“My Parents Were Pedophiles & Forced Me Into Being With Other Pedophiles”- A Day With Lisa Plumb

So, I imagined that I could kill her a. couple different ways. I'm no good. anyway. I'm screwed up. What do I think. I'm doing being a therapist? I'm not a. good mom. I'm not a good wife. Let me. just kill her and then you can move on. You know, I'll be in prison and. bada bing, bada boom. >> There are a few workplaces where most. employees feel fear on a daily basis. where they could actually die. Not just. a I hate my job, I could die or. technically bad people and a meteor.

could strike anywhere at any time, but. genuine the second that I clock in for. work, my adrenaline starts spiking. because you can die at any moment. One. employee states ominously, ultimately. we're directly in harm's way every. single minute. We come to work with the. attitude of it's not if I'm going to get. hit, but when I'm going to get hit. That's the way of life. Which is why. when you clock in, you get handed an. alarm that you wear on your body that. has GPS and sends immediate signals to. police when it's activated. You also get.

a giant whistle to make sure that if. something happens, you can make a loud. noise to alert someone. This is at. Patent State Psychiatric Hospital where. the population consists primarily of. patients who have been committing. crimes, often violent crimes. Some of. the patients have committed murder, violent assaults, and yet they're here. because they have been found either. criminally insane, incompetent to stand. trial, or are waiting to stand trial and. are being evaluated. One psychiatrist. states, "Treating these people is not. easy. Violence is part of our lives. every day. It's not just a constant.

thing. It's not like the violence. happens now and again. Violence is part. of the daily life." One employee at. Patton State Hospital, they have 1,300. patients. She starts feeling. uncomfortable because one of the. patients there, it feels like he's. tracking her movements. It's like he's. observing her closely. Anytime she's at. work, she feels like she's being. stalked. This is a big deal. She tells. her boss about it, and they do nothing. By the next month, that patient punches. her in the face, drags her into a room, and stabs her repeatedly with a.

makeshift weapon. These are the types of. patients that are held at Patton State. Hospital, which is exactly where Donald. Gordon is sent. He's going to be there. for at least two plus years. He has on. his record over 40 different charges for. essay and abuse against a minor. But he. says there's a reason for all of this. He Don Gordon claims, quote, "Everybody. does it." Also, some of them are. promiscuous and they were the ones that. came after me. Side note, his own. children were his victims as well. The.

neurosychologist in charge of evaluating. Don Gordon states, "His marriages. weren't doing well. He kept trying to. stop himself. He was thinking about. stopping himself. He knows that it was. illegal, that he could get into a lot of. trouble, but the more he did, the more. um the more chances that he would get, but he said. he said he uh made the commitment to. himself to stop it. But he just couldn't. stop. He just didn't stop. He said the. more he did it, the more sexually. stimulated and aroused he got. That his. sex drive actually increased, but to his.

surprise, he wasn't getting satisfied. He was getting more stimulated by it. He. became obsessed with wanting more and. more. He tells the psychologist the main. reason that he went after little girls. is because quote it made him feel big, powerful, and good, but also they. seduced him. But it's going to be okay. They just need to let him free because. when he gets out of the hospital, he. will be putting parental controls on his. computer. He will not be going anywhere. where the kids are going. He promises. The police have alarmingly found locks.

of girls hair in a plastic baggie at his. house. And the only reason he was even. caught again was because he went to a. photo development center where you can. turn in film for film cameras. He turned. a roll in that had seam on there. And. yet because he argues he's going to have. parental controls on his computer. He's. not going to go where the kids are. They. let him out. Even though he used this. hospital as a networking place, he met. another sex offender in the same. hospital. And afterwards they met up at. a family nudist camp where they competed. to see who could molest more children at.

a family nudist camp which are a very. interesting place. Children are allowed. to go and most camps have rules that. everyone must be nude to be at this. property. A lot of people wonder if it's. uncomfortable for children. One camp. addresses in their very bizarre FAQ. which is a frequently asked questions. portion of their website. They answer. the question, "Are children forced to be. nude?" The word forced is an emotionally. loaded word and suggest unreasonable.

force or other inappropriate coercion. The reality is that as parents, we have. a duty to teach our children to behave. appropriately. We teach them to brush. their teeth, eat healthy foods, even if. their desires might be contrary. However, when it comes to nudity, most. children are very comfortable nudity. until they are taught otherwise by. society. With young naturous children, it's just as likely that parents force. them to wear bathing suits when visiting. municipal pools where bathing suits are. mandatory. It's a very weird FAQ page, one that.

makes me personally uncomfortable. I. will say that I'm a very pro-lo person, so what do I know? But and I know that. in different parts of the world, nudity. is not as sexually charged as maybe. America, but it it's strange. Another. rule page states, "Sungburned shoulders. may require a reasonable length t-shirt, perhaps to the waist, but certainly not. extending to the knees or to ankles. Going about the property wearing a. towel, except perhaps for the first few.

moments out of the water, is always. inappropriate. These camps clearly can be a breeding. ground for predators, especially when. only a few camps require that parents be. with their children at all times. Which. means these camps have children zones. where children and adults can gather and. play and swim in the swimming pool, play. pickle ball, play tennis. Why would. predators not go there? Like Don Gordon. and his friend from the institution. That was their hunting grounds. It was. also somewhere where Donald Gordon would.

take Lisa. One of Don Gordon's victims. will be Lisa Plum, whom he starts. abusing when she was just 11 years old. Don will tell the neurosychologist that. well, he just wanted to be a father. figure to Lisa. That's why he sexually. abused her because both of Lisa's. parents were pedals as well. And Lisa's. mom was the one to introduce her to. Donald Gordon. This is Lisa's story. [Music].

What is Glenn Eden Sun Club? >> Glenn Eden Sun Club is a family nudis. count, which means everybody gets naked. together and it's a resort. There's. pools, jacuzzi's, sauna, cafe, hiking,

tennis, camping. When you walk in, you. will see a sign. Clothing is not. optional. >> So, if you even try to throw on a jacket. cuz you're cold. >> Well, maybe if it's cold, everyone might. put a jacket on, but it doesn't get. really cold too much there. Even. children have to get naked. >> The first time you went was when you. were five. >> Yeah. >> Who took you? My mom had a boyfriend, Larry Feldman, that decided we should all go to Glenn. Eden.

>> Was there an explanation he gave? >> I don't remember a specific explanation. for Glenn Eden other than other times he. said to us, specifically me and my. sister, that he was doing what he was. doing so that we wouldn't grow up to be. frigid. >> Did you want to be there? Was it. uncomfortable? No, we did not want to go. get naked in front of each other. Yeah, that that was like a horrifying idea. when it was presented to us and. especially my brother and sister, you.

know, said we don't want to get naked. That was just not an option. >> So, you were five. How old were your. brother and sister? >> My brother was would have been eight or. nine and my sister. 10. >> Oh, wow. I mean, I I thought it was. interesting cuz I was listening to. another interview that you did and I was. like, there's no way this resort is. still around. I Googled it and it's. still open. Like, >> people are going today. And then I was. thinking, okay, well, maybe it's one of.

one that's still open, but there's so. many throughout the country. There's. just so many all ages nud resorts. Do. you feel like that is a place where bad. things happen from. >> Well, who wants to be naked in front of. kids? I mean, who wants to see naked. kids? >> It's definitely not safe for children. because it's a pedophile magnet. >> and if you're a pedophile and you know. about it, why wouldn't you go? And they. they let people go. That's who took me. was pedophiles and then there's.

pedophiles there. >> When you say that's who took you pedals, do you mean just Larry or Larry and your. mom? >> Well, my mom, I don't know. Um I guess. depending on how you define pedophile, but she didn't have a problem um being. sexual around us as children. >> What do you mean by that? >> One day I heard some strange noise in my. mother's room. They had called me in the. room and then told me to sit down. At. 5:00 I really had no context or idea. And I went in and again I did not.

understand what I was seeing other than. I was freaked out. They were having. intercourse. But at the time again I. didn't understand and I asked my mom are. you okay? >> Was there any discussion with your mom. after that happened? >> Yeah I don't remember any discussion. other than another time they did that on. the kitchen table. I have no idea why. the kitchen table I had forgotten this. part but one of my siblings told me that. Larry asked my brother to take pictures.

