Indian History SHOCKING Facts You Never Knew ft. Historian Dr. Vikram Sampath | FO 92 - Raj Shamani

All our gods and goddesses are shown. with weapons in their hands. That is not. for ornamentation. That is for attacking. what you think is a dharma. Gandhi said, you know, I'm not talking about a. political stuff. I'm going to talk about. Ram Rajya and its establishment and how. it's so important and how non-violence. is important and all that. And then he. steps aside and Savarkar takes a podium. saying, "What is absolute non-violence? Even to establish that Ram Rajya, Ram. had to go to Lanka and kill Ravan after. waging a war." He didn't go there and.

sit on Satyagraha saying, "Give Sita. back." And he said, "Okay, chalo. I'll. give her back to you." And even in the. Gita, it's your duty, your dharmic duty. to. kill the person if that person is on the. side of a dharma. Do you feel all of. this having Mahatma Gandhi on the. currency? Yeah. Right? It's largely because of. political gain. On figuring out we talk about future and. how can you build a better tomorrow to. achieve all your dreams? But you cannot build a better tomorrow. if you don't understand your past, if.

you don't understand the history of. where you come from. That's why in. today's episode, we have the historian. Dr. Vikram Sampath to talk about the. history which we have not learned in. school. We've talked about the ideology. of Veer Savarkar versus Gandhiji, why. there's focus on just Mughal empires, not on any other empire, why in India. we've always been taught about history. of Delhi, not about the southern region, not about the northeastern region, why. there's always focus on British empires. and India are losing in every battle.

We have tried to uncover these lessons. from the past and the ideologies where. we come from and why there are certain. things which are still the same from the. history. And if you feel. that history is really boring, then. today's episode is for you because we. have tried to make it super interesting. from somebody who's a historian and. talks about real facts. Also, if you. feel that podcasts are super long, then.

you can check out channel Rajamani clips. where we have tried to cover all the. clips and the interesting topics in. different genres. You'll get to learn. about politics, business, startups, history, future, and so many different. topics which will make you really a. smart mind and be prepared for tomorrow. Please check out the channel and enjoy. today's show. All right, I want to pick up on. something because I think your career.

started because. of movies. I mean, sort of. Yeah. Serials, right? Like that's what you. know, it all started, right? Because you. saw a fiction on new on a television. Yeah. Right? And that's how I think in. modern times most of the people start. thinking about history or get fascinated. by history because we see some of the. other movie and then we're like, "Wow, we want to get more into it. We want to. understand more, right?" Yeah. I saw. like everything. I started with Legends. of Hanuman to enter like I got I got.

super fascinated by everything what they. were showing and how the whole animation. worked, right? And then I recently saw a. series called Taj. Aha. That actually. led me to think more about and read more. about what Mughals did, right? Then. there was the one Sardar Udham. that was again something which took me. to make or janne or karne. So, I think. these movies. play a like huge role Mhm. in sparking.

that curiosity in you Yeah. and making. sure that you're studying about a lot of. these things, right? Correct. So, what's your what's your. take on certain movies is what you want. to ask. Okay, there are like certain movies in. India which have had crazy adaptations. So, one of them is Bajirao Mastani. What. do what do you think about? You're going to get me in a in trouble. if I ever want any of my books to get. adapted by the those filmmakers, it'll. depend on my answers here. No, of course you'll get the right.

right person to, you know, make a movie. on one of your books. No, I mean, you. see, I think overall Bollywood the way. they look at history is. and it's. it's no value judgment. It's just that. they look at historical characters also. largely by yardsticks of today. Unnecessarily there has to be a romance. angle fitted into it. There has to be some song and dance. sequence which is unrelated. So, many things like even Bajirao, I think though it was cinematic tically.

very beautifully done and Mr. Bhansali, of course, is a master, you know, storyteller and filmmaker. But, you. know, the. the the takeaway for the audience is. like Bajirao is all but a romantic hero. Yeah. And he was pining for her. Mastani's love and people, of course, the flip side is a lot of people went to. Pune and Shaniwar Wada and saw the. palace there and so on which nobody. would go to. So, some curiosity was. generated. But Bajirao was much more.

than that. He was one of the. greatest of the Peshwas. before the of course the Panipat war. After that you had Madhavrao. But. Bajirao the first was someone who. established the Peshwa and the Maratha. empire, you know, if after Chhatrapati. Shivaji Maharaj there was someone, it. was him. So, for someone like that who. had. his how he needs to be remembered is not. as a lovesick. Romeo, but as a as a great warrior, you. know. becomes an unintended consequence that.

everyone is concentrating only on the. Mastani angle of his life which even. chroniclers of that time have not really. gone so much into the depth of the. personal lives and so on. So, that is an. unintended and sad, you know, consequence when the movie masala is. added into, I think, while it makes the. characters accessible and maybe human, the problem is this that what remains in. people's memory is probably Mastani.

the in the case of that serial, if. someone who's seen that Sanjay Khan. episode, if you ever say Wodeyar, they'll remember that fat king who is, you know, dancing with a court dancer. almost emasculated. That sort of a thing. So, it's a very. potent medium to create lasting. impressions in people's minds about. characters. So, I think the responsibility of the. filmmaker, the. script writers and all that is all the. more, you know, intense as to how they portray. these people. And that is why most.

historical. movies end up with controversy. Whether. it was Padmaavat, whether it was Jodhaa. Akbar, even. Bajirao also I think had some. So, because people are sensitive about how. their heroes and heroines are portrayed. So, that I think they need to take extra. care and caution to see that the facts. are adhered to or whatever however they. show is to the maximum extent backed by. facts because you are perpetuating that. person's legacy and image in the minds.

of people, particularly the youth of the. country. There are few movies who were well. received by the audience and they showed. like the bravery, the wars, and. everything of that sort. I don't know. how true or false that is because my. understanding is only limited to the. movies because that's how we get to. understand history in today's world. One. of them was Tanhaji. Have you Like what. was Do you think that that movie what. they showed was the real side? I've. unfortunately not seen the movie, so I. wouldn't know. But, I heard it was.

comparatively a much better adaptation. Yeah, adherence to the original, you. know, facts of history. It's a very. tight, you know, difficult game and I. think that is one reason why filmmakers. also shy away from. period films. One is of course they're. so costly to make, to recreate that era, the sets and all of that. But along with. that they know that, you know, unless. you get this element right, it can lead. to a lot of backlash. So, though Indian history is so full of.

so much of drama, so much of intrigue, you know, romance, battles, conspiracies, they don't form part of, you know, filmatic adaptations in India. At least in recent times. In regional. cinema it's much better. Whether it is, you know, South Indian cinema in Kannada. or Telugu and Tamil and all that, many. of these heroes and others have been. portrayed and those have somehow managed. to stick to the original essence.

as essence of the person and they. haven't led to so much of uh. you know, backlash and controversy as probably. Hindi cinema does. Do you Do you. remember any Hindi movie or any movie. for that that matter in India which you. felt like, "Okay, this is one of the. good adaptations." Of a historical? Of a historical movie. Any movie which. you liked? To be honest, no. So, movies play an important role and. you feel in movies they should be. showing a holistic version of the.

essence or or the protagonist instead of. just one side of the protagonist which. shapes the history. more care needs to. be taken into the research element when. it comes to historical figure. Not, you. know, look at multiple sources, get a. proper historian on board as a period. consultant or an expert, and actually. ensure that all the, you know, elements. are well laid out and the character of. the protagonist comes through. Of. course, I understand, you know, it's a.

different medium, so cinematic. adaptation, there is some creative. liberties that one need to take, but it. needs to be within the. boundaries of acceptability by and. large. Yeah. Very tough to define it. It's a very. intangible commodity. But still, it. needs to be to the maximum extent well. researched, backed with. evidence, then people will not Like. yeah, if maybe one movie which you say. not in made in India but the Gandhi film.

which Attenborough had made. I mean all. all through there was. of course there was a little bit of. dramatization and so on but still it. didn't deviate so much from the main. theme of you know Gandhi's life and we. all got an essence and I think the world. got an understanding of what Gandhi was. I think he became a global brand more. because of that film right and when it. went on to win Oscars and all the awards. it won it a different uh. essence and it's so unfortunate that it.

we needed a foreigner to make a film on. the father of the nation of India and. all the Indian movies on Gandhi have not. done so well right. So many people have made films on him. right from Shyam Benegal to others but. those have not created that kind of. impact we can't even remember the names. of some of those as much as. Attenborough's. Gandhi and Ben Kingsley. So world over. everyone thinks Gandhi was this handsome. charming man like Ben Kingsley was.

