EXPOSING Startups & VC Money Secrets - Plivo Founder Venky | FO 118 - Raj Shamani

foreign. there have to be more startups. dominating certain verticals and that's. when I think the entire economy will. sort of then there'll be more belief. that like you can take markets and be. Market leaders in there GDP is like.

three and a half four trillion uh odds. right the World Bank is Set uh or. economic Forum has said 2032 that will. be 12 12 trillion 12 trillion welcome. back to another episode of figuring out. today I want to ask you a question you. must have used services like zomato. Ola zepto blinket swiggy all of these. services and every time they come to. deliver you they call you but you can't. see their original number they call you.

from an unknown number and you can call. them back but you don't know the which. number you're exactly calling back. this is called phone masking so today we. called an entrepreneur who is running. one of the biggest companies in the. world of phone masking today's episode. is with the founder of Cleaver in. today's episode we've talked about how. there are small small opportunities like. this which normal people don't see but. it's filled in India and a lot of people. can use them and build billion dollar.

Empires around it then we spoke about. how China is fooling the World by faking. the numbers that they Project Reality. we don't know then we have spoken about. how India strategically placed against. China against the world and why America. is really really important for India and. China both of us for our growth in. today's episode we've talked about so. many things related to how you can get. an opportunity to win in this country so.

make sure you watch this episode till. the end and please go check out rajamani. clips and rajamani shorts Channel. because there we put this huge podcast. in small small clips and also put. unfiltered Clips which usually you don't. get to see in the podcast as well. China is facing to there it's their own. problems now I think I think I think the. time is over China's time is over yeah.

a lot of problems internally right like. it was all sort of self-inflated. internally I mean I've even read some. reports where they're saying the GDP is. not even 8 billion 8 trillion right so. it really yeah yeah it's all inflated. you know artificial numbers being shown. in the media close to 18 trillion there. was a report that came out I think some. some Chinese lady itself uh this is a. channel called P gurus they actually. spoke about that on the channel saying. she's a Chinese National but in the.

States now so she was able to talk about. it seeing eight trillion minions. yeah us was the main supporter for China. I mean like us has taken their support. out right it's on India now so we'll see. a lot of I think India is the clear. that's another reason we don't want to. give our passports up right like the. India winner 100 like the next five. seven years look there's no. country that is uh you know Democratic.

like a democracy with these sort of. uh population age group all of that. there's no there's no other country. right there is that two challenges okay. let me tell you that I am very. optimistic India like I'm pro-india. optimism at Peak and I believe it's her. time yeah but every time I talk to. people who are let's say entrepreneurs. or economists or strategist they talk. about two major challenges of India one. is the education level yeah people say. that okay if this is India's time but.

India's people are not educated or. skilled enough skill I think is right. skill right let's say skill enough to. actually. be able to take full usage of the. opportunities that we have that is one. and second is India's consumption. pattern is super low beneficial. consumption like from a consumerism. point of view okay not super low but I. think it's very skewed 20 30 of the. countries consuming most of the stuff. exactly it is very skewed people say. it's not consumption is not rising at. scale my love it has to because if any. other country if you look at most of the.

country where they've grown right. they've either grown because of their. self-consumption let's say U.S where the. whole country was consuming that's why. there were so many needs or there is. something like China or Indonesia where. country makes it for other people the. people yeah so that they keep giving it. outside and then they get the US dollars. or the European dollars inside yeah I. have strong opinions on this I think. this is one of my favorite topics um. right so just think about this space GDP. is like three and a half four trillion. uh odds right three one six five times.

four let's say four right in I mean. they're saying uh the World Bank is said. uh or economic forum is said 2032 that. will be 12 12 trillion right I think. that was pre-covered and it doesn't. factor in all of the movement to India. all these companies moving to India I. feel like 2028 20 30 number 12 trillion. ah 12 trillion is world world Bank's. number for 2032. you feed the whole. economy is gonna grow by four x three x. three x three x absolutely in the next.

five years not five years 28 you said 28. is like very optimistic. seven years right 32 to like worst case. unless we mess up very badly politically. and all of that like it goes you know. Four Tops right uh so opportunity is. there so now if your GDP is going to go. three times from where we are today. imagine the the opportunities that will. be created so whatever you're talking. about skill and you know consumption so. per capita will automatically start. increasing right or and then you're.

saying uh skill to I think right like. yeah because people will see everybody. who is upskilling. getting to a different league right and. it's like the before the jio moment. nobody headphones yeah internet is. yeah it will be like that like the 2x is. not even created today yeah it's still. not done right yes yes so so that will. be when that gets created I think I I. don't think uh I'm in the in the in the.

uh you know camp that there's tremendous. opportunity. but I feel like we cannot be complacent. right because if we get completion then. I think. it'll get done so let's just chill out I. think that's a recipe for disaster so. you can't okay so there is optimism in. the country you feel let's say your one. rupee is gonna get two three four rupees. five rupees There's an opportunity to do. it yeah but if you feel like.

it's not going to happen no I don't. think so I think we'll have to work hard. for it not just work for it work hard. for it and this mindset of complacency. has to go out so I've spent a lot of. time in China actually okay so my. previous company was I was with Huawei. their hqs and Shenzhen so I spent a year. and a half in China like living in China. so I've seen how you know that sort of. taught me that what time mentality. what time mentality right like meaning. something's on fire today we need to get. things done in a very extreme urgent.

