How To Break Anyone & Make Them Reveal Their Secrets | Evy Poumpouras | FO563 Raj Shamani

You are responsible to be in a group to. protect the most powerful person in the. world, the president of United States. [music]. >> How do you design this? >> You have circles of security around that. person layer upon layer. And the idea. [music] is each of these circles are. supposed to stop or intercept a threat. at some point. The people in the closest. in the center of the circle, they. [music] call that shift. Shift is like. you're literally the bodyguard. It's the. last line of defense. It should never. come to that. My name is Evie Pompures. A former.

Secret Service special agent, protected. several US presidents during her career. and later became an NBC law enforcement. analyst, author, and expert in. interrogation and reading people. >> There's teams on the ground that are. dressed like everybody else and they're. just in the crowd. Also, like another. thing that was a concern were ambushes. I'm driving and somebody puts an IED on. the road. Boom. Right? What do I do? So, you always want to stay in motion. You've got the vehicles which are highly. tactical vehicles, ballistic vehicles.

>> How do you do that on a foreign land? Imagine a US president has to go give a. speech in India or China. >> It's a gamble because you have to trust. that other foreign country. >> How the process goes. >> If I'm going to India, which is a big. country, listen, he's going to Mumbai. I'm going to send. an agent and people out there probably a. month in advance to work with the Mumbai. police with the military in India. I'm. going to work with them. United States. we train very differently. So there's. some countries where you're like nice. country but they're not capable of.

protecting. Look at any picture of any. president of the United States going. anywhere in the world. They are always. in their cars. We fly the cars over. If. you would have gotten in the room with. few people in the world, how would you. have interrogated them to extract. certain information out of them? One is. Jeffrey [music] Abstein. >> So you're looking at someone very. wealthy, knows everybody. I mean this. guy knew presidents. You would need days. with him. [music] The first few days I. would talk about anything but the case.

Tell me about yourself. How'd you grow. up? How you feeling, Jeffrey? Can I get. you food? I just want this guy talking. Is this [music] because I don't need the. confession from Epstein because I. actually have enough to convict him. But. what I want [music] from him, who he. played with, who was on his island, how. did he get the girls, what did he do? I. want to know how he ran the business. >> Who else is involved? >> Yes. I want to know how big this thing. goes. That's [music] what I would want. to know. >> This one's close to you. How would you. interrogate him? >> Osama bin Laden. >> How do you even become a Secret Service.

agent? What's the most brutal part of. the training? I think the. >> you've been a spy. You've been somebody. who has lied to people. How to become a. good liar. >> I remember once I pretended to be. somebody who was being sex trafficked. and I had to pretend to be from another. country. >> Tell me about the story. >> Well, I have a small favor to ask you. I need.

you to subscribe to our channel. The. more subscribers we have, the better and. bigger guests we can bring and provide. you more value through these. conversations. And the full audio. experience of this show is also. available on Spotify where you can. follow us and listen to the new episodes. as well. Now, let's get into the. episode. If someone's watching you for the first. time, okay, and. they have no clue about what you do,

what you've done. So, why don't you tell. us what have you done, what do you do, and why they should watch our. conversation for the next couple of. hours. >> So, I my name is Evie Pompures. I. started off in law enforcement uh in a. career when I was very young. I actually. started in the NYPD, which is New York. City Police Department. uh uh did very. brief time there and then transitioned. to the United States Secret Service um. as a special agent and criminal.

investigator. And that agency, which. some people don't know, is what's called. a dual mission agency. They work. investigations. So you work criminal. cases and you also work protection. So. you protect the president of the United. States, former presidents because they. get protection for life, families and. then foreign heads of state. So if. somebody you know a head of state from. India is coming to the US or any other. country visit visits the United States, they get protection because you do not.

want anybody getting assassinated on US. soil. It's bad business. >> Yeah. >> Um so you you have these two things. So. you work criminal cases. So in one week. I could do a search warrant or an arrest. warrant or an undercover assignment and. at the same breath have a protection. assignment or be sent overseas. somewhere. Um and then within that scope. in the agency I did polygraph exams. actually. Do you do they have those in. India? Do they give them? They do them. Um, so I did I was a polygraph examiner.

here in the US and here in the US you. use polygraphs for either criminal cases. or or you can use them well they use. them for hiring. If you wanted to be an. agent in certain government positions. you have to take one and pass one. >> Why? >> Well, why? Because a lot of people lie. Um, so so there's a couple of things. One is if you're going to be a US Secret. Service special agent, it's a very. sensitive position. you're you have. access to classified information uh.

certain information. You're also in the. White House. You're given a gun and. you're standing next to some of the most. powerful people in the world. So, you. have to make sure that that person is. one not interested in infiltrating the. organization, right? So, that's the. first thing. Terrorism, somebody. infiltrating a spy, that's one. The. other thing is character. For a job like. that, you're investigating crimes. who have. access to sensitive information. Again, sensitive people, they need to make sure.

that you're of strong integrity and. character. So, if I grew up and I spent. my my youth even, you know, or or my. early 20s like committing crimes and. maybe I never got caught, right? Cuz. sometimes people would say you would ask. them, "Have you ever committed a crime?". And they would say, "Oh, I was never. arrested." That's not what I asked you. So you want to make sure that when you. put people in position of this kind of. power that they should be given that. power and so I think I was reading the.

data even in regular uh resumes when 75%. of people lie or embellish their resumes. so how can you verify that info and so. because again of the nature of that job. you give polygraphs and I will tell you. Raj because I used to uh I've taken them. and then I began to be the one who was. trained to give them I can't tell you. how many times even in people who just. wanted the job that we would find things. an applicant uh interview would. sometimes turn into a criminal. interview. >> Give me an example.

>> I we I had one scenario where the person. applying for the job actually had, you. know, and and I I I want to try to say. this delicately, but had video footage. of children and pornography on their. computer. um. >> and he was applying for. >> he was applying for a position. >> So something like that would not have. come up. >> had it not been for the polygraph. >> But how do you navigate and find out. this stuff like what do you ask so that.

they. >> a lot of questions you when you do with. these jobs like with a job like this and. it's the same for FBI, DEA, a lot of. these organizations, CIA, it's a. multi-step process. So there's different. phases and they give you the first phase. which sometimes is just send your resume. or fill in this form then fill another. form then another form and then come. speak to this person then do a panel. interview where you speak to multiple. agents they ask you many questions they.

put you in really tough scenarios they. want to hear how you respond uh a. polygraph written exams so there's a lot. of phases so each phase. is is meant to filter out people. >> m. >> right and so it it can take up to a. year. I I'm a I think for positions like. this and even a lot of companies. you know it's good for organizations to. really slow down and think about who. they bring in because once you bring a.

problem in it's a problem. It's very. hard to then offload that person and a a. disruptive person or a person that. doesn't fit in your culture can just. crush the whole system. even like. something like this, right? One person. can really just. >> Yeah. >> collapse the whole system and now you. struggle working. It affects other. people. Um and then compound that with. sensitive information and guns and. weapons and the people you're. protecting. It's really really important. that you have people of the the highest.

integrity when they come in because once. they're in, you know, people have to. move and do things. You know, you're. also out there making arrests. So you. can't you yourself can't be committing. crimes or have committed crimes and now. you're out there enforcing the law. >> True. What how do you by the way how do. you even become a secret service agent? >> When you say how tell me specifically. what part you're curious about. >> I'm curious about h like what is this. position first? Is it out there open for.

everyone to just go apply and become a. secret service? >> You can apply. You go to the website. Today it's much easier. You go to a. website, they'll tell you first of all. if they're hiring. These a all these. agencies, they'll tell you if they're. hiring. They have recruitment centers. You apply. You go to them. They don't go. looking for you. Okay? Sometimes they'll. do job fairs. They'll go to universities. and they'll try to recruit people, but. but more or less like a place like that, I think sometimes in the movies they. think like they're going to come. knocking at your door and say, "Hey,

Raj, you seem super special.". >> Um, they just have so many people. typically that put in. I think one of. the big factors or difficulties is. finding people that can pass all the. background checks p you know pass all. that stuff and sometimes it's hard to. find folks who have that level of of of. clearance that they they you know or. integrity or and not that you know when. you're young you do sometimes things or. when you're grown up you do things. So. you just can't have done too many of.

those you know inappropriate things. because that can impact you being hired. So then you apply. >> you apply and then you start the. process. So look what helped me I was in. the NYPD before. >> already. Yeah. >> So that shows okay this is a person. who's interested in law enforcement. Some people are in the military before. um and that's very powerful. >> you know for to show like hey I served. my country. A big thing is like you you. why do you want to do that job? And when. I would ask um applicants why do you.

want to be a secret service agent? you. know, I would get two different types of. answers. One was, you know, I want to. serve something greater than myself, and. then the other answer was like, oh, I. want to see if I can do this. And it was. usually the people that answered the. first way that did the best. Because. you're not doing it for you, you're. doing it for something bigger. If you're like if if it's just for you. when things get hard because they will. get hard especially in a hiring process. you're not going to have that stamina or.

ability to endure or go through the the. pain of getting through training. So. it's a multi-step process. You do you. apply and first do they even consider. you or not. So you may never hear from. anybody once you apply. If you hear it's. usually fill in some paperwork and then. they have bring you in for take a. written exam. There was a written exam. you have to take that when I took it was. very hard. I I for sure thought I failed. it. And then if you pass that then they. invite you to the next step and the next. step. If you pass those steps then they.

decide if they want to give you a it's. called a conditioner conditional offer. of employment. It doesn't mean you've. got the job. It now means you can go to. training and if you pass training then. we can give you the job. And then even. if you pass training, you get the job, then you're put on some kind of. probationary period where they can fire. you for uh for anything, they can get. rid of you. Because even if you put. people through training, you you put all these mechanisms in.

place to make sure you hire the best. person, which I'm sure you do as well. >> Yeah. And then sometimes you you don't. know. until you know until somebody is. physically working with you all the time. seeing them do the job and then you. realize this is a great fit. This is. really difficult. >> And so what they do is to make it easier. to let people go. And I think a lot of. law enforcement places do it. The NYPD. did it too is they do a probationary. period where they can let you go.

um much easier than if you were on for a. longer period of time. And what do they. test in training? Like what's the most. brutal part of the training? Because you. said once they're selected, not many. people are able to get across the. training period as well. >> Training usually at that point if you. get accepted into training that you they. still can ask you to leave at any point. At that point, they have invested a lot. of time, energy, and effort. And it's a. small group. It's not like a military. group where there's like hundreds like. it's it's it's usually a handful of.

folks. And at that point they do try to. I don't want to say help you but they. want to see you succeed because they've. invested all that time, energy, effort. and money. >> Um but you do training is uh combat. fighting. It's driving and not like fun. driving because you have people like I. love to drive and I love to drive and. when I did training I was it was one of. the it was so stressful because you can. get disqualified at any point and you're. doing tactical driving with bulletproof. vehicles which is very hard looks cool.

on TV very difficult to do in real life. uh to do certain maneuvers with them a. lot of testing written exams. um the law ethics uh policies and. procedures so you have to really be kind. of a master of all. And the other part. of it is I think probably what's also. hard is that your performance is out on. display for everyone. There's no. privacy. So people know if you pass or. fail. People know how well you shoot or.

don't shoot. So like for example, when. you're shooting at the range, again, sounds cool. It can be a stressful. thing. At least it was for me and I know. it was for many agents because. >> you want to perform well because the the. person next to you, the left and right. of you or even further down, they they. would write our scores in big black. magic marker. They would score it. They. didn't pull you to the side and say, "Hey, let me tell you what you got, Evie. We need to do better." No, they. they they wrote your score out in big. letters so everybody could see how well.

or how poorly you performed. >> And why why would they do so? Why would. they want to publicize every result? competitive environment and honestly if. you can't take people seeing your. weaknesses you can't be there you have. to be a very resilient person it's not a. job where they're going to hold your. hand. >> and so if you're a person who's I don't. mean it it like overly sensitive or. things hurt your feelings you're going. to you can't do that job because it's a. very direct job it's like hey I need you. to do this I need you to fix this and. you can't you it's you can't have.

