NYU Professor: The Middle Class Is A Lie & How To Escape It | Scott Galloway | FO570 Raj Shamani

The people who have asked themselves. what could go right have been more. successful than the people who have said. what could go wrong. The optimists have. absolutely beaten the [music] crap out. of the pessimists. >> How do you get a lot of people vouch for. yourself? >> I mean one to be good at what you do. >> You create a reputation. Two is try and. build as many debts as possible. What do. I mean by that? Always be on the lookout. for how you can help somebody else is a. gift because it helps to be very social. make a lot of contacts with people.

establish emotional friendships. And. then three, every opportunity to help. somebody else is like an investment. In. 10, 20, 30 years, that person is in a. position of power and they remember that. small gesture you made to them when they. weren't powerful. That compounds just. like investment. >> Scott Galloway, professor of marketing. at NYU's Stern School of Business and. Entrepreneur. If you want to understand. how the economy is really rigged, why. young people feel poorer and more. anxious than ever, and the concrete. moves that actually build wealth, this.

episode is for you. How can someone. who's watching this become a risk taker? People get very risk aggressive on a. screen. What I would suggest is take. more risk offline. Talk to a buddy about. maybe starting a business. Approach a. strange [music] woman and ask her out. for coffee. Show up to a job you're not. qualified for and apply [music] for a. job. take more risk offline and less. risk online. >> When you feel anxious and powerless. today, how do you get back power over. your life? Now, [music]. >> I have a a system for getting out of it.

I call it um Scappa. S is sweat. I try. to work out a lot. I find that it resets. my brain. C clean. I try and eat really. clean. A abstinence. Abstinence from. alcohol and marijuana. But when I feel. myself getting depressed or really like. going into a dark place, I just cut the. substances out. And then F, a family. I. find hanging out with my boys is very. restorative to me cuz they're so [music]. demanding and such jerks that I can't. think about myself, which is good when. you're depressed. And then a for me is. affection. I'm not feeling great. I let.

the dogs up on the couch and I let them. lay on me. I think we're mammals and for. me kind of human touch is really. restorative for me. >> How can somebody be charismatic and. convincing? >> What I would say is. >> I have a small favor to ask you. I need. you to subscribe to our channel. The. more subscribers we have, the better and. bigger guests we can bring and provide. you more value through these. conversations. And the full audio. experience of this show is also.

available on Spotify where you can. follow us and listen to the new episodes. as well. >> I was watching few few of your podcasts, right? I saw a bunch of things and you. love contrarian insights. >> which I absolutely found insightful and. amazing. >> What's the biggest lie that you see in. economy today? >> The biggest lie that the middle class is. a naturally occurring me uh organism. that if the argument from free marketers.

and people on the right is that if we. just let the market do its thing, the. middle class will thrive. And I don't. think that's true. The middle class is. an accident of history. It typically. doesn't exist. It usually in almost. every economy throughout history, a. small group of blessed, fortunate, hardworking, talented people aggregate a. lot of power and wealth. And they use. that power and wealth to slowly but. surely weaponize government and get. people in power to pass legislation or.

laws that help them aggregate more and. more power. And if you let that run. unchecked, ultimately the middle class. begins to shrink and there's a transfer. of wealth from everybody to the top 10%. So loosely speaking, in the last 20 or. 30 years, we've had a $50 trillion. transfer of wealth from the bottom 90 to. the top 10. Unless you redistribute. income into the middle class, unless you. tax have a progressive tax uh structure.

and provide opportunity and subsidies. and tax breaks and in infrastructure. investments for the middle class, it. will die. It's not it's an accident. It. requires distinct funding. It doesn't. just naturally occur. I think that's the. biggest lie. But why does every economy, every president, every government all. around the world, they say that middle. class is rising, middle class will. become the next big thing and that's. what we should bet on, right? Why is. that a sentiment then?

>> Well, it's true in some nations. In if. you look at the countries that have. aggregated the most power and influence. over the last 30 or 40 years, there's. one litmus test and that is how many. people are they adding into the middle. class. So arguably the greatest one of. the greatest victories for humanity is. China adding a half a billion people. into the middle class, lifting 500. million people out of poverty. Now. there's a lot to not like about the CCP, but that's arguably the biggest, you know, the biggest accomplishment in.

humanity. India is now adding a ton of. people into the middle class. And who. are the two most descendant countries? China and India. So adding people to the. middle class who create a tax base, a. healthy society, they fund the military, they feel good about their nation, they. create political stability, they create. loving, secure homes that raise children. that are good citizens. You know, the. middle class is it requires investment, but it is the gift or it is the basis.

for a productive healthy society. >> But then can a middle class person. become really rich in today's economy? canability. Uh yeah, there's still so I. mean the reality is if you look at. income mobility 11% of Americans go from. the bottom fifth to the top fifth one in. 10 that hasn't gone up or down much in. the last 30 or 40 years. So the reality. is there is still income mobility. [snorts] The difficult thing is is that. you can correctly say to a middle class.

person or a young person, you have no. right to be disgruntled. Your life is. better than the wealthiest person on the. planet 100 years ago and your life is. better than a very rich person's 50. years ago. There's some truth to that. The the problem is that's not how the. human brain works. The human brain is a. function of relative comparison. And. that is if I see these people. aggregating the wealth of a small nation.

state and I see people and I'm reminded. 110 times a day that if I'm not parting. in aa or I don't have a boyfriend with. ripped abs that I'm failing, then you are anxious and unhappy. And. when you see all of this incredible. wealth being aggregated and then you. layer in the the fact that these people. aren't paying what Bernie Sanders would. call their fair share [snorts] and in. many instances the most famous of them. don't appear to be that empathetic to. the struggles of the middle class. It.

creates resentment and anxiety. So there. are real economic issues, but what. speedballs that it makes people really. upset is that every day they feel as if. they're failing if they haven't made. millions selling Ethereum or they're not. partying with black coffee and mkinos. and they see the.1% life as something. that should be normalized for everybody. So there's a trend among young men.

called looks maxing where they're. getting jaw implants and lengthening. their legs because the algorithm is. telling them this is what the.1% looks. like and what you should look like. Women have been dealing for with this. for for 15 years since social one mobile. [snorts] and that's now their standard. Their standard isn't their friends at. high school. their standard is. algorithmically presented 110 times a. day the 0.1%. So it creates a level of. anxiety and depression and also there's.

just some economic realities. In the. United States, 40% of US households have. medical or dental debt. They, you know, a huge swath of American households. can't afford to pay out of pocket when. their daughter has a root canal. And. then they see all of this unbelievable. wealth being aggregated. So [snorts] a they are having a. difficult time. Inflation wages have not. kept pace. Was that true? Wages have. wages as a percent of GDP have remained. flat. Corporate profits are at an.

all-time high. So the difference between. the two is trillions of dollars of. shareholder value and these people. aren't sharing in it. So even when you. can say to them with Netflix and. Novacane, you are better off than the. richest person 100 years ago. That. doesn't work. All they see is massive. wealth creation they're not. participating in. So, it's it's one, they're not doing as well. The average. person under the age of 40 is 24% less. wealthy in the US than they were 40. years ago. The average 70-year-old is. 72% wealthier.

The conflict or the tension isn't. between. rich and poor or young and old. It's. between the incumbents and the entrance. I own a house. Do you have a college. degree? >> No. >> Okay. I have a college degree. I'm an. incumbent. I have a college degree and I. own a house. The moment I own a house or a college. degree, I do two things. I try to stop. the issuance of new housing permits. because the f the the the lower the. supply of new houses, the more my house.

goes up in value. >> I purposely advocate for the dean and. chancellor of my university to lower the. admissions rates such that the value of. my degree goes up. The result is there's. an incredible aggregation of power and. wealth to the incumbents, people my age, at the expense of the entrance. >> So a college degree and a house have. become almost out of reach for your. generation. The assets I own, stocks, have wildly appreciated and every time.

they go down, we use debt to. artificially prop them up. So what we. have is this rejectionist what I call. LVMH strategy where the incumbents are. hoarding opportunity and wealth and. young people have figured this out and. they correctly resent it. M so here's a. question on this that this feeling of. anxiousness this feeling of that I'm. failing already in my life which a lot. of young people have right is it because. of young people's own insecurities and.

their human nature or is it because the. system has actually made it a point to. make more young people feel insecure so. that they start spending more money on. trying to look max and whatever they try. to do. >> I think it's all of that I There's a. variety of things. Uh first and. foremost, I think that mental health. is uh very strongly correlated to. isolation. So 40% of the pubs and clubs. in the UK have closed since co people.

aren't going to church as much, remote. work, they're not going into work as. much, remote schooling. So young people. aren't around each other as much. The. number of high school students that see. their friends every day has been cut in. half over the last 20 years. interaction with others is really. healthy. And so you have big tech, which. is now 40% of the S&P by market value, trying every day, a billion times a. second, to figure out a way to get you. to spend one more second on this and one.

less second with friends and with family. and pursuing friendships or romantic. relationships. This creates anxiety. This creates health. more anxiety, more. health, and there's an economic. incentive to move you more towards. digital platforms, promising you a. frictionless form of life. And the. result is men ages 20 to 30 in the US. are now spending less time outdoors than. prison inmates. So, I would say the.

number one cause is isolation at the. hands of an addictive technology that. keeps you on screen, further. sequestering you from the most important. thing in your life, and that is. relationships. you're also reminded. every day that you may not be doing well. uh on your phone. Again, that's that. mimatic or comparative or relative. >> Um I think there's also real issues in. the economy that make young people feel. less happy about their lives, a lot of.

