Sam Altman On AI Revolution, Superintelligence & Future Of Humanity | FO583 Raj Shamani

So what version of you has died. like who were you when you started and. who have you? >> Um I was like much more carefree like. when we started open I was just like you. know I was like I had a very easy. [music] life at the time. I had a lot of. hobbies and you know now I'm like. incredibly [music] precisely scheduled. and I have not gotten to do anything. spontaneous in a long time. Was there any point ever in your life. where nobody else was convinced [music]. but just you? Launching chatbt was kind.

of an example of that. Not that people. didn't want to launch a chatbot, but. most people thought it was too early and. not good enough. >> When you talk to other people, do they. tell you that you're delusional. sometimes? >> Yes, but I think I should probably get. more of that. >> Why? >> Well, one way that like a lot of people. in roles like mine have had things go. wrong is they get surrounded by too many. yesmen. >> You've gone through like people suing. you, people dropping out. there's. government like trying to find out so. [music] many things about you. Have you. changed as a person with all of this. now? >> There's no way that anyone was going to.

like get to build super intelligence and. not have a [music] crazy life, but I. think I'm kind of like wellwired for it. Like I can deal with a lot of insanity. [music] whipping around me. >> When I talk to somebody in US, they're. slightly pessimistic about AI. And when. I talk to people in India, they're very. optimistic about it. >> It's an incredible difference. India is. like our biggest market in the world. Why do you think it's the difference? >> One thing that countries that are. developing faster where the economy is. growing faster and there's like more of. a need for products and services and are.

more welcoming of AI than more developed. economies. So, I'm sure that's part of. it. >> Do you think you're still being. misunderstood today? >> This technology is still not very well. understood, but I think people at least. understand AI is happening worldwide. This is like certainly the best time. I've ever seen to make a new company. >> Do you worry about it open? [music]. >> Yeah, of course. >> What's your biggest worry? We have done. something. We will continue to do. something that is going to be an. extraordinary force [music] in society. I believe it can be a force for good. But you know it's like very high stakes. and we have like a lot of.

responsibility. Do you feel that when you're gone. [music] you're not there to guide or. protect your kids or family? Would you. be very comfortable your kids growing up. in AI powered world which you're helping. create today? Before we start today's episode, I just. have one request. Please subscribe our. channel. Me and my team, we work every.

day and try to bring the most valuable. conversation from the world. All we want. in return is just one subscribe from. you. on figuring out we try to study how. the world's most extraordinary minds. think and that's exactly what today's. episode is about today's episode with. Sam Alman is not about AI is not about. technology is about a human being who's. building that technology what are his. insecurities what are his fears how does.

he think as a friend as a father as. someone who's trying to build one of the. most important things which will shape. humanity. How does he notice patterns. and find the nonobvious things to work. on to build something incredible in the. future? That's what we've tried to. understand. I hope by the end of the. podcast, you get to extract some lessons. from his mind and implement in your life. to make your life better. Watch this. episode and let me know in the comments.

how did you find it. And the styling. partner for this episode is Levis. Click. on the link in the description to. explore their latest collection. Enjoy. the show. >> Welcome on the shows for Samman. Welcome. on Figuring Out. It's an honor. >> I really appreciate you doing this. >> You know, if someone's watching you for. the first time and they have no clue who. you are and. how would you explain them who you are. in next 60 seconds? Um, I'm like a.

tech fan, like a curious person about. the world and a believer that. AI is going to be this thing that. touches all of our lives, hopefully in. mostly super positive ways. Um, I'm a dad. I really love my kids. That's. what I would say. >> But do you ever think about certain. things that this is how you're going to. think or say or speak about? Um,

I do just kind of try to naturally talk. about what's on my mind, uh, or what I'm. interested in. >> Okay. And were you like this since you. were a kid, always thinking about what. interesting to say next? >> Cuz I think I was like that as a kid. I. think I would just try to like I I think. I just always like followed what I was. curious about. >> And do you as a kid did you ever feel. inferior to someone. >> all the time? I mean, I'm sure most kids. do. Uh,

but I was like, you know, I was like a very nerdy kid. I. like wasn't good at sports and I grew up. at a time when like that was the very. much the cool thing. >> Same. >> Uh, yeah. >> I was not good at sports either. >> And it was like the cool thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, so yeah, total. I was like not. a I was not I was I always had like a. lot of friends and I connected well with. people, but I was never like a cool kid. >> Okay. Did that bother you? >> Sort of. Um,

I mean, it did not like I don't think it. bother me like it bothers some people, but yeah, I think all kids like want to. be popular and cool and there's like. I think it's like very painful as a kid. to not feel like. in the inner circle or whatever you said. it didn't bother you as it would to some.

people. What do you mean by that? Well, >> what what's the distinction? What did. you think about I. >> I've talked to other people who are like. ah you know the defining characteristic. of my childhood was that I was like a. nerd and not cool and I hated that and I. was like a nerd and not cool and it like. slightly bothered me but I had my. computer and I had like my little core. set of friends and I you know like I had. a wonderful childhood and I I think I. was like very happy. Okay. So, here's. what I want to do. I want to talk more. about your brain, like how you think,

how you actually make decisions, and. what you think about certain things. because I think that's really. fascinating to me. >> Okay. >> And it's great. >> underexplored. >> I I think it's really hard to like talk. about yourself this way, but I'll try my. best. >> Yeah. Maybe just the kind of things you. because you've said a couple of things. in like a lot of your interviews here. and there and I don't know why people. didn't just go like deep down on that. alley. Something I want to do. You know. when I talk to somebody in US a random. person they're slightly pessimistic.

about AI and when I talk to people in. India they're very optimistic about it. >> It's an incredible difference. >> Why do you think it's the difference? >> Um well first of all India is like our. biggest market in the world by touch. users and growing very quickly and you. know there's incredible builder energy. of people using it. >> Bigger than US. Yeah more just India. than the US. Um, and. I mean people are just using it in. incredible ways to build companies or.

you know I just heard about some Indian. kid that needed to do some fundraising. for his school and had never done. fundraising before and like was able to. get like the full stack of it done with. a set of our tools and it was awesome. Um, so I think it's like a country that. has there's just a lot of adoption. It's. growing very quickly. Um but. I I do think that the US at least on. expressed preference is unusually.

negative on AI relative to the rest of. the world and India is maybe unusually. positive. >> But why like what do you make out of it? Why is it why there's difference? Um, one thing that many people have observed. is that countries that are developing. faster where the economy is growing. faster and there's like more of a need. for products and services and like you. know there's just huge under supply are. more welcoming of AI than more developed. economies. So I'm sure that's part of. it.

