Memory Scientist: The Science Of Building A Sharper Memory | Nikolay Kukushkin | FO571 Raj Shamani

Why do I remember certain things from 15. years ago, but I don't remember. something from last week? >> We like to think that our memory is like. a camera. It just takes a photo and. stores it on the hard drive. That's. really not how memory works. So, I'm. going to show you my credit card number. >> What do you remember? >> Last four digits. >> You're like most people, you probably. remember the beginning, but almost. nobody remembers the middle. This is. called the primacy and recency effect. You remember beginnings because they are. first and you remember the endings.

because they are the most recent thing. that you've read. And almost nobody. cares [music] about the middles. It. already shows you that our memory, it. remembers things that are relevant to. you for specific reasons why your brain. might pay attention to them. >> You're one of the top memory scientists. You study brains and minds. How can I. learn to forget bad things easily? Most. things in our brain fade over [music]. time and most things that we hold on to. we recreate. So I think the number one.

advice is step out of the recreation and. allow forgetting. Don't talk about it. If you're talking about it, you are. recreating that memory. And the best. that you can do is focus your attention. somewhere else. That will naturally let. that memory fade away. >> Tell me what's worse. No dopamine or a. lot of dopamine. [music]. >> No dopamine at all is much worse. Craving things is what makes you. excited. lower dopamine person will uh. tend to have less motivation but also be. less neurotic than a person with with.

more dopamine. >> Evolution has designed me in a way that. I'll always be unsatisfied. >> Evolution really doesn't care about how. you feel about yourself. It cares about. your survival. The ones who always seek. more, they survive better than those who. are satisfied with whatever they have. No matter what it is, the moment we get. there, there'll be something else. That's just how we're wired. Yeah, we. need to accept that as a fact and just. ride that ladder. [music]. >> Why can't I remember. >> being a baby?

>> And I asked so many people this question. and they don't remember how they were as. babies. Why? >> I have a small favor to ask you. I need. you to subscribe to our channel. The. more subscribers we have, the better and. bigger guests we can bring and provide. you more value through these. conversations. And the full audio. experience of this show is also. available on Spotify where you can. follow us and listen to the new episodes. as well. You are losing money without.

even realizing it. And one of the places. where it happens the most is when you're. shopping online. Your brain doesn't. really know what anything is worth. It. just picks the first number it sees and. judges everything from there. Like when. you see something marked for 2,000. rupees and now selling for 500, that 500. in comparison to the 2,000 feels like a. steal. But that 2,000 can be completely. made up. A lot of times some sellers. push the price up right before the sale,

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price. so you know right away if the. discount is real and if it's not the. lowest yet. You can even set an alert. and Flip Shop will notify you as soon as. the price drops. So you end up buying. things at the actual lowest price that. one habit alone saves you more money. than you realize. To download Flip Shop, check the link in the description below. You're one of the top memory scientists.

You study brains and minds. You study. evolution. You have studied so many. different species brain and mind and how. memories get formed. So you understand. at this point what are we thinking? How. are we thinking and how do we remember. things much better than probably most of. the people right? >> Welcome on figuring out Nikolai. Kakushkin. It's an honor to have you. If. somebody's watching you for the first. time and they have no clue what you do,

they they don't understand what memory. scientist is, how would you explain them. what you do and why should they watch. this podcast for next couple of hours? Well, uh, I like to call myself a. molecular philosopher, which sounds like. a joke, but I say this because those are. the two extremes of. brain, life on Earth, reality that I'm. interested in. I'm interested in the. smallest material components of what.

makes us ourselves. And I'm interested. in the biggest, most abstract, most. philosophical things like memory, consciousness, motivation. What I'm most. interested in is how one transitions. into another. And that is what I study. in the lab. I want to understand how the. smallest most basic components of living. matter, molecules, cells. create.

those features of our mind that we. consider almost magical like memory and. consciousness. >> Nice. And if somebody's watching this. podcast and they're going to finish it, what are they going to learn? >> Well, I think what they might learn is. how we think, what motivates us to do the things that. we do, what decides, what memories we retain, and what.

memories we discard. And I hope that it gives them a more. peaceful way to live with themselves by. recognizing. which parts of our human nature. we can't change and what we need to do. to. have a peaceful relationship with them. >> Tell me, can I force my brain to change?

Well, anytime we're learning something, we're forcing our brain to change. That's what plasticity is. You are. forcing new information into that brain. I think what you are asking is, can you. force your brain to remember things. better. >> or can I force my brain to become a. different person? >> Well, again, [clears throat] there is no. such thing as repetition. If you're repeating something, you've. already modified it. >> What do you mean by that? Any new.

experience. is written over a new brain. Anytime. you've experienced something, you've. changed something in your brain. People. are worried about this or that changes. my brain. They think of that as. something bad or in this case it's. something that you want. But there is no. avoiding that. You're constantly. changing. Every experience that you're. encountering changes your brain. And not. just your brain. Your entire body. changes. That's what my work shows that. actually the kind of mechanisms that our.

brain cells use to register events that. are happening to them, those same. mechanisms work in every cell of the. body. Kidney cells are registering. kidney things. Gut cells are registering. gut things. Brain cells are registering. brain things. So there is no way that. you can avoid changing who you are and. what your body is. The question is how. do you route it where you want it to go? You can't stop this process. You can.

only trim it, direct it, adjust it, work. with it like with a garden. But wait, you just said two things right now and. they both are very contradictory in my. brain to first is you said every time. even if I'm remembering the same thing. it's new. It's not the same thing. It's. not repetition. There's nothing like. repetition. Is that what you're saying? >> You're repeating it.

but it's not the exact same thing as. what happened before. This is the phrase by I believe um. Russian physiologist Vugodski, repetition without repetition. When. you're learning a skill, every time. you're repeating it, you think that. you're repeating it. By by the time. you've repeated it, your body has. already changed, your muscles have. changed, your brain has changed, and. you're adding onto that change. You're. solidifying that change. You are. directing that change. You're. restricting possible movements. When.

you're learning a skill, for example, the first thing you need to do is block. out the movements that don't lead you to. that productive action that you are. trying to achieve. First, you you block. that out. You restrict the paths that. lead to that action and then you. optimize what are the movements that. might lead to it. But every time you're. practicing that skill, your brain adds a. little layer of learning. There is just. no avoiding that. If I meet you today. and we we we hug each other, we shake.

hands and then we do this one week later. and then 3 weeks later and then one. month later. Every time that handshake. is different, >> of course. Well, the next time you will. remember me, we'll be better friends. And so that will probably cause a. different emotion than what happens the. first time we meet. And then the third. time, well, maybe you'll be bored of me. and that will be that will be another. emotion yet. And then maybe by the. fourth time maybe we won't see each. other for a while and then it'll be like. meeting an old friend. Every experience.

is different. Even though it doesn't. seem like this to us, it's very hard to. believe that you are a different person. because we inhabit this body. We we we. look at from these same eyes into the. mirror. We see this object with the face. with the hair and we think that it's. static. We think that it's the same. thing as it was yesterday. But that's. just not true. We're different every day. and every minute and every. >> When did you find this that there's. nothing like repetition? Because. as someone who loves practicing a.

certain craft or actually becoming. better, my whole brain and my everything. in my practice just goes like, okay, if. I repeat something for n number of. times, I'm going to get better. Mhm. >> So I'm I'm repeating the way I talk, the. way I'm breathing, the way I do a. certain exercise, the way I'm actually. writing. Everything I'm repeating and. that's the concept that repetition makes. you better. And you're saying there's. nothing like repetition because.

you're a different person. So when did. you find this out? It makes sense. though, whatever you're saying. >> Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that. there's no point repeating anything. No, repeating something is the shest way to. get better at something, to learn. something. That's the pattern that tells. our brain that something is important. Really, our brains memorize important. things and repeated things. And if you. want to memorize something that your. brain doesn't naturally think is. important, the way to convince it that. it's important is to repeat. All I'm.

saying is that in order for this. repetition to work, the first event, the first repeat has to. modify something. >> in your brain, in your body that has to. carry over to the second repeat. And. that second repeat has to land on that. Somehow your neurons, your body, your. cells need to know that it's not just. one more. It's not just an isolated. event, but it's again. It's something.

that's layered on top of a previous. repeat. And that's been my long-standing. interest. And how does a neuron know. what is again? >> Yeah. >> What is retained that is not the memory. itself, but something else that is. retained within that cell? Because we. see it in single cells in a petri dish. What is it that is retained in that cell. that then plays out when the second. event lands to cause something that the. first event didn't? How do we get from 1.

+ 1 + 1 + 1 and that doesn't equal four. but it equals more than four? That's the. real question about this again versus. not again repetition versus not. repetition. >> Explain me how and why. Well, um, for. example, uh, in one of our studies, we. showed that there are two molecules. inside of a neuron that, u cancel each. other out, that interplay with one. another, and you activate those.

molecules to a different extent. depending on the strength of the. stimulus. And depending on how much you. activate them, their activities remain. in the cell for a long time or a short. time and one of them wins over or. another one wins over. It's a fine dance. between these two molecules. And what it. means in practice is that if you. stimulate that neuron in an escalating. pattern, if you if the repeats become. stronger every time, then those.

molecules play out in such a way that. the activating one will eventually win. over and the memory will form. If you do. the opposite, if the repeats wayne, if. the first one is the strongest and it. goes weaker, weaker, weaker, weaker, then the deactivating one ends up. winning and no memory is formed. And. that makes total sense because anything. in nature that escalates, well, it's more important than anything. that waines. >> and you have to prioritize. You can't. remember everything. You have to choose. what to remember. And that's what really.

memory is about. It's not just storing, piling information into your brain. It's. prioritizing. It's recognizing patterns. It's selecting patterns that are. relevant and escalation is a more. relevant pattern than um dissipation or. or waning. So that's an example. You. have this dance of these two molecules. and that is what retains the trace of of. repetition and determines what kind of. pattern you will remember or not. remember. >> Interesting. So how can I actually train.

my brain and every cell to remember. the good things, the positive habits, the things which are which are difficult. to do and not the bad things because my. body automatically remembers the bad. thing even though if I've done one time. it just remembers it somehow. But the. good things it doesn't. >> Well, first of all, I bet that in your. case and in my case, there's plenty of. bad things that we simply don't remember. about. And that's why it seems that they.

never happened. But what I always find. is that bad memories actually fade a lot. faster than than good memories. That's. what keeps me sane when I'm traveling. somewhere and I have all these stressful. experiences and that might be stressful. in the moment, but I know that. eventually. >> that will fade and what I will remember. is the good things and that gives me. that gives me comfort. >> So how do you make that happen. artificially? Well, I think that there is no trick to.

remember good things or bad things. The. trick is to um to perceive the right. things to to filter through your brain. what you want to remember, how you want. to remember it and in the frame that you. want to remember it. I don't think we. talk enough about mental hygiene. Uh we. understand that there are certain. healthy habits that we have to apply to. our body. You know, you don't need to. wash your hands. you don't eat too much. junk food. Uh you have to eat plenty of. fiber, drink water. We're all familiar.

with these ideas that mainstream it's. indisputable. Yeah. >> But there's a lot less discussion of. doing the same thing with your mind. We're consuming a lot of mental junk. food. >> and it seems that it just disappears and. it doesn't do anything. And you know, one day it's here and another day it's. gone. But it's not. Everything that. we're consuming mentally or physically. leaves a trace. So in order to ensure. that long-term your memories are healthy. and happy and point you to the right.

direction, you have to tend to your. brain like a garden. I'm I'm going to. keep repeating that line because that's. really how I think. We we like to think. that everything in our memory just. happens in one moment. that you you you. can dump some memory into it and it gets. stored in there and and that's what it. is. But memory is a constructive. process. It evolves. It changes. depending on on who you are and and how. you think. So memory is constructive.

