Baiju Bhatt - Robinhood Co-Founder is Beaming Solar Power from Space | SRS #223

[Music]. Beiju bot, welcome to the show. >> What's up, man? >> Oh, man. I'm excited about this one. Me, too. >> I'm really excited about this one. So, but I want to dive right into this. I'm. sorry I cut you off on that. conversation. We got to have this on the. show. >> But we were you were looking at the bar. over there and asking, you know, if. people drink on the show, and I said, "No, I actually I haven't had a drink in. over three years now. I did the. psychedelics thing." And you had brought.

up that there seems to be like a. movement of the younger generation just. booze doesn't have a place. And I think. I think that's a good thing. But you. brought up a good point. >> Yeah. So as a I I feel like the contrary. take here is that uh alcohol's kind of. gone out of vogue in society, I think, especially with young people. And it's. it's kind of like at the same time that. we see like a precipitous drop in. socializing, romance, all this stuff for the younger.

generation, right? And like I actually. think it's I I was making this point. earlier. I think alcohol is a very. important part of human society. I think. it's a very important social lubricant. And like yeah, my contrarian view on it. is alcohol is actually really important. That's an interesting con. You're the. only one that I've ever heard say that. But it I mean I don't know. I mean, you. know, I'm I'm in my 40s now, so I don't. know how young people are socializing.

Unless I go to downtown Nashville on. Broadway, then I see it. >> There's no shortage of alcohol there. >> But I wonder I mean, how are how are. people socializing that don't drink. nowadays. >> on the internet? >> That's are they not socializing? I don't. know. I mean, I think this is like a. broader thing, right? Is like the era. that we grew up in, went to college, went to high school, all this stuff. There weren't phones around, right? You'd get bored. You'd have to like sit. and think about [ __ ] to entertain.

yourself, right? That that whole thing, like long form thinking, like being. bored. >> Um, yeah. And alcohol was like the. universal social lubricant when I was in. my early 20s, right? >> Yeah, me too. I think it started at like. 13. But but yeah, that's all. >> But what happens if you get rid of it, right? Is like you have a lot of people. that. probably just socialize a lot less. >> I mean, it's got to be replaced with.

something. Unfortunately, you're. probably right. It's probably replaced. with. >> Instagram and X and. >> Yeah, I think it's social media. >> Damn. >> Yeah. I don't think that's I don't think. that's great. I don't think that I don't. think the human brain is wired like. that, right? We're we are social. animals. Like we're we're we're animals, right? We're like we're we're creatures. that take on the human form, but we're. an incredibly social species. And it's. weird if that sort of gets replaced or. like augmented in a way that doesn't.

line up with how our brains work with. with the internet. >> People say the same thing about. cigarettes, too. >> Wait, do they? >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I used to smoke. You never smoked? have smoked. >> Yeah. I mean, you step outside of the. bar and you talk to the other people. that are smoking. Now, I feel like I'm. condoning drug uh cigarettes and. alcohol, which is absurd for this show. >> I mean, like going like living in New. York in my early 20s, right? And if you. go outside and have a cigarette with. somebody like that's.

>> there's a connection. >> You make friends, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um. >> or work or anywhere. >> Yeah. Although I Yeah. that it's just I. think nicotine I think and cigarettes I. think are bad for you like I think makes. it hard to breathe like probably going. to give you cancer someday. >> Well I think I mean you know on the flip. side with the alcohol all the broken. homes I mean drinking with excess. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You know it's it's and I think it's. ended a lot of relationships as well. I. mean, I know in my prior relationships,

you you know, you get to tug on the. bottle a little bit too much and. everything goes off the rails, but but. that's me. I had the benefit of being. Indian. My body just can't really handle. alcohol. >> Yeah. >> Oh [ __ ]. >> One one of the one of the nice things uh. Yeah. Like I I I could never I like I in. college I would like to have thought. that I could drink, but I I don't think. I could really hold my alcohol that. well.

>> We're also talking about studying math. and physics at Stanford, which let me. tell you about that party culture. >> Tell me about it. >> Ah, there's a lot of really late nights. of doing problem sets. Like all nighter. after all nighter of doing problem sets, >> not your typical college experience, huh? >> No. Like living in the physics building. at Stanford, right? or spending all. night in the math library at Stanford. and just like these dimly lit rooms. where you're like smelling the musk of.

an old textbook. That was my college. experience. >> Nice. Nice. Well, we got a lot to talk about today. >> We do, man. >> Ton to talk about. So, let me start you. off with an introduction here. Beju bot, son of immigrants who grew up. in Virginia with a passion for science. sparked by your father's work at NASA's. Langley Research Center. A Stanford. educated physicist and mathematician who. co-founded Robin Hood alongside your.

college roommate Vlad Tennif. This no fee trading app revolutionized. the brokerage industry and shook up Wall. Street, earning you an Apple design. award in 2015 for its user-friendly. design, navigated Robin Hood through. turbulent waters, including the GameStop. trading halt and SEC settlements. Recently, you founded EtherFlux, a bold. new venture aiming to harness solar. energy from space and beam it to Earth.

It's I love that. I I just like we were. I was telling you before, we just had. this guy Steve Quas on and he was. talking about beaming energy to the. earth. >> Yeah. >> And it was so far out there. I'm just. I'm like, is this is this [ __ ] actually. like real? And and now here you are. You're. >> you're legitimately doing it. >> Yeah. >> So, uh husband, father of three boys, and you appreciate craftsmanship, hard. hardware, product design. Your patches, you're passionate about watches and.

cars. What are your favorite cars? >> Oh man. Um, so I got I got a car kind of. recently which I love love this thing. It's a 1992. I like my cars old. First. of all, I like my cars old and stinky. >> Really? >> Oh yeah, absolutely. Um, so I got this. 1992. uh Porsche 911 RS in mint green. >> Nice. >> Hunting for this car for years. I. finally found it. >> Where did you find it? >> I think it was in Germany. Damn, that's.

awesome. >> Yeah, this thing is cool. I like So I. got into. talk a little bit about building [ __ ]. with our hands. So during co um this was. kind of a wild time for me at least and. I think for everybody it was wild but. we're all like stuck at home and here I. am like trying to lead Robin Hood. So, at the time, Vlad and I were co-CEOs of. the company trying to lead this this. enterprise from like my home office,

right? And you're just like in this. little vortex of your own world the. whole time. And I remember thinking to. myself like I I need a creative outlet. Like I'm like I I've I've always been. this way where there's the main thing. that I care about that's kind of like. the the main thing that my energy is. going towards and there's always like a. creative muse or a creative outlet or. something that's completely unrelated to. the work that I'm doing which is like a. passion or a hobby. And I find that. that's usually where a lot of the.

creativity is all about connecting. unrelated ideas together, right? And. seeing the threads that connect things. that maybe you don't necessarily see if. you just look at things very plainly. For me during co I was like, man, I've. been building technology, digital. technology. for years and years, coming on 10 years. at that point and I kind of wanted to. try my hand at building stuff like. actual stuff. So, I'm like, I know how. to build technology, but I don't really. feel like I know how to build mechanical.

material things. So, I was like, all. right. I also love cars cuz I I grew up. in Virginia and I had to drive all. [ __ ] time cuz I was taking classes at. like a community college or I was like. doing some research at this particle. accelerator, which meant I had to just. drive around all the time. So, I loved. cars and I was like, if I I want to get. into classic cars someday and I I. convinced myself that the way that I was. going to do it was start out by building. a car first. >> No kidding. Yeah.

>> What' you build? >> So, you familiar with this company. called Factory 5? >> No. >> All right. Very cool company. They build. kit cars that are like basically. like re reimaginations of like Shelby. race cars. So, they've got the the. Shelby Cobra that they make. Um, and. then the one that I did is the hard top. version of it. So, the Shelby Daytona. So, during COVID, I like had never done. this before. Ordered one of these kits. Um, got. connected to a couple of people that.

sort of were like my automotive mentors. in the early days and kind of taught me. how to do it. But during COVID, in my. nights and weekends and whatever spare. time I had, I go from a box of parts to. like a you know like a thing that turned. on. Awesome. >> Yeah. >> Did you Did you find that difficult? >> Um. >> or it come naturally to you? >> I like difficult things. >> So I did find it to be difficult for. sure, but that was that's kind of like.

that's the right of passage in a lot of. ways, right? Like I remember I found. myself a couple of times cuz it's also. co, right? And so you're not. >> there's not much to do. >> There's not much to do. There's also not. a lot of people that can help you do. [ __ ] So I remember finding myself a. couple of times like it's like, "All. right, it's Saturday. What am I doing. today? I'm going to figure out how to. mount this damn fuel tank onto this. car." And I remember finding myself sort. of on one of those little sliders. underneath the car and like trying to. prop the thing up on my legs and trying.

to screw it in. So you become like a contortionist. trying to build this stuff. >> When was that? >> This is during co. >> How many class of cars do you have now? I. >> had a couple classes. Yeah, >> that's awesome. >> My my thing is I love I love the way. that things work. And I think that that. experience was super interesting because. you know kind of go from like loving. cars to being able to really be like. okay the thing that I really like about.

cars is like the way that mechanical. things. um working in a particular way for. example right like. I think cars sound really good love the. sound of cars but it's like well what. does that mean like what what what part. of the sound do you like Right. Do you. like the exhaust note? Do you like the. induction sound from the engine? Do you. like the gears chattering? Cuz there's like, you know, no sound. deadening in the thing. Yeah. So, like getting a really deep. understanding of all the components and.

being like actually, and this is kind of one of the places. that I've landed now, it it's better to. drive a slow car fast than to drive a. fast car slow. So, I actually kind of. like my cars more underpowered. lightweight, so you got to like really ring them out. to actually keep up with traffic, for. example. >> Nice. I I just got my f I don't know if. I'd call it a classic car, but. >> Yeah. Are you in a car? Tell me. There's. an engine sitting over there. >> Yeah. Well, I'd love to talk about that.

on the air, but I can't. >> But, uh, you know, for reasons, but um. but um now I just got a 1977 Ford F-150. >> Oh, sick. You know, we we we were. talking before we both I was I grew up. in Missouri. You were born there. >> I was. Yeah. >> And uh and that was like. >> they just don't make cars like they used. to, man. No. >> I mean, even it's And yeah, just I. literally just picked it up last week. I.

love the damn thing. I'm putting some. pipes on it cuz I like the exhaust. sound. >> What kind of engine does it have? >> A 351. >> Nice. Yeah, I love old cars. Yeah, cars. today are. uh all right, I'm gonna go on a bit of a. limb here. They're like kind of. perverted in my opinion because I think. of cars as these objects of industrial. design, right? I think of them as these. like these things that humanity invented. for transportation and there's like this. artistic component to them because.

old cars were handmade, right? They were. envisioned by the mind and built with a. hand. And you look at the cars that exist. today. Number one, they're designed by. computers and they look like it in my. opinion. And they're built by robots. and just like the materials and the way. that things fit together. There's. something about it really really don't. like.

What do you think about that's why I say. it's perverted. I'm just cur You know. what I don't like is everything's going. electric. Like didn't Ferrari get rid of. all of the Aren't They're not doing. engines anymore, right? They're doing. it's all electric. I think so. >> And what the Mercedes G Wagon? Those are. getting ready to go all electric. And. those things I love the sound of those. things. >> I used to drive them for work and. >> big burly V8. >> Yeah. Yeah. Love it. But everything's.

going electric and I think the sound of. like these supercars are amazing. I just. I can't envision a Ferrari flying by me. with. >> no sound. >> With no sound. >> Yeah. >> It's weird. >> Huge. >> I feel like it takes from the. experience. >> Oh man. Yeah. That's not good. But. >> I I I find I find the not just the. electrification cuz that that you can. like very quickly point a finger to that.

and be like I don't like the way that. that works, but I think just in general. how computerized cars are. >> Yeah. >> Right. I mean it really takes away from. the experience cuz when I when I'm. sitting behind the wheel of a car, like. I want to be able to know what's going. on with the road surface through the way. the steering wheel is moving in your. hand, right? You want to be able to feel. how much traction the car's got based on. how much you can kind of like feel it. moving through your butt. >> Dude, you drive, don't you? >> I do. Yeah. >> Do you go to the track?

>> Not that much. >> Have you taken driving schools? >> I have. Yeah. >> Which ones? >> I've had some people tutor me on it. before. >> Dude, you have? >> No, actually I've taken the Ferrari. driving school once. >> How was it? >> It was really fast. It was like too. fast. >> Dude, have you Have you This is. >> Have you done Have you done it before? Well, I've done a bunch I've done a. bunch of driving schools for back in the. old days when I was a SEAL and. contracting for CIA. They they put us. through a ton of schools. >> Did they put you through the Ferrari. school? >> No. No. It was more pra it was a lot.

more practical. It's like pitting and. crashing into things and how to get out. of situations and but I took this. course. You've got to do this. Like you. were talking about uh lighter cars, drive them faster. >> Mhm. >> So, there's this course in New. Hampshire. It's called the O'Neal Rally. Racing Course. Have you heard of it? >> Mhm. >> I love rally racing, >> dude. It is [ __ ] awesome. I went. there and I think I went there for like. 2 weeks. This is this is a long time. ago, but you're out in the middle of.

nowhere in New Hampshire. And day one, I. think, is the first phase is frontwheel. drive, then you do rear wheel drive, then you do all-wheel drive, then you do. off-roading, and you got like you start. off in little Ford Festivas. >> and move to Audi's and BMWs for rear. wheel drive, and you're just on these. little trails in the mountains out. there. The trails are like, >> well, you took BMWs on dirt roads, >> dude. It's a It's awesome. You've gota.

you've got to check this out. It's like. the coolest [ __ ] driving school I've. ever taken. >> And uh yeah, like I said, I think it's. about two weeks long. They got all kinds. of different packages. But when my when. my son gets older, that's one of the. first things I want to do with him when. he when he can see over the steering. wheel, get him out there on on that uh. on those trails. And it dude, it it's. awesome. You'll love it. I hope you do. it. >> Yeah. I actually, as you're saying this, I'm thinking about wanting to do that. with my boys. They would love that. Yeah. O'Neal Rally Racing School. That's.

not a plug. It's just. >> awesome. Yeah. >> Also, off-roading is really fun. >> Yeah. I mean, they It's fun. >> The whole You do it all and then you can. go you go there in the winter and do it. in the snow. It's. awesome. The instructors are phenomenal. I I can't wait to do it again. But. >> yeah, I I would actually love to do. that. So, I've done I've done one actual. driving school, which is like the. Ferrari one. Kind of at the opposite end of the.

spectrum. Too fast. Like it makes you. feel like you're going to throw up the. whole time. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I've not. >> off-roading is way more fun. >> This is This is It's a lot of fun, man. And you're moving through like these. trails that are barely wide enough for. the car to get through, >> taking right angle turns at like 50. miles. It's awesome. It is awesome. Were. there any like big old trucks on this. one? >> No, it was I think we used uh Jeep. Cherokees for the off-roading. But like.

I said, this is this is like 10 15 years. ago that I did that course. I haven't. taken a driving course since. But it was. it was the most fun driving course I've. taken. And I've taken a ton of them. >> Yeah. But well, everybody starts off. with a gift here. Oh, amazing. >> Vigilance League gummy bears legal in. all 50 states. >> Can I have some? >> Yeah, man. Dig in.

>> Just candy. There's no funny business. >> Good stuff. I love gummy bears. >> Me, too. But, um, well, I'd love to do a. life story on you. >> Yeah, let's do it. >> So, let's just start at the beginning. and go in chronological order, but. where'd you grow up? So, grew up in Alabama. and then in southern Virginia. and I guess I was grown up by the time I.

got to college. So, my family moves to. the US from India. Uh my dad. had grown up always wanting to study. physics. So, it's like his life goal. He. wanted to study physics. Um, and they're from a little town, I. guess now it's a big town in India. called uh called Babnager in Gujarat. And my dad, my grandfather was one of. the first western trained eye doctors. >> Okay, >> this has got to be in like probably the.