pressure to achieve a level of success. If you're on Instagram, it feels like. everyone's rich and hot but you. Like. everyone's so hot, everyone's so rich. I'm neither of those things. what am I. doing wrong? And then, you know, different things attack different. people's self-esteem. With young men, there's less o there's less obvious past. the middle class that really attacks. their self-esteem because men are still. largely evaluated in society in their. own self-esteem based on their economic.

viability. So, when there's fewer paths. to the middle class, it attacks their. self-esteem. And they also um need and. benefit more from relationships than. actually women do. Women are better at. maintaining a social fabric than men. So. they become isolated, less economic. opportunity, don't develop the skills. for friendships, romantic relationships. or work relationships, and they kind of. go on this downward spiral. With women, especially teen girls, Instagram has. been an absolute weapon of anxiety. the.

entire high school cafeteria is. following them around everywhere and. judging them and the pressure, you know, you just as your brain is getting wired. and you're most insecure, you have the. high school cafeteria following you. around. There's no safe place from. judgment, from shame. And actually, we. don't like to talk about this, but boys. bully physically and verbally. Girls, girls bully relationally. They're. actually much more calculated in their.

terms of their attacks and we put a. nuclear weapon in their hands with. social media. Some of the things that. teenage girls do to each other on social. media is very strategic, very calculated. and incredibly vicious. >> Give me an example. >> Oh, spreading rumors about somebody. They say something stupid online and all. of their friends in the cool group weigh. in and really shame that person. Whereas. men, boys typically like start yelling. at each other, maybe come to blows or.

scream at each other, and then it's. over. So, they're not as calculating, they're not as thoughtful, they're not. as meticulous. And this is all happening. in a period where your brain is being. wired. You're especially sensitive. You're especially self-conscious. Maybe. you don't feel like you can really speak. to your parents about these things. So, and then if you go online and you. start saying I'm depressed, the. algorithms will pick up to it up on it. and begin serving you a lot of content. sort of normalizing depression, normalizing eating disorders. So,

they're up against a what I would call a. real enemy in the form of big tech with. no regulation. There's no reason anyone. under the age of 16 should be on any. social media platform. Uh we should. absolutely there's no reason to have. phones in schools. Uh so there's a lack. of regulation around a technology our. instincts haven't caught up to yet and. also more single parent homes in the US. than anywhere in the world. And there's. evidence that shows that boys really. um um are hurt when there's a lack of a.

male role model. And that is when a boy. loses a male role model through death, divorce or abandonment. At that moment, he becomes more likely to be. incarcerated than graduate from college. What's interesting, Raj, is that girls. in single parent homes have similar. outcomes as dual parent homes. Same. rates of college attendance, similar. rates of self harm, a little bit more. promiscuous because they're looking for. male attention in the wrong areas, but. largely the same outcomes. So what it.

ends up is that while boys are. physically stronger, they're emotionally. and neurologically much weaker than. girls. And they really need male. mentorship. And without it, they kind of. come off the tracks. So there are. variety of economic, sociological, and. even biological issues that have. resulted in what is the most anxious and. depressed generation, young generation. in history. Only one in four young. people feel good or extremely good about. the US. Three and four people my age.

feel good or extremely good about the. US. >> Wow. And you you feel large leads. because there's constant comparison. because of big tech. >> Well, yeah. Constant 105 times a day I. get a notification that I'm failing. That's what it like that's what it's. like to be a young person. But tell me. isn't it. >> here's just a question that. >> if you are constantly comparing yourself. with someone who's doing much better in.

your life. >> Yeah. >> Right. And you look at that person. similar age, similar background, similar. country and you feel like oh he he's. just like my me or she's just like me. and is winning in life. >> Y. >> doesn't that make me more ambitious that. I can have that too because now there. are possibilities. It's the game is not. rigged. someone my age just did it. >> So that's the argument from creators. that their content inspires people and I. think there is part of it is an. inspiration but I think a lot of it.

results in unrealistic expectations. that ultimately um and in disappointment. and anxiety. I think comparing yourself. to other people's other people is uh can. be motivating. I think online it's. become a source of incredible. disappointment and anxiety for young. people. Um I mean so something I. actively do. >> I don't ever take pictures of myself or. post me at the World Cup or something.

like that. I hate wealth porn. And people. >> porn. >> people basically what you're seeing. online is someone's fake version of. their life and shoving their wealth and. their success and their beauty in other. people's faces. Filters, pictures of. their feet at the almond resort in in, you know, in Greece or whatever. And. everybody is creating a totally. unrealistic, irrational, aspirational.

vision of their life. And I think. unfortunately young people start to. think that's the bar, that's the. standard. >> And I think over the medium and the long. term, it makes them feel it can make. them feel like they're failing. >> So. >> see, this can there can be two. situations, right? is the way you. explained right now. >> when I look at you that you have a house. and let's say a post from you like at. the age of 30 you bought your house or. whatever whatever. >> you are this globally successful writer.

you are at the World Cup. >> when I look at that I get inspired that. I want to do it. >> right versus there are a lot of people. who see this as failure that oh you're. doing it and my life is because I'm. not able to do it. >> what's the difference between somebody. who's getting inspired versus somebody. who's feeling like because they're. essentially two same people looking at. the same thing. >> So America's superpower is its optimism. >> People make crazy investments thinking. they'll work out. People leave their. company, safe company, and start new.

companies with crazy ideas. So we're. optimistic. We take a lot of risks. That's is kind of the secret sauce of. our economy and our success. The. downside to that level of optimism is. everybody believes they will someday be. in the 1%. And the reason why we. continue to tolerate a tax policy that. transfers money from the bottom 99 to. the top 1% that's not even accurate. Transfers money from the bottom 99.9 to. the top.1%. Is that the bottom 99 believe someday. they have a shot of being in the top 1%.

>> But the problem is, and I can prove to. you mathematically, 99% of us will not. be in the 1%. So when you're young and. full of vigor and you see podcasts and. you're inspired, some people like. yourself figure it out, take risks, and. it pays off and you can point to people. as an inspiration. Most people are good people who are. talented, not remarkably talented, have. decent luck, not great luck, and they do.

fine, but not great. And so. the bar is so high now for what success. looks like and you're taught online that. if you just keep at it and any Here's. the here's the problem. This is the this. is the dilemma with a quote unquote. meritocracy. When you tell people that anyone can do. anything that anyone can be we tell kids. from the age of 0 to 22 you can do. anything you want. >> Yeah. >> That's A lot of it's luck. A.

lot of it is your parents wealth. A lot. of it is when and where and who where. you're born and things you can't. control. Your sexual orientation, the. color of your skin, the parents you're. born to. But when you tell people you. can be anything, what you're also. telling them is if you aren't. successful, it's your fault. And that attacks a person's self-esteem. when they're not. There's just when I. survey my business school students.

within within 5 years. 70 to 80% of them expect to be in the. top 1% income earners. Now granted. that's an ambitious group of people be. highly credentialed but they're setting. themselves up I don't say they're. setting themselves up for failure but. the expectations are enormous right your. happiness isn't a function of what you. have your happiness is a function of. what you have and what you expect. So the expectations in a digital economy. with wealth being thrown in your face.

every day, this notion of meritocracy. that anyone can make it, all these. success stories of people who came from. nothing but they kept at it and then. they became and then now they're on a. Gulf Stream that has created that has. normalized. um totally irrational outcomes and it. makes the people who aren't able to. achieve those irrational super super. fringe case outcomes, it makes them feel. bad about themselves. >> But isn't that good that you have these.

these like incredible examples? >> Mhm. >> Which is somewhat responsible for. spreading spreading optimism in the. world. >> Yeah. So having aspirational figures is. good, but if you can't if being a big. part of becoming Warren Buffett or or or. >> Oprah or Elon Musk is the ability to get. a degree from Omaha State or McGill, wherever Elon Musk went to college. And.

every year it gets more and more. expensive. to go and maybe you're not cut out for. college and you have to borrow a ton of. money and you drop out of college but. you still have that debt and it's put a. real strain on your family or. you can't even dream of moving to London. or New York because it's so expensive. or you maybe find a romantic partner and. you want to save for a house but a new.

house in London or small starter house. in San Francisco's 2 million and you. think I will never be able to save it. down. So all of the things that kind of. signal commitment and success and. ability to move up the income ladder. feel as if they're getting out of reach. for young people. And I think that's. incredibly discouraging. When I went to. UCLA, the admissions rate was 74%. Three. out of four people who applied got in. I. was the 26% that didn't didn't get in. But I appealed and I got in. My total.

tuition for five years of undergrad and. two years of graduate school was $7,000. Total tuition all seven years, right? I. think the total tuition now for an. in-state student would be about 180,000. And even more than that is not even the. cost, it's the accessibility. Remember. the 74% admissions rate? At UCLA, the. admissions rate this year will be 8%. So you work your whole life, you're. good. You know, you're a kid, you've. studied hard, you've done well, you've.

sacrificed fun on weekends, and you get. rejected from everywhere. And maybe you. get into a good college, not a great. college, but the good college has the. great college price tag. Your parents. middle class, they can't afford NYU is. $100,000 a year, tuition abort. So, you. might have to borrow a 100,200, $300,000. So, you start life with debt. And by the. way, if you want evidence that we're. screwing young people in America, one of.

the great things about America is. bankruptcy laws. You make a series of. bad decisions or you get unlucky, you. can declare bankruptcy and you wipe out. your debt and they can take everything. from you, but you have a clean start. You have a clean start. That's one I. think that's a wonderful thing about. America. We don't have debtors prisons, right? There used to be people in prison. who couldn't pay their debts, but. there's certain there's a small number. of forms of debt that are not. dischargeable in bankruptcy. You can't. get rid of them. And one of those things.

is student debt. What debt should be the. most forgiving? Maybe the debt that. young people took on trying to better. themselves, but no, we've decided that. debt. So you end up with hundreds of. thousands of kids who start their life. with debt. They're told they can do. anything. They're told go to college and. then every day they're they see. everyone's doing great. Maybe they don't. graduate from college and they're told, "Oh, you can make money trading online.".