It's uh what you project onto it. There. are famous studies into false memories. for example. Maybe you've heard about. the 911 uh study. This was the one case where you could. track a memory across large populations. of people because everybody had. experienced everybody who was alive at. that point experienced 9/11. And they. all formed what's called a flashbulb. memory. Something that you can vividly. recall and you're 100% certain in in in.

what it looks like where you were. I I. have that image. So researchers. talked to people a day after the event. and a week, a month, and about a year. afterwards. And they interviewed them. about that same memory. And they tracked. how much it changed and how much. confidence people have in that memory. And what turned out is that the. confidence stays exactly the same. For. this flashb memory, you ask a person and. they say, "I'm sure. Yeah, this is. exactly what happened. It's right in. front of my eyes." But the details that.

they recall from that memory um a third. of them disappears by by a month and. even more by by a year. I'm not exactly. sure of the exact numbers but that's the. scale of it. So what does that mean? It. means that there's a disconnect between. what we perceive to be the accuracy of a. memory and what it actually is. Anytime. you are recalling a memory, you are. rewriting that memory and it becomes a. little bit your imagination. And every.

time you keep doing that, this. imagination is introduced into the. memory more and more and more. And you. don't feel that you you you don't know. that something has changed about your. memory. >> So think about that and and and think. about everything else that you remember. about your past, your entire. autobiography. We have no idea how much of this. actually is true. It's a confabulation. in a large part. It's a story that we. keep telling ourselves. >> So you're telling that half of the.

things or more than half of the things. that I remember about myself or the past. version of myself or a certain. experience that I've gone through, it's. all my imagination. It never happened. >> It might be if you are like most people. then it probably is. And I think it's. fascinating that. we as a society now have ways of. checking. you know, we have uh writing, >> we have photography, we have the. internet, but go back a few thousand.

years ago and that just wasn't a. reality. There wasn't a way to check uh. whether or not your memory is true or. not. And so, history moved in at a much. faster pace. Without writing, uh. everything changes within a generation. All the shared memories basically are. replaced with uh with imagination. So. it's very difficult to um to go back in. time to even today to societies to. cultures that don't have writing and.

think about the past. >> Like are there certain things that. people make up more versus certain. things that people don't. >> make up [clears throat] more? Like there. are there probably certain experiences. where there's more accuracy in. remembering and there is there are. certain events where majority of people. are just imagining things up. Well, so. the same 911 study also tracked everyday. memories, just your regular memory of. what happened uh today. And what they.

found was that actually the rate at. which this flash bulb memory, the 9/11. salient memory, I imagine it just as it. was, the rate at which it decayed was. exactly the same as the rate at which. everyday memories decay. It's actually. really remarkable how how closely they. they tracked each other. What was. different is the impression that people. have about the accuracy of the memory. So I think it is likely that most of our. memory dissipates at a more or less even.

pace and what is different than our. imagination is how much accuracy how. much confidence we attribute to to this. memory or that memory. That being said, um, for example, there's a well. well-known literature on the fact that. you forget things faster. if the task is complete. If you decide. for yourself that I'm done with this, I. no longer need to remember this. Even if.

you really want to remember it, but if. your brain decides that the task is. over, the memor is gone. I experience. this all the time with my students. I. think that I've trained myself to. remember student names fairly well. I. usually have three sections of 25. students, so 75 people per semester. It's a pretty sizable memory task to to. remember, but I know that in two three. classes uh all of their faces will. become salient. I will uh attribute all. the all the names. uh embarrassingly.

enough it is a little bit slower for. students from other cultures which I. think everybody experiences but it will. happen but then when I'm done with the. semester. it's gone and I want to remember all my. students I want to remember their names. when I see them in the street but it's. it's almost like a wall that I'm hitting. what's especially interesting to me. that's unrelated that when I see a. student later on in the street and I. think oh I lost the name I don't. remember it I will think about it and. I'll think about and I'll think about it.

and then it will pop back in. What I'm. most interested in, and I really don't. know the answer to this, is what is. happening in my neurons. when I'm doing this. that later, sometimes an hours after. that will cause them to and produce that. memory. That's what I'm really deeply. interested. >> And you don't have an answer for that. >> I don't have an answer. My guess is that. there are some biochemistry, some genes.

are getting turned on, some proteins are. getting produced. What's fascinating to. me is that it takes time. It doesn't. happen instantly. It doesn't happen in. that moment when I'm straining. It's not. like something breaks through a wall in. that moment. It's some slow process that. requires time to fully unfold and then. it just delivers that memory to me as if. it was always there. That is just. magical to me and I I I wish that I. understood exactly what was going on. >> Is there a trick to remember everyone's. name when you meet them?

>> A lot of people use a technique called. memory palace. All the people who. competitively memorize something. There. are real. >> competitors out there, people who do. this for a living. Uh they pretty much. all of them use this technique called. memory palace. >> What is that? Uh it was actually. invented by ancient Greeks, ancient. Greek philosophers who put a lot of. emphasis onto memorizing. It's. interesting. We think of the internet. and AI as things that we outsource our. mind to and that makes us dumber. They. thought of writing the same way. If.

you're writing things down, you're not a. you're not a proper Greek philosopher. You got to be memorizing things. So they. put a lot of value onto it. So what it. is is basically creating a visual. visual scaffold for your memory. You. have to cultivate it. You have to work. on it for a while. You have to imagine. this elaborate space like a palace or. castle or just a big room or something. with closets and a cupboards and corners. and objects.

And then when you're trying to remember. something, you are mentally placing that. into a particular shelf or or cupboard. or onto an object or somehow visually. placing that in that uh in that memory. palace. And that just associating this. new information with something that you. already have in your brain that helps. you tie it to to your existing mental. model cuz that's really how we add new.

information to the brain. We like to think that memory is just. this hard drive to which we can dump. anything and it wouldn't matter. That's. how we deal with computers. A computer. doesn't care what kind of file you place. on the hard drive. But we need to think about our own. memory not so much as a hard drive as. much as modifying the thinking paths, modifying the thinking machine. That's. what our memory is. And so it is a lot. more efficient if you're modifying. something that's already there rather.

than just trying to add something that's. completely irrelevant to to anything. else in your life. If you can find some. association, it doesn't need to be. anything smart, just some visual or or. or auditory association between a name, something else that it reminds you of, uh, put that into a corner of that. memory palace and then remember to get. back to it whenever you see that person. again. That will that will improve your. memory. Yeah, that's I'm I'm just. thinking about the things that I do.

every time I meet a new person. especially let's say in my team and. there are like hundreds of people and. it's very difficult to remember. everyone's name because you don't meet. them on an everyday basis and. whoever I meet if I know their hometown. then I immediately associate that person. from that particular town and I remember. their names. >> That's exactly right. you're. constructing a a tiny memory palace by. simply doing that. You know, it doesn't. have to be a physical space. Uh I have a.

big memory palace for biology. You know, I already have a lot of base for that. So, it's easy for me to read a paper and. just attach it to to what's already. there. I can't do that with music. A. musician would hear a melody and would. parse it in in ways that would make. sense to them and attach it to their uh. model, to their memory palace. by. thinking through those details that you. associate with a name. You are you're. you're growing that name deeper into. your brain and that makes sense that it. would be easier to recall. >> Interesting. It makes sense. But there.

are some people who remember bad. memories. >> and they can't move away or like just. move on from those bad memories. >> Why some people remember bad memories. more than good memories? Is there a. reason? Well, our ability to memorize is. separate from our ability to forget. And both of them. can be at different levels. And the temptation is to assume that the.

important one is the remembering and the. less important one is the. [clears throat] forgetting that we want. to remember as much as possible. Uh and. we want we don't want to forget. anything. But your example illustrates. that forgetting is is just as important. is just as much a part of this this. process of learning. Um an even more. vivid example is people with um. photographic memory with extreme memory. It's very rare. But there are cases. described in literature of people who.

have this astonishing memory that is. impossible to even imagine for us normal. people where there's one famous one in. in Soviet science. or Mr. S as he's known in in English. Uh. Mr. S had the kind of memory that you. could read him a foreign language divine. comedy in Italian. He didn't speak. Italian, but you would read him divine. comment in Italian unprompted. You don't. tell him to do anything. Years later, he.

would recite entire entire pages of that. or mathematical equations, just numbers, pages of numbers. He would be able to to. recall that from uh from memory. And uh. a lot of us might think, great, that's. what I want. That's amazing. I I don't I. will never forget anything. But it. wasn't a gift. it was a disability. because his life was basically. unlivable. Um, everything that happened to him.

ignited this explosion of associations. He couldn't focus on anything because. everything caused anything. Anything. that he tasted tasted like everything. that he had ever tasted. It all came. into these different uh every kind of. food that he's ever put in his mouth. He. couldn't understand. anything metaphorical. because a metaphor is an abstraction. You need to remove yourself from. specifics. You need to see a big.

picture. You need to see a. generalization. He couldn't do that. He. remembered everything specific. But he. couldn't abstract himself because that. requires forgetting. >> Yeah. He had trouble remembering. people. because he remembered how their face. looked from this side, how their face. looked from this side, but he couldn't. compile that into this generalized image. of this is that person. He remembered.

each side of their face separately and. it was very hard for him to compress. that into a knowledge of of an. individual person. So that kind of life. where you remember everything it is far. from from from from pleasant. We need to. forget as much as we need to remember uh. to maintain sanity so that we forget the. bad memories like you said but also so. that we could think so so that we could. process uh reality in real time so that.

we could see patterns in it rather than. just specifics. How can I learn to. forget bad things easily? >> Well, most things in our brain fade over time. and most things that we hold on to, we. recreate. So, I think the number one advice is. step out of the recreation and allow the. forgetting to take its course. Um, you. know, even addiction, addiction is a. form of memory. uh whether it's.

addiction to to a drug or addiction to. social media, it's a memory that we. decided is bad for us. Really, there is. no line that separates addiction from. non-addiction except a doctor says. that's really a problem for you and you. should not do it. >> Um so, how do we get rid of it? Well, social media is probably the easier. example. Um, but if you step away from. it, yeah, it's going to be hard for for.

a few days. But the dopamine system that. draws you into it, it gets recalibrated. and on a scale of days, a couple of. weeks, and well, maybe you won't return. exactly to the baseline where you were. without knowing what social media were, but you will get most of the way there, and your brain will recalibrate, and you. will be able to perceive the same social. media freshly and see them in a in a. different light. So I think that applies. to most memories.

You need to find a way. in which you yourself don't bring that. back. Refocus on something else. Um. don't talk about it. If you're talking. about it, you are recreating that memory. in your own mind. You you you think that. you're talking it through. And in some. cases that's important. If the memory is. unresolved or there's something about it. that still occupies your your mind, if. that's the case, if it tries to resolve.

itself, find the solution and you can't. quite find it, then it will be there. until you find the solution. Then you do. want to talk through it. But if it's. purely something that was a bad. experience that you don't want to hold. on to, then talking about it won't help. And the best that you can do is focus. your attention somewhere else. Occupy. your brain with a different task. find. something that's totally different that. will make you forget about it. Go and. travel for a couple of weeks and that. will naturally.

let that memory fade away. So, I think. the thing to remember is that everything. is always in flux. >> It's not just sitting there in a hard. drive. It's more like a feed in social. media. Things that you don't interact. with, they will eventually drop to the. bottom of that feed and will will get. forgotten. And it's the things that keep. getting comments at it and keep getting. likes that will stay on top of it and. they can stay there forever if you keep. doing that. >> But don't you think a lot of people say. and a lot of experts they say that talk.

about your bad experiences, talk about. what you're thinking. >> if you won't talk about it, if you won't. relive it, you won't be able to heal it. You should talk everything that you're. going through. >> Yeah. Well, but if you do that more. often according to your theory, then. it's it's bad because you're technically. reliving it. And every time you relive. it, you recreate and you add a little. bit of your imagination and story to it. So, you're making it worse. >> Mhm. >> Because every time you're reliving the. same emotion. I think that we need to. distinguish between uh reliving an. emotion and talking through the.

unresolved. because I think that u at least for me a. lot of my negative emotions they come. from this repeated engagement with. something that I can't change. Um. something that is on my mind because. there's nothing that I can do about it. And if [clears throat] I talk about it, it only escalates that emotion and. that's what gets written into my brain. and that's what keeps me coming back to. it. And because there is nothing in the.

end of that loop, um I don't think that. talking more about it helps. Uh I watch. people talk about politics u which I. prefer to avoid and a lot of times I see. that people dig themselves into a hole. They they know that they can't change. anything. But they still try to do that with their. mind. And I think there's value in. stepping away from that attempt to. resolve a pattern uh and uh instead.

refocusing on something else. But there. are other cases where you refuse to. engage with a problem that does have a. solution. When you are stuck in a. pattern in your life that requires you. to overcome something to to make an. effort to get to a new place um to to to. change something about your relationship. or to to find a new job. And in those. cases, it is talking about it that will. get you there, that will get you over. that ledge that will allow you to push.

yourself somewhere where you will end up. feeling better. So I think the key. distinction is consciously, rationally. deciding before you even attend to the. emotion, rationally deciding, is there. something in the end of this. conversation that I'm having with myself. or am I just ruminating? Because. rumination is what you don't want. Rumination is what leads to more stress. to to to digging yourself deeper into. that memory hole and then having a. harder time digging yourself out of it.

