Alex West - SEAL Team 6: "The Scariest Man on Earth Was Just an Old Man" | SRS #332

Alex West, welcome to the show, man. Thanks for having me, Sean. Thanks for. coming. So, uh, we met like several. years ago, I think, with, uh, >> Taco. >> Yeah. With Dan Cerillo. >> Yeah, we sure did. Yeah. At lunch. And, um, yeah, that was is interesting. Now, here we are a few years later, >> right? >> Yeah. >> How did you know Dan? I was just. curious. I knew Dan from the teams like.

West Coast. We lightly knew each other. but when I moved out here uh to Franklin. he was one of the local team guys and we. just friend of a friend hung out a few. times and it's interesting cuz even. after his passing he had he was helping. out at Lipkcom high school and their. football team and I'm now kind of. mentoring a young guy who's about 19 uh. that Dan was mentoring randomly. >> No way. >> Yeah. So, it wasn't even like it was. passed over. This a friend of a friend, I was talking to this this this guy and.

he's like, "Yeah, did you know Danillo?". And I was like, "Yeah." He's like, "Yeah, he was kind of like a mentor of. mine in high school." And I was like, >> "Cool." Like, small world. Yeah. I love. that dude, man. He was such a great. >> Always in a good mood. >> It was a great guy. Yeah. Great mood. Yeah. Great energy. Such a shame. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I have to say like. what a way to go. You know what I mean? Like it's it sounds weird to say like. I'm happy for him, but. >> I'm happy for him, you know? Like he.

went on a hunting trip with his son. >> Yeah. >> And kids are growing. >> Yeah. >> They're all doing great from what I. understand. >> Yeah. >> Daughter's getting ready to get married. >> Oh, good for her. >> And uh and um Yeah. I don't Yeah. So I. think that's cool. You know what I mean? I think it's uh if there's a way to go, that's the way to do it. Hopefully a. little later in life, but you know what. I mean. But um what a great dude. >> But anyways,

>> God bless you, Dan. >> Yeah. >> So, Alex West, let me give you an. introduction here real quick. Alex West, you're a retired Navy Seal. who served for 20 years and completed 15. combat deployments with Seal Team 3 and. Dev Group's W Red Squadron. In 2011, you. led the assault team during Operation. Neptune Spear, the mission that killed. Osama bin Laden. Months later, the loss. of Extortion 17 in years of combat. trauma brought you to one of the darkest.

periods of your life, ultimately setting. you on a path towards healing and. helping others. While still serving, you. founded One More Wave, a nonprofit. providing adaptive surf adaptive. surfboards and surf therapy to wounded. veterans. And today, you're an associate. mental health therapist here in. Nashville and an advocate for treatment. such as Ibagane, helping veterans, first. responders, and others rebuild their. lives. That's pretty cool, man. Thank.

you. >> You're the first. team guy therapist. Actually, I think. you're the first military therapist. >> Yeah, there's not many of those. >> A few, but yeah. >> Is there? >> Just a few. Yeah, not many. I I I. probably know majority of them. >> I know we're going to get into it, but I. mean, I would imagine there's a pretty big. draw to you being. >> Mhm.

military guy, first responders, law enforcement. I mean, I would think. they would just be like like magnets to. you. Anybody that's seeking, am I right. on that? You're right. And, you know, at. first when I was starting, I thought I. would be all about that population, which I am. However, there's something. in the therapy world called counter. transference, which just means like I. feel those those clients and it's hard. for me to compartmentalize. So, while. yes, I do I love working with those.

populations, I can only allow myself to. do about a quarter of my clients because. it just is so much for me. And I thought. originally it would be that's all I. would see. But now I'm more of a. generalist. So, I see a lot of first. responders, veterans, and then pretty. much everybody else. Uh, which I enjoy. as well. But it has with the veterans, it it really has been um almost nice to. be able to connect with them, especially. the ones that are closed off where they. don't want to see a therapist. And often. times with my background of having.

deployed so often, I can if it's a GWAT, global war and terrorism veteran, I can. just ask them like, "Well, when were you. deployed?" And then they'll mention it. And often times, you know, I might be. like, "Oh, I remember that base. I. remember that gym." or can you remember. they had a pancake bar in that g how did. they get panc and and then all of a. sudden you see the wall just kind of. come down and then they realize like you. know I'm one of them so it it helps a. lot to be able to break down that wall. >> I mean I got a I would have been drawn.

to when I was doing therapy I did what. three and a half years twice a week. >> and uh probably should go back but. I was always looking for somebody that. could relate to the experiences uh that. we had. But now kind of looking back, I. think it's. I I I for me maybe it was better that I. didn't because basically what I want to. ask is do do you find.

how do I say this? Do you find it that. look a lot of guys from our background. they compare services or that it becomes. a competition and I'm I'm just curious. do you. >> do you ever feel that when you're do you. do you feel that? >> Yeah. If there's like a. >> be kind of really hard to compare to. somebody like with what you've been. through. >> Sure. >> In your career path. But I I mean it's. competitive in nature. >> It is. And what I found sometimes,

especially when I was uh with One More. Wave, which I know we'll get to, the. Surfy Nonprofit, I actually didn't share. a lot of my background because I didn't. want any of those clients to compare. themselves to me because it was all. about them. And um so in some respects, I might get a little bit of comparison. from a client here or there, but usually. we can find common ground and just, you. know, a little bit of joking around and. it just like brings it back down. And. we're really just the same person. It. just happens that I was in the Navy. maybe they're in the Army or the Marine. Corps.

>> Um, but it wasn't up until recently um. that I started to open up more about my. background, especially around One more. Wave, cuz I didn't want a veteran to be. like, well, I don't deserve this because. I wasn't a SEAL or a dev group guy or. Delta or whatever. And uh my message to. them was always like, I don't care. We. don't care as an organization. You. served and we're here to heal and you. deserve to heal. >> Wow. That's cool, man. That's cool. Well, we'll get into more of all that. stuff towards the end of the interview, but for starters, everybody gets a gift.

>> Awesome. Nice. Great. Yeah, the famous gummy bears. >> Thanks. I'll definitely be chewing on. these later. >> Right on. Right on. And then uh I got a. Patreon account. It's a community that. we built and uh to be honest, they're. the they're the reason that I get to sit. down here with you today. uh they've. been with me since the beginning when I. was doing this in the attic of my house. and. >> and uh they've supported us the whole. way. So they get the opportunity to ask. every guest a question. This is from Ian.

Lane. When you're sitting in the surf. with an amputee or a guy fighting the. darkest kind of PTSD, what's the single. most powerful thing you've seen the. ocean do that no amount of traditional. therapy or medication has ever matched? >> Great question, Ian. One experience that comes to mind was. actually the moment um that I felt like. the universe was like, "You need to. start this nonprofit." And I was with a. young Marine. He was maybe 25 years old.

Uh he had lost his leg below the knee. And we were sitting in Delmare in. Southern California. And it was just. this beautiful, beautiful Southern. California day. And he had this huge. smile on his face. And I just looked at. him thinking, he's smiling because it's. beautiful out. And I said that I was. like, "Wow, it's it is beautiful out.". And he's like, "Yeah, it is." But that's. not why I'm smiling. I'm smiling because. when I'm in the ocean, I'm no longer. getting stared at as the guy missing a. leg. And when I catch a wave, there's no. more pain, even if it's for 5 10.

seconds. And um and then I remember. watching him actually catch a wave and. then you know then he kind of wipes out. at the end and comes up for error and. there's a whole group of guys that are. just cheering him on just like like like. hell like Yeah, that was a great. wave. And then just seeing this primal. smile on this guy, you could tell was. struggling right beforehand. And then. and then he explained of why he loved. surfing, but I could tell he was still. closed off and then caught that wave.

And it's almost like a lightning bolt. just went right into him to just like. almost, you know, bring him back to life. with a smile. And so that is one moment. that sticks out to me. I'm sure as I. think I can start I'll come up with a. dozen more. That's the first one that. comes to mind. How's he doing today? >> You know what? I have that was in 2015. I have lost track of him. That is a. great question. I hope he's doing great. and I hope he's still surfing. >> Right on, man. Right on. Well, let's get.

to you. >> Yeah, sure. >> You ready? >> I'm ready. >> It's going to be a long one. >> Yeah. >> Where'd you grow up? >> So, I was born in Lady Brand, South. Africa. And I grew up in a small country. called Lutu, which is an African. mountain kingdom inside of South Africa. And it was during the apartheid. Um, and. so the Lutu was a home to the African. National Congress, which is the faction. that Nelson Mandela uh belonged to. So. it was a black independent free country.

My parents, my dad worked for the World. Bank trying to bring clean drinking. water to a billion people, part of that. in Africa. and my mom was a school. teacher. But the reason why I was born. in South Africa and not Lutu is because. the hospital was better. And so they. drove across my mom went to labor, drove. across um the Misero Bridge. And there's. a story that she likes to tell where. they couldn't even get over because. there's a bunch of of livestock coming. the other way. My dad's just like. honking the horn, wanting to get out, fight the, you know, the the the herder.

And my mom's like, "Get in the car. I'm. having a kid." So anyway, they they get. to the hospital and even though the. hospital was better, my mom they didn't. have any medication or any epidural or. anything for her. It was just kind of. straight up and they gave my dad a flice. water because there's um flies. everywhere. So I grew up in um Lutu and. then uh we moved to uh we lived there. for about 5 years. >> Were they American? >> They're American. Yeah. My my dad both. my dad's from Erie, Pennsylvania and my.

mom is from Pittsburgh and and I think. it was my dad when he was just a very. adventurous guy and my mom just followed. him and she had the adventure in her too. and they actually lived in Saudi Arabia. before they moved to Lutu and then from. there we lived there for I lived there. at least for about 5 years. I think they. lived there for about seven and then. moved to Cairo Egypt. >> Do you remember it? >> I don't recall too much of Lutu just cuz. I was young. 1 to 5. But I did have a a.

nanny um named Sophia and she was from. the Zulu tribe and uh my parents both. worked and so during the day Sophia. could spoke really broken English. So. she spoke to me in the local like Zulu. language and I would watch cartoons in. Africants which for the listeners is. like a Dutch kind of um based language. in South Africa and then my parents. would come home speaking in English. And. so my mom being a teacher was worried. about me cuz I was piecing together all. of these languages and struggling to.

communicate. And so she was always. worried that I would I might have to get. held back in school. Um but we would end. up moving um out of uh uh Lutu to uh. Cairo, Egypt. Um after that there was a. stint in Pennsylvania for a year too in. that but mostly we were in Africa till I. was about 10. Holy cow. >> Yeah. >> In Cairo, you said? >> In Cairo. >> How was that? >> It was awesome. I loved living in Cairo.

as a kid. I I felt that was like a real. home for me. And I went to an. international school where there's a lot. of it was American curriculum, but there. was uh kids from embassies from all over. the world. So, I had a lot of, you know, friends that were like French or German, Israeli, you know, from other any you. name it, whatever the country was. cuz. that school was kind of like a nice a. decent private school to get a decent. education. So, a lot of the embassy. people would be there. But what what I.

realized later that instilled in me was. a lot of core components of like how I. see the world of not judging people from. different um countries or languages or. cultures and actually embracing it. And. I didn't realize it at the time, but. that was just the world I lived in. Um, and that would help me later on in the. SEAL teams working with partner forces. or even as a therapist just to not judge. somebody if they come in and look. different than me or talk different, have different values, just to see them. more as like, okay, I can look past. that. Let me just look at you as a. person. >> That's interesting. What what was your.

dad doing in. >> Yeahypt? >> He was working for a uh an engineering. company called Black & Beach, which uh. was based out of Kansas City, but they. were doing the water treatment, but kind. of in the same theme of clean drinking. water. They're doing a lot of water. treatment. One of the largest water. treatment programs at the time in the. world. Um it was in Cairo and that was. his company was trying to treat water, whether it was waste water, drinking. water, um things like that. And then my. mom was a school teacher at that school.

>> Only child? >> No. Uh I have a sister Helen. She's. about four and a half years younger. She was born that year we were in. Pennsylvania. She was born in the. States, but we would she'd come with us. obviously to Cairo. >> How was it over then? What would you do. as a kid? Yeah, I would a lot of. standard kid stuff, you know, riding. bicycles, uh, you know, BMXs around um, just like you would in the States, at. least in the 80s, you know, and so we.

would have these little crews of kids. running around in BMX's in this. neighborhood called Motti and I went to. this school, Cairo American College, and. um, and so we would just ride our bikes. around. We would I remember play. baseball. I was always into baseball and. sports and it was a normalish childhood. But what was unique about it and which. I'm very fortunate is for like field. trips we would go to the pyramids which. is crazy, right? Or we would go to the.

Cairo Museum or some other artifact. So, it was very I feel very blessed that at. that age, you know, at 10 years old, you're going to the pyramids on a field. trip and just to be able to grasp the. gravity of of that and just have that. life experience was um very novel and I. feel fortunate. >> Yeah, that's pretty cool. So, it wasn't. uh. >> it wasn't in Arabic, it was in English. >> Was it dangerous over there? You rode. around? >> It was it was my whole life in Africa.

was dangerous. When we were in Lutu, there was a car bomb that went off on. our street. We had to have tall security. walls with broken glass and, you know, wet cement to dry. We had armed guards, guard dogs. Um, and then when we were in. Cairo, there was a big um riot that. broke out between so the army, the when. you get conscripted in Egypt to either. go to the army or the law enforcement. with law enforcement is more of like. AK-47 type thing. It's not like a beat. cop here in the States. And so there was.

a dispute between who was getting paid. and and all of this. And so they broke. out into a riot almost like a gunfight. And I remember being at school on a. tennis court just playing kickball or. something like that. I was probably six. or seven. And you could hear a bunch of. machine gun fire going off. And there. was uh sporadic machine gun fire that. was coming all over the place and. getting scooped up off the tennis court. as a little kid just not knowing what. was going on by a teacher. And then they. put us in this big auditorium, called.

our parents to help get us out. And I. remember asking a teacher like, "What is. going on?" And her just saying, and when. I think back on it, she's nervous and. just saying, "It's just fireworks. It's. kind of like the Egyptian Fourth of. July." And then just thinking like, "Oh, okay." And then for the next two weeks, we were in lockdown in our apartment in. Cairo where they would have hours that. you could go get groceries, but you had. to stay. the the State Department was. telling all the American citizens that. you have to stay in your apartment and. lock down until this thing calms down.

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Vietnam veteran, I remember him being. very calm in all of that. I don't know. whether it was his past experience in. war or whatever it is, but um I knew my. mom was very concerned and that was a. big reason why we ended up moving to the. states when I was 10. I think she was. just over the the madness of Africa, especially in the '8s. You know, there. wasn't obviously internet. You know, you. you might call get people call long. distance every now and then to family. members, but you just didn't know much.

that was going on. you'd listen to the. BBC radio for news and um but outside of. that we were just in a in a pocket of. the world that was might as well be on. the moon. >> and so I think she wanted us to have a. American safe upbringing and my dad. wanted to stay overseas I wanted to stay. overseas I remember that's where all my. friends were and everything and but I. was 10 I didn't know and then uh we. would end up moving to Kansas City um. Overland Park specifically a suburb of.

Kansas City. >> Wow That's where I was born. Really? Blue Springs. >> No way. I didn't know that. Small world. We used to play Blue Springs in uh high. school sports. >> Right on. >> Wow. So, I mean, were you scared as a. kid? >> I when that stuff will go down over. there, >> you know? I don't I remember just being. exciting. I mean, there but it was. Africa is just wide open. I remember. even stepping stopping at a uh a. checkpoint. We used to go to this place. called Shmelshake which is on the Sinai.

Peninsula because there's world-class. scuba diving and my parents were scuba. divers and so we would drive through the. desert and even stopping at one of these. checkpoints and I remember a guard who. was drunk pulled a gun out and held it. to my sister's head and my dad gunned it. basically get off the X and so there's. all of this like craziness going on. >> Holy. >> Yeah. Right. And this is all happening. before you know 10 and younger. And um. and I so my how I saw the world was. interesting at that point. And when I.

think back on it like wow that's a lot. for a young boy. >> I remember I got beat beat up by a bunch. of Iranian kids because I was American. >> Um and and I did I was so confused. I. remember they kind of because they were. all at the school but they were older. and I remember them kind of surrounding. me on my BMX and kicking over the BMX. I. mean and my dad was so pissed. Yeah, I. remember him wanting to go beat up all. their dads and it never happened. But um. yeah, so there's like it was. interesting. It was very raw. Africa was.

very raw. >> Sounds like it. >> Yeah. >> Your dad was a Vietnam vet. >> He was he was um he was attack P. So um. for the listeners that don't know, a guy. a radio man that would call in air. strikes and he was attached to the first. of the seventh air. So Kuster's old unit. uh for 6 months and then he was did six. months as an adviser for the South. Vietnamese army where um essentially he. was an adviser group going out with the. South Vietnamese Arvin or Marines.

>> Are your parents still alive? >> No, my dad passed away um in 2014 from. uh esophageal cancer. Um mostly he from. his he struggled with Vietnam his whole. life and um and drank and I remember. also Agent Orange. He attributes it to. Agent Orange whether it was Agent Orange. alcoholism or likely a combination of. the two. Um he passed away and but my. mom is still alive and my sister as. well.

>> Were you were you pretty close with your. dad? >> I was. It was a tough upbringing in a. sense like all my basic Maslo's. hierarchy of food, shelter, you know, all that was taken care of. But um as I. mentioned the Vietnam War, it never left. our home. And um and I remember the. deeper he went into his alcoholism and. trauma, um he and my parents would get. divorced, but me being his son, I always.

felt a lot like I always felt like he. was my dad. And so I was always around. him and looked up to him. But the um the. war never ended for sure. And and I. think that's where my own passion for. mental health started. I remember even. as a kid holding space for my dad is he. was drunk and he would just tell these. horrible war stories from Vietnam. And. but still just like knowing that if I. wasn't there to hold space for him, he. had no one else. And which is a strange.

thing to think about when you're like 12. years old. And um but it would get bad. There was times that um you know I would. call um crisis and suicide hotlines to. be able to talk to a safe adult. Um. >> yeah, just to be a but I had the. wherewithal to know um that at least if. I called them that it was safe and that. um. >> and I remember them asking like well is. he hitting you and just or touching you. or anything? He wasn't. He wasn't. He. was just really troubled by the war and.

um and so they couldn't do anything. Not. that I wanted them to do anything. I. just wanted an adult that was safe to. talk to. >> What if you don't mind? >> Yeah. >> What what would be happening? >> Like what kind? >> So there was no abuse. >> No. What would happen? We had a. furnished basement and I remember he. would go down there and and he would. have like a big drink um likely like. vodka and maybe soda or something like. that and and he would go down there and. I just knew I remember staring down the.

stairs and just thinking like I know. he's struggling and I know he and my mom. were at odds. um you know obviously that. wasn't a great environment for her. So. they're on the cusp of divorce and um. and then my sister and my mom had a. tight like connection. So it was like. them and then it was almost like my dad. and I and I just remember thinking I. I'll go down there uh with my dad even. though I I didn't want to but I knew he. needed it. He didn't have anyone else. He didn't have a therapist, friends, things like that. It's almost like his.

trauma had just he's just isolated. and. I would go down and then he would just. vent me about um you know air strikes. and things that went wrong, hung bombs. that hit other units or getting shot in. his radio. Um all different just in. really dark things too and and just. knowing like I this is horrible but I. know he he I need to just sit here and. hear it. So, I had like a natural.

instinct to want to help um impact. suffering even from a young age. What what what would you talk to the the. hotline people about? >> I would just tell them, you know, I you. know, my dad is saying all these things. He's kind of out of control. Um like I'm. scared. And they would ask like the. questions of you know is he hitting you. or the after affformentioned things and.

I would just say no and they would be. like okay you can stay on as long as you. like and I remember those social workers. would they would stay on and then they. would tell me you can always call back. and u at one point when my parents did. get divorced I remember I was struggling. I was maybe 13 and my mom did get me. into therapy but it was you know we were. middle class didn't in the middle of a. divorce didn't have that much money. I. wouldn't say we were, you know, worried. about food or anything like that. But. once the insurance rounds of maybe 10.

sessions ran out, then that was kind of. it. And honestly, I at like that age, I. was just holding it all in and I was. just mad, but just pissed at the world. And I think that would be part of the. what I needed later on in life to get. through different selections and buds. and all of that was just to ride that. anger and that pain. Would he remember. the conversations when he was sober? >> I don't think so. Or or or he was. ashamed and would just keep drinking. I.

mean, there was times too where he would. pick me up from sports and um and be so. drunk that as we're driving home, we'd. be weaving in and out. I remember at 13. yelling, just screaming for him to pull. over. And finally, he did. And um I. ended up driving us home. And um and I. remember being so nervous that cuz I'd. never really driven before. I I remember. at one point my dad took me in a parking. lot once just like, "Oh, you might get. your driver's permit wide open, you.

know, like empty Walmart parking lot. Like, let's just kind of do the basics.". And that was and that only happened like. once maybe. And that was my only. experience driving. And then I'm on a. not a highway, but just a busy road and. just like shaking on the steering wheel. um trying to drive us home safely. Um but that was um the impact of war. Um. like I've been somehow affected by war. um since the beginning.

>> I saw it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. What. why did you decide to go into the. military? >> It's a good question. I even though all. that was going on with my dad, you know, he was my hero and um and we did connect. when he wasn't drinking and um and he. would speak of his time in the military, not just in Vietnam. Um, and I always. looked up to the service aspect of it.

and and within our family too, we've. I've had a family member in every major. American war, which isn't that uncommon, but you know, whether it was Vietnam, Korea, World War II, World War I, all. the way back to the Revolutionary War. Like my sister is a daughter of the. Revolution. Uh, none of it was like the. general or the none of it. It was all. just a bunch of grunts, you know, bluecollar guys like, you know what I. mean? Like what? Okay, I'll serve. But, um, I think there was some of that. my. um I was and I was I like the idea of.

the milit and I started hearing about. special operations and the you know the. hardest training in the world whether. that's true or not but at least I. remember hearing that of like the SEAL. teams and being like wow I want to be. able to prove something to someone cuz I. felt like I wasn't anyone especially. from some of that trauma and feeling. when I moved from uh Africa to the. states I always felt a little different. a little off I mean I was American And I. but I didn't know any of the pop culture. stuff um because we've been in Africa.

and that was before the internet. So I. was a little weird to be honest, right? I I didn't know basics of American pop. culture. Uh I would end up being fine. and assimulating you know it took a. little bit of time but I always wanted. to just go leave get away leave to get. away from um you know kind of my dad in. a sense which is ironic but and prove. that I was worth it. I was able to. accomplish something. And so when I. heard about the SEAL teams, the first.

was the movie Navy Seals with Charlie. Sheen, like a lot of guys from our generation, right? And um and I that's the first I I. saw I was like, that's kind of. interesting. And um and then I read uh. Dick Marso's Rogue Warrior and just. thought like, wow, that's really cool. And then when I was a junior in high. school, my cousin Pete Scobell, who's. actually a guest of yours, >> uh I went to his bud's graduation and um. we cuz we're first cousins, but we have. a small family. and Pete and I are.

different people but alike in a lot of. ways and almost like brothers and I went. out to his buds graduation and watched. them graduate and just saw the. camaraderie and hearing the stories and. and what's ironic is that a lot of those. guys that I met when I was in high. school um I'd become friends with or. teammates later on in the teams but I um. was very uh I was a that was a profound. effect on me when I saw all that and. then when I was getting ready to um make. a decision to whether I was going to go.

like try to play junior college baseball. or get a job or go to a local Kansas. school. Um none of that really moved the. needle for me. I I just was like I'm. going to just go for it and um ended up. joining at 17 with my parents. permission. How old were you when your parents. got divorced? >> Um I was 13. >> How did that affect you? >> It affected me a lot. Uh because then my. you know my dad moved out, my mom's mom, my grandmother moved in and it was just.

um you know it was three women. It was. my sister and then it was me. Uh my dad. was had this kind of like shitty. apartment and he ended up getting fired. from his job um because of his. alcoholism and PTSD. And so um I yeah. that it affected me big time. I was mad. I was able to assimilate in school. I. was kind of a jock. I guess I'd play. sports, but I really wasn't in that the. jock crew or whatever. I just like.

sports and it was good for me because. especially um like football, I could. take out a lot of my anger, you know, and hitting people. Um and and I was. also a swimmer. I think that just got. out a lot of energy out of me. And then. I played baseball, which was my like. real love. But um it affected me in that. I believe my self-confidence was low. Um. and I um I started probably some. struggles with mental health back then. Um but I I did have friends. I'm.

fortunate that I had friends and did fit. in. But it was a um it was a tough when. I reflect back on it. Um at the time I. didn't know I was struggling. But now. when I look back on it I knew I was. really struggling, >> man. I. I'm sure you reflected back a lot back. on your dad. I mean, do you do you feel. like. why do you think he was so drawn to. Africa?

I think he was. drawn to the excitement of Africa. I. think it moved the needle. he could feel. like a lot of people struggling with. trauma especially veterans where finding. something that where you can feel some. excitement whether it's with you know a. hobby or lifestyle I believe he found. the rawness of Africa made him feel. especially in the places we lived um. where it was kind of kind of out there.

in a way. >> that's what I was going to say. >> I mean plus you hear a lot about that. generation you know never really felt. like they fit in when they got home and. then and then the adrenaline and all. that. I mean, it's. >> Yeah. Yeah. I feel to this day for him. and I remember um he would always when I. come back from deployments later on, he. was in uh PTSD groups for the VA and he. would always be like, "Hey, will you. come meet in the parking lot, meet all.

my buddies? We're all a bunch of Vietnam. vets." And so I would go hang out with. them in the parking lot and um and he. would just like show me off and he was. so proud because at the time, you know, I was a sealer at dev group and. deployments. And I remember one of his. friends in particular, just to showcase. the guys he was with um introduced. himself as Magnet. And I was like, "Excuse me, Magnet." And. I'm like, "No, seriously, what's your. name?" He's like, "It's Magnet." And I. was like, "Okay." And I was like, "Well, why why do they call you Magnet?" And he.

was a door gunner. in a Huey and just. had he had the reputation that he'd. always get shot down and so that was his. nickname was magnet ass. And so so so it. was like so I'm like you know commonly. at the time my dad was living in the. Tampa area go in the the VA parking lot. and whenever I'd go visit and I would. hang out with some of his buddies after. they got out of group and and hang out. with guys like my dad and Magnet and. amongst others and and it was even then. I remember thinking man I wish there was. something more for these guys um. especially the Vietnam generation.

because uh a PTSD diagnosis wasn't given. or even existed until 1980. So a lot of these guys especially from. that generation which I know this is. known or if people don't you know they. were frowned upon that generation of. veterans of what they did and what that. unpopular war and then when they came. back there was not much for them as far. as treatment um to include that PTSD. diagnosis and so the majority of them. just all just drank and um which a lot. of our generation did too perhaps not as.

much but that's all those guys had. And. um and then so what I was seeing in that. parking lot was a lot of guys that were. coming in recovery um that were going. all they had was um that group and each. other which um I remember even noticing. it then when I was you know in my early. 30s late 20s. Yeah. >> Where were you in your early were you. over a dev group? >> Yeah I would have been over a dev group. at that time. >> So what's going through your head? I. mean when you're witnessing this.

