How to Read People, Build Trust & Choose Better Friends | Adam Grant | FO576 Raj Shamani

Half of the people you think of as. friends, do not see you as a friend. back. >> No way. >> This is something sociologists have. found repeatedly. >> People are terrible at choosing right. people. >> Why do you say so? >> I think one of the mistakes we make, whether you're looking for a romantic. partner or teammate to collaborate with, is we pay too much attention to how. people treat us. What you really want to. know is how do they treat the person. who's below them? How do they treat. someone who can't help them back? >> Adam Grant, you have studied people for.

decades. You're trying to find out why. they win, why do they lie, how are they. being trusted. You've helped and advised. like the US Army, Google, and bunch of. other companies in the world. Tell me top three questions which are. great to start building a vibe and. connection. >> I would say number one, I probably want. to start with tell me about a favorite. memory. A second question that I love is. if you could go back to one point in. your life, what would it be? And then a. third favorite is tell me about. something you regret that you wish you. could redo. The research show if people. just spend seven minutes in deep talk,

that is enough to accelerate their bond. >> And what would be the worst question? >> Number one would be what do you think of. the current political situation? Second. risky question is to ask people about. their religious beliefs. And then I. think the third category of questions. that I would say avoid is. >> There's something called instinct. You. instinctively know that this person is. not right for you. Sometimes you're. right about it, but sometimes you're. wrong about it. So how to know when to. trust my instinct and when to not trust.

my instinct? >> I think the first thing to know though. is that some of our favorite people in. our lives, most reliable companions and. allies, are the people we started out. disliking. >> Really? >> Yeah, this is a classic finding in. psychology. >> How can you find out that somebody is. just manipulating you and not actually. vibing and connecting with you? >> I would ask them who their role models. are. Who do you admire? And oftentimes. people reveal their values through who. they look up to. >> How to vibe with people? Give your top. three rules. >> I have three principles for vibing with.

other people. Number one, >> Let's say somebody's going out on a. first date. What should they do in the. first 30 minutes to build a certain. vibe? >> From reading the research on first. dates, my biggest surprise from a paper. that came out earlier this year, what. they show is that. >> I have a small favor to ask you. I need. you to subscribe to our channel. The. more subscribers we have, the better and. bigger guests we can bring and provide. you more value through these.

conversations. And the full audio. experience of this show is also. available on Spotify, where you can. follow us and listen to the new episodes. as well. To perform at your best, your. body and mind need to be at their best. And a big part of that comes down to. what you eat every single day. The food you choose either fuels you or. slows you down. That's why your food choices matter so. much. And that's where Urban Platter. comes in. They make better-for-you. products that deliver on both taste and.

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you. have studied people for decades. You've. trying to find find out. why they win, why they not win, why do. they lie, how are they being trusted. And. you've helped and advised like the US. Army, Navy, Google, and bunch of other. companies in the world. Then you teach at the top like you teach. top 1% students in the world. And after doing all of this, you said. something which is very tricky. And to.

me that is. >> [laughter]. >> That was. I always thought I'm good at it, but you. actually say that. after reading and doing all these. research, you found out that. people are terrible at choosing right. people. And why do you say so? >> Ah, there are so many reasons. This is. true whether you're looking for a. romantic partner, a roommate, or a. teammate to collaborate with. I think one of the mistakes we make is. we pay too much attention to how people. treat us, and we don't think about how.

they treat everyone else. And if you're if you're in a position of. power influence, I see this all the time. with CEOs, with founders, with with. people in any position of leadership. They don't realize that the people below. them are motivated to put their best. foot forward. And so the the most. selfish takers are the best fakers when. they're dealing with powerful people. And that's that's how they get ahead. And what that means is the more power. and status you gain, the more. compromised your judgment of other.

people's character is. What you really. want to know is how do they treat the. person who's below them, or the person. who's their peer, not how do they treat. the person up, right? We can. we can get fooled a lot by takers who. are great fakers who kiss up and kick. down. I think the real measure of of. somebody's character is how do they. treat someone who can't help them back. >> Let's go deep into it. Let's find out so. many ideas around this thing because. what you said essentially makes a lot of. sense, but still we fall into this trap.

of actually judging people wrong, right? Before we do that, if someone's watching. you for the first time, how would you explain what you do? >> [laughter]. >> Who you are, what do you do? Like they. give them 1 minute pitch. Like I'm a big. fan of Adam Grant. >> [laughter]. >> I want to hear it from you. >> That's an honor. I'm an organizational. psychologist. Uh that means I spend a. lot of my career studying how to make. work not suck. And I've expanded my focus over time. I'm interested in how we can live more.

meaningful, more creative, more. connected lives. And I try to use social science to help. people do that. So, I run randomized. controlled experiments, longitudinal. studies. I do a lot of synthesizing of. data, but I spend a good amount of my. time inside of organizations trying to. figure out how we can make cultures. better, how we can help teams vibe, and. ultimately how we can bring bring out. the best in everyone. >> But but when you say how can we make. teams vibe? Right? Or like how do we make people.

vibe? That's. something interesting to me. Tell me. what's happening when you say. like when two people click, the moment. they meet each other and that there's. some spark, there's some click, they. vibe with each other. What do you mean. by that? What is essentially happening? >> Well, I think of a vibe as the quality. of a connection between two people. And. it's more than a feeling. Neuroscientists have actually shown that. when you have that sense that you're. really vibing, your brain waves are. synchronizing. >> Okay. >> and your heartbeats are synchronizing, too. So, you can trace it in the body,

not just experience it in the mind. And I think the telltale signs that. you're vibing are time just disappears, right? It It flies. You feel like it's. only been a few minutes and hours have. passed. Uh your ideas are soaring, your. energy is rising, and you kind of you. walk away from the interaction feeling. like, "Wow, I really miss that person.". >> But what's happening? Like. psychologically, what's going on inside. my brain? Why do I feel like time's. flying? Why do I feel like I want to.

spend more time with them? Why is Why do. I feel synced? Is there some science. which is going inside me? >> Well, I think so. I think in in the. middle of a vibe, you're probably in a. flow state where you have that sense of. total absorption, you're not necessarily. worried about how you look, you're not. paying a lot of attention to what does. this person think of me, do they like. me, right? You're just absorbed in the. moment. And I think that happens when. we're on the same wavelength with other. people. So, one of the things Raj and I. had a lot of fun with while I was. researching vibe is I was interested in.

what does it what does it actually look. like to to get to that point where you. connect with somebody else. And I found. there are actually three different. wavelengths around the world that people. tend to click on. I've come to call them. ally, pal, and companion. So, you I I'm actually really curious if you. think about people in your life this. way. >> Okay. >> But for me, what's really powerful about. this is there there are three paths to a. meaningful vibe. So, an ally is somebody. who shares your goals. You're on a. mission together.

>> Okay. >> A pal is somebody who shares your. interests. You're having fun together. And a companion is somebody who shares. your values. You care deeply about each. other. And depending on which which you're. trying to build, right? There are very. different ways to connect. But we run. into problems and I think actually our. global loneliness crisis is happening in. part because people are on different. wavelengths. So, I'm trying to be allies. with you, but you just want to be pals. with me. And that's a great recipe over. time for failing to vibe, but also for. disappointment, for expectations being.

shattered, and and ultimately for a. sense of betrayal that you were not the. person I wanted you to be, and we didn't. even realize that we just had different. ideas of what this relationship was all. about. >> But how do we find out that you and I we. have same ideas? >> Well, one possibility is we could talk. about it directly, and I could say, "Hey. Raj, I would I would love to be allies. with you." And you could say, "No, no, actually not. >> [laughter]. >> not interested.". But I think that we we could also be a. little bit more subtle about it. So, I. think that.

the the kinds of conversations we have. are different based on our expectations. If I'm trying to be your ally, I'm going. to be asking you about what your. aspirations are. What are you trying to. accomplish this year? What's your. biggest challenge? What roadblocks are. you running into because I want to. figure out how we can succeed together. or how I can help you succeed. If I want to be pals, I'm probably. asking you about your favorite books, movies, TV shows, songs, right? I'm I'm. trying to find something we both enjoy. together or maybe a common hobby. I'd.

start asking you about whether you play. cricket or whether you're into padel. And if I wanted to be companions with. you, I'm probably showing you a lot more. emotional vulnerability. I'm talking. about one of my big regrets. I'm opening. up to you about the the breakup that I. was really struggling with. professionally or personally. And if you. pay attention to what topics people. gravitate toward, right? You can start. to to read, "Hey, that person is is. trying to connect with me on on the. companion wavelength. Okay, do I want. that?".

>> But is it. Like some people might suck at it, right? >> [laughter]. >> Sure. >> Yeah, like so So, let's say if I'm. talking to someone and I want that. person to be my pal, but then I'm just. asking them questions which is giving. them a hint of that I want to be their. ally. Like how do I How do I correct. that in the first meeting? >> Yeah, I think in the in the first. meeting, what I would do is I would. probably start by saying, "Let's Let's. just get to know each other a little bit. better. Um I'm like I would love to have more. fun in my life. What do you do for fun?".

I think, you know, a lot of people start. and this is one of the things that. drives me crazy about America is people. define themselves by their work. So, the. first question when you meet somebody. here is, "What do you do?". And that immediately shuts down a. conversation. You ask me what I do and I. tell you I'm a psychologist and you. might be trading seats on a bus or a. train cuz. >> [laughter]. >> you don't you don't want me in your. head. And you might have some image of lying. on a couch and I'm not that kind of. psychologist, right? But. creates a lot of distance between people.

to start with that conversation about, "Well, what do you do? What I like to. ask people instead is what do you love. to do? And that's when they open up about their. passions and the things that that light. them up and that's the beginning of a. great pal conversation. >> Do you start your conversation with a. stranger with what do you love doing? >> I do now. I didn't used to. But there. have been a whole series of experiments. showing that we can actually skip the. small talk and accelerate our vibe by. going right to deep talk. Where I could. just ask you, hey, what do you love to. do? And sometimes I give a little bit of.

a preamble for that. I'll say, you know. what? I'm just I'm tired of talking to. people about the weather. I find the. weather endlessly boring. So I would. actually love to know something that you. care about. Like do you have a new. hobby? Do you have something you enjoy. doing? Tell me about it. >> Interesting. And. Okay, tell tell me the like break it. down for me, okay? Tell me top three. questions which are great to start in. building a vibe and connection and top. three questions which are a recipe for a. disaster. The worst way to start a. conversation with somebody.

>> Wow. >> I love like like what do you love to do? It's such a simple question and but a. lot of people won't be able to answer. because they immediately be like what do. I tell? Because they're so occupied in. their head that their identity is their. work. >> Yeah, I think that's true and a lot of. people haven't spent enough time. thinking about what they love to do or. they're still searching for a passion. So if I were looking for three favorite. questions beyond that, I would say. Oh, this is this is a fun exercise. I've. a I've a long list of favorites that. have been tested in experiments with.

with strangers trying to bond. So. my go-to's, I think if I were choosing a. top three, I would say number one. I probably want to start with some. version of tell me about a favorite. memory. And what's that's what's I think what's. great about the the favorite memory. question is. you're anchoring people in an in. experience they've had. So they don't. have to start cycling through like what. do I enjoy? What's my hobby? What's my. interest? They can just think through, yeah, what's a moment that made me smile.

or made me laugh or that I think back to. often. >> True. >> A A second question that I love is, if. you could go back to one point in your. life, what would it be? And now you're starting to get into. people's experiences around their. values. Right? What is something that. they really treasure? And would love to have more of in their. life. And then a third favorite is, tell me. about something you regret that you wish. you could redo. And I think the personal vulnerability. that that requires seems to be from the. research in the sweet spot of it brings.

out something real about you, but it's. not too personal. It's not intrusive. >> [clears throat]. >> where people say, nope, don't want to. talk about that. Let me out of here. >> Yeah, and what would be the worst. questions? >> Worst questions. >> They like don't. Nobody should start a conversation with. these questions. >> I mean, there there's a whole list of, you know, overly intrusive questions. that I don't I don't think most people. are likely to to run the risk of, but in. terms of questions I see regularly that. I think are a mistake.

I think number one would be, what do you. think of the current political. situation? Because either it's going to divide. people or you're going to end up finding. somebody who's also outraged. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> And there may not be a lot you can do. about that situation. So, I would not. lead with politics. >> Yeah. >> I think a second risky question is to. ask people about their religious beliefs. because people often feel very strongly. about those and again it can divide. rather than unite too quickly. And then I think the third category of.

questions that I would say avoid are. just really mundane questions that. people are not excited to talk about. I. think that anything that's on the. surface of a person that, you know, that. doesn't define them. seems like a little bit of a waste of. time. And so. I think a common question that I see. there that I would I would love to see. everyone just cancel from their. repertoire is, so what's on your calendar today? Or. tell me about your schedule. Like the. last thing I want to do is walk you. through the boring details of my day.

