Lindsay Clancy & the 13 Medications Prescribed to Her: 48 Hours of No Sleep After New Med

Bada bing, bada boom. >> If you ever find the urge to occupy. yourself entirely with learning about. the directionality of strollers and the. stroller wheels, is it an all-wheel baby. stroller? There is dense literature to. be read on Reddit forums about parenting. and baby strollers. You will come out. more educated on strollers and stroller. wheels, but also equally confused on. which exact stroller you should get for. your new baby. But that is the surface. level content on these parenting forums.

It does in fact get much deeper because. you could always stumble upon a post. asking, "Is it normal to hear cries that. aren't really there in the middle of the. night?" Like phantom cries. They used to. call it insanity of lactation. Postpartum psychosis is not like a new. modern-day language. It's not a. modern-day thing. Back in the day, they. said it was insanity of lactation. Postpartum psychosis, however, I will. say, is not the same thing as postpartum. depression. Postpartum depression is.

quite common. One in eight people who. give birth experience [music] it. While. postpartum psychosis, it's pretty rare. About one to two people per 1,000. births. [music] And that's kind of a. distinction that's been lost in this. case where maybe hopefully very. well-intended commentators out there of. other mothers or other parents who are. saying things like, "Well, I had. postpartum depression really bad and I. would never harm my children." I don't. know if it's necessarily helpful or. productive or perhaps even accurate.

input at this point. Postpartum. depression and postpartum psychosis are. completely different beasts. [music]. Just very different. If you take the. word postpartum out of it, it's like. someone with depression saying that they. never heard a voice that wasn't ever. there. It's like, okay, well, that makes. sense. [music] And one would also. imagine because they're so different. that no one could ever mistake. postpartum psychosis as postpartum. depression, but that's not the case. because people with postpartum psychosis. also do have symptoms of postpartum. depression. And from the outside, it.

could look like they just have. postpartum depression, but the psychotic. part is usually intermittent and hidden. Hidden meaning it only presents itself. for perhaps a small window. [music]. Patients can have prolonged lucid. periods where they are not really in a. state of psychosis. And to I mean, what. are the odds that that times up when. when you see a provider, when you're. talking to your therapist or your. psychiatrist? There's also no standardized tool to. capture postpartum psychosis. There's. standardized tools to capture postpartum.

anxiety and depression, but not. psychosis. One person on Reddit years. ago writes, "I spent a lot of time. scouring the internet for PPP, postpartum psychosis stories that match. my own. I don't fall into the category. of the most typical presentation of it.". So, a lot of times people will. hallucinate that there's a lot of like. religious hallucinations that the devil. is coming for their baby. One mom wrote, "They believed that their husband was. the second coming of Christ, and the.

only way for that prophecy to be. fulfilled was if their child died. But. it would be okay because the husband. would bring the child back.". >> And then they were saying like a lot of. the things that they were seeing online. just kind of fed into this like second. coming narrative. Now, some of these. people are not even that religious. before they entered into postpartum. psychosis. But she says, "I didn't. hallucinate that the devil was coming. for my baby. I didn't even hallucinate.

that my husband wanted to kidnap him, which is another common thing. It's like. someone wants to kidnap your baby and. you're the only one that can protect. them." She says, "It was more subtle, like something growing in my lungs. I. knew I couldn't breathe as easily, but I. adapted as I went because I couldn't. quite identify what was wrong. I lost. myself. I fell into a deep depression. She says once that depression hit, the. intrusive like weird thoughts started. coming. She says it started off just as.

thoughts. Intrusive scary thoughts. So, this is where it gets even more. confusing. When she says that she falls. into a deep depression, when she sees a. psychiatrist, that could present itself. clinically as just postpartum. depression. Then she starts having. intrusive thoughts. There's also. something called postpartum OCD. where it is someone who just gave birth. and a lot of these people, they have a. hard time even coming to providers for. it because they're scared their baby's. going to be taken away.

>> There is one woman who says that she had. to every time she went up and down the. stairs, she had to sit on her butt and. scoot from one step at a time because. she had this intrusive visual that she. would chuck her baby down the stairs. She didn't want to chuck her baby down. the stairs, but she's almost like, "Why. do I keep thinking this thought unless I. secretly must want it?" Which is. actually a huge thing with people who. have regular OCD, not postpartum OCD. They think their intrusive thoughts are. some sort of reflection of their deepest. wants and desires. But she, that was her. postpartum version of it.

>> So, she's like, "If I don't want to. actually chuck my baby down the stairs, why do I keep thinking about chucking my. baby down the stairs?". There's also a lot of people with. postpartum OCD that are too scared to. report this to their providers, but they. say that they couldn't even change their. kids' diapers because they kept having. an intrusive thought of essaying their. own child. And they would never, but. that is literally what OCD is. I know a. lot of people online think OCD is like, I got to tap my foot five times. I got. to make sure the stove is off six times. But a lot of OCD are just like really.

intrusive thoughts that are compulsion. You can't stop it. So she goes from. feeling depressed to all these intrusive. thoughts and she thought it was nothing. more than that. But then they started. growing. So she moves out of the. intrusive thoughts. She says while. playing peekab-boo I would leave the. blanket over his face just a little. longer than necessary. I would think. more and more about how if I couldn't. even take care of him, no one else could. either. I dangerously kept quiet about. all these thoughts. I previously had.

passive thoughts wishing I would get hit. by a car and require hospitalization. just so I could escape. I needed to. escape this never-ending cycle of sleep. deprivation, crying from me and the. baby, and isolation. But those thoughts. eventually turned into plans of how I. could self-exit. I weighed my options. I. I mean, I clearly wasn't right. I. couldn't put it into any other words. I. felt wrong. I felt broken. But I didn't. know how to articulate it or ask for. help. If I was honest, I was really. scared that someone would take my baby. away from me. But then things got worse.

and they got worse really fast. She does. ask for help. She gets put on Zoloft. [music] and it doesn't matter because a. month later she's taken to a psychiatric. hospital for a week after a self-exit. attempt. And from reading one too many. forums about postpartum psychosis, a lot. of people who have experienced it say. they presented primarily with symptoms. of depression and anxiety. and the. people around them saw symptoms of. depression and anxiety. Now, that's not. to say that having postpartum psychosis.

makes one harm their child. Nor does it. mean that Lindsay Clancy herself had. postpartum psychosis. All this means is. there's a big debate and this debate is. not black and white. And this debate is. not, oh, take her blood, see if she has. something in her system. It's a huge. debate of did she or [music] did she not. have postpartum psychosis and that. question is going to be life in prison. or not and it's going to play a very big. role in [music] her trial and her. potential new upcoming trial if there is.

one. This is the case of Lindsay [music]. Clancy. We would like to thank today's sponsors. who have made it possible for Rotten. Mango to support postpartum support.

international. Their mission is. dedicated to promoting awareness, prevention, and treatment of mental. health issues related to childbearing in. every country worldwide. This episode's. partnerships have also made it possible. to support Rotteno's team of dedicated. researchers. And we'd also like to thank. you guys for your continued support. As. always, full show notes are available at. rotteningopodcast.com. This case has a lot of heavy themes of. mental health conditions like. postpartum, depression, psychosis, bipolar disorder. However, the details. of this case are not representative of.

these particular diagnoses and no. generalization should be made from this. case about those conditions. There are. mentions of taking one's life as well as. the lives of others, particularly. children and infants. We may mention. various opinions, speculations, comments, all from the public about this. case and those involved. These are not. representative of our own or are they. legally confirmed. Everything available. for this case that we pulled from is. public information. So, keep that in. mind. And statements, quotes may be. summarized, condensed, or shortened for.

brevity. This is going to be a. multi-part series. There's a lot of. ground to cover. And before we even get. into the whole Patrick Clancy and Rachel. Dannis's 60 Minutes interview, which is. going to be in the next part, before we. get into all of that, I feel like there. is some necessary groundwork that needs. to be laid for the legal aspect of this. case, the postpartum psychosis debate, as well as all of the medications that. Lindsay Clancy was on at the time, and. all of the ways that her prescribers are.

either under fire or are being praised. by people online of whether or not they. helped or failed Lindsay. There's just. so much before we can even get into. Patrick that we're all going to cover in. this episode right now. So, with that. being said, watch with discretion. Take. care and let's get into it. It's not. impossible to be depressed at a wedding, but hopefully it's not your wedding that. you're depressed at. [music] September. 17th, 2022. This is 4 months before the. Clancy children are killed. Their.

parents, Lindsay and Patrick Clancy, are. in New Hampshire. So, they're from. Massachusetts, but they're in New. Hampshire for a friend's wedding. Their. family members are helping take care of. the two older children, Kora and Dawson, and they brought along the 4-month-old. newborn, Ken, with them. And they're. walking downtown in New Hampshire, and. Patrick recalls Lindsay telling him, "I. think I'm going to start taking Zoloft.". Zoloft is a very common SSRI. It's an. anti-depressant. and he says that. Lindsay told him, "I think it's really.

going to help with anxiety and with. going back to work." From the statements. made by Patrick, it appears like this is. the first time Lindsay ever brought up. Zoloft, or at least in this time frame. since Ken was born. To the point where. he was even wondering like, "Where are. you going to get the Zoloft? What are. you talking about?" Right? He didn't. know that by this point when she's. talking to him about Zoloft, she already. had the prescription for Zoloft. She got. it 2 days before. But the conversation. stands. She hasn't [music] started. taking the Zoloft. So technically she is.

informing him, I think I'm going to. start taking Zoloft and she [music]. does. Lindsay Clancy starts taking. Zoloft about 4 and 1/2 months after. giving birth to their third child, Kalen. Clancy. Patrick says he doesn't know the. exact time frame that she was on the. Zoloft, [music]. but she just kept getting worse and. worse. There is something called the GAD. test. It's the generalized anxiety test. It's got a list of questions for. patients to answer. It's pretty. straightforward, very easy questions. Do.

you feel anxious? Do you feel anxious a. few times a week, several times a week, most days of the week? It's not a very. thorough test. I mean, it's it's a. screener. So, do you feel restless? Questions like that. And then it spits. out this random numerical score and it's. just a screening tool. It's not a. diagnostic tool for feeling nervous, anxious, on edge. Lindsay responds that. she feels that nearly every single day. for not being able to stop or control. the worrying. She feels that nearly. every single day. One of Lindsay's. providers later says she was.

significantly high in the GAD7, which is. for generalized anxiety. She scored uh. 21 out of 21, which I mean, they're just. screening, so it's not diagnostic, but. it did indicate that she was. experiencing some extreme anxiety. Now, I was on Reddit and I was like pulling. from even my own personal experiences of. taking the GAD7 test a few times. I've. yet to see many people on even Reddit. hitting the 2021 mark out of 21. >> Even at like the peak worst I've ever. been in was like 17. And that seems to.

be on par with a lot of Redditors. >> is like a lot of people seem to hit 14. 13 from what I can tell and then 17 18. is like okay things are not great but. like I could not find many people who. were hitting 21 out of 21. So hitting. the ceiling of this GAD7 test I would. imagine is incredibly concerning. So two. days before Lindsay tells Patrick at the. wedding that she wants to get on Zoloft, she is meeting with a psychiatrist, Dr. Jennifer [music] Tus. So I'm just.

going to give you a quick timeline. September 12th, 2022, Lindsay finds Dr. Tus online and schedules an appointment. This is really important. So Lindsay. looks up [music] doctors and she finds. Dr. Tus. I'm assuming that she goes on. her website, sees, you know, everything. that she's advertising on her page of. the things that she specializes in, and. then books an appointment with Dr. Tus. [music]. >> Online appointment, right? >> Yeah, it's a tellahalth appointment. September 15th, Lindsay has her first. tellaalth appointment with Tus. And then. September 17th, Lindsay tells Patrick.

she might [music] want to start Zoloft. Now, she was already prescribed it. September 15th, 2 days before. But back. to this very first meeting, [music]. Lindsay reports to Dr. Tus that she. feels okay. I mean, okay, right? Dr. Tus. takes notes that Lindsay appeared a. little bit anxious, which makes sense. considering that seems to be Lindsay's. biggest concern for this appointment is. she just seems to have a lot of anxiety. She just gave birth to their third child. in May of 2022. It's now September, so.

only about like 4 months. Lindsay is not. feeling well. This is peak postpartum. period. A lot of people say it's about a. year. Some people will go as far to say. it lasts two years is the postpartum. period where you got to look out for. postpartum depression and psychosis. But. Dr. Tus prescribes Zoloft. And Lindsay. is really hesitant about this because. she remembers that she was prescribed. Zoloft when she gave birth to her second. child Dawson. And she just had concerns. about breastfeeding while taking the. Zoloft. I will say that Zoloft is.

probably one of the safest medications. to breastfeed on, but I think everybody. has different standards for safety when. it comes to their own children. And that. seems to be what applies here. She seems. very hesitant, but yet still kind of. open to the idea. She even brought it up. to Patrick. And eventually 2 weeks. later, she starts taking the Zoloft. So. she doesn't take it in September. She. gets prescribed it September 15th. She. doesn't take it until like mid October. So actually more than two weeks, >> a month. >> Yeah.

