Parents Force 9yo Daughter To Lie In Sister's Coffin & Mutilate Her Corpse

Bada bing, bada boom. >> The concept of death is odd when you're. a kid. I don't think that there is a. standard age across the board when kids. realize that somebody is dead. Like, at. what age can a child differentiate. between [music] an open casket funeral. and then somebody sleeping in a box in. front of people? 9-year-old Mary, she. knew right away. Her older sister, Ruth, died of brain cancer, and [music] Mary.

is brought with her parents to see. Ruth's body in the casket. That's when. it starts happening. She's watching as. her parents take Ruth's body out of the. casket, place her on the floor outside, and they start cutting. My parents got me up really early. Ruth's body was brought there, laid on. the ground in the tree area by our. childhood church. >> Mary's dad is [music] cutting into. Ruth's body with a knife just again and.

again. And then he tells Mary to hold. it. So now she's holding this knife and. they make 9-year-old Mary cut [music]. into her older sister's beloved body and. they slash her up everywhere. I just. remember having a knife in my hand and. stabbing my sister's body and I'm like, "How did they get me to do that?" Later. I remembered that they made me change. into her panties. I mean, they did that. to make Chopper obviously.

>> until they finally [music] placed Ruth. back into the casket along with Mary. >> and they put me in the coffin with her. My visceral response of being put in the. coffin with her was, "I get to be close. to my sister. I get to touch her hair. >> Mary Knight is tortured through her. entire childhood by her aerospace. engineer father who worked at Boeing, who is also a church leader. They were. millionaires, but Mary remembers being. deprived of food, being passed around by. her dad's friends. Mary remembers that.

her dad would creepily tell her that he. was attracted to her. This is back when. she's a child. And it seemed like her. mom starts getting jealous because she. starts saying things like, "My legs look. better than your legs." Mary is sex. trafficked and abused in hotels, in a. Sunday school classroom, in a church. building, at her childhood home, her. grandparents home, on a swing set, in a. studio of a professional photographer. after regular hours, at a doctor's. office, by a doctor who ran the practice. who is [music] also very close friends. with Mary's parents. Mary says that her.

dad was a prolific CCAM creator, producing videos with his own daughter, Mary, and victimizing other children. And this is all during Mary's childhood, but she doesn't remember any of it until. she turns 37 years old. This is the. story of Mary Knight, who says she was. trafficked by her parents who were. allegedly [music] prolific child. abusers. But there are people who don't. believe Mary. There is an entire. organization called the False Memory.

Syndrome Foundation that don't believe. Mary along with Mary's own parents. They. don't believe Mary. A high-profile. doctor who believes Mary is lying. [music] How old were you wrestling then? >> About 37. >> Yeah. >> And how do you. know it really happened? >> They don't think any of this is real. They don't think any of this is true. They think that she is flatout lying. They say she doesn't have proof. They.

[music] say she doesn't have anyone to. corroborate her claims. They say she was. probably brainwashed during her hypnosis. sessions to [music] believe that she was. abused. >> Basically, I have five minutes [music]. of your story. I hope this won't be offensive, but your. your claims [music]. about what other people said, but I. haven't heard those claims from them. And they say that she's doing this. because she craves attention, that she. must be mistaken. But what motive would Mary have to lie.

about like any of this? And what motive. do these doctors have to disprove Mary? Could it be that they don't want victims. to be believed? But why would they want. that? Is it because some of these people. who are against Mary and want the world. to think that Mary is lying, they also. have been accused by their own children. of abuse? This is the story of Mary. Knight and [music] why some people think. that she's lying. That's why we went to. go see Mary to see if she is. >> years old. After a flurry of news about.

recovered memories of childhood abuse, we started seeing a backlash against. so-called false memories. She recalled. repressed memories of sexual abuse by. her father. At least she said so. >> But we can't admit to something that. didn't happen cuz that's not going to be. good for you. >> I accused of something that's absolutely. not true. >> I think she's just been completely. brainwashed. This recollection [music]. came to her in a flash when she was. hypnotized by a therapist. At which. point it's hard to tell who's.

hypnotizing who at this point. Now we. watch the allegations week by week. [music]. >> How are you? Nice to meet you. >> I love you. >> Good to see you.

>> [music]. >> it over my face. She'd pinch my nose. She did that seven times. Take it to when you were 37 and when. everything's starting to come back.

>> My aunt had told me that she told me I. had witnessed child abuse. I was. journaling sitting on my couch. and all of a sudden I just see this. image. [music]. They say I'm crazy. and it didn't happen. because. do you think that there can ever be a. chance a world in which something. happens to you? You are conscious. You. are not under the influence of any. substance. [music] You are wide awake.

and then something happens either right. in front of your face or something. happens to you and you do not remember. [music] it. Is that possible? And then. one day, 20 years later, you suddenly. remember this moment that you had. Are. repressed memories real? It depends on. who you ask. Pick a side and welcome to. the memory wars. This was a huge thing. back in the '9s. The memory wars was. There is one side of people who believe. that your mind is so powerful that you.

can repress these traumatic memories. deep into the back of your brain and. then they can come back to you when your. brain decides that you are safe enough. to start working through this trauma. [music] Then you have the other side of. people who believe that this is not a. real thing that you cannot just forget a. memory and then suddenly remember a. memory and the stakes for the memory. wars are very high. You're talking about. criminal convictions, multi-million. dollar lawsuits, families being ripped. apart. If all you have is a memory from.

20 years ago, how do you know who is. telling the truth? It could be likely. that if you ask someone from the False. Memory Syndrome Foundation, they would. tell you that they're all lying. This. isn't real. You cannot have repressed. memories. The people who say they do, you know, they're lying and the memories. are false. They're untrue. That's why we. call it false memory syndrome. Now, I. will note this is not like a real. syndrome that's recognized by the DSM5. or anything, but I guess you could throw. syndrome behind anything. They say this. is real. False Memory Syndrome.

Foundation. This is a nonprofit. organization that believes that people. are following the trend of recovering. repressed [music] memories for all sorts. of reasons. Attention, to feel special, to feel traumatized, to feel victimized. They're accusing their incredible. parents who have raised them of being. abusers. Church leaders are losing their. positions in their community because. someone recovered a memory 20 years. later of abuse. And if it's not stopped, the False Memory Syndrome Foundation.

says the world is going to be ripped at. the seams because this is pretty much I. mean an epidemic. [music]. >> She recalled repressed memories of. sexual abuse by her father. At least she. said so. >> I've been accused of something that's. absolutely not true. I think she's just. been completely brainwashed. >> This debate on whether or not repressed. memories are real was so big that it was. dubbed the memory [music] wars. Doctors. from both sides wrote paper after paper. to disprove the other party. And in the.

end, nobody comes to a freaking. agreement. But regardless of what the. doctors are arguing, and a lot of people. have experiences like firsthand accounts. of recovering repressed memories, one. netzen writes, "For me, it always starts. with like a feeling. It feels like. something is trying to get my attention, but I don't know what. I just know that. I'm forgetting something important that. could last for weeks and then I'll get. an image. Usually, it's a blip of. something and it lingers very unsettling. for a few days, a few weeks, whatever. And then something happens and then I.

suddenly will remember. And with that. memory, it's not even just like the. memory I remember. The appropriate. feelings that were repressed just hit. you like a brick at once. It probably. varies from person to person, but that. has been my experience. One clinician. states, "It's not what you really think. it is." Like, people try to make. repressed memories seem like something, but honestly, she says, "I've never seen. a patient recover repressed memories. I'm not sure they're considered real.". The clinician writes, "What is real. though is memory disturbance during.

trauma." So, she's just saying, "There's. so much connotation with repressed. memories. We just call it like memory. disturbance. Memories may be missing. They may be incomplete. They may be. warped. And it's not that these memories. are corrected in any way for you to. remember. But the memories you do have. will be associated with other memories. and sensations and experiences that you. already have on file in your brain. Some. of these memories can be surprising. because you may not have thought about. them in a really long time. And the. emotions attached can be surprisingly. intense. So think of your memory like a.

computer. It's not designed to pull. things out of the recycling bin. But it. does take all the junk that's sitting on. your desktop and tags it with things, sensations, emotions, images that are. related and then they file them away. properly. The way that they're. explaining it is like sometimes you will. have this very specific experience. trigger that file to be automatically. opened. Like a file that you didn't even. remember you had. And that is precisely. what happens to Mary. Repressed. memories. Mary says in her book, My Life.

Now, Essays by a Child Sex Trafficking. Survivor, I am [music] sure that my life. is better because my mind allowed me to. place memories of abuse into a. compartment that I couldn't open until. age 37 [music] when I finally felt safe. to do so. So, what exactly does Mary. remember? I was five or 6 years old. We were at. the first house I lived in [music] out.

in the country and I remember men coming. in multiple cars [music] and I remember. seeing my mom on the front porch and she. took money from the men. and then. I was one of the trees that it was close. to my where my swing set was. they tied a rope to the tree and they. tied.

they [music] tied the rope around my. neck. So then. I was sexually abused. I was by one man. and [music] then he would hand me to the. next man and there were five or six men. and. then the [music] the rope was cut and I. was on the ground and they um.

they used the bathroom on me. the men. did. And one of the men got mad at my. dad and said, "You went too far. She's. going to die." And my dad said, "She's mine. I can do what I want." I remember. searching for my mother's eyes cuz I. thought maybe my mother would have. compassion for me, but she didn't. She. looked when she did look at me, it was. like she was looking at an insect. like. I was I was not even as valuable as an.

animal. After that, my mother brought me into. the house and bathed me and it seemed. like she was being kind [music] to me. and then she put me on a bed that had. brand new sheets on it that smelled. good. And then she came in and she fondled me. FMSF and skeptics of recovered repressed.

memories. They say it was like a trend. in the '9s. A lot of people were. recovering repressed memories. A lot of. high-profile books came out at the time. is what they argue. You could just pick. it up at the bookstore and they'll say, "Are you a survivor of incest? Here's a. checklist." And they would include. things like anxiety, depression, eating. disorders, and then that would make you. feel like maybe I was. They state that. these books are the reason that people. start believing that they were abused as. a kid. Skeptics say that a lot of cases. false memory implantation happens by way.

of quote suggesting things to people. Guided imagination, you know, taking. them through imagination exercises when. they can't remember something. Sexualized dream interpretation. Oh, you. have a dream of this? Maybe it goes back. to your childhood. Hypnosis. Giving. people books to read that advance the. theory of repression. putting them in. group therapy when they don't have any. memories and they listen to a lot of. other people talk about childhood abuse, exposing them to other forms of. suggestive psychotherapy. Those are why. people have these repressed memories and.

they say boom, that's all it takes for. this new memory to form for you to. believe that you were abused as a child. I will say the False Memory Syndrome. Foundation aren't particularly the most. convincing people out there. However, one thing that has stuck with a lot of. people, and I'm just saying netzens out. there, on the debate of whether or not. repressed memories are real, is that a. lot of research so far has shown that. emotional and traumatic events are. typically remembered better and not. worse than mundane experiences. So, studies on trauma survivors consistently.