Gave him a camera. And so it's us three. kids kind of awkwardly giggling and just. like, you know, looking around watching. >> Do you think that your mom was a file. who attracted otheriles or do you think. that she was someone who was so starved. for male attention? Not that it would. justify anything, but. >> Right. >> I mean, she definitely was different. than like Larry or others. like they.

were very intentional and they had. plans. So I had a therapist once tell me. that she was vicariously. >> molesting me and us. There was a. actually a scholarly article he gave me. I have it somewhere in a box somewhere. I keep trying to find it. But I don't. know is she like she's a vicarious. Um she didn't have any boundaries. No. problem. I also feel like she was a. malignant narcissist. I do believe she.

was abused and she has a bad reputation. in her family for being an awful scary. person. >> In the beginning, it was you, your two. siblings that were adopted, correct? Your mother and your biological father, and they divorced when you were. >> four or five. >> What was it like up until four or five. as a family unit? >> Right. So I don't remember a lot because. we really don't have picture memory. until about the age of five. We have.

implicit memory. What is that? >> So our bodies remember but we our brains. don't start to make pictures with the. memory until about then. Most people. don't have very many memories at all. You may have a couple here and there. under the age of five. All I remember. really from my early early childhood is. I was a little Episcopalian girl. and we went to church and I was very. devout and I thought our priest looked. like Jesus. Honestly, that's all I.

really remember. But as soon as my. parents divorced, we were no longer. going to church. So, she had tried to. kill herself. I didn't know it at the. time, but I do remember, this is one of. my earliest memories as well, is her. laying down in bed. It was dark in the. room and she was just kind of out of it. Then my grandma came um and stayed with. us for 2 or 3 weeks, I'm not sure. Then. after that, as my brother has nickname, her Hollywood mom came home.

>> Describe that. My mom could be very. charming, very personable, very put. together, and she started having singles. um clubs, meets in her home, other. single adults. Our home had to be. perfectly clean at all times. And when. she had these singles clubs, we were. supposed to basically stay in the room. or whatever. But people would meet us. and see us. One minute before anybody. came, she'd be screaming at us. you.

know, we'd have to clean and do this and. that and then someone would knock on the. door and she'd be like, "Hi.". You know, completely change her. demeanor. >> Did you find solace in your siblings or. was it because it was so tough you guys. were having problems as well? What was. that like with your siblings? >> Well, there I think there there was. some, you know, solace, but really not a. lot. I suppose it was probably because. of the dynamic that my father set up and.

my mom. Um, like my parents participated. in what's called parental alienation. syndrome. Basically, one parent talking. crap about the other parent, the other. parents talking crap about them, and you. have to like share messages. You know, they're arguing in front of you. My mom. would say, "Your dad, I don't know if I. should fully say it, but um likes to f. men in their ass, you know, like to us. little kids.". >> How old were you? >> I I'm five. My dad's like, "Your mom's. crazy." And one day I felt like I needed.

a hug. No, I don't want your siblings. who are adopted to feel bad. In my mind, I don't think I said it out. loud, but I definitely thought, well, just hug them, too. >> Yeah. >> It was always pointed out, they're. adopted. I'm not. They're adopted. I'm. not. One time, I was trying to comfort. my mom because my mom would kind of. cycle from angry rampage mom to sobbing,

sobbing mom. And sometimes she'd just be. up all night. She was a piano player and. she would just cry at the piano. But. this time, she was in her room crying. and I'm trying to go comfort her and she. said something like, "I wish your sister. and brother were like you." Oh, I wish I. could just run off with you. You know, and they're like I could see them. looking. >> and I felt bad for them and I didn't. want her to say that, but so we were. kind of pitted against each other. On.

top of that, you know, the Larry was. also violent and overized us because. there was more than watching them have. he would single out myself sometimes do. certain acts with with him and my mom, you know, to me and then my sister in. the room alone. I don't recall him doing. that with my brother, but he lost his. temper one day and he told me to make. him a bath. Then my brother comes out of. his room saying you the mother. So.

whatever my brother, you know, had a. cuss mouth and Larry just did not like. that disrespect. So he was yelling at. him and he grabbed him by his ankles and. picked him up and dunked his head in the. toilet a few times. >> Just for clarity, Larry, the first uh. boyfriend after the divorce happened. Yes, there was another pedal that. targeted me, but I he was more like just. a handyman friend of my mom. But John. John the bird feel like he was before.

Larry or they were almost like at the. same time. No, John, you know, again, these singles clubs and single mothers. are ped magnets. So, they're just. looking for opportunities. >> Mhm. >> And the more vulnerable the better, right? John started doing repairs, giving us ice cream. You know, we grew. up in Riverside and it's hot in the. summer. And then he just started. molesting me. Me. I was probably in his right age group.

There was another time that John had. taken me into a field. We lived in like. a little middle class neighborhood and. there was orange groves and then there. was like a horse property. So it was. kind of converting, you know, from. agriculture probably. So there was. fields and like he would take us to. Thrifty's ice cream and he's like, "You. want to get ice cream, Lisa?" Yeah. But. instead of going there, he drove me into. a field. I always remembered that, right? But then as an adult, a trigger.

happened and then I had more memory and. basically to survive that I had to do. some inner child work. But what happened. is he threatened if I told that he would. insinuate that my mom would die, he. would kill my mom. And again, I really. didn't even know what he was talking. about. What should I say, not say? I. don't have the words. I just didn't say. much. >> Could I ask what triggered you later? >> My mom's death.

>> Yeah. And at the time, and I I I write. about it in the book, it was really. weird. After she died, I started getting. like these images of him. It's like, why. why him? Why now? You know, and but I. realized after doing some work, some. therapeutic work that because he said if. I said anything, she would die. But once. she died, there was no no need to keep. the secret anymore. When did your mom.

pass? >> 2007. Yeah. So, he was molesting me. He. had brought me crayons and a coloring. book and told me to lay down in a. certain place and he he was had his hand. up under my dress. My sister comes in. the house. She runs in and sees John. molesting me and just like gets like. really angry and looks at me. What's. going on? You know, and I I didn't again. I didn't have words. Some people have. said this is why you need to teach kids.

the proper names of body parts. I agree. with that. You should teach kids the. proper names of body parts. But that. wouldn't have prevented me being. molested or some other children in. similar circumstances. when your family isn't supportive or. they're part of it. But. >> so your sister sees that she's almost. upset with you. Did she tell your mom? She must have told my mom and my dad. because then um a day or so later they.

called me into the kitchen. My mom, my. sister and John and my sister's the one. that's upset, you know, and she's like, "Tell tell mom what happened or whatever. she said." And again, you know, at the. time I'm five and I don't even whatever. remember. I just don't have much to say, but I I didn't say anything. What did your parents take from that. then? >> I don't remember anything happening. after that other than John stopped. coming by and my sister told me later.

that he she's friends with his. granddaughter or something and that she. was being molested by him too, which. isn't a surprise. But. >> at the time, your sister's anger, was. that towards John? Was that towards the. situation? Was that towards being young. and having no idea what's going on? I. mean, I think all of it, she's young, she's not being parented, right? She's. seeing bad things happen and her. instinct and, you know, is kicking in.

her wise self and she's probably getting. like really frustrated with my parents. You know, my mother really didn't she. didn't do any she there was no comfort. There was nothing um like that. And then. um one day around that time, my dad, I'm. in the car with him and he said, "I. heard you were molested. again." What do I say? I don't even know. what to say to that. And then he said, "Just don't make a big deal about it.".

>> Why do you think he said that? >> Well, now because he's a pedophile. He. is for sure. He's a bad father. He has. no nurturing bone in his body. um he. doesn't think it's bad for kids and I. don't know what that meant. Don't make a. big deal about. But I remember thinking. about it, like what does that mean? >> A lot of people their parents will tell. them not to make a big deal because. maybe they don't want it to reflect on. the family or maybe they care about what. other people think, but it seems like. your dad genuinely didn't think it was a.

big deal. >> Yeah, I know that's a fact. So John's. out of your life and now Larry starts. dating your mom or around the time he is. the first person that forces the entire. family to go to Glenn Eden. >> While we were at Glenn Eden, there was. um at least a couple molesters lurking. around. I'm sure there was more, but. there was a I call him the hairy guy. He. was in the the little pool, the kitty. pool, and um he had us all lining up and. he would pick us up and throw us. He's.

