Annie Jacobsen - Nuclear Armageddon in 2024 | SRS #120

[Music]. Annie Jacobson welcome to the show it's. delightful to be here thank you for. having me I have been looking forward to. this for so long we had to postpone it. cuz you went and spoke at the EU. Parliament I spoke in Brussels to. members of the EU part parliament in the. audience yes well I think uh it was well. worth the wait and um actually I think. it worked out better you know that we.

rescheduled for later because now we. have more to talk about we do we have no. shortage of things to talk about yeah we. could we could probably go on for days. here but um but everybody starts off. with an introduction. so let me know if I'm missing anything. but Annie Jacobson American. investigative journalist pullit surprise. finalist and New York Times best-selling. author you're an author of seven books. and best known for your book so far Area.

51 in uncensored history of America's. top secret military base you just. released your seventh book called. nuclear war a scenario WR and produces. television programs including Tom clany. Jack Ryan your books have been named. best of the year and most anticipated by. Outlets including the Washington Post. USA Today Boston Globe Vanity Fair apple. and Amazon your Princeton graduate and.

captain of the women's Varsity ice. hockey team as we spoke about earlier. and your wife and the mother of two. sons yes am I missing anything that's. that's about it well we got a lot to. dive into I want to focus mostly on your. new book nuclear war but. um we have we got to knock a couple. things out before we get in the weeds so. I have a patreon account they're our top. supporters they've been with us since.

the. beginning I wouldn't be here if it. wasn't for them and neither would you. and uh so one of the perks that I offer. them as they get to ask a question uh to. each guest and so today's question is. with today's attitude towards fake news. do you think we will ever gain public. knowledge of the topics covered by your. books what a great opener question um.

I think of the idea of fake news as air. quotes entwined with the idea of. strategic. deception and that is something I have. written about in many of my books no. doubt we will cover this but an. interesting question there because what. I the takeaway that I see is like how. much should we trust what we are being. told and that is certainly why I write. books is to sort of uncover the these.

LGH held secrets and bring them into the. light of day and so to answer the. question specifically I think you want. to go to as many sources as possible. it's why I read all sides of the aisle I. will read International papers I will. watch different programs that people. might otherwise think are in opposition. of one another read things on the. internet listen to the podcast and then.

come to your own opinion about things. because that's that's interesting well. one how much should we trust I would. love to talk to you about that but you. know I try to do that and I try to read. both sides of the L do you get a lot of. flak for. that I used to but I don't anymore. because I think that's very much part of. my reporting style I no one knows how I. vote no one needs to know how I vote um. I write about podus in all of my books.

president of the United States and so. that keeps me in the middle and it also. allows me to have incredible. conversations with all kinds of people. and that I think keeps me comfortable. with what I'm learning because I'm. learning how to make my own judgments. about things and I think America is. getting Savvy to that as well man that's. great to hear because.

I do that I think people probably know. which way I vote but I don't I don't. like to make it a point of any of my. discussions I don't I like to hear both. sides and sometimes when I'm especially. when I'm critical to my own side man I. really get a lot of flack but you know I. think that's part of the problem that. we're facing in the country right now is. people have become and I've talked about. this several times I think people have. become.

they're not tied to their own ideas. values and beliefs anymore they're tied. to their political candidate and party. and you know when you do that you're. only getting what that side wants you to. hear whether you like it or not you know. and so it's just it's refreshing to hear. somebody. that that listens or pays attention to.

both sides and and gives a you know a. bipartisan take on on whatever you're. reporting on so thank you for doing that. well also what comes to mind is there's. people talk a lot about tribalism right. like and there's tribe and then there's. tribal you want to have a tribe you want. to have people that you know have your. back and usually those people the the. tribe the true tribe right they actually. are perfectly fine with you having.

opinions at least this is my take my. tribe is oh Annie with her opinion about. that or Annie with her interest in that. they're fine with it you know they might. not like that or do that or think that. but that's the tribe tribalism is like. that's where I think it becomes a little. bit dangerous and fraught because then. you're supposed to adopt really a party. line you have to have an opinion about. this BEC and that that just puts you in.

a really awkward position because I. think naturally we're all such creatures. of. multiple you know multiple ideas and. multiple ways in directions in which we. want to head and it doesn't have they. don't have to be mutually exclusive yeah. yeah you know it's it's. it's weird times we're in right well. there are weird times but you know I am. a historian also and so all of my books.

cover you know going back National. Security issues to World War II and. we've always we if we're talking about. Americans have always been tribal have. always had weird times so I'm not as. pessimistic about how terrible the times. are right now because I've read so much. history about how terrible the times. have always been yeah it's kind of how. you want to see it do you find it do you. find times today different than some of. the stuff that you've studied in the.

past I I am well one thing about me is. I'm always looking for the. similarities and then understanding the. differences but I find thing I'm a I'm. an optimist at heart even though I write. about these incredibly dark Grim topics. I think that like I'm a pragmatist right. like know the facts don't be afraid of. them but the optimism of it all comes. from from being able to see certainly as.

I get older um and I and I write more. books and I learn more things and I. interview more interesting people oh we. are more. similar than different both as people. and. also culturally through his like through. the different decades and generations of. modern America. interesting how much you brought up how. much should we trust M how much how do.

we even know what to trust. anymore well I look at things. specifically head-on so I'm uh it would. be I would be better to your. listeners and my readers to deal with. like specifics than big generalizations. I can certainly make big generalizations. but what I think about war and weapons. and US National Security and secrets. because that is what I write about but. in terms of operation.

um the specificity is important it's. like wait is Area 51 really that were. the Nazi scientists really that uh is. the DARPA program about biohybrids. really that you know I can speak to them. specifically because I think that again. I'm going to give you the information. that I know and then people can decide. what they think because the. takeaway is incredibly can want me to. give you an example yes please so this. is the best example I can think of a. point of view when I wrote a book called.

Operation Paperclip which is about the. Nazi scientist who came to. America for to build our weapons. programs after World War II so they were. former Nazis MH um and this book. published in 2013 2014 back in a time. when a journalist like me could actually. appear on Fox News and CNN on the same. night you almost can't do that anymore.

yeah right they just don't the Royal. they don't let you but you could then. and I would go on to the let's just call. them the conservative and the liberal. right so I'd go onto a conservative. organizations's media program and they. would. say oh my God Annie Jacobson thank you. so much for writing Operation Paperclip. I mean you showed us that these guys. were these terrible Nazis they were. odious etc etc but man did we need them. to come to the United States or.

otherwise we'd all be speaking Russian. now so thank you for writing this book. okay then I would go over to the really. liberal stations maybe even the. Holocaust Museum type scenarios and they. would say to me oh my God Annie Jacobson. thank you so much for writing this book. Operation Paperclip you showed us in no. uncertain terms these horrible evil. Criminal Minds should have been hung at. nurburg they never should have come here.

you make that so clear thank you so much. for writing this book. interesting you take away they read the. same. book they're they took. away the a point of view based on the. same set of facts and so when I can. understand that about people and there's. no I suppose one group isn't right and. one group isn't wrong and when you can. look at it like that.

and maybe this also comes into play of. you being we talked about this earlier. like when you're a new parent versus my. kids are college aged right the wisdom. that comes with parenting I believe if. you want to be an. optimist is that you learn how to help. your children understand that different. points of view are fine same sets of. facts that's great advice that's great. advice parent to parent yeah thank you.

thank you but um we want to talk about. actually I forgot something I almost. sometimes I forget not very often but. everybody everybody starts off with a. gift okay there you. go performing Vig enhancing gummy bear. gummy bears they're not performance. there are legal in all 50 states amazing. they're definitely legal in California. so you're you're cleared hot to bring.

them back it's just G amazing the TSA. will not you know pull me over they. might try to steal them but uh they' be. like wow that's sha Ryan that's right. that's right great fantastic you're. amazing keep going no is it oh no that's. good oh no this this is very important. some stickers yeah put it on my car. there there you go with my Mammoth. Mountain sticker nice and the Sha Ryan. Show there you go there you go I have. had a macv SOG sticker on my car for a.

while did you really I did and it I got. some Hogs yeah that's a I've never even. seen a Mac v a Mac uh I'm going to send. you one thank you so much and here's. here's something for. you oh man that's a that's a billy W. coin and um we'll get I'm sure we'll get. into surprise kill vanish after nuclear. war but they kind of entwine all my. books in twine but Billy was perhaps the. most legendary.

CIA operator. Singleton in the agency's history began. his operations when Eisenhower was. President that's incredible thank you. just died yeah he just died when did he. die he died April a year ago oh man so. yeah so a year exact almost wow well. thank you very much I can't wait to. speak about him in a little bit but um. nuclear war MH so your new book is about.

a nuclear war. scenario and you know you talk to all. these I mean you get access to people. that nobody really gets access to I read. that Leon Panetta how are you getting. access to former SEF former director of. CIA um and all the rest of his resume. which I'm not I I could I could go on. here but.

people don't get access to figures like. that how are you gaining access to. former. directors what's the saying the harder I. work the luckier I get there's that part. of it uh this is not my first rodeo so. seven books I do find that when I reach. out to people to ask them if I can. interview them and. I you know say my creds some sometimes. they say oh I'm familiar with your work.

I've read and they name a book okay so. that helps um but I think in principle. the. greatest. contribution that I can put on the table. and it's perhaps why some of these. really you know significant people and. when I say that like they have a lot of. information to share that is powerful. and that the public benefits from. knowing. like Panetta um it's that objectivity.

card that I have which I believe is so. important I'm trained as an old school. journalist you are here to report the. news down the middle of the aisle you. should not have an opinion okay when you. write long form books maybe at the end. you kind of give your opinion a little. bit or you might suggest it so that. there's something to think about for the. reader but for the most part tell the. you know relay the facts I mean the. origins of Journalism come from the idea. that anyone a high school student should.

be able to understand what you're. writing about mhm and I that's how I. write you know I write for the regular. old people I know I'm read by the. generals and Admirals at the Pentagon. because they tell me so but I just write. for regular. people you know I've seen a lot during. my time as a Navy SEAL and a CIA. contractor and I've learned even more. hosting this show the one thing I can. tell you for sure is that it pays to be.

prepared right now with our national. debt surging to unfathomable levels. Global tension rising in the corruption. in Washington ask yourself are you. prepared financially me I'm buying gold. and silver so I'm not caught off guard. by the next recession or global conflict. and I've teamed up with one of the top. gold Ira companies gold C to make that. happen so I want you to go to shaikes. gold.com or call 855 936 gold you'll get.

a free 2024 wealth protection kit from. gold Co plus you may qualify for up to. 10,000 in bonus silver while supplies. last so go to shaikes gold.com or call. 8559361820. gold or visit shaikes gold.com. performance may vary consult with your. tax attorney or financial professional. before making an investment decision.

Today's Show is sponsored by. helixsleep.com. Sleep especially as you get older is. critical especially that deep comforting. sleep go to helixsleep.com and take the. Sleep quiz I took it and was matched. with the midnight Lux Helix knows that. everyone's unique so they have several. different mattress models to match based. on your body type and sleeve preferences. once you match your mattress comes right. to your door shipped for free when you. receive your helix mattress you'll be. amazed at how well you'll sleep and if.

your back needs some extra TLC like mine. you'll love their hybrid design that. combines individually wrapped steel. coils in the base with premium foam. layers on top they have a 10-year. warranty and financing option so a great. night's sleep is never far away Helix. sleep is also proud to support our. active military service members veterans. military spouses and military family. members with exclusive discounts on. promotions on Helix products helix Helix. is offering up to 30% off all mattress.

orders and two free pillows for our. listeners go to helixsleep.com. SRS that's helixsleep.com. SRS this is their best offer yet and. it's not going to last long with Helix. better sleep starts. now nice nice you had an interesting. fact. here I want to just kick it off with. this a full scale nuclear exchange.

between the US and Russia will likely. kill some 5 billion. people can you yeah how did you come up. with 5 billion and what does that. scenario look like and and keep in mind. nuclear war a scenario is a nonfiction. book it presents a hypothetical. situation in the future that is based on. fact so the 5 billion figure for example. is not my fact that is a fact from.

Professor Brian tun and a group of. scientists that he led reporting on this. subject for decades in their newest. paper for nature magazine uh nature food. actually based on climate modeling. systems of what would happen after. nuclear winter and so the book takes you. from nuclear launch to nuclear winter oh. God five billion people are dead after. nuclear winter but a key haunting. line that was said to me that really.

allowed me to see the book clearly. because when you're you know writing. books as a process you're reporting. you're interviewing people you're. figuring out how your chapters are going. to lay out when I did an interview with. the former stratcom. Commander General keler and we were. discussing what a nuclear exchange. between Russia and America would look. like and he said to me the world could. end in the next couple of hours what is. stratcon okay great question and how.

great that we don't need to know. everything that's how right um strategic. command is the most important combatant. command you know combatant commands. they're what 11 now. right um it's the most important. combatant command that almost nobody has. ever heard of outside of strategic. command outside of the military. structure it is the command commander of. strategic command is in charge of the.

nukes he's in charge of them he's the. steward of them there's 150,000. employees beneath him in his chain of. command the president when the president. needs to launch nuclear weapons he. communicates with the stratcom commander. that's how important the stratcom. commander is no good and you got access. to him I did and you guys had a. discussion about this we did how did. that.

start you know dear General keer I mean. the actual discussion oh the actual. discussion with. his Origins like very much it's what I. relate to about your podcast like his. Origins like how did you wind up the. commander of stratcom right and like he. wanted to. be uh a. musician you know so it's like there's. this idea that you wind up stratcom.

commander and then you begin with. people's origin stories and how and and. how they are as a person and you know I. recall him telling me about how he was. tending his garden before our interview. now this is not all in the book because. unlike a podcast I interview people for. a certain amount of time and then I kind. of condense down what is I'm going to. say about them because I'm driving The. Narrative for the reader mhm but the um.

discussions I think begin. with human questions and then you can. get. to uh what's important and what you're. after and and and also like you I'm I'm. very transparent about what I'm after. right so I I do not like the idea of. gotcha journalism I think it is. incredibly unhelpful I think it's at the. verge of dangerous whenever I read a.

piece in the in any of the Legacy Media. that like sort of is a hit piece against. someone I cringe I think of that person. you know opening up themselves to a. reporter um and then being you know. presented in a way that perhaps they. certainly didn't intend yeah I think. that is I cringe and I and I actually. feel for the journalist who stuck doing. that you know because I think that it.

just takes you down uh a real a real. path of mistrust and sub suspicion. anyways I'm digressing I tell my sources. right up front what I'm doing I told. every single one of them I am writing. this book called nuclear war a scenario. you know and I also asked them is this. fear mongering because that was the the. question in my own mind that led a lot. of the reporting Sean what happens in. this book is like everybody dies and. they die in the most horrific ways I.

describe to you in appalling detail what. happens to humans you know in a nuclear. flash I wanted people to know how. horrific this concept is and I told my. sources that and they were forthcoming. with me which says so much about nuclear. weapons interesting what how did I mean. where did the interest in this come from. are you worried about a nuclear war I am. now um I.

mean all of my books touch upon nuclear. weapons because they. all cover American history since World. War II and in every one of my books so. imagine a 100 plus sources for each. book how many of those people told. me with deep Pride Annie I did what I. did to prevent nuclear World War III.

right so a lot of our really dark dirty. oper even the cia's most dastardly sort. of dark-hearted operations you could say. in the 50s and 60s people I interviewed. who worked on those or the very. non-kinetic operations like in Area 51. which deals with reconnaissance missions. you know spying on the Soviet Union to. try and find out what's really going on. there instead of speculating all of. these people a majority of them said to.

me I did what I did to prevent nuclear. World War II and so in the previous. administration former president Trump. with the rhetoric about you know fire. and fury and against the North Korean. leader I found that like shocking and. rather. unpresidential right because there had. been a precedent not to threaten people. with nuclear weapons it's dangerous it. really is that's not an opinion that's a. fact.

um I like many people began to wonder. what if deterrence failed deterrent just. another synonym for. prevention what if it fails because all. of nuclear war fighting deterrence is. predicated on this psychological. phenomena you who are so interested in. the mind right it is a psychological. phenomena deterrence will hold. deterrence will hold deterrence will. hold old then you have a quote from a.

deputy director at stratcom saying if. deterrence fails it all. unravels that unraveling is this book. well it must be a very realistic. scenario if you're. speaking how do I say this. to you're speaking in Brussels and there. happen to be members of the EU. Parliament listening so let's go over. the scenario what do you think would.

trigger. this a nuclear war could be triggered by. any nuclear launch at the United States. period right so there are now nine. nuclear armed nations in my scenario I. chose a rogue launch from a ballistic. missile an intercontinental ballistic. missile just like it sounds it can. travel from one continent to the other. that's. ICBM um in 30 minutes launch to Target.