show that traumatic memories, they tend. to be very intrusive, persistent. They're difficult to forget rather than. inaccessible. So they state that in. neuroscience when your body has a spike. in adrenaline and neuropinephrine, it. actually strengthens memory. consolidation through the amygdala, which makes emotional memories more. durable over time. This is human. adaptation because remembering threats. helps us avoid them, but that's just. what research shows. That doesn't mean. that's the only way that our brains. work. In fact, trauma makes brains work.

in very strange and unreasonable ways. Other scholars argue differently, such. as Jennifer. She's a doctor and we'll. get into Jennifer in a second. She. states that children who are abused by. their caregivers are in an impossible. situation. So a lot of people who have. her past memories, it's from their. childhood. And she states a lot of it is. because when you are being abused by. your caregiver as a child, there's no. reason for your brain to keep it in your. mind as a threat because there's nothing. you can do about it. It's not like you.

can avoid the threat any longer. This is. your caregiver that's abusing you. You. don't have a choice. Not that anyone who. is abused has a choice, but like it's. harder to do threat assessments as a. child versus an adult. >> Okay. What does that mean then? >> If I go to the grocery store and I get. whacked, and this is like obviously a. much simplistic analogy that has no um I. don't want anyone to think that I'm. comparing the severity of essay or. anything like that, but if I go to the. grocery store and I get hit with a cart,

I'm going to remember that as an adult. because I don't want to get hit with a. cart again. But as a child, I mean, that's why children are so reckless with. their bodies sometimes because there's. less of a threat assessment that can be. done when you're that young. And so. she's saying if you were abused as a. child, your brain might not remember it. and keep it at the forefront of your. memory because there's no way for you to. avoid that threat next time. Whereas an. adult, you may feel like you could try. to avoid it. >> Again, [clears throat] not saying that. essay is avoidable by any means.

>> That's interesting. >> Your brain might try to think that it. is. These kids are dependent on the ones. that are harming them, which means they. may adapt. This allows the child to fake. security in their parental. relationships, maintain that. relationship that is necessary for. survival. It's almost betrayal. blindness. That's what she calls it. Also, it can be argued by those with. repressed memories that yes, the memory. formation is there. I mean, clearly the. memory is there. It's not like it. disappeared. It's not like you didn't. form the memory. It's not like you threw. it away. It's just stored in a way.

that's difficult for you to recall. Basically, disassociative amnesia. And. this is highly studied and highly. recognized. >> Is this the same thing as the repressed. memory or different? >> There's differences between the two. But. a lot of people actually think when you. really hone in on repressed memories, they think it's like a variation of. disassociative amnesia, >> which there's not a lot of debate on. whether or not disassociative amnesia. exists or not. >> Okay. So people are just saying this. seems like a different.

>> almost like a fragment of that. Elellanar Goldstein is a big member of. the False Memory Syndrome Foundation and. she has her own book out which is not. the best read. I will tell you that I've. I read the book but she writes about how. quote false memories like Mary's are. tearing families apart. >> What's her the book is all about what? False memory. >> Yeah. So she a lie. >> One of the books that she wrote and yeah. I don't know why they write so many. books. I'm talking about the False. Memory Syndrome Foundation, but one of. the books that she wrote is a collection.

of stories of parents who are accused by. their adult children of abuse. They. don't talk to any of the victims. She. doesn't talk to any of the survivors. She doesn't talk to any of the adults. that were kids that are accusing their. parents now. She just talks to the. parents and they all have their own. little chapter in the book. And they. write about how these quote unquote. false memories like Mary's are tearing. families apart. Yes, Ellanar Goldstein. knows Mary and Elellanar Goldstein. believes that Mary is lying. What proof. does Ellanar Goldstein have? Not really.

any. But she writes in her book, "Imagine what it's like to have the. person you have loved, nurtured, idolized, your child suddenly turn. against you and accuse you of the most. horrendous crimes imaginable." That is. what is happening in the US today. And. Mary decides after she uncovers her. repressed memories, Mary is going to. meet with Elellanar Goldstein, a. prominent member of False Memory [music]. Syndrome Foundation. She's also going to. meet with the founder, Pamela Fried, the.

founder of False Memory Syndrome. Foundation. People who have spent. [music] their life saying that people. like Mary are lying. Mary wants to go. and talk to them. Confabulation is a mixture of fact and. fantasy to create a new memory. We do. that every day. We we mix our memories. up with other people's memories. So, we've learned that memory is very very. pliable. And you can get people to. believe anything that you want them to. believe if you use the right techniques.

[ __ ] memories that come back like. that out of the blue. How do you know. for sure that these memories are true? I. would I spoke in Canada at at um Simon. Fraser University dentist and all of a. sudden 20 years later some patient comes. and says I remember 20 years ago you. abused me when I was in the dental chair. but I forgot about it until I went to. therapy. Now I remember. >> I remember my dad saying that he was. sexually attracted to me.

>> I think that's. >> how old were you when he said them. >> You know I don't think it matters how. old someone is. This is wrong. >> You Oh, yeah. You know, some things you. just take as a as a joke. People say. stupid things. >> That's not something I think a father. would usually joke about that he's. sexually attracted to his daughter. >> What did you How old were you? You don't. remember? >> Yeah, I do. I remember. I was about 13. >> In a book written by Elellanar. Goldstein, she writes about what happens. to trigger repressed memories. And she.

puts repressed memories in quotes. She. says, "Typically, a [music] successful, intelligent woman goes to a therapist. with a problem, perhaps about her. marriage, her children, an unexplicable. illness, like an eating disorder. She. emerges from therapy with the belief. that all of her problems are related to. childhood sexual abuse. And after. perhaps first accusing [music] a. babysitter, a cousin, a family friend, or teacher, the parent is accused, not. allowed to present a defense, and. abandoned, [music]. perhaps even sued. There is a growing. belief that sexual abuse of all sorts. engulfs our nation. Celebrities have.

told their stories of incest and [music]. rape and dozens of books have been. written. Talk shows, newspaper and. magazine articles tell the details which. horrify us all. We appear to be a nation. of depraved sex maniacs. Mass hysteria. is being created by the media which. leads us to believe that a large portion. of adults in our society are. perpetrators of heinous crimes and our. children are in constant danger from. almost everyone they may come in contact. with, especially family members. [music]. The consequences of this mass hysteria. are devastating since it is believed. that sex abuse is common. Therapists,

teachers, doctors are all looking for it. everywhere and many are finding it even. when it doesn't exist. Mary says around. that time her mother had passed away. But with, you know, now filming a. documentary, Mary has a documentary, which like I said, I'm going to link all. below. But she said, talking to these. people, I mean, I'm sure it's bringing. up a lot of these unresolved feelings. about her mother being deceased. [music]. And there's a lot of mixed feelings with. the feeling of familial connection to. her mom, which wasn't there with her. dad. But regardless, she's feeling that.

and she's feeling angry. She's feeling. betrayed. She's feeling hurt. and she. says, "As I prepared for the interview. with Ellanar Goldstein and Pamela Fried, it was obvious to me that I had not. gotten over the loss of my mother. So, I. decided to bake cookies for Pamela with. my mother's [music] recipe.". >> And you know, I I told you I made. cookies for you with my mom's recipe. But, um, she she sexually abused me. >> Oh, it was for one of the [laughter]. people I interviewed who thinks my.

memories are false. And yeah, they she didn't like the. cookie and and uh yeah, it was just this. kind of she reminded me of my mother and. I think I reminded her of her daughter. who. >> who you know was abused by her husband. >> and and she doesn't have contact with. her daughter now. And I think we both. kind of thought we could talk the other. one into believing different. I think. she thought that she could talk me into. believing my memories weren't true and.

then that would be really good for her. organization, but that tended to happen. Well, my mom was always jealous of me. Plus, she was very verbose. She would. have say a lot. I thought she'd be. protective of my dad, and I thought if I. had a chance to talk directly to my dad, my dad might go to counseling with me. But if I talked to my mom first, she. [music] wouldn't want that to happen. Um, and I really thought of myself at. that time as probably closer to my dad,

but then when I broke contact with my. parents, it was my mother I missed the. [music] most. It just it just was. horrible for me to think about saying. goodbye permanently to my mother. And. that really surprised me that that just. is your core. Your mother is your core. Can you tell us what you're making. today? >> So, these are um this is homemade roll.

dough from my mother's recipe. And this. is the recipe my mom taught me when I. was little when I started baking when I. was pretty young. My mother was a very. good cook. Let's see. After my mother, 7. years after she died, I started feeling. her presence when I'm in the kitchen. Um, as far as like she's an angel. This was her cookie sheet.

And actually, I I'll put the dinner. rolls on it. Yeah, that's something I. asked for. I was disinherited, but I asked for the cookie sheet and I. got it. >> Did you ask for anything else? >> Well, yeah. I asked for like two place. settings of china and my mother had real. silver. I didn't get any of that. But I. got the things that were not valuable. that I wanted the dolls up [music]. there. And I bake so much that I think.

really this may be my most sentimental. possession even though it's not of. value. And she would talk to me about. things like she was jealous of me. She. would um she said she had better legs. than I do. I remember one time I was in. the backseat of the car. we were going. to church and my dad looked back and. said, "Oh, you look pretty, Mary." And. my mom said, "Who looks prettier, her or. me?" I mean, that was just I mean, that's a weird thing to say. You know, >> False Memory Syndrome Foundation.

believes that therapy is the triggering. problem. When a patient a person meets a. therapist who has a steadfast belief. that there is a strong link between past. essay and current individual pathology, they might persuade the patient to. remember past abuse that the foundation. believes did not happen. one very. high-profile psychologist who has. inserted herself into studying so-called. false memory syndrome. She states, "To. understand who we are and why we are the. way we are, many therapists encourage us. to go back to our childhood and find out.

what happened to us there. If we are in. pain, we are told there must be a cause. If we cannot locate the cause, we might. not have looked deep enough. If we have. looked deep enough and we have found. something, but we don't believe it, we. might be in denial." and on goes the. search to find the truth of our lives in. the memories we have and the memories we. have lost. Some people have stated that they. believe repressed memories being. uncovered in therapy is quote, "That's. how you turn a $2,000 eating disorder. patient into a $200,000.

eating disorder patient." So, a lot of. the doctors who don't believe in the. repressed memories being true, they. think it's a way for therapists and. clinicians to get more money out of. patients because, oh, you're just. depressed and anxious. Well, maybe I. could solve it in three sessions, but. now if I tell you that your entire life. is a lie, then you might need a few. years, which is a very dangerous stigma. to place on therapists who already have. such a strong stigma that they're. working against. But these doctors.

believe that many psychologists are. trying to make more money by convincing. their patients that they are deeply, deeply traumatized, and they need to. uncover, unpack, and process all of that. trauma. But of course, regardless of. what someone believes, there are a few. strange things such as the False Memory. Syndrome Foundation is a nonprofit more. or less raising awareness and I want to. say lobbying or rallying against quote. false memory syndrome, which again is. not a recognized syndrome, but they will. sometimes pay psychiatrists $110,000. to write a paper to debunk repressed.

