Billionaire Nithin Kamath's SECRETS To Make BIG Money In Life | Zerodha Founder | FO41 - Raj Shamani

You know I saw a news article of one of. our competitors saying they will get 30. crore Indians to invest in stock markets. over the next five years and I'm like. dude what are they smoking I mean in. India you know there is there are not. more than 10 cr people who make more. than 2 lakh rupees a year. So we live in. an environment like this where if you. raise money or you know you're a listed. company people are going to jump down on. you if if there's no growth. So the. founders are now forced to constantly. say do show growth in some form. See in. the business of money what is right for.

the investor is hardly ever right for. the customer. It almost sounds ugly, right? In a country where. 140 crore Indians make less than two. lakh rupees a year, right? How can one. guy take 100? It just doesn't seem fair. and [music]. maximum people in India. get attention at least in the startup. world right now the moment they raise. funds. Right. Right. Like every day you read. newspaper I mean you read digital news.

media houses. they're celebrating people who are. raising funds not people who are. actually making profits or anyone else. right. so haven't you thought key let me raise. funds as well just for the sake of the. PR and let me make it like the big. valuation business because. no the thing is so so when he started. the business in 2010 uh it's really the. worst years for a stock broker to start. because you know after the financial. crisis uh 2010 was the year when brokers.

lost a lot lot lot of money uh across. the world because [clears throat] there. was no trading activity etc. So it and India was you know still not. very hot in terms of you know VC etc. So. maybe in 2010 if you had met. professional VCs and they would have. given us money we would have taken it. Um we started making money in the first. year. Uh you know mainly thanks to Nikil. today in trading right because the our. our you know when we started the. business I used to me and Nicholas used. to trade together. Nik is seven years. younger to me you know he uh [snorts] he.

saw me trading in the house. So he. started he also picked up quite early. and um um so in 2009 you know I said I. kind of realized that Nickel is a better. trader than I was and I said you know. there's no point two people sitting in. trading and but I I was always the kind. who was interacting with other traders. know I used to run some really large. Yahoo messenger groups uh I used to be. uh you know running the largest awkward. community actually on stock markets. wow [laughter]. awkward was used for market. Crazy.

I remember posting something on. someone's wall with like an cool emoji. and everything. I went on those. communities, you know, after a while. That's very smart. That's your growth. hack. That was that was really the first. growth hack. Then around 200, you know, coming back. to why we didn't do this fund raise for. PR, right? So around 2012 13 is when Zeroda. started doing a little okay, you know. So, you know, the first year of the. business, we survived because Niklo was. sitting and trading the markets. Uh the. second year, the business started making. money, right? And as soon as we started.

making money you know I started getting. interact you know interacting with. startups and founders etc. [snorts]. And that's when you know I kind of. realized that if you go raise because. these these founders were raising money. from VCs right and. um. but then I also realized by then that. you know there is a baggage that comes. along with raising money right because. now you can't really run the business. the way you want. you have to get a. bunch of these guys agree on the way you. want to run the business right and.

in in my previous aftar between 2005 to. 2010 I used to manage people's money and. I used to really hate the obligation. money brought on the table right I mean. I used to hate picking up the phone call. when I didn't want to pick up a phone. call but very tough to do very tough to. not to pick a call when someone's given. you money right so you know and I hated. it so in 20 before Zera started you know. we returned all the money and you know I. said you know what I don't want to do. this anymore so one was that you know I. was very fearful of obligations two was.

you know when I spoke to these venture. capitalists uh no one had experience of. a retail broking platform right so for. me it was like you know how do you you. know get them to be in sync of a. business they don't understand I mean. they all they were all good at. e-commerce etc but retail broking you. know no one invested until I think 2016. right and no one really had the. background of understanding Indian. retail market also in that whole VC. crowd. So second was you know I thought. dude it's it's a problem you know if I. had to sell something to someone who.

doesn't get it right as in you know like. it'll slow the business down and third. thing was was really I kind of realized. that you know if you take the route of. fund route you know getting VC money etc. is that. you lose a moat okay and that moat is. see in the business of money what is. right. for the investor is hardly ever right. for the customer. Yeah. Right. I mean if you know uh it's very. you know tough to uh convince an.

investor. Yeah. You know you know and. like in the sense you know it's very. easy for me for example today as Zerodat. as a business to get up and send like. blast of saying you know a loan. available for you. We'll make a lot of money right and I. would have done I would probably have. been forced to do it if a VC was there. on the table. But we wouldn't do it. because I know it's a bad product. you. know having a you know us pushing a loan. on an investing platform is probably the. shittiest thing you can do to your. customer right but. uh but yeah so you know so I that.

realization happened by then that you. know it's very tough to do what is right. for the customer. uh if you have VCs on your cap table you. know it's especially in the business of. money you know especially where you know. this whole you know business of savings. and investing you know we can't I don't. want to be doing it and and Then we said. see to run a business today you need to. have some mode right. yeah you need to have some advantage. over your competition and know in our. head it was if you can do what is right. for the customer.

that itself will be a large right if you. go try to take money from VCs then you. know it becomes the deepest pocket wins. game right as in. then you know someone else will raise. more then you know you have to go raise. more and then you know it's fight till. you know someone someone dies. he said we don't want to take it and uh. by then I super lucky to find Kalash. right uh because Kalash doesn't like to. be called a co-founder but uh he's as. co-founder and he's probably more. important to the business than anyone. else you know including me in the. business because because there was no.

tech background as such you know I mean. I had a lot of ideas but someone has to. implement those ideas convert those. ideas into a product right. so 20ou until 2013 we were working on. vendor products. and uh and that's when I met Kalash and. Kellash joined us and I think we both. hit off because of the similar kind of. philosophies in life, right? Um and uh. and then with Kalaj, you know, he came, you know, he got together like a team of. superhuman tech guys on our team, right? [snorts]. I don't think there's any other company,

you know, I'm this is probably one of. those things I'm most proud about. I. don't think there's any other company in. India right now where a tech team no one. has quit in the last four, five years. Wow. You know, like there are two. people, you know, one we asked them to. leave, one one you know, had personal. reasons, married and etc. had to leave. but no one else has left till now right. and uh which is. incredible incredible I I. I keep seeing tweets of like crazy.

startup founders who are probably. running like amount of like billion. dollar startups they tweet out blatantly. up front if you are working anywhere you. think you're good take 20% up from us. take 50% up from us like come join today. and if after lucrative those kindly. nobody's left. Yeah. No, I mean and it's not even that. we were paying the most, right? As in. see the thing is eventually the company. did well and you know there was ESOP and. wealth creation and all. So eventually. everyone made money but we haven't hired. a single person on the team promising.

stock options or you know we ne we were. not overpaying them know it was never. the same you know people would have. always were making maybe 20 30% lesser. you know until 2019 2020 you know so. uh so it is uh what kept people together. was a philosophy right saying that we're. not going to chase money right we're. going to do what is right for the. customer we're going to you know in that. process we're going to enjoy whatever. we're building right and and really that. That's what keeps people together. You. know, a lot of people think money is. what gets people together. But it's. absolutely wrong because people who come.

for money leave for money as well, right? If you entice people to join you. with greed, you know, I mean, if if a. founder says, "I'm going to give you 20. 30% hike, jump here." That that guy is. going to leave you for 20 30% hike. I. mean, why would he stick around, right? So it is and and like I told you right. you know like some time back which is. you need to give yourself long enough to. give yourself a chance to do well in. life right it's the same thing with your. team as well as in the team it's. phenomenal how how much the team.