Very few people, even people who have. exciting lives, very few moments in. their day are actually that interesting. to talk about. And so I want to move to. the highlights as opposed to the. minutia. >> Do you think tell me about yourself is a. good question? >> I don't think it's a horrible question. I think it's one that job interviewers. sometimes use highly effectively because. they want to give you a blank slate and. see where you take that. I think for most people, if you're. trying to vibe, it's a little too broad. Tell me about yourself. Well, there are a lot of dimensions to me. I.

don't know where to begin. >> True. >> And so I would rather put some. boundaries around that and say, tell me. about your personality, or tell me about. your hobbies, or even. tell me about the dream career that you. didn't pursue. >> And why would you do that? Like why. would you. want to go straight to the deep question. because all the top three questions that. you told me, they're probably much. deeper than what people usually talk. about. Why? Is there a specific science. behind it? >> Yeah, there is. So when you go to deep.

talk, a few things tend to happen. One. is that you are actually signaling to. the other person that you trust them. When you open up, right? When I tell. you, hey, you know what? I regret that I. didn't study abroad in college. I think. that was a mistake. I think it kept me. too much in my comfort zone. I was in. tunnel vision. I had goals and I was. kind of locked into them. And I I think that that was a huge miss. for me and I'm trying to make up for. that by spending more time traveling in. parts of the world that I don't know. well. I'm not putting myself out there in a.

way that you could use that information. against me or that I might list one of. my biggest regrets in life is I. shouldn't have told Raj about my study. abroad regrets from college. But I am showing you that I trust you. enough to tell you something that still. bothers me. That's a decision I made 25. years ago. And that sends a clear message to you. that I believe you're somebody worth. opening up to. And so that signals, "Hey, I want to. bond with you.". Second thing that happens is when I go. to deep talk, typically you will.

reciprocate. Right? It's It's actually a violation of. social norms. It would be rude to just. shut down and put up a wall. And so that. then begins the cycle of trust building. between us and we can start earning each. other's trust. And then the third reason I want to go. to deep talk is it's energizing. It's. more fun to talk about things that are. that are either emotionally evocative or. that are personally meaningful. And then. we can begin either really getting to. know each other or riffing on something. that we've we've never talked about. before. And I think that a lot of people.

hear deep talk and they think, "Well, you know, it's it's got to be something. that's really profound." No. Like my my. oldest daughter has sparked some. fantastic conversations with people by. asking them, "Do you believe aliens are. out there?" or not and why? And people, you know, they just they. start having a conversation that they've. they've not had before or they've never. had that version of this conversation. before and they come away thinking, "Wow, I love the questions that I got. asked and I want to have more. conversations with that person.".

>> What are you saying that let's say if. let's say you and I go to a networking. event and we just you ended up making me. meet some one of your friend. And the. first thing or like the first second or. third thing I end up asking them is. like, "Hey, do you believe in aliens?". or like, "Tell me about your favorite. memory." Is that what you're suggesting? >> It is. Yeah, and I know it sounds a. little bit awkward. >> Yeah. >> But a little bit of awkwardness can go a. long way toward building a stronger. relationship. And the choice that you. make to put yourself out there, the. worst case scenario is it doesn't land.

and you failed the vibe. But. the alternative of saying, "Well, what. do you do? And how's the weather?" That. probably wasn't going to work anyway. And so I think the risk is relatively. low and the potential reward is high. And the research shows, if you look at. the randomized controlled experiments, if people just spend 7 minutes in deep. talk, that is enough to accelerate their. bond, and it's especially effective for. introverts. >> Mhm. And so. I go out to a stranger and ask them a.

deep question even before I ask them, "What do you do?". >> You could. >> But is that what you're suggesting to. build a better vibe? >> It's an option. You could also share. something about yourself personally and. say, "Hey, I'm trying to have more. meaningful conversations with the people. I meet." Uh and I wanted to share. something with you and then pick one of. your topics. Uh and you know, I think this is a lot. of trial and error, right? I think that. human beings are complicated and we're. I think what I'm what I'm trying to what. I'm trying to prevent is. I.

I'm thinking about I have a lot of um. I I have a lot of students who feel. FOMO. Right? The fear of missing out. And there's something worse than FOMO. I. call it ROMO. It's the regret of having. missed out. FOMO can actually be useful. When you. have the fear that you're going to miss. something, you start to then take. action, right? You're worried that. you're going to miss out on meaningful. connections, so you go to the party that. you were going to go stay home during, or you reach out to the person that you.

were hesitant to reconnect with. When you feel ROMO, you feel like you. missed your window. >> Yeah. >> It's too late. And a lot of people look. back on their earlier experiences when. you know, when I talk with with leaders, when I talk with friends who are in. their 40s, 50s, 60s, they look back and. they say, "I wish I had been bolder. socially. I wish I had put myself out there a. little bit more. I wish I had shown the. curiosity about other people that I. feel, but was kind of blocked by the. social scripts and norms that we follow,

uh thinking, 'No, you can't bring that. up. You have to like you have to dip. your toe in the shallow end. You can't. dive right into the deep end.' And what. did I have to lose, really? Not as much. as I thought. >> Interesting. So. let's say I'm a I'm a bad. I have this regret, for example, okay? And there are a lot of people who will. have this regret, right? And I'm a. I'm a bad conversationalist. I won't be. able to go out and talk to people and. then come back home and then regret. that, oh I missed my window,

right? And a lot of people would do. that. And every time I go talk to somebody. or at least few times, I would have. messed it up. And because of that, I don't want to go. talk to other people. So. big So, let's say if I go to someone. today and I mess it up in the first 5-10. minutes and there's no chemistry, there's no spark, right? >> Yeah. >> Can I engineer chemistry? >> [laughter]. >> If you think about it that. scientifically, you might be shooting. yourself in the foot. >> Yeah.

>> [laughter]. >> But are there steps you could take to. increase the probability of chemistry? Sure. We can all create conditions that. either set a vibe or kill a vibe. >> Okay. >> And. I think if you struggle at clicking with. people in conversations, the first thing. to do is to say, look, not all. connections are built face-to-face. A. lot of them are created side-by-side, where you and I are doing a common. activity together. And that that's. actually where a lot of both pal and. ally bonds are formed. So, I would think. about what are the activities that you.

could do together. Um I think, you know, watching a a show or a movie that you. then talk about afterward is low-hanging. fruit for some people. But I would. prefer something a little more active. Because what we know from decades of. research is emotional intensity. accelerates connection. When our hearts are racing together and. beating together, that's when we feel. like we have a meaningful bond. And so. I love I love uh an experiment that was. done recently where people are randomly. assigned to go to a haunted house. together. >> Okay. >> And afterwards, strangers feel closer.

Uh and it's not just the jump scare. It's. what what happens is they only get. closer if they actually debrief the. experience afterward. So, they both freak out and then they. talk about it and they laugh. [clears throat] about it together and. they feel like they shared a unique. experience together. A lot of people will look at that and. say, "Well, we need adversity in order. to bond." No, you do not have to go. through a horrible hazing ritual like a. college fraternity or a sorority would. do to bring people closer together. It.

is not shared suffe- No, let me try that. again. It's not shared suffering that. brings people closer. It's not. adversity, it's intensity. It's the strong emotions that we feel in. a unique experience together that we. feel changes each of us and also changes. our dynamic that ultimately connects us, which is one of the reasons why it's so. good to take on physical challenges. together. Um, go to a bike ride together. that's going to be tough. Go run a race. Um, and what you will find together is. sweating together is often social. grease.

>> Give me an Give me examples of intense. intense experiences that'll be great. experiences to do. with allies to form and with pals and. with companions. >> Oh, this is good. Okay, this is fun. So, I think with allies, what I would say is. if you're trying to strengthen your ally. connection with someone, you want to. take on a hard problem or puzzle. together. >> Okay. >> It could be a literal puzzle. It could. be a jigsaw puzzle or a really difficult. LEGO project.

>> Okay. >> Uh, but that experience of having to. problem solve together is going to it's. going to challenge you to use different. skills, to rely on each other. Um, maybe. you take on, if you're a car person, you. say, "Okay, we're going to rebuild a car. together or we're going to soup up the. engine of a car together." Uh, I think. that's that's a great example of. something you could do with a potential. ally. You could do a quilting or a. knitting or a sewing project. Basically, I I the best the best ally bonds come. from shared projects. I think if you're trying to be pals,

what you want to do is peak fun. >> Mhm. >> I would say go to a comedy show. together. I would say watch a hilarious movie. >> Okay. >> I'd say find a favorite sport. Or uh a. fi- I I would say go do karaoke. together. That is maximum pal fun. >> Yeah. >> And then that could open the door also. to companionship [clears throat] because. most people are terrible at karaoke. And. so the the courage they have to put. themselves out there, then you end up. kind of laughing at yourselves. But I. think there are lots of different ways.

to create the vulnerability together. that allows for companionship. I think. certainly um a lot of the questions that. we talked about before are relevant. Uh. I'll add a few others that are are. helpful for if you want to build. companionship. I think going into a. dynamic where you're with each other's. families is a great place to start. because. >> From the beginning. >> Um I I wouldn't do that maybe on your. first meeting. >> Yeah. >> [laughter]. >> But you know, even if you've just if you. met a college roommate for example, or.

if you have a new colleague at work, when they meet your sibling, you're going to get to real. vulnerability much faster than if you. only hang out with, you know, your. college buddies or your um you know, your basically your co-workers in the. office because your siblings bring out a. side of you that's a little bit more. authentic, it's a little more human, it. might be a little bit less polished. And. you know, that that gives you a sense of. the real you. I think. you know, over time you visit their. hometown, you get to hear about their.

upbringing, and that can be a real. source of companionship. But. I think also just just confiding in each. other, right? Hey, here's something I'm. grappling with personally. Um I'll tell. you. something that I found really helpful to. to talk with people about when. when I want to show that I'm willing to. be their companion. In high school, one of the the things I discovered was I. became the friend that people called. when they weren't sure who to call. And the reason I think that happened was. because.

I if if you tell me like I don't I don't. want you to solve my problem. I don't. want you to fix this. I just need. somebody to listen. All of a sudden I. become really patient and. non-judgmental. >> Mhm. >> And I really enjoy being that person. And so if you know, if if you're having. an emotional challenge, please call me. I will not judge you. I will be here to. listen to you. That's a conversation I. found really helpful to have with people. as I'm getting to know them. I've also. found that I'm really impatient most of. the time and that's not a good message. for me to communicate except with a very.

small number of people in my life. And I. think what that signals Raj is something. I've seen in in our data that we've. collected. People have fewer companions. on average than they do allies or pals. >> Mhm. >> But we need a mix of all of those in our. lives and something that happens to a. lot of us is we end up with one best. friend or one romantic partner who. basically covers all those bases. So you. might have a partner or a buddy who is. your best ally, your best pal, and your. best companion. And that will bring you closer, but it's.

also bad for your well-being. >> Mhm. Why is it bad for well-being? >> It's bad for your well-being because you. end up putting all your eggs in one. basket. And it means that you end up. over-relying on one person for. everything. They're not always. available. They are not always the best. at fulfilling each of those roles. I. have. I have a good friend from college who is. an amazing pal. We always have fun. together. When I told him that my wife was sick, he said I'm really sorry to hear that. and never mentioned it again.

And at first I was I was kind of. heartbroken. What like why is this guy. such a bad friend? And then I realized. no, he's not a bad friend. I had him in. the companion bucket in my head, but. he's a terrible companion for me and. he's a a good pal. And I just need to. accept and expect that. And now I go to. different people when I'm searching for. companionship and they are much better. suited to provide it. >> Then you talk about companionship, right? Lot of people are horrible at. building a connection with somebody who.

they probably. want to date or who they want to build a. romantic relationship with and they end. up making them pals. >> Yeah. >> Right? Because they don't know how to. actually take things forward. So, let. let's try to make it simpler for people. Let's say if somebody's going out on a. first date, what should they do in the. first 30 minutes to build a certain vibe. which actually engineers a companion. sort of vibe? >> From reading the research on first. dates, my biggest surprise from a paper.

that came out earlier this year, this is. this is Finkel and Eastwick and. colleagues. What they show is that. we actually are as likely to have a good. vibe on a Zoom date virtually as we are. in person. >> Really? >> Shocking, right? >> How? >> There's a lot of evidence that on Zoom, if you spend a lot of time on it, you. don't burn out. Instead, you experience. boreout. Which is you're not overstimulated to. the point of exhaustion, you're. understimulated and you just start to.

zone out. So, how do you square that. with the fact that people actually have. a good time on virtual dates? Well, you. have to control for how much time they. spend because on average, an in-person. date will last about twice as long as a. virtual date because it's just more. energizing. But if you account for the. time spent, it turns out that people are. just as attracted to each other on. virtual dates on average. They're just. as likely to feel that they have a vibe. and they're just as likely to want to go. on a second date afterward. And I think. the main reason for that is our. expectations are low. We think Zoom is.

going to be awful and when somebody. shows up and we're like, "Wow, I'm actually kind of into that person. and I'd love to spend more time with. them." We're pleasantly surprised. And. so, I I actually say my first. recommendation for a first date is don't. be afraid to have the virtual. conversation. It can save you the. awkwardness of the longer bad date in. person and also the time you spent. getting there. And if you do the. initial, you know, 30 minutes and you. like them over Zoom, that's then. actually momentum for a better in-person. second date. And I think that's a great.

place to start. >> Yeah. That's That's a pretty smart. I. But I would always think it sounds. smart. It It sounds like it'll save a. lot of time for a lot of people, but it. I would think the other ways, like in. real life it would be much more better. Like it'll be much better to actually. build a relationship or build a vibe. Like online it'll be horrible. >> I think that. we have You have to remember something. that that the blogger Tim Urban wrote on. Wait, But Why? He said happiness equals.

reality minus expectations. >> Say that again. Happiness. >> Happiness equals reality minus. expectations. >> Okay. >> I think in that one equation Tim. captured about half a century of social. science research. Because what we know. from extensive evidence is you don't. judge your situation relative to. Sorry, let me say that again. What What we know from extensive. evidence is we don't judge our.

circumstances objectively. We compare. them to what we wanted. >> Mhm. >> And I'm not saying that the recipe for. happiness is having low expectations. What I am saying is in situations where. you have low expectations, you can find yourself walking away. saying, "Wow, that went better than I. thought." And that can be a catalyst for. better interactions and better. experiences. And so, when your. expectations are low, you might as well. give it a shot and see how it goes.

>> True. Again, sometimes when you vibe with people, okay, in the beginning, when you you do. all of these things, you're trying to. solve a problem, a puzzle, going to. comedy shows, doing all the things that. we just spoke about, right? The. intensity is high. And you feel an instant vibe, right? Can an instant vibe also be a warning. sign? >> Oh, that's interesting. A warning sign. of what? >> Like, maybe it's it's just flattery. Maybe it's just. >> Mhm.

