Britain's Spy Lawyer: How Agents Get Approval to Break the Law | David Bickford | FO569 Raj Shamani

The amount of cocaine that's consumed in. London is is outrageous. They think it's a fun thing to do like. alcohol. They don't realize what they're. doing. That's the problem. What? Well, if you go back to the origins of. cocaine, where does it come from? Comes. from Colombia, South America, where it's. grown. And you've got farmers who are. being oppressed by the drugs lords. You've got intergang warfare where. people are being killed. Then the drugs.

get transferred over to the UK. They're. in a direct chain from murder, mayhem, torture, rape, all the rest of it. They're part of it. >> You've also said somewhere that. organized crime is more dangerous than. terrorism. Why? >> You can see terrorism. You can see the. bombings and killings. You can see the organizations. It's. open. [music]. Organized crime isn't. It's insidious. You know, it goes into money laundering,

goes into cafes and pubs and um. prostitution, fraud. The problem is the. amount of money that can be made is. huge. >> What do you think is the biggest problem. for all the agencies in the world today? >> Fraud is extremely difficult. Trying to. trace back where it comes cuz comes out. of the dark web. Arms trafficking. >> You were the legal director for MI5. >> I'm six. When the top intelligence. agencies when they are recruiting.

somebody, what are they looking for? >> At the top of the list of any. intelligence agent is integrity because. their whole essence is to go out and. pretend to be someone they're not. And to tell lies, to draw people in, very careful lies, mark you, because if. you're found out, you're in trouble. >> What do you look for? They're like, "Oh, this is golden. I want to hire this.". >> They're determined. They have a lot of. patience. Some operations can take years. to come to fruition and balance to.

understand people to understand how far. you can go how far you can't. Those are. the really important qualities of an. intelligence agent. [music]. >> What are the powers of an intelligence. officer? >> Yeah, good. They can follow people. around. They can investigate their. background against their right to. privacy. Entering somebody's property, for instance, stealing their documents. or or that sort of thing. how easy it is to make passports and. give like multiple countries passport to. one person. >> You know, if you go down the pub, you.

can always get a passport. Oh, >> really? You can get a fake passport on. an internet. >> Mhm. >> On some website. >> Deep deep net. Yeah. >> Did you ever had any fake passport in. your life? >> Yes, I did. >> These are different passports. This is. British, US, India, Saudi Arabia, Japan, Pakistan, Republic of Korea. Which is. the easiest passport to get out of all. of them? Now, I'll tell you something. >> That is scary.

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the first time right who are you and. what have you done in past. >> and why should somebody watch this? Because my loose framing of your. introduction would be that. you held one of the most important jobs. in the world. >> That's a nice way of putting it. Very. flattering. Thank you. [laughter]. >> If there was, and if I have to put it. rather more dramatically is if James.

Bond was real, he would need your. signature to go get an approval for any. mission that he wants to do. >> True. >> Right. That's that's essentially what. you did. You were the legal director for. MI5. >> Yes. And six. >> And six both. >> Yeah. >> Incredible. Tell us about you and tell. me where were you born? How did you land. up in this situation? >> A good point. >> Um, well, I I was born in in Dorset in.

in uh sort of about 120 mi from London. I was born between two air raids. It was. just at the beginning of the war. Uh my. mother said the first one bought me on. and the second one finished her off. [laughter]. But but I think this gave me a sort of. um anti- athoritarian attitude quite. frankly. >> I think I resented being bombed. Um then when I was six, the end of the.

war, my father set up an airline, British South American Airways with a. with a chum of his and the RAF and he. went out to Brazil to set up the South. American end. And uh I visited them once. a year during my summer holidays and. then I stayed with uh either. grandparents or a wonderful godfather. who was a doctor um during the other. holidays. And that that was adventure. You're on. your own. You're independent. You had to.

be independent at boarding school when. you were six. So it was great. Um the. other benefit of all that was there was. very little parental control. cuz seeing them once a year for the. summer holidays was sort of spoiling. time rather than rather than discipline. time. Yeah. [clears throat]. >> So I think that sort of developed more. the sort of uh as you put it [snorts]. curiosity of what goes on in the world.

How can I survive in this world? Not. that one looked at it that way but it. was huge fun and and the world was sort. of really opened up by that experience. >> When you were born you were literally. born at the time when there was bombing. happening. >> Yes. >> Right. So you were born with knowing and. having a feeling that. I could be bombed. My city, my area, my. parents, my family, anything could be. bombed right now. Right. >> Yeah. So when you.

>> when you're born in a situation where. you've literally seen bombing left, right, center, >> do you start hating everybody. [clears throat] and you you you're born. with a lot of anger or do you start. fearing everybody? Because. >> yeah, very very interesting question. Um. after [clears throat] I was born, we. went up to live next door to a bomber. era drome and uh my grandfather or. stepgrandfather at that time was a.

priest. He was a vicar and quite. naturally there would be crashes at the. bombers squad and we'd go up and he. would visit the site to bless the site. Uh and I would go up there to pick up. remnants that I wanted to keep. Sort of. that sort of typical kid attitude. >> Yeah. Uh. but yes um. we cheered you you watched the bombs. going into the the aircraft and one. would cheer saying yes good you know go.

and drop bombs on these dreadful people. and one did hate and one's parents hated. uh quite naturally I mean my parents. have been two through the first world. war as well as the second world war um. so there was there was hatred. Uh, and it it wasn't until I think it's. pretty fair to say that I did my. traveling and I got to know other people. that one suddenly realized no, you can't.

hate the people. The people you have to. hate are the people who started it and. the people who went along with it. unnecessarily. They're the people who. are your target, not not the ordinary. Germans who the time we were there in. Berlin for what three and a half, four. years. Marvelous, absolutely brilliant. Made a lot of friends. Um, and also. curious enough with the Russians when we. were in Berlin. Made a lot of friends. with the Russians. You have to be very.

careful and suck with a long spoon. But. you know, they've got a great sense of. humor. They can be up and down. They can. be very depressed as well as very happy. you know about Russians. Um but they. they have a sense of fun and a sense of. belonging. They have a sense of Russia. uh a lot of them um lurking underneath. the the uh uh whatever their sort of. governmental situation is whether it's.

autocracy under Putin or or or. more or less autocracy under the. communist regime. But they they have a a basic love of. their country. >> So you but then when you started. traveling you started loving other human. beings. Before that you were hating. You. were like let's just go bomb these. people. They're dreadful. >> Yes. >> And did that. did that childhood conditioning or. probably let's say childhood trauma in. some sort.

did that linger over you in your later. career as well? No, we didn't believe in. trauma. Then [laughter]. [laughter]. my children are are are shocked at at um. my carry my wife's attitude. We were. told to scrub a scrub a floor. You know, if if if one got down about anything, go. and scrub a floor.

Uh, >> but [laughter] I mean the childhood. conditioning of that you've been hating. people. >> Yes. >> Did that somehow come back in your. British intelligence role as well where. you were like not at all. >> Other people are bad. I need to make. sure that we need to go and do. something. >> No, that's the last thing you want in. any intelligence agent. >> Absolutely. M. >> um. the. the conditioning there is uh the the two.

two things. First of all, there has to. be balance. >> One has to be able to balance the rights. of the individuals against the rights of. the state. Very [snorts] very important. and that's where the lawyers come in um. to help with that that balance. Uh. if you hate the people that you're um. investigating or or trying to get. information from, you're skewed. You don't have a balanced.

opinion of who they are. And if you're. trying to talk to someone and get them. on board, if you hate them, you're. you're at a complete disadvantage. >> Yeah. >> So, no, not at all. [snorts] And uh at. the top of the list of any intelligence. agent is integrity, which is very curious thought because. their whole essence is to go out and. pretend to be someone they're not.

>> His whole life live like a lie. >> Absolutely. And and to tell lies, to. draw people in. Very careful lies, Mark. you. Because if you're found out, you're. in trouble. >> Mhm. Um, so integrity, why? Why. integrity? If that's what your whole. essence is, not whole essence, but part. of the essence. Uh, if you send someone. out into the field to report, to do. something, and to come back and tell you. what they've done, if they don't tell.

you the absolute truth, and they don't. tell it to you in a way that's been. analyzed in a balanced way, you are in. trouble. >> Yeah. [laughter]. and so are the people you're. investigating or you're trying to bring. on board because you get a different. idea of them. A, that can lead you into. trouble because it can lead you into a. trap. B, importantly, if you're. investigating someone who's a terrorist. and you get the wrong person because of. that information, you are damaging. someone's life totally unnecessarily.

>> So, integrity is absolutely vital. But. how do you judge that this person is. is telling the truth or no? Because. that's the most important part. >> Yeah. >> The first thing is recruitment. The. second thing is training. >> So what do you when the top spy. intelligence agencies when they are. recruiting somebody what are they. looking for? [snorts]. >> Yeah very good point. Well obviously as. I said integrity first of all.

Um, [snorts]. I think they're looking for someone who. understands the goal to start with and. the goal is protecting the state. and that's protecting not only the. government but more importantly actually. the people. Um, so you have all these people in your. mind that you're out there to protect to. the best of your ability and that to. protect them from national security. threats and also economic well-being.

threats. So that's your goal which is quite clear. really. >> Yeah. >> Uh, and how do you do it? I think. determination very very important. >> But how do you judge all of these. things? Because it's so difficult. Anybody can pretend to be determined, patriotic, uh telling you lies that, hey, I I love the state. I want to do. this and that. And you can't judge it. >> You're talking to the best interrogators. in the world. And do you find people who.

are. probably vulnerable so that you can. actually. uh blackmail them into doing something. very strong because you know that they. can't go back and they have nothing. against like their back is against the. wall so they can't go back right. >> or do you find people who are really. self-sufficient protected brilliant. people have thousands of options in the. world and they can go do any job when. things get hard they can just quit it. who are the better ones, >> right? Um, blackmail's fatal.