improves if you all stay together for. long periods of time right today I think. the big problem in the industry is that. teams are not sticking together for long. enough and that's one of the reasons why. I think you know you don't have good. quality products out there. right eventually. the end of all of this. I think the. reason Zeroda is Zeroda today is because. of the quality of product and not really. pricing or you know the way we portray. ourselves in a public. It's actually the. core offering and and how we treat our. customers. I think these are the two. things that make us what it is because.

we are like you know we're about to hit. 10 million customers. We haven't spent a. single rupee on advertisement yet know. we've u. we actually charge an account opening. fees. So you know when someone askked me. what is your CAC I say we make 200. rupees on an account you know customer. so we a negative CAC and I don't think. there's any other businesses that can. claim all that. So uh and and all of. that really boils down to the core. philosophy around. what do we think about money? What do we. think about our customer? What do we.

think about our team? Right? Because this is just an outcome, right? As in we could have never. predicted it. I mean you know it would. have probably taken us if not for COVID. etc the growth it would have probably. taken us 10 more years to get to where. we are today. But I have I have a. feeling that we would have stuck around. for 10 years uh you know as a team. because. uh you know a lot of core people on this. team believe in the philosophy of of. what the business stands for and. yeah tell me tell me now I have followed. two questions on this one is if you're.

always thinking about customer okay so. you said one of the major reasons why. you didn't want to raise money was you. didn't want to serve someone who don't. understand the retail business and you. don't want to be like I don't want to. work for profit maximization. I want to. work for maximization of my customer. satisfaction and that will eventually. make me money more than anything else. Right? But if you're always thinking about that. where do you make money then? Right? Like how does let's say let's let's.

simplify it even better. How does Zerza. makes money? Right? See the thing is if a business has to. sustain for it to do its job to the. customer. Yeah. Right. So a business not making money is. is is a normal business. It's not a. business to be very honest right and uh. and we've been profitable right from the. year one right of a business. So it's. not like you know we turn profitable. now. So uh we don't charge so when we. our pricing has remained the same for. the last 10 12 13 years. So uh you know.

so we when we started you know in India. the the the brokerage fees you know when. you every time you buy and sell a stock. the fees was a percentage fees. right so you know people you know if you. buy for a lakh rupees you have to pay. 1,000 rupees brokerage if you buy for. say 1,000 rupees you have to pay 1%. whatever you know and. and the question we asked when we. started the business is that in an. online world the effort involved is the. same right that means you know if you. buy for say one lakh rupees or buy 4,000.

rupees. on an online platform. The effort is the. same. You know, we're not. it is not like fulfilling an e-commerce. order that has to go pick up from 10. different places. You know, there's. stock exchange at the background. So, we. said the effort is the same. The pricing. should be the same as well. So, we started with this whole flat. people trade model. It's there's nothing. unique about it. US had done it 25 years. before, right? Like discount brokers in. the US started, you know, like the. Charles Schwab trade. They started in. the early '90s. um in India you know no. one had done it till 2010 when we.

started it. uh u so 20 rupees per trade is really. the business model so. in 2015 what happened see zeroda started. with an idea that it's a it's going to. build a platform for very active traders. in the market okay. it was never really meant to be what it. is today right it was supposed to be. like this whole. like a niche platform like you know I'm. sure you know some of you guys who make. video right you you'll probably have a. platform where you guys interact. interact with each other and you know. maybe it's a WhatsApp group but very. small community.

small right so here. as an active trader you know because you. know I remember that or messenger etc I. was thinking of an extension of that. saying you know for all these active. traders on these communities who. complain about high brokerage costs can. you build a trading platform. uh but then around you know around I. think 2012 13 the ambition suddenly. became you know what this can't be just. for this niche you know of people you. know it has to kind of outgrow this. Uh. so Kalash came in and started building a. product right because until then it was.

a vendor product. It was. I mean it was a it was a very clunky. kind of an experience you know. So when. Kellash turned up with Kite you know in. 2015 you know is when we launched Kite. which is a trading app. We realized that. Kash had actually I mean we have all. worked together but all credit goes to. him for building it. you know he had. simplified the experience. but also gave all the bells and whistles. that active traders need right and. that's when you know suddenly we became. you know very ambitious saying.

you know what we need to go get you know. people who invest in the markets as well. and not who just day trade or. professional trade. and uh but the problem for the business. then was we were getting labeled as a. only for active traders right as in if. you're active trader go to this. community uh go to zeroda if not ICI. HDFC what if you want to invest we. wanted to change the brand image so in. 2015 December you know one of those. random instinctive decisions you know me. and Kalash were on the way to Kochin uh. for a press conference you know sitting.

in the airport and I told Kalash dude. why don't we just go zero brokerage for. equity investing you know I mean like we. don't anyways make any money. um because equity investor was like I. think we were making like 2 3% of our. revenue was coming from you know this. and uh I think it was 2015 December 16th. something like that and uh it was a. Friday and Monday we were zero brokerage. for equity investing. So we are zero for. equity investing but we charge 20 rupees. for trading active trading [snorts] and. uh so yeah we don't make money when.

someone buys a stock and holds it for a. few days and sells it right but we make. money when people are actually actively. trading right. now a lot of people don't understand is. that on the Indian stock exchanges uh. the number of pe the percentage of. transactions where actually people are. holding a stock and selling is 3%. So 90. so 90% of the exchange turnovers. actually comes from active traders. But. the. you know like like all of us right we. all think that what happens on stock.

exchanges you buy a stock wait for a few. days and sell it. Yeah, that's only 3%. of the business, right? 97% of the. business is where people are actually. buying and selling uh through the day. But but here's other interesting thing. that 3% of the you know of the volumes. comes from 90% of the people. That means. 98% of the people around you know which. is why you only find people who buy and. sell stocks. They're together. contributing only 3% to the turnover of. the exchanges, right? M. but there is a niche community of active. traders who go mental you know in the.

sense you know they'll have 1 lakh. rupees in their account but they'll. trade for 10 cr rupes in a day right and. stuff like that you know so there are. people who make their living of trading. the markets right as in. so today the reason we make money is. that while we cater to the largest. equity investing group we also continue. to cater to the largest active trading. trading and that's how uh so we. uh on a on an average we you know we. have between 10 to 15 million orders a. day out of which around 30% doesn't make.

us any money but 70% makes money. So you. know so between 7 to 10 million orders a. day is generating some form of revenue. It's very small fees but you know you. multiply it 10 million times it becomes. a large amount you know. So and but the. problem with that our business is that. our fortunes are very dependent on. what's happening to the underlying stock. markets. Yeah. Right. So if if markets are volatile. more trades. If markets are not volatile. less trades. the market goes down for a. while reduce trades. So we are like a. derivative of the underlying markets. So.

a lot of the revenue that can be. potential here is also is is very not in. our control of sorts. Uh and yeah so that's that's essentially. how uh we've ended up um we have made. money right from the start and the last. two years have been just outliers. You. know we are in the middle of excesses. you know it's just you know it feels. like top of a bull market. So uh you. know the financials also has just. ballooned up like crazy but you know if. I had to bet on it I I would think our. profits of last year I don't think we're. going to hit that the next two three. years.