So is it rumination or is it productive. discussion? [snorts] I think that's the. first question to ask to decide am I. attending to it or am I not? >> What experience is really difficult to. forget? >> What experiences are really difficult to. forget? Well, the experiences that you are told. not to think about, [laughter]. they're usually the hardest ones to.

forget. You probably know about the. white bear experiment. That's this. famous tell me about it. >> There's this famous study where. participants were asked uh not to think. about the white bear, >> of course. Yeah. >> Uh and um what usually you hear is that. well, if you're asked not to think about. it, you you you think about it more. Yeah, >> it's not quite how the study worked. What's interesting is that you can. actually suppress a memory during the. experiment. If you're actively trying. not to think about it, you can redirect.

yourself to a different memory. Sort of. whack-a-ole that that white bear and. avoid thinking about it. But then. the moment you said, "Okay, you no. longer have to do that." All you can. think about is the white bear. It. rebounds and then it comes back to haunt. you. So the lesson is not that we can't. suppress a thought. We can, but the more. you suppress it. actively, the more it might come back to bite you. in the future. So I'm not suggesting.

when I say don't think about a negative. memory. I'm not suggesting. whack-a-oleing that memory that keeps. popping up. I'm suggesting finding. something else that will engage you and. will allow you to not think about that. thing that keeps sucking you in because. whack-a-ole is not productive. That will. only make things worse. >> So, make yourself busy doing something. else. >> Exactly. Exactly. Uh, one um term for. just a life strategy that I really like. uh is uh slow motion multitasking.

>> That's what I slow motion multitasking. >> Slow motion. Slow motion multitasking. >> What is it? Well, we know about normal. multitasking is when you have 15 tabs. open and you're doing multiple jobs at. once. And we know that that's not good. That leads to distraction. You end up. not doing anything uh any of those jobs. productively. Slow motion multitasking. is having different domains of your life. into which you can refocus. when the current thing that you're doing.

is giving you some trouble. That's what I genuinely live by. I have. my research. I have teaching. I write. books. I love to travel. There's lots of. different things that are not connected. to each other that I can isolate in my. mind and do just that. And one one time. or another, I will run into some problem. in research. some I'll hit some wall and. it will seem like there's nothing that I. can do about it and it will occupy my.

brain and it will get me really stressed. out. And what I do in those moments is I. just set it aside and I focus on my. teaching or or my writing and I try to. just completely forget about that. research for maybe a few days and then. when I come back to it I look at it with. with fresh eyes and and my brain has. removed that thing that was causing me. stress and without it I can see clearly. the problem and sometimes I immediately. [clears throat] find the solution. So I.

think it's a good strategy for for. anybody. Find your things where you can. refocus. Don't just drill down on one. thing because you will ine inevitably. hit a wall and you will want something. to refocus. >> Interesting. You know when you are. trying to forget certain things in order. to become a better person or change. yourself. There are parts of personality. that you don't like and there are parts. of your personality that you like. So. you're trying to focus on the liking.

part. You're trying to avoid the bad. parts and you're trying to change and. become better as a person, right? >> Because you study mine. What are the. things about my personality that I can. change and what are the things that I. can't? >> Personality is a is a complicated thing. As a memory scientist, I tend to think. that. most of what we are is plasticity.

>> Mhm. >> That's what I study. I like to believe. that uh you can change anything in in. your brain that you can adjust yourself. to any circumstance and change your. character in any way. But then I look at my nieces growing up. and I remember them how they were at, you know, 3 months old. and how they now. are at, you know, 10, 13, and it's the. same person. And you can clearly, at. least in hindsight, see how what you.

what you watched in in a baby couldn't. talk yet. plays out in very clear ways in this in. this adult. So, this makes me think that, well, maybe most of our personality is. genetically predetermined. I can't give you a single answer to. which of these perspectives is is the. true one. I think that all that we can. do is to strive for a better self to to.

do our best to improve ourselves within. the constraints that we have. But also. understand that uh there are features of. our personality that come to us with our. parents uh with our genes that we that. we can't easily overcome. It can even be. difficult to separate when when I think. about my parents for example. how much. of my personality comes from my genes.

versus just my parents being around and. and teaching me and and uh bringing. bringing me up. It's extremely difficult. to separate those parameters. Even if. you're looking at twin studies, uh that's probably the cleanest way to. do that. If you have identical twins. that are separated into into different. families at birth, then you can really. tell uh how much of of of their.

personality is genetic and and how much. of it is uh is acquired through. education. But even that can vary. between individuals and and between. different pairs of twins. Uh so we know for sure that uh there are. genetic factors on our personality. For. example, sensitivity to dopamine, the. quantity of dopamine or serotonin. You. know, a lower dopamine person will uh.

tend to have less motivation. but also be less neurotic than than a. person with with more dopamine. And. there are some. preset genetically determined factors. that that decide that. But none of those. factors is set in stone. Uh each one of. them has a has a degree of freedom. So. even if you are born with low dopamine. or if you're born with with with high. dopamine, it doesn't mean that you can't.

nudge that variable in in one direction. or another. Uh if you ask my intuition. about this uh I would put it at 50/50. I. would say that uh. >> 50% predetermined we can't do anything. about it. Uh 50% uh comes from culture, education, society, everyday experience. So you can't hope to change 100% of of. what you are, but you can always change.

some. So you're telling me that 50% of. who I am probably was decided even. before I was born? >> Yeah, probably. Probably uh I mean. certainly a large amount was decided. before you were born. Uh a lot of it was. decided before the human species uh was. was born. You know, that's what I really. study, the the real material foundations. of things like memory and motivation and.

consciousness. And what our studies show. is that all of those things are there. even before those animals and brains and. and humans long before that. Those are. all things that cells have. And it's not. just metaphorical memory or motivation. It's the same process that later gets in. later in evolution gets co-opted by our. brains by these complicated neurons that. that use those same tools that were. already there just for more complicated.

purposes. So a lot of what we are for. example the fact that we are drawn to. uncertainty uh anything that's. unpredictable draws us in. It's not uh. you or me or our parents. This is built in into the fabric of life. on earth. So a lot of those things. preede even even human society. A lot of them happen at the stage of our.

parents comes from their genes. A lot of. it happens at the point when the egg. meets the sperm because that's 50% of. dad's genes meeting 50% of mom's genes. It's also a lottery. uh and then a lot. of it is decided uh when that embryo. develops and when it's born and when it. learns and acquires its own habits and. and lives in a society and there is no. clear line that separates uh what. happened before with what happens later.

I think the unifying thread is that it's. the past everything about the present. moment contains a trace of everything. that happened in the past everything. from the origin of life. There's been. layers and layers and layers and layers. that never got replaced, never got. eliminated. They just kept layering more. and more and more and more without ever. discarding what was there in the first. place. See as a what you said right now. the fascinating thing I'm going to point.

it out is. you said a lot of things that we do. today. is because evolutionarily we were. designed that way. We've been doing that. since thousands of years. It's not. because of me or my environment or my. dad or my my mom or their parents or. ancestors or anything of that sort. Right? So tell me. what are the things that I do today. which.

which was programmed because of. evolution. or like what are the things that we've. been doing since we were animals? Well, for example, sleep. It's one of the most universal things. about the animal kingdom. Everybody who has a nervous system. sleeps. >> Even sea slugs, they don't have much of. a nervous system compared to ours, but.

they still need this. state in which they basically disconnect. themselves from the environment and do. nothing. You think about it from the. evolutionary standpoint. It's an insane. idea. >> Yeah, >> it's extremely dangerous. It's the. single most vulnerable point about your. entire life. And yet. everybody has it. So there has to be. something about sleep that you just. cannot escape. That it's this hard. constraint on having a nervous system.

that just can't be bypassed. [gasps]. There's still debate about what it is. >> What the consensus seems to be is that. it's about memory. that if you want to. accumulate information [clears throat]. in your brain, you also need time where. that information. fades, >> dissipates. Uh in our human example, uh most of the. time when we are awake, we're. strengthening synapses between neurons.

We're strengthening connections. Um so it's sort of like imagining uh. water flowing down a mountain. It carves. its own paths and depending on how it. flows it it carves them in in new ways. and next time it flows down that. mountain it flows through those same. paths. So experiencing something is. carving those paths is carving those. paths in your brain. But you can't just. be carving and carving and carving and. carving. If you just keep doing that.

eventually everything will be flat and. smooth and there will be no distinction. between this memory or that memory. And. that's what we really need. So you need. something that pushes against that. carving and restores the bedrock. That's what sleep does. It counteracts. the streng strengthening of synapses by. this average weakening. So during the. day you are mostly strengthening some. synapses, the ones that you use. You've. done something, you strengthen those. synapses. You've done something else, you strengthen those. But you haven't.

used this, this, and this one. And while. you sleep, all of them get reduced in. strength. So the ones that you haven't. used go below where they were the day. before. The ones that you have used, they return to some sort of average. value, but they're still stronger than. the ones that you haven't used. So the. differences are preserved, but the. overall average strength is rebalanced. to the same average value. That's called. homeostatic scaling.

That seems to be why all animals need to. sleep. If you want to form memories, you. also need to forget them. And for that, you need to stop experiencing and allow. for that process of uh of [snorts]. scaling. There are other things that. sleep does as well. We have different. phases of sleep. It's a complicated. process and it's not just everything. gets weakened. We also see dreams for. example and dreams are also about. memory. It's but that is a little bit.

different. It's about um. finding unexpected combinations of. memories that you formed integrating. newly formed memories into your uh. mental model consolidating them with uh. previously existing information. Uh so. it's that part of sleep. is. not something that every animal does. It's something that's more specific to. more advanced animals like ourselves.

But that's also required because of. evolution. One of my favorite facts. about our evolution. sort of creepy if you think about it is. you know we we have this stage in our. sleep of rapid eye movements REM sleep. Why is it that we are moving our eyes. during sleep? It's not that there's some particular. functionality in moving those eyes. It's that when you're dreaming,

you are experiencing the world from. within. Your brain doesn't know that. it's in this virtual reality. It's doing. everything that it would normally be. doing in live experience. But if you. allow the brain to control your body in. that moment and you imagine you're in a. jungle somewhere, well, you'll. immediately get eaten. If you move any. body, any body muscle, your hands or. your legs while you're dreaming, if. you're sleepwalking, basically that is. extremely dangerous and that will not.

survive for a long time in the jungle. There's only one muscle in the body that. you can move with no threat of being. detected and that's the eye muscles. So. evolution just leaves them alone. It's. not that there's some special. significance in moving the eyes. It's. just that it's important to suppress. everything else and the eyes are left. alone. That's why we move them. So our. immobility during dreaming. that's evolution telling us don't move.

or somebody will eat you. >> So you are a memory scientist and I have. two questions. Okay. And one of them is. why do I remember certain things from 15. years ago but I don't I don't remember. something from last week. >> Mhm. >> Like why does that happen? >> Well, we like to think that our memory. is like a camera that it doesn't care. what to snap.

>> It just takes a photo and stores it on. the hard drive. But that's really not. how memory works. So, I'm going to show. you my credit card number. H. What do you remember? Last four digits. >> If you're like most people, you probably. remember the beginning. You might. remember the end, >> but almost nobody remembers the middle.

>> Yeah, that's not how a camera works, is. it? This is called the primacy and recency. effect. There's two psychological. effects there. You remember beginnings. because they're first and we we we we. focus on the beginnings and you remember. the endings because they are the most. recent thing that you've read. And. almost nobody cares about the middles. It doesn't matter if it's sequence of uh. letters or numbers. It's also not. exactly my credit card number just in.

case. Or pictures. It doesn't matter. middleles always fall through. It's very. simple, but it already shows you that. our memory is not a camera. It remembers. things that are relevant to you for. specific reasons why your brain might. pay attention to them. Now, let's try. the second. >> Okay. So, what I want you to do is I. want you to look in the middle of the. screen and we'll show you some images. and some numbers. And I want you to. remember as many associations between. the image and number as you can. And in.

the end, I'll ask you I'll show you some. images and I'll ask you about the. number. Okay? Ready? Let's go. Okay. >> Yeah. >> Do you remember the number for the.

wrench? >> No. >> Do you remember the number for the. puppy? >> No. >> Okay. [laughter]. >> Yeah. I'm sorry. This is why it works. better in an audience because there will. always be some people who who. >> will remember the puppy one and then. they won't. remember the Yeah. That's why it's hard. with. >> I remember the door one. >> The door one. Yeah. >> Well, see that's interesting because. maybe for some reason the door lashed in. your memory and. >> because the last in the last exercise we.

spoke about door. >> and I was trying to find some pattern. like okay door and window and like there. must be something. So I was like this. time I'm going to hold on and get it. right. >> Okay. Well, that's very interesting. because there's some thought that came. from just a few minutes ago that. influenced. how your brain formed this memory in the. one second that I showed you that door. And in most people that would be the. puppy because I found that the puppy. works better than a kitten for whatever. reason. But irregardless what whatever.

whatever that stimulus is, there's. something about your brain that injects. this extra chemical. In the case of the. puppy, it's probably dopamine. In your. case, maybe it's something else. It. could be glutamate that that that sprays. on on a neuron that forms that memory. But regardless, it's a biochemical. process that is ignited in your brain. because of something that is relevant to. you. And that strengthens the connection.

between neurons that represent a number. and neurons that represent uh the image. It is happening during that 1 second and. that then produces a memory. That's not. how cameras work again. But this is how. we form memories. So the bottom line of. what I'm trying to say is that no memory. is just a standalone object. Each memory. is. how. your brain responds to its experience.