>> uh status [clears throat] and. projection. Maybe the other person wants. something. It's not really true. >> Oh. Yes. I think that there is the there. actually is evidence to point to that. possibility. So, psychologists have studied what they. call superficial charm, >> Mhm. >> which is kind of the surface charisma. that people show, >> Yeah. >> that masks what might be more. self-centered values or more. Machiavellian intentions. And in fact, psychologists uh have studied what they.

call the dark triad, which is. narcissism, Machiavellianism, and. psychopathy. And if somebody is. superficially charming and you have. extraordinary chemistry with them, it's. possible that you have a narcissist, a. psychopath, or a Machiavellian who's. manipulating you to either feed their. own ego or try to get something from. you. But I don't think it's. automatically a red flag. Some people. are just highly socially skilled or they. just have contagious energy. And. sometimes we just click with other. people because we are in sync and we're.

on a common wavelength. And so, I. wouldn't immediately look at chemistry. as a warning sign. What I would say is. chemistry is not a precursor for. closeness. And just because you don't. like someone doesn't mean you're Sorry, let me say that again. Just because you like someone does not. mean that they care about you. And just. because you like someone does not mean. you are going to like working with them. Which is a message to every pair of. friends who has ever started a company. together. >> [laughter].

>> We'll go deep on both of these things. I. love what you just said. But. I want to ask on that point that you. said it's possible that there are going. to be superficial charmers and you'll. meet them. So, how can you find out that. somebody is just manipulating you. and not actually vibing and connecting. with you? >> Oh, that's such an important question. So, I think we foreshadowed the first. one at the beginning of our. conversation, which is if you're afraid. that you might have a selfish taker. who's a really good faker, what you want. to do is you want to look at how they.

treat people that they're not trying to. get something from. >> Mhm. >> And if they if they have a better. reputation and better relationships with. people who are more influential than. they are than their peers and. subordinates, that is a red flag. That's. the first thing I would do. Second thing I might do is I would ask. them who their role models are. Who do you admire? And often times people reveal their. values through who they look up to. So, if the list of people that they come. back with is a bunch of people who are.

obsessed with only money and power and. fame, that's a signal that they. themselves have very self-serving. values. If they talk about people that. they look up to because they're. generous, they're curious, they're. creative, they're wise, they're humble, you're now seeing that they're more. extrinsically or excuse me, you're now. seeing that they're more intrinsically. motivated rather than extrinsically. motivated. You're seeing that they might. be more concerned about others as. opposed to just out for themselves. I I.

think you can learn a lot about people. from looking at their mo- their role. models and that's that's probably a. second favorite step. >> But don't [snorts] you think society has. conditioned us to look for role models. who are highly ambitious and successful. and most of them. and majority of times they are these. power-hungry or like super obsessed. people who are out there. Those are the. names that come in your head for the. first time. >> They might be top of mind, but anybody. who takes the time to think about who's. my role model. is thinking not just about what's the.

result that I want, but also what kind. of person do I want to be. So, when I. teach my first class at Wharton, um I have my new students come in and. the first question I ask them to answer. as a whole group is who is your biggest. role model as a leader? Who is the one. leader alive or dead that you admire. most? And the range in the room is striking. I have heard all the way from Elon Musk. to Jacinda Ardern to Martin Luther King. Jr.

to Mahatma Gandhi and. actually a lot of the answers are. athletes and sports coaches. And I. think, you know, then the question is, well, what do you admire about them? And. I want to know, do you admire the, you. know, the basically the rewards they've. gotten or do you admire the character. they've demonstrated? And you can start. to see that, right? You can push people. on this. You can say, look, you know, there are lots of successful people in. the world. Tell me the ones that you. would most like to emulate.

Who's path would you most love to. follow? And that might get a different. kind of answer than just the usual. suspects of, you know, famous, rich, powerful people. >> Mhm. Who is your role model? >> So, I actually I have a hard time. answering this question because I have. discovered over time that having met a. lot of my role models, they didn't live. up to the expectations, right? People. say never meet your heroes. >> Yeah. >> I don't think that's true. Some of them. have exceeded my expectations, but what. I've tried to do is I've tried to get. more nuanced and say I have role models.

for particular virtues. So, it's pretty unlikely, Raj, that. there's one person who exemplifies. everything I care about. My values include generosity, integrity, excellence, humility, curiosity. One. person who's a paragon of all of those. probably doesn't exist. I can tell you. who my role models are for particular. virtues though, if you ask. >> Choose any. Choose any one virtue, one role model, and why. >> Okay, so I'm going to say. one one role model I have is Daryl.

Davis. Daryl Davis is a role model for. me of extraordinary generosity and. curiosity. I wrote about him in Think. Again. He is a jazz musician. who has single-handedly talked more than. 200 white supremacists out of the Ku. Klux Klan, a hate group. And as a black man, he's put himself at. extraordinary personal risk to even have. these conversations to begin with, and. it it should not be his responsibility.

to do that. But. he he ended up meeting this, you know, this really hateful white supremacist at. a club that that he was playing jazz at, and he didn't know that the guy was a. member of the KKK. And then the guy revealed it to him. He'd never had a conversation with a. black man before. And Daryl just asked him this question. that he'd been wondering about since he. first discovered prejudice when when he. was about 10 years old. He said, "How. can you hate me when you don't even know.

me?". And the guy got very quiet, and he. couldn't answer the question. And that. started a a bit of a a friendship, and. over a series of months. the guy started to rethink his hateful. beliefs and ultimately abandoned the Ku. Klux Klan, and uh Daryl realized he was. onto something. And the patience that he has, the. genuine interest in understanding. somebody else's views and motivations, I I just think is admirable, and I'd. love to see more of that in the world. So, Daryl is is one of my role models.

for multiple virtues. >> Did that shift something in you? Did you. start following that? >> It did. It I I think that, you know, I I. had a student once call me a logic. bully. >> Okay. >> And my wife had to explain to me that. that was not a compliment. >> [laughter]. >> What do you I was honestly confused when. when Alison explained to me. She's like, "People do not enjoy being hammered with. data and facts until they admit how. stupid their old views were." I'm like, "Yeah, I've been doing that my whole.

life. I have been like a prosecuting. attorney. If I think you're wrong, I. believe it's my professional. responsibility and my moral. responsibility to correct you.". And that never goes well, right? When I. go into prosecutor mode, the other. person brings their best defense. attorney to court. And then nobody. learns anything. And meeting Daryl. really has changed the way that that I. interact with other people. If I think. you're wrong, following his approach and. the science of motivational. interviewing, I'm less likely now to. tell you, "You know, actually, like.

there's a whole body of evidence that. says your beliefs are false and let me. enlighten you about that.". I am much more likely to say, "Raj, it's. so interesting that you think that. Tell. me what evidence would change your. mind.". >> Mhm. >> That question has been a game-changer. for me because when I ask you, "Tell me. what evidence would change your mind?". I'm asking you to make two commitments. The first commitment is that there is. something that would change your mind. And secondly, you're willing to have. this debate in the realm of data. >> Yeah. Interesting. Because we are, let's.

say, talking about human nature, tell me. one thing you were wrong about human. nature. >> Oh, I mean, there's like this is my. entire education as a psychologist was. having to rethink many of my assumptions. about human nature. I think. one of the biggest ones that I had was I. thought that personality was shaped. mostly by nurture. By our parents and by our life. experiences. And that has just been. falsified empirically. Uh I think we dramatically underestimate.

the effects of nature on our. personality. And so. I'm an introvert. >> Mhm. >> I I I'm pretty shy. And I thought that that was because of. my upbringing. No, it turns out that on. average over half of the variance in. introversion extraversion is heritable. genetically. Um, it's in my biology. You. can actually see it in an fMRI scan of. my brain. And so, that that really. overturned a lot of my thinking because. I thought that like the the key to I I.

chose a career where like if I had At. first I was teaching classes, then I was. giving TED Talks. I'm doing podcasts. I. have to put myself out there a lot. >> Yeah. >> That does not seem like the kind of. thing that an introvert could get. comfortable doing. And so, I thought. intuitively that I had to become more. extroverted. Knowing that biologically I. have a predisposition to toward. introversion, what I know is that. personality is my tendency. It is not my. destiny. And. I can choose to engage in like in this.

conversation more outgoing behaviors. than would be my first instinct. But if. I overdo that, I'm going to burn myself. out and exhaust myself. And so, I. haven't tried to change my personality. I've tried to adapt my personality and. say, "I'm going to pick particular weeks. a year where I'm on stage. And I'm also. going to have weeks where I do not. engage with other people outside my. family very much." Um, even my teaching. schedule is is choreographed so that I. do all my teaching in the fall. And then.

I have January through July to do a lot. of thinking, research, data analysis, reading, and writing because I know in. my teaching semester I'm just not I'm. not on to do the same quality of. thinking that I would when I have more. freedom. And that that was a, you know, it just turned my whole thinking about. how to manage my personality upside. down. >> But what made you believe that you're. naturally born as, let's say, an. introvert and no one can not change. that?

>> I don't think that it can't change it, but I think we change relative to our. own baseline. So, I think the most. persuasive data for me were their. studies of monozygotic twins. So, these. are twins who are identical. These are identical twins. They share. 100% of their DNA. But, they're separated at birth and. raised in different families in. different cities, which is terrible for. them, but helpful for science. No, it's just sad, actually. All joking. aside, it's it's terrible that that ever. happens. But, what it does allow psychologists to.

do is to then look at their adult. personalities. And if you look at those twins who were. raised in completely different. environments, in different homes, they share on average about 50 to 60% of. their personality traits. Which is a tremendous amount of overlap. >> Yeah. >> And you know, you you there are some. cases that have come out in the data. like two two twins who were separated at. birth, both became firefighters, both. wear a rubber band on their left wrist,

and both smash uh. a a can of soda on their forehead as a. little party trick. What are the odds that they would all. They they They were doing the same thing. >> Exactly. In two different place, and they didn't. even know each other. >> They didn't even know each other, and. they were remarkably alike. And so, what. that what that tells me is we have an. instinct for how to think, feel, and. act. But, it's up to us whether we want. to override that instinct or not. And I. think that this is you know, this is why.

I say personality is not your destiny, it's just a tendency. And I think what what a lot of people do. is they miss they kind of confuse. personality and values, and they are not. the same. I think your personality is how you show. up on a typical day. Your values are how. you show up on a hard day. Right? So, when I think about my values, it is easy to be kind and wise and. curious when things are going great. The. real test of my character and of. everyone's character, I think, is how do. you treat people when the deck is.

stacked against you. >> Mhm. >> And I think that for a lot of us, we. actually have to override our. personality to say, "Look, I didn't. choose to be wired this way. I did pick. my values. I selected guiding principles. that are really important to me, and. that's how I want to operate.". >> This is I love this. I love that. just a random question helped me. discover a new thing about just nurture. and nature. I would have never thought. of this. I don't know why. But it makes so much sense. Tell me Tell.

me something more about this. Okay, let's say. if I have to ask flip this question and. ask him. tell me something about human nature you. wish you didn't know. >> [laughter]. >> I mean, here here's a really simple one. I. I wish I didn't know that a surprising. number of people in a typical population. have had a homicidal thought. This is research by a a very provocative. and sometimes controversial.

psychologist, David Buss, where. he basically argues that, you know, we. we evolved to, you know, if necessary, be ready to kill. And so, when somebody. really pushes your buttons, uh you could have a strong aggressive. instinct. That's not me. I have never had a. homicidal thought. I I probably get. actually angry once. a decade or so. Um it's just it's not it's not in my. constitution, and I don't like I don't.

like interacting with people thinking. there's a possibility that in different. circumstances this person might have. gotten into such a rage that they could. want to do someone severe bodily harm. I. I would prefer not to know that. >> Yeah, nobody would. like to know that. But is that true? Like is that like proven? >> I mean, it's. >> lot of people just like inherently they. have these thoughts? >> I think, you know, it's it's hard to. really know what anybody thinks and. feels, right? But by the best the excuse.

me, the best methods that we have to to. survey and interview people, um I think many psychologists believe. it's true, but I I think I can give you. a better one uh that I I wish I didn't. know. Um. Uh here's here's one that actually like. it's not so depressing and it'll. probably serve your audience better. So, I'm I'm rethinking in real time. Scratch. that. I don't know how confident I am in. the murderer data anyway. Um here's here's what I would like to. unknow right now. I would like to unknow the fact that.

half of the people you think of as. friends do not see you as a friend back. >> No way. >> This is something social sociologists. have found repeatedly. >> Half of the people who I think are my. friends, they don't think that I'm their. friend. >> Correct. On average. >> Okay, explain more. Give me give me tell. me more. This is I didn't want to know. this. >> [laughter]. >> I mean I I didn't either, but I think it. has a silver lining. Okay. So, the what sociologists do is in a lot of. the studies, they will ask you to list a. bunch of people you know.

>> Mhm. >> And then they ask you which ones are. your friends, which ones aren't. And. then they give that list to all the. people on it and they say which of these. people are your friends and which ones. aren't. And on average, half of your. friends do not friend you back. >> And why? >> Depressing at first. Why I I think the. it's an open question. I think. part of it is we are just not always. clear on how people think of us. And. I think that's a little bit that's sad,

right? Part of it though is people have really. different definitions of friend. And. some people think if we had one good. conversation in the last month, we're. automatically friends. Others have a. much higher bar. And some people are. just they're only thinking of companions. as their friends. Whereas other people. include distant pals. And I think that that can lead to a. different answer. Here's the good news. about that. That also means that there are a bunch. of people that you don't think you're. friends with who see you as a friend. And those are opportunities for.

connection you're probably missing right. now. >> How can I find that out? >> I don't know. That's a really good question. How would. you find that out? I think the only way to find that out is. to put yourself out there, to reach out. to some people that you might consider. acquaintances, and propose a pal, ally, or companion interaction, and see if. they're interested, and see how it goes. >> And how can I find out people who don't. think that I'm their [laughter] friend? Because that's also important. >> you want to find that out. I think No, I. think the same thing, which is you you.

propose more interaction, and you see. how they react to it. I actually think. there's an overlooked group of people. that we ought to we ought to be reaching. out to that we don't. So, you know the. distinction between strong ties and weak. ties, right? >> Yeah, go ahead and explain one more time. if you like for the audience who's. listening for the first time. >> Sure. So, strong ties are are basically. the people we interact with regularly. and feel close to. They are our go-to. allies, our you know, our key. companions, our regular pals. Weak ties.

are the more distant acquaintances. They're somebody that if you desperately. needed help, you might call them as an. ally, or you might hang out with them if. you ran into them in a foreign country, but you wouldn't schedule plans with. them as a pal. Um. and. I think what we know from half a century. of research is you are more likely to. get useful help ironically from your. weak ties than your strong ties. >> Yeah. >> Because your strong ties, despite being. available to you, also have a lot of. redundant information. They know the. same people and the same things that you. do. Whereas your weak ties, they travel.

in different circles, they meet. different people, they can learn. different things, they can open new. doors for you. The problem, Raj, is it's. really hard to reach out to a weak tie. and say, "Hey, can I help you?" Or even. sometimes, "I'd love to hang out.". You're putting yourself out there. And I I that, you know, a lot of people. just decide it's not worth it. I don't. want to ask a weak tie for help. I don't. think that, you know, it's my place to. ask them to be my ally or companion or. they're not going to want to hang out as. a pal. So, I'm not going to bother. And that's that's one of the ways we. just miss out on a lot of connections.