personalities. where they're easily affected or. impacted their feelings get I I don't. mean it in a negative way. I just mean. it it will make the job very difficult. to do and especially when you deal with. life and death. If you can't deal with. the embarrassment of performing badly. and people seeing it. >> Yeah. >> then you can't you can't do it. So it. does make you also it makes you. accountable because now I know how well. or not well you're doing and if I care.

about my my reputation. then I'm going to I'm going to work. harder and perform better. True. >> So, it's it's another thing, too. Sometimes shame's a big thing. >> Um, it's not a bad thing. >> I know sometimes people like, "Oh, shame's bad." No, shame shame keeps you. uh on your toes. Shame keeps you uh. making better decisions. You know, guilt. and shame like they serve their purpose. >> And shame is one of the biggest. motivators in the world anyway. Like lot. of people don't mess up or don't because.

of shame and embarrassment. >> Yes. And I think sometimes I think a lot. of times in society or today you hear. like I don't want to feel how do you get. rid of the shame or how do I get rid of. these bad feelings and I I think it's. mislabeling them and that everything. serves a purpose. Even guilt guilt is a. good thing. If you feel feel guilt it. means you did something wrong that you. should feel bad about. And when you feel. bad about it what does that mean? I will. not do it again or I will do better next. time. But if you take that guilt away or.

that shame away now you have no. attachment. In fact, when you look at. people who commit if you look at people. who are sociopathic, they're called. antisocial personality disorders. People. who commit really bad crimes. So, think. of like serial killers or people at that. level. Uh part of the reason that. they're able to do that is they feel no. shame. They feel no guilt. They don't. feel bad. So, they can do that. There's. a very low, if not zero empathy. So, those feelings when people feel shame,

embarrassment, guilt, they are good. I. felt them all the time. I still feel. them all the time as a human being. And. they keep me they keep me steady and. they help me make better decisions. >> Interesting. What's the most unusual. thing you were trained on? >> What's the unusual thing that I did. training in? >> I'm trying to think. I understood why we. did it. I don't know if it was unusual, but driving bulletproof cars. At first, I thought it'd be not easy. I was like,

"Oh, this will be great." It was very. hard maneuvering the vehicles. Um, >> but why would they teach you? You were. not a designated driver, right? >> Oh, I drove everybody. >> Okay. >> You you learn You know what the great. thing with that job is? You do. everything. You go from driving to. standing here because you're driving. protectes, individuals. So, you need to. know how to drive ballistic vehicles. Um, and uh because of the weight of the. cars, they're very hard. If you're going. very fast, they're very hard to.

maneuver. So, ballista cars sound cool. Really difficult to navigate. At least. for me, it was. I'm trying to think what. was surprising about training. I think. what was surprising to me because I had. no military background. And I actually. learned this in the NYPD. I didn't. realize how militarized it was. It. they're called paramilitary, which means. the training is designed similar to the. military. And I didn't know. I thought, "Oh, this is great. It will be like. college." and it was nothing like.

college. And so it was very hard. Um, people are not there to hold your hand. NYPD, for example, is a class of 1,500. cadets. 1,500. You're you're nobody. You're you're next. You're nothing. Um, and you learn that very quickly. [snorts] And you learn to, you know, you. either sink or swim. And I think that. part is is hard. Not understand. >> What was hard about that training? What. was. >> NYPD? Yeah, >> I think the first few months, especially.

the first month, their job is to just. get people to I think they just weed out. the weak. >> They just weed people out. >> They're yelling. They're yelling at you. They're making you do push-ups for no. reason. Somebody's phone went off. I. remember we were on the m mustard deck. They call it muster when they take. attendance. They line everybody up. You're standing like this. You're. freezing. >> and you're out. I remember the mustard. deck was on a rooftop in the old uh. academy in New York City and it's. freezing and you're standing there.

>> Um you can't move, you can't budge. Uh. and I remember once somebody's phone. went off, somebody all the way in the. back and you're not not supposed to let. that happen. And then all of us had to. do push-ups for I don't even know how. many. Or if somebody does some small. infraction, they find reasons to punish. you. I think the. the the best quality you can have for. stuff like that is your ability to. endure pain. >> Both physical pain and probably. emotional, psychological pain. >> If you can do that, you can kind of do.

anything. You know, I'll come back to Secret. Service and bunch of other things in. protection group, but because you are on. NYPD, I'm just curious to know. America is one of the most powerful. countries in the world. Probably the. most powerful country in the world. today. New York is the hub. And yet, New. York is getting more and more unsafe day. by day. Why do you feel NYPD is not able. to make New York safe? I I actually.

taught taught criminal justice and. criminology here in the United States. for about 10 years. And there's two. dominant things that prevent crime. The one is, you know, you're going to. get caught without a shadow of doubt. If. I know I'm going to get caught and get. caught fast, that's one deterrent. >> And the other deterrent is I'm going to. be punished. [snorts]. >> These are the two most important. factors. If you take one of these away, [snorts] it increases people's.

likelihood of committing crime. Usually. also people who commit crime tend to be. it tends to be a smaller group or. network of folks that commit crime after. crime after crime after crime. The other. thing is I think we're also in a place. or space where there's a dislike for law. enforcement. It's a very negative view. Um when I started the NYPD was before. September 11th. So before then, people. didn't like law enforcement or police. either. I remember we used to run by the. highway here in New York City. The it. was called the FDR. They have us running.

and you could tell we were police. recruits and people would drive by doing. 50, 60 miles an hour and they would spit. at us. They would curse at us. They. would give us the middle finger. And I. remember cuz I was very young. I didn't. understand. I was like, why do they hate. us so much? I I'm becoming a police. officer because I want to help. But. there's high distrust uh in society. And. the ironic thing is police was created, the first police department was created. in London, Metropolitan Police Force. And it was in the 1800s.

I can't remember the exact date, but it. was in the mid to late 1800s. It was. created. And the reason why police were. created. is because it was for people who did not. have money. Police existed, but private. police existed. That meant people with. money could get justice. So if somebody. stole from me, I would pay for private. police and they'd go get me my person. So what politicians realized or. political leaders realized at that time. this isn't right because what about the. rest of society? So that's when they.

made police public. So police actually. exists for people who don't have money, who can't afford security. So sometimes. when I hear people criticize law. enforcement or want to defund the police. and say no police, I don't think they. realize that it actually exists for. people who don't have the the money to. get justice, to get help. And that's how. it actually started. One of um John. Franchie, I'm going to give him a shout. out now. For former CIA chief in the. Middle East, I can't say what country he.

was in. And I asked him, I'm like, "How. do you how do you destroy a country?". And he said, 'You know what? He said, uh, I got a great answer once from a. former member of the KGB, Russian, and. he said, the way you destroy a country. is to kill it from within. >> And how do you kill it from within? >> Divisiveness. You break the unity. And so if. everybody's fighting each other, which. sadly it appears in the US it looks like. that, um, um, that's a great way to.

bring a country, a very powerful country. down. It's it's it's you you you destroy. it from within. >> because if you're attacking a country. from the outside, usually that country. is unified and they fight back. It's. very powerful. >> But if I'm fighting you and my neighbor. and this other person or the person. there, um there are, I think, outside. entities and bad actors are doing a. great job in getting people to do a lot. of infighting. And I think it's really.

important for people to pause and say. what I'm consuming. is it true and is it the whole story or. is it 1% and I'm ignoring the 99% cuz. again I do the news I'm in media media. now which also has high distrust uh. media and news. So I'm always very. careful as to what I say and share but I. know that every time I go on air I am. unfortunately discussing negative things. about policing. It's always like what. did they mess up? What did they not do? Uh what are they doing bad here? So if.

that's all you hear and that's all you. see that's your truth and reality. >> Who are the countries which are trying. to dis destroy United States from the. inside? >> I would think a lot of powerful actors. It's not it's not China, Russia. It's. just the way it's it's it's played. It's. it's become a new warfare. I'm not going. to drop bombs. I'm gonna, you know, put. bots or I'm gonna put actors to help. create conflict online and and confuse.

your population. Why do you think some. countries control the internet? Some. countries really control the internet. and what people are allowed to see and. share and voice because they want to. control narratives. >> Yeah. >> Because if if if I don't control the. narrative, then somebody can disrupt. my country and my ability to govern that. country. Many countries do that. They they they. you know they they they filter what can. be said and you could look at it as a. bad thing and yes it's got its negative. but at the same time they're like hey.

I'm trying to control the narrative cuz. I want my people to believe what I want. them to believe whether it's good or not. >> it's up for debate but in the US because. it's anything goes then anything goes. and so you always have to understand. like even if I do an interview like this. I'm very hyper aware of everything I say. because I know there are bad actors are. going to watch this and they're going to. try to collect intelligence to say, "Oh, she's going to talk about the US Secret. Service and the US government.

>> What can she say and what can I learn?". Cuz I'm a bad actor and I want to. >> attack create conflict. So, it's always. like running this balance of you want to. share information with people and at the. same time I have to be hyper aware of. what I say when I open my mouth. Is. there a way that you can make people. tell you more things like you can. extract things out of them? >> Yes, I mean I do that all the time when. I was an an examiner. [sighs and gasps]. >> Well, there are some influence.

strategies you can use with people. So, for example, autonomy is one that's a. good influence strategy. >> What do you mean better? >> So, autonomy is when I let you feel like. you're in control. for example is all right I'm trying to. think of a simple one so for the. interview. when I was doing my old job in law. enforcement even now in media not people. sometimes don't want to talk to you uh. but a lot of people did not want to talk. to me because if you talk to me there. was a very good chance you might go to.

jail or prison so what's the benefit of. talking to me but the way the law works. in the United States. um you cannot make somebody talk to you. even if they're in custody even if. they're arrested said they have the. right to remain silent. They're they. have Miranda rights. You have the right. to remain silent. Uh you know, you don't. have to share an information. You know. that if you share information, it can be. held against you. So, one of the things. I would do to make people feel like they. have control and authority, I would tell.

them, you can leave at any time. You. have a choice. There's the door. I would. show them the door. I would even say, look, the door is unlocked. You can walk. out. I would make sure that my chair. when I could did not block the door, that they always felt that they were. free to go if they were not in custody. or if they were free to stop speaking to. me. So, I gave them a choice. It's like, "Hey, just come and sit down. You don't. have to say anything. Let me do the. talking and at any point if you want to. walk out, you can walk out. I just gave. you a choice so you don't feel like I'm. holding all the cards. But if I'm like,

"No, sit down and you're going to talk. to me and you're going to tell me this. If you don't tell me this, you're going. to jail." I'm taking away your autonomy. So when people feel the choice like I. can walk out any time and she won't stop. me. That's autonomy. You feel better. You feel like I can I'm in charge. >> Control. >> That's that's a really good influence. strategy. Other influence strategies are. reciprocity. I do something for you in. hopes that either later on or. immediately you'll do something for me.

