World Leader At 31: How Sebastian Kurz Became Austria’s Chancellor | FO554 Raj Shamani

How did you become the youngest prime. minister in the world? >> My first reaction was very negative. I'm. 24. I'm still at university. It's not. going to work out. Media is going to. kill me. >> Were you ever scared to go against. someone who is the most powerful person. in Europe and you're a small minister in. a small country? >> We were absolutely scared. We knew that. they're trying to politically kill us. They said that our approach is racist.

They compared us with Hitler. >> Sebastian Kurts from the youngest. chancellor in Austria's history to. building a $3 billion AI company with. the man behind Pegasus. If you want to. understand real power, making impossible. decisions, spotting when a nation starts. to lose and the technology that will. decide the next superpowers, this. episode is for you. >> What was your biggest fear as a prime. minister? My biggest fear was always. losing control.

You cannot oversee everything but at the. same time you are responsible for. everything. I woke up with this fear every day and I. went to bed with this fear every day. I. heard one billionaire say that the world. is controlled by 100 people sitting on. one table and they decide who's going to. be the leader of the world next. >> You said that there's a race going on, right? and Europe has lost clearly at. this point. >> There's a race between the US and China. When it comes to tech and AI, we have to.

admit that they are far ahead. Europe. [music] is playing no role in this race. Nations were super nations if they had. [music] nuclear. In the future, nations. will be super nations that control. cyber, AI, and quantum. As a prime [music] minister, you have to. make decisions all the time and you know. that every decision will benefit a lot. of people but also affect [music] a lot. of people at the same time and there's.

no one decision which is right. >> The most important thing is to be aware. that not all your decisions can be right. and you have to be [music] okay with it. >> Do you have friends when you become. prime minister? Because everyone who. wants to become your friend, they would. want some kind of transaction. Who would. be the two or three people [music] who. would have the max amount of power today. in the world? Um, so. I have a small favor to ask you. I need. you to subscribe to our channel. The.

more subscribers we have, the better and. bigger guests we can bring and provide. you more value through these. conversations. And also the full audio. experience of the show is available on. Spotify where you can follow us and. stream and listen to all your episodes. For everyone. who doesn't know you and who's watching. you for the first time, okay, tell us how did you become the youngest.

prime minister in the world? I don't know anyone who's who's been 30. and has like who's become a prime. minister at the age of 30 like how how. did that happen? I was 31 second um it. was not planned to be honest. Um and it. was a long uh journey but I I started uh. in in politics more than 10 years before. that. So um to be honest it was not.

planned at all. I was uh at the age of. uh 16 17 like everybody else going to. school enjoying going out. I played. tennis but I was also interested in in. politics. So. at the age of uh 17 I I started to. volunteer in the youth organization of. the conservative party in Austria. [snorts] I enjoyed it. I went there for. like events. twice a month or three times a month and.

uh after a few years um then uh became. the the head of the youth organization. and I would say this was the the. starting point um I I still didn't want. to become a professional politician. Um. but things went very well. The youth. organization became bigger and bigger, became more and more powerful. In the. end, we nearly had 100,000 members, which is a lot for a small country like. Austria with 9 million people. And um.

when there was a change in the. government, my party leader in these. days invited me to become uh state. secretary for integration, which is. something like deputy minister. And just out of nowhere he told you. because you were leading a youth party. he the the party leader just asked you. to become state secretary. >> Well the the youth organization was very. sizable. Yeah. And it was very. successful. So it was a like a powerful.

group within the party. Um so. I think it was not such a big surprise. Yeah. On one hand because I was was 24. And so when he asked me to join the. government like my my first reaction was. very negative. I told him look I'm I'm. 24. I'm still at university. I'm by far. too young. It's not going to work out. Media is going to kill me. It's it's a.

bad idea. And he was patient with me and. very friendly and said look you don't. have to decide immediately. Take your. time. Relax. Sit down for a few hours. consult with a few people and in a few. hours we talk again and you tell me how. you decide. So I sat down, thought about it again, had the same. feeling. It's impossible. It's not going. to work. Media is going to kill me. But.

after 10 minutes, he came back and he uh. looked at me and said, "Ah, look, um. [gasps]. I I I feel a bit sorry for you because I. told you take your time. you have a few. hours. The truth is if you discuss. something in politics with a few people. um people cannot keep secrets um I have. to inform you it's all over the news now. that you are going to be state secretary. for integration so there's no way back.

so I ended up um at the age of 24 as a. member of government um without saying. yes without accepting the job but um a. few days later I was in this position. And unfortunately, I was right. The. start was extremely tough. Media was. very negative. Public opinion was very. negative. And I probably had the had the. toughest year of my life. >> And what was the worst line you read. about yourself in the media when you.

became almost like a deputy prime. minister at the age of 25? >> Deputy minister. like I I don't remember. like a a single line because there were. so many and all of them or nearly all of. them were very negative. It was um to be. honest unfortunately most of it was was. even true. No, it was like uh saying. that there's not a lot of experience. that I'm super young like like it was. most of the things were facts and and.

that is why it was so difficult. Yeah. So the first year in this uh position. was really tough [snorts] and it was. extremely challenging. I think the only. reason why I survived it was because. there was no real way back. Yeah. So. once I was in this position, I. uh I had no other other choice. So I. tried to do the best out of it. I I. tried to build the best team. Um I hired.

um great people with a lot of experience. around me. We worked extremely hard. Um. and uh yeah tried tried to perform and. to convince people with our performance. uh day by day. >> But were you the first one who became at. the age of 24 who became the minister as. well in Austria? >> Yeah. >> So did you ask the party chief ever like. why you why at the age of 24 you? Well, I knew it was because of my position as.

of as the head of the youth. organization. Um, so this fact was not a. a big surprise. It was just like the. young age that was challenging. >> So here was what I'm trying to. understand. Like the party chief. appointed you because he wanted the. influence of those 100,000 people who. were supporting you. Or did he see that? Did he see a future uh did he see a. future politician in you and he wanted.

to recruit young more and more young. people to join party? >> So he was probably more optimistic than. I was. Uh. but uh unfortunately I was right on that. and he was was wrong. So it was really a. tough year. Um I think what he wanted to. do and I think this is is like what. politics should look like. I think he. wanted to build a very diverse team. Yeah. He wanted to have men and women, people from the city and from the. countryside, older people uh also a.

young guy like me. So I think this was. his idea and in in general, yeah, I. think such an idea is good. It was just. tough for me that I was the young guy. and that I was the target. And then you. became in next four years you ended up. becoming the foreign minister. How did. that happen? Well, as I told you the. first year was was super tough. The only. thing that we were able to do was to.

work hard and thanks God things got. better step by step. I I will never. forget that a good friend of mine uh. called me uh in these days and uh when I. asked him for for advice uh he said no. look you don't have a lot of uh choices. the only thing you can do is try to do. your job don't read everything which is. in the media don't take it too serious. yeah just focus on your job [snorts] and.

uh it was a great advice for for these. days because it was my only choice. And. uh then. um when things started to to become. better and better uh this friend called. me again and and said uh what I what I. told you in these days is still correct. So try to do your job as good as. possible. Don't read everything that is. in the media uh and don't take it too. serious. So I think that's that's the.

right approach. Yeah. I think the best. thing what you can do in politics is you. should try to do what you believe in. Yeah. And uh if there's a lot of. criticism, yeah, try not to focus on it. Focus on your job. Do your work. And if. there's a lot of applause, try not to. focus on it. Just focus on your work and. do your job. I think that's the that's. the best advice I got and and that's how. I I I tried to to do my job. >> Fair. But was there a turning point.

which made a young 20-year-old something. become the foreign minister? >> Well, because everyone else in the. ministry was probably twice your age. >> Absolutely. So I I think as I told you. the beginning was super tough. We tried. to do our best and we were responsible. for integration of um foreigners in our. country. I think what we did well is. that we tried to um change the whole.

debate. So what we said is you should. not judge people by their origin or. their religion um but by their. performance. Yeah. So we we said like. focus on performance. Everybody who is. in our country, no matter where he comes. from, um should contribute, should work. hard, should learn the language and. should be um like somebody who. contributes in our society. And this.

approach was. I think the right one. Yeah. because uh. it it was not the left approach that. like all foreigners are victims and they. should get a lot of uh uh social uh. support and and public money and it was. not a a far-right racist approach. So I. think it made a lot of sense and and. with this approach I think my team and I.

we just did a good job in in in our. field and it was seen very positively by. a growing number of people and this was. the main reason I think why we got a lot. of uh support in in the elections and. after that uh I ended up in a new. position. So when you were the secret uh. the state secretary at that time you. introduced this immigration policy. >> Yes. >> And then that's why you ended up. >> Yeah. >> What was this entire immigration policy?

Because the Europe. generally is seen very receptive of. immigrants, right? Especially Germany, they're very loud about it. You are very close with Germany, right? you speak the same language and yet you. were blocking the immigration and being. like if somebody is just coming to your. country they should not be welcomed if. they're not contributing to the society. right absolutely absolutely so how did. you stand for because comparatively to.

Germany your country is very small and. you're a young person. >> absolutely look in 2015 the migration. crisis hit Europe especially Germany. Austria Sweden and a few other. countries. [snorts] And um I think the. main problem in these days was that the. German chancellor Angela Merkel had the. policy of open borders and welcoming. everybody who wanted to move to Germany.