because you think the next sessions are. not going to be that. I think I think I think it's it's it's. you know there there are a lot of world. problems and you know [laughter]. and. I have a couple of like two three. followup questions and this is like I. you know I came up with like in my mind. I thought I'll ask this I'll this and. I'm not asking anything which I prepared. like I thought I'm not asking that I'll. tell you before actually move forward. let me tell you. that today on a genuine note that I'm. not doing this uh podcast with let's say.

an entrepreneur or someone who I want. let's say if I get you I'll get views or. with the mindset of anything else I'm. generally coming from a point where I'm. a fanboy of you and I tell you why I do. I've never said this on my podcast till. now I had like lot guess right I've not. said this and I'll tell you why because. every news I read about you. it makes me like it gives me goals right. like for some reason it gives me goals. and the fact that you're very.

transparent about hey you know what in. the beginning I was driven out of greed. now I'm driven out of this now I'm doing. this now I'm doing this this is what and. every day like you do something it's. commendable it's intense so you are like. man goals and I [laughter] wanted to. just just put this out there I thought. I'll start with this but then our. conversation. I'll tell you you know sometimes I. question myself saying you know why am I. an outlier it's not that I'm the only. one who thinks like this. a lot of these founders that I know I.

mean think like this but they can't be. like this because they married the devil. [laughter]. they raise money from venture capital. you know there is I'm just kidding but. no but but the thing is uh you know once. you are forced to sell a certain story. now if you have like you know I don't. think there'll be any business out there. who can come and claim that you know. what a VCled business or investor listed. company who can say that next three. years I won't make as much profit as I. made last year because the problem with.

the world today is that everyone just. values you based on you know your growth. right if your growth is plateauing. they'll dis you right like for example. like you know I don't know if you're. seeing what's happening with Coinbase. and Robin note right two of the largest. platforms in the. You know, Robin Hood is from down from. $85 to $8 stock price. Coinbase is down. from $350 to $50, right? And this is not. like small companies. You know, these. are companies which are 80 hundred. billion valuation which have lost $70. billion in valuation. All because why?

The growth just flatued. It's not like. they're no growth is down. The growth is. just plateaued. Right? So we live in an. environment like this where if you raise. money or you know you're a listed. company where people are going to jump. down on you if if there is no growth. So. the founders are now forced to. constantly say do show growth in some. form right and so there's circumstances. which makes them sometimes not be true.

to you know uh what they know or what. they what's lying in their head. There. are no ulterior motives in terms of what. you're doing. You know, if you're doing. this. just out of curiosity and just out of. saying, you know what, I want to meet. people, learn, and etc., you can. actually be true to yourself, right? But. tomorrow, you know, you go raise $10. million from someone. Now, you'll be. forced to get a certain number of views. on your videos. Yeah. Then you'll have to you'll be forced to. say some clickbay things to get those. views, right? And then the business just. changes, you know, it just transforms.

you know a person you as a face of the. business will now probably start saying. stuff which you would not have said if. you're not in a pressure to you know go. get that growth you know so uh and and. over the last one two years you know. people have come to us almost you know. said you know what they'll write a plan. check right [laughter] to to become. investor in the business you know like. uh and we said no I mean because this. freedom is invaluable I think you know I. think we need India needs a lot more.

founders who can come and talk truly and. and not be under the influence of money. or know not be under the influence of. you know like this whole chasing growth. all the time because we need founders. like us as well and uh US has it you. know I mean if in the US know. like you know you listen to say. Patagonia you know you listen to like. there are a lot of founders who have. taken the route of saying you know what. I'm going to grow slowly I'm not going. to raise lot of money and constantly. chase growth and I don't want to become. this Deca con or whatever cons you know.

I'm I'm [clears throat] happy you know. for whatever the business generates it. profits but in India I think you know. you still you know in the new age world. there are not too many and to be very. honest. that's why it's easy for me to stick out. because you don't have too many such you. know I mean ideally we want more of such. people you know there are 10 people who. are thinking like us it'll be tough for. me to stick out you know so. you know so uh. it's it's actually you know like over. the last two years you know building the. social media audience you know, I mean. on Twitter and LinkedIn has actually.

been so simple because, you know, because there there is no one else. saying this stuff and because I'm able. to say it, you know, it just ends up. creating activity and audience which uh. u yeah so it's it's but yeah but I think. I think we need the country needs a lot. more people who think about business. bootstrap founders. not just about bootstrap you know even. if you raise money from VCs be true to. the VC right as in don't promise like. you know I I I just know saw a news.

article of one of our competitors saying. they will get 30 crore Indians to invest. in stock markets over the next 5 years. and I'm like dude what are they smoking. I mean in India you know there is there. are not more than 10 cr people who make. more than 2 lakh rupees a year. right I mean. where will they find this 20 cr Indians. to invest when you know and they don't. have enough money to maybe you know make. a living you know so uh but they have to. say that story because they're trying to. raise money and and you know if they. raise money from venture capitalists and. and they were honest about growth the.

market size and all of that then the. expectations are set up front you're a. listed you know you're a going a company. was going IPO you come set the right. expectations you say you know what I. think there's a challenging time over. the next two like you know if I would. say zod IPO I would come and say you. know I think the business is peing I. think the next two three years you know. it looks highly unlikely that we'll be. able to generate more profits from what. than what we did last year you set the. expectation the stock price will will. will open wherever it has to open right.

as in you sell it at factoring and all. of that. then you know the your investors know. the risk they're investing in you for. those reasons now but if I come and say. you know what I'm going to get 30 cr. Indians to invest in the markets then. I'm living for the next 3 five years. right as in so it's a um it's not that. so there is it's not I'm not saying. there is uh no way to not raise money. from you VCs or you know and and people. and and run the business. There is I.

mean there are a lot of people who have. done it well. But the problem in that. private space right now you know is that. people think that I need to oversell to. get maximum valuation because then I'll. get the most credit and blah blah blah. right I I think those I I have a feeling. it'll correct you know all of those. things will correct because in the last. 3 to 5 years I think you know our. private markets have been in the middle. of large excesses. there's so much. liquidity flushing you know you could do. whatever you want I mean intense yeah so. I think I think you know I have a. feeling it's right now you know we are.

it's just the beginning of the end you. know in the sense of a of a correction. phase and and and maybe in two three. years. people will be more real in terms of. what they say and um yeah so so yeah so. that's that's so let's just talk about. this because you see that the worldwide. markets are getting corrected everything. is going down right now but in the VC. world it doesn't get to slow down like. there's a there's a massive mismatch. between both the worlds right. here in the private markets people are.

still overvaluing things they're making. crazy valuations and why do you think. that that's the it's it's not actually. you know so so thing is private markets. typically always lag the public markets. for 6 months. right you know so now if you're. listening you know if you're looking at. the newspaper and looking at deals these. are deals that were done six months back. you know these are not new deals now so. uh new deals are slowing down uh in. India not as much because the thing is. I've been speaking to global investors. over the last few months you know very.

actively trying to figure out what they. think about India there's a lot of. interest in India a lot of interest in. India because we're one of the only few. countries who still has a 7% plus GDP. growth and I expected that is in so you. know one large country that can that is. expected to grow at 7%. our demographics. right I mean like we have the largest. number of 20 to 30 year olds in the. world. who have access to internet mobile and. all of that so so the the the world. believes that India will do well right.

so so there is still a lot of money. waiting by the side saying you know. every opportunity I'm going to come and. invest in Indian markets right so. uh so so I I have a feeling it'll you. know unless the story changes for the. world right uh you know suddenly you the. world thinks that India will not grow as. fast or. you know one of the good things going. for India is also there is kind of like. you know politically you know there is. some stability right yeah. so that's also very important right. because uh [snorts].

uh so India and then you know India's. huge beneficiary of whatever happened in. China last year right as in so all that. money that's because world has trillions. of dollars right I mean someone has to. do something with that money right so if. uh so some some of that money is going. to come to India so uh What will happen. I think is that. there will be slowdown in deals for. sure. But what has happened in India is. all of these large VCs who are never. looking at small rounds, they're all now. looking at small rounds. They want to. get into companies much earlier because.

it's becoming hard to get later. So I. think the ones who suffer the most in. whatever is happening right now is the. larger companies because it'll be very. tough for them to raise new rounds. But. people who are starting up I think there. are still a lot of people who are. betting on India who will take a bet on. founders. So, you know, if you're. looking at three to5 million, you know, seed rounds or series year rounds, I. don't see how that slows down for a. while. But, uh, and what do you mean by. for a while like at least two, three. years now going unless, you know, whatever this mayhem continues in the.

