Chris Miller - The Hunt for Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi | SRS #88

Previously on the Shawn Ryan Show. Something triggered in us this desire to. go serve. Combat, yeah, that's what we. do, right? That's why would you join if. that wasn't the goal? Oh, I want to get. my college money. Hey, good with you if. you want your college money, but you. don't go into Navy SEALs or Army Special. Operations if you're looking for college. money, right? Yeah. You don't. The the one only thing. that really mattered in my military. career was. response to September 11, 2001. Dog on. pickup truck high works comes whipping.

by. This guy, legendary CIA officer who. I won't refer to here, but you've met. With this great bushy bust mustache. goes, "Hey, cowboy, need a lift?". And. I remember jumping into this hole. That's where the J-dam hit. And I. remember looking down, Shawn. And I was like, "Who's been eating hamburger out here?". Oh, man. You you're showing people.

that veterans like, "Hey, you can do. things other than the old Oh, I'll go be. a contractor." Which I believe there's. over 8 billion podcasts. So, we're good. Yeah, everybody and their sister has a. dog on podcast right now, and you're. number 10. It's got to be really. rewarding. All right, Chris, we're back from the. break. I want to cover a little bit more. about your career. At what point in your. career were you at when we got Baghdadi? I had left government. I mean, I hit or. I had left the service. I had.

I hit uh. I got promoted to colonel. Uh. and then I got. uh selected to continue on uh in command. and. I just. A Well, I'll just tell you I needed to. take the year off. I needed to be at. home. My I hit I made a vow to myself. My family could care less, but I said, "Each kid their senior high school, I. will be in the United States for I will.

not deploy.". Sounds silly, but that was just a. personal thing I wanted to do. They. could Kids could care less. Not like, "Oh, Dad, let's go hang out together.". They didn't want to hang out with me, but I wanted to be there for that for. that year. I'd been selected for command. 06 command colonel command, big deal, right? And it would have required me to. deploy. the year of my. eldest kid's senior year of high school.

And I asked for, you know, a waiver. Could I do this later? I said, "Hey, I'll go any place in the world. next year. I just need 1 year here." And. they're like, "Thank you very much. No." So, I declined taking command and. at that point I knew my career was over. because you do that. That's fine, you. know. I'm not It's like, "Hey, no regrets, you. know." Uh but at that point I knew my. career. was over and I was ready to leave.

And. um. Cuz you take you take that job in the. army, it means you're on the short list. to, you know, advance. Mhm. And I had to look myself in the mirror. and I said I never have done anything in. my army career, you know, for myself. It's always been selfless service. And if I did this, it wouldn't be about. self. Cuz I get all my buds like, "You. got to do this, man. We need you.". I said, "If I do this, this will be.

about ego. and I'll be be about me and how can you. look yourself in the mirror and say that. you're true to yourself if you do this?". So, it sounds kind of really like, I. know, flighty, but that's where I was in my. life at the time, you know, and decided. to leave the service. Uh res retired and became a contractor. at the Pentagon, which was fascinating because you go. from being, you know, the guy the head.

of the table to be the person that can't. even be brought into the meeting that. you would have chaired the day before. and now they're like, which I thought. was great, you know, it's really hubris. humility. It's It was great to do that. And. but, man, the contracting gig, I don't know how it. was for you. I was like, "I need a sta I. couldn't figure out I need a stable. job." So, if you're in a government. town, what do you do? Go into. government. Got a. permanent government job. Um called.

general service GS job, you know, like. where you can't be fired. And you get like 30 days off a year or. something. I'm like, "I like this. My. parents are older. I always need to have. some time off.". And. became a government employee and I had. the worst job in the history like I was. the guy I used to make fun of. I was in. thing called intelligence oversight. Do you remember where you you would have.

to like initial your safe each night. that you closed it to show that it was. locked or the door Remember the door? You know, you had to spin the lock and. initial. I'm the guy who goes around to. inspect to make sure that you initialed. the Yeah. I'm like, "This is. from being a special operations colonel. to that? Yep. Interesting. Yeah. And I. literally. It was 8 hours a day. I crammed 1 hour. of work into 8 hours. It was.

amazing. And my friend, thank God, called me one day, Chris. Costa. He was running counterterrorism. at the White House. He was leaving. Said, "Would you like to interview for. my job?" I always tell my children, "Always interview for a job. You're. going to learn something and who knows, you might get it." And so, I. interviewed. I got his job. So, I'm a. government employee on loan from the. Pentagon to the White House to run. counterterrorism.

That's where I get the crazy idea to. defeat Al-Qaeda. Part of that is ISIS. President Trump, you know, comes in, says we're going to defeat ISIS like. enough of this messing around. Decentralizes decision-making. Lets war fighters make decisions on how. to operate. And the leader of ISIS was Abu Bakr. al-Baghdadi. Brilliant guy.

But lit. I usually don't do good and evil when. you're talking about your enemy. I don't. think it's helpful. I think it col. colors your judgment. This guy was the. definition of evil. Uh he. was an evil man. Can you describe some. of the stuff. He uh Well, the most the most dramatic. one is this uh. this missionary, Kayla Mueller, American. missionary trying to help out over there. was kidnapped and and he uh.

he she became his, you know, basically. slave. Uh unbelievable. uh just. barbaric not just with her, but other. people. Um. And. he was the head of ISIS and we're like, you know, obviously we got to. kill this guy. And Well, let's get a little more in. detail. What was he doing to her? Cuz I. want This is this is going to be history. here. Yeah.

It's already been said. I really. I know the family and I really don't. want to cause any more heartache. Uh. but it was barbaric. All You take the. worst thing you can imagine and he was. doing that to Kayla Mueller. We we did. an operation to go in there one night um. to get her. Uh. she was not there. We, when I say that, our our counterterrorism forces did. Man, it was a hell of a fight. They It. was epic, but I wasn't there for that. I. was in the White House. Uh but yeah, so.

that's why I'm really reluctant like the. pain and suffering the family's been. through. Uh but you use your imagination. and then some. Well, let's talk about. just ISIS in general then. Yeah. You know, so some of the things. ISIS. they the way they took Yazidi women, which is this weird Christian sect and. turned them into sex slaves. The way. they. Well, you remember seeing the videos. where they burned the Jordanian pilot. Think about the mass executions, beheadings. I mean, that was just par.

for the course and he was the leader of. that thing and you know, leadership. matters and they his his. forces were a representation of his, you. know, barbarity, you know. He would burn. people alive, behead them, put kids in. cages, burn them alive, put kids in. cages, put them in the rivers, drown. them to death, just just groups of kids. Just pick it. You know, heads on poles, all the worst. of the worst [ __ ] And you know, there.

was a lot of controversy around when he. was killed, if I remember correctly. That was roughly What was that? September or no, was that December or. January of. 2019? Yeah. Tw December 2019, I think it was. What were you picking up? I don't The. controversy was. lot of controversy. um. when we killed him. with the drone strike. Am I correct on that? we we put ground force in and killed. him. Okay. I'm thinking of something.

