Andrew Huberman: Become Mentally Dangerous With These Daily Habits | FO556 Raj Shamani

the person that can turn their mind off. in the final hour of their day and get. the better, deeper sleep, I'm going to. put all my money on that person. >> How turn off. >> The next time you have trouble asleep or. getting back to sleep, keeping your eyes. closed, slowly move your eyes to one. side, then to the other side. Then. you're going to move your eyes. counterclockwise, then clockwise. Then. kind of look towards the tip of your. nose. You're not crossing your eyes, and. then exhale. Now, when you do that, you. disrupt the propriceptive circuits. Propriception is the knowledge of where. your limbs are in space. To fall asleep,

you need to forget your body position. This is the first critical step in. falling asleep that nobody talks about. >> That really works. >> It really works. Andrew Huberman, professor and neuroscientists at. Stanford and host of Hubberman Lab, one. of the biggest and most influential. science podcasts in the world. This is a. masterclass in training your brain to. become sharper, stronger, and harder to. stop. If I give you a 25year-old. someone, how can they have this. unbreakable, unshakable mindset, like an.

elite performer mindset that they will. never collapse under pressure? >> I've never really discussed this on the. podcast. If I only had 5 minutes to talk. to somebody, [music] I would say, look, this is the best thing you can do for. your health and wellbeing and. performance. High morning cortisol, low. nighttime cortisol. Cortisol's main job. is to deploy glucose and lipids from. areas in your body that give you energy. It's an energy deploying hormone. [music] So, how do we do this? The best. way to spike that morning cortisol is to. get bright light in your eyes within the. first 30 to 60 minutes of your day.

Let's keep in mind, you can drink some. water during this [music] time. You can. drink your morning tea or coffee if you. like. If you can exercise in that first. hour, [music] great. But this simple. behavior is going to boost your morning. cortisol levels. This is the key to. long-term resilience and becoming, as. you call it, dangerous. If there are two. people, one sees that risk and jumps. The another thinks about it but then. freezes. What happens in the brain of. that person who's freezing and not. taking the risk? They're imagining how. great it could go. We think they're. imagining how terrible it could go. But.

what causes us to choke is so much is at. stake. If I can't do this, I can't do. anything. >> Can you build courage? >> Absolutely. [music] Absolutely. Incremental. You get people to their. edge of agitation and you let them just. live there. >> When have you felt the most powerless in. your life? Well, that's a great question. You ask. hard questions, my friend. Um, >> I have a small favor to ask you. I need. you to subscribe to our channel. The.

more subscribers we have, the better and. bigger guests we can bring and provide. you more value through these. conversations. And also, the full audio. experience of the show is available on. Spotify where you can follow us and. stream and listen to all our episodes. Welcome on our show, Andrew Hooperman. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you. It's it's an honor to have. you here. >> Oh, wow. Thank you. Well, delighted to. be here.

>> So, tell me further, if someone's. watching you for the first time and they. have never heard or seen you or they. have no clue who you are, how would you. explain them what you do and why they. should watch this podcast? >> Okay. Uh, two sentences of history. Uh. just to orient people, I'm 50 year old. 50 years old. Um I spent nearly three. decades as a neuroscientist. Um I'm. still a tenure professor at Stanford. School of Medicine. I now teach uh.

neuroscience um to medical students and. um do some other teaching as well. Until. very recently, I ran a research. laboratory. So that was really my life. from about age 19 until fairly recently. Um, so studying how the brain wires up. during development, how it can change. so-called neuroplasticity and learning, also some interest in neural. regeneration and diseases of the eye and. of the nervous system. Um, so that's my. my academic grounding and my hands-on.

experience. >> Um, I've had a long-standing interest in. health and fitness. um both running, resistance training, bit of martial. arts, a number of different things um. that I've been very consistent with for. the last 35 years. So, while I'm not a. certified expert trainer or anything of. that sort, I've I like to think I've. tried many of the things that do and. don't work. And um I have thoughts both. about the science around those and what. I've found works best for me and that I.

think could be of value to people. In. 2021, I decided to start a podcast. called Huberman Lab. Turns out I also. had Huberman Lab at Stanford School of. Medicine, but Huberman Lab podcast, which is myself and a few other guys um. who uh put cameras in front of me and I. started talking about how the brain. wires up, how you can change it, how. sleep works, how you can optimize it. um. mental health uh modern treatments for. mental health issues, everything from.

depression to OCD to uh anorexia, covering the scientific literature and. offering what I call protocols um which. are um scripted ways to improve. something or optimize something or. reduce a pain point. Um using behavioral. tools, some things you do, behavioral. tools, some things you avoid. Um, we do. talk about nutrition, supplementation, and prescription drugs as well. So, I. cover all of it. So, I'm happy to talk. about peptides, both of the conventional.

and unconventional kind. I'm happy to. talk about hormone therapies. I'm happy. to talk about behavioral tools. So, the. podcast encompasses all of that. And. I've largely done solos where I talk. about these things sort of university. lecture style. Um, but I also host. expert guests in these areas because my. network of science and um medical doctor. scientists, excuse me, and medical. doctors is pretty vast and I know some. of the the best in the world. I don't. know all of them, but I I'm very blessed. to know uh many of them and they have. incredible knowledge that I feel the the.

world should have. So, I think that's. probably how you found me. That's why. I'm here. And and my real love in life. is learning and teaching. >> things that I believe can be useful to. people. >> Perfect. That makes two of us. [laughter]. >> Yeah, we share a kinship in that. Absolutely. >> So based on everything that you've. learned, experimented, watch it fail, uh. you know, acquired knowledge from other. people on and your own experiments and. everything, right? I I want to know if I.

give you a 25 year old someone, okay, right now today, and your only job is to. make them mentally dangerous in next 10. years. mentally dangerous. >> Dangerous. Like. >> could you define dangerous? >> Like how do you how can they have this. unbreakable, unshakable mindset like an. elite performer mindset that they can. they will never collapse under pressure. like someone who can handle everything. in their life and they can choose and. pinpoint what to do and then be able to.

do that. Because here's the problem. What I feel. a lot of young people like me, we watch. uh people like you, we understand and. learn everything from you. And then half. of the things we are like Monday we're. excited when we watch you and then by. Thursday we're done. Like nothing works. out. We don't change our lives very. easily, right? A lot of people don't do. that. So if I give you someone like this. 20-year-old right now and your job is to. make them me mentally extraordinary or.

mentally dangerous in next 10 years. where would you begin? >> It's a great question. Um so my answer. is at first going to sound a little um. basic. >> but I think it's very important to. understand the principles behind what. I'm going to say as opposed to just the. specifics. In fact, this is a broader. theme I believe people should take to. any discussion about health or. performance, which is there going to be. many many protocols. Do this, do it this. way, do it then, don't do it that way,

don't do it then. But the real question. is what are the principles that are. anchoring those statements? Why do I say. this? Well, because ultimately new. protocols will come along, new peptides. will come along, new podcasters will. come along. And the most important. thing, the most important thing is to be. able to place what you hear into a. framework of, okay, that makes sense. There's a mechanism to support that or. look, we don't have any knowledge of how. that would work, but I'll try it and see. if it works, provided it's safe, and so.

on. The most important thing for this. 25-year-old hypothetical person to do is. to understand that there are a few. non-negotiables in their physiology and. psychology that are directly linked that. they have to obey as often as possible. Notice I didn't say every single day, but as often as possible in order to get. the most out of their life. >> What What are those? Well, as weird as. it may sound, the most important thing. to do is to ensure, and there are ways.

to do that we can talk about in a. moment, to ensure that you have high. morning cortisol levels, >> the so-called stress hormone, which is. not a stress hormone. We'll talk about. why it's involved in stress, but. cortisol is involved in much, much more. You want to take steps, simple steps. that I'll describe to amplify your. morning cortisol in the first hour or. two of your day. and to make sure that. in the last hour or so of your day, most. days, your cortisol is low. Now, why?

What? What? What in the world? Like, okay, but if you were going to build a. human machine, okay, and I'm not talking. about psychology now, but you wanted to. build a human machine. And actually, let's make it a happy. >> quote unquote dangerous machine, you. would say, get that morning cortisol. peak as as high as you can. Get your. nighttime, last hour before sleep. cortisol level as low as you can. Why? When you do that, it sets this person up. to have vastly higher levels of daytime.

energy, focus, ability to learn, resilience to stress when stress comes. along, and. ease in falling to sleep, deep sleep, rapid eye movement sleep. These are the. things of repair of the body, repair of. the mind, consolidating learning, removing the emotional load of previous. day experiences that might have been, you know, difficult or stressful, taking. off the emotional load so they can go. into the next day and they can continue. to show up for their family, their work,

their health, and so on and so forth. It. also turns out this pattern of high. morning cortisol, low nighttime cortisol. is the pattern that men, women, people. of all ages should have to optimize. their immune system function. So, we're. talking about getting sick less and on. and on and on. In fact, I've never. really discussed this on the podcast, but if I only had 5 minutes to talk to. somebody, I would say, "Look, this is. the best thing you can do for your.

health and well-being and performance.". high morning cortisol, low nighttime. cortisol. So, how how did we do this? People are probably immediately. wondering. Um, before I answer, I'll. just add one additional fact. Most. people have heard of melatonin, this. hormone that we secrete at night in. darkness that light suppresses. It helps. us fall and stay asleep. Most people don't realize that in order. to get sufficient melatonin release, you. need limited light exposure to your. eyes. So, that's why it's good to dim. dim dim the lights. You also want your.

body temperature cooling. Your core body. temperature going down is what brings. melatonin up. Cortisol and melatonin are. on opposite cycles. >> High cortisol inhibits melatonin. indirectly, but it does it. So, if your. morning cortisol is high, your morning. melatonin from the night before will be. lower, more alertness. If your nighttime. cortisol is low, your melatonin peak can. go higher. many issues related to. falling and staying asleep become. trivial under those conditions. They.

just kind of disappear. So, we should. ask ourselves, what are the things to do. to boost our morning cortisol levels? And notice I'm saying morning, I'm not. saying 6:00 a.m. because one thing that. is very important is given the. flexibility, some people really do best. waking up between 8 and 10:00 a.m. and. going to sleep later. Some people do. best waking up between 5 and 7 a.m. and. going to bed earlier. And some people. are kind of someplace in the middle. Like for you for instance, what is your. if you could control everything about.

your sleepwake schedule, what time would. you go to sleep? >> Like two, >> right? Yeah. >> Like 1 or 2. >> And what time would you wake up? >> 9 10. >> Great. So let's call 10. 10 a.m. is your. morning. 6:30 a.m. is my morning. That. doesn't make me a better or worse. person. Doesn't make you a better or. worse person. We're just different. But. when I say morning, I'm not giving a. clock time. I'm giving a within the. first hour or two of waking. Okay. All. right. How do you boost your morning. cortisol? We're building this ultra. dangerous person. >> Okay. >> Great.

>> But be before we actually build this, why did you start with morning and not. the night before? >> It's a good question, but the answer is. that this peak in cortisol cause because. it's on a what's called a negative. feedback loop. it actually inhibits. itself so that once you create that. peak, it ensures that the afternoon and. evening cortisol is low. And I'll. explain why that is in in a few minutes. if that's okay. Um, so getting that. morning peak going, it's like a. wavefront that starts the 24-hour cycle.

>> Okay. Okay. So, let's assume you go to. sleep anywhere from 6 to 8 hours the. night before. >> Okay. Um when you are in your deep deep. sleep, so two or three hours into your. sleep, your cortisol is at its very. lowest just naturally. Okay, your cortisol intrinsically with no. input from the world starts to climb in. the hours afterwards slowly slowly and. then faster and faster and faster. So.

that in the third uh phase of your. sleep, if we just divide your sleep into. three blocks, in that last third, your. cortisol is rising very fast and so is. your body temperature and then at some. point you wake up. Now it could be. because of an alarm clock. It could be. because you wake up naturally. That is. literally called the cortisol awakening. response and it is the reason you wake. up. So when people say cortisol is a. stress hormone, you don't want your. cortisol too high. That's true for the. evening and night time. It's not true.

for your morning. You want your cortisol. basically spiking first thing in the. morning. So you get up, cortisol is now. elevated. Cortisol's main job is not to. deal with stress. That's just one of its. jobs. Its main job is to deploy glucose. and lipids from areas in your body that. give you energy. It's an energy. deploying hormone. >> Okay. >> Okay. So that cortisol peak is rising. very very fast. The best way to spike.

that morning cortisol is to get bright. light in your eyes within the first 30. to 60 minutes of your day. In fact, you. have a unique opportunity at that time. to spike your cortisol up to 50% 50. Now, there's two ways to do it. The best. way to do it is to go outside, take off. any brimmed hat you might have or. sunglasses. Eyeglasses and contacts are fine. Look. in the direction of the sun. Now, you. wake up later than I do. So, when I wake. up, the sun is just coming across the. horizon. That's great. If it's higher in. the sky, that's fine, too. Never look at.

the sun um in any way that that makes it. too bright to look out. You blink, in. other words, to protect your eyes. But. you can squint. You can look a little. bit off and away from the sun. But that. bright light from the sun is full. spectrum. It includes the short. wavelength, medium wavelengths, and long. wavelengths that are optimal for getting. this cortisol peak. In fact, if you do that, you'll get a. big peak in cortisol within 5 to 10. minutes. On cloudy days, on overcast. days, it's especially important to do. that because you're going to likely be.

spending more time indoors on overcast. days. Okay? Ideally, 5 minutes or 10. minutes. Keep in mind, you can drink. some water during this time. You can. drink your morning tea or coffee if you. like. You can do other things that, believe it or not, hydration boosts. cortisol. Caffeine further boosts. cortisol. If you can exercise in that. first hour, great. Most people don't. jump right into exercise, but this. simple behavior is going to boost your. morning cortisol levels. That essentially establishes the the. relationship between cortisol,

melatonin, and your circadian clock. So. the next day, your morning cortisol will. start to rise in anticipation of this. peak. It's becomes what we call. entrained. So I'm listing off some. protocols. Morning sunlight, but it. takes 5 10 minutes. and you hydrate and. you drink some caffeine, maybe you move. your body a little bit, take a walk, some jumping jacks or something light. like that. You can bring uh your spouse. or your kids or whatever and you can. just enjoy that time. Try not to look at. your phone during this time. Do not stay. in bed and look at your phone. Okay, this has also a forcing function on not.

doing certain things. Now, if you are able to get some. physical exercise in this hypothetical. situation, I'd take this 25-year-old and. I'd say, "Listen, I know you don't like. to work out first thing in the morning, but you're going to either do some. cardiovascular training or some. resistance training, [snorts] one or the. other for six days a week. One day a. week, you can get complete rest. Okay? And I can explain later what the optimal. protocol for uh for excuse me for. exercise I believe is for the typical.

person wanting to be strong and have. endurance and and build resilience as. well brain plasticity and so on. Okay. The long and short of this is if. somebody were to do that in the first. hour to two hours of the day. the cortisol then starts to drop. gradually around let's say about four or. five hours after they've been awake. drops drop just naturally it just drops. Now let's say you get a disturbing text. a you've got a deadline you're stressed. cortisol will get deployed but the peak.

in cortisol will be very brief. Okay. Now, as that person heads into the. evening, probably still working. We'll. talk about this. Maybe some bright. lights. You can't control the. environment. You you are now buffered. against some of that. You're protected. And then at night, in the final hour. before sleep, it's dim the lights. Obviously, avoid caffeine in the final 8. hours before sleep. Most days, I'm. drinking a little caffeine now cuz I got. up very early today and it's late in the. day now, but I can have a little bit. That's me. Some people might not be able.

to. You want to really emphasize. lowering your cortisol. Long exhale. breathing is great if you find yourself. too stressed and you're kind of getting. ready for bed. Why long exhale. breathing? There's so much has been made. of breath work and meditation. But just. to encapsulate all of breath work which. you know I long before it came to the. United States in scientific form people. in India have been doing breath work of. various forms. So I want to acknowledge. that. But there's something called. respiratory sinus arrhythmia, which is. just a fancy term for when you inhale.

with vigor and you extend your inhales, it speeds your heart rate up. Why? Because the diaphragm moves down, the. heart gets a little bit bigger in. volume. Blood within the heart moves a. little more slowly and the nervous. system sends a signal to speed the heart. rate up every inhale. When you exhale, especially if you deliberately extend. the exhale, because the diaphragm moves. up, the heart gets a little bit more. compact or smaller in volume. Blood in.

there moves more quickly in that smaller. volume. And the vagus nerve, which. connects the body and brain in both. direction, sends a signal to the heart. to slow your heart rate down. This is. the basis of so-called HRV, heart rate. variability. for people wearing an Aura. or a Whoop or using an eightlee or any. other device and you say high HRV is. good, right? What is high HRV? High HRV. is your parasympathetic nervous system, this relaxing arm of the of your. autonomic nervous system hitting the. brakes on your heart rate. [sighs].

If you want a higher HRV, you can. exercise. You know, another great way to. increase your HRV, do five extended. exhales during your day. Just anytime. you just. You're slowing your heart rate down in. your sleep. Your heart rate, your HIV. will be HRV will be higher. Most people. don't realize it. Significantly higher. You're teaching your nervous system to. slow your heart rate down just by five. exhales in a day. >> or three or one long one before sleep.