So. Interesting but but then I I feel. though in movies they kind of. they only show one side or maybe they. focus on and they don't care too much. about the character or whatever for that. reason. I think it's important because. if it was not for movies I would have. never been interested in history at all. because schools made it so bad like. there was my history teacher okay I. forgot her name but I can still see her.

like in my eyes she's there. She used to. put take the pen in middle of fingers. and then she used to do this because I. would not remember ki 1947 me kya hua. hai 1965 me kya hua hai ya 1826 me kya. hua like just random dates because it. was just that too much they never. painted a beautiful picture the way you. know the movies show or the story tells. or the like the likes of what you're. doing right now. So is the trauma. playing out when you're talking to a. historian today? childhood trauma. Not yet not.

Not yet. I remember. I remember I I got once I was punished. and I was. thrown out of my class. because Battle of Panipat ke upar koi. question tha or I didn't remember and. Mhm. It was just. Which of the three? You know there were three? Yeah I know three. I know there were three that I know by. heart now. But huh that was like that is how it. started so if you were given an option. would you change the way history is.

being taught in school? Oh yes. Or in syllabus like what would you add. and what would you remove completely? No. I think everything I mean it needs a. complete. change in the way it is you know. structured. One is of course as I. mentioned earlier our history itself as. you. might also remember it's so. focused and centered around Delhi and. North India. Yeah. And when you say. history of India I think every part of. India needs to get. a place in it. We know so little about.

do we even know about the North East. kingdoms? We've not even heard of some of the. names. So like the Wodeyars of Mysore. who ruled for 600 years in the Assam you. had the Ahom's who again ruled for 600. years. and throughout that period they kept. Assam invincible for any kind of foreign. aggression but you ask any. child today or even. you know non children today name a.

couple of Ahom rulers or one Ahom ruler. or something none of us would even be. able to. you know bring that to our recollection. So does that mean those people were not. part of the history of India or does. Assam doesn't belong to this country or. the North East does not belong similarly. South India doesn't feature in the. manner it should. I don't know if the. books have changed now but when seen. last the. NCERT books that are there which people. can you know download from the website.

freely. in one of the class seven or eight or. something you know. the only reference to Chhatrapati. Shivaji Maharaj is a photograph with a. caption below it saying whose photograph. it is. So a young child growing up in India. knows about someone as iconic as him. only that much. So the Marathas are also given hardly. any space. the Cholas the mighty Cholas whose who. ensured we have a had a maritime. trade and also maritime conquests as far.

as South East Asia Sri Vijaya and. Maldives Sri Lanka and all these places. they probably take half a paragraph or. one paragraph in the current you know. books. The Vijayanagara Empire. all these great you know empires and. dynasties they don't get the space. they require and you know the over. emphasis whereas in comparison you will. have three chapters on the Mughals. So. every child in India would be able to. you know.

memorize and also narrate the succession. lines of all the Mughals. The same. cannot be said of Rashtrakuta or a Chola. or a Chalukya. dynasty of South India because that is. not given importance. These are all. you know sidelined as regional. histories. What is regional what is. mainstream is Delhi mainstream is every. other part of India just a small little. subservient part can the Maratha Empire. which was so vast that actually the. British took over India not from the. Mughals but from the Marathas. So for.

100 years the whole of India was. virtually under the control of the. Marathas from Attock to Cuttack as they. used to say and up to down south till. Rameshwaram they had such a vast you. know sphere of influence. but how much of that translates into. understanding for a child who's growing. up? Right so their understanding only limits. to Bajirao and Mastani and the love. songs and all of that. So the the the so. while I agree that you know history is. not just a list of.

dynasties and kings and queens even when. it comes to people's histories. do we know so about the the various. indigenous tribes of North East India? 400 plus. indigenous tribes they have so many. different dialects languages very. different musical instruments dances. food you know. cuisines and all of that. Those also don't form part of the larger. theme. So I think one is to make the.

history of India more interesting to. include all parts of India to give as. much importance to. men and women which is what I have tried. to do in my book Bravehearts of Bharat. and also to you know one more. major flaw which I see is even if you. know if you remember all the battles. that are listed or we study growing up. are a long laundry list of battles that. we lost. You know right from the Greeks and.

you know Alexander you know invading to. the Shakas the Huns then the Arab. invasion of Sindh then the Turks Ghazni. Ghori then you have the Mongols and the. then the Timurids the Mughals who came. in then you have of course the all the. Europeans Portuguese French the British. the Dutch. So everywhere one after the. other the battles battles of Panipat. that you mentioned Battle of Buxar. Battle of Plassey Battle the the Battle. of Tarain.

you have the Anglo-Mysore Wars. Anglo-Maratha Wars Anglo-Sikh Wars all. of it the common feature India and. Indians lost. So today if we are still. around you know as the only pre-Bronze. Era civilization which is alive there. must have been some battles we won also. some courage that we showed also as a. civilization. So which are those battles. who are those heroes and heroines who. put you know a defense and resistance? I. think that needs to be a holistic you.

know sense because according to me. history is not just a discipline you. know while like you even I hated it. while growing up as you grow older you. realize that this is a it's not it's not. just a subject which you ratta maro and. then try to. pass exams or whatever but it is a. mirror in which you can identify. yourself as a nation as a civilization. as a people. It gives you a sense of. identity it roots you to your to your.

you know identity itself and so unless. we have our roots firmly in the ground. we really cannot chart a future for. ourselves and today when India is so. poised to expand its wings and grow. you know in all ways militarily. economically and so on and population. wise also. unless we have a clear understanding of. our past and a narrative of the grand.

Indian narrative you know in the 5000. years or whatever of recorded Indian. history. what was the contribution of our. ancestors to human knowledge in various. fields. It could be you know mathematics. chemistry alchemy metallurgy medicine. yoga well wellness you know mind body. soul connection philosophy linguistics. phonetics every field you know sciences. and everything unless we get that sense.

that you know these are the aspects that. we can be genuinely proud of of our. ancestors and their achievements both. militarily both in the production of. knowledge because we've always been a. knowledge seeking society. So unless we get that we will be a very. ruthless civilization our future. generations we We become the third. largest economy we may have the nuclear. bomb, we may have many other things, but. if you do not have pride for your own. nation. and where we have come from, all of that.