US, right? As in um um because it's it's. just I mean some of the haircuts on. these companies are ridiculous, you. know, and like I said like Coinbase has. just lost $70 billion in valuation. It's. intense. Yeah. You know, so if Coinbase is at 11. billion, whose Coinbase is one day revenue is. probably equal to the yearly revenue of. all the crypto exchanges in India, [laughter] right? you know, so how do. you then justify, you know, a valuation in billions of.

dollars for a, you know, for an Indian. crypto exchange of, uh, so like that, you know, so eventually people will. start doing that math, you know, they'll. be like. because these global investors can. invest into Coinbase also, you know, so. they'll be like, dude, should I do here or there, right? So I think it'll be tough for that guys, but people who are starting off, I think. there's there's there's going to be a. lot of interest. Okay. So I remember you said some. correct me that you said that. crypto exchange platforms are going to.

be much larger than broking like stock. broking platforms in one way because of. certain reasons right because the. markets are open 24/7 the access is much. like bigger and all of that and it's. just getting started. so yeah no do you still believe so like. the let's say so yeah so this was in the. context of if crypto as an asset class. outperforms forms stocks. See, at the. end of the day, what generates interest. is really greed and you know people are.

interested in stock markets because in. the last two years stock stock prices. went up. Yeah. People are interested in crypto because. you know it generated wealth. I mean I. mean generated returns you know to be. fair not because someone's really using. crypto as I don't think you know you. know become a million Indian crypto. investors anyone's using crypto for the. real crypto reasons right right so now. yeah so what I said then was that if. crypto continues to outperform stock. markets and crypto has all of these.

advantages over stock markets you know. of not being regulated you know a crypto. exchange being able to do anything they. want while you know we are regulated and. a bunch of regulations. u like know now that there are taxation. etc but there was no all of that right. so you know given all of that it was. just a matter of time before. people would move towards crypto right. so I mean some of it has course. corrected right as in which is I mean. the asset class itself is down I think. maybe 60% 50 60% and over.

uh and uh and and then you know. government has gotten up and said you. know there's going to be taxes it's it's. not going to be like you know there's. not going to be a regulatory arbitrage. that will help them so My point was that. that crypto had a regulatory arbitrage. of sorts and and that's maybe not fair. for people who can't offer crypto. So. you know and [snorts]. what are your views on crypto? I mean I don't understand the asset. class as in I haven't taken. seriously. I mean see thing is as a. large regulated player I don't want to.

even look at stuff which is not. regulatedly not allowed right. So you. know in my head I was like you know what. until the day there are clear regulation. as a crypto sebi comes out and says this. is how we can you know a broker can you. know deal in terms of crypto I mean. we've said you know we don't want to do. anything so we've said no to investing. in a lot of these crypto exchanges over. the last many years we probably. potentially lost opportunity to make. money but you know I'd rather have peace. of mind than than you know chase money. there you know so yeah I don't get it uh.

uh but you know if you actually see. what's happened over the last two three. days you know that it's it's a wild wild. west out there you know so it's. but okay from the philosophical point of. view do you think that something which. becomes this big. is there chances that this something. like this can fail and go back to zero. or do you think it's too big to fail. completely maybe there are going to be. corrections but it won't get eradicated. I mean just a $20 billion of a stable. coin go to zero I mean right in like no.

time so uh. this these things cyclally have. happened. I mean this isn't this isn't. like a first time you know and it's not. just crypto I'm saying even in stocks. you know I mean there have been Ponzi. schemes and there have like you know the. Bernie Moff scheme and. right so just becoming large doesn't. mean that it can't go down you know so. uh so there is there is you know and I. think that's the thing that people need. to be aware of the risk again another.

problems I think I've had with you know. the the the really big influencers on. social media like Elon Musk etc right. who've been peddling or Mark Cuban. because these are entrepreneurs that I. have looked up to through my life right. and suddenly you know them peddling. crypto saying you know yolo and etc I. mean. if you have a million dollars or you. know say you have say 10 cr rupes and. you're going to put 10 lakh rupees in a. crypto it's okay right but you have 10. lakh rupees and you're going to put 10. lakh rupees in crypto it's a problem I.

mean right because of the risks. associated with it and the problem with. the Cubans and the masks of the who've. been peding crypto is that they're not. educating their followers on that. They're not they're saying, you know, they're not saying, you know, don't risk. more than one person. They're almost making it seem like, you. know, there's a guaranteed way of making. money and so just go yolo. It doesn't. and [snorts]. and and yeah, like I think like you. know, I was just looking at Reddit etc. etc some of these threads you know where. you know people there's so many people. who committed suicide because of you.

know terror. So it's so see the thing is every asset. class comes with risk right. uh when it seems like higher the reward. you need to assume that higher the risk. right uh and then when higher the risk. you need to allocate lesser to it and. really that's the first. money management principle right as in. so when you take risks in life as in as. the risk increases you need to reduce. your allocation otherwise.

you know a lot of people think you know. I I hit a pottery and suddenly become. rich. You know, it doesn't work like. that. Yeah. So, I was I was speaking one of the. crypto entrepreneurs and what he said. made a lot of sense to me. He's like if. everybody is investing because they feel. that there's a scarcity okay because. it's limited in number everybody feels. that it's going to become big because. not everybody is believing in it and. that's why scarce okay if people are. putting it that way then I really want.

people to fail. because if everybody thinks that it's. going to make it big. it won't make it big. right. because if you're like it There has to. be people who don't need to think that. it's going to be big because if. everybody thinks that this will at the. end of the day make them money then. everybody will put in the money and then. nobody will make money. So the whole whole game is that there. has to be naysayers there has to be. yeses and then we see how the world. takes it over.

No but the thing is at the end of the. day there has to be some utility out of. it. Yeah. Intrinsic value. Yeah. There has to be. some it has to be solving for some. problem you know. I mean see if it is a. like the problem I have is if it's a. currency. it it can't be volatile right I mean the. most the the most fundamental thing that. that is needed for a currency is it has. to be stability. it has to be stability. now so if if it's not currency then what. is it is a question right as in why you. know if it's an asset as in what is it.

asset really solving for you know and. and those are the kind of fundamental. questions I have but I also kind of. agree agree that in a world where. governments are printing money left, right, and center, you know, maybe. there's, you know, there's an. opportunity for something like this, you. know, which is, uh, you know, which is. outside the government network of sorts, you know, so I get that as well, but I. don't get why because of that this. should go to, you know, like be at $1 at.