>> The original dose was 25 millig and then. it gets increased to 50 millig cuz it's. how it works. You ramp up. >> and this is not an abnormal dosage for. Zoloft. This is nothing concerning in. terms of the dose. And once Lindsay hits. that 50 milligram dose, Lindsay [music]. hates it. She reports that she has such. severe insomnia. She was awake for 48. hours. She had racing thoughts,

worsening anxiety, which is like the. whole point that she's going on Zoloft. This is just miserable. So, she tells. this to Dr. Tus and they stop the. Zoloft. There is a huge very probably. meaningful conversation about Lindsay's. reaction to Zoloft. A big bold preface. here is Zoloft is the brand name. The. drug is Cetrilene. Cetriline does not. create bipolar disorder. Okay. >> But there is an argument that if you. take Zoloft or similar SSRIs, it can.

push someone who already has an. underlying bipolar disorder out of. depression and straight past what they. describe as normal and into a state of. hypomomania. Some psychiatrists call it. the anti-depressant induced mania. And. there are lots of anecdotal stories of. people saying like, "Hey, I didn't even. know that I was bipolar until I was. prescribed Zoloft because I went into my. psychiatrist and I was showing symptoms. of being depressed." So, they thought.

that I had major depression. Then I took. Zoloft, then I took all these other. SSRIs and I went into a state of mania. And that's when they're like, "Oh, so. actually your diagnosis is not major. depression. Your diagnosis is bipolar. disorder." Typically, bipolar disorder. 2, right? The FDA has straight up stated. in patients with bipolar disorder, treating a depressive episode with. Zoloft or any other anti-depressant may. precipitate a mixed manic episode. The. FDA instructs prescribers to quote,

"Screen patients for any person or. family history of bipolar disorder, mania, or hypomomania, which hypomomania is similar to mania, but instead of the duration being like 7. days and needing to be hospitalized, it's at least four consecutive days of. very hyperactivity.". and hypomomania. The scary thing for a. lot of people is that from the outside. it could appear that you're functioning. completely normally when you are in a. state of mania. So from the outside. perspective, you actually seem like you.

are functioning better than most people. You might even be more productive. You. get 4 hours of sleep, you're talking. fast, you start three new projects, you're running on some sort of high in. life. You have this very sure feeling. that you can take on everything, but. also your attention span is kind of. shot. So, you're switching between tasks. non-stop, but somehow you feel upbeat. You got high energy levels even if. you're not sleeping as [music] much. >> But what happened after that period? >> Usually, it is a very depressed state,

>> right? Okay. >> Yeah. And it's very dangerous because. there is really, it doesn't appear that. there's a strong guideline for how long. these manic states last. And there's. different types of mania. And different. types of mania can be scary. For [music]. one, it's hard for a lot of providers to. identify that you're manic when you're. in certain man states of mania. And then. two, it creates like the perfect tornado. to usually that could lead to self-exit.

One person says the same thing happened. to them when they took Zoloft. They said. it triggered a hypomomanic episode at. the time. And I just thought, "Wow, these anti-depressants work really well. for me." And then my psychiatrist. switched my misdiagnosis from major. depression to bipolar 2. There's this. one post on the OCD subreddit that. reads, "I just took Zolaf last night. What the [ __ ] is going on? I woke up at. 3:00 a.m. and I'm wired. Like, I feel. incredible." Everyone talks about how.

SSRIs take forever to kick in. I feel so. [ __ ] good. I could probably do. anything right now. like I feel I'm kind. of jittery and I have so much going on. right now. To which all the comments are. all warning the OP to tell their. psychiatrist because it sounds like. they're having SSRI activating mania. Making things even trickier is that it. appears a lot of people will prescribe. Zoloft for those struggling with. depression. But uniolar depression, so. uniolar means someone that does not have. an underlying bipolar disorder. diagnosis. That means they just have.

major depression disorder, right? They. will react to the Zoloft vastly. differently from someone who has an. underlying bipolar disorder. But the. front-facing symptoms, like the clinical. assessment of both those people, they. all indicate depression. They look the. same. And to make things even more. complicated, the [music] postpartum. period has the highest risk window for. those with bipolar conditions. Many. women report having their very first. bipolar episode after childirth. And.

while postpartum psychosis is really, really rare, it's less rare for people. with bipolar disorder versus those. without. So, one statistic says the risk. of postpartum psychosis for those with. bipolar disorder is no longer like one. in two out of a thousand births, but. it's closer to 17 to 50%. >> Wow. [music]. >> And again, just because someone has. postpartum psychosis does not mean that. they are danger to their children or. themselves. They definitely probably. need medical intervention, but that does. not mean that they're going to commit.

acts of violence. That's not what I'm. saying. But they are just higher risk. And now I will say the people with. bipolar disorder 1 are usually at much. higher risk than people with bipolar. disorder 2. Bipolar disorder 1, just to. really simplify it, is a more severe. version of bipolar disorder 2. And just. to reiterate, the conversation is that. certain SSRIs can accelerate a diagnosis. for bipolar disorder. That does not mean. it causes it. That person typically has. the underlying condition that was never.

diagnosed before. Also, there are a lot. of people who have bipolar disorder and. do really well on SSRIs. I believe they. are not the only medication that they. take typically, but they do well on. SSRIs. And this should go without. saying, but just in case, having bipolar. disorder does not make one violent or. more likely to harm others. Like most. conditions of the mind, I believe, it is. the most damaging to the individual with. them rather than those around them or. society at large, which it is 2026. We. get it. But like just in case, I have to. throw that in there. The reason that.

we're going so indepth on a potential. bipolar disorder 2 diagnosis for Lindsay. is because that's a huge part of the. debate just during trial, during. everything. So, at first glance, it. seems like this case is about postpartum. psychosis, and that's the only debate. Did she have it or not? But the. underlying debate for that is whether or. not she was showing signs of bipolar. disorder, whether or not her providers. did not pick up on it and did not treat. it, which ultimately pushed her into a. state of postpartum psychosis. Bipolar.

disorder does become a very big topic of. conversation. And again, just because it. is being debated that Lindsay's usage of. Zoloft could have activated a manic. response does not mean SSRIs have this. impact on anyone that's bipolar or not. bipolar. And also SSRIs are known to. have saved millions of people. So this. is not some sort of fear-mongering of. SSRIs. And just because it's being. debated that Lindsay could or could not. be bipolar does not mean that her being. bipolar is what caused the incident. Nor.

does it mean that anyone with bipolar. disorder becomes more dangerous to. family members or children. Or does it. mean that she should be found guilty or. not guilty or not guilty by reason of. insanity. I'm just giving you a lot of. context. In October, October 24th, 2022. to be exact, Lindsay writes in her. iPhone notes affirmations, I am strong. I am brave. I will get through this. I. will overcome postpartum anxiety and. depression. I'm a great mom. I love my. kids. I love my family. I love my life.

I am happy. I take care of myself. Then. she has a section titled gratitude. My. mom for being there for me no matter. what and coming to help at the drop of a. hat. My husband for picking up the slack. when I've been feeling so down. My. husband for taking the big kids out to. do things when I felt like I can't. The. knowledge of how I can turn things. around naturally. The space in my house. to do this routine. So this is around. the time that she starts taking the. Zoloft. >> Start. Oh, mid October I see.

>> Yeah. So around the time of Zoloft, Dr. Tus does give her reasoning for why. Zoloft because that's a huge again topic. of the conversation. And she says so. it's a first-line medication used for. treating anxiety disorders. It's also a. first-line treatment when women are. breastfeeding. It is the safest SSRI for. babies. Tus says that her initial. diagnosis of Lindsay is generalized. anxiety disorder and it was an. adjustment disorder with depressed mood. Dr. Tus prescribes the Zoloft. Like I.

said, first at 25, then ups it to 50. Lindsay post on a postpartum Facebook. page. It's called I am not alone. postpartum depression, anxiety, and rage. Facebook group. And she writes, "Looking. for advice, no medications for PPA/PD, postpartum anxiety, postpartum. depression. I tried Zoloft and after. taking it for a week and increasing it. to 50 milligs, I had extreme insomnia. and also felt like it was worsening my. depression and I had no appetite. whatsoever, so I had to stop taking it.

Has anyone had a similar experience and. found a different medication that. worked? Lindsay also reports this to Dr. Tus that she took the Zoloft, increased. her dosage, and she couldn't go to. sleep. Tus testified that Lindsay told. her that she felt awful. >> Um, she did have some stomach aches. She. had some diarrhea and had a a difficult. time eating. Um she also had increased. anxiety. Um she had some more depressed. feelings. Um she had um more difficulty.

sleeping. >> Tough's notes at the time read um that. she felt awful. She couldn't sleep. Um. had insomnia um which became worse when. she increased the dose. She didn't want. to eat. She was having diarrhea. Food um. felt really unappealing. She was more depressed on it, crying all. day yesterday. Um which is not normal.

for her. She had some mental fog and was. terrified to start something new. Anxiety was really bad even before. mediate. um overnight racing thoughts, paranoid. of getting suicidal thoughts, um. something bad happening, doesn't want to. be alone. >> Tus immediately tells her, "Stop taking. the Zoloft." Now, Zoloft and SSRIs are. typically a medication that you cannot.

stop cold turkey. You have to taper. down. But TUS does explain this dosage. was relatively low, so there was no need. to taper down off of it. And a lot of. physicians and a lot of psychiatrists. agree online, so stop the Zoloft. And. they meet again through Tellaalth 6 days. later, October 26th. And at that. meeting, Dr. Tu says Lindsay was feeling. back to how she was before the Zoloft, which is not great still, and that she. was considering a new medication. Around. that time, Lindsay writes in her iPhone.

notes, "I'm sad and depressed because. I'm not able to parent my third child. like my first. I want to treat any one. of my babies like my first, but I know. that's not a feasible possibility. I'm. sad that I stopped breastfeeding. I feel. not as connected with Cal now. I think I. sort of res upset my other children. because they prevent me from treating. Cal like my first baby. I know that's. not fair to them. I know that. I was. feeling so depressed last evening when. Cor and Dawson came home from school. I. know it rubs off on them. So, we had a. pretty rough evening. I want to feel.

love and connection with all my kids. I'm also probably having a bit of. internal conflict because my whole life. I wanted to have a lot of kids. I still. don't want Cal to be our last. But I. have a lot of figuring out what to do. before I have another. I'm on the fence. about starting a new medication for. anxiety and depression. I just want to. feel happy. I just want to be able to. relax and take care of my kids. And when. they go to bed at night, I want to. deeply relax and hang out with Pat and. then fall asleep into a deep sleep for 8. hours, get up and pour hard into myself. for an hour and a half. Callen was so.

very planned and desired. I want to be. able to give him all the love he. deserves. I guess that's what it's like. to be the third child, though. He's not. the first third child to exist. I think. I know he'll be okay, but it's really. hard for me. I hate that he has to put. himself to sleep. I'm sad I'm not. breastfeeding anymore, but I think deep. down these are the right choices. She. writes that she simply does not have the. opportunity to catch up on sleep. She. doesn't even have the chance to take a. nap [music] during the day. She says, "When Cal naps, I have to take care of. Cora and Dawson. That's just how it. goes." I guess I also feel slightly.

traumatized by the sleep training, but. that feeling was only really present. when I was severely sleepd deprived and. paranoid. I know what we did was the. right thing and okay, she writes, "I. still really want a fourth child, but I. need a really good therapist before. then. I'm on the fence about starting a. new med or not. I want to feel happy, but it would be nice to feel. authentically happy and not fake, but I. need to feel happier than I did last. evening because then I was pretty. depressed and not enjoying any of my. children. It was really sad. I'm. struggling so hard because I wanted to. parent each of my children like my.

first. And since I can't, that's. depressing to me. I mean, this is. definitely the root cause of all our. problems. Now, I feel like I'm not. parenting any of my kids the way I want. to, and that makes me sad. But I'm going. to try my best today. I've just fallen. out of the habit of doing anything for. fun, anything for myself, anything for. Patrick, and I need to work on that. On. a positive note, I had a great deep. night of sleep. I'm terrified of. something happening to my kids or doing. something wrong to mess up their. development. Our generation is inundated. with information about every aspect of. parenting and everything that can go.

wrong if you just don't get it right and. all the scary things happening in the. world. It's insane. For the past 5. years, I've just filled my mind with all. these parenting and it's just unhealthy. This note has been interpreted all sorts. of ways online. Some say this note is. proof that she knew exactly what she was. doing. They think that her journals and. her future entries included, which we. will cover, show that Lindsay was not. hearing any voices, otherwise her. writing would have been a little bit. more disorganized. There would have been. some hint at a voice. There would have.

been more paranoia seeping through these. notes. These sound like an exhausted mom. who has no way out. Others argue that it. shows that she's clearly struggling and. trying to get better, that she's. screaming for help, she's not getting. much help. And a lot of others say this. actually could indicate mania. >> Interesting. >> So there are a lot of people who have. come forward and said that when they. were in manic episodes, they write like. crazy. They talk and they write.

extensively. And you know there's a lot. of debate online of people. I think the. only way really that anyone would be. able to know is if Lindsay was some sort. of avid journaler prior to all of this. that would maybe clear the air a little. bit. Other than that, we're just. speculating at this point. But a lot of. people have come forward to say at this. point in time, Lindsay is not seeing a. therapist. She's seeing a psychiatrist. And nowhere in Dr. Tu's testimony did. she say, "Hey, I told Lindsay to write.

down her thoughts when she has. thoughts." And a lot of people say that. it is not a natural thing for many. people suffering from depression to take. a lot of notes unless instructed by a. provider because the act of taking notes. I mean with people struggling from major. depression typically they can't even get. out of bed even basic hygiene is. difficult and so to formulate these. longer thoughts and write it all down it. does not seem like it's depression and.

could maybe be more so mania. And then. also other people are indicating this. feels like when people are in states of. mania, there's something called. pressured speech. And we're going to get. into it, but it's when someone has so. many thoughts and they want to detail. all of their rapidly racing thoughts. that they just keep talking and then you. can't interrupt them. This feels like. pressured writing basically. >> But again, that is just speculative. We. don't know. >> So there weren't a a bunch of notes from. her app notes app. There's not like a. ton of them. Well, there were, but in.

all in this period, so I don't know if. like when Lindsay was pregnant with Ken. or before, did she. >> Yeah, we don't have that information. from the police. >> We don't know if she's just someone who. journals like this on a weekly basis. because that could change things. Now, if she's someone that has never. journaled in her life and suddenly she's. like writing long monologues. >> in a state where people are saying you. look depressed or you know she's giving. off symptoms of major depression. It. just a lot of people think it's kind of. strange.

