The Next $1 Trillion Energy Boom: Solar, Wind, & Green Hydrogen | Sumant Sinha | FO568 Raj Shamani

The next trillionaire will be someone. from the energy transition space. Whoever figures it out. Do you agree? >> It's a massive opportunity for sure. If. somebody develops a brand new energy. source which is cheap which can be. deployed at scale that person will. certainly become a trillionaire. >> Do you think the biggest problem in the. AI world? It's not going to be chips. It's not going to be all of that. It's. going to be electricity. >> It is because ultimately electricity and. more broadly energy drive everything. around us. Sumant SA, founder, chairman and CEO of.

Renew. If you want to understand why the. next superpower could be the country. that leads the renewable energy. revolution, where the biggest. opportunities in renewable energy are. and how real this future really is, this. episode is for you. And a country is not. able to produce cheap electricity. What. happens to them in next 20 years? >> Countries that continue to be energy. dependent are always going to be at a. slightly inferior position. So it's. incredibly important for India as a. country to get to that point of having. full control over our energy supply.

chain cuz everything else depends on. that AI data centers your ability to. export energy. >> Tell me what did China figure out 20 25. years ago to make this kind of. infrastructure this kind of ecosystem. and countries like India, America failed. to understand this. >> I would say that the Chinese were just. very precient, very foresighted about. the whole thing. The US really has a lot. of fossil fuels and today it's the. largest fossil fuel exporting country in. the world which is you know an eye. openener for most people who think that.

maybe it's Saudi Arabia or Iran and that. is why the US has taken a very strong. turn towards doubling down on fossil. fuels where they're saying that all this. renewable energy is hogwash. I don't. really care for it. I don't even care. about climate change. So I would say the. US is actually quite comfortable with. fossil fuels. Economically it'll benefit. from fossil fuel prices going up. Let's say if you were to advise the. prime minister of India to make India. the global leader in energy, what would. be three things that you would ask him.

to do? >> So I would say number one, focus on. developing the supply chain including. all the manufacturing of solar batteries. etc. Protect it from Chinese imports. Number two, move the user industry as. rapidly to either green fuels or towards. electric solutions. Give more subsidies. to for people to shift to electric cars. The third thing I would do is I'd really. really put a lot of effort behind. building the grid much much much faster. >> Someone watching this is an entrepreneur. in 20s wants to start a business in. India in the energy space. What is an.

exact problem or an exact business which. you think can help them make large. amounts of money. I have a small favor to ask you. I need. you to subscribe to our channel. The. more subscribers we have, the better and. bigger guests we can bring and provide. you more value through these. conversations. And the full audio. experience of this show is also. available on Spotify where you can. follow us and listen to the new episodes.

as well. This episode is a part of the. Mobius Foundation sustainability. dialogue series. To know more about. Mobius Foundation and its initiatives, check the link in the description below. Would. you say this is something which is on my. mind since a since a long time because. I've been hearing a lot of conversations. around it. Would you say that the the. most powerful country of the future will. not be someone with most amount of oil.

will be someone with the cheapest and. the most abundant energy. >> Yeah, I would certainly say that. Uh but. in a lot of countries oil is energy and. so therefore uh the two are synonymous. Yeah. So so let me give you a little bit. of background. Okay. We tend to use. electricity and energy synonymously or. sort of interchangeably. >> Yeah. >> But the reality is that energy is. broader than electricity. Okay. Energy.

is used for heating. It's used for. cooling. It's used for uh making. different chemicals and so on. It's used. for making cement. It's used for making. steel. There lots of industrial. processes that it is used for. Uh it is. used for home heating and cooling. Right? So uh it's used for. transportation whether it's cars or. airplanes or ships etc. U electricity. which we use to power our lights and uh. our homes and so on is just a small.

component of energy. So electricity. actually accounts for only 20% of all. energy consumption. Okay. >> Okay. Energy consumption itself. generates carbon emissions which account. for almost 75 to 80% of all carbon. emissions globally. And I'll talk about. why carbon emissions is important. because it obviously leads to climate. change. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> So now what is happening is that when. you look at um uh you know how did how.

did oil become or fossil fuels become a. bad thing? They became a bad thing. because while our entire economic system. and our livelihoods are based on fossil. fuels because you know about our in the. early 20th century cars were electric in. nature. Then they got replaced by. internal combustion engine cars and our. entire system then moved towards uh a. fossil fuel based economy. Okay, which.

was fine because nobody cared about. carbon emissions. But starting in the. late 1990s, early 2000s, it, you know, that realization dawned that the more. carbon that we're emitting into the. atmosphere, the more we're converting. the atmosphere into a giant greenhouse. And what happens inside a greenhouse? The sun's rays come in and the inside of. the greenhouse gets warmed up. That's. what's happening to the world right now. because the carbon in the atmosphere. converts the atmosphere into a.

greenhouse kind of a system more than it. should. >> and so therefore it's leading to higher. temperatures. >> Now when you have higher temperatures. in the world as a whole. >> then you know we have these polar ice. caps in the Arctic and the Antarctic. >> Yeah. >> Right. There's a lot of water that is. made into ice that is sitting there. The. moment temperatures start going up that. ice starts melting. >> Y. >> and it leads to the rise in ocean. levels. Now can you imagine if in Mumbai.

which is where we are sitting right now. if sea level suddenly went up by 1 meter. or thereabouts it would actually be very. disastrous for a lot of the colonies or. people living on the coastal areas and. so on. >> Um secondly it begins to change weather. patterns. M. >> what happens if there was a disruption. because of this higher temperature on. the monsoons it would impact India. India's entire agricultural production. if there's also higher temperature it. would start melting the glaciers faster.

than expected which might lead to sudden. flash floods at higher frequency than. you know than expected. >> It's already happening. >> It's already happening. And then. eventually when all the glaciers run dry. then what happens to our perennial. rivers the mighty Ganga and Yamuna and. all those rivers that are part of. India's history and tradition. and religion and you know that feed into. the indogantic plane. So the costs of. this change. >> are not very well understood and can be.

absolutely disastrous. >> especially for a country like India. >> which has such a vast number of people. >> Now the world as a whole recognized this. and said you know what we got to do. something about this problem because if. this continues unchecked. >> then it can be really really bad for the. world as a whole. Yeah. >> Plus it'll lead to immigration of. migration of people, wars, you know, could get fought. So all sorts of. consequential changes that we can't even. imagine right now.

>> And you know there's this UN uh United. Nations group that essentially said that. if temperatures change by more than 1.5°. centigrade is going to lead to. irreversible changes in the world. Mhm. >> And therefore we must all battle. together and keep temperature change. below 1 and a2° centigrade. And so. various you know agreements were arrived. at between all the world's countries to. mitigate carbon emissions. >> Now.

so question was how to do it? How do you. mitigate carbon emissions? Because if. the whole world's economies are based on. carbon emissions because of fossil fuel. usage then how do you suddenly say you. know what no more carbon emissions. You. can't suddenly shut off lights. You. can't suddenly shut off making steel and. cement and all of these things either, right? You can't suddenly shut off your. thermal plants which run on coal. Then. what will happen to electricity? >> So you can't just do that. So the. question was how do we now do this. migration from fossil fuel-based uh.

energy systems to what? So that is. really where the whole issue of. renewable energy started becoming an. answer to this problem. And so back in 2007 and 8 when I took. the decision to join Suslon, some of. this was beginning to start percolating. into people's minds. Yeah. >> And that's the reason I took the. decision to get into this sector because. I realized that this is going to become. a massive problem in the future. >> And so therefore devoting one's career. in life to solving this problem or. helping solve the problem because no.

individual can solve it byas I thought. was a very worthwhile endeavor for me. for the rest of my life. I was 45 at the. time. And secondly, I also felt that in. doing this, there would also be business. opportunities. Fair. >> because you can't solve anything without. it being good for from a business. standpoint because the amount of capital. you need to change an economic system. that has developed over centuries, right, requires enormous amounts of. capital, right? >> So anyway, so that is what my thinking. was and that is what we now need to do.

So the question is how does renewable. energy come in? Renewable energy comes. in uh through wind and solar. Um but. it's electricity. >> Okay. >> So it begins to address the 20% of. energy that is electricity. And today after 15 years of my having. been in this sector, we are now at a. point where renewable energy accounts. for approximately about 15 to 16% of. electricity.

only. >> Not the energy. not energy as a whole. >> Okay. >> So on one level you can see the scale of. the challenge at another level you can. see the scale of the opportunity. >> because eventually everything has to. change. >> Yeah. >> Now one interesting thing happened along. this last 15 years journey of mine. >> In the beginning wind and solar were. more expensive than coal based power. generation. >> And so the question was who's going to. pay for the extra cost?

India said why on earth should we pay. for it? We didn't cause the carbon. emissions to happen into the atmosphere. If the western world did it, let them. pay for it. Right? Which made eminent. sense and as an Indian, I thoroughly. agree with that logic. But somewhere in when when Prime. Minister Modi came in, he took a. different view which is very interesting. actually. And you know where he derived. this view from, I guess it goes back to. a gut understanding or a gut intuition. or call it what you will. >> but he said you know what or he may have.

understood this at that time. >> that look this is actually something. that has to happen. M. >> and if it if it is something that has to. happen, why should India not take a lead. in this area? >> Fair. >> And so he pushed wind and solar very. hard. He set very big targets for wind. and solar in India. And that got the. whole government to start really pushing. hard on doing more and more wind and. solar. >> And that's how we've got to this point. that we've got to which is actually. compared to all the other countries in.

the world, not a bad position for us to. have got to. >> 15% is not bad. is not bad. But in also. in doing that because the scale. increased and because of a variety of. other factors, wind and solar suddenly. became cheaper than coal based power. And so affordability suddenly became a. big driver of this energy transition as. well. >> True. >> And so now suddenly it makes more sense. to add wind and solar than it makes. sense to add coal based power because. it's cheaper. >> So it's no longer even about carbon. emissions. It's become much broader than.

that and it's become much more about. what is cheaper and what is better for. us as a country and what is better for. us as an economy. So that's that's where. we are right now. >> But right now the amount of energy that. we use or the amount of electricity we. use let's just pick up 15% 20% of the. energy and then the 15% of it right. So. the amount of electricity that we use. it's going to go up significantly with. the rise of AI technology all of this. right do you think the pro the biggest.

problem in the technology world the. future in the AI world it's not going to. be chips it's not going to be all of. that it's going to be electricity. >> it is it is because ultimately. electricity and more broadly energy. drive everything around us. >> so we don't have enough electricity to. make all of us intelligent. >> no that That's true. But I I think that. electricity in India is growing at about. 6 to 7% a year. >> Uh energy is growing a little bit less. than that at about 4%.

