Woman Gets FB Message From Old College BF After He Killed His Rapist - This Is Her Response

[Music]. Bada bing, bada boom. >> In America, there are approximately 25. million secret boxes. That's basically. what they are. I mean, I guess the. official terminology would be a safety. deposit box. But these are typically. hidden away. These little secret boxes, they're hidden away inside these bank. vaults across the United States. And you. could say lots of people go there to. hide away their expensive stuff, their. watches, jewelry, cash. They just stick. them in there and no robber can come get. them. Things that they don't feel secure.

keeping in their homes, they go in the. safety deposit box. But a lot of the. times you open these little boxes up. because you have a secret. It's like a. spouse hiding cash from another spouse. Is it for good reason? We don't know. A. family man hiding documents that might. include the existence of a second. family. That's going in the safety. deposit box. He's not going to put that. in a shoe box at the bottom of his. closet. Usually, you never really have. the chance to open someone else's secret. box because that's the whole point.

They're jumping through all of these. hoops to make sure it stays secret. Unless they're dead, then that it's a. whole process. Depending on what state. you live in and your will, let's just. say if you die under suspicious. circumstances, like if you were, let's. say, killed in your living room by the. little boy that you assaulted, only he's. not so little anymore. He's a full-. grown man with a knife. Then yeah, most. likely that safety deposit box is going. to be opened under the watchful. supervision of authorities and very.

tense, very awkward bank employees. In. Dennis Peg's safety deposit box, they. find a ton of letters, handwritten. letters. None of the letters are. particularly insightful. He doesn't. spill all of his secrets to confess. anything, but the letters are really. creepy. First of all, he wrote these. letters 10 years before he dies. While. he's a relatively healthy, slightly. middle-aged man, typically men of that. age are not fully estate planning with. handwritten letters to everyone that.

they deem special in their lives. And. the letters themselves are strange. They. all contain variations of the phrase, "Pray for me if you can," which if. they're reading his letters, he's. already dead. And forgive me for my. faults. I've forgiven you for yours. you. were always like a little special son to. me or a little brother to me. It's just. letter after letter in that safety. deposit box most likely written for his. victims. Victims who after their abuser. is dead will be delivered a handwritten.

letter asking them to pray for their. abuser. In part one, we went over the night of. the killing where Clark, after 33 years. of not doing anything about Dennis Peg, his abuser, when he was 12, he decides. he's going to do something now. He goes. to Dennis Peg's house after 30 plus. years. Dennis sees him at the front door. holding a hunting knife that ironically. Dennis taught Clark how to sharpen. And. all he says is, "Hey, how are you?".

Clark is slashing at him, slitting his. throat, stabbing him countless times, and then finally he spits on his bed. before walking out. Clark's mom tries to. help him get away with murder. She's. like, "We got to go on the run." But he. decides he's going to stay. And that is. when the police come for him. They. arrest Clark and now he's going to. prison where he's going to be placed in. the cells with the types of people that. he hates the most. I mean, one of them. that he's already killed. Those are. child predators. In part two, we're. going to cover Clark's time in prison, how he survived, all the strange details.

about what it means when your fellow. cellmate keeps flushing his head down. the toilet, and how Clark is now a free. man. We also go into depth about what. happened to his brother, another victim. of Dennis Peg, who ends up being killed. by Dennis. And what even happened in. those 33 years between Dennis Peg. abusing Clark and Clark killing Dennis. for what he's done? Why did the FBI come. to find Clark? How does he get involved. with the mob, the mafia? Also, the fact. that Dennis Peg has likely close to 100. victims, including his own grand nephew,

who selfexits soon after Dennis Peg's. murder. And somehow throughout all of. this, the one person that Clark cannot. stop thinking about is a woman named. Lisa. So, what role does Lisa play in. all of this? This is part two, the final. part of our interview with Clark. Fedrics. All of those questions will be. answered in this part of the episode, but there are still so many details and. stories that Clark has to share that you. can find in his memoir, Scarred, or by. following him on his social media and by. checking out his podcast. So, that being.

said, let's get into part two. You've been reached out by the IRS, the. FBI, and Homeland Security. >> That's correct. >> Were you counting cards? >> I studied counting cards, but I found it. to get a little distracting. This is. going to sound weird. >> Okay. >> You know, I would go to the casinos and. I would walk the casino floor and I. would get a vibe for a table. I'd be. like, "This is the table." And I just.

get a feeling for it. And I would gamble. and I would get a feeling like, all. right, it's time to up your bet. >> And I had an unbelievable like four or. five year run in the casinos that was. just astronomical. I I'm working in the. tire automotive field making $700 a week. and I'm down in Atlantic City winning. tens of thousands of dollars left and.

right. And you're just putting cash in. your closet. >> Uh in my briefcase in my closet. >> This goes on for how many years? >> This this was a distraction from my. pain. >> Yeah. >> You know, and it's not like I I it's not. like I consciously said. >> I have trauma from being abused as a. child. I need to gamble to distract. myself. It was just I'm uncomfortable. I. feel uncomfortable. It's my trauma in. there making me feel uncomfortable. I I. feel uncomfortable and I need something.

to distract me from that uncomfortable. feeling. I need pleasure. I became a. pleasure seeker. Don't address anything. Don't ever go inside. Let's just seek. pleasure our whole life. Whether it's. drugs, gambling, whatever it may be, seek pleasure. So that's what I was. doing with gambling. >> Like what is the most you've lost? Most. I lost uh was 75,000.

>> And do you feel it in that moment? Like. I just lost 75,000. >> Yeah. You can't sleep. It's just uh acid. is a wash in your stomach. >> Mhm. >> But again, the the the high you get from. losing is just it distracts you from. everything just like the high from. winning. >> You start by reading books about. gambling and then somehow you end up. being very superstitious. >> Yeah. I mean, I went down there just on. a whim, like bored with life and and.

won,700. Went back, won 2,200, but I was. getting yelled at at the blackjack table. cuz I didn't know what I was doing, but. I was still winning. >> So, I'm like, I'm not going to go back. until I know what the hell I'm doing. And I would always hear all this. screaming at the craps table that. sounded like a blast. So, I had no idea. what how to play crap. So I I took like. 6 months. I got five deck of cards. I. read all these books on blackjack. I.

read books on craps. I would throw dice. in my room. I would play all the hands. of blackjack. I'd pick which one I am. and and see how it would affect things, my decisions. And and I did that for 6. months until I felt comfortable to go. back down. and then just like boom, you. know, like 17,000, 28,000, 30,000. It. just it just went boom boom boom boom. boom. >> Is it true that like if you win or lose,

you could blame it on the fact that you. stepped on a crack? Like is that like. genuinely what starts happening or. >> those little quirks didn't start right. away but as you start winning more and. more and more you start thinking I all. right what what did I do like. >> all right I better not step on any. cracks like I don't know even know where. it came from like it was just like boom. like all right what what what did I do. in the days leading up to going to the.

casino like oh when I went up the stairs. stairs. I I jumped that second stair and. and then that uh you know like I skipped. two stairs there. So like then I would. have to go up the stairs a certain way. and then I I couldn't step on any cracks. on pavement like and then you know like. where they paint the blue handicap spots. with the wheelchair. I'm like that's bad. luck. Don't ever step on that. And and. then when I would get to the casino,

there was a whole other ritual like for. rolling the dice, it would I would have. to tap it a certain number of times. And. in my knee, I would have to hit the. table with my knee a certain number of. times before I could roll the dice. And. it was like it just started getting more. and more and more and more insane. >> You start at the casinos, but then you get involved with the mob. >> Yeah. You know, another brilliant, you. know, brilliant decision.

>> Okay. So, you get invol involved with. the mob. How much do you owe the mob? >> It was because I needed action every day. of the week to distract myself from. feeling uncomfortable. >> So, like I couldn't wait to go gamble. I. needed something. What am I going to do. Monday through Friday? >> Yeah. So it came about that I could through a. bar I could start sports betting every. day of the week and I was given a a no.

limit bet. So like I could bet as much. as I wanted as often as I wanted. In six. months, I was broke, like lost. everything. And. in that last week, I was down 20,000. And I didn't have it. Now, you would. think, all right, it's time to walk away, Clark. But no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I. am going to get that 20,000 back if I.

can, plus some. So, I I called the the. number that I called to place my bets. and I said, "Hey, I got to move some. money around. Uh, can you let me carry that 20,000. over for another week?" And they're. like, "For you, anything." I'm like, "Okay.". So, I go into that next week, 20 in the. hole, and I'm like, I got to get that 20. back. Plus, I want to keep gambling, so. I need I need to win on top. So, I just.

start making really stupid bets. And. when the week ended, I was 77,000 in the. hole to the mob. >> So, when you were gambling in casinos, you were making money. >> Yeah. >> How much were you making? >> Oh, hundreds. I I mean, my largest win. was 153,000. >> Oh my gosh. And that was after losing. three times on the craps table where I. had 20 to 30,000 at a clip up there.

>> Wow. >> So I I was well over a quarter million. just for that one time. But I mean. 50,000 70,000. My host put me into a uh. blackjack tournament for 75,000 winner. take all. And he's like I think you got. this, bro. your your your luck is. unbelievable. I didn't win I got knocked. out about halfway through it, >> but I went to a high stakes blackjack. table and I won 80,000. So like I won.

more than what the what the the prize. was. >> So then you were like, "Okay, I'm going. to do this with the mob and then you're. down 77,000. and now the mob is trying to kill you.". >> The mob is threatening me, threatening. my life. The mob is telling me the best. thing I could do for myself is to go rob. a bank. The guy's like, "Look, if you. get caught, you're looking at 5 to 10. years. You'd be a hell of a lot better. off doing 5 to 10 years than what we're.

going to do to you." And they're calling. me every day. And this was like a. constant, "Dude, you got to go rob a. bank." Like, what are you waiting on? Go. rob a bank. Maybe you'll get away with. it. You can give us money and hold us. off. You get caught. You go do 5, 10. years. What's the big deal? You know, that was what they were constantly on. >> Did you ever consider robbing a bank? >> No. >> Oh. >> And then they started they called my. family. >> They got my father's phone number and. they said, "Uh, hey old man, you want to.

save your son's life? You better pony up. some money for him." I had already gone. to my family to warn them. And uh sure enough, they called my. father. Then they called my brother who. I used to be in business with. And uh. they're like, "Uh, your brother's. in a lot of trouble. You have the power. to save your brother's life. You can do that by paying us what he. owes us." And I had told everybody to.

tell them like, "This is Clark's. responsibility. He'll handle it with. you." And that's what they both said. But they it scared everybody uh to. death. Were you not scared? >> Oh, yeah. It was the worst time of my. life. >> Okay. >> It was horrible. Um, I had a shotgun in. my truck. >> loaded that I drove around with. I had a. baseball bat in my office. >> Um, I was constantly on edge. Like just to.

leave the house in the morning, I got to. go to all the windows of the house and. look out in the yard behind the shed, see if anybody's out there, you know. Uh. the same thing leaving my office like. I've got to like survey every I was just. hypervigilant that's what they call it. and I was hyper vigilant to the max. >> So the mob is as scary as they're. depicted in movies and books like. they're intense. >> Yeah. It was it was just angry.

threatening phone calls almost on a. daily basis. And I wasn't trying to like. get out of I wasn't trying to weasel. out. >> Yeah. But I told them the only way I. could make good on this is to set up a. payment plan. And what I really could. afford was $500 a month at the time. because I had, you know, I had a lot of. uh debts to casinos, you know, like uh. casinos would all let me have, you know, markers, $20,000 markers in them all. So.

