better and we got along a. lot better so it's a generation of us. from that like early 2000s combat air. where we're all really good friends yeah. I don't know out now maybe it's gone. back to the you know [ __ ] those guys I. don't know but uh it was a funny.

evolution and for my peer group at least. so back to your own experience uh. you get in you go to see Squadron yeah. what is that environment like uh super. fast is it welcoming nobody was there so. C Squadron was deployed to Afghanistan. when I crossed the hall as they say. so the initial stuff happened right. after 9 11. that was a different. Squadron that did Gekko and all those. early incursions into Afghanistan.

um the next rotation C took over for. them so in the spring of O2. um the Squadron I got assigned to. deployed so when I finished OTC and went. to sea Squadron I didn't even go to Halo. school then part of the pipeline was. after OTC if you hadn't been you went to. Halo school and and some Advanced. Demolition stuff and. um I didn't even do those because I got. to Squadron they basically in process us. there was a skeleton crew left there. they equipped us and then in less than.

two weeks I was on a plane headed to. Afghanistan oh so you met um. [ __ ] straight out of school how. that could be yeah. that could be tough they could be either. very welcoming because they need you or. they could be who the [ __ ] is this guy. showing up mid-deployment how. how was it mixed bag yeah uh the team. fantastic the team was great and I think.

they were all. adult enough experienced enough and. smart enough to know that tonight this. guy could be on our left or our right so. it behooves us to be accepting get him. up to speed anywhere that he's not make. sure he's equipped properly et cetera. Etc so the team that I went to was very. welcoming all of them are still long. time friends to this day like they were. just really really good dudes uh The. Troop so expanding out a little bit yeah. sure there's some practical jokes and.

some things that occur uh and like who. is this guy. um but at the end of the day it was. minimal and I think it was because they. were at War like they were four deployed. and okay you're part of this let's go we. don't know when our next hit's gonna be. um I think I got lucky that. again timing that my first. deployment was Afghanistan because back. then it wasn't that bad like they only. did like six or eight hits that entire. rotation I got there about Midway.

through it so I only did like four. mission sets really um so I got some. training time yeah we did like a. wrecking Mission my first thing with the. team was a was a low Vis basically. walk-in hit. um and yeah blew much doors threw some. flashbangs didn't pull the trigger I. didn't pull the trigger once that first. rotation to Afghanistan. um so I got to integrate with the team I. got to learn I got to realize how slow I. was uh you know smashed into Afghani. door and bust the bridge of my nose and.

pop the nods off my helmet on my very. first Target ever you know like there's. a lot of little moments in there. um but being at War. joining that organization and a team at. War. it was the stuff that you can't get in. OTC it was like. I'm On Target in combat hunting Bad. Dudes and you know your troop starting. Majors on the radio and he's deadpan com. Roger that this is two two blah blah. blah you know you didn't even get that. in the regular army in training they'd. get all fired up when you were at you.

know jrtc you know fake stuff going on. and it was just a it was a really good. way in a very real way to join. something like that. when you got to Afghanistan. that's a real I don't know how long how. long were you there or how long was the. deployment if you can say oh their. deployment was well some guys were there. prior to an afo stuff another but the. Squadron as a whole I think was there. for three and a half months three and a.

half months and I only caught like the. tail end so like a month and a half of. that maybe eight hits in three and a. half months were you were you expecting. more when you got there yeah I was were. you disappointed no no no. um. we did enough that I mean because don't. get me wrong like I was nervous and. every night out like I didn't know yeah. even other guys that said you know like. some things that happened there's a. couple little things that had happened. but yeah I mean I I wasn't disappointed.

I felt like we got to do a little of a. bunch of different things you know there. was some funny stuff that happened but I. felt like I got to integrate with my. team and get to know those guys because. you know on a deployment you get to know. people on a different level. it's not like being home state side. where you go home every night you're. with them 24 7. so for me I was really. grateful like for the way that it all. worked out just getting to know those. guys on that level. being forced to get up to speed. as quickly as possible because you're.

coming OTC and you think you're hot [ __ ]. and then you get there and you realize. oh my God I had no idea how good these. guys were at this and I feel like. they didn't teach me anything again. um. so yeah but but yeah you quickly quickly. adapt and and become a part of it and. and then we I think we redeployed in. like July time frame. shortly after July 4th uh and then. that summer was basically when the churn.