It is passed through the lens of your. perception. And your perception is. constructed based on every single thing. that has been happening to you up to. this point. your experiences, your love. of puppies or maybe not love of puppies, our conversation about the door versus. not having that conversation uh about. the door. Every single thing near-term. or long-term leaves some kind of imprint. that will influence what you remember.

Why do you remember something that. happened 15 years ago? Because it was. especially relevant to you. It would. happen to another person and they would. forget about it the following day. But. to you that experience was particularly. important and it resulted in a chemical. process that solidified the connection. between that queue and that result. So. point is each memory is about a person. It's not about what uh what is happening. in the outside world.

>> But tell me how do how does my brain. decide what's important and what's not? Well, there are many different things. that uh that we consider important or. not. Some of them are hardwired like uh. we all think that eating is important. Yeah. You can't really get around that. >> But how. >> I forget what I've eaten. >> You might forget what you eaten if it's. not wasn't very interesting. But if it. was something that you've tasted for the. first time and it made you made a big.

impression on you, well, you'll probably. remember that and you will want to try. that again up to the point when it. starts becoming just your everyday food. and you stop reacting to it. >> How taste pref taste preference is. actually a good model for how our other. memories are formed. Uh we have this. pre-existing. desire to eat. Babies have it. But uh. but babies.

only crave very very simple flavors. That's what's hardwired. You know, sweet. or umami like an avocado. You you you. can you you don't have to have a very. complicated brain to enjoy that. But as. we grow, as we experience the world, we. layer more and more and more uh. associations onto those primary flavors. You start with I like sweet and I like. salty. Uh but then you layer what your.

mom has fed you, what your grandma has. fed you, or what you've been eating with. your friends, and that association. becomes baked into that very same sense. It's not a separate sense. It's not that. you would taste something more complex. later in life and you think, hm, that's. tasty, but not in the same way as sugar. is tasty. No, it's a separate. No, it's. all the same thing. It's just tasty. So, it's not a separate feeling. It's just. that gradually as we as we experience.

life, we layer more and more of our own. personality onto those pre-existing. hardwired desires and and motivations. So um anything that we want, anything we. crave and by extension anything that we. remember better than other things has. some kernel that has been baked in baked. into us built into us um by evolution. from our birth with our genes.

But that kernel is very small and. everything else that comes on top comes. there because we have experienced it. The example that I like to give is. a baby, an infant, it might have an existing motivation to. eat, but it doesn't know at first that. food comes out of my mother's breast. That needs to be learned. But the moment.

that the baby realizes that that's. what's happening, now it starts craving. the mother's breast and that never. stops. We keep adding more and more and. more and more and extending the reach of. our desires and motivations and our. memories. Uh as we carve our own path. through life's experience. But because. you're talking about desires, there's. one thing which is probably universal. and everybody desires is this.

desire to be right. >> Mhm. >> Right. So why does it happen that the. brain keeps replaying old arguments in. the brain. >> and makes you want to win it? >> It's interesting that you say right. I would rephrase this. I don't think that the brain wants to be. right. I think the brain wants to be. self-consistent. and we think that we are being right,

meaning objectively right. >> but really all that the brain wants is. that there are no contradictions, no. internal contradictions and you can. build up an internally uncontradictory. model based on completely flawed. premises. That's what most religions do. uh or you can continue expanding that. model by uh adding more and more uh. facts to it. So the way that it works is.

we need to realize something about our. perception. >> Okay, >> we we like to think that our perception. works like a calculator. You input data, the data moves up the chain, it gets. more and it gets processed, gets. analyzed and then the result comes out. there this oneway street of information. But that's really not how our perception. works. Our perception involves two. streams of information. One is this. input of data from the outside world. It. does get analyzed and processed and.

becomes more and more complicated. It. moves through the brain. But then. there's this opposing. stream of information that comes from. within the brain that contains our. expectations, our predictions of what. the world is supposed to be, our. internal pre-existing pre-installed. model of what this world is. And what. our brain really wants is not to ensure. that those expectations are objectively. correct. It wants to ensure that.

whatever is incoming matches those. expectations and you can achieve that by. different ways if they somehow. contradict your your data doesn't quite. match your your expectations. There's a few things that can happen. One is that oh you change your mind. >> in in response to to the data. The data. forces you to reconsider how the world. works and you say okay I was wrong. actually it's this way. That's one way. that can happen. You adjust this. top-down.

prediction [clears throat]. as a result of this bottom up data. Bottom up wins, top down adjusts. That's. one way. Another thing that can happen. is. your perception changes. There's this famous illusion called the. hollow mask illusion. um you have this mask that on a video. that's facing you. >> and then it starts rotating and you know. that eventually it's going to turn to. you with this concave shape.

>> But our brains are really not used to. seeing concave faces. That's a. prediction that is really really strange. to us. >> It is much easier for the brain to see a. face like this. So when you're watching. this video, it turns, it turns, it turns. and turns and then your brain flips it. and it starts looking as if it became. like this again, but it's rotating in a. different direction. That's called the. hollow mask illusion or the hollow face. illusion. So that is a case where the. bottom up data is saying one thing, but.

your prediction says no, there's no way. it is actually this. So your expectation. changes the percept. Mhm. >> So up down wins, bottom up needs to be. adjusted. That's the second thing that. can happen. The third thing that can. happen is your prediction is so strong. and the data doesn't support it, but. your prediction also controls your your. muscles. It controls the world. You can. go and you can fix the world and you can. bring that world in accordance to your.

expectation. You see that something uh. something is misspelled on the page, you. go and correct it. And now all the data. now the bottom up supplies the correct. predicted information and now everything. is back to normal. So either you adjust. the top down or you adjust the bottom up. or you adjust the world and it starts. supplylying a different bottom up. But. one way or another what your brain wants. is to reconcile the two. It wants to. find a consensus between the two and. that is really what we perceive.

>> So you can achieve that by for example. ignoring any evidence. you can just cut. out uh anything that's contradictory. Just wall yourself off. Uh never never. look uh sideways and your opinions will. always be confirmed and you'll be. comfortable with that until somebody. points out some uncomfortable truth and. then you will either have to explain. that away to say that oh that person is. wrong because of that and that and that. so I don't have to include that in my.

model or you will have to adjust uh your. model in one way or another. The goal of. the brain as a whole is not to be. objective, is to explain away. reality. >> I really like this phrase explain away. There's no equivalent in Russian. So. when I was writing the book in Russian, that was something that I had to kind of. break down for a Russian audience, but. the English phrase explain away is. really pointed here. It's not just. explain as in find an explanation. We're.

not satisfied with that. We need to make. sure that nothing is left unexplained. When that happens, we are settled and we. we don't perceive anything extra. >> Interesting. >> An example that I that I that I give to. my students is imagine that you are. you locked you just locked the door to. your apartment. You you walk a foot away. and you it's hard to remember. Did you. just do it or not? It's so consistent.

with your expectation. Uh there's. nothing new about it. It's so fully. predicted. You barely register. You you. barely use your consciousness to to. register that fact. >> But if there's a slightest change in how. your key turns, if there's a millimeter. of difference, you will immediately feel. it and you will get jolted into. consciousness because that's. unexplained. And then you'll start. searching for an explanation. What. happened to my lock? provided. Why was. it unlocked when it's supposed to be. locked? And you won't settle until you.

find an explanation, until you explain. that away. That's all that our brains. are trying to do. Religion is very good. at plugging that. >> explanation with a pre-made worldview. It says everything is explained by this. H. >> science is different because science has. the built-in mechanism for resolving. these unexplained things. It says. whenever there's something unexplained,

here's a method of how you can find an. explanation and how you can expand your. model. It doesn't ever claim that this. model is settled. It just says that. there's a way that you can explain away. anything that sticks out. And that's why. science is not necessarily always. correct, but it has a built-in mechanism to. achieve infinite self-consistency. Any religion will eventually break down. in this consistency. There will be.

something that contradicts it and it. won't be able to absorb that. But. science can absorb any inconsistency and. expand uh the model. >> Interesting. So you're telling me my. brain is constantly fooling me because. it wants to match the current story that. I'm living. No matter what I've gone. through, the the reason why I keep. bringing the old arguments or old things. in my brain again again because my. current story or current perception is.

not matching it and my brain wants to. match that. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Because all my brain needs is to be. consistent. >> Yeah. That's what that's what all Well, when I say that's all that it wants, I'm. sort of contradicting myself because. earlier I said that all that you want is. surprise. >> Yeah. >> All that you want is to find surprises. And now I'm telling you that all you. want is consistency. >> So that seems like there's a two. opposite things. >> Exactly. And I think that this is really. a tension of our life that we have built.

into our brain and those two motivations. that are directed in different ways. What I described about surprise is. really a feature of our reward system of. of dopamine. It's an ancient system in. the brain that u pushes us to explore. the unexplored to to to investigate uh. this patch of grass where we found. something surprisingly good and all it. wants is more surprises and once the.

surprise is extinguished it pushes you. to find the next surprise. That's. dopamine. That's the reward system. But. then on top of that there's this. thinking part of the brain, the cerebral. cortex. That's the the smart part. That's what contains that world model. That's what understands things like. music or or or money, human things. And that brain part, the cortex, what it. wants is self-consistency. That's what. has those top down flows and and bottom.

up flows. And it wants to align them to. one another and achieve uh achieve this. explaining away. We contain both of. those forces. We have this dopamine. system that tells us get out of your. comfort zone, find new surprises, don't. get satisfied with what you have. And we. have this cortex that looks at the. reality and tries to align everything. everything all the expectations with. with all the data. So we simultaneously. want comfort uh we want predictability,

we want consistency. and we want surprises. And I think this. contradiction is really what animates. our life. How do you find this. balance between what your cortex wants, what your thinking part of the brain. wants, what your model of the world. wants and what your motivational system. wants. The motivational system, dopamine, the midbrain, that's the part. that produces it. It has no idea about.

our human life. It doesn't understand uh. what where we source our pleasure. It. doesn't understand what's happening in a. movie. It can't give you pleasure based. on that. It's the cortex that. understands all of those things and it. needs to tell the midbrain, hey, there's. some unexpected something unexpectedly. good in the environment. And then the. midbrain says, okay, well, if you say. so, here's dopamine for you. And. dopamine makes the cortex then look for, well, actually, my expectation and. reality are not quite aligned. There's.

this gap between them. How can I how can. I align them closer to each other so I. always have this reward? So it always. comes to me and it tries to close that. that gap between surprise and. expectation. Dopamine. accentuates the gap between what you. expect and what is really there. But is that then good way or healthy way. of living. >> because my brain is my brain is always.

fighting and it's like always. unsatisfied. always looking for something new. something craving some pleasure. >> Isn't that like a very taxing way of. living? >> It is taxing. I agree with you. >> Is it the only way? >> But well here's an example. You can. breed mice that are deficient in their. dopamine production that just don't make. dopamine. They have the cortex uh but. they don't have enough dopamine. And.

there are some clinical conditions where. similar things happen to humans. Unfortunately, it's it's a rare. condition and syphilitis lethargica. Um. but it does happen. So basically we can. say that your dopamine is turned off. All you have is the cortex. Uh and you. can watch videos of those mice. Um, and it's just scary. It's creepy. because what what happens is this mouse, it's not paralyzed. It can move. Uh, you. can hold it on your finger. It will.

