He Built India's Biggest Car Selling & Purchasing Platform |Cars24| Vikram Chopra -FO102 Raj Shamani

The misconception that most people have or that's sort of portrayed, In common narrative is that there is only education in IIT. Even politics for that matter, right? Hostile elections, institute elections, they used to become a very serious matter. You have to go to each and every room and campaign. I have done this. I have gone room by room and campaigned and literally got interrogated, dragged, whatever, right? Why should they vote for you? Who are you? What will you do? Where are your manifestos? Where are your promises? Like very serious stuff. Actually, I was talking to my friends, that in Pathan, you know,

What like physique at that age, what he has done. Like first reaction was, from multiple people was, he must have taken steroids. You met Dhoni, and Dhoni has invested in you, right? And he happened to be a close associate with you guys. Yeah. Tell me, What is the most admirable thing about India? The thing that strikes me every time is, ♪♪♪. While Mehul and I were exploring ideas,

I remember, you know, we happened to meet a friend of ours, like rather an acquaintance of ours, he had a car dealership. Okay. So he was cribbing that my dad has put me in my car dealership and is not letting me do my work. And he is asking me to make a used car. So I said, make it, what's the problem? He said, there is no problem, there are no cars. He said, there are no cars in the dealership. So how do I make this? Like, you know, I can sell cars, but there are no cars. So I started asking, why don't I get cars, etc. So there was no answer.

He said, it is very difficult to get a car because it comes from the customer. Now the customer wants to know where he is selling it. Sometimes he sells it to the local mechanic, sometimes to the dealer, sometimes he tells his guard. So you don't get a car. So then we said, okay, he is talking about supply. And when I told Mehul, I didn't like it. When I told him that I met him, he said, he said, it sounds like a supply problem, let's work on it a little. So we went to meet a dealer. We live in Gurgaon, so we went to meet a dealer in Gurgaon. And he came and we asked, sir, do you have a supply problem?

He said, no, no, there is no supply problem. You get my cars sold. Look, there are 10 cars here, you get them sold. If you have a customer, let me know. We were sitting there, talking for 15-30 minutes. A very nice guy offered us tea, etc. Then he gets a phone call, and he just leaves right then and there. He left suddenly. And there was a kid sitting there, Mehul, and I asked him, what happened to him? Where did he go all of a sudden? He was talking to us so nicely and giving us all download on the industry.

He said, sir, there must be some lead for the car. He went to get the car, or else the deal will be lost. So that struck us. He's not saying that, but his actions were mirroring what my friend was also saying. That supply is the problem. So then we got a little excited. Then we said, let's work on it a little more. Then we met some 5-10 dealers. Then we took a few days off. Then we sent a photo of our own cars. So we were left behind. Sir, where do you want to come and see the car? I'll be right there. So bad experience, but a very active, very actively chasing experience.

And I guess then by then we could connect the dots. This is what happens on classifieds as well. You put anything to sell, you get calls like crazy. You put your car, you'll get crazy calls. And you have no idea who's calling, right? So that led us to a conclusion that this is a problem. But then we thought, the seller has to sell the car. He needs money. It was clear to us that no one will leave the car with us.

That if you leave the car and then ask for money, it's not like that. Give me the money, take the car, don't give me the rest of the knowledge. That was like very clear feedback from consumers, right? So we said, how will we buy the car? We don't have the money to keep the inventory. And we don't even know how to price the car, right? So, we thought that we'll do this, We'll check the customer's car, take some photos, post them on WhatsApp,

And buy some time from the customer to communicate the price. Because we thought there's no other way. And if we get the price, then we'll buy it, and hopefully it'll sell at that price. So, Golf Course Extension Road is an area in Gurgaon, which has developed a lot now. In 2015, it was completely empty. So, we went there, because the petrol pump there, we went to one or two main road petrol pumps. So, they said, there's no space there, what are you doing here, it'll cost money. We said, there's no money.

So, we went there, the petrol pump is fine, no one comes there, it's empty, you can sit here. So, Mehul did some math, that out of 40-50 people who come to fill petrol, there's one seller, right? That's just how the numbers work, of the math of car sellers. So, out of 10, one person sells a car at any point in a year. 4 million cars are sold, 40 million cars are there. So, out of 10, he's selling one, in a year. So, in a month, he's selling one out of 40.

He did some math on gut feeling. Yes, he did a simple math, that if he meets 40-50 people, then he'll get one seller. So, when we met 200-250 people, we started getting sellers. And those who are in the mood to sell cars, surprisingly, they had no objection. Take photos, take everything. We took those photos and started posting them on WhatsApp. And a lot of dealers started coming. They were giving the price right away. They said, you took the photos well, I saw the car, I understood. Here's the price, you tell me where to pick up the car from. So, this was very striking.

Because generally, what would you think? He's a used car dealer, how will he buy a car online? Why would he buy a car for 2-3 lakhs? But, they were so hungry for cars. They were ready, you just tell me the car. And I'm ready to give the price on the car after seeing this photo. You tell me, when do I have to transfer the money? So, there's no problem of demand. There's no problem of demand. So, that is what, we got super excited. And after that, we went to that petrol pump. Then we asked a lady who used to manage there, to give us some space to sit.

She said, look, you can't give it officially. I'm going on a two-month summer holiday. I'm not there, you can use my room for two months. So, we got a small room there. There was an evaluator, a guy and Mehul. They used to sit all day and ask the customers who used to come and check the car. Meanwhile, I made a Facebook page. And we took a small office space. There, we called 3-4 sales people, called the dealers and sent them WhatsApp.

Sir, I just WhatsAppped you, tell me the price. Because, we were trying to do it as fast as possible for the customer. So, that's how it started. Then slowly, we made a dealer app. We said, we can make an app for WhatsApp. And that was the power of being in stealth. What I was telling you. When we made the app, I can tell you, for years, Nobody believed that any dealer would ever be using any kind of app. Just absolutely no one ever believed it.

They said, there's no chance. You're talking about a used car dealer. The one who sits all day. They're using an app and buying a car on the app without even looking at it. It's just not possible. So, our general perception was that CARS24 must have an inventory of 5-6 months. Right? All these cars are being sold offline. A lot of people have invested. They won't be able to make money doing all this. It's just not feasible in terms of Euro-economics. But the reality was exactly opposite.

We had zero sales team to our on-board dealers. As I said, the demand was not a problem. Everything was happening online. Right? There was no physical viewing of the car. Cars, we... The seller's car, basically, we still do it. The seller's car comes, we inspect it. If you want to sell a car, we'll inspect it. We'll come to your house and inspect it. We have an auction app. We upload the details of the car on it. There's a bidding in real-time. And the final price that comes from that bidding, for example, if the price is 100 rupees.

From that 100, we cut our cut to 5 rupees, 10 rupees, whatever it is. We offer the rest to the seller. If the seller says yes, we transfer the seller's money to the account. We pick up the car and send it to the dealer. Till then, the dealer transfers the money to us. It all happens back to back. What are you saying? You're saying it like it's vanilla. I don't believe it. So we have built a online auction house of our used cars in India now online auctions.

Happens for cars everywhere in the world. But car industry in US and Europe is much older than in India. Especially the used car industry. So India is one place where they didn't make it offline. But we made it online. So the same thing that is now being migrated from offline to online. We went directly online in India. We made it online first. They say that in India, because we didn't have such a good infrastructure and industries,

Because of it India moves four steps forward. Leaps... We leapfrog everywhere. We jump everywhere. We don't move a step. Because we don't have a single technology. For example, broadband was a technology, right? So, the internet broadband never scaled. So, the phone internet directly scaled a lot. Correct. Or laptops for that matter, right? We went straight to mobile phones. Our laptops couldn't even penetrate.

Nothing was ever made on it. So, similarly with cars. Because we didn't have an offline auction market. Correct. Because of this, we came directly online and became very big online. Correct. Very interesting. Okay, let's break it down. You told me very simple things, okay? But it sounds very fascinating and very hard to believe that the problem is of demand. Talk to any businessman, talk to any founder. Their problem is demand. Yeah. They don't even talk about supply, right? Until unless you talk to a very seasoned player.

Like when you go to tier 2, tier 3. Correct. So, if you talk to a seasoned entrepreneur who has been running a business for 25-30 years. Correct. Their problem is the goods do not come. So, I sell as much as I can. Correct. The problem of all the founders is that there is no demand. Correct. And that's, and that's, they're also right. Because what's very unique about my industry is that all of its supply also comes from the consumer. So usually a business is B to B or B to C. On the left side you always listen to B, right? On the left side you never listen to C.

We have C to B or C to C. Right? So it's, but on the left, on the right it can be B, which is a dealer. Or on the right it can be C, which is a consumer. That I bought a car, either sold it to the dealer or sold it to the consumer myself. But left hand, 95% is consumer. Which again is by the way, not true in many other geographies. Because what happens outside, there are rental cars. Taxi or private car doesn't necessarily have differentiation.

Like, Yellow plate, white plate, etc. So you have other sources of cars that you get. In India, they don't do leasing of cars or rental companies are not that popular. And then you can't make a yellow car into a white car and vice versa. Right? It's pretty prohibitive. And then there are maintenance issues. So practically all the cars, until you and I don't sell the car, there will be no supply.

So to solve the supply side, you need a consumer business, which is so counterintuitive to think about. It's the opposite, very opposite. You have to go to the consumer for the supply as well. For the supply, you always think about the business. That I'll get a contract manufactured, I'll go to the distributor, I'll go to the dealer, I'll go to the OE. But you don't think that you have to go to the consumer for the supply as well. So it's very unique. And I think for recycled goods, this is a unique characteristic.