30 minutes that's the farthest Target 30. minutes 33 minutes is actually from. Pyongyang 26 minutes and 40 seconds from. Moscow to to uh the East Coast this is. specificity it doesn't change all the. new weapon systems that doesn't change. that is what it was when they were. invented this is just basic physics it. goes you know up and over the Earth and. down okay and so then once you know that.

wait that's all it takes this is not a. 911 scenario where you know someone. Whispers in the president's ears sir the. planes have hit the buildings it's not. that if you're me reporting this. suddenly you learn that the United. States has not only spent trillions of. dollars creating this vast arsenal of. nuclear weapons but defense systems to. un you know to survey other nations so. we have a system of satellites in space.

in geosync one/ tenth of the way to the. Moon a satellite the size of a school. bus. parked over North Korea watching. watching watching watching so when. launch happens we see it in under one. second that's why my scenario goes by. seconds and. minutes it's 72 minutes this book wow. three acts 72 minutes 24 minutes 24.

minutes 24 minutes then you got the. setup at the beginning and nuclear. winter at the end interesting real quick. before so here's what I'd like to do is. dive into the scenario and then talk. about some of the defenses that we have. MH talk about what maybe you weren't. maybe your sources weren't able to tell. you you know I'd like to go maybe a. little more into the scenario but. real quick who are the nine.

Nations us. Russia. China UK. France Pakistan. India Israel North. Korea Iran's not on there yet Iran is. not on there yet right on good for us. but who would you out of those Nations. who would you be the most concerned. about give me your top three North Korea. North Korea North Korea and that's how I.

begin the scenario it's a launch from. North Korea. um one of the most interesting people I. interviewed for this book okay th this. on the cover here is a thermonuclear. bomb called Ivy Mike this is the first. thermonuclear bomb ever exploded in 1952. in the Marshall Islands was a test okay. Hiroshima was 15 kilotons. this is.

10.4. megatons wow okay think about that scale. this weapon takes a nuclear an atomic. bomb acts as its triggering mechanism. inside the. bomb okay I interviewed the man who drew. the plans for this bomb no kidding 93. now Richard. Garwin talk about classified his. information was so classified it was all. no one knew he even drew the plans to.

the bomb he was 24 years old when he. drew them are you. serious does he regret drawing him I. asked him that. question I. said do you wish that you hadn't drawn. the plans for the thermonuclear bomb and. he said to me after a long. pause I wish they couldn't have been. drawn wow and I mean we could do a whole. podcast on what that might mean yeah.

right does it mean Russia would have. drawn them anyways does it means right. but interviewing. Garwin who advised every president since. then on nuclear. weapons you asked about why North Korea. is like the most. dangerous. Garwin so sharp and you know in his we. did all these zooms during covid. um and he presented when I asked him.

what's the what's the biggest threat he. said a Madman sort of Mad King logic is. what he called it a mad man with a. nuclear. Arsenal and he said this French term. which is. called after me the. flood okay right which is like if you. have have a Mad King.

leader um who doesn't care what happens. you know let the let it all flood that's. what Garwin told me he was most afraid. of and so that made me interpret that he. was speaking about North Korea wow. because North Korea does not play by the. rules I mean it's very tricky we could. you know rules of nuclear warfare rules. of nuclear testing we all armed nuclear. armed Nations. inform their.

adversaries of their nuclear tests like. informally formally through you know. different ways but not North. Korea they they just. launch and when you learn what I have. learned and you can learn in from. reading this book what happens inside. nuclear command and control inside those. nuclear bunkers at the Pentagon beneath. stratcom in Cheyenne Mountain the first. 100 50 seconds after a ballistic missile. launches when the satellite in space.

sees the launch it sees the hot rocket. exhaust from its incredible sensor. 1/10th of the weight of the moon sees it. for the next 150. seconds US nuclear command and control. all those assigned to the job are trying. to figure out where that ballistic. missile is. going it's. like I'm glad you brought that up cuz. that's what I was going to ask so the. satellites Advanced enough to know to to.

pick up on the trajectory and where it's. headed and how fast so in seconds the. data goes to the satellite and then it's. relayed to command centers in the United. States there's a facility called the. Aerospace data facility in Colorado that. was only declass its existence was only. Declassified in 2008 okay. and that.

facility then and others NSA you know. there's a numerous intelligence agencies. Military Intelligence agencies that are. then processing that data this is. happening in seconds and interpreting. the trajectory of the missile launch so. I show a map in the book that Garwin. from the and uh professor ameritus at. MIT Ted postal Drew and then let me you. know render and put in the book that. shows so you can see a missile launching. it's a map and then it shows the missile.

and it shows their Centric Rings it's. like at 10 seconds this is where it. might be going at 20 so Guam is in One. Direction Moscow is in that direction. and then you realize if it's going in. that direction San Francisco East Coast. Hawaii okay so as the seconds tick away. the data is determining where that is. headed so this is almost like a it's. like one of hurricanes inbound except a.

lot faster it just Narrows in Narrows in. Narrows in Narrows. in and and by. 150. seconds stratcom or you know the. Peterson Air Force Base the space force. the Aerospace data they know this. ballistic missile is headed toward the. United States 150 seconds normally what. North Korea does is send the satellite. it's uh they're sending it up to space. to drop a satellite so that's one.

different trajectory or they launch into. the Sea of. Japan so in within seconds the the. facilities know it's going into the Sea. of Japan everybody can relax now but in. my scenario at. 1502 boom Oh my God it's coming to the. east coast of the United States and that. is when everything kicks off because the. next step is to inform the president now. there must be a secondary confirmation.

of that nuclear missile on its way to. the United States before the president. launches a. Counterattack that secondary. confirmation takes 8 and 9 Minutes these. are like nerd things that I figured out. in the book and present them to you. hopefully in this incredibly dramatic. manner that you. realize oh my God once a ballistic. missile launch happens nuclear war. begins because a ballistic missile. cannot be redirected or.

recalled none of them not even our own. none none and once President Reagan okay. I mean the lack of information the. president has about nuclear war is. astonishing really president ra and by. the way they have presidential so. Authority so only the president can. launch nuclear war. only the president he doesn't ask. permission of anyone not his seaf not.

his chairman of the Joint Chiefs of. Staff not the Congress certainly not the. Congress this is all happening in six. minutes president's in charge and. presidents most presidents Leon Panetta. confirmed this with me he was the white. house chief of staff under Clinton right. and he said that many presidents just. don't want to know because that again. the Paradox of nuclear war deterrence. will hold don't want to know what they. don't want to know about nuclear.

war that's. frightening So Reagan mistakenly said. during a press conference and I think it. was. 1983 that our submarine launched. ballistic missiles can be recalled they. can't he's the commanderin-chief mhm he. didn't. know do you think it's possible. that technology we have technology to. recall them but they're.

noty it's. impossible and but I love the. astonishment with which. people Express themselves when they. learn these details. because it is astonishing and I had that. same experience even knowing what I know. I know so many other things about. nuclear weapons from different points of. view having having written a number of. books that deal with people who dealt. with nuclear weapons but I never knew.

the command and control ticking clock. scenario hypothetically in the future. until reporting this book and I was I. was shocked at everything I. learned shocked at everything I learned. and it's such bait from wait a minute. they really can't be redirected or. recalled. nope wow I did not know that I did not. know that so so you're saying within 6. minutes.

of something being launched towards us. we're going to we have right we make a. decision whether we're responding and. sending one at them or not yes so think. about it this way when the nuclear if it. just takes approximately 30. minutes the concept that has been put. into play over Decades of strategy of. how to fight a nuclear war is is. that the president must make a.

Counterattack. decision before those nukes. land so this is all going to happen. without the public ever having any idea. Okay the reason is because no one ever. thought of having a nuclear war where. there's like one nuclear missile the. Rogue launch off of gwin's worry is how. my scenario starts and then you see all. these things go wrong the war fighting.

concepts of nuclear war were built with. like Russia's going to send a thousand. missiles the motherload it's often. called and so a strategy kicks in called. use them or lose them very simple to. understand right if we don't use them. we're going to lose them to the Russian. incoming missiles and so that's why the. president. is positioned to make a Counter.

Strike within a window of time before. the missiles. hit so basically so they have 6 minutes. why is the number 6 minutes so okay 30. minutes is the is. the nuclear launch gets detected in. let's say 150 seconds so we got 2 and A2. minutes gone all radical gone. everybody's now getting ready to prepare. the president at the same time the long.

range uh ground radar systems that are. going to give that secondary. confirmation which exist in multiple. places around the world I write about. them quickly in the book in this. scenario if the missiles coming from. North Korea it's going to be the ground. station in Alaska they have this massive. radar of a picture of it in the book. it's like five stories tall it's just. sitting there waiting to see Over the. Horizon that will happen at 8 or n. minutes in the the meantime they have to. get ready to brief the president people.

I have interviewed had to brief the. president when we had false alarms okay. so it's like really this. intense you know suddenly everything is. move the decision tree unfolds in this. radical way and while the individual. leaders the stratcom commander the SEF. the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of. stuff are getting ready to brief the. president they're waiting on the. secondary confirmation but once the. president is told so there is a it's. called the red the red clock is running. and that clock in the Strategic command.

headquarters has s you know is ticking. down until the missiles going to strike. the in this case Washington DC now they. have to get the blue clock running the. blue clock is the. Counterattack okay so you send general. heighton the former another former. stratcom Commander during the fire and. fury rhetoric of trump did an interview. with Barbara star from CNN and she asked. him directly about this like what do we. do if they launch it us and heighten.

said if they launch one missile we. launch one if they launch two we launch. two but if you dig a little bit deeper. as I did and it's all soured in the book. when you're reading you if you ever. wonder how does how does she know this. you can go to the back and you can see. the notes of the documents where it. comes from so the Deep Digger the deeper. digging revealed that if North Korea. launches just one missile at us we're. going to launch. 82 in response 82 82 I.

mean seems a little excessive uh you. know it's called escalate to deescalate. when you look at the size of Korea but. um I mean would it take how many how. many missiles would it take to just. completely obliterate Korea 82 it would. take 80 it would actually take 82 mes no. no you're absolutely right but there is.

a sense of Overkill literally and. figuratively and you know this from your. operating days that like you know it's. called it's like go big or go home I. mean the idea it's there's a concept. with the president that was explained to. me by one of the President Obama's. National Security advisers named John. wolv Thal who sat in the room with the. president when this was being negotiated. okay so so there's a policy in the. United States called launch on warning.

and this exists okay which this is the. this is the idea this is the president. has the authority that if the missiles. are coming he launches MH we launch on. warning we do not wait until we are. hit and wolf stall explained to me that. what that has to do with what's is. what's called a. damage Li damage limitation. responsibility okay everything has like. a a term that is difficult to come out. of the mouth it's why they have acronyms.

for them but this is pointing to your a. why do we have to launch 82 questions so. the president now has a responsibility. to limit further damage that's what his. military is telling him so a strike with. a one Megaton thermonuclear weapon. against Washington DC that I describe it. kills 2 million people Sean. mhm that that that never mind that the. things are about to really take off it.

destroys the Beating Heart of American. government that is like the response is. 82 nuclear weapons the damage limitation. responsibility because all the military. stratcom is thinking at that point is. you're going to let another nuke come in. and so the. 82 we learn. from the those the scientists and the. analysts who have spent a lot of time. looking at this is how to limit the.

damage 82 nuclear weapons could possibly. take out not just like turn the entire. country into a furnace but obliterate. their nuclear command and control their. ability to launch more nuclear weapons. that's why that is set up that way man I. would think 82 nuclear missiles. would I would think the flash alone. would be enough to wipe out the entire. country. it would kill tens of millions of people. not a question but that and and the book.

was read after it was written before it. went into production and publication by. many of my sources and by people who. actually were not my sources but who ran. these scenarios for norat generals I'm. talking. about people who were not in the book so. they didn't have a horse in the race. that they could say to me you're wrong. about this this is too and there were. some tweaks that I did but that was not.

one of them no one said that's too many. we wouldn't do. that how how many do you have any idea. how many nuclear weapons we have how. many so on ready for launch status. meaning they're forward deployed meaning. they can be launched in seconds. or minutes from the president's order.

seconds or. minutes we have. 1,770 the numbers change a little bit. every year Russia has. 1,674 that says nothing about the. thousands more in storage that we have. ready to you know that would could be. pulled out so we have approximately. 5,000 each. why do we need that many nuclear weapons. you must be asking yourself we need that.

many because they have that many and. they need that many because we have that. many and guess how guess how guess what. the number was at the all-time high. which was in. 1986 10,000 70,000. 70,000,000. wow and so the the setup of the book. it's like 5050 Pages or something it's. like how we got here I.

explain how. America sort of had this insane buildup. of nuclear weapons during the 1950s. there was one point in. 1957 this bomb went off in 1952 and the. military-industrial complex just went. baa boom all right at one point we were. building on average five nuclear weapons. a day a.

day and then you're building the weapon. that's just the bombs the WarHeads. You're Building weapon systems because. we have a Triad we don't just have the. icbms in the silos in the ground we have. nuclear armed nuclear powerered. submarines outfitted with submarine. launched ballistic. missiles and then we also have the. bombers so we have a Triad. but during the Cold War we had you know.

we were shooting tactical nuclear. weapons out of cannons Billy wall was. Halo jumping a hand carried portable. nuclear weapon out of an airplane in. case we needed to use it on the. battlefield how do you I mean I know you. don't like to give your opinion and if. you don't want to that's okay how do you. feel about having like 1 what did you. say 1,16 7 1,770 US 1 77 how do you do. you think we need that I mean that's an.

opinion I think that that I own which is. absolutely not I mean look my Lane is as. an investigative journalist relaying you. know reporting the facts doing the. interviews and setting them down on the. record but of course you get to have an. opinion at some point M certainly when. time like times have changed we are back. in the original buildup it was us and. Russia and then China in the early 60s. now there are nine nuclear armed Nations.

many of which are in direct conflict. with one another all of the new. technology artificial intelligence you. know this is crazy it's like the United. Nations Secretary. General recently said We Are One. misunderstanding one. miscalculation away from nuclear. Armageddon mhm and he said we must. reverse course and we must so I was in. Brussels talking about my book because.

people were interested in it what I. learned is because they said to me and. these are disarmament groups right that. they and they said to me your book. condenses in a really dramatic. terrifying way what we have been trying. to convey to world. leaders um for decades with a lot of. information you. just and what we're trying to convey is. this is. madness so so the progress is that we've. gone from 70,000 nuclear warheads to.

there are a total of approximately. 12,500 today amongst the nuclear nine. nuclear armed Nation the disarmament. people will tell you that's 12,500 to. many MH the United Nations recently. created a uh a treaty called I'm going. to mess this up the internation the I. PT NW the international treaty on the. prohibition of nuclear. weapons and their idea is that.

gradually Nations should begin to reduce. their arsenals down to zero. gradually and so the opinion I would. have which seems like a responsible. journalist op that sounds like a really. good idea and the word gradual is. important. because Okay so we've been talking about. the horrors of nuclear war but you can. also talk to proponents of.

deterrence as I do who will tell you we. must have a nuclear Arsenal because the. bad guys do. mhm that's where I would. fall right and by the way that's the. easier it really is the easier quicker. conclusion I mean I feel. like I it would be great if there were. no nuclear weapons however you know we. don't play nicely with one another right.

and so I think the I mean how I'm just. going to go off on a tangent here and. say that the only way look if I were. president. or in charge of this country the only. way I would even. consider eliminating our nuclear weapons. is if we had a defense capability that. was able to eliminate a nuclear any. nuclear weapon on the way here. so well yes the idea is absolutely that. the disarmament idea isn't oh we should.

give up all of our nuclear weapons and. then just believe that North Korea and. Russia and China and Iran or you know. Iran doesn't have the weapon yet all of. these other countries will just give up. their capability that would be Madness. but the disarmament that when we went. from 70,000 down to 12,500 Russia. reduced their. Arsenal you know alongside of. us so r did we really reduce did we. really reduce the Arsenal though or have.

we developed better Maybe not maybe. better is the wrong word have we. developed more powerful and more. devastating nuclear missiles to where we. don't need 70,000 maybe maybe I'm I'm. pulling numbers out of nowhere right now. but just for example maybe maybe one of. today's nuclear warheads is equivalent. to. a 100 MH back in.

1950s uh except for that's not the way. it is okay which is so interesting. because you and I both know the weapon. systems that are you know the kinetic. weapon systems that are used by the. military in ground Wars or air wars have. been advancing like nobody's business as. technology has been advancing the. nuclear weapons are are essentially the. same there not much has changed we.

haven't built any new nuclear weapons. since Clinton was President because he. signed a treaty prohibiting that and. Russia complied so allegedly we do not. build any new nuclear weapons it would. be a massive violation of a treaty all. of our our nuclear weapons are decades. old which is a whole other debate. because now the defense department has. just asked as for I don't I think it's. $900 billion to upgrade the Arsenal.

because it is old and the icbms are old. so this is a it's like a you're suddenly. down the rabbit hole and going wait a. minute how did I wind up here but the. number of nuclear. warheads is simply the number of nuclear. warheads what's what's another. Grim consideration is that. dismantling a nuclear warhead is also a.

dirty process and there's a plant in. Texas that does this which itself is. like a major Target because it has all. the dismantled plutonium and uranium. course so the eyes can glaze over with. like isn't it just easier to have an. arsenal of nuclear weapons that's on. that's the same size as ours which is. why I point to. the people like I can like the Arms.

