Teen Boy’s Snapchat & Party Pic Reveal His Secret Connection To Karen Read Murder Case-Did He Do It?

[Music]. Bada bing, bada boom. >> If you want something to disappear. forever, you're going to throw it in the. trash at a military base. And it kind of. makes sense. Military trash is very. different from regular civilian trash. Each US military base, they handle their. waste systems very differently. Some. overseas bases, they have burn pits. where they get their daily trash. Some. bases they have enough trash to fill two. and a half single family homes every. single day. Sometimes it's filled with.

medical waste, chemicals, paints, plastic, food, human feces. They just. round it up into a pile in the middle of. nowhere, pour jet fuel into it, and. light it on fire, potentially giving. everyone within like a few mile radius. lifelong complications like asthma, if. not just like straight up lung disease. They don't do that on US soil most of. the time. Here there are waste systems. in place and usually there are daily. pickups of trash at military bases and. they get taken to a very specific.

military landfill where they are then. separated and then eventually some of. the trash does end up with civilian. trash. But let's say you have your. entire life belongings of sentimental. value, your life savings, your passport. in a little baggie that someone. accidentally trashes at a military base. Your odds of finding that are slim to. none. You likely can't even voluntarily. search these military landfills. They. have controlled access limited to. authorized personnel only. Even if the. trash is still sitting at the bottom of.

the dumpster on the military base, you. would need a federal search warrant to. go in and look for it, which is perfect. for Brian to take his phone with all of. his text messages and call logs and then. his SIM card that he breaks in half. He. takes those two things and he tosses. them into the trash at a military base. That way, nobody will ever be able to. search his phone for anything that they. might want. And there's a lot on that. phone that people want because Brian was.

there the night that John O'Keefe. mysteriously died in the front lawn of. 34 Fair View. >> Brian Albert. >> Brian Higgins. Brian Higgins, >> which we haven't talked about at all, right? >> No. Okay. >> January 29th, 2022. John O'Keefe, a. Boston police officer is found outside. on the front lawn of another Boston. cop's house, Brian Albert. The night. before, everyone's having a gathering. there. John O'Keefe was driven there by. his girlfriend, Karen Reed, and that's. all we know. Everything else is up for.

debate. Everyone inside the house states. that John O'Keefe never came inside. They didn't even know that he was. deceased in the front lawn until the. next morning. In fact, even though there. were police cruisers, ambulances, fire. trucks, they didn't even know that. They. were asleep. Everyone in the house at the time of the. party says they never saw John O'Keefe. come inside. John's girlfriend Karen. Reed will say she saw him walk inside to. make sure that they're welcome and he. never walked back out. But this is not. Brian Albert that's trashing his phone.

This is one of Brian Albert's best. friends. Another Brian, Brian Higgins, a. federal ATF agent. >> ATF, >> alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. But it. doesn't necessarily mean that he's like. a higher rank. It's just a different. jurisdiction. I mean, I I some law. enforcement think that anyone with the. feds are higher in rank. >> But it really depends, >> right? But they don't work directly. together at all. They're just friends. >> Sometimes they'll have mini projects. together, but not directly. Sometimes. they'll work at the same police station.

because a lot of federal agents will. have floating offices. >> and they'll have like their own little. desk at a police station. >> because there's not a federal office in. every town. This Brian Higgins wanted. John O'Keeffe to come over that night. This is also the man who was interested. in dating Karen Reed. In fact, the two, Brian Higgins and Karen Reed shared a. kiss at John's house and ATF agent Brian. tells Karen that he wants the real deal.

This is all before Karen Reed ghosts. Brian Higgins. He was there the night at. the party and now he's throwing away his. phone at a military base. What exactly. is Brian Higgins hiding? And does he. have the strongest motive to want John. O'Keefe dead so that he can have Karen. Reed? [Music].

We would like to thank today's sponsors. who have made it possible for Rotten. Mango to support the Dana Farber Cancer. Institute in Boston, Massachusetts. They're a globally known cancer research. center that also provides support for. patients and families similar to John. O'Keefe's sister who had since passed. away from brain cancer. This episode's. partnerships have also made it possible. to support Rotten Mango's growing team. And we'd also like to thank you guys for. your continued support as we work on our.

mission to be worthy advocates. As. always, full show notes are available at. rottenopodcast.com. There are references of Driving under. the influence, alleged physical assault. Please watch at your own discretion. This episode is part two of the. four-part series spanning both of Karen. Reed's trials. Episode one is up now, and I'd highly recommend going to watch. that. It's it kind of establishes the. lay of the land and I know that every. single episode is just going to be a. deeper layer of suspicion. So, it's. like, okay, everything you thought we. knew in episode 1, it actually gets.

deeper and darker in episode 2. Even. though we're covering some of the same. territory, the way that people are. talking about specific things, it's very. fascinating the way that these witnesses. testify. So, if you've seen it or you're. coming from that episode, you may notice. that a few more people have been added. to the wall. We're going to be adding. more people as we get deeper into this. case. I just don't want to overload you. with faces right now. But before we do. that, I am going to do the briefest of. brief recaps. So, please go watch that. There's just no way that I can recap.

everything for you. Before we get into. the quick recap in order to cover the. vast span of both trials. So, there were. two trials for Karen Reed. The. Commonwealth of Massachusetts versus. Karen Reed. There was one trial ended in. a mistrial and then a second trial. In. order to cover both, many quotes and. statements from testimony and/or opening. closing statements have been shortened. and condensed for brevity. If you feel. like someone that should be on the wall. isn't on the wall yet, it's because I've. got a system for it. It's either coming. in the next episode or the last one,

which is going to be part four. Any. speculations, accusations, and. allegations discussed are representative. of Netzen theories that you can find. publicly online. We maintain that all. individuals are innocent until proven. guilty in a court of law. Most. importantly, I do want to be very clear. that John O'Keefe ultimately lost his. life. Our team in no way, shape or form. are purposely trying to shift importance. off of his death rather. And I think. quite frankly, please be aware that John. not being the primary focus of this case. as a whole is more of a reflection of. how this case has been handled and.

presented by the authorities involved. and not the way that we were researching. this case. So, with that being said, let's get into the brief recap. January. 29th, 2022, Karen Reed calls two people. The first one is Jen McCabe and the. second one is Carrie Roberts. And she. tells them John O'Keefe, her boyfriend. of 2 years, has not come home last. night. And she's freaking out. It's like. 5:00 in the morning. They were getting. drunk last night at a bar. They were all. hanging out with friends. Jen was there. Carrie was not. And she's freaking out. She doesn't know what to do. She calls.

them. They start searching for Jon. They. go back to John's house. They're. searching here and there. Karen is. allegedly a mess the entire time. She's. screaming. She's frantic. She's. hysterical. She keeps repeating the same. things. Some people say that she was. saying things like, "Could I have hit. him?" Other people are saying, "She said. I hit him." Like a declaration, a. confession of sorts. Eventually, they. make it back to 34 Fairview Road. This. is a very important address. It's a. single family home owned by none other. than Brian Albert and his wife Nicole.

Albert, who also happens to be Jen. McCabe's sister. So, they're blood. relatives. This is Jen McCabe's. brother-in-law. They were all going to. his house after the bar last night. Karen and John included. So, Jon is in. Karen's car. They roll up to the house. Karen says, "Hey, we get to the house. We've never been here before. We had to. call Jen to get instructions to even get. here. And once we get here, it doesn't. look that welcoming." And like, "Are you. sure we're invited?" She asks Jon to go. inside to check and make sure everything.

is good. She stays in her car. Jon goes. inside. She's saying she saw him walk. towards the front door and then he never. comes outside. She's getting agitated. Her stomach hurts. She's not feeling. well. She doesn't know any of these. people. John knows them because he's a. Boston cop. Brian Albert's a Boston cop. They're all cops. Karen, she's an asset. manager. She's not a part of this cop. world. And so she decides, I'm just. going to leave him because he's kind of. making me mad. He hasn't checked up on.

me. He hasn't opened the door and said, "Come in. He hasn't texted me." So, as. she's driving home, she leaves a series. of very angry voicemails calling John. O'Keefe a pervert, telling him to go. himself, telling him that he's a loser, telling him that she's going to leave. his niece and nephew, who he has custody. over, home alone, and she's going to go. back to her own place because she's over. this. She does not indeed do any of. that. She goes back to John's house. where Jon's niece is sleeping and she. falls asleep on the couch and wakes up. at 4:00 and he's still not home.

She calls Jen McCabe and she says, "Hey, John's not home." Jen McCabe tells her. something along the lines of, "What are. you talking about? He never came to 34. Fairview." So Karen naturally starts. freaking out, calls Jon's childhood best. friend, who he also went to prom with, Carrie Roberts, and they go on like a. little early morning search party. through a blizzard. This is blizzard. conditions at this point. It wasn't last. night when they got to 34 Fair View, but.

it is this morning. They start driving. all over the place, and Carrie and Jen. say Karen's weird. As they're driving. back to 34 Fair View, they say that. Karen just starts screaming. I see him. I see him. She's kicking at the door to. get out. She runs outside into the snow. onto the front lawn of Brian Albert's. house and they just see a mound of snow. They get out the car. They say they move. the snow off and there is John O'Keefe.

laying in the snow. Paramedics are. called to the scene. Police officers are. called to the scene and it becomes this. whole ordeal of initially people. thought, well, people didn't really know. what to think. They just knew that a. police officer was found deceased in. front of the lawn of another Boston cop. And it doesn't make any sense. He's got. some injuries to his head and his arms. that don't make any sense. It doesn't. make sense how he ended up in the front. lawn. Did he go in the house? Did he not. go in the house? That's the biggest. debate. When law enforcement officers, they start interviewing witnesses that.

were inside the house. They all say John. O'Keefe never came in the house. So that. must mean that Karen is the last person. that knows what happened to John, right? Well, she's saying, "No, he went into. the house." Who are we to believe in. this situation? You would think maybe. it's numbers. Maybe it's all the people. in the house. There's a handful of them. versus just Karen, right? You would. initially think that. However, everyone. in this town is connected. All these. investigating officers here in this dark. blue color. They're all somehow friendly.

with the Albert family. The Albert. family is the most well-connected family. in the little town of Canton, Massachusetts. His brother Kevin Albert. is a Canton police detective. His other. brother Chris Albert is one of five. Canton selectmen who oversee the entire. Canton Police Department. Then the state. troopers. So there's many different law. enforcement agencies that get involved. The state troopers, they're not Canton. PD, they're Massachusetts State Police, right? However, they are all somehow.

connected to Julie Albert who's Chris. Albert's wife. So, they're all. interwoven, interconnected. Everybody. went to high school with one another. Everybody's kids play on the same. baseball team together. Everybody is. friends with everybody except for Karen. Karen is not friends with any of these. people. And all of these people have now. decided that Karen ran over John O'Keefe. in the front lawn of another Boston. cop's home, drove home, leaving angry. voicemails, and left her boyfriend of 2.

years to die on the lawn. That is the. theory. But is that really what. happened? February 26, 2022. So this is. almost nearly exactly a month after John. O'Keefe has passed. At this point, Karen. has been arrested, released on bail. So. there's a lot developing, but there is. this picture taken of three guys at a. bar. And the only one that really. matters is the guy in the middle. And. these these guys, I don't even know if I. can call them guys. They look incredibly. young. They look like boys. Now, the guy.

in the middle, he's got a black baseball. cap on backwards. He's got both of his. arms around his friends. They look they. look like fat boys. And his right hand, if you look at his right hand, his right. knuckles are just bright red pink. >> Knuckles are pink. >> Knuckles are pink. >> Like it was injured. >> Yeah. What? How would your knuckles get. pink? >> You punch something, right? And you got. to punch something very hard for them to. stay pink. Right.

>> now, that guy in the middle is none. other. >> than 17-year-old Colin Albert. Son. >> 17. >> 17 son of Chris Albert and Julie Albert. So this is the nephew of Brian Albert. Brian and Chris are brothers. >> Uh-huh. >> So this is the nephew of Brian and. Nicole Albert. And nizens think that. this 17-year-old was the one that killed. John O'Keefe. that night and Karen's. attorneys seem to think so too because.

defense attorney Alan Jackson, he gets. up on the podium and he starts asking. Colin on the stand because Colin is. called to testify by the government, "What happened to your knuckles in this. picture?" Colin is sitting on the. witness stand. He looks like a like a. regular fraternity brother, but he's. dressed in a collared shirt with a. sweater on top. It's giving defendant, but he's on the witness stand. I was at. a party, a house party my senior year, and I remember it being icy outside, and. it was kind of like a steep hill of a. driveway, and I was walking up the.

driveway. So, he's walking up an icy. driveway. >> Mhm. >> And I slipped down the driveway. I tried. to catch myself, but I had something in. my left hand, so I tried to brace myself. with my right hand, but I ended up. landing straight on my knuckle. So, he's. slipping on the ice, and he lands on his. knuckle. >> Crazy story. >> Like this. And the the your reaction is the. reaction of everyone including Alan. Jackson who says according to you, you. fell on ice and injured your knuckles as.

we just saw in the photograph. Just the. across the top of your knuckles. Correct. So you fell onto what? Pavement, asphalt. Yeah. And you braced. yourself when you fell your entire body. weight by putting your right hand down. in a fist. And you injured your right. fist. just the top of your knuckles on. your right fist when you fell down. Correct. At this point, Alan Jackson is. known for being um a pretty aggressive. cross-examiner during all of these.

trials because he will make a lot of. comments that he's not allowed to make. and the judge will keep the judge Auntie. Bev will keep having to strike his. comments because at this point his story. is so ridiculous. Alan Jackson hits him. with a seriously. >> and you braced yourself when you fell. your entire body weight by putting your. right hand down in a fist and you. injured your right fist just the top of. the knuckles on your right fist when you. fell down. >> Correct.

>> Seriously. >> Ejection your arm. >> sustained. That's his question. Seriously, you fell your entire body. weight on your right fist and you just. injured the top portion of your. knuckles. You didn't break a finger. You. didn't break a knuckle. You didn't. sprain your wrist. Nothing. Correct. You ever been in a fight. before? The defense shows yet another. photo. There is a picture of Colin with. his arm around another person and his. knuckles are scratched up again. And. it's always just the right hand. So, it's not the left and the right, it's.

just his right hand. And that picture. was apparently taken just a few days. after John's death. So there's a picture. taken a few days after John's death. where his knuckles are pink and then. another one taken a month after where. his knuckles are pink. Now why is this. relevant? That's what everyone's trying. to figure out because initially when. everyone inside the house during this. little blizzard party January 29th, 2022, nobody mentions Colin being inside. that house. He is never mentioned, not.

once, by any of the partygoers. Well, actually, one partygoer. This one right. here, Julie Nagel, friend of birthday. boy Brian Albert Jr., Julie Nagel does. mention to state trooper Proctor, that. Colin was in the house that night. You. know what state trooper Proctor does? He. omits that from his initial reports. So, it seems like every single person. involved does not want Colin to be at.

the house. >> So, how did we find out Julie said that? >> Karen ends up hiring a private. investigator and they start going door. to door to try and see if there is. absolutely anyone who saw or heard. absolutely anything. And this is when a. local mentions. So, his daughter. allegedly dated Colin Albert at one. point and she was talking about how he. was there. He was there at 34 Fair View. that night. And so Karen is like, "That's actually crazy because nobody. puts him there at all ever.".

>> Is that information usable in court or. is that just their own little. >> I think it came out before the trial. happened. So eventually everyone was. like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He. was there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see. I. see.". >> So when everyone testifies now, they're. like, "Yeah, he was there." But he left. exactly at 12:10 a.m., which is before. John O'Keefe even gets to the house. So, there's a lot that people have to say. about Colin Albert, but it is confirmed. he was there the night that John O'Keefe. died. So, why is everyone leaving him.

out of the initial witness list? Like, is that intentional? That also doesn't. explain how in 2023, so this is a year. after John's passing during a federal. grand jury, Colin shows up. He's forced. to be there. He's forced to testify. And. the person asking questions notices that. his knuckles, specifically his right. hand knuckles, are scraped up. >> still. >> So, it seems like another injury just to. his right hand. Now, everybody's. wondering, how often does this little.

kid get into fights? And did he get into. a fight with Jon the night that John. died? Is he the one that everyone here, all the Mc Alberts are trying to. protect, or are they trying to protect. Brian Higgins? Was Colin Aubberg the. only person that everyone's omitting or. >> Yes. And there is an invisible car with. Brian Higgins. So, there's a lot. happening with these two. And people. have different theories. Some people. think the Mc Alberts are protecting. Brian Higgins. Some people think the Mc.

Alberts are protecting Colin. Some. people think it's a combination of both. >> Okay? Because there is a picture of. Colin with swollen knuckles, but there's. also a picture of Brian Higgins stopping. by the Canton Police Department right. after leaving the party. He leaves 34. Fairview Road. He's off duty. He's. drunk. And he drives to Canton Police. Department. He's an ATF agent, but he's. got an office at the Canton Police. Department because his best friend is. the chief of the Canton Police. >> So, middle of the night. >> Yeah. >> He went into the office for what?

>> 1:00 in the morning. He goes into the. office. He says he's going in there to. move his cars, but he spends quite a bit. of time in the police station. And on. top of that, there is some CCTV footage. that is released and some people have. zoomed in and they believe that his. knuckles look a little swollen and red. >> What? Okay. >> There is this reality show. It's a TV. series called Boston's Finest. It lasted. two seasons. It's about Boston police. officers. Now, I'm just going to give. you a quick recap of all the different. law enforcement agencies investigating.

or and or involved in this. So you've. got Boston police which is John O'Keefe. was a Boston police officer and then. Brian Albert is part of Boston PD. He is. the head of the fugitive unit where he. was. And then you've got the Canton. police. This all happens in the town of. Canton. So they commute to work in. Boston but this is 30 minutes away in. Canton. So the chief of police is. Kenneth and then a lot of these people. in dark blue. So Sean Good, Paul. Gallagher, Michael Link. These are all.

Canton police officers as well as Kevin. Albert. And then you've got the. Massachusetts State Police. So you went. from local town, then you got big city. of Boston, and then now you got the. state of Massachusetts. You have these. three state troopers, Tuli, Buchanan, and Proctor. Proctor, do you remember. him from part one? No nudes. Proctor. >> No nudes so far. >> Exactly. Okay. So these are the three. And then you've got a fourth agency, the. feds. The FBI are investigating the.

investigation into John O'Keefe's death. They're not even just investigating John. O'Keefe's death. They're investigating. the investigation into his death because. all these people are shady. Every single. one here, maybe not the people in the. white backgrounds, but all the dark blue. wall of shame at this point. And we're. going to get more in depth in part three. because the way that these people are. connected is criminal. >> And then the dark blue background are. the ones that's currently working on the. case and the light blues are the.

officers that's not investigating the. case, >> but they are involved in the case. >> Right. Right. Right. >> Yes. So the dark blue are investigating. officers. >> Mhm. >> This show is kind of like a documentary. It's like a day in my life as a Boston. cop. I mean with a lot more background. music. it it's filmed really well and. featured on there consistently is Brian. Albert, a much younger Brian Albert. He. is the owner of 34 Fair View, Boston Cop. head of fugitive unit. In the show, he. he says a lot of really intense things.

like he gives a lot of quippy oneliners. Violent felons, they will do just about. anything to get away. Some are going to. try to run. Some are going to try to. hide. Sometimes it's diving out windows. They're going to do whatever they can to. avoid capture. Throughout season one, you see Brian Albert trying to lead his. team and make sure they're not in. trouble. And he says about conducting. search warrants in people's homes. It's. one of the most dangerous things you can. do is go into somebody else's house. He. says the person you're looking for, that's their castle. If they wanted to.

assault you, they know the places to. hide. Sometimes you take a deep breath, you stick your head in there, and just. hope that you don't hear a pop. They. explain that finding fugitives is very. meticulous work. I mean, you're looking. for people that other cops couldn't. find. He says, "We're the unit that gets. called when somebody's wanted for a. serious crime, mostly violent crimes, and they're on the run. That's our. specialty. That's the purpose of our. unit, and we do a pretty good job at it. It's not easy, but there's a method to. the madness." And he gives a few tips. throughout the show. So, in the show, Brian Albert states, "The rule is.

simple. You follow the love interest.". Brian Higgins, aka ATF Brian, he's a. federal agent in the alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives. It feels like. nobody really knows what an ATF agent. does. Some say that they take down. massive gun running organizations. Others say they say they do that, but. they don't actually do anything. So, they're basically a federal gang agency. is what they say. Um, you can interpret. that however you want. Some people.

interpret that as they take down gangs. because gangs are often, you know, they. typically have violent firearms and. other weapons in their possession or. they're a gang of agents and they. basically just shoot dogs. There have. been numerous incidents where pet dogs. have been injured or shot and killed. during ATF raids. And do you remember. Waco? ATF had a 51-day standoff with a. cult in Waco, Texas. And ultimately, it. ended with 70 people dying, including. children. And some of the first shots.

fired by ATF were aimed at the pet dogs. in the compound. And it's becoming like. this running joke in law enforcement. communities apparently when the ATF. comes hydra dogs. ATF Brian is stationed. in Canton, but he's a federal agent. He. does not work for Canton PD. He does not. work for Boston PD or with the state. troopers. He is familiar with a lot of. them though. Like he's friends with all. these guys. These are the people that he. hangs out with because he lives in. Canton. and he also knows John O'Keefe. They've known each other for maybe a.

year. I mean, they've never really. worked together, but they run in the. same circles. They go to the same bars. That's how they've met. Now, I have no. idea how friendship works in this small. town. Because ATF Brian says that he. wasn't that close to John, but exactly 2. weeks before John's death, ATF Brian is. over at John O'Keefe's house watching a. Patriots game. Hm. >> There's even text messages from that. night where John and ATF Brian are. texting. You know, John is like, "Was it. really necessary to introduce Hennessy. XO?" ATF Brian is like, "Was I really.

playing video games?" John says, "I. blame Karen. Please tell me I didn't. break your nephew's video game. If I. did, I will replace it. Did I throw a. controller or some [ __ ] I don't think. so." Which makes it sound like they had. a good night. Just boys watching sports, getting drunk, breaking things. But it's. also the day that ATF Brian Higgins and. Karen. kiss behind John O'Keefe's back. So. exactly 2 weeks before Jon O'Keefe's. passing, they share a kiss inside John's.

house. >> How did we find out about that? >> He tells us. >> in court. >> Oh yeah. So January 12th, 2022. This is. >> like 2 weeks before, right? >> Yeah. 2 and 1/2 weeks before Jon. O'Keefe's passing at around 8:27 p.m. he. gets a text message. Brian Higgins gets. a text message from a random number. The. text reads, "Hey, Brian, it's Weed. Whacker." He text question mark. What do. you mean Weed Whhwhacker? But ATF Brian. is testifying. I mean, I kind of knew.

who it was because that was my nickname. for her, >> Karen Reed. I mean, he says it's a funny. story. He was driving around in his work. car, so all the windows are tinted. And. he sees Karen outside using a weed. whacker. It's like a little machine that. cuts the weeds. And he honks at her and. she flicks him off. She has no clue who. it is. It's just like a random person. honking at her. So he drives back. around. He U-turns to be like, "Oh, wait. Hey, Karen. I'm, you know, John's. friend, Brian. ATF Brian. Uh, I didn't. mean to like freak you out, but she.

starts screaming at the car, not knowing. it's ATF Brian." And she says, "Get the. [ __ ] away from me. My husband's a Boston. cop. ATF Brian rolls the window all the. way down and that's when she's like, "Oh, okay. Never mind. You're John's. friend. I didn't know. >> this was a while ago or okay.". >> So that is why she gets the funny. nickname of Weed Whacker. And she texts. him, "Hey Brian, it's weed whacker." He. responds question mark. And I will say. that every single text message in this. thread is read out loud by Brian.