Because you're not a new good business. You're a recycled or a used good business. Wow. So many questions on these. But first, let's finish your first half of the loops, okay? Yeah. The first was your IIT Bombay. Yeah. So, tell me one mindset that, Why is it that all the big startups are being made by majorly IITs? So, in IITs, is it that everyone is talking about start-ups or mindset? Why do you think is the reason IITians are just building start-ups?

Did you have that mindset? Actually, when I was in college in 2002-2006, Right. There were enough people who were working on start-up ideas at that time. In IIT Bombay, the entrepreneurship cell was already there at that time, Which is way ahead of time now if you think about it. Way ahead of time, Because India's first unicorn was in 2014-15. Correct.

So, I mean, start-up dreams started after 2014-15. So, in fact, there are many people who were already working in start-ups at that time. The students were already doing it. They were tinkering with the ideas, But it wasn't like people were starting as soon as they left. But there was a small gang in Powai. It was small, but it started to become a start-up gang. But largely, it was like, do a job, earn some money. But now it has increased a little more relative to then.

But I think their activity had started in, at least in IIT Bombay, where I went. I started seeing some activity already. Now it has become Silicon Valley, our small one. Now everything is there. So when I was in college, the internet had reached our rooms. Okay. But reaching to the rooms doesn't mean that you have a computer in the room. So if there are 10 rooms in the wing and one has a computer, Then his life would actually get ruined because everyone would be lying in his room.

Right? Now he is sleeping. I said, okay, you keep sleeping. No problem, I have to use the computer. But before that, we used to go to the computer lab downstairs for the computer. So, but now, you know, it has changed dramatically. But why do you think is the reason that IT is a more risk takers, For example, or just like driven as a mindset that we will make startups too. I am not sure that the proportion of IITians is more.

I think there are as many non-other colleges as there are. But like I can, like you know, but there is a different misconception. I think misconception that most people have or, That sort of portrayed in common narrative is that there is only studies in IIT. Right? Everyone goes and opens books. Because those who have reached there must have studied a lot. So even after going there, you must be doing the same. The reality is exactly opposite of that. Right? I think for most people who have gone to IIT will tell you.

That that's probably first time they realized that there is a world outside of books. And especially when you go to like a place like Bombay or Delhi and bigger cities, for sure, You realize that it is a very big world and you can do a lot. So the sports scene was very active at IIT. Cultural scene was super active. So inter-IIT sports, inter-hostel sports were taken very seriously. If you don't play, like somebody like me who didn't play, you have to know how to cheer. How can you not know how to cheer? Right?

I mean, you are like anti-hostel, anti-national, if you will, equivalent. How can you not know how to cheer? Similarly, a lot of people were very passionate about robotics. There used to be a tech fest. So it still happens. There was a very serious competition that you should make your robot. So you know that environment, like I made a robot. Right? It is such an environment that even you feel like, why can't I make something? Right? We are making the robot do competitions, Like who can play the ping-pong better or which robot can raise better.

Simple, basic stuff. But nevertheless, very interesting. So I think just the diversity of things people try their hand at. And then not only this, even politics for that matter, right? Hostel elections, institute elections used to become a very serious matter. You have to go to each room and campaign. I mean, I have done this. I've gone room by room and campaigned and literally got interrogated, dragged, whatever. Right? Why should they vote for you? Who are you? What are you going to do? Where is your manifesto? Where are your promises?

Like very serious stuff. You are campaigning for a month. So... You campaigned again? Yes, yes. Go to each room and like, You know, like across hostel 1 to hostel 13. There were 13 hostels during my time. Which has, some of them are undergrad hostels, but some of them are women hostels. Some of them are postgraduate hostels. So you go to each room, you know, make your own local alliance there. Who's popular in that hostel. And that guy will then take you to every, To meet the more important people in the hostel who have an influence on what the hostel might vote for.

So it was a very serious, intense atmosphere. So I think that definitely, for me personally, Made, got me into a lot of exploration mode that there is, There are many things beyond academics, to explore. That I had not explored for a variety of reasons while I was in Rai Bareilly. That's a good answer. Because I think that is one of the biggest reasons that,

A lot of big colleges, big institutes worldwide have a lot of risk takers. Because in those colleges and institutes they see so many things that. I... And you know, at the end of the day, When you are in college, the definition of success is that I become cool, People praise me and I get some recognition and some money, right? And these colleges tell you that if you win a dance competition, you will get money, You will become cool and you will get recognition.

If you become a politician, you will get it. If you win a sport, you will get it. So, I made robots, I made a start-up, right? So, I got to see so many things that if I play in any of them, So I will win, that's when you're more driven towards that, okay, Yes, Why I have to study Maths, I can do this too, Correct, correct. They were a bunch of my batchmates, my seniors, they were ribbed. I mean, they lived in college, ate the food there, with basic nutrition.

You know, you're a bodybuilder, you're ribbed. Right? I mean, in college, right? I can't imagine, like, how did they do that? And at that time, there was no appreciation. It was just that, bro, you have to stay away from them. If they hit you, you'll fall. So everyone was scared that you don't want to mess with them. But now when I look back, I think, how did they do that? So they were all kinds of very, very interesting people around. But to your point around risk, you know, Like, for me personally, look, as a middle-class person,

I never had much savings in my account. So even when I started a startup, or went to the first startup, Obviously, the salary fell from what I earned at McKinsey and Sequoia. Simply because I also wanted to lead by example. Like, if you have money in your bank account, even today, Right? I don't want to be a very high salary taker or the highest salary taker in the company. It just doesn't make any sense to me because my wealth creation is there truly from my equity.

Yeah. So long-term, if I don't think about it, So how do I set an example for the others? Right? Right. But at that time, it was harder because. Genuinely, I didn't have money in my account. Whatever I had, it was savings, you know. Personal liabilities, family commitments were being used. And then Wharton was a big expense. Yeah. I mean, 1-1.5 crores were spent at that time. It was a huge amount. All the savings were over. So, when I came back, I didn't have money. But my thought process was, if this doesn't work... So, will I not be able to earn so much by doing any job...

...that I can live in a 1BHK apartment and eat a decent meal? That won't happen. Unless, you know, something really terrible happens. You know, physically something happens or whatever, right? If I ignore those sort of, you know, circumstances... ...that you can't really account for, I should be fine right? So, then the only thing is, keep your ego in check. And don't get stuck in comparison with others. That if I didn't do it, I would have become a partner in VC fund or consulting.

So, why did I waste time? That is ego, emotion, random guilt trip. It's of no use. It's somehow that naturally, I was fine with it. So, when I did FabFurnish for 3 years, after that... ...as I told you, we were in stealth for 3-4 years in CARS24. It was a long period. 7-8 years passed. I never cared about what other people were doing. How they were doing it. They were ahead of me. They were left behind, right?

Like the appraisal season is going on these days, right? Or in companies, right? So, I see in my own company that people are so obsessed about just comparing... ...or thinking about that comparison. And I don't scold them for not thinking like that. Because it's human nature, man. They will compare. But it's also important to control it. And people who don't are able to control it, they make themselves miserable, right? Because you're constantly just comparing. But you can't live that life.

I remember reading that quote by Naval Ravikant. You know, whenever you are envious of someone, imagine you want to be whole of that person? You can't be like, I just want this part. I want your podcast. I don't want anything else, right? I want your business. I don't want anything else. Everything else is good for me. It's not like that, right? Then are you ready to be the whole of that person? Most of the time, I think, almost. Anyway, the answer is always no. Yeah. So, this is what I keep explaining to the team. Like our appraisal season is going on. So, I tell them, okay.

I understand that you have an appraisal of how much my colleague is earning in another function. But don't let it sort of just consume you entirely. Because life is more long term than that. True, true. You know, on a funny note on this thing, When I read that quote from Naval and I was like, there must be someone who i can hold on to. I was thinking and I thought very hard. I thought, can I be, let's say, Jeff Bezos?

And then I said, no, I don't want such a miserable personal life. I mean, my personal life should be good and my relationship should be long. Then I thought, okay, can I be PM Modi? I was like, no, man, 18 hours, like no life, even at 70s, that's not possible. Right now it sounds good. Okay. That's like Shahrukh Khan. Yeah. Like done. My life will be like SRK. Yeah. Everything is good in that. Yeah. Okay. Because Shahrukh Khan, sir, if you look at him, everything is right. I want everything, at least from the far. Yeah. And then recently his son's thing happened.

I was like, no, I can't do it. I can't, I can't see my son getting in trouble and doing things. So I feel when you dig deeper, even from the outside perspective, forget insider, exactly outside perspective. When you dig deeper and try to find out five, six things, You're like, no, bro. Answer is no. I cannot, cannot actually be that person. Absolutely. And this is so powerful, right? Because the more you get inward, the more mental peace you get. Life is, you know, comparing to other come,

Like for me also, to try and keep comparing to other companies is futile. Because I have no idea what they are doing, how they are doing. So focus only on learning from them. What are you talking about, you never see the competition. Yes we see the competition. But, you know, I think the nature, not just for me, But even I see around is that you start when you see something bad about someone. So first of all, you do chest thumping. Look at our customer experience, look at ours,

We have less losses , how efficiently we run marketing, right? I think that chest thumping is very dangerous. Because what happens is, while it's important to celebrate or sort of, You know, your good work, But when you are just comparing and contrasting and then doing chest thumping, Then it makes you complacent, right? At the same time, It's very easy to deny what others are doing well. Right? It's very easy to deny, right? Do you know that it has grown by 50% in the last three months?