I think becomes very futile. And I think. China understood that well and they. built the large, you know, the larger. Chinese narrative, the grand Chinese. narrative. Good or bad, I'm not, you know, getting. into that, you know, considering it was. a it's a dictatorial communist regime, but. the understanding of the past the main. takeaway from that is. understanding of the past is so. essential to chart a glorious future. So, to that extent, that is what a. school textbook needs to do.

Rather than create, you know, people. like us who have only nightmares about. our history teachers and history. classes, it should be an enjoyable thing. which takes you on a fascinating journey. into your own past and everything that. it has to offer and give you hope for. the future. So, do you feel that. I think. now that we're talking about it and we. all admit that. history needs to be. taught in a better way, do you think. that our government is now taking.

initiatives to include history in a. certain way or they're not doing it at. all because it has been. this problem, if you have identified, if. thousands of people identified, I go. through the same problem, right? I'm. sure like a lot of people must have. identified this problem. But over the. years, don't you think the government. tried to change something? Because if. the whole history was just about Delhi, it was not inclusive of the whole. country, there has to be some agenda, some. narrative by someone who painted it, right? But now that is being carried.

forward to. Yeah. So, do you think that. it's time that we change it or do you. feel that government is doing already. something to change it? I don't think so. because unfortunately, I don't see. though there have been. a lot of talks including by the current. dispensation that there needs to be a. change. They have instituted committees. and all of that to gather information. from different parts of, you know, crowd. sourcing of information. There was a. parliamentary standing committee also. under Dr. Vinay Sahasrabuddhe which, you.

know, collated all these information. from different people. But finally, the. proof of the pudding is in eating it. So, till the time the books actually. change, which shouldn't take so long. I. mean, it takes maybe 6 months to put a. bunch of, you know, 10, 12 scholars into a room. and say, "Hey, listen, I we need to have. a different uh view." So, unless there. is that a strategic thinking, an overall. idea, just changing for the heck of. changing it is not what it needs to be.

Add this, remove this. So, we have all. these controversies. Remove Mughal. history, remove this. Those type of things are meaningless. because you can't wish away your past. What has happened, I don't like XYZ, that doesn't mean you just remove that. person. You have to show the good, bad. and the ugly to the student and let that. person let the young person decide. We. don't have to undermine the intelligence. of a young person in India at all saying. this is what you need to read or that. you should not read. So, I think so governments of the day, they.

they are so ridden with bureaucratic you. know, the way they go around that I. think. this doesn't seem to be priority for. them at all unless it becomes a people's. movement and people say. there's more and more outrage on the. people's front that we don't want our. children, our grandchildren to read. a distorted version or an incomplete. version of Indian history, the. governments will just continue doing. what they do. They have. other priorities,

you know, defense of the country, ensuring the. economy is in order, so many other. things which are much higher on the. agenda than school textbook of history. So, I wouldn't completely blame them, but. civil society also needs to take up. that, you know, responsibility. a movement. A movement where especially. uh through online mediums like this. which reach out to so many people. I. mean, if there's a petition on. petition.org or whatever where people,

you know, 10 crore people just sign up. and say we want a more inclusive, a more. honest and a more undistorted version of. our history taught to our children. More than numbers, governments, political parties, politicians only. respond to numbers and vote banks and, you know, you know, those kind of things. So, democracy is finally a system of. competing lobbies. So, so if you're this is something important. for you, you need to lobby for it in the.

right way. and get the action done. Otherwise, expecting them to have the knowledge and. the sensitivity about every little thing. is a little unrealistic. Interesting. So, okay, I'm just going back to the one. level be. before we actually completed this, you. said a lot of our textbook includes. Mughal and we kind of know a lot of. Mughal leaders, but not other leaders, right? And for fortunate, unfortunate, whatever reason, why do you feel it's. there?

Because I remember I've been taught. about Humayun, Akbar, Shah Jahan, Aurangzeb, right? And it goes on. Yeah. Yeah. It just why Babur like. I don't even remember so many names, but. yeah, these are the most amount of names. you would remember from any random. person in India. Yeah. Who would know. maximum about just Mughal history. Why. do you feel like there's a is there a. reason that we just read so much about. just Mughals?

So, I think, you know, particularly. after independence, the education system itself. and was in the hands of several people. and it was. uh largely I think, you know, textured. by ideological tilts of the Marxist. kinds. And the Aligarh Muslim University, the. and the kind of HRD ministers we had. from Nurul Hasan to Maulana Azad to so. many others who ensured that, you know,

it was the. aftermath of partition. This country was partitioned on communal. lines. and the violence, the bloodshed that. followed with so many, you know, lakhs. and lakhs of people were displaced, lost. their lives and there was an animosity. towards a particular community. because. that was the basis for the partition of. the country. So, these people. felt, rightly or wrongly, in retrospect.

wrongly, that. you know, all the uncomfortable aspects. of Indian history needs need not be. told. And this included particularly the. Islamic conquests for about 800, 900. years, the the rule over India was from, you. know, Central Asia, Middle East, all the Islamic rulers. And someone like. an American historian Will Durant has. called the Islamic conquest of India as. one of the bloodiest.

tales of human history, not just Indian, but human. You know, Professor K.S. Lal, a. historian, has estimated that just in. 500 years between. 1000. CE and 1526 when the Delhi Sultanate was. established, something like 8 crores was. the population of the subcontinent which. declined. So, 8 crore people, a genocide. of so many largely non-Muslims was. committed here. You had historian.

Sitaram Goel who said something like a. minimum of 40,000 temples. being destroyed, very, you know, conservative estimate. And we see that everywhere. The Qutb. Minar, so many, you know, monuments were built after destroying. local, you know, Hindu, Buddhist, Jain, you know, shrines of worship. Women from the subcontinent were taken. away to distant lands as sex, you know, slaves.

Even at the height of the Mughal Empire, you had things like the jizya, the tax. that all non-Muslims had to pay. to even live a respectable life. And. jizya formed, I think, almost 15 to 20%. of the revenue of the Mughal Empire even. at the heights of its glory. And under. Aurangzeb, you know, how the iconoclasm. where everything from Mathura to Kashi. Vishwanath, all these temples were. broken. Now, but. post-independence, particularly under.

all these eminences whom I mentioned, it almost became imperative that let's. let's not talk about all this. Let's put. all this under the carpet because this. is very uncomfortable. This is talking. about all of this will upset today's. social harmony, which I don't know why it should because. I keep saying this time and time again, the a young Muslim man or woman today in. India is not responsible for what Ghazni. and Ghori and Aurangzeb, Tipu Sultan,

all these other, you know, barbarians. did. Similarly, we should try to. dehyphenate today's communities from all. these invaders. And though a lot of. them, you know, several people. glorify these, you know, barbaric leaders including, you know, you have political parties and. their people going to the mazar of. Aurangzeb and. offering tributes, whereas he was he was. I mean, imagine, you know, in Germany or Israel, you have. a monument in honor of Hitler and people.

the the Jews are asked to go and offer. tribute. So, something similar here. where. you there are a lot of people who. glorify these. these people. which should not be, you know, allowed. And we need to dehyphenate communities, tell them that uh. these are not your heroes. Uh your heroes you were as much a victim. of the atrocities that these people. committed rather than, you know, whitewash their crimes and present a.

very very sanitized. um version of history. Because when you. throw things under the carpet. uh and think that thing uh it did not. happen at all, I think truth has a very. uncomfortable manner of resurfacing. And. when it resurfaces, it creates social. tensions. So time and time again I keep. mentioning that, you know, the the. edifice of national unity, of social. cohesion, it cannot rest on the shaky. foundations of whitewashed history. Uh.

it's a very very loose foundation. At. the slightest breeze it will fall down. Uh so instead, tell the truth as it is. without any, you know, fear and favor. Whatever uh uh atrocities, oppressions, there were caste oppressions, there were. these Islamic conquests. Talk about all. of them. And the idea for the future. should be one, you should learn from. these mistakes that these will not be. committed again. Uh and we need to move. forward, heal the wounds of the past.