Higgins, who has a very strong Boston. accent. It's a very interesting. combination of his very seriousness. and his red face, but also the nature of. the text messages are uncomfortable. >> because I don't know why they text like. teenage kids. >> Hey Brian, it's weed whacka. >> He texts a picture of a smiroff. screwdriver. It's an alcoholic beverage. And then capital yo, yo, there's no. response. And the next day, did you try. these Smirnoff screwdrivers? I stopped.

at the Hilly, which is a local. restaurant, for one last night. >> I said, "Haha, how did you get my. digits?" Um, defendant responded, "The. Melissa and Leo show." I said, "Haha, I thought you creep John's phone." I. said, "Haha, again, >> haha, no way." And she does a girl with. the crossed arms emoji. I was the last. person in Greater Canton who didn't have. your number. I think even Carrie has it. Side note, not Carrie Roberts, a. different Carrie. And he's like, "What? I just don't give out my personal number. to anyone. How would Carrie have my.

number? I don't know. Melissa had it. Eventually, they start talking back. about the nickname. And she says, >> the defendant said, I'd prefer weed. whacka. I responded, "That's the thing. about nicknames." Um, you don't have a. say. And I believe I was referring to. nicknames. >> I know they need to happen organically. I'm the queen of nicknames. >> Wait, so they met, I'm assuming, months. ago? They met months ago at a bar. through John O'Keefe. >> So John O'Keefe and ATF Brian run in the.

same circles and John O'keefee would. introduce Karen to all of his friends. And so Karen's not really part of this. cop world. It's through John O'Keefe. that she met meets all these people. >> Yeah. Yeah. And one day he drove by. Beep beep. They talked. I'm assuming. soon after Karen text him. >> and they sound flirtatious. >> Very flirtatious. Karen just changes the. topic abruptly. We were tossing around. the idea of a short vacay with another. couple. Wanted to see if you were game. Vacation where? I was just going to rent. a beach house in Fort Lauderdale. Something quick and easy. Hm. I'm the.

queen of vacays, too. Always a good. time. He's like, I'm going to Nashville. next month, 19th to the 21st, for a. benefit. One of our guys got shot in the. head. You guys should come. Just like a. crazy text message to send. Later on. January 13th, Karen sends a picture of a. guy struggling to use a weed whacker. And texts ATF Brian, "You're not a. creep." And he says, "Nope, you're kind. of a loner, which I used to be." No, not. really. I have tons of buddies, but I.

only let a handful of friends in that. I'm tight with. So, you think you've got. me all figured out? Karen says, "Yeah, I. said loner, not loser. I assume you know. a lot of people. You can never really. figure anyone out completely. Your dad. died when you were young." question mark. question mark. He died in March of 2020. I'm so not a loser. You won't figure me. out. Lol. No one's a loser. I just. didn't mean loner to imply friendless. I'm sorry that sounds recent. It wasn't. co, was it? Cancer. I know you date. girls who don't lock the house behind.

them and you're private and observant. And then she says, I'm sorry, what kind? So, they're having like simultaneous. conversations talking about his dad's. passing but also talking about Brian's. dating habits. Lung, brain, kidney, pelvis. How did you know all those. things? You're funny. >> Mhm. >> Text messages are a lot. >> Yeah. >> Yikes. Wow, that's rough. Jesus. I'm. sorry. We chat a lot at the hillside. Don't be sorry. Life is hard sometimes. I always figure it out. Who chats? Life.

is hard, but losing people is the. hardest. So, I'm sorry. We chat. That's. all you got? We chat. Sure. I mean, you're from Brockton. Spit it out. You. and I chatted about the girl who kept. forgetting to lock the door. Oh, she's. been out of play for like 3 months now. And so they're like having this. flirtation of talking about people that. are quote out of rotation in ATF Brian's. circle of girls. Yeah. >> And uh ATF Brian finally tells her that. he got a Saturday invite from John.

O'Keefe to come to John O'Keefe's house. that Saturday to watch the Patriots. game. Karen is like, "Did you say yes?". Not yet. What did you say, Mr. Elusive? >> I responded, "No, I just don't want to. intrude on your couples night." Haha, I'm shy. We prefer to hang out with. non-ouples. Bob Galleria is probably. coming too solo. We'll probably play. cards or something at one point, so I'm. inviting you. Haha. Later, Karen texts. him. John said, quote, "Brian's being. wishy-washy." Haha. Did you tell him you.

texted me? No. ATF Brian gives a thumbs. up. And this is when we head into very. um I would say Karen is a little. sensitive to the word affair because. she's saying, you know, I'm not married. John O'Keefe's not married. We're not. married. It's not really an affair. And. she also says that John O'Keefe was. allegedly flirting with other girls, too. So, she feels like it's a it's. affair is a strong word, but we do get. into like that emotional cheating. territory where she says, "Well, don't.

be so anti-ouple. Most couples don't. even like each other." He says, "Name a. few." Name a few. I don't know all of. them, but they all want to hang out with. single people. Later in the messages, it. seems like this might be when he comes. over for the Patriots game because ATF. Brian texts Karen, "Foul ball." She. texts him, "You stink." He says, "You. suck and you're double trouble.". >> Defendant responded, "You're hot." I. responded, "Are you serious or messing.

with me?" Defendant responded, "No, I'm. serious." I responded, "Failing is. mutual. Is that bad? How long have you. thought that?". >> So, this is Brian. He's like, "I also. feel like you're so hot. Is that bad? Because I'm friends with John O'Keefe. How long have you thought about that?". And she's like, "Are you okay driving? You don't want to just stay here?" So, Karen is offering for Brian to stay at. John O'Keefe's house with them. >> They sound drunk, right? >> Yeah. I'm fine. I have an office at the. police station. You didn't answer the. question. She says, "I'd rather you stay.

here." ATF Brian testifies on the stand. that as he's leaving John O'Keefe's. house that night, he says goodbye to. John and John might have gone to use the. restroom or something. He's not entirely. sure, but he says as we were walking. out, the defendant planted a kiss on me. >> So, as I was exiting um the house and as. we were walking out, the defendant. planted a kiss on me. >> He's asked by the prosecution. Lai, how. did she kiss you? Not like a friend. He. says it was lipto lip like a romantic.

kiss. ATF Brian says he was taken aback. because it just was not something that. he was expecting. And later he texts. Karen, "I think you're messing with me.". Why do you think that? Because this is. so out of left field. Where did these. feelings come from? I just think you're. like me. Meaning, do you have your own. kids? I have no kids. How am I like you? Um, hello. Aren't we alike? I think so. So, why did you get my number and reach. out to me? Shoot straight with me. I. told you. I just think we're alike. Yes,

agree. I don't know. Shouldn't you know? Brian admits that he's had a crush on. Karen since the first time he met her. And she responds with, "This is like the. most lukewarm confession of a crush." "I. don't know. You're just my type. You. think you can handle me?" I thought you. were happy. How do you know if I'm. happy? I just assumed. Are you hard to. handle? What do you like about me? And. this is when Karen has sent the now.

viral text message where Brian says, "What do you like about me?" And Karen. Reed responds wholeheartedly, "I just. feel like you're from my neighborhood.". >> "What do you like about me?" Defendant. responded, "I just feel like you're from. my neighborhood.". >> Wait, what does that mean? Like, >> nobody knows. It's like the most. lukewarm confession of interest that the. world has ever heard in a murder trial.

Like usually you have like very. passionate text message that the. prosecutor is trying to bring up and. it's just like I feel like you're from. my neighborhood and people didn't know. how to respond because the severity of. the context that these text messages are. being read in is very severe. This is a. murder trial. But at the same time, it's. like it's very hard to wrap your mind. around that these are the text messages. that everybody has to treat very. seriously because the energy in the. courtroom is also very um Okay. >> So like Adam Lai just didn't follow up.

much on that. >> No, she's just like, "Why do I like you? We're like from the same zip code, bro. Like what do you want me to say?" That's. the energy. And he says, "Ditto. >> Ditto. >> Ditto. And she says, "I just think. you're hot." Brian's all, "You really. think that? I have always thought that. about you." What? You're hot, smart, witty? But I didn't think you were. interested. Witty? Yeah. Meaning quick. with a response. Tell me why you got my.

number and reached out to me. I just. thought we were the same and from the. same neighborhood. Are you afraid to say what's on your. mind? This whole text message exchange. is very hard to listen to. I think that. the government thought it was going to. have the same effect as Michael Proctor. reading out his messages of no nudes so. far and all of these things, but I think. the general energy of these two. messaging each other, it's bad. I do.

think it's bad because Karen is clearly. having a relationship to some degree. outside of her relationship with John. O'Keefe and she's accused of murdering. John O'Keefe. So, it is bad. It is. serious. However, it feels almost. juvenile when you see this ATF agent on. the stand reading them out loud one by. one. >> I said, "Haha, how did you get my. digits?" Haha, I'm shy. And I said, "Haha." I said, "Haha." I said, "Haha. again.". >> And it also seems like both parties are. into it. Even ATF Brian, I mean, this is.

his friend's girlfriend and he's just. quote, "I will give you what you want. How are you texting me right now? Are. you leaving me hanging? How am I. texting? Is everyone asleep? I'm just. wide awake on my phone. Yeah, they're. asleep. I should have stayed. Lol. So, now what? Yeah, you should have stayed. But he's saying, "That would have been. so distracting. Now what?" He keeps. asking things like, "Now what? Why'd you. get my number? What do you see in me?". And Karen is like, "Now what? What? Balls in your court. What do you want?".

Loaded question. What do you want? I. asked you. Nope. You initiated this. Spit it out. Hey, we're single and we. don't have kids. We can do whatever we. want. Don't you have a boyfriend? Karen. just completely changes the topic and. she says, "I'm glad you came over. tonight to watch the Patriots game." And. she does like a shy blushing emoji and. he says, "Me, too. Balls in your court. What do you want, Karen? You looked. great tonight." It almost seems like. he's a little bit more excited about the.

situation than Karen is. Karen seems, if. anything, a little non-committal. I know. that she started the interactions, but. it I mean, I don't know. As a girl. reading it, it just sounds like she's. not that into it, but you tell me in the. comments. And she's like, "I looked. great. You're so full of it. >> I think you're hot. I've always thought. that. Just never revealed my thoughts.". And Karen says, "I'm hot for the. hillside, the area. Low comps. Knock it. off. You're hot. Period. Are you glad.

you walked me out?" So he's now asking. about the kiss they shared and she's. like um ta yes smiley face are you? And. it's just the whole thing is. uncomfortable and he just keeps saying. things like feeling is mutual. I never. saw this coming. Why? Because I just. assumed you were happy with your. situation. I was but things have. deteriorated. How so? It's very very complicated. So, at this point, if um quick reminder,

John O'Keefee has two siblings, Paul. O'Keefe and Christian. Now, his sister. passed away from cancer. She left behind. a daughter and a son. And then a few. months after her husband passed away. >> Mhm. >> So, he took on his niece and nephew. He. took custody over them. He's raising. them as his own. And Karen is has been. dating John O'Keefe for the past 2 years. now. and she says he and I dated when we. were kids. So, prior to this, they had. actually dated. >> Oh. When they were young.

>> Yeah. Very briefly. And then during the. pandemic, Karen came back into town and. he was sending Facebook messages to all. of his ex-girlfriends. And Karen. actually thought like, "Wo, why are you. messaging me when your whole Facebook. page is filled with you and children? Like, you probably have a wife." And. then she reconnected with him, found out. that he had taken in his niece and. nephew, and that's how they rekindled. their whole relationship. We're going to. go into that in the next part cuz. there's a whole thing with how Jonno's. family interacts with her the day that. he passes away. And she also gets.

admitted into the hospital. She gets. sectioned into the hospital, meaning um. they think that she's a danger to. herself. >> She says it's very complicated. He and I. dated when we were kids and then his. sister died and everything goted up. >> He seems very into you. Yeah, but where. is that? I mean, I've had all my [ __ ]. here for a couple of years, and my house. has been vacant, but I'd like to get. closer to the water. Are you breaking up. or are you staying here? I don't know. He hooked up with another girl on.

vacation. I'm very close to his niece, and it's all a very up situation. When. was that? And how did you find out he. hooked up? I don't want to complicate. your situation. We went away for New Year's, the four of. us. So, she's saying it was her, John, and the two kids. I put the kids to bed. and found him in the lobby of our hotel. all over one of our friends. Whatever. It doesn't matter. It does matter. >> And I said, "Did they bang?". The defendant responded, "Does that. matter?" I said, "Sorry, I was just.

asking. I was just trying to figure [ __ ]. out." Defendant responded, >> "It doesn't really matter." Okay, I. won't ask again. I don't care. It. doesn't matter. Okay, hear you loud and. clear, Karen. Uh, okay. Why are you. getting your thong all twisted up over. simple questions? She responds, I'm not. Am I? You're kind of getting defensive. Not at all. Eventually, Karen asks what. Brian Higgins wants and he responds he.

wants the real deal. To which she's kind. of cynical. She says it doesn't exist. Sometimes it's a lot. A lot. Why? He's. like asking her a lot. Why? Because I. went from being solo to trying to give. attention to kids who aren't mine. And I. never wanted kids. I thought you were. happy in this relationship. Everybody is. happy at the hillside. Oh god, you avoid things. It's just a. very complicated dynamic with the four. of us. He isn't cut out for what he's.

doing, and the kids present constant. issues. I think he believes he's doing. the right thing. Well, of course he is, but his heart isn't in it. It's only. because he was very, very close with his. sister. I know kind of how you feel. I. was married. So, Brian was married. previously and his ex-wife had brought. in a child from a previous marriage. And. he said that he's been divorced since. 2017 and he has no kids anymore cuz they. got a divorce. >> Mhm. >> And she says, "I tried very hard, but. the kids are very spoiled. They're not. my family. My parents keep telling me.

I'd feel differently if they were mine. or my own sisters." You know, then I. told you he got sloppy and drunk on New. Year's Eve while we were away. And. that's really affected me. What exactly. did he do? I never got married and now. somehow I'm arguing with someone about. raising kids. Eye rolling emoji. Why. don't you just tell me? He was a puddle. all day and then he disappeared. Then I. found him all over our friend's sister. in the lobby of our hotel and she's. gross. Which I think may actually be. worse. Not sure. Oh god, did they bang?

I'm not sure. I was with the kids. So, I. was I was with the kids celebrating New. Year's without him, which shouldn't be. my role, but I doubt that they did it. I. mean, he was a mess. Was it the first. time with her? Do you think there was. others? I don't really think there were. others. I'm with him all the time. He. never seems to want to go anywhere. without me. But honestly, the issues. with the kids bother me more than him. actually cheating. They are constant, and it feels like a lose-lose. Genuinely, it's starting to feel like. Karen is just using him as a therapist.

and not actually interested in Brian. Higgins at all. And he even notices that. you clearly have a lot of feelings. swarming inside of you. Yeah, it's very. complicated. Sorry for the rant. You can. vent, babe. >> Oh, >> wait. This is all from the night, the. same night. >> Yeah. >> Dang. Okay. >> It's like in the span of 9 days they go. through all of this. >> And she's like, basically, I just feel. like I spread myself too thin and. sometimes it's thankless. Now, I will. say there might be some validity to her. feelings. I don't think that I'm not.

saying any of these messages are. appropriate. However, there were rumors. in Canton and Jen had semiconfirmed it. that everybody called Karen and this is. so mean girl coded a glorified. babysitter for John O'Keefe. >> Really? How did we find out Jen said. that? >> Jen was like, "Yeah, that's what Carrie. said about her.". >> Carrie Roberts, John O'Keefe's childhood. best friend. >> Got it. >> Now, during that time, you had indicated. uh that you had heard a statement uh.

that you said was horrified you in some. way. Is that correct? So basically. Carrie is a talker. She said something. like John really loved Amy and in my. eyes Karen was just a babysitter with. benefits. And so she's saying I mean you. probably felt that way too when you were. married. I did. I mean at times but it. was one kid not two thankfully. Do you. want to grab a drink? So they start kind. of planning to hang out at one point and. there are suspicions. Now, Karen has. spoken out in a documentary about these.

text messages, and she said it was bad. She said, first of all, she has only. ever met ATF Brian at bars in bar. lighting. Okay. She says it's very. different from not bar lighting. And on. top of that, >> crazy. >> Yeah, that's a crazy statement. And on. top of that, she says she's not proud of. it, but she was just very emotionally. insecure. And I can see how that. portrays in the text messages. Like it. doesn't feel disconnected from the text. messages. There are certain points where.

he's saying like, "Do you get angry when. you don't get your way?" And she she. texts him, "I rarely ever get my way.". Seems like all of her messages are a. little bit on the more depressing side. However, this message, I think a lot of. people, a lot of netizens feel that. Karen was just trying to use Brian to. get Jon to like her more or to chase. after her more or want her more. And is. that something that we should be doing? Probably not. But the message reads,

"John has showed me about five times the. ring video of me walking you out on. Saturday. My voice and accent are. killing me softly." Throwing up emoji. Wait, John has show Karen. Wait, what? >> Ring video of her walking Brian Higgins. out of his house the day of the Patriots. game. >> That's weird. >> And he says, um, what? Yeah, he has. cameras everywhere. You cops. Rolling. eye emoji. >> Like the kissing thing, too. >> He's freaking out. He says, Jesus. He.

And then Karen says he's like, Christ, are you guys hooking up? Oh my god. Great. I don't need drama, dude. No, it's fine. Seriously, I'm serious. You. You legit planted one on me, saying you. lit literally kissed me. And Karen says, "I know where the cameras are anyway. Duh.". >> Wait, so she's implying the kiss is not. on there. >> Yeah, implying the kiss is not on there, but I guess that they were appearing. friendly. >> Right. Right. >> That John is saying something to her.

about it. And the way that she's texting. almost seems like that was the purpose, >> right? >> It's kind of the vibe. >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like she's not. bothered by it. Like, hey, by the way, John was jealous about it. >> She's not like, "Keep it on the like. keep it down low. Don't say anything. He's already on to us." Like, she's not. saying any of that. It almost seems. like, >> he it worked. Is the energy of the text. >> And Brian is feeling that, too, right? You planned it on me. Like, >> yeah, he seems a little more startled. than Karen does. >> And she says, "I know where all the.

cameras are." And he's like, "So, your. slick move wasn't on there?" Of course. not. Oh my god, I almost threw up. It. was just a peck. Anyway, I kissed Carrie. and gay Jeff, too. Yeah, weak. I agree. He's saying the kiss was weak. Lol. Funny. So, now he's jealous of me. No, I. told you he likes you a lot. Which makes. it worse. You said or did something at. the bar last week and he goes, I like. Brian more and more. He's a good dude, too. Yeah, he is funny. What's your. endgame? What do you want from me? you.

will just confuse the out of yourself. because I'm a lot of fun. And so Karen. is just like, "What is happening right. now?" They start texting about how. they're maybe going to go out for drinks. or go to each other's places for drinks. Karen even says, "I'm 42. I know what. happens when you invite someone over for. a drink." He calls her a master of. avoidance. And they have this little. like back and forth nonstop. So Karen's saying that I know what. happens if we go to your our houses and. she's not saying yes to the house.

>> She does eventually go to ATF Brian's. house. >> Mhm. >> And he says it was really uncomfortable. and awkward. >> Like I said, it was it was this type of. like what is this all about? And then. she left. >> Like they just repeat the same. conversations that they were having over. text message. And again, this is why a. lot of netizens feel like was it. appropriate for Karen to do this? Absolutely not. Was this a good thing to. do? No. But it does indeed feel like she. is not interested in Brian Higgins.

>> The intention, not the intention, what. is it? Is there a motive, for example, for Karen to murder. >> John O'Keefe. >> for a another guy? That's kind of. >> text message. Yeah. >> So, that's kind of how the prosecution. is showing it. Like she's ready to move. on. She doesn't like John O'Keefe, but. when you actually read the text. messages, it's kind of it seems like she. maybe likes John O'Keefe a little too. much. >> Right. Right. There's no passion. There's no. >> And maybe it's toxic. I think that's a. subjective word for a relationship. Some.

people are like, "No, I would do the. same thing." Some people are like, "That. is crazy. It's toxic." But toxic doesn't. mean you're a killer, >> I guess, is where a lot of people are. confused. warm weather, vacation plants, backyard. barbecues, and endless possibilities, good and bad. You know, summer should be. your escape from stress, your time to. recharge and make memories. But summer. can also be the peak season for. life-changing accidents. A pool party at.

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That's fthepeople.com/rotten. or click the link in the description. below. This is a paid advertisement. [Music]. Brian even asks, "So, he's cool with you. dating other people?" I'm not happy, per. se, just realistic. There's crack. So, she's saying in her relationship with. John, and it's far from perfect. I doubt. it. If he's seeing someone else, I. wouldn't want to know either way. He.

probably feels the same way. And you. probably feel that way about whoever you. hook up with. I think it's normal. And. all of this comes to a climax where she. goes over to his house, they share a. drink, and they have this same. conversation, and Brian says it was. awkward, and she just eventually leaves. And it was just a weird vibe. There's a. few more messages exchanged where it. appears that Karen is pretty fully. checked out until he texts her at the. waterfall. The night of, right before. they all go to 34 Fair View, Brian.