>> But we are adding a lot of new capacity. fairly rapidly as a country and the good. thing is most of that is clean energy. >> which is wind and solar. >> How much electricity do we need in India. or compare it with India, America, China, what are the electricity needs? You must be having some ballpark number. watts or. >> no no I I can give you the exact. numbers. Um so today India has a total. power generating uh capacity of about. 550 gawatt okay.

>> or 550,000 megawatt. >> This is the third largest in the world. >> in a year. >> In a in a that is a total power. generating capacity. >> capacity in a year. >> Ah so this this generates approximately. 1.8 8 trillion kilowatt hours of. electricity every year. That is how much. India consumes. >> Okay. So there's capacity then that. capacity is used to generate this much. electricity which is consumed by. Indians. That 1.8 8 trillion units is.

growing at about 6% every year. Which. means we need about 120 billion units. more of new energy every year. >> which in renewable energy terms is equal. to between 60 and 70 gawatt of new. renewable energy capacity. >> Okay. >> Last year India added about 50 gawatt of. new renewable energy capacity. So we're. almost there. >> Okay. >> Okay. It's at a point where all. electricity consumption increase can. come from renewable energy in the next. few years time. >> And this of this 550 gawatt today uh.

wind and solar account for about 220. gawatt and if I add hydro and nuclear it. amounts to 300 gaw. >> 250 of the balance is is coal based. power. >> Okay. >> Now coal is coal based power is not. really growing now. Nobody wants to add. more coal based capacity because nobody. everybody knows that over time coal will. get phased out. >> and as people say say the stone age did. not come to an end because of lack of. stones it came because new technology.

showed up. >> similarly the the coal age in India is. not going to end because we don't have. any coal any longer but because. something else has overtaken that which. is cleaner cheaper easier to install etc. etc so that's the direction that we are. going to go in now as we do all of this. Um, and as we add this 1, you know, 1.8. trillion at 120 billion units and this. 60 70 gawatt, this 550 gaw. by 2035 is going to double,

>> okay, >> to about 1,100. gawatt in India. >> And of that 1,100, >> the capacity or the consumption? >> The capacity. >> Okay. >> The consumption at 6% will double in. about 12 years. M. >> so in about by 2035 we should assume. that the 1.8 will become 3.6 and that. includes electric vehicles it includes. AI data centers and it in includes more. industrial activity it includes. everything. >> because also keep in mind. >> that energy that that appliances that.

use electricity are also becoming more. efficient. >> Cars are becoming more efficient. Right. Light bulbs have become more efficient. So there is efficiency improvement. happening at the rate of about 1 and a. half to 2% every year as well. Okay. So. this electricity growth if there was not. efficiency improvement would have. actually been 8% a year. >> which really is quite a large amount. right it's by far the largest of any. large economy in the world. >> so by 2035 electricity demand will grow. to double.

>> the power cap generating capacity will. double and of this 1,100. renewables will account for almost 750. gaw. >> okay. >> up from the 300 right now so there'll be. another 450 gaw of capacity added in the. next 8 9 years. So it's growing at about. 50 to 60 gawatt a year is what we will. need to keep growing. >> which is by the way the second fastest. in the world after China. >> M. >> it's actually last year we also crossed. the US. >> So India is actually growing pretty fast. in this whole area.

>> Okay. >> Okay. Now uh just to give you. comparative numbers uh the US's power. generating capacity today is 1,100. gawatt. So it's almost double that of. India's. But China is almost I don't. even know what the latest number is but. it's probably 2 and a half thousand. gawatt. So it's almost five times. India's capacity. >> It's bigger than US as well. >> Much bigger. Much bigger. >> Why? Because the country needs more. because it. >> because they're a much bigger. manufacturing. uh powerhouse now. So all of that.

requires a lot of energy. So the rest of. the world has outsourced a lot of their. production to China and therefore also a. lot of their carbon emissions to China. So you know the funny thing is China. added almost uh 60% of the entire. world's capacity addition of renewables. last year 60%. >> Wow. >> So they did more than the rest of the. world put together. >> So what is happening there is insane. right? >> So be that as it may India is doing a. pretty good job as well. We are still. you know we all said and done we number. two. We're distant number two but we are.

number two. Okay. So we should be happy. with that. >> Do you think we could run out of power? or electricity? >> No, not at all. You know, an interesting. stat I heard the other day was that the. world gets every minute from the sun. 8,000 times the amount of power that it. consumes in that minute, 8,000 times. So even if solar increases by. 100 times, right, and meets all of the.

energy needs, not electricity only, but. all of the energy needs of the world, if. solar increases by 100 times, we'll. still be getting more solar power by. almost a factor of 80 times. Okay? Every single minute. So there's. enough energy that is coming into the. world as a whole from the sun. So the. sun is just an uh infinite amount of of. a source. >> but we don't have enough ways to. actually. store it, use it, distribute it today,

right? Sun is there as a source but do. we have enough infrastructure? >> Good point. It's a very good point. See, we are trying to create an in a system. now which was built for a certain. different historical. power generating mindset or sort of uh. system. What is going to happen is that. over time technology is going to come to. our rescue and it is.

>> solar when it was started about 18 19. years ago was almost 10 times as. expensive as it is right now. It's come. down by a factor of you know 10 times in. terms of the cost. There's a lot of work happening on. technology. Solar costs are going to. keep coming down. >> At the same time there's a lot of work. going on in batteries as well. battery. costs are also going to come down. And. as that happens, the cost of solar plus. storing that solar and using it in the. evenings when the sun is not there or at.

night when the sun is not there, that. cost is coming down and it's almost at a. point now where using solar plus storage. is going to be cheaper than any other. solution. >> Fair. And grids now have to get built. out very rapidly because as electricity. grows, we need that grid to really be. able to take power from wherever it's. getting generated to wherever it's going. to get used. So we need this whole. lattice type of interconnecting grid.

system all across the country and we. don't have that really fully at this. point. So grid buildout is going to be. very critical. >> But that's the tricky part, right? That's where. >> that is a trick that you're absolutely. right. It has. >> that's what the challenge is. It is a. challenge but I think it's a challenge. that is addressable with proper planning. and proper execution the government and. I think everybody realizes that this is. a problem that we need to solve. So. there's a lot of work going on in this. area and I think you know because.

renewables suddenly grew quite rapidly. over the last year or two um and that. leads to grid management issues because. there's a lot of surplus uh energy in. the middle of the day and not enough in. the evening. >> and that problem has hit us but now. we're trying to find solutions and we. will find solutions over the next couple. of years time and uh and a lot of that. side of the solutioning is going to get. ramped up. Um and I I'm pretty confident. that we'll be able to 2 three years. later be able to go both at pace the. generation side as well as the. transmission and distribution side. And.

then another very interesting thing is. going to be happening Raj and that is. that you know people are going to start. putting solar more and more on their. rooftops and using it directly into. their homes. >> and you know uh as solar technology. evolves I will not be surprised if you. get to a point where you'll start having. see-through windows with solar on them. Car roofs will start having solar on. them. You know it'll become ubiquitous. it'll be everywhere and so everybody is.

going to be using power or generating. electricity and using it in a very. different way than we are doing right. now. So there is going to be a big I. think massive shift in our relationship. with electricity that is going to happen. as a result of technology evolution. But. do you think that if technology the way. it is growing right now and the AI. consumption and data centers and all of. the things that are coming in our life. right if it happens faster than our. capacity to build an infrastructure then.

do you think the governments will start. choosing where to provide electricity. should should they give it to citizens. should they give it to industries should. they give it to AI data centers or what. should they do because I don't think I. don't Yeah, I don't think Raj you need. to worry about that. There are people. like us and our company which are going. to make sure that we add capacity at the. rate that is required to meet the. country's requirement. >> Um and I'm pretty I'm almost 100%.

confident that we will not get to this. scenario that you're describing. If. anything, we will have too much power. over a period of time and um. >> we'll have too much power. we'll have. too much power to a point where. um you know we may have to start because. you see the industry is now ramping up. and uh everybody is getting into the. generating space. >> all the large conglomerates of India are. now in the space. >> top 1 to 10 everyone.

>> everybody right then there are people. like us fortunately we're still the. second largest in the country right now. um then there are lots of small guys as. well there are lots of private equity. funded folks folks as well. So now I. would say compared to when I started and. even from 5 years ago, you know, I I. would say the number of players has. really increased dramatically. So the. amount of capital going into it, the. amount of people, the amount of hands, the amount of management bandwidth that. is going into the sector is now at a. much higher level than it was just a few.

years ago. And all of these people are. out there looking for land trying to get. connectivity to the grid to build. projects at sites to get PPAs to find. buyers of their power. So all of that is. happening at a much much higher pace. than it was happening earlier. So I. don't think that shortage of power is. going to be a problem at all. >> So why why is there a UN cry between all. AI founders and they talk about it in US. specifically. >> in the US? Yeah. Because the US, India.

is not the US and the US is not India. The US has certain deficiencies, structural problems that India has. addressed. What are those? Very quickly. is that the US has a grid constraint. >> Um the US has seven different grids in. the US. >> Uh India has a single national grid. >> That's a big difference. We can move. power from any part of India to any. other part of India. >> without any hitchkahhat or problems or. obstructions. >> Interesting. US the US you can't you. can't generate power let's say in the.

windrich state of Texas or the Midwest. anywhere and transfer it to California. or to New York because they don't have a. grid that interconnects all the way. through they have seven as I said seven. different grids. and planning the interconnections. between those is uh is very difficult to. do and it's even harder to build the. lines because some states are democratic. states states, some are Republican. states. So it's a bit messed up uh yeah.

uh to do that. And that's why what's. happening in the US is and see the US. electricity demand was not growing for. many many years. >> So any renewed renewable capacity that. was coming up was replacing uh existing. other capacity that was going out of um. you know that was getting. decommissioned. Now suddenly they're. having to because this AI demand has. suddenly come in. Mhm. >> It's actually leading to to electricity. demand growth of about 2 or 3%. Which.

they were not expecting and therefore. you know there's a sudden ramp up. happening in generating sources which. was not the case earlier. And the second. thing is the grid is just not geared to. transmitting more power. And so a lot of. these data centers that are coming up. are trying to find solutions that are. called behind the meter solutions where. you don't go to the grid at all. You. have your generating station right next. to you, right? Which is why there's a. lot of focus on things like nuclear or. geothermal or gas, which is something.