This is the American in Yemen. Okay. That they killed What was that guy's. name? He was an American citizen that. went over there. There's a book about Yeah, that's the. guy you're That was huge controversy. because the first time we killed an. American citizen, right? Yeah. Yemen, wasn't it? Yeah. Okay. But so, Baghdadi back to. Baghdadi. Baghdadi, evil of evil. Uh everybody's looking for him. His. trade craft is really good. Like he's. not he's using couriers. Nobody gets.

near him with a cell phone. He's moving. But man, Sean, you know this. When our intelligence officers put their. mind to it and our special operators put. their mind to it, you can run, but you. can't hide. Mhm. And we just kept on. that guy's trail. and just incrementally you kept. collapsing his space where he could. maneuver. And. you get we didn't have good reporting.

for quite a while. But finally, you know, I think it was a driver or one. of. it was one of these functionaries around. Baghdadi. said something to one of our one of our. people, one of our sources. And then word comes back like, "Hey, Baghdadi's in this compound.". Here we go again, right? How many times. have we heard this? At this point, the.

whole operation goes com-. I get cut out of it. Like I'm running. the counterterrorism. But CIA and our counterterrorism forces. decide that they're going to keep this. very close hold, rightfully so. I get. that. But I'm I'm in charge. counterterrorism, so I'm a little bit. I'm a little bit butt hurt. I'll tell. you it just straight up. Like, what the. hell? The the thing that I think a lot of. those. people the senior officials believe is. that they can control. like they know more than we do. The.

problem was. I'd been a Green Beret. I had a whole. network of people all over the military. and we had a person who is. on the task force for Baghdadi. who. who was a friend who is. keeping us up to date on what's going. on. So, I had a whole separate and this. isn't like some leak thing or anything. We're all read on. to um like. they just didn't want to share that. particular information to us. So, I'm.

tracking this thing. They don't even know we're tracking it. We get a we we finally get positive. identification that, "Oh yeah, he's. there.". Definitely there. Um. and then. and it's this very. to example of how we can do things. really well in our government when you. just let people in the field do it, right? Like keep keep headquarters out of it. Intelligence officers in the field, the. special operators in the field, just. going great, collaborating.

You know, maybe the special operators. need a tracking tool that they don't. have access to, but the intelligence. community does. It's just working great, man. So, finally. gets down to like positive. identification, definitely there. Forces trained. Here's. You had a great part in one of your. episodes, previous episode where you kind of. talked about the evolution of our. counterterrorism forces. In the past, like think about Son Tay,

which was this great first commando raid. during the Vietnam War. Famous raid. Think about the Bin Laden. raid. where you took special you took forces, brought them together, and trained them. specifically for that mission. And then they did it and then they came. home. We had advanced so much in our tactics, techniques, and our procedures, and our. professionalism of our counterterrorism. forces that the force that was in. Iraq, Syria at the time, the.

counterterrorism force, they just took. the mission. They're like, "Another another mission. No big deal." Can you believe that? No. Like just. it was just uh The dudes in the field. are like, "We got this.". Holy [ __ ] When are we going? Backwards plan, plan our crap, send it. back for approval. What's the timeline. here? Oh, you know, quick. Like. somebody will correct me. It seemed like. maybe 3 days. That's it? For that kind.

of an operation? Yeah. And that Now, president's got to. sign off on that, right? Cuz we're taking forces. that are in this contested area in Syria. that is kind of under. it's not under. Assad, the leader of Syria's control. It's like the rebel area. That's where. we are. We're going to fly our forces in cuz. Baghdadi's smart. He's like, "I'm going to stay. in an area.

under Assad's control cuz it'll be more. secure because the Americans aren't. going to come in here, right? It'll be. an international incident or whatever.". So, of course, we're going to go into. Assad's backyard. Idlib I think it was. Idlib. I think that's a province. I. forgot. Um. So, president's getting briefed on this, right? I'm not briefed. Remember all those life insurance ads on. the TV and on the radio when you were a. kid? Probably not because.

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But I know what's going on. So, I'm like, "All right, that's okay.". Call my buddy at the Pentagon. He.

He acts like he doesn't know what's. going on. I'm like, "Some friend you are. That's okay.". Get a call. It's a Saturday. Get a call about 1:00 in the afternoon. from our source. in the counterterrorism task force. "It's going tonight.". I was like, "Thanks.". Jump in my car, go to work. Go to the White House situation room.

You know, walk in, go to the White House. situation room. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Mark Milley's there. He's got his two. communicators. You know, these two these. two kit kids. They are kids, but these. two signal computer experts and their. job, cuz on the screen they're going to. have two screens that have the uh. uh Predator the in- the video feeds. coming in live of the target and all. this stuff. And I sit down at the big table.

My boss is Robert O'Brien. He's the. National Security Advisor. He had not. told me what was going on, either. He. comes walking in later, sees me sitting. there. He's like, "Chris, what are you doing here?" I'm like, "I'm. the head of counterterrorism for the. president. My job is to be here." How did you know? I'm like, "Robert, it's my job to know.". So, we're in the we're in the situation. room, you know, the. s- I'm kid from Iowa, right? I'm like,

"Holy crap, I'm in the situation room. We're going to do one of the. one of the probably mo- more important. like this is going to be up there with. Bin Laden, Zawahiri. This is going to be. up there as the top five commando hits. of all time, right? And. I'm there. And. the operation, the president is playing. golf that day. And you know, they wanted. to keep him playing golf so that the. press wouldn't pick up on any changes of. routine. So, he's out there.

About 5:00 our time in Washington, D.C., the assault force launches in their. helicopters. And I can't remember how. many helicopters. It was 12 helicopters. The issue now, you know this, but for those that. aren't, you know, haven't been part of. these things or are learning, flat desert. Syrian, Russian controlled. Russians are there, remember.

We're over here. They have their radars. on. So, they can see exactly what's. happening. Cuz remember, it's flat it's. ta- it's like billiards. It's like a. pool table. So, the assault force picks up right. away. Uh, the chairman says something like, "I. hope this isn't the start of World War. III.". I hadn't really thought of it that way. I'm like, "Oh, damn. Yeah, Russians, helicopters, if they shoot.