40s and 50s, 60s. It was one of the first western trained. eye doctors. and was like, "My children are going to. go into optometry." So this is like my. dad and his and his brothers. So my dad. had always wanted to study physics, goes. to college to study chemistry, I want to. say he started a PhD in chemistry in. India. Um and then stops doing that and. is an optometrist. He's like a contact. lens doctor in India applying to PhD.

programs in America. cuz he wanted to study physics. And the. the story that my dad tells me is that. he ch he put the word Kumar at the end. of his name which apparently means. you're a bachelor cuz he was like I'm. going to devote my life to science. Um my dad is like a very he's a very. studious man. Um and I love him. But lo and behold my dad I think.

eventually was like all right I'm going. to get married. think he was I I yeah I. think he was maybe like right maybe this. coming to America to study physics thing. isn't going to happen. So he gets. married to my mom and then she's. pregnant with me and then he gets into. University of Huntsville, Alabama to. study physics and my mom originally I. think was not going to come. She's like. she was the youngest of a bunch of. siblings. She really loved her family in. India. And the story that they told me.

is that they go to the embassy in India. and my mom is pregnant with me and. they're like, "Oh, your son, you've got. you're pregnant, right?" And they're. like, "Your son's going to be born in. America." So my mom, much to her. frustration, sorry, this is going back a. little bit further, but I think it's. >> No, this is cool. >> Pretty relevant. >> She comes to America and we grow up. So. when she first lands in America, she's. in Huntsville or sorry, yeah, uh yeah, Huntsville, Alabama. Yeah, that's right. I was studying physics.

and I think they knew like one Indian. family in America that were also doctors. that were in Warrenburg, Missouri, right. around where I grew up. >> Yeah. And so my mom, the story goes, she. goes out to Warrenburg right when she's. about to give birth to me because you. can't afford to go to the hospital for. like a week, right? So she goes there, I'm born, and then she comes back to. Alabama, which is where I grew up.

>> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> That's cool, man. >> It was uh. >> You still tied with both of your. parents? >> Yeah. Yeah, very much so. Did you say. your dad in the 40s or in his 40s? >> No, when when my grandfather. studied. >> Oh, okay. >> Which must have been in the 40s or 50s. in India. >> Okay. I was. >> maybe maybe it was 50s or 60s. No, he's. he was born in the 40s. >> Okay. >> He wasn't in his 40s in the 40s. >> Right. Right on.

Well, what were you into? What were you. into growing up? >> Yeah. So my childhood was. I had a really loving family, but the. circumstances were I think objectively. pretty tough a lot of times. So um so. this is like one of the pretty heavy. duty things that happened in my life at. a pretty young age. My dad's kidneys. failed. pretty much. I think it probably started. around the time he came to the US. Um, and so by the time I was four or five,

my dad had to stop out of his PhD. program to get a job to pay for the. medical bills. So here we are moving to um a little. town called Picosen, Virginia. um next to Langley Air Force Base cuz my. dad got a job at NASA Langley. And I. think one of the big things for him was. he's like, "I have to get a job to pay. for these medical bills." Cuz he started. going on diialysis when I was damn.

>> when I was like 5 years old. So there I. was only child. like not a lot of brown people around. Uh yeah. And actually, interestingly, I. didn't learn English until I was like. maybe four or five. >> No kidding. >> Yeah. I learned Gujarati was my first. language. Um cuz my mom didn't speak English. We. learned English together. I learned. English watching TV. >> Wow.

>> Yeah. Um so that was kind of who I was. as a kid when we got to Virginia. So. what was I into as a kid? Really into. superheroes. I was really into like. cartoons and X-Men and comic books and. stuff like that. Um, I was also really. into science and space and that a lot of. that came from my dad. >> because he worked at NASA. That's cool. >> Like what does your dad do? He's a. scientist at NASA. It was something that. I was always really proud of and I. thought was very cool. And I remember I.

would go to visit my dad at work. sometimes. >> And have you been to Langley Air Force. Base? >> No. >> Yeah. There's these huge wind tunnels, right, that are kind of on the facility. And I remember going there as a kid and. just being sort of aruck by the. machinery of like science and space, right? And like how big it was. And I. remember my dad had this he had like a. desktop computer and he was doing. computer stuff on I think he was using. Linux in like the '9s. So I remember.

distinctly remember going and like my. dad had his computer at his desk. Um. so that was a lot of my childhood. I. mean, I grew up not being a terribly. athletic kid. I was actually quite. overweight as a child. Um, >> you were overweight? >> Big time. >> No kidding. >> Yeah. Um, I ended up losing a ton of. weight when I got a little bit older. Um, like I lost like nearly a third of. my body weight in high school. >> Wow.

>> Yeah. From exercising. >> Just Oh, okay. >> And so that that was kind of my. childhood, right? We were not terribly. wellto-do. We lived in like a small. apartment. My dad was a scientist at. NASA. He was on diialysis. Um I was I was a. little kid, you know, I was like a. little little boy. And. the interesting the point at which my. life fundamentally changed was when I. was in 8th grade actually and my dad had.

been on diialysis this whole time and. was waiting to get a kidney transplant. like waiting year in year out. I. remember he had this little beeper that. he would carry around with him just. like, "Oh, did the beeper go off?" Cuz. if the beeper went off, it meant that. one of the hospitals called cuz they had. a kidney transplant for him and you got. to like pack up and go. And um when I was in 8th grade, my dad's. kidney disease kind of took a turn for. the worse. So, he was on diialysis and.

he got this infection. and I don't think they really understood. what was happening at the time, but he. got very very sick from the catheter. that that was in his stomach basically. for him to be able to do diialysis. And my dad goes from being. sick to being very sick to being. hospitalized. to my mom being like.

every day waking up in the morning and. going and staying with my dad at the. hospital all day. And I was just kind of. like home alone. just [ __ ] confused. Damn. Being like. what what do I what do I do, right? like. where where does life go from here? Feels completely rudderless. Didn't have. any siblings, right? I was not cool at. all. I was like fat brown kid in school.

Like there wasn't a lot of I had a. couple of friends. Um actually one good. friend from that period that's still a. friend of mine. Uh but I just remember feeling so. unbelievably lost. And then my dad's. health continues to take a turn for the. worse. and he has a couple of really. major surgeries where. you know at this at at 13 or whatever it. was I remember staring down the spectre. of what happens if my dad passes away by.

the way my dad is healthy and alive. today so probably worth worth saying. that I'm like what happens right I want. to go back to India I've never lived. there my parents couldn't even afford to. go back to India um the last by the way. the last time I went back to India was. in 1997. 97 maybe 98. It was. >> Did you go back? Did you Is that like. the only time you went back to India or. >> did you go back and forth a couple. times? >> Probably when I was a little kid. I went. like two or three times. But.

>> you don't remember it, big memories of. it. But I I'm I'm an American, right? Like. >> um through and through. >> So that that that's happening. And I'm. like, well, what do I do, right? I don't. feel like I can control anything in my. life. But growing up in my household, it. was like this. This is this theme will. come back a little bit later on, right? Is like you have to make the most of the. opportunities in life. >> And America is the land of opportunity.

And my dad did beat one thing into my. head, which is education, education, education. Like that's your way out. So, I go from not being a terribly good. student to being like, I'm gonna get. really good at math. I'm gonna get. really good at physics because. no matter what, like that's like that'll. give me some purpose in life. >> And if I'm doing really well in school, that that'll be kind of like the thing. that pulls me forward.

Um, lo and behold, a few months later, my dad, his kidney, that like kidney. disease that he had that had him. hospitalized, which I'm talking about it. kind of vaguely because I don't think. they really know what happened other. than the fact that he had a really bad. infection. >> Mhm. >> He starts to get better and they're. like, "Give this man a kidney. transplant." Like, he's been on death. store. Um, and so he gets a kidney. transplant. By the time that happens, which is I think the summer between 8th.

and 9th grade for me, I was like a full-on man at that point. cuz I'm like, I have to do well in. school, like that's my mission in life. And if I do really well in school, that's going to be how I like carve my. own path out cuz I didn't want to feel. rudderless anymore. I wanted some degree. of agency, some control. over my life. And so I go from being not. a very good student to being just locked.

in. >> Wow. >> And just at that point like figured out. that. I loved physics. I loved math. I'd kind. of been given this. gift of being introduced to this as a. kid by my dad, right? And this one of. the interesting things growing up, right, is like doing well in school or. studying math and stuff like this. this. was not cool when we were kids, right? Like you're kind of a loser if you did. stuff like this. Um, which I think is. not a good thing. Like I don't I don't.

think that's. >> that's a weird and bad thing for society. to reinforce. Like we want our young. people to cherish education cuz. otherwise they're not going to know what. the [ __ ] they're talking about. >> Mhm. >> Right. Like that's what that era of life. is about is about learning stuff so that. you have. a better lens to look at like this weird. thing called adulthood and life through. uh. so. what was your dad studying at NASA? What.

was what was he working on? >> He was doing atmospheric sciences. >> What is that? I. >> think he was doing like satellite. imaging. >> No kidding. >> Is that [ __ ] wild? >> Yeah. >> You can't make this stuff up. that goes. around full circle. >> Does I mean, do you guys talk a lot. about what you're doing now? >> We do. Yeah. He's uh my dad's a little. bit older now. Um and he really wants to. be involved. Uh but honestly, at this. stage, it's nice just to have something.

cool to talk to my dad about with. Um. >> yeah, so they come over and hang out. with the kids pretty often. >> They live next to you or close to you or. >> They live pretty close by. Yeah, that's. cool, man. That's cool. I wish my. parents lived closer. >> Where do your parents live? >> They're in Florida. >> That's right. >> Yeah, they're in Florida. I moved to. Florida and then the whole family moved. to Florida and then I left Florida. >> So, yeah. Wanted to. >> Yeah. Like, like I told you downstairs, I wanted to raise my kids in a different.

environment than South Florida. It's. just a little too wild down there. >> Yeah. At which point I made the argument. that the best place to raise kids is. Silicon Valley. which which I I don't I don't actually. think that's true. >> With my busy schedule, I really need to. take care of my wellness by getting a. good night's sleep. For years now, I've. had my Helix mattress that they've sent. me to try, and it's really helped me. sleep through the night and feel. energized the next morning. I sleep.

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Check them out for yourself at roka.com. and use code SRS for 20% off sitewide at. checkout. That's roa.com. So, where do we go from where do we go. from school? >> Yeah. So, second half of college or second half of. high school was very fun. felt like my. brain woke up and I could just learn. stuff and I loved physics and I loved. math. So, I just went I went wholehog.

Like that's what I was like that's what. I'm going to do. I'm going to try to get. into Stanford or MIT or Caltech or. Harvard or one of these like really good. schools. Um, and so I just like buried my nose in the. textbook and I started actually working. for I want to say like a year or two in. the nights and weekends and during the. summers at this place called Jefferson. Lab, which is a particle accelerator in.

southern Virginia. So I was deep into. physics. >> A particle accelerator. What is that? >> That's where you take high energy. particles and you collide them to study. the quantum mechanical effects. This is. like CERN. >> Yeah. >> Are you familiar with CERN? I am. What. are they doing there? >> Uh they're studying quantum field. theory, right? So. quantum field theory is a fascinating. subject by the way. Should we talk about this? >> Yeah, let's do it. >> All right. So, do you know about quantum.

mechanics? >> No. >> All right. So Einstein with his big old brain. figured a lot of this stuff out and. actually didn't believe in a lot of it. when he was alive, which is weird. Um, famously said, "God doesn't uh play dice. or roll dice." And quantum mechanics is. this theory of the universe which is. fundamentally. probabilistic, right? It's about. probabilities. Mhm. >> So the general idea of quantum mechanics. is that you have um see if I can do a.

decent job of explaining this is that. things in nature have this particle. behavior sometimes sometimes they have. this wave behavior and quantum states. are when. I think it's actually easier to talk. about quantum mechanics a little bit. more specifically like in the context of. electromagnetism. >> Okay, >> and light. That's kind of where I'm. trying to get to. is there's this idea. of and this actually relates to the name.

of the company Aether by the way there's. this idea of whether light is a wave or. it's a particle. and. different people through history have. had different opinions on whether it's. one or the other. and um. there was this there's this idea well if. particle if if light is a wave then. waves have some medium through which. they propagate, right? And we knew that. light has a lot of wavelike.

characteristics. It's got wavelength. and in turn it's got a frequency. Um, and you can kind of think about light in. that way. One of the things that. Einstein figured out, um, and a lot of. the people that worked on quantum. mechanics at the turn of the last. century was that it also has this. particle behavior. And if you want to. understand like how these these two in. congruent descriptions can fit together, quantum mechanics is kind of the.

machinery behind it. Um but quantum. field theory is taking the machinery of. quantum mechanics and trying to like. explain more physical phenomenon with. it. So let's see if I can let's see if I. can do a a paraphrasing of this or a. good explanation of this. So quantum. field theory basically says that um. there there's different kinds of for. each of the fundamental forces that. exist in the universe right there's.

different particles that carry the sort. of interaction between things that are. happening and then there's the particles. that actually carry the quantities right. so if you have in the context of. electromagnetic interaction you have. charged particles like electrons and. protons and then you have ways in which. charge particles sort of communicate. with each other which is with light, right? >> Mhm. >> So quantum field theory is kind of like. the generalization of that framework to.

how quirks and neutrinos work to how. other kinds of fundamental particles. that are predicted. might exist or not exist. So one of them. more recently is this thing called the. Higs Bzon. Um have you heard of this. before? >> No. see if I can explain this without. going into too much of a rabbit hole, but it's this thing in quantum field. theory. It's a particle that was. predicted to exist a long time ago when. quantum field theory was first invented.

um as the particle that would give. things mass. And there was a a field. that if you if different particles. interacted with it would give particles. the phenomenon of mass. And there was this fundamental I'm kind. of trying to give a short version of. this. There's a there was a prediction. that there would be this particle called. the Higs Bzon which was central to this. thing, but it was really really. difficult to observe. Um, one of the stories that I've heard.

they've it's been called the God. particle over time. >> because I think originally it was called. the godamn particle because it was so. goddamn hard to observe. But at some. point they I think they they felt that. that was not uh that didn't speak to the. sensibilities of scientific publications. in I don't know the 50s or something. like that. So they just called it the. god particle. But um creating these. experiments that create collisions that. create these esoteric states of matter.

where you might be able to observe a hig. bzon. This is the kind of stuff that. CERN does. >> Okay. So they're probing. this theory called quantum field theory. to see all the weird predictions and see. if you can create those in the real. world. >> There's a very broad explanation. >> I mean there's so there's just a lot. there's a lot of theories out there that. they're trying to create black mini. black holes and all this other stuff. >> Yeah, that's pretty catchy. I don't I. don't know if that's going to happen. >> Not buying it. Huh? >> I'm not I'm not buying that. I mean, I.

think if if something like that were to. happen, it would probably evaporate in a. very short amount of time. >> It's I mean, is this have to do. I watch this stuff. I don't understand. half of it. And so, I'm going to butcher. this cuz I watched this a couple years. ago, but I remember watching this uh. thing on YouTube and it was talking. about Mox Plunk. is this. And I think. what they were talking about, there was. a couple different things, but they were. talking about how different particles. will act differently.

if they're being observed, >> there's consciousness around it. >> Yeah. >> And and even when they set a camera up, if somebody's watching the camera, then. the particles will still act differently. than if they're not being physically. observed. Do you know about this? >> I do. Yeah. >> What is that? >> Yeah. It's this thing called the. uncertainty principle. Um, and this is something that comes. from quantum mechanics. And see if I can. remember this correctly, but there's. basically the amount of.

uh the amount of precision. that you can theoretically have when. observing a system. Right? So, if I. remember this correctly, it's that. there's two there's a few different. statements of this uncertainty. principle. And to any of the listeners. out there that are actual physicists, if. I get something wrong here, I'm sorry. Uh but there there's this basic idea. that if you if you think about the.

measurement uncertainty of a physical. system that the the time uncertainty and. the energy uncertainty and you multiply. those two together that that uncertainty. is not you're not going to be able to be. more certain about those two things than. a fixed amount. So if you get more. precise with the exact time something is. happening, then the exact energy becomes. more variable. and vice versa. And so I kind of think.

about it as this lower bound for how. accurately you can actually see or. observe anything in the physical world. because if you get more precise on the. time measurement, the energy becomes. uncertain. If you get more precise on. the energy measurement, the exact time. becomes uncertain. And there's other. formulations of this uncertainty. principle, but it basically is like a. lower bound on how precise. the description of the universe can be.