Blackmailing a person. I mean, I s one. of the early days as I go back to my. days as an article cler. The people who. were being blackmailed, they were rats. They were vicious. They were trying to. fight back but couldn't. And so, we had. to fight back for them. If you blackmail. someone, you are blackmailing a rat with. a back to the wall. totally. unpredictable. So there's no way that. works.

>> So anyone who's in a situation where you. can blackmail them, they're anyway not. nice because they won't have integrity. Is that what you're saying? >> Oh, sure. Absolutely. I would do. anything to get out of being. blackmailed. And I mean a number of. black mailers have murdered people to. get out of blackmail. So, so when these recruiters they find. everything about you and they you're. exposed in front of them by the time. you're recruited. >> Yes. >> Right. What are like one or two red. flags which is like oh we found this.

we're not going to hire this person. >> Yeah. Well there are a number of them. and I don't think. I think it would be sort of giving away. too much to say what are the red flags. but there there are a number of red. flags that that the intelligence. agencies look for. >> Okay. And what are the green flags if. you can't give me the red flags? [laughter]. >> I'm happy with green flags. >> What do you look for? They're like, "Oh, this is golden. I want to hire this. person.". >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I'm.

talking I have to say I'm bast here. because having worked with the a I as a. lawyer, you're sort of of them but not. with them. If you're with them, you're. in trouble. you have to stand back. totally and look at your look at them as. clients dispassionately. Uh but I can say this now that I can say. yeah I was dispassionate and sometimes. you know there were decisions that.

didn't go go well um because they. weren't very popular because the. operations that they might have put to. me absolutely brilliant. But one would. have to say, well, hang on a minute. The. balance of rights isn't quite right. here. >> Not you can't do it, but let's try and. do it this way so that you can get. around the problem. Which I think I can. truthfully say we always managed to find. a way through. Largely because. the officers, I mean, are totally.

brilliant. They think laterally. They're. determined. They have a lot of patience. Some. operations can take years to come to. fruition. >> Yeah. >> Which again is different to the police. You have to sort of act immediately and. there's always a tension between the. police and the agencies. Uh and the police and the agencies do. have a fantastic sort of raor. [snorts] despite the fact the police.

have to act quick and we have to act. slow sometimes. Um, and balance. that that ability to be balanced, to. understand people, to understand how far. you can go, how far you can't. Those are. the really important qualities of an. intelligence agent. >> Interesting. >> Some people may say courage, but I. I I find courage something very. difficult to deal with because I. honestly don't think anybody finds out. whether they're courageous until they.

have to. >> Nice. Fair. >> Yeah, I think so. >> And you're you're only courageous. situationally. >> Yeah, that's absolutely right. Yeah. Uh. and and um you know, people have courage. for one thing and absolutely not for. another. >> Exactly. >> So there we go. Yes. So that's that is. those are the people I I I worked with. and I I I think it was the greatest. privilege I've ever had except marrying.

my wife. [laughter]. So you've worked with Americans, right? >> Yes. Yes. A lot. >> And compare American intelligence CIA. versus British intelligence MI6. What are the differences? What are the. powers? Who's more powerful? What are. the similarities? >> I think the way I'd like to approach it. is that the cooperation is massive. And despite the fact that that America.

seems to be pushing in one direction and. and we're slightly going in the other. direction, which incidentally. um I see a lot of reason for. Just going into square brackets for a. moment. I mean, for instance, I think. America's absolutely right. to demand that we pay more for NATO. I. mean, really and truly, the European. nations, including the UK, have got away. with murder for years. not paying. sufficient for NATO and America's right.

to demand that and we need to step up to. the plate to do that. Uh and if that. takes a bit of biting on the bullet then. we have to do it because at the moment. we need to we can't appear to be weak. Uh so. I think therefore that underlying that. the two agencies get on very very well. They speak the same language and I don't. mean literally. They both understand how.

they operate. Uh. the UK. the UK operates still under a a a. broader range of secrecy which I. disagree with. I mean for instance we. have oversight which is important. >> What is it? What do you mean? >> Oh right. Good point. >> Oversight. >> Yeah. Right. Um. when we set up the legislation for the. agencies, we we gave them the power to.

act criminally. provided they had approval of one sort. or another. >> Mhm. >> So in other words, you could commit a. crime by entering somebody's property, for instance, um by stealing their. documents or or that sort of thing. Um. and um one could get authorization for. that legally. Uh well. that's all very well and good. You had. to operate under the umbrella of. necessity. Whatever you did had to be.

necessary for the protection of the. state and it had to be proportional. So. what you were doing had to be. proportional to what you were. investigating. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. >> Well, that's great. So here you have a. sort of organization that has this. legislative base. It's got some rules. Who's going to oversee them? >> Whether they're following the rules or. no. >> Exactly. You've got to you cannot trust.

I mean from my perspective yes you can. because I've seen them operate and as if. I've told you how they operate. [snorts]. But. the general populace shouldn't be asked. to believe that they've let loose this. sort of cannon. It's not controlled. So there is over. >> scary. because that is scary. >> That is scary. >> Like if you give an intellig. intelligence officer power Yes. >> to walk into anyone's house, steal a.

document. >> Yes. >> And be not accountable for it just by. writing one line that hey, it was. necessary to do. I did it. >> Absolutely. Well, look at what Putin's. >> as a citizen. It makes me like fearful. about my own people. >> Yeah, sure. >> Uh the UK has a parliamentary oversight. body that um can interview the heads of. agencies and others um about what. they're doing and what they're up to.

But much more important, they also have. an investigative group that goes in and. um checks whether or not what the heads. of the agencies are telling this. oversight body are true. So you've got a. double layer. Then on top of that, if. the agencies want to um insert. surveillance equipment in a property for. instance, um they have to get permission.

from a judge or if they intercept. someone's telecommunications, they have. to get permission from a judicial. commission, which is a judge. Really, really important. And that was hard. fought because. when I was there, it had to be done by a. minister. My argument was, well, that's no good. because your minister is biased. Bound to be. >> Yeah. >> Um and therefore we are damaging.

ourselves by insisting on having a Well, we didn't, the government did by having. a minister do it because ministers like. to control. [snorts] So we got them out. of the picture. by going to a judge, which is really, really important and. pleased me enormously. [snorts]. So, that's that layer. Then there's a third. layer. If you're walking down the street. and you think you're being followed by. an intelligence agent of MI5 or MI6, if.

you think that, you can complain. to the investigations commissioner. for the MI5 and MI6 that you believe you. are being interfered with, that your. private life is being interfered with, it has to be investigated. Now that I think. that for me is sufficient. There's only. one area that I think needs more and.

that is I don't think the public see. enough of the heads of agencies. >> So that's then that's an oversight in. British intelligence. Yeah. That's not. there in American. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. And curiously enough, I. was going on to say what by by saying. they the British public don't see enough. of the the heads of agencies in America. They have open sessions with the. intelligence oversight committee. >> and there you the public is entitled to. see the heads of agencies answering.

awkward questions. But that is right. >> They should have to answer all. Right. now all of this in in UK happens. everything inside a bubble. >> Inside a bubble. >> It's not publicly portrayed. >> Well, it it's publicly portrayed in a in. a report. >> Okay. But it's not shown like the live. action is not shown. And in America it's. it's live recorded and shown. >> Absolutely. And I believe it should be. live recorded in the UK as well. You you. don't have to go into secret secrets,

but you do go into policy and areas that. can be explained. For instance, how do. we deal with terrorism? How is ISIS. dealt with? How do we deal with in. homegrown terrorists much more openly in. front of the um oversight parliamentary. oversight committee? >> That CIA does better. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Huh? Is it true. that an MI5.

investigating officer or an intelligence. officer cannot arrest a citizen? >> Yeah, that's up to the police. Quite. right, too. >> So, an intelligence officer, if they're. coming and actually scaring you to get. information out of you. We should not be scared because they. can't arrest. >> Can't arrest. >> But a CIA officer can or an FBI can as. well. >> FBI can. MI5 is equivalent to FBI, right? >> No. Well, well, yes, in the sense that it deals with.

homegrown. >> threats, >> but the FBI have the power of arrest. >> Um, we rely on on on the police to do. that. I think it's a very sort of. British thing. Uh, you know, the idea. that you have this secret agency. creeping around can arrest people. No, no, no. That that again is is a sort of. hold back. But why why can an. intelligence officer arrest you? >> They can't. >> But why can't they. >> why can't they. >> shouldn't they be allowed to do it if.

they have found someone very risky for. the state? >> No, absolutely not. I mean they can make. a sorry they can make a private arrest. which is a curious British anomaly. Um. as a private citizen they could arrest. someone. [snorts] Um but no if if there. is to be an arrest that's done by a. police officer then the matter can you. know proceed to the um uh Crown. Prosecution Service and go on and then.

the. whoever. is is in the British agencies who's been. behind the arrest can then go to court. and give evidence but they will have. their faces hidden by a screen and. >> but what's their actual power then? What. are the powers of yes an intelligence. officer? >> Yeah, good. The powers of an. intelligence officer are. that they can um follow people around. They can investigate their background. against their right to privacy.