Well, there's another kind of tie that. can give you the best of both worlds. Both the the familiarity and trust of. your strong ties, but also the new. perspectives of your weak ties. Those. are called dormant ties. >> Dormant ties. >> Dormant ties. They are the people you. used to know. That you've lost touch in the last 2, 5, 8 years. What researchers show is. we are too hesitant to reach out to our. dormant ties. We are reluctant to. contact them because we think, well,

those ties are dormant for a reason. But actually most ties are not dormant. for a good reason. We didn't mean to fall out of touch. We. got busy. We moved. We changed jobs. We. had kids. And. there is a reservoir of goodwill in the. relationships with people you used to. know. In the studies, when people. reconnect, 90% of the time they find it. enjoyable. Not only is it enjoyable, but you.

actually end up getting better help from. your dormant ties, the people you used. to know, than the people you currently. know. So, you can see this in studies uh. with with people in their jobs. If you. randomly assign executives, for example, to reach out to a dormant tie and get. advice on a project, they actually get. better help, better information than a. current contact advising them on that. same project. And the dormant tie is. giving them, "Hey, here's something, you. know, I've I've got a whole viewpoint. that you haven't accessed in the last, you know, 7 years since we talked.".

And I think for me what that raises is. the big question of how can we get. better at reconnecting? How do you. reactivate these dormant ties that that. maybe you've lost touch with? How do you. do that, Raj? >> How Oh, I was going to ask you how to do. that. But. I am pretty So, I read this strong ties. and weak ties concept from you only. Like, I think somewhere I read it or I. heard it from you. And. I'm pretty okay in reconnecting with my. old.

connection which I've lost touch with. I. instantly think about, let's say, 20. things that I'm going through and if I. think that. two things. uh on these two things somebody from my. old tie can help me, I just text them. and tell them that this is what I'm. going through and you were the first. person who came in my mind. I don't know. where you are at in your life, but I. would love to have a conversation with. you. >> Wow, I love it. So, you don't hesitate? >> Not at all. I'm I'm very. I find it very natural to just like talk.

to people and ask them for help and. always be there for them when they need. help. >> That's I I think that's a really. important distinction because a lot of. people are worried that if they reach. out and ask for help, they're going to. get seen as a taker. And they say, "I. don't want to be a taker. I want to be a. giver." And I When I hear that, I say, "Great. Why don't you reach out to. somebody that you lost touch with and. say, 'Hey, I would love to find out. what's going on in your life and how I. can be helpful?'". >> Yeah. >> Something I mean, there's no reason why. you can't offer to be supportive as. opposed to just seeking help. And that. that makes it much less transactional.

So, I think that's a that's a good. approach. I think. other ways um my my favorite habits are. I'm coming into your city. Um you know, I'm I'm going to be in town. I would. love to get together. Only I have too. many dormant ties in my life now. I. teach a lot of students every year. Um I. think I've I've had the good fortune of, you know, of I guess being involved in. lots of different worlds and I never. have enough time to see people when I'm. traveling. So, what I've started doing. lately is I'll reach out to anywhere.

between 5 and and maybe 15 people that I. miss. And I'll say, "Hey, I'm coming to. town. I would love to get together with. a group of my favorite people for. dinner, and you're one of them.". >> [snorts]. >> And then what happens is we have this. great experience of not only catching up. with each other, but I also get to. connect them to other people that I. think they would they would enjoy. And. so that is a contribution to their. lives. >> Nice. >> And then something happens afterward, which is inevitably, a few weeks later, I will hear from a pair of them or a. trio of them saying, "Hey,

we've actually really hit it off, and. now that gives me an excuse to to be. more part of their lives, and I feel. like, you know, I I get the joy of. making the connection, but also it helps. me stay connected, and I don't have to. then reconnect every time I go back to. their place.". >> Nice. You know, something like this I. do, like a version of this. It's. >> Tell me. >> It's. I also, because of my work, I happen to. know like a lot of people, and I've lost. touch with them, right? So what I do is,

if I'm traveling, if I'm going. somewhere, and instantly I think of. somebody or something, like just maybe, let's say, talking to you reminded me of. Ian, for example, right? Instantly after this conversation, I'm. just going to text them and be like, "Hey, you know what? This reminded me of. you, and. I know that we've haven't talked in a. while. I hope that you're doing good in. your life. If there's anything that I. can I I can help you with, please let me. know, and I would love to catch up if. you're here in the city.". >> Boom. What you just did right there is. called pebbling.

>> Pebbling? >> Pebbling is my favorite way to both. strengthen a bond with somebody you. don't know well, but also reconnect with. somebody that you've fallen out of. contact with. >> Okay. What is pebbling? Explain it. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, it it's not intuitive at all. So. the term the term originally comes from. a a ritual, a courting ritual among. penguins. Some penguins, when they're trying to. impress a mate, they'll present. Actually, when they're trying to impress. a potential mate, they collect um they.

go and collect smooth stones, and then. they present them, which is basically. showing, "Hey, I'm suitable as a mate. I. can use these to build a nest with you.". And, you know, nobody's gotten inside a. penguin's head to know that they're. that's actually what they're thinking, right? But, the ritual is penguins are. going and finding a little pebble. They're presenting it to a potential. partner, and it's a catalyst for a bond. I think the modern digital equivalent of. that penguin ritual of pebbling is.

sending somebody an article, a meme, a. reel, a link, something that reminded. you of them. And there have been multiple studies now. showing that when you reach out to. somebody, either that you just met or. somebody you haven't been in touch with. in a while, and you say, "Hey, I read. this article. I think you would love. it." Or I watched this reel, it cracked. me up. I know you'll find it hilarious. That actually brings you closer together. because [clears throat] they're. surprised that you thought of them.

Right? Every single pebble that you send. is a bid for connection. Each pebble is a bid for connection. Every pebble is a little gesture of. care. And. I think it's important to clarify, Raj, that you are not spamming them with. random junk you found on the internet, right? You're You're taking the time to. pick out something that was actually. personalized to them. And that's a. memory flex. You are proving that you. paid attention to what they cared about, what they find interesting. Maybe you. remembered a common experience or an.

offhand comment they made to you. I'll. give you a small example of this. I I. reconnected with a college friend after. literally a decade of no interaction. And in our first email exchange, she. remembered my favorite movie. And I. couldn't believe it. I didn't even. remember that I told her what my. favorite movie was. And that said to me, "Wow, this is. somebody who really takes the time to. notice what matters to me. And this is. somebody who who cared about our. connection even when we were out of. touch. >> Interesting. You know, this is a great.

way of doing things. But tell me. what I do, is that wrong? Because. sometimes I don't even know. like I don't remember details about. let's say some connection. And I would admit that in that text. I. would upfront be like, "Hey, you know, I've forgotten. everything about this. I don't even. know, but this particular thing reminded. me a few, so. just I would love to. you know, maybe get in touch again or if.

there's anything I can help you with, let me know. Like I'm I'm admitting. upfront that hey, I've forgotten half of. the things that we did together.". >> I don't I don't have any problem with. that. I think. in general, we tend to judge people. um. well, no. I guess I guess what I would. say on that is. I think first of all, that admission is. probably a little bit endearing. It's an. unexpected moment of vulnerability and. authenticity. And it's also coupled with. you having thought of them. Right? And.

the fact that you thought of them, that's what really counts. You don't. have to have memorized. >> everything you've ever shared with. everybody, yeah. >> No, no, [laughter] but a little detail, right? You don't even have to remember a single. conversation you had with them. If you. remember their taste, their preferences, their curiosity, their goals, right? You. had to have a little bit of a sense of. them. in order to say, "Hey, I thought of this. for you." And if you didn't totally miss. the mark, that is still a meaningful. gesture.

>> Mhm. True. You know, there's one more. thing, like when you talk to people and. when you build connection in the first. go, right? There's something called. instinct. You instinctively know that this person. is not right for you. Right? And. sometimes you're right about it, but. sometimes you're wrong about it. >> Yep. >> So, how to know when to trust my. instinct and when to not trust my. instinct. >> That's a hard question. It's much more. art than science, I think, person-to-person, interaction-to-interaction.

I think the first thing to know though. is that some of the people that we end. up liking most are the people we started. out disliking. >> Really? >> Yeah, this is a classic finding in. psychology and. >> The people who I dislike in the. beginning, I ended up liking them more. >> Some of our Yeah, some of our favorite. people in our lives, our go-to pals, our. most reliable companions and allies, are. people we started out kind of disliking. >> Why and how? >> Okay, so [laughter]. the why is that we saw them in one.

context and that context brought out. aspects of each of us that clashed. And. you know, I think you can see this and. there's some really easy, familiar. examples. Uh Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova. did not get along on the tennis court. They were rivals. Uh and they were. famously they had a pretty icy. relationship. So, they clashed in that. context, but then. they retire from tennis and all of a. sudden they realize there are not many. other people on Earth who have lived.

what we lived. And they also end up. having some shared experiences. They. both become venture capitalists and they. start investing. They also both become. mothers and they have, you know, having. children in common and all of a sudden. they're not, you know, directly pitted. against each other and they realize we. actually have a lot of reasons to to get. along. Larry Page and Sergey Brin. uh the two of them met at an orientation. at Excuse me, they met at a a Stanford.

orientation for computer science grad. students and they found each other. annoying and obnoxious and they were. kind of both know-it-alls. And then they get into the computer lab. and they realize that in that context. they both are frustrated with how. inefficient search engines are and they. end up building Google together. And you know, again, they met in one. setting where they were each trying to. be the smartest person in their class or. the most you know, to have the right. answer in that interaction and they you.

know, they were basically their their. incentives were to compete. When they. had a reason to cooperate, a different. side of them came out. And. Okay, so that's that's the why is. personality is not just a set of. tendencies that we carry with us across. situations. It's also a dynamic set of. if-then signatures. That's what. psychologists call them. Um, I think the. easiest illustration of this is uh, I. have um, I have a colleague who I have a really.

hard time knowing whether he is going to. be friendly or whether he's going to be. antagonistic. >> Yeah. >> And what I discovered over time was he's. actually an authoritarian. Um, if you've. ever watched the American Office, he's. like Dwight Schrute. Uh, you haven't seen it. Okay. >> So, basically the pattern of. authoritarian, excuse me, the pattern of. authoritarianism is you are deferential. and submissive with your superiors, but.

then you are very controlling and. dominant with your subordinates. And so, if you meet this colleague of. mine and you have power, you will think. that he's the most cooperative, easy-going person you've ever met. If you lack power, you will if you will. think he's a micromanager, he's a slave. driver and you'll see a very different. side of him. And that's a different if. bringing out a different then. So, I think the way you apply this, do. you know um, the Narnia and Lord of the Rings books. and movies? >> Yeah. >> Okay, so C.S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien.

who wrote those, uh, they they basically. made each other's careers because they. were Oxford professors, uh, lecturers. and they they they kind of were doing. fiction on the side as a hobby, but they. weren't intending to make a career out. of publishing it. And they encouraged. each other, they gave each other. constructive criticism, they started a. book club, and they actually developed. their manuscripts side by side. And so, if the two of them hadn't bonded, we.

would not have Narnia or The Lord of the. Rings. What's so interesting about their. relationship is they could not stand. each other when they first met in the. 1920s. [clears throat]. The two of them met at a faculty. meeting, and they immediately clashed. Um, Tolkien insulted Lewis's favorite. novel, and Lewis wrote in his diary that. night that he needs a smack or so. Like, somebody needs to slap him. He disliked. him so much. They show up at faculty. meetings for months and months, and they. are on opposite sides of a heated debate.

about whether the English curriculum. should prioritize contemporary or. classic material, and they are basically. fighting every time they interact. And. that could have been the end of their. relationship. And yet, >> [snorts]. >> Tolkien ended up starting a. a little club to talk about, um, Icelandic mythology. And C. S. Lewis. liked He liked Norse myths. And, um, he. was like, "You know what? I'm a fan of. Norse mythology. I'm going to show up, even though that that Anglo-Saxon.

Professor Tolkien that I I really. dislike is running it.". And they ended up just getting into a a. different kind of conversation about. Asgard and Thor and the giants, and they. they were actually up from 11:30 p.m. to. 2:30 a.m. having this great conversation. about Norse mythology. Within a year of. that conversation, they were best. friends, and they were starting to. encourage each other to become fantasy. novelists. And. I think one of the reasons that a. relationship like that can start off on.

the wrong foot and then get onto the. right foot is they had to change their. context to find a reason to come. together. But then, they also had to work really. hard to overcome the initial feelings of. animosity they had toward each other. And that's a lot of cognitive dissonance. of, "Wow, I really didn't like that guy. But you know what? I'm kind of enjoying. hanging out with him.". I have to work hard now. You have to. work hard to convince yourself that he's. not as bad as you thought. And the. effort we put in to changing our own. minds actually can crystallize and.

solidify those bonds into something much. stronger. >> So should I not trust myself if I like. someone? >> [laughter]. >> Or should I not trust myself if I. dislike someone? >> Well, this this goes back I think to. your original question of how do you. know when to trust your intuition or. not? And. I think what I would say is we should be. careful about snap judgments because you. are actually not getting the other. person's vibe. You are getting the. dynamic between the two of you in a. particular setting.