memories. And you're telling me there's. no bias there? Yeah. >> How do we know that they paid? because. it's a nonprofit, so a lot of their. stuff is public information. >> They will pay like a Harvard. psychiatrist who has a very strong name. in the field. And then when you read. paper done by Harvard psychiatrist, you're thinking, okay, maybe this is. legitimate. Turns out it's funded by the. False Memory Syndrome Foundation. >> It even shows how much they paid him. >> Wow. >> And everyone will take this paper at.

face value without realizing that they. got paid a fat fee for it. I mean I I. think there is no doubt that hypnosis. can create a state of suggestability. I. don't think anyone is arguing that. I. also do think that the power of. suggestion and I do think memory is a. wishy-washy thing in the sense of I. think no one has an airtight memory. I. think you could remember someone wearing. a red shirt but it was a blue shirt. But. overall most people and most. psychiatrists agree that typically the. gist of what happened you do have a.

strong grasp on that. especially for. traumatic events, especially for. anything in particular that is of. importance. I'm not doubting that the. power of suggestion can be huge on. humans. I tend to agree with this one. nizen who sums it up very well. And they. write, "Here's what my therapist told me. about quote unquote false memories. Memories that are completely made up and. have no basis in reality. They can. exist. They can, but must be repeatedly. and continuously reinforced in order to. be maintained. And false memories cannot.

give you trauma. You would not have. trauma responses without the trauma. For. example, if someone tells you over and. over and over again that you were in a. really bad car accident, but you just. don't remember it. Your brain can. convince you that you can remember such. a thing, and you could probably even. visualize it. But it wouldn't make you. scared of driving. It wouldn't give you. flashbacks of an accident that never. happened. And once that person stops the. reinforcement of that memory and false. beliefs associated, it usually fades and. eventually completely goes away. M. >> also I just don't see why someone would.

subject themselves to something like. having these repressed memories. One. netizen writes, "It feels horrible. I. had signs of CSA. Like I would pee. myself a lot at school growing up. Um. but I didn't remember any of that. The. the net says, you know, one day they. urinated on themselves at work as an. adult and they just started crying in a. way that was irrational. an adult who. urinates on themselves at work. Yes, you. might start crying cuz it's. embarrassing, but it was almost like a. mental breakdown of a crying. And they.

state that I even hugged my boss who. happens to be a raging [ __ ] So, I. would never hug them. Like, that's how. caught off guard I was. I was terrified. Every time I have one of these repressed. memories, I feel like the world is. spinning. I get this weird feeling. It's. familiar. I mean, I guess I used to feel. that after stuff would happen and my. brain would block out the memories. I'm. still in shock and I don't want to. believe what happened. Repressed. memories are weird. In fact, it's not. like people don't doubt themselves. Again, the False Memory Syndrome. Foundation makes it seem like you have. this vague memory that comes up in a.

hypnosis session and then you make it. your life's mission and you're like, "Ah, this is my new life. This is my new. whole personality." But most people who. have repressed memories come back up, they spend years believing it's not. true. They spend years doubting it. They. spent years trying to find reasons why. it's not true to confirm that this is a. false memory, but it's not confirmed. Nobody wants to be traumatized. Like, nobody wants these things to have. happened. And often times, therapists. won't even believe you. [music].

>> Hi. >> Hi, Mary. One thing was saying like a. young child who's under age 2 or under. age three um will never remember any. abuse and. if they are abused won't be affected by. it. Is that what you think? >> A child under two. really doesn't have memories of anything. that happened. Anything that doesn't that isn't painful. the child it wouldn't it wouldn't hurt.

the child. I mean, it may be morally. wrong to touch a child who's under two. It may be obnoxious. It may be that's a. terrible thing to do. And society says. no. But if you think about it, it doesn't it doesn't damage the child. It's it's wrong, but the child is not. damaged by it unless it's physically. hurt. >> Physically injured or hurt. injured or.

hurt the child cries. >> If the child cries then would that. affect the child later? >> So far as we know uh children who have. been who been physically abused anyway. abused they don't remember that and it. doesn't seem to have any later effect on. them. why sons wanting to find. babysitters for their kids because their. kids oldest is two. And so even if their. kids are beat up a little bit at the. babysitter, it's not going to affect.

them. Um and unless there's an injury. >> And moreover, we know that most. abuse of children under two, most real. sexual abuse that occurs has to do with. touching. Usually not penetration. It's usually. not very violent. It's not violent at. all. It's usually more curiosity, exploration.

You think a reason someone would fondle. a one-year-old is curiosity? >> I think that's usually what people. think. So someone who would want to touch a. one-year-old's vagina does that for. curiosity. >> That would be one motivation. >> An what would they be curious about? What would an adult be curious about. about [music] a one? I I don't get it. >> That's that's why it's deviant. >> Yeah. But you think it wouldn't hurt.

them. When I was three and four, I used to. love my maternal grandfather. I called. him Daddy Bob. He wore cowboy boots and. I would put little objects in his boots. so when he put them on, there'd be. something in him. And he just thought I. had a really good sense of humor. Um, my. mother and him would go into the. bedroom. My dad would be at work. They. would set me down [music] at the dining.

table and give me chocolate chip cookie. dough and that was my distraction so. that. my mother and her father. could have sex. I remember hearing them. in there. I remember that it happened enough times. that it didn't seem. unusual for it to happen. And then they. brought me in. My daddy Bub had said. that he would never do anything that. would hurt. And of course, for a young.

girl, it hurt. It hurt. And [music] I I. remember how. betrayed I felt by Daddy Bub. But the. other thing I remember about it is that. not only was my mother not protective, she was so jealous of me. And. afterwards, she beat me and she said, "I'm his only little girl. I'm his only. precious little girl." And she kept. saying that to me when she beat me. And. my mom was always like that with her. father. I mean,

>> uh, stroking the vagina of a 2-year-old. child, a an unrelated male, stroking a. child for curiosity, for any other. reason, >> for sexual reasons, and having an orgasm. >> when the child's there would not affect. the child. >> That child. wouldn't remember that. For example, if. the child saw if a 2-year-old child saw. their parents murdered,

they wouldn't remember that. That would be a terrible thing to. observe for a 2-year-old child, but they. wouldn't remember it and therefore. wouldn't be affected by it. One of the kids, the first time she came. in, a cute little redheaded girl, she. she did this. I mean, just [music]. loud as as.

I I didn't know her history at all, but. then I just say to the child like, "Oh, it looks like you're hitting." and and. um she said, "Yeah, she pointed [music] out that the clown. is smiling and she hit the clown because. the clown was smiling." [music]. People who abuse children are sometimes. triggered by a happy child. Um she had had experienced the murder of.

her little sister. Um so she was three. when she started counseling with me. [music]. biological parents put. a blanket over the child's face. and they said they did it to. so the child wouldn't cry at night and. they said well we did it with our other. daughter and she never died one time. when she came in.

she put this elastic over and I of. course I couldn't let her cuz that would. hurt me. But she and and I'm like, what. is she trying to do? And then then she. started when she would come in, she. would want me to lay down. And she'd. say, "Lay down." And I would. And then. she'd say, "Put your head down." So she. wanted me straight down like this. And. then she'd get this blanket. And it's a. weighted blanket. And she would put it.

over my face. She would put her hand. There were times she'd put it over me. like this and then and then she got to. where she'd pinch my nose, which I would. need to stop her then cuz she's not. allowed to hurt me. >> She did that seven times. Uh the law enforcement um. wanted to interview her because she was. obviously uh um uh had witnessed this.

this crime. The only people I've ever. heard her call mommy and daddy are her. current foster parents. And they are. going to be adopting her. >> So, she gets to live with the people she. calls mommy and daddy. >> Yeah. >> During the interviews that Mary has with. Pamela and Elellanar Goldstein, they act. like Mary doesn't have any cooperating. evidence. Like, zero. None. But Mary. does. Mary's cousin actually remembered. abuse 9 years before Mary did. She.

reached out to Mary to tell her that she. had been abused as a kid by her father. Mary remembers I had just become a. mother. I brought my infant son with me. I sat with her on an old faded couch. I. breastfed my son while I listened to her. heartfelt recollections. And when she. finished, so this is the time when Mary. was working as a social worker. >> So she's very good at listening to. people. She's also very good at. identifying gaps in stories cuz you. know, you're interviewing parents to see. if they're fit enough to take care of. their children. And you have to be able. to realize when people are lying or it.

doesn't make sense. And she tells her, her cousin, I believe you. And her. cousin's face falls because clearly she. does not want to hear that. Mary says. she wanted me to say that she was wrong. I mean, no one wants to believe that. their own father essayed them. There was. another cousin. Mary really tried to get. in contact with her, but they drifted. apart. Eventually, she runs into her own. cousin at, of all places, Survivors for. Child Abuse Conference. Mary didn't even.

realize it was her cousin that she had. been searching for, and that cousin. thought that Mary was ignoring her on. purpose in the hallways. Eventually, they exchanged emails, but Mary took. down the wrong email, resulting in them. losing contact for another year until. finally, they met up 2 years later. Mary. decides that she's just going to ask her. cousin. Not really expecting any sort of. answer, she asks, "Did my father ever. say you?". The cousin tells her yes. She says he. wasn't somebody who physically touched. me but almost coaching others somehow. taking pictures as well encouraging.

others to be involved in sexual acts. with me and filming them which is. exactly what Mary she had these memories. of being filmed and that CCM was being. created. She hadn't told her cousin. this. Furthermore, the church that Mary. used to go to, the Church of Christ, she. went back to try and figure out if any. church members were known to be abusers. because she had these recollections of. being abused in like a Bible study room. in that church. And she couldn't really. investigate much because the police. didn't want to help her and it's not. like she can just conduct interviews. with people in hopes that they give her.

a confession that would lead them. straight to prison. However, Jimmy. Hinton, he is the minister of the Church. of Christ in Pennsylvania and also a. very good friend of Mary's. Jimmy's. sister had a very similar experience to. Mary. Jimmy became the minister after. his dad had been the minister of this. church for 40 years. He's adjusting. trying to be a dad, trying to be a. minister. And that is when his adult. sister, Alex, is like, "Jimmy, I need to. talk to you." And she tells him that she. has these repressed memories of their.

father, the minister, abusing her. Alex. is actually interviewed and she's asked, "You know, I understand that you felt. like you had a pretty happy childhood, but in 2011, you started having. flashbacks that remind you of abuse that. occurred. What can you tell me about. that?" Alex says, "I saw this picture of. my dad touching me in an inappropriate. way, but it was one of those things at. first I tried to shrug off the image in. my head like, uh, that didn't really. happen." You know what I mean? Like, maybe it was an accident, maybe I'm not. remembering something correctly, you. know? I just kept trying to brush it.

off. It was just like bits and pieces. I. didn't have a full memory of it, so I. couldn't quite put it together. Then in. 2011, I was 20 years old. My dad had. asked me to help him babysit kids a. couple of times. So, he was still. babysitting after he retired as a. minister, like church kids. >> I took them swimming. And it was just. like small things that the kids would. say. of like, "Can we sleep over at his house. today?" And just like it just gave her a. weird feeling. where the kids say if. they can sleep over at the dad's house.

