We Sat Down W/ Someone Who Went To The Same Jail As Diddy & Luigi - The Truth About MDC Brooklyn

[Music]. Bada bing, bada boom. >> A few months ago, a video starts going. viral of a man named Michael who states. that he was booked into the MDC Brooklyn. facility and he was placed in the same. unit as Luigi Manion. Michael is like a. young guy, I want to say in his 20s, and. he very interestingly says in this now. viral video that the cos, the. correctional officers, they want to put. you with your type of people. So they.

immediately ask him when he's getting. booked like, "What gang are you in?". They just like assume he's in a gang, which is very bold of them to assume, but nevertheless, Michael is telling. them, "Put me with the Italians." And. they're like, "We don't have Italians, but we have a guy named Luigi." So. they're like, "You're going to go with. Luigi." And he thought it was like a. whole joke. He thought he's going with. like some random guy named Luigi who. just happens to be Italian. He was. recently booked into Brooklyn MDC. So he. knows about the Luigi Manion case. And. so as he's getting booked, he realized.

he's going to be put in the same cell as. Luigi Manion. Now, this is his story. from his perspective. There's no way to. like fact check or verify that any of. this actually happened in the facility, but this is what he says happened. He. says that as he's going into the cell to. put his stuff away, Luigi is just. standing there. Like he turns around, Luigi Manion is just standing there and. he's just all very nice like, "Hey, how. are you?" Michael said that Luigi is. very nice. He introduces himself.

Michael shakes his hand and says, "Yo, it's an honor to meet you." And at this. point, Michael's got another friend, another inmate that he's kind of known, and he's standing right next to him, and. he's telling Michael, "Don't say no. goofy [ __ ] like that ever again. Don't. be saying that in jail." Like, you can't. get away with stuff like that. But. here's where it's fascinating. Michael. says he was asking Luigi of like, "Oh my. god, like, are you being treated like a. hero in here?" Because that's what. people were saying outside. They're. like, "Oh, when Luigi goes to prison, at.

least he will be treated like a hero.". That's what a lot of his supporters were. saying. or they hope that the inmates. are treating him well. They hope that. he's maybe higher on the jail hierarchy. And Luigi states that Michael is. actually one of the very few people that. even well Luigi allegedly states that. Michael is one of the few people that. even knew him coming into this unit. So. Michael is like what are you talking. about? Everyone knows you like your face. is a model for Shien. Um he didn't say. that but you get the vibe. He's like.

what do you mean? So it is explained. that MDC is kind of like a transition. gel meaning people are coming in and out. for court hearings from other facilities. and they have not been out in a very. long time. So these people they haven't. been keeping up with the news. They. haven't been free for a very long time. So they don't really know what's. happening or these people are fighting. their own federal cases and they don't. really care about anything that's. happening outside of their own federal.

case. They don't have the capacity to. care about anything else. And so lots of. people that support Luigi Manion have. been just flooding Michael in the. comments asking him how is he doing? Is. he working in like what what does he. spend his time doing? And which he says. that he spends most of his time like he. always just has like a giant stack of. letters next to him. And all day he's. just responding to letters. That's. pretty much all he does. And he's. working in the jail so he cleans the. showers every morning. Michael was at. MDC Brooklyn for a few days with Luigi. before making bail. and he said that he.

ate lunch pretty much every day with. Luigi apparently and uh one of his other. friends and quote another white kid they. called Charles Manson. So I guess that. was his nickname. A lot of netizens when. this video goes viral, their initial. confusion was exactly what you expect. from the internet because Michael is. young and one would say conventionally. attractive. And so all of the comments. are writing, is this the bad [ __ ] cell. block? What's happening? Other comments.

are saying MDC got a dating app we. should be downloading or others are. saying what is MDC hotkey guy jail. So, um, you know, people are saying it's two. for two, but lest we forget, SPF, Diddy. are also held at MDC, so I don't know. what you have to say about that, but a. lot of people were making a lot of jokes. about this. And I was so intrigued. because a big topic of conversation. surrounding Luigi Manion because there. has not been many updates outside of his. court hearings and outside of everything. that's been going on legally of how he.

has been. And I know that there are lots. of people that are intrigued to. understand what it's like in MDC. And I. always think it's important when people. are interested in a topic to maybe even. dive deep to even further explore that. topic. So like right now if people are. interested in MDC Brooklyn, it could. also be a time for people to like. suddenly dip their toes into oh maybe. prison reform, like maybe talk about the. prison system. So it's very interesting. and we reached out to Michael to see if. we could get an interview with him.

because you know he said that he shared. a cell with Luigi. Um there's just like. a lot going on. And I believe he is. facing his own federal indictment right. now. So there's a lot that cannot be. said. I think that his Twitter was taken. down. I think there was like subsequent. drama on Twitter. There was just a lot. happening and occurring. And I did not. go too deep into the rabbit hole. But I. was also talking to this man named Brad. cuz Brad was also held at MDC Brooklyn. for quite some time.

the way that he was able to describe. everything at MDC with such precision. but also so much interesting perspective. because he's not just coming from the. perspective of like [ __ ] jail like I. hate everything about jail which. honestly I don't think would be. incorrect from anyone who has. experienced jail to say but he just had. a lot of interesting stories and. perspectives to share that I thought. were if anything enlightening intriguing. but also kind of refreshing in the sense.

of like I had not heard a lot of this. prior. And I did see a lot of people on. Luigi subreddits posting some articles. that Brad had been writing about MDC. Brooklyn. And so we had reached out to. Brad and I was really excited because. he's based in New York and we were going. to be in New York for the Luigi Manion. hearing for New York State Court and we. had set up this interview and then um. everything went a little crazy while we. were in New York and the timing was just.

really hectic with interviewing Brad and. um. I'm laughing because it's just like the. most ridiculous thing ever. I almost had. to cancel and I really did not want to. cancel on Brad because I felt like. everything that he would share would be. so enlightening. Not to just people who. are intrigued by Luigi Manion's case, but intrigued just in general about what. happens in jail in MDC Brooklyn, which. we've talked about non-stop because. there's so many high-profile inmates. And like 5 hours before I was like, I. asked my husband if he could just do the.

interview himself. This man has never. done an interview. This man has only. ever heard me yap to him. He is not a. yapper himself. And um he went he. interviewed Brad and he was like I was. nervous. Everybody was nervous. But Brad. just shared so many fascinating stories. So that is going to be today's episode, an interview with a former inmate at MDC. Brooklyn that my husband did. But just a.

few things. Um Brad was at MDC Brooklyn. way prior to Luigi and so it's not like. the timeline does not line up. It's not. like oh I saw Luigi. It it's not like. that. Um and there's just lots of. different sections of MDC Brooklyn and. so everybody kind of has a different. experience coming out of MDC Brooklyn. I. think it's also personality based and. who you're with when you're in MDC. Brooklyn, which section you're in at MDC. Brooklyn, what crimes have been. committed. So there's just a lot of. different variables. But I thought that. this was one of the most fascinating MDC.

Brooklyn interviews that I had seen. And. I was like scouring the internet to see. what was out there. This interview is. going to tell you how they have. girlfriends that they like shout through. the vents and like how they find lovers. in jail, if you will, and what it means. when a correctional officer will roll in. a TV away from the cameras and start. playing an X-rated video like that. It's. just stuff that I haven't even seen on. Reddit is going to be covered in this.

interview. And I'm also going to leave. all of Brad's links in the description. So, with that being said, let's get. started. [Music]. So tell us about your arrest and your.

first day at the MDC. >> So my first day at MDC Brooklyn was uh. the day after Labor Day. Federal agents. came to my apartment. I'd been uh using. drugs. Uh my friends and I had been. pooling our money, getting drugs over. FedEx. We'd broken the drug laws. It was. a conspiracy. and a friend of mine wore. a wire into my apartment. Then a couple. hours later, federal agents came. knocking at my door. They burst through. It was very dramatic. And at that point, I've been abusing drugs and active.

addiction. Had been up for like almost 3. days at that point. And I was running a. fever because I had a pretty bad. infection. So, I was very disoriented. And they come through, they sort of take. me down in my kitchen. And the main guy. um who was sort of in charge of me and. he's laughing and he had a great blast. and uh he loved arresting people I think. and and a bunch of other guys come in. and they start tearing through my. apartment you know the drawers opening.

furniture kind of tipping down rooting. around looking for illegal drugs which I. did have in my apartment and they were. taking pictures so I was sort of down in. my kitchen and I heard them in my. bedroom and I heard the flashing. I think they handcuffed me and then when. they had found enough drugs to uh to um. to arrest me, they asked me to take off. my shoelaces and they walked me down the.

stairs down the stairs out of my. building in handcuffs into my. neighborhood. >> Why did they ask you to take off your. shoelaces? >> Oh, well, you don't want any shoelaces. or belts on somebody because you might. do self harm. I think probably it's part. of their policy because people use those. sort of things to hurt themselves. >> Oh wow. >> So I think that's just their policy. >> How did they get into the apartment? >> Well, they they were banging banging. banging banging bang banging saying. please please and I did open the door. which may have been a mistake because.

later they said that I invited them in. which I didn't but I think technically I. invited them in because I did comply and. open the door when they knocked. M. >> So they they throw you in the car. >> Well, they put me in the car. I wouldn't. say throw. I mean, they were I mean, once I had basically submitted, they. were mostly uh behaved. They were. professional. I'll say they were both. professional. And we went to St. Vincent's Hospital. We had sort of like. a medical evaluation cuz I looked.