>> I see. >> And another thing to note is some people. say that there is this confusion with. being in a manic state and it being. associated with being euphoric or. someone being overly energized and hyper. and just talkative and non-stop go. But. there are states called mixed mania. where you rapidly cycle through periods. of energy and irritability and then it. swings really quickly to depression and. it just swings back and forth so rapidly. it is actually considered one of the. most dangerous kinds of mania because of.

the elevated risk of self-exit. Nevertheless, Dr. Tus then prescribes. Lindsay.5 milligrams of Adavan which is. basically laorazzipam and she she. prescribes a PRN which means take as. needed. So, not a daily medication. Advan is a bzzoazipene, which means it's. going to instantly help with anxiety, but it doesn't do anything to fix the. underlying issue of anxiety. Plus, it's. highly addictive, so it's not for. long-term use. Another example of a very.

common uh benzoazipene that I think more. people would be familiar with just due. to culture of movies and TV show is. Xanax, right? It's a controlled. substance. And by October 26th, Lindsay. tries the Adavan and reports that it did. help with the anxiety, but it still. didn't help her go to sleep. She tells. Tus that she tried taking over the. counter benadryil to help with the sleep. since the Adavan only helped with the. anxiety and not the sleep. So that is. when Tus prescribes hydroxyazine at 25. millig. Hydroxazine is an antihistamine.

prescription and it's offered as an. alternative [music] anxiety option. So. this is another PRN prescription. So. take as needed. So instead of taking the. benadryil, take the hydroxazine. That's. the idea here. And then take the Adavan. when the anxiety is unsurmountable, like. when you really need to take the Adavan, but do not take the hydroxazine and the. benadryil together. [music] Then TUS. decides that she's going to prescribe. Boostbar at 5 milligrams twice daily. So. Boostbar is an anti-anxiety medication.

that you [music]. do have to take every day and typically. you feel the therapeutic effects within. like a week or two. So, we've dropped. the Zoloft. We've added in BoostBar, which is the daily anti-anxiety. medication. Then you have the. antihistamine, basically the. prescription benadryil, take as needed. And then you have the benzoazipene, take. as [music] needed for severe anxiety. Lindsay is very hesitant to start the. Boost Bar. According to Dr. Tus, she's. just overall very hesitant to start new. medication. So, while she has the Boost. Bar prescription, it's unclear if she.

started taking it at this point. [music]. And Lindsay starts talking to Dr. toughs. about perhaps tapering down from the. Adavan. This is November of 2022. So, we're like 2 months in, right? Adavan is. a very shortterm prescription. There is. a huge dependence risk there. So, they. decide to start a slow taper because you. can't even just cut benzoazipines. because benzoazipene withdrawal can be. very, very serious. Some have described. it as being plunged into the depths of.

literal hell. You can actually die from. the withdrawal. And that's not like a. figurative like, oh my gosh, you could actually die from the. withdrawal. I don't think that would be. the case for Lindsay in this particular. dosage at this length. It goes to say. it's very dangerous. And around this. time on a postpartum forum, November. 8th, 2022, Lindsay writes in part about. Zoloft and Adavan. [music]. She writes, "Also, right now I feel the. only medication that works for me is. Adeavan. It has the perfect effect of.

decreasing my anxiety and making me feel. happy. It makes me feel like myself. again, but I know that it's not a. long-term solution [music] as it is. addictive. Any advice on any alternative. that has a similar effect, which there's. not really many. There's a reason benzo. diazipines are controlled substances and. are for short-term use. I actually knew. someone who is heavily dependent on. benzoazipines and like I don't know if. there really is anything other than. bzzoazipines that could be a.

replacement. It's kind of considered. unmatched for immediate anxiety relief. and that is why it is quite dangerous. and you do [music] get physically. addicted to it rather quickly. Then just. for the sake of following the timeline, we also get another boostar prescription. in November but Lindsay tells Dr. Dr. Tough said she never started it because. she was afraid of, you know, starting. new medications. But that that second. boost bar prescription does show up. And. this is where there is a lot of. conversation and it's going to feel very.

tricky to follow and just confusing. But. there were 13 different medications that. were prescribed to Lindsay from. September 22 to January 2023. However, some of these prescriptions are. replacements to other medications. And. just because Lindsay was prescribed, it. does not mean that she took it. And it. does not mean that she was taking all 13. at the same time. It's just very. confusing. I will say even for Boost. Bar, just like to give you an example, she has two bottles of Boost Bar, two.

Boost Bar prescriptions, right? For one. of them out of 30 pills, all 30 pills. are in there. But another one out of 30. pills, there's only 28 pills. So that. means there's two boost bar pills. unaccounted for. Did she take the two. and then decided that she didn't want to. take it anymore? If that's the case, it. doesn't seem like she reported that to. Dr. Tus or Dr. Tus never testified it or. had it in her notes. So we don't know. Also, Boostbar was not found in. Lindsay's system on January 24th during. the toxicology reports. I will say that.

Boobar's halfife is around 2 to 3 hours. and then usually within like a day the. Boost Bar would be out of the system. But did she take the two boost bar pills. that are missing? When did she take. them? Why did she stop? Why did Dr. Tus. not know that she had maybe possibly. taken the two Boost Bar pills? So, all. of this is just just because she's. prescribed something doesn't mean that. she took it. It's just confusing. Now, it's not the most pertinent question in. this case, but it just goes to show. there's a lot of mental work that we. have to make work of of what she's. prescribed, what she ultimately takes,

what actually impacts her, what she's. prescribed but doesn't take, what she. tells the prescribers, and then. ultimately what's found in her system. January 24th, it's confusing. Dr. Tu's. testimony has sparked a lot of. conversation online with people either. hating her or thinking Readington was. trying to make her a scapegoat. She is. also named as a defendant in two civil. suits. One by Lindseay Clancy for. personal injury and basically. malpractice and a wrongful death civil.

suit brought on by Patrick Clancy. So. they are separately suing a lot of the. providers. >> Oh. >> yeah. And people have a lot of opinions. about Patrick Clancy also suing the. providers. So it's a lot of there's a. lot of mixed feelings. Some people think. that Patrick shouldn't be suing. Some. people think that Lindsay shouldn't be. suing. And it's just that is another. fight. in itself for Lindsay's civil. suit. It states that essentially after. prescribing Zoloft and after hearing. Lindsay's reaction to said Zoloft, Dr. Tus did not recognize the significant.

role of the reaction. They're saying. like any good provider would realize. like this is not normal. This is a clear. indication that she is probably has a. bipolar diagnosis that's underlying and. this activated some sort of manic. response. >> Is this being discussed about the. bipolar? Yeah, I would say that it's not. a big part of obviously the. Commonwealth's case and chief, but the. defense brings in a lot of experts and. there's a lot of heavy discussion on. bipolar disorder and then the.

prosecutors bring in rebuttal experts. It's a whole back and forth. It's not. even just a debate of did she have. postpartum psychosis, it's also a debate. of does she have bipolar disorder, too? >> I see. >> And should these providers have known. it? Mhm. >> But the civil suit says that Lindsay had. such a strong adverse response to a. relatively low dose of Zoloft, they. should have known. For Patrick's. lawsuit, it reads in part, "Dr. Tus. prescribed Lindsay a variety of. different medications, but failed to. monitor her reactions to these.

medications or attend to her worsening. psychiatric condition." I will say. Lindsay's time as a patient with Dr. Tus. does not end with the new Boost Bar. prescription, but there are other. providers that get involved later. So, just to keep it on toughs right now, this episode is sponsored by Chime. Making a return somehow always feels. like you're making money even though. you're not actually making any more. money. It's kind of how cash back feels, but even better. With Chime and.

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to four years now. Lindsay comes in to. see her and she indicates in her intake. form that she feels [music] decreased. appetite, depressed mood, anxiety. attacks, easily distracted, excessive. worry, guilt, unable to feel pressure, unable to fall asleep, racing thoughts. She reports that she feels down, depressed, and hopeless more than half. the days. And Dr. Tough says it is part. of her job to look for signs of. psychosis in patients. When she's asked. about those signs, she says, "So, some. signs of psychosis might be that they.

appear disheveled. Um, I assess what. their um attitude is. If they might be. agitated or very uncooperative, um, that's, you know, a red flag. I will. assess what their speech is like. Is it. very loud? Is it very fast? Um or or. sometimes it it could be the opposite. where they're not really even even. speaking at all. Um I assess what their.

um what their mood is like, what they're. saying that they're feeling, and how. they appear um visually. She says that. she looks for disorganized thoughts, and. that's typically through like the. content of the conversation. If anything. sounds very bizarre or very paranoid, that would potentially be indicative of. psychosis. And she says she does that by. asking questions like quote, "Have you. ever heard voices? Have you ever seen. something that other people didn't see?". Which some people are like, "These are. pretty bad questions." But I mean, I.

think it's probably protocol, right? Tus. believes that she asked Lindsay, and. Lindsay's response was, "No." During the. cross-examination, defense attorney Readington first. questions Tu's experience as a. psychiatrist because when she sees. Lindsay, Dr. Dr. Tus had completed her. residency and had been practicing as a. psychiatrist for a little more than a. month. I do see a lot of people harping. on this issue. I have been down lots of. forums of people that are in healthcare.

That's the whole point of residency is. you get the experience through. residency. So, a lot of people think. that this is incredibly unfair for this. to be the focal point. However, there. are other things to take issue with. This just might not be one of them, but. people have taken issue with it. Readington asks, "Dr. Tus, I'm asking. you when you started working in August. of 2022, how many patients had you. treated before you saw Lindsey Clansancy. for postpartum psychosis?" So, he's. saying like how many other. >> Well, in the span of one month, I would. say none because it's a very rare.

disorder. >> Okay. How [clears throat] about. postpartum depression? How many people. in that month or so before you met. Lindsay treat postpartum depression? um. in the span of one month. I it's it's. really hard to pinpoint that. Um maybe a. couple. >> The clinic that Dr. Tus is working for. had her on the website as Okay. Well, this is what Readington says. You said. that you were basically a specialist in. the postpartum. You indicated that on.

the website, didn't you? >> That's listed as one of my interests. Definitely. >> Lots of you have problems with this. Okay. Netzens are like, "Yeah, okay. Next time I'm just going to list [ __ ] on. my resume and say it's an interest of. mine. >> And again, how many women did you treat. for postpartum depression in that month. and a half before you met Lindsay? >> I don't know, maybe a couple. But I've. treated I've treated many of them in in. the residency, which was just. immediately before. Some believe that. Readington is too antagonistic asking.

about TU's residency. And I think a lot. of people can agree that maybe the. clinic that she was working for probably. should not have listed her for something. that is as complicated. Even if it says. the word interest on there, like an. interest of Dr. Tus is women's. healthcare and postpartum. People think. that it's incredibly reckless for the. clinic to list her who has just been. working independently as an attending. for like a month and a half when this is. such a sensitive even for people with.

years and decades of experience very. difficult to identify. They think that. was reckless. However, they think that. Readington on that same note is also. reckless in his line of questioning. But. you do have to remember the jurors are. probably not health care professionals. I mean, there was a nurse on the jury, but you're talking about a lot of people. who are not health care professionals. So, while this cross-examination, when I was on healthcare forums, they. were saying it was the worst thing that. they've ever heard in their lives and.

they were getting pissed off at. Readington. >> But a lot of people are reminding them. Readington is not doing this for you or. for healthcare. Readington is doing it. for the jurors. He's picking whatever. angle is going to work on a normal. person. Yeah. >> And this is the angle where he's asking. about her doing residency during the. pandemic. Did you touch people, shake. their hand, give them a hug or anything. like that while you were working in your. residency during the pandemic? Sometimes. I think everybody had to keep their. distance at certain times. I began my. program before the pandemic, so of.

course there was a lot more handshaking. and things like that then. Readington. asked toughs. You're defendant in a very. large lawsuit, are you not? Yes. [snorts] And you know that the outcome. of this case is very major to the. outcome of your lawsuit. I don't. actually know that. >> I don't actually know that. >> You understand that if in fact it's. determined that you advertised as an. expert in postart and in postpartum. psychiatry and you've had a month.

experience plus a residency. Would you. consider that to be negligent or. misrepresentation? I do not believe that. I have been negligent. >> With a month under your belt, plus your. residency, do you really want this jury. to plead? You were an expert. >> Neverthe I don't think that's exactly. the wording that I used. I think I said. that it was an interest of mine. >> Are you an expert in postp? >> I I may be. It I don't know. I think it. depends on what you define an expert as. >> What brought Lindsay Clancy to your.

office? postpartum anxiety. Readington points. out that Dr. Tus does not administer the. Edenberg test for Lindsay, which TUS. says she did do a different test, the. PHQ9, which is kind of like an overall. depression screening form. But. Readington argues that's like. generalized anxiety disorder, generalized depression. It's got nothing. to do with a woman suffering from. postpartum depression, does it? I. disagree. Well, do you agree that people.

perhaps that may know a little more than. you determine that the Edenberg scale is. the appropriate scale to administer to a. pregnant or postpartum woman? >> Objection. >> sustained as deformed. >> You're familiar with the Edenberg scale, right? >> I've heard of it. >> And can you explain to me how it's. graded? >> No, I cannot. >> There are 30 questions in it, are there. not? >> I don't use this scale, so I don't know. how many questions there are. This is. not Dr. Tus's problem if her clinic does.

not use the Edenberg scale. However, I. think the point that Readington is. trying to make is even if you list. postpartum as an interest, but you don't. even know the Edenberg scale, which is. one of the bigger well-known screening. tests for postpartum anxiety and. depression. Is it really an interest of. yours? Even if that's not the screening. tool that you use at the clinic, should. you not at least know it? Because what. if a patient comes in and is like, "Hey, yeah, I took the Edenberg scale with my. last provider and they I was like this.