>> Okay. >> Yeah. because every citizen has a right. to privacy in the United Kingdom and. therefore uh that is breached every time. >> an intelligence officer. >> an intelligence officer investigation. Yeah. [snorts]. >> So again those are the balances the. lawyers we were were dealing with um. every day. >> Uh people have the right to freedom of. association. Therefore, intelligence officers who. might be mingling among um crowds.

who who are on a on a. a mission to create trouble for instance. their right is being invaded. So. therefore there has to be you know a. balance there. Uh. they have the right not to have their. houses broken into. So the intelligence agencies have. permission to do that or get permission. to do that. They have their right for. their communications not to be.

intercepted. The intelligence agencies can do that. but they have to have permission. uh when the telemuniations agencies have. bulk. um communications that they sit on, the. intelligence agencies are entitled to go. into entitled to ask them to hold those. communications to go into and have a. look at. Again, they have to have. permission for that. It's a very very. controlled organization.

And this is where one has that. difference between Bon. who. can go out and do anything at a moment's. notice. [laughter]. He doesn't have to go to a judge to get. a warrant. Uh and he can shoot people at will, [laughter] you know. But a chief of. intelligence agency cannot just give. instructions to his or her best officer.

to do things like bond. No, >> no, >> no. Not even. >> they they can they can after um all. these hoops permissions have been. >> gone but can they not like you do it. I'll take care of the permissions go. ahead [laughter]. >> no. >> there will be some instances to do it. >> no because that's. >> and they would then come to you like as. a lawyer save me [laughter]. >> and as a lawyer I'd say good night go. save yourself. [snorts] uh and that's where oversight.

comes in this is why these layers of. oversight are so important. Um I mean for instance one of the. reasons I was asked to to to come in to. the agencies was was we had a um an. agent an officer who had approached the. Russians um to give them information. and um. the reason that he'd done that was. because he was alcoholic. and people had covered that up.

Massive mistake. because it led him to do something. really stupid, got him in prison. So, how to stop all. that? Well, he was alcoholic. Nobody done anything about it. So here. you have another layer where um in the. agencies now we have psychologists, we have counselors and people who have. problems can go and talk to them and.

those problems will be resolved as best. can be very very important. So again. your. um agent your your your officers have an. outlet for this sort of bubble if they. have it. H is you're talking about Bond. and what fascinates me in Bond everybody. calls the chief M. >> Yes. >> Right. The M. >> Yes. >> In MI6 and MI5 you call C. You don't.

call M. >> Yeah. >> Why do you call C? >> C because the first um and I can't. remember his name. The first chief of. MI6. >> Sir Mansville coming. >> Thank you very much. I was digging for. the day [laughter] which should have. come to me automatically. I will be talked down for that. [laughter]. [snorts]. >> Yes. Coming. So C. >> he signed himself C in green ink. >> Yeah. Yeah. Green ink. >> In green ink. Um M is is is um an.

imagination of uh Ian Fleming. Brilliant. Um because the director. general of of uh MI5 is known as DG. >> So but then DG and then you still sign C. because of the first guy. >> No, no, he doesn't. No, the director. general of of MI5. is just DG. They just signed DG. >> But why do you And who do you call.

chief? >> Nobody. >> Nobody. But C is just the first guy. >> Yes. >> And not anymore. You don't. >> Oh, yeah. It's still sign C. >> Oh, they're C. >> Oh, yeah. They're all C. [laughter]. >> But a brilliant one at the moment. First. woman. Wonderful. >> Very exciting. >> And why green ink? >> Oh, because he used green ink. >> Oh, so it's just a tradition. That's it. Yes. >> There's no like logic or reason around. >> No, no, no, no, no, not at all. I mean, it's a sort of strange anomaly. Rather.

like the anomaly that in order to join. the intelligence agencies when they were. first set up, you had to be able to caner on a horse. and write on a notepad in your pocket in. ink as you in pencil as you you rode by. enemy positions and note them down. >> [laughter]. >> You know, one of the things you did. which is very good. It was when a spy or. an intelligence officer collects lot of.

intelligence, lot of information against. terrorists again against people who are. harming the country. >> Right? >> In the beginning they were not allowed. to use that evidence. >> in the court to actually. make a ter get the terrorist punished. Right. Why. >> why can't an intelligence officer who's. putting his life on line. now can't even show that to a judge.

>> in [clears throat] order to get the. terrorists hanged. >> Yeah. Well, your amazement absolutely. matched mine when I first joined the. agency [laughter]. >> because I'd worked with the Americans. where evidence was being produced in. court all the time. So yes, that. staggered me when I came in. [snorts]. But it it was quite simple. It isn't a. criticism of the agencies, but they. operated against the Soviet Union and. against, you know, the communist um. regimes. Uh and they were so secret then.

that people really didn't talk about. them. >> Mhm. >> So if you tried to go to court to. produce evidence, the judge would look. around and say, "Well, you don't exist, so how can you produce evidence?". [laughter]. Sort of very British. So what we did was immediately to to um. work out how we could get evidence into. court. Well, first of all, you had to. make sure that the agencies existed so.

that when they came to court, they had a. legal basis that the judge could. recognize. So that was when we. legislated for them both five and six. First of all, five then six. and we had. to comply with the European um court of. and convention of and human rights. So. the legislation mirrored that. Okay. How. do we get this evidence into court? The. problem with secret intelligence or. information is is we call it secret. intelligence. [snorts]. >> Soon as you swap that word and call it.

information, >> it becomes more dealable with. Does that. make sense? >> Yes. >> So we called it information and we said. right how do we get information to the. court? [snorts]. First of all, any information that. benefited the defense had to be. disclosed to them. >> Now, you're dealing in secrets. So, the last thing you want to do is to. hand a secret to the defense because if. in fact they are the terrorist you. suspect they are, they will pass that on.

>> and other people people get killed, you. know. So, the first thing the lawyers. did was to get involved in the. operations right from the beginning. so that the operations were directed. so that the possibility of any. information having to be given to the. defense was discounted. Very interesting. Balance of risk all the time, which is. why I go back to it. and you go to court.

and the whole of all your files, all the. information you've got has to go to the. trial judge. and he appoints people to read through. it. [snorts] And if there's anything. that um has to go to the defense, you. have to make up your mind. Does it go or. it's so secret we can't? Therefore, the. whole prosecution's pulled. No, >> but how do you save names of the. intelligence officer? Because that would.

be a big mess, right? Like the. intelligence officer name it out there. in public and everybody knows who's the. one who collected this information. >> Yeah, absolutely. So within this um. regime that we created of putting the. information to the judge so he could see. see whether anything would be useful the. defense we also had permission that the. intelligence officers would go by an. initial. they would also be screened from the um.

defense so they hide behind screens. >> Mhm. >> Um so that's that's how that's done. So. they would have like fake passports and. fake names and then those names fake. names would be their initials. >> The fake name would be well wouldn't be. they just be given a random initial so. there's no linkage at all. >> It'll be random initial. >> random. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> But then how do you trust like it can be. anonymous and that a judge for example.

there's one. >> the judge will know who it's who it is. But for example, one of your. intelligence officers is working with a. terrorist. >> to find out something about the. terrorist, right? Gives you an. information that hey, this is what is. XYZ and this I think this guy is. >> someone we should put in prison. >> Yes. >> Right. >> Sure. the judge doesn't know and the. person who's collecting let's say you. are the officer who's collecting the. information from your field agents.

>> and now you're getting it. >> and you go to the judge and be like xyz. initial guy gave me this information and. judge would trust it. >> yes. >> because you could lie as well. >> oh yeah absolutely the judge the that. that that. information. um is then tested in court because that. information would be given. But the identity of the officer, the. personal identity of the officer would. be kept back. >> And how easy it is to make passports and.

give like multiple countries passport to. one person. >> Well, I mean, you know, if you go down. the pub, you can always get a passport, can't you? [laughter]. >> Really? Really? It's that easy? >> Well, I mean, there are all sorts of. people these days. I mean, you can get. them on the internet, can't you? I mean. >> I don't know that you can get [laughter]. you can get password information. I. shouldn't. >> you can get a fake password on an. internet. >> Mhm. >> On on some website we did.

>> deep net. Yeah. >> Did you ever had any fake password in. your life? >> Well, yes. Um I did. >> Nice. >> Sure. [laughter]. >> I can't tell. I can't ask which country. I wait. [gasps] So I have some pictures. of few [snorts] passports which have. been cancelled. Is it yours? >> Oh yes. >> So. >> am I am I having to um go on? >> This is another.

>> How did you get all these? That was very. good of you. >> And then this. >> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Absolutely. >> These are all your. >> Yeah, that's that's all me. >> Cancelled passports. Are they of the. same country or different countries? Why. why are they cancelled? They're all my. own personal passport. >> Okay. Why are they cancelled? Like. >> that one was my um pass to get across. the wall from West Germany to from West. Berlin to East Berlin. >> So you needed a pass?

>> Yes. >> This. >> absolutely. Yeah. >> And why why does this allow you to go. from east to west? Because other people. were not allowed to go there, right? >> No. because I was an occupied [laughter]. [snorts]. government which was an occupying force. Therefore, I was entitled to freedom of. movement throughout East and West. >> But were they occupying both east and. west? No. Right.

>> Yes. >> Okay. >> But it had been split into East Berlin. each at the end of the war Berlin was. split into four parts. um the Russian zone, the French zone, the American zone, and the British zone. And we were entitled to go around all of. them. And the Russians were entitled to. go into West Germany. We were entitled. to go into East Germany. And we had um. what were they called? Flag tours that. would show the flag, but of course could. do other things as well, provided they.

were in court. And then you had missions. into um West Germany and missions into. East Germany. The Russians had missions. as well and they would go around. >> and our missions would try and find out. what the Russians were up to and the. Russians would try and find out what we. were up to. So there was all sorts of. shenanigans going on in. >> because Russians occupied one and then. you occupied the other part. >> Right. [clears throat] So were you. allowed to go to Russian territory with. this pass? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Why then? But they would keep an eye on.

you. >> Oh, of course. Of. >> right. Yeah. But you were allowed in an. enemy territory. >> Oh yes, absolutely. How does that work? >> Um, >> why were you allowed in an enemy. territory knowing the enemy would know. that you are there for some cause or. purpose? Especially when you have a. British military pass. It's not even. like a normal peasant citizen pass. [laughter]. >> Well, it was one of those this is why. Berlin in a sense was like Alice in. Wonderland. >> Okay.