And then they found out it was a scam. and that more people have lost money. investing in crypto the last three years. and have made money. So, I just think. we're setting young people up. the path to I feel like the ladder that. we're constantly trying to pull the. ladder up and I think young people see. it happening and are justifiably really. upset about it. So, yeah, I'd like to. think I inspire you. I'd like to think. you inspire younger people. So, I think.

it's a double-edged sword. And I think. that the balance is totally swung to. unreasonable expectations. and my generation. stealing opportunities. that I had from a younger generation to. maintain my wealth. Right? [snorts] When. COVID happened, the markets crashed. Right? I'm sorry. When 2008 came, the great financial. recession, the markets crashed. We. bailed out the banks, but we let stocks.

crash. I bought I was coming into my. prime income earning years in my 30s. So, I took the little money I had and I. bought Apple, Amazon, and Netflix for. $810 and $12 a share. They're now. somewhere between $200 and $300 a share. >> Then COVID happens. The market should. have crashed. It crashed for about 6. weeks, but then the government came in. and flushed trillions of dollars into. the economy on young people's credit. card. We never taxed. We never when the. economy came back we didn't say okay we. got to pay it back big taxation we put.

it in the form of debt which is. basically a tax on future generations. young people to prop up asset classes. So what we've decided to do is that. whenever my wealth is threatened we're. going to take your credit card and we're. going to bail me out. Because when you. bail out the owner of a small business. who's a baby boomer, all you're doing is. robpping opportunity from the young. person who wants to buy that restaurant. for pennies on the dollar. Disruption.

and tumult. and exogenous events are meant to be a. natural part of the cycle that transfer. wealth back from capital to labor to. young people. It's a natural part of the. cycle. And what we've decided to do is. interrupt the cycle and borrow money. against the future earnings of young. people to maintain the wealth of these. people. Do [snorts]. >> you know this is a fascinating point. that you just made that. old people the system is designed in a.

way that people with money are stealing. money from the future earners of the. society. Right. But the earlier example that you gave. that when there was a crash happened, you bought Apple, Netflix, Amazon, whatever at like $810. and you made it. I see this more as an. inspiration rather than anything else. because I somewhere in some small city. of some part of the world I started with. probably nothing. >> Mhm. And then I looked at people like.

you and thought hey you know what he. started writing he started teaching and. then he got his opportunity even when. the soc the entire system was corrupt. and crashed. >> still he survived so he knows something. I need to learn that and I'll make it. big in my life as well. So I see all of. this as a big inspiration rather than. and I think it's a good thing. I don't. think it's a bad thing at all. I think it helps if you're remarkably. talented and lucky. Um, I'm not I'm not. suggesting that.

people can't get inspiration and. shouldn't have aspirations. >> because until I had that, I would have. never been I would have never even tried. to do something in my life. I would have. just accepted my reality and probably. had gone out to some community uh so. like some community small business and. probably would have gotten a job at $200. a month. Well, so an example of that, so. first off, having a globally connected world where. you can be inspired by people from all.

over the world, I that's a healthy. thing. There's a very positive impact to. that. So, for example, when I applied to. college, I was either going to UCLA or I. wasn't going to college. I I I couldn't. even go to Now, if you're a talented kid. from the inner city who's poor, Harvard. will find you. >> Yeah. >> They recruited in these tiny. neighborhoods now. That's a wonderful. thing. So there's absolutely a positive. side to this inspiration and getting to. see people. Uh what I would argue though. is there's a dark side to it and that is.

Harvard only lets in 4% of its. applicants despite having a $53 billion. endowment. So, I think inspiration and. aspiration is fantastic, but shouldn't. we increase the likelihood that people. will get to reach their aspirations with. more freshman classes at universities? Trying to figure out a way to lower the. cost for young people, trying to lower. the anxiety levels of new families as. they're forming through things like. universal child care or universal health. care. In other words, let's maintain the.

aspirations, >> but let's try and make the path to the. realization a little smoother for young. people. >> True. Do you think when we see both of. these things like the entire economy, there's inspiration and the system is. designed in a way where only few people. can win, not everybody can win. >> Yeah. >> When this is the reality today, because. of this, do you see people becoming more. optimist or pessimist? >> Oh, young people. America, young people.

are becoming much more pessimistic. I. mean much more um anxious, depressed and. not feel good about the future. I mean. I'll give you an example. AI is. technically the future. AI is technology. [clears throat] of the future. 3/4 of. people in China feel good about AI. Only. one quarter people in the US feel good. about AI. >> So if you were to say what represents. the future in technology, it would. probably be AI. But people have a. feeling that all AI is going to mean for. me is my electricity rates are going to. go up. And some people are gonna get. really rich and I'm not going to be I'm.

not going to be one of them. So I think. it's important that we have winners and. losers. I think it's important we have. billionaires. The question is should. those billionaires be paying a tax rate. to reinvest back in the things that help. people have a shot? And I think America. unfortunately has become about trying to. identify the 0.01% and turn them into. billionaires. Whereas I think the. attitude used to be when I was growing. up, how do we give as many people as. possible a chance to be a millionaire?

How do we create a tax system and a. middle class and job opportunities and. inexpensive accessible education such. that. uh a a a a. good person who works relatively hard? Maybe not freakishly talented, maybe not. comfortable taking freakish risks, but. maybe over their lifetime can save a. million dollars, have a nice home, be a. good citizen, coach little league, go to. church. Now it's like, no, you need to. be Mark Zuckerberg. And if you're not,

you've failed. So I I think that there's. I think we have a society that's become. the feeling is not only winner take all, but everyone should be that winner. And. um. I think we've attacked. the self-esteem of young people through. a lack of opportunity and again. unrealistic compar comparisons. But when. [snorts] when you look at that winner.

which is top 0.1%. >> Right. >> Right. Do you feel that today? >> Yeah. >> A young person can still make that in. America by pure meritocracy. >> or is there some let's say a referral. system going on? >> The most important indicator of your. success is not your grit or your. character or your talent. It's. uh when and where you're born. Um. >> or who you know. >> Pardon?

>> Or who you know or not. >> Well, that's sort of who you know is a. function of when and where you're born. So, the smartest thing I ever did was to. be born in California in the '60s. because what that meant was I got free. accessible education at world-class. universities, UCLA and Berkeley. It. means when I came of professional age in. the 90s, the internet was booming and. I'd come out of Berkeley accidentally. So I got to raise I raised probably I. don't know a couple hundred million. dollars by the time I was 34. If I'd. been born in Montreal, if I'd been born.

in Bangalore, if I'd been born in Seoul, I'm a talented guy. I don't think that. would have happened. >> So this and being a born also a white. heterosexual male. There were no gay. people raising tens of millions of. dollars in the '90s that as far as I. know there were no women. I mean there. was I mean they they just weren't doing. it. So who I was born all these things. that I had no participation in right so. I you know again there it's always going.

to be a well publicized story of the kid. from a small village in in India who. makes it out gets here and they're. inspiring stories 20% of the NASDAQ by. market capitalization the CEOs are not. just immigrants they're Indian. immigrants those are really inspiring. stories Again, I can prove those people are 0.01enters. also very lucky. >> And I can prove to us mathematically. that 9,999 of us are not in the 0.001%.

The question is. for the 0.01%. Should do they have an obligation in. terms of tax rates to help fund that. that ladder up? I think that's the. argument. So, we've spent the last 40. years obsessing over how to create. wealth. I think we're going to spend the. next 10 years discussing what are the. obligations of wealth. and. your your.

aspirations. and what we you need we need to be. careful and I'm doing a little bit now. You don't want to demonize success. You. don't want to say people are bad just. because they're successful. But I do. think it's gotten out of control where. our idolatry of the dollar and money. washing over Washington has made it such. that the 0.1%. are quite frankly hoarding wealth and. opportunity at the expense of the bottom. 99. And one of the wonderful things.

about America was we always invested in. the future. I'm wealthy because of. DARPA. That is a government program to. create a postapocalypse. communications network that ultimately. became the internet. That's what made me. wealthy. That was a technology financed. by middle class households trying to. protect against a nuclear attack from. Russia. Maybe the second reason I'm. wealthy is because of GPS. And that is smartphone and GPS satellite. technology. That was funded again by. middle class households. Again,

military, they wanted to have guidance. systems for missiles. But all of these. huge investments through taxation and. quite frankly progressive taxation. created an infrastructure and. opportunities for entrepreneurs like. myself to become wealthy. and then the University of California. again access. So I think every I think. everyone has an obligation if they're. successful to reverse engineer their. success to the things that were not. their fault.