We're a wounded civilization. Um. uh and so we need to heal those wounds. and move on with a positive outlook for. the future. Assuming that the wound. never happened will make the cancer. grow, uh you know, rather than eliminate. the wound. So in India's history in uh. particularly, that healing process I. think has not happened. Instead, we. glorify these people. As you say, there. is more emphasis on a lot of these. uh people who came from the outside.

Yeah. Uh and they may have been born in. India and all that, but still their uh. you know, their. affinity, their uh this thing was from. where they came from. And that's so. natural. If you come from some place, you have a more affinity for where you, you know, invaded uh from. So I think. that. closure when it comes to historical. topics, we need to uh look into. World. over, you know, you have the Holocaust. museums. Uh that doesn't mean people are. celebrating the Holocaust. You go there,

you revisit those horrors, and you make. a pledge that we will not allow this to. happen again. I think that's sort of a. closure uh we need in India. Uh if that. doesn't happen, then history will become. a battlefield, which it continues to uh. now. Every now and then, whether it was. a Ram Janmabhoomi uh case, or whether, you know, now this renaming of. uh different places, all these fissures. will keep erupting. Because as I said, if the foundation is shaky, the building. cannot stand. Uh it will collapse at.

some point, and that will lead to social. unrest. So while the intentions may have. been very good, uh while. you know, all these uh syllabi and so on. might have been. uh you know, uh formulated that in the. aftermath of partition we need to do. this and that, but in the long term, it. doesn't help the country. Uh and I think. that. cognizance uh is what um. you know, historians and curriculum. creators and government and everyone. need to accept and acknowledge. Okay,

turning the gears, you you met PM Modi. Mhm. Right. How was meeting PM Modi for. you? Yeah, met him a couple of times, and I think. each time. Couple of times. Now, tell me, each time. what? Each time was a quite a great experience. because I think. uh. you know, I'm completely not affiliated. to any political party. uh or in any way directly or indirectly, but I saw in this man a kind of passion, a kind of uh you know, the the aura and.

the energy that he exudes. is one of a man on a mission. Uh you. know, never. never resting, uh. constantly active. I remember one of the. meetings that was there went on for 3. long hours. And while a lot of us who. are probably half his age kind of zoned. out, uh this man was constantly on. And. he had already at the end of a long day, uh he had had three, four, five. uh. engagements already. And post this. meeting, there was two, three more for.

the rest of the night. Uh and despite that, someone who was. active mentally, uh physically of. course, but mentally also, and at that. age. uh to be able to do that um speaks of a. lot about the man's commitment for the. country and uh you know, the cause that. he believes uh he's working for. Um and. the other, you know, inspirational thing. that I see is the amount of hatred that. is. uh hurled at him.

Um. but for anyone else, you know, and as a. historian, I get probably a one small. fraction of the amount of hatred he. receives. Uh and it rattles me. It uh. you know, sometimes now I've started. slowly growing a thicker hide. But. there's so much of hatred, allegations, uh all kinds of things because anyone. who speaks the truth is a heretic. So. so it it upsets the existing apple cart. And so that is a problem. Uh but I always wondered, what does this.

man do to actually not be affected? Uh. you know, it's not easy when people are. constantly. uh hurling negativity at you to actually. keep your energy field uh. clean enough out of all of that. I think. it needs some amount of. uh without spiritual sadhana and so on, you can't do that. Who do you think like. can make a great PM? Apart from the like. who do you think is a good candidate for. PM? Oh my god. I'm just asking like for my personal.

curiosity. I think maybe uh Yogi. Adityanath would be quite a interesting. person to see there. Uh of course, it's. going to create ripples across the. world. That uh you know, a saffron-clad monk uh standing at the. UN General Assembly and talking will be. quite a sight to behold. But yeah, if. that's what destiny has to offer him, so. be it. Let's see how that goes. Because. yeah, he's turned around. uh UP in such a big way uh in the last 5. years. And to control that state is no.

mean task. Uh you know, the kind of law. and order situation where. uh the mafia would run amok. Uh and. people's. uh lives, whether it was women or men or. whoever, uh the kind of things that we. saw earlier uh is not what it is. And. infrastructure uh development and all of. that that is there. I think he's doing. pretty well. If so someone can control. that kind of mess, uh would be much. better to. control a larger country like India,

which is so chaotic. I think it needs to. be a combination of both development. Uh. we look at only development, but also. who can uh you know, hold country. together. Yeah. So So yeah, maybe he's probably. You know, also I love like what he. recently did and trying to at least do. that he's trying to. look at state's development and process. the way corporate look at their. businesses. Yeah. Right. He's getting PwC or. Deloitte to think on strategies and.

stuff. Like that is. unheard of. Like never heard of this key. that state is now Yeah. getting consulted by the big force of. the world. So I think that sort of. healthy uh you know, uh like between. corporates, competitors trying to see my. state is better than yours. I think some. of that is coming up now in even social. indices. Like the Swachh Bharat Mission. and the survey that goes. Uh all the. cities are ranked, right? Uh so for the longest time I think. Indore.

uh. tops the list. So I. have been to Indore just a couple of. weeks back among many other, you know, trips to the city. I see that sense of. pride even among the common people that. Hamara shehar jo hai sabse uh swachh. shehar hai. And people also participate. in this movement. It can't be a top-down. approach of government doing everything. It has to be bottom-up where people also. are not not throwing kachra on the. street, they're not littering. So though. they have all their Sarafa Bazaar and. those food.

street food things, you see an element. of cleanliness which the people have. also, you know, come up. And they want. to maintain this. That we want to be the. number one city in this in index. So I. think those uh that competitiveness in a. nice way, uh just like how the corporates do, is. what would lead to profitability for the. corporates and good governance in the. case of states and cities. Just a fun. fact, if you didn't know, I'm from. Indore. Oh ho, so that's why you said. I.

didn't know that, so it was not to. massage your ego at all. No, I'm from Indore. I moved to Bombay 2. years ago, and I've been part of this. movement of Swachh Bharat. Oh wow. And we everybody in Indore feels. so proud. Yes. And I've seen that change in front. of me because as when you're a kid, you. are telling your family, your relatives, your friends and their families ki achha. nahi kachra mat feko, aap utha lo. And. we used to be my group, my friends, and. my sisters, we used to be one of those. if somebody throws litter on the road,

we would just pick up and put it, right? And we would hold it, and we would hold. a we would teach our parents that if I'm. the toffee khaye, we would hold that. wrapper till we reach our house and then. put it in dustbin, right? So you would. do that. As kids, I think everybody does. that. Yeah. But then slowly the whole city started. doing this. And I saw this change. I saw. that people are not throwing. litter anywhere in the city. And they. were picking up other people's litter. And Mysore is another city, I think. second or third in the ranking. And I. see that even there the amount of pride.

and there's always, why is Indore taking. the lead? We should do better. And. I think that is where people who, you. know, politically simply oppose. uh Mr. Modi uh and his policies. And. which is legitimate right of in a. democracy people have to oppose someone. has to be in government but they don't. understand that a lot of things that he. has done have thus become people's. movements. You know, it was not as if he designed. keep India clean even under the previous. regimes they were this movements of.

you know open defecation free ODF. schemes building public toilets and all. that. But the reach and to actually. involve people as I said this can't be. just some Babu sitting somewhere and. passing some you know paper here and. there unless people Jan Bhagidari if it. doesn't happen I don't think. these schemes can work. So one of the. biggest reasons why he's so successful. even electorally is he's taken a lot of.

people into several of his movements and. the labarti as they say you know in. there. it's become a community of their own. I. mean all those different schemes they. run to give gas cylinders and you know. toilets especially for women and so on. in rural areas. water to every home. So these type of. things. are something that touch people's lives. and then the support base obviously. grows. So how does someone counter that?