>> Did you I think I read somewhere maybe. somebody said it on the show recently. I. can't remember. But back to light. I either read or somebody said it on the. show that we just froze light. >> Yeah, I've I've heard about that, too. I. don't really know what that means. >> I don't know what that means either. >> Yeah, I don't really know what that. means. >> So, is light a particle or a wave? Cuz I. watched I seen I saw some other things. It was It was talking about when you. shoot a beam into like a slit,

the has both behaviors. >> Yeah. Yeah. Light is both a wave and a. particle. This is the wild thing. It. exists. It ex It exhibits this thing. called wave particle duality. And this is actually one of the things. that Einstein figured out. So a related. to this but. a little bit of a tangent is the idea of. like what is the speed of light? Cuz.

this is one of the things that people. were studying. um in the late 1800s. to kind of try to understand what is the. phenomenon of light. And the idea at the. time, the prevailing theory is that. light's a wave. And so if light is a. wave, waves have mediums that they. travel through, right? So if you have. we're talking to each other, these are. sound waves. They're traveling from. little vibrations in my throat. They're. vibrating the air and you're hearing.

them in your ear and vice versa, right? So the medium that the sound wave is. traveling through is the air. Similarly, if you have. the surface of water and you drop a. stone in it, right? >> You're going to create a little wave. that's going to travel on the surface of. the water. >> So, if light is a wave, what's the medium? Like, what is the. what is the thing that light is. oscillating. that's behind this? Um, so they famously.

called it the aether. So there's this there is this medium. that was postulated to exist called the. aether that light would travel through. that would give it this wave phenomenon. And there were a bunch of experiments. done to to sort of characterize the. speed of light and in turn to. characterize whatever this medium is. that it's traveling through. Um which. just led to a bunch of head scratching.

So one of the famous one of the famous. scientific uh experiments during this. time is called the Michaelelsson morally. experiment where people tried to measure. the speed of light. And again this this. is kind of the paraphrasing of it is if. you have a light source. and you pass it through basically and. you split it in half and you have half. of it go this direction, half of it go. that direction. you have two mirrors. that are the same distance and you.

bounce light back, then presumably you. would be able to see light traveling at. a slightly faster speed in one direction. or the other because. the Earth is rotating, right? The Earth. is moving and in turn the surface on. which the light is being transported is. moving. So if the Earth is rotating this. way and you're firing the light that. way, then you would expect to see the. speed of light to be a little faster in. that direction versus in this direction,

right? So they do this experiment, they. find it to be the exact same. They're. like, what the hell's going on here? So. there's a bunch of sort of thinking that. was done around the time to try to. characterize whether there was something. about or misunderstanding of the aether. Maybe it was like a really thick viscous. thing where it sort of smoothed out on. the surface of the earth and that's the. reason why light was behaving in this. weird way through it. There are all. these like ideas that people are coming. up with.

And then Einstein comes along and he's. basically like no actually. it is the same in every direction. because the speed of light is constant. in every reference frame whether it's. moving or stationary. And the thing is. it's the speed of light that's the. constant and time and space like. literally contract and expand to be able. to keep that a constant. So this was. kind of the beginning of.

>> what does that mean? Time and space can. contract and expand. >> Yeah. This is the theory of special. relativity. This is like what put. Einstein on the map. And if you go. through and you actually just work out. the equations for what happens, let's see if I can explain this um. in a simple real world example. So here's a real world example that you. you'll see. So if you have a clock on a.

satellite, because of this relativistic effect, because the satellite is moving really. quickly in the reference frame of the. satellite, you'll actually see the clock. ticking at a slightly different pace. than you'll see it on the surface of the. Earth. So you actually have to do some. computation in the limit to be able to. figure out that difference. Um, see if I can do a better job of. explaining how this actually works. It's.

a pretty it's a pretty esoteric one, but um. yeah, let me see if I can think of a. good example of how to explain length. time dilation and and length contraction. or Yeah. Um. maybe we come back to this one. I'm not. sure if I've got a great simple. explanation. >> Let me ask you about quantum. entanglement. It sounds like it's going to. revolutionize communications, especially. uh crypto.

>> And so you it's my understanding that. you take a particle, you split it in. half, put one over here, you could put. the other one in another room in another. country, infinite infinite distance. away. And if you put a vibration on this. half, then the other half will mimic. that exact same vibration no matter what. the distance is. Am I correct? >> Yep. Can anybody explain why that is. happening? >> This actually has to do with um this.

actually has to do with what we were. talking about a couple of minutes ago. around uncertainty, right? So, what ends. up happening is you have. two particles. that share that you know together are in. a certain quantum state. And if for. example if this one is up and. so it might be the case that if you have. these two things you know that together.

on average like half of the time this. one's up half the time this one's down. and so on average it's flat. Just make a. simple analogy here. Right? But you. don't know at any point in time whether. this one's up. So there's two particles. in your system and you know on average. one of them is up and one of them is. down. It could be like this. It could be. like this or it could be like this as. it's changing states between the two. But you know that together these two. things are entangled. and that always on average they're going.

to be one is going to be up and one is. going to be down. Now this kind of comes. back to that uncertainty thing that we. were talking about, right? So, if you. can keep these things truly entangled. with one of them and physically separate. them. and you take this one and you look at it. and you're like, "Oh, it's up." That's. going to force the other one into the. down state. because you know these things are. entangled and you know on average you. know the quantum state together shares. like it's flat meaning if one of them is.

up the other one's down. >> Then just by looking at one of them you. force the other one into the opposite. state. So this is how you would be able. to encode something at a long distance. like this. >> Man, how. >> does that make sense? >> It does make sense. I just I I can't I. mean maybe nobody can. I don't know. But. how are they communicating? How are they. still entangled? >> Yeah. >> Is it just is it is it everything is. connected? >> This is the true mis one of the true.

mysteries of the universe. >> Does it does it mean there's multiverse? I don't know about that, man. I I don't. know if I I don't know if I I don't know. if there's enough evidence to suggest. that there's a multiverse. I think it's. a theoretical possibility, >> but there's a lot of theoretical. possibilities out there. >> Do you think about this stuff a lot? >> I do. I do actually. Yeah, I have a lot. in the past. I'm not sure I think about. it that much today. That's why I'm kind. of like, let me see if I can explain. this and try to like reach back about a.

decade in my knowledge and see if I see. if I can come up with an example that. that kind of makes sense. No, I I do. think about it a decent bit. I think. there's um. this is the thing about quantum. mechanics and one of the things that I. love about quantum mechanics is that. it's very very unintuitive, right? There's when you think about. physics and having been trained as a. physicist, it's all about intuition for how the. physical world works, right? And it's.

kind of like you study equations enough. and then you form a sort of literally. that an intuitive understanding of how. it might work in different contexts. Cuz. a lot of physics is like you're trying. to imagine how something could happen. You've got a problem on a piece of paper. and you're trying to paint a picture of. it in your head. Quantum mechanics makes that really hard. because it's fundamentally very very. unintuitive. So it when you think about like what's a.

physical analog to how this might work. in the real world a lot of times with. with quantum mechanics you're like kind. of drawing a blank cuz you're like. things don't really work like that in. the normal world but you know that if. you zoom in close enough they have all. these weird phenomenons to them. I think a related question is is um. like is there a higher power? Is there a higher being? I don't know.

>> I fundamentally don't know. I'm curious. I've gone back and forth on it. The. place I've landed is is that I'm not. sure that it's a question that we as. humans can really answer. >> That's how your parents do. What do your. parents believe? >> My mom is religious. My dad is not. My dad is a very spiritual person, but. he's not a religious person. And he told. me that from a pretty early age. He's. like, I'm not going to tell you.

to believe in God or not to believe in. God. It's kind of up to you. My my dad. kind of raised me in that way. It's like. the big questions you can ask me what I. think, but I'm not going to tell you. what to think. It's kind of on you to. figure out. >> It's good. >> You do. I believe there's a higher. power. >> Yeah, >> absolutely. >> Tell me about it. Well, you know, I I grew up Catholic and. uh but I didn't really take it serious. I never took it seriously and um but it,

you know, I was raised in that. Went to. church every Sunday. Then I joined the. SEAL teams and. just lost it like. didn't believe in anything. couldn't. couldn't explain why people were dying. and why why why out of you know a. platoon of us I mean there. SEAL teams are a [ __ ] up place for a. young adult there's a lot of. it's just it's not a great environment a.

lot of drinking a lot of infidelity a. lot of fighting and then you know. there's the whole war thing and you know. I would see. If you had somebody that didn't cheat on. their wife and that was sober, it it was. it was almost like some type of a. phenomenon within the SEAL teams. And. time and time again, I would see, you know, there would be a bunch of us. and I loved all the guys that I was. with, but like I said, 99%.

of us were I wasn't married at the time, but it's cheating on your wife. It's. getting in bar fights. It's it's just. it's it's it's a different life. And I would see the guys that get killed. in action. And a lot of times it would. be the guy that's not out with the. platoon, drinking, bar fighting, womanizing. It would be the guy that's that's a. really good dad that is a really good. husband that that somehow has figured.

out the balance between war and family. life. And it was just time and time again. Those were the guys that were getting. killed. And it made it it it made me. feel guilty and and it actually like. took a lot of faith from me in in God. And it was like this just this makes no. sense. Why would you [ __ ] take the. guy that. >> that guy. >> that has kids that is there for his. kids, who is a good dad and is a good. role model and a good husband and not.

just for his kids but for society as a. whole. And then you got. a guy like me who considered myself a. piece of [ __ ] who's womanizing, you know. what I mean? And it's like it it made me. feel guilty and it did it didn't make. any damn sense. Kind of like quantum. mechanics. And um. >> and so and then, you know, and that was. very early on in my career. And then and. then and then I I kept moving and and I. just, you know, I never really thought. about it. And then uh I recently it was.

after my psychedelics I did psychedelics. and I did this thing called 5 MOD DMT2. after I did the IBA game which is a it's. a death experience. You you legitimately. like there's no question in your mind. you are you're you're dying. You're. going to die. And so it's it's and I think what it. does is it it is it's a penal gland. dump. Like what does that do to your. perspective? It changes everything.

because when you do it, so basically, you know, and I'll speed. this up a little bit, but you smoke this. and then you feel like you're dying and. it gets stronger and stronger. It's it. kind of feels like an eternity, but it. really only lasts maybe 15, 30 seconds. and maybe even less than that. But you. start sorting through everything in your. life and it it's it like light speed and.

you start to separate from m the. materialistic world and and I mean. everything. and you don't have time to process. what's going on but you you start to. separate from. you might be thinking about a friend and. you you you make that separation and for. me it was it was getting rid of. materialistic stuff friends, you know, family d and then you go and and and and. it's all the things that you're holding. on to that you value in in in the world.

that we live in, right? >> Yeah. >> And then the last things for me was uh. when I did this, I I only had my son and. my wife and those were the last things. that I was grasping on to and it was. like a fight. It was like, I cannot die. because if I die, I'm leaving my, you. know, less than one-year-old son at the time. behind in this [ __ ] up world. And my. wife, you know, who is a stay-at-home. mom. And then and then you separate from.

that. And when you separate from the. last thing, you cross over into like. this other realm. And a lot of people. >> you actually thought you were going to. die when you did this. >> Yeah. There's no there is there's zero. question in your brain that you are. departing life. It's it's over and and. you don't know where you're going and. it's and it's happening and you cannot. stop it. And um and so after after you.

go through that like that like I said it. feels like an eternity but it's it's. it's only a matter of seconds and then. when you. when you make that separ that final. separation then you cross over into this. other realm and they call it they also. it's also called the god molecule and. it's called the u the bliss drug or. something like that and you cross over.

and you know you. sounds kind of hippie-ish but you know. when I was growing up the hippies and. they're all talking about everything's. energy and all this other [ __ ] and I'm. like okay whatever well you feel that. when you cross over and I I did not I. wanted to do it I wanted to see I just. wanted to see earth and nature when I. did it so I didn't put the blindfold on. and so when I when I made that separ. operation. I crossed over. I opened my.

eyes and like sat up. And this is off um. just south of it was in u I think it's. actually in Rosarita um. Mexico. So you're on the beach. and I open my eyes and I I could just I. did not see anything that wasn't there. It wasn't like Grateful Dead. psychedelics, you know, pink elephants. and rainbows and all this [ __ ]. Everything that I saw was actually. there, but it was like this intuition.

was injected into me. And I could feel. the flow of energy. And so I could see. it like coming from the ocean into the. beach, into the grass, up the trees, the. birds. I mean, everything just was in. perfect harmony. And that blast for about 15 minutes. And. a lot of people um a lot of people say. they can feel uh friends or relatives. that have passed and and they're in this.

other realm or some some people see. them. I felt the presence of my best. friend who we were talking about Gabe up. there. Uh those. >> best friend. >> Yeah. I could I could feel his presence. and it made you it made me realize that. everything that has happened and that. will happen in the world and in my life. is exactly the way it's supposed to be. No matter. how it happened or how I experienced it. And so when I came out of that, it made.

me realize that the there's there's. definitely something more to this than. any of us have put together. >> Yeah. And so then I started looking into. that's actually when I started watching. all these quantum mechanics videos and. stuff like that because I I wanted to. understand what that was and I was. really into energy. I was like what what. is it? >> What is it? >> Why are we here? What's driving all. this? And so it sent me down this path and and.

I started watching all these things and. that's when I was looking at the big. bang and the multiverse and all these. other things. Fast forward a couple of years and uh. we're we're in Sedona and I had had this. um I I wasn't happy with the way the. world was going and uh this is what I. guess this is probably about two years. ago. So you a lot of things that were. going on in the country just really. tugged on my heart and and I was I was.

enraged about a lot of things like. probably a lot of the stuff that that. you see in uh in Silicon Valley. But um. but I it just really bothered me like. the gender stuff with children is just. something that always I I couldn't stand. it. I couldn't stand reading about it, hearing about it. I I share that feeling. with you. >> And uh. >> especially as a father of young. children, you're like this is not it's. not appropriate for your kids. >> Yeah. And um that stuff was really.

bothering me. And then uh I dive deep. into China. I talk about it all the. time. It's it's um and and a lot of the. stuff that was going on over there and. how they're pulling ahead and the spy. balloon and all the it was around this. time frame. And um I went to Sedona because I had. read there's all these energy fields in. Sedona and I was like maybe I'll feel. something. I don't know man. We'll see. We'll go on some hikes, go to some of. these energy vortexes. I want to see if. I feel anything. I didn't feel anything.

And um in the last day there, it was a. really rough trip of mine, too. My a. really good friend of mine had just. died. I've done some heavy interviews uh. with with u my really good friend Brian. Montgomery who who's dove into the. he's fighting sex trafficking and kids. and and sex exploitation and and uh had. another interview with this kid uh Tyler. Andrew Vargas not a kid he's a man and.

um sorry Tyler but uh he was the only. one that survived the Abigate bombing. during the Afghan withdrawal I watched. had him come in here nobody would gave. him a platform to talk about his story. Comes in here, one leg, one arm, hobbles. up these stairs to do this interview. No. media would touch it. It was disgusting. how the last administration handled the. withdraw. Not only the withdraw, but him. personally tried to testified in front. of Congress.

Rough story, right? And so I got all. this weight and I'm supposed to be on. vacation with my wife and and. like I broke down on the plane like and. I'm not a guy that breaks down but broke. down. >> cannot imagine that. >> in tears and she's like what like what. the hell is wrong with you? And um it. and I was just angry the whole trip. very last day. I I'd stayed off social media the whole.

trip. It's the last day. I'm like, "Well, let's see what's going on." And, you know, I have to be on there for my. business. I look, I see something that. really pisses me off. And I'm like, "We. got to go on a hike." So, we go on a. hike, go up to this energy vortex, don't. feel [ __ ] And on the way back down, I. had had this uh like internal battle. going on in my head that's that's like I. felt like nobody else cared and I felt. like I was the only one talking about. this stuff and and I was trying to.

basically convince myself like Sean why. why do you let this [ __ ] affect you so. much. >> like this isn't like just give in. Maybe. you're the [ __ ] up one. Maybe kids. should be able to change their gender at. 6 years old. And. quit quit letting this stuff bother you. Like it's it's painfully obvious that. the majority and this is all in my head, right? But the majority of the. population is for this and and it seems.

like America wants this to happen. Everywhere I look, they're talking about. this and they're complaining about the. the the party that doesn't want it to. happen. and and and so I anyways it's. just something that really weighed on me. and I I felt like I was like. surrendering my soul to the devil or. something and we walked through we we we. walked back in to the gate and uh we're. in the in this uh they had an armed. guard at the gate and and I pay.

attention to security just because of my. background and a lot of the a lot of the. security guards there knew who I was. because of the podcast and they would. always come up and say hi and want to. chat and and I'd been there for a whole. week and I walk by and there's this old. guy who I'd never seen there before ever. and he he stops me and he wants to talk. and I'm I just told you the state of. mind I'm in. I'm not in the mood. I'm. like looking at him over my shoulder.

telling him, "Hey, I don't I don't want. to talk right now. I'm not in the mood. I just want to go to my [ __ ] bungalow. and call tonight.". And so he snags my wife and she's with. me and he starts talking to her and I'm. like. >> great. >> turn around and I look at him and I. square up, you know, and and he looks at. me right in the eyes and he [ __ ] read. my mind from front to back and like. every thought that I was having on that. hike,

never met this guy, never seen him. Like. I said, I'd been there for a week. I. thought I had met everybody. >> And he goes, he's like, "Hey, all this. all this gender stuff that you're. worried about, that's not your fight.". And he don't need to worry about that. And all this stuff that you're worried. about with China, that's not your fight. either. And I'm like, after he said. that, >> you're like, >> I it freaked me out cuz I'm like this. >> So this guy just said this. >> This guy's in my head. He's in my.