No, no, no, the numbers have gone up. Right. They are spending so much money in IPL, So it's okay, It happens. They give a lot of discounts. It's very easy to be in denial. Because when you are in denial about what's not good, What you don't want to hear, then you are not learning. You are saying that I am learning. You are comparing good things, in which you are better, you did chest thumping, In which you are bad, you explained a good answer, That because of this reason, that is not right, Vikram.

Then you have not genuinely learned. So, we internally at CARS24 try to focus only on things where others are better than us, right? And if they come and try to tell us how we are better, then stop. First tell me on which things we are not good. And what is your assessment on how we can be better. Then we will come to the things on which we are good. So, no one dares to come to me and do chest thumping, that we are better at these things.

Because that I think breeds complacency. And trust me, you know, the first reaction when you hear something you are not able to do yourself is, It's too good to be true. This can't be. He must have done something, right? You were taking Shahrukh Khan's example, right? Recently, I was talking to my friends, that in Pathan, what physique at that age, what he has done. First reaction from multiple people was, he must have taken steroids. And I was like, how do you know he must have taken steroids? Why are you saying that? How is it not possible that he has worked hard to make this body, right?

So, the first reaction is that I am not able to do it, so someone has hacked it. Someone has hacked it, he has not made it genuine. But it doesn't matter how he has made it. What can you learn from it is more important. That is so true. What a spot on thing you've said, now I'm stealing it. I'm going to say a lot. Because you know, earlier I used to think that people do this only in India. That they look at others and the one who is more successful than you, you get irritated with him. In a way. Because he has always taken shortcuts.

He has made a body with steroids. He has stolen taxes and earned money. He has done something by giving bribes and made his business grow. He has spent a lot on marketing. He must have taken funding from outside. That's why he made money. Otherwise, he wouldn't have been able to start a business. But then I started looking around the world. It's the same in the whole world. You go anywhere. Go to America, go to UK. Right? In every country, you will see that people who look at other people who are above them.

Or they are more successful in something. Looking at them, they feel that they have taken a shortcut. This can't happen. They talk nonsense. Right? In fact, I'll tell you recently, right? I heard this rumor about me from a relative of mine. I mean, a relative of mine. He is talking about me. To my own cousins. So my cousins say look, he has grown a lot in 3-4 years. He is doing a great job. It's such a good thing that the child of your house is doing this. They praised me.

No, no. What happens there, you don't know. He did this. He did that. You don't know what he is doing from inside. And I heard a rumor. That 90% of the people who own me have given me all the money. I'm just a facade. I'm just an employee, I'm seen outside. Internally, it's someone else's propaganda that I'm promoting. What? Yeah. But that's true. When we compare ourselves to others, we do a lot of chest thumping.

More than learning what's bad and what's good, we do a lot of chest thumping. So I have tried a few things in the company, like I do interviews with candidates. So first of all, I ask them what is wrong with CARS24. And when you ask this question, people feel that it's a trick question. Right? That if I say something wrong, how do you be candid in front of somebody you don't even know? Forget even if you know.

But I start with that and naturally, as you can imagine, People start by answering what is good. I said, let it be good. Because that's in the past, what can we do better? So it does take like few minutes to get people to be comfortable that it's not a trick question. If you, I will not shoot you for saying something suddenly. I will not turn from a nice guy to an angry guy. How can you dare say that something like that, But I've tried to cultivate that, uh, through interviews, uh,

You know, first thing I ask him, what was your company doing well that we are not doing well, right? As opposed to saying, I'm sure you have found your perfect paradise. Tell me, what you did well in that company, what we don't do. Right. What was better in the first five days? Something will be better. It can't be, you know, everything here is better or everything there was bad, whatever. So, and that, I think we have managed to create some level of culture where people are very critical. Right. They are always constantly, uh, criticizing each other for this is not good.

In customer testimonial see the photo, it looks so bad, let's take the photo properly. You know, even that level of downside is at the same time is that I get this feedback, yeah, I don't celebrate or recognize good things that Vikram does well. You should have said it for him too. What is this all the time? You just keep making us to tell that it's not good. You keep looking for yourself, But you know, so, you know, that's the balance I am trying to find for a year now.

You i am also congratultuing them for good stuff. They said that when we send you good stuff, you ask four questions on that too. You need some level of chest thumping, But Like everything in life, right? Excess of anything is bad? Excess of just criticizing yourself and being over-critical is also bad. You have to celebrate your wins. And if you are good at something, it's fine too. I feel like you're my elder brother. And I tell you exactly the same question.

I'll show you WhatsApp chat right after this. I'm hiring a new person. I tell him, tell me three things. I make it very point-listical. I don't leave it so vague. Tell me three things that we are doing useless and that we should improve. Perfect. Like, you know, make me an assignment. And then I felt that when I ask only this, people usually don't tell me. So I said, do one thing, do three good things that we are doing, which we should keep doing, And do three bad things that we are doing. And I have never seen a good thing in an assignment. Yeah, correct.

I said, first look at this directly. What a point-out he has made. We know or don't know. Yeah, yeah. To make that. And same thing, my team members give me feedback. Yeah. That man, you don't even celebrate. Yeah. Why do you say everything in this? This has this problem. We can attend any metric, revenue metric. No, man, we can do this more on this. Correct. We can do growth metric. No, man, we have to do this now. I mean, my next goal, next thing, four questions are ready for the next thing.

So I think I got the same feedback a year and a half ago. And since then I have been trying that let's try a number. Let's cut a small cake. Let's go traveling together. Yeah, yeah. Wow. It's hardcore. Like, I mean, you could ask my whole team. And they'd be like, wow, bro, what are you talking about? Yeah, yeah. So I feel you give me, you give me validation. Okay, I'm not alone. A lot of people do it. We can improve.

I am also happy to know. I also got validation. Scope has to improve. Okay, Tell me about your McKinsey. Yeah. Recently I made a podcast with McKinsey's ex-alumni or employee or whatever. So I heard that McKinsey has a very common thing. And he didn't want to quote it. That who did it, so I'm not taking the name. And I'll tell you that when you're in your early 20s, 22-23 years old.

And if you focus on work-life balance at that time, Then there will be no work or life. So, what is your ambition? Choose one and work on it. Yeah. Right? There is no such thing as balance. Yeah. And he said that. Yeah. So, did you feel in your McKinsey years. That if we are very ambitious, then we have to work hard. Or what is the work-life balance? Like, how was your experience? Yeah. Yeah, a very interesting question,

Because I feel that the first McKinsey, Like undergrad students like me were hired only by IIT at that time, I don't know what happens now, But only by IIT, and in IIT also only top 4-5 IITs, not from the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th IIT. In that also they would come day 1, And there would be around 600-1000 students in the batch, they would pick only 1 or 2. So it's, so you know you have picked up people who are sort of,

You know, by design are now ready to compete, right, You have sort of put the team of 11 players, and they are not playing as a team, But they are playing literally against each other, So I think that at some level that competitive intensity is fairly high, right, And I don't think anybody has to push for that. That is self-driven only, because you know it's like you have reached, You have put yourself on a pedestal, you can't get down from it, You have to go up only,

So when you are on that staircase, and now the staircase is getting narrower and narrower, so you have to work harder. So that intensity was very high there. Personally for me, as I said, I was having fun in something else, So I am a little digressive that I went somewhere else, I went to Meethapur, so I don't know what the rest of the people are doing here, Because I, you know, for 2 weeks, Work was my life. And you know, once you go to Meethapur,

Like this is 2006, neither did there come so many blackberries, I didn't have it there, so my conversation was not only real-time. Like it is happening now, right, The Orkut had started coming, but still not, everything was the web, Mobile wasn't that much, so I was literally cut off only, Because if I used to go, I used to come once in 2 weeks, Because you know, it was 4 hours, one way to go, And come back and then take the flight, it will take whole day. So, but yeah, a lot of people by design are very, very inclined to work extremely hard.

And they used to put insane amount of hours, insane amount of hours, insane, extra, extra insane. Not extra only insane I mean, work or, you know, work or work. Interesting. Calls and calls and calls. At twelve o'clock in the night, get up at 7 o'clock or six o'clock and moved back. So I've seen enough people doing really hardcore work. Ha!

How much is the entry level salary when you entered? When I joined, I think our joining salary was 3-3.5 lakhs on the appointment letter. And there was a message on it, for the year. 3.5 lakhs? For the year. So you were in IIT Bombay. It was the same in 2006. But then I think they also realized that the inflation has increased. So it was 6.5 lakhs before joining. So we were very happy with the 6.5 lakhs salary for the year. So it was a month in 50 years. Yes, it was the same. But we were very excited.

It was a top job from college. And it was written in our appointment letter. Congratulations, you are among the 1% earning Indians. So when I read it for the first time, it was a shock. I reached 1% in this much. But you know, that's sort of the other side of the reality of our country. Above three lakh is one percent, right? Correct. But then after that, the jumps were fairly fast. I think, whatever like the job appreciation, salary appreciation had started happening.

Okay. And then you went to Sequoia. How much was the entry salary in Sequoia? It was not much in Sequoia. It was around 20. And this is which year? This is 2009. Okay, So it must be 2x now, what else? 2x, 3x entry. No idea. No idea. No idea. No idea. Till the time I left, I was 50. 50 lakhs... So how long did it take from 20 lakhs to 50 lakhs? In 2.5 years, it become 20 lakh to 50 lakh.

