How To Make Your Brand Go Viral & Turn Views Into Sales | Kent Yoshimura | FO587 Raj Shamani

You're one of the fastest growing D2C. brands in the world. Tell me what's the. smartest thing you did in Neurogun, [music]. which a new founder can copy and the. world doesn't know about. We got. creators and we used affiliate marketing. to a degree incentivized those. influencers to be able [music] to make. money on every single sale you're doing. Like our top creators made like $150,000. in a month. No way. That's a CEO salary. There has to be something which would be. of like blow up moment. It's easy to. break down a company into [music] five. different sections. There's ops, sales,

finance, marketing, and then leadership. Everything you're doing to grow the. business should be within all those. frameworks and how those frameworks. [music] communicate with each other. And. we hire those people into the team. And. we thought of a organizational framework. like the business took off. So, how do. you hire? What do you look for people? Trust. Is it a person that you have. trust in from an experiential level, but. also a personal level? Two, is there. humility involved? Is this person. willing to admit their mistakes so that. they could learn from it? Which leads. into the third thing, finding a problem. solver. Tell me three values that you as.

a brand stand for. When we build out our. brand book, we talk about do we have. calm leadership? We should always be. able to solve any problem with a smile. on our face. Humility. Do all of us, no. matter what position we're in, understand that every level serves. others. It is. And the last one, funny. enough, is kaizen. It is progress over. perfection. to improve every single day. versus chasing perfection is a better. mantra for life because there is no such. thing as perfection. >> Someone who want to become an.

entrepreneur wants to build a brand. What do [music] you think? What is the. next category where somebody could build. a billion dollar brand next? >> I do think in the future stress is going. to be a very very big thing. So [music]. any product that satisfies I think will. be very very big. And usually throughout. the history, sex, stress, sleep, these. are like three biggest markets. No. matter what you do, >> that's never going to change, by the. way. [music]. >> Yeah. What's the most expensive mistake. you made during your neuro career?

>> With our trademark, a company owned by. someone worth $100 million came in and. sued us. I I mean, it would have. bankrupted our company. >> I have a small favor to ask you. I need. you to subscribe to our channel. The. more subscribers we have, the better and. bigger guests we can bring and provide. you more value through these. conversations. And the full audio. experience of this show is also. available on Spotify where you can.

follow us and listen to the new episodes. as well. In 2020, two founders walked. onto Shark Tank and rejected a $1. million offer. Today, their functional. gum company has done $1 135 million in. sales and sits in more than 20,000. stores across the US. Today's guest is. Kent Yoshimura, co-founder and CEO of. Neuro. In this episode, we'll discuss. what are the three psychological. triggers they use to make people buy.

How did one of their creators make. $150,000. in a single month selling gums? How did. they build an army of 2500 creators to. market and make their products viral all. around the internet? How do you get. other brands to distribute your product. for free? And how did one lawsuit almost. shut down Neuro their entire business? Watch this episode till the end. And to.

know more about Nuro, check the link in. the description below. So, let's break it down for every. entrepreneur who's watching this cuz you. guys are obviously killing it. Everyone. at this point, whether you're available. in their country or not, people have. heard about you, right? If they're. online, they've seen some version of. this either through ads, through creator. armies or like fake. >> or fake [laughter] like some. right? Like people have figured out. you're. >> you're one of the fastest growing D2C. brands in the world.

>> Mh. >> And you're [clears throat] profitable. That's unheard of. And you're creating a. new category which is even more. difficult, right? You're not in a. category where like, oh, this is energy. drink. It's always been there, so here's. another one. Like, it's this is some new. >> So, you guys are killing it. >> Tell me what's the smartest thing you. did in Eurogum which a new founder can. copy. >> and the world doesn't know about it. >> That the world doesn't know about. I. think. I think the biggest thing with.

entrepreneurs sometimes is they go in. with so much confidence that they think. they know what's right. And I think. understanding your weakness is one of. the most important things because when. you lay out and same with martial arts, right? Like you when you're in a fight, the first round is usually trying to. figure out, okay, these are the type of. strikes, type of movements that the. opponent is doing, and then you adjust. effectively to it. for us. If you. understand your weakness as an. entrepreneur, then you know the right.

people to hire to make up for it. And so. you can't have egos that are involved. And sometimes for a lot of people, like. most brands, it's how do I get that. initial impact of a brand? So they. partner with a celebrity because it's. very easy to get that impression base. For some people, it's operational. So. they hire in like a president or a COO. that could effectively run the business. And you know for us the impact piece. wasn't the most important but getting. that word out from the impact piece at. an operational level was the key thing.

So as we started hiring people whether. it's finance or ops you know it's easy. to break down a company if you're a new. budding entrepreneur into like five. different sections. >> Yeah. There's ops, sales, finance, um, marketing, and then leadership to. tie all those pieces together. Everything you're doing to grow the. business should be within all those. frameworks and how those frameworks. communicate with each other.

So that's it. That's it. And it could be. one person, it could be I mean, >> so that's what you did. You found out. people in the beginning. >> Yeah, we um, you know, I think well, this is a less than 3 four years. And. you know, I think fighting is a a solo. sport. So I think I grew up like. thinking I could do this all by myself. with my co-founder, you know, and the. reality was when we raised a little bit. more money 5 years in and we hired those.

people into the team and we thought of. an organizational framework of like. these are the people that are best at. their pillars and their departments and. they're all communicating with each. other. like the business took off. H. But then [snorts] when you talk about. business taking off, there has to be. something which was which would be a. like blow up moment. What smart thing. did you do there which helped you blew. up? Like what worked in your favor? >> So the biggest thing for us, well there. were a few big things. So like you know.

obviously Shark Tank and Joe Rogan I I. would say is uh timing meets like right. the right decisions and luck and all. that stuff I was talking about. Um, Tik. Tok when it first came out, there's. always an opportunity with new. platforms. >> And this is the same with AI and any. like literally any business in history. >> There are people who think a little bit. differently. There's no laws written. like there's no laws with AI right now. There are, but they're not. There's not,

right? So, they'll break all the rules. as they're building their business, building the business until things catch. up to them. I'm not saying we're breaking rules. [laughter]. or loss. [gasps] But with Tik Tok, are. you sure? [laughter]. It was on camera with uh. >> Tik Tok. >> Tik Tok there was a new platform. There. was an entire creator ecosystem. And we. used affiliate marketing to a degree in. the past, but not at the scale Tik Tok.

was building it. And it became obvious. to us that if we figure out the. psychological triggers that get people. to buy on a social media platform where. they stick on even just for like 2 3. seconds that we could capture their. attention and then get them to like hear. us out. We know we could sell our. product. So, every single day, my uh. head of growth, who runs our TikTok, who. was an Amazon guy before, and I, New.

Year's resolution, like a few years ago, we're like, let's post every single day. on Tik Tok and figure out what hooks. work with our products so that we could. build the psychological trigger base. that we could apply to everything else. in the business as marketing. And so we. did that immediate like a month later we. go viral viral viral viral like it's. like back to backtoback videos and we're. like okay we figured something out then. we got creators of. >> this is your own platform.

>> our own platform well this is on Tik Tok. but platform. >> like your own channel on the on Tik Tok. and you just okay. >> and now Tik Tok's massive on Tik Tok. massive [gasps]. >> but you know in many ways we built the. brand like we built guide for a lot of. that stuff. You know, there's. >> So, every day, how many posts, how many. Tik Toks were you pro promoting or. producing? >> So, at our peak, we had 2500 creators. I. think we have 2500 creators.

>> No, before creators, just you when you. were doing. >> Oh, like three, four, five like posts. Nothing crazy. >> Okay. So, four posts a day every day for. 30 days and you were just trying. different different kind of hooks, different kind of things. What worked in. your favor? Give me top three lessons. that anybody can steal right now. >> So there's different psych. So there's I. keep using the word psychological. triggers, but it is true. Like when you. go to someone and it's like the art of. selling comes from do you feel left out? Oh my god, everyone else is taking your.

gum, but I'm not taking it right. There. is like um that component of it. There. is insecurities. So oh my god, I feel so. tired and I don't have the like I. stumble over my words. um is there a. product out there that could help me. have the confidence to be able to get. rid of my brain fog so that I could. speak better and then there's other. psychological triggers like uh this is. if I don't have this my I am missing out. on some it's similar to FOMO but at a.

self-improvement level which is all the. biohackers. >> okay give me tell me more about this I. got the left out and then the insecurity. and what's this one. >> left out the insecurities. um like uh it's it's similar to being. left out but left being left out is a. social construct. >> Yeah. >> Another one is tapping into and this is. a combination of probably left out and. insecurity but another psychological. trigger that we tapped into the.

biohackers with is I am trying to. maximize my day but I am having the. inability to do so because something is. missing in my life. So how do you fit. into that? It's a self-improvement. construct. >> Interesting. >> Do you remember any hook from each one. of them so that I can get an example? >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. So tell me one example for left. out. How do you create. a a Tik Tok or a real or a video where. you are able to communicate or give. people FOMO that hey everyone else is.

taking and I'm the only one who's who's. loser who's not taking it. >> The easiest way to do it if you have. good media is get the PR that you need. So, it's like Time magazine's talking. about it. Kim Kardashian is posting. about it. Joe Rogan is talking about it. You've seen it on Shark Tank, right? There's all this earned media all of a. sudden and like and then you show all. these people like chewing it like these. famous people especially chewing the. product and then all of a sudden you're. like if famous people are chewing it why.

am I not [laughter]. you know and that almost plays into the. other one on the self-improvement piece. an example of the self-improvement. Have. you seen Limitless? >> No. >> The movie? >> No. >> Um, with Bradley Cooper, it was a pill. that makes you a genius. So, you take. So, the. >> I know about it. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, the the hook was just like the. Limitless pill is here now. >> Oh, >> the real life limitless pill is here. So, now that's not feeling left out or. an insecurity. It's oh my god, I could.

be limitless, right? So, that's another. hook. That's like that something is. missing out kind of thing. >> Yeah. Like but for yourself. >> Yeah. >> Not within a social construct. >> Okay. Yes. >> And then that last one, the insecurity. is like I mean how you're you're still. 29 so you probably don't get these ads. I'm 38. I get ads on my Instagram for. hair loss, my dick not working, [laughter].

uh like all those things, right? Like. marriage counseling. Those are all like. small like those are insecurities that. people once they get into their older. age field. So like I'm the perfect. audience. Like I mean I have hair and. you know everything everything's fine. but [laughter]. but um I'm getting targeted and I'm sure. the second you turn 35 you're going to. get those ads too. >> Yes. >> Cuz those are insecurities that people. have deep down in them that they're like. okay I need to be able to fix. >> Right. So,

>> so that audience you tapped on with gum. >> and the way you tap into it for us is. >> like what were you saying like what give. me a. >> like an example? >> Yeah, give me an example. Give me a. sample. >> I'll give you I'll give you two. examples. One that's you know reasonable. and one that's more on the extreme side. >> Okay. Give me both. So [snorts] on the. reasonable side, uh, for us, it's like. if you're going on a date and you don't. have the confidence because you're. stumbling over your words, you're tired. after a full day, anything, this is a.

product that you could chew right. beforehand, and your words will come out. like free flowing. Like you'll you'll. have the confidence, the energy, and the. focus to be able to crush it in that. moment before you're going. And you see. with India marketing too before going. into a meeting or a podcast like this I. pop a piece and I'm locked in. I'm ready. to go you know. So you're going to crush. your job interview. You're going to. crush your promotion. You're going to. crush your So. that's it. That's having that conf. It's.

it's less so insecurity. It's building. that confidence. But that's also. expanding into you know there's been. evidence around caffeine and elenine. like we have science backing on. everything that we do. The clinical. trials have showed that this helps. people with their focus problems. So. what's a focus problem that people have? ADD ADHD. And when you're have ADD ADHD. and you have dopamine cuz you're doom. scrolling all the time and you can't. focus. And because you can't focus,

other things in your life are suffering. and you're struggling to be able to do. things. We're a product that could come. in and help you fix that. >> So you could anchor that insecurity. into anything, right? The the through. into everything. >> Interesting. Okay. So this is I I love. this by the way. This psychological. triggers. So this is what you would do. every day. four or five content pieces. You would try out these different.

things. Either the left out insecurities. or something is missing. These three. things you would tap on and you would. find out the winning ones. So you would. go viral again and again again. >> and then the creators came in. Right. >> Exactly. >> So what happens with the creator? What. was. >> you have this. >> and you create these hooks that are. actually working and make sense. How do. you deploy that into an army of people. that can now do it times 2500? >> Yeah. [laughter] You know, so now all of. a sudden, like the reason you've. probably seen the content is because.

as one brand, you could only have so. much budget and so much creative content. to create yourself. If you expand that out into a network of. sales people and marketing people that. are using these triggers to communicate. that out for you, now all of a sudden. you're amplifying and multiplying your. message by tens of thousands fold to. what you're doing. So how are you. effectively doing that? You know, in. anything that you do, there's different.

ways to do it. It doesn't have to be. creators. Like. >> give me step by step. What did you do. exactly? I understand that the moment. you multiply it by 2500, it's going to. go bonkers, right? Because you already. have the winning formula that what is. working, what's going viral, you're just. going to give those as a sample things. to your creators and be like, "Hey, use. one of these. We know it works. Just go. crazy.". >> And when it goes viral, you spend ads. behind it, right? So, and then it keeps. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, that part like just tell. me everything. Okay. So, you get you get. 2500 creators at once. How did you.

design this? Who runs this? Who what was. the first step? like I want to know. everything. So, our head of growth, Jonathan, um there's different creator. networks that you they're all pretty. small, but there are different creator. networks um and affiliate networks that. turned into creator networks. Like, it's. not necessarily a new idea, right? You. have influencer programs and things like. that, but if you incentivize those. influencers to be able to make money on. every single sale you're doing, but we. give you the playbook on how to do it.

because we know it's going to go viral. Then it's easy to replicate it across. the board. So through that process, we. were already going viral, so it was easy. to get creators in and you have a. Discord and all the creators are. talking. >> So what did you do? How did you get. those creators in and did you pay them. up front? Did you ask them to join your. affiliate program? Like what was it? >> So if you could create the most. effective referral program in the world, how would you do that? And that's our. next step. >> Yeah. >> That we're thinking of in the company.