[ __ ] head. And he went on. No, I. turned I didn't say a word. I just. turned and looked at him like, "All. right, I guess we're going to have a. conversation, you know, like kind of. being a dick." And and that's what he. that's what he opened up his. conversation with was reading my [ __ ]. mind. >> Who was this person. >> exactly? Who was this person? So, so I go, so my mind blanks out after he said the.

China thing, you know, it's like talking. about gender stuff, talking about China, and I'm like. >> freaked out. Never seen this man before. in my life. >> And he's in my head reading my mind. And so that ends and I um I look at my. wife. We're walking back to which is. like a two-minute walk back to our. bungalow. And I'm like, I think God just [ __ ] talked to me.

And uh and my wife goes, "Yeah, Sean.". She's like, "God's always talking to. you. You just don't make room for him. You don't realize it." We go into my. into my. bungalow. and we were just talking about Gabe and. I I could go on for an hour about this, but Gabe has always been around like. I just feel his presence a lot and I. know he's around because little rabbit.

hole. Right before Gabe died, he had started. this he he was he wanted to start this. Wounded Warriors hockey league. And he. told me he was gonna have the the. Florida Panthers sponsor it. >> Mhm. >> And I also told you Gabe was a heroin. addict at the time. And I'm like, >> how are you going to do. >> better clean it up if you're going to. pull that one off, buddy? Cuz you look. like [ __ ] Well, I'll be damned. He gets. it done. And the [ __ ] Panthers. sponsored his Wounded Warrior team. In. fact, when they went to deliver him the.

good news and to knock on the door to. tell him they were going to sponsor his. team, the NHL was going to sponsor the. first ever Wounded Warriors hockey team. When they knocked on the door to tell. him, that's when they found him dead uh. from a heroin overdose. Fast fast. forward, Panthers won the Stanley Cup. for the first time ever. >> What's that? >> What year was this? This was. this was. it was about two years ago, so probably. 23.

>> Okay. >> Um, so I got. >> Sorry, for some reason I thought your. friend passed away years prior. Sorry, I'm just putting two and two together in. my head. Yeah. >> Well, he passed away before this. This. is this is a while when the Panthers won. and this event that I'm about to tell. you happened is about two years ago. So, the team gave me uh one of the. original jerseys and it has Gab's name. on it. Sil Team 10 uh logo and and. Panthers win the the uh Stanley Cup and.

that jersey is hanging down there in the. front doorway. And I come in and the day the Panthers. won the Stanley Cup, that frame has been. sitting there for three years. Hasn't. moved. Falls off the wall. probably. weighs about 354 pounds. Not a scratch. on it. No broken glass, nothing. >> I mean, that's So, anyways, I'm telling. you, Gab's always around. >> Excited. >> And there's a bunch of there's a bunch. of other things that I could talk to you. about on on how he's been around. In.

fact, when we went to there, I told you. I was in this vulnerable state and we. saw this guy that looked exactly like my. friend Gabe. Like, same build, same brow. line, same jawline. Like if you if you. put them side by side, they would be. identical twins. But I could tell, you. know, obviously that wasn't gay. But I. was like, that's like it's legitimately. like an identical twin with some minute. differences. And throughout the trip, this guy's.

everywhere with me. He's if we go to the. pool, this guy happens to be at the. pool. If we're going out on a hike, he's. coming down the same trail going the. opposite direction. >> Talk to this guy? >> No. we go out if we go out in town and. leave the resort for dinner, he the guy. winds up being at the same restaurant. and and my wife Katie's like, "There he. is. There he is. There he is. There he. is.". So, sure as [ __ ] we bought back from.

the gate. Like I said, this like a. two-minute walk. And I and we were there's it's like a. duplex, like a bungalow that's a duplex. didn't know who was staying on the other. side this entire time. Walk up there and. there's this [ __ ] guy that looks. identical to Gabe and he's the guy. staying in the other half of the. bungalow with his family. And I'm like, "Holy shit." Like, "Okay, that's weird." Now, I told you that I.

just lost a really good friend of mine. uh here in Franklin. He was a SEAL and. he owned a bunch of uh smaller hospitals. and he's he's he's like one of the only. friends that I had at the time where I. knew he wasn't going to ask me for. favors or promote his product or. whatever, you know, podcast. He he he. didn't need the exposure that I could. bring him and we could just sit down. I. didn't want anything from him. He. doesn't want anything from me. We both.

know that and our our relationship. starts developing really fast. He died of a heart attack on a hunting. trip right before I left on this trip. >> Uh probably in his 50s. and uh died with his son was on that. trip actually like a really good way to. go. You know, he died happy. His son was. with him like it was good. And um. but he had just died days before.

Go into the into the room. and I'm telling my wife, I can't believe. this has happened to me. Like what the. hell is going on? I can't believe this. And she's like, quit saying you can't. believe it. Like it's. >> it's. >> falling in your lap right now. Like he's. slapping you in the face. >> And my phone dings. don't answer it. because I'm in the middle of this. discussion with my wife. And so we get. done with that discussion and I'm kind.

of cleaning myself up. It's pretty. emotional. And I pick up my phone and. it's his daughter who had not met. Didn't have my number. Wasn't close with. his family. I'd met his son a couple of. times. I'd met his wife. I've not met. his daughter. And his daughter sends me. this text and she says, I'll summarize. it. It says, "Hey, I just walked into my. dad's gun room for the first time since. he had passed." And basically says that.

her dad talked to her and said, "I want. you to talk to Shawn because Shawn knows. a side of me that nobody else knows.". And. Shawn was becoming my best friend really. fast. And and he just wanted her to tell. me that he loves me for who I am. Now, this [ __ ] all happens within. 5 10 minutes. >> Yeah, that's. >> And so that to me was.

that that to me was that was it. I was. like, "Okay, um you you've got my. attention." Yeah. >> And uh and so. anyway, so then I came home and made a. bunch of calls to people that I um. people that I know that are in this. My. first call was this guy Eddie Penny uh. who had talked about his journey to. Christ. J Eddie Penny uh was a Seal Team. 6 uh guy and had another really rough go.

and then found Christ. And I released. his episode on Christmas. of 2022 maybe. And ever since then, just. about every single person on the show. has brought up God in some way, shape, or form. And I didn't put that together. really until until this. And I went back. through and I was like every single one. of them. >> And so I called Eddie Anyways, and.

that's what led me too to believing in. God is that that experience. So it was. it was through psychedelics turned the. light on and had me exploring and then. that like solidified it right there. I. was like, "Wow." Like that's too many. coincidences going on all at one time. for there not to be something not to be. some type of a higher power. >> I've never had an experience like that. I. >> I kind of hope I do at some point in my.

life. >> I hope you do, too. It's It's It was. life-changing. That's incredible, man. I'm kind of. speechless. Um, I think this question of what what is. the higher calling? What's out there? Where did we come from? These are all kind of intrinsically. related, right? And it's kind of the. question of like. we know what the what and the where.

and the how is, but like what's the why, right? >> And the the version of it that I've. wrestled with through the course of my. life is. I've never had a personal experience. that that's like led me to believe it. one way or the other. And I. I I tell you honestly, I haven't had too. many people that I've been close to pass. away. I consider myself really fortunate. in that. >> I know it's coming, right? Like time. time will take us all eventually. But um.

the version of it that I've always. wrestled with is kind of what I know. about physics and math and science. and kind of saying, okay, well, if if. you if you believe that these are the. laws of nature, right? that these are. the things that govern how the universe. works. You study physics, that's. fundamentally what you're doing, right? Is you're looking for a theory of how.

the world works. And if you look at that. theory and it's looking to your eyes. like it's very accurate and it really is. describing the whole world around you, you're like, that's how the world works, right? And it's like, well, how could. there be a. humanlike thing, humanlike being that. has the emergent phenomenon of humanity? That is the higher calling. That's the.

higher being, right? How could you. reconcile those two where you know. through. studying and empirical evidence that. light has this wave particle duality, right? And that quantum field theory, for example, is I think it's the most. experimentally verified scientific. theory because every time you scatter. some particles off of each other, you measure the angle in which they kind. of come out of it. And if you can. measure those really accurately and you.

get a lot of scattering events, like. you'll get more and more data that says. this theory that's predicting this is. matching nearly identically to what's. happening in the real world. So you're. like, are those the laws of nature? and they're incomplete, right? Because. we were just talking about like what. happens when you get to a small enough. time scale. Well, your understanding of. the universe starts to get really. wobbly, right? Or if you get to a really. precise energy scale, like when it. happens starts to become really wobbly.

So, it's not a perfect theory of all. this, but it is a theory that explains. this stuff. So, how could there be a god, right? And then, at least for me, time goes on and then. you ask the question, how could you have such well-written. theories without somebody writing them. down? >> Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I I think, >> right, how could you not have God? >> Yeah. >> So, the question is, which one of these.

is right? And I think the place that. I've landed is is that my little monkey. brain. can't really answer this question and. I'd rather spend my time thinking about. things that I can't understand. >> Mhm. Makes sense. I mean, I I I see like how could the pieces fit. together so nicely if they weren't But. then there's all these then there's the. then there's the the no answers, you. know, the where we can't find the answer.

like a fundamental part of life. It's. like where where does consciousness. reside? Nobody seems to be able to. figure that out. What makes you you? It's your consciousness, right? >> Yeah. >> Where does it live? Where does it go? It's an immersion phenomenon. >> Where the [ __ ] does it go? >> Does it go? >> Is that your soul? >> Yeah. >> You know, and and and. so I don't know. Maybe we just have not. you maybe we haven't hit that point. where or maybe we never will hit that.

point and we never will figure that out. I don't know. But, you know, it's it's. it's it's. a mystery. I tell you this is not directly related. to it, but it kind of is in the same. way. I'm very curious about whether. there's life on other planets. >> What do you think. >> there's life elsewhere in the universe? Um I think there is. >> You do? >> I do. Yes. >> What makes you think that? >> Um. I want to believe that.

>> I want to believe that cuz I think the. alternative is like uh it's very it's. very grim. It's very dark. The alternative is that there's nothing. out there and that this thing that we. call consciousness or life is incredibly. fleeting and fragile. Well, I think like. I don't I don't want to believe that. Um. but it kind of at least to me leads me. to ask the question like what.

has somebody else figured this out? Right? Might the answer be I think this. is like people care about aliens, right? It's like might there be some other. species out there that knows the answer? Might they be trying to tell us the. answer? >> If we could just talk to them, would we. get the answer? Right? Is there an. understanding of how the universe works. that. is so crystal clear after in 10 million. years for example, right? From where we.

are today where somebody could just. explain that. aside, I think we need a lot more. observation of the night sky because if. there is life out there, I don't know. that we're really looking for it. I don't know, man. I I just. I've gone under this topic quite a few. times and it's it's obviously very. conspiratorial and there's never any. hard evidence, you know, and and and.

I don't think there is. >> of there being life out there. >> I don't think there is. >> There's some pretty good evidence of it. >> Like I have not heard it, but I'd love. to hear it. >> Okay, so this one is a more recent. historical one, recent in the scope of. human history. Um, and again to the. scientists out there, if I'm missing. some of the points and butchering them, I'm sorry. because I'm sure there's some real. scientific people that are watching. this. Uh, there there was that star. system. I want to say this was James.

Webb. Again, I'm kind of I don't kind of. guessing a little bit on this, but there. was the observation of a star system and. in particular. looking at the um the behavior of stars. as planets pass around them far far away. in the night sky, right? So, neighboring. star systems. I think in this case the. star system was like one and a half or. two light years away. So. the amount of distance it takes light to.

travel is a tremendous distance, right? Um. but if you look at a star from far, if. you look at a star system, right, that's. got planets going around it. And for. example, let's take the example of the. Earth and Jupiter, right? Or sorry, the. the sun and Jupiter. Jupiter is big. It's a big planet, right? So as Jupiter. is orbiting the sun, the mass of Jupiter is also pulling the. sun, right? So the actual orbit's more. like this. It's kind of an exaggerated.

version of it where if you look at a. bright spot in the night sky with a. telescope or with a really fancy one. like the James Web Space Telescope, right, if it's got a planet or planetary. systems around it, it's going to be. wobbling a little bit. Um moreover you can take these bright. spots in the night sky and look at the. spectrum of light that's coming for it. from it right so if you just plot out. this is a simple example your x-axis you.

plot you plot out an xy plot right your. x-axis is different frequencies of light. your y-axis is how much light of that. frequency right so you kind of see a. curve like that. and you look at this bright spot in the. night sky. and you see the sort of wobbling thing. and then you see as one of the planets. passes in front of it, the brightness. dibs, right? Because literally there's. something in the way. So the light.

coming from it kind of goes down as it's. as the planets moving in front of it. Now this is the thing that was reported. in a bunch of scientific journals. earlier this year. actually pretty sure. it was earlier this year. is there was this one star system and a. planet orbiting it where they actually. observed. this is the star. This is the planet and. in this case my my eyes are the earth, right? the planet passing in front of.

the star system and the light from the. from the star. like passing through the atmosphere of. the thing that's in front of it, right? And when the light passes through the. atmosphere, right, it scatters off some of the. particles. It excites some of the. particles. And you can actually see the. signature of the molecules in the. atmosphere of the thing that passed in. front of it by looking at that XY plot I.

was saying. Right? So, it goes dim, but. you also see some peaks and valleys. cropping up that give you a snapshot of. what molecules are in the atmosphere of. the planet that's passing in front of. it. And they basically found the. biomarkers for life. I mean, they found they found water on I. think they found water on Saturn, right? And and is it Neptune? >> Uh, I don't I don't know. I know they.

found they found water on um see if I. remember. >> Mars and they have. >> found water. >> Yeah, there's presumably um a like water. like lakes of water or an underground. ocean of water on some of the planets or. some of the moons of Jupiter. So, if you want to look for. extraterrestrial life, I think there's. one of two ways you do it. The first one. is is you just try to like knock on the. door and it's like, is anyone there? Right. I think that's the going to Mars.

and looking for. like microbial life in the water, right? Or subterranean. I think that's going to. Europa and drilling down and seeing if. there's an ocean underneath there and. there's whales or something like that, right? >> The other approach is looking at bright. spots in the night sky and seeing if you. see any markers for life. And this. example that I'm talking about more. recently, I I want to say it was.

methane. I could be wrong that they. found the bio the signature form in the. frequencies of light that were coming. back as this planet passed in front of. the star system. But the thought process. there was that that is the only way that. we know that that's made on Earth is. through life. So if there's a ton of. this stuff in the atmosphere of this. planet, like how is it getting there? The hypothesis is that this is kind of a. smoking gun, that there's some sort of.

biology on this planet that's producing. this gas. >> So, if that's the case, number one, we. should be observing the [ __ ] out of that. planet and see, for example, if there's. any electromagnetic radiation that might. indicate some sort of intelligent life. Um, but. as we as we develop better telescopes. and more of them and have them. simultaneously pointed at more spots in.

the night sky, might this be the case in a lot of. different places? Right? Might this. actually be the case that if we look. simultaneously like everywhere in the. night sky that there's some star system. that's broadcasting. some electromagnetic signal that's got. information in it? >> Well, I did I did hear something that we. were receiving some type of some type of. a beacon or a signal from. wherever way the hell out there.