And I think the main problem with this. policy was that so many people felt. invited. Yeah. that millions started to. leave their home countries in order to. end up in Germany, Austria, Sweden or. other Western European countries. And I. think because of my experience in the. work uh in integration, I always had the feeling that this is.

not going to end well. So from the. beginning, I always had a different. approach. We always uh were against the. policy of open borders. Um we always uh. said that um. illegal migration or massive migration. is extremely problematic for Europe. And. we also said that uh integration can. only work successfully if there's a.

limited amount of people that you have. to integrate in your society. Um so I. was always on the other side which was. extremely tough because Merkel was very. powerful in these days. She had a lot of. public support for uh her position. All. the media was supportive and most of the. other European countries. So it was. really tough. Yeah. [snorts] In the year. 2015.

to have a different approach. Since then. times changed. A lot of people changed. their opinion and many people now. realize that the policy of open borders. was uh wrong and very problematic for. Europe. But in these days it was really. tough to have a different approach. How. do you feel today that the policy and. the stuff that you were talking about in. those days you were seen as negative? You were seen as rebel. you were seen uh. a person who's standing against humanity.

and a stronger power is the same. approach now everybody is actually. liking and following. Yeah. But look you. said I was seen negative but it was much. worse. Yeah. like they they said that. our approach is racist and like they. compared us with Hitler and the dark. days uh uh and the dark times uh in our. uh continent. So it it was really really. tough. Um and in these days there was no.

room for a rational debate. Yeah. uh. everything was so emotional and when we. tried to argue that with the policy of. open borders we create a lot of problems. in Europe and at the same time hundreds. of thousands of people are in danger on. their way to Europe and probably 10. thousands every year are drowning in the. Mediterranean Sea because it's. dangerous. uh and we were arguing that.

the smugglers are earning a lot of money. with that and we are supporting this. industry. Whenever we came with these. arguments, there was no rational debate. It was just emotions and so it was it. was very tough in these days. It was a. small group um that we formed supported. by uh some Eastern European countries. which had a very similar view but the. the big majority in in Europe was on the. different side. Since then I I would say.

that um most people have changed their. mind. um public opinion has changed but. also most of of the prime ministers um. today have a different view and I think. that it's now thanks God common sense. that Europe has to protect its external. borders and that the idea of a European. Union without internal borders can only. work if you have functional external. borders.

>> True. And. explain me the scenario. Okay, now that. you're not in the office, so you can. probably speak more freely. That. there's a there's a hidden rule, right, that whatever Germany says, the Europe. follows. Is that true? I'm not sure if it's hidden. Yeah. Um. [laughter]. yeah, I I would I to a certain extent I. would agree. Yeah. So um Germany is by.

far the most powerful country in in the. EU. I think what normally [snorts] um. Germany tries to do is like to to agree. with France and the moment like the two. countries agree on something [snorts]. most of the others are are pushed to to. follow this approach. um it's not always. 100% like this and of course on on. certain issues some countries are more.

uh influential but in general of course. the two biggest countries are more or. less leading within Europe and so now. you know that Germany is the most. powerful and everybody follows Germany. and Agla Merkel was the most powerful. woman in EU at that time. Did you like. were you ever scared to go against. course of course. >> someone who's the most powerful person. in Europe and you're a small minister in.

a small country in front of her at least. >> course of course we were absolutely. scared in 2015 because um we we knew. that they are trying to politically kill. us. Yeah. So um. >> how did they try to politically kill. you? >> Well, it was difficult in in the. government. Um I think that uh like. the the chancellor and the vice. chancellor were considering like uh. pushing me out of government. Um.

[snorts]. >> your own countries. >> of course there was. >> because they were following you. >> Yeah, of course there was a huge media. campaign against us. Um there was a lot. of pressure in the meetings in in. Brussels. So it it it was really tough. But I I think the main reason why we. kept our position was really the. experience that we had uh in the work in. the area of integration in the years. before because if you work in this. field, you figure out that like a lot.

positive is possible if if the right. people are entering a country. But you. also see with your own eyes every day. what can go wrong if you attract like. people that you don't want to have in. your country and you also see very. quickly that it's all about numbers. Yeah. So if you have a class of 25. school children and 23 have German as.

their mother tongue and you have two. immigrants that don't have German as. their mother tongue, it normally works. very quickly that they catch up. But if. you have a a class of 25 children where. 20 or 22 or 23 uh are not from Austria. and don't have German as their mother. tongue then it becomes very very. difficult. So I think with this.

knowledge with this experience from our. work in in integration. we just felt that it's our duty. Yeah. To to keep this position and yeah it was. tough but today I'm very thankful that. we that we stayed strong and uh did not. give up in these days. >> Did you ever think that you should back. up? You should just not go against. someone that powerful. Well, because that would have made you.

>> very close to her or maybe close to the. powerful people and then that would have. helped you. >> well become better in your political. career. >> Of course, you can always argue you. should uh choose your fights and. probably at the age of 27 28. Yeah, that's that's not the the right one. But. to be honest, we were so. clear and 100% sure, yeah, that the idea. of open borders will not work. Yeah, we. were 100% sure that this is going to end.

up in a in a big mess. Um that we Yeah, we we we were so committed to to our. idea that uh there was no other path for. us. and I would have rather resigned. than to give up this position. >> Interesting. And what if you had to. summarize one specific problem which. will be the biggest problem? What would. it be like? And what I mean by that is.

at the time when you were saying no for. immigration, what was the biggest concern? What did. you see that in future what will happen? What were you concerned about that these. guys didn't get it? that the Europe at. that time didn't get it at all. >> Look, I I think that um. there were so many aspects about it. So. the first is um we live in a world with. more than 6 billion people. Yeah. So. there are unfortunately hundreds of.

millions of people that live in very. poor conditions and so there is a nearly. unlimited amount of people that are. ready to leave their country to move to. a country like Germany, Austria or. Sweden. >> Yeah. Um that's number one. Number two, um the fact that. if you have a policy of open borders, the ones who profit the most are the.

smugglers um and human traffickers is. something that I didn't want to swallow. Third, if so many people leave and try to go. through the Mediterranean Sea to Europe, 10,000s every year lose their life on. this journey. Yeah. Which is also. something that is inacceptable if you. ask me. [snorts] And then for Europe, the way how our countries are built is.

that we have very strong social welfare. systems, which means that we have. extremely high standards. So people who. do not find a job or do not have work um. will end up with more than€1,000 a month. which is uh a few times the income for. somebody who is full-time working in. other parts of the world. But these. systems only function if you always have.

a very high number that pays taxes and. finances this system and a very limited. number that gets money out of the. system. And if you open such a system. for illegal migration and people from. everywhere around the world can enter in. the system and get money out of it. without having paid one euro in. [clears throat] then you just destroy.

the system. And I think this was always. clear but because of all the emotions in. these days most politicians didn't care. about that. >> and they had the famous saying in German. right I forgot we something which. >> we are shuffas. >> we will manage it. >> yeah we will manage it was um the. [snorts] moto of Angela Merkel so I. think at a certain point of time when it.

was obvious that it's not going to work. She tried to tell people okay just uh. keep on going. We will we will manage. it. We are shuffenas. Of course um this. was uh a lie. >> Yeah. This was I heard this when when I. was first time in Vienna and. >> Okay. >> My first country ever which I visited. outside India was Vienna. >> Really? >> Yeah. Because I was at the United. Nations. >> That's a privilege for us. >> Thank you. That was that was my. >> Why Vienna?

>> Uh because of United Nations. So I got. >> I got in in the UNIDO. >> which comes under V headquarters the UN. >> and I got an opportunity to go there to. represent India to do certain things. >> Oh great. >> and it was 2015 or 14 I remember. Yeah. >> we are very proud to host so many. international organizations in in Vienna. especially the UN. >> Yes. Thank you and thank you so much for. accepting because it was one of the it. was a training ground for me. This is.

where I learned so many things. >> Have you enjoyed it? >> Oh, I loved it. That's one of my Vienna. is by far one of my favorite cities. because I just learned every little. thing there. >> Great. You're always welcome. >> While you were explaining all of this, tell me, did you ever think that. cultural identity is something that you. want to preserve? Because a lot of. people are talking about it now. I I of. course I think that cultural identity is. important for a country and for a.

society but um that was not the main. issue in these days. I think the main. issue in these days was just um to to. stop this massive flow of illegal. migrants which would cause so many. different problems uh that cultural. identity is just one aspect out of it. >> and it was not like what's happening to. London right now or what's happening to. UK at this point. Do you think that is.

something that you worried because UK is. losing its ground? Of course, but I. think it's as you said, it's it's it's. one aspect, but there are so many other. problems as well. If you look at, for. example, the social welfare system and. many other areas, but it's definitely. one important aspect. Um, and you can. see in many European cities what's. happening if you don't control. migration, if you don't decide who is. allowed to come and who is not allowed. to come. And I think you can do it in a.

very smart way. Look at countries like. for example Singapore or the UAE. They. are attracting the best talent in the. world. >> Yeah. >> And that's of course attractive for a. country and that brings a lot of like. positive developments. But if you don't. control migration, if you allow the. smugglers to decide who is able to come. and who is not able to come and if it's.

not a decision by the government, by the. people, then you end up in a big mess. >> True. Which city or country you think is. suffering the most because of. >> unfortunately? I think there are many uh. examples but uh I think if you look at. uh Brussels today, if you look at uh. certain cities in in France, um of. course you see that these cities have. changed a lot. Um that there is not the.

same level of security. Um and if you. look at uh the schools um you see that. it has become very very difficult to to. keep the standards. >> What's more important for. getting the international organizations. together like where where it happens in. Switzerland or Brussels like which is. the most important more important place? >> Yeah, it it depends what you look at. I. think like uh if you look at the UN uh.

then of course there are other. headquarters than if you look at the. European Union um for for the European. Union most of the decision making is. happening in Brussels because that's. where the council meetings take place. that's where uh the the the European. Commission is based that's where the. European institutions uh are because I. what I'm trying to understand so how a. 27 year-old is all of a sudden promoted.

to become a foreign minister. There must. be something right. So student. organization helped you become secretary. of state. That I understood. >> But now well. >> making you one of the I guess foreign. ministers in the world. >> I I think it was a combination. So first. of all um it was uh the support of of my. party leader in these days. Um second I. think it was um my team and that we. really did a good job in in the area of.

integration and third of course it's. always election in a democracy so in. these uh days I ended up with a lot of. like uh personal votes um. >> what is personal votes. >> um in our system you you vote for. parties but you can also uh support. individuals if you write in their name. and we had a lot of support in this. election and I think this was a driver.

um within the party and for my party. leader to to offer me um this position. in these days. >> Did you win the highest personal vote? >> Yes. >> And then how from foreign minister in. next four years you became the prime. minister. >> Uh that was a a a tough journey to be. honest. What was it tough? >> Listening to you, it sounds like step by. step and uh as everything was very easy, but it was it was very different to be. honest like uh when I started uh in in.

in office as as foreign minister. Of. course, I was again super young in this. position. It was not an easy start. Um I. had a great team, thanks God. Um and as. as we spoke, the main challenge was uh. the migration crisis in these days. Um. so there were a lot of internal fights. around this issue. There was a lot of. pressure. Um there were a lot of like. also media campaigns against us. So it.

was not not an easy one. Um in the end I. think the the answer is I took a lot of. risk when I was foreign minister and. when we were in the middle of the. migration crisis like there were a lot. of people who had a different view than. us also also within my party and so it. ended up in a big conflict um where it. was unclear what would be the outcome.