sort of mindset okay what time what time. what time mentality every day it's like. that every day is a war yes right so and. that's why Huawei if you see like when I. when when I took my first job this was. in 2005 right I've been in the Telecom. space all this while. my first job I think Nokia's Siemens. Ericsson like these are the companies we. would think about for the Bujo antennas. right so all of that was like Nokia. Siemens by the time I left Huawei who I. was everywhere they took over pretty.

much all of the other companies took. over as in they sort of beat all of them. and that only happened with that water. mentality. so I've seen like how that mindset works. I think India move on like that's the. key thing that is missing today. that everything needs to get done today. yes with extreme urgency and it's urgent. like yeah do you I think you'll have to. give it away right uh and we talk a lot. about we're very proud of this you got. attitude so that's the thing I learned. you know being the states that you got.

attitude also has to go professionalism. is to go yes I mean like super proud of. being jugado okay so maybe I think. juvado has two aspects of it one is the. problem solving aspect of it so I think. that has to be there obviously because. we can do things frugally but I think. what chalega attitude has to go with the. jugado aspect of it there's a little bit. of that unprofessionalism that comes in. right. that mentality has to go right so so I. think while jugaru I think can also have. a I mean I don't want to remove the. positive connotation to it but I think.

we're negative connotation piece has to. go out. for it yes right that professional. mindset so not lose promises absolutely. I think I think making sure like you. stick to what you're saying so that I've. seen in the US right like people are. very very professional and I think and. and I think Indian corporate India is. also quite professional but for mindset. like it has to become second nature. everywhere that okay so when you are at. work you are at work yeah not just at.

work anywhere right for anything like. that professional mindset has to come in. wait tell me you have worked in China. and you definitely work in India what. are the differences you've seen China or. India Make You Care differences in terms. of the work ethic yeah in terms of just. the country in terms of the way because. but I'm very interested in knowing China. their growth was massive they came out. of nowhere and became the superpower. economic super house in the world.

um. like first tell me about that do you. think that it's real also or no no it is. I know about this Chinese. as I was watching this movie as a. Chinese hustle yeah right yeah whatever. so you've seen it yeah yeah so Chinese. hustle was like he they used to have. these small companies in China they used. to get they used to list that in U.S. market and then they would just. artificially inflate the value of the. company yeah and reported a U.S.

government that hey you're not allowed. to check here because country rules. according country only has to report. what happens in the country in China in. China. yeah right so the Chinese in the U.S. paid few Chinese here in the China yeah. got the evaluations. like it's not even doing 50 million but.

they say 50 billion career and then they. would list it in the U.S market and they. show the upgrade and they'll keep buying. kill buying and at one point they'll. start dumping and like big major Banks. were involved yeah so this was like a. Chinese inflation I was reading I think. there is a bit of that I think in the EV. sector we saw some of that right like. what's uh I. I don't remember the company's name new. I think was part of some of this. yeah same dumping happen like there's no. product the stock was inflated there's a. lot of government help okay how does.

Chinese government help Chinese. companies to win it's like how the. Indian startup economy works today like. you know net loss leaders sort of. economic models same model but that's. funded at a government scale so imagine. right so yeah so so over time you make. money one could argue like there's. another point of uh view there right A. lot of people say there's nothing wrong. with it Amazon did that for so many. years yeah public market so there's. nothing wrong with it I think there's. nothing wrong with it as long as you are. transparent about it and and you.

communicate that to the other side that. this is how it's being run right I don't. think a lot of this is like publicly. spoken about in the in the audiences so. so that's where it becomes a little. interesting um but otherwise I think. going back to your question on how is. China different in terms of uh you know. what I've seen differently I think. the the share. hard work that people put in is is crazy. like I said every day is water mentality. when I was in in China in Shenzhen. everybody would be in office by like 7.

30 in the morning 7 30 in the morning. and we'd be in office till 8 39 o'clock. at night right uh and nobody forces you. to do that like you feel left out if you. don't do it that's the work ethic and. this is Huawei Huawei has I think uh. almost you know 150 000 not not even 150. 000 yeah 150 000 employees now maybe. it's more so it's not a startup of you. know with 20 30 people and we're doing. this right yeah 150 000 people so you're. culturally ingrained.

they feel left out right nobody's forced. to do it and. there's a 30 minute break in between uh. for lunch you sit on a lunch table they. have a huge cafeteria lunch table it's. served so like they give you you don't. have to go out anywhere right. everything's inside the campers so you. know there are there are there's a large. cafeteria you can buy stuff you can do. all of that stuff. 30 minutes breaker but I think 15.

minutes like it's it's a table like this. long table like this. people are like finishing food and. getting up so if you don't finish in in. your batch the next batch is sitting in. at home. so the first week was like an eye opener. to me that I have to finish the thing in. 15 minutes. all right that's where I learned my. chops Chopstick skills right yeah. because in 15 minutes you have to finish. that stuff and you're eating rice with a. chopstick yeah and you need to get out. right uh so so. yeah so it was like get out and then the. good thing is you I mean it's a.

mandatory no work nap. after your lunch. so in 30 minutes everybody just goes to. the table takes a nap you have to take a. nap everything is shut down monitors are. switched off so you just cannot work. mandatory 30 minute nap 30 minute nap. right like uh it's in the Chinese. culture it's also on the Spanish culture. it's called Siesta there and why do you. do that it's a power nap so it makes you. like you don't feel like it feels like. you just started work then once you wake. up and start working so so when you.