>> Should you not have a good idea of it?". And it's not an overly complicated scale. either. It's not like some crazy. terminology and then you got to draw. blood. It's just like a screening tool. like the GAD7. >> Mhm. >> Tus pushes back later saying that it's. not really her choice whether or not she. gets to use the Edenberg scale or the. PHQ9 scale. That's the Proctor, Aster, the clinic. That's what they use and. that's what she uses because she works. for them. Readington also makes it a. point to show the jurors that they had.

14 appointments from September to. January. 14 appointments between Dr. Tuffs and Lindsay and every single one. of them was tellaalth. >> Every single one of them were by tele. medicine. >> Yes. >> Until you came in this courtroom Friday, you never saw this woman in person, did. you? Correct. >> She was crying. She told you symptoms. that she couldn't get out of bed. Isn't. that right? >> At one time she said it was it was. difficult to get out of bed.

>> Oh, difficult to get out. Why was it. difficult for Lindsay Clancy to get out. of bed? >> Because she was very depressed. >> And and did you give her a hug? Oh, no. You're on tele medicine, so you couldn't. give her a hug, could you? >> Okay, this is where I did think it went. a little skewed. I do think like based. off of the interviews that we've seen of. the jurors so far, I think I can. understand the ploy that Readington is. trying to make for the jurors that are. in front of him. There's so many times. he doesn't call it Zoom, he doesn't call. it computer. He says, "You saw her.

through the television." And he himself. being an older man, it does seem very. old school, but there might be many. members of the jury that resonate with. that. Mhm. >> However, a lot of younger people online. are like, I only do tellahalth, so I. don't know what he's talking about. So, there is a generational gap here of. >> But I can see why he's doing it. >> He's critiquing the tell. >> Yeah. Now, is that the morally correct. thing to do? That's up for debate. Is. that the smartest thing for a defense.

attorney to do? Probably. So, that's. probably why he's doing it. >> Dr. Tus argues, I mean, I and she. doesn't argue, but she responds, "I. could look at her, but it was always a. video appointment. I couldn't give her a. hug, but that's not actually something. that psychiatrists typically do with. patients." Readington points out that. the angle of the camera and the TED talk. appointments, you can't see certain. manifestations that patients may have. and that would point to them being. stressed or emotionally disturbed. He. says, like hand ringing. She's like, "Yeah, were you able to see the hand.

ringing when you were on tele medicine?". I don't recall seeing her hands. You. recall how people sit there and they. they do this with their leg and their. leg bounces because they're going. through some type of emotional stress. You couldn't even see her legs, could. you? I couldn't see her legs, but I knew. that she was under stress. I think that. um I think Readington is setting the. scene. He's setting the scene because. later on a different provider comes on. and she states that ultimately she felt. Lindsay's condition. She wanted to see. Lindsay in person. M.

>> and I think he knows that's coming. And. I think he's making an extra emphasis on. Tu's testimony at this point. >> I see. >> to really hammer in throughout the times. that you've seen her, you never once. even considered telling her to come into. the office. So this is again he's trying. to pinpoint no one was giving Lindsay. the help that she needed. Dr. Tus says. whether an appointment is in person or. through teleaalth that's really up to. not just Dr. toughs but also the. patient. She says if a patient ever.

wants to do it in person, not through. tellahalth, that is an option. Some. parts of the cross- examination that. people are on the fence about, I will. say is Readington asked Tus about. whether or not Tus told Lindsay that. self-exit thoughts and actions are side. effects of Zoloft. Tus argues that that. is mainly for children, but Readington. says there's a blackbox warning on. Zoloft and other SSRIs. Is there [music]. not? TUS argues, "Yes, but it's mainly. for children and adults that are younger. than Lindsay." So, the FDA determined. that there is a self-exit risk for.

[music] children and anyone under the. age of 24 years old. So, Reington is. arguing, well, Lindsay was 32, which is. just like a few years older than 24, he. says. He never even mentions she's 32. He just keeps saying like a few years. So, does that suddenly mean that she's. no longer at risk taking Zoloft of. having thoughts of self-exit? TUS argues. back there's a lot of development that. happens in the brain between ages of 24. and closer to 30. The brain is fully. matured at [music] past age of 24. So. it's less vulnerable than in a younger.

individual. So at 24, you're suggesting. there's a cut off. Are you suggesting to. the jury that a drug that increases the. risk of self-exitation. cannot increase the risk of self-exit or. a 30-year-old patient just a little bit? There's there I don't believe there's. evidence that it causes that at all in. individuals over 24. >> Now I can see why people don't love this. argument. There is a lot of demonization. and fear-mongering of SSRIs that is. coming out of this case and SSRIs have.

been lifesaving, incredibly helpful for. millions of people everywhere like on a. global scale. SSRIs have there are. horror stories of course like with any. medication but there are people who. would not be here without SSRIs. So they. think that this type of language and. that Readington is using is only going. to scare people from starting an SSRI. when it's probably the best line of. treatment for them. I guess maybe a more. valid argument could be Readington. argues that another side effect of. Zoloft could be quote severe trouble.

sleeping. Insomnia. Did you tell her. that? Well, insomnia is listed as a side. effect. No, no, no, no, no. Did you tell. her that Zoloft has a side effect of. giving the patient severe trouble. sleeping? That's all. So, I didn't use. the word severe because it typically. doesn't cause severe trouble sleeping. But I thought that you were referring to. when she told me that she had severe. trouble sleeping, but she's basically. saying like she didn't think that Zoloft. and the problem of not falling asleep. was a big problem for Lindsay. But.

Readington is arguing, why would you. prescribe Zoloft to a young woman who's. postpartum who's coming to you with. anxiety? This is his direct quote who's. telling you she can't sleep. She's got. all these symptoms and then you. prescribe a medication that would have. had a side effect of trouble sleeping. So, individuals have varied responses to. medications. Some have no side effects. Some have one or two. It's impossible to. predict that. Zoloft is a top choice, a. firstline medication for her. Says who? The general consensus among. psychiatrists. There's extensive.

research supporting the use of cetrine. in this instance. and the general. consensus among psychiatrists that it's. a firstline safe medication for. individuals including postpartum women. >> How about the kids that shoot other kids. in high school and the lawsuits that. come out of that against Zoloft? Have. you read about them? >> Okay, so again, this is the part where I. do think that Readington is demonizing. Zoloft for. >> It's really interesting. He's going. after a specific medication. >> just for the defense of his client. I. think there's a lot of other ways to. defend his client. I think again we're.

just heading into weird territory here. with the SSRIs that gets objected. overruled. Um but he continues to ask so. you didn't really talk to her about. increased risk of self-exit with 24 year. olds because she's what four or five. years older than that. You didn't talk. to her about the trouble sleeping which. could be a side effect. He asks her if. there couldn't be any other drugs that. she could have prescribed that would. have been perfectly safe and common and. allow someone with no psychiatric. history to sleep better. and she [music]. responds, "Not necessarily.". Readington starts asking about Lindsay's.

reaction to Zoloft. And again, one of. the things that Lindsay tells Tus is the. mental fog, racing thoughts. Doesn't. want to be alone. Doesn't want to be. alone. What does she mean by that? >> Well, those were a lot of a lot of her. words, >> right? Isn't that a concern? >> If your patient is telling you she. doesn't want to be alone, why didn't she. want to be alone? So he's trying to hint. at like usually people say that but as a. mental health professional that. typically means they might be scared of. something or paranoid you can't just.

take it as I don't want to be alone and. I think you know there is a debate a lot. of nizens also say you know when you are. dealing with someone with pretty severe. depression they want to be alone but. she's saying she doesn't want to be. alone after taking the Zoloft and she's. having these racing thoughts a lot of. people think it's pointing towards mania. and paranoia so it's just like she. should be able to pick up on that is. what people are saying, but TU says. because she was very [music] anxious and. had the feeling like something bad might. happen, but we never get a clear idea of.

like what that something bad is. And. later Tu says it's very different. There. are fear of thoughts of self-exit versus. actual thoughts of self-exit. She said, say a patient might say they're having. self-exit thoughts, but when they. describe them, they're not actual. self-exit thoughts. They're fears of. self-exit. So that's the difference. And. [music] I'm sorry, I think I forgot. exactly what your question was. Readington points out more notes from. Tus near December where Lindsay denies. to Tus that she feels like she wants to. self-exit, but she feels close to.

feeling suicidal. Readington asks, "So, she was dwelling on it or thinking about. it, right? Is that fair?" She was. fearful of eventually having those kinds. of thoughts to self-exit. Yes. And how. frequently were those thoughts? I'm not. sure exactly how frequent they were. Did. you ask her? It's very likely that I did. ask her frequency, but they're not in. the notes. Would that be in your medical. records? When you see some patients, you. have some patients other than Lindsay. Clancy at that point, right? Yes. And. you document when a patient, my god,

when a patient comes in and tells you. that she's postpartum distress and she's. close to having self-exit thoughts to. self-exit. That's important, isn't it? It's important that I'm aware that she's. having these thoughts. What thoughts? that she is fearful to become suicidal. And she told you I imagine or you asked. how frequently these thoughts were. I. don't have that documented how. frequently they were, but it is a. question that I usually ask when we're. talking about self-exit thoughts. When. we're usually testifying in a murder.

case, we usually have facts that we can. tell the jury, not speculation. Would. you agree with me that many times. patients, especially psychiatric. patients, may minimize their. symptomology? Patients sometimes do. And. sometimes when a woman that has just had. a child and other little kids at home, you feel worried about the government. taking the kids away from them because. you're a mandated reporter, aren't you? >> You're a mandated reporter, right? >> I am. Having suicidal thoughts alone is. is not a reportable condition. >> Tus didn't know that Lindsay called the. self-exit twice during this time frame,

nor did she ever ask about it. Readington asks, "Is it a surprise to. know that she called the hotline in that. time frame, not once, but twice, and was. turned away?" You guys were on the front. line of this, weren't you? It does. surprise me. Yes. >> What do you mean turned away? >> Um, this is where a lot of people are. upset with the system, but even that is. a larger conversation, right? You can. have thoughts of self-exit, but. typically you are not taken in on a.

psychiatric hold unless you have a plan. I guess they tried to talk her through. it, right? And you never asked if she. ever called a hotline, did you? I don't. think that I did. Now, there is debate. online of whether this is more of a. problem with the field of how psychiatry. is practiced or if it's a Dr. Tu's. problem, but Readington is asking Dr. Tus about how Lindsay told Tus that. she's feeling like self-exiting. And Tu. says, I asked her, "So, what do you mean. when you say I'm feeling self-exit like. suicidal?" And that's when she said, "It.

means I'm feeling hopeless." And then I. asked, "Do you have intention of harming. yourself? Do you have a plan of hurting. yourself?" and she denied those which. Readington later asks what's the [music]. difference and tough says a plan means. that they know exactly what they're. going to do to do the plan you know what. they're going to use maybe when [music]. they've researched it and that presents. an immediate threat and that is. something that would require. hospitalization now a lot of people. argue it's just semantics and of course. no one is going to risk being sectioned. by saying yes I have exact plans and.

also a lot of self-exits are not. meticulously planned either in fact I. think statistics show that most of the. time that they are not planned. But. again, does that fall on TUS or does. that fall on the guidelines that are put. in place? But what would be the better. alternative? Because I don't think that. we should also just leave it fully up to. the provers's full discretion whether or. not a patient is sectioned because for. their own malpractice, they would just. start sectioning [ __ ] everybody. And. that would also be very dangerous and. could result in worse outcomes. So, we. could go in circles in point shoes, but.