Higgins is at the waterfall bar. Mhm. >> He came with Brian Albert. Karen and. John show up and Karen ignores him per. the CCTV footage, per testimonies, she. doesn't go anywhere near him. John says. hi to Brian Higgins. Karen does not she. does not want to talk to him. She. doesn't want to say hi to him. Whether. it's she doesn't want to make Jon. jealous now or whether she just is so. over him. It's unclear. But he texts her. um well dot dot dot. She doesn't.

respond. The next day around noon, Karen. texts Brian Higgins for the very last. time. January 29th, 2022. Around noon, she texts two words. John died. Brian Higgins never responds. >> Wow. >> Initially, netzens thought that this. motive was for Karen to kill John. O'Keefe, but that doesn't make sense. like what the prosecutors are saying. So, first of all, she texts ATF Brian. and she's talking to him about how she.

saw Jon kissing another girl on their. New Year's Eve trip, which more on that. later, but she says that he cheated on. her. So, by a lot of people's accounts, it seems like this text message is some. sort of toxic revenge plan or an attempt. to get Jon to pay more attention to her. Other people also point out that the. prosecution is saying that Karen killed. Jon in a crime of passion, if you will. They got into a fight in the car in. front of 34 Fair View. She ran him over. It was a drunken fight. However, people. are saying if she wanted to kill him, it.

would have been on that New Year's Eve. trip. >> when she thought that he was hooking up. with another girl. That would have been. the time for the crime of passion, not. in front of another Boston police. officer's house in the middle of the. night out of nowhere. And second, nizens. think that the prosecution just wants to. paint Karen as being overly jealous, thus pushing her to be homicidal, but. she doesn't seem I mean, she seems. jealous. She seems perhaps a little. toxic, but it does seem like she never. really bad mouths John ever. It seems.

more so like the circumstances are rough. and she's upset, but it's never this. like very vile like I hate this guy. He. can't fulfill me. Like there's nothing. negative per se. So, while the. prosecutors are trying to paint this as. motive that Karen has to want to kill. John O'Keefe, the defense are saying. actually all these text messages do is. prove that ATF Brian had motive because. wouldn't he benefit the most if John.

O'Keefe is out of the picture. This is. kind of a side note, but a lot of people. also point out the fact that Karen and. John had previously dated. They ended up. breaking up and then reconnecting over. the pandemic where they actually start. seriously dating for two years. That to. a lot of people feels like Karen is not. the type to be like if I can't have you, no one can because they had already. previously broken up once before. So it. doesn't seem like she has this fixation. on him that's like only I can be with. you or else. So that's another thing.

that people have been pointing out. But. on top of that, based off the text. messages between Karen and ATF Brian, it. seems that Jon knows that maybe Karen. and ATF Brian have a thing, and a lot of. netizens have theorized perhaps Jon was. lured to 34 Fair View, where Brian. Higgins decides to confront him, and he. is backed up by his best friend, Boston. cop, Brian Albert, and that is how John. ends up dead. So whatever happens inside. 34 Fair View, nobody thinks it's.

premeditated. >> Nobody thinks this is like this. masterful plan because these are cops. They know that this is not a good plan. However, maybe a fight breaks out, a. punch is thrown, he ends up dying from a. fatal wound and now these cops are like, "We got to do something." That's the. theory of people who buy into the. conspiracy that the Mcalberts had. something to do with it. A big point of. contention in this case is John. O'Keefe's injuries do not make sense. with the prosecution theory. Karen.

reversing into John O'Keefe, him getting. hit by her passenger side tail light. So, right side tail light. He spins. backwards, hits his head on the. semifrozen ground because it's about to. snow, incapacitating him, leaving him. dead in the snow. That's what the. prosecutors are alleging Karen did. In. the next episode, we actually go into. the accident reconstructionist, which. you would think in a trial, that's like. the boring part. That's the part that.

nobody really cares about. Um, there is. so much unhinged. drama between these accident. reconstructionists. The prosecutors, the. government, the Commonwealth, they hire. a bunch of accident reconstructionists. The defense actually uses the accident. reconstructionists that were hired by. the FBI and they go head-to-head. There. is so much drama of some of these people. lying on their resumes. Some of these. people not even understanding their own. data of the accident reconstruction.

doing experiments that make zero sense. One of the guys is like, "Yeah, I tested. it by using a freezer. I put the phone. in the freezer." They're like, "Do you. know what freezer temperature it was?". No, you don't think that's like the. basic thing of like knowing the. temperature if you're going to stick it. into a freezer and see how it responds. to being stuck in a freezer. He's like, "Well, I didn't think it mattered." I. mean, these people are absolutely. ridiculous. It's like every single. person, I don't know what is happening. in this town, but the injuries. themselves, they don't make sense with a. car accident. Nizens think it lines up.

more with someone who's been in a fight. Dr. Scotty Bellow is the medical. examiner. She is the one that performs. John O'Keefe's autopsy. And now she is. on the stand to tell everyone her. findings. While autopsy photos are. shown, Paul O'keefee, John's brother, is. seated. And like I said, this is a very. small courtroom seated. I mean, I'm I'm. not in the courtroom, but it just. appears like. >> a few feet, right? >> Yeah. And he's just staring down Karen. the whole time. Dr. Squirty Bellow notes.

that John O'Keefe has a small cut to his. right upper eyelid, abrasions on his. nose, bleeding and swelling of both of. his eyelids and eyes. He has these weird. cuts on his arms. They look. >> I saw the photo. It It It's like. throughout his whole arm. >> Yes. And they're all almost linear. >> Yeah. >> So, it's not jagged everywhere. It It. looks like if you were to get and I'm. going to try to use an analogy that is. not applicable to this case. If you were. to get, you know, those leaf rakers.

>> and then you were to just slice. someone's arm cuz there's so many up and. down his arm. >> Yeah. >> It kind of looks like that. He just has. these weird lacerations on his arm and a. few bruises on the back of his right. hand as well as a small scratch and. vague bruises on his left hand. Bleeding. under the eyelids usually is an. indicator of something really bad. They're called raccoon eyes. And Dr. Scory Bellow says bleeding around the. eyes could signify that there's a much.

larger injury inside the skull and it's. not just bleeding of the eyes, which is. exactly the case here. Ultimately, the. cause of death for John is a giant. laceration on the back of his head. That. is consistent with blunt force trauma, aka hitting your head against a blunt. object. It could be a microphone, it. could be a dumbbell, it could be a. stick, it could be the ground. It's just. something that's not sharp. So, it's not. a stab, it's blunt force trauma. It.

could be the edge of a table. And uh Dr. Scory Bellow states that the injury to. his head would not have instantly killed. him, but it would have likely. incapacitated him. It caused a fatal. skull fracture. He had hemorrhaging, bleeding in the brain. And if he's out. in the snow, then the hit to the back of. the head incapacitates him. That's a. cause for hypothermia. So she believes. the laceration to the back of the head. and hypothermia is the combination that. caused his death. In comparing the blunt. force trauma versus the hypothermia, Dr. Scorbelloo says, "I do believe the blunt.

force trauma injuries were sustained. first. These are not injuries that are. immediately lethal. This is not. something that would cause death in. seconds and therefore Mr. O'Keefe may. have been incapacitated by the injuries. or knocked out, if you will, and was not. able to get himself into warmer. environments and therefore hypothermia. set in." So, in my opinion, I believe. the impact, the injury to the head came. first. Mr. O'Keefe was likely. incapacitated or unable to move into a. warmer environment and then the. hypothermia set in.

>> So, she's assuming that he got injured. outside the house. >> Well, no, because it's vague. Oh, >> if that trauma comes first, then yeah, I. mean, he could be injured outside the. house, but a lot of people say it's. vague enough that he could have been. injured anywhere and then taken. somewhere where it's cold and he can't. get up and move. >> Got it. >> Prosecutor Lai asks Dr. Scorty Bellow. Now doctor, with respect uh to the the. hand injury, specifically the fracture, um what if any opinion can you uh can.

you give or can you say in regard to the. type of force or amount of force uh. necessary to cause uh the the fracture. to the skull that you observe with. regard to Mr. Oi? >> Can I say something about Mr. Lai? >> This man asks the most convoluted. questions I've ever heard spoken in. court. It's just kind of ridiculous. I. don't understand any of these questions. He makes every single question so. complicated for no reason. She responds, I can't really give you a number. I'm.

not a physicist. I can tell you that the. skull is a pretty thick bone. It takes a. considerable amount of force to fracture. the skull. So that that was a pretty. considerable impact. Prosecutor Lai. wants the jurors to know considerable. impact. You know, like a car reversing. at 24 miles hour, but that's where. everything stops making sense. Wait, so. he said that car reversing at 24. >> implying he keeps implying it. >> Why 24 miles hour? >> That will come in the next episode, but. it's the data pulled from Karen's Lexus.

>> Okay, >> they claim right now. John's lower. extremity, so his neck down pretty much. does not have a lot of injuries from his. neck down. There's barely anything. Usually, if you're hit by a car, the. lower extremities are highly susceptible. to injury. You'll notice a lot of pelvic. bone injuries when pedestrians are hit. with bigger cars like SUVs. You'll. notice knee injuries, femur, tibia, the. fibula. I mean, John has none of those. He does have fractures near the ribs. His ribs are fractured, but those are.

very common locations for CPR associated. fractures. So, she's saying those rib. fractures, she believes it's. resuscitation efforts. She does not. believe it was anything that caused his. death or was at the time of impact. >> of anything. the bruises on his knuckles. would not be dissimilar to the ones. found on Colin. They look like fighting. bruises, like defensive wounds. And the. Emmy testifies it could be it could also. be medical intervention. So, one bruise. on his right hand, there's this little.

prick at the center of the bruising. So, it could have been them trying to. attempt to get an IV in there. That can. cause bruising when they're being a. little bit more forceful because your. life is at stake. But some people are. saying you could have gotten the bruise. from a fight. They could have done it. and bruised it more. It's not just. exclusive to one or the other. It could. have been both. So, everything, even the. medical report, is just up to debate. She does say that she did not see any. major signs of a significant altercation. taking place. The bruising on the hands.

were faint and one of them had a. pinpoint mark that could suggest it was. the IV. But also, a lot of people that. are in very intense fights, they'll. break their knuckles. She didn't see any. broken bones in the hands of John. O'Keefe or any broken nails, which are. very typical. However, a lot of netizens. argue if he sustained an injury that. would have incapacitated him pretty. quick on, that doesn't mean that he was. in this prolonged 10-minute fight. >> Mhm. >> The prosecution asks her, >> "Injuries that you observed.

to the back of Mr. O'Keefe's head, um, skull fracture, would that be consistent. with a fall to the ground?". >> It it could be. Would that be consistent. with uh being projected by an object, saying a pedestrian collision, and then. striking your head on the ground? >> It's possible. >> Also, what kind of question is that? Just ask, would that be consistent with. a pedestrian hitting their head on the. ground after being hit by a car? But. instead, he says, would that be. consistent with being projected by an. object, say a pedestrian collision, and. then striking your head on the ground?

And the injuries that you observed, would that be consistent with injuries. that you observed in other cases of a. pedestrian collision? They're not the. classic pedestrian injuries that we've. observed. No. Defense attorney Elizabeth. Little does the cross and she asks if. these injuries could also have been. caused by, let's say, a dumbbell. You. know, the Alberts, they love working. out. They've got a home gym in their. basement. Could it have been a dumbbell? Could be. She's also asking one by one. You know, it's very interesting. So. there were no injuries to his shoulders?

No. Chest area aside from the. resuscitation attempts? No. No injuries. to the torso, to his back, hips, pelvis, thighs, knees, feet, ankles, none. None. So from the neck down, he did not have a. single broken bone. Again, aside from. those CPR related injuries, correct? That's correct. Not a single fracture. Correct. Would you agree that John. O'Keefe's injuries or lack thereof are. inconsistent with having been struck by. a vehicle at 24 mph? I would say it's.

likely and unlikely at the same time. depending on the position of the body. and the vehicle in question. >> Would you agree that his injuries to his. face are consistent with having been. punched? >> That is a possibility. >> Your internal examination notes also. site a tongue laceration on the right. front of the victim's tongue. Do you. recall that? >> Yes. And you'd agree that a tongue. laceration can be also caused by blunt. force trauma. >> Correct. >> And that could also include something. like a punch to the victim's face or. jaw.

>> That's a possibility. >> The laceration to the back of John's. head had scratches to which defense. attorney Little asks, would you agree. that someone could certainly get. scratched on the back of their head if. for instance they were dragged on the. ground? It is possible. >> So she's saying anything's possible. Basically, >> Dr. Scory Bellow testifies that the. injury to the back of his head, the. fatal wound, could have been a result of. falling back onto concrete, onto grass. It could have been a result of being. struck with a large object such as a. baseball bat or a barbell or hitting her.

head against the table. I mean, the. world is the oyster. Like, anything is. possible at this point. But Elizabeth. Little continues. And you'd agree that. bruising to the back of hands is also. consistent with defensive wounds. Yes, that is correct. In your expert medical. opinion, is it possible for someone to. get punched in the face hard enough to. lose consciousness and fall backwards? It is possible. There are five. classifications for manner of death on. an autopsy. >> Mhm. >> One, natural. Two, accidental. So, the. fatal outcome is not intentional. Drug.

overdoses, elderly falls, motor vehicle. accidents. Three, homicide. Four, self-exit. And five, undetermined. Now. this is very different from the cause of. death which would include more injury or. impact focused facts. For example, John. O'Keefe's official cause of death on his. certificate list is blunt impact. injuries of head and hypothermia. But. the manner of death is listed could not. be determined. It's not homicide even. though we are in the middle of a.

homicide trial. She says, "I am. responsible for what goes on the death. certificate, and unless I have enough. information, clear and convincing. evidence, I cannot determine a manner.". The Emmy states that they don't. necessarily think that the injuries. indicate or are consistent with John. getting hit by a car, particularly the. bluntforce trauma to the back of the. head could be consistent with with. pretty much anything. The defense argues. that this is very interesting because. Dr. Squirty Bellow actually receives a.

lot of information from the state. troopers. The state troopers give her a. lot of background information that can. help her narrow down her medical. findings. They don't influence her. She. says they never tried to and she would. never accept it if they did. Which makes. sense because I think if they did. influence her, she would have put it. down as homicide or something. But she. says, "No, they gave me this. information." I mean, they told her that. Karen said, "I hit him. I hit him." and. they were talking about hitting him with. the car and she still ruled it could not. be determined. So the defense is asking.

you had all that information you still. were unable to conclude the manner of. death from Mr. O'Keefe. Correct. Correct. Netzens argue it just doesn't. make sense with the sentiment being if. you really wanted I mean sure you could. try to argue that he was hit by the car. somehow and there are these odd once in. a blue moon instances where maybe the. injuries are just not how they seem. Another thing a lot of nizens have been. pointing out is that you see a lot of. drunk driving statistics where the drunk. driver themselves always come out alive.

whereas the sober people who are. following the laws they end up passing. and I think per instance it's different. but there have been anecdotal evidence. and maybe there's scientific evidence. out there if you guys can inform me on. that but when you are drunk your limbs. are a lot more. >> they're not as stiff. >> and so your body takes the impact. typically a tiny bit better. Interesting. >> And so people are saying if he were to. be hit and he was that drunk, it doesn't. make sense. The typically drunk people. are a little more jelloy. He might have.

fallen, but this feels almost like he. became stiff as a board and like twisted. and just banged his head down instead of. being a little more jelloy, which is. like you would fall onto your bottom. first or something of that sort. But. again, that I don't know how scientific. that is. It seems a lot more anecdotal, but people are like maybe we can believe. that. However, what are the injuries to. his arms? It doesn't make sense. Now, the prosecutors, they're going to argue, and we're going to get more into this in. the next part, that when Karen hit him. with the back of her car, her tail light.

shatters and then she almost drags him. by the arm with her cracked tail light. And then he spins around, does like a. pioua, they literally use that word, like a ballet spin, and then hits his. head on the frozen ground and passes. away. That's what they're trying to say. Dr. Squirty Bellow says about those. arms. We have this collection of linear. abrasions that measured up to 7 cm and. extended from the upper arm down to the. middle of the forearm. I mean, the arm.

has no broken bones, no fractures, just. these lacerations. She states, "I do not. know how they came to be." Defense. attorney Little asks her, "Could they. have been from a German Shepherd's. Clause. >> or a German Shepherd's Claus?". >> Claus, >> possibly. Yes, >> Chloe. >> So, this is why Chloe is going to be. very important later. Some people are. very split. I think at this point with. the injuries, a lot of people believe. that John O'Keefe was killed inside the. house. That's just the conspiracy out.

there. A lot of people just don't. feasibly understand how these injuries. came from the impact of a car. It just. doesn't make sense to them. And I think. it's not just this. It's the way. everybody testifies. All these like. negative uh weird associations with the. no nudes yet. These random butt dials. we're going to get into. Everybody's. kind of suspicious and then the injuries. are not consistent. It's weird. Now, some people are split on who killed John. O'Keefe inside the house. And again, these are conspiracies. Some believe.

that it was Brian Higgins. Others say it. was Colin. But regardless, many netizens. believe he went inside the house and he. was killed inside the basement. And. we're going to get into all of the. pictures of the basement because the. Alberts decide that they're suddenly. going to renovate the basement and then. put their house that they have lived in. for generations. This house was owned by. Brian Albert's parents prior to this. >> Uh-huh. >> And they're going to put it on the. market and sell it. >> No freaking way. when.

>> like months after. >> That is so shady. >> Before the first trial. And the new. owners, the new owners are going to let. Karen Reed's defense team. >> into the house. >> Fascinating. That is crazy. >> Yeah. A lot of people think that John. O'Keefe was killed in the basement. He. was dragged out through the basement. doors that lead open to the backyard and. then there's a side fence that leads. straight to the front lawn flag pole. where his body was found. They believe.

that he was semi-dragged or perhaps he. was put inside a Ford Edge and then put. on the side of the road. We're going to. get to that in the next one. But they're. saying that this all adds up because. around 12:18 a.m. John's phone shows. that he unlocked his Face ID and he is. on the Messages app for about 11. seconds. Then he calls Jen McCabe. So we. can assume that at 12:18 a.m. Karen and. John are driving to 34 Fairview. That. call lasts 36 seconds. It's likely that. he's asking for clarifying directions to.

34 Fair View. That call ends and at. 12:20, John unlocks his phone again and. starts using Ways, the map app. >> Then 2 minutes after that, at around. 12:22, John gets a message from Brian. Higgins that just reads, "You come in. here?" question mark question mark. question mark. Then around 12:29, Jen. calls John and that call lasts around 51. seconds. 12:31, Jen texts John, "Pull. behind me." Now John's phone is locked. for the very last time at 12:33 a.m. And.

then Karen starts calling John O'Keefe. at 12:33 a.m. 12:34, 12:34, 12:35, 12:35, 12:36, 12:37. All those calls go. unanswered. That is when at 12:38 Karen. starts leaving her series of rather. angry voicemails. Then at 12:40, Jen texts John, "Hello, this is the first message that goes. unread." The calls from Karen go. unanswered. So from 12:33, John stops. responding to any phone calls, any.

messages. >> So his phone stopped at 12:33. >> Yes. Stop interaction. >> Now at 12:42, another message pops up. Where are you? Then at 102, another. message from Karen that reads, "Your. kids are [ __ ] alone." And then. another one at 104 from Karen to John. I'm back in Mansfield, which is where. her house is, stating that she left. John's niece alone at the house, which. is not true. She's actually at John's. house on the couch waiting for him to. get home. Here's where it gets. interesting. From John's Apple Health.

data, it shows that at 12:30 a.m., the. phone takes 36 steps, which would be. around 84 ft. Measurements from the flag. pole to the front door are 74 ft. Now, flag pole to the street probably adds a. few more feet. It seems like the right. amount to get into the house. And then. his Apple health data shows him going up. and down stairs. >> to the basement. >> How many feet? >> Three stairs. Three flights of stairs. >> Okay. >> Now, according to the prosecution.

expert, they state that John's phone. after leaving Karen's car never leaves. the area of the flag pole. They say that. it drops down onto the ground. And we're. going to get into this whole like phone. battery temperature in the next one in. the next episode. But there are theories. online that Jon made it into the house. and was killed in the basement. That. perhaps Chloe, the German Shepherd. that's not great with strangers, attacks. John's arm because a fight has broken. out, probably maybe conspiracy with her.

loved ones, people that she loves and a. stranger. and she jumps into the fight. Allegedly, there is a bigger physical. altercation. She causes those. lacerations and that is the theory. But. when they run the DNA on John's shirt, there is no dog DNA. >> Only pig DNA. >> What? >> Where the hell are they getting pig DNA? Before I give you a full rundown of the. full statements of everyone in the. house, I have to do a quick rundown of.

the theories that are circulating on the. internet. So you can decide whether if. any of these theories make any sense at. all and if so, which one makes the most. sense. So first theory is an insane. theory. I'm going to tell you that. straight up. It's a house full of. swingers. The theories come from speculations and. rumors from locals, alleged locals, that. Jen McCabe and Brian Albert, so Jen. McCabe is sisters with Nicole, Nicole is. married to Brian, that Jen McCabe and.

Brian Albert were having an affair and. that Brian Albert and Nicole Albert were. swingers. That the Mc Alberts, they're. swingers in this town. That's what. they're saying. The most interesting. part of this theory that nizens grasp on. to that makes the most sense is Karen. asked John when they get to 34 Fair. View, "Can you go inside and make sure. we're welcome?" Which is kind of a weird. thing to ask. Some netizens will. interpret this differently as ooh Karen. got bad vibes from these people from the. get-go. Like she doesn't know if they.

like John or not. That's some. interpretation. Others say, "You don't. think that's strange? Why would she ask. him to go inside to make sure that. they're welcome?" Well, the theory is. that Karen and John kind of knew that. the Alberts were a swinging house. She. didn't want to be a swinger. So, she. asks Jon to go in there and make sure. that they're not swinging because she. doesn't want to go in and like do that. That's not what she wants to do. He goes. inside and he doesn't come back out and. he doesn't pick up her calls. And so, she starts leaving these very angry. voicemails because she believes he's in.

there doing some swinger stuff, doing. stuff that he shouldn't be doing. Because why else I mean these conspiracy. theorists are wondering why else would. you call him at 1:00 a.m. calling him a. pervert. >> Yes. 1:00 in the morning I'm with your. niece and nephew. You pervert. You're a. pervert. >> Because it's a very specific thing. Some. people were trying to think, oh maybe. she thought he walked two doors down to. Bella's mom's house because he was. dating Bella's mom at one point. But. that's not a pervert. That's a cheater.