cling to that finger. It will hold on. You put it in the arena and it just. sits. Doesn't want to do anything at. all. >> Doesn't want to do anything. It doesn't. want to flick its tail. Just sits. You put a little piece of food in front. of it and it's hungry. It hasn't eaten. for a while. it doesn't move towards it. You put it. in its mouth, it chews its, it's a. reflex. At that point, it can chew and. swallow and and you know, it will be. healthy. But even when it's just in.

front of it, it doesn't have motivation. to to to make that action and to uh to. to to to grab that piece of food. So, anything that we do on top of knee-jerk. reflexes and then basic reflexes like. chewing or swallowing, anything we do on. top of that requires this dopamine. system to push us out of the state of. complete uh inactivity. So, yes, it sounds like it would be.

great to just remove dopamine from the. picture. You know, we would have. Buddhist enlightenment uh and we. wouldn't have any desires. That's a terrible way of living. >> That is a terrible way of living. And um. I mentioned that there have been some. patients, some humans who have. experience that kind of condition. And. it's terrifying. Um you can't bring them. back to life temporarily. That has been. done famously by Oliver Saxs um who. later became a famous neuroscience.

author. Many people have been introduced. to neuroscience through Oliver Saxs. Um. but he was also a neurologist uh in the. 1960s and uh he was the person who um. came up with the idea of giving patients. with this condition L-dopa which is uh. which is a drug used against Parkinson's. disease restores some dopamine which is. depleted in Parkinson's and even more so. in the encphilitis condition. So he gave.

those patients this drug that's normally. used against Parkinson's disease. He. thought there's some similarities. Maybe. it will help them. And it did. For a. short amount of time, this restored. their function. So you could talk to. them. You could ask them what it was. like. They woke up from this state of. torper in which some of them were for 30. years. Suddenly they could talk. They. were in a good mood. They would strike. conversations. But the stories that they. would tell were terrifying. You know, it's not that they were completely.

asleep. It's not that they just didn't. remember anything. It it sounds like. this state of being stuck in a loop. Um. this one woman recalled a particular. melody that played in her mind for all. of those years over and over and over. and over again. It's as if she was. walking in some sort of square room in. circles for all this time. That's what. happens when you don't have dopamine to. push you out and and push you to to look.

for that next batch of grass. So yes, it. is what makes us unsatisfied, but it is. also what keeps us going and living life. in [snorts] a in a human way. So I think. the only thing that we can do is find. the balance between those constraints. Find a way that you can sustain. motivation. even after you reach your immediate. goal. Don't focus so much on the goal as. on the process of getting to that goal.

Understanding that there will be more of. getting to goals in the future that just. never stops. And at the same time. acknowledging that what your cortex. wants, what your thinking brain wants is. stability, is uh consistency. And so you. need to give it some of that too. You. need to balance novelty with familiarity. with stability. I think that's what. we're all trying to do in one way or. another. But maybe knowing how that. works from the brain point of view just. gives you a little bit more control over.

it. >> Tell me what's worse, no dopamine or a lot of dopamine. [laughter]. >> Well, based on those clinical cases, I. think no dopamine at all is much worse. than than a lot of dopamine. So this. constant craving of more dopamine which. majority of people have gotten. trapped into I would say. >> is better than having no dopamine at. all. >> Well, it's what makes you crave things.

But craving things is what makes you. excited. We we know today it used to be thought. that dopamine. causes pleasure, that it's a pleasure. molecule. We know now that that's not. the case. Um. just pure dopamine molecule does not. produce a pleasurable feeling. Uh. empetamines are basically artificially. elevating dopamine. They make people. more erratic. They make them more goal. directed, more tunnel vision, more.

focused on the goal, but it doesn't give. them euphoria. So that's out of the. question. Dopamine is not the pleasure. molecule. But. this sense of wanting something the. sense of uh there is something to which. towards which I'm working towards which. my life is gravitating. that sense in itself is very valuable. and I think it is a component of what we. call pleasure. It's not pleasure itself,

but it's part of it. And I think that if. we learn to understand that there's no. resolution, it's just a thing that we. need to live with. I think that you can. derive pleasure from. >> motivation from from being motivated to. do something. >> Just that that process that instinct to. keep doing. >> if will should be enough to make us. happy. The instinct to keep doing is is.

a very good way to to characterize the. entire functioning of the reward system. That's what it is. It's the instinct to. keep doing. >> and that should motivate us more than. the reward. ideally. >> Well, [sighs and gasps] we're never. really motivated by the reward. We're. motivated by trying to figure out where. does this reward come from? Like with. those pigeons, what motivates them is. trying to crack the pattern. >> And if the pattern is uncrackable, they.

get stuck. >> and brain is always trying to crack a. pattern. At least mine [clears throat]. >> like always like every in every little. thing. >> You can't escape this. Anything that you. like, anything that brings joy to your. life will cause this dopamine release. And that's basically. telling the brain, why don't I have this unexpected thing. all the time? Why is it unexpected? Make. it expected. Make it so that I have.

access to it all the time. Make it so. that this window which opens with the. reward, I can open at any time. >> That's what that's what it wants. And. once you can do that, you no longer care. about. >> it's not true. >> Yeah. >> True. Once you have cracked the formula, it's not fun. >> Yeah. Yeah. You have to move on to to. the next thing. But the catch is that if. you then. stop doing this, you've cracked the. pattern. You don't abandon it. No, you. have to continue doing it. Because if. you stop accessing that window, well, your brain will tell you, hold on, there.

was this reward that we had all the time. and where did it go? No, bring that. reward and more and find something else. So, it's always an escalation. It it's. never that you abandon something before. and move on to the next thing. you. incorporate that as now your expectation. and you keep looking for for more. rewards. That's why it always feels like. we are insatiable. And I think it's true as we grow older. uh the things that motivate us grow in. size and cost and complexity and uh you.

know when you're little there's not much. that you need to be excited and as you. grow older it becomes harder and harder. to find something unexpected and. surprising. >> True. True. You know another unexpected. thing which which bothers me sometimes. is. one random smell. >> can bring back a memory which happened. with me 20 years ago. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> How there's something special about.

smell that is unlike any other senses. And I think that it must have to do with. how ancient smell is in the functioning. of our brain. And with what I mentioned. that mammals as a group come from this. nocturnal environment where they had to. hide and smell was the primary sense. that they could use to navigate this. dark space. Um, it is well known that.

smell can ignite memories more vividly. and more efficiently than uh than than. any other sense. Something about the. wiring of alaction is just closer to to. our emotional centers or our memory. centers for one reason or another. I'm. sure it's an evolutionary reason that. transports us to the memory more. efficiently than than anything else. I've recently had this. incredible flash bulb memory based on. the faintest of smells. Um, they.

remodeled something on our department. floor and they laid out these new. carpets and I think it was a smell of. maybe some of the plastic in that. carpet. I'm pretty sure nobody else. would even notice this. But as I walked. through the small patch of this carpet, it's just like a meter long. And I. walked through it and I caught a whiff. that transported me to this extremely. specific place to I was in I think fifth.

or sixth grade and I was in the summer. camp and there was a computer room back. in the day. There were computer rooms. and you would play video games in those. computer rooms. It's not like everybody. had a computer in their pocket. So we. used to play Warcraft 2 in that room and. it transported me to that computer room. where I was playing Warcraft 2. I I. could hear the music. I could remember. the fun of playing this game that I. haven't played for, I don't know, 20. plus years. It was incredible how just.

this one whiff, I don't know, a few. molecules of whatever that piece of. plastic was takes me back to I didn't to. to a memory that I didn't know was was. there. >> And why? probably because uh when our ancestors. wore tiny shrews uh trying to decide. where to move and where not to move, the. smell was the primary thing that uh that. that that gave them that impression. A. smell can compress a lot of information.

into just a small pattern of of of. chemistry in in your nose. So, I think. it's just a it's just an efficient way. to to memorize your environment, compressing a lot of variables into one. momentary stimulus. >> Is it because of sensing danger or is it. because of sensing food.

or friend or a foe? >> That's a great question. I don't know. the answer to it. I would suspect that. both are true. Um, you can smell blood. and be scared of it. Uh, and that could. come with a whole host of connotations. that you want to avoid. And you can. smell a lot of delicious things. Uh, and. they also transport you to to good. places. So just because um I don't. personally feel that my smell memories. are biased one way or another, I assume.

that that's how it also was for those. ancient truths. But it's possible that. something has changed over time and what. used to be biased towards negative. emotions um later became extrapolated. into the rest. >> Interesting. Because we're talking about. senses, there's another sense, hearing, >> right? That is also problematic sometime. Why. does a song get stuck in my head. >> even though when I don't want it? >> Mhm. Mhm. I love that topic because I I.

have very strong earworms. There's. basically always something playing in my. head. There's there's always one song or. another. They just get displaced with. with other songs, but there's always. something circulating in my brain. Um, and I've noticed, I don't know if that. happens to everybody else, but I have a. very specific time when that happens. I, um, an earworm appears in my brain later. than 24 hours, but earlier than 48 hours.

after I hear the song. So, it's. somewhere between 36 hours or so. And. suddenly, the song that I heard 36 hours. ago, it pops in my head and I just start. singing it again. I'm very curious what. is happening during those 36 hours. What. sort of protein synthesis or gene. activation happens in what cells that. later it it produces this uh this. earworm. Uh what I've noticed from. personal experience is that what creates.

an earworm is a moment in in a song to. which I pay special attention. If if for. example there's some lyric in a in a. song that I previously didn't hear very. well but suddenly I realize what it's. about. I have this aha moment 100% in. two days I will be singing that song for. for for for the next week. >> So it's some moment of resolution. that boosts this [snorts].

memorization of a particular moment in. song. to some moment in a song that. creates resolution and that is what. boosts your memorization of it. And if. you think about it, music in general, it is all about. creating tension and then resolving it. >> Yeah. >> And that aligns very well with what we. talked about uh with us seeking um. uncertainty. Uncertainty draws us in. We. try to crack it. We try to find what's.

the pattern here. Music does that. It. gives us uncertainty. and then we crack it. And then it gives. us uncertainty again and then we crack. it again. It's this constant cycle of. uncertainty and resolution. Uncertainty. and resolution. And some of this. uncertainty it's resolved in this new. way that is especially salient. And at. least in my mind, that's what is most. likely to create an earworm. It's this. especially juicy resolution that gives.

us that. >> So you're saying that subconsciously our. mind is always trying to solve something. >> and if I hear something some music which. resolves that problem. >> somehow we don't know how and that aha. moment gets stuck in our brain. >> That's what I believe. Um I can't say. that it that I am basing this on some. existing science. I'm mostly basing it. on my own impression of my my ear worms. But I also know I can I can.

be confident saying that that everything. that we're thinking about all the. processing of information in in our. cortex is about uh matching data and. patterns. It is about finding what. pattern to fit the data into. And music. is structured around that. It gives you. the data and it makes you search for the. pattern and you find it because it's not. that complicated and you've heard it. before and you will find it. And that's. what makes it pleasurable. If it's not. patterned, if you can't find that.

pattern, well, then it doesn't sound. like music. >> True. >> The premise is that it's it lives in. this gap between familiarity. and surprise. If it's fully predicted, it's boring. You you you don't care. If. it's completely something that you've. never heard and the harmonies that. you've never experienced, it doesn't. sound like music. So, it needs to have. both components. It needs to hinge on. something that you already expecting, but then give you enough surprise to.

support your desire to listen to it. again. And if you listen to it, you. know, 10 times in a row, uh, you fully. predicted it and you no longer want to. listen to it. You want to listen to. something else. See every time we are. trying to solve some pattern and. [clears throat] there's. and if there's a very strong emotion. attached to it we remember it and that's. where we keep playing these kind of. things in our head and repeating these. things right. >> so. >> we're trying to solve something.

unexpected it gets solved we like it. there's an aha moment and then the brain. remembers it and if it happens again. again it becomes a memory it becomes. repetition right. >> yeah yeah. >> then [snorts]. >> was I not doing anything in childhood. because my question is why can't I. remember being a baby? >> Mhm. >> And I ask so many people this question. and they don't remember how they were as. babies. I remember I have some memory of. me being a teenager or maybe earlier. than that. >> But I don't remember like my how I was.

like when I was one or two or three. >> Mhm. >> Why? That's called childhood amnesia. And. most people have it until about the age. of four. Uh and after that it starts to. subside. And most people have their. first memories around that age. I don't. know what what would you say was your. first memory that you can remember? >> Yeah. Something around four five. >> something around that. Mine is literally. my fourth birthday. I remember g getting.

this little coin. And we used to live in. Sweden at that time and and I was given. for my birthday this 10 kroner coin. I. remember receiving it. So I know that it. was my birthday. So it aligns with with. with what I remember. Why is that? Well, for whatever reason, evolution installed that that time limit. uh into into our brain. Other animals. also have it. Um the reason is probably. the fact that you need the initial.

installation of all the patterns into. your brain [clears throat]. to then start detecting those patterns. in the outside world and matching the. outside world with those patterns. When you're born, your cortex doesn't. know anything about the world. It's just. a tangle of neurons and they have to be. tuned to the environment. They have to. learn how physics work. You know, things. fall if I push them and liquid things. flow if I pour them. All of that has to.

be has to be learned. The sensation of. time, uh, the relationships with your. family, all of that has to be built into. the brain. And I suspect that evolution. gives the brain this time to to install. the software before it starts. remembering what happens with the. software because it wouldn't be. productive to start recognizing patterns. before the patterns are fully. established in in that model. So I think. I think and I might be wrong about that.