I just don't know if we would end up in. the same spot. And I don't think that. I'm equipped because I have no. experience in healthcare to even really. understand the full scope. But that is a. full conversation that's happening. online. Readington asks toughs. >> Now, you'd agree with me that at this. point she had gotten significantly worse. even after all this medication that you. had been prescribing, right? Did you. make a note that she was um and that she. was crying, had more anxiety, insomnia.

had increased, brain fog, and worrying. about. >> um. in the couple weeks after starting those. medicines, um I don't recall that the. symptoms were significantly exacerbated. >> Did she tell you what the intrusive. thoughts were? Um, it was the feeling. like I'm going to die. It. >> This is also another nuance debate. Some. people think that Tus comes off really. cold. Okay, this is aside from the.

medications, >> right? Some people think that Tus comes. off really cold and does not do enough. to help Lindsay. Other people argue that. Tus is a psychiatrist, so she really is. a prescriber of medication. She's less. of a talk therapy. Tus does recommend. Lindsay to a few therapists that she. could talk to. So there is like this. back and forth of people of was it. really her job? So for and this is the. line of questioning that kind of sparks.

that debate. Readington asks you. indicated that she can't sleep, she's. panicking, she had worse depression, intrusive thoughts, she was numb, nothing mattered. Quote, I feel like I'm. going to die. Denies SI, but SI is um. suicide ideiation. denies SI, but quote, "Yesterday, close to it, feeling. hopeless. Did you give her therapy and. validations after she told you that?" I. believe I did. What did you do? You got. a woman that's telling you that she's. hopeless. She doesn't care if she dies, can't sleep. What did you do to validate.

her on your therapy? I told her that. this is something that we could address, that there was hope, that there were. treatments. There were different types. of treatment programs that are more. supportive like partial hospitalization. programs. [music] You agree that she. had, in your opinion, a severe mental. disturbance at that point that was. manifesting itself. >> She had a maybe moderate and moderate. heading towards severe. So, this is. where people are like, "Okay, well, if.

you're in a really bad state and. someone's telling you, don't give up. There's hope." That would also send you. into a spiral. But then others are. arguing, "Yeah, but she is a. psychiatrist and like a lot of people. are like, I only see my psychiatrist. like once a month and she asked me three. questions of like, how are the meds? Great. Okay, prescribing you another. one. Sounds good. Bye." So, people are. saying like, "Are we looking for the. wrong things with the wrong providers?". There's a lot of debate to be had. Other. people are saying hindsight is 2020 and. she only seems heartless now. But these. are how all psychiatrists are. And if. you have a problem with that, you. probably have a problem with psychiatry.

One interesting aspect though I think. that does not get talked about enough is. that Lindsay stated to Dr. Tus that she. was having about 1 to two alcoholic. beverages about five times a week, which. is quite a bit considering she does have. an Adavan PRN prescription. You cannot. mix bzzoazipines with alcohol. Oh, and she told the doctors that. >> But I imagine it's just like brushed up. on. Tus mentioned that she did not see a. problem with that. But I would imagine. that Tus was telling her like you can't.

take benzo with alcohol. But I mean, some people think that is a lot of. alcoholic beverages and maybe she was. self-medicating through alcohol to stop. with the anxiety. No one. But it's just. um it's just not a bigger topic which is. why we don't get much clarity. But it is. kind of weird. But people are ultimately. divided on how they feel about Dr. Tus, her care for Lindsay, her treatment. decisions, her testimony, her court. demeanor. There are a lot of people who. defend Tu, saying, "Tough spent more. time with her than lots of doctors who.

get sued." So, another writes, "The. worst is knowing that all these. providers actually legitimately tried to. help Lindsay. It's not like an obvious. case of medical gaslighting or. malpractice." Another person says, "Dr. Tus was not negligent. If you're dealing. with a patient who is non-compliant and. takes some pills here and there and some. pills there, who doesn't give the. different prescriptions enough time to. become effective, is not forthcoming. with everything, then that's not the. psychiatrist's fault. Other comments. that it's weird to defend toughs. They. write Lindsay exhibited signs of. bipolar. So, people are saying like.

everyone's getting lost in all the. testimony when the one thing that people. should be worried about is that after. Zoloft, Lindsay was exhibiting signs of. bipolar. But others argue there were no. like contemporaneous signs that Lindsay. was exhibiting symptoms of mania. It's. up for debate, but they write, "Lindsay. exhibited signs of bipolar, and Tus. completely missed it. Not only did she. continue feeding her medicine that. counteracts with bipolar, but she let. the illness go untreated as well. This. is literally the equivalent of not.

treating cancer because you don't detect. it." Her mental illness grew faster and. stronger without proper medication and. the incorrect meds. It is sickening to. hear people say she did her best. Three. babies died and a woman is paralyzed. Her best was not even close enough. Another thing is a lot of people in. healthcare do point out that you have to. be extra cautious when someone is. postpartum because very quick way to. activate a manic state is sleep. deprivation.

>> And you're going to have a lot of sleep. deprivation when you have a baby. And a. lot of times people who give birth and. then have bipolar episodes afterwards, they are not what is very obvious signs. of bipolar manic episodes, they're. usually in a mixed state. So it can. easily be confused with postpartum. depression. Another person in the. residency subreddit points out that. while they have sympathy for TUS, they. do think that there's a lot to learn. from the way that she takes notes, her. medical notes that were used in [music]. court. The fact that TUS also wrote that. Lindsay was quote close to SI, they.

think is really bad because either you. have SI or you don't, that could be. legally used against you. Or if someone. is quote close to SI, that's a very. insufficient description. You have to. back it up with more notes. They also. state that they understand why the. general public who is not in psychiatry. is not sympathetic towards [music] Tus. So while they are sympathetic, they can. see easily why the general public is. not. They think that she appeared. grossly unprepared for. cross-examination. An example being, you.

know, when questioned on why tellahalth. only and why she has never met Lindsay. in real life, Dr. Tus should have. highlighted that it makes psychiatric. care more accessible for a busy [music]. mom with three children. She did not. answer any of those questions. Well, >> but another highlighted example is later. Dr. Tus, she's asked about one of the. notes about pressured speech. We're. going to get into it in this episode, but she says to Readington, "I don't. care what was written. I know what I. meant. I don't care what it says. I know. what I meant. >> So, she has a lot of these moments where.

her notes are not good enough and she's. almost defensive about her own notes and. that could be the stress of the lawsuit. and her career at risk. Right now, I. can't tell you the exact data points. obviously, but it appears that a lot of. therapists, physicians, psychiatrists, healthcare forums with practicing. providers, they either feel like a. little too somewhat too fully. sympathetic for Dr. Tus. They don't. think that she did everything perfectly, but they can see how it happened, >> knowing the health care system, knowing.

how these things work. They don't. necessarily think that she should be. sued for malpractice, but they think her. documentation was horrendous and that. people need to learn from that, and her. preparation for the cross-examination. was also horrendous. They also critique. a lot of the system rather than TUS. herself. Others are more focused just on. the system as a whole, saying, "This. shows what's wrong. Doctors are. incentivized to prescribe medication, have quick visits, and pass blame to. others. What a shame. Others believe. that Tus, whether you like her or not, and whether she did make small mistakes.

that are not negligence, not enough for. a malpractice suit. They think that more. of the hate should be on the system. rather than the provider itself is what. some people are saying. One person. writes, "It became very clear to me when. watching her testimony that this was not. negligence and rather a clinician who. was operating within the constraints of. the system, given imperfect information, difficult to detect presentation, treating a patient whose engagement in. medication decisions were changing.". However, a lot of people in psychiatry.

point [music] out, "No, there there's. some bad here." So, the first being that. Lindsay later has a lot of other. providers [music] and none of them are. talking to each other. I wouldn't say. none, but the most important ones are. [music] not talking to each other. So, >> how did that happen? Is it just how the. system is set up? >> Yes. So, Lindsay goes and sees another. provider who is also prescribing. And. then Lindsay goes and tells Tus, "Oh, my. other provider just prescribed me this. and this and this and like what do you. think?" Right. It would make the most. sense for TUS to then say, "Hey, can you. fill this form so I can get the records. from that provider? And maybe I can even.

talk to that provider so that we can be. on the same plan for the same treatment. plan." Right? >> She never does that. She just takes. Lindsay's word for it. and the other. provider equally does the same thing. >> Yeah. >> Is that like a common practice? Is that. >> um that's up for debate. So a lot of. people on the healthcare forum say this. is incredibly common. Other people say. it's some people say it's like hindsight. is 2020. >> Wait. So they don't share their medical. charts, their histories and all of that. >> No. Unless you're in the same system. So. the few people that do communicate with.

each other, they're in the same health. care system. So they have the same like. they both work at the same hospital. so. they have access to the other provider. And then other psychiatrists are saying. it's really not the craziest thing. Like. it's kind of pretty common to know that. SSRIs that type of response does point. towards a mixed bipolar depressive. state. However, they also argue the. distinction can be really hard when um. everyone responds to medications. differently and maybe she was not. showing signs of mania as much. So it's.

it's still up in the air, but others are. saying, you know, that's a pretty common. knowledge is like, oh, we should be. working looking out for this. But others. just focus on the fact that, listen, she. admittedly did not have specialized. training in perinatal mood disorders. It. was inappropriate to advertise herself. as having some sort of specialty or even. interest in it. This alone deserves a. lawsuit. Another person writes, "She is. aware that her notes are medical. records, right?" Dr. Toughs continues to. see Lindsay throughout September,

October, November, December, and. ultimately January. Her last appointment. with Lindsay is January 23rd, the day. before the incident. And one of Tu's. notes will be argued and dissected in. court. But first, we have to go through. all the other providers that [music]. Lindsay had seen in that time frame. November 16th, 2022, Lindsay goes to the. Southshore Emergency Department. This is. the same hospital that she gets sent to. January 24th before she's medf-flighted.

>> Okay. >> So, November 16th, she goes into the. emergency department and she's like, "I. have severe insomnia." She is prescribed. Chazadone [music]. at 50 mg for sleep. She takes it home. She doesn't stay. She's not like. impatient. She just goes to the. emergency room. She gets a prescription. And she later reports to Dr. Tus that. she went to the emergency room, got. Trazadone, and it had very minimal. effects on her. [music] 2 days after. this emergency room visit, November. 18th, she writes in her journal, Tree of.

Life Journal. It's like I'm so desperate. [music] to get a mental break from. taking care of everyone that my mind is. trying to make something physically. wrong with me. My mind never shuts off. It's constantly thinking of the next. thing someone needs. I can't shut it. off. I desperately want to go back to. work, but now I don't know how to. function, and [music] it worries me. Now. that we're in the month of November, the. medication switching gets really fast. And from there, December does not get. any better. At least in my opinion, it. would appear that November and December,

Lindsay is going through a very active, [music] rapidly changing psychiatric. treatment period. So from September. 15th, 2022 to January 23rd, there are. approximately 35 prescription dosage. [music]. changes, taper, or treatment plan events. that involve 13 core psychiatric. medications. So it's like 13 medicine. and then they're like okay well let's. ramp it up let's decrease the dosage. let's swap and it's 35 different plans. So you have Zoloft SSRI, you have Adavan.

which is a benzoazipene, hydroxyine. which is like a prescription. antihistamine to replace the benadryil, boostar anxiety medication, trazadone an. anti-depressant, Prozac, a different. SSRI. Ambien, a seditive sleep. medication. Remarran an anti-depressant, Clonopin, a bzzoipene, cerakquil, antiscychotic, Valium, another. bzzoipene. Lamedel, an anti-convulsant and mood. stabilizer, as well as Elavil, which is. an anti-depressant. [music] We literally.

have a cocktail of anti-depressants, benzoazipines, sleep medications, antiscychotic mood medication, and a. mood stabilizer moving in and out of. Lindsay's med regimen. Now, I'm not. saying they're moving in and out of. Lindsay, but it's a constant up and down. increase decrease with the dosage, and. she's clearly not getting better. Thanksgiving 2022. Two months before the. Clancy children are killed, Lindsay is. showing signs of depression. Her husband Patrick takes the stand. And. there's going to be a lot more on.

Thanksgiving in the next part cuz. there's a lot on Thanksgiving. But he's. being asked about Thanksgiving. What was Lindsay like? >> She wasn't talking much. She had low. energy. She was really depressed. I just. remember when she showed up um my. sister-in-law gave her a big hug. >> and um she was able to get through. dinner, eat dinner with everyone. >> Yeah. >> And when she told you she was suicidal, did you ask her if she had a plan on how.

to kill herself? >> Yes. >> And what was her response? >> She said no. >> And at some point in time, did she tell. you that this was the first time she was. having these thoughts? I don't know if. she mentioned it was her first time or. not. I just remember her saying she had. them. Patrick's mom, Sue Clancy, more on. her later as well, is also a nurse. She. works at Southshore Hospital. So, this. is again the same hospital. >> Same one. >> Yeah, she is. [music] So, Lindsay is. well, she was a nurse, a labor and. delivery nurse at Mass General,

>> but she gets taken to Southshore and Sue. Clancy works at Southshore in labor and. delivery. And she recommends Lindsay to. see a woman named Julie Paul. Julie Paul. works at Southshore. She's a psychiatric. mental health nurse practitioner who can. prescribe. She is board certified. And. this alone, >> wait, hold on. This is so crazy. >> Yeah. >> Patrick's mom is a delivery nurse. >> Labor and delivery nurse. And his new. wife is also she is in the. >> Oh my god. >> She's an REI, so there's just like a lot. of.