There was also uh the Russians had a. fighter up like a suit MiG-29. I can't. remember what it was. You know, advanced. doing combat air patrol. over kind of the area. Okay. So, now you got Russian radar on, Russian Syrian radar on, you got a dog. on. fourth generation fighter orbiting and. they all see our assault force pick up. And. as they start flying and they cross the.

border. Yeah, that's like the come to Jesus. time, right? Are the Russians going to. fire or not? If they fire, we're done. And. the Russian radars. go Like I guess, I don't know this for a. fact, but I guess you you know, they. they can have their their status is like. enemy. uh. or uh. continue to monitor or something. And they turn their radars not off, but. they turn their radars to passive.

meaning I guess in the in the air. defense world, that means like you're. not going to fire. It was like, "Oh, man. Okay." And then we saw the MiG. MiG-29. move south. So, somebody made a call like we're not. screwing with these guys. Like let him. go. Nothing to see here. Like look the. other way. La la la la la la la. But that I. no kidding, you know, I'd never been in. the headquarters for something like. that, right? I'd always either either.

been in in the truck or in in in the. helicopter or something. Not of anything. this important, obviously. But uh. to see it from that perspective was. completely different. How did that feel? Just being in there. Yeah, come on, man. Part of me is like, I. would literally give my left you know. what to be on that helicopter right now. But that's not my job anymore. My job is. to be here. uh to provide advice and counsel to the.

president if he asks. And uh. So, I thought that was a hell of a. presidential decision because he knew. that he knew the decision calculus on. that. He knew this whole thing could go. bad really really like epically bad like. Desert One at. in uh Iran in 1979, you know, that bad. Like that can ruin. you know, that can end your presidency, right? Uh and he made the call to go ahead and. execute cuz the other one was like, "Why. don't we just put missile strike in on.

it? Heck with it." And we're like, "No, we got to know we got the guy." Cuz in. this area this era of information. warfare, like they're still arguing. about if so-and-so is still alive, you. know? We're like, "No, we need to go. like we need to have some uh his flesh. to do DNA testing on.". Off goes the assault force. You've got your. uh drones up. filming everything. Assault force goes in. lands. And here's the other one. Did you.

ever do call outs? Like remember in our. day you just went in and just like blew. down the door, assaulted the the house. or building. Didn't give any warning. Well. during the course of the war as the. situations changed, they now they did a. call out meaning. the assault force surrounded the house. Dude with a micro you know, a. what do you call it? A mic bullhorn is. like, "Hey.

let we you're surrounded. Come out with. your hands up." And. um lo and behold like bunch of women and. kids start streaming out. Like I can't. remember how many like 20 of them. Come streaming out of this house. Uh translators and interpreters are. like, "What's going on? Is bad daddy in. there?" And they're like, "Oh, yeah, he's in there.". He's in there. He's got a suicide vest. on. And he's uh got three women with him. that are also his wives.

One of which was like 14 or something, you know? Can you believe this Can you. believe that crap? I mean, I believe it now cuz the shit's. going on right here in the home in the. home front, you know? Man, it's getting. Well, that's another conversation. Do the call out. They're like, "He's in. there." Okay, well, we're going to go. get time to. time to dig him out. Uh. and. um.

they send the dog in. They sent uh No, I. think they sent a robot in robot in. first. You know, "Oh, he's here." He had built out like a. fighting position slash slash safe room. in the back. They're like, "Oh, no, he's. here and yeah, there are three women. here.". And the only way we're going to get this. done is going to have to put some. commandos in here to. dig him out, kill his ass, right? And. so then. What unit is this? Uh this is the army.

Okay. Did you see me wink? This is the. army counterterrorism element that. remains nameless that is that you all. know and you can say it, but I can't say. it. Uh. uh and you've had many of their members. on your show before. Yeah. They cuz they were the. task force that was in Syria-Iraq at the. time. Okay. So, they did the operation. And uh. President we're all watching the screen, you know, and you know how watching ISR. is it's kind of like murky and you can't.

really tell what's going on. But you can see it's game on time. You. can see the explosions boom boom boom. You're sitting there. like what's going on? But you don't want to ask because you. know they're busy. And I got to tell you. this. President, vice president, Milley. uh senior military leadership were all. extremely. you know, patient. Cuz there's nothing. worse Remember when you're getting. yelled at by your boss, you're like, "Hey, I'm working right now. I'll give.

you a situation report when it's done. Stop bothering me." I was really. impressed that nobody nobody put any. stress on. You can see explosions going off and. you're like, "Oh, man. I. This is this is the. fatal funnel, you know? We Nothing we. can do about it. Let's see what. happens.". But. not too much later the report comes. back. Yep, um. that uh. suspect or whatever, you know, the. target detonated himself.

Um and we're now going to collect DNA to. see if it was him. And. uh Did you say we're now going to. collect or we are not going to. We are. They are. And then I'm flashing. back to like the poor kid who's on. sensitive site exploitation, right? He's. like, "I got to go in there." And he has. suicide vest on. And you know what. happens with suicide vest? The dude's. head's going to pop off, right? Remember? Uh I tell in my book the story. I had a buddy next to me. He was. flashing back to me in an Iraq uh.

when he had to go find the head. And of course, I know what's going on. Like, "Okay, they're going to find the. head. They're going to do the forensics. and they're going to do the biometrics. and they'll look at the distance between. the eyes, ears, you know, all that crap. But you got to find the head first." And. I'm just sitting there going, "Oh, man. Can you imagine that kid in there with. his SureFire. smoke billowing, probably fire going on, looking for the guy's head. And uh the task force commander, the.

ground force commander. really was impressive that he would not. they call it you know, calling jackpot. Jackpot indicating that the target that. you were going after is either captured. or killed. And he would not call jackpot even. though we know it's Baghdadi, right? He's like, "Not calling jackpot.". Finally, this the four-star commander. that's overseeing the operation, this. guy's General McKenzie. He calls and goes, "Ground force.

commander is not going to call jackpot. right now, but he. assesses with a strong degree of. confidence that the target has been. killed." And at that point, you know, you're like, "Oh, man.". Thing gets done. President leaves. I'm. not leaving. Milley's not leaving. Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. cuz we're like, "They're still on. target, man." Oh, and then gunfights. start blowing up all around, right? Cuz. it's the. it's the classic.

Wow, something's going on. So, things. are getting heating up, right? Gunships. are making gun runs now. And President's. like, "What's going on here?" We're. like, "Mr. President, there is a. gunfight going on right now." He's like, "Okay." Uh. so. Is that what he said? Okay. Yeah, he's. like, "Okay. All right." Um. then the um. cuz we're not going to leave until the. task force is back in friendly territory. cuz there's a lot of bad stuff can still. happen. So, pretty much everybody's gone. I'm.

there. Milley's there. Maybe a couple of. other people. President's gone. Vice. President's gone. Secretary of Defense. is gone. All these people have gone. because it's like, "Mission over. See. you later." I'm like, "Yeah, they're. still on target, you know.". And um. cuz there's still some ten you know, for. us there's still tension. Everybody. People that don't know about operations. are like, "Whatever. High five on the. way." Yeah. We want to see our guys come. home. Right. So, Milley and I are there. And um. casually report comes in.

One assaulter had stepped on a nail that. had gone through his boot. That was the. only casualty. That's it. And I said. Amazing. I said. the American public ex- I'm worried. because this was the most flawless. operation that I've ever seen conducted. And the American public now is going to. come to expect that level of performance.

which is so hard to achieve in the. military, right? Fog, friction. And. they got it done. They came back and were. um. shutting it down and everybody all the. commanders and military people now are. like. you know, tension is and it's not. euphoric, but everybody's kind of. you know, becoming friendly because we. went through this together. And uh.

McKenzie, the four-star general that. oversaw the operation from Tampa, calls. in to Milley, who's the chairman of the. Joint Chiefs of Staff, who's advising. the president. He's. only a couple of us left. And he goes, "Chairman, do you want to know. what uh. the task force name was?". Cuz usually they just come up with some. [ __ ] number, right? Task Force 529. or whatever the hell it was.