It might be some hard physical. constraint and rather than this. evolutionarily. programmed decision. But I suspect that. it's similar to why we don't remember. dreams. Uh there are specific. neurons in the brain that actively. suppress a memory of a dream. >> Yeah. >> Because if we didn't distinguish between. dreams and reality, it would be a mess. we would be we would be remembering.

crazy things and we wouldn't be able to. tell uh what what was real and what is. not real. So sometimes when a dream. finds some useful combination of of. memories that needs to get exported into. the brain and saved and there is good. evidence that dreams help you for. example um develop a skill. If you if. you dream after you practice a motor. skill, your brain will find ways to. integrate that skill into various. locations during your dreaming and that.

will help you with that skill when when. you are woken up. So you can't export. things from a dream into the brain. But. mostly you don't want to do that because. in most cases you won't find a useful. association. You will find crazy. associations. That's what our dreams. usually are. Most of them are gibberish. And so the brain disconnects uh that uh. that memorization. Essentially dreaming. is like a sandbox. You know, developers. use that language for uh for for system. that's disconnected from the internet.

when they are not worried about uh. making some mistakes. Uh dreaming is is. like that. It's a sandbox for for our. memories. So I think that those first. four years of life are probably similar. to that. Uh it's the period when we. don't want interference between incoming. data and pre-existing patterns because. there's not enough pre-existing patterns. yet to meaningfully analyze what's.

incoming. >> But genetically, do I not have. pre-existing patterns in my brain. installed? Some, yes, but think about this. We only. have 20,000 genes and we have a 100. billion neurons in the brain. Even if. you had a gene for each neuron, somehow. describing where that neuron connects, you just wouldn't have enough genes for. that. >> True. >> So everything that comes to us with. genes has to be packaged into a sperm.

and an egg. That's it. There's no more. information. And then from from there. you need to develop this extraordinarily. complicated machine. There is just no. way that you can pack into genetics. everything that it has to learn. It has. to develop in a conversation uh with the. outside world. Um sometimes it's not. even the outside world. There's this. what I find really fascinating in how. the visual system in the brain develops.

>> is before you're even born, you know, your eye, your retina connects to some. neurons deeper within the brain and the. phalamus and then those connect to even. deeper neurons in the cortex. There's. this pathway from the eye to the brain. But it needs to get set up. All the. neurons need to get wired together in. proper combinations. For that you need some signal to move. through your eye. You need some test. signal in your eyes to be pushed in the.

brain and then those signals will set up. the neurons correctly. So what happens. is before we are born before we open our. eyes for the first time there's this. traveling wave that moves across the. retina this fake signal. It's like a TV. uh you know those test uh those test. images that they use to calibrate TVs. just like that just a signal that is not. representing anything. It just moves. there. So you could install the neurons. uh downstream of that eye. So you need. experience even if it's fake experience,

even if it's just this pre-installed. test signal. You need something to wire. the the neurons in your brain correctly. So that just shows me that you have to. have real life essentially to set up. your brain. You can't just uh have it. pop out of the of the egg and be ready. to go. You need time for it to interact. with the world. >> Interesting. And it's so fascinating. that.

when you come in the world, you need so. much time to actually build those. patterns. But then there are certain. patterns and emotions and certain things. that we do which are which have been. there since millions of years and it's. it has just come to us. >> Yes. I I I think you really put your. finger on a deep and beautiful problem. that somehow. even though we are constructed from our. own experience,

there are patterns in in what we are. that go all the way to the past before. there was this crazy tangle of neurons. There is this there are these ideas that. are just in the air in in in nature that. are continuous from. billions of years ago. And I think that. is beautiful. I think that that's my. equivalent of religion. Uh you know what.

other people might experience when they. think about God. I experience this sort of divine. trepidation. when I think about. these nature's ideas that just exist in. atoms in cells and that connect what we. think is personal to us what we think is. is is just constructed by our minds that. connect us to the entire history of of.

nature that's why I study memory because. this this process us that has been. around since there were cells but we. still experience it viscerally as if. it's unique to us. >> What are the other things? What are. other things which are which are there. since the time we were animals? >> Well, motivation. >> um. our simplistic model. is that we we we experience a.

pleasurable thing. we like it and then. we memorize it and then we want to come. back to it and that's how our motivation. works. It's not actually how it works. What draws us in is not a reward. It's. not the fact that something pleasant. happened. It's unpredictability. Uh this amazing experiment from BF. Skinner that I always cite, but it's. it's just so vivid. It's originally been. done on pigeons, but uh you can do it on.

on on any animal. it will work the same. way. Uh you give those pigeons uh a. button to peck in their cage and you set. the parameters such that say they peck. 50 times and a window with reward opens. So they have to do this job of picking. the button. They peck it and they peck. it and they peck it. They peck it 50. time 50 times the window opens. They get. the reward and they're tired. They walk.

around. They don't do anything for a. while. There's this pause [gasps] and. then they come back to their job and. start picking it again. Now you set this. reward to 100 picks. The job is harder. now. They get more tired in the end. The. this delay when they're resting becomes. prolonged. They really don't want to go. back to this job again. But all you need to do is make this re. reward this this you all you need to do. is make this amount of picks that they.

need to get the reward unpredictable. Make it random and then they don't stop. They just keep pecking and pecking and. picking. They get it. They keep picking. because they're trying to figure out the. pattern and there is no pattern to. figure out. You've said it in such a way. that it's purely random. That is what draws us in. That is what. produces that dopamine that motivates us. to continue doing something. And that's. what sucks us into social media, into.

gambling. Uh it's set up deliberately in. such a way so that you can never figure. out a pattern. When you're in a slot. machine and you are and you keep playing. and you keep playing, what your brain. really wants to do is understand the. pattern, understand how it works. What. is the overarching. mechanism? What is the algorithm? That's. what you're trying to get to. If you got. it, you'll be very happy in that moment. But you can't. And so you keep doing it. You keep doing it. You dig in and you. and you never dig yourself out of it. So.

that is something that existed way. before humans. That's something that. animals apply to foraging. uh when they. find something surprising in their. environment, well that's motivation for. them to explore that that patch of of. grass. That's foraging. You start. looking for what else is there? What. else is there? And then when you get a. complete picture of that patch of grass, when you found everything that's that's. to be found in there, you get bored of. it and you move on to to something else.

Now, we are applying it to much higher. order uh things in our life than just a. patch of grass with some food in it. But. the logic is the same. You explore it, then you get bored of it and you move on. to somewhere else where you might find. more surprises. We're always looking for. more surprises. It's not because we are, you know, because we live in this. hideonic world. It's because surprises. is is what draws our brains in. fundamentally. That's what provides.

motivation rather than just uh a reward. Because if you just motivated an animal. with reward, well, the moment it got. enough food and enough water, it's good. It's satisfied and it doesn't need to do. anything and it just sits and eats and. drinks and doesn't move anywhere. That's. not what you want. If you have an animal. that does that versus an animal that. gets bored the moment it understands how. this patch of grass works and moves on. to look for something else, that second. animal will survive much longer than the. first one that's just satisfied with. everything that it has. We need to be.

unsatisfied evolutionarily. So our. unsatisfaction, our our our impression that there's. something more to be had, that there's. always something else to be chasing, that is built into us by evolution. It. way way way precedes humans and I would. argue even precedes animals. I think. that that's something that even. single-sellled organisms would be would. be motivated by. >> Explain this. You're telling me that. evolution.

has designed me in a way that I'll. always be unsatisfied. Like I want more because. evolutionarily I'm just like this. And. every living organism is designed like. that. >> Yeah. Evolution really doesn't care. about how you feel about yourself. It. cares about your survival. And the the. tormented, the unsatisfied, the ones who. always seek more, well, they survive. better than those who are satisfied with.

with whatever they have, who don't need. much, who just need a little bit. Because. >> philosophically, this is a bet on inevitable change. What. evolution says is that, okay, well, now. you're good, but it won't last forever. Everything changes. The world will. always change. your food. Yes, now you. have a lot of it, but it will run out. Your water will run out. Something will. happen in the environment. And then. what? If you preempt that by being. unsatisfied,

well, then you'll be better off in the. long run. Even if you if that torments. you and even if that makes you feel like. there's something more to life, that is. something that evolution can live with. >> Wow. It really did something to me. because I'm not satisfied ever. [laughter]. Well, um I think the the practical. lesson from that is. by design. there is nothing in the end of. this goal directedness.

We always direct it towards a goal. We. always have something towards which. we're moving. But no matter what it is, the moment we get there, there will be. something else. That's just how we are. wired. Yeah. So we need to live with. that. We need to accept that as a fact. and just ride that ladder. Don't think that this next thing will be. the end of it. Think about how you can. continuously keep moving along that.

ladder. Uh you know a good image that I. have is a waterfall. There are some. creatures that like to uh hold on to a. piece of moss in the waterfall and. that's where they spend most of their. life. What about the waterfall? Waterfall moves. It brings you fresh. food. It brings you fresh oxygen, fresh. water all the time. You don't have to do. anything because the environment moves. along and you get this novelty. You get. these surprises. uh just come to you. So I think that the.

secret to happiness is finding that kind. of waterfall in our life. Finding what. can provide you with more surprises with. more things that will uh unexpectedly. uh give you pleasure. You can't plan for. uh for pleasure. It has to happen um. spontaneously. >> But people crave pleasure. People crave. validation. And people crave status.

>> Mhm. >> Is that something which is also. evolutionarily designed? >> Well, there's a few questions in there. Um, status. is one thing that humans crave. Why do. we crave status? Because we're a social. species uh that have been organized in. such a way so that it's very important. to us where we where we're placed on the. social ladder. It's very important for. us to see that you know I am at least as. good as most of my society and maybe I'm.

better in this way or another. That's. also hard hardwired into. >> is it like human thing or is it like. since the time we were animals we had. this need to have a higher status? >> That's a good question. There are different animals uh and not. all of them necessarily have the sort of. social stratification that we do. Even. within primates, the closest to us, there's a lot of variation on how.

primate societies are structured. Some. of them are, you know, more hierarchical. with with one leader and usually a male. with sort of a polygamous herum. Others. like Gibbons for example, they have. smaller families. more or less egalitarian females and. males more or less similar roles. So. that's a little bit closer to to how we. humans are. Uh it's hard to put your. finger on exactly where the human social.

instincts kick in and also on just how. hardwired uh they are. Um. so much of it is clouded by different. historical narratives uh which fall into. usually two extremes. Uh either you know. what were we like when we were hunter. gatherers. Uh some people say oh it was. paradise. We were just you know carefree. and there was no hierarchy and and no.

abuse and we were just eating nuts and. berries and everything was great. Other. people say no it was war of all against. all. All there was was violence and uh. until you know civilization and laws. came about it was just uh just blood and. gore. probably neither of those are. true. And I think that what is most. evident about ancient human societies, the more we learn about them, uh the.

more we recognize that there were all. kinds of societies uh among hunter. gatherers and Neolithic humans. Uh and. um some of them were more hierarchical, some of them were more egalitarian, some. emphasized violence more, other. emphasized play more. So I think the. only thing that is obvious in that. social domain is that we have a great. degree of [snorts] flexibility that that. that the human brain can accommodate.

many different types of societal. organizations and get used to them and. accept them as as the right way to be. >> But where did this need for status and. validation came from? I think it comes from the need to. protect yourself. That's where all of our social instinct. fundamentally comes from. And it's not. necessarily something that has to be.