terrible. I've been up for a while. And. they take me to the the the uh waiting. room and they're like, "Da, DA." And one. actually one of my boss's old friends. like stood up and then staring at me as. I walked by. So it was a pretty like it. was pretty grim. I was pretty shocked by. that point. I was definitely in shock. They take me there. A doctor sort of. signed off that I was healthy enough to. be incarcerated. And then they took me. to courthouse and I waited in the. bullpen at 500 Pearl Street. Had an.

arraignment, took me out. I mean it's. getting to be a blur. Then they shackled. me hands and feet with a bunch of the. other guys at the end of the day, end of. the business day when the court business. was over and they took all of us out to. MDC Brooklyn. So I was shackled hands. and feet then hooked to the chains of. the other guys and we sort of shuffled. out into the van to go from uh lower. Manhattan out to Brooklyn, Sunset Park, Brooklyn, where the federal detention.

facility, the MDC Brooklyn is. And at. this point, I was really in bad shape. You know, I'm starting to go through. withdrawals because I was pretty hooked. on I would say the most serious things I. was hooked to was methamine and. benzoipines. and I had of course been up for a few. days. I was running a fever. I was. really in bad shape. So I'm very. disoriented. They process you. There's a. strip search so you take off all your. clothes. Some stuff they'll put in a box.

and like ship it back to you. I think. they just threw my stuff away. Given a. prison uniform, uh, strip searched, pictures taken, um, questioned at one point, just sort. of a basic intake. Now I'm totally. disoriented. You know, I I was not. really processing what was happening. I. was shock, I was ill, um, I was. overwhelmed, and I, you know, basically. complied. I'm a compliant by nature, a. rule follower by nature, even though I.

got myself in this situation. So, it was rough. I will say my first. four days at MDC Brooklyn was rough. after I was put into the uniform, long. walk around the facility up to the in. the medical intake unit in the new. building and it's a double tier unit. where it's people just fresh to the. building where you get a chest X-ray, you get your teeth checked, you get TB. test, basic rudimentary medical intake.

to make sure that you're safe to be put. into general population. So, I basically waited going back and. forth to the courthouse every day uh for. like it was about three or four days. until I was bailed out. And in those. three or four days, every morning, woke. up at the beginning of the morning, taken down to the intake area, changed. clothes, shackled up, put on the van, taken the courthouse, waited all day, hoping and praying my bail would come. through, and then turned around and.

back. And then that happened three or. four times as I get sicker and sicker. and sicker and I'm asking please can I. see a doctor and it just. wasn't possible in the routine in the. intake but I survived. I eventually did. get bailed out. >> So I read that you were in the just a. giant room with 120 inmates. Is that the. same setting for this time? >> So after I was bailed out 9 months later.

I went back into the jail. I surrendered. again just in the course of the legal. process. First time around all four of. those days I was in the medical intake. unit. >> Oh. >> And that was still a 120man unit, but. that was in the new building that had. two tiers of cells. >> Um, and I stayed back in that unit for. another 11 days the second time I went. in. But the chunk of my time was in the. dorm unit, which is a single open space. I think it was about, you know, 100 by.

60 or 100 by 30, I forget. And 120. bunks, double bunks, one row after the. other, uh, in a single room, no windows, little slits for outside light, but. basically warehoused people. >> That's your second time. Nine months. later, >> you walk into this room. >> Yeah. >> That's where you're seeing. It's. different from the first time. >> Yeah. I walk in and I just see this. single room and it's just mass of people. and of course it's very loud, hard.

floors, hard walls, men from all over. the world and it's just this massive. sound, you know, everyone talking and. yelling and all that, you know, big. feeling and busyness and I couldn't. believe that was it. I thought maybe. there'd be a cell or maybe there'd be. something. But no, it was just that one. room, a few toilet stalls, uh, four or. five shower stalls with sort of stone.

walls top to the bottom. Uh, the the. tables where people would eat, two. laundry machines, a tiny kitchen area, a. room for the uh, corrections officer. um little kind of like cut little. subdivisions of the room, not doors, but. one with a television and one that was. used for basically religious activities, prayer, Bible study. And so, yeah. So, that was the room. >> How many hours were you in that room per.

day? >> Uh I was in that single room basically. 24/7 for a year. >> And the lights doesn't shut off. >> No. Well, they'll the not all. They'll. shut off a few of the lights over the. the bunks, >> but they don't turn off the lights to. the full room for safety. >> So, these are fluorescent lights. >> Yeah. >> And you're sleeping in that light. What. was the first night there? >> First night was very intense. Again, I'm, you know, coming down off drugs. And by that time, the second time I went.

in, between the two times, I gotten a. terrible concussion. And so, I'm coming. down off the concussion, the drugs, my. brain really not working well. Uh they. assigned me a bunk top bunk center of. the room right under these fluorescent. lights and that was that little tiny. strip was my only bit of like turf in. the world. I had a little locker off to. the side but that bunk under the. fluoresence in the middle of that room.

Sound coming up everywhere. not a lot of. English spoken in that mass of sound and. just. melting down and. uh it was quite an adjustment. It was a. very intense experience. Now I will say. and I have to emphasize this jail saved. my life. I was killing myself with. drugs. You know I was put on this very. difficult journey entirely because of my. own choices. And so I it I'd be dead had.

I not had that moment. But that moment. was hard. It was a big adjustment. That. first night. I did hear. um in the corner. a group of men singing in Spanish Bible. songs, like Christian, like sort of. summer camp Bible songs. And I walked. over to that circle. It was about 20. maybe 25 men clapping, singing, just you.

know Christian summer Bible camp songs. and I joined in and at the end of the. singing someone said a prayer and they. asked me my name and I said my name out. loud in jail for the first time. After. the prayer, the group of Christians went. around and gave each other hugs. And I. thought, that's the most incredible. thing in the world. Like, here I am in. this super intense room. It's the worst. moment of my life. And yet, there was.

humanity. There was kindness. Um, there. were a lot of angels in that in that. jail. Both a few people who worked there. and a few people there as inmates, and. they saved my life. >> Wow. Was that the first conversation you. had inside with with somebody or. >> I can tell you exactly. >> there was I walked in and someone who I. had met once uh in the city uh in sort. of like the drug land. He came up to me. and we reconnected. He was extremely.

helpful. He sort of was able to point a. few things out, you know, help me sort. of adjust. >> Do you recall what he said in that. moment? He said, "Uh, I think I know. you.". Uh. >> oh. >> And uh and it took me a while to process. who he was and I was very lucky that he. was there. >> You know, you say he kind of helped you, showed you around. What did he point out. for for someone new like you? >> Look, I had one speeding ticket in high.

school and like I didn't know anyone who. had ever been to jail. And so like and. for a lot of people jail's just sort of. a normal part of life and something that. their you know their cousins are there. are guys have family members there. Uh. there were people that just had a little. bit more information before they walked. in there. I did not. So he explained how. laundry got done. He sort of talked to. me about the schedule for the day. He. explained the important rules. He. explained count time because they have. to look the jail's main two things. They.

can't lose you and they can't kill you. So they have to like you know count you. and they count you twice a day actually. three times a day. >> You go to your bunk. >> Yeah. You go to your bunk. At night. they'll come. You can be laying down. >> and in the morning you can be laying. down but once a day there's a no twice a. day. Once or twice a day there's a stand. up count where you have to show that you. can stand up on your own feet so they. know that you're alive. >> And uh and they throughout the whole. federal system they do these counts. They send the count in, you know, I.

guess to Washington DC, make sure the. numbers are right. And that's just part. of the daily rituals. >> Now, did he mention any groups like, okay, you want to stay away from that. group or you don't want to say these. things, any sort of conversations like. that? >> I will say on my unit, I was very lucky. I was on a unit where generally speaking. the inmates were a little older. >> and everyone was mixed and everyone was. in the same room. You couldn't escape.

If you had a conflict with someone, there was no escaping. So although. generally speaking, people ate with. other members of their, you know, ethnic. or religious groups, um it wasn't um I. was lucky. There wasn't a kind of rigid. system of groups to avoid or not avoid. For whatever reason, I locked up on that. un locked out on that unit where there. was since we were all in the same place.

kind of social pressure for peace. I. >> is it better than the traditional sale. blocks? >> I don't know. I mean, it was I mean. pretty stressful to be in that single. room because remember in that single. room it's men who were there for all. kinds of reasons. some who had done some. serious stuff. >> Some people who were there just like on. a probation violation. All kinds of. people from all over the world, all. continents. Remember, it's New York. City. So, a lot of people come to New. York City for all kinds of reasons and.

to do all kinds of business and a lot of. it contraband. So, it was a vast number. of people and one guy could have just. been sentenced to life and one guy might. be getting out the next day. Somebody's. wife just left him. somebody's mother. just turned them in. You know, the. emotions are big uh round the clock. Well, I would say, you know, in waking. hours. So, that was a very stressful. sensory environment. It took me months.

afterwards just to adjust to the because. of the sensory overload. But in terms of. what we discussed, the social pressure. towards peace, I think was very lucky. for me. >> So, that room 24/7. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> You never stepped out of that room. Well, you could sign up and about 10. people a week could go to what they. called the library, which was like you. could leave the unit and go to this, you. know, small space with uh a certain. selection of leisure reading, scholarly.

reading, and some law books. And there. across the hall, across the hall for a. few hours a day, they opened this little. concrete room. Uh there was basically an. empty space, low ceiling. uh a very beat up um basketball rim, a. tiny little vent that went into the. shaft of the building. So, you could go. in that other room and I did sometimes. just to sort of walk in circles or do.

push-ups. That room because some of the. men had been in that room for many years. because people are at MDC. Some are just. passing through and some stay there for. years waiting for their trial to happen, waiting to testify in other cases. Right. in that little shaft, you could yell out. through that little vent and talk to. other prisoners on other floors. And the thing that made me laugh the. most was that men would have. girlfriends.