>> I'm thinking is that going to be me? Is. that going to be my friends? Um because. I started to especially at that stage. the wars were turning into something. that they they weren't. It was no longer. Afghan invasion. Um and some sometimes. when I'd visit it was post the bin Laden. raid, right? So it's like why are we. still in Afghanistan? Um in Iraq too it. was you know you start getting all the. information that there was lies about. you know why we went to war. So in my mind I was like, "Oh, this is.

like that's my generation's version of. of that is like their version of the. Gulf of Tonkan resolution." And uh and. so I just I started noticing some of. that and then worrying, however, I would. just compartmentalize it. So I was. probably falling into the same loop as a. lot of those guys where just. compartmentalizing like I'll get to it. Um but I I remember noticing like is. this going to be myself and my friends. or generation of veterans? Uh, I. remember noticing it then in that. parking lot.

>> So, just um. I'll bet there's a lot of kids that are. going through what you went through as a. kid right now. Yeah. >> From the G-Watt. What advice would you have for a kid. that's got an old man that's dealing. with that? >> I love that you asked that question. The. advice I would have to those kids if. they're listening, one, you're not. alone. two, there's help, right? It's. okay to reach out for help. And. especially,

you know, young boys that from our. generation before, it was always like if. you fall down and skin your knee, like. suck it up. Don't cry. Don't show any. emotion. And I would tell those kids and. any man that's listening that like that. doesn't work. You know, it's okay to. show emotion. It's okay to ask for help. because if you just push it down, all. it's going to do is harden and calcify. and then you're just going to be a hard. person and you're not going to be your. ability to experience love and and hope.

and laughter and and joy is going to. start going down. So, um and also the. people around you, your future kids, wife, friends, all of that, too. So. asking for help, getting into exercise, um getting in a community, whatever that. might be, and and avoiding if you can, leaning into things like, you know, drinking um as as best you can. I get. it. There's um a lot of, you know, probably pressure from like teenage kids. and all of that. I understand that. However, that leads to nowhere and that.

you can find a lot of that in nature and. sports and community and friendships and. that it's um and the behaviors and. habits that start then could compound. later on. And also that your dad's or. mom um who are veterans from those wars. that you want that um they love you. It's just that right now they're. struggling just like my dad loved me. I. knew he did. I I I still feel his spirit. um and how proud he is um of me. It's.

just complex. But just to know that even. though their parents might be, you know, drunk or yelling at them, abusive, at at. the core, that's basically them just. reflecting their pain. And it's on them. to be able to do what they can do to. themselves of just all the. affformentioned things of reaching out. to get help and friends and try to avoid. substances if you can. Yeah, I'd like to add um. this might sound kind of cheesy, but I.

would add. maybe watch this episode or something. like this with with your old man or or. with your mom because. sometimes it takes something like this. to for them to come to the real. realization of what's really going on, you know, and how it's impacting their. kids. And uh this is a way to do it. where you don't actually have to tell. them anything. >> Absolutely. I'm glad you said that because I I do.

think that would be a great thing to do. for what you just mentioned where it. must it will be hard for that parent to. share all of that just like it was for. my dad. However, to be able to sit down. and watch it and then maybe be ready for. a question or two or a I can relate to. that. Um I think that you're spot on. with that. >> Thank you. Yeah. >> Do you think that you. did you join the military for you or did. you join the military for your dad?

>> I think I a little bit of both. I think. I joined it for me to prove that I was. worth something. Um, however, a lot of. that stemmed from uh the experience with. my dad. Um, I also did want to make him. proud. Uh I know he I remember when I. was at 17 needed asked him for his. permission like hey the recruiter needs. you to sign this and him saying like are. you sure like he was he was like I don't. know if that's a good idea you know.

maybe can you at least wait you know go. to college for a year get a job for a. year travel whatever just do something. so when you join you're like 1920 you're. as opposed to 17 18 um I kept pressing. him though and and he did sign and so I. think part of me was wanted just him to. be proud of me, but there was also a. part of me wanting to prove to myself. that I could do something worthwhile. And I would imagine a lot of guys from. our community, especially when I was in.

the teams, a lot of guys had similar. type situations where they just wanted. to prove something because they were. coming from some challenges at home. So, long answer, I think it was a little bit. of both. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. How'd your mom feel about it? >> My mom was scared. She didn't like the. idea uh and um and didn't want to also. and she was saying the same thing like. why don't you just go to college or get. a job or whatever it is and but I was. determined and since my cousin had.

already was in the SEAL teams I would. imagine she just thought and she knew we. were close she just thought like well. I'm going to do the best I can to tell. him I don't want him to go just yet but. I think she finally kind of succumbed to. just like okay I I'll sign it and and I. didn't go to boot camp at 17. I ended up. going at 18, but I got the paperwork. signed at 17. >> Damn, man. >> So, I don't think she was supportive, but in the whole time, even when I would. deploy, I knew it would stress her out. on all my deployments. Um, but I was. just on my own personal mission and I I.

did put her through a lot with all the. deployments and my sister as I reflect. back on it. >> Do you feel like your dad was proud of. you right off the bat just for signing. the papers? >> He was. Yeah. >> And he knew what you were going to do. Yes, he he knew that. Yeah, he knew I. wanted to be a SEAL. >> What year was it? >> This would have been in 97. Um, I joined. the Navy in '98. I went to boot camp in. '98, but if either late 97 or maybe it. was early 98 is when I was still 17 was.

when I signed up. Damn. Yeah. I would. tell my younger self probably to listen. to my parents. If I were to go back and. be like, "Bro, just Yeah. All those. things like college, travel, get a job, whatever. just like live a little bit of. life. It's not the school teams is not. going anywhere. And of course of what. would later transpire with 9/11 of you. know there's going to be enough to go. around but um yeah I just was I was just. focused like I wanted I had to get out. of there. Not that there was like like I.

had to get out there was a little. dramatic but it was like that was I was. focused on wanting to prove that I was. that I was worth something. Yeah. So where do we go from here? So I um before before I joined or. shipped off to boot camp, I from Egypt, I stayed in touch with a really close. friend of mine who his parents were. friends with my parents and his dad. worked at the same company in Kansas. City. So in the summers he would come. back and live essentially with his.

grandparents home but in Kansas City, but we would were like best friends and. so we'd spend all summers together and. then I would I'd get in I'd have jobs. I. worked at like a pizza shop in the mall. or mowed lawn standard kid stuff. I um. worked at a gym and I would save up all. my money and I visited him once in my. sophomore year. So I flew back to Cairo. my sophomore year and hung out for like. a month and then my senior year I flew. back out too uh to as to their. graduation right before I went to Egypt.

I'm sorry. Right before I went to the. Navy and um we ended up actually. climbing a pyramid while we we had done. that. And yeah, we we did. Yeah, we we I. remember and it's illegal, you know, to. do. You're not supposed to do that cuz. people die falling off those pyramids. trying to climb them all the time. But. >> we were just punk kids and we um I. remember. bribed our way. there's guards around. there with AK-47s. and you know nothing a little bit of. cash can't solve.

So we we bribed the guards to kind of. look the other way. And I remember. there's a group of us and it was um if. it wasn't a full moon it was pretty. close to a full moon and we the way you. climb the pyramids at least how we did. You go up the apex or like the edge of. it and each stone is about 4tish tall. and it's limestone so it kind of is. crumbly but you almost do like a muscle. up right so you like push yourself up. and the pyramid we climbed was kioss and. it's about 440 ft. I might get checked.

here, but roughly around 440 ft. And so. there's a lot of those like muscle-ups. going up all the way up the edge. And I. remember seeing it at night almost. climbing into the moon. And on one side. you have Cairo, one of the largest. cities in the world with the Nile going. right by it. And the other is the Sahara. Desert that's just been illuminated um. the sand illuminated by the moonlight. So it was this surreal experience. Yeah. And climbing up. But I remember how. dangerous it was because chunks of this. limestone you're climbing up and they.

would just be like boom boom boom like. right past you and just thinking like we. didn't have any like climbing gear, helmets, I had like running shoes on and. like a t-shirt like and like like pants. or whatever but like yeah but we had the. guts of like and maybe the nativity of. you know a teenager to just go for it. And I remember being at the top of the. pyramid, which is about half the size of. the studio or so, and um and just. standing and watching everything and. just being like, "This is unreal." But.

um we did that and then we ended up. climbing that pyramid with a a a family. friend of one of the guys who owned a. home in Denh in the in Holland. And so. after Egypt, we went to Holland for. about a month and then I flew back to. the States and a month later started. boot camp. >> Right on. >> Yeah. So, you got all the way to the top. of that damn thing. >> Yeah, I would not recommend it. And it's. illegal, so you're you could get in. trouble, but but I would not recommend. it. Most importantly, from a safety. standpoint, like if you asked me today. like, "Let's do it." I'd be like, "Bro,

I will be happy drinking a cup of. coffee, just enjoying the scenery, right from the ground level. Maybe I'll hop on a camel." I don't. know. You know, get a photo op. Who. knows? >> You ever think about how those things. were built? >> I I do. And especially when you're st I. don't know. Have you ever been to the. pyramids? >> I've been to Cairo. I've never been to. the pyramids. >> Yeah, if you I mean, I'd recommend it. I. mean, of course, the touristy thing, but. just from a life experience. Yeah, I. have thought about it. Especially when. you're standing at the base and looking. up at it, you're just like, how the.

do they do this? And of course, you. know, there's the there's a lot of. theories of how. But, um, I could not. help to think that I don't know if man. can pull this off even then. Like, this. is epic to, you know, I can't think of. another word for it. It's like this is. unreal. Especially being thousands of. years old. Like I just What about you? What do you think on the pyramids, >> man? I don't know. I mean, there's two there's two things that kind. of resonate with me. Maybe, but I'm no.

physicist either. >> Sure. >> You know, Chris Beck. >> Yeah. Chris Beck says, I'm going to. butcher this, but he uh he was saying I. think they're built on they're like. right on top of a fault line. I didn't. know that. Interesting. >> I think they're right on top of a fault. line or something and there's there's. like a bed of crystals or something. So. the. >> he says that the ground may always the. ground may always be vibrating and and. the way I kind of understood it and he's.

whatever Chris is out there but he's. also really smart. >> Yeah. And uh you know it's kind of like. if you put a a subwoofer under a table. >> and get it vibrating, you can kind of. you know things will just start moving. without even having to touch it, right? Because the vibrations, >> right? >> And so I think he was kind of saying. that that may have been happening where. >> where the ground is vibrating or. whatever and you can kind of steer these. huge. >> blocks.

without a tremendous amount of force. >> Sure. And then the other thing, and I. haven't interviewed this guy yet. I. probably I'm sure somebody will go get. him now, but yeah, there's another guy. who is out there saying that. maybe they were molded. >> on top of each other. So, they would. take these forms, you know, kind of like. and like a like they would cast. >> interesting the blocks on top of each. other. >> Yeah, that's Yeah, that's the.

>> I don't think they got them up there. with sticks. Yeah, I exactly. And that many of them I. I just, you know, it's like one thing if. it was just something kind of basic, but. something that epic. >> and how precise they they were with each. other. I mean, it's off by they're not. off. They're like precisely planted. It's crazy. >> But then there's all the tunnels and. passageways and inside of. >> I've actually been in them on tourist. version of it and it you want to talk. about claustrophobia. I mean, I'm not a. very claustrophobic person, but I felt.

it in there where I was like, "Okay, this is Can't imagine being some like. guy a couple thousand years ago with. like a torch crawling around in there. It's just like, okay, I'm Yeah, that's. I'm good on that. I'll do that once.". >> Are you an alien? You believe in aliens? >> I do believe in aliens. Um, I just can't. imagine there not being something else. out there. It's just so vast. Um, but I. I wouldn't say I'm like full-blown. conspiracy. like I'm up late at night, but I do feel that there's there's.

probably something out there. What about. you? >> I don't think there is. >> Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I've really I. did a lot of a lot of I've done a lot of. episodes on it, but I just. >> I don't think there is. >> Sure. >> I think it's just us. >> That could be possible, too. But I mean, I don't have an experience where I'm. like absolutely that's that. It's my. thought is just more of it's so vast. perhaps. Yeah.

>> So, let's get back to So, you you joined. the Navy. What did what did you do? What did you. go straight to Buds or. >> No, I went to So, I joined the Navy in '. 98 and then went to radio men a school. and uh so for the listeners, it's a. essentially you needed a job that to go. in those days in the SEAL teams to be. able to um go to the SEAL team. So a job. basically I got trained in ship. communications. So satellite. communications, highfrequency.

communications. um in the beginnings of some like. computer IT type stuff. And that. particular job would end up being an IT. called it in the Navy. But uh I went. through radium in a school and then. checked into Buds in uh uh January. February of 99 um when I was 18 and then. that started the the Buds Seal journey. How was that? >> It was hard. You know, some guys are all. like have bravado like it wasn't as hard. as I thought. But for me, I was like, it.

was pretty hard. Uh really, okay. Wow. What's going on. with me? But I, you know, also it was. hard. I believe for being that young, you know, I was 18, 19 in buds. And were. you also young in buds? >> Yeah, I think it was. >> same age. >> Yeah, I same I joined it signed the. papers at 17 and then I was in buds at. 18. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, same thing. I I remember. being really intimidated by, you know, actually seeing a SEAL instructor and. just being like, "Oh, that's a SEAL.

Whoa." And that's one of the. instructors. And then being around. probably a lot of the same story a lot. of guys tell is, you know, guys that are. like division one athletes or just these. guys that could be on the cover of a. fitness magazine. And uh and then just. looking at them and just being like, I. don't look like that. Um I can't run. like that or you know, what am I doing. that I do not? And I'm still like the, you know, the equivalent of a freshman. in college type guy, you know. So, and. and I came in with kind of low. self-esteem anyway. And so seeing that,

just thinking like, wow, all these guys. are like Adonises. I don't know if I. belong here. Uh, and then really. intimidated by everything. But I just. kept showing up. I think I was a very. average uh BUD student and but I just I. think just kept showing up and I just. did the advice that one of the. instructors said which isn't just said. often. It was just make it to the next. meal, right? So for the listeners, it's. just if something's overwhelming and I I. use this today in my everyday life and I. use with my clients as a therapist that.

if things feel so overwhelmed and you. can't do it, just make it to the next. meal. Like really truncate it down to. something you can do. And if you can't. make it to the next meal, just make it. to the top of the hour. if you can't. make it at the top of the hour, just. make it five more minutes. And and. that's just what I did. I just did what. they told me. I remember one instructor. saying that just being like, "Okay." And. then I just started using that and then. next thing you know, um I just kind of. kept progressing through Buds. >> Where was your cousin at when he got. there? >> He was at Seal Team 8 and um and then he.

had applied and got into the Naval. Academy. So actually when I was in Buds, he was at Seal Team 8 and and at the. time, you know, that was like Kosovo and. all that was going on. So that was like. the place to be. So I remember being. jealous be like, "Oh my gosh, she's. actually doing the thing.". >> Were you guys keeping in touch? >> Yeah. Yeah, we were. And in those days, you know, it was letters. Uh I didn't. have a there's no cell phone, so I'd. have, you know, uh quarters and and pay. phones, calling cards, like old school. But yeah, we did keep in touch. And he.

would um he was a source of support for. me of just like writing me encouraging. letters and things like that. And um I. think he even visited Buds once. For. some reason he was out there and um and. then I got some some heat from it, the. instructors when they kind of found out. I was related to a seal. I was trying to. keep that under wraps. >> They didn't know. >> They didn't really know cuz we had. different last names. And uh but I remember a couple of them. put it together. Uh and this one guy, instructor Reno and Alberto was a great. guy, great instructor, very very tough.

but very fair. And I remember him giving. me a little extra love. In a good way, though, like as far as a little extra. attention, but it wasn't bad. He looked. out for me, too. I make a thousand decisions a day. running the Shawn Ryan Show. Calls, interviews, production, everything is a. decision. So, when I train, I don't want. to walk around and build a workout from. scratch. I want to know exactly what I'm. doing, get to work, and move on. That's. what I like about Ladder. ladder gives.

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functional fitness. Whether you train at. home or in the gym, and your progress is. tracked automatically, so the app. remembers your weights, reps, and sets. That's the value for me. Ladder removes. the guesswork. I'm not deciding what to. do next. I'm not guessing on reps or. progression. I just follow the plan and. focus on putting in the work. Remove the. guesswork with Ladder and get a real. coach in your ear telling you exactly. what to do for every workout. No. thinking, everything planned for you. If. you have an iPhone, head to.

ladder.fit/srs. and take a quick quiz to find your. perfect ladder plan. Use my link and get. a free 7-day trial with no credit card. and $10 off your first month if you. join. What's the best piece of advice Pete. gave you while you were in there? >> I remember him saying kind of what I was. already saying, like you'll see guys. that are, you know, elite athletes and. don't worry about any of that. Just.

worry about you. worry about. contributing to your boat crew and and. um and not falling behind. continue the sealed teams and and even.

as I went back to grad school even to be. like am I supposed to be doing this in. my 40s you know all the other students. are like 23 years old but they're really. smart what am I doing with my life but. it allowed me to like anything hard in. my life it allowed me to just kind of. stick to those basics. >> right on. how was hell week for you. >> hell week sucked um I remember the night. prior we had and maybe it was this way. for you guys I don't I don't know but we. had ordered a bunch of Domino's pizzas. cuz for some reason We always got.

Domino's pizza. I don't know why, but uh. and I remember it was stale. And we were. watching um some movies. Maybe it was. Braveheart or something like that. Just. some on VHS. And uh I remember not even. like knowing I had my own pizza, like a. medium pepperoni pizza and thinking like. I need the cal the calories of this. because hell week's about to kick off. tonight and I was so nervous I could. barely eat it. like I felt sick and then. just being struggling be like you need. the calories.

and so I didn't I only got maybe a few. pieces down and I couldn't hold it down. and then hell week started and it was it. was tough hypothermia like most guys. bunch of chafing um felt like it would. never end but I just kept using those. analogies of just make it to the next. meal make it to pick a palm tree on with. a boat on your head and you're running. around just make it to that and then. okay you got to that okay now make it to. you see a beach, a car in a parking lot. on the beach, like just make it to that. red car. And I think just really.

truncating it down got me through it. But it was definitely the cold water, which I believe uh is is unique. Not. that other selections don't have cold. water, of course they do, but. specifically buds. That's a big thing. And thinking that was the main mental. game, especially in surf tortures and. all of that where all you're doing is. sitting there. For the listeners that. don't know, you just interlock your arms. with your buddies and you lay in the. water until your body temperature just. goes down and then they'll at some point. bring you out, try to warm you up or.

check you to see if you have. hypothermia. But, uh, but there's a lot. of time in your own head just being. frozen. Um, and that's where a lot of. guys quit as you know. And I remember. that was the big mental game for me, especially as a teenager. That was. tough. Especially seeing the big. athletes, the guys, the Adonis type guys. I was talking about, like then they. start rolling off and quitting and then. it's like, man, that guy, if he quit, what am I doing? I was I was at prom. this time last year. You know what I mean? This guy was like, you know, division one champion and uh.

last year, you know, like what is going. on? And then just thinking like, well, dude, just keep going. Just make it to. the next meal. Just at some point this. evolution will end and you're doing And. I remember like looking to my like left. and right and seeing guys that were my. friends is thinking like, okay, like. Tom's doing it, I can do it. Like, okay, I know, you know, and if Robin can do. it, I can do it. And it just I know it. sounds so basic, but that's what got me. through. But it sucked. I'm definitely. one of those guys that isn't saying like.

it wasn't that bad. I'm one of the guys. that was like, yeah, it was horrible. >> It is. It is crazy, man. Like I don't. know. I don't like injecting my own. experiences into the episodes, but. like I was like a buck 45 maybe. >> totally. >> going in I wrestled 140 senior year in. high school and I remember like showing. up and I'm like holy like these are. men. >> Yeah, that's well put. >> I just got hair under my armpits like. two weeks ago. What the am I doing.

here? >> You nailed it. The men thing. I agree. It was like I remember thinking that. too. Like these are men. I'm a like a. boy. I'd like to think I'm a man, but. I'm Yeah. I'm just getting hair into my. armpits. >> Then you see him quit. You're like, >> how the am I still here? >> Yeah. >> And. it is it's like. this seems like a whole another life. ago, but it's it is it's just it's it's. uh it's really interesting, you know, to. see who who makes it after the after.

it's all over and who's gone. And it's. it's pretty wild. >> It really is, isn't it? And you know, I. don't know if you get it anymore, but. every now and then I'll get somebody. will ask me like, "You were a seal?". >> Oh, yeah. >> Even now, I'm like, "Yeah." They're. like, "For how long?" I'll be like, "20. years." And they're like, "Really?". Like, they imagine I'm supposed to look. like The Rock or something. You know. what I mean? I'm like, "I'm sorry to let. you down." You know what I mean? Like, I. guess I've been letting down everybody. this whole time. Just some average Joe.

You know, I'll get people being like, "Yeah, it's like I could just like be. next to you in the grocery store and and. have no idea." And I'm like, "Uh, thanks.". >> Yeah, I do go to the grocery store. >> Maybe we'll cross paths. Yeah. Well, you. don't look like the CPA I thought. either, you know. >> Oh, man. But uh. Oh. Any Did you have any hang-ups? >> I did. um when I I got rolled and I was.

rolled in second phase and for the. listeners it's like the dive phase and. it's um kind of one of the hell week and. first phase is the big crucible. obviously and second phase it's called. the pool week um essentially a lot of uh. drills and tests underwater with scuba. tanks and I um I remember I failed ditch. and dawn and so for the listeners all. that is is you jump in and you there's a. sequence you're in the pool and you take. your tanks off your weight vest uh. weight belt all these things in a. certain it has to be in the way they.

teach it and I was so intimidated and as. I reflect back on it probably because I. was a teenager and was so intimidated by. everything and it wasn't that hard when. I think back on it was just some basic. steps no reason I should have but I just. kept messing it up and and I failed it. and I was um did I remember thinking. like I might be booted out of here I've. already been through hell week and. everything but um I was rolled and I. just did a I just kept practicing that. that sequence. They had these um when I.

was rolled back these balsa wood tanks, scuba tanks and I remember after the day. I would just rep out I don't know like. 50 as as long until I got tired forever. Just repped out the sequences every. single day and then um when I went back. through I just passed everything first. time. Um so it there was a setback. though. I I was not sure if I was. Thankfully they rolled me and didn't. boot me out. But yeah, a lot of guys I mean I wish I. it's definitely more of a glorious thing.

in that world if you're getting booted. for pool comp, which is like the big. test, but I didn't even make it to that. I was so nervous I didn't even make it. to that. >> Oh man. What class were you? >> I started with 225 and finished with. 226. >> Right on. Right. >> What class were you? >> 240 and finished with 241. >> Nice. Cool. Pretty close. And so where. did you go? Where did you want to go? >> Yeah. So, I wanted to go to the to.

Little Creek uh because my cousin was. there and also well, he had just was in. I can't remember if he was still there. or was in the process of going to the. academy, but it was in that essentially. it was right around he was still there. and and at the time Kosovo, Bosnia, all. of that was like going on and that was. like where the action was. And so in the. SEAL teams, that was like that's where. you wanted to go. And I remember putting. in my dream sheet for the listeners, like they give you the opportunity to. list what SEAL teams you go to, whether. it's Little Creek or San Diego or.

perhaps Hawaii. And I picked all Little. Creek 824, I think, is what I put. And. then they gave me Seal Team 3, which is in San Diego, which I wasn't. mad about. I was just like, "Oh man, that means I can't um going to Bosnia is. out of the question." And you know, doing uh you know, being a teen with my. cousins out of the question. Um it. wasn't I was mad. I was just like, "Oh, bummer." But it was certainly needs of. the Navy where the Navyy's like, "Yeah, cool story. You want to go there? You're. young and single. We're going to throw. you wherever we need you." And I went to.

Seal Team 3, which was a blessing in. disguise um at the time. Um because when. I I checked into Seal Team 3, there was. a platoon Delta platoon that was looking. for new guys and the platoon chief would. end up being one of my biggest mentors u. a guy by the name of Todd Shbut. I don't. know if you've ever known Todd or not, but. >> he had been a dev group guy from Red. Squadron and had just left and was now a. platoon chief. And I remember uh they. were looking for new guys and myself and.

a close friend of mine Mark Carter uh. were asked like we were we were just. young guys. We're like we that's all we. need the young guys whatever just get a. fresh body in here and we screened not. screened we interviewed for this platoon. and I remember going interview for the. platoon. >> Yeah. Yeah. But this is before in those. days like. >> what do you mean they're looking for new. guys? >> Yeah. So a great question. So at the. time there SQT wasn't a thing. So, we. were waiting for STT, Sealed Tactical. Training. And so, we were just like in. this pool of guys and this platoon,

somebody had gotten in trouble, I think, and they were like, "We need a new body. to fill that spot." And so, they picked. Mark and I to interview us before STT. started. So, the only training we had. was Buds at the time, which was a very. unique kind of era in the SEAL team. It. doesn't happen as you know now, but for. the listeners, it doesn't happen like. that now. It's a lot more organized. Uh, but I remember going into the platoon. hut and they were just asking basic. questions just to get a feel for will. this guy be a good fit for the platoon? And I remember questions that they were. like, you know, like where are you from?

Um, you know, what interests you like. about the SEAL teams? What would you. like to do in the SEAL teams? This and. that. Very basic cuz we were just. there's not much to I remember them. saying like you're not bringing anything. to the platoon except your youth. I remember that specifically like, "So, you're going to be probably a 60 gunner. carrying heavy stuff and do you have a. problem with that?" I remember thinking. like, "No, I'll make sure I hit the. squat rack, you know? I'll Yeah. No, I. I'll do whatever." But what what how I. ended up getting picked up over Mark was.

uh they asked us what our hobbies were. And my hobby was I played guitar ever. since I was like 12, took lessons and. played in like garage bands, whatever. It wasn't that great. I was a hobbyist, though. And Todd, the platoon chief, was. like, "Ah, I just picked up guitar. I. could you give lessons and tune my. guitar? And I said, "Yeah, easy." And he. was like, "Okay." And then I guess when. Mark came in, they asked him like, "Hey, what is your. I'm not making this up. What is your. hobby?" And he said, "Oh, rollerblading.".