>> Okay. >> But let me take a step back. Let's start. with. >> Yeah. uh and the US market and any. social media platform by the way right. at the end of the day that where you. could track sales. >> you could tap into any influencer. network or creator network that exists. now for us those things didn't really. exist so we had to grab people from. influencer networks there were already. small creator programs so we grabbed. from like 10 different creator programs. to create our initial army. start a channel where they're all. talking to each other that you could.

feed them content from and this is. something Funny enough that I learned. from the NFT days. Did you ever do NFTs? >> Yeah. Yeah. I lost tons of money in. that. [laughter]. >> Yeah. Me, too. Me, too. You and me, brother. >> Big trauma back. >> Remember you were in a Discord? >> Yeah. >> And you're like, >> I'm just waiting for the drop. >> They're waiting for the drop. GM. GM. And then the second a drop happens, everyone's talking about it. Same. psychology. How are you creating a. community of people that are waiting for. the next viral hook or something to drop.

or the next product or you know you're. constantly feeding them content but. they're all talking to each other. So. now the creator is like hey this worked. for me this you're creating a flywheel. within its own community of creators. that is figuring out it's almost like. machine learning. They're figuring out. on their own what hooks are working and. what's not. You just have to feed them. the right content to be able to do so. For us, we had Joe Rogan talking about. us already, Shark Tank, Kim Kardashian.

posting. Now, we have all these things. from before, the first 5 years that we. fed into this platform. And if you're a. new budding entrepreneur, you don't need. those things, but you have the. psychological triggers. If you have the. initial seed of virality that you can. feed into people and you know it works. cuz you test it yourself, have them try it and have them blast it. out and if it works, you put ads behind. it because you know that that hook that. whatever creator did is working. Now. that creator goes and it's like, "Hey. guys, I just made $100,000 off this one.

video. You guys should try a variation. of this video." All these people are. creating variations. Sometimes they're a. little bit different and then that. little bit different starts working. also. So now they take that little bit. different thing and the next creator. starts building off that and the next. builder. Do you see how it starts all. linking together, >> right? And then the biggest, you know, the biggest thing you have to. do now as a person that runs that. affiliate channel is how do you. consistently keep them motivated? So now.

we have incentive programs. Do you have. a chance to win an iPad if you hit this. GMV gross merchandise value? you could. uh win a trip to Miami with all the. other creators. Like we would set up. parties. We would rent a house and set. up parties where like hundred of the top. creators all get to hang out with each. other and everything is paid for. You. know, [gasps]. now it turns into this community of. people that are talking. They love your. product. They're angant to your product. and they're selling selling selling and. they're making money off you. It's like. a self-replicating.

platform. >> Intent. You don't need to do that at. 2500 creators, but you could do it in. your own backyard with your own. community, in your own village, your own. city, your own town, whatever it is. How can you get 10 people to love your. product and those 10 people are at least. creating enough content and telling. enough people that they're referring. that product more and more and more? Virality comes from the word viral. In. the same way, how do you allow a message. to spread effectively?

>> Nice. Nice. What did you do exactly? So. you were in Tik Tok. Yep. >> And then how did you get these creators? Did you DM them? Did you. >> like build a community? What was what. exactly did you do? You and your head of. growth. >> So Tik Tok or Tik Tok shop already had a. creator sampling program that a lot of. people weren't using. So the first bit. was and it's a little bit different now. So I'll I'll frame it in two ways. When. we first started, we were sampling out.

to the creators that existed into our. platform. And then once they got the. samples and we were communicating with. them, we brought them into our own. communication platform, our own Discord, so we could control the narrative on. things. And then those creators, if they. were, it goes from like L1 to L7, like. different levels, right? >> How many were them? How many did you get. them on your Discord? >> I mean, at the beginning, it was only. like 100 or like 200. It's not that. many. >> And how many levels were there in 200. creators? So level one to level seven. and level seven you get the highest.

commission but everything in life I. would say is about incentives. How are. you incentivizing people effectively? Right? >> So give me level seven levels of your. commission. >> So really like level one to level three. I would say well I'll just give you. three layers of of commissions because. it gets a little bit more nuanced. >> Level one you create videos for us and. you'll get 10% commission you know on. sales you make. But how do you know that. the sales coming directly from that. link? >> Because it's associated on Tik Tok at.

least is associated with their product. card. >> Okay. >> And their creator profile. >> Uh Meta [clears throat] has the same. thing. Meta has like creator uh. performance channels. Now, if you're. doing referrals, you have like referral. links, you know. So, there's a product. card that people could click into and if. they make a sale, they make 10% off that. sale. If they hit a certain GMV, let's. say they do $500 in sale, we'll give. them a bonus and then they can move up. to level two. >> At level two, now you're operating on a.

retainer. We'll pay you $500 a month and. then we'll give you 12% commission. So. now you're motivated as a level one. creator to be like, all I need to do is. hit $500 in GMV. I'm going to make as. much videos as possible that work until. I hit that GMV value. Level two, now you. have to hit $25,000 in GMV, but you're. getting paid at least $500, so you're. motivated. But if you don't hit that GMV. within a certain time frame, you drop. back down to level one. So now it's a. game. And then level three, we're paying.

you. >> And in in $500, how many videos do they. have to pro put out? So typic in the. past it wasn't like we we didn't have. any goals like because people were so. incentivized but now we have like you. have to at least create four videos per. week minimum. They have to be different. hooks and um you have to make at least. this GMV. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Uh that's how it is now. >> And what's the GMV now? >> So. >> in level two and level one as well. >> So level one let's say $500. This could.

be different for different products by. the way but for us it was pretty low. It. was like $500 to get to level two. >> Okay. $500 per month. >> Per month. >> Okay. That's. >> Oh, no. Not even not even per month. It. was like hitting the $500 mark threshold. like when you're selling our product. >> Okay. From from beginning till the time. like the moment you hit Oh, interesting. >> And then and then now it's time based. once you start getting to higher levels. by the way. >> Okay. So then in level two you have to. continue to keep making how much for you. to get like $500 a month. between level.

one, level two, level three, there's. basically a breakout that's similar to. like $500 or like $2,000 or like. whatever that GV is, right? But it's. similar commission level, >> but you get a little bit more perks as. you go up. >> Okay. And what's in level three? So in. level two, you get $500 and 12%. commission. >> Uh yeah, so 12 15 I say these numbers. for myself, but it could be anything. depending on what your margins are. So. level the psychology is what matters. right with the creators level four to.

level five like level three level four. level five like whatever that second. tier is now they get a retainer so. they're motivated because they get paid. no matter what. >> But then on top of the payment they have. a higher commission rate. So from. whatever 5% 10% 10% now you're going to. 15%. You're making more money and you're. getting paid. So now you're motivated to. be like, "Dude, this is like a real job. and I get paid even more.". >> Yeah.

>> Level three, we're paying you $3,000 a. month. That's a real job. >> That's [laughter] what it was. That's. crazy. >> You have to make these number of videos, but if you don't hit your goals within a. month, that's when time comes into play. cuz [snorts] we're paying you, but if. you don't hit these goals within a month. or a quarter, like in the first 3. months, you drop back down. >> And then if you're not hitting those. goals, you drop back down again. >> So there's two layers that are tugging. at you. It's like I have a fear of. losing my position in the rankings. Also, you start becoming like a.

celebrity. By the way, like in the. creator community, you can imagine if. you're a level seven. >> Yeah, right. >> Yeah. >> I'm making all this like our top. creators made made like $150,000 in a. month. >> No way. [laughter]. >> That's been easy. Yeah. >> He was making. >> That's like a tech guy's job in one. month. That's a CEO salary. [laughter]. >> [gasps]. >> So he's a celebrity obviously, right? And in the creator community he's like, "Oh, Espanzie, like that's the guy that. made that's making all this money on. Neurogum, which is very helpful to us.

now." He was like, "I can make that much. money selling Neurogum. Like we're going. to join Neurogum even as like a level. one person cuz I can work my way up.". >> So. >> to reframe it again, how are you. creating enough incentive structures. with your margin structure, your. finances, everything? And again, the. commission, if you're selling a $300. product, you're not giving 10%. commission. you're giving 5% commission, right? We're selling a $30 product, so. whatever it is, right? But. >> but you can sell way more of our product. than a $300 product.

Same way, how are you building the right. incentive structure from level one who. sees the level seven people making all. this money? And it's like, oh, I just. need to keep making videos, keep making. videos until I hit $500 GMV. Now I move. up a level. Now I'm getting paid. I keep. making more level seven. And then the. level seven people want to stay on top. >> Yeah. [laughter] So that's cutthroat. competition. Once you get level seven, what's the drop off? I don't I don't. think there'll be like a big drop off. >> Uh you know, they need to keep making.

the videos and you keep making the. hooks, but you keep the creators on. because there needs to there's still a. GMV amount that they need to make. It's. just much much higher. >> Yeah. >> So if you're not making, you know, I. think for us now it's like $10,000 GMV. It's still not that crazy, but if you're. not making a certain GMV amount, you. drop down. >> a level. So, you're constantly fighting. for positions. But in that same vein, if. you're a level five to level seven. creator, we're inviting you to that. house in Miami. You know, we're giving.

you like cool gifts. You're giving you. bonuses on top of like GMV goals you hit. in specific time periods. Like, there's. different ways that like we have like a. Christmas launcher for example. So from. uh this time period to this time period. for Black Friday, if you hit this GMV. goal, we give you an extra thousand. dollars. >> So how you creating the right incentives. as you scale to make sure people are. creating product training videos for. you.

>> So how do you incentivize energy drinks? Because that's I would assume it's not. like a D2C product. It's more like a. retail product. Those are all the. retainer creators. because it's going into retail, but they. have incentive structures in the back. So, similar to us cuz we're now more and. more in retail. >> Mhm. >> What are the incentive structures and. pushes to push people into Walmart or. Costco or CVS or Whole Foods, wherever. it is, right? It's still the same psychology and still. the same foundation, but you are still.

paying these creators an L7 creator or. whatever it is to talk about your. product. And one new thing we're doing. right now, if you find a top product, try to see if you can just get your. product alongside that top product. If. someone's talking about Bloom, sample. Neurogum to them also, so that Neurogum. just shows up in their video as well. You know, it's cuz it's probably similar. audiences. >> Yeah. >> But they're getting the attention. already. We have this great partnership.

with a company called Carpet. They uh do. deodorants. They do $100 million just at. Target. They realized having Neurogum in their. ads as like a free offer brought their. return on ad spend u well increased. their return on ad spend significantly. So they've spent over $2 million on this. ad that has Neurogum in it. >> So we just get all the benefits for them. advertising our product because it. benefited them.

>> So Tik Tok is becoming interesting. Like. all these channels are becoming so. interesting where you could tap into. other people. You just have to find the. right places where you could get the. right number of impressions to the right. audience. >> This is super interesting. This I've. never heard the partnership model. Explain. Tell me more about if somebody. wants to tap on this. uh what do you do. like you go to the to the brands which. already super successful or like killing. it or crushing it and how do you partner. synergize and what's in it for them to. put you on the shelf because you're a. successful brand I'm talking about let's.

say I'm starting this new brand and then. there is no incentive for me or there is. no incentive for you to come partner. with me right. >> right so how do I convince you to put my. products in your videos what's how do I. explore partnerships. >> I mean you have to start somewhere so a. lot of you know when we're talking about. how do you kick off a company, you get. the awareness. So, K2O. um the. chief revenue officer at Mary Ruth, which was a top product. >> Mhm. >> Um great guy, left and start KTO with uh.

Kylie Kylie Jenner. >> Um. Jay Hunter. Uh started with Kylie. Jenner. That was his initial catalyst to. get a really hard launch to be able to. get other creators involved with him. >> Right? So what is that catalyst moment? Like if you're launching a product. everything like a rocket needs fuel to. launch off, you know, like a rocket. that's sitting on the ground is useless.

You still need to find that effective. thing to get it going. And then in that. moment where you're like launch is the. most exciting part, you're taking off. You go find other brands. If that's your. model, you go find other brands to. partner with and start sampling to. You. start looking at creators and you start. creating like a really. appetizing incentive program to get them. involved. You have to find like the. right moment. So like uh for us for.

example like three examples of big. moments as a brand our size and then. I'll go and talk about a new brand. We went back on Shark Tank twice, right? So we were the only brand in Shark Tank. history to not get a deal the first time. and go back on Shark Tank again. We knew. that that was a really big moment. So we. got all of our creators being like we're. going back on Shark Tank. Now all of our. creators are like what? Oo, this is a. big moment. Everyone's going to be. hearing about us. They tapped in. We. built a campaign and pushed the product. out then.

>> So that's a big moment. >> Um. we knew we're launching this new product. sour. >> Yeah. >> So you know a few weeks ago I went in. and spoke to like 500 creators or. something being like we're launching. sour. This is what the launch plan is. We're doing all these activations and. we're giving incentives for the first. week to push where you get an extra x. amount of dollars if you push the sour. product and you make sales. Now. everyone's excited. That's part of like. a launch strategy. So people get. involved and jump right in and they go.

really really hard. And then again, how. do you take that leverage? And then I. guess for like a third thing, if you're entering into a retail store, we were entering into Costco. That was a. really big thing. Costco is like the. biggest retail, one of the biggest. retailers in the world. How are we. building incentive structures? We're. paying people now, not even just. retailers. If you talk about Costco in. your video and you get a certain amount. of views, we'll give you an extra $100. So now everyone's like, they're going to. Costco, get an extra $100. Yeah. Well, of course.