Yeah. So um at a certain point of time I. I ended up. um. in the situation that my party leader. stepped down and. there was the question if uh I was ready. to take over the party or not. And of. course the easiest answer would have. been to take over the party to uh. continue as junior partner of the. socialists to become vice chancellor. Um.

but I was very frustrated with the. coalition with the socialists. I I did. not believe in these days that this. coalition uh would provide the right. answers for the question of uh migration. and also in all other aspects. I was. very skeptical that this uh partnership. is working. So I took a lot of risk, took over the party but at the same time.

um stepped out of the coalition uh and. asked for early elections um which was. uh a lot of risk which was in a way um. unexpected. and of course the outcome was was. unclear to be honest. The last thing I. wanted in these days was. just to have a governmental position to.

have it. Yeah. Uh without being able to. do something positive or change. something where I think that change was. needed. So we took a lot of risk, asked. for early elections, went all in and in. the end we were lucky and and won. Now I. I have three questions on this. You you. painted out as it was it was very easy. that you just took a risk and then this. happened, right? I have a specific. question. First you said you went. against the party chief of your own.

party, >> but who was a different one? Like it. changed the one who. >> not the one in the past? No. >> Okay. Not the one who got you in. >> No, no, it was a a different person. Yeah. >> And why did you go against him? What was. the main reason? >> Well, I I would say. >> And how old was he, by the way? uh he. was much older but I I would say I would. say that I didn't go against him he went. against me that was my my point of view. uh. >> what was he against. >> no he had a different um perspective on.

migration he was supporting like Angela. Merkel's approach which was the the main. issue for me and besides that in these. days we were I'm a conservative and we. were the junior partner of the socialist. s um in in a coalition between the. socialists and the conservative which is. a coalition that at least from my point. of view is a very difficult one because. both parties have completely different.

ideas on nearly everything. So this. collision was in a way stuck in days. where I thought that it's necessary to. do reforms and also fix migration which. was our biggest problem in these days. >> Um and that was the reason why. I was very controversial in these days. Um and it was very unclear how. everything would end up. I think uh the.

the main goal of my party leader in. these days was to get rid of me and just. continue the the the coalition. And when. he saw that this did not work out, um. yeah, he he resigned and um I had the. decision to make either to. take over and become vice chancellor and. continue everything as it was or to do. something different. And uh of course. for me it was clear to do something.

different because uh I I was very upset. with uh the status of the coalition and. um uh the policy on on migration in. these days. >> When you asked for early elections, were. you confident, be honest, that you'll. win? >> Well, in in politics, you never know. Um. I would say I was not sure at all. Yeah. Um but I was I was willing to take the. risk. Yeah. Because I never wanted to be.

a professional politician. Uh that was. never my goal. Uh I ended up as a member. uh of government as I told you before. more or less by by accident. Uh but I. enjoyed it a lot. But the thing I. enjoyed is to fight for something that. you believe in, to to do something. positive for your country and um to do. what you think is good and and right for.

the people uh in your country. And so. for me it was it was clear that it. wouldn't make any sense Yeah. to just. keep a position just to have it. Yeah. without the power to change it. So that. was the reason why I asked for early. elections, why I was ready to take this. big risk. And for me it was also like. clear that um yeah if you win you you.

can really change something and if you. lose you you leave and do something. else. >> At what point did you seriously think. that I could lead this country? Well, I. think when when. I asked for early elections, that was. the the point of no return. You know, almost nobody who's alive today has run. a country when they were 30 or 31, right? [laughter]. What did.

you understand that your opponents. didn't? Because Austrians trusted you. like they. Why did Austrians Why did people trust a. 30-year-old to run the country? What do you think? What was your winning. leverage? Well, >> because people voted for you. >> I think I I always tried to have the. best team. Yeah. And um what we did in. in my days is that we brought a lot of. people in from outside politics. So not.

only people uh who spent their whole. life in politics but people who were. successful business people or managers. or uh ran universities or other. institutions. And so I think we were. able not only to create a big movement. but also to to to bring a lot of. knowledge and experience in the inner. circle of politics. And I think this was. the the main advantage that we had.

compared to other traditional parties. >> So because your team was great, people. voted for that as well. >> I think I think that was a very. important uh aspect. And um I think the. second uh thing was that after so many. years of this coalition between the. socialists and the conservative party. where not a lot of like change was. possible because everything felt stuck. Uh I I I I think the country was ready.

also for reforms and for something new. and um this was exactly what we tried. We partnered up for the first time um. since a long time uh with uh the. farright. So it was a centerright. coalition, my center right party with a farright. party um which made it possible to have. a new like tough approach on illegal. migration which made it possible to do.

some necessary reforms. Um we achieved. the budget uh surplus instead of deficit. spending. Um we were very. businessfriendly. uh which made the country more um. competitive and we um reduced taxes uh. for working people. So uh I think we we. were able to to change a lot in a short. period of time which was very much.

supported by the majority of people. After you became prime minister, okay, the day you became prime minister or in. the first couple of days, who did you. discover who had the most power which. you didn't expect? I think because of. the fact that I that I was foreign. minister before and deputy minister. before that I I had I was young but I. had a lot of experience and I knew the. system quite well. So there was not so.

many surprises. Um what I would say is. that probably there's a lot of power in. bureaucracy. which is not so much seen by most. people. So most people believe that as a. politician you take the decision and so. it's all about the politicians. The. truth is there's a lot of room for. politicians especially if they are brave. and if they are ready to uh enter a.

fight but but bureaucracy is very strong. especially in the EU which means that. political decisions sometimes. seem to be a bit limited because of this. huge bureaucracy. um where most people are not brave. enough to fight it. >> Um, and I would say this was not a real. surprise because I I knew about it, but. it's it was even tougher than I thought.

But tell me because you've been the. prime minister and you understand this. about the world. Who. who's the most most powerful person? Is. it the one who's leading the. bureaucracy? Is it the agencies like how. we have it in US like CIA and FBI of the. world? Is it that is it some. group of like five six billionaires.

running everything because they are the. one who are investing in infrastructure. and they control the money or is it the. prime minister or the office person. who's sitting in those who has the. maximum power? >> I think it depends now if you're talking. about Austria the EU or the world in. general. So talking about the world, I. would say that um. of course there is more and more power. in some um big tech uh giants. So if.

you're talking about the world, I I. would say it's it's very easy to answer. There are only a few superpowers. Um. that's mainly for sure still the US and. and China. India has become super uh important and. Russia is definitely a player. Um but. the number of superpowers is is limited. I think you have to distinguish between. western liberal democracies.

where you always have checks and balance. and power is limited in a way and uh. other uh countries in the world um with. this different systems where one person. can uh be much more a center of power uh. than it's possible in in in the western. world. Um so that's the way how I would. I would answer it. Of course, tech. companies are getting more and more um.

important and if you look at for example. the the numbers of users of uh social. media platforms of course like their. algorithms and uh uh other decisions. they make uh have a lot of influence on. the public opinion and um [groaning]. probably in the end also on elections. So if we keep China and China and their. uh leader aside because that's where the. concentrated power is there and there. are no checks and balances if we keep.

that aside who do you think like who. would be the two or three people who. would have the max amount of power today. in the world is it tech giants or is it. the president of. >> No it's definitely the the president of. the US who is uh always the most. powerful person in the world and is it. not like how we read everywhere where in. random articles or a lot of. you know conspiracy theorists in the. world would come out on internet and.

talk about it that there is I heard one. billionaire say. >> I think you you should you should always. enjoy conspiracy theories but you should. not believe them. >> that's what I'm asking you right uh I. don't believe a lot of them but I enjoy. a lot of them right. >> okay that's fine. >> I heard one billionaire say that the. world is controlled by 100 people. sitting on one table and they decide. who's going to be the leader of the. world next. >> That's. >> That's pure. >> Pure.

>> That [clears throat] it's not decided by. 100 men who are like behind the mask and. they decide how politicians are pure. mere pawns and. >> absolutely not. Look, if you if you. follow the the public the debate in in. the US, I I think it's obvious to say that. nobody knows at the moment um who will. be the next nominees for the. presidential uh campaign in two years. No, nobody knows who is going to win.

So, it's not a decision by a small group. of people in in in western liberal. democracies. It's always a decision by. the voters and to be honest, it's very. very difficult to predict the outcome of. these elections. In the US system, it's. even difficult to predict the outcome of. the primaries. So, if you ask me now um. who is going to run next time for the. Republicans in the in the US, I would. tell you it's difficult to say if it's.

Marco Rubio or JD Vance or somebody. else. And you don't believe that or have you. ever seen a sign that there are some few. bunch of people who invest in a certain. candidate from very young age and build. them up, fund their entire political. career, campaigns and slowly end up. making them one of the most powerful. people in the world. Does that happen? >> Well, I think it depends about which. country we are talking. So in most.