He slipped right grabbing my groin area. It hurt. You know, >> he's lining up children. >> Children are all lined up, tossed in the. deeper end. You know, >> where are any of the other adults at? >> Just walking around. >> They see it. They walking by. >> No, no second thoughts about it. I mean, I did go down a rabbit hole because I. was like, I didn't even know nudist. camps for families existed. So, I'm. looking and I was trying to understand.

why people would even advocate for it. existing. >> And I mean, there's this one place they. were doing a Q&A cuz I was trying to see. maybe the other perspective of is this. an establishment that should exist? >> Right? >> And it was, "Are children forced to be. naked?" And their response was so. bizarre. It was force is an emotionally. charged word. In fact, if you force your. child to wear a bathing suit, that is. also a use of force. Children have to do.

things they don't want to do all the. time. >> Yeah. They're all philosophers. And I'm. sure some people go to nudist camps. aren't pedoph. >> Hey, there's this guy the doctor. They. call him the I don't know if he was a. doctor, but he um would wear goggles and. just swim underneath. >> Oh my god. I know people. >> and nobody was like we got to. >> well us kids I don't know what the. adults were doing or if anyone told the.

adults but we'd be like this you know. when he go to swim under or h he's there. we can't really go swimming cuz everyone. was like creeped out by him and so there. was that and then also you know when. you're socialized early and you're. looking at naked people looking at each. other like kids are starting to try to. you. act out prematurely. >> I was reading online of someone saying. they had a term called COG, creepy.

outside guys that would try to get into. the nudist camps. >> Oh, >> to look at the children. >> So, it seems like it's a a big issue. that they try to. >> Let's just keep doing that. >> Yeah. >> How about if you want to be naked in. front of adults, keep it to adults, >> right? Yes. >> Leave the children alone. So, how. frequently would Larry force you guys to. go to Glenn Eden? >> We probably went every weekend or once a. month, but then he gave my mom a letter.

breaking up with her and which she had. us read. Basically, he had to break up. with her because he just couldn't take. us kids anymore. >> Your mom made you guys read the letter. Yeah. >> What's the reason behind that? >> Um, because she's pointing out how we. ruined her relationship with this guy. they were gonna get married, you know, and us kids again. >> Were you happy to hear that letter? >> I mean, I felt sad for my mom. >> because I did. You know, when you're.

kids, like before you hit puberty, usually children are just all about. their parents and always trying to do. the right thing and really care about. them. And anyway, that's how I felt. But. also, I didn't miss him. >> at all. Life just went on. And what. happened, you know, like when you molest. a child, you molest the neighborhood. really, right? So, um, my brother had. experienced violence earlyization. and, um, he started to take that out on.

me. >> I think there was something you said. that stuck with me. It was like when you. are labeled as having been used, people. feel like you're fair game. >> Humans are like that. Yeah. My brother. just started um he was kind of like the. leader boy in the neighborhood. My. brother and sister were they were tough. kids. Started pancing me. We definitely. didn't have video games at the time and. stuff. We're always playing outside. hideand go seek and all that and but it. became a game. chase Lisa down and.

pounce her. And so they'd rip off my. clothes and then, you know, like pin me. down and force my legs open and all of. that like over and over and pretend or. try to put objects in and just like. thought that was the most hysterical. thing. >> What is your relationship like with your. brother now? >> Yeah. So, I'll just say when I um. started to the healing process, I. decided I was going to confront the.

people I could cuz I was really pissed. >> Yeah. >> I started to get really in touch with. that. And uh although my therapist is. like, I don't recommend it, you know? I'm like, >> oh well, I'm going to go do it anyway. But I started to confront my brother. Out of all the people I confronted, he. didn't let me finish. And he said, Lisa, I'm sorry for what I did to you. >> Do you forgive him? I do. I forgive him. And forgiveness is a really difficult. word. And how do you define it and all. of that, right? But um it doesn't erase.

emotions right away. Sometimes people. prematurely forgive. Sometimes they're. not open to it. My relationship with him. now is not it. We don't have a. relationship right now. He's really. struggled his whole life. Struggled to. be regulated, we'll say. I wish there. was something I could do or to be. helpful in that, but I'm also not going. to take verbal or otherwise abuse. >> How old were you and how long did that. last? >> So, I feel like it happened about the.

time of Larry, >> maybe when Larry was still around or. right after he left. And it stopped when. my stepdad came in my life. >> Is this Ray? >> Yeah. Uh unfortunately though, the. neighborhood um kids like the boys that. were involved. I do remember one. friend's brother one time was kind of at. it or you know part of the group and. then he never came back around, >> you know, like he's like, "No, I don't. want part of this." But some of some of.

the other boys did continue. So just. saying kids have choices too, right? And. he didn't he didn't want to be a part of. it. But these other boys down the. street, they I don't know what was. happening to them too, but they just. took on a life of their own. Like I'd be. riding my bike down the street and they. come and pull me off my bike and drag me. into their room. And one time I'm. sobbing on this guy's lap and his mom. hears, knocks on the door, opens it. Is. everything okay? And I'm sitting there.

like 6, 7, 8, I don't know how old I. was. And she said, "Is everything okay?". to her sons and they're like, "Yeah, it's fine." And she closed the door and. walked away. >> So, these are other like 6, seven, 8year-old boys. Were they a lot older? >> They they were not 6, seven, they were. older. I'm not sure if they were four. years older or 6 years older, but they. were definitely stronger than me. >> And I'm sure if you're riding your bike.

and they're pulling you off your I mean, someone's got to see that at some point, right? You would think so. >> So, nobody says anything. Nobody It just. keeps continuing. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't know what the. neighborhood saw or didn't see, but. we're just kind of wild kids in the. neighborhood. You know, we all smoked, >> drank, stole what we could from the. store. Um, weed, but I was a regular. smoker at 8 and you could get cigarettes. from vending machines, but my mom always.

had a carton and we'd just like take. cigarettes. And so I don't even remember. >> my first cigarette. >> So Ry comes into your life. Who is Ry? >> Um so Raymond Mcnite one morning I was. going to go to school. My mom was. actually going to take me. Um but this. guy knocks on the door and I go and open. it and he's just like, "Hey." You know,

big old smile. And he was carrying. fuller brush stuff. Do you know what. that is? >> Cleaning supplies, I guess, and mops and. whatever. Selling Fuller brush stuff. door to door. And um so my mom invited. him in, got him some coffee, and they. started talking and then she took me to. school and when I got back home that. day, he was still there. See, >> but luckily he was a good guy. Um. because he could have totally been a bad.

guy. you know, my mom's like, "Hey, anybody, it's fine." Um, and so they. stayed together and Raymond, he was just. um, again, a good guy. And he started to. notice some of the dynamic in the. family. And he was probably the first. one that ever told my brother, "Boys. don't hit girls.". >> Wow. >> Yeah. Like that's not okay. He started. to parent us. Do you feel like all of.

you guys felt safer, better with Raymond. around, >> but then he leaves? Your mother leaves? >> Well, so he was a merchant marine. He. was a cook on oil tinkers mostly. So he would be gone a lot, but I guess. when he wasn't on a ship, sometimes he'd. do sales like Fuller Brush and stuff, but um I was the youngest and he made up. a nickname for me, but he would always. call me baby or sugar, you know, like.

from North Carolina, you know, and um. >> but then he's like, I want to call you. vanilla and he's chocolate, you know. But I remember thinking at the time like. I don't even like vanilla. >> Yeah, I'd much rather be chocolate. I. like chocolate. But he wanted that. And. so he'd always say, "Hey, vanilla." I. guess I cried a lot at night. I also had. a problem where instead of peeing the. bed, like I wouldn't pee for a long. time. I was just like, so like in the.

middle of the night, I'd wake up and I'd. have to go. I was in a lot of pain. But. he wasn't really part of that. But when. I was crying at least a couple times, I. remember him coming in and picking me up. and carrying me and putting me next to. my mom and then he went to the couch. Now, my mother never did that on her. own. She just let me cry. But he, cuz he. is a good guy, figured, "Oh, she needs. to be with her mom." It was that act.

that was nurturing, not him putting me. with my mom. >> Yeah. Having Ry in your life, did it. make you realize? Because at that point. you said right afterwards you didn't. really understand that you were. traumatized. Did that maybe put things. into perspective or you were still at. the age where you weren't processing it? Yeah. I I mean I don't even think trauma. even became a word for many many years. later at least in regards to childhood. Although one day I did see a child abuse. commercial. >> Oh.