>> I'm not humble. I'm a monster. I'm remarkably talented. I'm. hardworking. I'm smart. That gets me I'm. a point I'm a 1enter in terms of talent. That puts me in a room with 75 million. other people. My life is much better. than the top 75 million people on this. planet. So the question is what were the. things that were not my fault? Being. born in California, state sponsored. education, progressive tax rates, I had.

assisted lunch. I had Pell grants. uh to. help me in in college. My mother access. family planning. If we'd had an unwanted. pregnancy, it would have put us in. poverty. I had immigrants build my. companies. So, I think it's important to. look at all those things that weren't. your fault that are large are key. components of your success and then. ensure that you invest in and support. and pay back around those things. And I. think young people and a lot of people. are worried that the 0.1%.

is very good at crediting their grit and. their character for their success and. then blaming the markets for their. failures or regulation but not. acknowledging just how much of their. success is not their fault. But is it. isn't it also true that in California at. the same time there must be million. other people who were just as who were. just in a situation similar to yours. right? >> Mhm. then only you won for or maybe.

let's say 20 other people won, right? >> What was the difference? Was it. meritocracy? Was it because you were. talented? Was because I'm just making a. point that if all of the people who were. born in California who went to Berkeley. were lucky. >> Yeah. >> Then why specifically you? Is it because. the people you knew or is it because you. were talented or is it because mindset? I don't know. What is that? Well, you're. trying to reverse engineer success. And.

a lot of people, there's a lot of books. on this that say the primary driver of. individual. So, there's two things. There's your individual performance and. then there's the atmosphere, which you. can't control like the weather, >> right? If you're kicking a football and. you have a 40 mph tailwind, the ball's. going to go a lot farther. You can't. control the wind. It's either in your. face or behind you. You have no control. over it. [snorts]. >> I had gale force winds behind me being. born who I was when I was born. So that is a huge component of my.

success. At the same time, I'm a great. kicker. >> I'm a great kicker, >> but whether the ball went 30 yards or 80. yards was, you know, or okay, 60 or 80. yards are things outside of my control. Now, when you talk about the individual, what makes a great kicker, what makes. them most likely to be successful, it's. a couple things. It's their risk. appetite and it's their grit. Some. people, most people, when kids come to. my office hours at school and say, "I'm. going to go to work for JP Morgan for. three years, but then I'm going to start.

a business." I'm like, "No, you're not. If you wanted to start a business, you. probably wouldn't even be in business. school. You would have started a. business." Because the fact that they. want to go to work for JP Morgan for two. or three years so they can get. credentials means they don't have the. risk appetite to be an entrepreneur. >> The primary attribute of entrepreneurs. is they're too stupid to know they're. going to fail. No new business makes any. sense. what you're doing here made no. sense. >> Yeah. >> When you started it, it made no sense. I. don't I mean, I don't know your parents, but I doubt they said, "Yeah, you should. start a podcast.". >> So, it you have to be kind of crazy. And.

that's something I think you're kind of. born with. And that's why young people. tend to be the entrepreneurs that start. these amazing companies cuz they made no. sense and they were too stupid to know. they were going to fail. That's true of. art, too. most amazing artists and. singers did it when they were 18 and 19. when no one was telling them you can't. sing the way or that's weird or don't do. that. So they do these breakthrough. crazy things and then they hit 30 or 40. and they start getting more. um risk avoidant and they have kids and.

they don't want to embarrass their kids. or they think about what music should be. and they start their genius just goes. away. Anyways, young people have this. incredible. risk appetite. So, one, it's risk. Two, they say it's grit. I've had I've. started nine companies. I'm. optimistically. three, four, and two. Like, the majority. of my businesses have either not worked.

well or been total disasters. And I look back on all of them and I. can't say, "Oh, this was a great idea. This wasn't the primary. means or distinction of success was when. I started the company. I found when I. start a company in a recession, people. were cheap, office space was cheap, you. could start a company inexpensively. And. then when you come out of a recession, people are looking for new ideas. When I. started a company in a boom time, everything's expensive. Hard to get good.

people cuz they're working at Google, making a ton of money. uh you get the curse of cheap capital. You can raise money on a bad idea. All. the companies I started in good times. didn't work. All the companies I started. in bad times actually ended up doing. well. But in terms of personal. attributes, which makes you a great. kicker, it's usually your risk appetite. and your grit. The other component on. top of that, well, two components. your. ability to tell a story, your ability to.

communicate and convince people to come. to work for you, your ability to raise. capital, like how compelling you are, and also how social you are, your. ability to establish strong. relationships, your your ability to. convince people you're a good person and. they want you to win. You want to be put. in a room of opportunities even when. you're not in that room. So, when young. people are looking for a job, what I. tell them is I'm like, "Go out and go. out and drink every night." And what do. I mean by that? I don't mean go out and. get shitty drunk. I mean go out and be.

social. Go out and meet people and catch. up with friends. Oh, you work in. Salesforce. Do they have any openings? I'm looking for a sales job. Right. Keep. your eyes open. I'm thinking about. starting a company that delivers or that. sells promotional items with logos on. them. Um, oh, we're we're doing a. conference and we need hats. Can I put. it? You want to know as many people as. possible. And while you're young and. you're social, I think that's I think. that's the key. Google, when they put.

out a job opening, within like 20. minutes, they get 200 CVs, right? And. they shut it down. They bring in the 20. or 30 most most qualified of those CVs. 70% of the time, the person who. ultimately gets the offer had an. internal advocate. >> reference. >> They had a friend. more than just a. reference. They had a friend. They had. someone who was willing to track down. the person making the decision, find out.

they were in building C in the campus, swing by their office and say, "Oh, hi. I work in keywords in strategy for. Whimo. Oh, hi. How are you, Raj? Good to. see you. This guy, this guy, this guy. Bob who's applying, I know him. He's. great. You can trust me. He's great. I. work here. How do you know him? I've. known him this way. this is attributes. is great. There's nothing like that. Nothing like that. So the key is how do. you have as many friends and champions. in as many places as possible. So.

typically people always say that you. know people have a tendency to think. that billionaires are bad people. >> Generally speaking they're not. Generally speaking they're good people. They have a lot of allies. They have a. lot of people who want them to win that. think I like Raj. I want him to win. So. when I hear of an opportunity, I'm like, "Oh, you think of Raj." So I mean, a bit. of a word salad there. Grit, risk, aggressiveness, a lot of luck. There's. just no getting around it. Who and where.

you are born is the most important. signal around where you end up in life. And then the things I would layer on top. of that are your ability to tell a good. story that's compelling and how social. you are. How many relationships, how. many rooms will you be put in of. opportunity uh without being in those. rooms? >> You know, you you said bunch of words. and I'm fascinated. Let's go one by one. in almost everything, right? First, so. risk capital, charisma, social, and want.

other people wanting you to win, right? Like I'm just going to divide into four. parts, >> right? >> So, >> well, social and wanting you pe people. to win the same thing. >> Okay. Yeah. The other one I said was. grit. >> So, so let's say risk. We start with. risk. >> Yeah. >> Okay. You said a lot of people are born. with risk-taking abilities. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Can you become a risk taker even if. you're not born with it like. >> right. >> I can think about my example and you. when you were telling your story that. every time you start a company while. there was a crash it worked.

>> something similar has happened with me. as well. when everything is going great. in my life, even like right now, I still. am experimenting with 20 things and. probably out of them 19 are failing and. I'm putting my reputation and my life on. risk. >> because I think I'm wired like that to. keep taking risk and keep failing and I. don't care about failing because I know. that out of those 100 things two will. work out very well and it'll just be it. right. >> I agree. So. is risk something you can learn?

It's like the way I would describe it is. any sport. A great tennis player to be really top. has to be born with natural abilities. but also practice every day. >> So I don't know if it's 49. This is the. classic argument across every attribute. How much of it is nature? How much of it. are you born with and how much of it is. nurture? The environment you grow up in. >> I'll say it's 4951. But I don't know. which one is 51 and which one is 49. >> America is so successful. The growth has.

just been so unbelievable. And yet the. UK is very similar culture. When I moved. to London, super easy, same approach to. life here for the most part. I mean, some subtle differences. But I said, if I were to describe the. difference and why Americans are so. successful relative to their UK peers, it's because what I say is to a London. audience, you're the ones that stayed. My parents got on a steam ship at the. age of 19 and 21 with almost no money.

and crawled across the Atlantic. And. then when they got off the steamship, there were Union people with loud. megaphones saying, "Go home. No jobs. here." Think about that. You don't have. any money. You crawl across the Atlantic. and there's people screaming at you, "Go. home. No jobs here." But they were. risktakers. And I think I inherited that. risk. And then the people, it even goes.

domestically or more powerful. geographically. The people who decided. to leave the east coast and migrate west. and potentially get caught in the. Rockies in a snowstorm and have to eat. their nephew. Those were the riskiest of. the risktakers. And what are the most. successful companies in the world that. have market capitalizations greater than. the entire public markets of Germany and. Spain? They're all on the west coast. What happened here? Not risktakers, risktakers. The riskiest of the.

risktakers. So the first I would argue. is an appetite, you know, an appetite. for risk. And I think in the US, we have. a lot of risk-taking DNA. The people who. [clears throat] first came there took a. lot of risk. Now there was a group of. people who were brought against their. will. That's an entirely different story. in another podcast. and also the people. who came here. If you're willing to. risk, you know, body, you know, bodily harm. and and come to America illegally, to a.

certain extent, you're a risk taker. I. mean, we don't talk about the upside of. illegal immigration. Those people take a. lot of risks. >> So, anyways, my point is we have. attracted more risk DNA. than any society in history. And also. our system is set up to sort of. encourage risk because if you're in. Germany and you take auto shop in the. 11th grade, you don't need to go to. college. You can make 70 or $80,000.

going to work for Volkswagen or Dameler. Benz. You can get a decent apartment. You can go to a beer garden where. there's a trampoline. You can have a. decent life. And. if things don't work out for you, there's a social safety net. So. the upside seems somewhat limited and. the downside isn't as great which. creates a lack of risk-taking. >> Why do I need to start a company? I have. a nice life. Whereas in the US the.

downside is greater and the upside is. much greater. So I think that encourages. more risk takingaking um than than in um. than in [clears throat] Europe. So I. think a lot of it comes down to just how. risk there's $5 million in risk capital. for every startup in the US. There's one. million in Europe. Even capital is. riskier. There's one of the things. that's so different about the US is that. if your company's scaling, it's doing. well. You can raise a hund00 million for. that company and it might be a great.

idea, but it's still a huge risk. It is. very hard to raise that kind of capital. in Europe. anthropic. If it had it had. started 5 years ago, if it was in. Europe, it'd be one of the four most. valuable companies. So, I think a lot of. this comes down to risk DNA, which we've. aggregated an incredible amount in the. US. >> How can someone who's watching this. become a risk taker? >> Well, what I would say is I think a lot. about young men and I would say more.

generally just basic advice around. risk-taking is take less less risk on a. screen. Don't be mean or provocative or say. stupid aggressive things online. Don't bet. Don't gamble. In my opinion, buying crypto, trading stocks, people. get very risk aggressive on a screen. What I would suggest is take more risks. offline. Talk to a buddy about maybe starting a. business and see if you can do it.