Control Association who actively work on. these disarmament issues with the United. Nations and the point of a book like. mine is. to make it digestible for the average. person to understand that like this many. nuclear weapons is madness an accident. or a miscalculation could lead to a. nuclear war and it's only going to end. one way almost no one disagrees with. that once nuclear war starts it ends in.

Armageddon and I the scenario takes you. through what happens and then the. mistakes that happen because of. Technology. holes what has been upgraded must be the. transportation of the Warhead that has. to have been upgraded by this point no. really I mean a ballistic missile is. okay so here's how a ballistic missile. Works ready cuz this helped me to. understand it shall I give you the like. 30 second version oh let's do it okay.

so it happens in you can just imagine it. going from like there over the to that. continent to that continent and there's. a little diagram in the book um by the. way the way I know this is because the. first director of DARPA are you familiar. with DARPA I am. okay darpa's created in 1957-58 I can't. remember what it stands for but. basically DARPA is our Advanced weapons. it's our advanced technology weapons. correct defense Advanced research.

projects there we go agency another. mouthful DARPA okay it began in 1957. after the Russians launched. sputnick uh we got caught by scientific. military surprise that was like a bad. thing herb York becomes its first. science director and he wanted to know. cuz the reason Sputnik was the the. reason Sputnik was so threatening it was. a satellite the Russian satellite the.

first one orbiting Earth the reason it. was threatening was because it takes a. rocket to get a satellite into space and. if you can put a rock if you can put a. satellite in space pretty soon you can. put a nuclear warhead on that rocket and. hit the United States that was 1957. that's where everything changed and so. herb. York um wanted to know in seconds and. minutes how long it took for that ice. CBM to get to the United States so he. hired this really the smartest guys in.

the room the Jason scientists about. which there are extraodinary many. conspiracy. theories I interviewed a number of them. including its founder for the DARPA book. so York and I learned this because I. went and looked in the archives at a. library in San. Diego cuz I couldn't get the defense. department to tell me the answer go to. York's papers where a lot of you know if. you go to the scientists papers you find. a lot of. Secrets and sure enough there's this you.

know process yor asking the Jason. scientist there's all these incredibly. cool documents about it figure out tell. me how many seconds and minutes it takes. cuz you forget that people don't know. until they know you know you can be the. smartest guy in the room and you don't. know how ballistic missile works until. someone tells you mhm okay so they tell. York here's how it works three three. phases boost phase the rocket ignites. you can imagine that fire missile goes.

up 5. minutes 5 minutes of fire launching the. missile that's when the satellite can. see it the satellite sees the. fire okay then it burns. out then it has a 20. minute midcourse phase where it's just. moving with the rotation of the Earth. 500 miles above the. Earth and then it has 100 seconds of.

terminal phase a good term for it. terminal phase is the last 100 seconds. the Warhead which has been traveling. because everything else Burns away the. nuclear warhead or plural Warheads. because there might be multiple of them. is now going to re-enter the atmosphere. in a 100 seconds and detonate On Target. that's it. that's it it's so simple and once you. understand that certainly for me as a. reporter then you can kind of understand.

oh that's how an ICBM work so there's no. upgrading to. do right you can maybe make the rocket. motor more. powerful but that's I guess that's kind. of what I'm getting at I mean we just I. can't remember who developed it but we. just saw the new maybe it was in within. the past year the Hypersonic missile who. do you remember who. it's probably Lo's Falcon program I. thought it was yeah I thought it was.

another country but um that's kind of. what I was what I was leaning towards is. you know maybe a little more stealthy. faster less than 30 minutes I don't know. this isn't you know I mean but again. that my job as a reporter is EXA is. exactly to take those. questions demystify them right and. definitely not take the approach of like. you know you don't know which so many so. much of society kind of I think.

functions that way and prohibits people. from asking really basic questions yeah. there's no such thing as a dumb question. yeah I okay because then once you know. it you know it but but like Hypersonic. people talk about hyper we have. hypersonics well a Hypersonic goes. approximately mach five okay ballistic. missiles go mock 20 okay okay so the. ballistic missile is such a G it's such. like ending it's such a Doomsday. Machine you can have hypersonics this is.

you know this is like Warfare that is. non-nuclear nuclear war is in a case by. itself which is why we're at this. incredibly threatening moment right now. because nuclear war is coming out of the. or nuclear weapons the use of nuclear. weapons is coming out of the mouth of. world leaders. and the nuclear war used to be the Red. Line in the.

Sand and yes if someone decides to marry. a nuclear warhead onto a. Hypersonic. missile you know Hypersonic missile will. take an hour where a ICBM will take 30. minutes but it's mixing as soon as. you're talking about tactical nuclear. weapons it's. just the worst possible scenario because. I know I can tell you from looking at. one of the only Declassified nuclear war. games called proud.

profit and I write about it in the book. and I show you what a Declassified look. paper looks. like no matter that war game showed us. two weeks in. 1983 ordered by President Reagan it. showed us that no matter how nuclear war. begins it ends in nuclear. Armageddon everybody in nuclear command. and control knows that everyone knows. that there is no such thing as a limited.

nuclear. war that's. terrifying it can sometimes feel like. TMI. right that it's almost. easier to just not. know and also like a lot of the war. fighting Concepts you have on these. walls right which involve humans are so. much easier in a way to think about to.

talk about to discuss to wonder about. nuclear weapons are so abstract there's. no battle for Chicago battle for New. York it's. just it's just literally push button. Warfare mhm why do we why do why is that. okay I mean I don't think it's uh. I don't think it's okay I think mean I.

personally feel like it's a necessity. that we have to have it. because our adversaries have it unless. we have some type of defense system that. can disarm destroy whatever nuclear. warhead has headed our way before it. reaches destination mhm do we have that. capability so now it gets really. depressing when I tell you about the. interceptor missile capability because. you will hear people say uh oh we we we.

have like a Iron Dome you know we read. we both read the news and we saw what. happened when Iran lobbed missiles. including ballistic missiles at Israel. and they were intercepted right those. are short range and medium range. missiles totally different story than. trying to shoot down a long range. ballistic missile also called a. strategic missile that what I told you.

about that 30 minute Arc 500 miles up in. space you're trying to shoot that down. that's where Interceptor phase happens. don't we have some sort of space weapon. that could initiate that instead of. shooting up at it we do not we have. 44. landbased Interceptor missiles 44. people have asked me like maybe we have. secret a secret arsenal we do not we.

have how can you be so. sure you know maybe secretary Panetta is. lying to me he hey I don't think so we. have for I mean we have. 44 Interceptor missiles Russia has. 1,670 on it doesn't even make sense it. doesn't even make sense why we would. only have 44 when the when the. adversary's arsenals are so much bigger. than 44 well it might have to do with.

this okay when you can look at the. numbers and the cost of the of the. program which I tell you about the. Interceptor missiles. now the success rate on those. Interceptor missiles of which we have 44. is between 40 and. 55% the success rate and right now that. program is on strategic pause which is a. euphemism for oh so we could take. 22 if because inside the war scenario. best caseen inside the Warhead is almost.

certainly. decoys that are meant to confuse so. here's how the Interceptor system works. it's basically a mini version of that. giant rocket that is the ICBM and it. inside of its nose cone it has the apply. named EXO atmospheric kill vehicle. that's what it's called it's 40. lb it's not a warhead because it doesn't.

have any explosives in it it's just an. object 140lb object that is going so the. the interceptor missile fires up it's. communicating with its ground with its. sensor systems that's guiding it and. it's going to now try and hit the. missile the Warhead moving through midc. phase at 14,000 miles an hour 500 miles. up in. space it's going to try to hit.

it that the EXO atmospheric kill vehicle. is going at 20,000 mph the missile. defense agency spokesperson says yes. it's like hitting a bullet with a. bullet wow damn near. impossible and there's no spatial. technology. wow it's illegal to put nuclear weapons.

in space as per the treaties as it. should. be and I'm not this's one spoiler alert. I'm not going to give away but um in the. third Act of the book North Korea. unleashes a nuclear warhead it has. flying in space already in space. disguises a. satellite a techn ology that is actually. capable and that North Korea has. expressed intention of having whether it.

really has it we don't. know and. that unleashes a new kind of Mayhem I'm. going to make you read the book to learn. about but just when you thought it was. bad it gets really bad so you definitely. don't want nuclear weapons in space. perfect I didn't necessarily mean. nuclear weapons I meant something to. disable a nuclear weapon that is in. mid-flight in space like maybe a laser. or something some sort of some sort of.

new technology that we don't know yet. but in this you know back to the you. mentioned a war game uh I think that the. rean administration had put together so. just for the uh I want to dive into that. and so just for the audience a war game. is. basically a madeup scenario but a. realistic scenario that they put and it. kind of shows the probability of what. the outcom would look like and so they. do this with all a lot of countries do. this and and this we do this with a.

multitude of scenarios cyber attacks. nuclear warfare and I mean regular. regular Warfare so what did the ad what. did the Reagan Administration uncover. with that war game The Proud. Prophet so also they do hundreds of. these a year like if you read stratcom. you know discussions with Congress as I. do you can interpret how many of these. nuclear war game how many of these war. games are going on.

um nuclear war games because stratcom. wouldn't be doing other. operations so there's there's a they're. happening all the time and they they're. incredibly classified meaning we just. they don't get Declassified but this one. proud profit 83 war game got declass. nuclear war game got Declassified and I. show you in the book it's literally all. blacked out it's redacted you've seen. docents like that it's just all black. there's maybe like one word you know. aftermath or you know buildup everything.

else and so you might say well what's. the point of releasing this how can we. get any information it's all. redacted we get the information from a. civilian. scientist Professor who was on that war. game named Paul Bracken he's a professor. at Yale now okay and once it was. Declassified like 10 years ago it. allowed Bracken to speak about it.

generally before that he couldn't say. anything you know about you know your. your the classification. requirements but then suddenly because. it was Declassified he could speak about. it in a general Manner and he wrote in. his own. book what I just conveyed to you that no. matter how nuclear war so they there it. was a two- we long program the SE SE. like the highest ranking people in. military nuclear command and control got.

together and gained out these different. scenarios according to Professor Bracken. they you know NATO was involved NATO. wasn't involved tactical weapons are. involved tactical weapons not inv China. gets involved and what Bracken said was. no matter. how nuclear war. begins it only ends in nuclear. Armageddon M and his exact words was. that everyone left the war game very. depressed and so I think I pull the veil.

back on some of this that and it's. almost like a little bit of our. experience communicate the nuclear war. conundrum is so complex and tightly. wound it was it began with the generals. and the Admirals at the Pentagon in the. 1950s working from an idea that nuclear. war could be fought and won. which it itself is insane the original. nuclear war plan against the Soviet.

Union that I write about in the book was. going to kill 600 million people wow 600. million. people how can you have a plan like that. and not call it Mass. extermination that's how it began that. was a long time ago the Soviets were the. big bad threat no one's doubting that. it's different it's a different world. that we live in now mhm why do we. have why have we not.

acknowledged that what began as. Madness will likely end in Madness. unless all of these issues are. addressed. money you mean there's more money to. build more. weapons mhm I think we're. I think we're at a new.

Crossroads that's completely different. but maybe has some similarities with AI. okay do. you keep going I'm interested what you. have to say well I mean there's a lot of. fear of what AI could develop into and. basically you know gets to the point. where it makes Humanity completely. irrelevant and. so it's it's it's it's a dangerous game. we're playing I don't think anybody. really knows the extent of what we might. experience if this keeps keeps on you.

know with the brain chips with with. everything and so it's another. it's once it's out of the bag it's not. going back in and I feel like that's. where we're at with AI is where we were. with nuclear war it's the Pandora's Box. idea yes which kind of begs the. question okay so how about doing. something about it and I know we all. have busy lives and that is part of the.

you know no one can stop what they're. doing and suddenly uh become an expert. on existential threats per se so we talk. about it and. we you know pontificate what can be done. but we should remember that there are. powers that be that are paid to deal. with these issues in our own government. MH and so the days are over where you. could just. trust the.

government to be. doing the how do I say that right yeah I. know where you're going we should be. able to trust the government to have our. to be doing things in our best interest. yeah right like if you watch the. propaganda films of the 50s having to do. with nuclear war right I. mean and you see like a housewife with a. tiny waist and you know curers maybe. even making pancakes and then like a. siren goes off and then Jimmy come quick.

and they they Duck and Cover and that's. going to protect you against a nuclear. bomb and everybody went okay I mean. those days are. over but then you kind of I think the. point you're raising is what kind of. like version of that are we dealing with. today I I think it's AI I mean it's. happening right now you. know xiin ping in China says the first.

the first country that. Masters AI will achieve global. domination and so now you have now you. have all these people over here that are. worried about I mean I'm conflicted what. do you do China's not going to stop. right they're not going to stop. and so if we stop then we put put. ourselves at a disadvantage but if none. of us stop we put the entire human.

species at a at a at the risk of. becoming irrelevant you know and and. does that make sense of course it makes. sense and it's absolutely on point and. you know you can also throw into that. mix. biology. because okay so here's how I would tie. that together right because you have. biological warfare Fair. threats that. become more threatening more.

existentially threatening with the. introduction of AI I believe perhaps. more so than with the nuclear weapons. right one of the areas I'm going to try. to hold this thought together but it it. ties. so you might say you might say nuclear. weapons could you know AI could get hold. of nuclear. weapons well well maybe and this is. where I'm. either informed or inaccurate I don't.

know. okay what I do know is that from from. interviewing people in cyber command is. that our nuclear weapons are. surprisingly. analog meaning they are not. digital okay so for example I learned in. reporting the book that our subl. ballistic missiles Guide to the targets. by star sighting Sean a little panel.

opens and they use the Stars to guide to. the Target there are other systems in. place and this stuff is very classified. but what is leading is like this ancient. technology that like our hunter gatherer. ancestors used okay um so nuclear. weapons because they happened before the. Advent of the digital age there has been. a concerted effort to make sure they. remain analog so that they can't be. hacked okay okay and these are.

assurances that I have gotten from cyber. command you're just taking somebody at. your at their word at that point because. the documentation is not. Declassified so hold that thought then. you have this idea. that biological weapons used to exist we. used to have we had a program about. biological weapons I wrote about it we. hired the Nazi scientists they built up. our biological warfare program and we.

used to have an. Arsenal and then Nixon made them illegal. so all of the biological weapons were. destroyed we found out Russia was. cheating and they I mean Rat Hole upon. Rat Hole. um so biological weapons are no more. which exist sort of that's the reason. that nuclear disarmament people say we. don't need nuclear Arsenal to keep us. safe because we we were able to say we.

don't need biological weapons to keep us. safe biological weapons have become. taboo we need so the disarm people will. say nuclear weapons should be taboo now. you take AI okay what you're saying. which is really significant to think. about is how does AI fit into the. mix if there is indeed a giant gap on. purpose between AI being able to access. nuclear weapons because it has grown up.

with. that that is one lane of security shall. we say but with the biological. issues that is far more dangerous to my. eye because they didn't grow up together. and AI has the capacity to make. biological weapons and chemical. weapons on paper. does that make sense M because a lot of.