>> Yeah. >> Huh. >> Not that relatives can't be abusers. Obviously, clearly they can, but it's. like it's like your old minister from. the church. I can't imagine ever. sleeping over at my minister's house. unless there was like a Bible study with. a lot of church leaders involved and. like. >> or like you usually have sleepovers at. the church is what I recall growing up. religious. Not that I'm religious. anymore, but it's just weird. And so she. just has this weird feeling about the. whole thing. So you're saying these kids. has done that before like they've slept. over it. That's why then when they.

brought it up she was like that's weird. and it's giving her more flashbacks. >> Yes. And it's like triggering these. feelings in her and that's when she says. quote I finally put it together that yes. that did happen to me. >> Looking back what kind of impact did the. abuse that you suffered have on your. life? I struggled with anxiety and. depression ever since I could remember. I had horrible insomnia as a kid. I was. afraid to go to bed or sleep in my own. bed. When I was probably 13, 14 is when. I had severe depression. And I just. didn't know why. I would sit at home and.

I would just cry. But I couldn't put. into words why I was feeling what I was. feeling. Looking back now, all of it. makes sense. But since the memories were. repressed, there was nothing coming up. like, "Oh, this is why I'm feeling. depressed." However, the police, unlike. what they do for Mary, which they just. tell Mary, hey, your memories mean. nothing and it's past the statute of. limitations. Goodbye. They actually do. investigate. They primarily investigate. because they argue that he is a former. minister, community leader who is in. charge of babysitting kids. So they just. bring him in for a quick little. questioning. And during the.

interrogation, he confesses like a. confessional. He confesses to essaying. not just his own daughter. And again, these are repressed memories. She didn't. have quote unquote evidence of it. >> He confesses to essaying not just his. own daughter, but more than 20 children. over the span of 40 years. And after he. is arrested, he calls his son Jimmy, the. new minister, to tell him, "I'm really. glad you guys caught me, because my next. victim was going to be your daughter.". >> Jimmy the he.

>> his son. >> His Yeah. His granddaughter. >> Yeah. >> Wow. And this is all from Alex's. repressed memory resurfacing. >> Yes. And they end up finding Cam on his. devices. >> The victims were between the ages of 4. and 7 years old. And now the 69year-old. preacher is going to serve 30 to 60. years in prison. >> Side note, that's another strong. similarity of Alex and Mary's story. Both of their dads are very active. members of the church and from an adult. perspective, nobody thought that they. were creepy. Like you know how some.

people you you say, "Oh, they just give. me a creepy vibe." They never had. reputations like that. They were all. seen as well to do men. Jimmy, the. minister's son of the predator, you. know, the son of the predator, >> he states, "When I go and I do seminars. of abuse, now I say, if you're looking. for the weird guy who's hiding in the. bushes or even the guy that's awkward to. be around, you're looking in the wrong. place." [music]. By definition, a successful PDF file is. somebody that you would least expect. [music]. I wish I could stand here and tell you. that my dad was this and that and he was.

creepy and we knew all along he was a. deadbeat, he was this, he was. physically, verbally abusive because if. he was all of those things, it would be. easier to wrap your mind around how he. was able to do all the things that he. did. [music] But he wasn't any of those. things. >> Wow. >> Jimmy is very religious and he tries to. teach other churches about how to. identify perpetrators. And he says, you. know, you go to a church where someone. is accused and all the adults say, "No, he's such a nice guy though. There's. just I mean he has a wife, he has. children, and I've never seen him be.

creepy. Jimmy says, "Everything you're. saying, you're describing my dad and. look what happened." However, the main. difference between Mary and Alex's cases. are again just the outcome of the case. because Jimmy Hinton believed his little. sister and he went to the police and. they were willing to open an. investigation. The police listened. They found the. evidence. And Jimmy also depressingly. states, "They got really lucky. We got. lucky enough to find current victims. because if it were just his sister, it.

would be past the statute of. limitations." And he says, "Think about. that statement for a minute. We were. lucky enough that he had current victims. [music] who are young enough to fall. within the statute of limitations.". Jimmy also says about his sister, what. most people say about anyone who has. repressed memories. I mean, she just had. no reason to make that up. like there. was absolutely nothing to gain by making. it up. In fact, most people who have. repressed memories, their whole family. life is torn apart. Even their extended. family members don't want to believe. them. They don't talk to them. Like,

you're shunned from the community. People who then date you, they think, "Oh, are you going to make allegations. about about me?" It's hard to make. friends. Like, they're not living a. great life. No one is sitting around. them being like, "Oh, baby, who hurt. you?" [music] They're it's miserable. They're alienated from everyone. Mary. specifically was disinherited by her. family and cut out of a multi-million. dollar will. She lost family members who. didn't believe her. She felt alienated. by a lot of people. I'm not saying.

[music] that the hidden family situation. confirms Mary's memories, but it's very. interesting to note. I was um there was one time I was rented. by the hour. Well, maybe many times, but. one time I remember being rented by the. hour and he was abusing me out in a. field and he got really, really rough. with me. I thought I was about to die. And then I heard a car and then I saw,

you know, that it was my father and I. thought, "Oh, now I'll be okay." But. what in h what happened was that my. father got sexually aroused and so I saw. my father masturbating. >> The reason you decided to go to. hypnotherapy [music] in the beginning is. it because those flashbacks were. bothering you so much? >> No. I was my ex-husband and I had. marriage problems really throughout our. 23-year marriage. I asked him to go to.

counseling and and he did. We were in. counseling and we had [music] told my. parents about her, but they came to. visit us and stay at our house. My. father's sister, my aunt, [music] had. been out of contact with my father for a. few years, and I didn't know why. My. father's sister said she wanted to meet. with my father. [music] So, I was. curious about that meeting. What What. was it? The reason for that visit is.

that my father's sister. wanted to tell them about the memory she. had that she had been sexually abused by. her grandmother, which would have been. my great-g grandandmother. She thought. they would get counseling, but they. didn't. And so then I had trouble. getting them to really even talk about. it. And my dad and I went on a trip up. to his hometown is Sherman, Texas. On. the way out, I asked him what his sister. said and she said, "Well," he said, "Well, she has weird ideas." I said,

"About religion?" Because I knew she. like thought women should be able to. speak at church [music] and she had some. other views on religion. And he said, "No, about our grandmother." She says, "Our grandmother sexually [music] abused. her." And so like, "Wow." And he said. something like, "But I don't think it's. a big deal if you don't remember. things." [music]. I had young children at the time when my. father and I got back. I put my children. to bed so they couldn't hear any of it.

Then I sat down with both my parents and. said, "I want to hear all about what my. [music] aunt told you." And they were. like, "Well, yeah, she's she's crazy. We. won't I said, "Well, what are you going. to do about the situation?" "Oh, nothing. We just won't ever talk to her. again.". And the odd thing about that is that my. aunt and my mother were roommates in. college, like before my parents had met. each other. They were always longtime.

friends. So I decided that I would wait. until after they left and then I would. call [music] my aunt and say, "Would you. be willing to meet with me?" So I did. my aunt and I met up for lunch and she. said that I had witnessed abuse. I knew. it was true and I remember I've never. drank alcohol. I still [music] don't. But I remember when I got in the car. afterwards, it was like, "Oh, I wish I. could just get drunk right now cuz it. was so horrible of a feeling to think.

it's true, but I knew it was true. I. didn't know I had been abused, but I. knew what she was saying about me. witnessing abuse was true." I was. journaling, sitting on my couch. and all of a sudden I just see this. image and it's as though it's on the. wall across from me. It's in it's in. color. I thought was interesting. I can. just see a man's hand and the man is. grabbing a dog gruffly like grabbing a.

dog. And [music] that's the one piece I. had. Then I told my ex-husband and he. said, "Oh, well, we should quit marriage. counseling." Which made no sense, but he. was looking for excuse to quit marriage. counseling. So, he's like, "We shouldn't. have marriage counseling anymore. You. should just go to the counselor alone. and talk to her about your childhood.". So, I did. That's what I started doing. >> These are videos or. >> Oh, these are these are audio, but they. may break any time. These are the actual.

hypnosis tapes. Let me see which I think. I have them identified. >> I don't think a lot of our audience have. even seen these before. Have you seen. these before? >> I mean. >> on TV. >> It says hypnosis Monday 101 1993. >> Mary says she taped the sessions to make. sure that she was not guided into any. sort of conclusion. And um she Mary let. us go through her tapes.

I went to a counseling session. My. ex-husband came with me because we. wanted to make sure the psychologist who. was doing hypnosis didn't ask leading. questions and she didn't. It was at that. next session. that she had me relax. and then she guided me to go back and. see the man's hand and she had me go up. his arm until I saw his face.

>> I think it was my dad. I think it was my. dad. [laughter]. this. Just relax. Let it come. I wasn't like repulsed by her body. I. patted it. I put my fingers on her hair. That was horrible because my aunt told.

me about my grandparents, but he she. didn't tell me about my dad, her. brother. or she wanted to believe he he. hadn't voluntarily done something like. that, but he did. So, I called him and I. called him at his work number [music]. because I thought he was more likely to. be honest with me than my mother, frankly, and that he was more likely to. answer my question. So I called him and. he said I just told him about the.

holding the dog gruffly with uh that I. could see his hand was his hand was the. one holding the dog and it was it was. like grabbing the dog and that I thought. that it was a part of abusing a dog. He. said no. And he said is this going to. lead you to think I sexually abused you? And I was like shocked by his question. I had not even considered the. possibility that I had been sexually. abused by anyone and especially not my. father. The end of call, he said, "Well,

I guess I won't I guess I won't talk to. him anymore." And like that was what he. expected and wanted. >> Mary says that's the thing about the. memories. She had to not only go through. the process of trying to verify if these. memories are real, but also sort out. which ones were manipulated by her. parents and which ones were not. So, for. example, there is one incident where. Mary is certain that she had witnessed. people being slaughtered. She says this. is when she was 5 years old. She was. told to stand outside the isolated. family property. They lived in the. countryside. They don't have any. neighbors and all you can see is like.

the top of this random hill from the. outside of the house. She sees figures. moving on the hill, mainly shadows. I. mean, clearly it's her dad and a few. other men and there's like this wooden. workt up there. And quote, "Although I. could not clearly see what they were. doing, I could see that they had knives. I was told that they were sacrificing. unborn babies." She says, "I was. instructed to stay still for what seemed. like a very long time, and what I. remember most vividly about this. incident is just how much my feet hurt. I was wearing tan saddle oxfords and. white socks, as young children often do.