started for prepping to potentially. invade Iraq. before we go to Iraq. you showed up in a combat zone at the. you know. the most capable unit in the [ __ ]. world. probably nervous terribly nervous that. the team's not gonna like you nervous. that you're going to combat yeah usually. from my own experience when I see people. show up mid-deployment uh including. myself I've done it and you're new.

you're usually drawn to one particular. person that kind of takes you under. their wing sure what was that for you uh. uh yeah it was it was Brad Thomas if if. you know folks out there have heard. Brad's name. um Brad started the band silence in the. light. um you know 100 of the proceeds from. their music goes to charity and Brad uh. I was from Delaware Brad was from. Maryland. um Brad was a Somali vet you know 93 was. in Biko 375 during the Black Hawk Down.

incident on October 3rd uh and lived. through all that and then hung around. and eventually became a unit operator. and uh yeah like he'd been through some. stuff and so I looked up to him right. away. um he sort of took me in right away and. and we were pretty tight back then like. I looked up to him like a big brother. still due to this day. um but my whole team then like like all. those guys were just solid uh and very. helpful and all a little different in. their own way.

um and and yeah we all do a pretty good. job of hanging on even all these years. later like that first team we were. together in combat for multiple. rotations after that. and that didn't happen later on like. guys would come and go or get injured or. whatever but but yeah that Core group of. like four guys I was with for three or. four combat rotations and and yeah Brad. was always kind of there as a mentor. what was one of the. was one of the biggest lessons you've. learned or you learned on that. deployment maybe through humiliation.

like [ __ ] I can't believe I just did. that did you did you make any of those. mistakes on that first deployment uh I. think the biggest lesson for me was. trust your instincts so I was on a. rooftop my very first Target like I said. I'd already busted my nose and torn my. nods off my head and whatever tried to. put them back together but we were on. the rooftop pulling security and uh I. was like right side security looking. like North down this road uh I think we. had some Rangers in a couple blocking. positions or maybe the wrecky troop guys. we had some snipers or something Al.

um and again no shots fired but we had. aggressively taken this target down and. and secured some detainees and we're. just waiting to. x-fill basically and this guy came. running down the road with an AK and I. was the only one that saw him. and I said to to Mikey a teammate of. mine I said hey uh there's a dude. running down the road with an AK and. something about it just didn't feel. right like it wasn't like he was running. to get in the fight it was like he was. running to come look or like see how he. could help there was just something. about his body language and again I'm a.

brand new guy in combat and I said so. this guy running down the road with an. AK and Mikey not looking in that. direction goes so shoot him well within. my rights right yep he's coming into our. Target area Rules of Engagement I was. good. totally could have smoked that guy it. just didn't feel right and so I yelled. back I go I don't think he needs to be. shot and then Mikey being you know solid. dude I think radioed down said hey. there's a dude coming up the street. because I'm you know oblivious radio. down to the guys on that corner and said.

this guy come up to you with an AK well. they ended up stopping him they didn't. shoot him they just stopped him he was. like the local law enforcement he was. actually a friendly to us and a guy that. had worked with. you know U.S forces over there and he. just heard all the noises in commotion. and thought somebody was in trouble and. he needed to come help and he was coming. down the road to investigate so nothing. wrong with that dude I would have been. well within my rights to smoke him but. he's hopefully still alive today because. I trusted my gut and I didn't just do. the instinctive thing which is guy with. a gun running in the Target area pull.

the trigger well good for you so it. stuck with me. um most of the time throughout the rest. of my deployments that serve me well. there's a couple instances that I regret. not pulling the trigger. um but but yeah for the most part it. taught me to trust my gut. where do you regret not pulling the. trigger uh years later in Iraq. um we hit a Target in Fallujah uh and we. were chasing a bomb maker and we didn't. know really anything about him we had.

like a name we had no image we didn't. know age like none of that stuff we had. some familial tie and a name and we hit. this house. um and there was a bunch of people in. the house and when I made entry into the. room across the room there was a doorway. and this kid to me I mean kid baby face. and I'm I was a baby face guy and a. young guy at the time and I wouldn't. have guessed he was but 14 years old. um but he reached out and grabbed an AK. and I basically went from the high ready.

to on him to off safe and I yelled don't. do it and he threw the AK on the ground. like he got to like here and then he. like saw me and then he threw the AK on. the ground and I went straight at him. across the room as the guy stand out. and I I think I pushed him initially and. he fell down. um and then I kicked him a number of. times and it was I was amped up because. I almost had to shoot in my mind this. kid. and is because he picked up a gun for. whatever reason so I was mad at him so I.