I had all these markers I owed and. credit cards were maxed out. >> So like I'm trying to juggle everybody. So I I told the guy, you know, like I. can do 500 a month. And the guide went. absolutely bananas. And he's like, $500 a month doesn't even. cover the juice on $77,000. Like you're out of your mind, bro. So uh. it was it was uh it was a horrible time.

And then and then I get a phone call. after months of this. and it's them. and they don't ask for money. They just. say you're a dead man and click and hang. up. And then uh a couple months goes by. after that where I'm completely like on. edge like. can't sleep. You know, you're always. listening for every little sound. like.

is that somebody out there? And uh I get a call. At this point in. time, we had two tire automotive. centers. I had one and my brother had. one and I happened to be at my brother's. store one day and his office manager. came in the back room and said, "Hey, there's a phone call for you." I'm like, "Who the hell's calling me over here? Nobody knows I'm here." He goes, "I. don't know. They asked for Clark.". So, I answered a phone and uh the guy.

introduces himself as a special agent. with the FBI. I need to meet you at your. Newton location, the store I had. >> on Thursday at 3:00. And I'm like I'm like, "Well, bro, like. you got to tell me what this is about.". He's like, "No, I don't." He goes, "I'll. see you Thursday at 3:00." And he hangs. up. And then your mind just goes like in a. million directions, you know, like.

I I couldn't fathom what the FBI is. coming to meet me for, you know, like I. I was I was doing some now and then and. I'm like, is the FBI going to try to try. to pinch my dealer by by by put. pressureing me? Like I'm buying a. grandma. Like the FBI is getting in. involved on a grandma. So, I had no idea. what it was. And then they came, the guy. came to the store.

and clearly it was an FBI guy and said. they had an informant inside, one of the. major crime families who told them a hit. had been put out on my life for my. gambling debt. And uh if I didn't think it was real. before then, that really that really. made everything real. But you still. didn't snitch. You didn't cooperate with. the FBI. You're like, "Well, I. >> No, they wanted me to wear a wire." And. I was like, "Are you out of your mind?".

Like, like, "My life is hell right now. You You want me to wear a wire and make. it even worse?" I go, and I told the FBI. guy what I told the mob guy. I go, "This. is my problem, and I'm not running from. it, and I'm going to deal with it." And. the guy, the FBI guy said, "Well, that's. very noble of you, but if things get too. heavy for you, here's my card. You can. call me.". >> Wait, what did the FBI guy offered you. at first? He said, "Wear a wire and we. will help you or.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's not like, yeah, like. we'll solve your problem by taking these. guys down." And I'm like, "No, this is. my problem and I'm not going to compound. it by wearing a wire.". >> Wow. Is it because that you scared that. wearing a wire is more dangerous than. >> That's just not the type of person I. was, you know, like it's not it wasn't. in my DNA to become a little weasel. snitch wearing a wire. Like. >> interesting.

>> Like no, it's not who I am. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> It's all in the book. But. >> if you cuz I know the FBI, Homeland. Security, and IRS Criminal Division. reach out. If you had to rank them in. intensity, who was the scariest agency. because it's a lot of experience, but. >> division of Homeland Security, I'd say, is at the bottom. >> Yeah, that makes sense. >> Boy, the IR the IRS did a full audit on. me. They thought I was mon. moneyaundering cuz I was putting in all.

this cash from the gambling winnings. into my bank account. That That was a. nightmare doing that. >> You didn't just tell them you're that. good. They're like, "No, we don't.". Well, that's, you know, that's what I, you know, I eventually got to that point. with them, you know, but there's laws. for trying to skirt the $10,000. notification rule, you know, >> dummy me. Like somebody said, "Oh, if. you put in under $10,000 deposit, it. doesn't get get recorded or notified.".

So, I'm like, "Oh, cool." So 9800 9700. 9600 9700 9800 9200 9400 9800 like. non-stop and then that sets off all the. red flags and uh so yeah that was a. nightmare too. >> So IRS or FBI who's scarier? >> Uh I I think when you're told a hit's. been put out on your life and a. confidential informant that's the top of. the list. Yeah, >> that's like in your 30s. But it does.

seem like after everything that Dennis. did, there were signs in your childhood. where a lot of psychiatrists later say. it seemed like you're crying for help, like trying to get help in a way. Playing with fire. Is that one of them? >> Yeah, I was a little I became a little. fire bug. >> What is it about fire? Cuz I I see that. a lot in a lot of cases. Yeah, I think. it has to do uh with control.

>> and it's an outlet for uh anger. from what happened. >> So, you're just like lighting matches. Are you lighting things on fire? Yeah, I. I lit our house or we had this screened. in uh patio bar area out back and I lit. the corner of that on fire and like guys. happened to show up that were going to. be painting the house. >> and like the the screened in porch.

things on fire like it had been. smoldering overnight and caught on fire. when they got there and you know we had. a huge backyard and ra the leaves into a. pile uh where the swing set was and. you'd swing off into the leaves. Well, I. just took a can of gas all over the. leaves and set it on fire and this big. fire exploded. And. >> these are big fires. >> Okay. >> So, yeah. And then and then another. another sign of uh abuse is uh.

shoplifting. And I got caught. shoplifting. And uh it's the same thing. It's uh it's an out outlet for anger uh. and pain. It's a control issue. You. know, you're you're. um yeah, so those were signs and and and. I started smoking pot like right after. the abuse, you know, 12 years old, started smoking pot, drank heavily in. high school,

uh got suspended for coming in drunk. uh got caught on a class trip to the. Jersey Shore drinking on a bench with. two other buddies and the the chaperone. teachers come up behind us and like. seriously seriously guys. Um. my my principal threatened me that I. wouldn't graduate with the class if if. at the prom he even had the hint of. alcohol on my breath. Did you ever feel.

frustrated that these teachers are. saying these things to you but they. don't they don't like recognize. what is underlying underneath that. behavior? Was there any sort of. frustration or anger towards them? >> Uh no no I'm I'm you know. there was there was a thing with the uh. essay I wrote um which is unbelievable. Uh, I would I would hope that times have. changed. Um,

and you know, your audience, you know, in the book they'll they'll see this. essay I wrote and I I put a lot of stuff. in there in this essay that was it just. screams I've been abused, you know, like. I need help and I've been abused and uh. the teacher gave me an A and said use. more paragraphs next time. So like if if. you see a sudden change in behavior. in in a younger person, there's there's.

a reason why, you know, like. shoplifting, fire, weed, drinking, getting suspended, getting detentions, getting caught on class trips, getting. threatened by the principal, like the. writing this essay that screamed, "I. need help." And. I don't know if it was a sign of the. times. Um, but it was all right there and uh, you.

know, nobody picked up on it. What's interesting about your case is. that cuz I know there's a lot of cases. where maybe victims family and parents. are not as involved in their lives and. they might be missing a lot of the. larger signs, but it seems like your dad. was picking up on these signs and he. asked you multiple times. >> Yeah. >> And you never told him. >> what happened. And and that really like,

you know, I've been asked, you know, if. I have regrets in life, you know, like, do I regret owing 77,000 to the mob? Do. I regret doing drugs? Do I regret, you. know, like really the only. and it's tough to have this regret, but. I do have this regret, you know, like. being a young boy and lying to my father. when he asked me if Dennis Peg ever. touched me. And I just couldn't. The. shame is the shame is there and the pain.

is there and my parents viewed me as the. golden child for surviving this. operation and I just didn't want to. become now the abused. son who's tortured inside mentally, you. know. So, I just told my dad, "No, he. never touched me.". >> Around the time that your dad starts. asking you if Dennis Peg ever touched. you, there was there were some other. kids that were talking about it. Yeah, that's how it came out. >> And nothing happened. >> All right. Now, now just picture this.

You have a 260. pound hulking lieutenant at the jail. who's waiting out in the parking lot for. young male inmates to get released so he. can take them home to his house to. mentor them. I'm a mentor. I'm going to. give you a safe environment. you come. live with me, we'll get you back on your. feet. In the middle of the night, he would.

pounce on these young male inmates. Some ran away, some didn't. Some probably froze like I. froze, but they would the ones that ran away in. the middle of the night in Still at. night. store is just like a little tiny. rural town and they would hitchhike and. when they would get picked up they would. tell the people like I just got out of. jail and this guy told me he would give. me a safe place to stay to get my feet.

back on the ground and in the middle of. the night he's in my bed trying to do. stuff with me and it spread like. wildfire around Stillwater. and that's where My father sat me down, said, "Did Dennis ever touch you?" The. first time he sat me down was probably a. a year after the So, I was probably 13. The second time was when a waitress in a.

uh uh doughnut shop told my father over. a cup of coffee that her son, who was a. classmate of mine, same grade from. Stillwater in the Boy Scouts, had been by Dennis. And. my father came home after she said that. and he this time he said, "Before you. answer me, I just want you to know. you'll never have to go to the cops. You'll never have to testify in court.