So, so I remember him telling me that. I'm like, "You rollerblade?" He's like, "I don't know." I kind of freaked out. I. just didn't know what to say. And so I. said rollerb blading. And so, so anyway, they were like, "Oh, cool. At least like. Alex can give the platoon chief a guitar. lesson and tune his guitar. So that's. how I got picked up in that. >> Holy. >> I know. Yeah. So So thankfully. >> Anybody got a roller ball? >> Yeah. Yeah. They're like, "Oh my god, you blade, bro. We're good." You know, and I don't remember him doing it. He. just kind of freaked out and said.

something and um so yeah, that's how I. got in to my first platoon. Yeah. Totally just like just starting at a. race just going and. dude totally just like neon you're out. >> totally like it was embarrassing. You. might need to go over like Seal Team 5. I don't know if we have room for you in. Seal Team 3. >> Totally. I remember just your ass down. the. >> Totally. Totally. I remember thinking like thank god he.

said that like I love you Mark. We were. roommates and close friends, but I was. like, "Thank God, dude." Like, he was a. sharp guy. I have no doubt he killed. that interview up until that part. Wow. >> Totally. Um, so yeah, I started in that platoon a. little bit and then went to STT, uh, which was the precursor SQT for the. listeners. And all that is just more. advanced training with land warfare, uh, CQB, um, diving, things like that. So. the platoon was starting the work up.

while I was still in ST and then rolled. back in with the platoon and we were an. ARG platoon. What that meant was we were. assigned to the the MW or the Marine. Corps on a ship that was going to have. this really cool pre 911 deployment. where we were going to like basically. join the Navy, see the world. So we were. going to Hawaii and then Guam and. Okinawa, um Thailand, Australia, all. these things. And and then the last. portion of it, we were going to Bahrain. for the last 3 months and doing uh VBSS.

or visit board search and seizure which. essentially for the listeners it's just. ship takedowns. Um, and what was going. on was there was an oil embargo on. Saddam Hussein in Iraq po the Gulf War. and they were smuggling oil and so all. those SEAL that SEAL team 3 was doing. Uh, I think some of the other maybe. eight and five did a little bit but. mostly it was the SEAL team 3 mission. cuz that was our area of operation. We. were taking down those ships. Um, none. of it was like some crazy gunfights but.

that was the thing at that time. Like my. buddies would be like, "Dude, you're at. Steel Team 3 going to Bahrain to do ship. takedowns." Like they were envious and I. was proud and stoked to actually do a. real world mission. That was I just. wanted to do one. And I equated to like. a if you're a professional baseball. player playing baseball your whole life. and never playing a game and just. wanting to prove yourself on one game, even if that mission as a SEAL was kind. of not that big of a deal, but I wanted. to at least do one mission. This is pre.

911. So that was like the the platoon um. before, you know, before we left. That. was like the adventure. That was that. was exactly what I signed up for. >> Um to be able to do that, you know, just. an adventure. >> Let's rewind real quick. >> Of course. >> Did your dad go to your bud's. graduation? >> He did. >> How was that? >> He was really proud. Um, I remember him. even being like in like uh almost like. tears, like holding back tears. And um.

and I remember him saying like over and. over again how proud he was of me. Almost to the point where it was on. repeat, like I get it, Dad. Like, thank. you. I get it. I get it. But now when I. think back on it, um I bet he he was. proud and he knew kind of what had. happened um in my upbringing, too. he. just didn't have the vocabulary or the. ability to be able to share that. Um, but I think it came out when I saw how. proud he was at at Bud's graduation. >> I bet that felt good, huh?

>> Yeah, it did. It did. And the whole It. was never like with my dad that I hated. him or anything like that. It was more. of like I knew he was struggling and um. and together we had been through a lot. together because of Vietnam. Man, that's cool to hear. >> Yeah. >> So, back to team three. >> Yeah. So, back to team three. So, uh, pre 911. So, we I remember, you know, we. left and we went to Hawaii, which was.

incredible. You know, we did that whole. thing and we found ourselves in Darwin, Australia, which is a northern town uh. of Australia. And we had done some. training up there. I think the Marines. had also broken off and done some. training. And our next thing was we were. going to go to East Teimour, which is an. island chain just north of Australia. And they had this big civil war that had. gone through. And we were going to go. through there with a humanitarian. mission of just dropping off medical. supplies and um food and I think some of.

the construction CD type guys might fix. up some buildings. Basically just do. something to help this country. That was. on the uh on the schedule. Um but then. we were out, we had just done training. We're not in Darwin and we were at this. I'll never forget at this restaurant bar. called Ror's Drift and as we're sitting. there we started getting words that we. needed to hurry up and get back to the. ship. Something had happened and you. know we were all mad. Here we were on. shore leave sailors on shore leave.

finally getting to like you know we'd. been training this whole time finally. getting to like let loose a little bit. and then even guys were like are you. sure? Do we need to send everybody? Just. send like Alex and the new guys back. there. He can figure it out. We'll tell. him where we're at. he can come back and. tell us if we need to go back and. certainly I'm like yeah sure I'll do. whatever you need me to do but um I. remember the word was coming out like no. everyone needs to go back like all the. Marines everybody so to get three ships. back filled with Marines and sailors I. have no idea and the thousands of people. who are just scattered across this town.

like we need to get you all back it's an. emergency and which uh I didn't the day. was September 11th and um but we had no. idea and I remember just thinking just. like wow we finally trained ained hard. I just want to like have a fun night in. Australia. And so we go back to the ship. and I remember walking into the galley. of um the ship I was assigned to, the. LPD8, the USS Debuke. At the time, it. was one of the oldest ships in the Navy, and it's since been decommissioned. But. I remember walking into the galley,

which is the cafeteria for the. listeners, and seeing on these TVs um. the Twin Towers uh and um we're on fire. and um watching another plane hit and. then just thinking like just so. dumbfounded like what is like most. people like what is h that must be an. accident like air traffic control, who. knows? Or maybe a pilot was dying by. suicide. I don't know. And then sure. enough, more and more Marines were. coming in. The towers start falling. I. remember even watching a guy punch the. wall with in the on ships or metal, you.

know, likely breaking his hand. I have. no idea. But, you know, and just seeing. all of this emotion, especially from all. these Marines and sailors, a lot of them. coming in from parting. So, they were. half in the bag and then just like. watching it and just all of us just. crowded in this galley on this ship. watching this almost like what is. happening? And then the next day we got. word, hey, you're not allowed to get off. the ship. Like we're something's this. has been an attack, especially with the. Pentagon and and all of that. And so we. uh they kept the East Tour mission going.

u because we were still kind of in the. what are we going to do as a country? What's happening? And so we did end up. going to East Tour did that humanitarian. thing which was interesting. Nothing to. like move the needle. We just helped. people. That was only a couple days. And. then we were steaming for the Pakistan. um out the coast of Pakistan to support. the invasion of Afghanistan. >> Yeah. And I remember calling right. before my platoon. um right before we went into Pakistan.

actually we my platoon was part of a. small base at Jacob Jakokabad Pakistan. and we had the ASOC 53s which were a. CESAR mission. uh they were stationed. there and sometimes there was a ASOC 130. and we were security for these birds. that were flying around dropping off. medevacing or dropping off um supplies. to the ODAs that were doing the invasion. with the Northern Alliance. But I. remember before we went in I was I. finally they turned off I forgot what.

the term was on a ship where you don't. have any communication but uh we weren't. allowed to have any communication with. anybody at that point. Um, and so. finally they're like, "Okay, for all the. guys getting ready, the SEAL platoon. that's getting ready to go in, we'll. allow you a phone call or a couple phone. calls." And I remember uh calling my mom. and I didn't I wasn't able to say. anything other than, you know, I love. you and and all of that. And then. calling my dad and and trying to play it. cool like I just can't talk to. He's. like, I know where you're going. And I. was like, yeah. And he's like and he. kept saying, I wish I was with you and.

your team so I could help you call in. air strikes. Like this old man like and. he meant it. Like I have no doubt in my. mind if he was able to get teleported. there, he would have thrown on kid and. gone in and um and helped us. But I I. always remember that there was like this. warrior spirit was still alive in him. and um but telling him, you know, I love. you and um and I'll I don't know when. I'll be able to contact you. And but we. we flew into Jakokabad and then we were. doing some of that seesar type stuff.

Nothing crazy. The war was with the ODAs. um pushing the northern alliance, you. know, the Taliban out. And then we went. with the Marines into an area called. Camp Rhino, which was an old hunting. camp outside of Kandahar. And we staged. out of that and started doing mechanized. reconnaissance with Humvees below the. city of Kandahar as it was falling. I. would love to say that we got into some. like really cool missions and air. strikes and this and that, but the. reality was that didn't happen. But I. was so proud to be a part of, you know,

a small spoke of the wheel of progress. of that invasion. I was somewhat part of. it. And I just, especially as a a young. guy, I was 21, first deployment. >> You're only 21. >> I was only 21 on the Afghan invasion. And and and there wasn't many guys who. or partake were uh were part of the. Afghan invasion. you know, it was mo, like I said, mostly ODAs, um, special. operations, uh, paramilitary guys and, um, and the Marines, a little bit of the. Marines, uh, from the MW that I was on,

but that was very limited. And so, I. felt honored to to be on that. And at. that time, we had we thought maybe the. war would be over and that's it. >> Like, you know, that was 2002, maybe it. would be over. We had no idea that it. would draw out to what it was, >> man. An old hunting camp. Yeah, I I. guess some old hunting camp. >> How were they hunting? >> I don't know. Something falcons. I don't. know. I remember. A lot of them might. have been rumors. So, I don't know. But. it was this old camp from Amula Omar. Um. the leader of the Taliban actually.

>> Is this Gecko? >> This is outside of Gecko. It was not. Gecko. Um I know exactly what you're. talking about. It was another one. It's. the camp of Ryan. It was further out. And um it was just this camp in the. middle of nowhere. And what was. interesting even with the mechanized. reconnaissance and the SEAL teams at the. time we didn't have any ground mobility. training at all. There was like no. Humvees or there's nothing. And I. remember we had these Humvees that were. turned over by Seal Team 8 actually. Uh. they had done a couple small things and.

that they had somehow acquired them from. some CBS or what somehow. And so I. remember not even my platoon chief. asking me like, "Hey, you're going to be. one of the drivers. Um have you ever. driven on NODS?" And I was like, "No, I've never driven a knot." I'm like, "You can do that? People do that?" And. he was like, "Oh my gosh, yes." So he. made myself and all the other drivers, because we didn't have a workup on it, just do laps around the airfields at. night, just laps and laps, changing. tires on night vision. Um, and we had. done a lot of like foot patrolling and.

stuff like that prior on night vision, but it was not the modern units that we. would that would happen, you know, with. technology. This was pre 911, you know, this is just at 911. So, you know, things like lasers and all that were. still kind of starting out. Suppressors, all of the things, right? This we were. some of the tactics were, you know, from. Vietnam even. Uh, which is kind of crazy. to think about. The only real action in. the SEAL teams, I'm sure you know this, but you know, it was like Grenada, Panama. Um, and those were very.

short-lived, um, you know, experiences. And I don't mean to minimize the guys. that were in those, but it wasn't like a. prolonged campaigns where t tactics and. um and technologies could evolve with. input from the operator. It was just. boom, short and quick. So yeah, the the. guys who invaded in ' 01, their gear, their depth of knowledge was way. different than 10 years later by far. Like light years. >> Yeah. >> It was a whole different military. >> Yeah. Wow. Interesting.

>> Yeah. Where do we go from here? So that ended I remember uh and then at. the time the SEAL teams were doing this. like force 21 where they were creating a. new SEAL team on each coast. So on the. west coast it was Seal Team 7 and on the. east coast Seal Team 10. And because of. that restructuring, Seal Team 3 uh had a. short workup. So I came back to just a. six-month workup before I deployed. again. Um, but my platoon chief, Todd, I. remember him telling me like, "Hey,

man." Um, and him coming from dev group, there's something interesting about him. where he was just a better shot than. everybody, better tactically than. everybody. He was fit. He just he had. confidence. Not that other guys in the. SEAL teams didn't have all those. attributes, but he was my mentor. So, I. I saw that and was like, I want to be. like that. I didn't know much about the. development group other than the rogue. warrior and especially being on the west. coast teams there wasn't that many you. know guys coming from dev group out. there you know so it was most of those. guys stayed on the east coast and.

>> so I didn't know much about the. development group but he was telling me. he's like I think you should screen. and and I thought like oh okay yeah. maybe in like five more years or I'll do. a couple more platoon and uh yeah sure. he's like no I think you should screen. now and uh I was young and uh I was like. okay and then you know we get back from. that deployment and then he tells me hey. I talked to the training um chief from. green team or from selection and they're. actually looking to try something new. where in the past to go to dev group.

historically you know you were maybe mid. to late 20s you had done at least 5. years in the seal teams and um and then. that way that was like you older guys. older quote unquote you know um and. that's what I thought so I was like oh. Todd I'm not like that yet I'd like to. be he's like well trying to get it to. where they are getting a young guy in. there. They want to try it a test where. there's a younger guy that comes in. So. then that way when he makes it through. selection at, let's say, 23, um those. extra years are spent learning their.

tactics and their techniques and you're. getting mentored by them and not um and. not the SEAL teams and that. So they're. kind of after it. And one of them asked. me any potential guys that might be good. for that and I mentioned your name. Would you be into it? And then I had this imposter syndrome. kind of come up and just thought, well, I can't say no to my mentor and if he. sees something in me that I don't I'm. trust him. So I just thought, okay, yeah, I'll I'll give it a shot. And then. I um so I screened at 22 and I remember.

the the cadre saying that like, hey, we're trying this out on you. it's. probably not going to work, you know, but we want to just see what happens. because it might change the way that we. do selection where um if you come in, you'll be the youngest guy we've we've. ever put through selection, but if you. do make it, that might open the door for. more younger guys so that they can. spend, you know, do limited time on the. SEAL teams and then if they're younger. and then come over so that they can just. kind of hang out being a a newer guy for. a long time so that then one day they.

become an assault team leader, they've. maximized their potential. they've got a. bunch of reps in. And I remember just. thinking like that was way above my head. at the time. I was like, "Okay, I'll. give it my best shot." And thankfully I. got picked up. Um I finished my work up. on my second platoon at Seal Team 3. We. were a jungle platoon, so we went to. Guam and uh we were training there and. everything was going great. But we also. had a bunch of other cool trips lined up. like Thailand, Australia again, all of. these like cool places to go just if we.

weren't going to be in Afghanistan, at. least there's these cool exercises. And. um but then at the time the Iraq war was. starting to gain a little bit of. traction and we got reconsolidated in. Kuwait um with Seal Team 3. So the all. Seal Team 3 minus one platoon all. reconsolidated for the invasion. Um so. we left Guam uh to get ready for that. Um it was our first mission was to take.

down the oil fields uh in the southern. peninsula of Bazera, which is the. southern part of Iraq on something. called the Alfa Peninsula. And what it. was was these big oil fields and then. also these oil um rigs that were off the. coast, pumping stations essentially. where ships could come up and get dump a. bunch of oil and move on. And so it took. all of Seal Team 3 was going to take. this down with the British 40th. commando. And um so we were doing these. big workups and as far as I know it was. the first time a SEAL team had together.

had done a mission. Um since then. perhaps it's happened but I know at. least in 2003 that was the first time. that like the full SEAL team had done. something together. and my platoon, we. were on the oil field and we were. essentially um going to land on a Air. Force 53. We had a DPV or desert patrol. vehicle which was essentially a dune. buggy that had a bunch of machine guns. on it that was very the engine was very. underpowered kind of a legacy type thing. but it fit really well into a helicopter.

and um so that was going to be that a. blocking the vehicle was going to be a. blocking position. my team was going to. be a blocking position as the 40th. commando uh took down the oil fields on. the workup though in the Kuwaiti desert. Um, I remember part of my job was the. pointman of the platoon. Uh, as soon as. the helicopter landed, I was going to. release a cargo strap for the the DPV to. roll off and I I have my hand on the. cargo strap and then as this is just. training. Um, as the helicopter's there,

it starts to brown out and then it. starts to like kind of tilt and then the. rotors start hitting the ground and we. just crash and the tail snaps off. And I. remember I had the the my hand on the. cargo strap and as I got flung back to. the guy behind me, I released the cargo. strap and then I had my feet on the. frame of the DPV as it's almost like. launching at me like a dog on a taunt. leash just like wanting to kill me. That's what it felt like. And my feet. were on the frame and then it finally.

just settled and you could smell all. this fuel and everything in the air and. the dust was settling and then we. thankfully got out of the helicopter. Nobody was killed. guys were banged up a. little bit, but that was um before the. war that war started. And then um you know during that time. we're living in the desert quitting uh. Ali Oasel air base and then finally the. the zero hour zero hour or the moment of. an invasion approached and I remember we. were flying in on the 53s and then just.

feeling the um almost like excitement. like another invasion, right? like, "Wow, we are invading. This is crazy." I. never thought we I didn't think we would. actually do it. I thought it was going. to be a standard military hurry up and. wait, train, train, train, and then all. of the sudden like, "Okay, calm it down. Politically, we've we've figured this. thing out." Um, but there we were, and. they were pre-assault fires were going. on in this oil fields from um Tomahawk. cruise missiles to AC130s.

And I remember when we finally landed. and being the point man, I was, you. know, I released that cargo strap, the. DPV rolled off and I took my first step. on Iraqi soil and right as I took my. step, I saw a vehicle, a technical, an. Iraqi technical and an A-10 shoot a. Maverick right into it. So like first. step, boom, that was like welcome to. Iraq. >> Holy. >> Yeah. Uh that night we went Winchester. on AC130. Um just what's all that means. for the listeners is um A13 is a big.

cargo plane with a bunch of like a. cannon and all sorts of munitions on it. and very good for uh close air support. and it shot all of its ammunition and um. just at different Iraqi targets. But we. flew back from that mission. Let me back. up. As that was going on, SE Seal Team 3. was also taking down these oil. platforms, these oil uh out in the ocean. and this pump station also that was. right on the beach. So there was a lot. of coordination that was going on. Uh. but all of it was successful. I remember.

we had gotten back and my master chief. of SEAL team 3 brought in all the guys. that had screened for dev group who had. orders because I had this was in March. and green team was starting I believe in. April of like so it's really close like. just a few weeks out and he pulled this. all in and I appreciated him doing this. He said all right he was from dev. groupoup so I think that's why he wanted. he put a little extra effort in this. And he said, "All right, guys. Here's. the thing. You have a choice. You can. fly back now because you have orders. back to the States and you can start.

green team. I already talked to the. green team cadre. They understand if you. want to go with SEAL team 3 with us as. we drive with the Marines to Baghdad. Um, you'll orders can be postponed a. year. Like they get it. Like they. understand that of course you'd want to. be on the invasion. Like like they. they'll hold the spot for you. But it's. going to be up to you guys. and I just. need to know an answer right now because. if we start driving to Baghdad and you. change your mind, good luck. Like, I'm not pulling any strings to get. you out of there. I need you." And I.

remember him asking the four of us and I. was the only guy that was single. And I. was like, "Let's go to Baghdad. That's where I was at." But the the. other guys were married and all that and. and I remember them being like, "Well, I. don't know." And then I remember that. Master Chief saying, "Also, here's the thing. I don't believe. these wars Iraq and Afghanistan are. going anywhere." which was different. than what most guys were thinking at the. time. And he said, "If if you want to. hang around and keep fighting in these. wars, you're going to want to be at a JC. squadron." And so my recommendation is. that even though I need all of you guys.

to be with us on the drive to Baghdad, um, professionally, I would recommend. that you just go to the command. Um, but. do whatever you want and let me know by. the end of the day. And then at that. point, all the other guys were like they. wanted to go back and I was like, "Okay, I'm going to take his advice. I'm gonna. just roll the dice and hopefully I make. it. >> It's a tough decision. >> Yeah, it was. It was. And um so we. boarded on I remember a they were. calling them like freedom flights where. you just basically a chartered um. civilian plane flying back to the states.

and I flew back. I didn't have own much. I had a small storage unit with a little. U-Haul trailer. I loaded up my truck and. drove across country and started green. team within I don't know a couple weeks, a week maybe. Um, and that's when that. chapter ended and the dev group chapter. started. Right on. Let's take a break. In case you haven't noticed, I take. preparedness seriously, and water is one. of the first things I look at. Not just.

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All right, Alex, we're back from the. break getting ready to get into green. team. Mhm. >> Yeah. I, you know, it's interesting. going from the west coast to the east. coast and I didn't really know anyone. out there. Uh, but I moved in with an. old friend of mine in his house while I. went through green team or selection for. the development group. And um and being.

the at the time at least the the. youngest guy to at least attempt it. Um. I also found myself just like I was in. Buds feeling almost intimidated. imposttor syndrome around you know these. instructors. A lot of the instructors. were you know guys that were at the top. of their game super talented and even. thinking to myself like wow I don't know. if I belong here. looking at some of the. other guys that were students who were. had more time in the SEAL teams, had. these big reputations, and just thinking. like, how did I end up here? But then.

just going back to that same mentality. of just just make it to the next meal or. make it to the next evolution or the. next house run. And um when I went. through, I would say I was maybe an. average at best student. Um but but I. just kind of kept kicking the can down. the road and passing different. evolutions and uh it was about the one I. went through was in those days it was. about 7 months but I was also there's a. couple years where they had seals where.

part of the mobility also. So you went. through all the assault section part of. it and then you went through mobility. meaning uh you would learn more ground. mobility stuff and then also the boats. and drive the boats but it was only for. like two years where guys had both. It. was in 2002 and 2003 when I went through. in 2003. >> so the green team was about 10 months. long because of that cuz I almost had. both green teams. It was brutal. >> And um yeah, however I'm so glad I had.

that foundation of mobility. um whether. it was like waterborne or ground. mobility because that was needed in when. I be would become an assault team leader. I had a better understanding of all of. mobility assets but also ground mobility. in specifically Afghanistan up in the. mountain just getting more more. knowledge in that realm um really gave. me a real depth of knowledge as an. operator but so we went through 10. months of that and then. >> you were you were 23 when you went to.

green team. Yeah. >> Were you the And you were basically a. case study. >> I was a case study. Yes. At the time. Um. >> So were you the only. like how much younger were you than the. other? >> I would say the next youngest guy was. probably 26 or seven. Um and yeah, and I. was 23 and I had just turned 23 also. And. >> what's one deployment? >> Oh yeah, technically two. Uh because I. had that that second deployment was. shortened. It was just 6 months. So.

yeah, basically one and a half is what I. would say, but um yeah, not much. So I. had limited experience and was young and. um and struggled with imposter syndrome. I had all those things kind of like. buzzing around where I was like, "Oh. man." Um, and then thinking, you know, you go to a selection like that and it's. like, okay, if you don't make it, where. a lot of guys don't, but then I would, you know, in those days I would go to. Little Creek, which was fine with me, but I that wasn't I didn't move from San. Diego to to go to Little Creek. Um, but.

I would have just I knew I'm like, okay, if I don't make it, I'm just going to go. to a SEAL team, whatever 824, whatever. it was, and just do some more time there. and enough time to hopefully get a. chance to come back. That was my my. backup plan. Not that I was relying on a. backup plan, but I I was just committed. I was like, "This is what I want to do. I want to be the best assaulter um that. I can possibly be, and that's the place. I want to go.". >> So, what what is what is day one of. training like? I mean, what. >> it was um definitely going back in the.

way back machine a while back, but I. recall it as a PT. It was um you know. push-up, sit-ups, pull-ups, swim, run, and and those the only they will say. those are they're giving you the answers. to the test. That's the only time you'll. get it in green team of this is what. you're going to need. These are you need. to do x amount of pull-ups like perfect. like those are the answers to the test. And so and for me, you know, I was in in. Iraq or Kuwait trying my best to stay in. shape, but there wasn't a pool there.

There wasn't um you couldn't really run. A lot of the running was on a treadmill. and um and then I had to move so it. wasn't it was hard to stay in like peak. shape but I was young so I did have. youth on my side and was able to to pass. all that. So the first day was more of. like that PRT or that that workout that. test and then it was if I recall just. more administrative type stuff. So like. day one was um kind of the workout or. the PT test and then the in some.

administrative stuff, but then you where. the real crux or crucible of that. selection was in CQB or close quarters. battle or for the listeners shooting. inside of live fire inside of rooms like. you might see like a SWAT team do on TV. or something like but that's what we. were doing because it was a national. mission hostage rescue unit between a. development group and KAG or the Army's. ver tier one unit, Delta Force. Those. are the two national mission hostage. rescue units. So, you have to be a true.

subject matter expert or perform at the. level of that within the rooms of. shooting close to each other live fire. And so, essentially, you would really. need to be given a technique that you. had to do perfectly, the way they want. it done, not the way they did it at Seal. Team 3 or Seal Team 2 or whatever team. you came from. You had to do it the way. they wanted it. And if you didn't then. um likely you would get rolled out or. dismissed from the course and shooting. So it's very CQB shooting. It was very.

hard where BUDS was, you know, try not. to get hypothermic. It's horrible. physically and mentally, but this was. more of a performance like, hey, we get. it. You're not going to quit because. you've made it through buds, but we're. going to make it hard. But you have to. be have the aptitude to be able to meet. these standards within the kill house. and on the range. I mean, was that uh how apparent was. that right off the bat? right off the. bat is that we went to um a rain a. training facility out in Mississippi and.

we went out there and that was like the. big you're out there for over a month. and it was just right off the bat and it. was so precise like if you're your. barrel as you're moving your barrel and. you you come close within like 12 in or. below like 10 inches you get a safety. violation. and and all these instructors. were so keen and and zeroed in on every. little movement that if you didn't do. every little technique perfectly, you. would get a safety violation or or some. sort of infraction. And if you compiled.

this this this um training record of all. of these, they would likely let you go. Um and it wasn't that you weren't a good. guy, it was that you just didn't meet. the performance. >> What if you're not pushing the limits? >> If you're not p and if you're trying to. play it too safe, I mean, >> oh yeah, they would get you too. and. they they would call you out on it. They. would notice it and then they would. force you to the front. And then you. would get a lot of the attention of the. instructors. So they actually preferred. a guy that was just whatever. I'm going. to go for it every time. I'm just going.

to be aggressive and if I mess up, I. mess up. They preferred that over a guy. trying to play it really safe and kind. of hide in the back because they just. saw that as kind of, for lack of a. better term, of avoidance. I don't want. to say use the word cowardice, but like. like, hey, you're we want you up there. If you're going to fail, fail big is. kind of what what it was. And so I just. did what they told me. You know, I was. just like, "Okay, I'll just do what you. tell me." Just like I did what that Buds. instructor was saying, just make it to. the next meal. I was just like, "Okay, I'll just do what you tell me." And so I.

just would always try to be the number. one man. Um, so for the listeners, that's like the first guy that goes into. a room. I was always trying to just do. what they told me to do, just be. aggressive and and leave it all out on. the field. And thankfully, I mean, sure, I made mistakes. Um, and there was times. I didn't think I think everybody who's. gone through the selection is like, I'm. not sure if I'm going to make it today. Uh, I know at least for me, there was. days I did not know if I was going to. make it. I even had an in one of the. instructors tell me that once like like, bro, you're right on the edge. And just. thinking like, I know, I know, I know.