>> That is retainer plus the extra cost. because that you can't track through. affiliate links, right? >> Yeah. Exactly. >> Yeah. So they're not going to get. commission, but they're going to they're. on your retainer, so they're a. community, so they'll do it. >> Exactly. [clears throat] And for us, it's like we were going to pay that. amount for marketing anyways. [laughter]. These people talk about it. And. depending on the level of creator you. are, you know, or like a influencer you. are, you obviously get more money or not. like based on your reach. >> So for a new brand, what is that? You. can't expect to make the greatest.

product in the world and think. everyone's going to love it and know. about it and learn about it right off. the bat. You have to create some. catalyst for people to know about your. product. So, some of the more creative. things I've seen with launch plans, obviously there's the celebrity launch. plan. K2O did a great job um by getting. Kylie Jenner obviously involved. >> I've seen other brands that would do a. big launch at something like a CES like.

David Protein. Do you know David? Peter. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, his co-founder is an investor. in us. Uh Jared at RX Bar, but um and. they crushed it in the bar space, right? >> They killed it. >> Expo West. Genius, right? They didn't exhibit at. Expo West because they were too small, but they rented a truck, like a massive. like semi whatever. You know, one of. those big trucks that had like a jacked. cow on the side of it and all it did was.

just drive around the biggest CPG. convention. It just drove around over. and everyone was talking about it. because they were just like [laughter]. what the what is that? [gasps]. >> And that is your community. You're not. even there. So people are looking for. you too cuz it's like oh what is that. David Pro? They realize you're not even. there so they go out and find you. somewhere else. Genius. Genius. Genius. This is in Wow. I didn't know this. It's. a freaking billboard that they're. driving around to their community. All.

all the retailers are there talking. about their new protein bar and then. like they didn't even have to pay. $50,000 for a booth. They took that. $50,000 and they're like we're going to. put advertising on the side of a truck. instead that's just driving around for 3. days straight. [laughter]. >> Nice. And this would be as like dirt. price. >> Yeah. It's like it would have been the. same price to get less impact. >> Yeah. >> And now they're doing this and then now. obviously everyone's like, "Holy. that's genius. I'm going to write about. it." No, all these news articles are.

being written about it. People are. talking about it. >> So what is that? Like whatever you're. creating, >> you have to just be creative and think. what is that thing that's different. You. >> think differently, you know, Steve, think differently. How are you standing. out. >> outside the crowd? >> Do you want to do this with me? Think on. the fly. >> Yeah, sure. >> Like, okay, like let's do let's do an. experiment. So let's say if there's a. new brand who's starting out, what can. be this this genius random idea? >> Give me the brand. Give me a brand. Give. me a product. >> Um, let's say everybody's starting.

supplement brands. Let's pick up. supplement brand because that's like the. tough category to get or coffee brand. You pick up which one. >> Okay, let's do supplement brand cuz. everyone's doing supplements. >> Yeah. >> And what is it? What format is it? Is it. a pill? Is it a liposomaal? Like what's. the. >> let's say it's a it's a magnesium. supplement for better sleep. >> Magnesium supplement for better sleep. >> Yeah. >> So, one thing I actually saw and this is. not a new idea, but maybe we could come. up with some creative idea. Do you know. what the bedrot challenge is? >> Bedrot? >> Yeah.

>> No. >> So, it's how long you could just sleep. in bed for? So, it's like a Mr. Beast. style challenge that this company did. I. forgot what the company was, but it was. a challenge that they brought in like a. hundred creators and the person that. sleeps in bed the longest. wins like $100,000, [laughter]. which is the most Mr. Beast thing, by. the way. It's like sleep for as long as. possible and win $100,000. But it's on. Tik Tok live 24/7 the entire time and.

then on Twitch and all these other live. streaming channels and YouTube and stuff. too. So people would tune in to see what. if people are sleeping or not. It's. crazy. But it's a it's for this product. [laughter] that's all about how long can. you sleep good sleep. I was like damn. that is genius. Because all they did was. just set up a room with like a bunch of. beds and it's just people sleeping and. people are. >> and whoever gets up just gets.

eliminated. >> Yeah. If they need to go to the bathroom. and get up, they're done. >> And even if they get up like can are. they allowed to be just be awake and be. on the bed. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That is allowed. >> That's allowed. >> Okay. >> But there but then you can't be on your. phone. You can't like So you start going. crazy, right? [laughter]. >> So now there's a leaderboard of people, right? And it's like this person got. eliminated and then maybe there's like. alarms and stuff going off. I forgot. what it was. Like every time someone got. eliminated, there was like a big thing. So people are now tuning in to this. thing about your product to see who's.

getting eliminated [laughter]. challenge. >> That's a good idea. That that can be. like a. >> It's hilarious. >> Yeah, it it is fun. >> It's like the new uh the grocery shop. video, you know, and I went to visit the. grocery store um when I was with Jimmy. in North Carolina. Dude, he set up this entire grocery. store and it was like last like it was. something like you eat the entire. grocery store and then you get to leave. Yeah. And you win this money. I mean. like those people weren't getting paid.

to be there every single day. They got. paid after they won the challenge and. they left. And of course it's Jimmy so. he made it interesting the whole way. through and they gave them incentives. and things like that for the video. But. anyone can do that. M nice. >> It could even be yourself, you know. It's like. >> Do you think that if somebody does. something like this, they would. automatically be considered as not. serious brand? >> Because that's someone who wants to. associate themselves with sleep and.

wants to be serious, wants to be seen as. this guy or this brand which is like. optimize your sleep, get better sleep, declutter your mind, whatever, whatever, whatever. And then I do this funny Mr. B. style video. Will it dilute my brand. preposition and not be a and will I not. be able to target the right kind of. audience who I want to reach? >> It I mean obviously it depends on your. audience but is feastable not a real. brand because Mr. beast is advertising. it. You know, like obviously he has.

other videos that are talking about the. child labor and everything. Everything is a funnel, right? People. have heard about the funnel in business. The first layer has to be the awareness, the hook. How are you getting people in? And of course, with something like this, yeah, it might be gimmicky, but you're. getting an awareness. There could be. something a little bit more serious. Like other ways people do it is like. Andrew Hooverman, who you've had on your. podcast. people respect him. He's a doctor that. of opthalmology, you know, whatever it.

is at Stanford and has all these. different people. >> Lament, the drink uh the stick pack. brand. >> got their start because they tapped into. Andrew Hooverman's audience and then it. built like a ser so that was the. awareness. They got a doctor that they. last. >> but it's expensive now, right? >> Dude, do you know what's not expensive. that we do? dentists. So, we work with a. company called PDS. They're the largest. dental clinic in the United States and.

we're like, you know what's really good. for your teeth? Gum with xylitol, no. sugar. >> But are they allowed to promote? >> Yeah. We're in every single one of you. know how you get a little gift bag after. you with a toothbrush and all that like. boring stuff. They're like, we want to. make this more fun. We did a partnership with PDS and now. every single person that leaves their. dental clinic if they drink coffee gets. neurogum instead. It's like oh coffee. stains your teeth. You want energy you should chew this.

>> So is there. all that cost was the cost of our. product. [laughter]. >> You give them to for free and then they. just distribute it. >> and that's awareness also. >> Yeah. >> Right. So there you could obviously pay. someone like a Hoover man and obviously. you could pay with equity and stuff too. if you're a startup but um you could pay. an influencer that is very expensive or. you could tap into networks that are. traditional like dentists aren't getting.

paid influencer [laughter]. but you could tap into networks like. that also. There's always an. opportunity. So let's go back to your. magnesium sleep thing. You know what? If. like. I mean there's a bunch of mattress. companies out there. What if you like. partner with a mattress company and be. like, "Hey, we're giving you this. product for free." And we actually did. this with a pillow company with our. sleep product where it was every single. person that buys a pillow gets a free. neurosleep.

And so they're going to go to sleep. anyways. They see this product that. helps them with sleep. It's obvious. >> There's so many ways you can skin it. And you got to be creative and if you're. not dude delivery service is huge in. India right imagine I don't know if they. talk to each other but that is a job. where you have to constantly be on the. go and you know the wages on that are. not like these guys are getting paid. $150,000 a month. >> but those are people that are. interacting with other people every.

single day. >> Yeah. I was, you know, I had this idea. like that I was hinting at earlier, but. what if there is a referral program. built into this driver community where. you give them somehow like there's. probably hubs where like all them are. hanging out waiting for their next order. to come in. Like I see it here like you. know you see these lines of cars waiting. to pick up food. What if you go and. sample Neurogum to every single one of. those people and you're like, "Hey, go sample like 25 of these. I'll give.

you 100 bucks for the next 25 orders. Next 25 coffee orders, give them. Neurogum instead. Now that community. [laughter] gets an alternative, >> it's not allowed that the brands that. they work with, they don't allow them to. do it. >> They don't. >> Yeah, they don't. [laughter]. >> That's That's why it was an idea. That's. a good idea. I didn't look into it. I. didn't look into it. >> That's a good idea. >> cuz I was just like, damn. Like you. could tap into them. They're interacting. with you know exactly what they're. ordering. If they're ordering a coffee.

or if it's night time and they're can't. sleep, it's like dude. >> Oh, sleep. >> Oh my god. [laughter] Perfect. What. about if you give them your product? It's like, hey, by the way, this is free. with your delivery. >> Yeah. >> Damn. [laughter]. >> That you can't do. You can do that with. delivery platforms as an advertising. tool, but that's expensive. >> Yeah, but you know, you can break the. rules a little bit. >> I mean, [laughter]. >> yeah, >> you're allowed. Everyone's allowed to. break the rules. >> Everyone's allowed until you get caught. Until you get caught. And there's no. home. >> Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. But usually the. first time you get caught is just a slap. on the wrist. Yeah.

>> So some different ideas. I was like, "Oh. man, like how do you just tap into these. spaces?". >> Yeah. Have you heard I don't know who. who was this entrepreneur in US. I saw. this clip like years ago. I think this. is 2020 or something. The Shark Tank. person and that guy said like. if in the beginning you're breaking some. rules which is not which is not harming. people but harming other big giant. businesses, it's okay. >> Yeah. [laughter] I was like I was like. >> I think everyone agrees with that.

>> publicly but it's okay. >> everyone agrees with that [laughter]. >> true. >> like legally it's the wrong thing to do. but. >> you have to break rules you have to. break rules like that's not not again. don't hurt people. >> as long as you're not harming people but. harming a large joint to take out like. just a percentage of their business I. think that should be. >> even what David did that was like He. broke the rule. >> What did he do? >> Well, the rule he broke by driving a. truck around this convention is he.

didn't pay for the convention, [laughter]. >> but he still advertised at it. It's so. funny. >> True. True. Okay. You know, two things. you said on the on the whole creator. influencer kind of thing. Do you get. these influencers who are already. established and big or do you find these. new creators to do it? What do you do? So what's really interesting is micro. influencers I think are more and more. popular now. Yeah. Because so if you. asked me this question five years ago it. would have been a different answer. Five.

years ago you get a really big. influencer like a Kim Kardashian and. everyone wants to be like Kim Kardashian. so they like tap they Yeah. The queen. bee factor. Exactly. >> Now the trust of big influencers have. diminished significantly because of. brand deals but and [clears throat] also. the rise of Tik Tok and creators. If you get a creator that has not even a. creator, if you get someone that has. like, let's say, a thousand followers, that person with a thousand followers, all thousand followers.

probably knows this person really, really well and vice versa. So, if. they're talking about a product in a. genuine way, the chances of you getting. a higher conversion rate on a,000. followers versus a very low conversion. rate, even if they have 10,000. followers, for the price is much more. effective. >> Yeah. >> You pay someone that has, let's say, 100,000 followers and has a 0.1%. conversion rate, but you pay them. $100,000, right? You just paid that person with a.

thousand followers probably like a 250. bucks and now they get you have half. their follow 500 followers like. [laughter]. following your product. at economy of scale that's so much more. impactful and they like one of the. quotes we use in our company is make. your backyard look pretty before you. take on make the world look pretty. [snorts] How do you make that backyard. for that audience look pretty in these. different areas before making the world. trying to take over the world in one big. fellow swoop?

>> Interesting. So you would say like only. do the small ones. >> I think it's becoming much more. costefficient and more effective. >> And when you when you say small ones, do. you say under 5,000, under,000, under. 10,000 or just complete new people who. maybe potentially can become the whole. creator from scratch for your brand? because I've seen three brands do that. >> It could be I think it could be. anything. I mean, yeah, I I I it's worth. sometimes investing into people, you. know, and you know, I think Element got.

pretty lucky with Andrew Hooverman, frankly, because precoid Andrew was. making these podcasts, but he wasn't. like big like he he became big in the. last 5 years, right? And so for Element. to be tapped into a early creator that. fit their vision and their values which. is as a company that's the most. important thing. What is your vision and. your values that you lay out? Then you. know even if they're small who to reach. out to and be like this person shares my.

visions and values the people that. listen to him probably do too. So. there's a direct connection down the. line and then you can invest it into a. creator whatever whoever it is a podcast. creator what that will grow with you and. then obviously find success together. On. the flip side if there are smaller. creators that you are tapping into let's. go with your sleep example and let's. break it down a little bit more. Um.

what's a what's an age group that has. bad sleep? >> 30 and above. >> 30 and above. Why do they have bad. sleep? >> Insane amount of stress. Uh not being. able to cope up with work. >> What kind of work? >> Relationships. Just average uh every day. they go to office and then come back and. they're tired and then. >> so let's. >> annoyed. >> Let's say it's a. >> I'm making this up, right? I don't know. anything about. >> it's a a SAS company. >> H. >> because the SAS apocalypse is happening.

>> You're afraid about your job. So you. can't sleep. >> Like it jobs. uh as IT jobs and it's. very stressful because your job might be. on the line. going back to the psychological triggers. that's an insecurity about your job is. that an insecurity about productivity at. your job because you feel like you can't. do or is it I want to be productive. outside of work so that I could start my. own thing because I think I have a. better opportunity as a backup plan and. to be able to do that I need to have. good sleep whatever it is [gasps].