>> Interesting. And the other thing when I. when I read about you right like with. I'm and I read about you in US and I. read about you in India. this sentiment of being pessimistic and. optimist it also reflects about you and. that's the most fascinating thing that. you're this person who started this most. remarkable technological revolution here. of our age. you were the first guy. You. don't even own equity in your own. company. And yet all of a sudden you. became the bad guy. Like how? Why? Um.

well, I think the US has. great skepticism of people in power and. in particular of like. the just enormous power that the tech. industry holds. Um, but you know, I. would say like. this is probably a good thing in some. ways. It does feel to me like it's gone. a little far.

>> Interesting. What do you think is the. biggest misunderstanding about you in. the world? >> Well, I I mean, you touched on one of. them, but like the I think not taking. not having equity and open eye has been. a mistake. I did it for what I thought. were good reasons. I think it's just. been hugely confusing to people. I like. it's it's kind of like interesting to. me, right? is like if a if an artist. works super hard on their art project or. a sports star like practices super hard. and doesn't make a ton of money from it, no one has like a problem with that. That's kind of understood and this is. like my equivalent of that. But yeah,

like it's it's been. >> Why is it misunderstood? >> Um. what do people not like what do they not. get about it? I think it's just very. outside of the norm of why people assume. that people start companies or, you. know, work as business people. >> True. >> It's just weird. And like people don't. like weird. >> People don't like weird. >> It's weird to me as well. >> Yeah. And then you're like, well, what. what like why is he really doing it? Is. it about, you know? Yeah. >> And why you doing it?

>> I think this is the most interesting. work and kind of the most important and. useful thing I can imagine doing. It's incredibly interesting. is. incredibly exciting to get to do. Like I. mean what a quest. >> True. But it's it's a rabbit hole we'll. just keep going into because I don't. understand this at all just like a lot. of other people. But I really respect. what you do. So thank you. >> Okay. One of the things you said um you. know it takes like.

like I I'll read it exactly as it is. that you should trade being short-term. low status for being long-term high. status. >> Yeah. which most people seem unwilling. to do. Right? So, as long as you're. right, being misunderstood by most. people is a strength, not weakness. I. find it fascinating. But the question is. how before the outcome is clear, how do. you know that this is being. misunderstood and this not being wrong?

>> Well, I mean, the hard part is you don't. really know. You can have like a high. degree of conviction. You can have an. increasing degree of conviction as you. get more evidence, which I think is the. right thing to go for, but you don't. know for sure. That's part of the. excitement like that you don't know for. sure. But when we started when we first. started OpenAI, it was an extremely low status thing to. do. Like we knew it'd be valuable if we. get it to work, but it almost no one. took us seriously. It it was like a. okay, AGI, maybe 100 years from now,

maybe never. you're a bunch of like kids. and you don't have the polished. academics and whatever and. very very negative. Um, we had like a reason to make the bet and. as we. figured more things out, we had a reason. to be more confident, but it's still. kind of amazing it all worked. Um, so I. think it was like a good expected value. bet to take, but it was far far far from. certain. But what were the signals that.

that was making you. very certain that this might work? This. something that I want to do. >> Yeah. Um. I kind of think all of us get like a few. a small number of like great insights. over our lives that we apply again and. again in new ways. And one of them for. me was the sort of surprising properties. of scale. I noticed this in companies, countries, cities, individual people's.

careers, uh lots of pieces of technology. that you know networks like Y. Combinator, which was the thing I was. doing before that when you really scale. up something that's working at small. scale, you often see big super linear. returns to doing it at bigger scale. Um, and because like anybody else, you know, I'm a pattern matcher whether I mean to. do it or not. Uh once. we saw that neural networks were working. at all and they were getting better with.

scale, I was like very interested and I. had a strong intuition that we should. try to scale them up a lot more. Now. this was before we knew how precisely uh. we could predict properties with scale. This was years before we had the scaling. laws. But we had we had this observation. approximately that if you made a neural. network bigger it could do more. impressive things and this had first led. to the Alex net result and then many. more things after but then these were. the signal probably a lot of people must.

be seeing right what was preventing them. to build on it. >> I find this one of the most confusing. things I have ever observed in my. career. why in 2015, 2016 and then even. by 2018 to 2021. um why other people were look looking at. the same data and not saying this is. crazy like we have to invest much more. in this. I it seemed so obvious to me.

and everybody else in the building. I. mean maybe like almost we felt. delusional because we're like how can. how can anybody not how can people not. see this? I I think there was something. about. it almost felt too easy. It almost felt. too. unfathomable. You know, you'd look at the mistakes.

that these neural networks were making. and you would say there's no way that. something so dumb can just fix all of. its problems by scaling it up. There's. it just it seemed like. all these smart people were saying you. have to have. symbolic representations or you have to. do this or I can give you this very good. reason. I remember someone articulating. why our approach was never going to work. and it sounded so convincing. What was. it? Um it was like.

it went something like all right what. these. models are doing is they are learning to. predict. from what's in their training set what's. likely to come next. But that means. they're never going to be able to ex. make new knowledge because they can only. model what's in their training set. And. like that sounds very you know. reasonable. Maybe you can show a model a. million math problems and it can learn. how to do those math problems, but you.

didn't show it a new thing that wasn't. yet proven because it wasn't yet known. and so it wasn't going to be able to do. that. And obviously now we know that's. ridiculous. But at the time it sounded. very compelling. And the thing that it. was missing is that what these models. were are learning is not I mean also is. but the important thing they're learning. is not the. these specific math problems but the. general purpose ability of reasoning and. that that can expand into new things. >> So take me to a specific decision when. you were doing all of this and other.

people were telling you that hey this. might never work out right. Tell me to. one take me to one consequential. decision that you took with 50%. certaintity and 50% delusion. after. we finished training GPT4. This was about like um. I think it was August of 2022. >> Okay. And we finished it about seven or eight. months before we released it to the. world. Something like that. But we were.

