JRE MMA Show 178 with Dan Hardy

Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe. Rogan Experience. TRAIN BY DAY, JOE. ROGAN PODCAST BY NIGHT. ALL DAY. OH, YEAH. It's the Rogan. My man. Good. to see, brother. >> Great to see you, man. What is this? We're on the neck. What is that? Oh, this is moldavite. Have you heard of. moldavite before? >> No. So, a meteorite hit in the Czech. Republic. millions of years ago. And the the. particular tektite that was created from. the Earth matter falling back down to.

the the ground. uh became moldavite. And it's Most. tektites are like a black or a a brown, but moldavite's green. Let me show you. Oh. It's really interesting. Oh. >> just Hold it up. Jamie's got some on the. screen already. >> go. Hold it up to the light. Wow. Oh, that's [ __ ] dope. So, it's basically like nuclear glass. >> Exactly that, yeah. >> Same type of Wow. And then that's the case my wife had. made for me, and it's wrapped in an old. chain that belonged to my dad. Oh,

that's so dope. Yeah, keep with me all the time. >> That's [ __ ] cool, man. >> to have a piece in um. you know the old Thai amulets with the. little little bronze. I I used to have one in that. Took it. out. Um I put it I put the took the. Buddha out and put a piece of moldavite. in it wrapped in a piece of UFC canvas, and I wore it just all the time. But. then my wife upgraded me as she tries to. do all the time. So, the UFC gave you a. chunk of canvas? >> I have a whole canvas. Ooh. Nice. Which fight? Um it was Verdum.

Volkov. Oh, okay. >> And it's just it's covered in Verdum's. blood. You got his nose busted pretty. badly. So, but it had to be in quarantine for. like 12 months until they gave it me. Really? >> Yeah. Yeah, cuz it's a biohazard. >> [laughter]. >> So, does it all die after 12 months? I. guess so. I mean, I guess so. It was. kept in a warehouse, and then they Yeah, they dropped it off for me. Do they have. to check it? I know. don't know. I don't know. >> What would be on. >> I wouldn't lick it, but it looks fine to.

me. What could possibly be in the blood? I mean doesn't everybody get tested. before. >> point. Yeah. That's a good point. Maybe. there's just some kind of rule. I think. they incinerate them all now, don't. they? I don't think they keep them. I. mean they keep the They've got the. pieces with the names, but I think the. rest of it gets gets disposed of now. Huh. Yeah. I wonder if there's any logic. to that. I don't know. Or if it's just. people being scared. >> Yeah, maybe. Maybe. It's a cool thing. I've actually got it on the wall of my. house, believe it or not. Oh, really? >> Yeah, I had it in the gym, but then it's. on the wall of my house now. Oh, that's. nice. That's pretty cool.

>> Yeah. It's just a nice thing to have, you know? Dude, what happened with you. and the UFC? Like I don't know the. story. I. >> I know you got into it with Herb Dean. >> Yeah. about a stoppage, a late stoppage. >> Yeah. And you you were upset. This was during. COVID, right? >> Yeah, this was I think it was Fight. Island 3. Um and it was it was the second fight of. the night where it happened. It was a. heavyweight that had gone down and just. take just took a bunch too many shots. before the fight was stopped. But the.

the Jai Herbert Francisco Trinaldo one. was the the one where you heard me shout. up and yell stop the fight. Um. and. it was just a it was a weird. circumstance. And look, you know, caveat. Herb's a great referee. He's refereed me. a lot. But. every now and then people do make. mistakes. And in Fight Island everyone. was tired. It was quiet in the arena as. well, so you can I mean you can hear me. yelling. It wasn't the first time I'd done it, though. I yelled at him in Moscow for a. CB Dollaway fight. And it's.

the thing is there's a point where I'm. there for the knockouts. I'm there for. the blood. But I'm also there to make. sure that once it's done, it's done and. those fighters are protected. You know? And. the way that that that Jai Herbert fell. it was just You you get the reads. You. know it. You see him falling and you're. like, man, there's something not right about the. way that he's falling. And then as he. landed, he was looking up at the. lighting rig, but his arms were kind of. stretched out. So, he was gone. He was. gone. He was out of it. And then there.

was this and I think of course because. it was quarantine times, it was silence. in there. The time, it was like you could hear a. heartbeat in the air. And there was just this moment where. Trenado stood over him and looked at. Herb. And Jai's still on the floor kind of not. fully conscious. And Trenado just just. started cracking him with more shots. And that was the point where I stood up. straight away and I'm yelling and Paul. Felder was doing the same thing next to. me. You actually see Herb look at me. through the cage and point at me and.

tell me to shut up. The thing that annoyed me about it was. the miscommunication about what had. happened. Because the message that got back to. Dana and everybody at the top was that I. left my commentary desk and went over. and I was stood outside the cage. And I wasn't. Herb came to me. So, like. I'm at my desk. We've got this piece of. Plexiglas cuz it's all COVID protocol, right? >> That stopped everything, didn't it? And then and then we had another desk in. front of that. So, Herb's basically and.

Herb's doesn't move very quickly most of. the time. He's a big old boy and it but. he was moving at pace towards me. So, I. stood up, took my headset off and put. them down or had them in my hand. And he. came over and he started yelling at me. and you know, you stay out of it, you. can't be shouting and this and that. And. that's where you see me go, that was two. times. That's the second time of the. night. Um. After the I mean. as it's going on and this was when we're. not doing interviews in the cage as. well, right? So, I'm standing up.

>> Also hilarious, yeah. Guys just. breathing on each other, sweating and. bleeding on each other. >> hands in the hotel and everything and it. was kind of odd. But. because I'm not going into the cage, I'm. now turning around and my interview. camera's behind me. So, basically what the UFC wanted me to. do when Herb's was marching over to me. was to stand up, turn my back on him, and put my headset on. And me, as a martial artist, I'm not. going to turn my back on someone when. they're moving at me with the kind of. pace that he was. So, I I everything got. a bit delayed because I was having an.

interact with interaction with Herb. As soon as the event was over and I was. on my way over to the ESPN desk, Herb. and I bumped into each other, and we had. just had a a brief minute conversation. Everything was cool. I said, "Look, I. respect you as a referee. You left that. one too late. There was no doubt, and it. was the second one tonight." And. there are other instances where it's. happened, right? Nobody's perfect. I. would make mistakes as well, of course. >> Very difficult job. >> Very, very difficult job. The thing that. annoyed me, though, and for me, it was.

done then. When I got backstage, someone from the. production team confronted me about. approaching Herb. I tried to make sure. that the narrative was set correctly, that he actually came over to me. Um but. that never got escalated up the chain. So, it was always, you know, you. approached an official, etc., etc. And. And it just so happened to coincide with. where someone had approached Mark. Goddard and pushed him at another event, UAE Warriors. So, the whole thing kind. of got convoluted and bundled into the.

same thing. >> Was that the Conor situation? >> No, that was in Bellator, but there was. another one. It was UAE Warriors. And I think someone had kept hold of a. choke too long, and then Goddard had. separated the fight, and then he came. over to Mark, and he's trying to push. Mark and stuff. And when Dana actually made the. statement about if you approach an. official, you'll be gone. That was. actually in reference to. the other thing that happened, but it. was linked in with me as well. The thing that pissed me off is when I.

got to the back to the hotel or to the. airport or whatever, Herb had posted this video, and he was. like sitting at the airport, you know, trying to justify what had happened. And. But it was just like if he was saying. things like, "If you think you're the. smartest guy in the room." And just like. poking at me, just constantly. And I'm. like, "I've got a bunch of hours sitting on a. plane on the way back to the UK now.". And you know what I'm like, I'm pulling. this apart and I'm like, "Did I Did I. step out of line? Did I say something I. shouldn't have said?" And and I'm And. then I'm assessing it and then I'm. going, "No, hang on a minute. Like, my.

intention is to protect that fighter. that needed protecting, right? His. family are at home sitting watching. that. They don't want to see him getting. smashed in the face unnecessarily. They. know the risks of the job already.". So, >> [sighs]. >> I kind of sat on the on the plane on the. way home and I'm like, "How am I going. to deal with this?". So, I dealt with it. the way that I would always do. I get. all the facts on the table. I try and. organize my response. And. what I did was I created a video that I. put up on YouTube, which the UFC.

actually contacted YouTube and had them. delete off the back end. Oh, yeah. And it was about It was about an hour. and a quarter long. It was a decent. chunk of chunk of information. But I went through what had happened on. the night, other circumstances where. Herb had maybe not pulled the trigger. quick enough. or times when he'd been indecisive, like. Cowboy Cerrone. Not sure if you remember. that one. Cowboy went down at the end of the first. round and they actually helped him back. to his stool. and sat him on the stool and Greg. Jackson's going, "Hey, Cowboy, you're.

okay. Everything's fine." Then he went. out and got TKO'd at the start of the. second round. But if you remember that, Herb jumps in and waves the fight off at. the end of the the round. and then decides to restart it in the. second. >> Mhm. So, I I pointed out a bunch of things. where. he could have maybe done a better job. I. also gave him the benefit of the doubt. in like the Robbie Lawler Ben Askren. fight where. to me that wasn't stopped early. You. could see Robbie Lawler's arm fall for a. second. I think he went out for a split. second in that moment. >> came back and then complained about it.

>> So, in that moment and you. >> Hard to tell. Very hard to tell. But you. can see Herb in that situation going, "Oh, man, I'm I'm sorry. I thought you. out. Like. those those things are going to happen. I would always rather the fighter be. protected than just kind of leave it for. the benefit of the doubt and just let. him take a It's different with a. submission, of course. Mhm. But the point is I was trying to create. something that was quite balanced. And. the other thing as well was you know, it. was Fight Island. Like we're getting. tested every other day. Like we we're. quarantined in our rooms sometimes. It.

We were doing. fights at weird hours of the day. So. people were kind of foggy and fatigued. and it was just a weird environment. So. I gave Herb and the all the officials. the benefit of the doubt that, you know, you're not going to be at 100% at 4:00. in the morning. But it was the way they responded to me. which pissed me off. And then the way. that the UFC kind of. pulled all their support for me. Mhm. >> And and and they contacted me and they. said, "Hey, we're going to organize a. conversation with you and. whoever.".

Um and I said, "I just want to let you. know I've got this video ready to go. And I am going to post it because it it. to it vindicates what I did, in my. opinion, but it also. it also offers some understanding of. what Herb was trying to do and the job. that he has and how difficult it is. And unfortunately, I mean, it got a. couple of hundred thousand views before. it was taken down. But it's just if it's. still on the channel now. If you look at. it, it's just a a little gray gray. square with three dots. And it There's. just nothing on the back. They literally went into my channel and.

took it away. >> That's so weird that they could take. down something that doesn't violate any. laws or rules. You know, that's kind of weird. >> YouTube and said, "Hey, you know, he's. used some UFC footage." But did you? Yeah, I did. But at the time I had. permission to use UFC footage. They were. allowing me to make war rooms and all. kinds of stuff. >> it only helps them. That's it. I mean, I. I was an ambassador for Europe as well. as being a commentator. So my job, in my. mind, was was to spread the word of MMA,

right? I'm trying to educate everybody. as much as I can. And I could make a lot. more content through my channel than I. could rely on the UFC to make content. So, I was just trying to turn extra. stuff out to to keep drawing attention. to it. So, they've given me permission. to use footage on my channel. And I'd. built a company off the back of this. I'd employed my raptors. I think you. remember you remember meeting those. guys. Mhm. And all that was gone, you. know? And and the thing is it was like. I understand that the UFC are not going. to fire me for shouting up to protect a.

uh a fighter. But I knew on that day my card was. marked, you know? And I knew that my. card was marked on that day because I. was. I had I was too stubborn. I didn't wait. for the UFC to tell me what I should. have said and this and that. I posted my. video. I wanted to clear my name. And I. wanted to back up the reason why I'd. said that because. it wasn't the first time I'd done it, you know? It was the first time I'd done. it in a quiet empty arena, but if you go. back to I think it was Moscow with CB. Dollaway. And he was fighting a guy. called Mamed Khalidov.

And for about a minute 15, he was just. curled up in a ball on the floor. And he. was just getting pounded. He went from. fetal position to completely belly down. to fetal position on the other side in. the space of that minute. And at the end. of the round, Herb just stood over him. And he's laying there like a corpse on. the floor. I'm like this fight should have been. stopped easy 30 seconds ago. Even CB CB. Dollaway came out and said that he. didn't feel protected by it. But the the difference was that we've. got 25,000 people in the arena, so you.

can't really hear me shouting stop the. fight Right. >> scenario, you know? >> It's just an awkward situation cuz I. like Herb. I would never have him. referee my wife. I always make a request. to make sure that he doesn't. But that's. more because of the history between me. and him. I don't want to put him in a. position where I'm going to get angry at. him again for not doing his job, you. know? But but. I was just I was disappointed that the. UFC kind of pulled all support for me. and. backed Herb in that situation.

>> Was there a situation backstage where. you got into it with someone else from. the staff? Cuz that's what I had heard, that someone said something to you and. you yelled at someone backstage. >> I did, yeah. I did. But. in this in this scenario, I just left. the ESPN desk. And this is like 5:00 in. the morning or something now after the. broadcast. And I walked backstage. I. won't mention his name. I I I love him. He's a He's a lovely guy. But everyone's. kind of ragged and tired in Fight. Island, you know what I mean? >> Mhm. And as I'm walking back to my. dressing room, he came flying at me. And.

he's like, "Hey, you can't ever approach. an official and blah blah blah." I'm. like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hang on a. [ __ ] minute." And like just the. intensity that he came at me with just. spiked my adrenaline again. And I'm I'm. already kind of like I'm heightened. because the fights have just ended. You. know what it's like with adrenaline. I'm. like 3 days I'm like excitedly shaking. after every event. And it was just the energy that he came. at came at me with just. pushed my energy up. So then we had this. back and forth where I'm like, "Hey, you. need to get your facts right. He He.

approached me and blah blah blah.". Uh-huh. And I don't know whether that. information had already been passed on. to people above him to say, "Dan Hardy's. just approached Herb Dean after the. fight." When in actuality that just. never happened. And And because that was. the perspective that the guys in the in. the truck had got, like I I automatically felt like I'm. going to get in trouble here. Like I've. done something really wrong. Right. You. know? And. I mean the thing is it's like. that I've I've been working with with. with that man for for a long time, the. guy the guy backstage I'm talking about.

I love him. He's a lovely guy. We've. always got on. If I saw him now, we'd. have a good conversation. It was just you know you know what it's. like. Yeah. >> Heightened experience and and just the. energy that he came at me with, especially with the misinformation of me. now, you know, being the guy that took. my headset off and marched over to the. door to wait for Herb as he walked out. I just. just do that. Like I'm there to do my. job. But, ultimately, above my job and. above everything, UFC and everything. included, I'm there I'm there to make. sure that the MMA is stable and that the.

fighters are safe. >> Right. Cuz that that's that's my. instinct, you know? Everybody that gets. in that cage is someone's son or. daughter or father or brother, you know. what I mean? >> Mhm. And and in those moments, the people in. the cage, they go from being the best. fighters in the world to a very very. human victim that is not being protected. by the referee. And and from a fighter's perspective, >> [snorts]. >> I want to feel that war-like feeling. when I step in the cage. I want to feel. like I can throw everything at my. opponent. And I also want to feel safe.

that they can throw everything at me. Right? I don't want to have in my mind, "Oh, hang on. Do I need to pull this. punch cuz the referee's going to jump. in?" Like, there are three people in. there and one person's got the job to. protect both of us. Neither of us have a have a. responsibility to protect each other. Right. >> have a responsibility to pull a punch. after a knockdown. We don't have a. responsibility to stop when the bell. rings, right? Who was the referee with Anderson Silva. and Michael Bisping? Oh, that's a good question. Cuz that was.

a weird one, right? That fight should. have been over. Like, Anderson hits him with a flying. knee and then hops on top of the cage. Yeah. >> and they didn't stop the fight. Was that. Herb? It might have been. It might have. been. Look, the thing is I mean. >> that out for me, please? Herb has. refereed me a bunch of times and I and I. like Herb. But, that obviously was. Anderson's beef. That was Anderson's. >> issue. Anderson should have followed up. until the referee stops. Absolutely. But, you could have easily said this. fight's over. I mean, Yep. That's Herb.

>> Yeah. That's a crazy situation. So, Michael, I think had lost his. mouthpiece. Yes. >> And this is also when Michael was blind. in his right eye, right? So, you have to. take this into consideration. So, Michael loses his mouthpiece. and. at some point in time he points like. that he wants his mouthpiece back. And. look at the time. We're into the last 20 seconds. And it's a beautiful knee that Anderson. lands as well. >> Yeah. So he he he drops his mouthpiece.

And that's you, buddy. Uh-huh. One of my favorite fights to have. called. Bang. Right on the bell. >> [cheering]. >> Okay, the fight's not over. He's saying. the fight's not over. But in this. situation That's that actually makes. sense because he was still conscious and. he was still up and he had his hand. down. Yeah. That was Anderson's fault.

Oh, for sure it was. For sure it was. And and unfortunately for Anderson, he. got he had the adrenaline dump of. thinking he'd won the fight, got up on. the cage, started celebrating, and then. had another 10 minutes. And this is. where Michael Bisping is just a. gangster. >> he's pointing to his mouthpiece. And he's communicating with Herb, but. Herb didn't stop the fight. I mean, the thing is there's like these. seconds left. Anderson Silva's got no. responsibility to pull any punches, right? >> [ __ ] flying knee, too. God, he was a.

master in his prime. And this is post leg break, too. >> Yeah. This wasn't even prime Anderson, you know. This episode is brought to you. by ZipRecruiter. It's good to be. passionate about something. Exploring. what interests you adds more color to. your life. Makes it more fulfilling in a. way. And that's not just limited to your. personal life. If you run a business, you know how much of a difference it can. make when the people on your team are. excited about what they're doing. And if. you don't, well, it's time to find out. with ZipRecruiter. Try it for free at.

ziprecruiter.com/rogan. It's been rated the number one hiring. site based on G2 and that's because. ZipRecruiter is always looking for ways. to improve the hiring process, including. its newest feature that lets you see the. most qualified and more importantly most. interested people for your role to make. sure they're some of the first you start. talking to. Find candidates who really. want your job on ZipRecruiter. Four out. of five employers who post on.

ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate. within the first day. Try it for free at. ziprecruiter.com/rogan. That's ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Meet your match at ZipRecruiter. Still one of the best fights I've ever. called. This and Max Holloway Kelvin. Gastelum. One of the best fights I've. ever I've ever called. It was a. privilege to be sat cage side for it. But like Bisping's, you know, coming out. now with 10 minutes left and stamps his. authority on this fight which was very. very impressive.

But it was just it would this was just a. messy situation and I kind of didn't. really mind this because of the. circumstance that had played out. I mean. Herb was very clear in him saying it I. didn't stop the fight. Right. Right. Right. But then if like if you remember. the um the Cowboy Cerrone Masvidal fight. I do remember that one. >> Right. He gets dropped bad. >> Yeah. And Herb's bad habit at the end of. the round, if there's an engagement, he. steps in and he waves his arm. Like that's the signal the fight's off. Right? Right? You don't wave off the. round. You wave off the fight.

>> Right. >> So So at the end of the round, the the. referee's job is to get in between the. fighters. >> Right. Right. Si- Cowboy was on the floor. Masvidal. was already wandering off. I mean this is like that's. And watch this. So So this is the. problem, right? You have to leave the. fighter to get back to their stool. You. can't touch him. Herb's holding him up. there. Right? And then they come over they they. come over. They put the seat down the. the stool down. He sits down and then. Greg Jackson's saying. "Hey Cowboy, it's okay. This always. happens to us.".

Like he's just not conscious for this. whole minute. He goes back out and gets. TKO'd almost immediately afterwards. But But Herb has a habit of waving the. fight off. >> Yeah, but that didn't look like he was. waving the fight off. That looked like. he was signaling the end of the round. He didn't do this. Potentially, but then. if you've got one arm in between and. you're waving with the other one. Mhm. >> You know, I just don't You don't need to. You don't wave at the end of the round. >> by his hand movements there, I don't. think that qualifies. I think he's. saying stop, stop, stop.