that you can put next to your data. center or somewhere close by. And. there's less of a reliance on the grid. because you just can't wield the power. or move the power from one part of the. country to another. We don't have that. problem in India. Number two, in our. case, our uh electricity demand is. already growing at five or 6% a year. AI. may add another 1% growth to it which is. not at all difficult for us to meet. >> with as I said is you know so many. people now entering the sector so I. think structurally is very different.

what we now have to do as a country and. this is sort of the next challenge for. us um and I must say that you know we. are standing at multiple inflection. points in our energy transition journey. as a country those really are number one. uh renewable energy needs much faster. grid buildout which you and I talked. about earlier. So that's the first thing. that needs to happen. >> The second thing is that this whole. conversation of energy security has now.

entered our mindset in a much bigger way. that wasn't there earlier as a result of. the Middle Eastern wars and so on that. are happening. Now India realizes that. look we can't just be dependent on uh. importing our energy requirements. whether it is importing oil from the. Middle East or elsewhere. >> or importing clean techch equipment from. China for example because China actually. has a lock on the clean techch supply. chain. >> and to come back to the question that.

you asked earlier will energy systems in. countries be dependent on oil or will. they be dependent on thought really was. your question. I would say that 25 years. ago, China saw this issue and they realized. that they didn't want to be dependent on. the countries that export oil. >> and so they started working on. electrifying their economy as fast as. possible and within that also developing. the supply chain. M. >> so and over time they moved the majority.

of the world's clean tech supply chain. into their own country either in terms. of critical minerals or refining of the. critical minerals or manufacturing of. the um u solar let's say uh polysilicon. or wafers or cells that are required to. make solar panels or batteries or now. electric vehicles. So they've now got a. lock on this whole thing. Now for a. country like India that's not a great. situation right because at least in oil.

you can import oil from 10 different. countries you can't import all your. solar equipment from just one country. that to. >> you know. >> we all know the geopolitical issues. there. >> not so friendly country. >> yeah so therefore that's a real problem. for India so we have to develop a supply. chain in the country that's the second. inflection point and the third. inflection point is that we talked about. the fact that electricity is is a small. part of energy. >> Mhm. >> Right. Only 20%. What do you do about. the balance 80%. You have to address.

those areas as well. And we now have. solutions becoming available that you. can start addressing those areas. But. you also need to address the user. industries like electric cars for. example. How do you address those? So. you need massive changes on the. downstream side of industries that. actually use energy. So a lot of changes. have to happen there. So these three. four inflection points that we are now. sort of at a at we've got to as a. country. So I would say phase one of our. growth of renewable energy is done.

>> We are now entering phase two which. requires a much broader. >> growth in our entire energy system uh. across multiple areas. >> and it also requires very different. governance mindset on the part of our. policy makers. So that's really where we. are. So it's very interesting where we. are at this point and I frankly I. haven't in my 15 years of actually now. if I add Suzan you know 17 18 years of. journey or time in this sector I have.

not seen us stand on the brink of so. much change. uh as I'm seeing that we are at right. now. >> and it's an interesting imagine like an. emerging market. >> and a country is not able to produce. cheap electricity what happens to them. in next 20 years. >> very tough I think we going to see a. shakeout happening in the world. Um, countries that continue to be energy. dependent and countries that somehow. find a way of becoming energy.

independent and those that are energy. dependent are always going to be at a. slightly inferior position. So, it's. incredibly important for India as a. country to get to that point of having. full control over our energy supply. chain. I think it's going to be one of. the most important things that we as a. country have to achieve over the next. several years. You know, because. everything else depends on that your AI. data centers, your ability to export. energy in the form of green hydrogen or. green ammonia.

um ability to also expand comput I mean. export compute capacity. Your ability to. export any product is based on cheap. electricity. >> True. >> Right. So many products are so we have. to get to that point. We can't always be. dependent on the rest of the world. And. for the longest time, it has been the. aches heel of India's economy that we've. had to import 150 to 200 billion worth. of fossil fuels every year. And every. time oil prices go up, the rupee goes. down, inflation goes up. I mean, it's. it's just not a very highly energy.

dependent. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a good. situation. So we have to find a way of. escaping from that um from that um. situation which I think this government. is doing their best uh on finding. solutions and that's why we made the. progress that we already have. >> but are we close will we be able forget. actually will we be able to do it or not. we will be right what's the biggest. challenge that you see today what is. stopping us to reach a point where we. are fully independent.

or probably slightly more independent. the way China is today. >> You know, let's let's talk about China. for a second, okay? And I can't claim. that I know their story that well, but. I've seen them as an outside observer in. the space. I think about 25 years ago, maybe perhaps even longer, they realized. that they have this dependence and they. wanted to get away from that, right? So, what do they do? Um you know on the oil. side for example they built a massive. strategic uh buffer.

>> which uh you know they're drawing down. right now which is helping them which is. actually helping stabilize global oil. prices also which is very good. >> But I think beyond that what they've. also done is. >> they've really as I said built this. clean techch industry and really been. able to indigenize it and you know over. time what they see what happened is. technology in the beginning was. developed in the western world. Mhm. >> Uh they tried to use or they decided to. use China as a manufacturing location. for the end product.

>> China said fine please welcome come in. we'll give you some subsidy we'll give. you you know ways to set up your. business whatever whatever right. >> So the all these western countries you. know in their naivity a little bit I. would say you know thought oh wow this. is great. So they all went and made big. investments there. I think what happened is that there was. a technology transfer that happened. willingly or unwillingly. >> Um and then over time I think what China. was able to do was not just set up the.

uh the downstream side of the business. but they also started looking at uh. manufacturing the capital equipment. which is used to make that downstream. equipment. For example, you know, take. the case of a solar panel. >> or a solar cell, right? Now, to make the. solar cell, so you can either buy the. solar cell from China, >> right? But you have to get equipment. that is used to make the solar cell. Now, who makes that equipment? >> China. >> Now, China. But in the beginning, it was. the developed countries. >> So over time, China took that industry.

also and indigenized that. Then the. question was who upgrades these this. equipment this capital equipment and who. figures out what is the next generation. of it that was happening all that. research was being done in the western. world that also has now moved to China. >> So you see there are three four. different layers of it. >> First thing is you start manufacturing. the end product. Then you start making. the equipment to make the end product. Then you start make doing the research. to make the equipment to make the end. product. >> Okay. There's a lot of work that you.

have to do. >> and then you econom economically. colonize countries which actually give. you raw materials. >> Exactly. That's the next step and. exactly and then then you realize that. you know if I need if I'm making. batteries for example and I need lithium. to make the batteries where is the. lithium found or where's the cobalt. found if it's found in the Congo then. let me go and start investing in the. Congo in Congo right make them part of. my bricks of my belt and road initiative. right give them money to start. extracting and then don't build a.

refining plant there build the refining. plant at home. >> so that all that comes here and then. slowly slowly because of all the. subsidies that I give and because of. manufacturing capability that I have. I'll start making sure that all of my. industries are so low cost that whatever. little capacity that existed in the rest. of the world goes out of business okay. so anything that existed in the western. world in terms of refining capacities or. elsewhere is gone. >> out.

>> so even now if I as a country let's say. as India decides to go into some of. these places to get that that that. mineral capacity. We don't have the. refining capacity. >> So we have to get the minerals, build. the refining capacity and then build the. research R&D base, then build the. capital equipment manufacturing setup. and then start building the downstream. uh set you know equipment. We are. starting right now only from the. downstream side. M. >> and to to again give you an example.

today in solar the solar pan to make a. solar panel there's a fourpart value. chain you start from polysilicon where. you take quartz which is fortunately. found abundantly in India. >> convert that into polysilicon which is. like a a material from that polyil which. is like a hard material from that you. then make wafers which is just the the. blank slate kind of a small thing that. you see inside a panel. Then from that wafer you make the cell.

which has a lot of these striations to. capture the sunlight better. A lot of. ridges and so on. Lot of chemical. layering on that surface. And then you. put in place the wiring that sort of. takes the energy out. >> And that is still a small small sort of. square. And then you go into the last. part which is making the module where. you essentially take a number of these. cells, arrange them on a panel and then. put a glass cover on it, put an aluminum. frame around it, put some wires and that.

becomes a solar panel. Okay, that's how. the whole thing is made in India today. Uh we started with making panels in. India. We opened up the whole sector. I. mean not opened up anybody could make it. but we stopped imports of the equipment. from China. So that allowed domestic. manufacturing to get into modules. Now. we're doing the same thing for cells. So. we're working backwards from the. absolute end of the supply chain, right? Of the end product. And we're working. backwards, >> right? But it's not just a question of.

then making wafers and ingots and then. making polysilicon, but also the. equipment to make all of these things, then the R&D to support all of that and. then the raw material that perhaps goes. into all of this. So there's an enormous. amount of work that we have to do. ecosystem. Yeah, and you know this is. just one product in the clean tech. supply chain. Admittedly, perhaps the. most important one, but only one. product. We need to replicate this. across industries, batteries, automobiles, you know, so many other. areas. So, it's an enormous enormous.

task that we face as a country and we. need to get cracking on it frankly. But. tell me what did China figure out 20 25. years ago to make this kind of. infrastructure this kind of ecosystem. and countries like India, America or in. countries in Europe we all failed to. understand this. you know I don't want to be too critical. of anybody here I would say that the. Chinese were just very precient very.

foresighted about the whole thing uh and. full marks of them for that. >> but there has to is something they must. have figured out which we failed to. understand. >> You know I I think look in 20 25 years. ago we weren't even thinking about clean. energy. Uh it wasn't anywhere in our. mindset. We weren't even thinking of. these materials and minerals and you. know solar and wind. It was nowhere. I. mean as I told you in 2008 when I got. into Slon at that time you know Suzan.

was so far ahead of its time in making. wind turbines. Um solar modules or solar. was just starting at that time. >> but these guys figured it out 10 years. ahead of all of that and you know came. up with this whole game plan and then. they implemented it. Why did other. countries not do it? I I think it's you. know it's a good question. I mean I. don't have a clear answer to it. I think. that as Indians we tend to be very. inwardlooking. Uh you know we're such a. giant country. We are so argumentative.