>> talking about democracies, >> yeah, in most European countries, yeah, especially in in in our system for. example, you have a lot of public money. for political parties and the the the. support from the business sector for. political parties is very limited and. not really relevant. So there is. nothing like such a phenomenon. In the. US, of course, it's a it's a different. story. They spend a lot of money on.

campaigns, and there's [snorts] a lot of. um support by individuals or by certain. businesses. But also here, I I think. this should not lead to a conspiracy. theory. Why? Because if you look at the. the numbers, um there was a lot. discussion about Elon Musk and other big. supporters of the Republicans at the. last election. I once looked at the. numbers because I was interested and I. learned that the Democrats, for example,

got even more money than the Republicans. did. So, in the end, both parties spent. more than a billion, but the amount that. the Democrats raised was even higher. So. if you look at these numbers in detail. you you will find out okay there's a lot. of support for the political system but. in the end the group of people that that. like support parties um is is a very. diverse group and I I would not um.

overestimate their influence. I think. the best example was uh the fight that. Elon Musk and Trump had uh just a few. months after he he got in office. So um. I think that's that's the proof um yeah. that that all these theories are u to be. honest not not really true. >> Does this happen like certain media. companies and then a certain powerful. individual rich individuals they all.

come together they'll all become friends. with you and form a certain narrative to. to sway away the entire audience or. people out there or the world power. Does that happen? >> No. In our. >> you become friends with lot of people. who will come and be like, "Hey, we are. on your side and we'll make sure nothing. goes wrong against you.". >> Unfortunately, not at all. I think the. moment you you get in a political. position, um the the the the first thing. that you that you learn is that there's.

a lot of criticism from all sides. Yeah. And no matter which decision you take, there is always a a big amount of people. on the other side. So in in in our. system, um we have uh we have always coalition. governments. We have at the moment five. political parties in in in the. parliament. Um so so there's is a very. wide range of of of of opinions uh in.

the political system which is good but. at the same time it makes it uh quite. challenging. >> but they don't want to become your. friends because I'm assuming the moment. you would become powerful all these. large media giants would want to become. your friend and probably do certain. things to help you out. No, I I. witnessed it uh the opposite. I would. say because of the fact that I'm center. right. Um my feeling is you don't get uh.

treated that well in in uh the the media. um because of the fact that most. journalists, not all of them, but most. journalists are more leaning to the. left. I think that's that's one part of. the the problem of the public debate. that we have at the moment in in in many. European countries also in Germany for. example that like um most of the. traditional media is more on the left. and the far right has become very.

powerful on on social media and I think. this is not ideal for for our system um. but it's it's a fact so you will have uh. for example a lot of voters on the. right, yeah, that do not believe in what. they read or hear or see in traditional. media. And on the other hand, um if you. ask. a lot of like journalists, they would.

see social media or new media or some. podcasts or independent journalists as a. problem for our public debate. So I I. think that the system is is is is. changing. Um nobody really knows where. it's going to end exactly. Um but but. it's definitely not working very well. Um that's that's what I would say. How.

do you win an election? Is it do you. have to control media narrative or is it. a political personality? Is it the. speeches that you give that people. believe in? Is it internal politics and. support that because everyone's. supporting you and you end up winning or. is it like extreme amount of money from. large business corporate like what is. the most important factor in order to. win an election? >> So you have to distinguish between the.

US and and Europe. Yeah. I think it's. it's very different in the in the US for. example you have a two-party system um. money is very important in the campaign. uh in Europe you have uh a multi-arty. system. there's a lot of public money and and. and and less support from businesses or. individuals so you cannot really compare. it in our system in Europe I would say. um you have a certain amount of people.

that always vote for the same party no. matter um which election no matter who. is the candidate and then of course you. have um uh uh people who always take a. new decision at every single election. and here I would say the trend is that. personalities become more and more. important so it's more and more relevant. who is the party leader and uh two.

people follow him and trust him or not. So I would say that's that's the new. trend. If you look at Europe in general, I would say that there is also a shift. to the right. So at most of the last. elections um there was a shift to center. right or faright um parties within. Europe. Also at the next European. election, I would um expect a sh a. further shift to the center right than. the far right. And what contributes like.

which which individual wins let's say. the right is a sentiment of audience. right now then there must be lot of. suitable candidates who want this right. because the multi-arty system. >> what do people believe in like who do. people believe in the one who is very. charming speaker. >> no I I think I think um there it's there. it's very difficult to. uh find one aspect if you ask me most of.

the politicians. that I met um who are successful. are quite different. Yeah. Some uh some. are from rural areas, some are from. cities, men and women, older, younger, um. experience outside of politics, no. experience at all. So I would say it's. it's very difficult to to say if you if. you look for example.

at at Europe right now. some of them are professional. politicians who spent all their life in. politics and then you have for example. in our neighboring country Czech. Republic. um businessman who became a billionaire. and entered uh. politics uh at the end of his career. Yeah. And now won the elections the. second time. In other countries, you. have people like Slovenia, for example,

another neighboring country. He is in. politics all his life since he's a. student. So, it's it's very difficult to. to to say this is the one uh thing. Um I. think it it it's always like um the full. picture of of a party and of a person. that that matters. Who are the world. leaders you like today? >> Um well I I think that there are many. great um personalities. Um in in Europe.

for example I always worked very well. with uh Mar who was uh prime minister of. the Netherlands in these days. He's now. the secretary general of NATO. I think. he's doing a a great job in difficult. days uh uh for NATO. Um you have uh. uh a bunch of uh successful uh prime. ministers uh like pushing uh their. countries in the right direction. I.

think that Maloney is doing a great job. in Italy for example. Uh she did a lot. of like um necessary reforms. Um Italian. economy is doing much better than than. many other countries. So I I think uh. there there's a there's a a number of. very successful leaders. >> All right. Let's go to your life in as a. prime minister when you first became. Okay. The first 24 hours or like the.

moment it happened the moment you got to. know that now you're 31 you won the. election then you're the prime minister. or you're going to become the prime. minister right how were you feeling? >> So um. >> what's the first thought that comes in. your head? So, so the way how you. describe it, it it it sounds a bit like. in a movie. Yeah. The the the reality is. I would say pretty much different. So, first of all, um the day of election is a tough day. >> because you uh get in our case it's.

always on a Sunday. You get some opinion. polling the day before on a Saturday. So. you [clears throat] you you get a. feeling how it could look like, but. nobody knows if the opinion polling is. correct or not. And [snorts] then during. the day. um you wait um and. uh it feels very long uh and uh in in.

our case it's a much smaller country. than India of course but still a few. million people have to go to vote. Um so. around 5:00 in the afternoon you have. the first results and uh so the whole. day uh is a day that you keep on waiting. yeah to hear at 5:00 what the outcome is. and you have uh different um emotions. during the day. So few hours you think.

everything will be fine and you're going. to win. a few hours you think everything. will be terrible and you're going to. lose. So you you don't know till the end. and then of course the moment you you. find out in my case it was very positive. because I ran at two elections and both. time we we won. So 5:00 on these two. Sundays was uh very emotional and. positive. But then the minute after you realize.

you have a lot of things in your mind. that you have to do. So um before the. first election um because the campaign. was so tough and so intense I agreed. with my team that we are going to. celebrate uh if we win and we are not. going to work on Monday and we only go. back to work on Tuesday after elections. But the truth is that we won the. elections. We were super happy about it.

for a few minutes and then we realized. that the next step is that we have to. build a coalition and in these days we. had the feeling that probably the second. and the third would try to build a. coalition against us. So the reality was. that we were celebrating but the idea to. skip the Monday and go back to work on. Tuesday. Of course it did not work out. Everybody was in office Monday morning.

early in order to figure out how it's. possible to build a coalition and how to. make it happen. The reality, especially. in in a system like ours where you have. to build collisions, is that the the. election is is the first step, but then. uh you have to work hard and it normally. takes a few months to to negotiate a. governmental program with a coalition. partner, which is. also very tough and uh takes a lot of.

time and energy. uh and nearly feels uh. like a second campaign that you have to. do. >> This. this was the first time when you became. prime minister. >> Yeah. >> These right the we found out these. >> that's Elizabeth Kirstinger. She was uh. secretary of uh. >> our party. >> So this was your first uh ceremony. >> Uh it looks like Yeah. So the the colors.

were always the same. So it could have. been uh uh 2017 or 2019 but no here it. says 2017. So it was the first uh first. campaign. >> Yeah. >> So and there was the first campaign. first time you took oath. >> Yeah. >> And after oath the reality must have hit. in. Actually before oath only a lot of. responsibility must have hit in right. that you have to now do things. What is. the what is the first document that you.

receive as a prime minister? The moment. you become prime minister, what do you. first receive? What information, what. document, what classified things that. you get which nobody gets to know? >> Well, of of course you get a lot of uh. briefings but um. >> what's the first briefing? >> No, the the the first thing in our. system is after the election that you. have to to negotiate with the other. parties in order to build a coalition. The moment you you are able to build a. coalition uh you decide on the uh.

ministers on the structure of the. government and uh then you get started. of course then you get a lot of like uh. briefings and also intelligence. briefings and you try to to do what you. promised in the election campaigns. Besides the the politicians, you have a. big bureaucracy in our system and there. are different systems around the world. but in ours the bureaucracy does not. change. They stay no matter who wins the. elections. So I would say there is no uh.

uh I would say there's no risk of losing. information. Yeah. because bureaucracy. stays the same and these people keep the. information no matter who um takes over. uh the ministry. >> So the who do you have the first meeting. with the bureaucrats? Um after the negotiation, after you've. become the prime minister, you've taken. the oath, then there's a council of of.

ministers um at the governmental meeting. um which is the main meeting once a week. and of course besides that you have to. uh you have your role within the. parliament. uh you you have uh to work. with the bureaucracy and in our case as. a member state of the European Union. like also the European Council and the. interaction between the 27 member states. and the interaction with Brussels is an. important one. >> and that's the that's on day one all of.

this happens on day one. >> I would say all of them at a certain. extent happens on day one yeah. >> and who who decides what reaches your. desk. >> well that's the most important thing you. have to build a great team um uh around. you. In in our case, it's called uh. cabinet. Yeah. Where every minister and. also the prime minister has a small team. of 10 to 20 people around him. Um and to. be honest like.

this is key. Yeah. I always try to hire. the best people uh for these positions. because if this team is performing the. minister or the prime minister can. easily do a great job. If this team is. not performing uh then you can be the. smartest person on earth and you will. not succeed. >> So let you have ministers or cabinet. ministers right? I'm not talking about. that. I'm talking about who are the. people who are around you like.

>> Yeah. Yeah. That was what I meant. Yeah. And how many people are around you? Like. >> 10 to 20. >> and all 20 can decide what comes at your. desk or only like two or three people. like you have one cos. >> No, there there's there's a structure. like in every company you have a head of. office. Yeah. Who is running this team. um and then you have experts for. different areas and they are working. with the bureaucracy which is huge. Yeah. So this small group has to help.

you to manage 10 thousands of people in. the bureaucracy and at the same time uh. helps you to be as good as possible. prepared for for your work. >> So 10 20 people but then all 20 people. have equal amount of access to you. >> I would say in general yes but of course. sometimes uh some issues are more. important than others. Yeah, it depends. Uh during the days of COVID, there was a.

different focus than during the. migration crisis or now when there is a. war with Ukraine. And who do you end up. in throughout your all your years in. office? >> Who are like two or three people who do. you end up spending most amount of time. with? Is it the head of office or head. of press or uh military guys or in. >> It's all of them. It's all of them. It's. definitely the head of office. It's um. uh the the the head of uh communication.