>> Whoa. >> Yeah. So, she recommends her to see. Julie Paul, and she is a board-certified. nurse practitioner. This has spawned a. new debate. Like I'm telling you, every. single thing that we talk about is a. freaking debate online and it's it's. just so heated. There's now a whole. debate on nurse practitioners. Should they be allowed to prescribe? Just because nurse practitioners have I. would say probably less academic. training for prescribing in the field.

that they are prescribing. >> What's her Julie? >> Julie Paul is a nurse practitioner. Yes. >> And she prescribed something. >> Yes. But more so later, there's another. nurse practitioner that enters the. conversation. And so now there's a whole. debate on Reddit forums of, you know, MDs, doctors saying like we should never. let nurse practitioners prescribe. And. then nurse practitioners be like, yeah, well, we should. And then there's who. cares more about the patient? And that. itself is a huge beast of a conversation. that again, I'm not in healthcare. I've.

never worked a day in healthcare in my. life, so I really have no say. But you. know, but I'm just saying it's out. there. That conversation is out there. So, she's like, "Maybe you should see. Julie Paul." Julie Paul is the director. of the perinatal behavioral health. program at Southshore, which specializes. in pregnancy and postpartum. Now, Julie. Paul is well, she was, and this is a. misconception out there, she was one of. the few providers not being named in the. lawsuit by Lindsay or Patrick, but I. believe she is now listed as a defendant.

in one of the civil suits. So, there was. a lot of I think praise for Julie Paul. during her testimony knowing that she. was not being sued by either of the. Clancies, but um I don't know, there's. just Yeah, it's like a moving mess, right? Julie Paul reaches out to Lindsay. after Sue Clancy refers her. But I I. would say that Julie Paul is one of the. more liked healthcare professionals. November 2022, Julie Paul starts asking,

calls Lindsay, asks about Ken's birth, and Julie testifies. She said that she. did really well for the first 12 weeks. >> She said she did really well for the. first 12 weeks. She was excited, really. happy. And then when Patrick went back. to work, she said she started to. struggle with some anxiety. >> Lindsay expresses to Julie that she was. concerned [music] about Adavan and. Benadryl. Julie says she'd been taking. it for 2 weeks and it was working really. well, the Adavan, the benzo, but she was. getting concerned about dependence, so.

she self-weened herself off of that. She. reports to Julie feeling overwhelmed now. having three children, but she. experienced this to some extent with her. second pregnancy with Dawson. [music]. And nurse Julie wants to put Lindsay on. Prozac, which is an SSRI, because. Lindsay had told her that way back in. nursing school, she had actually taken. Prozac before, and she didn't really. have any crazy symptoms or side effects. from Prozac other than sexual side. effects. But, you know, that's not the. biggest problem right now, right? So,

she's like, instead of just trying other. SSRIs, let's try Prozac. Like, this is a. known medication to you rather than. taking shots in the dark. This is a good. start. Now, Prozac is again another SSRI. that we are prescribing to someone who. may have an underlying bipolar disorder. that is not counteracted with any other. mood stabilizer or anything else. Just. straight Prozac, just like it was. straight Zoloft. So, she prescribes. Prozac [music] 10 milligs for the first. 4 days and then increase it to 20 millig.

if tolerated. This is November 22nd that. Lindsay says she starts Prozac. She's on. Prozac [music] and nurse Julie also. still says you can take the Adavan when. you have severe anxiety but the plan is. let's still taper off the Adavan right. [music] and let's move towards something. like Boostbar which is not a benzo it's. anti-anxiety medication much safer well. I don't want to say safer [music] but. much less risk of dependency. >> that same day November 22nd 2022 Lindsay.

writes in her tree of life journal. >> why is it called tree of life just. didn't. >> yeah it's like a tree of name is on. there. >> Mhm. Affirmations. I am calm. I will. remain calm today. There is nothing that. needs to be on my mind. The weight is. lifted from my mind. I will sleep. [music] tonight. Julie also sets up talk therapy with. Lindsay with Leticia Dukes. But the same. day that all of this is happening, Julie. gets a message from Lindsay on my chart, which is how she talks to her. It's like. a provider to patient [music].

communication platform. And it reads, "Hi Julie, this is Lindsay Clancy. I'm. sorry to contact you like this, but when. you have a minute, can you please call? So, Lindsay and her talk and Lindsay. expresses concern about starting the. Prozac. They have a conversation. Lindsay states to Julie that, "Okay, fine. I will be starting the Prozac, but. a few days later, Lindsay tells her that. she doesn't like the Prozac.". >> So, she wasn't tolerating the Prozac, so. we had a conversation about stopping the. Prozac. Um, I gave her, she was really. having a hard time sleeping, so I gave.

her a one-time dose of ambient. Ambient. is a very strong seditive for usually. very severe cases of insomnia, but this. is a one-time dose. But I think a lot of. people just see ambient on a list of. medications and are like, "Oh my god, ambient on top of the benzo, it's a. lot." And I'm not saying that her list. of medications is not a lot. But it is a. onetime dose. The next day, November. 23rd, 2022, Lindsay journals, I slept. well last night. I will sleep again. tonight. Today will be a great day. I.

will go back to work on Sunday. I will. thrive. I can feel like myself again. I'm grateful for Sue, Patrick's mom, who. is always listening and trying her best. to help me. Kids are sleeping great for. Pat. Pat is handling nighttime stuff. I'm grateful for Julie for making a plan. for me. A big thing is I feel. disconnected with myself, time, [music]. reality. I think going back to work will. help with that. After Lindsay stops Prozac, after. reporting to feel quote disconnected,

out of it spacey, Julie Paul prescribes. Remarin, which is an anti-depressant. with very significant sedating effects. So, it more so can help with sleep and. anxiety. A lot of people report getting. deep sleep with Remaran, though a side. effect is feeling a bit groggier in the. mornings. But Julie also prescribes. Clonopen. Clonopen is another benzoazipene, but. it's a much longer acting benzo compared. to Adavan. And it appears that there is. kind of like a less risk of dependence.

there. This is where people think it starts. getting reckless. So, when you have a. benzoazipene prescription and you get. another one to replace it, you're not. turning in your previous benzo. You. still have them. You're supposed to have. compliance. the patient has to show. compliance of like, okay, I'm just going. to switch, right? But they think there's. too many bzzoazipene prescriptions going. out non-stop. And this is just one of. the many that's going to continue, just.

different forms of benzoazipines. So, we're switching from Adavan to Clonopen. Now, Julie Paul does argue that she. wanted to switch to Clonopen because. Adavan was giving Lindsay rebound. anxiety. So, when it wears off, the. anxiety comes back 10fold, which makes. her wants to take more Adavan probably. So clonopin, it has a longer halflife. It's a, you know, you're not going to. feel as much of that rebound anxiety as. what people report. So she wants to. replace the adavan with clonopin. Lindsay reports that with the remarin.

and clonopin together, she did sleep on. and off until about 3:45 a.m. which. isn't great, but it seems like this is. better than what she's been dealing. with. Lindsay asked Julie Paula if maybe. she should up the dosage of the remarin. So, not the benzo, the you know, remarran, the anti-depressant. She's. like, would that help with sleep? Because it's an anti-depressant with, you know, sedating effects, right? Julie. Paul gives her the okay, let's try an. updin, [music] which does end up helping. Lindsay sleep, but she reports that she.

just felt super disconnected [music]. with herself and reality. And this is. again a very common report for people. with Remaran um on Reddit that I could. find. [music] And she said that it was a. very scary feeling. So Lindsay asks. after two nights if she can stop the. clonopin which Paul approves. So next. day we've stopped the clonopin. Lindsay. has a full panic attack. Okay. Julie. Paul instructs [music] her take the. adavan. So stop the clonopin take the. adavan. And again clonopin is prescribed. as needed. So these were both benzo but.

[music] like don't take the clonopin. take the adavan. And she's like go for a. run because running always helps Lindsay. with regulating her anxiety. >> And I recommended she take.5 of Adavan. and go for a run. And I also recommended. that she consider doing the partial. hospitalization program at women and. infants. >> Julie also suggests partial. hospitalization programs, but she says. that Lindsay told her it it didn't feel. like it was going to work logistically. for her and her family, but this is the. first time that we see a provider see. that Lindsay's situation may need more.

intensive treatment than just normal. outpatient medication appointments and. therapy sessions. A guitarist gets sick right before the. concert and someone from the audience. steps up to take their place on stage. It's a power move. A singer runs up and. points a mic at a fan in the crowd and. they sing a verse of their favorite song. to thousands of people. That feels like. a power move as well. Just like how. hiring Morgan and Morgan is a power. move. Morgan and Morgan is America's.

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If you're ever injured, you can check. out Morgan and Morgan. Their fee is free. unless they win. For more information, go to forthepeople.com/rotten. or dial poundlaw529. from your cell phone. That's. fthepeople.com/rotten. or poundlaw529. This is a paid advertisement. Then there's Leticia Dukes. Leticia. Dukes is a therapist, so she's not a. prescriber, which also means I don't.

think I think she might have been. recently added into one of the lawsuits, but she is she's not dealing with the. medications. She is aware of the. medications. She also works for. Southshore. That's why Julie Paul. recommended her. She's aware of the. medications, but mainly this is talk. therapy, cognitive behavior therapy, CBT. therapy, right? Duke says. >> her presenting concerns were anxiety, lack of sleep, um depression symptoms, uh frequent uh passive suicidal.

ideiation, thoughts of wanting to die. and no longer be here. >> At one point, this is where I think like. the Commonwealth really is not doing. itself a favor. Um I do think the. Commonwealth did a [ __ ] job at even. preparing these prescribers for. testimony. >> Okay. hustle. >> They just like I mean none of them. really know how to answer questions in a. way that is seems favorable to the jury. It just a lot of people keep saying like. the Commonwealth is doing the defense's.

job. And I would have to agree at. certain points because it's just just. their lawyering does not seem that. great. At one point the Commonwealth, this is their witness. Okay. A very. important witness at that. The. Commonwealth asks Leticia Dukes, "As far. as your role as a social worker, do you. often get into the weeds with patients. about their medication?" Leticia Dukes. is like, "I'm not a social worker. I'm a. mental health counselor.". >> And as far as your role as a social. worker, do you often um kind of get into.

the weeds with patients about their. medication? >> So, I'm not a social worker. I'm a. mental health counselor. >> I'm sorry. >> Yeah, no problem. Um, but I typically. have a overview of medications, but I. don't particularly get into prescribing. or how to take medications. >> And again, this is just another example. of like this is your own witness. You. don't seem razor sharp what's happening. and this is what we're only like a week. or two into trial. Heading into. December, Lindsay reports to Leticia. [music] Dukes that she has low mood and. feels numb. Dukes notes she was tearful.

when discussing her anxiety symptoms. She reported as far as passive thoughts. were thoughts of not wanting to be here. or no longer wanting to live but no. plan. December 5th, Leticia Duke says. she reported that over the weekend she. had a difficult weekend having intrusive. thoughts about um wanting to and she. contacted Aspire Crisis Support a. hotline. She met with the clinician. virtually and was told that [music] she. did not meet the criteria for inpatient. treatment due to having no SI plan. She.

reports that she did not see signs of. mania or signs of delusion or paranoia. and no signs of psychosis. But according. to Duke's notes, she also says feels. like she's going to die, but she doesn't. care if she dies. Feels like she's going. to die, but doesn't care. She then. talked about how the meds she's on were. not helping her sleep. [music]. Yesterday, she took Adavan due to. intrusive SI thoughts. >> So constantly worried that something was. going to happen to her children or. something bad was going to happen to the. baby. under social. Uh the notes.

indicate that she reported she talks. about her anxiety all the time with her. mom, husband, and mother-in-law. >> Duke says that Lindsay reported being. uninterested in topics from friends, lack of interest in conversations. Lindsay told Dukes that she just feels. numb, lack of attention, confusion. She's only sleeping 2 to four hours a. night, which is very alarming. Dukes. notes that Lindsay's facial facial. expressions show anxiety, fear, apprehension, and sadness. Dukes meets.

with Lindsay four times in December, but. largely nothing explosive comes out of. Duke's notes, nor her testimony. And. while Lindsay is meeting up with Leticia. Dukes, Julie Paul transfers Lindsay's. care to Rebecca Gelato. Julie Paul is. leaving the practice and she's moving to. New Hampshire. So she introduces Lindsay. to Gelatada and she has been working at. Gelata has been working at this clinic. for about 2 years. So this is all. Southshore hospital kind of system. Lindsay's first appointment with Gelata. is November 29th and Gelata starts her.

on Cahakquil at 25 millig. So, the plan. originally was to just get Lindsay on. there for maybe about 4-w week period. for sleep and anxiety, but later Gelato. starts considering it for longerterm. mood stabilization, possible bipolar. spectrum treatment. Now, side note, so. far most of the meds Lindsay has been. prescribed are anti-depressants and. anxiety medications. Cerakquil is. considered an anti-csychotic medication. used typically to treat schizophrenia,

bipolar disorder, but also major. depressive disorder. [music] So Gelata. is saying like when I started her on the. cerakquil it was more so for the major. depressive disorder but then I'm like. wait I feel like there could be an. underlying bipolar disorder and maybe we. need to take the cerakquil for that. instead. >> H. >> the bipolar conversation gets big here. because Gelata straight up says she. considers that Lindsay was bipolar. However, she does not meet the. diagnosing like the diagnostic criteria. >> Interesting. So same time she's still. seeing the first doctor through tea.

health the whole time. >> Mhm. And are they double prescribing her. the the meds? Are they communicating? Do. they know what's going on with each. other? >> Gelato and Tus never communicate. They. do not get each other's records. Both of. them argue that Lindsay was. self-reporting to both of them what the. other was prescribing and they did not. feel that there was any overlap in. medications is what they're saying. >> Now, when Gelata takes the stand, a lot. of people online don't like her. They. don't like her and they don't like Tus.