And uh, but, you know, it's just I. equated to a quarterback at a big game. who throws an interception where it's. like you throw the interception, you. have two choices. You can either get all. in your head and be like, I can't. believe I did that. I made that mistake. Or you can just say, "Well, it. I'm. going to learn from that and I'm just I. got to get back in there. I'm still the. quarterback of my own life. This game is. still ongoing." And so, um, I just kind. of applied that kind of mentality to it. where if I did mess up, it's like, "All.

right, I threw an interception. Um, they'll let me know if I'm dismissed and. if not, I'm just going to keep going and. and you know, using the analogy, keep. throwing footballs." And uh, and I. that's what I did. And thankfully I. didn't make enough mistakes to get. dismissed. >> Did you get to the point where you just. I don't want to say didn't give a. but I mean. I don't know how it was. Are they. yelling at you, you know? >> Yeah, there's a lot of yelling. >> You have to get to a point where I would.

think you would have to get to a point. where that you're just not even. listening anymore. >> That's true. Yes. And it was it's almost. like you have to in my opinion kind of. like quiet the noise a little bit. Um. don't get me wrong like I'm listening to. instruction and all of that, but there. was a lot of yelling because they would. try to create a lot of chaos to really. make you stressed out. And the why is, you know, it's not just the the. movements, but the shots have to be. perfectly placed. There's no like if you. run in and you're really fast at.

shooting, they don't give a if how. fast you shoot as long as the rounds are. perfect. They'd rather it be like boom. boom and like keyhold between the eyes. than just some guy coming in just. blasting a bunch of rounds. And so um. there was so much chaos that they would. try to create because it's a national. mission hostage rescue unit. So it's. it's mimicking maybe the chaos of combat. or the stress of like a highlevel. mission where maybe it's just not. hostage rescue. Maybe it's you know like. JC going after army going after Saddam.

Hussein or um Osama bin Laden. whatever. it is, it's like the big missions. Like. they need guys that can handle that and. they're testing you for it there. And um. and it was very hard. Like that's. another one where some guys might say it. wasn't that bad to me. I was like that. was really hard. Like I I did not know. if I was going to make it. Um but I was. young too and I did get uh a little. extra attention because I was young and. most of it was I really wish I wouldn't. have gotten but I couldn't avoid it. But.

I do think and I don't know this for. sure but at the same time for the from. the cadre because I would one day become. an instructor that as long as he's. making the standard yeah we're giving. him a lot of and just like really. ratcheting it up but he is young and he. is like showing up and meeting the. standard. So I think it got to a certain. point where they're like all right we. can back off him a little bit like he's. he might he might be here for like make. it. So they they backed off a little. bit. Do you think that the I mean, did. you get the impression that a lot of.

people didn't want you there because you. were so young? Do you think maybe they. thought you didn't deserve to be there. because Yeah. you were so young? >> There was I got the vibe from a couple. instructors um where they didn't think. that, you know, I was going against. tradition. Um you know, you needed to. hack, you know, your time in the SEAL. teams. You needed to do at least five. years um and then, you know, you tack on. buds and all that. you likely have been. in the Navy 7 8 n years to be like the. most junior guy in the class. And here I. was with a lot less than that. Um maybe. 5 years, four years, four and a half.

years. And so there was some old guard. that didn't like it. Um like that's not. how it was for me and my friends. Um. that's what makes the best assaulters. So why are we messing with this guy over. here? Why are we even entertaining this? Yeah, sure he's not a bad guy. That's. what I'm imagining. you know, like make. him go back to SEAL team, whatever for a. few more years and come back and then. we'll pay attention. But there was a. couple instructors that I could tell. they did care. They were like whatever. like if he's showing up and and like. he's here right now, we see the vision. of what we're at least attempting to do.

here because if he graduates or makes it. through selection at 23, then he has, you know, so many more years like as I. was mentioning before where he can get. mentored uh by the guys and more reps. and all of that and just hang out so. that one day, you know, he can really. maximize his true potential. So there. was some more forward thinking guys, but. just like in any organization, there. were some old school guys that uh made. sure that um I knew that um in some ways. it wasn't that welcomed that I was. there. >> But they they did treat me like a man.

It was just like they were more thinking. like just not yet, Alex. Like it's not. that we don't want you here, it's just. that you're here a little too early. But. then I just kept going and just passing. stuff. And I wouldn't say with flying. colors at all, but meeting the standard. And then uh before I knew it, slowly the. end was getting closer. How many guys. did you start with? That's a great. question. Um those classes were smaller. in those days. I would say we started. with maybe like 35 and probably or 30.

and finished with like I don't know 22. or something like that. The tuition. rates would get worse the years after me. when the classes got bigger. But um and. to be honest like I I don't know because. I got split and they took half of the. enlisted SEALs and put them in the. mobility um pipeline. So you were in. assault mobility. So out of I think we. had 21 enlisted SEALs and 10 of us were. in like a lottery. Basically they're. like all right here's the class like. okay this guy's going just assault this.

guy's going ground mobility and then. back and forth. So I happened to be in. that ground mobility group. Um, and so. there was 10 of us if I recall. So maybe. I don't know. We the classes after would. be like 50% attrition. I don't think. ours was as high, but we also didn't. have as large of a of a class where I. think some of the other classes were 60. something guys. >> So you you went I'm going to bounce. around here a little bit. So did you go. straight to to red? I went to gray red,

but but because I had been through the. assault selection, I was also considered. an assaulter. So, I had like a red. squadron patch. Um I was cons you were. you were you weren't support you were. >> No, no, no. I was considered, you know, I yarded in which basically for the. listeners when you get there in those. days, you drink a yard of beer to in. front of everybody to basically say like. welcome, you know, you get almost like. hazed in. If I wouldn't say hazed, initiated in maybe is a better way. Um. and yeah, so I but I was I would do a.

lot of the house runs with Red Squadron, but then sometimes I would break away to. do training of driving boats or ground. mobility and um but I was still doing. all the deployments as either an. assaulter um as an assaulter for the. next. >> because the other path is a little bit. different, right? >> Yeah. >> The gr most gray. >> Yes. >> what gray red gray whatever. >> it's different. It's different green. team. >> It is. Yeah. Before those two years of. 2002 and 2003, um before that it was uh SEALs would.

drive boats at Dev Group and do the the. mobility, but they wouldn't go through. the assault version. They would just do. the mobility version. So then they. wouldn't be considered an assaulter. Uh. but those those two years that I was in. qualified me to do both. Uh but then. they stopped doing that after my class. and then the swick uh took over driving. boats at Dev Group. >> Gotcha. I know it's like a little like. nuanced, but um yeah, that's just kind. of how it went in those days. >> What about your classmates? I mean, what.

do they think about you be being five, six years younger? >> They they loved it. I remember a lot of. those guys cuz I was just, you know, I. fit in really well with the guys. Still. have really close friends with a lot of. them. And um I think that they were. supportive of it. It's just but they. were also worried about their own self. of passing. So, I never got any. negativity from any of the classmates. It was more of I mean, I certainly was. the young guy and I'm sure, you know, my. prefrontal cortex wasn't even developed.

of my brain when I think back on it. So, um I. >> I I think that I was accepted and I I. just felt like one of the guy like the. class made me just feel like I could. have been instead of 233. Uh, but it was. I think the old guard of the instructors. that kind of had an extra eye out like. let's keep an eye on this guy because it. was a test. But, um, even them, the most. hardcore guys were fair to me. It wasn't. like they made up a safety violation to. get me out or anything. It was just. maybe a little extra attention like an.

extra tire drag or or maybe um, you. know, I don't know, just a little extra. yelled getting yelled at or something, a. little extra love. I mean, so. so you were the you were basically the. guy that opened the gates for everybody. cuz in my generation and I didn't. screen, I didn't go over there. >> But in my generation. is when I think they started running two.

green teams a year. >> And. everybody with two platoon was like, "Yep, it. I'm going over there. I'm. going to try to I'm going to scream. I'm. going to go over there. >> Yeah. >> So, you were the one that. >> Yes. Yeah. Because of that, that allowed. just to what you were saying, that. allowed for younger guys. Other guys. after me were 23. Um other guys after. me, they tried like one platoon or or. two, you know, where it's like uh. shorter time at the SEAL as long as. their masteries of their SEAL teams were.

okay with it. But yeah, that was the be. when that that showed, okay, that can. happen, then that opened up the door for. for more guys to come more junior. >> Yeah. >> What do you think looking back? >> Do you think if you were if you were in. a leadership position, I mean, would you. >> What do you think? Was that. >> I think it was the right call. Yeah, I. think it was the right call. I'm glad. they did it. Um for the right guy, I. think um and I wouldn't say I was like. super mature. I wasn't immature. I was. just like right where I needed to be.

Um, I think for the right guy, it is. worth a gamble because of what I was. mentioning before where instead of doing. another, let's say, four years at a SEAL. team, I had four years of just being a. junior guy as an assaulter and getting. qualifications and just getting more. house runs, more time on the range of. the way they wanted it done. So, and. missions most importantly, especially in. that era. So I was able So when I got. into a leadership position later on, I. had a lot more tours than at the command. at least than a lot of previous assault. team leaders. So I was truly peing at my.

uh my potential. Um so I would say with. the right guy that is that was the right. call. I would say if I was um the guy. that was picking these guys that were 23. or or young um that it it's okay to say. no to some guys even though they could. be the right fit and let them grow up a. little bit more in the SEAL teams. It. just depends. It's it's almost like you. have to just pick the right guy. But I. do believe that that is a good thing and. some people might disagree with me on. that. Um which is fine. But it's coming.

from my experience, I I felt like it set. me up professionally um to contribute to. the squadrons better by getting there. earlier. >> What did you notice different about the. culture. >> at Red Squadron? >> Yeah, >> I they were hardcore. I remember it was. everything was about the h house runs. Um everything was about shooting. Um we. were just training our asses off all the. time. Everything ended in the kill. house. Whether we were doing a jump, you.

do a jump into something patrolling kill. house o swimming over the beach, you. know, kill house, um, ground mobility, kill, everything was just ended in just. CQB. So, and that was something that I. personally like loved. I loved. assaulting. I loved shooting inside of. buildings. I loved the hostage rescue. It just spoke my language and I was. mentored by so many incredible operators. that like it truly allowed me to come. into my own. But the mentality at Red. Squadron was very intense. Um, and they. kind of had that at least in those days.

of to the other squadrons had their own. little personalities. But Reds was. always like intense. Like it's just we. are proud to be the most extreme. Whether that is true or not is, you. know, to be determined, but at least. that was the mentality. So Seal Team 3. is great, great place to kind of grow up. in. great people, great mentality, but. Red Squadron was just like this whole. the energy of it was just like train. hard, you know, get there early, leave. late, train, train, train. Like we're.

going to train harder than everybody. And uh at least in those days, that's I. believe we did. I wouldn't say we were. better. I just say that was the. mentality. It's just hardcore. Do. >> you notice an immediate difference. though from team three to. >> Yes, absolutely. And what I noticed too. was now you have an assault team leader. who's perhaps a subject matter expert. and has been there for a while and then. the second guy in charge in that team. and then on it goes down the line and. you're getting mentored by these guys. that that are that. And so now I have a.

ton of mentors that are telling me what. to do and different ways to do it. And. then now you're at a JC unit. So there's. a ton of funding to get the top gear in. the world. you can bring in worldclass. like let's say shooting instructors or. skydive instructors. So the the budget. was great for that and then also because. it's the machine of JOCK we were getting. a lot more missions. So you were. actually able to employ those skills. overseas and um so that um and then that. built a confidence like a true.

confidence I I believe like gun like a. gunfighter confidence to where it wasn't. just like I think I can do that. It's. like no I'm I'm I'm ready like. let's go. Um, but yeah, so that. mentality, not that Steel Team 3 wasn't. a bunch of warriors and great guys they. are, but it was just it really was. almost like a step up, at least in my. experience, to where it's like, what? Like taking down a stadium, right? Like. taking down a football stadium. It's. like, who does that? But those units, it's like, yeah, no problem. You know, and then I remember being a junior guy. and being like, what do you mean no. problem? And then but then seeing these.

guys being able to do it and then just. be like, I want to be like that one day. I might not be there right now, but I've. at least seen it done well. And then. yeah and so I felt like it was where I. wanted to be ex and the timing for me. however you might look one look looks at. it I believe I was very fortunate. because I got there after the both. invasions in ' 03 and then was in red. squadron from 03 until 2014 and I so I. deployed every year to Iraq Afghanistan.

or some other locations to combat every. year at least once from 01 to to 13. So. it was just this grind and learning on. the go and the evolution of tactics and. techniques and also technologies. You. were like right at the forefront of it. of those wars. So the a long answer to. your simple question was it was just the. to me it was the place to be for. tactics, for mentorship and for. missions. >> Were you treated like just like.

everybody else when you got in? >> Well, no. So the first year I got there. Yeah. No, definitely not. First year I. got there, I remember I had this um this. mentor Lou Langless uh who was killed in. extortion unfortunately, but he was a. big mentor of mine and uh I remember him. saying, he was my first team leader. like, "Hey, you're not allowed to talk. uh in a debrief." So basically at the. end of a house run, like if you even if. you have something good to say, tell it. to me because you're so junior and.

young, you probably know what the. you're talking about. So tell me I'll be. the filter and then I'll bring it up. So. don't say anything. I was like yeah. roger that Lou. And then he's like and. know by the way take the trash out and. don't say anything for the first year. And I was like no problem. And so it was. like but I appreciated that humility of. it because it wasn't like wow I made it. through the selection. It was like cool. story so is everyone else. Um just shut. up and listen and and absorb stuff. And. so um yeah and also I was a junior too. I was probably the young guy at Red. Squadron that, you know, for probably.

four years. Um, right. So, I was always. like a new batch of new guys would come. in and I was still the youngest and then. another batch the next year still the. youngest. And so, um, but as that was. going on, my confidence and was going up. and my reps and experience was going up. So, I could see what their vision was to. give it a shot on young guy like myself. because now I'm like let's say 26 and uh. and 27 and finally somebody's more.

junior than me gets to red squadron and. I've already have a lot of experience. and I'm like now I'm kind of the guy. that's mentoring that guy in a way or. I'm mentoring guys that are older than. me only because I'd been there longer. >> Holy You were the you were the. youngest guy there for four three to. four. >> probably three or four years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm always listening to something on the. road, working out, walking around the. house, traveling, whatever it is. And.

what I like about Amazon Music is it. puts music, podcasts, and audiobooks all. in one app. So now with Amazon Music. Unlimited, you're not just getting music. and podcasts. Your subscription also. includes access to audiobooks, which. makes it easy to keep something good. going no matter what you're doing. I've. been listening to Project Hail Mary, and. that's the kind of audio book that. really works in this format. Hearing the. story and the narrator's voice pulls you. in differently. You get the pacing, the.

tension, the personality of the. characters, and it makes it easy to stay. locked in whether you're driving, training, or knocking things out around. the house. With Amazon Music, you get. music, podcast, and audio books all in. one app. Try it today. I mean, what is that like seeing people. that are have been around longer than. you show up for? >> Yeah, >> especially after you've been there three.

or four years. >> Yeah, I know. I was I remember I ended. up being a an LPO, well, a troop LPO, uh. leading petty officer for the listeners. It's just kind of like a small. leadership role. Basically, in charge of. like making sure guys take out the trash. and that vehicles are topped off with. gasoline. It's nothing that, let's be. real, it's nothing that crazy, but it. was a small leadership position. And I. remember there was uh guys getting to. the squadron who were older and who were. chiefs and uh and I just had made an E6. and I was in charge of them because I.

had tenure at the squadron. So, and I. remember some of those guys having. issues with uh somebody like me, you. know, because they had higher rank and. all of that, but I had the tenure. And. then me at that point having the. confidence to be like I let's not let. this be an issue with you cuz it's not. an issue with me like you're working for. me you know. So now I'm like in this. like I'm starting to like fall into my. own a little bit. Um but it was. interesting. Uh and some guys that just. didn't they didn't care but there's. always ego you know that in this field.

like there's always ego and some high. performance. >> How does that even get expressed? I mean. I mean it's it's. >> Yeah. >> Who do they take issue with? Like this. guy's in charge of me. Yeah. He's been. here four years. He just showed. up. >> Yeah. And the thing was, you know, you. get to in those roles too in leadership, especially at that unit, it's like. you're also proving it by your. performance. So, you're on the you're. still shooting even though you're in a. leadership role, you're still shoot, you're supposed to be at the standard. And so, um, some guys had an issue with. it, some didn't. At the same time, that's was on them, not on me. And, um,

but it wasn't too many. There's a couple. in particular that I think they had some. issues with it because they had so much. tenure in the normal seal or the white. side seal teams that um it slowly went. away because at a certain point it's. like you have to get over it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, one of the in that era, one of. the big experiences for me when I was. really young was in 2005 and what had. been going on in JC historically, you. have the two big units of Delta Force or. the Army and Dev Group, Hill Team 6, and.

there was this really bad inner service. rivalry going on. And there's always. inner service stuff, right? guys just. talking a little back and forth. which is fine but it was stuff that I. believe I don't know u but went back. maybe the '9s some like weird. headbutting rivalry going on and it. wasn't very healthy and General Mcrist. at the time was in charge of JC and he. basically told us like hey you guys are. more alike than you're different this is. getting ridiculous we're going to start. doing exchanges and so um we were. sending teams from each unit each.

squadrons over to each other and they'd. work up for a little bit and then deploy. um which which I thought was really. helpful because we are soul alike. Um it. was just one guy happens to be in the. Navy, one guy's in the army. You see a. guy on nods at night and they look. exactly the same and they're both. worldclass gunfighters, you know, American warriors, right? There's um. nothing but praise for the army. counterparts and for our own guys. A lot. of sacrifice for everyone. But uh I. found myself um on in '05 there was a.

Delta squadron that was in a very. kinetic deployment and they requested. more forces from Dev Group because we. already had a team with them of about 78. guys and they're like hey do you have. any extra guys you can just shoot over. because we um from Afghanistan we just. need young just assaulters we don't need. anybody that's in charge but we're. taking a lot of casualties and so. fortunately myself um Matt Beset who was. on one of your previous podcast and. another guy were sent over cuz all we.

were were just shooters. And I remember flying over, this was. maybe the first 3 weeks of deployment. So we flew from Afghanistan over to Iraq. and I was assigned to a troop, a Delta. troop that was in Rammani. And uh I was. really nervous because I was only on my. second deployment with Red. So I was. still junior and um and I hadn't done. the workup with them where the our team. that was deployed with them had already. gone down to Fort Bragg and worked up. I. knew that basically what their tactics. and techniques were very similar but a. little bit nuanced different and I just.

knew like likely I'd be hitting the. ground right into an operation which is. what happened but I had never worked up. with them. So, I'm young, nervous, still. dealing with imposttor syndrome. And I. remember landing on the airfield in. Rammani uh Stor uh HLZ. uh on Shark Base and a a beat up pickup. truck picked me up at it was I don't. know what time, but the sun was down and. uh and this big guy with a beard comes. up and he was like, "Are you Alex?" And. I was like, "Yeah." And he's like, "I'm.

I'm Bob Han. Um I'm going to be your. shooting buddy and we're going to be. friends." And I was like, "Okay." So, this guy, and I didn't know at the time, but Bob was kind of a a larger than-l. life uh figure at Delta, and he had. already been a team leader, and he was. coming to do his last tour before he. retired. Uh he had 19 years in, I. believe, and it was like one last pump. before he went home. So, he was just. kind of an assaulter, not in a. leadership position, but he was a. breacher. And I remember him saying. like, "Do you breach explosive breach?".

And I said, "Yeah, I I do." And he's. like, "Okay, we're the the team. breachers of of our assault team. I'm. going to just show you the little He's. like, "I know it's the same, but a. little different. Let me just show you. how we do it." And between Bob and I, we. became really close friends. And I to. this day, um, I'm so appreciative of Bob. because I felt like he noticed me just. flying in like that and him being like, "You're with me. We're going to be. friends and I'll show you everything you. need to know." And we became close. friends. And uh every night he would be.

the in those days we were just explosive. breaching the out of everything in. those days. And um from tactics. standpoint we were doing uh hostage. rescue. There was not any of this other. styles of clearance um that would come. later that were safer. It was just boom. like really aggressive running into. buildings. So did Dev Group at the time. We all did that. And um so we would. explosive breach and every night we. would do at least three, four plus. breaches, explosive breaches a night and. Bob and I would swap off as the team.

breacher. So one night maybe I would. place the the explosive charge on the. door, Bob would be my security guard. That charge would go the next time Bob. would place the charge and I would cover. for him. And so we would do that, you. know, sometimes one op a night, sometimes three operations a night. And. we were uh in Ramani and then also out. west in al-Assad and al-Qaeda. specifically in that era. That's the. really hot area of the Iraq war in that. time. And we were just grinding it out. And during that time, Bob and I became. closer and closer friends. And then one.

night we were out and we landed out in. Alaim and you could feel there was. something different in the air. And what. we were doing was we were going to hit. al-Qaeda uh before the Marines pushed. through almost to try to destabilize the. city with taking out high-V value. targets. So when the Marines moved. through, we kind of disoriented the. enemy. And so we're foot patrolling in. and you could feel this energy. There's. something going on. Something going on. was about to happen. And I remember we.

went we're on the street. It was at. night and um it was one team was going. to hit a house across the street and. they were putting a charge on a metal. gate. So they were going to blow the. gate, run in, blow the front door, run. in. And we were going to do the same. thing on the street over. And so it was. Bob's turn to breach on randomly on this. night and he had his his charge out and. I was like, "Okay, cool. I'm right next. to you. We're going to blow the gate and. then we're going to run up. I'll be the. first guy up holding security and you'll.

have the charge and then you'll put the. charge on and blow it. And um and so. that's what we were going to do. We we. like I said, we did this tons of times. before and I remember I'm standing right. next to him like ready to go just like. we did a million times before. Not a. million but a ton. And Bob looked at me. and he just says, "Get back." And I was. like, "Get back?" Okay. He was my. mentor. I was like, "Sure." So I stepped. back a few steps. Maybe I was like. crowding him, whatever. And then he like. looks at me. He's like, "Get back." And. I was like, "Okay." And so I took a few.

more steps back. And then I remember he. he drops his gun. It's just slung. And. he just starts maneuvering his hand like. this, like, "Get the back." And is. almost I can still see his nods, juggling a little bit as he's saying. that. And I'm like, "Okay." Like, "What. did I do wrong? I'm sure I'll hear about. it later, you know, after the off, but I. this like okay." And so I started moving. back. And then now I see I'm in I'm. right next to this charge from the other. team that was going to blow this gate. So I'm standing right in front of it and. I'm thinking, okay, I have to I can't.

eat this charge. I'm gonna get hurt. So. I kept going back even further to get. out of the way of that charge. So now. there's maybe. 20 yards, maybe 15 yards between Bob and. me. I I did know when that gate blew. that one of the other team members was. going to fill my spot. It's just like. pickup basketball, but I didn't want. that cuz he's my shooting buddy. So, I. just knew I'm like, "Okay, as soon as. he's go, I'm going to sprint up as fast. as I can to be Bob's security guy." So, the charges go.

Bob starts to run into the courtyard. I'm sprinting as fast as as I can to be. a security guard, our security guy, but. Mike McNelte, another assaulter, slipped. right in to where um because he was. closer to Bob and as his security guard. And as all of us are sprinting to the. front door of this compound, um there was something going on where. the outdoors, they had lights going on, but inside was all dark and we were on. night vision. And I remember running up. and kind of flicking my helmet up to see.

under my nods. And there was Bob and. Mike in front of me and another. assaulter as the four of us are running. up. And as Bob and Mike enter the door. or right before they enter the door, Bob. says it's o he just yells open. Basically saying like I'm not going to. throw the charge. He throws his charge. to the side to be to just like run in. And there was uh two Belfed machine guns. waiting for them and um and just. unloaded on our train as we were running. in. And you could feel the bullets going.

right past your like the velocity of the. bullets going past. I even had glass in. my face from a piece of window that that. I caught in the face. And um both Bob. and Mike were fell into the into the. room or into the the threshold of the. door and the rest of us just kind of. like pied off to the side to get out of. the way of this volley of intense. machine gun fire coming out of because. it was so close. And then so then we're starting to pie. in the doors and there's like a little. bit of gunfire going in through the.

windows. We're taking some fire from. rooftop and then um Mike gets out. They. pull Mike out and then one of one of the. bravest things that I've seen is one of. the assaulters sees Bob in the threat. this door that just took two beltfed. machine guns that were just unloaded and. you could he could see Bob's leg and he. just pied it pied it exposed himself. into the truly the heart of darkness. grabbed his foot and yanked him out and. just to get his body out. And so I.

remember as they p pulled Bob out and I. saw what had happened to him that I had. a moment of just losing my mind and I. went like berserker essentially and just. saw red that you know they had killed. not just Mike who I cared for a lot but. Bob my mentor and somebody who I really. cared about and um and then I was I. remember we were all like we want. payback to the you know like we want to. get back in there and how which.

tactically it would make sense. Okay, we. got everybody out. Let's just pull back, call in an air strike and kill the guys. in there. But we decided we wanted. payback and this was in a different era. Some people might be like, "You guys. should have done X, Y, and Z." However, this is before combat clearance and. methodical all these things. So, we were. all, I believe, seeing red. I don't want. to speak for the other guys, but I know. for me. And so we took down that hot. house and we started off with something. called a thermmoaric hand grenade that. um we threw into the house which for the.

listeners that particular grenade it's. doesn't throw pieces of fragmentation or. hot metal everywhere. It uses over. pressure uh technology basically like. over pressurize the building to collapse. it or to just over pressurize anybody in. the building. So one of those was thrown. in and I was sitting at a wall right. next to it. went off and I was going to. be the one man into the building. I. remember standing up after it went off. and I'd been concussed by being so close. to this grenade and did a piouette. almost stumbling as I was running.

through the front door. And as I went. with the guys behind me, it wasn't just. me. It was this whole team was very. brave that night. And I remember going. through the front door and it was a. marble floor and just slipping over all. the blood that had been um in that in. the threshold of the door and feeling so. vulnerable where I'm concussed. I'm. slipping all over this marble floor. >> Bob's blood. >> Yeah. Bob and Mike's and and and that. was something I would have years later. even flashbacks of I'd see white marble.

floors in hotels and just see almost. like the shining like blood going right. down it. But um but back to to that. night, I remember going in and as we. were clearing room by room, there was uh. sandbag bunkers within each room and we. were just clearing it with hand. grenades. And um and as that was. happening, the bad guys came out the. back and the rangers, our blocking. position, ended up finishing them. But. when that night ended, we were still. going, that was just we had to continue.

to route out all of these networks that. night. And I remember using all my. breaching charges and it was a big night. of fighting. And then um and not knowing. what happened to Bob and Mike and I. figured certainly um Bob, but I wasn't. sure about Mike. But when we got back um. you know we were a lot of us covered in. blood and um and we were told of what. happened um with Bob that they had both. passed. And then I remember um you know. those guys were larger than life and.

even though I was on an exchange guy. especially Bob I was just shattered by. it and so was everybody else but it was. this campaign's ongoing um here's an. ambient take ambient cuz you have to get. back up and we're going back out. tomorrow night and and that's exactly. what happened. Yeah. But it's um in my and I I might be. jumping ahead but in my own healing. journeys um whether it's plant medicine. meditation Bob still comes up for me. Um.

the spirit of him I don't know how or. why but he's always there. I can even. feel him here today. I I feel that he. and I recently in one of those. experiences he showed up to me and I. asked him like why would you not let me. die with you? And um and he said that's. because you have work to do. You need to help show people a healing. path. There's so much there's so much.

pain and suffering. You have to show. people how to heal. And um because I had. struggled with survivors guilt for so. much because of that because Mike took. my spot because I didn't die with Bob. Um that it I finally got some healing. from that realizing like, okay, I'll do. the best I can. I I don't know what that. means, but I I'll just keep basically it. wasn't my time is what Bob was saying. I. had more work to do, but I feel his. spirit when I'm down. Um I can feel it.

in my heart that he's like pushing me. like just keep going. >> I think you're doing it, man. >> Yeah. Thanks, man. I. Yeah, it's when I am. worried. There's times I'm like worried. that I'm letting him down, but then I. can feel him coming back and and just. like giving me Like, calm down. Get over yourself. Just get the. back in there and keep doing it. Like, get out of your head. You have a mission.

to do. >> Why do you feel like you're letting him. down at times? I think. you know that imposttor syndrome stuff. where now that I've gotten out and now I. work in a lot of different areas of. mental health. I just hope that I can. It's almost like Bob I feel like Bob. saved me so that I can do this and and I. want to make sure that I'm upholding his. honor um and fulfilling that mission um.

because of how important he was to me. And um and I think that's why every now. and then I just get in my own head of. you know that maybe I'm not doing. enough. But then I I realized it's. almost Bob saying like dude it's a. marathon not a sprint. Like you can't. just like boil the ocean. Just keep. going. Just keep trying to do good in. the world. Yeah. >> Do you think he knew what was on the. other side of the door? Yeah, I do. Cuz I don't know why.