>> Oh my gosh. >> Or wives, as they'd often call them. And. they'd have these appointments where. they'd lie on the floor on their. stomachs and yell out through the shaft. and listen for their girlfriend or wife. to talk back to them. And they would. have like appointments where they'd. arrange shifts like who could lay on the. ground, yell through that shaft. Now, it. was definitely against the rules. if a. correction officer would come in and. spot them laying on the ground talking. to their wives. They'd jump up to their.

feet and act like nothing had happened. And once a year, the prison would come. through and take Polaroids. And so the. the the couples on different floors. would mail their Polaroid. >> to their girlfriend or or spouse on in. the other in the other floor. And. sometimes someone might have been. talking to this woman talking frankly. talking dirty which was most of the. conversation you know and then they had. never seen them. >> Uhhuh. >> You know and then they kept the Polaroid.

and it to be to put it nicely it wasn't. always what they imagined. So, what happens when when they see the. photo and and they're disappointed? >> Well, there's a moment of choice, you. know, do you never talk to them again or. you go down because you liked her voice. or you liked her company or at this. point you might feel a real connection. because you talk to her every day and. you go and you say, "You're the most.

beautiful woman I've ever seen." or if. the other men would see the picture. I. mean, it was I have to say, look, it was. very stressful and there's a lot of pain. and anguish and it's incredibly. difficult. Sensorally, it's hard. There. are times where it's winter with no. heat, summer with no air conditioning, but life still happens. >> You know, I read about this, too, actually. So, I I I know this exists. today, and they're saying that um where.

Diddy is staying. Oh, yeah. you know, they they wouldn't be surprised that a. lot of different inmates would try to. get in contact with Diddy because, you. know, he's famous and rich and. >> now allegedly, and by allegedly meaning. he was in the New York Times, >> that Diddy and I think Sam Bankman Freed. were in the unit that was one floor. above mine, you know. So, in terms of. like the setting, it's a fairly decent. chance that the room I'm describing is. similar to where Jude is. >> Yeah. from um our research. They're in.

north four, >> right? I was in three north. >> Three north. Yeah. >> So I was in three north. They're in four. north. Yes. Yes. I was in three north. Oh yes. Three north five. >> Now in four north. >> they have about 30 to 40 high-profile. inmate. So from what you're describing, your room had 120 people and their room. only had 30 40 people. That's why. they're saying sometimes the talk bunk. is empty. >> That makes sense. My guess is my if I. have to guess and I'm guessing that the.

um that the floor plan is the same. >> and they just have much lower population. in four north right now. >> Yeah. I don't know if you wa ever watch. Squid Game. They had this giant dorm. with all these bunk beds like three. bunks, four bunks side by side. How How. close are the bunks for you? >> Very close. Very close. >> Can Can I reach you if I just. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, easily, easily, easily. Like I'm sleeping my heads right there. to the my uh a very delightful Armenian. friend who's behind me. And uh Oh yeah,

you're very close. Oh, easily. Your arm. goes over, you touch the next person. Oh. yes, cuz you're very tight. The very. tight. I don't recommend it. I mean, I. recommend it if you want your life. saved. I mean, if you're in a bad. situation like I was, it saved my life. And I got a lot of help there. It was a. huge experience living with those men. from all over the world, hearing stories. from all over the world. And and in that. room, you're there and you're each.

other's whole lives. >> So, lots of jokes, lots of stories. >> Toilets. >> Oh, yeah. Toilets. Uh-huh. >> They're in the room. >> Oh, yeah. So, they're basically stalls. And there is a stall door you can close. And there are some urinals and they're. right near where the laundry machines. are and where the tables are for eating. >> So barely any privacy, right? >> Well, there's a stall door. >> Uhhuh. >> Um and there's a curtain for showers. >> Everything's right there. >> Yeah. Everything's right there. Yeah.

Yeah. >> And people fight over the stalls or. >> I didn't see any I didn't see any. fighting over the stalls. I mean, one. day a man died on the toilet. There was. a guy that was there and he had been. signed up for the library and he was a. sort of a newcomer. Um, and I remembered that day because. they kept calling out his name to go to. the library and he didn't he he didn't. come. So they just left and a few more. hours passed and suddenly this guy from.

Jamaica who had like maybe one finger on. his left hand and a huge amount of. dreads all tied up in a pillowcase on. his head. Very nice guy. He was mopping. and he noticed that the feet under the. stall hadn't moved. Hadn't moved. Hadn't moved. So he starts. knocking on the door. no answer. And he kicks it in and the. man is dead on the toilet. All the blood.

rushed down to his legs. And it's sort. of early in the morning, so a lot of. people are still in their bunks. And. they call, you know, alert the the. corrections officer. The corrections. officer hits what you know colloially. known as the hits the body alarm and. suddenly this like huge number of staff. from the from the p from the facility. you know administrators people in suits. people in uniforms people in lab coats.

running in pull him off the toilet lay. him down I mean he was long dead he'd. probably been dead for an hour I think. they're doing this sort of CPR are and. they and between and at this point. everybody's awake. So in that big mass. of bunks you see everybody up on their. bunk watching watching watching cuz of. course that could have been any of us. That could have been any of our last. moments. All the staff comes in. So to. block our view, a bunch of the the staff. line up like soccer players, you know,

blocking a free kick, lined up like this. so they could block whatever they were. doing to this man's body. And they take. him out and they go on and we're all. pretty shocked because we all thought. they could call that body alarm for any. of us and that's what our last moments. would look like. And then a few hours. later, because we're all buzzing, we're. all buzzing about it, this guy comes in. and says, "Gentleman, sorry to say, so.

and so died at the hospital." And a guy. stands up and says, "He was dead here. He was dead here. He was dead here. What. are you going to tell his family?" Cuz. we're all thinking, would they tell the. truth to our families? >> And the guy says, "You're not a doctor. What do you know? What do you know?" and. we all knew. So, no, none of us really. talked about it on the phone calls. because we afraid they our calls would. have gotten cut off. I think I wrote.

about it in one letter and it was really. harrowing. Now, I understand why they. have to do that. I mean, the facility. has rules and procedures and most of. them are there are for rational reasons, but when you see the system kind of kick. up like that and sort of descend upon. you, whether you're, you know, a corpse. in your jail cell or me almost a corpse. from drugs in my apartment and the. system suddenly yanks you and your. body's not really yours anymore. It's.

very dramatic, very powerful, but it is. part of life. Do you guys know what. happened to to the guy? >> I mean, I don't I don't suspect any kind. of foul play or anything like that. I. mean, I think he died of medical natural. causes. >> And you were a theater director, right? >> Mhm. >> And now you're sitting inside MDC. >> Yeah. >> In this giant box that never turns off. with 120 men.

>> Yeah. you're withdrawing from all the drugs. you were on. Have you had moments of. thinking from, you know, where your life. were going to here you are in this. situation? How how was that contrast? And how how bad did it get for you. mentally? >> Well, listen, I mean, I had some very. dark uh weeks and months. It probably. took me a while to sort of get into a. routine where I was functioning well. Um certainly there was intense amount of. despair, humiliation,

rage, um sorrow. It really felt like the end. of the world. And uh there'd be days. where I'd wake up and my whole body is. just like baking in resentment and uh. shame. And they're very intense feelings. mind. going a mile a minute, rumination, rage about the past, terror about the. future. So that was very intense period. of time and that lasted quite a while.

How long did it take you to finally get. your life turned around? I guess when. you decided to do something about it. >> Oh well, I mean that that sort of. happened in stages, >> you know, certainly in the context of. the jail. I got into a routine. I was. able to write letters. I actually did. edits on a musical book, a play that had. a reading. While I was in jail, I sent. edits. There was a reading done of. something I wrote at the York Theater on. the Upper East Side. So, I was able to.

stay creative. I worked on some other. product projects, started on a play, lots of letters. So, and I got in shape. I lost weight. I um exercised. I, you. know, prayed, I read, I did everything I. could to function well. I learned how to. eat. I was able to like make a little uh. financial deal uh with one of the. Muslims on the on the unit who could who. got fresh vegetables called a common. fair tray and I would pay him in stamps.

So, I figured out how to get fresh. vegetables, figure out how to eat a. little healthy. So, I got into a routine. even in that room. So, that was step. one. Can you actually we're going to get. into the food in a moment because we we. have we're very curious about that. Okay. >> Can you walk us through exactly from the. moment you wake up the day hour by hour. what does that look like? >> My day. Okay. Great. So I wake up I'm an. early bird. Uh one of the very few and. in fact thankfully I'm very happy to say.

I got a job and my job was the really. there were few early morning jobs. two. guys served the quote unquote breakfast. and my job was to wipe down all the. glass surfaces. So there weren't it's. not windows really to the outside but. glass surfaces on doors, you know, on to. the hallway between little rooms. And my. job is to wipe those down every morning, which took about 45 minutes to an hour.