AI is pulling from information in the. public. domain and so far. no student in a basement that we know of. has made a nuclear weapon think about. that mhm no it remains this jealously. guarded recipe. Pakistan got the bomb because they stole. the most people get the bomb because.

they steal. it but Biol biology we have. biological um synthetic biological. situations being made by you know. students in high school because of AI. because what you can program AI make me. a chemical weapon that to me is a. majorly exist existential threat but. again we don't have the language yet. just as Layman or with a little bit of.

knowledge to understand what AI is. really capable of and so you're bringing. up the question should we trust the same. people that said like Duck and Cover and. you'll be safe should that's what you're. saying and that's a very important. question I would say probably not we. should probably not trust them um I mean. I don't you know I don't know once again. this is like the disarming of the nukes. I mean what do what do we do we do we I.

mean what is your opinion what do we do. about the nukes or about AI with. AI I mean I always start by looking at. the. opinions. of people I respect MH and then I start. to kind. of gather more information like why did. they wind up with their opinion. and so one person that comes to mind. when I was St when I was looking at. early AI because a lot of the early AI.

comes from. DARPA. and they have DARPA has always had this. idea so also I think it's important to. make a distinction at least to my eye. between or I do when I think about it AI. artificial intelligence and machine. learning if you're machine learning is. making computers a lot smarter. artificial intelligence is. actually trying to figure out how to.

make a machine. think for that I visited I went to Los. Alamos when I was reporting the. pentagon's brain and visited a Dara. scientist who had a grant to try and. create you know a brain in essence and. he was using the computer that used to. have all the nuclear codes on it it was. really interesting but he explained to. me his name was Dr carrot Garrett Kenyon. and he gave me this analogy where he. said we're so far out from brain from. computers being able to think and I said.

try and just give me a average Jane or. Joe way to understand this and he. said okay think about the the facial. recognition software on your. iPhone right mhm very basic thing you. and I that is machine. learning so he said have your iPhone. look at you and then try to have it look. get you further away and with a baseball. cap or with. sunglasses right so you're kind of.

making it harder for the machine to know. it's. you now this interview we did by the way. was like eight years ago and things have. changed a lot in a frightening. manner then he said to. me the iPhone could definitely not. recognize me across a football field. walking with a baseball cap. on he said my daughter on the other hand. who was I think something like 8 years. old at the time he said my daughter.

knows who I. am across a football field walking with. a baseball capat good and begins running. toward. me that is human. intelligence I mean do you think I I. think I think we've I mean look now. China supposedly. has camera systems. I don't know what you call them I guess. they wouldn't be facial recognition they. would just be they are facial.

recognition yes well I guess what I'm. saying is it can pick up how you walk. gate recognition and so people are. putting rocks in their shoes so that. they walk different wow did you know you. I did not know the the the way to spoof. that they're putting rocks in their. shoes so that they walk different so. that the the the technology doesn't pick. up how they actually walk. Y and they can.

now have systems that can read your. heartbeat I didn't know. that so this gets into tricky my opinion. on this or rather my lots of facts you. know opinion gets into a tricky area. here. because I speak often about the. military-industrial complex not in and I. want to preface this what I'm about to. say about China and all that right which. is. not in a what might be called a.

conspiratorial way per se like the. military industrial complex literally as. a fact-based. military industrial. complex and it is real and it is also. provides a lot of jobs for a lot of. people I often think about this so the. military-industrial complex as a term. from Eisenhower's farewell speech okay. and that's very welln but less.

known is what Eisenhower said as a. follow-up to that in that same speech. which is interestingly something I you I. tell my sources as a principal I work. from would they let me interview them. and most of them say yes on that on. those grounds which is this. that the way in. which America can function as a sort of. peaceful nation and a democratic nation. and a nation that is strong that has a.

strong. defense is through an alert and. knowledgeable. citizenry which is exactly what we've. been talking about this whole time which. is in a way the question for the. original listener asked right how so. what Eisenhower was saying to us is be. alert and be. knowledgeable and so I I think it's. always good to. temper that like if you say I'm being. alert and I'm being knowledgeable in. sort of like a nerdy way then you can I.

can differentiate my I like my. pontificating about what does that mean. and I can see my sort of more paranoid. brain thinking thing right and it just. is it it balances things out but on the. concept of the military-industrial. complex specifically in China. surveillance I want to say this which is. that one way of looking at that which I. would look at because I've done quite a. bit of reporting on it is that it's that. problem of the chicken or egg scenario.

that that when the United States creates. a radical new technology that it's using. for its own defense China follow suit. Russia follow suits and nowhere is that. more specific and more obvious if you. really think about it then what the. United States did during the war on. terror what the government did during. the war war on terror and that is create. these these biometric surveillance. systems which you know to go after bad.

guys in Iraq in Afghanistan fingerprint. technology find the bomber not the bomb. a great idea if you you're just going to. take out you if you're going to go after. the the bomb you're just going to be. think about that's what your teams were. doing mhm but as soon as you can go. after the bomber you're cutting off the. head of the. snake but the biometric surveillance. system got out of control before you. knew it perhaps because of the military. industrial.

complex the Pentagon had decided Well. let's just get Biometrics on everybody. so it went from do you know about this a. little bit it went I'll do I'll keep it. short because it can be like too much of. a rabbit hole but it went from finding. the fingerprints on the bomber to let's. get fingerprints on every single person. in Iraq 85% of the population was the. goal and then they did that in. Afghanistan these are facts mm this is. like David Petraeus fact. okay and. so the idea was we're going to have this.

colossal database of. everybody which used to be considered an. FBI criminal concept MH we're just going. to have this on everybody and then that. way we're going to know if you're a bad. guy or a good guy and it got totally out. of control and it happened too fast and. there was so much money being made that. it just became a. deluge of systems and China copied that. China did not have that system of. systems until we introduced it to them. and because China is great at stealing.

our intellectual property that is. precisely what happened and then China. because it's a communist country and it. does not have any of the same rules to. abide by just went berserk with it and. said we're going to now do they have a. system called physicals for all. physicals for all what a great euphemism. what it means is we're going to get your. DNA and that's what they are in the. process of. doing having DNA fingerprints Iris.

scans gate monitor of. everybody so it's it's becoming a. massive police state if it wasn't. already it is now it's a Technology. based police state but remember my point. in that would be the defense. department set that. up you could say to happen. or is that military-industrial. complex it's a good point I've not.

thought. of it's a great. Point what do you. think I think it's the Eisenhower quote. like an alert and knowledgeable. citizenry right and and also a little. bit if you pick your battles because you. could you can become subsumed with this. is just a horrible you know you could. really. um and you want to enjoy your life and. be a good parent and write your books or. do your. podcast so and then I look to history to.

say okay oh that's right this has always. been going. on I do believe money money needs to be. spent to keep the economy going but. there could be a restructuring of the. military industrial. complex in a manner that. suits the. livelihood and the future yeah I agree.

with you on that let's um let's take a. quick break when we come back I'd like. to see what it looks like here in the us. if we do endure a nuclear. [Music]. attack it's not. pretty when I first started this whole. podcast thing an online store was about. as far from my mind as you can get and. now most of you already know this but.

I'm selling vigilence Elite gummy bears. online we actually have an entire merch. collection that's coming soon and let me. tell you it is so easy because I'm using. a platform that is extremely. userfriendly and that's Shopify Shopify. is the global Commerce platform that. helps you sell at every stage of your. business what I really like about. Shopify is it prompts you all the things. that you want to do with your web store.

like connect your social media accounts. write blog posts just have a Blog in. general Shopify actually prompts you to. do this you want people to leave reviews. under your. items you can do that on Shopify it's. very simple Shopify helps you turn. browsers into buyers with the internet's. best converting checkout 30 6% better on. average compared to the other leading. Commerce platforms Shopify is a global.

Force for millions of entrepreneurs in. over 175 countries Empower 10% of all. Ecommerce platforms here in the United. States you can sign up right now for $1. a month it's shopify.com Shan that's. allower case go to shopify.com Shan now. to grow your business no matter what. stage you're in that shop ii.com. Shan fabric by Gerber Life is term life.

insurance designed by parents for. parents and has been trusted by millions. of families just like yours for over 50. years I trust fabric to have what I need. to protect my family thinking about. getting life insurance Now's the Time. your kids are young you're healthy lock. in low rates with fabric by Gerber Life. my family's Financial Security is is. always my number one priority and it. should be yours too fabric was designed. by parents for parents and trusted by.

millions of families like yours they. have over 1,800 five-star reviews on. trust pilot with a rating of excellent. having term life insurance for myself is. crucial because I can rest easier. knowing my family is taken care of even. if I'm not there that's where fabric by. Gerber Life comes in join me and. thousands of parents who trust fabric to. protect their family apply today in just. minutes at meat fabric.com that's. meetfabric. docomond policies issued by Western.

Southern life insurance company not. available in certain States prices. subject to underwriting and health. questions all right Annie we're back. from the break we're getting ready to. dive into what it would look like if we. do get hit I just I just looked uh back. at my notes though and I just want to. cover one more thing back to the back to. the 6 minutes for the president to make. a. decision don't you if you talked how do.

I put this I would think that a lot of. these decisions have already been. predetermined if there's only nine. Nations us included so eight other ones. and then I can't remember how many are. our allies I know Russia China Korea is. there another one that's Pakistan. Pakistan questionable yeah okay. definitely questionable but um you moved. in there right yeah. so so I would think we would definitely.

have a lot of. predetermined decisions made if one of. those four countries launched towards us. so so the reason I'm bringing this up is. for the audience more to to at least I I. would think that there would be. contingency plan after contingency plan. after contingency plan plan on what were. to happen if one of those countries. launched a nuclear weapon towards us and.

so that I I think it's important to know. that the president isn't just making a. going through a a raw decision process. from from beginning to end in 6 minutes. on what he's going to do would you agree. with that absolutely okay great so let's. talk about the football okay because. there is not time you're AB abolutely. right for the seaf to say okay sir we. think there's no time for that you're. talking about a six-minute window I mean.

that's like making a pot of coffee okay. that is a tiny amount of time and so the. football do you know what the football. is I do okay which you want to describe. it the football is the Emer also known. as the emergency Satchel it's this. leather bag that is always with the. president any photograph you look at the. president if you can see around him or. you will see the mill Aid the military. aid who is the person assigned to carry. the. football 247 365 with the president it.

is always with the president Lum mer. letti the former director of The Secret. Service told me a great story about the. football when I said is it really always. with the president he said it is always. with the president he was before he was. director of Secret Service he was um the. head of President Clinton's detail and. he told me about going going to Syria. with Clinton to see President Assad the. current president's father and that they.

got into the. elevator and you know one of Assad's. guys was like no right like about the M. Aid and Lou said it was like a. standoff there was no way they were. going to let the president ride in the. elevator without the football that's how. significant it is it is with him on all. time inside the football are two key. items one is an ability for the. president's identity to be.

confirmed with and by those in the. nuclear bunker beneath the Pentagon. which is called the National military. command center so the president has like. a a a card a laminated card inside his. wallet known as the biscuit it has. information on it which matches up to. the information in the football that. that is a literally a call and response. it is a verbal call and response this is. not digital this is not.

biometric it's old school and the other. important item in the football is the. black. book that's not its official name but. that's what it's called and the. classified historian at Los Alamos told. me that the reason it's called the black. book is it is because it involves so. Much Death. the black. book is another jealously guarded secret. what is in the black book almost no one.

has that has seen the contents of it has. spoken of it once aill Aid referred to. the cont in an interview with. Smithsonian Magazine described the. contents of the black book and he. described it like a Denny's menu which. gets us to how does the president choose. his targets. so the countries that are perceived as. enemies nuclear armed enemies who might.

launch at us are broken down into this. Denny menu type. document with options for the president. to choose from in that six-minute window. really. fast I interviewed for the book one. person who had has actually seen the. contents of the black book his name is. Ted postal. and he's the one with Richard Garwin who. drew the map for me about the launch and. the missile and Postal in the 80s was.

the chief advisor to the Navy about. nuclear. missiles that was his job in. the80s and so he worked on some of the. statistics the the information about. potential. targets but what he told me was this. very frightening story about the black. book which is he which gets to your. question about like the president making. a decision he said they would work on. all these different scenarios kind of.

let's consider the 82 missile scenario. we're talking about why you would get to. that how you would get to that how you. would determine where the CIA thinks. North Korea's nuclear command and. control centers may be operative word. thinks we have no real Intelligence on. them and then postal told me and of. course North Korea wasn't involved in. the ' 80s CU they didn't have nuclear. weapons yet but postal told me that he. had another experience which was another. day he was at the.

pentagon look and he and he became privy. to the black book kind of like by. accident it was out and he looked at it. and what freaked him out his. words was that he said the difference. between what they had been working on. with these very precise. calculations about why different targets. should be chosen and what. resulted were almost not.

[Music]. recognizable and he couldn't can you say. that again I'm sorry yeah okay so like. they nerded out like you can imagine. guys with pencils and rulers and going. what are the Targets in said enemy. Nation what are the where are their. nuclear command and control facilities. that we would want to take out in a. nuclear strike that's what the you know. they big. industries that their bunkers their. version of the stratcom bunker their. version of the Pentagon they had they.

kind of nerd out around all the details. to get down pair down what the targets. are and how many bombs you're going to. put on a Target because you never put. just. one you know this from ground Warfare. right so but what postal said is when he. went over to the Pentagon and was. looking at the black book The Denny's. menu if you. will that he was shocked he actually. said he was freaked. out at the disconnect between them in.

other words they had just been reduced. to option A and A you know there was not. information the the president wouldn't. realize you're striking a city that's. going to kill 15 million people it's a. Playbook and I got the sense it's. numerical or Alpha numerical again. that's classified information but that's. the sense I got it's like a 324b I'm.

using that kind of as an analogy but. maybe even literally so in other words. that is what they're not the president. doesn't go okay I'm going to hit and. they're not cities with. humans it's a look I don't know anything. about nuclear warfare that's I'm a. ground guy mhm that's it it I don't do. nuclear strategy or anything like that. but I will say.

that combat planning. strategy. contingencies is very much like a. football game you call a. play and no nobody that has not been. briefed understands what that play is so. if it's a if it's a a. a did you say and numeric or or alpha. numeric so so if it's Alpha. 52 then they go to the everybody.

everybody who is read in knows what. Alpha 52 is in that scenario that that. scenario plays out and and absolutely. does that make sense absolutely I agree. with I think that's the best analogy. I've heard from what I. understand now I could be wrong because. I haven't had anyone who's seen the. contents of the black book tell me. precisely they've only spoken in.

metaphor because they can't and very. very few people have seen it yeah so it. would be I mean I would imagine it would. be very similar to a to to a quarterback. when he calls a play everybody on that. team knows exactly what's going to. happen where they're going to go what. they're going to do what route they're. going to run where the ball's going to. land you know and that's and so in the. black book on the Denny's menu if he. calls you know Alpha.

26 all the key players know what's going. to be struck what's you know where. they're going to be how long it's going. to take to get there what countries are. going to all of that is already it's. already been predetermined it's a. predetermined Playbook. of of possible scenarios and and you're. exactly probably right right and so then. imagine this the President says well. what is Alpha 52 you whatever the thing.

and now you the six-minute window the. clock is ticking inside. stratcom the bunker beneath off at Air. Force Base which is one of three of the. three nuclear bunkers that are Central. to this in this moment in time as this. is happening there's one in Cheyenne. Mountain there's one beneath off at out. air Fort base and there's one at the. Pentagon and the president wherever he. may be is trying to discern this black. book mhm and he's being advised so at.

stratcom there is an identical black. book it's in a safe it gets the safe. gets open the black book gets taken out. they're identical so that they know. exactly they're talking about the same. thing there is a target officer who will. who's prepared to brief if the president. has any questions and there's also a. weather officer that's going to tell him. how many people are going to die maybe. if there's time and if he ask that. question from the radioactive fallout in.

Centric circles going out from Ground. Zero each Ground Zero but again how much. time do you have in a six-minute window. and imagine what's going through the. president's mind in the scenario that I. write I have the president ask a number. of key. questions um which were which I learned. questions I learned from interviewing. people that they are worried the. president or that they think the. president might ask like I'll give you. an example of a key question the.

president in my scenario. ask how do we know there's a nuclear. warhead in the nose coming in that. ballistic missal and you know what the. answer is they. don't and then the next answer is you. know where where the president might. then Wonder perhaps someone is you know. tricking me into starting a nuclear war. and the answer is no one sends a. ballistic missile unless they know we. are going to send the motherload in.

response yeah which is brings us back to. the Paradox or The Catch 22 of. deterrence so you could use this as an. argument which is why no one would be. insane enough to ever launch a nuclear. missile at the United States because. they would be. obliterated or you can use the argument. that that's ridiculous how can more. nuclear weapons make us more safe I mean. we shouldn't be so we shouldn't put so.

much weight on that I mean we just going. down to a lower level I mean look at. suicide. bombers they're they had no problem. recruiting suicide bombers you know in. the global war on terrorism and so all. you would need is somebody with that. mindset. to get into government and become a. world leader I mean. not an easy task but not impossible not. impossible and in. 2024 certainly more likely than in 1952.

mhm on top of that going back to the the. decision-making of the president I'm. sure he would. have if it happened I'm sure he would. have advisors that would say something. along the lines of this is what this is. what's happening right now these are our. top three these are our top three. actions that we would recommend that you. take here they are you know and that is. the job of the advisor which one would.

you like us to do you know and uh so. he's not he's not reading the whole. Denny's. menu you're absolutely right and and and. so you also have to imagine what would. be going through the president's mind. who from what I understand has not. thought this through has not been part. of the these you know war games. scenarios has been concerned with other. issues both domestic and abroad suddenly. new to this you know asking questions.

like is this a test and his advisors. knowing it is not a test and his advisor. being much more aware of how this is. going to end. meaning you know having war gamed these. situations out but then you can learn. about a concept as I did which is. something called jamming the president. which is what is understood would happen. at A Moment Like This whereby the. military.

advisers almost universally would be. advising him to escalate to deescalate. to hit them with an extraordinary amount. of. force and that is a natural military. mindset particularly if you are attacked. you know this right and so in the. scenario that I report that's where. things go Ary because of some. technological holes in the system and.

that is why Russia gets involved. interesting well let's get into this. scenario M what does it look like if. we're. hit a nuclear. bomb. explodes with a flash of light of X-ray. light that is. so powerful and. and hot it is impossible to comprehend. it is. 180 million.

de that's the temperature at the center. of the Sun Time. 5 really times. five and so the thermonuclear flash sets. everything on. fire depending on the size of the bomb. in the scenario that I write it's 3 mil. out is that a fact is that the biggest. yes that's not the biggest bomb but that.

is a fact and so by the way like when I. write about these horrific details about. what happens to people in third degree. burns and wind ripping skin off people's. faces you know 9 miles out um limbs. being ripped off you know the sucking. motion that happens the the blast wave. that's like a bulldozzer the buildings. that come down the when I write all. those details those are not out of Annie. Jacobson's imagination those are sourced. from a primary document called the. effects of nuclear weapons which is a.