[sighs]. When you do an extended deliberate. exhale, you slow your heart rate down. You lower your cortisol levels. Takes a. few minutes to lower your cortisol. levels. and you calm yourself down. When. you hold your breath or you move about. your day and you're inhaling [snorts] a. lot and you're on average you're. inhaling more vigorously than your. exhales, your heart rate's going to be. climbing up. So throughout the day your. heart rate's doing this, it's doing. this. HRV, if you think, well, that's. weird. Why would we want our heart rate. variable? Shouldn't we want it nice and.

even? No, no, no, no. Because the HRV. reflects the pumping of the brake on. your on your stress system. Okay? So in. that final hour, you are ideally you're. not drinking too many fluids cuz you'll. wake up. But if you're a little thirsty, drink some fluids. No big deal. You're. avoiding caffeine. You're dimming the. lights. Why dimming the lights? Because. light hits a specialized set of neurons. in the eye called the intrinsically. photosensitive melanops and retinal. ganglion cells. Okay? Those cells. connect directly to a little region over. your hypothalamus which is your.

circadian clock which then connects to. another nucleus in your hypo. hypothalamus and so on and so forth and. then inhibits the release of melatonin. from your pineal gland. All this can be. made very simple viewing bright light. ideally from sunlight in the first hour. of the day spikes your cortisol through. a similar mechanis circuit with a little. twist and in the evening bright light. will inhibit melatonin. So, bright mornings and days, dim nights. or dark nights, that's the ideal.

situation. And we can really flush this. out even more. But I should say if you. don't have access to sunlight for some. reason, you would do well to um most. people do well to purchase a 10,000 lux. artificial light. I have one when I. travel that's about the size of a. tablet. Um it looks a bit like the. lights in this room. That very bright. light is sufficient to boost your. morning cortisol. Sunlight is better. because it's full spectrum, but. sometimes I don't have access to one. But I'm the guy on the plane looking at.

that light for a few minutes each. morning. I have one in my home even. though I do go outside. So when I wake. up and use the bathroom, I have one in. my bathroom. I have one in the kitchen. So I'm making my morning coffee or tea. I have it there. And so I'm getting. blasted with bright light early in the. day. And then at night, I'm either in. dim light or I generally don't use. candle light because I worry about. burning things down, you know, if I fall. asleep with a candles down. But I. everything's dimmed way way down. Okay, now this sounds extreme,

>> but we're really talking about 5 to 10. minutes in the morning, things you would. do anyway, >> right? Hydrate, caffeine, most likely, >> exercise, ideally that takes a bit. longer. And then at night, things that. you need to turn off the lights at some. point. >> You need to bring your level of. activation down. Learning to turn your. mind off. This is the key to long-term. resilience and becoming, as you call it, dangerous. If you are somebody who can. push, push push on the gas pedal, but. you don't know how to turn your mind.

off. Let's make it competitive. This will get. people going. Give me two people. >> Both can work very very hard, vote, both. extremely committed to their goals and. both have perfect circumstances in terms. of access to to food and exercise and. all the things. The person that can turn. their mind off in the final hour of. their day and get the better, deeper. sleep, I'm gonna put all my money on. that person within 5 to 10 years, far.

surpassing the other. How to turn off if. someone super competitive is already. feeling like they've lost in some way. because the internet has made them. believe that they've lost it already, right? So, they're in the hyper. competitive mode. They just don't know. how to turn off. M. >> how can somebody turn off and be. >> and feel less restless? >> Yeah, this is a great question and and. it's going to take us a little bit in. the in the uh direction of psychology. >> Um so I just want to make sure before we.

move on that I've closed the hatch on. boost your morning cortisol by sunlight. or 10,000 lux artificial light. >> Hydrate. Listen, do this every morning. But if you wake up on a plane and you. don't happen to have this 10,000 lux. light, open the window. If you can't do. that, you're you're going to be fine. You'll you'll live a day, you know. You'll live a day. You'll, you know, so. do the other things. Hydrate, drink some. caffeine. Like I don't you don't want to. burn extra energy on the neuroticism of. trying to get everything right. >> That's making you weak, right? You need. and I look at every opportunity.

to build resilience. This like like I we. were saying before we started recording, I you know, yesterday I had far less. sleep than I normally get. I feel great. today. I have a practice for that which. I can talk about recovering mental and. physical vigor. But I really wanted to. see my best childhood friend who's a. neurosurgeon and neuroscientist do a. neurosurgery and be there and also. recorded yesterday and I very much. wanted to be here and it meant flying. yesterday and the flight was delayed. So. instead of getting angry about the. flight being delayed, I always ask.

myself one of two questions. Do I. completely relax or do I continue to. work? What I don't do is any in between. I am perfectly fine just sitting there. completely relaxing. Yes, let yourself. scroll social media for a short period. of time. Let yourself watch a movie, socialize, text with friends, call your. mother. You know, I'm on my mother, so. call me more. So, but don't do a hybrid. of the two or really focus in and get. some work done. At the airport. yesterday, I decided I'd had a long day.

I knew that today was going to be a long. but exciting one. Decided to just get. complete rest. on the flight into San. Francisco. I took a brief nap, got to my. hotel, got things settled, and I could. feel my my mind going towards h I'm. going to be tomorrow is going to what. good does that do? And you always should. be asking the question, is this in the left column or the right. column? And I'll explain what that. means. A guy named Andy Stump, he's a a. former what we call tier one SEAL team. operator. He has a podcast called.

Clearing Hot. Um he's super impressive. guy from his work in the SEAL teams and. he went on to break two world records. doing other difficult dangerous things. but he has this exercise that he shared. with me which I do which is you take out. a sheet of paper you do this about once. a month and you write down in the left. column all the things that concern you. what people think of me the what I see. I'm worries everything you put all that. in the left column in the right column. you put all the things that you can. actually control what can you do.

exercise, hydrate, sleep, practice. turning your brain off, call your. mother, you know, all the things that. and what you realize is that you really. don't have any control over the things. in the left column. And we all know. this, but this exercise, it's so valuable. I'm so glad Andy. taught it to me. He I read it about it. first in his book Drown, which is an. excellent book, but then he described it. to me directly. for the month afterwards. You notice. when things are in the left column or.

the right column. So last night I was. thinking, oh god, like if I even thought. because this is the way the mind goes. H. someone sets off a fire alarm or. someone's loud in the hotel, I'm going. to get even le. I'm like, can I control. that? No, I can't control it. You notice. how crazy the mind is with all these. concerns and how few of those concerns. you can actually impact. So that's the. main way you do it. And every. opportunity to stress is an opportunity. to practice stress resilience. Every. opportunity uh to stress is an.

opportunity to let go of some component. These opportunities come all day long. You know, you don't have to be David. Gogggins to be in the pressure test all. day long. We are all in the pressure. test. And even just keeping your mind in. that right column. So I actually around. our podcast studio and with my friends. we we're sort of have this saying now. like that's a left column issue like. don't like and and so it becomes this. question I think it varies culturally do. you talk about it or does that build it.

>> maybe talking about things allows you to. expune it to delete it I think it builds. it stay in the right column and when. your mind starts drifting into the left. column great that's a great opportunity. to practice getting your mind back over. into the right hand column how do you do. that you Think about literal actions. You get extremely present. I can take a. sip of water. Might sound trivial. I can. smell what the air is like in here. Feels good. It's so quiet in here. I. really like the background quiet of this. place. I've enjoyed meeting you. I.

learned about some new neuroch already. based on the the devices on your temple. Like you can really get present and. suddenly because of this is comes from. my training as a neuroscientist. The. brain works in what are called dynamic. attractor states which I is not a way of. trying to sound academic or fancy. Think. of your thoughts and your emotions as a. ball bearing on a flat surface. But as. you think more about something, that. surface starts to become concave. And as. you learn more about it and you go into. it and you think about it, it becomes a. trench. And now that ball bearing is.

locked in that trench. And typically it. takes something very robust like. calling a friend and them saying, "What. are you doing?" or getting a good. night's sleep or exercise or some great. event to knock that ball bearing back. onto its flat surface again. But you are. in charge of your mind. And you know, at. 50 years old, I finally realized that. it's possible to control one's thoughts. It it really is. You can you can learn. to steer your thoughts. You can't.

eliminate thoughts, but you can take. your mind to where it needs to go. And. there opportunities all day long to. practice this. Right before I came in. here, I went in the bathroom. Yes, I use. the bathroom. And I have a practice of. prayer. Right before I do or go on any. podcast, I ask for clarity. I ask for. the opportunity to share knowledge that. I hope will be useful to people. I offer. up the opportunity for new unexpected. things to come through. I did I did. that. I do it every single time because.

I take you and I take this very. seriously, right? People are giving us. their time. I'm not a person who. neurotically, you know, controls every. aspect of of my life, but I take every. opportunity I can to make my life better. because in this case, I like to think. that us having a a richer conversation. will benefit people more. So, learn to. turn it off. But that comes from. practice and you're getting micro reps. all day long. The more stress, the more.

opportunity. The more stress, the more. opportunity. Now, in order to learn to. fall asleep at night, high morning. cortisol. Don't drink caffeine too late. in the day. Get exercise at some point, ideally in the first half of your day, but if you have to do it in the evening, do it in the evening. But I am a huge. huge believer, practitioner and fan of a. practice that originated in India, which. is called yoga nidra. This, in addition. to the morning high and nighttime low. cortisol, is in my mind the most.

powerful tool that we can cultivate. because it teaches you to turn off. thinking and planning and allows you to. learn how to get into pure sensation. It. sounds so squishy, but I'll tell you, no. drug will do this, at least not in a. healthy way. Any drug that takes you out. of thinking and planning and just into. pure sensation, that drug is going to. rebound you into a rough place when you. come out of it. Yoga nidra and in. fairness I you know I a few years back I. started calling it non-sleep deep rest.

that was not this is a great opportunity. to talk to your audience uh who may know. that you know some people were critical. of that decision. The reason for that is. I wanted people to understand the real. value of this practice and I always make. the effort to credit yoga nidra as the. the origin of it. I take no credit for. this practice but in quote unquote the. west such a silly term right but in the. west there's there's this assumption. people hear yoga and they think movement. and then a lot of people who they think.

I don't want to do yoga I don't which is. just their own limitation but yoga nidra. involves what it involves lying or. sitting down you know this I'm sure long. exhale breathing slowing the heart rate. down deliberately. noticing My mind is in a mode of. thinking and doing and planning. I'm. going to move it into pure sensation. Just focus on what I hear, what I feel. This is so critical. This is the first. and most basic step in what I call.

turning your mind off. It's turning off. planning and thinking and doing. And. it's a skill. You do this for 10, 20, or. 30 minutes one, three, or seven days a. week. And across a couple of years, you. get very good at it. So, I started it in. 2017 and I thought to myself, this is. remarkable. I can fall asleep more. easily if I wake up in the middle of the. night. I know how to turn my mind off. >> Do that again. >> I do it again for 10 minutes. There's. also an eye movement trick that you can. do. You want to hear something really.

wacky? So, there's a paper published a. few years ago where they developed this. giant bed that rocks back and forth and. people fall asleep very quickly. Hm. Okay. Well, I don't have a rocking bed. You don't have a rocking bed. it's not. very practical. There's also a paper. published in um a really fine journal. showing that there's a particular rate. of walking and swaying that parents. naturally find that puts their baby to. sleep and it matches the same rocking. speed, right? It's a very slow back and. forth rocking. Say, okay, this is. age-old wisdom, but what does this do?

You would think it was the physical. sensation and in some sense it is but. turns out and this is the basis of some. new technologies that I'm not a part of. but I've had the opportunity to try of. eye masks that can induce sleep. The. next time you have trouble falling. asleep or getting back to sleep. Keeping. your eyes closed slowly move your eyes. to one side then to the other side. Then you're going to move your eyes. counterclockwise. I told you it would be. kind of crazy. Then clockwise. Then kind. of look towards the tip of your nose.

You're not crossing your eyes. and then. exhale. Now when you do that because. there is a relationship between the eyes. and your cerebellum this area of your. brain that is primitive area of your. brain that controls balance. you disrupt the what we call. proprioceptive circuits. Proprioception. is the knowledge of where your limbs are. in space. To fall asleep you need to. forget your body position. This is the. first critical step in falling asleep. that nobody talks about. And so now.

there's some really interesting. technology stimulating and inhibiting. certain brain areas that control. propriception and it makes people sleepy. and they fall asleep. So as crazy as. this sounds, >> this really works. >> It really works. It really works. Now if. you're if you drink four cups of coffee. and you're ruminating over something, it's not going to override that. But if. you wake up in the middle of the night, you go to the restroom, for instance, you I woke up, I go back, maybe it's. noisy, someone made a noise. Close your. eyes and with your eyes closed you're.

gonna move your eyes to doesn't matter. to the left or right first you go one. side then the other side maybe do it. again if you want then counterclockwise. clockwise then you kind of point your. eyes toward your midline or your your. nose and then you exhale and you forget. body position many many people who I've. taught this to write to me and say I. can't believe it but I then wake up the. next morning it's wild I did it on the. plane ride here I was out also these. circuits that we access in yoga nidra of.

self-directed relaxation or of turning. off propriception, our knowledge of our. body position. They are amendable to. plasticity, which is simply to say that. they get stronger in response to these. behaviors over time. The plasticity of. these behaviors is really critical. You. get better at it. The same way that I'm. sure you know, you sit down and you're. really excited about something, you're. in immediate focus. But I'm guessing at. some point in your school career, your. career career, you have something you're.

like, I don't want to do this. But you. know how to get in gear. You think, okay, what do I have to do? Maybe you. watch a YouTube video. Maybe you don't. You turn on some music. You tell. yourself, what's wrong with me? Like, all right, let's get this. You call. someone. Let's do it. And you're in. >> Yeah, >> you know how to ramp up, but do you know. how to turn it off? Do you know how to. ramp down? And you know, the best. athletes know how to do this. That's a. skill you learn. you and so this. 25-year-old person I would say great you. are in the peak of the opportunity to.

still rewire your brain in the right. ways that includes get after it culture. but how are you going to turn off your. brain to restore reset dump the data. that's not significant from the day. before the the conflict you had some the. thing you saw online is an attempt to. steal your focus and energy and sleep. >> when I go on X I'm literally it's. warfare I'm I'm a benevolent player. there, but you're not going to take my. energy. I think about this. You're I.

have I have a shield up. You're not. going to take my Somebody says something. about me. You're I know what they're. trying to do. They're losing energy by. But I'm not going to let them take It's. It's a video game. And you win by taking. as many of those attentional resources. and putting them into your health, your. well-being. This includes how you treat. other people. You think you're a high, can you be a like a high focus driven. person and switch it off? >> That's a mental, career, financial,

whatever you want to call it, physical. athlete. That that's the that's the. dangerous person. I don't worry about. the person who can just get after it and. drink 12 cups of coffee, pop an. Adderall, and and just outwork. everybody. So the next morning they're. they're outworking everybody. Okay, see. you on Thursday. I'm going to I'm going. to blast past you. And I actually. learned this when I was first starting. off in neuroscience. I would go to. meetings. I never liked drinking. alcohol. First of all, I don't like the. way people act when they drink alcohol.

I never felt like I There might have. been a few weddings or parties in my my. life where like I'm with friends I. really know and we have a few drinks and. like there's that bonding feeling. It. was great. Let's be honest, it was. great. But most of the time at. scientific meetings, I just noticed. people being sloppy and stupid, saying. dumb things, getting themselves in. trouble. Also, I was there to build my. career. So I thought, well, maybe in 20. years when I'm a tenure professor, I'll. do that. But now I'm going to bed early. on night one. And on night two, those. guys who are really established, like.

they're kind of dragging. By day three, they're falling asleep and like they're. with their mouth open and drooling in. the in the meetings and a bunch of. students do too. These were athletes. that'd be like, "This is too easy. I'm. still there front row taking notes, getting my workouts in, and on the last. night I might have a good time.". So, it's not that I don't have a good. time, but I from day one, I I'm going to. pass you, not you, but you get the idea. I'm going to pass up the next person by. what I don't do as much as what I do.

>> And we don't hear about this cuz it's a. little bit hard to put all this into a. 90-cond clip on social media. So, a lot. of get after itself. Take this peptide, take this stimulant. And listen, I love. caffeine and I think there's a place for. these tools, but it's much easier to get. in gear. How do you do that day in day. out consistently? Have a reset day. One. day per week I don't exercise. I try and. spend as much time in fresh air, sunshine, and relaxation as I can, but. if I can't, I might just veg all day.