>> I was looking at it. I was like, "Does. that. >> am I, you know, am I included in this? Do I count like just kind of a weird. >> first introduction to it?" So, see, advertising works. >> Yeah. >> That's the first thing that got me. thinking about child abuse with Rey. I. know now looking back what he what we. would say in the therapeutic world is he. was a protective factor. >> Can you tell me more about that? >> Yeah. So, there's a study called the ACE.

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But adverse childhood experiences are. basically. severely traumatizing or stressful. events or occurrences that happen in. children's lives. It was actually a. California doctor, an obesity doctor. that started it at the time. He was. interviewing his patients to see if they. were ready for surgery. And he. accidentally asked the wrong question. Um, how much did you weigh at your first. experience? And the person said 40. pounds. And so he was like, "Oh, oh, I.

wonder if like he didn't mean to ask. that, but it's pretty logical now." But. he started to wonder if ch if being. molested was correlated to being obese, and it is, they've discovered. But not. just that, it's not just a 100%. correlation, but any adverse childhood. experience, physical abuse, abuse, parents divorcing, losing a parent, parent in in prison, feeling neglected. or unloved, I forget the other ones. Um, I don't like how they asked the.

molestation question because they asked, did someone 5 years older than you, >> that's a why? That's a big gap. It used. to be kind of like 2 years. You can be. molested by someone your own age, someone just more powerful. Adults can. be molested, but of course, it's. different. It's not a child situation. Um but anyway, um there's still it's. ongoing across the world study. What. they have found is that the more ACEs. you have, the more likelihood in. adulthood you'll be obese, have cancer,

heart disease, drug, alcohol, addiction, and mental illness. Again, it's not 100%. correlation, but it's a high much higher. correlation. And the really um one of. the main reasons is when you go into the. stress state, fight, flight, freeze or. fawn, your body releases adrenaline, norepinephrine, cortisol, these. chemicals that help us in case, you. know, a tiger's attacking us or. something. And we need that. So, cuz. then we numb out, we don't feel it, or. we're extra strong, we can lift the car. off our husband or um but you only want.

to go in it and out. But when you're. under these constant stressors, you're. always your body changes to always being. in the stress state. And that feels. normal, but it's not good for you. because then you're always in an. inflamed state. >> and that's like sucks the dopamine or. serotonin from our brain, right? And. then we we're dopamine seekers. And. there's healthy ways of getting dopamine. and unhealthy ways, but you know, like. drugs, alcohol, all that is quick.

dopamine hits. But when people have. protective factors in their childhood, their outcomes are better. >> So it kind of it's like a balance maybe. a little. >> Yeah. So I really think if I hadn't had. Rey, >> I mean maybe maybe I wouldn't have been. able to survive cuz he gave me a taste. of what love feels like, what it. actually feels like. Um, but a. protective factor could be a parent, a a. teacher, a a friend, a coach, you know,

just somebody like every little good. thing that you can say to somebody. matters. It really matters like like. you're you're really special or you. know, I can see you're going to do good. in life or all of that adds up. >> I know there's a guy named Donald. >> Don, how did he even come into your. life? You were 11. >> Yeah, I was 11. Um my sister uh she I. guess she graduated high school early. but this is my memory. She graduated. high school and went back to Indiana to.

visit our grandmother. >> Mhm. >> via train and on the way back she met. Don and Jod the being the pedoph they. were they saw a young girl. uh you know I'm guessing this is how it. happened and started talking to her. Where are you from? Blah blah blah. Somehow they figured out that she had. been to Glenn Eden before and they're. like, "Well, you should come to Glenn. Eden with us, you know, and Oh, and you. have an 11-year-old sister.

She should go to Glenn Eden.". >> So, they come over and meet your mom. >> Yeah. But the first time I met them, like my mom said, "You're going to go to. Glenn Eden." And I didn't want to go to. Glenn Eden because I don't want to get. naked in front of people. And then of. course I don't want to see the hairy guy. or the doctor, whatever. Right. And then. I don't know these people. >> Why do you think your mom was basically. forcing you to go to Glenn Eden? >> She told me she didn't want me to argue. with my brother. We argued too much. But.

my brother was beating my ass all the. time. Okay. My siblings were beating me. up. And I mean, I did my best, right? But I was the youngest. And and my. brother's a tough guy. So there was. always chaos, right? My mom yelled at. us. We yell at each other. Just it was. always like that. But anyway, she said. that I could go with them and then we. wouldn't argue. >> So, your brother's going to stay home. You and your sister are going to go to. Glenn Eden with this random couple she. met on a train. >> Yeah. But really, the way it was set up,

it seemed like it was just me going, but. my sister did go at least the first. couple times, but she had a boyfriend. and she was like 16. So, what happened. is they show up, I have to go. I'm not. given the option. But Jodie, she's like. 6'2 and she was a basketball player. >> Wow. >> And I love sports, martial arts and. stuff at the time. It was I just loved. softball. I was a softball player. Jodie, of course, looking back now, I.

see it like she was like brilliant in. her grooming. But I come out looking at. this 6'2 tall, skinny blonde woman, blue. eyes, and she has one eye that looks the. other way. >> So, I'm trying not to stare at it, but. she's super charming. Don said, "Oh, you're an athlete, huh? Like, what. sports do you play?" And Jod's like, "I. play basketball." And she said she was. the first woman to slam dunk it in. Illinois or something. I don't know if. that's true. Do women slam dunk? Anyway,

I was like enthralled by her. He's just. like this creepy guy, you know. Um, but. basically she's just talking talking, which is a perpetrator technique. The. Gift of Fear by Gavin Debecker is a. really good book to read to learn about. perpetrator techniques so you can better. guard yourself against them. But so. she's just talking talking and saying, you know, well, let's like race out to. the car. I have a basketball, whatever. So we raced, right? And she's like, "You.

almost beat me." Yeah, >> I didn't. And then we go to Glenn Eden. And so I am a smoker at the time, but um. I'd never smoke in front of adults. And. there she's like, "Here, you can have a. cigarette." I'm like, "Really? Me smoke. in front of you?" You know, and that's. how they got me to Glen Eden. But she. just made it all super charming at. first. So then um we get there, same. thing. You pull up to the toll booth and. the guy is like, "Oh, is this your.

daughter?" And he's like, "No, but I. have this letter from her mom." And he's. like, "Okay, go on.". >> Your mom went out of her way to write a. letter to send. >> gives them permission to take me. And. that's probably how most ped go in if. they if there is any rule against a. single man or something, they just find. like a vulnerable woman probably. But. all the rules are different. So. everything was a game with Don and Jod. I said, "I don't want to go. I don't.

want to get naked." And Jod's like, "It's fine. We're together." And then we. get out of the car. It's like, "It's a. race. Who can get naked first?" You. know? So then it was just weird, you. know, as usual at the Nudas camp. Just. laying out in the sun and naked people. trying to not look at him, but you can't. help it. Playing tennis, just whatever. What happened one time? This guy was in. the pool with me and kind of dunking me. and I guess it was flirtatious. >> Don came down to the pool angry and told.

me to get out and said that I was acting. or something. >> Yeah. This was later though. This was. not the first time. They had already. been actively molesting me at that. point. >> After this first experience, how did. they pray on you and abuse you further? They just kept picking you up for the. weekend. >> and your mom just let you go spend the. weekends with them. >> Yeah. Basically how it started was when. we went to the apartment, which my mom. said I had to go and I just started.

going to their apartment. Same rules as. Glenn Eden. Once you step in, your. clothes are off. Family nudist camps are. quite the grooming tool. From that. point, you know, I had free rain to. alcohol. They made me alcoholic drinks. Jody had me cook with her and we gave. Don drinks and um cigarettes. And then. really how it started was one day Jod. was at work. I didn't like to be alone. with Don, but I was. And we had just. been at the mall and we're in his car.

and he said, "Your sister said that you. want to have me.". And I'm horrified and like terrified at. that. And I said, "No, no, I don't like you." And I feel. like I'm in trouble. >> Like like he's like your sister said, you know. >> I said, "No, I don't want to." And he's. like, "No, it's okay." You know, it's. all right. And I I said, "No, but I I. don't you know, like he's probably 40, 39 or 40.". >> Um and I am 11.