think about it 7 30 to 9 o'clock how do. you keep going the only way you can keep. going is when you take that power nap so. it almost feels like it's a fresh day. there's obviously a lot of green tea. driving that but but yeah it's a lot of. great but dude reviews sometimes if you. keep working like this every day in a. schedule you lose on your creativity. yeah I think I've read somewhere the. schedule is a killer of her creative yes. I know both right so so left brain right. brain classic stuff right so if you want. to be more creative I agree I think you. need some time to think through things.

uh. although the teams I worked with I don't. think there's more a lot of creativity. there it was more pure execution like we. had to execute right like we had to out. execute the other side so I don't know. if I can speak for like the teams I work. with but I agree right now I like when I. reflect back like there are days when I. have to sort of think through some. things creatively those days are usually. lean days you don't put a lot of deep. work yeah in those days don't have a lot. of meetings on those days. so I think you need a balance of both. now but you're still working right like.

working doesn't just mean sitting in. front of a laptop and just you know. punching. buttons right like you or sort of or. Keys you sort of you're still working in. your in your head you're still working. right so yeah I mean I would I would. argue you could be you know in in a cab. to the airport or whatever but if you. think it's still yeah yeah mentally. you're still thinking about like what. needs to get done so mindset and nobody. should be telling you sort of this has. to be done I think that's the difference. I saw there it's not like people are.

chasing you to get that done nobody's. you know monitoring you up. it was just getting done as a cultural. thing right so I think that's the. biggest difference I've seen uh in fact. when I was in Hawaii India. um it was completely opposite. right so yeah yeah same company so nine. o'clock we have to uh you know be at. office they would literally monitor your. punch in time I mean talk about being. incorporate life they will monitor your. punch in time. and if you are relate three days Beyond.

9 15. then you need to get certain approvals. from different layers and if those are. not approved then you have to apply for. relief half a day leave like it was that. bad and like we're talking corporate. life right so yeah I mean Huawei India. was like that so they try to bring in. that same Vibe here and it just wouldn't. work and they had to enforce it. right so I I'm not saying it's good or. bad but but I think that's one. difference I think like that hard work. is crazy yeah major difference like they.

work like they're an underdog I'm also. spent a little bit of time in Brazil. like a year in Brazil. and I feel like it's a total opposite. like that was a shocker to me Brazil. yeah Brazil is more like super relaxed. as if they've made it in life. right it's they they everybody in their. head believes they're a very developed. nation and a rich country. nobody works Beyond you know 3 34. o'clock but really yeah it's completely. chilled out culture I was there for one. year it was a shocker to me right and. that year there was also World Cup there.

so anyways like because of their you. know soccer nobody nobody actually works. yeah I was totally chilled out and and. but their economy is apparently not that. great no it's not right like they're. they are in the bricks exactly grouping. but but they behave like a rich country. everybody that believes they're a rich. country it's like if I compare Brazil in. India Brazil has at least 10 15 years. more to go towards India like Brazil. could be like what India is in in 15. years from now yeah 15 20 years but if. they work like nobody wants to work. there it's super chilled out I think.

Brazilians have wild energy like. probably their attitude towards work is. different but they just want to party. all day yeah I don't think it's work I. think it's not it's the same thing with. everything else except like party. right their entire mindset is like just. partying yeah which is what I'm saying. it's it's a I think a rich country. developed country mentality yeah the. celebration mentality yeah yeah we've. done everything in life you have to do. and most of these folks are I'm like. regular folks I'm talking about.

no no absolutely not interesting I. didn't know this about Brazil I thought. probably Brazil would reflect India. Indonesia now I've stayed in Indonesia. also like for almost nine months right. so yeah Indonesia I think Indonesia has. a good good hustle culture right like. it's it's very similar to India let's. say 20 years ago so a good hustle. culture people are grounded they want to. do the work and get things done how. would you compare India and Indonesia if. you have to because a lot of time people. say Eastman there's a gem called India. and Eastman there's a competitor called.

Indonesia I don't I don't know I'm. biased but I don't think Indonesia's. like talent pool is missing is it. because a lot of people say that the. tech the talent pool the tech the. national resources everything in. Indonesia is there it's just about time. that they blow up my personal experience. has not been that I mean maybe things. are changing now I mean this was also a. long time ago right like before Leo. which is. you know 13 years ago. so so things may have changed from a. tech talent pool but I don't think you. can find the same level of tech Talent.

Tech I'm specifically talking about. adds the scale and quality you have in. India okay the scale and quality is very. different right I think we can call. ourselves like best of the breed yeah. scale and quality in India right like 20. in 2000s I think India was more of that. you know low cost it was looked at that. it's not that anymore. entire engineering product teams.

all the tech stuff is in India complete. end-to-end end-to-end everything gets. done in India like we built in India and. then we obviously uh I mean it's part of. so India entity is a part of the US. entity so it's a subsidiary model but. everything is done here interesting okay. we'll come to plevo I want to complete. this loop on India so it spoke about. China we spoke about Brazil we spoke. about Indonesia what's the Indian. attitude now why do you think India will. win India obviously India apart from the. fact that okay our middle class is. growing we have the largest democracy we.

have uh foreign funds coming in. everybody's thinking that hey this is it. but why would you feel India will win. will I don't think so right India has an. opportunity to win which is why I said. we can't be complacent like will gets. into that complexity sort of mindset. right I think there's a great. opportunity to win because I think the. circumstances are like it's there are a. lot of cards that have aligned over the. last few years right. now I'm I'm I some people may not agree. I think the government has done a good. job in in whatever time frame at least.

