How To Build High Status, Wealth & Powerful Relationships | Rob Henderson | FO577 Raj Shamani

You've studied rich people and poor. people both. Who craves status more? >> Rather than the poor craving status the. most, it's actually the rich. People who. have wealth and status crave more wealth. and status. There's a really nice line, the more one has, the more one wants. >> Rob K Henderson is an author [music] and. social scientist who studies wealth, class, and society. If you want to. understand how these forces shape our. lives, this episode [music] is for you. If we put 10 people in one house for a. month, take away their identity, after.

the end of month, do you think people. who are high status in real life will. end up again rising to the top? >> I think um generally speaking, yes. >> What determines who rises to the top? >> People who are successful, look at their. traits. You also need to be intelligent, to have formed good alliances, gain. people's trust, do things that other. people find valuable, or have some um. ability to tolerate risk. >> I'm going to give you five things which. are traditionally linked to high status.

What do you think? Where do they stand. today? Education, luxury goods, relationships, properties, and money. >> I'm tempted to to put the property at. number one because it's so hard now and. now it's so inordinately expensive. Yes. Then I would probably put relationship. number two. Marriage rates are lower. It's so hard now for people to find. steady committed relationship. Number. three, yeah, education here because it. shows you kind of like what type of. person you are. Four, probably the goods.

and then money last. >> Tell me three immediate things which. this person can do in next 12 months to. take themselves from low status to high. status. >> The thing that they could immediately. do, physical fitness, visibly look. better over time, but there's a. psychological component, too, where you. feel physically more confident and more. capable and this can be reflected in. your interactions, being more appealing. as a friend or as a romantic partner, cleaning up your diet, and then um. clothing, do some basic grooming, just. so that when you step out into the.

social world, you look as high as your. genetic ceiling will allow you to look. >> Tell me what kind of conversations on a. dinner table people are having. Someone. who's stuck versus someone who's in the. top 1%. I have a small favor to ask you. I need. you to subscribe to our channel. The. more subscribers we have, the better and. bigger guests we can bring and provide. you more value through these. conversations. And the full audio. experience of this show is also.

available on Spotify, where you can. follow us and listen to the new episodes. as well. You know what was fascinating to me, Andre? About you. That. you started with. being very low status. >> Mhm. >> In a society which was. not very high status at all. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And then from there on, you've done. couple of things in series in your life.

where. you have entered the most elite. institutions in the world. And then you became obsessed with this. thing that. >> Mhm. >> why some people earn status, why some. people earn respect versus why people. some people just stay invisible. >> Mhm. >> Right. >> So, I love this. >> Mhm. >> I just love this obsession of yours. because you keep writing and talking. about it. So, let's explore that. Welcome on figuring out Rob Henderson. It's a pleasure having you. >> Thanks, Raj. Great to be here. >> So,

for the people who have no clue who you. are, and they're watching you for the. first time, >> Mhm. >> what do you do? And why should they watch this episode. for next couple of hours? >> Oh. >> Tell us in next 60 seconds. >> Sure. Uh well, my name is Rob Henderson. I am a senior fellow at the Manhattan. Institute. I write about social class, social status. I wrote a best-selling. memoir that came out a couple of years. ago called Troubled and I document my.

own personal experiences with upward. social mobility. I grew up in foster. homes in Los Angeles. Um lived in a. series of 10 different homes growing up. I fled as soon as I could. I enlisted in. the military when I was 17. Uh then from there went off to Yale on. the GI Bill and then got a scholarship. to get a PhD from the University of. Cambridge studying social and. evolutionary psychology. And so from. both an academic perspective and a. personal perspective, I've always been. interested in class, in status, and what.

are the predictors of success, how do we. evaluate one another. Uh and so I've written about this both. in in books and in articles in my. Substack. >> Tell me the first thing. We we should. start at this point that you also got. excited about. Uh why young people lie so much? >> Why young people lie so much? Uh and and. it is the case. So I think anecdotally. people notice that young people are more. kind of fluid with the truth. Um and. this is born out in the research. Uh.

survey data shows this that um. the years that people uh tell the most. lies is uh adolescence through the early. 20s. Um. and you know, everyone to some extent. regardless of age so you know, uh can tell falsehoods, but if you look. at who tells the most, it tends to be. young people. Um. The people who tell the fewest lies tend. to be very young children um. and very old people. So kind of uh.

people, you know, younger than 10 years. old and people who are kind of older. than 60 years old. But this window of. time when people are the most deceptive. um. Well, one reason for this is that those. years, those adolescent and. uh years in the 20s, That period of life. coincides when certain personality. traits spike. Um, so, personality, there's some stability. throughout the lifespan, but it waxes. and wanes. You know, things can change. with age and with development and with.

experience. There are, um, three. particular traits though that have. gotten a lot of attention in personality. psychology both from academics and from. the public in general, the dark triad. Um, so, the dark triad, three. personality traits. Uh, so, you have. narcissism, psychopathy, and. Machiavellianism. And so, narcissism, a. lot of people are familiar with this in. everyday life, but it's, you know, a. sense of, uh, importance, self-entitlement, this belief that. you're due maybe more than others, um,

selfishness. Uh, and then psychopathy, which is, uh, callousness, disregard for. others, a kind of cynicism, a. willingness to step on other people to. get what you want. And then there's. Machiavellianism, um, named after the kind of infamous. political philosopher, Machiavelli. And. Machiavellianism is, um, the willingness to engage in strategic. duplicity and exploitation, uh, for your. own ends, for your own interests. And. these three traits, these are not used. in like a clinical setting, um, among.

mental health professionals to diagnose. someone. These are The dark triad is. meant to capture kind of ordinary. variation in, you know, kind of, uh, the. healthy, uh, population, ordinary people. We all. have these traits to some degree. Um, but if you meet someone who would score, say, at the 99th percentile of all three. traits, that might be someone you would. want to avoid. Um, almost nobody scores. kind of zero across the board. Those. three traits peak during the late teens.

and the early 20s. Um, so, you kind of start off relatively. low on the dark triad, and then you hit. puberty, and you get a little bit older, and you reach young adulthood, and those. traits spike. And then as you enter. middle age and old age, they tend to. decline with time. So, there are a. couple of different possible. explanations for why this is. And as you. can imagine, people higher on the dark. triad tell more lies. >> Yeah. >> But why is this? One possible. explanation that has been put forth is. that having some.

moderate. scores on these traits, having a bit of. propensity to indulge in those traits, can help you a little bit. to succeed in the world. And when you're. young and you are. you know, as you say, maybe maybe a bit. low status, you're seeking friendships, you're seeking alliances, you're seeking. success in your career, you're seeking. romantic partners. It can help to be a. little bit strategic, you know, maybe a. little bit kind of willing to.

be flexible with the truth, just a. little bit. If you go too far, then you. start to have serious problems in your. relationships and you know, with. employers and so on, if you're known as. a serial liar. But having sort of moderate traits can. be advantageous. Sometimes they can be. advantageous when you are dealing with. someone who's extremely high on these. traits. So, example that some people. will give. is. you know, during wartime, if you're. going up against someone like like Adolf. Hitler, maybe it helps to be someone. like Winston Churchill who would not. score zero on the dark triad traits,

right? Um So, that's one reason. Maybe they can. be advantageous in the realm of success, in the realm of status seeking, in the. realm of attaining romantic partners. >> Okay. >> Um. The other possible reason for why this. occurs, it's not so much why does it. spike in young. in your younger years, but why does it. decline with age? And there's an. adaptive explanation for this. There's a. clinical psychologist, Nancy McWilliams, who's described what she calls like like. burnout,

where these traits fade with time. And the explanation for this is that. when you are young and healthy and. strong and robust, you can take more. risks. You can take more physical risks, you can take more social risks, you can. bounce back from. being in potentially hazardous. situations as a young person. If you are a bit aggressive or. confrontational or you. potentially betray someone, but as you.

get older, your body ages physically. You know, you're a bit frailer frailer. you're. more vulnerable to all kinds of hazards. and all kinds of risks. And so it. actually can help to be less aggressive, less confrontational, a bit more. passive, a bit more meek, a bit more. complacent, and that keeps you from. those dangerous situations. And you see. this for example with with criminals. For a lot of. prison inmates for example, you find you. know that rates of.

indulging in crime they peak during the. teens and 20s. And then often those very. same people who were kind of dangerous. and violent in their 20s, by the time. they reach middle age and old age, they're perfectly fine. So there's a. kind of an effect of burnout there. >> But see, this is. you said that these are the traits that. almost everybody has, right? [clears throat] But there are some. people who show these traits way more, I'm talking about the general. ordinary people. who show this on a very. regular basis, on an everyday basis, where lying is almost like a second.

nature for them. Right? In fact, I was reading some. report that almost 60% of people report. lying in the first 10 minutes of a. conversation with anyone. >> Okay. >> And pathological liars, they say up to. 10 lies a day on an average. So. and then when you actually dig deeper. and you ask questions to these people. who are lying in first 10 minutes of the. conversation, they're saying. they're just lying to smooth in the. conversation. They're not even lying to. actually get some unkind of a unfair.

advantage over somebody else. >> Mhm. >> [clears throat]. >> So, why is it becoming such a habit for. people to just lie little bit? It. I can't directly relate it to. dark triad traits, right? This is just. probably a habit which people do either. to elevate status. or something else. >> Mhm. Well, [snorts] there's a part of it. for sure. I mean, so much of social life. is about avoiding conflict. You want to. present yourself in a certain way. You. have you there's some um.

uh reputation management going on. anytime two people or more are. interacting with each other. >> Reputation management going on, [laughter] yeah. >> Yes. >> That is true. >> Yeah, no, no, totally. No, it's it's. it's critical. Um. you know, how we are seen by others. It's it's important to people even when. we interact with people we'll never see. again. We still like to make a certain. kind of impression on them. Um. and so I have seen, you know, similar uh. data on this that people, you know, will. tell lies in the first few minutes, but. often these are white lies. You know,

you ask me how I'm doing and maybe my. car broke down and this that and the. other and I've had a bad day, but I'll. tell you, "Hey, everything's good, you. know, cuz I don't want to burden you. with all of this stuff I'm going. through." So, that, you know, that. technically counts as a lie, but it's. a lie to sort of smooth over social. frictions and just help us to get along. better. Um and there there are, you. know, the pathological liar stuff is. really interesting, too, that um some. psychologists, there's a book by Robin. Dunbar, um. it's called, I think, The Social.

Connection, something like this. It's a. Robin Dunbar book. He's a. evolutionary psychologist at Oxford. He's looked at this. >> Dunbar effect. >> Yeah, oh, yeah. So, that's why you have. the Dunbar number. He's done some other. work on uh on on lying. He reports this. in his book where he talks about how. something like 1% of the population. accounts for around 40% of the lies. told. Um. and so, you know, everyone lies to some. degree, but there's this kind of power. law, this uneven distribution where. there's a small slice of the population.

that tell them you know, not the. majority, but but a lot of lies. And you know, it's hard to hard to trust. people like that. I mean, honestly, like. so much of our you know, society is. structured to protect ourselves from. those kinds of people. >> What are the most common lies you think. everybody. tells maybe without even realizing that. that this is a lie? >> I actually think we could take the. example of. you know, in American culture of you. know, how's it going? I'm good. I think. that is probably actually the most. common. >> Lie. >> Yeah.

If we can categorize it as a lie and. it's not done for malicious reasons. It's like oh, I'm going to trick him. into thinking I'm fine when I'm really. not. It's more so just like hey, you. know, I don't need to have this long. conversation or I don't want to throw. all of my issues onto you. I mean, you're seeing. you know, if you if you believe what. you're seeing on social media, people lying about you know, romantic. relationships and that kind of thing. There's probably some. lying going on job applications. People.

will embellish their qualifications, that kind of thing and. I think part of that is. whenever you feel an increase in. competition, an increase in scarcity of. desired. resources or positions, this puts. pressure on people to maybe embroider, embellish, overstate their. qualifications or their interest or what. have you. So you could apply that to the. professional realm where you know, a lot. of people feel this crunch with.

globalization, with AI, with advanced. tech that it feels, I don't know how. true it is because I don't know if the. unemployment data bear this out, but. there's this feeling that the job market. is becoming more scarce and so people. are more willing to maybe lie there. And. then in the romantic realm, you know, I'm sure you're familiar with. the data on marriage rates cratering, relationships aren't forming, people are. having a hard time dating, and so this. is, you know, a place where people might. um also. uh uh lie and and uh you know, say.

things that um are not entirely truthful. just because uh they feel this. competition, this this um uh. competitiveness. >> Do you think childhood and family, society, it shapes a lot. when it comes to how much a person is. going to lie? Because some behaviors. might become baseline and normal in some. families, and something would be very. different in others. Like, for example, if. someone's grown up in a family where.

everybody. everybody talks about their status and. their surroundings in a much higher way, and they they tell more than they have. It becomes a very normal thing for that. young person to grow up and then talk. about his or her status in the world, and just talk lot like you know, talk. and show more than that that that the. person has. >> Hm. >> And then [clears throat] on the other. side, there are a lot of families and a. lot of people. who don't who show less than what they. have. >> Hm.

>> And then for a young person growing in. that family actually starts. telling less about things, and that. person also lies. >> Would you consider that you So so you. would consider that a lie then? So if. I'm, you know, if I'm a rich, successful. guy, but I tell you, "Oh, I'm just a. normal person. I don't have much." Is. that a lie? >> No, I'm saying. >> Okay. >> when you see this, >> Yeah. >> it becomes your habit to do this in all. every field of your life. >> Hm. >> So for example, when you're. professionally applying to some company, >> Hm. >> right? [clears throat] If you have seen. that, okay, just making it flowery and. you know, talking about yourself in a.

boastful manner is [clears throat] not a. lie, you'll do that on your professional. career as well. >> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So maybe you're a poor guy and. pretending to be rich, >> Yeah. >> that is not, let's say, a lie, for. example. You're just pretending because. that's how you're living. You're not not. telling anyone that, "Hey, I am this. person and this my network, but that is. psychologically become your baseline so. that you so that then you start doing. that in almost every area of your life. Do you think that happens? >> Uh. it it yeah, it strikes me as true. I. mean, one thing that I've noticed um.

through my experiences with social. mobility, growing up in poverty and in. foster homes, and then the military, and. then off to elite institutions is um as. a generalization, I would say that poor people pretend to. be richer than they really are, and rich. people pretend to be poorer than they. really are. So, poor people will lie. upward, and rich people lie downward. And. >> Why? >> Well, so for the poor person, um you you.

know, you want to. being poor is low status, right? And you. don't want to signal to people that you. are desperate, and that you need help, and that you're in this position where. um you know, you're you're dispossessed. in some way. And there's some awareness that uh in. order, you know, it's kind of this paradox here where if. you are very poor, the way to not be. poor is to convince people that you're. not poor, because people.

um. are more willing to help winners, essentially. It's kind of this cool paradox here. where success breeds success. People are. familiar with the Matthew effect and. Pareto distributions, and so on, that. you know, you could imagine, you know, two guys arriving at the same event. One. of these guys shows up in an old. broken-down car that couldn't pass a. smog test. He's wearing a you know, a. shabby-looking suit. He looks really. rough, and he arrives at this event, and. people are going to see this guy, and. maybe tiptoe around him, avoid him, like, I don't know if I want to talk to. that person. And then another guy pulls. up in a you know, $5,000 suit. He's in a.