We are so focused on what's happening. within our borders that I think perhaps. we often don't see what's happening in. the world outside of us and how to best. deal with the world outside of us and. how to take some of these kinds of. decisions in a manner which is uh. foresighted beyond what other countries. are thinking. I think we're doing some. of that now uh under the current. government and I give them full credit. for that to try to address some of these. areas now. But yeah, we should have done.

it 15 years earlier than that. But you. know, time gone is time gone. Other. countries, I think, look, you know, taking a step back today, there are two. kinds of countries in this world. >> There's one set of countries that have. fossil fuels, one set of countries that. don't have. >> If you divide those two two types of. countries by population, there's only. 11% of the world's population sitting in. countries that have more fossil fuels. than others. And there's 89% of the. world's population sitting in the bucket.

that don't have access to fossil fuels. that they have to import it. It includes. China and India. It includes Europe. It. includes the Far East. It includes a lot. of Africa. >> Right? So many countries around the. world don't have fossil fuels. Now, um. the countries that do have fossil fuels. are happy to export it and continue to. uh persist with an economic system that. is based on fossil fuels because it's in. their interest. >> uh to have a market for their product. Um but now I think these other countries.

are realizing that this dependence is. now very dangerous because of all the. uncertainties in the world as a whole. where energy supply chains are getting. weaponized. Um and so therefore these. other countries are realizing that they. got to do something about it. India. fortunately has made progress and we. have the tools at our disposal in the. context of a largesized economy uh an. energy market that is already pretty. large and growing substantially. We have.

therefore the economies of scale. We. have I would say relatively enlightened. leadership which understands some of. these issues. We've already made a lot. of good progress over the last you know. 12 years in some of these areas. And so. we have a lot of elements um at our you. know within the country right now which. gives us a good platform to be at least. the second country that starts making. the transition from being an energy. fossil fuel importer to becoming an. electro state. Okay, that's the journey.

that we have to do very very fast now. >> because there is you know when China did. it there wasn't really a gun to their. head. Yeah. Now there is a gun to every. country's head. So we just have to move. very fast but as I said we have some of. the ingredients that allow us to make. that transition quickly. >> So I have two questions on this. Okay. Probably India was always focusing on. our problem. We were inward-looking. country. We are still inwardlooking. We're focusing on our problem there. What was the problem of like let's say.

Europe and America? Why were they unable. to see this? Because they're developed, they're rich, they understood this game. much better. They've been economic. superpowers of the world. So they also. understand that creating an ecosystem. gives you some kind of edge. >> Why did they do it? >> I I think there is a difference in the. approach of both Europe and the US. uh the US really has a lot of fossil. fuels. >> and today it's the largest fossil fuel. exporting country in the world.

>> which is you know an eye opener for most. people who think that maybe it's Saudi. Arabia or Iran or you know Russia or. something like that but the US has. really invested in developing its oil. and gas and today. >> US exports more than Saudi Arabia. >> Yes. uh and um and and that is why uh. and and under the current. administration, the US has taken a very. strong turn or a very definite turn. towards doubling down on fossil fuels.

>> where they're saying that all this. renewable energy is hogwash. I don't. really care for it. I don't even care. about climate change, which is why. they've pulled out of the COP. agreements. and um and uh they are saying you know. what fossil fuel is the is the story of. the future and that is why we want to. invest in developing more and more. fossil fuels and we want to export more. and more of it and um and so a lot of. this disruption that is happening. globally and oil prices are going up and. down is actually creating export markets.

for them. So they are actually able to. export their gas production to Europe. and other parts of the world in a very. big way. Mhm. >> So I would say the US is actually quite. comfortable in with fossil fuels. It is. quite economically uh it it'll benefit. from fossil fuel prices going up. Consumers within the US may not because. you know the price that they pay at the. pump is linked to global prices. So. consumers individually may be impacted.

but companies within the US will benefit. substantially and as a country the you. know on a net basis the country the US. will end up gaining. so they are very happy and they've. really doubled down on becoming a fossil. fuel country right now. >> but also that changes from. administration to administration under. the Biden administration it is all about. renewable energy and let's you know they. came up with this massive uh uh you know. incentive uh plan for renewables. So.

it's a little confused you know they. sort of go from one extreme to the other. depending on whether there's a. Democratic administration or a. Republican administration. So it's hard. to say what is the US's. consistent view. Okay. Today it's fossil fuels. That's. the path that they've gone down. Um. Europe on the other hand I think was a. little bit naive in the way they. approached the whole situation. First of. all as I said they exported a lot of.

their manufacturing base to China and. now China is really eating their lunch. as far as manufacturing is concerned. So. that's really not good for Europe. Number two they let themselves be. dependent on cheap Russian gas for the. longest time. And then when the Russia Ukraine war. happened and Russia showed up on. Europe's doorstep uh from a security. standpoint suddenly Europe woke up to. that danger and said oh this is really. not good for us and they try to cut off.

Russian gas but then the question was. what you know where else would they get. their gas supplies from. So then they. turned to the US um which was obviously. their NATO ally but under the current. administration their relationship is. going up and down. So suddenly Europe is. very exposed right now on energy. supplies. They really don't know what to. do. Meanwhile they um their energy. prices are very high and therefore their. manufacturing industries are becoming. uncomparitative. >> But one credit to Europe is that they.

are sticking to their views on the whole. issue of climate change. And that's why. they are saying that you know what. anything that now enters Europe we want. to assess how much carbon there is in. that product and we want to price that. and if you have too much carbon in it. you have to you'll have to pay what is. called this carbon border adjustment. mechanism tax. So their whole economy is. going to be a little bit isolated from. the rest from the rest of the world and. it's going to be a higher cost economy.

>> and what that is leading to in the long. run is a widening. um or a diverging economic gap between. them and the US. So if you look at per. capita incomes in Europe and the US. which 20 years ago was more or less the. same, the US is now 30% 40% higher on a. per capita income basis than Europe is. So I don't know how Europe is going to. find their solutions but they have to. you know think through this very very. carefully. >> Is it going to be worse for Europe as an.

economy if they. >> so I think so I think so and um um I. don't think that they found a good. solution to this whole problem. >> and especially in an era of leaders like. Trump and Xi Jinping who are very. economically driven. Yeah, look, I won't. say that European leaders are not. economically driven. But the problem is. that Europe is very fragmented as a as. an as a block, right? Every country has. their own leader. It's 28 countries or.

however many countries they have in the. European Union. Decision-m within the. European Union is very difficult as as a. block. >> So, they have some of these issues and. problems that they have to sort through. But again, I'm not an expert on Europe. I, you know, I just see what I see from. the outside. Um but I I can see that you. know energy is going to be tough going. for them. >> and you know they unlike India which. where we can aspire to become a. manufacturing power in clean techch they. can't because the costs of manufacturing.

are a lot higher. >> so that's you know labor costs are. higher energy costs are higher so. >> it's going to be tough for them. >> US. it's surprising not many people know. this that the world is US is the largest. exporter of fossil fuel in fact recently. Recently I was reading that post the. Iran conflict. the most amount of LPG that we get is. from US. Earlier we used to get it from. Qatar and the West Asia. >> but now we get it from US and post Iran. war we have been dependent on US for our.

gas needs. >> Yeah. So I'm not surprised because we. can't you know a lot of the gas that we. used to get from there is not coming out. any longer. So where's the choice? There. are some industries that are entirely. based on gas whether it's LPG or whether. it's now the um fertilizer industries. So you need the you know you need gas to. operate those areas. Do you believe in. this that some countries are. incentivized to do wars because then. they make other countries dependent on. them? Like post Russia,

>> Europe got dependent on US. Post Iran, a. lot of Asian countries got dependent on. US including India for energy needs. >> Yeah. I look I think maybe that is true. in the short run because then you know. if there is only if a lot of the world. supply which is coming from the Middle. East gets curtailed because of the. crisis that is happening in the state of. Hormuz and then the US emerges as the. alternative supplier. Of course that's. where people are going to go to get. their supplies from.

but long-term people are also thinking. that you know this this disruption is. not good for me. I'm paying a higher. cost. It's showing to me that supply. chains are inherently fragile. >> and therefore the longer my supply chain. uh and the more dependent I am on it the. more I'm exposed and the best supply. chain I can get is one that uh is within. my borders which I can control and so. that's what everybody then starts. working on and in the long run.

you know this dependence people are. going to work towards ending it. >> yeah but how will they work towards. ending it. >> by going uh uh you know by electrifying. their economies and then trying to have. a domestic electric supply chain by. moving the user industries as much as. possible towards electrification. So a. lot of that is going to happen. So you. know the so you know as when I started. in this industry it was all about. climate change. >> That is what drove the industry to get.

started. Somewhere in the middle it. became affordability because it became. cheaper. So that is what drove renewable. energy. Today it's energy security and. you know while climate change was a. little bit ephemeral you know high level. big picture something futuristic. >> hard to understand this 1.5° what impact. would it cause me is it really caused by. temperature change or is it caused by. some other factors who knows right but. scientifically I understand it.

>> but energy security is something people. understand from the gut because it hits. their wallet immediately it hits their. dependence on other countries. immediately. It weakens your. geopolitical position immediately. >> So this is now becoming the biggest. driver. >> of a country trying to and especially. India saying you know what why the hell. should I be dependent on other countries. I'm going to be masters of my own fate. and my own destiny and therefore let me. make sure that I address this problem on. a war footing. So that's what's going to. happen and that is what is going to.

drive our sector forward now in a much. >> but how far are we from becoming truly. independent or let's say largely. independent. >> I would say 10 years because I think in. >> just in 10 years you think we can be. majority of energy will come from. in-house like from just within the. country. >> see energy will start coming from. inhouse even faster than that because. all of our generation is now hap. electricity first of fall is within you. know it's already now everything is.

coming from inhouse right electricity is. now fully domesticated. >> the supply chain for electricity is. going to be fully domesticated in the. next 5 to seven seven years let's say. including batteries uh and all the other. stuff. >> electricity. >> electricity. >> energy we will I think um get rid of. most of our gas imports through things. like green ammonia and green hydrogen uh. and by electrifying sectors. most likely in 10 years. Um and.

what else is there? Uh other than that, it's just a question of then taking the. supply chain further back uh into. minerals and so on. That may take a. little longer, but I would say in 10. years a bulk of that will get done. So. here let let me ask you a wider question. in comparison between countries. So in. next 20 years who. who will be the leader like will it be. China because they control the supply.

chain of the entire ecosystem. Will it. be America because they are highly. focused on fossil fuel and then actually. capturing sort of the countries nearby. who which generates fossil fuel or will. it be India India where there's growing. demand growing appetite and fast. innovation. So I think that and by the. way this is an excellent question and. this goes to the heart of what's. happening in our sector right now. My. feeling is China see China is sitting.

with an enormous lead right now in the. whole electricity area including the. entire supply chain including going all. the way back to minerals right. >> and they've got a lock on certain things. like rare earths which are used to make. permanent magnets which go into a lot of. other things motors whether they're you. know based on fossil fuels or not. they've really expanded their footprint. >> That lead is going to be impossible to. remove. >> So they'll definitely be sitting right. at the top. >> Okay. >> Okay. Of the whole energy value chain. Okay.