There's no reason why he would turn. around and tell me to keep moving back. There was no there wasn't a tactical. reason for it. Um I don't recall doing. anything that he would have been mad. Like I just really don't. Um, there was. something off. You could feel it when we. landed in the helicopters that something. dark was about to happen. You could feel. it when we were placing charges on the. gates. Um, I could feel it, you know, I. I could almost sense like something was.

about to go down and u but when he kept. telling me I there was no re and. repeatedly, not just like, hey, bro, like give me some space. It was like and. especially when he was like stopped, dropped his rifle, had a reaching charge. in his hand and was like motioning for. me to back like get the back and. and I so I feel like he knew something. was happening. I don't know for sure, but in my gut I don't know why he would. have acted like that. Um I can't.

come up with another reason why he would. do that. It was just so unlike him to do. that. How many times did you guys breach doors. together before that? O. 50 probably. Um. yeah, I would say I I don't know maybe. give or take 10 on that. So at least. around 50 easy. In those days we were. just breaching so much. Um and going out. every night like I was mentioning like.

one to three times. So it was and. there's always explosive breaching and. every time we went out there might be. multiple breaches in that on that. operation because maybe it's we hit one. it's like oh we hit the neighbor he's. next door you know or um or the guy. saying like yeah this is the wrong house. but there's a whole cell IED cell down. the road I can lead you there and it's. like okay let's go check it out. breaching charge boom um so yeah we had. done probably I'm just around number 50. I'd say. >> wow.

>> what would you say to him today. >> that I love him, that I appreciate his. mentorship all the way from picking me. up from the HLZ right off the bat, not. allowing me to feel like I didn't belong. of just him saying, "You're my shooting. buddy. We're going to be friends right. the the moment um I got into that unit.". And then he would drag me around, introduce me to everybody and was like a. big brother really. And um he was larger.

than life. Uh to be honest, it wasn't. just a guy. It was a guy with a really. great reputation. Um really great sense. of humor. Um yeah. Yeah. If he was here, I would, you know, I miss him and um and. I appreciate everything he did for me. and I believe continues to do for me. Like the spirit of him, I can sense it. >> Do you feel like you're at peace with. it? >> I feel like I'm getting there. Um, especially after the recent experiences.

of of sensing him and all of that, I I'm. getting to a better place of it. I mean, that was over 20 years ago, 21 years. ago, you know, I have the it on the calendar. and I get I send myself reminders like a. week out, you know, and then like six. days out. Um, just to remind myself that. the day is coming and so that gets. easier every time to where it happens. and I'm able just to kind of like sit. with it. It's not a surprise. Um, but. yeah, it's just as the years go on, it's.

just now starting to um lose some of its. momentum because I'm becoming at more at. peace with it because of the messages I. was getting from Bob that I have a job. to do. >> How did those messages come. >> in plant medicine? Um, he's sat down in. front of me and and just told me that. Um, and. yeah, mo mostly in plant medicine and. just letting me know like, hey man, we. there's more work to do. There's a lot.

of suffering going on in this world. Um, but yeah, mostly plant medicine, but in. meditation, too. I I've had it. And. there'll be times even when something. tough comes up, whether it's him or the. guys from extortion, I will in I'll ask. for their support like, I'm really. struggling right now. Um, can you guys. help me? and um like recently went. through a divorce, that type of a thing. And and I can feel them just be like, "We've we've got you, dude." You know, essentially like emotionally, we'll pick. you up from the airport and you're our. shooting buddy.

Yeah, man. I'm sorry. Thank you. Um, I feel also with the healing, just glad. that I knew guys like Bob and Mike and a. bunch of other friends that passed in. those wars. Feel. better off knowing them, but because of. what an impact they had on me, it was it. has been tough, but um my I can't.

imagine my life without knowing those. guys. Yeah. Was. that the first first run that you lost. in combat? >> That was. And um. a couple years later, the guy was. mentioning Mark Carter on the the. rollerblades. He and I were old. roommates and stayed friends and he was. killed in Iraq. Um and then it just. started, you know, more and more uh. roommates or um friends. Um it just.

started compiling um after that and it. just and as that was going on my combat. tours were increasing and and I was. either getting hurt or friends were. getting hurt or wounded as that was. going on my drinking started it's almost. like you could follow it as the. intensity and trauma started going up. the drinking started going up with it. and then within the culture as I'm sure. you know in the the military. specifically the SEAL teams or pardon me.

special operations that's just part of. it is, you know, you have that. There's. no other way to really off gas anything. It's not like I mean, I guess you could, there's other ways, but that's just the. culture of it. That's what you do. And I. found myself self starting to pick up a. bad habit of drinking too much and. numbing my pain with alcohol. Probably I. would say it started to become a thing. around 2008 or so, but it was building. up to that and then it would just end up. getting worse as the years went on. >> What is the day you died? Yeah, June.

17th um was the the night that Bob and. Mike were killed. 2005. >> Do you do anything specific on June. 17th? >> I do. Um, I started a tradition um with. any friends um where I take a a Chinese. lantern which you can just buy on Amazon. and I'll take a Sharpie and I'll just. write a message. uh to the guys whether if it's Bob and. Mike on June 17th or extortion. I I'll.

just write messages and then I'll I'll. go and I'll have like a moment either. I'll either have a friend with me or. I'll do it solo. Sometimes I like doing. it solo and I'll just sit with it for a. moment and then launch the lantern and. then just from in a therapy sense it's. called experiential technique but just. like watching it launch off and when I. started that not to jump around but a a. really like my best friend Rob Reeves. um we were in actually like Thailand on. a vacation and we were at this crazy.

full moon party and this it was a fun. time and then he said I want to do. something for uh Nate Hardy and Mike. Cook, a couple other SEALs that had been. killed, friends of ours. And in this. like crazy madness, he went and bought a. couple Chinese lanterns and and we. actually launched them almost to of a. form of. like memorizing them, pardon me. And and. because of that, and then Rob would end. up being killed in extortion um a year.

and a half later. And because of that, I. do that for all of those guys, all those. those dates. I do it as a tip of the hat. to Rob also. But it also feels good that. I'm almost like writing them a message. and Sharpie and launching it. Um, I don't know. It just feels nice. And I would encourage any anyone who's. struggling or with grief of how to. handle it. I would encourage maybe. exploring something like that Chinese.

lantern or even writing something down. and just burning it in a fire pit or or. your sink even. But, um, it's helped me. at least, maybe not for everyone, but. for me it's helped a lot to just deal. with the grief. >> How long have you been doing that? I've. been doing that for probably the last. eight years. Yeah. And it's interesting. because um yeah, you can buy them in. like 10 packs on Amazon. Not that. anybody's looking for a deal, but um. it's just easy. Just a couple clicks, it's at your door. And um and I think.

I'll continue to do that. And I I just. can't imagine not doing that. It only. takes a few minutes, but it's worth it. >> Do you have a family? >> I have my my mom. Uh, and my sister, my. cousin Pete, and um that's pretty much. it. So, I just have a small family. >> No. Did he have. >> Oh, did Oh, pardon me. Um, did Bob Yeah, he did. He had a wife. Um, Mike had kids. Yeah, they had wives. All.

a lot of those. Yeah, everybody. Um, Bob. and Mike actually were both identical. twins. >> What? >> Yeah, >> they were identical. >> No, no, they they had identical twins. Pardon me. Pardon me. Yeah. Both Bob had. his own identical twin and Mike. So the. randomness of that and I went down to. Fort Bragg uh to the Delta compound um. to help pay my respects to their. memorial service there. And I remember. seeing both of their brothers there and. they looked exactly like them. And um.

and I remember just thinking like, wow, what the the chances of of that. happening? Um. yeah, stranger than fiction almost. But. there's. yeah it is tough to think of the ripple. effect of you know it's one thing you. know they went out like warriors truly. in a a hail of gunfire both of them. running to the gunfire um a warrior's. death but at the same time it is the. ripple effect of the families and all of.

that is um I can't imagine what that. must be like for them. Did you notice any differences between. Delta and Dev Group? >> Yeah, there there was some nuanced. things here and there like tactics and. stuff like that, but um the mentality. was very similar. Um, and I feel like. those exchange pro programs, uh, those. that era did a great job because later.

on we'd cross paths in Iraq, uh, when I. was in my Red Squadron troop and the. Delta troop would be there and I'd know. everybody there, right? Cuz I was like. friends with them. So this whole like. kind of sniffing type thing. going on, like comparing kind of went. away and it was more of like um because. we're more alike than we were different. That way if if maybe one of the. breachers in our team would be like, "Hey, do you know the breacher over. there?" So we can kind of I just want to. know how they do things or a sniper. wants to talk to a sniper. It'd be easy. to just connect them. But to answer your.

question, um you know, both those units. have all the money you could need so. they have the best technology, the best. instruction. Um the mentality, both. hardcore warriors, I believe, some of. America's top. Um, you know, the only. difference. I can see is, um, on the Navy side, we're obviously the maritime unit. So, we're doing a lot of, you know, a. maritime type stuff where, uh, the. Army's mostly focused. Not that they. don't have some aspects of that, but.

that's the big thing that's different. Outside of that though, like I mean I. know a lot of people want to hear some. kind of like crazy comparison, but um. having done not just that exchange but. more operations with them later on, I. personally have nothing but respect for. all of those guys. And um and I don't. know if there's too much of a difference. to be honest. Uh and it's not just that. but you know the other units that I was. working with was the Ranger Regiment. just to give a shout out to them. I've. been in dragout fights with all three um.

battalions, all great guys, all the Air. Force, PJs, controllers, TF-160, the air. crew. Um you know, certainly of course. SEAL teams and SF, you know, it was just. like this. At the end of the day, there. is differences with everyone, but the. the but we're all more alike than we are. different, I believe. Um yeah. >> Did you ever do a maritime op over. there? >> No, I didn't. when the Captain Phillips.

thing was going down, um I was actually. a green team cadre instructor and I. remember when it was starting to happen, I ran up to my master chief because I. was a tandem uh a tandem master and I. knew they always needed tandem masters. to jump in whatever intel people or. whatever and uh so I ran up there with. all my stuff and I asked him I was like. don't worry pretty much like I'm here. like I got my tandem rig I'm ready to go. and I remember he just looked at me Jim. him looked right at me. He goes, "Uh,

Alex, uh, don't worry. We are going to. be just fine without you." Like, I need. you down in training. Go back down to. training. I was like, but but he's like, trust me, we don't need you. And I was like, I know you don't need. me. I'm just trying to get on as many as. I can. Like, whatever. Fine. >> Oh, man. We didn't talk about your first. deployment at all. first deployment at. Red. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We were um I was a part of an.

Omega team which Omega for the listeners. it was u essentially JC special. operations guys that were attached to. CIA paramilitary and the reason why we. were attached to them was because um. within the agency they don't have the. ability to call in air strikes or. medevac or medical helicopters if. there's um somebody gets wounded or. killed. And so we would be assigned to. them and um and I was in this outpost. called Afghanistan which was in Pakika.

province right on the border of Pakistan. really bad area you know getting. rocketed or pretty much every day and it. was right on I mean we were right at the. bottom of base of a mountain which was. in Pakistan and the Taliban would just. launch rockets at us all day. But that. was my my first deployment um was in. Afghanistan in '04 with with Red. Squadron and we actually had a couple of. the army guys with us on that exchange. That's what you guys when I was. contracting. >> uh.

for um GRS. I would Yeah. I would see. the Omegas. I'd hang out with you guys. Yeah. >> I was wondering what the you guys. doing. >> So did we. >> Yeah. Yeah. We and we would um I I did. one there and I did one in Jalalabad. Um. I was yeah I was usually somehow. affiliated with the majority of them. whether you know sometimes you'd be in. those uh or you'd be in a strike force. which would just meant that you're in a. team of SEALs that were it's just you. guys hitting targets um or you'd rotate.

in as an Omega where you're more of an. adviser. Um, so yeah, I enjoyed those. That was, you know, 04, man. Technology. was still making its, you know, improving, but it was still not what it. was. Very old school when I think back. on it. And, um, but I love that it was. like wide open. It was like cowboy. country. And as a young SEAL and. operator, it was like it was just very. cool. Uh, and I and the experience to do.

that was was great. And for my first. deployment was very cool, too. But yeah, then that second one was with the army. and then um and then just many more. after that. >> Do you remember the first time you. killed somebody? >> Yes. I was um that I know for sure. I was um. there was we call this squirter which. just meant a guy ran off of a target. that we were targeting and he went into.

some bushes and this is in Iraq and um I. mean I'd shot my gun a ton of times at. people and probably my rounds hit a guy. while somebody else was shooting but. this is the first time I know um and we. the ISR so for the listeners uh an. airplane was shooting a uh infrared. laser at this bush saying like this is. where this guy ran into um and so we're. like, "Okay, let's go get him." And it. was at night in a field and we had a. military working dog named Spike who is.

also killed later on. Awesome dog. And. so we're kind of online, my team of. about five guys or so towards this bush. And I just but there's this wind that. was going back and forth. So the dog. needs the scent. But when when it's. windy like that, it's really hard for it. to kind of really get down to where this. guy might be. And we're getting closer. and closer to this bush and we ask the. ISR basically the airplane, hey, like. kill that that sensor because it's kind. of disorienting the closer you get to.

the bush. So, we killed it and we're. kind of like looking in it. It doesn't. look like there's anybody in there. And. I remember getting right up on the bush. and leaning leaning into the bush a. little bit to see if I could see it cuz. we didn't have thermals in those days. And unbeknownst to me, there was in the. bush there was a guy with a pistol. pointing it right right at me. And we're. maybe just three or four feet away from. each other. I can't see anything under. my night vision. And then finally, Spike. catches the u the scent. And then like a.

missile just jumps right in and and I. could feel his body even like hitting me. as as he hits this guy. And uh he drops. the gun or scramble the gun and that's. when I engaged and killed him. Um, that. was the the first of, you know, dozens. How did that feel? That was I remember when it happened. getting a a jolt of adrenaline and um.

and then also I'm I'm happy with that. when I'm not happy like a I don't want. to sound like a psychopath, but like I'm. happy that basically Spike saved my life. and that I was able to to engage that. guy. Um because without Spike, it could. have been a very different situation. So. it's almost like a killer be killed. So. that adrenaline just really dumped. >> Mhm. >> Um and then it was and yeah afterwards. like kind of thinking like wow I can't. believe like that I actually killed some.

like I know before like I mentioned I. know I shot a bunch of people but never. just like that. Um. yeah, but as time went on and as more. operations went on and more killing went. on, uh this funny thing about like the. human psyche, it would just become like. less and less and it would just be and. then even as I would notice as more. operations were happening, my um heart. rate, everything would just be more like. just chill, like just very even if. bullets were flying. Don't get me wrong,

there's times where I would be amped up. I'm not saying I wasn't scared at times, but with the more reps, it got to the. point where it was more machine-like. It. was more tactics. It was more um to the. point where I thought like almost felt. bad for the enemy, like you're not going. to be able to kill me, which sounds. arrogant, but that's how I felt at the. time. Um as long as my feet were on the. ground with my kid on and my buddies, um. I just didn't feel I mean, I knew there. was a puncher's chance that I could. easily get killed like many guys did,

but I just over time started feeling. more and more confident with it, which. is a as I reflect back on it kind of a. weird place to be, right? That you were. becoming more confident at killing and. um but that was just the world that that. we lived in. >> You know, you talk about. some of your friends coming back to. visit you in plant medicine. Yeah. Does the other happen?

>> Does it ever happen? >> Does the other happen? Does the any of. the people that you've killed, have they. ever visited you? >> They do. Um, yes. I I've had. when my symptoms of PTSD. I was really. struggling and I still do. Um, I have. one where I once had to uh shoot a man. really close and it must have hit. something in between his eyes where it. just came out like a hose. Um, and I. would have I I remember walking even in.

like shopping malls or just and just. seeing somebody approach me and look at. me and almost shoot me with blood out of. their in between their eyes. Um, so. things like that, nightmares, night. terrors, um, regret, you know, sometimes, you know, we were dealing. with a lot of suicide bombers and so. lots of times, you know, people would. run up to us and clack themselves off. with a suicide vest or sometime, but. what that would result in is the next. time you see someone that is like. reaching around their waist or whatever, you might be quicker on the on the.

trigger. Um, so there was and then that. would lead to maybe a shot you wish you. wouldn't have taken. So there was just a. lot of as those wars grinded on and on. and on, the enemy got smarter. Uh, it. just got darker in those wars and it and. it got to the point where I was like, "What the are we doing over here?". And um just because it just kept. dragging on. But to answer your. question, yeah, I I struggled and. sometimes I still do with uh people that. I've I've killed, especially as an.

assaulter. A lot of that was very up. close inside of rooms, like gunfights. within rooms. And so it was, you know, when that's happening, you're getting. chunks of people's, you know, brain on. your gear or your or skull or whatever. It's just up close and personal. It's. brutal and something I wish us as humans. wouldn't do to each other um now that I. look back on it. But it's just um. because of the toll that it takes on on. this human spirit, you know, just on. myself, my mental health. Um I don't.

want that for for a younger version of. me who might be in the military unless. it's like our country is getting. attacked or something like that, but not. in something like what would be perhaps. the quagmire of Iraq. Um of like we did. all of that for what? And so um and I. think that really is a negative for my. own mental health. It'd be different if. it was it was worth it, but now it's. more of like scratching your head of. like what were we doing? And you know, we gave this generation of guys not only.

whether it was their lives or their. physical um you know like their bodies. and all that, but it's also their mental. health because it is like what are we. doing? Almost like my father's. generation in Vietnam saying the same. thing. >> When did you arrive there at that. mentality? in probably 2011. >> So, you were still on. >> Oh, I was definitely in I was still an. assault team. There was after the Bin. Laden raid um is when I started feeling. that way cuz it was like, okay, we got.

the guy. Um al-Qaeda's out of. Afghanistan. Yeah, sure. There's like. some trickling in from time to time. Um. but it and I knew I saw what was. happening in Iraq and I just I remember. being a team leader and just you know we. would get given these operations that. were very um dangerous in really tough. areas like let's say in eastern. Afghanistan and Konar and things like. that in the cornal and thinking like as. a leader like some of my guys might get. killed um or wounded. Yeah, we trained. hard but it is war. So is it worth it.

though? You know, I remember even as a. team leader leaving on deployment and. we'd have barbecues and my guys in my. team, their wives would tell me like, "Will you will you promise me that. you'll bring back soand so like my. husband?" And then just looking at them. and lying and just saying, "Of course.". But in my mind being like the pressure, you know, of like the leader like I. can't promise that. And then thinking. like then fast forward to the. affformentioned type of missions I was. talking about where it's like the what. are what are we doing? like, yeah, that's going to yeah, we are the unit we.

are, but I'm not trying to be gunshy, but what are we doing? And that's when. it started for me. And that's also when. my mental health started spiraling was. um after the Bin Laden raid, like. suicidal ideiation and all sorts of. things um which was not good, you know, especially when you're a leader, you know. I mean, looks like we're. gearing up for one right now. Yeah, I.

know. What kind of advice do you have. for the guys? Because they they're very aware of. what's going on. There's no confusion. anymore. >> No, they know this isn't for us. No, it's not. Um, I would just tell them, I know what you. have to do. I know if you get asked to. do something, you have to do it. However, just know the consequences of. what you're going to do. If the war gets.

to a point where things start getting. dark, and they do in combat, where guys. start getting. feeding into the darkness, it's not. worth it. Just back off. If you don't. need to take the shot, don't take the. shot. Don't If you start feeling the. blood lust, which is a thing, and the. guys who are listening, some people may. not understand, but some people will who. are listening. It's probably the guys. you're talking about about the blood. lust. Don't feed into the blood lust. Not for a war like that. Our if our.

country was being attacked, maybe that's. one thing, but you will pay the. price if you feed into the blood lust. for, you know, a a war that is just unjust. That's my main advice for them. And to. be in my main mission, especially for. men, especially for veterans, is to be. okay to reach out for mental health. Like it is worth it. is you deserve it. and the sooner you can start getting. into that the better and the less. yourself, your family um are going to. feel the impacts of it.

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All right, Alex, back from the break. Yep. >> Had a good lunch. >> Sure did. >> Let's get into Neptune Spear. >> All right, let's do it. >> When did that come across your guys'. radar? >> Yeah. In um. 2011, we had just gotten back from uh at. least my troop had just gotten back from. Afghanistan and we had just gotten off a.

leave and we went into the team room and. all of a sudden they asked for all at. the time I was a team leader. um all of. the team leaders and they ran off a list. team leaders and two IC's uh so the. second in charge of each team so the. pretty much the most senior guys or the. more senior guys we wanted to see all in. this office and went in this office and. we knew something might be going on but. we had just gotten back from deployment. so probably who knows it would be the. some other squadrons were more likely.

going to do something if we did go out. and do it but they mentioned that we had. been chosen to do a mission and they. didn't mention what it was, but that we. would be briefed on it um later on. And. we all thought at the time the Arab. Spring was going on in uh Libya and was. we were bombing Libya and we thought. well it probably has something to do. with Libya uh and not sure what that. meant but uh so we went in they told us. that and they keep it to ourselves like. this was a very um you know secret thing.

and so we end up driving down to another. undisclosed base and I remember as we. walked into this base uh seeing a bunch. of very high ranking people in the. military and intelligence communities. and knowing who they were and I'm. talking like the high ranking people and. thinking, "Oh, this is something big. This is not maybe something in Libya. >> like directorate.". >> Yeah. Yeah. Very high. Yeah. and like uh. Admiral McCraven um was there and uh.

yeah people from the agency like high. ranking and that point I thought okay. there's something going on and we sat. down and the analyst started briefing us. that essentially we think we know where. someone is uh living and when she said. that I remember feeling because we had. chased him for so long or chased his. network for so long and obviously came. up with nothing. And I felt like almost. puking just to have a human moment.

Yeah. A human moment of like I mean I'd. like to say that it was like you know. yeah let's go get him. And it was. but it was also like whoa like we think. we have him. And they went on and said. we he's in Oad Abadabad Pakistan which. is closer to India than it was. Afghanistan. So very deep into Pakistan. And they mentioned that um we that. Pakistan will not know about this. operation and that we have to keep it. very close-lipped. Um and uh they went.

on and they talked about the dangers of. it uh as far as uh surfacetoair. missiles, anti- um aircraft guns, F-16s. that the Pakistanis had and that we. would be flying once again deep in. Afghanistan right on the border of India. where they are having historical border. skirmishes. So they're on a heightened. alert there and so it was going to be. very dangerous to be able to fly in. there. the likelihood of being shot down. um was I wouldn't say high, but it was a.

possibility for sure. And so they were. briefing us up on that and we didn't. know for sure if he was there. Now, the. analyst had said, "Oh, he's there 100%.". And I remember thinking just from my. experience that you just never say 100%. It's like you jinx it. And I thought to. myself like, "They don't know what. they're talking about." You know, there's no way anything is 100%. Maybe. it's a high chance, but I don't believe. that it's 100%. Regardless, we started uh doing some.

training on some mock-ups, meaning they. built essentially the compound. The wall. around the compound instead of a 20ft. high concrete cinder block wall was. chainlink fence, which will come back to. bite us in the later. And then also a. big plywood building that essentially. showcased what the compound was. We. didn't know what it was like on the. inside, but at that unit or any of those. types of units, it's not that big of a. deal of what's inside. We just knew. we'll figure it on the inside. But it. was the big movements of how we're going.

to take down the target contingencies. and things like that that we need to to. work out. >> Uh, >> real quick. >> Yeah. >> How many of you guys were there on the. brief? >> There was 23 of us plus those are 23. operators were going to be on it. We had. a couple, if I recall, two to four. alternates um that would get briefed in. So if one of the 23 guys got hurt in. training or had a family emergency, couldn't make it, there was a pool of. alternates that would go in there. So I. would say and we had some support um.

from intelligence to communications, things like that. So I mean I'd say. maybe 35 people total. >> Who's picking these guys? >> That's a good question. So, it was. picked from the top from our squadron. Um, it picked us and at the time, uh, one of the operators brought up a great. question, which I don't disagree with, was why did we not just pick one one of. our three troops? Because within each. troop, it's already designed to be um, self-contained where now you're kind of.

cherrypicking the more experienced guys. So, when it came to basic things like. who's the breacher, it's like, oh, let's. figure out who the breacher is. um or. it's the most simple things of who's. going to grab the vans to take us to the. range and you know within a troop or a. platoon or whatever people just know. like oh that's so and so's. responsibility but we didn't have any of. that and also there wasn't like it was. weird to work out the hierarchy so we. were working through our own stuff but. it was not uh it was told to us who was. going to be on it. >> why didn't they just use a.