>> but they can't explain what it is. The. conspiracies I love is where you see. like a star system or a set of star. systems or something related to specific. spots in the night sky that show up in. conspiracy theories cuz it just makes. you wonder. It's like is that actually a. conspiracy? >> Yeah. >> Or is or might might if you just observe. the crap out of it, might there be a. little bit more to it? >> Yeah. It's a it's a I mean I I don't know. I. just I feel like, you know, like I do I.

do believe in God. I think a lot of the. things people are seeing are some type. of spiritual thing. >> Um. >> and then but then you know they're. starting to find I mean I don't know did. they ever debunk the pyramid on Mars or. sometimes I wonder if there's life if. there was life. >> As this conversation gets more serious. I'm going to eat some gummies. I wonder I sometimes I wonder you know I. mean they talk about ancient. civilizations and and you know maybe.

there were more advanced civilizations. here on earth than what we are now you. know 100 million years ago or whatever. and then the earth does things gets rid. of all the evidence and then it's here. we go again you know and and sometimes I. wonder I mean they talked about the. pyramid or supposedly they found a. pyramid on Mars I don't know if they. ever debunked that or or what? But um. I've talked to remote viewers. I do. think that's real. Remote viewing. >> What is remote viewing?

>> Dude, you don't know about remote. viewers. >> Tell me. >> Holy [ __ ] So remote viewers, how do I. put this? remote viewers. They. Okay, you've seen like surely you've. seen some type of a movie or a TV show. where they bring on the psychic and the. psychic's like, "Oh, it happened over. there in the shower and they used a. knife and then they go in there and. they're like, "Holy [ __ ] there's the. knife." You know, that that is that's. remote viewing. So, that's actually.

people can do it. It's it's a real. thing. >> Really? >> Yeah. The CIA had a program going with. the Romero Institute for a long time. I. brought in Joe McMonable, who is remote. viewer number one for the United States, and uh remote viewed a a Russian. submarine that was going to be launched. on a particular date. And uh the. director of the CIA said he was full of. [ __ ] Another agency got in touch with. him and they were like, "Where is it and.

when is this happening?" And he was. like, "It's right here in in Russia. they're gonna roll it off into this. canal and it's gonna. go into the ocean from there and it's. going to happen on this date. And I. think he was only like a couple of dates. off and it happened. And so that. triggered them to start this program. called uh Stargate. It's called the. Stargate program. >> I'm going to look this up. >> I'll send you the interview. >> Please do. I fascinated by this. >> So I went down that rabbit hole and uh.

and brought on a bunch of these guys. some of the guys that uh started. Stargate and some of the guys that. finished the program managers finished. Stargate. >> still exist. >> Stargate doesn't exist, but I'm sure. it's, you know, renamed it or another. program or so. I know Naval Special. Warfare was looking into this stuff. recently. Um, I got some doc. >> Is there any scientific explanation for. how this works? >> Just an emerging phenomenon? Well, I the.

way Joe describes it, Joe Joe says, you. know, early human beings, you know, had. this, you know, and and and. we used more of our brain back then. And. and he goes, he goes, you know, at the. beginning, you know, we would look at. each other and we would know what each. other's thinking and, you know, point to. things and whatever, but you would I. guess kind of like how animals. communicate. Yeah. you know, we're we're. >> sense and subtle stuff and.

>> we think that's we think we're so much. more advanced, but look how look how. long it takes us to converse and to get. our thoughts out now that we have. language, you know, and and so basically. what he was saying is we were a lot more. intuitive back way back in the beginning. and that we could kind of read each. other's thoughts and so communication. was almost instantaneous and he goes and. then we started Ed traveling around in. tribes and we started, you know,

developing language and then technology. came along and we got our head buried in. a [ __ ] phone or watching TV and uh. talking and you know and he goes and so. he goes, "Well, we feel like that's more. advanced. What we actually did is we're. going this way because we had the. intuitive um. brain power to to be able to communicate. without language, without any type of. electronic communication. and it was. just instantaneous. And he goes he he. thinks that I mean this is theory.

obviously, but he he thinks that we've. lost that over time and that everybody. still has the ability to do it. But but. >> most people know. >> you'll never figure it out, you know, cuz we're too busy wrapped up in other. things. And kind of like what my wife. was telling me when I just told you, she's like, "Hey, God's always around. you. You just don't you don't make the. time to let him in and you're not paying. attention." Yeah. Yeah. So, >> and when you just see the world. presented to you on a screen in a such a.

digestible format, like we're little. monkey brains. >> Mhm. >> we'll just spend all day on that. >> Yeah. >> Like our we will basically follow down. the path of the thing that's the most. understandable. >> That's kind of how humans work, right? given choice between something that. maybe is really hard to understand but. very important and something that's very. easy to understand but very unimportant, humans are going to follow the you know. they're going to follow the path down. this direction. >> Yep. >> On average.

>> But but what I was getting at is maybe. maybe there was life on other planets. before there was life. Maybe there's. only life in the universe. It. Maybe there's only life at one place at. one specific moment in time and then. when that's over it pops up somewhere. else. I don't know. You know what I. mean? But. >> are you um are you familiar with this. thing called Fermy's paradox? Fermy's.

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>> But, uh, it is fascinating. But, I I. want to get into. Robin Hood. How did that come about? How indeed? Um, company was the. brainchild of two good friends from. college. Um, we talked about it a little bit. I. don't know if we were we were chatting. I can't remember if it was on the air. I. guess it was. Yeah, we were talking. about Occupy Wall Street a little bit, right? >> No, that was not on there. >> Oh, that was just that was before. Okay.

Yeah. So, do you remember Occupy? >> I do. >> I don't remember like the whole premise. of it. I'm I I don't know much about. stocks or any of that kind of stuff. So, so you have to walk me through it a. little bit, but what what was what I I. remember the movement. It was basically. from what I understand it was the. everyday Americans were getting pissed. off that they they couldn't invest in. the stock market. Correct. >> That's kind of that was a version of it. that we saw. There were just general I. feel like the frustration was after.

2008. Right. Like we bailed out the banks. >> Mhm. >> And everybody else felt like they got. screwed. >> Yep. >> Right. And I remember the exact number. on this, but like a lot of the recovery. did go back to the wealthiest in this. country. And so we're talking like 2011, so this. is 3 yearsish after 2 years after the. financial crisis. And people were really really upset. about that. And so there were protests.

in New York, right? They were literally. occupying Wall Street. And we weren't a. part of the protest, but we were working. in finance in New York at the time, right? And we had a lot of friends in college. and they were like, "What are you doing, man?" And I was like, "What do you mean, what am I doing? I'm trying to at the. time we were building a different. finance company that was building. technology for other financial. institutions, like h sort of. computerized trading, low latency. trading, you know, sort of like the the.

direction that markets were becoming. more and more electronic." And we're. like, we're building technology to make. markets more efficient. And a lot of her friends were like, "No, you're part of the problem." And I'm. like, "What are you what what are you. talking about? Like what does that even. mean?" Right? They're like, "You guys. are like not you know, you're part of. the system, man." Like that sort of. sentiment. >> So that was kind of the backdrop. And. then we'd see these protests happening. in New York.

>> And I remember just being like, there's. a the sentiment here is very real, right? But it's kind of like the idea of. and this was kind of we talked a little. bit about the the immigrant background, right? But as as people that whose. families made huge sacrifices to be in. America to look at the financial system. and be like this thing is messed up or. rigged or doesn't work or whatever, right? It just it doesn't ring true. It's like. that this is this is the envy of.

everybody in the world, this financial. system, right? like you should we should. have more people be a part of it. So this was kind of like the backdrop. for what would become Robin Hood. This. was kind of the cultural backdrop, right? And I remember the genesis of the. company started over a phone. conversation that my co-founder and I. had and it was kind of like the company. that we were building then like was not. doing super well and we're like what. else what else can we do? and we're.

like, you know, like people are really. upset about access to the markets. They're really upset about wealth. inequality and all these things. And I. remember the thought was it's like. actually access to the stock market is. kind of a microcosm of this bigger thing. that people are frustrated about. and we weren't going to be able to. change politics. We weren't going to be. able to change policy. And I think at. the time the sense was there's a people. want. the government to do something about. this. And this is probably the beginning.

of my like view towards individuality. really emerging and kind of having the. sense of like this is not the. government's not going to solve this. problem. in no way. Like that's not going to. happen, right? Like. >> you're going to get some people that. like make noise about it that get. elected and nothing's actually going to. change here. But maybe this is something. we can change with technology. This is. kind of like the brighteyed and bushy. tailed optimism you get from.

young people, right? When you don't know. what you don't know and we're like, we. could change it. We could fix this. problem. And. if we could make access to market zero. commission, which is kind of what the. original idea behind the company was, wouldn't that actually be kind of. directly speaking to the frustrations. that people have about not being a part. of the financial system? And this is. where the bigger leap of faith came, right? It's like, and if.

more people of our generation were a. part of the financial system, then they. wouldn't be so frustrated. and we'd basically live in a more. harmonious or like happier society cuz I. didn't want to grow up with people being. up in arms about this. >> Like it just seemed like a really nasty. discourse. Enter Robin Hood, mobile, zero commission, and kind of like built from the ground.

up, brand new. Um, at least the. interface and the way the product looked. was I I think pretty different than what. was out there at the time. >> I mean, yeah, it was different. Everybody was. >> totally different. Yeah. Did Yeah. When. did you hear about it? >> I don't remember. I don't remember. exactly when I heard about it, but but I. remember I remember when I did hear. about it, it. it didn't matter how much money you had, you got access to the market. And I was.

like, "Oh, this is this is cool." So, I. started using it. I mean, I I I can't. remember. It was probably around. I would bet 2010 time frame maybe, >> a little later than that. We released it. publicly. I want to say in 2015. Well, then it was then it was then it was. after then. >> Yeah. >> But um but yeah, I did I I had heard. about it and I was like, "Oh, this is. [ __ ] cool.". >> You know what I was spending a lot of my. time doing? interviewing customers,

talking to customers, because I. basically realized at a pretty early. point in that company's history. that if um that if if we if we if we. tried to build this product like Google. builds Gmail for example, right, that it. wasn't going to go super well and that. the way that people used our product was. going to be fundamentally a little. different. What am I talking about here? If you have a person like a very wealthy.

person. and you've got an ordinary person using. an email client, right, the way that you. use an email client is not going to be. fundamentally different, right? You're. like the rich person's still like typing. in a message and sending it to somebody. >> Mhm. And so, for example, if you have a. bunch of really well-paid engineers that. are building Gmail, for example, and. they're like, "This is how I use it, and. that's how I think other people are. going to use it." The fact that those.

people make a lot of money is not going. to like it's not going to change their. perspective on the product. Now, on the. other hand, with a product like Robin. Hood, I think that's actually completely. different because if you have a bunch of. people in Silicon Valley that are making. Silicon Valley tech startup salaries and. income and they're like, "This is the. way that I live my life. I live in an. apartment, for example. I, you know, have a really high rent and I'm not. married and I have a high, you know, I.

have like a good income for my for my. primary job." and you're like, I want to. save enough money to be able to buy a5. or $10 cup of coffee every day, right? This is not going to map to the. expectations, reality, financial. circumstances. of people living in the rest of the. country that are having kids when. they're in their 20s and 30s, right? That are looking to buy a home pretty. early on in life. Like that doesn't.

happen in the coastal cities in this. country. like the the way people behave. is pretty different. >> And I kind of had this idea that if we. wanted to build a product that resonated. with a large part of the population. >> that the way to do it was actually to. make sure that we were getting the. feedback from those kinds of people and. incorporating that into the product. So even from the very early days of. Robin Hood, we would do this thing where. we would go from here's a feature that. we want to build.

Could be something small. It could be. some like could be how we introduce a. new product, whatever. So you got a team of people working on. it. You come up with a design for it. You come up with like how you think. people are going to use it and you. create a prototype of it. You create a. first version of it. What we would do in. the even in the very very early days of. the company is we would make a prototype. and I would say okay we start on Monday. then either on Friday evening or on.

Saturday morning. let's take the prototype that we built. and let's go put it in front of some. customers or some hypothetical customers. and at the time you know we had we were. kind of either had just launched or had. just announced the product and so what. we would do is we would go to Stanford. campus and we just camp out at the. coffee shop and just be like, "Hey," to. to random students like, "Can we give. you 50 bucks for like 30 minutes of your. time?" And you just be like,

"Here's a product or a feature. What. does this do? Like, tell me what this. does in your own words." And when you. actually get to that point, it was. pretty eye opening because you're like, people. don't see this the way that we do, right? People are in their own world. They're not paying attention. Like the. amount of attention that people give to. a new product or a new thing, pretty. vanishing. And so if it's, you know, for.

one example, right, was like zero. commission stock trading. People are. like, "What the hell is that?". They're like, "Is that like the interest. rate on your car?" And you're like, "No." And then you you you know, you let. people ask their questions and you. listen to it and you're like, "Oh, it's. like that thing when you trade a stock. and you have to pay $10." Cuz at the. time, a lot of brokerages were charging. $10 commissions. And this is like closer. to 15 years ago at this point, or not.

quite that much, about 10 years ago. and you're like, "Holy [ __ ] people. don't know what the basic part of this. is." And so, we have to unpack that and. see if we can explain that to people in. a way that makes sense. So, you kind of. like realize that if you're not getting. actual feedback from people that use the. product who may have a pretty different. financial life than you, you're going to. be way off the mark. And what we ended up doing, and this was.

really important to me, is I would try. to prioritize time every quarter, every. half to go and travel somewhere outside. of the Bay Area and just interview. people. And a lot of the times in those. interviews, we'd have like, you know, like an actual like customer. research person that we'd hired leading. the interviews. And I just be sitting in. the room listening, kind of forming. opinions, and people like, "Who are you? I'm like, "Oh, I just work here. Don't mind me.".

Uh, it's kind of interesting, right? Because. that that took us to a lot of middle. America. >> So, the whole premise was to get. everyday Americans access to the stock. market and crypto. Correct. >> Yeah. >> How did you I mean, how did you gain. access to the markets? >> Me? >> Yeah. you how did. >> how did the app how did Robin Hood get. access to the markets without without.

going through all the middlemen? >> Oh, I thought you were asking how I got. introduced to the stock market. >> No, how did how did Robin Hood get. introduced? >> Yeah. So, we were we are still a broker. dealer. So, we're registered as a broker. dealer and when we started the company, we worked with a lot of financial. institutions on the back end. So, we. worked with a third party clearing firm, right? We worked with a lot of different. service providers and so we kind of got. the regulatory licenses and stuff to be. able to offer this service but we were a.

little startup right we were like 15 20. people when we first launched the. product like that's wow teenytiny right. and so we kind of had this path where we. went from building the parts that we had. the resources to build to over the next. five to 10 years sort of vertically. integrating key parts of the company. over time. So a couple of years after we. started the company, we went selfcleing. So we built our own clearing house and.

that was like a that was a big sort of. like you know technology buildout. basically. How fast I mean how fast did Robin Hood. take off. once it was introduced? Yeah, this is an. interesting one because it it kind of to. me always speaks to the question of. product market fit. Have you heard of. this before? >> Right. So, it product market fit is this.

tricky one, especially with consumer. products, cuz when you got it, you kind. of know you got it. And if you're not. sure, you probably don't have it, right? It's kind of like the sort of like sound. of click almost that happens when people. like, "Oh, I get it. Oh, I Why is it? Oh, that's interesting. How does it. work?" Right. And I remember when we first announced. the product,

we had a wait list for people to be able. to sign up to get it. >> No kidding. >> Yeah. And that weight list got real big. real fast. So, I want to say. um see if I remember this correctly, but. I want to say we had like. 50 or 100,000 people on the wait list in. the first month. Holy [ __ ] It was. really in the first month. >> Yeah, I'll have to go back and check, but I'm pretty sure that's what it was.