I'll take care of Dennis myself." Did he. ever touch you? So is is my father. saying, "I'll kill Dennis.". That's how I took it. And that's way too. much weight to put. your teenage son under. Like as tempting. as it was, like I I I was tortured over. that for a long time. Like, man, do I. tell him? Do I tell him? Do I tell him? I want Dennis dead. Yeah, dad could kill.

him. Dad could kill him. But then what. if it goes wrong? What if dad gets. killed in the in the attack? Then then. it's my fault for telling him. What if. dad. goes to prison for the rest of his life. and I'm without a father? That's on me. because I told him. So now I can't tell. him. Now I can't and I didn't tell him. >> Do you think your dad would have? >> Yeah, cuz there's uh something later on.

the book my dad told me on his deathbed. and uh. that just confirmed that he would have. done it. How do you feel that it was you. that killed Dennis rather than your dad? Yeah. Nobody's ever asked me that. Um, I. I feel better that it was me instead of.

my dad. cuz. [Music]. sending somebody else to do your work to. like look if. I did it and I was either on a suicide. mission, I was either going to commit. suicide after or I was going to do life. in prison. That's on me. I don't want to be. responsible for sending somebody else to.

do life in prison to get mortally. wounded maybe or to commit suicide after. they do it. I don't want that that on my. shoulders. >> It seems by all accounts you were a very. smart kid and you end up at. Northeastern. >> Yeah. And I never applied myself in high. school. Like after the abuse, I just. every everything was lacking, you know, another sign, you know, but I was really. smart and I could do no work at BC's.

Somehow I got into Nor Eastern. They. they weren't as strict back then as they. are now. Like now it's like ub uber. tough to get in, you know. Uh but I got. in and uh became a excellent student and. I gradu graduated cumloud. And there is. someone that you meet at Nor Eastern. that's featured in your book. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I you know, Dennis Peg did. a lot of things that derailed a lot in. my life. And one of the things he. derailed was me being able to be.

intimate. with a partner. And by intimate I mean. like open, you know, like. is one thing, intimacy is a completely. different thing. And uh I met this girl Lisa. and. she was so bubbly and outgoing and. she approached me. I was I was just. studying by myself and she came over and.

pllopped down and just she was a. whirlwind in my life and. she saw signs though even back then like. she would say to me we would be laying. together in bed and I would I would have. like soldiers come back from war and. have a thousand mile stare. I had that. stare. and she'd be like, "Hello, hello." And. she'd be like like in front of my face.

and I'm still just like like I wouldn't. even acknowledge it. >> And then she'd hit me and I'd be like, "What?" She's like, "Where are you in. your mind right now?" Like. >> Mhm. >> you are not present with me. I'm like, "I have no idea what you're talking. about." You know, like played it off. that she was nuts. Um, you know, the the trauma of this. abuse was still really fresh and raw and. uh I would get lost in thought about it.

And. we had an amazing connection, amazing. love between us. I could tell her I. loved her and I did. Uh we had passion. and. we dated for 6 years and she was ready. to like. start our lives together, get married, careers, family, whatever it would.

entail. And. I couldn't do that. Like. >> did you ever think about telling her or. >> No. Why? >> For a similar reason to my parents. I. didn't want to go from the cool, sexy, party animal, funloving boyfriend. to the. wounded, broken wing.

duckling. >> So you guys break up. >> We break up. Do you feel like she was I mean do you. believe in soulmates? Is that a crazy. question to ask someone your age or is. that. >> Yeah, I I do. >> Do you think that she was yours? >> Yeah. >> How long after college do you guys break. up? >> Um.

I was a year ahead of her. Mhm. >> So I graduated and then she graduated a. year behind and then like another year. after that. um is when she's like, you know, what. are we doing here? You know, I was I was. just. jerking her around at that time. And uh. she's like, you know, you she was living in the. city. I was living in Jersey. I would go. in for a weekend. We'd have an amazing.

time, but then I'd disappear for a month. or two, >> and then show back up, have an amazing. time, disappear again. And she's like, "Every time you disappear, you're. breaking my heart. Like, what are you. doing?". >> And uh I just uh she's like, "Are we. going to get our act together and get. going on life together or or not?" And I. go, "I can't do that.". Like everything is is subconscious with.

it with abuse. It was just like the thought of. getting married, being tied down. scares me to death. It makes me feel. really uncomfortable. cuz being tied down. and scared to death is how I was in that. guy's house. and I'm feeling trapped and I felt. trapped in that house. So, just that. trapped feeling. I can't feel trapped. I. don't want to feel trapped. Don't make.

me feel trapped. I'm going to run. If. you make me feel trapped, you're making. me feel trapped. I got to go. Sorry. And. that's how it was. And that's how it was. with careers, you know? Like in my 20s, it was like two to three years in a. career and that was it. Like I'm I'm. getting really uncomfortable feeling. I'm feeling trapped. I'm feeling. like like just a lot of pressure. I'm. just feeling like I'm I'm just like.

getting pushed down into the ground. I got to run. I got to go. I was a prey. caught in his snare. He had me trapped. for years and I just never wanted to. feel that feeling again. >> Just a interesting observation. You. don't have to comment, but it's. interesting cuz you feel that way with. relationships and careers, but in your. book, you don't use this terminology for.

your careers, but you do with Lisa. You. have this tendency to write post Lisa. when describing certain events that. happened after the breakup. It's very. interesting. Back in college, myself and my two roommates and Lisa and. her two roommates, we all dated. So, the. six of us were always together. Two of. the couples didn't make it. Lisa and I. being one, but one of the couples did.

They got married. >> After college, you guys break up. You're. in the FBI's calling you. The mob is. after you. Everything is kind of everywhere. And. then you killed Dennis Peg. >> Yeah. >> Like in your darkest time, you never. thought like maybe I should reach out to. her. >> Constantly over o over the decades. Constantly. >> What stopped you? >> Just the way I was living, the the the. shape I was in, the shape my life was.

in. Like. I had so many grandiose. fantasies about finding Lisa and. sweeping her off her feet and riding off. into the sunset and. but I've got the mob wanting to kill me. Like I'm really going to bring her into. that. I'm going to go find her, sweep her off. her feet, ride off into the sunset, but I'm addicted to drugs and alcohol.

Really? I'm going to bring her into. that. >> So you don't. >> So there was never a good time. I talked. myself out of it. I would talk myself. into it and then I talk myself out of. it. >> So you don't not reach out because of. you. You don't not reach out for her. Like you don't want to bring her into. these things. So. >> yeah. I like I don't want to hurt her. all over again. Like I knew I hurt her. back in the day and I cared so much for. her. I didn't want to do that again.

Like my life, my life from the abuse to. the murder, it was it was tumultuous to. say the least. Like I was. I was off wandering in the desert for 30. years like just going down one bad path. after another and I couldn't bring her. into that. >> So now you're in jail. You're facing. life in prison after the killing. You're. withdrawing from drugs. You have a hole. in your hand. I mean, what what are your.

options to plead insanity? Like, do you. have any options at this point? What's. going on in your mind the first night in. jail? >> Well, they put me. >> in the cell, which is exactly where I. needed to be. >> Dude, the lights turn off in there. >> No, >> I feel like that makes things worse. No. >> Okay. you know, they the camera's in. there and you know, uh it's on you and. uh. uh yeah, it was hell.

>> I think what's interesting is I was. reading through all of like the. psychiatric reports that were done when. you were in jail. Did you feel like a. lab rat? It seems like there's so much. debate about your state of mind. Do you. feel like you're just being poked and. prodded at? And. >> yeah, like th those psych exams were. like nerve-wracking, you know, it was, you know, cuz you. >> some of the stuff they had you do was. just, you know, >> they would show you pictures and try to. get you to describe the scenario, the.

scene. >> Scene. Yeah, >> it's very interesting. And you know, and. then like I had to do the uh the roar. shack test, the ink blotss. Yeah. Like. and you got to come up with what it. looks like and it's just uh. oh my god. And I thought like one wrong answer like. they would like he cannot get out for. the rest of his life. Boom. you know, like I just thought uh like I was and.

the pressure you put yourself under to. try to answer things, right? That just. makes it worse because then you get. you're like and like and and like 500. multiple choice tests like boom you take. this 500 multiple choice test like and. they ask you the same question in that. multiple choice test four different ways. >> seeing if you like they'll reward it but. it's the same question to see if you. answer differently. You know. >> it seems like you were honest. I don't. know. This is one. So, you were shown a.

picture that is not provided, but. you say that it appears to be a man. who's pulling away. She's trying to hold. him and talk to him. Maybe he drinks too. much and has anger problems. So, it. feels like you took these tests very. seriously. Like, it doesn't seem like. you were trying to answer how they. wanted. >> Almost almost feels like I'm talking. about Lisa and I. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. When you get to prison eventually,

you have to carry around a file so that. if someone accuses you of being a ped, prisoners will show their file. Were. there a lot of pedophiles getting beaten. up in prison? >> There's a lot of fights, but it wasn't. necessarily the pedophiles getting. beaten up. Believe it or not, the prison likes the. pedophiles because they're the snitches. >> So like they use them.

>> that's so interesting. >> to to be snitches. So like they, you. know, like they hate what they did, but. they use that against them to get info. out of them. So, um, on the unit I was. on, I was told by my, uh, therapist, uh, that two out of three, I I was told. one out of three, closer to two out of. three guys on my unit was there for a.

crime, mostly involving children. I was. like, are you kidding me? And I'm likeay. and uh and I and then you know I was you. know one of the guards told me like oh. yeah they're they're our snitches for us. you know like they give us all all the. dirt on guys. >> If you hear about a pad that gets beaten. up in jail. Did you feel anything where. you're just like.

>> well in the county jail? >> Mhm. The tier I was on was not supposed to. have any. >> And yet. somehow I was told by. by paperwork getting. mixed up, they kept putting ped files on. my tier in the county jail. And the. guards. in the county jail hated the pedals. The. pedophiles in prison, they they use.

them. In the county jail, they hated. them. And they would come up to me and. be like, "That guy just came on. He's a. kitty toucher." So like they would be. like egging me on to like do something. >> But that would have made your life. exponentially harder. >> as well. >> Yeah. and and I. I was cognizant of like. what will that look like to go to trial,

to go to sentencing and all I've been. doing my whole time here is beating up. pedophiles like. >> yeah, >> how how could they possibly release me. then? Mhm. >> But I would tell them, myself and. another guy would go sit down with them. and I did this a couple times early on. and then I just let two other guys and. we would just say, "Look, man." Uh, we. got word that you're a kitty toucher. They, you know what they call them in.

there? I don't even know if I put it in. the book. Um, >> I don't think so. >> Tree jumper. Why. >> think think of the the guy with an. overcoat on hiding behind a tree. >> and then a little kid walks by and they. jump out. >> and open their overcoat. Tree jumper. >> So like that's what they're called here. Like out out west in California they. call them chomos. >> Oh. >> child molester chomos they call them.

But here here in Jersey, New York. they're tree jumpers. And uh sort of you know the guards would. either say kitty toucher or that's a. tree jumper. And uh we would just be. like uh sit down with them at a table. and be like look bro uh we're told. you're a tree jumper and uh you got to. go. You got to hit the button. You could. go over there's a button by the door. >> and you press the button. >> and the guards would be like what do you. want? And you say I want to check in.