we were sitting on it and we were. looking at it and. we knew it was extraordinary. But I. don't. it took us a little while to realize. just like the new avenues of research. this was going to open up and how. quickly the models were likely to. improve post GPT4 and that we could do. what became the chain of thought work. and the reasoning models. And. we then decided we were going to go make.

a very big bet on compute. because we saw that we could continue to. scale models and that the value of these. models would be really important. But it. was new. and. the rest of the world wasn't there yet. They hadn't even seen GPT4. They had not. internalized what it what we thought it. could do. And so we decided we would bet. the company on buying up a lot of. compute. And that felt very crazy to people. But. we had enough conviction that we were.

probably right because we were able to. use this model and we had internalized. the scaling properties. >> And what was the other option? You had. >> a much less. ambitious bet on compute and a slower. rate of scaling. >> And do you think if any amount of other. information you would have gotten at. that point, you would have changed the. decision? I think if the model were even a little. bit less smart, you know, if GPT4 had. come out at like the GPT3.8 scale,

>> yeah, >> we would not have had the conviction to. do such a big bet. >> When you talk to other people, do they. tell you that you're delusional. sometimes even today? >> Um, yes, but I think I should probably. get more of that. >> Why? Uh well, I think one of one way. that like a lot of people in roles like. mine have had things go wrong is they. get surrounded by too many yesmen. >> And you really you need the push back. >> But how do you make sure that today you. are not surrounded with yes men?

>> Um. having your old friends around is very. helpful. Having people that you've. worked with for, you know, 10 plus years is very useful. Um, and then really cultivating a culture. where you reward people for pushing back. hard when you're wrong and making that. easy to do. I think I think is also. important. But it takes like active. care. You know, the more times that. you've been right and the more sort of.

like power in the world you have, I. think the harder this is to get. >> See, here's here's the confusion as a. founder. So when you have like all old. friends, really smart people, the. mentors that you think about, you have. them around you and they're telling you. that, hey, this is wrong and you're. thinking in the wrong direction. How do. you then convince them or probably just. go against them? And how do you know. that going against them is the right. thing today? Because I'm sure this happens.

The number of times that I do something. against everyone else's advice is very. small. Like I it happens. uh but it's rare and and I I like there. are I have met. a lot of people not a lot I've met some. people and founders in particular who. take the most pride in doing something. when everyone else tells them it's. wrong. And my own belief is you should.

only do that very grudgingly. Like if. you surround yourself by smart people, you should mostly listen to them. And if. you decide that even though none of them. think what you're doing is the right. thing to do and you're going to do it. anyway, you should like view that as a. expensive unlikely to be right kind of. high stakes thing. And you really want. to have conviction on that. >> And talking about smart people and other. founders, what do you think? What stops them? They're intelligent. clearly.

intelligent. What stops them to build. such extraordinary things like you've. done? >> Well, I think AI has happened only once. So, I think we got. uh lucky or did a good job or whatever. on problem selection. Um, but I think a. lot of people build extraordinary. things. The the number the rate of great. companies being created right now, I. have never seen it be so high um. worldwide. Uh, I think this is like.

certainly the best time I've ever seen. I believe it is probably the best time. in history to be able to to build. something to to make a new company. Um, to make a new technology, to make a new. kind of creative project. Um, we have. just gotten this unbelievable gift and I. think it's incredible what people are. doing right now. So, I think we're going. to see a lot of very extraordinary. things companies and otherwise get. built. So now that everyone's building. company and there are so many things. happening the action is happening some. founders watching this right now and is.

thinking that. things that are obvious to me because of. AI and technology is not obvious to a. lot of people how can that person judge. that it's the right thing to do and it's. not being misunderstood. >> um I mean this is kind of what you get. paid to do as a founder right like this. is where if you are. starting. the most ambitious company you could. start, you'll certainly be.

misunderstood. >> Yeah. >> Now, there's many other companies that. are obviously good ideas and you can. still succeed big time at those, but if. the ideas are obvious, a lot of other. ambitious people are going to start. them, too. So in. when we started OpenAI in 2015, I think you could count on one hand the. number of AGI labs that were being. started that year. I mean, maybe you. could count it on much less than one. hand. Maybe it was only OpenAI that. year. I'm not sure. Um, and yet there.

were probably like 10,000 photo sharing. companies. Most people thought starting a photo. sharing company was a better idea. Um, but the problem is there were 10,000. others and also Instagram had a big. network effect and whatever else. So, so I think picking things that you have. a reason to believe are more valuable. than they seem, even if they're unlikely. to work. So valuable if they work that. like the expected value is good. Um, you have a real advantage when you find.

something like that. when you understand. a technology or a piece of science or. something about the world before other. people do, um. there's some instinct which I understand. to say ah you know there's all these. smart people and I don't want them to. call me dumb so I you know they don't. get it and they're going to talk me out. of it. But I think there's another. instinct. which I encourage people to cultivate. which is if you really understand. something and it's not just like wishful.

thinking um but you can articulate why. it's a good bet you should cherish those. moments like that's awesome as a builder. that's when you should be the most. excited. How do you decide that? How do. you find a non-conensus bet? >> Uh good question. I I like. my own experience of this was this was. one thing that just no one ever taught. me. And. you know like very little of my. experience in school was figuring out.

what questions to ask. Um you figure to. like answer other people's questions and. then at some point I think like when you. become a PhD student or whatever you get. to start asking more questions and then. eventually you do more and more of that. Um, I I think we should focus much more. on teaching people, teaching very young. people to figure out what questions to. ask and what things are interesting to. explore that we don't already know. And. I think getting good at that skill was. the best way that I figured out the sort.

of non-conensus bets to take. >> Just figuring out how to ask good. questions. >> Figuring out how to ask good questions. >> Can you learn that? >> I think so. Yeah. Uh I mean like all of. these things, maybe not everybody is. going to have equal aptitude for. everything, but I think this is one that. a lot of people seem to be able to. learn. You know, there's I forget which. which culture, which country has this. rule where the kid when when he comes. back from school, the mother asked the. kid that what's the question that you.