Uh we're like, "Yeah, sure." And he. goes, "It was they named it after uh. Kayla Mueller.". No kidding. "That's amazing. Is that cool?" That is. amazing. They're like, "Justice will be. served, man. Don't don't be [ __ ] with. the United States. I mean, come on, Shawn. What was that guy thinking? Like. he thought he was going to get away with. this crap? Like we will hunt you to the. end of the earth. It might take us 25, 30 damn years, man. I It just I don't. understand why our enemies think that.

And I know there's this narrative now. like, 'Oh, we're soft.' Anybody who. believes that crap. and there's a lot of reasons they could. believe it. Man, I don't know. You put put an. American fighting man pissed off, I'll go with him any day, man. That guy I'd love to like, man, I'd love. to. Bin Laden thought the same thing, didn't. he? Like, "Oh, they're soft. They won't. fight." I wonder what he'd say now, man. We will We will hunt your ass to the end. of the earth, man.

I mean, why do you think people think. that? Yeah. Yeah, we could go on all day. We give them plenty of reasons to think. it, don't we? Yeah. Their constant. babble about. stupid stuff and. you know, we give them plenty of. information that would support their. conclusion that somehow, you know, we've. lost our our martial spirit or. man, how many people have made that mistake? Yeah. I mean, I think I think a lot of.

it comes from. I mean, we saw a lot of it in this war, you know, these last two wars and. prosecuting our own guys for doing their. job. That's the other thing, man. With only. seven I think most people that have. served when they heard those stories. like, yeah, that's the nature of war. That happens. It's you know, I still can't tell a lot of these. stories exactly what happened, but. that's my thing is like. hey, when we open the can of whoop ass,

when the United States decides to open. the can of whoop ass, this is no joke. Yeah. And back. bad things are going to happen. People. are going to be injured or killed. Innocents are going to be killed. Families are going to be destroyed, man. Like destroyed. Cuz you know, like. blowing over and over again, that just. destroys marital relationships. Pathologies come out from all of that. stress. that.

is completely predictable. And that's why we have to take going to. war a hell of a lot more seriously if. you ask me. And I'm I'm good with going. to war, don't get me wrong. But let's just accept up front. that we're going to destroy a generation. of people. That's That's my thing. And if it's. worth it, let's do it. I This was worth it. Afghanistan was worth it. You think? I think in the beginning stages it was. Yeah, we should have left. You know, I.

do I think in the beginning stages it. was and then, you know, it and then. exactly what you say, you know, the PX's. started getting built. Burger King. showed up. Yeah. You know, Green Bean. Coffee showed up. Pizza Hut showed up. airport, I chuckled when I came in. yesterday. I was like, "Green Bean's. here." And then and then you begin you. start to realize. this is a [ __ ] business. Yeah. This isn't war. This is a [ __ ]. business. This is a business. This is.

war. made to conduct business. Mhm. And. that's That's when I started to realize. a lot of this is [ __ ] [ __ ]. But um. The hustle. But I do I do think in the. beginning stages. Yeah. Should have dropped the hammer and left. Yeah. It was when the bureaucracy came in. They tied our hands behind their back. It's like fighting with one leg. I always said it should Afghanistan. should have stayed at 200, 300 special.

operators. That way. uh and I get yelled at now by like the. generals and the senior people like, "You don't understand, Chris." I was. like, "No, I think I do, actually. I was. there." Yeah. We should have kept that a. special operations war. We should have. just used indigen- We should have used. the host nation. You can't want it more. than they do, right? And when we industrialized that thing. like you described and everybody started. getting paid, uh it's all over then. Yeah.

Yeah, you know, it just. it's. it got to a point where I felt like I. was fooled. to go in. I. You had the same thing. I felt like now. I know who the sucker is. It's me. Yeah. You had the same thing? Oh, yeah. What did that feel like? I I. still bothers me. Still not over it. I I. say the same thing. You know, and it it. it it. it sucks. I don't know what to tell.

kids, you know, I mean, like I have a. big media presence. Everybody knows I was a SEAL. Everybody. knows that I contracted for CIA and a. lot of. a lot I get a lot of emails and messages. and DMs and. from youth that wanted to fall into. those footsteps just like we did and. I got to be honest, Chris. I don't I. don't know what to tell them these days. Oh, man, that breaks my heart. What. would you tell them? I back to my dad like there's there's.

absolute integrity in service. If that's. something that is drawn to you, uh. but. take care of yourself, too. Yeah. Um. there I mean, there's great nobility in. service. And you know, we always talk about who. do you fight for? The guy on the person. on the left and right. And yeah, I guess. it really comes down to that, but I. man, it's like accountability, dude. I mean, like.

there's there I I sense. that our leadership their example is. breaking faith. with those that are serving under them. That's Yeah, cuz I was always raised. like do as I do as I say, do as I do. And I'm telling you, man, working at the. Pentagon and you get exposed to all the. politics and how that works and the. general officers and how advancement. goes there. I literally was like, "I'm seeing people. that are. do as I say, not do as I say,

not as I do." Yeah. And I'm like, "That's [ __ ] because that's not the. way I was raised." And I'll tell you. what, I'm hearing it. When you see these. dumbass these decisions. Now, the. political civilian leadership can make. any decision they want. They're allowed. to. That's how it works. There's that. military senior military. level that is supposed to provide their. advice and they and the with a lot of.

the people that are seeing stupid. civilian decisions that are being made. and military leadership not standing up. and saying this is wrong. And so, they're down there in the. they're down there in the trenches, right? They're down there in the team. room. And they're being brought up in a. certain way. Speak your mind, integrity, ethics, morality, all that stuff that we. were. was embedded in us as warriors, right? And then they see their leadership not.

acting the same way. There's there's a dichotomy, a. disconnect. And that's That to me is. like. that's what really worries me, man. It's. like there's there's a break breaking of. faith and trust and confidence. I That's. what I'm seeing. I see it, too. And you know, the the few. the few. acquaintances, friends that I have left. in the community in the special. operations community, which is not very. many anymore, they all say the same thing. They don't.

trust their leadership. You know, they Did Did you feel that way. when you were in SEAL Teams? No. There was always one. Yeah. There was. always one officer that But then there. wasn't but you knew who they were. All. in all, no, I didn't feel like that. I. did start to feel like that. um. you know, I'm going to get my years messed up. I. really started to feel like that. I did a deployment.

with the agency and a. in Lashkar Gah. Mhm. And that was supposed to be. from what I was briefed, the biggest. offensive since since Fallujah. And I remember when the ROEs came out. Now, I didn't fall under those ROEs, that was that was the Marine. um. the Marines that were going to take that. entire. I think they was they were going to take. the entire province if I remember. correctly.