You joined at a salary of 20 lakhs and it was 50 lakhs in 2.5 years. Correct. It's good, man. You could have stayed there. It's okay to be a start-up. A lot of people who just want to earn money. Yeah. They can work really hard at a job and earn good money. Absolutely. I think to each their own, Even today,I know so many people who work very hard, I think for me, You know, and as I said earlier that McKinsey and Sequoia are great places. Because they have good colleagues, great work environment, etc. I wasn't enjoying it.

You know, going to that office, you know, There used to be times when I would be sleepy in a meeting. And I had to go to a washroom and, you know, splash water on my eyes to keep myself awake. So I was not, I'm not saying that work is boring. Work was boring for me because, you know, I didn't want to create slides out of something that I didn't understand. Yeah. So when I went to these factories and did things with my own hands. And, you know, interacted with operators, Then I used to think that now that I say something to them, I know what I'm saying.

So for me, learning happens by doing, not the other way around. Right. Some people can sort of learn without trying something out. I need a lot of practice. And I enjoyed that practice. So that's why, you know, I was gravitated. So even when I was at Sequoia, I didn't feel like I was an expert of any kind or had any authority to. comment on any startup's strengths or weakness and opportunities and threats or whatever. I can't do it. I don't know anything about that area.

So how can I do it? So I was naturally gravitated towards spending time with one company. So I thought I can do this. Because I can sit here all day and learn. Right. I sat with an accountant. I went with a sales person to their meets. So now give me that ground up. It takes a lot of time. But I'm learning. But that was like very personal. Yeah. So I enjoyed that more. Okay, so what did I see in Sequoia that you invested in just one startup, right? And that was Yellow Diamonds, Pratap Snacks.

And I know this because I'm from Indore. So, as soon as you said that Sequoia is in Indore, I was ike Indore, Sequoia, I know. And you said factory, I know it for sure. Amit and Rajesh, right? Yes, yes, yes. So, hard core. Small city, you know everything everywhere. Yes, and I was in consumer goods. My background is consumer goods. I was in the dishwasher detergent market. So, I used to see. Learning from each other. Exactly, very closely. How they are making their speeds. Why are they growing so fast? Why is it growing so fast?

How are they competing in the new category? Because everyone had a common sentiment at that time. That how we compet, Unilever's and let's say Parley's and PepsiCo of the world. And some were competing, Balaji, Haldiram, obviously, You know, there are many who reached a decent scale also. So yeah, first you fight with an international player, MNC, Then you fight with a national player, and you start from a small area and become a regional player. Like, for you, it was just a game.

In fact, this was one of the problem statements we were also trying to crack there. That what to do for those regions where we are not strong. So you are absolutely bang on with that. Yeah, so tell me, what did you see in the startup that you decided to invest in it? Because it's a very non-obvious choice. That you invest in a fund, a FMCG business when 12-15% is made alive. Like 12-15% your business will be made. It's not like an exponential business.

I think, you know, it was a very different time. Sequoia, while it's a tech fund, at that point, believe me or not, A lot of investments were happening in offline companies. Because this is 2009-2010, there is a small flipkart, A small snap deal is being made somewhere. So there were not many startups, right? And maybe that belief was not complete that how will it happen? In India, there is no internet broadband, there is no laptop, so we are sitting and waiting.

But when will this happen? Till then we are waiting, maybe we have arrived early in India. But okay, till then enough interesting companies are being made offline. So a lot of, this is not just one-off, there were many, You know, a lot of time was spent focused on just even finding good offline companies, public and private. So it was not that this was one-off, this was like a, You know, there was a thesis on finding... Which were those 1-2 companies, if you remember?

I mean, I'm not sure which ones are in public domain, But like Dr. Lal Path Labs, right? Whole Diagnostics, Whole pure offline business, Muthoot Gold Loan, Manapuram Gold, I think, so there are many, many examples. I think we had invested in hospitals also, then pharma companies, agri-companies, seeds companies, So there are a lot of different... There is a company in Delhi, I'm forgetting its name, Satya Paul, which makes saris, tie, saris, right?

So lots of different offline companies and there was a big list of offline portfolio. Of course, now it's, now there are, your hands are full with all kinds of interesting tech stuff. But mostly consumer facing. No, I think B2B was also there, But I was, as I said, I was barely understanding the word consumer, So I didn't even try, but it was more of a consumer.

If I have to take a guess, I may be wrong, But it was 70-80% of consumer. So what did you see in Yellow Diamonds? I think, if I remember, I mean, see, look, the hygiene test was passed, Which is numbers were growing fast. I think 25% plus growth, the profitability, healthy profits, They were able to defend themselves, You know, across cycles, they were managing good prices and factories, Seemed like, you know, good quality execution on that,

And most importantly, it came down to founders, right? The tenacity with which they were building, the amount of time, they had a failure, then they started again. So amount of time they had spent, how frugally they were building it, How frugal their own lifestyle was. I think all that played a big, big role. And I think it took us like six, eight months. Before that they had refused four times.

So Sequoia, we used to go look at companies that are not necessarily raising, right. Or in offline, there are many companies who do not even know, what you do, who you are. What is this venture capital. What is this. Right? So i remember we had gone to meet them, I think four or five times, six times, Just to explain them, who we are, what we are do. Why it might be a good idea for them to take the money, right?

Because they can grow faster.They can try new products. They can do experiments, etc. But it took, I think two years, one and a half to, I think for six, eight months for us to get them to warm up to the idea, Then another three, four months for us to then process the data and keep observing. And then another four, five months to conclude. So it was a fairly long process, even on that aspect. Interesting. So there was no specific aha moment that consumer goods man, This is why we need this space. I mean, why snack?

I think the bigger insight that we believed in at that point was that once the company... There are a lot of companies that get stuck at like 100 crore turnover, right? And that 100 to 1000 is like crossing the chasm. That you get stuck there. If you have crossed that, then there are signs that you can make something. But mostly at that time, now the numbers will be inflation adjusted, but you get stuck at 50, 70, 60.

So you have crossed 100 and reached 200, 300, 400. So you are in that breakout space. And if you are in that breakout, so with sort of capital and with assistance, You can sort of create a bigger play. That was the insight that we were chasing. And with that insight, not just Pratap, we went after a lot of companies, Who regardless of whether they wanted to raise or not, Obviously most of them didn't want to raise. We went to them with the same thing. That you are in that middle path where you have broken out.

And hence you have a potential to build a very large business. So don't take it more seriously than what you might be. You are running a family business. It is growing by 10%. Don't think like that. You actually have a big opportunity to create a big national level brand. At least that was the whole... No, that's true. A lot of, if you look at small family businesses, Or small consumer goods businesses, they become strong in the region. And then it becomes very difficult for them.

Because their region has a potential of 50-60-70 crores. After that it becomes very difficult to play in another state. And make it the same there too. So it becomes very, very difficult. Because in your state, you have an undue advantage. That your transportation costs less, your hiring becomes easier, Because you have connections, your distributors become your religion, community, friends. So it becomes very difficult to play in another state. So whatever they cross, I think that's a breakout point. Because they got the formula and the product is also accepted in other regions.

Because India is so diverse. Yes Correct. I guess you've been through that journey, so you know it inside out. And that's very interesting because usually you think, okay, I'll give you a discount. But you're saying that it won't be enough. You have to do good marketing. You need good promotion. You need a good team. You need good distribution. The goods should also reach on time. Everything you can't do at a scale. So you just go subscale. Very narrow, very narrow. So I think that helped me and that has become a thesis for my business. Obviously, it's slower, but it works really good. Correct.

So, I think a lot of people make this mistake, at least in consumer business, That I have written such a product that it will be number one in India. Bro, what are your chances of getting number one in India? How will you beat it? Let's say, if I want to build a car dealership, used cars. Yeah. I don't have the guts to go against CARS24. Like nothing. Correct. I have literally nothing to go against you. No, man. You're better capitalized. You have more experience. You have more insight.

Your team is better. You are a stronger founder. So, everything depends on how I go. But I know my neighborhood better than you. Correct. So, in my colony, where there are four streets, If someone needs a car, then they will take it from me. So, how can we build that? And you know this point you make around slower or faster. I have learned this from time to time that slower or faster is not an excuse for not being thoughtful. Because I have seen in my startup many times that we have.

It made trying to go fast as an excuse. That you have to go fast. But you don't know what you're doing. But you're running fast. But what, why, how is not clear. What the consumer wants is not clear. But you're running fast. Hmm. At that time, we are happy that we are hustling so much. But you end up spending, losing more time. You know, you take four steps forward, but then you go ten steps back. And then to backtrack and come back to the same point, it takes another one year.

You might have as well done thoughtfully and gradually. So, instead of trying to apply the lens of fast and slow, I now try to apply the lens after fighting a lot of battles, losing a lot of battles. Whether you are thoughtful or not. Right. At least, it's okay, not everything can be fleshed out. But at least there is a concept of Amazon, right? Is there a PR, FAQ sort of a document? Is there a two-pager, three-pager that has been debated? Have you thought about all the scenarios? Pros and cons of different approaches?

I don't know. Tell me. So, what Amazon, basically Amazon has this practice, Where they say that before you launch a service, like imagine pre-mortem. Imagine that the service has already been launched. So, how will you explain that to a journalist or a customer? What do you do for me? First, write it down properly. So, that becomes your starting point of creating the product. So, like they had to make Kindle. Kindle is an extreme example. When it's not made, you don't even know what to make.

So, they work backwards from that, what does the customer want? And they imagine that and they just iterate on that document for months, Or for a year probably, and then started working on it. Very interesting. That is interesting, you know. I like Amazon because there is an insight of Amazon which is said in one of their documentary. One of the senior Amazon officials, who has left Amazon now. He said that Amazon is not an e-commerce business.