And so what I want to know is what. happens when you interact in different. environments, around different topics, or do different activities together. >> Mhm. >> Um the the snap judgment is your first. impression. It's a narrow slice of the. person. I want to see the full range. I. want to watch them shapeshift and see. all the different if-thens that they're. capable of. And you're not going to try. that with every person. >> Yeah. >> But. if you meet somebody and you don't like. them initially, instead of writing them. off altogether, which closes you off to. the possibility of connecting, I would.

say, "Okay, let's be really clear about. what behaviors I didn't like of that. person and when I saw them. And now let. me just keep observing as I run into. them more and see if there's a shift.". >> So tell me. if we have to make it simpler for. people, if we make let's say three boxes. in this. Someone I like, someone I trust, and. someone who's good for me. What will be the signs? How do I find. out? Because what we are essentially. saying we are com- we are coming back to.

these three things. And they both and. all three of them look different to me. after this conversation. Earlier it used. to be like, oh, I like this person. I. should trust this person and he or she. must be good for me. But right now. they're all three different things. >> Yeah. >> Right? So can we like should I give you. like a. piece of paper or like a whiteboard to. draw three things here? Perfect. >> You're going to have to suffer through. my handwriting now, but I'll try. >> I'm good. >> All right, here we go.

So we want like, trust, and benefit from. Right? >> Yeah, someone who's good for me. So. benefit is that, yeah. >> Yep, okay. So the person you like, I. think the easiest signal of that is. going to be a pal. I think you're going. to you're just going to feel joy and. energy in the interaction and the. clearest sign that you like somebody is. you laugh together. Uh so. laughing is the most basic, I think.

>> Okay, nice. Yeah. >> Um. I think when it comes to trust, I think that we're we're probably. talking about um an ally is the person. that you often will will trust. And that. is probably I'm looking there for. responsiveness. >> Responsiveness. Explain more. >> I think the most important form of trust. is reliability. And that's more than having good.

intentions. It's actually having the. integrity to follow through on your. intentions. And so that is when you have. a problem, you know this person will. drop everything to help you solve it if. it's a big deal. And you also know that when this person. makes a commitment, they're not going to. back out at the last minute. >> Mhm. >> And so I think that that responsiveness. of, you know what, they might go weeks. without responding to your random pebble. text, but when you say, hey, I could. really use your help, they are there. >> Mhm. So, the how fast are they.

responding to the time when you need the. help? >> Exactly. Yeah, are they are they. reliable in a in a time of both in Yeah, exactly. Are they reliable in a time of. need? And then I think the the greatest. benefit long-term comes from companions. And I think the reason for that is these. are the people you open up to the most. They see kind of they see all of your. shortcomings, your flaws, your foibles, your insecurities, and they are in the. best position to help you grow in the. long term.

And I think the signal that somebody is. a great companion is tough love. >> [gasps]. >> You're looking for the person who tells. you that you have broccoli in your. teeth. Who says, you know what? I feel a little uncomfortable pointing. this out, but you know what's even more. uncomfortable than me telling you you. have food in your teeth is me not. telling you and letting you embarrass. yourself in front of the next eight. people that you meet. They are the people who would tell you. the things you don't want to hear, but. you desperately need to hear. >> Yeah. >> And I don't think we spend enough time.

looking at tough love as a signal of. companionship. If somebody takes the. time to tell you a hard truth, it. usually means that they believe in your. potential, they care about your. well-being and your success, and the. relationship is important enough to them. that they are making an investment in. saying something that is not easy to to. communicate, um but they're doing it. because they either want to help you or. they believe that it's their. responsibility to say it to you if other.

people aren't. >> True. I have one one follow-up on both. of these. >> Yeah, tell me. >> So, trust. Can we trust people who we don't like? >> Yes. We often end up trusting people we. don't like. >> Why? >> Because I think that this goes back to. the point that you might like someone, but you don't like working with them. And the reason for that is you might. have complementary skills, and they're. really good at helping you achieve your. goals, but your personalities are.

diametrically opposed, or you even have. some values that clash. >> Mhm. >> The reverse can be true, too. You can trust people you don't like. Uh. they might be actually Abraham Lincoln. is a great example of this. Uh Lincoln. uh you know about his team of rivals? >> No. >> Okay, so Lincoln, I think most. historians and political scientists. agree that he was the greatest American. president. Lincoln is such an interesting example. because after he got elected to the. presidency, he asked his political.

opponents to join his cabinet. I wish we had politicians doing that. today. And Lincoln understood that the people. who disagreed with him made him better. >> Mhm. >> One of the the allies uh in his cabinet. was Edwin Stanton. Edwin Stanton. >> [clears throat]. >> was basically everyone's least favorite. person. Um he had no sense of humor. He complained when Lincoln cracked a. joke. Uh he was not the guy that you want to. have drinks with after work.

And Lincoln understood that. He did not. like the guy at all, uh but he also knew. that he was an extremely steadfast and. loyal person. He knew that this guy was tenacious. He. was full of grit, and he made him his. war secretary because he knew that was. the person he could count on actually to. try and prevent a civil war. And. he also had the good sense to not have. interactions outside of work with him. because he recognized Stanton was an.

amazing ally once their goals were. aligned, but he was not pal material. And I think this goes to the more. general point. Um I got to see this up. close when I studied astronauts and. cosmonauts at NASA. I studied a crew of. it was an American, an Italian, and a. Russian. And it's going to sound like a. bad joke because of that. [laughter]. Yeah, an American, a Russian, and an. Italian walk into outer space. >> Yeah. >> But this true this crew. it was it was a crew of three people who. clash in all kinds of different ways.

And they had to learn to trust each. other even though they didn't like each. other. And what they learned was that. trust was not about saying, you know. what, we're going to have fun. interactions all the time. It was not about saying, we want to we. want to be in each other's lives when. we're not on the International Space. Station together. It was about saying, we have a mission. to accomplish together. And I recognize. that you are the most capable qualified. person to do this mission with me. And I.

also recognize that you are so committed. to the mission that I am willing to put. my life in your hands. And I think this is something people. often fail to understand is when you're. working with with somebody in a group or. a team, you don't actually need to bond. within the group. You need to bond. together to the group. And this is something psychologists have. shown in data from thousands and. thousands of people, dozens of studies. It's called task cohesion versus social. cohesion. So task cohesion is we're.

aligned around a goal. Social cohesion. is we sing Kumbaya and we're aligned. around wanting to hang out together. And it turns out if you want to predict. a team's effectiveness, task cohesion is. more important than social cohesion. We. do not need to agree with each other to. be aligned with each other. We do not. need to like each other to work well. together. >> But. how do I trust somebody I don't like? I. know that let's say this person is. capable. >> Yep. >> And I know this person can help me.

get better. But. my judgment that I don't like him. >> Yep. >> prevents me and stops me to trust him. So how do I trust this person? What are. the signs? Like what should I look for? Is it that is he or she equally. motivated to achieve that goal. or no? Because. at the back of my head. maybe that person is the most capable. person but I think that my that person. might stab me because that person also.

doesn't like me. >> Yeah. So I think goal alignment is the. beginning. You need to look at whether. you share a commitment to a common. mission. And I think beyond that, the mistake. that a lot of people make is they're. trying to gauge compatibility and. they're saying, "Okay, what do we have. enough in common up front in terms of. our goals and our values to be able to. to work effectively together?". That's the wrong question. Compatibility. is rarely something you discover in your. first interaction. It's something you.

develop through repeated interactions. So what I would be looking for is how. can I create a set of shared experiences. that allow us to build up the level of. trust and earn it to each other, to. prove it to each other. Um I would I what I would say let me let. me give you the astronaut example cuz I. think it's it's really vivid. So. if you look at what NASA did, they had a. really hard time getting this initial. crew to come together and to to really. believe they could trust each other. And they ended up sending them to the.

wilderness to to get lost in the. mountains. They had a an outdoor. leadership guide who basically said, "Good luck.". and left them on their own. And they had to solve hard problems. together. They had to figure out where. they were going to camp when it was. freezing at night. They had to figure. out how they're going to find food. And. through doing that, you see the best and. the worst of each person. And that allows you to get much more. nuanced about trust. I think this is a. big mistake that people make when they. assess trust. They ask, "Can I trust. you?" That's the wrong question. The.

right question is, "What can I trust you. to do?". >> Mhm. >> Raj, can I trust you to ask thoughtful. questions as a podcaster? >> Yes. >> Yeah, that was really easy for me to. vet. I can I can pull up a lot of. conversations you've had on YouTube. I. can also ask a bunch of former guests of. yours that I know. And that's that's clear, right? Can I. trust you to make a good dinner? I don't know. >> Yeah. >> Can I trust you to navigate New York. City if I get lost? Don't know.

Right? So, the question is not do I. trust you, it's when do I trust you? >> The context. >> Can I trust you with? It goes back to. context. So, I think what you want to. do, if you're trying to develop. trustworthiness, if you're trying to. earn somebody's trust, or build a. collaboration where you have trust, what. you want to do is interact with them in. a range of challenging situations, so. that you can see where are they capable. and reliable, and where are they not. Um. I've I've tried to explain this to my. collaborators and just give them a a. shortcut on this. So, I I actually I. learned this from some leaders I was.

working with. You know how when you you. get a a new piece of technology, it. comes with the user uh sorry. You know how when you you get a new. phone, or a TV, or a computer, it comes. with a user manual? And it gives you instructions for how to. operate it, and how to troubleshoot it? Well, the advice I got was to create my own. user manual. Because humans are at least as complex. as machines. I would hope more so. And I asked a bunch of my collaborators. to write out a one-page document for.

what they wish they knew about me when. we first met. And I started giving that then to new. people I was working with, to say, "Look, you might want to know that I. will respond extremely quickly. um to any important message I get. most of the time. I will be extremely. slow if you send me anything that's not. urgent or important when I'm working on. a big creative project, like a book.". And I didn't even realize that was that. was a pattern of mine, but it was an. if-then. signature that one of my my colleagues.

pointed out. And all of a sudden, for. the rest of my team to know that, means. they will they will be much more. proactive in, you know, calling me, emailing me, texting me if I'm in the. middle in the middle of book writing. because my normal responsiveness kind of. falls falls by the wayside. Um in that. document is also a description of how I. run 5 to 10 minutes late, sometimes a. little bit more, for anything that has a. slightly flexible start time.

But if the timing is important and. there's an audience of people waiting. for me, like a class or I'm giving a. keynote speech, I will do my best to be. early. And right, knowing that allows. you then to know when you can trust me. and when you can't. >> Mhm. Interesting. [clears throat]. Help me this, okay? So, let's let's. let's make this as a user manual. We help everyone who's watching this. build their own user manual so that they. can hand that out to the people they are. working with or they're going to. collaborate with. What are the questions.

or the things they should include in. their user manual? Like give me the. list. >> Okay, so we'll we'll start with the with. the strength side. Uh this comes from research that my. colleagues did at the University of. Michigan on what they call the reflected. best self portrait. And the idea is that we all have. strengths that are invisible to us, just. like we have weaknesses that that are. sometimes called blind spots. And the. best way to know your your invisible. strengths is to ask the people around. you, who am I when I'm at my best? So, that's the first question I would. start with is, tell me about a time when.

I was at my best. And don't just. describe the strength, tell me the. situation where I used it so I can. figure out the context where it's. relevant. And I'm going to ask a bunch. of people that. And the strengths that. are going to be the center of my user. manual are the ones that multiple people. mention that also carry across different. contexts. >> Interesting. So, that's the first. question. >> That's the first question. The second. question is, tell me something that. I should not be trusted to do. Tell me something that you would not. count on me for. Sometimes people are a.

little hesitant to answer that question. So, a variation that a former student. gave me that I love is, "Tell me. something positive that I am not.". >> [laughter]. >> And people are are pretty forthcoming on. that. And again, you take that. information and the the more it. triangulates across people who know you. in different parts of your life. If you. get the same feedback from a pal, an. ally, or and a companion, or from a. family member, a friend, and a. colleague, you know that is a pervasive. strength or a real shortcoming of yours.

>> Okay. That's second. Just two questions? >> I think that's all you need. And you. need a big enough sample of people that. you're getting consistent answers. So, I. would I would say a good user manual is. not built by talking to two or three. people. It's built by talking to eight. or 10 people, maybe even 15 or 20. >> Got it. So, let's flip it. Let's say. because you're talking about can we. trust people Should we trust people who. we don't like? Can we like people who we can't trust? >> Definitely. >> Yeah.

>> And we should not trust them. >> No, I mean that I think in a lot of. cases that's the superficial charm we. were talking about earlier. >> Mhm. >> It's also potentially a pal who is the. ideal person. >> Mhm. >> to plan your bachelor or bachelorette. party, but you do you can't count on. them to be in your wedding party. You don't want them uh knowing your all. your secrets. You don't want them uh. running uh business with you. >> Yeah. >> Watch out. >> Mhm.

And why would you say that? Because. if I know somebody and they know all my. secrets, probably I trust them with. certain things, right? >> Maybe. Or maybe you hung around with. them in situations where they Yeah, exactly. >> [laughter]. >> Exactly. They they happened to observe. They've They've had They've gotten. access to a lot of data about you. >> Mhm. >> Uh they saw you in vulnerable situations. a lot and I I just think at the end of. the day what you really want to know. about people is you know not not do we. have the same personalities but are we.

aligned on core values? >> Yeah. Um alignment on core values is. very difficult to find out. >> It can be. I think one of the the. mistakes people make is they talk about. values in the abstract and I I I made. this mistake earlier right? I said I. value generosity, integrity, excellence, curiosity, humility, right? And. I think those are those are decent. shorthand for telling you here are the. planets that you know that that I would.