And I remember when we first announced. the product, we actually had the product. like we kind of had this in in this kind. of in between stage where we were. testing that the website worked. right and then it got picked up and. posted on Reddit on the internet and it. sort of got announced. quote unquote when it was half baked. We. were actually working on redesigning the. actual logo. And when it first sort of. like got out there and got posted all. over the internet,

um we actually still had the old logo. which looked like a little it looked. like a little um little rectangle with a. little chart in it and a little talk. box. Um, and we had we like in the next week. had to like kind of finalize the version. of the logo that we had for many many. years until kind of recently we did a. subtle redesign of it. So, it was like. it was one of those moments where I. built products before that did not have.

product market fit and it was very. [ __ ] frustrating cuz you put all your. heart and soul and effort into building. this thing and you think it's awesome. and you think it's something that people. want and if you do a good job of like. introducing it to the world and. announcing it, it'll get, you know, if. you talk to a bunch of reporters. beforehand, right, people will hear about it. Like you can. get awareness for a new product, but. then you see the awareness and then you.

see people not really sticking around or. like they download it, they try it and. they go away. And you just look at what. percentage of the people are still using. your product after a month, 3 months, 6. months, and you see it's just going down. and down. you're like that does not have product. market fit because you could get more. people to use the thing but the evidence. is there is when people find it they. don't stick around. So there's no point. in getting more people to find out about.

it or to use it because they're just. going to go away like pretty quickly. This is also why I was like stressing. that point about talking to customers. and customer research because having. built a few products, you know, or at. least one product before that didn't. have product market fit, you're like, I really really want this. to succeed. And you ask the question. very earnestly like, what do I need to. do to figure out what people actually.

want out of this? >> What were people saying? in terms of what they wanted from it. >> Yeah. What did I mean they loved it. I. obviously loved it. I mean there was. like you said you said a 100,000 person. weight list. >> The interesting thing was people were. like oh I'd try that. That's. interesting. I'd try that. Or like I'd. always thought about investing in the. stock market and oh there's no minimums. Cuz I think at the time we didn't have. any minimums for the product either. And.

like oh this is something I definitely. want to try. And so you had a lot of. people that had not invested before that. were like, "This is interesting. I'd. always thought about investing. Maybe. I'll give it a try." There's also some. group of people out there that were. actively investing before this and. they're like, "Oh, I see the economics. of zero commission. Let me try it for. that reason.". So. that's kind of the interesting part. about it, right? Because the thesis of. the company wasn't that we were going to.

build a great product just for the. people that invest today. The thesis was. there's this generation of people. that if you give them a product that. they want to use will actually start. investing. Does that make sense? >> It does. So you're not really like. you're not like solving a problem that. people necessarily. are frustrated about. It's more that.

they haven't done the thing. >> Mhm. >> Right. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. What a wild journey that has been. >> I mean it was the only product like that. at the time. Correct. Is it. >> uh zero commission? Yeah. Yeah, I mean. it took a few years before the rest of. the market kind of did the same thing, right? It was like 2019. There was at. the end of 2019, if I'm remembering. correctly, is when a bunch of the.

brokerage houses all got rid of their. commissions. That was. >> I think that was triggered from you. guys. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Me, too. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, that was that was like that was both. very. >> you revolutionized the entire market. >> How [ __ ] cool does that feel? >> I don't know, man. It's a it's it's a.

it's crazy to to have made all that. stuff happen. still on the board of directors of the. company, still actively involved. Um, and to have the chance to work on. something else at this stage of life. also feels like a gift. Let's move into cuz you you. revolutionized it in more than one way. You took out the commissions, you gave.

everybody access. Then we move into the. GameStop AMC. What was the other one? Was there another one involved in that? >> GameStop's one I remember. There were a. couple other ones, too. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, what happened with the GameStop stuff? What was the whole scenario? >> That was a wild time, too. So, it was kind of interesting. So, this. was like Right. This was January of 21. Mhm.

>> Right. And. we built. navigating Robin Hood through CO like. going from a company that was at a nent. stage, right? I think we were I think we. were still under a thousand people. before CO happened or getting getting. pretty close to it. and to go from that. to having. some real trials and tribulations. rapidly scaling the engineering and the. technology because when people went home.

for co like they a lot of people were. like let me check out the stock market. let me check out Robin Hood and that was. a lot more traffic than we were planning. for and so that whole year felt like. just a mad dash to keep our service to. keep up with the customer growth that we. were seeing. >> How many customers did you have at that. point? >> I don't remember. A lot. Millions. Yeah. I don't remember what the number.

was. It's a lot though. The other interesting thing was I had. actually just had my first son and I was. kind of at this interesting point in my. life where I was kind of starting to ask. the question like what do I want to do? Um cuz. physics and science one of these things. that was in the back of my head still. Finance was something that I like loved. doing and I loved changing the industry. It wasn't something that I felt like I.

wanted to do my whole life. Um, are you the kind of person that. you go all in on something. and then once that's accomplished, you. start to become bored, >> for the next thing. >> I'm very much a onetrack mind person. I'm not a great multitasker. Like I'll pick one thing and I'll. pulverize it and then I'll move on to. the next thing. >> Do you like the the journey or the. achievement better?

I like the journey for sure. I actually. think about this a lot right now. because. when I think back about the Robin Hood. era, right, of my life like the what as. it was for me, right, it was the journey. of going from having this idea, wanting to make this thing a reality. Not a lot of people believed in it, but. my co-founder and I like we both saw it.

We believed it with our mind's eye. to then figuring out the path, right, to. make it real to go from a person that. didn't know much about finance, you know, to being on the forefront of. this industry. And like when you're at. the forefront, I'm sure you feel this. way with podcasting, right? It's like the way that you kind of take. what you're doing with your own work is.

kind of the direction the whole industry. follows, right? And it's like this. feeling of mastery that I think you only. get if you start from first principles. >> Mhm. >> Man, that felt cool. That was like that. was that was the that's the thing when I. look back on that that's kind of the. high that I find myself chasing is the. process of going from a novice to being. a master of the field.

I don't want to like toot my horn here. about how much of a master of that I. was. to go from not knowing to having. our company have the place that it did. in the marketplace. Just intuitively. understanding the problem space like. intuitively understanding how to do it. Like I want to prove to myself that I. can do that in other things. So that's kind of the thing that I find. myself chasing. Is it the outcome? I'll. be honest like I grew up poor. We're.

very poor, right? And so at that time, the money was a big motivator, right? Like I didn't I didn't want to be in. poverty. I wanted to have more for my. future family, right? I wanted to have a. better financial outcome. I feel like. I've been talking about this whole. podcast, right? So, I'm not going to come on here and be. like, "Oh, well, it was, you know, just. about the accomplishment. It was it was. the journey of a man that didn't have. very much money that was trying to. create his own legacy.".

When you get when I got to that point, I. find myself craving the uncertainty in. the journey and finding myself like back. in the mix of something that looking for. the next thing. >> Yeah. >> So that's it this time, right? The the. question I'm trying to ask myself is, could I do it again? Right? Could I. revolutionize something else?

Um, could I figure out the path. to going from being a novice at. satellite engineering. to being at the forefront of it? Like, I. don't know how to do that. I have a lot. of ideas and I'm testing my ideas all. the time and I'm trying to get better at. it. Um, but yeah, it's like the uncertainty. that really fuels me sometimes. >> Yeah, I can relate to that. That's I.

mean it it's. I don't know but for me like. when you hit the apex of whatever. industry you're in or whatever you're. doing in life whether that's sports or. or business or whatever. I mean once you. hit that apex. there's an aspect that becomes boring. and it's time and I I almost just said I. suffer from that but I think it's a good.

thing. I mean I think it's just. find something new. You want to figure. out how to be the best at it and then. when you figure it out. you enjoy it for a minute. then you're. you're on to the next thing. And so like. right now like I'm. >> I'm looking for the next thing. I think. I found it and I'll use. >> you know what. >> you think you have? >> Yeah. >> Can I ask what it is? >> I could tell you it's in the tech space.

>> But um but it has to do with with cyber. security. >> Cool. >> But this this is like my next thing and. I met some amazing people that I'm going. into business with and I'm really. [ __ ] excited about it. And and cuz I. like you had mentioned it, I can't. remember if it was downstairs or if it. was on the show, but but you had talked. about, you know, you always have to have. that creative outlet. >> Yeah. >> You know, and you know, like when I. started this, I this was my creative. outlet. Well,

>> like when it becomes the main thing, it's different. >> Yep. Yep. it it I mean once you hit you. know as close to perfection as you think. you can and there's not really much left. to innovate you know in in in. the particular space that I'm in you. know I mean yeah we got a new studio. coming and all that stuff but the the. the model is here and and so it's it's. not taken near the creativity that took. me to build this from a small little. room in my attic into what it is today.

you know being a a top 10 podcast we've. been on the number one slot and and and. you know, we got Yeah, we got the new. studio and all that. That stuff's. awesome. I'm really excited about it and. I love doing this still cuz I get to. talk to people like you. But as far as a. creativity aspect, it's not really here. anymore. And so I like. I fi off creativity. Like I I love it. I. I love.

disrupting things and and and and going. to new new ventures because I I've. realized like I'm about the journey. I. mean even you know this the Navy Seals. you know like I I joined at 17 or I. enlisted at 17 I was in BUDS by 18 SEAL. training got in there and and yes there. is another level you could go to SEAL. team 6 but I wasn't sure what that was. like at the time I mean it was it was. not.

nearly as publicized as it is now and. and I was like I mean I. became a SEAL went to or. the journey was awesome. This isn't. everything I thought it was going to be. I'm going to move on to the next thing. And then I went on and tried business, failed miserably and and real estate. And then and then the the CIA thing. popped up, which I didn't even really. know was a CIA first that I was. contracting uh that I was trying out to.

contract for. Then I got there and and. once again like I was like all right. well here I am. This is a contracting. for it's pretty cool. What's next? You. know and and and. now I'm finding myself in that exact. same headsp space again. What's next? And uh and and and yeah. So it's. >> it's interesting. >> Do you ever think about the balance. between being a student and a teacher?

Yeah, >> I think about that sometimes too. >> What do you think about it? >> I I felt I this kind of comes back to. the question that you asked a while ago. is like what was happening during that. time. Um I I remember the balance of. being a student a teacher felt off to me. because we were let's say a thousand. people right at the company. and I found myself spending the lion. share of my time and I think rightfully.

so. teaching everybody at the company what I. knew right teaching people how to do it. in the way that we kind of thought the. right way was to do it was right and I. found myself like looking in the mirror. and being like. 35, 36, whatever I was at that point, 35, and I was like, I'm like, I'm. spending all of my time teaching people. stuff. And actually, this was right. around the time that I got into building. cars. And I literally I had a mentor for.

a while. I was like literally a student. And I remember the joy and satisfaction. of learning something new from from the. beginning. and how quickly how much how. much stuff there was to learn. Right? When you get to the point that you're. teaching people stuff all the time, it's. kind of difficult to find new things to. learn. You have to be pretty you have to. be looking for it basically, right? And. if you're not careful, you can certainly. end up in a situation where your [ __ ].

doesn't stink. Where you're like, well, I said it, therefore it's right. And I, you know, we all suffer from that to a. certain degree. >> When you hit that point, you just stop. developing. >> Yeah, you stopped developing. Right. So, I did a kind of I did a pretty um I. think somewhat. out of left field thing, which was right. actually before the GameStop stuff. happened, probably two or three months. prior. Um, I announced that I was.

actually stepping back as CEO of the. company cuz before Vlad and I had been. co-CEOs. from beginning till right before IPO. and I was like, you know what, I want to. keep doing this, but I also want to. carve out a little more time for my. family. Um, and I think the all this to say when the. when the GameStop stuff was happening, which was in January of 200, I actually just stepped back as CEO of.

the company a few months prior. And so it was like this. >> So that was a that was a new CEO that. >> No, no, no. We we had been CEOs. together. >> Oh, okay. Okay. >> But this was like the beginning of him. as CEO by himself. Yeah, >> tough time. >> So, my my my experience there was like, holy cow, how do I help. this comp how do I help the company that.

I started like navigate this like. black swan event that's like once in a. lifetime, right? It was stressful. It. was scary. It was really exhausting, right? But we. navigated through it. >> With prices going up on just about. everything lately, saving money is. essential but stressful. Trying to. manage subscriptions, track spending, and cut costs can feel overwhelming.

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that they can invest their money in in. both stocks and crypto. And I don't know all the dynamics around. what went on with the GameStop. uh AMC stuff, but it was. to my limited understanding of it, it. this is the this is the everyday. This. is the little man sticking it to the big. to the big man. Correct. And and so can.

you can you just walk me through what. exactly was going on with GameStop at. the time? >> Why it was so controversial? Because. that that's the other thing that you. revolutionized is then I remember seeing. I remember seeing all these hedge funds. experts and and and and hedge fund. managers and all these [ __ ] stock. gurus and they're like this is happening. cuz these people don't know what the. [ __ ] they're doing. And it's like well. it doesn't really matter if they know. what the [ __ ] they're doing because like.

you you're going to have to learn to. adapt to adapt because. they're not going anywhere. So maybe. you're the one that doesn't know what. the [ __ ] you're doing anymore. >> I think the best way to This is like the. version of it that makes the most sense. in my mind is there were like two. freight trains that were. marching down the train tracks on a. collision course. The first one was this. idea of democratizing. finance for all. It's the mission behind.

Robin Hood, right? Which is this idea. that more people should have access to. the markets. and the other freight train. was internet meme culture and those two. collided and it created the GameStop. saga, right? It was kind of this. confluence of like a lot of like memes. and. you know just like people being sort of. like exaggerated versions of themselves. online and a lot of that stuff happening.

on Robin Hood and. it was wild. Yeah. Hold, hold. I. remember seeing old hold, hold, wild, man. It was wild. And all the while I. was like, yeah, it was crazy cuz I had. literally just stepped back a few months. prior and I was like, "Oh my goodness.". Coincidentally, 6 months later, we took. the company public. I was in the middle of 2021. Um,

yeah. So why why did it come out that. people couldn't sell GameStop? They could buy it, but they couldn't. sell it on Robin Hood. What did the SEC. get involved? What happened there? So. what happened was um it was actually. there was there was a there was a. regulatory clearing house requirement. around the capital that we needed to. have to operate the brokerage. And actually this was something that was.

going on between the registered you know. financial services registered people. that worked at Robin Hood talking to the. regulators and they made the decision to. limit the I think it was to limit the. buying more buying of that symbol. because it was increasing our regulatory. capital requirements. Um, and so for a day we we we put that. pause on.

which created this like frenzy on the. internet. And it was kind of interesting. because people were like. batting around all these conspiracy. theories and were like, "No, we're. actually just trying to work with the. sort of like clearing house regulators. to operate our business.". >> That's all it was. And we ended up. raising a bunch of money over the next. couple of days to help support that. capital requirement, right? Like that. And it's kind of interesting on this one.

because. this one has been talked about so much. And like Dan Gallagher, for example, chief legal officer of Robin Hood, also. recent board member, Aether Flux, um was actually one of the people that. was kind of navigating Robin Hood. through it and spoken about it a ton. over the years, but was. black swan. >> Yeah. >> Wow. That was a time.

>> It's crazy to think that was 5 years. ago. >> Damn. Was that 5 years ago? It was. almost five. Well, what was it? No, not quite five. years. >> Four years, right? >> Four and a half. >> 2021. >> Yeah. Four and a half years. >> Wow. >> Yeah. That that navigating through that. dominated a lot of the next couple the. the few years that followed of my life. And then. probably the next big change for me was.

um a little over a year ago leaving. full-time the company I started just. being like I'm going to stay on the. board but I want to focus on this space. idea that I've had. >> How long have you had that idea? >> Um. so I had the idea of wanting to do. something commercial in space for a long. time. What the commercial thing was it. took me kind of a while to figure out. So, this kind of is where these two.

companies have some shared thought. process behind it because there's a. there's a common creator between the two. of them, right? You've how many times have I said. capitalism on this call or on this. conversation? >> Quite a few. >> A lot. Right. It's something that I. fundamentally believe in. The reason I. keep talking about it and and the reason. I think it's so important is that I. think it has this like. huge benefit for individuals and their. own pursuit of life, liberty, happiness,

right, and their own self- betterment. Capitalism is also an incredible force. for innovation, right? And I kind of. felt that one of the things that when we. got when when we created Robin Hood, there was this sense that. there were like the access to capitalism. wasn't available to everyone. And so our. app literally put. capitalism in the capital markets on. your phone in your pocket. And look at how quickly the stock market.

changed. >> Mhm. >> Happened really fast. >> The name was perfect, by the way. >> Yeah, the name was on point. How did you. guys come up? I mean, >> that was a. >> It's perfect. >> Yeah, >> like there is no better name for what. you guys built them. >> There there were some other much worse. working titles for what the company. would be. Uh Robin Hood was a really. good one. I think my my co-founders. girlfriend now wife was the one that. came up with that.

Um, no, but the the thing that had been in. the back of my head was this idea of. capitalism and growing up around the. space industry. I think one thing that. was very. it was very frustrating for me is I grew. up in the space household and hearing. about the space industry and all of it. was in the past tense, right? the space race or whatever, it. happened before either of us were born.