>> And their size and scale is so much. larger than anybody else's that whatever. they do uh is going to drive the rest of. the world to a large extent. >> So it looks like China has won the race. >> China certainly is uh at a point where. they are far away ahead. So I would say. that there are so so let's let's put. them here right. >> now what's happening is and as I talked. about earlier there are going to be two. broad buckets of countries right there's. this fossil fuel countries and there are. electric countries okay in the electric. countries China is far away ahead and is.

going to definitely be sitting at the. top. >> on the fossil fuel side you have the US. which is definitely far away ahead of. other people uh but it's not like. countries like Saudi Arabia and the. other oil rich countries are not also. close behind they also are close behind. Um but I think the US is certainly. sitting at the top on top and are going. and moving rapidly in that direction. Um. the question is what is going to be the. interplay between these two buckets. I.

think over the next 5 to 10 years a lot. of countries are going to try to remove. their dependence on the fossil fuel side. and are going to try to migrate towards. the electricity side. So I think in that. sense China which is sitting on top of. the mountain on this side is going to. have an advantage as more and more. countries. >> try to get into that into that space. Okay. >> So I think longer term therefore the the. I think the the focus is going to be a. little bit more on going the growing the. electricity side and in that sense China.

is going to eventually end up winning. out. The big thing that they have going. for them is technology because on the. one hand you're digging things out of. the ground in fossil fuels. On the other. hand, you have a lot of technology. moving in your direction and long term I. trust in the ingenuity of the human mind. and humanity is going to find cheaper. ways of doing things is going to be. smarter in the ways of doing things and. that is going to drive this whole. technology bandwagon towards the. electricity side. So I think between the. two.

it's going to be that of the electricity. side. Okay, it may take 10 years to play. out, 15 years to play out, but I think. therefore eventually China is going to. end up being in better shape. So all. these wars, these geopolitical things. that are happening where in some ways. the fossil fuel world is trying to. control fossil fuel supplies, I think is. going to at some level boomerang on them. because other countries are going to. say, you know what, if there's so much. volatility in this area, then do I. really want to be dependent on this in.

this area? >> Screw you. I'm going to fix myself in a. different way. >> Exactly. Right. That's what's going to. happen. Now, where does India stand in. all of this? I think India is going to. go down the China path or we going to go. rapidly in that direction. Uh a lot. depends on how rapidly we indigenize the. supply chain. Uh at this point, all the. actions of the government seem to. indicate that that is an important. important priority for the government. Uh and I'm glad that it is. So I feel.

that we're going to develop a domestic. supply chain on the manufacturing side. relatively soon and that's why I said. within 10 years we will have a lot of. that set up in India. Uh I I think um. you know this government is moving very. very fast in that direction and you know. I talk to everybody in the government um. you know from chief ministers to people. in the central government uh across. ministries bureaucrats ministers and I. hear a very consistent messaging from. all of them and that messaging is very. clear that we want to be self-reliant.

>> that atmander bha is not just a buzzword. it is something that has to be delivered. especially in our sector. >> and that vixit bharat. comes along with energy at Bharas as. well and that means a full supply chain. and if you look at the prime minister's. latest 15th August speech where he. talked about the STAR one of those was. developing the green economy and making. sure that we are energy self-reliant. >> So that's the direction clearly of. travel and that's I must say I'm very.

I'm glad that that is the case. But. isn't it for us wouldn't be a. double-edged sword like today we are. dependent on the fossil fuel which is. the America side we are we are focused. on making ourselves more electricity. dependent and then electricity we are. focused more on renewable energy okay. but that gets us closer and more. dependent on China because the supply. chain they own as of now so as more and. more we get more electrified trade,

we'll be more dependent on China. >> No, but this is where we have to play a. very delicate balancing act. >> Today we're already dependent on the. fossil fuel countries. >> Yeah. >> Right. Uh but as I said, at least there. are many of them and many of them are. our close allies. Here there's a. dependence on one country. So while we. move in that direction. at the same time, we have to develop the. supply chain. The two have to go hand in. hand. >> Okay? >> You cannot just do one or the other. They have to go together. Otherwise it's.

not going to have to build our own capa. capacity and capabilities 100% of. >> the entire supply chain that we spoke. about absolutely. >> from research from rare earth% yes we. have to there's no other choice and. >> is it happening. >> as I said it's it's it's. >> happening in the equipment and research. as well that's the question. >> not to the extent that it needs to. happen but. I am 100% convinced that it that it it. uh it will happen. Uh I think the.

government deeply understands that as. well. And look, this is not a government. effort. This is not a company by itself. going and doing something. This is a. collaborative national effort. >> that government and the corporate sector. and in fact even ordinary consumers all. of us have to work on it together. because you know the consumer has to buy. the electric vehicle. >> Yeah. and they have to say I'm going to. put up my own solar rooftop and I'm.

going to have my own batteries and I'm. going to go in that direction because. apart from energy self-sufficiency and. everything else is also pollution in. northern India which as we know is a. endemic problem. So consumers have to. make intelligent choices that take us in. that direction. Corporates have to do. the hard work of creating supply chains. going out there investing a part of. their profits on R&D which Indian. corporates notoriously are not good at. doing okay because of the reason why we.

are very here and now people okay. >> you invest in R&D. >> we try to and I've just told my people. we got to do much more of it okay but I. don't know that capital markets reward. R&D investing uh because necessarily. it's. >> a problem Right. That's the that's the. problem. >> The whole problem of every. corporate and conglomerate including. you. Now. >> we don't have a culture and we need to. have a much better culture of R&D. investments of getting into capital.

equipment manufacturing. We need young. entrepreneurs to get into ancillary. industries, service industries around. the whole glean techch. >> Why don't you do it? You you understand. the need for We are doing as much as we. can. We are investing almost uh Renew is. investing almost $2 to3 billion of. capital every single year. >> in research. >> Not in research. No, I'm talking. capital. >> No, not infrastructure investment. I'm. talking about research.

>> No, no. So as I said now look 15 years. you know we first went through as renew. as a phase was phase of in the first. three four years of survival to prove. that we had you know we could do what we. could do. Then we had to go through a. competitive phase where we had to. demonstrate that we could execute better. than others and we became number one in. 2017 till about 2023 24 we were number. one now we're number two. Um it's a very. competitive market out there boss we got. to fight every second and every step of. the way. It doesn't leave a lot of time.

for thinking really about 10 15 years. later. It's only now that I'm beginning. to realize that, you know, standing. where we are as a country and based on. all the conversation that we just had. right now, I can tell you honestly, not a lot of. people are thinking about these issues. in the country. Okay? Not a lot of. people are thinking about what should be. our industrial policy, our green. industrial policy 15, 20 years out. Some. folks in government are and that's great. and I can see now a lot of steps coming. into place, but not that many people are.

thinking about these issues. So, so we. need more people to be doing that and in. that sense it's great that we're doing. this podcast. Hopefully, it reaches more. people and more people start thinking. about some of these things. But, >> so therefore, we haven't been good at. thinking about the future as a country, as a corporate sector. And if you don't. think about the future, you're not going. to invest in R&D because you're focused. on the here and now. So, we have to. start doing that and start investing in. R&D at the same time. Now. >> here's a here's a question which I'm I'm. thinking about right.

>> at one side I understand your dilemma as. in as an industry as as an entrepreneur. >> as someone who's leading the company. that you got to do what you got to do. where you get maximum reward from the. capital market. >> right and that's why you would do things. which will get you better valuation. better share which will create more. shareholder value and that's why you. don't invest enough in R&D But as an. entrepreneur, you understand that 10. years, 20 years from now, you will not.

be as rewarded as you are today if you. won't invest in R&D. So what stops you. from investing in R&D? Because you know. like fundamentally you spoke about it. and you want to invest but you don't. >> I'll tell you see there there is a. mindset issue here which is that. right I have to survive today. Uh. >> is that your mindset or the shareholders. mindset or a board's mindset? >> No, I would say it's a general cultural. mindset. India.

capital markets where you know capital. markets not just in India but globally. recognize this you know have this 3. month quarteronquarter kind of a. situation maybe our capital markets are. less matured about R&D investments than. maybe capital markets in other parts of. the world are or maybe corporates are. different you know uh I I don't know uh. I haven't done too deep an analysis on. the mindset issue here but there's a. structural problem also the structural.

problem is that if you look at our. research institutions. um we don't actually have very deep. research that is going on. >> Yeah. >> Um our our academicians are not as very. well connected into the corporate. sector. So they are researching their. own things things that are of interest. to them which could be very academic in. nature. >> There's not good cross collaboration. between corporates and the academic. institutions in India. M. >> and again I'm not finding fault here.

I'm just saying that's a structural luna. that we have which we all have to try to. come together and and and address. You. know some some years ago I had gone to. visit a state university in New York um. because there was a a battery. manufacturing R&D setup there. >> Okay. and the US and this is one of this. is uh in the state of New York and there. were there probably maybe 10 15 state. universities of New York. This is one of.

them and that university because of one. professor who was there who was an. expert in battery technology research. had been granted by the US government. something like $400 million. >> to do research on. >> to do research on batteries. You know, I. think that if I add up all of corporate. India's R&D, it probably does not add up. to $400 million. Okay. So, as a country, we've just not invested in R&D and that. is a mindset that we need to change. And.