Amazon is a disruption business. So what Amazon does is it will catch any industry. And there it will create so much commotion, so much fire, It will disrupt so that no other player is able to stand. So whether it is good or bad, it is the same. And then it will bring its entire team and give the best service. So that by the time another player comes, it will bleed. So they did it with books, they did it with the food market, They did it with Kindle, they did it with AWS.

They go to every market, they bleed so much and disrupt it. So now Amazon is not an e-commerce business, it is a disruption business. They find the industry, which next one to disrupt. We don't know what to do, we will be in that category. So I think that is a very different kind of DNA that disruption business. And there are early recordings of Jeff Bezos talking to employees. He was clear from day one that I don't want to make a disruption company.

It was not clear from day one that I want to be the leader of books. Or I want to be the leader of e-commerce. I want to disrupt. I only believe in disruption, I just want to disrupt. Yeah. No, I mean, you're right. If you watch his videos, there is an insane amount of clarity. Like I see internally, when we do new experiments, people get scared. What if it doesn't work? Especially the media. Right? As soon as you do something and stop it, it gets published in the news. right?

And I keep reiterating a quote by Jeff Bezos. You Know, An experiment is not an experiment if you already knew the outcome. So, we are doing this experiment because we don't know what will happen, right? So, you know, yes, you will still get beaten by the world. It's okay. You did it, it didn't work. Why did you do it? But that's not a reason. So, you have to be strong-hearted to know that this will happen. But we don't know, that's why we are trying. You said that... In the first four years, you didn't believe in PR much.

So why is it like this? Because, isn't it better? There are a lot of companies, specifically, I believe in this school of thought. That you should build in public. From day one, you don't know what you are going to do. Okay, we don't have a solid idea. We are experimenting. Whether it will work or not, it will work. But while telling your audience, see, we are trying to do this. If it works, we will make it big together. So from day one, you are communicating, you are telling your story to the world.

So I think then, you make a stronger community, that after five or six years, When it becomes a product, then each person will feel connected to you. That I saw you struggling in the beginning. This is how it became. And there are a lot of community-led companies in the U.S. right now. Like Gymshark was one of them. Gymshark, from day one, kept their weaknesses at the forefront. Now you tell me how. Lego was almost going to go bankrupt. It was already bankrupt.

Lego said that we are going to go bankrupt. We don't have any idea. So I asked my audience, do you like it? You tell me what to do. So its audience came, Lego's audience came, gave some marketing angles, gave new product lines, told them new things. And they did that experiment. So Lego today is what it is. Right? I didn't know that. Communities help you build that. Otherwise, we wouldn't have known what brand Lego was. Yeah. Correct. Don't you feel that it's a good angle? No, I, I agree. That it's a very good angle.

I think, we don't know how to do this, right? And maybe we still don't know. So, I think that is the primary reason why, even today, Like we're not, like I am, for example, not very active on Twitter. And I see many founders who are active on Twitter and you'll see their comments. So there are a lot of comments which are helpful, both good or bad. Personal branding is helpful. And, and the feedback that you're getting, right? If people are saying somthing critical then there is something to be learned.

You can always choose to ignore, but you find those nuggets. But in fact, this is something I wonder, will take input from you how to do it. Because I think more from the perspective of how can I get more feedback, right? How do i get more Feedback. When I started the company, as I said, I didn't understand all this or I didn't even see it in 2015. So unfortunately, what happened to us was that. The PR that we knew, they all had standard questions that,

What is the funding? What is the valuation? How much will you grow next year? When will you do IPO? What is the headcount? You know, like, which is more for the business audience. Got it. So then we realized that we are anyway not connecting with our customers by talking to them. So then why are we doing it? Right. So let's just focus, keep our heads down. And then second was, you know, we were too much in love with our idea. Right. We want, we're very productive over our idea. If this is known somewhere 15 more startups my not come.

And in fact, you know, there was a time back then, if you remember? Everything you used to launch their 15 to 20 clones used to come. Remember? In fashion 15 to 20 clones, And i remember laundry type service was started in that also 20 to 25 Player. In food delivery have 10-15 people. You know in everyting, You know even the niciest of idea. We said that 20 people will start this. Specifically if you're trying to sell something online, like you're trying to do,

Correct. So I said, you know, there'll be a time and place for us to go out. But right now, and again, I think it comes back from your right. It comes back from your strategy. I think, like the example you gave, it's almost, it's part of the strategy. Community. Community, right? Because when we were focusing on the seller, They are focused on the very transactional aspect of it, very understandably. When you're selling a car, all you care about is that you get good money and sell the car.

It's not something you look forward to. That i will spend 2 days to sell the cars. You just want to send and get your money. Right. It's a, it's a thief, right? However, by side, something for me to think about, A takeaway that I am taking for me, Because when you're buying a pre-owned car, It does matter what has been the experience of other people's. You are investing so much money in buying a car. It's a substantial amount for most people. Is this a right car for me? You know, if others can comment on their experience of driving the same car.

That's very valuable to users. So that's, thank you. That's a, that's something for me to think about, Especially now that we are rapidly expanding, directly selling to end buyers as well, apart from dealers. I think it's... Let's talk about it after podcast. I love doing this because I feel you should have the best community of people wanting to buy cars. Because if you look at middle class in India is growing.

Right? And everyone wants cars. Correct. So the biggest question is, if I want any car today, who should I buy it from? And earlier in India, people were like, we won't buy used cars. It was a bit of a taboo, that no man, it's a new car. Now, no one has a problem. People think that it's financially smart. They buy a used car. It's much better. You have to drive it for a few days because the car has become a comfort status for people. So, I'm like, now I'm looking forward to content or a community or a podcast.

Where they tell me that if I'm going to buy these 4 cars, how do I compare these 4? What are the stories? How did I fool people? How did I get a good profit? So, if I get to hear those stories from a brand, I'll trust that brand more. Yeah, yeah, correct. Absolutely, I agree. You got me thinking. Okay, alright, so this was one question. Second was obviously talked about ideas.

That if you tell ideas, it happens. But isn't there a school of thought of Elon Musk? That you keep telling ideas. Because if you don't tell your ideas, good people won't join. Yeah. So if, I mean, obviously there is a fear that if I tell my idea to everyone, Which I also feel a lot of times that. If I tell everyone, there will be 25 more like me. Because what is stopping other people to get into my business? Right? Because there is nothing. Nowadays, earlier there was capital leverage. That in 2000, the people who used to bring in capital, they couldn't win. Correct.

And now that is not there either. Not everyone can get funding, you will get it from somewhere. Correct. So capital leverage has to be saved. Access, people have to be saved, the right team. Correct. You can break people from anywhere, you can make them. Correct. So there is a fear that if I tell other people's idea, it will be made. Correct. But there is a thought that if I don't tell my idea. Correct. So how will good people connect with me? Correct. How am I sending signals to the universe that I am trying to make this? Correct. Come and let's make it together. Correct. So what is that?

Because I have always believed that Elon Musk's philosophy that let's tell, let's tell everyone. Let's see, someone will join and he will come and make our process fast. Because if I don't tell, good people won't join. Correct. Correct. So look, I think, I think all very valid points. So if I come to the point of making a team specifically. So we also thought that if we don't tell, then how people will know. And tell me something that, if you don't spread the words, then how will the people come?

So we took a very different approach. I always believe that I am already surrounded by people, Who are highly talented. So all I need is people who are more trust worthy . Than trying to really interview and find the best a class people, right? Nice. That's a, and I'll tell you why, because the when i was giving IIT Exam. The IIT exam on my time was a screening exam and a mains exam. I don't know how it is now, but it was a screening exam in December.

Then in March, April, I remember it was a mains exam. So in the screening exam, there were objective type questions. So you can literally, you know, compare against your friends. It was objective and there was no subjectivity whether you have 40 marks out of 100 or 42 marks. So when I, and a friend of mine ran the analysis of how many marks are we going to get. My analysis was 40 marks out of a hundred and his analysis of 41 out of a hundred. Right.

In screening, he got a 1500 rank and I got a 6,000 rank. It's such a big difference. Basis screening result, I would not make to IIT. I would not make to IIT, then BHU and others also. After that, 10-15 more colleges, I will not make it. Right. And in, in mains, sadly enough for him, He didn't make it. I made it Right. What takeaway I, for me from that was that there is no need to be too happy.

Because the luck has played a big part. Yeah. Forget one mark, one mark, two marks, three marks, four marks, five marks, ten marks, Maybe what difference are you telling? If that is a barometer, I mean, that's o ne of the barometers. That's used in our education system. Right. But is that really a barometer of how intelligent you are? If not, if not, I'm not talking about drive and passion. I'm just talking about intelligence. I don't think so. Right. Same up do you make the right 99 points? Some pay cutoff.

So just get 92. Well, but I need concert tier four college. But what is the difference between that person and somebody getting 99? I don't think there's any, at least from an intellect perspective or seriousness to a cat's perspective. So that is basically, they say like, I'm already surrounded all the people that I know, My friends and their friends of friends and their friends of friends that largely gone to good colleges, right? So I'm trying to separate amongst all these hundred people.

Who are, how am I even going to separate A plus from A? So what we really focused on is finding people who believed in the idea. And who will, who we thought are willing to do it for long term, right? So in fact, by not sharing details around funding, We almost, we never shared that detail. Because we want to see if the person will join us without knowing that part. Right. So really, when we met somebody, we explained the whole business. Nobody's going to join you without knowing anything in dark.