I think he's putting his hands out. He's. got a hand on and a hand out. No, the. other hand's waving. That right hand's. waving. Yeah, but I think he's. Well, mhm. Yeah. I just It's just It's. an unnecessary motion. And I'm I'm okay. with the debate about it. Like, doing. the breakdown of the Jai Herbert finish, I learned something really important, which I don't know is I've asked a lot. of referees and most of them have not. heard about it. Fencing response, right? Have you heard of this? No. >> It's a concussion symptom. And it's it's. a weird thing. In a newborn baby, when.

you turn their head to the side, their. arms come up like a boxer. Really? >> Right. It's a weird I don't know exactly. where it comes from, but it but it's. something that happens when people get. concussed. Oh. [snorts]. >> Like, you will have seen this before in. K1. There was a really famous one where. a guy gets kicked in the head and as. he's going down You see it in football a. lot. Yes, you see it in football a lot. >> So, there's one with Marlon Moraes. Yeah. >> Yeah, look. See, arms go like straight. >> that. Yeah, you see a lot of that. You. want You want the judges do You want the. referees to know about fencing response. to be able to recognize all of the.

different um. tells of a concussion, right? So, and I. didn't know about fencing response until. after the Jai Herbert fight, but I had. in my video that was taken down, I had. lots and lots of different versions of. fencing response from K1 to football to. rugby, all kinds of stuff. Mhm. It's a. tell of concussion, right? Like. consciousness is not removed immediately. with every punch, is it? Like, you've. got a Everything's on a spectrum. You're. either completely conscious or. completely unconscious, but the window. in which the fight needs to be stopped.

is probably 5 or 10% towards the end of. that spectrum. Right? The point where. someone's unable to defend themself or. not intelligently defending themselves. >> And it's very subjective. >> It's very, very subjective. >> is like when a referee stops too early, it's very frustrating. And we have seen. many instances. And then we've also seen. some instances where it looked like a. fight could easily be stopped and the. fighter comes back and wins. Frankie. Edgar, Gray Maynard. What a What I mean, both fights. Great fights. Yeah. Crazy.

fights. But in the one where Frankie. won, where he KO'd him, that it looked. like he was out before. >> three times in the first round. >> goodness. I mean, Gray Maynard was a. beast. He was a big, strong, powerful. wrestler. Really big for 155. And. Frankie famously did not cut weight. Frankie was one of the rare guys that. fought at 155 and essentially weighed. like maybe 160, if that. You know, and. he was just fast and because of that he.

was very durable. And this is a thing. that we need to I mean. >> [sighs]. >> I [ __ ] hate weight cutting. I hate it. so bad. I really do. I think it's it I. think it's sanctioned cheating. I think. we should have figured out a way to. eliminate it a long time ago. But, you. know, honestly, when I watch ONE FC, I. don't think they figured out a way to do. it either. Like it's not It's almost. like it's ingrained in the culture. Yeah. >> I don't know. other than like random USADA style.

weigh-ins. You know what I mean? Instead. of a drug test, like, "Hey Dan, get on. the scale." "Oh, but I've been eating.". "I don't give a [ __ ] Get on the scale. Like, what do you weigh? You're You're. fighting 155, you weigh 190. This is. crazy." "Oh, no, I'm just 4 weeks into. camp, you know, the next 5 weeks I. really tighten up my diet." Get the [ __ ]. out of here, [ __ ] You're huge. >> Yeah. You're way too big for 155. Yeah. I mean, well, look at Anthony Johnson, you know, one of Right. >> um wrestling for Rumble. Like, he was. 214 on the night when we fought. We both.

weighed in at 171. He was 214. That was before the the days. of IVs, you know. But like you have to you have to wonder. what it does to people, you know. It probably had some sort of an impact. on his health problems that he had. because he was an enormous guy. I ran. into him one time. one time at a at a lobby at the hotel. And I go, "How much do you weigh?" And. he goes, "230." I'm like, "Brock, get. the [ __ ] out of here. That's crazy. You're going to lose 60 lb. 60 is nuts.

That's And he was. he was 230, built like a house. I mean, he was a [ __ ] stacked dude. It was. crazy. And unfortunately, those big. muscular guys can cut more weight. because muscle is more water. >> [snorts]. >> Yeah. Um but it's horrible. Like I I. I mean, look, Izzy landed a perfect. punch on Pereira, but I feel like. Pereira at middleweight just could not. take the same kind of shots that Pereira.

can take at light heavyweight. It's just. you're dehydrating the [ __ ] out of. yourself. He would weigh in 40 lb more. than he weighed than like on fight. night. Fight night he'd be 40 lb. heavier. That's crazy, isn't it? I think it was. 41. I think he was 226, which is bananas. That's just bananas. I. mean, even if I think about it, I was. getting up to like like 186, 188, and. that felt like a lot for me cutting down. to 170. And I mean, at the time I was. fairly big for the weight class, you.

know what I mean, compared to some of. the other guys around, but. it just didn't work for me, you know. what I mean? Like I I I invested too. much in getting bigger and stronger. And. and cuz when when I was fighting before. the UFC, I mean, I was fighting, you. know, 10, 12 times a year. And I needed. to stay close to weight. So I I was. always. I was always within about 10 lb. There. were very few fights before the UFC that. I cut a lot of weight. Um and even and. then when I was fighting out in Japan. because I couldn't use sauna, like I. just didn't want to, you know, put. myself in a position where I was having. to trash bag and, you know, sweat out in.

the streets of Tokyo. So, my weight was. always. >> you use sauna in Japan? >> tattoos. Isn't that crazy? I got kicked. out of a gym in Japan. Yeah, I had to go. back up to my room and put a long sleeve. shirt on. That's crazy. That is nuts. The gym in. the hotel. I'm like, I'm staying here. Yeah. They said, "No, you can't have. exposed tattoos." I'm like, "Oh my god, that's a wild. Do you have a Yakuza gym. that I could go to?". >> [laughter]. >> I got so many fingers up. >> what it is. It's all about Yakuza. tattoos. I'm like, "Look at me. Do you.

think I'm Yakuza?" I know, right? It's. crazy. I mean, I think it's changed that. changed a bit now, but. >> I don't know, man. This was not that. long ago. I mean, I guess it was. Maybe. it was 15 years ago. What was the last. time the UFC was in Tokyo? I'm not sure. >> I think it Well, it was more than 15. years ago, I believe. I I want to say it was like. [ __ ]. It might have been like 2009 or. something like that. Mine was 2007 I was. out there fighting for Cage Force. Yeah. Yeah. >> [snorts]. >> Crazy. >> Yeah. I mean, that was back when they. didn't have those options like those.

small portable sauna options that they. have now. Like there's some of them they. have these hot boxes where it's like. they have a little tiny heater in there. and you zip it up and you're in this. little thing and you can kind of carry. it with you on the road. You could check. [clears throat] it with your bags. >> Yeah, the blankets are really good. Veronica used that for her last couple. of cuts. They they're really good. But. people use hot baths now. No one was hot. bathing in my day. Like if you were. sweating, you were you were working out, you were running, you were in a sauna. You know, they were the only ways people. were cutting weight. Hot hot bathing. came in kind of towards the end of my.

career. What's better? I don't know. I mean, for me I never. used the hot baths. I tried it one time, I didn't really like it. And and that's. that's partly a psychological thing, I. think, because for me the the hot bath. was the reward after the fight. Mhm. Interesting. Right. I didn't want to. feel like I was relaxing the day before. fight. I want I was cold showered. I. wanted to feel feel like a feral animal. to be honest. >> Right. >> so I would I would cut weight on my own. I would like it was a process of me. preparing for the fight. I always. imagined it like. it's like, you know, you grab your shot.

your shield and your spear and it's the. march to the battlefield, you know? You. don't you don't walk out of your tent. and you're on the battlefield. There's a. process of getting there and the weight. cut for me was a part of that. It was. the suffering to get to the fight. So, the like for me it was hot sauna, cold shower, you know, treadmill, pads if I needed it. I mean, Tokyo I didn't even have a treadmill. I. just put trash bags on, cut the corners. off, the old school Thai boxing way. How. much did you weigh before that fight? I. cut 7 lbs and that was and that was one.

of the reasons why I changed the way. that I was doing it because like I. should have stopped that guy in the. first round and I didn't have the power. to it and that was his last fight. Like. he went he passed out after the after. the fight, went to the hospital. He had. a bleed on his brain. And he he he retired completely after. that. He was Who was that? His name was. Daisuke Oh, I remember him. Yeah, he was. the king of Pancrase. He was like 20 He. was the favorite to win the Cage Force. tournament and I pulled him in the first. round. Um and I I I went out there just with.

the intention of doing a normal weight. cut, you know, 6 or 7 lbs, exactly what. I would normally do. I had a little bit. more to cut because of the flight. But. I honestly hand on heart believe that if. I'd either not cut the weight or I'd cut. the weight in a better way and. rehydrated, I would have been able to. stop him and he wouldn't have had the. down the brain damage that he he ended. up with. Mhm. >> cuz like I look back to that third round. and I just I just didn't have the power. It was like a bad dream where I'm just. punching him and he's just. bouncing around. He's a bloody mess. >> took repeated subconcussive blows. Way.

more than he needed to. Ooh, yeah. You know, and I don't know. whether he cut weight as well, but. certainly the thing that played into the. damage that was done to him was my. weight cut. You know? Isn't that crazy? >> Isn't that crazy to think of? I just. didn't want to I mean and it but again. like. I have no guilt associated with that. because we knew what we were doing when. we got in there and I would not hold it. against him if that would have happened. to me. You know what I mean? But in but. in hindsight pulling the whole thing. apart like I could have been a better.

version of myself as a martial artist. and it would have actually probably. saved him some of the damage that he. ended up taking in the third. My. position is that the UFC and I think MMA. in general PFL all of them they we need. more weight classes. I don't think. there's nearly enough weight classes. I. think the gaps are enormous. I think the. names are stupid. It's very stupid to. have welterweight 170 when welterweight. has been with boxing at 147 forever. >> Yeah. For 100 years. And all of a sudden.

the UFC comes along and decides. welterweight is 170. Like why is it. called welterweight then? Yeah. You. know? What Imagine if you go to another. country and you buy a hammer and it's a. sandwich. No, I wanted a hammer. I need to build a house. What the [ __ ]. is this? It's like a totally different. thing. Like why is it 170 welterweight? Why not just call it the 170 pound. division? That's what wrestling does. They just they have divisions. >> Mhm. It doesn't need to be like a name. The the name seems silly. That's that's. a good point actually. I'd not thought. about that. I've actually I actually.

developed a a system of introducing. weight classes over the next several. years for the PFL. I mean obviously the. problem that we have is that some weight. classes are just not filling out because. the fighters are just not there. unfortunately. >> Right. >> You know? Um but I also think that's a. that's a bit of a. that's a result of of the monopolization. and the kind of killing off of the. grassroots of the sport because the. sport's not growing like it was in my. day. You know what I mean? It's it's. very very different now. >> you think's the cause of that? I think I. think the control and the and the. monopolization of the sport by the UFC.

unfortunately. How's that stop small. organizations? Well, because anything. that starts to gather some momentum they. they buy them out. They got rid of them. Some of. >> Well, they certainly did buy out a bunch. of organizations back in the day, right? They bought out Strike Force, they. bought out Pride, but they sort of. bought out Pride. They got [ __ ] Yeah. Like they thought they were buying out. Pride. Do you know all the all the deal. with that? They they yeah. >> contracts were bad. Is that right? >> got a [ __ ] DVD library. Look, over time I'm sure it's been worth.

it, right? But I I believe they paid 60. million for Pride. I might be wrong. about that number, but I that's what I. recall. And they didn't have any contracts. Mhm. Like, you know, they the contracts were. all [ __ ] up. So, like they thought. they were going to get Fedor, they. thought they were going to get. everybody. And so they got a lot of the. guys to come over and sign new contracts. with the UFC, like Cro Cop and Nogueira. and a bunch of other people, but. I don't think they got nearly what they. thought they were getting. Yeah. That's. that's interesting. I mean,

obviously, you know, I I love the UFC. and I I I've I've always held Dana and. the UFC and what they've created for us. in very, very high regard, but there. there there has in my opinion we've. passed the tipping point now. We're now. we're starting to see some of the. negative effects of them kind of locking. down everything. Because like there are. certain organizations that are they are. connected with the UFC and they're. enabled by the UFC through Fight Pass. and then they become almost like the. feeder leagues. >> Exactly. But then a lot of these a lot. of those shows are now starting to get. dropped off of Fight Pass, right? And.

the reason for that is because Contender. Series is replacing them. So, which. shows have been dropped off Fight Pass? >> LFA's just been dropped, hasn't it? >> Oh, it hasn't been? I think so. I mean, Invicta was on there a long time ago. I. think they moved away themselves, but. like there are Ares was dropped a. period, you know, my my wife's. commentator on Ares. They they were. dropped a while ago. What was Ares? Uh. it's the French promotion. Uh Ares. I. always say it wrong. Ares is the And. they were dropped from Fight Pass? >> Yeah. Yeah. I think they've been picked. up again now, but, you know, but. this this is the this is my my thinking.

behind it, right? And I remember back in. the day when I was fighting on Cage. Warriors in in the UK and the UFC were. coming over once or twice. Like, it started to kill off all the. other shows because everyone was like, "I'll just save my money. I'll wait for. the UFC to come.". Before the UFC came over and started. like stake to claim in in the UK, we had. a lot of shows that were kind of, you. know, popping up on weekends. I was up. and down the country and across Europe. all the time. Mhm. But then, when we. started having two or three UFC events a. year, a lot of the smaller shows just.

just dropped off, died off. Do you think. you So, you're saying save your money. meaning as an audience member? Yeah. Yeah, but you can't fault the UFC for. that. >> absolutely not. And look, and what they. did when when the UFC landed in in. Europe, they legitimized the sport. And. then, you know, so so we. the perspective started to change very. quickly. Like, when I was doing when I. had my title fight in 2010, I would say. at least half of the interviews that I. did was trying to justify the sport and. why I was allowed to do what I did.

Right? That was 2010. >> So, this is back when everybody thought. it was human [ __ ] fighting still. >> And I was getting into debates with. journalists about the the human [ __ ]. fighting thing and and trying to. >> Ew. Yeah, I know. It was Those debates. are so ew. But but like and imagine. trying to like attach Power Slap onto. the side of of UFC when it was then. It. would have just buried us, you know? I. do not like Power Slap. >> I hate it. I hate it. >> I do not like it. >> And and the thing is and I'm I'm very. much, you know, as long as you're not as. long as as long as you're not hurting. anybody else or you've you're you're. agreeing to hurt each other. >> your ability to power slap each other.

Just And I've watched a bunch of clips. I've watched a bunch of people get. flatlined and bounce their head off the. podium and fall backwards and I don't. like it. My whole thing about martial. arts is it's human chess. It's high-level problem solving. It's. you're you know, you're working up to a. moment and you're doing your very best. to not get hit and hit them and a. flawless performance like. it's one of the things that was most. impressive about Hamzat during his first.

few UFC fights. I think he fought like. three or four fights where he took like. three punches. >> Yeah, Reese McKee, Jim Phillips. I can't. remember the other one. I called a. couple of those fights. Joe Mershady. took nothing. That was one punch. >> That was flatlined with one punch. I mean, it would that was the craziest. thing about him. It's like, "Look at. this guy. He's not even getting hit. Like, this is nuts." And when he would. grab guys, they'd be helpless. I I like skill. There's no skill in. having a big hand and a fat face.

>> Yeah. And [laughter]. putting And I don't even understand why. you have chalk on your face. Why do you. have or your hand? Why. >> I don't know. Is that what it is? Is it. just so like the powder flies in the. air? And, you know, I don't get it. Maybe dunk your head in water. I don't. know. >> Hey, they used to in the kung fu movies, didn't they? They used to put talc on. people. So, when you hit them, you get a. cloud of Did they do that? Yeah, yeah. And hitting the watermelons with the. mallets to make the noises. >> [laughter]. >> But, I I again, like power slap can be. its thing and exist. It just away from.

MMA, you know? And what I hate to see is. the likes of Herzog and Mark Smith and. Forrest like catching these unconscious. guys as they're falling. It just It. attaches the sport that we've worked so. hard to develop. to something that is going to It. It does an injustice to the MMA fighters. and how hard they work and how much of. of human chess MMA is. >> Yeah, it's it's literally like taking. What are those [ __ ] smash them up. derby racing events where they crash.

into each other? >> derby. >> Demolition derby, yeah. It's like a. Formula 1 driver. and being involved in demolition derby. Like, that's [ __ ] crazy. >> There's actually a reason for the chalk. It's so that they can see where the hit. was made. Oh, indication of where the. partition strike lands. Well, can't you see that, though? They're not like moving at the speed of. light. >> not allowed to have excessive chalk and. they can't use water. There's no. excessive water. You said put your head. in water. The idea that. they have. >> They have rules. The idea they have.

rules is so crazy. It's It's so crazy. >> But but it is a reflection of how solid. the UFC is right now, right? Because you. go back to 2010, they couldn't have done. that without having a real negative. effect on the sport. >> I think it has a negative effect on the. sport now. >> I agree with you. I just I just think. it's not going The UFC is so powerful. and so strong now that. Like they can even take and advertise. power slap off the back of it. And get. away with it. It's that and then it's. also we're in the TikTok era where it's. just really all about clips. I mean does. does power slap does it air anywhere?

Cuz it aired on television for a while, right? >> Didn't they force it into the Paramount. deal in some way? Did they? I don't. know. I don't know. I think it's much more digestible in. these very short clips. I you know, I don't think there's a. person like there's some [ __ ]. hardcore MMA fans who can tell you about. guys that are competing in the amateurs. and tough enough and they're making. their way to the UFC and they're. fighting in the LFA. There's There's.

guys are coming in their debuts and you. can watch YouTube videos of guys. breaking down these guys skill sets and. you never even heard of these cats. Guys. who are fighting in Russia, guys who are. fighting in Brazil and. there's no power slap hardcore fans. There's no like this guy [ __ ] you got. to see him slap. Yeah. >> You got to see him take a slap. You got. to see the way she stares down her. opponent before she gets slapped. Like. Yeah. It's not the same, man. It's not I. mean, you can watch it. You can do it. I. don't have a problem with it. This is. America. I believe in freedom.

But don't do it. That's what I [laughter] say. I say. don't do it. You come to me, I'm going. to say don't do it. >> a recommendation, you don't do it, right? Like don't like you know, what whatever you would recommend, but. like. >> also say don't do Jackass. And you have. had those guys on my show all the time. >> Yeah. Every time I talk to Steve, I'm. like what the [ __ ] are [laughter] he. doing, man?" Why you doing that? >> type, man. He's a special type. >> Yeah. Johnny Knoxville told me he's been. knocked out 16 times, out cold. I'm. like, "That's way too many. That's way. too many.". That's nuts. Absolutely. I mean.

You have zero fights on your record. You've been KO'd 16 times. That's. That's real bad. Hey, he's got well paid. out of it though. He's, you know Yeah. >> someone else that got knocked out 16. times and uh Yeah, right. That's a good. point. >> did he make from it? >> That's a good point. Yeah. I mean, that's the other thing with these power. slap guys is like they're making pocket. money. How much do they make? I don't. know. Three and three, five and five, three? I. was chatting to someone in Vegas and and. she she didn't want to do it, but she.

was like, I I don't have a choice. I. can't get MMA fights. Why? >> she just couldn't get MMA fights. Too. She was too big for most of the weight. classes. >> Oh, yeah. >> You know. But That's a problem. Yeah. Look at poor. Kayla. Yeah. Yeah. She's got to make 135. Every. time I see her in between fights, I'm. like, "How? How do you get to 135? You're as big as. me." This is crazy. Crazy. Yeah, I saw. her I saw her the other week in. Pittsburgh and she's I mean, [snorts]. she's she's huge. >> She's gigantic. Yeah. She's got. phenomenal genetics. Yeah, she's got. that neck scar. Yeah, she got a an.

artificial disc. Which is It's really interesting they. can do that now and guys go Look, Aljamain did it and came back better. than ever. I mean, that was I mean, everybody was so upset at him the way he. won the title with Petr Yan, but he had. a legitimate. >> neck issue going into that fight and. with that illegal knee that he took to. the head really did [ __ ] him up. >> Yeah. And then he went and got an. artificial disc put in his neck and then. came back and dominated in the rematch. And then did you see him in his last. fight? Yeah. [ __ ] dude, man. That guy.

has the best back control in the game. His back control is so elite. He's It's It's really incredible. Cuz he. gets a hold of your back, man, it's. like, my god. >> Yeah, absolutely. See that and I don't I. don't mean to keep picking on officials, but that is a that's another situation. where I actually feel quite bad for Aljo. that he had to put on that performance. and damage his branding such a way. Because he didn't want to continue. fighting. Right. >> Right? Like and and the officials are. put in a circumstance where they don't.

have the confidence to just go, "No, hang on a minute. That was bad. Fight's over. [snorts]. >> Fight's done. >> Right. Right. Right. Well, you want to. give a guy the opportunity to fight. still. So, you don't This is the thing. about damage. You don't know looking. Some guys can take a shot like that and. then they bounce back and they're fine. Look Bisping. Bisping came back and won. that fight after that flying knee. You. know, and you really got to kind of like. let the fighter if the fighter's. conscious, you got to let them decide. whether or not they can cuz you don't. know. It's not possible to tell by.

looking at someone what kind of damage. they've got, especially Aljo with the. neck. Mhm. Neck situations are so bad, >> man. But with the crazy thing is that. with these artificial discs now, like. Weidman got one. Um there's a a few quite a few guys that. have gotten artificial discs in in their. neck now. And then they go back to fighting, which. is crazy. >> how that changes the way that the head. twists. >> I don't know. Like one thing I noticed. on Yoel Romero whose head just doesn't. twist, but he's got he's neck fused,

right? >> His neck is fused to the base of his. skull. >> So, like how do you how do you turn his. head to to cause concussion? >> I don't know. Well, there's a good. argument that it makes him more durable. Do you remember when Derek Brunson head. kicked him? Yeah. >> He hit him with a neck kick, like right. here. He didn't even budge. Cuz you're. you're hitting a steel bar. So then so. then think didn't Tiger Woods have some. kind of eye surgery so his eye was. 20/10. So, he has better edge and better. depth perception for golf. >> I'm pretty sure he did. Really?