Approach a strange woman and ask her out. for coffee. Try and establish. friendships with people you think are. more impressive than you. Show up to a, you know, to a job you're not qualified. for and apply for a job. Take more risk. offline and less risk online. People are. paying playing are allocating way too. much risk capital on a screen. They're. saying very provocative aggressive. things. They're taking real risks with. the reputation online. They're betting.

on the World Cup. They're betting on. they're day trading. They're taking all. sorts of risks online and yet they don't. want to go out with friends and approach. a strange woman. That's too much risk. So, generally speaking, my advice to. young people, more risk aggressiveness. um offline, bet your time, start a. business with somebody. >> We're going to We have a crazy idea for. business. We're going to risk a lot our. time, some money, public embarrassment. That's a risk, right?

you know, saying mean things about. people, being on Robin Hood or Coinbase. or trading crypto online, those are just. stupid risks. So, I I don't know if you. can tell someone to take more risks. What I would suggest is when you're in. the company of other people and you have. what I call a kitchen cabinet who advise. you, it's very hard to read the label. from inside of the bottle. I don't make. any important decision now without. talking to two or three people. When I. was your age, I used to think that.

leadership and masculinity was make a. quick assessment of the situation and. then make a decision. And what I didn't. realize is that everyone makes bad. decisions. The key is to recognize maybe. it's a bad decision and know when to. step back. Stepping back from the wrong. direction is a step in the right. direction. But I thought it was my job. to convince everyone I was right. I was. more interested in being right than. doing the right thing. And now what I do is any big decision. financial, personal, professional, I.

call at least three people. I describe. the situation in very raw unfiltered. um um. description. and then I ask for their advice and. almost always they look at it and and. and help me understand it in a way I. didn't before. And young people usually. don't do that because to really describe. issues is embarrassing. I'm thinking. about starting a podcast, but I don't. have any money. I'm thinking about I'm.

thinking about breaking up with my. girlfriend, but I'm worried I'm not. going to ever meet anybody again. I'm. thinking I'm worried about moving. I. want to move out of my parents house, but I'm worried about my like these are. embarrassing things. But talking to. people, I'm worried about leaving my job. and starting a business, right? Whatever. it might be, right? But other people who. can say, "Well, ask good questions, smart people, and say, "Oh, you. shouldn't do that. This is why I.

wouldn't do it. It's a bad idea. You're. not thinking it through." Or, "You're. too worried about this. This isn't that. big a deal." So, I think the one of the. best pieces of advice for what I'll call. taking good risks or basically taking. good decisions is establishing a kitchen. cabinet of people. And it's easier than. you think cuz people love to hear. themselves talk. And when you ask. someone for their advice, you're. complimenting them. You're saying, "I. think you're really smart." So, generally speaking, I don't think it's. that hard to kind of pull together what. I call this kitchen cabinet of people. I.

was too stupid to do that. I thought. asking people for help meant that I. wasn't the smartest person in the room. The second point was about social and. >> I love the line where you said if you. want to win you should have a lot of. people who want you to win. >> Mhm. >> Right. You should have a lot of people. who should refer you who should vouch. for you. How do you get a lot of people. vouch for yourself? >> Well the first is I mean one to be good. at what you do. >> you create a reputation. to.

um be social, make friends, ask people. out, go to things, have a have a. tendency to say yes to invitations. Oh, some friends, some people invited me to. dinner or they're doing something. I'd. rather stay home and watch Netflix. Yes. Get out of the house. And then the third. thing is try and build as many. as large a ledger of debts as possible. What do I mean by that? Always be on the.

lookout for how you can help somebody. else. Always. You hear about a job, you. hear about an opportunity, you you go somewhere great, whatever it. might be. Quick note, I I there's, you. know, in the UK there's a program to. help fund entrepreneurs. Have you looked. into this? Here's the link. I looked. into it. It's working for me. Right. Other podcasters. I found that if you. tag the videos in this use these. thumbnails,

my YouTube viewership's up 10%. Reach. out to everybody who knows a podcaster. and say, "FYI, this has been really. helpful to us." You you're hear about. someone who's hiring. Hey, I heard you're looking for a job. So and so did you hear so and so is. hiring. The the opportunity to help. somebody is a gift. Uh because. you know they. at the wonderful thing about young. people is they generally become more. powerful and influential as they get.

older. >> But they're what they're going to. remember is the people who helped them. when they weren't powerful. >> True. >> Right. So the opportunity whenever you. see something good or an opportunity. anywhere if you can't seize it you. should think about who else can seize. it. So you know it just helps to be very. good. It helps uh to be very social, make a lot of contacts with people, establish emotional friendships, and. then three, every opportunity to help. somebody else is like an investment. You.

know, all those Tik Toks that if you. invest $5 a day or $10 a day, from the. age of 18, you're a millionaire by the. time you're my age. It's the same way. making investments in relationships. a. little investment in helping someone out. in 10, 20, 30 years, that person is in a. position of power and they remember that. small gesture you made to them when they. weren't powerful. That compounds just. like investments. >> Pick top three cities where a young. person should be in today's world to.

accumulate maximum amount of wealth. because place makes a lot of difference. >> 100%. I would say get to the biggest. city in your nation. >> But talk about the world. Just top three. cities you would pick if you were 22. today. >> New York, San Francisco, and New York. >> I I just think there's nothing. >> San Francisco, New York, and. >> I was joking. New York. I I think New. York. I don't think there's anything. like the experience and opportunities. you're going to get in New York. And. it's really hard. It's really expensive.

But the crush of people bouncing off. each other creates opportunities. I think um there's still, you know, my. guess is some of the bigger cities in. Asia probably offer a lot of. opportunity. Some of the bigger cities. in the Gulf offer a huge opportunity. I'm speaking personally. I've been. molesting the earth for 35 years. I. spent half my year in other cities. I've. probably spent at least 90 days in 17 of.

the 20 super cities around the world, whether it's Shanghai or Seoul, wherever. it is. My reductive analysis is the. following. The US is the best place to. make money. Europe is the best place to. spend it. So, if you're in the making. money part of your life, I still don't. think there's anything like the US. A. lot of people would argue it's now the. Gulf because of the amount of money. And. I don't feel as knowledgeable, but I. want to acknowledge a lot of smart. people are moving to the Gulf.

But I would say in terms of and again. immigration comes into this. Can you get. into the US? But if you can figure out a. way to get you can be good in the US and. make more money than if you're great in. Europe. It's And by the way, you can be good in. London and make more money than if. you're great in Liverpool. >> I don't buy the small fish in a big pond. thing. get to a big pond as soon as. possible because the competition is more. intense. There's more people. It's more. social. It's a better place to find a.

mate. It's a better place to raise. money. It's a better place to meet. co-founders. It's also much harder. >> You know, when you play on an NFL team, when you go back, you're you're the best. player on the team. So, even typically. most people don't survive long in New. York. Yeah. >> Cuz once you have kids, it's just too. expensive. But you're training with the. Yankees, your training, you know, you're. training with, you know, PSG that your. your game, if you can survive 2, 5, 10.

years in New York, your game is strong. A lot of people would say there's a lot. of opportunity in India right now, but I. don't feel as knowledgeable about it. my. having spent the majority of my life. working in the west I don't think. there's anything like if you're just an. economic animal as I was I don't think. there's anything like the wealth. creation opportunities in the barrier. because of tech and the entrepreneurial. attitude and New York just because of. the level of intensity and competition. and by the way I don't I lived in San.

Francisco 10 years didn't enjoy it but. the wealth creation opportunities there. are immense immense but the the the key. lesson is get to one of 20 super cities. If you type into Google what are the 20. super cities, twothirds of all economic. growth is going to happen in those 20. super cities. >> in some just get to the largest city in. your region. That's where the wealth is. created. >> Yeah. So there are three levels to it if. I want to summarize it. So first is get.

to the biggest city of your nation. That's the first thing you should do. >> Then the second is if you can afford. that then go to the top 20 cities of the. world. >> That's right. If you can afford that. then go to the top two cities in the. world which is probably New York San. Francisco of course and but that's what. like that's what the economics says also. right US is 70% market of the world. >> so it just makes a lot of sense for. anyone to be building something in US. just purely from the basis of economic. opportunities. >> I just look at my let's say I had the.

same relative blessings born in Munich. born in Seoul. born in Los Angeles, I picked the right city to be born in. I. think I still would have been. successful, but I wouldn't have had that. success. >> So, you want to, you know, if you're you. want to get to the It's like what I say. is. when I go when I was younger, I used to. surf and I used to go to I learned how.

to surf in Hawaii and the waves are. perfectly shaped and I thought, I'm good. at this. And then I tried to surf in. California. the waves are not as elegant. and I realize I don't know how to surf. You want to go where the waves are. perfect or the better. It's like if you. are you a skier? >> I've done skiing. Yeah, I know. >> So, you know how when it it's fresh. powder. >> and you're like I'm I'm a great skier. and then you ski on ice. >> and you're like I don't know how to ski. >> You want to get where the powder's good. or the waves are perfect. And that's the. 20 super cities. You're just going to.

have. >> it's more motivating. It's so expensive. that you never want to be at home which. is good. you're out a lot and you're. just gonna bump into more people. I also. think it's a better place to meet a mate. because there's just more people bumping. into each other. >> Do you think. if you want to make it big, like really. big, >> right? >> You still need to go to America that. American dream is still the most. fascinating thing in the world because. that's where you make it big. Truly big. >> No, you can still make it big anywhere.