was kicking him not like really. aggressively just like I can't believe. you would do that kind of thing you know. what I mean and another teammate grabbed. me and and was like hey it's cool it's. cool it's cool and we picked him up and. and flexed off him or whatever and then. went on with the target. well it turns out. so that dude was he was just a young. baby-faced guy but he was like the area. expert on IED construction [ __ ] and he. had been building bombs and they had. this garage facility where they were. building those bombs and blah blah blah.

but uh they put him not us another group. of guys put him in a vehicle the next. day to take him out and do a close. Target reconnaissance. and get him to point out where all these. facilities were after interrogation all. that he said he would show them where. all their stuff was and it's in Fallujah. broad daylight he's in the back of the. van they cuffed his wrists you know so. he was in the back of the van with his. wrist cuffs but they didn't cuff him to. the vehicle. so there he leads them through the.

market in downtown Fallujah there's. thousands of people out on the street. broad daylight and he goes see that. building right there and the dudes that. were in the truck all turned and looked. to the right and he slid the window open. and hopped out ran into the crowd so the. guys got out of the vehicle they pursued. him for like 10 feet and then realized. they're in a crowd of thousand Iraqis. and they're the only Gringos standing in. the market so they thought better of it. and they let him go sure and so my mind. for years with that one was like I don't. know how many more people that dude.

killed like how many more people his. bombs killed and how many more people he. taught how to make bombs and I carried. that one around and I don't disagree. with my decision to pull the trigger. like he especially then like he. was starting to become a threat and then. he chose not to be and I gave it the. benefit of doubt I did what the good. guys do. um and I didn't shoot him and. but yeah but yeah I carried that and. went man who knows like should I have. shot that guy like yeah he gave me the.

opportunity I would have been well. within my rights he picked that weapon. up like he was going to use it I just. gave him a split second long enough to. get rid of it and he didn't get shot. damn. what year were you guys in Afghanistan. that was O2 O2 oh [ __ ] this is very. early yeah that was super early yeah. that was like oif one like I said. c-squarium was like this I think they. were the second rotation from our unit. to go over. no good B Squadron had done Gekko prior. what so eight hits. I don't know how Target Rich that.

environment was at that particular time. I wasn't uh I was still in training. but. I would think there will be a lot of. targets what. what was special about those eight. targets to send the tier one. asset after good question and I and I. don't even remember at one point we. laughed at one point we did a route. reconnaissance okay okay yeah and I. remember the the older guys all bitching. that you're sending the most highly.

trained individuals in the world to do a. route Recon to confirm if a bridge is. out or not. [ __ ] um looking back hindsight I think. it was a combination of things you know. we had limited assets at that point our. collection capability was nothing like. it was several years later we didn't. have eyes overhead you know we had like. a P3 Orion at 10 000 feet because of the. hard deck was like 9 500 feet because. they were worried Stinger missiles and. all that stuff like it was a weird. real early time. uh and I think they were coming up with.

stuff to do so like before I got there. they did some joint stuff with the with. the kiwis with New Zealand SAS like some. Mobility stuff down South we did a route. reconnaissance we did a a recognition. where we inserted and like went up in. the hills and did some observation we. did a couple of hits you know and it was. like a low Vis hit so for me I was like. this is cool like I'm in Lopez is the. funniest term ever right yeah it's white. guys in body armor and civilian clothes. where love is yeah you know in in. Tacomas or whatever highlights or.

whatever. uh yeah I just think um. I think there was limited intelligence I. think there was limited things to do. that early. uh and they just didn't know where guys. were so this is post where were you guys. at that early uh all over so we were. we were in Bagram we were flew down the. coast and did some stuff down there we. flew or drove up to through jalalabad to. osadabad and we were in a sadabad for a. little bit where all these.

Bob's like stood up already just. starting to stand up so jbad was a safe. house. um Assad Abad was a small fob. um. I don't remember what was down south and. then Bagram was small but growing [ __ ]. uh but yeah you know like torbor and all. that stuff had happened just before all. that so everybody went to ground after. torbor like when all those events. happened so I think we were there right. in that time when there was just nothing. everybody went to Stone Age nobody knew.

where anybody was we'd killed a bunch of. guys early on and dropped a lot of bombs. and it just the targets dried up. um so yeah there wasn't a lot to do no. [ __ ] yeah yeah so like guys that when I. got there like dudes that had been there. afo for months and were involved in. torbora and you know the John McPhee's. of the world you know Sheriff Baghdad. and all those cats like I I remember. thinking how badass that was like like. these dudes just been out here we flew. into coast and there was a couple dudes. that had been there for like months like.