>> Yeah, I'm sure he had something done to. his eyes. >> in our sponsor, Perplexity, Jamie. Never. heard of that. What did they do? They. can do that? >> got lasik. So, did [snorts] he have bad. eyes and he got them better or did he. have good eyes and said, "What can you. do? Can you make me have [ __ ]. superhuman eyes?" Uh. it's to correct nearsightedness that. improved him to 2015 vision. 2015? So, he wasn't. >> to 2020. The problem with that. is with these surgeries, if you have.

macular degeneration it continues to. progress, you are going to need it again or it's. going to get worse. Like Ari Shaffir got. lasik and he's like, "Oh, it's amazing. I've 20/20 vision.". Because he had terrible vision before. and then it started going to [ __ ] after. a while cuz it just kept deteriorating. And now his eyes suck. The thing is that. you you know athletes, like if I mean. and I think there was a poll done a. while ago with Olympians. Like if if you. can win a gold medal but you're going to. live to 30 or 35, would you take the.

gold medal? And a good portion of them. said yes, they absolutely would. Most. athletes, in order to achieve their. goals, would do absolutely anything. Right. So, if I if I all of a sudden. discovered that having your neck fused. like Yoel Romero means that you've got a. 30% chance of you know, less chance of. getting knocked out, how many fighters. do you think would have their neck fused. just to give them the advantage, right? >> that Tommy John surgery that people get. electively so they can pitch better? Before surgery, he was extremely. nearsighted. Uh he had an 11 prescription. I don't.

know what that is. Minus 11. Essentially legally blind without. glasses or contacts. Whoa. And one of the greatest golfers of all. time, if not the greatest. First lasik was done after his 1999 PGA. Championship win. Um Yeah, here you go. Results and impact. on his golf. Which reportedly achieved about 2015. vision, better than the standard 2020, meaning he could see more detail at. distance than the average person. Interesting. He described the cup and.

ball as looking larger and said his. ability to read greens improved and he. went on a notable win streak winning. five PGA Tour events in a row right. after the surgery. Wow. >> that links into the stoned ape theory. though, if we're going in a in a massive. circle, right? Because. microdosing mushrooms gives you better. edge and depth perception. So then the theory was that. you would have better chance of. surviving either as you know, not. becoming prey or finding prey. Yes. >> Right? >> Yeah, better vision, it would make you.

hornier, so it make you more likely to. breed and it also makes you more. creative and you know, um Terence. McKenna and Dennis McKenna link it to. the creation of language. Fascinating. Oh, it's very fascinating. >> Well, I I used to remember when I was in. Vegas, I had a a room in my house which. I think we talked about it before which. was the mushroom and I would like once a. week I would like clear the day and I. would have ceremony on a Saturday in the. evening. Then I'd get up on Sunday. morning and go out into Red Rock and I'd. do trail running. But at like at the. point where, you know, I took six or.

seven the night before so now I've. probably got the equivalent of two three. grams in my system. But I'm I'm running. in Vibrams downhill and I'm I'm I'm like. like a cat. I can I can see the ground. in a much different way to how I would. if I was completely straight. So Ooh. >> You know. That's exciting. >> There are some fighters that have been. microdosing through fights as well. I. won't throw them under the bus cuz Oh, I. know a few. Yeah. Yeah, Joe Schilling. talked pretty openly about it. >> He's got a fight coming up. Does he? Joe's back? Fighting in Brussels. Is he.

doing PFL? >> Yeah. Interesting. >> Yeah, yeah. Interesting. How old's Joe. now? I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I I. sparred with him at. Frank Mir's gym in Vegas a few years. ago. So far, obviously I knew Joe. Schilling who he was and you know, the. gym that he created in LA had a real. reputation and all that kind of stuff. >> 42. Damn. Wow. >> But he was just he was standing outside. the back just smoking a cigarette, came. in, put his gloves on and just beat the. snot out of me, you know what I mean? >> [laughter]. >> Such a good fighter. Yeah, a good. >> a beast kickboxer, man. I I was at the.

last man standing event in LA when he. fought. Like that was really crazy cuz. you had to fight multiple kickboxing. fights in a day. And you know, this was. Glory. This was like who used to run. Bellator? What was the guy who ran. Bellator? Not Scott Coker. No. Yeah, no, it is Scott Coker cuz there was a guy. before Scott, right? Yeah. Bjorn Bjorn. Rebney? >> Right. So he left and then Scott took. and Scott was also involved in Bellator. Yeah. Or or excuse me, Glory, right?

>> Strikeforce? Strikeforce. Scott Coker ran Strikeforce? Founded. Strikeforce. So who ran Bellator? Yeah, Bjorn founded it and then Scott Coker. >> Right. Okay, right. Well, so that is. correct. Okay. I think he was involved. in Glory, too. Right. And uh I think I. remember I went up to him and I said, "This is awesome, but don't do this. Don't have people fight multiple times. in a night. It's just like. >> cuz you could get a concussion and no. one even knows about it. Like there's. been a lot of fights where guys got. concussions and they didn't get knocked.

out. And then you have to fight again in. an hour and then you fight again 45. minutes after that. Like. man, that's a recipe for people getting. [ __ ] up. I know they did it back in. the old days in hardcore and all that. stuff. It's all great, but man, don't do. that. >> But you look at some of those first. round matchups when they were doing that. and you're like, "Hmm, okay, I can see. what you're doing here." You know what I. mean? Like. >> easier fights in the beginning. >> they they're all trying to. >> Sometimes, but it's I think it's kind of. random, you know? Sometimes you get a. tough matchup. >> K-1. I mean, you know, you like some of. those guys. You fight Hong Man Choi or.

or Bob Sapp. No matter how confident you. are in your skill set, just the sheer. size of them is a problem, you know? >> Those hit the [ __ ] K-1 tournaments. were bananas, man. >> good. Woo, they were so good. I had a. friend of mine in Canada that used to. get me VHS tapes back in the day. I. don't I think he had like a satellite. dish or some [ __ ] I I forget how he was. getting them, but he was getting them. and then he was sending them to me. K-1, Heroes, all these like real obscure. events he would send me. Awesome. Oh, I.

had a I don't know where the [ __ ] they. are now. I think they might even be in. my LA house, but I had a giant box. filled with VHS tapes. They were all. kinds of old school fights. I used to. have a I used to have a like a CD. like a zip CD thing that used to take. with me and I had a guy at my gym and he. would £5 he would burn me Pride or K-1. Heroes or whatever and he was finding. them online and just ripping it and you. know, selling them in the gym. But I had. a whole database of stuff. IFL and all. those old shows. K-1 Heroes I loved. You.

know, that's kind of partially how I got. the job with the UFC. Um when I first met Dana, like he just. he got me tickets because it was the I. was on Fear Factor and the UFC they just. purchased it. So this is 2001. This is. right post 9/11 when Tito Ortiz fought. Vladimir Matyushenko. Came out with the. American flag. Everybody went crazy and. um. I started talking to him about like. Japan Vale Tudo and do you know about. this guy? Do you know about that guy? And I as I was just like rattling off.

all these fighters that he had never. heard of before. I was talking about all. these guys that are fighting out of. Russia, all these guys in Japan and then. we started talking and then next thing. you know, he's like do you want to do. commentary? I was like. I just want to I just want to watch. And. you never thought about it before. commentary? No. >> No. No. Well, I worked with the UFC. before that as the post-fight. interviewer, but that was in '97, UFC. 12. And so I did it from '97 and '98 and. then it was costing me money cuz I would. make way more money if I would go work.

at a comedy club for the weekend than I. would doing this. But it was fun. So I did it for a little. while, but then it was like I think it. was UFC Japan. They wanted me to fly to. Japan and Frank Shamrock was fighting. Kevin Jackson. Is that who it was? Um, I think he won by first round. armbar. And I was like, I'm not going to. [ __ ] Japan, man. I can't. No. I'm I'm. done. So, I quit. I was like, I love you. guys. It's fun. Good time while it. lasted.

Did you feel like it was going to go. where it went though? No, I thought that. they were [ __ ] Really? It was It was. funny because, you know, Eddie Bravo and. I were backstage at one of these events. like way You know, I met Eddie way back. back in the day. So, it was like This is. like '97, '98. Eddie and I were. backstage like we were like, "You know. what this [ __ ] sport needs? Some. crazy billionaires with a ton of money. who love the sport who just cuz we know. it's so exciting and we know people. would think it's so exciting. It just. needs to be in everybody's face." And. then who comes along? The Fertittas. It's like we manifested them. Yeah.

>> [laughter]. >> Yeah. It was crazy cuz like, you know, the one of the the first events that I. did for the UFC, I did for free. I did. like the first 15 events for free. And I. just said, "Just get my friends. tickets." So, it was like Eddie and I. would go and you know, we would be like, "Bro, what the heck is [ __ ]. happening? It's actually happening." But. even back then it wasn't famous. It was. just It was in Vegas and it was, you. know, it was kind of getting a little. bit of attention. It wasn't until 2005. that that Forest Whitaker that the the.

main event um, of um, rather excuse me, Forest Griffin and. Stephan Bonnar main event of um, The. Ultimate Fighter. That one fight changed. everything. It's really crazy where like. the stars align with one fight, the whole sport takes off. Yeah. >> Cuz it really was that. Can't believe I. called him Forest Whitaker. But Yeah, I. I did that on commentary. I called. Robert Whittaker Forest Whitaker live on. [laughter] commentary. I've called people I've [ __ ] up.

Julianna Peña's name once. >> Yeah. I've I've [ __ ] people's names. up. It's like you have so many names in. your head. That's what people don't. understand. Like we you and I, between. you and I, we probably have 500. fighters' names in our head and then. plus jiu-jitsu guys, plus wrestlers, plus boxers. Like, oh my god, there's so. many names in your head. >> Yeah, and then project that into the. history of the sport now because we've. got the history of the sport and the. history of boxing on top of that as. well. >> The way I describe my memory is like I. have a whole bunch of boxes of folders.

and if I find that box, I can open that. [ __ ] up and talk to you about Marvin. Hagler versus Juan Roldan and I'll tell. you like the knockdown was fake and this. and that and Hagler went on to stop him. Oh, I'll tell you details. But if I. don't have that folder in front of me, I'm like, I don't know the why. I don't know why I. can't like immediately remember. sometimes. But sometimes I could pull. that box out and it's right there and I. can just get that folder out and boom. Do you remember the first time you sat. down at the commentary booth and put the.

headset on? Yes. Yes, that was UFC 37. and a half. London? No. Oh no, of. course. It was. >> after that though, right? UFC 38 was. London. Well, it was 37 and a half. because it was like a. It was an event they put together for. Best Damn Sports Show. Right. So. remember Best Damn Sports Show which was. on Fox Sports, I think. Fox Sports Net. And so. what it was was they had this. opportunity to do a show and this is.

when Dana asked me to do commentary and. I just did it as a favor. He goes, it'd be great if you did it. because it was the Fear Factor days and. it was Chuck Liddell versus Vitor. Belfort. And I said, oh, [ __ ] yeah, I'll. do it. And I think. I don't remember who else. I think. Robbie Lawler might have made his debut. >> Mir versus Robbie Lawler. >> That's right. Thank you, sir. Yeah, so it was it was fun. And I did it once and then they asked. me, would you do it again? I'm like, okay, I'll do it again. But it was. really just I just kept doing it. It.

wasn't a job. Like I like I said, I. didn't even ask for money. I did like 15. of them and then finally Dana says, look, I I to. sign you to a contract. I want to I want. to pay you. I was like. okay. All right. I was like reluctantly got. dragged into being a commentator. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by. Visible. >> [sighs]. >> Spring is in the air, which means time. for some spring cleaning. We're cleaning. out the garage and finally tossing those. mystery cords. But while you're cleaning.

out your junk drawer, take a look at. your wireless bill. Don't fall for. wireless traps, tacked-on fees, confusing bills, and empty promises. Join Visible and cut out the nonsense. With Visible, you get unlimited 5G data and hotspot on. Verizon's network for one flat cost, just $25 a month, taxes and fees. included. It's everything you need and. nothing you don't. Plus, for a limited.

time, new members can get the Visible. plan for just $20 a month for 1 year. using code FRESHSTART. Refresh your. wireless with Visible. Head to. visible.com to get started. Terms apply. Limited time offer. Subject to change. See visible.com. for plan features and network management. details. That's kind of cool. Yeah, it's. similar to me though really. I mean I. was cuz I've been sidelined cuz you.

know, cuz of my heart situation and they. wouldn't clear me in California. So then. UFC just wouldn't match me anywhere. And I'd had a I'd had a like a month or. two of just kind of wallowing and being. depressed and you know, avoiding MMA. gyms and Lorenzo. had invited me into the offices on. Sahara and and I I'd gone and sat with. him and we were chatting through and he. said hey, you know, I'm I'm going to. send you out to California. I want you. to go and see my specialist, you know, my family specialist and get a second. opinion and etc.

But he said also we've got another plan. for you. He said I won't spoil it at some point. you'll see Dana and Dana will tell you. what the plan is. And as I was it was. like a movie. As I was walking out of. the offices a stretch monster Hummer. pulled up. Literally [laughter]. I'm like. What's going on here? And Dana got out. and and and he was like oh just a. [ __ ] blah blah blah I just wanted to. see. He was like I want you to go to the. UK. I want you to be an ambassador. I. want you to do commentary and I said. that's great, you know, let me know what.

I need media training. He's like no none. of that I just want you to be you. sitting cage side. And I remember. getting to the first UFC London event. and sat down. at the desk. just fighting imposter syndrome bad and. seeing all the all the fans starting to. trickle into the arena. And then someone. on the on the from the truck came. through and he and said oh I've just. realized we've not practiced any post. fight interviews. I said all right not really thought. about it but it's just talking to. fighters I'll be fine. He said no no no. I'd I'd feel better if we practiced.

So okay. He said okay. Brad Pickett wins by knockout. Go. I'm like. How did you knock him out? >> [laughter]. >> Was my first question. And it was weird. cuz it was like I'd not even thought. about it up until that point but when. they raised the when they when they they. asked me to do the the kind of practice. rehearsal with not any scenario that was. realistic then all of a sudden I started. to panic cuz I but I I remember sitting. there feeling like a like a 14-year-old.

Like someone's going to tap me on the. shoulder in a minute and throw me out. >> Really? That's so weird. Yeah. >> That's funny. It felt really weird. >> That's interesting. I don't remember if. I felt imposter syndrome. I think. because I wasn't getting paid I probably. thought it was just fun. Yeah. I. probably didn't think it was a job so I. probably thought like oh they just want. me to do this because I'm famous and it. would be good to for the sport if the. Fear Factor guy is enthusiastic about. the sport. So that's how I thought about it. And.

so, like I would go on like the Howard. Stern show and stuff and we'd wind up. just talking about the UFC. And this was. again, I wasn't even working for the. UFC. I was there to promote Fear Factor, but I was talking about how much I loved. uh UFC and I just I think it's awesome. And back when I was competing. uh no one knew what the best sport It's. so hard for people to recognize that. today because it's not that long ago, you know? Like when I was last time I. fought was like '88 or '89. You would think like we kind of had it.

sorted out back then, but you didn't. No. one knew. No one knew like what was the. best thing to study. I remember I went. to this gym. um a friend of mine was teaching uh at. this uh university and I would go and. train with him and his students sometime. and I would go there and they had a judo. program there and I'd be like, "Look at. these suckers practicing this stupid. judo. Like this is useless. You can't. even kick anybody.". >> [laughter]. >> Meanwhile, all those guys would have. killed me. They would have just grabbed. me and [ __ ] thrown me on my head, but. I didn't think that. I was totally.

delusional. I thought I was going to. kick them into the [ __ ] shadow. [laughter] realm. And no one knew what the right thing to. study was. If you took kung fu, you. thought kung fu was the [ __ ] Bruce Lee, right? I'm wearing a Bruce Lee shirt. He. was really the only guy that was wise. enough to realize you just got to take a. little bit from everything. And having. one style, whether it was his initial. style, which was wing chun, or you know, whatever it is, karate, that's not the. way. The way is the the right way to win. in close quarter combat. You need to.

learn how to grapple. You need to learn. boxing. You need to learn how to block. correctly. You need to learn how to kick. correctly. Back then we didn't know and we always. wondered like what would happen if they. did like a [ __ ] put a bunch of guys. together. And I knew Benny the Jet had. competed in some weird stuff in Hawaii. But no one really knew. So, when it was. finally happening to me, I was like a. little kid. I was like, "Oh my god, it's. happening. It's really happening." Yeah. And I was. like, "Please let this work. Please let.

this work." And then, to watch the. evolution of it, from the beginning, which is just Hoyce going in there and. dominating everybody, cuz no one knew. jiu-jitsu. And he had the gi on, so he. had all this friction. It was amazing. And then, everybody took jiu-jitsu, including me. I was like, "God, I got to. learn jiu-jitsu." And then, to watch the. evolution, like these giant juiced-up. [ __ ] wrestlers come along, like Mark. Coleman, smashing Mark Kerr, smashing. everybody. You're like, "Oh my god, you. got to get on the sauce." And so, everybody, you know, Vitor got up like.

240 lb, and his [ __ ] neck started at. the top of his head. Oh, yeah, bro. I. was training the same gym as him when he. made his UFC debut. >> [snorts]. >> So, I was training at Croston Gracie's. gym. So, you kind of knew what was. coming then. Well, I didn't. I knew he. was awesome, but I didn't know how good. his hands were, cuz I only saw him doing. jiu-jitsu. But, I knew he was a beast. Like, and he was a black belt in. jiu-jitsu at the time, and you know, a. phenomenal athlete. Just so fast. But, then I saw a video of him, he fought.

John Hess in Hawaii. Do you remember. John Hess? Safta fighting? So, John Hess was this giant guy. He's. like 6'7" or something like that. And. Vitor just. [ __ ] took him to the ground, and bang. bang bang bang bang bang bang, hit him. with like 30 [ __ ] unanswered punches. in a row, like in 3 seconds. Like, and put him away. And then, they're. screaming, "Jiu-jitsu! Jiu-jitsu!" And I. was like, "Wait a minute. >> [laughter]. >> This is not I mean, I get it, you know. jiu-jitsu, but that was boxing. You used.

You used striking. But, it was like to be there at the very. beginning, and watch this evolution. There it is. There's Vitor. Look at. this. Boom boom boom boom boom. I mean, my god. And look how thin Vitor was back. then. That was Vitor at like, you know, 199 lb, maybe. Maybe 190. Oh, he was so. fast. And so that was there for his UFC. debut. So that was UFC 12. So. he fought Trey Telligman, and Trey. Telligman like had no idea that this guy. could box that way. Like no one did.