>> You know. [laughter]. >> Okay. one was in 1979 to 83. you know when the world was you sort of. split in two two halves. um and because of this anomaly that post. war Berlin was still an occupied city it. hadn't been split away. uh we were entitled under the old. post-war agreements and also later. agreements to go into each other's.

zones. Curious. >> four. Why were you allowed to go to each. other's? >> To show the flag in a sense, but also I. mean East Berlin had wonderful opera and. ballet and and and concerts. So one. would go over there as well. >> and just a sign of peace. It it it was a. sign of. a mutual understanding that Berlin.

was at the center of the Cold War. >> And. in order to for us to be able to. understand what was going on and for the. Russians to understand what was going. on, this this sort of continued. It created a lot of tension because the. Russians would control the for instance. the air corridors and the road corridors. because you could you had to go across. East Germany to get to Berlin from West. Berlin and the Russians could quite.

easily cause chaos to stop those those. corridors being used. Um, they would. stop West Germans visiting their. families in East Germany and nobody from. [clears throat] East Germany could come. over to West Germany or East Berlin to. West Berlin. Um, >> right. >> Yeah. I mean, they were still being shot. going over the wall when we were there. and that was, you know, early 80s. I. mean, it was, you know, senseless the. whole thing, which was why eventually, of course, it collapsed.

>> Yeah. So because you were talking about. passports, >> right? This I have like bunch of these. >> Yes. >> And these are different passports. You. can't choose which one you had. Right. But can you choose top three and we make. a guess? [laughter]. So you had a this is British. These are. just like US, India, Saudi Arabia,

Singapore, Japan, Italy, South Africa, Pakistan, Republic of Korea, France, Dutch. >> Brilliant. >> China. >> I love it. So which just choose. Okay. Here's the thing we should do for you.

>> This is what you want to do. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Which were the. which is the easiest passport to get out. of all of them. >> No, I'll tell you something. >> I won't tell you. [laughter]. >> Okay. Choose at least top three. Which. one? No. >> No. That's up to you. >> Come on. Out of the all of these you can. choose. It's not a not a game I'll play. >> But we can choose at least top three or. five. So that. >> you see, you would be a very very good. intelligence agent. Here you are being.

very persuasive, being very flattering. My job is to resist that. >> But out of all of these, did you have. any passport ever in your life? >> I mean, it's obvious I've had a British. passport because, you know, when I was. in the foreign office, I had a British. diplomatic passport. >> Okay. uh coming because we were talking. about this. passports and all around the world. >> One of the fascinating things that you.

have done in your life apart from being. the legal. director for MI5 and MI6, right? is you. in some sort set up a way for people to. offshore their money in some island, right? You you did with Turks. Which island did you actually set up the. legislation for? >> Turks and Kos. >> Turks and Kos. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> So you how did you set up things to.

actually start getting money? But then. people started using it for offshoring. money tax made it a tax haven. >> and a lot of money laundering was. happening through that. >> Yes. >> You set up the foundation for it. >> Yes. >> How and why? >> Set up right. The British dependent. territories when I went out to Turks in. Caos, it was a salt raking community and. a fishing community. It relied on raking. salt.

>> and selling it and purely fishing and. that was it. uh [clears throat] it was costing the. British government a lot of money quite. rightly um because you know once you. have your territories if they don't want. to leave you then you need to look after. them you have to it's your it's your. duty. >> um and therefore we had to find ways of. getting in income at that time. offshoring was beginning to gain ground.

and quite clearly tax and kos had no. taxes they had uh land tax and VA value. added tax on on goods and services but. no income tax or corporation tax. So the. idea then was to allow um people to come. into the island to set up corporations. and take advantage of that tax tax. regime which is what we did. >> [snorts]. >> So you literally drafted laws for people.

to do money laundering. >> Yes. Well, that in it in it put that. way, it's absolutely right. At the time. we did it, of course, money laundering. was not. it wasn't really sort of the the the. game of the day. >> Okay. it was taken advantage of because. of these tax regimes were set up. Quite. right too. [snorts] And you've hit a. very interesting point because a number.

of years later after I'd been to uh um. Berlin and I'd come back, the legal. adviser of the foreign office and he was. a lovely guy said, "David, I want to see. you." So I marched in. He said, "David,". he said, 'I understand you set up the um. tax laws for the Turks and Caos Islands. I said, 'Absolutely. He said, 'Well, we've got an absolutely major problem. with um drugs running through and money.

laundering. He said, "You set it up, you. go and sort it out." [laughter]. >> When did this happen? >> I can't remember the date. Uh but the. result of that was we set up a a sting. operation with the FBI. >> Wait, wait, wait. We we do this story. slowly. This is this is an interesting. story. >> It's like you you were. So let me put this in perspective.

[clears throat]. >> A British Caribbean island. >> Yes. >> Where you set up laws. >> Yes. No income tax, no property tax, attracting companies to start operations. and park their money there so they could. just set up offshore tax havens, right? >> Yes. Absolutely. They would organize. their tax regimes. Yes. Perfect. >> And then that small island which is. couple of hours away from Miami. >> had hidden air strips. >> Yes. >> Had companies which were only existing.

on paper. >> Yes. >> And was used to just rotate money. >> Yes. And it became one of the biggest. cocaine. uh money for Miami cartels. >> Yes. >> Right. That's what happened. >> Yeah. >> It wasn't the biggest but it was quite. big. >> Okay. So now explain me as sure. >> At what point did you realize that your. own creation is now being used for. [laughter]. >> Well, it was at that point when I was. all in by. >> all in by the League of.

>> Yeah. You created a perfect washing. machine. >> I did. Yes, absolutely. I'm not sure. whether I'm proud of that or not. [laughter]. >> I prefer the space station background. [laughter]. >> Okay. >> Yeah. So, now explain me. So, now that. you know that this is you've realized at. what point did you realize by the way. >> that this is a moneyaundering haven now? >> Um I hadn't been concentrating a lot. because I'd been in Berlin and I was. doing defense work. So it hadn't come.

across my my vision really. Uh but as. soon as um the legal advisor said you. this is a problem. I mean you know it. was amusing in the sense well you set it. up that you could sort it out but as. soon as it became a problem and it. needed to be dealt with right away. So. that was it. I went out there [snorts]. and it it it turned out that drugs were. being. >> fed through. uh and it was being fed through under.

the opaces of ministers. >> from Britain. Yeah. >> No Turks and Caos Islands ministers. >> which you know [clears throat] I mean. that was outrageous. question. Could we prosecute the. ministers in the islands? >> No way. >> Thank you. [laughter]. >> There's no way. Yeah. >> So, um I went to the FBI and we set up a. sting operation against. >> How did you find out that they were.

chief ministers? >> We had information. >> Okay. Through some intelligence you. found out and there was proof that these. chief minister and other two ministers. like total three ministers with actually. >> there was quite solid information. solid. enough so that you can set up a sting. operation. You cannot set up a sting. operation unless you've got sufficient. intelligence that something naughty is. going on. Then you can set up a sting. So we set up a sting, send in a an FBI.

agent who'd come out of Colombia. actually, and he um made contact. pretending to be running drugs. and uh met the minister at his house. Now, that actually is quite an amusing. story because it was the first time I'd. been directly involved in an operation. >> Nice. >> Because I wanted to get the evidence for. the Brits as well as the [snorts]. Americans. >> So, we um set up the operation and we we.

set him up with a an onboard mic. Uh and. we were listening to to him as he went. in. So he goes into the minister's house. which was a huge palatial place gold. bathroom taps and you know this is one. of the reasons that people wondered on. his salary how he could afford it. [snorts] and it overlooked the sea. beautiful terrace and right next door on. the beach. It was a wonderful place. So um he meets the minister and the.

minister says well let's go out on the. terrace and you know have a drink and. talk about this. So we go out on the. terrace and then we have. And it was a northwesterly wind and the. sea had got up. So we could hardly hear the conversation. for the waves crashing on the beach. [laughter]. So that was the end of that particular. one. >> It was. So we set him up again and we we. took them out in Miami.

>> um discussing with him, you know, the. the the drug deal and they were. sentenced to a number of years in. prison. that dealt with the drug side to. a large extent. >> No, [snorts] wait. So that minister was. now called to Miami to do a drug deal. >> Yes. >> And then they were doing the sting. operation. >> We we we transferred the sting to Miami. so that we could take take them down. I. mean the idea was to take them down on. American soil. >> so that we could um.

>> and like immediately the moment you. heard him confessing or maybe dealing. like immediately police went in and. confused. >> Yes. >> everything and put him in prison. >> It was a perfect sting. You catch you. catch the um suspected criminal or. terrorist inflante as they're doing the. deed. >> Got it. Red-handed. >> Yeah. Red-handed. Yeah. And that was my first operation in the. UK actually when we took out a a Czech. Czechlovac spy and we managed to catch.

him actually in the process of. transmitting to his headquarters which. was another sting operation which shows. how brilliant the intelligence officers. are you know anyway coming back. >> So that that was the drug issue. >> Um and that sort of quietened everything. down a bit. it it it was not welcomed in. the islands obviously you know I mean a. they couldn't believe that their. minister was actually directly. [clears throat] involved in drug.

trafficking and and second you know they. sort of seen as a direct interference. too you know why didn't they sort them. out anyway that was that so the next. thing we had to do was money laundering. now the Americans. were quite rightly angry that the. islands were being used and actually we. transferred this to Kayman which was a. bigger offshore center. We transferred. the whole issue to Kayman um where it.

was quite clear that a lot of money was. being laundered out of Miami and and the. United States through. >> Kayman. >> So um. >> and why was it easy? Because u an. American business owner or American drug. dealer. >> Yeah. can come to Britain do all this. money laundering go back and both the. countries can't catch him. >> because like what was that because. >> or a British criminal can launder money. in America or through came in.