>> Yeah. >> And anyway, I was super worried that Jod. would hate my guts. So I said, "Don't. tell Jod, please." And finally, he. agreed. So, I was afraid that Jodie. would find out and then hate me cuz I. just that's what children do. >> Yeah, >> we're magical thinkers and egocentric at. least till 8, but older, too. Like, everything feels like it's our fault. That's just the way our brains work. >> So, he said he wouldn't tell Jodie, but.

we picked her up from work. She pops in. the truck and he says, "Guess what? Lisa. wants to have me.". And I'm just horrified. And um she says, "Oh, okay. That's fine." I just sunk, you know, and then the next thing I. remember is just them trying to talk me. into. a acts like come in the room and watch. That's apparently a big thing. You can.

just start by watching and then I had to. scoot closer and then eventually. participate more and more. But it was. always, you know, a manipulation, grooming. Jody said to me once that if I. had a good father, I would want to have. with him. One of the things that he. liked to do was watch a movie called. Pretty Baby with me. I listened to that. part of your interview and I think the. way you were describing it initially, I.

was so convinced it was like a movie off. the dark web and it's very much a real. movie that you can buy online for $3.99. right now. Right. >> Can you tell us about Pretty Baby the. movie? >> Right. So, Brook Shields, the very. famous Broo Shields was 11 or 12 at the. time and and I'll just say she was not a. developed girl at that age. She looked. like a child. I'll just be explicit. No. pubic hair, no breasts, a child's body.

Okay. But in the movie, she is um the. daughter of Susan Sandon, who is a to at. a brothel, I guess, in New Orleans. And. everyone's just happy and everyone just. loves their job, right? But Brook. Shields is reaching the ripe age of 12, which is where she's going to start. working. And so they're going to have. this auction for her virginity. basically. And it's a whole group of. just creepy men bidding on her. They.

bring her out in like a I don't I don't. remember what you call it, but they're. holding her up on a plank or something. in the movie. Wow. >> Dressed in white. >> And looking like a child, but with. makeup on her and like sparklers and. everyone's like, "Oh, this is so. wonderful." you know, and Brook Shields. in the movie, I know she was a victim. Just her character is just happy about. all of it and it's great. Um, >> so it doesn't show any trauma. >> No trauma. But then the guy that wins.

takes her up to the room and you see um. soft porn basically. You don't see full, but you can tell they're having and then. she's like screaming and or not. screaming, but wincing or whatever. And. then afterwards, she's like a clump on. the bed and you think she's traumatized, right? But then all the others come in. and she's like, "I'm fine." And just. kind of like she's kidding, you know? And it's just so great. And she's.

totally not affected by it at all. And. then you see her bathing and you see her. full naked body and they're talking. about how they're going to keep selling. her as a virgin for a while cuz they. can. and one of the Keradines is like. becomes her husband and he slaps her and. you know and whatever she's playing with. dolls but the whole point of the movie. really is it's showing like it's totally. fine you know to have at that age and. make money and it doesn't bother you.

And so that's one of the things Don said. to me. Um he said that he was busted for. molesting his children. But of course. it's not molestation. It's people that. aren't aware of like higher laws and you. know are repressed or Yeah. Um he said. he didn't harm his children. The court. system harmed his children. That's what. harmed his children. >> I love the quote when you say all. pedophiles are philosophers. >> They are. Yeah. They have a complete.

explanation why they are living the. higher law. Why other people are. repressed? They are all pedophiles are. philosophers. And he told me too, he. said, "You know, your mom is crazy.". Like he and Jod would like interject. these things. She was. That's true. And. he knew it. >> But they're also. >> right. But also, when you tell a child. that, >> it's going to alienate them more and. cause confusion. And when you're. confused and you're not sure, like. you're you're you're not steady. You.

don't know. And of course, I really I. know now I I couldn't have chosen any. differently. But um but that's how. perpetrators keep people off balance. One of the ways. >> I know you have a change.org petition to. ban Pretty Baby. >> Mhm. >> I was trying to figure out how it's not. already banned. Um. >> they say because it's artistic and she. was not actively engaged in being that. it's not CCM, which I think is insane.

because how is it how can you justify. artistic expression on that? And they. won't they wouldn't make a movie like. that now. No. >> Or they would get in trouble. >> Yeah. So he would make you watch this. movie. >> over and over just like here come sit. down. And at the time he had a um a. projector. It started with me sitting. next to him here and Jody there. And. then he would touch us. Even on a. camping trip we went on. He brought it. There was actually a couple times, I can.

only think of one right now, where I see. now looking back. grooming me to maybe be a a prostitute. >> Well, of course, pretty baby, right? Um, also trying to normalize it. And he was. always like, it would be me doing you a. favor is how he framed it. >> to be my my first, you know, like like. it would be a chore for him. and you. know we're friends and we're like close. so this is like the best way and you.

know but I I was resistant I was always. like I don't want to this was just. something that he continued to try to. do. One time we were um in a city. somewhere and they said we're going to. go to like pick a part or something so. you should just wait here in this park. I'm like okay whatever. So, I'm just. sitting in this park up against a tree. and then a truckload of men speaking. another language. start walking towards me. Like they park.

and they start walking towards me and. I'm like, and this guy, he starts. speaking in Spanish. Hey, showing me his. wallet. And I'm like, uh, I don't speak. Spanish. He's like, "You me in the. truck?" And I'm like freaked out. And I. just said, "No, no, no." And gratefully. they left. >> So you think they set that up? >> Yeah, I definitely do now. So cuz then. I'm sitting there like, you know, like.

they left. I'm upset. And Don and Jod. finally come back and I get I get in the. truck and I told him what happened and. Don said, "You should have done it.". Mhm. >> And how long did this go on for? >> From 11 to 13, so we were always naked. and there was other girls. Sometimes the. camera was always out. I do remember. sometimes Jod like dressing me up and. something. But again, everything's a. game and we're just all happy and having. fun together and whatever and drinking a.

little bit here, smoking a little bit. there. They're still molesting me. But. as time went on, I saw the other girls. less and less. It was just me and Don. and Jod a lot. One day, Don said that, you know, I could be a model. And I was. like, I thought very low of myself. I. thought I was ugly and fat. Not that. there's anything wrong with whatever you. weigh, but anyway. And I didn't like the. idea, but he's like, "No, no, like I'm. going to take you to this.

photographers's." But also, some other. girls went. >> I know that on the way there, you hear a. voice. >> Mhm. Okay. >> Yeah. So, again, at this time, I think. I'm closer to 13, >> and I really didn't know anywhere I was. ever going driving, right? Except for. like right where I grew up. I knew that. area. >> Anyway, I'm just in the back of the. pickup truck just going to those. photographers. Even though I didn't want. to, I did. I I heard a voice. It said,

"Lisa, memorize how to get there.". I just kind of shrugged it off like that. was weird, you know? Then I heard it. again. Lisa, memorize how to get there. and it just felt like really kind and. like do it, you know, sort of like. really please do it. And so I did. I. just I looked out open up the little. shell window and I'm like memorizing. like it's this is in Santa Ana,

California, 14th Street, 7th Street. like I'm memorizing. And then we pull up. and it's like this twotory office. building with the doors almost like a. hotel. It's kind of ugly. So we all race. up, you know, cuz it's a game. They open. the door and this guy is sitting behind. this desk and he had a Rubik's cube. So. I said, "Hey, can I play with your. Rubik's cube?" and he just like coldly. met my eyes with his. >> and didn't say anything but just like.

this. really uncomfortable, you know, like it. made me just like look away and I just. sat down. So, the pictures were just not. naked or anything. And we got over that. I would say the next week. Well, before. that happened, I was alone in the. apartment with Don and Jod and I heard. him talking on the phone with this guy. and he said, "Lisa, we'll do nude. pictures." I said because it seemed. surprising to me for some reason. I. said, "No, I won't." And Don turned and. looked at me like, you know, and he, you.

know, cuz he's on the phone with the. photographer and he said, you know, "Sit. down." And he's usually trying to be Mr. Nice, fun guy, and that that was it. But. then later that week at school, detectives came to my school to. interview me. Don and Jod had gotten. busted. At the time they had what's. called photomat. >> Yeah. You used to have to turn in your. film to get pictures developed.