Those are the two very controversial. people. Tus gets really defensive later, so that's one thing. Gelatada is I think. people are kind of off-put by her. demeanor. She's incredibly smiley, almost has a playful energy to her, and. maybe that could be her high-pitched. voice, which I can relate to. And I'm. also someone that likes to smile in very. nerve-wracking, particularly high-risk. situations where you do have to be very. professional. But I think it's more so. her tone and cadence. So she's asked.

like, "How do you spell your last name. for the record?" And again, she is. someone, she's a nurse practitioner that. specializes in helping people who are in. dark places in life. So perhaps she's. accustomed to talking in such a way that. comes off super friendly, but you know, when you are a witness on a murder trial. and there are three young children, it. just comes off maybe a little. unsettling. How do you spell your last. name for the record? Rebecca Gelada, J O. L L O T T A What kind of training and.

education did you do in order to become. a psychiatric nurse practitioner? I have. my bachelor's degree from the University. of Connecticut in allied health sciences. and then I went on to get my master's. actually in counseling psychology in. 2013. Gelata is asked if a patient needs a. higher level of care, is it common to. make referrals for those patients? Gelata does admit that it is pretty.

common practice and that is like a huge. debate online. Tus one and a half months. into being a practicing psychiatrist. Should she have referred Lindsay to. someone that could provide the care that. Lindsay probably needed? Gelatada nurse. practitioner. Should she have referred. Lindsay to someone who could provide the. care that she needed? Because you are. also again not just talking about. someone who might have an underlying. bipolar diagnosis. You're talking about. someone who is in that very sensitive. postpartum time bracket. So, a lot of.

things are happening. Gelata says when. Lindsay came in, she expressed her. concern about becoming dependent on. bzzoazipines. This is like a huge thing. Okay. to the. Commonwealth. They kind of hint at the. fact that Lindsay was doctor shopping. and they think that Lindsay was doctor. shopping for bzzoazipines. We'll get there. But as for benzoazipene. dependence, Gelatada says she'd say. about that. >> was concerned um about taking benzo, she. had mentioned um something called.

rebound anxiety. Once the dose sort of. wears off, your anxiety goes like above. your baseline. She was concerned about. getting physically dependent on it. because she had needed to take it for a. number of nights. >> Gelata starts her treatment plan which. includes switching out the Adavan for. Valium. So we go from Adavan. Julie Paul. says let's switch to Clonopen because. it's a longer halflife, less rebound. anxiety. Then she has a panic attack. Okay, back to Adavan. Now she's. transferred to Gelato and Gelata is like. you know what? Let's stop the Adavan and. go for Valium. They're all different.

types of benzoazipines. They do work. differently but they're all benzo. She. says the idea is Valium kind of like the. clonopin stays active in the body much. longer than Adavan. So the rebound. anxiety would probably be less with. Valium. And again Valium and Clonopin. are different. So maybe she would react. better to the Valium, you know. Now. Caitquil is the huge conversation. So. again she first prescribes it more as a. mood stabilizer for major depression, but later Gelatoa thinks it could be a. possible bipolar spectrum treatment.

Lindsay does not like the cerakquil. The. civil complaint attributes worsening. intrusive thoughts and self-exit. thoughts and auditory type experiences. to the period following cerakquil. Now I. know a lot of people who think that. Lindsay does have bipolar disorder too. They think it's strange that she did not. react well to the cakquil, but this is. also pretty common. Not every SSRI is. going to react the same with every. patient. Not everyone with bipolar 2 is. going to react to cerakquil in a certain. way. But it's I think the fact the. conversation is like did we know that. she had an underlying diagnosis or not?

Right is more so the conversation. But. Gelata is asked by the Commonwealth. What did Lindsay Clancy express to you. as far as Sarah Quill? Did she want to. continue with that? No. Did she explain. why? So she felt like when she took. Remaran and Sarah Quil together, she. felt weighed down and exhausted, but her. mind was still awake and alert and she. didn't seem to think that there was a. benefit of being on it. And did she. express to you a desire to want to get. back to triing Prozac? >> Both Lindsay and her husband express.

that that was their preference, >> which okay, this is where Patrick seems. to get the most involved with Lindsay's. treatment. He does meet up with Gelato. and he tells Gelato that his wife is not. bipolar. So that is what Gelatada reports in. court and there is a lot of conversation. around that. >> Wait, Patrick tags along once that we. know of. Mhm. >> and tells her that she's not bipolar. >> Yes. But he also tells her like all. these medications well from his account.

is like all these medications are. turning Lindsay into a zombie. Like can. we just stop like and and start fresh, right? Like stop all these medications. and start fresh. Now, I will say to kind. of point all aspects of this case for. someone that's not in healthcare, that. could be a very reasonable request. because it's like, gosh, these are so. many prescriptions coming in and out. like can we just like please slow down? It seems so rushed. Others are saying. well his mother is a nurse and Lindsay. is a nurse. It's you can't really just.

say everyone stop for how long? And then. I think more than that though I think. people can see both ways for that. I. think people don't like the fact that he. said that my wife is not bipolar. So. December 6, Lindsay comes to see Gelato. with Patrick and the Commonwealth asked. Gelato. Now when you met with Lindsay. and Patrick on December 6th, did she or. did they report why Patrick was there? I. don't recall if they indicated why he. was there. I understood it to mean he. was there to provide collateral and. support for her. Collateral being extra. information. So, this is also another.

huge thing. Readington keeps pointing. out to the other prescribers, especially. [music] Tus, why didn't you call her. husband? Why didn't you call Patrick. Clancy? Why didn't you call her mom? You. knew her mom came to stay with her cuz. she was going through a rough time. Why. didn't you call these people? Because. you need collateral information. usually. for psychiatric patients that you're. concerned about because they might not. be reporting to you correctly. So, it's. better to get a third party perspective. to know exactly how they are behaving.

and what they are going through to. [music] add to the treatment. Now, a lot. of health care professionals push back. saying there's just not time. And to. [music] insinuate that you need to reach. out to an adult's parents is very. difficult and unfeasible unless you see. some glaring red flags, which it does. not appear that the clinical. presentation in Lindsay's case was a. glaring red flag. That it's a huge. argument, right? I don't know. But the. Commonwealth continues with Chelada. Did. you express to Miss Clancy thoughts that. you had about her diagnosis based on.

your interactions over the last few. weeks? I did. And what was that? I. discussed with her and her husband the. possibility of potentially an underlying. bipolar disorder. I based this on. several factors. One of them being that. she had such what we call an. inactivating response to the Zoloft. It's unusual for somebody to describe. taking Zoloft and then going 48 hours. without sleep and not being tired. So. that raised my clinical suspicion a bit. and she had been, I would say, having.

difficulty tolerating other. anti-depressant medications that we had. been trying to have her take since then. So again, I'm wondering if it's because. potentially there might be an underlying. what we call a mood disorder, bipolar. disorder. There's bipolar 1 and bipolar. 2. Both have mania symptoms as part of. the diagnosis. Bipolar 1 is usually more. severe in that it's typically a patient. might need to be hospitalized or it. causes greater functional impairment. Bipolar 2 is a shorter duration and. typically less functional impairment.

And so while you noted that there were. some concerns reported, >> did what was reported to you rise to the. level of diagnostic criteria for bipolar. disorder? >> Not at that time. >> There wasn't enough to diagnose Lindsay. with bipolar disorder. Okay. And when. you explain this to them, your thoughts. about her reactions to the medications. and these reported prior symptoms, did. Patrick and Lindsay seem receptive to. your diagnosis? >> I recall Patrick saying, "My wife is not.

bipolar." Lindsay looked at me. She did. not She did not say anything. >> Were you able to get any more specific. information from Patrick during that. meeting? Not what he said particularly, but did you get additional specific. information that kind of helped you. assess whether you would change your. diagnosis at that point? No. Patrick. tells Gelatoa that Lindsay keeps waking. up with panic symptoms. And she. describes panic symptoms are racing. heart, intense fear. Those are panic. symptoms, sudden rushes of intense. anxiety that seem to come out of. nowhere. And Patrick later reports about.

Cakquil. That was really when Lindsay's. big spiral started. >> That was really where her big spiral. started. Um, she started to lose a lot. of weight. She became very depressed and. uh, she was having a really hard time. He says that this is around the time. that she started telling him that she. wanted to self-exit. Patrick says, quote, "It appeared she was affected. very negatively and she's reporting that. she was getting worse on the caakquil.". So, this is what Patrick is saying about. the cerakquil. Lindsay doesn't seem to. like the cerequil either in her civil.

suit. Sarahquil seems to be like the. tipping factor as well, but people have. some mixed feelings about Patrick being. there and saying like, "My wife is not. bipolar." So, it's just all sorts of. conversations. But more on the Patrick. conversation in the next episode. Okay, but this is where it gets weird. The day. after the conversation with Lindsay and. Patrick about wanting to stop Cerakquil, the exact day after, Gelatoa prescribes. Valium and Cerakquil trying to ramp up. to 400 mg. So to give you an idea of.

what's going on, Lindsay and Patrick. want to stop the Cakquil. >> [music]. >> Patrick tells Gelatada that his wife is. not bipolar and Gelata's new plan is to. stop the cerakquil and retry Prozac. But. the next day, Lindsay reports another. awful night of sleep. However, Lindsay. tells her that she did not sleep, but. she does not feel tired. So again, this. is very concerning perhaps, and this is. maybe where Gelato feels the concern. that Lindsay might be experiencing a. mixed manic hypomomanic state instead of. just anxiety and sleep issues. Prozac is.

held. Cerakquil comes back with rapid. titration towards 400 milligrams. So. this 24-hour window, we stop Cerakquil, retry Prozac, hold the Prozac, aggressively increase Cerakquil. This is. one of the larger dosage movements in. the timeline. So Lindsay was prescribed. Cerakquil initially November 29, 30th at. 25 [music] millig. So now we're ramping. up to 400 300 mg. Oh, and then also. another thing is that it would appear.

that they're moving from normal. cerakquil to XR, extended release, which. means now instead of cerakquil lasting 4. to 5 hours, it's going to become 8 to 12. hours in Lindsay's system. Gelatada says. that she increased the cerakquil because. I recommended 100 on day one, 200 on day. two. So, this is like I I don't know on. a medical standpoint if this is rapid, but it just felt rapid to me as a lay. person who has no medical knowledge. Day. two, 200 millig. Day three, 300 millig. Day four hitting that target number of.

400 mg cerakquil. [music]. This is she says the manufacturer. recommendation titration schedule to. treat manic symptoms because again I had. shared with her I think this is a mixed. manic hypomomanic state. So that's what. I was targeting. And when asked to. describe a mixed manic state she says. when a patient has symptoms of mania. like poor sleep, no loss of energy but. they can also feel depressed, numb, self-exit thoughts. It's sort of like. it's a mixed state. It's a mixture of. symptoms and the presentation is. clinically acute. [music] Lindsay.

expresses wanting to get off cerakquil. Gelata explains to her as long as you. are aware of the risks. I don't think. you've been on cerakquil long enough for. it to have a positive benefit on your. mood or anxiety. But if you have noticed. benefit, the risk would be worsening of. mood and anxiety upon stopping the. medication. We also discussed tapering. off the Valium, which I'm fine with. Being off medication might help you see. where you are at baseline, but I do. think you are experiencing significant. and severe symptoms of postpartum. depression that need to be treated.

Gelata tells her, "I acknowledge that. medication alone is not always the best. option for someone, but often it's part. of the puzzle. Other treatments include. counseling, support from others, exercise, healthy diet, yoga, relaxation. techniques. I know this has been brought. to your attention several times, but I. strongly recommend a partial. hospitalization program so that you can. get started utilizing those treatment. methods for relief. And Lindsay reports. that she's at 200 mg cerakquil, but. she's still doesn't seem to like it. Now, in December, Gelato says that she.

wants to start seeing Lindsay in person. The Commonwealth asked, "What did you. recommend in person?" At that point, this was somebody who was communicating. with me every day. I did feel that she. had significant symptoms of depression, some mixed symptoms with mania, anxiety. I felt that her symptoms were severe and. significant enough that I wanted to. touch base with her weekly and and I. wanted to see her in person. Gelato. later tells Readington that sometimes. it's better to have face tof face actual. meetings with a patient rather than just. on the computer, which Readington loves.

that point, right? And I will say that. Readington goes much easier on Julie. Paul as well as Gelato for a number of. reasons. I think there's a lot of. discourse online of why is he going so. easy on the nurse practitioners and then. going so aggressive on the psychiatrist. A lot of psychiatrists are backing up. toughs. It's a whole back and forth. However, I think with Julie Paul, she. was not in Julie Paul's care for a. lengthy period of time and there was not. that much medication movement for Julie. Paul. And then as for Gelato, I think.

there is a defense strategy of not going. too hard on her because the defense is. arguing that Lindsay has bipolar. disorder and she was the only provider. that was kind of seeing that she's still. named in the malpractice lawsuit, but. more so to do with the Sarah Quill, but. I don't think that Readington is. particularly fond of Gelata. Um, a lot. of nizens are not fond of Gelata either. At one point, Gelata is testifying. The. Commonwealth asks her a question. Readington objects. The judge overrules.

Readington's objection. And Gelatada, maybe out of nervousness, she laughs. And Readington is like, "Laughter coming. from the witness judge.". >> Objection. I love it. >> Laughter coming from the witness judge. I'm sorry. >> She's just like, "It's it's a mess.". >> So people mostly don't like her. mannerism or how she carried herself. >> Yes. And then there are really a lot of. debates. So, when you watch the full. trial, Lindsay and Gelato do communicate. a lot through my chart.