asked today? >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Do you know what culture? That's very. interesting. You know what culture? >> I think it's I think it's Israel or. something. Someone in Israel. I'm not. sure but there is some culture where. mothers just ask the kids they don't ask. about the highlight they ask about the. what's one question did you ask today. >> that's cool. >> is that a good habit that we. >> I'm going to start that with my kids I. I'll I'll report back in 15 years or. something. >> but how do you know that it's not. wishful thinking is there a sign is. there some something that you can pin. down to and be like okay if these are.

the signals in the thinking that I'm the. way I'm thinking probably this makes. sense. >> Yeah. Um. I mean oneam one thing is can you. explain it to a. optimistic. enthusiastic but kind of mentally. disciplined smart friend and can you. update them about why it might be a good. bet? So, I remember when we were. starting OpenAI, the the default was. like strongly skeptical, but I would.

talk to people and I would say, you. know, here's the evidence. Here's what. we've seen. Here's why this might work. Here's why it'd be huge if it worked. Um, and here's why this is an approach. that we think. has legs and and then, you know, if we. can make super intelligence, it was kind. of obvious why that would be valuable to. make. Um and and you know, not every. time, but enough of the time when we. talked to somebody who was like a smart. person but a non-expert, they would say, "Okay, that seems you can that updated.

me. That seems like it's worth um. doing." Now, if we had convinced. everybody, it probably would have been. too obvious. But if we had not been able. to convince anyone at all, I would have. been more skeptical. >> Interesting. Now, as I'm saying that out. loud, I'm thinking of there must be. historical examples of where someone was. not able to convince anyone and they. were still right. So, at some point, you. got to just like trust your own. instincts here. Was there any point ever. in your life where nobody else was.

convinced but just you? >> I mean, there have been like small. decisions where I was like, "Open I was. going to do this thing and none of the. rest of the leadership team wanted to.". >> Give me an example. Um, launching chatbt was kind of an example. of that. Not that people didn't want to. launch a chatbot, but most people. thought it was too early and not good. enough. >> Interesting. And what made you go. against all of them and be like, "Hey,

let's just launch it. the YC ground.". >> I think it was the Yeah, I think it was. I think it was the YC experience. I think so. Like I had really I had spent so long. drilling it into founders that if you're. not a little embarrassed of your first. version, you're waiting too long to. launch because what you need is. feedback. The another thing that I had. cuz we had this like internal version. and this actually a good insight. Um the.

the retention was terrible of their. internal version. um I think it was like. you know 5% or something of the first. version of Chacht people would use and. keep using. Now there's a bunch of. reasons why it was bad data in the first. place. We had better models, we had. other interfaces. Um but many people. would look at that and say you can't. launch a product with 5% retention. That's terrible. And. normally that's true. But then you would. talk to those 5% of users and some of. them like really loved it. And.

and there's this other YC learning which. is. the more important thing for an initial. project is a small number of people that. really love something, not a lot of. people that like it a little bit. And so. although the retention numbers of the. kind of internal Chachi PT prototype. were very low, the people who liked it. really used it a lot and really liked. it. And I thought that was a very good. sign. >> And. the first you said two different things, right? The first was being embarrassed. Like it's if you're not embarrassed.

about your first product, then you're. too late, right? Are you okay with being. embarrassed even today? Uh yes, you're okay with being misunderstood and. you're okay with being embarrassed. >> Yeah. I mean, look, I want us to put out. great products, but I'm happy for us to. put out. some early sketches to get feedback and. learn and not all of them will work. But. nothing changes with the scale of your. company now because enough users trust. you for. >> I mean things that we put out to like.

all of the entire CHBT user base have to. have like a a high threshold and also. now that companies I mean this is like. getting close to critical infrastructure. companies are really reliant on this uh. and so for you know for enterprise. products we ship there's like a a very. very high bar. Okay. So now things have. changed now. >> But then we can still experiment with. other, you know, I think hopefully. you'll see us experiment with many new. products. Some of which will really. delight you and make it into the core. experience and some of which people will.

look at and say, you know, it seems like. cool in theory, but it it doesn't really. fit for me. >> Interesting. And the other thing is. we're talking about being misunderstood. Do you think you're still being. misunderstood today? I think at this point most of the world. looks at AI and says okay I believe this. thing is going to happen. Now clearly. it's not all popular. Um and I think our. vision for the world and what we hope. for how people will use this tool this. technology um is still not very well.

understood. Um but I think people at. least understand AI is happening. >> Okay. Interesting. Let's come back to. you trying to do something. extraordinary, right? And you taking. bets on other people as well. And you're. talking about YC, right? There's another. quote which is which you have only. written is I think you're some I'm. paraphrasing and it's something like. your. you have like your will to bend reality. or your will to bend the world. The. percentage of that particular thing is.

really high. Most people don't even try. Something like that you said. Do you. remember? >> I remember something like this. Yeah. >> Like most people don't even try. >> I think it's more like bending the. reality. You can like you can do it much. more than you think or like people can. do it much more than they think and most. people don't try enough. Something like. that. >> Yeah. And why do you think people don't. take the moonshot? I have like a bunch of. theories on this, but many of them boil. down to like.

people want to stay part of the herd and. it's like more comfortable to not do. something unusual and maybe fail or. maybe look wrong or maybe look dumb. And. and there's like a real. It's easy to point to the evolutionary. biology reasons of why this would be. true. like you don't want to get kicked. out of the tribe or whatever. Um, but I. think people have like really strong. pressures to not to not do that kind of. stuff.

just because of the way society is. built. >> I mean, even more than that, I think. society is built the way it is because. of like. evolutionary pressure and and I think. that's probably in like very deep for. most of us. >> And what was in it? you. What was there. in you which helped you bend this will. or the world according to your will?

I I think like a lot of tech people. I've always just had, which would be a. negative in many other contexts, like a. little bit less of whatever that. internal pressure to stay on the track. and do the same thing as other people. And. I kind of think that's probably like. mostly a genetic thing. >> Just genetic? You don't think there's. any other thing that you're building? Oh, I'm sure there's other things, too. But like I I um.

you know, you can find like all these. studies about how people that are like. slightly autistic are like tend to have. are more likely to sort of invent new. science or like you know just get. obsessed with one idea and work super. hard in the lab against all the odds for. it. >> Yeah. And what was the willbending. moment for you? I mean, probably starting open AI. Like,

it's hopefully. It's too early to say, but it's uh I I I think that'll probably. be the most important thing I ever did. >> Do you do you worry about it? >> About? >> Yeah. About about opening AI? >> Yeah, of course. >> What's your biggest worry? >> Um, I mean, we are going to do something. that or we have done something. and will. continue to do something that is going. to. be an extraordinary force in society. I.