Means protective custody. Oh. >> Um, so I did that a couple times. I'm like, look, if we're wrong, I apologize, >> but it's not safe for you to stay here. because that's the word now. And. somebody's going to come after you. >> And and they'd be like, you know, they'd. be like, it's not me, man. I'm not here. for that. I'm not here for that. And. we'd get up and be like, sorry, bro. And.

uh we'd walk away. And within a minute. they'd go over to the button and be. like, "I need protective custody.". >> So you never. wanted to maybe punch one. >> No. No. Like I just I like I I wasn't. there like if and I I I I've said this. like if I got a life sentence. >> maybe. >> then all bets were off, right? you know, but I I wasn't. And my therapist told me. about how many were on my unit cuz she.

didn't want me to do anything stupid. >> She goes, "Don't tell the guys on your. unit what you're here for.". >> Yeah. >> Because it's called putting a battery. pack on your back and amping you up. So. she go like, "If if if the guys know. what you're here for, they're going to. put a battery pack on your back and try. to get you amped up to go do something. stupid." I go, "Nobody's going to make. me do anything I don't want to do." I. go, "They're not putting any battery. pack on my I go." And and and in the. psych exam, you know,

they asked me that like, "How do we know. you're you're not a a risk to harm other. people?" And I'm like, "Unless you were. the person who abused me, I'm not I'm. not out to avenge every pedophile out. there." I go, "Just the one that abused. me.". >> Mhm. >> So, >> what was worse, the mice or the. cockroaches? O. well I was on the top bunk so I didn't. have to necessarily deal with the mice. To me the cockroaches were worse cuz.

they would like fall on you and while. you're trying to sleep. >> Uh. >> wow. >> Do you want to lay down tonight and have. a cockroach fall on you? You scream and. like that was in a place called CRF C R. AF. And that's uh be when you leave the. county jail to go to prison, you have to. go to this place to get classified which. prisons suit you best. >> And it's they they purposely have it as.

a hell hole to like. frighten you from never wanting to come. back into the prison system. And the. guards are frightening and the mice are. frightening and the cockroaches are. frightening and everything's disgusting. in and it's just like you don't want to. go back to craft. Craft was hell. >> I mean, how how is prison in general? But like how bad is bad? I mean, I see. people are flushing their heads in. toilets. for drugs for smoking marijuana.

>> Well, those toilet those toilets are. like the airplane toilets, you know? It's just like sucks. So, if you want to. smoke weed, you put your head in your. toilet and blow it and hit the button. You can, you know, you could always tell. somebody who's smoking weed in their. cell because the button goes, you just. hear the suction sound going and going. and going and going and going, you know. >> So, guards are just walking by and they. just see cellmates with their heads in. the toilets. >> Well, there's usually only one guard on. at a time. >> There's a guard on on the floor and then.

there's, you know, like two guards in a. bubble. >> Uh, and they they have to do they have. to do a walk through like every so. often. So, you know, when when they just. did their walk through, like, "All. right, I got I got two hours now or. whatever it is and or an hour till they. do another one." So, you can smoke your. weed then. Warm weather, vacation plans, backyard.

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prison, but you used a prison pen. Can you. describe what a prison pen is? How. >> they call them security pens, and. they're they're these flexible plastic. tubes with a little thing of ink in. them. It's just, you know, so you can't. stab somebody with it, you know, like. the there everything in a prison is, can. they make a weapon out of this? >> Are there lots of weapons being made? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Like uh I I mean, one of the main things.

they liked where I was at was the uh the. tiles in the shower were were coming. out, so you could like pop a a tile off. and then carve it down into a point, you. know. Um, but most the I didn't see any stabbings. It was just fights. It was fist fights. >> Were you ever involved in any? >> No. No. >> That's so interesting how you were able. to keep to yourself pretty well.

>> Yeah, I didn't have any fights in the uh. county jail. Um, and uh I had I had one. incident in uh prison. We lined up for the shower. and. this big guy and he was not mentally all. there so which you always have to be. cognizant of. He went around everybody. to the front of the line and everybody. started moaning and for whatever reason.

they looked at me like. say something. So I go up to him and I'm. like hey bro we're all waiting in line. You got to you got to wait at the end of. the line. I'm next. I go, come on, man. We're all being. cool. Just, you know, you can't you. can't just cut the line. I'm next. So, now do I want to fight and go to the. hole. over this guy getting in front of the. shower. So, I just said whatever, bro. You know,

like it wasn't wasn't worth me getting. into a fight or going to the hole over a. guy cutting in line of the shower who. has clearly some form of mental illness. >> How bad is the hole? What? What? Have. you been to the hole? Never been in the. hole? >> No. No. >> You've heard of the hole? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Does it seem bad? >> Uh, yeah. >> That was a dumb question. Yeah, that was. fair. Like. >> I mean I was in a suicide cell for 4.

weeks. That's bad. That's like the hole. You get nothing. You get no book, you. know, you get. >> you can't get commissary. Uh it's just. misery. You don't get out. Um. >> how long did it actually feel to you? >> The the suicide one. >> the four weeks. >> Yeah, that was that was long cuz the. suicide cell was right next to the. intake. So people would be coming in. like drugged out off the wall, loud,

screaming, wanting to fight the guards. There there was women that were wanting. to fight the guards, >> spitting on them. >> Uh always commotion. Uh there's other. cells there, so you got guys screaming. all hours of the night. Um, it's cold. It's freezing at times. It was It was. just miserable.

>> So, it did not make you less suicidal. >> It made you more Okay. >> No cells, though. But, you know, but uh. it's it's very tough to kill yourself in. there. So, >> um. >> interesting. >> I was in the right spot. >> as miser miserable as it was cuz early. on that's all I could think about. While. you're there waiting to figure out what. happens, I mean, there's a lot of. discourse on whether or not your charge. should be dropped to manslaughter, there's a lot of back and forth with the. prosecutors, but one of the main things.

that keeps happening is more victims. come forward. >> Yeah. >> I mean, is that kind of a weird feeling? Because on one hand you're happy your. legal case is getting stronger but on. the other hand like it must be very. depressing to know that there's more. like more people more trauma. or did you feel in a sense like maybe we. can in a sense get through it together? Maybe this is some closure for people. What what was that feeling like?

>> Yeah. Well, I mean early on as a kid you. think you're alone. You think you're the. only one. Um. later on. my lawyers like. between the state police, the. prosecutor's office, my office were. taking so many calls about victims. You. know, he even said at times it's hard to. keep up with. Uh. you know that it hurts, but it also.

helps your case. you know, like it. corroborates. what you did wasn't just being uh, you. know, drunk looking for a thrill kill, you know, like some some idiot said. Um, >> yeah, it it's it's it's tough to like. know that you need other people's pain. to come forward to help you, you know? >> But hopefully it would help them to like. speak out because that's the only way.

you can heal is to speak out. You said like some idiot said. >> I had the article for. >> Okay, I'm going to read snippets of this. article, but I do have questions later. because. >> and I don't know if we should use his. name. I don't even want to give them. >> He's deceased. >> Yeah. >> Who? The guy who wrote that. >> Yeah. Ernest is dead. >> Really? >> Yeah. I know. We did share a little. chuckle over that one.

>> Yeah. Okay, read away. >> Wow, that's unbelievable. I'm not supposed to mourn, am I? Wow, you just blew me away with that. Holy. smokes, you guys really did your work. >> His article is crazy. >> Did that? >> Yeah. >> And it's a it's a very intense article. And did you I mean I'm curious to know. if you read it while you were in jail, but it reads, "Dennis Peg was the. kindest, most considerate, and gentlest.

man to ever have graced the earth.". >> I did read it. >> You did read it. >> Yeah. you get the papers. uh in there and uh. I didn't read it at the time cuz I was. in the cell when it was written but uh. it was mailed in to me uh then I read. it. >> It is disgusting that certain low lives. only now are coming out from under a.

rock to bismerch the stellar reputation. of a man who can no longer defend. himself. So, a victim is a low life. >> Did you have any sort of like what was. your reaction when you're reading these. words? I know it wasn't right away, but. >> it hurt like to be. to to see someone. speak so highly about a predator like. you had.

everybody heard rumors. This guy had to. hear rumors, too. But to discount that and build this guy. up as something he wasn't, you can't. little boys and do something good and. just people focus on the good. No, it. you're little boys. Like any good you do. is out the window. >> And yet Ernest wanted to just focus on. the good. Wait, did we talk about who.

wrote this article? Yes, his name is. Ernest and he was very friendly with. Dennis Peg, very close friends and also. his attorney. He also owed Dennis Peg. $12,000. I mean, the things you can find on the. internet are very strange. I don't know. But he he is um since deceased. But I. just I just find it like unthinkable. because even if I had a friend, but all.

these victims are coming for there's no. way that you can write these types of. words. It just doesn't make sense to me. I. >> Yeah. I mean I mean he had to know the. rumors and yet you're going to call me a. low life coming out from under a rock. >> and and you're going to build Dennis Peg. up as this pillar of society like uh I. don't know how you do that. Um. I I don't know how Dennis how Ernest. lived with himself after writing that.

article. Most people, they support you, but are there more. earnests out there? Like, do you see. people writing stuff like this about. you? Have people said things like this. to you? >> No. Just the internet trolls. Like when. I'll do something, you know, uh, you. can't get away from them. Maybe you. don't have them, but. >> No, there's an escape. But I'll I'll get a uh you know just uh.

and and I don't know what joy they get. out of it. Uh like cuz cuz when I when I. do any type of interview I put my heart. and soul in it. Everything can be. corroborated. I'm not lying about. anything. >> People think you're lying. >> Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Like this this. story is BS. Like what is BS? It's. Google my name. like I had to like and. early on I would try to interact with. the internet trolls just to be like tell.

and then you they they vanish you don't. hear from them so I just gave up trying. to uh like why bother. >> but yeah as far as like yes. >> people in my community. >> uh. no I don't I don't hear anything from. like what Ernest wrote back then I don't. I don't see that But it's I mean, okay, I looked up Dennis Peg's obituary. >> Oh, isn't that horrific?