There's just the probability is greater. in the US. >> Yeah. So, >> I mean, you might get lucky. You might I. [snorts] mean for example a lot of. people are making it big in Dubai. You. know I think a lot of people will find a. lot of economic growth in in Asia. Um I. would say where do you have contacts? Where do you want to live? Where do you. have some where does your industry sort. of fit? Um but again it's just. probability. There'll be really talented. people who, you know, in Napoli who make.

a really good living and figure out the. biggest business in Napoli, whatever, but you just want to be in a place where. quite frankly being a seven on a scale. of 1 to 10 gives you a life better than. being a seven anywhere else. And I have. found so far that that's the US. If you. don't grow, you're you're trying to take. something from someone else. I mean, growth kind of solves all problems. And while the US isn't growing. remarkably well, it's growing. That's. why the Gulf is so exciting that, you.

know, the Gulf is growing. Um, but and. again, I have a bias cuz it's where I. grew up. And there's probably examples. of other places in the world that are. growing. >> Mhm. >> You know, places surprise you, right? >> Yeah. >> They grow faster than you'd think. Like. I remember when Ireland was growing. really fast. You just never know. >> You said three out of four people in. China are excited about AI. They're. optimistic. Same as in India. Three out. of four people in India, more than 76%. people in India are excited and optimist. about AI. And in America, one out of.

four people are just excited. Three out. of four are pessimist about it. >> Does that give higher chance and higher. probability to someone sitting in China. and India to go to America and create. wealth because we are more optimistic? So our brain will start working for more. opportunities then. I don't think it comes down to whether. they're optimistic about AI. I just. think it comes down to their risk. appetite, whether they really want to. get to the US and if they're willing to. take a risk or not. I don't I don't.

think it I don't think. >> But when you go there and you are. optimist about everything, how the. economy is growing and opportunities. which are coming your way versus. somebody who's exactly your age living. in America and is pessimist about the. world. >> Don't you think an optimism optimist guy. has higher probability of winning? >> Yeah, I think that's I think that's. probably true. But keep in mind there. are still a lot of people very. optimistic about AI in terms of. investing their human and financial. capital in the US. If you want to be an. AI, my sense is you want to be in China. or the US right now. If you really think.

you have talent and understanding or. want to desperately be an AI, I mean Nvidia is worth more than every. publicly traded company in Germany and. Spain right now. I mean, think about. that. >> Yeah. Add up every public company in. Germany and Spain and Nvidia is worth. more. So if you want to be an AI, if you. really want to be an AI, what I would. suggest is get to a cool, you know, Alibaba. or, you know, anthropic or a small.

startup. I mean, there are thousands. about half the billboards in the Bay. Area are related to AI. That's how big. AI is right now in the Bay Area. So if. you were saying I just want to be an AI, I would say don't even get to the US, you there might be some pockets in. China, but it's a pretty concentrated. industry right now. I mean there's Mistl. and in France, but most people say it's. not. It doesn't have nearly the IP. Um.

but I I don't I think I think generally. Americans are an optimistic people. They're just very negative on AI because. I think it's seen as a symbol of wealth. inequality. Do you think AI is going to. create more wealth or erode more wealth? >> Oh, I'm an AI optimist. I think it's. going to create more jobs than it. destroys. >> So why everybody's saying that people. are going to lose and wealth is going to. go away? People are just going to be out. of their jobs. >> because. >> and we'll need universal basic income. and all that, >> right? Uh I think it's a fundraising.

tool by the companies themselves in. order. >> storytelling narrative play. In order to. justify these valuations, these technologies have to be. transformative and create shareholder. value. There's two ways to create. shareholder value. Increase revenues or. decrease costs. There isn't a lot of AI. moisturizer out there. This table. doesn't appear to be from AI. I mean, there's some AI here, but not a lot. So, how do you justify a trillion dollar. valuation at anthropic and open AI? You.

say, "Well, if you use our tools, you'll. need three people, not not five.". >> So, the labor destruction narrative was. something preached by the people trying. to raise money for AI companies. >> and I don't so far there's no evidence. of it. Yeah. >> Unemployment rates. I said a year ago I. had a job no mercy no mouse post called. apocalypse no. And that is the job. apocalypse that is supposedly coming. I.

I don't think it's going to happen. There'll be a dip. The question is how. severe is the dip, but with every. technological breakthrough, it's the. same pattern. There's some job. destruction. When automation hit the. auto industry, everyone thought Detroit. is over. The Midwest is over. It'll be. all robots. We won't need humans to make. cars. And there was some short-term job. loss on the factory floor. But we didn't. envision heated seats or car stereoss or. self-driving. And now there are more. people employed in the global automobile.

industry than there was before. automation. So I don't see any reason. why AI isn't similar to every other. technology. And that is in the short run. there'll be some job destruction but. then those profits will be result in. shareholder value which will be. reinvested into new ideas. If you're a if you're a entrepreneur and. you have some technical skills or. business skills, you can now start a. business on $10,000 that may have cost. you 20 years ago 10 million with AI. I.

mean, the opportunities for new. businesses, if you start playing with. AI, I I I think it's almost impossible. not to start thinking of new ideas. So, what have we seen? If you didn't know AI. was here and you were just looking at. the Bureau of Labor and Statistics, you. wouldn't know AI is here. You wouldn't. go something's happening in the economy. You would see no evidence of it. Unemployment's at 4 and a half% in the. US. Youth unemployment has spiked a. little bit and there has been an. increase in unemployment among new.

college grads. I think that's a natural. part of the cycle. But what we also see is that new. business permits are at an all-time. high. M. >> oh, but we don't talk about AI. Well, AI. clearly has something to do with that. >> Yeah. >> So, why are more people starting more. new businesses than ever before? And at. the same time, we don't see this job. apocalypse. And the the the the problem. is is that. if you think of yourself as a thought. leader or someone who talks about these.

issues, there's a bias. And the bias is to catastrophize. Because if you just look at the data. around our economy and you were you just. went where the data and history tells. you this would be every talk I'm g I've. given you know every day things get just. a little bit better. That doesn't no one's going to pay me to. show up and say that. So what is more. interesting and makes you sound smarter. is to talk about an 80% destruction in.

jobs and what does the world look like? Is it idiocracy or is it we all get to. pursue purpose and we know we'll have. robots doing everything. That's a kind. of an interesting scary let's pay this. person a lot of money to come speak at. our annual conference in the summer. So. that bias amongst intellectuals or. thought leaders or authors is to. catastrophize. M. >> And so what you constantly have to ask. yourself, especially for someone like me. who is a glass half empty kind of guy,

you always have to ask yourself, especially in investing, what could go right? Because the people. who have asked themselves what could go. right have been more successful than the. people who have said what could go. wrong. [clears throat]. >> You need to have pessimists. You know, optimists invented the plane, but. pessimists invented seat belts. You need. both. But the optimists have absolutely. beaten the crap out of the pessimists. from a stock market standpoint. The. people who've said, "Oh no, the stock.

market's going to go up." Yeah, there's. problems in the economy, but I mean, oh, I sold all my stocks. The first time. Trump was elected in 2016, and I sold all my stocks and so I. immediately had a capital gain, and I. had to pay 23, actually 35%. on all my gains. And then 6 months. later, the market was up. So I bought. back in. I literally destroyed probably. 40% of my net worth having an emotional.

reaction. The market's going to crash. Well, what. could go right? What could go right? Maybe the market just sees him as pro. business and stocks keep going up and. the economy the economy cares less about. politics than we do. It's kind of a. machine that grinds on. It doesn't know. who's president. I mean, there's some. impact, but. I mean, loosely speaking, if you. surveyed America right now and said, "Who's president?". The I mean, most most people didn't have.

ICE show up to their neighbors. Most. people, you know, maybe they got a tax. cut, maybe they didn't, but most people. wouldn't know. The economy usually just. is like, I'm just going to keep grinding. on. So having an emotional reaction. or or catastrophizing comes very easy to. people who write or intellectuals or. thought leaders and I think you. constantly have to ask yourself what. could go right. >> Interesting. Do you do you think the big. collapse is coming? >> I think we're going to have a serious.

markdown in valuations. >> slowly. It just keep eroding. >> I don't know what the cadence of it is. I don't think it's going to be a. collapse, but when I look at the. valuations of these companies and things. like the K Schiller price equity index. and things like that, it seems to me. that just a rational argument is we're. due for what I'd call a pretty severe. correction. Markets are cyclical. >> They get cheap, they get expensive. They're very expensive right now. >> But.

when guys like me say the market is. expensive, it usually means it's going. to go up more first. So, it's very hard. to time the market. So, the question is, is the market overvalued? Yeah, I. believe so. And if you look at the 10. most valuable companies in the world, they've all had 12-month periods where. they've been down between 40 and 90%. Amazon was down 93% between 99 and 2001. Meta was down 72% in 2022. So, it's just logical these companies. would have a significant period of.

volatility and go down a great deal. But. trying to time that is nearly. impossible. So what's the advice? The. advice is. always be in the market. I think it's. very hard to time the market. Very hard. So always be in the market. But if. you're like me and you believe that the. markets are overvalued, your Kevlar is. diversification. >> Yeah. >> And that is I invest now in European. companies. I invest in non- tech because.