$100,000. I mean, like what is really. the intrinsic value of it? Just the. limited supply can be the intrinsic. value. I don't know. I mean you ask for. a value and get everyone to start using. it as currency then I get it. But. this whole investing into it is. something that I I personally still. haven't gotten it. you know I mean a. bunch of friends have tried to explain. [snorts]. maybe you know I I have you know like. I'm conflicted in some way and you know. that's why you know my not able to. understand but uh but yeah I I wouldn't.

you know if if if India allowed I. wouldn't mind putting say you know half%. 1% of of my net worth into crypto. because I think it's it's very risky and. know it's something I want to learn you. know if there's some utility on this. uh but uh but you know but but. aggressive ly putting lots of money I. think is stupid you know it's not worth. I mean I I say exactly the same thing. with stocks as well right as in if some. you know some guy has 10 lakh rupees and. going to put all 10 lakh rupees in a. midcap stock I say dude it's stupid you. know I mean you you shouldn't be doing.

it you know and diversify play it safe. do it all. no it's not play it safe I mean you can. be aggressive but I'm saying you need to. know how to be aggressive and and being. allin isn't aggressive allin is. stupidity. and allin and waiting for you know to. get lucky in life is is stupidity you. know I mean so yeah so if there's a. friend of mine who says you know what I. want to trade for a living and et take. 5% of your net worth. go aggressive right because what'll.

happen is like you know like I again you. know we spoke earlier right I think to. make money the markets also need to. stick in it for long enough. if you're someone who's like you know. keep kind of jumping off your trades. you'll not be able to make money you. know so a lot of people think you know I. buy quickly, buy, sell, buy, sell, buy, sell, make money. No one can, right? You. need to be able to stick on to a trade. when you are in a right trade, right? Yeah. If you're not able to stick on, it's a. problem. And and the problem is when you. have too much exposure to a single asset.

class or a single stock, it's very tough. to stick on as well, right? Because volatility gets you. fearful. And you know, when you're. fearful, you you you do stupidity. And. uh and like we talk about stupidity, right? I remember one of your tweets and. it made a lot of sense to me and it made. me wonder like are people stupid or. what's going on? I mean like stupid is a. strong word for that but it just made me. curious like why are smart people doing. it like this which was that a lot of.

businesses have more CAC than they'll. ever have in LTV. Right. Right. A lot of new businesses right. now, their cost for acquiring a customer. is much larger than the lifetime value. they'll get out of the customer, right? But they're still raising funds. They're. still getting funded and they're still. blowing up the money, right? Why do you think this is happening? No, like I said to give it more context to. people who are watching and make it. easier for everyone is let's say.

I make only 200 rupee profit from a. customer. but to get that customer to buy my. product I am spending 400 rupees then. I'm still getting funded by people who. are richer than me or maybe are running. companies to be like haha go ahead. forget it forget everything else you. just keep doing it forever. Like why is. it happening? See thing is today people. believe that once you have acquired a.

customer you will find other things to. sell to him right I mean that's the. first belief which I personally think is. wrong right it's uh. you know people today don't interact. with an app you know they interact with. an app contextually so what it means is. when you are in zeroda you're thinking. stock markets so if I if I'm doing. anything around trading, investing, you. look at it. But if I place a refrigerator and say,

you know what, buy a refrigerator. contextually you're off. Yeah. And a lot. of people have tried it. You know, a lot. of these super and and everyone's been. unsuccessful at it. You can't just. acquire a customer, build a. relationship, and start selling random. products to the customer. I mean, that's. my my personal belief. uh but I think there are a lot of you. know founders and investors who believe. that you know once you've built a. relationship you can somehow start doing. other things. The second thing is. in India there like I said right a.

problem is we have 150 cr population but. maybe only five crores have the money. the remaining population needs the money. right so for a lot of these businesses. the monetization is lend money in some. form yeah right so you know once you. build a relationship you've got more. data on the customer and if you have. more data on the customer can you lend. him better right see today the the the. big thing about big problem in lending. is if you don't have data it's very. tough to figure out which customer is. going to pay you back and which customer.

won't pay you back. which is the most important thing. required to build a lending business but. if you get some user behavior right then. you can start predicting. how easily or how you know because in. India you know your credit data is not. available for more than like six seven. cr Indians. right for Indians outside the six seven. crores who have never taken a you know. like a formal loan there is No, no data. at all as in so if you have no data, how. do you learn, right? So now based on.

your mobile phone bill payment like how. how effectively you have made can you. give them a loan, right? Or how. frequently you know like if you go to a. gym are you going are you a regular guy. and does a regular guy going to the gym. improve the chance of him returning. alone right? I mean stuff like and. there's just so much data that. interactions so so a lot of people are. also thinking that there's an. opportunity to build large lending you. know businesses in India so I think.

that's why they're getting funded you. know and and people are. and and finally which is maybe the most. important reason here right is that u. see every venture capitalist again is. not in it for full some years right. he's got a sevenyear fund cycle so in. seven years he has to return the money. Yeah. So his investments has to become larger. So he's finding he's always in a lookout. of another venture capitalist who will. buy this fund. So and that venture. capitalist is also looking at this.

company and saying is this company. growing like like I said earlier right. the the crux of of everything that's. happening around is growth. If you're a fast growing company. VCs are interested. If you are a company. which is plateauing in terms of growth, what happened to Coinbase? Lost 80% in. in in in stock value or Robin Hood, great businesses but lost 80% in value. It's going to happen. So So these VCs. are also incentivizing founders to go.

show growth in terms of users saying you. know what I'm 1 million customers, I. have 3 million customers, I have 5. million customers. So you know in in. five years this will be 100 million. customers and then think what can happen. to the business, right? That's really uh. uh you know. the crux of getting funds. getting funds you know so you'll have to. you have to show growth and to show. growth you cannot it's very tough to. show that kind of a growth organically. only few businesses historically have. done it you know maybe WhatsApp maybe.

Instagram like you know stuff that have. grown organically everything else or. Tesla you know I mean these these these. businesses have actually grown organic. everyone else have had to throw money to. grow and the problem with throwing money. to grow is that eventually it catches. up. Yeah. You know, I mean, you can't you can't. just keep throwing money forever. Yeah. Like I don't know if you've seen. what just happened on Netflix, right? As. in you know, they kept throwing money on. on content and user acquisition and. eventually now. and. yeah, it it's just it's a matter of time. and Netflix is a great business. That's.

why it lasted. I mean like you know the. business grew so well but uh eventually. at the end of the day the business needs. to have a mode which which is you know. is it helping a customer's life improve. in some way is it better than a. competitor so in the sense you know is. it a commoditized product because if. products are commoditized you have to. spend more money to acquire. right so I mean it boils down to these. two things if you don't if you're not. you know if you if if these two don't. click on you have to spend money to you.

know and and because India has got so. much attention from around the world. there is so much VC money chasing uh uh. that's how know a lot of these companies. are getting funded without being. profitable or with. with them even not having in many cases. sight to profitability as well. yeah but that's still happening so you. invest a lot as well right you invest in. startups you invest in climate uh. startups you sell in fintech like a lot.

of stuff right so do these people come. to you and give you excel sheet as well. [laughter] and then what what is the. reaction like bro. let's have a real talk let's not do this. so tell me like three fundamental. pillars if someone's looking here want. to grow or get money from you because. that's because of your philosophies. because. you definitely I mean if I ever do a. startup I would definitely want to raise. funds from someone like you who can. guide me in the right way rather.