>> Yeah. And I I thought surely it's going. to be a five sentence ordeal where maybe. the family is like, "Okay, he's gone. We're in mourning. He survived by these. people." It's like a one and a half, two. pages. It's talking about his time in. the Boy Scouts. >> extensively. Has anyone in his family reached out to. apologize? Has have they have they said. anything to you? >> No. I I've been asked that like cuz. people are like,

"Did did anybody in the family ever say. I'm sorry?" You know, for what happened. to you by our brother, by our uncle, by. whoever. And uh no, nobody ever reached. out. >> And they were all interviewed by the. prosecutor. >> Mhm. And not one person made mention of. Dennis having a traumatic childhood. It's a it's a falsehood that. those abused become abusers. I had a.

therapist who worked in a uh diagnostic. center for pedals. She said 100% coming. in the door said I was abused as a. child. They would give them all lie detector. tests. 75% failed. when asked, "Were you abused as a. child?" So like they all they all use. that to try to garner sympathy for their. actions instead of just like saying,

"I'm evil.". >> Yeah. >> And I do evil things. >> And so none of his family will really. acknowledge it. But wasn't his nephew a. victim? >> Yeah. Yeah. his great nephew. uh committed suicide after I was. arrested and. he shot himself. And uh everybody I know and I know. people really close uh to him said what. a wonderful kid he was. And yet he took.

his life uh after my arrest. And they. found ual images on Dennis's computer of. the nephew. >> Do you believe that has your arrest like. trigger something? >> Yeah. I mean, just like it opened my. brother's Pandora's box, it probably. opened uh Dylan's Pandora's box as well. >> Ernest writes in the article, "That is.

the definition of a coward that you guys. are only coming out now that Dennis is. dead. That's what they all are. Cowards, plain and simple. Do you feel like what. you did was cowardly in any way? >> No. No. I I went there, like I said, basically on a suicide mission. I was. ready to give my life that night, you. know, like he should have had a handgun. 10 different spots in that house. And as. soon as I opened that front door, I. should have been shot dead.

It's interesting because a lot of people. say that. the worst thing you can do to another. person is take away their life. But is that really true? Cuz it almost. makes it seem like then what you did is. worse than his crime. >> Um yeah. I mean, I I've had people say, you know, like, you murdered. And I'm. like, yeah, I did. And that's why I'm in the.

position I am to advise every other. victim to not follow my path. I did. things wrong. I. I led a self-destructive life. I should. have healed early on. I should have. talked about this early on. And uh. that's one of the main reasons for me. being here on your program is cuz you. have a younger demographic I feel. And. uh that's the age uh I want to reach so.

people. can hear from me that what I did didn't. heal me. Um it just created more. problems, more trauma. I was ready to. kill myself. I was ready to do life in. prison. And you don't have to forfeit. your life because you were abused. You. know, you can heal from it. And I'm. healing now. And I want people to see. that. And I want them to uh to follow my. footsteps now versus how I lived. earlier.

>> But do you feel like Dennis also killed. something in all of his victims? >> Oh, of course. I had a uh a former. lieutenant of uh a a police department. who was a uh professor at Satan Hall and. he equated uh childhood abuse to soul. murder. You murder the soul of that. child. >> Yeah. >> And I agreed with him a thousand% on. that. >> There is this interesting moment where.

Okay. Okay. Well, first of all, your. murder charge, first-degree murder. charge is brought down to manslaughter. So, at some point, the prosecution, they. come around. >> Is that took three years? >> Took three years. >> I had I had that first-degree murder. hanging over my head for three years in. the county jail. There is no such thing. as a speedy trial when it comes to a. murder. and our uh psyche vow from our side.

uh got delayed. and it got presented to the prosecutor. uh just before that three, you know, like a couple months before the. three-year mark. And in that psych. evaluation. is everything laid out like the abuse, the murder, it's not like a who done it. anymore. And between all the uh victims that came. forward and then reading that psych. evaluation, they uh the prosecutor offered me a plea.

deal of seconddegree manslaughter. >> And seconddegree manslaughter carries 5. to 10 versus 30 to life for first-degree. murder. >> Okay, that is another thing that was so. interesting. I feel like a lot of cases. that we work on the psych evaluations. from the defense and the prosecution. It's like reading two different books. from two different planets. Yours we had difficulty being like wait. this is the prosecution's psych. evaluation. This is they're identical.

>> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's amazing. >> Yeah. And and what's really crazy is my. defense came out of the prosecutor's. uh def psyche vow. >> He came out and said, "I feel passion. provocation. fits Clark perfectly." And he explained. why. And passion provocation had never. been used 30 plus years after the fact.

Passion provocation is the husband comes. home and his wife's in bed with the. mailman and he freaks out and kills one. of them or both. That's passion. provocation. >> This was being used 30 plus years after. the initial abuse. And there's four. factors to it and he fit me into all. four factors in the present day and how. it how it fit. So like.

their their side came up with my defense. because we had initially come up with. diminished capacity. >> There is this interesting thing in the. book where they do say the problem. though is that you're a decent human. being. And so they say that's the. problem because now with the. manslaughter charge they're saying that. you will have trouble living with. yourself unless you pay a debt to. society. Do you. >> I'm punished. Do you agree with that? >> Uh.

um. strangely, yeah. Yeah. I I. cuz I've said to people, you know, like. um you know, like some of some of the. trolls, you know, like I'm like I I paid. my debt. Like I I did what I was ordered. to do. And. it gave me time.

to think about life, to redirect my. life, to think about what I want to do with my. life. I needed to be away. from drugs and alcohol. I needed to. bring healing. I needed to confront my. demons. and being locked up. even though I was in hell. Prison is. hell. I was able to do that. >> Oh, I'm so sorry. One thing though I.

will say is I'm going to link it in the. description, but you have this insane. interview with the prosecutor that was. on your case. I thought it was the most. You guys have such interesting. interactions. I'm like, how do you. interact with someone that was trying to. at least at some point. >> make you stay in prison for the rest of. your life? >> Is it like is it a weird dynamic or you. guys are just buds? Like what? >> Um,

actually this morning at the hotel. before I came here to meet you, guess. who I got a text from? >> The prosecutor saying. uh and this is what he said. He goes, "I'm sorry I missed your book signing. I. was in the hospital. Um, please save me an autographed book. >> No, because you have some very. interesting friendships. I mean, you're. friends with a lot of the officers that.

arrested you. >> Yeah. >> You're friends with the lead prosecutor. on your case. >> Yep. >> You're friends with a lot of like the. forensic teams that probably processed. the crime scene. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is interesting. My biggest supporter. >> Yeah. >> through throughout all of this has been. law enforcement. >> That's fascinating. >> Yeah. From the from the very get-go. Um. starting with Howie Ryan at the uh. actually it started on my steps of my.

house when I was arrested. The guy who gave me that. uh state police shirt, he was there. He. told his he was supposed to be getting. off. He heard my name mentioned and he. told his sergeant, "I know that guy. He's a friend of mine. Let me go to the. house in case this goes sideways. I want. to be able to talk to Clark.". And when I was arrested on my front.

steps, he came up to me and he goes and he said. quietly, "Dude, don't say a word.". And. then it went to Howie Ryan at the state. police station. And then in the county. jail, I thought because Dennis Peg. worked there. >> Yeah. >> Because we heard the rumors 30 plus. years ago about him waiting outside. taking inmates home. Nothing ever. happened. >> I thought for sure he was protected. And.

I thought for sure I'd get the beating. of a lifetime in there. And one by one, guards came into the. suicide cell and and said, "Uh. um I never worked with the guy. I'm. hearing what an animal he was. Just hang. in there. Keep your mouth shut. Don't. talk to anybody." And that was like guy. after guy after guy would tell me that. >> I mean, that's so. rare. I mean, you you usually see a lot. of stories of, I guess, the blue wall of.

cops protecting cops. So, this. >> That's what I thought it was going to. happen. >> Yeah. Wow. So, you walk into the courtroom to give. your statement. What What is that like? >> Uh, that was torturous. you know, like I. can sit here with you now and and talk. and and people will comment on, you. know, a few other podcasts I've done. like, "Oh, I don't know how you can talk. so easily about such trauma." Well, you.

want to see my first speech, go, you. know, look at my courtroom speech on. YouTube. It's uh it's horrific. It's. it's I I'm shrinking down, trying to. make myself so small. I'm just wanting. to hide. I can't get words out. I'm like. stuttering. I'm breaking down crying. Uh. sniveling. >> From the time that I was eight years old. until I was 12 years old, I was sexually assaulted and raped by.

Dennis Peg. It started out with him wanting to touch. my scar that I had from open heart. surgery at the age of six. It progressed to wrestling matches. and eventually led to him.

time Dennis Peg was a sheriff's officer, a scout master of troop number 83 in. Stillwater. and a close friend of our family. Dennis Peg told me. that he had sexual relations with a.

close family relative. and also my childhood friend Jeff Hall. He described those relations in detail. and I believed him. told me that he got drunk and naked with. one of my close relatives. and with Jeff.

He said he had taken pictures of them. naked. He showed me Polaroid photographs that. he said he had taken of other young boys. and men on clothes.

Jeff committed suicide on February 10th, 1983. with a shotgun to his head. I was a junior in high school. My brother Jay and I ran to Jeff's house. after his sister Brenda came to our. house covered in blood, crying. hysterically.

I remember standing in the living room. of Jeff's house with my brother. We got there before the authorities. arrived. I saw a puddle of blood on his bathroom. floor. I will always believe that Jeff killed. himself as a result of Dennis Peg's. abuse.

As an all adult, I visited Jeff's grave. at least twice a year. Every Christmas. Eve, I went to visit him. Um, but that's how. confronting your trauma goes early on. It's tough. It's tough the first couple. conversations. People avoid it because. they they want to avoid that, but that's. how you get past it. Um,

so I look at that uh courtroom video as. a stepping stone to to being able to sit. here with you now and talk, you know, fluently about it. But when you're on. your way out of that courtroom, everybody starts clapping. >> Yeah, that was pretty amazing. Um, yeah, it wasn't they weren't clapping. for me murdering a pedophile. They were. they were clapping for me confronting my. trauma finally.