So I would eat something, make some. coffee, I would go about and most. everyone else is sleeping. And the way I. wiped them down, I had a little cleaning. bottle and I had socks that I cut in. half and had a little sock on my hand. and I went glass surface by glass. surface. And that was my job. I think I. was paid like 25 cents an hour. But. having a job meant I got a slightly. better piece of chicken on chicken day, which was a very big deal back then. Is.

it because you purchased the chicken or. they. >> No, no, it's just what you know, one day. a week they serve chicken and that's. like the the one piece of like healthy. fresh protein and so. you want to have an inn with the guy. serving the chicken so that you get the. best possible piece of chicken. And. since I had a child and since actually I. was pretty popular, believe it or not, and uh I had a good piece of chicken and. so I had that job. So after I was done. with that, then I would usually cross. the hall to that little concrete space.

and I would exercise. and thankfully thankfully on the. commissary I was able to buy a little. AMFM radio and that was my lifeline. >> Do you remember how much it costed? >> I don't. I want to say like $ 35$55. I. forget. >> Wow. So that means you have to work. >> Well, no. Well, I had thankfully my. family put money on my commissary. account. So, like that allowed me to buy.

shoes. Shoes and the radio were the. lifesaver. >> When I got those shoes the first time, cuz the shoes they gave me were just. agonizing. My feet were like in horrible. shape. I was in a lot of pain. And when. the shoes came, I felt like I mean, I. was just floating. I felt like I was. floating. I was so thrilled. >> What kind of shoes? I some tennis shoes. I forget which. But I was so thrilled to. get those shoes. I felt like a million. bucks cuz you're wearing most of the.

days you're wearing this, you know, tan. onesie all day, you know, during like. quote unquote business hours. You could. get into, you know, sweatpants and. stuff, but during the work hours, you. wear the the tan onesie and the uh and. the shoes, I felt like a million bucks. But then you get the radio. Now, the. radio was everything to me. And it's New. York City, so a lot of great radio. So I. could listen to commercial radio, listen. to public radio, listen to music, all.

kinds of different music. And just. hearing, honestly, at the beginning, just hearing. the English language, you know, through. the radio because there wasn't a ton of. it on my unit. I mean, there's quite a. bit, but hearing uh, you know, serious. commentary, news, business, information, that radio was everything to me. And so. I'd go across and I'd listen to the. radio and it was 2008, so it was during. the Obama campaign and I'm like super.

into it and presidential year. So, I'd. walk in circles in that little room, listen to the radio, um, basically until. lunch. And the beginning when I was. there, I got basically all of my food. through the main line. But over time, I. looked, I noticed, I observed people who. were eating better and how they did it. and how they assembled uh items on the. commissary, fresh vegetables from the. common fair tray. And I figured out uh.

how to make better food for myself. And. I had a shift, a shift. There was one. microwavable. Tupperware container that floated from. person to person so they could heat up. their alternative concocted meals. And I. had like a shift where the Tupperware. container came to me. I throw in the. vegetables, the mackerel, fish, whatever. else I could, heat in the microwave, eat. it, wash it, and pass that little beaten.

up. It was so beaten up. this plastic. little object that had fed who knows how. many people over how many years. circulating. It looked like, you know, you looked like something you'd pick out. of the rubble of Chernobyl. I mean, it. really looked rough. And I had my shift. and I would eat and then I'd wash it and. hand the Tupperware tray to the next. guy. >> And uh but you know, I figured out how. to eat. It took me a long time. It took.

me months for my brain to kind of. readjust and function again. I had done. such harm to my brain with illegal. drugs, pharm legal pharmaceuticals, benzo, uh, and then the concussion. I was in. horri but eventually I started I could. feel my brain coming back online. Uh, and I figured out how to adapt. So that's the the little trait. You've. just share that tray every single day.

>> Every single day I I get the little the. guy would my friend uh would bring me. the little this is a little Tupperware. container, you know, just like like a. little storage thing, microwavable, and. it just passed around. It allowed people. to mix various food items together and. there was a microwave oven on our unit. and people would prepare little dishes. for themselves. Mhm. >> Wow. >> My turn. Yeah. >> Okay. So after lunch, what's the rest? >> After lunch, um.

for the most part, once it had passed. midday, then I was just reading. You. know, the other thing I would do in the. morning, it would be write, you know, write letters all by hand, write notes. And that was mostly on in the mornings. because once the afternoons came around, it was very hard to get a tabletop, very. hard to get a flat surface because those. were sort of taken over by other men. eating, playing cards, playing dominoes. Those big Dominoes are slapping the. dominoes down. And so it's hard to get a.

flat surface to like eat on or write on. So that was mostly during the day. So in. the afternoons, uh often would read the newspaper. God. bless my father. He sent me his New York. Times subscription. So I'm reading the. New York Times and sometimes I'd see. like some of my Harvard friends, the New. York Times. One guy like became a senator. Another. guy's a federal judge. Another some of. my theater friends. I'd see their shows, you know, and uh.

>> was it was it emotionally hard to see. those? I. >> I laugh looking back because it was just. such a wild experience at the time. Look, it was hard. Of course, it was. hard, but it was what it was. It was. reality. It was a reality that um I'd. participated in creating. Uh it was. where I was. So, a lot of New York Times. reading, a lot of book reading, a lot of. conversations. Sometimes I would go because there'd be. a sort of daily afternoon kind of Bible.

studyish type of where the Christians. would convene and maybe look at a Bible. passage or pray. Sometimes I would join. them. And then once the evening rolls. around, I just started to wind down. >> Is there a dinner? >> Oh, yeah. Of course. Yes. The mainline. dinner comes along. And. >> when you say mainline dinner, >> right? Right. Thanks. So mainline is. sort of just the slang term or or the. term for like when when food is served, they open a little, you know, on the.

unit in that single room. A little. opening would open in the in the quote. unquote little kitchen area and they. would serve food through that little. opening. Counter here, little opening, other inmates there in gloves, mask, hairet, all that. And the food would. roll down on these big sort of wagons. and served by certain inmates to the. others. Trays come along, line up, get. the food, and most people would eat that. way. I would often eat that way, but.

towards the end, I really depended on my. own little concoctions and mostly just. ate one meal a day. >> So, you're saying you don't take the. plate anymore? >> By the end, I might get a little bits. here and there, >> but by the end, I'd sort of learn to how. to prepare slightly better, slightly. healthier food for myself. >> How bad is the food? What exactly are. they serving? >> Oh gosh. Well, it's really a wide range. I want to start with the positive. I. have to say I have to respect the people.

who work there. It's a very hard place. to work. It's a very impossible. assignment. That facility is very. stressful. So, I'm going to emphasize. the positive holiday meals. They did a. great job. They did a great They did. I. mean, they really put an effort. >> What's the holiday meal? >> Uh Thanksgiving, Christmas, Fourth of. July. There were the main ones and they. really made such a difference. I think. there was a Cornish hen for Christmas, turkey for Thanksgiving, a lot of. trimmings. So those special meals, uh.

there, you know, I think there was hot. dogs or barbecue or something on Fourth. of July. They made an effort and I. appreciated it. I will say anyone who's. looking, thank you for that. >> You know, the fresh chicken, the chicken. day, that was probably the best if. you're really lucky. You know, you get. the breast with the leg attached and all. of that, but they're not all like that. Sometimes you get a thigh, sometimes. they're little pieces. I mean, people. get very emotional of how the quality of. their chicken piece. >> And you know, if you're the guy serving. and you have a grudge with somebody, you.

might give them a very lousy piece of. chicken. And that that's war right. there. That's war right there. >> Would that start a fight? >> I mean, it could. It could, but I I. don't I don't know if I saw anything. over that. But that would be definitely. a source of resentment, >> you know, because remember there's some. guys who've been on that unit for years. and some guys on that unit have known. each other, two cousins, you know, all. of that. And then you have other guys. who are just passing through two or. three days or passing through and they. might have some rivalry from the street.

with someone else on that unit. Not too. often, but so there's a mix of people. And if you're just off the street, you've been there for three days, and. you feel like you've someone has shown. you disrespect of some kind, uh that can. create tension and occasionally a. physical uh altercation. >> Are those bad? Do do you see blood? >> I saw a few. U as I said, for the most. part, there was pressure not to have. those fights. And when those fights, you. know, teed off, for the most part,

people would come and take them apart, >> you know, cuz I think there was an. understanding that like when two men. have committed to that fight, you cannot. back down without losing face. And so it. was the sort of uh duty of everyone. around you knowing you can't back down. to either stop it before it happened or. to pull you off each other. But there. were a few. And you know, fights just. pop off. Fights pop off. They pop off in. jail. They pop off on the subway. They.

pop off on the sidewalk. Fights happen. They pop off on sports fields. And. sometimes they pop off and they could be. pretty brutal. I mean, there's one fight. I saw. Both guys I like, nice guys, but. something and they had been like friends. and friendly for weeks and months, but. something snapped. They got into it and. the bigger guy beat the other guy out of. his clothes. I mean, the guy was just. destroyed, I think. But by the end, he. had maybe his underwear left and they. had to drag him out. So, things pop off.

Could you know? >> Is there a solitary confinement for. >> Oh, yeah. Uh, it's called special. housing unit and protective custody. They're different versions. So, some. people might end up for a long while in. in a solitary cell for disciplinary. issues, for violence, for rule. violations. They use it for discipline. and some people might end up there if. they're a high-profile. uh prisoner that needs extra protection.