>> what is that through line that you're. creating in the audience you're tapping. into and those values that you're. sharing initially. And again, I you. know, I'm going to repeat the book's. name, crossing the chasm, but who is. that first tiny audience that is so tied. on to your pain points before you go on. cross the chasm into the next audience, next audience, next audience. If you're looking at a product and if. you're looking at creators or if you're. looking at um an audience that you can.

link into, exact same thing. What are. the pain points that you're sharing with. this person that your values and. everything align with? And how do you. tap into that? And then you if that guy. works in SAS, I bet you 20% of the. people that follow him on his Instagram. probably also work in SAS. They probably. work [laughter] with him. >> No, but if he loves the product and he's. a influencer at his office, >> you just got 20% of his company hooked. on your product also. >> True.

>> Now do that again at the next place. Next place. and then company after. company after company. >> Yeah. Or community after community, whatever it is. >> Interesting. You know, you said. something I sort of disagree with. You. said the large influencer doesn't work. as much as the micro ones. >> I slightly disagree based on all the. data and all the entrepreneurs that I. talked to, what I've seen. I think the. super large one works and the super. small ones. The big and the mid ones are. not working. >> I agree. You're right. The super big.

ones have enough of a presence that it's. an impact. >> Yes. >> Because they're so big. Yes. Right. >> But Kim So I'll use Kim Kardashian as an. example. >> Yeah. And also like I was the super. Yeah. Go ahead. Actually complete it and. then I'll tell you the thought. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Kim Kardashian. Yeah. Go. ahead. >> There's a certain type of influencer and. how they talk about your product though. also, right? Kim Kardashian posted about. a product on her stories and we're just. like love this you know like what. >> we did some sales but it wasn't crazy.

>> but if Kim Kardashian is wearing skims. to a few. >> yeah it just so I was coming to exactly. that so the super large ones they. realize and I'm talking super large ones. mean in any and every category if you're. talking to the top five people so let's. say if it's podcast and top five. podcasters in the world or if It's. models and top five models or athletes. and top five athletes. So just like top. five people of like it's a comedian only. the top five comedians.

>> When you talk to these people if they. post once probably it won't work. But if. you get them for an advocacy this works. much better than anything else. They one. large person like let's say Kim. Kardashian with skills. >> and if she's advocating that for next 6. months it's way more powerful than your. 500 creators. >> 100% agree with that. [laughter] I mean. in no world is is a small creator going. to be a Kim Kardashian. >> Exactly. So like small 100 creators are. not going to be competing with the So. the super large ones work but they work.

only when you work in an advocacy level. Yes. >> Where they are like you. >> because it's difficult for me to believe. that Kim Kardashian today just like just. posted about neuro so she consumes it. But if I see this on an everyday basis. randomly and even she was not promoting. and I see her and then she's giving it. to Kendall and then Kylie and then. probably Lewis Hamilton is also and I. was like holy like [laughter] this. >> this is a family thing. >> They really like it. >> They really like it and then like. there'll be like millions like me who.

would go and just go eat it. >> So that's a really good point though. because if you are a starting. entrepreneur you can't get a Kim. Kardashian. >> Yeah. >> But you could probably get someone. adjacent to a Kim Kardashian which is. what we did. We got David Grutman, um, who's one of the biggest, he is the. biggest promoter and in Nightlife in. Miami, right? A massive guy and really. good friends with Kim and shared. Neurogum with Kim. >> So now David's talking about it. Kim's. talking about it. >> If you're following David, you probably. follow Kim,

>> right? If you're following Kim, you. probably follow Kylie and you probably. follow Lewis Hamilton. And so we work. with F1. So we work with Yuki Tonot from. F1. there's an adjacency between now F1, Kim. Kardashian, David Grutman, how are you. creating the web of people because now. you're seeing it over and over again to. your point and being like, "Oh, something's up, right?" But if you're a. small startup just starting out, I guess where do you start? Like I do.

agree that it's a complete waste of time. to go in this like middle section of. kind of big influencers maybe like. whatever like 2 million followers right. >> but he could either make a really big. splash with like a Mr. Beast person if. there's an agency. >> like Andrew Huberman type. >> Andrew Hubman but the only caveat I. would say to that is to your point. who else is connected to that Andrew. Hooverman. So it does feel like, oh, I'm.

hearing this over and over again within. my network. >> Yeah. Yeah. There has to be some level. of trickle down effect. >> so that you it's more believable. >> What's crazy is like I mean I see these. people there, you know, they hail Mary. into one big activation. They'll pay. like $5 million. Like the last $5. million they have to be like, Kim. Kardashian, make one post about us. You. know, it's like of course that's not. going to work. >> Yeah. [laughter].

>> You know, like what? So you business. takes a little bit more thought in that. regard where Yeah. how what are all the. connecting factors from your product, your values, the people you work with, the people they work with for it to all. come together? M. >> you know I was speaking to one of the. tech giant uh CEO and I was asking that. person like why do you in today's world. still get like these large Hollywood or. Bollywood stars to promote your stuff.

because it just makes no sense because I. would think that there are no just there. are no conversions like like I don't. think last time you you saw like a Tom. Cruz selling something and then you. bought it like right like you don't I. was like why do you still need them then. Because every airport you go to, every. driveway you get, there is some big star. with like some big perfume or like some. big. >> Yeah. I was who is buying Johnny Depp's. per cologne. >> Exactly. [laughter].

So I asked that person like why do you. still do it? Because they're very big on. influencer. They're very big on micro. communities and they're big on these. large in every country they have this. large star, right? and he said something very interesting. to me and since then I don't know if it. really works or not but I think it makes. sense. He's like. if you get a big star and let's say you. spend like $5 million to get them and if. you only have $5 million and you get. them, it's never going to work out. >> Mhm.

>> So you need to get them for $5 million. and then you need another $5 million to. make a noise that you got them and then. you get the results. I don't see. >> So, this is what Celsius did. This is. probably secret information, but. whatever. You like secrets. >> I [laughter] love it. This podcast um. Celsius would spend 4x the amount that. the influencer cost to activate that. influencer. >> So, exactly to that point, you get a. Lewis Hamilton for let's say like. whatever $2 million, they would spend $8.

million on F1 sponsorship, Lewis. Hamilton marketing, like advert, whatever it is. So yeah, makes you h you. >> you just partnering with Lewis Hamilton. >> Yeah. People aren't going to be like, oh, like unless you're a super fan, >> which is probably still very small. Like. >> you need to make sure everyone knows. about the fact. [laughter]. >> Okay. There was another thing you said.

You build this community of all these. people all all the creators they come on. the discord and then they stay in your. community and all of that. How do you. build a community? How do you keep them. incentivized enough? Because money for. sure is not the only thing. You have to. create a feeling that this is their. brand and they love you. >> So how do you create that? What are the. things that you do in a community? What. are the essent essential things that you. create with your people? That is the. power of brand and a lot of people.

forego brand just for transactional. things. So like you know I'm trying to. think of like companies that um existed. in like the last 10 years that were big. but they didn't build the brand. component to it. Like you could think. about uh you walk down a supplement. aisle at CVS, you see all those uh. supplements that sell B6 and B12 and it. has some value, but there's nothing like. a feelingwise associated behind it. >> Yeah. For us, here's an example of. something we did 2 weeks ago for our.

sour launch. We rented out an entire. back area of a go-kart space and we. invited 50 influencers to come go-kart. racing with us because it's something. that's on the go. You know, you have to. be focused while you're driving. And. then all those people, by the way, we. didn't pay them to come. You know, it's. just a fun little event, >> but they sure as hell told everyone else. about how cool this event was. [laughter]. And if you are and we target college. campuses and things like that as well.

because there's a perfect product for. college students. If you are tapping in and providing. value outside of the product in terms of. a social factor, a cool factor, um. obviously a benefit factor for school. and performance, then. you have to make sure that your brand is. conveying that from an approachability. level. like I feel like I'm a part of. this brand because.

whatever the way they present themselves. and you know one of the things I say uh. to the team a lot and to other people. and I'll say to my son once he's old. enough is there's this goes for I think. human beings in general. like what are what are the factors that. make you trust someone that makes you. want to follow them they have values. that are crystal clear like you know. exactly what their values. And then uh uh damn, how do I say this.

in a way? Um and then they have I'm just. I'm just going to say it the way it's in. my head. Okay. Like and as a as a man, okay, like if I think about like if I. want my boy to be a man, what are his. values? And does he have the balls to. stand behind his values? >> That's what being a man is. >> Yeah. Am I and that's what being a. leader is or that's what being whatever. the equivalent for a woman is you know. like a a female leader is like what are. your values and you stand behind those. values.

>> but how do you create the that feeling. >> in other people as well because you do. that as a brand you have value system. and you're standing behind it and you. want to create this feeling and you. stand by every word that you do. >> right. >> how do you create that feeling for the. creator who's promoting you So, similar. to this, those values, the way we. construct our experiences, whether it's. this K1 speed event that I'm going to. use because it's the most recent one, >> go-karting, if you look [clears throat]. at the pictures that we wrapped, the.

go-karts, we had the type of influencers. that came are all very similar fitness. style influencers, >> right? >> The way we talk about our product, the. way we made it fun but also competitive. you know, these even the creators in the. Miami house, like it wasn't just about. money. It was about our top creators. that are motivated as hell. They're all. very similar like fitness influencers. Like. once they start talking to each other. and once they start identifying.

subconsciously actually even when you go. from L1 to L7 we kind of have an. understanding of who's going to be an L7. creator because those are the people. that represent our brand the best like. of course because the values the events. those things that we talk the way we. talk about the product on a daily basis. and how it's being used and the other. bigger influencers ers that talk about. it like the whoever like Mitchell Hooper. is an example world's strongest man like.

or Andrew Schultz comedian who's very. sharp. Joe Rogan it all like subconsciously. almost stacks up to represent someone. that's. confident but yet has humility. and is allowed to have fun. >> and then that trickles down into how the. brand is which trickles down in how the. creators are. That's how all of our. events are. The type of people they meet. are exactly like that. Also, like.

everything you're constructing is. interconnected is one thing. >> Yeah. Like we're never going to do. something that's so bizarre like. whatever. Maybe a bizarre thing that. would be but it'll still be fun, competitive, has humility behind it, you. know? It's like it's still the same. values no matter what it is. >> Interesting. So I was going to ask you. the three elements of building a brand. but I'm going to ask you first value. system because you use that too much and.

I think that's going to be important for. brand. >> Tell me three value the three values. that you as a brand stand for and how. did you find that and why only those. three values. >> So there's there's two there's our. external facing and our inter internal. facing. >> So when we build out our brand book we. talked about tone of voice. >> Mhm. Um, and the type of, if I were to. think of like a type of person that. represents our brand very well,

>> I wouldn't say it's really an Andrew. Huberman, right, who's sciencebacked, obviously very, very intelligent, but. more on the dry side. Obviously, like he. he doesn't like joke around too much. >> Yeah. But on the flip side, you look at. someone like a Bill Nye the Science Guy. or like Adam Savage from Mythbusters, >> they have the and we actually have a. really sick collaboration happening next. year with uh this company called. Colossal um and might get some of those. people involved. But.

there is a trust factor because of the. science and everything that and the. intelligence that they promote, but they. obviously make it approachable and fun. Mhm. >> So for us, are we sciencebacked. yet in. uh building a sense of approachability. in our product? >> Science yet fun. >> Science yet fun. And then again the. humility component is really big which. goes. >> what do you mean by humility?

>> Are you not overpromising? Like we don't overpromise that this is. going to fix your whatever Alzheimer's. or whatever. You know, there's like a. lot of like that doctor. >> Yeah. Like we're not we're we're more. Bill Nye than the doctor. >> in a sense. You know, we're um we're not. promising these crazy things. And in the. products that we create down the line. with innovation, we are never going to be creating. something that promises to be a.

pharmaceutical level product. That's why. we're not getting into GLP1s and this. and that like right. But we will always. be a product. And I think actually a lot. of brands go down that path and end up. ruining their brand because they. deteriorate what built them in the first. place. Are we sciencebacked? Are we. approachable? And do we have the. humility to understand that we live in. that space? >> Interesting. >> And then we tie that back to internal. values of leadership.

Do we have calm leadership? Because if. we're a brand that has fun, we should. always be able to solve any problem with. a smile on our face. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Um, sorry. Oh. Oh, humility. Yeah. Calm. leadership. Humility. Do all of us, no. matter what position we're in, understand that we call it servant. leadership, but like we serve others. Everyone at every level serves other, >> right? >> That comes from a Japanese root. So, >> it is. And the last one, funny enough,

is we have multiple values, but like. these are the three important uh Kaizen. >> Have you heard that one? >> Constant improvement. Yeah. >> Constant progress over perfection. It's. like which to me is this product as. well. >> Okay. I I ruined it for you for audience. for somebody who's who doesn't know. about Kaizen, just go ahead and tell. >> So Kaizen, funny enough, Trader Joe's, which is a big retailer here too, uh. Kaizen is one of their mantras as well. It is progress over perfection. like to. improve every single day versus chasing.

perfection is a better mantra for life. because there is no such thing as. perfection and you know even the great. leaders like Napoleon said it uh Mark. Zuckerberg also says it you know like. moving fast is better than taking all. your time to create something that's. perfect. >> because things change in the process. like there's no such thing as perfect. but you can always improve yourself. In. fact, if you're an entrepreneur, if.

you're someone that is trying to become. a better version of yourself every. single day, Kaizen should just be in. your core. Nice. So, values internal and external. We build that. Okay. Value system for us. is also important. When we started. podcast, I think that's one of the most. important thing for any podcaster as. well that they should have. >> Yeah. They should have a very strong. value system because at one point you're. going to expand your podcast into. multiple areas like how no matter what. you start as you're eventually you'll.

become much more bigger and different. and wider. So you need to have a very. strict value system and for us that is. so from day one we started with how the. most world's most extraordinary minds. think. >> and we stay with that no matter what we. do no matter who we call no matter how. big small controversial uh educator. non-education expert whatever we stick. to this one value system and that's why. I think the audience has helped us go. from one territory to another from one.

country to another and now it's helping. So value system is so so goddamn. important. And then we have a very. important thing called the notto-do. list. >> H I love that. >> That is like the most important for us. Yeah. Like we we say this internally. that. >> here are like five things we will never. do. >> and then we will do everything else. >> Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Like so so the. five things that we never do is so you.