It was over by the time we were born. And how could this be? How could this. thing that was. presented in in all of pop culture as. the future, as the frontier, we're done. with it? Like, what the hell? Like, we. should be having space should be all. over the place. >> Mhm. >> Right. because it was one of these big. technological evolutions. that we thought was going to bring us to. the stars as a species. And then the '9s. and the 80s and the 2000s, it felt like.

we as a society collectively got. distracted by the internet. That the. internet was just so darn entertaining. that like nothing was happening in. space. This is kind of my my my. worldview, right? Or my sort of. caricaturization of the world. When I saw the SpaceX rockets, the. Falcon original Falcon rockets landing. upright, I was like, "Holy shit." Yeah. I was. like, "Is this actually happening in my.

lifetime? Cuz if it is, I need to like I I feel. compelled to to want to work on this.". And I'm like, "I'm not quite sure how or. I'm not quite sure when or I'm not quite. sure if, but I felt this like this this. physical force inside of me. I'm like, I. have to work on this. And I remember thinking to myself, I'm. like, there's got to be if we could. bring more capitalism to space, more. more sort of ways for people to make. money in space, that's how you make. space a bigger part of everyday's life.

>> Mhm. >> And I want to say that to contrast that. with what the space industry is today or. has been is I'd say it's for the. government by the government at. government prices, which means it's not. happening very quickly. It's like. happening at a glacial pace. Now, if we could come up with more ways. for capitalism to happen in space, meaning you can find more industrial. applications for space, you're going to.

untether this from like the government. being the the sort of like primary. purveyor of this to like everybody and. individuals being able to have. like a a bigger role in this. Um, but you also create opportunities. for people to get jobs in this industry. because if you want to work in. aerospace, what are you going to do? You. going to work at SpaceX? But Lockheed, Boeing, like there's got to be a lot of options. and a lot of great careers.

And if you look at the sort of set of. commercial things that are happening in. space, it's actually only a handful of. industries. It's only like I this is. kind of also my character. characterization. but it's defense. earth imaging/academia. and telecom like those are the main. industries in space. There's other stuff. that's kind of on the periphery but. those are like the main big ones. And my.

thought process was there's got to be. something related to natural resources. we can do in space. There's got to be. natural resources that we can bring from. space to Earth that would create a. reason for people to want to build more. industrial stuff in space. And I think the light bulb went off more. recently in the last couple of years. when I realized. that if you wanted to bring natural. resources from space back to Earth, the. obvious one is energy.

Now, space solar power is actually kind. of an old idea. It's like an old 1970s. idea from NASA and the DoD, which I. love. I love old ideas. The idea of zero. commission stock trading is actually. kind of an old idea. Like people had. been talking about this in the 80s and. 90s as like a theoretical possibility. Mhm. >> Um, and so the idea of wanting to work on. this idea of space solar power that.

people thought about in the 70s and the. 80s and the '90s, but doesn't exist in. society today, it's like, man, this is. checking a lot of boxes. It's an old. idea which to me says it's on. strong intellectual footing as it for. its rationale. May not there may not be. a good solution, but the rationale is on. solid footing. the reason why you'd want. to do it. Um, and it has this opportunity to increase. the capitalist envelope in space.

And the part that is the more recent. sort of thing that made me want to do. this full-time is I saw a path to doing. it. with technology that exists today at a. small enough scale that we could iterate. on it. So, enter Aether Flux. the mission, the company with a mission. to deliver energy to planet Earth. And I. I think next year is going to be a. really important year um both for space.

energy and I think with a exclamation. point for our company cuz we're putting. um. two satellites in in in space. The first. one next June. It's like a year. >> Oh man, that's awesome. >> Is it Are we in July now? >> We're in July. July 1st. Yeah. So, I got to go [ __ ] get to. work tomorrow morning. Um, yeah, we're. putting a first satellite up. That does. it. >> Congratulations. >> Yeah, >> that's.

that's incredible. So, that's kind of a. long-winded answer, but. >> So, you are launching. satellites into space, which will. collect solar power and beam it to. Earth. >> Yeah, that's [ __ ] wild, man. That's you know what the wildest part. about this is is you don't have to have. a scientific breakthrough to do this. We're doing this with technology that. exists today.

Um. that that's like that's one of the core. thesis behind the company, right? Is to. take this thing that is been science. fiction for a long time and to make it. science reality. And I think that there's definitely ways. of doing space solar power where you can. hinge it on an individual scientific. breakthrough, right? You could find a. version of it that makes great sense on. paper but requires a billion dollars to. build a test vehicle. You're like,

that's not going to happen. >> Mhm. >> Right. you what what I was looking for. was a path to do it that you could do it. at small scale so that you could iterate. on the technology cuz I think the. iteration speed is really closely tied. to how quickly the technology can get. better. If you can only iterate on. something once every 5 years, it's not. going to be very good because you're not. going to get to update it but every 5. years. If on the other hand, you have an. iteration cycle that's like you can.

update this thing every six months, every year, maybe even faster, then. you're even if you start out at the. wrong answer, you're going to be moving. in the direction of the right answer. quickly. Um, so what is this thing called space solar. power? Should I tell you about it? >> Yeah, please do. >> Some water, too. Best way to explain it I think is to. kind of walk through the three things. that are happening in our design and.

then kind of build out from there. So. the first satellite that goes to space. next June again this is like. we have to actually do a bunch of work. between now and then. It's a satellite bus that we purchased. from a third party called Apex. So, what. is a satellite bus? It's basically like. the the frame of the satellite, the. solar panels, the way to mount it to the. SpaceX rocket, all the communications.

antenna so that when it's in space, you. can talk to it, you can orient the thing. in space, you can point it in space. It's basically like um. it's the satellite minus what they call. the payload. And the payload is the. thing that's doing whatever the job is. that the satellite does. So common. payloads are like uh communications. antennas, right? Or maybe a big camera. to take pictures of the Earth or the.

atmosphere, right? So it's everything. minus. the payload, which is the job that it. does. So we're buying that from another. startup. Actually. we are designing and integrating the. power transmission system on the. satellite which is the laser system all. the optics for pointing it and the final. part is the ground station for receiving. the power. So the satellite does broadstrokes two.

things. First thing it does is it. collects power. And so the sun is a big. power plant. They're just spewing off. energy. from nuclear fusion, right? So you have. hydrogen helium fusion happening. Heats. the whole thing up. Thing glows red, emits solar radiation which are solar. panels. convert from. photons which are the particle of light.

to electrons energized. So you go from. from a beam of light from the sun to an. electrical current on the satellite. That's what the solar panels do. There's different kinds of solar panels. you can use. Um you can use very. expensive solar panels that have a. longer lifetime and a higher efficiency. or you can go the Home Depot route. Um and there's there's a pretty. interesting discussion there and like. why you might do one or the other. So, let's say you've got a big, excuse me, a.

big beautiful. solar array on your satellite that's. generating power. That power in the form of an electrical. current. Then you can either have that. go directly to the laser system or for. this example, let's say there's a. battery, which were our satellites for. the first demo missions at very least. will have a battery on it. So you take. all the electrical current that the. solar panels are generating and you. charge up a battery on the satellite.

That's step one. Let's move on to step. two. That's the pointing and the laser. system. The pointing in the laser system is. basically how you go from the charge on. the battery to a beam of light that's. exiting the satellite that's precisely. pointed to a small spot on the ground. So what does this do? So we use. something called a fiber laser which. takes the electrical current that's in.

the battery and it goes into a bank of. photo dodes which are basically. glorified. like glorified LEDs. >> Okay? >> Those things those are thin silicon. wafers that when you run a current. through them they start emitting light. You take the light from tons and tons of. these, you put them in a fiber optics, and then inside of the fiber optic, you. have. uh what's called a gain medium or a. second stage to the laser that takes all. the light that's coming out of each one.

of the LED, the photo dodes. These are. called diode pumps in our case where the. light coming out is kind of diverging. like this. And you have it go into fiber. optics. When it goes through the second. stage of the laser, it takes all the. diverging light and it straightens it. out. So then you have a fiber optic that's. got. a energy in it in the form of light. Wow. You take that beam of light and then you.

put it into basically a telescope. which then takes the beam of light and. it projects that beam down to the. ground. On the ground at first we're. going to have a bigger array to receive. the power. The array on the ground is. going to be bigger simply because the. actual satellite optics are smaller. Turns out if you make the optics on the. satellite bigger, you can get a smaller. spot on the ground. It's a physics.

conversation for another time. But on. the ground, the architecture, and this. is where the tie-in with the DoD comes. in, is designed to be portable, small, um, and ideally of little to no. strategic value if captured. So, what is this receiver on the ground? There's the we'll talk about the more. beefy version of it and then you can. kind of strip this down if you needed to. use it for more tactical applications. The future version we think is going to.

be a solar array that's 5 to 10 m in. diameter. probably. about the size of this room. right. on some sort of platform that you can. gimble so you can point it at the. satellite and a big old battery. And as a satellite's passing overhead, it's charged up or it's charging itself. up and it's going to have these windows. of time where it passes overhead where. it's over the ground station. It starts.

out by forming a link with the ground. station. When it does and it knows that. it's got a clear path to transmit power, it'll start discharging the energy from. the battery into this like laser system. that'll then put all put that energy. into the form of light. That light then. gets pointed down at the solar panel on. the ground which then takes that one. frequency or that small set of. frequencies of light that you're passing. down and the solar panels are tuned for.

those frequencies of light. So you get. higher efficiency. So you have this ground station that. then is taking the light that's coming. down from the satellite and turning it. into an electrical charge again which. you can use for whatever you can use it. to power stuff. >> Wow. How how. it is both the power plant which is the. so the vision that we have for this. right. So we have one satellite that. does this next year. Ideally, we have a. second one that does the same thing.

that's on a orbit behind it. So, we can. test some of the more. technical functionality. But the idea is is that as you. demonstrate this, you'll be able to get it more mature. As. you are able to get it more mature, you. intend to be able to make it more. accurate, right? You you kind of want to. be able to like step up the maturity of. the technology. Then you start building bigger, higher.

power satellites. And the way that you. have more power available in space is. you put more satellites up. So the idea. is is that. over time we're going to continue to. build more and more satellites to build. a constellation, an energy constellation. So imagine like. Starlink for power. >> Wow. >> That's kind of the long-term vision of. it. What do you think is that? How wild. does that sound? >> It's it's it's.

pretty out there. But um. but you know, I mentioned, you know, I'd. interviewed uh this gentleman, Steve. Quas, who was talking about this just. about a month ago, and I I was I I saw a. tweet that he he did, and he was talking. about beaming energy down and and. all kinds of wazoo stuff, but I was. like, "This guy actually seems like. legit. He's not He doesn't seem like. your typical internet weirdo. >> Me or him?

>> Him. >> Oh, yeah. >> And so I dug into him a little bit and. brought him on and then he started. talking about how we have the technology. to be. >> Is that why you reached out to him? Because he was talking about power. beaming. >> Yep. >> Sick. >> He was talking about power beaming. He. was talking about manipulating space and. time and he was talking about. um being able to transport yourself in a. matter of seconds basically from you. know I don't know Washington DC to. Beijing. >> Really?

>> Yeah. >> I love that power beaming is in the. conversation with that stuff. >> Me too. >> Yeah. >> And then and then we found you. But so. what I want to ask is I mean with one. satellite. and what do you call what do you call. the ground station. >> ground station receiver station. >> receiver. >> maybe we'll come up with a more we. haven't entered the branding phase of. this yet that'll come. >> Gotcha. So what how much power will the. ground station receive from the. satellite.

>> for the first satellite that we're. putting up? We're like we're the thing. the version of this that I was kind of. articulating right is we're we're trying. actively. to have every one of the components be. things that are manufactured. meaning there's other people that have. uses for these technologies. that are either commercially available. or in the case of our laser system for. example right we're working with a third. party that's taking. similar technology and basically making.

it work better for space. So the whole. idea behind this first satellite is we. want to use existing. supply chains, existing commercial uses. for the technology and try to package. these things together so that they're. more than the sum of their parts, right? Meaning like you take a laser that's. used for metal cutting and a satellite. bus that's used for telecommunications. and you kind of like put these pieces.

together and make it work to do this. thing that's power beaming. The reason I. mentioned this is that there's a lot of. constraints and the power output of the. first one we kind of have pegged it at a. point where we think it's power beaming. but the future systems are going to be. much higher power. >> Okay. So the first one is going to do an. output of about a kilowatt of power out. of the laser system into free space. And on the ground we think that worst. case sort of like you know the the base.

case scenario is that we're able to get. you know enough energy out of it to. light maybe a light bulb or you know you. know less than 100 watts of power. >> Oh good. But we think that if the system. works, we should be able to get. significantly more than that. So a. couple hundred watts of power. So the. first version of this next year is like. proof of concept. Like we're able to get. enough power down with all these. constraints that we have to actually. generate an electrical current and use.

that electrical current for a demo like. a light installation, right? And I think. that in and of itself, even at a lower. relative power level, it kind of shows. that the whole end to end thing is doing. what we say it's going to do. >> After that, the goal is to start power. scaling, right? Make higher power. satellites and make your ground stations. able to receive a lot more power. And. the vision that I kind of have for this.

in the future is that each satellite is. going to generate enough power. So that if it's transmitting power to. one ground station, that one ground. station, you know, whether it's one dish. or several dishes that are receiving the. power, we'll be able to generate enough. power to power a small neighborhood. >> and homes. >> Wow. Would this would the beam punch through. clouds? >> Depends on how much clouds there are.

So. >> yeah, it I think more more likely than. not what we'll end up doing is we'll end. up beaming power when we see pockets of. openings in the clouds. >> Okay. How fast? So. we're talking about with the satellites. in orbit and it come it it so it's a. line of sight. >> Yeah. >> Beam, correct? >> So when it how how long will the. satellite be in the line of sight. window? >> Like 5 to 10 minutes. >> That's it. >> That's it. Yeah. Is that enough time to. drain the entire battery?

>> We may not want to do that actually. because it it might be the case. So, first of all, the idea is is that. similar to Starlink, right, is as you. put more and more satellites up, you. start getting. >> so be multiple satellites beaming in at. once. >> Well, you'll have handoff. You'll have. one satellite powering a ground station. It's going to move out of the field of. view and another one will take over. >> Okay. >> Right. So, it'll be handing off from. satellite to satellite. And as the first. satellite moves out of the field of view.

of the first ground station, it's. immediately going to start looking for. another satellite, another ground. station to start beaming power to. >> Oh [ __ ] Okay. >> So the idea is many satellites, many. ground stations, and for each satellite at any point in. time, there is a ground station within. its field of view. Because the. satellites eventually are going to be. operating. around the clock, right? Mhm. >> Like they get power, they need a ground. station to just distribute the power to.

Cool. That one's out of the line of. sight. We got another one there. Start. distributing there. Cool. That one's out. of sight. Next one. So, kind of back and. forth, back and forth. >> So, it it will it so basically, tell me if I'm correct on this. Let's just say there's 100 ground. stations. So these satellites around the globe. So. these these satellites will.

will pretty much always be discharging. its load of energy. >> Correct. So it will it will constantly. be receiving. >> I guess not constantly but but it'll be. receiving. >> depends on which orbit it's in. >> and then it will always be it will. almost always be beaming energy into one. grand station or another. And there'll. be and there'll be a line of these. And. so it's just it's almost like a. like a patrol. just.

>> this one's beaming in here, it moves. It's beaming over there and the next one. picks up and it's just a consistent. orbit of that. >> It's also worth mentioning there's other. ways of doing this. This is the version. that we think is going to pan out. >> The other ways of doing it are like you. build one big beautiful satellite. you build one truly large and exquisite. satellite. >> and we're talking about putting all. these things in low earth orbit, right? So, you're talking about like 500 to 600.

km straight up. In the grand scheme of. things, that's kind of not that far, right? Whereas. geostationary or geocynchronous orbits, so the Earth is rotating right around. its axis. If you get far enough away. from the Earth, the satellite will be. rotating around the Earth at the same. speed that the Earth is rotating. So, you'll stay over one fixed point. >> Interesting. >> That's 36,000 km up. >> Holy [ __ ].

>> That's real [ __ ] far. So another. version of this architecture and this is. kind of like the version that was. written about in the 70s was instead of. doing this super complicated handoff. maneuvering thing which remember in the. 1970s probably the computers weren't. there to do this right like in order to. do this handoff stuff you have to be. able to exchange data between. neighboring satellites. >> to even be able to say I was power I was. sending power here I'm handing this off. to you right like that satellite's not.

just going to like have a premonition. >> Yeah. >> You know, it it's not going to be remote. viewing the other satellite spots. >> Even to do something like that, you need. modern computers and modern computing, right? The old version of this was, excuse me, one big beautiful satellite. in geostationary that's like maybe the. size of a small city. And that thing is. continuously beaming power or nearly. continuously beaming power down to one.

again really large ground station that. might be kilometers in diameter. >> Yeah. But I mean if you did that and. then and cloud cover in the atmosphere. does dilute the beam uh somewhat then I. mean then you would you'd be in a worse. spot, right? >> Yeah. You you there are ways of. transmitting power through the clouds. and kind of ignoring them. So it actually has to do with the. frequency of light that you use. >> Okay.