>> I'm assuming you've never been. Have you. heard from other guys who got in there. or came out of there? >> Oh, sure. Describing. >> Oh, sure. I mean, listen, I I had a few. days, not many. I had a few days where. it was basically. on lockdown. This is in the medical. intake unit. on lockdown by myself in a. cell except for meal times and that is. brutal. It is brutal and I just what it. does to the human brain. We're not. designed to be in that kind of. isolation. It's not healthy. I.

understand for safety reasons it has to. be done sometimes, but it's tough. And I. had people I knew well who had a. violation of some kind were dragged off. to the shoe. Not dragged, that's not. fair. and they firmly escorted to to the. isolation. and they'd come back, you know, weeks. later, months later, ashen thinner cuz. there's nothing to do all day. 23-hour. lockdown. And you would see it took a.

while being around other people to start. looking healthy again. >> Wow. >> And that was just part of being in a. facility like that. >> You say months. Look, some people would. probably spend their entire time in a. room like that. Um, I didn't know. anybody. I mean, I knew people who went. there for I mean, I want to say. typically it's like six six weeks or so, but maybe a few were longer. I would. tell you something. It was the most. amazing thing. You could always tell.

when someone was about to go home that. someone found out something about their. case or they knew they were about to get. out the next day and as soon as they. heard that news, you'd see the gray. ashen face. color would come back. I remember this. one guy, he found out he's getting out. the next day. I forget what reason, but. it was like he was 20 years younger. Like that life just rushed back. >> Wow. >> And I remember cuz I didn't know I was. getting out till about 8 hours before. I.

found out the evening before the next. day. And as soon as I got off the phone, I walked back to my bunk and they said, "You're getting out. I could see it on. your face." because, you know, that rush. of life, you know, came back and it was. visible on me, too. >> Wow. No, we're we're going to get into. that in a second. I'm very curious about. your your whole experience re-entering. it. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Now, going back to the to the food. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> You said that, you know, the type of.

food that was being served and then you. you start making your own food and how. did you get the fresh vegetable again? What. >> I can tell you exactly. So, uh, they. they provide basically vegetarian trays. and other special meals for people that. have but basically for vegetarians. Now, again, this is a while ago. I assume. it's that way still, but this was me in. 2008. They had something called quote. unquote a common fair tray which. basically had fresh vegetables. And that. was pretty common for.

u Muslims who had certain restrictions. on the kind of meat they could eat. And. so and other I think um some other. religious groups I think there was a. Hindu guy who had a common fair tray and. had I known I would have requested that. when I got there but so I just made a. deal with somebody who had gotten a. common fair tray and I paid him in. stamps and so I would get his lunch tray. and that lunch tray um gave me basically. two meals worth of fresh vegetables and.

I would mix that in from the little. mackerel fish, the little macs as they. call them and any other kind of like. seasonings, anything I could get off of. the um commissary and I get my. Tupperware and heat it up and eat it. >> That is incredible. You know, we read. that SPF. >> Oh, yeah. >> in a report he he said that he's vegan. and I'm assuming this is what he's on. Are you saying that the the common fair. trade provides healthier and better food. than you normal? >> Well, I mean, it's sort of limited as I.

recall, >> you know. I just remember being sort of. uncooked vegetables. >> such as. >> oh gosh um uh carrots I guess celery. >> I don't remember cuz I just chopped up. whatever was there and threw it into the. tray. The chopper was I can explain. exactly what the chopper was was you'd. ask somebody who'd gotten who'd gotten. Pringles and you'd say when you're done. with the Pringles, can I have your. Pringles tube? And they'd say yes. And. you say thank you. Thank you. And you.

take the bottom of the Pringles tube and. you'd bend it back and forth until you. had a little surface. And so that half. bottom of Pringles tube is how I chop my. vegetables. >> Wow. >> Now, you don't want to be caught with. that cuz that would be contraband. But. uh I think a lot of the corrections. officers, if they saw you chopping. vegetables, would leave you alone. >> Wow. What? >> Look, you got to live. You adapt to. survive. Adapt, adapt, adapt. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, it's very fascinating. What kind of um other I guess weapons.

you seen? >> You know, thankfully I didn't see I mean. I I do know that before I got on that. unit um a few weeks or months earlier my. friend who came up and saw me and said, "Oh, I know you from the street." He. told me that a few weeks or months. earlier there was actually a conflict. between two ethnic groups and there was. sort of like a planned, you know, for. lack of a better word, rumble, you know, for the you Westside Story fans out. there. And he said he knew there was.

trouble because all the men from those. two groups were all wearing their shoes. to bed and that they had all taken their. locks cuz you could have a lock order a. lock off the commissary to lock up your. little locker. And they'd all taken the. locks off, put them in socks. and um. put their shoes on and waited for their. opportunity. I I think let me tell you. what I think it was, but I don't know. for sure. Don't quote me. one of the. corrections officers would go help the. other unit on the same hallway do their.

count on the other unit. So they had. this like 20 15 minute window where. there was there were still cameras. everywhere but there was no physical. officer on the unit and when they saw. their moment they again this is. secondhand I didn't see this myself. jumped uh out of their their bunks and. basically had kind of a you know little. battle until officials came down uh and.

broke it up and many most of the unit. Most everyone in the unit was taken to. the special housing unit, put in. isolation for or in little twoman cells. for a while. They, you know, interviewed. all of them and slowly most of the. people came back. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Look, it's just life. It's just. life. It's Earth. It's just planet. Earth. Normal stuff. >> I found this little image online that. that has a list of the jobs. >> Oh, yeah.

>> that are available and how much they're. paid. Oh yeah. >> And the pay range from 12 cents to 40. cents. Do everybody want a job in there? And are there difference in in the jobs? Are some of them more desirable than the. other? How do you even get a job? >> So yes, listen, these are again this is. just uh earth and people. So there some. people want to work, some people don't. There are various range of jobs. Some. are more desirable than others and. people get them through various ways. So. I got mine because you know the the.

inmate who was sort of head of the you. know cleanup crew that head of the the. cadres on our unit I didn't they didn't. call them cadres another word for it. trustees or something inmate workers uh. uh crew on our unit he saw me and just. approached me he saw that I was up in. the morning he saw it I was a morning. person and said do you want a job this. is the job in the morning and this is. and I said yes I was dying for a job I. was dying just to have a task. Even. though it was like putting little socks,

puppet like hands and and wiping down. glass surfaces, I was so thrilled to. have a job. I was there during the. pre-trial period, but some people do. their whole sentence at these detention. facilities and they go in as a cadre and. their jobs in some ways are better. So. somebody might, you know, do their whole. two, you know, one yearong sentence. there and work as a welder or work in. the big kitchen downstairs or have a job. that has a little more responsibility,

uh, a little bit more freedom of. movement. And those people generally are. there serving their sentence. the people. who are on the pre-trial group the way I. was or people who are kind of in transit. um. you know it's morely mostly jobs like on. the units so they're not as desire quote. unquote desirable as people who are. there as. >> cadres. basically it really depends on the. person some people want to have.

something to do versus others just don't. want to work and nobody's forcing you to. do it it's your choice you can try to. get a job or don't get a Yeah, I think. people want I think people want to have. a little assignment. I think it's. healthy. I think that most people like. it. >> The commissery. >> Mhm. >> What else do they have there? Brought a. radio. You bought a pair of shoes. >> Yeah, there's some there. It's actually. kind of wide range. You could probably. like see it online actually. I think you. could buy bags of rice. There are some.

seasonings. You could buy batteries. Batteries to the radio. Stamps. um pads of paper, you know, just uh. shaving cream, uh I think for the. women's unit, they had some, you know, rudimentary beauty products. >> Um rudimentary stuff. It's all. rudimentary, you know, toiletry kind. kinds of things. Uh soap, but there were. some sweets. I mean, the big prize was. like a six-pack of soda. That was like, you know, thrill. Anything sugar. Sugar.

was big. So you could buy I remember I. got a Kit Kat bar the first time I. tasted Kit Kat. I love so thrilled to. taste sugar. Eventually I stopped. getting that but you buy coffee instant. coffee. So that was big for me. >> Would the Kit Kat bar be the same price. or is it jacked up or. >> I don't really remember. Probably. everything is jacked up. >> Probably everything is. Oh, but I mean Oh, the other big thing. Oh, this is big. Sweatpants and a.

sweatshirt. Huge. Oh my gosh, so big. Once you get those sweatpants, man, you're like a king because, you know, you're just in that onesie uniform and. over time you can buy things to make. your life marginally more comfortable, but the margin in there feels like it's. huge. >> You mentioned in another uh interview. that the the currency there is macro. fillet. >> Oh yeah. So when I was there, the main. currency were stamps and these little.

blue packages of mackerel. They call. them mac. So each little little mackerel. fillets like you can get at, you know, grocery store, you know, tinned fish is. really in in the in right now. And um. and those little packets of macro. fililelets sort of functioned as. dollars. >> So you will buy it from from the. commissary first? >> Buy it from the commissary. She'd get a. stack of Macs and that was my main. source of protein. So I'd buy a lot of. those. I would also use them to pay, you. know, because the guy who ran the. laundry, if you gave him a Mac, he would.

make sure your laundry got all back to. you, he'd fold it, put it on your bed. You'd give a Mac to the guy who was the. barber cuz, you know, one inmate. basically was in charge of the clippers. and once a week would like trim your. beard, trim your hair, you pay him in a. Mac. But the big thing was you'd gamble. with Max. Now, I'm not a gambler, but. you see guys, they play poker that bump. bump bump the max coming out and they. have a big night and they're coming back. to their bunk, this arm full of maxs and. like shoving them all into their.

lockers. Oh, it's huge. And one night, uh, this is a gambling story, but one. night I got really sick, running really. bad fever, and my bunky, who was lovely, who had like five kids, lovely, lovely. man, and he saw that I was in bad shape, and he uh checked my temperature by like. putting his hands around my ankles, and. he's like, "You're in bad shape." And he. went out and played poker. He's really. good at poker. And he went out and. played poker and he got me saltines and.

like Sprites. >> Wow. >> And it was like the nicest thing ever. done to me. It was the sweetest thing. He like went out, gambled, brought his. max out and gambled for saltines and. Sprite to make me feel better. And I. could I mean it brought tears to my eyes. at the moment. >> Is this the same guy you ran into later. at a grocery store or. >> No. No. Well, actually, you know what? I. actually did run into him once. He was.

working on a construction crew around. the corner from this uh school I was. working at. And so, I did see him. I. said, "Is that him? Holy cow." And we. did interact. And I think I have his. phone number somewhere. Lovely guy, lovely wife, beautiful children. >> Wow. >> You know, >> we heard somewhere that the ramen. noodle, instant ramen ramen. >> Oh. Oh, yes. Of course, that's big. Oh, thanks for bringing that up. Oh, yeah. Love the ra Everyone love I'm not a. ramen noodle person, but those are big. And you can get those on the commissary. >> But those are not the currency in your.