So we took them through the business. We, like you said, we, we encourage them to get a field, Take your car, if you don't have, take it from your family or your friend, try to sell it. Try to sell and get experience. Tell us the feedback, what was good, what was bad. But we, we try to hide about the financial aspect till the end. They used to ask, we were non-committal in that, That we are watching, but what do you think about the idea? First tell us about that. So that, I feel, got us a set of people, fortunately Touchwood who have been around for,

like I have a large set of team who has been there for five years plus, right? Out of eight years of existence. And as you can imagine, and one who had hired 5 years ago or who had hired years ago still there. So that is what we focused on as opposed to saying, You know, Harvard, Wharton, Stanford, yeah, you know, IIT McKinsey. In fact, we rejected more people who were very obvious candidates on paper. Right.

But we felt, it's fine. If it's fine, like 99 out of a hundred people should not be excited. So to your point, everyone will start making. Right. So, so we were just, the idea was to find, And that searching, we literally did through friends. So on Facebook literally me and my other co-founders, we went through our friend list.

And we said, who are the friends we really look up to? Right. So we made that list and pitch them that, we are doing this. What do you think. let's meet and discuss. If they refused we said, just give me four names from your friends list. Which you think is solid. Who would like this type of ideology. And I, we didn't tell them to make an intro because, You know we dont want to add fiction. We didn't tell them to tell us only what is available in the market. We said, just, just give me four names.

It doesn't matter whether that person is in India or not. It doesn't matter whether he is employed or not, whether he is looking for job or not. Just connect me to such people. So that's how we got connected to like hundreds of people. Literally just give us me three four names. People that you really would work with if you were to build something. So that's how we sort of created a huge list of people. And then actively chase them on LinkedIn. Then we used to go on LinkedIn, and find names and send messages to meet and talk. That's how we built most of our team initially.

In fact, for the first couple of years, We, this is how, this is just how we build a team, no use of any recruitment service providers. Or, you know, Naukri.com or, or consultants, anything. Just friends and friends and friends and friends, friends of friends, friends of friends. Yeah. That's a great strategy. But here's a problem to it and I'll tell you mine. All my friends are mostly entrepreneurs. Yeah. Everyone needs people. Whom i ask, In my list, I see that these are the 5 people I will work with.

I see that those 5 people are already setting fire to the fire before me. Then I ask them, you tell me, you have 4-5 people. If you had, you would have given it to us. Exactly! Yeah! No, no, even I... No, no, even I used to have that, But then the ecosystem was way small, right? Like it's probably one-fifth of it. Now everyone wants to start a startup, right? Earlier, not everyone wanted to start a startup. Plus, you went to... Look at your pedigree also, right?

Like, IIT Bombay, McKinsey, Sequoia, Wharton. If you meet people from all these places, They are smart and those who will work in the future, they will have a lot of friends, right? My pedigree is... I didn't go to a great college. Not a great school. I dropped out of MBA in the middle. So, I don't know anything. I don't have any friends there. And only an entrepreneur's background. And there was an institution in one place where I could get a very good candidate. That was United Nations. So, I went to represent in the UN. But in the UN, everyone wants to be diplomats and all that.

So, nobody is interested in the business part of it, right? And most of them are international. So, only one went from India. The rest... Some are German, some are from Finland, some are from Russia. So, they want to do something in their own countries. Yeah. No, I think I, I completely agree with that point. In fact, a lot of your credibility, I'm sure comes from your presence on social media and talking, Which I agree that has been an undue advantage. Uh, for like when somebody would look at me on LinkedIn,

That this guy has reached out cold. So it's feels interesting enough. Like, man, I have written so many good things in my resume, so let's meet once. You are absolutely right. Yes. All the top, creme a creme, everything from your first institute till now. Correct. Till now. Your company is... You're right, that's a huge undue advantage, But you found a smart way to counter that, completely. Trying. Trying. I still don't know how and what happened. But trying to do that. Okay. One thing which you said in the initial talk, Is that internally, it is very important to communicate to the leadership team.

Or the whole team about what we are doing, What are our next plans, etc. We have to align a lot. If we don't speak in public, it's okay. We have only spoken to our team for 4 years. Right? One question on that. And I have been asking about this question to a lot of people personally. I think I have to ask this question to a lot of people. Because a lot of people have commented on this. Do you think her next plan you should share with your team? Like, strategically, the more you are able to show your leaders ahead,

The better it is because they will take... I think as founders, I have a flaw. I feel that all the solutions have to come from me, right? Which I think is extremely stupid. Which is almost like thinking I'm God, right? I have all the solutions. When I give them a one year, three year view, It's almost like they have said, okay, this is the problem I'll solve it and give it to you. And they have solved problems that, I have not been able to solve for many years.

So, so the more clarity they get, the more understanding. the team has and then you have more problem solvers. The less clarity they have, they can't help you even if they want to Because they don't know. So instead of you going as a founder, you go and say, Look, this is the plan and this is how we have to make the world move. Instead, let's sit together and see how to make the world move. Correct. Co-create plans instead of just you giving your plan or your version to the people.

And, and, and, and create some guardrails. You have to do this. You don't know how to do it. You, I don't have to feel the burden of telling me the answer. So for example, internally we have said that, We have to take organic traffic share, just making a random example, X to Y. I have no idea how to do it. But we want to bring our marketing costs down, etc. We have to reduce the paid channel. That's a, that's something that I outlined for them. Can we make organic like 95% in three years?

Where is it coming from? It's an ambition. It's a vision, right? It's like, it's not, it's not scientific. It's not some formula that I came up with, but the team is running with it. There's like, fine, this is a, this is a worthy goal. Instead of me trying to figure out what has to be done for that, They are doing things like optimizing Google business pages to the end level, right? I don't think I could come up with that idea or solution even if I want to. Right. And hundreds of similar, such examples. So I think they've become a part of it.

The other part of it, which I think is also very important is, is that, You know, we have a lot of us, especially me we have in this, We have in our nature that we tell good news and we don't tell bad news right? Which is, I feel that being vulnerable is very hard, But it's very important. It's extremely important. Not just in professional life, personal life also, right? With Kids, Like you know, I was listening to a podcast where, You know, somebody was talking about that how in covid, One of the challenges is that parents are not telling kids what has happened to the relatives.

Somebody has died. Right. And they're making up stories. That you know, uncle has gone to the, has gone for a trip. He's gone to God and he's gone for a vacation, whatever. Right. You're basically, what are you doing? You are basically training people, not to be children, not to be ready to handle the bad news. It's not that how long will you protect? Yeah. You know, this is life, you know, there will be ups and downs. There'll be highs and there'll be massive lows too. Can't help it. So the same in business, you try to protect, it's futile because A, they know.

And worse is because you're not communicating, They know the worst version of it, the most gossipy, the most dirty version of it. So you might as well sort of go and talk, go clearly and discuss. This is, this is the part of, and especially, You know, when companies are short on runways, they are like even more sensitive, right? I've seen some. In fact, if you go and tell, So they would have come up with 10 ideas on how you could cut the runway.

When you have made it your problem and you are not telling anyone. How can anybody help you even if they want to? So I feel the more you share that would be nice. Now, Some people argue that if shared then the data will be leaked. Which also happens in the news, right? That comes on Twitter, breaking news. We have the financials and threats. But then as soon as we think that internally is 1% for bad Apples, Locking up information for the 99% is a bit unfair.

We're making fools of ourselves. Actually, forget about fair or unfair to them. Now as I'm thinking about it,what you're trying to do on a broader scale, I'm building it in public, so that public can give me feedback. I think I'm at least doing that internally. The more I share, the more forward looking I share with them, the more clarity I give, at least internally. So then everybody is building it with me as opposed to,

I thinking I am sort of, the my God here giving instructions and doing things. Yeah. One is that you hear a lot of jargon, make an org chart, make an organization chart. And when you start a new startup, you don't know all this. You just know how to make a business, how to make it, we'll see, we'll do it. So, if I tell you my exact situation, it will be clear to a lot of people. That you tried to do something, it was your idea and it got done. So you got the product market fit. Now you want that the 50 lakhs, 1 crore, 2 crore that I have done.

I should do this for 200 crores. That's my ambition. So who should I hire for this? How should I make an org chart? What is your strategy? Because I'm sure, when you were growing your company, So you said that we got the dealers, We know that demand is not a problem, supply is a problem. Now we have to scale it. We made it great by sitting on one petrol pump. We sold 40-50 cars. Now how do we do 5,000? How do we do 50,000?

So that's a question. But you don't have an answer. Should I bring a finance person? Should I bring HR to hire talent acquisition? Who should I bring? Should I bring sales? So it's such a difficult position to build an org chart. How do you make it? Who are the people you need? At what time? How is it decided? So, I'll tell you my approach. I have never read a book on this topic. Maybe I should. I haven't read it, but I haven't got an answer.

I haven't got an answer. That's why I'm asking. So I'll tell you how I thought. What I thought is that I want to work with people, Who I'm extremely comfortable with, right? That is like the most important criteria for me. You buy as a local, as my core group. Earlier it was of 4- people, than it ws of 20-25 people with whom i can talk about anything. Talking about anything is not means that i take them for granted or i am talking rude to them.

Respect is very important, but I should be able to talk about anything anytime. If someone is calling me even at 12:00 in the night, then i should not think that, why is he calling me. So that is the very first thing I optimize for, Because I have been in situations where not to the fault of the person, I have not been very open with that person, And it so happens that some become very close to you some do not. But you can try and put some logic to it, but I don't think it's force fitting, right? So it is what it is, right? Does the vibe match or not.