>> Like do nothing half a day, watch a. movie with my girlfriend, relax, just. kick back, hang out, be I call it I I. sort of joke it's it's our zero cortisol. day. No such thing as a zero c. I still. get the sunlight in the morning at that. cortisol peak. You know, I didn't. emphasize this enough before, but I'll. just return to the if you have a high. morning cortisol peak. Any stress that. comes, you'll be able to deal with it. There's actually really good data on. this. I I'm not here to plug my book, but I have this book, Protocols, which. discusses this, that the return to. baseline of of cortisol after a stressor.

is much faster if you had high morning. cortisol. The worst situation is a. what's called flattening of the morning. of the cortisol curve across the day. where it's not a big peak in the. morning. It's kind of high midish. baseline into the evening. Any stress. that comes is riding on an higher. baseline. Now it's carrying into the. evening. It disrupt it's shown to. disrupt all sorts of things. Blood. glucose regulation, all the negative. effects of cortisol, so-called chronic. stress are really about afternoon and. nighttime high cortisol. We're never. told this. Also, if you're somebody who.

uses, for instance, ashwagandha to. suppress cortisol, that should. definitely be done in the final hours of. the day, not in the morning. Small. amounts in the early part of the day, fine. later in the day not so good. I. don't recommend people take ashwagandha. for long periods of time maybe for. >> two for well. it potently reduces cortisol you know by. one study depending on the amount but. 600 milligrams you know twice you know. or so um can reduce cortisol. significantly by about 30%. You want.

high morning cortisol. So you want in. the afternoon. I would say if you're. going to reduce cortisol using. ashwagandha at high doses, you want to. limit that to about two weeks without. taking and then take two weeks off. In. moderate doses, you know, 300 up to 600. milligrams is probably fine to take. consistently, but in the second half of. the day, um, some people take things to. fall asleep. I I I think things like. magnesium, theine, apagenine, which is. chamomile tea, or things like. ashwagandha, can help. But if you're not. doing all the right behaviors, it's.

going to make a trivial impact. And I. have been somewhat um you know bullish. on experimenting with things like. pinealon which is a peptide that can. help increase REM sleep, but only every. once in a while. I don't think it's good. to rely on pharmarmacology to induce. sleep too often. Also because you're. shortcircuiting your ability to turn. your mind on. >> but I do like stimulants early in the. day. In particular, caffeine. That's the. my main stimulant. Alpha GPC and things. of that sort. Energy drinks. Do you use. nicotine? It seems like everyone uses.

nicotine now. Go. Good for you. You. might be the one male under 40 I've met. that doesn't take nicotine. You know, nicotine creates an alert but calm. state, which is a very coveted state. It's hard to get that state, but it does. increase blood pressure and it's very, very habit forming. I mean, you see. these guys who they start with one 3. milligram pouch and a six milligram. pouch. Pretty soon it's five pouches a. day. I love competing with those guys. because in a few years they're going to. have other issues. >> So like I'm my dad who's a scientist.

taught taught me this long ago. He said, "Listen, you got to learn to be a. long-distance runner. This is a long. game. [snorts] You want to win the long. game. You want to win the short and the. medium game, too, but you want to win. the long game." And anyone can push hard. in the short term, but they're just and. you're going to see you're just going to. see people start dropping out. So take. care of those final hours of the day. Learn to turn it off. You can also. practice yoga nidra with a 10, 20 or 30. minute script. They're all there, you. know, tons of them on YouTube. We have.

some on our web page. They're all zero. cost. They're all it just depends on. what you like. You could do the practice. that in the day. If you don't get enough. sleep, for instance, I highly recommend. doing it first thing when you wake up in. the morning to recover the sleep you. didn't get. It's very potent at. recovering mental and physical vigor. If. you can't do it, then in the afternoon, I always have a little bit of a dip. around 2 PM. If I didn't sleep enough. the night before, I religiously do a a. yoga nidra between 2 and 3 p.m., maybe. even 10 minutes, ideally 20 or 30. Come.

out of that, hydrate, maybe a little bit. of caffeine. Boom, you're right back. There's now data showing that pockets of. the of your sleep of your brain go into. deep sleep and maybe even REM sleep. while you do Nidra. So, it's very. restorative. There is no pill that will. do this. There's no pill that will do. this. >> And you don't do that at night. >> yoga nidra. >> before sleeping. >> I generally don't because I don't have. trouble falling asleep. The challenge. I've had over the years is falling. asleep and then waking up at 2 or 3 or 4. in the morning and not being able to go. back to sleep. The eye movement trick.

plus doing nijra during the daytime has. I have the ability to turn my mind off. and go back to sleep. Well, the real key. to becoming what you call dangerous and. ultra resilient or antifragile, whatever. language you want to use, is you learn. to recognize what state you're in. This. is this is the piece actually that sits. even deeper than all the rest. You know, the oracle said it first, but know. thyself. You have to know where you're. at. Am I in a good state? Am I in a. vulnerable state? If I go on social. media now and I see something that.

upsets me, am I just going to go down. that rabbit hole? We all like to think. we can just blaze through life, but. knowing where you're at is like checking. the checking the engine, checking the. machine, is like the steering aligned. And I don't sleep as much as I need to. or I have stressors in my life. My. steering is not aligned. So, I have to. do other things to keep myself in check. >> Um, you don't. >> Yeah. So, it's about building in a. resilience that includes flexibility. >> And I think people hear like they think. rigidity, but it's not that. You know,

I'm working really hard on having a turn. off button. >> That's the hard one, right? >> It's really, really hard. And there was. about like 3 years ago, there was a. phase of my life where I was just like. pushing through, pushing through really. like. >> Yeah, I get the sense you're that kind. of guy. >> 3 hours, 4 hours sleep. And that's when. I discovered NSDR yoga nitra from you. And they were like audios 10 minutes, 20. minutes. And I was doing like three. podcasts a day, like you know, just 3. three hours. And then what I started.

doing, my team started noticing like in. middle of one guest would leave and then. I would have like a 30 minute break. before the next guest comes right and I. would put in the NSDR audio by you. >> and I would just lay down and I would. fall asleep like like a baby and they. were like where did Raj go? Awesome. >> Like where is he? And I'm like under the. table sleeping and but those 10 minutes. 15 minutes gave me so much energy which. probably even a coffee didn't give me.

>> right. >> that was like so good like those 10 20. minutes now. >> your mind needs to turn off you need to. go into this some people call default. mode network which is associate people. get confused because the the default. mode network is associated with. depression if it's too high but you need. to go into idle you can't just push this. engine that is your brain and nervous. system all the time. I mean, you can do. it. The problem is you can do it for a. while, but what I love about what you. just described is, and this is another. piece, so I'd say know thyself.

Learn how to turn your mind off, meaning. learn how to turn off thinking and. planning. I'm not saying turn thoughts. off. You can still learn how to go into. pure sensation and relax. Boost your. morning cortisol, keep it low at night, which allow your melatonin to be high. So, these are we're sort of building out. a framework here. And then the other one is take yourself. seriously. And taking yourself seriously is both. hitting the gas pedal and knowing how to. do that and knowing how to come off the. gas pedal so that you can come back and.

do it again. You gave a really great. example. What I heard, what I thought as. you told me that story is awesome. You're taking yourself seriously. You're. you're the equivalent of a professional. athlete or somebody who's studying for. their boards for neurosurgery for. medical school, whatever. somebody's. doing. 15 years old, 20 years old, 25 years. old. Take yourself seriously. Now, people hear that and they think, uh, more rigidity, no fun, no laughter. No, laughter is great. Having a great time.

with your team is great, but the people. who become leaders, the people who win. in their fields, the people that do it. consistently over time and enjoy the. process and have healthy lives. internally and externally, they know how to switch it off and they. take themselves seriously. And you know. it was um I think it probably comes from. my dad's side you know that I I would go. to these scientific meetings and I was. like how could these people be like so.

serious about their careers but then. they sort of like are like partying. through the meeting and I realized oh. many of them are actually just really. brilliant so they can do this. None of. those people are around anymore. They're. not in the field anymore. like natural. proclivities and and genetic gifts, they'll carry you pretty far. But the. people with genetic gifts and natural. proclivities and circumstantial gifts. [snorts] that take themselves really. seriously, they we know they they excel. Okay, most of us have some opportunities.

and advantages afforded to us. Some. people have none. The only way for all. these people, all three categories of. people to excel in the long term is you. have to take yourself seriously. And. people will hear this and they'll think. uh like Huberman, he's just like take. it. Yeah, take it. You've been gifted. this life, right? It doesn't mean you. don't smile, smile, experience joy, take. a day and just completely relax. You you. want to be present to people. But if you. don't take these things seriously, what.

ends up happening is you default to the. mean, the dominant culture that you're. surrounded with. So if you're around. people that like to work hard, play. hard, okay, cool. But pretty soon you're. playing as hard as you're working and. that doesn't look so good over time. Okay? Or you're around people that have. given up or they're getting depressed. and now you're not the person that can. be there to really support them. You're. one of them. So, nobody is made of steel, right?

We're not robots. But take yourself. seriously. Take your life seriously. And. I know your listeners do that. But I. think that perhaps they've been taught. or they've they've convinced themselves. that to take oneself seriously is to. never come off the gas pedal. >> You know, Formula 1 driver knows like. that it's not just pit stops. The car. needs care. It needs love. It needs. rest. But when you rest and how you rest. is absolutely key. And the other piece. of it is, you know, that becomes tricky. is, you know, which people belong in.

your life, which people don't. And. that's a tough one because it starts to. sound rigid. You know, when I hear about. people's like, I eliminate all toxicity. from my life. There's no such thing. Toxicity comes through the phone. There's no such thing. They're going to. be people who have challenges and. they're not handling them well. Are you. going to be in a position where you can. help lead them and guide them and uh and. be the calm in their storm so that they. can hopefully if you need it be the calm. in your storm. That's how it works. So I. love that you do nidra in between. And.

if listen if one day you decide you know. every once in a while you just scroll. Instagram instead cool if you reset. [snorts] What you don't want to do is. scroll Instagram thinking I should be. doing yoga nidra or I should be doing. the other thing. When our mind is split. between two places, that's the most. taxing thing. When we're trying to. focus, but we can't. When we're trying. to sleep, but we can't. The mind thrives. on kind of unitary states, but those are. hard to get into. We need to train. ourselves to get into them. And sadly,

the mind defaults to unitary states like. anger and frustration very easily. And. most of the algorithmic stuff that not. all of it but a lot of it is designed to. get you into those states very quickly. so you're not doing anything else. >> Yeah. >> So yeah, >> you know this used to be one of the. biggest lies that I used to believe in. that you don't need an off button. And. I've I've been this hustle hustle hustle. work work be obsessed. I' I've been like. a kind of a poster boy for a lot of my. life just like that in my family and.

friends and I've been there and I've. realized in last couple of years like. not not even couple of like very. recently that you need to take a break. you need to actually have an off button. and now I'm very consciously practicing. that trying to take an off right. >> what has been what do you think like. what's the biggest lie you know which is. which we hear in the world about mental. toughness or about elite performance. >> Yeah, great question. I think put. simply, it's that the goal is to just.

build a bigger and bigger capacity. >> What we don't acknowledge and people. need to understand is that the better. you get at something, this is a it's a. weird one. The better you get at. something, the more of an inroad into your energy. it creates. Now, this is weird, right? Because when you're first learning. something, it takes a lot of energy. Then you get. >> you get fluid with it. You can sit down. and podcast. I can sit down and podcast. under most any conditions, right? As. long as there's enough oxygen in the.

room. And maybe even if there's not, you. and I can have a great podcast. We just. know how to do it. But to really drop. into your craft and I don't care if it's. podcasting or finance or sport or. medicine, it creates an inroad into your energy. and it is greater than when you're not. very skilled at something because you're. you're engaging more and more and more. focus. So I think there's two things. The early part of any career, you have. to find your edge. Okay, so this runs a.

little bit countercurrent to everything. I've said, but you're trying to figure. out, yeah, how how little sleep can I. exist on? Okay, I break at two nights no. sleep. Okay, I break. I can do one. night. In fact, I did it last week. 30-hour work stretch with my business. partner. Haven't done that in a long. time. We did it. It hurt. We did it. We. carried each other. I was like, I could. tell when my mind was getting wobbly. He. would step in. We would do things. And. we did it. We had to do it. Feels good. I don't really want to do that again for. a long while. Um but I built that. capacity over many years. Okay, you.

build that capacity by finding your. edge. Now you don't want to die or. injure yourself or become mentally sick. but you get to that edge and then you. stay away from that edge and then so I. would say in the first year or two of. doing something go for it. Just go all. in. Reset only. as needed to just keep coming back. Keep. coming back. Keep coming back. But at. some point you're going to hit a wall. You want that wall to be a non-lethal. wall. Okay, you want that wall to be I'm.

exhausted. I need a week off. I can't. afford a week off. Okay, I hit my wall. That's my limit. What can I do every day. at this point consistently over time and. work around that average? It's going to. balance around that average plus or. minus 2 hours or so. So, for me, I like. you, I have a a pretty large capacity. If I do the right things in between, on. the way here, I cleared my mind. On the. flight in, I slept. I know how to clear. my mind and reset, but I can probably do. anywhere from.

depends on the work. Um, anywhere from. 5 to 10 hours of real work per day, real. work. Okay, that's not including the. lunch break. It's not including the. walk. So, like. >> five is doable. >> 6 to 7 is doable. Hurts a bit more. 10. hurts. The next day, I'm not doing 10. I'm borrowing from the next day where I. can only do five, right? Okay. And you. know this, but I had to find that. I had. to establish that you build that up the.

same way you build up strength. You. know, there's a beautiful parallel to. resistance training. Everyone knows, okay, you you do your sets and reps, you. take the reps to failure or close to. failure, you allow some period of time, the muscle gets stronger, you come back. But an old principle from resistance. training that's still very true is as. you get better at it, you know how to. really cramp the muscle hard. you know. how to really push. You know when the. when the harder reps are coming, you get. better at inducing the stimulus, the. stress stimulus that causes the the.

adaptation of growth and and strength. increase. You need fewer sets after resistance. training for 10, 15 years. People say, "Oh, no, no, you need to do more." No, you need to pour more into fewer sets. You have the ability to do that. Now, when somebody first starts resistance. training, they can't generate that kind. of focused intensity. So the more. focused intensity you can bring to. something, the more volume and focused. intensity, the more rest you need to. offset that. So what ends up happening. is at your stage when you're, you know, I would say like the first year 1, two,

and three, I think you can go on all gas. pedal in anything. Just all gas pedal. Work, work, work, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn. Do it. Don't die. The goal. is just don't die, but just go all in. Okay? Then in years four, five or so, you're learning how to create some. balance and be more effective. You're. trying to stay out of chronic illness. You're trying to stay out of autoimmune. conditions. You're you know, this is. typically if people don't do this is. when their hair starts falling out. They. start getting skin issues. The nervous. system is.

>> is under stress. It's just you're that. nighttime cortisol is too high. If we. really want to break it down, that's. what's happening. The rhythm is off. The. nighttime cortisol is too high. you're. not resetting the nervous system and. therefore the endocrine system and. therefore all the immune system and so. on. And some people break at that point. >> Um, you know, I do think that there's. variability. People who are very driven, who are kind of highwired. I'm of that. sort. Um, you might be of that sort. They tend to have a certain physical. stature. Um, they're kind of go go go. They're kind of electric and they know.

that electric ant feels really good, right? They tend to veer more towards. towards autoimmune conditions because. they can push push push push push and. the the cortisol just keeps coming and. they can keep going. Some people just go. into like a chronic fatigue. Boom. [clears throat] They just crash. They. just crash. My problem your problem is. we don't crash. We keep going but we're. our baseline is dropping. >> So the key is around years I would say. four, five, six, you're learning to. bring the balance in. Now by years 6 7.

there's some overlap there obviously 6 7. 8 9 10 you're a pro. Now you're a pro. You know when you're stressed. You know. when you're feeling extra good. You know. when you need to nidra. You know when. you need to get off your phone and go do. this thing and you know what to go do. So it doesn't mean you need 10 years to. get good at something. You can get real. far real fast in three years. But you. can't keep that pace up. >> You have to learn to dynamically. regulate it. And the unit of of. analysis, like the the unit of time to.

focus on is the day. What can I do. today? This is another big part of. shutting your brain off. I'm not. thinking about tomorrow as its own. thing. I know it's coming. I know I've. got stuff to do, but what can I do today. to get the most done, but know that I'm. coming back tomorrow and I got to do it. again. I want to do it again. So, years. 1, 2, and three, go for it. years four, five, six, learn to dynamically regulate. it. Beyond that, you're a pro.