That's someone that's messed up. That's. not a pervert. A pervert is so specific. >> So, this theory is kind of built upon. the text pervert. >> Angry voicemails of pervert. The. weirdness of like why would she send him. in there to go see if they're welcome? And also, a lot of locals have come out. anonymously online. So, take it with a. grain of salt. We can't confirm any of. this that these people are swingers. >> Okay. But isn't like the are the kids at. home too? Brian Aubber Jr.

>> Yes. But she didn't. Karen didn't know. that. >> Okay. >> So Karen's like, "Go in and make sure. they're not swinging." Right. The theory. though is how did the death occur then? Because he would walk in, they're not. swinging. What then? The theory is that. John walks in and Brian Higgins is. demanding he go get Karen. Or maybe he's. inciting John. He's drunk. He's like, "Hey, guess what? Karen texted me." And. Brian Albert's egging it on. They're. having this little moment of like, "Haha, John O'Keefe." A fight breaks.

out, one punch, and Jon ends up dead. They start panicking. Karen thinks he's. in there doing things. She drives off. She's pissed off. She's leaving. voicemails. And there are plans now put. into place of what they should do, which. why don't they just report it then, right? I mean, it's clearly not a. premeditated intentional killing. They. know that someone's going to get jail. time. These are all cops. I don't think. they're going to have a good time in. jail. And two, nizens believe that this. group is very imageoriented. They don't.

want the whole town to know that this is. a swingers gone wrong party, which is a. crazy way to phrase things, but that is. theory number one. Swingers. Theory two, the Brians, Brian Albert and his bestie. Brian Higgins are ready for a fight. They had just driven down from New York. together. And ATF Brian is telling Brian. Albert about his text message flirting. with Karen. Brian Albert is riing him. up. He's like, "You need to confront. John about what his woman is doing.". Like that's the way that this man talks,

okay? Just I watched Boston's Finest, okay? Um and this guy likes to call. everybody females. That's the vibe it. gives. And he's saying, "You got to. manto man. Say something to him." These. are all fictional in our minds. conversations. We don't know if any of. this is true. And he's like, "End this. once and for all." Which is why Brian is. texting John asking if he's coming. Jon. walks in. A confrontation ensues between. Brian Higgins and John O'Keefe where. again Jon ends up with a fatal head.

injury and now everyone's freaking out. Theory number three, Colin Albert bloody. knuckles. Colin, 17-year-old high schooler, very. arrogant little weasel. I mean, propensity for getting into fist fights. He gets into an altercation probably. over nothing with John O'Keefe. Punches. him causing the fatal head injury. Everyone now plays cleanup. >> Why would that happen? Like you say, they previously have bad relationship, right? >> Yes. So, that is one theory. We're going.

to get more into that in the next one. because they're all they've got some. weird relationships with John O'Keefe as. well. His parents do cuz they were all. neighbors for a very long time. They. live two houses down. Now, Colin Albert, just a weird kid. He was pissing John. off, according to Karen, leaving beer. bottles in his front lawn. He was the. one person that John O'Keefe had. problems with. And Colin Albert just. seems to be very entitled. He gives me. Nepo baby vibes. Although I don't know. how wealthy the Mc Alberts are,

>> but Chris run the town. >> Exactly. >> He That's the energy that he has. I also. feel like he's the type to bully smaller. ranking cops because he's got the big. boy cops on his side. And I think that. he seems to he strikes me as the type to. think that that would be cool. >> But what do I know? I don't know this. guy. Some people think that he started a. fight over the beer cans. Other people. think maybe it's a mixture. Perhaps Jon. walks in and Khloe has a moment where.

she freaks out. She sees Jon, a. stranger, and just attacks out of. nowhere. And Jon is doing everything he. can to get Chloe off of him because. would you not do the same thing as well? And Colin sees this and he's mad. Why? I. don't know if he particularly is a dog. lover or an animal lover, but I think. that he is maybe someone that looks for. an opportunity to fight based off of his. multiple instances of injured knuckles. >> And he decides that he's going to punch. Jon, use this as an excuse to punch him.

to get him to stop, but that punch ends. up being fatal. So that is theory three. Colin unpredictable bloody knuckles. There is another theory involving Colin, but it's involving Colin and almost this. entire wall of people. This theory is going to make more sense. in the next episode, but it is believed. that Colin was engaged in some nefarious. after school activities. That's the. rumor. These are all speculations. These.

are conspiracies that Colin is selling. drugs. There are depths to this theory. Some people think that it's just Colin. selling drugs to high school kids. Others think it's a whole enterprise. So. Chris and Julie Albert, they own a pizza. shop. Okay. >> And everyone says the food is really. bad. And they say, "I don't know how. they stay in business." And people say, "Maybe cuz they're not selling food.". And it would be very easy theoretically. for Kevin Albert, Brian Albert to get. access to confiscated drugs and maybe it.

is being resold. Why is this a theory? Because right before John O'Keefe's. passing, he reports to his superiors. that he knew of some drug activity in. his neighborhood in Canton. It's. actually going to get a lot darker. because do you know who invited John. O'Keefe to the Waterfall Bar that night? Chris Albert. Prior to this, they were. neighbors for many years. >> Oh, they hate each other, right? >> Chris Albert didn't even have John.

O'Keefe's number for a very long time. Suddenly, he invites him to the. waterfall. >> That is weird. >> That is a very lengthy theory that we're. going to go into the next part, but the. theory is they decide they're going to. bring him to 34 Fair View. That's why. Brian Higgins is like, "Hey, John, are. you coming?" And basically, they're just. going to try to get into a fight to shut. him up. A lot of people have reported. online, again, rumors that Brian Albert. is a bully cop. He's the type of cop. that will beat you up. He's not the type. of cop that's like, "I will only arrest.

you and be kind to you because you are. still a human with rights and you are. innocent until proven guilty." They say. just based off vibes and what people say. that they know of him. He's the one to. turn off his body cam allegedly. This is. a conspiracy. This is the vibe. This is. the picture that I'm drawing you the. vision, but it's not actual deeds that. he is accused of doing or has have been. proven to have done. But people say he's. the type of cop to turn off his body cam. and beat you up and then turn it back. on. So they decide John's going to come. over and we're just going to tussle him.

up so he knows not to mess with it not. to talk about it, not to investigate. further because it's none of your. business. And that is theory number. four. So with those four main theories. in mind, let's see what everyone in the. house has to say about that night. Brian. Higgins says on the 28th, so this is the. day of the Blizzard party before. midnight, the day before John is found. deceased. ATF Brian and Brian Albert go. to New York City to attend the funeral.

of an officer who was killed in the line. of duty. Now, the original plan was for. everybody to stay in New York for a. while to pay their respects, but because. the blizzard is expected to hit, ATF. Brian is like, "I am not going to get. stuck in New York City. I'm going to. drive down to Canton today, Friday. night." Brian Albert and Kevin Albert, Canton police officer, detective, brother of Brian Albert, they're both in. New York and they ask ATF Brian, "We. flew here. Can we catch a ride with you? Because we also don't want to be stuck. in New York. So they drive back, they. grab dinner together. This drive is like.

4 hours, by the way. And that is why a. lot of people are like, you're telling. me ATF Brian, you didn't tell Brian. Albert about your text messages with. Karen. And they don't give me I mean, you know, based off of everything we've. seen about these two men, they seem like. the type to share all these types of. things with each other. >> Seems like they've been talking a lot of. stuff. >> Yeah. They all drive back down, grab. dinner together, where ATF Brian has a. few drinks with his favorite Jamison and. Ginger, and eventually they end up at.

the Waterfall Bar. Now, to be very. precise, ATF Brian initially just went. to the hillside for dinner with Brian. Albert. Brian Albert is like, I'm going. to go meet my wife, Nicole, at the. Waterfall Bar. I think our daughter. Caitlyn is also there, so bye. ATF Brian. is like, okay, bye. And then last minute. he decides, you know what? I'm gonna go. to the waterfall bar for no apparent. specific reason. He walks in and then. Karen and John O'Keefe walk in. And. obviously it's going to be presumably.

awkward. Jon doesn't know that they've. been texting. He has a little inkling. that something is weird. But Karen and. ATF Brian likely, well, Karen likely. doesn't want anything to go further. ATF. Brian says when the couple walk into the. waterfall, he has a brief conversation. with Jon and he doesn't recall what they. spoke about and he doesn't have any sort. of conversation with Karen, but he does. discreetly text her um well, which he says was a flirtatious text. Karen again does not respond and.

everybody starts packing it up, starts. leaving the bar to go to 34 Fair View. Suddenly, ATF Brian drops texting Karen. He's like, "I'm no longer texting Karen. I'm going to text John O'Keefe instead.". And he says, "Where are you? Are you. coming here?" question mark. It just. feels like for whatever reason he wants. John O'Keefe there. Some people say he. wants John O'Keefe there because Karen. by default will come. Some people say he. wants John O'keefee there because this. is like the last straw for him. Karen. finally ghosted him again to his face. and now he's going to confront John.

about it. >> and he's going to be like, "You know. what's been happening?". >> I see. Okay. >> It's been interpreted both ways. ATF. Brian gets no response from John O'Keefe. from that message and he testifies that. John and Karen were absolutely not. inside the house at any point. He says, "After I left the waterfall, I never saw. the defendant or John O'Keefe ever. again." During cross-examination, the. defense attorney, Alan Jackson, he. starts asking ATF Brian about that kiss,

and he's like, "It wasn't some. passionate long kiss, right?" It's safe. to say that that was not some hot, passionate, long kiss, but you think it. was more than just a friendly pec. Correct. >> I wouldn't describe it as a peck. I. describe it as more than friends. It was. a kiss. >> Well, you did describe it as a peck, didn't you? When when you texted Karen. and she said it was just a peck and you. texted back, "I agree. It was weak." He. said it was a figure of speech or the. truth, right? Figure of speech. The.

defense is trying to argue Karen really. is just not that into ATF Brian. I mean, it's pretty clear from the messages that. she's emotionally upset over the rough. parts of her relationship with Jon. She's likely using ATF Brian to make Jon. jealous. If anything, that gives ATF. Brian a bigger motive to want Jon gone. than it does Karen. Attorney Jackson. asks him, "You were very interested in. her romantically at that point.". Correct. >> I was attracted to her. I don't know. that I would say very interested in her. >> You're showing romantic interest in her. >> I wouldn't say it was romantic. I was. trying to vet it out. My question is,

you seem to have a problem admitting. that you had a romantic interest in my. client. Is there a reason for that? I. was attracted to her, right? Physically. attracted. I thought she was an. attractive woman. Romantically. attracted. I'm not going to go there. No, I don't agree with that. Of course, you're not going to go there because. that would put you in a very awkward. position, wouldn't it? Not at all. But. Alan Jackson is like, you were telling. her that you want the real deal. The. real deal that you would be able to get. to date her and get involved. romantically, correct? No. What did you. mean by I want the real deal?

>> Like a relationship. It's a a real. relationship. >> Like a romantic relationship. Mr. Higgins. >> It's possible. >> They also point out that at no point, even when talking about Jon potentially. cheating on her, did Karen show any sort. of anger, resentment, or hatred towards. John O'Keefe, which ATF Brian agrees, but maybe ATF Brian starts feeling some. type of way because at the waterfall, he. just keeps getting ignored. And so she. basically ignored you the whole evening. No, that's not how I interpreted it. >> So, how did he interpreted it?

>> So, she paid you attention and came over. and said hello, shook your hand, give. you a hug. Well, just because somebody. doesn't come over, doesn't mean they. ignored you. >> Look like you didn't even exist. >> I think that's dramatic. No, I I I don't. look at it that way. >> Did she ignore you or not? No, she did. not ignore me. She was working the room, talking to people, saying hello, catching up. And the one person she. didn't come over to talk to and say. hello to and catch up with is you. I. don't know that I was the only person, but I was one of the people that she.

didn't say hello to. Yes. Treated you. like a stranger. I didn't feel that way. No. Did that upset you that she ignored. you or didn't pay attention to you? I. did not feel ignored and it didn't upset. me at all. But it bothered you enough to. send her a text message, didn't it? No, it was a flirty text. It was just um. that was it. Okay. So, um, with six M's. And she ignored the text. Correct. Well, I don't know what her mindset was. If. she was purposely ignoring the text or. she didn't see it. I don't know. I. didn't read into it. >> Just um, well, like a well in the in the.

ground. >> I think you know what I mean. >> Yeah, I think you do too, sir. You meant. um, well, when are you going to pay. attention to me? >> No, that's not correct. >> Um, well, why are you ignoring me? >> It's not correct. >> Um, well, am I chopped liver? >> Objection. >> All right, that that's sustain, Mr. I. feel like a teenage boy could figure. this one out. >> And I feel like he's Yeah, the rejection. is very clear. >> Yeah. Like what are you saying? Like we. all know you're ignored and you're kind. of but about it.

>> This one a few of these people on this. wall. >> I feel like their egos and their true. colors like this man Alan Jackson does. know how to poke them. >> Very specifically. >> I see. >> Like he he gets people angry on the. stand. That is how a lot of reporters. have talked about him even before this. case. They say he's very adversarial. At. 2:20 a.m. after you left the waterfall, you made your way over to 34 Fair View. You were more interested in getting Jon. to come to 34 Fair View than Karen. No,

that's not how I would describe it. The. defense insinuates that ATF Brian had. told Brian Albert about everything. that's been happening with Karen and. he's going to confront Jon that night. And ATF Brian is like, to be honest with. you, I mean, on a personal level, I kind. of keep things to myself. I was a little. embarrassed. I wasn't really proud of. them. Kind of maybe didn't show me in a. good light with respects that I was. John's friend. So, he's saying, "I never. told Brian Albert a single thing." He. says that the text messages with Karen, I mean, I'm not proud of these text. messages. It is what it is. I take. responsibility for them. But John was a.

friend at the same time, and I clearly. wasn't. You know, if they were at the. end of their relationship, they were at. the end of their relationship. ATF Brian. says he stops by inside the house, never. sees John. But there's this very strange. moment in court. Attorney Jackson brings. up the fact that at a previous. proceeding insinuating to be a federal. proceeding, these people, these people are much more honest with. federal interviews. The FBI comes. knocking on their door, suddenly a. little more honest. Suddenly they can.

remember a little bit more. But anything. to do with the Commonwealth grand jury. hearing, the first trial, the second. trial, interviews, they just talk out of. their butts in ways that I'm like. logically it doesn't even make sense. >> But with the feds, I think they know. >> So the feds in you have only Allan. Jackson has that information and he will. bring it up during this trial. >> The Commonwealth has that information, but it's they don't want to bring it up. >> Right. Right. >> So Alan Jackson is impeaching them with. this information. So, he's bringing it.

up during cross-examination, and he. says, "Didn't you at a previous. proceeding you stated that you saw a. tall, dark-haired male enter the Albert. house that night?". >> I believe that was in reference to ask. to somebody's brother in a pickup. I. don't know if that was during. >> All I'm asking you, Mr. Higgins, is did. you say that? Did you say the tall, dark-haired male entered the house while. we were there? >> I said they might have. Did you say they might have?

>> Yes. >> Attorney Jackson reads him the previous. statement which Higgins is asked. The. mail showed up where you answered showed. up at the house. I think he was there. very briefly. I was half paying. attention to it. You were then asked did. that male come inside the house. You. answered I believe he did. Do you. remember that? Yes. So, did the male. come into the house that night? No. I. said I believe he did. I wasn't sure. You said that you only remember seeing. that person come in briefly and it. looked like he was having a conversation. with two girls briefly. Correct? Yes.

You were asked how long was the person. in there roughly and you said it was. quick, less than a couple of minutes. And then you were asked what he looked. like and you said I feel like they were. a little bit taller and had dark hair. Side note, there are two ways this has. been interpreted. This tall, dark-haired. male could fit John O'Keefe's. description, but other than that, there's no name. There's nothing. But. Higgins knows what John O'Keefe looks. like. Why would he say it like this? Because Higgins is a federal agent. Maybe he knows what happens when you lie. to the feds about something really bad. Perhaps he's using this as a seed to.

plant an out for him to say, "Well, I. didn't really look fully. I was drunk. I. wasn't paying attention. I did tell you. Remember I told you that I might have. seen someone come into the house. I. clearly didn't think it was John. >> cuz I I was so drunk. I was out of it. But I I told you I remembered someone. coming in. So, I'm not lying to you.". Others think no, he's covering his ass. because Colin, every single person. testifies that Colin leaves before. Karen's car even shows up anywhere. Colin leaves before half the senior.

adults get here. He leaves right when. like Brian Albert walks in through the. door and he's the first person to get. there. So there's no way Colin and John. O'Keefe, Karen Reed overlap. >> Mhm. But maybe Brian Higgins is like, I. know that's not true and I can't lie to. the feds. So this is his way of saying, well, Colin Colin was there. Colin was. there later than everyone is saying he. was there because technically Colin and. Brian Higgins should not have crossed. paths. He should have left the house.

before Brian Higgins even got there. >> Is that is that the only people who fits. a description? Like there's no other. tall black hair really. I mean, those. are the only two that fit the. description in a way that would make. sense. So, these are what the netizens. are theorizing. >> Oh, okay. Okay. >> Now, this could be him covering for. himself to say, "Well, I didn't see John. O'Keeffe there, but I I guess I saw him. I was just drunk." Or to not perjure. himself on the stand and say that, "Oh, I didn't see Colin. He left before I got.

there.". >> So, exactly how many people is in the. house? >> When everybody is at the waterfall. >> When everyone's at the waterfall. Okay. >> Okay. You've got Birthday Brian. Brian. Albert Jr. I have these little house. postit. Okay. >> Buzz cuz I I was like these are going to. come in handy. >> Brian Albert Jr. >> Uh-huh. His friend. >> Julie. >> His other friend Sarah Levenson. >> Okay. >> These three are in the house. There were. That's it. >> There were a few other girls, >> but they left. And they are now saying.

Colin was also there. >> the whole time. >> with Brian Aubbert Jr. >> Yes. >> He he only came for like 40 minutes they. say but he was there with. >> So Colin Aubbert is friends with Brian. Albert they're Albert. >> Yeah they're cousins. Yeah. So they're. cousins. >> Interesting. >> And then the first people to get back. >> Uhhuh. >> in one car is Brian Albert. >> Uhhuh. Nico Albert. >> Nicole Albert. >> at like what 12 something? Yes. And.

Caitlyn Albert, their daughter. >> Right. Okay. >> So, these three come back in one car. from the waterfall bar. And then Colin. leaves. >> Why? Why did he leave so early? >> He says he has a curfew. >> We're going to get into that. He There's. text messages that are so unhinged. So. then Colin leaves. >> at what time? 12. >> He says 12:10 a.m. Exactly. Does he. recall anything else from that night? >> Crazy. But they every single person. recalls he left at 12:10.

>> Wow. >> So then then Brian Higgins walks in. >> Okay. >> Colin has left. Brian Higgins walks in. Jennifer McCabe walks in with her. husband Matthew McCabe. Yes. >> And obviously in Now these are all the. people that are inside the house. >> That's not a lot of people. >> No. >> How do you not remember? Okay. So. there's let me see 1 2 3 4 five. Five. adults, like five older, and then 1 2 3. 4 four younger crowd. Like there's. barely anyone in the house.

>> Yeah. I mean, okay. So, I'm going to get. there when I get there because there are. outside people now. >> So, these are all the people when asked. about if he said that to the feds about. the darkhaired, tall guy. He doesn't. remember. Brian Higgins doesn't remember. a lot of things during his testimony. All he remembers about being in that. house was he just stayed for a little. bit because well, he saw Birthday Brian. flanked by two females. That's how he. says it. He just keeps using this type. of verbiage over and over again. And at. one point, ATF Brian and Brian Albert.

leave the kitchen area and they go. upstairs to look at Brian Albert's other. son's photos. So Brian Albert is like, "Hey, my other son, who's not on this. wall, is in the Marines. You want to see. pictures of him in the Marines?" So, they go upstairs. >> Uh-huh. >> Problem. ATF Brian previously testified. that he had never been upstairs in the. Albert household. >> Would you go anywhere else within the. home beyond what you've described as far. as the kitchen and the living room?

>> No. >> Did you go upstairs at any time? >> No. >> But they went upstairs to go look at the. photos. There's three floors in the. Albert residence. ATF Brian testified. previously that he's never been to the. very top floor, which means you just. have the main floor and the basement. So, if you go upstairs to look at. photos, >> where are the photos? >> Okay, so are we saying that they were. downstairs in the basement? >> Where a lot of people theorize John. O'Keefe was killed? So, they're. downstairs in the basement and they went. upstairs to go look at photos. It's just.

another thing that is very, very. strange, right? >> It doesn't make any sense. ATF Brian. also states that he leaves the Albert. residence sometime around 12:20 1:00. a.m. He says that he knew he was going. to leave pretty early, even before. coming, because he's not a big beer. drinker, and all they have are White. Claws and beers. So, he's like, "I need. my Jameson and Ginger." He's like. obsessed with that combination. He. claims he's one of the very first people. to leave. And he just wants to go home. Except he doesn't go home. He goes.

straight to the Canton Police. Department. >> Mhm. ATF Brian works out of the Canton. Police Department. He has an office. there because Chief, the chief of the. Canton Police, Burkowitz is his bestie. During a celebration party for Chief. Burkowitz, ATF Brian got up with a glass. of champagne to give a toast and. allegedly said, "If you want to hide a. body, Kenny Burkowitz is your man.". Brian Higgins says. >> that relationship was through Chief. Burkowitz, um, born through a tragedy.

When my sister passed away, uh, we. became friends and, uh, he offered up. the space cuz I had I had also moved. there. So, it was it was it was close. It was a jumping off point. >> Brian Hagen's sister passed away. >> Yeah. And then he was like, "Hey, since. you're moving to Canton, do you just. want an office inside of my police. station?" You want to know something. else that's crazy? >> I keep wanting to save some crazy. things, but these two seem close, right?