that's that mindset like you know some. of the folks I see like it's like it's. like a company right. how do you think about getting. like in a startup you always think about. getting a players you see a lot of these. folks in the government today are a. players you know exciitians ex-foreign. ministers all of those sort of folks. right and when you look at them like. they're aspirational they're not like. you know there's one somebody else in. the government so very aspirational like. for example I was watching this video. where Sundar which I was on stage and. Ashwini vaishna was alongside him both.

of them are idiots yeah right so that's. very aspirational uh to look at that so. I think that I building that a player. team and mindset has been very critical. obviously a lot of geopolitical stuff. that has happened in the last two three. years with the China thing and you know. how people are discovering that's not. going in the right direction. and a lot of FDR Investments coming in. in India and I also feel like a lot of. uh that startup economy I still think. there is a lot of uh large conglomerates.

dominating the country but I think the. startup economy is done very well. although it's debatable how many of. these companies Will Survive but I think. it's a phase you go back and look at us. in the.com Era. that's how it was you know there was. a.com boom then a bust few companies. survived it so I always fit is right. it's capitalism essentially and then you. will see things maturing over the next. 10 15 years so I think India will go. through that phase as well. I think I would say India would cease. success and would have sort of arrived.

when there are more and more startups. that can call themselves you know. success like uh successful without VC. money okay right I think I think that's. how I would I would put it well why do. you want to okay tell me why do you want. to be successful without VC money is. there a is there anything wrong with. Missy money and getting successful no. because there's nothing wrong exactly. because I tell you right I was I was. reading about the top startups of the. world right. they all have taken external capital in. some of the other way and raised.

tons of money not small tons of. money and I've believed in themselves. for decades and keep pumping pumping. pumping eventually to make it sense one. day no absolutely and I know I don't. think there's anything wrong with VC. money VC money should be a lever or. should be thought as a lever to sort of. get to where you need to get right but. it cannot become a crutch. so so there's a difference right the. difference is if your business cannot. sustain without that money in the long. run that's Whenever there is a problem. because because there's at look at the.

end of the day it's that whole game VC's. model Works a certain way right they. have to get exits yeah and and at the. end of the day it has to come to public. markets or somebody has to acquire them. yeah those are the only two routes. there's no other route. if you're depending on somebody. acquiring you that's not in your control. if it's public market and you still. cannot create a business model. things will tank right you can still. inflate it till a certain point but at. some point it'll tank. but those are not the companies I'll. create the next wave of economy or the. the change we want in the country.

right so to be able to create that I. think there have to be meaningful. companies. who go public and then can sustain. themselves and then create that value. but I tell you here's what I'm just. asking you again because you understand. this much better than me. think about any company okay whether. it's a large conglomerate or a small. startup what essentially VC money is. saying VCS are saying that hey you're a. small guy yeah we know that you don't. have enough money as conglomerate you. can't fight with them but I think you. have a brilliant idea let me put you in.

a level field with a conglomerate let's. fight together sure okay that's exactly. what we see VCS do right or else let's. say a Reliance of the world or the or. the adanis of the world or the you know. around XYZ group of the world will. always come up with products because. they have hundreds of crores to pump in. yeah yeah right yeah so so they what we. see say you have an idea can you beat. them can you do faster can you do better. they have 100 crores we give you 60. crores yeah beat them in 60. if you do. that we'll give you 600 cross them.

yeah and that's essentially the whole. idea is so you don't know whether your. business is gonna make sense at the end. of the day or no you always work with. your thesis with your research with the. team for in a belief that one day it'll. make sense I'll give you an example. right there are there are two examples. which I really think and World. celebrates them that's why I really like. to put it out okay there's a there's. startable studio right have you heard of. it it's a Tata started that is something. like Zara but for tier 2 or 3 cities in. India sure okay they started their.

showrooms called zoodio it's a fashion. brand everywhere they opened like very. good very good looking showrooms and. then people buying it and then just I. think year two or year three they have. made it's it's like a thousand two. thousand crore Revenue business or. something more than that and they're. profitable it's crazy right everybody's. celebrity look what video has done look. what studio is done man we never thought. I've done exceptionally well they. learned everything from Zara and then.

they copy pasted everything right like. they say sure brilliant I agree with. that excellent execution right why is. nobody talking that the pump in 600. crores on day one yeah right sure they. it was Tata who had 600 crores to put in. the country to say that hey for a year. I'm just gonna open good stores I'm just. gonna focus on my supply chain and. sourcing and I just want to keep doing. it again and again and again that. eventually it makes sense so it made. money okay that's one second example was. have you heard of Mami Poco pants.

it's it's diaper it's baby diapers India. was dominated by Pampers and Huggies. right there was only so one Japanese. brand unicharm they decide that I Wanna. Go and Kill India and want to own the. market share in India for six years. every year they bleed 100 to 150 crores. every year just an advertising. distribution and trade discounts nothing. else sure it's like just branding. marketing branding marketing branding. marketing for six years we do this.

seventh year they're the market leaders. they absolutely dominate the market. where Huggies there was a point I think. Huggies and Pampers together didn't have. Market as much I think sure sure right. so six seven years it took them to go. and do the most boring business which is. gold which is gonna give them like 10 15. a bit at the end of the day sure so most. of the brands if you look at whether. it's conglomerates or startups you have. to in order to pump in money with some. idea with some gut for five six ten. years to make a place for yourself so.

what's wrong about it no I'm not denying. any of that in fact if you see jio or on. Amazon they've done the same thing right. so so I'm not denying any of that I. think one I am saying is. I think everybody starts with a VC thing. and saying there will be a light at the. end of the tunnel. and it we will become profitable or unit. economics will work out right. I think the companies that can do that. that's where the success is going to be. taxing for India to change as an economy. more and more companies have to get. across the other side of the tunnel got. it yeah today that's not the situation.