M. >> people don't like to feel for some. reason we're wired most of us. >> not to feel like we owe somebody. something. So think about doors like. when people hold doors you ever walk. through double doors where it's doors. and then another set of doors which some. of buildings are like that. So if. somebody holds a door for you and you. walk through you're like oh thank you. and what do you immediately do? >> You grab the next door to hold for them. to do it for them. That's called. reciprocity. So when you do things for people. you should do them for the the niceness.

of doing things for people. However, there are some people use it as an. influence strategy. I'll do something. nice for you in hopes that you will. reciprocate and do something nice for. me. That's influence. Especially let's. say I'm going to do something nice for. you Raj because maybe I want to get into. the podcast business and I don't know. anything about the podcast business but. you're really good at it. So I'm going. to do a lot of nice things that have. nothing to do with podcast for you. That. way later on I can come to you a month. or two months later. Hey Raj, I got a. question for you. I want to launch a.

podcast. Could you guide me or help me. out? And you're going to say, "Sure, Evie, because I did a lot of things for. you before. Nothing to do with the. podcast space.". >> True. >> But I put like money in the bank. >> of Raj and now I can come to Raj and I'm. going to withdraw. And you're thinking, "Oh, she's done so many nice things for. me." Now, you should do nice things for. people, I think, within reason because. we should all help each other out. I I'm. not self-made. I had good people along. the way that helped make me and get me.

to where I'm at. But if you But it's. also, you know, you can also look at. people and say, "This person maybe later. on in life can give me guidance or. support. Let me give value to them." So, it's like a a tricky slope, you know, but then there are people completely. manipulated. But that's another. influence influence strategy, reciprocity. And I'll give you one more. authority. If people see me as an. authority, they are more likely to say. yes to me and not challenge me. So if.

you're able to carry yourself in such a. way or make somebody believe that you. are the authority in that dynamic, uh that's influence. >> How do you make yourself an authority in. the room? >> It can be the way I enter the room. It. can be the way I speak and the way I. dress. It can be the R I put off. It. could also be my voice. There was a. study done 2012 in the United States. They looked at politicians and they. wanted to see which politicians would. win an election. They were trying to see.

patterns and they found that those. politicians who won the majority of the. elections, they all had a deeper. stronger tone voice. It's called paral. linguistics. because of the way they. sounded when they spoke. They were. deemed to have more authority. Nothing. to do with their competency or anything. like that. Just what they sound like. when they spoke it. They spoke. So if I. have a higher voice, I'm seen as less. competent and less of an authority. Hi, I'm Evie. Hi, I'm Evie. This is who I. am. I'm deemed as being more of an.

authority. So there's other little. there's other techniques and strategies. that you use to make yourself appear or. not appear as an authority regardless of. title or status. >> So one strategy to appear authoritative. was voice. >> It can be your voice. Yes. >> Where are two three more. >> can be dress. So darker colors which. you're wearing now um exude more. authority. Like if I came in here. wearing a bright yellow outfit and I'm.

former US Secret Service, I even if I'm. highly competent, um just the appearance of what I'm. wearing is going to take my authority. away. >> Some people are going to doubt. >> The people are going to doubt it. And I. understand why. Here's the thing. When. you don't, you know, first impressions, they matter. It's like 0.1 second to 0.5. seconds, 01 seconds to like 2 or 3. seconds. It's like super fast. Once. somebody Raj has a negative impression. of you, it it's it's extremely difficult.

to reverse. So, how you show up, how you. enter a room, what you wear, uh how. you're dressed, your movements, all of. that. People within seconds decide how. they see you. And if they make a. negative impression of you, it is deeply. difficult to to undo. And it takes a lot. of patience and a lot of time and a lot. of work on your end. Consistency to. change that. That's why it's really. important always think about how you. show up immediately. And with that,

social media comes in cuz it's not just. me showing up here. You've probably. looked at my social media. You've looked. at my post. You look at what I write. That's another thing people have to look. at. Um cuz people are already making an. impression of you before they even met. you. >> Let's get into details of security now. Because when the whole world is lying, you can't trust anyone. Everyone you see. them as a threat because there can be. possible threat from anywhere in the. world, right? And you're you are.

responsible to be in a group to protect. the most powerful person in the world. where probably the enemy line is like. the whole world is your enemy. How do. you design this? Like what is the. layers? because all we see is one guy in. the center was the president of United. States and then we see a couple of. bodyguards around them. How many layers. does it go out as well? >> So it's a lot of security layers kind of. like how you were saying you created. layers around you. >> uh for people who want access to you. It's the same thing. So you have to.

think of layers of first of all there's. layers from the security side and. >> the the people in the closest in the. center of the circle they call that. shift. shift is like you're literally. the bodyguard. So, this is like it's the. last line of defense. If something gets. to the shift, if I'm standing next to. the president and a shots fired and it. hits us or hits him, I've I failed. >> Okay? >> It should never come to that. Um, but. you have components that create, think.

of like circles of security around that. person, layer upon layer. And the idea. is each of these circles are supposed to. stop or intercept a threat at some. point. So what are some examples that I. can share? So for example, something. counter sniper. >> So if I one of the worries you have is. let's say right now we're in New York. City, high-rise buildings. If the. president's moving, arriving and. departing somewhere, I I'm not just. securing the ground. I'm securing what's. up top. I've got all these high-rise. buildings. So anybody, a sniper, can.

embed themselves anywhere and take a. shot. So that's one layer of security I. have to manage. So you would put counter. snipers. M those are tactical teams that. are obviously on the side of the Secret. Service or local law enforcement who are. supposed to take positions to look at. literally every open window and they. would be like on the radio, hey, I see. an open window. So just imagine how. crazy that is when you're moving the. president or someone like of that nature. where you're walking around and you're. literally like hearing, hey, open window.

on 13 at this this building or open. window here. And then there would be a. team uh that would go to each open. window, go to that. I remember once. President Bush, I can share this story, went to Argentina. >> and I was assigned to be the counter. sniper response. So the counter snipers. are looking at all the open windows and. the ceilings and the area. And it was me. and another person who were assigned to. respond cuz they can't move and they. don't want to shoot when you have to see.

a threat to shoot. You have to see a. threat. So, I was part of the team that. would respond to all these open windows. And so, I remember there was one that. came in, a threat, and now we're in a. foreign country, mind you, Argentina, where [snorts] we go, and there was a a. potential person on a rooftop. And this. the counter sniper, all he could see was. a lens. >> So, he couldn't tell if it was a lens. from a weapon or it could have been. binoculars. There's no way to know, but. he could see the light from the lens or. the reflection. So, we're we're running.

to respond to this. go all the flights. up, you know, and it and you don't know. and you're hearing, hey, they're moving. closer and you're hearing all this. traffic and you're thinking, oh gosh, the president, and it was President Bush. at the time, is moving and you get there. and it was it was this older man who had. binoculars who was trying to watch, but. I mean, we scared him half to death, you. know, he was like, "Oh my god, I'm. sorry." You know, loto, loento. Um, >> but that those are layers of protection. So, that's one layer. So, you're getting. the counter snipers you're doing. you.

have something and I think I can share. this to some degree. There's teams on. the ground that are dressed like. everybody else and they're just in the. crowd and they're blending in the crowd. And usually those people, you put them. where the crowd is. You put them where. protesters are cuz I want to listen to. what the protesters are talking about. cuz anywhere the president goes, you're. going to have protesters. >> Period. The end. There's always going to. be hate. And so they, at least in the. US, you have to allow them, it's their. first amendment right to speak, but you.

want to put them in a place where they. can feel heard, but where it's safe. So. we position them somewhere. So you want. to make sure you've got teams there. Um, you've got. >> the vehicles, >> okay, >> which are highly tactical vehicles, ballistic vehicles. So that's another. thing. And some people don't know this. The most vulnerable a protectee is is in. movement, arrival, departure. When. they're in a physical location like we. are, I can control components. Outside.

is like where you're the weakest. Also, like when the cars are moving cuz. another thing that was a concern were. ambushes. I'm driving and somebody puts. an IED on the road. Boom. Right. What do. I do? So, you always want to stay in. motion. You never They used to say get. off the X. You never want to be locked. into a problem. And I actually even used. the get off the X psychologically. Whenever I'm dealing with a problem and. I feel stuck, I'm like, I'm on the X. I'm on the X. Get off the X. But this. was a tactical thing that would be done. The [snorts] other thing you would also.

do is you may not realize it, but. it's not just the Secret Service. Secret. Service is a is a small agency relative. to other agencies. So you would go to. local police department. So right now. we're in New York City. So I would go to. the NYPD and I would say, "I need. uniforms. I need officers and they would. scatter them throughout the city. And. one of the things you would decide too. is how many officers do you want in. plain clothes that blend and then how. many do you want in uniform. So you. would want both. Some people would be. like, "Oh, I don't want any in uniform.

I would want them all plane clothes so. the public doesn't know." Wrong. I want. officers in uniform. Why? Cuz if I'm a. bad actor and I see uniform, what am I. going to do? I'm going to turn around. and go the other way. It's just. sometimes just the presence of seeing. that uniform there that deters. They do. it, police do it. I don't know if they. do it in India, but here in the United. States, they will park police vehicles. in certain locations. No police in them, but they'll park them in certain. locations where they think people speed. And so people see the police car and.

they automatically slow down even though. there's nobody in the car. >> I didn't know this. >> Yes. Visually seeing law enforcement is. a deterrence. So a lot of it is visual. Um, most people will see and they'll. turn around. Then you want to think of. like barricades, physical things you can. do to secure a spot. I think I can share. this one, too. Like I'm always very like. thinking about what I can and cannot. share. >> cuz uh I never want to impede the. ability of the the the service to do.

their job. >> But I had one uh assignment where the. president and this one was President. Barack Obama. was going to speak in an. open open area. >> and near that open area there was a. highway. and my concern was somebody driving by. that it it was like a service road. highway but my concern was somebody. driving by and detonating a their. vehicle and that blast hitting the stage. or the area where the president was. The. other thing is too we keep talking about.

securing the president. I'm also. responsible for those 10,000 people that. are going to be there because you what. you don't realize is he's the threat, right? He's the volatile thing. He's the. he's the thing people want. But people. people that are around that now are. vulnerable. >> So I have to think I have to keep those. people safe. It's not just this person. and forget everybody else. So I remember. I was trying to think how do I secure. this this roadway? So I had line of. sight issues which means people from the. road could see through. There were trees.

in in a forest, but they could still see. through. So, line of sight. I don't want. people seeing in that are not in my. secure space cuz I'm thinking weapon. snipers. The other thing I'm thinking is. vehicles that could detonate. So, I was. like, "All right, how do I block this?". So, I start making phone calls to the. locals in the area, meaning the city. And at first, I called sanitation, the. people that do the the garbage, cuz here. in the United States, we've got heavy, big, thick garbage trucks. I was like, "I need garbage trucks." So I called and. because this was a so small area, they're like, "We don't have enough. garbage trucks for you." And so I'm.

thinking, "Well, I need trucks." And. then I called like construction places. I was like, "I can put bulldozers." I. didn't have enough. So I was like, "I. know what I'm going to do." I called. schools. I called, I think it was the. superintendent for the schools in that. area. >> I said, >> "Do you have some yellow school buses I. can borrow?" They said, "Yes, we do.". >> And I said, "How many school buses can. you give me?" So the district gave me. all their yellow school buses. and I. lined them up by the highway and by the. tree line. So they did what? They.

blocked my line of sight. >> That's one. Two, they would deter for a. blast. So if a blast came from the road, those school buses would absorb the. impact of the the the blast. Now, if I. had a second blast, it'd be some it. might be a bit of an issue, right? Cuz. you want to be able because you also. have to do the math on how much of an. explosive um and [snorts] how far can. that explosive reach. You have to do. blocks. There's so many things that come. into effect. So I remember I lined the. whole thing with yellow school buses. I.

just got them all. I had them lined up. I said, "Drop them off. I'll call you. when I'm done." When we were done, I. called them up. I said, "Come pick up. your school buses." So when you do. protection, you have to be very. creative. You don't think like a. protector. You think like the assassin. >> If I'm going to kill this person, how am. I going to do it? And I think of all the. ways I would kill the person. And then I. work in reverse and I build my plan. The other thing is something very simple. too, road closures, closing roads.

because I want to control what's in you. create clean space which is space that's. been cleaned that's secure. Um and then. you lock it secure and then you keep. everything dirty outside of it. So then. you have magnetometers. U if people are. coming to an event which is always a. variable you want to try to control or. not control. So there's so many layers. you you you would do. Another thing we. would do. >> and I think this is okay like for big. events like let's say the president's. going to speak at a stadium with people.

Um my concern would be not just. explosives but chemical biological. weapons, radiation. So we would have. devices there that would assess whether. there was any radioactivity, nuclear threats, bomb, that type of. stuff, radioactive devices. You have to. think constantly because the people that. want to do this, that want to cause. harm. And you know what, and it's funny, they probably don't think they're. causing harm. They think they're doing. something good in the world.