They thought he's a cross and Gracie. jiu-jitsu black belt. It was like, "Okay, you know, avoid the takedowns. This guy's really good on the ground.". And he just starts tuning people up with. his hands. >> Yeah. And Telligman was Lion's Den, wasn't he? He was one of Ken Shamrock's. guys. The ever missing pec. >> Yes. He was in a car accident, I. believe, when he was a child. >> Oh, is that right? >> Yeah. And he his pec was not attached on. one side. And he was [ __ ] jacked, dude. And then he fought Scott Ferrozzo. after that, who was like giant fat guy.

Who was also like a tank, you know, like. a huge [ __ ] knockout artist. And. Vitor tuned him up, too. Just the speed. he had. So this is like, you know, 1997. And it was it was wild. And that was in. like a high school auditorium in Dothan, Alabama. It was like really weird. I was. like, "This is so These These are These. are so strange. These events were so. bizarre." You know, I was hanging out. with the Lion's Den guys. We go drinking. together and stuff. It was fun. But it. was just weird. It was like, "What is.

this thing that we're doing? This. [snorts] is it.". The Dothan Civic Center. That's what it. was. Look how small it is. Look how. little that place is. Night seven. Yeah. So that would have been the time when I. was I was at art college. Yeah. >> And I would I went to I went to Virgin. Megastore. There you are, look. >> Jeff Blatnick is the [ __ ] man. I went. to Virgin Megastore. And uh. Look how You're beautiful, man. Look at. Look how beautiful we are. And. no one taught me No one told me what to. do. No one gave me any instruction.

Nothing. They gave me a microphone and. then said, "We're going to come to you. backstage." I'm like, "What do you want. me to say?". Like. >> [laughter]. >> It was [ __ ] nothing. It was nothing. It was. >> knew better than everybody else though. Well, luckily I was a huge fan. So it. was pretty easy. I got the job because. they had a guy that was doing it before. and they got rid of him and Campbell. McLaren who was one of the producers was. good friends with my comedy manager and. they were he was just casually talking.

is like we're looking for someone to do. post fight interviews and then he's like. Joe loves the UFC. He's like you think. he'd do it? And so they called me up I. was like [ __ ] yeah, let's go. I was like. this is And this is so it was like 97 I. guess I was 30. Yeah. Is this is how the. judges used to announce their picks? They just held up a whiteboard. >> There was a bunch of rules at the. beginning that seemed very strange to me. too. I saw they had overtime rules. Ooh, I forgot about that. I forgot about. overtime. >> them laws of the octagon. >> Valiji.

Valiji He was a lunatic wasn't he? So. intense. >> dog. Yeah, it says No biting, no eye. gouging, no fish hooking. That was it. You could hit people in the nuts. It was. >> [laughter]. >> That's it. I've got to I tell you what. I've got a piece of my gum missing from. someone trying to fish hook me. They. took they took a piece of the gum away. with their fingernail. I'm going to get. I'm going to get something done. I've. got some teeth that need fixing at some. point. >> Christ. Not nice. Ay ay ay. >> Fish hooking dangerous. >> Yeah, that's nasty. If if someone fish. hooks you you should bite their [ __ ].

fingers. >> Oh, I think so. >> You should be able to bite them like. [ __ ] you get your [ __ ] fingers out of. my mouth [ __ ] You know that's. that's interesting about commentary. I've I've always wondered because. you you everybody came after you right. when it come when it comes to MMA. commentary. So like like in the early. days when I was first doing the job. no one knows what a color commentator or. a play by play commentator is back in. the day. I think there's more of an. understanding now. So so. my my response to everybody is I'm I'm. going to try and do Joe's job. You know. what I mean? But you set the bar so. high. I think partly that's what fed.

into my imposter syndrome. I'm sitting. there look and I. I the podcast that you did with with. Dustin I appreciate all the kind words. you did. I want to throw it back to you though. because you were the person that raised. the bar for everybody else to reach. You. know, so. and I didn't realize cuz I never had an. intention of being a commentator. Like. it just came off the back of my career. because my career was ended abruptly. So. then. anyone that ever says, "Oh, you you're. actually pretty good at this." The. reason why is just cuz I listened to you. religiously. Like a lot of people watch.

the fights and don't pay attention to. the commentary. Like I tuned in. I was. paying attention to everything that you. said. So even even the delivery and the. cadence and stuff what you did laid the. foundation for me to learn. So I very. very much appreciate that. >> Oh, thank you. Thank you. It was. accidental. Same for me. But but but it. can't have been accidental because I had. somebody that to learn from, you know, that's why I asked you because you. didn't have anybody that kind of. kind of you know. Well, it was it was weird because um I.

think I was one of the first people to. do it that had a real understanding of. jiu-jitsu. So when the fights would go to the. ground, the play-by-play guy would have, you know, like Goldberg, great guy, didn't train, didn't know what the [ __ ]. was happening. So I would have to and. also people at home, what's going on? So. I'd have to walk them through exactly. when someone's in danger and why they're. in danger and how they can get out of it. and when they're free. Okay, see his. elbow? He's free now. He's good. And so.

my mind is spinning like 100 miles an. hour. I'm like, "Now I don't have to do. that as much cuz people kind of. understand things much more." But. there's certain situations and certain. positions where I would have to say, "No, this is a submission. Like he's. he's very close here. Like okay, now. he's got to cinch it up. He's got to put. his ankle behind his leg. There, he's. got it." He's got and you'd have to like. talk people through it. So it was it was. different than any other sport cuz it. was. you're kind of like educating people on. what's happening. Like I couldn't use. obscure I even though I used the obscure.

term like, you know, crackhead control. or something like like weird stuff like. that that Eddie comes up with these. [ __ ] ridiculous names for submissions. and positions. But I would have to. explain why this works and what's. happening and what's going on and what's. what's in danger. You know and then it. was weird because I felt like this. obligation to jiu-jitsu. that. that was the one thing like you could. someone kicks you in the head you get. it. Someone knees someone in the head oh. you hit him with a flying knee you get. it. But. explaining someone like what like.

you know a calf crusher is. Like that's. that's a weird [ __ ] position. Like. what is going on there you know. explaining to someone you know why a. triangle works and why it doesn't work. and why someone's safe you know with a. head and arm choke. Why okay he's okay. he's got his hand over his ear. There's. it was all this weird stuff where it was. partially trying to be entertaining but. also trying to educate. And I had to. kind of figure it out as I did it. Mhm.

You know as I called I don't know how. many fights I've called. It's probably. thousands. >> Yeah I mean I've I've called a lot and. you've you've been doing it a lot longer. than me. Well I don't do as many now you. know I only do North American. pay-per-views and I don't even do I. don't even go to Canada anymore so [ __ ]. them. I love Canadians it's the. government that [ __ ] creeps me out. But um the. the amount I was doing back then I was. doing like 20 shows plus a year 22 shows. a year. Yeah. So I was doing a show. almost every other weekend I was flying.

somewhere. And it was exhausting it was. a really it was a problem but it was and. and at one point in time it became. really my main job after Fear Factor was. over. And I loved it but the the. traveling was brutal. You'd go to. Australia you come back from Australia. now you're going to Dallas you're going. to Dallas you're going to New York it's. like. whoo. >> Yeah I I was in first time I went to. Australia with the UFC it was a 56 hour. round trip and I was on the ground for. 30 hours. You feel like you're on drugs. I was, yeah. You feel like like someone. gave me a drug. I don't even know where.

I am. I loved it though. I loved being. there. I was like, "Wow, what a crazy. country. You guys are on the other side. of the planet and you're all cool and. the food's great." Yeah. It's fun. >> I got all the I got all the gigs that. most people didn't want to do. So, like. I was I was being sent to all of the. farthest reaches, you know what I mean? >> [laughter]. >> Like I I did I mean, Singapore I loved, Japan I loved, you know, going out to. Australia to do those events. I did a. lot of the Russian events, you know. I. was even back at one time in case Bruce. Buffer didn't make it. I was going to be. the Really? MC as well, yeah. >> Oh, wow. That's crazy. That's a hard.

job. >> Yeah, absolutely. That guy has set the. bar. He almost dies every event. Really? We We were We're looking at him. like one day is going to be loud cuz he. you know, Bruce has got to be like 70. years old now, right? So, like one day. that [ __ ] is going to stroke out. in THE MIDDLE OF. >> [screaming]. >> JUST [ __ ] POP. >> [laughter]. >> BLOOD STARTS LEAKING. That's it. But if. you ask Bruce, that's the way he would. like to go, you know. That's how he'd. want to go. One of my craziest with his. suit on. I I remember I remember coming.

down a. a slide and like a metal slide from the. Great Wall of China. >> [laughter]. >> with Bruce Buffer in front of me and. Urijah Faber behind me and we're going. down on these like rugs on the way down. from just weird experiences that you. have on the road with the UFC, you know. what I mean? Yeah, that was good. I've. always always loved Bruce. Yeah, he's a. great guy. >> that's another thing as well is like and. you'll remember this from back in back. when I made my debut. Like I'd get into it with Bruce. Like.

I'd be like calling Bruce on and. he always used to come to me. I loved it. cuz it was. just the idea of of of hearing Bruce. Buffer say my name was just wild to me. HARDY! NO, I'd get goosebumps. We always talk. about like whether or not it's um. a jinx to fist bump Buffer. Can't you. know, like me and Anik were talking. about it, but I was like, "No, Khabib. fist bumped him every time. So, it can't. be a jinx.". You You You can't You look for jinxes. You look for things that are a bad omen.

or a bad sign, you know? [snorts] Yeah. We're really superstitious, aren't we? We like to We like to hang stuff on. things that aren't our responsibility. >> Isn't that weird? It is strange. >> Especially with fighters. Fighters are. super superstitious. >> Yeah. They get real weird about the the. things they do, their rituals before. fights, what they what they eat, where. they like. what they wear. Yeah. Yeah. And And like some of the things. they do like I mean like Ben Henderson. with the toothpick. Mhm. >> Like crazy. >> Crazy. I was interviewing him. post-fight. I'm like, "You got a.

toothpick in your mouth?". And he got in trouble for that. Yeah. Dangerous though, especially if you know. you get knocked out and that toothpick's. going down your throat. >> I just didn't understand why he did it. Like what is Seems like a bit of a bit. of a safety blanket almost. It's like a. familiarity that it's there. It's the. weirdest one of all time. A toothpick in. your mouth? Like, okay. Yeah, very. strange. I like a toothpick but not. during a fight. That dude still had it. That's crazy. >> He's got a fight coming up in Brussels. Wow. >> It's a It's a rough fight as well. How. old is he now? 44. Wow. Yeah.

Fighting a kid called Patrick Habirora. Good Belgian fighter. Mhm. Yeah. It's. interesting though. I mean, you know, you got got a former champ with all that. experience. Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> I mean, he's still in great shape. Yeah. >> He still can compete at a high level. It's just Wow, these guys when they're. they're competing for that long, it's so. nuts. >> Yeah. You You know what I what I've and. I suggested as well as a thousand other. things that I've suggested to the PFL, but a masters division. Mhm. >> Right? You know the likes of Cowboy and. Tony Ferguson and you know, the guys. that you you want to keep fighting, but.

you don't want to see them just get. smashed by Chimaev. You know? Sure. I. would love to see some of those fairly. matched fights, you know? Like Like when. we had It was Nate Diaz against Chimaev, wasn't it? And then then Chimaev was. taken out the fight and Tony Ferguson. was put in the place and Nate won the. fight. Mhm. That to me was the perfect. match-up. Like the Chimaev one would. have made me feel really uncomfortable. to watch. And I. I would love to see a master's division, especially now we could accommodate it. with some of the older fighters around. Because most of them they just kind of. bounce over onto, you know, bare-knuckle.

or whatever else is out there. [clears throat] as options. Whereas like they've still got so much. to offer. And if the fights are fairly. matched, I think we get some more really. real good ones. >> Yeah, that it is a problem when you see. those old veterans that still have. something to offer and then you see them. getting thrown in there with some. 27-year-old assassin. And you're like, "Good lord, don't do this.". >> I mean, I'm what, 43? I'd fight someone. this weekend. Like I'd love it. It's still in me. But. I know I'm physically like I mean, even.

if I was at my my athletic peak, I. wouldn't be competing with these guys. now. They're terrifying. But. you know, like. to to know that I'm getting into a fight. with someone that's as game as me, but. has also had the experience as well as. the wear and tear, you know what I mean? >> Yeah, evenly matched. Like look at. Pacquiao's about to fight Mayweather. Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. Right? You. know, like fighting Terence Crawford, you'd be like, "Yeah, don't do that.". >> Exactly. Yeah, like I don't want to see. you get stretched. You know what I mean?

But like you guys are both in your late. 40s, like okay, yeah. All right. I'll I'll pay for that. Yeah, it's as long as they're not. gone. You know, there's some guys that. they get to a certain point and they're. like, "Why. why is their family letting them. compete? Why isn't anybody stepped in? Doesn't anybody recognize their skills. are gone? Doesn't anybody recognize they. get knocked out way too easily now?". There's a bunch of fighters like that. that I just really wish would not be. doing it anymore. Yeah. And the thing is.

it's sad about it as well is And this is. where I feel like the like the the. community around MMA has probably. changed in the last decade or two. Is like the old the veteran fighters. were just were carried in such regard. whereas now you're are the highlight of. somebody else's the start of somebody. else's career. Right. >> And and a lot of the [snorts] fans, I. mean, certainly what I see online, they're very dismissive of fighters that. at one point were great and are now not. quite where they used to be and you. know, they start throwing around words. like washed and stuff.

>> Yeah. Like you got to you got to respect. where these guys came from. Like no one. lives forever. No one is at their. athletic athletic peak forever. But we. also should still be celebrating what. people have achieved, you know? And I. feel like that's something that we're. not we don't get as much in the sport. and that's partly because the young. fighters get matched with the veterans. to, you know, like. you know, bring Ken Shamrock back out of. retirement and dust him off for Rich. Franklin to fight him because no one. knew who Rich was and he was so close to. a title shot. Do you know what I mean? Like that that was one of those moments.

where I'm like. that's kind of a. I don't I don't like that fight, you. know what I mean? Because because I can. see what what's being done there. Right. >> And I mean, not that Shogun might have. needed it, but the boost that he would. have got from smashing the hell out of. Nate Diaz, you know, that that was kind of part of the. benefit of throwing Nate into that. fight, you know? And and that they're they're they're the. fights that I would like to not see. anymore cuz I think we get more fights. out of some of these guys towards the. end of their career where they. maybe their athleticism is not where it. was, but their knowledge is way ahead of.

where it used to be. Like we we go back, you know, we were talking about about. the old days and when we first getting. into it and when MMA first became a. thing. Like me as a 17-year-old sitting. I I wheeled the TV in with the VHS and I. put the tape in and I watched UFC 2 and. 3 and I had this feeling of I'm like now. I'm questioning myself and everything. that everything about me as a martial. artist. Like I have to do this. And if I don't do this, I'm going to be. questioning myself my whole life.

But at the same time [clears throat] I'm. looking at this going, well, I know one martial art really well, taekwondo, and I know probably four or. five other martial arts all right. You. know, Wing Chun. I've done some traditional jujitsu and. boxed quite a lot. You know what I mean? So like I had a decent handle but. I also have a a library of martial arts. books and I would sit in front of that. that library and think to myself like. how am I going to consume all of this. information? And it wasn't like okay, I. need this bit of information and this.

and it wasn't a case of absorbing what. is useful and rejecting what's useless. I had to absorb everything in order to. go through that shedding process and it. just felt so overwhelming. Like I. remember going into fights feeling like. I have no idea how this is going to play. out. Like I don't I don't know half of. this guy's skill set just purely because. I haven't had the time to learn all of. this stuff. And it's like the more you. pick at it, the more it, you know, it's. like it's like you're hitting a rock and. all of a sudden it falls in and it's a. massive cave inside and it's just full. of information and I'm like how am I.

going to consume all of this knowledge? You know what I mean? It was I I. remember feeling very very overwhelmed. by it all and and. that fed into a lot of anxiety during. fight week which was, you know, something that that everybody always. manages but. if I look back that was where my anxiety. came from. It was the it was the over. analysis of the sport and the feeling. like I was never going to be able to. learn all of this information. Whereas. now in actuality I feel very very. opposite. I feel like now if I was going. back my training would be very very. focused and very very streamlined. But.

that's because I've had years and years. of experience of of watching the sport. and knowing what works and what doesn't. and pulling things apart. You know what. I mean? So. it was almost like and I said this I've. said this to a lot of young fighters. If I if I in my career at one point. could have stopped and taken six months. out or a year out just to be a student. and just to learn and absorb that would. have been a real benefit for me. When I stopped fighting and I was doing. commentary and what doing inside the. octagon and stuff. like my knowledge was growing on a daily.

basis. I felt it and and I and I just I. thought to myself, man, I could have. done this when I was in my career. But I I I didn't because I was. I was partly scared of the of the the. over analysis of it, you know, and and. partly partly concerned that I was going. to show myself so much that I didn't. know that I was just going to feel like. it was endless. It was a bottomless pit. of knowledge. >> Right. >> You know? Whereas when I started doing Inside the. Octagon and I was. I was watching fights in chronological. order from the beginnings of people's.

careers all the way through. And then I. was going back and I was watching. prelims of of fights that I wouldn't. have watched in my career because I only. want to watch this guy and this guy. because I don't want all of this I. sometimes I I watch somebody and feel. like I'm getting worse when I'm watching. them, you know what I mean? So I'd be. very very specific about who I would. watch. Whereas in actuality, if you. watch the whole card start to finish, the fight IQ increases generally as the. card goes on. So the guys at the top. make far less mistakes, and they're the.

guys that I'm watching. So I'm watching people that are, you. know, way closer to flawless than I am. Mhm. But if I watch the prelims, I can see. the same people the same mistakes that. people are making. They're just making. them far more regularly on the prelims. So it was almost like watching the. prelims was uncovering problems. and and bad decisions much quicker than. it was when I was watching the few. specific guys that I was trying to learn. from. So there was a real benefit in. just absorbing all of it. And then the. next stage was and it was specifically.

Robbie Lawler against Rory MacDonald. It was the first time I realized I was. watching a fight without putting myself. in the cage. And and it was it was like an epiphany. I was like, oh, I'm I'm just watching these two guys. as a fan. I'm not comparing Robbie. Lawler to me and Rory MacDonald to me. And my process of preparing for an. opponent was very similar to what I. would do for for an analysis. I would I'd get into him. I would watch. it as much as I could of that person, but then I would go back and watch my. fights that I knew were available to.

them. So I'm now I'm watching my fights. with their skill set in mind. Right? So I'm now I'm I'm I'm almost I'm. almost pretending to be that person. to watch me and go, "Okay, well I can do. this to him and I can do this to him.". But there's always a bit of ego involved. there. So like say with Carlos Condit, an incredible fighter. Right? He's great. at everything, but he's not going to be. able to take me down and there's no way. in hell he's going to be able to knock. me out. You know, [laughter] mohawk flapping in. the wind. You know, and it and it was. like and that was that was my ego.

getting in the way. Cuz if I was looking. at Carlos Condit versus Robbie Lawler or. Carlos Condit versus GSP, I would have. respected his counter punching. Right? But my ego was a block in that. scenario. So by watching two fighters and being. able to remove myself entirely, I just. saw things differently. And it it took my my [ __ ] out of it. It. took my drama out of the way. That's. interesting. Your ego really can get in. the way. Mhm. And it really makes you. make terrible decisions. Like how many. people have taken fights they shouldn't. have taken just because their ego their.

ego just gave them a distorted. perception. >> Absolutely. There was this guy that was. training with us that was really good at. jiu-jitsu and he had no striking and he. was going to take an MMA fight and um. I remember saying to him. "You you have to understand that like. what you can do to people on the ground. right? You could you you could get do. make a person feel helpless, right? Someone could do that to you standing up. and it's way scarier. It's way scarier. Like you have no idea. Like you have no. you think it's this. this weird Dunning-Kruger effect, right?