It's um the people responsible for. different um fields um where you have a. focus on. >> and who's who's one or who are like one. or two people who are always with you no. matter where you go because you have. your own people, right? >> Yeah. But there's not one person who is. always with you. Uh it it always depends. with what you are dealing with. So for. example there's one uh advisor on. foreign policy, there's one uh advisor. on on EU, there's one advisor on.

economy. So it it depends um what you. are working on or whom you are meeting. >> Okay. But not even your. chief of staff or personal secretary is. always with you. >> No, because the chief of staff has to. run the whole thing. So, so if he's with. you in every meeting, he's not able to. do his job properly. Um, so, so it's. it's always a a mixture. Yeah, these key people are people that you.

need in many meetings, but at the same. time, if they are only in meetings with. you the whole day, they cannot do the. rest of their job. So you always have to. find also a good combination how they. spend their time in order to be. efficient as a team. >> Who's who's one person who's. which is a bizarre thing to have around. you as a prime minister? Like I was. looking at uh US president's u pictures. like there's this one person with who is.

with a printer always around him. Have. you seen that? >> No. There's there's this one person who. was with a printer all the time and was. just walking around with a printer with. if the if the president needs anything. >> We are very digital also in these days. [laughter]. >> like right now I'm just seeing like I. think Donald Trump has it. >> this person who's always with the. printer. Is there anyone like that who's. around you? >> No. No. Nothing nothing I would tell you. but uh not really. No. >> Yeah. And [snorts] did you keep all the.

people who were around you? They were. all new or were they from the last prime. minister? >> No, they were all new. And um it was a a. combination of people that I worked with. at the beginning when I started in. politics, people I worked with in the. field of integration, um people from my. days um in the foreign ministry and and. then people that I uh hired in addition. when I became prime minister. So it was.

also a good uh combination from many. different uh areas. As a prime minister, when you hire a team around you, when. you look for people around you, what is. one or two traits that you look for? Is. it trust or expertise to manage. diplomacy and bureaucracy. or experience or just be like just. revolution, rebel, new people or new. ideas? >> It's always a combination because um. what's the highest? Look, I to be honest.

um. you need all of that. Yeah. Because if. you trust someone but he doesn't. perform, he can be a great friend but he. should not be somebody who works for. you. If you trust someone and he. performs but he's not brave enough to. push necessary changes, he will not be. able to make your life easier. Yeah. Uh. in achieving your goals. So, so you.

always need all these aspects. I think. ideally it's a combination of being. loyal, being. great in the area you work at and being. brave enough to to like push for. necessary reforms even if people fight. back. >> How many intelligence agencies you have? >> Internal and external. >> Internal and external. And those people.

must stay the same throughout or do you. change them as you become prime. minister, the head of. >> No, it's part of the bureaucracy. >> and you don't have power to change it. because how in US they make uh every. president have their own candidates to. choose who's this head of CIA or head of. FBI. >> Yeah. Look in in our system it's it's. different than in the US. So in in many. European systems um there is no. automatical change in bureaucracy.

because of political elections. In the. US it's a completely different system. which means that not only the ministers. change but as you said also the key. people uh in the bureaucracy also the. the the key players in intelligence. agencies uh or also the diplomats here. for example all their ambassadors are. political appointees. So that's that's. that's a different system than ours and. um the system in most European. countries. >> So how do you know that the intelligence.

agencies are telling you the truth? >> Well, you you you never know. But the. main advantage of uh political positions. or the main advantage of being prime. minister is that you can speak to a lot. of people that you can call a lot of. people and they will pick up the phone. So what I always try to do is to get a. lot of information from different people. inside my country, outside my country,

people who are politically with me, people who are politically on another. side. And I think if you do it like. this, you always get different opinions, but in the end you you get you get the. right view on on every single issue. So. that was always my approach and I was. always very happy with uh that style. >> And do you have a personal decision. making framework because as a prime. minister as head of state you have to. make decisions all the time and you know.

that every decision will benefit a lot. of people but also might affect a lot of. people at the same time and there's no. one decision which is right. >> The most important thing is to be aware. that not all your decisions can be. right. Yeah. And you. have to be okay with it because I know a. lot of people because of the fact that. they know that not all decisions can be. right get very scared to take decisions.

and I think that's one of the main. problems in politics. You have to be. okay with the fact that not everything. can be right and you have to be brave to. take decisions because that's that's the. main thing you have to do in such a. position. Um and that's what I always. tried. >> But is there a way or a framework or a. concept that you that you have in your. mind before you take a decision or is it. always gut- driven in the end? What I.

always tried is to talk with many. different people who have different. background and views on a certain issue. and this helped me. to get different information and then in. the end um used this as a basis to take. my decision and I'm somebody I I love to. work with people. Yeah. I love to work. within a team. So I I was never lonely. in these uh decision making process. Um.

it was always something that happened. within the team. Um and that always gave. me a lot of comfort to to have like. intensive discussions with in the team. that took sometimes the the whole day or. till late at night um till we were at. the point where we felt ready to take a. decision. Do you hire external. consultants to help you? >> I would say that's the wrong framing, but yes, we tried to have a lot of.

people in our system from outside of. politics. So, I always tried to to have. a lot of um exchange with the private. sector, with business people, with. people from universities. Like I I think. this exchange is very helpful. Yeah. If. if you're a politician and you only. communicate with other politicians or. the bureaucracy, um I think that's that's [snorts] a key.

problem. So we always try to do it uh in. a different way. >> But do you end up hiring let's say the. BCG or McKenzies of of the world? >> Uh. not governments do that, right? >> Not as companies. Um but but um yes my. head of cabinet worked at BCG before my. deputy head of cabinet worked at um uh. McKenzie before. So I I appreciate um.

the the structure and the skill set that. people learn when they work in these. companies. >> Do you have friends when you become. prime minister? >> Of course. Uh. >> or is it very lonely? >> No, not lonely at all to to be honest. Um my friends did not change. So I have. uh a few good friends from my days at. school, from university, uh from my early days when I started in. politics. Um so it's a mixture and they.

are always the same. It hasn't changed. >> No, like the new people because now. everybody wants in the country wants to. become your friend. >> No, I don't know how it is in India in. in in in Austria. I would say it's very. different. Yeah. So like uh I guess um. so you have a few close friends. Yeah. That are your personal friends. Um in my. case as I told you from school, from. university, from uh my early days in. politics and then you have people that.

you like or that you work with or that. you have to do with because of your job, but but that's not close friends and or. close personal friends. And uh of course. then you have uh to to serve your. country. So you have a lot of people. where you have interaction with but. that's also like uh I don't know how to. describe it but it's not like deep. friendship. >> And. do you trust as you become prime.

minister like new people because. everyone who wants to become your friend. they would want some kind of. transaction. Well, so how do you trust like who is. just there for. transaction and who's there to just. genuinely become your friend? I would. say it depends a bit how you define. friendship. Like for me close personal. friends are people that I know for many. years that I uh uh would go on vacation.

with together. So so that that's my. close personal friends. Um and and this. group is very limited and I think if you. keep this group very limited. >> Tell me a security like how does it. change when you're not a prime minister. versus when you become prime minister. because there must be some protocol you. must be following. of of course there's. some uh some protocol but. um I I would say like. of course there's some protocol but but.

it's it's uh not as most people think. Yeah. So if you look at uh people who. are in office all of them have an. iPhone. Yeah. So it's it's not so. different to yours or mine. um all of. them have like uh normal conversations. with people and and yes of course um. there's some kind of protocol if you. have calls with the US or other. superpowers. um sometimes in meetings within Brussels.

um. they try to keep it confidential which. is not always easy um so sometimes there. are meetings there without phones but. but in today's world it's it's not So. easy I would say. >> And when you meet or when you call other. world leaders, everything is recorded. >> No, not at all. >> Everything is secured line. But how do. you know that the other country is not. recording or anything? >> Oh, you mean that other countries. record? Of course, nobody knows like uh.

uh you you can you can use an open line. or you can use apps that you also use. like WhatsApp or signal but um. is is it is it possible that somebody. listens to that? Of of course it's. technically possible. Yeah. >> So you're always cautious when you talk. to someone else or do you trust other. world leaders? >> Well, I I I think it's it's it's good to. have a relaxed approach on that. Yeah. Um if you if you do things that scare.

you to death if somebody knows then yeah. you shouldn't be in such a position. No. and that in private conversations people. sometimes talk a bit different than uh. in a public statement that's also a. reality. So I think a relaxed approach. with that uh is is the right thing. Yeah. Uh, would you in a private. conversation formulate things a bit. different than in your podcast?

Sometimes probably yes. Would you. probably do a joke that you would not do. in front of the camera? Sometimes. probably yes. If somebody knows that, would it kill you? No. Because like. everybody is a human being and that's. normal. And I think like the more often. people will find out that this is normal. life. Yeah. And that every person who. has an uh and that every person who has.

a powerful position also is a human. being in the end. Yeah. The more normal. it will get. >> Describe me step by step. Tell me about. your day as a prime minister. Give me. one of your busiest days like what would. you do? Where at what time would you. wake up what's next? I want to know step. by step. Give me the most dumb down. version. >> I always stood up early in the morning. I I did sports in the morning. Then I I. went to the office. >> What time would you wake up?

>> Around 6 something like that. Um. >> then you would go play tennis. >> No, I went for a run or or did some like. went to the gym and then I went to the. office. Um, I always traveled a lot. That means I would say in average I was. probably. two days a week outside of the country, probably one day a week traveling around. within the country and the rest of the. week I was in in the office. So probably. normally half a day off, sometimes one.

day off. So yeah, not so not so. different to And what's your what was. your biggest priority? As a prime minister, what is your. biggest priority? Because. >> you must be getting bombarded with. thousands of work or important matters. every day. It's foreign relations, is. intelligence, is uh immigration, the. NATO conversation, the uh public health. >> My biggest my biggest priorities my.

biggest priority was always to get done. what we promised in the election. So I. always tried to. to fulfill what we said before. So for. example, in my first government, we had. a tough approach on migration. We cut uh. uh red tape. We reduced the taxes. Um we. managed a a governmental budget surplus. So these were things that like it's easy.

to promise these things, but it's it's. difficult to deliver. So I always had a. strong focus on on getting these things. done. >> Okay. And can a large country or the. powerful country bully a smaller. country? >> Of course. >> they do that. >> like US and China. Can they bully? >> Of course. But I think what we always. managed quite well is to have a a a good. relation with with most countries in the.

world and especially with the with the. superpowers. Um Austria is a neutral. country. Um we are part of the European. Union. We always had um good relations. with the west and the east. So I I think. we we always we always managed um this. very well. How do you how do you manage. to have relationship with Russia and US. at the same time? You're not a member of. NATO, right? Austria is not a member of. NATO. >> I would say in the in the past this was. possible. Now, of course, it has changed.

completely because with the war uh in. Ukraine, the the position of of the West. and especially of the European Union is. is very clear and there's no. relationship at all with with Russia. But um 10 years ago, 15 years ago, of. course, the the world looked uh. different in these days. >> You have met Vladimir Putin multiple. times. you have met Donald Trump. >> as as head of state.