someone who's like growth growth growth. is everything because I have never heard. anyone say this that you know it's. completely okay to not grow for 3 years. because you have your time so when. startups came to us you know this was. 2016 and fintech wasn't hard right as in. stock market tech wasn't hard and uh so. we said you know some of these startups. needed money right and that's how this. investing started so the the idea when. we started investing was for impact and. not with an ROI in mind for us it was. expanding the capital market ecosystem.

making life of our customers better by. giving him a niche you know experience. uh and and that started extending you. know like first startup came in a small. case was the first startup who came uh. they built an amazing kind of experience. and and then some others saw it and they. came so we kept investing uh into these. uh not once till date have we ever gone. to the startup and asked ROI and blah. blah blah right for us it is is this. product helping our customers the. capital market ecosystem in India.

and and we've been completely happy. about it. So we haven't exited anything. We've you know we you know we've like. you ask any one of them we've never. asked for a return of any top right and. uh uh so yeah so Nikl my younger brother. actually manages the public market. portfolio. So all our know all where we. chase returns is actually managed by him. and it's a it's a public portfolio. So. in the private space the chase right now. is impact right and uh so it was. but as an angel are you putting in money.

or no not. no we do I mean we I think. uh together there's probably I think we. call it we do it under we call it rain. matter we do it under that I think we. have 25 plus investments and anywhere. between two to 20 crores so it's it's a. little you know more than an angel check. of sorts know so. uh and um and then that rain matter. fintech It extended into rain matter. climate which is. uh know in 2019 we we kind of realized. that business is very profitable but.

there's no use of money for the business. you know the business generating cash. which is sitting in our banks we said. you know it should be used for some. impact as well you know and and this is. again thanks to Kalash again you know. and and you know two causes that are. very close to us around climate change. and creation of livelihoods because we. believe that in India the big problem to. solve is really creating jobs right and. uh every time technology you know. technology is making the world efficient. so it's leading to job losses and it's. creating job losses at the lowest run.

right as in uh you know if um so yes we. said you know we need to find ways to. you know reach out to there I mean. create you know find partner with folks. profits and nonprofits uh you know who. can help who who are looking at doing. something around these two causes. and I said you stick to these two niches. yeah this is I mean personally I am a I. uh one other cause here is around. health. So I think people. don't think about their health as much.

right as in and I find it almost. uh you know people talk about money. investing long-term etc. You know I I'm. very surprised when people talk about. all of these. without talking about health right. because really at the end of the day. there's no point making any wealth if. your health's not not in place. So, so. that's a personal cause. You recently. went through your wife's cancer journey. and your journey and you're very vocal. about it. You talk about it. What like what was it? How what kept you.

going? Because you were working on you. you come at work, right? You're doing stuff here, trying to build. stuff here. You're trying to work things. out with your personal life. Then you are like investing in other. startups, doing all these things as. well. So no see personally I'd say my. wife has been a dream you know. So I. mean like she's just been completely. positive through this whole last six. seven months. So uh so I think I've been. I' I've just been very lucky to to.

almost lead my life very unaffected. because of her outlook to all of this. and and we've actually almost fooled. around through the entire journey and. it's just been a lot of fun you know and. uh I mean a lot of fun in the sense you. know just fooling around but it's been. really hard on her but she's she's been. very strong you know and uh uh but but. yeah but I think uh We've spoken about. it because the first time we went to the. hospital when we realized the first.

meeting thatos doctor said you know we. can keep this all private we'll give you. a private room and I was like. why why private you know he's like. people don't like to talk about it the. second person who met us as soon as we. came out the of the doctor consultation. was this guy who makes wigs the. manufacturers wig and he said you know. you need a wig uh you want it I was like. she was also like Why doesn't like you. know so. that's when we thought you know it's.

important to say you know to say it's. completely all right because it's not. like you know you get cancer out of. choice I mean this is it's just you know. you just are unlucky and and uh so. people have to accept it and just and. there is cure out there you just have to. react fast and and get yourself treated. and and make changes to your lifestyle. to you know post cancer is also a large. thing you know because cancer can recur. and so you need to make lifestyle. changes and uh and and then we thought. you know we should share like a because.

everyone just kept scaring us right. doesn't you know everyone just was it a. point where you felt like you are. like you felt like super scared like. okay her outlook has been amazing you. know there's treatment available. everything like was it a point like. where you just was like about to break. and you didn't show right no I I don't. think so I mean see thing is. uh you know we both sat together and we. spoke about worst case outcome comes. what happens and blah blah and and um so.

yeah so we like that's how I lead my. life know I'm in business that's when. there are issues you sit down think. about the worst case outcome factor it. in right and uh thankfully with SEMA you. know we kind of spotted the cancer early. so we knew that the worst case outcome. is limited to a certain thing right and. um um and yeah so then we decided to be. positive about it and. um Yeah. So it's it's been it's been a. huge learning though as in just to.

know that how everything around is like. know is is is just so fragile as in all. of these that we expect you know to be. not fragile is actually fragile and uh. and yeah so that's one of the reason I. mean this is not even it's even before. sea right as in like I I really am. surprised how little people care about. their health and what they eat and Um I. mean it's important to have fun but. but you know.

the what's happening to the world is. you're going to live longer because of. whatever medical advances right as in. our life expectancy is going to be. probably 80 by the time you know some of. us are older. but what is the quality of life you lead. at 80 will determine on how you take. take care of your health between 30 to. 50 60 and etc. Right? You know people. are again thinking very short term. It. doesn't know they're all thinking you. know what I'll care about my health when. I'm 50. It doesn't work like that.

because most of the time when you say. something which is controversial or. maybe people treat it as controversial. people have problem with it. There was. something around 100 cr salaries or. something like that. Why was it? It's okay. So I want to clear me if I'm. wrong because I'm getting only from the. third party perspective. Whatever I've. read a it's your company. You've built. it with people. It's bootstrap. You. don't owe anyone money. You don't have. like people guarding you. 100% profit are anyway yours. Right.

Right. So it doesn't matter whether you. take a salary, B salary or the full. percent of salary. Why was that a. problem? Like am I right? Like this it. shouldn't be a problem right because I. run a bootstrap business as well and. it's much smaller at scale but nobody. questions me if I take out like 20 crors. out of it or two crores or two lakhs. I don't owe anyone explanation. Why was that a problem? Yeah. No, I. think I think what happened was we. passed a bold resolution that allowed. you know me, Nikil and my wife to take.