Like you think you're really good. So. you think you're good at that. Like you. have this distorted You don't know. anything about striking. Like his. striking was like pop pop like. rudimentary like nothing. I'm like, "Someone's going to set YOU UP AND. BOOM!". AND HEAD KICK YOU. They're going to And. he got TKO'd. He got beat up badly. And. I think it really [ __ ] him up, too. >> Really? Yeah. Well, it's almost. [clears throat] like you pull the. curtain back and you realize there's a. whole other world behind the curtain.

that you you not anticipated was there. But the scariest world to not be good at. is the striking world. >> Absolutely. That's the scariest world. >> And I've I've tried to quantify this. myself cuz it cuz. it is an interesting thing because often. I find myself I'm explaining the nuances. of feints and movements that are opening. doors for other things to land. Mhm. I. mean, Anderson Silva was a master at. this. Conor McGregor was a master at. this. >> Yeah. You know, and. and the way that they deliver their. techniques, there's such a there's such. an elite level of intelligence to it. that it's easy to just think that it's.

chance what they're doing, right? Like. like take take a Conor McGregor Cowboy. for example, right? And and the beau- the beauty of Inside. the Octagon is I would download all the. angles of the fight. I would watch every. angle. The full fight from the whole. whole whole angle. So, I'd see different. things. And there's a there's a moment in that. fight. And this is this is the benefit. of of uh. say Conor McGregor say his brand is the. left hand, right? Conor McGregor's left.

hand brand was a very, very powerful. weapon for him to take into the fight. against Cowboy because Cowboy was so. focused on it. And there's an angle from. from Cowboy's back to against the fence. and he sees Conor close his left hand. And straight away Cowboy goes, "Left. hand's coming.". And he moves onto the head kick. Mhm. It. was the It was the threat of the left. hand coming Mhm. that would force Cowboy. to make that mistake. Anderson Silva. Vitor Belfort, when he looked at his leg. Mhm. and kicked him in the face. Yeah. Like the idea of him being able to sell.

And And you look at that fight, Vitor's. checking the inside low kick while the. while he's got Anderson's toes in his. mouth. Mhm. You know what I mean? It's. like he was able to sell a technique. purely with his eye line. Purely with a. faint. And Adesanya is another master at. it as well. And that to me then shows that there are. we've got ranges in MMA. But in each one. of those ranges there's dimensions as. well. Right? There's dimensions of. understanding. Like you could be a. button mashing fighter and a lot of. people have success with button mashing. Right. They throw the technique that.

they worked in the changing room warming. up on the pads. But then there are people that. understand that each one of these. techniques and each each thing that they. do or or piece that they have in their. arsenal. is a set up for something else, you. know? >> Well, that's what's interesting about. people that have a real system. Like. Duane Ludwig. Have you ever trained with. him? I haven't, but we we fought, didn't. we? So I've still I mean I was a huge. fan of him back in the day. I remember. him TKO'ing somebody in cage King of the. Cage up against the fence. Oh yeah, and. he did I fell in love with him. Yeah.

That was King Kyshenko, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, great great system of footwork. though, isn't it? >> Oh, he has an amazing system. And his. system is like he has a giant notebook. filled with like techniques where. everything his system is like very well. thought out. And it's really interesting. because he didn't fight the way he. teaches. >> No. That's what's really interesting. Like. TJ Dillashaw is probably his greatest. student. And TJ fought completely. different than Duane. He constantly. switched stances, constantly was like he.

was giving you so many looks and you. know. it's it's wild watching when you know. you watch like Duane's style versus what. he would teach cuz it was just like oh, if I had only known this while I was. fighting. If I had only known this while. I was coming up. If I had only known. this early early on in my career. Yeah. And this is where I don't think we get. enough people crossing over to coaching. afterwards. Like whenever I see former. fighter in the corner, Mike Brown, Robbie Lawler, whoever it is. Like I'm I'm filled with confidence that.

the sport is moving on because they're. going to pass on information that. they've taken on from somebody else and. refined, you know? Like my taekwondo. teacher told me when I was a kid if if. you're not better than me at my age, I've failed as a teacher. Right. And. like and he always McRory's name is he. always. gave me everything. There was never any. restriction because he wanted to see. what I would do with it and where I. would take it because then same with. Eddie Bravo who is. we were just chatting about it. backstage um. Remember Shawn Bollinger? Sure. He used.

to be able to heel hook himself and he. created the double bagger and there's a. few different things but I I remember. being on the mats and watching Eddie. Bravo listen to one of his 16 17 year. old students to see what he could learn. from him. Mhm. >> And that's that's such an unusual thing. in a lot of martial arts schools is the. teacher being a student, right? And um. that that's something that always stood. out to me about particular people. Like. I would never want to train a fighter. and hold anything back from them because. I always want to be just a little bit. better.

You know, I want to I want to give you. everything, throw everything I've got on. the table and then see what you pick up, see what you run with and see what you. can teach me from it. Yeah, it'll make. you better too. And that's the thing. Absolutely. But. you have to have a an honest ego. Yes. >> Like you have to be able to really say, okay, this is how good I am. I can't. pretend I'm better than I am for these. people. This is how good I am. And you. have to be able to show it. Yeah. And. that's one of the beautiful things about. jiu-jitsu is like you have to roll. Like. if you're a teacher, you're rolling with.

people. But if Eddie gets caught in. something, he'll tell people. Yeah. And. he'll show you. Show me what you did. And he'll everybody look what he did. And he'll bring people around. He's like. he's like he'll let you know, I'm just a. human being. I just happen to be really. good at this. And even if I'm really. good at this, there's openings, there's. holes, there's things that I don't know. and this is a constantly changing and. evolving game where people are bringing. in new things. And some of these new. things, you know, you analyze it and you go, well, here's a simple way to stop this. and as soon as someone knows this, that.

that submission's gone. And so then you. kill it and you put it aside. Well, we. tried that one, didn't work. Sometimes. you're like, try to stop this." And. you're like, "I don't. I think that's legit." And then guys. would get down, they would go, "What if. you do this? What if you do that?" And. you you're like he'll have classes where. I have like 15 guys come up with. different solutions to these problems. and say, "Okay, get him in it." And put. him in it. All right, now how do you. finish it? And you grab here. Okay. What would you do here? And then like. you have guys like break things down and.

that's that honest approach. Someone told me that remember. >> when um Royce Gracie tap down Severn. with a triangle? >> Mhm. They were training at one of the. Gracie schools. Um a friend of mine and. he saw that and he said, "Can you show. us that?" He said, "You're not ready for. that yet.". I can't show you that. And he's like, "What the [ __ ] are you. talking about? Like the guy. it's it's a technique. Like show me the. technique." Like he just did it and he's. like, "No, we're not going to Like they. were holding back.". >> Yeah. So in the early days there was a.

lot of holding back. You know, this is. like what was that? What year was that? That'd be like '94 or something like. that, right? But then you know, but then. like everyone's reputation as a coach. back in those days couldn't really be. questioned too much. You know what I. mean? Because there was no way of them. proving it. I just I can't it's too. deadly. Right. >> [laughter]. >> You know, you know, you know what I. mean? Whereas you know, like like the people. that's and those those people stand out. in my mind. You know, Eddie was one of. those people. He stood out in my mind. because. because of how he he approached the the.

sessions. He was always a student even. when he was the teacher. Yeah. >> And the other thing as well that you. know, everybody wanted to name something. in the 10th Planet system, you know? So. everyone was trying to create something. and make it stick. >> Mhm. So it like it created this really. like it it was a it was a a thriving. environment to be in. I loved being at. Legends back in the day at the old and I. you know, obviously Bomb Squad as well. before that. Um Yeah, what year did you. start training with us? It was Legends. It was after the Bomb Squad had closed. I went back to the Bomb Squad well, what.

what was the Bomb Squad to train with. Paulo Tocha, um of Bloodsport fame. Yeah. But yeah, legends. It would And it. just opened when I when I arrived. >> So, what year was that? 2005? Six? >> probably 2006, yeah. Wow. Yeah, cuz. before that I'd been training in America. for like. >> years ago. Isn't that crazy? >> two decades, man. That's when we met, 20. [ __ ] years ago. Yeah, and a lot's changed. >> Nuts. >> Yeah. It's nuts how time just [ __ ]. waits for no one. I was I was just. saying to the guys the guys here, like.

it's funny, like the Joe Rogan. experience, if you'd have asked me what. the Joe Rogan experience was 20 years. ago, it was getting crushed in side. control. >> [laughter]. >> That was my experience of Joe Rogan. Being on the mats during the class and. watching you hit smash the bag with your. back kick, and then stepping onto the. mats and just And you had you almost had. like the opposite game to most of the. guys on the mat, cuz all the 10th Planet. guys were like pulling you into half. guard or into guard and trying to wrap. you up, whereas you were very much a top. game player. Yeah. That's at least how it felt to me.

It was like you were the different role. on the mat to everybody else. Well, I I got obsessed with head and arm. chokes. Yeah, I felt it. >> [laughter]. >> Just You know, I it [ __ ] my neck up, I. think. I wound up having bulging disc in. my neck. It was either that or not. tapping the guillotines. But I I got a. head and arm cha- I I developed it where. it was like if I locked it on, you were. pretty much done. You know, and when I. started tapping like brown belts and. higher-level guys with that, and then I. just really concentrated on it. And it's.

one of those things where it's like you. know how it is, just like with a kick. Like everyone has strong legs, you know, you can lift weights with your legs, but. like how come some people can kick. harder than other people? Well, it's the. the coordination, the technique, the. refinement of it where it just And. there's something like that in a. squeeze, like Marcelo. Like Marcelo. would get your back and his rear naked. choke, Marcelo Garcia was just like a. master. He's not a big strong guy, like. so what is it? And so I that was like my. number one go-to was the head and arm.

choke. If I could get that [ __ ] I was. pretty sure I could lock it up. So I. just developed this style of just. crushing where I would just have my. whole body would just lock onto. something like a pitbull, you know? Yeah. But it was But that's. interesting the difference between. striking and grappling and going back to. what we were talking about a minute ago. Like there's something mechanical about. grappling, right? If you pull on. somebody's head, the head's going to. come down or they're going to force back. and the head's going to go back. There's. a There's a a cause and reaction in.

grappling almost all the time that even. a person that doesn't fight can see the. basics of, Yes. >> right? Where if I pick one leg up and I. throw you around, you're going to lose. your balance, you know? Even something. as simple as that. But with striking, there's so many so. many things that happen with striking. where no one touches anybody, right? Especially when you've got And then this. is where the dimensions come in. You. know, you've got the button mashers at. the bottom, you've got the guys that. have refined their button mashing skill. sets and now they've got two or three. combos that work well for them, or. they've got a particular technique that. they've refined to a point where they.

can deliver it in 10 different ways. >> Mhm. But then you've got people that. understand that each one of their. weapons is a different thing at a. different time and serves a different. purpose at a different time, you know? Yeah. >> Like like with a jab, for example. Everybody in their game has got a jab. But if you strip that jab down into its. core components and you go, you know, uh you you look at like a like a. secondary identifier, right? Of of that. technique. There are going to be differences, right? If I if I throw my right hand.

straight and I throw it over your jab or. I throw it when I split your cross, that. to me is three different techniques, right? It's the same the same weapon. that you're using, but the delivery. system's different. >> Right. Right? But then on top of that. complexity, you've got all of the the. the the damage that you can inflict that. draws responses to people, right? Like. the calf kick. Now you can feint the. calf kick and get someone to pick their. leg up. And like that's a very, very. basic example. Or when someone's, you. know, been hit with a body shot, you. faint a body shot and their heads almost.

always open. There There are certain. things I mean head shot dead is a good. another good example. How often do you. see someone throw a punch followed by a. kick and and knock their opponent out? >> used to teach that? Is that right? >> Yeah, he taught me that. That was That. was his thing. He really liked the. shield division with a punch and have. the kick come behind it. See, that's. that's that for me is that's one. delivery mechanism of one particular. technique. >> Mhm. Right? And there are lots and lots. of those. >> Lots of them. >> Lots of them. But that's where it I find. it really interesting is in how how.

I I I I sat one day and I thought to. myself, "I'm going to I'm going to nail. down the jab. I'm going to start with. that." Cuz I I have intended on writing. a a book or two about this at some. point. And I started with the jab. And I. got to like 20,000 words. And I thought. to myself, "No one's going to read this. shit.". >> [laughter]. >> Like I'm going to I'm going to sell one. copy and it's going to be myself so I. can criticize it. Do you know what I mean? So, it's like. >> Well, you've always been a very thorough. guy in the way you analyze things, which. makes you a perfect candidate for.

someone who's a commentator. Cuz you you. really have a very complex understanding. of the mechanics of movement. You know, of all the different things that are. happening. You You're not just like you. know, "Oh, he hit him hard." You like. you you're looking at all the different. layers and. you're you're you analyze things on. multi-levels, which I always find. fascinating. Like you have a great. commentary style. It's really excellent. You're absolutely one of the best out. there. That means a lot to me. Thank. you. Yeah, you're great. I'm fortunate. enough to have a bit of the tism, you.

see? So, it's like I see the patterns. and things. >> thing. Yeah, touching the tism is good. >> Tism, yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. I don't. think I have that. No? I don't know. What are you What are you doing? >> going Yeah, my my dad's ADHD. My mom's. My mom's tism for sure. You know what I. mean? We're Yeah. >> a bit. >> I don't have the tism, but I have this. weird ability to lock in on things where. the world goes away and I don't need. food. Yeah. >> I can just I could do something for like. 12 hours in a row. 100% I forget to eat. all the time all the time. In fact, Tom.

Hardy's just announced that he's he's. autistic. He's just collaborated with a. brand and they've they've created a. whole line of of of you know, no eye. contact rash guards and stuff. >> How [laughter] convenient he's autistic. Come on. You know what was really. interesting about being autistic? Like. unless you're coding in your sleep, shut. the [ __ ] up. >> [laughter]. >> You know what was really interesting is. I I have a friend called Scroobius Pip. He's a rapper in the in the UK. You know. Scroobius? Yeah. So, he was in he was in. Taboo with Tom Hardy. And he told me a story when they were. driving from LA to Vegas and Scroobius.

Pip his his record label's called Speech. Development Records. He has a stammer. Mhm. He has a speech impediment and. on this drive between LA and Vegas, he's. driving, Tom Hardy's in the passenger. seat and Tom starts that's a mimic his. stammer, but apologize for it. He's like. I I can't I can't help it. Like he's. >> Oh, wow. >> he's like absorbing. parts of his character while he's. filming. >> for a new Very similar to like it. happened to with with Johnny Depp and. Bill Murray when they played Hunter.

Thompson, right? Like like you like you. watch Jack Sparrow and Jack Sparrow's. got a Hunter Thompson kind of move to. him. And even Johnny Depp said himself. he don't think he was ever the same. after he played Hunter Thompson in Fear. and Loathing. Well, he was such a giant. Hunter Thompson fan. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think it's interesting about. like. like certain method actors, people that. that can play a role to like Jim Carrey. is another good example, Christian Bale, right? Daniel Day-Lewis, oh my goodness, maybe the best. Like their ability to to. like almost like Shang Tsung out of.

Mortal Kombat, they can absorb a bit of. the person's character. Yeah. >> And then kind of become that character. Yeah. >> Like I met Tom a couple of times in at. Henzo's in New York. And he's I mean. he's a he's a lovely guy, but he's like. kind of hunched over, no eye contact, and you know. Oh, he is. Well, I I think. a little bit of that is fame as well. I. think so. There's a little bit of fame. that just weirds you out. Like if I go. places, I try not to make eye contact. sometimes. Yeah, it's just too odd. I. just like, "Hi.". Like you you might think I'm autistic,

but I'm just [ __ ] weirded out by too. many people. I I totally [snorts] get. that. You know, one one of my favorite. shows that you ever did was with Henry. Rollins, the first one. Mhm. And he said. something that always stuck in my mind. He said, "I'm very good being the party. I'm not really good being at the party.". Yeah. >> Stuck in my mind. I I feel like that all. the time. But I'm I'm I go the opposite. way. I I realized recently I. I hold too much eye contact. I And I. find it exhausting. I'm I was walking. through the park the.

next to the hotel last night. And I'm. I'm like having a conversation in my. head like, "Stop it. Looking at people. Stop looking people in the eye. >> [laughter]. >> Stop making eye contact." I do it all. the time. I like I lock in. I'm even. doing it now. Like we're talking. I'm. kind of locked in to you. And I even in. your conversation you you like have a. look away. I I struggle to do that. I'm. actually trying to consciously do it. sometimes. >> have to sometimes if I'm thinking of an. idea. Yeah, I look away. My wife said that I wonder if that's. autism. Cuz it's like one of my daughters has my.

recall, my ability to like she'll talk. about like uh. you know, whatever it is. Like she she. can rattle off like information about. the Titanic. Like and it's weird. She's. like, "You have your [ __ ] dad's. brain." Like that's nuts. But I do when. I do it, I look away sometimes. Like I. look up. Like I'm talking about things. If I really want to be clear about what. I'm saying, I look up. And it's because. I want to I I think it's because I want. to take out the element of eye to eye. and communicating with someone. Looking.

away while thinking, known as gaze. aversion, a common cognitive behavior. that helps people process information by. reducing external distractions. Yeah. that's what I'm doing. By looking at an. empty space or upward, the brain shifts. from environmental input to internal. cognitive tasks such as memory retrieval. or complex thinking. Yeah, that's what I. do. I don't even I didn't know it was a. Similar like when people turn down the. radio when you're trying to find where. you're going, you know? Oh, yeah. You. have to like block it whatever it is. You still see, but you have to like, you. know, All right, or someone's yapping at.

you while you're trying to figure out. where you're going and they're telling. you and I tell her And they're like, "Will you shut the [ __ ] up? I I don't. know where I am." Yeah. We have to. figure out where we're going. You know, I find myself doing it when I'm walking. through airports, when I'm traveling. with I've got my wife with me, Veronica. Like I notice I I consciously don't make. eye contact with her when we're. traveling and I don't know why that is. It's like I feel a little bit like. there's enough to be dealing with right. now. If I then open a conversation with. you by looking at you, that's another. layer of Yes. >> Let me just deal with the airport. >> Yes. Well, you know, people don't think. about that, but when you're involved in.

multiple tasks at the same time, you. know, you're taking away your ability to. concentrate and do a great job at any. one of those things. If there's multiple. things going on at the same time, that's. why like I used to do interviews in my. car and I stopped doing them because I. sound like a [ __ ] and I realized it's. cuz I'm thinking about cars. >> Right. I'm going 60 miles an hour. There's a car to the left. There's a car. to the right. There's a car in front of. me. Car behind. This guy This [ __ ]. [ __ ] Oh, this guy on a motorcycle. He's going to get killed. Look at him. zipping in between the lanes. And so I'm. thinking all these different things and.

then I'm trying to explain different. stuff. I thought it would be a great way. to multitask. Let me do this [ __ ] stupid interview. that I don't want to do anyway and let. me do it while I'm on the phone. It'll. be kind of fun. But meanwhile, I just. sound like a [ __ ] because like I I. can't articulate well cuz I'm thinking. about too many different things. simultaneously. >> Well, you're already multitasking. >> Yeah, which is why I like the sensory. deprivation tanks so much. Yeah, cuz. there's none There's nothing. There's no. tasks. Is that still a regular thing for.

you? >> I got it right here. Have you really? Yeah. Got it right here. I've only done. it a couple of times, but I I I find it. really. >> these days? I'm in the UK. I'm right in. the Midlands in the UK. But, I mean, only. >> Getting a little cookie over there, isn't it? Yes. >> Might want to bail before they lock you. up for thought crime. >> right? I know. [laughter] For real, it's. like I'm I'm conscious I'm conscious and. cautious all the time. I feel right now. like I'm kind of I'm holding my tongue. on a lot of things. Just purely because I I kind of. I know that when I when I start talking, I'm just. you know, cuz that's how I am. You know,

I I'm very opinionated, unfortunately. Well, that's a good thing. Well, if I. decide to start talking, then I won't I. won't shut up and I've not I've not. opened that floodgate yet, but I do feel. like it's coming. But, I also feel like. I need to I need to feel like I I need. to prepare for it a little bit, you know. what I mean? Like there's a bunch of. books I need to consume before I'm. I'm in the right place where I can open. up and fully express yourself about. certain things. Yeah, it's. [clears throat] just where it's going. right now is not in a good direction. It's going It's tightening down on. people's ability to express themselves.