know the top five categories in content. that works all around the world. >> We don't do any of that. >> Oh really? >> The the categories which get. >> what are those? Yeah. What are those. categories? >> So I'll tell you the categories which. get highest views in the world. The top. five are number one is horror. >> Oh yeah. >> Right. Like it gets like true crime. horror. >> Yeah. Like I I don't know what like 1 2. 3 4 5 6 like I I'm just messing up the. priority order depending on the country. but these these five stay for majority.

countries they stay as it is right some. in some countries it can be one some be. four but these five will be there so. first is horror. >> mhm. >> second is religion and devotion. >> which is very very very strong. >> then there's entertainment and gossip. >> which is big. >> these are so obvious Yeah. Then sex and erotic conversations, right? Which is the soft pawn, the sex. and erotic conversation. And then the. fifth is astrology. >> Of course, man. And which is similar to.

religion, right? >> These five you look at anyone if you in. any country the top five creators Mhm. >> they will fall into at least like at. least three or four of them will fall. into one of these category. >> That's crazy. I'd believe it though. It's so when you. say it, it's so obvious. >> Yes. >> And I see why. I know why. You know, [laughter]. >> it's crazy. >> Yeah. [gasps] So, and so we made a list. that we will never do this. These are.

the five things we don't touch at all. Like we would even if we touch sometimes. we touch sex as a subject, but we do it. from a point of education. >> Yeah. >> We never do like some random erotic. conversation. We will never do it. >> I can't even imagine that dude. Like. >> don't start now. [laughter]. Okay, coming back you said you use a. word called brand book. >> Yes. >> Right. First tell me what are the three. elements of brand and then help me build. a brand book for the entrepreneurs. What. are these five things which are which.

should be there in a brand book? But. before we go there tell me what is a. brand? >> Uh you said community experience should. I consider that as an element of brand? Um, yeah. Well, so I I'll talk about a brand. from an a different perspective. >> From a. I'll say it in two ways. I'll I'll talk. about it from what like a typical brand. is. It is a visual language of a. product, right? Like there's a visual. language of a product that you are. communicating that has underlying tone,

values, and uh communication mechanisms. So let's say like for us. >> um. >> tone values and. >> uh communication like me mechanisms. like that's what a brand is we are. communicating energy and focus is the. most important thing we are a gum packet. so but with supplements so we talk about. >> um how what ingredients are in here we. are laid out like this all the time so. even if you look at our different.

packaging levels you can see that there. is a design format that. So that's the visual language. >> There is a tone of voice. So if you look. at all of our advertising, the way we. talk on the back of the pack, even here, we there is a way that we speak. in the packaging. Obviously, this. doesn't really have it. Always. sciencebacked. We've got good energy. That is the tone of voice. And then from. there, how do you take that tone of.

voice and communicate it out into all. the marketing material? So now you have. a way of expanding it. >> So communication, tone of voice and. >> uh visual language. >> So how do you present yourself? How how. do you vis visually. >> and then you just stick by it forever. >> Yeah. So that's that's the foundation. There's that's the architecture right of. what and then from there. >> that's where marketing and all those. things get really exciting innovation. because you have to stick within those. confines of an architecture and values.

and ideas and tone of voice and build. from that. >> okay [snorts]. >> it's your bible like we we call it a. brand bible more than a brand book but I. don't want to bring religion into this. [laughter]. um if. from there though the other way to look. at a brand. >> is. audience. So. how does the audience dictate how your. brand is being perceived is another.

thing. So if you start off with. especially like a creator community and. you're realizing that the language. that's being used is around confidence. let's say which I hear a lot with our. product. then how are you building an effective. feedback loop to adjust your values and. brands but not too much because like. that's when you get out of hand to. reformat recreate and then that's why. many brands like every 10 years or so,

they relaunch with a new brand book. You. know, um what are the experiences that. you want people to have? Like we were. talking about that experience still fits. within this framework, the tone of. voice, but. you know, a brand book's not going to. tell you how a person feels or how they. should feel. Like you have to create. that. >> Yeah. >> And then put it into your brand book. But like that feel like for us, we want. people to everyone at one of our. experiences should feel approachable. So.

everyone's friends with each other cuz. that amplifies the fun. >> cuz there's no like the aspirational. egoistic Top Gun level. None of that. >> Everyone's Everyone hangs out. Everyone. chill place. >> It's a chill place. VIP section and a table for like. important people. >> Never. Never. And I honestly will like. we do with our creators obviously, but. once they get there, the experience is. they're all the same. Um, yeah, it's not.

a Tony Robbins conference that you're. going to. It's a [laughter] neuro. conference. So, is [snorts] there approachability? Is there fun? Like, you know, is there. energy and excitement? It should like it. should constantly be high energy. Um. like all these things. is a feeling that when I listen to your. podcast what is that feeling I want to. get when I go to an event of your sort. like those are things I think should. also be embedded into a brand book that. typically. is is not. >> okay it becomes ton of voice let's do.

one by one I think we jumped in right. here so let's pick up first as feeling. okay. >> sure. >> so feeling in your brand book what is. the feeling that you want your audience. or your customers to feel when they. touch or see or consume your product. Trust. So let's say from a physical st. So let's start off with like the the. original three, right? >> Tone of voice, communication, visual. language. >> Um visual language. I pick up a piece of. gum or a pickup pack.

Even down at the operational level and. the way we design our packaging, there's. a nice gloss on this. This is embossed. so it feels premium. And it's not. premium just because it looks nice. It's. premium because we use premium. ingredients that all work together to. create a trust uh trustable reliable. product. >> So you don't we don't say any of those. things on the packaging. It's like yeah.

the most reliable energy like you're not. writing that. But through the visual. language you are able to create that. What is the most important thing that I. should put in my packaging so that it it. screams trust without even saying it? Because there has to be some magic. Is. it negative space? >> Is it something else? >> Transparency. >> Well, it depends cuz I I think it. depends on the the brand obviously as. well. >> What's for you so that we know. >> for us we talk about transparency. So.

the ingredients are right on the front. >> Okay. >> Energy and focus. you know exactly what. you're going to get when you have the. product. >> of the brand. >> This is mechanical, but when I look at. our product and I touch it and I'm like, "Wow." Like, and I look at another. crappy piece of gum that doesn't have. all these things, you know, this costs. us like a penny to even. >> like see how it's like a little. >> raised. Yeah. Yeah. Like you can't tell. if you're just looking at it, but then.

you pick it up and you're just like, whoa, they're like even that little. detail, [laughter] right? >> Yeah. >> Like you know that there's like a these. guys put in attention to detail even. because of something like that. You see. like this is shiny a little bit also. >> Like those little things. add to the trust, the reliability, >> the way the visual language of the. product comes out. Nice. So, so if you. want to create a visual language which.

has where you want people to trust you, the three things you need to be very. mindful about. How are you being. transparent? How are you. showing them that you have uh your. entire brand runs around attention to. detail and then what is a simple promise. in two or three words. >> Yes, >> these are like three very important. things. If this is sitting on a retail. shelf and you're just like, >> can I trust it? >> Yeah. Can I trust it? And like if I look. at it, I know exactly what it does. >> Mhm.

>> Boom. I know energy and focus. Boom. It's so obvious. >> Yeah. True. >> I know exactly what it does. >> I know exactly what I'm going to get. I. know exactly what I get. And I look at. it, it's like, oh, it's energy and focus. because of the caffeine, although. that's great. That's a great benefit. Spearmint. That's a great flavor, you. know. Oh, and now I picked it up. Wow. Like this is really nice packaging. >> Interesting. Okay. Right. all those. things. So, and subtle things but. obviously. >> Okay. So, that's that's visual language. is first in the brand book in brand. bible as you say.

>> Mhm. >> Then second is feeling. >> The feeling you want is approachable. energy and what else? >> Approachable. Um well when I say energy. the we're talking about community. experiences. But if we go back to the. tone of voice and the. >> Okay, let's go tone of voice first. The way we talk about our product is. never overly scientific. And I could. talk overly I was a neuroscience major. so I could talk, you [laughter] know, like the brain all day. But if we're. going back and I'm.

not trying to confuse someone to talk. about, oh, okay, like uh you blockad a. scene and this is how when I start. talking like that to someone, dude, we're a gum. [laughter]. >> Like you know, at the end of the day, we're a gum and a mint. It's has to have that approachability. but a reliability on the trust and we. could talk about uh the science. components the different pathways that. this is affecting how caffeine blocks. adenosine receptors so that's how you.

don't feel tired you know elenine allows. you to curb the the and balance out the. caffeine you know cuz the compounds. amino acid compounds found in matcha and. green tea you can dive in and look at. that if you want to on on our website. and that's why we have the clinical. trials but we don't lead with the. clinical trials. We lead with the. approachability, the fun, the. transparency that our product has and. then if they want to search more into. it, >> they realize like, oh wow, there's all.

these things. >> that allow me to trust it. >> Interesting. Nice. Okay, so that's tone. of voice. >> Tone of voice. And again with tone of. voice, the way we do it is like if. there's a celebrity that uh you can if. your product is a celebrity, what kind. of celebrity would it be? And we talk. about childish Gambino, you know, he's. >> one of the most talented people, plays. music, comedy, acts, everything, but. it's still like a funny guy compared to. like uh Jared Leto or something, you. know, who's so serious, [laughter].

>> although he's very talented. >> That's a good question to ask. I I love. that question. If your product was a. celebrity, which celebrity would it be? >> Yeah. >> Who would it be for you? You're already. a celebrity. [laughter]. >> No, no, no, no, not not yet. >> Wow, that's a tough question, dude. >> Yeah, >> that is that's a good question though. I. like it. I'm going to think the instant. name that comes in my head is Oprah. >> Oh, interesting. >> Yeah, like. >> do you give free giveaways to everyone?

Yeah, I really want [laughter] for my. podcast. If let's say if my podcast has. a brand and if we wanted to be a. celebrity, which celebrity would it be? I think Oprah would top that. >> Oprah's a good one. >> But but I want to go deeper and think. more like this is just top of my head. because she's an inspiration. So I look. up to her. >> and it's easy to start associating. It's. like, okay, what would Oprah do? >> Yeah. Yeah. And like what wouldn't she. do? You know, there's a bunch of things. that hopefully she doesn't do, but uh.

it's easy to start building a tone of. voice for your brand. Be like, I'm gonna. It needs to be like this person, you. know, and obviously I represent the. brand in a way. >> Um I hopefully I don't act like a overly. scientific you know. [laughter]. >> So, there's that component. And then. finally um so visual language, tone of. voice um and then uh. what was the last thing I say? [laughter]. Um. >> visual language, tone of voice and. communication but communication.

>> Oh communication. Yeah. Um is part of. it's part of tone of voice. Yeah. And. the visual language. >> Okay. So in the brand book there has to. be visual language. There has to be tone. of voice. There has to be a feeling. defined. What feeling? >> What else needs to be there in the brand. book? Um so in a typical brand book even if. you if you start with those three it. starts getting broken down even more. concretely. >> So with any new product launch it is are. these the fonts you are using you should.

always be using the same fonts. >> Okay. >> you know is there. for us we even talk about the cadence of. how we speak. So, are we talking in. short sentences? This is this, this is. this, or are we talking in short. sentence, long? Is there a rhythm to the. words, right? In how you're speaking. >> Nice. >> Because I mean, you have a way you. speak. I have a way I speak. And funny. enough, the way you speak defines a. person. True. >> Right. And that's communication. So, is. there a way that you're speaking even in.

Oh, the rhythm of how you communicate. That's new. So rhythm of sentences and. how you speak and what kind of language. you. >> pretty fascinating you and what is yours. like is it like short sentences? >> No, I mean it's a it's approachability. So it's a combination of very strong. statements that we would make but then. like an approachable like longer sent. like there's we never make it like the.

reason we don't use short sentences like. is that becomes a statement every single. time and some companies do that you know. because it works but and it's not overly. flourishy. We're not using big bombastic. words and because then there's no trust. you're covering it up with. >> But is there a balance between simple. words that are effective and. approachable, but statements when you. need to make the statement? So, it's an. actual hit.

>> That's a balance in language. >> It's like you do headline and then you. do the explainer, >> headline, small explainer, explainer. That's your rhythm. >> So, talk to me about community events. You were talking about it. What do you. prefer? the large community event once a. year or like bunch of small ones or like. mid-level two or three a year. That's. it. >> Yeah, we do like I think we do one every. other month. So like six six a year. So. it's kind of a lot a lot. >> but sometimes it's big, sometimes it's. small. I mean we do maybe we even do.

more. Like we'll sponsor like a Pilates. event. So the entire Pilates studio is. Neurogum, you know. Um that's a big one. Every other brand is doing this pilate. thing. I know it's I don't know. Like. you do it so you should know. Well, I. don't do Pilates like we do it. >> No, but like you sponsor Pilate brand, right? The Pilate is is really picked. up. >> It's picked up like crazy. >> It It has really picked up. >> Pilates and pickle ball. >> Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Pilates is big. Pickle ball is. like really big right now. >> And even paddle in a lot of padd.

[laughter]. >> Yes. Exactly. [laughter]. But with uh Pilates, I think it's not. it's hard if you've ever done Pilates. before. >> Yeah, I've done that. I've tried to do. it. >> Oh, man. [laughter]. >> Like you're shaking. >> Yeah. I thought it was going to be so. easy because there just bunch of people. just on the reformer. I was like, "Yeah, I'm going to do it.". >> You're just like,

>> I remember like 18 minutes. in 18 minutes. I was like this. I was. like, "Please." I guess it requires. focus. I mean, with our mark, I have to. ask our marketing team, but Pilates is. great though because And same with. pickle ball and podel. Um, tennis is. pretty hard. Pickle ball's not as hard. Pickle ball is fun. Pickle ball's easy. It's easy to play as long as you're not. playing against pros, but it's easy to. play. >> Yeah, exactly. >> And I think it's the same with like.