I would choose to live on if I were. going to highlight my top priorities in. a word each. But then we need to do the. extra work of breaking down what are the. behaviors that I believe are core to to. living a life of generosity. What are the key behaviors that violate. my standards of generosity? And that's. often where you and I might be. misaligned. So one person says for me. generosity is all about respecting. people's time. And that means if you're. late you are unkind and if you're early. you are caring.

And I look at that and say absolutely. not. Generosity is being understanding. that you know people have flexible. timelines and not judging them for that. For me about generosity the core of. generosity is are you willing to help. people with no strings attached? And do you spend a lot of your time. helping people who you expect to never. reciprocate? Are you a pay it forward. person as opposed to pay it back person? And if you and I don't have that. conversation we could both say we value. generosity and not actually be on the.

same page at all. >> Are you a pay it forward person? >> I aspire to be one but you'd have to ask. the people in my life whether I succeed. in living by those values. >> But do you think that you are that. person? I'm just asking. >> I I. I would like to believe yes. >> Is it even even I am like that. >> [laughter]. >> I would also like to believe that. because. I think it's a much better way of living. than pay it back. living. It's just a belief that I have. Maybe. I'm wrong. >> Well, I can I can back it up with. evidence. So, I will I will give you.

some data to support your belief. The. problem with a pay it back mentality, I. I I wrote about this in Give and Take, uh is. basically, if you are always um. operating on a you know, I'll do. something for you if you do something. for me basis of trading favors. When you. need help, you can only go to the people. that you've supported in the in the past. or you expect to be able to help in the. future. And that actually limits you to. a relatively narrow network. If you build a a whole web of.

relationships around the pay it forward. philosophy, when you need help, you can. go to anybody. You can reach out to a. dormant tie, a weak tie, a total. stranger who's part of your community or. who belongs to your network. because you know that everybody is. agreeing to pay it forward. And. sociologists have called that. generalized reciprocity. Direct. reciprocity is I'll do something for you. if you do something for me. Generalized. reciprocity is I'll do something for you. knowing that I am investing in you doing.

something for someone else and that's. going to create a an an ecosystem with. more generosity and that means everyone. can get more of the help that they need. >> Why are some people like that? Why are. some people like. they love to pay it forward and they. don't expect anything back from you. And. there are some people who will always. expect something back from you. >> Yeah, I think. why are people like that? That's a. that's an that's a really good. existential question. I don't know. I. think there's there's probably to our. earlier personality discussion, there's.

probably. >> nature. >> there there is a probably a biological. predisposition on that, but. I think there's a learned component in. that as well, which is. some people have learned that, you know, they've learned the hard way through. experience or you know, through some. very strong early role models that if. you don't look out for yourself and put. me first in a dog-eat-dog competitive. world, [clears throat] then you're going. to get exploited and taken advantage of. >> [gasps]. >> And other people have been taught, which. I think is a is a more successful way to.

live your life in the long run. It's. also a more rewarding way to live your. life in the long run. They have been taught that, you know, what? If you If you help other people. with no strings attached, every once in. a while somebody will take advantage of. you. But most of the time, you're making a. meaningful investment in a relationship. and you are also. encouraging other people to engage in. generous behavior and you're planting. that seed. And over time, if you operate that way, you can figure out how to help people. with no strings attached in ways that.

don't cost you too much. Um the. entrepreneur Adam Rifkin calls it a. five-minute favor. He says you should be willing to do a. five-minute favor for anyone. Uh it. might be a microloan of your time to. give somebody a little bit of feedback. or coaching or advice. It might be a. quick introduction between two people. who have agreed they could benefit from. knowing each other. And even just taking the time to write. somebody a thank you note for something. they did for you or for someone else to. say, "Hey, I noticed." That mattered.

Costs you very little. There's not a lot. that someone can do to hurt you. It may. be high benefit to them. And if you. spend a lot of time in those in those. five-minute favors, that's a way to test. is this person going to pay it back or. pay it forward? And if so, then you can. take a little bit more risk in the way. that you show up for them. >> True. And when you do this a lot, I. believe you end up converting a lot of. paid back people into paid forward as. well. >> Yes, I think that's exactly the hope. And I don't think that people shouldn't.

also have the instinct to pay it back, right? I think that if you have a. relationship where one person is always. taking and the other is always giving. That's actually not a relationship. That. is a charade. That is one person using. the other person. >> Yeah. >> But I think there are some relationships. that are naturally unbalanced. I think. that a mentor or mentee relationship, the mentor should be giving more than. the mentee is is giving. Uh but there. should be also some ways that the mentor. learns from the the mentee. >> Mhm. >> And I think that you know that.

ultimately we need people to we need. people to both be willing to help. unconditionally and also say I don't. want to have a relationship where I am. always the receiver and never the giver. >> You know when there's relationship, right? There's the relationship between. two people. Uh when there's. either in an office with the colleague, mentor, mentee, personal relationship, whatever, right? Do you believe that. healthy amount of disagreement and. fights.

actually gets them closer? >> Yeah, they can. Okay, so let's go to chapter six of. vibe. >> Okay. >> I covered a whole series of studies. showing that so this is the this is the. the tough love factor. >> So we come back. Like do you want to. explain it on the board or you you okay. with just whatever? Explain me. What do. you think? >> Well, we'll we'll find out if it's. helpful. Yeah, actually I will I will I. will explain it on the board. >> Perfect. >> So I think that most people basically. believe.

this. I think most people think. in order to have healthy conflict, to. give tough love, to have a difficult. conversation, uh to you know to have any kind of. confrontation, you need to build trust. and become close to someone first. And there is some truth to that. But what we overlook is that healthy. conflict can also enhance trust and. bring us closer together.

And I love there have been now a dozen. experiments that have shown that if you. were randomly assigned. to pick someone in your life, it could. be a friend, a family member, a. colleague, and tell them a truth that you might be. hesitant to to raise with them. Two weeks later, you both report that you are closer than. you were before. It is surprisingly easy to hear a hard. truth from someone who is is making that.

investment in trying to help you grow. And I think the mistake we make, the. reason we have so much unhealthy. conflict, is we wait until the issue. blows up, and then we attack and we put. the other person on the defensive. And what we should be doing instead is. recognizing. it's not actually the message that. causes most healthy conflict, excuse me. It's not actually the message that. causes harmful conflict. It's our. perceptions of the intentions and.

motives of the messenger. >> Were you trying to tell me that. there's some amount of conflict which is. making a relationship stronger, and then. there's some amount which makes it. toxic? >> It's not the amount, it's the type. >> It's the type. So, what type of fight is. making a relationship toxic, and what. type is making a relationship stronger? >> Okay, so the in the research it's called. task conflict versus relationship. conflict. >> Okay. >> Task conflict is you and I are. disagreeing about decisions, goals, vision, strategy if we work.

together. Um if we're if we're pals or. companions, we're disagreeing about what. restaurant to go to or what movie to. watch or where to go on vacation. together. And that's good because you and I might. have different opinions or different. preferences. We also might have. compatible preferences that neither of. us voiced. And if you say, "I don't want. to see a rom-com," and I say, "I don't. want to hear excuse me, and I say Let me. try that again. If you say, "I don't. want to see a rom-com," and I say, "I. don't want to see another superhero. movie. Then we would say, what Allison?

We just We discover we both love sci-fi. And so that's good, right? We want to. have that disagreement. That's a task. conflict. Where it becomes toxic is when. it's relationship conflict. Which is. Okay, you don't like rom-coms? Well, I. don't like you. And also you smell bad. Right? Where [laughter] it starts to get. personal, emotional, and it's not about. the issue. It's It's about. you versus me. I am judging you. I think. there's something wrong with you. >> Mhm. So.

>> Question is, how do you surface a. healthy conflict? >> Yeah. >> How do you give somebody tough love? My. favorite experiment on this, this is. David Yeager and his colleagues, shows. that you can say 19 words and. dramatically increase people's openness. to constructive criticism. >> Okay. What are those 19 words? >> 19 words. Don't count them. I might give. you 20 or or 18. >> Okay. >> But in their experiments, what they show. is if you just say roughly, I'm giving. you these comments cuz I have very high. expectations and and I'm confident you. can reach them.

That is enough to lead people to be much. more open. Because I am not attacking. you. I'm not judging you. I am actually. telling you something to to help you, right? I am here as your your ally. I am. here as your companion. And I'm trying. to support you. >> [snorts]. >> And I think so often we deliver that. message and we don't explain our motives. up front. And then other people put. their guard up and they they think it's. you versus me as opposed to you and me. trying to tackle a problem together. And you know, I think there are lots of.

versions of this. I have um I I found a. couple other versions really helpful. I. have I have found it really useful to to. preface feedback or advice by saying, "Hey, I noticed a couple of things that. I thought might be helpful for you. Do. you want to hear them?". >> Mhm. >> And even just opting in, right? Now it's. not an it's not a an onslaught. It's. actually a conversation. Another one that I really like is to say. um I think in in great relationships, we're always trying to make each other. better. I would love to know what you.

think I could do better, and then if. you're if you're interested, I'm happy. to come up with some things for you as. well. >> You know, it during the podcast usually. when I disagree with people and. I want to accomplish a really good. podcast for my viewers and so that. that's the exact motivation of the guest. as well. And I disagree with something. Earlier I used to just say, "Hey, I. don't agree with this.". >> Yep. >> Right? And that used to kill the. conversation. >> It shouldn't. >> Yeah, it it's if it's a highly secure.

guest, it'll kill the conversation. If. it's highly insecure guest, then it'll. make like just a fight. Like makes. >> Oh, that's interesting. >> Right? You know, and then I found out. that. just this tweak where I used to say this. that the moment you said this thing. here's what I started thinking. >> Yes, you're walking me through your. thought process not your conclusion. >> Exactly. And you know, I think like this. and this and this. What do you think. about that? So now I'm trying to opt. like I'm trying to buy you.

a different kind of perspective, and you. are giving your perspective. And. sometimes I've seen that often times. guest actually self-corrects them or. just say that, "Hey, I like this. perspective. I've not thought about it. Let me come back to you.". >> Yes. >> And that makes so much better than just. blatantly disagreeing. >> I I think that's exactly right. I think. so two things you just sparked for me. when you said that I I love the way you. articulated that is it's a it's a very. subtle shift, but it has profound. implications, which you've clearly. lived. I think the first thing is that.

we're looking for the wrong response. when we disagree with other people or. when we have conflict. We want people to. say, "You know what? I was wrong. You. were right.". >> Mhm. >> Or even to go the Happy Gilmore extra. step of. um you were right, I was wrong. Um. you're good-looking, I'm not attractive. >> But. the clearest signal that you've reached. somebody is not them saying you were. right. It's them saying I never thought of it. that way. >> Mhm.

>> And what what you're trying to do is not. change their mind, but expand their. perspective. In a healthy conflict Well, actually, yeah, in I think in a toxic. conflict, you're trying to to. Let me try that one more time. I think in a toxic conflict, you are. trying to dictate someone else's views. Yeah. In a healthy conflict, you're. trying to introduce someone else to a. new view and also get a better. understanding of their view. And I think your idea of saying, "Hey, here's what I was thinking when you said.

that.". It it actually maps perfectly onto. something I was trying to do when I went. through conflict mediation training. So, for a long time, I was a an extreme. people pleaser, highly agreeable. I was. afraid of conflict. And I I actually. went and trained as a conflict mediator. thinking if I could help other people. through their conflicts, one, that would. be helpful, and two, it would make me. more comfortable at embracing conflict. And one of the things I learned was. what's called the ladder of inference, which is this it's a it's a simple.

model. Here, let's let's draw it. >> Yeah. >> You have an eraser handy? Again. >> Let's go. >> All right, so let's let's take a simple. a very simple model here. >> Mhm. >> Um. we're going to go like this. So, you are in a team meeting. >> Okay. >> And you're Give me a name of somebody. you don't work with. >> I don't work with Adam. >> Okay, good. All right, we're going to. we're going to do this then. Okay, so. we've got Raj and Adam, okay?

So, this is a ladder of inference. Um. we are in a we're in a Zoom meeting. together. >> Okay. >> Okay? And I notice that you turn your. camera off. And that's a little data point that I'm. paying attention to. Okay? You're doing. other things. >> Mhm. >> Uh you had typed a message in the chat. You might be tapping your foot. There. there's a whole lot of other stuff going. on in the meeting, but I zoom in on that. data point. And then I make an assumption.

Which is Raj is not listening. >> Mhm. >> And I could have made different. assumptions, but for whatever reason. that's the place I go. And then I I. interpret that and eventually I get to a. conclusion, which is. not a team player. >> Mhm. >> And. there's I mean this is normal. This. happens in every interaction we have. with another person. >> True.

>> What I don't realize is you have your. own ladder. I'm not thinking about this. >> Mhm. >> You have just been zoom-bombed by a. toddler who ran into the room. Okay? >> Yeah. >> And. your assumption is that that was. thoughtful. >> Mhm. >> Because you didn't want to distract. everyone, right? >> Yeah. >> And then your conclusion is that you are. being actively helpful. Maybe even. proactively helpful. >> Mhm. >> Right? >> Yeah.

>> Now, we stop there. This is okay. This. is just part of being human. I have my. own ladder of inference in my head. You. have a different one. This is what makes. interactions messy, complicated, but. also sometimes really interesting. The. problem is I confront you. And I only argue with you about the. conclusion. I come to you and I say, "Raj, I am so sick and tired of you not. being a team player." And you're like, "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I'M A GREAT. TEAM PLAYER." And there's just there's. there's no common ground there.