And you got so many issues. It's. happening everywhere though, isn't it? I. mean, even like, you know, like I mean, uh, as a as a comedian, you know, freedom of. speech is so im- important to you and to. your industry, you know what I mean? And. Mhm. I feel like that's changed a lot, you know, across across the world. It's. the same in Europe as well in a lot of. places. I think in America in comedy, it was. closing down and then people realized we. can't have this and it's open right back. up, right? Okay. You know, there was a. bunch of people that were trying to um,

conflate jokes with your actual. opinions. You know, I talked about on. stage once. I'm like, you know, Bob. Marley didn't really shoot the sheriff, you know? It's just. when Quentin Tarantino's filming a film, nobody's dying, okay? This is. entertainment and you say things that. you don't really believe because it's an. outrageous thing to say cuz it's funny. And there's this understanding of that. as an audience member. You're supposed. to be able to accept that. But, then you. have these [ __ ] out there in the world. that are just looking to find words that.

someone said and ascribe them as if they. you know, put it put it down on paper as. if this is a statement. Like this is. what this person actually thinks and. believes. Like, no. That's not what. we're [ __ ] around. We're talking. [ __ ] Like, you can't pretend. Yeah. And. then take a small clip and put it. completely out of context on Tik Tok or. something like that. time, man. All the. time about all kinds of things. People. Which is part of the game. People love. to do that. It's like it's fine. It's. it's okay. You know what you.

it's fine for Tik Tok minded people. The. real problem is people that don't know. you and don't understand you and then. they get an impression of you based off. of that. This is their first. introduction to you and it's based off. well, the [ __ ] that guy. But, you know, that's just part of the. game. Yeah. >> It's going to happen. >> I think comedians and satire is one of. the last lines of defense against. tyranny. I really do. Like I I watch. Prime Minister's Questions every. Wednesday and I listen to just the. nonsense that comes out of it. And we've. got Kier Starmer and Kemi Badenoch just.

going at each other over just nonsense. It's it's it's not nothing real not no. real. no real quality of conversation is. coming out of that. But, what I feel. like is if we had a panel of comedians. sitting in the gallery somewhere, you. know, you've got a Robert Mitchell and. Ricky Gervais and James Acaster and a. few others just sitting there just going. well, that sounds like nonsense and then. poking fun at it and making a joke out. of it. It it brings a reality to things. that I don't think I think we're lacking. in a lot of ways. Well, the Lakota had.

that in their tribes. They had a thing. called the Heyoka which they called the. sacred clown. And the Heyoka would be able to make fun. of everything and as soon as you. couldn't make fun of something, you knew. it was [ __ ] So, it's like you. couldn't make fun of the chief's wife or. you couldn't make fun of you know, someone some warrior couldn't make fun. of something. As soon as you couldn't. make fun of something, like, "Hey, why. you so defensive? How come I can't make. fun of that?". >> That's interesting. >> Yeah. I mean, look, it had to actually. be funny. >> Heyoka. >> Heyoka. >> It had to actually be funny, of course,

or you'd probably get killed. That's. your [laughter] new move. That's your. new move, Joe. You need to set up a. heyoka for the world. Well, I I think. that's what comedy is in in in many. ways. It's a test. You test things. It. doesn't mean it always works, and it. doesn't mean that jokes are always. funny, and it doesn't mean that. sometimes people don't overreach. You. know, Patrice O'Neal had a great. statement about that, where he was. talking about. uh something that happened on the Opie. and Anthony show. And um he was on Fox.

News, and they were criticizing it, and. he was saying, "You got to understand. that all jokes come from the same place. They all come the from the place of. trying to be funny. And some of them you might find. offensive, and some of them you might. laugh at really hard, but it is the. mindset, the place that from is all the. same. And I was like, "That's so wise.". Cuz that's really the best way to. describe it, cuz that's really what. everyone's trying to do. They're just. trying to make people laugh. It's just. sometimes it doesn't come out right, or.

sometimes it's a miss, like, especially. if it's an ad-lib. Like, at any moment. in time, you generally don't know what. the next word out of your mouth is going. to be, like, right now. Right? I don't I. don't know. I'm just freeballing. And. sometimes you'll say something really. hilarious, and sometimes you say. something you're like, "Cut that out, Jamie.". >> [laughter]. >> You know, cuz it's like, you try, you. swing, you miss, you know? You don't. know, and. people. want to take these things that you're. freeballing with and just trying to make.

laughs, and and. and call them a statement, and think of. that as like this well-thought-out, you know, like, you you sat down, you. wrote this out, you went over it with a. fine-tooth comb. This is my press. release. Like, that's not what comedy. is. It's jokes. You're just [ __ ]. around. And if you can't take a joke, you're probably annoying. And you you. really shouldn't be in any position to. regulate discourse cuz you're not a fun. person, right? You're you're a person.

that's looking to take things very. seriously. We know a lot of people like. that. They're bad faith actors and you. know, they they play gotcha. You just. said this. Like you you really mean. that? So tell your position on that. Like oh, [ __ ] off. Yeah. Like you're not. I'm not interested in engaging with you. because you're not real. You know, like. this is not a real thing. You're playing. a stupid game. I'm playing a game of. we're two human beings communicating. with each other and we're going to. overstep sometimes. We're going to slip. up. We're going to And every now and. then you're going to nail it, knock it. out of the park. And even if I don't.

like you, if you [ __ ] make me laugh, I'll I'll clap. >> Yeah. >> It's kind of similar to trash talking, isn't it? You know what I mean? And if. somebody I like one of the funniest. lines ever was and I remember Conor as. he was saying it, he was laughing at. himself. And it was the back and forth. with Chad Mendes. And he was Chad was saying you can't. wrestle and Conor he was on a live feed. at BT Sport studio and I remember it so. clearly cuz he was like as he was saying. it, he was finding it funny himself. He. was like, "I'll wrestle my balls on your. forehead.". >> [laughter]. >> It was just And then he's laughing and.

everybody in the room's laughing. Even. Chad Mendes is laughing. You know what I. mean? That's funny, dude. >> the Jeremy Stephens one? "Who the [ __ ]. is that guy?" And that's become. [laughter] a part of MMA lore, right? Like it's amazing how he's influenced. that. >> [snorts]. >> Oh, he's a he was the master [ __ ]. talker. And also the master at emotional. warfare. Like you like the Jose Aldo fight, I. remember being there for that fight. going Aldo is out of sorts. His whole he looked [ __ ] up. His body. looked smooth. He didn't look He didn't.

look like he. wanted to be there. And he just threw. himself at Conor and got cracked. >> Wasn't it crazy? He was so emotionally. torn. And like the moment was so big. And then Conor across the other side. looked so relaxed and loose cuz he know. he knew he had won the emotional. warfare. The emotional warfare was won. And that is a giant factor in fights, whether or not someone bites on. emotional warfare. And I think that's a. giant factor this weekend. I watched.

your war room. By the way, by the way, I. love your YouTube show. It's really. excellent. >> Thank you. And um this fight this weekend is a lot. of emotional warfare, all right? Uh. Strickland has said some wild [ __ ] about. Hamzat. He said he'd shoot him. He calls. him a goat [ __ ]. >> [laughter]. >> I mean. But it's interesting to me that it. doesn't seem like Hamzat is biting on. any of it. >> No. He's like, "This guy, he said this. thing, but he doesn't believe it.". >> Yeah. And you're like, "Whoa." Like,

he's not he doesn't seem upset about it. It doesn't seem like it's under his. skin. He's like, "This guy he says he. wants war, but I don't think he wants. war. He'd be dead.". That's it. >> That's how it should be. I mean, Strickland would be the same. I I don't. think you could say anything to. Strickland that would offend him. He's. just. >> He'll laugh. Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah, he'll laugh. >> Whereas like say like when I had that. fight against Marcus Davis coming up, like I was surprised at how angry he got. at me. Like in the countdown show, I'm. like I'm laughing. I'm like I can't I.

literally can't believe he's this het up. and wound up about it, you know? Mhm. >> you go back to the Conor thing. The You. remember the press conference where he. stole Aldo's belt, the last one they did. Yes. Yes. I was behind the the stage for. that one to start with when they were. both being kept separate and Dana was. there and um and then when they went on. stage, I was on Conor's side of the. stage at the bottom of the stairs. And the the anger just emanating off. Aldo the whole day was exhausting for me. just to be around. And then after the.

the the press conference where Conor had. taken his belt, as soon as they circled. back and they were behind the thing. again, Aldo was like. beside himself angry. Yeah. And as soon. as I saw that, I'm like, "Wow, that is. it's That's That's like a level of. witchcraft that you see in like the. fainting of striking." And when you can. start to pull somebody's emotions out. like that. Yeah. And I'm like for me, I. think I think fighters should be. completely impenetrable. Like no one. should be able to say anything to a.

fighter to upset them. I just It It's. It's an immediate weakness that you. throw on the table for someone to get. their teeth into. >> Well, it's one of the things that I. really appreciate about Pereira. His. stoicism. He's always just stoic. You. could talk all that mad [ __ ] about him. You know, and like the Ankalaev the. rematch with Ankalaev. Like Ankalaev had. talked so much [ __ ] after that first. fight. >> Yeah. You know, and then when he blasted. him out in the first round, then he went. like this. Beautiful. >> You know, the same thing with Jamal.

Hill. Yeah. You know, I mean he he's. very stoic, but afterwards his. celebration is even like, "Look.". "Look.". >> [laughter]. >> It's so cool. I I like the fact that his. his coldness is a part of his brand. Oh, yeah. You know. Yeah, he's he's very. cold. That staredown. Like him and Jiří. Procházka. It's so disturbing that Jiří. thought he was using spiritual warfare. Like Jiří accused him of using sorcery. He's like, "No magic this time.". >> [laughter].

>> Yeah. Jiří so crazy. Such a crazy request. Yeah. Like do do not invoke spirits. >> [laughter]. >> I had someone trying to get a witch. doctor on me in Brazil once. Really? >> They thought I was casting spells. Yeah, they. They tried [laughter] to get a witch. doctor. Yeah. Casting spells is fun cuz if you. believe it, it'll work, right? If you. really believe That's why voodoo works, right? Cuz if you believe in voodoo, it. will [ __ ] you up. If someone says, "I. will curse you." You're like, "Oh, no, I'm [ __ ] cursed." [ __ ] If you really.

believe that, it will work. Yeah. If you. can [snorts] make If you can make. someone. afraid of something or sensitive to. something, you know, and and you know, and I. I was I was always a big fan of Marcus. Davis and I knew how dangerous he was in. the division, but I also knew that if I. poked him in nothing in the right. direction, I would get a particular. version of him that suited me. Mhm. Right? And there were two versions of. Marcus, right? There was the Marcus that. showed up and he was like. stacked, looked like the Hulk, and he. like okay, he's going to grapple. Or.

there was the Marcus that was a little. bit slender and he just looked different. and that version of Marcus Davis was. knocking everybody out. That's when he's. coming into box. And and I knew that if I pushed him. enough cuz I it was easier for me to. deal with the heavily muscled grappler. version of Marcus Davis than the slick. southpaw boxer version. Mhm. So my. thought was if I can push him to be. really really angry at me, he's not. going to want to roll the dice on. striking games. He's going to want to. edge his bets and try and force the. fight into the range that I'm not very.

good at. So there was a there was a purpose to. it. But as soon as he bit on it, I was like. that was too easy. >> [laughter]. >> That was too easy. And like there was a. there was clips of him training, he's. like his nose is bleeding and he just. looks. and then that's when I'm for the. weigh-ins I made the I hate Dan Hardy. t-shirts. Because we did a like a a 10-minute. countdown show for it and I was training. at Wild Card at the time just to try and. get inside his head, you know, I'm I'm. training in a boxing gym, I'm you know, I'm expecting you to be a boxer and I. played the game really hard on that.

fight. And um. it was just it was interesting to see. how it played out because of what he. expected from me and and and the version. of him that I got, right? And and he was. he was so angry at me that his his. vision was his mind was clouded. And. even in the. was it end of the second round, he went. back and sat on his stool and it always. stuck in my mind, Mark DellaGrotte in. his corner, it wasn't advice, it wasn't. anything. He said, "You're one round. away from shutting this kid up.".

It was all about about silencing me, putting me in my place. >> Interesting. You know? And then and then. funnily enough after that, the next. fight was Mike Swick. And for the whole. training camp, Mike Swick was like he. was waiting for me to start trash. talking. So, I'm like, "I'm not going to. do it because he's expecting it and. he'll find it funny, so it's not going. to have any kind of. impact. So, I just waited until the. press conference and brought him a. runner-up trophy. >> [laughter]. >> And he was like, "I'm bringing this to. the cage on on fight night and I'm going.

to give it back to you, but you know.". But it it was it's interesting to see. what you can do what how you can affect. people like that and and and make them. act out, you know? Like the the. countdown show, the the very start of. it, it's just hilarious still in my. mind, is you've got this whole kind of it's. like dimly lit and Marcus is there and. and he's like, "You know, when I was a. kid, uh my mom used to say, 'You can't say. you hate this unless you think a little. bit about how much you dislike it every. day.'" And then there was a pause and.

the UFC nailed it with the editing and. he looked down the camera and he went, "I hate Dan Hardy." And then it cut to. me and [laughter] I'm just laughing like. a prick. Like, >> [clears throat]. >> You know? Like I and I totally I got so. much hate mail for that fight. I can't. even tell you. >> [snorts]. >> I think I've still got a folder in my. old email account cuz I saved it all. That's funny. >> I got I got death threats. I got all. kinds of stuff. Like people hated me. from that fight. But like as soon as I'm I I thought, you. know, I'm going to make a I hate Dan. Hardy t-shirt shortly to kind of like. bring some light to this. I even made. one for Marcus and he threw it back at.

me. >> [laughter]. >> But you know. It was just like I wanted a particular. version of him, you know? Just like like. what Conor did with Aldo. He primed Aldo. to run onto that counter left. And and. Aldo. a clear mind training. from a blank slate, not having any of. that psychological warfare in mind. >> would never charge like that. would have. been so much more dangerous for Conor, right? Right. He and and Conor was. always heavy on the front leg and Aldo. was one of the best leg kickers ever.

You know, he probably would have tried. to kick the legs and pe- piece them. apart from the outside and find his. motions. But Conor [snorts] was always going to. be a problem for Aldo because he's so. fast and he's so explosive and so big. He was so big for 45. He his weight cut. was hell. Watching him weigh in and that was the. days where you would actually weigh in. This is before the ceremonial weigh in. So he would have to make 145 and then. stand there and he looked like a dead. man. He looked like someone from like. [ __ ] Walking Dead. It was weird. And.

then he would just. rehydrate and the next day he'd you. know, he had to be a buck 65 when he. actually fought. >> Easy. Easy. I I'm I I I like what. they've done with the weight cutting. I. like the fact that it's done in the. morning and people can rehydrate and. stuff. The only The thing I miss is to. see people facing off when they're in. that feral or dehydrated state. >> Right. That's the thing I miss cuz like. a lot of the time I'll be looking for. reads. You know, there's the picture of. you kind of looking around. You know. what I mean? It's like you want to see. that face off and where people are in.

that state. Like what. >> That's one of my favorite things to do. is see the guys head to head looking in. each other's eyes because you just. there's a [ __ ] smell. Yeah. There's a. feeling in the air. You get a a sense. I. wear the meta glasses when I'm doing. face offs now so you can see PFL have. made a little logo. Hardy's uh Hardy's. vision. And you can see and sometimes. people are like face to face you it's. palpable. You know, and and and what I what I. always loved when people were cutting. weight is you got a far more genuine.

version of them than the version that. was I mean, even look at Conor, right? He was feral at 145. At 155 he was he. was cutting but he was on point. At 170. he was like. Right. >> feel great. Just a different three. different versions of the same person 10. lbs apart. >> Yeah. And when I fought Roy Markham, that was co-main event in my second. fight in London, um UFC 95, he arrived. fight week on the Tuesday at 195 to make. 171. And I knew that it was going to be. a rough weight cut for him.

>> guy. >> massive. And he'd never been the. distance, 16 and 4 he was, knocked. everybody out that he fought. And I was. Do you remember when he fought Was it. Brody Faber? Kicked him in the neck. And. like as he went down, he like crossed. his legs on the way down. That was at. the Palms. Yeah, no, I do remember that. >> That did him. It was brutal. But like. when we were we did the weigh-ins in a. theater in London, and obviously we're. all on our on weight. We've I've been on. weight since 2:00 as most people have. We've journeyed into London on the bus. Everyone's still on weight. No one's. drinking. And like you walk through the.

changing rooms in the back and we're in. like an old like West End theater. And like you can see where people are. at, what state they're at, how much. they've cut weight. And I remember. seeing Roy Markham just sitting there. just He would just look like he was. broken already. He was just so drained. and exhausted. So my thought to myself is I'm going to. get right in his face as soon as I. stepped off the scales. And I wanted him to feel that I wasn't. as depleted as he was the day before. because that would then be his memory. going into the fight on fight day is.

that he didn't cut as much as me. He. didn't feel like [ __ ] like I did. yesterday. Right. And like as I walked. onto the stage, I I'm standing on the. scales and I'm looking at him. I do. There's never a photograph of me looking. at the at the crowd and flexing. I'm. looking directly at him. And as soon as. they read my weight, I went straight. over, I put my forehead on his and I. tried to push him back a step or two. And that was because we were on weight. If that was a. a morning weigh-in and we were doing it. later in the day, it wouldn't have had. the same kind of impact, you know? >> would have already been replenished. He.

would have felt much better. Yeah. No, it's a good point. >> pushed. That's why I always wore contact. lenses as well. I always had the contact. lenses on the on the stage, you know? I. just didn't want people to see my eyes. I didn't want them to get a real version. of me until fight night. Yeah. You know? Yeah, emotional warfare. It's real. It's very important. I loved. it. I mean, I wasn't very good as a. fighter, you see? So, I had to lean on. what I could get. >> [laughter]. >> Look look look at the guys in my. division now. I mean, Jon Fitch, >> I know. Mike Swick was great. Josh. Koscheck, a bit of a prick, but great.

fighter. You know what I mean? Like, there were good guys in my division at. the time, and. man, I didn't have the wrestling to be. competing with a lot of those guys. >> Yeah, that's a giant factor, and that's. a factor that takes so long to catch up. to. Yeah. God, if you can ever, unless. you're like a real superior athlete, just a freak athlete, there's just like. someone's got a gymnastics background or. something who's like very explosive, it's so hard to pick up that that. wrestling later in your career. It's. like. that's what's so crazy about Pereira, is.

that he figured out how to just stuff. everything like from. multiple champion kickboxing career, where he didn't do any grappling at all. Lost his first MMA fight to submission. Really couldn't [ __ ] grapple at all. Gets together with Glover Teixeira and. just figured it out. But, I also think. with him, it's a freak athlete thing. For sure. Because it's the same reason. why he hit so hard. I think he's just. weirdly built. But but even even a freak. athlete though, you take him back 10.

years and you take Glover Teixeira away, and he he's not supplied with the. information where he can he can apply. that athleticism, right? And this is. where former fighters pass on our. knowledge, like we talked about. I mean, like we went Bas Rutten, Duane Ludwig, T.J. Dillashaw, right? >> Right. >> Like, Glover Teixeira to to Alex Pereira. is probably one of the best. relationships, because for me, Glover. Teixeira was he overachieved in his. career based on his age and his. athleticism compared to the people in. the division. The reason why was because his game was.

so solid and so sound. Mhm. Like, I I. say to young fighters, you need that. Glover to share a base level where you. can be semi-conscious, taking big shots, sweep to top position, take someone's. back and choke him out. Like Like he did. that consistently. He'd get dropped and. come back from the dead and and finish. people. Glover also missed six years of. his prime crazy cuz he couldn't get out. of Brazil. >> talking about him constantly before he. was signed. I remember that. I remember. hearing his name a lot because you were. Same with Pereira, you know, you you.

were talking about him before the UFC. signed him. But like if you'd imagine Glover. Teixeira. Sorry, Alex Pereira walked into a. an MMA gym in 2005, they would have probably tried to teach. him a whole system of jiu-jitsu. Right. >> And then he would have had a wrestling. coach that would have tried to teach him. folk style or freestyle wrestling. Whereas Glover Teixeira was like, "There's a lot of this [ __ ] you don't. need, brother. Like First of all, I'm. not going to teach you many submissions. cuz you're not really going to need. them." But he does know submissions. He's a jiu-jitsu black belt. >> But that's the thing is like is like.

does he know the whole database of. jiu-jitsu? Does he know everything that. a normal black belt would learn? And I'm. not discrediting his black belt, but. what I'm saying is his his game has been. very specifically tailored to be. effective in the arena in the arena that. he's fighting in. That's true. But it's. also the relationship that he has with. Glover, too, where it's a one really. elite coach with a world championship. level experience concentrating on a very. special athlete. Whereas if you're at. ATT, you know, you're there's [ __ ]. Chechens and [ __ ] Dagestanis and.

there's a room full of assassins and. there's five coaches and like I don't. know if you'd get that kind of attention. there, you know? There's two different. schools of thought. You know, there's the school of thought. that you need to be around those people. because that's a shark tank and that's. how you get better. You be around all. these killers. And then there's the. other school of thought is like, "No, you're better off at a very small gym. with a small group of people that really. concentrate on you." I'm more inclined. to think of the small gym. I think the. small gym with elite trainers is a.

better option than being in a giant I. mean it's not that ATT doesn't. create amazing world champion athletes. it certainly does. But I think if someone's coming up maybe. you're better off with someone like. first of all you'd have to find someone. like Glover who's really interested in. taking the time and really working with. you. Yeah. And Glover and you know going. back to what we're talking about earlier. like Glover's already gone through the. process of learning jiu-jitsu and. absorbing what's useful and rejecting a.

lot of what's useless. >> Yes. So he's not giving Pereira the. useless part of jiu-jitsu for MMA. Right. Right. Now. how much of how much of jiu-jitsu. specifically is is applied to MMA right? There are so many positions that it just. changes when you start to use punches. Things become a lot easier when you can. start to strike as well because you can. force people to do things they don't. want to do right? >> Right. Yep. So like. I feel like the refinement that Glover. Teixeira went through to be the great. fighter that he was is the reason why.