>> Usually people that do this stuff think. I'm I'm the good guy. And it's a, you know, >> yeah, >> they they they justify what they're. doing, but you put all these mechanisms. and layers in place to create a. protective environment. So I'm I'm. knocking one after another after another. each threat. The other thing to think. about, you probably wouldn't think about. it, is fire, right? So it's fire not. just for my person, but what about the. people? How am I going to get them all. out of there? >> How am I going to save all those.

thousands of people if there's an. explosion? So, I would have to have. medical teams on standby, not just for. the person I'm protecting, but also for. the crowd. So, there's so many things you have to. think of and layers that you put into. place to to offset and you have to think. at the end of the day, I'm there to. preserve human life. How do I do it? >> But how do you do that on a foreign. land? >> You work with foreign countries. Like. imagine one imagine a US president has. to go give a speech in China or but.

let's say India or China. [sighs] How. would. >> I've been to Russia not with the. president with um cuz we have other. people we protect. >> and it's a gamble because you have to. trust that other foreign country. Um, so. with Russia, I went to do to put the. security plan in place for the secretary. of the treasury to go because we. protected also the secretary of the. treasury. So I go, I put my nice plan in. place. I'm working with the State. Department. The Russians are going to do.

this. And then we show up. We roll up to. the gates. Hi, I'm here with the. Secretary of the Treasury. Now, I'm the. agent in charge of the whole thing, right? And um, yes, come on in. as the. gates open, my person goes in and the. Russians close the gates on the rest of. the team and they lock us out. And I am. I am I don't want to say I'm losing my. mind. I'm losing my mind on the inside. because outside I'm keeping it together. And you know those are examples of where. foreign countries will mess with you and.

they were absolutely messing with us. And it was really a terrible scenario to. be put in because the tactical element. which was our element was locked out and. there was only a small uh contingency of. protection with the person with the. secretary of treasury. It was horrific. And then the Russians to mess with us. further when it was time to be I. couldn't get in by the way. I literally. was at the gates fighting with the. Russians. I couldn't get in. And I'm. arguing with the State Department too. because at the time I'm like where's.

your muscle? like how could you allow. something like this to happen? And when. they were done with the meeting, so they. never let me in, they actually had my. protectee leave through a different gate. and then they gave them Russian uh. security and left us somewhere else. It. was horrific. So that stuff absolutely. does happen. It is going overseas, especially with countries that either. want to mess with you or are not. friendly, you are at sometimes the mercy. of that stuff. So you always want to be. really careful. There were times where I. would do protection plans in certain.

countries. and even though they were friendly, they. were really difficult to deal with and I. would make calls and say you can't bring. this person here. >> Like so but how the process goes let's. say if one now you're the person you're. trying to protect that person has to. land in another country you go there in. advance how many days. >> so let's say he's going to the. president's going to India right? >> Yeah. If I'm going to India, which is a. big country, let's say he's going to M. Mumbai, I'm going to send an agent uh.

and people out there probably a month in. advance to work with the Mumbai police, with the federal police in India, with. the military in India, whatever India is. willing to give me, >> I'm going to work with them. Now, typically with India, there's high. trust, right? Certain countries, there's. more trust than with other countries. Um, and I'm going to work with those. locals. At the same time, though, it's. funny because you're doing the. protection. At the same time, you always. have to worry about espionage too with. other countries. You want to disclose. some of your security plan, but you.

can't disclose all of it because now a. foreign country knows how you do. protection. It's such a weird dance. >> So, you want to show and give, but at. the same time, you don't want to show. and give everything because then the, you know, because every country sends. their their version of the CIA to watch. and listen and be like, "Oh, this is how. the Americans do it.". >> And sometimes they just want to copy. what we do because we we do it well. Um, and sometimes they want to know because. they're spying and they're collecting. intelligence. It's it's it the country.

you go to m matters. Who you work with m. matters. And also the the United States. does typically a really good job of. letting you know, hey, you're going to. this country. They play nice or they. don't play nice. These are the things to. be aware of. Or, hey, this country has a. police force that's going to work with. you. Uh, but there's a lot of corruption. with this police force. So, be very, very careful. There's high corruption in. this police force. watch what you share. Um, you know, presume that they're. selling this information to somebody. else. So, it's it becomes very. difficult. Foreign trips are typically.

massive massive headaches and then. sometimes you go to countries that just. want to mess with you cuz you're America. and you know sometimes people have. negative feelings towards America. But. don't you think like countries like. India or like any large country all. around the world they would want to help. you more like they would they would. provide their best security best stuff. to protect your president because if. anything happens in that trip it's a bad. reputation for the country. It's a bad. spot on the country, right?

>> No, no other country would want to mess. because you don't want to mess with, forget messing. You don't want to mess. with even a small country. You don't. want to show the world that a president. of another country came to your country. and this is what happened. >> Yeah. Well, it depends on the country. If you go to Iran, it's a country, you. know, >> you don't want to go there anymore. because you're directly at war. or. Afghanistan when we are at war they. would actually sneak the president in. >> because you can't trust sometimes some. governments because there's so much cor.

there's high corruption or sometimes. infighting sometimes you can't even. trust governments because they. themselves don't have a good handle on. the country so keep that in mind not. every country is India where there's. some level of law and order and. organization some countries are not they. don't have that there's a lot of. infighting there's civil unrest there's. problems where people don't recogn. recognize who's in charge. So keep that. in mind. So what country am I going to? Is there a stable government? Is that a. government I can work with? Does that.

government are friendly? And sometimes. even friendly. So you said why would a. maybe stable government or friendly not. cooperate? I remember one country, I'm. not going to say which one, it was. Africa. I was in Africa and this one. country where [snorts]. um one of my protectes was going to go. uh I was sent there a month out in. advance to put a protection plan or. security plan. And now typically we want. to bring uh uh from the US weapons and. cars. I want my stuff. I don't want your. stuff. >> I don't I don't know how good your stuff.

is. >> Um I want my stuff. Um, but this country. was giving me a very hard time saying. you can only bring in instead of I'm. making I'm going to make the numbers up. You can only bring in 10 guns, not 50. guns, right? And I'm like, well, I want. 50 guns. What am I going to do with 10. guns? So, there's an argument there. And. sometimes it would just be they're like, we'll have our people. And I'm like, I. don't want your people. I want my. people. So, that's where the issue would. come in because in the US, United. States, we train very differently. So. there's some countries where you're like.

nice country but they're not capable of. protecting or some countries will be. like well we'll give you ballistic. vehicles. No actually if you look at. images of the president any president. going anywhere in the world they are. always in their cars. You never ever ever use that host. country's cars. Look at any picture of. any president of the United States. They. are always in their cars. We fly the. cars over. Why? >> Because I know my cars are good. Well,

not my cars, the US Secret Services. cars. I know my cars are good. I know. they can withstand a certain amount of. bullets, uh, a certain blast. I don't. know what your cars are are like, what. they're designed. Forget about even. maybe there are bugs in there, meaning. spy bugs to listening. Forget that. I. know what my cars are capable of. Even. magnetometers, the the magnetometers. people were walk through in certain. scenarios and events. I don't want your. magnetometers. I want mine. I know what. mine are capable of doing. I don't know. what yours are capable of doing. And.

that's where trust comes in. You trust, but only so far. Conditional trust. I. trust my stuff works and works well. Yours not so sure. And it's not a risk. I'm willing to take. So sometimes. people's feelings would get hurt in. different countries. But you know, when. you're dealing with life and death and. you're dealing with. the most targeted person in the world, it's like you can't negotiate certain. things. But is it like full-time. negotiation going on between two. countries? >> Like when you want your person to visit.

there? >> Yes. You're always negotiating. You have. to do a good job. Because the other. thing is you could really ruin. diplomatic relations. >> Why? How? >> Because if I'm not getting along with. the government of that country, if they. I get sent to India and let's say India. is giving me a hard time, right? and but. the president of the United States is. going to India to speak uh with the. heads of state to encourage trade or do. something and let's say the the the. relationship is a little rocky. If I. come in and I create problems, it always.

goes to the top. >> and so now I'm creating a hostile. environment. I'm not I have to work well. and work nice. You're you're a diplomat. I had a diplomatic passport. You're a. diplomat. You represent your country. So. one your behavior are you behaving. yourself when you're in that country? Hey, you can't act stupid. >> Number one. Number two is, you know, your professionalism. >> and what you do or say, you're. representative of the US government. And. you have to think about every time you. open your mouth, am I representing this. government well? Cuz the phone's going.

to ring and they're going to say, "What. are you doing? We're going there to make. nice and you're creating a hostile. environment.". >> Although I I I'm gonna say this. um the. United States overall and at least in my. experience we were always when we would. do it always very respectful and very. good and we were told you play you play. nice when you go overseas. It was. usually the other way around. I know. everybody thinks America's the aggressor. but I will tell you from my experience. we usually went in very much in good. faith and it was usually sometimes maybe.

because of the reputation the US has the. some countries would be very difficult. to deal with. Some were just happy to. have you and they were like, "We'll give. you whatever you need." So, it just it. just ran the gamut. >> But why I'm still not able to understand. why they would not allow you 50 guns and. only allow you 10 guns. Is there a. reason or it's just a tactic that hey, we don't succumb to every demand that. you have. >> So, it's a really good question and. here's why. So, I'm going to flip it. Let's say a country is going to come to.

the US and they're like, "Hey, we want. to come to the yes and we want to bring. 50 of our personnel and they're going to. bring 50 guns.". >> The United States look at this looks at. this and says, >> "Your guys are coming in with guns." I. don't know what their training is. I. don't know how with their tactical. training, the laws here are different. Do I want that many guns in my country. from a foreign country with foreign. people? So, they do the same. Now, you. can make the argument, I'm going to be. American here. We're the United States. we have really good training. Um, you.

can trust us when we go to another. country. But then when that country comes to the. US and we're like, "Hey, I know you let. us in with all these guns, but we're not. going to let you in." So there's always. like this barter system. Okay, if you. let me in with 50 guns, I'll let you in. with 40 guns. So a lot of times it's. that. >> it's just a power play. What I can hear, >> of course. Yes. >> Now, let's come to the cars. You you you. were telling me about the car because. you kept bringing again and again. It's. very difficult to drive a ballistic.

vehicle. What is it? What's the. difference between a normal car and the. car for the most protected person in the. world? >> Basically, what's the difference between. a ballistic vehicle and a regular. vehicle? Ballistic vehicles usually have. layers uh that are put in them so that. if there's gun like uh bullets hitting. them that they're able to withstand the. bullets. ballistic glass, glass that. could withstand bullets. So, they're. essentially bulletproof. Tires, right? Because maybe I don't shoot the the car,

but I shoot the tires. So, you want to. make sure tires have kevlar or. something. Kevlar is like what. bulletproof vests are actually made of. It's fabric. >> People think ballistic vests are made. out of steel or metal or something. They're actually made out of fabric. >> Okay. >> Um, and that fabric when you put it. layer upon layer, it it's it's it's very. strong. So, but in Kevlar, though, here's what's interesting. In Kevlar, it. can stop bullets. It can't stop a knife. So, you can actually shoot someone, it'll stop it, but if somebody goes to.

put a knife with certain ballistic. vests, the knife will go through. >> Oh, >> yeah. So, there's different types of. bulletproof vests. So, there's so so. there there's different things. So, with. the vehicles, they basically line them. in such a way. They'll get the cars. In. the United States, it's usually you'll. see it's suburbans or Cadillacs, American cars. They get the vehicles and. then the US Secret Service has their own. team that will take the vehicles and put. do things to the vehicles, shield the.

vehicle in such a way where it can. withstand firepower. where it can withstand explosives. um or any other type of attack. That's. how it's designed. And there's numerous. cars. Now, when you do this though, the. car becomes heavy. M. >> And so now you have to make sure too. that the suspension of the car can hold. all that weight. That's a whole other. thing. >> Yeah. >> Because. the chassis and suspensions of a car are. designed to to hold 3,000 tons or 4,000.

excuse me pounds or 4,000 lb, whatever. it's designed to hold. When you add. ballistic on top of it, the car gets. heavier. So now you you may even have to. change the framework of the car. So the. car may sit lower. There's all these. tactical things that go into place. So, you have to drive them a certain way. You have to be careful when you drive. them. And again, because of the weight, when you speed with those cars, when you. hit the brake, it slows down a lot. slower. Uh, it's harder to slow down.

It's kind of like driving a big truck. You know, when you see a a small car. versus a big truck driving, if they're. both going the same speed, the small car. will stop faster. the bigger truck cuz. it's carrying all that cargo. It's it's. more dangerous. It's going to slop. slower and then if it stops abruptly, the cargo can like literally break the. metals and like come through. >> So you the the the ballistic vehicle is. like that. So when you drive those cars, there's special training. They teach you. to drive those cars. >> Is it slower?