Lamborghini. He seems like everything is. going extremely well for him. Things are. going well for him, and yet through that. success, and through the you know, the. the the presentation of that success, people are going to be drawn to him. They're going to be like, "Who's this. guy in the nice suit? Who's the guy in. the Lamborghini? I wonder what what he's. interested in. What he's out What is he. up to? What does he do for work?" And. then more opportunities open. So, when. you're a poor person, you lie upward in. order to kind of improve your chances of. not being poor anymore. On the other hand, um. especially in Oh, yeah, [clears throat].

I would say like especially in the. modern US, you see a lot of this um. modesty. Some of it is real, some of it. is a bit fake, this kind of humility um. of very successful people who will. downplay their success. They will say. that they actually don't have much or. that um. you know, they they downplay um. you know, how hard they had to work, the. um the effort that they've put in, or. they'll say, "You know, I'm just the. same as everyone else. I'm I'm middle.

class just like everyone else." even if. they have a private jet. Now, this part. about um whether growing up poor um. makes people maybe more willing to lie. about their status, something like that, that is interesting because it does tie. into the dark triad. There's research on. childhood instability. And researchers have found that children. who have grown up in extremely unstable, unpredictable, dysfunctional homes, um. they trace them over time and in. adulthood they score higher. There's a.

correlation. They score higher on the. dark triad traits. So, the one. interpretation is that the more unstable. your childhood, the higher you score on. the dark triad later. And maybe this is. because as a young child, um you're. perhaps around a lot of adults who are. willing to bend the truth and you absorb. that from them. Um and then uh another part of this is. maybe you're more short-term oriented, that you don't feel that you can uh rely. on anyone or anything. Relationships. don't last, so you might as well just. get what you can uh.

in the moment without thinking long-term. about um building enduring alliances and. so on. >> Or maybe because you have grown up in an. in an unstable unstable environment and. there's so much uncertainty around you, so you want to control. And you feel the. fastest way to build control over your. life and the people around you is dark. triad traits because that gives you a. sense of control. >> Yes. >> Because you want certainty. >> That's a good Yeah, that's that's a good. point. Um.

you know, it it it Yeah, the dark triad. traits it. you can you can fill you with this kind. of ambition. Maybe it's a a misguided. form of ambition, but yeah, when you. when you feel lost and you feel you. can't trust anyone, um. you know, maybe it's better to sort of. have those traits activate rather than. being sort of complacent and passive. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, tell me because you've. studied rich people and poor people. both, >> Mhm. [clears throat]. >> who crave status more? Rich people status rich people crave. status more or poor people?

>> It's it's a good question. Well, so you. might think that poor people crave. status more. You know, I grew up, you. know, poor at least in the context of. the US and I'm very interested in these. topics. You might think that someone, you know, kind of you know, the the. general abstract person in society, if. they grow up low income, they don't have. much status, that's the person who. craves the most because they have this. thing they lack. We want what we don't. have, that kind of idea. But when you look at the research on um. social status, who pursues it, who's the.

most uh covetous of it, um. it tends to be people who already have. status. Uh so, this has been a replicated study. There was one study in uh 2019 and one. in 2022. Independent teams of. researchers, they. more or less conducted the same set of. studies, so. if you collect people's. um. uh metrics on status, so their income, level of education, occupational. prestige, um.

and you find that people who score at or. near the top of those measures are the. most likely to agree with statements. like it would please me to be in a. position of power over others. Uh it's important for me to have. influence over my peers. I enjoy when. people look at me when I walk into a. room. And so I rather than the poor. craving status the most, it's actually. the rich. People who are doing well in. their lives, people who have wealth and. status crave more wealth and status.

There's a really nice line uh from the. 19th century sociologist Emile Durkheim. who said, uh "The more one has, the more. one wants since satisfactions received. only stimulate instead of filling. needs." And I remember the first time I. read these studies, you know, 2019, I. was in grad school. I was kind of still. thinking through these issues. And I didn't know if I believed it at. first, but you know, the more I dwelled. on it, the more I realized that when I. was poor, and most poor people, you have. a very limited number of desires, right?

You know, maybe you want warmth, you. want shelter, you want food. Um you you. know, you you want to not be arrested. There are a few things, you know, it's. it's just a handful you're primarily. focused on sort of your safety, your. well-being, your health. Um. And once all of those needs are. satisfied, you know, you don't have to. worry about where your next meal is. coming from, you don't have to worry. about paying the rent, you don't have to. worry about uh you know, the cops or. anything like that. Then you don't you you don't find that. most people okay, when I I'm good. I.

don't have to think about anything. anymore. All my needs are met. I can. just kick back and lounge by the pool. Often you start thinking about the other. desires that you've been neglecting. because you've been so focused on basic. survival. Suddenly you're thinking, you. know, how do I um you know, I have. money. How do I earn even more money? You know, I'm doing well in my career, but how do I do even better in my. career? I have some friends, but you. know, I wonder if I could get some. higher status friends. You know, I. wonder if I could you know, and and so. all of these other desires start to to. percolate upward. And to me this helped. to explain.

Um. almost no one in my life up until I got. to college, up until I arrived at Yale. at age 25, no one in my life talked. about status. Maybe they talked about it. in kind of indirect ways using other. words like honor or respect, those kinds. of things. Like you want people to. respect you. Um. but then when I get to college, you. know, I'm hearing this word status, I'm. hearing people interested in prestige, I'm hearing people talk about how they. can't wait to. get this internship, get this job, get.

to this next high-paying gig. And all of. the people I was around, objectively. they they were doing better than anyone. I'd ever met in my life. You know, by. the time you get to this kind of. university. you know, your life is going to be. pretty pretty good, you know, compared. to the average person. Um but that is. when I started to interact with people. who were just obsessed with this notion. of accomplishment, achievement, doing. more, doing better, you know, impressing. more and more people. And I think that. those interactions too kind of.

contributed to my own interest in. status. >> What do you think what used to give. people high status before but not. anymore? >> Well, so historically. if you look at you know, a lot of the. the sociological work back in the day, people like Thorstein Veblen. who wrote this amazing book The Theory. of the Leisure Class. Historically, social status was. exhibited through material goods, luxury. goods, material possessions. And you know,

prior to the 20th century. you could walk around, you know, any. major city, probably anywhere on Earth. honestly, where there are any class distinctions. whatsoever and you could immediately. tell just by looking at someone how. they're dressed and how they're groomed, who's rich and who's poor. It's much more difficult to do that. today. You can still do it, you know, it's it's. not an impossible task. But if you were. to. >> more difficult. >> Right. You walk around New York City in. um you know, 1820 versus 2026, you'll.

tell you know, you could tell the. difference who's rich and who's poor. Um. And sometimes I'll tell this joke that. San Francisco, maybe it's harder, you. know, there's there's a game people. play. What is it? Is this guy homeless or is he a tech. bro? >> [laughter]. >> But uh you know, that aside, that was. the old way. Um there were some. fascinating stories too about how elites. tried to control um the exhibition of. goods um because they were trying to. protect their status. So, uh you see. sumptuary laws, these laws about who's. allowed to wear what kind of clothing.

Um you look at feudal Japan in the 17th. century, the samurai were the. aristocrats of feudal Japan. You know, these were the nobility, the samurai, the warriors. They had their sword and. they wear wore fine silks, their fine. garments, and of course they had their. armor too when they were going into. battle. But they wore fine silks and. that was what they were known for. In the 17th century, merchants started. to travel, they started to trade, they. started to get wealthy, and the. merchants suddenly could afford silks, and the samurai uh were infuriated by.

this, and they made requests to the. authorities to essentially ban the. purchase of fine silks, to limit it only. to the aristocrats, the nobility, the. samurai. No one else can wear this. It's. a critically important, and you see this. in um. uh other times and places throughout. history as well. Uh pointy shoes in. Europe, there was this thing going on in. medieval Europe about only certain kinds. of uh social classes should be allowed. to wear pointy shoes, and the pointier. the higher status you were. Today, um things have changed, and you. know, this is where my luxury beliefs.

idea comes in. That now that material. possessions have become a noisier signal. of one's social rank, uh. and at as we've established, you uh. high-status people crave status more. than anyone, and. you know, I'm simplifying somewhat here, but if you're a high-status person and. you think, "Okay, well, you know, how do I exhibit my status?" I. could do it through material goods, but. that's harder, you know, a lot of other. people can afford this, too. So, how do. I show that I'm a high-status person?

Well, you could do it through ideas, through beliefs, through opinions, uh. through um what some sociologists call. cultural capital, um which we can we can talk about here, too. You have um these three forms of of. capital. >> Mhm. >> Um. the most basic form is. economic capital, which everyone can. understand. That's essentially how much. money you have, material resources. Do. you have economic capital? But, um what you often find is that once. people reach a certain level of economic.

capital, they become interested in these. two other forms of capital. So, there's. social capital, which is your network, you know, the kinds of people you know. Do you have uh impressive friends? Do. you have friends who are also successful. in their careers? Do you have friends. who can open doors for you? That kind of. thing. And it's not just for you, but. for your children, as well. So, um knowing um you know, who runs the. private school in your town so that your. kids can get in, that's a form of social. capital. Um and then there's cultural. capital. Uh and this pillar of capital is um.

you convert your economic capital into. displays of taste, of displays of um. interest, of hobbies. And so, cultural capital, uh when this. term was developed in the 1970s by uh. this guy, Pierre Bourdieu, he um was. writing about how the elites of his time. in the 1970s, they were interested in. knowing a lot about wine, you know, the. different vintages of wine, where was. this, you know, uh a vintage grown? Um knowing a lot.

about art, the history of art, you know, looking at a painting and being able to. say something interesting and. sophisticated about it, knowing about. exotic locations, um. kind of knowing like insider language, insider lingo. Um. you know, like I as I mentioned though, I I moved to New York a couple of years. ago and I'm learning oh, there's certain. kinds of language in New York City that. only people who grew up here know about. where people will say um you know, they'll talk about going down the shore,

which is like an area in New Jersey uh. where people go for the summers. They. talk about uh uh the Hamptons in a. certain kind of way. They um will, you. know, kind of mention clubs and gauge. your reaction, do you know this club or. not? I saw this um. when I was a student at Yale. Uh there. are residential colleges. and each student is each undergraduate. student is assigned to a different. college. You know, you might go to. Silliman College, you might go to Hopper. College, Jonathan Edwards College. And.

there are other universities uh as well. um. around New Haven where Yale is located. and students would interact and. sometimes you'd meet other students from. other universities. And um. >> [laughter]. >> sometimes the male students, we're. talking speaking of lying, some of the. male students who didn't go to Yale. would tell girls, oh, I go to Yale. And. if the girl went to Yale, uh she would. ask the guy, oh, what college? And the. guy would say, oh, I just said Yale, right? And this was kind of a test of, you know, if you really go here, you.

would be able to tell me one of the. residential colleges you're based at, but that was I don't know if that's the. explicit uh uh intent of having these. colleges, but sometimes students would. use that as a screening mechanism. Do. you know this piece of information. um so that I can evaluate, you know, what kind of person you are, how. truthful you are, kind of thing. Um So, all of that falls under cultural. capital. There's there's there's another. form too uh uh what some anthropologists. will call embodied capital. >> What is that? >> Uh which is um you're like literally. your your health and your fitness. Um.

and so, if you are a healthy, fit, muscular person, we'd say, oh, you have. a lot of embodied capital. Um and you. are seeing this now where a lot of. wealthy people become very interested in. uh their health and their wellness and. their fitness, which to me kind of goes. to show that once you reach a certain. level of achievement in your life, you. want even more. How do you get it? Oh, I'm just going to become super jacked, super ripped, do the cold plunge, do the. weightlifting, do all of these protocols. to to look uh really fit. Which is which. wasn't the case back in the day where it. used to be that rich people were the.

lazy ones, right? You know, Thorstein. Veblen wrote about the leisure class. These were people who ate a lot of food, went to these lavish banquets, um, you. know, purchased you know, they they. golfed, they just, you know, >> Quincy Adams talked about stupid stories. of the world. >> Yeah, yeah. They would just kind of. [laughter] kick back and smoke their. cigar and and they they were the they. were the fat ones. And today you have. this inversion where now the richer you. are, the more people are interested in. health and wellness and fitness. Yeah. >> That is true. And recently. world's biggest luxury company ended up.

acquiring Hydrow. LVMH. >> Huh. >> signals a lot of what. the luxury people are interested in. because or else the biggest luxury. company won't acquire something which is. related to fitness. >> Huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that that I. mean that makes so much sense. That's. kind of the final frontier. So one way. that um. you know, this this idea of signaling. works, you know, we want to signal our. status. We want to signal certain um. uh.

certain kinds of information about. ourselves. And you know, we're. constantly leaking out information. We're signaling even when we don't know. that we're signaling. And you know, with. with fitness, um, this is a very hard to. fake signal. The way the only way that. the signaling as a as a concept and as a. mechanism works is if they're honest. >> Mhm. >> Um. and because we're constantly, you know, kind kind of gauging one another. You. know, are you who you really say you. are? You tell me certain things, but I'm. not really going to believe you until I. see evidence for it. And so, um, you know, you can tell me.

you're rich you're this, that, and the. other. Um, and by now we know that there. are ways to, um, you know, maybe you've. seen some of this like like Instagram. influencers who will, um, like pay for these like lavish, um, social media sets. It's like, you know, it looks like it's a private plane, but. it's really just a TV set in LA. somewhere and they're taking all these. glamorous pictures and they put it. online and it makes them look super. successful. And so there are ways now to. to, um, misrepresent yourself. Fitness. is very hard to do this with. It's kind.

of the final frontier. Things are. changing technologically with all the. the treatments and so on. But, you know, still if you see someone who's muscular, who's glowing, who looks healthy, um, that is an indicator that they probably. really are. They spend a lot of time at. the gym, they're conscientious, they. take care of their diet, they are. focused on health and wellness. Um, you. can't really buy, uh, a physically fit. body, at least not yet. >> True. True. What do you think? What's. the most. rare. and expensive cultural capital today?