Brian Higgins and Brian Albert seem. close, right? >> Besties. Yeah. >> But Brian Higgins, ATF Brian and Chief. Burkowitz are actually much closer. And. ATF Brian stated that Chief Burkowitz. says even he is scared of Brian Albert. Brian Albert's a scary guy. >> How did we find out about that? >> He said that to somebody else. Why does. he go to the Canton Police Department. right after 34 Fair View? He's like, "Yeah, it doesn't make sense." He claims. it's because he has a ton of cars parked. in the parking lot. He's got work cars.

He's got a police cruiser. He's got an. undercover cop car. He's got his own. personal cars in the parking lot. And if. the snow plowers are coming through, they've got to move all their cars to. the center of the parking garage because. it just makes things easier. It's a. courtesy thing. Nevertheless, he goes. in, he passes the dispatch room where. Sergeant Good is working dispatch, and. he will be the one that picks up Carrie. Roberts initial 911 call where she's. like, "Hey, have you seen my friend at a. hospital or anything?" He says no. Then. he picks up another 911 call from Jen.

who says, "There's a guy in the snow. >> There's a man in the snow.". >> And then he later showed up too at the. scene. >> It's It was all him. >> Yes. These three will show up at the. scene. Mhm. >> These three are so suspicious because. these three didn't even see where John's. body was laying in the snow, but they're. out here giving all their information to. the accident reconstructionist when it's. like, how can you give information if. you didn't even know where he was in the. snow, >> right? >> These three are weird. ATF Brian says he.

just waves at Sergeant Good. That's it. He says hi to him, goes to his office. upstairs, grabs his car keys, comes back. down, moves the vehicles. There has been. footage of him released of moving his. cars around. And this man isn't just. moving his cars around. He's just like. full treasure hunting, opening the. trunk, grabbing things. There's a lot. going on for someone who just wants to. go home and fall asleep ASAP. And at one. point, you can see him walking in the. snow with his brightly lit phone up to. his ear. It looks like he's on a phone. call, but we don't know that for sure.

He could be doing a voice memo. He could. be listening to a voice memo. It just. appears to be a phone call. But the. problem is you cannot even ask him about. it because this footage of him in the. Canton Police Department was released. during the second trial where ATF Brian. is not called to testify. The government. does not call him to testify and the. defense I don't think they want to risk. it. >> Oh, it was like somebody else released. it during the second trial, but they. can't ask Brian for any more information. about it. >> It's admitted into evidence, but they. can't say, "Hey, Brian, who are you on.

the phone with?" M. >> ATF Brian says. >> it was again it was a long day. We we we. had traveled the traffic it just seemed. like it dragged on forever. But I think. I did what I typically do after being. out having a couple of drinks. I had. something else to eat and I believe I. might have had another couple of drinks. and either laid on the couch and or or. laid on my bed. Typically I would fall. asleep if I was on the couch and wake up. and go into the bedroom. I don't know. which what location I was in at that. point. Regardless, he says he falls.

asleep and he doesn't wake up until his. phone starts blowing up at 6:30 in the. morning. Most of the calls are coming. from two people. >> Mhm. >> Chief Burkowitz. and Brian Albert. >> Why the [ __ ] they're calling him for. >> Exactly. ATF Brian chooses not to call. Chief Burkowitz back, but he calls Brian. Albert back. Chief Burkowitz is his. bestie bestie. >> Yeah, >> but he calls Brian Albert back. Chief Burkowitz is an early riser and.

typically when he's working that day, we. had a friendship where we would just. kind of check on each other. So I just kind of blew it off like you. know why are you calling me this early? But when I saw Brian Albert calling me. >> that kind of caused some concern. So. he's like it's not that I knew Brian. Albert had something to tell me. It's. that he just doesn't wake up early. We. don't talk like that. Whereas I talk to. Chief Burkowitz every single morning. So. this is a casual phone call I was. getting. This this was alarming to me. That's why I picked his phone call over. his. So, you know, he was out with me.

all day. We both had the same long day. I was concerned at that point. So, he. picks up the call. He talks to Brian. Albert. And that's when he finds out. that John O'Keefe was found laying on. the lawn outside. ATF Brian says that in. that moment, he was very confused. >> The math didn't make sense. John and the. defendant never showed up. People were. were in shock. >> He says it didn't make sense. So he gets. dressed, rushes over to 34 Fair View. where a few of the Mc Albert family. members have gathered. ATF Brian says.

the energy was just distraught. He ends. up staying for about an hour and he. doesn't really recall with 100%. certainty. what else he did, but he's off that day. He's off January 29th, 2022. He just. found out that someone that he is. friends with passed away. >> Yeah. What would you do on your off day? Would you go grieve? Would you go mourn? Would you spend time with your family? Cuz you're like, I I need I'm sad. >> He goes on his off day.

>> to the office. >> To Canton Police Station. >> You weren't scheduled to work that. Saturday, correct? >> No. >> Matter of fact, you weren't on duty at. all. >> No, I wasn't. >> He doesn't recall how long he was there. or what time he was there from. But he. he wasn't on duty that day. He's not. working that day. He doesn't go home to. grieve. doesn't sleep. He doesn't run. errands. He goes directly from 34 Fair. View to Canton Police Department. ATF. Brian says he just stopped by, but the. defense argues that his key card shows. access all the way from 9:00 a.m. to.

5:00 p.m. >> Brian is like, "Well, that I I could. have left and come back. I could have. like left and periodically kept coming. back all day.". >> You could have. >> And then they're like, "Okay, but you. were still there for a long time." At. that point, ATF Brian meets with some of. the state troopers that have now just. been assigned to the case. Trooper. Proctor and Trooper Buchanan, both of. whom he knows. >> ATF Brian testifies. So, I was familiar. with Trooper Buchanan. Evidently, I was.

reminded by Trooper Proctor that I had. met with him before. I think I had. helped him on a gun recovery that he. made, but I I didn't remember him. He. says that he's not close with either of. them. I had seen Troopa Buchanan on a. number of occasions um at the a local. gym. I had seen him one time at the. hillside. I think he might have been. with his child after a sporting event. I. think I bought I said hello. I bought. him a drink. >> ATF Brian says, "I wouldn't classify.

that as socializing, more being. friendly." And that's that. Nothing else. of particular value has been noted by. the Honorable Brian Higgins. Also, ATF. Brian testifies that he knows the name. of Colin Albert. He knows that he's one. of Chris Albert's sons. However, if. Colin Albert were to walk into the. courtroom today, he would have not a. single clue that that is Colin Albert. ATF Brian testifies that he does not. know what Colin Albert looks like. >> I know the name and I know that he is. one of the sons of uh Chris Elvet. >> Uh, you familiar with what he looks.

like? >> If he walked in here right now, I. wouldn't know. >> And he just feels the need to throw that. out there. A lot of people just don't. like his testimony. Everything boils. down to if I did that, if I knew that, I. would have done that. With one net in. writing, they kill me. These witnesses. kill me when they act like they don't. understand the questions. Then you have. Brian Albert, the homeowner. Homeowner. Brian. Brian Albert is sitting on the. witness stand dressed like a defendant. White collared shirt, tie, sweater. jacket on top. It's We're making a.

comeback here. Brian Albert retained. counsel, which is not a bad thing to do. It is crazy how attorneys will make. people look bad for hiring attorneys. And I'm like, you are also an attorney. I don't understand. But it is odd in the. sense that Brian Albert cannot tell you. anything about this attorney. I'm not. talking privileged conversations. I'm. talking Brian Albert does not recall, does not remember the date, even the. month, even the season, even the year in.

which he hired this attorney. Why is he just trying to play like I. don't recall. I don't recall. I don't. recall. >> Yeah, but I think he's also trying to be. like if it's too early on that looks. suspicious. >> Ah, I see. I see. Like though even those. information that that's like so. harmless, he's like I'm I'm just not. going to say anything. >> Yeah, I don't know. I don't recall. Do. you have amnesia? He also conveniently. forgets that he talked to the. prosecution even just a few hours ago. The direct examination of Brian Albert. is exactly what you expect. He testifies.

that he comes to the house. He lets. Khloe out from upstairs, goes outside to. use the restroom, hangs out a little bit. in the kitchen. Kloe does. And then. Brian sends Kloe back upstairs to go to. sleep in their master bedroom. And then. uh he hangs out with everyone. Everybody. leaves. He goes upstairs, knocks out, falls asleep, and does not wake up until. his sister-in-law, Jen McKay, bursts. into the room. The cross-examination of. Brian Albert just starts spicy. It sets. the tone for the entire cross.

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Brian Albert how many times he's. testified before. Cuz he's a cop. It's. probably around a hundred times cops. testify in trials. When was the last. time you spoke to Mr. Lai before Friday. when you began testifying? >> Before Friday, the last time I spoke to. Mr. Lai was, I believe, on a conference. call around the time of my grand jury. testimony, >> which would have been 2022. >> Yes. >> Uh, April of 2022. >> Yes. >> It's not uncommon for you to prep.

witnesses. This is a very normal thing. The government will call a witness and. they will prep a witness. They'll even. cross. this defense attorney. >> You've not spoken with Mr. >> I don't remember speaking with Mr. Lai. since that time. No. >> What about anybody else from the. district attorney's office? >> No. >> But Brian also goes on to say that he. did watch a video of everybody at the. Waterfall Bar to prep for this trial.

That was back in April of 2022. No, that was for the prep for this for. this trial. >> With whom did you prep with this trial. for? Mr. Lai. I'm confused. I thought. you had not spoken with Mr. Lai since. April of 2022. >> Except for the prep for this trial, I. had not. >> Okay, that was my question, Mr. Albert. >> Okay, I misunderstood your question. I. apologize. >> Did you prep for this trial with Mr. Lowry? >> Yes. >> When? >> Um, approximately a few weeks ago. >> Mr. Albert, about 45 seconds ago, I.

asked you, "Have you spoken with Mr. Lai. before your testimony in this. proceeding?" And your answer was, "No, I. have not." Did you not understand my. question? >> I did not. >> What was confusing about it? >> That's crazy. Meanwhile, you're a cop. standing here playing dumb. Oh, I didn't. understand your question. What was your. question again? Repeat that. I didn't. understand. >> I I didn't even know I had a prep. Out. of anyone, you know what the system is. like. >> You know exactly what's going on. I was.

expecting you to ask if I had prepped. with Mr. Lai. I didn't hear prepped with. Mr. Lai, so I didn't know what you were. referring to. >> I said spoke with Mr. Lai. Since I. didn't say prep with Mr. Lai, your. answer was no. I didn't speak with him. I just prepped with him. >> Yes. >> What's the difference between speaking. and prepping? >> No, there is no difference. I just. misunderstood your question, that's all. >> A lot of Nzens feel like this already. broke credibility for Brian Albert. because he's being so evasive and fishy. with his words. A lot of netzens. believe, what is happening? Like what is. the literal point in lying about this.

when this is so common? But one comment. reads, "What if it was a very silent. prep?" Like they never spoke. Obviously. being sarcastic. And everyone in this. family and circle of friends is just. evasive for no reason. Later, the. defense starts asking Brian Albert about. how close he was with Karen, how well he. knows her. He says he's never met her. Well, maybe he met her once in a bar. Then he makes it appear like they don't. even really know each other aside from. their first names. Except just a week. before John O'Keefe's death, there's a.

photo of Chris Albert, Brian Albert, John O'Keefe, and a guy named Tim. Dailyaly in a bar together. And the. person that took that photo is Karen. Reed. Attorney Jackson is asking Brian. Albert, Karen Reed, took the photo. You're literally staring at her, correct? I don't know who took the. photo. Who do you think took the photo, sir? I have no idea who took the photo. Could it have been Karen Reed? Objection. sustained. Nizens are having split. reactions to this part of the testimony. Some believe defense is grasping at.

straws. Others are joking. Is the. defense also going to point out that. Brian's hand seems to be clenched into a. fist in that picture? Others think it's. frustrating how much amnesia this entire. town has. And suddenly they think it. casts a lot of reasonable doubt in the. case. People say they just don't like. Brian's energy. They say it's kind of a. pure talent that he has to be able to. give such infuriatingly vague answers to. every single question. Some people are. commenting, "What's up with amnesia in. this town? Is there something in the. water?" Others. >> I think their their evasiveness is only.

make them look more sus. If you don't. remember to just try your best to I. think whenever Karen Reed gets brought. up, they try to distance so hard that it. made it seem more shady. Just say, "Oh, I met her. I met her twice, three times, four times." Instead of like, "I don't. recall. Maybe I don't know her. I don't. know. >> And they have to be evasive about. everything. >> Yeah. >> And it's very weird for the jurors. because these people, they seem to hate. the defense, but the jurors don't. You're just being combative for no. reason.

>> I wonder if this strategy would have. worked in like a traditional case that's. not this high-profile, >> I think. So, >> you can get away with these things. You're like, well, that could be the. case. Some people say, "Well, yeah, he's. being evasive because every single. question coming from the defense sounds. accusatory. Of course, everyone's on. edge." Some people are saying the. defense team, they're so hostile. Maybe. it's because just like Brian Higgins, Brian Albert does something that pisses. off the defense. He throws away his.

phone. He gets rid of his phone as well. Both the Brians have now gotten rid of. their phones and their cops. >> What exactly happened? Like the day of. the day after. what's going on? >> No, not even the. >> But then also like throwing away the. phone is kind of dumb because there's a. record of everything, right? >> So there is a cell record, but you don't. have text message records. When you pull. um a lot of data, >> text messages are hard to pull from the. service provider. You'll see who you're. texting, >> but you won't get the exact messages.

And the cell data will show incoming or. outgoing call, right? and they'll give. you duration, >> but it will not indicate if that. duration went to voicemail. If that. duration was on the phone, >> okay, so Michael Proctor, the no nudes. Michael Proctor, >> yes, >> they pull his phone. >> Yes, >> they took his phone. >> The feds. >> The feds, but Brian Hagen and Brian. Albert toss the phone. >> And the timing of this is going to be. crazy. Attorney Jackson asks Brian.

Albert. Sir, you had an iPhone with the. number ending in 0888 back in January. 2022, did you not? Yes, Mr. Albert, you. were notified by the Commonwealth that. on September 23rd, 2022, a judge. specifically ordered that you were to. preserve that phone. >> I don't remember receiving that. document, though. Subsequent to me. upgrading my phone, I spoke with the. DA's office. So after that, they told me. via a phone call that that was the case.

>> So your testimony is that you never. received a notice that I just read, but. you did talk to the DA and he told you. loudly told you that you were on notice. that you were to preserve your phone. Was that the conversation, sir? >> So I don't have the exact date of the. conversation. I'm not sure. >> Who did you talk to on the phone. exactly? Was it Mr. Lai alone? Was it a. conference call? It was a conference. call. Brian says he believes other. witnesses involved in this case were on. the conference call being told the same. thing. Can you name some of those. witnesses for us? >> I believe it was Brian Higgins. I.

believe Jen McCabe, Matt McCabe, and. maybe somebody else, but I can't I can't. recall. >> Did you volunteer that? Oh my goodness. I just upgraded my phone last week. I. don't have that phone anymore. >> No, >> you didn't say that to Mr. Ly. >> No, >> you just took the information that he. gave you and hung up the phone. And what. about your business? >> Yes. without notifying him that the very. phone that he had just ordered you to. preserve had just been destroyed. deserving.

>> Destroyed. >> Destroyed. Well, that's what the defense. is saying. Brian is saying, >> "No, the phone wasn't destroyed. I. upgraded the phone.". >> The data was destroyed, sir. Correct. >> I did not destroy any data on any phone. >> Where's the phone? >> He doesn't have it. >> We don't know where. It went. >> So, the Brian Higgins, you're saying he. tossed it into a military? Yes. >> Okay. Are you going to explain more on. that or Yes. Oh, okay. Okay. >> Now, Mr. Albert, I I upgraded my phone. When you upgrade your phone, you know.

that the phone is set back to factory. reset before your new phone is handed to. you. Correct. Happens every time. >> I I don't know that. >> How many times have you upgraded your. phone? Multiple times. Every single time. you upgraded, you know that the phone. prior, the data is destroyed on it. Correct. So, it seems like he's trading. the phone in. >> Mm. >> You know that data is destroyed when you. when you upgrade your phone, right? I. think some things are come over across. contacts, things like that. So I I I. don't know that for sure. >> That's a backup. No, I don't I don't. think that that that that's a backup,

but okay. Irrespective. You didn't tell. Mr. Lai that you had gotten rid of the. phone. I was not asked that, so I didn't. tell him that. >> I see. You felt like if you weren't. asked that, you didn't need to volunteer. it, even though the conference call was. specifically about preserving your phone. pursuant to a a judge's order. Correct. >> What was the question? You didn't offer to Mr. Lai that you had. gotten rid of the very phone that he was. telling you had to be preserved due to. the judge's order. >> I did not. >> When did you upgrade your phone? I.

upgraded my phone in September. 3rd week. of September. Maybe around the 22nd. I. can't be sure of the exact date. >> Wait, but when you upgrade you if they. transfer the phone. >> Yes. >> the text message gets gets transferred. too. >> Yes, but he did not do that. >> Oh, he just restarted a new phone. That. is freaking weird. >> So, according to you, you got. >> Wait, that is so weird. That's beyond. weird. >> Hello. Is Am I the only one? That's. crazy. >> No, it's weird. >> That is so crazy. >> It's crazy.

>> So, according to you, you got rid of the thumb that was the. subject of a court order preservation. the day before it was ordered preserved. >> So, the court order came out 23rd. Mhm. >> He got rid of his phone September 22nd. >> Yeah. The timing. >> The timing. Did someone warn him? Did he. get a heads up? >> Wow. >> Rephrase the question, please. >> What's the What? Rephrase the question, please.

>> He's saying that usually the judge says. that. Okay. The day before this all. happened, you upgraded your phone and. got rid of it in total. Correct. I. upgraded my phone around the 22nd. Yes. You are aware that the very data that. you were ordered to preserve would have. been destroyed according to you the day. before the court order. Correct. >> Rephrase your question or ask me a. question. >> If you're if you're Are you claiming. that you got rid of your phone on the. 22nd? >> I upgraded my phone around that. I'm not. sure if that's the exact date, but yes.

>> So, could it could have been after the. 22nd? >> I don't think it was after the 22nd. >> Could have been the 24th. >> No. >> Could have been the 25th. >> No. So, you're absolutely sure that you. could not have upgraded your phone and. gotten rid of it anytime after the 23rd. when this judge ordered that it be. preserved? >> No. >> Because you know that if you got rid of. that phone after you had been notified. that you were ordered by a court to. preserve it, you'd be committing a. felony. >> Objection. >> Sustained.

>> Objection sustained. Yeah, I'm getting riled up cuz of these. Uh, Auntie Bev is going to come in. episode 4. There's a lot of words people. are saying about Auntie Bev. So, now you. claim that you got rid of your phone. September 22nd, 2022, hours before you. were ordered to preserve it. That's your. testimony. >> Yes. >> Is that just a coincidence? >> Um, September 4th was my birthday. The. phone was broken and failing. Um, I had. planned on getting a new phone and that. just happens to be the day that I got.

it. >> Happy birthday. Was that a coincidence? >> That's what you're saying today to these. jurors. Just a coincidence? Yes. Did you. and Brian Higgins agree with each other. to both get rid of your phones? No. Jackson brings up the fact that in. previous testimony, Brian says he. recalls having conversation about the. phones with ATF Brian, but he doesn't. really recall much more. Now, he's being. asked that, like, didn't you have. conversations with ATF Brian about. getting rid of your phones? And he says, I don't recall what time.

>> Mr. Albert, I don't care when it was. I'm asking you, have you ever had a. conversation with Brian Higgins about. your phones, respectively? >> We may have. I just don't I can't. remember that conversation specifically. Who did he tell that to? FBI. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> So, Brian Albert gets rid of his phone. No clue where it is. Brian Higgins gets. rid of his phone. Literally drives it to. a military base to dump it. But then how. do we have all these text messages. between Brian Higgins, Karen Reed, Brian.

Higgins, and John O'Keefe? Well, Karen. Reed's phone was taken, John O'Keefe's. phone was taken. So, is it just from. their phones? >> Mhm. >> No, Brian Higgins gives over those text. messages. He uses a federal device to. extract message threads. So, a lot of. feds, they have these machines where. when the feds go through your phone, that's this is a huge thing. Not just. the feds, any law enforcement officer, when they go through your phone, they. don't actually go through your physical. phone. Mhm. >> They hook it up to a computer or machine. and it's a mirrored image of your phone.

>> This guy was going through Karen's phone. physically looking for nudes. So that's. like already bad. >> Wait, what do you mean? Uh upload your. phone to a cloud and then they can. access everything. >> It's not like uploaded to a cloud. It's. just connected to a device. I think it's. so that everything is tracked. Yeah. Like you don't just like scroll through. someone's phone like that. >> Interesting. Okay. >> So he's just going through Karen's phone. like that, which is already bad. And. he's looking for nudes. You're saying he. was going through Karen's phone without. this official government monitor. He's. just like browsing.

>> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Now, Brian Higgins goes to one of these. machines and you can extract certain. data and this is very important. especially with suspects who have. attorneys because there's like different. panels as well. Sometimes if there's a. lot of and this was a problem with the. Shan Combmes case and it was very. technical. Let's say I have a phone. where I have tons of communication with. my attorney on there about this specific. case. immediately. tons of privileged information.

attorney who will take out all of the. privileged information, give that back. to me and my council and then give the. non-privileged information to the law. enforcement agencies. But you're saying. that's like the police have to follow. this code of law and be ethical and not. browsing looking for nudes and looking. for. >> Yeah. I mean, it's typically easier in. the sense of like you it's easy to prove. that you have lots of privileged. communications and then you would bring.

it up with the judge and it would become. a whole ordeal, right? But I mean, they. just be doing whatever. >> Now, Brian Higgins goes to one of these. machines and you can extract certain. data. So, like that's the whole point. You can take certain data with its. metadata. >> So you can take certain text threads. with all the metadata. >> and that's it. You're not doing a copy. of the entire phone. You're just. selecting this specific text message. thread between person A and person B. So. Brian Higgins goes to this machine, gets. two text message threads, one with Karen.