But. I remember when the ROEs came out from. the administration at the time, which. was the Obama administration's, it was. if you are shot at. and the enemy drops their weapon, you're. not allowed to shoot back. And when I heard that come out. that was a turning point in my mindset. where I was like. these [ __ ] people that we're fighting. for give a [ __ ] more about our enemy. than they do about us. These people are.

chopping our heads off, they're. dismembering us and stuffing our [ __ ]. privates in our mouths, they're burning. people alive, they're beheading people. They're raping [ __ ] girls. And boys. And they're raping boys. They. I mean they. And and this is this is our ROE. What. the [ __ ] we doing here? Yeah, what what And half and it seemed I. mean, you never know cuz it's the media,

right? But. and and they do a great job at. propaganda, but you know, and then and. then you look at the media and it they. make it appear like everybody in America. back home is like for this [ __ ]. And it and and and and you get the. feeling like. what the [ __ ] am I doing over here, man? These people. they don't even. they don't give a [ __ ] if I'm over here. The VA's a disaster. It's a disaster for. all these guys coming home. I've told.

multiple I haven't told, but I that's. that's what this show started as is a. platform for guys to tell their story. And look at the [ __ ] trauma these. guys are dealing with when they come. home. But we made a decision. This country. This is why this is important to me. and be on here. You see and we made a. decision as a country and like. strategy matters. I don't know what that. means, to tell you the truth, but we. decided to fight a war with one. formation, our special operations. formation, right?

They deployed again and again and again. Now, big army, big Marine Corps, they. deployed as well. So, I'm not like this. isn't like giving the finger to all. those that served as well. Cuz it was necessary. Well, it probably wasn't necessary if we would. have just kept it a special operations. war, but nonetheless. So, I I'm I always get yelled at like, "Oh, you're diminishing the sacrifice of. conventional forces." No, I'm not. But. the force. that fought this counterinsurgency.

counterterrorism war counterterrorism. war was. are were special operators across all of. the services. You know, and. like. the sacrifice, man. And that like. my I just remember. uh. like there's this thing called. uh mi- mission first, men always. This. was some sort of act some sort of thing. that we always were trained on. Mission. first, men always. I was like, I don't know what that.

means. And I'd always get yelled at for. asking this question like, "Hey, what. does that mean?". Well, and I get this tap dance. I'm. like, "Actually, they're mutually. exclusive in combat.". Because and I'd be like, "But there's. going to be a time. where you have to go, this man is going. to be destroyed. to accomplish the mission.". So. what what are you saying? Why don't we. just call it like it is? Let's just be. honest with each other. The mission.

comes first. Yeah. And I'm good with that. But my problem is we sold the military. as some sort of. you know. opportunity for improvement and all that. stuff. And that's good. But at the end of the day, it's about. going it's about combat. And you as a fighter. like just you need to recognize you're. completely expendable. I always knew I.

was. Uh but I I would always get. I felt bad, you know, the moral guilt. thing is when you'd have a kid and. you're like get in the truck. Huh? No, we're going up that road and. somebody's going to get blown up and it. could be you. Yeah. And the kid would look at you and be. like I was like, this is what we do. I. think if we were just more honest. about the essence of combat, but then. that comes back to your question your. point. Would anybody ever join if they. knew?

I think they would, actually. I think if. we were just honest with everybody and. didn't see this as some sort of jobs. program or some [ __ ] like that. It's. like, no. That's my that's my hobbyhorse, man. I. was like, just be honest about the. nature of what we do or what they do in. the military. And I think there's too. much confusion about that. We do we one. formation I mean. yeah, and you just like. It's all right, but the trauma that has. been inflicted on a whole generation of. special operators.

is uh. it's pretty is you see it. It's a shame, you know, and and. it's preventable? I think it would help a hell of I think. it would help a hell of a lot if the. country was behind us. I think it would help help a hell of a. lot, too, if we fought our wars. understanding that you can't like that. comes down to special force special. operators can't be mass-produced. You. had to like. Shinseki, Army Chief of Staff, gets. fired because he said, "Don't fight a.

12-division war with 10 divisions." When. we went into Iraq, Rumsfeld fires his. ass, right? But he's absolutely right. Like these are the decisions that matter. and the American public needs to. understand like, "Oh, how much we spend. in defense matters. How big our army. is." And then like don't take on a. 12-division war with 10 divisions. Don't. take on a special operations war with. too few special operators. Dude, we just. burn through them. We just burn through. them. Yeah. Didn't we? Oh, yeah, we did. It's like, hey, some hey.

real quick. I'd be in there and you know, your. commander, you care about your men like. desperately, right? But you still have. to make your mission. Like well, we're in okay, we're back we. we're back from Iraq, refit. get our equipment ready, get everybody's. paperwork ready, take 2 weeks off, come. back and get ready to start. uh pre-mission prep and training for the. next rotation. And the only two people. that I could really trust to tell me.

what's going on, chaplain. and the bat- the surgeon, the doctor. I just say like, "How we looking?" And. they're like, "Sir. coming undone.". I say, "Can we get them out the door. again?". Doc would be like, "Everybody's on. I'm I'm literally shoveling sleeping. pills out the door. I'm shoveling. uh consults with. therapy and all this out the door." I. say, "Can we get them out the door.

again, Doc?" He goes, "We'll get them. out the door again, sir.". But that's what's required, you know, uh. when you fight a war with too few. people. And we just shattered them, man. You're. like, "Oh, man.". Cuz you know your people, right? You're. like. a marriage isn't going to survive. another deployment. You know, you go in. you're like, "Hey, Sergeant so-and-so. why don't we. why don't you stay behind this this trip. on rear detachment?" No, sir, I got to. go. Can't leave my team behind, right?

Yep. So, that's my All right. That was pretty. dark, huh? It is pretty dark. Yeah, I thought we were going to be more. happy. I thought we were going to be. like I thought we were going to be more. positive. That's some dark That's some. dark stuff, man. It is, but you know, people need to talk about it. People. need to understand it, you know, and. people need to appreciate what the [ __ ]. we were doing over there. You know, they. do. And a lot of them don't. But um where were you when Gaddafi when. we got him? I was.

You know, your leading episode the. leading thing was uh. what you carry, right? Mhm. And I told. you. I want to go in to a denied area with a. credit card and a passport. I actually. tried to get into Libya. That thing, you. know, Obama administration put the red. line in and they're like started bombing. them. So, I was at the Pentagon. I got. my boss to agree that I could go to. Stuttgart, Germany on a on a visit. And. I just told my boss, I'm like, "Hey, I'm. going to Libya. I just want to be.

completely clear with you like I know. I'm at the Pentagon. I know this isn't supposed to happen, but I'm going over there and I'm going. to go to Libya and I'm going to raise a. guerrilla army.". I'm like you could you could laugh. So, I got my ass over there. My buddy. was running a task force. Link up with him. Intel folks upstairs over the coffee. shop um. I knew cuz I'd been through training. with them. I was like, "Okay, I'm your guy.