The car because of all this weight, the. car can only go up to like 60 m hour of. >> It's not slower. It's just you have to. drive it. differently and I can't say how fast it. goes or not goes. >> Yeah. But then just the just the science. like the the physics doesn't add up, right? Like it has to be slower because. it's. >> they make modifications to the car. uh all sorts of modifications so that it. can. >> catch up to a certain speed. >> Yeah. So they modify not just the.

exterior of the car, everything so many. things within the car itself. Another. thing you used to do for. the government was interrogation, right? How to interrogate in a nice way. >> So you have to be highly ethical when. you do that stuff. You have to be highly. ethical. So even with the polygraph, which is really polygraph's like a. laptop, like that thing, it's a software. system and then you could you connect. components to people. Now, the. polygraph's great, but if I'm not.

ethical, I can I can get you to fail it. >> Oh, >> yes. I can get you to fail it. Um, so. you have to be very ethical and I I I. because I was always um I understood the. gravity of what we were doing and I. never wanted to have like somebody. else's life on my hands. Like I didn't. want to be responsible for somebody. spending the rest of their life in. prison. I'm like, "No, thank you. I. don't I need to sleep at night. It's not. just for myself.

>> Um, >> but you I I would always be very careful. like there's a whole mathematical. computation in how you do it. But I. would always air I would give people. more often the benefit of the doubt. and it would be so so that if you failed. my polygraph, you deserve to fail it. >> Where often I would get people. inconclusive, which means they didn't. pass it and fail and I would spend a lot. more time. Um, but you might have some. people go, "Nope, they failed clearly.". And now, now the polygraph itself, if.

you fill a polygraph, you can't get, it's not admissible in court. The court. doesn't care. At least here in the US, they don't care. But what they care. about is what a person says. >> But where a polygraph would help is. sometimes you would have people Raj who. are very good liars, very good liars, and they would be like, "Nope, swear to. God, never did this, blah blah blah. blah." And there were times where even. me, I'm like, man, I think I really want. to believe this person. I really like. him. I believe this guy. I want to. believe in him. And I'm like, "All.

right, you know, let's just do the. polygraph. Will be great." And I'm. thinking, "Yeah, they're going to pass. it." I hook them up and they fail that. thing. And I'm like, and I remember one. of the senior polygraph examiners, interviewers, interrogators, interrogators said to me, "Always trust. your charts. Your charts are the data. that you collect. the it it collects. electrodermal activity, how much you. sweat, it collects um the blood. pressure, flow of blood in the body. Uh. it collects a heart rate, it collects. all sorts of stuff. So that data lets.

you know what's happening internally. with that person. And if you feel. threatened, your it's your autonomic. nervous system. It it changes. So when. you feel any kind of threat, your. autonomic nervous system peaks to. protect you. Let's say like you're. walking crossing the street, a car goes. to hit you. You do. Yeah. [gasps]. >> Right. You you feel this influx of of. adrenaline. Everything changes because. your body is arming you to prepare you. to fight, flight, or either get hit by. the car. >> When you lie, it's the same thing. You.

fear getting caught in a lie. I want you. to think about time you lied Raj and. you're like man I hope I don't get. caught. >> or you got caught and think about the. threat that you felt because getting. caught in a lie it can be it can hurt. your reputation it can hurt your. business it can hurt your integrity can. hurt that relationship with that person. >> Yeah. >> So getting caught in a lie causes a. physical reaction. So the way the. polygraph would work is you get asked a.

series of questions and the polygraph. looks at how your autonomic nervous. system things you can't control like you. can't control how much you sweat you. can't control your heart rate you can't. control your blood flow you can't. control these things um how they react. to certain questions now you might say. to me yeah but Evie I'm taking a. polygraph I'm nervous of course. >> I'm going to be freaked out during this. whole thing right you're freaked out. during the whole thing so that means. every question I ask you, you're freaked. out. So, your norm or your baseline.

>> is freaked out. >> It's freaked out all the time. >> But I'm looking for when I get to that. one question, you extra freak out. >> And I'm like, wait a minute. I know he's. freaked out the whole way here, >> but why when I ask this one question. >> about let's say it's a it's a hiring. polygraph. Raj, have you ever done. drugs? I ask him this question all the. way to the top. We got an extra freak. out here. Why? That lets me know Raj has. a problem with this question. Now, maybe. the problem is.

>> Raj did a lot of drugs. Or maybe the. problem is Raj didn't do a lot of drugs. Maybe Raj's parent did a lot of drugs or. he has a friend who did a lot of drugs. or sold drugs. And when he hears this. question, it causes him to react. My job. as a good examiner is to sit down and be. like, Raj, talk to me. Talk to me about. this question. And now I need to figure. out what it is. That's how it works. But you don't. control these things. >> So even how much you sweat, when you're.

feel threatened, you sweat more. Do you. know why we sweat more when we feel. threatened? >> No. >> Because your body is is creating um. sweat so that when it thinks it's being. attacked, so it's helping you prepare to. fight. Well, when you grab a sweaty. person, can you hold on to them? Slip. >> Slips. >> Your body Your body's smart. Your body's. smart. So your body's getting prepared. Like so when they grab you, >> they can't hold on to you. >> It's evolutionary. >> The body is amazing. >> That's why sometimes people like, "Oh, I.

have anxiety. I have panics." I'm like, "That's good stuff to have. Don't make. it all go away cuz your body's. protecting you." Being anxious or. worrying, those are good. One, they're. good qualities to have as a human being. because it means you care cuz people who. don't care don't have those reactions. And two, your body is arming you to. protect you from whatever is happening. to you in that moment. But can you catch. someone [clears throat] like can you. catch a lie without the polygraph test. without something like can can if you.

and I are talking can you spot out like. if I'm lying or no? >> Yes. If I want to Yes. >> Okay. How how to catch a lie? >> It depends on the person. So let's just. use your example. You have a a baseline. right of how you are. So you're for. example like I'll give you an example. When you speak your tone is always the. same. >> Yeah. >> You have a soft tone. You have a certain. tone. But if I start talking to you, let's say I ask you a question about. something maybe with your family and. it's a very sensitive issue. If I hear a. shift in your tone, I'm going to be.

like, "Oh, Raj has always been talking. this way the whole time. Why the shift. in tone? Why did he just peak or why did. his voice just crack?" Or this whole. conversation, Raj is answering. questions. And the minute I asked him. about his parents, he did this. [clears throat] before he answered. He. never did it before. If all I do in that moment is I ask. myself, why did he just do that? >> So the the key here is when you do that, then I have to pay attention that you. did that and I have to now ask you more.

questions about your parents. And maybe there's nothing. Maybe there's. something. Most people let that stuff. go. And that's the problem. So here's. the thing. If I'm interviewing the whole. time and the whole time we're talking. you're doing uh uh uh then I'm like. that's what Raj does. He's got something. in his throat. He needs water. That's how you detect lies. I think what. where people get uh stuck is they think. everybody who's going to lie is going to. scratch their nose. Like I hear crazy. stuff like that all the time. >> Now look, if the whole time I'm talking.

to you, you're sitting like this, which. you've been, you've have your pen in. your hand, you have your arm crossed, >> and I ask you something very personal. that you don't want to answer. And it. could be either it's just personal, you. don't want to answer it, or it's a. secret, or there there's something that. makes you uncomfortable, you want to. lie. If all of a sudden you do this, I'm. going to notice it cuz I'm going to say, "He didn't do it before. Why is he doing. it now?" That's how it works. >> One part of your job was catching the. lie. The other part was you've been a.

spy. You've been somebody who has lied. to people, right? The Russian story I. was listening like you lured a specific. Russian. Was that your story? Remember? >> Oh, the Russians. >> Yeah. Like you were. >> Which one? >> That's the one story I was reading that. >> Oh, when I would do undercover work. >> Yes. You do undercover work. So you. would you would live to lie, right? You. would do undercover. Undercover is kind. of being [clears throat]. mixing up with people trying to do the. espionage work. Yes. >> Being the spy. So you did that. So you. lied for a living.

>> I did. I did. I'm sorry. I did. [laughter] But for. >> your whole identity was lie. You would. become someone else. >> Yes. >> How to become a good liar. >> Well, when I did undercover work, one of. the things that helped me is because I. did not look like an agent. So I felt. very safe. >> I felt very safe and comfortable and. maybe confident because I did not think. anybody would suspect me of anything. So. that was a big thing. If you feel safe, you're not as nervous and scared. I.

remember once I pretended to be somebody. who was being sex trafficked and I had. to pretend to be from another country. >> Tell me about the story. Where was it? >> This was here actually in New York and. it was with an organized crime ring. >> Mhm. And sadly in New York there's a lot. of sex trafficking. Different countries. uh do it. I had to pretend to be a girl. girl from I think it was in I pretended. to be from like the Eastern block Europe. over there. So I had to adopt an accent. so I could sound like that. >> And um.

>> what I was doing I was trying to. infiltrate an organized crime ring that. was selling passports. uh real documents, real birth. certificates, passports, originals uh to. terrorists. this is actually really the. case. So, you've got two crimes. happening at the same time. But in this. scenario, uh I needed to catch this. organized crime ring that was selling. legitimate documents to people in the US. who wanted to commit crime by proxy. though to everybody else, other other. crime rings, other different things. So,

I came in as a person who's being sex. trafficked and I said, "Look, I'm here. They took my documents. I want to get a. cell phone." You know, I would I would. lie. Like, you can't do if once they. take your documents here, you can't do. anything. You can't even get a phone cuz. they're going to ask you for ID. I don't. have no ID. They took it all. I can't do. anything. That's why it's really. horrible what they do to these young. girls. Um they them completely. And they are absolutely dependent on. their the people that have brought them. here and they can't get out of it. And.

they'll tell you, oh, you'll work it. off, you'll get it back or they'll give. you some money and then you go back to. your host country if they let you leave. So in this scenario, I was trying to. catch someone who was selling these. documents. So I pretended to be sex. trafficked so he could believe me. But I. was really we were really looking at. him. I wasn't looking at him. It wasn't. my case. They were really looking at him. as someone who was selling these. documents all over the place uh to. people. So I had to make deals with him. >> So I bought documents from him, gave him.

cash. He gave me documents, fake. documents, fake name, fake this, but. real passports and stuff. And then my. job was to bring other girls to him to. get paperwork. >> So that was an undercover that I did. And that was Albanian Russian. I This is. But but it was an organized crime ring. I want to say he was Albanian. Um and I. I did that one out of Brooklyn. So what. I had to do here is because he was so. hard to catch, I had to do numerous. transactions. And it was me and we had. some other girls who were they're not.

girls, they were law enforcement like me. >> who didn't look it. We gathered enough. on him and then the case agent took it. to what's called a grand jury here in. the US and they showed all the evidence. and then said here they did this in. secret because you don't want the guy to. know that you're doing this cuz he's. going to flee. >> They did this in secret and said look at. everything all these transactions we've. done. They're undercover. >> Can you give us a. >> a warrant? A technically it's not a. warrant. They give you an indictment. They indict the person which is sort of.

like saying yes, go arrest him. So, they. give you that and when you get an. indictment, it's locked in and you go. get the person. The problem with. arresting someone on the fly is if you. don't have enough, then the prosecutors. can say, "I don't have enough." You have. to let them go. >> So, that's why you want to collect as. much as you can. That way, it's locked. tight. And when you take it to a grand. jury and you get an indictment, you're. pretty solid. That means you've worked. with the prosecutors to say, "Yeah, yeah, you get me this, you got me this. stuff, we're going to give you an. indictment. Go get the person." So.

that's what the sex trafficking and it's. sad because you would think New York. City, right? NYPD, America, why do we have sex trafficking? And yet we do because people take. advantage of the visa system. They take. advantage of like how people come in. They take they take advantage, you know. So it's America is amazed. and you allow for all these things. But. when you allow for all these things, there's a there's a group of people that. will abuse these systems. But were you.

able to catch the guy? >> They caught the guy? Yes, they caught. the guy. I didn't uh cuz I was the. undercover, but they did catch the guy. >> Yes. >> You've interrogated. one of the top dreaded criminals in the. world. You understand interrogation very. well. You've extracted information out. of people which has helped protect your. country. You're one of the top experts. in the world right now. Right. I want to. understand if you would have gotten in. the room with few people in the world.

how would you have interrogated them to. extract certain information out of them. so I'm going to bring one by one okay. one is the highly spoken controversial. man right now. >> Epstein. >> Jeffrey Epstein if you were to. interrogate him how would you do that. >> so you're looking at someone very. wealthy knows everybody. I mean, this. guy knew presidents from all sorts of. countries, princes. Um, so you're going.