Reed and one with John O'Keefe, and he. submits them himself to Buchanan, the. state trooper. This is before his phone. was destroyed or after. >> And then immediately after he destroys. his phone, >> what's his explanation? >> Because if he doesn't give these text. messages. >> they're going to want his phone, >> right? >> They're going to say, "You're weird. You're sus. We need to go through your. phone." So, he's trying to get ahead of. it. Is what a lot of people believe. I'm. not in Brian Higgins mind, thankfully. I.

think I would not like it there. Um, but. he says, "I thought it was important. because I've had communications with. both of them and I wanted to be fully. transparent." He says he was never asked. for these. He voluntarily gave them over. to the state troopers. But here's what's. interesting. Trooper Buchanan is on the. stand and his whole testimony is in the. next one. He says, "I explained to Mr. Higgins that we have in our custody and. will eventually get to both the. defendant's phone and Mr. O'Keefe's. phone. So to protect Brian Higgins. integrity as a law enforcement official,

I told him that the information he was. providing to us better be true and. accurate or else he would suffer the. consequences. Aka giving him a chance to. rectify anything he didn't turn over. Basically, he's saying, "Hey, we're. going to go through the text messages. soon. They got to match up to what we. have in their phones." Okay. >> Wink wink. >> Yeah. >> Because I want to protect, what did he. say? protect the. >> his integrity as a law enforcement. official. ATF Brian is asked during the. cross- examination, you would agree that.

searching electronic devices and phones. is an incredibly important investigative. tool that modern investigators use. Correct. >> I've I've utilized uh phone data during. the course of my investigations at. times. Yes. >> You've probably even written search. warrants for them, right? Things of that. nature, right? Yes. So, how do you get. rid of information on your cell phone? He could wipe you fall factory factory. reset. >> So that might be one avenue he could. break the sin card in half or it. >> could. Yes, >> that's exactly what he does. He breaks.

it in half and gets rid of it. He says. it it was beaten. It was broken up. already. I already had a new phone and. the only explanation is I throw it away. That's it. Later he says I had a target. of an investigation I was working with. He's like this is the reason I changed. my phone. Okay. I was doing this. undercover investigation. the target of. that investigation said he knew my. personal cell phone number and I was. like, "How did you know?" He said he. obtained it through open source. internet. So, I went online and lo and. behold, my phone number is out there.

So, I had to get a new phone number. And. he's like, "Quit lying with me. Quit. playing with me because you waited 3. months afterwards to change your phone. number from the time that that target of. your investigation told you that your. phone number is open source.". >> So, where's your phone? I do not have. that phone anymore. >> You've destroyed that phone, haven't. you? >> No, I threw the phone away. >> Well, that's destroying the phone, isn't. it? >> I had every right to do that. >> I didn't ask you about your rights. I.

asked you what you did. >> Objection. >> Sustained. >> You destroyed the phone by removing the. SIM card. Correct. Did you do that? Did. you pull the SIM card out? To the best. of my recollection, if I did take the. SIM card out, I would have thrown it. away. If I was going to take it out, I. would break it or cut it. But I did not. wipe the phone. I did not take anything. else off of it, but I was just going to. throw the phone away. That's what I. would have done. You were aware that. there was a court order that was to not. alter, delete, or destroy in any way. manipulate your phone or any electronic. data associated with it. Correct. September 30th, 2022 for you. And you.

were served a notice on September 30th, 2022. That's correct. Isn't it true that. in another hearing you explained that on. September 29th, the day before you. claimed you got that notice, you changed phone carriers? Also, >> both of them the day before one upgraded. the phone, the other one changed his. whole carrier. >> But like, how did they find out about. this? So, the timing is suspicious, which means potentially they have some.

sort of connection with the inside. And. it makes me feel like if the FBI wasn't. involved in this case, I don't know if, you know, they will win. this case because, you know, the Cam, the Boston, Massachusetts, the judge, DA, everyone's like the same team. >> allegedly. I also think him getting on. this case because regardless of what you. think of Alan Jackson and his previous. current clients, he is a big name. >> I think that did bring a lot more.

attention as well. And I think it. brought a lot of pressure. >> because he's not just someone that's. going to walk in and be like, "Oh, everything's weird. >> Let me just clock in, clock out." I. mean, not that David Yianetti or any of. the other defense teams were, but he's. pretty nationally known. It is weird. that Higgins just turns in these text. messages and the state troopers don't. look further into ATF Brian. In any other case, any other situation, a very strong motive that cops love. going after is the jealousy motive. But.

Trooper Beck, one of the state. investigators, he's asked during his. trial. He explains the messages as. >> no, these were uh, you know, uh, friendly communications. Uh, I again, I. don't want to put a label on it. There. were communication between acquaintances. or people that know each other. He's. asked if the texts were flirtatious, to. which he says, >> "As far as flirtatious, I would have to. take a look at the content of it for. certain terms that would support that.

label.". >> And the defense is like, "Okay, sure. Here you go." They gave him a pile of. text messages between Brian Higgins and. Karen Reed. Play stupid games, win. stupid prizes. Now he's reading through. it, and many netizens argue Buchanan is. stupid. He's also incredibly committed. to his role in all of this because after. reading these text messages with a. straight face, he has asked, >> "Would you consider those text messages. as you reviewed them when you received. them from Brian Higgins as being. flirtatious or romantic in nature?". >> I would not categorize them to that.

extent. Uh certain parts of it might be, but the total conversation, if you want. my opinion, I can I can provide you with. it. >> He's asked to point out which parts. There are terms that I used. You're hot. Um, witty, stuff like that. You know, talking about banging and and hooking. up. >> What word would you use to describe them. if not flirtatious? >> My my opinion is that it's a angry. girlfriend trying to set up a hookup.

>> What does that even mean? As a. reasonable objective investigator, is. there a possible scenario for Brian. Higgins to be jealous about John. O'Keefe? There is a possibility there, but I didn't see it based off the. totality of the evidence. >> The length these people will go to cover. each other. >> Yeah. >> When the whole nation is looking at them. like, "Why are you doing this? You're. you look so dumb right now.". >> Yeah. His nickname on the internet is. Officer Bukaki. >> Bukaki. And uh it's going to become a.

thing because one of these witnesses. goes on the stand. It's in the next. episode. And she's like, I forget his. name. I think Officer Bukaki. >> This is what. >> this is not real. None of this is real, but it's very real and it makes me very. depressed. There is a clip from the. Waterfall Bar that the defense wants. everybody to watch and it is of Brian. Albert and ATF Brian pretending to throw. punches at each other. They're like play. fighting.

>> I don't know why they're doing this. They're acting like high school football. players. Some say they're acting like. they're play fighting. Others saying. they look like they're practicing. fighting. These are the men that fight. invisible ops. They're just like boxing. the air at all hours of the day. Brian. Albert seems like the mentor. There is. CCTV footage where they're squatting. They're doing like punching stances. They're like air punching. At one point, Brian Albert throws ATF Brian in a bear. hug. I mean, without context, it just.

looks like they're dry humping. But then. Brian ATF Brian pretends to push a knee. into his stomach. It's just a lot. Brian. Albert testifies, "We're just fooling. around. We're just pushing each other. around, fooling around." Oh, so like. play fighting. >> I don't think I would call it play. fighting. No, I was just. >> practicing fighting techniques. >> I don't I wouldn't call it that. >> If it's not fighting techniques, how. would you describe it? just joking, being silly, just fooling around. >> Nicole, Brian's husband also saw this. and she says they were just I saw them.

fooling around with each other. >> I want to know what what kind of setup. you're going to be like, okay, let's. fool around real quick. You know, let me. show you how to how to take a jab. What's the setup? >> The defense says the setup is, hey, John. O'Keefe's coming. What are you going to. do to him? >> Right. Right. Right. That's what I'm. saying. >> Cuz anything else doesn't make sense. Tell tell me Brian like what made you. guys decide to do this fooling around? >> If not that then what? Right. >> Yeah. >> Miss Albert, when your husband drinks,

does he often get into sort of these. practice sparring, practice fighting. stances? Is that common for him? >> No, I don't think so. >> So, this type of behavior was unusual. for him. >> No, I think they were just fooling. around. I don't think there was anything. much to it. >> She's just like, damn it, I should have. said that's very common. He does it. every day. to me as well to everybody. Yeah. >> My question was, is it unusual for you. to see him sort of practice fighting? >> I wouldn't call that practice fighting. I think they were just fooling around. And yeah, maybe I've seen him do that.

other times, but it was fooling around. They weren't practicing. >> The defense tries to point out, one, sure, Brian Albert is older now, but he. is a highly trained fighter. That's how. they phrase it. Nicole Albert highly. disagrees, but aside from being a Boston. police officer, he's trained in the. Marine Corps previously and he's a. trained boxer. But Brian Albert says. that this is just joking around. It's. just him fooling around. But Brian. Albert also states when he's asked about. Brian Higgins, he's like, "Hey, is ATF. Brian your friend?" He's like, "Define.

friends." He's like, >> "Define friends. >> We just kind of know each other from. work. I don't know if I would call it. friends." The defense is like, "You've. known this man for 15 years. You just. took a 4-hour long road trip with him. He came over to your house. You're. fooling around in a bar and you would. not categorize yourself as friends." To. which he finally is like, "We are. friends. We are friends." Yeah, we're. friends. >> Yo, this is crazy. They interview people. every day. Now tables flipped all of a. sudden.

>> So bad. >> So bad. >> I saw one netizen put it way better than. I can explain it. It's extra insulting. because they're evil and they're dumb. and they're getting away with it. >> Mhm. >> So, it's like just spitting in the. public's face over and over again just. because what? You're law enforcement. He. says, "Yeah, we're good friends. We're. just fooling around. You just said you. weren't friends. Define friends, right?". Meanwhile, ATF Brian does not get the. memo because he describes Brian Albert. as. >> he's a good friend. Uh he's a coworker.

I had been working closely with his um. his unit. Um. I I'd say tell he was a good friend. >> Nizens comment it's like pulling teeth. to get regular answers from these. people. Nevertheless, the defense states. whether or not they were playf fighting. has importance and they're like, "Brian, you're a fighter, aren't you?" He's. like, "Nah." A side note, there are. rumors online that Brian Albert had. gotten into a fight with another cop at. a Christmas party before. It seems like.

he has a propensity for fighting. >> as well as this one. >> Colin Arbor. >> ATF Brian had allegedly told the feds. again that Chief Burkowitz is also. scared of Brian Albert. So maybe he is a. fighter, but he really tries to downplay. this during the trial to the point where. attorney Jackson tries to break it down. >> What was your job title in January 2022? >> Sergeant detective. >> That means you not only respond to. incidents, uh, you actually conduct. investigations as a detective. Correct. Yes. Primarily uh fugitive.

investigations. >> You have additional training in order to. hold the title and hold the position as. a detective. Is that right? >> Yes. >> Not just regular patrol officer. You. have to have special training to get the. rank of detective. Is that right? >> Yes. >> As a sergeant detective, that's above a. regular detective. Indeed, because. you're supervising detectives, is that. right? >> Yes. >> You're also trained in techniques. Obviously, any detective would be. trained in techniques that culprits. might use or suspects might use to cover. up crimes to thwart investigations. Correct. >> No. So, in all your training, 30 years. of a Boston police officer and a.

sergeant detective, you don't have any. training in I don't know what techniques. criminals might use to cover up their. conduct. >> No, I've never gone to a training for. criminals to cover up conduct. No. >> He also downplays all of his physical. training. He acts like he's just a. patrol officer. Not that anything's. wrong with the patrol officer, but he's. just like, I'm not that fit. I'm not. that strong. I'm not a big guy. I'm. weak. I'm dainty and frail. In the. reality show Boston's Finest, in episode. 3, there's a whole thirst trap level. boxing segment of Brian Albert just. going at it at the boxing gym. And it's.

a voiceover of him saying, "You have to. have undercover police officers actually. going out posing as buyers and making. drug buys. It's dangerous work. Anything. can happen." And he's like double. fisting a small punching bag. He clearly. knows what he's doing. And again, nizens. think, why does he have to be so. evasive? You would imagine that a lot of. these law enforcement officers are. somewhat physically trained. One comment. reads, "If you look very closely, their. noses are growing." Others say, "Come.

on, this is so bad. He can't even. remember what he talked about an hour. ago." Some say Brian Albert is like a. slippery snake. Others say Karen Reed. should get the max penalty for putting. these people through all of this. This. is awful. >> Maybe he knows that being suspicious. will not be charged. >> Yeah. But if he says anything, then he's. cooked. >> Yeah. And I do think that it's extra. cautious because the feds. >> And in the reality show, Brian Albert.

even says, "It's very rewarding when. someone commits a crime or they hurt. somebody and you're the person that. actually catches them. It's probably one. of the best things you can do." At the. end of the show, Boston's finest, they. end with a voiceover and it says, "The. decision to become a police officer is. never an easy one. But for these men and. women of the Boston Police Department, in the end, it was the only decision. they could make. Some joined the force. to protect the streets where they grew. up. Some to say thanks to the new city. that welcomed them in. Every day they.

take to the streets without fail, carrying with them the love they have. for their families, the memories of the. friends they've lost, all their hopes, all their fears. They do it. They do it. for the city of Boston. >> That was Brian talking. >> No. >> Narrator, what? September 4th, 2023. Before the first trial for Karen Reed, Brian Albert is no longer doing that. because he retires from Boston Police. Department. >> Okay. >> Nicole Albert, Brian's wife, fellow. homeowner of 34 Fairview Road, testifies.

this is Jen McCabe's sister. She's also. a part-time lunch lady. That's how she. calls it. during direct. She says, "You. know, John came into the waterfall. She. doesn't really know John O'Keefe." She. says, >> "I didn't know him that well. I think I. had only met him once, maybe twice. through my sister." Um, brief. interaction. I think when he first. walked in, actually, I didn't recognize. him. I wasn't I think I said to someone, "Oh, who's that?" Cuz they were kind of. walking towards our table and they said, "Oh, you know, it's John O'Keefe." I. said, "Oh, you know, I had never met.

Karen and I'd only met John once or. twice." It's interesting because your. husband is on the same police department. as John O'Keefe, but she says, >> "No, I don't believe you ever work with. my husband. I don't believe they ever. cross paths at work.". >> And to be fair, uh Boston Police. Department is about 3,000 officers. >> Wow. >> So, it it does seem feasible if they. don't cross paths often. Now, Nicole. says she doesn't have a single. interaction with Karen. She says, >> "I had none. I don't believe we spoke or. we were introduced or anything. I don't.

think we spoke at all." In fact, Nicole. states in her testimony she didn't even. know that John and Karen were coming. over. The rest of the evening they go. home. It's relatively normal. Nicole. says that she just started cleaning the. kitchen when she got home. And um. everybody left. She stayed cleaning the. kitchen a little more while her husband. Brian Albert went upstairs to watch TV. in bed. And Elizabeth Little is asking. her, "Miss Albert, what is the first. thing you remember waking up to in the. morning of January 29th?". >> My sister bombing into my bedroom. Did. you hear any fire trucks that morning?

>> I did not. >> Did you hear any ambulances? >> I did not. >> You didn't see the flashing lights of. emergency vehicles outside your bedroom. window? >> I did not. My blinds were shut and my. curtains were closed. I did not see. anything. >> Nicole and Brian Albert will both report. that Jen burst into their room. hysterical. And it's kind of interesting. because if you watch the dash cam. footage, if you listen to the 911 call. or the testimonies of anyone at the. scene that morning, nobody describes Jen.

as being hysterical except these two. >> Yeah. She was so calm. She was like, "I. know. I know.". >> Yes. >> Even the 911 call, she was calm. >> Calm. The only person that was not calm. was Karen Reed. >> Yes. >> Um Yes. I need someone to come to 34. road and he can't math. I think he's. dead. need. Oh, like you got to get here. ASAP. Okay, >> I'm going to transcend. I'm going touch. it again. >> Okay, I know. I know. I know, honey. I. know. I know. >> Okay. Thank you. >> So, they're like she was hysterical.

bursting in through the door. Now, that's weird because they both testify. that Chloe slept in the room with them. that night. >> Uh-huh. >> If I were Jen, I know my sister has a. dog, >> a 70 lb German Shepherd that doesn't. like strangers, maybe perhaps is. startled easily. I'm not bursting into. your room. Also, if my brother-in-law is. a cop, I'm not bursting into your room. >> Right. Right. Right. >> To wake you up from asleep. And by this. point that Jen is bursting into their.

room, John O'Keefe has already been. taken into the ambulance. So, it doesn't. make sense. The only time that that. would make sense that for her to be. bursting into their room is nobody's. there. They need to save John. He's a. first responder. >> Yeah. >> It's weird. Caitlyn Albert, the eldest. Albert daughter. Caitlyn works for the. Massachusetts Attorney General's office. in the Medicaid fraud division. She is. the eldest child of the main Alberts. And she testifies that that morning on.

the 28th, she meets up with her mom, Nicole Albert, and her aunt, Julie. Albert, and they go to the waterfall. together. So, Julie, Nicole, and. Caitlyn. And Caitlyn shows up with her. fiance Tristan. Ah, I see. >> Who does not want to be there? >> Okay. >> There's a blizzard coming in. He had. gotten offered to do some snow plowing. >> Um, so we were waiting for the snow. I. just had to be on call for 3:00 to 4:00. in the morning, just have my phone on. standby and be ready to go. Just how it. always is.

>> Like his job, his side gig. >> It's like a side gig. >> Okay. >> So, that's why he ends up leaving the. bar early. He's like, "Bye, Caitlyn. Love you. I'm leaving." He leaves the. bar. And Caitlyn says she remembers at. the waterfall she asked her mom who's. John O'Keefe. Caitlyn says that she does. not know who John O'Keefe is. But a man. walks into the bar with who now she. knows is Karen Reed. And he seemed very. friendly with their group of family and. friends. Her mom tells her, "Oh, that's. John." Which I mean, Nicole just said.

that someone told her that's John. So I. don't know if they're playing telephone. or what, but her mom tells her it's. John. And Caitlyn instantly knows it's. him because everybody in Canton knows. about his niece and nephew being raised. by him after his sister passed. But she. doesn't really talk to John or Karen at. all. Nothing eventful happens at the. bar. Caitlyn goes home with her parents. and the same things are repeated about. the birthday party. Everyone's in the. kitchen. Everyone can see everyone just. hanging out. Good times. Everybody. leaves one by one. Caitlyn doesn't hear. anything strange. She doesn't see. anything strange. Everyone leaves and.

eventually Caitlyn is the last to go. So, by the end of the night, inside the. house are just Brian Albert, Nicole. Albert, Brian Albert Jr., and Chloe the. dog. >> and John O'keefee outside. >> But Caitlyn leaves time. >> around 2:00. >> Huh. her boyfriend Tristan comes to pick. her up, which netizens think that's so. weird because Tristan just left the. waterfall because he has to wake up. overnight to go plow the roads, but then. he leaves the waterfall, leaves Caitlyn.

there, and then Caitlyn goes back home. to 34 Fair View for like an hour and a. half and then gets picked up. >> Mhm. >> It's kind of. >> And they're again, they didn't see. anything. None. Nobody saw John O'Keefe. outside. >> No. And at this point there, it's not. even really snowing, correct? Or barely. >> Barely snowing. Uh, well, it's snowing, but the snow is just starting to. accumulate. Like, you can still see. grass is what a lot of them testify.

It's not like white out conditions until. the next morning, >> right? And how do all of them explain. that? >> They just weren't looking. They weren't. looking. They couldn't see it. It's dark. outside, but they see lots of other. things outside, such as tire tracks in. the snow from Karen's car allegedly. speeding up to hit John O'Keefe. Now, the defense starts into something. else, though, when they start. questioning Caitlyn Albert. She's close. friends with firefighter paramedic Katie.

Mclofflin. During the cross-. examination, she's asked, "Who is Katie. Mclofflin?" and she responds, >> "Um, Katie Mclofflin is a. girl who I'm in the same am the same age. as. Um, we went to high school together. We graduated the same year and we have. um a couple mutual friends. We interact. with some of the same people socially. I. don't really I I can't think of a time.

possibly ever where her and I ever. hung out oneonone or individually. Um so. more of like. a a friend of a mutual friend. There is. a lot of just explanation here just. nonstop. I mean, the defense is bringing. up photos and she just has to keep. repeating this is like a mutual friend. of a friend of a friend and like I. barely know this girl and then there's. like pictures of them in small group. settings at her dorm when she was in. college and then people she's just like.

I mean just like a mutual friend like a. friend of a friend and then even in. these group photos I would understand if. it's one thing if they're on the other. side of this massive group photo every. single time but a lot of the times. they're right next to each other. >> it just doesn't make sense like it looks. a little bit strange. and she keeps. overexlaining that they just have mutual. friends, which is fine if that's the. only connection that she has. But. Caitlyn Albert is also pretty close with.

Michael Proctor's wife. She's not on. here. She's going to be on here in the. next one. Elizabeth Proctor. >> Okay. What's their relationship? >> Just friendly friends. She says that. when Michael Proctor starts interviewing. her about this case, she doesn't tell. him, "Hey, I'm friends with your wife or. anything. Just nothing." The least of. her concerns. Like, she doesn't care, right? And she really doesn't because. the defense have other things that. they're harping on her about. Another. strange thing is that Caitlyn's mom, Nicole, testified previously before the.

grand jury that Caitlyn left the Albert. residence at around 12 midnight. She was. one of the first people to leave. And. now she's testifying that Caitlyn was. the very last person to leave. Same. thing with Brian. The story changes. It's weird. To which the defense asks. Brian Albert, "Were you trying to cover. for Caitlyn so your daughter would not. be wrapped up in this investigation?". Because if she left early, >> it's likely there would be some time. overlap to when Karen's vehicle is. outside or something.

>> I don't follow. >> If she left around 12. >> Mhm. >> she would have seen more outside. She. would have to go outside. Karen's car is. outside. There's another car that's. outside. It might be just a little bit. trickier. >> They're saying that it's easier. story-wise for her to leave later. >> Yes. So, she stays in the house. She. never looks outside the window. She. doesn't see Karen's car pull up. She. sees nothing. She hears nothing. And. then by the time she leaves, she doesn't. look at the front lawn and she just.

leaves. >> Okay. But I mean, regardless, just the. changing of the story, what's going on? Netzens are like, "It's not even the. time change that's weird." Netzens. believe that Caitlyn Albert had every. intention to sleep over at her parents. house. That's why Tristan goes home from. the waterfall. And she's like, "I'm just. going to sleep over at my parents. house." And then something happens. So. now she's like, "Okay, you got to come. pick me up because I can't be here when. the cops get here tomorrow or whenever. they get here." That's the allegation. That's the theory. That's the suspicion.