yeah right so so for example. if the if the country is still sort of. dependent on you know these kind of. companies and where the tunnel is not. crossed yet I I think there is still a. heavy Reliance on the VCS and that has. to change is what I'm saying right right. so there's nothing wrong with it and I. don't think it's easy to or I think it. may not even be possible to build a b2c. company at that scale without putting. that money in yeah so so I I think it's. probably required to be done and that's. where VC's model comes in.

but what I'm saying is I think the. question was. when do we think the economy can change. I think we need those startups to also. it cannot always be the moneys and the. adanis sort of dominating markets or. Taters for that matter dominating. markets there have to be more startups. dominating certain verticals and that's. when I think the entire economy will. sort of then there'll be more belief. that like you can take markets and be. Market leaders in there. that belief has to change right today I. think and it will happen in steps I. don't think I'm saying it'll happen.

overnight yeah so I think this phase has. to happen there'll be you know the the. best companies left some of the. companies will sort of uh. uh you know or most companies will. perish some companies will come out as. winners. but at the end of this. you know a few companies have to cross. the tunnel which startup do you feel is. is an underdog today uh at a large scale. some some name where people are still. doubting but you believe.

some industry or something uh but I. think one day it can work and India can. see that that's an interesting question. this I'll give you an example right. let's say I I genuinely believe that. you know like Nika will make sense in. long run like Niko's business model will. but I'm not sure Nike will yeah. that's what I meant key I think uh a. beauty Marketplace which has trust and.

the kind of trust which Nike has been. able to take in I think that's. tremendous and the kind the way the. whole country is progressing I don't. know who will win in this game whether. it's myntra beauty or Nike beauty or. Amazon launches with their beauty or. whatever I don't know but I think a. beauty Marketplace which eventually. become a thing because what Sephora did. in retail yeah I think somebody can do. that online yeah and I think I think. they're already. we're already seeing a lot a lot. happening in that segment yeah so yes. it's purple or Nike or whatever I don't.

know who but I think that business will. make sense there's a lot of disbelief. public marketers. I think eventually it'll make sense okay. on that note I think uh like did Mark or. quick Commerce startups there's a lot of. you know sort of dumping on them or push. back on them saying unit economics. workout okay but I think. and and they don't have this tier two. tier three coverage right now but if. your GDP go grows 3x. right people have more spending power. people will want that like I think it's.

already changed the habit for a lot of. folks especially in tier ones yeah right. so imagine if GDP grows and more people. get access to that I will somebody will. have to figure out how to make the unit. Economics work better right I think. companies like milk basket did that with. their you know morning delivery model so. there'll be some model that comes out. but I'm I'm like I'm a big user as well. of that service right even in the US. right they're trying to use blinkered. and some others have to now I use repto. and tsugi okay. and zepto right now blink it not much uh.

I don't know if they have a large. presence in Bangalore. um but but not so much but in the US. also there's instacart in this door Dash. I'm a big time user of both of those. Services right so. I think that model is here to stay I. don't think that model is going anywhere. I also think uh you know now we're. seeing a certain you know decrease in. Olas and Ubers. and everybody's saying like that model. will not survive I think that model. needs to exist yeah it's or else how. what will we do exactly I think that. model needs to exist I don't know in the.

current form or not but that model needs. to exist um I don't think Tesla full. self driving will take over India it's. difficult right in in us that can happen. Tesla's full self-driving taking taking. over time and the yeah yeah right yeah. so so that can happen I don't know in. India how that will work we will see. okay tell me tell me about your journey. a bit now okay I wanna know understand. how did you start exam simple languages.

or any other services right so when you. order something from them uh you get a. notification that the writers on the way. or yeah you need to call the driver for. example to talk to them the number is. not there are multiple use cases yeah. I'll go through each of these use cases. which we use as consumers day to day. right so when you call a driver number. that's not a driver's number okay. that's numbers powered by us. right that's called number masking so I. mask your number and I mask uh the. driver's number for two reasons one is.

privacy you don't want your number to. show up to the driver right and second. is like I also don't want you to skip me. like as Uber I don't want you to skip my. software and talk to the driver directly. um. it's called number masking use case so. companies like uber uh Ola globally. there are multiple other companies they. use they would use a company like livo. to power that service so we provide that. number right and when you actually make. the call we forward that call and take. care of all of that technologically. behind the scene it's all automated. within the app right that's one use case. the other use case is an OTP use case.

you install one of these messaging apps. or any app today. before 2011 or 2013. 13 12 11 whatever username was the main. thing now phone number is your identity. right and because of that like pretty. much. everybody wants to verify our number. that's why there's an OTP so we that's. our Second Use case for us we power OTP. globally in 190 countries for all these. Brands wow yeah I don't want to name. anybody specifically but pretty much all.

these Brands globally in in US India. Europe everywhere right so so that's the. second use case uh and third one is. notifications or you know loyalty alerts. WhatsApp SMS pay like you've bought. something or you left something in the. card you get reminders sure you know. close the deal or here is the discount. coupon and so on and so forth that's the. third use case so we power that entire. notification infrastructure for a lot of. companies globally so like I've tried to. keep it as simple as possible now that's. interesting I didn't know I thought. I thought Ola or Uber or zomato or these.

companies would have. their own system built in-house to mask. these numbers no I mean customers look. their business is you know ride sharing. or quick Commerce or what have you read. the business not customer engagement. yeah so so they still have to use third. party third party platforms or services. or softwares uh that all do all of this. like help them get to business faster. and you like you said right like they. are already trying to disrupt such a. hard space. so why do things that are not your.