>> I don't know I I think their thought was. this is the highest risk and profile. mission um at least in the global war on. terror perhaps um. maybe in modern military I don't know. let's just say global war on terror and. so we don't want to mess it up so we. want to pick the most senior guys I'm. not saying I entirely agree with that if. they just kept it with the unit but at. the same time I wasn't about to complain. about it right I wasn't going to stick. up my hand and be like because they. might be like all right cools like uh. yeah if you want to do it that way.

you're going to be on the backup team or. whatever. >> so uh. >> what would you have done. >> a troop. >> you would have done a troop. >> I would have picked one of troops. I. would have probably known if I was the. squadron master chief, and this isn't a. knock on that squadron master chief at. all because I don't know what he was. dealing with or whatever, but I would. have picked probably the most. proficient, the strongest of my three. troops and I probably would have picked. it. But um. yeah, that's what I would have likely. done. It worked out regardless, but um. just because of all of the who's who. It.

was a bunch of team leaders, so it was. kind of like who's in charge of the team. leaders. um like is there a senior one. or and then there's just a lot of excess. bandwidth that went into figuring things. out that was already figured out within. uh a troop that had been established. So they we started our training. >> I bet that raised a lot of questions too. on why. >> crazy people are getting pulled out of. their teams. >> Yeah. And then it was hard because they. told us this information and it and. everybody not just from the squad or. other squadrons like well what are the.

red squadron guys up to you with. internally it's like and so you're. getting hit from every angle from and. you just have to be like no I I can't. talk about it. Like I know for me I was. not going to be the guy that that gave. it up. I remember even at the time I was. single uh and going out in Virginia. Beach and having buddies hit me up like, "Hey, let's go out to whatever, you. know, like Chicks Oyster Bar or. whatever." And uh and saying, "No, I. can't go out. I'm not going out cuz I. know like it's going to like I don't. want to be out. One of my buddies is. going to be like, "Here's a shot of.

tequila. Like, let's do it." And then. like, "Hey, so what's been going on with. X, Y, and Z?" So, I remember thinking to. myself like, I will not go out because I. don't even want to put myself in that. situation um to where I might say. something. So, I just stayed in my house. just like watching movies like young. single guy, you know, on a Friday night. like I'm just going to watch a movie. And um how old are you? >> 31 at the time. Yeah. I had just uh got. in my team as an assault team leader and.

uh I was at the top of my game. operationally at that time. And um so. yeah the so we started planning for it. the role that I had was uh so in the. compound the primary entrance was. actually the back door of this primary. building and that's where they felt that. bin Laden and his couriers were and his. son were living and um and there's. another there's a couple other small. buildings but our role my job was to.

essentially with my team we would have. loved to have not been this aggressive. But we did not have the time or the fuel. to do it. So we had to fly our. helicopter right to the right in front. of that back door, kick out a fast rope, which to the listeners, a fast rope is. essentially a fireman's pole, but it's a. rope. So you you kick it out and then. you slide down it like a fireman's pole, just a way to insert. And so we were. going to fly right there with one sniper. overlooking the compound just in case a. guy came out with an AK. Um, and then.

through the fast rope, fast rope down. And then my team was to essentially go. right up the middle of the compound. And. um so that that was our role. Another. team was supposed to fast rope on top of. the roof and we were going to meet in. the middle. Um and then there was. another element that went off to the. side too. There's another courier, another small building to take that out. And so that was all supposed to happen. simultaneously. Um once again, we would. have loved to have been able to like. land way out in some field and sneak up.

That would have been great, but we just. didn't have the fuel. The one of the. main things was we had to accomplish. this mission within 38 minutes because. we didn't have the fuel to do it. So, if. we did not get out in 38 minutes, we. were told you're going to have to just. Alamo up and um and just fight off until. that's it. Um or you become a political. prisoner. What's sucked about that also was in the. military there's for people who don't. know there's things called speed balls. or essentially uh bags full of.

ammunition extra ammunition breaching. charges uh medical equipment and that's. usually you take on a mission especially. if you knew there's a chance that you. might have to LMO up and so you would. kick out these bags so that you could. have a ton of ammunition but the problem. is we couldn't take those because of the. weight restrictions because we're so. deep into Pakistan to burn fuel. So, and they were even asking guys like, "Hey, are there is there even weapons. and stuff that you guys can ditch?" And. um I was crazy looking back on at the.

time. I was like, "I can ditch my pistol. because I I might not need that." Um of. course I needed it, but I was like, "I. can ditch that." And I remember thinking. all I had was four magazines. >> Did you ditch it? >> I did. And all I had was four. I. remember my load out. It was four. magazines. So like three across my. chest, one in my 416, my rifle. I had a. frag grenade, a thermal barrack grenade, an internal charge, and that was it. It. was just as streamlined as it got. because we just did not have the weight.

And I remember even thinking like, well, maybe I'll sneak in a magazine or two. and nobody will know the difference. I. literally thought and I would I'll. probably say here in a minute, but I. just we didn't have the weight. And so, uh, the Alamo up thing was a death. sentence essentially that it's like we. just will not have no matter how good of. shots we are, we just will run out of. ammunition if we don't make it past 38. minutes or if we if we stay longer than. 38 minutes. So, we started um, so that was a big. factor. Also, each helicopter was had.

the ability to do the whole mission by. itself. Meaning there was a high chance. that one of them was going to get shot. down on the insertion into a bad by the. Pakistani air force. And so instead of a. normal mission would be okay if if a. helicopter gets shot down or has engine. problems whatever the other one will. divert and now the new mission is to. recover those guys and figure that out. But on this particular mission, it was. that goes down, we are going. We are. already committed that we'll figure that. out later. But that other helicopter is.

going straight for it. And that other. helicopter had the ability to take to do. everything. It obviously with half the. guys, but we were already committed. So. some of the things that they were. looking to do is be able to gather the. intelligence from uh the building, but. also to take biometrics from the body of. Bin Laden, meaning taking tissue samples. and things like that. And um we also had. to plan for a safe room. Meaning for the. listeners uh sometimes what you get in. high ranking people there might be. almost like a a safe like a closet that.

is fortified that somebody might lock. themselves in. So if we ran into that. that was going to be a time restraint. So how do we get through that? So there. was some breaching charges and things. like that that we had but each. helicopter had their own in case they. had to run into that. Another factor. that we had to worry about was how do we. actually take it down in the speed that. we need to. Of course, we want to take. it down fast. However, when you take. things down fast, um you're increasing. the chance of um a guy getting wounded.

cuz you're not you're slowing I mean. you're not going slow, you're going. fast. So, if a guy does get wounded, it. wasn't that we were worried about myself. or one of the guys worried like I might. get wounded. It was kind of it's a very. strong possibility, but it was the speed. that it would take to if a guy does get. wounded, one of the guys, now we have to. render him aid. Now we have to get him. on a stretcher. Now we have to now it's. just time time starts ticking. So it's. like, okay, how do we kind of do a. hybrid of where we're going fast, but.

kind of cheating a few like extra slow. moments here and there to buy down risk. to getting wounded? Not that we're. worried about being wounded, but because. of the timeline. other factors was how. do we retrieve all of the intelligence. as fast as we can because likely the. target will go down and now we're. thinking it's likely going to be a gold. mine but how do we get as much as we can. out in a short amount of time. So. there's all these little things, these. little planning things that we're trying. to work out and then we and we just keep. repping it out and we're going through.

different contingencies. What if one. helicopter crashes, which is an. important thing because that's what. would happen, but it's like what if one. crashes? What do we do? What if uh you. know they hop in a vehicle and it it. drives down the street as we're. inserting. Does one helicopter go after. it and the other take down the building? There's all these things that we had to. work through. And so um we keep training, keep. training for, if I recall, it was about. 2 and 1/2 weeks or so. We went to some. different sites, but one major factor. was on that first uh mockup was the.

chainlink fence um where the helicopter. would come in. the chain link fence that. was mimicking the 20 foot high cinder. block wall. So I'll come back to why. that is important here in a minute. But. so we kept repping it out and then. finally we deploy and I'm still not. thinking that it's going to happen. It's. just like now this is too ballsy of a. call for the president to make because. we're essentially invading a a sovereign. country without them knowing to. potentially go after a guy who's.

potentially there. Right. and and and if. something happens, that team is going to. be, like I mentioned, either dead or. political prisoners. So, that's going to. be a whole quagmire to worry about. politically. So, I I personally was like, I still. don't know if this is going to happen. Of course, I'm taking it serious like. that. Yes, this is going to happen, but. in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, I. doubt it. So we still end up everything's going. and we deploy to um Afghanistan and and. once we got there and we're still just.

kind of getting ready and we're still. playing this whole not telling everybody. what we're doing and we kind of had this. cover story of well we got surged back. over because there's a big campaign. coming up that was kind of our story. Uh. so if we saw somebody in the chow hall. that because we had just my troop had. just been in Afghanistan in that same. base maybe six weeks prior, maybe five. weeks prior. So we were had to work. through a cover story of like somebody. like the guy who works in the chow hall. or one of the ranger platoon that are. there that you know you might know these.

guys and they're like what are you guys. doing back? And our story was like well. we're here because there's I don't know. there's some big campaign I'd rather be. back on leave or whatever. So, we kind. of had to play that game until the the. final I one thing I a caveat I want to. bring back to while we were briefing the. President Obama at the time asked our. planners um well what happens you guys. keep talking about these F-16s what if. the guys are flying back after the. mission and the uh Pakistani scramble. their F-16s to shoot down the.

helicopters what are you guys going to. do about that and um the military I. think and I'm just assuming they didn't. want to come up with too drastic of. plans because they wanted the mission to. go or like they did not believe that it. would get approved. So, uh, our bosses. were kind of like, well, you know, we're. going to just we'll have to figure it. out. However, President Obama, to his. credit, did say, I want a couple flights. of F-15s or whatever it is, whatever. fighter jets we have that will shoot. down the Pakistani F-16s if they're.

coming after our guys. I will I will. take a hit on it. And I remember hearing. that and just being like, that is. ballsy. like like hats off to him that. through all of that he could have easily. just said, "Well, okay, the military. guys are saying they're going to just. pedal to the metal on the helicopters. and fly out of there. Hopefully they get. away from the F-16s." But he had the. gumption to just be like, "I'm not going. to let our guys if we're sending our. guys in to do that and they've and. they're flying back, they're not going. to get shot down by F-16s." Um, so we're. going to have our F-15s or let whatever.

you guys decide in the military, whatever is best platform to shoot down. their their airplanes. So, um, fast forwarding back to the. night of the raid and, you know, we were. getting. >> How long How much time would you before. the raid happened. >> that we found out? >> I would say. >> from brief to. >> That's a great question. Maybe. I might be off, but it feels like under. a month, maybe three months. Yeah, cuz. we we trained for maybe 2 and a half 3.

weeks and then we blew out to. Afghanistan and we were there if I. recall um maybe like 7 8 days before we. finally launched. Um I mean I might be. off a day or two, but it that's what it. feels like. That's what I recall that it. was under a month um that we got the. information where we thought we were. going to do something in Libya and then. all of a sudden here we are flying to. Afghanistan going after the most wanted. man in the world. And as we were uh. sitting there, I remember thinking to. myself, you know, my role was, as I.

mentioned, to take the team, my team. right up the middle of the compound. And. then also, I was in charge of all the. intelligence gathering. That was like my. secondary role. And um going into it, I. knew, we knew as the higher up you got. in al-Qaeda, it wasn't always the case, but the higher up you got, the more. fanatical things got. So you would run. into more suicide vests or sve vests, more houseborn IEDs, and just people. willing to die for the cause, right? This and this was the baddest dude. So.

we're likely going to be running into. that. And so. knowing that that like our role of going. right up the middle like that was going. to be at least in my mind that was going. to be a time that was going to be a real. deciding factor if somebody's going to. run out with a suicide vest or a. houseorn IED and just blow us up right. there. And as um and for me as the. assault team leader um which usually you. wouldn't do this but I thought I will be. the first one in the door because I. would like and that's just not me Alex.

West but a lot of those guys would have. done the same thing that if anybody is. going to run into a asfest it's going to. be the guy leading it and because I know. the guys behind me would are just as. qualifi they could have easily picked up. where I left off but I just thought if. I'm going to I'm not going to tell. somebody to do that unless I'm going to. do it. So, as we um I remember we finally get. the the go like it's going to be a go. You guys are starting up and I remember.

>> what were you guys doing when you got. that? >> We were I if I recall we had just had. some food maybe it was the equivalent of. I would say. maybe 8:00 p.m. local time. Um so we had. just had dinner. We were kind of hanging. out. knew that it was in this window of. time because of the aloom cycle or the. moon cycle that it was likely going to. be in this window of time and if we. missed it and didn't launch that we were. either going to have to wait for the. next aloom cycle and so we'd have to. stay in Afghanistan for another 30 days.

or or likely around that or it was you. were just going to get sent home and and. this whole thing would fizzle out. So it. was kind of like on the edge of it could. have been any one of those three things. that could have happened equally I. believed at least. But the intelligence. people kept saying no he is there 100%. And then I had that same old thing of. like yeah I I don't know if anything's. 100% but I mean I appreciate your your. uh intensity and your confidence. I just. don't believe it. But finally they came.

and they said it's a go. Get your kit. on. And so we started kitting up and um. I remember we got on the helicopters and. I remember still thinking there's no way. like this is just another spin. And then. they started cranking the engines. and I just thought okay like that's. interesting but I'm still not convinced. And then all of a sudden we started. taxing and I started hearing some radio. calls and then all of a sudden we. started to take off and I just remember.

thinking well I'll be damned like we are. doing this thing and then um what would. it was an hour and a half flight and I. remember which was a lot of time to sit. in your head and think about what's. about to happen because what was going. to happen within an hour and a half a. few things was going to happen. You are. either going to get the man and get out. of there. You are going to get stuck. there and Alamo up and die. You and all. of your friends. You're going to get. stuck there and become a political.

prisoner. And those were like the three. outcomes that could have happened from. that. And so as we're flying in, I just. remember thinking like, okay, and then. feeling the pressure of it just to be. human about it. Like you know, I have a. human nervous system. We had human ner. So it's like even though yeah we were. the team we had the resume all of I had. the confidence to do it I still was. having these human emotions of just like. the weight of it because if one let's. say it was like the Super Bowl I can. imagine if if I'm NFL player it's like. wow the Super Bowl's coming like a lot.

of people are watching this is the. pinnacle of my career it it's at the end. of the day you throw a bunch of. interceptions and lose the game you're. okay it's not that big of a deal on this. one it was if we mess up not only are we. dead but we're also So making our our. unit, our military, our country, New. Yorkers, all of these people, we're. going to let them down. So it's the. gravity of payback that was on. our shoulders that we were fortunate. enough to get picked for to be able to.

deliver that for the American people and. New Yorkers. And so that weight on us, it was just overwhelming as we were. flying in. And I remember just thinking. about that and as I close my eyes I'm. visualizing New Yorkers jumping out of. the Twin Towers and just thinking like. we have to have payback and then also. thinking like oh my gosh the weight of. this is crazy. And then the closer we. started, you know, then another 20. minutes would pass. Another 20 minutes. And I remember just feeling overwhelmed. and getting into like just taking deep. breaths almost of just like I need to.

calm down. There's a lot going on here. And then just I remember looking out the. window of the helicopter and seeing a. bunch of the topography reminded me of. like East County San Diego and just. thinking, "Okay, that looks familiar.". And then just starting to do some mental. reps in my head of like, "Okay, the. reality is this is not that hard of a. target. It I mean, you've done way. harder. Your unit has done way harder. All the guys around you are the best. that you've ever served with. So you you. guys will you will if as long as you get. your feet on the ground, you will at. least pull this off. at least on the.

ground, not getting out, but you'll pull. it off. And I just kept doing more deep. breaths and visualizing and finally. started to like calm myself down because. that was an hour and a half of just. thinking about what if, what if. And then as the closer we get, I. remember uh we were 3 minutes out. We. opened up the the Hilo doors and uh we. unlocked our undone our D-rings. So, for. the listeners, lots of guys would carry. a a runner on their belt that could clip. into a D-ring of the helicopter so that.

if the helicopter pulled off to the. side, you would not get flung out of the. helicopter. But we had all unplipped. those because we were getting close cuz. we were about to fast rope. You don't. want to fast rope with that in cuz you. won't go anywhere. So, we all unclipped. I'm holding on to the back kit of one of. my operator friends who's who's going to. be the guy who throws the fast rope. And. I'm holding on to him. I'm looking. around at all the guys, hearing some. communications calls. And then I'm. hearing one minute out and I start to.

see the town and I can feel just it was. like a cool like like spring breeze type. thing. I had a long sleeve cami top on. and that's it. I could feel a little. little cold, nothing crazy. And I'm. holding on to them and I'm just. completely dialed in like as dialed in. as as I've ever been. And then I just. remember we fly finally like 30 seconds. out and then all of a sudden we fly. right in front and I can see the. compound what we have done rehearsed so. many times. this. So, I'm holding one of.

the operators, the another sniper's got. his gun pointed towards the main. building. And as we start to hold. station right there, what had happened. was the when we're doing the chain link. fence, the rotor wash from the. helicopters would go through through the. chain link fence. And also this night, the temperature was a little bit hotter. than expected, which is would be one. little micro factor here. But when we. got in there and they had these 20 foot. high walls, that rotor wash would hit.

the walls and come back up almost like. in a vacuum towards the helicopter. So. it had nowhere to go. All that hot rotor. wash would come up and it destabilized. the helicopter and spun us in a very. violent 45°ree dive while we were right. there. So in one moment I see the. building, I'm holding on to my buddy's. kit and the next minute the whole world. goes 45° and spins. Yeah. Right in the most like second one. of the operation, right? Where like just.

a 10 seconds earlier it was like, "Okay, don't this up. Do this and that. Okay, got it. Got it. Okay, I'm feeling. confident, too. Okay, the whole world is. spinning and we're diving into the into. the earth." Thankfully, the pilot being. world class was able to bury the nose of. the helicopter into the ground while the. rest of the helicopter uh the tail was. on a on the 25 ft wall. So it was almost. like a 45 degree angle of the helicopter. with its nose buried in the ground. We. impacted.

unbeknownst to me at the time um it. herniated discs in my back along with a. bunch of the other guys on the. helicopter. A very common injury we all. had was guys had herniated discs but you. weren't feeling it because you were your. adrenaline was through the roof. I. remember though holding on to my buddy's. kit though. So, we impact and we're. starting to uh teeter back and forth. And I remember from, you know, being in. a previous helicopter crash, but also. training like, hey, let the rotors. settle before you jump out. Um, so I'm.

I'm thinking to myself, just let the. rotors settle. And I'm holding on to. him. I look over to look at the rest of. the helicopter, imagining that a lot of. our guys got flung out of the. helicopter, but I wanted to get some. situational awareness of where everybody. was at. And the moment I turned my head, the guy that I was holding on to, I let. up just ever so slightly and he just. bolted out the door. And he was a big. guy. Um, and I remember looking at him. and thinking he's dead cuz I feel us. You could see the the the rotors kind of. doing this thing like his head's going.

to get lpped off. And he just kept. running right through it. And I was just. like, well, I'll be damn I can't leave. him. So then I jump right after him and. and some of the other guys. And so I. follow him just trying to keep my head. as low as possible. And then we just get. out of the rotor wash. And as we're. running for this next gate, one thing I. reflected on later was I never stopped. to turn around to look at the helicopter. ever again because my mentality was if. there is guys killed or wounded, that.

does not matter right now. Which is. something I would have never done on a. previous operation. It was America needs. us. If it's just the two of us to start. this operation and to kick this thing. off, then the two of us are going to be. what America needs right now. Like, I. cannot even spend one second looking at. what's going on back there. And so, we. just kept running. Uh, that guy came up, blew one of the gates, and then we ran. up. Um, I came up and I cleared there's. like this little almost chicken shed. type thing. Cleared that real quick. And.

as I ran up to the front, basically it. was the back door, the main entrance, I. ran up to it and the rest of my team was. behind me. And as I mentioned before, I. knew I wanted to be the first guy in. And um I saw one of the couriers poke. his head down the wall at me and I shot. him through the left eye. And when I saw. him though fall into his room and I just. thought like he's gonna clack himself. off. So, I went against a lot of our. SOPs because there's a bunch of open.

doors and I just thought he's going to. blow himself up. I'm gonna chase after. him. And I just ran sprinted down the. hallway to go run after him across these. open doors. Um, which is kind of. dangerous in a way because you don't. want to split yourself and the other. guys if there's a bad guy in those. But. I thought the the risk was this guy. blowing himself up, which not only would. it, let's say, kill or wound my team, but it would completely throw the. mission off. We would never get out in. 38 minutes. So, I took the chance to.

sprint down the hallway after him. As I. went into the into his room, he was. crouched over around his waist and I'm. worried about this suicide vest. And I. go to take a shot and his wife jumps on. him like a human shield. And I remember. I take one shot, hit him, and I go to. take a second and her arm goes right in. front of my barrel and I shoot through. her forearm into her husband's body, but. unbeknownst to me at the time, somehow. the round must have ricocheted in there. And while she was being a human shield.

on him, she took a round and um and both. were killed and she was pregnant and had. the baby right there. >> Holy She had the baby, gave birth. >> right there. It all happened right. there. like he was I in one moment I. unfortunately. you know I killed him while doing that. she was killed as a human shield and. then she must have been in her third. trimester she was very pregnant and then. when she died I believe just like. released the baby and that all happened.

right there. So, I had that helicopter. crash, ran up, and those like next like. 20 seconds were just extreme. And then I. remember when that happened, and I look. over and there's a small little. 8-year-old girl just standing there. staring at me holding a stuffed animal. with pigtails. And I remember just seeing that. And I'm. I know we had just crashed a helicopter. that I'm I'm walking dead cuz. unbeknownst to me, I didn't not know.

that our QRF or for the listeners, quick. reactionary force, our backup guys from. our squadron or our command were in a a. 47 a helicopter that was screaming for. us as fast as it could go. But that. wasn't we didn't know that at the time. We thought I thought, "Okay, we're we're. walking dead. We just crashed. We're not. going to get out of here." I did not. know backup was coming like that because. of the F-16s and all of that. But back. to that little girl, I knew I was. walking dead, but in all the chaos and.

I'm even hearing another team that's. getting in a gunfight in the background. I know that they're in contact also at. the with one of the other couriers. I. hear that. And I had the wherewithal in. the moment to just take a knee and just. put my hand on her shoulder and just. tell her how sorry I was and and then. just snapped back into it and just. thought, "Okay, I've got a job to do.". And then went back out and helped clear. the rest of the bottom floor. But while. doing that, I remember seeing this steel.

door that was going leading up the. stairs. And at that moment, I knew he. was there. I knew I'm like there's no. way somebody puts a door like that going. up to the, you know, up their stairs. And so at that point, the same breacher, you know, was he's starting to put this. a charge on there and we're putting on. and I remember saying like, "Put on the. big a type of charge, which I won't. disclose, but our biggest charge." I was. like, "Put on the biggest one. we need. to blow the out of this place.

because we're we are walking dead and. we're not we're going to finish this and. get this guy no matter what it takes. because the American people in New. Yorkers depend on us. So, we threw on. this massive charge on the door. And as. that's happening, what the other. helicopter was supposed to land, uh, as. I mentioned prior, land on the top of. the roof, but because of contingencies, because we crashed, they did the right. thing to buy down risk and landed in a. field, uh, basically a a lot, a housing. lot right next door. They landed, it's a.

a plot of land. They landed and those. guys started getting out, started. running towards um, where we were at. So, they were finally starting to get. there. But as the team leader, I'm. coordinating with them. Hey, don't come. in yet. We're about to blow this big. charge. You're going to run right into. it. So, I'm coordinating them to make. sure that they don't come running into. it. I'm making sure all the other team. got or assaulters are out of the way. And there was one moment where I I. tucked back into uh into the room where. I'd killed that family and that little. girl was to where.

there was I was about to give the call. of like, "Okay, send it on the charge.". And I had a beat of a moment where I was. like, "We're dead. There's no way we're. getting the out of here." Um, send. it. Boom. And then, um, at that point, the rest of the guys came in. They. filled in behind, um, this pointman. started going up. They encountered um, Khaled, which was the son, with an. AK-47, which is a horrible situation to. be in, where you're going upstairs while. a guy has an AK-47.

Um, but he was engaged and killed. And. then um we started making our way up and. then one of the guys saw the man engaged. Bin Laden. And then um and then the rest. of that those guys went up to that room. to finish him off. I was on the second. floor, cleared the rest of that and then. immediately I was in as I mentioned in. charge of all the intelligence. gathering. So, I went right into the. mode of like seeing what we had and just. thinking.

this is a a goal mind. Like, we have to. get as much out of out of this as. possible. Um, I hear more shots upstairs. um killing Bin Laden. I wouldn't know at. the time, but they whatever those guys. finished him off and then at that point. it's just grabbing as much stuff as we. can. I'm also thinking to myself like. we're still like, okay, well, is this. Okay, we're going to grab this stuff and. try to get out of here. What's going on? I get an update that our QRF is coming.

to pick us up. So, we there's a chance. we might get out of here. Um, I hear the. Geronimo call, which was essentially the. call sign saying that we had gotten Bin. Laden. And I thought to myself, like, wow, we actually pulled it off. Like, thank God we did. I still am not sure. we're going to get out of here, but at. least we did this. And um and then at. that point they start my master chief. comes over and says like all right the. group I was in um which is the chalk or. for the listeners the that's just a a. term for the helicopter basically the.

group of guys that I was in like hey you. guys are going to be out on this next. helicopter. and then they started prepping the other. helicopter they were going to blow it. very I mean we didn't have much time we. were doing the best we could to to blow. that helicopter so that the Pakistanis. wouldn't get it. Um it was all over the. news of course so whatever but we did. the best we could on the time. constraints we had um and then at that. point the uh we. the helicopter comes in we grab the body.

uh bin Laden's body and I remember was. one of the guys grabbing him and he we. were running so fast to try to get out. of there that I remember my heart rate. must have been like 180 beats a minute. like just dragging his body. I'm covered. in like laptops and a bunch of. intelligence and all of my gear and. we're just running out to this. essentially this lot that our uh. helicopter came in. We threw the body. in. We jumped on top of I jumped on top. of them amongst the other guys. We flew. off. They blew the um the helicopter and.

then the QRF helicopter came in and uh. pulled out the rest of the guys. As we start flying back, I just remember. I just kept getting Bin Laden's elbow in. my ribs the whole time. And I remember. thinking like, this is the scariest man. on earth. He's just an old man, brittle, no muscle on him, and his elbows in my. side, and it won't like I couldn't get. comfortable. And um and we we keep. flying. However, I know we're way behind.