>> Oh, [clears throat] the most rare and. expensive form of cultural capital. Um, gosh, there. people may disagree with me on this. There there's one. There's one that immediately comes to. mind. Um, I'm thinking about this quote from, uh, from Scott Galloway, uh, Galloway who. few years ago, uh, he was at what I. believe was an academic conference and. he said something interesting which he. said something like, um, the strongest brands in the world today. are not Apple and Mercedes. The.

strongest brands in the world are. Oxford, Harvard, Princeton, uh, these. kinds of, uh, institutions of higher. learning. Now, there's, you know, I I've. written a lot of critiques about these. kinds of elite institutions. I have my. concerns with them. I think they've made. a lot of missteps over the last few. years. Um, but still, uh, they're they're hard to get into and. they, especially for someone who grew up. the way that I did, they can completely. change the course of your life. And so,

Paul you know, arguably education is. because it's it's scarce by design. um and because these name brands are. recognized all over the world that. arguably this is one uh. of the rarest and most difficult and. coveted forms of status is um. attending one of these institutions or. trying to get one of your kids into. these institutions. You still see it. >> Do you think these rare clubs. and membership clubs. >> Mhm. >> are a strong form of cultural capital?

Uh because that a lot of people can't. get in even though I would argue that. it's. there are few. clubs or membership. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> kind of groups [clears throat]. >> Mhm. >> or conferences or things that people do. these like really large CEOs, billionaires, or. top 0.001%. people in the world or tech bros will. actually attend and do and become part. of. >> Mhm. >> That is way harder. than even getting an Ivy League. >> That's true. Yeah, I mean so. >> And that is becoming like something to.

talk about and then they talk about it. all year. >> Haha. >> [laughter]. >> One day conference and maybe I don't. know Sun Valley or somewhere. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> This what we doing or some club at. Malibu Point which only 20 people are. member of they'll just talk about that. >> I mean what I'm thinking about here Raj. is there there kind of two forms of. prestige. I don't you can think about. these as cultural capital. So, there's. um uh. kind of classic prestige and lay. prestige. So, um lay prestige is I tell.

you something I I I tell kind of anyone. in society about this thing and they. know what it is and they're impressed by. it. Um so, yeah yeah yeah yeah I got to. go to I go to Oxford or something like. that. People know what that is and. they're oh, that's very impressive. Classic prestige is. um most more or less like kind of. unknown by the typical person. So, oh I. went to to fancy conference in Sun. Valley or something, and only the. insiders would know. So, maybe 95, 99%. of the population would be unimpressed. or have no idea what I'm talking about, but only insiders, you know, people who.

have heard of this conference and have. always wanted to go, but they've never. been, but they're kind of in proximity. to the people who do attend, and would. really like to go, and they know like. part of the reason why it's so. prestigious is because so few people. know of it, and and uh so few people are. able to get into it. Um. So, that's that's one. And then the. other one, as we're as we're speaking. now, um I'm sure you've seen uh the. survey data on Gen Z, how. a lot of these surveys show that the. number one most desired job is. influencer.

Young people want to be famous. And so, I think, yeah, having uh. uh a large following online, a popular. show, a popular podcast, um you know, being you know, famous or micro famous, uh internet celebrity type, um I think. among young people that that might be, you know, at least as valuable if not. more so than getting into the right. college. I think if you talk to like an. average 20-year-old today, would you. rather be a super famous influencer or. get into you know, one of these fancy. colleges, I think I I think more of them.

would probably say influencer. Yeah. >> Because that will open more doors today. >> And you know, people are more impressed. by it. I mean, it's it's it's harder, you know, there more people who get into. an Ivy League school every year than uh. blow up and become, you know, the number. one podcaster in the world or the number. one most followed person on Instagram. >> True. True. And I think the status might. it keeps changing, right? It keeps. changing. If you're. an average person from a middle-class. family from somewhere in the world, probably getting in the top most college.

of your country becomes status. If you. are from the top most college, or if you. have done at at least basic college, then the top college in the world. becomes status for you. And once you are. amongst the people who are everyone's a. status, then these kind of clubs and. conferences and fame and everything. becomes like much bigger. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> So like someone who's not famous. probably getting into million follower, two million follower, 10 million. followers will be status for them. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> But amongst everyone who has 10 million. followers, getting into that exclusive.

club becomes more status. >> Right. No, that's that's a great point. and I think that, you know, that that. relates to. >> from context to context. >> [laughter]. >> Well, that's the thing. We're we're. never satisfied. Um especially the people who are the. most interested in status. And I've I've had so many conversations. with successful people. I know you have, too. Where, you know, I remember when I. was just kind of um starting my writing. career, I had this conversation um. with this, you know, well-known doctor. who became kind of a celebrity doctor.

And uh I was talking to him and his wife. over dinner and uh he was telling me, you know, Rob, like you think like, "Oh, once I, you know, once I write a book, once I do this, once I do that, I'll be. satisfied." And he said, "I had this in. my mind for years. You know, I graduated. from medical school and I thought, you. know, once I achieve this rank at this. hospital, I'll be happy. Once I hit this. number in my bank account, I'll be. happy. Once I live in this neighborhood. in this town, I'll be happy." And each. time I hit that benchmark, I was like, "What's next? What's the next thing? What's next?" And his wife was sitting. there nodding like, "Oh god, like you.

would always say like Yeah, yeah, I'd. say like, "When are you going to come. home? Like when are you going to spend. more time with the kids, the family?". And and he would always say, "Once I do. this, it'll be good. Once I hit this and. and it always the the goal post kept. moving.". Um. and yeah, I see this now where I'm. around, you know, successful people and. so much of the conversation is around. They they don't explicitly say, "Hey. guys, how do we become more successful? What's the secret to the" It's more so. like, you know, "Yeah, what's next for you?" Or um you. know, "What's your routine? How are you. thinking about this strategy, marketing,

publicity, this, that, and the other?". And so they're not outright saying like, "How are you boosting your status? What. are the steps you're taking to be even. more impressive than you are?" It's more. so like, "Hey, walk me through how. you're handling this or this." And but. the the information is often more or or. or at least partly about uh um. you know, becoming more successful, right? >> That's. that's true. I'm I'm thinking about all. of these things and it's funny that. I've never thought about. once I achieve this and then I'll be. happy.

>> Mhm. >> and I'll then retire. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> For me it's about the game. >> Ah, okay. >> Like. >> That's probably the healthiest attitude. Wait, as long as you're being honest. with yourself. >> Yeah, like I know at I don't think at. any point. >> Mhm. >> I will be very satisfied and be like, "Oh, now I'll retire and I'm happy.". I've always been happy. >> Mhm. Okay. >> And then. >> Okay. >> Always, I mean, like since last, let's. say, 4 5 years. >> Okay. >> Right? But since I was 16, I knew that. there's not a point, like there's. nothing which will give me like eternal. joy. I think just the pursuit of doing.

gives me maximum amount of joy. And I. know there's no point that I'll think of. retirement and then think of, "Okay, this is it." And was like I I don't lie. I don't myself because I know I. won't do that. >> [laughter]. >> No, that's great. >> At least I'm aware. >> And that's that's No, it it and it's I. think that is a rare insight. There are. people. uh older than you would be who have this. belief in that uh they they've never had. that realization. They always have, "Oh, what's the next thing? Once I reach this. point, then I can kind of ease off the.

gas and kind of take it easier or focus. on other things." But um. No, that's a. that's a kind of an itch that can never. be fully satisfied. There's a. psychologist uh William von Hippel. He. wrote a great book uh years ago called. the the social leap. And it's an. evolutionary psychology book, but he has. this analogy, uh why is it that. you. achieve your desire, you get the gold. medal, you get you know, you you get the. award, you get the thing that you. wanted, and most for most people, you.

know, they achieve this boost. They. believe once they get it, they'll be. happy. Then they do get it and they're. like, "Wow, I'm as happy as I expected. Like, this is amazing. People are. applauding, and I'm I have this. impressive award or this thing, this. milestone that I've achieved." And then, the days go by, the weeks go by, the. months go go by, and suddenly, that uh. excitement and that happiness has. dissipated, and they're kind of back to. their pre-success. baseline. Um. The analogy here is to getting into uh a.

hot tub or a bubble bath. Where you step. in, and initially, you're like, "This. feels good. It feels amazing. Like, I. feel so tingly and warm." And then, 5. minutes later, 10 minutes later, 20. minutes later, it feels like nothing. You know, you're just sitting in the. tub, and it doesn't feel like uh uh. not nearly the same kind of feeling as. when you first stepped in. And so, for. that reason, we're constantly chasing uh. uh a status. Um and the evolutionary logic here is. that um if you go back tens of thousands. of years ago,

uh you know, maybe there were some. humans who, you know, they did one uh. impressive thing, they caught the fish, or they were able to navigate to the. water, they did something, the community. says, "Oh, we applaud you. Thank you so. much. We give you some status for what. you've done for us." Um and then, this. person just sits back on their laurels, and, you know, doesn't ever do anything. impressive again. They're permanently. satisfied for their whole life. Um that. person is going to be less likely to um. >> [clears throat]. >> reproduce, to find partners, to find al-.

allies, to um. maintain that high reputation compared. with someone who they do the one. impressive thing, and they enjoy the. applause, and they're like, "I got to. get more of this. I like what's the next. thing I got to do?" And they just keep. chasing it and keep doing more. impressive things because uh they enjoy. the approval of their community. >> That is That is so true. But But I'm. good like that. >> I am, too. >> I'm good like that because the. anticipation of achievement makes me way. more happier than achievement. >> Oh. Oh, wow. Okay, I wish I had that.

Like, I I enjoy the antici- You know, as. I become more aware of it, but the. achievement itself is still. >> [laughter]. >> I still I still like a good. >> For me the it's the anticipation. It's. It's when I'm filling the tub. Not the tub, when I'm getting into the. hot bubble tub. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so so it's like. right before you dip your toe and you're. like I'm feeling amazing. >> the tub, right? Like the the tap is on, I can see the bubbles coming in, going. up. All that. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Like 20 minutes later I'm going to be in. it. That gives me the maximum anti like. happiness. And the moment I'm going to. do it I think, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay, so here's what I'm going to do.

I'm going to give you five things. >> Okay. >> which are traditionally linked to high. status, >> Mhm. >> materialistic goods. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> [clears throat]. >> What do you think where do they stand. today? Rank them as per today's status. >> So from like one to five? >> Yeah, one to five. Okay, so I'm going to. just going to put it here. All right. So. it's like education, luxury goods, relationships, properties, and money. >> Okay. >> So what in today's world? Because. >> Yeah. Let me. >> Firstly, it used to be money, then it. became property.

>> Okay. >> Then recent times it became luxury. goods. Education was always there, but. never like the primary driver. >> Mhm. >> Right? But [clears throat] today I think. it's changing. So. >> Yeah. >> What do you think is. the biggest signal of status today? >> Yeah, this is this is interesting. because in in in a way, Raj, I almost. want to like, let me see here. I almost. want to do something like this, you. know, cuz these are all kind of tied. together. Um. so but but if we have to if we have to. rank them. >> different, right? Like they're.

There can be people who. >> Like inherit properties. >> Like no, no, like they they would think that putting. all their wealth in making a grand house. and properties is status. And there are. people who are like, I'm living in a. modest apartment, but then everything. that I wear from top to bottom is rare. watches and then rare this and I drink. the fancy wine and then all that. like that's luxury goods and show off. signaling of luxury goods. >> Yeah. >> So they can be like two different. things. Yeah. Well, I mean. in in in the context we're in New York.

right now, the US as a whole there's. this ongoing discussion around housing. costs. Um. and so I think at least among young. people I'm I'm actually you know, I'm. I'm tempted to to put the property at. number one because. >> status? >> because it's so hard now. So so you. know, I'm thinking mostly about young. people let's say like under 40 under 30. under 40. >> that having a home now is because it's. so rare. Very few people I don't know. what the average age of home ownership. now, but it keeps creeping up. It used.

to be you know back in the 1970s. uh you know, couples would get married. in their early 20s and buy a home and. now it's so inordinately expensive. >> Yes. >> So I'm thinking this might be number. one. >> So you think for a young person. >> Yeah. >> highest amount of. status. >> Yeah. >> is. shown through properties? Like if you. have like a crazy ass big apartment. >> [laughter]. >> Especially if you own it. >> Yeah. Like if you own like a Central. Park. >> Yeah.

>> in front of a Central Park like a large. penthouse. >> Yeah. >> You know. >> I'm playing out the scenario in my mind. So I'm talking to a 26-year-old guy and. he tells me oh I have some money, I have. relationships, I have a nice watch, I. went to a good school. Um and I was oh that's great. But if he. tells me, you know, he's started saving when he was a kid. and then worked really hard and made. some good decisions and you know, maybe. had some help from his family and he has. a house. That is much more rare than. it's far rarer to meet a young person um. say you know, reasonably kind of the.

youngest you could possibly expect this. probably mid-late 20s at the very. earliest to buy a house. Um and if you. tell me that I'd be like wow, okay. Like. that's great. And you know, of course. like the value of the home will. appreciate in a way that maybe the value. of of an expensive watch wouldn't. Um. or in the way that that you know, getting getting a degree wouldn't. So. I'm I'm tempted to put that as number. one of of having a house having a. property simply because it's so rare. um. and then okay. if we're thinking about.