>> Mhm. >> So how both of their approaches are. different when it comes to leadership or. negotiation style or talking to. >> Well, they are very different. Um so I. would say Putin is is very controlled, very prepared. Um I would say in many. aspects as he's described in the media. and um Trump is a very untypical. politician. Yeah. He's not diplomatic at.

all. Yeah. Um and and and so. whoever meets him the first time and. expects a classical political. conversation is is surprised because. he's just very different. Yeah, I think. that's also one of the reasons why um. for some European leaders it it feels so. difficult to work with him because he's. yeah very different than most of the. other politicians.

Did you did you find it difficult when. you were having a conversation with him. because you've described his negotiation. tactic before s? >> Yeah, look uh we are a small country. Um. so so there's no negotiation between a 9. million country and the superpowers in. the world. Um if there's a negotiation, it's between the US and the EU um at. this level. But I met uh Trump and Putin. and Xiinping and I my meeting with Trump. was not difficult at all. It was it was.

very interesting because he's so. different. My meeting with him was was. was very friendly. It was not. problematic uh at all. Um but yeah, it. was different than typical other. political meetings. What was the most. interesting part? Tell me one one thing. about all three the names that you that. you have taken right now. Well, I think. with Shishinping, you really feel. that they are long-term thinking and.

that there is a a very clear strategy. for China and uh China's role in in the. world. Um. Putin is is very cold, very prepared. Um, nothing. happens by accident. and Trump is. very different, very undiplomatic. and uh, always good for a surprise.

Always good for a surprise. And. what do you think is you said China has. a long-term thinking, right? What do you. think is China's ambition today? Well, my feeling is that uh China. believes that they. dominated the world uh most of the time. in the past. Um and that they were. always ahead. um that those years where.

Europe or others were ahead are. a mistake or just like a short period of. time and that they. will always remain to be the dominant. power in the world. Um and to be honest. when it comes to tech and AI we have to. admit that they are far ahead. There's a. race between the US and China. Europe is.

playing no role in this race. And if you. ask me today. who I think that is going to win this. race, I I think that there are good chances. that that China will be ahead in the. end. Um also when you look at the rest. of the world um China is very dominant. in in many countries in the world um. with a totally different approach while.

uh the west tried to work with. development cooperation or humanitarian. aid in Africa and other parts of the. world. China had a totally different. approach of investment and um creating. influence. um and I would say they have been very. successful with that so far and. based on your experience. because you you said that there's a race.

going on right and Europe has lost. clearly at this point what is the first. sign that the nation is losing. >> I I think the main problem is always if. you lose competitiveness. Yeah. So in. our globalized world, especially for. wealthy European countries that are. exportdriven, if you lose competitiveness, that means that you lose wealth. And if.

you lose wealth, that means that you are. not able to finance anymore the social. welfare system, uh the schools, the uh. security, the pension system. So. everything where a lot of people still. think that Europe is attractive because. of these systems and I think um there's. a big risk for Europe that if we don't. change a lot of things that things will.

get worse things will get worse from. here. Do you think America is making. similar mistakes as Europe? I think the. US is not really comparable because if. you look at the US, they still always. manage to have a very strong economic. growth. It's mainly tech and AIdriven. And this is what Europe is missing. And. so I would say that in general because.

of the strong economic growth um there's. always a reason to be very optimistic. for the US. But when you look at from. the inside right now a lot of people are. getting divided and that was. that was one of the key themes in Europe. as well that inside people were actually. getting divided and that's why a lot of. European leaders were responding to. press and media for short-term gains not. thinking long-term strategically you. have also said that before right so do.

you think US is doing the same thing. they're responding to the immediate now. and getting more and more polarized. >> of Of course, that's always a risk in in. a western liberal democracy. No, if you. have elections every few years uh and. then you complain that politicians are. uh thinking in election terms, it's it's it's it's okay to complain, but it's also like a reality in our. system. Um, of course that's different. in other systems like in in in China.

that are not democratic. But um, I would. say the the main thing why I'm always. optimistic about the US is is is because. of the economy. The US always manages it. to be a driver of innovation and to be. extremely strong when it comes to tech. and AI. If you look at AI, AI is not one. sector of economy. AI will dominate and.

and and change all sectors of our. economy. And because of the fact that. it's so disruptive, I think it's really key to be strong in. this field and the US is managing it uh. and is one of the two super nations in. this field. So that's the reason if you. ask me for the next 101 15 years I'm I'm. I'm very optimistic uh on the US economy.

compared to Europe and other parts of. the world. >> and compare it with China who do you. think which economy is more predictable. >> I think it's very difficult to say but. on AI and tech I think these are by far. at the moment the two leading nations in. the world and then you have some smaller. countries like uh Israel. and others that are also hubs for. talents and compared to their size are. extremely innovative but the two main.

superpowers are definitely the US and. China. >> Forget AI for a second like just look at. every sector everything that's going on. in the world. How do you see it today? What sense do you make? Well, I think. that we will. continue to live in a multi-polar world. and the US and China will will stay um. the superpowers. Yeah, I don't think. that there will be just one superpower.

in the end that dominates everything. And do you think everything which is. happening right now is it happening. good, bad, okay? Are we headed towards. uh the crash? Are we headed towards. instability? Are we headed towards. unpredictability? Or it's just this is. normal. I look people always uh easily. are quite negative and think that it has.

never been as tough as now and now we. live in in so difficult times. I think. that the the truth is there's always. something good and something bad. There's always ups and downs. If you if. you look at the world today, uh of. course we live in a more unsecure world. There's a war going on in Ukraine. there's a war in the Iran. Um there are. new geopolitical tensions. But on the. other hand, uh so many people have been.

lifted out of poverty. Um there's a lot. of like positive development in in many. countries around the world. Um. a lot of countries are doing. economically quite well. Yeah. um for. for others that have been successful for. a long time like Europe, it has become. much more difficult. So I I think it's. it's it's. wrong to always believe that the days. where we live in are so difficult and. the world was much better in the past. I.

I think that's that's the wrong. approach. If you ask me, I think the. next few years will be extremely. interesting because of AI because AI. will be so disruptive. I think we do not. even have uh a clue like how strong this. transformation will be. Um it will bring. more productivity and will lead to more. wealth and growth.

But on the same but at the same time it. will also change a lot of jobs. dramatically. and um so a lot of people will need to. adapt to that and and I think this will. really be transformative. uh and I think this will dominate um the. next years to come. Do you think the big. change in world order is coming? Like. till now everybody followed the top. three four institutions in the world.

like the UN and one country was. dominating everything. Right? Now we. have two countries. >> Yeah. uh uh in some ways and then a lot. of people argue that going forward. because of rise of AI and technology. largely the change in order will happen. and it will be run by the tech tech. billionaires of the world. >> Yeah. I I I don't believe in the last. sentence but of course we live in a. multipolar world. Um. >> you don't believe the tech billionaires. will or tech large tech companies will.

run the world. No, I I think that the. large tech companies will have a major. role, but it it will not be only them. running the world as you said. I think. it will be geographically like we will. have a. different centers. Yeah. Um we will. probably continue since like we have the. war in Ukraine live in a way [snorts] in. a split world. Yeah. and a divided we. will probably continue. I I feel since.

the war in Ukraine that we live in kind. of a divided world. I I think this will. probably continue. Um as we said before. we will have like superpowers like the. US and and and and China which will stay. very dominant. Um I think that we will. have um some like countries that will do. extremely well. For example, I'm very. optimistic on the Gulf countries. Of. course, it's now difficult with the war.

in Iran, but in general, I'm very. optimistic for the whole region. And um. of course, tech uh companies will will. have their role, but it's not that they. will alone dominate the world. >> You spoke about Gulf countries. Uh do. you think countries in West Asia. they've lost trust after the recent war? Like everybody wanted to be there. Everybody felt like that's the safest.

place. Everybody felt like that's the. future. >> Yeah. >> Everybody wanted to be in UAE involved. in with Dubai and Abu Dhabi especially. >> I it will stay like this. I'm very. optimistic. >> But now that you like have you seen any. change in the world? I have a very. positive view on this part of the world. and if you ask me I think short term. there are difficulties for sure but um. mid and long-term I'm very optimistic. I. think that what the UAE built is. exceptional and of course some people.

left but most of the people who left at. the beginning of the war already came. back. Yeah. And uh you will you will see. that uh um this only will have a. short-term impact and not uh a long-term. uh impact on on the UAE. >> It's you don't feel it'll be a problem. at all or when you when you meet other. world leaders now do you see a sense of. some uncertainty? Of course, there's now.

some uncertainty and as long as as. there's a war in Iran and things are not. solved. Um the situation is not perfect. Yeah. Um but um the UAE is an extremely. resilient country. um they managed to be. super successful, exceptional. um in in so many different aspects and. um you will see that that they will be. very quick in adopting in dealing with.

the situation and. that's the reason why why I'm very. optimistic and on Iran look. this regime will not continue forever. and the moment there's a regime change. and this country opens up a country of. nearly 100 million people. Um this will. be another boost for the region. So in. general I'm very optimistic. Where do.

you see for a young person where are. better opportunities. in terms of job in terms of startup in. terms of just let's say if I'm young. 20some I want to start my career and. make a lot of wealth. America or West. Asia? >> I I I think both are great places. I. took my decision. Uh I started my. business in in Middle East or as you. call it, West Asia. Um I spent at least. a week a month uh in Abu Dhabi. Uh and.

and I really enjoy it. Um and I think. the the combination of um talent and. capital that you find in this region is. exceptional and I'm I'm very happy that. uh yeah I started my company together. with my co-founders between Tel Aviv, Abu Dhabi and Vienna. So for us that's. the that's the perfect fit. And. circling back to your policy against. immigrants versus America. America is a.