>> and he turned in the pictures of his. victims. >> Yeah. Probably. >> he thought this is completely normal or. was it an accident? Like. >> I mean that's what I heard. I'm not 100. 100% but I think I read that in a police. report or something. >> So the police come to the school. They. ask you questions about Don and Jod and. then your mom comes. By this point, she. already knew that the police were. talking to you. >> Well, like usually I rode my bike to. school, but yeah, that day she was. picking me up and they had asked. questions and asked me why my mom let me.

go, you know, and I said, "Well, I had. to go. She told me I had to go." He. said, "You're going to go to a shelter. home." which I didn't really understand. again at the time that it was because. they were suspicious of my mom and going. to put me somewhere safe. I guess she. came in the office and I'm walking out I. guess to go to the shelter home. She. like grabs me and hugs me. Why didn't. you tell me? Why didn't you tell me? And. tell you what, like I didn't think about. it at the time, but obviously I.

remembered like all the stuff you did. with me, you know, like obviously she. was just trying to look good in front of. the police officers and like she never. hugged me before. >> They're arrested. Did you have any. feelings in that moment? >> Felt guilty. I felt sad. I felt. confused. >> So that was the feeling in the moment. >> Mhm. >> When did it change? When did you feel. like I shouldn't feel this way? >> What? Did it take years? >> Uh, yeah, it took years. In this shelter.

home, you get in there and the girls are. like, "What are you in here for?" "Oh, I. was beaten. Oh, I was molested." And I'm. I'm like, "What am I in here for? I. don't know." You know, but we concluded. I was molested. Well, I had found out. about the photographer at this point, and I thought, "What does that mean? They don't love me. >> What exactly happened to the. photographer? He was taking photos of. kids. >> Yeah. So, when I was first put in the.

shelter home like the next day and was. interviewed by Orange County detectives, one of the detectives somehow it's just. me and him in a room and he said, "Do. you happen to know where this. photographer is?" And how I even know to. ask the questions, right, or find me or. anything else? Um, I don't know. But he. said, "Don and Jod don't know where this. photographer is. M. >> and I was like I remembered I memorized. how to get there and before I could say. that he said that he was known for.

killing kids. >> Killing kids. >> Yeah. He he literally told me a girl was. found in a dumpster and a boy was t tied. to a chair. My whole life I was like it. feels like I'm making it up when I say. it. you know, uh, years later, the. detective that, um, the one of the. detectives was very kind to me, but I. called him years later and I asked him. about it. Did you know? And he said, "Yes, I did, but I I knew he was a snuff.

film maker, but I didn't want you I. didn't want to burden you anymore." That. detective in the room told me that, and. then I said, "I know how to get there.". >> And and you took them there. You guys. were in the car, drove there. >> He said, "Let's go right away." And I. said, "Turn here. Turn here." I tried to. look at it last time I was in Santa Ana. or on the map. >> You still remember? >> Yeah. But I I would if I saw it if it. was still there, but we literally all.

three of us, two detectives and me, go. up to the studio door. >> They just let you go to the door. >> They did. And they knocked on it. And I. I'm thinking at this point, what if he. sees me or could he kill me someday? But. no. and nobody answered and they didn't. try to break down the door. They didn't. do anything. They just took note and we. left. >> I'm so sorry. So, when Don and Jod were. were on the phone talking about, "Oh, you will do the photos." That was him. that they were talking to. >> Yes. What was what was the timeline of.

that and then when they were arrested. >> like a week. >> and they were trying to sell photos or. >> I don't know. >> Yeah. I don't know. I was reading his. file, Don Gordon, and they were saying. that when he was let out briefly on. parole, he had made friends with another. child molester in the hospital. >> That's another place. Yeah. >> And then went to a nudist camp together. afterwards after they were both released.

and competed to see how many children. they could molest. >> Wow. Years later, when I'm a new mom, out of the blue, Orange County contacts. me and asks me to testify on behalf of. Dawn's newest victim. Now, from 13 to. 23, I don't know if I was 23 or 24, but. that would be about 10 years. He only. got 10 years. It turns out he didn't. even serve 10 years. He only served like. five cuz probably good behavior. They're. always on good behavior when your chosen. victim isn't with you. They asked me to.

testify on behalf of his newest victim. ended up he pled and they said I didn't. have to. But that was a complete. re-triggering. >> I did end up going to court. >> Was he in the courtroom? >> Yeah. >> That was your first time seeing him. since. >> Since Yeah. >> What was that like? >> Um it was scary. I didn't ever want him. to see me again. That was the big thing, you know. So it took them weeks after. they asked me to do it um to tell me. that he um pled. And that's really.

really triggering. really activating. We. went to court anyway just to. have a completion process, I guess. I. just kind of hid behind my husband and. he looked over in our direction, but I. don't think he saw me or I don't know if. they used my name even. Maybe maybe I. knew at the time, but. but I don't think he would have been. expecting me to show up necessarily that.

time. So, there's a point where you move and. then you run into Jodie. >> Yeah, I actually ran into her once in. Riverside and I did ask her, "Are you. still molesting children. when I'm pissed?" Thanking Clara, no, you know, by that time I've been. training in martial arts. Come on, Jody. I'm an adult now. Now what? You know, that's how I felt. But she's like, "Oh, Lisa." And then whatever. >> She just said, "Oh, Lisa.". >> Yeah. like you're just asking her a.

normal question. >> Yeah. Like silly you. Um then later we move from Riverside and. we're living in Apple Valley. The day. after we move into Apple Valley, I see. her at the grocery store in the grocery. store parking lot. >> Did she see you? Did you say anything. this time? >> No. So like I'm flipped out. I have my. toddler in the back seat and I just park. more strategically and I wait. I'm gonna. follow her cuz like is she my neighbor?

Did I just move in where she's next to. me or something? >> You have kids now? >> Yeah, she lost me. I don't think she. knew I was following her, but I don't. know the streets. I couldn't keep up. with her. But I had heard about Megan's. Law, so I asked my friend to go with me. And at the time, Megan's Law did not. give address, only zip code. And you had. to go to the sheriff's. >> Oh. >> So I went there. I said, "Jod Jones, Jodie Gordon." What? Because they got. married after they got busted for me.

You can't testify against your spouse. >> That's crazy. >> They I thought they were married before. They got married. >> basically in jail. >> Yeah. How How do they even get to do. that anyway? >> Yeah. It's crazy. >> They can do all kinds of things, right? >> Yeah. So that they wouldn't have to. testify against each other. Okay. Anyway, the lady at the Megan Law. Sheriff's Station um said, "No, I don't. I don't see her." I said, "But she's. supposed to, but when I was a child, I.

was molested by her and Don Gordon." And. she's like, "Well, let's look up him.". Donald Lee Gordon. It wouldn't come up. Don Gordon. And she's like kind of. looked at me and she's like, "Where did. you just move from?" Atlanta. There's a. lot of kids. >> Yeah. And so this lady's like, "Okay, well, I'll get his pearl officer to. contact you." So we meet up. He got mad. at me that I lived in the high desert. and didn't tell them. But he's not.

supposed to be within 25 mi of a victim. >> But they don't even alert you. They just. expect you to constantly alert. >> Well, I don't I mean, I think it's it's. supposed to be different now. And maybe. it was supposed to be different then, but nobody ever told me any anything at. all ever that I should let them know. where I live or that they're going to. tell me when he gets out. Like that's. supposed to be part of victim's rights. now. >> But he was kind of a jerk. But at the. time, I'm like sort of freaked out. because I still think about the.

photographer a bit. And Dawn, I have. little kids. And so I asked the pearl. officer, "Can you please just search him. just on the off chance?". >> Yeah. >> Less than 1%. Okay. Maybe it's less than. 1%. But that Dawn knows I'm in Atlanta. or was in Atlanta or what I look like. now or what my kids look like if he has. a picture. >> Yeah. >> You know, and I feel like I must sound. crazy when I'm asking him, >> but I asked him. He can search him. anytime, anytime he wants. And he said,

"Okay, I will." Um, but a couple I don't. know, a week, two weeks go by, I don't. hear anything. So, I ask him and he. said, "No, I didn't search him.". And I always think, man, he should have. just lied to me and said, "Yeah, I. didn't find anything, but I don't. recommend lying." But he just like, "No, I didn't." And I'm getting more and more. upset. I'm crying. I'm like, "But you. said, and I just wanted the off chance.

just in case. I just wanted some relief. and you know he's just a jerk. And so I. said, "Well, I want to speak to your. supervisor.". And then I give the supervisor the story. and he says, "You know, you really need. therapy.". Yeah, I appreciate your shocked. reaction. Yeah, I wanted to say no. Really? Like, but also how. condescending, right?