>> [clears throat]. >> okay, I would probably put relationships. if we're we're talking specifically. about marriage number two. um. >> I was not this as well. >> Yes, yeah, I'm. I'm not quite tempted to flip it almost. um because they're more probably more. married people than people who own homes. but. there has been a lot of discussion and I. have contributed to you know writing. articles and so on talking about how. marriage is increasingly a status. symbol. Um if you look at the patterns.

uh in the United States. um. and I would guess you know this is. probably true in many other countries as. well. that marriage used to be this very. accessible institution. Everyone got. married rich people and poor people. alike um is very common. So. yeah, there there's been this discussion. of marriage as a status symbol because. when you look at. um who tends to get married now, it. tends to be people who are educated, people who are successful and so on that.

um you know marriage is increasingly. seen as this capstone in one's life of. you know, I've achieved everything in my. career. I'm on the right track then you. meet someone and you get married and. people say that um. the reason why if you were people are. getting married now is because it's. prohibitively expensive. uh which I find um. hard to believe because if you look at. developing countries. um some of these places marriage rates. are higher than they are in the US and.

then when you look at the history of the. United States back when the US was much. poorer the marriage rates were higher um. so you know materially speaking in many. ways we're we're wealthier than we've. ever been but the marriage rates are. lower and the people who continue to get. married are uh affluent people and you. see this now with um um. you know, it's so hard now for people to. find steady committed relationships and. there's a lot of uh I think kind of. low-level envy and jealousy now of. people who when they find someone it's.

like, you know, you can be happy for. them but I'm seeing now increasingly. among young people just like, "God, like. well, you know, how how how do you like. how did you find this person and how do. I do it?" And there's this kind of, you. know, negativity there. So, I would yeah, I think I would put. >> Relationships. >> Yeah, committed a committed relationship. but not like not a situationship, not. like, you know, I'm talking about like. we're married kind of thing at number. two. Number three. Mhm. Mhm. I think I would still yeah, education here.

is I think generally education is still. seen as a pathway to get these two. things, right? To get money and luxury. goods. Not always and things are. changing but for the most part people. think of education as a stepping stone. toward. um. improving their prospects materially. >> You think there'd be more people owning. luxury goods than. who have been to. let's say a good good college. >> Uh yeah, I think I think that's right. >> Are you calling good college or are you.

calling this prestigious college? Those. are like two very different things. >> [laughter]. >> Uh I mean I think I think just education. in general um yeah, like higher. education college, university, that kind. of thing. Um but yeah, I would say, you know, kind. of any any. well-known good college doesn't have to. be the most prestigious but I think most. young people still want to go to. college, they still long for it and not. not just for. material goods but also because it shows.

you kind of like what type of person you. are, you know, education signals so many um underlying. attributes, your level of aptitude, intelligence, um. Conscientiousness, can you stick to. something? Can you complete it? Um. which like, you know, depends on the. field you're you're in um and what you. want to do, but those are still. generally valued traits. So, >> That's three. >> Yeah. Four.

Hm. Hm, I would Yeah, probably the goods and. then money last, which I know is it's a. little counterintuitive, but I would say. So, the reason is because. it's not that anyone can get money, but it's easier to accumulate capital. than it is to. um. have good taste. And so, just because you have money. doesn't mean you have taste. So, I'm. thinking of luxury goods here. This. isn't just, I don't know, a knockoff uh.

it's a piece of good. >> branded logo t-shirts. >> Yeah. It doesn't just say, you know, Gucci. across my chest or something. [laughter]. It's, you know, I'm I'm thinking of this. as like a tasteful piece of uh of uh you. know, jewelry or a watch or whatever, handbag, um sports car. And. there are there are kind of um. higher and lower ways to exhibit your. taste through material goods. So, yeah, if you're very flashy, you're very. gaudy, you're wearing, you know, logos.

and brand names and everything, you're. driving a really loud, flashy, expensive. car. Um you know, people will know that you. have money when you do that or they'll. suspect you have money. Um but that that won't always convert. into that person's high status. It could. also just be like, that person's kind of. trashy. That person's kind of like, you. know, um. >> I think it signals that these days more. than. >> Yeah. >> Like. these days, if you're like very flashy, I don't think you're considered high. status. I think that's changing.

>> Yeah, there's this. >> It used to be like that. It used to be. that if you're rich and you've made some. money, you want to be flashy, you'll. wear all logos all around you, buy the. most expensive watches, and drive like. fancy as hell cars with weird colors. >> Yeah. >> Now, it's like it I think it's changing. I. think quiet luxury gives you much higher. status than loud luxury. >> Yeah. No, agreed. Yeah, and the quiet. luxury is interesting. So, I you know, I. didn't grow up in this world and I come.

to New York and I'm hanging out with. friends who grew up in and I'll see. someone and to me the guy is just. wearing a t-shirt. It looks like a. t-shirt. And then my friend leans over. and he's like, "Oh, no, that that. t-shirt costs like $400. It's from this. brand. It's this, that, and the other.". And I'm like, "How do you even know all. of this?" Like, that's just a t- It's a. black t-shirt. But, because of the. design or the stitching or there's like. a very subtle tiny logo, barely. perceptible, they can pick up on all. these things. Um. >> Or just by the quality of. the material or cashmere, you can find. that. >> Right. Yeah. And if you didn't grow up.

around it, you don't know, right? And. so, I think that's why I would rank this. higher than money because you can get. money, but then you have to be able to. convert it in a tasteful way to some. kind of quiet luxury. There's also like, you know, stories of uh if you want to. get in certain kinds of handbags, certain kinds of jewelry, um. you have to build a relationship first. with the company. >> uh before they will allow you access to. those goods. Um. and so, you know, I think yeah, this is. uh maybe counterintuitive, but I would. put money literally last.

Um but, the thing is you know, you can. get the money and then and then you need. to you know, if you want to raise your. status, you have to sort of play these. other games well of you know, you know, understanding how to buy properties and. what to do and then navigating. relationships. I've met so many guys, Raj, with relationships. Um. they you know, these are successful. guys. They've gone to the right. colleges, they did made all the right. steps in their career, and now they're. in their 30s and they've done some. casual dating here and there, but. they're like, you know, I tried to meet. someone, I did the apps, I did this, and. I'm like realizing, "Oh, this is a.

full-time job." Like, that's where we. are now in society where it used to be. you would just kind of live your life. and relationships would just kind of. fall into place. You'd meet someone, you. go on a couple dates, you make each. other laugh, and you get married, or. whatever. I'm simplifying. Now, if you. try this, you know, let's just see what. happens approach, you could be single. forever. Uh and so now I talk to young guys who. on paper are doing very well and they're. like, "Oh, I took, you know, I took 6. months off. You know, I had a successful. exit. I took 6 months off and now I'm. just like How do I, you know, I hired a.

dating coach, whatever this, that, and. the other." And these are not like, you. know, incels. They're not like the. bad-looking guys. They're they're. they're fine, but they are just um. realizing that to find a compatible. suitable partner, um you know, it takes effort, it takes. strategy, it takes planning. Um and so, you know, that's why that's why I put. this here. So. >> I also believe. not believe, I just got to know this. very recently in last couple of years. that. for a lot of rich people.

finding a partner is not about. compatibility, is it has to do a lot. more with status. >> Meaning the status of the partner or. >> it adds up to their status or reduces. their status. >> Ah, so it's like I'm not marrying this. person because I like them or cuz we get. along, it's because how is this going to. look to other people? Or how is this person going to help me. in my career kind of thing? >> And more than that, so there was a study. done by um I think some. some society in America.

They found out that majority of men, they marry a partner and their status. goes up and down based on how pretty. their partner is when they enter the. room. Right? Um majority of women, their. status in their feeling goes up and down. based on how powerful the man is with. them. >> Right. >> So when you enter a room and you're. entering with, let's say. a man who's a loser amongst all the. other friends and all the other friends. are doing really well in their careers. The women automatically will start.

feeling low status no matter where women. is in her in her career. >> Mhm. >> And similarly, when a man enters, no. matter how secure and. great and successful the man is, the. moment they enter a room and they he. feels that probably his partner is not. as good looking as the other friend's. partner, he will start feeling low. status. >> Ah. >> of people report. I'm not saying. >> Yeah. >> this is. like thumb rule, but majority people. have that. Only minority people are very. secure with the relationships and they.

see other partners as compatibility. >> Mhm. >> Majority of them see this as status. >> Interesting. >> And it is you always happen in the rich. class, right? >> Yeah, yeah. >> The rich, classy families, all these. elite class families will only marry. their kids into other elite class. families. They wouldn't marry anyone. from low status, which they perceive is. a low status. Or somebody who from who. comes from family wealth. wouldn't want their kids to be married. to someone who's who's first generation. wealth. You know, like there are so many. combination and permutation combination.

these guys play around. And it's all. about status and it's coming down to a. lot of young people as well. It used to. be a rich people's game. Now it's. everybody's game. >> That makes so much sense. Yeah, no, no, I was I was thinking about this. yesterday. There are historical. precedents to this where. I was kind of explicit of, you know, this is a good family, that's a bad. family. You're going to marry someone. from this kind of, you know, place, this. kind of school, this kind of, you know, background. And, you know, now. people don't talk about this in polite. society in such transparent terms of, oh, you can't marry this person or I.

don't want to marry her because she's. not rich enough or I don't want to marry. him because he doesn't come from the. right family or whatever. Um, but that mentality is still. simmering under the surface. You can see. this through, um, this is often. referred to as assortative mating where. birds of a feather flock together. We. tend to marry people who are similar to. ourselves. And. what's interesting is that, you know, psychologists who are interested in. mating and relationships, they look at. what are the predictors of two people. getting together and they look at. physicality, you know, height and. weight, appearance, those things have.

some effect. They look at personality. traits, they have some effect, too. But. the the number one factor. or the strongest correlation between two. people. when they get married is education. level. So, people who go to selective. colleges, elite colleges tend to they're. far more likely to marry one another. than they are to marry someone else. And. then and then but but then college in. general, college graduates. overwhelmingly marry other people who. have at least a bachelor's degree and. then people who don't go to college are. more likely to marry people who, you.

know, don't have bachelor's degrees. Um. I once wrote this piece on my Substack. called The Hidden Marriage Market where. I claimed that that's what a lot of that. that's like one um unspoken function of. the university system. Um. you know, because you could imagine uh. you know, I have a son or a daughter and I want. and I'm evaluating suitors for this. person. um and I ask all of the suitors, all of. the people who are interested in dating. my, you know, my kid, um I need you to submit your IQ scores.

I need all of you to submit um three. recommendation letters from people who. can attest to your character and your. values. I need you to write a personal. statement about your ambitions in your. life. Um and then we're going to have an. interview with you. That's literally. what colleges do. >> Yeah. >> Right, colleges do those things. They. give you a standardized test, they look. at that your academic record, they ask. for um your your family income, too. They like your family has to submit. their income. Um. and and yeah, recommendations and your.

own personal statement and then you do. the interview. And so, by the time these. people enter the campus, they've passed. through this intense screening mechanism. and now you're around all of these. people who are the same age as you, roughly the same social class, level of. intellect, interest, and so on. And even. if they don't like get married while. they're in college, they go off into. their careers and are mostly around. other people like themselves. Uh and so my claim here was just that, you know, official arranged marriages. um in the US don't exist anymore, but we.

have this implicit soft kind of. inadvertent version of this with the. education system. And I think that this. is one, you know, unspoken reason why. um upper middle class and rich parents. try so furiously hard to get their kids. into private schools and into elite. universities. Part of it is for status, for career reasons, professional. reasons, but another reason is because. like I want my kid to marry someone who. is also like they're thinking about.

status, right? Like I want someone who. is an equivalent social rank to our. family. >> Let me in middle of everything, you used. the word called luxury belief. What are. luxury beliefs? >> Luxury beliefs are ideas and opinions. that confer status on the affluent while. often inflicting costs on the less. fortunate members of society. And a core feature of a luxury belief is. that the believer is sheltered from the. consequences of his or her belief. And.

so we've spoken about luxury goods, you. you know, the elites of the past, they. would exhibit status through loud. luxury, um through their clothing and cars and. fancy uh belongings. And now that, you know, goods are not. seen in the same way anymore, material. possessions, we're in the era of quiet. luxury. Everyone can get an iPhone, everyone can. go to an outlet and buy nice clothes.

What is the way to exhibit your social. rank? Uh now it's through luxury beliefs. Uh and so if you. historically [clears throat] wanted to. distinguish yourself from the masses, from the commoners, you would dress in a. certain way, for example. Now, if you. want to distinguish yourself from the. masses, you express an unconventional, atypical, peculiar opinion that to most. people would sound strange, peculiar,

maybe crazy, but to your own social circle it makes. you seem interesting, educated, sophisticated, compassionate. Um. >> Give me an example. >> So one example of a luxury belief. is the defund the police movement here. in the United States. So defund the. police was extremely popular among. elites in the US from 2020 to 2021, that. era. Uh there was this massive push. against law enforcement. There were some.

cities that did reduce funding for. police in the wake of this movement. There was a famous headline in the New. York Times that said, "Yes, we literally. mean abolish the police.". And. you know, I was on social media. We were. That was it was kind of during the COVID. lockdown period. I was sitting there. scrolling like everyone else and I'm. like, "How is this like How is this even. >> a thing. >> a discussion? Obviously, we need. police." I grew up poor, like I you. know,

when I was a young guy, I didn't like. the cops that much, but sometimes I. liked having the cops, you know, kind of. depends like are you the one in danger. or you the one causing the danger? >> [laughter]. >> Uh whether you want the cops around. Um. but sometimes it was good to have cops. around, especially in a poor. neighborhood where there's a lot of. people who misbehave and could. potentially threaten you. It's especially important for um elderly. people and for women to have cops. around. Um. and so I was looking at this the the. headlines and the posts online and the. news articles, the opinion pieces.