>> Okay, >> so there's a lot of back and forth. communications. Some people think that. Lindsay is the worst patient to have. So. annoying, non-stop, right? Others argue. there are times where Gelato is like, "Yeah, okay. We'll talk on Monday. Um, here are some resources for the. weekend." And it's just like hotlines. and people are like, "What the?" So. there's a lot of like back and forth of. is this care or is this great care and. Lindsay is being unreasonable. I think. it really depends on how much you like. Lindsay Clancy, right? But there is a.

lot of debate about the constant um. benzo prescriptions. Adavan, Clonopin, Morvalium, like it just seems like a lot. of benzoazipines. Other than Gelato, none of the other. providers state that they believed. Lindsay could have been bipolar. But is. that because Lindsay is not bipolar? Or. is it because they were not looking for. those specific signs? During the. Commonwealth redirect for TUS asking. about bipolar and Lindsay potentially. having bipolar, the Commonwealth is. asking Dr. Tus, right? Cuz she's the one.

that prescribed the Zoloft. What are the. types of questions you ask a patient to. determine if they've experienced an. episode of mania? Well, a lot of it is. what I can see in a session. I might. also ask about some of those symptoms. like decreased need for sleep or racing. thoughts or increased risk-taking. activities. But even if they're. reporting those things, I would I would. have to really see it for myself to to. diagnose that. >> Which a lot of people argue that in her. notes she did say that Lindsay was. having racing thoughts. She didn't. really need the sleep. She wasn't.

sleeping. She went 48 hours without. sleep. >> So people are like the are these not the. exact things that Lindsay told you? But. the Commonwealth asks, "And what would. you see physically?" I might see the. person is talking very fast, and it's. almost impossible to interrupt their. rate of speech. Um, and it might also be. very loud. They might be hyperactive, not able to to sit still. They might be. yelling and uh jumping from one thought. to another without any linear um. connection between the thoughts. Yeah, I.

guess that's that's probably what I. would what I would observe in terms of. behaviors. Did you observe any of those. behaviors with Lindsay Clancy? No, it. was the opposite. What do you mean it. was the opposite? The opposite of. euphoria is dysphoria or depression. The. opposite of hyperactivity is tiredness. and fatigue. So in a way it was the. opposite of mania that I observed which. again people argue in a mixed manic. state you're going to have both present. But there's a lot of debate about even.

that. Now, when it comes to Gelada, the. one that did suspect underlying bipolar. disorder, she says if you were sure. somebody had bipolar disorder, because. if you put somebody on just an SSRI like. Prozac, like Zoloft, it can create a. scenario where people are flipping back. and forth between manic symptoms and. depressed symptoms, or they're called. rapid cycling. It's not that. anti-depressants or SSRIs are never. prescribed in bipolar disorder, but you. often would want to have a mood. stabilizer on board at the same time. December 7th, 9:48 a.m. Lindsay sends.

Gelata a message. Hi, Rebecca. Rebecca. Gelata. [music] Last night did not go. well at all. I took the Valium and. melatonin and only slept from 9 to. [music] 1. Then around 2, I got. desperate and took 25 millig of. benadryil and only slept about one more. hour. What can I do? I really need help. So, this is another thing a lot of. people have been pointing out. They say. that with postpartum depression, a lot. of people have pointed out that it's the. fact that they are unable to get sleep.

because they have so many new things. that they have to do in caring for a. newborn. But this seems more so strongly. insomnia. She cannot get sleep even when. she has the time to sleep. Gelatada says. patients can have insomnia because. they're anxious or because they're. depressed, but typically they're. exhausted or they're tired the next day. and it really does affect them. If a. patient has an underlying bipolar, they. could go on two hours of sleep and not. feel tired at all. And that's unusual. >> And so that is one of the signs.

potentially of a manic episode. >> Potentially, yes. December 7th, 10:33. p.m. Lindsay messages Gelato. No, the. weird thing is I don't feel tired at. all. So just Cerakquil [music] tonight. I feel like I'm going to panic without a. benzo with it. Would I be able to do. Valium with Cerakquil? Gelato responds, "If you're not sleeping well with the. Valium alone, there's no need to. continue it. And I will prescribe a. short tape to get you off benzo. altogether because if you are not tired. at all and had a significant reaction to.

Zoloft at 50 millig, [music]. I'm concerned this is an underlying mood. and bipolar disorder. I know you and. your husband do not necessarily agree. with that, but I'm going to send along. this information to review." She sends. Lindsay a list of symptoms of bipolar. risk factors so she can refer to it. Readington asks Gelato. [music] So, one. of the things with the mania that you. refer to and that you talk about is that. excessive activity. Is that it? Excessive cleaning sometimes. Right. Sometimes excessive exercise sometimes. Did you know that after Lindsay had Ken.

that within a matter of a couple of. weeks that she ran a 5K? >> Did you know that after she had Ken that. within a matter of a couple of weeks. that she that she ran a 5K? >> No, I did not know that. A lot of people. think this is a crazy like often skipped. over conversation. I mean, some people. argue they're runners. >> Others are saying like that is kind of. with everything that we know about the. case so far feels like maybe she felt. because Patrick said she felt great the.

first 12 weeks, maybe she was in like a. manic state. And usually after a manic. state is a very depressive state and. then maybe it was after Zoloft it was a. mixed manic state with rapid cycling. Readington says and nobody wanted her to. run the 5K including Patrick but she had. to get out there and run and did. Did. you know that? I [music] did not. Is. that something that would be important. to know? I mean as far as whether or not. a person is that manic stage where it's. post delivery and that's a significant.

artifact if you will of exercising. Right. It would have been something I. would have considered. Side note, Lindsay went on a jog the morning she. went into labor with Ken, so some people. say again she's a runner. Other people. are saying like it just seems like a. lot. Readington asks Gelato, "Do you. know that she had lost over 15 lbs by. that point?" I was aware that she had. lost some weight. I was not aware that. it was 15 lb. >> By what point? I'm sorry. From the. beginning of the medication. >> I think um within the time of I think.

running the 5K. But there is a lot of. rapid weight weight loss. >> Oh, okay. Okay. Right after she gave. birth. Yeah. Like. >> side note, Lindsay Civil suit also. argues that had the prescribers asked. more information about Dawson's birth, her second child's birth, and she had. told them more about it, those would. have been critical indicators that would. have quote alerted competent psychiatric. providers to the risk of bipolar. disorder and the potential for more. severe postpartum psychiatric. complications. According to Lindsay. Civil Suit, it says, quote, "Lindsay.

demonstrated significant activation in. hypomomanic behavior, including an. extensive program of exercise, beginning. only one week after delivery. She woke. up every day before the children at 4:00. a.m., ran three miles, did spinning for. 30 minutes, and then on the Pelaton, and. then 30 minutes of aerobics." Yeah. >> Yeah. Her sister Allison also observed. that Lindsay was like buying into this. Beachbody multi-level marketing scheme. So she said that Lindsay is very. sensible, but Lindsay was like.

purchasing a ton of products to resell. for this Beach Body program of, you. know, she started making these videos of. her exercise routines, posting them on. Facebook, encouraging her friends to. join. So they're saying like this is an. option that this is a hypomomanic. episode after having the third child. And combined with her behavior after. having Dawson, this should have. immediately suggested to a competent. provider that Lindsay may have bipolar. disorder. And the biggest debate of all. of this is from TU's notes from October. 21st, 2021. So this is after Zoloft.

Readington has Tus read her notes. No. sleep last night. Falls asleep after 40. minutes. Heart racing. Severe anxiety. Worrying about kids. Baby sleep. Yawns. but not drowsy. Not hyper. Comma. Pressured speech. Readington is like, "What was that?" Not hyper what? Not. hyper. Not pressured speech is what I. meant. I know it doesn't say not, but. that is exactly what I meant. No sleep. last night. Falls asleep after 40.

minutes. Heart racing, severe anxiety, worrying about kids, baby sleep. Yawns, but not drowsy. Not hyper pressured. speech. >> What was that? Not hyper. What? >> Not hyper. Not pressured speech is what. I meant. I know it doesn't say not, but. that is exactly what I meant. >> When did you see this that you noticed. that it did not say not? I don't care. what it says. I know what it meant. >> Wait, when did you see this that you. noticed that it did not say not? >> I don't care what it says. I know what I.

meant. >> Well, when you wrote this, you did not. say not pressured speech. You said in. the medical record pressured speech. No. Well, when you wrote this, you did not. say not pressured speech. You said in. the medical record pressured speech, right? >> No. >> Does it say that? >> Yeah. The word is the word not is right. before not hyper comma pressured speech.

The two are following the knot. >> to you. When you put down in the medical. record, heart racing, severe anxiety, worried about kids, baby sleep, yawns, but not drowsy, not hyper, comma, pressured speech. That's what you wrote. She did not have pressured speech. >> Heart [clears throat] racing, severe. anxiety, comma, worried about kids, comma, baby, sleep, comma, yawns, but. not drowsy. Period. Not hyper, comma, pressured speech. That's what you wrote,

right? >> She did not have pressured speech. Do. actor. >> I wrote that but you're misinterpreting. my note. >> Am I reading this correctly? And the. jury will be able to look at it. That. you put not hyper, pressured speech. Did. you Did I read that right? >> Yes. But your interpretation is. incorrect. >> as opposed to your husband. >> Dr. Tus is super defensive. She's. practically huffing and puffing on the. stand and this pressured speech debate. becomes huge. Pressured speech is rapid, frantic, uninterrupted way of talking.

driven by the urgent, compulsive need to. express racing thoughts. When someone. has pressured speech, it's not even. someone that talks quickly and talks a. lot. It's not a yapper. It's someone you. can't even get a word in. You can't even. really interrupt them. It's like they're. on a mission. But for Tus her notes, she. is insisting that she meant not hyper. not pressured speech, but she wrote not. hyper, pressured speech. Now, one thing to note. is that later the Commonwealth asks her.

about this. So, this is like a whole. other debate. A lot of Dr. Tu's notes. are checklists. Like the practice gives. out these little checklists and little. boxes that you just check off for each. patients. M I don't know if that would. constitute like a malpractice suit, but. it seems more so an opinion that nizens. have made of like what the [ __ ] is that? However, I will say October 21st, 2022, TUS does label Lindsay's speech in the. box as appropriate. So, she does check. off the appropriate box.

>> Oh, on the same one. >> Yes. So it could I would I would say. that I'm leaning more towards she meant. not pressured speech just because that. same day she does check off on the box. appropriate speech. However, I don't. think that her reaction in front of the. jury was great. I think it's really not. taking. >> Mhm. Yeah. >> documentation of a patient. >> Dangerous, too. >> Yeah. So, while I am somewhat inclined. to believe Dr. Tus, I also think what.

the [ __ ] is that note? Why is that even. up for debate? And what if this. checklist didn't exist? >> Yeah, >> but even the checklist are kind of what. the in my opinion, like why are we doing. everything on checklist? It's just. strange. But another person just. comments, the fact that a doctor said I. don't care what it says during a murder. trial is crazy to me. Others are just. saying, I think that she had pressured. speech. Holy moly. Like this woman. failed her. Others say she can't recall. a question from the prosecution, but she. recalls what her note should have said. Others are like a lot of health care.

professionals are saying like this case. is going to be used for the next 50. years to hammer in how important patient. documentation is. >> And I think the only takeaway from this. pressured speech because I do see it. kind of miscommunicated on social media. a lot with people forgetting the. checklist part because I do think that's. a huge part of the story that's very. relevant of whether or not Lindsay had. pressured speech. But one thing that I. will note is I do find it perhaps a bit. uncomfortable that she is listing her.

interest as people with you know with. these perinatal mood disorders and this. is how she documents notes when this is. such a sensitive vulnerable time frame. for people who had just given birth. There's a lot of reasons for a lot of. things to go wrong psychiatry-wise but. it's just uh that's the way you take. notes is kind of bizarre to me. I think. I take more extensive notes for like. someone's dinner order if they ask me to. order them something. It's just bizarre.

But that's my opinion. I'm not a. healthcare professional, nor am I a. doctor by any means. So, and speaking of. pressured speech, that brings me back to. a lot of people think that her notes. were pressured speech. There's another. mother who was going through postpartum, unrelated to this case. She had a. potential undiagnosed bipolar disorder, and she shares her experience, not in. court, this is on Reddit, right? And she. was saying like once I got back from the. hospital after giving birth, I could not. stop writing. >> Oh, they're saying Lindsay Clansy's. phone notes tab is precious speech.

>> Just like her intense documentation of. everything, you know, because I think a. lot of people are debating and again. it's that's why mental health is so hard. because you can't say, "Oh, well. depressed people don't do that." It's. really hard to say, but a lot of people. are arguing like, I don't know if. someone who is dealing with major. depression disorder is going to take. extensive notes about everything they. feel unless they are told to by a. provider. And it doesn't seem like. Lindsay was told to, at least initially. One person writes, like, I just kept. writing. Tons of energy, pressured.

speech, no appetite, weight loss. I. couldn't sit still. But she says, I. simply could not stop writing. I wrote. at every opportunity, even during. breastfeeding. I went online, typed. lengthy emails to friends. I didn't. realize my friends would see the actual. time I sent the emails. And some of them. later told me that they were puzzled. that I was writing such lengthy emails. in the wee hours of the night. And we do. know that Lindsay kept pretty intense. notes about a lot of things, which we're. going to go over all of those notes in. the next part where we go through not. only the notes, but Lindsay's. hospitalization in January, which has.

been heavily debated, as well as the. overall conversation of the lack of. coordination of care, but also how all. of that seems to ramp up until January. 24th and what Patrick said happened. January 24th, 2023, as well as his 60. Minutes interview and why a lot of. People don't believe what Patrick said. Let me know your thoughts. Stay safe and. I will see you in the next run.