>> yes right. >> and no country can like the. >> British criminal is free because US. can't interfere in British matters. Britain can't interfere in US matters. and then nothing will happen to the. criminal right. >> the problem was because the um bank. accounts in Kayman were secret. The information of the money going in. and out of the bank accounts wasn't. available. >> Okay, >> that was the problem.

[snorts]. >> Simple. >> Yeah. >> Answer simple. Open up the bank account. [laughter]. How? With great difficulty. So. what was happening was um I mean money. laundering quite simply is certainly. with drugs you've got mountains of cash. >> you've got to get rid of it how. you do it various ways smurfing you can.

get kids old age pensioners people. distributing into their own bank. accounts so that the money goes into a. bank account and then gets joined. together in another bank account comes. out and is washed, comes out clean. Or. um property deal, you pay cash for. property, boats, for instance, large. boats, cash for boats, you know, you're. converting it to cash, nice boat, sell. it, clean cash, that sort of thing going. on [snorts].

um in in Cayman at that time because the. bank accounts were all secret. Money was. just going into them in suitcases, going into the bank and then coming out. clean. I mean, you know, the Americans were. angry and quite right, too. >> Uh, so I think at that time a trillion. dollars a year were washing around, you. know, not necessarily Kayman, but I mean. it's a load of money. It's even more. now. >> Money laundering [snorts] all around the. world. >> Yeah. So, uh,

we said to the Americans, look, what we. will do is we'll enter into a mutual. legal assistance agreement. a bit bit. technical, >> but if you give us sufficient. information about the fact that you. believe X is money laundering, we will. open up that bank account for you. Now, as you can imagine, that took a lot. of persuading for the Caymanians. >> [snorts]. >> The only reason we could actually push. it through was that ultimately the UK is.

responsible for the financial well-being. of their overseas territories. >> So we were able to say to them, we are. responsible eventually and we are not. going to have this going on. It's. outrageous. We set this up. >> So you pressured them into giving. >> Yes, we did. Yeah. >> Because Kayman Kayman would never give. you this. That was their only source of. actually getting money. >> Well, not only because actually. >> a large source of getting money.

>> It was a large source. We did it two ways. Interestingly. enough, um. the the Americans had had um seized um a. lawyer who was in in in in the United. States and alleged he was money. laundering. Well, we we helped defend. that case because. technically America was exercising what. we call extr territorial jurisdiction. In other words, they were using their. jurisdiction against one of our.

nationals and we don't allow that. [snorts]. So, we defended that case um by going to. the Supreme Court or by going to the um. court and putting in a brief. Uh so we did that very vigorously. But on the other side we were. negotiating with the Americans to set up. this agreement whereby they could access. the information. [clears throat].

Uh and. the. Cmanians didn't want it. But what we. said to them was well what do you want. as a as a country for your people? Do. you want to be proud of your country or. do you want to go on being labeled. dirty? Quite simple. [snorts]. We can help you by pointing to the fact. that if you're clean, you will attract. blue chip companies. They don't want to.

be involved with a c with a country that. has dirty money. They want to be able to do their their. business in a normal, natural, acceptable way, sorting out their tax. affairs legitimately. Blue chips, good people. If you do that, your country will. becomes clean. Simple. You've got two choices. Well, they were very sensible people. I mean, bright ministers. And I mean, in a.

sense, they didn't want all this dirty. money either. I mean it it was all going. on sub rosa. >> so we were able to sort that out so we. had the agreement. Sorry I've sort of. rambled on a bit but it was very. interesting. >> Yeah. >> Uh and Kayman today is perfectly. legitimate you know and I mean there are. people who will try and money launder. there but it's much much more difficult. [snorts]. >> Then. weren't like cayman ministers being. bribed by all of these people? >> No. >> Oh. >> no. Because one would assume that all.

these small islands, >> their ministers get bribed and that's. how they allow all of these secrecy and. all of these things. >> No. No. There was never any evidence of. that at all. No. The only one was that I. came across was Turks where where the. ministers went bent and it was. unfortunate in the silly of them, you. know. But temptation, I mean, drugs. money is so huge. >> Yeah. How do you know about this? like. how Miami, this small beautiful place, >> ended up becoming a drug hub.

>> I know. Why is London a drug hub? >> Is it a drug hub? I don't know. >> Well, I wouldn't call it a drug hub, but. I mean, >> it's big here. >> The the the amount of cocaine that's. consumed in London is is is outrageous. >> You've said. >> it's consumed by, you know, people in. good jobs. They think it's a fun thing to do like. alcohol, you know. They don't realize. what they're doing. That's the problem.

>> What? >> Well, if you go back to the origins of. cocaine, where does it come from? >> You don't know. >> Right. Comes from Colombia, you know, places like that, South America, if you. like, where it's grown. Farmers grow it. It's then harvested. It's then um uh. made into cocaine. Within that situation, you've got.

farmers who are being oppressed by the. drugs lords who control all this. You've. got intergang warfare where people are. being killed. You've [clears throat] got. people who try and game their own system. and they'll get killed. I mean, we've. seen the wars that go on there. It's it. is lethal. Murder is perfectly acceptable to these. people. They have no safety net at all. [snorts] Then the drugs get transferred.

over to the UK, you know, via whatever. route you like and reaches. the people, for instance, in London who. are taking it at their parties. They'll pay cash. because they don't want to give a card. because that's traceable. Bitcoin possibly, possibly not, but. certainly cash. So they, you know, phone up their dealer, come. over, you know, comes by bike or.

whatever, [snorts] delivered, party, fun, fun. Feel awful the next. morning, but tough. You know. what they're not realizing. is that they don't bother to trace back. where it came from and what's going on, where it starts, if you like. They're in a direct chain. from murder, mayhem, torture, rape, all. the rest of it. They're part of it.

and they don't want to know it. And as a lawyer, you know, who's dealt with terrorists. and all the rest of it, I find it pretty. unimaginable, quite frankly, that people. will do it. [snorts] Do you you're. saying that everyone who's buying. cocaine. is. is not realizing that they are directly. funding murders, rapes, extortion, and. terrorism in the world. >> Absolutely. But it's clear, isn't it?

The link is there. I mean, you're buying. stuff that's come from, you know, that. farmers who are being persecuted right. from the start. [snorts]. So, I get quite. >> No, it's true. It's it's it's right to. get. >> Well, I'm not angry about it. I think. what I'm concerned because the people. who are doing it are perfectly capable. of understanding. I mean, there are lots. of people who don't understand and and. and I I accept that addicts have a.

problem. Yeah. >> Um, and they don't necessarily are able. to to control that problem. And that's. one thing. But people who do it for. partying, who are perfectly capable of. understanding exactly what they're. doing, don't want to know. And they are. part of it. And they should be told. >> True. You've you've also said somewhere. that. organized crime is more dangerous than. terrorism. >> Why? [clears throat]. >> It's insidious. You can see terrorism.

You can see the bombings and killings. Um, you can see the organizations. because they proclaim it. They want to. It's open. [snorts]. Organized crime isn't. It's insidious. You know, it goes into money laundering, goes into cafes and pubs and, you know, lundererettes and all sorts of. playerets. [laughter]. But um and um it it can entrap people.

and the problem is the amount of money. that can be made is huge. I mean old age. pensioners get drawn into taking cash to. put into bank accounts, you know, to get. a bit of extra cash. Um really they should know better. [laughter]. students [snorts]. being drawn into county lines, drugs, drugs lines, you know, bit of extra. cash. Um, and oh, it's all right, you.

know, it's only just a bit of extra. cash. Don't worry, just take this. parcel. >> See, so the problem is that so many people. are indirectly just getting lured into. this. Yes. That's why it's more fatal. than terrorism because it's terrorism is. black and white. >> Yes. And I think I mean in a sense you. you feel sorry for a lot of people. because they're into it before they. realize you know you can you take this. parcel for me and the next thing well.

you took the parcel. Did you know what. it was? Of course you knew what it was. you know you you you want me to go to. the police and tell them that you've. done this. >> And then they're in the game. >> And [clears throat] then they're in the. game. And um as I say, blackmail. doesn't work, but it can work for for a. young kid, >> young vulnerable, not to lose a bright. future guy. >> They could be in trouble. >> Yeah. And you they don't realize it.

>> But they need to be educated. And. frankly, I don't think there's enough. education about it at all. You know, they're not told. All we ever hear about. is the odd prosecution, which is. extremely difficult to get. But um. you go on to social media, how much is. there on that that that warns kids about. what happens? You know, not not much if. at all. >> But when you say organized crime, do you. mean organized crime only drugs?

>> No. No. Um. well, I mean you've got organized crime. for immigration, um prostitution, fraud. Which one's the biggest? >> I think fraud. >> agencies are just tired of trying to. >> What do you think is the biggest problem. for all the agencies in the world today? Like no intellig intelligence agencies, no spy or CIA or FBI or MI5, MI6, RAW,

nobody's been able to catch and it's. it's a pain problem of the world right. now. What are these two or three things? fraud is extremely difficult. trying to trace back where it comes. because it comes out of the dark web. Um, arms trafficking. again the dark web. I mean, there have. been some extremely clever and good. operations against the dark web. I mean,

nothing's immutable. Um, but it takes. time and it takes money. And I think the. biggest problem if you want an answer to. this for the intelligence agencies is. budget. which is a curious thing to say but. every operation that's mounted costs. money. and first of all you have to identify a. target. [snorts] then you have to make sure that. that target is a proper target.

and the difficulty there is you can get. information about someone or some. organization and you can start an. investigation. Then it goes off the boil. and something else comes up. Big. decision. What do you do? Do you keep on. with the first one or do you put your. money to the second one? >> Big one. >> There's only so much money left. You can. drop the first one and then suddenly. it'll pop up and bingo.