living in this [ __ ] hole you know with. like a a tent and they would get. rocketed every night you know they had a. joke about if they lit a fire they would. get mortared or rocketed and so one. night they cracked a bunch of chem. lights and threw them in a pile where. they still got a rocket. but but yeah I remember looking up to. those guys and they were raggedy and. dirty and had huge Afghani beards and I. can't even grow beard still to this day. but I remember thinking man this dude's. been here a long time like they've been. getting after it and then we finished up. at the end of that rotation went home.

and I was like yeah that was a lot. different than I thought it was going to. be. but yeah no but looking back no is good. like I I got to integrate with the team. um yeah I can't imagine I can't imagine. joining a team in combat in like in Lego. 50607 like that would have been a. completely different experience yeah. well let's take a quick break okay and. uh when we come back we'll get into Iraq. cool.

thank you.

there's a whole Fleet of a look on the. Asa. the very word secrecy is repugnant in a. free and open Society. and we are as a people inherently and. historically. opposed to secret societies. the secret Oaths and the secret. proceedings. there's a secret government with its own.

Air Force its own Navy its own funding. mechanism that's above the law and free. from the law itself you know that's. something that most people have to. understand first off here. U.S officials have confirmed to ABC news. that another high altitude object was. shot down Sunday afternoon. you've briefed every president since. Bill Clinton on the subject of UFOs. [Music].

what we're dealing with is not a. sanctioned or even a normal Black. Project. and I can say this with authority. because I am working now with people who. literally manage the black budget of the. United States. this morning questions after more. unidentified objects are discovered over. U.S and Canadian airspace you have three. personal friends that have been. assassinated since I believe May 9th of. 2001. this is a patriotic Duty.

given what is at stake and how intact is. the constitutional government United. States how do you have that much money. unaccounted for they say you know it. costs two billion dollars a plane to. make the B2 stealth. 50 million the rest of it goes through. the back door into these unsanctioned. projects that neither the president nor. the Congress knows never mind the. American people Dr Greer welcome to the. Sean Ryan Show.

all right Chris we're back. you just did a pump in Afghanistan your. first one at the unit. come back now you're going to Iraq how. long did you come home for before you're. heading over to Iraq yeah we got home in. July. um I think. by midfall we were in full blown we knew. that we were potentially going to invade. Iraq and we were doing a full-blown. you know prep training for doing a.

long-range desert Mobility. um and invade in the country. uh and then I think we deployed. in February of 03. uh to RR Saudi Arabia which was our. staging point to kick off The Invasion. no [ __ ] when did so. I mean how did that feel. knowing that you're gonna go. be on the initial front for invading a. country wild yeah I mean we were excited.

um. one there was the historic nature of it. uh so take away all the sides of going. to war and not going to war when you. train to be a part of one of the most. elite organizations on the planet you. know it's like practicing to play in a. football game you know you want to play. in the football game so we were we were. pumped we were excited we were excited. that we were chosen to be the the the. force that did that particular Mission. set. there was some Legacy there so.

um the unit had done long-range desert. mobility in the first Gulf War. um basically hunting scuds in the. western desert of Iraq to try to. eliminate that threat and saddam's. ability to influence things outside of. the country and shoot those missiles. into Saudi Arabia and other countries in. this particular case it was a different. Mission set but along the same lines. um so we were basically hunting wmd. throughout the Western desert current. Intel beliefs and hindsight does a lot.

of things to the Iraq War you and I both. know but at the time we firmly believe. that he had some type of wmd in whatever. form we assumed it was chemical at that. time and that if he was going to have it. that it was going to be stored not in in. Baghdad or to create but it was going to. be outside of the city. um in one of their outstations of their. animal supply points that were moving. West out of Baghdad and into the Western. desert so yeah we were excited uh. nervous I think. um but the Legacy piece you know having.

been done in the first Gulf War and then. you know the last time a desert Mobility. was done prior to that was like way back. in World War II like in North Africa. um so it was a pretty neat thing to. train and prepare for it was different. it's not like you covered desert. mobility in in OTC. um you know I'd never I think I probably. had as much experience as anybody in. that you know I had done that that. rotation to Kuwait with a mechanized. unit. um so I personally I understood what it. was like to be out unsupported in the.