600 and some odd page book it's also. called Army pamphlet number. 50-9 if I'm remembering correctly and. that began with the Hiroshima and. Nagasaki bombings the effects of nuclear. weapons on buildings and people and as. the tests were done. we conducted atmospheric tests in the. Pacific and also in Nevada at the test. site as the tests were done defense.

scientists were constantly. measuring the effects that nuclear. weapons have on things and. people and the people substitutes were. animals and they measured these with a. specificity that's just. stunning and that's a polite word for. Gruesome and I use those details in the. book and I Source them again in notes so.

you know then you get to learn as a. reader oh wait a minute how does the. Pentagon know that a pine needle will. catch on fire six miles out from Ground. Zero you know spontaneously combust and. start more fires oh because these have. been studied 6 miles out so what so does. that mean the the blast radius. of The Flash can can be up to 6 miles. the BL the people can go blind up to 50. mil out if they're looking in the.

direction of the bomb 50 miles 5 and the. way we know you know the defense. department would put rabbits and cages. and fly them you know 50 Mi out from. this bomb and put their you know it's. very Clockwork Orange mhm to determine. the effects on the. retina um a one Megaton bomb that I have. hit the Pentagon and I I use the. Pentagon as a Target by the way again. that's not just because it's my. imagination but because many people that.

I interviewed told me that a bolt out of. the blue attack against Washington is. what Washington fears. most and so a one Megaton bomb that. detonates over the Pentagon creates a. ball of fire pure fire that is. 5,700 fet in diameter that's a little. over a mile again like the specificity. of these numbers are from defense. scientists a ball of fire so nothing.

Remains Not a cricket not a no no. cellular life in. that and then you have this blast Wave. It's called a steeply fronted blast wave. and it pushes out and it bulldozes down. metaphoric every all physical Bridges go. down down you know um Stone splits apart. steel lead.

melts 10 miles out streets become like. molten lava so if you survived you're. suddenly you know sucked. into a lava. Street um thirdd degree burns on. everyone anyone in a Subway is going to. do if they are you know 10 miles out. they're going to die of. asphixiation so 10 m would 10 miles be. the let's talk immediate death.

mhm 10 miles well there's there's ra. there's like three rings that I write. about mhm specifically you know in their. diameters and they go out up to the. Washington DC zoo is kind of the edge. where all the animals you know have. their skin hanging off of them sorry. it's dark it's true um. and so then you have to think about you. know you have all these people dead all. these people now with that are far out.

as far as 10 miles out with third degree. burns fourth degree burns did you even. know there was such a thing as a fourth. degree burns third degree burns require. a specialized. bed there are like 10 in Washington then. they've now all been obliterated in this. scenario people die of you know blood. loss imagine the projectiles from this. there are several hundred mile an hour. winds accompanying that steeply fronted. blast.

wave um the buildings topple over and. become. Rubble we haven't even spoken to the. back that no first responder can go in. there for 72 hours by then the world's. over the situation I write an appalling. detail because I want you to see how. horrific you would hope you were in. inside the fireball because the further. out you are the worse it is when you. think about this the mushroom cloud that.

we've all seen. right that mushroom stem and the cloud. is made. up of the remnants of people who have. turned into combusting. carbon that is the detrius of. civilization that's just one nuclear. bomb. so people get to see that every nuclear.

weapon is really a mass extinction. weapon. because when you consider the black you. know we're talking about the ring out 10. shall we say 10 10 miles. out what will then because all these. fires have started now from The Flash. the situation comes a mesocyclone of. fire is how it's described they're in a. matter of minutes or hours there will be.

a 100 mile radius of fire burning. because there's no First. Responders in a. nuclear attack I learned this from. Obama's FEMA. director a guy called Craig Fugate who. did all these on the record interviews. with me and described to. me how horrific a nuclear war he was so.

candid I went back are you sure you said. this this this and this it's quoted in. the book you know that he said the FEMA. does something called population. protection planning so earthquakes. floods hurricanes when these happen FEMA. at the ready to help the people. population protection planning and. Fugate said to me after a nuclear strike. there is no population protection. planning because everyone will be. dead you're on your own I said what do.

you suggest people do and he said hope. that you stocked Pedialite and don't. forget your. morals that kind of. cander. from that level of a of an. individual made me realize people people. leave. office and become civilians again become. parents again and grandparents and. estimate and they suddenly realize like.

nuclear war is. insane we cannot have a nuclear war mhm. mhm what do you have you talked to any. of your sources about likely targets. other than. DC. every every city in America is is a. target every airport in America is a. target every industrial base in America. is a. target maybe not for the Rogue launch.

that happens in my scenario in the. beginning but as I describe in the book. a series of events happen should I jump. forward to like what really goes wrong. sure okay. so we have a really great satellite. system Russia does not they pretend they. do. there's is called Tundra I told you ours. can measure you know.

inches from 22,000 miles up theirs. pretends to their system is so flawed. that it. sees clouds and. sunlight as exhaust as fire sometimes. now I sourced this not just from. American. experts but from from people who. are experts on Russian nuclear command. and control including a guy called Pavo.

podvig who's who studied in Moscow who's. the liaison to the UN for Russian. nuclear forces so he know he would be. prone to giving you a different opinion. maybe than and he even conceded that the. tundra system is deeply. flawed and so Russia can't see Russia. could easily misinterpret. what it's what it is seeing happening. we're talking about once the missiles. start flying once America the American.

president learns that he has to make a. Counterattack and our our missiles are. now flying and as Leon Panetta said to. me you're right no one thinks about mad. chemistry Mutual assured destruction. chemistry once the missiles are flying. and that's where the mistakes happen so. in the scenario a very serious. flaw arises which is that us icbms do. not have enough. range if we are sending icbms at North.

Korea they have to fly over. Russia an actual fact confirmed by. Panetta by the. way they have to fly over Russia think. about the State of Affairs between. Russia in the United States right now I. don't believe the two presidents have. spoken in years. during the War General Millie couldn't. get his in the early days of the war. chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

General Millie couldn't get his Russian. counterpart on the phone when there was. an. errant erroneously reported missile. attack against. Poland couldn't get him on the phone. imagine a scenario where nuclear. missiles are flying and Russia sees. missiles. coming it would interpret at themselves. not even if you could get the president. on the phone and say trust us they're. going to go over you not at.

you and so Russia makes a decision to. launch and when Russia launches it sends. a thousand nuclear weapons does that. mean North Korea's nuclear weapons would. also have to fly over. Russia North Korea's nuclear weapons fly. over Russia and China but they do not. have the same. technology that we have according to my. understanding of the technology to see. neither China nor Russia to see in real.

time the way that we see in real. time any ballistic missile launch. anywhere on the globe only reason I'm. bringing that up is context yeah. because if they do have somewhat of a. capability. and North Korea launches a nuke at the. us and it does have to fly over China. and Russia at least in our response they.

would have some context and they could. go okay we did just see one we just saw. one fly this way now we're going to see. one head West you know and and so it. wouldn't be 100% in the. blind which is a could that is a that is. a possibility now with that being said. you're also you know there would have to. be some type of communications and if we. don't have communications and we can't. we can't even get our counterpart uh on.

the. phone. then and here's the fundamental problem. with that in terms of long thinking. which is that America's first nuclear. war plan. against Russia was a preemptive Nuclear. Strike okay a preemptive Nuclear Strike. Russia has been paranoid ever since. maybe with good reason because this is. how an origin story that we would do a.

preemptive Nuclear. Strike um I have heard some leading. experts on Putin including Fiona Hill. who. advised multiple presidents so she's. completely. nonpartisan talk about. how the invasion of. Iraq profoundly impacted Putin's. thinking about the United States about. regime.

change about a preemptive attack and how. dangerous that. is um so it's not just long history that. someone might be thinking of it's short. history more immediate history and. so another example of how paranoid. Russia has been for decad. decades is its system that it created. called the Dead Hand okay it's the the. the lit the literal name of it is.

perimeter it was or this perimeter. system Dead Hand was originally reported. by a Washington Post reporter named. David Hoffman um like in 1999 when he. first learned about it right after the. wall had gone down before we were back. to this nuclear threat posturing but the. way the Dead Hand Works is like this. Russia was so par paranoid that the. United States was going to launch a. preemptive nuclear attack against it. during the Cold War that it created a. dead hand system what is that it's kind.

of like it sounds they created a system. whereby ground. sensors would be able to. determine nuclear weapons hitting. nuclear bombs hitting the Russian soil. and if they weren't hearing from the. nuclear command and. control so the idea being that the. nuclear command and control had been. taken out in this preemptive nuclear. strike the Dead Hand.

system would launch all of Russia's. remaining nuclear weapons were like. which were like 30,000 at the time okay. would launch all of them without even. needing a hand to push the button hence. the name the dead. hand so it set up a system. to launch no matter what even if we're. all. dead and the idea behind it. is kind of part of deterrence like don't.

you dare launch at us or even our own. Dead Hand will get you and so when you. think about. that you realize there's a long history. of Suspicion in Russia and even more. terrifying is I have heard in defense. circles and I haven't been able to. confirm it but I have heard that even. now the US defense department is. thinking of creating some kind of a dead. hand equivalent because allegedly Russia. never got rid of that.

system that's where AI would become a. real problem yeah that's a great point. that is a great point the dead AI. hand wow that's a great Point let's. let's keep with the let's go back into. what life looks like okay so we. it sounds like excuse me if I'm mistaken. it sounds like immediate Devastation is. about 10 mile radius 100 miles you're.

going to feel effects. mhm what happens after. that so in the. scenario I have the president making. this. decision the BL you know the six-minute. window is upon him they're waiting for. minute 89 to have the secondary ground. confirmation from the from the ground. radar systems that happens sir it's.

confirmed the ICBM is coming to. Washington then I. have a situation unfold between the. Secret Service and nuclear command and. control based on interviews I did with. Secret Service once I realized wait a. minute the secret service's job is to. protect the president as soon as the. Secret Service learns the the special. agent in charge the sack in charge of. the president learns that there's a. missile coming at Washington he's moving. the. president period.

non-negotiable the secret service has a. element a a cat team counter assault. team they're kind of like the. president's version of ground branch in. essence a lot of guys go back and forth. so the counter assault team gets called. in by the. sack within the counter assault team. there's an even tinier group called The. Element an element is a three-man team a. three-man team is now going to move the. president on Air Force One out of the.

White Hall out of the White House back. off right so it's a standoff who do you. think is going to win who has better. equipment we. do the the cat team wins they move the. president much to the Chagrin of the. stratcom commander and everybody else. who wants that order while they are. moving the president and there's a. problem because I learned. that getting a little into the weeds. here but I'm going.

the there's an EMP which will happen. with any nuclear you're familiar with. that Marine one is EMP proof for. listeners it's an electromagnetic pulse. that could very easily fry the. electronic system on Marine one causing. it to crash so the sack needs to make. sure there are parachutes that they can. tandem jump the. president they're not in Bine one a. detail I learned they probably are now. but they weren't then so the element has.

to swing by the White House Office grab. the parachutes they need one for the. mill Aid one for the guy who's going to. jump the president and one for the. sack they get them they get into Marine. one it's a while that is happening I. have in the scenario a second ballistic. missile strikes a nuclear power plant in. California a sub launched ballistic. missile now I had Ted postol I'm.

pointing to this and Richard Garwin. discuss with me whether or not it was. plausible whether or not North Korea can. actually get a submarine up to the west. coast of the United States because we. know China and Russia can that's a fact. you learn that later in the. book Ken North Korea Ted postal believes. that they can Garwin says he doesn't. think they can yet I wanted to have that. kind of a debate available for.

readers to think about M you just don't. know until you know I take you through. the technology of why postal thinks it's. possible they La the North. Korean sub launch ballistic missile. fires from a couple hundred miles off. the West Coast that takes less than 10. minutes it's like 6 minutes or. something while the president is. deciding whether or not he's going to. give this counter launch and the secret.

service is moving. him the power plant is hit. and when the nuclear the reason I chose. the nuclear power plant to be hit is. because it's the it's What's called the. devil's. scenario it's worst it's the worst of. the worst worst case scenario. and I won't get too into the read into. the Weeds about what happens why. not I want you to read the book okay but.

no and I I shouldn't say it like that I. say what I mean. is the details you you if you're me you. almost can't like tell the details in. like a 30- second version because it's. so profound what happens and it's so. terrifying and people would say that. they would never do that well there. there's actually a rule it's called Rule. 42 in the international committee for. the Red Cross that says you will not you. must never.

Strike a n a nuclear power plant that's. even with Kinetic weapons we're not. talking about nuclear weapons and so. when I was doing this scenario people. you know that were sort of mentors are. you sure you want to do that I mean. that's against the rules it was like. well that's the point it there are no. rules if you're going to play nuclear. war and then this is before. the Ukraine war unfolded and so when. Russia Russia has now exploded. weapons around the zapara nuclear power.

plant in Ukraine eight or nine times. they have been on backup generator. that's one step away from losing power. that's one step away from a nuclear core. materials meltdown if you strike a. nuclear power plant directly with a. nuclear weapon you will have a nuclear. core materials meltdown the land will be. unin inhabited all the way to. Colorado are you. serious fact checked with Los Alamos wow.

that's why I don't want to give it away. I want you to have that experience Sean. where you read it and you're just like. how is this possible and hopefully the. only reason you're stopping to read is. to go back into the notes to check is. this really true so that's like a third. of the. country rendered. uninhabitable and so that's why the. president agrees in the logic of this. scenario to the. 82 nuclear warhead.

Counterattack because he learns from his. SEF we just got hit in a nuclear power. plant in California he's going to send. the motherload and that's what he. does and that is why. things go arise that decision to send 82. so perhaps the only way the scenario. might have unfolded differently and I. did this discussion with former. Secretary of Defense Bill Perry because. we talked about this a lot because he.

thinks about this a lot he's now in his. 90s and he stopped doing interviews but. during covid he and I did a number of. zooms going through these scenarios and. he he shared with me that you know. perhaps a certain kind of President. might. wait to see the. outcome after might not instill the. launch on morning policy might. way but once you.

see a catastrophic attack you just the. emotions take over and it's. Revenge what is the middle of the. country look. like when so 50 some odd men minutes. later when Russia launches okay so. because the president makes the decision. to launch the 82 as the weapons fly he.

launches 50 icbms and 32. slbms the the 50 can be launched. in 60 seconds that's how long it takes. to launch an ICBM once the president. gives the command the joke is the the. those missiles are called Minutemen. because of the Revolutionary War but the. joke in Washington is they don't call. them Minutemen for nothing cuz they take. 60 seconds to launch mhm sub launched. ballistic missiles take 14 minutes from. the time the commander and chief gives.

that order the sub has to get into. position it's a little bit more. complicated 14 minutes and so as the. clock is. ticking Russian early Warning Systems. now move into place and the Russian. early Warning Systems see the ballistic. missiles. coming over the pole and interpret them. as coming for thems for them and then.

there other you know and I went through. experts that are know all about the. Russian early Warning Systems to take. the reader through how this. happens and then you go into the command. bunker where the Pres the Russian. president is with his advisers who are. all almost certainly Hawks who are are. all almost certainly extremely. suspicious of the United. States and they advise. him and so a.

thousand nuclear warheads get get. launched at the United States so when. you ask what happens to the middle of. the country think of a thousand targets. I have a map drawn based on defense. department targets doe you know. different documents that have been. released over the years leaked. um guesstimated the whole country is. obliterated and then you have a 100 to. 300 square.

mile Ring of. Fire a mega fire that's now producing. its own weather you have a thousand of. them people die from rad you know. blast they die. from uh you know objects flying through. the air they die from immediate. radiation. poisoning um and they die from fire a. thousand. times and then in we talk about the.

survivors have you looked at what. immediate radiation poisoning looks. like for that I tell the story of and. again this stuff is. like okay how do you get how do you. where is that information well I found. that information there was a guy called. Lou. sloten Who was an original man Manhattan. Project. member and his death was Declassified by. Los Alamos the doctor's report on his. death after he died of radiation.

poisoning and I I source that precisely. throughout the book as the you know it's. a ticking time clock scenario but I stop. and give you little history lessons at. moments where you might ask like you. just asked me that question I give the. reader what does radiation poisoning. look like and I tell the story of Louis. loton he was he was a member of the. Manhattan Project and after the war was. over he was like I don't want to keep. making nuclear bombs I'm out and they. were like okay that's fine but you have. to train the next guy and so at Los.