You know, I stood on the outer side of. one foot and then on the other foot, I. squeezed my toes together as tight as I. can. I stood on my heels. I tried. anything to stop my feet from burning.". She remembers all of these sensations. vividly. And she does remember seeing on. this hill flesh, like a lot of flesh. It. looked at the time like young babies, fetuses being mutilated, but that's when. she's five. Mary knows that's not what. happened. I mean, this is an example of. how her parents would make her feel. fear. She thinks that they likely.

purchased an animal and as a 5-year-old, you are told what you're seeing, and you. believe it. She believes that there's no. way that they were slaughtering actual. fetuses or babies, but probably some. sort of animal, and showing her what. they're capable of so that she would. stay quiet. M the thing with Mary is. that she's very open to questions about. her memory. She was like her own biggest. skeptic in the beginning. Mary says, "I. thought the best way to truly question. myself was to directly question people. who like my parents say recovered. memories are false. There was an.

unhealed part of me that wanted to. believe that my memories were false so. that I could imagine my parents were. respectable people. But instead, she. says, I am certain that my memories of. childhood essay are true. I did not. remember my abuse until I was 37 years. old. Even as a child, I had no conscious. memory of the atrocities except while. they were occurring. Besides, what. motive does Mary have to lie? Whereas, I. don't know if the same could be said for. the members of the False Memory Syndrome. Foundation. >> We have to help each other and forgive.

and understand and have empathy and not. carry grudges forever and ever, generational, one generation after the. other. Hates, hates, hates. He touched. me. Oh my god. He touched me and. therefore he touched me and he's dead. He's dead. >> So even if there was the incestuous. touch, you think the family. >> I don't know what insensuous touch is. I. mean intercourse if somebody comes into. your bedroom and forces himself on you. That's one thing. If he if he.

>> What if what if what I had an uncle my. sister says used to uh follow her. He'd. hold a newspaper like this and he'd. follow her. Okay, he's dead. Don't ever. speak to him again. He's dead. He made a. terrible mistake. >> So, even fondling, you think? >> Say, "Get out of here, Uncle Irving. Leave me alone and walk away.". >> So, you think the little kid should be. responsible to do that? >> I think at a certain point, if he's. uncomfortable, they should speak up for. themselves and be responsible for. themselves, not carry a grudge from. century to century. >> But if there was sexual touch, do you.

think the family should still stay. together? >> Of course. >> Even if there was. >> Absolutely. Yes. I don't think sexual. touch is the horror of all horrors. I. don't think so. >> I think we make a big to-do about. nothing. >> Do you. regret going to see her or. >> I did it to really question myself about. are my memories true? But I'm so glad I. don't need to do that anymore because I. know my memories are true. I already.

really knew it. But I didn't I let just. let myself question more deeply. >> Dr. Jennifer is a psychology professor. at the University of Oregon. And she. starts recovering these repressed. memories when she is a full-blown adult. of like childhood essay. She's married. She's got two kids. She has a great job, but she just has so much anxiety. She. >> She works in the campus. >> as a psychologist. >> Yeah. She's a psychology professor. >> Oh, she's a professor. >> So she is like she knows the field.

Yeah. >> And she has a loving husband. She has. two kids. Everything in life is going. well. She's got a great job with job. stability, but she just has this like. unexplainable anxiety. And as a. psychology professor, she's like, "Let. me just go to a therapist and talk it. out because maybe it's like I had a. dream that the eggs burned down the. house." Like she's like, "It's probably. nothing." Okay. So, she goes to the. therapist and she starts talking to the. therapist. And she does state, "If I. really had to pinpoint, the only thing. that is giving me a little bit of. anxiety is my parents are coming over.

for Christmas break. So, is my sister, they're going to visit for Christmas.". And I don't know why I have anxiety over. that. Like, maybe it's anxiety because. you need to host. Maybe it's like you. want your kids to be on their best. behavior. And the therapist asks her, "Have you ever been abused by your. parents?" Immediately, she's like, "No, no." conversation moves on. Later that. day, Jennifer suddenly has this. disturbing flashback almost. And over. the course of the next few weeks, she. [music] says, "I remembered that my. father had molested me when I was a.

young child." And then around that time, her sister Gwen calls her and is like, "Hey, I'm not coming to your house for. the Christmas family gathering, and it's. not because of you. Like, I love you, Jennifer, but I'm not coming." Like, you. do know that our family is weird, right? Like, something is seriously wrong with. our family. You know that, right? And. then she drops this weird bomb. You. know, our father was S8 as a kid, right? Jennifer says this was like a weird. moment of just things started connecting. and like she did always think it was.

weird that her dad always wanted to talk. to them about the book Lolita. He would. also get um pin art impression of his. private parts and hang them in the. living room. So like he would like it's. I guess it's artwork of his. >> down there. a pin art of his private. parts and what? >> Suddenly, Jennifer starts seeing these. things as what they are, which is just. really, really strange and. inappropriate, but they don't really. compare to the flashbacks that start. coming in. She states that the earliest. memory that came in was when she was 3. years old. Her father was abusing her in.

the bathroom. It lasts until she's a. teenager, which means that this abuse. lasts over a decade, and she's just now. remembering it. Jennifer confronts her. parents about it, and she says that her. dad's response is so unsettling. You. would expect that they're disoriented, highly confused, that the parents are. outraged, but oddly it felt like he was. almost prepared, almost like he's. expecting it. So instead of working. through this with Jennifer, which is. what I would imagine parents would they. would do if these were truly false. memories like they claim or trying to. figure it out together as a family, they.

retaliate and her parents decide 18. months after her accusation. that they are going to start the False. Memory Syndrome Foundation. Pamela Fried. is Jennifer Fried's mom. Pamela and. Peter start False Memory Syndrome. Foundation. The insane part of all of. this is that Peter, the dad, he actually. admits that Jennifer's childhood was. fine, strange. Okay, he understands that. maybe it wasn't appropriate all the. time. He says, quote, "I'm quite. prepared to say the attitude I thought. was appropriate of being open about.

things of a sexual nature in retrospect. may have been wrong. It's very vague. To. give you more context, he would work at. home in the living room wearing nothing. but a robe, and he would sit with his. legs spread all the way apart. He would. drink a lot at home. He was very. erratic. He would give speeches about. how their family was superior to. everyone. They weren't the type of. family to eat iceberg lettuce. They were. the type of family to eat romaine. lettuce. He would yap about how meat. tastes better when you slaughter the. animal yourself. He believed that. classical music was superior. And I.

mean, you're thinking, "What a cultured. and welltraveled man, right?" No. He. allegedly proclaimed Indian food was. disgusting and smelly. The sad part is. Jennifer didn't even want her dad to. apologize. She just wanted her mom's. support during all of this. and instead. her parents gear up just in case. Jennifer decides to [music] sue. Jennifer writes a letter to her mom. The. content of your letter suggests to me. that you're putting an effort in a legal. defense. I do not have any intention of. attempting to use the legal system to. heal wounds from years ago. Meanwhile, Pamela is already raging a campaign.

against her own daughter through her. foundation. She wrote articles about her. own daughter, who she dubbed Susan, which it was not that hard to find that. [music] it's Jennifer. But regardless, she says Susan was experimenting with. drugs as a teenager, so her brain is. fried. Obviously, she can't retain a. single memory like a banana. And maybe. she's making up all these lies because. her sex life with her husband now sucks. and she's jealous of her mom's. professional success and she's upset. because she doesn't like being a mom and. she nursed her son for far too long. And. that could be psychologically damaging. Also, she has a history of mental health.

disorders. So, that's probably why she. came up with this allegation and not. because, you know, it could be true. Camela and Peter are also just a strange. couple. Not just because I think that. their ideas and fundamental values are. unbburdened by the incorres of wisdom, but because they have their own history. Pam and Peter Fried before they were. husband and wife were step siblings. Pam's mom married Peter's dad when Pam. was 12 and Peter was 14. That's a pretty. young age to become step siblings. And. um they went to the same high school.

They allegedly start dating, become. intimate, and they at 18 they get. married and nine months later they give. birth to Dr. Jennifer Fried. Peter did. open up to Pam about how he was essayed. when he was 7 to 11 years old. And Dr. Jennifer Fried says, "You know, a lot of. things that I remember is my mom had. this weird thing where she just had this. rage in her towards me. My mother also. didn't like to touch me. [music]. Jennifer says just to have some sort of. physical contact with her mom, Jennifer. would massage her feet as a kid." And a.

lot of people believe that this could be. because her mom was jealous of Jennifer. >> Anytime their dad was around, Jennifer. would say, recall that her mom would. grow even more distant and even more. cold. And there would be once that she. was sitting on her bed kissing her high. school boyfriend. So Jennifer Friday is. sitting on her bed kissing her high. school boyfriend. And her dad is just. like watching through the crack of her. open door. She caught her dad once. reading her diary and he claims that she. left it out [music]. because she wanted him her dad to read.

her diary. I've never met a teenage girl. that wanted her parents to know anything. about her personal life. He also says. that he's not bothered by the fact that. he was essayed as a kid. Peter fright. He says it's technically abuse, but. studies have been, you know, done and. many, many people aren't really terribly. bothered by it. He's invited his former molester into. their family home with his wife and his. kids. So, there's [music] that. >> Who is it? >> Who's like a local musician? >> Wow.

>> There are at least some 2,000 families. that have worked with the False Memory. Syndrome Foundation, mainly because they. are parents who have been accused by. their own children of abuse. And it's. pretty clear what the biggest motivator. for these parents are. They cared about. not getting sued. Your daughter Jennifer. has said publicly that about the new. dancing in front of your husband. She. and another little girl. And I think. last time I was here you were saying it. was when she was about nine or so. >> Mhm. >> Do you think your husband has such. feelings toward her? >> Yeah.

>> Why? Why? He's somebody that I've lived with for. ever so many years. I knew him growing. up. Um, I never saw any indication, >> but even the new dancing, I mean, he. it's. he didn't ask to have that. That was something that they decided to. do. He didn't want them to feel. traumatized by coming down too hard on.

them. >> But just to say, you know, go into your. room or I mean, did you talk to her. about it later when you knew that had. happened? I didn't even know about it. for quite a while. >> Oh, she he didn't tell you for a while. after that. >> Well, I was working. >> Darvo is an acronym. It stands for deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender. And in Darvo, what happens is there is. an aggressive denial.

followed with an attack on the. credibility of the person making the. claim. It might take the form of. questioning their mental abilities or. their motivations. saying you're a liar or you have you're. crazy. And then reverse victim and. offender is when the person who's being. held accountable assumes the victim role. and says I'm the victim here. More. recently, we've been researching this. systematically in the laboratory and we. have found that unfortunately Darvo.

seems to work and um it's you could say. it's like a perpetrator strategy and the. ways we've so far found it works is it's. associated with victim self-lame. So if. people get dared they're more likely to. blame themselves and it's also. associated with thirdparty judgments. So. third parties who are exposed to Darvo. responses versus non-darvo responses are. more likely to doubt the victim and. assume the perpetrator must have some.

some uh basis for making the claims. >> Also another thing with Dr. Jennifer. Fried, she says, I mean to come out as. an abuse survivor when I was like a. doctor and being a professor, it's. career suicide. It's career self-exit. Especially at the time that I came out. with my accusations. It's not a time. where people are rallying around. survivors, especially in academia. >> Wow. >> It's not like 2025.