Pereira's become so successful because. he's been given the pieces that he. needs. I I would imagine that you know. if you rolled with him he would be a. real problem but I would imagine his. game still very direct. Like he's not. using crackhead control and he's not. rolling for knee bars and that kind of. thing. I just cuz But neither is Roger. Gracie. Of course. >> You know what I mean? But he's also gone. through the shedding process right? >> Yes. Well I don't think he ever really. uh. acquired all the crazy [ __ ] I think. there's a lot of these guys that like.

fundamentals are just like laser. focused. Like Rickson. Rickson was. always just laser focused fundamentals. Minotauro Nogueira laser focused. fundamentals. Do you think the do you. think the existence of vale tudo kind of. forced them to go very specifically to. what worked though for for no rules. contests? Probably there's probably some. of that because obviously Rickson. created and competed in vale very early. on. So, it's like.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh. I mean, a lot of stuff goes out the. window as soon as you punch, right? A. lot of stuff. >> Yeah, but including some heel hooks and. things like that. Like, there's certain. positions where you see guys in. jiu-jitsu tournaments like, "Boy, you. find yourself like that in a fight, that. guy's going to blast you in the face.". Like, you're in a back Like, you're. you're grabbing a hold of someone's leg. and your head is right here and you're. hooked like there's nothing stopping. someone from elbowing you or punching. you in the face. It's kind of nuts to. even pursue those. But, as long as.

there's no striking, boy, it's very. effective. >> Yeah. See, they they I I I often think. that I'm quite I feel very fortunate. that I came into martial arts before. MMA. And And the reason for that is because. the way that I learned martial arts was. not for sport, right? And this was an an observation. I've had recently where, you know, a. fighter just would fall apart if they. haven't done have a particular person in. their corner, right? My My martial arts. instructor back in the day, from when I. was six, was teaching me taekwondo or. teaching me martial arts, should I say,

for him not to be there cornering me, because I'm doing it for self-defense. There's no sport context. He's not. teaching me techniques that I can use. when he's there to coach me through a. street fight, right? He's trying to give. me the techniques that I need, so when. he's not there, I know what I'm doing, >> Yeah. >> right? Same thing with like spatial. awareness. Like, often. like, you know, when when I was in clubs. and I was fighting a lot back in the. day, my awareness of fire exits and. tables and that kind of stuff, it it. gives me a it gave me a similar.

awareness to how I can use the cage. against my opponent, which I feel is not. necessarily used as much as it could be. in in MMA these days. Like, there are. there are certain fighters they just. don't like how often do you see two. fighters up against a fence panel and. the whole cage is there and they're like. they're not No No one's using the. pressure that they could be using. Sometimes people circle themselves onto. the fence unnecessarily. But the idea of. being backed up against the wall is only. if you don't want people attacking you. from behind was my my perspective in a.

in a self-defense context. So, I think. the way that I learned martial arts. allowed me to kind of see it as a. um. in a more efficient way. Right? Like say. if for example, if I'd have learned. jujitsu, I wouldn't have wanted to use. jujitsu for a street fight because a lot. of street fights I got in it wasn't one. person. Right. So, I don't want to be in. side control or choking somebody out. while he's flying me in the head. Like. for me it was the efficiency of okay, here's a guy, here's a guy. You know. what I mean? Like like how quickly can I.

get through these people? Yeah. You. know? And I And I feel like that's. something that this is maybe where the. scoring criteria can be adjusted to so. we keep getting what we want out of the. sport. Cuz there are stagnant fights. They do slow down. People do start to. think, "Okay, this round, this round, this round." And there's not there's not. a an instigation for a conclusion built. into their game necessarily. But isn't. that also dependent upon matchups? Like. sometimes people just cancel each other. out skill-wise and that's just part of. the game. Absolutely. But usually the.

ones where they cancel each other out. skill- skill-wise are the are they. actually the more interesting fights. because whether it's grappling or. striking, it keeps moving. Almost always. it's when there's a dominant skill set. on one side and the other person just. can't deal with it. Like look at me. against. >> And Chimaev. Exactly. Me against GSP. Right. Like I I didn't have the skill. set to compete with him. Right. If I'd. have been able to wrestle, I'd have. forced him to strike. If I'd have been. better at jujitsu, I'd have maybe forced. him to to strike a bit more, right? But. because there was a way of him to.

completely taking me out my game, there. wasn't necessarily an an onus to to. instigate a conclusion to the fight. Right. >> So, almost always when you see one. person that is so dominant in wrestling. and the other person can't handle it, that's when the fights can sometimes be. quite stagnant. And my argument in those. scenarios is okay, well, yeah, you're. winning this with wrestling. You're. winning it with wrestling, but you're. not concluding it, right? Like, you're. going to get to the end and the judges. are going to go, well, yeah, you you. know, you you controlled him for more of.

the fight. >> Like the Khamzat Chimaev as well. >> Yeah. Like this is I mean I'd be. interested to get your thoughts on this. I think we should stop scoring control. in MMA. Right? Control is scored up against the. fence, right? Defense is not scored in MMA, right? Defense is its own reward, right? Control in my opinion is its own reward. If you're a a grappler and I'm a. striker, it's it's on you to take me into the. range that suits you. Right, but if. someone's taking someone down and. controlling them and working towards a.

submission, how do you quantify that? Because they might. not get it, but they're working towards. it. So so then if if you consider top. control as you would center control, right? When everything else is even, you go to octagon control as as one of. the latest scoring criteria when the. striking and the grappling everything's. even, then we move into okay, well, Octagon control's weird though, because. it's like. >> [sighs]. >> So octagon control could be you're in.

the center of the cage and you're. pressing the action. But what if you're. a counter striker? Like what if you're. Tyron Woodley versus Stephen Wonderboy. Thompson and you spend a lot of the time. just moving away. Like remember they. fought to a draw, right? Didn't they. fight to a draw in one of their fights? Yeah, but but that that was also that. was also I mean I and I don't. necessarily want to criticize Tyron, but. I don't really think Tyron liked. fighting. He spent a lot of time wearing. his back heel down against the fence. with the crowd booing in the. championship rounds. I never got the. impression that Tyron liked fighting. He. was just good at it. You know? That's.

interesting. And I know why why you'd. think that. I just I thought that that. was the style to beat Wonderboy. I think. that's the smart style to beat Wonderboy. because he didn't fight that style that. Darren Till. Well, Darren Till. absolutely blasted him, took him down, and got rid of him quick. For sure. >> But with with Wonderboy, you cannot stand in the middle of the. cage and kickbox that guy, cuz he's. doing weird [ __ ] He's doing things with. his legs you can't do. Like, and you. know, like if you see a guy like Raymond. Daniels or MVP, like.

So, wrestle him. You can't, yeah. So, wrestle him. Yeah, if you can. I I. I I hear what you're saying totally, but. but like say for example, in the Demian. Maia fight, he defended 26 takedowns in. that fight and went the distance, right? Right, but with the Wonderboy fight, he. rocked Wonderboy, and he had Wonderboy. hurt. Where Wonderboy didn't hurt him. Which is like because he forced. Wonderboy to be offensive instead of. countering. So, by making it boring, by. backing up.

Yeah, but but I I at the same time I. don't necessarily think I don't know if. that was a calculation of Tyron. I think. it was. You think? >> Yes, cuz he fought him that way the. second time as well. I think But I think. that was intimidation from what. Wonderboy could do on the feet and him. not wanting to waste energy trying to. take him down. >> think he was intimidated. I think he was. waiting. He was waiting for moments to. explode, because it's not like he was. timid when he blasted him and had him. rocked and hurt. I think he never made a. fan out of me, And and the thing is, what was. interesting is I had a similar. >> think you you were a fan after the. Darren Till fight? Oh, absolutely.

Right. Like and and same with the Robbie. Lawler fight, you know, that was an. incredible knockout. And this was the. thing that was frustrating is that he. had the capability to do that kind of. thing. And sometimes I just felt like he. he wants to play king of the hill. He. didn't want to be the smashing. champion that that other fighters did. You know what I mean? And and Well, you. know, you got to think like he had some. he had some fights that didn't go his. way as well. Strikeforce, the Nate. Marquardt fight. The Nate Marquardt. fight where he got KO'd, where Nate hit.

him with like a video game combination. with those elbows against the cage. Like. So, there's there's consequences to just. wait. And by the way, Nate Marquardt, boy, there's a guy that kind of. people forget how [ __ ] good that guy. was when he was in his prime. Woo! When. he went over to Strike Force, he was a. [ __ ] monster, dude. That guy was. good. He was good. You know, I had heard stories about him. training at in Colorado with GSP, with. all those guys like dude, Nate Marquardt.

[ __ ] everybody up. He was that good at. one point in time. >> Man, so many names of of fighters that. have just been kind of lost to time that. people don't realize that they were so. good. >> Yves Edwards, there's another one. I. talk about him all the time. There's a. point in time where Yves Edwards was the. best 155 pounder on the planet. Facts. Yeah, it's just like people forget. People forget how good people were. You. know, interesting the point you made. about counter strike and I've always. thought this about guard playing as. well. Like if you're a guard player, you've kind of got to accept that you're. losing until you win. Yeah. It's like. Machida was one of the best examples of.

a counter striker and then it you know, you say Adesanya against Paulo Costa. Paulo Costa was in the center of the. cage for most of that. Yeah. So, if. you're just looking at octagon control, well, you're you're going to score it's. Paulo cuz he was in the center. But, there was no doubt that Izzy was just. toying with him and lighting him up from. a distance. Yeah, but you couldn't say. octagon control cuz Izzy was landing all. his shots. >> But, but that's that's the thing is it. that that was a very very clear one, right? Where where you've got one person. moving back and giving the center of the. cage, but clearly winning on the.

striking. Whereas if when it gets very. even with the striking, you have to. really have good judges. to be able to pick apart who's landing. what. Yes. Even cuz like we had a fight. the other week, Jakub Kaczuba. Uh he was. fighting the Tanh Short and he was. backing up the whole fight, but he was. landing way more strikes than his. opponent. But, even when it got to the. end of the fight, I'm like, are these. judges going to score this right? Are. they cuz they don't have the stats that. we have on the screen in front of us, right? >> They should. Exactly, they should. But, but because they don't, are they going.

to they're going to go, "Oh, well, you. know, it was moving forward and we had a. fight. in Sioux Falls the other day where. the female fighter Shaianna Bowers was. pushing forward and she was landing, but. her opponent was backing up and. countering a lot of the shots. And the. judges scored it to Sabrina. It was you. know, it was the right decision to make, but the crowd didn't like it because. they felt like like the Bowers was the. one pushing forward and making a fight. out of it. Yeah, but that's casuals. Of. course, yeah, but it is it is a risky. thing to be a counter striker and a. guard player in MMA because you have to.

first of all credit the judges to see. what, you know, But who's left that's a. guard player? Not many, right? It's kind. of been cycled out of the game. >> Oliveira is like the best at it. >> But even that didn't work out for him in. sometimes, did it? There was a lot of. time he'd spend energy guard playing. Yeah, a lot of the time why, you know, good wrestlers decide not to wrestle. because the amount of energy it costs. >> That's true, but I mean like look what. he did to Gamrot and that was super. impressive. >> Gamrot's so good. >> So good. The fact that Gamrot was just. lost on the ground with Oliveira. Dude, Showed how good Oliveira is. Do you.

remember Gamrot's debut against Guram. Kutateladze? Both of those guys, he's in Karate. Combat now. Both of those guys are so. elite. And then when they got matched up. against each other in their UFC debut, I'm like, man, people aren't going to realize how good. this match up is, you know? Like. Tsarukyan, I called his debut against. against Makhachev. >> Like and he was 5% behind Islam in that. fight, but that 5% was, you know, incredible fight. Yeah. Yeah, um I am very curious to see how.

Pereira does against Ciryl Gane. Yeah. Ciryl Gane's a different thing. He just. moves differently for a big guy, doesn't. he? He's also a real heavyweight. There. ain't a [ __ ] time since he's been 15. where that guy's making 185. >> No. Right? That's a big man and he's an. incredible athlete and a really elite. striker. Like a really good striker. Like and a [ __ ] big heavyweight, man. Mhm. And I know Pereira weighs like 260.

now. I I get it. I get it. Yeah, he's a. heavyweight. Yep, definitely. But He was 185. >> 185 just a few years ago. And he was a. 185-lb champion and then the 205-lb. champion. And I don't think Ciryl Gane. could even make 205. >> No. Ciryl's big. >> Yeah. And he's big and [ __ ] thick and. and he's good, man. And I'm telling you. that Tom Hardy fight, excuse me, um. Tom Aspinall fight. Tom Hardy fight. Just. My my my mind sucks. Um the Tom Aspinall fight in that first.

round before the the eye pokes were. disgraceful. Like first of all, I think. Still got to fix the gloves. Oh, god. You know, my my solution is mittens. Why. why we don't do this anyway? Why why are. these why are these out like this? >> Yeah. Yes. Put a [ __ ] It's a good. point. The thing that annoyed me is like. they went through all the all that the. effort to fix the gloves, but they never. asked a fighter or a person that wraps. hands like what they actually thought. They were getting contender series. fighters to to grade them. And of. course, they're all like, "They're.

great. They've got UFC on them. I'm so. happy to be here." You know what I mean? Like you know, like talk to tape for. example. I'm like they must have asked. you about the hand wrapping, about the. gloves and stuff. Cuz the problem is, right? Like when you get there on. Tuesday and you try your gloves on, you're like, "Yeah, they feel good." And. then you get to fight night and they put. a quarter inch of padding underneath. Right. >> And then you try and then close your. hand. Right. And like the difference. between like the Pride gloves or the. Rising gloves or the like the Fairtex. I. always used to use Fairtex if I could. There's a there's a curve in the glove, right? Mhm. When when you try your.

gloves on, what the what the blue shirts. backstage do cuz they know the game is. they roll the glove up and then wrap it. with the Velcro of the wrist. So, it. stays rolled from Tuesday to Saturday. Right. >> And then when you get them on Saturday, they've kind of curved a little bit, right? But it's not the curve is not. built into the padding. Right. And the. the the the new ones that they made, there there was just too much technology. and not enough common sense in it. >> used Trevor Wittman's? I have.

Veronica's just got a pair of them. >> The best. >> They are very, very good. Absolutely. >> They're the best. >> But that's that's an ownership problem. though, isn't it? >> It is. I've tried to negotiate that and. broker that and maybe I still can be. successful. I talked to them. I talked. to to Trevor. Maybe it still can be done. But even. with Trevor's, the fingers are still. exposed. And I think there's certain. guys who just have this [ __ ] impulse. to do that. And I think one point every. time. >> Yes. Poke someone in the eye, one point. Every [ __ ] time. Because there's a.

lot of fighters that have never poked. anybody in the eye. Right? So how come? How come? They've been in wild scraps, never poked anybody in the eye. >> Yeah. I mean I watch I watch One. Championship, small gloves Muay Thai, and they are in range. >> Right. They're not poking each other. there. >> No, they're not. And by the way, I love. small gloves Muay Thai. >> cool. >> It's so good. It's so cool. >> And it's so interesting. And for all. these people that like hate when fights. go to the ground, my god, that's the. solution. And I've been trying to sell. this to the UFC forever. I'm like, [ __ ]. all this slap fight [ __ ] And I know.

you're really interested in Zu boxing, that's great. How about UFC striking? How about UFC Muay Thai? Be amazing. >> You know, like cuz and even kickboxing. what they're doing with One. You know, guys like Yuki Yoza and you know. >> Watch out for Ben Willows, have you seen. this guy? >> he's a beast, man. >> him to PFL a little while ago. Just. can't get him matched. Just couldn't get. him matched. >> People don't want to stand with him. Click on his on his Instagram and he's I. mean in my opinion, he's one of the best. strikers in the world right now. There's. just and and I've you know, he trained.

trained at Renegade for a long time with. the Edwards brothers and I would watch. him just play spar with people and the. level of trickery. Like that's where you. like go back to saying about dimensions, right? There are ranges in fights and. then there are dimensions in those. ranges. Yeah. And he's at like a Jedi. level of dimension of understanding of. striking. Mhm. And and to see him have. the success he has means stopping John. Lineker with calf kicks and you know. >> I know. Yeah. Very impressive. You're. going to see him go How is One doing? Are they Not good from what I can tell.

Yeah, that's what I've heard as well and. that concerns me because if we have more. limited options, that sucks, you know. >> This is why I mean and I've I you know, I feel very much like I'm in the right. place now with the PFL because. we need more organizations. Like we need. more organizations. Unfortunately, in my. opinion, the UFC is not the custodian of. the sport that we need right now. You know. >> Well, what do you think they're doing. wrong? I mean I I think I think it's a variety. of different things. I mean underpaying.

the fighters, killing the sponsorship. market. They they buried a lot of growth. of the subculture. You know, you. remember the old UFC Expos that we used. to do. I'd do like 5-6 hours a day. signing. Tapout over to Silver Star, over to Xyience and. like as soon as that was all killed off, a lot of that subculture died off. And. all those subcultures offer jobs outside. of. outside of fighting, you know. It allows. people to then start a brand and sponsor. some young fighters. Like. Charles Lewis, Mask.

paid me double what I was getting paid. for my purse when I was in Japan. Double just to wear Tapout shorts on a. on a in a tournament in Cage Force. Like. he didn't need to do that, but he was a. fan of the sport, he loved it and he. wanted to support it. And back in the. day, like I had sponsors like Earache. Records and stuff that was on my banner. Just a heavy metal brand from like my. local town. Um like the idea of being able to have. these personal sponsors that would help. you out was massive. Yeah. And then the.

other thing that the other issue that. we've got is that we don't have we don't. have enough events now for a lot of. fighters to get experience. So then a. lot of the people that get signed to. Contenders are like five, six, seven. fights into their career. I was talking. to this somebody about this the other. day and this this good clear examples. Like I was 19 and six when I joined the. UFC in 2028. Conor McGregor had already. built a brand and a and a. >> Wait a minute, you just said 2028. >> Sorry, 2008. 2008. Maybe there's a return on the. card. >> [laughter]. >> 2008. So I had I had I was like, are you.

a time traveler? I feel like I'm here a little bit with. the UFO. Um. Yeah, so in 2008. like. there was Where was I going? I lost my. train of thought. Uh sponsors. Sponsors, yeah. So like we had sponsors. There was. a subculture that was growing around the. brand. And there were there were there. were shows that that would host you long. enough for you to develop a brand. >> Right. So like I didn't have a nearly as. as big of a following as Conor McGregor. or Paddy Pimblett, but I had a similar.

platform, right? I was Cage Warriors. champ, then Conor was Cage Warriors. champ and he was an established fighter. with a game and a following before he. came to the UFC. >> with Paddy. We don't see that as much. anymore, right? We don't see the. fighters growing on their local scene. and building a local fan base that. really starts to grow the sport on a. grassroots level, you know? But but why. is that the UFC's responsibility? >> Oh I no, I'm not saying it I'm not. saying it is. What I'm saying is that. unfortunately I think the UFC is now. kind of paying for the the control that.

they took many years ago. because the industry has been stifled. around it. Like the sponsorship industry. for a start was massive, you know? And. and after The problem with it was there. was a lot of sponsors that weren't. paying. So that the lot of fighters. would wind up in lawsuits and there was. a lot of [ __ ] that was going on. There some of them were and it was. great. >> Yeah. You know, like uh you know, I'm. really good friends with Brendan Schaub. and there was uh a point in time where. he was making X amount for a fight but. he was making like three times that in. sponsors. Yeah. I mean I I doubled my.

show money on the GSP fight because of. my banner. I only got 22,000 for that. fight, but Which is crazy. Crazy. >> It's crazy. World title fight. But. that's what I signed up for. I wasn't. doing it for the money, you know what I. mean? But in hindsight, when I look at. it and GSP was getting I mean, you get. like 6 million. He spent quarter of a. million on his training camp. How could I compete? Like he would book. out a whole hotel and bring guys in from. New York. [snorts] I I had a I had Aldo. in my corner, who at the time was a. brown belt, you know, I. you know, and I had a Thai boxing coach. that was telling him me to knee him in.

the head on the ground from bottom. position, you know? Like bless him, he. just didn't know the rules. I I didn't. have the support network cuz I just I. couldn't afford what I would have really. needed for that, you know? But if I if I go back to it if you know, what's I mean, the the sponsorship. process was interesting because the. first thing they did was they brought in. the fees that the sponsorship companies. had to pay. So it was like, if you're a. clothing brand, you have to pay $50,000. a year to sponsor UFC fighters, and that. goes to the UFC. Now, before that, as long as it wasn't.

offensive and it wasn't a conflicting. sponsor, the UFC would take it and. carry on. Condom Depot. Oh, man. >> Remember that? >> No, awful. I. >> [laughter]. >> I turned them down a few times. But like, if you think about it, like. say Ecko Unlimited, right? They they. couldn't afford to pay the UFC $50,000. They would pay me 300 pounds to have a. the thing on my banner, right? Right. So. then, as soon as you bring in this okay, everybody has to pay 50,000 to be a. sponsor in the UFC cage, almost all of.

the sponsors then fell out the market. straight away. And then you've only got. a few that are lingering. And then, if. you're a. if you're a clothing distributor, if you. sell a variety of different brands, it. was $100,000 that you had to pay. Yeah. Right? So if you're MMA Warehouse and. you're sponsoring Alistair Overeem, and. your sponsorship budget for the year is. $250,000, and straight away 100 grand's been taken. out because the UFC needed it. Just your. pool's gone down. So you've got less. money to give to the fighters, and then. you're sponsoring less fighters overall.