Alamos they went out into this little. site kind of outside of the lab in the. forest the building's still there it's a. historical building now and um sloon was. training the next guy how to like work. with the with the plutonium core uranium. core like this is the center of the bomb. and they were doing this experiment that. was so dangerous it was called tickling. the dragon's. tail and sloon is working on this and. and it it.

drops and the so everybody takes off. and sloten what happens to him is like. documented in seconds he dies eight or. nine days later um this had been. classified for a very long time but it's. been Declassified and you can you just. learn what happens to his body I mean. you know where the the the hands blow up. the skin you know essentially peels off.

I mean it just is so grotesque you. really want me to describe it yeah. absolutely I mean they tried everything. like blood transfusions and you know his. your body swells up um they're put. they're debriding his hands they're. putting Vaseline on them his. insides begin to the radiation ruins the. lining on your organs and so you. essentially just.

become like it almost reminded me of I. read a description once of what happens. to an a Bola. patient it's like that like your the. lining SS away and so your organs start. to merge and you just have sepsis and. then you get gang green and then you die. and when they cut you open you're just. like soup inside it's like a. blender it's a horrific way to die.

that's acute radiation poisoning the. really Sinister thing about radiation. poisoning is how first of all it's. invisible you know um it's not like a. burn and the degrees of radiation. poisoning are not necessarily dependent. on proximity to the. bomb and of course the if you're really. close you know cyanara but you can have.

acute radiation poisoning far away from. one of the things about the nuclear. power plant exploding that's just so. crazy is that um it's not just the. nuclear core materials meltdown of the. actual nuclear reactor it's that every. nuclear facility has spent fuel rods. those are the rods that you to power the. the the nuclear generator they're in. cooling pools right. nearby and they're incredibly. radioactive and when those blast apart.

the pieces of the spent fuel rods become. entrained in the cloud so in that. mushroom stem you have all this. radioactive material that's like the. size of a marble or a pencil that's how. it was described to me and it goes up in. the cloud and then it moves and then. it's dropped. one of those drops near. you you have Louis loton type poisoning. man.

man where would the survivors. be so are you familiar at all with the. nuclear winter Theory no okay so nuclear. winter theory was. originally written in 1983 do you know. have you heard of Carl. San no okay Carl San was an. astrophysicist who like became very. famous in the 80 70s and ' 80s and then. he died tragically of cancer but he he. became a real proponent an anti-nuclear.

weapons. proponent um and he and his Stu and and. a number of people wrote this Theory. called nuclear winter where they climb. they modeled out what would. happen after the. fires stopped St burning so you have all. these fires and again we're just talking. about the thousand in the United States. the US launched in my scenario a. thousand at Russia because we don't just.

go you know. okay we're going to we're all going to. die so we're just going to let all of. you guys live we launch and for reasons. why I take you through that so you have. you know 2,000 3,000 nuclear weapons. that have gone off and the modeling on. that suggests that after all the fires. sto burning this is state-of-the-art. climate modeling updated since the 1983. nuclear winter Theory so this is still. the nuclear winter Theory but now with.

the. technology instead of scientists like. doing you know calculations on paper. with old computers these are. like really Advanced Computer Systems. confirming all of this the fires will. Loft into the air. 330 billion. pounds of. soot goes up into the troposphere and. blocks out the sun 70% of the sun's.

Rays. disappear and so hence nuclear winter. suddenly in places like across the mid. latitudes of the globe you. have all bodies become all bodies of. water fresh water bodies become ice. the ice at the Arctic Circle. doubles um you have a temperature drop. around the earth between 27 and. 40° w wow places like Iowa and Ukraine.

bread baskets of the world they become. Frozen for 8 9 10. years agriculture. fails so now you have people any. survivors who are you know malnourished. suffering from radiation poisoning. everyone who they know is. dead fighting over a tiny amount of.

resources when the sun. returns you think the sun's back out but. the ozone layer has been destroyed so. the sun will give you radiation. poisoning so people have to live. underground and this interesting detail. I. found was that was shared with me was. that like the small bodied animals the. sort of insects they can bounce back.

faster and they will reproduce faster. than hum than large-bodied animals like. you and me and so you have pathogens you. have plague you have like all these. horrific you know plagues that come with. insects and abundance of index never. mind all the that the five billion. people who died. I mean at some point their bodies Tha. out think about that that's like dark. Beyond. dark um one of the original authors of.

the nuclear winter theory is a guy. called Professor Brian tun and I. interviewed him for the book he's been. on this issue since he was Carl Sean's. student in the in 1983 when he when he. was one of the original five authors and. he took me through all of this you know. and he said to me Annie 66 million years. ago an. asteroid struck the planet killed the. dinosaurs and. 70% of the species that we know of he.

said nuclear war would not be unlike. that so you have to ask yourself you. know there's nothing we can do about an. asteroid strike but there is something. we can do. about nuclear war. this isn't a nation ending event this is. a it's a civilization ending event. civilization meaning civilized.

man civilized. man Einstein was. asked if he had like about what weapons. he thought World War III would be fought. with and his response is said to have. been I know not with what weapons World. War II will be fought but World War 4. will be fought with sticks and. stones so after a nuclear war man.

returns to his hunter gatherer. State and the philosophical question I. find so interesting to think about is. like here we. are humans who have moved in the past. 12,000 years from hunter gatherers. to like look at us podcasts. microphones I flew here there's a probe. on.

Mars do you. think I'm going to go down a rabbit hole. and you can entertain it or not but um. have you looked at any of the have you. looked at anybody. like I don't want to mention any names. if you looked at anybody or looked into. kind of the cataclysm type stuff and and. how civilization just restarts over and. over and over again you have what do you.

think of that yeah I mean we started out. this conference I'll read I read all. things do you think that this has. happened before I mean I don't know but. sometimes I try to counter what could be. perceived as. conspiracy conspiratorial thinking shall. we say with maybe a more. bookish you know concept which is. actually the same thing right so let me. go back at you with this that there's. there was a paper written by like two.

nerds and I say that love like two guys. with probably they probably have like. five phds and you can Google it it's. called the. saluran concept and I think they took. the name off of a doctor who character. if I'm not mistaken and an interesting. thing to think about in my experience. digressing for a second before a lot of. times like super intelligent PhD people. Nobel laurates science Geniuses they.

read science fiction they like to think. about the very Concepts that you just. suggested and when you think about it. that's where a lot of DARPA Concepts. come from you know you could say Jules. ver you know thought about the submarine. before right mhm um so the curan concept. where these. two PhD. people imagining if this if what you.

propose is true that there had been. Advanced civilizations before how would. we present day man see it in the. geological record which is actually a. really brilliant thought not talking. about like ancient archaeology that's. like that you're talking about. you know 12,000 years ago they're. talking about a million years ago 2. million years ago or. Beyond um and their the only way to to.

know about that would be to look in the. geological record and I think that is. really interesting to think about two. things one that like that's where it. would be and two that all kinds of. people wonder that and why wouldn't you. wonder that it's a little bit like. wondering are we alone mhm I sometimes. think of geology and as you know I. people look up to the cosmos and get.

really inspired I often look I look at. the ground I can drive and through the. Sierra Nevadas and look at the mountains. and have that same thought like what was. here. before like a long time. before reason I'm asking is you if you I. think it's turkey if you there's all. these. [Music]. underground they're like underground. cities you know and I I believe it's. turkey they.

have I wish I had more facts on this I. don't think we were going to go here but. um I mean it seems like hundreds of. thousands of people could could live in. these underground cities they never end. they never find the end of them. and nobody knows why they were built. and then you're saying the only way you. could survive is. underground yes I I know. that site I mean it's very very.

interesting and I love thinking. about those exact questions that you. raise in in the end of nuclear war. scenario I take the reader to a. different ancient site in Turkey CU. turkeyy is like super interesting they. seem to have these incredibly old sites. that are almost now newly becoming not. necessarily discovered but becoming sort. of more people are aware of them um and. I learned that that has to do with a. bias from the archaeological world that.

used to look down on Turkey like Greece. and Rome or everything but turkey it's a. Backwater ignore it so I write about go. Beckle tap which is a. site in turkey that is the oldest known. civilization to date like the old before. it was found in the mid90s by an. archaeologist named CLA Schmidt and I. interviewed the young student who was.

with him Schmidt died but I interviewed. Michael morsh about finding this site. okay because before this site was found. there was the archaeologists all had one. idea about man they had this idea that. about civilization rather that man were. hunter gatherers Primitives and then. suddenly uh man figured out how to. domesticate animals and. agriculture evolved and led to.

Civilization by civilization that means. groups of people doing things. together a team mhm well gockley Tey was. Unearthed and there's I have pictures of. it in the book it's it was a. site with it's like Centric circles. almost like a stadium an ancient Stadium. massive with giant 20 foot. tall carved Stone.

pillars covered with non-domesticated. animals by the way cranes ebis. foxes they were hunter gatherers they. had not domesticated animals yet as far. as we can tell certainly given the age. of everything there but they they were. smart enough to create architectural. plans you can't build something like. that with like a group of you know. hunter gatherers you have to really have.

a team so it's. upended the way that archaeologists get. to think about man and about the birth. of. civilization and it's super interesting. and what interests me in terms of this. book is exactly on the question that. you're interested in and so am I which. is like. well it's like a two-fold question one. what was going on before okay and. two why is it that we the Royal we a.

group of people like get to decide this. is what it was and this is how it is. it's just going to be that way because. we tell you so mhm and you have to. balance that out with like some crazy. idea that I might have you know out on a. hike um but it is worth thinking about. and I think that it opens the mind. up to a lot more wonder and also a lot. more. flexibility it makes you think makes it.

definitely makes you think and you know. it's. it's we're kind of off on a tangent now. but I mean I just how was how how were. we not aware of this stuff. before the exist of these incredible. sites in Turkey yeah I mean or any of. them any during Co I went down. archaological rabbit hole because right. and like I bought a bunch of books on.

eBay cuz here's the thing if you read. the original books or rather you you go. back in time and you read books that. were printed then you can get a really. interesting different Sense on what. historians say about. it and so I read all these books. archaeology only really began in sort of. the late. 1800s and I and I have these books like. what people were actually saying at the.

time about the sites they were. uncovering the goods which they stole. which are now you know in the Lou and. the British Museum and everywhere and it. was that's where I got that I kind of. figured out that it had to do with a. group of people at the time who were the. leading experts the British and the. French. deciding this is important we're going. to study this and we're going to ignore. the rest of it and that's why turkey got. ignored for a long. time up until like the.

1950s. wow interesting interesting stuff you. know it's it's I i' never really I've. watched a couple documentaries on. it and you know the the the the. commonality between all of them is what. what were these people hiding from why. were they going underground I mean. thousands and it could hold thousands. and thousands of people and if I.

remember correctly I mean there's. there's I don't know if Plumbing is the. right word but I mean they have Plumbing. they. have they had everything you know it was. it was capable of holding and I never it. never occurred to me to think that it. could. be. possibly excuse. me some type of nuclear fallout. shter and it's I mean almost certainly.

it had to do with. Warfare that you would create I think. it's called Darian Kirk is that right. Darian man I don't know I don't know I. mean almost certainly it has to do with. defense but to create that much of a. system. underground begs many many many. questions. and I think that that's also like.

why that idea of Science. Fiction is so interesting here's a quote. from. DARPA that the DARPA director said when. I was reporting that book which is here. at DARPA we're where science fiction. becomes science. fact right so you're making me. think that site is like a perfect place.

for like a science fiction. novel or dot dot. dot because then when you begin to look. at it and archaeologists are studying it. you realize there is scientific fact. here and how do you reverse. engineer the truth about that what it is. yeah I think only with people having. eyes on it which is why I think you and. I both appreciate all these different uh. ideas that people bring to the table you. don't have to agree with all of them but.

they certainly anything that gets my. mind going I I consider a value me too. me too it kind of uh it kind of I don't. understand people that just shut it off. you know it's like we were talking about. at the beginning they're they're they. people get too. into political figures their side of. things it's it's it's people are just. too one-sided and uh I don't know I.

don't know why there are not more. critical. thinkers but um but uh man I love. talking to you about this stuff by the. way this is great conversation you know. this is what it makes me think about and. and I'm really going to go on a tangent. here it makes me think about what Hill. do you want to die on right so so can I. tangent here can I absolutely. so I personally think the. more different kinds of people you can.

talk to the more interesting. ideas you can hold in your brain the. more flexible you can be in your. thinking and. then the. more amicable you are right so the more. the more more well in you are to. different kinds of people and so you. just said like what hill what hill are. you going to die on right what why do. people get so set in their ways and I'm. just jumping tangent here. but at the hotel where I'm staying here.

I am in Tennessee I haven't been here. since I was 20 years old and I'm I look. at the geology a lot of places and. outside the window of the hotel there's. like I didn't realize Tennessee had so. many. Hills okay and. that concept I immediately had this. flashback to Billy wall okay because the. concept of what Hiller you're going to. die on comes from Vietnam at least. according to W did you know this I.

didn't okay and I didn't either until he. told me but I went with Billy W back to. Vietnam we were going to go to Kayon I. wanted do you know about keson I don't. okay Quon is like it's like the. equivalent of fujia okay in the Vietnam. War I mean it was. it was the it was the the fight for. keson as a Marine base was. just it's astounding how important that.

place was because it was the closest to. North Vietnam and what happened there. and the books that have it's just so. tragic to me that it's like completely. lost to history but it was this. incredibly important base all kinds of. Americans died there Billy W and I went. back there because that's where his he. was with unit called MC V SOG which is. kind of the precursor to ground Branch. really to it was special activities. Division and they had a base underground. a base beneath the base surrounded by.

concertino wild that's how classified. MCV SG missions were because they were. the cross border missions into T. LA. and we go back to keson and we were in a. little hotel just like like not that far. from the hotel I'm staying in and there. I am standing with Billy wall looking. out the window at these Hills not unlike. the hills in. Tennessee and that's when he explained. to me you know where the expression what. hill are you going to die on comes.

from. okay wow and he tell I'm like no tell me. and that hill and now if you look up. anything about Vietnam and for your. older listeners they're sitting there. going uh-huh uh-huh I mean the. expression let's take that hill and it's. so powerful and so important and so. tragic at the same time because that is. what was being done all these American.

boys these young soldiers Billy was an. old Soldier I mean by then he was Billy. was different he was the guy who raised. his hand and said send me you know but. so many of these young kids that were. sent to war died taking the hill it was. like the defense department was like we. need that hill and in quesan you could. see them out the window that you could. just see the. hills and it makes and and then I when I. was studying the war on terror and. writing about it you know and I think.

about that with like the people I've. interviewed who so many of their friends. died you know essentially taking a hill. not a hill but fig you know figuratively. MH and then here we are talking about. the same idea which is like what hill. are you going to die on you know why is. it so important to be. right about an idea which you only know. some of. yeah yeah that's a great. Point let's take another break uh when.

we come back I'd like to talk a little. bit about global strategy with uh. nuclear warfare sound good yeah anything. you. want those of you that have been around. SRS for a while know that we take mental. heal Health very seriously here so. seriously that in almost every episode. you'll find a segment where we discuss. how to improve your mental health and. part of improving your mental health is.

keeping your mind sharp and part of. keeping your mind sharp is giving it the. fuel that it needs to balance energy. Focus cognition. and just regenerating your brain that. triggered me to go on a journey to find. the supplement that's ports brain health. with the cleanest of ingredients on the. planet and I found it I was actually. going to start my own company and do. this but I found lared superfoods I've.

partnered with them now I'm a partial. owner and I really believe in these. products here's my favorite product. performance. mushrooms by lared. superfoods brain fuel you can put this. in your coffee you can put it in your. tea you can drink it raw you can mix it. with their greens you can do all kinds. of stuff bottom line is this is the best. possible supplement with the cleanest. ingredients all sourced in the United. States that supports brain health and.

here's two other products that I'm a fan. of LED superfoods creamer guess what. contains functional mushroom extracts. put this in your tea or coffee and most. of you know I'm not a caffeine or coffee. drinker but a lot of you are and they. just happen to have layered superfoods. coffee organic pervan coffee with you. guessed it functional mushrooms that. support and regenerate your brain go to.

LED superfoods.com use the promo code. SRS you'll get 20% off guys this is the. real deal these are the finest of. ingredients check it out lared. superfoods.com promo code SRS 20% off. join me and my special guests for the. next behindthescenes experience. exclusively available on vigilance Elite. patreon the behind the-scenes footage is. raw and uncut this is as close to the.

set as you can possibly get you can. expect anything from off-topic. conversations Studio tours the final. moments before the interview starts and. everything in between the behind the. scenes content is constantly evolving. and will continue to bring you more as. we grow you can gain access for for just. $15 a month exclusively at vigilance. Elite. patreon all right Annie we're back from. the break we're going to get into some.