You can't say these things are not true. because the numbers are there the. people's lived experiences are there. As. you said from Indore. any years ago or 15 years ago it was not. the case right? This was not the feeling. in the people of Indore. Yeah. So what. who's driving that? What what is the. scheme that is you know driving that? So. someone just goes and disparages a. Swachh Bharat Abhiyan. and Indore wala will never vote for that. person right? And say who are you to. tell me this? I mean we are seeing the.

change on the ground and you don't even. know the reality and you are disparaging. it. So I think that becomes a problem. where I think very nicely they. combined all kinds of things social. engineering along with some of the. development schemes and all of that. which is what is helping them grow. electorally election after election. Interesting very interesting but now. we go back to history. We go back to. history but no no more than history I. was just saying that now their area of.

winning regions is now decreasing. So it was little up till last electoral. season they were only 21% of India was. not controlled or. you know. like not was was not under BJP. Yeah. Now there's 37% of India which is not. under BJP. Which is good. Which is very. good I think because. for two reasons. One is I think it. punctures that horrible and very.

perverse campaign that was going on. nationally and internationally that. democracy is dead in India that. everything is rigged and so on. So if democracy was indeed dead as even. people like that nefarious you know. Soros and others who went around. parading everywhere the ruling party. would not give up important states like. Karnataka or Himachal or whatever. So. the very fact that. the ballot has the capability of. overthrowing governments even of the.

dominant political party shows that we. are a thriving democracy. So people who. are doing this kind of campaign I think. it should shut their mouths forever that. we. you can't disparage. our hard fought freedom and democracy. for your petty political gains. The. second good thing is that it keeps this. ruling party also under check. you know on their toes all the time. because. otherwise a degree of complacency. develops and you think take people for.

granted too. So we need as I said that's. a good thing that yeah we need a. combination we need healthy and a good. opposition who can challenge the. government and also overthrow. governments. I'm from Karnataka and I. know that there was. popular discontent discontent against. the government there the incumbent BJP. government and. we saw the results the way it did a. couple of weeks ago. which is. which is a. you know wake up call for all these. parties because they all just think that.

five years you don't do much work and. then just encash the popularity of Mr. Modi or just have his road shows and. this and that and then you can overturn. you know. misgovernance of public discontent of. several years. I think that is living in. a fool's paradise and taking people's. intelligence for granted. I think Indian. people whether they are. literate illiterate. are a very intelligent. you know class public has some jantier.

So they know everything and they know. whom to reward how much and when. Talking about important parts of history. you know I was trying to research about. Veer Savarkar. and you happen to be a some sort of. expert on the topic right now right? And. you try to do and explain the whole life. and importance of his work. When you. Google. that Mhm. right? You Google him. and you find two different school of.

thoughts. One who are celebrating him. and the other who are. completely opposite. Yeah. Why is that? Like why Veer Savarkar is not celebrated. by a lot people lot of people. Or let me. just take it one step behind and like. educate everybody. who was Veer Savarkar and why. mentioning him in history is so. important that now you speak about the. whole topic. Yeah.

So my. entry point also Raj into the into the. life of Veer Savarkar was precisely on. that account that you know. in our growing up years I don't remember. him being a part of. even a mention of him in our textbooks. Exactly. I come from a part Maharashtrian family. so on my maternal side in whispers there. would be some accounts of Savarkar here. and there. But larger other than that. there was not much of a discussion about.

this man. But if you remember during the first NDA. government that's when I think he burst. into national consciousness all over. again when Mr. Vajpayee. put up his photograph in the central. hall of parliament and there was a huge. furore about that and a year later there. was also a plaque in his honor in. Kalapani in Port Blair where he was. incarcerated for a long time and there. was a hullabaloo about that too and once. the NDA government fell and the UPA came.

we had Mr. Mani Shankar Aiyar have that. plaque removed and thrown away and lot. of invectives hurled against Savarkar. And especially from 2014 onwards you. know election rallies. feature him people. so many leaders prominent leaders make. very very disparaging comments about. him. He's constantly a volleyball between you. know competing political. parties and ideologies.

Leave all the noise and politics aside. But if a young person in India today. wants to know what is all this noise. about exactly what you said like who was. the man? What why is he intruding. contemporary political discourse in a. manner that very few other leaders of. the past do? Yeah. What is a source to go back to? There's. hardly any scholarly work done on him. The last biography of his was written. when he was alive in the 1960s by this.

gentleman called Mr. Dhananjay Keer. Now since then to now my first volume. echoes from a forgotten past came out in. 2019. Till then you know 40 years. 40 50 years there was. no you know reevaluation of him whereas. the ideology that he propounded of. Hindutva has been in a political ascent. in this country. He intrudes our. discourse but. alarming lack of scholarship or of.

curiosity intellectual curiosity about. the person and access to his thoughts. and writings that was absent. So again. Tony Morrison played in my head that if. there's a book that you want to read and. it's not been written yet you must be. the first to write not one but two. volumes because there was just so much. of material about him which had been. hitherto remained unaccessed by people. So so that's one reason why these two. volumes came up and I've tried to you.

know uh. take all aspects of his life. Here was a. man who and in fact on 28th of May we'll. be commemorating 140 years of his birth. in a small little village called Bhagur. in Nashik. from where he grew up and at a very very. young age. you know inspired by the revolutionary. movement in Maharashtra which was. brewing then the Chapekar brothers. who had protested against the plague. you know in Maharashtra and the.

repressive measures that the British. were taking to clamp down on plague. victims. The Epidemics Diseases and. Epidemics Act which was you know. introduced now during COVID was actually. enacted by the British then to control. plague and the Chapekars protesting. against that had killed the plague. commissioner. So inspired by that young. Savarkar who was 12 years old or. something had taken this. vow in front of his family deity. Ashtabhuja Bhavani that till my very end. in Marathi it said.

Shatrus Marta Marta Mare To Zunzen. So. I'm going to keep uh, fighting till my. very end killing the, uh, enemy. And he followed this up by. forming India's first ever organized. secret society or Gupta Sanstha, which. was first called Rashtrabhakta Samuh. It. later. morphed into uh, Mitra Mela, which later. became Abhinav Bharat, Young India. Uh, on the lines of the Italian. revolutionaries Mazzini and Garibaldi. and others who had created Young Italy.

uh, to fight against imperialism. So, young people who would gather together. and the idea was to create an. insurrection in the British Indian Army, very similar to what happened in 1857. Uh, and this started spreading its wings. all over Maharashtra first and other. parts of India and active collaboration. with several other secret societies, particularly in Bengal. Uh, you had the. Anushilan Samiti, the Swadhin Bharat, Jugantar, several others. So, people.

like Aurobindo Ghosh, Barindra Nath. Ghosh, uh, Prafulla Chaki, Khudiram Bose, all. these people were constantly working. towards with each other. And imagine at. a time when there were no WhatsApp. groups to communicate and coordinate. strategy, they were actually, uh, you. know, working together to for the. complete freedom of India. And Savarkar. in the Maharashtra side, he, his elder. brother Babarao had formed this. And in 1905 as a student in Fergusson.