>> that not as I remember. >> Okay. >> I mean obviously everything's currency. >> Currency is just what what you trade, you know. So you know one guy he started. a business and he would draw you. greeting cards for your kids or your. wife for holidays and he had markers. I. don't know how he got the markers, but. he had markers and paper and you would. pay him in stamps or Max and he would. give you a personalized greeting card. for you to mail to your kid for their. birthday or wife for, you know, your.

anniversary or whatever. And that was. his business. And so I think he accepted. payment in Mac. I don't know if he. accepted payment, but you accept payment. in whatever you know batteries are. valuable. Those are good. you obviously. the sugar sodas that's valuable but I. would say the main unit of currency was. the Mac. >> you know obviously everyone has. different levels of money I guess right. we're talking about Diddy and SPF they. probably have infinite amount of money.

to get everything on the commissary list. times 10 right they probably can have 50. max to give it to everyone do do you. think that comes with more privilege. then they can live more comfortably. >> As I recall, there was a maximum you. could spend. >> uh each month or every two weeks or. however long it was. So they wouldn't. have been able to like max out the. commissary. I mean they would have maxed. out whatever the monthly limit was. >> but that had some so there was a.

ceiling. Now I'm sure someone who is. wealthy and famous that there would be. people saying look if I can buy get you. extra stuff on my commissary order if. you want to put money into my account. they're always look you know everyone's. transa everyone's doing business this is. still earth remember everyone's looking. for a deal looking for a way to get over. looking for a way to get in all of that. happened I will tell you this one of the. most exciting things I ever seen in my. whole life there was a sort of. recreation guy who worked at a bure.

prison. And one day he brought in a Monopoly. board. I saw the most exciting game of. Monopoly I'd ever seen. And they set it. up on this table and the four guys were. standing around the Monopoly board. and. the Monopoly board. The game went so. fast and they're like playing and fast. fast fast and making side deals and. paying people around the side and it was. like the most exciting thing I'd ever. seen cuz these guys were like very.

sophisticated. in their own worlds. businessmen, hustlers if you want to say that. and. they're hustling each other and they're. cheating, they're breaking the rules and. they're screaming at each other and it. was thrilling. So, I mean to say that. everyone's still, you know, life hasn't. stopped. So, they want to go talk to. their wife. They want to find a way to. make $10 gambling. Life doesn't stop. >> How bad were the summers and winters? >> Well, there were times on my unit uh.

where the air conditioning didn't work. I think that was I want to say more than. a week and that was brutal. I mean that. was brutal. Very hot cuz there's no air. circulation. There's no fresh air. You. know they put some big fans in the you. know the door to the hallway. But that. didn't really provide any relief. There's nothing you can do. >> 120 people in a room. >> Well 120 bunks. I would say the actual. population number was like more like.

105. you know, maybe got up to 110 a few. times. >> and summer in Brooklyn can get. >> Yeah. I mean, very hot and then a few. times in winter. >> Um, there was no heat. Very, very cold. And a lot of these men were from the. equatorial countries, you know, whether. the Caribbean or the equator at South. America or, you know, West Africa, other. places. And for some of those guys who'd. never really been in winter, that was. like brutal. And you look out, they. wouldn't even get out of their beds.

They're so cold. and you see like uh. just you know men basically you know. shivering under their sheets in their. bunk all day. The cold didn't bother me. as much but no I mean it's cold it's. cold you know it's cold sometimes. Yeah. it's cold. >> Can you buy more clothes to wear or. >> Well listen I mean for people who've. been there longer if you had your. sweatsuit and then you put your uniform. over it. Um, and then depending on which.

correction officer was in charge, you. could put something over your head. I. mean, basically hats, you know, do-aggs, a lot of that stuff was not allowed in. certain parts of the room depending on. the day. So, I started losing my hair in. there. So, my hair would get cold. I. mean, I there are times I wake up and my. hair is on my pillow cuz I'm stressed. out. I'm miserable. You wake up, my hair. is like falling out, falling out in. jail. Um, so yeah, I mean if you had. hair, you had more layers of clothes, you had a better chance. But for guys.

who were passing through or who didn't. have sweatpants, sweat, uh, shirt? >> Yeah, it was cold. I mean, it's cold. >> You were there 2008. That's what, 17. years ago. Do you know anything about. the condition today? Is it as bad? Is it. worse? Is it better? >> I can only tell you what I've heard. secondhand. >> And that's from someone I'm still in. touch with who had an office there. And. um what I've heard is that the unit that. I was on, the those dorm units are. basically just used for women now and.

that the men are all in the new building. where they're in the sort of double tier. cell units that I describe for medical. intake. >> From my research, that's where Luigi. Manion is in. >> Oh, yeah. >> And SPF and Diddy, they're in. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Four North. Yes. >> Four north. That's level four. And level. three are for women's. That's how they. communicate to to each other up and. down. >> So my unit isn't men anymore. >> Um I mean the only things I've heard are.

maybe slightly more demoralized staff. Look, it's very hard just physically. Look, it's New York. You don't have lots. of real estate. So if you need to keep. all these people near a courthouse, just. being New York, you know, things are. going to be smaller, things are going to. be tighter, things are going to be more. crowded together. A lot of people have. cases here. the Southern District of New. York, Eastern District of New York. Those are big districts. They process a. lot of people. So, it's an intense. setting just by reality, just by the.

nature of square footage and zip codes. It's a hard place to be. I can tell you. one thing I did see, one of the most. amazing things I've ever seen in my. whole life. So, these men, a lot of. these men hadn't been on the street for. a long time, years. There was a guy. who's like, "Oh, when I got arrested, I. was worried about my eight track tape. collection." So they hadn't been around. So they hadn't, you know, been around a. woman for a long time. And they had. rules about you couldn't send in certain. kind the pictures the girlfriends could.

send in or certain magazines had to be. conservative in terms of how the women. were dressed. You know, the closest. thing the men would get excited about is. it was the 2008 Olympics and during the. uh the beach volleyball competition. The. men were lined up like, "Oh my gosh, thrilled just looking up." But but one. night, I don't know, this had to have. been so against the rules. I can't tell. you how against the rules this must have. been. But out of the blue, one of the.

corrections officers rolled in and. imagine like your high school teacher. rolling in a TV and a VCR to show like a. movie that night. He rolls it in and. rolls it into like one of the few spots. where there's no like camera coverage, you know, a few blind spots in the. cameras. He rolls it in there and he. puts on a movie. And I mean at the time. I thought that's the nicest thing this. guy ever done because these guys are so.

desperate and so pent up. You know this. these are young men. These are young. people. You know a lot of them really. young men and I'm telling you people. went nuts. Now a lot I did not go over. there but a lot of guys they left off. their bunks and they ran over watching. watching the movie. Now, I'm sure. someone's going to deny this happened, but I'm sure this happened. And they would take turns going in and. out of the bathroom stalls or in and out.

of the showers to, you know, wow, >> finish themselves off. And then they'd. go back and watch a little longer. And. actually, I have to say, they were very. polite about letting each other go in. and out of the showers and the toilet. stalls. There was this odd sense of like. good manners, you know, about how to. handle this. Now, I don't think this. ever happened before. If it did, I don't. know. But it was like this huge burst of. energy, you know, from these men that. were so longing for any contact or image.

or excitement or anything. And then I. think maybe 25 minute fast. I don't. remember exactly. I was a little like I. was afraid to even look or go over there. to be honest because it was just like. this frenzy's overstating it. But let's. say high energy event. >> and uh and then at some point the the. guy went back corrections officer went. back turned it off wheeled the TV back.

The guys sort of you know made their way. back to their bunks and I never saw. anything like that before or since. That is incred. But like the the the guard dep now look. this is years ago. The person's probably. retired enjoying a nice speech vacation. and if not you know I wouldn't want to. say anything to get anyone in trouble.

you know but he was like young and I. think in a weird way it was like. generous. in a weird way. It was like. kind, you know, cuz cuz one of the. serious consequences about breaking the. law and ending up in a facility like. that is you can be in the prime of life. and go 10 years without being close to a. woman. And that's, you know, one of the. hardest things for some young guys to.

adapt to or to process cuz all that. energy, they're human beings, they're. males, they're earth creatures, all. those energies still exist within them. So, in some ways, I thought that was an. act of great kindness. That guy brought. it out. >> Did you have any experiences or at any. moment you were genuinely feared for. your life? >> No. I had one moment of one moment where. someone was angry about something I. said.