I believe. it can be a force for good but and I. will be a force for good on net uh great. good but you know it's like very high. stakes and we have like a lot of. responsibility. >> True. You know this takes me to the. point where you you wrote an essay which. was in the beginning about smi. Yeah. >> Right. And in [clears throat]. after that essay during that May you. wrote you wrote to Elon about it and you.

said something that it would be good if. someone else apart from Google started. it right. >> So you said like the biggest threat for. continued human existence the biggest. threat is going to be Smi. >> right. Why do you think that if you started it. makes less of a threat? >> Well, I believe in pluralism. I don't. think I don't think like only us having. it is good either. Um the there are like.

I think there are two kind of cartoonish. ways this goes really wrong. >> Okay. Um, one is that there's like a. loss of control to AI. and we intentionally or accidentally. sort of seed control of the future to. systems that are unbelievably more. capable than we are and we can't get it. back. Um, and the other is like one person or. company or country gets way too powerful. relative to everybody else. Um, and.

I think that's very unstable. I think. it's actually be much better for the. world for there to be multiple AI. efforts with slightly different. approaches that are competing with each. other and putting out in different ways. And you know, we talked earlier about. like the dislike of powerful people. I. also have this like dislike of two. intense power concentration. Um. I think that's like not I think that's. not what works. So um I'm hopeful we. don't do that. >> So is that what you were thinking when.

you started it as well? that someone. with all the means in the world should. not get this power today. >> Well, at least there shouldn't be one. Like you want I think many efforts. >> Okay. And let's say now there are like. too many, right? There are four, five. large companies. They have all the. capital in the world. They have the. great talent. They have all sorts of. technology research. They all are. working at it. What's your unfair. advantage in this? Um, I think we have, you know, the most. users and the best.

stack from chips to data centers to. models to other things that come around. that um to to sort of put an abundant. put abundant intelligence into people's. hands. Uh I think we have the best brand. and the sort of the values that people. who are going to use this technology. want. Like we want everybody else to. succeed and I think people can feel that. from us. We don't want to be like the. one company to rule everybody. This goes.

back to our founding. >> No, I was talking about what makes you. the Sam. >> Oh me personally. >> What do you think is your super. advantage? Uh, well, I've been doing it the longest. I mean, I guess it's not true. I guess Dennis. has been doing it longer than me. I I I. think I have like a big advantage of. just having had a lot of time to watch. this development all the way through and. not just for the intuitions about how to. run the company, but.

connections throughout the whole. ecosystem. Uh, they really helped there. >> Interesting. But you must be doing. something right. You said not sure about. how to run the company but you're doing. something right about the company. because when you were fired there were. 700 people who threatened to resign. What do you think you did right as a. founder that 700 people like almost the. entire company is ready to back you? >> Um I don't think it's any like one thing. but and I don't think this is I don't. think it's even mostly about me. I mean.

maybe the thing that I I did is I got to. like you know pick the leadership team. and sort of set up how we what we run at. and how we how we work. But uh I think. the thing that we have done most right. is we've just built an extraordinary. collection of people really motivated by. the same mission um with a very healthy. culture for. the right combination of being sure and. high conviction where we need to be that. and being open-minded and exploratory. everywhere else. And that that that is a.

special culture. I I I think like the. someday when the history books get. written on OpenAI, the thing that I hope. they talk about the most is. our rediscovery of the kind of culture. that makes a great research lab and how. why that had gone missing for so long. >> And what can people learn from the. culture that you've built here if. someone is a young founder who's trying. to build something like this? Um, one. thing is having.

very high convictions, extreme clarity. on what you are setting out to do. And. even if what you set out to do, maybe. even more so if what you set out to do. sounds crazy to most people, the fact. that you are willing to. take that approach um to talk and think. that way is very appealing to some set. of people. And so when we started, we. said we're going to try to build AGI and.

this is the direction that we're going. to push in to try to get there. But the. main thing is that like we have a bet on. AGI and if our initial direction turns. out to be wrong, we'll change. There. were not many other efforts in the world. that were still willing to say they were. trying to build AGI. I think even Deep. Mind at that point had stopped saying. they were trying to do it. And so. although most people thought we were. crazy and didn't want to be associated. with us, we were effectively able to. concentrate all of the really talented. people that also believed in this. And. as I've looked at some of the other kind. of great science and innovation projects.

in recent history, many of them have had. that in common. >> Interesting. So you just pick up like. incredibly far-fetched big problem and. be very clear about it that you're going. at it. That's how you build a great. culture company. Maybe far-fetched is. not what I would pick, but like pick. pick a problem that is. like point at something that some really. talented people really want to work on. Be very clear and focused that that's.

what you're trying to do and don't. hedge. Don't don't kind of like give. other people a reason to, you know, don't don't let the fact that. you're like some people are going to. call you crazy or stupid or worse try to. convince you to not. to mince your words. Um, and then and. then you can get like a very high. conviction set of people together. pointed at something really important. >> But then. you consolidated like you you attracted.

all this talent in the world, right? And. then they started leaving few of them. and you call this like AI drama as a. Shakespearean. Yeah. >> Right. So let's say Mina left, Ilia. left, Dario started something else. Elon. >> they all are also building something of. their own. They also don't get along. like everybody's building their own. thing. What is the disagreement about? You guys were the first ones to start. it. Now everybody's building their own. thing. Um. I.

I think there is something that happens. in many people's brains where they only. trust themselves to build this because. the stakes feel so high. Interesting. But it's and is that because of the. approach or is just like. the. or do you feel the concentration of. power in someone else's hand? They they. worry about that or they worry about the. way that someone's going. >> I think they go together. Um.