Pilates. Pilates is in CrossFit, but. it's still hard. >> Yeah. >> Like there's like an accessibility to. it. Like in a group class, if you go for. the beginner ones, you can get through. it. >> Yeah. >> So that's what it is. But if you do like. one-on-one and you really want to focus. on yourself, it's it can get brutal. Yeah. >> But but coming back to Pilates, like why. every brand is partnering with Pilate. clubs, Pilate uh sessions, organizing. these Pilate communities. I see this. like everywhere. >> I think Aloe started this and then now. everybody does. >> I know. Genius Aloe. I think at its.

core, it is a group of people that are. passionate about one thing. People, if. you go into a Pilates class, you've seen. this. They love Pilates and they'll talk. about Pilates and they all hang out with. each other with their Pilates and their. socks, their special socks that they. have. [laughter]. >> And there's this Pilates personality. >> Yeah, there's a Pilates personality. And. if you're thinking about like um a cult. of a brand and like being able to tap. into uh different cults, like I'm using.

the word cult in like a very uh. superficial way, but. >> um you tap into a community of people. that are talking to each other. If one Pilates person is like, "I got. through my class thanks to Neurogum.". That other housewife that you know is. also trying to get through a class, we'll probably be like, "Oh, I should. probably chew gum, too.". >> You know, you could start saying that. versus, you know, I think about like. like F1 has a cool factor to it, but I.

don't know if that was like the right. place for us to activate. >> Why? because it's such an independent. sport and if I think about pickle ball. or pilates or things where you're just. like oh this I want to get better at it. and what's what allows me to get better. at it that when you have people sh. people like what's like a brand that. activates at F1 you know I'm trying to. think of another brand like Red Bull I. guess but Red Bull is all about. individual performance.

and extreme performance. >> and for That's that's not that's not. really us, you know. It's not really. extreme performance. It's finding the. best version of yourself. That that's. us, you know, at any given moment. We're. in your pocket so you could be the best. version of yourself in that moment, you. know. It's not I'm going to go jump off. a cliff in a squirrel suit. Interesting. So, you wouldn't go partner with an. extreme athlete, but you will partner. with someone like an everyday Joe who is. who's in a good shape and wants to get.

in a better shape. that person who's. trying every day, feel good factor, loving it. >> Yeah. >> And has a balanced life. Is that what. your ideal type is? >> Yeah. Like I'm, you know, if I were to. break it down, like we wouldn't sponsor. like we actually got our start in. CrossFit, funny enough, >> but I wouldn't go back and sponsor. CrossFit cuz those it's a little too. extreme. It's people it's so not. accessible. Like will you sponsor Hyrox? But Hy Rocks is something I would. sponsor because it's a little bit more.

accessible and easier to do than. CrossFit without that. >> almost like extremity in what people. push themselves to. like we would. sponsor, you know, I guess like to think about. this, this there's actually a pretty big. unlock for me even having this. conversation right now uh that I'll. bring up at the offsite, but. what is an environment where your. product did enough for a person that. they're willing to share with the. community that they're a part of? And if.

it's an F1 driver, even if an F1 driver. shares it with their community, there's only like 12 F1 drivers, [laughter]. like what is that community? It's like. it's so aspirational. >> that. >> it doesn't make sense, you know? You. know, there's a company called Ladder. that do you remember Ladder? >> No. >> It was a supplement company that had. LeBron James, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Serena Williams, like the top athletes. in the world. Mecca.

>> Yeah. >> It failed like three months after. launch. >> No way. >> Yeah. Because the No one's going to be a. LeBron James. [laughter]. >> No one's like it's there was a pop, but. then they anchored so heavily into these. elite athletes. These elite athletes are. that is such a small tam of audience. members that it's like I'm going to be. the LeBron, you know, I'm going to be. the next this. And then they forgot. about the community. they forgot about. like the everyday person and how it. impacts their life in a good way.

>> This is such a good insight that your. brand should be for communities where. there's a sharable value or a sharable. essence and there's hope that we can. become part of this community. >> No, >> if there is no hope, no way to become. part of this community and there's no. sharable essence, then probably your. brand. Yeah. Like. >> you have like 10 people using it. >> Yes. [laughter]. That's a good insight. I'm going to I'm. I'm stealing. >> Take it. Take it. That's yours. >> I'm stealing it. I'm stealing it because.

>> I forgot what I even said. So [laughter]. now it's yours. >> Okay. But this is fun. All right. Let's. get back to the community thing. >> So you said community events. Why would. you do smaller community events and not. just like one large event? >> I think it goes back to the micro. influencer. >> Would you do like one large event as. well? We would and we do from time to time. like larger events but I think there's. diminishing returns depending on the. size of event that you do. Okay. >> So you could get a lot of people like we.

do these like big college events you. know with uh our partners at Lion Leap. So like a thousand people will come into. a bar and it's neurothemed and whatever. but are those people really there for. you or are they there for a cool event. that you're paying for? [laughter]. But wouldn't that help the brand just. like you become a cool brand or cool. event where everybody wants to get an. access but nobody can or maybe like. they're waiting for the next. >> and we did something like that in New. York as well where it was like a bigger.

event and like there was limited access. there were cool people there you know we. brought our celebrity partners and stuff. in. >> but I think it's easy to find something. that feels like the cool party to go to. that night that's sponsored by the thing. but you. the the essence of the brand gets lost. >> It just becomes an event. >> But if it's a tight community like this. K1 thing with 50 people, 60 people, they're all talking to each other within.

uh under the roof of Neuro. So obviously. the main thing for all these people. here, the common denominator is Neuro. >> versus a big event, the common. denominator is a cool party. >> Yeah. Like everyone's college is going, so I want to go. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It'll go many head. on. >> And I think a lot of people get lost in. the sauce with that a little bit. I'm. trying to think of like other brands. that still do big events. And. I I only like the Fortune50 companies. that I know do do that, you know.

>> So here's a question on that. So let's. say there are two events, right? One. event which is like the 50, 100, 200. people max. You're not going to scale it. beyond that because you want to create. tight-knit community. >> Yeah. >> Right. And one is thousand people, 2,000. people, 3,000 people like big large. event. You take like the big creator. house and then throw a big party and. everybody's there, everybody's posting. pictures, stuff like that. Two. completely different events. What will give you more number of. eyeballs and cool factor on social and.

digital content point of view which will. help your brand doing these smaller. events because at the price of that one. event probably you can do five of these. events. >> or like 10 of these events. I'll say a. little hack that we do also though. because it's not it's not binary like. big events actually do work sometimes. because it depends on who's coming to. the event and how you want to show off, right? >> Okay. >> So, at Expo West, Doodles did a great. job. They just got sold to Borilla, but.

they did a massive they did the biggest. party at Expo West because they knew. retailers were going to come, they knew. influencers were come, and they knew. everyone at Expo West was going to come. to that event because that was the cool. event for everyone to go to. And then. they made an impact to those retailers. to be like this is the type of stuff. that we do. This is how big we go. And. so they got a bunch of sales because of. that and places to go into. They did. also something very genius which um they. charged other brands. They set up the.

event. They charged other brands to. activate alongside them. So they made. their money back from other from other. brands sponsoring that event. >> No, I didn't. >> But they were the main sponsor. So, they. were the main sponsor for this event, >> okay? >> They built this huge thing. >> and the event is by them. >> The event is by them. >> Okay. >> But they got 10 other brands to pay them. like $10,000, $20,000 to activate their. products. >> in that space. [clears throat]. >> It's Yeah, >> it's fine. Make the money back. >> So, they made the money back by by going. that big. And, you know,

we were talking about that internally, too, where like so many other brands. donate product to us um for our. partnerships when we activate. So it. makes it a lot more interesting that if. we throw something big enough, we just. charge other brands probably to activate. alongside us, but it's still a neuro. event. >> that just get free goodies for. So. that's a very costefficient way to get. eyeballs while also leveraging the fact. that you invested into this really. massive hop of an event, right? But on.

the flip side, a Pilates studio, a. smaller community, all those things is. everything we talked about. That's a. community of people under the common. denominator of neuro talking about your. product, experiencing this shared thing. together. that then goes out and will always. remember that oh that neuropilates thing. was great. Interesting. So now that you. talk about this community, give me three. communities to tap into the smaller. communities for a new brand for 2027.

which are going to become a trend or. which are already becoming trend and. they're underrated and underpriced. attention. You can get them. >> like Pilates is big now. I don't want to. use Pilates. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Like everybody knows the Pilates play. >> What kind of brand? What kind of brand? >> Any. >> a performance brand? >> Yeah. Let's say CPG brand, >> performance brand. Okay. Let's build. anti-performance brand like anti energy. brand. Let's build a calm brand. >> Okay. Okay. A calm brand. Let's let's. say a calm brand because you're so. stressed out. Let's go back with the. sleep thing, but not for sleep. It's. like for. >> calm. Yeah. Like there's so much stress.

in the world. Declutter. >> engineers. Uh, are you able to get into corporate. campuses, corporate cafeterias? Like I. have friends brands that have gone in, they work with there's distributors in. the United States like canteen, PFG that. work with Twitter offices or ex offices, uh, meta offices and things like that. and just sell into those cafeterias. That is an ecosystem of people that are. working 24/7 and they go to the.

cafeteria and they pick up your brand. every single day. I think that is a huge. opportunity for a lot of brands if you. could break into that. >> Interesting. >> Because those are people that are. stressed out also. >> Yeah. The cool brands. The cool brands. Yeah. So that's one like so something. like that corporate campuses and with. the AI revolution are you able to tap. into budding entrepreneurs and AI. engineers that um if it's a com product. especially like those are the people. that. it's the easiest way to get uh the word.

out because you're diving into a budding. industry. >> Um. are there other uh ecosystems that I've. seen that are pretty interesting right. now? >> Yeah. Which are budding? So you said. cool campuses, college, corporate. hustle, cool startups, that gang. I love. that idea by the way. >> Yeah. >> Love it, >> right? Like it's because they're already. in that environment. >> and they're high paying audiences that. that's another essence. They're high. >> These are the guys who talk a lot more. These are like close-knit community on.

if two managers or two leaders start. drinking, everybody worships their. leaders. So everybody starts doing it as. a cult-like behavior as well. I love. this. This a great. >> There's another one. So running has. become really really big again. But I'm. going to take a step back. It's not the. running. People aren't drinking alcohol. anymore. >> Yeah. >> But people are people. They still want. to feel something. They still want to. kind of like get high on something, you. know, like whatever it is. So is there.

spaces that people can enjoy a social. lubricant in some way or even if it's. feeling if it's a calm product where. they're feeling calm like retreats like. there now there's like wellness retreats. are getting really really big um morning. like for a product like Neuro we do like. Diplo run club where it's a morning. event that starts at 7:00 a.m. And then. Diplo has uh DJ set at 10. So no one's.

drinking but they still want to feel. energy. So they take something like. Neuroga. >> But for that that makes a great for. energy brand, not for the calm brand. >> Yeah. But for a combrand, a wellness. retreat is perfect. So have you seen. these? Like there's like these week-long. retreats now where um you put your phone. away like you it's called digital detox. >> Yeah. But those are the people they're. drinking like peas and like. >> before product. But if it's a calm. product, >> is that the space where it's like if I. really want to stress. >> or.

that's maybe once they come back into. reality, you know, we're just. brainstorming right now too, right? >> So it's like. >> so wellness retreats, wellness. community. It's any environment. And if. there's like a third one, you know, like. like the the through line with all. these, by the way, is. [laughter and gasps]. every you know, there's the cult of. Apple. The there's the word cult that's. like gets used. We were even you like. they're like the cult leader of a. corporate campus. If you know, whatever. the the boss is, if Jensen Wang is doing.

something, eating fried chicken, you're. probably going to go every Yeah. Right. >> [laughter and gasps]. >> It's like those are the ecosystems you. tap into in a running club. If Diplo. starts a run club and everyone goes to. see him as a DJ and he's throwing your. like there's videos of him throwing. neurogum into the crowd, you know, like. everyone's chewing neurogum there. >> Like. >> what's the environment? I would say that. there's there's almost like a cultlike. following that's already built in and. you could get that one person. All you.

need to do is just tap into that one. person to get everyone else involved. Yeah. But where is that cult? like you. the wellness cult will be there. corporate cult cult what's the third. cult I know what's the third cult what. is becoming which is a which is small. community which you see becoming big. >> h. I mean I think I actually think. with. well I I don't know it's that's a good. question like cuz there's so many.

there's so many micro communities I. think about like podcast communities too. like when people are listening to you. I. I use the word again I'm using the word. cult in a specific very specific way but. why does your audience listen to you. because and why would brands work with. you right you've already built trust by. the audience you it goes back to the. brand values you built all these things. where your audience trusts you so if I'm. working not even as like an experiential. event like if we take a step back from.

events but go back into people to tap. into. Who is the most reliable voice that. already has an audience that trusts them. like crazy. that allows that trust to be translated. to their audience? And I think that's. that's a framework to think about just. in general whatever it is for. experiences, marketing, whatever. I'm now thinking. I'm thinking like which can be who is.

this person who's built this trust is. underrated right now. That's a goal in. mind. >> Who who who do you have in mind? >> I don't I don't have anyone in mind. Podcast is pretty known. Creator armies. is pretty known. >> Uh like corporate was good. Like that's. a good example. That's something. underrated like engineers specifically. very niche uh very strong. run clubs is becoming popular so I would. still say. >> run clubs are run club you know.

everybody knows now and then run club is. becoming a thing. >> you know what's funny like a lot of. people are sponsoring pickle ball but. pickle ball has not done well for brands. >> because when I go play pickle ball with. my friend I'm not thinking of a brand. when I play you know it's just like a. thing I go to the tennis court to do. >> Yeah. It It's super competitive. So, like [laughter] with friends, so it's. you're not thinking about brands. >> Yeah. >> So, it has to be an ecosystem that's not. And that's why I didn't say something. like a pickle ball or like. >> Yeah.