course right so that's usually the. thought there are some companies that. may end up doing it but a lot of them. cannot because this also requires a. member. you are actually sending an SMS you're. actually making a call yeah actual phone. number this also requires a lot of you. know working with the carrier like. operators in each country tying up with. them the regulatory things if a brand is. multi-country then you have to do in. multiple countries now if my business is. something else why do I want to do all. this. there was no intention to start a. company it started with with its open.

source like we were an open source. project and and for folks who don't. understand what's an open source project. uh. think of it like you know there are. these social networks or they were. called social networks back in the day. called GitHub now GitHub is part of. Microsoft yeah okay where you can host. your code. source code like people who write code. they can host this source code okay and. in 2011 it was there was a social layer. to it like you could connect with people. follow them. but it's not used as much right uh now.

it's pure play look that's for Tech. folks right so this was where people. used to hang out back in the day so. levo started as an open source project. the code was it was just hobby project I. and my co-founder Michael we put the our. versions of our own code on GitHub okay. and we discovered each other from there. oh right so so company can never go. planning either this was in 2011 right. so it was just like I was very clear. I'll keep doing this.

low Bond lifestyle. and I said I will keep doing this. till we've I figured out what I want to. do okay so that was the whole thought. process and that's how we met right we. met on GitHub I saw his code he saw my. code I pinged him and said well looks. like we're doing something similar why. don't we do this together it's anyways. open source right so uh which means. there's no commercial model yet. so he said yeah he was in France right I. was in the states then in 2011 and I.

said let's start this out and see where. this goes so that's how the whole. journey started out nice initial days. yeah how big is your startup by the baby. how many people are there today with 300. employees so 300 people is also very. large organization right I don't think. it's very large when I compare it with. like other companies but yeah but no. that's what I'm saying is keep when you. are a 30 people team or a 50 people team. right you're so tight-knit yeah you feel. like you're part of something you're. making changes and you're creating an. impact yeah no matter it goes to 100 500. 300 whatever thousand ten thousand you.

automatically start losing the path and. you start losing the feeling that you're. a part of something how do you make sure. that you you continue making that part. that's a risk I think a lot of companies. go through I constantly think about it. every day almost right like so one of. the questions a lot of people interview. for our you know employees we want to. get on board ask me is uh you know. what's the biggest risk you see for blue. I think that's the biggest risk which is. as you should continue to grow employees. not losing that startup mentality and. mindset it's a culture once you lose.

that it's gone yeah right so even today. like our number one I I saw you know a. code outside we're not compared to. obsessed to a customer obsessed our. number one value is customer Obsession I. say the same thing internally also our. number one value is that right our. number two values that ownership mindset. and in ownership mindset what do we say. what we say is or what we look for is. everybody says you know we won't hire. problem solvers for us that's not the. Benchmark problem solver. for us the Benchmark is people with this. ownership mindset who can also notice a.

problem and then solve it the problem we. could find out. yeah so that's the mindset of people you. want to hire and as long as we can. continue to hire those people who. started mentalities then you have like. many business owners you can create pods. and teams around them or if your voice. so that's something we like I spend a. lot of time thinking about and talking. to my team as well so it's like build. mini teams in last team 100 like that's. the only way to solve this is the moment. and Amazon uses right the moment you.

move Beyond a certain size it. automatically breaks down that's the. reality of it 30 people have 30 babies. we've had that breakdown twice when we. were 30. then we went to 15 and then it. fixed again and then we scaled so even. at 38 breaks right like it has to be. around that you know 10 12 15 people. and make them ah I think you need to. have enough entrepreneurial people in. the company where you can build pods. around them.

mini CTO and in each of the parts right. while the titles may not be that oh. minus ownership okay tell me. tell me about it it's an interesting. question how do you think that AI will. disrupt your business or AI will be used. in Telecom industry or the industry that. you are in yeah I think AI will disrupt. every business. how will it destroy this is one of my. favorite questions these days that I'm. asking almost everybody how is AI.

changing your life or is going to change. your life has changed your life in some. way like tell me about it yeah I think I. think it will have significant impact I. feel I think in general Ai and this is. all gone relevant for us as well but in. general also I have been thinking about. this. in general I think companies will get. more much more leaner in terms of. personnel like what you can do with 3000. people sorry 300 people today okay right. uh versus what you can do with 300. people in two years with AI is going to. be again AI is going to be your biggest. exponential hierarchy yeah right so you.

can actually do 10x more with AI. right so whatever I mean I you know Mike. and I've been chatting about this. and can we you know. five extra Revenue. by incrementally just increasing team. size. right using AI so I think that's I think. is going to happen. most companies who have overhired will. struggle because they will you know get. disrupted by a smaller companies who can. use Ai and be more efficient so I think. that's one piece that will that will. change the game.

I I also think uh you know AI will bring. in a lot of especially in there are so. many things we don't do in in customer. engagement right so on the positive side. industry and sort of disrupted the ice. makers right uh. for us it's the EV moment for in AI so. we are also launching a lot of new. products. and uh when we launched those new. products but our philosophy new products.

is don't go create the market right. because we're not BC funded or we are. but like we are profitable we operate. like that right so we don't want to go. create markets we want to be in going. into established large markets and when. you do that how do you then still get. market share and grow the only way to do. that is you pick a niche and go deep. right to differentiate otherwise you'll. be me too right so so you pick a niche. and go deep and when you do that. how do you find your AV moment so that's. how you think about it right so when you. have existing markets that existed for.