College, uh, in Pune, uh, he organized the first ever student. bonfire against British clothes to. protest against the partition of Bengal. So, young student in Maharashtra being. influenced by what was happening in. distant Bengal and actually all of them. organizing against it. And he was. rusticated from college, fined and all. that. Then he gets a scholarship, goes. away to uh, London to study law. in on the behest of this amazing, you.

know, leader of the revolutionaries. there called Shyamji Krishna Varma uh, who was who set up this India House. That place is still there in London. Uh, this it's occupied by other people now, but it's the place where all these. revolutionaries lived. And some of the. stellar names who probably wouldn't even. light a bulb in anyone's minds, uh, Shyamji Krishna Varma, Madam Bhikaji. Cama, V.V.S. Iyer, M.P.T. Acharya, Sardar. Singh Rana, Madan Lal Dhingra,

Lala Hardayal, you know, Sikandar Hayat Khan. So many. such people from different parts of. India, almost like a microcosm of what. India was was there in India India. House. And as their leader, Savarkar did. several things. One is he uh, wrote a. book on the 1857. uh, revolution. He called it the first. war of Indian independence. It was till. then called Sepoy Mutiny, you know, disparagingly. Some few sepoys. because of that beef lard and pork this. thing they.

revolted was what the British tried to. perpetuate. He said, "No, this was a. revolution." And that book actually. became like the Bhagavad Gita for. revolutionaries much later. It was Bhagat Singh. who published republished another. edition of it. Or later Netaji Subhas. Chandra Bose and Rash Behari Bose and. others. He also got bomb manuals, how to manufacture bombs in India. All. of those, you know, sent back to India. and. organized this constant, you know,

revolution for the complete liberation. of India as I said. And the first flag. of Indian independence designed by him. and Hemchandra Das Kanungo of the Bengal. Anushilan Samiti, uh, that first flag. was taken to the International Socialist. Conference in Stuttgart in Germany in. 1907 and Madam Bhikaji Cama just by a. woman again, she jumps onto the table. and unfurls that flag, you know, defying a lot of resistance.

from the British. And say, "From today India is. independent. This is our flag. Do what. you wish." Uh, you know, so that kind of. zeal that they managed and a lot of. political assassinations then began to. happen. Whether it was in Calcutta, it. was in Nashik, uh, and in London itself, right under. the nose of the British Crown, Madan Lal. Dhingra assassinates Lord Curzon Wylie. And that's when the whole revolutionary. movement unravels and Savarkar is. arrested. He's tried unfairly. He's sent.

away to he's given the harshest. punishment of two life imprisonments of. 50 years, 25 plus 25. So, young man who. was going to London to study law. at the age of 26, 27, arrested. 50. years, you know, imagine if he has to, you know, literally rot in the dungeons. of Port Blair, the most inhuman. tortures, what it could have meant for. his psyche. So, there he sent away.

to Kala Pani, suffers some of the worst. of tortures there. No good food, no. toilet facilities, no medical. facilities. The Kolhu Ka Bail punishment. all through the day. And weathers all of. that and then in 1924 he is released. And. between 24 to 37, 14 years of actual. jail imprisonment and then 13 long years. of. house arrest and confinement in. Ratnagiri in Maharashtra. So, 27 long.

years of a young person's life totally. snuffed out. His degree is snatched away. from him. His entire family property taken away, you know, and even the vessels of the. house were pawned and auctioned. So, when the men were sent away to Kala. Pani, the women of the house literally. begged. for a eking out a livelihood. So, under. those circumstances and sacrifices this. man, you know, survived. And in. Ratnagiri in 13 years, by then he had. propounded this whole idea of Hindutva.

And in the 13 years he he was a social. reformer also who looked at a complete. casteless society. Uh, you know, inter-caste marriage, inter-caste dining. The first temple in India, Patit Pavan Mandir in Ratnagiri in 1931. where people of all cast could go and. worship. At a time when among the. Maharashtrian Brahmins, the Deshasthas. and the Konkanasth Chitpavans would not. sit together and eat, you had the first. cafe where everyone could sit together.

and eat, which was a revolutionary idea at 100. years ago. Today it doesn't matter so. much in urban spaces, but then it was a. big deal. And you know, Aspṛśya. Ganapati, an untouchable Ganapati where. the. lowest in the cast order would be the. priest and even the Brahmin had to go. and take his blessings to, you know, worship. So, and children of. untouchable, so-called untouchable. communities to be able to study along. with the upper cast children. All these. experiments he did for 13 years. And.

then after he was finally released in. 37, uh, he becomes the president of the. Hindu Mahasabha, which was a very. important party then and made it a. politically electorally fighting fit. party against both the Congress and the. Muslim League, which was there. And. throughout his life he was an. ideological opponent of Gandhi and what. he stood for. He had a lot of. differences of opinion with Gandhi. And. of course then the very difficult times. leading up to the partition of the.

country where the Hindu Mahasabha. stoutly opposed. the partition till the very end. And. after freedom, he was falsely implicated. in Gandhi's assassination because. Nathuram Godse was his, you know, acolyte in the Hindu Mahasabha. And so. he and Narayan Apte who were the main. conspirators. And he was. kept in jail but exonerated. and honorably exonerated in 1948.

in the Red Fort trials. But after that, you know, the man just lost interest. He. became a persona non grata in society. Even talking about him. meant that, you know, you paid a heavy. price. for with your livelihood. Uh, so he. relegated to the, you know, background. in society. And finally in 1966. on 26th February in that Jain tradition. of Paryushana where you stop eating, drinking, he actually actually gave up.

his life. in Mumbai. What was the ideological war. between him and Mahatma Gandhi? That's interesting. So, so, you know, they met as young students. um, when Gandhi was in South Africa and. Savarkar was in London. And the the. fundamental difference of both these men. was Gandhi by then had already. crystallized his whole non-violent. movement. Whereas Savarkar believed in a. violent armed rebellion, a revolution.

And that was their fundamental. difference. So, when they met in. London, I think 1909, again, if my dates don't, you know, fail me. Uh, it was during the Dussehra that, you. know, they would organize lot of debates. and talks in the India House. And so, Gandhiji had come to this place and so. he was invited to talk. And Gandhi said, you know, "I'm not talking about uh, political stuff. I'm going to talk about. Ram Rajya and its establishment and how.

it's so important and how non-violence. is important and all that." And then he. steps aside and Savarkar takes the. podium. And he rebuts every aspect of what. Gandhi says, saying, "What is absolute. non-violence? Is it not alien to our. ethos and our culture, especially the. Hindu culture? All our gods and. goddesses are shown with. weapons in their hands. That is not for. ornamentation. That is for attacking. what you think is adharma." So, he said, "You know, even you speak of Ram Rajya,

even to establish that Ram Rajya, Ram. had to go to Lanka and kill Ravan after. waging a war. He didn't go there and sit. on Satyagraha saying, "Give Sita back.". And he said, "Okay, chalo, I'll give her. back to you." So, he had to wage a. bloody war. Uh so, establishment of Ram. Rajya also is preceded by war. Uh and we. are talking this, he said, in the. Dussehra when all the nine days the Devi. is celebrated, you know, killing.