middle of the desert and Crossing long. distances. um so yeah I was super pumped and. excited for it. uh the weird part was when I got to our. Saudi Arabia this is our universe. discussion right here so when I got to. our Saudi Arabia there were two other. units that were co-located with us. one was some components of third range. battalion. one of which was Charlie Company third. range of tine which is the company that. I was a part of no [ __ ] the other was a.

one company from the 82nd Airborne. Division which were accompanying like a. high Mars Detachment or something else. but it was Alpha Company second three. two five damn so literally two of the. three other organizations I had ever. been a part of were all in that same. spot at that point in time in history. and I've thought about that over the. years I'm like what are the odds if I'd. have stayed in third range of Battalion. and you know I don't know what I would. have been at that point probably a squad. leader or something but I would have.

been right there if I would have stayed. in Alpha comedy second three two five I. would have been right there. damn that's a really weird that is crazy. yeah so that I think that even at the. time I think I took that like this is. where I'm supposed to be and what I'm. supposed to be doing and I think I had a. lot more at least personal conference. confidence going into that than I did. going to Afghanistan because I had. deployed once I've gotten to know my. team. um I felt like we had trained and. prepared very well for that and uh we.

were ready to go. how long are you there before you guys. crossed the border a couple weeks I. think yeah. um. it was not a very good it was a kind of. miserable existence they. slowly but surely shoved a bunch of. people into that area and we didn't have. the support structure to do it so like. in the beginning we had like four porta. potties for like 400 dudes oh. so they were literally overflowing it. was disgusting uh it was cold like the.

weather wasn't great it was Winter still. on the desert. um yeah but I think it was a couple of. weeks before we uh yeah got our like. last mission brief and. speech from the Json commander and and. off we went damn I can't even imagine. the the anticipation of. I mean is it going to be today is did. you guys know what it was going to be no. like the exact day no not that I recall. in the beginning I mean they would do.

team leader meetings and stuff every day. and they would talk about things but I. don't remember us having a hard date. until shortly before we left. um but like I said we weren't there that. long. uh you know there's there's a in most of. the portions of that border between Iraq. and Saudi Arabia there's a double berm. system. um that's really all that separates it. it's not like there's fencing or. anything else and so there's two berms. and then at various intervals with miles. and miles between them are Iraqi. outposts that are like Towers.

um where they would post you know Iraqi. military guys uh to sort of keep Watch. On the Border. um so we knew we had to cross those two. berms we were going to do it in between. outposts. um that Aviation assets helos you know. 160th guys we're going to take out the. two outposts on either side and a radio. communications point to hopefully. silence their ability to say hey someone. has crossed into our country. how did it go uh good yeah like we. started out I think we drove most of the.

first night. um just getting to the border from where. we were uh so we spent a night out in. the desert in Saudi Arabia where we all. just sort of bagged out uh and it was. really cold like we actually I think we. got a little snow that night uh like. nothing that stuck but you know you're. in the middle of the desert and it snows. and it reminded me of I read uh SAS guy. Andy mcnabb's book Bravo 2-0 and he. talks about it in that before their. incident where they got snow I remember. thinking wow that's weird like you don't. expect to get snowed on in the desert. but but yeah we had a little snow it was.

cold we had every piece of snow gear we. owned on I was driving most of the time. like as a newer guy on the team. um I drove the the pensacower the. six-wheel unarmored vehicle that our. team was on um and we had an ATV in our. team as well so I drove the Gower. in this case Brad drove the ATV and we. would rotate. um positions he and I drive in one or. the other because you couldn't drive the. ATV every night because we had uh thumb. throttles yeah and you'd get that Jello. thumb from holding that throttle down.

all the time but yeah we spent the night. in Saudi Arabia moved up to the Berm. they had done some aerial reconnaissance. and they had found a bulldozer that was. sitting all by itself in the location on. the Saudi Arabian side. who knows who it belonged to but we had. mechanics with us which is interesting. too but in order to support our element. we needed that technical expertise so. those guys invaded right along with us. on our vehicles nice. um and they hot wired the bulldozer and. used the bulldozer to plow down enough. of the berm that we could drive the.

vehicles over. and so after they had finished plowing. the berm we kind of coordinated efforts. 160th came in and all we heard you know. was the calls over the radio but they. basically smoked the two guard towers on. either side and and we drove into Iraq. did you start engaging people no no so. we didn't how long did it take uh. I don't remember if it was the first. night or the second night so we had a. series of targets planned along the way.