100 cr salaries each. So it was never. taken out. It was a board resolution. Now the thing about board resolution is. it gets filed on MCA. and some journalist picked it up and I. think you know he just said you know. what people are taking this much salary. but we never took it you know I mean. even if you take it no it's no big deal. right it doesn't. see the thing is if you take that I'm. assuming like you would walk around like. five bodyguards all time [laughter]. like have your private jet ready no I. mean I don't I mean so the thing is you. know we've had larger outcomes from that.

it's not like we've not taken it we've. taken it and we've given it like most of. the money that we've taken has actually. gone back right either into startups or. into you know into nonprofits. So you. know it's it's because incrementally. personally you know if you look at me na. my wife etc my quality of life hasn't. really you know gone up in the last 2. three years you know so the thing is see. today in India right uh the way. typically entrepreneurs end up taking. profits out is I mean they don't take. profits but you know in a sense most of. the time they sell the stakes yeah right.

and then you know say suchin sold his. steak he made a billion dollars no I. mean there was a lot of eyeballs on him. at that point of time It doesn't because. he got $1 billion is in and it's not a. common thing. But the problem is he sold. his steak and made a billion dollars. He. didn't get a salary of a billion dollar. You know I know what the problem is. The. problem is in India everyone who gets. salary can relate to a salary. right it's like how can someone take a. salary of 100 crores is the question. right as in it just seems if I had taken.

the same as dividend I don't think. anyone would have a problem or if I had. taken it as you know some buyback or you. know I had sold a stake like a small. stake to someone. See if I if he had. sold stake in Zeroda and taken out say. even say 2,000 crores I don't think. people would have had a problem. The. problem I think was with this whole. salary you know as a as a connotation. and [snorts]. because salary is something everyone can. relate to right and and it almost you. know looking back actually I think it it. almost sounds ugly right in a country. where. 140 cr Indians make less than two lakh.

rupees a year right how can one guy take. 100 crores it just doesn't seem fair and. and and I think uh see the thing is. really as a as a founder in the business. uh you can you know if you're you LLP. partnership, you're a partner, you can. take money out anytime. If it's not a partnership, you're a. private limited company, you can either. take out a salary, you can take out a. dividend, or you can do a stock buyback, right? Or you [clears throat] can sell a. stake in a company, right? I mean, these. are the four ways in which, right? Salary is actually the most tax. inefficient way of taking it out,

right? But it's a it's a more easier, cleaner way to do it, right? And uh. looking back I think you know we should. have just done a stock buyback or do a. dividend because then even if we had. take money out uh no one really gets to. know right so um uh I mean yeah I think. like I said you know if I had an option. to run this business I would have done. it in stealth. Uh so there's no. attention uh for all of this. Um but uh.

but yeah so but unfortunately we are you. know a kind of a business where we are. forced to uh be visible and you know and. people are tracking what we do because. customers trust us with their money and. security. Okay. So I have last two questions and. then last two questions which I ask to. everyone like just two specific. questions for you and quickly we'll wrap. this up. First is you keep talking a lot. about uh building a mode cutting through. the competition right because what you. do is not unique like there are a lot of. businesses which are doing exactly what. you are doing and there are people who.

have deeper pockets with their VCs. coming in the business with you there. are people who have I don't know. something or the other which is better. than you or faster than you or anything. how do you make sure that you have a. moat right so how do you build that mode. one and how do you I mean I think Second. question will be answered by first only. Second is how do you make sure that you. are staying in a competitive market and. still winning it right because that's. one of the biggest things which most of. the people like people suffer they build.

a good business and then because it's a. good business hundred of people join try. to copy the same business and then the. pie gets smaller. right. yeah no I mean is it like a chase where. you have to innovate something enjoy the. benefits then innovate something again. and then go again is it like that. yeah no see thing is I think we are in a. world where there's not going to be any. status quo Right? Everyone's going to. get disrupted right. now. If a lot of times the disruption is. going to come from places that you don't. think where it'll come from. right you know like if I'm looking at.

our competators today and thinking. disruption can come here potentially. could come from something else you know. like I thought for a long time I thought. crypto is that. that you know I'm looking at stock. brokers and thinking competition is here. but maybe the disruption will really. happen at the crypto as an asset class. and you know takes over equity as an. asset class. So that way you know we no. like you know like for airline companies. you know WebEx is the biggest. competition right as in because if. business folks decide to you know meet. online they're not travelers so. [clears throat] right so it's like that. you know disruption typically can come.

from anywhere so not really uh I think. just where your you know eyes are set. and historically that's how people have. been disrupted you know leaders have. been disrupted not from within the. industry but it's typically has been. outside the industry you know and uh but. within the industry in our context Next. uh a few modes see the thing is I think. firstly uh the big mode we have is our. tech team right you know this is a team. which has been together. and you can't put money and buy such. teams right a team that's been together.

for like seven eight years and and built. a certain you know kind of understanding. of the business you know and gotten. better at the product you can't I mean. you can pay any amount of money and you. cannot create another land right as in. it doesn't work like. And you can't uh now all of them work. very well as a team given the. environment they work in. So even if. someone came and say found a way to take. all of them out, you give them a new. environment, can can that happen? Maybe.

not. I mean worked very well in. Barcelona, right? But it's [laughter]. not killing it here. So So it's like that. So it it you know. firstly it's a team. uh you know I talk. about tech but a lot but the the core. team of Serola which is you know uh the. top 60 70 of us we've been together from. day one in the sense no one has quit you. know we've all grown together we've. learned you know the business together. may maybe one or two have I one guy quit. to become poker player [laughter] so.

but uh uh but uh so we are together so. one is team you know so I think for. every business it's about uh finding a. way to get your teams to I At least the. good guys should stick I mean you can't. keep your bad guys in your team you need. to find them a quick way to get them out. right so but the good guys you need to. find a way to sit together because they. get better over time. okay. uh second is in the zera context I think. doing what is right for the customer. it's very easy to say everyone claims. they do but very hardly few do right you.

know if like I said earlier right if you. are an investing platform and you're. going to send a loan to your customer. you are doing the worst thing that you. can do to your customer right and uh. given the fact the world we live in I. know a competition will be forced to do. stupidity like that right and we are. seeing it happen you know so we seeing. right so so the competition is morphing. itself itself from being an investing. platform to being something else and see.

at the end of the day customer relate to. what you stand for as a business. right if you can't stick to what you. stand for it's a problem you know so I. And to be able to do it for long periods. of time is really is also very important. you know. So uh so while excess. liquidity excess funding can hurt. businesses in the short term but you. know if you if you think longerterm. horizon I think automatically laws start. making sense you know because I think a. lot of people just focus every quarter. every 6 months every one year but people.

who build businesses you know I'm. thinking next five years 10 years I'm. not thinking next quarter but as soon as. you start prioritizing short-term gains. over long-term you know vision not even. vision you know long-term hits you know. that dialog right and. whatever right so right so as soon as. you start doing it. you know a lot of these things people. wouldn't do it but everyone's under. pressure to do quarter on quarter growth. or yearon-year growth etc so everyone's.

thinking shortterm [snorts]. I think that is going to be a mode for. us u and uh see products need to evolve. as well right you cannot you know like. you know chalash had this beautiful post. he had just posted around uh you know. disengagement. I mean Kalash runs this. blog post called Zeroda. Tech you know. for anyone building tech I think you. know it's a must readad um around this. whole build fast fail fast philos. I. mean this is something which is. everyone's talking about we don't build. fast fail fast. right? I mean we take time to build it.

and make sure we build only things that. we think is required for the customer. right uh it's it's a very anti-. counter trend thing to say you know. which is don't build fast fail fast I. mean so what it means is that our. products are more evolved and and while. another platform might look and feel the. same I mean look the same but it not. feel the same. right as in there are a lot of Chinese. copies of Tesla but it's not like you. know So it's uh so yeah I think I know.