to deal with somebody what very. confident, probably very narcissistic, and he's probably extremely narcissistic. and arrogant because to do the stuff he. did, right? He's thinking I'm. untouchable. So, you're going to have. that person in the room with him. You. would need days with him. So, I'd say 5. days. I'd ask to sit and talk to him for. 5 days if he's willing to meet with me. And let's say he is. The first few days. I would talk about anything but the. case. Tell me about yourself. How'd you.

grow up? How you feeling, Jeffrey? Can I. get you food? Do you need anything? How. is it in here? I would just talk. I just. want this guy talking. >> Is this guy cuz he's not going to be. talking. >> This guy's smart. He's smart. He's not. going to talk. So, I just want him. talking. I need to build trust and build. rapport. Here's the thing. When you're. in law enforcement, remember how before. we were talking about everybody hates. police? >> Yeah. What kind of trust do you think. you're going to have? Not zero, less. than zero. So, I need to build trust. with this guy. And maybe I just talk to.

him about anything and everything. because I'm not expecting a confession. from him, but what I would like to get. from him is some information. I want to. know how he did it. Maybe I want to know. who was involved. I've already got him. So, I don't need the confession from. Epstein because I actually have enough. to convict him, right? But what I want. from him if I I want to know who he. played with, who was on his island, how. did he get the girls, what did he do? I. want to know how he ran the business. >> Who else is involved? >> Yes. I want to know how big this thing.

goes. That's what I would want to know. You already got this guy. So, if you've. got a Loctite case on him, it's like, talk to me about everybody else. That's. what I want. And he might give you other. people, >> right? >> To help himself. Maybe he gets uh not. such a bad prison. Maybe he maybe he. gets a slight slightly better deal. Again, it depends what you're charging. him with. So, that's that's what you. would do with this guy. So, him you're. going to I would want to know who who. his uh circle of people are, who he. brought to the island, who did what, who.

did this, cuz I thought I can get more. people and I can get these people. because think about one of the issues. with the Jeffrey Epstein case that. people are very upset about and angry. about is they want to know who else. He's gone. He's done. But it didn't die. with them because they're like, "Wait, all these other people were committing. all these crimes with him and they're. influential people. They're powerful. people. Who are they?" They want names. I wouldn't want names. That's Jeffrey. That he might give me.

>> if you if it helps. Yeah. If I build. enough trust and I'm like, "Hey, Jeffrey, if you give me names, let me. see what I can do. I'll talk to the. >> But what would you have to made him. believe for him to cooperate with other. names?" that it's to his benefit that. something positive for him can come come. of it. >> Like you can tell that this is for. because he know that he's going out. He's going in and he's never coming out. So you already know no amount of deal is. >> cuz I don't know what they were to. charge them yet. I mean I don't know. like.

>> but with what we know of. >> what we know. >> he's never coming out like if he was a. [snorts] person. >> but you can make his stay a little bit. better. It's also what kind of prison or. jail is it going to be put in, right? Maybe it can be a a prison that's not so. prisony, you know, that there's. different types. So maybe you make his. life a little bit easier. >> What type of prisons are there if you. >> there? So there's jails, there's there's. prisons, there's some uh prisons that. are um and not maximum security, but. minimum security, so it's a little bit.

easier. You have more movement, right? So there's there's different places they. can house them in. So maybe you tell. them, "Look, I'll put you in this. minimum security prison. It's a better. life style. Your food's better." Like. when you're when you're locked up, little things make a difference cuz you. have nothing. >> Fair, >> right? Or maybe he cares about something. or someone in his life and you're like, "Hey, I'll make sure this person's. >> is saved.". >> Yeah. Or taken care of or something. So. there's there's things you can pull at. if he has something he cares about. >> Got it.

What would you do with him? How would. you interrogate him? Because these are. going to be two different people. >> So, he's. You know what's interesting? This guy, this guy's more lethal than this guy. This guy's probably a little bit of a. coward. And here's why. Who did he prey. upon? >> Young women. Yeah. This guy's weak.

because you could tell cuz who he prayed. upon. This guy's This guy's nothing. This guy might even cry in the room. This guy know. cuz who did he deal with? Other drug. dealers, right? Other dealers. He's. moving stuff. He's lethal. Guns, weapons. This guy's really serious. So, another one that might not talk to you. Another one that might actually choke. you out in the room. So, I'd want to. make sure I'm safe. Number one. Um, with. him, I would want to know about his. network. Same thing. I already got you.

I want to know about your network. Now, him, if he has family that he cares. about, um, that's where you're going to. get him. His family, his loved ones, making sure they're taken care of and. safe. So, you might get him. You know. what's interesting with with someone. like this? It's like they have family. they care about. Um, they give money. back to society or the poor. They do. other things. So, it's it's like a weird. dichotomy. I'm dealing drugs. I'm doing. this and I'm killing people with my. drugs and I'll kill you. But at the same. time, I take care of my community. I. have my faith. So, it's almost like.

this, it's almost like this dual person. that you're dealing with. So, I with. him, I would approach the good part of. him, not the drug dealer part. So, it's. called chasing the good. I would chase. the good part of him. You're a good man. You have a family. You care about you. try to do the right thing by people. You. help the community. You donate money. You care. You know, you're you're you're. that's what you're going to focus on. with him. I want the good part of Pablo, not the bad part of Pablo. So, same. thing. Someone like this high level uh.

criminal, you need a few days with him. >> You're not going to get anything in a. couple hours. >> And you're only going to talk about the. good things so that he starts believing. in it that you also believe him. >> Cuz if I cha it's chasing the good. If I. talk to you and I pull out the good part. of Raj, the good part of Raj is going to. show up. If I sit and tell Raj what a. terrible person he is and all the bad. things he's done, what part of Raj am I. going to pull out? The bad part of Raj. And the bad part of Raj is going to show. up. And even if I'm right, you're going. to have something called reactants.

You're going to be defensive. You're. going to you're going to fight me even. if I'm right because I'm I'm hurting. you. I'm I'm I'm not I'm knocking you. down. So you have to like preserve. people's dignity. Mhm. >> So with him, also a very smart person, a. business woman, a business, excuse me, a. business person. So you want to talk to. him a certain way and treat me with. respect. This guy's going to be big on. respect, by the way. >> So you have to show him respect in the. room, >> because he's always been treated with. respect. >> Exactly. >> He wouldn't like it if you show him his.

place. >> Oh, and he's going to look at me like. I'm nothing. I'm Pablo Escobar. Who are. you? Some stupid little secret service. agent. What do you think you're going to. get out of me? So maybe in some ways. like he'd underestimate me. Also, I'm a. woman. He might look at me like, "Oh, what's she going to do?" So he might. just talk to me about whatever. Talk to. me about whatever. I don't care as long. as he's talking. >> H because he would not talk at first. place at all because his ego won't allow. to talk to you. >> I think some these pe someone like this. is smart. It's smart unless he gets.

something out of it. And again, unless. let's let's say you have his family, you. repented his family, a spouse or. children or anything. You're like, "Hey, I'll make sure they're taken care of if. you do this.". >> Well, what are you trying to get out of. him because you've caught on his. network? You've got on every. >> No, I got him. I don't have his whole. network. >> Yeah, but but you caught him because. >> But maybe I want to get the number two. Escobar, the number three Escobar, so. nobody else jumps in. All these guys. move. I want to run it bring the system. down. Maybe he can tell me about the. other dealers, the other cartels.

>> There's always something to learn. That's that's why you do interviews. Usually at this point when you have. someone like this and this, you don't. need the confession. >> Mhm. >> A confession is nice, but most of the. time you if something like this, you. don't need it. Cuz if you're going after. somebody like this, you've got you've. got enough to lock him away. You don't. want to mess around. >> Yeah. >> So that's what I would do. >> Mess around. Let's say you lock him up. >> You arrest him and then you you have to. let him go. You want to make sure that.

when you arrest somebody that you don't. have to let them go and that's that. you've got and the charges and and the. proof that you have is tight enough to. hold them. That's one of the worst. things that can happen when you arrest. someone and this was with my cases too. When I would uh work a case, I always. would go to the US attorney's office. That's how it works here, which is a. person who would prosecute and I'd say, "I'm investigating Pablo. Uh this is. what I have. Can we get him?" And most. often they'd say, "We can get them, but. I don't know if I can hold them. What I.

need you to do is go get me this, this, this, and this. You get me this. We got. a Loctite case." And so you would go out. and try to get the different things. So. like when I worked undercover, part of. the reason I was doing the undercover. stuff or I was asked to do it is they. didn't have enough. M. >> you want enough evidence on someone that. you've got them so that if they have a. really good attorney or they try to. argue that they can't get out of it that. you want to make sure you get a guilty. verdict if they go to trial cuz all this. is for nothing if the guy's found not.

guilty. >> Fair. Let me change again a little bit. These. two are different and this is. how would you interrogate him because. he's not like any of them? No, >> with Ted Bundy, I would kind of talk to. him about his life and his childhood. >> You know what he. >> What are you trying to get out of him? >> I want first I just want to talk it's. always like these guys are like all. heavy hitters. So you don't need these. are all full day like multiple day.

interviews. Just let's be clear. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> These guys are multiple day. interviewers. With him, you know what's. interesting with him? You might want to understand why he did. it. uh because there's no other network. of people with him. These guys are. different. Here's a he's a sole actor. So with him it would be like can you get. the confession? I think it also with him. more would be like what's going on up. here cuz it's a very unique situation. with how he was uh targeting people, luring them in, killing people. You want.

to understand he's more of understanding. human behavior. This is kind of like serial killer type. of psychology. And what prompts someone. to get to this point? So, this would be. more of a psychoanalysis. This actually. wouldn't be hard because again, assuming. I don't need a confession. >> If I need a confession, it it's tough. >> because now I'm trying to get you to. confess and I'm getting you to confess. and getting you to confess. >> But with him, this would be more of a.

why why did you do what you did? Why did. you target people? And can you prevent. behavior like this in the future? Like. what? Let someone like this doesn't get. there overnight. You don't become a. serial killer overnight. I remember once. you asked me before about polygraphs. when I would do applicants. I remember I. had one applicant who was wanted to be a. secret service agent and he told me when. he was growing up he would burn cats. like he would set cats on fire. So I was. like, "All right, tell me how many. cats." And I always started high,

>> a thousand, you know, 900. I mean, I. gave some crazy numbers in case it was. 1,000 or 900. So I think it was like, he's like, "Oh, maybe I've burned like. about 100 cats growing up." And I was. like, "Tell me about why you would burn. them.". >> Now, why do I care about him burning. cats? I mean, it's wrong to hurt. animals, but if you're burning cats, what's next? Do you see? You start off maybe with kicking the. cat, maybe declawing it, pulling it, hitting it. Then you burn it a little. bit. You burn it a little bit more. Then.