So, all those negative interactions are. happening and then um some angel police. officer cuz I probably got on the phone. and I was calling around gives me Jod's. address. At the time I was going to. school to be a therapist, >> right? I went to school over many years, one class at a time. She was she lived. near the college, so they weren't she. wasn't living where he was in Atlanta. But not only did Jod live by the. college, but I would run into I I. literally ran into her in the doctor's.

office. At this time, I didn't go up to. her anytime. And I had my kids and you. know, she in the doctor's office was. with an old person. She was an inhome. healthc care aid and you're not supposed. to do that as a registered offender. But. I also ran into her in Walmart. And so. anyway, the Victorville Police. Department said, "Okay, we're going to. go and check on her." And I said, "She. is supposed to be a registered offender.

and she wasn't just in the kitchen. baking cookies. She was very involved. and she should have had a second strike. with that victim that I was to testify. against in my 20s and in California at. the time. I don't know now, but would. have had a third strike not being a. registered offender.". >> Yeah. But they they tell me, "No, she. didn't realize she was supposed to be a. registered offender.". >> She didn't realize that that's. >> or she forgot or Yeah. I'm like, "No, no.".

>> So, you were going to school to be a. therapist. >> What was the reason for your decision? Is it to help yourself, help someone. else? >> Yeah, I mean both. Like I did start, you. know, when I got really bad postpartum. depression and all my trauma. came out and I started to go to therapy. out of desperation. I became clean and. sober cuz I I spent my whole childhood. drinking, smoking, methamphetamines and. stuff. And at 18, I got clean. But then.

I started to crave again when all the. trauma started to come out. And I'm. like, so I started doing 12 steps and. then I I went to therapy. I I got. actually got in as abuse recovery group. which was very helpful and I realized I. wanted to be a therapist but also like I. knew in my heart like I didn't want to. do what the molesters wanted. It didn't. feel right but I didn't have the words. to explain it. I didn't have the. science, you know, like I needed to.

unindoctrinate myself from all of that. And gratefully it was never a temptation. of me to be a molester. Um, I had a. natural instinct to protect, you know, but I didn't know how to explain why. they were wrong. I definitely went for that to find. really the best way to heal, the. fastest, bestest way to heal. In the. process though, I'm always kind of like. arguing with God cuz I felt like go be a.

therapist, Lisa. I'm like, but no, I. can't. You know, like you have the wrong. person. I used to have such bad anxiety. I couldn't even look people in the eye. >> Oh, that was me. I had to have such a. hard time. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> Martial arts helped a lot with that. But. um actually it's one of the top trauma. treatments. >> Really? Martial arts. >> Yeah. And um Judith Herman wrote trauma. and recovery and she talks about it and. I just listened to Gabbor Mate talk. about it too or somebody else. But um.

one reason is like you are now in charge. of the violent situation and you're. you're rewiring your nervous system. basically. I guess that's the other. reason too. You're you're rewiring your. nervous system. But also you gain some. confidence like well maybe I could take. care of someone. Some people maybe not. everyone but if that person. >> But I grew up fighting. >> Yeah. getting beaten up on and my brother. would tell me to beat up this person or. >> there was always like a fight and so in.

my brain it's like always going to come. down to a fight. I had to remind myself. it won't necessarily but it's always. there. >> like it's going to come down to a fight. if people. >> Going back a little bit I know in your. previous interview that you've done. before you were saying how there was a. time where you thought that maybe you. would take care of Jod yourself when you. saw her. >> Yeah. So, so martial arts did help me. feel like I was probably too confident,

but you know, I was young in my 20s. I. had all this rage. I learned that all. this depression and irritability, which. nobody named it PTSD at the time, but I. was always like, is it PTSD? Yeah. But, um, I, you know, anger or. anger turned inwards is depression. And you got to put the anger and the. feelings where they belong. That doesn't. mean you confront people or it doesn't. mean you beat them up or anything. You. can journal it out. You can visualize.

it, right? Anyway, when I started to. feel depressed, I just assumed I guess. I'm feeling angry. And and so Jodie, Don, whoever, my parents journal. I. journal, journal, journal. I didn't want. to. Nobody ever wants to at first. No, none of my client not none of them. But. a lot of people don't want to journal. But it's like it's really helpful if you. can't do anything else. What happened. with Jodie is she did have to register. as aender though. >> Okay.

>> Okay. So then now she's on Megan's law. >> but I still am running into her. My. emotional state was questionable at. times and I would feel you know the. PTSD, depression, rage and so I thought. you know let me just take care of it. I. actually called my husband once like. circling Jod's house like I could um. just take her out cuz she's going to. reoffend. I told the Victorville police. she's going to she'll do it on her own. without Don. And they're just like.

whatever. So I imagined that I could. kill her a couple different ways, you. know, and that I'm no good anyway. I'm. screwed up. You know, what do I think. I'm doing being a therapist? I'm not a. good mom. I'm not a good wife. like let. me just kill her and then you guys you. can move on you know I'll be in prison. and you know because. I just lose my mind half the time with. the situation but um I didn't you know.

thou shalt not kill right. um but I did indulge in some fantasies a. few times killing her my dad my mom or. torturing him or whatever and I'm Not. saying that's totally unhealthy. Like. there can be a healthy element to that, you know, don't act on it. Don't follow. through necessarily, right? Necessarily. You shouldn't kill people. Okay. But um.

anyway, the feelings need to go where. they belong. And so I'm glad I didn't act on it, but. um she did reaffend. >> Yeah. I found out on Megan's law. So, it. was while she was in the high desert. I. forget the exact name of the charge, but. with a teen. So, then I tried to call. cuz I'm pissed a lot, right? And I'm. just going to call people. They didn't. call back, of course. But I said, "Huh,

she reaffended. Look at that." But I. could check on Megan. And then she. disappeared from Megan. >> How? >> Well, first I'm like, "She's from. Illinois. Let me see.". >> Yeah. She was in Illinois and her. charges were lower. I called them and I. said, "She's high-risisk, just so you. know." Oh, the lady was nice. Oh, I. really appreciate you letting me know. I'll do what I can. But nothing was ever. done. But then she disappears off. Megan's law again. And another.

perpetrator, another case, Glenn Low, that in my teenage years I also that was. a situation was on Megan's law. Glenn, Dawn, and Jod. It gave me a certain. sense of some control. Like, I know. where they lived. I'm not going to move. next to them, >> right? >> But Glenn and Jod got off Megan's law. >> A loophole. They might have to register. I don't know, though. Why would I know? Why would anybody tell me anything? But. they won't show up on the public. registry. I've heard people say, "That.

poor guy, he was only urinating in. public and got on Megan's law." No. No. It's really hard to prosecute anybody. for any offenses. It's so many. perpetrators get off scot-free. I would. be shocked if anybody's on Megan's Law. cuz they were urinated in public. Those. are stories people tell. >> Did you confront your dad about any of. this? >> I did. Yeah. Back in my 20s, um I realized, okay, he.

didn't protect me. So anyway, I'm just trying to confront. anyone I could. So I told him about. John, which he, you know, told me don't. make a big deal, right? But um whatever. This happened. This happened. This. happened. This happened. This happened. This happened. And he said, "You had. quite an extensive sex life.". I'm just like standing there. And then. he said, "And children under the age of. three don't remember.".