I think it's somehow like. his approach is bad and so I can't let. power get concentrated in his hands. Something like that. >> It's approach and trust. Yeah. >> Rather than that. And you've gone. through all of that. Have you changed as. a person with all of this now? Because. you've you're young. You've. >> not that young anymore. >> Yeah. But you've gone through like. people suing you, you starting something.

crazy, people dropping out. There's. government like to find out so many. things about you. >> There's no way that. anyone. was going to like get to build super. intelligence and not have a crazy life. Um, so I'm kind of not that surprised. And I remember, you know, early on I. kind of didn't think about it in any. serious way when we started OpenAI. Um, but then once it became more clear to me.

that it was really going to work, I. remember like thinking very clearly. like, man, my life is going to get very crazy and. that sucks. But I think I'm kind of like wellwired. for it. Like I can deal with a lot of. insanity whipping around me. >> Why do you say so? I mean seem that cuz. I I like it seems like I can. >> And you were sure about it since you.

were since you started the company? >> I that I was sure I'd be like okay for. dealing with it? >> Yeah. >> No. Um. no. Again, when we first started, I. somehow like even if I intellectually. realized that this would happen if we. were really successful, I didn't like. emotionally sit with it until later. Do. you get nervous usually? >> You don't get nervous, right? I was. reading somewhere. >> Um, I mean, I have gotten nervous. before, >> but now. >> stuff has just gotten so crazy. Feel. like my activation energy is very high.

>> But now, do you get nervous at all or. no? >> Yes, it's just rare. Like it's that's a. like the threshold for it is high. >> Nice. So, tell me it's Tell me more. When do you get nervous and when do you. not? It's a good thing. The last time I. remember it uh was. when we were about to announce the. Navier Stokes result. I was just like this is like such a. crazy I mean this is like the real deal. This is like a you know some of the. hardest things that.

are harder than something that people. have been able to do it and AI is now. doing and I was just like this feels. like a crazy moment and I was I was. definitely nervous about that one. That. was probably the last like really kind. of like heart pounding thing. And do you. do anything to get back to normal? Is. there some. >> I used to meditate a lot. >> Okay. >> Um. like a couple hours a day for a while. and now I don't. But if I if I do get. nervous, I can like quickly drop back. into it. >> Quickly get back like just like this or.

do you have some ritual or some breath. work or something that you do? >> Um. no. I can just like sit and close my. eyes and like get to a meditative state. pretty fast still. >> in like minutes or seconds. A lot of seconds but not notice. >> Yeah. >> Nice. >> Interesting. So what version of you has. died. with who like who were you when you. started and who have you? >> Um I was like much more carefree like. when we started open. I was just like. you know I was like.

I had a very easy life at the time. I. had a lot of hobbies. You know I was like free on a random. Tuesday night for dinner on short notice. with my friends probably. Um, and you. know, now I'm like incredibly precisely. scheduled and I have not gotten to do. anything spontaneous in a long time. And. that's very sad. >> And what was that one moment where you. were like, "Okay, now I can't be. carefree anymore.". >> Uh, where you got this realization? >> People like another version of this is.

people like ask like, "What do you. really miss about like your old life?". And. the last time someone asked me that, the. thing that I realized I really miss is. like going to sit in a coffee shop on a. Saturday afternoon with like a nice big. cup of coffee and my laptop and just. like watching the world do its thing and. like catching up slowly on email, but. mostly just scrolling the internet. And. I have not gotten to do that in years. And uh.

and I don't know why like that was the. thing to like really jump out at me as. the thing I missed, but I do miss that. >> Interesting. >> And you can't do that anymore? >> I mean, I could do it, but there would. be like, you know, two security guys. sitting at the tables next to me and. like I would not just be like an. anonymous person in the world. >> Right. Okay. Coming back to the startup. and the people that we were talking. about and we missed that YC thread,

right? In YC you wrote that you used to. ask people how this could become. monopoly one day. Why you used to ask. this question? Just startups. >> Um you I think we would usually say like. what is what's the moat going to be or. what's the competitive advantage going. to be? But these are all worries that. mean the same thing which is like how do. you not have all profit margins get. competed to zero. >> But is that an important question to ask.

to when you when you talk about. building a moat in a way that it ends up. becoming a monopoly. >> I think. >> from day one because when you start a. startup you don't know. >> I don't think it's the most important. question. No, I I was going to say I. think it's like. I think it's not as important as other. questions that we ask. It's not the f. like. >> the only question. >> Not even the first few questions. Like I. I'd always start with just like what is. the product? Why do users need it? How. you going to get more users? So it's. like an element of strategy, but I don't. think it's like it's it's definitely not. the most important one.

>> Okay. But is it an important one after. like let's say company gets to a certain. amount of scale then? >> Yeah. I mean, I think it's some version. of the like what is your long-term. competitive advantage going to be is an. important question. Um, but not like a. top. it's not the most important question. >> It's not. And then if so, you used to. meet like thousands of companies, right? And you have had an incredible investing. career as well. So, you chose these. companies like Reddit, Stripe, bunch of. them.

Can you tell after meeting a founder in. like 30 40 minutes that this person will. be able to build a company or not? >> Not perfectly but yeah I mean I think. you can have like a pretty strong. intuition. >> What is that? Like tell me what what do. you see? What do you understand? What. pattern do you see? Uh. one of there's like many obvious things. that I could say. I'll try to say the. ones that I think don't get talked about.

as much. If they're like a clear. communicator and they can really explain. things well and it's easy to follow, this is a huge thing that I look for. um. if I leave the meeting like convinced. that I want to work with them um that's. a huge thing I look for because you know. a big part of the job of a of a early. stage founder is to be an evangelist in. all these different ways with founder. with other founders with customers uh. with people they're trying to hire um.

with investors so that's something that. I I look for um you know if if they can. like come up with new ideas quickly and. improve on ideas quickly. That's a thing. that I look for. Um, you know, if they seem to have like. interesting new well-reasoned talk. thoughts on the world I haven't heard. before, that's a big one. Things like. that. >> Interesting. But even after all of this, there's one thing that a lot of. entrepreneurs talk about is pain, enduring capacity. Can you judge that?