>> and now you you really can start to. integrate the principles of what you're. and you'll and that's when you also can. start guiding your team better. Hey, listen, that's a left column issue. >> Clip it. >> You know, here go do yoga. I don't want. to do yoga like you're you're inhaling. too much oxygen for this problem. Go. turn it off. You know, I have a lock box. for my phone that I still sometimes use, but I don't need it quite as much these. days. But I needed that at some point.

because there was just too much. incoming. And this is what you're really. becoming a mental athlete, right? And. then in terms of physical well-being, I. do think that there's certain physical. activities that can help reset the. nervous system. People are different, but for me, once a week I need to go on. a long jog or run or cycle or swim. So, it's an hour slow, really slow. I do. that typically on Sundays. I like to do. it out ofdoors. I might do it socially. uh with someone else or other people, but it's a it's an endurance thing. I'll.

listen to podcasts or books and I'll. just like, go, this last Sunday I just. went for a slow jog, you know, out and. back 45 minutes. The whole work of the. thing is to not go any faster and just. do it. That takes me into the week. I. start my week with a hard leg workout. That's how I like to do it, but it's. brief. It's only about an hour. Two a. couple warm-up sets and a couple hard. work sets for each muscle group. So that. means some belt squats or some leg. presses or some, you know, and some.

hamstring curls and taken to failure. Two or three sets. This is important. You want to keep the body strong, especially the lower body. You get that. out of the way early in the week. But I. don't push to exhaustion because it's. Monday and I have a long week ahead. Next day, rest. I didn't do any exercise. today. I try and walk in the morning. I. get my sunlight. I do these things, but. take that day off after the leg day. A. day later, depending on how I feel, I. might do some resistance training again, but typically I will do some sort of.

easier cardio, only about 30 minutes, just keep the cardiovascular system. going, blood flow to the brain. These. things really help improve brain. function, blood flow, uh, improve sleep. and so on, but nothing excessive. The. next day, I'll do some sort of pushing. and pulling. So, some pressing movements. for the chest, some pressing movements. overhead, some chin-up type movement, and some rowing type movement, some. abdominals. So, it's just kind of like. general torso stuff. Same principle, a. couple warm-up sets, couple hard work. sets to failure of each exercise. You're. done in an hour. And then the next day,

I do some sort of cardio, very brief, to. get my heart rate way, way up. V2 max. type training, just once a week. Get on. the aerodine bike, warm up for a minute, and then pedal hard hard for 20, 30. seconds. Rest 20 seconds, and then. repeat hard, hard, hard, um, something. like that for six rounds. By the end, your heart rate is maxed out. You feel. like you want to die, but then the rest. of the day is pretty easy. >> This rhythm works very well because. you'll get strong, you'll have.

endurance, you'll have the ability to. sprint and go fast. You're not going to. be the fastest or the or the best. runner. You're not going to be the. strongest, but you're going to have. all-around fitness. Your posture will be. good. I'm 50 years old. I've been. training this way for 35 years, and I. can tell you, uh, anyone can do this. Male, female, whatever age or hormone. status, you can do this. But you need to. find your walls. You need to find your. limits. And then you need to decide if. if you're going to push past them. And. and I think for me the the real joy is.

in trying to share tools with people. like the morning cortisol stuff, the low. nighttime cortisol stuff, and the many. other protocols we cover in a so that. they can set themselves up to be in the. best position to succeed over time. Cuz. if you don't get that right, you're not. going to succeed over time. >> You know, there are many things you can. take to give you energy. There are many. books you can read for inspiration. I. don't even think about inspiration. anymore. what. >> I just don't I I think um I try and look.

for themes in the world where I like to. interact with people. like you, like my friend Eddie that I. saw do neurosurgery this morning who are. like really in their element cuz there's. a vibe that comes from that and and over. time you just find that you're just. surrounded by people like that. >> Agreed. >> Right. you just it's like it's like a. it's like a bunch of tributaries come. together and then like. >> I'll encounter people during the day. that are struggling and they'll say, "Hey, do you have any advice?" And of. course, I'll stop and give them my time.

But as you continue to do well and and. take care of yourself, you just notice. your whole world is made up of people. that are like really positive and then. you don't have to worry so much about. all the like the the downer stuff. It's. also important to keep in mind that when. you go online, you're in the you're in. the open waters of of everything from. very healthy to really just like. mentally ill. Like we have to remember. that on the internet a lot of people are. not well and they're stressed and. they're tired and they're um and you can.

send them love, but do not let any of. that erode your well-being. You cannot I. mean, you're a public figure. Uh I I. became a public figure at 45 and I'm 50. now. Um I like what do you do? I mean. that's it that takes a lot of strength. of mind in order to not because I'm sure. people say many many kind things but. occasionally people try and puncture. your balloon by just being unkind. because they're they're. >> they're kind of semi-broken people.

>> So how do you deal with that? Like what. is your what is your tool? >> I don't it doesn't affect me. I don't. know why. Like it just. >> Oh yeah. Healthy upbringing. Your. parents must have done something well. >> I absolutely thank them. Yes. >> For sure. It it doesn't affect me at. all. >> Uhhuh. >> Like things and I have a similar thing. which. >> and we're not just saying that for the. cameras. It really does. >> Like you can ask my team or like they. will tell you and I can tell you. everything. >> I mean it's my show. I can cut the wrong. stuff as to be honest with you. >> No, but I really I think it's it's.

interesting that um because I think a. lot of public figures and non-public. figures they struggle with that. Like I. don't I've never. >> I've never I don't doubt myself at all. >> Like just. >> great. >> Just say what you want to. >> Yeah. >> I I know what I'm. >> what I'm going to do. I see every hate. or every negative comment that I get. >> I see it either it's a constructive. feedback which I probably have missed. and it's a blind spot and I see it as. >> perhaps perhaps not always. Yeah. No,

not like like some of them I see it as a. constructive feedback that oh maybe I. missed this. >> and some I'm like. >> I don't care. That's your opinion. Like. it doesn't even affect me. I just laugh. it off. >> Yeah. I mean I think it's. >> I mean it's interesting because I think. it all starts with knowing that you're a. fun that one talking about themselves is. is a fundamentally good person. You. know, I think good parenting starts with. um children feeling loved and that they. are, you know, born into and are of.

goodness, right? Because I think that. people who don't feel that way um are. very susceptible to to criticism, right? Because it gets at this question like, "Am I bad? Am I this?" Like, it gets to. those things. If you if you know that. fundamentally you have a you have a good. heart, you you're human. You make. mistakes, but you have a good heart, you're 90% of the way there, right? So. keep that keeping that in mind. And then. there's this peculiarity of of human. nature that humans like I mean think. about what it takes just think for a. second of what it takes to go on the.

internet and take the time to send a or. post a cruel comment about somebody. Just think of like how broken somebody. has to be inside. And they're probably. hearing this and thinking no you're the. one that's you know but no like just. think about that. And I I don't say this. with any smuggness or pleasure. It's. like, wow. Like, I wouldn't in a million. years think to do that for amusement, for pleasure, for like it's net negative.

for everybody. You're down. >> wired that way. >> What's that? >> You're not wired that way. >> I don't get it. I really don't get it. And and so if people are feeling um. aggravated by content they see online. about themselves or others, they should. really keep in mind what it takes to um. to to kind of like how how broken and. sad somebody must be inside in order to. do that. So I if I see something I like, I try and I send them love. >> I just try and send them love. Good.

luck. Good, you know, love like you. know, but it's um it's great that you. don't you don't suffer from that. Like I. I think we don't talk about it often but. my parents and my brother like my family. in particular they did an incredible. job. I grew up in a joint family. >> and one thing which they gave what is. joined family? >> Join it's like we were 10 people in one. house. >> Okay. >> So join family is when you. >> uh like your mom and dad, you your. brother, my uncle, aunt, my grandma,

grandfather, everybody lived in one. house. >> Oh, how cool. Yeah. >> Yeah. We don't typically have that here. That's awesome. >> So we call it joint family and nuclear. family. Nuclear is when the way you guys. live here like mom, dad, kids. >> Yeah. Well, that's the best of. circumstances. Typically nowadays. there's I mean divorce is rampant here, right? My parents divorced. They both. got remarried. I was very young. It was. very disruptive. Very disruptive to my. whole psychology. But um but it worked. out and I loved them all and you know. but we certainly didn't all live under. one roof. So that's cool. So you would.

wake up in the morning, how many people. would you see in your kitchen? 10 people. just like [laughter]. >> amazing. >> and every weekend I would have like. cousins over so we would be like 30. people in one house. >> So I've I've born and brought up in that. and I think one incredible thing it's. like. a they did a great job because they they. gave me so much self-belief which I'm. just grateful. I don't know why they did. that and how they they did that but they.

did that very beautifully. Even today my. brother, my cousins, my everybody just. believes so much. So that's an. incredible thing. The other is also when. you're born with so many people all. around. You get immune to criticism. >> because you're since childhood, you've. been constantly compared [laughter]. >> like you're compared to your cousin, you're compared to your brother, you're. compared to the five people in family. >> and you've been like you've been shout. at, you've been abused on like just.

verbally about certain things. So, you. get so immune that by the time you're an. adult, the outside world doesn't affect. you at all. >> That's so interesting. Um, >> like it make you. >> I didn't know this existed, by the way. And I think most Americans won't know. this this uh joint family joint family. structure. But I have to say, you know, early on in life, I um I joined some. sports and some other things where I was. in a just a big pack of young guys. >> And you take a lot of we call it here. ribbing, right? You take a lot of like.

joking and hazing and I mean people are. rough on each other verbally and you. learn that it's an expression of love. >> Yeah. >> Sometimes it's an expression of real. criticism but it makes you resilient. And when I went into science listen in. science you are constantly being told. that's not good enough change the paper. That's not good enough for I mean it's. non-stop no not good enough. Finally. okay do it again. So I've never. um I assume crit criticism is part of.

the the process. So similarly so. different it came from my friendship in. my my work community but it was constant. barrage of critique critique critique. critique including some like you make. some embarrassing mistakes and you have. to live with that shame and recover from. it and know that you're still loved or. that you love yourself. So there are. some parallels but I think the fact that. you had that at home from such a young. age and now when you go home how like. when you visit is it it's a huge group. >> Oh yeah that's beautiful.

>> Now they're very proud. Of course they. don't criticize me anymore but. >> but you're you're now you're becoming a. leader of the family, right? An example. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you're and you're fine with that. pressure. It sound I I get the sense. that you feel calm in that pressure. >> That's great. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm okay with that. Yeah, it's wonderful. No, I think it's. wonderful. I'm learning from you. I. think I I don't think you see that. mindset in uh American households that. much. >> But you know, in like. my current state of reality has not.

changed their attitude towards me at. all. >> Mhm. >> Like does it make sense? >> That helps. Yeah. Keeps you humble. >> They just. >> they're the same people and they would. >> put me to ground and they would leave no. opportunity to thrash me whenever they. get. >> Well, that's that's good, too. Yeah. And. it's a way of love. >> Yeah, absolutely. No, I think that's. very very important. I mean, I am. relieved to hear it because I I worry. about people that become very successful. very young. You know, I was reasonably.

well I was a very aspiring kid. Then I. had some rough years. Then I would been. you know the scientific the I my. scientific career went very well. I had. to work very very hard but it went very. very well. Um but I was surrounded you. know at Stanford School of Medicine. and. you look to your left, you look to your. right, everybody's doing awesome stuff. And some of them are doing I mean, I've. got colleagues that will win Nobel. prizes, have won Nobel prizes. That that. wasn't me. I knew that like I it was a. good scientist. I think I am a good. scientist, but I also know knew my.

level, my place. Um I do feel I deserved. and deserve to be there. But when you're. surrounded by people that are like the. Michael Jordans of their field, the. LeBrons of their of you go like Eddie. Chang, my I mean like he's on a whole. other level, a whole other level. And. he'll be like no no like yes, completely. different as a clinician, as a. scientist. So it raises you your. standard is very high. But I think that. one thing that's great is that I became.

public facing at a time when I was 45. years old. So my personality and my, you. know, for better or worse, was already. crystallized. I was not going to change. that much. Um, but my friends still treat me the same. And I think that the the encouragement I. heard a good one. This was actually uh I. think it was Jaco Willing that said. this. He said, um, you know, your really. good friends will, and this is very like. maleoriented, really good male friends, they'll give.

you the hardest time to your face, but. they will never talk badly about you. behind your back. >> Bang on. >> Yeah. So, that's like that's the. critical test. Like, they should be able. to say anything and they will give you a. really hard time to your face, but if. you're out of the room, they're not. getting into any kind of gossipy stuff. about you when you're out of the room. and you about them. That's kind of like, you know, 30% of like how to be a dude. [laughter] Know that rule. Know that. rule. Take and give some some flak, you. know, when when your friend is in the.

room, when you're in the room together, but when you're out of the room, like. there's just no there's no bad talking. when people are out of the room. >> I think that's it's like a family of. sorts. So anyway, I I appreciate you. sharing a bit because um I get a sense. of that your confidence is is very is. very real. Um, and that doesn't arrive. on accident. So, yeah. >> You said it worries you when somebody. young gets super successful. Yeah. >> Why? >> What worries you the most? >> I mean, >> what have you seen personally? >> Oh my goodness. So, I've known people.

who got very popular, famous, and rich from athletics who really. soared in their business pursuits. everything from tech to people in the. you know world of you know culinary and. things like that and [snorts] so many. crash and burn. I mean attention is a. drug if [snorts] it's misused. Attention recycled into creative pursuit.

into intellectual pursuit and then. giving back more. That's a beautiful. thing. But you look at all these. performing artists, you know, musicians. and so forth that like they [snorts]. they implode. Um, and I think it's. because. um, like empmphetamines, like opioids, um, but especially like empmphetamines. that you know the the some people if. they don't have that solid family. grounding, that solid internal structure. and psychology, hopefully they have the family too, but. if they don't have that, they experience.

these peaks of attention and money where. they're the focus. Most people don't go. through life where like they're the. focus and then they experience this. traumatic dip afterwards and they need. to get back and if they can't they start. using substances or they start spending. it money in ways that they think that's. going to be the the um the quote unquote. salvation you know I mean I think. there's a reason why at least in the. United States so many um famous people. eventually turn to some notion of God.

right is because they realize that. that's a a loving relationship that will. never leave them if they don't leave it. And and and in principle, it never. leaves them anyway. Because. when people realize, oh, you know, people love them only because of the. position they're in. That's that's a. scary thing. There are certain things. that are immune to this. But if you. think about it, like um there's certain. roles that like they're only when. they're in when somebody's in the role, everyone [snorts] like treats them a.

certain way and does something the. moment they're out like that like like. no one cares about the the ex president, right? They kind of do, but they're no. longer the person other people treat. Well, now it's complicated because it's. so politically divided, but you get the. idea. But I think we've come up with. something today that I didn't intend to. sort of arrive at, but I do strongly. believe. Yours 1, two, and three. Gas. pedal. >> Gas pedal. Just do it. Don't damage your. health to the extreme. Like don't do any. crazy dang anything crazy. Don't die,

but like just gas pedal. Four, five, six. Learn to dynamically. regulate it. 7 8 9 and forward. All. right. Now you're Now the good stuff. Now you can really just fine-tune and. really and savor it, you know, like. savor it, like really sit back every. once in a while and be like, you know, like in your case, you can be like, man, I did that. You built something real. because you took the risk. And that's. what we want. I know, I can tell even. though we don't know each other very. well, like that's what you want for your.

audience. That's what I want for people. I want people to realize, yes, you may. have an autoimmune condition. You may be. suffering from a mental health issue. You need to tend to those things in very. direct ways but get these basic things. right. You will be amazed how much. better your life is. >> Are some people built different? >> In what sense? >> In any sense like you know when you look. at somebody who's like just on a winning. streak. You look at them and be like you. know that beast is built different. Well, certainly um.

while there are exceptions of people who. are very genetically disadvantaged, overcoming that and doing tremendously. well in sport, the example that's always. given is like Spud Webb won the slam. dunk competition. He's not a tall guy. kind of thing. Okay, but hang around. some NBA players, you realize most of. them are very very tall, right? >> That's a genetic thing. This amount of. IGF-1 and growth hormone pumped out of. their pituitary. So, you know, um. largely inherited. So, >> but from a mindset perspective, >> from a mindset, this is a fascinating.

issue to me. I I do believe that some. people have more energy and it's not. necessarily physical or mental energy, although it often is. It's more a sense. of self. Like some people report this, they believe when they're born that. they're like faded to do something. something. It's like they have this kind. of vi like level of vibration in their. nervous system that they need to like. take it someplace and like do something. with this. And when you give them.

something to bite down on and they just. go and hopefully they bite down into. something that's generative and healthy. >> You know, I I uh I humans are a unique. animal, but I spend a lot of time. thinking about the nervous systems of. other animals too for reasons related to. my scientific career. Some species of of. animals have a lot of energy and others. are very like loafed and then they. occasionally do something right. People. are kind of like that too. You know, I. do think that some people are just more. relaxed. They they not as driven. I. think they are still fundamentally.

important to society. And I don't say. that just to, you know, be politically. correct. I think that they we need. people who are just going to tend to. certain things day in day out on a very. um consistent level and they're not. trying to break out of their current. circumstances. They're not they don't. feel this friction with their current. circum they're not I do think that this. is strongly related to the dopamine. system. I think some people they feel. the friction of where they're at. It's. never enough which is tricky because you. want people to savor what they have and.

continue to strive. You don't want. people to be always dismayed. It's not. enough. That's not good, right? And you. see that when people start to think, oh, more cars, more money, more marriages, in some cases more children, you know, like it's interesting on X, you know, I. I spend a fair amount of time on X. >> It's interesting. You can learn things. there. But there seems to be this sort. of like competitiveness that you can. observe and certain people like about. kids. Great. Children are wonderful. They're joyful. I I love kids, right? But.

when people are attached to any one. thing as being the answer, it's very. clear where that's headed. They're not. they're headed for dismay. You know, they're headed for for trouble, whether. it's money or it's fame or anything. else. But I do think that having a. little bit of internal friction and. agitation or a lot. I mean, let's be. fair, like. many kind of disagreeable. uh people go on to do great things. because they look at the world and they.

say it can be so much better. >> We just have to build this, you know, trillion dollar company or it can be so. much better. We just have to talk about. all these things we know that nobody's. willing to talk about. Like in my case, I really believe that there's deep value. in people understanding some basic. science of how they work and also some. interesting things from health and. wellness and things from ancient really. ancient practices like yoga nidra that. if we can just tell it to them in the. form of physiology like maybe they'll.