that way. For example, dolphins are also. social, but their social instincts are. structured around different things. They. they are social because they hunt. together mostly. orcas and dolphins. So, it's more of an offensive sociality. Ours. was originally structured around. collective defense. The reason is that uh even before there. were primates and and monkeys,

mammals as a group. started as this hidden nocturnal group. of animals that uh was hiding from. dinosaurs mostly. We're talking the. messoic era. Large raptures rule the. world. Dinosaurs are mostly daytime creatures. And so mammals evolved for 150 million. years in their shadow, meaning mostly at. night. They were small, stealthy.

creatures, very developed smell and. hearing, anything that's not visual cuz. that's what you need to use to get. around at night. That's the genesis of. mammals, hiding from dinosaurs during. the night. Then the dinosaurs die out. And so in a span of very short time on. evolutionary time scale, 10-15 million. years, suddenly those mammals that were. hiding all this time, they burst out of. hiding. They expand and they fill every. niche that the dinosaurs left behind. They go into into the water and the.

trees and the sky everywhere. So where. we used to be dinosaurs everywhere, now. we have mammals everywhere except birds. birds is the leftover from dinosaurs and. they still occupy that daytime flying. niche. You can't really think of many. daytime flying mammals. There are some. bats that fly during daytime, but it's. pretty rare. That's the one niche that. birds occupy. Everything else is taken. over by mammals, >> but mammals to this day remain mostly. nocturnal. 80% of mammal species are.

still active during the night. The one. group that almost completely moves from. nighttime to daytime is primates. So that's this one branch of mammals. that decides, okay, we're going to. abandon this nocturnal lifestyle that. we've been living for 150 plus million. years. We're going to move into daytime. The reason is that primate specialty is. trees. Primates live on trees. That's what. monkeys do. That's their specialty. Dolphins swim in the water. Monkeys.

climb trees, but trees you have to see. >> You can't smell the difference between. the different trees. You can't. echolocate them. It's too too dense. Whisker senses and other mamalian um. sense like mice use their whiskers to. feel out uh narrow spaces. But you can't. use that for trees either. Really, the. only thing that you can do with trees is. see them. >> So, you have to move around during the. day. That's what pushes primates from. the night time into daytime.

And now we have these monkeys whose. specialty is climbing trees and they can. only do that during the day. And now we. are facing the same problem that existed. during the dinosaurs. Everybody can see. you. Any predator that wants to to to. hunt those monkeys has a much easier. time doing that. So what happens? Monkeys start banding into groups. >> And that is the source of all of our. social instincts. It's this need for. collective defense. I think it's a very.

deep insight into where our social. instincts come from. Fundamentally, we. need friends because we're scared, because we want to defend ourselves. against monsters, against these threats. And uh I think a lot of of how we. function on the social level points us. in this direction. There's this hormone. called oxytocin. is usually presented as a love hormone. that you you know get a jolt of this. oxytocin makes you love everybody. It's.

partially true. >> And oxytocin is elevated. For example, when two people or two monkeys are. hugging each other or monkeys like to. groom each other, close contact, I2 face. to face uh conversation, all of those things elevate uh oxytocin. And yes, it does make you trust uh. people or monkeys uh within your group. more. Makes you maybe love them more.

gives you that soft plushy feeling. But. what gets ignored a lot of times that. that same jolt of oxytocin. also makes you more distrustful of. outsiders. So it's not so much a love. hormone. as much as a tribalism hormone. It. reinforces this bond within the. tight-knit group that needs it to. protect itself. And it says everybody. else is an enemy. Everybody within our.

this group is is my tribe. That's what. this chemical system is designed to do. I think it tells us this takes us back. to this moment when we needed sociality. to to protect ourselves. And oxytocin is. actually a very interesting molecule. because it existed in animals in. vertebrate animals, slugs, worms, >> way before they start really doing. anything complicated on social level. So. it apparently.

did something. in the animal kingdom in the animal body. before it acquired this additional role. in reinforcing human societies. Uh for. example it stimulates egg laying in bugs. in beetles. and it also promotes contractions during. birth in humans. That alone is just a. crazy fact that the basically the same. hormone causes egg laying in beetles and.

childbirth in humans. And additionally. in humans it also makes us uh you know. love our our our tribe more. And there's. this extra tidbit about oxytocin that I. don't have an explanation for but it. appears that the theme in evolution is. reproduction that makes sense and social. functions later that reproduction and. sociality make sense together. But then. there's also kidneys,

>> water, salt excretion. [sighs and gasps] What does that have to. do with it? I have no idea. There's some. ancient connection between uh excreting. salts and laying eggs. I guess what. exactly that connection is, I can't tell. you. But it just points us to somehow. sometimes evolutionary ideas don't make. total sense. uh to us because there's. been so many millions of years since the. beginning till implementation and in our.

brain. >> So you're telling that a lot of our. social instincts came from our desire to. defense defend ourselves and that's why. we all came together and do you think. that can be a probable reason why we. crave status because whoever will be. higher status will be probably killed in. the end. So the lower status will be out. there first and the higher status will. save themselves because amongst let's. say there are 100.

living beings coming together trying to. save themselves and then whenever the. attack happens we want the less powerful. to be killed first because you want to. be saved. >> I think there's a lot of logic in that. I think that whether or not we. consciously think that, oh, I'm going to. be the last one to to to be killed or. I'm going to be the first one on on the. line, um, subconsciously we're really. scared of being social outcasts. because if your group.

sheds you, then you're unprotected. Yeah. >> If if you're pushed out and you're in. the jungle, forget about it. So being. ostracized, being um uh. in congruent with with your group is a. big fear and maybe it's not so as much. as physical threat in modern society, but we still perceive it as an. existential threat. And I think that. does take us back to to the jungle and.

to to where we evolved and where those. threats were very real and physical. >> Interesting. Tell me are there things. then. which are probably personality flaws. Do. you think that is also. because of evolution? For example, there. are personality flaws in you and I and. almost everyone which are like jealousy, anxiety, >> comparison. Do you think all of this is.

also or like people pleasing? >> Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> Are they because of evolution or is it. because of our experiences in the social. human world? >> Mhm. Mhm. I think it's because of both. We have to remember that evolution. proceeds on a much slower scale than um. society evolves. Uh, ever since we've. discovered language, our society has been changing at a pace.

that our bodies and our brains just. can't keep up with. >> So, I think that anything that we. experience as flawed. is. nature. misalignant. with the most recent changes in our. society. Uh we were not meant to um uh. to to to be living in uh 20s story uh.

buildings in in these dense uh cities. Uh that's not what our brains have been. designed to to do. We were not meant to. eat grain which is the basis of what we. eat as an agricultural uh civilization. We can adapt to many of those things, both mental and and physical, but there. probably are limits to what nature. allows us to to where nature allows us. to to deviate from what's built in. And.

I think that what you're describing, personality flaws, are cases of this. kind of misalignment. uh anxiety. It is probably there because it was. designed to respond to real threats. But. now we scroll through social media and. we perceive every single thing that. happens in the world as a personal. threat. Uh that's not how evolution. designed it to be. But yes, it designed. the fact of anxiety and the fact that.

there are situations that make you. anxious. So context has changed, the biology has changed a lot less. Even. though I shouldn't change I shouldn't. say that it didn't change at all. Um I. think that in a lot of cases uh we we. underestimate how fast biology can. change. uh for example there are studies. from Iceland that show that even within. a single generation. um the average intelligence can can.

shift for example genetically speaking. and people who. tend to have more kids and also in that. particular Iceland example also tend to. have lower lower intelligence and that. can meaningfully have a intelligence. intelligence coefficient IQ uh and that. can have a meaningful effect on IQ Q. across just a single generation. >> Uh so we know cases when a short period. of time can adjust our genetics and it's.

possible that in a few generations from. now we'll be more adapted to cell phones. or to whatever causes anxiety today. But. in general uh anything social, anything. um about our environment changes much. faster than our bodies and brains can. adapt. everything you're saying it's. just fascinating and I am going. spiraling down into like 500 different. questions after questions after. questions but let me come back to where. we started okay where the point is that.

you're a memory scientist what is memory. I have a few favorite ways to describe. what memory is. I'm trying to think of which one is the. best. I think the most uh universal. way to put what memory is.

is memory is a change that outlasts its. cause. It might seem a little too general. because this kind of memory. also applies to non-living systems. um like a financial market or even a. physical system like a spring uh or a. piece of dough. You you need that piece. of dough. You've modified it. You've put.

some sort of change into it. Then you. stop doing it and that change persists. the dose is a little more elastic. I. would call that memory and I am maybe. extreme among memory scientists in that. I wouldn't even put that memory in. quotation marks because uh what my. studies and the studies of other people. who look at memory in simple systems. show.

is that there is no line that separates. what we call memory. this this memory. that that I think about when I close my. eyes and think about yesterday. There's. no line that separates that from. the memory of a kidney cell about five. pulses of a chemical. That memory works on the exact same. molecules. that the memory in the brain does. From.

the perspective of a neuron of a brain. cell in your brain, all that it sees is. chemicals coming from other cells and. the chemicals that I send out to yet. other cells. So the memory of that. neuron is how do I change in response to. what I receive. so as to produce more or less of my. chemicals. That's all that it knows. It. doesn't know anything about the world. It doesn't know anything about where. those chemicals come from. It just.

registers a pattern of chemicals in time. changes. and then that change continues to act. even after what caused it has seized. >> There is no line that separates that. experience of a neuron from a exactly. the same experience of a kidney cell. Yes, a kidney cell doesn't have billions. of partners that send it intricate. patterns of chemicals. Yeah, it receives. simpler signals. uh salts and nutrients. and hormones passing through. There' be.

fewer of them, but still a lot. And what. it does is uses the same internal. circuitry, the same internal mechanisms. to then produce a change that outlasts. what caused it. And that modifies the. kidney cell, it modifies the brain cell, and it modifies our our life. So when. you start trying to drill down on what. is the difference between proper memory. and memory memory you find that there is.

no such line. It's a gradual progression. from from from less complex things. memorized to more things and more. complex things memorized but there's. never a cut off that separates one from. another. So that used to be a sticking. point for me after we published that big. paper a couple years ago about memory. and kidney cells. every reporter wanted. to put that memory in quotation marks. and I would fight by saying no that's. the whole point that it is real memory. it's just as real as uh the memory in. your brain uh Mike Lean uh used a great.

example that I I thought was really. relevant uh he said it's like imagine. when when Newton put out his theory of. gravitation. uh somebody came to him and said Newton. why are you calling this force that. holds planets together the same thing as. the force that causes things to fall. They're clearly different things. Why. don't you just use two different terms. for them? The whole point of that theory.

is that it's the same force. And in the. same way, the whole point of our. research is that it's the same process. It's the same kind of thing that's. evolutionarily doing the same um thing. in brain cells and in any other cell. And so I am radical in that to me a. memory is a very simple thing. It's a. change that outlastes cause. >> So if memory is a change, if you have. certain strong memories and if you keep. repeating it in your brain, it can.

change your current life and future life. and it can change the way you think, see, perceive, act in your life. Right. >> Of course. So, so we're saying that. if you want to change your. present, if you want to change your. future, you need to change your brain. >> And memory is a very strong way to do. that. Right. >> Sure. >> But what changes a human brain more? Is. it an emotion? Is it information? Is it.

repetition? Or is it a powerful. accident which changes? >> You know what we humans find most. salient. is not. information by itself. It's how much that information. contradicts. our internal model. And so in the psychology of persuasion.

um it's a famous finding that. the trustworthiness. of a speaker. depends. on how much you perceive. that speaker is arguing against their. interest. because that is What's surprising. um there's this famous study about um um.

a prosecutor. versus a convicted criminal. arguing either for. stricter prosecution. or for more lenient prosecution. So you. have a two by 2 by two matrix. you have. this criminal Joe the shoulder I think. his name was uh versus this professional. prosecutor arguing for for for two. things and in general other things being.

equal we humans tend to trust people. with expertise more than people without. expertise however if Joe the shoulder. counterintuitively. argued for more prosecution that made. him more trustworthy than the prosecutor. arguing for the same thing because what. we register is not so much the content. of the message but how much that. deviates from what we expect from that.

person. We construct a model of that. person. We think yeah he's going to say. that that and that and that and if they. say that I already know it. I I don't. need to memorize anything. And your. brain just doesn't process it. But if it. sticks out of that model of that other. person, that's what really penetrates. into into memory and then that's what. you remember. So I think the key is. recognizing that. incoming information matters just as.

much as the model that's already there. And what you're trying to do is not just. push more information and but find ways. in which they don't align because that. is an opportunity for for learning and. for changing the model. So you're. telling me that if I go up on the stage. or if I go with. in a party in front of a group of. strangers, they like me more if I. surprise them. >> Yeah. even.