And uh I actually got a standing. ovation, you know, which uh. uh which was pretty amazing. And the the. you know, the guards that took me back. out of the courtroom into the holding. cell. Um, they said to me, "Wow, that was a. first." And I'm like, "What's that?". They're like, "Never have I seen. somebody admit to murdering somebody and. get a standing ovation for it." So, I. was like, and they're and they're like,

"That was some speech you gave. Good. job.". >> Did it make you feel less lonely when. people were clapping? Like, what is the. feeling? Did you did you feel is that. them showing support? Did you feel less. lonely? What was the feeling? >> I think they could all tell how painful. it was to get through what I got. through. Um, >> and when it comes to sentencing,

I mean, it seems like the judge is in a. kind of a tricky situation because it. seems like there's a lot of debate about. what's justice in your case of okay, well, typically justice looks like x. amount of years, but that doesn't really. feel right in this case. But was there. some sort of concern that if they didn't. give you enough time that other people. would start going out and taking justice. into their own hands? Is that like a. huge. >> Well, that was one of the things, yeah, that was mentioned. Um, and my lawyer had me brace myself for.

the high end of the sentencing, >> which was 10 years, correct? >> Yeah. He he goes he goes, I I really. can't see anything less than 8 years. He. goes, you know, I I'd be just brace. yourself for 8 to 10 years. He had put. in a motion to sentence me to 3 to 5. years. if you have never been arrested. Even though I had all those runins with. those three letter uh agencies, I was. never arrested. And uh he he put in a.

motion to have me sentenced to a. thirdderee crime. >> And I had enough time in where had the. judge gone with that, I I would have. been released. But the uh you know so he. he goes you know. all this motion that I'm putting in is. give gives a wider sentencing range. and uh the the judge uh you know he he. took a lot of deliberation and he said a.

lot of things that got me like really. excited and I I I'm thinking of. liberating Mr. Frederick's at this. moment and uh I know Mr. Frederick's. only did what he did because of what was. done to him. And uh then in the end he uh said I'm. I'm not going to go. I'm not going to acknowledge you know. the motion for thirdderee crime. I am. going to sentence you to the minimum 5.

years and I apologize for having to send. you to prison for a single day. Wow. The judge gives me the minimum and. apologizes for giving me the minimum. >> That's such a weird feeling. I It's the. same thing with Howard Ryan apologizing. to you. I mean, I'm. >> Yeah, >> it's kind of I wonder if it's a. confusing feeling. Yeah, that's why I say everybody I think. everybody in law enforcement like look, you know,

a judge isn't supposed to have. excommunication, you know, excommunicado. uh communications outside of the. courtroom with anybody. They're human, you know, so he's going to probably hear. rumors about Dennis Peg as well. >> Yeah. And uh. the prosecutor ran a dual investigation. on what I did and what Dennis Peg had. been up to for his whole life. And it was obvious what Dennis was. doing. Everybody knew. And it it got.

uncovered. And. you know, they don't want to justify. what I did. They still wanted to punish me. And I, you know, at the end of the day, I still had to do five years. It's no. walk in the park. It's still five years. >> And uh, but I had like the perfect. storm. I'm I'm I'm in a little small. town, a little small county. with a monster who had a 45-y year reign.

of terror, who everybody heard something. eventually. >> except maybe Ernest Hemshot, who had his. ears plugged. Everybody heard something. about Dennis Peg and and. at the end of the day, I got the. minimum. I don't think that's gonna. happen to anybody else. It's it's you're. not going to get this type of perfect. storm if you go do what I did. And. that's why and you do not want to try to. heal from abuse in prison. Prison is.

hell. Um I am the rarity. I was able to. do it. I was able to start my healing, you know, getting locked up. But man, don't don't don't don't don't think. you're going to follow my footsteps. Start healing now and instead of like. following me to prison like I did. Uh, you don't want to do that. >> What was the first thing you did when. you got out of prison? >> Uh, very first thing, uh, my niece. picked me up. I'm very close with my.

niece Kim and uh she insisted on picking. me up and we went right to a diner. Um. >> what' you order? >> Oh my god. I had I had eggs, sausage, bacon, pancakes, uh everything, you. know, and just uh. >> Wait, do you not get Okay. What was like. your prison? Like what do you. >> What do you eat in prison? >> Uh this is what in prison the food was. food was tough. Uh, I ate six nights a.

week. I had ramen noodles and mackerel. with hot sauce and honey. >> That's an interesting combination. >> And that was six nights a week. On. Sunday nights, they gave you real. chicken. They gave you a chicken leg. >> Um, so I would eat the chicken. Uh, but. but the other six nights I had ramen. noodles and mackerel. >> Wow. So you go to a diner and you order. everything. >> Yeah. Yeah. and and what I you know. everything uh from jail to prison is.

gluten and I didn't I was in agony my. whole 5 years like doubled over. >> in pain agonizing pain uh because I had. celiac and I didn't know it and and uh I. lived on mocks in Tums for 5 years and. um. so getting out and uh just going to a. diner and getting real food um you Uh. just that was great. >> But after you get out, what happens with.

your brother? >> Yeah. Nobody wanted me I needed a place. to live. >> And uh. my lawyer didn't want me going to my. mother's. My mother didn't want me. coming to my mother's. My niece, my. sister, nobody wanted me going to my. mother's because my brother was there. He got divorced when I was locked up. He. lost his business while I was locked up. He lost his 33 acre. uh horse farm when I was locked up. And.

uh nobody wanted me to uh come home cuz. he was in such bad shape. But I had it. was either that or a uh homeless. shelter. >> So I just said, "Let me just get out of. here and we'll figure things out. afterwards." So I went home with my. brother and mother. >> You suspect that he was a victim of. Dennis Peg. He knows you were, but you. guys never even when you get out of. prison, you don't talk about it. >> No. No. Uh.

my brother didn't want to confront. anything, didn't want to talk about. anything. It's quite often the case, you. know, like members of family won't talk. about what happened. And I thought when. I was in prison, sitting in my prison. cell, I would have these amazing. conversations with my brother when I got. out. And then when I got out and. the shape he was in, the path he was on, it was it was it was difficult. >> Did he do you think he felt guilty that.

he didn't protect you from. >> I'm sure that's part of it also. He he. said numerous times, I should have been. the one that killed Dennis. >> Um he said that over and over to me. Yeah. >> When did you find him? Um it was uh two years ago this past. February. Um. he was uh spiraling. He had gotten sober for 9 months, but he.

was like a dry brush ready to catch. fire. He wasn't doing anything. spiritually, therapywise. I finally got him to go to the gym, start working out. Um, so he eventually started drinking. again. And even on his last day of life, I went to the gym. and I said to the gym owner, "Was my. brother in today?" He goes, "Yeah." He.

goes, "Uh, he wasn't feeling that swift, but he was here.". I said, "Okay, that's a good sign." And. uh I went home and his truck was in the. driveway and I went upstairs and there. he was on the kitchen floor. and. I thought he had killed himself. I. thought he had uh shot himself and I. started screaming at him, "How could. you?" And then I got closer and then.

there, you know, there was no. gunshot wound. And um I called 911. and I started CPR. and I did CPR until the uh ambulance got. there. Um CPR is exhausting and it was. uh it took every ounce of me to keep. going uh until they arrived and then.

they worked on him for an hour, but he. was long he was long gone by the time I. found him. Do you think Dennis Peg killed your. brother? >> Yes. Yep. And uh. there's been times where I wish I could. resurrect Dennis. after my brother's death. >> Why? >> To do it all over again.

My next door neighbor Jeff, who was like. a brother to me, put a shotgun in his. mouth at age 23 and blew his head off. and my brother and I found him in his. house. Then, so not only do I find Jeff, then I. have to find my brother. And I blame. Dennis for both of her deaths. >> I do, too. Yeah.

>> So, since prison, since you killed. Dennis, you haven't Have you drank? Have. you done drugs? >> Nope. Uh, this uh this past June, I. celebrated 13 years sober. >> Wow. Was it hard? Was. >> The first two years were in in jail. And uh therapists will tell you 18 to 30. months it takes for your brain to rewire. itself from the pleasure chemicals of.

drugs and alcohol. And during those. first two years here I'm facing life in. prison. and I'm saying to myself, I cannot wait to see if I get out from. under this life sentence so I can have a. glass of red wine and a line of co cuz. they went perfect together. And I would. say that to guys on the tier that I was. friends with. I' be like, "Man, I can't. wait to do a line of Coke with a glass. of red wine." And then some year,

sometime after that second year, it just like it just like like a a light. just like hit me like a meteorite came. into my being and I was like, "Are you. out of your mind?" Like you can never go. back to that. I can never go back to living like the. animal I was. like. >> like those that died that night with. Dennis living that way and I snapped out.

of it and. that was it. >> Wow. And no gambling, nothing. >> No. No. >> Instead, it seems like you've been very. busy um changing laws. >> What happened in New Jersey? What's. going on there? There was advocates working for 15 to 20. years to get a new statute of. limitations law. What statute of. limitations law allows is for victims of. sexual abuse to sue their abuser or the.

organization that harbored their abuser. We had the worst law in the country. Our. law stated in New Jersey that at age 18, when you officially became an adult, you. had 2 years to file a lawsuit. So if you. got sexually abused at at 8 10 12 15, you're going to come forward at 18 to. file a lawsuit. It basically was a dead. law. Like like nobody's going to do. that. >> So our statistics said that people don't. talk about their abuse until age 48 to.

52 is the norm. So, we championed a law that took the. age up to 55. And what was really holding it up is we. wanted a 2-year open window. where when the law went into effect, a. 2-year clock started ticking where. anyone, no matter what age, the law went. up to 55, but in that two-year window, you could be 85, 75, 65, and come.

forward and file a lawsuit. And. the Catholic Church were the ones. fighting that law. At every hearing, their lawyers were there opposing the. law, saying it would bankrupt the. Catholic Church. They literally said, "Your sons and daughters parochial. school will go out of business if this. law is passed.". >> I mean, how do people maintain any court. decorum? in that situation. I mean, it.

makes you want to scream in the. courtroom. >> Yeah, it it was uh. ah. the Cath the Catholic Church is it. really gets me wound up. Uh and it's not. to do with your faith. It's to do with. the hierarchy and the way it's run and. what they've allowed. And they've. harbored their priests to keep them from. facing justice. and they're sending. their lawyers to stop a law to help. victims. And yet they come out and say,

"We're all for victims." No, you're not. You're not. >> And so you spearhead that. What What is. it in New Jersey now? >> The law uh we got it passed finally. unanimously. I worked for two years a as. an advocate. Goodness. >> Um. >> I had a lawyer say, "You know, your your. story is so over the top. maybe you can. use it to sway some of the senators that. are holding up the law. And uh that's. what we did. We started meeting with. senators and uh two years later it went.

up for vote and it passed unanimously. and we went from the worst law in the. country to the strongest law. So, you know, victims have up until age 55. to come forward. So, it gives them. plenty of time to heal. And that. two-year window did happen. it went into. effect and uh um you know it's something. like if you pull me back when I have a. mob hit on me you know that I'm going to. work as an advocate.

and and change laws I'd be like really. yeah you think so uh I think you're. delusional uh Steph but uh but that's. exactly what happened and myself and. every other advocate that worked on that. law uh can go to their grave you know. like knowing We accomplished something. great. >> Have you been to Dennis Peg's grave? >> No. >> Okay. >> No. I know. >> Yeah. >> A. couple people who reached out to me and.

sent me private messages on Facebook. saying they visited it. >> Oh, we had half a mind to go and spit. on. >> They did something a little worse. >> Oh my god. You're like, they did it. >> Yeah, they they they got it covered for. all of us. >> And people, you know, everybody's just. listening and be like, "Oh, you you're. talking bad. You really did that to. somebody's." The guy was a monster. He.

wasn't a human. I've said that over. I. can't stress enough. A literal devil. The devil. This is what. more could you. stereotype the devil as than what this. guy was? >> Yeah, but there's no salvation for. someone like that. >> You guys know that we have been huge. fans of Shopify ever since we opened. Grandpa Mingo Studio to sell his limited.