uh we would drive all night basically. under night vision we had some other. technology on our side like we had we. had ground-based flear balls at the time. it was the first time they were used. um you know other than that it was like. helos and aircraft and stuff like that. but they didn't have them on. ground-based vehicles and so we actually. had them on like every I think we had. three total for the Squadron. uh and my vehicle was one of the ones. with the flares so I had this big LCD. screen between me and Chile who was the. team leader at the time and he was.

sitting in the TCC you know in the. passenger seat of the Gower and so I. could see everything he looked at with. the flare ball so that was nice. but uh either the first or second night. we had bedded down for our rest over day. site so we'd find a a water or a. depression or something to hide in put. camo netting out put out security and. then get some rack for the day eat some. Chow Etc. and we woke up to an aircraft fire. um like boom boom boom boom boom boom. boom boom and it went on for like 30. minutes and it sounded like it was just.

over like the next rise like it was. really close and that was probably the. first like. okay we're in a we just invaded a. country and we're at War. um and it won't be long before we're. involved in something and I think if we. had a big fear during all that time it. was that we were in unarmored vehicles. you guys were an unarmored vehicle no. armor whatsoever all that technology and. you had an armored why did you have. unarmored vehicles uh the because the. platforms were built for long-range. desert Mobility okay.

um you know we had a lot of guns you. know like I think our defense was we're. gonna put more stuff in your direction. than you can put in ours we had some. anti-tank weapons you know with that we. brought with us uh we had some crew. serve stuff on top of each one of the. vehicles but yeah unarmored Vehicles. there really wasn't an option other than. that to cover that kind of distance and. we were having to drive thousands of. miles yeah I guess uh I mean. [ __ ] I guess IEDs weren't like a huge. thing though no I wasn't even on the. radar yet. um and we were literally driving across.

the desert it wasn't like we were on. roads like we were in Navan across open. desert okay. um and then yeah so that an aircraft. fire that that first morning. um and then shortly after I think we hit. our first Target uh which was an Iraqi. Outpost uh an ammo supply point so it. was basically just like you see at. airfields like in the US where they have. like all of the bunkers all over it was. one of those that was used for storing. ammunition. um and yeah we did a hit on basically.

the guard Outpost where they were. uh it was the first time some shots were. fired and uh I wasn't I was driving so I. drove up to the Target house some stuff. happened in the beginning and you know. some couple of Iraqi guards were shot. and then we made entry into the facility. but it was minimal Skeleton Crew out. there. uh and then we proceeded to clear. basically every bunker in the ammo. supply Point looking for wmd so don't. know what we were task to do. uh and that sort of continued for a. while we did that at numerous locations. some with a little more activity than.

others in a lot of cases we would pull. up short use the flare ball uh and call. in Cass call in close air support and. drop a bunch of bombs on an objective. before we would move in so different. mindset than we were used to you know as. a. counterterrorism force or a hostage. rescue force or whatever we were we were. basically doing you know infantry tactic. raid style missions on these compounds. so that was a little different yeah. um and and kind of cool just to do full.

you know the full gamut but we. definitely owned the night we could see. them miles and miles before they could. see us. um and we definitely had you know there. wasn't anybody in country yet so we had. all the air assets it was I think we. were in country for four days uh when. the first Valley of tomahawk missiles. and all that stuff got fired into Iraq. and when they started the push from the. south so we had been in country for a. little bit and done a few things before. any of the regular Invasion actually. started. damn that's pretty that's pretty [ __ ].

cool man I mean that's that's that's U.S. history. next on the Sean Ryan Show. yesterday. December the 13th. at around 8 30 p.m Baghdad time. United States military forces captured. Saddam Hussein alive. uh they shifted over and hit the next. Farm uh and then yeah shortly after that. they uncovered the rug with the Rope to.

the cork plug and the Hole uh pulled the. cork out and saw this looking down on a. guy pulled him out of the hole and it. was Saddam. just hearing that and being in that. place was. made me realize how evil that son of a. [ __ ] actually was. [Music]. Christmas Day. [Music]. 2003 we had caught Saddam on December. 13th this is two weeks later and it was.

Christmas morning and we're like what. the heck is that and we're like. listening and we walk and we look over. and we look over the balcony and down on. the lower level is these guys that work. for us that are singing Christmas carols. for the first time probably ever damn in. English because they were so happy that. they were in a place where they weren't. going to be prosecuted for their. religious beliefs.

thank you. hey everybody I'm Sean Ryan click here. to subscribe to the Sean Ryan Show. YouTube channel for the hottest and most. compelling interviews that you will not. see anywhere else I've also made a. playlist of all the previous SRS. episodes so they're easy to find you can. find that. right here.