>> Yeah. >> And even 2025, look what's happening in. the Hockey Canada case. Like, no one is. It's crazy. The False Memory Syndrome. Foundation would also help fund and. initiate a series of lawsuits against. well-known therapists whose patients. have recovered memories. They would. initiate lawsuits to take them down for. malpractice. They had like $8 million to. work with. They had a lot of money. One. trauma therapist, the author of the book. The Body Keeps the Score, he says, "These lawsuits had a chilling effect. While not all trauma therapists were.

sued, many of us suddenly felt under. attack." As for Pamela, she's asked, "How do you know you're not helping. abusers?" And so for someone who claims. to be so married to the science, which I. haven't seen strong evidence of quite. yet, but regardless, Pamela says, "We're. good-looking bunch of people, you know, graying hair, well-dressed, healthy, smiling. Just about every person who. has, you know, attended our meetings is. someone you would surely find. interesting and want to count as a. friend." Pamela Fried's right-hand. woman, who has also written books with.

Pamela, Elellanar Goldstein, also. interviewed by Mary for her documentary, Am I Crazy? >> The documentary name is Am I Crazy? >> Yeah. Yes. Am I crazy? And Mary also. spoke with Elellanar Goldstein's. daughter, Dr. Stacy Charlotte, who also. has recovered memories of childhood. abuse. >> Do you remember actually telling your. parents about it? >> Yeah, cuz I didn't know they had. anything to do with it. >> The first memory that came up, I just. remembered babysitters. So, it seems. like almost all the members of this. foundation have a strong motive to say.

that these are false memories. They have. a lot of skin in the game. Elanar tells. Mary during their interview, "We have to. help each other forgive and understand. and have empathy and not carry grudges. forever and ever.". >> We have to help each other and forgive. and understand and have empathy and not. carry grudges forever and ever. Generational, one generation after the. other. Hates, hates, hates. He touched. me. Oh my god, he touched me and. therefore he touched me and he's dead. He's dead.

>> And just with all due respect, these. individuals are insane. Elellanar. Goldstein tells Mary, "I don't think. sexual touch is the horror of horrors. I. think we make a big to-do about. nothing.". She also says that if a child is being. essayed by their uncle, for example, the. child should punch the uncle in the arm. and scream, "Get out of here, Uncle. Irving. Leave me alone.". I feel my frontal lobe lose density the. more that I listen to Elanor Goldstein. speak. The [snorts] foundation has also worked. closely with Ralph Underwager who um.

Ralph has some interesting takes and by. interesting I mean we should probably. lock him up for a very long time. He's. asked a very simple question of is. choosing being a pedophile a responsible. choice? They're saying, "Is choosing. being a pedophile a responsible choice. for the pedophile?". >> I don't even know what that question. means. I think the minute that you ask. that question, you should probably go to. jail. >> The only thing that could be answered so. simply is there is no responsible choice. and a pedophile, I mean, you're choosing.

to be emotionally, ethically, morally. corrupt, and you are choosing to commit. a felony and you should be locked up in. prison. He doesn't say that. But Ralph. Underwagger responds, "Certainly, it is. irresponsible. You know what I have been. struck with is I've come to know more. about and understand about people who. choose pedophilia is that they let. themselves be too much defined by other. people. >> What. >> exactly? Like defined by what? Who? Prosecutors, the DOJ. Like what do you.

mean defined? He continues, usually. there is an essentially negative. definition. Pedophiles spend a lot of. time and energy defending their choice. to be pedophiles. And I don't think a. pedophile needs to do that. I think they. can boldly and courageously affirm what. they choose. They can say what they want. is to find the best way to love. Pedophiles are too defensive. They go. around saying, "You people out here are. saying that I what I choose is bad and. that it's no good. You want to put me in. prison. You're doing all these terrible.

things to me. I just want love. I have. to define my love." What I think is that. pedophiles can make the assertion that. the pursuit of intimacy [music] and love. is what they choose. With boldness, I. think they should come out and say, "I. believe this is in fact part of God's. will.". >> Oh, he's he's a fed. >> I He's not, but I wish he would have. been right. They have the right to make. these statements for themselves as. personal choices. Now, whether or not. they can persuade other people, you. know, that they are right is another. matter. I believe that God's will is.

that we have absolute freedom. no. conditions, no contingencies. The. solution that I'm suggesting is that. pedophiles become much more positive. They should directly attack the concept, the image, the picture of a pedophile as. an evil, wicked, and reprehensible. exploer of children. He also thinks that. women hate pedophiles because women are. jealous that men are having connections. with children instead of [music] them. >> So, is he another member of the the. group or what is. >> um Okay, so he's a doctor. >> He's a doctor but not an MD. So he's not.

like a psychiatrist. He's a doctor in. ministry. So he has like a PhD in. ministry, which there's nothing wrong. with that, but he works at the. foundation and he uses the name doctor. and there is a strong implication that. he is some medically trained individual, but he is not. So he actually spoke a. lot about how repressed memories are not. real. And then he turns around and is. also um a very suspect person who could. potentially be a pedophile. I'm just.

saying. I mean, anyone could be a. pedophile, but like he definitely could. be a pedophile. >> What are those statement that he's. making? >> Yeah. Like these are the people that are. working with the foundation. >> That's like making them look so much. worse. >> I don't even know how they raised like. $8 million. >> Raised $8 million from the donation. >> members. Yeah, >> these people must be very desperate. >> Yeah. Elanor Goldstein writes, "Since. essay of a child is the worst crime we. know of, to be falsely accused of such a. crime is the worst thing that can happen. to a person.".

Okay. [snorts] And the Rottwe and Mango. team, we decided that we were going to. go to Washington to meet with Mary to. figure out if she was telling the truth. Not that we have any sort of authority. in this, not that our opinion would. matter, but just in terms of we were. really captivated by her story. We were. captivated by these debates and the. memory wars. And we definitely tried our. best to be objective. Before we went, we. would have these mock debates where we. would each pick a side, either the side. that believes in repressed memories and. the side that does not. I will say that.

each time that someone was on the side. that does not believe in repressed. memories, I mean, there's a lot of. frustration. I feel like it was hard to. come up with good arguments on why. someone's repressed memories are false. But again, we're not medically trained. We have not studied trauma survivors in. that type of environment. But to us, the. logic just did not logic as well as. believing the victim. And we tried our. best to remain objective when we went to. Washington to meet with Mary. I mean, we. wanted to question everything. And I. will say that when the Rotten Mango team.

got back, I think it makes even less. sense to us than even before we went to. Washington that Mary would ever lie. about something like this, that people. would ever really lie. I mean, again, yes, you could argue that statistically. there must be some people who lie. There. must be some people who lie to get car. insurance claims. They There must be. some people who lie to get in positions. of power. I mean, people lie all the. time. There must be some small statistic. of that. But it just doesn't make sense. that a mass majority of people with.

repressed memories would lie about. [music] it. Mary is a highly. accomplished individual. She currently. works as a child clinician. She helps. children process their emotions. She's. also a Respite foster parent. Foster. parenting is a laborous, emotionally. exhaustive job. And these foster. parents, they get 2 days off a month. without their foster kids. With those. two days off the month, who's going to. watch the foster children? They go to. resppite foster parents like Mary and. Jerry. And Mary is very well aware of.

the process of trauma, dealing with. trauma, how to recover from trauma. The. feeling is like she seems so in tune. with not only her emotions, but the. emotions of everyone around her. And. every single aspect of Mary's life then. and now aligns with what she has been. saying. [music] When Mary and her family. lived in the countryside, she. distinctively remembers that like they. had these kittens in the house, these. baby kittens. And Mary's parents would. force her and her sister Ruth to watch. while they the parents would throw the. kittens at the wall like they were.

baseballs. And Mary says she remembers. the walls shaking when the cats would. hit the wall. And if the kittens weren't. dead by then, Mary says that her parents. would dunk them and grab them by the. neck and dunk them in water, drowning. them. >> They made me and my sister stand there. and watch our kittens being killed. And. they killed our kittens by threw the. kittens at the side of the house, one at. a time, and then they [music] put the. kittens in water. It was like the.

kittens were killed in the various ways. someone could be killed. Mary writes, "Ruth and I were told that if we ever. reported our abuse to anyone, the same. things that happened to our kittens. would happen to us." And this is not a. one-time thing, by the way. Mary says. that at another point, another time, a. cat and her kittens were hanged one at a. time in front of her. But the crazy. thing is Mary has another vivid memory. that she recalled later on where her mom. was telling people that came over, like. house guests, family, friends, that Mary. had killed kittens before. And.

naturally, Mary doesn't want to believe. her, but she does recall this one time. where her parents had brought home new. kittens. She's terrified that they're. going to end up tortured and ultimately. end up dead. So, she decides that she's. going to put them in warm clothes and. hide the kittens away from her parents. She puts them in a little suitcase. She. takes them to like this little. greenhouse in the back of the house, puts them on the top shelf, hiding them. She remembers sneaking away once to. check up on them, and they looked like. they were asleep. She thought they were.

asleep. But they were dead because Mary. is young. She doesn't understand the. concept of oxygen and suffocation. And. in Mary's desperate attempt [music] to. save these kittens from a very torturous. death, she ended up suffocating them. She told the story about me putting. these kittens. I dressed them up. dressing them up in doll clothes and. putting them in this little bitty. suitcase that I [music] had. and how then of course they suffocated. We got a cat when I I was still needing.

some healing from all these tragedies. with kittens. And so. when my husband and I got married, then. [music] I that summer before we got. married, I kept basically interviewing. kittens at a cat shelter. I'd go and I'd. hold a kitten. And she went multiple. times to see if she clicked with any. specific cats. And there's this one cat. named Kenya that she really wanted to. adopt. And she was like, "Okay, I'm. ready." The only thing is she was just. about to get married to Jerry.

>> It was [music] right before our wedding. and we were about to leave on a. honeymoon right after the wedding. [music] and I asked if they could hold. the cat cold Kenya for a week and they. couldn't do that. So we postponed our. honeymoon for Kenya [music] and yeah I. loved Kenya. She was a very she she was. a extremely cuddly cat. In Washington, the Rotten Mingo team went with Mary to. a cat cafe. Oh, she also has this like. really cute cat dress. I'm sure you've.

seen it already if you're watching the. video version, but we took her to a cat. cafe and [music] from the first moment. that everyone is sitting down, this. little cat jumps on top of Mary and. stays put for the entirety of the time. And it's funny because everybody is. sitting there. There's like 20 cats. No. other cats. I mean, cats are coming by. They're saying hello, but none of them. are just sitting on top of anyone else. but Mary. And Mary was laughing and she. said, "You know, this cat looks like. Kenya, too.". >> Yeah. >> Crazy. >> Kenya. I I had I bought doll clothes and.

I dressed her up in them. [laughter] She. didn't especially like it, but she. [music] did it. >> You can even get her to patch sometimes. >> Yeah, that's right. You throw a toy and. she catches it. So Jerry does push-ups. every morning and he gets up before me. and does 50 [music] push-ups. And. >> so the cat, >> even today, >> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. >> You can do 50 push-ups. >> Wow. How old are you? >> 77. >> 77.

[music]. So, the cat would get on his back and. then he would go up with the cat. >> 77. I did not expect that. >> [music]. >> It was actually hard for us to gauge.

Mary's personality outside of her work. because she's so I mean activism is at. the forefront of everything and that's. mainly what she talks about. But it's. like hanging out with your mom or your. grandma depending on I guess your age. and she's a grandmother so I don't think. she's going to be offended by me calling. her that. She insisted that since you. know the RM team were in Bellingham that. we visit Village Bookstore. It's. probably like one of the cutest. bookstores in existence. Mary did book. signings there for her book and the. employees already knew her. >> Is this it?