Does the vibe match or not. And it's very hard to tell, right? So I focus on that vibe. I think that's the right word you put in. That is whether it matches the right vibe or not. That's sort of my, one of the very important criteria. The second criteria is that whether the business model is reliable or not. So when i finalie someone in an interview, i got the exact opposite way. What will you do if this company will not work. Why do you think there are 10 reasons we will fail, right?

To see what this guy says, what does he react. And third, I think it was in, it was my influence from McKinsey and Sequoia to hire a journalist for everything. So I, uh, focused on hiring journalists. Uh, now there are areas like finance, for example, right? You need a specialist, a specialist who has done it. But for a lot of things, including marketing etc. I feel you can get away by hiring and then you may hire specialists under them.

Yeah, but there are areas that are. Fundamentals are easy to understand. There are areas where fundamentals might be a little harder to understand. Eventually you will also understand in finance, But then there are areas. So, so for areas like sales, marketing, business development, You know, product in sub mass, the largely generalist he hired, Who may or may not have any background in that area.

With the belief. Principles say, that they will ask questions so they will learn. Interestingly, I have never focused on sort of hiring for the skill. I have focused more on hiring for the will, for the vibe, and whether they will be in it with me for long-term or not. Right. Interesting. Instead of focusing on the skill, let's focus on the will. Wow. I learned this in McKinsey.

There they always used to talk about skill will 2 by 2. Okay. That you know, there are people who have high skill and high will. Bro, catch it. Right? This means... Golden. It's gold. And then there are people who are high skill and low will. What will you do with them? Right? And that will is specific to you. Like I was telling you that... I met a Stanford guy. Brilliant guy. Absolutely brilliant. Sheer brilliance, right? But if that girl is not interested in my business...

Then how will she ever have the will to work on it? Yeah. So what will I do about the skill? Right? And obviously low will, low skill, so run. right? But low skill, high will. Like I go for it all the time, right? If I find somebody who is taking time to get into the getting to speed, But if they have a high will internally, we persist for, for full year or more. So no knee-jerk reaction, That we are giving you 1,2 or 3 months time, you try to do it. right?

Like, just keep on persisting with that person. Give them the space. Bcause they have the will, they are putting effort, right? So I'll be like, yeah, right. It's. I think this is a version of skill build in every organization. Yes. We have this version, I do this internally, my business coach told me this. Competence and commitment. Yeah. So judge every person on two scales of competence and commitment.

High competent, low commitment, we don't want that. You have a lot of talent, a lot of competence, But your commitment level is low, we don't want that. Is it the same? High commitment, low competence, it's fine. Correct. But if it's high competence, high commitment, then it's golden. Correct. So trust that. Correct. And then I read that in a book by Simon Sinek as well. Yeah. He says that in the Navy SEAL, you are going to the border of a country.

And you are going to protect the country, so how will you make a team for that? Yeah. So their talent and trust. Hmm. So they also had a 2x2 talent and trust. That high talent, high trust, golden. Correct. Low talent, high trust, take it. If you don't have trust. If you don't have trust and high talent. So you're stuck. Yes. And what will you do with that person in a critical situation? If you can't trust the person. He's like he's a golden shooter, he's an ace, he can shoot from a distance, He's got a lot of body, he's fit, he's everything. But you can't trust him. Correct.

So what will you do? Will you go to war with him or not? So building a company is like going to a war against your problems. Correct. So if you want to go to war, you need high level trust people instead of talent. And which is where I really, really focus on. Having people for as long as possible. Because of compounding in life always happens on the, on the, on the latter part of anything, right? Whether you're building revenue.

Like I've seen like my team members growing. And I have like, personally, I feel like, you know one thing we discuss internally, That one of the things that is keeping us going after this is ninth year now, and will keep us going for next 20 years also is that, Every start of every year, we feel highly confident, right? This year we will do it. right? And next year when we reflect back on the past year, we realize how stupid we were right.

And it happens every year, right? Now, when we look at, in fact, whenever we recently team, You know, when we were planning for the start of the year, I made a slide for the team, you know colleague was reminding me of that. I was telling him, I put it in the slide that in the last eight years, right? If I look at 2015 and 16, I just can't believe that we have come so far. Because we had absolutely no idea for anything. We just, in hindsight, now I feel so much wiser, so much better,

But then I can't ignore how lucky I was at that time that I came here. And I told him that, but we can't keep riding the luck all the time. So I would believe that we have already rode a lot of our luck. And now we have to move forward with hard work. This luck will come back to you at some point. So, brother, work hard. You have to work hard. But that compounding happens later. And like I see with my team members, uh, you know,

It's been five years, six years, they are just getting stronger and stronger and better and better. They can handle the bloodiest of blows. They can handle the worst of news. They can be calm in the most insane situations. And that you can't expect somebody who's joined you six months, one year, two years ago. So I really optimize for trying to, you know, Have a team for really long, long-term. And this is one of the takeaways that's coming out for Dhoni, right? If you look at his team, it's really long-term. So that's sort of just getting reinforced for me even more.

That maybe this is one of the things that work really well for them, But they're not changing players, forget match from match. They're not changing season to season. You know, coaches be same, you know, management be same, captain be same. That consistency over a long period of time, Is hard to, it's impossible to quantify, but it just magic happens later in compounding. And MS Dhoni brother is MS Dhoni brother. It's a different level. He knows his formula. But he's made everybody his fan. Correct.

You met Dhoni. And Dhoni invested in your company. Yeah, Right. And he happened to be a close associate with you guys. Yeah. Tell me, what is the most admirable thing about Dhoni? Because you worked so closely with him. I watch him on TV. So, Captain Cool, which world says. Right. I agree. I'm a big fan of Dhoni. Yeah. I mean, in fact, I hate myself sometimes that I don't watch IPL. Because I support Mumbai. And Mumbai versus Dhoni match.

So, I was like, I want Mumbai to win. But how is MS Dhoni going to lose? Like, it's a, it's a, right? So, I'm a big Dhoni fan. Like, I'm not a blind fan. Correct. So, you have been very close with Dhoni. Yeah. So, what did you notice? That Mahi's, I mean, Dhoni's or Mahi brother leadership style. I think you know, I think the only time I've managed to catch hold on him when he is shooting ad for us.

The thing that strikes me every time is humility is an another level, another level, humble guy, right? Like last time, for example, when we met him, You know, my wife also came along, you know, my co-founder's wife also came along. And the shoot was getting delayed, right? So he got a few pictures taken and then the director told him. Mahi brother please come we have to finish the shoot. He made it a point to say, that please sorry i will back after this shot. Then i will take pictures with you guys.

He did't have to do that. You will understand that the guy is busy. And, and at that immediate moment, I thought about, You know, when I go to, we have these reconditioning centers, where we do car reconditioning. You know, I go in, do a meeting and then I have to go for the next meeting. So there's so many people who come and say hello to me and I do say hello to them, But I didn't, maybe I should take 10, like half an hour out, 15 minutes out. And just stay with them for 10 minutes, because that's incredibly valuable to them.

If it could mean so much to me and my family to meet Dhoni is an idol for all of us. Imagine at some level, I mean, not comparing myself to Dhoni, but at some level, Your team members, Your employees, especially your front line, They want to see you. They want to hear you. They want to shake your hands. And just, just, just spend like two minutes with each person. Just ask them who is in your family, he does that. It's incredible how humble he is.

We asked him where are you staying? So he said, with his friend, you know, you would expect some fancy hotel, presidential suite. You know, I asked him, I'd heard somewhere that I heard You sleep on the bed, on the floor. He said, yeah, I mean, it's good for my back. And anyway, up to, you know, with my daughter and wife, I don't get any space on the bed. So, you know what I mean? Like extremely humble, shares his stories. I asked him, uh, that, you know, you like, you have like,

you know, in your team, you had superstars, right? So how do you sort of get everybody along? Uh, and he would sort of spend five, 10 minutes explaining how he thought about it, very patiently, slowly, not saying, I have to go. So extremely humble guy. And you, I mean, that's the first thing that, And I think that's one of the reasons because that subconsciously,

You know, comes out of him all the time. Yeah. It's just incredible. Like I took that lesson that boss, you know, I could be a hundred X more humble and I'll still not reach his level. Okay, tell me, why Dhoni? There are so many celebrities in the world. There are so many big celebrities, right? Why specific Mahindra Singh Dhoni? Why did you make Dhoni your brand ambassador? You could have gone to Virat Kohli because it was booming at that time, right? Probably, it could have been of more value or less value, I don't know. But you could have got an undervalued asset at that time, right?

Virat Kohli was being made. You had options. You were in Bollywood. Shahrukh Khan could have been made, right? Or Amitabh Bachchan could have been made if there is a trust thing. Why Mahindra Singh Dhoni? It was booming at that time, right? Actually, we ran a survey internally. So there was a huge debate, right? Amongst various cricketers or Bollywood celebs. We actually ran a survey inside with our front line, right? Because, you know, obviously, in corporate, there were a lot of strong opinions. And unanimously, it was Dhoni.

So, you know, like what we... Public voting. Public voting. And you see that, every IPL, you see that, right? Even today, you look at the news, what people are tweeting. You know, there are lots of stars and people who are extremely talented, But the most loved is him, right? You know, if you make, you can make list of highest wicket takers, highest run getters, most talented. He may or may not now feature on those lists, But where he will always feature is the most loved one, right?