38 minutes. I'm not sure what we're. going to do. It was kind of beyond the. what I was more worried of the inside of. the building. Our leadership was working. on, you know, big picture stuff of. logistics of getting us out. And as. we're flying out, we had something. called a forward area refuel point or. FARP. All that means for the listeners. is that we had gone into Pakistan in a. field and put a fuel bladder in there. and made a makeshift gas station cuz we. did not have enough fuel to get out of. Pakistan. But as we're flying to that.

that FARP, we're flying in and I. remember there's lights started flashing. in the cockpit and then the crew came. back and said, "Hey, make sure you're. clipped in those D-rings again cuz we. might go back in. We might crash this.". And I remember thinking, "Whoa, third. things come in threes." You know, this. would be my third helicopter crash, second in that day. And um and so I just. remember thinking like, "Wow, okay." And. we finally made it though on fumes. Uh. landed, got out. I was told to go on the.

47 just for weight reasons. Myself and. another guy. We got back into the. helicopters and then started flying for. Pakistan. Unbeknownst to us, the. Pakistanis had started to scramble their. F-16s. And we had our F-15s that were. just standing by right on the border to. shoot them down. And so as we're flying. back, I remember when we finally crossed. over into Afghanistan, the pilot came on. the radio and said, "I thought you guys. would never think you'd hear this, but.

we're back in Afghanistan. You never. thought be that happy to hear this." And. we were just like, "Fuck yeah, we're. back in Afghanistan." And you know, we're all kind of like fist pumping and. like hitting each other up on the on the. bird on the 47 I was on as we finally. flew in. like we actually pulled it off. We still had to get there, but it was. like, "Wow, we're finally back in. Afghanistan. We land and, you know, get all of our. stuff out uh in uh in the at Jalalabad, Afghanistan, and pull it all out." And.

then, unbeknownst to me, one of our guys. got out and he had been shot in his bolt. cutters and and fragged his traps, million-dollar wound, thank God. But. everybody else, a little banged up from. the helicopter crash, but we were all in. one piece. And um from there we flew to. Bram which was the main air force base. there. And I remember as we walked in. there was just like the whole world's. intelligence community was that waiting. for us. And I remember just being cuz I. was in charge of it and um and asking. them to basically back the off.

because we still had like you know guys. still had their gear on and everybody. wanted a piece of it which they were. fine with. But I just remember thinking. like we we aren't even organized right. now. We were all in like somebody's like. soccer, you know, bag, you know, we've. got a bunch of hard drives in there that. we pulled off Target or a pillowcase or. we just weren't organized and we didn't. have time. So, finally we we laid. everything out and we started the. turnover of all of the intelligence at. the time. They laid the body out and. there's this has been said before, but.

one of the guys was the same height as. Bin Laden, so they made him lay down. just to make sure, okay, he's the right. height because we didn't have a tape. measure. uh one of the um yeah, so that. was going on. They were taking samples. from him. He had been shot in the face, so it was hard to really get a match, but they did take a bunch of his DNA and. it came back as a a positive on him. Uh, we went in and we did our debrief and. then we um I remember after the debrief. was over and everything was turned over.

I was in my camies, my camouflage. uniform, still still sweaty and I. remember somebody saying the president. is going to make an announcement and we. were just standing there in this hanger. on this TV and just watching President. Obama come down and just tell the. American people that, you know, we had. taken out Bin Laden. And it was at that. moment it really hit me because before. that I was just in operator mode. But. then I finally seen the president say. that and the word those words coming out. of his mouth and as someone who was you.

know on the invasion of Afghanistan to. then be on that mission and just like. that my whole life like a lot of us. veterans you know had fought this thing. from that generation. And so it was like. I cannot believe we pulled that off. And. I remember. going back and you know finally taking a. shower and I'm walking back from a. shower trailer and then just thinking to. myself like still like I cannot believe. we pulled this off. I don't know is that. I can't believe I was fortunate enough. to be on that mission and we and we were.

alive. And then we hopped on a plane and we. flew straight to Virginia Beach in a C17. with in air refueling. It was about 17. hours straight and then as we landed and. opened the door and our command was. there just cheering us on. Um but that's. pretty much like the what the mission. >> Yeah. I feel so fortunate to have been a part. of it. Um to be a small part of that. And one thing I want to say is it wasn't. just you know the 23 guys and.

interpreter. It was the years of the. intelligence community working their ass. off for years. It was the helicopter. crews. It was the mechanics. It was all. the people that contributed to. everything. It was not just those 23. guys and an interpreter. It was the. nation. And it that I am so proud that. we were able to have payback for the. American people and New Yorkers. Man,

I bet that was a hell of a feeling. Yeah. I even now when I I sometimes. forget about it every now and then and. then it'll cross my mind. Um and I just. it's so nice to be able to be like wow I. was just a small part of this incredible. experience you know to and it wasn't. just it was the ability to you know as I. said as we were flying in imagining New. Yorkers jumping out of the Twin Towers.

you know and then and being fortunate. enough to do something about it. Um, yeah, it was an incredible experience. and feeling. >> Did you meet the president? >> I did. We did. Um, let's see here. I. can't remember the amount of time, but. uh shortly after we flew to Fort. Campbell where the president and vice. president Biden at the time were. addressing the 101st Airborne and they. had us in a a separate kind of private.

uh room that he came in and and you know. he we were able to meet him um and the. vice president and um that was a super. cool experience too. >> What did they say? One thing I remember. about Obama is such a and I've heard. this from other people, but maybe it. took me meeting him. Um, such an. intelligent, wellspoken guy, a lot of. charisma and swagger, and he just. thanked us and um and told us he was. proud of us and that America was proud.

of us and um and it felt very genuine. By the way, it wasn't like a in my. opinion, it wasn't some sort of. political stunt or whatever. you could. tell he was really proud. And to be. honest, I'm surprised and um that he. actually had the guts to do it because. that was such a gutsy call because we. did not really know it was 100%. And. then the to line up the F-15s and all of. that like that would have all ridden on.

him if we wouldn't have gotten out of. there and Alamoed up and were all. killed. They're political prisoners. That would have politically been. horrible. So, um, to just go for it, I I. give him respect for that. Damn. Yeah. What did you say to the little girl? >> I told her in that moment that I was so. sorry. And I have and I've struggled. with that with her um, ever since the.

fact that that happened. Um, I've seen. her in my own healing and like plant. medicine and and she's visited me and. and I've even told her in those. experience I don't know if she's still. alive or not but her spirit I can feel. it and it's more of a. you know your father was a soldier and I. was a soldier and we met essentially on. the battlefield and I'm sorry that your. family got caught in between it. Um, and. there's no way that her and I would have.

ever met any other circumstances. were. from two different worlds. Um, but in a. way it was almost like she was a a. victim, a child who was a victim of war. almost as I was from my father in. Vietnam. And I think that should be a cautionary. tale um for future wars. Not that Bin. Laden didn't deserve it, but it's just. for there's that story that I have. There's stories like that from a lot of. veterans that have to experience that.

and carry that. And what's tough about. that is I'm so proud of that mission, but it came at a human cost and a human. toll that here I am years later still. struggling with having that happen in. front of that little girl who didn't. deserve that. However, um. yeah, I I don't know how to heal or I. mean, I'm trying to heal from it, but. it's just one of those things where just. because it was a massive payback it that.

I still feel it. I still feel the the. weight of that room in particular. Yeah, man. Yeah. What was the day after like? We I remember one of my buddies picked. me up from uh the ocean at the airport,

the military airport, and took me out to. um get some dinner, like a steak dinner, I think, and a and a drink. Um, and I. remember that was enough for me. Like I. wasn't about to like go party or. anything. I was just so tired and. basically I slept a lot and my back was. really hurting me um from the crash and. going into medical and um I think the. next few days were more of like getting. evaluated for injuries and and a lot of. afteraction. So there's a lot of you I.

was getting flown up to DC quite a bit. um to do afteraction stuff, but it was a. lot of that. And then when that dust. settled after a couple weeks, um, at a. unit like that, it's like, okay, um, get. over it. We're getting back in there. You've got house house runs. You got. trips. You got to start planning for X, Y, and Z. Um, the war's not over. >> What was it like showing back at the. showing back up at the squadron? >> It was great. You know, I mean, we were. so proud. The squadron was proud. Um, you know, other squadrons were, you.

know, professionally kind of like, man, if we would have done it, we would have. never crashed the helicopter. You know, some some talking here and there, which, you know, touche, that's not. that's pretty funny, but. I just think um yeah, guys were so proud. and um and so was I. you know, it was. just it was nice to be able to have. that, but it was in that world um. short-lived because as we, you know, got. back into the swing of things um I'm.

going to jump around a little bit here, but uh Gold Squadron deployed a little. bit later that summer and um two troop, which was Gold Squadron 2 troop, which I. was in that previous deployment because. I was a a selection instructor and my. best friend Rob Reeves, we would always. talk about, man, we can never get on a. mission together. We've been serving. together for so long. We were roommates. for a long time, and you know, we just. like, is there a way we can get on a. mission together? And so when uh in.

between selection schedules, there's a. gap of time. I went over with Gold. Squadron 2 troop so that I could just, you know, get stay current as an. instructor, but also to be able to do. missions with Rob. And um I ended up. getting hurt up in the mountains on that. deployment coming back early and was an. instructor. But. then um after the Bin Laden raid when. they deployed again, they were uh. providing a quick reactionary force or. backup for uh an element that needed.

help. And as they flew in, their call. sign was extortion 17. And their whole. troop of guys was flying in and were. shot down and killed. And so. for which devastated the NSW community. of course as you know and also um dev. group community because uh you know. you're talking in one moment you know. you're friends with all these guys and. the next moment a whole troop of guys is. killed. So you have 12 to 20 phone.

numbers in your phone that every single. one of them is dead. And so you go from. the highs of the bin Laden raid May 2nd. to August. where extortion was shot down, you know, so just a few months later and just the. high the highest of highs and the lowest. of lows. And when that happened, I remember the. command just went into full-on mode of. just like, let's get these casualty. officers out. Like it was mayhem. They.

did a great job. Hats off to the. command. But that amount of death toll. was the highest u amount of loss of the. Afghan or the global war on terror and. in the highest amount of casualties in. the SEAL history. So when that happened. um we started going to a bunch of. funerals and I went to Rob's and then I. was getting ready to go to one of my. really other close friends Heath. Robinson. He had me in his will as a. pall bearer and I was getting ready to.

do that and it was you to my team like. Alex you need to take your team and go. back overseas to help uh back fill the. guys and so I couldn't even do that and. a lot it wasn't just me a lot of guys. were in that same boat and so we blew. out to go back overseas um to backfill. to troop yeah as we we couldn't even um. bury them you know or be pbearers or. give eulogies um because um we needed. needed to be back out there to to keep. the fight going. And that experience on.

that era in command just devastated. everybody. And that spun me out uh with. my own mental health, which was already. on on edge for how many combat. deployments I had done in my own. childhood stuff to now you have a ton of. your best friends were just killed in an. instant and you can't even mourn them. because you have to go back overseas. And then that's when I started really. spiraling at that point. Man, I'm sorry, dude.

I I appreciate it, man. Yeah, I. Yeah, it's just um and you can't replace. two troop. You those guys were so. experienced and talented and obviously. just as people incredible. You can. replace them in the military, right? you can have you can fill those. spots, but you just you can't replace. that, especially um at that type of a. unit. You just can't replace that many. guys like that. Um. yeah, and but life went on.

unfortunately. I mean, it didn't really. go on with the morning, but it was like, okay, back overseas and kept deploying. And then on my last deployment, um I was deployed as we were an assault. uh strike force team. Basically, I was. an assault team leader and we were just. hitting targets in eastern Afghanistan. and the wheels were really coming off. for me. It was almost like I just. couldn't take it anymore. And also the. fact that that happened where they were. all killed and that and I didn't know.

what we were doing in the Afghan war at. that point. Like what were we doing? We. had already killed Bin Laden. We' driven. the majority of al-Qaeda out of. Afghanistan and now we're fighting the. Taliban. And so it's like what are we. doing? and they're asking, you know, us. or me to lead my assault team in these. on these raids, which I was happy to do. I wasn't backing down, but I was also. having all of their wives telling me. they bring back my husband. And and it. was for something that I did not believe. in. However, being in that leadership.

position, you had to keep going. And it was during that time that my, as. I mentioned, my mental health was. starting to spiral. I was like being. really outspoken when I normally. wouldn't have. I would have kept my. mouth shut uh you know to leaders um. guys I was friends with and where. they're like dude are you all right like. calm down it was just coming out that. way and then. and I started getting suicidal ideiation. going on and I remember where it. culminated I was sitting in my room in.

Jalalabad Afghanistan and I remember. have just sitting there with my 416 my. assault rifle on my lap and I'm looking. at it and I'm just thinking I just want. to end it and I'm taking it and I'm like. pulling the gun putting it like do I go. to the forehead? Do I go to the mouth? Like how do I finish it? I just have to. finish it. I'm in so much pain. And then. I'm thinking of the irony of this. particular rifle that I had killed. dozens of combatants with that this was. also going to be the rifle that was.

going to take my own life. And I'm in. this dark dark place and I'm just. talking myself up. Do it. No, don't do. it. Do it. Don't do it. Repping it. Repping it. Do it. Don't do it. Rep it. Do it. Maybe I shouldn't use my rifle. Maybe my pistol. What if I don't want my. buddies to have to clean up all my. stuff? Maybe I should shoot myself in. the chest. All of these things were. going on in my head. Rep. Rep. And then. as that's happening, it's getting. closer. I could feel it like I'm almost. there. I'm going to do it. And then all. of a sudden, boom,

boom. And the sirens start going and the. Taliban is attacking our base. And in. that moment, I snapped out of it and was. like, I have to man a position on the. wall as a team leader and grabbed my kit. and ran to the wall where I had to meet. our JTAC to basically start if we needed. to call in air strikes to fight off the. Taliban. So then I manned the wall and I. remember thinking to myself the irony of. in that moment of all moments, right, that I could have been doing that that. we got attacked by the Taliban, essentially the Taliban saved my life by.

attacking the base. >> Holy. >> Yeah. Yeah, I would continue to, you know, be. struggling and, uh, thankfully that was. my last tour. I, um, came back from that. and I was earmarked to continue on to, uh, work up the pipeline to get into. higher forms of leadership within the. command. And, um, I went to a traumatic. brain injury clinic called the National. Intrepid Center of Excellence or Niko,

which is in Bethesda. And that's when I. got in there and they started doing a. bunch of brain scans and saw, you know, scar tissue in my brain from traumatic. brain injury and was diagnosed with, you. know, major depressive disorder, PTSD, suicidal ideation, all these things. And. then I just started thinking like I am I. don't know if I'm going to make it. I. literally did not know if I if I would. make it. And then I kept going back to. what I did in Buds or Green Team or.

Selection. It was like just make it to. the next meal. just that old that old. saying like I don't know if I can do. that and it's like okay I can't do that. I can't make it to lunch I don't know if. I can do this life dude this is life. like I don't know if I can do it it's. like okay make it five more minutes just. five more minutes and then be like okay. cool 10 more minutes that's how bad I. was struggling and um I made the. decision at that point like I I can't. continue to serve I can't keep deploying. I'd done 15 combat deployments in a row. and I was like I have to get out of here.

um and so I um took took orders. I. requested and went out to the west coast. to San Diego for my last few years to. just work in school houses or training. commands. I remember I was offered the. ability to medically retire. and um. I thought about it but I was at when. that happened I was maybe at 17 18 years. and I and there's nothing wrong with it. but to me I was like you know what I I'm. just I'm doing a little bit better not a.

lot better but I'm you know now I'm in. therapy and at the time I was on. medication and I was like surfing more. all these things I'm like okay I I can I. just make it another six months like I. kind of want to finish what I started to. hit the 20-y year mark. I'm right there. Am I going to regret that? And um during. that time is when I um my psychiatrist. had said, "Hey, I know you're a surfer. There's this surf clinic at the Naval. Hospital. Um and what they do is they.

take all of these injured or wounded. veterans active duty and they take them. out surfing in Delmare and San Diego. I. think it'd be important for you, Alex, to just go and volunteer. help get these. guys in, maybe give them a surf, whatever it is, like and I'm glad he. did. He was like, "Dude, you need to do. something." And so, um, and so I started. volunteering at the the surf clinic, and. it was just that, like helping veterans. get in and out of the water, basic surf. lessons, and they were just using. surfing as a form of therapy. And as I.

was there is when I started to recognize. that there was nothing modified in these. boards um for amputees. In my mind, I. was always a very. I I had this knack for innovation and. creativity when I was at the development. group. I was always into like helping. develop gear and things like that or. tactics. My I was just always into. innovating just naturally. Not any more. less than anybody, but just like I was. driven by it. And so I remember looking. at some of these boards and thinking. like I wonder if you could put a handle. on there for a guy missing an arm or.

maybe you could reinforce this part of. the of the surfboard so that when a. prosthetic goes into it, it doesn't. break the board. And then I started. noticing it like maybe I should do. something about is there an organization. that does that? Maybe I'll volunteer for. them. And there wasn't. And then I. remember seeing a lot of these veterans. would have missing legs. They would take. their wets suit and do an overhand knot. in the leg and then cut it. And I. remember thinking that doesn't look like. that's up. Like that guy lost his. leg. Like we can do better than an.

overhand knot. And then I remember thinking, I want to. start a nonprofit that can modify these. surfboards for these guys and gals. And. and not just that, but wet suits, all of. this stuff. And um and then finally. that's when I had that moment I shared. earlier where I was with that young. Marine who um was happy to be surfing. you know on a beautiful day and how he. had mentioned you know when I'm surfing. there's no more pain and nobody's. staring at me is the guy missing a leg. And it was that moment where I was like. I'm going to start a nonprofit. I don't. know how I don't know anybody. The only.

people I know are in the n are in the. military. So, I drove home and I stopped. at the time there's a Borders bookshop. and I walked in and I looked at this. nonprofit section and I'm staring at it. I'm all excited like I'm going to start. a nonprofit and I'm looking at these. books and I start pulling them out and. it's like the who's who and the most. incredible nonprofits in the world, you. know? I'm looking at them. I'm like, okay, that's I'm just looking to do. something small. Like that feels a. little overwhelming. I don't know. anything. Like, you know, people who. have like MBAs or whatever, they've.

dedicated their whole life. I'm just. like, "Okay." And then I'm I'm starting. to get discouraged. And then I catch a. book at the corner of my eye, the bottom. of the shelf. It's this little yellow. book. And I pull it out and it's How to. Start a Nonprofit for Dummies. And I just thought, well, damn. I'm not. going to go home empty-handed. I'm at. least going to take this nonprofit for. Dummies book. So then I took it home and. that night um with a cup of coffee. started One More Wave, which is a a.

nonprofit that I founded in 2015 that. makes custom-shaped surfboards for. wounded or injured veterans. And we also. have community. Um and so what started. what I thought would just be a board or. two for the Naval Hospital slowly. started to get more traction because I. was still active duty and had my own. stuff going on. But by doing that, it. was actually therapy for me also because. I was now helping I was introducing this. therapeutic modality to other active. duty or veterans who are struggling and. it was the same modality that helps me.

or helped me. And so another, you know, we did our first board and then our. second and it started to gain some. traction and then Starbucks did a. documentary on us and it really took. off. And then now we've done more. adaptive surfboards than any. organization in the world. And we've um. we have members uh four members on team. USA, two world champions that ride one. more wave boards. Yeah. And we have um. eight chapters around the country from. Hawaii to California, Florida, North.

Carolina, New York. We have um all these. chapters that every third Saturday surf. together. Well, the time zones are a. little bit different, right? From Hawaii. to, let's say, the East Coast. But every. third Saturday every month, you'll get. three to 400 people surfing on that. third Saturday at One Wave. And we also. have apps that help uh facilitate four. to six surfs per day. And um and we've. given out 800 uh grants at $2,500 a. piece. So, what started with nonprofit.

for dummies. and is now, you know, something that is. like morphed into something that I would. have never thought would happen. A lot. of times people think like, "You're the. founder. Did you envision this this like. crazy vision?" And I'm the first person. to be like, "No, no way. I did not. envision this. I thought it would be a. couple boards that that's like. sustainable." Like maybe one event here. and there, okay, and then a couple. boards that feels good. But it was. almost like that organization was like, "Bro, like that's not what's going to. happen." Like either catch up or get out.

cuz this thing is launching. And so, um, so yeah, so that's I'm, uh, there is a. guy that runs it right now. His name is. Rob Garnett. He's a retired SEAL, close. friend of mine, and one of, um, is. perfect for this right now. Now, I'm the. chairman of the board, so I'm not as in. on the daily uh, activities, but Rob is. grinding it day in day out, and it would. not be the same organization without him. along with the rest of the team. So, while yeah, maybe I'm the one that. founded it, it took a village and guys.

like Rob are the ones that are making it. happen on a daily basis. >> Wow, dude. Damn. Yeah. And and what um. we do too, what's a little bit different. that I'm proud of a lot in the beginning. lots of times, you know, people were. like, you know, make it for just seals. That'll be easier mentors. And I just. thought, I don't know about that. It doesn't feel. right. I mean, not that there's anything. wrong with just SEAL stuff, but I felt. like seals get a lot when we do. Um, and. then, you know, people like, well, then. just do soft. That's easy. It's easy to.

raise money for soft. And then I thought. back to the parking lot in Tampa with my. dad and Magnet S. And those guys were. not soft. They were just veterans. And I. just at that moment I thought, no, this. is for veterans. I don't care if you. were Seal Team 6, Delta Force. I don't. care. I don't care if if you turned a. wrench and you never left, you know, Air. Force base in North Dakota. I don't care.

if you signed up to serve our country, you are eligible for a one more wave. grant as long as you meet some certain. criteria. And we even started getting. into it. I didn't realize it that there. was a lot of veterans from the GWAT who. were getting traumatic brain injuries. from IEDs. And what was happening is. while they were active duty before we. started wrapping our um you know. understanding TBIs, a lot of these. veterans in the early stages of the GWAT. were now having angry outbursts because. of their TBI. And so maybe they were.

getting in fights or they were, you. know, self-noming with alcohol and. getting a DUI. Um and now they're. getting kicked out, but now they're. getting kicked out of ad administration. se, you know, separated and now they're. not getting VA benefits. So guys who. were TBIs were now not getting to the. VA. And a lot of nonprofits were like, "We're not going to touch guys with a. 10-ft pull unless you have a honorable. discharge." And I started hearing some. of these stories and talking to some of. these guys and they were like head down. shaking like I don't deserve this or. that. And it was that moment I was just.

like, I don't give I don't care. What is it? Tell me more about your. story. And then they would talk about it. and be like, nobody's helping you. And. it's like, no. And it's like, and you. got blown up in an IED in Rammani and. nobody's helping you. And they're like, well, no. And they kind of got to this. thing of like, well, I don't know if I. deserve it. I got other than honorable. I'm like, yeah, but the symptoms of TBI. or like angry outburst and, you know, self-numbing and all of this. And it was. that moment I our board said, we are. going to accept other than honorable and. even dishonorable as long as we go.

through what happened. and just and as. long as you're honest with us and it. doesn't have to be, you know, basically. likely you will get a grant from us. We. will not leave you hanging and I'm very. proud about that that we started doing. that in the early days. I know other. nonprofits are getting on board with. some of that, but I just am very proud. in those days where it was like, no, not. the flashy, just the soft guys. It was. everybody. And it was like, tell me more. about your TBI and why you got booted. out of the military. Okay, you're in our.

tribe now. Solid work, man. Thanks, man. >> Wow. Holy. >> There's this one veteran who I'd like to. talk about just for a moment. His name. is Jose Martinez. And Jose um stepped on an IED in. Afghanistan and is a triple ampute. And he is my absolute hero because Jose. is a member of Team USA and he is a. world champion adaptive surfer. and he.

charges bigger waves than I've ever. charged. And he has the biggest smile. you've ever seen and he has the most. stoke for life of anybody I've ever met. And um and it was if it was guys like. that where if if I would have if we as. an organization would have just stuck. with the soft, I would have never been. exposed to people like that. and uh. another seal Dan Kasan who's a Olympian. parolympian seal stepped on a land mine. lost both legs above the knee and he's. surfing double overhead waves in.

Indonesia. >> Wow. >> You know so it's like I actually I could. go on and on and just start going down. the list. Um but once I start I won't. stop. So it's just um it's amazing what. and I think a lot of it what surfing. does and what I would encourage any. listener to to find therapy. It doesn't. have to be surfing. anything that helps. you get into something called the flow. state. Meaning essentially way I see it. as a clinician that anxiety hangs out in. the future, right? When we start. thinking about I need to do this or that. or this is coming up. That's where.

anxiety hangs out. Depression hangs out. in the past. What I should have done, I. have shame about that. I can't believe I. said that to my wife or my husband or. whatever. It's like and there's like. depression. It pulls at you and our. nervous system is kind of tapped into. that and getting pulled back and forth. with all of that. What happens in flow. state or catching a wave with surfing? Albeit, let's say it's 5 seconds to. catch a wave, it actually puts us in a. state of flow where nothing else is. going on except being in the present and. being in the moment of riding that wave. to where it gives that nervous system a.

break. And I get it. It's just for 5. seconds, but what if you catch 10 waves? That's 50 seconds. And what if you do. that three or four times a week? And. then now you start going out and out and. you get into a practice of it. Now you. build in community also that are. cheering you on on on all those waves. Now if it's not surfing, I would. encourage somebody to find something. It. could be strumming a guitar, reading a. book, you know, you get into any kind of. mountain biking, whatever it is, fly. fishing, which we were talking about. earlier, right? It's all of that stuff. to where you're in an act of doing.

something where you have to be fully. present with it because that is giving. that nervous system a break and allowing. us not to hang out in the past or the. future. Interesting. Alex, let's take a quick break. >> Yeah. We come back, we'll uh we'll get. into what you're doing. Now, a. >> lot of people want to talk about. trade craft, how to hide, how to conceal yourself, how to escape, how to evade. But here's.

the thing. The true professional, that's not the guy that's always on the. run. It's the guy who never shows up on the. map to begin with. Which brings me to my next point. Your phone is talking. It's talking through apps you may or may.