>> Um aloe is perfect in Pilates because. you can look sexy while you're doing. it's like so perfect, right? There is. like this visible. impact. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> of what you wear in that environment. So, is there something like that also. with your supplement brand? [snorts]. It's not just handing out the drinks, but it is like. it goes back to feeling. >> Yeah. What is that feeling? Good. That's. a question for everyone with their. brands to think about. >> Like that's that's a good question that.

h [clears throat]. this person who has accumulated trust in. a small micro community. who is able to create a similar feeling. that your brand is trying to create. If. you can tap into that, >> that's going to be a gold one for you. >> And that's a hard question, but hard. questions exist because when you crack. them, that's when your brand can take. off, right? >> Yeah. Like there's a reward at the end. of the rainbow. >> Yeah. That's it's it's a question worth. cracking. >> A question worth [laughter].

it's a good one. Okay. Here are last two. things I want to touch. Okay. Uh. actually three things. [laughter]. >> We're gonna go on for two more hours. >> Yeah. >> Let's go. >> Let's go. Okay. The first is hiring. because you said the perfect alo girl. I. think that's. that goes with every brand. >> Yeah. >> The person who you hire is going to be. the perfect neuro guy or the neuro girl. >> Like that is the single most. >> important thing that any brand can do.

Like because for us it's like anyone we. hire. we need to see that do they have. figuring out attitude or not. >> Yeah. And we've defined figuring out. attitude very clearly. >> Yeah. >> If they don't have then they're not fit. for our work workplace. So how do you. hire? What is the essential thing? What. do you look for people? What are you. looking for in the most a bad hire could. ruin your business? And everyone knows. that. You know, it's like an adage. that's been told many times over, but a.

good hire can obviously transform your. business. And the thing with a good hire. is it could go at many levels. Obviously, you want the experience. um. depending on the level you're hiring. for, you want like a certain level of. experience that translates into the work. that you want. But more important than. that is a scorecard of how they fit into. the culture and the culture of the. people that they're working with. directly. So if you're a smaller. company, that person better become your. best friend, you know, like Ryan, right? Like Ryan's my brother. So for me and.

him to be working together as. co-founders and building this business, it made sense because the trust and the. friendship was already there and we knew. that that wasn't going to deteriorate. Phase two, because we're a small company, who are. other people that are bought into the. vision that have the work ethic that we. do that's really to figure things out. with you. And problem solving is like. the number one value that we look for in. every single employee. and why I keep saying humility. I've.

probably used the word humility like 50. times in this podcast. Even if you're the most experienced. person in the world, every company that. you work for, every single day of your. life even is a different experience. And. to solve problems is to be able to. adapt. And to be able to adapt is the. basis of evolving, of evolution, of. evolving as a human being, is evolving. as a company. And so to take a step back.

and refine everything I just said. because I just said a lot. Trust. Is it a person that you have. trust in for an experiential level but. also a personal level? That's one. because you're working alongside them. every single day and you don't want them. to backstab you. Um two uh is there. humility involved? Is this person. willing to admit their mistakes so that. they could learn from it? And are other. people, including myself as like a CEO,

not willing to punish people for. mistakes just because they made one, but. instead turn into a learning experience. because you have the humility to be able. to. >> get past it. Which leads into the third. thing. Are they a problem solver in that. regard? If a mistake or a problem does. happen in the business, do we all get. together and it's just like like solving. a problem should be fun? And in fact, like the way we build our company like. you know in the past we used to have.

really ambitious milestones that we. would try to hit and we would try to. like do these like AOP annual operating. plan sessions that were like we need to. hit these goals this year like because. this is how a startup should be growing. If you make your milestones simple. enough that you could be able to hit. them one, [snorts]. but it's still ambitious, you know, like. but there has to be like clear, easily. defined, accessible and reachable. milestones for any business that.

everyone targets. That's so easy to. understand. The morale of the company stays high. because those milestones are, you know, it just takes a little bit of work to. achieve them. It's a carrot that's dangling far enough. away that people are still working. because they know that they could grab. it and then it creates this great. culture of people that are working. towards goals that are easy to. understand. >> So that's that's kind of the framework.

for hiring and like how you build pro. like um what are the problem solving. mechanisms for those hires that everyone. could work towards. But let's go one. step back and help the fellow founders. hire better. These are the things that. you look for. What are the questions you. ask in hiring so that you get to know. these things? What's your favorite. question to ask? >> What do you do for fun? >> What? >> What do you do for fun? >> Why? Why this? >> What do you do for fun? >> Oh, you're asking me? [laughter] I'm.

asking you. I want to see how you. answer. >> I love watching movies. >> Why do you like movies? Like what about movies is it that that. you like? >> I I go from I have a big range. So I. love watching movies because it always. surprises me. Sometimes I'll watch like. completely senseless action movie that. one one person's punching from here and. then they're flying out of the shop. >> And then sometimes I'll find really. in-depth movies where I'm getting. inspired or like finding some crack. So.

I love this range of emotions which. makes me more human. That's why I like. movies and that's what I do for fun. So. now I just learned about you from what. you do outside of work that there's a. range of emotions like at a human level. that you're tapping into when you watch. movies which you love because of this. that [sighs and gasps]. like when you ask about just experiences. we're not transaction like humans. shouldn't be transactional like things. are transactional but you know humans. shouldn't be transactional rather it is.

how are you creating an environment for. not just yourself but all other. employees where the things that we do. outside of work, who what we're. personally passionate about are able to. be utilized to bring new opinions, new. thoughts to create a company that's not. just we sell product to make money, >> right? >> And then that's culture. That's new ideas to solve problems. because you could a problem requires.

different angles to solve. Um, and. that is uh ultimately someone that you. could trust because you know that. they're human. >> Interesting. So you would ask let's say. >> and this is me hiring at a CEO level by. the way. So this is me asking those. questions. >> Let's take a step back actually. >> because if you're a starting. entrepreneur, what are the exact things that you need? Right? someone that's willing to stay up.

with you because you're just launching a. business and that requires an extra. level of work. So, what's that. personality trait that you're looking. for for that person that's driven and. ambitious enough to do that more so than. experience? Although experience does. help. M. And then on top of that, if. someone is working so so hard in your. communication piece, are you realizing. that that person is not going to break. and crack under stress and pressure and.

turn into like the worst employee you'll. ever hire? [laughter]. And there's this book actually the. co-founder of RXBar, Jared, um Jared. Smith, who's also a great friend of. mine, [gasps]. uh recommended when we first started. is. a book called who the process to hire. fantastic book and it goes through and I. recommend everyone read it alongside. high output management from the CEO of. IBM those are two great books that tie. in with each other. [gasps]. What is the scorecard that you are.

building from a culture experience um. and output model to find the right. employee and then with the high output. management he talks about the machine. If you are building a machine, a machine. could just be all this work and engine. cranking um like a big engine that's. cranking to create the output. But. eventually as a company grows, you want. higher output. So you start adding more. gears into it. You have to have the. understanding through your hiring what.

those most efficient gears are to get. the highest output. And so when you. combine those two thought processes. together, the scorecard of the culture, the trust, the problem solving, all all. that stuff uh and the experience into. you as CEO, the vision of what's going. to be the most efficient thing, the most. important gears to put into your machine. to get the best output, you start creating a framework for. organization. You start creating a. framework for what you need to hire. and.

you don't think about gears that don't. make sense. >> Interesting. Wow. It's a pretty. complicated one to actually implement, but it's a great way to start thinking. about a framework when you're when. you're hiring or trying to build a. culture because that scorecard is going. to reveal a lot of things about you and. how you're going to take decisions in. your company. >> Yeah, exactly. And again, like I like. asking the what do you do for fun. question because like at my level, I'm. like the last Yeah. >> interview, right? To me, I just want to.

know that who we're hiring is a human. being at the end of the day. Like. someone that's not in there just to do. the work because like work's work, but. someone who's passionate, cares about. the business, brings new insights is. leveling everyone else up. So why? So, okay. So, for you to know, it is important for you to know that I. watch movies and I enjoy range of. emotions because you want to see that. I'm not a robot. That's part that's kind of partly it. I.

mean, a company is made of people. >> and I want to be hanging out with a. bunch of people I like. [laughter]. >> Yeah. Like you want to test like can I. actually enjoy certain emotions and that. I can tell you through what I do for. fun. Even if I'm like competitive sports. athlete outside, you'll get to know, okay, there's competition, there's. compassion, there's empathy for team. members, there's this guy knows how to. lose, this guy know how to win. And. what's also awesome is like and and if. the thing you said that was fun is. really unique. That's really interesting.

to me. If it was something that's so. different from what everyone else does. in like a way that I know is not going. to fit. Then when everyone gets together. like it's so much more fun. What's crazy. is like when everyone gets together when. they're in the office. they're always talking about work. [laughter]. Like you've been in that environment. before, they're always talking about. work. But in that moment of work, if. there's unique things about people, that. unique thing comes into that.

conversation of work. And so like the. work becomes that much more of a bigger. web to pull. It's. >> it's like cool to see actually when like. so many different opinions come into. play and then it turns into this like. whoa, I never thought like someone's. into trapeze or something. Whatever. Who. cares? Like. like, "Wow, that's how you like think. about fear as a trapeze artist. Now. you're translating that into your.

business." Like how I overcome fear to. do this thing, right? It's it's in like. I'm I'm a creative at that. I I paint. murals. I do art, you know. Also, like. what makes a good artist to be able to. take all your different experiences and. distill it down into you and then output. it into a visual language. >> Nice. >> And I think it's the same way with the. business. >> Nice. See, there there's definitely a. reason you you're so well thought of and. you think about so many little things.

and so many things in such a deeper. level. It's very refreshing and. interesting to talk to you. >> Thanks. [laughter] I'm like really happy. we did this and that probably is the. reason why you're one of these rare. brands which is growing globally which. is. a D2C brand going global is is very. rare. It's it's probably unheard of so. fast like that's that's another thing. because it's difficult. You usually need.

like a large giant like universe of the. world to go global. >> No. And they usually mess it up. [laughter]. Yeah, like it's it's very difficult. So. how how are you going global so fast so. nicely and every country is accepting. you? I think well I mean you talked to. Ravi and Anna and like them like Anna's. awesome like you know these people that. we work with and I. if there's different. cuz I don't know the culture of India.

obviously and you need to work with the. localization agency but a lot of. localization agencies that you typically. tend to work with look at your product. they look at your marketing documents. and then they're just like okay let's. just sell the products into these. different areas. what Anna and the team and Lubo and all. those guys did who like I talk to all. the time and they have the same like fun. personality. They have so many unique. different perspectives um and they bring. to the Indian market with Saga and all. those guys to to the table is.

what are all these fun unique things. that Neuro is doing in the US and what. is that exact same or similar thing that. exists in India that we could tap into. So, you know, they're tapping into like. the engineers. Like, we've been talking. about that. They're tapping into the. engineers. They're doing these like fun. pop-up events that tap into that exact. same audience like the influencers that. they're using or all like that same they. carry that same feeling and brand. tonality. And if you don't have clarity.

around and also like I have very hard. phone calls with them from time to time, you know, I'm like why the hell are we. doing this? This doesn't fit our brand. Because if you lose that essence of the. brand, it could be for a different. culture and that's fine. But the essence. of human beings is still the same. >> no matter where you go. >> Yeah. >> And it's the same with the brand. If you. lose that essence, then that brand. starts turning to this other thing and. that's where they fail eventually cuz. they're just spending money spending. money to try to make something that's. not them work. >> But I still didn't get like how are you.

growing like how every country is. accepting you because you hire local. That's why. >> local is it? But there has to be. something else which is so unique and. global that you're you're able to expand. this so fast like why. >> how is your word or your brand's name is. reaching countries before your product. So, I think, you know, I wish it was I. wish there was like a formula to it, but. you know, like again, like I said at the. very beginning of the podcast, um the.

decisions you make all lead to the. synchronicity of timing, which equals. luck. >> and for us, Joe Rogan has a global. audience. We partnered chess.com, the. founder of chess.com, Danny, loves our. product. So, we partner with chess.com. And guess where more people play chess. than any other place in the world? India. >> India. [laughter]. like so we've had this huge audience in. India already. We realized that there. was a manufacturing hub that we could. create in India that was effective. >> So we launched into it. Now our margins. are good. Chess.com is big. People.

listen to Joe Rogan out there. Um that. was like a really easy entry point from. the big launch thing we were talking. about earlier. Like oh how do you make a. big splash before you enter into a a. country? And then when you back that up. with all the little micro influencers. that are adjacent to it, now we start. growing. And then how do you keep. amplifying that? We haven't started with. creators yet in India, but we have. started with influencers. And that's a.

start into getting into creators. And. now there's already chess.com. How do we blast out to all the chess. influencers in the world, you know, like. into the Indian market? Like that's. already a community we tapped into. That's their Pilates. [laughter]. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> And now what's the next thing? >> Yeah. Mental Pilates. Now what's the. next thing? And keep going and keep. going. >> And so we tried to be conscious about. the places we we launched. You know, India wasn't really on my list of places. to launch. But it like all just made too.

much sense from the the fact that it's a. young developing economy, engineers, uh. chess chess being big there. Um the. influencers that we use in the US. translating to the places over there. Um, so it's it's so funny that again. decision and timing equals. synchronicity. The synchronicity of all. those things that we were doing in the. US happened to line up with a great team. that we had in India to be able to. launch and find success there very very.

quickly. >> And why India? There are so many countries in the. world. >> Dude, I mean all again all those things. India, dude, India's on the comeup. It's pretty sick like you saw the come. up. >> like. >> American movie culture there you start. seeing like more Indian actors Bollywood. is the second biggest. like conglome media entertainment. conglomerate in the world there are. people like um what was his name Khan um.

like there's some people that have more. followers than like. >> are you talking about Shadow Khan. >> Shadow Khan he's like a [laughter] god. you know it's crazy is in India. Yeah. >> But like and then again there's so much. investment that was going and I actually. have investments in India too because. the community of all those people that. were being outsourced to the United this. is getting into econ economics by the. way but um what's so crazy is like 10.

years ago all these Indian engineers uh. there was a workforce being built out. there because they were all outsourced. labor into the United States. Now that. we've reached this technological. revolution that's global, those. engineers are leaders in their industry. building technological hubs in India. which has a lot of resources, a lot of. incredible universities with young. talent becoming even better engineers. and a lot of opportunities because India.

is going from a third world economy like. similar to how China was like 20 30. years ago, with dang it's like it was. becoming a third world second world into. a first world economy and I think the. that gap of the middle class is creating. a lot of um incredible space for people. to build innovation technology and. things like that. >> true and I completely agree with. everything that you said and more agree. I agree more with the part that you said.