World strategy when it comes to nuclear. warfare so we've kind of talked about if. North Korea sends nuclear warheads to. the US US returns they have to fly over. Russia Russia fires on us pretty much. automatically it sounds. like what about the other what Six. Nations that have this type of. capability what what are they going to. do so the scenario I write takes place.

in 72. minutes when the EMP nuclear weapon goes. off earlier than that that was there all. along launched into space by North Korea. disguised as as a radio satellite it. takes out the entire grid that's what an. EMP exploded 300 miles over the center. of the country would. do it's just a massive failure of it's a.

colossal failure of everything. electric and so in essence the ability. to understand what anyone is doing. outside what you can physically see. disappears so for that reason. we that's where the scenario ends other. than nuclear winter meaning what did. China do what did India and Pakistan. do I don't know but it was done.

specifically for that idea that. continues to interest me is how did man. become civilized mhm how did we go from. how did we figure out how to. write you know we only know so much. about history. back to where people started writing it. down it's just guesswork before then. archaeological. interpretation so man you know 5,000 BC. figures out how to.

write that wasn't that long so we've had. a 7,000 year run of. history and once All Electronics cease. in the world in which we live today just. the information. goes all everything on your computer is. gone MH who writes lonand anymore. besides me and a couple of others not. very many people not very many. people um so it's the end of.

civilization it's the end of History. meaning the ability to report what. happened that's for that same reason I. don't get into the geopolitics in my. book in the scenario of why it happens. many books have been written about that. the geopolitical maneuvering China the. long game the you know the great Powers. all of that that's been written by many. people and it's very interesting to. think about but it's not part of this. book this book is here's what.

happens once the missile launches okay. did any of your. sources start to tangent into that by. chance interestingly not interestingly. not no I mean we just kept the focus you. only have so much time with the Source. you know and you might want to just pull. them back in there were there were. reasons to think about that in terms of. um my other books for sure usually it's. about how did we.

deter the Soviet Union right the whole. the cia's. paramilitary which you know about from. direct personal experience was set up to. counter The Vicious activities of the. Soviet Union as if they were trying what. whatever they were doing it was trying. to weaken the United States and then. attack us with nuclear weapons so I've. I've looked at it from all these. different angles but in in this book. it's just game on then what happens okay.

and you you picked you picked North. Korea. because cuz gar Canon made me think. about this idea of a Mad King the sort. of madman with a nuclear Arsenal. which I mean I think your reference to. suicide bombers is and it's a reason why. most people in the west would tell you.

that Iran should not never have a. nuclear bomb I mean the fundamentals of. their of their governance is re you know. religion-based and their ideas about the. the end of the world world are. frightening I mean they are a very. apocalyptic um they are very apocalyptic. in their thinking like the apocalypse is. fine that's not someone you want with a.

nuclear Arsenal yeah yeah no. kidding um do you know how. many how many nuclear warheads the the. other six countries have how many does. India have and and also just to just to. like shout out to anyone who wants to. nerd out on this is that there's an. organization led by a guy called Hans. Christensen he writes the nuclear. notebook with a team of people Matt.

Corda Ilana. Reynolds and that's at inside the. Federation of American. scientists and they keep track of the. nuclear warheads to the best of their. ability based on what is transparent. that's why they change every year so. they write these long monographs which. are profoundly important to people like. me who has what where what we know about.

them and why really important to. understand the system of systems we're. up against so my information comes from. them and so. China last year was reported to have 4. 400 nuclear weapons this year they have. 500 that is deeply concerning the. defense department believes that in the. next 10 years China will have.

1,500 that's deeply concerning Russia is. not building new nuclear weapons. allegedly neither are we India and. Pakistan are said to have or understood. to have. about 165 I think it is each okay when. you really drill down on it you realize. that we don't really know the report the. transparency from. them is limited and how much.

intelligence the agency has on it is. anyone's. guess what about our allies what about. UK and. France uh UK I believe has about 200 and. I'm forgetting the exact number of. France right now but the UK is. interesting because they have reduced. their weapon. systems down to only. submarines which is really interesting a. lot of disarmament Advocates believe.

that the United States for Safety and. Security reasons should get rid of the. icbms that they're just too dangerous. that the nuclear armed nuclear powerered. submarines they have enough capacity to. end civilization in a single Le. submarine we have 14 of. them so why do you need all of the other. equipment well you can get into that. whole like sort of deterrent spin but.

that is a legitimate point that the. icbms are dangerous the icbms are the. one also also that could be. misinterpreted as coming over the pole. you know the sub launched ballistic. missiles can land on a Target in under. 10 minutes there's a document that I. located in a budget request from the. Pentagon um asking for more money from. Congress and one of the re one of the. reasons they ask for more money has to. do with the threats from the.

submarines that are owned by China and. Russia and I had never seen this map. before I reprint it in the book so that. people do not take my word for it. they're like can say holy. wow you can't tell where a submarine is. moving moving in real time they're. stealthy as Admiral Connor told me he. was the former commander of the nuclear. sub forces for the United States he said. to me Annie it's easier to find a.

grapefruit sized object in space than it. is to find a nuclear submarine Under the. Sea are you serious how stealth that's. from the man who ran the program Okay so. these are not called handmaidens of the. Apocalypse for. nothing they can really do everything. that you would never want to have happen. so why do we need the icbms why do we.

need the bombers the bombers aren't even. going to get to The Targets in time I. learned from the bomber Pilots they have. a multi-hour trip the the whole scenario. ends in 72. minutes that you could say has to do. with posturing has to do with the. perception of deterrence and has to do. with the N the military-industrial. complex which is I'm not talking about. fighter jets for conventional Warfare.

I'm just talking about the B-52s and the. b2s that carry our 66 nuclear capable. bombers and they're very threatening you. know whenever we want North Korea to. know we mean business we do like drills. over the Korean peninsula. I mean is that agitating or is. it I don't. know I think it just it lets them know.

we're watching and we've got our eye on. them could be taken as a threat. but and it probably is but I I don't I. mean the leader of North Korea recently. said America has a Sinister intention to. provoke nuclear. war when I hear or read that and then I. think about the UN Secretary General. saying we're one misunderstanding one.

miscalculation away from nuclear arm. again it's the word miscalculation that. troubles meh that's what the scenario is. built upon because the. miscalculation can't be undone in the. same way that the ballistic missile. can't be recalled. once it. Sparks it's fire and dry. grass. yeah man it's. uh I would love to dive into it I don't.

know how it would go but I would love to. I mean especially with with bricks are. you familiar with. bricks Brazil Russia India China South. Africa it's a it's basically it's like. the counterpart to Nato mhm. and India Russia. China they're all in there you know and. and.

uh I feel like a nuclear attack would. be could turn into an alliance against. us instead of just one country and then. a misunderstanding you know I feel like. China would probably be in there as. well one of the and Pakistan one of the. more sort of keeps you up at night.

things to consider is. that and again this is just from. interviews I did where we did kind of. discuss the geopolitical ideas about. things is that Russia has thought about. nuclear weapons for a long time their. command and control has been in place. since 1949 when they got the bomb the. countries that have newer nuclear. weapons do not have that.

same long lens of. history. and if you also consider what I was told. about the knowledge depth of the. American president president on nuclear. war should it happen and you consider if. that's the same for the leaders of some. of these other nuclear armed Nations. that are you know not reliable then you. have another problem where you have.

somebody actually thinking like you just. said like a nuclear war a nuclear strike. could dot dot dot instead of realizing. you can't ever have a nuclear war. because it would end in Armageddon now. before the Ukraine war I would have told. you that the president of Russia knew. that and would never threaten that way. so the nuclear threats coming from Putin. are so alarming to someone like. me but they but then again they began.

with the US president former president. Trump talking that way with North so. we're into a dangerous rhetoric that. didn't. exist 10 years ago so the US set the. president. to bring up nuclear war I believe so and. now now it's spreading now it's. spreading and nuclear. threats nuclear saber rattling is so.

dangerous because it somehow. minimizes um or rather it. maximizes the possibility. that right and and and that people are. talking about tactical nuclear. weapons I mean shall I like give you. like the do you know the difference. between tactical and strategic nuclear. weapons to listeners does go ahead. should I I mean in a nutshell a tactical. nuclear weapon is a battlefield.

weapon it's just a bigger bomb and but. not just because it's nuclear we in the. in the Cold War we were building. tactical weapons like they were going. out of style and we've pulled back. entirely from that to only having this. leading concept of strategic n strategic. nuclear weapons is like a euphemism for. ballistic missiles and then our bombers. carry you know gravity bombs but the. tactical nuclear weapons that Putin.

keeps threatening potential use of or. that he moved into bellarus recently. that's like such a that's like moving. the Red Line in the. Sand to a dramatic new position which is. saying this could be a Poss. ibility and I can only. imagine what the National Security. Council must be going the. gymnastics they must be doing to try to. figure out how.

to position themselves against this kind. of. rhetoric scary scary stuff scary stuff. another tangent yeah why do you think. why do you. think we are seeing so much UFO activity. around nuclear. sites well I was going to. say what I was going to say is we're on. such a dark topic maybe we should talk. about.

UFOs right which is which may answer. that question I. mean how do I answer this in a in in an. interesting informative way. um I mean I love narrative I love story. stories I love storytelling I love. talking um it's Comm it's how people. tell each other's stories to communicate. you have to have an interesting story to.

be able to grab somebody's attention and. talk about them and UFOs are so. interesting the idea that these. spaceships would carry people from outer. space to us what could be more. interesting than that. so the idea of UFOs to my eye has been. around forever as long as man has been. writing history or before he was writing. history uh when I was writing the book.

phenomena I interviewed jacqu Val who is. the sort of perhaps the world's leading. eup. ethologist and he he wrote this amazing. book which I have a copy of like a hard. cover book with beautiful illustrations. in it. that takes the reader through some of. the oldest images in art. history and jacqu has curated them all. to show.

UFOs the idea of UFOs throughout. recorded history MH it's always been. there the nuclear thing is interesting I. do know that a theory has developed a. narrative around this idea that. you know aliens or people from outer. space Were Somehow concerned that we. invented this weapon that could end. civilization and they therefore came to.

Aid or help or make themselves noticed I. mean it's an interesting. narrative it is an interesting. narrative all different kinds of people. have. different things to add to that. narrative including jacqu valet. including Hal put off including a lot of. these people who are leaders in that in. the field my lens of. UFOs comes from very specifically from.

sources I have worked with who have a. different take on that who who see that. as part of a strategic deception. campaign should I give you a little more. detail yes please so the early book I. wrote the first book I wrote ER. 51 um is about a CIA base in the middle. of the Nevada desert inside the Nevada. test and training range where we set off. nuclear weapons did you know this I did.

okay a lot I mean people know that now. and it's great and then that base is. inside an even bigger test and training. range where pilots fly out of. Nellis um but in the 50s Area 51 was. specifically set up by the CIA to. develop the U2 spy plan. which was this highflying aircraft. 70,000 ft up it. flew I mean in 1950 that is just nothing. short of a miracle it was out of the. range of Russian surface to air.

missiles for Area 51 I got to interview. the guys who built that airplane from. scratch literally it did not come with. the manual they built it I interviewed. the pilots who flew it flew it over the. Soviet Union flew it over you know all. kinds of. places and it was so secret that. Eisenhower knew about it the director of. the CIA and the guys at Area 51 working.

that's it that's it it was like as. because it needed to be secret because. if the Russians knew about it they'd. shoot it down which they ended up doing. with Gary Powers in 1960 so the CIA knew. it was inevitable that it would get shot. down but they were just playing with. fire until it did and but the point of. all this is when when that was flying it. was. mistaken for a UFO think about something. flying 70,000 ft up people didn't know.

airplanes fly at 25,000 ft. is imagine you're somebody that looks up. and also the U2 has these incredibly. long wings so it just looks like a. flying. cross and the reflection of it. um it looks like a UFO because it's not. where it's supposed to be yeah I mean. could you even see it's 70,000 feet you. could tell was a cross well it just they. didn't know what it was yeah but the CIA.

learned about that and it was like an oh. moment you know our project's going. to become busted open the Public's going. to know about it and people started. writing to their Congressman I have seen. these letters Declassified from the CIA. you know um. we're really concerned there's a UFO. over their state and then the CIA. decided to use this as part of a. strategic deception campaign well let's. Goose this idea that there are. UFOs because it's going to hide its.

cover for the for the actual U2 does. that mean that every UFO or every UFO. sighting is a U2 of course not but when. you look at that as a fact it becomes. interesting in the in the narrative when. the C when the CIA built the follow-on. plane which was called the a12 oxcart so. did you ever see any of the X-Men movies. oh yeah okay so you know that plane they. fly I do right so that's the. SR71 okay that's the Air Force version.

of it it's a two-seater the CIA. precursor plane which was totally secret. not Declassified till I don't know 20 15. years ago 20 years ago um it was a. one-seater it had a CIA pilot in it they. flew it out at Area 51. uh it went mock 3 something in. 1960 2,300 mil hour at 90,000. ft okay in 1960 think of what a. refrigerator looked like in.

1960 okay so this was like technology. that no one could even comprehend and. they had to keep it secret and in my. interviews with Colonel Slater who was. in charge of the whole program he took. me through the exact details of like. people seeing the plane even in an an an. commercial air the example he gave me. was a group of people in a I think it. was an American Airlines flight saw the. oxcart as it was coming down from 90,000. ft to try to land at Area. 51 and they and they they saw it and.

they all thought they saw. UFOs and Slater told me the story and. showed me some documentation of the FBI. meeting the. plane in Los Angeles when it landed. saying. like you did not see a UFO you must sign. this disclosure paper saying you will. never share that you saw a. UFO so it built this Mystique in I mean. if you if if the FBI shows up and said.

you did not see that. UFO who are they doing this to the. civilians on the American. Airline they have them all so the point. of this is the CIA would. use the sort of Mythology of a UFO in. its. to help cover the programs that it's. trying to hide so was the FBI in on it. the FBI was only the FBI did not know. good question the FBI did not know about. the a12 oxcart the FBI was told make all.

those people sign those non-disclosures. and tell them they you didn't see a. UFO so then you have all these FBI. agents now who are prone to thinking. that was a. UFO again does it mean all. UFO sightings are the a12 oxcart which. doesn't fly anymore of course not yeah. but if you have that information I think. you can think more on. balance for. me but yeah and the deception that the. government's capable of and does and and.

also when you're talking about aircraft. and. airspace it's very difficult for me to. accept that. our sacredly guarded Aerospace is. regularly. intruded by Craft that somebody at the. defense department doesn't know what it. is I just have trouble believing that. knowing having written the books that. I've written about high performance.

aircraft but I don't even bother getting. into this argument with it's not an. argument but this discussion with the. people who really. believe you know that these. are UA piece the new term which I'm. fascinated by have you have you looked. into Skinwalker Ranch at all by chance I. mean I've interviewed all the guys who. are at. Skinwalker not all of them but many of. them this is before not the current.

situation but this is. when owned it and the original original. team that was there that claimed to have. seen the portals and the werewolves and. the and by the way these are phds with. DARPA contracts telling me all this. it's just hard for my. brain. to conceptualize that other than their. perception which is what we were talking. about at break yeah yep yep yep with.

that being said now you know now they. see all these radiation spikes right as. these uaps UFOs these phenomenons happen. have you looked into that at. all well I haven't because I would say. first thing would be like who's they and. where are these radiation Spike. documents coming from so when I in other. words when I worked with all the big low. the people that were at the Skinwalker. Ranch when it was Bigalow it was always. an internal situation and it was the.

documents are Bigalow and you can't look. at them CU they're in his possession so. it seemed like a closed loop MH but I do. want to say and we were talking about. this a break the the analogy that I. think of that of all of this so that. it's clear that I'm not not just. dismissively self-righteous which I. would never want to be I'm much more. Curious than that but the analogy I used. was what I told you about hearing things. right like because I believe this is a.

issue of. perception what you can see you know you. think of some people being. colorblind what I see is so different. than what they see then I think of as I. told you before like sometimes you know. we you you have like you hear a high. pitch frequency and maybe it's because. you were listening to your ear pods too. long or you were you know in an. airplane and so you suddenly say to. someone do you hear that because it's. you know you hear you actually hear.

something is that in your brain is that. in your perception is that in the. environment perhaps when people. see uaps they are seeing them and others. aren't for me that's my current position. on how I think about. that so are you are you saying it. originates in the. mind I don't I do not have the answer.

I'm. just. curious about what it might be because. and I'm also the reason why it's really. interesting is millions of people are. interested in this you we talked about. this before it's I mean who wants to. talk about nuclear Holocaust when you. can talk about possible aliens Among. Us right yeah. yeah but they don't have to cancel one.

another out I mean it's an it's interest. what I'm I mean it's interesting because. now even a lot of what astrophysicists. are starting to say that the you know. the expansive universe. and the no matter how far out we look. something will be there mhm and and I. think what they're alluding to is that. our minds are creating the unseeable.

universe yeah I mean you had said when. we were discussing earlier like is it. also have something to do. with people's perception of religion or. spirituality and what comes to mind on. that is one of my favorite thinker is. Carl Yung have you ever read any Yung I. haven't oh my goodness I mean he was. just uh he was so interested in. Consciousness and and in he's almost the. cre like the I don't want to say the.

inventor but he did a lot of work on. archetypes what archetypes mean you know. the wizard the priest the king the Queen. the witch archetypes of humans and. symbols and. he wrote all about this he wrote a book. on UFOs and that they that UFOs were the. product the modern-day UFOs were the. product of people's fear of nuclear.