great model where immigrants come in and. it works because we were talking about. tech AI. Largely every. major company is run and led by. immigrants, right? So this country has. definitely shown a successful model of. inviting immigrants and leading it. >> Yeah. I think. >> what did America do, right? I think you. you have to be precise. It's not uh in. favor or against immigrants. It's the. question um who is allowed to come and.

who is not allowed to come. It's the. question who takes the decision. Yeah. And I was always against the policy. where the smugglers decide who is. allowed to enter the country and not the. government. So if you ask me, uh illegal. immigration, that's the big problem. uncontrolled immigration. That's the big. problem. Um, and within Europe, for. example, you anyway have the freedom of. movement, which means that people from.

other European countries can decide to. work and to live in Austria or Germany, and it's super easy uh for them to move. and and and and get started there. Um. but illegal migration and big flows of. illegal migration that's a problem for. our societies. >> But what did America do right? Because. that's for a for any country I suppose. China is an exception model but.

attracting immigrants or attracting. talent from all around the world is a. very essential part. >> Yeah. I I'm not sure if only America is. a positive example. Um I would say that. all those countries. who really control their immigration are. successful. If you look at the UAE for. example, if you look at Singapore or. other countries, if you attract talent, but at the same time, you don't let. anybody in who causes trouble, then you.

can build a great society out of it. Um, but if you have too many troublemakers, uh, then everything falls apart. And um. if you look at the US I I think it's a. combination of both. I I think they. attracted a lot of talent which. definitely was good for the US but also. if if you look at um the public opinion. there's a lot of problem as well with. illegal immigration. So I I think it's.

not about the question migration yes or. no. It's always the question who is. coming. Is it people who are. contributing or not? Is it legal or. illegal? I think these are the main. questions that have to be discussed. >> But you can never decide whether the. immigrants will contribute or no, right? You can in the beginning you open doors, then immigrants come, they struggle a. lot, they hustle a lot and they end up. >> I I completely disagree. I completely.

disagree. >> Why? Because a lot of immigrants who are. probably they're billionaires today in. America, they came as broke people who. left their country out of. >> of course you can always have positive. examples. Absolutely. But in general um. I it's very like easy to say if if a. model works or not. So if you attract. people that are well educated, that have. a job the moment they arrive, that have.

an income, that pay taxes, that learn. the language, it's different than if you. attract people uh that don't speak the. language, don't find a job, uh get paid. through the welfare system. So there's a. big difference. And I think the the. problem with the migration crisis in. Europe was that like of course you have. a lot of example examples where it went. well but you also have like a large. number of people where it was very.

difficult to integrate them in our. societies. >> Got it. Okay. Talking about. entrepreneurship. You are an. entrepreneur now. >> Yes. >> You left the office. Why did you leave. politics? You were the prime minister. Why did you leave? No, >> it it was uh very uh complicated and and. not very pleasant because um my first. coalition was with the far right. My. second coalition was uh with the Greens.

which was very difficult. Um and um they. controlled the Ministry for Justice. uh. did a few like personal changes there on. a on a top level and um after co um they. started two investigations uh against. me. Uh and to be honest for me it was. very frustrating to do my work uh on one. hand and on the other hand uh always had.

to fight back on on on these uh. investigations. and I became father for the first time. exactly in these days. So uh I decided. after 10 years uh in government to to. leave office uh and start a new chapter. in my life. And to be honest, for me it. was a great decision because first of. all I had a court case out of these. investigations which I won. Uh second uh.

becoming father and have a bit more time. with my kid than I would have had in. office was also a great experience. And. third, I talked so much about. entrepreneurship. uh and the need that people are brave. and start a company and create jobs when. I was in office that at the certain. point of time it was it felt right to do. it myself. Um so yeah it it's now uh 4.

years since I have left and to be honest. uh it was a very interesting uh journey. in the last few years. Um and uh yeah, I. always loved uh serving my country, but. I also enjoyed pretty much the last four. years as an entrepreneur and the father. of two kids now. >> So you were. the the party there. They put cases on. you while you were the prime minister. >> Yes. something that sounds a bit uh. weird for many people and uh it was uh.

yeah like. >> while you're still in the office as as. prime minister you were going on trials. and you were fighting your court case. >> I think if you look at uh many western. countries unfortunately using these um. investigations. uh have become political tools in in in. many um campaigns or even in any. political systems and I think it's not a. positive development of our western.

liberal democracies because whenever. something like this starts you have a. lot of attention you have thousands of. media articles you have a lot of people. that believe it and in the end um it. sometimes takes years the outcome is. zero um and I think this is a. development that is not very uh helpful. for our system. But unfortunately, if. you look around in in Europe and also in.

the US, it has become uh more and more. part of uh of the political fights and. campaigns. >> and do you think that you. they put in case they put case on you. and then you ended up winning. >> right and in the end all those cases. were thrashed and they were all wrong. because you then won the court case, right? Do you think you would have won. the court case while you were still in. office. >> if you would have not left politics?

>> Yeah, I I have you. I first of all, you. never know, but yes, I think so. Yeah. Um. >> or do you think they would have made it. impossible for you to win if you were. still in the politics? >> No, I I think I would have won anyway. But um it's very problematic that. something like this takes years. Um, and. yeah, that it needs a lot of money, a. lot of time and years till you can prove. that everything was just made up and.

Um, but um, yeah, unfortunately that's uh part of uh the. reality of our system. Now, what I'm. trying to understand is these were these. competitors who wanted office, right? They put in cases on you. They wanted. your party to lose, you to lose. Then. and then at some point after out of. frustration of all of this you decided. to leave politics and then after that in. couple of years you ended up winning.

Do you think it was possible for you to. win if you would have not left the. politics? >> I think so. I think so. Yeah. But but. it's. >> but then why did you leave? >> Yeah. Well, as I told you before, I. think it it it it was a bunch of of. reasons. So first of all, if you do. something for 10 years, especially if. you're a young person, that's a long. time. Yeah. >> Second, I I had two election campaigns, the migration crisis, COVID, so I also.

felt a bit tired. Yeah. And exhausted. Um then um I. I I really felt that it was unfair to. have these investigations. So I I had a. lack of trust in our system which was. also not a positive motivation to. continue to work. and um the birth of my.

son uh like was was also like a main. driver why I thought okay it's it's a. good timing to to open a new chapter in. life and to [clears throat] be honest uh. looking back now I'm very thankful um. that I took this decision because. I also learned so much new things in the. last few years yeah it gave me a. completely new perspective to be an. entrepreneur, to start a business, um to.

uh spend most of my time outside of. Austria, outside of the European Union. in totally different systems to see the. advantages and disadvantages of other uh. regions of this world. So that was also. like uh a great uh time for me. personally. >> Do you miss office? Well, I I I always try not to say no as.

an answer to uh uh this question because. if you say no, then it it feels like. politics is something negative. Yeah. And and and I feel the opposite. So I. always enjoyed it a lot. It was a a huge. privilege um to to serve Austria and the. people of Austria. um and and and I. always enjoyed it but at the same time. uh it was it was the right decision for. me uh to do something new and I also.

enjoy what I'm doing now. So I'm I'm. very thankful for both experiences. >> Tell me. one good thing about being a prime. minister or one perk which you don't. have anymore as an entrepreneur. Well, I. don't know if you don't have it anymore, but I would say what is very positive. about being in office is if you're. interested in different opinions and and. perspectives,

nearly everybody picks up the phone if. you call. So if you have an issue where. you need an answer or a solution or if. you'll like try to take the right. decision and you want to hear very. different opinions and a wide range of. different perspectives, nearly. everybody, even people who don't like. you or who don't vote for you, nearly. everybody picks up the phone and gives. you an answer. So I think that's.

something very positive. If you are. interested in different opinions, you. you can always get it and then try to. take your decision. >> And why did you decide to become an. entrepreneur? >> To be honest, it was a tough decision. and I struggled uh with this decision a. bit at the beginning. Why? Because I. always worked in in very big. organizations. So for me at this time it. felt the most natural to uh take a.

management position in a big corporate. and um there were a few offers and I um. really considered it but at the same. time like a few friends told me you. always like worked like an entrepreneur. You did it in in in politics but like. the the spirit was the same. And so. I. I thought it it might made sense. And in. the end, I think the main reason was I.

spoke so much about entrepreneurship. when I was in politics. I always said. that we need people that start companies. that that uh create jobs. So I felt even. if it's tough, it's the right thing to. do. And so in the end, thanks God, I was. brave enough to Yeah. >> Try what's your story? How did you meet. your co-founder? How did you get into. this business? >> To be honest, it was um a great. coincidence. So when I left office um. the first company that I started was an.

advisory firm um where I worked with u. few different uh organizations and and. and and individuals. I worked with Peter. Teal and I worked in in in the UAE. I. figured out very quickly that that. at a certain point of time I would like. to do something more entrepreneurial. than just being an adviser. So I uh. started to travel around and and looked.

for potential partners to start. something together with. And I was at a. few places in the US and also in Middle. East. And one day I I went to Tel a Viv. and a friend of mine told me that he. would gather the the most interesting. tech people in in Israel and arrange a. dinner for me. And when I arrived at the. airport, he texted me, "I'm so sorry, my. wife is in hospital. I cannot come, but. I sent somebody to pick you up.".