I'm going to burn another cat, another. cat. That's how these guys serial. killers go. Next, and then next. Everything's a slippery slope in life, Raj. If you don't keep yourself in. check, you can make anything okay. Anything you want, okay? If you want to. So, he didn't become Ted Bundy. overnight. Things happened to him over a. period of time. He did this and then. this and then this and then this then. you get to this place. So I would want. to understand him. >> But then see with with these two guys.

you're for him you're trying to. understand who else is involved with him. you're trying to understand how the. cartel operates and what is the how with. >> I want to know how the cartel does in. the operations right their tunnels how. they bring the drugs over. I mean these. guys some of the they use submarines. they buy submarines. It's ingenious. They have tactical gear. They have. military grade gear. Who gave you the. gear? Is it the government? Cuz there's. there's times where I would go work in. Central or South America and with some.

countries, they were like, "Be careful.". Cuz a lot of the the police were in uh. worked with the cartels. So, I had to be. really careful. >> So, yeah. So, with these guys, you we. know what you're trying to get out of. them. With him, why do you want to know. about the childhood? What what will be. the outcome if you get to know? you. prevent people like this from coming. into the world and then you know because. you're getting. >> can you stop at certain point in. childhood where things. >> are there things you can do are there. signs you can see in other people right. think of mass shootings we have them. here in the US or random shootings or.

right so what are some of the indicators. to prevent that so this is more of like. understanding the human mind the. psychology of it that's really what you. would get from this person here um and. you'd want to know how'd you lure them. but lure people in or get people in He. he it was very kind of simple what he. did. So there's no other intricate. thing. He would be more of understanding. him and and how people like him think. and behave. Look, it helps you. I do the.

news and whenever an incident happens. often I'll be on air with someone. Oh, another crazy person did this. And I. always think to myself, when you label. somebody crazy, how does that help? How. can you prevent stuff from like this. happening? If everybody's crazy, then. there's nothing to do. We just label. everybody crazy. But when you try to. understand the human mind, >> what breaks people or causes people to. get to this point, can you prevent it? Because crime's not going to stop, Raj. But what can you do to minimize this.

stuff? Otherwise, we should just let. everybody do whatever and then all we do. is punish people. You want to be. preemptive. So, it's not just about. being reactive. You commit a crime, you. throw handcuffs on a person, this and. that. Are there things we can do to. stop? So like the US Secret Service, they have the National Threat Assessment. Center where they try to assess and. they've actually worked with the. Department of Education in the past, which is the school system here, to try. to help them identify a school shooter. before they do it. >> They looked at characteristics. So if.

you can figure out what characteristics. exist between the Ted Bundy's of the. world or serial killers or people do. this stuff, you can help maybe minimize. or prevent it or teach uh schools or. systems or workplaces or police to look. for signals that maybe you can catch. this stuff before it gets bad. >> What signals did you read? Like what. signals were did they find out in guys. who would turn into a mass shooter? >> Mass shooters. So there's a couple of. things that you would see. Um, one of.

them, >> are there signs in a child that you can. tell that this person's might become. psychopath? >> It's it's it's behavior stuff. So, so a. couple of patterns you would see. One. was people who committed mass shootings. tend to have something happen to them. like a a life change or maybe a breakup. with a girlfriend or a partner or a. spouse, something happened there. That's. one. So, you would see that. You would. also see um they had access to weapons. So they were able to either there was a.

weapon in the home and they they they. knew someone who gave them the weapon. There certain attributes. They typically. communicated to someone at some point. So at some point they've told somebody. I'm going to do this whether in joke or. not. Um so that's another thing that. they would look at. This the all these. little things help school spot the. person in advance because the point is. >> but these are such normal things, right? Like I'm not talking about access to. weapon but having a breakup or telling. your friends that I would do some.

>> but not everybody. not everybody has the same internal. fortitude that you have not everybody's. stable people there's people who are of. weak mind and body. >> I understand that but how can you. identify this as a pattern because. >> you can see 100 people going through. breakup and 100 people joking about hey. you know what I'm going to kill that. person and like. >> sometime Sometimes it could be just. jokes and randomly people talking about. it, >> right? But the point is to pay attention. and maybe to ask that student, hey, come.

into the office, let me talk to you. Or. if that person works for you, hey, come. on here so that you at least notify, you. can notify somebody. That's the thing. >> Maybe you can notify, maybe you can see. that off behavior and you can tell. somebody. Um, and sometimes police can't. do anything. That that's another. problem. Like sometimes people also. sometimes if it's an adult with mass. shooters, you may see that they've been. uh uh interviewed by law enforcement. before at some point. That's also. another uh possibility. So with that, it.

just helps show certain indicators that. you'll see amongst these people. >> It it they're not easy things to spot. No, but often too they're planning them. So who did they share the plans with? if. they live with someone in the house, uh, a person in the home maybe can notice. the behavior and say something. >> Most often, the problem with these mass shootings is. people don't notify anybody or they.

don't notify, hey, you know, uh, I live. with my with Ted. Ted's been acting a. little weird lately. Can I talk to. someone about it? And until it's too. late, maybe at least if you put Ted on. the radar and people are looking into. Ted, maybe they can do something to. intercept Ted's behavior so people don't. die. >> It might stop at one or two and not. extend to like hundreds. >> Exactly. So you're looking at Ted and. Ted's fine, but I want to make sure Ted. doesn't kill other people. >> What can I do to stop Ted from taking.

lives? You're really just trying to. preserve human life at the end. So, if I. can intercept it, get this mass shooter. some help. Right. Ted's not a mass. shooter, but if I can get the mass. shooter some help, I can prevent it. >> True. Here's the last person that I want. to understand about this one's close to. you. >> Huh? Osama bin Laden. >> How would you interrogate him and what. will you try to find out from him? >> So, I've interviewed terrorists before. Um,

the one thing with Osama, you're going. to spend days. Osama is going to love. talking about himself and his cause and. uh his organization. So, you're going to. have uh one of the reasons they think he. did what he did was for significance cuz. he came from a big family and I think he. was kind of overlooked by some of his. family members. So, he wanted to stand. out. He was there was there's theories. that he was an insecure individual and. so this is why he did what he did. So. with him, you would want to you would.

want to tap into that. You know, tell me. about what you did. Tell me about why. you're doing this. He's going to want to. profess to you, I did this for the. greater good. He he thinks 9/11 was a. good thing. Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. That's what he believes in. Yeah. >> Tell me why you believe that. Tell me. why you feel wrong. He wants a platform. to to profess. Give it to him. Sure, I'll listen. And what will you achieve. out of that when you give him a platform. and in an interrogation you know he's.

going to say the same five things which. he's been saying in the world what are. you going to achieve out of this? >> So when people talk Raj they leak. information. So when they're talking even though they. think they're not saying anything. they're saying something. >> So what are you looking for? >> I'm looking for names. I'm looking for. places. I'm looking for locations. I'm. looking to who they're talking to. I'm. looking for dates of when he was where. and he might think I'm not. This is. stupid stuff I'll tell her. But maybe I. have intelligence on something else and. I want to corroborate dates and times.

Maybe I can link other attacks to him. Maybe I can figure out where he's. getting his guns from. Maybe I can. figure out who's next in command after. him. Maybe I can figure out who he's. working with. Maybe I can figure out how. big his network is and what other. countries it spans into. Maybe I can. figure out where his money is come. coming from. Who's giving him money? He. needs money to do this. Where are you. getting your money from? So I I want to understand terrorism. This is terrorism. >> And that you can achieve when you give. him a platform to understand his cause. >> I'm his platform. Tell me tell me more.

Really? >> I make him believe that you understand. the cause. That's how. >> I do understand the cause. I don't agree. with the cause. I accept it. See, here's. the deal. >> But you're going to make him believe. that you are understanding the cause and. you are trying to understand more so. that he starts believing you more and. start talking. >> But I want information. And all these. people more or less are giving me. information either to prevent something. happening in the future so we can take. the stuff. You have to learn from the. people you arrest. >> You have to learn from criminals there. None of these people are stupid. Do do.

you agree with me on that? >> Yeah. >> They're all smart people. They all. figured out ways to circumvent things. I. want to know. Do you know many times I. would arrest someone and I'm like, how. did they pull this off? Especially. fraud. There were some people that would. run these really intelligent scams and. I'm thinking, "How did this guy pull. this off?" And I'd sit in the room and I. I would be like, "I have to tell you. I. worked a lot of criminal cases. I'm. impressed. How did you do it?" And. sometimes just that alone would be like, "Oh, let me tell you." Cuz all these. dudes are narcissists. >> Oh, so the moment you tell them that.

you're impressed and you actually. >> I'm impressed. Yeah. Some Some, not all, but some of I'm like I'm impressed. I. How did you do this? Oh, let me tell you. how I did it. >> Please tell me. >> They get excited. Some do. >> That's a trick that you guys will put. off. >> It's not I don't know if it's a trick. It's true. I'm impressed. I don't know. how you did this. I would have never. seen this coming. Would you ever seen. like the idea of somebody flying two. flying commercial planes into the. buildings? And where would you see that? Like the imagination that that took to. create? Who thinks to do that? Who.

thinks to do that? This guy. And then. what other what other plans does he have. in place? cuz you're assuming just. because I caught him that there's. nothing else going down, right? Who are the assets? Does he have. spies? Does he have people talking to. other people? I I want to know. So, everything's going to lead to somewhere. if you take the time to talk. I'll say. this one mistake that sometimes. investigators do, police do. They think,

"I got my guy. I'm going to tell you. what a piece of garbage you are, and I'm. going to put you through the system, but. I got my guy. you don't know what other victims this. guy has. >> Uh I would especially see this with uh. child abuse cases or child sexual abuse. cases or predators like guys like this. >> Let's say I got Jeffrey and I I know he. victimized one girl, but there's. probably with with child victims, there's another 200 girls usually with. these guys. But what police do is like,

"Oh, I caught the guy that did this to. this person. You How do you know there's no other. victims? I want to catch the other. victims that this person's had and then. link them to him. So, people who commit. crime don't often commit one crime. They. have multiple victims. There's multiple. plans. There's multiple attacks they're. doing. >> Who would be the easiest to talk to and. the toughest to talk to? [sighs]. >> Him. I could talk to him. I could talk. to He might be tough cuz he's a dealer,

a drug dealer. cartels. I mean, they're. Osama might not be tough. He might, it. might be. He might be tough for me. because I'm a woman and I'm white. So, I'm like the lowest of the low for him, which is why I learned Arabic because I. did interviews overseas. So, I knew I. was going in at a deficit. I'm a woman. I'm white. I'm I'm Christian. I'm. American. I mean, I've got nothing going. for me. Less than zero. Um, so often I. would actually go with a male partner.

And even if my male partner was junior. to me, I would let my male partner. partner lead and I would be in behind. But I learned Arabic because I'm like, I. have to find things ways to connect with. this person. And so over time, it almost. would happen all the time. I would they. would start looking at me instead of my. partner and I would start talking and I. would throw in some Arabic and they're. like, "Oh, she speaks some." And I would. listen and I would just have. conversations. You know what I didn't. do? I never brought up 9/11. I never. said, "Hey, you know those two big.

buildings you knocked down? I was in. them." I never said that. I mean, excuse. me, I was there. I never said that. because who did I make that interview. about when I did that? >> He doesn't need to know. >> I would never tell him. >> cuz now it's personal. >> And that would be your mistake. >> My goal is where's the next next attack. coming from? >> Yeah. So, okay, just last two questions. on this. The one is who would be the. toughest to talk to would be you think. >> I think he might be the toughest for me.

>> because I'm a a white female blonde. Maybe maybe people surprise you. >> Yeah. >> You don't know who people are. You don't. know what's going on. But I think he. might be the toughest. >> And. >> cuz you know what too? He's willing to. die. for what he believes in. He's willing to. die because that's what this is premise. on death. I will die for my cause. This. is a deep deep ideology, a deep belief. This was for himself, right? This is. he's abusing girls, he's dealing drugs,

he's making money, right? This guy's. just got psychopath, right? Issues. >> No one's willing to die for. >> this guy's willing to die for what he. believes in. This is a deep faith. This. is harder. >> And what one mistake you could make with. each one of them? one one mistake an. interrogator could make which will just. blow up the entire interrogation. >> You say something that isn't true. You. make an assumption. >> like you you said with him the moment.

you tell him something personal that you. were there in the building it would just. blow it up everything because you you've. made it personal made. >> I would never bring up 9/11 my personal. experience never. Never. >> Yeah. So that's the biggest mistake you. can make with them. Guys, what would be the mistake an. interrogator could could make which will. blow up the entire interrogation? >> The one thing you don't want to do. It's like how could you do this? I. started making them feel like if you're. like I can't believe you. You sexually. assaulted all those girls. You abused.