>> I think that's hard to judge directly in. a 30-minute meeting. you can ask people. for, and I used to do this sometimes, like stuff in their life history that. points that out. Um, but I think it's. hard to tell that like internal. conversation. You have to rely on. stories they tell. It's just And can you judge someone's. lying or tr or is telling you truth when.

they tell you some story about they've. endured certain amount of pain? >> This is what I mean. I think this is. like hard to Yeah. And what's about you? What's what do you. think is in you that. what amount of pain you can endure that. 99% of the people will not? >> I don't think this is like my biggest. advantage um relative to some other. founders I've seen, but I I am like I am. really willing to stick with something I. believe in and just keep going. >> And who's the other founder that came in. your head?

>> I didn't have like a particular. >> Okay, you just said it just like that. But do you know anyone who has like. really good pain enduring capacity and. they're like they can just be at it? Um. I don't have like one specific name. ready to go here but like yeah I was I. was definitely impressed by like many YC. founders over the years who would just. like grind it out without much signal of. success and you know with very little in. the way of resources and is there a. pattern between all of them Stripe. Reddit.

apart from them being good communicator. >> um I think there all of these things. that are, you know, are. traits that many founders share, but. there's very few that I would say are. absolutes that exist across everybody. Um, one of the. one of the great lessons of YC is how. many different ways and how many. different kinds of founders can be very. successful.

>> But but what pattern do you see in them? Like because this is just well. I. I mean again I think there are these. things you can say like that you got to. be driven and smart and a good. communicator and you have to like. have an idea you're really willing to. commit yourself to and you have to.

yeah I think we could make this like. long list of founders traits and I think. we could like a long list of good. business traits. But. one of the interesting observations and. I think why. sort of existence proof for how many. different ways there are to succeed is. if you took the top 10 YC companies. and said okay all 10 of these people are. great founders clearly all 10 of these. are great companies also clearly I'm. going to scramble which founder runs.

which or which CEO runs which company. it would be a disaster. And I think there's many things that one. can take away from that observation, but. one of them is that like. there's many different ways to be. successful as a founder and there's not. a single pattern that works in every. case for every company. >> Is there a way that or a single pattern. that can be disaster which is common? Let's say if there's no formula. >> found there's many things that are a. disaster. um lack of drive, lack of.

focus, lack of clarity, lack of vision, um lack of ability to like solve hard. problems repeatedly with a smile on your. face. All of these things are. anti-atterns that Yeah. So, uh there are. many things that are almost certain to. predict failure, but there's al that. part is easier. >> A lot of ways, different ways to. succeed. >> You said the first thing is lack of. drive. >> Yeah. >> And it's it's ambition. a lot of people. talk about. Can you train somebody or. can you teach somebody to be more.

ambitious? >> Yes, I think you can. This was one of my. most uh pleasant surprises. of. YC. Um, and I think part of like why YC. adds much more value to the world than. people realize is that there are some. things that maybe you can't train, but. you can teach people to become more. ambitious. Not everybody. It's hard to. predict who you'll be able to, but it. can definitely happen. how how do you. teach it? >> Um I found that the most successful.

thing was one combination of a peer. group going through the same thing and. two getting people to go through. successive challenges at increasing. difficulty and realizing that they can. do more than they think do more than. they think better instincts and keep. going. >> And did you become ambitious like this. when you were in the same peer group or. you were ambitious from before? >> No, I think I got much more ambitious. And do you think like the ambition comes. from confidence that everyone else.

around me is ambitious or does it come. from insecurity? Um Paul Graham used to. say that there was something about like. the pressure of demo day coming up and. people not wanting to fail. And I think. that's kind of that's a version of. insecurity. But I think much more it. comes from. there's like excitement and there's like. a positive force of being around these. people doing these amazing things and. you're like well you know we all entered. this together and if they can do it so. can I. >> for you it's more confidence. >> I think so and I I really I really think.

that people. if you keep getting slightly bigger. slightly bigger slightly bigger. challenges and keep excelling at them. you you really do build a lot of. successive confidence and learning that. Interesting. And. is it only the peer circle of the group. that makes you like this? >> What do you mean? >> Like is it only that other ambitious. people actually give you these things? >> No, I think you can get it lots of ways. But you know, I think we are as people.

like hardwired to learn from the people. around us. There was that there's that. famous quote which is like you're going. to become the average of your five best. friends so you better pick those five. people really well. >> You believe in it? >> Not quite, but there's some truth to it. obviously. >> What's the worst advice you've gotten as. a founder? >> I mean almost all the advice is. terrible. I don't know how to pick the. worst thing, but I would say I would say. the like uh my meta advice to founders. is listen to less advice. >> Listen to less advice.

>> Listen to less advice. Do you sometimes. go home at some point and be like, "Hey, all this [clears throat] advice is. maybe right and maybe I'm wrong." I. think YC could probably distill. five to 10 very important, highly. confident pieces of general advice from. all of the incredible wealth of. experience. Um, and I think you should. listen to those five or 10 things. Uh. like I think the slogan of YC or the.

motto whatever it like makes something. people want is the like that is like the. single commandment of startup advice to. the degree there is one thing for early. stage startups and then there's like. another list of things that are almost. as important but. you're not going to become a great. founder by listening to like the 800th. podcast of advice about how to start a. startup. You got to just like do it and. figure it out on your own. And a lot of. the advice that you need is so specific. to your case that beyond the like. axiomatic truths, there's not that much.

more to learn from like a one more. podcast. >> Interesting. And but you wrote a you. wrote an essay, 13 rules to become. successful. >> Well, I remember that I wrote that. I. don't I don't remember what they were. And I bet I could do a better version. now. I bet I could do a shorter version. now. >> Okay. So, instead of 13, what would be. >> I think this point about compounding the. one I had first in there. I think this. is probably underestimated. Uh a a lot of people.