And then I was looking at the survey. data. You know, I was you know. waist-deep in my PhD program, you know, social scientist. Okay, well, you know, what did the actual data say? What is. public opinion on this discussion of. defund the police? Overwhelmingly, most Americans were. against it. But then when you broke down. the responses, should we defund the. police? Break down the responses by. income category, it was always the the. highest income Americans were always the. most in favor of defunding the police. The lowest income Americans were always. the least in favor. And then when you. broke it down by political orientation.

and by race, it was always white progressives who. were the most in favor of defunding the. police. Black and Hispanic Democrats much less. in favor of it. Asian Americans much. less in favor. It was you know, people. who were. you know, to use their kind of like. privileged. You know, people who were. educated, had six-figure incomes, who. were advantage in many ways. They lived. in gated communities, safe. neighborhoods, and they were not. threatened by crime, but.

a lot of these neighborhoods during that. same period when funding for police. declined and the attitude around law. enforcement became more hostile, you would read about how rich. neighborhoods in Chicago, they were. hiring off-duty cops to patrol their. neighborhoods. You read about how. people in Manhattan were fleeing to the. Hamptons because things got a little bit. disorderly here and the police weren't. enforcing the law. So, these a lot of. these people who publicly would say, "We. need to rethink policing. We need to. remove law enforcement." And then they.

hire their off-duty security guards, police. They would go to their you know, safe place in the Hamptons. They would. find places where they could remain. safe. There are other examples of luxury. beliefs. You know, I you mentioned tech. bros. I have a lot of tech bro friends, too, but I have sometimes been hard on. them. because you know, there is an example of. a luxury belief among a lot of the tech. titans, which is um. they publicly have profited.

by advertising addictive technologies. Um, you know, phones, apps, social. media, all of these kinds of things. Um, they have elevated their status, their visibility, their wealth. Um, but then when you look at their own. personal lives, a lot of them exercise. very strict control over their. themselves and their own families for. how much they use these devices. Um, Steve Jobs famously would not allow. his children to use iPads. Um, and now. you go to, you know, kind of any. restaurant, especially in a restaurant. in a low-income part of the US, and you.

see toddlers with, you know, they're. glued to their iPad. Um, and you see this borne out in the survey. data that children in families that earn. less than $50,000 a year spend twice as. much time on their devices as children. in families that earn more than $100,000. a year. So, it's the difference between. 3 hours a day for those high-income. families, kids spend about 3 hours a day. on their devices. For low-income. families, kids spend about 6 hours a day. on their devices. In my book, Troubled,

I write about, um, you know, what I. think of as, um, maybe. the most, um, uh, the most important, the most, uh, damaging luxury belief, which is, uh, this increasing, uh, increasingly relaxed and permissive. attitude around the family, um, and marriage. So, you know, if you look at the outcomes. for children raised in fragmented,

unstable, deprived, dysfunctional homes, um, those kids have far worse outcomes. than children raised in intact, two-parent, married homes. Uh, and yet, um, when you look at the survey data and. you ask representative samples of. Americans, um, you know, is it important for, um, the parents to be married before they. have kids? Uh, high-income people are, um, the least likely to say yes. They're. the most outwardly skeptical of marriage.

as an institution. I had these. conversations with. classmates at Yale for example, where. they would say um. you know, marriage is this outdated. patriarchal institution. It's this thing. some of them, you know, the more sort of. feminist. oriented ones would say it was this. institution that men created to control. women or something or it's this. retrograde backwards. primitive construct that we need to. evolve beyond. We need to rethink or dismantle. marriage. And then I would ask them,

"How were you raised personally in your. own life?" And overwhelmingly it was, you know, I was raised by my mom and dad. in a two-parent home. They got married. And then I would ask, "How do you plan. to you know, raise your own kids? Are. you planning to have a family? What are. you going to do in your life?" And they. would say, "Look, I was raised by my mom. and dad. I'd get married, have kids. I'll probably do the same for my kids. Um but personally I think like we do. need to rethink this institution and get. past it. And what I what I was hearing.

Raj as someone who didn't grow up with a. family. Um. not with any permanent family. These you know, these people at this. elite college, they were saying, "I. benefited from this institution marriage. that allowed me to study at a place like. Yale. I plan to carry this benefit. forward for my own kids. But my official public position is we. shouldn't do this thing. We should get. past it. Don't don't do this." All. right, so how does this actually work?

You know, you have these elites, you. have the luxury belief class. They're. espousing all of these ideas. But how. does that actually affect behavior? Like. how is it that, you know, some, you. know, rich educated person says something and. then people in a poor neighborhood, like. how does it change their behavior? What. is the mechanism here? And. there's a lot of interesting research on. how the behavior and the attitudes and. the expressed opinions of elites do. change policy, change culture, change.

attitudes. But I like to. I like to just give people a concrete. example of how luxury beliefs might. work. Um. you know, imagine, you know, we wake up. tomorrow and you start to see. you know, politicians, CEOs, founders, influencers, journalists, academics, people with some kind of a platform, some kind of influence, um a certain degree of prestige in. society, and they all start voicing some.

version of the same idea, the same idea. here being um. littering isn't a big deal. >> Mhm. >> Um you know, we need to rethink. littering. Um. right now it's stigmatized, but maybe we. should remove that stigma from. littering. Um you know, you start reading in glossy. magazine pieces or you see short-form. video reels of you know, very. high-profile people saying, you know, if. you want to throw your trash out the. window, it's totally fine. We need to. stop judging people for this.

Um you turn on your favorite television. show on Netflix or whatever, and you're. seeing the characters casually throw. trash on the ground and keep moving. And. you know, the the messaging seems to. converge on this idea of either I'm. it it's perfectly fine to litter or. um you know, it's one choice among many. You want to. litter, that's okay. You don't want to. litter, that's fine, too. We should just. stop judging people for doing this. Would anyone be surprised if.

5 years from now, 10 years from now, a. generation from now, you start seeing a. divergence in terms of the cleanliness. of different neighborhoods. You go to a. rich neighborhood, still clean, still. pristine, people are still taking care. of their garbage in the usual way, throwing it in the trash can and. recycling and everything. And then you. go to the poor neighborhoods and you. just see filth and squalor and trash. everywhere. Well, that's that's the. mechanism. That's how it works is, you. know, people who, you know, come up with. this uh interesting idea,

non-judgmental, it makes you look. interesting, compassionate, um. there's a maybe there's even a bit of. pleasure at provoking people. Um. And. this is a way of achieving distinction. Oh, the ordinary person says, "We should. throw trash away in a bin and recycle.". Well, you know, I'm going to say the. opposite of that and it'll make me look. different and you'll be able to know I'm. not a normal commoner. >> the opposite thing. >> Yes. And and so this is how it works. with a lot of the luxury beliefs. Not.

all of them, but but many of them. Yeah. Um so I think this happened with. marriage. I think it happened to some. degree with um. uh drug legalization, decriminalization. A lot of people believe uh that drug. decriminalization is favored mostly by. poor people. Actually, they're the least. in favor of decriminalizing drugs. because they live in the neighborhoods. where there's a lot of drug use and a. lot of squalor. Um whereas, you know, for a lot of rich people, they want to. be compassionate and so they oh, let's. just decriminalize it. They tried this. experiment in Oregon and uh other places.

and. you know, it just uh increased human. suffering. Um. so, you know, the the luxury beliefs. idea to me is. people are chasing status in a certain. kind of way. And unlike the productive kinds of. status games you and I were talking. about before, the kinds with spillover. benefits, you do this thing for selfish. reasons, but other people are benefiting. as a consequence. This is the inverse of. that where I'm chasing status for. selfish reasons and other people are. being harmed. And that's actually to me.

um. it's a toxic status game. >> You know, this gets me to a point. Tell. me. what kind of conversations on a dinner. table people are having. What kind of conversations a person. who's stuck and broke and probably is. middle class not able to get out of this. the situation where he or she is. What. do they talk on a dinner table versus. someone who's in top 1% already is an. elite. What do they talk? Because a lot.

of things. whether it's hypocrisy, seriousness, their. attention, intention, or beliefs, all of this also will manifest into the. kind of life that they're living, right? And the kind of conversation that they. will do around all of these things. might. have some consequence or might have some. effect on the success that they're going. to achieve, right? So what kind of. conversation these two different people. are having? >> talking about like a middle class family. and like a very wealthy. >> who's stuck versus someone who's in the.

top 1%. I like bunch of these different things. though. >> Okay. Okay. >> These are the topics. >> Okay, I see. >> I'd say someone who is. >> stuck in 1%. >> Interesting. Um. I'm. Okay, I'm going to assume this means. formal education. Um not not just sort of. >> of dinner table conversation these guys. are having? So do you think Oh, the. someone who's in middle class stuck. they're talking about education? >> Right.

>> Someone who's top 1% is gossiping? >> Yeah. Yeah. I I hear far more gossip. among well-known people. I they yeah. It's uh you you maybe wouldn't. necessarily expect it, but um no, the. >> They are the ones who gossip more than. you. >> The topics of yeah, who's doing what in. their careers or who's dating who. Um I think it yeah, there's more gossip. Um. >> In top 1%. >> Um. status status. Um I think this would be. a 1% uh discussion here.

You know, the reason being as we've as. we've discussed, um people who have lots. of status are interested in obtaining. more and even if that word itself. doesn't come up, it is a lot of. discussion around career, success, investments, properties, what's next, you know, how's how's your company. doing, how's your book doing, how's your. thing going, how are your kids doing, kids are kind of a status symbol as. well, how successful your kids are. Um.

>> Where did you go for vacation? What kind. of things you're buying? What. >> Exactly. What are you talking. >> traveling this year? How much did your kid achieve? >> [snorts]. >> Yes. Yeah, yeah. No, no, totally. Definitely more ideas here. I mean, I I. I I think this is also So, ideas can be. kind of intertwined with status, talking. about interesting things, but also um. Oh, people who are interested in ideas, um. you know, they tend to be more. uh. introspective, thoughtful,

um. academically inclined, and all of those. things also predict kind of professional. success as well. Um and then often what I find uh. around you know, like like founders and. and people who have. built a successful career, no longer. have to worry about money, suddenly, you. know, they're asking me for reading. lists. You know, they'll see you know, something I post or something I've. written about and you know, they'll. email me or ask me, you know, like, "Hey, like, can you send me a reading. list on this or this or that topic?" And. it's not for um.

formal education reasons, it's for their. own edification, their own. self-development. Um they've done the thing in the. professional career, now they want to. develop themselves internally and learn. about psychology or history or. philosophy, literature. Failures. Ooh. Hmm. This is a tough one. I I'm So, I'm. tempted to put it. in. maybe this side. >> Who talks about failure? Do you think. the past traumas, the failures, oh, I.

failed here, I failed there, and I'm. they're just always stuck in these. conversations. Who's talking about that more? >> I think publicly. I think there's a a public private. difference here, and this is why I'm. torn. So, publicly, I think the top 1%. will talk about their failures more. because it humanizes them. >> Okay. >> It makes them seem modest. It makes them. seem relatable. You know, people love, you know, oh, like uh if uh I don't. know, Steve Jobs or Bill Gates or. someone super successful says, you know, hey, like when I applied for this job, I. got rejected. When I tried this, I.

failed. You know, some. >> Yeah, it was a visual show back then. Yeah. >> Yeah, visual show or yeah, like a a. Sometimes I'll listen to podcasts with. comedians, and they're hilarious, but. they'll talk, you know, they'll talk. about the early days, getting booed off. the stage. Um and there's something, you. know, just uh uh uh humanizing about. hearing about that. But privately, I don't think they talk. much about failure. Um I think it's the. reverse. among people who are not doing as well, where publicly, they don't want to talk. about their failures. They want to. conceal. They want you to think maybe.

they're doing better than they really. are. But privately, uh among trusted friends or family, it. is like, you know, how are we going to. pay the bills? How are we going to make. ends meet? Um. relationship problems. >> Interesting. >> So, at a dinner table, these guys are. talking. On a stage, these guys are. talking. >> About failure, yes. Yeah, failure. Maybe. Should I put it here? >> Yeah, put it in the middle here. >> Okay. Um debt. Oh, that's an interesting. one. Um. >> What is it? >> I think debt. >> Okay.

>> Donald Trump loves to say like, I'm the. king of debt. I love debt. But, you. know, that's you know, for for. business-related reasons, whereas like I. think like kind of personal debt, credit card debt, >> Yeah. >> um that kind of thing is more people who. are stuck. Health. Um. I mean, there are probably more actual. health challenges on this side. Um. >> talking more about. the. negatives of health. These guys are. talking more about optimizing the 1%. athlete performance sort of health.

>> Yeah, cuz I'm thinking here, you know, there's probably discussions around. medical bills, insurance, illness-related things, but. um. I still you know, cuz I I still spend. time around you know, family and friends. that I grew up with and I'm just anec-. you know, relying on anecdotes and. personal experience. I still think. health is more discussed. >> Double income. >> Yeah, the top 1%. Um. >> Even I think so. >> Yeah, risks.

Hm. Risk, risk, risk. I'll hold off on that one. All right, criticism. Uh so, is this like uh criticizing. others? You know, like sort of related. to the gossip uh. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Um. >> Or self-criticism. >> Self-criticism. Um hm hm. I think I would put it here, um. criticism. >> Okay. >> Top 1%. Uh. you know, discussing yeah, uh. their failures or things that they're.

doing wrong or criticizing other people, employees or colleagues. Um cuz gossip. [clears throat and snorts] would be. >> Yeah, so maybe I should put next to the. next to gossip. >> They complain. >> Yes, and more complaining. Relationships, probably here because. there's more challenges around you know, when you when your relationship's happy, you don't talk about it. When you have. options and that kind of. >> stability is a big part of how good your. relationship's going on. >> Yes, yeah. Oh, no, that's totally yeah, that's it smooths things out. It's one.

less thing you have to argue about. Job, probably here, you know, I mean. >> Yeah, these guys are not talking about. job for sure. >> Yeah, uh competition. Interesting. Oh, how would I put in competition? I. mean, there's there's there's. competition here to get jobs or to get. um you know, valued resources, things. that they couldn't otherwise get, but. here, because competition is so tightly. intertwined with status, I'm almost. tempted to put it here.

>> Yeah. >> Um, where they're more concerned with, um, yeah, their their uh competitors, who's getting ahead of them, who's doing. better, who's doing worse, whose kids. got into which school, and you know, what your kids, how are they doing? Identity. >> [sighs]. >> I think it I think it would belong here. as well. >> belief thing and all of those things. >> You know what's interesting, Raj, on the. identity point? So, um, my biological mother, uh, was. Korean, and she suffered from drug.

addiction. And I was born in LA. Uh, and she came to the US from Seoul. And I went my whole life not knowing my. father's side. My father was Mexican, but I didn't learn that until later when. I took a genetic ancestry test as an. adult. But, I grew up in kind of a. Hispanic and white working-class area in. California, and I never once really. thought much about like being. Asian-American in any way. Um, it wasn't until I got to Yale, uh, that and there's a lot of Asians on. campus and uh, suddenly like it became a.

question people would ask me about, like, how do you relate to being Korean. or your Asian identity? Or like, you. know, how attached do I feel? Uh, when I. became a writer, outlets started editors. would approach me, "Hey, there's this. thing in the news about affirmative. action or or, you know, the Asian. students suing Harvard or this that and. the Do you have anything to say about. it?" And the issue around identity is. far more, I think, among kind of. upper-middle class and above of, you. know, being preoccupied with this thing,

taking pride in it, having um, an. opinion about it. Whereas, I think, yeah, when you're stuck, when you're. struggling, it's, you know, it's it's. not unimportant, but you're more focused. on, you know, survival, getting ahead, doing doing good well for yourself, and. then trying to set your kids up for. success and you don't have as much time. to kind of navel gaze and think about, you know, these these broader abstract. issues. Politics here. Uh it's much more uh dinner table. conversation.