>> and not like isn't it counterintuitive. because a lot of people say that your. you people perceive you like like people. like you more. >> when they can predict your actions. >> Well, maybe there's a difference between. people liking you and people trusting. you. >> and people trust you when you surprise. them. >> People trust you more when you surprise. them. I think that's also. counterintuitive because um you our. intuition is that I shouldn't argue. against my interests and people will.

doubt what I'm even about. But it turns. out that if you argue against your. interests maybe in some small thing you. will establish more credibility for the. bigger thing that you want to uh to to. then advocate. So that is it is. counterintuitive but that's how our. perception works. We register when. somebody is doing something unexpected. and if it plays out in the way that they. say we say oh wow that is meaningful.

that's something that they said that we. didn't predict and that turned out to be. true therefore I can trust this person. That is the most efficient way to. to to get people to believe you. Yeah. So the best way to change a human brain. or rather let me rephrase it. A human. brain changes maybe because of. information, maybe because of. repetition, maybe because of emotion, maybe because of accident, but whatever. will have the maximum pattern disruption.

that will cause them to change. >> That is exactly right. And I think it. goes beyond. humanto human interaction. When we say. surprise, it's more than just something that we. didn't expect about the human world. It's also. senses that we don't usually experience. Uh for example, uh how do you. protect yourself against [snorts].

dementia? God forbid. And of course, we. can't completely control it, but what. can we do to um to lower the chances of. that? Use your brain to the maximum and. use it in unexpected ways like barefoot. walking for example. Uh barefoot walking. has a neuroprotective effect. Why? Because usually we don't experience. stimulation at the soles of our feet. We. wear shoes all the time. So that part of. our sensory experience is just not.

engaged. You engage it. That's the same. as surprise. That's something new that. flows into your cortical model that your. brain doesn't naturally expect and it. forces it to to recalibrate to. incorporate something new. So even that. can be a surprise. I guess the the the. point is that if you want to change you. have to find things that are different. >> and that surprises you. >> Yeah. >> And you know I'm I'm I'm connecting dots. with what you said. So you say so every.

time and tell me if it's wrong or right. if you have to be in front of people and. every time you have to let's say deliver. a speech or just impress a room what you. can do is. a be very. unpredictable [laughter]. >> that will probably make them remember. you. >> that people will remember you surprise. them and surprise them in the beginning.

and in the end because primacy and. recency. >> That's a good way to do it. >> In the middle, you can be likable, you. can be the predictable one. >> But if you want them to trust you more. >> in the primacy, you can actually do. something unpredictable and do something. predictable. And in the end, you want. them to remember so you do another an. unexpected thing. And that's how you can. just frame your entire talk every time. you're doing something. >> Yeah, I think that's a great technique. I think that people can use that. I. think what's also important to remember.

is that um surprise by itself is not. enough. You need to deliver on you you. need to have a payoff for that. uncertainty that you've created. >> Oh, >> if you just have uncertainty, that's. like uh infinite scroll or that's like. being on the slot machine. You want that. to resolve, but it never does. It's the. payoff. I was surprised. But then it. made sense. That's what will then.

establish trustworthiness. Well, since. that paid off, you know, whatever that. person will tell me, that's got to be. that's got to be true since that was. unexpected and yet it turned out to be. true. So, I think that it needs like in. music, it needs both the tension and the. resolution. But I think it's a good idea. to put it at the front end, put it in. the end, and then fill the rest with. just comfort food. [laughter]. Interesting. And tell me can two people. who are together can they experience.

this thing differently? Like for example. let's say can a couple go through an. exact same experience. and have different memory of it. >> Of course even a very close couple are. two different people. They see the world. with different eyes. They bring. different emotions into it and they will. certainly remember remember things. differently, >> but they'll have different versions in. their head of the same thing.

>> Of course, they do because your memory. is not a. >> it's not a snapshot. It's it's about how. you channel that through your own. perception. So thankfully we have. language which is really a incredibly. magical system in which you can pack any. thoughts in your brain. However. complicated and tangled they are. You. can pack them into those modular pieces.

of sound that you can put into the air. and fly to the next person. get unpacked. into frequencies in their ear gets. projected into their cortex and modify. their model of the world. That is an. incredible level of synchrony between. brains. Other animals don't have. anything like that. So I think with. language we can achieve much greater. synchrony between people than any other. animals can hope for. And that's really. what makes us humans distinct from from. from any other species. But that being.

said, even what we mean by different. words uh could be different for. different people. So you're never going. to achieve the exact replica of a. memory. There's no such thing as as my. memory being transported to you. Even if. we had some futuristic technology of. downloading a memory, we would not be. able to transfer it between two brains. just because you and I don't have the. same neurons and the same synapses. It. all is installed individually from a.

tangle that gets adapted to our own. experience and modifies itself to make. sense. But what my tangle evolves into. is not at all what your tangle evolves. into. And so there's just no no physical. space where you can take this memory and. put it into into the same space uh in. another person. You can just try to. recreate something similar. So then every time a couple is actually. going through something, they're going. through different things and no matter. how hard they try, they have to accept.

the truth and live with it. >> There's [laughter] no it's good thing. for good couples, bad thing for bad. couples. >> I think that we can still rely on the. assumption that another person. experiences. similar feelings than than than we do. just because emotions and uh motivation. and memory are. more ancient than than the distinction. between you and me and uh and any other.

person. So just because we know that we. belong to the same species, just because. we know that everything in the world. evolves in this branching tree that. we're all part of, I think we can rely. on the assumption that there is. something similar between us. There's no. proof that you are experienced anything. at all from my perspective. Maybe I'm. the only person who has consciousness. Yes, there is a philosophical position. that claims that too. But I think that.

if you accept evolution as the source of. all living things, that gives you. confidence that there are similarities. between us and that I can assume that. you are experiencing something similar. to me when I feel that we're on the same. page. See this gets me to the it it. circles in my head. It gets me back to. the starting point, right? Where you. said if we believe that evolution is the. source of probably everything.

then according to evolution. Our brains are designed to survive and. everything since then whoever's whoever. has been able to survive they've passed. on those genes to the another generation. another generation and today whatever we. have it's probably because of the. survival instinct and survival genes. right then if my brain is designed to. survive can I turn it and change it and. make it.

into or design it into to win today we. are in a world of abundance. There's everything. You're comfortable, right? You don't have to go out and. hunt. So, you're lazy. You're just at. your home watching this podcast and just. not. >> doing anything at all. Right. >> Okay. Okay. So, >> can you. can you turn this person who's become. lazy and not motivated at all.

by doing something to their brain and. get them back to survival mode where. they enter this winning mode again? >> Mhm. I think the question is what is. this procrastinating person actually. doing? >> Nothing at all. >> Well, you said is they're watching. podcasts. >> I meant like they're they're watching. Netflix. They're binge watching stuff. They're just eating, drinking, living on. their parents' money. I don't know what. they're doing, but they're just. definitely not doing something. productive. >> Evolution doesn't have a problem with.

that. As long as you can survive, evolution doesn't care. [laughter] When. the money the money of the parents runs. out, well, then maybe that person will. be motivated to do to do something else. And then you enter your survival mode. To enter survival mode, you have to. think that your survival is under. threat. Can you design that. artificially? Because today I doubt. a small minority of people who are.

privileged they'll ever get into the. survival mode. >> Mhm. >> And what if they want to change? There's. little motivation. There's something. inside them that it tells them that hey, enough is enough. I want to change. >> Mhm. Well, they're not motivated enough. They already have that motivation. It. has to come from somewhere. then that. means that they're not quite comfortable. with being a procrastinator. That means. that somewhere deep down. >> they are already in that survival mode. So it's not. >> but yet they're not changing. >> Can they do something to their brain. where they create this artificial.

survival? >> Mhm. Well, if they if the motivation. exists but they can't quite get there, I. think the problem is not that they don't. want to get there, but that something. from the current situation is preventing. them from pushing themselves over that. ledge that they realize that they have. to push themselves over. So, I think. it's a question of what's holding them. in that old mindset rather than what. would drag them into the new one. And. what is holding them there? It must be. those comforts. It must be the podcasts.

It must be the social media or whatever. else they they they might be doing. It. must be that their motivational system. finds enough motivation in that. Nobody. has no motivation. If you had no. motivation, you would be like that. mouse. You would just be motionless and. and doing nothing and that would feel. horrible. So, you do have motivation to. do something. It's just not directed. towards the things that you consciously. decided are important. So it's a.

misalignment between your rational. decision between what you have. constructed in your mind is important. for you and what your reward system says. is important for you. Your reward system. thinks that scrolling is important and. you're saying no scrolling is not. important. It's XYZ that is important. So that's what we're really talking. about. How do you get yourself out of. this? Well, at some point you have to. put away the social media and let your. brain recalibrate and put away that. thing that you are currently doing or. cut off that funding from your parents.

that is makes you comfortable. If you. want to do that, if you already decided. that that's what needs to be done, there. is some kernel of that motivation that. exists in you and it's a question of. finding enough strength to start. gradually removing the things that hold. you back. >> [snorts]. >> I think the most optimistic thing that I. can say is that brains are plastic. They. can recalibrate. Whatever feels like it. will never change. This is how I am. might change in a couple of weeks if you.

just let it give it space to to do that. >> Interesting. So you're saying just. if you are stuck at some position, you're a procrastinator, you're not able. to change, you're addicted to some kind. of. validation, drug, porn, mediocre life, whatever you're going through. >> The way to change that position is to. find a new reward system. The moment you. find a new reward system, probably.

you'll be more motivated to do that. because at the end of the day, your. brain just needs reward. >> Yeah, I think that's a good way to put. it. maybe a transitional point if that's. really impossible and you can't find. strength to do that, you can bundle what. you already want with what you think you. should be wanting. Like uh maybe you. have your favorite podcast, but you want. to go to the gym and you really can't. get yourself to go to the gym, but you. love listening to that podcast. What you.

could do is tell yourself, I will only. listen to that podcast when I am in the. gym. do that a few times and you will. feel that going to the gym becomes a lot. more attractive. >> So that's maybe a way to hack that uh. that system a little bit so that you. don't have to just cut off an entire. motivational uh schema and replace it. with with a new one at once. Maybe you. can bridge it by bundling some things. together. >> Interesting. Well, here's my here are my.

last two questions which I ask almost. all my guests. One is what is one advice. nobody should follow? What is one advice nobody should follow? To think about this for a second. Well, maybe I can say this. Uh. what my research shows.

is that. every cell of the body. registers. what's happening to it. on the scale of minutes. A cell can. distinguish a pattern of. 3 minutes, 10 minutes, then 3 minutes. again four times from just 12 minutes at. once. This is a very short intervals. So. what that means is that your entire body.

is constantly retaining those fine. patterns of your experience. And where that can take you. is obsession. with. what your body memorizes. This can lead. you to a dark place. If you consider. every single thing that is happening to. you and what consequence it might have. in the future, this might become a way.

worse obsession than obsession with. healthy lifestyle. We can take this. healthy lifestyle to such an extreme. that our lives will become unlivable. So. the advice that follows from my research. is that you should follow. you should the advice that follows from. my research is that you should listen to. your body and think about all those fine. patterns so that your life gets. optimized in the future. But I don't. think that's an advice that anybody. should follow because that is just too. much control over your own body and mind.

and that would just not be human. >> So just surrender. Well, there's different levels of surrender, but I think we have to have some level. of surrender to live a happy life. [laughter]. >> Interesting. And here's something that I. love asking people is what is. the personal cost. that you have paid in order to become a. memory scientist?

Probably missed out on a lot of parties. [laughter]. That's a good cost. >> No, I've had plenty of those, too. Uh, I. love being a scientist. I don't know any. other way to be. Uh, it's not a. profession. It's a it's a way of. thinking and I can't think uh in any. other way. So if I weren't a memory. scientist, I would be some other.

scientist and I would be digging as. deeply into problems of quantum physics. or atmospheric science uh that uh as I. am digging into the problems of memory. So I think that one came to me for free. >> Perfect. Thank you so much. It was. pleasure to have you. It was an honor. >> Thank you so much. Thank you for. watching this episode till the end. We. would love to know what you liked or. disliked about this episode and which.

guests you would like to see on the. show. Let us know in the comments. Your. feedback help us improve and make every. episode a little better. I'll see you. next time. Until then, keep figuring. out.