Annihilation very interesting book but. Yung and po all a Nobel laureat I'm. forgetting his first name they were. friends and they would have a lot of. discussions about the phenomena of UFOs. and I write about this in my phenomena. book because POI had this. crazy quality about him that he. would go walk into places and somehow.

disturb the. electronics okay so he was like a Nobel. laurat physicist wow but like cameras. would shut off things would fall over. this is documented are you serious re. read the book you'll love this part of. it and and he couldn't explain. why but it was known and. notable and so he had some kind of. different energy going on or however you. want to interpret it um but this led to. these discussions between Yung and.

Paulie about whether or not ESP was real. because of course ESP extra sensory. perception and UFOs often get linked. together mhm and their their takeaway. one of their takeaways was that. what whenever you're talking about it or. thinking about it you have to think. about the. age that you are in when you are. thinking about it having to do with. technology so again diluting that down.

it's almost like my takeaways they were. saying there's The Narrative of it and. then there's the technology that exists. in the present day and. then you can begin. to maybe think more deeply about the. whole. issue without getting the answer. yeah fascinating stuff let's let's get. back to nukes mhm so when you went to. Brussels I would like to talk about your.

discussions there and and how you came. up how you came up on their radar mhm. actually let me let's go. further who were you who what was this. event that you were speaking at. it was a nuclear. Expo put together in Brussels the host. was the icrc the international committee. for the Red Cross the Norwegian Red. Cross the Belgian Red Cross and the.

Norwegian people's AIDS there was many. doctors Physicians who were there as. well because the emphasis of the. Symposium was on what nuclear weapons do. to the human. body how horrific of a weapon it is not. just to Warf. fighters who are you know sign up for. war or are drafted into war who are.

fighting a war hopefully away from the. civilian population but rather that. nuclear. weapons kill millions of civilians. indiscriminately and their job these. organizations these Aid or organizations. is to put the emphasis on that so that. they can have more people interested and. kind of open the open the pathway to why. regular people like you and me should be. thinking about nuclear weapons and it. shouldn't just be left to the military.

or the geopolitical. thinkers and and and because it's in. Brussel the members of the European. Parliament. were were there were invited and I took. questions from some of them some of us. many of us did so these organizations. have been hard at work for decades on. this issue and they don't want it to go. away what were some of the most relevant. questions in your opinion that you were. asked I mean it was a day long you know.

there were panels there were um I was. the keynote speaker was incredible honor. the other main speaker was a 80-year-old. woman who was a hakua I'm I'm not saying. the word right but that is a survivor of. if you're a survivor of the Nagasaki or. the Hiroshima bombing wow she was 80. years old and she was one year and 10. months old when Nagasaki destroyed her. City and she survived wow so that gives.

you some context of who I was with um. but back up for a second because you. asked me how I wound up there because. this might be interesting I was the book. published in the end of March and I was. doing a book event at a bookstore. in Washington DC called politics and. pros and normally authors just sign. books and you maybe give a little talk. but for this event I had asked two. colleagues to participate one was John.

wolfa who was the a national security. adviser to President Obama and the other. was Lieutenant General Charles Moore who. just retired as the deputy commander of. cyber command and before that he was uh. in the Pentagon that running the j3. maybe it was the J2 um beneath you know. so reporting directly to the Joint. Chiefs and before that he was running. nuclear war scenarios for. norat and so you could say that Obama's.

you know dis uh National Security. adviser was on the side of kind of. disarmament and you could say that. General Moore was on the side of. military nuclear command and control. because that's the truth so these are. maybe even two people people that don't. normally have a conversation with one. another yeah they might consider. themselves on different sides of the. aisle but again one of my great. hopefully the good kind of pride of my. reporting is that I talk to both I talk.

to everybody and in fact want them at my. book signings to have a conversation and. we had this profound conversation it was. so. excellent It's on tape and there the. audience was filled I mean there was. standing room only and there were two. really interesting people in that. audience I mean everybody was. interesting all the questions were. interesting but the director of Los. Alamos nuclear laboratory was in the. current director was in the audience no.

kidding and he came up to me as. afterwards and asked me if I would speak. at the. lab and I said of course and he said. many people at the lab designing the you. know nuclear future. don't know what's in my book they're. under fiveyear employees at the lab I. mean that's. astonishing super grateful for his. cander about that and another person um. that was in the audience was with NTI.

which is a disarmament group that is. affiliated with the nuke Expo and I. think between the two of them that's how. I wound up at the nuke Expo so you never. you just show up and do your book. signings and you never know what can of. it wow wow when are you going to speak. it Los it hasn't been arranged yet but. I'm really intrigued by that and you. know here's another thing I know you're. not a big fan of Hollywood necessarily. right I will convert you.

yet um I know you trained keano shooting. for John Wick so that's another story. then we roll reversal and I ask you. questions but so films Hollywood uh. Oppenheimer movie which you may or may. not have seen it was such a billion. dooll success around the world and from. what I understand from my sources at Los. Alamos it profoundly imp impacted Los.

Alamos. meaning I've been reporting on nuclear. weapons for what 15 years now and Los. Alamos has always been like this with me. I've been there I've been to their. Library their archives but there they'. always been like this as if the. journalist is somehow the. opponent as if Joe or Jane publ is. somehow the opponent mhm and Oppenheimer. seems to have shifted that suddenly Los.

Alamos at least the historian there. Glenn mcdu shared with me has gotten. like softer they've been in they were. inundated with questions about the lab. after the Oppenheimer film by regular. people wanting to know things. and they responded with a kind of. openness and transparency that if you're. a journalist you think is a great thing. and I think that effect may have also. carried up to the top and that's why the. director was at my book.

signing as opposed to I'm excited for. you that's going to be really cool we're. kind of all on the same page when you. really think about it like no one should. be for nuclear war yeah the question is. should no one be for nuclear. weapons what are some questions I should. be asking you that I haven't asked.

yet I mean I think it's just so. interesting that we get to have a. conversation when we kind of go back and. forth and down the rabbit holes. because I think that's where the more. interesting. thoughts happen you know and also the. takeaways you know sometimes you go away. from a. conversation a little bit changed about. an idea or excited to explore a new idea.

you know also think it's interesting. that we have probably a number of. colleagues in common but since those. worlds are. classified I only know their code names. and you only know their code names. different code names. you might know their real name I might. know the code name I might know the real. name the code name and uh yeah that's a. that's just a part of living in that. world you know it's um it gets a little. confusing but how do you this is back to.

the Eisenhower question I mean what is. your take on how you. balance you know. Liberty and defense and if you parse out. Liberty you want secur. you want times of Peace you don't want. war you know I often think about the. president's options you know he has. diplomacy that's his first option he has. war and then the third option is covert.

action which you were involved in which. I've written about so the idea would. be you know to be living in a permanent. state of. diplomacy but that's not practical h M. how do how do you think one. balances Liberty and. security wow that's a tough tough. question.

but I mean I think it's. definitely constantly has. to evolve because we gain enemies we. lose enemies we gain allies we lose. allies we I mean we just as America we. have so many Targets on our back and we. have so many enemies throughout the. world which.

which with a lot of them I can't I can't. even blame them you know. I on the show we you know i' talked to. you this morning and we told you how. this podcast kind of started and it was. all former colleagues and and we dissect. I'm getting off on a tangent here but we. dissect you know the are we the bad guys. in some of these. scenarios and you know after after 20.

plus years of you know this generation's. war the. gwad should we have been in Iraq how. would we have acted if if if we were. invaded by a country. would we have fought against the. invading country and and and you know it. opens up a. really interesting discussion because a. lot of people think that you maybe maybe.

we're not the good guys in all of these. conflicts and um. but back to your question security. diplomacy I mean you you in my opinion. we you have to take into to account that. we have a lot of enemies whether we. created them whether they just hate us. and that that doesn't that's another. discussion. but with as much as we have going on we. have the world currency we I mean we we.

we we are the. superpower. and I. don't as much as I would. love to say yep we should all we should. get rid of our nuclear. warheads strive more towards peace I. just I don't think that's a viable. option. because we're the world's superpower we. have a lot of targets on our back and.

and and we have. to we have to be able to show Force we. have to have people know you know. somewhat what our capabilities might be. uh and that there will be repercussion. if if they launch anything at us and. um as far as balancing that man it's uh. I don't know I haven't thought about.

that I it's in when you say we have a. lot of targets on our back you know it. sends like a shiver up the spine because. it's absolutely true and when just when. you're thinking diplomacy is everything. you must always couple that with we are. a Target and there are enemies out there. I. wonder perhaps more than any other book. I've written this book has made me.

wonder. about pus as a concept not political not. him or him as a concept the president of. the United States because an interesting. thing happens. when many presidents this is this speaks. to your point of like could we ever get. rid of nukes I don't know and then we. think of the deterrence con many. presidents go into office and I mean. many like almost all the modern off the.

modern presidents learning a little bit. about nuclear weapons before their. debrief their presidential debrief and. then you hear them say things like I'm. going to get rid of the launch on. warning policy it's inexcusably Danger. ous so you they hear things as a as a. civilian and then a mysterious thing. happens they get into. office and they learn.

something that then you never hear from. that you never hear talk of that again. and I want to know what it. is they hear. H that's a great point I mean. I sometimes feel like it's a metaphor. for that has to do with the immigration. crisis right and again not to politicize. it but. like I mean let's just say a baseline.

that everyone could agree that illegal. immigration is a bad thing because it's. illegal and we are a nation of laws and. you want to have rule of law so that's. all that right but as a concept you hear. the same thing you hear presidents have. really big ideas about. immigration and then and they say. certain things they espouse certain. things I mean president-elect or you. know running for office candidates and. then they learn. something and you never hear from it.

again and I know that that has changed a. little bit in in the past few years. because immigration has become a. different issue but you get the analogy. like what is it that. podus learns. that we the. people don't get to. know about these issues on completely. opposite sides of the existential threat. margin maybe or May right but kind of.

exist as equal. threats what do they learn and why can't. we know that yeah what information are. they getting that that that changes. their mind maybe it's not information. maybe it's. money and I have that same thought. meaning whatever information they're giv. they're getting is perhaps a moneyed. piece of. information meaning a lot of money has.

gone. into telling the president that whatever. that is I mean back to sorry yeah I got. the security versus diplomacy running. through my mind I mean I I think we kind. of. I kind of talked about it a little bit. at the beginning and I I think if you. want. to because essentially we're talking. about no nukes worldwide mhm starting. here.

mhm I I think. the the only way I could see that. happening is by influencing the. military-industrial complex companies. with money to develop better defense. systems to develop the Next Generation. weapon maybe that is AI I don't know but. but you have to have something that. defeats nuclear.

capabilities and or something that's. more powerful than a nuke to add to your. Arsenal that doesn't necessarily need to. be mass destruction maybe it's I mean. it's it's it's I don't know what's. possible and I'm not a physicist and I'm. not an inventor maybe we could get our. buddy Chris Beck on here and he'll tell. us but uh but you know maybe it's maybe. it's some type of a laser weapon from. space maybe who knows you know but I I.

think that's the only. viable way that we could we. could essentially get rid of our nuclear. program is is by better better defense. systems that's that that that is Pro. to work and a more capable weapon system. that is that that you know that and so. what's interesting and problematic is at. the end of that statement which you just.

when you're thinking that sounds then. you realize wait a minute now I'm caught. in the nuclear deter now I'm caught in. the military-industrial complex Loop and. the deterrence Loop which seems to be a. moneyed again a a loop that's of an an. Empire of money an Empire of Industry. wants to exist as a paradox the directed. The the laser weapons by the way are a. massive program at the defense. department they're called directed. energy. weapons and when I was asking about that.

like why what makes them more. powerful and I got a great answer so I'm. just going to share it with you cuz it's. like it seems so hard to comprehend. sometimes like laser weapons but but it. was the inventor of the laser who shared. this with me Charles towns who died at. the age of 99 and gave me his last. interview at like age. 97 still clear as AEL and. speed so a laser moves at the speed of.

light mhm so that even shortens the 33. minute ballistic. window you could have a laser weapon on. the. moon and you're talking about less than. a second mhm. so but then you have the problem Oh. laser weapons aren't any kind of. solution for anything having to do with. no nukes it's just a whole different set. of weapons for the military industrial. complex to promote and build.

and then watch the other side promote. and build and so you have to have new. systems it's the self-licking ice cream. cone as they call it at DARPA yeah so. the no nukes idea I really do think. exists and I'll end with you know and I. want to get this in because I was. influenced by the the nuke Expo I was. influenced by meeting the Physicians. against nuclear weapons by meeting. people who survived an atomic bomb and.

by hearing them talk about how this is. possible to reduce nuclear weapons and. they use the word taboo and they and and. I thought that was interesting me who. loves narrative it just a the simple oh. right. biological weapons have become taboo no. one sits around and says like our. arsenal of Bubonic plague weapons is. better than Your. Arsenal and we need some more and we.

need to update them and we need better. Delivery Systems and faster no one says. that they say my God a Bubonic plague. weapon are you. insane and what the. doctors and the humanitarians. are attempting to do which is a very. Noble effort is put. taboo on nuclear weapons demonstrate. how horrific they are to. people and then begin the reduction from.

all the. nations and they can say ideally to zero. perhaps the pragmatist would say at some. point you okay maybe everybody keeps a. few is the world going to end with a few. nuclear weapons well certainly not with. the same assurity than with thousands of. them how do you do that how do you put. how do you label. them how do you label them taboo yeah.

how do you start that I mean listen it. was a great honor to have some of these. people say to. me great job thank you for writing the. book you just condensed down and made. our our job a little bit easier which is. not what I intended me who was worried. about fear mongering in airor quotes why. I asked all of my sources I mean this. book is frightening people read it the. Amazon reviews are like oh my God I read.

it in one sitting because I had to know. how it end how it. ended but. then on this idea of taboo and so at the. at the convention I met a doctor named. Dr Carlos. umana and he is part of the intern he's. a part of a group of Physicians that are. working to get rid of nuclear weapons. and he himself was a recipient of the. Nobel Peace Prize in.

2017 and he said to me that he and his. colleagues were going to meet the pope. on May. 10th and he asked me if I would inscribe. a copy of nuclear wor a. scenario for the. pope as a gift so the pope could read it. and in a condensed. manner understand what nuclear weapons. do to. people and writing that out was pretty.

cool that is that's. incredible so you don't know what will. happen on your journey in life if you. just keep showing up yeah no. kidding well wow. wow is it has that happened May 10th. they meet with him but I did write the. inscription you know to his Holiness. comma Pope. Francis oh man that is so cool.

congratulations that's you know I had to. Google that yeah what do you how do. you right you can't know everything I. didn't know how to address the pope yeah. yeah wow that is uh that's really cool. that is that is uh that's something. congratulations that. is very. cool well. Annie this is uh this has been a.

fascinating discussion and um we were. going to dive into some more topics but. off camera uh I had expressed how much I. love talking to you and how much I'm. have how how I love this conversation. and I don't think it would do this. interview Justice. to try to compile some of your other. work into this episode and so we'll keep. it at nuclear war with with a little bit. of UFO stuff and um and I can't wait to.

have you back thank so much looking. forward to that so it was an honor to. have you here it was an honor to be here. thank you what a show you have and. congratulations to you on the m. massive viewership. listenership getting the word out. helping people to realize we're all so. much more alike than different thank you. that means a lot and so I can't wait to. see you again your book all your social.

everything will be linked in the. description so everybody go by nuclear. war a scenario and uh Annie I love this. conversation I love talking to you and. uh I can't wait to see you again thank. you. [Music]. much history economics the great works.

of literature the meaning of the US. Constitution did you study these things. in school probably not or even if you. did maybe it's time for a refresher time. and Technology have changed a lot and. that's why it's important to learn the. fundamentals that's why I'm excited that. Hillsdale College is offering more than. 40 free online courses and the most. important and enduring subjects you can. learn about the works of CS Lewis the. stories of the Book of Genesis the. meaning of the US Constitution the rise.

and fall of the Roman Republic or the. history of the ancient Christian church. with Hillsdale College's online courses. all available for free that's right free. I personally recommend you sign up for. ancient Christianity in this 11 lecture. course you'll study the inspiring. stories of Christ in the first four. centuries of Christianity the course is. self-paced so you can start whenever and. wherever go right now to hillsdale.edu.

SRS to enroll there's no cost and it's. easy to get started that's Hillsdale. edu SRS to register no matter where. you're watching Shan Ryan Show from if. you get anything out of this please like. comment subscribe and most importantly. share this everywhere you possibly can. and if you're feeling extra generous. please leave us review on Apple and. Spotify podcasts.