So every operation costs money. I mean, if you if you put on a surveillance. team, you can imagine the amount of. money it costs. Huge. >> Um, planning an operation to to uh intercept. communications, planning an operation to. meet an agent, very delicate. Um, and. you know, the cost, I mean, a lot of. agents want payment.

The the uh and by agent I mean. informant. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um there are very very few I mean for. instance there are very few what I might. call um politically motivated. um informants. Giovski of course was the. most famous and. fantastic man but very few of them. So. everything costs money and agencies. don't have the money. Even.

>> even the United States, >> even the USA, they don't have enough. money. >> No, nobody has enough money. Not when. you're looking at look at the number of. supposed terrorists there are just in. the UK, for instance. They've all got to. be watched. And is it [snorts] is it the lack of. will by. the politicians or the government or is. it because that. >> it's it's not their priority like it's.

it's it's like leave it's fine like. right now it's not big enough. >> everything is a priority I agree. certainly terrorisms is a top priority. there no doubt about that organization. drugs prostitution terrorism. internal terror, bombings, immigration, >> murders, extortion, all of this should. be a priority, right? >> Yes, I agree. I mean, I put it all down. I I don't distinguish between terrorism. and the rest of it. I call it all crime.

>> Yeah. >> You know, I mean, I I. >> Yeah. So, let's just let's just call it. crime. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. Um I think calling terrorism. terrorism merely clamorizes it. Um and. >> they're all heinous crimes. That's it. >> They're all heinous crimes. >> Yeah. And I think there should be a a. sort of um. leveling out. It should be all. important. But I I I think it's pretty. fair to say that it isn't. >> And why isn't why do you think do do you.

think people at the top are getting paid. or some people? >> No. No. No. >> Not I'm not talking about the top. person. I'm not talking about prime. minister and presidents of the world. I'm talking about someone in the system. who's probably at the top somewhere. >> is getting paid. >> or like bunch of people are getting paid. to make sure that this never becomes. priority. >> Too many datas maybe. >> Yeah. >> Like you don't know. >> One of the things one learns in the. agencies funnily enough is conspiracy. theories don't fly. [laughter].

>> Bond always has someone at the top who. it doesn't fly. you have organized. criminals at the top. But [snorts]. uh on the whole um no I I I I I don't. believe that. Um I I believe that. organized crime as we talk about is. isn't seen and it's therefore easier to. ignore than terrorism which is and. therefore you must throw your money at.

it. >> True. And it's also because. a normal citizen on road will fear. a gun attack or a bomb attack way way. more than someone selling drugs in a. club. >> I agree with you entirely. >> Even though maybe drug will benefit the. crime industry more, >> they would fear the bomb more. Yeah. >> And that's why for a politician or for a. government tackling the bomb outright.

becomes big bigger priority than this. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So it's it's about optics then. >> It is optics. and it's you know I mean we've got the. National Crime is fantastic. I mean. they've done some fantastic work. >> but they're underfunded. >> Yeah. which. you know from my point of view sitting. watching it and I think organized crime. is far more dangerous because it is. eating away all the time.

>> and how big how. how big do you think it is till it. becomes really serious for people to. take care of it. >> I think it's big enough now. >> but clearly someone's not taking it. seriously Yeah. [snorts]. >> Is it do you think it's because if. citizens as well, this will never end? >> Well, >> because a lot of people want it. If. there if people are buying drugs, it. means they enjoy it. They want it.

They're ignoring it on a day-to-day. basis. So, >> yes, >> they don't even want it to be tackled. >> No, I think I think that's absolutely. right. And going back to the people I. talk about who are taking drugs, it's. totally irresponsible. They don't care. >> They don't care. So they probably this. problem will always exist. >> until they're made to care. [laughter]. >> But the problem is I mean dealing with. drugs as you say is is is extremely. difficult. And and if you I mean if you. were to prosecute everybody who took. drugs, your courts would be clogged up.

And again, this is something that they. look at, well, it doesn't matter. You. know, I can take it. It doesn't matter. if I'm taking a class A drug. Nobody's. going to do anything about it. >> Yeah. You know, I've when I read history and I read so. many events like this and try to compare. what was happening 100 years ago, 200. years ago, what's what happened 50 years. ago and what's happening now, >> right? Three emotions. are always there primarily in human. beings that is causing all the fatal.

right that is one is escapism. in every year every decade every month. there's a bunch of people who feel they. need to escape their reality. >> in some sort of way. >> right so that's why. >> drugs keeps becoming a thing right. >> second is. >> uh The sense of belongingness and. showing someone else is inferior. So. feeling superiority. It's an emotion.

which across the entire evolution people. have done it right. Whether you were. early men versus today you always need. your pat need to be sense of like you. need to have sense of superiority. >> And then third is hatred. >> Mhm. These three things are like just. they keep. >> you pick up a country, you pick up era, you pick human civilization, age, you. pick up. >> anything and you see this these three. things again and again and that's and.

these are the three things which are. organized crime essentially. Escapism is. drugs. >> Mhm. >> Uh sense of belongingness that I'm. better than you is wars in the. countries. Yes. >> And then hatred is a weapon industry. >> Yeah. It's very rude. Yes. And that's. true. >> I agree with that entirely. >> So, we won't be able to tackle these. three things because it's essentially. you and me. >> Well, AI will, [laughter]. >> but it's coded by someone like someone.

who's listening right now, >> some someone who's totally. dispassionate. >> Yeah. I really hope so. I really hope. so. [snorts]. >> Yes. It it it's foolishness really. Um. but then everybody is vulnerable you. know quite simple. >> true you know I was so I I try to read a. lot of global news. >> Yes. >> Okay. And. >> I was reading a lot of these American. news media houses and the articles they.

are writing on Britain these days. >> from an average American's perspective. right or from an average Indian's. perspective or a global citizen. perspective right the image of Britain. is completely different. >> right it's and it's three different. >> Britain that I read about like when I. read newspapers in London it's different. versus when I read in New York it's. different. >> Sure. Sure. Sure. >> So I [snorts] I'll talk about America. because that was the most fascinating. thing that I read.

>> So as per American media, it feels like. Britain is just it's ending. It's it's. it's about to die right now. [laughter]. Absolutely. >> Exactly. The economy is collapsing. Nobody cares. They now there's joke that. British prime ministers change faster. than the weather. >> Yes. Yes. I know. Bit like Italy in the. old days. [laughter]. >> Like in in 10 years, seven prime.

ministers have changed. What is. happening? Why this keeps happening? >> I think we. I think where we're at is is. we protect boundaries. I mean, I mean, internationally, we all protect. boundary. We've lived with boundaries. for centuries and centuries. They don't exist anymore. The internet. has white boundaries out. >> I mean, really,

>> are we still talking about boundaries? When international commerce flies. backwards and forwards, finance. backwards and forwards. >> Yeah. >> Kids talk to each other. backwards and forwards across. boundaries. And yet we're still trying. to protect them. The other problem we've got is that. because of the internet, everything's. moving 10 times faster than it did. And. British democracy, as I've said, tends.

to muddle through. we sort of see something and say, "Oh, well, we'll have a few committees about. this and see how we managed to get our. way through it." And it's not happening. fast enough. So, hence seven prime. ministers because everybody got gets fed. up with the prime minister who's not. moving fast enough to catch up with the. problems that are pursing him. Um so underneath all that I think also.

is the fact that you have autonomy where. the state owns the people and you have. democracy where the people own the. state. Well in a very very fast. developing world which seems to be the. easier solution? It's got to be autonomy. because you have one man, one vote, one. woman, no votes, no votes for men or. women. You just control everything. You. control all the people who can do what.

you want. Therefore, you can react to. speed. Different events happening. Untrue for democracy. Doesn't work that. way as we've already said. So, how to sort of look at all that? Well, one could say, well, the democracy is. dead, which as you say, a lot of the. American articles talk about British. democracy is dead. I don't believe that. I think where we have to focus ourselves.

is on. understanding how how to react to speed. and the way to react to speed is to. understand risk and the balance of risk. Oh, [laughter]. if you talk to a civil servant, particularly in the UK, risk is a gamble. >> Yeah. >> It's synonymous.

>> They don't want to take risk at all. >> because they see it as a gamble. They. see it as putting money on a horse. Actually, I've got one running. I've got. a hoof of a horse running today. [laughter]. >> Okay. So, I've got to gamble on. >> Okay. [laughter]. >> And I know perfectly well it's got. nothing to do with risk. >> Yeah. >> Gambling can be analyzed, but it it it's.

so so like horse racing. It it it. doesn't enter into the picture of a. democracy fighting for its life against. autocracy. Risk does and risk can be analyzed. And. in my past job, risk was analyzed every. single minute of every single day. >> What are the pros, what are the cons, but at speed. So the mind gets used to.

picking out the salient points of either. pro and con and then making a decision. based on risk. >> Now that immediately speeds up your. response. It speeds up the democratic. response. Now I don't know whether you. think that is absolutely out of court or. not but I think we need to understand. that risk is good. >> So Europe and UK they're not risktakers.

>> No. >> that's the biggest problem. >> Biggest problem. >> Okay. So structurally if you have to. explain me as if I'm a 5-year-old and. I'm listening to this for the first. time. Okay. Why America won over. Britain? >> Why America. >> won? Like you guys British Empire. literally gave democracy to the world, right? Taught democracy to the world. >> We did like in some sort. >> after the Greeks [laughter].