I for my part have realized that and I. am I'm now thinking see earlier we were. appliers of technology where we were. just project execution people equipment. Now we've gone into manufacturing where. we are also making solar modules and. solar cells and we're thinking about. what are the other manufacturing areas. that we should get into. As we doing. that I'm realizing that we need to start. investing more and more in the R&D side. as well. So we started some research on. perovskides with one of the IITs. You.

know we're trying to get more closely. linked to IIT research areas. We have. set up a center of renewable energy. excellence at IIT Delhi about five six. years ago. So, and we're trying to do. our bit at trying to cut the gap between. uh academic research and what we. require. >> It's hard going, but we're trying to. sort of move in that direction. Uh and. you know, hopefully over time as more. and more companies start doing that, this will change. We're still very. early. >> Who are the top five players or top six,

seven players in the renewable energy. space in India? >> I would say there's certainly us. Renew. We are the second largest in terms of. we're the largest wind uh IP in the. country. We're the third largest solar. IP in the country and second largest IP. in general. Um we are the top four or. five solar manufacturing companies in. the country. >> Okay. >> Um so we are definitely among the top. >> Yeah. So you are one of them. >> We are one of them. I would say Adani is.

uh number one as an IP right right now. uh NTPC is making a lot of investments. on the IP side. Uh they are pretty far. advanced. So I would say we are the top. three. Um at some point I would presume. Reliance will enter. Uh and I'm sure. they'll do it in a big way because. that's what they've said that they would. do. Uh and then there are several other. companies uh in the space. The Tatas uh. there's another company called Green Co. Uh and you know various other companies. that are now trying to become bigger. So.

it's a it's a pretty fragmented market. um in our sector. >> would be like no large conglomerates. let's say in the energy if you look at. let's say RPSG is one uh inox so these. are are these guys in renewable as well. >> they are they are uh but they're much. smaller right now. >> in renew renewables. >> in renewables yes. >> and all all of the country and all all. the conglomerates are now entering the. renewable space. >> yes so whether it's uh Reliance which I. said is going to enter Adani has already.

been there for many years. Tatas, Biras, um you know the RPSG group, Jindel's uh. Vanta, Mahindraas, >> Sabar, these are the only names that we. know of. >> Yeah. Yeah. To. >> large families. >> Um. >> Torren's also entering. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, no, they've already been. in our sector for many years. >> Um you know, these are the names that. come to mind offhand, but you know, there are many, many, many players. And. do you think that we after all these.

players come in and the way the movement. is happening in renewable energy space. >> will we completely move to renewable. energy or will we still need oil, gas. and nuclear and all because as I said. there are many applications that are. based on burning fossil fuels. >> So coal, gas, nuclear coal, coal. accounts for almost 65% of all. electricity. to get that to zero is. going to take 50 years. Okay? Because. look, if I set up a coal manufact.

>> unless it has got to be decommissioned. because it's reached its end of life. >> So there's no sense in decommissioning. it. So it'll run uh for some time. Plus. the grid needs also a certain kind of. power uh with a certain kind of. characteristics. So unless we're able to. replace that, coal will continue. Um. then transportation as I said earlier. it's going to take an enormous amount of. time to replace all the uh petrol cars.

or diesel uh cars on. >> all the commercial vehicles that's. >> all the commercial transportation then. planes you know making sustainable. aviation fuel all the shipping industry. all of that is going to take a lot of. time because see uh a ship has to change. its engine uh you know in terms of which. fuel it can use that's going to mean. that you have to now start ordering. ships that can run on green methanol or. green ammonia instead of running only on. diesel or or bunker fuel whatever ships.

run on right now. Right now those ships. will take four to five years to get. delivered. and then maybe in one year you'll change. 1% of the ships that you have. What. about the other 99%. A ship is going to. carry on running because if somebody has. already paid for it they're not going to. stop running it. >> until you actually have to you know. scrap it. And so a ship could run for 30. 40 years. So for the next 30 40 years. therefore you'll need that fossil fuel. for running that ship. So some of these. things are you know there are certain uh.

things that we're locking ourselves. into. So for example steel we're going. to double our steel capacity in the next. maybe 5 to 10 years. We can go either. electric arc furnace or we can go blast. furnace. Blast furnace runs on coal. >> If we set up a steel plant today with. blast furnaces then those are going to. run for the next 30 40 years. So those. important decisions the faster we can. start changing those the better. >> But who's going to change those? No.

company's going to do it you know unless. there's some pressure on them. >> or there's some reward. >> or there's some reward. So the. government has to make those policies. So. so you know a lot of it depends on. policym as well. >> So let's say if you were. >> or or it becomes cheaper for them and. therefore the reward is is yeah is is. better for them. Yeah. So let's say if. you were to advise the prime minister of. India to make India the global leader in. energy in next 25 years what would be.

three things that you would ask him to. do purely on your experience. >> and I'll tell you why it's a difficult. question because um see it's easy to say. I want to do this. >> of course. >> but to get it done through all the arms. of the government and listen to all the. corporate sector 20 different voices and. 20 different opinions that you get. It's. not that easy. Okay. >> See, if I'm a bureaucrat and I'm sitting. I'm not a technically well-versed guy in.

that sector. and I want to make a policy on. something, let's say energy related. Then there'll be 30 guys all these large. conglomerates and all these old. companies that have been operating in. the sector all the smart guys like me. will be going and talking to them and. saying different things. >> now 15 of them will be doing it basis. what is good for them maybe five guys. will be saying it based on what is good. for the country. >> but how do they make out now this is.

where their experience comes in. obviously right but it's not that easy. to sometimes you know sift through all. of this So that's why policym is never a. straight line in the right direction. It's always two steps forward, sometimes. one step back, two steps sideways. So it's easy to say. >> I agree. So if I were to coming back to your. question, if I had. >> just three like bets in electricity to. make India globally a leader in. electric. So I would say number one.

focus on developing the supply chain as. rapidly as possible including all the. manufacturing of solar batteries etc. including all the component. >> global supply chain. >> protect it from Chinese imports. through whichever mechanism whether it's. PLI or ALM. etc but give that protection and then. allow domestic industry to flourish and. between the production lint incentive. and through other mechanisms of import.

protection. I would favor the import. protection because that allows everybody. to have a level playing field in India. In a PLI scheme, some people win, some. people lose and the guys who win then. have an advantage compared to the guys. who don't win. Right. And therefore it. ends up being a much more smaller set of. people who end up in that. >> and then only oligo it becomes an oligop. poly and only. >> in some ways. Yes, it does. Right. So um. it disincentivizes other people from. getting it and sometimes the protection. you get from the PLI. >> is not sufficient to account for the.

cost of imports versus the cost of. domestic manufacturing and if it's not. enough then nobody makes an investment. and because. when the bidding happens then you end up. winning bidding too aggressively because. you know you feel it's better for me to. get it at least I'll be better off than. everybody else. So let me win it. >> Okay. And sometimes that therefore you. know the pay scheme that you end up. getting the benefit is too small. >> and then our our our our friends from uh.

the government end up tightening the. conditions so much that it becomes very. impossible to meet them. So anyway there. are various issues. >> and people back off. >> and then people back off and then. nothing happens. So I think the PLI. scheme needs a fundamental re overhaul. Um and I would go for other import. protection mechanisms. That is one thing. I would do which is. >> get the right sets of policies in place. protect domestic industry and let uh the. supply chain develop. Okay. >> Okay. This is number one. >> Number two, I'd really focus on the the.

user industry side. >> and really try to move the user industry. as rapidly to uh either green fuels or. towards electric solutions as rapidly as. possible. >> I'd really incentivize that. I'd give. more subsidies to for people to shift to. electric cars. I'd focus on public. transportation to see how we could. electrify that as rapidly as possible. So for example, the government has. electrified a lot of the Indian. railways, metro rails and all of that.

So that is all good stuff that is. happening but do it at a much faster. pace. Incentivize people faster because. the money that the government puts into. that will get paid off in terms of less. import dependence in the future and. whole bunch of other benefits. So that's. the second thing I would do. The third. thing I would do is I'd really really. put a lot of effort behind building the. grid much much much faster okay and grid. management with much faster deployment. of batteries. >> and just building the lines much more.

crisscrossing all across the country I. would really focus on that because that. is the bedrock of faster electrification. and if you don't have that you can't. electrify fast enough. >> interesting see the whole conversation. from start to end there's a there's an. underlying theme which this transition. >> that we need to transition fast in the. three bets also which you said it's. largely dependent on it right and I. understand also you would be. incentivized to do it. >> but why do we need transition of. electricity in a very simple way as if.

I'm a 5-year-old tell me as and a as a. common citizen. >> why do I care why do I want to shift. from any sort of energy to any sort of. energy. >> you know I'd give you two three reasons. Um, one definitely is pollution. >> Uh, clean solutions are usually less. polluting. If I don't have a coal plant. in my vicinity emitting carbon emissions. and other pollutants,

>> that's going to be much better for me. and my neighboring area, right? So. that's one reason. If I uh in places. like Delhi for example, a lot of the. pollution in the winter months is. because of is veicular in nature. So if. I can cut vehicles into convert them. into electric much better for me right. >> so that would be one I think strong. reason that people would have the second. is affordability. you know the there is the padan mantri. mutur.

biji yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo yo ya. right which is that the government is. giving subsidies I can bring my cost. down so there's affordability by putting. up my own rooftop solutions so why. should I not do it Same thing with. electric cars as well. Longer term, it's. economically better for me to buy an. electric vehicle. Uh maybe there's some. short-term cost of finding charging. stations and connecting to the grid and. all of that. So, it's more convenient to. buy an electric car because the P pumps. everywhere. Okay. >> Right. But longer term economically,

it's better for me to do that uh as. well. So, that's those that's sort of. the second reason why people should move. towards electric solutions. Um so. affordability, pollution, affordability. The third thing is look, we all as as. Indian citizens have to worry about the. life of our children and our. grandchildren. And I know it's a little. bit further out. I know it's not. immediate, but we talked about climate. change. That's something that every.

single individual uh citizen of India. actually of the world should be worrying. about. And if that informs some of the. choices that we make towards more uh. clean energy solutions, I think it's. something that we should all be more. alive to and more educated about. So I. would say that's the third reason that. we should think about it. And again the. question is as a consumer or as a. citizen of India again if my country is. going to be impacted by the choices that. I make right in terms of the country's.

dependence on X or Y or zed and that's. not healthy um you know then also I. should be making decisions and sometimes. look sometimes Raj what happens is you. know there are national missions behind. which everybody has to align behind. >> Agreed. I think this is one of those. things that we all have to align behind. >> True. >> Because you know otherwise we are. putting ourselves as a country you know. much on a much weaker footing. >> then we need to have as a country of our.

stature and a future and the population. demands and expects and requires. >> True. And I I agree with the point of. national mission that we should really. be. thinking. about how do we help as an individual. citizen to make a country more. independent because for us it's a. double-edged sword. We are right now. dependent on so many other countries. So. every war or every little instability in.

the world. makes me poorer. makes each and every. one of us poorer just by rising oil. prices or rising fossil fuel prices, right? >> And if we change that and get to. electrification on another country, then. we're dependent on China, which is not. so friendly country for us. So we are. going to be highly dependent as a nation. and at a mercy of another nation where. both the nations don't want us to grow. as fast as we want to grow and as our.