get it like that most people just I. would say a lot of people look at the. world and they go h like I'm just trying. to get by. Um are they lazy? No. Are. they worse? No, it's just I do think. that people who like to build things. [sighs] have to build things. >> But when I was in high school and I was. involved in certain things, I was. talking to my friends about like, let's. get a wholesale license and build this. company. We probably should have done. it. It would have done very well. We. didn't. I listened too much and we. didn't do it. But then I went in the. direction of another thing. And then.

when I was running my lab, I'm tenured. I'm at Stanford. Everything's going. great. We're publishing articles in. Nature. It was a premier journal. I told. my dad I'm going to start a podcast and. he was like [sighs] to his credit he's. great about it now he's been a guest on. my podcast but he's like I don't know. that Stanford is going to like that like. how are you going to and I'm like I. don't care I'm doing this it's like. you're on a you have this feeling this. landscape of health science wellness. whatever it is it you just know it could. be so much better for everybody I'm.

going. >> and I think that's a unique trait and I. think it involves a certain amount. amount of of um no other option type. feeling in your body. It's like you you. feel pulled towards it. And I think the. hard part for people who are in this. category are when they feel these. valleys of I'm not as driven or like. things are not going as well. And I can. tell you having been in a long. scientific career now podcasting for you. know six years or so. How long have you.

been podcasting? >> This is 50th. >> Great. So we're colleagues, peers and colleagues. You know, there's. natural cycles. You know, the YouTube. algorithm changes a little bit. The. pause Bob I know has video like things. change. Experts like and it goes and. it's being a part of being a pro is. being able to tolerate those dips in one. area where other areas are going great. and then all of a sudden you're on a. rocket ship again. >> Yeah. >> And that just comes with maturity. Um. but quitting was never an option. Never.

an option. But see, you don't get that. quitting as an option because you're. wired that way, right? Same as with me. But there are some people who quit. >> And I would ask them with kindness, do you really want it. or is this or are you in the wrong. domain? Maybe you want it, but you need. to think about what it is. >> like. And it's tough because in years. that years one, two, and three, it does.

take an extreme output to see how far. you can go. But until you've given. something, you know, three years of. really solid effort, like bordering on. extreme effort, you don't know where it. can go. >> True. >> You don't really know. Um, and it's. tough because not everyone can do that. you know, suddenly they find themselves. with a new child at home and then the. certain although many people made it. work anyway. >> Let me be specific and you explain me. what's going on in the brain because you. used a while ago you used the word.

risk-taking. Some people are like that. they just go at it and then we were. talking about another situation where a. lot of people have dreams to do certain. things, right? So let me be very. specific that if there are two people. and they want to do something risky in. their life. Okay. One sees that risk and. jumps and then goes and does it anyway. The another thinks about it, plans about. it and just about to take a jump but. then freezes and does not take the risk.

What happens in the brain of that person. who's freezing and not taking the risk? >> Yeah, it's a great question. Well, we. can put science to it. Um. there's a really nice paper about the. neuroscience of choking, but not choking. choking. Um meaning when the stakes get. really high and you blow it. And it's a. beautiful experiment and it shows that. when. you have the opportunity to do something.

and get a little reward, you rarely. choke. When the rewards go up and up and. up and you start thinking about what you. stand to gain, not what you stand to. lose, you over the brain overrecruits. neurons in motor cortex and very skilled. people miss. >> It's fascinating and this carries over. to people in the world of finance and. all sorts of things. So it's not that. they're so at a neurological level, maybe even at a cognitive level.

The freezing comes from thinking too. much about how good it could go, [snorts] how well it could turn out, it. becomes overwhelming. The stakes are so. high. >> Yeah. >> So lower the stakes. Lower the stakes in. your mind. This is why, you know, I. love, you know, some of these phrases. are just cliches, but there have been. times in my career like I my podcast is. doing very well, but then I had this. book I needed to finish. It's a long. book. It's almost 650 pages. It's like. seven books collapsed into one.

>> Yeah. So that people could read 100. pages on sleep and have their sleep. worked out or stress or exercise. They. don't I don't expect anyone to read it. all the way through, right? You'd fall. asleep. So cure insomnia. But but doing. that in parallel with the podcast was a. lot. And so the mindset in my mind was. chop wood, carry water, which is a. phrase which just means some days you. don't think about why. You just chop. wood, carry water. This is how you keep. a village going, right? Chop wood, carry. water. And I said, I'm doing this simply. because I said I would chop wood, carry.

water. Resentments would come up. Why' I. do this? I can get out of this. Push that aside. Chop wood, carry water. Took time. Took. much longer than I thought, but you get. there. What was I doing? It was just. lowering the stakes. Just do it today. Just today. One more day. One more day. I think when people get to that place. where they could do something and they. freeze, they're imagining how great it. could go. We think they're imagining how. terrible it could go. But what causes us. to choke is, oh my goodness, like so.

much is at stake. If I can't do this, I. can't do anything. So they're psyching. themselves out. So lower the stakes. Give it go all in instead of for three. years. Go all in for three days and then. quit. Talk to me after three days. If. you survive three days, you can survive. three more days. You survive those three. days, you can another three days. And. just keep going. Lower the like bring. the horizon in. Bring the time horizon. in. That's the way to do it. Now, the. person who just jumps, we love and. admire those people. You did it. I did.

it. But the timing has to be right, too. You can't be reckless. You can't be. halfhazard. We know this, right? That's. how you get yourself killed in physical. endeavors. And that's how you lose. everything in financial endeavors, right? You know, um what is it? I think. it's like the Warren Buffett saying. like, you know, there, you know, three. things kill men in in finance. Like it's. like a liquor, you know. Um ladies, if. they, you know, they're not faithful, they pick, you know, they have crazy, you know, dating life and this kind of.

thing. Um and leverage, they overlever. like you, I mean, you can be take on too. much risk and lose, right? and the other. two the the first two there it's worth. mentioning I've studied many stories of. success in the creative arts in science. in and and to some extent even in. podcasting now the excesses that people. bring about when they start to do really. well are often what take them down. overspending. drugs you know I mean like we've watched. this recent Conor McGregor thing this.

guy was at the pinnacle right and I. don't know what his specific issues were. but too much money, too many resources, not enough people around you to keep you. in check and somebody can collapse. It's. very easy to see and to recognize when. somebody has a substance abuse issue or. if they have a behavioral regulation. issue and they're like getting in fights. in bars or things like that, you know, which sadly um happened to a number of. people who are like pro aletes.

But the excesses are also excesses of. ego where people think, "Oh, like I won. the last I built 10 companies. I can. build 10 more. >> How about one more better than all the. other 10?" Right? This is where I do. think like him or hate him, I think Elon. is particularly impressive because he. goes for big things, but he knows. himself. He can manage all this stuff. >> You know, you you said about people who. get it. It's about their ego and then. power and then they kind of because they. have all excessive things they start.

losing it right. >> and attention. >> and and attention so I was reading a. research very recently. >> and I'm quoting it it was about power. like. >> people who get so much power. what power does to your brain is. equivalent to somewhat of trauma like 20. years of research they did I I can't. remember the specifics But if you're. given power, your brain literally. changes as if it changes in trauma.

>> Interesting. >> Like you get more impulsive. You start. losing real sense of reality. All of. these things starting to happen. Your. decisions start getting worse and worse. And the the more and more powerful you. get, all of these things start happening. to you. >> Yeah. Well, the world uh enforces us. I. it it makes me think, you know, when. when kids are young and especially with. adolescence, like many years ago, I was. like a camp counselor and you see this. thing with adolescence is they're. constantly taking things to the they're. like testing the edges, right? But deep.

down they want you and you need to keep. them safe and small kids are like this. They'll sort of go to an edge of a thing. and they'll look to their parents like, "Are you looking out for me?" Right? I. mean as we get more power, more freedom, we sometimes like we test it. But yeah, life has its own way of of correcting. these things. Um it's tricky because I. don't want people to feel like as they. gain success that they should, you know, just sit in their chair and keep. working. For some people, the the reward.

is the work. And I think it is important. to make the work a significant fraction. of the reward. Otherwise, you can't keep. it up. You can't just do something just. for money. Unless you Listen, I know. some investors. They will say it. They. love money. Why do they Why do they love. money? I don't know. Maybe they grew up. poor. Maybe they just love money. They. like investing. They like winning. But. they like earning it. They don't like. they like earning it more than they like. spending it. It's so cool. It's like a. game. It's like a video game for them. For me, I love learning and I love.

teaching. So for me, learning and. teaching, learning and teaching, that's. the process. and anything that comes of. that whether or not it's recognition or. any financial returns are just icing. but people naturally start to focus on. oh well if I do this thing that's a good. business decision this will be good for. me and my family I mean we can have m. multiple incentives and motivations but. as but we have to stay attached to the. core thing. >> the core thing like the the the work of. it the essence the learning and the. teaching for me like I'm constantly.

looking for new information I think. could be of use this conversation is. stimulating thought I mean I I am very. intrigued by this family model. I think. it's really beautiful but it has I'm. going to think about that more what it. means what what could be adopted for. people who don't have the access to that. what components might be useful or rep. replicable um and other things you said. like I I I think because for me learning. and thinking and teaching is what it's. about. I do think.

if somebody's doing really well, you. would hate for them to think, "Oh, well, now it's all going to just, you know, like come crashing down." No, you can. make really good decisions. And one of. the best ways to do that is to have a. committee of people. You should not be. making all the decisions about your life. in the confines of your skull. You need. people that you respect, not for every. decision, but certain people for certain. decisions that you can bounce things off. of. and you don't let them make the. decisions, but you need to pressure test. because we can delude ourselves, right?

But there also comes a time when you. just say, "I'm going to ignore. everybody. I'm going to do this." And if. it doesn't work out, you got your. lesson. And if it does work out, which. often it does, you go, okay, now you're. what we call a leader. You're you have. knowledge and experience that they don't. have. And that's a great place to find. yourself. And I as we I describe this, I'm thinking there's probably some. people who are not even started to build. their business or build their life. Everything we're talking about is. accessible. It truly is accessible. You.

take care of your physical body and your. biological rhythms. You if you can't get. all the exercise every week, you get. some. You you lean into some mission, some adventure that stands to have a. payoff. You avoid the excesses. You. don't get into extremes of work and. partying. you don't get into extremes of. anything except maybe in that first. three years you go all in. I've never. seen it fail and that's true across. cultures. Now there are some areas of. the world that are very like where.

people just cannot move because of like. very oppressive regimes and things like. that but that's not what we're talking. about. Um. and I think people should spend a bit of. time thinking about what's really true. for them and what they want to pursue. It's also just good to go after. something in the short term. just get. really good at something and then it. allows you to pivot into the next thing. because the process is the same. >> But do you think we have to try doing. this constantly. in order to achieve something like all.

these protocols trying to win, trying to. do something? Because isn't our brain. designed to just keep us alive, not make. us thrive in life? >> I think humans are different. I think. humans were afforded all the areas of. the brain for survival. But we have this. expanded prefrontal cortex that allows. us to set strategy and build things, imagine technologies, take our. experiences that are hard for people. with traumas, build something beautiful. out of that. Take our experiences that. were loving and supportive and afforded.

us incredible opportunities. Build. something beautiful out of it. I mean, this is the story of of human uh human. history. We are different. We are not. just about survival. The moment our. basic needs are met, we have two. options. We either can get anxious and. dissolve into a puddle of our own. anxious thoughts or we can take those. anxieties [snorts] and funnel them into. doing something which advances us. This. is a binary choice. There is no in. between. Most people bounce back and. forth a little bit naturally at 2 or 3.

in the morning when they wake up. Everyone does it. But on average, you. want to be veering into that right lane. of doing something. The anxiety. oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes, I would even. say the majority of the time, is not. because we have this impending thing. that's bad that's going to happen. It's. because we're fed, we're we're rested, we're watered, we uh we have enough. social connection and now we need to do. something with this additional energy. And so you we have to grab a hold of our. mind, grab a hold of our bodies and take.

it someplace regimented. And it's hard. You know, yesterday I had a conversation. with someone on the podcast. We were. talking about flow states. Such a. compelling thing. Go into flow. And he. said, "No, no, no. In the world of of. high performance, we now talk about. clutch states." I'd never heard of this. I said, "What's clutch state? I'm a. neuroscientist. I've heard of flow. states.". >> Yeah. to clutch states are the states of. forcing oneself to do something at that. kind of edge of friction and effort that. most athletes, investors,

high performers, business people live in. 90% of their waking hours. And I was. like, finally, someone defi described my. life right now. Right now in this, I'm. enjoying this, but I, you know, I can. tell a little bit the way that your mind. works is like you're also trying to. enforce certain things. is like we're. not just like having a meandering. conversation, right? This is not. philosophy, okay? The the clutch state. is where you have to take our energy and. our anxiety and funnel ourselves into.

it. Um, and I think that it's such a. beautiful concept because flow is like, okay, that comes every once in a while. in years 7, 8, 9, and beyond when you. already achieved mastery because you can. be unskilled, skilled, mastery, and. virtuosity. The virtuosity, everyone. wants that. Everyone wants that, but. it's built on years upon years of basics. of clutch state, clutch state, clutch. state. That's the state to get yourself. into. >> and then turn your mind off and relax. and just keep going. So I don't think.

our the I do think the purpose of humans. well there many but one of our major. purposes is to take this extra mental. real estate that we have the extra. neural real estate which is our. prefrontal cortex which can think and. plan and come up with ideas and error. correct and try things and listen to. podcasts and books and then go and. implement and um think about what we. regret. take the lesson, move forward, try and cut with our losses, all of.

that. That's what brought us out of mud. huts and you know, and where we were the. prey and now we're the curators of the. earth and we're building rocket ships to. take us potentially to other planets and. we've got AI and we've got podcasts and. like I I think we're here for a lot more. than than just to get by. And if. [snorts] people just want to get by. Okay. Well, in certain societies, they. can do that and you work, you handle. your stuff, great. Like that's fine. But. h humanity is all our species has always.

advanced on largely on the shoulders of. I mean everyone's important. Clearly, everyone's of value, but has the big. advancements have always come through. people who are like, I've got a lot of. internal agitation and I'm going to. funnel it into something. And so now we. have this concept of clutch states. Beautiful concept. >> True. >> Not relaxed. I love it. >> Yeah, I love it, too. When I heard it, I. was like, "Thank you. You've given me a. new phrase." So, you and I and this guy, his name is Tommy Wood. He's a MD PhD up. at University of Washington. He studies.

high performance and neuroplasticity. Uh, we're probably the the among the. like 10 people on the planet who've. heard this term. So, now many more. people will hear about it thanks to. [laughter] thanks to your podcast. So, um, and and you know, no one owns that. term. Send it far and wide like this. I. don't own it. He doesn't own it. Send it. far and wide. This is get yourself into. a clutch state, folks, and and build. something. >> And this one's so much better than flow. state. >> Yeah. The the flow state thing is the. expression of something that's all that. you can already do. Has nothing to do.

with learning. >> Has nothing to do with learning. >> Learning is when you're making errors. You know, a fundamental principle of. neuroplasticity. >> is that if your nervous system can do. something, there's no plasticity. There's no rewiring. It's the gap. between your desired performance and. your current performance that creates. adrenaline. It creates in your body. norepinephrine in your brain and some. other neurochemicals that creates a a an. internal chemical uh millu that allows. neural circuits to rewire. But the.

errors are what drive that. Your nervous. system goes, "Oh, I can't do it. I can't. do it. I can't do it." You go to sleep. Few days later, you're doing it a bit. more and then pretty soon you've got it. And by the way, the best way to. reinforce anything that you've learned. is to self- test. We know this from. neuroscience and psychology experiments. Reading once you listen to a podcast, once you listen to a book, the best. thing that you can do is to take a walk. or just a few moments and just think, what did I learn? Okay, clutch. Do I. know what that is? Just a few things. here and there. And where you go, I.

don't remember. Great. Go look it up. You'll never forget it. The the learning. process is about recognizing what you do. and don't know. that it's those errors. that are so key. >> True. >> Yeah. So, um, so I've never talked about. those before because I just learned. about them yesterday and I love the. concept. >> Nice. I love it that we are learning. something new now. >> Yeah, [laughter] definitely. Yeah, clutch states are new. I think that the. and and this whole framework of like 0. to 3 years, you know, four to six years, the seven and beyond. Um, because I.

don't think it's really been broken. down. I think a lot of people like, "Oh, you get up and you run like David. Gogggins and then you you do it at 4:30. in the morning like Choco and then you. you do, you know, 50,000 protocols, you. know." No, no, no, no, no, no. That's. not that's not how it works. You know, >> I love it. Like, you know, you because. I've only heard few things from you and. you always seemed like you're this. 50,000 protocol kind of guy or. >> Well, my day is pretty regimented. I. take my supplements. I get my sunlight. I do my hydration. I do my workouts. I. do my yoga nidra. I dim the lights. I I.

do my journaling. I did my 10 breath. meditation. I get my I I do I do them. I. do the the big ones every single day, every single night, unless I can't in. which case I do as many as I can. But I. also have you I think sometimes people. forget that I like them have large. periods of my day where I have to be in. laser focus to podcast. I have to prep. prepare podcasts for guests and solo. podcasts. You know, some of the solo. podcasts are 100 hours or more of.