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Remember, privacy. isn't paranoia, it's protection. The Glacier Act. Looking for another way to support the. Shaun Ryan Show? Head to shaunryshow.com. and check out the latest drops from. Vigilance Elite. We just released new. gear, including this beautiful moisture. wicking VE performance hat and SRS. Campfire mugs and you guessed it,

Vigilance Elite Gummy Bears. Oh. Every purchase directly supports the. show and helps us continue bringing you. independent conversations without. compromise. Visit shaionsshow.com. and grab yours today. >> We're getting ready to get into what. you're doing now, but first I got a a. hot question for you. >> Okay. >> You ready? >> Yep. >> Out of 15 deployments, take about about.

off the table. >> and the other ones that you talked. about, what's the one mission you've. never been asked about that you still. think about today? Okay, that's a great question. There was an operation called operation. NEDMAC in Afghanistan. and essentially what it was, we were. following, this was circa. 2010. and we were following this group of.

Taliban, about 30 of them, into this. compound, all with weapons. And we were. going to bomb it. But at the time, the. rules of engagement wouldn't allow us to. do that because they saw women and. children in that compound. Just a. handful of them, let's say four to six. However, there's 30 dudes with our, you. know, PKs and RPGs and all of that. So, we they sent us in after them and we. went in with our side by sides, which. were in the back of 47 helicopters, and. drove in forever, then foot patrolled in.

and essentially put an L ambush on this. compound. And then cuz we knew if we. went toe-to-toe with them, some of our. guys were definitely going to get killed. or wounded. So we set up this ambush on. them up in the mountains in eastern. Afghanistan. And we knew what the. Taliban of often did when they'd hear. helicopters in those valleys, they would. just run because they knew if they all. went in different directions, they were. essentially um we could only go after so. many of them. So you had, let's say, a. one in 30 chance that we would pick you.

to go after. But we knowing that we knew. like all right well they're going to run. but they're inside the buildings. So we. set up this ambush and as like a ruse or. a fake out we brought in a helicopter an. empty helicopter close to the valley to. make a lot of noise and then they. started to get out and run out and um. and then we waited for all of them to. get out in the open and ambushed all of. them. >> Holy. >> Yeah. It was just a turkey shoot. And. then.

like it was like it was almost like and. so um and there was only maybe 22 of us. uh that were that you know shot all. these guys. And so then we had to now. work our way through you know get to. them. So we started bounding through. almost like land warfare like bounding. through. We had air strikes coming in. kind of danger close. And then we got in. and um as that was happening, one of our. guys got shot in the side plate clearing. one of the buildings, but he was fine, thank goodness. But my role was taking.

my element to clear out these trenches. and with hand grenades. And so we're. throwing hand grenades into these. trenches. And I remember at one point I. got a little cocky and there's this like. bunker from this trench that went in. there. remind you, you know, there's. already been like 30 EKIA. I've shot all. of my pistol rounds because I was and. I've shot I only have one magazine left. in my rifle and um I'm down to one frag. grenade. So, I'm like pretty much used. all of my munitions, but I saw this. I'm.

like, I don't want to crawl into that. bunker, but I do want to throw a grenade. in it. And so I'm getting too cocky and. I'm kind of standing over it and I have. my cover guy that's holding for me and. I'm like, "All right, I'm going to throw. this grenade and let's roll out, get out. of the way." And he's like, "Okay." And. I pull the M67 frag grenade and I try to. get I got cocky cuz I try to get in the. perfect angle and not just throw it in, but like I'm going to get it perfect. And I drop it in perfectly. And I turn. to to run and I slip and I start sliding.

down into the hole of the bunker with. the hand grenade. So I'm like I could feel it like rolling. on my sh I could feel it rolling on my. shin the the hang grenade with the pin. pulled. >> and I and I was like holy and. started crawling my way out and then. finally got out of the bunker that which. was like a hole that I crawled out of. and just got out just in time for it to. be like boom. >> Whoa. >> Almost completely blew myself up. And um.

yeah, so we uh so that one, Operation. Dead, >> that was that was a good one. >> Here's a followup. What was your. favorite weapon and what did your kit. consist of during your time at Seal Tame. 6? >> That's a great question. My favorite weapon, you know, you know, we we got the HK 416s and that. was all the hot ticket for a long time, at least in that era. But I love I had. this Colt M4 that had a floated barrel.

and a trigger job on it and it was just. completely dialed in and it was about a. pound and a half lighter than the H&K. and I always was like why are we going. away from this rifle? It's awesome. And. but whatever we did and so I would say I. know it's kind of a generic answer but. uh my old floated barrel uh M4 Colt M4. Right on. >> Yeah. >> Well, I got you something. Awesome. You want to see it? >> Of course. >> All right.

>> Holy. Whoa. >> I mean, so I got a buddy over at SIG. His name's Jason. You heard of him? >> Yeah, I've heard of him. Yeah. >> Yeah. He's a good dude. >> Yeah. >> He's a big fan of yours. >> Awesome. And uh so I know that HK 416 is. pretty badass, but this is pretty light. >> What? >> And uh yeah, so this is a 5.56.

MCX Spear. short barrel. Comes with the optic. Comes with the magnifier. It's got a uh. foldable buttstock, which I need to break in for. But uh and. then uh I got some buddies over at. Silencer Shop, too. Oh, >> and so Silencer Shop threw in a. suppressor and um awesome company. They. take they they uh they donate to Second. Amendment causes and and um.

Yeah. And Sig's awesome company, too. >> Oh, man. >> And Jason's an awesome dude. >> Yeah. Thank you, Jason. Thank you, Sig. >> So, uh. >> Yeah. Here, >> dude. This is amazing. >> What you think? >> Thank you, John. >> I know it's been a while. >> Wow. >> Heard it's been a while since you've. shot. It has been a while. >> We wanted to get back into it. So, >> yeah. Thought. >> this thing is beautiful. >> Oh, thank you. >> It's lighter, right? >> Yeah, it's way. I wish I had this. It's. amazing. >> Well, now you do.

>> Yeah. Oh, yeah. This is amazing. Wow. Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> You're welcome. >> Um, yeah. I have small gift for you, too. I love gifts. >> It's just nothing crazy. Just a little. one more wave. >> t-shirt and hat. >> Not maybe not as cool as this worked. out. >> No, this is awesome. >> Yeah, it's just nothing crazy. Just a. ball cap and and t-shirt. >> Thank you. >> Absolutely, man.

And that that one um I actually. >> Oh, man. I love the graphic. >> Yeah. So, it's. >> awesome, dude. >> Yeah. >> Thank you. Absolutely. I mean, that's. nothing like this. >> I'll wear this proudly. >> Appreciate I'll shoot this proudly, man. >> Wow. Thank you. Amazing. >> You're welcome. >> That is one beautiful weapon. >> Sig's awesome, dude. >> Yeah,

>> they uh. pick this up again. >> I'll just tell you, like I got a friend that works over in. this uh in in a sheriff's department in. a neighboring county. >> Yeah. >> Hickman County. >> Sure. Sure. Familiar with it? >> Yeah, definitely. >> And uh they're. they don't have a lot of funding for the. sheriff's department. And um a good. friend of mine works over there and uh. he he used to work here, >> you know, and then he moved over there.

and uh he was telling me about the. rifles they've got. >> and. >> it's just mix match. Sounds like 20, 25. year old rifles. And uh he just he was telling me about. it and he he was like I'm going to try. to. he he just took over the SWAT team or is. in charge of all the weapons over there, whatever. >> And um he was telling me this. I just. started getting angry. I was. like, how how could we be,

>> you know, there's a lot of meth over. there and yeah, >> those guys are dealing with a lot. And. it's like the last thing you guys need. to be worried about is the reliability. of your primary weapon system. when you're doing drug raids and. So, I just I went home and I was thinking. about I was like, "You know what, man? I'm going to buy all these." I. was like, "How many rifles are there?". >> Yeah. >> He's like, there's about 30 guys. >> Yeah. >> And I I was like, "Fuck it. I'm just. going to buy them all. Brand new kid up.

>> That way they don't have to worry about. that shit." Yeah. >> And um so I called Jason and I was like, "Hey, do you guys have any like old. stock laying around that I can just pick. up for at cost or anything?" And. >> he was like, "Let me uh give me a couple. days. I'll get back with you." And uh he. said, "Yeah, we have um I'm going to. butcher this, but. >> it was an old stock." And he goes, "We're going to get them." He goes, "We'll give you the I think it's the. MB400 Pro or something. uh short barrel.

rifle with the optic, flashlight, all. that stuff. >> We'll give it to you at cost. >> And I was like, >> perfect. Yeah, awesome. >> And then a couple weeks went by. and I was like, hey, um. if you're going to give it to me at. cost, can I get some suppressors at cost. too for these guys? And he was like, yeah. He's like, no problem. He's like, we'll do that, too. And then a couple. more weeks went by and uh he was just.

said, "Hey, don't even worry." I was. like, "Where do I send the check?" So, don't even worry about it. We've got it. >> Really? >> Yeah. And uh so they just outfitted that. entire sheriff's department with brand. new, >> man. Good for. >> And good for you for reaching out, too, that to be a to be willing to do it. >> Thanks, man. >> Good for Sig. >> I mean, it's just it's just good. company, you know, and and they make. great They really do. Uh, so I. can't wait to. >> I Yeah, that thing's beautiful. Thank. you. >> See what you think of that thing.

>> Thank you, Sig. >> Yeah, but um. >> I love it already. >> Maybe you can get into a flow stay with. that. >> I have no doubt. >> You know, we were just talking about. flow state. That's right. But. >> so you're a therapist now? >> I am. Yes. Sure am. Um after. so I was training talking about law. enforcement. I was at a local company. here in Nashville. I was when I retired, I was running the SWAT team uh training. program, tactical program of that.

company for teams, federal, state, and. local teams around the country and and I. loved working with cops and and helping. communities that way. But I got to the. point where I thought, am I going to I. think there's something else I want to. do in life. And so I stepped away from. that and I um became a therapist. essentially. I went to grad school. Let. me back up. Before I um you know, I. resigned from that company and I was. trying to figure out what I wanted to do. with my life after that. I knew I wasn't. going to be in tactical training. Not.

that there's anything wrong with it. again, but it was just what else is. there? Can I reinvent myself somehow? >> And like who am I outside of slinging an. assault rifle type thing? And uh. however, I was still struggling so bad. with my mental health that I went to, not to jump ahead too much, but went and. uh got some plant medicine. um treatment. with Ibgainane out of the country and um. 5 MO DMT and when I came out of the the. DMT experience, my um therapist was.

sitting there, my um psychedelic. assisted therapist and she was glowing. almost as the universe say like this is. what you're going to do. You're going to. be a therapist, a clinician that is able. um you know for veterans and and I saw. that as I came out of it she was. glowing. I thought, okay, that's a. little interesting. But that was during. COVID. This was 2020, March, let's say. 12th or 13th. So CO was just kicking off. and we almost barely got out of the. country to get back to the States. And.

when I got back, I had some other little. short jobs lined up. They all went away, little contract, tactical jobs just to. make some money. They all went away. because of COVID. And so I was just. sitting there jobless, not even able to. get a job because it was like that. first, you know, few months of COVID, nobody knew what was going on. And and I. just kept thinking to myself, am I going. to listen to that message um to become a. therapist? And so I I did and started. applying and got into grad school and. finished. And now, yeah, I work as a.

therapist here in Nashville. And um my you know I'm a generalist. technically meaning I help treat people. with all different diagnosises but I. have a special interest with trauma um. from my background but also um that's. just I I'm drawn towards it and um yeah. so I've just I use a lot of different. modalities uh like EMDR clinical. hypnosis. I really like trauma as I said. I thought I would completely be all. veterans and first responders. However,

as I was mentioning earlier on on our. break on one of our breaks that um I. thought I would only be for veterans and. first responders. However, I'm so close. to them and and when they're talking. about their struggles, it's a lot for me. to deal with something called counter. transference. So I have about 25% of my. clients are that and then the the rest. are just uh general population or you. know society which I think is a really. healthy balance for me even though I. wish I could do more for veterans but. with my other work I'm able to scratch.

that itch for veterans and first. responders but in the therapy office. it's um kind of as a generalist for most. people to include veterans and first. responders. >> I mean when you. went to school to do this did you start. to understand yourself more? Yes, absolutely did. I I think and that was. part of the main thing too was I wanted. to really learn what my traumas and my. mental health was about and I went so. deep into it almost obsessive.

because I I realized I knew I was really. struggling um the ideations, suicidal. ideations, all of that. And I I did not. know, you know, if if I was going to. make it essentially. And so going down. that path of therapy, I really was able. to be a student of not just others but. myself. And I believe that that is for. anyone listening, if they're struggling, I'm not saying you have to be a. therapist, but if you are struggling. that bad where you're having suicidal. ideiations, you have to take your mental. health and put as much effort into it as.

you would have done anything that you're. passionate about. For example, if you're. in the military, if it was a, you know, be a SEAL or a pilot or whatever it is, or if you're a, let's say, a musician or. whatever the job is that you're. passionate about, you have to take as. much effort and put it into your mental. health because it deserves that. You. deserve that. And it can't just be a. I'll just kind of kind of band-aid fix. this. It's like if you want this to. extinguish this pain, you have to be. allin. And that's what I was doing with. um grad school to become a therapist.

Um, so it was to help others, but a lot. of it was to help me. Just like One More. Wave was to help others, but a lot of it. was to help me, too. Because being able. to help others, um, has always helped. me. Yeah. Interesting. You know, I like I me I think I me I. can't remember if I mentioned it on the. break or in here, but. just uh I did three and a half years of. therapy. Yeah. >> Twice a week.

I should probably start again, but for. different reasons. >> But that's kind of. I just noticed by hearing myself talk. to somebody, >> I would work my own problems out. >> with really without that much input. >> Yes. >> And uh. I learned a lot from it. A. >> good. It's how I gear my entire.

interview. >> Wow. >> Is I just listen. >> Yeah. >> And it's interesting to see like. some of the men and women that come in. here that you can see them work their. own problems out in their head as. they're sitting here. >> I can imagine. >> going through their stories. >> Yeah. >> I bet you see that all the time. >> All the time. And. for me as a therapist, you know, sometimes. >> why go sorry. Go ahead.

>> So what they sometimes will say um as. therapists, it's like sometimes the best. technique is just to be present and to. be a human, right? There's all these. really cool whisbang techniques and um. and things that you can do, which is. great. A lot of them evidence-based, but. sometimes the most important thing you. can do is just to be present with. someone and just allow them to just. share their stuff to what you were just. mentioning. They're kind of working it. out and making sense of it or you know. giving a narrative and it's just to be.

kind of present and allowing your. allowing them to be heard can sometimes. be the most effective therapeutic tool. >> Why why does it why does it work like. that? I mean, we'll sit there and think. about the same over and over on a. loop. >> thousands of times. >> And then you vocalize it. >> Yeah. >> One or two times. >> and things start clicking. >> I think I'm sorry. >> What's going on? Why does that happen? >> I have a couple of thoughts on it. I. think one I think it's an energy.

exchange. I feel like what happens with. pain and and struggle is it's it's. energy that needs to be like released. And that's why and if it doesn't get. released by let's say talking it could. be talking it could be through EMDR. another technique it could be through. exercise whatever it is like things need. to get moved and if they don't as I was. kind of mentioning before it'll just get. pushed down especially men you know. we'll just push it down push it down. push it down compartmentalize it and it. may come out where let's say you had too.

much to drink and now you've lashed out. at your partner and then the shame. spiral follows that like I can't believe. I did that the next A and then it just. leads to more issues. But the thing is. if we keep pushing it down another thing. could be that it just as I was saying. earlier hardens and calcifies and then. you just become a hard bitter person and. tough to be around. So now you're not. any good to yourself, to your partner, to your kids and all of that. So I think. by talking it just allows some of that. to release kind of bleeds it down a. little bit by little bit. That's kind of.

how how I see it. Um it is interesting. though, right? Like there's a form of. therapy called narrative therapy, which. essentially is just that. It's a form. where you allow that person to tell that. story. And as a therapist, you kind of. jump in and just be like, "Hey, can you. tell me more about that part?" Or you. kind of keep people within the, you. know, the lanes. If they start to, you. know, go off on a tangent, it's like, "Wait, let's talk a little bit more. about this. Like, can we get back to. that?" You're almost like just helping. them uh share their story, but keeping. it on topic, >> which can be very effective, which. >> is like, "Man, you have to go to grad.

school for that." Yeah. Sometimes I'm. like, I know, right? Exactly. Did I have. to? But the the reality is that's like. one of many techniques. And what's. interesting as a therapist, what you're. doing, what I do, I the style I. practice, it's kind of called eclectic, which just means I take from a lot of. different therapies and tailor it to the. client. So, I'm not just like one. approach. It's more of like, okay, Sean. is he likes to do that narrative thing. like that's beneficial for him. So, I'm. going to avoid some others things and I. might introduce something else. But.

what's interesting as a therapist, what. I love about it is you're kind of like. it's very cognitive. Like you're. thinking like, okay, like Sean really. likes this. Let me kind of pull this in. Oh, he doesn't like that. Okay, cool. Let me throw this in there. And so it's. trying to help people with just it's. just you and the person. And that's. what's unique about it. It's like. there's not anybody in there with a. video camera to like double check and. give you feedback. It's more of like. feeling the energy of the other person. And it can be very therapeutic. But some. people too sometimes are just not ready. for therapy. also and that's what I would encourage.

them to lean into community. Actually, I. encourage everybody to lean into. community but and that's like at one. more wave for example, our chapters are. so effective because there's a community. of people especially for veterans. because when we were all were in our. platoon, squads, teams, whatever you. want to call it, and then you get out. and you're no longer in that. You're not. no longer in a community with shared. experiences and language. So, it's just. um if someone isn't getting therapy, getting into, you know, your your. community, whatever that might be for.

them, you know, it could be volunteering. at a church, it could be, you know, volunteering for your kids, you know, sports team, whatever it is, getting. involved with people because a big uh. side effect of depression or trauma is. isolation. That's one of the the things. that we often I used to do it a lot too. Sometimes I still do it and I have to. keep an eye out for it. How do you. But you're one guy. How many How How do. you pick and choose who you're going to. work with? >> Yeah, right now um the people will will.

find me like let's say on online or. whatever it might be and then I'll do a. a screening call with them cuz I want to. make sure I'm a good fit for them too. Let's say it's. somebody who I don't culturally relate. to, whatever it might be. Yeah, of. course I will be happy to help them, but. I might know someone that who I'm a. therapist friend with or associated with. who deals with as a specialty with that. culture, let's just say. And I I might. tell them like, uh, this might not be a. good fit for me, but however, I have the.

I know someone who'd be perfect for you. So, that's kind of part of my job, too, is helping find fits. But, um, but I'll. get on a call with somebody, kind of. figure out, okay, is this a good fit? What are your goals? Um, okay, that. sounds good. and then we'll we'll come. in and even on that first session I'll. tell the client, hey, this is kind of. like we're feeling each other out here. If at any point at the end of this, if. you don't feel like this is a good fit, just let me know. It's all good, right? And but let me know what you do want. And I'm sure within my network, I can. find someone for you. And and I would.

encourage anybody listening to this too. that if you find yourself with a. therapist and you feel like it's getting. nowhere, be your own advocate. You know, it's okay to tell that therapist like, "I'm not feeling it. can you help help. me find someone else? Um, you it's all. day long. It's your mental health. It's. your resources. And that therapist, if. they're a good therapist, should know. that. And likely they'll be like, "Okay, I was kind of feeling that, too. Let's. get you someone else.". >> How long have you been sober or or off. booze? >> Uh, six and a half years. >> Six and a half years. >> Six and a half years. Best thing I ever.

did. I um that was the big catalyst for. me um with my own mental health. Once I. was able to get off that, everything. else started falling into place. >> How were How did you get off that? >> I got off of it in 200 November 19th, 2019. I was at a fundraiser and I was. drinking and I just one of my close. friends pulled me aside and said, "I'm. worried about you." And and I trust him.

I I mean, he's one of my best friends in. the world. And so I believed him, but I. continued to go big that night and and. um and the next day woke up with a. horrible hangover and felt something was. really off in my head. I don't know what. it was. I felt like like I was getting I. was getting back into the suicidal. ideation. It just felt off. Felt. dangerous. And it was that that moment. where I was like, I know I have to save. my own life. If I keep going, I'm going. to attempt suicide. And so then that.

same friend kept coming back to me. afterwards and was like, "We need to get. out of the country and do Ibeane.". And I was like, "Ibegan, I kind of heard. I've heard another friend went and did. it." I'm like, "What do you mean? And. why?" And he's like, "Well, it's illegal. in the States, but a lot of veterans are. starting to do this because the current. system is just not working with cyropic. medications." And and at the time, I had. a great same therapist. She's awesome. and she was helping me through. If it. wasn't for her, I wouldn't even probably.

gotten to that point. And he just kept. saying, "Man, I'm worried about you. I I. really don't know. I I feel like if I'm. not saying this to you that you're going. to do something yourself and I'm going. to regret it for the rest of my life.". >> Who is this? >> Greg Andrews. >> It's I don't know. Is he. >> He's a SEAL. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome friend. And um we had a ton of deployments. together. And um and so I said, "Yes, I I'll. guess. I don't know. I have no other. choice. And so I stopped drinking, said. yes to that, got into um a pro vets.

sponsored me through a program, Mission. Within. At the time it was down in Costa. Rica and we went down there and um I was. just thinking I remember flying in and. thinking, "What am I doing? I'm flying. in a prop plane, landing on a dirt. airirstrip that looks like Pablo Escobar. was, you know, is is going to be running. drugs out of there." like literally like. like flying in and I'm just like what am. I doing? And and I just resigned from my.

job as a a tactical instructor and I I. was listless and I'm like I I don't know. what I'm doing. And then I went in and u. and it completely changed my life uh to. be able I haven't and that helped me I. believe I'd already um been off booze. for a few months at that point two 3. months uh but but I was still having. like cravings and things like that from. it. It was kind of a struggle cuz I'd. been trying to get off of booze several. times before like I would do 30 days on.

30 days off or I would do be able to get. off it for a couple months and then. whatever. It was just this endless. cycle. And then finally when I did I. gain it was like a light switch had gone. off and I have not craved alcohol since. and and I attribute it to to Ibegan. I. mean I'm still in therapy with the same. therapy. She helps me with a lot of this. stuff. I have been to some meetings from. time to time but I feel like it was the. ibeane that really uh got me off of the. alcohol. And another reason why the. ibeane is so effective for opioid use.

disorder and things like that is from. the addiction properties. But that it. was that that really helped me kick the. alcohol. >> That's the second time the second time I. met you was at uh what Tennessee what. was that? The house. >> Yeah. Yeah. for the hope treatment act. at the capital for Tennessans for ibeane. which I can't thank you enough for being. there because we were to let the. audience know I'm uh an ambassador for.

Tennessans for ibeane and Tennessee and. Americans for ibeane essentially trying. to um gets the clinical trials of ibeane. studied um to pass FDA approvals. So we. hope I believe and and our organization. believes that Ibegan has some incredible. potential for addiction specifically. around opioid use disorder but also. alcohol um PTSD traumatic brain injury. and potentially um things like. Parkinson's and dementia however we. don't know you know it's um anecdotal.

there's some studies that have come out. but that is true that's yeah when we met. it was you know fighting for that to get. it clinical trials approved here in the. state of Tennessee um which is one of. the 12 states that were trying to make. that happen and without your help I. don't know if we could have gotten past. that committee as we were kind of. talking about earlier um and we can get. in or not but just the how tough it was. especially here in the south to get. clinical trials of a psychedelic past.

but um yeah the team really worked hard. to get that done and I appreciate the. assist that you brought in because I'm. not sure if we could have pushed it. across the line without you we were. stuck at that subcommittee Well, I mean, you guys did all the work, man. >> How did you. How'd you meet Ricky? I met Ricky. Uh, and for the listeners, Ricky Harris is a. ambassador for Americans for Ibegan. He. kind of heads up the Tennesseeians for. Ibigane. I met her through a mutual. friend, um, who just she asked me, "Hey,

would you like to help with this and. share your story as a veteran and how it. has impacted, you know, your life so. that we can try to get some of this. stuff passed at the state capital?" And. I thought I was like absolutely I'm very. passionate about it. It fits in line. with my um my my why essentially is to. impact human suffering. And so it fit. right in. I was like, "Yes, I've been. waiting for this." And so um we started. going to the capital and advocating for. the Hope Treatment Act. And um and I was.

Yeah. And Ricky's awesome. Like her the. her she is a force of nature and very. sharp woman. And it wasn't for her also, I don't know if any of this would have. gotten passed. Yeah. She's sharp. Yeah, >> she's a sharp lady. >> There's no doubt about it. >> But it did pass though, right? >> It did pass. Yeah. And then right after. that, the larger organization uh. Americans for I gain with uh Brian. Huard, who's the CEO and Governor Rick. Perry, that they helped drive the. executive order from the president u to. sign in to allow for a an easier way to.

study psychedelics. Uh so there's been a. lot from that. there's been a ripple. effect uh that has come from it and we. just have to as an organization keep. pushing it because there's this okay we. have all this momentum let's not let it. get too stale let's keep pushing it for. at least the clinical trials and let. science show what we think is is. possible so that it can get FDA approved. so it's not just a bunch of veterans. that are having to travel out of the. country to get treatment I mean and to.

me I'm like well what about the average. Joe and Jane that don't have the. connection to do that like and what if. they're struggling let's say with opioid. use disorder like can we because that is. systemic that is generational there's so. much suffering with that and and that's. why it's important for the clinical. trials right let's science not just my. opinion or of it so. >> yeah yeah. man we covered a lot of ground here.

>> do you miss the teams. >> I do I I do miss the teams I mean. there's t of course I think of the. highlight reel of like all the good. times and I forget the low light reel of. just being freezing, but I I do I'm I'm proud of my service, but I feel that that was a chapter of my. life that will allow me to do what I'm. doing now. Like I couldn't be the. therapist I am now without have been a. SEAL first or I couldn't have worked in. advocacy or even sitting here in front. of you without first have done some of.

that to help you know to impact. suffering. So, I just Yes, I miss the. teams. Um, but I'm. Yeah. Yeah, I miss it. I'm kind of. onward though from a lot of it. What. about you? >> I don't miss it anymore. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> I don't. >> I hear you. >> But I didn't have your career either, so. >> Well, yeah. I mean, I there's times I. definitely don't too. Let's just be. real. There's like I like that, you. know, when it's like cold and rainy out. I'm glad sometimes I think I could be on.

a boat bobbing around in the Atlantic. Ocean right now with a dry suit on the. seasick. Yeah. No, I've uh it took it took me a. long time. It took me a long time, but I. have 100% moved on and uh I'm doing my. best work now. >> Yeah. >> So, doing a lot of good work. >> Thank you. You're impacting a lot of. suffering, too. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, >> I'm doing my best.

>> Yeah. >> But. well, man. >> Mhm. >> It was an honor, >> Senator Sean. Thank you for the. opportunity. >> Thank you. >> Really appreciate it. Got them. No matter where you're watching the. Shawn Ryan Show from, if you get. anything out of this at all, anything,

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