And not just today's generation, but across generations of cricketers. So I think, like when we saw our survey results, We were very clear that there is no debate on this. He just stood out and by a big margin, not by like a small... Right. It was in 2019, there was a trust index done, a survey done in the country, India, right? Which celebrities are there? By making them your brand ambassador, your sales increase the most. Or your brand's fan following increases the most.

Right? So, there was a list of top 10. No. 1 was Mahindra Singh Dhoni. Not surprised. And at that time, Shah Rukh Khan, Salman Khan, Akshay Kumar, Amitabh Bachchan, Virat Kohli, all of them were after Mahindra Singh Dhoni. Yeah. Mahindra Singh Dhoni's trust index was 93%. Yeah. If 100 people follow Mahindra Singh Dhoni. And if Dhoni says that this product is good, 93 people believe that it will be good. Even if they don't buy it, but 93 people believe it.

And the biggest sales impact comes when you make Mahindra Singh Dhoni your brand ambassador. Yeah. So, I think Mahi signifies trust. Trust and most loved, I mean, even this morning I sent what Hardik Pandya said in the post-match, right? That if I have to lose to somebody, it has to be Mahendra Singh Dhoni. I don't mind losing to this guy at all. For whom do you say this? You never say. You always say that the other team played better than us. Yeah. Right? That's the most common statement. Respectfully accepting the defeat.

But the way he said it, you know that there is incredible admiration, right? There is. Even a clip was going viral before the match between Gujarat and Chennai. Have you seen that clip? I'll send you. No, I have not. It says, Hardik Pandya goes to Mahendra Singh Dhoni's house. Mahi brother, this time in the IPL, Gujarat and Chennai will reach the finals. And I will defeat you, Mahi brother. Watch it, Mahi brother I will defeat you. So that clip was very viral, that camaraderie,

That brotherhood and the way it looked like a junior is telling his senior, That look, my time has come, you know, I will defeat you and we both will go to the finals and I will defeat you. And now since last night, that clip is going backwards. We won the respect for Hardik Pandya, but Mahi brother is Mahi brother. It just happened that way. Like it's just people like him. And there are, I'm blessed to have some other people in my life from whom the.

Single most important thing I've learned as a... Before, you know, talking about this fancy language of what it takes to be a leader. Just be a good person with people around you. And it's just so important. Respectful... Now, respectful doesn't mean you can't be aggressive. Yeah. But you can't be disrespectful. Right? Uh, those are two very, very different things. You can be very aggressive about what you want. You want to do big numbers. You want to grow 200%. But you can still be highly respectful. Don't make people feel bad about themselves.

Having empathy, when somebody needs some thing, Just sort of trying to go out of the way, Even if you have a super busy schedule, at least call them and ask them. If there's anything you could do, uh, Like, you know, just putting them before you, I mean, if you have create a happy environment, people will deliver. Right. I mean, and we've, we've been in this pursuit of building a big business, growing fast. We often forget that we Indians are dealing with humans all the time.

And humans want human affection. So that's one thing we know, like I personally and my team members, we try to focus on that. How do we create a happier environment? And happier is not that I have increased the engagement budget, Increased the party budget, or, you know, made a trip abroad, or set up a snooker table and so on is like on a day to day basis, I really care about that person or not.

Genuinely, I care about you or not. Right. Not that I'm trying to portray it, but I genuinely care. Right. You will do well you will be happy and we will do well. And if forget anything else we are having, We'll have, you want to have happy memories through this journey. We're giving our lifetime to this. Let me tell you a follow-up. So I made a podcast with the founder of Polygon. And I asked the same question. And he said, I talk to my team every month. I go and talk to someone. Is it fun? Yeah.

That is my review question. Is it fun or not? He said, if it's not fun, let's talk. If it's fun, it's good. I'll talk to someone else. So what you're saying, create a happy environment. I liked that lesson so much. Is it fun or not? Great question to ask. It's so simple. So easy. And there is one more lesson which I have followed in my life. I don't know how it came inside. But I started following.

That, you know, we always see that if there is a target, let's say it didn't happen to a team member. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And you are directly angry because you are in such a high-pressure environment. You say, you can't do it, leave it, leave it. Yeah. Instead of that, you can start saying, it didn't happen, how will it happen, tell me this. Correct. So there are two things in this. Those who are going to do it, they will find another way and do it. Correct. And those who don't do it, they will leave it themselves. You don't have to belittle them.

Exactly, you don't have to be like, you don't have to insult them. That you can't do it, you can't do it, you don't have the talent, Why did we hire you, what did you do? And usually we say such words indirectly, they come out of our mouth and that is the sad part. So since I shifted to this, that you can't do it versus it didn't happen, Now how will we do it next time, tell me this. Correct. Things have shifted drastically, just one word. Yeah. Such a simple change in the tone and the language and attitude. And I agree it's such a powerful change in the behavior that people experience.

You have lived in the US, you have lived in India, You have seen the US businesses, you have seen India's businesses, Now your business is in multiple countries, right? So what is the difference between Indian customers and the rest of the world's customers? Have you noticed anything like this inside? Indian customers... are definitely more demanding, right. You know, we are right now in UAE, Thailand, Australia, Obviously, Mehul runs international countries. So I have not spent time in Thailand, but I have spent time in UAE and Australia.

And, you know, the implicit trust is, is a bit higher. I'm not saying it's absolute, they trust you fully, But implicit trust, you know if i order the car, it will come well, it will run properly. There is no something that I'm not understanding. The starting point is trust. Okay everything will be fine if there is some screw up this company will fix.

In India its opposite. The starting point is mistrust specially. And it should be, you are buying a car in UAE, Australia, car ownership is very high. Everyone has a car, they have bought and sold it many times. It's something, it's a big deal, but it's not the biggest deal. In India, car is the biggest deal. So just people start from that point of view, what is the catch, right? So just like, I can't tell you on our website, we do small experiments in India,

which improves our funnel, right? You would say how with these things. But if your value proposition is not visible in the first fold, It used to be visible earlier, we raised it, the funnel improved by a few percentage points. So, you know, those also reinforced, apart from price and offer, just that buying a car, Value building trust and giving proof of it becomes very important. And you should come across as genuine. So in those countries, that has been an easier part,

Where they're just getting the people to do the trial is easy. And because you get the trial done, then all you have to do is not screw up. You know, you don't get the permission for the trial until you sort of give them enough confidence. That you know, I am worthy of, of your trial, please try me. Yep. You know, I'll tell you something, maybe you'll agree. This is what I've noticed. In India, it's very difficult to make the first customer trust you. And in foreign countries, it's easy for the first customer but it's difficult for the second one.

Because when you make someone trust you for the first time in India, Then all your friends, your parents, your neighborhood, everyone is like, this is Irena. Word of mouth.The reference is so strong that you're the only one in that street. So, word of mouth is very good. In India, the first trust is very difficult. But once you make them trust you, the second, third, fourth, word of mouth spreads very quickly versus other countries. In other countries, it doesn't travel so quickly. There, every individual is an individual cost of acquiring a customer.

In India, community, human, family, you've done one, then you see. Oh, that's an interesting one. It works, right? Somehow, partially, this is true. Yeah, Yeah. Okay, last question, which industry do you feel will grow the most in India in the next 10 years? If you were here today, because most of the people who are watching, This are entrepreneurs who want to do something, Who are dreamers and want to do something, or want to work in an industry,

Or want to get promotions in a job, or want to make a career. So which industry or sector do you think will grow the most in India in the next 10 years? If you think about it, what is the sector where there won't be any growth? I think the answer is, there is going to be growth in everything, right? You can catch anything. And I think, you know, when I was in McKinsey, At that time, there was a very famous McKinsey, at least, it was internally famous, not outside. There was a report called the Bird of Gold, which was all it talked about. And I think even today, in any startup presentation,

The first slide is that our GDP per capita, right, is this much. And we are so far from China. So, now we are going to get an infection, now it has come, now it has come, now it has come, right? But look, it has to come. And I think that is true for everything. It is true for cars. We have 2%, 3% penetration of cars in India, right? In the US, it's probably 85-90%. Take anything, take pharma. I was talking to a friend about his pharmacy business in Delhi. He was telling me, you will think of pharmacy as a business.

You will think, man what will happen in this? You set up a shop, you start selling in it. He gave me so many insights. There is so much to do on the front end, on the back end, on the distribution, on the generics. I was like, wow. So I think if I reverse the question, invert the question, I don't think there is anything. Even the most boring manufacturing, we are seeing so much action, right? That, you know, contract manufacturing is coming to India. Make in India is happening. Startups are coming with interesting ideas that we can sort of do cloud manufacturing for you.

You get us to do manufacturing. We don't have a factory, but we will do all the grunt work of finding. Yeah. So I think this is the best time. I think next, not just this, but 10, 20, 30 years for our generation and the generations coming. We are fortunate to be born in this time. Uh, could we pick a little, there is, there is something in, I mean, method, just a method, recycling industry may have sorts, right? But then there are Companies have come across, uh, again, through friends and family,

Who are buying you know, consumer scrap, consumer durables, electric fridges, refrigerator, Then talking them to the factory, shredding them and extrating metal from them and seeling out it. Opportunities everywhere. Everything has opportunity. The sector you beating is India. Sector I am betting on India. Absolutely. I think everything in India has an opportunity. Interesting. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. It was an insightful conversation. I want you to come back to a podcast again.

And I really want to spend more time on competition and marketing and a lot of other sectors. I really hope you enjoyed. So come back and make 2-3 episodes because I feel like I could talk to you forever. Thank you. I love doing this. Hope to do this again. Thank you so much. Done. ♫♫♫.