ambitions are. So we should be very. focused on making choices on daily life. How do we choose better in order to help. our country be more independent and. electrified in that manner? >> No, you are 100% right that there's uh I. I'm totally in agreement with you, >> you know, and there was another let's. say let's talk about for the for the. entrepreneurs who are watching, right? I. was listening to Chamat, you know. Chamat? >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Right. He was saying something about an. energy transition. >> and he said loosely that the next. trillionaire would probably come. from like will be someone from the. energy transition space whoever figures. it out will probably the next. trillionaire right do you agree the. transition of the electricity in the. world is so big. >> it's a massive opportunity for sure. there's no question about it. if somebody develops a brand new energy.

source. um which is cheap which can be deployed. at scale and where the technology is. patentable that person will certainly. become a trillionaire. >> Um you know the single biggest sector in. the world in terms of total investments. right now is energy and within energy. it's now clean energy which is in taking. more investments in than the fossil fuel. industries. So clearly this is the. direction of the future and so as I said.

if somebody figures it out for sure. they'll become a trillionaire like this. >> So let's make it more ground level. Okay. So this is a this is a large. philosophical view or point of view for. everyone in the energy space or in the. capital markets right. >> someone watching this is an entrepreneur. in 20s or early 30s whatever right. >> wants to start a business in India in. the energy space. What is an exact. problem or an exact business which you.

think can help them make large amounts. of money? >> Listen, if I knew the answer to that. question, I would be doing it myself. No, >> you're doing it already. >> No, I'm doing I'm doing some parts of. it. I I think for a new for a young. entrepreneur, see, a lot depends upon. whether you have capital or you don't. have capital. Okay, when I started off, I didn't have any capital of my own. And. that makes a big difference because then. you're dependent on getting capital from. other people. It influences what kinds.

of things you can envisage doing. >> So tell me an opportunity with capital. and without capital. >> So if you had capital, I would think. that something on the manufacturing. ecosystem. Uh. >> what specifically? >> So I can't say you'll have to really it. depends as I said on government policy. to a large extent. >> But let's say I'll give you an example. I was speaking to someone in the energy. sector and they said. for. making some parts of solar energy you. need junction box. >> right that box India may there's no one.

who's manufacturing at scale at a. cheaper price as compared to China so. we're highly dependent on China so if a. small entrepreneur can get small amounts. of money and start making junction box. that's a big opportunity. >> provided imports from China are stopped. >> because if you allow imports from China. that guy is never the Indian. entrepreneur is never going to become. competitive. >> because China is much more. >> which depends therefore on government. policy. >> So that is why I say depends on. government policy. Okay. So areas where. the government decides that this is an.

area where we want to have a domestic. supply chain those are areas which might. be interesting. Now whether it's you. know inverters or junction boxes or some. other little component that goes into. some solar panel or or some battery cell. whatever it might be. There could be. many such opportunities but it all. depends because right now as we. discussed at length earlier today. everything is cheaper if you buy it from. China because they have scale and they. have manufacturing efficiencies.

>> So you're telling me there is no. opportunity for an Indian entrepreneur. where they can compete with China if the. government doesn't do anything. I won't. say that. I won't say that. But I would. say that you know. >> I am not deep enough on the. manufacturing side where I can give you. an answer to that question honestly. speaking. Okay. >> Okay. There may be some small area where. somebody can go in and and set up. something and be competitive possible. Right. I I I operate at a certain level.

of scale and size where you know the. Chinese also operate and in those. sectors and those areas it's it's very. hard to compete with them otherwise. not. just for Indian companies but globally. anybody in the world. and that's also because they get so much. subsidy from their government and. government central and state and so on. that it's very hard. >> um plus our cost of capital is higher. plus our infrastructure costs are higher. uh our efficiencies in general are a. little bit lower so there are lots of. issues that you have to deal with but.

I'm not going to say that there aren't. any sectors where you can't be. comparative with the Chinese I'm sure. there are I just don't know what might. be uh you know given my level of. knowledge at this point on the. manufacturing side I would say for. entrepreneurs really something on the. services side where you're actually. providing something here and now u. whether it's on the asset maintenance. side whether it's on the energy. efficiency side whether it's funding. some uh installations in some of these. areas where it's putting up charging.

stations or providing software to. charging stations uh you know it could. be those kinds of things which are more. installation oriented, more rooted in. the the here and now of having to. implement something at a ground level. Um I would say those are things that are. a little bit more aminable to people who. don't have capital um and who can raise. capital from some private equity or. venture capital type firm something in. the recycling space for example u so.

those are the kinds of areas I would say. and. >> any one specific opportunity which you. feel maybe a problem in your industry. which you feel some if somebody solves. it in India it'll be great to make some. money you must be buying from so many. people there'll be suppliers there Yeah, I think if somebody can help us source. land better, >> land better. >> Yeah. Or help us sort sort out right. away problem. Those are the things that. are endemic to to us. So or somebody who. just does EPC does project construction.

Uh lots of people who can get into those. sectors and uh. >> project construction is a big. opportunity. >> I would say. So because you know all. this 50 to 70 or 80 gawatt that has to. be executed somebody has to do the. execution somebody has to do its. maintenance um and uh all the different. things that go into executing these. projects. >> How big the opportunity would be? >> How big? I would say it would be at. least if I were to assume that um solar.

it would be maybe one and a half to two. kores per megawatt and wind it would be. about the same. So I would say maybe a. 100,000 K EPC total business size. Now a. number of large conglomerates and people. like us we just do it in house. >> but if there was a good credible person. who could do it professionally run. professionally managed that we could. depend on. >> we could also uh you know use some of. their services. So right now there. aren't enough companies or there isn't. >> there are there are uh there are. companies out there but I'm saying that.

there is a lot of demand for those kinds. of things. >> and there's no one or two top. professionally run credible players. >> not yet. >> Oh very interesting. >> not yet. >> So that's an opportunity which I would. >> say that's an opportunity. >> Um again a lot of the sector has evolved. in a fairly disorganized or unorganized. kind of way. So there's an opportunity. for somebody to come in and and be. professional uh in this area. But these. are all hard execution oriented areas. which is not that easy for. >> if somebody wants to make a money.

somebody wants to make money there has. to be something hard or else everybody. would be doing it. No the easy money. comes easy and goes easy. >> True true no I I certainly based on my. own experience I guess that's right. nothing comes easy. You have to work for. it. >> Yeah. There are different levels of work. and different things which people find. complicated but. >> you have to do the hard thing. >> True. >> True. >> So that's one. So EPC we were talking. about. >> EPC software for let's say battery. management services. >> What do you mean by software for battery.

management? >> So you know batteries interface with the. grid. >> Uh batteries discharge and recharge. themselves. Uh they can you know uh so. when should they char charge themselves? When should they discharge themselves? You have software that runs them. Um so. that could be something that somebody. could come up with. Um there are again. companies that are doing that right now. but again nobody very large in that. space. Similarly for running assets uh. wind assets or solar assets how do you. run them in the most efficient way.

possible and take out every last drop of. kilowatt hours that you can get from. them. Uh somebody can come up with a. great software package to do that. Another thing is when does you know how. well does a solar plant run in the. future in the next 15 minutes or how. much is a turbine going to generate. depends on wind blowing or solar based. on cloud conditions and other things. So. forecasting the performance of these uh. assets over the next 1 hour, 2 hours, 3. hours uh is very difficult and but it's.

very very critical information for the. grid because the grid has to you know if. a solar plant is going to go off uh. generation then the grid needs to know. because then they have to get something. else to get ramped up right or they have. to do some demand side management. >> So that's another big area. Then demand. side management is another massive area. today. For example, most homes don't. have any demand side management systems. at all. >> So for example, your in your home, your. fridge, your uh microwave, your.

television, your dishwasher if you have. one or your clothes washer if you have. one are totally all separate from each. other. Right? And there is no energy. management system within your home that. says this is the time at which to run. these and this is the way to run them in. the most efficient way. There's nothing. that combines all of these and gets them. to talk to each other. So getting them. to talk to each other right today also. what we don't have is we don't have in. the grid time of day pricing in the.

western world. You see you you pricing. falls when there's overg generation. happening. Let's say in the middle of. the day when all the solar plants are. running at full tit that's the time when. pricing for uh for energy is cheapest. That's the way when that's the time when. your demand should be highest as well. So you want to incentivize people to run. all their televisions and clothes. washers and fridges and everything else. at that time. >> by making it cheap for them to do that. >> Interesting. >> Okay. So we don't have time of day.

pricing in India. So first of all the. grid has to move to time of day pricing. So somebody can work with the. distribution utilities the discoms to. help them move in that direction figure. out how to price uh electricity you know. and how should that be done and then for. homes that are users of that electricity. to figure out how to use their own or. tier their own demand to match whenever. the prices are cheapest. >> Nice. So for example. >> when you charge an electric vehicle is.

when prices are cheapest. >> and by the way your battery in your car. can also serve as a provider of power. into the grid when battery prices are. the highest. So it's those kinds of things on the. demand side there's a lot of opportunity. there today that is totally. underexploited. >> and that's an area where so making. appliances that can talk to each other. that are intelligent appliances that can. be managed centrally that allow a. homeowner to do all of this efficiency.

maximization. then allowing discoms to run the grid in. a very different way in terms of pricing. uh you know the whole grid can work in a. very very different way so there's a. Lots lots of things to be done at that. end actually. >> I asked you just what's the next big. billion dollar opportunity. >> Yeah. >> And you answered three four. I love it. >> Good. >> Good. >> If you were to start again and this is. 20078 area era for you, right? What is. the next emerging sector which is small.

right now but can be potentially really. big which you see at this moment? Uh I would say. uh one of the areas definitely is. supplying power to data centers. Data. centers is going to grow very rapidly as. we all know. At some point they're all. going to want to buy clean energy, not. grid based power which is 65% coal based. and therefore not clean. Uh supplying.

power to them is going to be I think a. big opportunity in the future. Um so. that's clearly one thing I would say. uh. a second area would be around uh storage. and anything to do with managing the. grid because as I said one of the three. key things is how do you manage the grid. better. >> so I think anything that can help them. to manage the grid better your storage. or any. >> grid management kind of software or. services I think will be very. >> but anything beyond energy and.

electricity do you feel is there some. other emerging sector that you see up. and coming. >> I think again you know, um, if you can. somehow find a way to make home. appliances cheaper, uh, not cheaper, uh, smarter, uh, and more energy efficient, I think that is something that could. also play quite well. Let's take the. case of ATM for example, which is making. these fans, but they're supposed to be. quite a lot more energy efficient. >> What is a personal problem in your life.

which you will pay somebody to solve. for? you know um let me give you an. example on the personal side and one on. the professional side okay just to give. you a diversity of answers here I think. on the personal side um I would say that. u. something related to energy is I have. two electric cars right now and I see. the models that are coming out. you know while the numbers of models has.

increased. still not really that. And um I just want an existing regular. car. >> with an electric, you know, uh sort of engine. >> True. >> Rather than some different kind of car. with an electric engine. I don't know. why people have to jazz up cars just. because they're electric. Just give me. the regular car and just put an electric. engine into it. that is and along with. that give me a lot of charging stations. so that you know I don't have to charge. the car overnight and then have to think.

about you know planning it you know all. of that just adds a layer of complexity. to an already complicated life so if. somebody could really simplify that. >> you know I would say not just me but a. lot of people would shift to electric. vehicles much much faster. >> I absolutely agree I have an electric. car. >> and since the time I've given up on my. uh you know petrol roll car. >> Yeah, >> I have I can't even go to Runavlava. because I'm scared.