different. asuras. And even in the Gita, you have. Lord Krishna saying, "Even if the. opponent is your own father, brother, cousin, teacher, this, that, you it's. your duty, your dharmic duty to. kill the person if that person is on the. side of Adharm.". So, his question was, "If you consider. the British Raj as Adharmic, the means. don't matter, the end matters. That we. have to annihilate it at any cost." So, I think fundamentally that was one major. aspect of difference where both of them.

did not agree upon for the longest time. And that they will never converge. They. are opposite poles of Indian history. In. fact, there are two portraits in the. Central Hall of Parliament. Quite. ironically, they are diagonally opposite. to each other. So, they're almost. looking at each other all the time as. the two opposite poles of our freedom. movement, too. The other may major area. where they differed was what Savarkar. considered as Gandhi's appeasement. policy, particularly of the Muslims. Uh.

and thereby facilitating or sowing the. seeds of partition. So, why do you feel. why. only one side or why Mahatma Gandhi is. celebrated? Only he he is celebrated. I. definitely agree that. what he's done. is. was really important and actually led us. to where we are today. But why only him? Like, why do you feel that there's only. one person being celebrated so much. whereas all the other people who just.

who you just talked about, they are not. celebrated as much? They are spoken. about in as footnotes in in our history. books. That these were some isolated, you know, acts of bravery. It was not a. coordinated movement. Some young. you know, hot-blooded youngsters. throwing bomb here and there and killing. someone and then being executed. So, that's how it's represented to us. It. didn't achieve much. Uh. the political reason I mentioned, so. especially after independence, and.

Gandhi by then had already been killed. Uh. so, to make an icon of a person was. politically expedient for the party that. came to power after that. And to. attribute everything to only this and. not to all the other streams, it was. just a, you know, political gains. The manipulation of history, uh which is the biggest problem in this. country, whether what we spoke earlier. of medieval history or modern Indian. history, or even ancient India. So, when.

history is utilized by politicians of. all hues. for narrow political gains of today, I. think the casualty is the countries and. generations that grow in it with a. warped view of our own past. And that. sadly, you know, then and now it continues in. different forms. Do you feel all of this, I mean, some. large extent part of all these things. like having Mahatma Gandhi on the.

currency, having MG Road everywhere. around the world, around the country? Right? It's largely because of political. gain. No, I wouldn't say that. completely. But why only him? I mean, every other. we should have I mean, Netaji Subhas. Chandra Bose was. uh. ideally, I mean, the. when the INA did its exploits, he was. declared as the first Prime Minister of. free India. So, ideally and I'm so glad.

that his statue is there at, you know, what is now Kartavya Path where. the. under the canopy you had the bust of I. mean, the statue of Emperor George V. Here, this was the man who helped. displace that man's government. So, ideally he should have occupied that. place right then. But it happened. better late than never, but why so. belatedly? So, there are so many others. In every country there are multiple. icons on the currency note. So, celebrate Gandhi. Uh.

we owe a lot to him and his, you know, concept of freedom. Some people may. agree with it, some people may not. agree. A lot of harm also was caused by. his ideology, which needs to be. discussed. A critique uh. is not a criticism. You know, an honest. critique of the positives, the negatives. of all these leaders needs to be done. dispassionately now. And celebrate all. of them. Let's not give one importance. over the other. Uh. but.

iconizing him and making him the, you. know, the face of it was certainly done. in the aftermath of, you know, freedom. And he was not even. there then. And so, you know, then to. make an deity of somebody is so much. more easier. So, you needed the. governments that came after freedom also. needed drew their legitimacy some way. through this iconization. So, that I. think was what it was. But. there's no harm in celebrating him.

because I think he is the most visible. face of. uh you know, the way the world looks at. it. And so many people have drawn. inspiration from him, whether it's. Nelson Mandela, whether it's so many, you know, other countries who have, you. know, drawn inspiration and uh revere him. So, it's perfectly fine to honor and revere. him, but not at the risk of making. everyone else almost, you know, disappear from the firmament. What were the consequences of.

or what harm did Gandhi's movements. cause in the country? So, I think we. partially discussed that earlier where, you know, what was Savarkar's. um. you know, opposition to him on this. whole idea of. appeasement politics. Uh. the entire, you know, the manner in. which the country was vivisected. on communal lines. was largely a manifestation of. decades of this very policy.

Uh and uh. directly or indirectly somewhere, who. who takes the blame for, you know, the. millions displaced and killed and all. that happened during partition. Uh if. you're taking the credit for the. liberation of the country, you also need. to take. the liability of all the negatives. You. can't just cherry-pick and say only the. positives belong to me, the negatives. are someone else's. Uh so, when one looks at that, um and, you know,

uh this inability to understand the. roots of separatism, uh specifically. Muslim separatism, which was already. brewing in India right from the 18th. century, the Wahhabi movements, uh Sir Syed Ahmad Khan and the. two-nation theory that he propounded, the AMU, Aligarh Muslim University, the. establishment of the Muslim League, the. uh you know, Morley-Minto reforms that. came, the Lucknow Pact, separate. electorates, uh the communal electorate.

bill that came. All these somewhere the. Congress was playing along and not. countering it. And the partition was. only the last uh you know, episode in. this long phase of appeasement. And this. inability to understand that I think was. a great failure, which. one must call out and say this is what. it is. It's a historical fact. So, one. needs to, you know, mention it where it. where it needs to be told. So, that I. would say was a very sad, you know,

episode. So, what would Now you're. talking about separation and, you know, how all the things that it caused. And. we keep hearing about it, but we never. actually hold anyone accountable for. that. Because we have never been. told or taught or even just talked about. the awareness of the fact that this. happened because of XYZ person or XYZ. group of people. If this wouldn't have. happened, how do you imagine Akhand Bharat? Like, what would be the dynamics of Akhand.

Bharat today? Oh my god, it would be so. unwieldy and unmanageable. With such a huge territory, in retrospect, maybe it was the right. thing to do. But I think Raj, I think a the more. fundamental question that that needs to. come is, you know, when even Sir Syed Ahmad or. even Dr. Ambedkar talked of this as a. clash of. civilizations. Uh. what is the Indic worldview? Uh you.

know, in the Indian faith systems, uh there are different schools of. philosophy, right? In India. Uh Bharat. that, you know, you have the. Astik traditions or the Orthodox and the. Nastik traditions, the Heterodox. But on. the other side, you know, you have. largely the Abrahamic faiths, which say. there is only one. my way or the highway. If you do not. believe in my understanding of what the.

ultimate supreme reality is, then you. are a non-believer, you are called. names. And there are also, you know, prescribed. you know, actions that can legitimately. be taken against the non-believer, the. pagans, the kafirs, all these people to. kill them, to destroy their, you know, places of worship, to destroy. their centers of learning, to, you know, molest, rape their women. It's all. considered as part of religious. sanction, right? And to convert them.

either by force or allurements or. anything is. par for the course. So, when these two. kind of very different These are. different worldviews as to how you see. the universe and the answers to the. universe, who is the supreme reality. You are not the knower, you are the. seeker. And that's why in our Indian. philosophy it was neti neti. This is not. the end. There is further scope for finding out. And everybody is a sadhak. Everybody is.

a seeker. Compare that to say there is. only one God sitting in a high sky. He's. controlling. He's, you know, monitoring. every action of yours. If you don't. believe in him, he's going to throw a. thunderbolt at you. You're going to be. rotting in hellfire. You'll be put in a. cauldron of oil and burnt. And these. type of things are a different. worldview. So, when these two clash, which is what I think all these people. called as a clash of civilizations, clash of ideas,

because all religions are. eventually. movement of ideas. Their founders or the way it developed. is a lifestyle. It's an idea. These are. very two different. worldviews which collided and in. different parts of the world, the other. worldview, the Greek, the Roman, all. these other, you know, traditions completely got eliminated. Whereas India is probably the only. tradition which still survives. Our. faith systems are.