Tell me when I infil." They're like, "Okay.". Uh Brit- the Brits ended up, you know, the Brits went in and got rolled up. Uh by I couldn't tell what faction, you. know, there were two there were all. these different factions. The Brits went. in, it's all public record, so it's not. secret. They rolled in you you we were. talking about link up in Afghanistan. They did that, but at a commercial. airfield and the opposition element. said, "Thank you for visiting Tripoli or.

wherever." Clink, clink, you know, your. worst nightmare, right? Getting. compromised on infil. And uh I was like, I don't care. I'm still good. The Secretary of Defense at the time was. Gates. And he said there will be no American. boots on the ground. I thought he meant. everybody but intel officers and special. operators. He meant everybody. Intel got in there eventually. So no, never got to do it um. but was desperate to. But when they got. Gaddafi, I was back at the Pentagon. You.

were? Did you have any any part in that? No. You? You know anybody? No. Hey, so I just remember this old. dude, Vietnam vet. It's like this is. bad. This country. uh Libya is going to come undone. All the weapon stores because Gaddafi. had like. tons of guns and ammo. He said. all the. um terrorist elements are going to come.

up from the south, get all that [ __ ] and. take it back south down to Mali, Niger, uh Nigeria. uh. Burkina Faso. and it's going to be game on. I just. remember listening to that old guy and. I'm like oh yeah, here he goes again. giving a history lesson. Was he right? We opened that can of worms. Dealing with it now, right? Yeah. How did you. get the Secretary of Defense to.

position? I think that Baghdadi operation actually. had something to do with it. President. didn't know me from anybody. I'm a. government employee, remember? I'm I'm. just I work for whatever president. I'm. on loan from the Pentagon. I'm doing counterterrorism for the. president. President didn't know me from anybody. I. told you I had this idea about al-Qaeda. Had a partner that came in with me, Kash. Patel, who had access to the president.

Um. and so I explained what I was doing what. we wanted for al-Qaeda. Kash is the only person that can make. this call is the president because. Secretary of Defense, head of the CIA. head of State Department aren't. interested in this. So we're going to. have to have the president get involved. And I'm like, you talk to him a lot, right? He goes, oh yeah, I talk to him a. lot. I'm like let's partner. Um. the Baghdadi hit.

The next day the president gives a. public announcement. And um. does the you know, the roll out. And. I got to go to it and I got to see how. it works behind the scenes. He goes and. gives a speech. He comes out and he. turns to me. Me. My crappy Joseph A. Bank suit. Remember the one I was. telling you about? Mhm. Five for $200. I'm probably wearing one of those. I. think I just threw it out or donated it. And he turns to me, the president of the.

United States. turns to me and goes, Chris. And I'm. literally like. uh-huh. He goes. I was like, [ __ ]. I go up to the president and he goes. don't let them walk back my comments. I was like. Roger, sir. He goes. said some stuff in there on purpose.

Don't let them walk back my comments. And I was like, okay. And. uh I left and I went back to my office. and I sent a note out to the community, heads of the community. And I said, the. president was very deliberate about what. he was saying today. His target audience. was not the American people. It was. young people thinking about joining. ISIS. That's why it was very bombastic.

The president was like you know, you. will die they you know, you will die if. you join ISIS. Don't even think about. it. Now, I know information operations, psychological operations. I'm I was. Green Beret. I knew exactly what he was. doing, right? It's like his target audience is not you. know. my mom. It's it's the world where kids are. thinking about joining ISIS. I said, we've completed this phase of.

the operation with the death of. Baghdadi. We can transition to a more. steady state you know, I used all the. buzzwords, more steady state. counterterrorism operations. Thank you. for all you have done. If you have any. questions about uh. next this this announcement in the next. stage, feel free to call me. Nobody Normally. you know, in Washington D.C. somebody. like that that was a little I don't I'm. going to go talk to the press and say. that's not exactly what happened.

Nothing leaked. So I think that was the. one where the president goes, this guy, the tall white-haired guy. wearing I had better glasses then, you. know, that guy with the cheap suit. he can get stuff done. And that's where I came to the. president's attention. And then. there was. a guy that had worked on the campaign, a. young young gentleman. who was basically.

an administrative assistant secretary. type. who like you. I work with everybody. I don't care what. your rank, station in life is. If you're. interested, come on along. I met this. guy. His brother was going to school at. the University of Iowa in Iowa City. I said, oh my god. And uh. he. he had worked on the campaign. And I. helped develop him as a uh. counterterrorism person and took him to. meetings that he normally wouldn't get.

to go to. And um having I have to go back to the. Pentagon. I told you I had the worst job. in the history of the Pentagon in. intelligence oversight. I have to go. back to that, Sean. And I'm like. I'm walking across the street between. going into the White House. He's coming. out. He goes, Chris, how are you doing? I said, I am and I I'm I'm cup half full. guy. I was like, I'm in a bad place. He goes, what's going on? He says, I got to go. back to the Pentagon. He goes. do you want a political job?

I was like, what's that? Do you want to. be appointed as a political official? I was like, I'll do anything. Anything. to not have to go back to the Pentagon. He goes, come with me. Now this guy that. everybody kind of was just you know, off. in the corner. Nobody knew what he was. We walk in to the personnel office. He. walks in. looks at one of the senior officials and. goes, hey, get Chris a job. They all. like jump to attention. This 24-year-old.

kid. was a big hit. He's a serious player in. the political side. I didn't know it. And so I got a political job. Um. and I went back to the Pentagon. So I. changed from a government employee, right? To there usually about 3,000 political. appointees that the administration gets. to pick. Okay. And then you go in and. you run the large agencies, in this case. the Department of Defense. There are. probably a couple hundred civilian.

officials. And they rotate out every. time the administration changes. And I got one of those jobs. And started. there. and then um. I got a call that said, hey. would we think you can do more. And I'm. like, I'm good cuz I'm fighting. al-Qaeda, right? I'm good. Pentagon, $18. billion for special operations, 68,000. forces. I'm good. And they offered me to go to take a.

presidentially appointed Senate. confirmed position, which I talked. about, which means you are now you're no. longer just a you're a political. appointee, but you're at the top of the. top shelf. And back to greatest. strength, greatest weakness. Parents always said if you're going to. do something, do the very best you can. You don't do it halfway. So I'm like. well sure I'm interested. I mean, it's the way I was raised. President asked you to serve. So then I. got that job at the National. Counterterrorism Center. I'm out there.

loving life. All good. Don't want anything else. New Anybody who knows any If you're. doing what you're supposed to do, you. always have your reconnaissance network. out. Just keeping track on what's going. on, seeing what attacks are coming in on. you. And the word was out that Esper, who is the Secretary of Defense, was. going to get was president was unhappy. to him after um Lafayette Square, George. Floyd, all that stuff.

um. you know. where the president went out, you know, they cleared Remember that? Where they. cleared the the. um. park. The president went across the. street to that church. I do. I do. Yeah, well um. Esper got a lot of flak for that and. started kind of getting waffly. about his role in that. And that ups. what I understand is that upset the. president. And um. then the other one, which let's talk.

about later, was. war on drugs. Like president was. flipping serious about securing our. border. Everybody thinks it's just about. like immigration. No, it's everything. And you know, the Department of Defense. was not doing enough to stop the illicit. flow of narcotics in the United States. I know this. So the president was upset that he. wasn't getting support from the. Pentagon. And so I'm hearing all this and there.

are only three of us that are eligible. to replace him. Because you have to be presidentially. appointed, Senate confirmed. There're. only three of us that have some military. background that are eligible. I did not. politic. I didn't want the job. And uh. and was you get these calls. you better be ready, something might. happen. I was like, "Oh man, what?" And. you know, just be ready for a phone. call. Ladies and gentlemen, it has been a.