preparation. It's like doing like a. master's thesis and that's it's tough. and and I you know and I have to tend to. the rest of my life too. So it's um. >> I do the stuff I do all the stuff but. I'm not a robot. >> and none of this is a is a closed loop. I don't do the wellness stuff to just. keep doing the wellness stuff. It's. always been a way to support the rest of. my life. I'm fortunate that I like. exercise. I like yoga nudra. I like. morning sunlight. But I do all those.

things to raise up the level that I can. do all the other things. >> nice. >> and I integrate them. Um, you know, and. I think this notion of health. influencers has become a little bit of a. a thing where that's all people do. Um, but that's not realistic for most. people. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Coming back to our previous. discussion, I had this question. Can you. build courage? >> Can you build courage? Absolutely. >> Absolutely. Yeah. Incremental. You get. people to their to their edge of.

agitation and you let them just live. their life. >> Like someone who's not courageous, can. they do something today or maybe start. doing something from today which will. help them become courageous. >> if they want to if they want to become. courageous. I mean as cliche as it. sounds the cold water thing is it builds. mental resilience and the reason is that. it is a very reliable and provided you. don't make it too cold you just do cold. shower it really does consistently. reliably cause a fast release of. adrenaline and all of anxiety and stress.

involves this like deployment of. adrenaline in the body that makes us. feel agitated our prefrontal cortex is. lowered in activity for the first 20 or. 30 seconds it's harder to strategize we. just want to go anywhere except where. we're at. And the goal, the the. resilience training is to learn to just. ride out that first 20, 30 seconds. Then. adrenaline starts to subside. But the. way that I suggest people do deliberate. cold exposure is different than most. I. think people should pick a certain. number of what I call walls. So maybe.

like five walls. And maybe the first. wall to go over is just getting in the. cold shower. Then it's you instead of. counting or going for time, you sense. when you really want to get out. That's. another wall. You stay in just one more. Then you can kind of get comfortable. Then you wait until you really want to. get out again. You go over that wall. again. And what you'll notice is those. are waves of adrenaline, which is much. more realistic. It's much more like the. real world where you're doing public. speaking where you're not going for.

time. You're not trying to relax for 3. minutes. You're trying to [snorts]. deal with whatever comes your way. And. so you can learn to be resilient to your. own physiology. And again, provided it's not an ice ice. cold bath and you don't want to become. hypothermic. Don't stay in longer than 3. minutes. Cold shower is fine. But you. can build in a lot of resilience. Earlier we were talking about workouts, but you could do this with anything. Like the other day I was doing a workout. in my gym and it was it was warm. It was. really warm and I was about to walk over. and turn on the AC and I'm like, "No,

let's make it hotter. Turn on the heat. Dude, two more sets. Best sets I had in. ages. Little resilience training. Like, just make I'm not a massochist. Let's. just make it Let's not always go for. comfort. Let's just make it a little. hot, harder, not easier. And then I. showered. I swear the rest of my day was. so much better. You know, some days it's. the opposite. I just like I I need air. conditioning. You know, some days, you. know, it depends. I mean, I know it can. get very hot and humid in certain parts. of India. So, you know, so I don't.

always do that. Um, but occasionally. during the workout, I'll warm up. I'll. listen to music. I'm working out or. listening to and then I go, you know. what? Silence. I just want to focus as. much as humanly possible on every. repetition. But after three, four sets. of that, I want to go back to listening. to some music. And then I know the tail. end of a workout is typically when. people get hurt, uh, front end and tail. end because you're kind of distracted. So, I turned off the music and I'm just. going to go for just really focus. It's. like great. That was like a There's an.

art of doing a a great workout. And some. days you just drink your energy drink. and just go go all out. But it was good. It was a It was a The same way, you. know, I was in a difficult conversation. the other day and I thought, I'm going. to just resist the urge to say anything. I'm just going to like be the guy that. just nods. It was so hard. >> Yeah. >> So hard because I I have a lot of. thoughts and opinions, especially about. what was being said. And I just got to. the end. I was like, "Okay." And then I.

said what I need to say and I'm so glad. I did it. Right. But it was it was work. >> Yeah. >> It was work. And it wasn't because I was. being personally attacked. I just. fighting that impulse. So I think. learning to fight our impulsivity. Listen, this is this stuff of great. leadership that I don't, you know, I'm. not super skilled at, but I'm trying to. build up, right? Because when you're the. main guy, this is one thing that comes. with success. when you're the main guy, most things fall in around you. >> Yeah. >> You, you know, like you're dialed.

everything, you know, it's about you. being dialed in, you know, and it can. make um us, it can make people in. positions of leadership um we can become. impatient. We're used to things. happening on a certain pace, you know, it can make us impatient. So, you know, next time something's slow, it's like, all right, I'm going to like this is a. good practice, but it's hard to stay. there. you know, we're not no one's. striving for perfection. I think pick a. short time scale and try and get. something better out of it, you know,

and I have to be very very clear about. that. Have some mindless ways to reset. I have them. I like watching. documentaries. [snorts] Um I love. hanging out with uh my girlfriend and. the dog and we just like we you know, we. call it uh you know like we cave to. love. Like there's these moments where. we're just like no more work, no more. dishes, no more doing anything. We're. just going to like the we're just going. to relax the three of we're just going. to completely relax and after 10 15. minutes we move back into our time like. learning how to just completely.

and I cover it. I'm like I'm exhausted. and then you get back in business. Let's. go. >> And I that and it's a very that's one of. the most powerful things I think um to. just give yourself permission to just in. a healthy way be a child every once in a. while and just go and then back in it. let's go posture up and like let's get. serious again, you know, because. otherwise if you're grinding the gears. all the time, >> that's just no fun. Yeah. Also, there's. a once you and you you're there now,

right? But people can anticipate this. soon if they're they're not and they're. staying in this trajectory. the real. the real top layer and I know this from. observing people in other fields, tech. and medicine and the arts and um and. then in podcasting too and finances that. the top top layer is the ultra. discipline superfocused. but an element of playfulness cuz ne cuz.

they're just so secure. they can now. just like have that fun and they're not. try they just cuz they they won they won. the game and so now they can just have. fun and that all this incredible stuff. comes out of that and so that's that's. the thing that like you know the that we. should all aspire to that's the peace. that's the peace the joy that comes with. it and but don't expect that in in the. first couple years no way no chance um.

wins you're going after wins and you're. building your confidence That's how you. do it. But uh it that's there for for. you. >> You know, you you mentioned a couple of. games right now like what you do with. the turn on the heat and do certain. things in order to build resilience like. let's make it more. >> uh something that people can follow. immediately. Give me. >> give me like top three mental games that. people can play. >> to build resilience. >> All right. I woke up this morning. I did. not want to get out of bed. I was super.

tired and did not get enough sleep. And. I do before I get out of bed, I do this. every morning. I do 10 breath. meditation. If I can't concentrate, I. tell myself, if I can't concentrate for. 10 breaths, how in the world am I going. to go about my day? [snorts] Sometimes I. have to get to number six. You drift. You have to set an alarm because you can. easily go back to sleep, especially with. long exhales. 10 breath meditation. before you let yourself get out of bed. in the morning, especially on the. mornings where you really have to get up. and use the bathroom. >> Now, even harder. Okay,

in your workouts, not in your warm-ups, but in your work sets, your goal is to. make those as hard as possible, not as. easy as possible. So, as focused as you can possibly be, when. it really is tough, you're going to do. everything you can to make it even. harder. You're going to try and contract. the muscle even harder using using that. weight. That's another one. with respect. to any challenging interaction whether. it's with the internet or with someone.

else or it's like too many texts. incoming you're feeling overwhelmed the. whole business of it is to just it's. this detach thing that is about taking. your gaze and getting it extended into. the entire room or space that you're in. because we get very narrow focus there's. a real neuroscience to this we get this. tunnel vision and something feels. overwhelming because it's almost like. drinking from a fire hose Then you kind. of like dial it out and you go and. that's where you get the your autonomic. nervous system adjusts and you're like I.

can do this and now you just start. picking things off one by one. This is. actually a tool that um Jaco Willink and. I talked about him and from his military. career that we arrived at independently. but I'll occasionally do it while. podcasting where I feel like we're. really in the tunnel. We're there and I. just to sort of like dial out and I just. in my mind I think let's invite in some. novelty here. I don't know what it is, but just kind of like let's make sure. that we're not too far down some some. road, right? So, that's a good one. But. if you're feeling overwhelmed, this is. very good. You just simply they you.

simply it's you wouldn't even detect it. You just start viewing the the ceiling. and the floor and the things that you. see ourselves in this context kind of. takes you out of it. Gives you it. releases some of the stress in your mind. that allows you to come up with novel. ways. New abilities come from that. I. have a friend, he's a um a coach for. professional basketball team. He's not. the head coach, but he's a performance. coach. And oftentimes when guys are. moving down court, they're so focused. that they don't see opportunities and. they don't see defenders that can, you.

know, thwart their efforts. And so what. they need to do is dilate their gaze and. they start seeing things in new ways and. you can see new opportunities. So it's. the same thing the brain afford you. afford resource more brain resources. when you do that. Um, and then the the. last one is I think there's a very. useful way to use memory that normally. people their memory of the past is about. things that didn't work out. I think. everyone should have some thing that. worked out and you return to that. You.

survived the hard thing. You're still. here. You're still breathing. Sometimes. it's that basic or you know your case or. someone else like you built that. You. built that which simply means you can. build another thing and build you can. build on this. You can like you have. that in you. It was you that did that. and to really acknowledge your own. agency in that you didn't do it alone. but that you did that. You took it from. nothing. Had you not decided and done. the things had you not decided to and. then done the things it would not exist.

You need to internalize that because you. really recognize your own capacity and. you can bring that forward. But I admit. that uh throughout the day there are. many opportunities um that I try to take. of like doing the slightly harder thing. This is something that Andy Stump also. talks about the slightly harder thing. Like you see that little piece of thing. on the ground. Do you pick it up or do. you go like you do it? You do it because. it's hard. I confess I'm not that good. at that. I hate folding and putting away. my clothes. I absolutely hate it. I was.

I would pay any amount of money to have. somebody else do it, but occasionally I. just like throw and I I don't know what. it is. It's my it's like my vice. Sounds. so trivial, right? Um so I let myself. sometimes leave some clothes out. Like. I'm human. I'm I'm like in the. playfulness of that and and how. hilarious it is that I for all the other. things that I'm able to do that are hard. can't seem to just fold a shirt properly. and put it away. Okay. You know, like Okay. Like would it.

be better if I did it? Yeah. But and and. also like so I that that again is that. thing of pick your pick your masochism. but have but but be thoughtful about it. I do think that if someone were to watch. my podcast or to watch your podcast and. watch Gogggins and all these people it. could feel overwhelming like oh my. goodness is my life supposed to be all. right angles and no no we're human. Yeah. I you know I like to think that we're. both human. I I know I am. So. >> I am way more human.

>> Yeah. Well, but you also are are 29. years old. I'm 50 years old. So you have. more plasticity available. And I think the the mental trick that I. think is the most important one is you. have to see your life as as an. adventure. You get to write your own. story. >> True. I like I I really I I believe that. um somebody's listening to this and that. for them it's not about you or me. It's. like it's about them and they're out.

there and they're thinking like could I. do it? I don't know if I could do it. I. will tell you right now I was that guy. I was in my lab listening to Tim Ferrris. podcast and other podcasts. I'm thinking. like reading books, hearing about people. long before there were podcasts and like. I was like I wanted to be like these. people who built things and strived and. did creative things and did things that. were outside the box. And I actually had. this dorky little list of names is so. silly of some artists, some musicians, people that some I've met but many. [clears throat] of whom I'll never meet.

cuz they've passed some scientists and. some other people that I wanted to be. like in certain ways. So dorky, right? But I still have that list. And I was. like, and now I've actually met a few of. the people and some of them were really. cool. No disappointments there. And I'm. like, "Oh, that's wild." Like it I for. lack of a better word, I manifested. that. But I didn't manifest it by just. sitting in a chair and thinking about. it. I went for it. [snorts] But I was. the person going like, I don't know. I'm. like a professor in a lab, but I have. these other interests and, you know, but.

I can't seem to stop seeking out this. knowledge and sharing it with people. and I had no concept of having a. podcast. So if you're that person out. there, like go for it because I was that. person and you were that person. >> Absolutely that person. >> And don't let the amount of information. out there overwhelm you. Just pick your. stuff and go and don't try and do it. all. just pick and you I guarantee I. [snorts] look forward to the day that. someone or or several people are sitting.

down saying we heard this conversation. >> and we're like okay I can be part I can. be colleagues with these guys or I can. pass them who knows maybe they're going. to come try and take what we've got but. you have to work pretty hard if you're. going to but I know you can do it or try. um and [snorts] they're going to they're. going to have their thing hopefully. something different hopefully because I. do think that the best work is is. non-competitive. This is actually. important point. My friend Rick Rubin. points this out about the creative arts. I was watching this documentary recently. about rock climbing and um I'm not a.

rock climber, but competition can. motivate you from time to time, but it's. not going to bring about your most. creative work. You want a a an. individual unique unique vision of. something. And it can look a lot like a. lot of other things. It might even look. the same to other people, but that's. your vision. And if you start comparing. it to other people, sure you can borrow. and trade things that you think are. cool. Discard things you don't think are. cool, but like build your your life.

story. I'm a neuroscientist turned. podcaster, still neuroscience professor, whatever, whatever. You have your story. Everyone has a unique story, and that's. that's what the world wants. They don't. want another one of you or another one. of me or another, you know, Steven. Bartlett or Tim Ferris or Rogan or Lex. Freeman. Like that there, those guys are. those guys and we're us. And build out. the new thing. It can look a lot like it. can still be a podcast or whatever, but. build your own beautiful painting of.

your of your vision. That's that would. make me happier than anything if someday. somebody wrote and was like, I heard. that. I went for it. And every time. someone says, "Well, yeah, but it's. hard, but there's a lot of podcasts like. like that should be your answer or and. just keep going." I you know, you you're. like this. You get excited. You get. excited by looking at other people. You. also get excited by challenges as much. as I can hear, >> right? There are so many people,

>> they're addicted to comfort. And then. there are people like you who are. addicted to challenge. why some people. are addicted to comfort and why some. people are addicted to challenge. >> Yeah, you know. two answers. One is very kind of rigid. and I don't know which one is true. Um. one is maybe people have just different. mental and physical pain thresholds. >> Um I I know when I stub my toe it hurts. and then it stops hurting. [laughter] So.

um I don't seek out pain, physical pain. Um. but. I don't know. So m maybe you know maybe. our human species is divided into. builders and sustainers. I don't want to. say like people who are just I don't. like the builder taker thing. There's. some takers in the world but most people. I think are trying to be good people. most people um. but maybe people have not ever. conceptualized themselves in in the kind. of life adventure builder.

frame framework. Um I think a big test. of it is whether or not when they see. some when somebody sees somebody else. striving and doing well, does it make. you feel good or does it make you feel. overwhelmed? When I see somebody. striving and doing well, I'm like, "Yeah, like I can take some of I don't. want to take from them. I can feed off. that energy. It feeds me. That's the. right language. It feeds me. They're. going. I'm getting I'm like, "Yes." I. mean, it's so cool. Like, this thing I. observed this morning and this. conversation fundamentally change the.

way that I think about things going. forward. Um, all of which is generative. What can I learn from you? And I've. already learned from you. So, I'm. grateful. Really, I'm not just saying. that as a formality or to, you know, to. be kind. It was It's just true. you it's. clear especially for someone at 29 like. you have a very um you have a big. picture perspective that certainly I. didn't have at 29 [laughter]. and um and that uh and great leadership. qualities to you know yeah really I mean.

you're the host but you have like sort. of a there's a calm in you and a and a. kindness but also a drive clearly that. um that fosters uh. real feelings of safety I can say that. as your guest cuz I've been on a number. of podcasts where you kind of feel like. some someone's trying to pull something. I don't get any of that. So, appreciate. that. Something I I work to cultivate on. my own podcast and I don't know cuz I've. only been the host, not the guest, but. that I I I'm going to think about some.

of this more. Um certainly. And then my. friend seeing him do this, you know, incredible act of medicine and science. and um just like, you know, he's at the edge. He's at the. frontier of science discovering new. brain areas using the most modern. technologies, AI. He's also a. bioengineer because he's like a phenom. And I see that and I go, "Wow, like I'm.

inspired to do better." Um, and and. maybe some people are like, and this is. perfectly fine, will hear or see things. like that and and and go, "Cool." Like, I just love watching a great soccer game. as a spectator. >> and I'm not inspired to go do anything. with it. I just want to see my team win. And that's cool, too. That's not me, but. that's cool. And uh, but I see Mezzi and. I think like, [snorts] what's he doing? Like, how does he like what's he doing?