>> Uhhuh. I don't see it. This I should. have mine in December, too. I wonder if. they Oh, there it is. Local under local. featured local authors. This is a very cute store. >> It is, isn't it? The people in. Bellingham really like it being here. because it's an independent bookstore. One thing that I thought was nice about. owner is they're real involved in the in. what's going on in the city. And during.

the pride parade, a a lot of people were. at the pride parade, but one thing they. did is they closed their store until. 2:00 that day so all their uh employees. could go to the pride parade if they. wanted. And then I did my author event. here. I did an author talk here. >> And I'll show you that space. >> Hi. Oh, come on. Be in this is uh I'm. going to be in a on a podcast. Oh, cool. >> And um remind me of your name.

>> Sai. >> Sai. This is Sai and she's the one who. introduced me for my author talk. >> Yeah, it was a real honor. >> I'm going to go to Atlanta on Wednesday. and his wife is going to interview me. there. >> Very cute. >> Yeah, I think it's a nice nice place. >> We just celebrated 45 years actually. >> No way. >> Yeah. Everyone knows Village Books. Everyone that lives in Bellingham. People travel here to go. Um, a lot of. people, and this is just me fully. bragging on the store, call us the pals.

of Washington. >> So, my wife follows these bookstore Tik. Toks. Book talkers will travel to cities. just to go to different bookstores. >> A couple people do traveling to village. books. >> Really? I wish Stephanie is here. I. think she would. >> she would go crazy here. >> So, I read sections of my book. There. were other people who I had never met. and it was just because of the publicity. that that Village Books did. >> It's funny because I realized later, actually think I realized this week that.

I had seen your YouTube video before. >> at a really pivotal time in my life when. I was starting therapy and kind of. unraveling. >> my own life and [clears throat] which is. why you look so familiar to me because I. realized, oh, I've seen. >> Oh, that's cuz you said like you But. that's how Okay. Okay. Yeah. And so I. felt kind of doubly grateful when I. >> Oh, that's so fun that you'd already. seen me. I got to introduce you. >> Oh, cool. >> It's been a wonderfully busy day. >> Okay, that's great. >> Thank you so much. >> Very nice to meet you. >> Nice to meet you, too.

>> And another element is when you read. some parts of Mary's book, a lot of. people are saying that they thought that. her memories sounded too vague. She. doesn't want to mention specifics. And I. don't think that's a reason to doubt. someone, especially when privacy is a. huge concern. But I will say that one. thing we thought was interesting is like. Mary is very open with anything that has. to do with her, which she highly values. everyone's privacy, her foster children, her friends, her family members. Like.

even if we're in her house and we're. walking by and she'll see something and. she'll be like, "Oh, look at that. bookshelf. Oh, wait. No, please don't. put that in there. Like I don't want. people to see their name.". >> And you'll just have to not put his last. name there. >> Oh, I've got to take these down. I'm. sorry. Oh, we can we can blur them. >> Yeah, I'll just take them down. >> Quick note, that photo on here. definitely 100% need to be blurred. >> Could you take it without that? And then. it's artwork that you can have. >> Yes. Oh, yes. >> Because it's such lovely artwork. This.

is S. You'll have to get his name out, but this was to his hamster. You just. can't take or you'll have to blur out. the names here. Just put her first. initial. This is the little girl I the. child who used [music] to use scissors. or break. these little people. >> Yeah. >> Now makes now made this for me. Wow. >> And wanted me to take it home with me. The child would do [music] like would.

have maybe 10 that would be cut [music]. ac across by the end of the session or. broken into little pieces. And um I had. a child who would do this. and then break them. Yeah. >> Does that usually help a child? >> I think it does. >> It does. >> I think anyone that's been through.

trauma needs to [music] express anger. So yeah, I've had two that did this and. um [music] they'd bring home this in a. little baggie because it was their work. for the day. So I tell parents, don't. say [music] have a good time to your. child because that's like if you're. walking into a therapist office and. someone says have a good time. This is. their work. And now [music]. that's what the child does.

I think it's the child's just [music]. really healed a lot. >> I worked at a children's home and I was. the adoption worker. >> I wanted to ask about that as well. Was. that before your memory came back or. after? >> It was before. >> So, at that point, you haven't realized. the type of trauma and everything that. you gone through, but you still went. down this social worker path and you're. helping kids. Do you think. subconsciously your body knows and you.

want to help others and help yourself. already? >> I was desperately trying to rescue. children and I thought I could and and I. did place children who had been uh. severely abused. I also did infant. adoption. So I' I've done some of that. So yeah, I was trying to rescue kids. I. absolutely I would get really emotional. about cases and um although I still do.

so I must admit I still do but I don't. do it I don't usually get bo like I. don't get obsessed with it like I used. to. >> well I have had a couple cases I got a. [laughter] little overly uh yeah yeah. but uh I would say now I enjoy it more. like I enjoy my psychotherapy with. children and I care about But I also. I I'm also really good now the type of. psychotherapy I do with children. I need.

to be just very present. >> That's the main thing I need to be is I. need to be there and present. >> And so it works well because I'm just in. my whole life. I'm more present now. But. I wasn't trained for that kind of. therapy until after I remembered. >> That's so interesting. You didn't know. it, but you just knew you wanted to. help. Mhm. >> Well, truth be told, many people in the. helping people profession have issues. that they have not worked through yet.

>> Really? >> Oh, yeah. [laughter]. >> That's a common thing. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You go into. psychology to figure out yourself. You. know, you say you go into it to help. other people, but Yeah. Many people do. I'm not saying everyone, but many people. do. These were done by our foster. children and one little boy who had. never had the experience of making. something and selling it. So, he made. these and I posted on Facebook. We sold. them for like $4 or something and I let.

him go around and ask neighbors. And so, then he had the experience of you make. something and then. Oh, this is [laughter] just too sad. This is S. You'll have to get his name. out, but. This was to his hamster. That's so sad. Um, yeah, I can't show that cuz it's got. the picture. But. >> you feel sad because. >> uh he's not doing well.

>> As is not doing well. Yeah. >> Yeah. I I wish I wish he was, but he is. He He's. Yeah. This is one of the artwork. >> I love this. Isn't it great? I think. that kid's talented. Yeah. >> Is this by us? >> It is. He was with us more than once cuz. he would go to one home and then get. kicked out and then there was another. home. This is really sad, but he was.

sexually abused by a foster father. Yeah. When [music] he had to leave the. home of the abuser, we couldn't say no. I mean, I just could not say no. I just. couldn't say [music] no. you can't come. back to our home. And so he was at our. home for a while until they found. another home for him. >> Do you know when was this [music] done? Was this after the after the abuse? >> Yeah, it wasn't right after, but it was. >> Did he name it deep struggle or. >> he named it [music] deep struggle?

That's all his doing. And the thing is. he did have behavior problems. An abuser. could say, "Well, he's lying." But he. wasn't. and and the police did follow up. with it. We're concerned he will end up. on the streets. >> Yeah. >> Mary also writes in her book, "The fact. that I do not have continuous memories. of my childhood abuse made it impossible. for me to bring any of my perpetrators. to justice. I began getting memories at. the age of 37, you know, but she does.

have boxes of journals that she's kept. for decades. These are all things you. might want because they're like old. o old uh calendars. And so then when I. was making my documentary, I'd go and. look in things. >> Yeah. And then I would see what I was. doing back then and it helped me to. figure out time frames. Sometimes I kept. them all the time and sometimes not. So. the who is inheriting my intellectual.

property is also inheriting these in. case someone wanted to go through them. at some point. I have journal entries. that are right after like my first. hypnosis and yeah, I do. I have and I've. looked at all of them. >> and she's going to pass this on to. someone who has also like they connected. on a very deep level and it's just the. way that she keeps these cataloges. Again, there's no way that she just like. sat in a hypnotherapist office and then.

walked out and was like, "You know what? You're right. Everything is so. meticulously documented. I mean, there's. so much. She even has letters from her. parents. She shared some with us, which. these letters that Mary's father has. written her are just strange. Recently, I've I've started letting myself heal. from a sexual assault I experienced in. college. And I just went to my college. 50th reunion. It was from my junior. college. When I was there, I went on a.

date with a young man. One of my friends. knew him and I didn't have a date to the. Satie Hawkins day banquet. And so I. asked him. The girls were asking me, "Well, what kind of cor are you. getting?" And I thought, "I don't know. that he is." But anyway, so I I said, "Well, a wrist corsage would be nice.". and and he got one and and I got him a. bineer. Afterwards at the college, which. was a Christian college,

they had films in what was actually. being used then as the church building. And so we went to the film afterwards. and I think he had tried to kiss me and. I didn't want, you know, like a. passionate kiss. And so anyway, when. we're sitting watching the film in what. was really a church building, he he. touched me between my legs and I brushed. his hand away and then he did do it a. second time. And now I know I could have.

just said stop or yelled or something. and there were there were many young men. at that college who I knew who would. have been glad to escort me home, you. know, and I was actually in a safe. place, but I didn't feel safe to say. what had happened because I felt like it. was my fault because I shouldn't have. asked him to give me a cr. And so. recently I've been processing that and I. just feel so sorry for that little. college student who didn't know any.

better than that. And so I think about. imagining her coming over to see me. And. I let her stay in this room that I I had. bought some new sheets for it. They're. real [music] comfy. And she could come. sleep I can imagine her coming and. sleeping here. And then the next day. [music] she gets to eat breakfast with. me and Jerry. She gets to be around safe. people. And so instead of being mad at. her for not knowing, I'm just nurturing. her. [music]. This is our bedroom. I do sleep with.

stuffed animals. I sleep with this this. guy. And then later I thought I would. like a bigger one. So sometimes I sleep. with this guy and just more to cuddle. there. >> What do Ted Bundy, Harvey Weinstein, Jerry Sanduski, remember Jerry Sanduski? >> Mhm. Clark, OJ Simpson, Bill Cosby, the. Oklahoma City Bombers, Galain Maxwell. What do they all have in common? >> High-profile. >> They have all used the same defense. witness, [music].

Elizabeth Loftess. Dr. Elizabeth Loftess. is often known as the doctor when it. comes to memory, [music] and she is a. firm believer that repressed memories. are not real. And it's very interesting. because she might have a very strong. financial motive to do so. But, I mean, what do I know? I'm sure testifying for. these defendants, they come with a price. and an exact one. $600 per hour. $600. per hour. And I'm sure that these. defendants, Ted Bundy, Harvey Weinstein, Galain Maxwell, the Nightstalker, the.

police officers accused in the Rodney. King beating, Bill Cosby, she has. testified for the defendants in each of. these trials. All of these defendants. probably would rather victims not be. believed. Elizabeth Loftess believes. that when it comes to repressed. memories, and of course, just like the. others, she always puts like quotes. around it. She says, "On one side, you. have true believers who insist that the. mind is capable of repressing memories. and who accept without reservation or. question the authenticity of recovered. memories. On the other side are the. skeptics who argue that the notion of.

repression is purely hypothetical and. essentially untestable, based, as it is. on unsubstantiated speculation and. anecdotes that are impossible to confirm. or deny." During Harvey Weinstein's. trial, she testifies, "False memories. once created either through. misinformation or through these. suggestive processes can be experienced. with a great deal of emotion, a great. deal of confidence in a lot of detail, even if they are false." Her biggest. thing in these trials when she's. testifying for the likes of Galain. Maxwell is that memories are fragmented.