What I should do is walk down the. ladder. And say, "You know what? Hey Raj, I. noticed in the meeting you turned your. camera off. Just curious, what was behind that? >> Yeah. >> And then you can say, "Oh, actually. >> [laughter]. >> yeah, I got interrupted. And you know, please tell me if you think there's a. better way to handle that in the. future." And I could say, "Oh, no. problem. I think you made the right. call." And so I think that this this. ladder is all about recognizing that we. are constantly. like climbing up the ladder without. realizing it. And we make the mistake of.

confronting people with our conclusions. instead of walking them through our data. and then letting them correct our. assumptions by sharing their data. And. that means you have to be willing to be. wrong. You have to know. your interpretations were complete. When. I did this, I probably have a whole. history of being annoyed that other. people turn their cameras off and they. weren't paying attention. Or you and I. got off on the wrong foot. And I look at. this and I'm like, "You know what? That. is so Raj. Exactly the kind of thing Raj.

would do to check out of our team. meeting." Right? And then if we don't if. we don't have this data exchange, I am. constantly then in confirmation bias. I've concluded you're not a team player. I'm now looking at everything you do. through that negative lens and it's just. reinforcing my pre-existing convictions. that you are not a good collaborator or. ally. >> True. But how do you know that this. person was not lying and making this. up? >> You don't. You don't. And that's where I. would say you ask them to share the.

data. You align on how to handle that. situation in the future. And if they go. camera off again, uh you you basically give them the. benefit of the doubt. If they start. doing it regularly, then you could say, "You seem to be getting a lot of. interruptions. And I you know, I'd love. to talk about that because I want to. make sure that that's not interfering. with your ability to be a good teammate, which is I know I know that's something. that you care about, too. So let's talk. about how we align on what being a good. teammate looks like." And I've got to. hold that person accountable, right.

then, for following through on what my. expectations are. >> How many chances or how many benefit of. doubts are enough? >> Oh, I wish I had a precise scientific. answer to that question. I don't. I think. >> [sighs and gasps]. >> Well, there's actually there's game. theory research on this. Uh on what's called generous. tit-for-tat. >> Okay. >> So, you know in tit-for-tat, if somebody. cooperates, you cooperate. If they. defect, you're supposed to punish them. In generous tit-for-tat, you forgive.

them one out of three times. And in repeated games where people have. an ongoing relationship or a visible. reputation, that actually outperforms. the the tit-for-tat approach. So, I. think that you know, I'm I'm fine giving. people the benefit of the doubt the. first time. I will not though if they. then cross me a second or a third time. I will not continue assuming good. intent. At that point, as as Sheila. Heen, who's a great conflict expert, taught me, I will say, I am no longer.

going to assume good intent. I'm going. to realize I don't know their intent. And I need to be a lot more cautious. with them. And I might not believe their. explanations of their motives. I might. give them more of a chance to prove. through their behavior that they have. hurt me. I think there's a there's a. great saying that the best apology is. changed behavior. And if somebody repeatedly claims that. they're going to make a change and they. don't follow through with their actions, I do not consider them trustworthy.

>> But repeatedly, you give them just one. chance and then second time it's off. because of game theory you just you just. >> I think it's one out of every three. And. so, you would want to I think in. >> times someone does someone something. nice, one time they up, it's okay. And then. >> The second time they're on notice. That's a warning. And I want to make. sure I've been. you know, it's it's kind of What's the. saying? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool. me twice, shame on me. If if they if they violate my values a.

second time, the only thing I'm going to do at that. point is make sure there is no ambiguity. about what my expectations and goals. were. And [snorts]. I'm also going to try to do everything I. can to align their incentives. with what I care about. And if they fail. the third time, I am not wasting my. energy on them anymore. >> Interesting. Let's say. to to [snorts] sum this up, the fight. question that I asked you, what would be one rule or the first rule.

that people should keep in mind when. they're fighting with each other so that. the fight gets them closer? >> I think the first rule the first rule of. a good fight is you are not a mind. reader. You cannot know what is in. somebody else's head. You don't know. other people's values, motives, intentions. They don't always have. perfect access to what's going on in. their head. And so I've actually started. saying to people, and this is a great. way to Sorry, let me try that again.

I I've had a lot of fun with this. I. think it's a great way to lighten the. mood a little bit and go into pal mode. during a conflict. I'll say something. like, "Hey Raj, I know I can't read your. mind. Would you be willing to read it to. me?". And that that's me both, I hope, showing. a little bit of humility, right? Thinking, "I don't know everything. that's relevant to resolving this. issue.". It's me showing curiosity, inviting you. to educate me, enlighten me about what's. going on in your head. Um you know, I. was genuinely surprised by this thing.

that happened, and I realized I have no. idea what, you know, what drove it for. you. And rather than make assumptions, whether those are fair or unfair to you, I just would like to I would like to. understand you better so that we can get. along better, we can be closer, we don't. misunderstand each other. Walk me down. your ladder. >> Interesting. I love this question. I I I. love this way of actually dealing with. like I can't read your mind. Can you. tell me what's on your mind? It's a very. good thing. >> Try it at your own risk. Let me know how. it goes. [laughter].

>> No, but [gasps] I. I can instantly think of like. so many different situations where I can. use this. whether it's. it's with your romantic partner, a. colleague, an investor, or like so many different. people you can just do it. The moment. you see them not only in fights, but the. moment you see them. checking out of the conversation. You. can probably use this to bring them back. in the conversation that hey, I I can. sense that you've checked out and I. can't see what's on your mind. Can you. tell me what's going on in your mind? >> Yeah, I think I think it's a great way.

to at least get people to share. something about what they're thinking. with you. It may not be the whole truth. It may not be. the the fully accurate picture, but it. might be information that helps you. >> Do you know in the beginning when we. were talking about vibe, there was one. question I just you know pointed out and. I forgot to ask you was I think you also. touched about loneliness and we just. shut that conversation but we didn't go. deeper on that, right? >> Mhm. >> You. a lot of young people have this problem.

that they don't have friends or they. can't make friends. >> Yeah. >> So, if someone's moving to a new city. and they want to instantly go build. genuine connections and not wait for. like. 10 months or 2 years to build a genuine. connection, what should they do? >> All right, there there are great. experiments on this in the UK. where people are randomly assigned to go. through a 6-hour exercise and 2 years. later they are significantly less. lonely, less depressed, and they have a. stronger sense of connection and social.

belonging. >> What is it? >> What do they do for 6 hours? >> Yeah. >> They were asked to map the existing. groups in their life and figure out. which ones they wanted to prioritize and. also to identify some new groups to. join. That's it. Become part of a group and it didn't. matter much what kind of group it was. It could be you joined a church or a. mosque or a synagogue. It could be you. joined a basketball league or a cricket.

league. It could be you signed up for a. painting class. It could be you. volunteered for a charity. When people. come together. in a group, what's great is you have. built-in pals because you picked. something that you have an interest in. and you also have immediate allies. because the group has a goal that. they're trying to accomplish together. And I think that we've, you know, it's. been a quarter century since Robert. Putnam published Bowling Alone. and documented the fact that. people in people had stopped bowling in.

leagues and, you know, American. community was getting more and more. fragmented. We've seen that happen. in many many countries throughout the. world now, not always with bowling, but. I think we we see a lot of people who. are struggling to make friends. We see. people spending more and more time. alone. I think that I think that the. best antidote to, you know, to feeling. isolated is not just to get to know one. person at a time. because there's research on this which I.

found fascinating. It turns out if your. friends don't know each other, you. actually feel less supported than if. your friends do know each other. And I. think this has been a a fairly global. shift that our networks used to look. like very densely woven spider webs. where kind of, you know, everybody who. was friends knew each other. >> Yeah. >> And now if you ask people to map their. networks, they look much more like a. bicycle wheel where you're a hub and you. have these spokes that are not directly. connected only through you. And the.

reason that's problematic is one, you. can't do anything at the group level. So. you miss out on collective effervescence. which is that great experience of, you. You a group activity where you feel like. you're part of a community or a team as. opposed to you just have a one-on-one. bond. But also, if if you're going through a. hard time, nobody [clears throat] knows to tell. everybody else because your friends are. strangers to each other. Whereas if you're part of a group and. one person finds out that you broke your. leg or you're going through financial.

strain, right? The group can rally to. support you. >> Interesting. That This is so true. I. I started thinking of 20 scenarios in my. head the moment you said web versus. bicycle. And it is so true. I'm the. I'm the connector. And my group is not connected. They have. no clue and that's why I find I struggle. to do group level things. >> Well, I think now is the perfect moment. Raj to introduce your friends to each. other. >> Mhm. >> and start forming a group.

You know, when my when my oldest left. for college, she she felt like No, [snorts] sorry. I don't want to I don't. want to That'll be too long of an. explanation. Let me try it this way. Um I think a lot of people believe the. key to making friends is to have a bunch. of one-on-one interactions. And it is it is easier to bond with. people one-on-one, but finding your. place is much more about joining a group. than meeting one person. >> True. Go for the longer one. The longest. >> Oh, the longer one. So, um. we One of my daughters um I had a.

conversation with my daughter about uh. how hard it is to change I. actually I have a short I have a shorter. version of the story. Let's try this. So, my daughter changed schools uh as a. teenager. >> Okay. >> And we had a lot of conversations about. how hard it is to break into a friend. group that's been together already for. years. >> True. >> And she she felt like she couldn't find. her group. And then she went to college and. realized she could form her group.

And it was such a lightbulb moment. And. I do think that this is one of the keys. to isolation. This is one of the ways to. to fight loneliness. It's to say, if you. cannot find your group, then it's time. to form your group. And all you need to. do is find a few people that you share a. hobby with or you share a mission with. and invite them to [clears throat] show. up together and and see how it goes. >> See, this is basic information, right? People know this already. Still, people.

don't do it. Why do you think people are. getting lonelier and lonelier? They've. started eating alone, they started doing. activities alone, they started going for. even the sports alone and they just come. back alone. They're not friends with. people. Why is it happening? >> I think it it starts to feel risky. Because you used to have to interact. with other people to to to have a meal. >> Yeah. >> You used to have to connect with people. to play a game. And now like we have. readily available, like we can, you.

know, we can get the ingredients we need. or you know, we can order from our. favorite delivery service. Um we can play video games alone. And so. we're not as dependent on other people. to to do our pal and and ally activities. as we used to be. I think, you know, it's. it's basically. I think that's part of the problem. I. think the other part of the problem is. you feel like you're taking a risk. You. might get rejected. If you ask someone. else to do something and they say no or.

it doesn't go well. But I think every. rejection is a learning opportunity. I. think that every time you don't vibe, it's a chance to figure out, well, how. can I have a better connection next. time? And I think we should take a much. longer view and. uh and imagine if you don't ever put. yourself out there, how many. relationships are you going to miss out. on? It's just a sad way to live your. life, I think. >> But do you think that it's also because. a lot of people have gotten polarized?

So you feel like. >> Yeah. >> I don't agree with your views, you don't. agree with mine, and that's why. it's like it's not worth having a. conversation with or building friendship. with. >> I I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, there there was a study that came out a. few years ago showing that people would. rather interact with a stranger who. shares their political ideology than a. friend who doesn't. That That is a problem. Right? When we think that our. interactions are going to be defined by.

one set of views and a very limited. portrait of a person, like we are we are. failing to I think to build solidarity. and to build community, which by. definition is people coming together. across differences. >> Let's say, do you think that two people. who disagree on something very central. like politics, religion, can they form a genuine close bond? >> Yeah, of course. Of course. I mean, there there are tons of examples of this. in Vibe. Uh you know, we talked about C.S. Lewis. and J.R.R. Tolkien earlier. Uh one, when.

they met, Lewis was an atheist, and. Tolkien was a devout Christian. And at first, they they just overcame. that difference by talking about. mythology. >> Mhm. >> And over time, Tolkien [clears throat]. actually convinced Lewis to adopt. Christianity. And they they ended up. changing each other in various ways. Um I think that. if you reduce somebody to one belief or. one attitude, you're going to find a. very strong reason not to interact with.

them. >> Mhm. >> If you see people in three dimensions, if you look at humans as more of a. kaleidoscope, you're going to find lots. of reasons to interact with them. >> True. You know, you During a conversation, you've brought this multiple times that. you were an introvert. >> Still am. >> You still are. >> I've become less shy, but I'm still an. introvert, for sure. >> So, you were a shy introvert, but you're much better right now. I. don't see that. You have a lot of people. to interact with. You have this career. where you are always on the stage and.

limelight and like all of these things. you do, right? Tell me, how can an introvert become a socially. magnetic person? >> Well, >> you've done this for yourself. >> Yeah, I So, I mean, I don't know. Socially magnetic is a high bar. I've. certainly become less bad at connecting. and communicating than I used to be. And. I think that for me, this you know, this. goes right back to if-then, which is. I I thought I was going to have to. change my personality. And then I had an.

extraordinary professor, Brian Little, who was the most captivating lecturer. I've ever seen. >> Mhm. >> And he confided to us that he's an. introvert. And I thought, okay, if Brian can learn. to give these. spellbinding lectures, anybody could, you know, could learn. [clears throat] to come out of their. shell a little bit more. And I started paying attention to my. if-thens. When am I naturally animated? When am I. comfortable reaching out to people? And. guess what? It was almost always telling. people about psychology research. I I.

just like naturally I I loved the ideas. so much and I wanted to share them and I. thought they were helpful for, you know, achieving success and boosting. happiness. I a different version of me. showed up when I was learning about a. new study or I was reading a. meta-analysis, nerd alert, a study of. studies. I was like, I can't wait to. tell you about this, you know, this. empirical synthesis of all of the. studies that have been done to date on. this topic. And I realized that if I. select myself into situations where I. get to talk about this thing that I.

love, it's not an act, right? This is This is. me. You are seeing me expressing my. values as opposed to my personality. >> Mhm. >> If you have to boil it down to the. simple. playbook or like rules to follow for an. introvert, what you have done, how would you describe that? Like, give. me three rules. how an introvert can actually become an. extrovert. >> So, I would say don't become an. extrovert. I would say don't try to. change your personality, adapt your. behavior.