You know what's funny about politics, Raj, is um. you know, I grew up around poor and. working class people and they thought. and I remember I absorbed this both. where I grew up and then later in the. military too, there was this belief that. um. you know, to the elites politics is just. a game. It doesn't matter who wins the. presidency because the same people. control the country anyway and they all. want you know, they they make you think. politics matters, but really, you know, whether whether this person or that. person gets elected, this person or that.

person's in power in the end like, you. know, it's the same people. Um. and so it's kind of this. uh smoke screen. And so I grew up thinking like, oh, elites don't care about politics because. they all have power anyway. And then I. start entering these elite institutions. they're obsessed with politics. They're. yeah, you know, we have all this. education and income that correlate with. likelihood of voting, likelihood of. posting about politics online, um sending donations to favorite. political candidates. It's way more. politics is it's like literally the.

opposite of what I thought growing up is. like actually the low information voter, the people who don't care about. politics, they're lower income, less. educated, whereas the higher up you go, the more likely you are to hear about. people who are concerned and preoccupied. with politics and speak about it a lot. Investments here. Uh. and then I think uh just because um I. feel like this side's so heavy and this. side's so light. I mean, risk, [laughter]. you know, it's it's I guess there are. different ways of thinking about it. Like obviously I think like financial.

risk, maybe career risk here, but then in terms of like, you know, actual. um. impulsive risk taking, gambling, drug. addiction, life risk, health risk, um. you know, run-ins with law enforcement. Um there's a lot more kind of risk and. discussion of risk here. You know, I had. sort of friends and cousins and people. who would take very um uns- you know,

unsafe and and um. foolhardy risks. Um and then that would. often become a topic of conversation of. >> So, tell me, if you look at this right. now, what is one pattern you can. understand about conversations which. is being done on tables of. top 1% versus what is one pattern here? >> Hm. We we I think these are generally more. abstract and these are more concrete. Um this is more sort of how to get.

ahead, how to survive, how to take care. of yourself and your family. Um and it's. more. um focused on on people, you know, I put. relationships here. Whereas this one, it's focused more um. it's kind of what? More individualistic. and more abstract simultaneously, where. there's more selfishness here about your. own success and your own accomplishment. and your own ways of getting ahead. Um. but then it's also very distant from the.

person when you think about ideas and. identity and politics. These are very. abstract, distant things. Whereas here, um it's less sort of individualistic and. selfish, but it is sort of about your. own life and your relationships and the. people around you. Um less about appearing. important or. um. being seen in a certain way and more. just sort of, you know, paddling, you. know, sort of to to to stay afloat and. and hopefully find ways to to get ahead.

>> Do you think like this side is. they mostly focus and talk about things. which will affect them immediately or in. a short term. And this side they don't. >> Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, that makes it. especially on this side that this is. more sort of long-term, future-oriented, and this is more maybe present-oriented. >> Mhm. >> Um. that yeah, there's uh. more concerned with what's immediately. in front of you. You're not thinking in. terms of. years or decades.

Um whereas here, uh you know, people are. they're thinking about their legacy or. their children or their grandchildren. setting up their their not just their. futures, but the future for their. um you know, their descendants. [clears throat]. So. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Let's do a thought experiment. If we put. 10 people in one. house. for a month and we remove their. job title, income, followers, status, education, nothing. We just take away. their identities and all these things.

which give them status away. [clears throat] from them and put them. in one room for one house for a month. After the end of month, do you think. people who are high status in real life. will end up again rising to the top? >> Uh okay. So you you strip the person of. all of their accomplishments and. everything. >> Like don't tell them like everybody. lives anonymous in anonymity. >> Okay. >> But we all know who they are. Like you. and I will know because there are 10. people. >> That would be a great game show. That. would be fun to [laughter] do.

>> Like do you think people who have. understood the game and they are in the. top 1% high status people, they'll. eventually somehow either through dark. triad traits or the way they've been. wired will end up figuring out a way to. rise to the top or no? >> I think um. yes. Generally speaking, yes. I. if you live in more or less kind of a. meritocratic society, which you know, there's no perfect meritocracy, but.

generally speaking, um. if people are evaluated mostly by their. skills and their ambition and so on, and. you kind of strip them of all of their. accomplishments, everyone, high and low, and put them together, I think you'll see the same patterns. reemerge. Um. And there's I mean, there's been a lot. of interesting work on this. There's an. economic historian, Gregory Clark, who's. done this work of he finds, um that you. can he he's done this through the study. of surnames in the UK and Japan and in.

other countries where, you know, something like I think 25%. of the CEOs in Japan have samurai. ancestry. You know, and there's no. there's no benefits to being a samurai. or having samurai DNA today, but they. are the descendants of the aristocrats, of people who, um you know, were at the. top back in the day. And so, I think you. you know, you would see something like. that reemerge, the same kind of, um. broad, you know, hierarchies.

>> who determine what determines who rises. to the top? >> Well, I think status seeking in and of. itself, like interest in status. So, sometimes I'll I'll I'll draw this. analogy to hunger, right? So, everyone. experiences hunger, right? We all need. food. Everyone gets hungry at some. point. But, the. um. frequency and the intensity of that. hunger varies from person to person. Some people, they they're not even that. interested in food, they just need it. because they have to. Other people, they. can't stop eating, they love food so. much, and they can't stop thinking about. food. It's same with status, where.

everyone to some degree like status, they crave status, they're satisfied by. status, but it varies where some people. that's all they think about, that's all. they can focus on, um it's their. favorite topic, in the same way that for. a foodie, food is their favorite topic. And then for status, there are others. who are humble, like genuinely humble. They would be happy being a priest or a. monk, or being someone who's just, you. know, they like being liked, but it's. not their number one priority. Um. and I think the people who are at that. extreme end, um.

you know, the the the status you know, the equivalent of the obese status. seeking types, like they are going to. pursue it with this kind of. determination and ferocity. But status. seeking alone is not enough. You also. need um you know, to to to to be. intelligent, to have um. uh. you know, form good alliances, gain. people's trust, do things that other. people find valuable. And yeah, be. willing to put yourself out there. Have. some um ability to tolerate risk uh as.

well. And you know, so I think if you. you know, you just kind of see, you. know, people who are successful, look at. their traits and those are generally the. traits that will predict success. Um. there are exceptions to this if people. uh. with nepotism or inheritance or. something like that. But if you look at. self-made successful people, you'll find. that they share a lot of the same traits. in common. And you know, often you can. see. >> [snorts]. >> these predictors. Um. social mobility has been studied a lot. in in the US and in other countries and.

you see, okay, here's a kid who's born. into a low-income family, very. unpromising circumstances. What are the. predictors of, you know, the of the. let's say you have 100 kids born poor, you know, 20 of them. grow up and they're no longer poor. What. do those 20 people have in common? And. it's some combination of impulse. control, uh conscientiousness, intelligence, uh patience, uh. willingness to. uh delay gratification, uh good with. people, good at communicating, uh an.

interest in ideas, um. following through on their promises, that kind of thing. And then you there's. also some interesting work on downward. mobility. Psychologists have studied um. uh children born into uh higher-income. families that um later in life oh, slide. downward, slide downward. Um so they. slip down the ladder. They do not. replicate their own parents' level of. success, and they also have traits in. common, which are almost the opposite of. those upwardly mobile people, which is.

um. uh emotional impulsivity. Um so, they. tend to be very dramatic in their. emotional presentation. They have. difficulty delaying gratification. They're often very confrontational with. other people. They don't have. um. uh the ability to get along well with. people. They're um you know, sort of. exquisitely sensitive to um. uh the feeling that other people don't. like them. Uh explosive. Um. and often, you know, they they are less. uh intelligent than their parents, less. academically inclined than their.

parents. Uh so, you can see this in both. directions, and I think there are kind. of lessons to be drawn on both sides. >> Steven, when you say that there are. people who are status-seeking, and you. that that is a big driver whether a. person will end up. getting status or no in life, right? This can also mean. there's desperation. Mhm. A lot of. people can be desperate to seek status. Can you smell desperation? >> Can you smell desperation? Oh, yeah. >> [laughter]. >> Well, it it's sometimes Yes, there are.

there are cases where people are. extremely transparent. Um almost to the. point of um. like yeah, like it become it can be. comedic when someone is so openly uh. like I've I've been to parties here in. New York garage where someone will come. up to they'll recognize me or something. And then they'll say like, "Who else. Like, where are all the famous people. here at this party?" They'll just say. it. Like, they don't even, you know, they're just like, "Where are all the. famous people here?" I'm like, "Damn, like just like that, huh?" Like, so. transparently nakedly like, "I only want.

to talk to people who are high status. here." Um. so, in that case, you can, you know, yeah, you smell it, you see it, you. taste it, it's right there. >> But, you want to stay away from them, right? >> Right. Oh, no, it's it's an immediate. kind of like, you know, >> I'd advise. >> Yeah, like I don't want to be around. this person anymore. >> So, tell me tell me a tasteful way of. doing it. Like, what does some. What does somebody do when they're. actually desperate, but they don't want. to show that they're desperate? >> Oh, I see. They They don't ask you for. anything at first, and in fact, they may.

even um help you in some ways, right? Like, maybe they want something from. you, so they They know that you have a. connection to someone, and they want to. get a job at that person's company, and. they know that you know that person. Uh but for, let's say, you know, 6. months, uh all this person does is like, "Hey, found this article, thought it was. interesting, sending it your way.". Um or hey, like, there's a There's a. party over here. There are a couple of. people I want you to meet. Like, come. hang out. And you know, you kind of do. this. Like, find benefits, don't ask for.

anything, just be helpful and cheerful. and polite. And then, after a few. months, you know, you sort of establish. a rapport, and then it's like, "Oh, hey, you know this guy, and like, I saw there. was a job opening. Would love if you. could put me in touch." And, you know, and it feels organic. It doesn't feel um. coercive. >> Yeah, exactly. And I think that's That's. like a a better uh approach. More More. chances of success. Higher chances of. success. >> Interesting. Do people play status games. all the time in their heads?

>> Um. I I don't think I don't think all the. time. I think status is important, but. it's not the only. It's not the only. um. concern people have, but it's. often uh an important one. Uh when you look at um. you know, a lot of the neuroscience, neuroimaging research, um. there's a part of the the brain they. call it the default mode network. And. when people are at rest, they're not.

actively engaged in a particular task. You know, you put them in an fMRI, and. some some of them they're like, "Oh, do. these puzzles, do these tasks. Tell us. what you think about this, that, or the. other." When you just like sort of let. people, you know, let your mind wander, think about what you want, um certain. regions of the brain activate and those. are the same regions of the brain. that are active when we are thinking. about other people, when we're thinking. about ourselves. It's very socially. oriented our mind. You know, some people. there are exceptions where they're very. interested in material things, concrete. things or abstract ideas. They're not.

interested in as in people as much, but. most people when you just let your mind. wander, it's you start thinking about. your social circle, you start thinking. about people, you start thinking about. your reputation, you start thinking. about your relationships, social. connections and contact and so. and and status is a huge part of that. But, you know, that I think status is. not it's not the only thing. I don't. want to overstate oh, it's all about. status, but it's just one important. thing among many. >> Interesting. And if somebody if they've.

put you in. a low status box. >> Okay. >> Can you get out of that? >> What kind of box are we talking about? >> Let's say you. you are someone. and you go to an important networking. event. You go to important people. and then they've automatically or maybe. because of some signs or maybe first. time you're not dressed well or your. accent the 10 words are not. good enough. They've put you in a low. status box already. >> Okay. >> Can you get out of it?

>> Oh, sure. >> Because there are some people, right? They they're all in a group of equal. people as well. They're always getting interrupted. They're always the ones who are not. being taken seriously. They're always. the ones who are being cut by other. people. They they just. somehow they end up being low status and. nobody hears them. They're unseen people, invisible. >> Yeah, no, you're you're right. There's. yeah, a lot of interesting research on. this of. you know, lower status people get.

interrupted more often. They they speak. more softly. They take up less space. with their bodies. Um. But. yeah, you can you can um find ways to, you know, repair some of those things. where you you can learn uh take. elocution lessons and learn to speak. louder and more clearly. You can uh. practice body language. You can take. improv classes. There are, you know, there are successful stories of people. who glow up. Maybe. uh not in the same context, right? Like. sometimes you can get stuck if you're in.

a social group and you're kind of like. at the bottom at the office that you. work at, for example. Sometimes it can just be easier to get a. different job. You know, you're at this. job, you're at the bottom, and then you. work on self-improvement and developing. yourself, and then. it can still because people have. categorized you, and it can be hard to. break out of that box in that same. context with those same coworkers. But. then you move to a different job, and. you're this person who has these newly. acquired social skills. Uh and maybe you dress differently and. carry yourself more confidently. Uh in.

this new place, you're in a different uh. position in the hierarchy, and uh. and so, you know, instead of trying to. work in the same um. uh space, you can just move somewhere. else, and you'll find that uh. you know, people respond to you in a way. that you want. >> You know, let's do a fun thing. It's. let's make some kind of audit. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> So someone who feels like, "Hey, they're. not being taken seriously. They're good. enough, but then somehow things does. just doesn't work out for them.". >> Okay.

>> Right. If you have to build an audit, like a. self-check, that they can actually audit. themselves by asking them certain. questions. whether and to put themselves whether. they have been they are considered high. status or low status in their group, so. that at least they're self-aware and. they can start working on themselves. >> I think like the ones that people spend. a lot of, you know, education, income, occupational prestige, that kind of. thing. Um. busyness, you know, and and sometimes. these status symbols can change where I. think like it kind of depends among.

successful people, among certain people, being super busy is high status. Oh, I. have no space. I have no time. I have no. whatever. And then for others, it's um. having full control over your time. Um I. don't take meetings. I just kind of go. with the flow. That can be high status, too. Um so I think it it can vary. So if. we're going to do like that kind of. audit you're thinking, I think it would. be like, all right. Well, we're doing an. audit of your status at the office. Or. we're doing an audit of your status um. among your friends. You know, maybe at. at the office you're high status, but in.

your friend group, you're the one who's. always getting teased and made fun of. and bullied. Uh so we're going to talk. about, okay, so you know, tell me about. your history with your friends. You. know, you who gets interrupted more? Who. gets interrupted less? Um you know, you're all deciding on a restaurant. Do. they ever listen to your recommendation. about where to meet up? Um or do you. always get sidelined and ignored? Um you. know, who gets teased and mocked the. most kind of thing? >> for the friends? >> Yeah, among the friends. >> We asked We established few questions. Then with the office, then we will do. family, then we can do society.