Um, and he was pissed. Um, but it dissipated and nothing came. of it. >> Can you. >> I can tell you exactly. I can tell you. exactly. It was May 2008. and one of the TVs was on. There's no. sound, but the TV was on and I said out. loud I thought uh Barack Obama was going. to win. And this guy who was. African-American from Pittsburgh was. sure I'd only said that out loud because. I was trying to humiliate him and his.

friends because of course that would. never happen. They would never let an. African-American man win the presidency. So he thought the only reason I would. say that out loud would be to humiliate. the black men on my unit, which was not. my I was at that time I was rooting for. Barack Obama and I really thought he was. going to win early. I thought he just. had the. wins were going his direction and the. guy was like pissed. Uh he thought I was.

trying to humiliate him and being. humiliated and disrespect is a huge. deal. A huge deal. Not just in jail, everywhere on earth, but in jail, too. Yeah, I remember exactly. So, election. night came in like I guess it was like 8. o'clock. They called Ohio for Obama. And. I'm like, he won. Cuz I knew if he won. Ohio, he was going to win the whole. thing. But most of the men were like, "No, no, no. They can still take it away. from him. California is still out. there." And I'm thinking he's going to. get California. But they're like, "No,

they'll still there's still time." you. know the little radios people were three. four to an earbud listening on the. radios. It was a huge event. It was a. huge event. Um unfortunately they turn. off the TVs at like 11. So the we. weren't able to watch the acceptance. speech but when they called it for him. that guy who had like I think seven. bodies on his case. So, he had a pretty. serious case and he hadn't we hadn't. spoken since that day, although we'd.

pass each other. He comes up to me, tears like streaming down his face, takes me by the hand and says, "You told. me. You told me." And like there was. whatever energy was between us was gone. And it was a very I mean it was. incredible to be there that night. And. the and the men did were crowded around. little earbuds, you know, the little. radio we had. So you'd have three around. each earbud straining to hear the.

acceptance speech. It was a huge event. in that room. Super exciting, very. powerful. And actually when they called. it, another guy who um who was. hilarious, who I loved, it was. absolutely hilarious. They because um of. my skin color assumed I was rooting for. McCain. And so a guy comes up and he's. got like an ice bucket like they would. pour over the winning or losing like. coach. Luckily I ran away in town with.

the in time but the idea was to like. douse me in the ice. Of course I had. lost because of my skin color. My team. had lost. >> Was it like the most memorable election. experiences for you? Would the emotion. be way more intensified in in a room. like that? In a setting like that? >> I Well, everything's intensified in a. setting like that because you've got. hundred men with these huge feelings. going through the worst times of their. lives. Everything felt big. Everything.

felt big. But I'll never forget that. That of course was a thrill to be a part. of that. And then of course it just the. room was just buzzing because it was. just absolutely impossible. to. most of the men on that unit that. something like that could happen. >> Were there any conflicts because of the. election result? >> No. >> Really? After that was called things. move on. >> Oh yeah. And the guy who was going to. pour ice on my head was doing it with.

love and was doing it like as a joke. I. find that interesting in compared to. >> the world was different. I mean, >> yeah, >> life on my unit was different. There. really wasn't, you know, tensions like. that, political, racial, ethnic, religious. We all pretty much on my. unit, thank God, got along. The only. time there was like te a moment of. ethnic tension was there were a group of. guys.

that all spoke Russian and two were. Russian and one was from the country of. Georgia. So he spoke Russian but he was. ethnically Georgian in the Caucus'. region and everyone called him Russia. That was like his nickname because he. spoke Russian. Lovely guy. And there was. this day when Russia invaded Georgia and. suddenly he didn't want to hang out with. the other Russian guys. He was like, "F. you guys." And he made an announcement. My nickname is no longer Russia. Don't.

call me that name anymore. And he was. very serious about it. Because he saw. that invasion and kicked into his. nationality. And so his relationship to. that events changed his social. relationship. And I didn't see him talk. to the Russian guys again. >> Wow. So, you're saying there's not that. many clicks or groups that has conflicts. and tensions all the time? >> Not I didn't I didn't feel that way. >> I didn't feel that way. There certainly. were, you know, East Africans, West.

Africans, African-Americans. Those were. Muslims were kind of own group. Obviously, the Spanish speakers kind of. hung out. There was the great debate I. saw twice between the East Africans and. the West Africans was where was the. Garden of Eden? Was it in Ethiopia or. Nigeria? And of course, they were both. sure that they were right. It was great. I mean, it was the thrill. >> You were only told eight hours before. you were getting released. You know, what was that like? Someone just pull. you aside, delivered the news, and then. what happened after that? The the last.

eight hours and after you were released. >> So, I uh there was some expectation that. I might get out after one year. Well, actually, there was some expectation. after 6 months, but they said no to. that. after a year they said yes. And so. I found out from a phone call either to. my lawyer to my family um the night. before. and they said you're um you're getting. out and so that was it. The next morning. they said you're going to court so they.

woke me up early. I went through that. whole elaborate process of being taken. out of the unit through the hallways. moved through. >> What was the what was going through your. mind when you heard that news? Was it. would you say that's like the happiest. day of your life or were you on cloud. night? >> I mean it just was like it's like a you. know just burst of energy you know it. was super int I don't know it didn't I. can't really describe it. It's not like. winning anything. It's not like my case.

was over. It's not like my problems were. over but I certainly was like it was. just this kind of electrif electrified. you know and I said my goodbyes. I mean, I felt close to a lot of those guys, you. know. One guy came up, tears coming down. his face, you know. >> Wow. >> And uh. >> they were so happy for you that they're. crying. >> Well, they were sad, you know. They were. sad to say goodbye, you know. I mean, we. were each other's whole life. No. iPhones, no no leaving the room to go anywhere.

else. We were each other's whole life. And we'd gone through some of the. biggest moments of our lives together. So the relationships were I mean not. like. I don't know very unique kind of bond. but certainly close. I I mean I would. love to see some of those guys again. We're not allowed to be in touch you. know during your period of basically. probation supervised release. You can't. contact anyone else with a felony record. for a few years and who knows where they.

are. So I went out and went through the. the the you know the basement tunnels, got to the intake intake processing. room, changed clothes, shackled hands. and feet, hooked up to the other guys, put on that bus, you know, taken up I. think up an elevator, maybe even out the. gates in Sunset Park, driven back to the. courthouse in the uh shackled hand and. feet again. You know, you're like.

shuffling along in the bullpen at the. courthouse, >> the same courthouse, the. >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. 500 pearl. >> Yes. Yes. Laura Manhattan. And suddenly. they're take me up to the courtroom, still handcuffed and still in my prison. uniform. And waiting to pick me up was. this woman who I'd worked with, good. friend, a woman who my mother had stayed. with when she came up to visit me. and. she was there and she had clothes for. me. I had street clothes, pants, belt,

shirt, my house keys, credit card, and there she was and she saw me in that. uniform, uh, handcuffed, which I'm sure. was a shock for her. And then suddenly they take the. handcuffs off and they say, "Okay, go. home." And you just put on my street. clothes. And she walked me out and she. put me in a cab. I got a little way in. the cab, but I got car sick because of. course I'd never seen anything move. faster than someone walking for a year.

So, I had to lean out and throw up on my. walk. >> Wow. >> And suddenly I'm like back in my. apartment, you know, by myself and uh in my clothes. and my brain still buzzing because the. noise, the light, the stress. And it took me, I don't know, probably a. year or two really to decompress. >> Wow. >> But I'll never forget being able to like. close the bathroom door. I was like, "Oh.

my gosh, this is the luxury of being. able to close." No one lived with me, but I'm like, I'm closing this bathroom. door every time the rest of my life. But also being able to like pick what I. ate. >> What did you eat the first day? >> I went out for sushi. I went to Gourmet. Garage, 7th Avenue South and 10th. Street, which is now closed. unfortunately. And I think I got like. salmon sushi and I think I got some uh. Ben and Jerry's and but I I hardly knew.

could process the choice, you know, walking through the sidewalk. Everything. was, you know, sort of foreign. not foreign. Everything was just, you know, I just. couldn't, it took a while to process. normal life as normal again. >> How was the first night? Um, going from. only sleeping in. >> Oh, the bed felt amazing. Bed felt, it. was thrilling to be in a bed, my own.

bed, my stuff, my TV, my books, my. clothes, my own underwear, socks. Thrilling. So, you had no trouble. falling asleep? >> No trouble falling asleep. I got my. first iPhone. I sent my first text. within a few days, like 2009, which I'd. never done before. And it's like I. slowly like came back online. It took a. long time. It was not very long. Just a. few days before I.

flew to Missouri and where I stayed with. my parents for until my sentencing. >> And after sentencing, it was done. Well, I had I had three more years what they. call supervisor release, like probation. So, in that first year, I had a few more. times where I do in-person check-ins, drug tests, um where they visit your house, normal, rational kind of systems in place to. make sure that someone uh doesn't cause,

you know, readjusts to life as an a. law-abiding citizen. I I think. throughout this whole interview, I think. everybody can tell how much passion you. have for helping all these people. That's kind of what you do today now, right? Can can you tell us about what. you do? How did you even get this job. and and and what does it mean for you? And. >> well, as as you'd said earlier, I had. worked in the theater for my career. before I got in trouble. And I went back. and did some directing again. uh. directed an off Broadway musical, directed a drama school, but the money.

wasn't enough. And thankfully, kind of. out of the blue over LinkedIn, I. connected with Michael Santos, who is. really a big leader in helping people. that are going through the system. He. spent over 20 years, over 9,000 days, I. think over 26 years in prison. And he. gave himself a world-class education. He. helped a lot of people. and he met a. business partner, Justin Pernie, and the. two of them started basically a.

consulting firm to help people go. through that legal process to start. pivoting towards the future, make. choices that made sense, choices that. were adaptive, prepare for sentencing. Cuz when I was going through this, I was. totally disoriented. I was felt like it was the end of my. life. I couldn't get sober. I did a lot. of stuff to hurt myself. uh or I should. say a lot of bad choices. Um I did not. adapt. I felt total despair and totally.

lost. And these two guys have put their. voices out there to help people just. like I was guide them through this. situation. Cuz a lot of people that go. through the system, especially the. federal system, which has a different. set of crimes they prosecute than the. state system, a lot of people it's their. first case. And so they said, "Do you. want to come work for us?" Because one. of the things we do is that in. preparation for sentencing, we help. defendants tell their stories. You know,

over like 95% of federal cases end with. a guilty plea. So these are people who. have accepted responsibility, know they're going to be sentenced. They're they're not saying they didn't. do anything. And Michael and Justin started this. firm. And part of that was to help the. defendants and their families, write. letters to the judge so the judge could. see their case in the context of their. whole life. They could accept full.

responsibility, talk about the victims, talk about their plans to make amends, but talk about other things, talk about. their future plans, talk about how they. can use their time in prison to be. productive, to give themselves an. education, to shift their thinking from. self-destructive and harmful behavior to. a different kind of attitude towards. life. one that's sober, one that's. productive, one that's focused on. positive activity, obeying the law, not doing harm. And so.