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Nothing happens. Thank god. Election happens. There was some thought that he was going. to clean house that night. That doesn't. happen. I'm like, "Thank god. I'm just. going to stay here at the National. Counterterrorism Center. I love these. people. I love this mission. Al-Qaeda, we're making progress. This is awesome.". And then Monday morning I go into work. It's COVID. Nobody's there. I'm like the.

only one in the office. Get in there early. Beautiful day, man. Drinking my Dunkin' Donuts coffee. Phone rings. Nobody picks it up. Finally, I'm like, "Somebody better get the phone.". Hello. Like. uh Director Miller? Yes. Get to the. White House now. I'm like, "No.". They're like, "Yep.". Uh so, the president made the decision. and selected me. I think it was probably.

because of my my coworker, Kash Patel. So, I'm working counterterrorism at the. White House. Kash is working with me. When I leave, he become he replaces me. So. I'm just guessing. I don't know. I don't. know. But you get the call and you go. over there. And it's in my book, it's a pretty funny. story. I was dressed pretty poorly, and. uh and you get they always ask you get. you know, you they're not going to send.

you in to see the president if you're. going to say no. So, you know, they're. like, "Hey, president's going to offer. you this job. Are you going to take it?". And and. you know, it's so funny, you can watch. The West Wing, you know, that show from. whenever with uh. Martin Sheen or whatever. I serve at the. pleasure of the president, you know, it's like this great show where. everybody just serves, you know. But. that seems to work for for that show, but it actually works for my show, too, because when the president of the United. States asks you to serve, I don't know,

where are you on this? I'm like, "I. don't care what flavor, fashion, or. whatever. The president of the United. States, and they're asking you to serve, you're going to serve." So, obviously I. said. yeah. Knowing it was going to be a. a hell of a hell of a ride, which it. was. Yeah, it sounds like it. What was So, what did that conversation go like when. when you got into the White House? Go in. there. Uh I'm wearing crappy shoes because I. was I had decided that I was going to. turn uh.

the National Counterterrorism Center. into business casual. Like try to change. the. you know, the the culture. So, I'm. wearing crappy shoes. I've got khaki. slacks on. I didn't have a tie. I had to. borrow a tie. Fortunately, I'd thrown a blue blazer. into my car. And all I can think of is the. president's going to. look at my shoes and go, "I've got a. better idea you know, what what's wrong. with you?". Uh. so, I'm hiding I'm trying to hide my. feet. You go in, president's sitting.

behind the Resolute the his desk, right? There's there's a chair in front of him, and I sit down. And I say, you know, "Morning, Mr. President." He goes, "Uh hey, Chris, uh. I'm firing Esper. You're up.". I was like, "Got it, sir.". He said, "Okay, you ready?" I'm like. "Yes, sir, I'm ready.". He said, "Okay, come back this evening, we'll talk more.". That was it. Salute, next acute move out. Went back. that evening and got guidance, which was.

pretty simple. It's like, "Hey, listen. I've been saying we're going to wind. down these wars. Nobody's listening to me. Do it. Of course I believe in that. We talked. about that. I'm like, "Yeah, I got it. I'm with you, sir." He goes, "Okay, go. get it done.". I said, "All right." There was no talk. about like, "Oh, let's overthrow the. government using the military." People. you see this crazy conspiracy [ __ ] It's. like most professional conversation, boss gave guidance. Salute and execute. Totally within the.

boundaries. I'm like, "Got this. Let's. go do it.". And off we went. Did you have time to. come up with a plan on how to wind those. down, or did you have any idea how you. were going to. about it. How were you going to do it? Uh. well. the. I'd looked at Afghanistan. We had 8,500, no, 8,800 there. Cuz it was I was work when I was working. at the White House. in. uh counterterrorism. When I was still government employee,

when I was, you know, on loan from the. Pentagon. You could see that negotiations were. ongoing. It didn't take like It didn't take like. a genius. It didn't take Henry Kissinger. to figure out that this war is coming to. an end. There's going to be a negotiated. settlement. I mean, not the smartest guy. in the world, but I'm like, "Oh yeah, we're going to We're going to get an. agreement.". It's not going to be pretty. Wars aren't. End wars is tough, you know. Nobody's. going to be happy, but we got an. agreement going, so we need to figure. out what Afghanistan will look like with.

our presence post peace agreement. So the Department of Defense. was like, "If we. our minimum force required to protect. the United States from attack. from Afghanistan is 8,800. people.". I was like, "That's bullshit.". Here they go again.

Cuz I'd been through this. circus before. Where they would give a number and. they'd like, "The world will come to an. end if one And then we We drop below, nothing bad would happen." Syria is an. example. "If we go below 1,600. the world will come to an end.". Went to 800 or 800 there now. Nothing. Like What? Mhm. World didn't come to an. end. So check this one out. Uh I commissioned a young government.

employee to do a war game with all of. the key players to determine what the. minimum force structure in Afghanistan. was necessary to do this. Keep intel on Al-Qaeda or uh. or terrorist groups that could pose a. threat to the United States. Have a strike force sufficient to. execute targets when they're identified. Uh and then So they all worked it.

And we used mid-level people because the. senior level people didn't want to. participate because they knew I suspect. they knew that it was [ __ ] right? That 8,800. So they were like, "We're. not doing this.". So I did a bunch of bureaucratic tricks. and forced them to provide subject. matter experts, which is what I really. wanted. I didn't want like political. figures, you know, I didn't want to like. stuff shirt stuff suit talking heads. I. wanted like professionals in there. So.

government works great when you just let. the professionals talk and take politics. out of it. So they all did this big war. game and they came up with we want to. have one. operating base. We need 800 people there. Commandos. We need helicopter pilots. We need cooks. and bottle washers. They did the whole. thing. And we'll have one. counterterrorism base that we can keep. fly predators out of, all that stuff. I.

was like. "Thanks." This is in the You know, someday somebody's going to get those. things FOIA'd de- declassified. Cuz I. still get tons of [ __ ] from like people. like, "That didn't happen. That didn't. happen.". Well, I wasn't stupid. It's in the It's. in the official records of of the White. House. And they're all classified. That's fine. Someday, you know, people. are going to look at it like, "Oh wow, that really did happen." I can't I don't. have anything I Like I can't give you a. briefing chart. Maybe the kid from Mass. Whatever from the Massachusetts.