Memories are not reliable. Any. neuroscientist will tell you, "Yeah, we. know." All memories though, not just. false memories that you claim are real. All memories, and I'm saying like false. memories, like she's claiming false. memory syndrome, right? >> All memories are fragmented. All. memories are incomplete and tend to fade. over time. That's just the nature of. memories in general. And while certain. details like an eye color or what. someone is wearing at what times or what. time someone arrived at someone's house. may be incorrectly recalled, people.

almost always remember the general. outline or gist of what has happened. For Galileain Maxwell's trial, Elizabeth. Loftess argues that quote, "Even. traumatic experiences can be subjected. to post-event suggestion that can. exaggerate, distort, or change the. memory.". >> So she is like the most famous memory. doctor everybody calls for. Her whole. job is just just to say whatever that. person is saying is not reliable because. memories could not be trusted. Is that. it? >> Which I'm for some reason always like. never really applies to the defendant.

And out of the 300 plus times that she. has testified in the court system, she. has only testified for prosecutors one. time. >> whilst she's charging $600 an hour. In. an interview, Elizabeth Loftess says. that she thinks that people can forget. and remember things in a very ordinary. way. And she knows that people don't. like her. She says, "I know the. prejudices and fears that lie behind the. resistance to my life's work. I. understand why we want to believe an. eyewitness who says he did it. He's the. one. I sympathize with the need to own. the past, that is, to make it one's.

truth." As for why people accept these. repressed memories, Elizabeth writes in. her book, "Was there something. inherently wrong with her? A mental. illness of some kind, a psychological. flaw, an inability to separate fact from. reality? Surely only a fragile, troubled. individual would allow herself to become. convinced that a false memory was. actually real. And if she were so. vulnerable, so easily misled, wouldn't. that indicate that in fact something. terrible had occurred in her past? [music]. She says, or it could just be, quote, simply she could have had the misfortune. to run into a misguided and overzealous.

therapist. Or perhaps the problem is. with therapy itself, a profession that. has become our new religion, offering. quick and easy answers for life's. complex and essentially unanswerable. problems. She also states that sometimes. [music] people have this internal. conflict about their childhood and to. have these quote unquote false memories. of clear-cut abuse [music] would be. easier to cope. Creating a fantasy of. abuse with its relatively clear-cut. distinction between good and evil may. provide the needed logical explanation. for confusing experiences and feelings.

Also, there have been some clinicians. who state it is in their practicing. theory that a lot of patients actually. forget remembering. Like they will. remember this memory over time. So, it's. not just like all of a sudden they. remember it decades later. It's like. they'll remember it and then they'll. repress it again. >> and they'll forget me remembering it. >> Huh. Okay. So they've had instances of. that and a lot of people think that is. probably also accurate of like you. remember it, you're repressing, your.

brain represses it and then you even. forget remembering it. And I think. sometimes it's best to just look at how. people act. At the very least, when you. boil it down, Mary is living the life. that aligns with what she says. She does. everything that aligns with [music] her. trauma, how she's recovering, how she's. healing, and how she wants to help. others. Meanwhile, Elizabeth Loftess. writes about how she hated when victims. are not [music] believed. Quote, "I do. not want to see a return of those days.

not so very long ago when a victim's. cries for help went unheard and. accusations of essay were automatically. dismissed as fantasy or wish fulfillment. and shunted away into the backwaters of. the public conscience.". >> Wait, I don't get it. Why is she writing. that then if she's defending the. >> Yeah, she's just saying that a lot of. people think that she's against essay. victims, but no, she's just here for the. truth. Meanwhile, she's testifying for. defendants like Galain Maxwell, Ted. Bundy, Harvey Weinstein. When someone's.

words and actions do not align in such a. strong repulsive way, at least in my. personal opinion, you have to wonder, excuse my language, like why the [ __ ]. not. Loftess does try to say that she is. not the one deciding someone's innocence. or guilt, just educating people on. eyewitness testimony and saying, quote, "Well, we are all innocent until proven. guilty under this wonderful system of. ours. And even very unpopular people. have a right to a defense." And while I. do agree with that sentiment at its. core, did you really have to go and. testify for over 300.

different trials with most of them being. people accused of sexual abuse? >> Is she related to Mary case or no? >> Yes. And Mary has actually confronted. Elizabeth Loftess. >> for her documentary. >> How old were you roughly that? >> About 37. >> One netizen sums it up really well. Elizabeth Loftess did not prove that. repressed memories aren't real. She. argued well that certain types of. memories can be implanted or fabricated. through suggestion. Also, the fact that. Loftess testified on behalf of Galain.

Maxwell, Harvey Weinstein, Ted Bundy, etc. raises serious red flags for me. It. doesn't discredit her research itself, but the fact that she's endorsing her. work being used in this manner doesn't. exactly indicate her to be a person with. a sole interest of finding scientific. truth. Elizabeth Loftess straight up. said that for Galain Maxwell's trial. that the financial reward for victims. could make the human brain create a. false traumatic memory. The prosecutors. questioned her, "How'd you come to that. scientific theory?" And she says, "I am. not aware of any studies on that, but. based on my research, it's definitely.

possible.". Oh, this this this woman is crazy. >> Yeah, >> she said that in court. Wow. >> Wow. >> Elizabeth Loftess was also heavily. involved in the False Memory Syndrome. Foundation with Pam Fried and Elellanar. Goldstein. She's asked like, "Is this. foundation basically just lobbying that. false memory syndrome is a thing?" And. she says, "I don't know. I mean, it's. would you say that people who are. concerned with uh about pancreatic.

cancer and form a foundation to try and. deal with it?" and support research and. educate people that they're a lobby. But. like pancreatic cancer is a very real. thing that's medically recognized. False. memory syndrome is not. So I like for. someone who is I mean on paper very well. educated. I don't know where this. analogy is coming from. This comparison. is bizarre. Elizabeth Loftess has stated. in an interview subsequent her. participation in Mary's documentary. She. says quote it was awful. It was sort of. ridiculous. I don't know why she had.

this camera on me with this side view. the whole time. I felt just very sort of. misled and I felt sorry I cooperated. And she's asked, "Did you feel like you. were misrepresented?". No, just misled. I don't know. I thought. she would be more open-minded. >> And then she is asked about how in the. documentary, Mary's documentary, Elanor. Goldstein is very aggressive with Mary. and not a nice person at all in my. opinion. Okay. But um she says, "I. understand that Goldstein was, you know,

one of those fam devastated family. members and if they have a kind of anger. about what happens in their family, you. almost can't blame them.". >> You can't blame who? >> Eleanor Goldstein for being like a. raging mean person. >> I don't think sexual touch is the horror. of all horrors. I don't think so. I think we make a big to-do about. nothing. >> Meanwhile, Mary, what she said about the.

interviews, she says, "I will say that I. dreaded each of these interviews. I felt. physically ill as the interview time. approached. I will never do something. like that again. I do not suggest other. survivors do what I did.". hearing the story at first and were you. ever doubtful or or not? >> Well, I I heard the story in little. pieces. I mean, >> um I mean, when our first date, she kind. of hinted at it and it was months and.

months where I just got little pieces of. stories. >> Mhm. >> And yes, I had a lot of doubts. [music]. >> I was trying to figure out if she was. crazy or special or. somewhere in between. It took me a long. time to decide she was truly believable. >> Was there a a moment? Was there a. defining event [music]. or was it just gradually? >> It was gradual. There there was no. single thing that changed my mind about. anything. It just was just a.

accumulation of getting to know her and. >> getting to know her credibility and who. she was. How do you feel about when people. questioning her? >> It's so normal. Um, >> every time she puts something on the. internet, there's a a counter uh posting. somewhere. And it's just it's just, you. know, anybody who puts himself out in. the public is going to get criticism. And I don't think it's any worse for her.

than anyone else who puts their, you. know, their life on the line on online. If you have to name one thing you like. most about Mary. >> Oh, I think she's the most courageous. person I've ever met. Her willingness to. put herself out there and take all the. criticism she takes. >> and and I know it hurts her a lot, but. she she keeps doing it and never quits. >> If there's a meteorite, [music]. you have the last 24 hours. How would.

you spend that 24 hours with Mary? That that is a good question. Um. [snorts]. I think we just cuddle together, tell each other we love each other and. and wait. [music]. >> How does she answer that question?

Well, I would also want to spend it with my. sons. So, yeah. So, and that's not I. mean I love my sons and I love my. husband in different ways. [music]. >> But that does come to mind. If there was. a meteor tomorrow, I'd want to see my. sons and my grandchildren and my bonus. grandson. [music]. Um but how would I spend it? me and. Jerry. holding hands a lot, you know, uh, cuddling. Um, I [music] don't think.

there's anything that's unsaid. Like, it's not like I need to tell him. that I love him because I've already I. [music] already tell him that all the. time. >> What memory of you guys will always make. you smile? Well, the memory that makes me smile is. seeing her in the wedding dress. I I was. just stunned when I saw her. I mean, I. I'd never seen her look like that. And.

it was just I was speechless, literally. >> Wow. >> And I think she uh she recognized that. and was pretty pleased herself. >> Your book is called My Life Now. >> Yes. How would you describe [music] your. life now with three words? >> Happy, happy. You know, I can say happy three. times. Happy, [laughter] happy, happy.

Um, full like I'm not lonely now. >> And. and not children, you know, it's full of. children, too. [music]. If I had a full play therapy office, it. would have like a sandbox and, you. [music] know, maybe an art easel. And I. just I'm able to rent this office. Really inexpensive. Oh, yes. This is one kid put this on me. when I was walking out to the office and.

um uh because I didn't take it off until. the child left. The children get to take home a toy when. they graduate. >> And I have had some graduate.

>> [music]. >> Good morning. Oh.

Oh, how nice. Some toys for the. Oh, thank you. Oh, thank you so much. Thank you. Would. you say you're healed? >> No, [music] I would say it's a process.

and I'm still in that process. >> I told the stars and the sky of blue. [singing] just the way [music] that I. love you. This is what they said to do. Build a [music and singing] bungalow. Build a honeymoon house for two. I talked to the tree, the tall [singing].

tree. Here's [music] what the tall tree. said to me. My very best advice to you. Build a [music and singing] bungalow. Build a honeymoon house for two. Birds [singing] and [music] bees, rivers and trees, skies [singing] of blue. Say [music]. you love me, too.

Saw two bluebirds [singing]. sitting in a tree. Here's what the. bluebird [music] said to me. Build a. nest like birds [singing] do. Build a. bungalow. Build a honeymoon house. [music] for two. [singing]. I talked to the river deep and [music]. wide. I told it how I feel inside. [singing]. It told me just what I should do. Build. a bungalow. Build a honeymoon house for.

two. [singing].