30 40 years. we are thinking constantly on how do I. find my EV moment where I can like not. have the baggage of everything that's. been done in that industry for 34 years. and use AI to disrupt that right you'll. have still have to create you know those. metaphorically the the tires and this. you know steering for a car in like how. Tesla did so we'll have to still build. you know some basic stuff but we need to. figure out what's our EV movement and. disrupt that so that's I think the. second thing we think about yeah from an. AI perspective and I think uh third this.

may I'm not sure how relevant this will. be for us but I feel like. it will change VC funding dramatically. or or yeah so VCS a lot of money in the. VC industry goes towards late stage. companies today. right uh funding large companies and. large folks I think a lot of so large. ticket size Investments if that that's. right we're putting a soft bank or what. have you right I think uh in some b2c. areas you will still need to fund large. ticket sizes because. it's Capital intensive okay but I think.

uh a lot of areas like a lot of VC. models will evolve to funding leaner and. smaller teams but a lots of them so like. how y combinator does their investment. this is the move to that model because. they'll realize with the five people. team you can do a lot of things from A. disruption standpoint so their Capital. will start getting allocated in that. model interesting yeah using the go on. other days where big soft Bank tiger. Global things are happening it may still. happen from a B to C where you need like. just cap your Capital to create a market. but I think most.

other models most other models like in. the States you know I think staff Bank. also messed up a lot of uh you know just. got to putting too much money in right. now to I mean where it's become a sort. of a stigma saying if a stock SoftBank. funded I don't want to come join your I. don't want to touch you okay large. chance of blowing up right so every. software company is blowing up yeah. see the software and model you have to. understand the model right I mean I I. think I think uh you know the the. sis is different you've raised so much.

Capital if you don't deploy it how do. you show the ROI. right so so then your ticket size so. they dramatically inflate the ticket. side in the market SoftBank but then. that if you are if you are an. exceptional founder right and if you are. building an exceptional product or a. company right or a brand. that gives you so much opportunity to. become the world leader become absolute. category leader and destroy it like what. let's say imagine if jio was a startup. funded by SoftBank they would have done. exceptionally well like there's no data.

to prove that though like if you go back. and check most of the SoftBank startups. I think almost all of these startups. that have not worked out right it's. always been months of Bank Facebook back. by software Facebook I am not sure I'm. not sure I'm not sure Facebook Facebook. and and not the big guys I think I think. they were software or something I don't. know I am not I'm just asking yeah I'm. not sure let's say there's no SoftBank. big company who done Alibaba for example. I mean but look at okay there are some. successful ones but look at the number. of ones that have not been successful.

right but I thought the easy model works. right like you bet on 10 people but most. times you look at the data SoftBank. created a market or industry where if a. Founder needed 100 million dollars they. would come and say you know what's your. vision I mean that's why they call it. the vision fund what's a larger Vision. we want to put 500 million. so so more than the need when the money. comes in then your business plan has to. change because then how do you justify. that sort of fundraise so you need to. grow faster than a business plan changes. so you're trying to artificially induce. a lot of things which don't need to be. done right so the way you work story.

yeah so that and not a lot of those. stories right not just the wework story. a lot of those stories have happened. so so I think something of that sort has. happened in the industry with the. SoftBank investment thesis and I feel. like that will change nowadays with now. we see saying okay I want to invest. Capital efficiently but like lot many. more companies so if you have let's say. my average ticket size was 25 30 million. now I want to do like 5 million but in. 10 companies or eight companies like. that's how they will start thinking with. AI interesting take let's just see that.

I'm excited to see both yeah I really am. optimistic that one day there will be. some founder who will come with large. chunk of capital and absolutely dominant. the market in just a decade and like. become an absolute leader like what Geo. did I wanna I wanna see that happening. what Unilever did but no startup has. done that actually yeah yeah you said. Facebook facebook didn't raise bunch of. like large amounts that's what I'm. saying right so so I mean even Google. did not raise a large amount of money so. if you look at startups. most successful startups or almost all.

of them the ones that have gone to do. well have raised enough Capital not too. much capital. energy keeps raising top up top up top. but that's not like meaningfully not. yours not large enough right the number. they keep topping up after they hit a. certain Milestone instead of saying like. hey I want this is the plan for next 20. years and I want all money today yeah so. so I think I'm not sure if a startup. operator like jio would have done that. well if there is so much money I'm not. sure and that's what I'm saying I'm just. excited to see something like that.

happening because that's what happens. right right conglomerates they go and. decide that hey. now for next 20 years you want to own. India right that's what they talk about. right I was I was listening to this. conversation by a PNG guy uh AJ Lafley I. guess he wrote a book called playing to. win. and he was talking about it that PNG. Global U.S headquarters they decide that. Middle East India China like this is the. market like the Eastern Market is.

growing up okay the biggest chai the. biggest pie they're gonna get in. Philippines in India that's where they. thought it was because China obviously. close borders and stuff like that no. other country was big enough for. consumption pattern. and these were moisture countries anyway. where there are more more humidity and. moisture more consumption of consumer. goods happens right tropically tropical. countries so more consumer goods happen. like the detergent will sell more the. soap will sell more the uh the hair. growth will be more all of that will. happen right sure so it's not either in. countries and.

what's our plan our plan is in next 25. years we'll become leaders. for so first and then first 16 years. they were just putting money so PNG. decides she was 16 years I'm not gonna. make a pun like I'm not even gonna make. point of profit not even one percent of. profit what I want to do 16 years I want. to keep deploying deploying deploying. deploying and I want to enter like. everything I launch is going to be. number one in the country so I go and be. like hey the country has let's say surf.