And uh and how can I. I don't think there's anything that. special about any one person in history. or currently. I just think some people. are just have. some have gifts. Sure. And. opportunities, but I think they just. channel their efforts and. >> interesting. >> Yeah. I I I think we I really think we. are, you know, it sounds cliche, but I. think that we we all have the. opportunity to build beautiful things in. our lives at whatever scale and um and.

that's, you know, humans at their best. >> But, you know, this is this this has a. lot to do with your identity, how you. see yourself. And because you see you. think this about yourself, you look at. other people as well and you look at. other human beings and you think they. can do beautiful things as well, right? But someone out there is listening to. you and is feeling like a loser right. now. >> How can that person change his or her. identity to start feeling like a winner.

or start feeling like they can do some. of the beautiful things which you just. described? >> Yeah. Well, it's it's a verb action. So, and I want to be clear, I've had. hardship. I mean, less than some, more. than others, but you know, the the. collapse of my family early on in life. was very disruptive to me. and um in. ways that. I mean I've moved through, but it was. it's just very like I hear about your. family and I'll I'll be very honest and. there's a bit of like a I I'm super. happy for you. I I I'm delighted. Um but.

there's a little bit of like I I get a. little bit of like man like. that would have been awesome. Some small. fraction of that now, but I had some of. that in certain forms for a certain. amount of time and then you just go and. I was born into a healthy body. Let's. go. We got we got work to do. Huberman, you know, so you can't you can't live. there, right? But so I've had some. hardships certainly lost for for someone. who was not in the military or didn't. grow up in the inner city. I've lost a. all three of my scientific colleagues.

died young. My my mentors, suicide, cancer, cancer. I was very close with. all of them. In particular, the second. one had a lot of friends die. And you. learn to just kind of keep going and. take those at losses and keep cycling. forward. In fact, there's a protocol for. grief, you know, in my book to deal with. grief because most people think it's. just anger, acceptance, and then what is. it like? There's anger, acceptance, denial, and then eventually you find. peace or that's not how grief works at. all. Grief is about. the nervous system thinking there's an.

action to take around somebody and not. being able to complete the call or see. them. It's this like impulse to oh, like. your nervous system thinks they're still. there and they're not. And there's so. it's an unfulfilled expectation. It's. like reaching for food when you're very. hungry and it's coming towards your. mouth and it disappears. That's what. grief is like. And so you have to go. through certain science supported things. in order to allow that that circuit to. shift into a different framework where.

it's really about the past but your. nervous system is still trying to do. this. So you know I still deal with some. of these things but the person who. is like hears this and is like oh I feel. like a loser. Well, you're comparing to. the end state of having quote unquote. won. I'm talking from my position now, but there were years where I was had. very little money. You know, as an. academic, I living in the Bay Area, okay, I wasn't in absolute poverty, but. it was really a struggle. It was really. a struggle at times. Um, all sorts of.

challenges of loss and things of that. sort. So, there were some dark days in. there for sure. I I think it boils down. to. something that I was told and I never. articulated it myself, but this is what. was going through my head for year after. year after year for decades, which is. losers. take things that happened to them and. indeed sometimes that is are things that. happened to them that they could not. control.

or missteps or errors or losses. is and. they ruminate on it and they turn those. thoughts and those emotions into things. that harm themselves. or others. Winners take the things that. happen to them, good or bad, and. they transmute that sometimes through. very hard work that involves talking to. oneself, reminding oneself, journaling.

things out, forcing oneself to make. better decisions. and they take those. hard things and they turn them into. actions that are supportive and indeed. generative for them and for others in. the world. Period. End of story. Now. those are just words. So the question is. how? Well, the first thing is to. acknowledge that both losers and winners. have hard thoughts and emotions and. feelings of despair. Okay. [gasps].

The shift is not one of, oh, I'm just. going to be a winner. I'm going to take. all the hard stuff and just think good. thoughts and do good things. No, you. literally have to force that on yourself. over and over and over. Sometimes. multiple times per hour or every 5. minutes. But you cannot let yourself. attack, selfattack or attack others. You. cannot do it. Whatever you So sometimes. the best thing to do is nothing. You.

can't get into a generative state. You're focusing on something really. hard. Okay? Just feel the feelings, but. don't do anything. Don't get up out of. your chair. But then eventually, you get. up out of your chair and you do. something. What you don't do is self harm or harm. others. That could be with words. It. could be physically. It could be by not. going to work, not going to school, just, you know, smoking weed and playing. video games, indulging in porn, saying, you know, horrible things to yourself,

giving up on the world. That's the. default for many people. So, you have to. ratchet yourself over towards that other. side. But once you do that, you realize, oh, all of the control is in my mind, and there's nothing outside of me that's. actually going to teach me that process. I mean this is the one danger of. anything inspirational is that it comes. from the outside and it can be very. useful. It can be like a rung on a. ladder that we can pull ourselves. forward on. But ultimately you pulled. that yourself forward and that's the. thing to focus on. It was your action. that brought you forward. So then you.

learn how to do it when the rung isn't. there. You set a mental rung. Okay, I'm. going to do nothing for 5 minutes. because everything I want to do is just. destructive. I made it 5 minutes. I'm in the driver's. seat at least a little bit and you just. go. Now, this is especially hard to do. between the hours of 1 and 5:00 a.m. when you're underslept. Very hard to do. when you had alcohol in your system. Very hard to do when you um are going. through a breakup or a loss and when you.

have multiple stressors. So, that's. where the tools of. learning to turn your mind off. Look in. it costs nothing but time. That's where. you try it the first time, you can't do. it, try it again, keep doing it, you get. better. It's a skill like lifting. weights or running or writing or playing. an instrument. That divergence of, you know, loser mentality, winner. mentality. It's not calling people. loser. It's a think verbs. What what am. I doing that's promoting a this like. loser mentality? What am I doing that's.

promoting winner mentality? And you got. to dig yourself out of that hole and no. one can do it for you. And help will. come when you're headed in the right. direction. And people say, "Well, when I. did that, no one helped me." All right, maybe you need to go a little bit. further. I, you know, I I I do empathize. and and sympathize with people that feel. like there's they're on their own and. there's no one there to help them. But. in that case, there's only one there's. only one way out and that's out, you. know. And um the M and just acknowledge.

that the mind is crazy. It goes crazy. places and it and it wants to, you know, drag us down sometimes and you just. don't don't throw more dirt on top of. yourself by by like giving into that. Like I think we're talking about being a. dreamer, being inspired, but like be a. fighter, too. Like learn to be a. fighter. Like learn to learn to fight. yourself. That when they say like the. the the hardest fight is in in your own. mind. Absolutely. So start with the. basic things. Learn to meditate for 10. breaths. Fight the agitation. Learn to.

stay in a cold shower for three minutes. Learn to turn off your thoughts with. yoga nidra. That's a lot harder than the. other two things. >> True. >> So, this can all be done. I know with. with certainty it can all be done. because I did it. And people say, "Well, you had certain things available to. you." Listen, I didn't they didn't hand. me a PhD. I had to work for it. They. didn't hand me a podcast. I had to work. for it. And um yeah, like my life's been. easier, way easier than it has been for. others and way harder than it has been.

for others. It's all what you make of. it. It's all what you make of it. >> True. You know, do you think at this. time when somebody's feeling like this. absolute they are low, there's no. connection, there no people, there's no. one to hold their hand and like, you. know, hold their hand and get them out. of the right? Do you think what we. were talking about earlier that you. should strip away everything? Do you. think it's the right time to do it? Should people strip away everything when. they are. >> strip away everything meaning. >> like you would. >> just give up control you you were saying.

in the beginning that you know sometimes. it's good to just strip away everything. just have oxygen just a place to sleep. and you were saying something and I we. started to talk. >> yeah break it down to to the the. absolute basics. You're here. You're. breathing. Awesome. You're doing better. than a lot of people. Um it's not going. to feel that good though. that that. alone isn't going to be like, "Oh, great. I'm breathing." Okay. Some people. will even think sadly that they wish. they weren't. Okay. [snorts] Well, you're here. So, I would advise, and I.

realize this might sound a little bit. loaded, but I would advise if you are. really at the bottom of your pit, obviously that you need to seek help, but. ask whatever you believe in. Okay? I. believe in God. But whatever you believe. in, just acknowledge out loud alone or in. your head if you don't want anyone to. hear you. I'm at my end. I can't do this on my own.

anymore. Just help me get through the. next hour. Just go another hour. Just help me do. that. Just help me. What? Ask if you. want to ask God, do it. if you want to. ask the universe, whatever it is, you. know, and just stop trying to control every. aspect in your mind. Now, I just got. through saying that you have to like. pull yourself back over to the right. response, but if you truly can't do that, then. it's time to.

give it over and just acknowledge, you. know, have a good laugh out loud. It's. hard to be human sometimes. >> It's beautiful. It's great, but it can. be really hard to be human. >> Yeah, >> it can be really tough. We're a weird. species. We got this amazing prefrontal. cortex and we can do amazing things with. it. But sometimes it loops back on us. and it we just like we're it. flagagillates us and we can't and we're. like ah I can't break out of this. That's when it's time to say okay I.

can't. So, I'm going to give this. process just like help me go another. hour. and I I guarantee you'll get there. And. I have my thoughts about why that might. work. None of them fall within the realm. of science. So, it's not really worth me. going into because it's not my. expertise, but I've never seen this. fail. But once you're back on slightly. solid ground, now you got to get to work. because the universe only, whatever, God, the universe, whatever you believe. in, only rewards.

effort or the effort to engage in. effort. You don't, we've been gifted. life. We can relax. We can enjoy, but we. don't get to uh we don't get to waste. it. >> And we really we we're here. I mean, maybe that's what the acknowledging that. we're alive and breathing piece is. about. like like don't take it for. granted. Like I I do think that we're. rewarded for any amount of effort that. we we put in. Any amount maybe not in. getting the thing we thought we were.

going to get, but in the recognition. that we can we can pursue things. So I I. believe in this very strongly because. I've been at the bottom of that pit and. wondering what in the world. But the. good news is if you hit the bottom of. that pit and you get out a few times, the next time you hit it, you go, "I'll. get out the next time.". >> Yeah. And then you go, "Well, this feels. a little longer than the last time or a. lot longer." You will get out. You do. People have suffered incredible. challenges. >> And they got out and created amazing. things. And there's this weird law of.

the universe that I don't quite. understand. Maybe it's a dopamineergic. thing, but the depth of that pit oftent. times is the mirror image of the height. of the thing that you're going to. accomplish. I don't know how that works, but you later you're going to find. yourself at a peak and you should. remember and go, "Yeah, got out, got out, went back in, went back in, got out. Now I'm here, and. I'm going to savor it a little bit.

more." Because that's I think also us. being tested. Are you going to savor it? You're going to appreciate it? You're. going to share it? Because then we can. build on it. But otherwise you might not. end up in the pit but you kind of drop. back down again. You know it's um but if. you take good care you can stay at a. high level for a long time. >> True. >> You know I have I want to change a gear. a little bit and just talk about two. three last things. >> Sure. >> Which is one is have you ever studied. immigrants by any chance? >> Well my father is a first generation.

immigrant to the United States. So I. haven't studied them specifically but um. you know. >> like immigrants consistently seem to. outperform. the you know native people in anywhere. any part of the world right. >> Oh yeah especially their the children of. native people. >> Exactly. Like and in America every day. we hear about stories of immigrants who. are just killing it everywhere you look. at the top position they're just. immigrants or the kids of immigrants. right? Why and how?

>> Great question. And I think it's because. they look around and they see. opportunity. Everywhere else somebody. sees neutral or negative. I think it's. this fighter mentality. It's a there's. there's some there's something here that. people who've been here a long time. don't appreciate or they do, but there's. stuff wide open. You know, my high. school girlfriend, her father had a um. like a I think he had like a seventh. grade education. He'd been a taxi driver. and a few things. He had worked from a.

young age cuz he was very poor. He moved. to the Bay Area and he carried hundreds. of keys on his key ring because he early. on. bought uh properties in the South Bay. Bay Area when no one was interested in. these areas and he did all the. maintenance himself. >> and they did very well for themselves. because then this thing called Silicon. Valley happened and then property became. very useful and then next thing you know. his his daughters had horses and you. know all this stuff and but he was a. hardworking guy and first generation.

immigrant. I think he saw opportunity. He was like, I could I think to his. mind, why would he pay anyone to do the. maintenance? First of all, I don't think. he could afford it at first, but he had. the skills. Next thing you know, he's. the guy owning huge swaths of land and. property in in the South Bay area, Silicon Valley, which is extremely. lucrative. But he did it through sheer. sweat. >> Sheer sweat. So, I think there's just a. this idea like there's something here. that there's resources that others. aren't taking because they think it it's. every day. It's like what what good is.

that place? What good is this school? What is like it's around you? We. attenuate to things around us. >> And I think that and you also can see. this isn't always true, but many times. multigenerational. families where there's a lot of wealth, you know, you have kids that don't do. well or you kids that just, you know, too many resources can be tough, too. >> Yeah. >> It's a it's a tricky balance. So I think. that the immigrant mentality is one of. seeing opportunity and taking. opportunity and it's on a backdrop of.

people who are not. looking at that environment in the same. way. They they attenuate. I mean this is. a weird thing about the human brain is. we we habituate to a certain level of. caloric intake to a certain level of of. freedom and ease and peace. So this is. why self-imposed friction is very. valuable, especially if you are come. from a a family where there is not a lot. of hardship. I mean it's impressive. you've self-imposed hardship through a. vision of yourself and what you can.

create for the world. Um many people. can't do that that too. They feel ease, >> you know. I mean, look, everyone loves a. good foot rub and a big meal and a the. great night's sleep and all the rest, but um. some of the most unhappy people I know. are people that never strived for. anything. In fact, the most unhappy. people I know of my peer group were the. ones whose parents gave them just enough. money so that they never really had to. push themselves.

And they're the ones with a lot of. depression, a lot of issues of. self-worth, a lot of um yeah, you got. you gota it's good to have your head. held under water for a short while so. you can appreciate oxygen when you come. up, you [laughter] know, so to speak. So. to speak, that's a that's a I'm I'm not. being literal there. [laughter] Um yeah, you go. >> Do you think that. >> Yeah. >> But do you think that changes your brain. from the inside? Like does it wire. something that does the the neurology or.

like the chemistry inside my brain. changes if I go through certain. hardships in my life? >> Absolutely. Because. what's so important for people to. understand about the brain is that it as. much as it learns facts. It learns algorithms. It learns. friction. I got out of friction. >> or in some cases friction, it crushed. me. So now you need to teach it a new a. new contingency. You need to teach a new. algorithm. So you need those. That's why.

I said like shorten the horizon. You. need some small wins so we can learn, oh. that's what a win looks like. I made it. an hour. But people who have who are. dealing with something are thinking like. ah I can't get out of this mindset. Well, you got out of it long enough to. say that sentence. If you shorten the. horizon, then they can do it a little. longer and a little longer and a little. longer. This is why the cold water. thing, the exercise thing, um. constructing your days the way that. we're talking about, you start doing. those things and you realize that you. are in more control than you think. But. some people are very plagued by a very.

um punishing, destructive inner voice. And that it's a tough one. But you got. to learn to turn that one off. Or. you know the Gogggins approach. He. listens to criticism of himself while he. runs. He's learned to channel it into. this kind of FU response. You know, I. don't want to live there. But. >> me neither. >> But I I known David a long time. actually. I I I met him first time in. 2016 before he had a book or anything. else. He was always super driven. And. knowing his story a bit, I think he had.

to figure out a way because the voice in. his head was so destructive. He had to. turn it into a different version of. himself. Acknowledge that it came from. the outside and create this whole new. version of himself. He has multiple. people in there. All him. He's very, you. know, psychologically healthy. I do. believe that. Um, but he has to do the. like no, no, no to these certain voices. and like the only voice I'm going to. listen to is the one that's going to. pull me forward. And that's a that's a.

battle I don't think any of us would. want to live in. But, uh, David is. special because of what he's done. But. what he's trying to tell people, I do. believe, is that they can do it too, but. they have to change their frame. They. can't expect those voices to turn off. I. think you and I are pro if I I don't. know. I've never been in your head. I. don't I stay out of people's heads, but. um speculating about David, but I I I. don't live with that voice in my head. >> Me neither.

>> I don't live with universal. You're. perfect. You're loving. You're all this. stuff. You're loved. I I. but I don't live with a punishing voice. in my head. And that's got to be very. hard. So, I want to acknowledge that's. got to be hard. But you got to turn the. volume down on that one. or crank it up. to 10 and fight it the whole way through. and but you learn the algorithm of how. to do it. >> You know all of these things which we. talked about regulation in in terms in. particular terms it's going to get. harder because of technology.