I think don't drive themselves to. continued forward progress. The joke of. this is like you know sure you have 20. years of experience but you have 20. times the same one year of experience. and you really the thing that I think is. so cool about a career is you can build. on each successive phase but you have to. continue to push yourself. have to like. keep doing uncomfortable, non-obvious. new things. And a lot of people fall off. that very early in their careers. And so. staying on the compounding exponential. curve um is empirically not what most.

people do. And I think that's a very. good not obvious piece of advice. >> What's the most uncomfortable thing that. you do these days? >> Uh. I mean kind of like most of the stuff. now feels new again. the the. figuring out how we're going to navigate. this current debate about pacing. progress feels like a very difficult. thing to get right and pretty important.

and just yeah hard and new. >> and what do you do to make sure that you. you get it right. Is there something. that. >> a lot of time thinking and talking to. people and trying to get. you know more data and more new ideas. into the mix. Do you ever go home. sometimes and be like, "Maybe I'm wrong about this.". >> Yeah, of course. And I think it'd be. disastrous if I didn't. One one of the. We talk about like conviction and. self-belief and all of that. I I think what some people take that to.

mean is. don't introspect. Just like be sure in. what you're going to be sure and don't. question it. I try to like question. everything all the time. Uh, I still try. to like act consistently and with. conviction until I find a reason to. change my mind. Um, but I think this is. really important. >> Give me an example. How do you do it? My. process often is just to keep thinking. about the same question from every. different angle, throwing out a bunch of. bad ideas, trying to like break them.

apart or find problems with them in my. own head, then going to other people. Um, taking more input, trying a. different version of it out, adapting it. again. I think it's like an iterative. process like that. >> Like give me an example of this. like. would you let's say what's your current. big problem and then you're just. questioning from different angles and. >> I think that one that I just gave the. the like this question of how do we. think about. the pace of progress as we enter this. RSI era and how do we avoid these two.

ways that things could go wrong either. way from a loss of control incident or a. concentration of power incident and what. is the right governance mechanism how. like how do we think about how smart an. AI system should be allowed to be. relative to a person. How quickly can. that improve? How do we think about the. questions around. security and monitoring and alignment um. and you know where can we afford to take. risks and not. >> and does that change when you're at.

home? Because when you're at home. >> Yeah. >> and you see your kids and you see your. family and you see like okay maybe I. think from a different lens. I am a big. I mean. when I'm with my kids I try to just hang. out with my kids and be the best dad I. can be and I try not to get myself. distracted think about other stuff. Um, but I have noticed a big difference like. on the weekend mornings when I'm working. at home versus in the office. And I am I. am a real believer for me at least that.

finding some sort of rhythm where you. can like intensely be with people and. working very interactively and then have. real chunks of time where you can like. shut out the world and just like think. and work on your own. That back and. forth rhythm is super important to my. particular style. You can do that easily. or you have to learn hard way. >> Yeah, that's just what works for me. It's very natural and easy. >> Shutting down and shut like just being. >> shutting down. It's just like a very. different way of working. Like when I'm.

working at my office at home, it's like. a very solo style of work. And if I only. did that, it would be a disaster. But if. I didn't have that and only was like. constantly in meetings at the office, that also wouldn't work for me. So I. need that back and forth. >> Interesting. And when I asked you about. the family, I what I meant to is. because you said this is the biggest. fear that you have that it could go. either way. Do you feel that when you're. gone and you're not there to guide or. protect your kids or family, would you.

be very comfortable. your kids growing up in the world AI. powered world which you're helping. create today? Yeah, I think it I mean as I said. earlier there's all these ways it could. go wrong and uh so I don't know what the. future's going to be look like look like. but I am comfortable that. I have enormous trust in people to. figure out how to adapt and thrive and.

make society better for all of us and. yeah I think the world will keep will. most likely keep getting much better. >> Perfect. Well, here here's the last two. questions that I ask everybody. What's. the most extraordinary thing you want to. build next? >> Oh, man. Um, the thing that immediately. came to mind is I am extremely excited. to see how far we can push AI to. discover new science. Um, math.

the math results were quite amazing to. me and it really made me think that we. are closer to this milestone than I. expected us to be. But a machine that. can help us understand the world better, discover, you know, the deepest insights. in physics, figure out new medical. treatments, uh new source of energy, things that I think we can't even. imagine but that better scientific. understanding will enable. Um I am. extremely excited for us to go build. that that machine. I I have always been.

struck by how much of the world getting. better is better scientific. understanding and the fact that I think. we can now. really have AI accelerate that is going. to be transformative for for humanity. >> and that's something that you want to. build. >> Yeah. >> And what's the cost of becoming Sam. Alman? Becoming this person who is. probably shaping the most important. technology of mankind. H.

it's hard to answer that cuz like. subjectively it's just like this is my. life now. You know I I. I gave you like the trivia example. earlier of. I I can't go work in a coffee shop on. the weekends. Um, but.

I feel like so incredibly lucky to get. to do all this that although it's like. tiring and stressful and, you know, a. lot of people's anxiety gets projected. onto me and there's like all of these. just sort of like life trade-offs, this is like all I know now. Everything. else is this like distant memory of this. past thing. So I don't like. I don't have this like real like. suffering. Oh, it's so horrible. What's. happening to your mindset about it? >> Fair. Fair. Well, thank you so much.

>> Thank you very much for having me on. >> Thank you. It was really good. I hope we. get to do this many more times. >> Me too. >> At some point we'll just deep dive and. like do a much longer version of it. But. thank you so much for doing this. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. >> I appreciate it. >> Hi. >> How's it going? >> Good. Hi, I'm Raj. Nice to meet you. >> Thank you so much for doing this. Nice. to meet you, too. >> Thank you so much for doing this. >> How are you? >> This is cool. I'm good. >> You like the setup? >> I've never seen a setup like this. before. I do like [music] the setup. No,

I'm good. It's like it's uh it's an. extraordinary time in terms of just all. of the model progress. >> How are you doing? >> Good. I'm pretty pretty good at this. point. Little nervous, but I think I'll. get through. >> I would love if you would try this. Yeah, of course. You tell it's great. >> Tastes good. >> Oh, perfect. >> What's What's the most important of the. mushrooms?

>> What is it? Lion's mane and. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I feel good. >> You feel good? >> Yeah. >> Oh, amazing. That That's We'll send you. a lot of options. >> Thank you so much for watching this. episode till the end. All I want you to. do is three things now. Number one, please subscribe. The more you. subscribe, the better the guests we will. be able to get for you and the more. valuable conversation we'll be able to. build. Number two, please comment and. tell us what did you like about this. episode and what you didn't like about.

this episode. And who are the kind of. guests who you want to see? Please give. us those suggestions in the comments. We. read almost all of them. And number. three, please share this episode with at. least one person whose life will change. after listening to one of the lessons. from the episodes. I'll see you next. time. Until then, keep figuring out.