>> [laughter]. >> All right. >> [gasps]. >> Yeah. I think that these four are good. status to have. And then let's do. social. >> Yeah. [snorts]. >> Okay, that's also like an important. uh. you know, status game that a lot of. people are playing today. So that's the. five buckets. >> Yeah. >> So friends who get interrupted more and. do they listen to your recommendations. more often and how often? So that's one. question with friends. What about. office? >> In the office. Oh, yeah, yeah. You know, it's um you know, you're How often does your boss request. time with you? Ask for your input. Um.

you know, do your coworkers ask you. questions about yourself? Um. you know, have you been passed over for. a promotion or not? Or have you been. fast-tracked? Um. >> Okay. >> How much information can you Cuz. sometimes this can be hard, but like. you, you know, can imagine you're an. associate at a bank or something. Are. you making more or less than the other. associates? You know, sometimes the the. income categories are not transparent, but um and then.

uh. you know, do you do you ever get. excluded, you know, in email threads and. chains? How. um curt are people with you when they. interact with you? Do they keep it sort. of strictly business or, you know, do. they try to like in- you know, weave in. some some friendly gestures as well to. like smooth out the relationship? Um so, those kinds of things. >> Okay. Then, office done, friends done, family. >> Oh, I think you can Family's a hard one. because the a lot of those roles are. kind of baked in, you know, the mother. role, the father role, children. Um.

but, you know, I think within like. within the context of uh. it's it's hard to think like with with. parents and and children, you know, who's higher status is it's a weird. question. >> Do you get respected enough or no? Because that's. >> Yeah. >> We all have heard of stories where. maybe. the father is the breadwinner and still. not being respected or where mother is. the breadwinner and still not being. respected. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Right? Or maybe kids are. the ones who have.

who have matured, gone to great. colleges, they're. they're doing good for themselves, still. not being respected. So, there are, you know, there's still games. people play inside the family dynamics. as well. At least in majority families. Few good functional families I'm not. talking about. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now, well, I think yeah, what you just. described there of um you know, listening and how much you have how much. respect is conferred to you, do you. know, if you set ground rules for your. kids, do they listen to you, that kind.

of thing. But, I think it's it's harder. because. most most status games are played. between people who are roughly equal um. with one another. Um this was uh. you know, this is a classic book called. Collision of Wills by the sociologist. Roger Goulds. And in this book, he. basically you digs through the data. cross-culturally and so on and finds. that. um most status competitions uh occur. between people who are roughly equal or.

when there's an ambiguity around who. holds higher status. Um and so I think. with with families it's it's it's. complicated um. you know, because you're not you're not. trying to compete for the same roles, right? The the father's not trying to. become the mother, the wife isn't the. the children and yeah, those are all. kind of established, but when you have. um you know, multiple people competing. for the same role at the office or. multiple people in a neighborhood trying. to compete with who has the nicest car, that kind of thing, then the status.

games become more um uh. fierce and more transparent and people. care more um about about winning and. those kinds of things. When there's an ambiguity is an. interesting one where when you have kind. of two people and it's unclear who. actually has uh the higher status, this. can introduce conflict. A simple example. would be um. if you if So usually the boss is older. than the employee. So the boss has high. um rank at the office and um high uh.

respect because he's older and we res-. we respect the elders. But when you have a situation where the. boss is younger than the employee, this. can often introduce conflict uh in a. corporate environment or any work site. because. the younger person knows, "Oh, I'm. supposed to like be nice to you cuz. you're old and we respect our elders, but I have to tell you what to do." And. the older person is thinking to the you. know, "Okay, he's my boss, but who's. this young, you know, upstart? Like what. does he actually know? You know, I was.

you know, I was I've been working at. this company for so many years." And. that kind of thing. Um and so one of the. takeaways from that book was like. actually having some um. uh clear categories for status can be. helpful um cuz it can reduce conflict. We know these are the rules, this is. who's in charge, you respect those. rules, but if we don't know, then. everyone can be vying for status all the. time because nobody knows who's on top. Um. All right. So, yeah, family. >> So, give me one question. >> Yeah. >> How can somebody audit? >> Audit the family?

>> Yeah, like audit their status inside a. family dynamic. Because there's still can be status. games and. there largely the status game. I'm assuming it wouldn't be around money. and competing position. It would be. around. how much love, admiration, and respect. do you bring on table? >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. >> It's a different kind of. status game that you play inside the. family.

>> Now, I think yeah, well, it also depends too on um. Yeah, cuz there can be different roles. if if one person is the breadwinner and. the other person's a stay-at-home. parent. Um. but I think how often are your wishes. respected? >> Are you being valued simply? >> Yeah. Yeah. And and well, how is that. value um. >> Like how do you audit that? >> Yeah, and and I think that would be, you. know, how often are your preferences um. uh taken into consideration. Uh so, for.

something like like a family vacation, right? Like everyone has their. preference, but who tends to prevail. more when they Oh, I want to go to. Florida. I want to go to Hawaii. I want. to go here. Like who tends to be the one. who gets their way? And it doesn't have. to be just for vacations, but just what. are we having for dinner tonight or um. we're all going to go see a movie. Whose. gets to. >> Which movie? >> Yeah, that kind of Yeah, which movie? Um. that kind of thing. And um. Yeah. >> Interesting. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Okay. Then society and then social.

How do you evaluate your status in. society? >> Well, I think society in general. >> means your group, your. some committee, some larger. let's say associations and groups that. you hang out with or networking events. that you go to. >> Yeah. [clears throat]. Um hmm. How So so what would be a question. there? Um. Yeah, how how often um.

I mean, if we're talking about sort of. social gatherings and networking events. and so on, how often do those. interactions lead to anything concrete? >> And how often do you get invited? >> Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Uh. yeah, how often do you get the uh you. know, the Luma or the party full uh. invite? Um. And yeah, so so how often do you get. invited and then how often do those. interactions lead to anything? Uh not. doesn't even necessarily have to be. material, but you go and then you get. invited to more things. That could be.

one measure. Uh and then it could also be um you. know, does it [clears throat] does this. lead to you know, profitable. opportunities of one kind or another? >> Interesting. And then social on like. internet, on social media, is there a. way to audit? >> Uh I mean, that seems like the easiest. one of all is just how many followers. >> But there's also an interesting one here. um. where it it your status on social media. can depend on your overall level of. followers, and that's kind of the first. thing most people notice. The other thing though, um which I'm.

finding because. you know, there's there's there's. quantity, but then there's also quality. And it's not just how many you have, but. who's following you. So you could. imagine one guy on Instagram has a. million followers, but he's followed by. no one you've ever heard of or known. It's all just, you know, ordinary. people. And then you have this other. account that's that literally only has. three followers and no one else. And the. three people, it's like Barack Obama, Elon Musk, and George Clooney. And no. one else follows this guy. I think that.

second guy you'd be like, "Whoa, like. >> most attracted to? The first guy. >> Yeah, like what's going on here? Like. you literally have three followers and. it's like super famous people. Um and so. I think those two things. We do some. kind of rough. uh calculation in our mind of how many. and then who. And I've done this, too. Like sometimes when I'm deciding, you. know, who to who to uh connect with or. who to speak with or whatever and I'm. like, oh, like let me pull them up on. Twitter or whatever. I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. And um oh, we have. this guy in common and then you can talk. about the mutuals that you follow and.

that kind of thing, too. >> Interesting. Okay, so that's the audit. Now, tell me three immediate things. which this person can do in next 12. months. to take themselves from low status to. high status. >> [laughter]. >> Let's say after audit, this person has. gotten like. >> Yeah. man. >> Yeah. >> Things are hard. >> Yeah. Three things that the person can. do. Well, I would need to know sort of. where they're at now because, you know, if you have some. >> low status and they're failing almost.

everywhere. There's no There's no. cultural capital, there's no economic. capital, there's no embodied capital. >> Yeah. >> There is no. >> I literally So, so the thing you. mentioned embodied capital, the most. accessible, you know, assuming the. person has no disabilities and so on, the thing that they could immediately do. to. um. start on the path toward elevating. themselves and improving themselves is. physical fitness. >> Yeah. >> Um. it partially for actual physical. reasons, you know, you lift weights, you. can physically look better over time,

but there's a psychological component, too, where you feel physically more. confident and more capable and this can. be reflected in your interactions um. and, you know, clothes can fit you. better and that, too, can um put you on. a path toward being more appealing as a. friend or as a romantic partner. Um so I. think like, you know, it's kind of sad. to say because it's so superficial, but. I think I would start literally there. with um. getting on a fitness routine, cleaning. up your diet, figuring that out. And. then um clothing, you know, what are you.

wearing? Find clothes that fit, find you. know, if you feel like. you're not doing your laundry, like I. got to like clean clothes that fit you. Maybe get a good haircut, do some basic. grooming. So like just so that when you. step out into the social world, you look. as high as your genetic ceiling will. allow you to look. Try to hit that ceiling. And then and then from there, I think it. would be okay, well, where are your. strengths and weaknesses? And because if you're not if you're not. academically inclined, I don't think. it's like makes sense to force you to.

apply for colleges and grad school and. all this stuff. But. if you're gifted musically or. athletically or something like that, you know, I had one friend who who was. kind of like he was. kind of short, not especially good He. wasn't like horrible. He was a very. average-looking short guy. And he worked at Walmart. And you know, just in his life he wasn't doing great. But [snorts] he had a super hot. girlfriend. And I asked like, oh, how. did how did you guys meet? And he told. me, oh, like he worked part-time as a.

swimming coach. Uh he likes swimming, he likes the. water, and he taught swimming. And she. just happened to be at this public pool. watching him engage with kids. And like. he was in his role as a very competent, capable um you know, a skillful person. in that context. And because she saw him. that in that way, you know, she was attracted to him. And. they, you know, got together. Whereas, you know, maybe if she had seen him at. Walmart or something, things would have. gone differently. Um but I think that would be it is like, where are your strengths and interests?

And then just try to get good at that. thing. Try to do it in public. You know, if you're swimming coach, obviously in. public, but you know, whether it's music. or speaking, if you're interested in. comedy, just something that can. that's a skill set that you have a. little bit of talent that you can build. on. And then. uh exhibit that talent in a public way. >> So, you said the top three would be first is. work on your fitness, second is figure. it out your appearance, clothing, and. get better at that. And third is find.

out a skill or a hobby that you're good. at where you're interested, and then get. really, really. >> Yeah. >> really good at that one particular. thing. So that you have these three. things going on in next 12 months you. can elevate your status a little bit. >> Yes. And then and then you know, don't. be shy about it. Don't, you know, hide. your interest in your skill. You know, I. I remember I had this conversation Raj. with. this guy he's now a friend of mine, but. we initially had these these discussions. where he was on the dating apps. He was. trying to find, you know, partner.

And I didn't know him when we first had. this discussion, but I asked him, "Oh, like what are you know, what are your. pictures like? What do you you know, what do you do for work? This, that, and. the other." And he was a doctor. He was. a physician. And I was like, "Oh, like. you should be, you know, have some. options at least. I mean, maybe you. haven't found the person yet, but you. should be having He's like, "I don't I. don't even get any matches." I'm like, "How are you not getting matches as a. doctor? How's this possible?". And I said, "Do you have photos of. yourself? And do you have your. occupation on your profile?" And he. said, "No." And I said, "Well, why not?".

And he said, "You know, I don't want the. girls to think I'm trying too hard or. that I'm like trying to impress them or. like I could you know, they only. like I don't want them to think like. this is who I am, my whole identity.". And I'm like, "Dude, like you're. competing against thousands of other men. for the attention of a limited number of. attractive women. You got to stand out. in some way." I was like, "You worked. hard to get into medical school, become. a doctor, do all of this, and you're not. going to use this? Like it's you know, you should advertise this about.

yourself. Advertise your best qualities. Put your best foot forward. Um. and yeah, don't get in your own way. So. >> You know, my top three would be. to go from low status to high status in. next 12 months. First is. work on your body. >> Mhm. >> Like physical fitness. >> Yeah. >> That's. the most important thing. Second is. cultural capital. Find out something. that you're interested in and then build. a taste around that. Like go really,

really niche and deep in that. So, let's. say you're interested in, for example, I don't know, water. Okay, it's like. random thing, but then go really deep in. water and then you find out like what. are these things and. what kind of world and what are the. water tasting facilities around the. world and go super niche. Build that. really good and sane taste around that. And then third is. start writing about it on Substack. >> [laughter]. >> If you do that for a very specific.

topic, yeah, very niche for 12 months. and you physically upgrade yourself and. you develop your taste, I think you can. really go from low status to high. status. And it can be anything. It can. be about. it can be about real estate. It can be. about automobiles. It can be about just. the wires which are there in an. airplane. It can be about weight. It can be about. just. mindset of some. uh you know, mindset of people who come. second. And that's where that Here's a.

trick I I talk about this a lot more. amongst my friends that if you pick up. something super niche, you can come. you can become the top 10 people in that. industry or top 10 experts in that. industry or in that particular subject. very soon because there are only 10. people writing. >> [laughter]. >> Like you are amongst the 10 because. there are only 10 people who care about. this. But. like when you go that and then just. become like build something. You know, I. write on Substack. Not many people know. this. I write about something super. niche. Though my entire work is so massy.

and everywhere and like you can see me. with millions of views doing so many. things, but I write about a very. specific topic and I've. kept it that way for specific reason. because I love that. That's just like. passion project. I I about what the next. generation is consuming. And I just want to understand. what is my generation, my younger. brother's generation, and then my. younger cousin's generation is actually. consuming. What are they consuming? How. are they thinking? That's it. And I.

don't care about. how many views, how many readers, how. many people will follow me. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I'm surprised that more than I. started it like. not even 6 months ago. I've never. promoted it. I'm talking about it on. podcast for the first time. And then. more than 100k subscribers on Substack. >> Wow. Now, that's really. >> knows. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And I'm so And the And when you see the. countries and where are the new. followers coming up. None of the new followers are coming. from the country which where I'm. popular. >> Huh. Okay. [laughter].