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Where are you going with this stuff? I. don't even know. >> You helped someone write a love letter. >> I helped a Spanish guy who was facing 10. years and he had an English girlfriend. and he did not have command of the. English language and he asked me would I. write a love letter to his girlfriend. about you know how much he loved her and. please wait for him and he'll be back.

Did it work? >> Uh, I don't know. He got shipped off to. prison and that's the last I ever saw of. him. So, I don't. >> In my mind, it works. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, no. I I wrote letters for guys to their. lawyers, to their public defenders, to. the judge, and to their family members, you know. Uh, I felt I needed to do. stuff for other people to make myself. feel better in that situation. just like. I I needed to do good things cuz I was.

in such a dark spot when I was locked. up. So I I constantly did that. >> So you never wrote a letter to like a. college sweetheart? >> Nope. >> Did you think about it? >> Um I did and I thought I'll never get to. see Lisa again. I'll never get that. chance, you know, to ride off into the. sunset, swoop her up off her feet. Especially early on when I was facing. life for those three years, and then I.

never heard from her. and I'm like, "All right, well, that's. that.". >> I mean, how often did you think about. your college sweetheart? >> I thought about her my whole life. Like, she was inside my skull scratching. like. literally like tormenting me. Clarky, why clarky? Why? Why could you not. commit to me? >> And uh just the shame of that, you know, like victims love to just shame.

themselves. So that would add shame to. my shame. >> And then doing drugs would add shame to. my shame. And and getting involved with. the mob would add shame to my shame. And. not being able to tell my father would. add shame to my sh. It's like we're just. constantly shaming ourselves and uh so. Lisa was just another source of uh shame. and uh so no I never uh I thought I. thought I missed my uh chance and.

after that law passed that the law took. up a lot of time I'm working I was. working full-time I was speaking you. know I started motivational speaking. >> and then when the law passed I'm like. what now. and I I was working as a chef, assistant. chef at a busy restaurant. I'm driving. home late at night one night and I'm. like, I either want to get a pitbull or a. girlfriend. >> Wait, this is a crazy multiple choice.

>> So, pit bull, girlfriend, pit bull, girlfriend. And uh I'm like, it's not fair to any girl. I get involved with if I'm still. thinking about Lisa. >> So, you never stop thinking about Lisa. >> I never did. And I'm like, to get into a. new relationship, to get into any. relationship, I've got to I've got to. confront Lisa.

I found her on Facebook and I drafted up. a long Facebook message and I deleted it. and I drafted up another message. and my thumb hung over the send button. and I debated is it better to keep the. fantasy. maybe I'm just making it up in my mind. how amazing our love was and how. passionate we were for each other. Maybe.

like time has made me delusional and it. wasn't really all it all I think it is. >> cuz you hadn't seen her since you were. 20. >> I was probably 23 and she was 22. >> And how old were you at this point? >> When I got released I'm 50 years old and. then I worked on the law for a couple. years. >> So now I'm like 52. 53. >> Wow. Okay. And now you're like I don't. know. But you send it, right? So, do you.

do you keep the fantasy alive and not. send it or you pull up your big boy. pants and say, "Let's see what the. hell's going to happen here." And you. send it. You got to send it, Steph. You. You You got to take chances. So, I sent. it out. >> Yeah. >> And I was literally like a crackhead. waiting for his dealer to call him back. Like, I checked my phone. Check my. phone. I'm at work. I had to check my. phone a hundred times. >> Oh my gosh. >> And I'm like, knew I shouldn't have sent. it. >> Mhm. And then she replied.

and then I replied and then she replied. and I replied and she replied. >> Was it awkward? Was it. >> No, it instantly. started to flow. She thought I couldn't. commit to her all those years ago. because I didn't love her. >> And that wasn't the case. I explained. that to her and I explained it was. because of all the pain I was harboring. inside and I just couldn't be intimate. with somebody. >> Yeah. And. >> has she heard about what happened at.

all? >> Yeah, like I said, uh my one roommate. and her one roommate ended up married. >> Oh, yeah. >> And her roommate reached out to her and. filled her in. >> She had written me three letters, I. believe, when I was locked up. And she. ended up uh ripping them up because she. just wasn't ready to open that door. again. She just couldn't let herself. feel vulnerable at that moment. >> Yeah. >> Now that I was released, she allowed.

herself to be vulnerable and opened up. And I said, "Why don't we meet for. coffee?" She was in New York. I was in. New Jersey. Again, she's still thinking I didn't. love her. I'm telling her I did. She's. not really believing me. So, I brought. ammunition with me to that first coffee. meeting to prove to her that I did in. fact love her.

>> What was that? >> She had written me a lot of love letters. and cards. back in the day and I had saved them. And over the years, whenever I would. start lamenting her, I would get out. these love letters and reread them and. feel connected. Whenever. I would feel a a gap between us forming, I would get her love letters out and.

reread them and get that bond back. together. and I brought a briefcase with me to the. uh. to the coffee shop and she said, "Do you. always bring a briefcase with you when. you have coffee?" And I said, "Uh, there's something inside there I. want you to see that will show you that. I loved you.". and I opened it up and I took out all.

the uh love letters from when she was 21. years old and 20 years old and 22 years. old. And uh we sat there rereading them. and uh that sort of sealed the deal when. I told her this is how I stayed. connected with you over those 30 uh plus. years. >> And you didn't really talk to her during. those 30 years. No, there was there was. not one word. Not nothing between us. >> You just read these letters.

>> Yeah. >> Wow. >> And stayed connected that way with her. >> Wow. Did it feel weird? I mean, I'm sure you. guys look different from when you're 20. or did it feel like nothing changed? >> She kept saying to me, "We've led two totally different lives. We're two totally different people. you know, uh, we're not the same we were. back then. >> And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just let's.

go have a coffee." And, uh, by the end. of that coffee, it was it was back on. >> Okay. So, you have a few letters. You're. saying some of them are too. risk risque for us to read out loud, right? Um, I don't want to embarrass. Lisa, but I think this one from July of.

1989. Can you believe that? >> 1989. >> Should we bring out the author of this. letter? [Applause]. >> Come on. Come here. Author, >> please don't read them. [Music].

First of all, you look phenomen. I read about their love story in the. book and I'm the number one fan. I call. you guys Lark, which is the ship name, which is when you combine Lisa and. Clark. >> Hello, Lisa. >> Okay. I mean, you have to tell me what.

was your what was it like seeing him at. that coffee shop and the brief? What did. you think was in the briefcase? >> I didn't know was in the briefcase. I. mean, first of all, seeing him after. like three decades. >> Mhm. >> It was unbelievable. The two weeks that. we were in communication with each. other, it was we were kind of getting to. know each other again, but we always. would banter back and forth and and. tease each other and we always had a. very playful relationship. So, it was. kind of we got back into that rhythm.

>> Yeah. >> We actually didn't have a phone. conversation until we saw each other. So, it was kind of like we hadn't spoken. on the phone yet. >> Oh my goodness. >> And we met for coffee and I was so. nervous. I remember I was like, "Okay, I. don't want to seem too anxious or too. interested or or whatever." I didn't. know what was going to happen. He had. led this crazy life. So, there was a. part of me that was a little nervous.

like who is this person? Is he the same. person I remember from college years? Um, but I just felt this burning desire. to explore it and to to see him and. I was so impressed with what he was. doing with his life from where he was. and where he w where he is now that day. when we were meeting and all the good. things he was doing, helping to change. the statute of limitations law in New. Jersey, being an advocate, speaking out,

um, getting other people to speak out. I. was truly inspired by him. So, I was I. said I have to at least meet him for. coffee. Even if we just have a. friendship, like I just felt like this. was something I just needed to do at. this point in my life. >> Did you think about him as often as he. thought about you? >> I probably not. Sorry. I mean, I was so busy living my life, you know. Um I was growing a business.

Uh I had children. I was married to. somebody else uh for 20 years. Uh the. marriage was deteriorating and um but at. the same time. um I did think about him because I felt. like he was that one person. I think. everyone has that one person that their. first love and that person that there. was never. any sort of closure with Clark.

when the relationship ended, I still. loved him and I didn't understand why we. didn't work. And the connection was. definitely unlike any other connection I. had had, even, you know, my marriage. So, I just felt like. I just I had to do it. I just didn't. want to spend my life regretting not. seeing him, not talking to him. So. Stephanie read the book and was telling. me about how Clark was saying that you. were this force of nature when when you.

guys first. >> Yes. >> The first time you guys met it was in. the library and then you just plop down. and start it was the L center which was. the student center at Nor Eastern. >> So can you tell us your point of view? Uh, so when I when I walked in, I mean, first of all, I was a freshman, he was a. sophomore, >> and I I grew up in a house. I I'm one of. three girls. I was the middle daughter, and I was the more of the rebellious.

person. And my parents were like just. always I had all these rules, you know, that I had to follow. And my when I went. away to college, it was like I felt like. I was just being let out of a cage, you. know. My parents were very strict. So I. just felt like when I was when I was in. college and that was actually I met. Clark I think it was my the first. semester that I was there. So it was the. fall and I just felt free. Um, and I. just walked into the L Center and I saw. this young guy.

sitting and he looked so lonely because. he was sitting at like there was like a. round table and four chairs and he was. like alone except there was just he was. in one chair and there were three empty. chairs and I was like, "All right, maybe. I'll just sit down and say hello." And I. just was I just did. And he looked at me. and like his eyes, his blue eyes just. captivated me immediately. But he was. really quiet and I was like blah blah.

blah blah blah blah blah just talking. all about myself and I don't think he. really knew what to say and I don't know. if he'd ever met anyone quite like me. So. from his little town of Stillwater. Um, so yeah, I was just I just kind of. talked talked tal t talk t talk t talk t. talk t talk t talk t talk t talk t talk. t talk t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t. t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t t. t t talked, and then I finally paused. and said, "And do you ever talk?". >> He did. >> So this is so funny cuz in his book he.

writes that he was just trying to focus. on school work and he says like, "No, he. looked lonely so I needed to. >> I felt like I needed to to just talk to. him and Yeah. >> And that was our first meeting. you. know, and uh it was it was intense right. from the start. I feel like he invited. me to a party he was having that weekend. uh at his apartment and I got there and. I was just looking for him and we shared. our first kiss that night. >> I was 18 actually when we met. So, it.

was a very long time ago. >> And uh Nor Eastern was a co-op program, so we were kind of coming and going. There were not cell phones at the time. And so like. >> just connecting and reconnecting with. different semesters uh you know was. interesting but we always seemed to find. each other. >> Um so. >> do you guys still have the same dynamic. where you're the one that's like talking. his ear off or he's now the talker. I. don't know if you can sense from the. intro.