>> On the professional side, I would say. that um you know the point that you. talked about which is people very very. very critical uh and there are no easy. answers. Um. you have to touchyfey your way as it. were through through these issues. Do I. need a CXO? When do I need a CXO? What. kind of CXO do I need? How do I get the. right guy or right when I say guy I mean. you know male or female um you know just.

meeting somebody and talking to them for. an hour who knows whether they are. somebody who gets emotional whether they. have the right attitude whether they. work hard whether they're available at. all hours of day or night if that's the. way you work you know uh are they. committed to what they do are they a. good team builder impossible to find. these things out without working with. them for maybe at least six months to a. year. So hiring people is usually a. crapshoot in my in my experience. So you. know what you need to do? You need to.

develop people in house. That's the best. way of doing it. That gives people. opportunity. It allows you to get people. whom you know well. Uh but it requires a. long-term mindset. You know what it's. like? It's like R&D. >> That's what you need to do. You need. >> you need to invest in your people. >> Yeah. >> Uh that that's something that we've. started working What's your process of. hiring an executive? >> You know, um, more and more I'm trying. to move people internally because as. we've been around for a longer time,

more people have been with us for. longer. And I think it's only fair that. if there's a vacancy in the company that. they are the guys who should get first. shot at it. Uh, especially if they're. people we know. It's only rare instances. where there's a certain expertise or a. certain capability that we may not have. Then only we start looking to the. outside for hiring people. But as far as. possible, my view is we should hire. people internally and. >> but that's for your company because. you've been around for a while. >> Yes. >> Young companies like me are fast. growing. It's. >> it's tougher. It's a lot tougher. And.

that is why in the first I would say 10. 12 years of our company's evolution. It. is all about hiring people from outside. >> But now over the last 2 three years I've. really started thinking quite. differently because a lot of people have. been with us for longer than 5 years or. seven years and they've grown with us. they've shown commitment uh toward the. organization and I think that is. something that should be encouraged and. rewarded. So. >> so that's so that I think developing the. organization and you know I tell every.

young entrepreneur that you're not. you're not just building your business. you're actually building two things. A. you're building your business which of. obviously all of us know but the second. thing you're building is you're building. your organization as well. Most. entrepreneurs don't recognize that. And. you have to invest as much time in. building an organization as you do in. building your business. And that really. means thinking about life very. differently, thinking about a people. differently, thinking about internal. processes, processes and systems. differently, about about building a. culture, about building a value system.

Those are very incredibly important. things. And you know, one of the things. that I take the most amount of pride in. is that I have built a company with the. highest degree of ethics and integrity. um as possible and I did it because. that's the value system that I. personally have and I could not have. thought about doing it any other way. >> That's the thing I take the most pride. in actually. >> Nice. That's that's something you should.

be really proud of. Anyway, you know, I. was watching this video this morning um. of Travis Uber founder, right? Where. somebody asked him, "How do you hire. executives?" And he said, "Executive. hiring, nobody in the world has figured. out, >> right?". >> He's like, because. >> you need two muscles. You need somebody. who can. manage. and scale at the same time and you need. someone who's a very core builder and.

who's great with people. So you need. skills which are managing skills and. scaling skills and you need someone. who's the core of the bottom of builder. hustler skill. >> Yeah. >> And this is like left brain and right. brain and getting all of them together. in a single person and finding that in a. conversation is impossible. >> Yeah. So let me take a take a minute to. just talk about a couple of things. One. is that um that uh somebody asked Jensen. Hang a question. >> Uh who's the smartest person that you've. met.

>> and he thought about that and he said. you know he said I I used to think about. smartness in terms of you know. analytical skill sets or somebody who. could write code very well but he said. that skill set is gone now because AI is. going to replace all of that. So he said. the traditional definition that I had of. smartness is no longer valid in today's. world. He says the people that I think. are smart now are people who can see. around corners, people who can. anticipate the future, >> people who have good judgment.

>> Okay. And that I totally agree with. because as an entrepreneur you need to. be able to see what's coming next. >> What how do I position myself for the. future before other people do? So I. think it's very important to have that. ability to see the future and to. anticipate it as best as possible. And. I'll sort of link that to the fact that. when you build an organization, you need. to have in some ways the integrity and.

ethics of let's say the Tata group. Okay? Because we all know they stand for. a high degree of ethics and integrity, right? You need to have the execution. skill sets of some of the large Indian. conglomerates. okay who are well known for their. execution and I don't have to name them. right we know who they are and you have. to couple that with an entrepreneurial. nature of. maybe one of the young sort of startup. companies maybe in the western world.

that moves fast that hustles fast um you. know and that is able to be very nimble. and agile. I think you have to combine. all of those factors and you know at. different points in your company's. evolution you need different parts of. those uh to be stronger. >> True. >> In the beginning you need a more. entrepreneurial mindset where you can. move fast see what's coming. At some. point you need to have the ability of. being able to execute those ideas and. then you need to eventually make sure.

that your organization stands for. something that allows people to come and. join you happily, >> right? That attracts the best people and. therefore you need to stand for. something that is really above and. beyond. So you need to be able to do all. of these things and in your own journey. as as an entrepreneur in the business. that you are creating, you'll have to. think through that and you know in these. things there are no right or wrong. answers. It's something that you have to. understand implicitly and intrinsically. from your gut. Okay? And you have to.

take those decisions true. >> based on whatever you think is right or. wrong. And nobody can come and tell you. Raj do it this way or do it that way. You know, you have to figure it out. >> And that's the beauty of being an. entrepreneur. >> I agree. That's why I've created a whole. show called figuring out. I'm figuring. out at this point, >> right? So you became an entrepreneur at. 45, right? >> Yeah. What's the personal cost that you have. paid to become an entrepreneur in your. 40s?

I. >> I wouldn't say there's been any cost. I. I would say that if anything there's. been joy. I have really enjoyed every. minute of it. I have been in love with. what I do all the all the way through. I've had the benefit of having a very. supportive wife, Vishali, who stood with. me through this whole thing and who's. been very supportive right from the. beginning. Uh. I've been fortunate that I've had good. partners as shareholders and. stakeholders. I've had a lovely board.

over the last 5 years. Um the. opportunity has continued to evolve and. grow much more than I could have. anticipated. Um, and I think I've just been very. blessed in that sense that I've been. able to go through this journey and I. would not have traded this for anything. else in the world. >> There's no cost of fate, >> you know. I mean, I I can't think of. anything really. I mean, maybe maybe I. spent less time with my children. Uh. maybe my mind was more occupied with.

business issues than perhaps it should. have been. Um, you know, but my my. family has not complained about it. So. I'm hoping that you know there wasn't a. cost that I've ended up paying for it. Um. so yeah I I really can't think of uh. anything that uh I would have done. differently. >> But it's a beautiful thing that you. don't think that you have paid any cost. That's a great thing. Most of the people. think that they've sacrificed some part. of their life and they've paid a cost. for an ambition. No, you know, I I I think that in my.

case, my ambition has grown over time as. the opportunity has unfolded. Um, and uh, as I said, I think if you. enjoy what you do, >> then it's not work any longer. No, then. it's just you're having fun. You you you. do what you really like doing. And. therefore yes there are of course points. of time where you feel overwhelmed where. you get into where there are problems. that come one upon the other that you. feel you have a difficult time dealing.

with. Um they you know they can impact. you. They test your resilience. You'll. get knocked down many times. You'll rage. at the unfairness of the world around. you. Right? And you'll say why me? And. all of that will happen boss. And I I'm. sure it's happening to you and it. happens to every single entrepreneur. But that's where you know you find out. more about yourself. You need what. you're made of. You know, you find out. what you're made of. >> You know that resilience ends up being.

one of the most underrated but most. important characteristics of any human. being. >> True. >> You know how many times you get knocked. down and that you can get up. And if if. you feel that you're able to do that, then that's great. >> Yeah. Now some people have a thick skin, things don't bother them. I am not like. that. I don't have a thick skin. I do. get bothered. >> But you know if you if you you know if. you are able to then pick yourself up. and carry on, I think that's good.

>> Were you more ambitious at the age of 21. or 61? >> You're 61 now. >> Yeah. >> Are you more ambitious now or when you. were 21? >> I think I'm more ambitious now. >> Love it. Yeah, at the age of 21, look, you you. don't know about the world. You don't. know about your place in the world. You. don't know what you're made of, right? You have less control over your life. The whole world is unknown.

So, it's harder to really create big. ambitions. because you don't know how you're going. to achieve them. I think at this point, I'm a little bit more mature. I've gone. through a lot of hard knocks. I can see. the future which we've talked about so. extensively over the last you know. couple of hours and u and I that allows. me to see a little bit better as to what. is doable and what is not doable and I. really would like to maximize on what is. doable. >> Nice. Thank you so much. It was pleasure.

having you. Thank you so much for having. this conversation with me. >> Thank you for giving so much. >> No no listen this was really enjoyable. Thank you so much. It's been one of the. much more enjoyable conversations and. you gave me a chance to reflect on so. many things and while I was talking a. lot of things were coming together in my. own head as well. >> Thank you. >> So thank you for that. >> I'm glad I could do that. Thank you so. much for doing this. >> Thank you for watching this episode till. the end. We would love to know what you. liked or disliked about this episode and.

which guests you would like to see on. the show. Let us know in the comments. Your feedback help us improve and make. every episode a little better. I'll see. you next time. Until then, keep figuring. out.