>> but in some sort, right? You. >> you established that in India after. doing horrific things. >> Yes, absolutely. But then you did it. with America. You did it everywhere. >> Doing horrific things. >> Exactly. Everywhere. Right. But. [clears throat]. looks like every country at least the. larger ones they are doing better in. economy in democracy and they're winning. over Britain. >> And specifically like British Empire was. the biggest and now America is the. biggest. What happened?

>> Why structurally when both are. democracies? >> Yeah. They both fundamentally believe in. the same freedom. >> and yet one country keeps winning again. and again and again versus another which. stood on the same principles is not. winning. >> You drive in London and you've got all. the lime bikes. >> racing around at high speed. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> You take an old boy on a lime bike. He.

is not racing around at high speed. >> Yeah. You take a young lad and he will. be racing around at high speed. That is the sort of simile that I see. [laughter]. >> Nice. >> British democracy is old and hory and. isn't changing its ways. You guys, your. democracies, the young democracies. understand risk. And I go back to that. and I'm making a big thing about it. But.

you do. I mean, I I was talking about your your. logo, you know, don't interrupt me. I'm. in the middle of winning. Well, you win. by taking risks. Look at Wimbledon. >> The winners at Wimbledon are the ones. who actually go that little bit extra. and take that risky shot and it comes. off because they they have calculated. that there's a better possibility of. making it than not. >> Yeah. So it's just you would say it the.

problem is only risk or are there other. fundamental problems as well? >> Yes, I think I I I think yes of course. there are there are fundamental. problems. Um. I think as far as far as the UK is. concerned we do put a lot of weight on. on looking after the disadvantaged. Now, that's not to say that others. don't, but if you if you compare the.

health system to with America to ours, much more self- insurance in the United. States, not in the UK. Um, a lot of. people pull out of self- insurance in. the UK because there are no tax. advantages and it's very, very. expensive. So, therefore, they fall back. on the NHS, which is, you know, overwhelmed. Um, the concept of the NHS when Beavenon. first produced it, uh, and I know this.

because I've just been doing GCH, sorry, um, GSC history with my granddaughter, helping her revise and she had to do the. Bevon, [snorts] the beverage report, the. Beavenon [laughter]. legislation from the NHS. >> [snorts]. >> The concept then of what the NHS was. going to be was to help the really. disadvantaged, the people who really couldn't pay. >> Yeah. >> It it's grown. >> Yeah. >> To the fact that people like myself who.

can well afford to pay don't have to. pay. >> And that's that's nuts. M so it's. >> so therefore you get an imbalance in in. in the the amount of money you can spend. on other things than pouring it into the. NHS where you know that if that sacred. cow was part privatized a lot of people. would be able to pay for it. without any hardship. I don't know if. that's um.

>> I was reading about this the fundamental. difference between. what happened. um between America and United Kingdom. Right. >> So one of the big things that I learned. was in the weapon industry, right? >> Yes. >> So what happened. >> earlier British Empire was the best in. the weapon in the world. They had the. best advant like most advanced. technology of weapons, right?

And at the time of Franklin Roosevelt, at that time Roosevelt decided that hey, you know what? Whoever will have better. technologies will actually. be the ruler of the world. Whoever will. have more weapons will actually win the. wars. Right? So the way weapon. technology and innovation used to work. in Britain was everything was. centralized from this one department and. prime minister's office would give. >> uh certain instructions and certain.

budget allocated to do the innovation. and do things right so everything was. centralized. >> ruse what he did he called like all the. universities started funding them from. the state and every university will have. their own class in innovation and. whoever innovated more he would fund. them. So he decentralized the the pace. of innovation. >> and that's how they started getting. weapons and they started getting decades. ahead of Britain. >> and that became the fundamental fabric. of America that innovation will be. decentralized.

>> and Britain always kept on just. centralizing innovation and relying on. the state. >> Do you think that fabric still is true. that people are waiting for the. government to do something here versus. in America everybody's like. I just want to do this. >> Yes. Yeah. I agree. I agree with that. entirely. And and. what you were saying is very interesting. because Ukraine is doing the same thing. now. They've decentralized. their weapons production and now they.

have. dozens of firms producing their drones. and all the rest of it. Absolutely. fantastic. Uh yes, we do. We're far too. centralized in in in this country. We we. we've far too dependent on on a civil. service who who seek to protect rather. than to innovate. >> I don't I don't. >> Yeah. >> I mean, I've been there and done it. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> And and innovation in in in in the civil. service is uh frowned on. You know, you.

might get a a minus mark if you want to. actually go ahead and innovate. So um in. order to progress you have to have no. minus marks. Uh so yes I agree with you. >> So that's and even today that's there. >> that that's that's certainly right. I. mean, okay, fine. We've got um um. decentralization in the sense that that. uh uh the private sector companies bid.

for for contracts, but it's still. centralized within the Ministry of. Defense. >> And [snorts] again, it's run by. non-risktakers, >> bureaucrats. H not that I have got. anything against bureaucrats but I do. have I I think my my my thought is that. the recruitment process disregards.

the risk takingaking and I know I keep. going back to this but I think it's. important they want a safe pair of hands. and a safe pair of hands is not the. right pair of hands for today's fast. speedy world and innov ation. >> So do you think when the when people. here are changing the prime ministers. is is it because the prime minister is. not risktaker or is it because they're. trying to take risk and nobody wants. them to. [laughter].

>> I think it's I I think that's that's a. very very shrewd remark. Made me think. for a moment. Well, I think if you're looking at the present. prospective prime minister, I think yes, I think he is um what you might call a. risk taker. He he's got that attitude.

Um the present prime minister is a. lawyer and is therefore far more. cautious and always has been. So, why. was Andy Burnham elected? Yes, maybe. you're right. Maybe people have seen. that this is what we need. >> Now, is that going to work? I have no. idea at all. And I don't get into. politics, so I don't approve or. disapprove. [laughter]. >> Uh, but I I think you've hit.

>> a very shrewd point. Yeah. Maybe there's. hope. >> there. [laughter]. And then explain me how can you change a. prime minister in middle of the term. here like is there some something that. allows you because every country at. least majority countries until there's a. protest. >> uh the prime minister doesn't resign in. middle and just walks away right. >> there has to be an electoral process. either in four years or 5 years. depending on what the country goes.

through. >> and after that you can change the prime. minister maybe change every 5 years. that's fine. >> but every one year, two year like. >> yes. >> how is that possible? What's happening. structurally? How how your democracy or. the country allows it? >> Yes, you use the word structurally. >> Well, there isn't a structure. >> because there's no written constitution. >> around it. [laughter]. >> You can just change anyone anytime. How? >> Provided there is a majority, the constitution can shift.

There's no written constitution. Wh-. which is curious because for every. country that we gave independence to, we. insisted on them having a written. constitution. [laughter]. >> And you guys don't have it. >> We don't have one. >> Wow. >> The You're telling me United Kingdom? >> Yes. >> Doesn't have written constitution. >> Yes. Absolutely. You will find no document. apart from the bill of rights and apart.

from the Magna Carta and and obviously. legislation that sets down the balance. of rights and all the rest of it. There. is no document that sets up the. constitution of the United Kingdom. >> And so everybody can have their own. interpretations and then use it. >> They do. Which again is why we I keep. going back to this idea that we sort of. muddle through. [laughter] We're making. up our constitution. It is it is. evolving as we go along. Not like the. United States where it evolves according. to Supreme Court decisions or according.

to the decisions o of the um houses. >> Wow. So it's just majority and. interpretations. >> Yes. >> Whoever is a better con like whoever is. more influencing at convincing people. wins. There's no written line to hold. them accountable for that. >> pretty much. >> That is. And you taught the world to write a. constitution. That. >> exactly [laughter]. >> British. Sorry, I have to say this. This.

is British hypocrisy. >> It would absolutely couldn't agree with. you more. And I wrote a few of them when. I was in the foreign office. Yeah. >> So, [laughter]. >> this is what they quote about British. hypocrisy when they write all around the. world. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But in a curious way, um, it works. Now. here you you've you've just hit a point. where um we've have an election. We we.

don't have well we have a a a change of. prime minister midterm. >> Mhm. >> An election in a small. town in England. >> Sets up the new prime minister. and where you've just put your finger on. a very very good point. Did they elect. him because they saw that he might be. [clears throat] able to take risk? So here is a constitutional change. You. know, the constitution is allowing a. prime minister hopefully.

>> to sort of do that sort of thing. >> Maybe let's hope for the best. >> Well, this is it. But this is again I go. back is how we sort of muddle through. >> And we do get there in a curious way. we. do get there and we can already see um. we've been through a very bad patch of. hate. on the internet developed through the. internet uh. shouting at each other.

marches one way or the other. but I don't know whether you've noticed. it but I've noticed there has been a. slight quietening down of all that just. recently. the hate. >> Yes, >> it's. >> the sort of clashes. >> It's going down or it's going up. >> I think it's going down. >> It [snorts] It was peaking couple of. years ago, months ago. >> Yeah.

>> I've not noticed, but. >> You haven't? Yeah. I maybe I'm an. optimist, but I I I feel sort of I mean, living in London, one sort of gets the. vibe. And uh I think I think that's. going down. And there again. there seems to be the beginnings of sort. of sea change. >> M it's a good thing then if it's. happening got to be for the good. Yes. Absolutely. Cuz we cannot go on the way. we've been going on. >> True. True. >> We really can't.

>> You you were talking about one sting. operation in UK. >> and you said I and you digress and then. you cut that story short. Which was that. first thing operation in UK which was. amazing. >> Oh that that was um I mean that was the. first first case I was on where the. Czechlovac spy was. >> what was it? Explain. >> Oh right he he was he was suspected he. he was picked up at what we thought was. a dead letter drop which is a place. where somebody puts a message to be. picked up by someone else. Okay.