>> Okay. >> And what that means is you're looking. for specific situations where you feel. that your introverted tendencies are a. barrier to achieving your goals or. expressing your values. And so, let's. take let's take some examples. Those. might be public speaking. >> Mhm. >> Especially if you're shy and anxious, harder to do as an introvert than an. extrovert. >> Yeah. >> That might be meeting new people. Um introverts are are actually really. great at strengthening bonds, but often. initiating them is something they. hesitate around. Okay, so I've.

identified some specific situations. I. don't have to be an extrovert in every. walk of life. That's the first step. Find the moments where you want to be. more energetic and more assertive and. more outgoing. Second step is identify your triggers. What are the cues that bring that out in. you? So, for me it was sharing ideas. about psychology. For somebody else, it. might be any bit of knowledge that they. love to share. It might be um a setting. in which they feel more confident. And. so, if you are an avid surfer or water.

skier, go meet people on the beach, right? And that will be then, okay, people are naturally going to going to. gravitate toward you. They're going to. approach you. You feel like you have. something to offer there. And then, I think the third thing is to. know your limits. I think. if you put yourself in that situation. too too long, what the data tell us is. that is a recipe for burnout. And so, you need a you need a container to say, "Okay, I will give a certain number of. speeches or I will meet a certain number. of new people." And in fact, I think.

that's a great place to start is to say, "Let's put all these pieces together. You've identified the behavior you want. to adapt, the situation you want to. become more assertive, energetic, or. outgoing in, and exactly how much of. that you can handle." And then you set a. goal and you say, "I'm going to. introduce myself to one new person a. week. Or I'm going to give three talks per. month. And that's a very achievable goal. And. now I'm not stressed about all the other. times when I'm not hopping on stage or. I'm not reaching out to somebody because.

I've set myself a container. I've. created a a manageable stretch goal for. myself. >> See, you know, what I also believe is. >> [snorts]. >> I read this a while ago. It's called. likeness gap. >> Yeah, this is Erica Boothby's research. Yes. Yes, we underestimate how much. other people like us. >> Exactly. Like a lot of people who think. that they're introverts, they feel like. they don't have anything exciting and. their life is very boring and they don't. have this thing that where they can keep. a conversation and other people are.

going to find them bad. So, they don't. even initiate it. >> Yeah. >> That other people not going to like. them. And on an average, people like us. way more than we think about. >> That is empirically true and I I would. add two things to it. The first one is. that. even boring conversations are more. interesting than we expect. There's a. brand new paper on this. It turns out. that not knowing what the other person. is going to say and also thinking of. things that we want to say is enough to. keep us engaged. If you want to have. better conversations, keep your turns.

short. More rapid back and forth is. actually associated with a better vibe. because we end up then creating a. dynamic that's called burstiness where. the the conversation is literally. bursting with energy and ideas and we're. building on each other and we're riffing. off of each other and if you talk too. long, it becomes a monologue as opposed. to a meaningful exchange, which is I. think the great danger of being a good. interviewer. >> [laughter]. >> As a podcast host, right? You ask a. meaty question and I might have 5. minutes of thoughts worth sharing with. you. That would not be a good model for.

a conversation. I think optimal turn. turn length is probably no more than 1. to 2 minutes. And sometimes we want to. be going back and forth every 10, 20, 30. seconds. That's one thing. The other thing I'll. say on this, ironically, cuz you did. make me think of another thing, is add. the the liking gap or the liking gap, add to the liking gap the spotlight. effect, which is the long-standing. phenomenon where people assume that. others are paying more attention to them. than they actually are. You go into an interaction, you feel.

like, "Oh, no, I was an awkward turtle. I really messed that up." And the other. person was they didn't even notice. They. were thinking about the mistake that. they made. And we just we we kind of. live our lives thinking that we're in a. spotlight, when in fact most of the time. we are in the audience, and the other. person is in their own spotlight. And I. think that just makes it way easier to. accept all of the just the stumbles we. have in our interactions with other. people. >> Yeah, that I used to believe in this one. thing, but not I mean, that helped me. I.

don't know if I still believe it or not, but it's a good way to start. conversations. I used to be very awkward. in. when I used to go to. these large conferences and networking. events, right? I used to be very. insecure about myself that oh, did I do. well? Did I look well? Did I talk to the. right person? Like, do they think that. I'm valuable? So etc. And the mindset. shift which helped me become much better. is. everybody's insecure about themselves. >> Yes. >> And the way to form better connection is. can I.

make somebody less insecure about. themselves instead of thinking about my. own insecurity because. the back of the head almost everybody's. insecure. So, can I help them become. little secure? And that's the way to. build connections, and it helped me so. much that I was just looking for an. opportunity to. make people feel better, >> [clears throat]. >> make people feel better about. themselves. And it just helped me build. connections after that. >> That's such a great insight. That I. mean, that's what you would expect to. give or rather than a take her to do in. an interaction is to start by by.

offering, how can I make the other. person feel secure? You know, it's it's funny. I've watched. my wife Allison do this so beautifully. She'll She's She's also She's much more. introverted and even shyer than I am. And despite that, I think because she's highly socially. skilled and she's also kind, we'll we'll. show up at a dinner party or some kind. of gathering and she'll she'll walk up. to a total stranger and say, "I love. your shoes.". And I think she's just she's you know,

she's not look she's not out looking for. something to praise. But, when she. notices something that she likes, she's. she's very generous with compliments. >> Nice. >> And I think that's one of the easiest. ways to vibe with people is. anytime you notice something that you. could praise about someone else, don't. bite your tongue. Share it. People love. to be told something good about. themselves and we are constantly. admiring other people's strengths, sometimes envying their skills and their.

accomplishments. Why not just put that. on the table more often? >> True. So, let's say. if we have to summarize everything, >> Yeah. >> all the things that we've talked about. how to vibe with people, give me your. top three rules. >> Top three principles for vibing with. other people. Number one, pick your wavelength. Decide. if you want to be allies on a mission. together, pals having fun together, or. companions confiding in each other. Number two, lead with a little bit of. vulnerability.

>> Mhm. >> Say, like if if you walk up to somebody. that you've just uh that you've only met. once or twice before and say, "You know, something that I really appreciate and. admire about you is. Uh actually, I guess that's the. compliment approach we just talked. about. So, I'll I'll give you that as. number two. Number two, be generous with. compliments. When you appreciate. somebody, let them know. The research on. this shows that you might feel awkward. saying thank you, but they actually just. feel gratified. It makes them feel that.

they matter. >> Mhm. >> And then number three, if you want to if. you want to build a stronger vibe with. other people, uh let them know. If you want to build a stronger vibe. with other people, don't be afraid to. argue and fight about little things. because that's how you practice for the. bigger ones. But, it's also how you. learn to accept that we don't have to. agree on everything to be aligned on. important things. >> True. What is the one advice nobody.

should follow? >> Nobody should follow? I think. oh, there there's so many. I think. I think one piece of advice no one. should follow is follow your passion. Because what you're passionate about. today might be boring to you tomorrow. And also, it doesn't take into account. what you're good at and what makes the. world better. And so, you could listen. to your passion, but I would say follow.

your talent, find your purpose, and then. develop your passion. >> Nice. I really like it. >> [laughter]. >> I like it. You I used to have a version. of this, but you just made it much more. better. >> What was yours? >> stealing this. >> [laughter]. >> No, I used to believe in the same thing. like don't follow your passion actually. But, mine was only that. in the beginning find something which. can pay your bills. And once you reach a. comfortable position, then start. thinking about passion things. Right?

Don't be On day one when you are broke, don't think about following your. passion. >> [laughter]. >> I think that's fair. It needs to be. practical. >> Yeah, like just just make the ends meet. and then start thinking about all these. things. But, your version is even. better. >> I don't think it's better. >> No, I I like. >> it's complimentary. >> Yeah, I I like this. Okay. I asked this. question to almost everybody. What. personal cost did you pay to become Adam. Grant? >> A lot of discomfort. putting myself in situations that I did.

not succeed in. Uh, you know, crashing and burning as a. public speaker, getting lots of critical feedback from. students and from audiences, um, literally crashing as a springboard. diver. >> [laughter]. >> when I when I was not I wasn't flexible. and I couldn't jump high and I didn't. have good body control. Uh, that was. That was hard. Um, you know, seeking a. lot of interaction where I felt like I.

failed to connect and I still stumble in. lots of interactions. I think I I vibe. with more of the people more of the time. now than I did before, but it's always a. work in in progress and I'm always. learning something and I think that's. part of the joy and excitement of every. interaction is saying, "Okay, if. something goes wrong, worst case. scenario, it'll be material. It'll be a. story I can share in the future or it'll. be something I can learn to get better.". I think the the other. to be really. really candid on this, I think the other sacrifice I made to to. get where I am is I under-invested in.

friendships for a long time. I remember when Give and Take came out. in 2013, my first book, somebody asked. me, "How do you prioritize who you spend. time with?" And I said, "Family first, students second, colleagues third, everyone else fourth.". And I was I was kind of locked in to. being like a good ally and companion and. hopefully pal to my family. And then basically an ally to my. students and to my colleagues. And I.

completely forgot about a category of. people who really matter in my life and. the idea of being a good friend and. I think that I I spent too little time. checking in on my friends and trying to. be supportive of them, but also just. hanging out with them. It's good to have. pals in your life. And I think I didn't need to make that. sacrifice. I think I could have. I could have been a little bit more. selective in what I said yes to and made. more time for my friends and not only am. I am I working hard to correct that now,

but I wrote a whole book about Vibe. knowing that if I went and talked to. other people about it, it was going to. it was going to motivate me and hold me. accountable around prioritizing this, but I've also in the past few years. I started creating more groups. Um I now. host a gathering where I bring. interesting people that I've met from. different walks of life together and I. get so much joy out of building that. community and helping people connect. with others that they can vibe with and. I think that is a contribution that I.

really overlooked is I I don't have to. just join a community and then try to. maximize my contribution to it. I can. actually build a community and help. everyone elevate their contributions to. it. >> Interesting. Nice. This is such a common. cost that a lot of ambitious people have. talked about. >> I'm sad to hear it, but I'm hoping to. help change it. >> Well, I hope that too. And I'm stealing. this one more thing from you of actually. going to a city and building.

like throwing a dinner with all the. interesting people I know so that I can. convert my bicycle into a web. >> There you go. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, and then you'll get caught in the. web. >> But that'll be interesting. Thank you so. much. It was. pleasure talking to you. >> Thank you, Raj. Pleasure was all mine. I. really appreciate all the questions. you've asked and just how much you've. thought about the things I've spent my. whole career studying and. I think you you're doing an amazing job. taking complex ideas and making them. digestible and also widely accessible.

and like yeah, that's my mission. So. thank you for being a great ally. >> Thank you. Thank you so much. Is there a. feedback for me? >> I think uh this is so hard. I think I I. always have feedback cuz I think you're. doing a disservice to people you spend. time with if you don't give them a. comment. I think. it's interesting to me that you respond. to a lot with but. and you don't always disagree when you. say but. And when I hear you say but, I. think, "Oh, this is going to be a debate. or a dance or you know, some kind of.

disagreement." But then you're actually. like you're adding a layer of nuance or. you're taking the topic in a new. direction. And I might say if you reserve the but. for when you really want a challenge, you'll get a little bit less. defensiveness from people who are. insecure. >> Oh. Wow, I didn't even notice it. Thank you. So, instead of using but. uh and making the conversation deeper, you're you're saying that maybe I use. and or some other word. >> I I think there's I mean there's.

probably a whole repertoire of options. I think you could say interesting or. intriguing or huh. Uh and I I think if you just if you. diversify the initial response, right? You're sending a signal. This is one of. the things I've I've become much more. attuned to as I've studied vibing. That. first bit of communication, that but, tells me, "Okay, there's something. oppositional or something contrarian. coming." And actually like I which I'm. excited about and I love I love having. debates and I think we we disagreed. productively on on several things today. Um but I yeah, I think I think it's you.

know, it's one of many tools in your. toolkit and I think it it has greater. effect if you use it when you are going. to diverge. >> Wow, thank you. >> What about for me? >> Thank you. This is so good. >> This By the way, you just delivered a. masterclass in how to receive feedback. Just saying thank you and smiling and. taking notes. Tell me what I can do. better. >> If you have first thought. about telling a long story, go ahead and. tell it. >> Oh, you don't think I should. self-censor?

>> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Like I I saw you doing that and I'm just. being critical. >> Yeah, you should. >> It's like I could see that there is a. longer version in your head, but you're. like, "Oh, maybe just make it more. digestible for audience." And you cut it. short and you give it a shorter version. >> I can definitely do that. I I definitely. bit my tongue four or five times. Like, "Well, I don't want to like I don't want. to take all this time on the one story. when there's probably lots of other. interesting ground to cover.". Okay, I will I will work on that. Thank. you for sharing. >> Thank you. I love this. Thank you so. much.

>> I had a blast. Thank you for having me, Raj. >> Pleasure having you. How are you? >> Yeah, how are you? >> Good to see you, Adam. >> Thank you for hosting. Ian Bremmer said. this is the best podcast experience he's. ever had. >> No way. >> And I told him I found that offensive. >> [laughter]. >> He's been on my show, but he said you. were amazing. >> Wow, this is so Thank you. Like, thanks. to him. This. I think he was just hyping it up for me. >> No, he doesn't he doesn't do that. >> He doesn't do that? >> Nope. >> So, you're like really close friends. with him? >> He's a He's a very good friend and he is. very critical of a lot of.

>> [laughter]. >> a lot of things, as you probably. noticed. >> Wow, I'm really happy. I've been a big. fan of your work. >> Honored. I will try not to make you. regret or rethink that, but you never. know. >> You'll be fascinated to know that. A, I'm very nervous. And B, because. you were the you were probably the only. reason. because of whom I wanted to actually go. to an Ivy League school and study. >> Really? >> Yeah. >> Oh, wow. >> I couldn't, but I really wanted. I was.

looking forward to you like maybe attend. one of your classes because I used to. follow you a lot. >> It's never too late. >> Yeah. >> You can do an MBA in the future. Just. for. >> now I get to spend time with you like. this. >> That's right. You bring You bring You. bring the teachers to you, right? >> Thank you for watching this episode till. the end. We would love to know what you. liked or disliked about this episode and. which guest you would like to see on the. show. Let us know in the comments. Your. feedback help us improve and make every. episode a little better. I'll see you.

next time. Until then, keep figuring. out.