India's young ambitious audience so. that's a product like these like make. complete sense because The ambition is. on the rise like you. >> you have these you have so many. countries which are. who are coming back and but the age is. not on the side. >> Yeah. >> The you know the ambition the hustle is. not on their side. The income is on. their side and they're making more money. and they're getting richer and richer. but the hustle and ambition and this all. innovation wave India is like just.

getting started. >> It's pretty cool man. >> Pretty cool. It's the time to be in. India and keep building it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Here's a question. What's the most. expensive mistake you made during your. during your neuro career? [laughter]. >> So many expense. I mean, >> there one mistake that all founders. should avoid and you were like I you put. in bunch of dollars and then you got. like. >> dude. I'm gonna name a hundred mistakes,

man. Like there's so many mistakes. I. mean, even going from. like certain packaging, you're investing. into certain places you're ordering. packaging from, um, influencers that. you're hiring that do like literally. nothing, although they have a huge name. It's like, how does someone with. millions of followers not like do. generate any money? >> Zero links. >> But yeah, it's it's mind-blowing. Um, so.

let me flip that question because this. is something I' I've mentioned before. and it's um it's a great story. >> and it's what allowed us to become. friends with one of the sharks on Shark. Tank. >> And go back Daniel Lubetski, founder of. Kindar. >> It wasn't necessarily a mistake, but. um it was a little bit of planning that. could have happened with our trademark. Uh we secured it for our category gum. and mints everything. Um it was very.

strong and we went on Shark Tank as Nuro. and after we launched you know to us it. was very successful like although we. didn't get a deal. a company owned by someone worth $100. million came in and sued us. >> Why? >> Uh because she she had a company called. Neuro Drinks that she was just like you. took my name this that I'm worth all. this money. Yeah, I'm going to sue you. guys into the ground. And Ryan and I I. just remember it was like that would. have been the most expensive. I mean, it.

would have bankrupted our company for. sure because this person had so much. money and we just like we were a. startup. [snorts]. >> Ryan DM'd Daniel Lubeki on Instagram, who's worth $3 billion by the way. Um, and was like, "Daniel, you said we could. come and ask for your help if we ever. needed it on the show." Well, this is us. asking for help. We're being sued and. our company's going to go under unless. someone helps us. Janu Lubetski hopped. onto that call with that lady and was.

like, "Look, lady, I'm worth 30x more. than you. Like, I know you're worth. hundreds of millions of dollars, but I'm. literally worth way more than you. Uh, these are my friends. If you don't back. off from this lawsuit, like, I will. counter sue you. I will back these guys. up and I'll run you into the ground.". And the lady backed off. No way. Saved. our business. Three years later, we go. back on Shark Tank and Daniel Levesky. invest in us. >> Isn't that crazy? >> Wow. >> Yeah. [laughter] So, I think it was one.

of those things where it's not. necessarily a mistake. I mean, we could. have done the pre-planning and. everything, but it was a moment where it. would have destroyed our business. >> And. >> there's no mistakes, right? There's no. mistakes. Everything's an opportunity to. problem solve. That was a moment that we. took the opportunity that Daniel said, never close that door, and ask for help. And with that help, we're now the only. brand to go back on Shark Tank, who. didn't get a deal the first time, get a. deal the second time. >> But dude, such a kind human being. He's. the best. Kind He literally represents.

the name of his brand. Kind. >> Exactly. This is values. Incredible value. He was not your. friend. He had no no vested interest. He. didn't even ask a piece of your business. after that. Nothing at all. He didn't. use that as a leverage be like, "Hey, I'm going to help. nothing. He was an entrepreneur that. knew how hard it was to be to build a. business. And he came and was just like, "These kids are ambitious, young, they're building something great.

I'm not going to let a stupid lawsuit. hold them back.". >> Wow. Pretty cool, right? Very cool. Very. [laughter] good. Um, these are the. stories that love I love. This is you in. the startup community. You must have. heard this a lot. This is what we call. pay it forward. >> Exactly. >> Right. And that's why entrepreneurs help. other entrepreneurs so much. And I love. this community all around the world. No. matter what size you are, you're making. like $100,000 or you're making like. hundred billion. If you're an. entrepreneur saying you've done it all.

your all by yourself, >> you started it. You're the first. generation. You know how it is. And you. pay it forward. >> It's And you know, you don't see that in. the. >> in these large corporate greed joints. They don't help. They. >> cuz they don't know. >> Yeah. Yeah, >> they've never had to deal with like. Daniel was making his bars in his. kitchen, you know, like was going. through the struggle wearing the Kind. bar suit, running around [laughter] as a. like Yeah, he looks like a serious. entrepreneur now, but he did all the. same things we did.

>> Yeah. >> You know, >> this is Dude, this [clears throat] is so. amazing. >> It's cool. >> It's the best. Starting a start a. business. >> Yeah. >> People will help you. Trust me. >> You the best. It's hard, but it is the. most rewarding thing in the world. Yep, it is, man. It's amazing. I I love it. That was such a good story. Ah, >> yeah. >> So, that wasn't that would have been a. costly experiment. [laughter]. >> Really costly for you. >> And do you know who doesn't care? Actually, like entrepreneurs care and. will help you. Lawyers do not care.

[laughter]. >> They'll be like, "Okay, yeah, we'll help. you, but. >> yeah, give me money.". >> How much money do you have in your bank? 10 million. I can make it work. >> Yeah. Yeah. Why do you need to know that? [laughter]. >> Nice. Okay. Here's if if an entrepreneur. is watching there's someone who want to. become an entrepreneur want entrepreneur. okay. >> wants to build a brand don't know in. which category where do you think what. is the next category or what is this one. idea where somebody could build a.

billion dollar brand next. >> which do you feel like if you were you. if you were building it again and you. would have built in this category. because it's untapped. >> I mean there's a boom with AI obviously. right now and there's fast sales. happening, but I I do think that it's. like you're not really building a brand, you know? I do think in the future stress is going. to be a very very big thing like we were. talking about and we're going to be so.

digitally trapped. I mean, I have like. apps that block my apps like on my. phone, you know, so I I try not to be on. social media too often, but uh unless I. need to. But I think there's going to be. a culture of this next generation that's. going to want to find fulfillment. outside of the digital space. So any. product that satisfies that I think will. be very very big. I don't know what it. is but there is definitely with with.

every movement there's a counterculture. So there's a way to tap into that. counterculture. So stress and and. >> cutting down the chaos like just that. that kind of like I there's. >> what form factor what do you think like. so you want to you want to solve stress. >> so there's companies like brick that are. doing the like over $und00 million have. you heard of brick? >> No. What are they doing? It is literally. just an attachment to your phone that.

blocks all your social media and then. you put it and then only when you put it. on a device like you could access all. your social media as much as you want. So when you're out and about like you're. present. >> Nice. I like that. >> Such a simple idea, you know, but it's. crazy. There's like non-s smartphones. coming out now. Like I heard college. kids are using Nokia phones again. because they want to be more present. Like I I think that's going to be a. really big especially with AI the the.

trust on the internet is deteriorating. pretty fast. So, where are people going. to go find trust now? In person events, between their friends, smaller. communities, you know, >> how do you tap into that? And I don't. know a product. I mean, you know, it. could be anything like literally. >> a gum, >> like a gum. Yeah. It could be anything. like a drink. But I I think it has to. like exist within that like framework.

for the future if you're thinking it. forward or you ride the wave of what. exists now you go crazy on AI like it's. it's either. >> Yeah. Yeah. True. [snorts]. >> True. The stress is going to be a big. market and usually throughout the. history sex, stress, sleep, these are. like three biggest markets no matter. what you do. >> That's never going to change by the way. That's never ever going to change. And. any pick up, any body part, any feeling internal or external, you.

can just think of these three things and. make a product. Just play the match the. following and play it. >> Yeah. >> So think about like hair. So hair loss, you can just match like oh because of. stress, hair loss, boom. And then. >> psychological triggers. >> and then you make something out of it. No, >> you want to make let's say lack of sleep. then like let's say lack of sleep. because of stress because of bad sex. because of tessterone up and down. whatever like cortisol up and down just. stuff like that you can just play match. the following between these three and.

like any body part and you can build a. brand. >> you know what's so fun. >> in a new form factor. >> as an economy becomes more and more uh. comfortable in many ways and like we. live in a very comfortable econ it's a. little stressful now like with political. tension But people have the opportunity. to think about those things like they. start thinking more deeply about like. how do I. better my life in some way. So.

that's an opportunity like you know I've. been talking to my friends about I think. perry menopause is really interesting. I'm obviously not a woman, but my wife. just gave birth and like I know she's. probably going to see it, but all these. people, these women, more women got. hired into the workforce last year than. men did for the first time in a very, very, very long time in American. history. And now there's 35 to 40. 45year-old executive females that want.

to be as ambitious as males, but their. biological systems make it kind of hard. because they're going through. parmenopause. You know, they're going. through like there's just things, right? Like biologically men and women are. different. And so I do think there's a. major opportunity there for these. ambitious women coming into the. workforce that are making a real big. impact to tap into that community in the. same way men got tapped into like maybe. 10 years prior. >> True. True. I also feel on the other.

side. just like ambitious women as a big. category and big opportunity for people. to build brands. I think there's a big. category and big opportunity for male. hormones. Nobody talks about there can. be a new category to be built. >> I agree. I agree. How you feel? Right. >> Okay. Here are the last three questions. which I ask everybody. Yeah. There's. like oneliners. >> So first is. >> should I be nervous? >> No. No. No. These are like the basic. ones but I like asking them because it. tells me a lot about other person. So I.

I like it. >> What is one advice that nobody should. follow? >> Um. hard work. it. How do I frame it? Um. like I'll sleep when I'm dead. That. that's a good way to phrase it. I see. these entrepreneurs that work themselves. to death. You know, they're like sleep. is for the week. I was like this, you. know, >> I was like this till 6 months ago. [laughter]. >> And don't you feel better?

>> Much better. >> And you're thinking more clearly. And do. you know the most important thing for a. leader is this? How your brain works. And when you're sleeping 2 3 4 hours a. night, I mean, which I was doing, I was. sleeping like I would do this thing. called the Superman cycle. I would sleep. for literally an hour and a half, force. myself to wake up, work for 4 hours, sleep an hour and a half like throughout. the day. It was I I killed myself. It. was crazy. So, this idea of I'll sleep. when I'm dead. I'm going to work my ass. off right now and I don't need sleep is.

advice no one should follow. I mean. actually the David Sinclair episode cuz. we were talking about it also. Um the I. think like the four things stop drinking. so much, sleep well and go work out and. then uh don't be stressed. [laughter]. >> Simple things. >> Simple things but that I think is a good. mantra for how you could operate at your. highest level. >> True. True. What is the most. extraordinary thing you want to do next? I think there's so we only have one.

planet to live on and um very. unfortunately I think as human beings. and with innovation and the beauty of. innovation um we destroy a lot of. resources to be able to get there. I. think there's an incredible opportunity. and untapped opportunity with the ocean. how many things are undiscovered with. the ocean that I would love to go into, especially as someone that I love spear. fishing, you know, sustainable practices. to catch fish. Um I think uh I grew up.

next to the ocean. I love surfing, all. those things. It's so the next. extraordinary thing that I would love to. dive into um one of them is how do we. build more sustainable ecosystems. leveraging. the largest. um the largest resource we have which. makes up 70% of the world the ocean. [clears throat]. >> Nice. What cost did you pay to become. the founder of a brand which is one of.

the fastest growing brands in the world? So, [sighs]. you know, I've never had a W2, like I. said, like an employment document. The first. after college, my friends got tech jobs. They were making good money. I was. sleeping on couches. I was staying in. hospitals, you know, I was picking up. odd jobs. And through that process, I. unfortunately lost friends who.

didn't like know how to hang out with me. during those times, obviously because. they were making so much money in tech. Um, it was a blessing in disguise because. those friends that I lost during that. time period, I realized weren't really. true friends though. And then those. friends that even who did have those. tech jobs who are still like some of my. best friends now. stuck with the ambitions that we had. knowing that like we were doing. something great to create what we're. doing. So, um.

I don't know. I I guess the sacrifices I. I didn't really live like a a typical, you know, like I didn't party that much. in college because I was fighting all. the time as a professional fighter and I. was traveling, but that's like the only. world I knew. So, it doesn't feel like. it doesn't feel like I missed out on. anything. Like I lived a great life. After college, I did I wanted to do my. own thing. So I did all these things. that were stressful and tiring and. whatever, but. I had so many crazy experiences because.

of that, you know. So like. that question. like you can see the optimism in me, you. know, like. >> I don't even think about stuff like. that. [laughter] Like I don't even think. about like. >> there are no sacrifice. >> Yeah. Like there's no sacrifices. Everything is for a reason and that's. why I'm here and I'm grateful to be here. obviously. But the friends that you lost. during the process, the sleep that you. lost or like the maniac that you became, all of that or would you do it again? >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah.

>> So there's no sacrifices. Love it. >> There's no sacrif Yeah. It's all it was. all worth it. No regret. >> And it's going to be worth it. Pressure. makes diamonds. Like just you just kind. of have to keep going, you know? Like. everything is worth it if you believe. it's going to be worth it. But you have. to believe. >> Yeah. Law of attraction. >> Yeah. I I believe in all of those things. as well. Yeah. >> Well, thank you so much. It was a. pleasure having you. Thank you so much. for doing this. >> and bearing with us for a couple of. hours. >> That was great. Thanks, man. >> Thank you. Thank you for watching this. episode till the end. We would love to.

know what you liked or disliked about. this episode and which guests you would. like to see on the show. Let us know in. the comments. Your feedback help us. improve and make every episode a little. better. I'll see you next time. Until. then, keep figuring out.