>> that there was a chalk mark and a place. that looked as though it was a dead. letter box. So, so we thought that's. interesting. Um, so we began to follow. him surveillance. Um, and there were. more chalk marks and yeah, we we thought. yeah that is a dead letter box. So we. housed him that is putting where he. lived [snorts] and uh then um we picked. up [clears throat]. signals being sent regularly on a.

particular day at a particular time and. in those days it was signals that they. made. they weren't squirting him out as. they do nowadays, different. Uh so we. thought, well, what we'll do is um catch. him at it. And in those days, they would use. something called a one-time pad, which. was a cipher. that was on a pad just for that. particular day. And we were hoping that. we could catch him with the cipher.

>> Okay. >> At wherever he was on his um. signaling. >> so um we blocked the drains so that he. couldn't flush it down the the L and uh. the um police went in you know because. we use the police to go in and they. caught him in Fli. There he was at his. desk, funnily enough. >> Oh, and he was writing his signal. >> Actually, he was signaling. He was.

sending his signal out with his one time. pad there. >> To who? >> That was his um to check the Czech. Republic spy. >> So, he was a Czech Republic spy. >> Yeah. >> And then you caught him. And then what. do you do with them? >> Prosecuted him. >> Okay. and they stay here on the British. land or do you send them back and. countries get. >> he he did his jail time here and then he. was released when the wall came down. >> Okay. >> So that was the first one. It was the.

first time we'd actually used the. process that I described to you earlier. which was um which was very exciting and. and it was great just to take take him. down while he was doing it. Um, so yeah, I think the next one was um we had. someone in the working in the um factory. that made submarine tiles for our. submarines. They were tiles that. prevented other submarines from um sonar.

attacking them. M. >> and uh he was picked up trying to. contact the Russians or the Soviets as. them was to sell them the tile. So uh well it was quite amusing actually. because we had a a obviously the Russian. officers um could speak Russian. >> Mhm. >> We had a a very good humored one who who. was absolutely brilliant. So he.

contacted the man who was trying to sell. these tiles and told him that he was. from the Russian embassy and he was very. interested to meet up. [gasps]. We had these wonderful telephone calls. between them setting up the meet and. then we set up at a calf [laughter] and. he came in uh and he sat down and you. know the deal was made and he went out. and there was this tile in the car so he. was caught well in for a grande. So that again worked and the the.

as far as terrorism is concerned the the. objective is to try and prosecute and to. catch infle. >> because it saves a lot of effort you. know if you can show that someone's got. the bomb with them which we've done in a. number of times. Yeah. Anyway, sorry. rambling on. >> No, it's okay. I like I like when you. just keep telling and then there's so. many threads that you pick up and then I. I write a note. I was like, "Okay, let's. go here now. I have this last couple of. two three questions. >> Yeah, sure.

>> One is. >> as a director of one of the most. powerful. secret agencies of the world, when have you felt the most powerless in. your life? >> Oh, all the time. [laughter]. >> One should never be in a position of. thinking one's powerful. I mean, when. you said one of the most powerful. agencies, I thought, well, really? [laughter].

>> But in your life, like when have you. been the most anxious? >> Probably when I was born, those two air raids. I think I was. I think I was really really lucky. to have had. a youth where I was totally independent. and you had to look after yourself. Being anxious wasn't an option.

>> A lot of people feel anxious today. They. feel powerless. They make up things in. their head. >> Yes. >> How do you if someone's listening and. they are very anxious and powerless. right now? helpless at this situation. >> Yes. >> What should they do so that they start. feeling powerful from tomorrow? >> Yeah. [snorts]. >> At least they have power over their own. life. How can they feel that? >> Yeah. Think about someone who's in a. worse position than themselves. That immediately makes them better off.

>> True. True. It it fills you with. gratitude. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, you can. walk down the street and you can see. someone in a wheelchair. pushing themselves along and you think. that really is awful for them. And yet. there they are pushing themselves along. the street sort of in a sense enjoying. themselves. Olympians, parolympics, you know, the guts of these.

people, you look at them and you think, what on earth can I complain about? So yeah, go and think of someone who's. in a worse position than you and you. will immediately feel better. >> Yeah. Like go down, take a walk, and. start finding people who are worse than. you, and you'll. >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in my day, we. were just told to scrub a floor. Get on. with it. Why should life be fair? >> That's actually a very good thing. I'm I. I might do that sometime. [laughter].

No problem. >> I don't feel I don't feel very low in. life in general, but next time I do, I'm. going to scrub a floor because I think. it's good because you know during the. during the co times. >> Yes. >> we were [snorts] all locked up the whole. family. >> and uh there was no help, nothing. So. you had to in family like mom, dad, me, brother, we all had to take chances on. scrubbing the floor, mopping this, doing. this and like all household chores which. we usually take things for granted,

right? >> Yes. >> And that made us so humble. >> Yes. >> It was so good. >> Yes. >> And it bonded us as a family. I think. >> nobody had time to feel sad about co. because they were like, "Hey, you need. to wash your utensils and then you need. to mop the floor.". >> So right [laughter]. you're so right, Raj. Yeah, that's. brilliant. Absolute way of putting it. I. mean, when we as kids, you know, in the. war growing up, you had to eat. everything that was put in front of you.

Why? Because there were sailors at sea. dying to bring that food to you. That. brought it home. >> Yeah. >> You know, there were people, you know, who are a hell of a lot worse off. What. are you complaining about? You don't. like your egg or or whatever. It's. spinach. [laughter]. Here's. the last question which I ask everybody. is. what cost did you pay to become.

the director of an intelligence agency? >> Well, it was my choice. I was asked so I. had the opportunity to say no. It was my. choice. So no cost. But there's always a. cost which a human being pays in terms. of sacrifices in order to be really good. at their job. Maybe it's their family. life, maybe it's the opportunity at. wealth, maybe it is physical health, maybe something because you're so. immersed in your thing.

>> That's the reason you you reach a. certain position because that position. would have. like maybe 500 people admired and wanted. that and aspired to have that position. but only you got it. So there must be. some reason in you you must have. sacrificed something in your life. >> I I know it's such a good question and I. I feel sort of trit saying I can't think. of it. I've got a a wife. We've been. married over 60 years. She supported me.

all the way through. She's brilliant. She was the best intelligence officer. I've ever come across. She got all the. information I ever wanted. >> [gasps]. >> um we write books together and and you. know we've had a fantastic life. so what have I got to complain about um. I made the choice of going into the. agencies. judged the risk going back to risk again. came out to the conclusion yeah I think. I can do this job I hope I can do it and.

then when spending so much time making. sure that you do do it right that you. haven't really got time to moan about. the things that might go wrong or. whatever, you've balanced your risk all. the time, you've done your best and I. think as long as you do your absolute. best and you know you've done your best, then. >> yeah, >> what have you got to complain about? >> But do you think does it cost you. sometimes a relationship because you. lied to your wife in the beginning once,

right? And she was a part of the. operation or intelligence. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> And she didn't know about it. Maybe she. took it in a nice way, but that could. have costed you a relationship. >> No. >> Do you? No, that's not a cost to pay at. all. >> Well, I think I'm lucky again because I. I think I've had luck. Does that make. sense? >> Yeah, that makes sense. >> Um. because she is who she is. She never. made it difficult ever, you know. She's. never pride. I've told her things, you.

know, and she's never talked about them. Um, so that is huge luck, you know, and. it and it comes. at no price whatsoever. >> You know, you won the lottery. >> Sorry. >> You won the lottery. >> I won the lottery and I did with with. with the agents, you know, the the the. officers in in the agencies. I mean, that was winning the they are such. fantastic people. But another trit phrase, they were.

ordinary people doing an extraordinary. job. They they were fantastic to work with. Um and again it goes back to the. selection process. You knew who you were. working with. >> True. I really appreciate this. this attitude where you have so much. gratefulness for the life you have. lived. It's it's incredible and it's. it's contagious at the same. [laughter]. Well, so are you cuz you're doing the. same thing. You know, here you are.

running your company, more than one, and as I said earlier, your team just. shows exactly who you are. Enthusiastic, friendly, happy, dynamic. It was huge, massive, massive energy. >> Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> Thank you. I I would just correct you a. little bit there. It's my team is happy, cheerful, contagious. That's how I am. [laughter]. It's not the other way around.

>> Well, you see, we've both had the same. experience. >> Yeah. >> Which which we're we're incredibly. lucky. >> True, true. Absolute luck. Thank you so. much. Pleasure having you. >> You, too. Thank [clears throat] you for. all the difficult questions. >> Oh, no. And thank you for dodging them. [laughter]. >> Exactly. >> First thing I have to say is you run a. fantastic team. They are brilliant. They. are so kind and also they're so happy.

with it. [music]. >> Thank you. >> Really great team. Thank you so much. Very efficient. >> Really efficient. >> It means a lot that you say this. >> Oh my goodness. It's so true. >> It really is. >> You don't drink tea? >> I do drink tea. >> Okay. >> And I mean, funnily enough, my. brother-in-law. >> Mhm. um was one of the I I think he was. the second last planter in Sri Lanka. >> A tea plant. >> as a tea plant. >> Wow.

>> When I finished my law exams, >> I went out to visit him. Uh and I got. pneumonia. So I stayed in Sri Lanka for. 3 months. It was absolutely fantastic. [laughter]. >> Thank you for watching this episode till. the end. We would love to know what you. liked or disliked about this episode and. which guests you would like to see on. the show. Let us know in the comments. Your feedback help us improve and make. every episode a little better. I'll see.

you next time. Until then, keep figuring. out.