I'm by virtue of my podcast and and and. I started an AI adoption company. I'm. very invested in technology. I mean. technic my one of my podcasts is. basically a technology podcast pivot. So. I'm sort of very invested in tech. I'm. very invested in America. I own the. majority of my net worth is in American. real estate. So what I need to do to. protect is invest in a British aerospace. company. Invest in an Asian technology.

company. Diversification is your. protection. But if you think you can. time the market, Warren Buffett's been has like a third. of a trillion dollars in cash, but he's. had it for several years and he's missed. out on enormous gains. Yeah. >> Because the market looked crazy. overvalued two years ago. So he went all. the cash. Bad move. >> True. >> So it's very hard to predict the. markets. I think the advice to anybody I. would say is uh diversify lowcost index.

funds and more diversification as you. get older. You can go all in on. something. My guess is the majority of. your human and financial capital is. going into this. >> The way you get successful or wealthy as. a young person is concentrated risk. You. go all in on something. >> The way you stay wealthy is through. diversification. And what I didn't learn. when I was your age is I got lucky and I. had a couple hits and I made a lot of. money, but then I doubled down on my. next thing. What I should have done was. taken 80% of it and put it in boring.

stuff. Totally diversified because when. 2000 happened, I was wiped out and I. still didn't learn. Still went back into. all technology, levered up, aggressive. bets, making money, things are great. 08. broke again. And so when I got lucky. again and sold my company in 2017, I said, "No, I'm done." And I started. diversifying like crazy. And I've. probably missed some upside, but I can. sleep much better at night. I, you know, I've been rich three times. What does.

that mean? It means I've gone broke. twice, right? Much less anxiety to. become economically secure once and then. be smarter than I was and start. diversifying. >> True. Here's the last part because a lot. of things that we spoke about [snorts]. is about telling a story which actually. makes the overvalued markets right. You. have to be really charismatic to. convince a lot of people to come work. for you and convince a lot of people to. come invest in you right that's how the.

valuations go up. >> and that was one of the pieces which you. said. >> if you're young and you want to attract. a lot of. >> money in your life and you want to win. >> you need to be charismatic and. convincing. Yeah. >> How can somebody be charismatic and. convincing? >> It's hard to tell someone to be. charismatic. What I would say is. communication and storytelling are the. core competence. If I could give my sons. anything, it would be the ability to be. a good storyteller. >> How? >> I think it starts with uh learning how. to write well. I think if you can write. well,

>> even today, >> yeah, the ability to write well I think. is the cornerstone of communication. I. mean, Jeff Bezos demands uh memos on. every big decision. It just forces you. to think through issues. It forces you. to think about data. It forces you to. think about construction of your. argument. It's writing is really. difficult. I bet less than 2% maybe 1%. of the population can write. Well, I was. a consultant for a strategy consultant. Usually what I would do, I mean I had. 120 people working with me, but what I.

would do is the head of the firm is a. CEO would call me and say, "I have an. important investor letter. Can you write. it?" These guys just didn't know how to. write. They just And the written word is. so powerful. And then if you can write. well, you can articulate or form. thoughts well, I think that's where it. starts. And then there's a variety of. mediums. There's podcasts, there's. speaking in front of large groups, there's one-on-one, there's Tik Tok, there's creator economy, there's videos, there's Twitter, there's threads, there. are so there's posts on LinkedIn, there.

are so many channels to start. communicating. You need to get at least competent in. storytelling. Some people just aren't. very good. They don't like talking. They. don't like But you have to be at a. minimum competent. If you can't. When you read Jeff Bezos 1997 letter to. shareholders, you read the letter and. you're like, "Take my money." You just, "Yeah, it's overvalued. Makes no sense. Take my money." When Alex Karp does a. earnings call walking around his office. live stream going, you know, Palanteer.

overvalued. Take my money. Are you just. They're like, "I don't like him. I don't. like what he's saying. He's much smarter. than me. I'm going to invest. He has. that he has that rz, right? Not everyone's going to be able to do. that. But at a minimum, you have to be. able to stand up in front of a small. group of people and make your points. Whether that's practice, toast masters, whatever it is, but I think it starts.

with writing. And then you need to find. a medium. It might be Twitter. It might. be YouTube. It might be Tik Tok. And commit to. putting out a certain amount of content. every week and building a platform. because unfortunately if you want to be. in your business or my business, the. media business, a big component of it is your social. media following. So I write books. My. advances have gone up almost in lock. step with my social following. that is they [clears throat] know I have.

enough I have enough of a background to. know I will write a competent book. >> Mhm. >> But the reason they think they're. willing to give me a big advance is they. look at my followers and go he's going. to he's going to sell he could put out. crap and he'll sell a certain amount. because he has a big following. So. unfortunately you're at a young age you. want to start figuring out how to tell. stories and then find a medium and build. a following. One of the things the first. assignment of my class at NYU as I say. pick a medium.

it can be anything LinkedIn Twitter. whatever it is right but within by the. end of the class you have to be in the. top 10%. So the top 10% on say threads. might be. you know 17,000 followers. I'll say all. right within 10 weeks you got to get to. 17,000. >> And by the way I don't like saying that. Every time I'm on social media, I want. to shower. I don't enjoy it. >> Yeah. >> I find it performative, mean course.

It's just incredibly important now. So, start writing and then pick a medium and. challenge yourself to build that asset. base. >> Interesting. >> The problem with a lot of young, you. know, or the myth of young people is the. myth of balance. uh if you want to be look I'm not saying. this is the right way. but if you want to be really successful. like you don't want to be in the top 10%. you want to be in the top 0.1%. or. that's your ambition. By the way, that.

that not all people. A lot of people. just want to move to a lowcost. neighborhood, have a nice partner, go to. church, coach little league, make a good. living. They want to work to live. They. don't want to live to work. Guys like. you live to work. You want to you're. you're very ambitious. For those people who are very ambitious, give up on the myth of balance. There's. no such thing. Anyone I know, unless. they were smart enough to be born to. rich parents, has spent 20 or 30 years. doing pretty much nothing else but. working. From the age of 24 to kind of.

50 for a quarter century, I did nothing but work. I don't remember. my kids as little kids, and I'm. embarrassed by that. Um, it cost me my. hair. It cost me my first marriage and. it was worth it because now I have a ton. of balance. >> Yeah. >> So when you're young, what I would say. is you have to have an honest. conversation. Where do you want to be on. the spectrum in terms of economic.

security and influence and recognize it. comes at a cost. And when people the the conflict in my. kids, when I say my kids, my students, the majority of them expect to be in the. top 1% within five years. And then. they'll say in their priorities balance, right? No, there's no balance. If you. think about the most successful. companies in the world, whether it's. Goldman Sachs. or or you know, YouTube or Anthropic,

basically, they don't say this out loud, but basically the agreement is the. following. We own your ass. You're not. going to kayak on weekends. You're not. going to have stable relationship. You're not going to be in great shape. You're not going to have mental health. breaks. You're going to work your ass. off here. >> Yeah. >> Now, if you're willing to do that and. you're reasonably talented, by the time you're 30, you're going to. be making more money than your parents. ever did. And by the way, there are.

millions of young people who will sign. up for that. >> True. >> And there are a lot of people who won't. So, but at least be honest with. yourself. I I have to have balance. Okay, then move to St. Louis. You can't live in Brooklyn. You can't. afford a $5,000 one-bedroom and have. balance at 25. I mean, there's probably. some people that are such geniuses they. can do that. Beyonce works her ass off. >> True. >> I mean, so I.

just decide where you want to be on the. spectrum and be honest about the. tradeoffs and then you pick where you. want to be on the curve. >> True. I I believe in this. I believe. that cost of ambition is missing out on. privileges of life. >> Oh yes. Huge sacrifices. >> Yeah. >> Hu huge toll on you personally. But also. we talked a little bit one of the words. I should have used was resilience. >> Mhm.

>> Most successful people from the outside. people think their life was like this. What it was was like this. >> always. >> And the key is not here. The key is. here. What happens here? I have a lot of. friends who were very successful in. their 20s and 30s and then they hit a. speed bump. They get fired. They start a. hedge fund that doesn't go well and they. can't recover. They're stuck. They keep. waiting for the bigger opportunity. They. wallow in their self-pity or it impacts.

their relationships. The key is do these people not lose. their sense of enthusiasm? Right? People. will say, "What's the secret to your. success?" Secret to my success is. rejection. I don't know. In the US, we. have what's called student body. elections. We have 10th grade president, 11th grade president, 12th grade, and. then student body president. I ran for. 10th grade president, lost. I ran for. 11th grade president, lost. I ran for. 12th grade president, lost. And the. thing I'm most proud of is based on my. track record, I decided to run for.

student body president where I went on. to lose. And it never I was. disappointed. I was upset for about 24 hours and then. I was back running for something else. That's the key. The key is can you get. beaned in the face and then you know. shake it off, mourn for a little bit and. then step right back to the plate. knowing you got might get beaned in the. face again. And most people don't have. that resilience. Most people if they.

have the public failure of a company. I. started an e-commerce incubator that was. out of business in eight months. I had. the best investors media within like six. months. [snorts]. Very embarrassing. Very embarrassing. articles about, you know, internet. entrepreneur flames out, right? Very. embarrassing. But here's the thing. No. one cares. >> Yeah. >> People aren't thinking about you as much. as you are. They don't care. they go, "Oh, you know, Scott failed or Raj's.