You brought these girls. Who does that? What kind of sick person are you? It's. just game over. You have to leave your. ego out of the room. And sometimes. people can't. And like no matter what he. tells you, you have to accept it. You're. not agreeing. I'm accepting. And you also have to not show it in your. face. If you show disgust in your face, Raj, he's not going to talk to you. He's. going to filter what he says. He's going. to stop talking alto together. Your goal. is to get information. Your goal is not. to be the judge and jury. The goal is to.

be a neutral slate. that they can each talk to. You have to. bring the version of you that they need. to open up and for you to get. information. It is not about you. Most. often people bring themselves and you. should not bring yourself. >> I don't matter. The victims matter. So I need to find. out what he was doing and how he did it. I also need to find out who else. parttook in this because there has to be. justice because it's the right thing to. those victims. And you also want to make. sure other you're assuming he's the only.

guy that's doing this. How do you know? How do you know there's not another guy. that's doing this and he knows about. them? I want to know. >> I want to know who else they're talking. to. You get enough people, they get if. you know how to talk to people and they. start to talk about other people, it's. like give me information. Uh talk talk. Which is ironic. I hate to talk. I do it. for a podcast, but in real life, I don't. like to talk. >> I like to be quiet and listen. You learn. more. You learn more. So with all these.

people, the biggest mistake you can do. is judge them and show it in your face. and anything in life when you when. people feel judged and it can be hard. especially in personal relationships. where you want to look at someone and be. like what the are you thinking what. are you doing are you crazy but the. minute you do that you lose them it's. hard. >> true. >> it's hard I think personal relationships. are harder these guys not so much cuz I. can detach. >> you know you while we were doing the. briefing you said something very. interesting you said it's the worst time.

to be a world leader. >> why. >> I I think so. Here's the thing. When you. meant two things. When you meant to harm. a world leader, like for example, the. president of the United States, if you. went to harm him or you wanted to voice. harm, there's only a couple of ways you. could do it. You could you had to. physically show up somewhere to harm. him. Um you would have to write a. letter. >> Mhm. >> Cuz people write letters. Um or you. would have to phone it in. And so that.

level of contagion of hate was kind of. isolated. So now you move to social media. where everybody has a voice. Everybody. and anybody have a voice. You've given. everybody a megaphone. And I do think. not everybody I think we've shown as. humanity like we're not responsible and. accountable enough uh to have this. And. I mean this across the board even some. politicians I read things I'm like why. are you you're you're a leader. Why. would you write such a thing? And this. is across the board. Um this is one side. versus another. It's very sometimes.

disappointing when I see the things. people write. So, but what happens is, think of it this way. You're in a mob. It's a mob, but it's an online mob. And. so, when you see hate here, hate here, hate here, narratives, it it's. infectious. And so, people now jump on. this bandwagon. Half the time they don't. know what they're reading is true. And. even having worked in government, I. can't tell you how many times it would. either be people would come to me with. their conspiracy theories or theories or. tell me things that I knew factually.

were not true. Sometimes I couldn't say anything and. I'm thinking, "Wow, they just they they. whatever they read they think is true.". And so hate is infectious. So if you. keep reading like this world leader is. horrible, that world leader is horrible, this is happening and and and people. just write whatever then. it it. does not just create more hate. What it. does is people think that this world. leader, this person's a horrible person. and the world would be better if I got.

rid of them. And so now they think that. what they're doing or if they try to. cause harm, it's justified. I'm doing. something good in the world. Look at all. these people writing all these hateful. things. I'm going to get rid of this. person. And they don't realize that. there's human beings can justify and. sell anything to themselves. >> Yeah. I I did criminal polygraphs crimes. and I would sit across people and they. would do some some crimes were big.

sometimes were small but no matter what. crime it was I am telling you Raj I. think 99.9% of the time they sold it to. themselves I know I did this but I did. it because of X Y and Z you can justify. anything you can justify hurting another. human being. >> whether emotionally or physically if you. want to sell it to yourself you will I. had one it was a bank employee a person. who worked in the bank and they were. stealing money from the bank. Most fraud. in banks half of it probably half of it. happens from within the bank and this.

person was stealing money because so I'm. interviewing them and I'm like hey you. know tell me about you know you taking. that money and after some time the. person finally says yes I took the money. cuz I was doing the polygraph I was. interviewing them and they're like. listen yeah but it's not my fault I took. the money it's their fault and so I'm. like please please explain well they. left the money out they didn't secure. the money when you get money when the. money of the bank supposed to be secured. in this location. They should have. cameras. They should lock it up. Uh but.

they didn't do that. They left the money. out. There were no cameras in the area. So clearly they don't care about their. their customers money. So if they cared, they'd lock it up, not leave it out. there. So it's their fault I stole the. money. If you care about that money, lock it up. But to me, they don't care. about the money. They didn't care if I. took it. That's how they justified it. That's how they sold it to themselves. So people do that consistently. Now, when it comes back to threats, people. can justify why they would want to hurt. or harm a world leader because there's.

plenty of negative things to read. >> Um, the other thing is what's becoming a. problem, especially with this current. environment, people now post their. threats. So, if you're doing protection, like one. of the things the Secret Service has to. do is they have to look at a threat and. then say, is this credible? Is it not? And do I have the manpower to send to go. talk to this person? So think about now. all the people writing these hate not. just hateful things but I want to kill. or I want to take out right do I.

[snorts] have enough people all over the. country to send to to go interview this. person and if I interview this person um. I have to make a decision are they truly. going to cause harm or not are they a. threat or not because there are times. where you're like all right I don't. think there's anything here but then. that person goes and does something and. now you're in trouble. because you didn't deem it a credible. threat. It is very hard. So now you're. not just chasing people that show up, people that write letters, or people.

that make calls. Now you have to go. through all these social media feeds. You have to work with the social media. companies and call up X and say, "Hey X, um, Big Guns wrote this comment that. they want to take out the president. Can. you please release to me. >> who Big Guns is?" the the handle big. guns. >> Uh where are they located? I need to go. interview and find this person and is ex. going to give that to you because. there's privacy issues. So the the it's.

a horrible environment to be in. >> Well, here's last three questions which. I ask every guest. Okay. One is when. have you felt the most powerless in your. life? Probably. I think 911 was probably the the day I. felt very power powerless because I was. at the World Trade Center and it's where. we worked and you're watching thousands. of people die and you can't do anything.

specifically when. I remember I was standing by uh the. Vessie Street, the Westside Highway, and. that's when both towers were on fire, and there were people, you could see, they don't show it now in the news, but. you could see people in the holes waving. stuff. And there was a lot of people, a. lot. And you see them there, and they're. all the way up there, and you don't know. how to get to them. and they started.

jumping. They would just jump. And you're literally watching people. choose to jump rather than burn. And there's nothing you can do. And you. feel like absolutely worthless. That human beings are dying and you. can't do anything other than watch them. die. That's That was sad. That's. worthless.

How did you overcome that? Cuz that sight must have given you. nightmares for months. >> You overcome it one, you know, like I. have this saying, I'm not that special. And I anytime I begin to feel sad or cuz. we're all human. I always tell myself, I'm not that special. There's somebody. who's got it worse than me, is going. through harder things than I am, and I'm. not that special. Cuz like when you. think you're special, you think your.

problems are special. You think your. pain is special. You think your. suffering is special. And I'm not. The. other thing is there were a lot of more. people that lost there were people that. lost more than I did on that day. So I. always remind myself of that. I remind. myself that I lived and others did not. And so I promised myself that if I would. live through it, which I did, I would. live a a good life. When I say good. life, um, you know, I chased meaning. over money. And not that money is bad. I.

believe in wealth and and and all that. stuff. I think it's a good thing. But I. I promised myself that if my time came. again cuz I was lucky. I wasn't killed. I could have been. It was moment where I. was I probably should have died and I. did not. And I promised myself, you. know, if I live through this, I'm going. to live a meaningful life so that when I. go the next time, cuz next time's going. to come, I'm ready to go. So I I I chose. to look at it as a as a blessing. >> See, you have.

you have protected people, you have. gathered information, you have. interrogated people in your life, you. have lied for living. >> I'm a good liar. >> You're a good liar, right? You've caught. people lying. You've protected. presidents and you've served the. country. You've done so many things. To. be successful at what you do, what is. the cost that you personally paid? Pain. You got to be good at taking pain. Pain.

That's it. Pain. If you're good at. eating. if you're good at the world and and life. being hard, you're going to be fine. You'll be successful. I don't care how. smart you are, how skilled you are. None. of that matters. You must be resilient. You must have a pain tolerance. Pain I. you can sit and wallow in it. And I'm. not saying that sometimes we're like, "Oh my god, I can't believe this. happened to me." Uh I it and you can, but you're going to get stuck. Bad.

things happen to everybody all the time. It's the people that keep moving. You. have to keep moving. And and also, you. know what I'll say to people? When. something terrible happens to you, it. doesn't mean it's not terrible. Please. don't make it an excuse. Well, this bad. thing happened to me and that's why I. did this. This bad thing happened to me. and that's why I'm stuck here. It's. still a choice. You you and I say it not. to make people feel bad, but to to to. let you know like you can choose. Don't let anybody make you think like.

and I think sometimes in an effort. sometimes it's like we the narrative. becomes a little bit like oh this bad. thing happens to you that's why you. behave this way and then now people. think oh I am stuck here and it's like. you're not you're not so that's where. that victim thing comes in I'm a victim. of this this person did that I always. always always anything bad happens to me. or anything negative I always ask myself. what role did I play in this. [snorts] because when I do that, I never.

blame anybody else. Even when people. wrong me, we're all going to get wrong. I always look at what could I have done. differently because when I do that, I. bring the power back to me. I'm in. charge. I I I have power to change my. circumstance. But when this guy was a. jerk to me or that person talked about. me or this person did this bad thing to. me, this person lied to me or this. person. manipulated me, I I am powerless. So I guess it's two things. One is be. able to look at yourself and say, "How.

am I responsible here? And what can I do. differently?" Cuz that makes you. powerful. It doesn't mean you blame. yourself. Uh-uh. Uh- uh. It means you I. have the ability to change this. And the. two is withstanding the bad stuff. If. you can withstand the pain, it's pain. tolerance. Have great pain tolerance, you'll be. fine. But it's people that don't have. good pain tolerance that they just they. become annihilated. But does that make. you numb? Is the cost of surviving in.

your career is becoming numb. Not feel. pain at all. >> No, you're resilient. You don't not. feel. You feel. >> and you. >> It just doesn't crush you. It doesn't crush you. It's not that you. don't feel anything. You feel for every. I would feel for people I arrested. There were people I felt bad for that I. arrested. I couldn't not arrest them. So, I was kind to them or respectful to. them. I would make sure they ate or fed. them. Or sometimes I would ask people, I. would tell people, I have to arrest you. And this was with non-violent crimes. Do.

you want me to show up at your house or. your work, or do you want to show up to. my office? I'll give you a choice. And. these were people that I knew I could. track them. So, I would give people a. choice. Do you want to self-surrender? It's called self-surrender. Do you want. me to come find you? What do you What. would you like? So, I I I was I'm a. human being. I don't have to be a jerk. in life. like I feel um I just I can you. can feel and still do it. People think. like oh I don't want to feel bad. I feel. bad about many things. I feel shame. about many things. I feel guilt about.

many things. I suffer like everybody. else. I just I still experience it but I. keep moving. What do they say? You know progress no. matter how slow is still progress. It's. not about not feeling. That's why. sometimes people think like I want to. forget that this happened to me. I want. to forget the pain. Why? Why? It's a. when you feel bad, it means you're a. good human being. >> Agreed. Agreed. Well, thank you so much.

for coming here, spending time with us. and teaching us about so many things. Thank you. >> Hi. >> Hi. >> Hello. Nice to meet you. Good to meet. you. This is. >> Thank you for having me on. At that time. you wouldn't have seen like the real. India, right? You would be on duty. You. would be on I mean. >> yeah I mean you're the country. >> Yes. I mean sometimes like when you if. you get some downtime but again you're. in that bubble. >> so you don't get to really go too far.

like you have to stay with the group in. a sense. >> Exactly. And then that I'm assuming in. every country would be same like the. nice hotel everywhere it's the same. thing. You do you stay usually near them. or where they stay. [music]. >> Yeah. >> Which is obvious. Yeah. And then also. though for safety reasons too. And let. me think about this if I can share this. [music]. Bathrooms sometimes are used as hard. rooms. They're called the rooms where. you can tactically [music] fight. So you're looking at as a bathroom.

I'm looking at it as. bathrooms are great places [music] to. stage a fight. >> to protect because there's there's one. way in, one way out. So, if I'm going to. have my protectee, I'm going to throw. the him in there [music] and that. doorway is the only way in and out and. that's going to be my fighting stance. So, that might have been their hard. room. >> Thank you for watching this episode till. the end. We would love to know what you. liked or disliked about this episode and.

which guests you would like to see on. the show. Let us know in the comments. Your feedback help us improve and make. every episode a little better. I'll see. you next time. Until then, keep figuring. out.