I get that. I get that argument and I. definitely agree about fighter pay. Like. I'm always in favor of fighters getting. paid more. It's very dangerous job and. it's the only thing that people are. paying to see. They're not paying to. look at the cage. They're not paying to. look at the ring card girls. They're not. paying to hear me talk. They're paying. to watch the fights. Fighters should get. the majority of the money. And it is a. problem when they don't have the. leverage and I think that it's great. that you have things like MVP getting. involved with the Netflix card. I wish the card was a little stronger, but it's difficult. Like like.

Lennox fighting against Francis Ngannou. Like you know, you need like who who the. [ __ ] is even available. that's not signed to a contract that you. can get Francis to fight. >> Yeah. That's not a god damn execution, you know? You know, Francis is the. legitimate heavyweight champion of the. world. >> Absolutely. And the thing is the. heavyweight division is always going to. be more of a victim of the underpayment. than any other industry. Is Francis no. longer with the PFL? >> No. How did that what happened there? I just think it was I just think it was.

a bad deal done by the previous. ownership by the previous CEO. Oh, it. was a previous CEO? >> Yeah. So So I'm not aware. So he fought. Handen Ferreira in that one fight. Yes. Is that the only fight that he had in. the PFL? >> yeah. That's kind of crazy. >> Yeah. It was just I mean it was it was a. bad deal for the PFL. And we've done a. lot of we've done a lot of bad bad deals. back in the. >> guy that just knocked out Handen. Ferreira? Oh, Sergey Bilostenniy. Woo! Used to train with Fedor and uh. Woo! That guy is [ __ ] legit.

>> Yeah. And very very fast. Like him v Tom. Aspinall's an interesting fight. That is. an interesting. >> anybody is interesting. >> Cyril Gane moves a lot like Cyril Gane, but he's got [ __ ] background and That. guy is legit. I watched that Ferreira. fight and I was like, holy [ __ ]. >> head around, didn't he? >> Yeah, dude. And you know, I mean this. this cat. Pull this up. Here we go. Look at this. guy. I mean moves like Fedor, too. He. trained with Fedor, which is. interesting. >> Yeah. Yes, you want to get through to. the third.

Yeah, that's that little body shot. So, third round was the the finish. But, it just looks so dominant shot. He. looked so dominant like throughout the. fight, man. Like right away. He's a. beast. >> This kid is very, very legit. Oh my. goodness. The speed. >> Yeah. So, the world needs another [ __ ] big. heavyweight, man. And this is this is. awesome that this guy exists. What's his. name again? Sergei Bilostenniy. I just. saw this yesterday. I'm guilty of not. watching enough PFL.

Um, but the thing is it's like the. fights are legit. The the talent is. legit, but man, it is just not getting. the attention that it deserves. Look, the thing is as a as a UFC fan, I get. it, right? Because you want to watch one. promotion where all the fights is. awesome, so you can find out who the. best is, cuz that's what ultimately it. was about, right? It was about finding. out who's the best. >> Listen, man, that guy could kind of. compete with anybody. Of course. Of. course. Absol- And we've got guys that. can across the sport. I mean, you know, across the across the the promotion we.

have. I mean, you know, Dakota, Thad. Jean, you know, we've got some real, real good fighters. And even in like we. are if you've not watched Lewis. McGrillen Dean Garnett, it is one of the. best fights you'll ever see. There were. 13 knockdowns in it. It was carnage. >> [laughter]. >> But, then we're also seeing really. interesting things like like the. Scottish Twister. Have you seen the. Scottish Twister, right? So, that was. Stevie Ray, who hit it against Pettis, and then he hit it against Lewis Long in. the in Glasgow, and then he's passed it.

on to Jake Hadley, and then Jake. Hadley's just submitted Mateus Mattos. with it. And it's fascinating, cuz it's kind of a. twister. Uh-huh. It's like it it's it's. >> Have you tried it? >> Yeah. >> Yeah? >> I I struggle with it. >> So, here it is. >> But, look at this. The key is the foot. in the thigh. It's like an offside. triangle. You can see that that right. foot is just hooked in. Uh-huh. And he's. going to threaten with an arm triangle. He's kind of holding Matos here. There's. a bit of a hand fight going on. He's. going to keep hitting Matos and he's. going to Matos is going to go to an arm. triangle position. Then he's going to.

start to try and force that that right. elbow down, so he's not in an arm. triangle and turn into the body. triangle. But that right foot caught in. his thigh doesn't allow him to turn. fully into the guard. So, look at this. how he turns in, clears the head, and. there's the crank. Look at the foot on. the inside of the thigh. >> nasty. So, that is I mean I've I've had. this done to me as well as I've done it. So, you've got you've got compression. into the neck, pressure into the lower. back, your hips being lifted off the. >> Yeah. It's a horrible submission. >> It looks horrible. And oh, this is a the.

cheesecake assassin demo in it. Interesting. But it like and this is. this is what's fascinating still to me. about MMA is that I still feel like this. technology is that we're not we've not. yet discovered. The calf kick of being a. good example, Scottish twister being. another good example. What comes next? Like Right. There's going to be some. [ __ ] I've got books and books of. martial arts books and I feel like if I. dug, I might find something, but. >> Yeah, I don't know what's missing. Um here's something that I think might. be missing. Front leg roundhouse kick to the face.

Mhm. Guys who are fast with that, I used. to see that a lot in Taekwondo. I used. to see that a lot. There's guys that get. They just throw it out there like a jab. and if it hits you in the face, you're. [ __ ] And we've seen it a few times in. MMA. We've seen a few guys get dropped. We. saw Rose Namajunas and Zhang Weili. You. just don't see it very often and man, if. you're good at that, if you have a fast. one, that is a devastating kick. >> Yeah. See, that that is a good example.

cuz that's a great technique and a great. setup. >> Mhm. Because the reason why the head. kick landed was because she she just. landed an inside low kick. >> Yes. So, Weili had pulled her lead leg. back and pitched her head forward. Yeah. Beautiful set. I totally agree with you. I think there's a lot that's still to be. discovered. It's just stunning to me how. few people get cracked with that. I mean. I feel like that was a major weapon when. I was doing taekwondo. A lot of people. use that. >> Yeah. Crescent kick as well. Oh yeah. There's a few guys that use that still. Anderson used that a few times. Yeah.

There's a cat. I'm so sorry man I forget your name but. there's this dude who's got a video on. Instagram where he knocks this guy out. with an inside crescent kick to the. face. There's a few people that are pulling it. off, you know? Yeah. There's There's definitely more to. come. There's definitely a lot more. There There are a lot more techniques. that I also think there're going to be a. lot more. targets on the body that can be. exploited that we're not yet exploring, you know? Well, a lot of the guys in in. kickboxing in particular in one are. using that toe kick to the body.

>> Yes. Apchagi. There's There's this cat. Yes. What is his name, Jamie? I've. actually congratulated this guy. I. apologize, sir. Cuz I I went back and forth with him. Jason Barry. Is that what I just said? Back it up a little bit. Before that. Before that. Before that. See look at. those Cage Warriors gloves. >> Justin Barry. Justin Barry. That's it. Look at the curve in those Cage Warriors. gloves. Mhm. So they're they're. basically a They're They're either.

They're either Fairtex gloves or they're. a copy of the Fairtex gloves. >> he does that. I mean it's crazy. That's. slick, isn't it? >> Crazy. Very cool. Crazy. Yeah, Cage. Warriors is another great organization. that's really producing elite talent. There's just I agree with you there's. not enough of them. But it's like what does the PFL have to. do to get more attention? You know, cuz. it seems like they're throwing a lot of. money at fighters. Like there's that Is. that million dollar thing still. happening? >> No, we've got rid of the tournament. We. We've gone to regular shows now. So we. have main and co-main. We've got. rankings now done by Combat Registry.

They don't have all the crazy point. system where you like No, all that's. gone. That didn't make any sense. I'll. be honest. I love the PFL but PFL's been. its own worst enemy for many many years, right? We've got We've got a new CEO, John Morgan, who's He's been on Ariel's. show a couple of times. He does great. interviews. He. He loves the sport from a fan's. perspective. Doesn't know it quite as. much as as other people, but. he's he's making the right moves and. making the right decisions. Previously, I mean, I loved Don Davis, but he was. like Willy Wonka of MMA. He was like,

"I've got a great idea. Let's do this.". And blah blah. And then he had Pete. Murray who just was consistently making. bad deals and bad decisions. >> were like, "What?" I didn't understand. any of it. >> was running PFL Europe for for a couple. of 3 years. I I I stepped in at the end. of 2022 as commentator. In 2023, I. became the head of. uh head of fight drops for Europe. So, I. was doing all the signing and. matchmaking. I mean, I had four shows a. year, but. I mean, it was it was a a passion. project for me to sign all these young. guys and match them. And my argument was.

every single And I always used to say. this to the fighters cuz remember when. Dana used to do this back in the old. weigh-in days where he'd get all the. fighters, no cornermen, no coaches, just. translators and the fighters. Mhm. And. we'd gather in one of the changing rooms. in the arena. And Dana give us this. speech, and it it was stirring. Like, we're all there to murder each other, but for for like 5 minutes, we all felt. like we were in it together. Mhm. And I. I loved that feeling. I missed it. Even. walking out, we're like fist-bumping. each other and we're hyped. And that's. where he'd announce the bonus amounts.

and stuff. >> Yeah. So, I would do that with PFL. Europe. I'd gather all the fighters. together, and I'm like, "Look, there's. not a single fighter on this card that. has been matched for one person to win. Every single person stepping into the. cage has got a a fair chance of winning. Your destiny is in your hands, [snorts]. right?". And with PFL Europe, I was able to to. build a good roster and and and to to. I mean, we had some fantastic shows. But. when I first inherited it, we had four. tournaments, right? So, I had to sign 16. fighters. Sorry, eight fighters per.

weight class. So, I had 32 fighters on. my roster that was done already before. the year started. And then I'm having to. get loads of different flags. So, we're. going into a place and I've got a bunch. of fighters on the card that I don't. need that aren't going to sell any. tickets. And it was just working against. me constantly. So, I pushed to go down. to two tournaments and have just a. normal MMA show for the rest of it. And. that worked out well, but. they they just they love the tournament. format because it was a distinguishing. factor. And the question is, you know, what do we have to do to.

uh to to to make a difference? Like I. mean, I think we are doing those we are. making those moves. We have to make more. content, tell the fighters' stories. better, for sure. Maybe you guys should. start a [ __ ] Muay Thai small gloves. >> it. Or maybe like the UFC is [ __ ] up. with that. I've I sent Dana all these. different fights. I send him all these. is um. Imangadzhi Aliev, that dude, Asadulla. Imangadzhi Aliev. Holy [ __ ] is that guy. good? I'm like, "Look at this. Like, this is what people want to see, man.".

Like, everybody. boos when the fights go to the ground if. it gets boring. This shit's never. boring. Yeah. Maybe you guys should pick. up the slack. 100% look, it's I mean, I've I've thrown hundreds of ideas on. the table. I always am, you know. >> That might be the move, man. >> well That might be what differentiates. >> Yeah, I think so. Because look how big. it is with one. I mean, it's essentially. become most of their fights now. Yeah. And it's accommodating fighters that. have got two or 300 fights in another. discipline that don't want to learn how. to wrestle or grapple, but they are the. elitist of elite strikers.

>> And so easy to translate. Like, everybody knows what's going on. >> Yeah. A kick to the face is a kick to. the face. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I agree with you. I mean, I think but I'm I'm always throwing. ideas at the PFL. The one that stuck was. introducing elbows. Like, when I first. started working with the PFL, we didn't. have elbows because crazy. >> Crazy. >> Like, and I hated it. You know, and I'm. like Well, it's pride. They've Yeah. >> Pride didn't have elbows. >> Yeah. Did Bellator? Bellator had elbows. So, what the [ __ ] Well, see that was my. that was my selling point. That was the. way I got I managed to convince them. I. said, "Okay, right. We've taken on.

Bellator now. We've inherited Bellator. and and everything that goes with. it, right? >> Yeah. How but well, this is how I. pitched it to them, right? One of my. biggest opponents was Ray Sefo. Like, he. did not want elbows added in and I could. not get my head around it cuz he's. always coaching elbows from the corner, right? Why didn't he want elbows? I'm. not sure. I couldn't I couldn't get my. head around it. But but the thing that. pushed it over the line was me going, "Okay, right. We've just in- we've just. taken on Bellator, right? We've got. Bellator and we've got PFL. Imagine in a world where we now apply.

PFL rules to Bellator. What are the fans. going to say? They're going to be like, "Well, that'd. be terrible. They'd hate it because. you're taking elbows out." I'm like, "You've illustrated my point. Exactly. So, clearly that's not the right way to. go. So, then we need elbows.". >> Well, I'm glad they listened to you cuz. that's ridiculous. Yeah. You know what. really needs to happen is knees to the. head on the ground. 100%. Absolutely. >> It's crazy that someone could just. huddle in a turtle position and and not. get pummeled. Like, you shouldn't be in. that position. The only thing I can do. without, and I loved it in Pride and I. wanted to fight in Pride for the soccer.

kicks as well. That's the only thing I. would I would I I can reasonably do. without. And the reason why No ring. The. ring is different. You can move. Yeah. The problem with being planted into the. cage and then stomped or soccer kicked. >> For sure. Remember Wes Sims Frank Mir? Oh, I do. >> Stomped him, yeah. Yeah. The the the. thing with and I've and I've watched. every single Pride fight that's ever. existed, I'm sure. I only ever see people getting vollied. in the head when the fight's already. pretty much done. Right. Right. So, it. it's. >> Melvin Manhoef and Sakuraba. Exactly.

It's like the it's like the icing on the. cake that we don't necessarily need when. you can just hit them with one more. shot. Right. And they tried something in. Cage Rage if you when Cage Rage existed. back in the day where the referee would. decide. that you could stomp on or kick them in. the head. >> me ask you this. What do you think about. sidekicks to the knees? I don't mind it. The problem with that is it's one shot. and you're out for a year. But then heel. hooks are just as dangerous, aren't. they? >> But they're not cuz you can tap. You can tap and you can hold on to the. arms before it gets to that position.

You can tap. The thing about the sidekick to the. knee, like um. um what's his face? Um Cleo Roundtree. Yeah, but the the guy Modestas Modestas. Bukauskas. When you watch his knee go. sideways like that, you're like, "Good. lord." Like you're done for a year, if. you're ever the same again. I I mean we. I know I know Shavkat's in a similar. situation right now, isn't he as well? >> can't hit to the back of the head. But. you do hit to the back of the head. Cuz if it's a roundhouse kick and it. goes over the shoulder, guess where it. lands. >> Absolutely. Yeah. See that but the thing.

is, the back of the head is more. protecting from the bottom of the base. of the of the skull downwards, isn't it? That's where. >> throws a roundhouse kick and it goes. over the shoulder, >> Yeah. it's going. right to the back of the head. >> how many football players in a season. are taken out with a low tackle? I mean. it's the same in rugby as well. It's. like for me, that is a that is a risk of. the sport. That is that is a part of the. But it's a victory with an illegal move. that we all allow. It is it's only. illegal because you can't strike to the. knee. But then but No, no, no. Back of.

the head kick. Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. >> what I'm saying? The back of the head. kick, you win by knockout and you. shouldn't have hit them there. Yeah, but then but then also you've got. to go into well, did they turn their. head? What was the circumstance of it, etc. etc. I mean the thing like you. can't in the rules you can't strike. joints, right? But then it was the same. thing when we had elbows and I'm like. we're doing shows in France and I'm. saying to the French commission, we. don't have elbows. And they're like, "Okay, so where where does the elbow. start and where does the you know, where. where is it where is the forearm,

right?" But the thing about like. attacking the knees, you would have to say, "Well, it's got. to be a straight kick where you. hyperextend the knees." Because you. can't say don't leg kick the knees, cuz. you're going to be able to leg kick the. back of the knee always. That's If you. take that out, you're taking out a giant. chunk of all techniques. Cuz but the sidekick to the knee, the. problem with that is is going to ruin. careers. Like there's a lot of guys that are just. not the same. Thiago Silva, I I don't. think he was ever the same after the Jon. Jones fight. In my mind, it's the game we play. I. agree with you.

>> Right? I I see your point. I see it. >> No one's dying from a knee injury. >> It's very unusual, too. It's like the. Modestas fight was one fight that we can. name, and Khalil's obviously a very. elite striker. Yeah. But Yeah. I I I. don't mind it. I genuinely don't. I. mean, I like I'm I'm more interested in. making sure the fights are protected. when they can't protect themselves. That's That's where we need to raise. everyone's understanding of what's. happening. Yeah. You know. >> with you. Well, listen, brother. Um. always good to talk to you. We should do. this more often. >> absolutely. Set up every 6 years. We.

should, yeah. We're back in Austin soon, though. We're back in Austin soon. We're. going to be in July. We're Johnny. Eblen's fighting Costello van Steenis in. the rematch. What When When When in. July? Uh July 19th, Saturday. Saturday, July 19th. Is that the right day? >> [ __ ]. >> You're in. >> I'm out of town. I know where you are. Damn it. I'm out of town. Yeah, I know. I know where you are. I'll be there. >> [laughter]. >> You'll be there? Yeah, I think I'll be. there. Okay. Well, we'll talk about it. afterwards. I don't know what we're. talking about. Yeah, we'll talk about. it. Yeah. But But [laughter] that's But. yeah, Johnny Eblen Costello van Steenis. is. >> That's too bad. I want to see that.

[ __ ]. >> Yeah. And And And I will I will say like. for me, our middleweight division is. probably the most competitive with the. UFC's middleweight division. With Johnny. Eblen's a bad [ __ ]. >> Like Costello van Steenis, the current. champ. Did you watch that fight? >> No. So, Johnny Eblen, undefeated in 17, 18 fights, was beating the brakes off. Costello van Steenis. >> in the last 10 seconds. Yes, I did see. that. Yes, that's right. >> So, they've So, Costello's defended his. belt. He beat Fabian Edwards, Travis. Browne's elbows. And then. Johnny Eblen just ragdolled Brian Battle.

like it was nothing. >> that, too. >> Yeah. Now, he's a beast, dude. >> Well, now they those two boys are going. to rematch Austin at the Moody Center. middle of July. It's going to be a good fight. >> I was here. Me, too. All right. Thank. you, brother. Very very good to see you, always. Uh. Dan Hardy, what's your Instagram? >> Dan Hardy MMA. Dan Hardy MMA. All right. >> [music]. >> Bye, everybody. >> [music].