you know, languages, our rituals, traditions. continue after so many centuries of, you know, trying to annihilate them. And. so, when we look at even these. traditions and rituals and all of that, we just dismiss them away as mumbo. jumbo, superstition and this and that. As a historian, I look at them also as a. very archival, you know, treasure which. we have inherited. The same thing would. have been done 5,000, 6,000 years ago by. our ancestors, which we are also.

continuing to do. And how did these. survive through word of mouth despite. the destruction of our centers of. learning. All our universities, whether. it was Nalanda, Takshashila, Vikramshila, all these universities were. burnt. and toned down. When Bakhtiyar Khilji, you know, destroyed Nalanda, it is said that the. place burnt for 6 months. That was the. amount of manuscripts and knowledge that. was there. But despite all of that,

today our knowledge systems, whatever it. is, you know, our philosophy, our. knowledge systems, yoga, Ayurveda, all. these are still surviving. So, what is. that strength of this. this landmass, this bhubhag, which even Iqbal, I think, in his thing. kuch kuch to hai ki hasti mit ti nahi. hamari, he said. What is that kuch? Is. it tangible? Is it only physical prowess. like I document in Bravehearts of. Bharat? Or is there a civilizational.

strength. which we inherit? And can that become a. source of strength for the future that, you know, we have managed to protect and. preserve despite all odds. And how do you then also deal with those. forces and ideologies which do not. believe in your egalitarian Vasudhaiva. Kutumbakam, the whole world is one. family and all of that vis-a-vis. people who say ours is a club. It's an. If you don't have membership to this.

club, you will be punished. You will sit. out of the class. So, how do you deal. with that? And I think because it was a partition. of the country also. or the continuing conflicts we are. seeing, not only in India, but in. different parts of the world, is a. manifestation of this very, you know, clash. Unless those groups, those faiths. and communities try to reform and say. that those are, you know, edicts and. verses and traditions of the.

8th century, 9th century, some of it is. not relevant today. At least in this country, they will not. be accepted. Unless that happens, the. friction and clashes are inevitable. And. one needs to understand that. And I. think Dr. Ambedkar. very clearly understood it. In his book. Pakistan and Thoughts on Partition, he. also said the same. He said Hindus and. Muslims cannot live together in this. country. So, when there is partition, there needs to be a complete transfer of.

populations. Everybody goes to one side. It's like two brothers in a house. fighting. So, if the younger brother. wants to. separate the property division, let him. take and go away and not have anything. to do with this. And so, that was what. he had advocated. Because that's. probably he. understood this problem. very clearly that how this was actually. a very deep, inbuilt, you know, fallacies between the. two.

worldviews of how we look at human. beings itself, how we look at the. universe, how we look at God, creation, and everything that flows from it. But. can't it happen that two people with. different ideologies can live in. harmony? We can. Now it's happening in few places, few. areas, few communities. No, we can and we should. But the onus. of that is on whom? The onus of that is. not on the person always. And that was. again the Gandhian. problem.

The onus of on that is not on the person. who already says Ekam Sat Vipra Bahudha. Vadanti, who already believes that there. are many paths to that truth. If you. have so many different devis and devtas, adding one more, you know, Allah or Jesus or anybody is. not a big deal. We would allow. everything to pass by. The onus of that. harmony is on those who speak of. exclusivist clubs, who speak that we are. the gospel truth. Where is the need to. convert? Where is the need to.

If someone is doing it out of. conviction, perfectly fine. But mass conversions, obviously that's not through any kind. of, you know, conviction. It is allurement. Of course, people would attribute it to caste. oppressions that for centuries, which is. a reality which needs to be accepted, that for centuries there was also that. perverse aspect of the society where all. this knowledge, all this high philosophy.

which I just narrated was kept away from. a large section of the people. But. multiple waves that happened in Indian. society, Hindu society particularly, constantly. stood for reforms on this front, right? Like what's your take on changing names. of the cities? Like it's say, we will name the city the. way we want. And you have to accept it. But why shouldn't we? As I said, Nalanda. was burnt by Bakhtiyar Khilji. Nalanda, all these universities were our. Princeton, Stanford, Harvard of those.

times. People from other countries would. come here, whether it was Fahian, Xuanzang, all these people. Now, Bakhtiyar Khilji. destroyed that place. Now, you come out. of Nalanda, the. the place there is Bakhtiyarpur. Now, tell me, is there any other country. in the world which valorizes and makes a. hero of someone who destroyed your. center of learning and actually. celebrates him or her? So, today if those. mistakes of history are being corrected,

what is particularly wrong about it? Aurangzeb was a monster of his times. If he needs to be. deplatformed, so to say, so be it. I. mean, Dara Shikoh, his brother, was a. better example to follow. So, name. things after him if you if you wish. But. why celebrate barbarians? Why celebrate. in my state? In Karnataka, they had this. perverse and maybe it'll come back now. that the Congress is back in power. You. had this Tippu Jayanti. against 18th century very bigoted ruler,

Tippu Sultan, who. unleashed, you know, unimaginable. horrors on so many people, Syrian. Christians, the Konkanis of Mangalore, the Mandyam Iyengars, all anybody who did not belong to his. faith. Now, why commemorate and. celebrate the Nayars of Malabar in. Kerala who hate him, the Coorgis, the in. Coorg the Kodavas. In Coorg, they say even a. stray dog is disparagingly called Tippu.

to, you know, that's the amount of. hatred that is there after 250 years. So, why celebrate such a person? In. Karnataka itself, there is a, you know, Sufi kind of a saint called Sant. Shishunal Sharif. If you want to. make a particular community feel very. nice and have its icons. First of all, I. don't agree to that. Why should. a particular community have icons of the. same community? Hindu need not have only. a Hindu as an icon. He can have a. Muslim, Christian, whatever as their.

role model. Likewise for everyone else. But if you really want to have, you have. a lot of these Dara Shikoh and Shishunal. Sharif, Rahim Ras Khan to, you know, Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam to. Arif Mohammad Khan, K.K. Mohammad. There. are so many others who can be held up. as, you know, the role models. So, why. celebrate barbarians? Why celebrate. people who have destroyed your. your Bharatiya civilization? Why? And if.

that is being changed, why is that wrong? Thank you for our first history podcast. giving us so much perspective, like such. a great perspective on so many things, sparking my curiosity and my users and. my viewers' curiosity as well. Thank you. so much. I'm grateful that we did this. episode. I I so. worried and nervous about this that will. I be able to hold a conversation because. my knowledge in this domain is so.

limited that I was super worried that. would this be a good experience for you? Would you feel some kind of naiveness in. my conversation? I'm sure you must have. sensed it but. I am I am glad that I was able to do. this and I did it with you because you. just sparked a new curiosity in me that. I'm going to keep having these kind of. guests more. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. so much for watching this episode. Please let us know that whether you like. these kind of episodes or not because. we're trying to experiment and get as. many guests as we can from different.

genres who can teach us about history, about past, about future, about. politics, about business, about. everything that is important for us to. understand and learn in order to become. a better suited person to achieve all. his or her dreams. Let me know if you. like the guest today and if you have any. suggestions, please let us know in the. comments and share this episode with at. least one person who may need it, who. may benefit from it. Until the next. episode, keep figuring out.