International Guard has them. That was a. bad joke. That was a bad joke, wasn't it? Yeah. But it was kind of funny. It was good to go. I feel I mean, not. for that kid. You know, the kid who got rolled up. yesterday talking about. Um The kid that just got rolled up for. embarrassing the US government. all the secret slides from. the Pentagon and other places. Yeah. So. maybe he's got the Maybe he has the. official record of this war game that. indicated 800 people was the minimum.

force required. to maintain a counterterrorism presence. and protect America. I then went out and. I talked to the uh. the commander on the ground who I'd. grown up with. And um said, "Hey. um. well. President wanted to go to zero. I knew. the number was 800. When the decision. was made. a bunch of us agreed that 2,500 we would. draw down from 8,800.

to 2,500. And. reason we did that. is. I thought it was It's weird because I. thought that was one of the really good. decisions we made where we gave plenty. of. trade space for the next administration. We're like, "We didn't go to zero. We didn't go to 800, which is minimum. force, cuz we knew that. We actually. went to 2,500." And I talked to the. ground the commander there. I said, "2. 2,500, can you work it?" He goes, "We can do it. We're good. Got it." So.

lo and behold, I actually talked to the. people on the ground. because the echo chamber in DC was all. 8,800 8,800 8,800. So at that point, the president made. this the president had made the decision. go to 2,500. And that's what we left. with in Afghanistan because quite. honestly, and it's in the books right. now, most people don't care about this. I understand that. And you know, it's. all right, but it's still pretty raw, I. think, for a lot of us in our generation.

that did that. Um. you know, I thought. it was like. 2,500 we can maintain pr- uh pressure. and it will give the incoming. administration a chance to recalibrate. if they want to. I I actually thought it. was a a good solid plan. Of course it's. been destroyed like now that we're we we. jammed the Biden administration. Hey, can I give you my final. s- not CYA, but [ __ ].

I'd learned in the military that you can. blame last guy for 30 days. Up to 30 days, you get out of jail free. card. It's all last guy. I would never. have done that. But once you go over 30. days as a commander and as a leader, you. own it, right? Have you ever heard that? I haven't. Yeah, I wonder if I just. heard that wrong. That's why I was. asking. But I always learned that. Like you got. 30 days. So this is why this whole thing. like we got jammed by the Trump. administration. It was a shitty deal.

You had You You had a chance to change. things. I thought we gave enough trade. space in there, maneuver space to do. something. Well, they would have started. killing They would have started fighting. again. Who cares? We We were going to drop the. hammer on them, man. Like our. counterterrorism forces They'd They'd. pulled back on operational tempo to the. point where, you know, you can talk to people. They're like, "This is the most boring deployment I've. ever done." I'm thinking, "Thank God.".

"We only hit one target in 3 months.". You know, you're like, "Okay.". Uh but during that time. uh our counterterrorism forces had built. out like the target list. And everybody was getting lazy. The enemy was getting lazy. And we had on the table like Vietnam war. You know, they did the bombing like when. the. North Viet means attacked in the south. in '73, they did this huge bombing.

offensive, right? Literally bombed them. back to the negotiating table. Clearly it counterinsurgency is. different war, you know, you didn't have. tanks coming down. com- coming down the main supply routes. and the main roads. Uh. but I felt we had the capability if they. decided to start attacking us again, they being the Taliban primarily. That we would have dropped the hammer on. them. And it would have hurt them so. bad. They would have been like, "Hey,

whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.". Take foot off the gas. Like, "Can we. meet for conversations again? Can we. start negotiations?" So I was not I. thought we had meaningful way. to terminate the war in a way that. wouldn't be embarrassing to the United. States and would still allow us to keep. a counterterrorism presence there. That's pretty heavy, man, but. Yeah. it'll all come out in the history. someday. Right now it's just too. political. Everybody's like. Yeah.

It's It's um. I mean, what what were your thoughts. when you saw how it all went down? Uh So. Friday the 13th, fitting, right? Where. were you? Yeah, just at work, just a normal work. day. Got up, was watching the news. Uh knew knew knew Taliban was on the. offensive. I knew that. the technique we used, remember when I. was telling about like call them on the.

walkie-talkie, they were doing it in. reverse this time, right? They were. calling the Afghan security forces and. going you know, Uncle Ahmed, uh. this is cousin or this is your nephew. Stand by, uh you want to surrender? Nope. White flag goes up. I'm your hello, how. do I become a member of the Taliban? Uh. so I I'm like pattern recognition, they're doing it now, they've got the. momentum. It's working well.

Very predictable. You'd hear this. you'd hear this stentorian voices of. like. oh, the. Taliban won't take over the country for. 90 days or something. I'm like this. thing's over, right? I'm like this thing. they've got the momentum, they're. doing exactly what we did but in. reverse. Got up that morning, Friday the 13th, turn on the news, they said uh Taliban. forces are massed on the outskirts of. Kabul. And I flash back, forgot the name.

of the circle at the south of you've. been there, the south of Kabul. That's. on Highway 1, that's like you'd always. use that as a rally point when you were. heading south on the road or when you. were coming back in, you'd always use. that as like a place where you kind of. like. rally and stuff. And I had this vision. of like a line of Hilux. pickup trucks full of Taliban fighters, right? You got the picture? Yeah. You got the picture? I saw them.

lined up there. I could just see it in my mind. I'm like. we got them right where we want them. Cuz what's the one good one thing we do. well as an American military? We can. blow [ __ ] up with air power. And the whole problem with. counterinsurgency is getting the enemy. to mass, right? When you get them to mass, like we're. don't do that because we are going to. bring in. we're going to drop the hammer on you. I was like we got them right where we. want them, we're going to smoke their.

ass. And we're going to we're going to. bounce them back for a couple weeks. They're going to have to refit, rearm, probably retrain. Uh. and then about an hour later. the announcement comes from the Pentagon. that the United States will provide no. additional support to. uh Afghan government. And I was like the. war's lost.

It's That's infuriating. I be I was a mess. Yeah, I'm. I think. a lot of us were. Well, on that note, here we are. Yeah, man. Um. I had a complete meltdown, dude. Yeah. And I'm I'm supposed to be a. well-adjusted veteran, right? Ooh. Yeah. I'm like wow, if I'm feeling this way.

can you imagine. what others are feeling, man? I just. felt horrible. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Too much information, my friend. Well, let's take a break. All right. Next on the Shawn Ryan Show. I've heard you say that the biggest. threat to. the United States right now is the. fentanyl crisis. Mhm. Why do you think that? Over everything. else, over China, over Russia,

over all the other things that we're. facing. First meeting I got to go into. the Oval Office, a Mormon co-. segment had been attacked and a bunch of. people had been killed, Americans had. been killed. One of the drunk cartels. took over a town in the south of Mexico. and just like was. basically took it town over cuz I was. doing transnational threats as well as. counterterrorism. And at the time the president said.

uh 77,000 Americans are being killed. each year due to illicit drugs coming in. from south of the border. Hey everybody, I'm Shawn Ryan. Click. here to subscribe to the Shawn Ryan Show. YouTube channel for the hottest and most. compelling interviews that you will not. see anywhere else. I've also made a. playlist of all the previous SRS. episodes so they're easy to find. You.

can find that. right here.