podcast didn't didn't work out." And. then they go back to thinking about. themselves. So, it's the ability to. mourn and move on is key because very. few people have a straight line up. Everyone, the only thing I can promise. you is a certain amount of success and a. certain amount of failure. And the only. way you get to success is by getting. through the failures without losing your. sense of enthusiasm. When were you most. anxious in your life? >> When I had kids. Because when I was your age, I thought,

well, I can sleep on a couch. I can I. got through my junior year of college. eating ramen and Top Ramen and bananas. I was spending like $70 a month. I mean, literally, I was spending no money. >> Okay, >> I was fine. It was just me. I didn't I. didn't need money. I used to cut out. these coupons. >> and, you know, go eat steak and Malibu. chicken at this terrible restaurant. called the Sizzler and it was $4.99 for. all you can eat. So, I would go at 2:00. and eat lunch and wait 2 hours in the.

restaurant and then eat again. I didn't, but that was just me. When I had kids, it's like, oh no, I'm no longer It's no. longer just me. I have to take care of. this thing. And unfortunately, my son, my oldest, had the poor judgment to come. marching out on my girlfriend in '08, right after the financial crash, and I. was broke. And so, I felt a sense of. anxiety and shame that I had not only. screwed up for me. I can handle that. I'm talented. I work hard. I can always. make a living. But I felt like I'd.

already screwed up for this kid. Like, I. already had these weird feelings that. I'd failed as a I mean, I I don't like. this is embarrassing. you're supposed to. have bright lights and angels speak, you. know, singing and the happiest moment of. your life with your baby. All I felt was. shame. I'm like, oh my god, I failed. this kid. That was my first sensation. when I my my son's first or my first son. came along was, oh, I I've I've already. failed this kid cuz I take my. professional success, it's my identity.

I get it's pathetic, but that's where. I've gotten the majority of my self. worth. I now get it through other. things, [clears throat] but before I had. kids, that was my entire professional. identity. So all of a sudden, God really. does reach into your soul and flip a. switch and all of a sudden you care. about for the first time you care about. something else more than you care about. yourself. So it was not only the the. anxiety of not being able of having my. own personal failure. I can handle. [clears throat] that, [snorts] but.

feeling as if I've failed this kid who. I'm responsible for. That made me. incredibly anxious. >> And when you feel anxious and power. powerless today, how do you get back. power over your life now? Because I'm. sure you must have seen so many anxious. moments after that. >> Yeah, I I try to Well, one, I I do. struggle sometimes with anxiety and. depression and anger. I have a I have a uh uh.

a system for getting out of it and I. call it um scappa s c a pa. So s. is um I try to be um so s is sweat. I. try to work out a lot. I find that it. resets my brain and makes me feel better. about myself. Just exercise. And when I. get depressed or anxious, I find I don't. want to exercise, but I find it's really. important. Um, uh, C, uh, clean. I try.

and eat really clean. Less sodium, uh, less eating out. Just try and eat. clean. [snorts] A, abstinence. Abstinence from alcohol, it enhances my. life. But when I feel myself getting. depressed or really like going into a. dark place, I just cut the substances. out. Um, B, >> uh, I'm sorry, F, scaffa, and then F, family. I find hanging out with my boys. is very restorative to me because.

they're so demanding and such jerks that. I can't think about myself. They take my. mind. They demand that I'm focused on. them, which is good. When you're. depressed, you don't have less time to. think about why you're upset. You're. focused on and then a [clears throat]. for me is affection. And that is, you know, I'll tell my boys. I'm not feeling great and they know what. to do. They'll like throw my and we'll. watch football game. My oldest is. something really nice for me. We watched. World Cup Sweden versus France last. night. He just kind of naturally throws. his legs on mine. We're on the couch. I.

let the dogs up on the couch and I let. them lay on me. I think we're mammals. and for me kind of human touch is really. restorative for me. So, if I do all of. those things, it helps arrest the. downward spiral. But what I would. suggest is that people ask themselves. that same question. and see what works for me and what kind. of stops the downward spiral because it. may be different things. Also, I just. think in general being around other.

people, I think isolation can be really. uh can really expedite the downward. spiral. Having too much time to be in. your own head and then, you know, some. people really benefit from therapy. I. think it's individual. Those are the. things I've as soon as I feel myself. getting angry and I can tell when I'm. getting down, I start thinking about. really dark imagery. I start thinking. about the Holocaust and I start I start. roleplaying confrontations with people I. don't even know. I I I have these. triggers, these signals like, "Oh no, I'm going to a dark place." And so I.

immediately try and stop it by doing. those things and get back to a good. place. >> But I love this caffa framework. I think. it's really interesting and there are. tools. maybe not all but there are few if. somebody's able to do I think it'll will. help a lot. >> I hope so. >> Yeah. Scaff I I like it. [snorts]. >> So here's the last question which is. what cost did you pay to become Scott. Gallagher? Well,

it cost me a a decent amount of. life. Like you said, it there were a lot. of things I could have done that would. have been a lot of fun in my 20s and 30s. that I didn't do. I took vacations with. clients. I didn't take vacations with. friends. I was working all the time. I. could have been a better husband to my. first wife. um. something I wish I'd done. I wish I'd.

been kinder. I was never mean, but I saw. my employees and relationships as. transactions where I wanted to get when. an employee got off the elevator in one. of my companies when I was young. There. was two bubbles. How much I'm paying. them, how much value they're adding. The. moment this bubble got bigger than this. one, they got a warning and then they. were out. My friends, am I getting more from this. friendship than I'm giving? my. girlfriends. Am I getting more out of it. than I'm Everything was a capitalist. mindset. I want an ROI on everything.

>> transaction. >> 100%. And what you recognize as you get. older now when I have a company, I like. to think I would say we like to hire two. or three people that are two bad. decisions away from living in their car. That's okay. Overpay people. If you're in a position. like I am now to overpay people, I'm. doing a lot of virtue signaling. Overpay. them. That's great. My goal is to pay. people 50% more than market because now. I can and it makes me feel good. I want.

to be a I'm not never I'm not I don't. take abuse, but I want to be a better. friend than they are. I want to be I. want people to look back and think. there's no way I could be as good a. friend to him as he was to me. Right? I. want my partner to think I couldn't have. had a nicer life with anybody else. I. want my kids to think there is no way I. will ever be able to pay back my father. No way. Impossible. No matter how nice. the home is we put him in, there's no. way we can ever pay him back. That's.

winning. And when you're younger, you. think winning is getting more from other. people than you get. So, I wish I'd had. more of a an investment mindset when I. was young and trying striving so hard to. be successful. You naturally go to this. transactional mindset. where quite frankly, you're just not. that kind. and you miss the shooting match. The way. you feel masculine, the way you feel.

successful is you're successful, but you share a disproportionate amount. of that success. That feels really good. That's success. And I was way too. transactional with my relationships. when I was younger. And I think it just. cost me an opportunity to enjoy myself. more, have better relationships, be more mentally healthy, feel better. about myself. Yeah, I regret that. I should have I. should have approached.

life from more of a generosity mindset. versus a transactional mindset. I think. I really screwed up there. >> I really appreciate this answer. Thank. you for sharing it with me. You know, but a good thing is a lot of Indian. family bonds will relate with me. because you're born in an Indian family. you from day one you learn. investing in relationships and you see. it as compounding not transactions. So I. think that has worked in my favor even.

I'm like just like you super ambitious. doing a lot of things at the same time. >> but I don't see anything as transaction. because I think my parents and people. around me I've seen them when I was. growing up just investing in. relationships and just being there for. people that overall in life compounded. So it has become like my value system. >> and that is really helping me. So it. never even occurred to me that okay you. know what I should do this because I'm. going to get this from this person and.

we just naturally go out and keep. helping and helping and helping without. expecting anything in in return and I. think it has a lot to do with Indian. traditional family system. The thing I. took from the Indian culture, this is. just a side note, the biggest impact, well, one, I'm at a business school. My. best friends are all Indian. I mean the. the the the quality of the people of the. immigrants from India and academia like. literally the smartest people at the. business school have multiconsonant last.

names you know deodoran sund ramen or I. mean just. >> we have we have this wonderful import. from India in terms of academics but the. weird thing I took from Indian culture. was when and this is one of the biggest. regrets I had with my oldest he used to. come into our bedroom when he was a a. baby and he wanted to sleep with us and. we read in some stupid journal you're. not supposed to let your kid sleep with. you. So we would walk him back to his. room and I hated it. It was so painful.

and he used to show up with a basket of. cars like an offering like if you let me. sleep with you guys I'll give you this. basket of cars you know in the morning. and we'd say no. And then I read that a. big a big uh feature of Indian culture. is co-sleeping. >> Mhm. And I said, 'They get it. We don't. And from the age of like one and a half. or two, I let Alec, our oldest, we put. him in his own bed at night. If he gets. up in the middle of night, we walk him. back once cuz he's just he was. sleepwalking. But in the morning, we let.

him come in and sleep with us. And it. was one of the best things I ever did as. an adult. One of the best things I ever. did as a grown man was co-sleeping with. my kids. And one of the biggest mistakes. I made was not letting our oldest uh. co-sleep with us when he was uh you know. when he was really young. Anyways, an. odd thing. That's what I took from. Indian culture. >> It's it's a good thing. It's not weird. at all. But thank you so much for. spending time with me. I know you're. short on time. >> I believe this will reach a lot of.

people and get you the kind of results. which probably is worth spending time in. so that we could keep doing this more. often. I hope so. [snorts]. Congratulations on your success, Raj. >> Thank you so much. Means a lot. Thank. you. Thank you for watching this episode. till the end. We would love to know what. you liked or disliked about this episode. and which guests you would like to see. on the show. Let us know in the. comments. Your feedback help us improve. and make every episode a little better. I'll see you next time. Until then, keep.

figuring out.