but eventually some you know I'm sure. competitors will catch up and so we'll. have to constantly keep innovating you. know so like the the big project at. Zeroda right now is how do we help. customers do better with their money. right. um. you know I mean this is really the. reason why we started Zeroda right as in. when I started you know we are like you. know how do we get traders to do better. and then it was like how you know if. you're my customer yes the platform. could be nice blah blah blah but. eventually you want to be doing better. than your money, right? As in, you know,

only that's I mean, that's my purpose in. life, right? I want all my customers to. do better with their money and. yeah, we, you know, we haven't done a great. job at it. We've built an amazing. education platform. We built amazing. products, you know, we partnered with. the right startups, you know, built an. ecosystem of sorts, but we still haven't. done enough in terms of helping people. do better with their money. And u uh so, you know, we're working on this, it's. been live for a while, you know, we call. this initiative as nudge. Um so. essentially think of it this way right. say you know you're a person who's.

earning 50,000 rupees salary. you go to Amazon you see an iPhone worth. say two lakh rupees right you try to buy. it you don't have the money so you say. Amazon says you know what here's a loan. right EMI of 20,000 rupees a month buy. iPhone but what if Amazon at that time. said dude this iPhone is not the right. product for you 50,000 rupees you. shouldn't be freaking buying a notaky. phone you should maybe you know buy a. 10,000 rupee phone right what if Amazon.

could do it. right that's really what we're building. as nudge right is that you know every. time a customer is overtrading or he's. you know buying stuff he shouldn't be. buying we're trying to you know not be. very paternalistic not you know not be. like your you know father mother who. didn't give you option I mean can we. subtly you know like your friend or your. nudge it nudge you know can you tell him. to you know are you smoking the right. stuff [laughter]. like like while I'm like about to make. that trade he's like.

you send me a notification. it's not it's a not a notification so. the way it works is uh so for example. you know when this whole uh pandemic. happened the first wave of customers. they were buying a lot of penny stocks. right stocks which are worth between 0. to 10 rupees have no real business you. know I mean these are really scammy. stocks right as in. so if you come on zeroda today and and. say you want to buy a penny stock. so in the order flow itself Now when you. when you press a buy button the next. screen really says dude do you know this.

this stock and lose all your money. right now can you know the customer can. still override it you'll say oh I know. dude I I'll still buy. but we don't building friction yeah we. and the thing what we realized is you. know our penny stock trading volumes as. a percentage of liquidity volumes was. like 70%. right? Post that much. It. means people actually got scared and. moved away and we've saved a lot of. money for people you know. So. u so yeah so now the thing is how many. of a competition can do something like.

this. right and uh how many of them have. like how many people in the business. world actually have these kind of balls. to say no to a good coming business. Yeah. I mean it's like it's very diff. I'm sorry if I come out very strong but. it's true like not many people would. lose out on the business. You lost like. 70% of the business which you could have. gotten and you would have made money on. that. Yeah. No, but but like I said, it's see. the thing is it's not just this isn't.

just us being it's also it's also I. think business-wise a smart thing to do. right because if your customer. you know makes money or he doesn't lose. as much money he's going to be in the. game for a long period of time instead. of making 1,000 rupees in one year. you'll make 1,000 rupees over five years. right but if he's your customer of. thousand rupees for five years he will. talk about you to 10 other friends right. you'll be able to acquire customers. much faster, right? But if you that's the thing, right? If your perspective of a business.

is quarter on quarter, you want to make. that thousand rupees quickly from this. customer. So you will do whatever to get. him to trade more. But if your perspective is, you know. what, I want this customer to be a. customer for a long period of time. So it's actually business-wise the smart. thing to do, right? But provided your. horizons are longer and not shorter, you. know. So. it's going to be very unfair for me to. not ask this question. this how to make. money is like it's very simple but a.

very different question because. everybody has like a different. philosophy to it. So how do you think I. I don't think there's any any. how to make like a lot of money like. shitloads of money. [laughter]. There is there is no answer. I mean if. someone's claiming that he's got an. answer he was freaking lying you know. So I don't think you can really control. the outcomes right. So like we started. off talking right I think it's about. finding that one thing that you like. doing. and give it all right and u uh it's. important to give it all right because.

you know you half. and what do you mean by give it all. let's say. like you know do learn everything about. it meet every person in this game try to. understand give like 247. I mean meeting I mean yeah as in. whatever it takes as in you know speak. eventually if someone takes a route of. building a business you know if you want. to make large amounts of money you need. to build a You know it's very tough to. do it you know being employed under. someone unless you know you are the. first employee of Apple or something. So. right uh. you're going top 10 employees of some.

Apple company. That's how Apple, right? So it's uh u yeah so it's. uh so yes if you're building a business. you need to you know all that we spoke. about right you know having a mode and. not caring about your customer and. listening to your customer and and being. you know an agile business. You know the. problem today is a lot of startups while. they claim they're agile they aren't. really agile you know so they really as. a as a startup your biggest edge on your. competition is how quick you can adapt.

right now if you become slow to adapt. you're as good as an incumbent you know. as in you know so people lose their. agility very quickly as a startup you. know and so it's important to be agile. you know and and experiment as in it's. it's quite crazy how many experiments. we've done as a as in like we're. constantly. doing stuff to figure what people think. and you know the odds of finding when. you do these experiments the odd of odds. of finding something improves right if. you want to stick to that only one thing. you know and you're you're not open to.

experiment it's very tough to find newer. ways to grow the business you know so. so yeah so I think I think uh all of. this and if you uh if you get. lucky uh you know luck smiles and you. get lucky to pick the right industry uh. and you are at the right place right. time and if enough people want to get. you you know want you to get lucky in. life you know I've had this whole. philosophy around do one of the ways to.

improve your chance of getting lucky in. life is have enough people want you to. get lucky in life right so if you're. doing what's right for your customers. your customers intrinsically some way. want you to get lucky if you're doing. what's right for your team members. intrinsically they want you to do and if. you're going to short chain these guys I. mean. the chance of you getting lucky reduces. in life you know so so yeah so if if you. can do a bunch of these things and you. get lucky you can make large outcomes. so is there any industry one word answer.

any industry where you feel like it's. going to be the next big industry of. opportunities in India apart from. fintech of course that's the yeah no I. mean. if not fintech what would you be doing. so now I think I personally think now. this whole climate. uh you know people eventually will wake. up one day to say, you know what, dude, this stuff is real. Because today, you. know, we're all in denial in some way, saying, you know, somehow this will get. automatically fake or you know, it'll. take, you know, much longer to affect. us,

right? But but we're already seeing, you. know, the heat waves, you know, this. year, you know, the crop damage because. of these torrential rains in South. India. Uh so eventually it's going to hurt the. economy and and that's when people will. wake up and say, you know what, we need. to find a fix, right? um it you know and. and I think people working around. solving I it's a it's a really large. problem I don't think you know it's. there's it's solvable like you know and. but but I think people working on you.

know some of the things that are at. least attempting to solve for some of. these problems. if the right place right time happens. you know I think I think the next. trillion dollar business would probably. come from climate change. because a big it's a very big problem to. solve TAM is unlimited. It is I mean it. is um like I said you know it's just so. vast the I mean there's so many problems. to solve for. like you know we are one of the startups. that we are supporting you know this. company called zero circuit.

they're turning seaweed into plastic. right uh like a brilliant right the. seaweed also generates uh you know this. a farmed seaweed you know so it also. creates opportunity for farmers so uh. you know now the question is can they. scale large enough where the cost of the. plastic made of seaweed is lesser than. know your traditional plastic right. because. uh so stuff like that you know uh there. is there are there are a lot of. opportunities around climate it's just. and I think not enough people are.

looking at it. Yeah that's amazing. Thanks for the time you've given us. Thank you so much. No pleasure. Thank. [music]. [music]. [music].