I really was moved that they invited me. to be part of their team. And that was, you know, seven plus years ago. And I've. now worked with hundreds of people going. through the system from all over the. country, from Alaska to Hawaii to Maine. to Florida. People that from all over. the world, their cases are here. people. of all ages, you know, from someone. who's, you know, 20 to someone who's in. their 70s, all kinds of conduct, all. kinds of lengths of sentences, a lot of. people that are famous, people that have.

been on TV, people with big cases, people with big consequences, and other. where it's a tiny case and you can't. believe they even bother bringing it and. they end up getting, you know, home. confinement or probation or somebody who. goes through the pre-trial process, the. hell of all that, for years and years. and the case gets dropped. So people go through the system for all. kinds of reasons. Uh having broken the. law for all in all kinds of ways, but. the system is still the system. And when.

a case starts, it feels like an. earthquake in the middle of your life. And not just yours, your family. And you. can be sitting there out on bail and. find out, boom, they're taking your. house. Boom, you have a billion-dollar. company you founded. It's gone. Your. reputation is ruined. the the uh DOJ. puts out a press release and describes. you in the worst possible way. Puts. stuff out that like has not been proven. in court, but just putting out al so. it's just huge feelings whether you're.

in jail or not. You sort of lose your. story. Suddenly the government's telling. your story and the government's just. going to tell what's going to help them. win. Now there's a place for a justice. system. I respect it. We need an orderly. way to process harm that people do to. each other. We need to have laws. It's. not America is worldwide. There are. jails and laws and judges and police. It's part of being on Earth and I. respect the need for that. But when the. case is United States versus me, uh it's.

intense and they win and they're very. good at winning and they know how to do. it and they're they're very have a lot. of experience. So when you're on the. receiving end of that, uh it's painful. and not everyone survives that. Not. everyone survives the despair or the. loss. Not everyone can see their way. through to the other side. And so my. role with this uh consulting firm which. called white collar advice and a.

nonprofit I'm starting called Defendant. Support. you know, just whatever I can. do as someone who can help them tell. their story, help talk about sobriety, tell them about my experience, because. the truth is I feel happier, younger, more optimistic, better than I have my. whole life. And I had to go through that. to get here. And they can hear that in. my voice. And I can be on the phone with. them. I might know some of these. defendants for years between when they. get their target letter or when they get.

arrested to their sentencing hearing. Some people I know years after. I had. lunch with some guy who I wrote his. helped him write his uh uh personal. narrative I don't know 2018 and he was. like he's in horrible shape. I was in. horrible shape. If you'd seen me at my. lowest moments, shackled hands and feet. or in a cell 23 hours a day, you'd feel. like, "This guy's not going to survive. This guy's in horrible shape." But. people can get through that. They can.

reckon with harm. They can take. responsibility. They can make amends. They can go through a healing process. And part of that healing process, that. process of reckoning can be painful. But. it's one season of life. Even if you've. done something serious, even if you've. really done serious harm, it's one. season of life. And if you start heading. in the right direction, there's a path. to healing. There's a path to making. amends. There's a path to making peace. with your victims. There's a path to. reconnecting with community and family,

ending despair. The darkness can lift, but you got to head towards the light. And so if I can help someone do that, I. mean sometimes when someone changes. directions, they pivot in the right. direction, they take the right steps, they take responsibility and make amends. in the right way, a judge can see that. And a judge can see that someone has. done that work and that might get them a. lighter sentence. >> So you help people when they're in their. darkest time. >> Oh yes. Always many times talking to.

people on their worst days. But I hear. that and I can already picture them. getting better, >> you know, because I'm in a sober. fellowship. I've seen people come in. death's door, come back to life and get. years of sobriety or someone catch a. case, get arrested, feel like it's the. end of their life and see them come back. to life. I've seen it over and over and. the path is available for everybody. >> Exactly. Who should be reaching out to. you or your firm when the feds are.

knocking on their door? Are you mainly. focusing on the white collar crimes? >> Well, for whitecollar advice.com, you know, my bosses Justin Papard and. Michael Santos have a huge amount of. mitigation information for free for. anybody. So, you can get a lot of. information just by going to their. website. Prisonprofessors.org, I think, is a nonprofit that has lots of. incredible educational materials for. people that are in jail right now. It's. all about getting people through the.

system to rejoin the world as good. neighbors, family members. So, if. somebody's in trouble, has a relative in. trouble, go see what information is. there. Some people want to know more. about me, they can go to brad rouse.com. They can see about my whole life because. even though most people just wanted me. to talk about jail, I had a whole life. before, a whole life after. And I help. people in other ways. There are other. ways people going through the system. that a nonprofit hopefully next year. defended support will be there. people.

have reached out to me to talk to their. classes to uh you know come to. conferences all that's available but for. somebody who's in trouble who has a. family member with a case you know. really the first stop if I were to. suggest would go to my boss's website. there are other consulting firms and. companies who do that but my two bosses. has dedicated you know since 2008 I. think they started this 2009 they've. worked with thousands of people and the. amount of information they've collected.

over the yours is great and a lot of. that people can get for free their. YouTube videos or if they want some. services that cost money they can talk. to them about that. How important is it. for you know for example you're writing. a letter to the judge right. >> the difference in you know you guys. providing a well-written letter versus. someone who doesn't have that does how. big of impact that make. >> impact is different there every judge. has their own frame of mind and attitude.

>> um I think you know these letters and. doing them yourself not by AI because AI. letters don't do the trick I think the. process of putting the letter together. is very healthy because in my mind I. don't care so much I don't care so much. about how what the sentence level is. A. lot of that's set by formula and whether. they get a little less or a little more. That's not what's in my heart. What's in. my heart is turning them from that dark. moment of despair to reckoning what what. happened in a way that's honest and.

orderly and and gets them through this. process. It's very painful and can take. many years so that they come out the. other side and they're better than when. they started. I certainly am in better. shape now before I went through the. system. And a lot of people we work with. come out in the best physical, mental, intellectual, educational, spiritual. shape of their whole life. And you can. have that positive journey. And. sometimes putting it all together where.

you look at, okay, this trauma happened. to me was young. I grew up in a war. zone. I was sexually abused. My mother. was murdered in front of me. All these. things that I've heard about, you know, and that injured my thinking and it got. me off track. I developed a gambling. addiction, a drug addiction. I started. doing harm to myself. I was desperate. for money. I broke the law. Now I have. victims. Like, when you put it all. together in the right way, people can. survive their story. They can heal their.

hearts and their best days can be in. front of them. What advice would you. give someone who's let's say they're in. trouble? They're at a very very hard. time in their life. >> Well, first of all, uh don't break the. law. Following the law is a very good. idea. I really suggest it. So, following. the law is good. You know, taking basic. care of your health. Eat well. Don't. pour drugs or alcohol in your body. Don't get too isolated. Make sure you. stay connected. We're earth creatures.

We need other people. We want good. health. Our brain is just one organ in. our bodies. So if we're in a dark place, we're desparing, we're having dark. thoughts, doing harm to ourselves or. others. Don't have to stay in that. You. know that you're in your winter and the. spring is around the corner, but you got. to head towards the light. Don't stay. isolated. Don't keep secrets. You know, with a lot of people that are in in. trouble, you know, in recovery, we say. you're only as sick as your secrets. So.

isolation is bad. pouring drugs and. alcohol on your problems, on your. feelings, on anger, all of that bad. idea. You know, don't double down on the. harm. Look for people in your life that. feel safe, who are at peace. That can be. a teacher, that can be a sibling, that. can be a neighbor. Don't head towards. the darkness. If you're in a dark headsp. space, don't go online and look for more. darkness. Put the screen away. Come back.

to life. We want anybody who's in a dark. place that can hear my voice. We want. you back. We want you back. Head towards. the light, listen to my voice. There are. a lot of positive voices out there. We. want you to live. We want you to be. healthy. We want you to be well. And uh, you know, just keep heading in the right. direction. That's what I'd say. There's. a lot of love in the world. Even when I. was in jail, in one of the darkest times. of my life, there were angels in there. There was a psychiatrist who helped me. There was a farm tech that helped me.

There were other prisoners that helped. me. There are a lot of angels that you. can't see sometimes until you need them. But being o having your heart open, looking for peace and light. Don't. double down on the darkness. Don't bury. yourself in your room on your iPhones in. the darkness. Get out. Look for those. angels. They're all around. >> Thank you. >> How was that?