There are also speculations that she. left the house that night with Chloe. >> That's why there's no barking. Maybe. >> Mhm. And Jen McCabe says she didn't see. Chloe. >> That's true. You can easily hear a dog. barking in the house. Easily. >> So, where did Chloe go? >> Oh my god. >> And why would they not want Chloe there? >> Right. >> It doesn't make sense that Tristan. Morris would just come pick her up. So, he is also brought to the stand and he.

is bizarrely hostile during the cross-. examination. The defense's attorney is. just trying to ask him, "Were you at 34. Fairview Road in Canton at 1:45 in the. morning on January 29th, 2022?". >> I don't remember the time. >> Was it wildly different than 1:45 in the. morning, or was it somewhere close to. that? >> I'm not going to make up a time. I don't. remember. >> Was it 9:00 p.m. on the 28th? >> I don't I don't remember times. So, if I. asked you if you were there to pick up. Caitlyn on 9:00 p.m. on January 28th, you couldn't say if that's true or. false. >> No, because I'm not making up a time.

>> What time were you at the waterfall? >> I don't remember. >> Were you at the waterfall? >> Yes, I was. >> What time did you leave the waterfall? >> I don't remember. >> Would you leave at 5:00 p.m.? >> I don't remember. >> Could it have been 5:00 in the morning? >> Could have been 5 in the morning. I. don't know. >> I I feel like it's a relatively easy. testimony. Like in the eyes of the. jurors, I don't think anyone really. cares about this guy. All you did is. pick up your girlfriend. Just tell us if. there's a dog in the car. Tell us why. you picked up your girlfriend. That's. it. And get out of here.

>> But he Yeah. >> Oh, >> he's getting very defensive. He doesn't. remember anything at all. >> He doesn't want to put himself at the. time if there was something going on. outside or not. >> Yeah. >> He will like he will respond I don't. remember before the question is done. being asked. I didn't say anything. I. don't I don't remember a time. >> No, I I understand. >> So, I'm not going to make up a time. >> Hold Hold on. Only one person can speak. at a time.

>> And there were no obstructions between. you and the front lawn blocking your. view. Correct. >> I wouldn't be staring at her grass. So, no. >> Um, I didn't ask you where you were. staring. I was just asking if there were. any obstructions. >> Okay. Yeah. >> And the answer to that question is. >> no. Later during redirect, Tristan is. asked why he went back to get Caitlyn if. it wasn't part of the plan. Caitlyn told. him that she doesn't want to get snowed. in at her parents house, but this. blizzard is not new information to. anyone in the town of Canter. So, it's. weird. Tristan just responds to that.

>> Well, she's high maintenance. I didn't. really want to have to deal with her. >> And now they're married. They got. married after all of this. >> Brian Albert Jr. Birthday Brian. He sits. down on the witness stand. Netzens do. point out that he has very distinctive. facial hair, but that is neither here. nor there. He joined his father in. wearing the defendant attire to the. witness stand, collared shirt, sweater. But this biggest part about his. testimony that's alarming is that the. very first time that Birthday Brian,

despite being in the house that night. and all morning while John's body is. found outside in the front lawn, the. first time law enforcement officers. talked to him, interview him, is 18. months after John's death, a whole new. calendar year, it's in 2023. And that is. done by Proctor. And Birthday Brian has. a lawyer present. And the interview is. actually done at Birthday Brian's family. attorney's office. 18 months later. >> Yes. >> What is going on? >> And it's not like people were trying to. hide his existence there. Everybody knew.

he was there. >> Yeah. >> It was his 23rd birthday. He says that. his friends come over. Julie and Sarah. and a few other girlfriends come over. and it's just birthday Brian and all of. his buddies at the house. >> They order food from a place called DN. Pizza that is owned by Chris Julie. Albert. And they start getting drunk. Everybody's primary drink of choice is. White Claws. Now, by 11:00 p.m., most of. his friends are gone. So, he says, "It's. just me, Colin, Julie, and Sarah. That's.

who's over when the Albert parents and. Caitlyn get home." So, these three are. the first people to get home. As they're. coming in, they say Colin is leaving. He's like, "My ride is here. My ride's. coming back.". >> Who's his ride? A friend? >> Allison McCabe. Who is that again? >> Jen and Matt McCabe's daughter. >> Chen and Matt McCabe's daughter. >> Brian Albert's cousin on his mom's side.

>> Uhhuh. >> And Colin is Brian Albert's cousin on. his dad's side. So technically Colin. Albert and Allison McCabe are not. cousins, but they're basically cousins. >> Wow. >> And so he leaves and Brian says, "You. know, my mom came in. She just gets. straight to cleaning. She likes to. clean." I don't know why he says that. Uh-huh. >> And she was in the kitchen picking up. He also says eventually JJ comes in. >> JJ, Jen, >> he calls her Auntie JJ, which JJ is also. the nickname for John O'Keefe from his. nephew and niece. So, Auntie JJ comes.

in. And it seems like Brian Albert Jr., Birthday Brian, and Auntie JJ are very. close. I mean, it seems like all the. Alberts are close, but it's weird. because Birthday Brian and JJ seem. close, but Birthday Brian and Allison. McCabe don't seem close because at one. point, Birthday Brian is asked about a. group chat with all the cousins, like a. Snapchat group chat with all the. cousins. And they're like, the defense. attorney is like, "What about Alli. McCabe? Is she on there?" And he's like, >> "No, she's not an Albert.". >> Okay.

Yeah. Bertha Brian testifies that he. didn't see anyone else physically come. inside the house after auntie JJ and. Matt McCabe, but he did poke his head. towards the window and he did see a car. outside. And the reason that he went to. that window was because outside the. house were Ryan Nagel, Heather Maxon, and Ricky. Ricky D. Ryan is Julie's. brother. >> Uh-huh. >> And he's here to pick up Julie. And so. Julie goes outside.

>> Yeah. >> And Brian Albert looks out the window. and he sees Ryan's car, but he also sees. another dark-coled SUV who everyone. presumes to be Karen Reed. >> and John O'Keefe. >> And John O'Keefe. Birthday. Brian says. he looks out the window twice, sees the. dark SUV pull up, and eventually keeps. pulling up towards the flag pole, which. is on the very right side of the. property. He doesn't see anything. strange. He doesn't hear screaming. He. doesn't hear the sound of screeching. tires, a collision. He doesn't see a man.

in the snow on the lawn, but he does at. one point see tire tracks in the snow. He's looking past the lawn now and he. can see tire tracks. And Jen McCabe. later testifies that she also saw tire. tracks, but nobody sees a 210 lb 6'1 man. in the lawn. >> Yeah, that makes no sense. Who's Heather. and Ricky? Ryan Nagel's friend, Ricky D, is actually the one driving. It's Ricky. D's car. >> Okay. >> Heather is Ryan Nagel's girlfriend at.

the time. They're no longer together. >> Okay. So, there's three people in the. car. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Brian says, "As for inside the house, he. didn't see anyone come in. He didn't see. anyone go up and down the basement. stairs. Nothing." And then everybody. leaves eventually. He goes up to his. bedroom on the second floor that faces. the backyard. He falls asleep, wakes up. 7:30, 8:00 a.m. And uh he says, >> I can't recall the exact time. Um I say. maybe I know previous testimony I may. have said earlier, but I don't believe.

it was that early. I would say um 7:30, 8:00 a.m. My dad had knocked on my door. I just um threw on some clothes and I. went downstairs um into the main first. floor of the house. and uh he did not. wake up from emergency vehicles noises. or dogs barking or screaming. Just his. dad knocking on his door to tell him. what happened. That is when he finds. out. He says he doesn't know John. O'Keefe personally. He says, "I knew he. was friendly with my auntie JJ and. that's it." Jen and Matt McCabe, their. testimonies are going to be in part.

three and four because I mean I think we. know everything that's going to be said. I think their testimonies are more. important in the actual investigation. sense of how they interact with all the. troopers because they are doing some. suspicious things. They're being weird. And so that's going to be in three and. four, but they pretty much say the same. thing. Jen is like, I'm texting John. He's not coming in. I see the dark SUV. I look out the window multiple times. I. see tire tracks in the snow. Nobody. comes in. I don't see screeching. I. don't see screaming. I don't hear. anything. And I thought they left. Same.

with Matt McCabe. The other two that are. in the house, Birthday Brian's two. friends, Julie Nagel and Sarah Levenson. Julie says that they order pizza. They're having a good time, but she's. been there for like 6 hours at this. point. So, at 12:15 a.m., she texts her. brother, "Hey, can you come pick me up?". Side note, Julie says she has no idea. how long it took from that text message. to be sent for him to drive up outside. He comes outside with his two friends, Ricky and Heather, and he texts Julie, "Hey, I'm outside.".

>> Mhm. Now, instead of announcing to the. group that her brother is outside and. she will be going home now and retiring. for the night, instead of that, she's. like, "Wait, my brother's outside. I. kind of don't want to leave." All of a. sudden, Jen and Matt McCabe are like, "We'll drive you home." So, she goes out. into the snow and I guess with no. intention of leaving, she walks up to. the pickup truck. She asks her brother. and his friends, "Do you guys want to. come inside? We're drinking and having. fun." Brother is like, "No, I absolutely. do not. I want to go home. Do you want.

to go or not? She's like, "No, I'm going. to catch a ride with the Mabes instead.". So, she goes back inside the house. And. this whole thing is so confusing because. on one hand, she says that the Mabes. offered her a ride. On the other hand, she's like, "Well, when I went out there. to talk to my brother, I didn't know. that I was going to get a ride from the. Mabes." It it's just confusing. But a. big part of her testimony is Julie. states that she sees a dark-coled SUV. outside the house, potentially Karen's. car, but she states that she doesn't. notice that car when she goes outside to. talk to her brother. She thinks that the. car pulled up near the end of her.

conversation with her brother. >> Okay. >> And then when she gets back inside, she. looks out the window and that's when she. notices, hey, there's a car out there. But she doesn't mention anything. She. just takes a note of it. And later when. she looks outside the window, it's. pulled up near the flag pole. And she's. asked when it was pulling up, Miss. Nagel. It wasn't going like 50 mph. Correct. >> I mean, I don't I didn't have a radar. gun on me, but no. >> Ryan Nagel then testifies, and this is. during the first trial. He says that he. was at a restaurant called The Hillside. and he gets a text message from his.

sister and he's there with Ricky and. Heather. He decides that they're going. to pick up Julie after they're done. eating. Ryan is like, "I don't know how. long I was there. Probably for another. 40 minutes because Julie never said she. was in a rush." So, it's just like, "Can. you pick me up on your way home?" They. stay for another 40 minutes before. finally leaving for the Albert. residence, which is about a 7-minute. drive. And as they're pulling onto the. street of Fair View Road, they notice. another dark colored SUV. And Ricky the. driver, he lets them pass. They're at. like an intersection and he's like,

"Okay, you go first.". >> Mhm. >> That car is Karen Reed and John. O'Keeffe. >> And they park right in front of 34 Fair. View. And Ryan, Ricky, and Heather park. behind them. So they Okay. Flag Pole is. on the right side, driveway is on the. left side, mailbox is left side, front. door is kind of center. >> They're saying that they're parked kind. of blocking the driveway, maybe towards. the mailbox. This SUV is probably past. the front door, but nowhere near the. flag pole. >> Got it.

>> So, just kind of smack dab in the. middle. Ryan testifies that he never. sees anyone get out of the SUV while. he's there. Now, side note, there are. random inconsistencies between Julie and. Ryan Nagel's testimonies. I don't know. if they're of importance, but just to. put it out there, Julie is firm that. when she walked out the front door and. walked down the walkway to see her. brother, he's saying she came out the. side door. She's like, "No, I came out. the front door.". >> I would say the side door next to the. garage. Um, I went out through the front. door. >> She claims he rolled down the window to. talk to her. He's like, "No, I opened. the passenger seat door.".

>> Um, he rolled down his window. >> I opened my passenger door. That was it. >> Because it's a truck. So, in order for. her to get into the back seat, I have to. open the passenger front door. It's like. one of those doors that you got to open. both. You know those trucks? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. No, but the. biggest problem in their testimonies is. Julie states that the dark colored SUV. is not there when she goes out to talk. to her brother. Ryan Nagel says that. dark colored SUV got there before we got. there and we passed it on our way out.

>> Well, it was like the the SUV wasn't. there when my brother was there. It was. like before like when I was inside, I. noticed it. >> It's very confusing now. She's saying. like it was there before she went. outside. Prosecutor Lai confirms with. her. And so at the time that you were. talking to your brother in the pickup. truck, was the SUV still there? >> I don't believe so. No. >> Meanwhile, Ryan Nagel is testifying. He. notices the SUV the whole time. He. noticed the brake lights were on. Nothing was wrong with the tail light. He didn't see anybody get out of the. SUV. It was kind of inching forward. It.

wasn't driving weirdly. It just looked. like it was inching forward and forward. And that's it. Eventually, they leave. because Julie's not coming. And they. drive past the SUV. and Ricky, Heather, and Ryan Nagel testified that the dome. light, like the inside light of the car, is on and they only see a woman on the. driver's seat with her hands on the ten. and two on the steering wheel. >> No man. >> No, man. >> What? So, are you saying that that's the. moment they feel like John O'Keefe.

already left the car? The defense tries. to infer that John O'Keefe probably. already went inside and these three were. just not really focusing on the SUV. >> You know, they mentioned multiple times. it's not like they were they didn't. really care about who was in the SUV. >> They're on their phones. They're talking. to each other. They're talking to Julie. At any point, John O'Keefe could have. gone inside and they didn't see it. The. prosecution is arguing, well, the dome. light, the inside light automatically. turns on. >> when the car door opens. So, they're.

saying John just opened the car door and. Karen's about to like do a three-point. turn and hit him. >> because the tail light is fine. There's. no man on the lawn. >> Yes. >> Where's John? >> So, it's all happening at the same time. >> So, the prosecution is saying as they're. passing, they're passing the driver's. side. So, Karen's blocking their view. >> They can't see that Jon just got out. The defense is kind of inferring, what. kind of crazy coincidence is that? It. would make more sense that John O'Keeffe. is inside the house and Karen is just. waiting for him and she's getting.

agitated because also the prosecution. theory is that they were fighting. >> and then she ran him over. But all three. of them testified there was no. screaming. There was no yelling they. heard. If he's leaving as they're. fighting, I would imagine that she's. screaming. So based on the fact that. they don't see a broken tail light, they. don't see anybody on the front lawn and. they don't see Jon inside the car. It's. either he is right outside the car or he. is inside the house. Those are really. the only two options. But the biggest.

question that never gets answered is. Julie Nagel wanted to go home at 12:15. a.m. She has been there since 6:00 p.m. for over 6 hours now. She's ready to go. home. Her brother's almost here. All of. a sudden, she changes her mind and. decides that she's going to stay two. more hours with Jen McCabe. And it. almost seems like Jen McCabe and Matt. McCabe want them to stay. There's almost. a little bit of convincing of like, "Oh. my gosh, well, it just passed midnight. It's now Brian's birthday. It wasn't. yesterday. It's Brian's birthday now. Why don't you get your brother to come.

in?" Now, this is a crazy risky theory. that nizens have. But some netizens. theorize that all the senior Alberts. needed them here because they're the. best alibi. Otherwise, it's just a bunch. of family members. >> and that's not going to look good. So. the the theory is something happened. >> in the basement, >> but Julie had no idea. >> The theory is that John came around back. into the basement entrance for some. reason. Maybe someone came out through. the back and was like, "Hey, come in.

this way." Um Seet is This is again a. theory, an allegation. We could all just. have vivid imaginations that have really. just no connection to truth or reality. We could be completely delusional. But. some netizens believe that he came. around back to the basement, walked down. the steps, entered the basement where. Brian ATF Brian and Brian Albert and. perhaps even Colin, some people put. Colin there, some people don't. It. really depends who you are and what. theory you go with. They're in the.

basement. A fight breaks out. He passes away. relatively quickly because it's a very. um fatal head wound where he becomes. immediately incapacitated. So, there's. not a lot of noise. There's not a lot of. screaming. Maybe there's some barking. from Chloe. Maybe, maybe not. They're. kind of all drunk. They're on the first. floor. >> Mhm. >> And Jen McCabe, Nicole Albert is like, "Well, why don't you guys stay?" They're. kind of mediating. >> Mhm. >> I don't know why they would say that.

nobody was in the basement, though. Everybody was hanging out in the main. floor. >> Oh, is that what they said? >> Yes. So, that's the part that gets me. However, this girl, Julie Nagel, I don't. see her as a very reliable witness. >> Why is that? >> Just the way that she's testifying on. the stand, it just even the the fact. that she said that Karen's car wasn't. there when she went outside. >> I don't know if she's perhaps was too. drunk that night to remember or recall. details. Well, she also calls Jennifer.

McCabe JJ. Julian Nagel does testify. that when she does finally leave. Fairview Road, it's Matt McCabe driving. Jen McCabe in the front and then Julie. Nagel, Sarah Levenson in the back. And. she says that as they're leaving, she. looks out the window and she's like. furthest away from the Albert house. So, she's right behind the driver's side, which means Jen in the passenger side. and Sarah Levenson next to Julie are. going to be closest to the Albert. residence. She looks through the window. and she sees what she calls a quote. black blob on the lawn near the flag.

pole. And she says, "Did you guys see. that? That's crazy. >> And the prosecutors are asking her, no, the defense is also asking her, "Can you. say how big the blob was?". >> Um, I'd probably say five or six feet, like long, >> she says in the car something along the. lines of, "Did you guys see that? I. think I see something." She says, "I did. say out loud. I was like, I think I. might have seen something. I'm not kind. of sure what it was, but I was also. intoxicated drinking, so I didn't really.

know what I saw, but Sarah was like, what, Julie?" And I was like, "I don't. know what it was." And then that's kind. of really it. Matt McCabe denies this. conversation ever happened. He says if. it happened, he didn't hear it at all. because that calls into question, well, first of all, why don't they do anything. about it? You don't think it's weird. that your friend pulls up and is parking. near that area and they never come in. They don't text you back. They don't. pick up your phone calls afterwards and. then now someone sees a black blob. that's huge or sees something. I feel. like I would have just stopped. But.

let's say you don't stop that night. Jen. McCabe the next morning she gets a phone. call. You didn't think that she would. put two and two together of like, "Wait. a minute. I did see their car outside. Now Karen saying that John never came. home." And then oh my god, Julie Nagel. last night was like, "I saw something on. the lawn.". >> But no, she's like, "We got to go search. John's house again. It's weird.". >> What time did all of them leave? >> They said they left around like 1:30, 1:45. >> Huh. >> And Julian Nagel, they drive past this. black blob. She goes home the next day.

She says she puts two and two together. when she realizes John O'Keefe was found. in the lawn. She's like, "Oh my gosh.". Now, what does she do with this. information? Nothing. She never talks. about this black blob like ever again. So, a lot of people think that she's. making it up for the sole purpose of. placing John there. >> When did she release that information? >> It's October 2022. And then the trial is. when she starts talking about how the. blob was 6 feet tall. Like, it's a very. large black blob. Six feet long.

>> Yeah, six feet long. >> Okay. >> The defense even questions it that. publicly everyone by that point was. like, "How can nobody see? How did. nobody see?" Leaving the house. And then. suddenly Julia is like, "Wait, you guys, I saw.". >> Yeah. And it's weird that none of them. like Jen McKay or Matt McKay or anybody. said that. Oh yeah, I didn't see. But. Julie said she saw this. >> Mhm. So Sarah, she'll testify later that. they already had driven past the flag. pole by the time she looked. So, I guess. she's trying to explain like her.

reaction time was too slow. So, Julia's. like, "I see something over there." And. then Sarah is like, "And they've already. they're now looking at the neighbors. lawn." Jennifer McCabe is like, "I was. turned around literally body twisted. towards the back seat so I could have a. little conversation with them.". >> And we are joking about PB&J sandwiches. >> Oh, you remember PB&J? >> But you don't remember most everything. else. >> That's crazy. >> Yeah. And if you thought that was weird, if you thought that was weird, you're in. for a treat because Jen McCabe later on.

Jen. >> McCabe. >> text Julie Nagel for screenshots of text. messages between Julie Nagel and Ryan. Nagel about what time she texted him to. come pick her up and what time he texted. her that he was here. Why does Jennifer. McCabe need those text messages? >> Correct. And why does she need. screenshots? >> Correct. >> Okay, that's what they're asking. The. defense is asking Julie, >> when when Jennifer McCabe, or as you. call her, JJ asked you for screenshots.

of the text messages that you had with. your brother Ryan, did Jennifer McCabe. tell you that she was investigating this. case? >> No. >> Uh, and you have no memory of providing. those screenshots to any investigator. other than Jennifer McCabe, correct? >> I don't remember. No. Why would she need those? Why would Jen. McCabe need those? >> Now, do we know when did Jen McCabe ask. for that information? >> Yes, that's going to be in part three. because there's so much. I have to group.

Jen McCabe's all of her stuff together. because she's got so much weird stuff. that she does. And I feel like each one. one by one it's so small, but then. collectively it's a mountain. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And then Sarah Levenson, she has known Birthday Brian for the. past 10 years. She's also in that car. She states that she never saw anybody go. near the basement. She never saw anybody. on the front lawn. She was so focused on. getting to the car without slipping that. she didn't even look at the lawn. She. was looking at her feet. Nobody saw. anything on the lawn. That's it. And.

then by the time that Julie says, "Did. you guys see that?" She it was past the. neighbor's house. Now, a few interesting. things come out of Sarah's testimony. She says that at one point Matt McCabe. forgot his coat inside, so he has to. leave the car, go back into the house to. get his coat. Matt McCabe is like, "That. never happened." So, it's weird. I don't. know if that's a huge discrepancy. Oh, and side note, she is asked another. detail and she says at the time they. were the last ones to leave. You. believed that Ryan Higgins and Caitlyn. Albert had left before you, correct? I.

believe so. So, remember Caitlyn Albert? Why did her timeline change? We don't. know. >> Mhm. >> But Sarah's like, I'm pretty sure we. left after her. >> But Kaitlin say she left the lot latest. >> None of this is making. >> It's crazy. It's just like everyone's. just saying random story. It almost. invalidates everyone's story. >> Yeah. >> Is it frustrating to to hear these like. story and you were telling me like even. their first and second trial, their. story is so many different. >> Yeah. Like Ryan Nagel has some slight.

changes in his story. I would I like to. think that he's more of an innocent. witness of maybe it's time, maybe it's. memory, maybe it's just bias that's. creeps in during that time period. Sarah, on the other hand, I have some. questions about her discrepancies. I'm. going to go more deep into this in part. three because we're going to do a whole. deep dive on Khloe as well. But in trial. one, Sarah's like, "Yeah, of course I. met Khloe. I've been bffs with Brian. Albert Jr. for the past 10 years. Of. course I've met Chloe." And then the.

second trial, the defense is like, "You've never met Chloe, right?" And. she's like, >> "No, >> what? >> Have you met Chloe? Have you not met. Chloe?" It's not that hard of a. question. I mean, you would vividly. remember if you met one of your best. friends dogs in the decade that you've. known them. >> I mean, I don't know if that's an. innocent mistake. I was trying to wrap. my head around how it could be innocent. because I try to give the benefit of the. doubt, but it was just very weird. >> It was weird. Now, all of them say that.