>> Right. So actually like when you get to. microwave frequencies like Wi-Fi. frequencies and stuff like that, those. will pass through the atmosphere much. less disturbed. >> than if you're using infrared, which is. what we're using for our demos. The flip. side is is that with infrared, we're. able to use lasers. So we get like a. tight beam of light as opposed to having. to focus a bunch of antennas that are. diverging. >> Gotcha. >> So if you're trying to like use. microwave frequencies, for example, you.

would need to have an array of microwave. antennas lined up so that you can send a. signal to the ones at the outer ends of. your array to basically noise cancel. That makes sense. >> It does. It does. I mean this this way just I mean. >> so all this to say there's a way to. demonstrate this that we're working. towards right now. There's also the. future build of how you make this an. industrial a commercial thing which we. have a sense of how to do it. We're also.

pretty open-minded. And I think that's. kind of coming back to the idea of. iteration cycle, right? If you want to. try to. sort of. sort of like will this thing into. existence, right? You kind of want to. find the the version of it that's most. likely to work and you want to like be. iterating towards it over time. Mhm. >> Cuz in order for this to work, to. generate enough power for it to be. useful, we're going to have to have lots. of satellites. Now, I think it's also.

worth mentioning like why DoD? Like. what's the point of the DoD and all. this, right? The application that we're building for. first is actually to power remote DoD. installations. Like it's kind of. you could probably teach me a lesson on. this, but fuel transport to the. battlefield is very dangerous. >> Yeah. >> Right. Imagine just snipping that supply. chain alto together and you have this.

little receiver dish and all of your. power infrastructures in orbit. >> Yeah. It cuts so many logistics out of. the game that it's it's. >> totally different. >> Amazing idea. And yeah, we we we could. have used that for the last 20 years. >> Yeah. >> Um, interestingly, the DoD has been. writing about this for a long time. Like. we this version of this architecture. that we're building. kind of arrived at it from a lot of.

conversations with a group out of DARPA. So, there's a group, this guy Dr. Paul. Jaffy, who if he's listening to it, what's up, homie? Um he is a research. scientist was at uh naval research lab. before and has been working on power. beaming technologies for kind of a long. time. Recently moved over to DARPA and. had been has written a lot about this. So I had been talking to him, reaching. out to him as a again a student, right?

And I think it was in those. conversations that he kind of pointed us. to a lot of the work that the DoD's done. on this and kind of trying to articulate. cuz the DoD has written a lot on this. about applications for this like why how. do you use space-based solar power in. this use case right and it's all about. these small portable receivers as at. least as I understand it um and there. was a there was a project or a proposal.

that they were working on. Uh I think. they still are. where you generate power on the ground. and you relay it between several. satellites and you get it down to a spot. on the ground where you need it. >> My kind of thought on this was if that's. in service of building that receiver, it's like yeah, you'll you'll need the. receiver, but rather than doing these. hops to the atmosphere, what if you just. put the power plant in orbit? So, it's kind of an interesting idea,

right? Because it what we're proposing. building is both the power plant and the. power lines. because in this model, right, you you'll. need like a local power grid wherever. your receiver is, but you're not going. to need power lines from space to Earth. >> Yeah. You're also not going to need. power lines from like your home or you. know some big data center where you're. some application where you're using the. power to the power plant cuz that's just. done directly from space. >> Mhm.

>> Wow. I mean. you know General Petraeus said. that energy is the lifeblood of our war. fighting capabilities. General Mattis. has asked the DoD to unleash. us from the tether of fuel, and this. does exactly that. I mean, there's a long history of technologies, sorry if I'm cutting you off. There's a.

long history of technologies that have. started in. space technologies that have started in. the DoD sort of government world that. have proven to be useful for people on. the rest of the world. like GPS is one. comes to mind, right? What else do you see this? Who who who else like what what what. other customer base is there for this. other than DoD?

>> Yeah, I think there's actually the goal. of this is to build full energy company, right? Like a true energy company. And as you can mature the technology, as. the cost of launch starts to come down. with Starship or other heavy launch. vehicles, as we get our [ __ ] together. and our manufacturing processes are able. to really squeeze down the cost of. manufacturing, the medium to long-term goal for the.

company is going to be reduce the price. of energy that we can sell. And the more we can reduce the price, the more industrial applications open. up. So if you can start to get this with. cost competitive with energy production. on the ground, then you're really. competing against terrestrial energy. sources, that's kind of where I want to. take this eventually, right? So whether. it be receivers for our laser power. beaming you know in the like you know.

within existing solar farms for example. or you set up a separate like small. receiver station where you're able to. connect to satellites to get power from. like I imagine this to be a new energy. grid and one that augments. the you know the copper cables and lines. on the ground in the same way that. Starlink is, you know, complementing all. the fiber optic telecommunications.

infrastructure on the ground. So, I think there's that's kind of the. goal is to make get the cost down. As. you get the cost down, you can start. being cost competitive with more use. cases. >> Do you see this becoming more of a how. do I say this? More of a. decentralized grid. >> I would love that for that to happen. Yeah, that's kind of the vision for it. I like to punctuate a very serious. conversation with these gummies. They're great.

>> Can I ask you a question? >> Sure. >> Curious um. curious any interesting stories from. being deployed around energy. infrastructure that you've had like fuel. transits like any sort of dicey stuff. that happened. Well, I mean, I'm not too into logistics. I mean, with. my background, I'm more more of a war. fighter and so the the logistics are. all, you know, pretty much taken care of.

for us. But a lot of times, you know, we. would be especially with well, actually. both with SE teams and contracting for. CA, I mean, we're we're we're not really. near. most of the time, at least where I like. to go because I like the action. um. we're not near like a big base like Bram. or Kandahar or Baghdad, you know, and. and we're we're pushed out and you know. that could be in something that's just a.

a a safe house where you're sucking off. the local energy grid, which a lot of. those places were very unstable, you. know, especially Yemen. I mean, the. power and the internet would just go out. all the time. >> Interesting. And. >> were there diesel generators around? You. know, some it depends. If you're at a if. you're out of house, you're likely not. going to have a diesel generator because. that would stand out. And the whole the. whole purpose of having a safe house is. to blend in with the local population, right? >> Yeah. >> So, you couldn't have that. >> That's what you mean by safe house.

Okay. >> That's what I mean by safe. It's It's. literally just a house in a in a in a. neighborhood that. >> happens to be safe. >> that that maybe. But but. >> kind of safe. >> Yeah. it. You'd have them spread out. throughout the city and everybody, you. know, everybody there on the ground. knows, hey, there's a safe house, there's a safe house, there's a safe. house, and it could be an extract point. or a a safe haven, you know, um or you. could be operating out of a safe house, which is, you know, what we did the.

majority of the time. And so, you're. using you're using local energy. You. know, if you're at like a forward. operating base, like a SEAL platoon is. there or. a a small element, then yeah, you're running off diesel. generators and and so you know what can. happen with the logistics of that? I. mean, one, it's expensive, you know, two, it I mean, convoys were getting hit.

all over in Iraq and Afghanistan. And so. if your fuel gets hit blown up with by. an ID, well then you're [ __ ] out of. luck, buddy. >> Yeah. >> You know, you're not getting any energy. And so with something like this, I mean, it would it would 110% be a gamecher. right off the bat. >> Did you ever have to lug solar panels. into the field? >> Um or no. >> Do you know people that did? >> No.

Lots of communications equipment and. antennas and [ __ ] like that, but not. solar panels. >> How would you charge that stuff up if it. ran on a Was it battery based? >> Yes. >> What happens if it runs out of. batteries? >> You always got extras. >> Okay. You carry more batteries. >> Yep. >> Everybody carries batteries. >> That's wild. Yeah, that makes sense, though. I've heard I've heard some people. talking about stories of carrying like a. solar ruck pack into the field. Well,

>> like I said, I haven't been out there in. 10 years. So, it's lit. This year is 10. years since my last deployment. So, who. knows what the hell they're running. nowadays. But, >> but in my day, we had batteries called. 5590s that that powered all the. communications equipment. >> Cool. And so everybody would have I mean. batteries are like ammo for us, you. know, because if you lo if you lose. communications, then you're dead. And um. >> yeah, >> but I'm I'm sure they probably have some.

type of solar panels they're carrying. around now. Wouldn't surprise me one. bit. >> It's come up a couple of times in my. research, but I it's it's hard to tell. how prevalent that stuff is. >> Yeah. Well, if you need connections, I. can get you connected to the modern day. war fighter. They'll tell you all about. it. >> Yeah. >> So, but. >> I'll probably take you up on that at. some point. >> No problem. >> Wow. How many satellites do you think it. it would take to power like a small.

decentralized grid like this the size of. a small town maybe 15 20,000 people? Um. tough to say. Yeah, I'd have to do some. back of the envelope math on it. I think. also um. the question that I kind of have right. now is how big to make each one of the. satellites versus whether to just make. more of them, right? >> Mhm. >> Because I actually think there's. probably an advantage in making them. smaller because each one becomes.

less strategically important. Each one. if there's a failure of a component kind. of becomes more throwaway. Um, yeah, I'd have to do I'd have to do some. back of the envelope to get a reasonable. answer. But I think it's also going to. be. when you when you when you if you go the. constellation route with this, as much. as you're providing power for one. location, you're also starting to build. capacity to provide power pretty much.

anywhere in the globe. because you'll. have some satellites that are over the. place that you want to deliver the. power, but a lot of the times they're. going to be orbiting back around the. Earth to get back to that spot or. they're orbiting around the Earth and. maybe just missing that spot altogether. >> Mhm. >> But they'll catch it in two days when. the other satellites won't be over it. >> Gotcha. >> Right. So, it's it's actually. >> how will you make the determination of. whether to go bigger or more? >> That's a great question. I think it's.

probably going to be it's probably going. to be trial and error. It's probably. going to be like where can we power. scale it until some components start. becoming really difficult to power. scale, right? And like what that is, it. could be something small, it could be. something big. Um, and I think it'll. also be a trade-off of how to package. them into the satellite into the rocket, right? Because. Starship is huge and each one of those. depending on how big the satellites are,

you might be able to put like a 100 or. 200 of them in there. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> No [ __ ] 100 to 200 satellites in one. starship one lift. >> Yeah. Some very early modeling we did, we kind of thought that we could get. those ballpark of numbers. >> Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's kind of the part. about this that was like, how is this. ever going to become big? How are you. ever going to get to like proper. constellation density or like how do you. get to the same constellation size as.

Starlink, right? Well, Starship kind of. changes that equation, right? So, if. it's a 100, let's just say for the sake of this. argument, it's 100 satellites per. Starship, right? And let's say that there's. 7,000 Starships or 7,000 Starlink. satellites in space. Roughly speaking, let's just say for the sake of argument, that's like 70 launches.

Damn. And if you think about what the. requirements are going to be, the point. I'm trying to get here is is in order. for for Starship to be able to do. something like the Mars mission, they h. they're going to have to build this. thing for rapid rapid rapid reuse. Like. they're going to have to to hit those. those windows of time to launch to to. get from Earth to Mars, for example, right? there's going to be a time crunch. in which they're going to need to put. lots of payloads into orbit, which means.

that during those times more, you know, I haven't looked at their flight plan, so I'm kind of guessing how this is. going to work, but I'd imagine that. there's going to be a period of intense. launching where they have to do tons and. tons and tons of launches to get the. payload in orbit to assemble whatever. stuff they need to do to then send it to. Mars. If they're building for that kind. of capacity and like rapid reuse. when you're not trying to go to Mars, there's going to be stuff that you have. the ability to put into space, right?

There's the launch capacity. Maybe it's not the first year that. Starship goes live. Eventually, the. launch capacity. >> is going to be available to be able to. do missions like this. >> Mhm. How long do you think these. satellites will last? I mean, there's no. weather elements up there. What's What. >> in low Earth orbit, things de-orbit. naturally. >> Okay. >> There's enough drag up there that. they'll just fall back down, which is. actually probably fine. So, I think 10. years or so would be kind of the target.

for the lifespan for satellite. >> Okay. Okay. >> Yeah. >> And it's kind of interesting on the. satellite design. We talked about this a. little bit in the beginning, right? It's. like do you use cheaper, less efficient. components or more expensive, higher. efficiency components? And the answer is. like it's not totally clear. Like you. actually kind of have to do the. trade-off to figure it out. We're I I. bring this up because a lot of the times. the questions are around efficiency.

where because the supply is free, it's. actually the thing that matters more is. like what are the overall economics. which may actually be better with less. efficient components. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. >> What am I not asking I should be. >> I don't know. We've talked about a lot. of stuff. Um, >> with the satellites. >> Oh, with the satellites. Right. Right. Um,

where my head was going. Uh, let me think. What else is with the. satellites? Um, how small do you think these receivers. can get? >> I think 5 to 10 m in diameter. is kind of what I mean. Look, we might. end up being a if we get to that, we. might end up shooting for smaller. We. might end up shooting for like 2 and 1/2. m spot on the ground. Do you see this. overpowering individual homes? I think it could. Yeah. I mean, I think. it's it's kind of there's a lot of steps.

between this and that, but like we're able to use Starlink to. power individual homes for internet. Like, I would like to be able to do that. Yeah. I think at the very least there. might be a case for having receivers. local to neighborhoods if you didn't. want to put them like actually on top of. a roof for example. I. >> mean we're on the cutting edge of this. so I mean I don't know could it could it. beam it to a car while driving? Like.

could this revolutionize everything in. energy? >> Yeah. So here's something you could do. is you could beam it to moving. platforms. You could beam it to boats. >> Ships. >> You could beam it to ships. You could. possibly. >> ship could hold a a ship could hold a a. five to 10 meter wide receiver. >> Many of them if it wanted to, >> right? And you could end up in a. situation where you're able to electrify. some of these things that batteries are. never going to be able to do, right? >> Man, that's [ __ ] cool, man.

>> Yeah. Imagine a fleet of satellites when. they're flying over the Pacific, for. example, >> dedicated to a fleet of naval ships. >> Yeah. or they switch from providing. power to like some industrial. application to now they're over the. Pacific and now they're powering ships. and then they're back over land and. they're powering industrial. applications. >> That's amazing, man. Like what you're. doing is just. is it's incredible. >> This is the brave new world, man. And I.

I think it's look. this is really hard, right? like this. what we're talking about doing here. There's it's not a foregone conclusion. that this is going to happen. Like it's. a tremendously challenging technical. problem ahead of us. But the the point I'm trying to get at. here is like I think people like me in. society that have the desire to do stuff. like this, that have the experience and. the means to make it happen, like I. think it's on us to try stuff like this,

right? Like it's. >> it's awesome. >> It's a higher calling, right? Like you. gota if you have the if you have the. ability to like. make this contribution to the technical. landscape of humanity and I'm 40, right? Like I have years ahead of me. Knock on wood. Um. yeah, it's like it's seeing if you can. will this into existence.

>> Well, seems like you're doing a damn. good job, man. Last question. >> Yeah. If. >> you had three people to see on this. show, who would they be? >> Three people. I'm assuming you're asking. for people that are alive today. >> Yeah. >> I mean, this is maybe um a couple of. better answer to this. You've had Trump. on, which I think is awesome. Um I'm trying to think of nonobvious. ones cuz the obvious one would be Elon. Musk. Have you Would you have on. somebody like Kla Harris?

>> I tried to get her. >> Did you? Yeah, we we were in touch with. her camp. She was gonna do it. >> I think that would be fascinating. >> I don't know if she'll do it now, but uh. she was gonna do it and then for one. reason or another it just fell off and. and they decided not to come. But I. really wanted that interview. >> Yeah, I believe that. Yeah, I think it would I think that. would have been huge. Um, I think it would be interesting to see. because Trump did so many of these.

interviews, right? To get like a real. apples to apples comparison. >> Yeah. >> Um, who else would be interesting? I I'm kind of blanking. Let me let me. think about a little bit. >> All right. No worries. Well, man, I'm so. glad we met. >> Yeah. >> What a fascinating conversation. I I. really appreciate you taking the time. and and coming to Tennessee and sitting. down and describing what you're doing. and what you have done and all the. rabbit holes we went down and and uh I.

hope to see you again. >> Likewise, my friend. >> Perfect. Best of luck. [Music]. No matter where you're watching Shawn. Ryan Show from, if you get anything out. of this, please like, comment, subscribe, and most importantly, share. this everywhere you possibly can. And if.

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