>> [snorts]. >> So I was standing at the airport. had this message on my phone thought. okay uh two days uh waste of time um. because without him it it it will not. really work out. So I already like. looked uh if there were uh uh earlier. flights back. But then there was the guy. whom he sent standing next to me at the. airport and looked at me and said, "Are.

you Sebastian?" And I said, "Yes." And I. said, "Who are you?" And he said, "I'm. here to babysit you for the next two. days." And I said, "What do you mean?". And he said, "I'm your driver." So I. entered his car. and uh we drove to the city center and I. did a phone call in the car. So we. didn't really talk a lot. And then at. the first uh meeting I realized that. everybody was very respectful and.

everybody knew him. So I told him, "Okay, so what are you doing when you're. not driving me around or when you're not. my babysitter?" And he said, "Ah, you. don't know." I said, "No, I don't know.". And he said, "I'm the founder of NSO. I. invented the spy software Pegasus.". Um, so I did my meetings, met a lot of. interesting people, but after the. meetings, I told him, "Look, give me a. demo and show me what you what you. built." And he's a very charismatic.

person. So after the two days in in in. Tel Aviv, I in the end told him uh look. thank you for for taking care and. helping out because my my friend was not. able to arrange all that. Um I really. enjoyed it. Um but what I really would. like to do is I would like to start. something with you but not offensive. cyber. uh and he laughed and uh said, "Uh that's great because I would also.

like to do something with you, but what. do you expect? I'm I'm the founder of. the biggest offensive cyber company in. the world." So I told him, "Look, I was. prime minister. Now I'm not anymore." So. probably something in your life is going. to change as well. And then give me a. call. And a few months later, he left. the company, sold his shares, and I was. literally the first person that he. called. and he said, "Do you still want. to do something together?" I said, "Of. course." So, we met and then it took us.

a while to figure out what to do. exactly. And in the end, together with a. third co-founder, we we started dream an. AI cyber company. um with the idea that. in the past nations were super nations. if they had nuclear and we thought in. the future nations will be super nations. that control cyber, AI and quantum. Quantum is still very early. So we.

wanted to focus on AI and cyber and uh. we started uh Dream a company that now. does sovereign AI and uh AI based cyber. security for um countries in Middle. East, Southeast Asia and Europe. Nice. So earlier you were in the. this is this is very interesting. So you. as a prime minister earlier was in a. position where you wanted to protect. your country, right? And your co-founder.

was in a position where he wanted to. attack people and gather information. Now you've come together to defend and. build a mechanism a lot because he. because he was the one who would enter. people's computers and software. He. understands what are the. vulnerabilities. So now you're building. the defense mechanism. >> Yeah. Absolutely. So he also of course. worked only for governments. Yeah. Um. because it's a very regulated u business. and industry, but he worked for. government and agencies um to fight.

crime with his offensive cyber products. Um and yeah, when we started the. company, the bet was that probably the. best knowledge to defend um critical. infrastructure and governments um is. gathered by people who have offensive. experience. And our idea was that if we. combine all the experience from the.

offensive cyber with the superpower of. AI, we can build a platform that is able. to protect against the future risks of. AI based cyber attacks. This was the. idea when we started and to be honest it. um yeah happened exactly like this. because if you look at the big threats. today it's not hackers anymore. Yeah.

The big threat today is that hackers. have superpower because they use AI. >> [snorts]. >> To give you an example, in the past, if. somebody wanted to orchestrate the. massive attack, he needed a big team, a. lot of money, and months to find a few. vulnerabilities, so-called zero days, in order to be able. to start an attack. Today if a hacker.

just one person has the right AI. capacities he gets not a few but. hundreds of zero days and not within a. few months but within a few minutes. So. I think that. the that we will see cyber attacks at. big scale um in in the future that. nobody was thinking about the few years. ago and the only way to protect is with.

AI. When you sit with your. with potential partners and clients who. are trusting you now do they find it. more difficult to trust your partner. because he was earlier in the business. of spying? >> Not at all. >> Or do they find it more comforting. because they feel like he knows. everything and probably the best? >> Absolutely. Because look, if you. work with somebody, especially in this.

field, um you want to reduce your risk. and you can do that if you work with the. best talent in the world. And the best. talent um to defend will always be. people who have a lot of experience on. the other side. Yeah. So I think um one. of the reasons why the company is so. successful is because we were really. able um to gather great talent um and. and to to train a model um which is.

exceptional because of course what is. doable with AI today but also because of. the quality of the people working on it. This is such an incredible. startup I would say. I mean just I I. don't know the exact mechanics of what. exactly you do but just from the idea. point of view this sounds so exciting. because he was with Israel. >> the country known for their accuracy in.

cyber. >> in cyber and in gathering the. information and he was one of the key. people in the world to help them do that. and Pegasus we all know what that. software has created in the world in. fact India knows a lot because there. were a lot of people who uh lot of. people who were compromised because of. that. >> uh that software that whatever you call. that virus right he built that and now.

he's helping you build a defense. mechanism around it on the paper it. sounds so like too good to be real it. was a long journey yeah because um the. the idea is easy yeah but but to really. build it is a lot of hard work so When. we started three and a half years ago, um we started just us. Yeah. Then we. hired uh a management, we hired the. first employees and and we built it uh. step by step. Um now one month ago, we.

closed our last uh round. We raised 260. million at the valuation of 3 billion. Um and we are now working in several. countries in Europe and also in Middle. East and in Southeast Asia. And um. besides the um cyber security platform. that we offer, we also entered in the. field of sovereign and AI. So we we. built AI solutions um that governments.

can own, operate and control 100%. themselves. um solutions that also work. on prem and airgapped so with no. connection to the internet which is. something that you need especially if. you have sensitive data. So um I think. because of the world we live in and all. the tensions that we have, you will see. that more and more countries will try to. be more independent to have their.

sovereign solutions when it comes to AI. because as we discussed before AI is not. like only one aspect or only one area of. uh uh of the economy. It's it's so. transformative that it will become part. of the critical infrastructure and every. country as it controls its energy. infrastructure or uh its water uh supply. every country will also try um to be as.

independent as possible um on on their. AI. >> Okay. I have last two three questions. for you probably short questions but. in your experience as a prime minister. and now as an entrepreneur. what are three things which every. country should control and just keep it. to themselves and not give it to someone. else.

for a great future for a great outcome. to protect their country truly I think. it's a difficult question But um. I will try to to give you my thoughts. So first of all I think for a country it. really matters who lives there. Yeah. Um. what society are we talking about? So. coming back to what we discussed before, I think every country should control. who immigrates um who enters the country.

um who is part of of the country, who is. part of the society. Second, security um at a certain level. Yeah, every country should be able to defend. its internal uh and external security. And third I think in the. modern world that we are living um the. third thing is probably to control its.

own data uh and also to make a maximum. out of it. >> You don't feel every country should have. their own sources of energy and not be. dependent on other countries for energy. >> Ideally yes but it's it's not so easy. Yeah. Um because of course uh energy is. relevant uh rare earths are relevant but. if you look at um at the world yeah um.

it it's not so easy for every single. country. I think Austria is in a very um. privileged position when it when it. comes to that. I have last three. question which ask everybody. Okay. First is. when were you the most powerless in your. life? When did you feel the most. powerless? I think. in the days uh when they started the. investigations against me um because I.

didn't do anything wrong. Yeah. I worked. hard. 24/7. Yeah. Um and. um it was very difficult to to fight. back and I just knew uh it will take a. long time and I knew in the meanwhile. there's not a lot that I can do against. these wrong accuses.

Um and I lost a lot of trust in the. system in these days. So probably my. answer would be these days. What scares. a prime minister of a country? >> Well, I would say in my days it was. definitely the first days of COVID. Yeah. Um because. there were so many decisions to be taken. and at the same time there was.

such a lack of knowledge. So we we did. not have enough information and it was. super difficult to to get information in. these days um because it was such a new. phenomenon to the world. >> So that scared you though losing lives. and yeah. >> what would you do in co death? Yeah. And. also like to to be in a situation where. you know that you have to take decisions. and at the same time it's impossible to.

get all the information that you would. like to have in order to take the right. decisions. So but what my question was. more around let me be more specific with. not a specific situation like co was a. specific situation. I'm asking on an. everyday basis we all live with certain. fears. Sometime we have fear of losing. trust, losing money, losing family. member, uh security of ourself or. business loss or whatever. Everybody has. their own fears, right?

>> What was your biggest fear as a prime. minister that I'm asking, not a specific. situation? I think my my biggest fear. was always losing control because you. have to manage such a big team. Um so. many people involved. uh you cannot oversee everything but at. the same time you are responsible for. everything. Yeah. You cannot take every. decision yourself but at the same time.

uh people will always hold you. accountable for every single decision. that is taken within your system. somewhere and [snorts] that was every. day I would say my my biggest fear. >> Would you wake up with that fear every. day? >> I woke up with this fear every day and I. went to bed with this fear every day. [laughter]. Okay. [gasps]. The last question is. I ask this everyone. and it's about personal cost right. What.

is the cost of becoming the youngest. prime minister in the world? To be honest I think there was no real. cost and I I do not regret it because I. um I'm I'm very thankful for for the 10. years in government. Um it it was. stressful, it was intense, it was a lot. of pressure. Um but I I don't have the.

feeling that I missed something or that. I would have preferred to spend my uh my. my time in a different way. Do people. still treat you differently? >> What do you mean by differently? Like. when you were when you were in the. office, people would deal with you very. differently. Let's say every restaurant. owner would treat you very differently. today. Do they do the same thing or not? >> So I I don't know if it's really about. being prime minister or the title or a.

position. I think you also know it know. if you are a public figure. Yeah. And. people know you. Uh of course it's a bit. different. Yeah. Um but we we live a. very uh normal life. Um. um I really enjoy it with my kids, with. my family, with my friends. Um we don't. do anything special. Uh but we have a. great life. Perfect. Thank you so much.

Thank you for spending time with me and. doing your first long form conversation. with me. Thank you. It's an honor. I. genuinely enjoyed all our interactions. first time in the car, then dinners, then probably everywhere. Every time. I've spoken to you, I don't say this. very often, and my audience knows this. very well. Every time I meet you, I get such warm. and humble energy. It makes me.

it it inspires me to do more and become. better version of myself. Thank you for. doing that. >> That's very kind. But to be honest, I'm. very impressed by by what you built. Um, building the the biggest podcast in. India and many other countries around. the world and at your age um is is very. impressive and inspiring and thank you. for the conversation. >> Thank you so much. >> Good to see you.

Let me let me tell you my first uh. impression of you and and first dinner. with you. I. >> when we first met him. >> in Abu Dhabi. >> Yeah. So. so we were at a dinner table. >> and obviously we met in a car but then. first time we had a conversation was on. a dinner table. >> It was a dinner table where I'm sitting. next to the youngest prime minister of. the world. [music] Then I'm sitting in.

front of another prime minister who's. from another nation. Then a health. minister and then there's a lawyer who. is working with private equity firms and. then there was me. >> So I was just so fascinated and thank. you so much for [music]. actually making me feel a part of all of. you guys and just you know. >> you started one of the biggest podcasts. in the world. >> Thank you so much for watching this. episode till the end. We would love to. know what you liked or disliked about. this episode and which guest you would.

like to see again on this show or which. are the new guests that you want to see. Let us know in the comments. Your. feedback helps us improve and make every. episode a little better. I'll see you. the next time. Until then, keep figuring. out. [music]. >> [music].