Colin Albert left at 12:10 a.m. Brian. Albert Jr. says, "Well, my cousin Colin. arrived at the house at some point. I. don't recall how he knew I was at my. house, but at some point he did call me. and said, "Oh, are you still at your. house?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you. mind if I come?" And I said, "No, of. course. You're welcome to come by." So, he stops by at around 10:45 to 11:00. p.m. But when the Albert parents get. home, Colin gets up and says that he's. getting picked up. He states by the time. Jen and Matt McCabe walk in, he's.

already gone. He doesn't even see them. Julie Nagel is also saying that Colin. left around sometime around 11:30, 11:45. before midnight, which is not matching. what they're saying, but that could be a. drunk discrepancy. I don't know. However, in her testimony, she states. Colin left and was not there when any of. the adults get back. So, it's just. weird. During the first trial, Colin. Albert does testify, and he does state. he was 17, turning 18 at the time of. John's death. He was a senior in high.

school. He was 4 months away from. graduation. and he's 20 now that he's. testifying. He says that Friday night he. went to a guy named Mike's house, his. buddy named Mike. Who was there? >> I do not remember who was there. >> What did you do at Mike's house? >> I do not remember. >> How did you get to Mike's house? >> No, I do not remember. >> How much did you drink at Mike's house? >> I do not remember. >> Side note, this is the prosecution. questioning him. He's supposed to be in. friendly territory right now. I mean, he. very well is, and these are his.

responses. But after this mysterious. Mike's house, Colin testifies, >> "It was my cousin Brian's birthday, so I. went over to celebrate for a little bit. with him.". >> Do you know how old your cousin Brian. Albert Jr. was turning uh on that night? >> I do not know. >> Here's something he does know, though, which is he got a ride to 34 Fair View. from Ali McCabe. So he's saying Alli. McCabe, Jen McCabe's daughter, Brian. Albert's cousin from his mom's side. No.

familial blood relation to Colin Albert, but like cousins cousins, right? >> Yeah. >> Alli McCabe drives to mysterious Mike's. house, picks up Colin Albert, and then. they drive to the Albert residence. This. is where it gets weird. So, first of. all, he's asked about his connection. with Ali McCabe, and he just says, "It's. my cousin's cousin, so technically not. my cousin, but we're close, and we do. family events and stuff like that. together. They've known each other since. they were born." Colin testifies Ali. McCabe gives him a ride. He ends up at. the Albert residence at around 10:30,

11:00 p.m., which is not the most. timeefficient thing because he claims, Colin claims he has a midnight curfew. >> Okay? >> So, he's got to go home and again, he's. not driving. He doesn't have a car. So, he's got no plan, just vibes, and his. curfew is coming up in like an hour. He's in the kitchen. He says he's. chugging Bud Light. Okay, chugging is an. exaggeration on my part. He's drinking. Bud Light. He's having many alcoholic. beverages, but he says that he wasn't. intoxicated. Nobody at the party was.

Colin says he's about there for maybe an. hour and decides to go back home at. 12:10 a.m. Colin says Ally McCabe was. going to drive him home. He waits for. her to send him a text that says, "I'm. here." This is what's weird to me. Ally. has no intention of coming inside the. Albert residence. That doesn't make. sense because it's not like Ally and. Collins relationship. If anything, Ally. is also Brian Albert Jr.'s direct. cousin. >> So, she's not even going to pop in for. two seconds to say happy birthday.

>> Yeah. Weird. >> So, then Colin says he gets that text. message right as Brian and Nicole Albert. are walking in the house. He's walking. out to see Ally McCabe. And we are to. assume that Ally McCabe picks Colin. Albert up and misses her own mom by like. 2 seconds. So he rushes into the car. That's all he remembers. He doesn't. remember which side of the driveway Ally. parked the car, whether there was. someone else in the car or not, whether. there was anybody else in the car after. she dropped him off, what side of the. car he got into. He doesn't remember.

anything at all. >> I do not remember that. I do not. remember. I do not remember that. I do. not remember that either. >> I get it. Sometimes these memories mean. nothing because like let's say 2 years. down the road I say, "Hey, what did you. do 2 years ago on this random cousin's. birthday?" You're not going to remember. But if the next day something very. eventful happens, you're going to. hindsight and memorize everything. >> So if it's your cousin's birthday and. the next day a traumatic incident. happens, you're going to replay all the.

events of yesterday and it's going to be. singed into your memory forever. Colin. says he gets dropped off, walks into the. bedroom, tells his parents that he loves. them, good night. That's kind of what. he's expected to do at around 12:30 now, 12:15ish. And then he goes to his room, and he falls asleep. That's it. While he. was at 34 Fairview, he didn't witness. anything strange, abnormal, nothing. I. mean, he really only saw everyone. hanging out. That was it. He didn't run. into anybody else. Nothing of importance.

comes out of this. >> But why did everyone forgot to mention. your name then? Exactly. That is how. annoying he is during the direct. examination. It's time for his cross. where he forgets just about everything. minus his name. When he is asked about. how he prepared for the trial with. anyone, he says nobody. Then he later is. like, "Oh yeah, with the prosecutor.". And he's asked, "So why did you say with. nobody?". >> Uh remember my first question, very. first question this morning. I said, "Have you spoken to anybody in order to. prepare for your testimony?" And you.

said no. >> Yeah. >> So that's not true. >> Okay. Yes. Sounded okay. It's yes or no. >> Yes. >> Okay. >> I mean, it's to be expected that you. prep. Why did you say no? He's like, "Well, I don't even remember what we. talked about in that session, even. though it was 1 month prior to the. testimony. He doesn't remember what. questions he practiced with Ali. He. doesn't remember the questions he gave. Ali. Nothing." And there is this. unhinged moment where defense attorney. Jackson is like, >> "Obviously, you've been thinking about. this case quite a bit, haven't you?". >> Yeah. >> Over the last 2 and 1/2 years.

>> No. How long have you been thinking. about this? >> Since I guess since people started. writing about me on the internet. >> How about since you were at a house. where an individual ended up dead on the. lawn the next morning. Did that prompt. you to start thinking about this? >> No. >> Not so much. Huh? >> Nope. >> You watched any coverage on this case. online? Nope. No social media? No. I. don't have social media. Lie. Okay. Literally a lie. He's on Snapchat. No. news coverage. Nope. So, literally. according to you, you know zero about.

the media coverage concerning this case, Commonwealth versus Karen Reed. Correct. Did he not just say that he only started. caring about this case once people. online started talking about him? The. defense continues to ask him very simple. questions such as, "Did you talk to Ally. before her testimony?" No. When was the. last time you talked to Ally before she. testified? I don't remember. Give me an idea. She's. one of your best friends. A week ago, a. day ago, a month ago? I don't remember. Could it have been a year ago? I do not.

remember. Could it have been five years. ago? No. Okay. So, it was more recently. than five years ago that you spoke to. Ali McCabe. I don't remember. So, you. have no independent recollection as you. sit here the last time you talked to one. of your best friends and your cousin. about any subject? No, I don't remember. Were you ever told in preparation for. your testimony, if you start to get. stumped or nervous, just say, "I don't. remember.". >> Nope. >> Nobody ever told you that? >> Mm-m. No.

>> No. Sorry. >> So, nobody ever informed you that you. might get nervous on the witness stand. There might be tough questions. Easiest. way to get out of them is just say, "Yeah, I don't recall." No. So, you just. don't recall because your memory is that. bad. Your testimony is You were not. instructed to say, "I don't remember.". You literally just don't remember. Correct. >> It's an issue with your memory, not an. instruction that you received. >> Correct. >> Right. But you do remember 2 and 1/2. years ago, you left 34 Fair View at 1210.

a.m. Correct. Down to the minute. >> Correct. Got it. I need someone to check. this one for a brain tumor for early. onset dementia because the amount of I. don't remember that he utters in his. testimony, it got so bad that the. defense straight up asks him, "Do you. remember anything about this case?". >> No. >> And there is something he remembers like. how he slipped on the driveway and.

landed straight on his knuckles. I was. um at a party my house party my senior. year and it was I remember it being an. icy out and I was it was like a kind of. like a steep hill of a driveway and I. was walking up the driveway and I. slipped down the driveway and I tried to. catch myself but I had something in my. left hand so I tried to brace myself. with my right hand and I ended up. sliding a little bit down the driveway. >> Oh that's right. >> That's right. >> He remembers that very well. Alli McCabe. also testifies the same day and she. testifies the night before that she ever. drops Colin off at 34 Fair View and. picks him up. She's hanging out with.

friends from school and then she just. starts driving around. At one point she. sees a dog on the side of the road and. they knew that a snowstorm was coming. So they pick up the dog, brought it to. the police station and then drove the. dog back to the owner's house once they. found out who the owner of the dog was. Now this is a huge point of contention. Alli describes the small dog as being a. small white dog. Not sure what type. This is contentious in the fact that. people online have been saying, "How can. you spot a tiny dog in a blizzard but. you don't spot a fullg grown adult on. your front lawn?" To be fair, I will. argue that there was no snow.

accumulating on the ground. However, it. likely was pretty dark. And if you can. spot a small dog, feel like you could. probably spot a person. It's weird. She. states that she gets a text message from. Colin to pick her up and drive him to 34. Fair View. Within an hour, she gets. another text message from Colin asking. her to pick him up from 34 Fair View and. drop him off at his house. She's a free. Uber driver at this point, but she goes. to pick him up. She states he gets.

inside the car and right after dropping. him off at his house, back to his house. >> This is 12:10 now. It's probably like. 12:15. She goes straight home. The. defense attorney is asking, "Do you know. about what time it was that you got. home?". >> Not exactly. I would estimate a little. bit before 12:30, around that time. >> She says that her parents were not home. by the time that she gets back. And so. after your return home, when you went to. bed or you went to to sleep, were your. parents home at that point? >> No. >> About how much time was it between the.

time when you got home around 12:30 or. so and when you went to sleep? >> Not long. I I don't know. >> Ally also doesn't recall what time she. woke up, but both of her parents were. home at that point, which Colin says. that he was dropped off at around 12:10. a.m. Ally is saying she got home at. around 12:30. They live relatively close. together, but it's snowing. She's. driving a little slower. the the Times. are supposed to check out, but they. don't because Ally McCabe has a Life 360. app, and the app on her phone shows that. she does not get home immediately. In.

fact, she does not get home until 1:32. a.m. >> What's a Life 360? >> It's when parents and you can track your. whole family on Life 360. That is an. entire hour discrepancy. >> Yeah. >> Which is fine, I guess, except she's. saying that she drove Colin home and. then immediately went home. So, what time did Colin get home? >> Yeah. Does it not track her location? Like, >> it does. And there are some concerns.

about like it's there's like a circle, a. border. This is like the school zone. This is the home zone. >> Oh, >> so it doesn't track what street you're. on at what time. It's just like at this. time you enter this radius that is known. as the home zone. >> Oh. H. What's interesting though is Colin. Albert and Allison McCabe, they say, "Well, we actually have proof of the. time." Life 360 don't trust it. We have. text message proof of Colin texting.

Ally, "Can you pick me up?" Ally texting. him, "I'm here." And that's around 12, 12:10. >> And she gives these screenshots over to. the investigators. >> And they're entered into evidence. I. mean, this wasn't entered into evidence. for a really long time. And she's asked. by the defense, "Why didn't you turn. this in immediately?" And she says, >> "No, it wouldn't have been relevant at. that time, I believe, cuz Colin was not. at the house and wasn't introduced as. being there until later.".

>> Okay. Wow. >> Then she says, "It's also not relevant. because Colin wasn't there when John was. there. Does that mean when John was in. the car at 12:30 a.m. or is that when. John was in the house?". >> Right. A lot of netizens have pointed. out that right after this line of. questioning where she has these two. little slip ups where people thought, "Ooh, that's not good." She immediately. starts um she is asked about how she's. been harassed. There's a whole side.

story of witness tampering and. harassment of witnesses, mainly the. Mcalberts, of people believing that. they're guilty and harassing them in. person, calling them cop killers. and. she does start crying about it and she. talks about how people have been calling. her school. Half the netizens think that. this is a very genuine response of a. young girl who probably didn't want to. be involved in any of this and it seems. like she's roped into it through her mom. Jen McCabe. If there's anything to even.

be roped into, these are all theories. These are all conspiracies. The other. half of netizens think that she is. crying not because of the harassment but. because this comes right after the line. of questioning where she slips up twice. >> Now does she explain why she her app. showing that she got hung at 1:30? >> She's like well that's not accurate. >> Okay. >> Eventually Colin hands over the thread. of text messages between Ally and Colin. and that shows Ally texting him that.

she's here to pick him up. He's. responding coming. Okay. So, the date at. the top, it says January 28th, 2022, 11:54 p.m. The date looks a little. weird. It's January 28, 2022, at 11:54 p.m. A lot of iPhone users are. like, "What's the second comma doing. there?" We don't know what that second. comma is. That's a weird second comma. There's a text from Colin to Ally that. reads, "You can come get me now if.

easier." She responds, "Okay, I'm. driving people home now. Word, get me. after." KK. Then at 12:10 a.m., Ally. arrives outside the Albert residence. allegedly and text here. Colin responds, "Okay." Which is reasonable evidence. that she did indeed pick him up at the. time that they're saying, except what's. submitted into evidence is just a. screenshot. These are not the original. text messages. There's no metadata. These are screenshots. Anybody over the. age of like 6 years old could probably.

forge a text message in this day and. age. >> Yeah. >> First of all, it's not that hard to. change the date on your phone and text. yourself all sorts of nonsense to make. it look like something happened at a. given date when it really did not happen. at that given date. The defense even. points to this in their line of. questioning because they say, "Well, that's weird because you have these text. messages between you two from January. 28th, 2022. >> and January 29th, and then you guys. don't text until February 20th, 2022.".

So, the theory amongst a lot of netizens. is that they went deleted all their. messages from January 29th to February. 20th. So, today is February 20th, 2022. They're like, "We got to forge some. messages." Allegedly, this is the. conspiracy. We have to forge some. messages, but we've been texting for a. month. We got to delete all these. messages. Then we have to go enter the. time manually, change the time on our. phone and start texting as if it's. January 28th, January 29th of 2022. And. then once we do that, we change the date.

back to the original date, February. 20th, 2022. And then we can start. texting like normal again. But if you. keep the date, if you change the date. and you already have text messages from. that date, it could not work. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, they don't text for nearly a month. after the incident, not a single text. People believe that they were texting. It doesn't make sense. They're both. arguing that, well, we kind of switch. between platforms, so we just moved over. to Snapchat. And the defense is like, oh, Snapchat, the place that. automatically deletes messages. >> Wow. >> Colin is like, well, I I don't know if.

my settings are like that. And they're. like, do you have your phone? Are your. settings like that? He's like, "I I. don't remember.". Others say it doesn't even look like. they went through the effort of changing. the date. It looks like they. photoshopped the date. It just looks. bizarre. Because in another situation, when you are texting someone at 11:58. p.m., it's going to have that date at. the very top. It's going to say January. 28th at 11:58 p.m. And then the minute. that 12:00 hits, 12:01, you send a new. message, there's going to be a new date.

header. >> Yeah, >> there's none. >> Is that really what happens immediately? the day the next day that's what. everyone says. >> on Reddit and I was like I should try. this and I suddenly morphed into a. 70year-old and I was like I don't know. how to manually set the date that seems. crazy. Maybe I will tonight. >> Wow. >> Some people also think that this is not. even it's misrepresenting the truth. Some people think that Alli McCabe.

picked up Colin Albert from his buddy. Mike's house at 1210 and then together. they went to the Albert residence. That. would make sense because his birthday is. past 12. >> Both of them are cousins. And previously. the text message before January 28th at. 11:50 something p.m. The one right above. it said something along the lines of. Colin texting Ali McCabe. Mikey is. making me do shotguns now. Haha.

And that was early in the morning. And. it seemed like it was just a completely. different day, but that could have been. the original date and they just didn't. delete that much. So people think that. they went over to the Albert residence. at 1210. >> and then went home at 1:30. >> Yes. also like if the app live 360 or. whatever, isn't that a very important. app for location for for tracking? I. would say that the witnesses in this.

case do not believe in the concept of. technology. Often times it seems like. technology is a very erroneous method of. data. Any of them confronted with. anything. >> digitally that they've done? >> Yeah. I don't know. It was a butt. though. I don't know. Well, I I didn't. pick it up, so AT&T must have it wrong. That's the energy. >> Yeah. I wonder what Life 360's main. mission is as an app. And if they fail.

at the fundamental, like the most basic. feature of yours, how do you explain? >> If you guys have Life 360, how accurate are the backtracking of. locations? I'm so curious about that. But also, another interesting thing is. there is an invisible car. There's so. many threads of mysteries. There's the. thread of mystery of what time did Colin. get there? What time did he leave? There's also a question that nizens have. of was Allison McCabe there for a long. time. Did she go inside? And everyone is. just omitting her name like they omitted.

Collins. >> Mhm. >> But now the story is okay well she. picked him up so she definitely couldn't. have been inside the house for a long. time. Are they all doing this to protect. children in the family? That's been a. big question. But there is this. invisible Jeep theory. Birthday Brian is. asked, "Was there anything in between. Ryan Nagel's friend's truck and Karen's. dark SUV that you saw outside?" He says, "Not to my knowledge, I didn't see. anything." No. Only the older people.

seem to be able to see a Jeep with a. giant snowplow attached to the front. parked right in front of the mailbox. Ryan Nagel and his friends state that. they parked perpendicular to the. driveway right behind the mailbox. >> and they can see Karen's SUV in front of. them. >> They don't see a Jeep with a giant. snowplow attached to it. >> parked right in front of the mailbox. Only the adults see it. Brian Albert, Brian Higgins, Nicole Albert, Jen.

McCabe, and Matt McCabe. >> Brian Higgins Jeep was in the driveway. There was a Jeep in front of the mailbox. >> and I took a left into the driveway and. there was a Jeep there. >> I believe it was a Jeep. All the young. people do not see a Jeep. >> Whose Jeep would that be? That's so. random. >> Brian Higgins Jeep. >> Oh, >> nobody sees the Jeep. >> What? Julie Nagel walks outside to talk. to her brother in the pickup truck that. supposedly, according to these older. Albert McAlberts, right behind the Jeep,

she doesn't see a Jeep, but she also. doesn't see Karen's car. So, I don't. know. Are they misremembering. collectively about a Jeep? Or is it an. intentional lie about the Jeep? And if. it is, why are they lying about the. Jeep? This Jeep also has a giant snow. plow in front of it. It's like an. attachment and it just makes it longer. and it's a pretty It looks like a giant. shovel and you can lift it up. It's got. lights on it. Some people think that. John O'Keefe was actually hit by the. snowplow on the Jeep and not Karen's.

car. I don't know how the physics of. that would work. But there are lots of. questions of is Brian Higgins the. killer? That's what a lot of people. think. However, the only thing that. doesn't make sense with that theory, if. you just don't even count in like. forensic evidence, is the fact that the. Mc Alberts are way too involved. And if. it was ATF Brian, someone that is not. part of the family, they would throw him. under the bus so quickly. People are.

commenting, "I don't think the Mc. Alberts would be going through all these. hoops just for Brian Higgins." Colin was. involved some way. Some people think. Allison McCabe was there for a lot. longer. She was inside the house is what. some people are assuming. I don't know. I I think Colin is very suspicious. Feel. very sympathetic towards Allison McCabe. in the sense of if she is not telling. the truth. It seems like a lot of people. believe she's stuck in a position where. if you believe in the conspiracy, she's. forced to say these things. A lot of.

people say there is no way that the Mc. Alberts are going through all of this. for Brian Higgins, which means Colin. must have been involved in some way, shape, or form. One netizen says, "I. think the insistence that it wasn't. Colin has been the main factor in. convincing everyone that it was Colin.". So why would it be Colin? Does it have. anything to do with the fact that there. are allegations, there are conspiracy. theories that this part of the Albert. family, Chris, Julie, and Colin, own DNA.

pizza shop that might be a drug front? Again, a conspiracy. But it is. interesting when you think about the. fact that at the Waterfall Bar. >> Mhm. >> Karen kept asking to go to DNE instead. of 34 Fair View. >> Really? Why? She said she wanted to go. after hours to make a pizza because. sometimes they do that. They kept saying. no. What's also interesting is that. Chris Albert, who was at the waterfall, was the one that invited John O'Keefe.

out that night. >> Yeah. Which is strange. Correct. >> Yes. And you know what's also strange? John O'Keefe before he went on these. like night outings. >> Yeah. He went with his nephew to DNA. pizza that day for lunch. >> That day? >> That day. >> that he died? >> Yes. >> Huh. >> And he told his superiors and he told. members of Canton Police Department that.

he was um he did notice drug activity in. the neighborhood. Who was also his. neighbor? >> Huh? And that is the conspiracy that we. will be covering in part three along. with the accident reconstructionist. I. try to be very wary of conspiracies. I. think that they typically do more harm. than good. I think in this case, in this. situation, a lot of these conspiracies, I can't even judge. I think had this.

been any other case, a lot of the. far-fetched conspiracies, we could. probably try to disprove it. probably. even try to say, "Guys, we should maybe. go outside and get some fresh air.". >> Yeah, but the law enforcement on this. case is like, "I don't know. I don't. know. I don't know.". >> I think every single witness is not. doing themselves a favor. I think. conspiracies are born when people act. and behave so suspiciously. I think this. is also a really strong representation. of how a lot of people feel about law. enforcement officers at this point in.

time. >> Mhm. I mean, there's just no trust. between law enforcement officers and the. communities these days. And I think this. is a direct reflection of that as well. On top of these guys are just weird. >> Mhm. >> What are your thoughts? >> Wo, my brain is fried. What is going on? >> That is where I leave you with part two. We will be back for part three and part. four. And if you can believe it, it gets. worse. With that being said, stay safe. and I will see you in the next one.

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