>> Yeah. >> Do you think so? >> Like you know every technology if I have. to make it specific like how. >> they made one part of our life more. difficult. Yeah, >> let's say memory became more difficult. since we had phones. >> Navigation became difficult since we had. >> Google maps. >> And now maybe thinking is going to be. difficult because of AI. >> We trade it. Yes, I agree that we trade. um skills for convenience. You know, we.

don't cook cuz we can order Door Dash. Love Door Dash. like food like you know. few years ago I didn't order food much. but now it's clearly the much more. efficient and even economical way to go. um much of the time but I know how to. cook if I need to [gasps]. with thinking I think we need to be just. be careful right I don't eat junk food. door dash every day I also cook some. meals right I think um like I use chat. GPT to self- test myself on material. generate a self- test about this it's a.

great way to self- past. Um, I think AI. is going to really positively transform. the world. I really do. But I born and. raised in Silicon Valley and I've seen. the way that people get fear of job. replacement. It happens a bit. You know, few years ago was the learn to code. thing and then now you don't really need. to know how to code. I think there's. still some value in knowing how to code, but you get the point. Um, I think all technologies do this. They.

point out our most vulnerable and our. most generative sides and we just have. to be very careful. I think with the. phone, practice putting it into a lock box or. if you don't need a lock box into a. drawer for a few hours and doing some. focused work per day and coming back to. it. Just practice it. If you can't do. that, you have a what's called a. problem. Do it and you'll feel better. You might be anxious when you are away. from it, but learn to ride that out. And. don't I I think part of it is that. humans don't like to be controlled. Deep.

down we don't like to be controlled. So. if you recognize you're being controlled. now you stand a chance to fight back. I. mean humans fighting back is the story. of human evolution. Humans being too. cold and fighting back against being. cold is what allowed them to you know. fire, electricity and so forth. Being. too warm has allowed them to build air. conditioning and ice and refrigerators. So, you know, wanting to get places more. quickly to see like telephones that pick.

any example. The the friction point is. where and this is a theme that seems to. be coming up again and again today. You. have to get right up to that friction. point. Oh, you wasted 3 hours on social. media doing nothing. I think you can. learn on social media and you can be. entertained, but 3 hours. Okay, now you. really feel bad about yourself. That's a. friction point. Great. Set a rule. You get an hour. >> 20. I have social media on a separate. phone. So I have an older phone has.

Instagram and X. That phone is either. with me or if it's becoming a problem. for me, it goes into a Supermax prison. lock box. You can buy one for like 15. bucks. Program it in. You cannot open. it. You cannot open it. And just leave. it in there for like when I go in for a. workout, I know the hardest part is not. hopping on my phone during the rest. periods. So I lock it in there for two. hours. I can't even get it out. >> You just have to enfor you you have to. self- enforce. Now the good news for. people who are striving is that now more.

than ever GoGan says this, it's easier. to get ahead. You read a book, nobody. does that. Do you read a book, it's. still enriching. You listen to a book, you listen to a podcast start to finish, you uh you have good relationship to. your phone and social media, you're like. moving into the winner category just by. virtue of what you're not doing. Yeah, >> it's still hard, but it never it's never. been easier to move ahead. Now, to me, it doesn't feel good to move ahead. because others are dropping behind. I'm.

not that guy, but I'm going to continue. to go and your generation is going to. continue to build things. I think the. the opportunities are greater than ever. uh for people to build businesses and. lives. The I think a lot of it does have. to do with not being purely consumer. And I think the simple question you. should ask yourself, am I a consumer or. a creator in this moment? Spend some. time being a creator every day, you're. going to be you're going to be okay. If.

you're purely a consumer every day, it's. tough. I mean, if you put aside your. entire life to watch World Cup, like I. see people getting really excited, but I. get it. You know, my dad's Argentine. he's not into soccer. Like if people. love World Cup and they're not that into. their jobs sometimes and they they you. know, but if you're going to be purely a. consumer, you're going to end up in a. place where you are spent out. So you. you have to you have to fight some of. these internal reflexes to just be a. consumer. >> Yeah. I I used to say this and I've been.

saying this I think six, seven years. now. Become the producer of the thing. that you consume the most. That's like. the easiest way for you to start working. on something. >> Yes. Yes. I love that. I I that perfect. Yes. As a scientist, I was like, I love. these papers. I want to do research in. this area. I'm going to do science and. publish papers in that area. Podcast. I. love these podcasts. I love these. themes. I'm going to do my own version. of something like that, but different. and create it. And I'm probably on the. second act of my career. I don't know.

what the third act will be, but I'm. going to do something else. It'll be. related to what I'm doing. I don't know. what it is. I truly have no idea. Will. you get into entrepreneurship, building. something? >> Yeah. Yeah, I could see myself doing. that. Um, I don't know. Or maybe. something really in the creative arts or. something like that, but I don't have. any musical talent. I I can draw. somewhat, but I don't know. It'll come. to me. I've called it in like. something's going to happen where I'll. naturally veer that way. But for the. time being, >> we're waiting for we're waiting for it. >> Yeah, it'll come. It'll come in in time.

>> You know, you have you studied brain. You study brain. You have almost answers. for like everything, right? you know at. least everything about what goes on in. the brain. But I was listening to one of. your one of your podcast or one of the. clips that I saw that you struggled with. romantic relationship. Right. >> I have. [clears throat] Things are good. now. >> Yeah. Now the answer are good but you. >> it took some time. Yeah. >> Right. So you you struggle with it. What's about love. >> that all the information in the world.

about neuroscience also cannot. understand. >> Oh so much. My goodness. Um, I would say. I know a to be fair, I I would say I. know a lot because I've spent a lot of. time studying it and researching it. directly. Like there's nothing. fundamentally. [snorts] different from just like. learning something in a textbook to like. actually putting your hands in brains, cutting brains, staining brains, recording neurons electrically. And you, you know, spending a lot of time in that. landscape. So I I wouldn't by no stretch. do I think I understand everything.

that's known about the brain. I know a. lot understand a lot of it. Um, and we. certainly don't know everything as a. field about the brain. There's still. tons to discover. So, just to be clear, I mean, romantic love is one of those. things where. when I said I've struggled with. relationships, um, I didn't struggle. with the love part. [laughter]. I struggled with the, um, not making [clears throat]. always the best choices about romantic. partners. um it's not putting the blame.

on them just and being caught up in the. feelings and then being disappointed. and the let down. And I think that what. I've learned is um love is can be a bit. of a drug. I don't want to take away. from it because it's also a beautiful. feature of life that is not drug-like, right? And it can be very sustaining, you know. Um it was odd for me to see. that there were certain areas of my life. like my romantic relationships where. things did were not working out in the.

long run as well as I had hoped and. whereas my friendships my career my. relationship to my biological family my. pets you know all that just flourishing. and flourishing like what what's going. on like you know and I think for me. the real key this was just for me was to. just slow down to really focus on the. friendship component first and really. take the time to get to know um to.

really take the time to get to know. someone and to really build the. friendship because I would remain. friends with people that I had dated and. we were on good terms but it's different. I think that um. for people that feel. love in a big way it's so easy there's a. whole script that comes from that okay. so So you do that and then you move in. together and then you or or maybe you. don't. Do do they still do arranged. marriages in India? >> Yeah. Is common? >> Yeah. >> Is it less common now?

>> Is it's still very common but the. numbers is significantly reducing but. still very common. >> and as I understand the outcomes in. terms of long-term uh like I want to say. prognosis sounds like a disease. long-term um success is very high. Right. Yeah. So maybe we're just going. about it all wrong in the west, you. know, but I I found that I was like, ah, like I' I've fallen really in love with. people and I still have wonderful. feelings about them and not all of them. I've had some challenging relationships.

and some better ones, but I'm on great. terms with with a lot of my exes and. they're married and in some cases not. and um still think about them and. communicate from time to time, you know, uh with tremendous um kindness and and. it's great. I think it's just a matter. of slowing things down and building that. real deep trust that this could because. you are in some sense trusting this. person with your life. >> Yeah. >> Right. I mean, it's a little bit of an. extreme statement, but there's no other.

perhaps besides children um level of. investment like that where you know this. person can really hurt you. by virtue of what they say, what they. do. And so you're you're handing them a. very powerful um I don't want to say a. weapon because it sounds so cynical. You're giving them a lot of power. >> When have you felt the most powerless in. your life? >> Well, that's a great question. You ask. hard questions, my friend. Um,

three times. The first time was when my parents split. and my whole focus at that time was not. on that. It was on wanting to make it in. this like skateboarding career and I. kept getting hurt and I wasn't very. good. This is kind of like the not so. secret secret. I I I talk a lot about. that time and I'm always clear to point. out like I was not going to be one of. the like guys that turned pro. I had. friends turning pro. I just I don't know. my body wasn't mature enough yet. I.

didn't have the spring and the strength. yet. You really need a lot of that and I. didn't have that then. Later I got. stronger but I moved on to other things. Um, I felt really alone like what's. going to happen with my life because my. home life was like blah and that was a. mess and school and and then I just. started spiraling and that's when things. got really bad and got myself into all. sorts of bad situations for a long time. and then dug myself out. So that was one. time. The second time was when my um.

graduate adviser died because we were so. close and my undergraduate adviser had. killed himself in a very dramatic. way at a particular time that was really. hard. Um and when my graduate adviser. when she died, she was very much like a. mother to me, very maternal. I know that. sounds a little bit like, well, you were. she was just your graduate adviser, but. I really loved and trusted her. I knew. her family. I know her daughter, one of. them is a neuroscientist now. I I. remember when she was pregnant with her.

daughters, I was friends with her. husband. They were like family to me. I. remember feeling like [snorts] like what. is this? And then when my third adviser. died, I thought like I'm cursed. Like. what is this? Because in science, your. scientific adviserss do a lot for you. They help you a lot, but they're also. just a pillars of stability that you can. call and talk to. So I thought you have. this family history, biological family. history, and now my academic parents. I'm like an academic orphan, literally. But then I realized. I can do whatever I want. But this time,

unlike when I was younger, I'm not going. to take that I can do whatever I want. because my parents are out of like back. then they weren't dead, but out of the. picture. I'm not going to be. self-destructive. I'm going to start. this podcast thing. And I don't have an. adviser to tell me, "Hey, this isn't a. good idea. I'm the adult now." Unlike. when I was 14, I'm like, I'm the adult. in my life. Now granted, I was in my. 40s, but I didn't in science, there's. this long-term, decadesl long thing. where advisers help their their.

underlings. It's a big thing. So I was like, I don't. have anyone. This is not rebellion, but. I'm totally free. Totally free. I'm. going to look into my heart. What do I. want to do? I'm going to build something. that is about science, but also health. and wellness. And I got a lot of. support, but a lot of people probably. thinking like, what is that thing? And a. lot of people now, you know, some have. come around, some haven't. Honestly, I. don't care. Like, I just hope they're.

happy doing what they're doing. So, that. was the second time, and I transmuted. that into goodness. This was the first. time I really my life got really choppy. early on, really bad. And then the third. time was, you know, I think a few years. back I had uh I had poured my heart and. soul into a relationship and it was the. wrong relationship, but I really did. pour my heart and soul into it. And then. when I realized that there were se. serious issues that I just couldn't.

resolve for them, I um I had to move on. And it was a very it was a messy messy. thing. And I remember thinking, gosh, like. being misunderstood about that is is. really hard because look, I think they. were doing the best they could. I was. doing the best I could with what we had. at that time. And I think that's the. hardest part. You know, earlier we were. talking about public life and criticism. I don't mind it either. It's being but. being misunderstood is very challenging. >> Yeah. And I had to do some real.

soulsearching and I and then I realized. that I was having all these challenging. thoughts. But then all around me was. this amazing thing. I've got this. podcast. I've got an amazing podcast. team. I'm a great relationship with my. parents who are in their 80s and are. healthy. Thank God. My sister who I. love, my niece who I love, my friends. I. have a, you know, a relationship came. into my life and like amazing friends. and opportunities and all of a sudden I. realized I'm like I'm sitting in the. promised land and I'm thinking about.

like this thing and how it relates to. these old things that didn't work out. and I thought. and I'm just like that's it. It was the. time it was I had to think about certain. things but then it was also time to just. like flick it off like a piece of lint. I'm done with all that. Let's go. And. ever since then, everything's been. healthy and great. And so, I do think. there's sometimes when it's as easy as. that where you just you shut the door. You know, the whole burn the boats. mentality like I'm just not going to. allow myself to to spiral.

So, u and I hope that was the last one, but but I'm human, so it probably come. again. Listen, I lately I think a lot. I. mean, it sounds like you're close with. your parents, too. I Yeah. I as. challenging as it's been in the past, I. I um I'm bracing myself. for my parents passing, even though. hopefully it's a long time from now. By. all accounts, they seem healthy, but. it's going to be hard to live like not. be able to call them. >> Yeah. >> And my mom probably will say, "Well, you.

don't call enough as it is." But but I. think about her a lot and uh and I we do. talk and um but that's life and you. can't live braced in fear of what's to. come or what could happen that then. you're like that person that we were. trying to talk to earlier. You just got. to [sighs]. protect your heart but move forward and. just and and live life. And and I do. believe I do say this and I mean it. If. God forbid I were to drop dead walking. out of this podcast like I'm good. I'm.

good. I have my I've done my will. You. know, that wasn't actually a very good. exercise for me. It's a kind of strange, right, to think about mortality. We. don't like to think about it to go I. could die. What would I want to make. sure happened for people? What do I want. to make sure people knew about how I. felt about them? This p every podcast I. go on is opportunity to learn and to. teach. Every time I can perhaps help. somebody, like I don't want to die, but. I'm I'm okay. I'm okay. Every time I hit.

turbulence, I go I'm I I've tried to. take myself to the edge, but not off the. edge my entire life. And it's a great. place to live because whether or not I. die at 50 or 90 or 110 or somewhere in. there, like I'm I'm good. I really am. I. I really I've made my peace with it. And. so, um, in part because I get these. amazing opportunities like to connect to. your audience and and to you. >> Thank you. We glad you did this. Thank.

you so much. Here's the last oneline. question that we ask every day. >> Yeah. It's. >> what's the cost of being Andrew. Huberman? >> The cost. >> Oh man, it's all love that it's all. upside these days. Which is not to say I. don't have difficulties. Um, okay. I'll actually answer your. question.

I experience emotions very intensely. I. think I got that from my mother. And I'm. also very ambitious. And I have a vision. of the world that I want to help. contribute to creating. And holding those two things. inside can be. challenging and sometimes can be. downright agony because I want to help. every single person. I want to drop into.

every single emotion, but I can't cuz. I've got work to do. I've got to keep. the bigger picture in mind. And the hard. work is thankfully these days it's not. about staying out of the deep trenches. I've moved past that. It's about. trying to stay in a mode of action and. striving but also peace. And so for me. um that just comes from gratitude, a. relationship to God and and prayer. And.

sometimes it's really hard. I'm like, everybody, I sometimes I feel like I'm. trying to run fast with my shoelaces. tied and uh. but I'm gonna keep going. That's that's. all I can do. It's all I've ever done. >> So, the cost is because you're so. ambitious, you can't help every loved one around. you, even though you feel very intensely. about them. >> Yeah. You know, it's funny. My my. girlfriend knows this about me. If I if.

someone stops me on the street, for. instance, it's like, "Oh, like I like. your podcast." Like I go, "What's your. name?" like I actually want to know. their name. What do you do? Like ah like. they'll ask me a question like I I'm not. playing a role when I do my podcast. I'm. they just popped a microphone in front. of me. I've always been that way. [snorts] and um and yet I can't have the. deep dive conversation with everybody. So that's why I podcast to get out to as. many people as possible. So sometimes. the pain is that um that I can't shake.

every hand and meet every person truly. I know it sounds like a some sort of PR. line, but it's true. Um, I. [clears throat] think everybody has a. light inside and I can feel that when I. meet them. I can like feel it. I don't. think I'm looking for it. I just shows. up. Sometimes it's different or brighter. to different contour, but I can like. feel and and I would I want to connect. with people. So, as a public person. behind a microphone or on a stage, you. realize this that you're connecting kind.

of out like this and it's coming back. and um I just have to appreciate that. And sometimes that's a bit of work, but. I feel very very blessed, very very. blessed to have this opportunity. You're. a special individual. I I have to say I. can I get a very good sense of people. and um certain domains of life I wasn't. so good at that. in the professional. realm and certainly across the table in. podcasting, I can like I'm sure I know. you have this skill too. You can like. feel somebody's genuine heart and their. mind. Clearly, you have a a very sharp.

mind and you're very driven, but um. you're like, you're not doing this for. kicks and you're not doing this for. money. You're doing this cuz you love it. and uh your heart really comes through. in it and your mind and you're throwing. everything you've got into it. I love. that. like you're all in and uh you've. made me feel very comfortable as a guest. in a way that um is not easy to do and. and that I wasn't resisting but um. really want to say thank you. You you've. created a wonderful thing and I I feel.

very lucky to have this opportunity. >> Thank you so much. It means a lot that. this is coming out of you like it means. a lot. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. >> I appreciate your time and everything. and I'm. >> Thank you for doing this on a very busy. day. >> Oh well, right back at you. uh we are. colleagues and uh hopefully we'll become. friends. >> Absolutely. Do many more conversations. on podcast and off podcast. >> I'd also someday like to visit India. I'll I'll buy my own ticket there but I. I I've always been intrigued. >> You tell me when. Let me host you.

>> Okay. >> You we will. >> you're going to lose your mind. I'm. going to Okay, perfect. Done. You just. you tell me what are your dates. Let me. design everything for you and you'll. love it. >> Okay. >> Let us do it. >> All right. You're on. >> Done. Okay, >> I'm excited. You should do it. >> Thank you so much for watching this. episode till the end. We would love to. know what you liked or disliked about. this episode and which guest you would. like to see again on this show or which. are the new guests that you want to see.

Let us know in the comments. Your. feedback helps us improve and make every. episode a little better. I'll see you. the next time. Until then, keep figuring. out. [music]. [music]. >> [music].