So for me, like we talked about memory. I have some memories and I'm not so. sure. A little I don't know. It's in. that category of I don't know. I can't. say, but I'll heal it anyway. I'll do. inner child work. I'll have compassion. for that part. I'll trust my body, right? But I don't know for sure. But so. when he said that, it's like, what. is he confessing? Anyway, I wouldn't put. it past him that he did something to me.

and my siblings when we were little. He. molested my brother. Um, and another. high school teacher at the same high. school got busted for molesting. At the. time, I know it seems silly thinking. back now, but unindoctrinating myself. and seeing my parents for who they. really are took a took a long time. I. called my dad when this Mr. just left my brain. Anyway, he was a.

drama teacher at Ramona. Got busted. It. was in the newspaper. I said, "Dad, Mr. got busted for molesting. a boy." You know, like outraged. >> Yeah. >> My dad said, like he's mad at the system. He said, "Every boy, every teenage boy is going. to get masturbated sometime. What men do. with young men sort of thing. Like it's. totally fine and normal." My dad would. say very bizarre things to me throughout. my adulthood. And um I didn't leave my.

children alone with him ever. And. eventually I did cut off the. relationship. But when um my dad was in a relationship. with a man Jot um Indonesian guy and he. was really nice. and I was always like why is it with my. dad? But anyway um when Jot died um he. had diabetes like type one. My dad was. heartbroken. My husband and I went into. LA and cleaned out his apartment.

Actually read the eulogy for my dad cuz. he couldn't do it. And it was all gay. men and Buddhist monks. And but what we. found in his apartment was file. material. Somebody said, "Don't say Nambla, but. Nambla, North American Manboy Love. Association.". Um, apparently they're they're still. going strong and very um retaliatory, but there was that material in the.

apartment and also like a daddy son. magazine or I looked at it and it's all. about weird fantasies of. >> Yeah. File material. >> So, do you believe Jaw was also part of. >> Yes. I mean, I don't know. I' I'd like. to think not, but he was doing something. weird with my dad. I don't know if he. was file, you know. They were super. super concerned if we were circumcising.

our son or not. Yeah, >> that's a very strange. >> Oh, because um it'll reduce pleasure or. something like according to them. And. that would be like the worst thing we. could do. >> Is your dad still alive? >> No. >> Okay. And I know that you said that you. were very triggered when your mom. passed. Did you ever get to confront her. or No, >> I did actually. >> So, I know this is hard to hear. Okay. Um, but going back to Larry, Larry, that.

that memory that I don't remember so. well going in with my mom and Larry. And. then the end, the end was I had a. vibrator. >> Larry gave me my mom whatever. So when I. confronted my mom, I was in the backyard. and again I'm sort of like I don't care. who hears. I was in it and I said, "Mom, why why did you let Larry give me a.

vibrator at 5?" And she's like, "Sh, you. know, like the neighbors were out and I. I just got louder." But that's really it. other than. um there was always my mom was always. kicking me out even as a little girl and. give me my baby book, get out, you're. not my daughter anymore. Like always. that sort of thing. And as an adult too, okay, you're no longer my daughter. Blah. blah blah. All these letters and um it. was just like exhausting. Yeah. >> You know, and I was trying to be a good.

Christian. I didn't know what the right. thing to do was. and you honor your. mother and father. What does that mean? And but my family needs to come first. It's always a trigger. So, I did end up. cutting off the relationship with her. finally. >> I mean, obviously, I'm very naive, I. guess, but like there was no before both. of them passed, there was no I mean, you're their daughter. There was no. apology. There was no. >> never. The last words my dad said to me.

was that I was an. But on my mom's deathbed, I did go visit. her and I visited my dad. Ironically, they couldn't speak. Also, I didn't I. didn't say anything mean. Being a. therapist, do you feel like there are. certain situations or patients that. trigger you and that you would. >> recommend or refer to a different. therapist or has it almost been like a. dual healing process?

Well, it is healing for me to always. reiterate self-regulation, inner child. work, like it's always being, you know, like reminding myself, >> but I don't really get trick. I mean, I. can't say not at all. Uh, I definitely. can relate to a lot of clients. I. couldn't see a predator. Um, it's really. never come across. I've never had that. opportunity. Maybe in mental health, like community mental health. I may have. seen a offender and not known it,

>> but I would not choose or put myself out. there as a offender therapist. >> Have you tried to reconnect or look up. where Raymond is at since then? >> Well, so Raymond left my mom when I was. 12 cuz he couldn't deal with her. anymore, but we reconnected in. adulthood. >> What? >> Yeah. I have pictures of him with my. sons. >> Yeah. Did you like look him up and. >> I think my sister kept in touch somehow. with him. >> Wow. >> And then I don't remember the initial me.

getting involved but he lived in one of. the times in Compton. >> Uhhuh. >> That was the whole story. But um we went. and saw him there and then in Long Beach. he lived and then he came and stayed. with us in Apple Valley for a while. And. my kids see him as the best grandparent. for sure. Um, >> is he still around? >> No, he did pass away, too, but he was he. was in his 80s. A.

>> Yeah. >> Okay. >> And so he still call me Vanilla and. Sugar and um my kids call him Chocolate. Grandpa. >> That's so cute. >> You wrote a book. When did you start. writing it? >> Well, I felt like from early on I should. write a book, but I was like, why do I. feel that way? You know, maybe it just. maybe am I seek attention seeking? >> Yeah, maybe it's healing, right? >> But yeah, >> journaling, the journaling turned to the. idea of a book like I'll make this a. book someday. Um, but then I got to the.

point where like, you know, I think it. was for my own healing. But then the. feeling kept coming back, write a book, right? So, I was trying, but ADHD andor just I'm not a natural. writer. I don't know. I didn't get it. I. know I have a master's degree, but I. didn't get a good high school education. I failed out of junior high in high. school. I did not earn my diploma, but. I'm glad they gave it to me. I found a. coach editor that has been helping me. write and I've just been refining it.

>> But you are looking to hopefully release. it cuz I know a lot of people say when. they read about other survivors. experiences, it's they feel less alone. and maybe they haven't gone through the. process of talking to someone about it. So. >> yeah, I did that a lot too. >> Oh, you did? >> Yeah. I read a lot of memoirs and stuff. and I did feel validated and you know. curious and also in my memoir it's also. a narrative non-fiction where I'm. incorporating a therapist's voice.

>> Oh that's very cool. Okay. So it's. >> a little Lisa. >> telling her what she needed to know. It's a that's a big part of healing. getting in touch with your inner child. >> you know and rescuing them. >> Okay. So, as people are reading it, it's. like they can also feel and see the. steps to healing maybe more clearly. Is. that. >> some of it? Yeah. Like I'm I'm going to. have to write another book too cuz I was. trying to write like two books at once. But yeah, it's informational,

>> you know, cuz it's really important for. people to understand what consent is and. that you can't consent when your brain. isn't fully developed. You could be an. Einstein genius child, but you still. can't consent because emotional. development and all of that is different. from IQ. >> Do we have uh any time frame or just any. range? >> Possibly January. >> Okay. They're going to set alerts. They're going to be emailing you. >> Okay. Yeah. And I will definitely put it.

on social media on my website and all my. other social media. Um, I'm just not. sure which publisher yet, right? And I'm. doing some final touches. >> Another thing that really helped me. thinking about the protective factors. people. um whatever good you can inject in a. child's life doesn't have to be about. abuse and trauma, but like help children. dream and believe that they can do what. they want to do, whatever that is, and.

like there's good things to come. And I. always held on to hope that there was. something good to come and that even. when I the depression and everything hit. me, believing the therapist like you'll. get through it. Um there's good to come. always having something positive to. focus on. Not toxic positivity, allowing. people to express and heal and get into. that rage and feel it all and do what.

you need to do, but know that you'll. come out of it. And keep a visualization. of yourself where you want to be, what. that feels like, what that looks like. [Music].