>> No I I love I absolutely love talking to. him. when we reconnected, >> it was like getting to know him all over. again, but he was a different person. >> now. >> When I mean this was six years ago, but. it he was a different person than when I. knew him back in college. I mean, he was. a free person. >> Free from prison and also free from, you. know, his his secrets. >> Yeah. and he had healed and he was. evolved and it was like our relationship.

was a million times better because we. were both in a different place in our. lives and the timing was right for both. of us. >> You guys have a very um interesting. energy. I've never experienced this. before where you meet a couple and you. feel like you are the side character in. a romance novel and you're like, "Oh, I'm just a side character." It's. actually not my main love story. You.

guys have such fascinating and you're. getting shy. Are you guys scared? I'm. getting shy. You guys are so. fascinating. I. >> I'm watching. smile. You're smiling more than you. >> I think it's cuz um I feel like we have. maybe a similar dynamic where I we call. it yapping. >> So I yap to him, not with him. >> When the cops came to arrest you, they. searched your room and they found your. love letters.

>> Yeah. Well, when they when they. >> Yeah. >> come to your house, they like trash it, you know? They they dumped every drawer. out, tore the bedding apart, the closet, everything was out. I I had two cedar. cabinet desks and you know just. everything is dumped out. And my mother. went to like try to put everything back. together in this room and she came. across letters addressed from Lisa.

and saw the postmark from 1989, 1990, 1991 and she said, "What has Clark held. on to these for for so long? These have. to be as valuable as gold to him. So, I. got to put these in a safe place. So, my. mother went through my mess, scooped up. my love letters, and held them for me. until I got released. And then she's. like, I found these straightening out.

your room. Why have you kept all these. letters? And I'm like, that's how I. stayed connected with Lisa, mom, over. the over the years. >> Do you think your mom knew all along? >> Yeah, I I would I would tell my mom. I. would cry to my mom, you know, not not. every year. Maybe it would, you know, like. maybe after after the mob threatening my. life and having the FBI come say there's. a hit put on you, maybe I. sat with my mom then and said like, "Man, I've really allowed life to get.

away from me. I wish I wish I had never. lost Lisa, you know, and and and cried. with her over that." But her and I had. talks over the years about Lisa. when. Lisa would come and visit um like she. would get up early and and go sit on my. parents' bed as they're both still in. bed, my father and mother, and have. these long talks as they're still lying. in bed like and they just loved her. Like, >> wait, could you read us a snippet of the. letter you wrote him?

>> Sure. Have you read this since? Like. >> so when I when he first showed me the. letters and I started to read them in. the coffee shop, I started hysterically. laughing. >> because. reading a letter that you wrote 30 years. ago at that point in your life where. you're just all hormones, you know, you're like 18, 19, just discovering. love. So this letter she she got for me. It says, "For yesterday's memories,

today's love, and tomorrow's dreams, I. love you.". >> Do we know what part you can read? >> Yeah. Oh boy. So this was written July. 16th, 1989. >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. And Yeah. I mean, when I when he. had these letters, it just I realized. that this is true. You just never could. believe someone would be thinking about. you for 30 years. But when they take. your letters out of a briefcase and show.

them to you, you're like, they really. were thinking about me all this time. Like no one holds on to letters for 30. years unless that person really. >> meant something incredibly deep to them. So it made it real for me seeing the. letters. So all right, here we go. Dearest Clark, we've shared so many memories together, both good and not so good ones. Um, I like to remember the good ones.

because they're the ones that stick out. in my mind. The time that we drank wine at Ed Burks. was an early memory, but one that for. some reason always sticks out in my. mind. The next sentence we'll skip. >> I don't know. All right. >> I think knowing that you would go to all. lengths to satisfy me really intrigued. me. >> All right, that's as risque as we're. getting.

Oh, I often think about the quiet times. we've spent together, just staring into. each other's eyes across a dinner table. when we were out or when we were in bed. together holding each other. I see. something so caring and wonderful about. the way you look at me that somehow. makes me shake. during times like that. Nothing needs to. be said because I know what you're. saying to me with your eyes.

Those romantic times were great, but the. wild and crazy times were great as well. Skip the next sentence. Oh my gosh, where am I up to? All. >> you guys are getting lost in the n. sentences. >> All of these times that we've shared. have become cherished thoughts that are. embedded in my head and my heart. I. don't exactly know at what point I. actually fell in love with you. I just.

know that at this point, each day I. spend without you is a torment. Every time I get off the phone with you, I feel alone again. I get through each. day with the thought that one day soon. we will be together and I won't have to. ever feel lonely again. Those are my dreams for our tomorrow. I. miss you so much right now that I hurt. I need you, Lisa. So, yeah, that's Yeah. So imagine.

reading that letter 30 years later and. feeling all those emotions that you. felt. >> Yeah. >> It's was incredible and it's still. incredible. >> And you kept those letters in pristine. condition. >> in their envelopes. >> But this is how we communicated, you. know, because we didn't have cell. phones. So we wrote I wrote him lots of. letters. >> and he kept them all. >> So what do you guys do now for fun.

together? take. >> what we really cherish is is Sundays and. Monday mornings we have together to have. coffee. >> It's our it's our time together. >> Love having coffee together. >> We just like to explore different places. to walk and we take our walks and we. cook together which we love to do. Clark's an incredible cook. We like. listening to podcasts. >> watching movies. Yes. >> Do you watch all of his podcasts? >> I do. I do. And I I do and I I try to.

give him constructive criticism. I think. his platform is so important. No. >> And I want him to grow and I think he's. doing such meaningful work. >> and he continues to inspire me ever. since we reconnected. I'm just I tell. him he's a constant source of. inspiration for me. >> Yeah. >> Lisa made the comment one one time um. it doesn't matter what we do as long as. we're together. Yeah. >> So, the day before we flew down to do. your show, uh, my mother was in the.

hospital, so we had to go pick her up. from the hospital. It took a while, you. know, to get her discharged. Drove her home, got her home, and the same thing we just. took her from the hospital for happened. again. And we had to turn around and. drive her back to the hospital. and we met my sister there and we were. there a while and so it was a really.

long day and then eventually we had to. leave my mother there. and driving home that night I said to. her I go you know you made the comment. one time uh it doesn't matter what we're. doing as long as we're together so I I. hope that holds true for today as well. and she's like of course it does. >> yeah so. >> we're a team for Sure. And I think. that's when you know you're with the. right person cuz it's not it doesn't. feel like a chore to do that. You just.

want to be there for them. But I is Is. your mother okay? >> She's home now. Uh yeah. Um she's got a. uh some medical issues. Uh we got to get. straightened out, but she's home right. now. >> And Clark and his sister are such a. great team. Like they come together to. and they take turns and help. And she's. 96, his mom. >> So, >> March 31st, she'll be 96. >> Yeah, she's turning 96 this month.

>> Oh my. >> Yeah. >> Is she happy that you two are back. together? >> She's one of my biggest fans. She call. She calls me Lisa, my love, just like. Clark. >> Oh my goodness. >> I'm so happy you're back in Clark's. life. I always knew that you were the. one. You were so special. She said, "I'm just so happy that you're. here.". >> I feel like moms know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Stop. Okay. I Lisa, we need a podcast. episode on Clark's podcast of you, which.

I'm going to link in the description. along with his book. And I would be. obsessed if you guys filmed Tik Toks. together. I don't know. I just want to. know more about your life. I'm obsessed. to the point where I genuinely feel like. I'm a side character in a romcom at this. point. Like it's you guys have some. intense chemistry. I can only imagine. those letters. >> Yes. >> Can I ask a final question? >> Yes. >> Uh Clark, I know you commented that.

there are seasons to life. >> Yes. >> What would you say what season you're in. right now? >> I would say, you know, and I I tell people this. because there's so many times I thought. of giving up. Uh, but I always retained. a little glimmer of hope. and you know, so there's like cold, dark. winters where nothing's going right in. your life. You got the FBI telling you.

there's a hit. You've just committed. murder. You're a drug addict. You're in. prison. Uh, those are all cold, dark. winters. You're getting sexually. assaulted and animals being beaten in. front of you. Cold, dark winter. And uh I tell people don't ever lose. hope that uh sunshine. awaits you and opportunity awaits you. And I would say.

in the spring is when you plant. Um I would say I'm. just starting to harvest. So I'm I'm in. that spring to summer mode. I'm not in. the full fullblown summer of harvesting. yet. Uh it's been a long road to get to. this point. Uh that book has taken 10. years. I wrote that in prison 10 years. ago. Uh so for people that want to lose.

hope, like my book took 10 years. Like. don't lose hope. Opportunity awaits you. around the corner. It's not going to be. tomorrow sometimes. Uh but it definitely. awaits. And uh this book will instill. hope in you and and inspiration. That's. what I It wasn't written to be a trauma. dump. It was written to give people hope. that anything is possible. Like I'm. living proof that literally anything is. possible. >> Yeah. And you're reunited with.

>> And I get the girl back at the end. Like. like it's it should be a movie. Like my. life literally has been a movie. >> Yeah. No, they need a movie. I need a. movie. You guys are incredible. Please. keep us updated. Not even just us, but. like our audience on everything you guys. are going to do. >> All right, >> Lisa, please. You're going to keep us. up. >> I'm going to start doing some taking. some classes about Tik Tok like. tomorrow, maybe on the plane home. You. never know.

>> And I am going to leave all of the links. in the description. Thank you guys for. joining. >> Thank you so much, Stephanie. Thank you. >> You guys were amazing. Amazing to us. [Music].