Excel as a leader let me go blow on. Capital make Tide as the leader right. sure there's no product differentiation. yeah there's literally nothing right. then they're like okay I wanna own the. Shaving Market. there's like for next 20 years we'll. build a category and keep pumping the. money yeah so that's what large. conglomerates have always been doing.

I'm waiting for a startup to do this. because they come up with large pool of. capital. and they have a 20 or 30 year Vision to. own a country and become number one. owner countries wrong word wrong. sentence to say let's say to get a. significant pie in a country and become. like a market market leader sure no this. is where I'm saying I don't think it's. easy for a starter to do this because. the VC model doesn't work like that. right a VC model like they need to. return capital in four years in five. years is too aggressive but let's say 10.

years I read two funds are two times. like two cycles yeah right like so eight. to ten years they have to return money. they cannot think 20-year plans. right so that's the challenge there. which is why I said I think the. companies that become independent out of. VC model will be able to sort of create. their brand and vision right so that. dependency has to go out from the VC. model right like but conglomerates can. do that because they are thinking long. term thing okay tell me now that we're. talking about our last question for you. is tell me what do you think Indian. startups are doing wrong that is. affecting them.

to not achieve the kind of profitability. because there is. consumption going in the country there. is money getting pumped in the country. they're all the right Talent so there's. Talent there's Capital there's demand. going on why are we not able to achieve. the profit or why are we not able to. live up on the promises that the world. seizes for us though the promises that. we see for ourselves I don't think. startups are doing much wrong like I. think it's just a cycle like I said.

earlier right like uh you know generally. startup economies go through from with. these Cycles they're in that early phase. of the cycle where the startup economy. is just getting created right and if you. see like most of the end you can go back. 20 years to the US markets and you'll. see similar Trends most of the companies. today and in the India space are b2c. there are very few B2B companies and. whatever B2B companies exist uh you know. in India incorporated in India or in. with an office in India the serving. outside India consumption also for. software or B2B stuff is minimal okay so.

I think it's it's the first cycle of how. I report it I think the next phase is. going to be. some players from the first cycle come. through. there's going to be more investment in. b2c which I think will require VC. funding there's no running away from. that because you will have to create. that market over time. I think when the GDP grows and the. economy grows a lot of. people who are not accessible to the. startup Community will be available now. like that skewed component of people so. out of you know uh 140 billion in terms.

of uh you know accessible numbers. people talk about like numbers being. super small right like 10 crores or. whatever is what is accessible today is. what they say so right so if that number. has to increase right and and and then. only then you can even think about like. profitable tax and you know your LTV. going up and and all of that right today. I think what is happening is to acquire. that customer there is so much money. being thrown in but then you're not able. to read the rewards over time. in the b2c market right when the economy. changes per capita changes all of that.

that mindset will change you said uh you. know something about. uh earlier you to think if I want to pay. 15 20 bucks extra for a zepto order. right and now today you don't care you. want it there I think that habit has to. change in the larger scale of things. right so so I think that one will change. uh that's b2c I have a very strong. opinion on B2B and I've seen this. happening in the US is B2B I think India. I personally feel will go through two. phases there was this U.S Israel model. first where you know startup model where.

U.S is your HQ Israel is your r d Center. we like with levo we are in the model of. U.S India model right where us is our HQ. and India is our R D um. I think the first phase of B2B companies. will be that there will be a lot more. B2B companies that will come in with. this model U.S India model because U.S. is the largest B2B sort of uh Market. yeah if you will right uh from like. where you can sell to uh Europe I think. is the second but U.S is the largest. market India market doesn't exist today. so I think there'll be a uptick on that. market right now in in terms of uh you.

know how companies will scale and I. think there'll be a second phase that. will come in for B2B where local. consumption of B2B will increase because. today I think it's that build build. versus buy mentality it's all about like. exactly right. I want it at cheap cost so so I think. that will also change and that mortality. yeah over time so B2B second phase. example that will change and then when. there's local consumption happening in. B2B is where the real B2B change will. happen.

so that's a long journey I think uh I. think it will take time I don't think. there is any shortcuts uh we have just. picked our business model and markets to. be such where we don't have to sort of. be. you know in this other space or race. and we are you know serving you don't. have competitors like how many people. are there yeah there's a lot of. competitors like we're not the not the. market leader we have a lot of. competitors and our uh largest. competitors in the US. we have competitors in India also in. fact when we decide when we start this.

out right the thought process was. and we said 2011 I'm talking about we. said Indiana. and we picked the market and focused on. that market India focusing here what's a. revenue split between India and the US. India is like I would say minuscule U.S. markets are almost. uh. 60 Revenue. all right India's minuscule we are now. we have a local entity in India we've. gotten the regulations and Regulatory. approvals and all that so we will now. start focusing on India because next. five years next five seven years we are.

big on India as well right India is. going to be a very large ecosystem for. all of our stuff and we are launching. more solutions so when that comes in. that'll I think create more excitement. and interesting yeah and revenue from. there perfect pleasure talking to you. man like it was amazing thanks for. giving us about the way you hire the. exponential things that you told about. then giving it some sense on how India. China Indonesia Brazil America works I. really enjoyed our conversation thank. you so much for watching this episode.

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can give so many ideas and even if you. use one idea and implement it you can. change your life your family's life and. achieve the Indian dream that we all. want to achieve thank you so much until. the next episode keep figuring out. [Music]. foreign.