Where are they? Like, can I ask like. where are the readers? Are they. >> Like, from all around the world. My. podcast is really big in Asia and India, right? And started just picking up in. States and Canada and Australia and New. Zealand and UK. And I'm just all these. countries. But most of the people that I get from. are Europe. Most of the people that I'm. getting from are US. And I'm surprised. >> Yeah. Huh. >> It's like. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> This is great. >> Yeah. >> But it's so niche and nice that a lot of. people are commenting and they're asking. me about, "Hey, what are you going to.

write next? What are you going to do. this?" You know. I'm myself like confused. >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you're just figuring. it out as you go along. >> Yeah. I. Like, you're still You're really good at. it. I'm I'm still a terrible writer. I. suck at it. My writing sucks, right? The. only thing which is. good. in my articles and my writing is my. unique observation. I think I'm a great. observer. I. Since childhood, I've been wired in a. way that I look at patterns in societies.

even when people are just walking around. me. And somehow like my brain just makes. puts them in different patterns. So, my only thing is when you read when you. read my stuff, you'll find out that hey, there's a unique insight. That's it. But is it great writing? Hell. no. It's horrible. [laughter]. The structure is bad, sentence forming. is bad, starting is bad, end is bad. You. don't know like this a writer will hate. it and they'll get suffocated. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> But someone who's looking for a unique.

insight, they'll probably like it. >> Yeah. But I think I think that's better. than the alternative. So you you you. could think of like one is the writing. is awful, but the insights are. interesting. Versus you could have. another article that's the the the. writing is literally ornate. It's. beautiful to read, but there are no. insights there. And you're not going to. remember anything it said, right? And so. for me like you know, I started out my. writing was kind of rough initially. Um but it was the insights. And that's. what I read for is like you know, I I. appreciate good writing, but it's more. about like are you sharing something. that I find useful or interesting or.

entertaining or that makes me think. >> Okay, there was one interesting thing. that you talked about in the beginning. and we didn't cover that. What is young male syndrome? >> Ah, young male syndrome. The young male syndrome is an idea that. was coined by some social scientists, Margo Wilson and Martin Daly. And what. these researchers did, they looked. both within North America and around the. world cross-culturally, historically,

and there's been a lot of work done. since this time. This was in the 1980s. Who are the people who are the most. risk-taking? The people who are the most. prone to crime, violence, addiction, and doesn't necessarily have to be. criminality, but it could be involvement. in extreme sports or doing things that. could be. uh. harmful. And in every society without. fail, it's always the same group,

uh young men roughly in their late teens. to early 20s. Uh and you know, with regard to crime, the criminologist. they have this term the age-crime curve, which they find that criminality tends. to peak. in young adulthood. Around 19 or 20. years old is when a man is the most. likely to commit a crime. Um. If you com- if you compare. um the likelihood of being arrested for. a violent crime, a 20-year-old man and a.

60-year-old man, uh even when you control for. socioeconomic status, the 20-year-old is about 10 times more. likely to be arrested for a violent. crime than a 60-year-old man. And again, you're controlling for income and and. everything else. >> So, what is the reason behind the young. male syndrome? Why do we see this. pattern repeatedly? Um. The evolutionary explanation for this is. that young men um take risks.

because it's required to stand out. Um you know, there's always been some. degree of. what's sometimes referred to as. intersexual competition um among men. You want to stand out. You want to show. that you have. um the ability to survive catastrophe. and risk because that's how you. demonstrate that you have good genes, that you have good attributes, that you. will. um be a good provider and a good. protector. Um. And in contrast, uh women uh they have a.

different set of incentives. Perhaps in. the distant ancestral past, there were. thrill-seeking, risk-taking women who. enjoyed violence and the kinds of things. that you see with the young male. syndrome. Those women are not our. ancestors because they didn't survive. long enough to reproduce. You know, if. you think of a 20-year-old woman who. loves putting herself in dangerous. situations, she's not going to live long. enough to have kids and certainly not. going to live long enough to raise them. into adulthood. Whereas for men, um. the incentive was different where you.

had to stand out somehow to advertise. good qualities and one way to do this. was through taking risks in hunting or. in warfare or in. exploring previously. un-navigated territory to find a source. for water or source for medicine. And if. you do this, there's you know, a. non-zero chance you'll die or get ill or. injured or something along the way, but. if you're successful at it, the. community rewards you with status with.

prestige, you know, the young attractive. women in your little hunter-gatherer. community will look at them and maybe. that's the guy I should get with. And so. we are the descendants of the young men. who were willing to take risks and put. themselves in dangerous situations. This tendency can activate. can sort of wax and wane depending on. the context as well. There was really. amusing study from a few years ago where. these researchers went to a skate park, you know, young guys on their. skateboards doing cool tricks on the. half-pipes and whatever.

And. on one day they sent a male research. assistant to the skate park. He's a. young guy and you know, he's talking to. the skaters. Like, "Yeah, I'm just here, you know, like I want to see you guys do. some cool tricks. I'm just interested in. the culture of skateboarding and what. you guys are up to. And uh. and then he kind of observed what kind. of stunts they were doing, how many. injuries he saw that day, you know, how risky these guys were, how. how how how risky the activities these. guys were doing engaged in. And then a different day they sent a.

young female research assistant to. this skate park and then the same kind. of thing. Just interested in what you guys are up. to and the skaters took far more risks. when they were observed by a young woman. than the young man. And why would this be the case that this. kind of young male syndrome, this. willingness to take on. potentially dangerous risk in front of. the young woman versus the young man? well, the young woman you want to. advertise the qualities. I did this.

crazy insane stunt and I stuck the. landing and you know, I I can show you. I'm athletic, I'm coordinated, I'm cool, like you know, I do this trick all the. all the boys are clapping for me, everyone loves me. Um. and so that is that is the the reasoning. here because. evolutionarily you have these kind of. two. um motives that are sometimes in. tension. One is survival and one is. reproduction and if you want to. reproduce you have to survive long. enough. So you're you're sort of.

balancing these two things. Um. but. evolution cares more cares in quotes, you know, evolution is this abstract. thing, but it cares more about. reproduction than it does about. survival. If there is a trait that. enhances your reproductive potential, but it damages your survival, um that. trait will still be favored versus the. reverse where if there's a trait that is. maximally focused on survival, but cares.

nothing about reproduction, that will. die in the gene pool, right? Like that. will not be passed on. So you know, you. go to one group of guys and they all. they care about is maximizing lifespan. I don't care about girls, I don't care. about impressing anyone. I just want to. live as long as possible. They're not. going to have children and the genes. associated with those attributes will. die off. This other group, they're like, you know, I'm going to take risks, I'm. going to do things and maybe it's. harmful to me, maybe not, but um you. know, this this attracts uh the opposite. sex and they have kids and that will. endure. But again, um you see this sex.

difference in risk taking because women. they evolved to be more cautious because. you know, they have to survive long. enough to have the baby, to rear them. into adulthood and so women in general. are far more cautious, far less willing. What's interesting though is that when. you look just at women, you still see. that same pattern. So young women are far less inclined to. take risk than young men, but when you. compare young women with old women, young women are still more risk-taking, um more likely to put themselves in.

dangerous situations, more likely to. commit crimes, shoplifting, getting into. fights, those kinds of things. It's just. that the magnitude is smaller than with. with men. Um and so, this is the idea. here. Um sometimes that risk-taking and. impulsivity can be. damaging and destructive in the form of. crime, political violence, uh even just. interpersonal violence, getting into. fights. Um testosterone peaks during. those years, too. Um but it can also be channeled into.

productive directions, too. Um you know, through sports, through career. competition, through. um. you know, other forms [clears throat] of. exhibiting your uh competitive spirit, and so on. Um. but the young male syndrome, I think, is. you know, it it it's funny to me because. we. we seem like remarkably uncurious about. why this is the case that young men um. they have this. constellation of traits that leads them.

to be risk-taking. Um we see this borne. out in the data around criminality, in. um death rates, and so on. A young man. is far more likely to be killed than a. young woman, mostly by other men. So, around the world, um roughly 90%. of people who commit murder are men, mostly young men. But the victims of. murder, of homicide, are 70% of them are. men. So, you have 90% of the killers are.

men, 70% of the victims. >> Men are killing men. >> Yes, primarily men are killing other. men. Interestingly, you see the same. pattern with chimpanzees, where about. 92% of chimpanzee killers are male, and. about 70% of their victims are other. males. So, most of the murder that goes. on in the world, it's among men and more. concentrated among young men. And even. more interestingly, as we're talking. about status here, the killer tends to be slightly younger. than the target. So, you often see the.

the murderer is in his early 20s and the. victim is typically in his late 20s or. early 30s. And what I think might be. going on there is that you have a young. upstart who's maybe angry or envious of. the man who is slightly ahead of him in. the hierarchy and that position seems. attainable. So, you take that person. out. Um. And so So, yeah, we we we seem I'm. curious about this, but then, you know, this this can be channeled in in.

positive and negative directions. The The issue here, cuz sometimes I'll. bring this up with people, the young. male syndrome, and they will um reply to. me, you know, okay, but then, you know, we're looking at what's happening with. young men now and a lot of them seem to. be inert, unambitious, uninterested. Um. You know, a lot of young guys, they're. lazy, they're unemployment rates are. increasing, they're dropping out of. education. What's going on with young. men? And. though I think a lot of this is can be.

put down to uh you know, phones and technology. Um. video games do a superb job of capturing. that male desire for achievement. Um and. then, you think, well, what what is the. reason why men are so interested in. competition and and and uh risk-taking. and so on? Well, it's usually impress. girls so that they like you. But if that desire is satisfied again. through screens, through digital. pornography and OnlyFans and what have.

you, um. then, you know, you you're removing one. of the motives for putting yourself out. there and engaging in these tasks. So, you have. the adventurous spirit satisfied by the. games, the sexual desires satisfied by. porn, and then you know, you can find. ways to sedate men, and they're no. longer interested in. which which is positive and negative. On. the one hand, we see crime rates. declining and that kind of thing. Um you. know, on a historical scale. um but on the other hand, we may be.

losing a lot of talent and a lot of. energy. from these young guys to the screens, too. So, we're losing something. bad in the form of crime, but we're. losing something good as well in the. form of all the companies that aren't. being built or all of the. ideas and innovations and so on because. a lot of guys are just sort of absorbed. I I know guys who, you know, they. they refuse to. buy video game consoles because they. know they'll get addicted. They don't. download any of the betting apps. They. don't do all of this stuff because they.

know it's so enticing. >> It's going to mess mess it up for them. Interesting. So, young male syndrome is. young men doing dumb things to impress. women. >> [laughter]. >> Uh. >> [gasps]. >> if we if we wanted to boil it down, it's. kind of reductive. It's not I mean, it's. not entirely wrong. I mean, it's. it's yeah, young. >> extent, this is right. >> Yeah. No, no, no, it it is. Um even if. they don't necessarily know That's the. thing though. The The interesting thing. about the young male syndrome is.

>> it intuitively without even having a. conscious thought or understanding about. why they're doing things. >> With with the inadvertent or or. unconscious desire to impress women. because you What's interesting is you. still see the young male syndrome. exhibited even in places where no women. are present. So, um very few places are. more preoccupied with establishing. hierarchy than militaries and prisons. Um and in prison, there are no women. Military, sometimes there are women, sometimes not, but these are very. male-dominated.

institutions. And still, men are preoccupied with um, you know, not sliding down on the totem. pole. >> Feeling high status. >> Yeah, and and you know, getting getting. into fights and getting into these. conflicts to show that uh, you know, they're they're tough. >> Interesting. Okay, here's this question. The last two questions that I ask. everyone. Okay, first is. what is one advice nobody should follow? >> [laughter]. >> Oh, man. That nobody should follow. Is. there um,

I'm thinking there's there I mean there. sure there's there's universally bad. advice um, that that's uh, that's common. A piece of advice that nobody should. follow. Hmm. >> [sighs]. >> It's uh, it's hard like. the blanket thing of like nobody should. do this. Um, what would I say to something like this? I I maybe I'm taking your question too. literally, but I'm trying to be as.

honest as as I possibly can. Um, that. nobody should follow. Uh, well, I could. say like there's there's advice that I. would say um, on this point of advice, what I'm. thinking about here Raj is um, that you should not give unsolicited. advice to people. And and what the reason I'm saying this.

um, and it's so it's it's different in in in. this kind of context. If you're um, you know, if you're doing something that. people actively seek out. You're a. podcaster, you're a writer, you're a. public figure and people have the choice. to tune in or turn out tune out. They. can close the screen, they can you know, whatever. They can ignore you. But I'm. thinking more in terms of like everyday. life. Um, you know, there is this advice like oh, you should like if you've done something. interesting or successful or um, helpful, you the advice here is like you.

should share that information with the. people around you. Um. in this case I would say be very careful. with that that you shouldn't necessarily. follow this advice about advice. Generally I would say don't give. unsolicited advice because most of the. time it just makes people dislike you. If they come to you for advice and they. say, "Hey Raj, hey Rob, hey whoever like. I'm trying to figure out this with my. career, this with my relationship. Can I. get your thoughts on this cuz I don't. know what I'm doing?" Then it's like, yeah, do the best you possibly can to.

help them. But if someone is. um. not talking about those things or even. if they are but they haven't explicitly. asked you what you would do or for your. advice, don't give it to them. Very few people enjoy um. unsolicited advice. If I say like, "Oh. yeah, my girlfriend's giving me all. these problems and then the the the and. then you say like, "You know what you. got to do Rob with your girlfriend? This. is a. I probably will not respond well to. this. Most people don't respond well to. this. So be careful with unsolicited. advice.

>> So. what cost have you personally paid to go. from being poor. to the elite institutions of the world. and upgrade your social status? >> Oh, um. the cost I have paid. Well, I lived in 10 different homes in. total when I was a kid and then I. enlisted uh in the military and moved.

around a lot. So. I. was. I was able to adapt very quickly. Uh it. was a skill. I can adapt but the cost is. that I've never really felt at home. anywhere. Um frequently relocating. even if I feel welcome. uh in a. group or among people, among friends, some part of me is is ready to leave. Uh I.

there's always that lingering feeling of. impermanence. Um. >> You still carry that? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> You don't feel home anywhere? >> No. No. No, I I always feel like I'm. just kind of staying and hanging out. until the next thing. Uh where am where. am I moving to next? Where am I going to. next? Um. and it yeah, it never really feels like. it's going to last. Um. And and this is something. uh you know, I I wrote about this in my. first book about uh.

you know, yes, I have achieved all of. these conventional badges of success. Um. but you know, I think about the way that. I grew up and. I don't know it like. if the trade-off was worth it. Some. people who've been through very. difficult circumstances will say, "I'm. glad I went through this because it made. me who I am today.". I actually disagree with that. Um I. think I would trade much or all of this. to have not experienced so much of that. impermanence and dysfunction and. disrepair.

um that I wrote about in Troubled. So, it which is not the same thing as. saying I'm ungrateful or that I'm not. glad I have these things. They're better. than not, but um I don't think that the. the trade-off uh was worth it. Yeah. >> Interesting. Thank you so much. Thank. you for doing this. It was pleasure. having you. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Thank you. >> Thank you for watching this episode till. the end. We would love to know what you. liked or disliked about this episode and. which guest you would like to see on the. show. Let us know in the comments. Your.

feedback help us improve and make every. episode a little better. I'll see you. next time. Until then, keep figuring. out.